In the real world, no one talks like Trump/Billy and if they do, they are castigated by the group. We all have sisters, Ms. This is insane.
10
Trump is a pig. Never could understand males going hard after women who had no interest in them. Some of us are addicted to long, slow seductions, some as long as a year, where you finally allow the lady to push you up against a wall as she asks why you don't seem interested in her. If the lady wants you, she will let you know. Think of Caesar and Cleopatra.
15
It should be noted that way to many young females want to mimic the likes of Beyoncé, Miley Cyrus, and various other notables whose behavior objectifies women. This can send the wrong message to males.
Males are visual creatures as countless studies have shown. Yet I have yet to hear of any human sexuality class that teaches this. The brain is the main sex organ yet it seems sex education classes focus more on STD's, preventing pregnancy, transgender, same sex issues.
Equally disheartening is the lack of discussion about non conservative, non Republican males who being 'progressive' think sex with a woman is to be expected. And that if a woman isn't interested, she must be a lesbian, or god forbid a conservative.
Males are visual creatures as countless studies have shown. Yet I have yet to hear of any human sexuality class that teaches this. The brain is the main sex organ yet it seems sex education classes focus more on STD's, preventing pregnancy, transgender, same sex issues.
Equally disheartening is the lack of discussion about non conservative, non Republican males who being 'progressive' think sex with a woman is to be expected. And that if a woman isn't interested, she must be a lesbian, or god forbid a conservative.
8
Mr. Luettgen, with respect, I cannot fathom how you deem Donald Trump to be a better selection than Hillary Clinton for POTUS. Trump would have difficulty even mentally processing your comments in the NYT, much less beginning to grasp even the most general outlines of various policies which he would have to constantly address as president. Notwithstanding his utter lack of character and integrity, nor the personal discipline required to learn what he needed to know to do the job, he is just not smart enough. His talent, such as it is, is in possessing a dark sort of bad boy charisma that only the most gullible and the proudly willfully ignorant would get behind.
41
Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton?
I think I will carry on as I always have. The Presidents and I really don't interact all that much.
I think I will carry on as I always have. The Presidents and I really don't interact all that much.
2
Trump is beyond belief. Bill Clinton, and Hilary his enabler, were beneath contempt. Look at Breitbart interview of Juanita Broaddrick. This has nothing to do with feminism. It has everything to do with many people of all walks of life being fed up with the revolving Wall St. Fed Revolving door. We want to protest. For some, not me, Trump is the only man speaking truth to power. Hilary will be more of the same and worse than Obama.
6
The GOP had women issues long before Mr. Trump, so I wouldn't bet the rent on any changes,
29
From Media Research Center:
The New York Times has changed its mind on the importance of “rape cases.”
Said Broaddrick:
“Then he tries to kiss me again. And the second time he tries to kiss me he starts biting my lip … He starts to, um, bite on my top lip and I tried to pull away from him. And then he forces me down on the bed. And I just was very frightened, and I tried to get away from him and I told him ‘No,’ that I didn’t want this to happen but he wouldn’t listen to me.…It was a real panicky, panicky situation. I was even to the point where I was getting very noisy, you know, yelling to ‘Please stop.’ And that’s when he pressed down on my right shoulder and he would bite my lip. … When everything was over with, he got up and straightened himself, and I was crying at the moment and he walks to the door, and calmly puts on his sunglasses. And before he goes out the door he says ‘You better get some ice on that.’ And he turned and went out the door.”
Broaddrick added that not long after this Hillary Clinton personally tried to bully her into silence.
Long sit downs with Broaddrick on the front page of The Times? Or with any of the other women who have accused Bill Clinton of sexually assaulting them? Of course not. Not a prayer.
My comment:
With Liberal commentators like Ms Orenstein, if victim is raped or as in the case of Cappaquiddick manslaughter as long as it is a Dem who is for abortion and gay rights they get a pass.
Shame on Ms Orenstein and the NY Times
The New York Times has changed its mind on the importance of “rape cases.”
Said Broaddrick:
“Then he tries to kiss me again. And the second time he tries to kiss me he starts biting my lip … He starts to, um, bite on my top lip and I tried to pull away from him. And then he forces me down on the bed. And I just was very frightened, and I tried to get away from him and I told him ‘No,’ that I didn’t want this to happen but he wouldn’t listen to me.…It was a real panicky, panicky situation. I was even to the point where I was getting very noisy, you know, yelling to ‘Please stop.’ And that’s when he pressed down on my right shoulder and he would bite my lip. … When everything was over with, he got up and straightened himself, and I was crying at the moment and he walks to the door, and calmly puts on his sunglasses. And before he goes out the door he says ‘You better get some ice on that.’ And he turned and went out the door.”
Broaddrick added that not long after this Hillary Clinton personally tried to bully her into silence.
Long sit downs with Broaddrick on the front page of The Times? Or with any of the other women who have accused Bill Clinton of sexually assaulting them? Of course not. Not a prayer.
My comment:
With Liberal commentators like Ms Orenstein, if victim is raped or as in the case of Cappaquiddick manslaughter as long as it is a Dem who is for abortion and gay rights they get a pass.
Shame on Ms Orenstein and the NY Times
8
I think to be a man today and in fact even yesterday you need to ask before you act, take no for an answer and respect the bounds of matrimony/commitment whether it be yours or the others. You need to understand that conquest over a race or sex doesn't make you a bigger man. I believe the majority of men understand this and act accordingly, however as with everything we hear about the minority.
20
Few have mentioned Trump's thin skin. Everything becomes personalized. He cannot tolerate criticism, real or imagined, then lashes out.
Could there be a worse characteristic in a person of power, boss or president?
Could there be a worse characteristic in a person of power, boss or president?
56
Try to keep up Peggy. Feminism died in the 90s. It was killed off by Bill and Hillary Clinton, who put the Gloria Steinum crowd in a bind by forcing them to choose between a sexual predator (or rapist) named Bill Clinton, his enabler and bimbo-eruption specialist Hillary, and the unwavering support of unrestricted aboration they represented. They choose abortion over women. Which anyone could have predicted I suppose.
12
I hate to generalize, but when you say boys "see girls' limits as a challenge to be overcome," what do you expect given our American dating culture?
We expect boys to make nearly every move- to ask a girl out, to make the plans, to choose the activity (make sure it's a good one!), to pay, to take her home, to make the first kiss- in fact to make just about every first move- all the while making sure that he is neither too forward nor too shy, and doing it all with style and confidence.
There are exceptions, of course, and things change over time, but really, that's mainstream American dating, right there. And it really doesn't change for adults. Europeans and other foreigners find it all quite bizarre.
We expect boys to overcome all these challenges to pair up with a girl and then we give them grief for treating dating and girls as challenges to be overcome?
Let's talk about fairness here. Sure some boys (and men) are jerk, cads, and even criminals, but most are just trying to find companionship.
As a girl or woman, want to take a big step toward ending the perception of girls' limits as a challenge to be overcome?
Ask people out. Pay your way. Make moves. When you mean yes, say yes, don't say no in the expectation/hope that you will be asked again.
Actual lines I've heard from women: "I'll sleep with you if you buy me dinner." "I only go Dutch with a guy if I don't want to sleep,with him." The Trump mirror image.
In short, step up and woman up or shut up.
We expect boys to make nearly every move- to ask a girl out, to make the plans, to choose the activity (make sure it's a good one!), to pay, to take her home, to make the first kiss- in fact to make just about every first move- all the while making sure that he is neither too forward nor too shy, and doing it all with style and confidence.
There are exceptions, of course, and things change over time, but really, that's mainstream American dating, right there. And it really doesn't change for adults. Europeans and other foreigners find it all quite bizarre.
We expect boys to overcome all these challenges to pair up with a girl and then we give them grief for treating dating and girls as challenges to be overcome?
Let's talk about fairness here. Sure some boys (and men) are jerk, cads, and even criminals, but most are just trying to find companionship.
As a girl or woman, want to take a big step toward ending the perception of girls' limits as a challenge to be overcome?
Ask people out. Pay your way. Make moves. When you mean yes, say yes, don't say no in the expectation/hope that you will be asked again.
Actual lines I've heard from women: "I'll sleep with you if you buy me dinner." "I only go Dutch with a guy if I don't want to sleep,with him." The Trump mirror image.
In short, step up and woman up or shut up.
43
Is it really fun if it isn't consensual? Personally I doubt it.
26
Modern American men who aren't jerks often rush away from the extreme of perceived boorishness, wanting desperately not to be thought of as one of "them," - meaning the men who wear casual sexism like after-shave, the men always one beat away from whining "I see, we all are being politically correct now.. . " - so us nice guys don't want to be counted among the rough beasts slouching towards Football to be born, and so we walk on eggshells, muting our own needs, our own legitimate interests, not sure of the right way to make even the most basic requests, for fear of . . . well, you know.
7
Now, against my better judgement and that of my better angels, I am going to rate the Trump family as they appear on my television screen at the moment:
First Daughter Ivanka: Not really so hot as touted, maybe a 6 or 7?
Second Daughter Tiffany: Too much the cupie doll, a 3 or 4 at most;
Son Don "Junior" Trump's trophy wife (for now), best of the litter, maybe an 8?
Son Eric's present wife, nothing special (and that hair?), eh, just a 5; and finally
And then there is Melanoma, who could forget her, definitely a 9 except for that permanent scowl tattooed across her face (must have been the early childhood commie regime), oh well, give her an 8, just to be kind . . .
Well that's it, my man "The Donald" . . . How does it feel?
First Daughter Ivanka: Not really so hot as touted, maybe a 6 or 7?
Second Daughter Tiffany: Too much the cupie doll, a 3 or 4 at most;
Son Don "Junior" Trump's trophy wife (for now), best of the litter, maybe an 8?
Son Eric's present wife, nothing special (and that hair?), eh, just a 5; and finally
And then there is Melanoma, who could forget her, definitely a 9 except for that permanent scowl tattooed across her face (must have been the early childhood commie regime), oh well, give her an 8, just to be kind . . .
Well that's it, my man "The Donald" . . . How does it feel?
2
This isn't the age of Trump. We are living through the violent last gasps of Empire, while being flogged by a bipartisan elite, which has benefitted from the tarnished trappings of the this risible Pax Americana, which is nothing more than an Empire of Chaos.
The requirements of manhood are constant, and it was ironically the poet of the final Age Of Imperial Triumph, Rudyard Kipling, who said everything that any man, or woman for that matter, needs to know about becoming man who is the measure of man.
Kipling's primer on the mature adult human being, who has individuated above and beyond the willful abandon of psychopathy is really a little poem, with a lot of heart called "If!"
The Last stanza of "If:"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
For my Erin I changed son to daughter, and she has lived up to the challenge as an artist, and a gay woman who will be forty this year. She has a heart of gold, with a backbone that has caused me to call her Rocky.
My son heals the sick, and he is without avarice. I gave him the poem when he was 13, and it remained on our refrigerator, held in place by a magnet...a reminder.
The requirements of manhood are constant, and it was ironically the poet of the final Age Of Imperial Triumph, Rudyard Kipling, who said everything that any man, or woman for that matter, needs to know about becoming man who is the measure of man.
Kipling's primer on the mature adult human being, who has individuated above and beyond the willful abandon of psychopathy is really a little poem, with a lot of heart called "If!"
The Last stanza of "If:"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
For my Erin I changed son to daughter, and she has lived up to the challenge as an artist, and a gay woman who will be forty this year. She has a heart of gold, with a backbone that has caused me to call her Rocky.
My son heals the sick, and he is without avarice. I gave him the poem when he was 13, and it remained on our refrigerator, held in place by a magnet...a reminder.
7
Some of us are already exceptions.
You don't know our names yet, but you will.
Believe me....You will.
You don't know our names yet, but you will.
Believe me....You will.
What an amazing piece of bigotry and sexism. Let's replace the word men with African-Americans or women to get the full feel of the level of bigotry in this article. Let's imagine a man writing an article about how to be a woman. Sexism and bigotry have no place in our society. This article is as disgusting an example of bigotry as Trump's own misogynistic statements.
10
It all seems to go back to the whole Madonna/Whore dichotomy. It would be nice if schools/parents addressed this and picked it apart instead of going along with it.
Also, silence = complicity/approval when it comes to men and boys making disparaging comments about women and girls. If you don't speak out about it, as a male, as uncomfortable as it may be, you are encouraging and supporting these attitudes through your silence. Just like racism is perpetuated when we don't stand up to it.
Also, silence = complicity/approval when it comes to men and boys making disparaging comments about women and girls. If you don't speak out about it, as a male, as uncomfortable as it may be, you are encouraging and supporting these attitudes through your silence. Just like racism is perpetuated when we don't stand up to it.
6
Most of the boys I grew up with were terrified of girls. We feared a lot of the same things girls fear - not being attractive enough, not being loved, not being...well, whatever it is that girls like.
And you know, it's not like girls don't say insulting and hurtful things to and about boys.
You take a bunch of people full of raging hormones, who don't understand themselves, let alone each other, put them in a room and fill them full of alcohol...you're not going to get an intelligent discussion along the lines of "Meet the Press."
Hopefully maturity kicks in at some point and you get a little perspective, some empathy, and some manners. You learn to treat people of all colors, genders, cultures and skills with respect and decency.
Or, you just grow up to be a selfish, mean-spirited jerk.
And you know, it's not like girls don't say insulting and hurtful things to and about boys.
You take a bunch of people full of raging hormones, who don't understand themselves, let alone each other, put them in a room and fill them full of alcohol...you're not going to get an intelligent discussion along the lines of "Meet the Press."
Hopefully maturity kicks in at some point and you get a little perspective, some empathy, and some manners. You learn to treat people of all colors, genders, cultures and skills with respect and decency.
Or, you just grow up to be a selfish, mean-spirited jerk.
