So let me see if I get this straight: Ross is not talking about the far right, but the right in general.
So without religion, the right is tribal, cruel and very dark.
I can't quite believe I'm seeing a conservative write this, so I want to quote it again:
"The right...[is] tribal, cruel and very dark [without religion."
Just letting that sink in.
I'm waiting for the follow up column, declaring that liberals without religion are... multicultural, kind and filled with Light.
So without religion, the right is tribal, cruel and very dark.
I can't quite believe I'm seeing a conservative write this, so I want to quote it again:
"The right...[is] tribal, cruel and very dark [without religion."
Just letting that sink in.
I'm waiting for the follow up column, declaring that liberals without religion are... multicultural, kind and filled with Light.
45
Can we please get over this nonsense that churchgoing people are better than nonchurchgoing people and certainly better than atheists? Some of us don't need the threat of hell or of a punitive Great White Alpha Male in the Sky in order to live a moral life. We just do it. Oh, and we don't need a Get Out of Jail Free card either....because we just behave ourselves naturally.
109
Wall between Church and State: High and strong.
I will settle for NOTHING else in a pluralistic society. Otherwise we creep toward religious war an one faith takes claims of primacy.
And yes, I hope for a secular future where religion and atheism are protected but not enforced as part of governance, ever. As a Virginian, I've good company in Thomas Jefferson here.
I will settle for NOTHING else in a pluralistic society. Otherwise we creep toward religious war an one faith takes claims of primacy.
And yes, I hope for a secular future where religion and atheism are protected but not enforced as part of governance, ever. As a Virginian, I've good company in Thomas Jefferson here.
62
The right is already cruel, tribal and very dark indeed. They selected Donald Trump as their nominee and you can't get much darker than that.
74
I like the image at the top of your column. There is a quote often ascribed to Sinclair Lewis, "When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and waving a cross." The evangelicals will have a lot to answer for. Don't kid yourself, they know exactly what they're doing. They need to be condemned, not defended.
100
Amazing how Douthat mourns for every unborn fetus, which according to St. Thomas Aquinas is only a potential human person, while never considering the "unique human life" of women.
87
Ross,
Your last paragraph is so true. But for the rest of your philosophical gyrations? Nyah. There is really only one question: "How can you be a Christian and support a rapist, bigot, bully?" That's it. That's as deep as it goes. All the rest is religious hypocrisy. And it makes the case for agnosticism beautifully.
Your last paragraph is so true. But for the rest of your philosophical gyrations? Nyah. There is really only one question: "How can you be a Christian and support a rapist, bigot, bully?" That's it. That's as deep as it goes. All the rest is religious hypocrisy. And it makes the case for agnosticism beautifully.
75
Douthat's reasoning and writing are irrelevant, shallow, and just mush. Anyone with the least critical reasoning could see all along that the religious right is a tribal movement, more interested in retained privilege that compassionate ministry. Why the NYT keeps printing this guy is beyond me.
83
You're saying that without the religious right, the door is opened to something worse, as if the choice is only A or B. How about neither? Surely there is an option C or D etc that is inclusive and acceptable.
39
Ross Douthat again.
He wants to make you feel better by making you think the religious right is not an electoral threat. He is wrong. His doesn't have his facts straight. They are powerful, they were powerful, and they still are powerful. Are they as big as media bone heads like David Brooks claimed? Not they are not. But when 5 million evangelicals get off their duff and vote for GW Bush in 2004, that helps him get elected, of course, and Bush gay baited them off the couch and into the voting booth. Evangelicals remain a crucial demographic proping up the decrepit Republican Party and the facts bear me out on that. Read the work of expert J. C. Green on this and you'll see for yourself. The Christian Right is supplying crucial help to Trump in this election, yet Douthat absolves of them sins by saying they prefer Cruz? Cruz is another nut case make no mistake about it. And Cruz couldn't crazy himself into the nomination, the Christian Right snapped like a shark at the Supreme Court Nominations bait Trump hurled to them. Oh they're worried about abortion? Come on Douthat, supporting Trump puts the lives of every born and unborn creature on this earth in danger, not just the unborn. And this is a piece of theocracy to control women's body. John Locke: there is a right of personhood, and it gives each person full control over her own body. You take that away and you take away women's freedom and fundamental right of property in their own person.
He wants to make you feel better by making you think the religious right is not an electoral threat. He is wrong. His doesn't have his facts straight. They are powerful, they were powerful, and they still are powerful. Are they as big as media bone heads like David Brooks claimed? Not they are not. But when 5 million evangelicals get off their duff and vote for GW Bush in 2004, that helps him get elected, of course, and Bush gay baited them off the couch and into the voting booth. Evangelicals remain a crucial demographic proping up the decrepit Republican Party and the facts bear me out on that. Read the work of expert J. C. Green on this and you'll see for yourself. The Christian Right is supplying crucial help to Trump in this election, yet Douthat absolves of them sins by saying they prefer Cruz? Cruz is another nut case make no mistake about it. And Cruz couldn't crazy himself into the nomination, the Christian Right snapped like a shark at the Supreme Court Nominations bait Trump hurled to them. Oh they're worried about abortion? Come on Douthat, supporting Trump puts the lives of every born and unborn creature on this earth in danger, not just the unborn. And this is a piece of theocracy to control women's body. John Locke: there is a right of personhood, and it gives each person full control over her own body. You take that away and you take away women's freedom and fundamental right of property in their own person.
57
Here's what you don't get. No one is stopping you from worshipping as you choose. No one is forcing your wife to get an abortion. No one is forcing your church to marry same sex couples to each other. You are welcome to believe that Christianity and capitalism are the same thing. You are welcome to believe that divorced people should not receive communion. You can recite all the Catholic nonsense against contraception to your heart's content. What you are not welcome to do in the US is to push your particular religious beliefs on me. But like so many right wing Christianists that's what you believe your religion calls on you to do.
You say you believe in the sanctity of life. But for you that sanctity ends with birth. Universal health care? That's socialism and unchristian in your world. Abortion is unthinkable but forcing a child who was raped to carry a fetus to term is "Christian." One of my children has to take a particular medicine that has as a side effect terrible birth defects. In your cruel church she and her husband would not be able to use birth control or have an abortion if her birth control failed. So frankly, I'm not sad in the least that the theocrats are on the losing side for now. I take a certain schadenfreude as I watch in amazement as they twist and turn trying to justify voting for a man with all the moral standards of a cockroach. Come to think of it, I think I'm insulting cockroaches.
You say you believe in the sanctity of life. But for you that sanctity ends with birth. Universal health care? That's socialism and unchristian in your world. Abortion is unthinkable but forcing a child who was raped to carry a fetus to term is "Christian." One of my children has to take a particular medicine that has as a side effect terrible birth defects. In your cruel church she and her husband would not be able to use birth control or have an abortion if her birth control failed. So frankly, I'm not sad in the least that the theocrats are on the losing side for now. I take a certain schadenfreude as I watch in amazement as they twist and turn trying to justify voting for a man with all the moral standards of a cockroach. Come to think of it, I think I'm insulting cockroaches.
110
No nation needs a religious right.
Secular Sweden. where less than 20% of the people believe in God, does more on a per-capita basis for the poor, the disadvantaged and the displaced (now from Syria) than any explicitly religious nation.
If you need religion to do the right thing, you are doing it wrong.
Secular Sweden. where less than 20% of the people believe in God, does more on a per-capita basis for the poor, the disadvantaged and the displaced (now from Syria) than any explicitly religious nation.
If you need religion to do the right thing, you are doing it wrong.
76
A thoughtful and compelling column, Ross, thank you. There is much in it I can respect, and some things I even agree with. However, you lost me at this point: "...asking them to cooperate not only with pro-abortion policy-making, but also their own legal-cultural isolation."
I couldn't help wondering if I would have laughed out loud at this ludicrous whining - as I did - were I not a gay man. "Legal-cultural isolation"?
I can only answer, Oh, boo-hoooooo!
I couldn't help wondering if I would have laughed out loud at this ludicrous whining - as I did - were I not a gay man. "Legal-cultural isolation"?
I can only answer, Oh, boo-hoooooo!
17
Ross, you rose to defend hypocrites. The evangelicals who didn't support Trump would be voting for Cruz now if Ted had won the GOP primary. Cruz may not have molested ten women, but he would just as surely bring the country to theocratic ruin as The Donald. Don't forget: when you want to govern the country under God's Law, the question arises: which God?
31
There is another important reason:
"There is no doubt that America's "Evangelical Christians" (i.e., "Christian Zionists") not only support Israel in its totality, but also even seem to welcome an all-out War in the Middle East to "hasten" (or "accelerate") the climate for the realization of "end-time" events long prophesied. ...
Fundamentalist Christians (such as Baptists, especially the Southern Baptists, Pentecostalists, such as the Assemeblies of God, Foursquare Churches, Full Gospel Churches, and all other denominations of the so-called "born-again", "Evangelical" beliefs), believed that the generation that would witness the re-establishment of Israel would also be the generation that would witness the Second Coming of Jesus and the consequent establishment of His Millenial Reign on earth from Israel.
Thus they are all part of the growing and influential "Christian Zionists", which definitely played a major role in the growth of America's so-called Neo-Conservative ("Neo-Cons") movement of recent years."
http://www.rense.com/general72/ssome.htm
http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/jesus-christs-return-to-earth/
Obviously many evangelical candidates must think that Trump is the best man "to bring it on"!
"There is no doubt that America's "Evangelical Christians" (i.e., "Christian Zionists") not only support Israel in its totality, but also even seem to welcome an all-out War in the Middle East to "hasten" (or "accelerate") the climate for the realization of "end-time" events long prophesied. ...
Fundamentalist Christians (such as Baptists, especially the Southern Baptists, Pentecostalists, such as the Assemeblies of God, Foursquare Churches, Full Gospel Churches, and all other denominations of the so-called "born-again", "Evangelical" beliefs), believed that the generation that would witness the re-establishment of Israel would also be the generation that would witness the Second Coming of Jesus and the consequent establishment of His Millenial Reign on earth from Israel.
Thus they are all part of the growing and influential "Christian Zionists", which definitely played a major role in the growth of America's so-called Neo-Conservative ("Neo-Cons") movement of recent years."
http://www.rense.com/general72/ssome.htm
http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/jesus-christs-return-to-earth/
Obviously many evangelical candidates must think that Trump is the best man "to bring it on"!
18
I only wish that conservative Christians were more Christian, that they would more closely attend to the words of the New Testament which they attribute to Jesus Christ himself: "Blessed are the meek; they shall inherit the earth". The fundamental attitude of every spiritual tradition worth following is that of humility.
17
To those religious conservatives who are concerned about abortion.
If a madman like Trump is elected, God forbid, we will all be faced with the real possibility of a Third World War.
What will you be saying about the unborn then?
Nothing, because you will be dead, along with the reset of the human race.
Better to elect Hillary. At least then you'll still be alive and you can work towards trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with.
If a madman like Trump is elected, God forbid, we will all be faced with the real possibility of a Third World War.
What will you be saying about the unborn then?
Nothing, because you will be dead, along with the reset of the human race.
Better to elect Hillary. At least then you'll still be alive and you can work towards trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with.
19
Read The Myth of A Christian Nation by Pastor Greg Boyd.
9
I am frankly incensed by what the evangelical religious right has gotten away with calling Christian values. If Christ walked up to some of them in a dark alley and smacked them in the head with a copy of the New Testament, they literally wouldn't know what hit them.
40
To suggest that religion is the only source of transcendence is just silly. And it isn't worthy of a cosmopolitan newspaper. Surely there's a job at the Kansas City Star for this writer.
35
This nonbeliever stands and cheers for Ross. Now retired, I spent 35 years as a political activist, sponsored a few winning tax revolts and elected, as an (independent ) libertarian. Through it all, my strongest supporters were Christian conservatives. They knew my atheism -- they always ask! -- but didn't care. As we described each other, I saw they didn't support the Falwells and Robertsons so openly feared by Goldwater, and ignored by Reagan. But nobody else was defending their CORE values, The war on Christianity is overblown to manipulate, like the war on police, for but there are indeed barriers.
All they wanted was a voice in the community, no greater than anyone else -- the rank-and-file, not the manipulators. once in office, I got many of them on advisory boards and commissions. They'd laughed when I suggested they stop talking about Jesus Christ everywhere, but they did stop doing it. Anti-religious bigotry is wrong, but stop giving them ammunition. Keep your faith-based talk among yourselves.
(It helps to know, and describe, Christ's Sermon on the Mount. "Pray in a closet" is a minor part of it. The message was to stop making a public spectacle of your religion ... like the hypocrites. If you do good, God will know, he said. (duh) Very few of them REALLY opposed Separation, because their own denomination had been persecuted.
Thanks, Ross, for adding to my arsenal.
All they wanted was a voice in the community, no greater than anyone else -- the rank-and-file, not the manipulators. once in office, I got many of them on advisory boards and commissions. They'd laughed when I suggested they stop talking about Jesus Christ everywhere, but they did stop doing it. Anti-religious bigotry is wrong, but stop giving them ammunition. Keep your faith-based talk among yourselves.
(It helps to know, and describe, Christ's Sermon on the Mount. "Pray in a closet" is a minor part of it. The message was to stop making a public spectacle of your religion ... like the hypocrites. If you do good, God will know, he said. (duh) Very few of them REALLY opposed Separation, because their own denomination had been persecuted.
Thanks, Ross, for adding to my arsenal.
6
No wonder the phrase "and they call themselves Christians" is more popular than ever.
27
Ross, it boils down to one word -- hypocrisy.
Jesus would never have come down if he had been able to see all the things done later in his name.
Jesus would never have come down if he had been able to see all the things done later in his name.
28
I'm sorry but anyone supporting someone like Trump can hardly claim to be "remoralizing" politics.
33
Mr Douthat, this column not only rails to match your best. To my mind it's downright dishonest.
When you request our sympathy for members of the religious right because of their "legal-cultural isolation," isn't what you're really requesting is our pity that they have less legal mandate to control other people's live, i.e., who they can marry, what they can study or read or drink? There seems to be fixed in your mind that this group is some kind of moral default or reference, the true yeoman Americans, and that their loss of primacy is a real loss to the wider society, rather than something to be welcomed if not celebrated.
And your evidence that "A right-of-center politics that cares less about marriage and abortion" would be "ultimately far more divisive than the evangelical politics of George W. Bush" is feeble. The outreach of the religions right--the WHITE religious right--in such matters as criminal justice reform and AIDS relief in Africa came late and lame, seemingly done almost in shame at being outperformed by more liberal evangelical groups (President Carter, take a bow), not to mention secular ones.
And you know that their shame has very much to do with race--as does Trump's entire campaign.
When you request our sympathy for members of the religious right because of their "legal-cultural isolation," isn't what you're really requesting is our pity that they have less legal mandate to control other people's live, i.e., who they can marry, what they can study or read or drink? There seems to be fixed in your mind that this group is some kind of moral default or reference, the true yeoman Americans, and that their loss of primacy is a real loss to the wider society, rather than something to be welcomed if not celebrated.
And your evidence that "A right-of-center politics that cares less about marriage and abortion" would be "ultimately far more divisive than the evangelical politics of George W. Bush" is feeble. The outreach of the religions right--the WHITE religious right--in such matters as criminal justice reform and AIDS relief in Africa came late and lame, seemingly done almost in shame at being outperformed by more liberal evangelical groups (President Carter, take a bow), not to mention secular ones.
And you know that their shame has very much to do with race--as does Trump's entire campaign.
19
The people who know the most about the religious right are those on the left. Never have really figured that out. But then again my barber knows more about medicine than my doctor.
4
Let's not put too fine an edge on it. Say what you will, the Trump campaign has unmasked the so called "religious" right as precisely what they are; a bunch of shameless hypocrites who hide behind religion to justify racism, xenophobia, and just straight up ignorance. Give us a break, these people have the moral compass of a chicken.
35
The abortion issue is obviously horrible, but the religious right can hang its hat on Clinton for other liberal policies that help people, namely improving the ACA so more people have access to care. How could that not be considered Christian?
21
Dear God, please... First of all, NO ONE is "pro-abortion." The term is "pro-choice," as you well know, Mr. Douthat. Second, I am sick of self-righteous pronouncements about this issue that don't take into account the real world consequences of limited or no access to safe abortion. If you wish to make the claim that "every abortion is a unique human life snuffed out forever," that's fine. But put your money where your mouth is and step up to take responsibility for some of the those "unique human lives" that have already resulted from unwanted pregnancies. By this I mean go adopt a needy child. Not an adorable little healthy infant - go take into your home a troubled teenager who has been abused and is stuck in a horrific foster care situation or juvenile detention, just for example. There are lots to choose from, I assure you. Have you done that? I have. Until you have, spare me your rhetoric, please.
41
I am a Methodist and am not part of the religious right. I was raised as a Baptist and learned of the teachings of Jesus in Sunday School. I learned enough of the Bible to know it contains contradictory passages and sometimes irrelevant "stories." However , the essence of the Christian religion is based on the teachings of Jesus. To me, the leaders of the religious right subscribe to their very thin Bible, one in which there are 2 Commandments, don't have an abortion and don't let gay people marry.
27
With their support of Trump, the astoundingly hypocritical religious right in our country has proven, once again, that their primary mission is the suppression and belittlement of women...just like all fundamental religions. How any women at all cozy up to this is a complete mystery to me.
23
please, god save us from organized religion
23
Douthat can spin it any way he likes but in the end this slection season we learned--straight from the pulpit--if the country is lost the church is lost.
A staggering admission when you realize that at the core of the church is the resurrection and after Christ arose the church could never be lost--or so they used to say. Along came Donald Trump and now the church is lost. It is lost because it never believed that stuff about the deity in the first place.
American Christians trust a God they do not believe in--and when you do not believe in something you will fall for anything...
A staggering admission when you realize that at the core of the church is the resurrection and after Christ arose the church could never be lost--or so they used to say. Along came Donald Trump and now the church is lost. It is lost because it never believed that stuff about the deity in the first place.
American Christians trust a God they do not believe in--and when you do not believe in something you will fall for anything...
8
I thought Evangelical Christians considered bringing the Christian message to others to be a high priority. But now young people considering becoming Christians will look at the those supporting Donald Trump, and think, "So they admire someone who mocks a reporter with a disability, and brags about sexual assault?" Donald Trump does things on purpose in order to harm others, and they want him to be our President? To listen to the Christian Right, you would never know that Jesus spoke of helping the poor, forgiving those who have made mistakes, loving one another, and even loving our enemies. This is so sad!
22
The right is already tribal, cruel and very dark, and if there's any justice left, they won't have a future. This election cycle has demonstrated they are no longer conservatives, they're extremists, and dangerous.
What is it, Ross, that you don't understand about separation of church and state? Why should your religious dogma, or mine, or anyone's underpin legislation that's for all Americans? Why can't you just rebuild a reasonable conservatism, if such a thing is possible, and leave religion out of it? Because based on the GOP's experience with your religious right, you should probably try something else. It may come as a shock, but even though you can't lead a worthwhile, moral, and principled life without the 'transcendence' of religion, there are many of us who can and do.
What is it, Ross, that you don't understand about separation of church and state? Why should your religious dogma, or mine, or anyone's underpin legislation that's for all Americans? Why can't you just rebuild a reasonable conservatism, if such a thing is possible, and leave religion out of it? Because based on the GOP's experience with your religious right, you should probably try something else. It may come as a shock, but even though you can't lead a worthwhile, moral, and principled life without the 'transcendence' of religion, there are many of us who can and do.
185
Is it not the case that the "religious freedom" clause of your Constitution is a shield protecting all religions from government interference (eg outlawing certain sects or closing churches)? But the religious right isn't satisfied with that; rather, it decided "religious freedom" could be a sword to be used against fellow citizens....well, they are repeatedly falling on their own sword and deservedly so. Religious influence on public governance is having a too slow but inevitable death because it is "tribal, cruel and dark". Teach your children to be kind and generous to all, Mr. Douthat, rather than rules designed to be anything but kind and generous. Do that and you'll have nothing to worry about.
117
Here's the thing... you may worship at whatever fantastical alter you wish; you may believe that the bible is literally the Word of God and that the world is 5,000 years old. You may believe that only 'your kind' are going to heaven, while the vast majority of the world's population are headed to some sort of purgatory; you may feel that women have no place in the priesthood; that 'sperm' are imbued with some sort of spiritual existence that makes contraception murder; that people born gay are somehow not children of the God that you believe makes no mistakes.... this litany could go on and on. Just please don't ask me to believe any of it. And, respect the Constitutional separation of church and state. We all seemed to get along much better when 'religious conservatives' practiced their faith privately and the rest of us didn't have to consider what Christian Sharia law might look like.
Clearly, I don't believe in God; or man's unimaginative attempts to explain what we don't understand. I've heard the question asked... 'but what if you're wrong?' I've always felt that, if the teachings of the Christian church turned out to be literally true, the first people in line for Hell would likely be the most 'religious.' I've never found any evidence that those who talk the most about 'morality' live moral lives.
Clearly, I don't believe in God; or man's unimaginative attempts to explain what we don't understand. I've heard the question asked... 'but what if you're wrong?' I've always felt that, if the teachings of the Christian church turned out to be literally true, the first people in line for Hell would likely be the most 'religious.' I've never found any evidence that those who talk the most about 'morality' live moral lives.
167
Douthat tries to excuse the religious right for their half-hearted support for Trump, but never takes them to task for their full-throated support of George Bush and his disastrous wars, or Jeb Bush and his disgusting attempt to use the Shiavo tragedy for his own political gain. I will shed no tears for their troubles now. The silver lining in the dark orange cloud of Trump will be that movement conservatism and the religious right will be set back on their heels for years, if not a generation.
17
Ross is right - we do need a religious right in the USA. We need everyone to participate in democracy.
1
The greatest strength of this country is the separation of church and state. Believe and worship whoever or whatever you wish as long as you do not impose your beliefs on anyone else. The problem with the religious right is they seek to impose their version of morality on everyone else. Given the opportunity they would surely impose theocracy and in fact we do seem to require politicians to claim they are religious. I find it difficult to understand those who are constantly claiming their freedom is being taken away yet have no problem imposing their view on abortion or civil rights on gay people or anyone who does not subscribe to their version of religion. If you run a business offering services to the public your religious freedom is NOT being denied when you are required to serve gay people or anyone else who walks through your door with the means to pay for whatever goods or services you are selling.
14
What a whitewash!!! Mr. Douthat you have to be the best contortionist in the universe to defend this bunch of bigoted, sanctimonious, white, Bible-thumping, Holey-Rollers and their support of a predatory megalomaniac for POTUS. Trump's "soldiers for Christ" would tear Hillary Clinton to pieces, justify it as the "lord's work" and then be able to hold a church social five minutes later without batting an eye.
The religious mobs in 1930's Germany justified genocide in the exact same way that Trump's Crusaders would load the boxcars headed to the camps in this country, if given the chance.
The religious mobs in 1930's Germany justified genocide in the exact same way that Trump's Crusaders would load the boxcars headed to the camps in this country, if given the chance.
9
Oh boo hoo for you, Ross. You can't quite say that they are monstrous hypocrites, can you? As a gay person who the religious right has been viciously slandering and defaming for years, telling me I was the worst person on earth, that I was going to hell, was a pretty crushing thing to constantly hear when I was 13 years old. Your religious right is an absolute hate group against gay people, they don't even want us to live. I got the strong impression as a teen that they would be be happy if I committed suicide. I am not joking. Nice friends of yours, Ross.
"Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy .." This is shockingly dishonest. She wants to keep abortion laws as they are. Implying- no, SAYing- that Hillary supports aborting 8 month old pregnancies is a lie.
Finally, there's a tremendous amount of difference between Catholicism and the religious Right you are championing and weeping tears for. You seem way , way more aligned with the evangelical Right than you are with Catholicism. Because Catholicism has the element of forgiveness and mercy built into it. The religious right has no such thing, there is no forgiveness, just sheer hatred towards people like myself.
"Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy .." This is shockingly dishonest. She wants to keep abortion laws as they are. Implying- no, SAYing- that Hillary supports aborting 8 month old pregnancies is a lie.
Finally, there's a tremendous amount of difference between Catholicism and the religious Right you are championing and weeping tears for. You seem way , way more aligned with the evangelical Right than you are with Catholicism. Because Catholicism has the element of forgiveness and mercy built into it. The religious right has no such thing, there is no forgiveness, just sheer hatred towards people like myself.
27
Why does America need a religious right? Haven't we suffered enough? For a robust democracy every government needs an opposition, but why in God's name, so to speak, must the right be "religious"?
13
And the Great Invisible Fairy in the Sky still loves them. Sort of. Just not Donald Trump.
5
You couldn't be more wrong. There's nothing that could have a greater benefit than dropping this fatal anchor.
12
There are plenty of wonderful Christians out there, some of the nicest and most charitable people you will ever meet. Many have been co-opted by the Republican party for crass political purposes. But there is a distinction between real Christians (or genuine people of other faiths) and religious conservatives. There are religious conservatives in Iran, in Saudi Arabia, in Israel, in India, in Pakistan, and by and large, these are the "judgey judgersons" who want to wag their finger at others. That's what people like Franklin Graham, and James Dobson, and Pat Robertson represent. They're gross human beings, and they are the Money Changers that Jesus chased out of the Temple.
17
I am not Mormon, but have known quite a few. I do not understand your comment about Mormons being, well Mormons. I believe I am offended on their behalf.
I also, don't buy your assertion that America NEEDS a religious right. I am fed up with this notion that to be religious is to be conservative. The Pope most surely does not fit this description. He is more my kind of religious leader.
So much unpleasantness to unpack in this opinion piece. I won't be reading you again.
I also, don't buy your assertion that America NEEDS a religious right. I am fed up with this notion that to be religious is to be conservative. The Pope most surely does not fit this description. He is more my kind of religious leader.
So much unpleasantness to unpack in this opinion piece. I won't be reading you again.
17
Mr. Douthat, you believe that without religious conservatism, "the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed." Wake up, Mr. Douthat. The future is already here, and it was ushered in by your handmaiden, "religious conservatism," which has revelled in its own tribalism, cruelty, and darkness for more than thirty years.
16
Why is a tribal right wing the only alternative to a religious right wing? Why can't we have a libertarian right wing? Or no right wing at all?
6
The leaders of the religious right have shown themselves to be hypocrites when it comes to values, especially Jesus' commandment too love God and love our neighbors. When I think of Trump, love is about the last word that comes to mind. Lust yes, love no. Focus on the Family indeed!
11
I would have thought Mr. Douthat would have read through this column at some mid-stage of writing it and realized it is without a thesis and without any real truth. Maybe "serious religious conservatives" didn't want Trump at first, but they have lined up behind him since. That's like saying the heroin addict isn't really an addict because he initially resisted heroin for another drug before injecting heroin into his veins. It's simply faulty logic. This is a column that reads like a desperate columnist had a deadline and just threw together a couple of thousand words to meet his obligation. I don't often agree with him, but Mr. Douthat usually is able to do at least be minimally thought provoking.
3
Let's attack the messenger and not the message, Trump as undesirable as he may seem is standing by religious rights and leaders. Hilary is a vote for
The Devil himself. Pretty simple.
The Devil himself. Pretty simple.
3
I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions, but thank you attempting something that Americans seem to rarely do these days - namely trying to picture oneself in others' shoes, and trying to at least understand others' viewpoints rather than merely demonizing and dismissing those with whom we disagree.
1
When Mr. Douthat conflates "conservative" with "Christian," but sometimes more abstractly with the generic "religious," he proclaims a confused conservatism that is just its own sad version of ugly, exclusionary, fanatical tribalism. Of course RD doesn't see his confusion--extremists rarely, if ever, do.
6
Trump is not the answered messiah (small caps thank you), and certainly doesn't capture the heart beat of Midwestern conservatism. His folly is repetitively old guard moral fatalism, the likes which would embarrass the common man with the exception of William Jefferson. Embarrassment adjoins globel sinergy as allied powers profusely laugh at the two "evil clowns" that lurk amongst the masses. Conservatism is alive wearing a tightly knit sweatshirt embroidered with the words, "What me worry?" Thank you Alfred! A friend phoned the other night and seriously said, "Honestly Phil, is this the best we"ve got?" For some reason, I can't get those words out of my head.
2
The "Christianity" was leached out of American Conservatism a long time ago. When Southern Baptists used the Bible to justify slavery and racism. When the acolytes for St. Ronnie chose money and unregulated capitalism over helping their fellow man, especially those with AIDS. When George W. Bush chose ignorance over enlightenment, and ignored the many perils that modern science was actually trying to help us overcome to minimize human suffering and save the planet.
Spare me the "poor, poor, us" victim speech. American Evangelicals like Ross Douthat had the chance to make the world a better place 12 years ago, and their failure was epic. You blew it.
Spare me the "poor, poor, us" victim speech. American Evangelicals like Ross Douthat had the chance to make the world a better place 12 years ago, and their failure was epic. You blew it.
17
The first words out of Mike Pence mouth where "I am a Christian first and a Republican second".
Based on separation of church and state, those words disqualify him from public office.
Based on separation of church and state, those words disqualify him from public office.
17
I think it was Chief Sitting Bull who allegedly said that he might like Uncle Sam if if Uncle Sam didn't have so many bald headed thieves working for him.
People might like the religious right if the religious right weren't represented by so many hypocritical, opportunistic and greedy charletans.
People might like the religious right if the religious right weren't represented by so many hypocritical, opportunistic and greedy charletans.
9
Yes, the religious right will survive, but it needs far better leaders, and more condemnation of the bigots who claim to speak for them. Tony Perkins and the Westboro Baptist Church are vile by any standard. Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr. dishonor their fathers.
True Christians emulate Christ. The Trump supporters from the religious right violate the core tenets of their own religion. And thereby lose all power and influence.
True Christians emulate Christ. The Trump supporters from the religious right violate the core tenets of their own religion. And thereby lose all power and influence.
9
"And that’s without getting into the legal and regulatory pressure that a Clinton administration could bring to bear on conservative religious institutions."
Translation: A Clinton administration won't allow evangelicals to discriminate against gays, and it won't infringe the religious liberties of Muslims. That's why white evangelicals STILL overwhelmingly support Trump 65% to 10%. http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/october/most-evangelical...
The Religious Right has gone to hell. Let the movement burn for eternity.
Translation: A Clinton administration won't allow evangelicals to discriminate against gays, and it won't infringe the religious liberties of Muslims. That's why white evangelicals STILL overwhelmingly support Trump 65% to 10%. http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/october/most-evangelical...
The Religious Right has gone to hell. Let the movement burn for eternity.
17
What a bunch of Hippocrates so many of you right wingers are. You've bullied and controlled women for hundred of years because there was no birth control until the mid- 1960's. Men are loaded up with testosterone which served both sexes well when muscle was needed to hunt and provide food, safety.
Yet now, in light of the hard science that 40 thousand babies are dying daily around the world of dehydration and hunger, not one of you sactamonious ignoramus's puts your name on a list to adopt or even support them! Instead you use your money and energy trying to keep women in submisive and ignorant, so you guys can continue to rule the world. Well, how's that going?
Yet now, in light of the hard science that 40 thousand babies are dying daily around the world of dehydration and hunger, not one of you sactamonious ignoramus's puts your name on a list to adopt or even support them! Instead you use your money and energy trying to keep women in submisive and ignorant, so you guys can continue to rule the world. Well, how's that going?
11
Excuse me. There is no defense for 'the religious right.' Aside from the fact that its effort to use our government as an instrument to impose harsh, regressive, intolerant, fundamentalist 'Christian' dogma on our citizenry, in contravention of the Constitutional separation of church and state, these hypocritical folks hitched their wagon to Donald Trump's star knowing full well that he is a boorish degenerate and a demagogue with a toxic authoritarian streak.
I'm sick and tired of hearing the faux shock and 'how did this happen to us' self-pity from the right that now runs rampant, when they have at long last been left with no choice but to concede what anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear knew the moment Mr. Trump descended the escalator in the Trump Tower lobby to announce that he would 'build a wall' to exclude 'Mexican rapists and murderers.' Since that vicious opening shot across the bow, Mr. Trump has issued repugnant threats, insults and lies on a daily basis, each worse than the one before. Yet the 'evangelicals' stuck to Trump like glue, no matter what pretzel logic was required to justify it.
Shame on all of you. Nothing Christian about it. This is one step away from the 'extreme Christian terrorism' practiced by our resident white supremacists like the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Aryan Nation, Breitbart and FAIR, all of whom just love Trump. It is as vile and dangerous as any fascist authoritarianism traveling in the guise of 'religion,' Christian or otherwise.
I'm sick and tired of hearing the faux shock and 'how did this happen to us' self-pity from the right that now runs rampant, when they have at long last been left with no choice but to concede what anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear knew the moment Mr. Trump descended the escalator in the Trump Tower lobby to announce that he would 'build a wall' to exclude 'Mexican rapists and murderers.' Since that vicious opening shot across the bow, Mr. Trump has issued repugnant threats, insults and lies on a daily basis, each worse than the one before. Yet the 'evangelicals' stuck to Trump like glue, no matter what pretzel logic was required to justify it.
Shame on all of you. Nothing Christian about it. This is one step away from the 'extreme Christian terrorism' practiced by our resident white supremacists like the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Aryan Nation, Breitbart and FAIR, all of whom just love Trump. It is as vile and dangerous as any fascist authoritarianism traveling in the guise of 'religion,' Christian or otherwise.
20
Where's the Defense of the Unchurched?
9
For the last time: if you don't want an abortion don't have one. Keep your religion off my body and my rights. Try rereading the second amendment again.
16
The only 'good' thing about Trumpism is the lack of religiosity in his 'movement'. They are not saying the earth began 7,000 years ago and evolution is not a response heard by GOP candidates like Marco Rubio saying, " I'm not a scientist."
No matter how you cut it, Ross, your party is turning into the "Basket of Deplorables" so aptly described by Hillary Clinton.
No matter how you cut it, Ross, your party is turning into the "Basket of Deplorables" so aptly described by Hillary Clinton.
9
Your candidate has no morals and is repulsive. Can you and other conservatives just come out and admit this please? He is a debase and an awful excuse for a human being. He should not be in any office in our government let alone the highest office. Stop trying to explain why he is your candidate and just tell us you do not plan on voting for this man. Nothing else will do. There is no other way to put it or explain it. I never thought I would end up having more respect for Mitt Romney than Paul Ryan but I do. He at least will stop dancing around the facts and really "tell it like it is".
8
Mr. Douthat,
There is no excuse for supporting Trump
There is no excuse for supporting Trump
10
Any group that cares so much more for the unborn than they do for the living are not followers of Christ.
10
Who cares if they "didn't want Trump"? They want Trump today! Even after all of the revelations of his actions and character.
Trump is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught us to be. It would in no way be an exaggeration to call him an anti-Christ.
Trump is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught us to be. It would in no way be an exaggeration to call him an anti-Christ.
11
"If you can't see why some people in that situation might persuade themselves that Trump would be the lesser evil, you need to work harder to imagine yourself in someone else's shoes"
I can't imagine why someone stepping into a voting booth in the United States of America to vote for a President would be so confused as to believe they were casting a vote for a religious leader. So no, those odd shoes will never, ever fit me Ross. Maybe a smart & allegedly religious person like you could point out to them that they're not voting for a pope, or a rabbi, etc. but rather the leader of a government that holds as a 1st principle that no law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion.
I can't imagine why someone stepping into a voting booth in the United States of America to vote for a President would be so confused as to believe they were casting a vote for a religious leader. So no, those odd shoes will never, ever fit me Ross. Maybe a smart & allegedly religious person like you could point out to them that they're not voting for a pope, or a rabbi, etc. but rather the leader of a government that holds as a 1st principle that no law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion.
10
There are rumors that the religioius right is neither.
7
About one hundred years from now (when everyone in the U.S. is wearing a burka), I wonder who the then liberals will blame?
"Asking Christian conservatives to accept a Clinton presidency is asking them to cooperate not only with pro-abortion policy-making ..."
Please, Mr. Douthat, use the appropriate description ... pro-choice, not pro-abortion. All of the pro-choice individuals I know view abortion as a last option, a gravely serious choice which should entail the exploration of all options, but nonetheless and ultimately a CHOICE.
Your cavalier use of the phrase "pro-abortion" does huge injustice to individuals like these.
Please, Mr. Douthat, use the appropriate description ... pro-choice, not pro-abortion. All of the pro-choice individuals I know view abortion as a last option, a gravely serious choice which should entail the exploration of all options, but nonetheless and ultimately a CHOICE.
Your cavalier use of the phrase "pro-abortion" does huge injustice to individuals like these.
12
Why not a religious left? Who says Christianity and conservatism are on the same page. Do you think Jesus would support any republican position?
Christians are theoretically supposed to give to the poor, feed the hungry, visit those in prison, clothe the naked and so on. American religious conservatives have taken on a devotion to capitalism that probably does not square very well with the gospels. As for me, I am Catholic but think secular government is the only sane approach. When you mix religion with politics, you get politics.
Christians are theoretically supposed to give to the poor, feed the hungry, visit those in prison, clothe the naked and so on. American religious conservatives have taken on a devotion to capitalism that probably does not square very well with the gospels. As for me, I am Catholic but think secular government is the only sane approach. When you mix religion with politics, you get politics.
12
There are as this column recounts some on the religious right who strive to do right in this election. And regular churchgoers, especially if they are mainstream or liberal Protestant or Catholic or Jewish or Muslim or Hindu, are often not enamored with Trump. But poll after poll shows the vast majority of white evangelicals supporting Trump now, after everything.
True Christians follow Christ, who said that all the Law could be contained in two Commandments: Love God, and Love your neighbor. Jesus was then asked who was our neighbor and he told a story featuring a Samaritan. In those days the Jews considered Samaritans heretics, foreigners, and enemies (imagine Trump's attitude towards a Muslim Mexican).
Most of America's white evangelicals, by supporting Trump, or by supporting some of the other guys who ran for the Republican nomination, have screamed their defiance of both of Jesus' two commandments. As several conservative theologians have noted, they prove that their religion is not knowing loving and serving God, but something opposite of that.
True Christians follow Christ, who said that all the Law could be contained in two Commandments: Love God, and Love your neighbor. Jesus was then asked who was our neighbor and he told a story featuring a Samaritan. In those days the Jews considered Samaritans heretics, foreigners, and enemies (imagine Trump's attitude towards a Muslim Mexican).
Most of America's white evangelicals, by supporting Trump, or by supporting some of the other guys who ran for the Republican nomination, have screamed their defiance of both of Jesus' two commandments. As several conservative theologians have noted, they prove that their religion is not knowing loving and serving God, but something opposite of that.
9
It might be a good time for the Mr. Douthat to reread this:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." We do not require a religious right, left, or anything whatever in government.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." We do not require a religious right, left, or anything whatever in government.
14
Ross should take a turn with the religious left. He'll get all the things he champions without the crass moralizing or the televangelists.
10
My great-grandmother, Nancy Rittenhouse Hiob, died of a septic abortion in 1903. She was married and already had a little girl (my grandmother). No doubt her husband, the tinsmith, encouraged her to take this step since they couldn't afford another child so soon. That husband soon remarried.
Mr. Douthat, in one of your paragraphs defending the religious right you speak with concern about the unborn.
I'm more concerned about the born. Adult women.
And I would like to see you pregnant, and pressed, and scared, and threatened by an intimate, perilous, illegal surgery.
Report back to me when you're done ... if you're still talking.
Mr. Douthat, in one of your paragraphs defending the religious right you speak with concern about the unborn.
I'm more concerned about the born. Adult women.
And I would like to see you pregnant, and pressed, and scared, and threatened by an intimate, perilous, illegal surgery.
Report back to me when you're done ... if you're still talking.
19
Can I say how much I enjoy the "religious conservatives " choking on Trump?
6
As for why religious conservatism deserves to be discarded on the dustbin of history, O.W. Holmes summed it up best: The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.
7
Pure sophistry.
There can be no defense for the hypocrisy and moral emptiness of the Religious Right.
There can be no defense for the hypocrisy and moral emptiness of the Religious Right.
10
There is a consistency one expects from the 'religious right' in order to believe them.
First, they say they are pro life. But the translation really is they are anti-abortion (often also anti birth control). If they also were against capital punishment, against war, and for better health delivery for everyone, then I will believe they are 'pro life'.
Second, isn't this the group, among others, who voted to impeach a sitting president, Bill Clinton, for..... lying about sexual misconduct. Now they support Donald Trump, who is on tape boasting about his own sexual aggression -- while married, to a married woman. How can they expect to be taken seriously?
First, they say they are pro life. But the translation really is they are anti-abortion (often also anti birth control). If they also were against capital punishment, against war, and for better health delivery for everyone, then I will believe they are 'pro life'.
Second, isn't this the group, among others, who voted to impeach a sitting president, Bill Clinton, for..... lying about sexual misconduct. Now they support Donald Trump, who is on tape boasting about his own sexual aggression -- while married, to a married woman. How can they expect to be taken seriously?
10
Besides Donald Trump, the religious right are the greatest threat to American freedom and democracy today.
The GOP has channeled them and used them to ride to power. Now they threaten the GOP in the guise of Trump.
'For whom the bell tolls, GOP?
It's very clear
It tolls for thee!'
The GOP has channeled them and used them to ride to power. Now they threaten the GOP in the guise of Trump.
'For whom the bell tolls, GOP?
It's very clear
It tolls for thee!'
8
I also have to ask how social conservatives of the " Religious Right" reconcile themselves to the legacy of Ronald Reagan?; after all, didn't he herald the decline of this in a socioeconomic sense?
3
The big problem that has plagued 'Christian conservatism' from the vary start is that Christ wasn't a conservative. He didn't say a thing about lowering taxes for the rich. He wasn't bothered by the prospect of gay marriage. He had no objection to women's rights, contraceptives, or abortion. According to the Gospels, He was a bleeding heart liberal -- if you disagree, go back and re-read the Sermon on the Mount. And if He was campaigning today, He'd be campaigning for Hillary.
10
Many, perhaps most, of the hard religious right believe that Earth is about 5,000 years old and that astrophysics is some sort of hoax. They deserve all the disrespect and mockery hurled their way.
7
I'll enjoy the schandefraude Ross. The religious right collapsed under its own hypocrisy. We never needed one.
7
They don't need a defense for scraping the teachings of Christianity for a chance to gnaw on Donald Trump's empty promises. Pitiful.
4
The religious right serves no good political purpose. They simply want to force their religious beliefs on America without regard for separation of Church and State. They want to discriminate against lGBT people and take over the bodies of women because of their religious beliefs. We don't need the religious right in power to help the world's poor or for criminal justice reform. Liberals will do that quite well.
Much of the religious right seems to want to foist Trump on us, for the sake of overturning Roe vs Wade by putting their own people on the supreme court. They have nothing good to offer the US.
Much of the religious right seems to want to foist Trump on us, for the sake of overturning Roe vs Wade by putting their own people on the supreme court. They have nothing good to offer the US.
7
Douthat makes the error of considering Catholics and Mormons as part of the religious right. Both denominations tend to be humanitarian, which is better than what one may say for the typical Repubican politician.
5
At it's core, the Religious Right is nothing more than a power play to maintain patriarchial white superiority. Good riddance.
11
The religious right lost their credibility and their soul when they threw in their lot with Bush 43's neocon warmongers. Their support of Trump is simply their latest hypocrisy.
6
I will defend the religious right when I am able to stop defending myself from the religious right.
12
In defense of hypocrites would be a better title. Any religious group which indulges in faux Sunday forgiveness, then reboots to repeat the same noxious behavior on Monday is not to be trusted.
6
Remember Pence? He is the ultimate "religious right" person. And he is second on the ticket. Something could happen to Trump and then they would have the perfect person.
7
Let's be clear that the religious right's defense of the unborn - who, as they tell us, can't defend themselves - gives them, in their view, the right to impose their religious beliefs on everyone else.
Defend that.
Defend that.
5
You may sit down, sir. Your argument fails because it seems to ignore one important point: Your faction, the Religious Wrong as N B correctly refers to it, wouldn't need a defense if most of its leaders denounced the Orange One instead of supporting him.
7
So the main excuse for the religious right to support Donal Trump is their fear of abortion right? I guess his misogyny, race baiting and xenophobia is totally unimportant?
10
There is no defense for patent nonsense. The universe is older than ten thousand years, there is absolutely no evidence supporting the garden of Eden, Noah's ark, etc.
Zygotes don't have souls (whatever that is). There is no heaven above us or hell below us (whatever/wherever those 'places' are, apologies to John Lennon).