27
Can we begin, can you Ms. Orenstein, begin by agreeing to remake the GOP into a party that fundamentally rejects the manipulation of race and gender as means to win elections? I'm not talking about things about which reasonable people might reasonably disagree. I'm talking about the not so subtle callouts to racists to support the GOP because it will, for example, suppress minority voting. How is that the "party of Lincoln"?
9
Trump is a boar and a bore but let's not be blind. The GOP isn really outraged about what he is saying...its faux outrage. This is the party of criminalizing miscarriages, state sponsored rape of pregnant women with ultrasound rods. This is the party of men who muse about "legitimate rape" and belied it is the government's job to police women's medical decisions.
Women are tools to them, vehicles to and end and that is exactly what this faux outrage is about and the media is buying into it big time!
Donald Trump is the GOP's view of women writ large and they really don't want us to know. Don't be fooled. It's faux outrage, nothing more.
Women are tools to them, vehicles to and end and that is exactly what this faux outrage is about and the media is buying into it big time!
Donald Trump is the GOP's view of women writ large and they really don't want us to know. Don't be fooled. It's faux outrage, nothing more.
29
Are you aware that this type of male behavior had a beginning? It began with our tolerance of rap "music". Since the behavior is recent, it's really not hard to pin its origins down. Just look at You Tube videos of sock hops from the Fifties, and you'll see that normal behavior then was far different. Of course, it's problematic to tag misogynist rap as the cause, because that would be so politically incorrect!
4
You have got to be kidding. If I behaved like this Donald J. Trump, my G/F would have me whimpering on the floor inside of a minute.
Women don't have to take, and won't sit still for, this kind of behavior.
Trump is a "Denebian-Slime-Worm", and no woman, nay No One, has to subject him/her/it Self to his bully tactics ... unless they're dumb to enough to want to.
Women don't have to take, and won't sit still for, this kind of behavior.
Trump is a "Denebian-Slime-Worm", and no woman, nay No One, has to subject him/her/it Self to his bully tactics ... unless they're dumb to enough to want to.
5
How to Be a Man in the Age of Trump.
You start out and respect all people unconditionally. And as long as they haven't done something seriously wrong or immoral*, you treat them with respect til the end.
*Having different beliefs or political ideas does not make one immoral.
You start out and respect all people unconditionally. And as long as they haven't done something seriously wrong or immoral*, you treat them with respect til the end.
*Having different beliefs or political ideas does not make one immoral.
9
This article does not live up to its title.
2
Trump is for women the equivalent of the iPhone video of police shooting African Americans.
4
Reporting on a book? What company has enough money to waste for reporting on a book? I would like to get a job with them. Then I would be able to waste a lot of money reporting.
The toxic brew of self-righteousness, smugness, and hypocrisy emanating from "progressive" "feminists" is breathtaking. The same brave women who condemn Trump's piggish behavior (which is what it has been) gave Bill Clinton a pass 20 years ago for behavior that was far worse, and now give his enabler wife a pass as well.
What passes for a "news" media has become a collection of full-throated propaganda outlets, openly coordinating with the Clinton campaign. And now you have the gall to tell anyone "how to be a man?"
You have to be joking, except that I know you are not joking. "Pathetic" doesn't even begin to cover it.
What passes for a "news" media has become a collection of full-throated propaganda outlets, openly coordinating with the Clinton campaign. And now you have the gall to tell anyone "how to be a man?"
You have to be joking, except that I know you are not joking. "Pathetic" doesn't even begin to cover it.
5
It goes without saying that men can be creepy, stupid, and oblivious, and worse. But to take Donald Trump's behavior- in the worse category- and blame all men for it is disingenuous and facile. Demonizing all men won't bring you the progress that's needed because men are a big part of the solution.
1
Plenty of conservative intellectuals have been leading the fight against Mr. Trump for months now. You could read Jonah Goldberg (@JonahNRO) or Kevin Williamson (@KevinNR) or David French (@DavidAFrench) or George Will if you are interested. They were fighting Mr. Trump when the liberal press was fawning all over him, pleased with the ratings he generated and hopeful that he would prove to be a weak GOP candidate.
Let's show sympathy for poor Melania. She now finds herself in the same position as Hillary, when Hillary discovery Bill was philandering with Monica Lewinsky. For Melania. The revelations are far worse. Trump was molesting and propositioning all these women soon after she and Trump were married--and Melania was pregnant.
7
Educating young people about consent and respect not only allows for healthier sexual relationships and better friendships but also may keep young men off the sexual offender registry. As a criminal defense lawyer with a sizable portion of my practice representing young people charged with sex offenses, I am dismayed by how many of my young clients have never received this basic education. For example, many young men actually think that if a person is drunk or unconscious then having sex with that person is not rape. Many of their victims also assume the same thing. Now in the Age of Trump, I brace myself for the next young man to be marched into my office by his distraught parents, charged with a sex offense for grabbing a young woman's vagina. One could understand why he would think that i's okay given Trump's bragging and his defenders insisting that this conduct is not sexual assault. (Free legal advice: it is.)
I recently wrote a piece titled "The New Sex Ed: What Young People Need To Know About Sex Laws." I believe that this is a conversation that parents, educators, and caregivers should have with young people and I hope that my piece can be of assistance in starting a conversation:
http://kgdefenselaw.com/what-young-people-need-to-know-about-sex-laws-in...
And here is a handy infographic
http://kgdefenselaw.com/2016/08/26/infographic-sex-laws/
I recently wrote a piece titled "The New Sex Ed: What Young People Need To Know About Sex Laws." I believe that this is a conversation that parents, educators, and caregivers should have with young people and I hope that my piece can be of assistance in starting a conversation:
http://kgdefenselaw.com/what-young-people-need-to-know-about-sex-laws-in...
And here is a handy infographic
http://kgdefenselaw.com/2016/08/26/infographic-sex-laws/
5
You lost me at "Sexual coercion, in one form or another, is as American as..." Please look outside your tiny world. Sexual coercion, like any other anti-social behaviour, is not bounded by geography or nationality.
4
I've commonly objectified men and women. A man in our group is known as 'hammer' and another 'fishhook'. Similarly a lady we know is 'kewpie doll' and another is dolphin. Usages of this sort are not rare in Keats or Shelly. My dear wife is 'light of my life' but I surely do not intend to thus reduce her to a set of wavelengths.
But more to the point, the kind of talk and behavior manifested by this repulsive boor is not manly or acceptable in the world of real men. We are apt apt to assume that is the sign of an arrested 13 year old, or the cheap bravado of someone with serious feelings of inadequacy
But more to the point, the kind of talk and behavior manifested by this repulsive boor is not manly or acceptable in the world of real men. We are apt apt to assume that is the sign of an arrested 13 year old, or the cheap bravado of someone with serious feelings of inadequacy
7
Trump does not represent "men" or "maleness."
He represents insecurity, entitlement, detachment, stupidity, narcissism, selfishness, bigotry, and a whole host of psychological defects which make him a misogynist and abuser.
He represents insecurity, entitlement, detachment, stupidity, narcissism, selfishness, bigotry, and a whole host of psychological defects which make him a misogynist and abuser.
13
You know what? I began reading this hoping to gain insight into what it is like to be a women who has been assaulted. What I realized instead is that we have a long way to go because it still has to be said that sexually assaulting women is wrong.
7
No one who has any self respect wants to be treated principally as the object of someone else's lust. Man or woman.
2
Indeed, a discussion needs to be started on the paranoia western societies have over "rape". Let's begin.
You claim that such behavior is not representative of men, then you proceed to give examples of its widespread occurrence. Does that make sense to you? Assuming Trump's accusers are not lying (which is doubtful given the timing), Trump's behavior towards women IS representative of men, it only seems less obvious in first world countries.
Oh, and is there a reason why Bill Clinton isn't in your list of high-profile sex offenders..?
Is it because these private indiscretions are not important compared to the policies the politicians stand for?
The very idea that people vote based on such hysteria over vague sexual accusation is not only offensive, it's socially backwards. This episode reveals deep problems not just in American society, but also the very idea of democracy itself.
You claim that such behavior is not representative of men, then you proceed to give examples of its widespread occurrence. Does that make sense to you? Assuming Trump's accusers are not lying (which is doubtful given the timing), Trump's behavior towards women IS representative of men, it only seems less obvious in first world countries.
Oh, and is there a reason why Bill Clinton isn't in your list of high-profile sex offenders..?
Is it because these private indiscretions are not important compared to the policies the politicians stand for?
The very idea that people vote based on such hysteria over vague sexual accusation is not only offensive, it's socially backwards. This episode reveals deep problems not just in American society, but also the very idea of democracy itself.
Exploration of this topic is the only positive thing to come out of Trump's nomination.
10
Oh please don't tell me Tom Cruise is leading the march "of soul-searching" for men and Bill Clinton is protesting "Miss Teen USA" by calling for burka bathing suits for all women under 25?
What's next--bikinis by age-group and only in designated areas on the beach? Buying cosmetics by teenaged girls a future crime--like ammo for a gun?
Perhaps those skin-tight, "perfect" formfitting jeans are the real problem. Time for the FBI to look into Levi's passion to make young women look "hot"?
Or perhaps, it's mom and dad who direct their sails that's the problem. Time for the government to step in, right?
What's next--bikinis by age-group and only in designated areas on the beach? Buying cosmetics by teenaged girls a future crime--like ammo for a gun?
Perhaps those skin-tight, "perfect" formfitting jeans are the real problem. Time for the FBI to look into Levi's passion to make young women look "hot"?
Or perhaps, it's mom and dad who direct their sails that's the problem. Time for the government to step in, right?
3
This article is really good, and this area of study is so necessary. In my high school, circa 70s-80s, the lessons never went beyond diseases and pregnancy.
Girls don't physically harm boys, and that is the most important asymmetrical issue to address, first. Trump, et al, harbor deep resentments, and respond to them very poorly, violently, criminally.
Perhaps they're outliers, but it would be GREAT to avoid it altogether. I posit they DO KNOW BETTER, but feel safe in their power, whether it is money, or a lack of witnesses.
While the genders will speak ill of one another when commiserating about their partners, no one EVER has the right to subjugate another person, let alone attack them outright.
The psychology of each gender goes SO FAR beyond what anatomy and self-discovery can offer: Perceptions, Expectations, Strategies of each gender need to be deciphered, catalogued, distilled and published in concise terms.
It's a book everyone wants to read. Every step in courting seems to require, imply, result in something ruinously unforeseen.
Girls don't physically harm boys, and that is the most important asymmetrical issue to address, first. Trump, et al, harbor deep resentments, and respond to them very poorly, violently, criminally.
Perhaps they're outliers, but it would be GREAT to avoid it altogether. I posit they DO KNOW BETTER, but feel safe in their power, whether it is money, or a lack of witnesses.
While the genders will speak ill of one another when commiserating about their partners, no one EVER has the right to subjugate another person, let alone attack them outright.
The psychology of each gender goes SO FAR beyond what anatomy and self-discovery can offer: Perceptions, Expectations, Strategies of each gender need to be deciphered, catalogued, distilled and published in concise terms.
It's a book everyone wants to read. Every step in courting seems to require, imply, result in something ruinously unforeseen.
1
Gentleman, what if Donald Trump was talking about his experience with your mother or sister?
4
A friend remarked that Trump's escapades give men a bad name. No, Trump's escapades give Trump and those who continue to support him to hold the nation's highest office a bad name.
4
Recall Lisbeth Salander (Girl With the Dragon Tattoo) and how she dealt with gov't official who raped her:
https://youtu.be/1h80T96Nsbw
She knew the male-created, male-enforced system was rigged against females. So she depended neither on system nor males for justice.
Small wonder that, as the only son of a waitress Mom who raised three kids while fending off a no-account thieving bigamist hubby plus a church that blamed all his crimes on her, I've always been drawn to strong females.
Reared in a female-dominant family, first time I heard a boyhood pal make fun of females as being weaker, I thought he was joking. No such females in my family.
https://youtu.be/1h80T96Nsbw
She knew the male-created, male-enforced system was rigged against females. So she depended neither on system nor males for justice.
Small wonder that, as the only son of a waitress Mom who raised three kids while fending off a no-account thieving bigamist hubby plus a church that blamed all his crimes on her, I've always been drawn to strong females.
Reared in a female-dominant family, first time I heard a boyhood pal make fun of females as being weaker, I thought he was joking. No such females in my family.
6
How to be a man these days easy to say, but difficult to do.
First you need to take responsibility for who you are, your thoughts and deeds.
Then be open to change and listening to those around you even if it is not what you want to hear especially then.
You need to acknowledge others and their various paths while standing up too those who are not interested in honesty or the plight of others.
Gandhi was a man, so was dr. Martin Luther King and now President Obama.
It is not an easy path but the only honorable way to go. full of failure and trying again.
First you need to take responsibility for who you are, your thoughts and deeds.
Then be open to change and listening to those around you even if it is not what you want to hear especially then.
You need to acknowledge others and their various paths while standing up too those who are not interested in honesty or the plight of others.
Gandhi was a man, so was dr. Martin Luther King and now President Obama.
It is not an easy path but the only honorable way to go. full of failure and trying again.
4
Will the G.O.P. candidate unwittingly inspire a new bipartisan feminism? No.
1
Feminism died in the 90s when activist women failed to support the victims of Clinton's sexual assaults. That cat is not going back into the bag. To be credible, you must apply your principles regardless of political positions.
Ironic that the "pretext" North Carolina Republicans give for the HB2 (House/Hate Bill 2) is that male pervs and creeps will enter the girls bathroom, locker room or changing rooms. In other words, they were thinking of a person exactly like Trump.
Yet these same "holier than thou" REPUBLICANS SUPPORT TRUMP for POTUS!!! What gives?
Why Trump and all of his properties are not on the nationwide (global) sexual predator registry is beyond me. Oh, that's right - he's got lots of money.
Yet these same "holier than thou" REPUBLICANS SUPPORT TRUMP for POTUS!!! What gives?
Why Trump and all of his properties are not on the nationwide (global) sexual predator registry is beyond me. Oh, that's right - he's got lots of money.
2
I think it is possible to have separate masculine and female roles without coercion. It's called the art of seduction and it's what dads should be teaching their teenage boys. No healthy 17-21 year old girl should need much encouraging to go down that path with a respectful young man she finds attractive both physically and mentally. And if you're good at it and want to brag about it with your closest friends and then run for president one day and others hear about it... you're likely to gain votes.
1
Will Trump "unwittingly" bring about bipartisan feminism? NO!! Quit crediting Trump (even indirectly) for any progress toward positive gender relations. Decent, intelligent women and men have worked for bipartisan feminism for decades; Trump's attack on it has simply made people aware that it's ongoing (if they care to read beyond the headlines). I'm so tired of Trump getting backward "credit" in NYT headlines!
I think the NY Times should interview (and comment) on the rapist/sexual predator, Bill Clinton, who will soon be occupying the White House in his former cozy "oval office". Any bets he will do it with someone there again? (and I do not think Hillary, his roommate).
1
I'm not sure if a woman is the right choice to say what a 'man' is; I'd like to hear her say what a 'woman' is. Simple definitions are difficult because they're too generalized.
Men never get pregnant, we never grow a baby inside of us, we never give birth and hold our creation, we never breatfeed, etc. Women are both challenged and blessed by such. We are on a different path.
We need to intensify our focus when our partner or wife gets pregnant and gives birth and nurtures new life. We must allow her to guide and nourish the new. We need to work. I believe this is our main dividing line, for hundreds of thousands of years.
Our society needs to give men a chance. We need a decent and safe neighborhood, schools, jobs, medical care, transportation, housing, etc. Yes, men and women need this, of course, But, men, when their woman is with child, need these things even more, because bringing life into the world, but not being able to 'provide' for it and it's mother, leaves a man lost in the wind and ashamed. I know Trump is a self-indulgent billionaire, but most 'men' are not. And many of his followers are men that have been left behind by the 'tech-age'. No one really cares about this. Inequality explodes but nothing is done. What do you think will happen in such times? Of course, many will look for a savior, angry as they are, and looking to blame someone or something else. So, here we are.
What is a 'man'? A 'man' is whatever his society allows him to be: king, slave, citizen.
Men never get pregnant, we never grow a baby inside of us, we never give birth and hold our creation, we never breatfeed, etc. Women are both challenged and blessed by such. We are on a different path.
We need to intensify our focus when our partner or wife gets pregnant and gives birth and nurtures new life. We must allow her to guide and nourish the new. We need to work. I believe this is our main dividing line, for hundreds of thousands of years.
Our society needs to give men a chance. We need a decent and safe neighborhood, schools, jobs, medical care, transportation, housing, etc. Yes, men and women need this, of course, But, men, when their woman is with child, need these things even more, because bringing life into the world, but not being able to 'provide' for it and it's mother, leaves a man lost in the wind and ashamed. I know Trump is a self-indulgent billionaire, but most 'men' are not. And many of his followers are men that have been left behind by the 'tech-age'. No one really cares about this. Inequality explodes but nothing is done. What do you think will happen in such times? Of course, many will look for a savior, angry as they are, and looking to blame someone or something else. So, here we are.
What is a 'man'? A 'man' is whatever his society allows him to be: king, slave, citizen.
2
Liberals claim the Honorable Donald J Trump referred to his daughter as ... " a piece of a$$." That is a lie! Trump merely allowed Howard Stern to do that.
Womansplaining!
Trump is a monster but women shouldn't go too far and start using this to tell men as a whole what to do. Men shouldn't tell women what to do either: abortion, etc.
That's how it works in modern America.
Men and women are diverging for good reasons. Don't conflate trump with men as a whole. He's a priveleged white male with a likely personality disorder. I think men need to figure out a lot of things for themselves going forward. Things are changing and men need to change: but good answers for men need to come from within
Trump is a monster but women shouldn't go too far and start using this to tell men as a whole what to do. Men shouldn't tell women what to do either: abortion, etc.
That's how it works in modern America.
Men and women are diverging for good reasons. Don't conflate trump with men as a whole. He's a priveleged white male with a likely personality disorder. I think men need to figure out a lot of things for themselves going forward. Things are changing and men need to change: but good answers for men need to come from within
3
Well, we can be sure every single thing he does is unwitting, so you're halfway home already.
2
How to be a man in the age of Trump?
That's an easy answer.
Don't be like him.
That's an easy answer.
Don't be like him.
5
Re: Luetten's comment:
What absolute dribble. It is the old fashioned families that support and created the "man" image. Maybe if we had more Gay families or single parent families from the get go, this misogynistic male image would have never been created. It's time to stop blaming the non stereotypical families for the evils created by good old biblical, traditional families.
What absolute dribble. It is the old fashioned families that support and created the "man" image. Maybe if we had more Gay families or single parent families from the get go, this misogynistic male image would have never been created. It's time to stop blaming the non stereotypical families for the evils created by good old biblical, traditional families.
4
I'm not buying this on so many levels. I went through high school, college, etc. and only a very small minority of boys/men behaved this way. I'm hearing the conversations of boys/men and how they degrade women--have you listened to the conversations of young women to hear how they talk about boys/men? Degrading, humiliating, vengeful, resentful, foul-mouthed, coarse, and most troubling of all, self-righteous.
I was sitting on a bus the other day listening to four girls/women talk about their periods, swearing like sailors, a rather chubby Asian man glanced their way and got such foul-mouthed invective, it would make your great-grandmother blush in her grave. And this I hear more often nowadays than the male side of the equation. Feminism, right.
I was sitting on a bus the other day listening to four girls/women talk about their periods, swearing like sailors, a rather chubby Asian man glanced their way and got such foul-mouthed invective, it would make your great-grandmother blush in her grave. And this I hear more often nowadays than the male side of the equation. Feminism, right.
1
"“You know that baseball metaphor for sex?” he asked. “Well, in baseball there’s a winner and a loser. So who is supposed to be the ‘loser’ in sex?”
-----------------
I grew up in India, and when I came here as a teenager, the attitudes of boys here towards women simply astonished me. In my culture if you kissed a girl, the next step was marriage - there could be no other reason why you allowed yourself such a thing. And indeed I proposed to the first girl I kissed - she said yes.
But America was a different world. Instead of the excessively romantic visions from Bollywood, and I saw an America transformed by Henry Miller and his contemptuous attitude towards women (with the one exception of his love Mara). Women to him are not lips, hair, eyes, smiles. They are sex objects. Romance is gone.
And feminism does not like romance any more than Trump does. It is just a form of servitude.
In the Indian movie Lakhshya, an Indian soldier tells his girl friend that he is going into action. "I will wait for you," she says.
"I may not come back."
"Then I will wait for the rest of my life."
That world of total commitment is gone and has been destroyed both by the likes of Trump and by the likes of Betty Friedan.
Let us see what wonderful world awaits us all...
-----------------
I grew up in India, and when I came here as a teenager, the attitudes of boys here towards women simply astonished me. In my culture if you kissed a girl, the next step was marriage - there could be no other reason why you allowed yourself such a thing. And indeed I proposed to the first girl I kissed - she said yes.
But America was a different world. Instead of the excessively romantic visions from Bollywood, and I saw an America transformed by Henry Miller and his contemptuous attitude towards women (with the one exception of his love Mara). Women to him are not lips, hair, eyes, smiles. They are sex objects. Romance is gone.
And feminism does not like romance any more than Trump does. It is just a form of servitude.
In the Indian movie Lakhshya, an Indian soldier tells his girl friend that he is going into action. "I will wait for you," she says.
"I may not come back."
"Then I will wait for the rest of my life."
That world of total commitment is gone and has been destroyed both by the likes of Trump and by the likes of Betty Friedan.
Let us see what wonderful world awaits us all...
1
No he won't.
This is a nice long list: "news of a high-profile incident of alleged harassment or assault breaks — Robert Chambers; the Spur Posse in Lakewood, Calif.; Glen Ridge, N.J.; Clarence Thomas; William Kennedy Smith; Mike Tyson; Steubenville, Ohio; Bill Cosby; Ray Rice; St. Paul’s; Roger Ailes; Brock Turner."
Yet for the life of me I cannot see why Bill Clinton's name is omitted from this list in the midst of the present national discussion. Liberals ( I include myself as one mostly ) need to wrap their heads around this fact: leaving Bill Clinton out of this discussion drives conservatives absolutely crazy. If you want to further infuriate the 40% of the country that supports Trump, just keep trying to maintain the facade that the future first gentleman is somehow entitled to be spared all the opprobrium we heap on all the other guys in your list.
Yet for the life of me I cannot see why Bill Clinton's name is omitted from this list in the midst of the present national discussion. Liberals ( I include myself as one mostly ) need to wrap their heads around this fact: leaving Bill Clinton out of this discussion drives conservatives absolutely crazy. If you want to further infuriate the 40% of the country that supports Trump, just keep trying to maintain the facade that the future first gentleman is somehow entitled to be spared all the opprobrium we heap on all the other guys in your list.
2
Ms Clinton made a tactical error, or three, by sexualizing the campaign
(1) BJ Clinton (Bubba Jefferson) is the SAME lout as Donald (DT delirum tremens) Trump, but worse; Clinton makes NO gains from 'tawdry Trump'
(2) Timing is off, the issue has peaked, Bill's evil and Hillary's enabling have caught up to 'tawdry Trump,' cf Bill and Juanita
(3) Sexualizing the campaign, in my tiny polling area, is a turn-off, keeps people home, whom Clinton needs, the undecideds, vs Trump, who has his fervent loyalists; tawdry does not hurt him
=
Now to the article
How to be a man? doesn't have much to do with Trump, misogyny, some offer, has made its STRONG presence into the White House, the Obamii hosting the most vile of rapper lyricists and silence towards those they do not praise, thus the stay-homes
How to be a man? Many grew up without Trump and without grope; if/as fighting off boys comes with the territory, ast seems, nothing now will change that; sanctimony and hypocrisy reek
=
Just maybe, if defenders of our wimmin-folk were not so patently political and dishonest, we have a start
A 4th error, is silence on the real War on Women, inside Islam, whence Hillary gets mega bucks; Hillary's enabling of THAT monstrosity, Islam on women, is the same as hers of her husband, but globally bigger and worse
= =
THAT is Donald's punch line, if he gets his counter-puncher swing back, maybe not, thrown off his stride by grandma Clinton, we thought him better, not so tough after all
(1) BJ Clinton (Bubba Jefferson) is the SAME lout as Donald (DT delirum tremens) Trump, but worse; Clinton makes NO gains from 'tawdry Trump'
(2) Timing is off, the issue has peaked, Bill's evil and Hillary's enabling have caught up to 'tawdry Trump,' cf Bill and Juanita
(3) Sexualizing the campaign, in my tiny polling area, is a turn-off, keeps people home, whom Clinton needs, the undecideds, vs Trump, who has his fervent loyalists; tawdry does not hurt him
=
Now to the article
How to be a man? doesn't have much to do with Trump, misogyny, some offer, has made its STRONG presence into the White House, the Obamii hosting the most vile of rapper lyricists and silence towards those they do not praise, thus the stay-homes
How to be a man? Many grew up without Trump and without grope; if/as fighting off boys comes with the territory, ast seems, nothing now will change that; sanctimony and hypocrisy reek
=
Just maybe, if defenders of our wimmin-folk were not so patently political and dishonest, we have a start
A 4th error, is silence on the real War on Women, inside Islam, whence Hillary gets mega bucks; Hillary's enabling of THAT monstrosity, Islam on women, is the same as hers of her husband, but globally bigger and worse
= =
THAT is Donald's punch line, if he gets his counter-puncher swing back, maybe not, thrown off his stride by grandma Clinton, we thought him better, not so tough after all
1
The future is there for all of us to make good decisions. Thanks. Peggy Orenstein, to set the table.
1
To be accurate about what Trump is and how he behaves it is important to listen to what he said on the bus for motive or explanation. Trump believes that because he is rich and famous he has a LICENSE to kiss, touch, grope, or fondle women without consent. This sense of deluded entitlement makes him an especially poor choice for President.
2
Excellent piece, Ms. Orenstein -- if I may use a baseball metaphor, you've hit one out of the park.
3
No man in America, except for the halfwits among us like Mr. Trump and Mr. Bush, needs special instruction on the matter of how to treat women decently. The rule is simple. Women should be treated in the same way that men would want their own grandmothers, mothers, sisters and daughters to be treated by other men. For men like Mr. Trump and Mr. Bush, sterner measures like incarceration on a diet of bread and water may need to be considered.
2
Looking at Mr. Trump and imagining myself to be his attorney, my plan would be to tell the jury that he searched everywhere in the contiguous 48 states, Alaska and Hawaii for a woman who was willing to kiss him, and not finding a single one, was forced to adopt more aggressive measures.
4
America's "there's a winner and a loser" mentality creates so much pain for its citizens, with its simplistic assumptions that the world is so black-and-white as just "winning" and "losing" and that everything - everything - in life must be seen through this ill-fated lens.
Those of us who have enjoyed a marriage, or a relationship, of equality know that the rewards *for men* as well as for women are far greater than those offered by chest-thumping old-school testosterone-based treatment of women.
How exciting it is when you do not feel the need to force yourself upon a woman, because she actually wants *you* - infinitely better than grabbing what you can because no woman sees value in who you are...make yourself worthy - it's more work, but provides a richer life for all concerned.
Those of us who have enjoyed a marriage, or a relationship, of equality know that the rewards *for men* as well as for women are far greater than those offered by chest-thumping old-school testosterone-based treatment of women.
How exciting it is when you do not feel the need to force yourself upon a woman, because she actually wants *you* - infinitely better than grabbing what you can because no woman sees value in who you are...make yourself worthy - it's more work, but provides a richer life for all concerned.
1
Ms. Orenstein has met the new low in journalism espoused by the NY Times. Report unsubstantiated allegations as fact and then assassinate the character of an otherwise law abiding citizen (Mr. Trump). It's time to retire this play book.