I could care less what kind nonsense any one subscribes to, just keep it to yourself and your group.
People who use religion to deny climate change, throw roadblocks to stem cell research, force women to bear children, twist themselves into pretzels to support racist sexual predators are a major impediment to any kind of improvement the human condition.
Your God is your business, leave me and everyone else out of it. Do not put your religion into the law books.
Zygotes don't have souls (whatever that is). There is no heaven above us or hell below us (whatever/wherever those 'places' are, apologies to John Lennon).
I could care less what kind nonsense any one subscribes to, just keep it to yourself and your group.
People who use religion to deny climate change, throw roadblocks to stem cell research, force women to bear children, twist themselves into pretzels to support racist sexual predators are a major impediment to any kind of improvement the human condition.
Your God is your business, leave me and everyone else out of it. Do not put your religion into the law books.
10
"Values voters"
"Religious Right" values include positions on abortion, sexuality, and women's health. That is about it. Not much about those issues are mentioned in the Bible.
The Bible talks a LOT about accepting others and tolerance. Those values are not given much time by these "Religious Right" people.
This does not make much sense to me.
"Religious Right" values include positions on abortion, sexuality, and women's health. That is about it. Not much about those issues are mentioned in the Bible.
The Bible talks a LOT about accepting others and tolerance. Those values are not given much time by these "Religious Right" people.
This does not make much sense to me.
11
Plenty of fish in this barrel, but I'll limit my shooting to one:
"And that’s without getting into the legal and regulatory pressure that a Clinton administration could bring to bear on conservative religious institutions, the various means that liberal legal minds are entertaining to clamp down on religious dissent from social liberalism’s orthodoxies."
Paranoid much Ross? Please do your homework and state your evidence for a Clinton administration's plans to limit your religious freedoms. I can, however, think of another major American political party whose leadership has explicitly stated plans to do exactly that to Muslims in our midst.
"And that’s without getting into the legal and regulatory pressure that a Clinton administration could bring to bear on conservative religious institutions, the various means that liberal legal minds are entertaining to clamp down on religious dissent from social liberalism’s orthodoxies."
Paranoid much Ross? Please do your homework and state your evidence for a Clinton administration's plans to limit your religious freedoms. I can, however, think of another major American political party whose leadership has explicitly stated plans to do exactly that to Muslims in our midst.
17
One of your more sane and accurate columns, Ross. As a lifelong Catholic, who attended Catholic schools for 13 years, I do get annoyed when you say things like "Catholics are drifting toward Hillary," implying Catholics are Republicans the way Evangelicals are. While there are many VOCAL conservative Catholics, and the hierarchy traditionally leans that way, my experience is the rank and file Catholcs are, and have always been, overwhelmingly Democrats.
This is easy to check out. Simply look at a map of the US showing Catholic population and then a map showing blue states & red states. The maps are astoundingly similar. The major Catholic states are BLUE, and the states with the fewest Catholics are the darkest red. Texas is the only major exception because of the large number of Hispanics who traditionally haven't voted in large numbers. They used to be conservatives, but the modern Republican Party, with its grotesque racism is turning them into staunch Democrats.
Evangelicals? Every one I know is supporting Trump. They reflexively support republic candidtes. In this case, they have sold their souls to the devil. This is a man who said last winter that he didn't have to ask God's forgiveness for ANYTHING. The evangelicals barely made a peep. Can you imagine if Hillary said that? The evangelicals I know are saying that God sometimes uses scoundrels to do his work. So God is for Donald Trump. Amazing.
This is easy to check out. Simply look at a map of the US showing Catholic population and then a map showing blue states & red states. The maps are astoundingly similar. The major Catholic states are BLUE, and the states with the fewest Catholics are the darkest red. Texas is the only major exception because of the large number of Hispanics who traditionally haven't voted in large numbers. They used to be conservatives, but the modern Republican Party, with its grotesque racism is turning them into staunch Democrats.
Evangelicals? Every one I know is supporting Trump. They reflexively support republic candidtes. In this case, they have sold their souls to the devil. This is a man who said last winter that he didn't have to ask God's forgiveness for ANYTHING. The evangelicals barely made a peep. Can you imagine if Hillary said that? The evangelicals I know are saying that God sometimes uses scoundrels to do his work. So God is for Donald Trump. Amazing.
145
Ms Clinton's position is not "pro abortion" but is more accurately stated as a the respect for a woman's right to determine her own health care options. Please correct your inflammatory and mis-leading characterization of Ms Clinton's position.
14
The religious right are fooling themselves and showing their hypocrisy by supporting Trump. I'm sorry, but if they think a man like that will EVER protect their religious values they are delusional. Hillary may have a different values system from them, but at least she is a decent human being who has done work to help children and other women. When has Trump ever helped anyone not named Trump?
11
There is undoubtedly no other political group that is more easily misled and manipulated on an emotional level than those whom take their religious beliefs too seriously.
10
"without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
If the right *needs* a god to make it something other than that then it -- and its people -- are badly and fundamentally flawed, and are unworthy of any support from you, Ross.
If the right *needs* a god to make it something other than that then it -- and its people -- are badly and fundamentally flawed, and are unworthy of any support from you, Ross.
5
It must be a measure of the absolutely epic stupidity of self-professed Christians who support Trump for them to even say they believe, let alone actually believe, that Donald Trump is anti-abortion.
Wow! The fact that "Doubt-that" Douthat even appears to give that idea any level of credence makes his pathetic, bought-and-paid-for credulity all the more sick-making.
Hands up all those people who believe that Donald Trump has never paid for an abortion!
Hands up all those people who believe that Donald Trump would not pay for an abortion tomorrow if it might in any way benefit him to do so.
Donald Trump anti-abortion? Are you totally insane?
Wow! The fact that "Doubt-that" Douthat even appears to give that idea any level of credence makes his pathetic, bought-and-paid-for credulity all the more sick-making.
Hands up all those people who believe that Donald Trump has never paid for an abortion!
Hands up all those people who believe that Donald Trump would not pay for an abortion tomorrow if it might in any way benefit him to do so.
Donald Trump anti-abortion? Are you totally insane?
3
The American religious right has been ruthless in its pursuit of governmental power as have other religious zealots throughout history (see Ireland, Spain, and Saudi Arabia for examples), where, according to the Cambridge Dictionary 'what is ruthless: not thinking or worrying about any pain caused to others." There is a reason that we have separated Church from State in this country.
5
Mr. Douthat mischaracterizes Ms. Clinton's abortion view when he says she "supports legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy." Her actual position is laid out here:http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Abortion.htm
In addition, the vast majority of moral philosophers, those who have studied the issue most closely, reject the strong pro-life view of Mr. Douthat. For more see: "Ethicist Generally Agree: The Pro-Life Arguments Are Worthless." http://reasonandmeaning.com/2016/05/10/ethicists-generally-agree-the-pro...
In addition, the vast majority of moral philosophers, those who have studied the issue most closely, reject the strong pro-life view of Mr. Douthat. For more see: "Ethicist Generally Agree: The Pro-Life Arguments Are Worthless." http://reasonandmeaning.com/2016/05/10/ethicists-generally-agree-the-pro...
5
I do not think that religion of any kind is needed for politics to eschew sexism, racism, and the various phobia that seem to afflict a portion of the Republican base. Simple human decency would suffice. So, maybe America doesn't "need" a religious right.
5
It does not seem that the Christian right has much regard for the separation of powers doctrine. Democracies are long past the time when priests and soothsayers made the laws of the land.
4
The biggest problem with the Christian Right has always been that it is neither. They claim that every word or the Bible is literally true, ignoring the fact it was not written in English, yet seem to miss its spirit entirely. And so you have a group of people obsessed with their opposition to homosexuality and abortion-- topics which Jesus barely mentioned-- promoting politicians whose primary goal is to remove the safety net for the poor so they can give tax breaks to the rich. Jesus had a fair amount to say about the pursuit of money, and it wasn't good.
Provincials who cloak their bigoted agenda in self righteousness, while being manipulated by Big Business and the wealthy -- good riddance.
Provincials who cloak their bigoted agenda in self righteousness, while being manipulated by Big Business and the wealthy -- good riddance.
6
Putting aside for the moment that the god of Christianity is a myth, and the bible, the Christian's proof of God's existence, is, in the words of Samuel Langhorn Clemens." a smattering of history, a wealth of pornography, and upwards of a thousand lies," someone like Trump is what you get when your faith teaches you to ignore reality.
I would much prefer the pilot of my airliner be an atheist and an expert in the science and skills of aeronautics to someone who spent his or her years in college learning to quote the bible at length, and just coincidentally learned to fly on weekends.
I would much prefer the pilot of my airliner be an atheist and an expert in the science and skills of aeronautics to someone who spent his or her years in college learning to quote the bible at length, and just coincidentally learned to fly on weekends.
7
You misrepresent Ms. Clinton's position on abortion. Her position is NOT unrestricted "legal abortion at every state of pregnancy". Clinton says, "I have been on record in favor of a late-pregnancy regulation that would have exceptions for the life and health of the mother." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-answer-questi...
5
"But the Trump era has revealed what you get when you leach the Christianity out of conservatism."
Have I read correctly? That conservatism not grounded in Christianity does not care about family or is divisive, as Mr. Douthat continues in his op-ed? I guess that one cannot be a political conservative in the US, in Mr. Douthat's view, if one is not Christian.
Religious values, perhaps, Mr. Douthat, but you might remember that there are other religions in the US, that they might have values and that some of them might be commensurate with political conservatism.
Have I read correctly? That conservatism not grounded in Christianity does not care about family or is divisive, as Mr. Douthat continues in his op-ed? I guess that one cannot be a political conservative in the US, in Mr. Douthat's view, if one is not Christian.
Religious values, perhaps, Mr. Douthat, but you might remember that there are other religions in the US, that they might have values and that some of them might be commensurate with political conservatism.
4
Douthat explictly called abortion infanticide in a column last week.
There is no way any sane human being should have to respect his form of religious conservatism. None whatsoever.
There is no way any sane human being should have to respect his form of religious conservatism. None whatsoever.
9
Mr. Douthat writes: "Asking Christian conservatives to accept a Clinton presidency is asking them to cooperate [with] their own legal-cultural isolation."
Can you please explain to us:
1) What "legal isolation" would a President Clinton impose on Christian conservatives? What personal rights would (or could) be taken away by her (or any president)?
2) Why should "cultural isolation" (or prevalence) matter when deciding whom to vote for president? Why do conservative Christians feel that they have to wield any sort of political power? Is it because you feel that your religion is the only "correct" type of morality for our country? Do you feel a moral obligation to save everyone else's soul? Are you so insecure in your own religious beliefs that if you understood your actual status as a minority that you would feel less important?
Furthermore:
3) What exactly are "social liberalism's orthodoxies," and why are they so threatening to the personal beliefs of individual Christians? What "legal and regulatory pressures" could Presidenty Clinton impose that could ever prevent a conservative Christian from voicing their "religious dissent?" (Note that "dissent" is merely an act of expression; are you conflating vocing dissent with refusing to abide by laws/regulations?)
4) Isn't the notion of a "religious conservatism" that's "transcendent" an oxymoron? Isn't all religious conservatism by its very nature "tribal?"
Yes, the religious right is "all but broken"; but deservedly so.
Can you please explain to us:
1) What "legal isolation" would a President Clinton impose on Christian conservatives? What personal rights would (or could) be taken away by her (or any president)?
2) Why should "cultural isolation" (or prevalence) matter when deciding whom to vote for president? Why do conservative Christians feel that they have to wield any sort of political power? Is it because you feel that your religion is the only "correct" type of morality for our country? Do you feel a moral obligation to save everyone else's soul? Are you so insecure in your own religious beliefs that if you understood your actual status as a minority that you would feel less important?
Furthermore:
3) What exactly are "social liberalism's orthodoxies," and why are they so threatening to the personal beliefs of individual Christians? What "legal and regulatory pressures" could Presidenty Clinton impose that could ever prevent a conservative Christian from voicing their "religious dissent?" (Note that "dissent" is merely an act of expression; are you conflating vocing dissent with refusing to abide by laws/regulations?)
4) Isn't the notion of a "religious conservatism" that's "transcendent" an oxymoron? Isn't all religious conservatism by its very nature "tribal?"
Yes, the religious right is "all but broken"; but deservedly so.
12
"Serious religious conservatives didn't want Trump" -- this appears to help us differentiate the "serious" from the expedient. Maybe they have some other (laudable) characteristics?
"Religious conservatives [have reason] to fear a Clinton presidency" Apparently because giving each woman the right to decide for herself is scary.
"Religious conservatives are [divided] over Trump" So far as Ross explains, supporting Trump and putting Christian values on pause is illuminating a "generational struggle". Ross is unclear which generation is on which side of hypocrisy. It seems Trump is doing a good thing in focusing the religious upon this divide, although that is not said to be his aim.
"America needs a religious right" because without it we'll be careless about marriage and abortion. Fact check, please?
In summary, Ross is disturbed that the "serious religious right" will be discredited by the support of some hypocritical "religious" leaders for Trump. I'm more concerned about Ross's discrediting both the Times and the religious by his logical gaffes and his reliance upon blind ideology that cannot handle the most simple truths.
"Religious conservatives [have reason] to fear a Clinton presidency" Apparently because giving each woman the right to decide for herself is scary.
"Religious conservatives are [divided] over Trump" So far as Ross explains, supporting Trump and putting Christian values on pause is illuminating a "generational struggle". Ross is unclear which generation is on which side of hypocrisy. It seems Trump is doing a good thing in focusing the religious upon this divide, although that is not said to be his aim.
"America needs a religious right" because without it we'll be careless about marriage and abortion. Fact check, please?
In summary, Ross is disturbed that the "serious religious right" will be discredited by the support of some hypocritical "religious" leaders for Trump. I'm more concerned about Ross's discrediting both the Times and the religious by his logical gaffes and his reliance upon blind ideology that cannot handle the most simple truths.
9
The ostentatious concern for the rights of the unborn is really only about punishing women for having sex.
11
Get a grip! You and your colleagues in the conservative press had your chance. For years you had the opportunity to show what a scam the sympathy shown to under-educated, job displaced white males the Republican Party was engaging in. But no, you just advocated trickle-down economics, lower the highest tax rate, reduce business taxes, and did nothing for these people who found themselves in more difficult straights precisely because of your Party’s policies. The Democrats haven’t done much better in helping these economically and culturally displaced people, but they haven’t to the same degree been so patently exploitive.
12
Apology rejected. The religious right's hypocritical distortions and lying about the Contititution, its history and the courts gave rise to the the willful ignorance in which Trumpism could survive. Like Trump it should be shunned hereafter as a corrosive, devise, mendacous, unamerican and regressive influence that gave life to Trumpism and hyopcrictally supports him.
11
For all the rivers of blood that organized religion has provoked throughout human history, look at Syria for a current example, I thank God for America's tradition of separating church and state.
10
"[W]hat you get when you leach the Christianity out of conservatism: A right-of-center politics [...] that’s ultimately far more divisive than the evangelical politics of George W. Bush."
I had to lean back in my chair to absorb that one. This is your "defense"? It sounds more like an admission: without the incessant clerical moralizing and the divine Big Brother staring over our shoulders reminding us to "love, or else!", American "conservatism" is an ideology of division and hate.
It's true. With the Christian pretense stripped away, American conservatism is actually what's called "libertarianism" in this country (the word means something quite different elsewhere). That's the true religion of the Republican Party, its bible the compiled works of Ayn Rand. The world depicted therein is near as hateful as the one you'll read about in Mein Kampf and, indeed, hear exalted at a Trump rally.
So I'm glad we're on the same page. As far as the institutional GOP is concerned, Christianity is less a faith so much as it is a convenient drape to hide the indecencies of the world they mean to create. We all know how much that "essential" religious right likes to throw drapes over indecent things, like women's bodies, after all.
I had to lean back in my chair to absorb that one. This is your "defense"? It sounds more like an admission: without the incessant clerical moralizing and the divine Big Brother staring over our shoulders reminding us to "love, or else!", American "conservatism" is an ideology of division and hate.
It's true. With the Christian pretense stripped away, American conservatism is actually what's called "libertarianism" in this country (the word means something quite different elsewhere). That's the true religion of the Republican Party, its bible the compiled works of Ayn Rand. The world depicted therein is near as hateful as the one you'll read about in Mein Kampf and, indeed, hear exalted at a Trump rally.
So I'm glad we're on the same page. As far as the institutional GOP is concerned, Christianity is less a faith so much as it is a convenient drape to hide the indecencies of the world they mean to create. We all know how much that "essential" religious right likes to throw drapes over indecent things, like women's bodies, after all.
10
The religious right is morally bankrupt. Do you know why? It appears to me they suppressed and abandoned a central part of their believe system which is Jesus Christ and instead have chosen to follow a man who conveys and lives hatred with every speech he gives.
I feel nauseous listenening to the likes of Mr. Falwell and Dr Carson describing him as a changed man and then hearing him ridicule victims of his alleged sexual abuse after months of demeaning comments on the most vulnerable members of our society.
This man openly stands for, lives, and conveys the opposite of Jesus Christ and yet religious right leaders appear to have no problem with that. By following and supporting him they do not realize their blasphemy.
I feel nauseous listenening to the likes of Mr. Falwell and Dr Carson describing him as a changed man and then hearing him ridicule victims of his alleged sexual abuse after months of demeaning comments on the most vulnerable members of our society.
This man openly stands for, lives, and conveys the opposite of Jesus Christ and yet religious right leaders appear to have no problem with that. By following and supporting him they do not realize their blasphemy.
12
Please don't call Trump a "pagan." He has called himself a Christian, and has secured a majority of voters on the religious right. The proof of this can be seen in his success in states that strongly identify the Republican Party with religious conservatism. Say what you want about Cruz, Rubio, et al, Trump was the one who spoke to the bigotry and self-righteousness of the conservative Christian souls.
1
No we don't! When has the religious right ever helped anyone? They always have an agenda of hate and isolationist values. Savvy politicians avoid them and when they don't they end up like Rubio and Cruz. Modern public is realizing they (the R.R.) have no place in politics. Now that Gay voters and pro choice proponents control a huge voting block, their end is near. Praise the Lord!
3
Favoring Ted Cruz is just another form of indictment. But I suppose that one will be opaque for another 20.
6
Please stop using the words "pro abortion". It is pro choice. It is against women dying from illegal abortions.
9
The only people who think that America needs a religious right is, wait for it, the religious right themselves.
The rest of us will be thrilled to see them practice their faith in private however they want, without trying to force their beliefs on everyone else through legislation and judicial fiat.
The rest of us will be thrilled to see them practice their faith in private however they want, without trying to force their beliefs on everyone else through legislation and judicial fiat.
11
"Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy." What does that even mean? Never mind, I know what it means, just as I know it is completely, abjectly, demonstrably false (with emphasis on the "demon" part). How are we supposed to take seriously the opinions of someone who does not understand and/or will not acknowledge the facts? Ms. Clinton's position on abortion, and Roe v. Wade, is a matter of public record and widely known -- except, apparently, by Mr. Douthat. (He knows, of course; he's just not saying.) It is a also something that people of good will and good intentions may argue about. But reasoned argument does not and never should begin with a distorted, a dishonest factual premise.
13
I maintain that the Bible believing people have much in common with the Democratic party and its urge to help the poor than the Republican party with its worship of Mammon. However the Bible believing people cannot compromise on abortion nor gay marriage, though, seemingly they have compromised on heterosexual divorce (Mark 10:9). The solution is for the Bible believing people to en masse invade the Democratic Party and use the power of their numbers to force their agenda. This will lead to a desirable split in the party producing two new parties, the Christian Democratic Party and the Liberal Democratic Party and a weakened Republican Party. The term Christian Democratic sounds familiar because there are European political parties of that name and also Liberal Democratic Party. I suppose I need to spread this idea not via the Times but via Christian or Southern media.
2
Here's the point: The religious conservatives' market niche is based on their claim to superior moral authority. That no longer exists, and so there's literally no reason to take them seriously, not about Trump and not about anything else.
7
The religious right's support of the most unethical candidate in modern history reveals that their morals and convictions are a sham.
8
The religious right political movement has now admitted to what its critics long accused it of: complete abandonment of its alleged principles in exchange for political power.
6
Just many others stated the religious right has always angered me for trying to put their philosophy in place as a Christian sharia law. If they want to believe in a hybrid doctrine from Leviticus and revelation plus somethings made out of whole cloth so be it but do not try to codify your faith into our legal structure . Separation of church and state was a brilliant idea, let us stick with it.
11
The religious conservatives embrace Donald Trump and gladly because he is in truth the very embodiment of their values. Trump is in the mold of Moses, Aaron and Joshua and the morality that after the Battle of Jericho, declared all the men be slaughtered and the women and children as well, while taking thousands of virgins as sex slaves. The same morality that dictated the Midianites and Amalekites be completely destroyed - take no prisoners, leave none alive.
The same morality that justifies and revels in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for alleged sexual deviancy.
Trump would no doubt identify with King David and his eight consorts. In the story of how David arranged for the murder of Uriah so he could have Uriah's wife Bathsheba, Trump could well be the man.
And as for that epitome of Christians values, Jesus of Nazareth, who came 'not to bring peace but the sword, to set man against his father, daughter against her mother and brother against brother,' again they behold the very likeness of Trump.
It matters not if these questionable events actually happened. The religious right believes it. Nor does it matter that the Judeo-Christian bible is a record of outdated ethics because they consider all of it exemplary and would kill the families of terrorists, water board suspects and carpet bomb without remorse if only they could.
Therefore Mr. Ross I must disagree. America does not need a religious right. But it appears the Republican Party does.
The same morality that justifies and revels in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for alleged sexual deviancy.
Trump would no doubt identify with King David and his eight consorts. In the story of how David arranged for the murder of Uriah so he could have Uriah's wife Bathsheba, Trump could well be the man.
And as for that epitome of Christians values, Jesus of Nazareth, who came 'not to bring peace but the sword, to set man against his father, daughter against her mother and brother against brother,' again they behold the very likeness of Trump.
It matters not if these questionable events actually happened. The religious right believes it. Nor does it matter that the Judeo-Christian bible is a record of outdated ethics because they consider all of it exemplary and would kill the families of terrorists, water board suspects and carpet bomb without remorse if only they could.
Therefore Mr. Ross I must disagree. America does not need a religious right. But it appears the Republican Party does.
8
many of us understand that the cultural foundation to some of our darkest moments in history were underpin by christian theology. Selected scripture was used to codify laws to disadvantage people based on their ethnicity (Chinese,Asian Indian,Native American, Italian, African American) and religion (Jewish). However, it appears that our current politics has co-opted our faith community to a degree not seen since the middle ages. I am a Christian but cannot identify with the church that has evolved over the past few years. And cannot agree with your defense of the Christian conservatives.
5
As a resident of California, I have seen this story before. When Arnold Schwarzenegger ran for governor, half a dozen women came forward to accuse him of groping them. The result was that these women were trashed first by Fox news and talk radio, and then “investigated” by the mainstream LA Times. Like Trump, Arnold is not religious in the least. However, the religious right lined up behind Arnold, and, like with Trump, there were letters to the editor about how glorious it would be when they were able to make their new star see Jesus as his savior. Arnold was elected and disaster followed. I wonder if the religious right confuses the stars that they see on the big screen with the angels that they see in the sky.
7
Christian conservatives who want to punish women for abortion seem no different than Islamic conservatives who want to punish women for failing to be modest. Christian conservatives who want an exception from civil laws on ACA etc seem no different than Islamic conservatives who want an exception so they can adjudicate according to sharia.
In both cases, these groups want to enforce their religious views on all Americans. Or they want to practice their religion in a way that exempts them from American law.
In both cases, these groups want to enforce their religious views on all Americans. Or they want to practice their religion in a way that exempts them from American law.
8
When the self described Religious Right is as concerned about the plight of the homeless, the working poor, the disabled, and the incarcerated as they are about a fetus people might take them a little more seriously.
Jesus said as you have done unto the least of these, my brothers, you have done it unto me. I do not see that impacting the politics of the Republicans who claim to be guided first by faith.
Finally, we need a compete elimination of faith based anything from our political affairs. This country was founded as a secular republic and that has always been it's best feature.
Jesus said as you have done unto the least of these, my brothers, you have done it unto me. I do not see that impacting the politics of the Republicans who claim to be guided first by faith.
Finally, we need a compete elimination of faith based anything from our political affairs. This country was founded as a secular republic and that has always been it's best feature.
16
The right wing religionists must love the constitution even as they abuse it. Free speech and free from church taxes, they spout nonsense as they desperately try to impose their vision on others.
They insert their "vision" into everything. They want to breakdown the separation of church and state by placing religious symbols on PUBLIC property. They harass women choosing abortion. They vote their wallets. They world is otherworldly so why care about the environment?
They are selfish, and falsely believe they heaven awaits.
They insert their "vision" into everything. They want to breakdown the separation of church and state by placing religious symbols on PUBLIC property. They harass women choosing abortion. They vote their wallets. They world is otherworldly so why care about the environment?
They are selfish, and falsely believe they heaven awaits.
5
This bit by Douthat is nonsense, an apologia for the grand army of hypocrites that is the religious right. If there is anything positive in the nation' s "Trump Episode" it is the lifting of the curtain on the moral emptiness of this group. Mike Huckabee, indeed.
13
I really can not think of any religious or moral thing Trump has done. He goes against everything I would attest to a Christian. He is supported by the Christian conservatism for the same reason most of the GOP still supported him, they are afraid of losing their power and are trying to hedge their bets. Its pure hypocrisy and reinforces what I always believed.
10
What makes religious conservatives who oppose abortion believe that Donald Trump will stick to his expressed opposition to it if elected?
3
The religious has always subscribed to the fisherman's theory "throw um back we'll kill um later" of the value of human life. They will condone the police shooting black men in the streets and murdering black women in holding cells while they expend every effort to save the lives of yet to be born children. It is not an either-or situation, it's both! When I see those on the RR getting as excited about lives here now as they are about lives soon to be here, then I will know their cause is about more than maintaining a permanent underclass to serve up cheap labor.
6
Does anyone truly believe Trump is anti-abortion and even believes in God?
He's a con man who will say anything depending on the audience he has at the moment.
Of the evangelicals can't see this, they have more to learn than just whom to vote for this election.
He's a con man who will say anything depending on the audience he has at the moment.
Of the evangelicals can't see this, they have more to learn than just whom to vote for this election.
8
But let's not forget that historical mainline denominations (Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Lutherans) , with plenty of Republicans in them, hardly support Trump
7
Where do the Catholic child molestors fit into this scenario? Are they the religious right? The catholic right? Christian right catholic child molestors? It's too bad the catholic church never finished cleaning up that mess (other than paying off a bunch of kids and hiding the predator priests.)
6
Your use of the word "pagan" is unironically disparaging and offensive.
18
So SO tired of the idea that only the religious have morals.
The religious right has brought all of this on themselves. They will have "legal-cultural" presence when they look at REALITY and learn to compromise like any other group in politics. You all love to talk about the "overreach" the left did with various things, but this current moment of nastiness is the bill coming due for your "moral" black-and-white religion in politics overreach.
I have no sympathy. Everyone's transcendence is their own; it cannot be legislated.
The religious right has brought all of this on themselves. They will have "legal-cultural" presence when they look at REALITY and learn to compromise like any other group in politics. You all love to talk about the "overreach" the left did with various things, but this current moment of nastiness is the bill coming due for your "moral" black-and-white religion in politics overreach.
I have no sympathy. Everyone's transcendence is their own; it cannot be legislated.
40
No, Ross, religious conservatism must NOT be rebuilt. It's bogus, and it's always been bogus. Simple test? Arrange for polygraph tests of some people who claim to believe in invisible thunder gods. You go first. Have some bishops follow. Some pro-lifers. Some Opus Dei people. Anyone you choose. Let your readers suggest the questions.
19
Sorry, Ross, they're hypocrites. You don't get to say that you're part of a movement built on purity and truth and then turn around and say, "Well, we support anybody who supports our narrow political interests." It's one thing to be a secular pragmatist, but either you believe the word of the Bible or you don't. And if you believe even one tenth of what the Bible has to say about sin and truth and the sanctity of marriage, you cannot vote for a man like Donald Trump.
11
Hypocrisy never sleeps.
5
The religious right has brought upon its own ultimate demise. They have allowed themselves, by their actions, to be correctly characterized by bigotry, ignorance, and intolerance. And something else needs to be said - dear Pence, Douthat, etc. STOP saying you support Judeo-Christian values. Most Jews want to have nothing to do with your errant values.,
10
Ummm, Ross, you know how to spell patriarchy? This campaign has spelled out for all to see that that's what the "Christian" Right comes to.
11
"America needs a religious right..."
No, it doesn't, and in fact, the religious "right" is rife with hypocrites who cherry-pick the Bible for their own selfish, hateful ends. Period.
No, it doesn't, and in fact, the religious "right" is rife with hypocrites who cherry-pick the Bible for their own selfish, hateful ends. Period.
26
Separation of church and state, Douthat. There's nothing to defend.
Why writest thou for the times?
The Bible actually say nothing about abortion. Nothing.
By the way, you are broken because you can't accept blame for trumping up Trump, you and the right-wing Republican echo chamber.
Why writest thou for the times?
The Bible actually say nothing about abortion. Nothing.
By the way, you are broken because you can't accept blame for trumping up Trump, you and the right-wing Republican echo chamber.
18
Pagan Demagogue? No, unless you from the one and only church are referring to Presbyterian Trump and his Congregational upbringing with Norman Vincent Peale as Pagan.
2
Reading this, I just want to puke. It is revolting to acknowledge just how low our political discourse has stooped. That the NYT would even agree to print this lame Douthat column prompts me to ponder just how much VOMIT exists in our system. Carson should never have been elevated by the media to be anywhere near the on-deck circle of any electoral position, let alone POTUS. So I'll ask the Captain: "Please bring me my wine" because, even though I can check out any time I wish, I am also sacred to know that I can never truly leave.
6
your comment abt the pull of transcendence is important, wd that it were also on the left , you know the social gospel of Reinhod Neihbuhr, or of Dorothoy Day or Daniel Berrigan (who was against abortion I believe). but the leftish christians who believe in orthodoxy are fewer now
2
Ish, another spill of religious hooey for these trying times.
13
Ross,
Surely you remember these teachings from your Catholic catechism / theology classes:
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
"Go, and sin no more."
"Has no one condemned you? Then neither do I condemn you."
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
"It is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle."
Or these from Luke:
"Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets."
Reflect on these. Hard.
Surely you remember these teachings from your Catholic catechism / theology classes:
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
"Go, and sin no more."
"Has no one condemned you? Then neither do I condemn you."
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
"It is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle."
Or these from Luke:
"Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets."
Reflect on these. Hard.
12
You mention the "allegedly-theocratic ambitions" of your cohort.
That's an odd way to describe the proponents of an American Christianist sharia way of life.
That's an odd way to describe the proponents of an American Christianist sharia way of life.
12
Not to get too Biblical, but I think this is a clear case of reaping what you sow. Both God, and reality, shall not be mocked.
14
"......but every abortion is a unique human life snuffed out forever."? But the innocent life snuffed out on the way to school in Chicago, at church in South Carolina, in classroom in Newtown or a mall in Indianapolis just doesn't qualify for discussion (beyond the "thoughts and prayers" of robotic politicians) because the "religious right", pseudo-Christian bloc worships and takes blood money from the NRA! The raving right-wing media outlets will say ANYTHING to defame Hillary, including her position on abortion, and this article echoes that....she is neither pro-abortion or in favor of late-term abortion. The rage to defund Planned Parenthood ignores the fact that PP provides birth control (antidote to need for abortion) and treatment for STDs and in that process helps keep responsible people from conducting their reproductive life in good health. There are thousands of sweet, pure daughters of conservatives who make use of PP services that the politicians would deprive them of....please consider how Trump's dirty mouth brags so much about his treatment and attitude toward women. HE and men who behave like him is precisely why abortion should be available. I have held the hand of a twelve-year old girl delivering a baby. Damn anyone who believes donating a car-seat and box of Pampers will "fix" the situation for her. Lastly, of all the thousands and thousands of articles about the right to life rarely is it mentioned the innocent people convicted of capital crimes.
31
Wrong on all points, Mr. Douthat.
Progressive Americans who REALLY support the Constitution, simply want to protect the country from a religious takeover, of any stripe.
Progressive Americans who REALLY support the Constitution, simply want to protect the country from a religious takeover, of any stripe.
26
If the religious right can survive the likes of a Jimmy Swaggart, Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker, the personal enrichment and greed of a Joel Osteen and the clamorous money grubbing of Oral Roberts and the Falwells, the flexibility of their morals will survive a Trump.
Another con man or woman will arise for them. You can't have a religious right without a healthy dose of hatred and as you can see from Trump's supporters they are plenty of haters.
Another con man or woman will arise for them. You can't have a religious right without a healthy dose of hatred and as you can see from Trump's supporters they are plenty of haters.
26
Oh please. The Donald is not to be believed about anything. If his ratings would improve by supporting abortion rights he would do it in a second.
The Christian Right has been duped like all Trump supporters. Trump is of the Donald, by the Donald, and for the Donald.
Forget about promises. Trump is and always was as phony as a three-dollar bill.
The Christian Right has been duped like all Trump supporters. Trump is of the Donald, by the Donald, and for the Donald.
Forget about promises. Trump is and always was as phony as a three-dollar bill.
18
The Religious Right will support anyone who will further their war against a Woman's Right to Choose. If the Religious Right didn't get behind the Tea Party when it did, as it mounted the National Stage, by attending their rallies, they were bused to them, flocked book signings, and again bussed to them as they packed rallies, they would surely have dissolved. But instead, their support gave credence to the Tea Party, making people believe it credible and worthy of support. And now with Trump, they'll do the same, just to try and defeat Hillary Clinton and prevent her from nominating a minimum of three Supreme Court Justices and also to try and get Trump elected to overturn Roe vs. Wade. Even if Trump started showing up at rallies with a dead body around his neck, they'd show their support for them, and all because of their phobia about Women having the Right to Choose Abortion when the individual believes it necessary.
9
"tribal, cruel, and dark" - good summary of the Religious Right. The spectacle of so-called religious leaders supporting an in-your-face misogynist and sexual predator for President is a very enlightening moment for everyone. All of us have really been looking away and ignoring this kind of philosophy and behaviour for years. Mea Culpa! But the Religious Right has virtually institutionalised misogyny, male domination, and disrespect for women. I read somewhere, that Trump supporters were much more likely to answer "yes." to the question: "Do you think that the world is too soft and feminine?" Afraid of strong women, afraid of independent women, above all, afraid of Hilary Clinton.
14
Douthat maintains, "some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
Indeed, Mr. Douthat, indeed. Just like its past, which has transcended it all. Hypocrisy is a vicious spouse.
Indeed, Mr. Douthat, indeed. Just like its past, which has transcended it all. Hypocrisy is a vicious spouse.
8
This is a well reasoned argument, which, unfortunately for Mr. Douthat, is completely negated by a simple falsehood: “Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy may not be a sufficient reason to…” Does he really think that anyone supports a woman’s right to choose “at every stage of pregnancy”?
4
If misogyny is a driving force in the anti-abortion rights crusade it is far from shocking that its manifestation in Trump might not be such a terrible turn off.
6
Why is there an article about the need for religion in politics in the United States? Isn't there supposed to be a separation of church and state? As for the supposed anguish of the religious right over abortion, they have no such anguish for the 35,000 Americans who are killed every year by firearms. I guess the religious right alone has the authority to interpret what "Thou shalt not kill" means and for them, gun control is blasphemous.
11
All religion is bad. We have heard this repeated by enlightened scientists for the past several decades. Instead, they say, we have the following alternatives:
- polytheism, displayed by the Greek and Roman gods, and every aspect of life had its own god
- emperor gods, and those leaders deified themselves to consolidate their power...idolatry is still alive today...Trump
- Marxism which appropriately called religion an opiate...not sure which state is its best exponent
- paganism and animism practiced by African and North American tribal cultures...would we have advanced from living in communal units built on survival over enlightenment?
- wipe out Western Civilization...much of the rise of Europe stood on the shoulders of faithful, stitching itself into the lives of believers (so, too, many of the educational institutions and charitable works of Europe and America)
- you could probably make a credible assault on "deists", the men who created our Constitution, because from what model did they become "deists"...certainly not paganism nor polytheism, definitely not atheism
- it all comes back to Abraham, the mysterious figure from oral tradition who carried the hope of the faithful for thousands of years and against whom mankind has been in open tension ever since
I am not saying to pick one. Discard them all, go with atheism. But when I look at the sweep of human history, I am led back to a man whose words mankind cannot shake from its conscience.
Funny thing.
- polytheism, displayed by the Greek and Roman gods, and every aspect of life had its own god
- emperor gods, and those leaders deified themselves to consolidate their power...idolatry is still alive today...Trump
- Marxism which appropriately called religion an opiate...not sure which state is its best exponent
- paganism and animism practiced by African and North American tribal cultures...would we have advanced from living in communal units built on survival over enlightenment?
- wipe out Western Civilization...much of the rise of Europe stood on the shoulders of faithful, stitching itself into the lives of believers (so, too, many of the educational institutions and charitable works of Europe and America)
- you could probably make a credible assault on "deists", the men who created our Constitution, because from what model did they become "deists"...certainly not paganism nor polytheism, definitely not atheism
- it all comes back to Abraham, the mysterious figure from oral tradition who carried the hope of the faithful for thousands of years and against whom mankind has been in open tension ever since
I am not saying to pick one. Discard them all, go with atheism. But when I look at the sweep of human history, I am led back to a man whose words mankind cannot shake from its conscience.
Funny thing.
Mr. Douhat makes a good point, now more than ever, the world needs religious leadership. Pope Francis has provided the bulk of it over the past few years, as has the Mormon Church, but they are only part of the solution.
Orrin Hatch used to be a great partner with Ted Kennedy on specific issues, like Americorps/volunteer service, until the secular Tea Party got a hold of him and made his political heart turn against his religious one.
And whether or not people believe in abortion being legal, it is religious organizations who can help reduce the number of abortions sought.
Religious leadership matters, and helps Washington work. I wish we had it right now.
Kevin
Orrin Hatch used to be a great partner with Ted Kennedy on specific issues, like Americorps/volunteer service, until the secular Tea Party got a hold of him and made his political heart turn against his religious one.
And whether or not people believe in abortion being legal, it is religious organizations who can help reduce the number of abortions sought.
Religious leadership matters, and helps Washington work. I wish we had it right now.
Kevin
1
What about a religious left, Mr. Douthat? From Dorothy Day to Martin Luther King Jr. to Casey Hayden to William Barber, it seems that the religious left has had a much larger, real, and lasting impact on our society than the religious right. Perhaps that's because the left, religious and otherwise, tries to empower people rather than restrict them, to lift up the downtrodden rather than to protect those who already enjoy great privilege. Perhaps it's because they are closer to the real meaning of their religion.
22
The problem with organized religion is that it is organized. The majority in the United States has always used religion to maintain the status quo against the minority. Look at how African American Christianity developed during slavery. Christianity was made available to slaves but it was a religion of accepting worldly ills in the hopes of a better afterlife. Or organized religion's views towards women. Keep them in the home and child rearing according to the scripture. Or its views on LGBT rights. You can't sell them a wedding cake because homosexuality is not the natural state of "man" or "marriage." As long as organized religion is used as a tool to control the minority, the value it holds in creating community is vastly outweighed by the harm it does to our fellow citizens.
23
It's pretty rich to suggest that those who are pro choice should work harder to see ourselves in the shoes of the religious right. I don't know anyone who is pro choice who would deny someone's right to carry a pregnancy through. Why does the religious right think that imposing their views on those women who need to take control of their reproductive life is okay? Can't they put themselves in other wonen's shoes and allow freedom of choice as written in law? That's why we have separation of church and state. So other people's
shoes are respected. Don't need an abortion, don't have one. But keep your religious views off other women's bodies.
shoes are respected. Don't need an abortion, don't have one. But keep your religious views off other women's bodies.
33
America needs a religious right? Like a fish needs a bicycle. How do you feel about Rex Reed of Joel Osteen, Mr. Doubt-that? If the religious right wants to insert itself into politics, they need to start paying taxes on their property and income (another reason they love Drumpf) or change the Constitution. I seriously doubt they will ever muster the will or the numbers to do either.
8
I would only ask that you consider whether or not even sticking with the term "conservative" is helpful when speaking of religion. Perhaps applying the terms of political discourse to religious belief at all--conservative, liberal, whatever--inevitably taints religion's role in the public square.
1
When the Christian right starts recognizing that most of the "religious freedoms" they see eroding are in fact freedoms actively to oppress others who are simply minding their own business and spiritual beliefs, then come back and claim the U.S. needs a religious right.
7
Our country was established to allow for genuine religious freedom to practice one's faith. Mr. Douthat appears unaware of the "religious left", an albeit loosely affiliated organization of those who minister at prisons, volunteer at Planned Parenthood clinics, and wash the feet of the homeless (like Central Presbyterian in Atlanta). We honor and respect science, tolerate and even appreciate the differences we have with other religions and vote our conscience while "rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" without bitter complaint. While abortion (like the now recognized legal right of gay marraige) may be a single issue for some small cadre of voters, it isn't for the rest of us in the 21st century. Jesus was a radical liberal in his time. Many of us honor that and try to follow in his true footsteps. Not all Christians follow those same steps. Some wrap themselves in the flag while carrying a cross. Their self-righteousness will have a reckoning in this life - or the next.
10
Only time will tell if what we're witnessing is the GOP undergoing an identity crisis and course correction or death rattles. When I read Douthat conclude with a plea for a rebuilt "religious conservatism", I could only think of John McEnroe saying famously, "you have got to be kidding!". If Trump's supporters didn't already see through the phony piety of the GOP, he has shown how shallow and anemic it's become, Ted Cruz's supporters notwithstanding. To watch Trump's base whoop and holler at his rallies is to see folks liberated as much from the establishment GOP as from the religious right, reveling in Trump's unencumbered, full-throated and vile profanity writ large.
4
The fact is that Donald Trump is such a "Wild Card" no one knows what they might get from him. This makes the gamble harder to understand. I have found a lot of mean spiritedness when the religious right looks at people with diametrically opposed views like myself who don't see such pat easy answers to life's most serious personal dilemmas. Let me live my life without being vilified and God can judge me. Perhaps they identify with Trump's mean spiritedness which allows harsh judgements about trivial matters and deadly judgements about more complex matters.
5
This is all very lawyerly, but suffers from neglecting to take into account the fact that Donald Trump is a ridiculous person on an almost cosmic scale. One does not have to get into policy as it is irrelevant. The campaign is nothing but an orgy of narcissism and nihilism. As a Christian one can disagree with Democrats on abortion, which the bible discusses little, and agree with them on concern for the least among us, which the bible discusses a great deal. But with Trump one is dealing with an entity with no moral structure. Maybe by some appropriate act of obsequiousness one might be granted a favor, but then your enemies could play the same game to get the opposite. More importantly, is Christianity just about checking off boxes? Suppress abortion, check. Allow church to define marriage, check. Abandon governance to an authoritarian, narcissistic con artist, well, yeah, but, abortion! Marriage! I am sorry, no list of check boxes is worth selling out the soul of your country.
However prettily you dress it up supporting Trump is amoral. To support Trump *because* you are a Christian, the religion that talks of selling your soul to the devil as a core mythology, well, that is many things. Most politely it shows a profound lack of any sense of irony.
However prettily you dress it up supporting Trump is amoral. To support Trump *because* you are a Christian, the religion that talks of selling your soul to the devil as a core mythology, well, that is many things. Most politely it shows a profound lack of any sense of irony.
9
I agree on all points save the comments on religious conservative ascendancy. Are you suggesting that the religious right should strive for less ascendance than the free-market , small government crowd; or the neoliberal foreign interventionist of the Reagan/Bush era; or the donor class who with few exceptions owe allegiance to no one other than their pocket books; or the working class, anti intellectual, anti immigration Trump supporter? Every group or ideology pursues to a grrater or lesser extent their own agenda. Why should the Christian right be any different?
The definition of the "religious right" is unclear. I was born into a mainstream Protestant religious family in western NY. We were tolerant, guided by the Golden Rule and not of the Religious Right as it stands today. My wife is an ardent Catholic and very liberal, and she and most of her family would take offense at being considered Religious Right. I spent a career in the Air Force, and many of my early assignments were in the segregated south, where I first encountered the Religios Right in large numbers. Typically, they considered the KJV as the the literal inerrant word of God, believed the earth was 6000 years old, strongly supported segregation, deplored science and education, and were suspicious of immigrants. They believed in faith healing and loved fire and brimstone preachers. They were not anything like the red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight" Christians I grew up,with.