Why bother telling others that one of "the alleged stories" has already been debunked. Furthermore, what took the mainstream news media (Alt-Left) and the Democrat Party so long to engage the services of Gloria Allred, Esq.?
While all of this prurience sucked the oxygen out of the room, Alt-Left is (deliberately?) ignoring the horrors identified by wiki-leaks. The corruption and dishonesty of the Clintons is on full display with these disclosures. In effect, we have Stalin II, the re-writing of history. And the lay American citizen has no idea that this is happening.
If the NY Times had any journalistic integrity, then there would have been a companion piece that (where warranted) would repudiate Ms. Orenstein's bile.
Why bother telling others that one of "the alleged stories" has already been debunked. Furthermore, what took the mainstream news media (Alt-Left) and the Democrat Party so long to engage the services of Gloria Allred, Esq.?
While all of this prurience sucked the oxygen out of the room, Alt-Left is (deliberately?) ignoring the horrors identified by wiki-leaks. The corruption and dishonesty of the Clintons is on full display with these disclosures. In effect, we have Stalin II, the re-writing of history. And the lay American citizen has no idea that this is happening.
If the NY Times had any journalistic integrity, then there would have been a companion piece that (where warranted) would repudiate Ms. Orenstein's bile.
1
I fail to understand something, you, NYT, are chastising bad behavior against women while at the same time you are for more immigrants from countries where women are treated like objects, have no say and no rights?
1
I'm angered by Trump throwing his gender under the bus.
2
It's up to the woman voter to bring us sanity, AGAIN! This election is about women's rights more than any other policy or issue.
3
Republican women are self-hating. They love Donald Trump.
4
"Certainly, such behavior is not representative of men, not by a long shot." So why beat a dead horse?
3
This is what has frustrated me about people saying that Donald Trumps comments weren't "locker room talk." These conversations are happening, perhaps not as aggressively as Donnie speaks, but they are happening. They are what creates the pressure for boys to have a lot of sex, and they are what creates the behavior of drunken grabbing, fondling, or worse.
I wish people realized feminism is about getting rid of conventional ideas of both masculinity and femininity; about allowing girls to have as much or as little sex as they like, and allowing boys to have as much or as little sex as they like. Allowing girls to be powerful career women, or stay home with kids; and allowing boys to rise to the top or stay home with kids. It's about being a person based off of who you are instead of the genitals you were born with.
I wish people realized feminism is about getting rid of conventional ideas of both masculinity and femininity; about allowing girls to have as much or as little sex as they like, and allowing boys to have as much or as little sex as they like. Allowing girls to be powerful career women, or stay home with kids; and allowing boys to rise to the top or stay home with kids. It's about being a person based off of who you are instead of the genitals you were born with.
1
I could never understand the "real man" thing. I am a real man, Obama is a real man, Trump is a real man, every man around me is a real man. Indiana Jones, on the other hand, is not a real man. Neither is Santa Claus or Luke Skywalker.
Therefore, if you are a man, all you need to do "to be a man in the age of Trump" is nothing. And you will be. Exactly the same amount of work it takes a woman to be a woman in the age of Trump. Whatever that means.
Therefore, if you are a man, all you need to do "to be a man in the age of Trump" is nothing. And you will be. Exactly the same amount of work it takes a woman to be a woman in the age of Trump. Whatever that means.
3
Sometimes you need to shake the rug to kill the bugs. That's one of the few positive things about the horror that is trump. The trump debacle, including his birtherism and sexism and other forms of bigotry, will accelerate the cause of racial and gender equality, over time, by laying it bare. In this perverse way, we owe him a debt.
4
Excellent piece, Ms. Orenstein.
3
If I was that high school boy's teacher, I would have told him, "Ask your parents that question. Ask your mom if she thinks of herself as a loser." Conservatives seem to think that sex education should be taught at home, so son, ask your mom if she's a loser.
3
One of the things the martial arts school, that I went to growing up, did as a "community service" was to offer self defense classes for women. Borrowing techniques from judo, aikido, and karate (Kyokushin) that could be used against men in all situations.
As the "aggressors" the boys had to wear heavy protective gear for practices because in Kyokusin you land your kicks and punches. The training had to be realistic, meaning girls and women had to know exactly how to hit; which is basically, "as hard as you can".
The first thing it teaches is confidence and caution in the use of force, how to avoid escalation, and how to decisively end a conflict.
Seeing this first hand, when we did in-school demos, a lot of boys walked out of the gym with a better understand of "fun" and "not fun".
If a "Donald Trump" is seated next to you on a flight and puts his hand up your skirt a open hand heel punch upward just under the jaw will minimally disturb adjacent passengers and maximally disturb Mr Trump. It takes one second, and won't even knock over the drinks on the seat back tray.
As the "aggressors" the boys had to wear heavy protective gear for practices because in Kyokusin you land your kicks and punches. The training had to be realistic, meaning girls and women had to know exactly how to hit; which is basically, "as hard as you can".
The first thing it teaches is confidence and caution in the use of force, how to avoid escalation, and how to decisively end a conflict.
Seeing this first hand, when we did in-school demos, a lot of boys walked out of the gym with a better understand of "fun" and "not fun".
If a "Donald Trump" is seated next to you on a flight and puts his hand up your skirt a open hand heel punch upward just under the jaw will minimally disturb adjacent passengers and maximally disturb Mr Trump. It takes one second, and won't even knock over the drinks on the seat back tray.
8
Ahhhh. The words of a typical progressive. An nonsense poorly thought out argument in search of victims.
While you are outraged at Trump, you say nothing about the lyrics and social norms of rap culture. No comment on how black politicians and Democrats support anything that rap stars say and do, but the minute Donald Trump is alleged to do something, its the focus of a new Op-Ed or Editorial in the NYT or some other mainstream media outlet. Even Michelle Obama, that paragon of the Democrats and progressives, loves rap stars, but does not criticize them.
GIVE ME A BREAK. You are a hypocrite along with all that tolerate the words of these people, and more. And worse, you leave girls and women in the unenviable position of defending Bill Clinton and other real sexual predators, with your slanted and biased advice, while blaming the average guy for whatever you deem misogynist, even if it's not.
Another hit piece on DT masquerading as carefully thought out advice when it's nonsense.
While you are outraged at Trump, you say nothing about the lyrics and social norms of rap culture. No comment on how black politicians and Democrats support anything that rap stars say and do, but the minute Donald Trump is alleged to do something, its the focus of a new Op-Ed or Editorial in the NYT or some other mainstream media outlet. Even Michelle Obama, that paragon of the Democrats and progressives, loves rap stars, but does not criticize them.
GIVE ME A BREAK. You are a hypocrite along with all that tolerate the words of these people, and more. And worse, you leave girls and women in the unenviable position of defending Bill Clinton and other real sexual predators, with your slanted and biased advice, while blaming the average guy for whatever you deem misogynist, even if it's not.
Another hit piece on DT masquerading as carefully thought out advice when it's nonsense.
1
My hope is that having our first woman president, with Hillary Clinton, will elevate the discussion. I hope that Pres. Hillary Clinton will encourage women and men everywhere to rise up in society and in the workplace. I hope that this will help to stimulate the economy in a big way.
As Jesse Jackson said in 1988: "Keep hope alive."
One step for (W)oman. One giant leap for (H)umankind.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
As Jesse Jackson said in 1988: "Keep hope alive."
One step for (W)oman. One giant leap for (H)umankind.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
3
An excellent case for mandatory modern sex ed. Regardless of what the christian sharia law right wingers say about it. We have tip toed around this issue now for years. Most all of us including us men have our stories to tell. Thanks to the First Lady we can now take the next couple of steps.
Don't come down too hard on Hillary on this issue. As most of us do, she has her own crosses to bear. See what she does as our President and then judge.
Don't come down too hard on Hillary on this issue. As most of us do, she has her own crosses to bear. See what she does as our President and then judge.
22
What we need to remember is that not only is Trump a misogynist, he's a very sick across the board hater. He insults all -latinos, blacks, veterans, the disabled, muslims, jews, republicans, democrats, ad nauseum. The Donald is a severely disturbed man in denial. As a nation we need to reject what he represents. He is an anathema to all of us. Those who defended and supported this horrible excuse of a man need to be held accountable. There is absolutely no way he should have gotten this far. We don't need or want a neo facist. There is not one shred of decency in him. His vile words offend all of us.
29
Very insightful reporting. We need much much more of this in oder to defang all the other Trumps coming down the chute.
9
Boys and girls need to be taught what it means to be an honorable, dignified person. These are virtues to which everyone should aspire. Sadly, virtue has been defenestrated by the pornification of society to which Donald Trump is mighty contributor.
14
My husband and I think Trump is a horrible aberration. Men who grow up with nice mothers, grow up liking women, grow up into secure, mature humans don't act like he does. And it's not just the sexual assault stuff, it's the whole package: It includes the coercion, bribing, intimidation, etc. in his business dealings. He's a phenomenon all right. A train wreck of a human being. We are aghast that he's a major party nominee. For us, the discussion isn't "how to be a man in the age of Trump" it's "what country do we move to if he wins?"
12
Trump may be a lout but he certainly does not carry himself as a rapist nor are any the allegations analogous to rape. Furthermore, many men, quite frankly, do not believe the accusers and find it oddly suspicious the "victims" all would appear at the ebb of the election. These women seem bitter and come off as actresses. They want to stop a macho male figure from entering the White House. Sadly for them, it will not happen.
1
Women are probably just as guilty as men when it comes to sexual harassment, especially in the workplace. They just do it differently, in ways that we are all familiar with.
4
Imagine the outrage if a male writer had published a piece called, "How to Be a Woman".
Do Muslims - except for the good ones - have a tendency to be terrorists? Do African-Americans - except for the good ones - tend to commit violent crimes? Are Jews - except for the good ones - likely to be financial manipulators?
No decent person (sit down, Donald) would make those awful generalizations. Yet as men we all now stand guilty until proven innocent in the screeds of the feminist literati. Trump and his fellow creeps are unacceptable and unforgivable. But to use their disgusting behavior as an excuse to lecture every man and boy about how to rid himself of original sin is simply bullying, and no less obnoxious just because the tables are turned.
Modern women have rightly claimed the right to define themselves, free of male paternalism and patronization. Men deserve no less.
Do Muslims - except for the good ones - have a tendency to be terrorists? Do African-Americans - except for the good ones - tend to commit violent crimes? Are Jews - except for the good ones - likely to be financial manipulators?
No decent person (sit down, Donald) would make those awful generalizations. Yet as men we all now stand guilty until proven innocent in the screeds of the feminist literati. Trump and his fellow creeps are unacceptable and unforgivable. But to use their disgusting behavior as an excuse to lecture every man and boy about how to rid himself of original sin is simply bullying, and no less obnoxious just because the tables are turned.
Modern women have rightly claimed the right to define themselves, free of male paternalism and patronization. Men deserve no less.
38
Lots of young men want to be part of the conversation about making the world a more fair an equal place for everyone. However, it's hard for us to be a part of the conversation when all men are lumped together with the worst of us.
15
It is never all right to force oneself on another human being. Ever. How is it possible to misunderstand this? It is never all right to use another human being for ones own purposes. Ever. Surely this is something that can be taught? Or is the problem that there are members of society who imagine that they are allowed to determine who is or is not a 'human being'?
13
Our sexual mores have been changing but sexual assault never was and never will be acceptable behavior for men, only for sexual predators with serious emotional problems.
12
My children will never fall prey to these dangers. My mother was the first female in her family's long history who attended college. She ended up with a Bachelors in Journalism, a Masters in Library Science, and a PHD in Research History.
My parents were extremely well educated, and surprisingly progressive for the 50's and 60's. They both taught me that women are just as intelligent, just as hard working, and probably more emotionally resilient than men. They also taught me that you judge another person based only on WHO they are, never WHAT they are.
I judge Hillary based on what I've known of her for 25 years. I do the same for Donald. They both have virtues and they both have faults, but there is nothing resembling any balance between them. One is a flawed human being with decades of government experience. The other is a noisy, narcissistic child who couldn't possibly explain the Constitution to 10yr-olds, much less the Bill of Rights.
My parents were extremely well educated, and surprisingly progressive for the 50's and 60's. They both taught me that women are just as intelligent, just as hard working, and probably more emotionally resilient than men. They also taught me that you judge another person based only on WHO they are, never WHAT they are.
I judge Hillary based on what I've known of her for 25 years. I do the same for Donald. They both have virtues and they both have faults, but there is nothing resembling any balance between them. One is a flawed human being with decades of government experience. The other is a noisy, narcissistic child who couldn't possibly explain the Constitution to 10yr-olds, much less the Bill of Rights.
73
If you're unsure how to relate to women, then let them guide the pace of any communication, professional or otherwise. I think men run into problems when they feel they have to take action of some sort. Let women lead the way.
4
As a pastor, I am calling on my congregation to think about masculinity and to take the chance to (re)define what it means to be a man-- and to create a counter-conversation to what society has accepted and even endorsed in its treatment of women.
I also have 10 years of history teaching the Our Whole Lives youth sexuality education curriculum to teenagers. (Your article mentions it is published by the Unitarian Universalists, but it is actually jointly published and supported by the UU's AND the United Church of Christ, the denomination to which I am ordained).
As a woman serving as a solo pastor, my voice alone cannot be enough to rally the minds of men and boys in my congregation. But I am grateful to have other men who are willing to speak up for this, including one layman who joined me in a shared sermon last week!
I also have 10 years of history teaching the Our Whole Lives youth sexuality education curriculum to teenagers. (Your article mentions it is published by the Unitarian Universalists, but it is actually jointly published and supported by the UU's AND the United Church of Christ, the denomination to which I am ordained).
As a woman serving as a solo pastor, my voice alone cannot be enough to rally the minds of men and boys in my congregation. But I am grateful to have other men who are willing to speak up for this, including one layman who joined me in a shared sermon last week!
16
No man ever pushed himself on me. But when I was younger i put myself in plenty of positions where they could easily have done worse. Thankfully nothing ever happened.
My husband says this is making him second guess his desire for physical touch as a man. It shouldn't matter what one feels or desires. Lack of consent is the issue.
My husband says this is making him second guess his desire for physical touch as a man. It shouldn't matter what one feels or desires. Lack of consent is the issue.
7
In my teens & early 20's I was part of a punk rock scene in Cincinnati. We didn't like the mainstream culture. We did what we could to avoid it. None of us talked like Trump. Nearly 30 years later we still don't like this lousy culture. So many boys & men turn out to be nasty jerks because both mothers and father buy into a hateful culture that produces millions of Trump-like men. I don't have an answer about why we keep having this terrible treatment of women or why police keep killing people for no reason or why our wages never go up or why Donald Trump is so close to the Presidency. But I do know that any parent of any gender who lets their kids by into the mainstream of this violent, woman hating, immigrant bashing society is giving that kid a poor start in life.
52
a good start would be a father in the home. women and mothers are not really qualified to guide a young mans sex drive. Of course they are confused, they are all being raised by women. " a women needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."
2
Think what you may about abortion but telling a woman what she can do with her own body is the ultimate disrespect for woman. The Republican Party has made controlling a woman's body at the core their political agenda for decades. Groping a woman pales in comparison to dictating what they can and cannot do with their own body and what goes on inside it.
That Mr. Trumps unconscionable behavior toward woman (not to mention all the other groups he has verbally abused) seems to have had only minimal impact on his support is no surprise when you consider those same supporters think its okay to dictate to a woman what happens with her own body.
That Mr. Trumps unconscionable behavior toward woman (not to mention all the other groups he has verbally abused) seems to have had only minimal impact on his support is no surprise when you consider those same supporters think its okay to dictate to a woman what happens with her own body.
93
It’s a good question. How does a man display interest and affection and court and seduce a woman today without being a Trump? I don’t know honestly. Being married I don’t really need an answer, but for sure the question is worth asking what is OK and what is not for gentlemen in search of their soul mate.
35
I hope that if any thing good comes out of this horrible election season, it is an end to allowing "boys to be boys" when it comes to treatment of girls. The boys that take advantage of girls in high school become the men who abuse women as adults. Football coaches and other coaches need to push to stop abuse on high school teams. They can do this by teaching respect for women in language in the locker room, as well as in person.
12
It is important for boys to learn how to deal with girls when they are in their teens. They should learn what kinds of behaviors they shouldn’t do and what kinds of words they shouldn’t use through activities or communications with girls. These experiences in junior high school and high school are essential to make good relationships with females in the future. These experiences are as important as study or sport training for young boys.
4
As others have noted elsewhere, those who object to Trump's statements by referring to "their" daughters, wives, sisters, etc. are exhibiting a proprietary ownership of the women in their lives that is totally inappropriate.
If they only care about "their" women, they miss the point that every woman, and every man, and every child deserves to be respected as a human being, not as a piece of meat to be commented about, fondled, or worse.
If they only care about "their" women, they miss the point that every woman, and every man, and every child deserves to be respected as a human being, not as a piece of meat to be commented about, fondled, or worse.
3
I hope there will be an end now to men treating women as indentured servants or slaves but look at all the women who see abuse as attractive and support an abusive hate monger for president. There are plenty of bad apples who are women in this ugly tragedy starting with his super high paid female spokeswomen cashing in on the hate brigade.
1
Thank you for this. It is essential that men stand up and address the peculiar indoctrination we receive, in the media, from peers, and from the culture at large. We need to listen, listen, listen and learn. Every man should be a feminist - not just because it is the morally right thing to do, but for the simple reason that ensuring the rights, the respect, and the dignity of others helps to ensure the same for ourselves. It is enlightened self-interest at its best. Whether this be for women or for any that we see as "other" - we need to see the other as the self, and stand up for the dignity of all.
2
Peggy Orenstein cites a few good examples of classes and videos on sexuality. The behavior she describes of young men at a college party is partly due to a lack of these classes in schools. Classes like these have become popular because of stories in the news which she lists. A little while ago stories about bullying inspired calls for classes on that subject. What is missing in our schools is a complete K-12 curriculum in morality. We teach our kids Math, Science, English and History, but we don't teach them the basics of how to live. For kids and adults to practice ethical behavior, they need to be taught what it is.
1
Every time I read pieces like this, it really makes my blood boil. It always fails to take into account the fact that women can sexualize men and talk in the same way and the fact more often than not, whether or not something constitutes sexual harassment depends on whether or not the guy in question is deemed attractive. In a culture where the man is expected to make the first move, if he fails, it's pretty natural. But all too often, and I see this having been on campus for four years, if she isn't interested the guy in question is a "creep." If he's ugly, he's a creep. If he's attractive, it's romantic. Now sexual assaults certainly are an issue, but this has become ridiculous and everyone is acting hypersensitive. Tell me- is anyone being physically harmed if guys are discussing women in sexual terms amongst themselves? Why is it ok for women to gossip about men then? It's part of life. I can't condone the lives of frat boys, but I can't condone this hypersensitivity either. You're not degrading women if you simply say, "she's attractive."
5
As I read this, it occurs to me that we are allowing bullies to rule the day. The situation for men and women confronted with one of these odious types like Donald Trump is to just say NO! Even if they have to shout it. Even if they have to kick and bite and scream and most importantly embarrass.
This festers and bleeds because we cower in fear. Men and women alike need to take a stand on this issue and shout down the crude primitive elements of society.
This festers and bleeds because we cower in fear. Men and women alike need to take a stand on this issue and shout down the crude primitive elements of society.
1
Whatever happened to the issues and needs of the people of the United States?
Many of us are sick and tired of sex talk. We still have three plus weeks left.
We already know Trump's a jerk and unfit. Many of us don't care about the sexuality of men, any men, famous or not.
I want to know what the candidates are going to do for education, environment, infrastructure, etc. We're letting all Republicans off the hook by concentrating on Donald Trump's twisted obsessions. No, not all men are twisted. Now, can we please move on? That is while we wait for Mike Pence to produce evidence of Trump's innocence at least?
Many of us are sick and tired of sex talk. We still have three plus weeks left.
We already know Trump's a jerk and unfit. Many of us don't care about the sexuality of men, any men, famous or not.
I want to know what the candidates are going to do for education, environment, infrastructure, etc. We're letting all Republicans off the hook by concentrating on Donald Trump's twisted obsessions. No, not all men are twisted. Now, can we please move on? That is while we wait for Mike Pence to produce evidence of Trump's innocence at least?
4
When I taught at-risk (mostly male) high school students, I learned how important it was to address all comments that denigrated young women. I also learned that--in order for it to have any impact-- the conversation needed to be just that: a dialogue versus a diatribe...an exchange wherein the speaker of the offensive comment needed to feel included and enlightened rather than singled-out and villified. I would proceed with the assumption that the speaker did not realize how offensive and damaging his words were, and that he was above using such base language.
4
The Boys on the Bus video exposed misogyny for what it is. A person's reaction to it tells you a lot about that person. Any person running for office who still supports Trump after seeing that video is just beyond the pale. I hope they never get a date or a vote ever again. Women have been forced to tolerate that kind of language and behavior since forever (ask any woman who ever worked on a Wall Street trading floor). What's hilarious is men who think women like the 'alpha male' approach - and that's how the Trumpsters are trying to play this thing. Specifics are a matter of taste, but most heterosexual women like men who have the emotional strength to treat women as their equals. Chivalry is also good if it's done well. Cary Grant, please, not a gorilla. Most amusing is the obvious cluelessless of the Boys on the Bus to how women might see them. These characters who thought they were such a catch, because of their money or their fame. Women are looking at that video a number of times. First, they cry. Then they laugh. Then they vote.
12
It wasn't so long ago (1989) that an extremely popular film written by a woman ("When Harry Met Sally") made a very strong case that men and women can't be friends because "the sex thing always gets in the way." I wonder if things have changed all that much since then.
The NYT printing this stuff is bordering on irresponsible. Michael Kimmel is a joke who finds the most tortured boys/men he can find and projects their misery on all of society. As Michelle Obama and many of the victims who have come forward have said, this country is filled with good men who treat women with decency. Perhaps, rather than pathologizing every unhappy male, researchers should speak to some of the decent and get a fuller sense of the story. Yes, Trump's behavior is awful (and, illegal) and should in no way be modeled, but attempts to project this into some overly general theory of masculinity are ridiculous.
4
Depending on which poll you reference, Trump enjoys the support of about 81% of Republican women at this moment. Amazing. And depressing...
The foremost social bonding and identification of these Republican women is clearly not with their own gender, but with a social network where being manipulated by men, and manipulating them in turn, is an accepted form of social advancement. The exploitation is mutual, and until this dynamic is addressed in full we are only shadow boxing around the issue.
The foremost social bonding and identification of these Republican women is clearly not with their own gender, but with a social network where being manipulated by men, and manipulating them in turn, is an accepted form of social advancement. The exploitation is mutual, and until this dynamic is addressed in full we are only shadow boxing around the issue.
6
How to be a man? The premise that you can choose to be a man is flawed. The admirable qualities associated with men develop over the course of childhood and early adulthood.
And if you're really concerned about the objectification of women then maybe the culture that produces rap music should be called to question, given the extent of its influence in our society. Terms that were too crude and misogynist forty years ago are in common usage today. This whole issue - at this particular time - is clearly a red herring in order to prevent a non-establishment candidate from getting elected.
And if you're really concerned about the objectification of women then maybe the culture that produces rap music should be called to question, given the extent of its influence in our society. Terms that were too crude and misogynist forty years ago are in common usage today. This whole issue - at this particular time - is clearly a red herring in order to prevent a non-establishment candidate from getting elected.
4
It's interesting how those with the privilege (i.e. men, whites) expect those without it to make all the changes--to be totally responsible for the problem--as if the victims are culpable. Many seem unable to see their role in causing the problem and even the negatives effects on their own souls caused by mistreating others.
3
Thank you for this. A key chain mponent of our endemic misogyny is the increasingly twisted idea our society has about masculinity. Concepts of restraint, self-discipline, sacrifice, and modesty hav been supplanted over the last few decades by a horrid aspirational ideal of crudity, ignorance, anger, violence, slovenliness, inarticulateness, and emotional stuntedness.
It has been alarming and depressing.
It has been alarming and depressing.
2
The year when two historical forces collide. Women achievement and progress vs. male dominance and misogyny. Hillary Clinton, first female presidental nominee, super achievement and phenomenal experience for a president; and Donald Trump, misogynist, bragging about his sexual prowess, thinking it is his due and beyond challenge.
8
Well I never! I never pushed myself on women who didn't want me. I never engaged in such reprehensible behavior as "grinding" although as teenagers we did close dance "The Fish." Even 'though we are close in age, I never engaged in talk as crude as Donald Trump's. But then I had a totally different upbringing than he. I made some missteps in dating, mainly by going out with women who didn't suit me, or vice versa. May I add I am 73 and have been married to my beautiful wife for 41 years. And that is where true satisfaction and happiness lie.
3
Of course the most frightening thing to me and so many others is that there are SOOO many people that are not only, "yea, I'm OK with what he said" but also feel these are appropriate words for The President Of the United States. This group includes the many people attending his campaign events but also a disappointingly large number of Senior Republican leaders and their supporters as well. At some point we need to examine this larger acceptance and thereby, presumably agreement of Trump, his positions and statements by so many Americans.
7
What isn't mentioned is the very real experience of struggling as an adolescent male with an awakening gay identity in a culture that still expects masculine macho stereotypes to hold sway, adding another layer of complexity to the long overdue conversation we're now having... Women are finally coming out of a different kind of closet, one they've suffered in silently for far too long.
3
How did we get to this place? Because our culture says the man is the initiator. It also says that a woman who reciprocates too readily is a slut.
It stands to reason that young people will make miscalculations along the way. It might diminish the anxiety if our culture freed itself from these preconceptions.
It stands to reason that young people will make miscalculations along the way. It might diminish the anxiety if our culture freed itself from these preconceptions.
4
Denigrating and humiliating women is not unique to US. In most of India, women and young girls traveling on public transit can expect catcalls, snide remarks and even groping. Most develop techniques on preventing groping (such as sticking out the elbow at interesting angles). One friend, when groped on a New Delhi bus, hit the groper on the nose and blood gushed out. The bystanders (all men) accused the then 16-year old of overreacting.
I am amazed at the number of men with daughters who think that this is all just harmless showboating.
I am amazed at the number of men with daughters who think that this is all just harmless showboating.
28
If only a majority of Republican leaders would've disavowed Trump after the disgusting events of the past week, we might feel a sense of victory. But it's estimated that more than 70% of GOP leaders are sticking with him out of fear, personal greed, or party loyalty. And those who have spoken out against him have cited concern for their mothers, wives and daughters. What about the women they don't know? Don't we deserve to be treated with dignity and equality?
It's been a banner week for women in that we can now see how much further we need to go to achieve the respect we richly deserve. Bringing the conversation into the headlines is a good start indeed.
It's been a banner week for women in that we can now see how much further we need to go to achieve the respect we richly deserve. Bringing the conversation into the headlines is a good start indeed.
23
Seeing Trump and his frothing supporters at his rallies, it's clear now that his war on political correctness would extend to basic human dignity as well. With the likes of ex-Fox News head, and fellow womanizer, Roger Ailes egging him on, making America great again would mean rolling back decades of progress across the spectrum from international relations, to minority rights, healthcare, LGBQT equality, abortion, and so on. Indeed, with his attacks on the press, threatening lawsuits when the truth about him is reported, Trump would challenge rights all the way back to the Constitution. With its effect on children, the cataclysm of a Trump win could easily take decades to repair.
14
The confusion is on both sides. What is it to be a woman? What is it to be a man? And maybe the better question is, what is it to be a human in a civilized world? Are we an active participant? Do we think of ourselves first, others first? Is it supposed to be win-win or winner take all?