As an MIT educated engineer, I learned to reject supernatural agents while still admiring the inclusive compassion in the words of Jesus. I now consider the Religious Right to be the fellow travelers of the KKK and a tumor on our country and I think theocracies are the absolute worst form of government. To conclude, pro choice is not the same as pro abortion, and closed minded religious fundamentalism is inherently evil.
As an MIT educated engineer, I learned to reject supernatural agents while still admiring the inclusive compassion in the words of Jesus. I now consider the Religious Right to be the fellow travelers of the KKK and a tumor on our country and I think theocracies are the absolute worst form of government. To conclude, pro choice is not the same as pro abortion, and closed minded religious fundamentalism is inherently evil.
16
Mr Douthat wants Americans to have mercy on conservative Christians, to forgive them of any wrongdoing in this political season. They are blameless for the ascendency of Trump he says. Blessed are the merciful, for mercy shall be theirs! At long last the Christian Right has found in its collective heart to show mercy on Donald Trump. The only problem that he fails to point out is why are these Christians so stingy with mercy and compassion to those who may disagree with them, or as we are learning now, who don't have an R behind their name? This includes the illustrious US conference of Catholic Bishops who, according to Matthew's account of Jesus, "lay heavy burdens...wearing their phylacteries".
In the recently published book "The End of White Christian America," we learn much of what Douthat fails to discuss, especially regarding evangelical Protestantism. It's history in America is laced with racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious intolerance. Perhaps in fact white Christian nationalism comes to mind. Forgiving Mr Trump his past transgressions, which every Christian is commanded to do, has me wondering whether Trumpism has hit too close to home for many of these "Christians" who from time-to-time conveniently forget the Gospel message. Let's hope that Mr Douthat, and others, will remind the Christian Right of its newfound fondness of the Good Shepherd's teaching of mercy, humility, and compassion long after Mr Trump exits stage right from our political arena.
In the recently published book "The End of White Christian America," we learn much of what Douthat fails to discuss, especially regarding evangelical Protestantism. It's history in America is laced with racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious intolerance. Perhaps in fact white Christian nationalism comes to mind. Forgiving Mr Trump his past transgressions, which every Christian is commanded to do, has me wondering whether Trumpism has hit too close to home for many of these "Christians" who from time-to-time conveniently forget the Gospel message. Let's hope that Mr Douthat, and others, will remind the Christian Right of its newfound fondness of the Good Shepherd's teaching of mercy, humility, and compassion long after Mr Trump exits stage right from our political arena.
4
The abortion issue as an excuse to vote for Trump? Who would possibly annihilate entire populations by pressing the wrong button? Interesting point of view.
10
Douthat says that without the pull of some kind of religious conservatism, "the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed." Evidently he hasn't read the Old Testament recently. What could be more cruel than Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, what more tribal and dark than God's ordering Saul to commit genocide on an entire nation, not forgetting to kill all its cattle too, after all its men, women and children are dead?
Is that the kind of religious conservatism Douthat would say "cannot be revived," or the kind he would say "must be rebuilt"?
Is that the kind of religious conservatism Douthat would say "cannot be revived," or the kind he would say "must be rebuilt"?
8
You make it sound as if Clinton wants to stop conservative Christians from practicing. I have nothing against their practicing,I do not want them pushing their beliefs on me. Separation of Church and State. One part of the constitution republicans seem to ignore.
15
Universal health care, food stamps, disability insurance, Social Security for the old, universal education through college, caring more for others than about oneself...are generally absent in the Republican policy agenda. The core of Republican policy is anathema to Christians.
14
The Republican right must be rebuild, both the secular right and the religious right. The Republican right's collapse is due to their hypocrisy, both secularly and theologically.
The Republican right's secular hypocrisy is that they enlisted their base with promises of an improved life, but only strove to improve the profits of the wealthy. Trickle down economics and deregulation was proven wrong and ineffective 30 years ago, but it is still the foundation of their policy
Their theological hypocrisy is that they marched under the sign of the Cross and espoused the life of Christ, but only marched in the direction of imperial aggression and personal greed, being more "rich man" than Lazarus.
It has all come together in their support of Trump: the anti-Christ whom John the Baptist would call a viper and whom Christ would call an evildoer.
The blatant hypocrisy of the viper, evildoer Christian right is exposed for all to decry, even Christians like me, who cry for the wounds inflicted in the body of Christ by those who march in his name.
The Republican right's secular hypocrisy is that they enlisted their base with promises of an improved life, but only strove to improve the profits of the wealthy. Trickle down economics and deregulation was proven wrong and ineffective 30 years ago, but it is still the foundation of their policy
Their theological hypocrisy is that they marched under the sign of the Cross and espoused the life of Christ, but only marched in the direction of imperial aggression and personal greed, being more "rich man" than Lazarus.
It has all come together in their support of Trump: the anti-Christ whom John the Baptist would call a viper and whom Christ would call an evildoer.
The blatant hypocrisy of the viper, evildoer Christian right is exposed for all to decry, even Christians like me, who cry for the wounds inflicted in the body of Christ by those who march in his name.
10
Liberals are happy that the religious right is filled with hypocrites who only pay lip service to their lord's teachings?
Nope.
Not by a long shot.
In fact we are terribly disappointed.
We are disappointed that an entire movement can be so clueless about it's own tenants.
Preemptive wars, tax cuts for the rich, ignoring the poor and less well off, divisiveness, smug self righteousness and of course their marginalization of woman.
Liberals are happy?
Ross you owe us an apology.
Nope.
Not by a long shot.
In fact we are terribly disappointed.
We are disappointed that an entire movement can be so clueless about it's own tenants.
Preemptive wars, tax cuts for the rich, ignoring the poor and less well off, divisiveness, smug self righteousness and of course their marginalization of woman.
Liberals are happy?
Ross you owe us an apology.
11
In the absence of the kind of political power that the Iranian mullahs have seized, religion must earn its moral authority. The religious right's support of Donald Trump is proving to be one of its worst decisions in memory. Not only are they on their way to losing the political power they sought, but they've squandered away their moral authority in the process. When you make a pact with the devil, you'd better be sure the devil can deliver. (Jesus, of course, taught that one should not make such pacts in any event, regardless of how great the promised rewards. Perhaps Jesus was right.)
8
Recent email revelations of Hillary mocking religions should make us progressives shudder. Where is the tolerance that she preaches publicly? The tone and derision were chilling.
2
Trumps disregard and lack of knowledge for all things not concrening himself directly, i.e. poor and middle class people, other businesses, infrastructure, foriegn policy, global warming, diversity, human rights, and so on fits the single mindedness of the religiuos right perfectly. For Trump there is one truth - Donald Trump, not the teachings of a Jewish Holy Man whose golden rule is ignored every second by conservative Christians in our Republic.
11
The religious right has to end their push to make all of us live in a world that they alone create. They think their one and only god created America to be the one and only nation. They are misogynistic (most of them). They are racist (many of them). They want to have their own form of Christian Sharia Law. They want a Theocracy. Just look back at Ted Cruz and his father! Please help this country if someone becomes president who will want to shove their religion down all our throats. Because their religion is 'the best' or some such nonsense.
For those of us who are so tired of their bronze age Sky God, we say, please die a peaceful death Religious Right and let's all live in peace.
For those of us who are so tired of their bronze age Sky God, we say, please die a peaceful death Religious Right and let's all live in peace.
5
Ross, 1. "First, serious religious conservatives didn’t want Trump." Maybe not, but they sure are holding tight to him. 2. "Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy may not be a sufficient reason to hand the Oval Office to a man like Donald Trump". You're right. It isn't. So why even consider it. 3."religious conservatives are as divided as any other conservative faction over Trump". Again, Maybe, but it doesn't look that way from here. 4. "America needs a religious right." Ah, no, it doesn't. It may need religion, but it doesn't need religion in it's politics, especially not the profit driven hate mongering hypocrites that dominate the religious right.
10
Rational Americans are disgusted by the hypocrisy of the religious right's obsession with the God given rights of the unborn child, rights, which conveniently disappear for the convicted murderer. Rational Americans have had enough of the Right's nonsensical approach to contraception and sex education, and the consequent social disaster of teenage pregnancies and virtual child marriages common in the red states. Rational Americans have had it with the Right's vilification of their LGBT friends and family. But most of all they're disgusted by the holier-than-thou high priests of the Christian Right who hold sway over tens of thousands of followers and have the gall to moralize to the nation and who time and time again prove to be vain, self serving, licentious hypocrites.
9
I disagree with conservative religious people on many things - but most of those I've met are very good, very decent, very generous people.
I do not understand why they accept him as their standard-bearer. Why the silence?
I do not understand why they accept him as their standard-bearer. Why the silence?
1
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
It couldn't happen to a nicer group of people.
It couldn't happen to a nicer group of people.
6
I'll hazard a guess that deeply devout communities like the Amish and the Mennonites are horrified by Trump. I suspect that many orders, like the Trappists feel the same. These folks together are not a small part of the 'fundamentalist' population. For the more prominent conservative faith voices, on must ask is it 'pragmatically' legitimate to support Trump in order to block Hillary? I think not.
Interesting premise. Sounds like religion is needed for those who would otherwise tend towards immorality but not for those who are able to discern morality by themselves. Sounds right to me.
6
Religion is 80% ethics and ethics trumps religion and its cohort, religiosity. The remaining 20% is a mish-mash of human emotions. By the time the science of biology has run its course, human spirituality will supersede fanatical religion.
1
I agree with Ross that there is a need for the Christian ethos in our nation. I don't agree that it need be a hard right. Every great ship after all has an anchor for a reason.
1
How about the "legal and regulatory pressure" that a Trump (or any Republican presidency, for that matter) would bring to bear on liberal institutions, such as denying women the right to control their own bodies ("laws for the 'protection' of women's health"), denying gay and transgender people the same rights as conservative Republicans ("religious freedom laws"), making educational institutions at all levels merely instruments of Christian religious doctrine ("intelligent design-only laws, abstinence-only sex ed"), etc, etc, etc. Mr. Douthat, you really need to spend more time talking to liberals about why we are so concerned about the power of the Religious Right. Frankly, they scare the hell out of me. No pun intended.
8
Mr. Douthat's column is excellent, but he misunderstands to some extent the power, the durability and the commitment of what he characterizes as the 'Religious Right.' The political aspect of this group is a small portion of their membership, their beliefs and commitment. I should know: I am a member of an evangelical church, having left a more liberal church over its interpretation of the Bible. As Martin Luther pointed out in profound ways, the Bible is not that difficult to read; any precocious teenager, taking an SAT-style test, could read and interpret the first chapters of Paul's Letter to the Romans quite readily. The forces of political correctness do not like the content of the Bible; it stands as an impediment to their social and sexual preferences. The content of the Bible is a source of unending strength to believers, a source of unending irritation and exasperation to unbelievers, and is in the hands of a planet of 7 billion people. Not just this this generation, but generation after generation. There is nothing wrong at all with a little politically correct persecution for conservative Christians. If they read John Locke's Letter Concerning Toleration, they would understand how futile that will be. If you put John Bunyan in jail, all you get is Pilgrim's Progress.
17
Sorry to say, the religious right cannot be defended, as they want it both ways, as hypocrites do. There seems no virtue left, just opportunism by trying to defend the indefensible, a lecherous individual, irredeemably twisted into personal gain...at the cost of everybody else. That has been his dogma all along. And now defend that position? Give us a break!
5
When I start seeing millions of evangelical families adopting and trying to adopt children, (currently the number is about 135 thousand each year), and offer sex education then I'll believe they are sincere about unwanted babies.
But until then its more of the same from many religious groups-Hypocrisy.
But until then its more of the same from many religious groups-Hypocrisy.
6
What does it mean to be a Christian and against the Obama
Medicaid expansion like Cruz, Carson and Rubio? To be an adherent of the political dicta of sexual regulation nowhere in the gospels that now seem to define the Religious Right?
A cheer or two for Kasich and (yikes!) Pence who at least compromised blockage of the Medicaid expansion, perhaps be cause the felt a Chrustian opposition to a threat to many thousands of Lives of actually existing human beings.
Medicaid expansion like Cruz, Carson and Rubio? To be an adherent of the political dicta of sexual regulation nowhere in the gospels that now seem to define the Religious Right?
A cheer or two for Kasich and (yikes!) Pence who at least compromised blockage of the Medicaid expansion, perhaps be cause the felt a Chrustian opposition to a threat to many thousands of Lives of actually existing human beings.
"the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed" which means no change at all.
No support for the poor, for minorities, for women, for immigrants, for healthcare, for the environment. Just continuing effort to keep the rich and power as they are. Because, you know, somewhere in the Bible it says that's OK, and you can ignore all that other liberal stuff in there.
If they want a country where religion plays a major rule in government, there are plenty of them in other parts of the world.
No support for the poor, for minorities, for women, for immigrants, for healthcare, for the environment. Just continuing effort to keep the rich and power as they are. Because, you know, somewhere in the Bible it says that's OK, and you can ignore all that other liberal stuff in there.
If they want a country where religion plays a major rule in government, there are plenty of them in other parts of the world.
2
The fact that religion plays any part in this or any election is a blot on our nation.
I was raised as Roman Catholic but left the church and am now without any belief in any otherworldly invention.
Religious belief like my lack of same should be private and has no place in politics.
Individuals such as yourself may need a "religious right", but America needs nothing of the sort. America needs reason.
I was raised as Roman Catholic but left the church and am now without any belief in any otherworldly invention.
Religious belief like my lack of same should be private and has no place in politics.
Individuals such as yourself may need a "religious right", but America needs nothing of the sort. America needs reason.
3
The US does not "need" a religious right. It needs a moral center. As an atheist, I am fed up with religious people telling me I cannot possibly be an ethical human actor because I don't believe in God. I believe in mankind, and treating each other with care and respect. That's all we need, thanks very much.
3
I agree there is much of value in Christian religious thought that can inform our public life. Am I my brother's keeper? The parables of the Good Samaritan or of the Widow's mite.
But democracy asks for respect for the opposition and moving toward consensus. And if your politics are your religion then those who oppose your religious orthodoxy are apostate, not respected colleagues in public service. The options for apostasy are capitulation or condemnation. This does not serve a functioning democracy. How many examples of theocracy do we need before we are clear that this model does not turn out well?
But democracy asks for respect for the opposition and moving toward consensus. And if your politics are your religion then those who oppose your religious orthodoxy are apostate, not respected colleagues in public service. The options for apostasy are capitulation or condemnation. This does not serve a functioning democracy. How many examples of theocracy do we need before we are clear that this model does not turn out well?
1
Has Trump been to church on Sunday since he became republican nominee—excluding his fishing expeditions to black churches trying to reassure moderate voters that he's not a racist.
But of course he is.
But of course he is.
2
It would be nice if Moore were the true representative of the religious right. But Russ, he isn't. There are far too many of them salivating at the thought of supporting sociopaths like trump. The hypocritical religious right brought us Trump. Your party is responsible for running a total sociopath for president.
2
Christ nowhere advocates rape, and nowhere prohibited abortion. In earlier centuries, the Catholic Church and major Christian theologians accepted abortion in the first two trimesters of pregnancy, and when women's lives were endangered. The contemporary American opposition to abortion in every instance is not based on Christ's teaching.
Those who oppose abortion have every right not to have abortions. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. But abortion opponents have no right to impose their personal views on other, or their personal re-writing of Christ's teachings on others. Their claim that Christ opposed abortion is simply not supported by His words.
Those who oppose abortion have every right not to have abortions. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. But abortion opponents have no right to impose their personal views on other, or their personal re-writing of Christ's teachings on others. Their claim that Christ opposed abortion is simply not supported by His words.
1
“First, serious religious conservatives didn’t want Trump... only 15 percent of weekly churchgoers were steady Trump supporters from the start"
Whoa there, Ross. Where did you get the idea that weekly churchgoers necessarily consider themselves to be religious conservatives and/or tight-wad Republicans? They are followers of what they believe to be what Jesus taught. He hardly, in his day, was considered to be a religious conservative. I doubt that he would fit in that category today. Read again The Sermon on The Mount.
Whoa there, Ross. Where did you get the idea that weekly churchgoers necessarily consider themselves to be religious conservatives and/or tight-wad Republicans? They are followers of what they believe to be what Jesus taught. He hardly, in his day, was considered to be a religious conservative. I doubt that he would fit in that category today. Read again The Sermon on The Mount.
Its not just about abortion, the religious zealots won't stop until all contraception is criminalized. We may as well repeal the 19th amendment and quit letting women steal elections from mysoginsts. Lets make America great again, only white Christian men can vote.
2
I wonder what Jesus would think of the stock photo. A crucifixion, cast in silver, facing away from the viewer toward a bright artificial life and the flag of an awesome but flawed empire.
There is little question what he would have thought of the "religious right". Promising disciples, if they could cast aside their hangups over tax collectors and prostitutes. And their shows of piety. And their wealth. Mark 10:25
There is little question what he would have thought of the "religious right". Promising disciples, if they could cast aside their hangups over tax collectors and prostitutes. And their shows of piety. And their wealth. Mark 10:25
I always wonder, if abortion snuffs out a unique human life, why God performs so many. Is it not more reasonable to think that a developing fetus approaches humanity gradually along a continuum, crossing the line approximately at the moment of birth?
More cruelty is carried out in the name of the sanctity of life than I care to think about. I realize that this observation is peripheral to Mr. Douthat 's point, but he'd serve a thoughtful readership better by not slipping his religious beliefs into his columns as fact.
More cruelty is carried out in the name of the sanctity of life than I care to think about. I realize that this observation is peripheral to Mr. Douthat 's point, but he'd serve a thoughtful readership better by not slipping his religious beliefs into his columns as fact.
4
Unfortunately too many people who claim to be among the religious right
are willing to accept Donald Trump's adulterous sins because
they share his hatred of minorities and foreigners.
These people are not true Christians. They are hypocrites who pretend to
love God and each other, but their hearts are filled with greed and hate.
are willing to accept Donald Trump's adulterous sins because
they share his hatred of minorities and foreigners.
These people are not true Christians. They are hypocrites who pretend to
love God and each other, but their hearts are filled with greed and hate.
A survey of people that attend a Trump rally would show that they "all" are religiously conservative. Many go to some evangelical church however still drink tons of beer, cavort like the devil and sin full speed ahead. Further the women get knocked up and often get abortions just like the norm. Evangelical anything is now exposed by Trump and Pence who between them could not get two seconds of Heaven's time.
As an Episcopal priest, I am intrigued by your last paragraph in particular.
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed." I would edit it, severely, and agree completely with "... without the pull of transcendence, the future ... promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
It is a canard to suppose that religious conservatism, in itself, by itself, lends a pull or impetus to transcendence. Indeed, in my experience such conservatism leads to less transcendence and more denial of transcendent or at least, transforming spirituality. (Yes, I know, spirituality is as slippery a term as transcendence ... )
But when you bring in transcendence, you must leave behind conservative/liberal, right/left ideas and ideologies. Consider, Ross, the word itself ... its roots ...
Trans-
Transcendence, transformation, transmutation, transportation, transgender..
To go across, to travel beyond, to expand borders and possibilities ... conservative religious ideologies do not go beyond but compress possibility.
And yes, without that "trans-" in there, the future for all of us "promises to be tribal, cruel, ad very dark indeed."
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed." I would edit it, severely, and agree completely with "... without the pull of transcendence, the future ... promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
It is a canard to suppose that religious conservatism, in itself, by itself, lends a pull or impetus to transcendence. Indeed, in my experience such conservatism leads to less transcendence and more denial of transcendent or at least, transforming spirituality. (Yes, I know, spirituality is as slippery a term as transcendence ... )
But when you bring in transcendence, you must leave behind conservative/liberal, right/left ideas and ideologies. Consider, Ross, the word itself ... its roots ...
Trans-
Transcendence, transformation, transmutation, transportation, transgender..
To go across, to travel beyond, to expand borders and possibilities ... conservative religious ideologies do not go beyond but compress possibility.
And yes, without that "trans-" in there, the future for all of us "promises to be tribal, cruel, ad very dark indeed."
2
Only in the U.S. is the word religious followed by the word right. One describes spiritual beliefs while the other political and socioeconomic positions. Mr. Douhat proposes that church and state don't really need separation in our political process.
1
From today's NY Times review of books: "Notably, the Nazis never won a majority of the vote in any free election. Hitler came to power because other, more respectable politicians thought they would be able to control him.
Once in office, Hitler quickly proved them wrong. With dizzying speed, he banned and imprisoned political opponents, had his party rivals murdered, overrode the constitution and made himself the center of a cult of personality to rival Stalin’s. These moves did not dent Hitler’s popularity. On the contrary, after years of internecine ideological warfare, the German people went wild with enthusiasm for a man who claimed to be above politics."
Once in office, Hitler quickly proved them wrong. With dizzying speed, he banned and imprisoned political opponents, had his party rivals murdered, overrode the constitution and made himself the center of a cult of personality to rival Stalin’s. These moves did not dent Hitler’s popularity. On the contrary, after years of internecine ideological warfare, the German people went wild with enthusiasm for a man who claimed to be above politics."
2
I always love how Ross implies most Catholics are conservative ("drifting toward Hillary"). A simple overlay of a map of Catholic population in the US and a map of the blue states shows that the two maps are nearly identical. Conn, Mass, RI, NY, NJ are the most heavily Catholic states, and some of the darkest blue.
1
Can undemocratic, patriarchal male supremacist religions ever be democratic and lovers of female equality?
How can a girl, growing in a "devout" Catholic or Mormon family, learning day by day that girls have an obligation to make way for their brothers who have a special place to run the world, ever wake to their own power and gifts that can help America leap to a future free of discrimination against women?
If you can answer that then one can defend the religious right, otherwise, there is no defense at all for them.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene
How can a girl, growing in a "devout" Catholic or Mormon family, learning day by day that girls have an obligation to make way for their brothers who have a special place to run the world, ever wake to their own power and gifts that can help America leap to a future free of discrimination against women?
If you can answer that then one can defend the religious right, otherwise, there is no defense at all for them.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene
The religious right has always been blatantly hypocritical and willing to bend their religious beliefs, whenever it suits them, to serve their own secular self-interests. They claim to be Christians, yet behave in astonishingly unChrist-like ways. In fact, much of their religiosity is the antithesis of what Jesus preached. Their holier-than-thou, we know-what's-best-for-you attitude is a betrayal of and an affront to their professed savior. Humilty, doubt, and empathy are foreign words to them. They have no respect for any other world view save their own. Trump is both the second coming and the apocalypse they have long predicted. It is amusing to watch them try to rationalize it all.
6
Anti abortion forces especially on the Republican right want to force unwanted births and then to promulgate policys that will starve them, remove health care, undereducated them. The hypocrisy is evident.
4
Well—here are some dog whistles so finely tuned that even NYT folks don't detect them. Anti-choice was never the sine qua non of the conservative churches until Koop and Schaeffer propagandized so effectively. Some conservative denominations had to abandon staked-out pro-choice positions. Why did that catch on and displace other equivalent tenets of Christian social teaching so completely? Because it is bound up with keeping women "in their place." Fear and loathing of a female commander-in-chief accounts for a great of this political season's craziness. It is particularly poignant after eight years of fearing and loathing a commander-in-chief of color. I'm so glad that it's about to happen!
1
It's all very ironic. I think Hillary Clinton has been much influenced and motivated by her Methodist upbringing. Look at the causes she has worked for over the years. Then look at Trump who has only ever looked out for himself. Yet, the religious right claims him as their man of choice.
6
It's not religious belief that motivates the right wing. It's not a longing for the divine or for transcendence of mortality. It's just the sordid, age old desire of men to control and punish sexuality in general and female sexuality in particular.
3
Sending money to Africa to fight AIDS while arguing that homosexuality is a sin; believing in the sanctity of life while beating the drums for the Iraq war; fighting for criminal justice reform while calling addicts moral failures; wary of Shariah law yet citing Leviticus. The overriding theme of the religious right is hypocrisy. Does anyone outside of Christian communities turn to them for moral insight? No. But that doesn't stop them from evangelizing, that is, imposing themselves upon our lives, our laws, and our bodies.
You make reference to Erick Erickson for having the courage to stand up to Trump. Last time I checked (op-ed in the NYTimes, 10/14/16) he is resolving the dilemma by giving up on a federalist vision of America, turning to a future where local municipalities can deny services to gays; a future where there are no social services because neighbors will provide for each other out of Christian love; a future where the GOP can't win a general election but can dominate their constitutions on a state level.
"Tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed." I'll concede that we need a right-of-center party in this nation. I'll also concede that religion will continue to play an important organizing force in the role of some people's lives. But the religious right is destined for what Hegel called "the dustbin of history."
By the way, "every abortion is a unique human life snuffed out forever." Thanks for stigmatizing women who choose not to give birth, Douthat.
You make reference to Erick Erickson for having the courage to stand up to Trump. Last time I checked (op-ed in the NYTimes, 10/14/16) he is resolving the dilemma by giving up on a federalist vision of America, turning to a future where local municipalities can deny services to gays; a future where there are no social services because neighbors will provide for each other out of Christian love; a future where the GOP can't win a general election but can dominate their constitutions on a state level.
"Tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed." I'll concede that we need a right-of-center party in this nation. I'll also concede that religion will continue to play an important organizing force in the role of some people's lives. But the religious right is destined for what Hegel called "the dustbin of history."
By the way, "every abortion is a unique human life snuffed out forever." Thanks for stigmatizing women who choose not to give birth, Douthat.
3
What one forgets is that "liberalism" use to have strong religious members, think William Jennings Bryan, just to name one example. Look at the issues where the Catholic Church and American Liberals be they of the Clinton, Obama, or Sanders ilk agree. While upholding the rights of women and LGBT there would seems to be ways to compromise and outreach to religious Americans, it might mean a few more pro-life congress members who might oppose the Dems on a few issues like court appointments but support them on many other issues. They way American politics use to be like before today's extreme polarization. Bringing affordable healthcare to the people and better education to children, protecting the environment, and promoting fair wages and better working conditions seems like doing God's work to me!
2
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries."
- James Madison
- James Madison
7
I've never heard the anti abortion forces propose a law banning war. I suppose they would say, in general they're against it, but then make endless exceptions regardless the inevitable death toll of innocent babies, children, men and women and even the unborn.
As Tocqueville acutely observed, when religion "is mingled with the bitter passions of this world,it is constrained to defend [despicable] allies." And such alliances do more harm to religion, it robs it of the moral force to influence society. Indeed, one of the reasons the Hebrew prophets were able to shape the mores of ancient Israel is that they stood separate from the throne and altar and pointed to ethical absolutes beyond the whim of human passions and interests. The reduction of American churches to appendages of political parties is one of the reasons, Christianity as lost is moral influence.
Let the religious right die and may they take all the evangelical hypocrites with them.
Abortion is the issue? If the religious right is so against abortion, then they should be champions of comprehensive sex education and affordable birth control. The best way to prevent abortions is to empower people who are sexually active to not get pregnant. The abstinence only programs that the religious right foisted on us during the Bush era were abysmal failures! People don't live by biblical principles and we need policies reflective of that. Good riddance to the religious right and their evangelical cousins.
A Christian
Abortion is the issue? If the religious right is so against abortion, then they should be champions of comprehensive sex education and affordable birth control. The best way to prevent abortions is to empower people who are sexually active to not get pregnant. The abstinence only programs that the religious right foisted on us during the Bush era were abysmal failures! People don't live by biblical principles and we need policies reflective of that. Good riddance to the religious right and their evangelical cousins.
A Christian
4
Religion has got to be one of the great disappointments of growing up. As a child, all that warmth and light in Sunday school. You might expect that religion could become a great moral force able to defeat racism, partisan strife, and all sorts of other human ills. But look at the reality, and despair.
Once in a while, someone like Pope Francis tries to pull the flock in a better direction, but the job is too big for one man. Can't anyone else bring themselves to change course?
Once in a while, someone like Pope Francis tries to pull the flock in a better direction, but the job is too big for one man. Can't anyone else bring themselves to change course?
I feel sorry for Mr. Douthat, who has to develop convoluted arguments to justify the desire of religion to rule the rest of us. Yes, the Religious Right has every right to their views on abortion and other issues related to personal behavior, but they have no right to impose their views on the great majority of the country who see personal freedom embodied in freedom of choice. Learn to live with Xanax or Valium, Ross. It'll get you thr4ough the day.
3
Why is it that the two worst presidents of the 20th century were both Republicans and self-appointed conservatives because of their tendency toward authoritarianism, unmitigated lying, and misuse of governrment power -- namely Richard Nixon and Donald Trump.
Mr. Douthat's implication that Christian conservatives are needed because they alone provide "the pull of transcendence" ignores the spiritual and humanitarian contributions of those who are not socially conservative. What about the social justice work of religious liberals? Belief in Biblical inerrancy or fundamentalism are not requirements for a life of devotion, good works, or a strong moral compass.
2
From everything I've learned about Jesus, including the very Scripture that these folks quote to prove that they are right, this American version of Christianity is almost the opposite of what He taught. Mr Trump embodies the very spirit of the anti-christ, a preversion of the Christian faith. This is so obvious that these folks must be under a spell to not see it. To them, the Truth is a lie and the Lie is the truth. I've always avoided painting things as black and white or good and evil because we can all be deceived and misled but in Trumps case there seems to be a very evil spirit at work.
1
The Christian right, quite simply, is positioned against social justice movements. Historically it was aligned with anti-abolition forces and then, as now, it savages its political opponents as heretics. That Christian sect - and the religious right is a sect - has actually destroyed Christianity as a "civilizing" force in the US.
I remember when there was a still real opposition to their version of the faith. Good priests and nuns and devout persons of all faiths marched for civil rights and humane governance, against cynical warfare and real government corruption, pressed for a broad ecuminism and struggled to protect authentic Christian values from the astonishingly pharisaical standards of politicized right wing Christianity.
They were systematically attacked as heretics by the huge commercial enterprise of Republican evangelicals, and you don't hear much from them in this country any more. My grandmother's wise and gentle Christianity had nothing to do with these sleazy characters, nor does the deeply sustaining, socially aware faith of African American churches or the hidden efforts of many individuals to practice the tolerance, compassion, honest humility and real virtue that Jesus actually taught.
When outraged atheists today make their case for religion as a social evil today, the Christianity that they reference and rightly excoriate is that of conservative fundamentalism. That movement is the Evangelical's legacy.
I remember when there was a still real opposition to their version of the faith. Good priests and nuns and devout persons of all faiths marched for civil rights and humane governance, against cynical warfare and real government corruption, pressed for a broad ecuminism and struggled to protect authentic Christian values from the astonishingly pharisaical standards of politicized right wing Christianity.
They were systematically attacked as heretics by the huge commercial enterprise of Republican evangelicals, and you don't hear much from them in this country any more. My grandmother's wise and gentle Christianity had nothing to do with these sleazy characters, nor does the deeply sustaining, socially aware faith of African American churches or the hidden efforts of many individuals to practice the tolerance, compassion, honest humility and real virtue that Jesus actually taught.
When outraged atheists today make their case for religion as a social evil today, the Christianity that they reference and rightly excoriate is that of conservative fundamentalism. That movement is the Evangelical's legacy.
2
It is good they are referred to as the "Religious Right". While stridently sanctimonious, politically opinionated, and indeed Rightist, their thought processes are have little to do with the concepts and practice of Christianity, biblical, or otherwise. Interestingly, they also make poor bedfellows with Libertarians, who ostensibly would embrace migrating moral decision-making towards the individual, thus honoring that God-given freedom typically cited. Republicans are spending a lot of time defending the indefensible these days.
1
The Fundamentalist Holier than thou? Oh please.
Hopefully the opiate of the masses will finally begin to wear off. It has been a terrible 2000 years what with untold millions murdered in the name of an invisible and unprovable sky genie.
Aint nothing but too many cults perpetuating intolerance.
Hopefully the opiate of the masses will finally begin to wear off. It has been a terrible 2000 years what with untold millions murdered in the name of an invisible and unprovable sky genie.
Aint nothing but too many cults perpetuating intolerance.
2
Moral courage is one of the first prerequisites to a prophetic outsider's chance of being taken seriously. No moral courage, no authenticity. The religious right has thrown moral courage overboard in embracing Trump, along with common decency.
2
I think the self named "Moral Majority" is more aptly referred to as the Con-Christians:
1. They accentuate the negative - exclusion, punishment, sin; virtually ignoring "The Good News of the Lord". All cons and few or no pros.
2. They really are con men; they con themselves and attempt to con others into believing that their political views are divinely given - perfect and immutable. A toned down version of the divine right of Kings.
3. They treat their politics as a religion - hell is where dissenters go. They put their politics first. They are right wingers who just happen to be religious. - so the name should reflect the order.
1. They accentuate the negative - exclusion, punishment, sin; virtually ignoring "The Good News of the Lord". All cons and few or no pros.
2. They really are con men; they con themselves and attempt to con others into believing that their political views are divinely given - perfect and immutable. A toned down version of the divine right of Kings.
3. They treat their politics as a religion - hell is where dissenters go. They put their politics first. They are right wingers who just happen to be religious. - so the name should reflect the order.
2
Thank you for writing this article. I am a born again Christian. I am really torn about this election. I can't vote for Trump. I do not like Clinton. I want neither family to be in the W.H. Push has come to shove. MD will go democratic anyway, not sure how much my vote counts in this state. I might vote for Hillary and then vote Republican down ballot. I don't agree with "abortion" at any stage. I don't want the Supreme Court to tilt more to the left. I believe that the liberal Left (as a former liberal myself ) has eroded the social values of our society. Bottom line is that politics is not the Saviour for America, and ultimately Believers in Christ (not the Religious Right as you like to call us) will have to have a revival in America. Only the Gospel will ultimately save. I grieve for America because we are eroding with either party.
1
I don't agree at all.
We need more, much more, morality in our politics and political leaders, not often empty words of religious adherence. If they get their moral codes from their religion, terrific. Let their moral code be evident in their governance, not their particular religion. That should be part of their personal life, shared with their families and religious communities.
We need more, much more, morality in our politics and political leaders, not often empty words of religious adherence. If they get their moral codes from their religion, terrific. Let their moral code be evident in their governance, not their particular religion. That should be part of their personal life, shared with their families and religious communities.
3
"And that’s without getting into the legal and regulatory pressure that a Clinton administration could bring to bear on conservative religious institutions,..."
Yes, yes, religious affiliated institutions must be able to reach into a taxpayers wallet, but deny that citizen services for any reason they see fit.
Yes, yes, religious affiliated institutions must be able to reach into a taxpayers wallet, but deny that citizen services for any reason they see fit.
4
The Religious Right is truly a pathetic racket. It's hypocrisy is without bounds.
When Bill Clinton has consensual sex with a woman not his wife, it is cause for impeachment (and please spare us the pretense that it was "about the lying", not about the sex.) Meanwhile, Trump, also while married, sleeps with other women, and has child out of wedlock (O.K., O.K.: "before" wedlock).
Clearly the Religious Right has no moral standing and is simply a beard for big corporate and financial interests who want the electorate distracted from rising income inequality and stagnant wages, so they can increase their wealth exponentially. Surely these religious and "moral" allies of the GOP money machine get their cut of the loot.
When Bill Clinton has consensual sex with a woman not his wife, it is cause for impeachment (and please spare us the pretense that it was "about the lying", not about the sex.) Meanwhile, Trump, also while married, sleeps with other women, and has child out of wedlock (O.K., O.K.: "before" wedlock).
Clearly the Religious Right has no moral standing and is simply a beard for big corporate and financial interests who want the electorate distracted from rising income inequality and stagnant wages, so they can increase their wealth exponentially. Surely these religious and "moral" allies of the GOP money machine get their cut of the loot.
8
I am a Catholic with religion coming out of my ears having attended Benedictine and Jesuit schools from kinder thorough graduate school. I have not been drifting towards Clinton because I have always been a liberal. Most of my Catholic friends are liberal. I don't know why but Catholics tend to be liberal. We talk about it every so often and have concluded it liberates us from our guilt. Kind of fun actually.
4
" But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of of the right promises to be tribal, cruel and very dark indeed". And what will be the premises of this so-called rebuilding, Ross? Anti-gay, anti-women's rights and anti-planet, dark fundamentalist colors woven with bright and shiny white Christian piety, presented as a new garb that the religious right will wear as they renew their assault on all the hard-won progressive achievements of our liberal democracy? For nothing changes in the heart, Ross, when you blindly follow the cruel injunctions set down more than two thousand years ago. For me, the real transcendence comes from our ever expanding scientific knowledge of our place in the universe and not from the myths created by our ignorant, tribal ancestors. I know it breaks your heart, Ross, but I, for one, would not be at all sorry to see the religious right go the way of the Dodo bird.
8
The so called leaders of the religious right are not men but only the ghosts of men, in simple parlance hypocrites without a principle to stand on. What is egregoius is their presumption to speak as if with the blessing and authority of God. For them, it's about bettering their position in life, not working on behalf of a cause greater than themselves.
6
Beyond Trump, and beyond the internal machinations and connivances of both the GOP and the politically active religious right, the simple fact is that they need no defense... because none is possible or legitimate. The religious right wants to legislate and enforce its morals, principles, and practices (despite their internal inconsistencies) throughout our nation. Our nation cannot become a theocracy without becoming less and weaker than we are now, and without abnegating one of the pillars of our foundation. We are, happily and by design, a diverse and pluralistic society. We are not and should never become a theocracy.
6
Transcendence brings absolutist hubris. Trump is its product. Religious folk need to be humble. Start from there and build a proper religious movement preaching love, sympathy for the poor and weak, respect for all, yes including women.
7
Anyone claiming to be a member of the religious right who continues to endorse Donald Trump is a phony. One of the most sacred tenets of Christianity is the expression of genuine contrition. Donald Trump has never come close to showing genuine contrition and the religious right know it but they are placing political expediency above true religious conviction. But what is the tipping point? What more vulgarity and disdain for women, minorities, and immigrants does this man have to show to alienate the religious right?
9
I don't think much of religion, and I will gladly take a Biblethumper over any kind of leftist. Religious morals roughly line up with nationalism, whereas leftist morals are an expression of childlike ignorance.
What most Americans fail to understand is that religion should be used as a bonding agent for society, its teachings are not really that important. Think of it as another identity tag to differentiate between your own vs others. That puts a shiv through the idea that "we're all just humans", and it is that purpose for which religion should be valued.
What most Americans fail to understand is that religion should be used as a bonding agent for society, its teachings are not really that important. Think of it as another identity tag to differentiate between your own vs others. That puts a shiv through the idea that "we're all just humans", and it is that purpose for which religion should be valued.
2
I am more than willing to accept that abortion is a thorny issue with respectable and irreconcilable opinions on all sides of the question. What I can't abide is the religious right's inability to distinguish between sin and crime. Catholic and evangelical churchmen have every right to preach that abortion is a sin. They don't have the right to criminalize it anymore than the Catholic Church can criminalize birth control.
And it's ironic that the religious right is willing to forgive Trump's male sexual aggression for the sake of condemning Hillary's feminist tolerance of abortion.
And it's ironic that the religious right is willing to forgive Trump's male sexual aggression for the sake of condemning Hillary's feminist tolerance of abortion.
21
Trump hasn't shown that religious conservatives have "no real moral substance". He's merely shown that their priorities are confused. For example, the Bible has a great deal to say about adultery and nothing to say about abortion, so favoring Trump over Clinton despite Trump's cheerleading of adultery is putting one's personal concerns about abortion above God's words.
9
The religious right remains a black and white analog throwback in a digital culture; a fossilized anachronism headed for the history books.
How has it made our Country better? By offering us the the wisdom of Falwell and Reed? Alex Jones? Certainly not by representing the true teachings and morality of Jesus. Nor by offering compassion to the less fortunate; indeed, we've heard only judgement and condemnation from it's leaders' mouths.
Now, we bear full witness to it's ultimate hypocrisy - the blatant willingness to sell it's soul in support of the most vile and unqualified presidential candidate in our Country's history.
The charlatans of the religious right continue to dig their own grave with the same self-serving, holier than thou shovel used to heap scorn upon those who seek true wisdom, kindness and mercy.
How has it made our Country better? By offering us the the wisdom of Falwell and Reed? Alex Jones? Certainly not by representing the true teachings and morality of Jesus. Nor by offering compassion to the less fortunate; indeed, we've heard only judgement and condemnation from it's leaders' mouths.
Now, we bear full witness to it's ultimate hypocrisy - the blatant willingness to sell it's soul in support of the most vile and unqualified presidential candidate in our Country's history.
The charlatans of the religious right continue to dig their own grave with the same self-serving, holier than thou shovel used to heap scorn upon those who seek true wisdom, kindness and mercy.
17
Teen pregnancy and abortion rates have dropped like a stone since 2009, Obamacare and more access to education and birth control has dropped both rates. Is a reduction in the number of abortions a worthy goal? Or is control and patriarchy the only way the religious right will take?
26
It was never about Christian values that they fought for. It was about authority and the submission of people to their ideas.
Sure, they claimed to be "pro-life", but they always voted for the death penalty.
Yes, they sent billions to Africa, but did they do for black people dying from AIDS or heroin overdose at home?
The always banged on about "the Truth" but they denied science, blocked scientific funding and fought science at schools, even though a country without science will sink as surely as a man trying to walk on water.
Yes, Trump makes Nixon look cuddly, but conservatism was never compassionate or filled with light.
This religious right had this coming.
Sure, they claimed to be "pro-life", but they always voted for the death penalty.
Yes, they sent billions to Africa, but did they do for black people dying from AIDS or heroin overdose at home?
The always banged on about "the Truth" but they denied science, blocked scientific funding and fought science at schools, even though a country without science will sink as surely as a man trying to walk on water.
Yes, Trump makes Nixon look cuddly, but conservatism was never compassionate or filled with light.
This religious right had this coming.
34
the religious right consists of people who believe in creationism and have other similar ridiculous, ant-scientific beliefs so they cannot be expected to be either intelligent or knowledgeable in choosing which candidate to support. It's only in private, that people of intelligence will acknowledge the profoundly anti-intellectual thought of the religious and dismiss them as the 'know nothings' they are - their votes are worth getting but their opinions on matters that require rational thinking are not worthy of consideration.
13
"...because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
This is actually a fairly accurate description of the contemporary religious right. Besides the blatant hypocrisy of evangelicals supporting a Mephistopheles-like candidate, the religious right has sacrificed its rationality on the altar of religious dogma: specifically, if abortion is murder. there are millions of murderers living freely among us.
The bible-thumping clown that was runner-up to Mr. Trump in the Republican primaries offers no comfort to rational people either. His followers genuinely appear to desire some sort of Christian theocracy.
Religious beliefs are fine. Fundamentalism needs to disappear.
This is actually a fairly accurate description of the contemporary religious right. Besides the blatant hypocrisy of evangelicals supporting a Mephistopheles-like candidate, the religious right has sacrificed its rationality on the altar of religious dogma: specifically, if abortion is murder. there are millions of murderers living freely among us.
The bible-thumping clown that was runner-up to Mr. Trump in the Republican primaries offers no comfort to rational people either. His followers genuinely appear to desire some sort of Christian theocracy.
Religious beliefs are fine. Fundamentalism needs to disappear.
26
"the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
Sorry to take that out of context but it best expresses what many of us fear for our country if the fanatics are not reined-in. Yes, I did indeed use that most hateful and feared word 'fanatic'. Most of us, but not all of us, can easily see what fanaticism leads to simply by looking to Islam over the last 66 years. I choose that time because that is the amount of time I have been alive so I can attest to what I have witnessed. I've known or had Muslim neighbors and co-workers since the 60's. During that time the Muslims I knew were no different that everyone else. Some religions do eat something while others don't drink something. What looked to me were the Amish. Then in Middle-east Islam began to move backwards, as it still does. That, Mr. Douthat, is what fanaticism is. It is the age of darkness descending over the world again. The religious right is no different in its religiosity than the Islamic right (or fundamentalism, if you prefer). All religious fanaticism works this way and it continues its descent while dragging everyone near it's vortex with it. While it appears to be a safeguard against chaos in the world to the youth and a source of ever increasing power to the initiates it is in fact a cage that becomes ever more crowded and suffocating.
No, we don't and no one does, need the religious right which is nothing more than communism led by religion that uses god as an excuse.
Sorry to take that out of context but it best expresses what many of us fear for our country if the fanatics are not reined-in. Yes, I did indeed use that most hateful and feared word 'fanatic'. Most of us, but not all of us, can easily see what fanaticism leads to simply by looking to Islam over the last 66 years. I choose that time because that is the amount of time I have been alive so I can attest to what I have witnessed. I've known or had Muslim neighbors and co-workers since the 60's. During that time the Muslims I knew were no different that everyone else. Some religions do eat something while others don't drink something. What looked to me were the Amish. Then in Middle-east Islam began to move backwards, as it still does. That, Mr. Douthat, is what fanaticism is. It is the age of darkness descending over the world again. The religious right is no different in its religiosity than the Islamic right (or fundamentalism, if you prefer). All religious fanaticism works this way and it continues its descent while dragging everyone near it's vortex with it. While it appears to be a safeguard against chaos in the world to the youth and a source of ever increasing power to the initiates it is in fact a cage that becomes ever more crowded and suffocating.
No, we don't and no one does, need the religious right which is nothing more than communism led by religion that uses god as an excuse.
32
The so-called "religious right" should not be defended. This is a band of neanderthals that tout The Bible over The Constitution and Religious Rights over Human Rights. They want Creation taught alongside Evolution and think the Earth is 6,000 years old. They tout Magic over Science.
This is a group of people that wants to take America backward via their special brand of brainwashing, indoctrination and mind control.
Moreover, Mr. Douthat seems to suggest that religion has a place in politics. It does not and should not, not only because of "separation of Church and State". No, it doesn't belong in politics - or government - because religion is merely a personal preference - a hobby, if you will. It's a hobby that not every one has, and apparently one that fewer people have with each passing year.
All hobbies are protected by the First Amendment - that's all the defense religion needs.
This is a group of people that wants to take America backward via their special brand of brainwashing, indoctrination and mind control.
Moreover, Mr. Douthat seems to suggest that religion has a place in politics. It does not and should not, not only because of "separation of Church and State". No, it doesn't belong in politics - or government - because religion is merely a personal preference - a hobby, if you will. It's a hobby that not every one has, and apparently one that fewer people have with each passing year.
All hobbies are protected by the First Amendment - that's all the defense religion needs.
52
The reason support for the Christian Right's is waning is the group's insistence on legislatively imposing their values on others. Some of those "values" end up discriminating against the basic rights of people in the community due to a selective reading and interpretation of a sacred text. The Christian Right has to learn to coexist in an America where there is no citizenship requirement to be religious at all. The influence of religious beliefs stop at the edge of your front yard and don't encroach into mine.
51
I would be moresympathetic to the reigious right's so-called culture of life if it did not begin and end with the fetus. I'm far more concerned with the lives of children, adults and the planet.
55
The problem (one of many) with the Religious Right is that they automatically assume people who are not religious have no moral values, no standards, no integrity.
Being old, growing up in the narrow-minded and stifling religion of the evangelical church, I learned early that to be a christian was not always being a good person. I saw the hate whites had for blacks during segregation. I saw the way they treated anyone they disapproved of and they disapproved of a great many with a great many reasons.
Now our country is facing what I grew up with.
Being old, growing up in the narrow-minded and stifling religion of the evangelical church, I learned early that to be a christian was not always being a good person. I saw the hate whites had for blacks during segregation. I saw the way they treated anyone they disapproved of and they disapproved of a great many with a great many reasons.
Now our country is facing what I grew up with.
61
Very well written and very thoughtful. More than several millennial evangelicals have come to me in the past month asking "what do I do on Election Day". Interestingly, they seem not to like Hillary because "she's a liar and a career politician". Young evangelicals have the opportunity in the next four years to help redefine the Christian voter. While I'm certain abortion rights would be front and center, I'm not so certain opposing marriage equality or supporting gun rights will be near the top of their list.
17
Thank you, Ross Douthat, for your usual thoughtful column. It is a great pity that the abortion issue has had such a deeply divisive effect on our political life. There are many countries with a Christian heritage and modern abortion laws where this has not happened. In any event, what is supposed to be so awful about letting people make up their own minds about whether or not it is morally permissible to terminate a pregnancy? If the right to control one's own fertility is not a human right, then there are none.
I agree with you that there is a need for transcendence in our public life, but I will continue to criticize those whose transcendence comes wrapped in an indefensible Biblical literalism and its consequent rejection of science, as well as in a staunch resistance to women's rights in all their forms, most particularly reproductive rights. Religion must not be equated with reactionary political and social views.
I agree with you that there is a need for transcendence in our public life, but I will continue to criticize those whose transcendence comes wrapped in an indefensible Biblical literalism and its consequent rejection of science, as well as in a staunch resistance to women's rights in all their forms, most particularly reproductive rights. Religion must not be equated with reactionary political and social views.
3
Sorry, but a know-nothing like Marco Rubio or a pompous blowhard like Ted Cruz only look moderately reasonable when compared to a sociopath like Donald Trump. In 2016 America, neither one of those men are Presidential material. More to the Douthat's presumed point: If either Rubio or Cruz are considered representative of the "serious" religious right, then Douthat's dream of political relevance for conservative religion in America is becoming more unlikely with each passing day.
3
I am sure other commenters will destroy your point individually. My biggest problem is with number 4. We absolutely do not need a religious right. or a religious anything, influencing policy. When you start from the position that magical sky gods have human personalities, you are capable of believing anything. If we just allowed atheists, who treat people as equals and believe in community, and are capable of empathy, to participate in making rational decisions, we would all be better off. We do not need believers in fantasy scenarios telling the sane among us how to behave.
1
Pence, a heartbeat away from the presidency, doesn't believe in evolution and dinosaurs roamed the Earth with humans. He also wants creationism to be taught as an alternative to evolution in public schools.
There is no defense for his thinking.
Trump/Pence, making America a 19th Cent. Country again.
There is no defense for his thinking.
Trump/Pence, making America a 19th Cent. Country again.
3
But Ross religion itself makes things tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed. So Lucretius said in the 3rd century B.C.E. To quote from Stephen Greenblatt's The Swerve: Religions always promises us hope and love, but their deep underlying structure is cruelty. That is why they are drawn to fantasies of retribution and why they inevitably stir up anxiety amongst their adherents. The quisential emblem of religion-and the clearest manifestation of the perversity that lies at its core-is the sacrifice of a child by a parent. And this was written before the advent of Christianity!
We will just have to muddle through without the Gods, I am afraid.
We will just have to muddle through without the Gods, I am afraid.
1
The right's abortion stance makes no sense, since poor women will go for backroom methods, and well to do women will jump in a plane to go where it's safe and legal.
They also ignore talk of casual sex that creates pregnancies in the first place.
The simplest thing that can eliminate abortions, would be the "morning after pill", which stops the whole process. These pills can be made to obtain as easy as aspirin.
They also ignore talk of casual sex that creates pregnancies in the first place.
The simplest thing that can eliminate abortions, would be the "morning after pill", which stops the whole process. These pills can be made to obtain as easy as aspirin.
1
As an evangelical Christian I look forward to the demise of the "Religious Right. Since the 1980's my faith has been sold out for political gain, the Gospel having been made subservient to the Republican agenda in exchange for so called "pro life" policies that seek to "protect the unborn" while at the same time showing callous indifference to the life of anyone outside the womb. My hope is that with the hypocrisy of Jerry Falwell Jr and other modern day Pharisees being exposed by their continued support of Trump despite his daily reminders that he has no moral center, evangelicals can get back to championing the whole Gospel of Christ without having to contend with the damage done by the Religious Right,
4
Why equate religion with the right? I'm religious and liberal. Each week I attend religious services, serve as a trustee, contribute money to support my religion, raise my children with religious instruction, and vote Democratic in support of liberal programs. I don't feel any attraction to the Republican party, which seems to me to be a haven for selfishness and narrow mindedness. I don't think America needs a religious right. I think the Constitution has it correctly; religion and the state coexisting separately.
3
Ross continually writes these very odd essays that are seemingly detached from reality. The religious right's heritage is inextricably linked to slavery. Northern Baptists worked to end slavery and Southern Baptists used biblical passages to justify a deeply noxious and toxic institution.
Very few white Southern fundamentalists fought to end segregation. When the public schools were segregated in the south; fundamentalists created so-called "Christian" academies to maintain segregation. Bob Jones, among others, continued to his dying day to argue that African Americans were 'inferior." Members of the religious right such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell Jr. and Billy Graham are using scripture and their "moral" authority to justify Trump's vile view of women.
The religious right can rail all that it wants about the unborn; but, what about the living? They continually refuse to care for the weakest in society and strongly support public policy that demeans and destroys them. For example, why is the United States the only industrial nation that doesn't have universal healthcare, a national paid family leave policy, lack of decent vacations like those enjoyed by citizens of other countries, etc.
The religious right is tied to Mammon -- it always has been since the days of slavery. Ross ends his essay about the need for transcendence; all that I see that emanates from the right and its religious right enablers is "tribal, cruel and dark nihilism.
Very few white Southern fundamentalists fought to end segregation. When the public schools were segregated in the south; fundamentalists created so-called "Christian" academies to maintain segregation. Bob Jones, among others, continued to his dying day to argue that African Americans were 'inferior." Members of the religious right such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell Jr. and Billy Graham are using scripture and their "moral" authority to justify Trump's vile view of women.
The religious right can rail all that it wants about the unborn; but, what about the living? They continually refuse to care for the weakest in society and strongly support public policy that demeans and destroys them. For example, why is the United States the only industrial nation that doesn't have universal healthcare, a national paid family leave policy, lack of decent vacations like those enjoyed by citizens of other countries, etc.
The religious right is tied to Mammon -- it always has been since the days of slavery. Ross ends his essay about the need for transcendence; all that I see that emanates from the right and its religious right enablers is "tribal, cruel and dark nihilism.
6
The religious right began not to oppose abortion, but rather to defend the tax exempt status of the church-run segregated academies set up to replace the newly integrated public schools. So much for their morality. It was racism and a desire to build almost as strongly segregated community as Jim Crow de jure segregation had provided for decades.
2
For a very long time, in the lifetime of those over 55, the untra-religious tried to spread their beliefs by proselytizing other human beings. In the late 1970s as a part of the action to save themselves from desegregation, those untra-religious souls entered the political arena to impose their beliefs on others by use of statutes and court decisions, something liberals had long done in fighting Jim Crow statutes.
The right's attempt to force their - it can only be called what it has been called - hated of "the others," has simply not been accepted as appropriate by even a third of the population. Our national document proclaims that abortion is okay, that contraception is okay, that Southern Baptists can meet in peace, that Nazis can conduct a parade, and that guns are okay. One man's feelings do not give those feelings any special liberty to work to destroy another's rights under that Constitution by the guise that Christ was a man who hated the poor, hated the prostitute and loved the Jewish law and the rich. People have not bought that perversion of what Jesus taught, and make no mistake that is what Ralph Reed, James Dobson, the deceased Jerry Falwell and his living son and powerful heir Jr. has offered America.
The right's attempt to force their - it can only be called what it has been called - hated of "the others," has simply not been accepted as appropriate by even a third of the population. Our national document proclaims that abortion is okay, that contraception is okay, that Southern Baptists can meet in peace, that Nazis can conduct a parade, and that guns are okay. One man's feelings do not give those feelings any special liberty to work to destroy another's rights under that Constitution by the guise that Christ was a man who hated the poor, hated the prostitute and loved the Jewish law and the rich. People have not bought that perversion of what Jesus taught, and make no mistake that is what Ralph Reed, James Dobson, the deceased Jerry Falwell and his living son and powerful heir Jr. has offered America.
2
I would like to make two points, one quite narrow and one more general.
First it is unfair to blithely say Hillary is for any and all abortions. I believe she speaks of late term ones in terms of threats to the mother's health or life.
Secondly, the premise that a religious right is necessary to a healthy democracy is not defended and is, in fact, not defensible. There are religious people across the political spectrum. And there are moral, civic-minded atheists carefully and thoughtfully considering their political actions. A 'religious right' is no more useful than a Marxist left.
First it is unfair to blithely say Hillary is for any and all abortions. I believe she speaks of late term ones in terms of threats to the mother's health or life.
Secondly, the premise that a religious right is necessary to a healthy democracy is not defended and is, in fact, not defensible. There are religious people across the political spectrum. And there are moral, civic-minded atheists carefully and thoughtfully considering their political actions. A 'religious right' is no more useful than a Marxist left.
5
What a terrible waste of words. Why must we have any conversation at all about religion in government?
Among other faults, Douthat assumes that readers stipulate to his assumption that Cruz, Rubio and Carson were somehow more legitimate than Trump. Each of them, in their own frothing religiosity, was as or more dangerous than the insincere Trump. Trump courts the religious vote, but at least he doesn't really believe it. His faith has room for only one deity and it is he.
Among other faults, Douthat assumes that readers stipulate to his assumption that Cruz, Rubio and Carson were somehow more legitimate than Trump. Each of them, in their own frothing religiosity, was as or more dangerous than the insincere Trump. Trump courts the religious vote, but at least he doesn't really believe it. His faith has room for only one deity and it is he.
10
The religious right (RR) has many problems, Trump is only one of them.
"...every abortion is a unique human life snuffed out forever." So is every execution, but it is hard to find a member of the RR who is against the death penalty. The RR spends a lot of time trolling the Torah for snippets that justify their petty prejudices and hatred and relegation of those "different from me" to their list of people who do not deserve their charity. The RR is also very pro-war where killing as many of the enemy is the only object. Finally, like their Islamic counterparts they have no room for anyone in a different religion.
Absolutism is, by definition, a self-defeating proposition. That creed depends on constantly testing the purity of their members and others. The smaller the circle, the more demanding tests of their members to make the circle smaller, not larger.
The reality is that many use religion as a path to power and that is a very dangerous mix. It is less-and-less about religion and more-and-more about absolute power. Hence they gravitate to Trump's message that he is the path to absolute power, even if he reserves the absolute part for himself.
"...every abortion is a unique human life snuffed out forever." So is every execution, but it is hard to find a member of the RR who is against the death penalty. The RR spends a lot of time trolling the Torah for snippets that justify their petty prejudices and hatred and relegation of those "different from me" to their list of people who do not deserve their charity. The RR is also very pro-war where killing as many of the enemy is the only object. Finally, like their Islamic counterparts they have no room for anyone in a different religion.
Absolutism is, by definition, a self-defeating proposition. That creed depends on constantly testing the purity of their members and others. The smaller the circle, the more demanding tests of their members to make the circle smaller, not larger.
The reality is that many use religion as a path to power and that is a very dangerous mix. It is less-and-less about religion and more-and-more about absolute power. Hence they gravitate to Trump's message that he is the path to absolute power, even if he reserves the absolute part for himself.
5
Ah, now I understand: millions of religious conservatives may be supporting Trump, but we shouldn't hold that against religious conservatism, because the good, virtuous, "serious" religious conservatives - the REAL religious conservatives - mostly didn't want him in the beginning. I suppose they preferred mild, modest, peace-loving candidates concerned with feeding and housing the poor. Oh wait, no they didn't. To the extent that Mr. Douthat's desperate distinction has any basis in reality, the "good" religious conservatives preferred the likes of Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio.
Mr. Douthat, it may finally be time to acknowledge that there never was a good, virtuous, serious religious right. There has been a "tribal, cruel, and very dark" right wing that we have all been living with for many decades. The religious wing has been just as tribal, cruel, and dark as the other factions of the right. "Without the pull of transcendence" serving as a pious cover for bigotry and greed, maybe everyone will be able to see just how tribal and cruel the entire movement is.
Mr. Douthat, it may finally be time to acknowledge that there never was a good, virtuous, serious religious right. There has been a "tribal, cruel, and very dark" right wing that we have all been living with for many decades. The religious wing has been just as tribal, cruel, and dark as the other factions of the right. "Without the pull of transcendence" serving as a pious cover for bigotry and greed, maybe everyone will be able to see just how tribal and cruel the entire movement is.
7
Jerry Falwell, Jr., needs to resign, take a vow of poverty -- and a vow of silence -- and check into a monastery for the next 30 years of so.
I'll tell you this: maybe if he spent more time straightening out that cesspool of a Bible college he runs rather than sucking up the the world's most famous reader of Two Corinthians, the quality of his graduates might improve.
Apparently guided by the same educational philosophy that serves as the lodestar for Trump University, at Falwell's Liberty U you can earn a professional counseling degree and hardly ever have to bother with showing up in a classroom. I'm just glad he's not offering degrees in thoracic surgery.
Recently, interviewing one of his graduates for a bachelor's level counseling position, the candidate, when he drew blanks in response to questions about basics such as Erickson's stages of development and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the young man offered, "well, I do have letters of recommendation here from four local pastors." I was surprised, but less than relieved.
Christian conservatives need to tend to their own vineyards and let the rest of us decide if we want to grow grapes, or not. They need to stop worrying about "preparing warriors for Christ," or whatever it is they're doing up there in Lynchburg, and preparing students who have the actual training and skills to help others. Now THAT would be a Christian thing to do.
I'll tell you this: maybe if he spent more time straightening out that cesspool of a Bible college he runs rather than sucking up the the world's most famous reader of Two Corinthians, the quality of his graduates might improve.
Apparently guided by the same educational philosophy that serves as the lodestar for Trump University, at Falwell's Liberty U you can earn a professional counseling degree and hardly ever have to bother with showing up in a classroom. I'm just glad he's not offering degrees in thoracic surgery.
Recently, interviewing one of his graduates for a bachelor's level counseling position, the candidate, when he drew blanks in response to questions about basics such as Erickson's stages of development and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the young man offered, "well, I do have letters of recommendation here from four local pastors." I was surprised, but less than relieved.
Christian conservatives need to tend to their own vineyards and let the rest of us decide if we want to grow grapes, or not. They need to stop worrying about "preparing warriors for Christ," or whatever it is they're doing up there in Lynchburg, and preparing students who have the actual training and skills to help others. Now THAT would be a Christian thing to do.
15
The religious "pull of transcendence" often pulls society in the direction of narrow-minded intolerance or simplistic moral prescription, like ignoring the humanity of a woman seeking an abortion. Where religious people have supported truly transcendent goals in keeping with Jesus's emphasis on compassion--like doing away with segregation and protecting or expanding the legal rights of women and gays--they have met with opposition from religious conservatives. Mr. Douthat is looking for transcendence in the wrong place.
4
The argument is not so much about the religious right as the right itself. As a liberal tending individual, I fully understand the need for a strong conservative movement to counter the worst tendencies of the left. The only difference between the religious right and the right (per Barry Goldwater) is that the religious right cannot or will not compromise their "Godliness", even when it is their own invention.
When the loudest voices of the religious right end their no compromise, no retreat stands and look to ameliorating the failures of society through common agreement of all parties, they won't need the Donald Trumps of the world.
When the loudest voices of the religious right end their no compromise, no retreat stands and look to ameliorating the failures of society through common agreement of all parties, they won't need the Donald Trumps of the world.
3
"Pro-life" too often isn't. Life is about all living things--women in crisis, victims of gun violence, and especially the life of all species on our planet. Supposedly pro-life voters are too often either blind to these other lives, or bizarrely condemn any discussion of life other than that of a fetus.
Hillary is pro-choice, not pro-abortion, and certainly favors restricting late term abortions except for dire circumstances. Many evangelical voters favor severe restrictions or even outlawing of preventative measures such as contraceptives.
Please don't throw the term "pro-life" around without acknowledging these deeply troubling life-related issues. Unless one acts on all aspects of life protection, especially all life on the planet, this phrase is a canard.
Hillary is pro-choice, not pro-abortion, and certainly favors restricting late term abortions except for dire circumstances. Many evangelical voters favor severe restrictions or even outlawing of preventative measures such as contraceptives.
Please don't throw the term "pro-life" around without acknowledging these deeply troubling life-related issues. Unless one acts on all aspects of life protection, especially all life on the planet, this phrase is a canard.
18
The article appears to be one more case of the fallacy of the false dilemma: either the religious Right or the absence of transcendence, take your pick. Those are far from the only two options. Conservatives like Douthat never take the religious Left seriously because it''s not their vision of religion. Then, too, thinkers like Vaclav Havel argued that religion, and especially Christianity, have no monopoly on transcendence. Taking care of and exercising stewardship for the earth represents another way for humanity to act on transcendent ideals. I suspect that Douthat's definition of transcendence is much too narrow and self-referential.
236
They lie in the bed they made. I wouldn't vote for Jesus if he ran as a Republican.
20
I must have missed the billions fighting AIDS in Africa but I do recall your response to AIDS in the States which, as I recall, had something to do with the wrath of God.
Despite Douthat's protests to the contrary, what I've always found striking about the Right, and the religious right in particular, is their complete lack of compassion, except for fetuses of course.
"you need to work harder to imagine yourself in someone else’s shoes."
Yes, Ross, you do.
Despite Douthat's protests to the contrary, what I've always found striking about the Right, and the religious right in particular, is their complete lack of compassion, except for fetuses of course.
"you need to work harder to imagine yourself in someone else’s shoes."
Yes, Ross, you do.
206
We need a Religious Right? Really? A Religious Right that tells me...a transgender woman...that I have to stay out of the women's room while celebrating a pervert who sexually assaults women and walks into the dressing room of Teen Miss USA candidates to 'inspect them'?
Spare me your patronizing sanctimony and hypocrisy. Your movement belongs in the trash heap of history.
Spare me your patronizing sanctimony and hypocrisy. Your movement belongs in the trash heap of history.
137
I am trying to figure out why a Christian would consider supporting Trump:
- He breaks approximately 8 of the 10 Commandments (depending on whether you count his own name in 10-foot-tall gold letters as idolatry).
- He commits 6 of the 7 deadly sins on a regular basis. The only one he doesn't seem to enjoy is gluttony.
- He has never shown the slightest bit of sign of either repenting his sins or embracing Jesus as his savior.
So yes, if you're a Christian preacher, and you tell people to support Trump as Pat Robertson has, you are either saying you are a Republican hack in preacher's clothing, or saying you are more concerned about your particular social issues of homosexuality and abortion than you are with the most basic tenants of Christianity as a religion. Neither one paints you in a light that an outsider would see as righteous.
There was another candidate who made a specifically religious appeal to the religious right that you left out of your discussion, namely Bernie Sanders. He went to Liberty University and asked the students to think about morality in economic terms. And by all appearances, got a fairly appreciative reception. Which makes sense, because the Bible has all sorts of verses that show economic justice as being incredibly important.
- He breaks approximately 8 of the 10 Commandments (depending on whether you count his own name in 10-foot-tall gold letters as idolatry).
- He commits 6 of the 7 deadly sins on a regular basis. The only one he doesn't seem to enjoy is gluttony.
- He has never shown the slightest bit of sign of either repenting his sins or embracing Jesus as his savior.
So yes, if you're a Christian preacher, and you tell people to support Trump as Pat Robertson has, you are either saying you are a Republican hack in preacher's clothing, or saying you are more concerned about your particular social issues of homosexuality and abortion than you are with the most basic tenants of Christianity as a religion. Neither one paints you in a light that an outsider would see as righteous.
There was another candidate who made a specifically religious appeal to the religious right that you left out of your discussion, namely Bernie Sanders. He went to Liberty University and asked the students to think about morality in economic terms. And by all appearances, got a fairly appreciative reception. Which makes sense, because the Bible has all sorts of verses that show economic justice as being incredibly important.
118
Perhaps you are too young to remember Ross, but there were abortions long before Roe v Wade.
There were frightened young girls, ashamed to admit their pregnancy to their fathers, who got advice from a friend of a friend and who bled to death or died of an infection.
There were mothers struggling to support three children, who couldn't imagine how to stretch resources to care for another, who went to someone someone told her about and died leaving three poor (in both ways) motherless children.
Roe v Wade was not "pro-abortion"-- it was to protect the lives of women and to allow their doctors the choice to help them.
If you want fewer abortions, as so many of us do:
1) give young women the self esteem to say no to "if you loved me you would"
2) help young men to stand up to the macho rape culture
3) provide information on and access to contraception
4) provide affordable childcare and other support for women who would happily carry an unplanned pregnancy if only they believed they could give the child (along with other children they already might have) the full measure of love and support that child would deserve.
5) don't insult single mothers
Your right-wing Republicans oppose all of that. In dramatic contrast, Hillary Clinton will support women and children on all of those measures.
The goal should be to support women and enable them to make the best choice, not degrade them, punish them or put their lives at risk.
There were frightened young girls, ashamed to admit their pregnancy to their fathers, who got advice from a friend of a friend and who bled to death or died of an infection.
There were mothers struggling to support three children, who couldn't imagine how to stretch resources to care for another, who went to someone someone told her about and died leaving three poor (in both ways) motherless children.
Roe v Wade was not "pro-abortion"-- it was to protect the lives of women and to allow their doctors the choice to help them.
If you want fewer abortions, as so many of us do:
1) give young women the self esteem to say no to "if you loved me you would"
2) help young men to stand up to the macho rape culture
3) provide information on and access to contraception
4) provide affordable childcare and other support for women who would happily carry an unplanned pregnancy if only they believed they could give the child (along with other children they already might have) the full measure of love and support that child would deserve.
5) don't insult single mothers
Your right-wing Republicans oppose all of that. In dramatic contrast, Hillary Clinton will support women and children on all of those measures.
The goal should be to support women and enable them to make the best choice, not degrade them, punish them or put their lives at risk.
428
I'm sorry, Mr. Douthat, but you speak of America "needing" a religious right.
You argue the country needs these people because they will force upon the rest of us what is substantially a Catholic position on abortion and, increasingly, contraception: and because they will use their legislative power--derived from a secular constitution, exercised in a secular arena--to weaken secular ideals of diversity and justice.
You defend them from the charge of hypocrisy for supporting Trump by trotting out the names of those candidates it preferred: as if Ted Cruz, Ben Carson, or Marco Rubio, should impress us as beacons of American tolerance and constitutional democracy.
These men include a Dominionist demagogue, a sad incoherent fellow who--whatever his very real professional accomplishments--is politically as ill-prepared for office as Trump himself, and a ratty little apparatchik with a shady past and an adorable biography.
No. The Christian right needs to do what real Christian souls are supposed to do every day: look inward, examine its conscience, stop hiding behind pieties, acknowledge its sins.
They would also do well to recognize that this nation--under threat from within as never before, its very foundations threatened by a toxic alliance of oligarchs and theocrats--can only survive if it ferociously, passionately affirms its secular roots and institutions that came out of the Enlightenment in reaction against the narrow, crippling, authoritarian vision of the Church.
You argue the country needs these people because they will force upon the rest of us what is substantially a Catholic position on abortion and, increasingly, contraception: and because they will use their legislative power--derived from a secular constitution, exercised in a secular arena--to weaken secular ideals of diversity and justice.
You defend them from the charge of hypocrisy for supporting Trump by trotting out the names of those candidates it preferred: as if Ted Cruz, Ben Carson, or Marco Rubio, should impress us as beacons of American tolerance and constitutional democracy.
These men include a Dominionist demagogue, a sad incoherent fellow who--whatever his very real professional accomplishments--is politically as ill-prepared for office as Trump himself, and a ratty little apparatchik with a shady past and an adorable biography.
No. The Christian right needs to do what real Christian souls are supposed to do every day: look inward, examine its conscience, stop hiding behind pieties, acknowledge its sins.
They would also do well to recognize that this nation--under threat from within as never before, its very foundations threatened by a toxic alliance of oligarchs and theocrats--can only survive if it ferociously, passionately affirms its secular roots and institutions that came out of the Enlightenment in reaction against the narrow, crippling, authoritarian vision of the Church.
242
Hailing from what is deemed the most conservative part of Canada, I can tell you of this: Economic conservatism has appeal with many, but social not so much. The phenomenon of a political " Religious Right" is exclusive to the USA among Western democracies, and somewhat odd in my opinion. Indeed, former Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper is an evangelical, but he couldn't wear his faith on a sleeve here or elsewhere in Europe and Oceania---except again in the USA.
Nevertheless, I concur that Trump represents an abandonment of social responsibility within the GOP. Yet could one not argue that this is also a core problem within contemporary conservatism itself? Certainly, it seems to have vanished in America---as with fellow Western democracies---along with a sense of mission and impulse to establish a " City upon the hill."
Nevertheless, I concur that Trump represents an abandonment of social responsibility within the GOP. Yet could one not argue that this is also a core problem within contemporary conservatism itself? Certainly, it seems to have vanished in America---as with fellow Western democracies---along with a sense of mission and impulse to establish a " City upon the hill."
8
"Asking Christian conservatives to accept a Clinton presidency is asking them to cooperate not only with pro-abortion policy-making...."
Hillary Clinton is NOT pro-abortion; she is pro-choice. There is a huge difference. Under a Clinton presidency no policy would be enacted suggesting (or forcing) women to get abortions; policies would allow women the right to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, as does the current law. Any woman who does not want to terminate her pregnancy does not have to do so.
Hillary Clinton is NOT pro-abortion; she is pro-choice. There is a huge difference. Under a Clinton presidency no policy would be enacted suggesting (or forcing) women to get abortions; policies would allow women the right to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, as does the current law. Any woman who does not want to terminate her pregnancy does not have to do so.
25
You are not describing religious conservatives. You are describing single-issue voters, with that sole issue being abortion (with a side helping of gay marriage).
Most Christians I know (and I am a church-going Catholic) have other issues that they consider and passages from scripture that ring true to us. I don't care what other people do in their bedrooms, provided there is consent. It's not my place to pass that kind of judgment ("Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - John 8:7). I do care what happens to people who cannot provide for themselves and need help. I do care that all people, regardless of their race, religion, gender or nationality are treated with dignity. Single issue voters will ignore everything else, as long as they get their way on the one thing they hold dear.
I will vote for Hilary Clinton, without regret. I am simply tired of the hypocrisy of the "Religious Right." As long as they are willing to walk away from the poor and the downtrodden, just to get their client-candidates "I am opposed to abortion in all circumstances" they will not get my vote. When they look the other way as an abusive bigot becomes their standard-bearer and say "but he opposes abortion" (Since when?) I'm gone. And I'm not coming back.
Most Christians I know (and I am a church-going Catholic) have other issues that they consider and passages from scripture that ring true to us. I don't care what other people do in their bedrooms, provided there is consent. It's not my place to pass that kind of judgment ("Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - John 8:7). I do care what happens to people who cannot provide for themselves and need help. I do care that all people, regardless of their race, religion, gender or nationality are treated with dignity. Single issue voters will ignore everything else, as long as they get their way on the one thing they hold dear.
I will vote for Hilary Clinton, without regret. I am simply tired of the hypocrisy of the "Religious Right." As long as they are willing to walk away from the poor and the downtrodden, just to get their client-candidates "I am opposed to abortion in all circumstances" they will not get my vote. When they look the other way as an abusive bigot becomes their standard-bearer and say "but he opposes abortion" (Since when?) I'm gone. And I'm not coming back.
48
I have empathy for pro-life voters supporting Trump. It is difficult for me to imagine a scenario when I would abandon a pro-choice candidate. But how can it be so hard to see that Trump will destroy lives too. More than under an Clinton presidency because the abortion rate wouldn't drop much if Roe were overturned.
4
I can certainly understand -though don't agree with- the religious right's concerns about abortion. Those concerns already rang hollow, though, with their knee-jerk support of the pols who gave us the Middle Eastern wars. That support amounted to a de facto choice of death for the living for the theoretical defense of the unborn. Now toss the support for a man whose entire life is the antithesis of Christianity onto that pile of irrational hypocrisy, and the Evangelicals who support him stand naked in front of the world. I remember from Sunday school the biblical proscription against involvement in 'worldly affairs', such as politics. Why? To avoid selling out your Christian principles.
13
Many on the left disdain religion; but for those of us who practice our faith, we find it comforting and necessary in a difficult and uncertain world. It gives us peace and joy that is often missing in our everyday lives. In Manhattan, the Catholic Churches are very well attended each Sunday with many young people worshipping alongside the middle aged. Young adults have found that they cannot go it alone and have turned to God for solace. Life has its trials and tribulations but we know our Lord is with us every step of the way. He never disappoints and we just have to put our trust in him. As a friend said to me recently, do your best and God will do the rest. There is definitely truth to this statement as I have experienced this first hand.
1
The tripart Judeo-Christian-Mohammedan power mongering theology is the ideological basis of political dictatorship. The history of medieval Europe is an object lesson in this fact. The ill-named Moral Majority and other such neo-fascist capers provide additional examples on a smaller scale.
A jealous god that guarantees destruction and eternal suffering for all who do not fearfully submit is what your religion promises to deliver. That's the deal, plain and raw.
The religious right and democracy are incompatible because you and your imaginary god do not tolerate "any gods but me". Democracy encompasses my beliefs, non-beliefs, and contradictions with some measure of grace. The religious right does not - its religion forbids that.
The religious right seeks social prestige without earning it through substantive accomplishment, but rather, it chooses to elevate itself over the oppression of its victims, especially gay people and those deemed 'heretics'.
Objective analysis must conclude that the superstitions of the right wing are nothing more than self-sanctified vanity.
A jealous god that guarantees destruction and eternal suffering for all who do not fearfully submit is what your religion promises to deliver. That's the deal, plain and raw.
The religious right and democracy are incompatible because you and your imaginary god do not tolerate "any gods but me". Democracy encompasses my beliefs, non-beliefs, and contradictions with some measure of grace. The religious right does not - its religion forbids that.
The religious right seeks social prestige without earning it through substantive accomplishment, but rather, it chooses to elevate itself over the oppression of its victims, especially gay people and those deemed 'heretics'.
Objective analysis must conclude that the superstitions of the right wing are nothing more than self-sanctified vanity.
24
I assume that, for unknown reasons, your editors removed the paragraph in which you noted that our constitution specifies separation of church and state and that if these preachers want to fully participate in political discourse they should lose their tax exempt status and pay for the government they so dearly want to control.
56
When abortions are less accessible, the poor and isolated have children they do not want and cannot afford to raise.
Women who are not poor and isolated, or burdened by conservative religious dogma, will end an inopportune pregnancy, regardless of the cost or inconvenience.
Duthat and his Church refuse to acknowledge the inconsistency of their hateful policy of forced pregnancy that only burdens the poor, isolated and
those least capable of controlling their own lives. Shame on them for their discriminatory views and shame on the rest of us for tolerating them.
Women who are not poor and isolated, or burdened by conservative religious dogma, will end an inopportune pregnancy, regardless of the cost or inconvenience.
Duthat and his Church refuse to acknowledge the inconsistency of their hateful policy of forced pregnancy that only burdens the poor, isolated and
those least capable of controlling their own lives. Shame on them for their discriminatory views and shame on the rest of us for tolerating them.
29
I love that right-wing Douthat is the author of such a perfect phrase for the current (not future) right wing: "tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
With deepening sorrow, I have watched on Facebook as evangelical friends (from my childhood) gradually justify to themselves the idea of supporting this monstrous, cruel, anti-democratic man for the Presidency. I now feel that I have a complete understanding of how the Holocaust came to be. Step by step, people of small mind and narrow sympathy join the throng and begin to goose-step and salute.
With deepening sorrow, I have watched on Facebook as evangelical friends (from my childhood) gradually justify to themselves the idea of supporting this monstrous, cruel, anti-democratic man for the Presidency. I now feel that I have a complete understanding of how the Holocaust came to be. Step by step, people of small mind and narrow sympathy join the throng and begin to goose-step and salute.
64
Ross forgets that America is designed as a secular society. Politics and religion do not mix well here. Yes, we need conservatives and also liberals for our democracy to stay balanced. What we do not need as they are defined by religion and motivated politically by religion. The abortion issue is the key: some people believe that it should be the woman's choice; others believe differently. It is a moral issue and should not be a political issue.
19
It is not clear to me why the anti abortion folks would support Trump as he has never been seen to me as pro-life. Maybe it is just that they know Hillary is pro choice and are willing to take their chances with Trump.
There seems to be a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum that are one issue driven.
I am a Hillary supporter as I do agree with most of what she is for, but the best thing is that she is qualified and is a female. The latter is very important as electing a women will finally send a message that even men like Trump can understand.
There seems to be a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum that are one issue driven.
I am a Hillary supporter as I do agree with most of what she is for, but the best thing is that she is qualified and is a female. The latter is very important as electing a women will finally send a message that even men like Trump can understand.
20
Equating morality with religion in 2016 is like still using a broken down antenna on inn's roof to watch a HD programming on TV. Humans, Mr. Douthat, have long since evolved beyond the need for ancient texts to dictate what moral, proper and ethical behavior is. My kids have grown up without religious education of any sort, yet they are quite able to differentiate between various types of behaviors without difficulty.
Society doesn't need the religious right, the religious right needs the advanced philosophical thought process of the liberated left to unshackle them from the chains of the outdated and expired dogma that still chain them...
Society doesn't need the religious right, the religious right needs the advanced philosophical thought process of the liberated left to unshackle them from the chains of the outdated and expired dogma that still chain them...
45
Nailed it. Cheers!
"...tribal, cruel, and very dark."
That is not the future of the religious right. As I see it, that is the religious right today. Liberals aren't the ones praying for the death of the president, gays and others. Liberals aren't the ones deciding not to give single mothers the tools they need to raise the children they insist they have as punishment for having sex outside of marriage. Liberals aren't the ones fighting to keep the death penalty. Liberals are not the ones that want to disenfranchise the poor, ex-offenders and people of color. Liberals aren't the ones insisting certain American citizens do not deserve equal protection under the law. I could go on....Religious conservatives can believe whatever they want as long as they don't insist that everyone else has to conform to their idea of religion.
That is not the future of the religious right. As I see it, that is the religious right today. Liberals aren't the ones praying for the death of the president, gays and others. Liberals aren't the ones deciding not to give single mothers the tools they need to raise the children they insist they have as punishment for having sex outside of marriage. Liberals aren't the ones fighting to keep the death penalty. Liberals are not the ones that want to disenfranchise the poor, ex-offenders and people of color. Liberals aren't the ones insisting certain American citizens do not deserve equal protection under the law. I could go on....Religious conservatives can believe whatever they want as long as they don't insist that everyone else has to conform to their idea of religion.
73
Ross, your point about the need for a revitalized religious input into the culture is valid. However, the pull of transcendence is credibly manifested by a fundamental optimism, a compelling desire to promote community (common good), service, and compassion in the midst a complicated and challenging world. The religious right's track record has been decidedly lacking in this regard. More tribal, decidedly judgmental showing little nuance in the policy debates, and swayed by money and power. Hence the demise into Trumpism.
21
the religious right is naive. please. they are closed mined. there is a huge difference in their obstinance as opposed to accepting that electricity has made a modern world. the right has lost this argument with any ameican values what so ever. they want it all ways and what's more they expect it. closed mined and closed off from human evolution. yeah that ol time mind thought creates this idiocy.
11
Of course a religious right or left for that matter is a good thing, a voice to be accepted in the polyglot conversation of America. But never let it be forgot that the current incarnation is one that implicitly rejects the constitution and favors a state religion to combat the freedom of making an individual choice. I am fine with a religious right that says teach your children but don't open the can of snakes that limits freedom of conscience.
15
There is no defense for anyone in the religious right to support a Trump presidency. Donald Trump is not now and has never been religious or actually conservative. His bold face lies, inciting of violence and personnel history of crushing, ridiculing, shaming, and cheating have no place in a president of the United States. Christian conservatives who continue to support him should re-examine their own understanding of what Jesus would say. I am pretty sure it would not include a sermon on supporting Trump.
38
Oh please, Ross. You pine for something that never existed. The religious right is, was, and always has been about using the cross of Jesus Christ as a club against their political adversaries - the rest of us. It was the creation of a cabal of Republican activists to fool most of the people in the southern and southwestern United States most of the time so they would vote against self-interest and give their party a sufficient base to win presidential elections. If abortion were truly the evil the so-called religious right abhors and their thinly-veiled activism were not really aimed at controlling a woman's body and a woman's impact (i.e., keeping her from ascending the workforce ladder to make room for more white men) they would be demanding the distribution of free birth control to prevent the need for abortion. Trump has merely ripped the cloth from our eyes exposing these hypocrites who are neither religious nor right. They wouldn't know Jesus if they tripped over him.
115
America does not need a religious right anymore than it needs a religious left. We don't need "paladins of traditional values" or a Christian "litmus test" when it comes to electing Presidents or appointing Supreme Court justices. We don't need them deciding what a woman can and can't do when it comes to her body. We don't need their holier-than-thou attitude, as if they alone know what God wants us to do. God doesn't speak to the religious right anymore than he/she/it speaks to the religious left. As for the squirming the religious right is doing these days, it's a case of too little too late. The idea that American Catholics, for example, whose church is a cesspool of child molesting priests and enabling bishops, has any moral ground on which to stand is a cruel hoax. Finally, America would be better off if the religious right would confine itself to its tax free sanctuaries. That's where it belongs. If we choose to enter those sanctuaries, it should try to do all it can to make us better people and leave it at that.
71
Nothing here makes me want to give the religious right any slack. They claim to be concerned about "precious life" hence must oppose abortion in any form. But if these people were truly religious and concerned about "precious life", rather than simply imposing their will on others for the sake of power, why aren't they out there protesting when a child is killed in the inner city, when a drunk driver takes a life? Why are they not protesting for gun control after countless school children, innocent bystanders, and other youth have their lives cut short? Why are they not working with gangs to prevent violence? Working with depressed people and veterans to prevent suicide? Why do so many of them support the death penalty? The religious right has always been a group that has given themselves over to snake oil salesmen, believing whatever garbage they are handed and they continue to do so with Trump.
126
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
This is a wise observation, Ross. But it cannot be rebuilt on the basis of evangelical religion, which is non-intellectual, politically obsessed, and transcendentally weak. It must be based on the traditional virtues of faith, hope, and charity.
This is a wise observation, Ross. But it cannot be rebuilt on the basis of evangelical religion, which is non-intellectual, politically obsessed, and transcendentally weak. It must be based on the traditional virtues of faith, hope, and charity.
83
What about the need for a religious left? It exists. Members of it occasionally publish op/ed pieces, generally calling for applying the teachings of Jesus to some current issue. But they are not organized, have no mega-churches or leaders who have grown rich off their religion, and have no movement trying to gain political power. But for most of the big problems facing society today they act as a conscience, a plea to bring forth our better natures. For such a powerless group, however, it is noteworthy that the president and first lady are committed members of the religious left. And it is fortunate that the leading candidate for next president is an active member of the religious left and did not just become that a month or so ago but has been so throughout her adult life.
10
Oh. My. God. A movement that coughs up Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, and Ben Carson as its preferred alternatives is sick indeed. These paragons of virtue hold no major policy positions that are different from each other or from Donald Trump, to the extent that Mr. Trump has positions. And these policies are stupid. From the perspective of potential governance, as articulated by its current leaders of the religious right, modern U.S. conservatism is dead.
18
Let me make sure I'm understanding the argument correctly. Religious conservatives are not actually a unified political faction. They are really different groups bound together by a common rejection of abortion or similar issues. They may in reality be conceding all other policy positions to conservatives based solely on religious principle. When faced with an election where religion is not a clearly defined issue, the coalition fractures. Hence, conservatives need to once again simplify religious contrast in the political discussion or they will continue to lose elections.
Maybe I just lack the appropriate amount of faith but I can't see abandoning the political spectrum on a single issue. This is why I refuse to vote based on religious principle. Voting predictably liberal or conservative from any narrowly defined position necessarily leads to manipulation and abuse by others. In fact, the choice therefore becomes no choice at all. In this light, a voter may be voting morally according to the communal tenants of their religious or community institution. However, this may actually construe unethical behavior. The individual is surrendering the responsibility knowledge and evaluation when making their own personal choice.
Maybe I just lack the appropriate amount of faith but I can't see abandoning the political spectrum on a single issue. This is why I refuse to vote based on religious principle. Voting predictably liberal or conservative from any narrowly defined position necessarily leads to manipulation and abuse by others. In fact, the choice therefore becomes no choice at all. In this light, a voter may be voting morally according to the communal tenants of their religious or community institution. However, this may actually construe unethical behavior. The individual is surrendering the responsibility knowledge and evaluation when making their own personal choice.