If using sports analogies, what does it mean to "play fair?" What does it mean to work fairly, live fairly, pay fairly?
It's wonderful that schools are trying to offer this socialization, but unless it touches on all these other aspects not sure it will make much difference.
Treating each other fairly and with
If using sports analogies, what does it mean to "play fair?" What does it mean to work fairly, live fairly, pay fairly?
It's wonderful that schools are trying to offer this socialization, but unless it touches on all these other aspects not sure it will make much difference.
Treating each other fairly and with
4
As disgusting as Trump's comments are, I think it goes deeper than that. We as a society have lost a sense of manners. I'm not talking about tea doily manners, I'm talking how to treat people with common (or not so common, now) decency when you meet them, when you deal with business partners, when you go on a date. I'm talking about the idea that people have value in and of themselves and deserve respect at a result, no matter what their or your, station in life.
Manners are the oil that smooths the machinery of life and makes interaction possible, knowing that there are certain ground rules that both sides will follow. Once a relationship is established, then the parties my decide to relax the rules, but beginnings are a chancy and critical time and having a commonly understood set of rules on how the beginning of a relationship, any relationship, plays out will make life easier on all. We have lost that in the last couple of decades and need to rebuild the ideas of manners.
If we had those rules, those manners, then something like Trump describes or Bill Clinton's actions of a couple of decades ago, would have never happened and we all would be much better off as a result.
Manners are the oil that smooths the machinery of life and makes interaction possible, knowing that there are certain ground rules that both sides will follow. Once a relationship is established, then the parties my decide to relax the rules, but beginnings are a chancy and critical time and having a commonly understood set of rules on how the beginning of a relationship, any relationship, plays out will make life easier on all. We have lost that in the last couple of decades and need to rebuild the ideas of manners.
If we had those rules, those manners, then something like Trump describes or Bill Clinton's actions of a couple of decades ago, would have never happened and we all would be much better off as a result.
45
President Obama deserves credit for the model he is showing males and females alike. He is proud of his smart, independent wife; he explicitly wants his daughters to be treated equally; he acts with decency and dignity in the face of bullying; and he shows that respecting, instead of vilifying, LBGT individuals is a sign of strength.
Trump exemplifies the worst behavior, while our current President exemplifies the best.
Trump exemplifies the worst behavior, while our current President exemplifies the best.
9
~
Even the strongest of the Greek Gods knew not to mess with the little boy-god Eros and his dam arrows. Eros has a job to do (i.e., fertilize eggs) and by god he is going to get it done one way or another. And everything else is secondary or even further down the chain of life. He has very limited time over target, so he's a numbers guy. Eros used to have to battle with sickness, the plague etc. Now he has to deal with condoms, age restrictions, ED, birth control pills, two child policies, homosexuality, people like me that caught on to his game etc. But the population curve proves his mastery and efficiency and that man is a bio-puppet, free will an illusion
“In no other case does Eros so clearly betray the core of his being, his purpose of making many out of one; but when he has achieved this in the proverbial way through the love of two human beings, he refuses to go further."
Sigmund Freud, 1939
Please stop being so surprised, one cannot possibly be this naive about this munching world. And please the animal kingdom is far worse, for all you nature lovers. Freud's final instinct theory ( Eros (life) and death) is a borderland concept, that is, it's the boundary between animal and man. In other words, Man did not rid himself of his creatureliness with nature's only leap
Schopenhauer called this the Will, the thing in itself, the only unchanging force, the noumenal that drives all the fleeting appearances in this world
But good luck with the fly swatting.
Even the strongest of the Greek Gods knew not to mess with the little boy-god Eros and his dam arrows. Eros has a job to do (i.e., fertilize eggs) and by god he is going to get it done one way or another. And everything else is secondary or even further down the chain of life. He has very limited time over target, so he's a numbers guy. Eros used to have to battle with sickness, the plague etc. Now he has to deal with condoms, age restrictions, ED, birth control pills, two child policies, homosexuality, people like me that caught on to his game etc. But the population curve proves his mastery and efficiency and that man is a bio-puppet, free will an illusion
“In no other case does Eros so clearly betray the core of his being, his purpose of making many out of one; but when he has achieved this in the proverbial way through the love of two human beings, he refuses to go further."
Sigmund Freud, 1939
Please stop being so surprised, one cannot possibly be this naive about this munching world. And please the animal kingdom is far worse, for all you nature lovers. Freud's final instinct theory ( Eros (life) and death) is a borderland concept, that is, it's the boundary between animal and man. In other words, Man did not rid himself of his creatureliness with nature's only leap
Schopenhauer called this the Will, the thing in itself, the only unchanging force, the noumenal that drives all the fleeting appearances in this world
But good luck with the fly swatting.
4
As I cast my mind back over the last 46 years, basically beginning with remembered consciousness, I have been struck by the difference between my confident primary school self and the shell shocked woman I became. When a girl, my self confidence was boundless. I could think of nothing I could not do.
Social "progression" came first in the form of interruptions. Often, when being interrupted I was accused of interrupting. I was surprised, hurt, angry. My thoughts were as important and worthy of being heard as this person speaking right over me and berating me for speaking at all. Silence. The first step.
The second step came with puberty and the lingering glances and hands of men. Silence was expected then too. I'm not very good at silent. When a man grabbed my leg at a party in college and commented that I had shaved so must "want it," I responded "I didn't give you permission to touch me." I had drawn myself up to my full 5'4" height, eyebrows raised.
I'm kinda like Hillary. I am heterosexual but do not accept degradation at the lingering hands of strange men. So I am that bitch Trump's followers refer to when they scream "Trump That Bitch" or emblazon it on cheap clothing. The one accused of being a lesbian. Rarely does a man approach me without clear positive signals from me because the eyebrows shoot up and I put on my "bitch face," the one Jessica Williams from the Daily Show immortalized in her clever NYC women's fun work commute sketch.
Social "progression" came first in the form of interruptions. Often, when being interrupted I was accused of interrupting. I was surprised, hurt, angry. My thoughts were as important and worthy of being heard as this person speaking right over me and berating me for speaking at all. Silence. The first step.
The second step came with puberty and the lingering glances and hands of men. Silence was expected then too. I'm not very good at silent. When a man grabbed my leg at a party in college and commented that I had shaved so must "want it," I responded "I didn't give you permission to touch me." I had drawn myself up to my full 5'4" height, eyebrows raised.
I'm kinda like Hillary. I am heterosexual but do not accept degradation at the lingering hands of strange men. So I am that bitch Trump's followers refer to when they scream "Trump That Bitch" or emblazon it on cheap clothing. The one accused of being a lesbian. Rarely does a man approach me without clear positive signals from me because the eyebrows shoot up and I put on my "bitch face," the one Jessica Williams from the Daily Show immortalized in her clever NYC women's fun work commute sketch.
2
As awful as Trump's comments were, not for a minute did I find them surprising. Are there any of us women who make it to age 18 without being touched inappropriately or against our consent?
Every year we hear of another man in power taking advantage of women sexually. And reporting it is still more dangerous than staying silent. So really, my fellow women, are you shocked?
I think Donald would be a horrific President, and I am voting for Hillary. But I'm not under the delusion that the male democrats I'm voting for treat the women they encounter any better than Trump does. That they give support to causes that positively effect women- that is all I hope from them.
As for individual behavior towards actual women- I don't trust any one of them, except maybe Jimmy Carter. Maybe.
Every year we hear of another man in power taking advantage of women sexually. And reporting it is still more dangerous than staying silent. So really, my fellow women, are you shocked?
I think Donald would be a horrific President, and I am voting for Hillary. But I'm not under the delusion that the male democrats I'm voting for treat the women they encounter any better than Trump does. That they give support to causes that positively effect women- that is all I hope from them.
As for individual behavior towards actual women- I don't trust any one of them, except maybe Jimmy Carter. Maybe.
4
It seems to boil down to peer pressure, with the one most forceful bullying personality in the group tending to stand out for going lowest - a young Trump, for example, at the center of his peer group.
Peer pressure of both genders applies to sex, drugs, drinking, violence, etc. with teenagers most vulnerable to not wanting to be left out or ostracized by others.
Education in school to empower teenagers to withstand or redirect peer pressure in a more positive direction is in order here along with the California "lessons on sexual consent."
Unfortunately, it appears to be too late for Trump, who never grew up - having relied on his wealth to insulate and avoid the consequences of his actions. Now we find millions of his new "peers" - and base of support - putting pressure on the bully at the top of the GOP ticket by other peer bullies - Alex Jones - and sexual predators - Roger Ailes - giving their push for Trump to go further. Trump is happy to oblige them.
Peer pressure of both genders applies to sex, drugs, drinking, violence, etc. with teenagers most vulnerable to not wanting to be left out or ostracized by others.
Education in school to empower teenagers to withstand or redirect peer pressure in a more positive direction is in order here along with the California "lessons on sexual consent."
Unfortunately, it appears to be too late for Trump, who never grew up - having relied on his wealth to insulate and avoid the consequences of his actions. Now we find millions of his new "peers" - and base of support - putting pressure on the bully at the top of the GOP ticket by other peer bullies - Alex Jones - and sexual predators - Roger Ailes - giving their push for Trump to go further. Trump is happy to oblige them.
3
People will blame the Republican party for Donald's coarseness, but we can't blame the Republican party for the coarseness of our entire culture. In truth both parties, and people on both sides of the aisle, have created the existence of a candidate like the Donald, and have made our culture -- and our modern conception of masculinity -- what it is. In fact, if anything, liberals have had the biggest role in creating this phenomenon. It was liberals who pushed for greater personal freedom, even at the expense of traditional morals -- the end to barriers on pornography, on swearing in the media. on premarital sex and divorce being shamed, etc. It was liberals who pushed for the freedom to be just as coarse as we wanted to be -- no more prudish rules! It was liberals who dismantled the old conception of masculinity as virtue and character, choosing to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
As it turns out, when you strip away the old rules of decorum, the old standards of masculinity as honor, people in general, and men in particular, default to the lowest common denominator. It's not "them" who have sullied our culture and created men like Trump. All of us -- liberal and conservative alike -- who say we want greater character for OTHER people, but don't want anyone telling US what to do, we've all created Trump and coarsened our culture.
As it turns out, when you strip away the old rules of decorum, the old standards of masculinity as honor, people in general, and men in particular, default to the lowest common denominator. It's not "them" who have sullied our culture and created men like Trump. All of us -- liberal and conservative alike -- who say we want greater character for OTHER people, but don't want anyone telling US what to do, we've all created Trump and coarsened our culture.
1
Men never should encourage behavior that is leaning towards sexual assault nor should they degrade women in public. This article likes to take the most innocent of musicals and say "did she put up a fight" is a form of a man forcing himself on a women. Same with making references to Meatloaf "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" about stolen bases. Both Grease and Meatloaf do not show unwilling women being raped. Both do not describe sexual assault at all, but enlighten us to our basic biology. Men have much less to lose when it comes to sex than women do. After all, women get pregnant and men can walk away from responsibility. Most do not end like the Meatloaf song with marriage 'til the end of time.
What makes Donald Trump so disgusting is he calls out women on looks in a public fashion and degrades/humiliates them. He doesn't do it off camera. Just look at his spats with Rosie O'Donald, Ted Cruz's wife and the lady who accused him of assaulting her. He also seems to have a history of forcing himself on women which I don't think most men/women have.
The best piece of advice to give is there is no winner/loser in sex. Sex is to be pleasurable for both. Its a consensual decision between partners. Don't start dry-humping a women in the middle of a dance floor unless your partner is willing. Sober 'affirmative consent' is ideal, but in college reality use your own judgement. Don't have sex if you or your partner is too drunk to remember or is passed out or says no at any point.
What makes Donald Trump so disgusting is he calls out women on looks in a public fashion and degrades/humiliates them. He doesn't do it off camera. Just look at his spats with Rosie O'Donald, Ted Cruz's wife and the lady who accused him of assaulting her. He also seems to have a history of forcing himself on women which I don't think most men/women have.
The best piece of advice to give is there is no winner/loser in sex. Sex is to be pleasurable for both. Its a consensual decision between partners. Don't start dry-humping a women in the middle of a dance floor unless your partner is willing. Sober 'affirmative consent' is ideal, but in college reality use your own judgement. Don't have sex if you or your partner is too drunk to remember or is passed out or says no at any point.
1
In my experience, young women are just as likely to use objectifying and degrading speech about men when they are among other women. And other women don't speak up when it happens. The difference is that people assume that men are going to act out their speech and women aren't. There's been a lot of talk about this, but I've yet to see any evidence of it or science behind it.
One of the reasons young boys don't get good role modeling and guidance is that there are virtually no men left in their schools. They were driven out over hysterical fears that male teachers are potential abusers and molesters. Parents don't like the idea of men left alone with their children. Painting masculinity as something to be feared and in need of societal re-engineering has consequences and creates a cycle. We're living it now. Let's stop this fear mongering about "epidemics" and "rape culture" and anecdotal opinion pieces like this one and get on with an adult, fact-based discussion of what would make the world a better place for girls AND boys. I'm not sure we're really having that discussion yet. The discussion we always seem to be having is about how boys are defective. They hear you and they feel it and some are acting it out.
Where locker room talk pertains to Trump, I do see a difference. It's another sign, along with his knee-jerk vindictiveness, of a terribly immature and entitled person. Most of us outgrow this type of behavior early on, but Trump never has. That's worrying.
One of the reasons young boys don't get good role modeling and guidance is that there are virtually no men left in their schools. They were driven out over hysterical fears that male teachers are potential abusers and molesters. Parents don't like the idea of men left alone with their children. Painting masculinity as something to be feared and in need of societal re-engineering has consequences and creates a cycle. We're living it now. Let's stop this fear mongering about "epidemics" and "rape culture" and anecdotal opinion pieces like this one and get on with an adult, fact-based discussion of what would make the world a better place for girls AND boys. I'm not sure we're really having that discussion yet. The discussion we always seem to be having is about how boys are defective. They hear you and they feel it and some are acting it out.