3
The Catholic Church still refuses to let women be priests, and in fact, one of the greatest genocides in history was the Inquisition in which Inquisitors would go through villages and leave not a single baby girl, female child, or woman alive. Antiabortionists refuse to compromise, refuse to believe science, refuse to have any understanding, empathy or compassion at all for the circumstances, many created by misogyny and sexism, which lead a woman to make such a decision. The Catholic Church enables the rape of children. Ross conveniently ignores all this history and context--in fact, it is not difficult to believe he didn't think of women or children at all when he wrote this column. If the religious right had fought as hard against rape as they do birth control, women's rights, and the rights of GLBT people, if they had fought as hard for family leave policies, daycare, environmental stewardship and other policies that support life, maybe they would have credibility. But many of them don't even know the history of the Bible and its translations from Ancient Hebrew, instead cherry-picking verses and declaring they are the word of God. The religious right has been mean-spirited and hypocritical long before Trump exposed them. You don't need religious conservatism or religion to be a decent human being, and you certainly don't need them to experience transcendence.
9
Any women who becomes pregnant hopes to have an easy pregnancy and a beautiful birth. But for some, they must make the choice whether the pregnancy will kill them. And to those who must bear a child from a rape. Then there is the cost of raising the child alone and finding child care and finding a place to live and finding food, especially if they are underage. The self-serving right is so righteous there is only their way or their way and no concern for the human beings involved in such a personnel and many times perilous position.
8
"Every abortion is a unique human life snuffed our forever'-perhaps so, but wy do so many of the religious right seem not to give a whit about a child dying from too little food, lead poisoning, or substandard medical care? Every fetus sacred, every toddler not so much. As to Roman Catholic voters "drifting " toward HRC, I would gently explain to Mr. Doudthat that Catholics have never voted en bloc for candidates who espouse anti-abortion views. My late mother sang in the church choir every Sunday but she and her friends used contraceptives and may have even had abortions. As to pastors and bishops giving advice as to who to vote for-maybe it is time to take away the religious tax exemption and for every voter to think for themselves. It's very freeing.
17
"without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed"
What disingenuous pap. Modern conservatism was always rooted in tribalism and cruelty to the "other". The religious right in this country have simply given cover to this darkness. We see it clearly, now that Trump has pulled the veil off the conservative base and revealed them for exactly who they are.
As a fiscal/economic conservative, and a believer in rationality, I can't muster up an iota of sympathy for the people who hijacked conservatism to serve their agenda of ignorance and backwardness, as revealed now in their support of this brutal, sadistic clown. If the price of their complicity is permanent irrelevance, or worse, it will be well deserved.
What disingenuous pap. Modern conservatism was always rooted in tribalism and cruelty to the "other". The religious right in this country have simply given cover to this darkness. We see it clearly, now that Trump has pulled the veil off the conservative base and revealed them for exactly who they are.
As a fiscal/economic conservative, and a believer in rationality, I can't muster up an iota of sympathy for the people who hijacked conservatism to serve their agenda of ignorance and backwardness, as revealed now in their support of this brutal, sadistic clown. If the price of their complicity is permanent irrelevance, or worse, it will be well deserved.
13
The religious right as a political force is so deeply and obviously hypocritical that it repulses otherwise receptive people from the GOP. What did the religious right want 50 years ago? Prayer in school. No abortion. No sex ed. No public acknowledgement of gays as part of America. Little or no recognition of non-Christian religions as part of America. How much of that agenda is now left? Still some holding out for school prayer?
The only thing left in their "agenda" is abortion. But their abortion position is nonsensical. If you accept their view that every fertilized egg is a human being, then any abortion should be treated as first degree murder, with both the mother and the abortionist guilty. How can it logically be considered anything else? Yet the Religious Right is too cowardly to say so. There is also obviously no exception for rape or incest, as the baby does not lose its status as human life just because the sperm came from a bad person.
In the real world, what is the best case scenario for the RR? Trump appoints a 7-2 conservative majority that overturns Roe v Wade, throwing the issue back to the states. Abortions are easily available in Blue States, and women in Red States with means can travel. The entire burden of overturning Roe falls on the poor in Red states. And for that conservatives should vote for Trump? Pathetic.
The only thing left in their "agenda" is abortion. But their abortion position is nonsensical. If you accept their view that every fertilized egg is a human being, then any abortion should be treated as first degree murder, with both the mother and the abortionist guilty. How can it logically be considered anything else? Yet the Religious Right is too cowardly to say so. There is also obviously no exception for rape or incest, as the baby does not lose its status as human life just because the sperm came from a bad person.
In the real world, what is the best case scenario for the RR? Trump appoints a 7-2 conservative majority that overturns Roe v Wade, throwing the issue back to the states. Abortions are easily available in Blue States, and women in Red States with means can travel. The entire burden of overturning Roe falls on the poor in Red states. And for that conservatives should vote for Trump? Pathetic.
11
First, the separation of Church and State is written into the U.S Constitution. Second, I am truly tired of hearing about the Religious Right and their self proclaimed moral and ethical superiority over everyone else. There have been too many instances where both proclamations have proven false. Also, while I do understand that abortion is an awful decision that some women feel they have to make and in a perfect world it would be nice if all babies were conceived because the parents wanted it to happen, it's just not the case 100% of the time. And what I never understood is why the Pro-Life movement is against all abortions and cares so much about the fetus, but could truly care less about the baby when it's born. Where is the Pro-Life movement in helping single mothers or families that just can't afford to raise the child? The answer is no where. I respect everyone's right to practice any religion you choose to practice in your particular house of worship or in your home. However, you have no right to force your beliefs on everyone else especially when it seems like the true religion is Hypocrisy.
11
Religion in general and Christianity in particular have always had a glaring problem: the embracing of cruelty. The Old Testament God is often cruel and this, no doubt, gives license, in the minds of many adherents, to exercise or condone cruelty especially when confronted with the “others.” Many evangelicals and other right-leaning Christians have for many years found kindred souls in the Republican party, the party that embraces the death penalty, withholding of public funds for the poor, the sick and the less fortunate.
Cruelty is, by and large, at odds with what most people consider to be positive character traits. There is a reason literature, stage and cinema have so many examples of religious characters acting cruelly and these characters being portrayed as less than heroic. They are not positive role models and they are not what well-adjusted modern young people want to aspire to be.
As long as cruelty is condoned, even embraced by Republicans and the Christian right, their numbers will be diminishing.
Cruelty is, by and large, at odds with what most people consider to be positive character traits. There is a reason literature, stage and cinema have so many examples of religious characters acting cruelly and these characters being portrayed as less than heroic. They are not positive role models and they are not what well-adjusted modern young people want to aspire to be.
As long as cruelty is condoned, even embraced by Republicans and the Christian right, their numbers will be diminishing.
10
The students at Liberty University deserve the admiration of all Christians, right, center or left. They have taken a strong stand against Donald Trump, who is the complete opposite of what Christianity stands for. And they did that knowing that their own university president was taking the opposite stand. Furthermore, they hosted Bernie Sanders for a seminar that is a remarkable example of civility in political discourse -- even when there is deep disagreement on major issues. They are the best of the religious right and should be applauded. I would say that others who consider themselves part of the religious right should look to them for inspiration and likewise reject the Trump candidacy.
This piece does not even mention them.
This piece does not even mention them.
9
In defense of the religious right, 1) no true Scotsman wanted Donald Trump, but the truly righteous would have given power to Ted Cruz, that miserable antichrist who was equally xenophobic and hostile to the poor, who made a show of moral high ground before declaring that he would vote to uphold the cis-male privilege of locker-room rape; 2) don't forget that living women in all circumstances should be required to donate their bodies to others at their own medical risk and expense; 3) if the government won't keep your marriage together, who will?
6
Thank you Ross, I am basking in a transcendent state of schadenfreude. I feel a sense of transcendence often. It is because I am an atheist and am enthralled to know that whatever the nature of reality is, I am of it. And, what I know, described to me by the scientific community is able to be proven. Over and over again. No supernatural. Those poor suckers, Cruz, Pence, McConnell and co., believing fervently in the rightness of their righteous christianity have fallen all over themselves trying to fall in line with Trump. Those of us not blinded by the sky fairies have no sycophantic needs. Transcendence is a gift to those who are able to think clearly.
10
If it is a moral calculus about the lesser of two evils - shouldn't the Religious Right also consider that their lesser evil was "pro-choice as far as it goes" until it was politically expedient not to be anymore? How can you imply that a Clinton administration would pursue 'pro-abortion' policies when not only is that claim very distinct from a pro-choice stance, but also when the very policies you label as 'less compelling' are in many cases aimed at curbing unwanted pregnancy in the first place and mitigating the underlying economic disparity that is one of the many difficulties of raising children? The Republican nominee clearly has no moral compass, when it comes to either womens' dignity or reproductive rights. Do they really think he cares more about women than Hillary Clinton would? Do they think he cares about any other life - unborn or otherwise - more than his own image and popularity?
6
Let us remember that the religious right has a genealogy that includes the segregated churches that supported American apartheid, the southern churches that supported slavery, an emphasis on individual righteousness over the prophetic imperatives for justice, generosity, and hospitality.
It is sad to see so many abandon their own insistence on individual morality in the name of Donald Trump. It is right for religious people who think abortion and same sex marriage are wrong to say so. It is wrong for them to use the coercive power of the state to enforce those opinions.
It is sad to see so many abandon their own insistence on individual morality in the name of Donald Trump. It is right for religious people who think abortion and same sex marriage are wrong to say so. It is wrong for them to use the coercive power of the state to enforce those opinions.
10
The state-religion divide is an old one. The colonists, starting with the Winthrop-led ones climbing down from Plymouth Rock, felt it. Early colonists could not survive their environmental ignorance without aid from the natives—aid that they received. Winthrop’s call for “A City upon the Hill” has always been a goal too far. And so it remains today. Unfortunately, the Fundamentalist and Evangelical of today have bought the very non-Biblical Republican line that perfection is just around the corner. Then the Republicans nominated Trump.
The weasel words no longer work. Trump will throw the Bible out with the bath water. What to do?
For a time, the religious right will probably retreat as they did after the Scopes trial left them and all of us as the products of evolution. Maybe, after a while, they will come out of their shells to once again to heed the Biblical injunction to help, not vilify, their neighbor.
The weasel words no longer work. Trump will throw the Bible out with the bath water. What to do?
For a time, the religious right will probably retreat as they did after the Scopes trial left them and all of us as the products of evolution. Maybe, after a while, they will come out of their shells to once again to heed the Biblical injunction to help, not vilify, their neighbor.
4
America needs a religious right AND a religious left - just as it has always had. And it needs all of the tiny increments between the two extremes. We all need each other, because no one individual or group or political party has the ability to properly discern The Truth for 320 million Americans.
It's beyond me how we miss such a simple, basic concept: if we are to survive as a nation, at some point we have to step back from this precipice of extreme polarity and reach across the chasm to find solutions. We have to stop seeing & describing one another as enemies bent on the destruction of our republic and see one another as fellow Americans who seek the same goals: better lives for ourselves, our children and our grandchildren. We need to stop curling our lip and going "ew!" when discussing a candidate or president who is not on "our" side.
We've lost trust. We've lost faith. And in many ways, we've lost hope. We're engulfed by a fatal cynicism of our own making - a cynicism that is the exact opposite of the message that has been the soul of Christianity for centuries. And we have all participated in this - with every forwarded e-mail, every Facebook post.
To the extent that Trump's candidacy forces us to do some serious soul-searching along these lines, maybe it does have some value after all.
It's beyond me how we miss such a simple, basic concept: if we are to survive as a nation, at some point we have to step back from this precipice of extreme polarity and reach across the chasm to find solutions. We have to stop seeing & describing one another as enemies bent on the destruction of our republic and see one another as fellow Americans who seek the same goals: better lives for ourselves, our children and our grandchildren. We need to stop curling our lip and going "ew!" when discussing a candidate or president who is not on "our" side.
We've lost trust. We've lost faith. And in many ways, we've lost hope. We're engulfed by a fatal cynicism of our own making - a cynicism that is the exact opposite of the message that has been the soul of Christianity for centuries. And we have all participated in this - with every forwarded e-mail, every Facebook post.
To the extent that Trump's candidacy forces us to do some serious soul-searching along these lines, maybe it does have some value after all.
1
"America needs a religious right."
I respectfully disagree. We don't need supernaturalism. Period.
Religion is inherently fraudulent because its elaborate claims can never ever be verified. When claims are made that can never be verified, we fracture, fissure, and disagree with no resolution. That is proving to be deleterious for the country and the world. So we should not foster it. Rather, we should strongly condemn it.
Let us discuss morality seriously. Let us congregate and make our communities close-knit. Let us enjoy the beautiful music and architecture from our religious pasts.
But lose the hocus-pocus.
I respectfully disagree. We don't need supernaturalism. Period.
Religion is inherently fraudulent because its elaborate claims can never ever be verified. When claims are made that can never be verified, we fracture, fissure, and disagree with no resolution. That is proving to be deleterious for the country and the world. So we should not foster it. Rather, we should strongly condemn it.
Let us discuss morality seriously. Let us congregate and make our communities close-knit. Let us enjoy the beautiful music and architecture from our religious pasts.
But lose the hocus-pocus.
11
The Moral Majority, the Religious Right, Evangelical, and Religious Conversatives sole reasons for existing has been an obsession with sex, sex between consenting individuals.
These groups never expressed outrage over the suffering of their neighbors , their fellow human beings. There never a buzz over social injustice. Where are their voices now? Are they not outrage over the hatred spewed in the streets, through the media? Where are their voices of reconciliation?
Over the last 40 years I have concluded the Religious Right, more than anything else want power to control the lives of others. Religion is merely a tool used to persuade, to exert their will over others.
These groups never expressed outrage over the suffering of their neighbors , their fellow human beings. There never a buzz over social injustice. Where are their voices now? Are they not outrage over the hatred spewed in the streets, through the media? Where are their voices of reconciliation?
Over the last 40 years I have concluded the Religious Right, more than anything else want power to control the lives of others. Religion is merely a tool used to persuade, to exert their will over others.
10
The primary defense of Trump by the religious types is that he will appoint Supreme Court Justices that enable the Republicans to continue their war against women's reproductive freedom. This is an admission that (1) Their only real hope of rolling back our rights is to take away our sexual autonomy and (2) The only way of doing that is through the federal courts (and not, say, through public opinion).
What does this tell us about the political health of the anti feminist backlash? They're terrified about women will be able to accomplish if we don't have to fight these constant efforts to undermine our autonomy. Look at what we've achieved in the past 40 years in spite of religion.
What does this tell us about the political health of the anti feminist backlash? They're terrified about women will be able to accomplish if we don't have to fight these constant efforts to undermine our autonomy. Look at what we've achieved in the past 40 years in spite of religion.
15
Again from Mr. Douthat, a false premise: no "liberal" that I know of is bothered by what the "Religious Right" believes or does or says on Sundays or any other day. It's only when they try to force their religiosity onto others that it becomes a problem.
Viz. women's rights to contraception and what to do with their own bodies. Viz. gay rights, and deciding whom your bakery will or will not sell to, and whom a sworn civil servant will perform his duties for, and what legal prescriptions a pharmacist or will not fill.
These are long-settled legal issues. What is new is the "Religious Right" is claiming a right to do whatever they please and to force those beliefs onto others through their actions or inaction.
And it is not permissible.
And a final note on abortion, for literalists: the Bible says nothing about abortion.
Viz. women's rights to contraception and what to do with their own bodies. Viz. gay rights, and deciding whom your bakery will or will not sell to, and whom a sworn civil servant will perform his duties for, and what legal prescriptions a pharmacist or will not fill.
These are long-settled legal issues. What is new is the "Religious Right" is claiming a right to do whatever they please and to force those beliefs onto others through their actions or inaction.
And it is not permissible.
And a final note on abortion, for literalists: the Bible says nothing about abortion.
15
The religious right's all-out war against LGBTQ people discredits the movement. They'll promote and support a thrice-married, self-confessed adulterer and sexual assaulter, but vehemently oppose the right of two loving, adult men or two loving, adult women to marry. They think that forcing others to follow their beliefs is both moral and just.
It's long past time to consign the religious right to the scrapheap of history.
It's long past time to consign the religious right to the scrapheap of history.
14
There is no majority support for using Constitutional or legislative means to shut down all abortions in the US. Only 20 percent of the US population believes there should be no legal and safe abortions, and these numbers have been terrifically stable for over 20 years. But the real issue is one the Religious Right runs from: who SHOULD make the decision? The American public are very comfortable in their conviction that it should be the woman who is pregnant, with some limitations for selective and late-term abortion.
The only real, realistic and humane solution for the Religious Right when it comes to abortion is to speak honestly and openly with women of child bearing age about their convictions and how they pertain to the child in that woman's womb. But the Right is not doing that, they are defunding Planned Parenthood based on a bogus videotape, or making abortion clinics inaccessible to the majority of women in rural states, or opening "pregnancy counseling centers" set up to harass and harangue vulnerable young women.
When we look at the complete lack of progress abortion foes have made politically and the fact that abortion has become the biggest issue among many on the Right, it becomes clear what the motive is: "Abortion!" is the expletive hurled back when"Racist!" is flung. It is a manipulation. There is zero chance the Religious Right will end abortion legislatively. But there is also little chance they will reach out to the poor and help them, as Jesus wished.
The only real, realistic and humane solution for the Religious Right when it comes to abortion is to speak honestly and openly with women of child bearing age about their convictions and how they pertain to the child in that woman's womb. But the Right is not doing that, they are defunding Planned Parenthood based on a bogus videotape, or making abortion clinics inaccessible to the majority of women in rural states, or opening "pregnancy counseling centers" set up to harass and harangue vulnerable young women.
When we look at the complete lack of progress abortion foes have made politically and the fact that abortion has become the biggest issue among many on the Right, it becomes clear what the motive is: "Abortion!" is the expletive hurled back when"Racist!" is flung. It is a manipulation. There is zero chance the Religious Right will end abortion legislatively. But there is also little chance they will reach out to the poor and help them, as Jesus wished.
11
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
Why, Ross? This column seems forced. Evangelicals, Catholics, Jews, Muslims--any religious group--is free to practice their religion and be protected by the Constitution for it. You know that, and so do most people.
The problems arise when people of faith seek to insert that faith into specific pieces of legislation, a slippery slope that offends protectors of the first amendment.
Don't you think Tim Kaine, Joe Biden are serious about keeping their faith out of the public square? Don't you think that it's great to live in a country where leaders aren't favoring one sect over another? Aren't you offended by those who proclaim, "We are a Christian nation."? Even Jefferson adhered to "deism," a religious philosophy today that would be attacked for being lukewarm if the religious right got their way.
Paul Ryan famously stated, in his VP debate in 2012, that he would let his Catholic faith guide his politics. John F. Kennedy had to swear he wouldn't answer to Rome in order to even being considered as a presidential contender. How has conservative sentiment changed so since the 60s?
I simply don't understand why we need "the pull of transcendence" into laws that affect all Americans.
Why, Ross? This column seems forced. Evangelicals, Catholics, Jews, Muslims--any religious group--is free to practice their religion and be protected by the Constitution for it. You know that, and so do most people.
The problems arise when people of faith seek to insert that faith into specific pieces of legislation, a slippery slope that offends protectors of the first amendment.
Don't you think Tim Kaine, Joe Biden are serious about keeping their faith out of the public square? Don't you think that it's great to live in a country where leaders aren't favoring one sect over another? Aren't you offended by those who proclaim, "We are a Christian nation."? Even Jefferson adhered to "deism," a religious philosophy today that would be attacked for being lukewarm if the religious right got their way.
Paul Ryan famously stated, in his VP debate in 2012, that he would let his Catholic faith guide his politics. John F. Kennedy had to swear he wouldn't answer to Rome in order to even being considered as a presidential contender. How has conservative sentiment changed so since the 60s?
I simply don't understand why we need "the pull of transcendence" into laws that affect all Americans.
18
The appeal to "transcendence" isn't just a feature of the Religious Right. In secular conservatism the void is filled by determinism of the Ayn Rand variety, by a belief in conservatism's manifest destiny that precludes any kind of search for consensus with the middle or the left. The contribution of Christian conservatives was to supply a spiritual justification for the pursuit of morally-suspect political objectives, much as the state Church was called upon to bless wars and crusades and slave trafficking and withholding aid to the poor.
This has been the flaw in the existence of the Religious Right: that the state would let the church legitimize questionable policies that otherwise would have nothing to recommend them to Christians. It created a situation where the separation of church and state was compromised along with various religious doctrines.
This has been the flaw in the existence of the Religious Right: that the state would let the church legitimize questionable policies that otherwise would have nothing to recommend them to Christians. It created a situation where the separation of church and state was compromised along with various religious doctrines.
3
Let's be frank. The entire premise of the religious right's support of Trump is based on the moral argument that, somehow, Trump will appoint judges who will a) overturn Roe v. Wade and b) overturn Obergefell v. Hodges. If they say otherwise, they are being disingenuous, for that is the slender reed on which the powerful Christian Right lobby is hanging its defense of Trump over Clinton.
Given that, in my view the sin of the religious right establishment is not its support of Trump, but rather its wholesale exploitation of the gullibility of their flock, because, any reasonably knowledgeable person understands neither of those things can happen judicially at this point. Constitutional amendments would be needed to change these things.
But that reality does not sell well, and anyway, what is really at stake for these leaders, is proving to the Republican Party, "You still need us, and we can still deliver votes."
Mission accomplished! Meanwhile, the view of Christianity plummets among non-believers. The religious right has long sacrificed integrity of Christian witness for access to power; this is merely the latest, and maybe worse, chapter.
Given that, in my view the sin of the religious right establishment is not its support of Trump, but rather its wholesale exploitation of the gullibility of their flock, because, any reasonably knowledgeable person understands neither of those things can happen judicially at this point. Constitutional amendments would be needed to change these things.
But that reality does not sell well, and anyway, what is really at stake for these leaders, is proving to the Republican Party, "You still need us, and we can still deliver votes."
Mission accomplished! Meanwhile, the view of Christianity plummets among non-believers. The religious right has long sacrificed integrity of Christian witness for access to power; this is merely the latest, and maybe worse, chapter.
3
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
A thoughtful essay. As a life-long evangelical believer I think I know the mind of evangelicals at least as well as pundits know the minds of all sorts of demographics in our society. I've never known a Democrat, from Roosevelt to Obama (Jimmy Carter excepted for one term) who wasn't portrayed as the emissary of the Devil by the evangelicals around me. I also know the deep strain of racism and xenophobia that runs through evangelical circles.
But that being said, I believe there is a core of religious belief within evangelicalism that could could be tapped to build, as you say, a better religious right. I'm not sure that there is any center from which that reconstruction could begin.
It might be best if both the Republican Party and its evangelical bed mate died together. The Church of Jesus Christ is bigger than evangelicalism. Politics is also bigger than the current hollowed out Republicanism of our day. But our society can not much longer endure the poisonous infusions of hatred, fear, and divisiveness from those two entities.
A thoughtful essay. As a life-long evangelical believer I think I know the mind of evangelicals at least as well as pundits know the minds of all sorts of demographics in our society. I've never known a Democrat, from Roosevelt to Obama (Jimmy Carter excepted for one term) who wasn't portrayed as the emissary of the Devil by the evangelicals around me. I also know the deep strain of racism and xenophobia that runs through evangelical circles.
But that being said, I believe there is a core of religious belief within evangelicalism that could could be tapped to build, as you say, a better religious right. I'm not sure that there is any center from which that reconstruction could begin.
It might be best if both the Republican Party and its evangelical bed mate died together. The Church of Jesus Christ is bigger than evangelicalism. Politics is also bigger than the current hollowed out Republicanism of our day. But our society can not much longer endure the poisonous infusions of hatred, fear, and divisiveness from those two entities.
4
We must accept the Religious Right because look what happens when something more Right and nasty replaces them? Is that the argument? Well here are some facts.
As a gay man, I had to leave the USA with my foreign spouse-to-be, because there wasn't federal acceptance of same-sex marriage - without that benefit, he could not immigrate. The results proved disastrous to us. This is all because we were treated differently under the law, as the Religious Right wanted.
Just what is the Religious Right? This group as we see it today under the umbrella of the Republicans, was formed as a movement with one of the major key components being an aversion to me having Liberty in this country. As far as they are concerned, I am a deviant only. The leaders of the movement gained power by manufacturing a set of wedge issues to motivate an angry constituency through the rejection of groups they consider pariahs. I am a member of one of those hated groups.
Ross, you say "allegedly-theocratic ambitions". Really? Just what does banning my access to equal protections and benefits under the law because your religion sees me as a block to their power and labeling my relationship as a threat to Western Civilization, effectively make you? In a society based upon the tenants of Classical Liberalism, it makes you a theocrat.
The reality then? The Religious Right does not believe in Liberty or separation of Church/State. It cannot stand to live beside many of us. This country doesn't need it.
As a gay man, I had to leave the USA with my foreign spouse-to-be, because there wasn't federal acceptance of same-sex marriage - without that benefit, he could not immigrate. The results proved disastrous to us. This is all because we were treated differently under the law, as the Religious Right wanted.
Just what is the Religious Right? This group as we see it today under the umbrella of the Republicans, was formed as a movement with one of the major key components being an aversion to me having Liberty in this country. As far as they are concerned, I am a deviant only. The leaders of the movement gained power by manufacturing a set of wedge issues to motivate an angry constituency through the rejection of groups they consider pariahs. I am a member of one of those hated groups.
Ross, you say "allegedly-theocratic ambitions". Really? Just what does banning my access to equal protections and benefits under the law because your religion sees me as a block to their power and labeling my relationship as a threat to Western Civilization, effectively make you? In a society based upon the tenants of Classical Liberalism, it makes you a theocrat.
The reality then? The Religious Right does not believe in Liberty or separation of Church/State. It cannot stand to live beside many of us. This country doesn't need it.
6
Opposition to abortion, even to the point of becoming a single-issue voter, is perhaps morally justifiable, but not theologically. The assertion here that "every abortion is a unique human life snuffed out forever" itself does not make much sense when one worships an all-powerful father God who does as he sees fit with any and all humans, including granting them immortality. Who are we to judge a woman or girl whose pregnancy ends, or even fails to begin?
Abortion is not a nice thing. I doubt you can find anyone who says it is. But neither is being born with no brain, or one eye, or with a terminal illness to a drug addict. And the uncounted and uncountable non-human organisms on earth, were they capable of human speech, might have their own opinions on the sanctity of each fertilized ovum, which will consume quite a lot before it is even lucky enough to be born. At which point the impact on "God's creation" will really get going.
Abortion is simply not a black and white issue. It is complicated. Morally, historically, legally, and politically. Roe vs. Wade was a careful compromise. And a hard-line, supposedly fundamentalist stance on birth control will actually INCREASE the number of abortions. Which is difficult to defend on moral or religious grounds, no matter how fond of eggs you are (every girl is born with a million odd).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-lowery-phd/abortion-what-the-bible-sa...
Abortion is not a nice thing. I doubt you can find anyone who says it is. But neither is being born with no brain, or one eye, or with a terminal illness to a drug addict. And the uncounted and uncountable non-human organisms on earth, were they capable of human speech, might have their own opinions on the sanctity of each fertilized ovum, which will consume quite a lot before it is even lucky enough to be born. At which point the impact on "God's creation" will really get going.
Abortion is simply not a black and white issue. It is complicated. Morally, historically, legally, and politically. Roe vs. Wade was a careful compromise. And a hard-line, supposedly fundamentalist stance on birth control will actually INCREASE the number of abortions. Which is difficult to defend on moral or religious grounds, no matter how fond of eggs you are (every girl is born with a million odd).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-lowery-phd/abortion-what-the-bible-sa...
4
Mr. Douthat is a master of thoughtful apologetics and often makes good points. There really are genuinely religious conservatives in this country, but the "Religious Right" are not among them. There are real conservative Christians who have done some of the things that Douthat mentions. You may not agree with them, but they are not the monsters like Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell Jr., and others, but recognizable traditional American Calvinists.
The "Religious Right" are just the modern versions of those perverted and depraved neo-Calvinists who became shills for the Social Darwinist business tycoons in the 1920s. See, Kevin M. Kruse's, "One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America". They were the enemy of a better progressive America then and are now.
The only tip of the spear these people have ever been are the Spear of Longinus aimed at piercing the crucified body of a progressive America that benefits the immigrant, the poor, the working poor, working class, and middle class. So time to stomp Trump into the ground, elect a flawed, but still much better Hillary Clinton, and re-establish a Supreme Court that will put these constituencies back in the saddle. Amen...
The "Religious Right" are just the modern versions of those perverted and depraved neo-Calvinists who became shills for the Social Darwinist business tycoons in the 1920s. See, Kevin M. Kruse's, "One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America". They were the enemy of a better progressive America then and are now.
The only tip of the spear these people have ever been are the Spear of Longinus aimed at piercing the crucified body of a progressive America that benefits the immigrant, the poor, the working poor, working class, and middle class. So time to stomp Trump into the ground, elect a flawed, but still much better Hillary Clinton, and re-establish a Supreme Court that will put these constituencies back in the saddle. Amen...
4
This certainty that every early stage pregnancy will result in a full-term baby is preposterous. Up to 30 percent end in spontaneous miscarriages. There is not a certain life. The right-to-lifers have an incomprehensible streak of cruelty aimed at desperate women who have to make a decision about their family. Nobody is forcing any of them to have abortions but they are happy to cram their beliefs down others' throats. They would have forced a relative of mine whose fetus was destined to die to live for months inside her body for their warped reasons.
6
Hillary will kill millions?
Nope, Hillary won't kill anybody. Roe V. Wade hasn't killed anybody. Denying the state the right to force a woman to undergo a pregnancy and delivery she absolutely does not want does not kill anybody.
Even if you believe that a day-old zygote is a full human being with all the rights of a full human being (a position, by the way, that was not held by Thomas Aquinas, arguably the greatest Christian theologian), recognizing that the state has no right to deny a woman control over what goes on inside her own body does not kill anybody. It simply recognizes that the state has no jurisdiction in the matter; that in effect its hands are, and should be, tied.
The issue, in my mind, is one of jurisdiction pure and simple. A woman has jurisdiction over her pregnancy; the state does not.
Many Canadians believe (along with the last three popes) that execution in a modern country like the U.S. is murder. This belief does not give Canadians the right to invade Texas to prevent an execution.
Nope, Hillary won't kill anybody. Roe V. Wade hasn't killed anybody. Denying the state the right to force a woman to undergo a pregnancy and delivery she absolutely does not want does not kill anybody.
Even if you believe that a day-old zygote is a full human being with all the rights of a full human being (a position, by the way, that was not held by Thomas Aquinas, arguably the greatest Christian theologian), recognizing that the state has no right to deny a woman control over what goes on inside her own body does not kill anybody. It simply recognizes that the state has no jurisdiction in the matter; that in effect its hands are, and should be, tied.
The issue, in my mind, is one of jurisdiction pure and simple. A woman has jurisdiction over her pregnancy; the state does not.
Many Canadians believe (along with the last three popes) that execution in a modern country like the U.S. is murder. This belief does not give Canadians the right to invade Texas to prevent an execution.
8
Social conservatism has survived as long it has only by using the middle and lower economic groups as human shields, so to speak, by promises of trickle down riches. But even before that, the foundations were laid by allowing the Dixiecrats into the party and abandoning all the basic decent principles of the GOP. In doing so, they degraded the values of their own principles and made mockery of the Christian Values.
The social conservative principles deserve a home and no doubt they are sincerely held by a significant number of the citizens. But they would have to find a new home for themselves. They set their old home on fire, or allowed the foundations to rot. The human shield understood the scam of economic promises and instead of melting away, took over the house, now crumbling. Too many metaphors, but one can just go on and on about the tragedies inflicted on all of us.
The social conservative principles deserve a home and no doubt they are sincerely held by a significant number of the citizens. But they would have to find a new home for themselves. They set their old home on fire, or allowed the foundations to rot. The human shield understood the scam of economic promises and instead of melting away, took over the house, now crumbling. Too many metaphors, but one can just go on and on about the tragedies inflicted on all of us.
1
And we certainly don't need the religious right of Ted Cruz!
If you really want anyone to believe you sincerely care for aborted fetuses you need to start advocating for the children that are born. I, for one am tired of reading about neglected children, starved children, beaten children, raped and killed children. Those children don't always come from poor families, but most do, and many of them come from white, not minority families. Defunding Planned Parenthood means low income people can't get affordable or free birth control, or even decent prenatal care. Why is it we have such a high rate of maternal deaths in this country? Why do children suffer from lead poisoning and water pollution in such a wealthy country. Then when their brain development is stunted or they are not raised a mentally healthy environment we throw them away into for profit prisons. It may make those religious Mormon Marriotts pots of money, but it doesn't make us a better country.
If you really want anyone to believe you sincerely care for aborted fetuses you need to start advocating for the children that are born. I, for one am tired of reading about neglected children, starved children, beaten children, raped and killed children. Those children don't always come from poor families, but most do, and many of them come from white, not minority families. Defunding Planned Parenthood means low income people can't get affordable or free birth control, or even decent prenatal care. Why is it we have such a high rate of maternal deaths in this country? Why do children suffer from lead poisoning and water pollution in such a wealthy country. Then when their brain development is stunted or they are not raised a mentally healthy environment we throw them away into for profit prisons. It may make those religious Mormon Marriotts pots of money, but it doesn't make us a better country.
6
I find your summary dismissal of the Mormons baffling and perhaps disturbing. It suggests you have some sort of bias against the Mormons, when they are the only people doing the right thing. Mormons overwhelming rejected Trump during the primaries. Utah gave Trump only 14% in the primaries, and most of that was probably from non-Mormons. The choice for any person of faith who rejects abortion and a culture of sexual license and self indulgence should be an extremely difficult one. The nominees of both parties are extremely problematic. One supports partial-birth abortion, which even Patrick Moynihan said was tantamount to infanticide, and that candidate harbors an accused rapist. The other one has been married three times, runs casinos, and has bragged about groping women and getting away with it. The only morally sound choice for anyone, but especially for a person who is committed to traditional religious morality, is to vote for neither Trump nor Clinton. And Utah is leading the way on this, where I predict Evan McMullin will win. If the rest of the religious right had followed the Mormons lead, we would not be facing such an appalling choice, and Hillary Clinton would not be cruising to victory. If the rest of the country would follow the Mormons lead neither Creepy Donald nor Crooked Hillary would be president.
1
This is another Douthat column I don't pretend to understand. I don't pretend to understand the mental gymnastics necessary to create a God that gives us moral choice and a belief in a government that legislates morality. I don't understand how one can wrap oneself in the flag of a country that expressly demands a separation of church and state and demand the state exercise many of the functions that are strictly church related. I understand the line of separation is not always crystal clear but it is 2016 and there are remedies to find reasonable accommodation.
I live in Quebec, the most secular society in North America and the society most devoted to to social justice and the protection of all its citizens. I do not understand Ross' essay it is from another reality.
A few weeks ago I responded to Ross' inability to accept the changes in his Catholic Church. I responded I am Jewish and for us if something is wrong it is never to late to try and correct it.
In response to Russell Moore's inability to support either Trump or Hillary I said I understand Moore's inability to support Hillary's neoliberalism but Moore knows America and he knows America's constitution and Moore's and Hillary's America are the same America and Trump's America is another place. The very inability of of Moore to support Hillary's American values says everything I must know about the religious right and its inability to embrace the things America stands for.
I live in Quebec, the most secular society in North America and the society most devoted to to social justice and the protection of all its citizens. I do not understand Ross' essay it is from another reality.
A few weeks ago I responded to Ross' inability to accept the changes in his Catholic Church. I responded I am Jewish and for us if something is wrong it is never to late to try and correct it.
In response to Russell Moore's inability to support either Trump or Hillary I said I understand Moore's inability to support Hillary's neoliberalism but Moore knows America and he knows America's constitution and Moore's and Hillary's America are the same America and Trump's America is another place. The very inability of of Moore to support Hillary's American values says everything I must know about the religious right and its inability to embrace the things America stands for.
7
Don't brag about what the religious right did when they were ascendant. Here are a couple of examples:
1. Their efforts to cut funds to Planned Parenthood almost certainly caused there to be more abortions, because many women had little or no access to reproductive care. Likewise, states which allowed only abstinence-only sex education left many teenagers with no knowledge of how to protect themselves when their natural urges kicked in, increasing teen pregnancy.
2. I take your word that the GOP deserves some credit for sending money to Africa to fight AIDS. However, GOP Representatives and other evangelical leaders also help Ugandan lawmakers draft legislation making homosexuality a capital offense.
A religious movement that espouses the virtues that Jesus espoused might be a positive force. However, I see no need for the judgmental and hypocritical organizations that we have now, and no way to change the people who support those organizations into a positive force.
1. Their efforts to cut funds to Planned Parenthood almost certainly caused there to be more abortions, because many women had little or no access to reproductive care. Likewise, states which allowed only abstinence-only sex education left many teenagers with no knowledge of how to protect themselves when their natural urges kicked in, increasing teen pregnancy.
2. I take your word that the GOP deserves some credit for sending money to Africa to fight AIDS. However, GOP Representatives and other evangelical leaders also help Ugandan lawmakers draft legislation making homosexuality a capital offense.
A religious movement that espouses the virtues that Jesus espoused might be a positive force. However, I see no need for the judgmental and hypocritical organizations that we have now, and no way to change the people who support those organizations into a positive force.
5
I don't disagree that a religious right is necessary. Perhaps the younger, more diverse evangelical groups will provide the balance and vitality necessary for revitalization.
What I do vehemently disagree with is the preposterous notion that liberalism (and Hillary Clinton in particular) represent any threat to religious liberty. At most, what liberals are challenging are the attempts in many states to use religious freedom as a cloak for discrimination in secular society. Evangelicals remain reasonably free to set whatever standards they want within their church institutions. The same First Amendment which protects that freedom prevents them from imposing their religious norms on secular society.
What I do vehemently disagree with is the preposterous notion that liberalism (and Hillary Clinton in particular) represent any threat to religious liberty. At most, what liberals are challenging are the attempts in many states to use religious freedom as a cloak for discrimination in secular society. Evangelicals remain reasonably free to set whatever standards they want within their church institutions. The same First Amendment which protects that freedom prevents them from imposing their religious norms on secular society.
5
Let's consider that Donald Trump's "sexual attitudes and conduct" toward women might have nothing to do with lust, but with his own fear and an overwhelming sense of inadequacy, perhaps his feelings of humiliation.
I think it just as likely an explanation that those powerful emotions drive his need to dominate, to demonstrate physical power through assault, violence, and violation, rather than "lust" - an urge to sex and procreate.
So, I think it's a flawed premise to attribute a sexual motive to his apparent pattern of assaulting women - the behavior and bragging speak for themselves, and my attribution of fear and inadequacy are also as likely flawed... but just as likely plausible.
I think it just as likely an explanation that those powerful emotions drive his need to dominate, to demonstrate physical power through assault, violence, and violation, rather than "lust" - an urge to sex and procreate.
So, I think it's a flawed premise to attribute a sexual motive to his apparent pattern of assaulting women - the behavior and bragging speak for themselves, and my attribution of fear and inadequacy are also as likely flawed... but just as likely plausible.
2
The only sentence that makes any sense here is the final one. The rest is Incoherent. Some real ideas:
1) Hillary Clinton's stance on abortion is morally consistent, unlike the Christian right's, which says one can abort sometimes and it's okay but only when they say it is. Clinton does not believe a fetus is yet human life, for which there is ample religious precedent, in the Judeo-Christian tradition. So she is not acting immorally, while the Christians are.
2) Furthrtmore, there is a profound connection between those who would deny a woman reproductive rights over her own body and sexual rights of consent for her own body. The "pro-life" stance is a form of sexual oppression and domination to those who don't believe that a fetus is a human life. Christians need to deal with the fact that others believe differently, and hey, if they feel isolated because most people do not have their extreme beliefs, that is hardly the fault of the mainstream.
So, that leads back to voting for Trump. Because Christians don't respect the right of women to be free from domination and aggression over their own sexuality and reproductive rights, it totally makes sense for them to vote for sexual predator Trump. They should stop handwringing; it's quite unconvincing.
1) Hillary Clinton's stance on abortion is morally consistent, unlike the Christian right's, which says one can abort sometimes and it's okay but only when they say it is. Clinton does not believe a fetus is yet human life, for which there is ample religious precedent, in the Judeo-Christian tradition. So she is not acting immorally, while the Christians are.
2) Furthrtmore, there is a profound connection between those who would deny a woman reproductive rights over her own body and sexual rights of consent for her own body. The "pro-life" stance is a form of sexual oppression and domination to those who don't believe that a fetus is a human life. Christians need to deal with the fact that others believe differently, and hey, if they feel isolated because most people do not have their extreme beliefs, that is hardly the fault of the mainstream.
So, that leads back to voting for Trump. Because Christians don't respect the right of women to be free from domination and aggression over their own sexuality and reproductive rights, it totally makes sense for them to vote for sexual predator Trump. They should stop handwringing; it's quite unconvincing.
5
Sorry the religious right has always been wrong. They have wanted to push their human interpretations of God down the throats of everyone else and have gotten hung up on sexual mores because of their own sexual insecurities. Females must be controlled. Males must be in power. They let these jealousies rule their agendas.
Jesus Christ was much more concerned with equality love and mercy. Evangelicalism is only in love with power; human power and that arrogance is an affront to God. Pence with his allegiance to Trump is the perfect example of this deep hypocrisy. Abortion seems cruel but so is building the non-humane world the Right seems Hell bent on building. Make those babies be born so they can die of poverty or at the end of a gun on our streets or overseas. Poor wages, racial inequality, opiate addiction, bad public education and expensive, unaffordable higher education, inaccessible health care, not the world I want my children to inherit. But hell if we can just pray in public school everything will be ok?
Jesus Christ was much more concerned with equality love and mercy. Evangelicalism is only in love with power; human power and that arrogance is an affront to God. Pence with his allegiance to Trump is the perfect example of this deep hypocrisy. Abortion seems cruel but so is building the non-humane world the Right seems Hell bent on building. Make those babies be born so they can die of poverty or at the end of a gun on our streets or overseas. Poor wages, racial inequality, opiate addiction, bad public education and expensive, unaffordable higher education, inaccessible health care, not the world I want my children to inherit. But hell if we can just pray in public school everything will be ok?
8
How about this? We are all sinners in need of redemption. To find redemption we need a moral compass. Our official reader of the America's moral compass is the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is misreading the country's moral direction and not making decisions based on the moral standards of the majority of the citizens. Therefore we need judges who reflect the moral values and Constitutional principles dear to the majority. Conclusion: Vote for Trump. That is the reason I am.
1
Douthat approaches but ultimately misses the right point.
The USA religious right is a bunch of self-righteous, arrogant, self-serving bigots. For all their talk about caring for family values and fellow human beings, they are amazingly devoid of empathy when issues of human rights and human welfare programs come around. They shun their LGBQT children like lepers in the Gospels! They find it socially difficult and uncomfortable to live in diverse neighborhoods. They claim to be pro-life but ultimately prove themselves to be just anti-abortion because they refuse to advance legislation to provide for all those children born to parents who economically and emotionally didn’t want them in the first place.
It has been my political premise that every Christian Church which proclaims itself as such should first be persuading, teaching, encouraging, and ultimately producing its own people who LIVE the values they preach. If they were quite as successful as they claim to be, then there would be far more citizens attracted to and perhaps accepting of their message. There would also be far less need to impose beliefs and practices on non-Christians that are anathema to them.
There is indeed a need for the religious, but not a religious right. It is when you mix politics and religion that you sometimes end up with the farce and hypocrisy that the country is now enduring and which besmirches the good name of religion. Not the first time, not the last, but astounding nonetheless.
The USA religious right is a bunch of self-righteous, arrogant, self-serving bigots. For all their talk about caring for family values and fellow human beings, they are amazingly devoid of empathy when issues of human rights and human welfare programs come around. They shun their LGBQT children like lepers in the Gospels! They find it socially difficult and uncomfortable to live in diverse neighborhoods. They claim to be pro-life but ultimately prove themselves to be just anti-abortion because they refuse to advance legislation to provide for all those children born to parents who economically and emotionally didn’t want them in the first place.
It has been my political premise that every Christian Church which proclaims itself as such should first be persuading, teaching, encouraging, and ultimately producing its own people who LIVE the values they preach. If they were quite as successful as they claim to be, then there would be far more citizens attracted to and perhaps accepting of their message. There would also be far less need to impose beliefs and practices on non-Christians that are anathema to them.
There is indeed a need for the religious, but not a religious right. It is when you mix politics and religion that you sometimes end up with the farce and hypocrisy that the country is now enduring and which besmirches the good name of religion. Not the first time, not the last, but astounding nonetheless.
9
I just watched Ross Douthat a paladin of traditional values twist and squirm as he tried to excuse the hypocrisy of Christian conservative leaders. Neat trick Ross, defending hypocrisy with more hypocrisy.
The current capitulation of the religious right to the Trumpster Dumpster, demonstrates the danger of mixing politics and religion. There is nothing wrong with people of faith protesting about issues they believe in, whether it is abortion or civil rights, but to crave power so you can impose your morality on other people is undemocratic. The religious must accept that sometime things they consider sinful will be legal in a free society because a majority of the people see things differently. In that case all they can do is pray and wait for the God they believe in to impose the justice they believe in; they are religious after all. Evangelical Christians leaders have let their zealotry and lust for power lead them to abandon their values. That is, if they ever had any values to begin with - and I’m not convinced they aren’t all just opportunists using the faithful to gain power – they could never endorse a man as crass and immoral as Donald Trump. The faithful need to question their leaders and hold them accountable.
The Religious have every right to act in the public square but they must accept democratic outcomes, we do not live I a theocracy.
The current capitulation of the religious right to the Trumpster Dumpster, demonstrates the danger of mixing politics and religion. There is nothing wrong with people of faith protesting about issues they believe in, whether it is abortion or civil rights, but to crave power so you can impose your morality on other people is undemocratic. The religious must accept that sometime things they consider sinful will be legal in a free society because a majority of the people see things differently. In that case all they can do is pray and wait for the God they believe in to impose the justice they believe in; they are religious after all. Evangelical Christians leaders have let their zealotry and lust for power lead them to abandon their values. That is, if they ever had any values to begin with - and I’m not convinced they aren’t all just opportunists using the faithful to gain power – they could never endorse a man as crass and immoral as Donald Trump. The faithful need to question their leaders and hold them accountable.
The Religious have every right to act in the public square but they must accept democratic outcomes, we do not live I a theocracy.
10
Please know your history, Religious Right. Overturning Roe v Wade will not stop abortions, it will only return us to the days of back alley butchers and coat hangers.
In the meantime, you are voting for a man who is gleefully trying to blow up essential American democratic institutions in the cause of advancing himself. He claims that our voting system is “rigged,” with zero evidence. (If the public doesn’t believe the results in November, what chaos will ensue?? The armed alt-right zanies will have the perfect excuse to start their “revolution.”) He claims, again with no evidence, that the Justice Department is in the pocket of President Obama. Out of the other side of his mouth, he says he will manipulate the Justice Department of the United States to wreak personal vengeance on Hillary Clinton and other political enemies -- an unprecedented abuse of Presidential power. He cozies up to America’s adversary, Russia, in a fashion bordering on treason, in order to win the election and to preserve his many business interests with them, for the benefit of his family and for himself after he leaves office.
This is what dictators do.
Religious Right, you are making a bargain with the Devil. And the Devil likely won’t even hold up his end of the bargain.
In the meantime, you are voting for a man who is gleefully trying to blow up essential American democratic institutions in the cause of advancing himself. He claims that our voting system is “rigged,” with zero evidence. (If the public doesn’t believe the results in November, what chaos will ensue?? The armed alt-right zanies will have the perfect excuse to start their “revolution.”) He claims, again with no evidence, that the Justice Department is in the pocket of President Obama. Out of the other side of his mouth, he says he will manipulate the Justice Department of the United States to wreak personal vengeance on Hillary Clinton and other political enemies -- an unprecedented abuse of Presidential power. He cozies up to America’s adversary, Russia, in a fashion bordering on treason, in order to win the election and to preserve his many business interests with them, for the benefit of his family and for himself after he leaves office.
This is what dictators do.
Religious Right, you are making a bargain with the Devil. And the Devil likely won’t even hold up his end of the bargain.
11
When will the religious right learn that the Republican party has no intention of ever doing anything about abortion. They keep promising to do something about it, but never actually do. If abortion were effectively banned what issue could keep the evangelicals voting for a party with the main goal of lowering taxes on the rich. Evangelicals are being thoroughly duped.
If the evangelicals could stop letting the best be the enemy of the good, they would join forces with democrats and push measures that really would limit abortions: easier access to contraceptives, support for adoptions, proper childcare and support for poor single mothers.
But it seems as if the Evangelicals would rather preserve their glow of moral righteous than actually get their hands dirty compromising and do something to reduce something they view as an evil.
If the evangelicals could stop letting the best be the enemy of the good, they would join forces with democrats and push measures that really would limit abortions: easier access to contraceptives, support for adoptions, proper childcare and support for poor single mothers.
But it seems as if the Evangelicals would rather preserve their glow of moral righteous than actually get their hands dirty compromising and do something to reduce something they view as an evil.
8
You lost me at "imagine yourself in someone else's shoes". As a Queer Secularist I resent the generations-long attack on both movements. Where are the moderate religious conservatives that would save us from this tribal, cruel and dark future?
While all of the Republican candidates attended religious summits featuring speakers who called for the extermination of Queers (as noted more than once in the Times), where were the religious moderates? The "compassionates"? And, most of the mainstream media for that matter. That sucking sound you hear is the vacuum formed by their silence.
Condemnation and open discrimination of and toward a select group of society by clergy, parents and politicians leads to bullying, soaring suicide rates in our Queer youth, increasing assaults on those perceived as Queer, religious minorities and a normalization of selective persecution.
Let the ultra conservative begin to really take the bible literally. Let's discriminate against the adulterers, the divorced, the obese, the greedy, those who would judge others before their creator, the idolaters, and the money changers in the temple.
To steal a concept from Act Up in the 80s, "Silence = Death"
Only when real, accepting, socially-engaged congregations band together to disavow those who would mix violence, religion and legislation will I accept the need for the "rebuilding of religious conservatism".
While all of the Republican candidates attended religious summits featuring speakers who called for the extermination of Queers (as noted more than once in the Times), where were the religious moderates? The "compassionates"? And, most of the mainstream media for that matter. That sucking sound you hear is the vacuum formed by their silence.
Condemnation and open discrimination of and toward a select group of society by clergy, parents and politicians leads to bullying, soaring suicide rates in our Queer youth, increasing assaults on those perceived as Queer, religious minorities and a normalization of selective persecution.
Let the ultra conservative begin to really take the bible literally. Let's discriminate against the adulterers, the divorced, the obese, the greedy, those who would judge others before their creator, the idolaters, and the money changers in the temple.
To steal a concept from Act Up in the 80s, "Silence = Death"
Only when real, accepting, socially-engaged congregations band together to disavow those who would mix violence, religion and legislation will I accept the need for the "rebuilding of religious conservatism".
13
Do we need the Religious Right as a political movement? Douthat talks as if only the divisions in the Religious Right cost them the nomination: Cruz, Carson and Rubio splitting the vote.
But Cruz, Carson and Rubio were *remarkably* weak and awful candidates. The RRs divided themselves up to support in Cruz, a candidate that his own peers couldn't like or work with; a neuro-surgeon who had no experience politically and couldn't find ways to express himself; and a callow opportunist.
The failure of the Religious Right to win over more to the principle of "religious freedom" is that they support only their own views of religion, and only care about their own take on freedom. The freedoms of others who do not worship the same, who do not have the same moral beliefs are supposed to be suppressed by those who find the behavior sinful.
The balance I'd like to see - and I am a Church going Catholic - is to assure that everyone has the freedom to believe as they wish, but not the freedom to impose those beliefs. Imposing religion on others is theocracy. It is a tricky balance, and takes understanding and cooperation and compromise.
It would be easier if we lived in a place in which we all think and believe alike - but we don't. As a political movement, the Religious Right cannot accept that.
But Cruz, Carson and Rubio were *remarkably* weak and awful candidates. The RRs divided themselves up to support in Cruz, a candidate that his own peers couldn't like or work with; a neuro-surgeon who had no experience politically and couldn't find ways to express himself; and a callow opportunist.
The failure of the Religious Right to win over more to the principle of "religious freedom" is that they support only their own views of religion, and only care about their own take on freedom. The freedoms of others who do not worship the same, who do not have the same moral beliefs are supposed to be suppressed by those who find the behavior sinful.
The balance I'd like to see - and I am a Church going Catholic - is to assure that everyone has the freedom to believe as they wish, but not the freedom to impose those beliefs. Imposing religion on others is theocracy. It is a tricky balance, and takes understanding and cooperation and compromise.
It would be easier if we lived in a place in which we all think and believe alike - but we don't. As a political movement, the Religious Right cannot accept that.
386
Ross, Why did God put all that sweet crude oil under those Muslims?
It is God's Oil isn't it? Both Ben and Donald feel we should go over there and take the oil.
When religion stops being an entitlement for diminishing resources and more about acknowledging that are other non-Christian humans living on the planet, then your moral argument may have some merit.
It is God's Oil isn't it? Both Ben and Donald feel we should go over there and take the oil.
When religion stops being an entitlement for diminishing resources and more about acknowledging that are other non-Christian humans living on the planet, then your moral argument may have some merit.
6
The phrase "legal and regulatory pressures" the "religious right" would sink under if Clinton became President sounds like code for groups having to pay minimum wages, engage in collective bargaining, abide by standards embedded in workers' comp laws, adhere to the provisions of law compelling equal accommodation and equal opportunity be extended to all Americans regardless of race, religion, national origin, sexual preference, marital status? Does it mean that religious "charities" that spend most of their money to exorbitant salaries and personal living expenses of "ministers" be taxed just like other commercial enterprises? It's really the same phony GOP shibboleths of no government intervention and "free" markets designed to enable elitism and exclusivity.
The "religious" right was never about God or virtue or even religion. It's been around since Southern Senators moved to block tobacco restrictions in the 30s. The GOP reprised it with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Just like those Tea Party "patriots" and unrestricted gun rights advocates, the religious right was always about the crass politics of carving out another wedge the GOP so desperately needed in the body politic to win national elections. It essentially never worked in urban and coastal areas, and the West generally.
People of faith must speak up, but those who are sincere rarely wear the mantle of the religious right, a strictly secular group that vulgarly uses God as a mascot for its partisanship.
The "religious" right was never about God or virtue or even religion. It's been around since Southern Senators moved to block tobacco restrictions in the 30s. The GOP reprised it with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Just like those Tea Party "patriots" and unrestricted gun rights advocates, the religious right was always about the crass politics of carving out another wedge the GOP so desperately needed in the body politic to win national elections. It essentially never worked in urban and coastal areas, and the West generally.
People of faith must speak up, but those who are sincere rarely wear the mantle of the religious right, a strictly secular group that vulgarly uses God as a mascot for its partisanship.
5
As a clergyperson, I am allowed the chops to say the "Religious Right" is anything but religious.
It is a group that completely ignores the history, development and context of a text in a way the expresses both profound intentional ignorance and a willful disconnect from a cohesive discussion about why theology, deity and (though, not redundant, it will sound so to them) multi-theism - the latter constituting the best, most succinct description of who they are.
They preach intolerance, fear, and limited freedom while proclaiming they are seeking they exact opposite of each of those things to each other. At a point, they find ways to narrow down their acceptance of one another by continuing to impose self-invented rules for membership in their aberrant clan, all the while substituting their political bigotry for their religious doctrine.
The Religious Right is wrong. Period. When we - and they - begin to recognize that simple fact, we will have a chance to establish dialogue - something that will not happen, because it requires an open mind from a group of people who refuse to reach out to hands that are repeatedly extended to them.
Defend the Religious Right? Since when have that sick group been willing to defend anyone who doesn't walk in lockstep agreement with them?
It is a group that completely ignores the history, development and context of a text in a way the expresses both profound intentional ignorance and a willful disconnect from a cohesive discussion about why theology, deity and (though, not redundant, it will sound so to them) multi-theism - the latter constituting the best, most succinct description of who they are.
They preach intolerance, fear, and limited freedom while proclaiming they are seeking they exact opposite of each of those things to each other. At a point, they find ways to narrow down their acceptance of one another by continuing to impose self-invented rules for membership in their aberrant clan, all the while substituting their political bigotry for their religious doctrine.
The Religious Right is wrong. Period. When we - and they - begin to recognize that simple fact, we will have a chance to establish dialogue - something that will not happen, because it requires an open mind from a group of people who refuse to reach out to hands that are repeatedly extended to them.
Defend the Religious Right? Since when have that sick group been willing to defend anyone who doesn't walk in lockstep agreement with them?
622
Thank you, thank you for pointing out that the religious right is not a Christian movement. They are modern day Pharisees who practice hypocrisy and hate. As the old spiritual says, everybody talking about heaven ain't going there.
I attend a very conservative church. We are divided on who to vote for. Many of us including me are going to vote for Hillary. Trump has very bad fruit. Hateful speech , mainly lying, stiffing small contractors and working people, inciting violence, anti-immigration, multi-marriages and adultery to boot. To name a few. Hillary is not perfect but the she has worked for woman and children all her life. Been there for the powerless and definitely has the experience for the job. I am not happy with her abortion stance but she wants to expand things like birth control, health care and daycare that will reduce abortion. Trump is a charlatan who is just using gullible people and does not really care about this issue. He has supported every position on the issue according to what was expedient at the time. We do not have angels to choose from , just two flawed humans. One of these flawed humans will be our next president. I think Hillary is the better choice. So people of faith like all groups are not homogenous.
4
The religious conservatives and their mad insistence to force their religion that does not allow abortion on women who do not share their faith, need to be defeated.
Religious conservatives want to force a fetus to term not allowing women to make the decision to have an abortion based on their own faith. The scriptures are clear that beating a woman so she loses a fetus (obviously late term since no woman miscarriages when hit during the early months) is a crime punishable by fine to the husband. Killing an infant is murder punishable by death according to the Old Testament.
However the Tradition of the Church is against abortion and homosexuality for the same reason. In order to create large armies the church wanted as large an output of babies as possible. Of course in modern society armies are mechanized and use only a tiny % of the population to create armies for defense of offense. So the prohibition against homosexuality or abortion is no longer useful to society.
Religious conservatives were cynically manipulated by plutocrats who mobilized them to block fair taxation. It is time for religious conservatives to get out of politics and go back to their churches. If they want to spearhead changes in the law to conform with their beliefs they should lose their non-profit status. Furthermore it is against the US constitution to violate of religious freedom of others and that includes the freedom to abort a fetus.
Religious conservatives want to force a fetus to term not allowing women to make the decision to have an abortion based on their own faith. The scriptures are clear that beating a woman so she loses a fetus (obviously late term since no woman miscarriages when hit during the early months) is a crime punishable by fine to the husband. Killing an infant is murder punishable by death according to the Old Testament.
However the Tradition of the Church is against abortion and homosexuality for the same reason. In order to create large armies the church wanted as large an output of babies as possible. Of course in modern society armies are mechanized and use only a tiny % of the population to create armies for defense of offense. So the prohibition against homosexuality or abortion is no longer useful to society.
Religious conservatives were cynically manipulated by plutocrats who mobilized them to block fair taxation. It is time for religious conservatives to get out of politics and go back to their churches. If they want to spearhead changes in the law to conform with their beliefs they should lose their non-profit status. Furthermore it is against the US constitution to violate of religious freedom of others and that includes the freedom to abort a fetus.
3
Can't we hear a bit more from religious adherents who are less given over to static, authoritarian religion and to closed, tribal morality? There are those who subscribe to:
Dynamic religion: Religion that by practices, rituals, narratives and reflective teaching invite adherents to participate in an open morality, to honor those who are moral heroes within that context, and to view the creative arc of human and cosmic becoming as grounded in the invitational character of the call to compassion, forgiveness and love.
Open morality: A morality that is grounded in stable principles, but which emphasizes that each individual is bound in conscience to submit those principles to on-going rational reflection and to seriously attend to the often evolving, complex and frequently dilemma-charged concrete circumstances in which they are to be applied. Compassion and empathy for all others, even for one's enemies, are central to open morality. Moral leaders within a group that subscribes to an open morality are those who invite others to participate, with charity and compassion for all, in the mystery that resides in a shared creative present, in the mutuality of our co-presence with all other creatures, and in the mystery of, what is for each of us, an ambiguous and indeterminate future. The authenticity of moral leaders within an open morality is determined by the quality and universality of the questions they ask and by the examples they set before us.
Where would Jesus stand?
Dynamic religion: Religion that by practices, rituals, narratives and reflective teaching invite adherents to participate in an open morality, to honor those who are moral heroes within that context, and to view the creative arc of human and cosmic becoming as grounded in the invitational character of the call to compassion, forgiveness and love.
Open morality: A morality that is grounded in stable principles, but which emphasizes that each individual is bound in conscience to submit those principles to on-going rational reflection and to seriously attend to the often evolving, complex and frequently dilemma-charged concrete circumstances in which they are to be applied. Compassion and empathy for all others, even for one's enemies, are central to open morality. Moral leaders within a group that subscribes to an open morality are those who invite others to participate, with charity and compassion for all, in the mystery that resides in a shared creative present, in the mutuality of our co-presence with all other creatures, and in the mystery of, what is for each of us, an ambiguous and indeterminate future. The authenticity of moral leaders within an open morality is determined by the quality and universality of the questions they ask and by the examples they set before us.
Where would Jesus stand?
2
In religion, as in politics, there are those who experience--and are open to--the lure of a better, life enhancing future, and there are those who, by authoritarian means, seek to re-impose the strictures of a far less enlightened past, its static religion and closed morality:
Closed Morality: A morality in which the customs and traditions of a tribal group, as reinforced by authorities within the group, are prized over the reflective capacities of the individuals within the group. The importance of each individual's conscience is down-played, although often given lip-service. The authorities are recognized as the ultimate arbiters of right and wrong--to question them is generally itself rebuked as an obvious fault. Empathy for, and fidelity to, members of the tribe are stressed and rewarded by the authorities, but are not extended with anything approaching the same gusto to those who are "others"--that is, clearly not members of the tribe. Acknowledgement of complexity, of the growth of human knowledge, of changing natural environmental and social conditions, of concrete circumstances and of the existence of severe moral dilemmas are all given short-shrift. Members feel the weight of the past as dictating that: "One must, because one must. We must, because we always have done thusly." Within closed morality, leaders are prized for their power to provide definitive answers and, at least in appearance, for their own conformity to the rigid code they themselves promulgate.
Closed Morality: A morality in which the customs and traditions of a tribal group, as reinforced by authorities within the group, are prized over the reflective capacities of the individuals within the group. The importance of each individual's conscience is down-played, although often given lip-service. The authorities are recognized as the ultimate arbiters of right and wrong--to question them is generally itself rebuked as an obvious fault. Empathy for, and fidelity to, members of the tribe are stressed and rewarded by the authorities, but are not extended with anything approaching the same gusto to those who are "others"--that is, clearly not members of the tribe. Acknowledgement of complexity, of the growth of human knowledge, of changing natural environmental and social conditions, of concrete circumstances and of the existence of severe moral dilemmas are all given short-shrift. Members feel the weight of the past as dictating that: "One must, because one must. We must, because we always have done thusly." Within closed morality, leaders are prized for their power to provide definitive answers and, at least in appearance, for their own conformity to the rigid code they themselves promulgate.
1
I prided myself on being an independent thinker and voter until the Republican party joined forces with so-called evangelical Christians. I decided that I would not vote Republican again until they unhitched themselves from this unholy alliance. Democrats do a lot more for the poor, the forgotten and the marginalized than the Republican party has ever done.
But here's the thing: it's all about abortion, and, ultimately, control. Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land, and a Clinton presidency along with judicial appointments will merely uphold that law. A Trump presidency plus judicial appointments will do...what? Go after Roe vs. Wade PLUS several other amendments while they're at it? Tear all of our rights to shreds?
I really don't understand why people can't admit that abortion is usually a last resort, and if certain individuals with certain beliefs don't want to exercise that option, then they shouldn't. Let the rest of us decide for ourselves, and keep other options (such as birth control and free clinics) on the table. And please - move on to more pressing concerns like climate change, the economy, education and our infrastructure so that the children who are born into this country have a decent chance at life and a good place to live.
But here's the thing: it's all about abortion, and, ultimately, control. Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land, and a Clinton presidency along with judicial appointments will merely uphold that law. A Trump presidency plus judicial appointments will do...what? Go after Roe vs. Wade PLUS several other amendments while they're at it? Tear all of our rights to shreds?
I really don't understand why people can't admit that abortion is usually a last resort, and if certain individuals with certain beliefs don't want to exercise that option, then they shouldn't. Let the rest of us decide for ourselves, and keep other options (such as birth control and free clinics) on the table. And please - move on to more pressing concerns like climate change, the economy, education and our infrastructure so that the children who are born into this country have a decent chance at life and a good place to live.
9
I have to admit I don't understand how social liberalism is unacceptable to the religious right. Our country is one of freedom of religion. The way I see social liberalism, it means that every form of religion or non-religion is protected, and that Christian values are not necessarily superior. This may mean some regulation. Since the US has been so dominantly white and Christian for its history, a bias towards those institutions is inherent. The regulations the religious right fear are designed to help minority religions, LGBTQ+, etc. have a place in society - the same way civil rights laws have made some (but not complete) progress in addressing racial oppression.
The religious right can try as hard as they want to proselytize and spread the Christian message, but they need to do so without help from the state. It seems to me that help from the state is what they get when the state fails to put up regulations in order to equalize the current pro-Christian status-quo in the country.
I understand that it is hard for one of sincere faith to support or sit idly by when they see laws they feel don't promote their worldview passed or considered. It goes against the core of their values. But the so-called "Religious freedom" laws that allow Christians to discriminate have been pushed around the country, and are the exact type of legal and regulatory pressure Mr. Douthat says the religious right are opposed to. It's just that they oppress non-Christians, so it's okay.
The religious right can try as hard as they want to proselytize and spread the Christian message, but they need to do so without help from the state. It seems to me that help from the state is what they get when the state fails to put up regulations in order to equalize the current pro-Christian status-quo in the country.
I understand that it is hard for one of sincere faith to support or sit idly by when they see laws they feel don't promote their worldview passed or considered. It goes against the core of their values. But the so-called "Religious freedom" laws that allow Christians to discriminate have been pushed around the country, and are the exact type of legal and regulatory pressure Mr. Douthat says the religious right are opposed to. It's just that they oppress non-Christians, so it's okay.
2
I sort of have compassion for the Christian conservatives who yearn for times past when their beliefs were majority, mainstream, dominant and prevalent. However, even in the good old days, these same Christians touted the glories of our constitutional republic which guaranteed religious freedom. They just made the mistake of believing it only referred to them!
What has happened in the six decades of my lifetime is the influx of non-Christians via immigration and the lessening of dogmatic adherence to Christian tenets by many in the successive generations of American Christians whose educational experiences and interactions with persons of other faiths broadened their tolerance for diversity along with their respect for ideas and beliefs their parents and grandparents would have considered shocking and alien.
Finally, the rigid, right-wing evangelical disdain for scientific facts: evolution, climate change, etc., just does not cut it with those of us with brains formed by our parents' sacrifice to send us to the best parochial schools. For the love of God: my 4th grade teacher, a nun, in the 1960s, taught us Darwin's theory of evolution! Watching Mike Pence dispute it half a century later is just lame.
What has happened in the six decades of my lifetime is the influx of non-Christians via immigration and the lessening of dogmatic adherence to Christian tenets by many in the successive generations of American Christians whose educational experiences and interactions with persons of other faiths broadened their tolerance for diversity along with their respect for ideas and beliefs their parents and grandparents would have considered shocking and alien.
Finally, the rigid, right-wing evangelical disdain for scientific facts: evolution, climate change, etc., just does not cut it with those of us with brains formed by our parents' sacrifice to send us to the best parochial schools. For the love of God: my 4th grade teacher, a nun, in the 1960s, taught us Darwin's theory of evolution! Watching Mike Pence dispute it half a century later is just lame.
9
I recently attended a pro-life rally in Manhattan; and one of the speakers said that no matter who is elected to the presidency, we must continue to speak out against the destruction of abortion. There were many young people in attendance and they are the future of the pro-life movement. It only grows and becomes stronger every year.
It is certain that Hillary Clinton will direct more funds toward Planned Parenthood which is the largest abortion provider in the US. They perform over 300,000 of them every year. Cecile Richards, the PP president, is a major donor to the Democratic Party and she needs their support in order to continue in the abortion business. Mrs. Clinton feels abortions should be allowed to occur up until the time the woman is about to give birth. That is sheer madness and should never be allowed in a civilized society.
Mrs. Clinton also wants to eliminate the Hyde Amendment which will further increase abortions. This must not happen. Abortion is a dirty business and must end. Too many innocent lives are being destroyed and that is a tragedy. This is the civil rights issue of the day and a very important one.
It is certain that Hillary Clinton will direct more funds toward Planned Parenthood which is the largest abortion provider in the US. They perform over 300,000 of them every year. Cecile Richards, the PP president, is a major donor to the Democratic Party and she needs their support in order to continue in the abortion business. Mrs. Clinton feels abortions should be allowed to occur up until the time the woman is about to give birth. That is sheer madness and should never be allowed in a civilized society.
Mrs. Clinton also wants to eliminate the Hyde Amendment which will further increase abortions. This must not happen. Abortion is a dirty business and must end. Too many innocent lives are being destroyed and that is a tragedy. This is the civil rights issue of the day and a very important one.
1
It is infuriating to see such a distinguished columnist plunge into an obvious contradiction. In his nostalgic defense of a "transcendent" religious right, Mr. Douthat is asking us to elevate a specific set of beliefs (conservative "Christianity"), because otherwise the right may fall to dark and tribal tendencies. In other words, without my tribe, tribalism will engulf us.
I wish he would read the article by Pamela Druckerman posted by the Times just yesterday and start focusing on the real life struggles of families, rather than continuing with the obsession over unborn fetuses. The surprise appearance of maternity leave and child care in this election cycle owe absolutely nothing to the religious right. Conservative Christians in this country are too focused on imposing ideological "pro-life" purity to actually try to walk in the shoes of distressed parents and attempt to figure out ways to support the post-birth challenge of raising children in the real world.
It is always a mistake to believe that without religion there can be no morality. We don't need more "transcendental" Christians in our political life (whatever that means). We just need more principled individuals, no matter what their religious beliefs may be.
I wish he would read the article by Pamela Druckerman posted by the Times just yesterday and start focusing on the real life struggles of families, rather than continuing with the obsession over unborn fetuses. The surprise appearance of maternity leave and child care in this election cycle owe absolutely nothing to the religious right. Conservative Christians in this country are too focused on imposing ideological "pro-life" purity to actually try to walk in the shoes of distressed parents and attempt to figure out ways to support the post-birth challenge of raising children in the real world.
It is always a mistake to believe that without religion there can be no morality. We don't need more "transcendental" Christians in our political life (whatever that means). We just need more principled individuals, no matter what their religious beliefs may be.
9
The argument that America needs a religious right wing movement holds about as much water as a puddle with a Cat 5 hurricane blowing onshore. That all societies require moral guidance and deep awareness of moral boundaries should not be confused with a narrow minded movement, one that hitched its star to preacher/politicians, like the original Falwell, who were openly jealous of the power, prestige, money and influence that came Martin Luther King's way and wanted a piece of that action however they could get it.
Falwell's "Moral Majority" was misnamed on both counts. It was a minority, politically motivated movement that sought morality in convenience, picking targets of opportunity here and there that would resonate with the rural masses. "God" has now somehow told millions of evangelicals that he can use Trump regardless of his widely professed moral failings (by their standards, if nothing else), endless boastfulness, countless insults and continual attacks on everything, including an on-going threat to democracy and democratic institutions, like the rule of law. How was this message from god received and by whom?
It is clear that religion and politics, a volatile mix at any time, are throughly divorced from reasoned application by those who call themselves conservative and right wing. Religion was merely an opportune gathering point. Seeking political results, religious beliefs were cast aside or made subservient long ago. We only now see the blank faced evidence.
Falwell's "Moral Majority" was misnamed on both counts. It was a minority, politically motivated movement that sought morality in convenience, picking targets of opportunity here and there that would resonate with the rural masses. "God" has now somehow told millions of evangelicals that he can use Trump regardless of his widely professed moral failings (by their standards, if nothing else), endless boastfulness, countless insults and continual attacks on everything, including an on-going threat to democracy and democratic institutions, like the rule of law. How was this message from god received and by whom?
It is clear that religion and politics, a volatile mix at any time, are throughly divorced from reasoned application by those who call themselves conservative and right wing. Religion was merely an opportune gathering point. Seeking political results, religious beliefs were cast aside or made subservient long ago. We only now see the blank faced evidence.
5
I lived in a deeply red Christian conservative area where (R) is all you need to get elected. People vote for one reason only: abortion. They turn a blind eye to the most egregious, criminal, anti-democratic behavior of their pro-life politicians, indifferent to the suffering, even when it's their own. I blame these voters for much of democracy's dysfunction. I believe comprehensive sex ed, high quality healthcare and universal access to birth control is preferable to corruption, wars, welfare for the rich, plundering our environment, guns everywhere, privatization and chastity belts. Living in this community, I can attest that Republican governance is killing us and chastity belts don't work.
14
People can be awful, deplorable even. They corrupt the beautiful and acclaim the ugly.
But the Christians I know are loving. Kind. Generous. Intelligent. Hopeful. Strong. Merciful. Communal. Family-focused. Peacemakers.
I'm so sorry for all the commenters who have not experienced this and who only know the noisy frauds.
Please stop mistaking the alt right Trumpians for the Christians who simply cannot bring themselves to vote for anyone in a party that says it's okay to murder inconvenient children. Maybe if the left had done a better job promoting their life-affirming policies rather than what Christians see as a license to kill millions over the years, then there would be a lot fewer red states and a much more functional Congress.
Once again this election cycle, people I love dearly will vote differently than I will. I understand their choices, which we've all made with much prayer and contemplation. Most will choose an independent or write-in candidate. I'll be the token Democrat. We'll all still be friends on November 9.
We're in Tennessee, which is a foregone conclusion for the presidency, but my heart goes out to the good people in the swing states who know their votes really could make a difference between two candidates who they consider equally revolting for different reasons.
But the Christians I know are loving. Kind. Generous. Intelligent. Hopeful. Strong. Merciful. Communal. Family-focused. Peacemakers.
I'm so sorry for all the commenters who have not experienced this and who only know the noisy frauds.
Please stop mistaking the alt right Trumpians for the Christians who simply cannot bring themselves to vote for anyone in a party that says it's okay to murder inconvenient children. Maybe if the left had done a better job promoting their life-affirming policies rather than what Christians see as a license to kill millions over the years, then there would be a lot fewer red states and a much more functional Congress.
Once again this election cycle, people I love dearly will vote differently than I will. I understand their choices, which we've all made with much prayer and contemplation. Most will choose an independent or write-in candidate. I'll be the token Democrat. We'll all still be friends on November 9.
We're in Tennessee, which is a foregone conclusion for the presidency, but my heart goes out to the good people in the swing states who know their votes really could make a difference between two candidates who they consider equally revolting for different reasons.
2
No, after this election we won't be friends. As long as you parade around with your religious beliefs declaring doctors and women to be criminals for expressing their constitutional right to decide their own future, you are a problem. I'm not going to let up on this with all of the fervency that you falsely claim.
When I read your title, I think "I disagree".
However, as I read the post of gemli and (How many is it today, 5?) the posts of Socrates, I think "If these are the exponents of an irreligious or anti-religious nation, these sarcastic and cynical screeds, these devastating put-downs of people with whom they cross swords...I think 'not so fast'."
I am willing to listen to the transcendent message of Christ, although it steps on my free will minute by minute. The world view promulgated by gemli and Socrates (and we have pretty much seen its entirety over these past 3-5 years) probably now constitutes more written words than you will find in the New International Version Bible. My bet is that not a single soul will be quoting gemli or Socrates 2,000 years from today. And they reach millions of readers each morning. They certainly cannot be criticized for lacking media support.
Christ's message is persistent and troubles us. For that reason it has endured like no other. I challenge a single reader to quote a single line from one of gemli's or Socrates's posts a week ago or older.
That, dear readers, is the difference. Even Christian Liberals pivot to face the world with their updated version of Scripture, but it is the touchstone they cannot leave fully behind.
However, as I read the post of gemli and (How many is it today, 5?) the posts of Socrates, I think "If these are the exponents of an irreligious or anti-religious nation, these sarcastic and cynical screeds, these devastating put-downs of people with whom they cross swords...I think 'not so fast'."
I am willing to listen to the transcendent message of Christ, although it steps on my free will minute by minute. The world view promulgated by gemli and Socrates (and we have pretty much seen its entirety over these past 3-5 years) probably now constitutes more written words than you will find in the New International Version Bible. My bet is that not a single soul will be quoting gemli or Socrates 2,000 years from today. And they reach millions of readers each morning. They certainly cannot be criticized for lacking media support.
Christ's message is persistent and troubles us. For that reason it has endured like no other. I challenge a single reader to quote a single line from one of gemli's or Socrates's posts a week ago or older.
That, dear readers, is the difference. Even Christian Liberals pivot to face the world with their updated version of Scripture, but it is the touchstone they cannot leave fully behind.
2
Christ's message is persistent because Christians won't shut up about it. Free bibles in every hotel room. Makes me want to puke whenever I look in the drawer. It troubles me that even as Christs message is one of peace, tolerance and outreach to the poor, this expressed itself in racism, attacking the poor and greed. So don't expect anything but cynical sarcastic screeds. You are disgusting and utterly naked in your candidate Trump. Here in America, you can have your religion, just keep it to yourself.
Ross, you try so hard to justify and excuse what cannot truly be justified or excused. The Religious Right in this country has never been about religion, it has always been about power and money. When schools in the south were desegregated, white evangelicals set up "Christian" academies to preserve not only segregation but their power over the educational system. The alliance between the GOP and the religious right started after Roe v Wade and gave the hucksters and charlatans like Falwell (Sr. & Jr.), Ralph Reed. Franklin Graham, James Dobson, etc. access to political power and to exemptions from taxes for their nakedly secular and political activities. And now, as the GOP has drifted far from its ideals into the world of hate, greed and sexual predation (wonder why so many evangelicals have no problem with Trump's behavior? look at what they say about man's dominance over woman as ordered by god in the Bible), they are trapped. Trapped between what faith they may have had and their lust for power and the almighty dollar.
This is not a new phenomenon. In Medieval Spain, the co-mingling of religion and political power led to the Inquisition. In England the co-mingling of religion and political power led to the assassination of Thomas Becket in the Cathedral at Canterbury. In Massachusetts Bay the co-mingling of religion and political power led to the Salem Witch trials. And in the Middle East today, the co-mingling of religion and political power has led to war after war.
This is not a new phenomenon. In Medieval Spain, the co-mingling of religion and political power led to the Inquisition. In England the co-mingling of religion and political power led to the assassination of Thomas Becket in the Cathedral at Canterbury. In Massachusetts Bay the co-mingling of religion and political power led to the Salem Witch trials. And in the Middle East today, the co-mingling of religion and political power has led to war after war.
13
Though he is explicit on the matter of abortion, Mr. Douthat uses "religious liberty" in the same dogwhistle fashion as other culture warriors on the issue of gay people. Now that they have definitively lost the fight on marriage equality, the new scheme is to use "religious liberty" as an excuse to stop serving gay people in the public square, in the same way the previous generation attempted to deny civil rights to black people. They hold up one florist, one photographer, and two cake makers as examples of terribly gay people have "bullied" the good pious folks, and conflate mixing flour and sugar with being a groom or a groom in a wedding. but until the religious conservatives understand the First Amendment, including the part about no government sponsored religion, they will continue to further ostracize themselves from the public square. It is the reason I most fear a Trump presidency. If his perfect judicial model is the uber Catholic bigotry of Scalia, I can imagine a time in my golden years, where while visiting a small town somewhere in my own country, some inn owner will deny my husband and I a room based on their "sincerely held religious beliefs." Unthinkable, but possible, despite how much that very idea refutes the separation of church and state imagined by our fore fathers. I for one hope that not only will the era of the Falwell be forever stamped out, but that the US Treasury will wise up and start taxing the churches.
12
There is no defense of a movement that for 40 years has worked tirelessly to deprive millions of Americans - particularly women and GLBT - of their civil and religious liberty, enabling an abusive political culture in the process. None.
On abortion: first, the morality of abortion is handled in different ways by every religion, including different branches of Christianity. To bring our laws in line with the DOCTRINE of Roman Catholicism and Evangelicals is a gross violation of religious liberty. Second, the ability to legally put a women's health before her fetus is essential to empowering doctors to make decisions in difficult medical cases, and overbearing legal restrictions on abortion have resulted in horrific situations for women where they exist - see Ecuador, Ireland, and Catholic hospitals for examples. Third, elective abortion is mostly caused by poverty and lack of access to contraception, irregardless of legality. Lessen poverty and increase access to contraception (not "NFP" - real contraception) for less abortion. The Religious Right has done everything to work against reducing the conditions that lead to abortion.
The "pro-life" movement lives in a delusional, self righteous power fantasy. I used to be a part of it. I graduated from a so called "faithful" Catholic college. I marched for "life." Then I grew up.
Supporting a maniac like Trump so the "Pro-Life" movement can continue their own assault on America is an explanation, but not an excuse.
On abortion: first, the morality of abortion is handled in different ways by every religion, including different branches of Christianity. To bring our laws in line with the DOCTRINE of Roman Catholicism and Evangelicals is a gross violation of religious liberty. Second, the ability to legally put a women's health before her fetus is essential to empowering doctors to make decisions in difficult medical cases, and overbearing legal restrictions on abortion have resulted in horrific situations for women where they exist - see Ecuador, Ireland, and Catholic hospitals for examples. Third, elective abortion is mostly caused by poverty and lack of access to contraception, irregardless of legality. Lessen poverty and increase access to contraception (not "NFP" - real contraception) for less abortion. The Religious Right has done everything to work against reducing the conditions that lead to abortion.
The "pro-life" movement lives in a delusional, self righteous power fantasy. I used to be a part of it. I graduated from a so called "faithful" Catholic college. I marched for "life." Then I grew up.
Supporting a maniac like Trump so the "Pro-Life" movement can continue their own assault on America is an explanation, but not an excuse.
18
Mr. Douthat is quite wrong when he refers to the "allegedly theocratic ambitions." There's nothing merely alleged about it. Beginning at the farthest extremity - the Christian Dominion movement - the ambition to create a theocracy is clearly stated. However one need not go nearly that far right to find the same ambitions in both word and deed. As an LGBT activist, I've spent a good deal of my life fighting the unrelenting efforts of conservative Christians to impose their values and beliefs on me and my community as if their values and theology were laws of the universe rather than the folk beliefs of a particular sect on a small planet at the edge of a not very important galaxy. At every step of the Gay Liberation movement conservative Christians were there to try to block the path. Now that they are in disarray, Mr. Douthat seems to feel a bit sorry for them and says we need them. "like a hole in the head" I say. My youthful reading of The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius provided an excellent moral framework for life. He wrote of duty, honor and kindness without the expectation of reward. Marcus Aurelius was enough for me but we have always welcomed and benefited from the support of Christians who are more concerned with kindness and respect for others than with forcing everyone to live in accord with a narrow theology. However, the latter type is legion and their efforts can be seen in school boards, legislatures and megachurches all over the nation. They are not alleged.
15
Ross Interestering.
You and the Christian right are on the verge of complete collapse, the destruction of Reagan's revolution. There you go trying to justify it. Lets be clear
Trumps nomination is not a surprise. The Reagan revolution began with him advocating States rights in Philadelphia Mississippi. The site of the brutal murder of three young civil rights workers. He formed a coalition of racist southerns and evangelical christians, finally they would get everything they wanted. For twenty eight years their coalition has resulted in the world we live in today. Now they have woken up and oh my like the king who realizes he has no cloths. They are shocked at the end result. Not at that fact that he is within striking distance of Presidency oh no, their concern?
That the supreme court may be changed for generations.
No compromise, no reality, no change, climate or other wise. Deny the facts in front of you, believe that multinationals are not interested in profits but actually might care about your values. In the end Trump is the only person who could get nominated. He is all they have. No matter, if he actually has no clue.
No matter if he degrades women or dare I say it if he rapes women. Instead of reaching out to Clinton who in her heart of hearts is one of them and compromising. Instead of getting most of what they want. They choose no compromise. In the end they choose self destruction.
Chuck from Ohio.
You and the Christian right are on the verge of complete collapse, the destruction of Reagan's revolution. There you go trying to justify it. Lets be clear
Trumps nomination is not a surprise. The Reagan revolution began with him advocating States rights in Philadelphia Mississippi. The site of the brutal murder of three young civil rights workers. He formed a coalition of racist southerns and evangelical christians, finally they would get everything they wanted. For twenty eight years their coalition has resulted in the world we live in today. Now they have woken up and oh my like the king who realizes he has no cloths. They are shocked at the end result. Not at that fact that he is within striking distance of Presidency oh no, their concern?
That the supreme court may be changed for generations.
No compromise, no reality, no change, climate or other wise. Deny the facts in front of you, believe that multinationals are not interested in profits but actually might care about your values. In the end Trump is the only person who could get nominated. He is all they have. No matter, if he actually has no clue.
No matter if he degrades women or dare I say it if he rapes women. Instead of reaching out to Clinton who in her heart of hearts is one of them and compromising. Instead of getting most of what they want. They choose no compromise. In the end they choose self destruction.
Chuck from Ohio.
13
Mr. Douthat, if the religious right wants to be pro-life, the movement should not support a candidate who has stated that business is subject to excessive regulatory constraints, which is Mr. Trump’s consistent position. Because Mr. Trump feels that there is too much regulation of business, he wants to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency and ignore or annul any treaties signed by the United States that attempt to ameliorate or prevent the negative effects of climate change.
In a world following Mr. Trump’s policies, businesses would be free to pollute and destroy the environment in whatever way they wanted to. This would make our air less safe to breathe, our water less safe to drink, and our food less safe to eat. This would dramatically increase the possibility of devastating global warming due to climate change, which threatens to make the world uninhabitable and puts the entire human race of 7,000,000,000 plus people at risk.
People who are pro-life should not be in favor of a candidate whose espoused policies are more likely to put the entire human race at risk, which would end up killing far more people than the number of abortions performed.
In a world following Mr. Trump’s policies, businesses would be free to pollute and destroy the environment in whatever way they wanted to. This would make our air less safe to breathe, our water less safe to drink, and our food less safe to eat. This would dramatically increase the possibility of devastating global warming due to climate change, which threatens to make the world uninhabitable and puts the entire human race of 7,000,000,000 plus people at risk.
People who are pro-life should not be in favor of a candidate whose espoused policies are more likely to put the entire human race at risk, which would end up killing far more people than the number of abortions performed.
15
According to a 2014 study by the Guttmacher Institute, the abortion rate declined by 13% during President Obama's first six years in office. This was in line with a "long-term downward trend" that began in 1981 — but note that the most salient outlier to the trend was from 2005-2008, under George W. Bush, anti-abortion and darling of the religious right.
Correlation is not (necessarily) causation. However, Douthat's column brings a couple of notions into relief:
1) Abortion politics — to a large extent an invention of craven theo-political schemers in the post-Goldwater GOP, who first tried to zero in on civil rights and fanning the flames of racial divide — has played an outsized role in elections, especially for president, since the end of the '60s.
2) An outright ban on an abortion need not be the only goal. Surely both pro-choice and pro-life forces could work together to ensure that the rate of abortion continues to decline.
3) Alas, when one's primary motivation is an unyielding belief in supernatural propositions for which there is no evidence — at least none that would satisfy a court of law; an old book and tender feelings won't do it — such compromise becomes impossible.
4) Pre-fetal-viability, the abortion question is strictly a religious argument: considering most humans' blithe acceptance of inflicting torture on living, breathing, sentient creatures (think pigs and chickens), it is all about a "soul," and therefore a question of conscience.
Correlation is not (necessarily) causation. However, Douthat's column brings a couple of notions into relief:
1) Abortion politics — to a large extent an invention of craven theo-political schemers in the post-Goldwater GOP, who first tried to zero in on civil rights and fanning the flames of racial divide — has played an outsized role in elections, especially for president, since the end of the '60s.
2) An outright ban on an abortion need not be the only goal. Surely both pro-choice and pro-life forces could work together to ensure that the rate of abortion continues to decline.
3) Alas, when one's primary motivation is an unyielding belief in supernatural propositions for which there is no evidence — at least none that would satisfy a court of law; an old book and tender feelings won't do it — such compromise becomes impossible.
4) Pre-fetal-viability, the abortion question is strictly a religious argument: considering most humans' blithe acceptance of inflicting torture on living, breathing, sentient creatures (think pigs and chickens), it is all about a "soul," and therefore a question of conscience.