Where locker room talk pertains to Trump, I do see a difference. It's another sign, along with his knee-jerk vindictiveness, of a terribly immature and entitled person. Most of us outgrow this type of behavior early on, but Trump never has. That's worrying.
2
Lust is one of the essences of the human male condition. Understanding that reality and learning to control it is the essence of maturity. A mature man knows that to see an attractive woman nude, inadvertently, and be aroused is neither crime nor sin, and he takes a breath and a moment and goes on with the business of life. To act on that arousal or, worse, to actively seek it, is a completely different beast.
A mature man does not assume that every woman he meets, regardless of his opinion of her on some Trumpian scale of measurement, is interested primarily in charming his one-eyed trouser snake.
This is what separates real men from Trumps.
A mature man does not assume that every woman he meets, regardless of his opinion of her on some Trumpian scale of measurement, is interested primarily in charming his one-eyed trouser snake.
This is what separates real men from Trumps.
1
We hardly ever talk about "making the first move" when we talk about this issue, but it's vitally important. It takes someone to initiate intimacy and traditionally, that role has fallen to men. I'm reminded of the song "Then He Kissed Me" by The Crystals:
Well, he walked up to me and he asked me if I wanted to dance
He looked kinda nice and so I said I might take a chance
When he danced he held me tight
And when he walked me home that night
All the stars were shining bright
And then he kissed me
When in there was consent given? What would the song be about if the gender roles were reversed? Then I Kissed Him?
Also, my 26 year-old female co-worker told me once, "I like aggressive men". How am I supposed to interpret that? Especially considering that 125 million copies of 50 Shades of Grey have been sold, mostly to women. I read it, it was awful, but it didn't really support this idea of mutual consent and non-objectification of women, imo.
Well, he walked up to me and he asked me if I wanted to dance
He looked kinda nice and so I said I might take a chance
When he danced he held me tight
And when he walked me home that night
All the stars were shining bright
And then he kissed me
When in there was consent given? What would the song be about if the gender roles were reversed? Then I Kissed Him?
Also, my 26 year-old female co-worker told me once, "I like aggressive men". How am I supposed to interpret that? Especially considering that 125 million copies of 50 Shades of Grey have been sold, mostly to women. I read it, it was awful, but it didn't really support this idea of mutual consent and non-objectification of women, imo.
2
A good part of the solution has to be through education, and there's the rub. "Sex" education must be about so much more than just the mechanics of the various acts, but must include dialogue about the emotional side as well. This is going to make all involved very uncomfortable, but I wish my own adolescence had included such an experience.
My scenario from the first paragraph might happen in some of the Blue states, but I can't imagine it happening in the Red ones. Remember Texas Governor Rick Perry responding to the news that Texas had a very high teen pregnancy rate by repeating "Abstinence works"? I'll never forget it. That's the problem in a nutshell.
My scenario from the first paragraph might happen in some of the Blue states, but I can't imagine it happening in the Red ones. Remember Texas Governor Rick Perry responding to the news that Texas had a very high teen pregnancy rate by repeating "Abstinence works"? I'll never forget it. That's the problem in a nutshell.
I think this touches on issues of social/ cultural norms. In any social group (male, female, or mixed), there are dominant social norms. If an individual goes against the norm by vocally opposing it, for example, they make themselves outcast. The consequences for being outcast range from subtle to serious depending on the situation. In the case of a considerate guy remaining silent while other guys are engaging in more crude “locker room” talk, I imagine that if the considerate guy spoke up to chastise the others, he would become an outcast if the dominant social norm was crude. However, if there were other women present who were being made to feel uncomfortable, then it would be the right thing and better thing for the considerate guy to speak out. I imagine that female social groups or cliques also have their own norms where certain nicer or more considerate women don’t speak out within that social group for fear of being outcast as well.
I think the distinction in these social groups and the difference between the considerate and inconsiderate people is whether they *initiate* the locker room talk, not whether they stand up and tell the other friends or acquaintances to stop it every time. It’s a complex topic but I think it comes down to who the initiator is. Clearly, Trump, is an initiator of crude behavior.
I think the distinction in these social groups and the difference between the considerate and inconsiderate people is whether they *initiate* the locker room talk, not whether they stand up and tell the other friends or acquaintances to stop it every time. It’s a complex topic but I think it comes down to who the initiator is. Clearly, Trump, is an initiator of crude behavior.
It is the responsibility of each and every parent to instill in their son or daughter, for that matter, respect for people, no matter who they are. Now while that may seem a simple statement, it is not an easy feat. It is a mantra to repeat every day, in word and by example. Children watch and observe, and in order to build the moral core they will need as adults, parents must set the example, often fighting a barrage of opposing messages. As a parent and the only female in a family of 5, I made sure each of my sons (and my husband) understood what respecting women meant. It is one of the things I am proudest of, and if you asked them if it made them a better person...the answer would be yes.
1
This election shouldn't just be about gender and sexualized culture while wars are raging in far away places and young people are losing faith in the political institutions but unfortunately it has. All this latent outrage against Trump comes across almost as a red herring since pop culture and the fashion industry have objectified women since as long as I can remember. This is not to mention that bipartisan indignation should have manifested when Bill Clinton was revealed to have made sexual advances towards women of very young age. It's worth to remember that Donald Trump and Bill Bush are not the causes of our sexualized culture that demeans women but rather they are the product. The sudden outburst of disgust in an election season sends the wrong message to young men who will likely interpret this in ways not intended.
1
I once read that in all of human history, about 40% of men have reproduced versus 80% of women.
Could this explain why in so many cultures around the world men feel the need to dominate and control women?
It makes sense that the most aggressive, dominant men would win out in the competition for mates.
Maybe improvements in health and lifespan for all people and giving women choice over whose children they bear, will eventually reverse the preponderance of aggressive, dominance-seeking men in the gene pool.
Could this explain why in so many cultures around the world men feel the need to dominate and control women?
It makes sense that the most aggressive, dominant men would win out in the competition for mates.
Maybe improvements in health and lifespan for all people and giving women choice over whose children they bear, will eventually reverse the preponderance of aggressive, dominance-seeking men in the gene pool.
1
After 40 years of marriage I still like women, and could never imagine being abusive. Women makes good company and I never thought of them as beautiful or ugly; they are equal partners, where I find something is missing in meetings where women are not represented. We should fight for equal rights and equal representation for women on the same level we do for men’s rights. The macho attitude; abuse and domination of women are something I could never understand.
As for being abusive in general, there is the thought that it has something to do with the way Trump grew up, being privileged and considered above others. You can see this in tourists coming from countries, like China; where very few are very rich with children growing up considering themselves above the masses of poor people. You just cannot help but noticing the abusive way they act when visiting western countries, where this sort of attitude is not acceptable.
As for being abusive in general, there is the thought that it has something to do with the way Trump grew up, being privileged and considered above others. You can see this in tourists coming from countries, like China; where very few are very rich with children growing up considering themselves above the masses of poor people. You just cannot help but noticing the abusive way they act when visiting western countries, where this sort of attitude is not acceptable.
5
Like most women I have made these experiences - being groped, kissed on the mouth, etc. The men who did this were all white males, usually at least two decades older than me. Usually this happened at parties or fundraisers, and sometimes my (ex) husband was near by. He usually laughed this behavior off, I think he saw it as a compliment rather than harassment.
I am from Europe and I have never experienced this kind of behavior here - this kind of white, male entitlement is something that is typical for the U.S. Sadly, most of my girl friends were playing along, just as I did. It seems to be required in certain social circles: You 'doll yourself up' (an expression that does not even exist in my language) and you don't complain about unwanted advances. You are, indeed, a doll - there to be trapped and groped and kissed and manhandled.
Now, to the defense of these men I have to say that I never felt threatened. Most of them were rather nice guys, married with kids (and grandkids in some cases). In a way they respected women, but they were so used to just take what they wanted; that's what made it so difficult to deal with it. On the street I might have yelled at a man touching my butt - at a social event? Surely not. Trump's behavior is sickening. But in a way I am glad that because of him we are beginning to talk about this.
I am from Europe and I have never experienced this kind of behavior here - this kind of white, male entitlement is something that is typical for the U.S. Sadly, most of my girl friends were playing along, just as I did. It seems to be required in certain social circles: You 'doll yourself up' (an expression that does not even exist in my language) and you don't complain about unwanted advances. You are, indeed, a doll - there to be trapped and groped and kissed and manhandled.
Now, to the defense of these men I have to say that I never felt threatened. Most of them were rather nice guys, married with kids (and grandkids in some cases). In a way they respected women, but they were so used to just take what they wanted; that's what made it so difficult to deal with it. On the street I might have yelled at a man touching my butt - at a social event? Surely not. Trump's behavior is sickening. But in a way I am glad that because of him we are beginning to talk about this.
1
For someone who grew up in Europe some nearly two generations ago it is strange to read this column.
Yes, there are, and always were, morons who could not take a no for an answer but they were few and would not matter that much as machismo did not register that much with us.
We had our bad days while learning to cope with puberty and first close encounters with the other sex.
But basically we had a very open way to dealing with each other and having a girl friend or a boy friend and having much in common from going to the movies and having sex together as well as going on holidays together was pretty much a normal way to grow up even for late teens then.
And yes, we had our uncertainties about the other sex but usually that ended with the first partner.
What puzzled me, was, when I spent a few months in the US as a an exchange student when I was 16, that US teens had to get drunk before they could summon up the courage to get into contact with the other sex.
They used to get out in same sex groups and spent their time separated until they were drunk enough to muster the courage to get closer to the other group and the usually the only thing that happened was sex and some tales of sexual heroism afterwards when back in their own peer group.
To me this looked like a society gone wrong in an essential part of their upbringing for whatever reason.
Seems to me that the same issues still prevail today when kids ask who is the winner or the loser is in a relation or in sex.
Yes, there are, and always were, morons who could not take a no for an answer but they were few and would not matter that much as machismo did not register that much with us.
We had our bad days while learning to cope with puberty and first close encounters with the other sex.
But basically we had a very open way to dealing with each other and having a girl friend or a boy friend and having much in common from going to the movies and having sex together as well as going on holidays together was pretty much a normal way to grow up even for late teens then.
And yes, we had our uncertainties about the other sex but usually that ended with the first partner.
What puzzled me, was, when I spent a few months in the US as a an exchange student when I was 16, that US teens had to get drunk before they could summon up the courage to get into contact with the other sex.
They used to get out in same sex groups and spent their time separated until they were drunk enough to muster the courage to get closer to the other group and the usually the only thing that happened was sex and some tales of sexual heroism afterwards when back in their own peer group.
To me this looked like a society gone wrong in an essential part of their upbringing for whatever reason.
Seems to me that the same issues still prevail today when kids ask who is the winner or the loser is in a relation or in sex.
4
Peggy, most of the young boys and girls you interviewed, probably have parents who were into the period when our country was going through the 'sexual revolution'.
At that period in America in the '60s., at the parties, in Woodstock and other love shacks, sex was not a taboo but an easy game.
People like Trump still molested many women those days or if you ask him he'd say he never molested anybody ( except maybe his wife Ivana ? ), because of his celebrity status and the money he flashed, women just gave it to him ( "on a platter", as he claims).
So in that atmosphere and in those age, sex didn't have be stolen or forced upon on lot of women as it is now like many young girls tolerated young boys coming up behind them in school dances and just gyrated against their body as you mentioned in your piece.
In today's culture of feminism those actions will be prosecuted under 'sexual harassment' and rightly so.
We also saw in our current culture of feminism where each and every sexual assaults in the army or navy or air force, on a few number of women who're enlisting, are coming out in the open whereas in the '60s hundreds of forcible rapes of young women were swept under the rug and in many cases those men and women who complained about their predicaments to their superiors who were also their perpetrators, were reprimanded or discharged with 'dishonorable conduct unbecoming of a member of the United States Armed forces or whatever disciplines those poor women enlisted to.
Sad.
At that period in America in the '60s., at the parties, in Woodstock and other love shacks, sex was not a taboo but an easy game.
People like Trump still molested many women those days or if you ask him he'd say he never molested anybody ( except maybe his wife Ivana ? ), because of his celebrity status and the money he flashed, women just gave it to him ( "on a platter", as he claims).
So in that atmosphere and in those age, sex didn't have be stolen or forced upon on lot of women as it is now like many young girls tolerated young boys coming up behind them in school dances and just gyrated against their body as you mentioned in your piece.
In today's culture of feminism those actions will be prosecuted under 'sexual harassment' and rightly so.
We also saw in our current culture of feminism where each and every sexual assaults in the army or navy or air force, on a few number of women who're enlisting, are coming out in the open whereas in the '60s hundreds of forcible rapes of young women were swept under the rug and in many cases those men and women who complained about their predicaments to their superiors who were also their perpetrators, were reprimanded or discharged with 'dishonorable conduct unbecoming of a member of the United States Armed forces or whatever disciplines those poor women enlisted to.
Sad.
2
One facet of this that would be fruitful to discuss at some point is the expectation that men assume the role of aggressor in courtship and sex, at least initially. I'm as gentle and respectful as they come, and approaching women I find attractive goes against my every instinct. Yet again and again throughout my life if I didn't approach, or make the first move on a date, the females wouldn't--and would sometimes express their own confusion or disappointment. "How come you didn't make a pass at me?" is a phrase I've heard painfully often in my past. My reply often being, "Why didn't you?"
None of this excuses or justifies male sexual aggression without consent, but it is a factor in sexual politics. Males to feel as though they must to be the aggressor. While we teach boys respect and self-control, we might also consider changing the rules of the dating game and empowering women to approach men they find attractive without corollary shaming--and to assume all the risk of rejection that comes along with it.
None of this excuses or justifies male sexual aggression without consent, but it is a factor in sexual politics. Males to feel as though they must to be the aggressor. While we teach boys respect and self-control, we might also consider changing the rules of the dating game and empowering women to approach men they find attractive without corollary shaming--and to assume all the risk of rejection that comes along with it.