13
"Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy may not be a sufficient reason to hand the Oval Office to a man like Donald Trump..."
Where is any evidence that Clinton would support "legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy'? The law of the land since around 1972 applies to pregnancies within the first term, meaning the first three months. Interestingly, When Republicans have been in power at times since 1972, have there been any overt attempts to change this? Moreover, do we want to go to a system where the poor have to go back to having abortions with coat hanger type methods while the wealthy can just go to some other county where abortion is legal to have there abortions? Unfortunately, for so many evangelicals the abortion issue is their ONLY issue upon which they vote. My own mother and others in my extended mostly evangelical family are perfect examples to me.
Where is any evidence that Clinton would support "legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy'? The law of the land since around 1972 applies to pregnancies within the first term, meaning the first three months. Interestingly, When Republicans have been in power at times since 1972, have there been any overt attempts to change this? Moreover, do we want to go to a system where the poor have to go back to having abortions with coat hanger type methods while the wealthy can just go to some other county where abortion is legal to have there abortions? Unfortunately, for so many evangelicals the abortion issue is their ONLY issue upon which they vote. My own mother and others in my extended mostly evangelical family are perfect examples to me.
5
I don't understand the religious right. Actually, I don't understand most religious people at all.
I am not a theist, but have tried to understand the comfort, certainty, moral direction, intellectual enquiry or other things that lead someone to embrace theism. I can sometimes wrap my head around some of it.
I can only conclude that any relationship that a theist person has with their deity must be so deeply personal that it would defy description to another person. That thought leads to my antipathy to organised religion. I can somewhat understand the desire by the theist person to find an opportunity to discuss with others their thoughts and feelings, and their understanding of their personal relationships with their deity. A club of like minded people who enjoy from time to time discussing their personal thoughts.
That is not what I see in the loudest religious organisations, and in particular the 'religious right'. All I see are people who have forsaken any deeply personal connection, if they ever had one, for a desire to enforce their mostly poorly thought out beliefs and modes of behaviour on others. They appear to have forsaken what they think has been spoken to them by a deity on a personal basis for a political, new age, crusade.
When I see religious people of any persuasion conduct their lives in a way that respects other people, they get my respect in return.
Mr. Douthat, I see none of that in any person who seeks to control the bodies of others.
I am not a theist, but have tried to understand the comfort, certainty, moral direction, intellectual enquiry or other things that lead someone to embrace theism. I can sometimes wrap my head around some of it.
I can only conclude that any relationship that a theist person has with their deity must be so deeply personal that it would defy description to another person. That thought leads to my antipathy to organised religion. I can somewhat understand the desire by the theist person to find an opportunity to discuss with others their thoughts and feelings, and their understanding of their personal relationships with their deity. A club of like minded people who enjoy from time to time discussing their personal thoughts.
That is not what I see in the loudest religious organisations, and in particular the 'religious right'. All I see are people who have forsaken any deeply personal connection, if they ever had one, for a desire to enforce their mostly poorly thought out beliefs and modes of behaviour on others. They appear to have forsaken what they think has been spoken to them by a deity on a personal basis for a political, new age, crusade.
When I see religious people of any persuasion conduct their lives in a way that respects other people, they get my respect in return.
Mr. Douthat, I see none of that in any person who seeks to control the bodies of others.
304
Isn't it the Religious Wrong for supporting Trump given his sexual aggression, lies and inciting of racism?
34
The religious right has never been so wrong than by supporting the lying, lecherous, tax-dodging, violence-fomenting Prosperity Gospel Lothario Donald Trump.
It's nearly impossible to match the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of Donald Trump, but the religious right has matched it, proudly walking Trump down the American aisle in the church of their severely poisoned minds.
The religious right got Trumped by a con artist, proof positive that the religious right has lost its mind, its heart and its soul.....something honest observers have known for a long, long time.
Trump-Pence-Religious Right 2016: Moral Bankruptcy For A Brighter Tomorrow
It's nearly impossible to match the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of Donald Trump, but the religious right has matched it, proudly walking Trump down the American aisle in the church of their severely poisoned minds.
The religious right got Trumped by a con artist, proof positive that the religious right has lost its mind, its heart and its soul.....something honest observers have known for a long, long time.
Trump-Pence-Religious Right 2016: Moral Bankruptcy For A Brighter Tomorrow
247
Ross Douthat -
I read your continuous lame attempts at defending the Religious Right, painting them out as some kind of victim of the shifting sands of the political landscape in this country.
I have seen nothing in the last thirty years since the rise of the Religious Right that warrants a defense of their wishes. They have the same religious rights as everyone else. No less and no more. If anything, they have tried to reverse fifty years of SCOTUS rulings that protected the rest of us secular Christians - as well as people of other religious faiths - from the Religious Rights spiritual hegemony that lorded over this country for so long.
Contrary to the RR's popular belief, not all of our Founding Fathers were religious. Nor even believed in a Christian God. Which is precisely why they insisted on a separation of Church and State by inserting the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment. To prevent any religion, sect, denomination or spiritual persuasion from holding sway over the rest of us.
Thank God . . .
Mr. Douthat, the Religious Right lost it's moral standing precisely for the same reasons the GOP has lost it's political standing in this election. They over-reached for too long, the backlash has been strong and fierce, and the consequences are that they now will be relegated to little more than another "Carrie Nation footnote" in the annals of American history.
I read your continuous lame attempts at defending the Religious Right, painting them out as some kind of victim of the shifting sands of the political landscape in this country.
I have seen nothing in the last thirty years since the rise of the Religious Right that warrants a defense of their wishes. They have the same religious rights as everyone else. No less and no more. If anything, they have tried to reverse fifty years of SCOTUS rulings that protected the rest of us secular Christians - as well as people of other religious faiths - from the Religious Rights spiritual hegemony that lorded over this country for so long.
Contrary to the RR's popular belief, not all of our Founding Fathers were religious. Nor even believed in a Christian God. Which is precisely why they insisted on a separation of Church and State by inserting the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment. To prevent any religion, sect, denomination or spiritual persuasion from holding sway over the rest of us.
Thank God . . .
Mr. Douthat, the Religious Right lost it's moral standing precisely for the same reasons the GOP has lost it's political standing in this election. They over-reached for too long, the backlash has been strong and fierce, and the consequences are that they now will be relegated to little more than another "Carrie Nation footnote" in the annals of American history.
103
Douthat seems to be arguing at the end that non-religious conservatism will be an unethical ("tribal, cruel, and very dark") conservatism. Surely morality does not depend on religion. One can be pro-life or at least anti-late term abortion) without being religious. All you need to do is place a strong value on human life especially late in the pregnancy term. And one can believe in racial, sexual equality and tolerance without being religious. Being an atheist and a conservative at least I don't see the inconsistency.
On the other hand, as an atheist, conservative I have always welcomed the religious into the conservative movement for the simple reason that many of the things I value (life, sexual and racial equality, tolerance, non-materialism, etc.) are promoted by the religious.
On the other hand, as an atheist, conservative I have always welcomed the religious into the conservative movement for the simple reason that many of the things I value (life, sexual and racial equality, tolerance, non-materialism, etc.) are promoted by the religious.
25
"On the other hand, as an atheist, conservative I have always welcomed the religious into the conservative movement for the simple reason that many of the things I value (life, sexual and racial equality, tolerance, non-materialism, etc.) are promoted by the religious."
Are you serious?
Are you serious?
Life,sexual and racial equality, tolerance, non-materialism, are promoted by the religious is a blatant lie. Life, as in all the people who have been slaughtered in the name religion through out history. sexual and racial equality, as in nuns being equal to priest and mormons not allowing blacks into their church until the late seventies, tolerance, as in all the tolerance in northern Ireland and the middle east, and non-materialism, as in the Vatican and every mega church preacher in this country telling the congregations that they will be wealthy if the only give them every penny they have.Religion is and has been the most insidious crime ever committed against the human race.
The fundamental social morality that we have is liberalism. The tradition of Hobbes, Rousseau, Locke, Kant, and Hegel, and J. S. Mill. Were it not for this tradition, that secularized Christianity, and took away its fundamentalness, bringing tolerance to it, Christianity would be the solidly theocratic force Douthat says it is not. It is a shame that the NYTimes has ignorant columnists from Douthat to Down to David Brooks, who nothing about the political dynamics and long term trends that created the modern world.
I'm not sure Mr. D makes the case that a moral movement must necessarily be religious. We need a religious right to care about moral matters he thinks, but why does it have to be centered in Christianity?
98
Specifically "conservative" Christianity. There are millions of mainline Protestants and mainstream Roman Catholics in the US who do not support the Religious Right and are happy to make common cause with people of other faiths and people who are secular for the discernment of a moral and ethical core for our society.
The Religious Right is toxic to our conversation on morality because they do not want a conversation; they want a battle only they can win, and the rest of us are an enemy that must be subdued, with political manipulation and the force of law if necessary.
The Religious Right is toxic to our conversation on morality because they do not want a conversation; they want a battle only they can win, and the rest of us are an enemy that must be subdued, with political manipulation and the force of law if necessary.
yes, religion and morality can be and are too frequently, mutually exclusive.
@Dr. Dillamond
Which view should it be centered on? Liberals often cite inherent human goodness and kindness as defense of a world without religion.
When, pray tell, will that world arrive? When we all become scientists and put away "fairy tales"?
Which view should it be centered on? Liberals often cite inherent human goodness and kindness as defense of a world without religion.
When, pray tell, will that world arrive? When we all become scientists and put away "fairy tales"?
As a left leaning Christian, I wish that all Christians would push for greater access to birth control and sex education, with a goal of reducing the need for abortions.
I think that would be far more effective in the long run than picketing clinics, demonizing Planned Parenthood, funding limitless legal challenges, and making legal abortions almost impossible in certain areas.
I think that would be far more effective in the long run than picketing clinics, demonizing Planned Parenthood, funding limitless legal challenges, and making legal abortions almost impossible in certain areas.
44
There is no god, no established religion, and no religious test for public office in our Constitution. But it does guarantee religious liberty and freedom of association for all. Thomas Jefferson's apt metaphor of that great Wall of Separation between church and state still works today because good fences make good neighbors.
"With or without religion good people will do good and evil people will do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg, American Nobel Prize winner in physics.
"With or without religion good people will do good and evil people will do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg, American Nobel Prize winner in physics.
31
Seems to me that the religious (a good number of them) were part of the religious left. Ever hear of Jimmy Carter? Ever hear of Liberation Theology? How about the Berrigan's? Ever heard of Jesus? He was a left-wing communist radical according to my reading of the Gospels.
We need the religious.
We need the right - even if I often disagree with them.
But we don't need the two together anymore than we need a state religion.
We need the religious.
We need the right - even if I often disagree with them.
But we don't need the two together anymore than we need a state religion.
19
Regardless of Mr Douthat's attempt at damage control, the religious right's full, wholehearted embrace of Donald Trump once and for all rips away the rotten facade of sanctimony behind which this movement has festered and metastasized since the 1970s. In the clear, antiseptic light of the 2016 campaign we see the religious right for what many knew it was all along: hypocritical, bigoted, small-minded and mean-spirited. There's nothing left for them to hide or hide behind with Donald Trump as their chosen leader.
33
Not to nitpick, the following statement by Douthat is simply untrue on the face of it:
"Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy may not be a sufficient reason to hand the Oval Office to a man like Donald Trump..."
Neither Hillary Clinton nor any sane person supports abortion rights "at every stage of pregnancy." Douthat's use of the phrase "at every stage of pregnancy" is nonsensical and typical of anti-choice zealots.
"Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy may not be a sufficient reason to hand the Oval Office to a man like Donald Trump..."
Neither Hillary Clinton nor any sane person supports abortion rights "at every stage of pregnancy." Douthat's use of the phrase "at every stage of pregnancy" is nonsensical and typical of anti-choice zealots.
109
The GOP presidential field is built on one lie after another. Why should this individual be any different?
And what about the lives of men and women set to be ended by legal lethal injections by our government? Why are only some lives, those of the unborn, so important? We don't care enough about the kids born onto this earth without proper food, clothing, or shelter. We don't care about those misguided souls who committed horrible acts and then have been sentenced to die, not to repent and be forgiven by your god. Why is that, all you good Christians? Just why is that?
The religious right sent AIDs relief without condoms: the triumph of doctrine over intelligence. What we need is compassion and tolerance, and for that we would have to look elsewhere.
51
"Religious" people who support Donald Trump are PHONIES.
Donald Trump is an empty, soul-less, money- and sex-worshiping pig.
THAT is what "religious" people who support Donald Trump believe in.
Donald Trump is an empty, soul-less, money- and sex-worshiping pig.
THAT is what "religious" people who support Donald Trump believe in.
32
I would suggest that Mr Douthat has a long and soul-searching discussion with Rev Falwell, Jr. They can discuss the relation of religion and politics in the USA and contrast this with the wishes of the founding fathers, in particular Mr Jefferson.
14
Ross, methinks you are trying to catch the train that left the train station quite some time ago. Too late. All of our thinking and words are quite academic now.
3
If you're human and look up at night, the pull of transcendence is always there. That's why we have religions. We don't need the religious right's version to move forward.
25
As the grandson of a Baptist minister, I know something of the religious right. They deserve no defense, they deserve no voice in politics. They are no different from radical Islamist theologians. Everyone who disagrees with them is fatally flawed and a sinner before God.
Mr. Douthat, your readers deserve better from you. If you are a conservative right-wing Christian, keep your pandering to yourself or your congregation. Readers of the NY Times deserve better than your absurd apologies for bigots.
There is no defense for religious bigots, Islamic or Christian.
Mr. Douthat, your readers deserve better from you. If you are a conservative right-wing Christian, keep your pandering to yourself or your congregation. Readers of the NY Times deserve better than your absurd apologies for bigots.
There is no defense for religious bigots, Islamic or Christian.
128
I see. So it's fine to drive the entire country (perhaps even the planet) off a cliff because you imagine everyone is rushing out to terminate a pregnancy. Have I got that about right?
Do you even read what you write?
No one is telling anyone they must have an abortion. And further the liberals are suggesting everyone should have access to birth control. Craziness I know. Much more sane to try to close up the barn after the horse has run off.
I am beyond exhausted with the primitive notions of religion. The idea you espouse: that it's okay to vote for a despicable man like Trump rather than allow birth control and people who are non-fundamentalist to make their own reproductive choices just proves how loony this faction really is. Please, move to a place where theology is the law of the land. In this country, founded on the separation of church and state, we are out of patience and out of time.
And count yourself lucky that liberals aren't trying to stomp out religion like your ilk is trying to stomp out human rights for everyone that isn't a small collection of cells.
Do you even read what you write?
No one is telling anyone they must have an abortion. And further the liberals are suggesting everyone should have access to birth control. Craziness I know. Much more sane to try to close up the barn after the horse has run off.
I am beyond exhausted with the primitive notions of religion. The idea you espouse: that it's okay to vote for a despicable man like Trump rather than allow birth control and people who are non-fundamentalist to make their own reproductive choices just proves how loony this faction really is. Please, move to a place where theology is the law of the land. In this country, founded on the separation of church and state, we are out of patience and out of time.
And count yourself lucky that liberals aren't trying to stomp out religion like your ilk is trying to stomp out human rights for everyone that isn't a small collection of cells.
134
What does tax policy have to do with Christianity? As for abortion, isn't it strange that the cure for abortion is a man who forces himself upon women? We could make great strides toward eliminating abortion if our society was more merciful: if we had affordable healthcare, paid extended family leave, equal educational opportunities, affordable housing, and jobs that paid a living wage. We need to make it easier for parents to take care of their children after they are born. Look at the shenanigans surrounding funding for Zika. It's hypocritical to protect the fetus and damn the child.
95
Oh, properly this is a pallid defense indeed.
The founders of our country granted everyone the right to practice their religion as they chose. The founders prohibited the establishment of any national religion. Why? So that we don't have to have these never ending discussions about whatever it is that you happen to believe. Go ahead and believe whatever you want--but (and this is the critical thing) leave me alone.
The state will NEVER make you have an abortion if you don't want one (unlike say, in China.) Conversely, the state may not prevent me from having one if I so choose. The Supreme Court has ruled on this.
The religious right continually seeks to inject THEIR religious beliefs into the public sphere. They are entitled to say whatever they want of course (First Amendment) but that's about it.
Our founders guaranteed our right to live our lives as we wish. The religious right picks and chooses which moral themes they wish to follow pretty speciously--this year Trump seems to be pretty OK by them for whatever reason despite your exculpatory sophistry.
I'll choose to follow my own and I have no need to explain it to you or convince you that I am right. And that is just the way our founders meant it to be.
The founders of our country granted everyone the right to practice their religion as they chose. The founders prohibited the establishment of any national religion. Why? So that we don't have to have these never ending discussions about whatever it is that you happen to believe. Go ahead and believe whatever you want--but (and this is the critical thing) leave me alone.
The state will NEVER make you have an abortion if you don't want one (unlike say, in China.) Conversely, the state may not prevent me from having one if I so choose. The Supreme Court has ruled on this.
The religious right continually seeks to inject THEIR religious beliefs into the public sphere. They are entitled to say whatever they want of course (First Amendment) but that's about it.
Our founders guaranteed our right to live our lives as we wish. The religious right picks and chooses which moral themes they wish to follow pretty speciously--this year Trump seems to be pretty OK by them for whatever reason despite your exculpatory sophistry.
I'll choose to follow my own and I have no need to explain it to you or convince you that I am right. And that is just the way our founders meant it to be.
103
Anglo-Protestant notions of justification by faith (and others) are cornerstone of American ideas about freedom and democracy, including separation of church and state. The Anglo-Protestant world view has drawn on other religious traditions and has strongly influenced them, at least this country. So this country needs Christianity and I say that as someone who is not a Christian. Whether it needs a "religious right" is another question. What exactly is the "religious right" other than "the religious right of Carson and Falwell Jr.? Douthat does not say.
9
I'm sorry but this is utter nonsense.
This is Mr. Douthat's key point.
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
Yes, dark indeed.
His point is that religion at least constrains the right somewhat. Without it they would be so much worse.
It is a sad conclusion but one worth thinking about.
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
Yes, dark indeed.
His point is that religion at least constrains the right somewhat. Without it they would be so much worse.
It is a sad conclusion but one worth thinking about.
35
If I could have asked a question at the debate the other night, it would have been this: What do you think of the Sermon on the Mount? Is there a particular part of it that really speaks to you? If we are going to get involved as people of faith, let's get to the heart of the matter.
162
I wouldn't hold my breath expecting Trump to tell me anything substantive about the Sermon on the Mount. He'd try to bluff his way through like he did when he referred to Second Corinthians as Corinthians 2, as if it was Jaws 2.
Ross has it almost right this time. There is no transcendence for these reactionaries. But tribalism, cruelty and darkness? In abundance.
9
Interesting perspectives herein, but when I read Ross's phrase, "some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt," I thought of news stories that the strict laws against gays in Uganda were an outgrowth of the missionary zeal of American Christian conservatives. That's just one example of christian conservatism that alarms me.
18
Oh, who would have ever thought Lady Luck would appear in the vulgar disguise of Donald J. Trump but that seems to be the case. Trump is not only bringing down the Grand Old Party but Fox News & Paul Ryan & now, the religious right. Yahoo. Let sanity once again prevail.
12
You can follow Christ or you can follow Trump.
One will lead you on a path to life everlasting.
Please, be honest with yourself, you know where the path will end if you follow Trump.
One will lead you on a path to life everlasting.
Please, be honest with yourself, you know where the path will end if you follow Trump.
4
Trump's faults are pretty standard stuff actually, exaggerated for political reasons in many media outlets, and he could be a decent supporter of religious values. There is no alternative.
The religious right will support The Devil himself if he promises to end abortion.
15
I love reading Ross Douthat. He always makes me think.
My first reaction to this essay is to think about the separation of church and state and how that resounds back to rendering onto Caesar what is Caesar's. And how that, in turn, connects to our long fought civil rights movement. Beginning in the 1950s one of the central elements of the movement was equal rights in commerce. Freedom to choose where you eat, sleep, sit and so forth. One of the most valuable features of our constitution is the separation between church and state. Commerce falls into the realm of the State just as commerce was rendered unto Caesar. That's why Christ threw the money changers out of the Temple. Where I eat, buy a home, sit on a plane or shop for anything offered for sale is a right. You may demand that I wear certain attire, not speak on my cell phone or what not, but essentially I am free to purchase as I will.
The religious right is now attempting to pull commerce back into the realm of God, just as some on the religious right tried to do during the early civil rights period. It's doomed to failure because they are simply wrong. The battle will rage and that rage will be part of our future but just as we have accepted, grudgingly, that a family, perhaps, of black and white parents favoring Islam and Judaism can buy any home on the block, we will come to accept that homosexuals can do likewise.
Thanks Mr. Douthat. You can't believe the number of ways I misspell your name.
My first reaction to this essay is to think about the separation of church and state and how that resounds back to rendering onto Caesar what is Caesar's. And how that, in turn, connects to our long fought civil rights movement. Beginning in the 1950s one of the central elements of the movement was equal rights in commerce. Freedom to choose where you eat, sleep, sit and so forth. One of the most valuable features of our constitution is the separation between church and state. Commerce falls into the realm of the State just as commerce was rendered unto Caesar. That's why Christ threw the money changers out of the Temple. Where I eat, buy a home, sit on a plane or shop for anything offered for sale is a right. You may demand that I wear certain attire, not speak on my cell phone or what not, but essentially I am free to purchase as I will.
The religious right is now attempting to pull commerce back into the realm of God, just as some on the religious right tried to do during the early civil rights period. It's doomed to failure because they are simply wrong. The battle will rage and that rage will be part of our future but just as we have accepted, grudgingly, that a family, perhaps, of black and white parents favoring Islam and Judaism can buy any home on the block, we will come to accept that homosexuals can do likewise.
Thanks Mr. Douthat. You can't believe the number of ways I misspell your name.
7
As a native of Iowa, I'm disgusted with the religious right, who use their first-in-the-nation status to glorify "leaders" like Ted Cruz.
My problem is not their beliefs but the fact that they want to foist those beliefs on the REST of us.
Trump is the candidate they richly deserve.
My problem is not their beliefs but the fact that they want to foist those beliefs on the REST of us.
Trump is the candidate they richly deserve.
21
I agree!! They have a right to their beliefs. The don't have the right to force me to go along or to prevent me from exercising my Constititutional right to a safe abortion. The so called Christians love the fetus and have no regard for the child. How about protecting actual human beings over a glob of cells?
5
How in the world would a Clinton presidency ask right-wing Christians "to cooperate . . with . . . their own legal-cultural isolation"? Because it asks them to tolerate a democratic society that doesn't implement their policies? That's not "legal-cultural isolation." That's failing to convince a sufficient number of their fellow citizens of the wisdom of their policy preferences. Get over it; the United States is no longer a white, conservative Christian nation; it's a democracy devoted to the rule of law and the principles of its Constitution.
19
When Douthat gets to abortion, he tells us about himself and the religious right. The essence of that is to believe they have the right to force everyone to accept their code of conduct. That's positively medieval. No thanks. If you can't convince others to accept your religion, keep it out of our laws.
56
List the "serious" religious thinkers of the evangelical right who forcefully and in public denounced the phony birther meme? Why didn't they criticize D'Souza's asinine film? The point of these assaults on Obama's presidency was to question and thus limit his legitimacy. Nearly every black American knows what their intent was. Why didn't your "serious" thinkers know that? You, as well as they, should read Weber's classic, "Politics as a Vocation" in which he explains the relationship between ends and means in a political context. The willingness of the "serious" to join in the de-legtimization of Obama was demonstrated their by their desire to use any means, however foul, to destroy his presidency. That these actions would prepare the way for Trump only demonstrates their rather limited grasp of their so-called religious calling, because they were unable to separate their religious from their political convictions. It is too late for you to salvage their moral failure, or your own complicity in this political and moral crime.
39
They really did blow it by trying to nullify "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...", Ross.
What is religion worth if people can't even adhere to the oaths they swear by it?
What is religion worth if people can't even adhere to the oaths they swear by it?
7
"For the last two weeks we’ve watched various paladins of traditional values twist and squirm as they try to square their Christian conservatism with Donald Trump’s sexual attitudes and conduct. They sought a remoralized politics, a less licentious culture, and now they’re making lesser-of-two-evil arguments to protect a pagan demagogue from the consequences of his own unbridled lust."
Let's keep this simple. It is called rank hypocrisy.
Let's keep this simple. It is called rank hypocrisy.
48
Stop calling yourself "pro-life" while favoring capital punishment and failing to oppose wars of adventurism. Your Saint John Paul II says that to do that is hypocritical, Father Doubt That.
43
Where is Sinclair Lewis when you need him ?
16
Douthout is correct---it is a weak defense.
The "religious right" wasn't anywhere when women and girls had to get back alley abortions. Abortion isn't really the issue--it is only a cover for the religious right's basic insecurities which liberals, who don't fear the wrath of God after they die, represent.
The world is changing. The idea of God's love seems to have staying power. However, the religious right hasn't hooked its wagon to that fundamental idea. Instead, they have hooked it to the fear of a world changing where, for example, God can endorse a gay couple being married. Jesus would be pleased--but they condemn them to hell.
For people wh believe they are following the teachings of Jesus, they have missed them completely. And everybody but them knows it.
The "religious right" wasn't anywhere when women and girls had to get back alley abortions. Abortion isn't really the issue--it is only a cover for the religious right's basic insecurities which liberals, who don't fear the wrath of God after they die, represent.
The world is changing. The idea of God's love seems to have staying power. However, the religious right hasn't hooked its wagon to that fundamental idea. Instead, they have hooked it to the fear of a world changing where, for example, God can endorse a gay couple being married. Jesus would be pleased--but they condemn them to hell.
For people wh believe they are following the teachings of Jesus, they have missed them completely. And everybody but them knows it.
44
Yeah all the other candidates were crazy too. Sorry just Christian conservatives aren't off the hook just because they wanted someone beside Trump.
25
If I recall Trump did pretty well among the evangelicals during the primaries to the surprise of many pundits so I'm not buying that "they didn't really want Trump" line.
I do not understand why the Religious Right states that Ms. Clinton supports abortion at any stage of a pregnancy. Most abortions occur in the first trimester, when the fetus is the size of a kidney bean. Late term abortions happen due to fetal incompatibility with life or health of the mother. And since they never actually propose policies which reduce the abortion rate, such as contraception, higher minimum wages, paid family leave, they cannot claim to be against abortion.
54
Nor does this Religious Right (RR) endorse the support of children once they are born; I have serious problems with this worldview, because it suggests that the RR is not pro-life but pro-birth. And if this idea is followed to its logical conclusion, we learn that RR is actually anti-sex outside of one-man-one-woman marriage.
I'm quite sure that RR lost Jesus before pro-birth.
I'm quite sure that RR lost Jesus before pro-birth.
Ross, When do you think Christians will realize that Christ was not a conservative? You seem to think that conservatism becomes hollow when Christian values depart. But actually, something like the reverse is true: Christianity loses it's soul when it gets in bed with conservatism.
There is nothing of the modern Republican agenda that Jesus would have embraced, or even understood. He told everybody to love one another, be tolerant of diversity, help the poor, and pay your taxes. It's a shame that the public expression of these values now exist only in the Democratic party. Christians -- and all the rest of us -- should find this sad and intolerable.
There is nothing of the modern Republican agenda that Jesus would have embraced, or even understood. He told everybody to love one another, be tolerant of diversity, help the poor, and pay your taxes. It's a shame that the public expression of these values now exist only in the Democratic party. Christians -- and all the rest of us -- should find this sad and intolerable.
87
Ross, I think it's time religious conservatives imagined themselves in other people's shoes; gay and transgendered people, unmarried pregnant women, married pregnant women without the means to support another child, any women in need of the health services Planned Parenthood provides. For too long, it's been gospel among these folks that the federal government pays for abortion when it never has. For too lond, the denial of science, evolution and global warming, has handicapped American students. Hillary Clinton will not isolate this group, they left the mainstream long ago. Good riddance.
57
Strange, Ross; there is not a word in your column about social justice,such as distributive justice. Perhaps that is why Hillary Clinton is drawing more Catholics. Economic justice including a living wage has been a core issue for many of us Cradle Catholics for generations. For some reason, that vital issue is missing from your equation. Here's a hint: Go read up on Rerum Novarum and Monsignor John A. Ryan's "A Living Wage."
38
If Clinton becomes our president, as a Christian, I do fear the the liberal left will "clamp down on religious dissent from social liberalism's orthodoxies". Any attempt to spread the teachings of Jesus Christ outside of our church buildings could eventually become illegal in the pursuit of so called tolerance and diversity. The last thing Jesus said to his followers in the gospel of Matthew was ...." Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."... As Christians we were not given this Great Commission just for social reasons. We are talking about eternal consequences for those who do not hear and believe.
2
What does clamping down look like? Possibly using courts to give gay couples marriage certificates or allowing transgendered children to dress like the sex they believe themselves to be? Maybe allowing unfettered abortions instead of vaginal probes, ultrasounds and funerals for globs of cells.
5
What is it about the separation of church and state that you and the Religious Right do not understand? Seriously, I'd like someone to answer that question. It is always swept under the rug and/or totally ignored in any comment I have ever seen.
No one is going to make spreading the word of Jesus Christ outside of churches illegal. Those of us who respect the Constitution firmly believe in freedom of religion. Those of us who respect the Constitution firmly believe that neither you nor I can impose our religious beliefs on the other. Those of us who respect the Constitution accept that the government of the United States is separate from any church or theology.
How do you continue to justify ignoring this?
No one is going to make spreading the word of Jesus Christ outside of churches illegal. Those of us who respect the Constitution firmly believe in freedom of religion. Those of us who respect the Constitution firmly believe that neither you nor I can impose our religious beliefs on the other. Those of us who respect the Constitution accept that the government of the United States is separate from any church or theology.
How do you continue to justify ignoring this?
Aaron, you are delusional in the most extreme corner of your fearful world. HRC, as do us folks on the progressive side, believes that you should be able to shout from the highest mountain top that you are of a particular religious sect, whether Christian, Muslim, Bhuddists, etc. You just cannot use public funds, buildings or government institutions to advance your ideology. That includes the notion of replacing school science texts with the latest version of creationism. You will still have a voice even though I strongly disagree with your positions.
Abortion has been practiced universally by human beings since time began. Before the advent of modern medical practices its use was largely under the control of women. Even animals practice abortion, when hostile environmental circumstances dictate. To equate religion with anti-abortion is insanity.
15
What does it say about the American right, when the only thing making them respectable was Christianity? I do not believe that is what you meant, but this column says a lot of bad things about conservatives, and nothing all that good about Christianity.
Liberals do not require Christianity to behave in a decent way. What does that say about conservatives?
Liberals do not require Christianity to behave in a decent way. What does that say about conservatives?
20
Trump is the "worst of the worst," but he's not the only unseemly character the religious right been proudly supporting . They've lined up behind many who, while waving the Bible, have stood for the opposite of what they supposedly believe. Preachers like Franklin Graham and Tony Perkins, and politicians like Cruz, Rubio, McCrory, Huckabee, and Carson have preached stunning intolerance for those not like them. And they've endorse programs that harm the poor, sick, and old. It's really a tragedy that America's "religious right" has comes to stand for prejudice and not caring.
47
I value Christianity for its role in culture, philosophy, charity, and much else. Yes, there is the violence & intolerance, but there is NO secular or religious institution or ideology, from science to Bhuddism, whose practitioners don't have some blood on their hands and some hypocrisy in their hearts.
But the American Christian Right of the last 30 years have done absolutely nothing but exploit Christianity and manipulate Christians in the pursuit of political and economic power. Just the other day I heard the smarmy Ralph Reed saying he wouldn't hesitate to let his young daughters work side by side with Donald Trump. He might as well have been snickering along with Trump. The Christian care about nothing but money & power. They condemn sex & women's autonomy while embracing wars of aggression, torture, the death penalty, and persecuting the poor & marginalized. They have responded to every attempt at dialogue & debate with demonization, lies and fund-raising campaigns. The fact that they are embracing a serial liar who is prone to racist rants, who brags about sexually assaulting women and about his own greed, should surprise no one.
Mr. Douthat's admittedly tepid defense of these people could only have been written by someone so wrapped up in political strategy that they have forgotten what religion is. It is a precise reflection of the pseudo-religious political culture that the "Christian right" have created.
But the American Christian Right of the last 30 years have done absolutely nothing but exploit Christianity and manipulate Christians in the pursuit of political and economic power. Just the other day I heard the smarmy Ralph Reed saying he wouldn't hesitate to let his young daughters work side by side with Donald Trump. He might as well have been snickering along with Trump. The Christian care about nothing but money & power. They condemn sex & women's autonomy while embracing wars of aggression, torture, the death penalty, and persecuting the poor & marginalized. They have responded to every attempt at dialogue & debate with demonization, lies and fund-raising campaigns. The fact that they are embracing a serial liar who is prone to racist rants, who brags about sexually assaulting women and about his own greed, should surprise no one.
Mr. Douthat's admittedly tepid defense of these people could only have been written by someone so wrapped up in political strategy that they have forgotten what religion is. It is a precise reflection of the pseudo-religious political culture that the "Christian right" have created.
40
Indefensible Ross. Time to get a new gig...
33
"And for those liberals today, the religious right’s crisis tastes like victory and vindication both"
I am a bleeding heart liberal on just about every social issues, LGBT, gay marriage. I support a woman's right to choose and strong gun controls. So I guess I qualify as a "liberal".
But I'm catholic and go to church every Sunday. So please Mr. Douthat don't catalog liberals a not religious. Many of us are very liberal and very religious.
I am a bleeding heart liberal on just about every social issues, LGBT, gay marriage. I support a woman's right to choose and strong gun controls. So I guess I qualify as a "liberal".
But I'm catholic and go to church every Sunday. So please Mr. Douthat don't catalog liberals a not religious. Many of us are very liberal and very religious.
67
The best thing the religious right could do is respect the founding clause of the Constitution -separation of church and state. All of our religions are important to each and every one of us even if we are not part of the religious right but just simple worshipers. Think about the fact that the religious right could use this as a turning point by teach respect and tolerance of other beliefs, that good works by religious leaders for the American community might change the heart of America and political issues can be discussed with respect and acceptance of other peoples' opinions without violence. Justifying the unreasonable fear of an administration of HRC as President is not only not Christian but not right.
16
Poor conservative Christians...criminalizing miscarriages and supporting state sponsored raped of pregnant women and supporting the destruction of the middle class. They are so put upon. They're frightened.
I don't know about Hillary but I think it's time all religious people have to support their own churches because I sick of doing it. We need to end religious tax exemptions and each and ever religious privlege and exemption there is. No religious institutes or entity should be allowed to benefit from my tax dollars. If I want to support a religious institution that should be my choice.
I don't know about Hillary but I think it's time all religious people have to support their own churches because I sick of doing it. We need to end religious tax exemptions and each and ever religious privlege and exemption there is. No religious institutes or entity should be allowed to benefit from my tax dollars. If I want to support a religious institution that should be my choice.
38
Let's forget for a minute about the validity of the religious right and their role in politics moving forward. Right now, I would honestly like to know one thing - why on earth these people believe he's going to keep any promise he may make to them or follow through on any policies he swears he's going to pursue on their behalf. He changes his policy positions depending on whatever he thinks the crowd wants to hear and he lies and fabricates about 85% of everything he says. Personally I would go look out the window if he told me the sun was shining. He is throwing everyone under the bus in this "campaign" and I'm guessing he's telling them exactly what they want to hear to get himself elected. If, gods forbid, he lands in the Oval Office, I imagine they are going to be quickly and greatly disappointed. Donald Trump serves only himself and the Trump Bus is just going to roll right over the religious right, same as it does everybody else.
27
"And for those liberals today, the religious right’s crisis tastes like victory and vindication both:"
No, Mr. Douthat. And again no. It does not taste like either victory or vindication.
All honest liberals have ever wanted is to be free to practice their religions, or to practice no religions. All honest liberals have ever wanted is for the religious right to leave them alone.
All honest liberals have ever wanted is for you and your religious right brethren is to go off and practice your religion, or whatever you think you're practicing, in private, to your hearts' content. Be as science-denying and evolution-denying and climate-change denying and pro-afterlife as you wanna be, on your own time and your own dime. No honest liberal will try to stop any of you from doing so. No honest liberal will try to convert you. No honest liberal wants to even care that much about you, or what you do - with yourselves.
For honest liberals, getting you to leave them alone, getting you to stop freaking out about how they're going to destroy you, which they have no interest in doing - now that would taste like victory.
No, Mr. Douthat. And again no. It does not taste like either victory or vindication.
All honest liberals have ever wanted is to be free to practice their religions, or to practice no religions. All honest liberals have ever wanted is for the religious right to leave them alone.
All honest liberals have ever wanted is for you and your religious right brethren is to go off and practice your religion, or whatever you think you're practicing, in private, to your hearts' content. Be as science-denying and evolution-denying and climate-change denying and pro-afterlife as you wanna be, on your own time and your own dime. No honest liberal will try to stop any of you from doing so. No honest liberal will try to convert you. No honest liberal wants to even care that much about you, or what you do - with yourselves.
For honest liberals, getting you to leave them alone, getting you to stop freaking out about how they're going to destroy you, which they have no interest in doing - now that would taste like victory.
72
A 79, and a long-retired Lutheran pastor, I'd like to recommend an excellent, added piece of Christian theological work, found within the New York Times recent "library resource": Peter Wehner's The Theology of Donald Trumpwas in New York Times, July 5, 2016. Many devout Christians are sidelined, without a Voice, by the chronic discussion by and about "Conservative Right-Wing Christians". An honest "discussion" regarding the Christian Faith deserves, I believe, the kind of input I found in
Peter Wehner's succinct and cogent treatment of this current and crucial
subject.
Peter Wehner's succinct and cogent treatment of this current and crucial
subject.
8
To paraphrase an old proverb "What good for man to win the Supreme Court and lose ye soul"?
7
"But given pro-life premises, it is a far more compelling reason than the candidates’s differences on tax policy or education or family leave."
This argument might make sense if Christian conservatives could reasonably expect Trump the president to govern as Trump the candidate. But this is wishful thinking of the highest order. Trump would feel no obligation whatsoever to hew to positions that he has taken recently. He could just as easily wake up one morning and decide that abortion on demand was just the ticket. (He has taken that position before.) Christians supporting Trump are like the frog giving the scorpion a ride across the river, thinking they had a deal.
This argument might make sense if Christian conservatives could reasonably expect Trump the president to govern as Trump the candidate. But this is wishful thinking of the highest order. Trump would feel no obligation whatsoever to hew to positions that he has taken recently. He could just as easily wake up one morning and decide that abortion on demand was just the ticket. (He has taken that position before.) Christians supporting Trump are like the frog giving the scorpion a ride across the river, thinking they had a deal.
10
Mike Pence embodies the moral bankruptcy of the religious right.
Pence tried to pretend that Trump represented a redemption story, saying that it took a big man to admit he was wrong. In truth, Trump begrudgingly uttered a shallow apology for his "grab them" recording, mostly dismissing the deep violations as just words, and now mocking the stream of accusers.
Pence made his signature issue a crusade against imaginary predators in the bathroom, while minimizing the gravity of his running mate's predation.
Pence pretends that marriage equality is an affront to heterosexual marriage when, in truth, Trump's lecherousness is the threat to relationships.
Pence pretended that Trump values "the sanctity of life" when, in truth, he dehumanizes entire groups of people breezily and has repeatedly called for violence on his opponent.
Mike Pence is supposed to represent the religious right, and he shows us how hollow it is.
Pence tried to pretend that Trump represented a redemption story, saying that it took a big man to admit he was wrong. In truth, Trump begrudgingly uttered a shallow apology for his "grab them" recording, mostly dismissing the deep violations as just words, and now mocking the stream of accusers.
Pence made his signature issue a crusade against imaginary predators in the bathroom, while minimizing the gravity of his running mate's predation.
Pence pretends that marriage equality is an affront to heterosexual marriage when, in truth, Trump's lecherousness is the threat to relationships.
Pence pretended that Trump values "the sanctity of life" when, in truth, he dehumanizes entire groups of people breezily and has repeatedly called for violence on his opponent.
Mike Pence is supposed to represent the religious right, and he shows us how hollow it is.
35
The final sentence is quite ironic:
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
The pull of transcendence and the partisanship of the religious right is precisely the problem and has in large part led us to the tribalism, cruelty, and profound darkness exemplified by the Trump candidacy. Perhaps we should avoid any further commitments to superstition and rather return to a proper separation of church and state. Your article provides explanatory material but hardly a defensible position for the role of religion in politics.
Let's return to building this country on the humanistic Enlightenment principles utilized by the framers of the constitution for the good of all people whether religious or irreligious.
"But some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
The pull of transcendence and the partisanship of the religious right is precisely the problem and has in large part led us to the tribalism, cruelty, and profound darkness exemplified by the Trump candidacy. Perhaps we should avoid any further commitments to superstition and rather return to a proper separation of church and state. Your article provides explanatory material but hardly a defensible position for the role of religion in politics.
Let's return to building this country on the humanistic Enlightenment principles utilized by the framers of the constitution for the good of all people whether religious or irreligious.
18
Okay, let me get this straight, the Religious Right would prefer an amoral man who assaults women and brags about it because he would be more inclined to strip women of their right to choose, contraception and walk back their "legal-cultural isolation", ( i.e. the right to discriminate against LGBT persons).
Thanks for clearing that up for me Mr, Douthat
Thanks for clearing that up for me Mr, Douthat
30
Your eminence, "the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed." Well spoken, Mephistopheles. Allow me to rebut the Four-Point Theses that you've chiseled upon Donald Trump's headstone, already fashioned and awaiting the final planting.
1. "First, serious religious conservatives didn’t want Trump." Au contraire, sir. His opening to them was "build that wall!" When did the Religious Right not oppose the dreaded "browning of America," the godless horde crossing the Rio Grande? Racism was the first acceptable plank to them.
2. "Second, religious conservatives have stronger reasons than other right-wing constituencies to fear a Clinton presidency." Oh great one, the Right never cared a jot for those precious ones born into poverty, substance addiction, social despair. The Right want those fetuses to come to term to, in time, to validate checkpoints in their culture wars.
3. "Third, religious conservatives are as divided as any other conservative faction over Trump." Wrong again. When did they ever speak out against his birtherism five years ago? They bought in on the Kenyan-Socialist-America-hating Muslim meme.
4. "America needs a religious right." No, sir; it does not. America needs a Congress to guard against the corrosive encroachment upon civilization and freedom by religious extremists, and that's all your "evangelical Christians" are: haters, deniers, accusers, stake-diggers and fascists.
Mr. Douthat, run all this by someone who's stupid.
1. "First, serious religious conservatives didn’t want Trump." Au contraire, sir. His opening to them was "build that wall!" When did the Religious Right not oppose the dreaded "browning of America," the godless horde crossing the Rio Grande? Racism was the first acceptable plank to them.
2. "Second, religious conservatives have stronger reasons than other right-wing constituencies to fear a Clinton presidency." Oh great one, the Right never cared a jot for those precious ones born into poverty, substance addiction, social despair. The Right want those fetuses to come to term to, in time, to validate checkpoints in their culture wars.
3. "Third, religious conservatives are as divided as any other conservative faction over Trump." Wrong again. When did they ever speak out against his birtherism five years ago? They bought in on the Kenyan-Socialist-America-hating Muslim meme.
4. "America needs a religious right." No, sir; it does not. America needs a Congress to guard against the corrosive encroachment upon civilization and freedom by religious extremists, and that's all your "evangelical Christians" are: haters, deniers, accusers, stake-diggers and fascists.
Mr. Douthat, run all this by someone who's stupid.
34
Presumably the religious right so needed by our country would exclude the thugs who felt it their duty to export their murderous homophobiic ideology to East Africa and other vulnerable countries. This cohort of lunatics hasn't gone anywhere even as the country has mostly and peacefully moved on. Perhaps these past few months of the Trump experience has been a bracing enough experience to see how far we have advanced.
6
When you take your orders from an invisible entity whose words are transcribed by man than you are very susceptible to other cons. Mr. Trump is a very good con man, Flim Flam artist (well more of a hack). He has run a con on you all Ross, well maybe Ross knows he is a con man, but maybe Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell could handle Mr. Trump. You know control him.
Oh and by the way, I know of no one gloating. It is a sad day in American when the likes of Mr. Trump is nominated by a major political party as their nominee for President of the United States of America.
Oh and by the way, I know of no one gloating. It is a sad day in American when the likes of Mr. Trump is nominated by a major political party as their nominee for President of the United States of America.
15
Oh, please. America does NOT need a religious right. They're what's wrong with America. We've let the religious right dictate far too much legislature and shove their noses and vaginal ultrasound wands where they don't belong. You are certainly entitled to your beliefs no matter how wackadoodle they may be. They problem that I have, and millions of other Americans have, is when you start shoving those beliefs down our throats. The absolute hypocrisy and sick misogyny of the religious is what is most stunning. They are "pro-life" but only as far as fetuses are concerned, they're all for voting for politicians that love to start wars that kill innocent men, women and children (I'm sure fetuses die too!), they malign gay people and call them abominations, human beings are abominations! I'm sure Jesus would approve. I'm sick to death of the religious in this country. Hitchens was right when he said "religion ruins everything". It truly does.
I'm voting for Hillary Clinton for many reasons but one of them is that she is pro-choice. The science-denying, self righteous people like yourself can vote for the other candidate whose name I won't even type, he's so sickeningly repulsive. And he's all yours Ross, he's all yours.
I'm voting for Hillary Clinton for many reasons but one of them is that she is pro-choice. The science-denying, self righteous people like yourself can vote for the other candidate whose name I won't even type, he's so sickeningly repulsive. And he's all yours Ross, he's all yours.
34
What bothers many Americans about members of the Religious Right has very little to do with the faith that they hold or the loud public manner with which they espouse it, but in the hypocrisy of their conduct. If you asked most members of a Trump rally about their religious beliefs, they would almost certainly, after asserting their Christian pedigree, spout platitudes about regaining "a godly country" and bringing Christ back into the arena of public debate. But if you ask them as a follow-up what Christ's message has to do with a nine year old boy parading about, his mother's arm draped over his shoulder, wearing a "lock the bitch up" tee shirt ( and that is the least egregious display I can think of), they might very well make the excuse that Hillary is the devil. I would forgive the for having devolved into simple medievalism, but that insults the people of the Middle Ages! who at least managed to construct Chartes. No, this is pure American right wing religious thuggery, the kind that John C. Calhoun excused, waving a bible in his hand. We all know how that turned out.
26
Such a waste of editorial space that Douthat preaches to us about the necessity of religion in politics. The premise is not only a violation of the US Constitution, but more importantly an insult to any thinking person who purchases this newspaper expecting to read something of vital importance.
27
Believe it or not, but abortion is not the only concern for religion. Forcing someone's religious views on every woman in the country, and specifically onto her healthcare and body is just sick. But then the religious right supports Trump, sexual predator extraordinaire, who has not hesitation forcing himself on any woman or girl in his vicinity.
It is not so much schadenfreude as a revulsion against the absolute hypocrisy of the so-called "Christians". They have no hesitation supporting a candidate who had many affairs, was unfaithful to his wives, was married multiple times, had children in and out of wedlock with various women, treated his workers badly, abused women, cheated everyone around him, didn't pay his taxes for many years, and is morally repugnant on many levels.
Yet Trump is the "religious" right's candidate? When he shouts (and leads his followers) to shout to "lock her up" meaning his political opponent who is not guilty of any crime according to the top law enforcement agency in the country. He encourages his supporters to violent acts (2nd Amendment, disarm his opponent's bodyguard, beat up protesters), and once and still advocated on billboards the legal lynching of young black men who turned out to be completely innocent (the Central Park rapist).
Exactly what religion is it that these people lead anyway? The Hitler Church of Bigots? The Mussolini Church of Fascists? The White Supremacists KKK Church? Ugly, ugly immoral people.
It is not so much schadenfreude as a revulsion against the absolute hypocrisy of the so-called "Christians". They have no hesitation supporting a candidate who had many affairs, was unfaithful to his wives, was married multiple times, had children in and out of wedlock with various women, treated his workers badly, abused women, cheated everyone around him, didn't pay his taxes for many years, and is morally repugnant on many levels.
Yet Trump is the "religious" right's candidate? When he shouts (and leads his followers) to shout to "lock her up" meaning his political opponent who is not guilty of any crime according to the top law enforcement agency in the country. He encourages his supporters to violent acts (2nd Amendment, disarm his opponent's bodyguard, beat up protesters), and once and still advocated on billboards the legal lynching of young black men who turned out to be completely innocent (the Central Park rapist).
Exactly what religion is it that these people lead anyway? The Hitler Church of Bigots? The Mussolini Church of Fascists? The White Supremacists KKK Church? Ugly, ugly immoral people.
36
Actually Trump has revealed what you get when conservatism has leached the Christ out of the Christianity of the religious right.
18
~~~~
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Steven Weinberg
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Steven Weinberg
18
"serious religious conservatives didn’t want Trump."
This statement is irrelevant; the Christian conservatives I know all intend to vote for Trump because "there's only one Republican candidate, so that's what I've got to do." It doesn't matter where they began...what matters is where they've arrived, and they are in the wrong place.
"Asking Christian conservatives to accept a Clinton presidency is asking them to cooperate not only with pro-abortion policy-making, but also their own legal-cultural isolation."
Accepting a Presidency whose outcome you may not agree with is what we do in America...you run a campaign, but in the end the President is the President. To question Christian conservatives' civic requirement to "cooperate" is putting their religion (with the strong implication that it is the only "right" religion) above the U.S. Constitution...which provides explicitly for separation of church and state, and only works through cooperation.
"religious conservatives are as divided as any other conservative faction over Trump."
I don't see this...all I see are conservatives saying nothing...the gaping silence is speaking volumes. If they really are "divided" they should be speaking out.
"America needs a religious right."
Maybe from a spiritual point of view, but if you study the words of this nation's founders, they were very wary of mixing religion with politics, and many specifically pointed out the dangers posed specifically by Christianity.
This statement is irrelevant; the Christian conservatives I know all intend to vote for Trump because "there's only one Republican candidate, so that's what I've got to do." It doesn't matter where they began...what matters is where they've arrived, and they are in the wrong place.
"Asking Christian conservatives to accept a Clinton presidency is asking them to cooperate not only with pro-abortion policy-making, but also their own legal-cultural isolation."
Accepting a Presidency whose outcome you may not agree with is what we do in America...you run a campaign, but in the end the President is the President. To question Christian conservatives' civic requirement to "cooperate" is putting their religion (with the strong implication that it is the only "right" religion) above the U.S. Constitution...which provides explicitly for separation of church and state, and only works through cooperation.
"religious conservatives are as divided as any other conservative faction over Trump."
I don't see this...all I see are conservatives saying nothing...the gaping silence is speaking volumes. If they really are "divided" they should be speaking out.
"America needs a religious right."
Maybe from a spiritual point of view, but if you study the words of this nation's founders, they were very wary of mixing religion with politics, and many specifically pointed out the dangers posed specifically by Christianity.
20
Ross, there is one thing you have failed to explain. Why does religious involvement in politics have to be a thing of the right? You ignore the fact that religion in general and Christianity in particular has had a profound effect on the priorities and methods of the left as well. Or have you never heard of things like the Chistian Social Movement or even "liberation theology"?
12
As a liberal I don't believe the "theocrats are finally cracking up", I just think they are being terribly hypocritical in this election. Those on the Christian right whom I know personally, and are voting for Trump are doing so not only because of the nomination of a Supreme Court Justice, but also because many are misogynists as well. Many really do not believe women are equal to men. For many on the Christian right the election isn't just about abortion, but what it has always been about for them - the paternalistic control of women. When Trump tweeted that the 19th amendment should be repealed, his supporters which include many evangelical Christians were more than enthusiastic.
In this country we are guaranteed the right to worship in whatever way we choose, or not to worship at all. We are also guaranteed freedom from religion interfering in government. That line has been crossed far too often for comfort. We are not a Christian nation, we are a nation period. It is what our wise forefathers had in mind when they founded our country.
The right wing Christians would throw the country and the world under the bus to impose their theocratic views on others. You have asked that we put ourselves in their shoes concerning abortion. Put yourself in the shoes of an 11 years old who has been raped and is pregnant, or woman who will die if she does not receive an abortion. Put yourself in the shoes of parents whose baby will suffer from Tay-Sachs if brought to term.
In this country we are guaranteed the right to worship in whatever way we choose, or not to worship at all. We are also guaranteed freedom from religion interfering in government. That line has been crossed far too often for comfort. We are not a Christian nation, we are a nation period. It is what our wise forefathers had in mind when they founded our country.
The right wing Christians would throw the country and the world under the bus to impose their theocratic views on others. You have asked that we put ourselves in their shoes concerning abortion. Put yourself in the shoes of an 11 years old who has been raped and is pregnant, or woman who will die if she does not receive an abortion. Put yourself in the shoes of parents whose baby will suffer from Tay-Sachs if brought to term.
35
Mr. Douthat's reference to Hillary Clinton's position on late-term abortion uses a standard Republican meme that doesn't quite comport with reality and oversimplifies the issue. He states that "Hillary Clinton’s support for legal abortion at every stage of pregnancy may not be a sufficient reason to hand the Oval Office to a man like Donald Trump..."
Here's her much more thoughtful position, dating as far back as her debate with Rick Lazio in the 2000 senate race: "I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected. I’ve met women who faced this heart-wrenching decision toward the end of a pregnancy. Of course it’s a horrible procedure. No one would argue with that. But if your life is at stake, if your health is at stake, if the potential for having any more children is at stake, this must be a woman’s choice."
Here's her much more thoughtful position, dating as far back as her debate with Rick Lazio in the 2000 senate race: "I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected. I’ve met women who faced this heart-wrenching decision toward the end of a pregnancy. Of course it’s a horrible procedure. No one would argue with that. But if your life is at stake, if your health is at stake, if the potential for having any more children is at stake, this must be a woman’s choice."
44
Surely Mr. Douthat is smart enough to realize that laws making abortion illegal only affect who performs them, where they are performed, and the safety of the procedures but NOTHING for the numbers performed. Compare abortion rates in South America and Northern Europe if you don't believe me.
12
I'm not aware that Jesus promoted Vanity, Wrath, Lust, Intellectual Sloth, Racism, Greed, Gluttony, et al. When the self-proclaimed "Evangelical" leadership glosses over the sin(s) of the world, it certainly calls for this leadership to be seriously questioned ... or dismissed."
16
I recently listened to Ralph Reed of the "Faith & Freedom Coalition" basically say that he was a "pragmatist." Essentially if the candidate is a republican, and states that they are anti-abortion, they pass the "religious test."
This goes for about 80% of the so called "serious religious conservatives.' They are just like the majority of the republicans in denouncing the stuff that Trump says and does, but in the end supporting him. Some values eh?
This goes for about 80% of the so called "serious religious conservatives.' They are just like the majority of the republicans in denouncing the stuff that Trump says and does, but in the end supporting him. Some values eh?
25
Who is to say that Jerry Falwell is not a "true religious conservative?" I bet Mr. Falwell does. This "no true Scotsman" gambit played by GOP and Christian apologists is getting old. The fact is that millions of true Christian conservatives are voting for Trump and no amount of rhetorical spin will change it.
As to the future being "tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed," the same is true in the past and religion has been at best neutral, and at times, the major driver. I don't look to Christianity to protect us from anything.
As to the future being "tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed," the same is true in the past and religion has been at best neutral, and at times, the major driver. I don't look to Christianity to protect us from anything.
10
Over the decades, Trump has been a chameleon with regards to his politics and his views on morality, so religious conservatives made a big mistake backing him in the first place. Also, while we have a constitutional separation of church and state, the increasing entanglement of religion in our politics has resulted in the dilemma, which they sort of brought upon themselves, that religious conservatives face today?
But the crux of the matter is that there is a difference between an ethical and a political compromise – which is the conundrum that most religious conservatives find themselves in, as more and more revelations of Trump’s alleged moral deficiencies surface. The choice they make could pit the future of the country vs. the future of conservatism.
But the crux of the matter is that there is a difference between an ethical and a political compromise – which is the conundrum that most religious conservatives find themselves in, as more and more revelations of Trump’s alleged moral deficiencies surface. The choice they make could pit the future of the country vs. the future of conservatism.
4
The religious right committed the cardinal sin of democratic politics when it tried to enlist God on the side of one of the parties in an election contest. Political conflicts in a free society are resolved through a process of compromise. But how can a political party which claims divine endorsement for its platform agree to bargain over issues on which the Almighty has already expressed an authoritative opinion?
The behavior of religious leaders like Falwell and son, Pat Robertson, and Billy Graham, moreover, illustrates how the quest for political influence corrupts ministers. Graham's close association with Richard Nixon and Falwell, Jr's support of Trump tarnished their reputations and exposed the evangelical movement to contempt.
Evangelicals, like any other interest group, can support candidates who promise to advance their agenda. But their effort to inject God into the political process infuriates their opponents and undermines their own cause. Separation of church and state protects not only secular society; it also defends religious institutions against political attacks.
The behavior of religious leaders like Falwell and son, Pat Robertson, and Billy Graham, moreover, illustrates how the quest for political influence corrupts ministers. Graham's close association with Richard Nixon and Falwell, Jr's support of Trump tarnished their reputations and exposed the evangelical movement to contempt.
Evangelicals, like any other interest group, can support candidates who promise to advance their agenda. But their effort to inject God into the political process infuriates their opponents and undermines their own cause. Separation of church and state protects not only secular society; it also defends religious institutions against political attacks.
29
Mr. Douthat writes: “ . . . every abortion is a unique human life snuffed out forever.” Yes, and if the “Christian” conservatives get their way and a President Trump packs the Supreme Court with Scalia clones and Roe v. Wade is overturned, will fewer gestating human lives be snuffed out with the return of back alley abortions?
And with a Trump presidency and a Republican Congress we’ll see further attacks on women’s health care centers and the infant mortality rate in “Christian” conservative states like Alabama will rise from the current 8.7 deaths per 1,000 live births to levels seen only in third world countries.
When will the religious right oppose the death penalty with the same fervor that it favors the return of back alley abortions? When will the religious right stand in opposition to war and in favor of disarmament? When will it fight for the full dignity of all human beings to be what the spirit of creation made them? When will it fight for the rights of living children for equal educational opportunity in safe schools and neighborhoods policed by officers who value all lives?
The long-standing goal of liberals of all religious persuasions has been to make abortion safe, legal, and rare. That’s a far better and more moral strategy than effecting a return to back alley abortions and rising infant mortality rates. Peace.
And with a Trump presidency and a Republican Congress we’ll see further attacks on women’s health care centers and the infant mortality rate in “Christian” conservative states like Alabama will rise from the current 8.7 deaths per 1,000 live births to levels seen only in third world countries.
When will the religious right oppose the death penalty with the same fervor that it favors the return of back alley abortions? When will the religious right stand in opposition to war and in favor of disarmament? When will it fight for the full dignity of all human beings to be what the spirit of creation made them? When will it fight for the rights of living children for equal educational opportunity in safe schools and neighborhoods policed by officers who value all lives?
The long-standing goal of liberals of all religious persuasions has been to make abortion safe, legal, and rare. That’s a far better and more moral strategy than effecting a return to back alley abortions and rising infant mortality rates. Peace.
46
The first problem with this essay is your conflation of two groups: the religious right, which by its very label announces that it is political, and the evangelicals, some of whom are right-wingers but by no means all. Indeed among the younger evangelicals you may easily find attitudes that are more liberal than the "liberals'." And the hypocrisy of the religious right is not new-born, since it basically only supports the lives of the unborn.
But your closing paragraph was striking: "some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
Why do you think that is, I wonder? Is it because the left has always found its goal to be the bettering of conditions for all humanity? And the goal of the right is the preservation of favorable conditions for the ruling class at whatever cost? So the right needs a touch of "transcendence" (whatever your religionists conclude that to be) in order to be in the least way palatable.
You are one of the few on the right I can bear to read. You always hit the nail--but on the tip, not on the head
But your closing paragraph was striking: "some kind of religious conservatism must be rebuilt, because without the pull of transcendence, the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
Why do you think that is, I wonder? Is it because the left has always found its goal to be the bettering of conditions for all humanity? And the goal of the right is the preservation of favorable conditions for the ruling class at whatever cost? So the right needs a touch of "transcendence" (whatever your religionists conclude that to be) in order to be in the least way palatable.
You are one of the few on the right I can bear to read. You always hit the nail--but on the tip, not on the head
17
"the future of the right promises to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed."
Brother Ross it is already that. And has been for some decades. My emotional response is simply: A Pox upon their house. For all the pain and anguish they have caused America during my lifetime they deserve their fate. They are shrinking; dying more each day.
Their passing will be unlamented.
Brother Ross it is already that. And has been for some decades. My emotional response is simply: A Pox upon their house. For all the pain and anguish they have caused America during my lifetime they deserve their fate. They are shrinking; dying more each day.
Their passing will be unlamented.
63
Religion and politics don't mix. Our founding fathers knew it well.
The next smart move on the right is to lay down the line between religion and government.
The pledge of allegiance is a staunch declaration of faith in our government if the word "God" is removed. Leave it in and the whole pledge loses its meaning entirely.
The next smart move on the right is to lay down the line between religion and government.
The pledge of allegiance is a staunch declaration of faith in our government if the word "God" is removed. Leave it in and the whole pledge loses its meaning entirely.
23
The pull of transcendence exists in progressive congregations, too, and is much more in accord with the love Jesus preached. The future of the right is tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed without religious conservatives, and is even more so with them. Falwell and Falwell Jr. and his ilk captured conservative Christianity decades ago, and have used single-issue crusades to woo and fool the conservative Christians who cannot stand Trump into backing them. These conservative Christians have found themselves coopted into backing policies that were in fact cruel and unchristian, and repeating justifications for these policies that rested on dishonesties. Now when they are asked to accept Trump's repentance or whatever, they are finally gagging
Conservative Christians yield to no other Americans in their ability to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed, although they are badly beaten by Isis. We need a transcendence based on Martin Luther King's sort of Christianity rather than Jerry Falwell's or Pat Robertson's or Ralph Reed's or Opus Dei's, a transcendence that cares for the souls of garbage collectors by helping them gain the dignity of decent pay for hard work rather than telling them to pray more.
Our system of values is going to have to handle the automation of jobs that leaves many people with no social function to fill. This will require spiritual leadership that the conservative Christian establishment will fight as they fought desegregation in the South.
Conservative Christians yield to no other Americans in their ability to be tribal, cruel, and very dark indeed, although they are badly beaten by Isis. We need a transcendence based on Martin Luther King's sort of Christianity rather than Jerry Falwell's or Pat Robertson's or Ralph Reed's or Opus Dei's, a transcendence that cares for the souls of garbage collectors by helping them gain the dignity of decent pay for hard work rather than telling them to pray more.
Our system of values is going to have to handle the automation of jobs that leaves many people with no social function to fill. This will require spiritual leadership that the conservative Christian establishment will fight as they fought desegregation in the South.
41
Folks who do not believe in anthropogenic climate change but work to elect TRUMP to be President can not be called "serious" or "religious" or "conservatives." They do the work of promoting starvation, mass migration and war for coming generations. Actual religious conservatives are not voting for Trump for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is his disregard of the laws of nature and his ignorance of our responsibilities to our posterity.
In civics class we teach our children "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" civics. We tell them about the Judicial, Legislative and Executive Branches and that if they vote everything will turn out all right. I am told that in Germany students learn about propaganda and its strengths. The country of Beethoven and Goethe became the country of Hitler and of Niemoller: "...And when they came for me...".
Our Christian Right is goosestepping its way to crimes against humanity behind a Chaplinesque Great Dictator.
In civics class we teach our children "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" civics. We tell them about the Judicial, Legislative and Executive Branches and that if they vote everything will turn out all right. I am told that in Germany students learn about propaganda and its strengths. The country of Beethoven and Goethe became the country of Hitler and of Niemoller: "...And when they came for me...".
Our Christian Right is goosestepping its way to crimes against humanity behind a Chaplinesque Great Dictator.
62
"Believing" is not an element of science, it is an element of religion.
A reasonable person could conclude after reviewing the public knowledge about the climate and the effects of greenhouse gases, that CO2 created from burning fossil fuels is having an effect on the climate. No reasonable person who has read the EPA's clean energy plan could possibly conclude that it will reduce greenhouse gases or that it would be efficient. It will be very costly and at best, under the most generous assumptions, will reduce the temperature in the year 2100 by 0.1 degree Celsius.
Obama's plan will make a few cronies very wealthy and will make the poor and middle class worse off, increasing wealth inequality. Hillary has promised to go even further, indifferent to the needs of the poor or everyday Americans. But then again, she has disdain for people of faith, anyone who votes for Trump, needy Hispanics, people who the world order has left behind, Catholics and all other everyday Americans. She likes bankers, in her private opinions, but is obligated to take a different position in her public opinions.
In a democracy, if the executive leader wants to implement a public policy, he persuades the electorate, he persuades the legislature to pass laws and then he executes the law. He does not order a group to create regulations not supported by legislative intent but designed to punish his political enemies and then cram those regulations on an unwilling population.
A reasonable person could conclude after reviewing the public knowledge about the climate and the effects of greenhouse gases, that CO2 created from burning fossil fuels is having an effect on the climate. No reasonable person who has read the EPA's clean energy plan could possibly conclude that it will reduce greenhouse gases or that it would be efficient. It will be very costly and at best, under the most generous assumptions, will reduce the temperature in the year 2100 by 0.1 degree Celsius.
Obama's plan will make a few cronies very wealthy and will make the poor and middle class worse off, increasing wealth inequality. Hillary has promised to go even further, indifferent to the needs of the poor or everyday Americans. But then again, she has disdain for people of faith, anyone who votes for Trump, needy Hispanics, people who the world order has left behind, Catholics and all other everyday Americans. She likes bankers, in her private opinions, but is obligated to take a different position in her public opinions.
In a democracy, if the executive leader wants to implement a public policy, he persuades the electorate, he persuades the legislature to pass laws and then he executes the law. He does not order a group to create regulations not supported by legislative intent but designed to punish his political enemies and then cram those regulations on an unwilling population.
in voting for Hitler, one couldn't know the exact future in terms of lives to be lost. In voting for Trump, we know for certain millions of lives will be lost due to his and his followers' denial of human caused climate change.
The opposition to abortion by the religious right would be more acceptable and understandable by the left if the religious right was not so opposed to funding for contraceptive services to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
The constant drumbeat of attacks on Planned Parenthood that threatens their services for cancer screening and contraceptive care discredits the "religious right".
Another aspect is that there is little attention paid to the "religious left": those who do not view abortion and contraception as the most serious issues facing this nation, but are concerned with income inequality and climate change.
The constant drumbeat of attacks on Planned Parenthood that threatens their services for cancer screening and contraceptive care discredits the "religious right".
Another aspect is that there is little attention paid to the "religious left": those who do not view abortion and contraception as the most serious issues facing this nation, but are concerned with income inequality and climate change.
111
The religious right has no objection to public funding for contraceptive services. The religious right objects to forcing the Little Sisters to pay for them.
Planned Parenthood does not provide any cancer screenings. What they do is take federal Medicaid dollars, skim off a substantial percentage for overhead to subsidize abortion services, and pay the balance to outside laboratories and clinics to conduct cancer screenings.
Planned Parenthood does not provide any cancer screenings. What they do is take federal Medicaid dollars, skim off a substantial percentage for overhead to subsidize abortion services, and pay the balance to outside laboratories and clinics to conduct cancer screenings.
2
"The constant drumbeat of attacks on Planned Parenthood that threatens their services for cancer screening and contraceptive care discredits the "religious right"."
It wouldn't be that way if Planned Parenthood didn't receive taxpayer dollars. If PP is such a wonderful organization with millions of supporters, they should't get a single dime from the Treasury.
It wouldn't be that way if Planned Parenthood didn't receive taxpayer dollars. If PP is such a wonderful organization with millions of supporters, they should't get a single dime from the Treasury.
1
"First, serious religious conservatives didn’t want Trump."....Apparently there are not very many serious religious conservatives. What kind of seriously religious person would ever consider a vote for Donald Trump? And further more, no serious religious conservative would insist on shoving their interpretation of religion down their neighbors throat. Most of the people you classify as serious religious conservatives are nothing more than closet bigots, and they support Trump because he has opened the closet door.
61
I think anyone who reads and understands the message of the New Testament cannot deny that the lack of charity, self-righteousness and hatred of outsiders expressed by most of the religious right is anti-Christian. Religions are often corrupted to the extent that their most influential leaders preach the exact opposite of their original message. That so many evangelicals support Trump, a man with the ethics of an aggressive male chimpanzee, is a sign of how corrupt, power-crazed and just plain stupid these "Christians" have become.
273
The problem with the religious right is that it never cared about transcendence but about asserting that they and only they were "the good people" who deserved power. It was always tribal, cruel and dark.
They did not see African-Americans who are usually deeply religious as deserving of power. They did not see women that way either. It never approached any of us who did not share their views as sacred or worthwhile beings.
The policies they sought to put forward were cruel, lacked forgiveness, understanding or even basic humility. So spare me this defense.
Plenty of people find the best of themselves within their religious faith, the political movement called the religious right were not those people.
They did not see African-Americans who are usually deeply religious as deserving of power. They did not see women that way either. It never approached any of us who did not share their views as sacred or worthwhile beings.
The policies they sought to put forward were cruel, lacked forgiveness, understanding or even basic humility. So spare me this defense.
Plenty of people find the best of themselves within their religious faith, the political movement called the religious right were not those people.
205
African-Americans are frequently deeply religious and are also generally opposed to abortion on demand, justifiably believing that it is a continuation of the "scientific" eugenics of Margaret Sanger who believed the lesser races should not be permitted to reproduce since they were polluting the gene pool.
It is a mystery why they vote for Democrats, since they disagree on the issue of abortion. Those who have lived in Democrat ruled cities are far worse off than those living in Republican cities.
It is a mystery why they vote for Democrats, since they disagree on the issue of abortion. Those who have lived in Democrat ruled cities are far worse off than those living in Republican cities.
“In truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the cross.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
And of course, Jesus was really just a nice Jewish boy, Father Douthat, so I think it may be time to pack in your house of fake theological cards and throw in the towel on your cloistered superstitions.
Or perhaps your outlook might brighten with a simple conversion to Judaism and a complimentary bar mitzvah ceremony --- and the offer comes with a free sense of humor, Ross - think about it....there's only so much monotonous monastery madness the modern world can take before your self-induced Rapture arrives.
Let us pray.
― Friedrich Nietzsche
And of course, Jesus was really just a nice Jewish boy, Father Douthat, so I think it may be time to pack in your house of fake theological cards and throw in the towel on your cloistered superstitions.
Or perhaps your outlook might brighten with a simple conversion to Judaism and a complimentary bar mitzvah ceremony --- and the offer comes with a free sense of humor, Ross - think about it....there's only so much monotonous monastery madness the modern world can take before your self-induced Rapture arrives.
Let us pray.
99
"Let us pray."
Yes, actually, we should. We should pray for guidance in these tumultuous times. We should pray for wisdom and discernment of those elected over us. We should pray because, quite frankly, I don't believe the two major political parties will ever get past their gut-wrenching, soul-sucking and mindless quest for absolute power. We need to pray for corporations, special interest groups and everyday citizens to quit looking to our government as our savior, for it will always fail us and continually divide us. Yes, Socrates, we should pray. Care to join in?
Yes, actually, we should. We should pray for guidance in these tumultuous times. We should pray for wisdom and discernment of those elected over us. We should pray because, quite frankly, I don't believe the two major political parties will ever get past their gut-wrenching, soul-sucking and mindless quest for absolute power. We need to pray for corporations, special interest groups and everyday citizens to quit looking to our government as our savior, for it will always fail us and continually divide us. Yes, Socrates, we should pray. Care to join in?
2
Perhaps some day Mr. Douthat will meet Jesus and be informed (without a trace of pedantry or sarcasm) that the kind of intolerance that he and his cohorts in the world of Christian Conservatism subscribe to was not all that superior to the moral void of Donald Trump's candidacy. Tossing stones at "misbehaving" gays and pregnant women should be indulged in only those who are themselves without sin.
125
"...that the kind of intolerance that he and his cohorts in the world of Christian Conservatism subscribe to was not all that superior to the moral void of Donald Trump's candidacy."
Liberals have proven to be the most tolerant people in the world, until you disagree with them.
Liberals have proven to be the most tolerant people in the world, until you disagree with them.
"Tossing stones at "misbehaving" gays and pregnant women should be indulged in only those who are themselves without sin."
Or by nobody; that is likely the true message.
...Andrew
Or by nobody; that is likely the true message.
...Andrew
1
The first problem has been the continued attempts for over thirty years by the religious right to make their religion (and its moral viewpoint) superior to all other religions and put into public law. It has nothing at all to do with supposed (and phantom) restriction on their religion. The second problem is the hypocrisy of the religious right. Evangelicals in our area will vote for anyone with an R behind their name on the ballot and overlook any shortcomings of the candidate.
254
"The first problem has been the continued attempts for over thirty years by the religious right to make their religion (and its moral viewpoint) superior to all other religions and put into public law. It has nothing at all to do with supposed (and phantom) restriction on their religion."
It has everything to do with freedom of association. Liberals despise it and conservatives only want it for religious reasons. Both sides are wrong.
It has everything to do with freedom of association. Liberals despise it and conservatives only want it for religious reasons. Both sides are wrong.
1
It is rich that anyone who votes for the corrupt Hillary can criticize anyone else. It takes a lot of overlooking of not only shortcomings but actual criminal behavior.
As an ardent defender of religious freedom, I certainly support the rights of religious conservatives to practice their faith in their personal lives. As well, religious conservatives have the right to support candidates and parties of their choosing.
But religious conservatives should not be able to breach the separation of church and state, nor should they be able restrict the religious freedoms of others or to practice their faith in the commercial sphere. Unfortunately, some religious conservatives and the candidates that they support seem intent on imposing conservative Christian values on Americans with other religious and cultural beliefs. That tendency undercuts the tolerance and diversity on which our nation was founded.
But religious conservatives should not be able to breach the separation of church and state, nor should they be able restrict the religious freedoms of others or to practice their faith in the commercial sphere. Unfortunately, some religious conservatives and the candidates that they support seem intent on imposing conservative Christian values on Americans with other religious and cultural beliefs. That tendency undercuts the tolerance and diversity on which our nation was founded.
763
"Unfortunately, some religious conservatives and the candidates that they support seem intent on imposing conservative Christian values on Americans with other religious and cultural beliefs."
What would the left (or the LGBTQ community) do if a gay couple was refused service by a Muslim wedding photographer on religious grounds? Or a Jewish photographer? Has anyone in the LGBTQ community ever tried? Or is it just that Christians are such easy targets?
What would the left (or the LGBTQ community) do if a gay couple was refused service by a Muslim wedding photographer on religious grounds? Or a Jewish photographer? Has anyone in the LGBTQ community ever tried? Or is it just that Christians are such easy targets?
1
Here here!
This country was founded on the principal of separation of church and state.
I am really tired of the "moral superiority" of the religious right in this country.
Please practice your religion and hold onto your religious beliefs, but please, please leave me out of it and allow me to practice my beliefs, which do not coincide with your beliefs. You do not get to dictate what we do and don't do in this country based on your beliefs.
Which, is the reason we have separation of church and state.
I am really tired of the "moral superiority" of the religious right in this country.
Please practice your religion and hold onto your religious beliefs, but please, please leave me out of it and allow me to practice my beliefs, which do not coincide with your beliefs. You do not get to dictate what we do and don't do in this country based on your beliefs.
Which, is the reason we have separation of church and state.
1197
"This country was founded on the principal of separation of church and state."
Yes, because freedom of religion was not allowed in England if you did not belong to the Church of England. The Founders knew that and didn't want a repeat. But that only applied to the federal government. I believe Virginia had an official state religion for a while.
But the Founders were, by and large, a group of religious men. Many today might label them as the "religious right" of their time. But their faith, and with that their moral compass, though imperfect, was the foundation of our government.
So yes, there should be separation of church and state, but please understand that a religious world view helped found our nation. There is no way it would happen today.
Yes, because freedom of religion was not allowed in England if you did not belong to the Church of England. The Founders knew that and didn't want a repeat. But that only applied to the federal government. I believe Virginia had an official state religion for a while.
But the Founders were, by and large, a group of religious men. Many today might label them as the "religious right" of their time. But their faith, and with that their moral compass, though imperfect, was the foundation of our government.
So yes, there should be separation of church and state, but please understand that a religious world view helped found our nation. There is no way it would happen today.
It was founded on the principle of free exercise of religion. There is no requirement that religious beliefs be excluded from the making of law, so long as the laws do not interfere with others' free exercise.
The religious right is free to campaign for inclusion of its values in law, so long as those values do not establish a state religion.
The religious right is free to campaign for inclusion of its values in law, so long as those values do not establish a state religion.
I understand that abortion is a bottom line for some in the Christian Right. But it wasn't always so. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/03/hobby_l...
But today, would they be willing to see the death penalty and torture come roaring back, families torn apart in mass deportations and immigrants who've fled gang violence, widespread rape and desperate poverty in Central America return to face the horror. When the ACA is wiped out, will insurance companies return to denying some of medical care? In a Trump presidency there would be no assistance for those fleeing the ravages of war in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, or hunger in Eritrea, Sudan, and Somalia, and something less than careful bombing of the places where ISIS has strongholds. Hillary will "kill millions," they say. Have they run the numbers? Trump and a Republican congress could do some real damage
But today, would they be willing to see the death penalty and torture come roaring back, families torn apart in mass deportations and immigrants who've fled gang violence, widespread rape and desperate poverty in Central America return to face the horror. When the ACA is wiped out, will insurance companies return to denying some of medical care? In a Trump presidency there would be no assistance for those fleeing the ravages of war in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, or hunger in Eritrea, Sudan, and Somalia, and something less than careful bombing of the places where ISIS has strongholds. Hillary will "kill millions," they say. Have they run the numbers? Trump and a Republican congress could do some real damage
132
The 'religous right' opposes abortion. But once they're born, it's okay to give them the death penalty.
1
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, break every yoke....Judge not, lest you be judged....When the stranger comes to live among you, you should not molest him; you should love him as the homeborn among you....These are in the Bible. You could look it up.
The "religious right" treats Scripture as though the quotations above weren't there, and the only things that matter are being against abortion and gay rights. That's not my idea of Christianity, let alone religion.
The "religious right" treats Scripture as though the quotations above weren't there, and the only things that matter are being against abortion and gay rights. That's not my idea of Christianity, let alone religion.
1327
The one thing religions always prove is evolution.
Religions change. They can get larger - or they can shrink.
They can focus on different doctrine and dogma.
They can fall off the face of the earth.
The Religious Right has reduced itself to a 2-pronged cult: abortion and gays.
They will make atheists out of us all.
I already am.
"Transcendence"? They dumped that talk long ago.
Religions change. They can get larger - or they can shrink.
They can focus on different doctrine and dogma.
They can fall off the face of the earth.
The Religious Right has reduced itself to a 2-pronged cult: abortion and gays.
They will make atheists out of us all.
I already am.
"Transcendence"? They dumped that talk long ago.
4
Their are countless good people who are conservative and religious. That does not allow them to codify their religious beliefs into laws that the rest of us are then required to follow. Civilization does not require codified patriarchy. It's past time for religious conservatives to accept that freedom to worship their god the way they want to does not mean they can practice on me. When you can't keep order in your own realm then imposing that order on all the rest of us is not the answer.
531
"That does not allow them to codify their religious beliefs into laws that the rest of us are then required to follow."
Agreed. But what is the left's excuse for codifying good intentions and forcing everyone else to follow?
Agreed. But what is the left's excuse for codifying good intentions and forcing everyone else to follow?
It's not that long ago that religious and political conservatism did not automatically coincide. Ironically, it was the otherwise savvy Jimmy Carter that courted his fellow born-agains, and the die was cast; they poured into the political arena, and in future elections they went overwhelmingly for a marriage of convenience with the political right.
For their own good, and the good of the Republic, religious conservatives should separate themselves from the political right.
For their own good, and the good of the Republic, religious conservatives should separate themselves from the political right.
135
Despite what the left thinks, morals and culture are subjective. Liberalism is its own religion worshiping at the alter of diversitism and globalism. Religion is just the congregation of people who believe the same truths.
10
Liberalism - a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties; specifically, such a philosophy that considers government as a crucial instrument for amelioration of social inequities such as those involving race, gender, or class
Religion - an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
Outside The Box - there's no supernatural 'God' in liberalism, which is a very important distinction between liberalism and religion.
Liberalism is grounded in observable reality; and reality is known to have a very liberal bias.
That's why it is religion that is always forced to adapt to reality.
Reality is never forced to adapt to religion.
Religion has a conservative bias; it aches for yesteryear and wants to freeze time and human behavior in a bottle, but time, higher learning and reality can't be bothered with little old religious fantasies, but religion still keeps chasing reality like an annoying, barking little poodle jumping on your leg that ultimately deserves to be drop-kick punted 50 yards through the uprights for a game-winning field goal.
"Where knowledge ends, religion begins." - Benjamin Disraeli
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov
"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches." - Benjamin Franklin
Religion - an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
Outside The Box - there's no supernatural 'God' in liberalism, which is a very important distinction between liberalism and religion.
Liberalism is grounded in observable reality; and reality is known to have a very liberal bias.
That's why it is religion that is always forced to adapt to reality.
Reality is never forced to adapt to religion.
Religion has a conservative bias; it aches for yesteryear and wants to freeze time and human behavior in a bottle, but time, higher learning and reality can't be bothered with little old religious fantasies, but religion still keeps chasing reality like an annoying, barking little poodle jumping on your leg that ultimately deserves to be drop-kick punted 50 yards through the uprights for a game-winning field goal.
"Where knowledge ends, religion begins." - Benjamin Disraeli
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov
"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches." - Benjamin Franklin
209
You are absolutely right. I find it perplexing that many posters on this board believe and argue on behalf of an absolute wall between religion and state as if morality should play no role in political discussion.
But alas it does and it always will. Even Nazi and Stalinist were motivated by a philosophical agenda of Godlessness, nihilism, self interest and power. The same could be said for those who argue against the intrusion of religion in the political realm. They too have a philosophy and moral agenda. It just happens to be diametrically opposed to those who they seek to silence.
But alas it does and it always will. Even Nazi and Stalinist were motivated by a philosophical agenda of Godlessness, nihilism, self interest and power. The same could be said for those who argue against the intrusion of religion in the political realm. They too have a philosophy and moral agenda. It just happens to be diametrically opposed to those who they seek to silence.
1
What do you mean "despite what the left thinks"? I'm pretty sure the left thinks exactly that "morals and culture are subjective". Also, I'm pretty sure that following my local sports team and attending their games does not make me religious. That is a very outside-the-box way to look at religion but looking at it that way ends in the absurd because by that definition everything and nothing counts as religion.
2
The only rational that religious absolutists can lean on to prefer Trump over Hillary is abortion. Yet few are willing to go so far as admitting that women who have abortions should be treated as murderers and a particularly evil form of murder, ie killing their own offspring. Thus they themselves recognize that it is not murder. If you don't want an abortion no one forces you to have one and that should be the only sensible position on that subject.
156
The idea of abortion has become fraught. If the claim is that life begins at conception and the full protection of law must apply to any fertilized egg:
1. Birth Control pills and IUD's are murder weapons because they prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in the Uterus. Every woman using these devices is a murderess (or has at least attempted murder). (That's over 90% of Catholic women, for example.)
2. In vitro fertilization programs with their "thinning" of excess embryos and destruction of fertilized eggs are murder.
3. Every woman and girl who has ever used a "morning after" pill or had an abortion is a murderess.
But no. The fury is directed at the medical personnel who provide an on-demand service. Organizations who offer family planning to limit unwanted pregnancies are attacked.
Either the religious right is confused about the disconnect between their alleged moral beliefs and their actions--or they actually believe something else. Either way, there is nothing moral about any of it.
What we get is laws that work to kill poor women, and make their ability to manage their own bodies and families hard, but allow the well-off full freedom of action. We do not get laws that inconvenience or criminalize any men or non-poor women for performing exactly the same "condemned" behaviors.
1. Birth Control pills and IUD's are murder weapons because they prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in the Uterus. Every woman using these devices is a murderess (or has at least attempted murder). (That's over 90% of Catholic women, for example.)
2. In vitro fertilization programs with their "thinning" of excess embryos and destruction of fertilized eggs are murder.
3. Every woman and girl who has ever used a "morning after" pill or had an abortion is a murderess.
But no. The fury is directed at the medical personnel who provide an on-demand service. Organizations who offer family planning to limit unwanted pregnancies are attacked.
Either the religious right is confused about the disconnect between their alleged moral beliefs and their actions--or they actually believe something else. Either way, there is nothing moral about any of it.
What we get is laws that work to kill poor women, and make their ability to manage their own bodies and families hard, but allow the well-off full freedom of action. We do not get laws that inconvenience or criminalize any men or non-poor women for performing exactly the same "condemned" behaviors.
12
Ah, the Gospel according to man. Tell me who among us has the moral authority to decide who lives and who dies? From what absolute moral vantage do you assert such authority? The obvious answer is: you, yourself and I. You've established yourself as the final arbiter of such issues. But you're not God.
Oh wait. I'm sorry. I almost forgot. You're your own God.
Oh wait. I'm sorry. I almost forgot. You're your own God.
1
As long as the Christian right does not want to support poor children with free preschool and/or their mothers with public assistance then they should stop forcing women to give birth. The still have the right to have as many children as they want but not to force others to have them. They can adopt as many as they want too.
427
Poor 'children' and 'infants' are too old for the Religious Right to care about.
They only care about blastoplasts, fetuses and those without the proper papers yet. A birth-certificate rules them out as being too old.
They only care about blastoplasts, fetuses and those without the proper papers yet. A birth-certificate rules them out as being too old.
3
Not to mention their opposition to birth control.
3
Even though the Cardinal here does not care to admit it, the fact is the religious right is dying for two reasons: First, it has sought to bring theocracy to what has always - always - has been a secular nation. Second, the religious right has never seen a way to compromise on any of its issues, from termination of an unwanted pregnancy to acceptance of non-traditional families.
It lost authority because it had no real authority to begin with, and because its entire existence was owed to craven Republican politicians exploiting the naïveté of its members.
On pregnancy termination alone, it ignores the fact that Roe v Wade doesn't require anyone to end a pregnancy. All it does is allow women who, for whatever reason, to eliminate some tissue and fluid long before a sentient being is biirthed.
Yet much of this same passel of do gooders don't object to executing prisoners, some of who (as the Innocence Project has shown) committed no crime.
Their "Christian charity" disappears when it come to spending government money to feed hungry kids, provide health care for families, ensure decent jobs, etc.
What hypocrisy.
If the Religious Right is fading away, it's not a moment to soon.
It lost authority because it had no real authority to begin with, and because its entire existence was owed to craven Republican politicians exploiting the naïveté of its members.
On pregnancy termination alone, it ignores the fact that Roe v Wade doesn't require anyone to end a pregnancy. All it does is allow women who, for whatever reason, to eliminate some tissue and fluid long before a sentient being is biirthed.
Yet much of this same passel of do gooders don't object to executing prisoners, some of who (as the Innocence Project has shown) committed no crime.
Their "Christian charity" disappears when it come to spending government money to feed hungry kids, provide health care for families, ensure decent jobs, etc.
What hypocrisy.
If the Religious Right is fading away, it's not a moment to soon.
1716
Although I share many of your beliefs, the fact is that in the South, the Churches are often the social entity feeding the poor. It's no accident that there seems to be a church every hundred yards. Southerners also spend a higher proportion of their earnings on charitable giving. It's not always disagreement on what needs to be done, but how to do it.
3
Apparently, it is necessary to separate the truly religious right from those who are not solely motivated by Christian principles. If they support the same candidates this may be a distinction without a difference. But for the sake of argument, let's accept the premise. Why didn't they put forward a candidate who genuinely represents their principles? Even as a third party candidate. Anyone who would swear on the Bible they believe Trump is a devout Christian and is truly "pro-life" should be worried about eternity in hell. A devout Christian who has not opposed Trump is a hypocrite.
350
I also believe:
When the Rich no longer believe in God or Hell, they lose all fear.
When the Poor no longer believe in God or Heaven, they lose all hope.
When the Rich have no moral compass they eat everything and everyone.
When the Poor have no hope, they commit suicide, quickly with a gun or slowly with drugs.
Liberals try to live some form of Jesus' teachings without magic.
Come over to reality, Ross, support universal birth control and prevent all abortions.