8
First of all the writer is a woman telling the readers from her prospective without providing enough or much about how women must behave. Locker room talk is quite possibly the single thing that men bond together over - what attracts men to women and what she signals to men to come get sex. So women have certain behavior that must be reigned in just as men must reign it in even more so. Sexual more today are even more front and center with sexuality exploding from LGBT - while healthy straight men and women are seen as frigid in comparison. Men in an age of Hillarys are told to be more like women, do women things and think like a woman around women. Careful you will be accused of horrible crimes or perhaps be outed as an abuser or predator simply talking about women - the last bastion of not getting in trouble by being near a woman. Stop bashing all men and stop telling men that because they have junk between their legs that they are worthless. Sound familiar? Peggy not all men are or speak locker room talk nor are many interested in sharing much of their interactions. Certainly don't think we will stand by and defect to going gay that's simply misguided thinking on your part or perhaps you have become a lesbian who shuns men?
1
There are actually no facts to support the charge that Trump engaged in sexual assault, or any kind of sexually predatory behavior. These are all presumptions from his political enemies, who nonetheless have nothing condemnatory to say about Bill Clinton or his wife's collusion in his factually confirmed predatory behavior.
The real degradation of women is occurring by the incessant emphasis on sex in this campaign, including that Hillary, despite her history of shameless influence peddling, mishandling (at least) of classified information and lying, should somehow be celebrated because she would be the first woman president.
The real degradation of women is occurring by the incessant emphasis on sex in this campaign, including that Hillary, despite her history of shameless influence peddling, mishandling (at least) of classified information and lying, should somehow be celebrated because she would be the first woman president.
2
Kudos to Ms. Orenstein for referencing Meat Loaf and "Paradise". The "battle of the sexes" metaphor did, in fact, encompass a notion of winners and losers. Battles arise from competing groups claiming the same territory. The ability of all people to have unquestioned control of their own body should not be a matter of debate. Undoing thousands of years of masculinity-defining male privilege will require frank, open, ongoing discussion of sex and sexuality in schools, workplaces, and numerous public fora. And it will require the state to respect reproductive rights. See Ross Douthat's column, justifying a vote for Trump as part of the anti-abortion crusade, to see how difficult it will be to ensure a woman's right to be free from unwanted intrusion.
5
This thought-provoking column by Peggy Orenstein reflects the conclusions of someone who has spent a lot of time and attention to the topic of male and female attitudes about sex, especially the feelings of young people today.
As someone a couple generations removed from the young people who are the focus of Ms. Orenstein, I wonder how things can have changed so much since I was that age.
In my day, the guys who forced themselves on girls were considered losers. Maybe it was simply a question of our egos, but it definitely was viewed as uncool for a guy to be so desperate that he had to paw a girl against her will.
Part of the disgust men of my generation feel about Donald Trump is that, not only does he seem – grotesquely for his age -- to have an adolescent’s immature views of women, he has the views of an adolescent who is a consistent loser with the opposite sex. Trump is afraid of failure, if he treats a woman as an equal.
Donald Trump is scared of getting nowhere with women, unless he acts like a bully and relies upon his wealth and celebrity.
It’s pathetic.
As someone a couple generations removed from the young people who are the focus of Ms. Orenstein, I wonder how things can have changed so much since I was that age.
In my day, the guys who forced themselves on girls were considered losers. Maybe it was simply a question of our egos, but it definitely was viewed as uncool for a guy to be so desperate that he had to paw a girl against her will.
Part of the disgust men of my generation feel about Donald Trump is that, not only does he seem – grotesquely for his age -- to have an adolescent’s immature views of women, he has the views of an adolescent who is a consistent loser with the opposite sex. Trump is afraid of failure, if he treats a woman as an equal.
Donald Trump is scared of getting nowhere with women, unless he acts like a bully and relies upon his wealth and celebrity.
It’s pathetic.
85
A big problem not even mentioned here and almost never dealt with seriously outside of the academic literature is how much mothers are complicit in how boys come to define masculinity. It is not solely how fathers define it, and anyone who tells you so does not know what he/she is talking about.
Apart from our mothers' fraught feelings and attitudes regarding masculinity, our girlfriends - platonic and otherwise - are also subtly a part of how boys come to understand themselves and how to relate to girls/women.
I was born very sensitive, perhaps too sensitive, and growing up I learned from my mom a way to strike a balance between my nature and the harsh realities of masculine gender identities that I encountered in school.
One of those realities in school is simply that the boys that are handsome extroverted and good at sports are rewarded with attention - and those that are not sit in the corner at prom night shamed and resentful of the fact.
I grew out of that feeling partly because of my mom's influence, but mostly because I had it in me to see the bigger picture.
Don't pretend men are to blame solely for how they come to see what it means to be a man.
Apart from our mothers' fraught feelings and attitudes regarding masculinity, our girlfriends - platonic and otherwise - are also subtly a part of how boys come to understand themselves and how to relate to girls/women.
I was born very sensitive, perhaps too sensitive, and growing up I learned from my mom a way to strike a balance between my nature and the harsh realities of masculine gender identities that I encountered in school.
One of those realities in school is simply that the boys that are handsome extroverted and good at sports are rewarded with attention - and those that are not sit in the corner at prom night shamed and resentful of the fact.
I grew out of that feeling partly because of my mom's influence, but mostly because I had it in me to see the bigger picture.
Don't pretend men are to blame solely for how they come to see what it means to be a man.
1
Part of the problem is that boys and men are used to entitlement, from the way they are raised (whether or not they realize it, and whether or not their parents intended it). I think, in general, boys are given much more leniency with their behavior, starting in infancy. Of my 4 children (3 girls and 1 boy), my toddler boy is by far the most difficult to correct when it comes to boundary violations and inappropriate behavior. I have to work much harder to correct his behavior compared to his sisters at the same age, but I persevere because I don't want him to grow up with gender entitlement.
I see countless examples of parents and educators who don't correct boys' poor behaviors as often or as successfully as they do for the girls'. I know the reason is simply because it's more difficult to do; and that's very discouraging (ask any parent or educator of boys and girls, and almost all will say boys are more difficult). It's easier in the short term to throw up one's hands and say "boys will be boys." But this only perpetuates the behavior, and shortchanges boys in the long term, because it doesn't give them a chance to learn impulse control and appropriate behavior.
Starting from infancy, we must reject the idea that "boys will be boys." Poor behavior needs to be corrected from infancy.
I see countless examples of parents and educators who don't correct boys' poor behaviors as often or as successfully as they do for the girls'. I know the reason is simply because it's more difficult to do; and that's very discouraging (ask any parent or educator of boys and girls, and almost all will say boys are more difficult). It's easier in the short term to throw up one's hands and say "boys will be boys." But this only perpetuates the behavior, and shortchanges boys in the long term, because it doesn't give them a chance to learn impulse control and appropriate behavior.
Starting from infancy, we must reject the idea that "boys will be boys." Poor behavior needs to be corrected from infancy.
9
In the days of cave dwellers when it appears the brain had yet to catch up with the body's desire to reproduce, behavior such as described was normal, but as societies began to evolve and for that of reason if no other socialization became an important part of observable life, dragging the object of his affection off by her hair became a less acceptable strategy for a man to use in courtship.
I am not aware of the rites and social mores of other cultures, but suspect they all evolved at a similar pace from which I infer women, as the physically weaker half of the sexual equation, were, as they still are in many situations, expected to go along, willingly or not made no difference. Social evolution certainly changed the acceptance, but rarely the mindset.
The fact is men's exposure to women outside the home is framed in a social context where women, far from being idealized, are objectified as possessions gained through many different means. Among them dominance, which is sometime explicit but more often implicit, still ranks well up on the scale.
As children neither men nor women are taught about being human. We are inculcated with values which, drawn from contemporary mythology woven throughout all religious belief, are hardly equitable with regard to the actual roles and responsibilities of each sex. Both men and women are assigned separate and unequal values which are tilted in favor of dominance through physical might rather than reason.
Want to be a man? Vote Hillary
I am not aware of the rites and social mores of other cultures, but suspect they all evolved at a similar pace from which I infer women, as the physically weaker half of the sexual equation, were, as they still are in many situations, expected to go along, willingly or not made no difference. Social evolution certainly changed the acceptance, but rarely the mindset.
The fact is men's exposure to women outside the home is framed in a social context where women, far from being idealized, are objectified as possessions gained through many different means. Among them dominance, which is sometime explicit but more often implicit, still ranks well up on the scale.
As children neither men nor women are taught about being human. We are inculcated with values which, drawn from contemporary mythology woven throughout all religious belief, are hardly equitable with regard to the actual roles and responsibilities of each sex. Both men and women are assigned separate and unequal values which are tilted in favor of dominance through physical might rather than reason.
Want to be a man? Vote Hillary
4
Trump will shortly go down to a well-deserved defeat. And boys and men have virtually no power beyond the puny reach of their physical bodies. The Feminist movement will shortly control the White House and the US Supreme Court as well as every University and virtually every media and entertainment outlet. They will control the levers of power and make the decisions.
The Presidency of Hillary Rodham Clinton will make it at least 28 years in a row that the American President has no idea of what it is like to raise a son, no idea of what a son faces in everyday life.
The question is not how to be a man in the "age of Trump." The question is how to survive as a boy or a man in the coming Feminist Supremacist Age.
The Presidency of Hillary Rodham Clinton will make it at least 28 years in a row that the American President has no idea of what it is like to raise a son, no idea of what a son faces in everyday life.
The question is not how to be a man in the "age of Trump." The question is how to survive as a boy or a man in the coming Feminist Supremacist Age.
2
From my first full time job at age 17, when my employer told to me in great detail about how he would like to rape me (at an ice cream store), to my first "serious" job (at an arts organization) where the founder of the company used to conduct meetings where part of my "job' was to sit on his lap, I experienced constant sexual harassment in the workplace from age 17 until I went back to school to became a teacher at age 33. Even when the behavior of my coworkers or bosses gave me nightmares, I never complained about it to anyone - not even my family members knew what was going on. Truth be told, I didn't understand it myself. All that I knew was that more than any of my friends, I was constantly struggling to adapt myself to avoid or tolerate the unwanted sexual advances. In retrospect I realize that my great discomfort and the fact that I had been raised to be a polite "good girl", made it impossible for me to ever look a man in the eye and say "stop that". My passivity must have been read as tacit approval by the men who were harassing me. Of course, no one intervened on my behalf either because - lets face it - no one ever does. It was not until the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearing that I even realized what sexual harassment was. It is my opinion that parents do their children a favor when they address sexual matters openly. It makes it easier for children to recognize their own and others's sexual behaviors and speak up for themselves.
5
Finally, we are beginning to talk openly about the complicated relationship between sexuality and power, and how it affects individuals. both men and women.
Like many other women in their sixties, my life was impacted the liberations movements of the 60s and 70s, both personally and professionally. We didn't marry young but explored the world before settling down. Some married and children; others didn't. However, now looking back on it, we were just beginning to find ways to articulate concerns about unwanted sexual advances.
In my case, many years ago, I was the victim of sexual assault (by a fellow grad student, now a tenured professor); I had long pushed it to the back of my mind until these last couple weeks. I confronted my aggressor at the time without much success and only now I am beginning the understand how profound and complicated the experience really was. Very little peer support was available. I would urge anyone who has experienced it to find ways to deal with experience as soon as feasible;
Mrs. Obama's extraordinary speech this week reaches across generations. For the first, someone in public life gives us the outline of how to move forward in a way that respects all of us, embraces our differences and finds common ground between and among the genders.
Needless to say, I will very happy to vote for Hillary Clinton.
Like many other women in their sixties, my life was impacted the liberations movements of the 60s and 70s, both personally and professionally. We didn't marry young but explored the world before settling down. Some married and children; others didn't. However, now looking back on it, we were just beginning to find ways to articulate concerns about unwanted sexual advances.
In my case, many years ago, I was the victim of sexual assault (by a fellow grad student, now a tenured professor); I had long pushed it to the back of my mind until these last couple weeks. I confronted my aggressor at the time without much success and only now I am beginning the understand how profound and complicated the experience really was. Very little peer support was available. I would urge anyone who has experienced it to find ways to deal with experience as soon as feasible;
Mrs. Obama's extraordinary speech this week reaches across generations. For the first, someone in public life gives us the outline of how to move forward in a way that respects all of us, embraces our differences and finds common ground between and among the genders.
Needless to say, I will very happy to vote for Hillary Clinton.
7
I’m a recently retired elementary school teacher. I sat through many years of “family life” classes as the district sex ed teacher explained the biology of reproduction to 5th graders. Anatomy charts.; explanations of erections and periods. And a question box: you can best believe that today’s students have all sorts of questions about all sorts of sexual issues.
However, because of differing public opinions, the public schools are not able to discuss any of the cultural, social, emotional or personal issues that these students will encounter in their intimate relationships.
Despite all of our society’s licentious ways we still can’t seem to have a honest discussion about human sexual development.
However, because of differing public opinions, the public schools are not able to discuss any of the cultural, social, emotional or personal issues that these students will encounter in their intimate relationships.
Despite all of our society’s licentious ways we still can’t seem to have a honest discussion about human sexual development.
4
I have felt the feelings described by Ms. Orenstein based on her interviews of young men about their attitudes toward sexuality. And my experience was that there is a wide gap between the expectations I felt (which were to be aggressive) and what I really wanted to do (which was to talk and get to know her, if she was interested. And as I have learned, girls felt the same way I did. So yes, I also experienced confusion and was troubled by the expectations. I have wondered where these expectations come from. I don't think they are innate. I suppose we hear them from our friends as we enter this phase of our lives. But from my experience, our friends, who are as inexperienced and awkward around the opposite sex as I was don't really subscribe to the expectations. But somehow we seem to feel like are all supposed to be Valentinos as we enter to world of school dances, dating, and generally pursuing the opposite sex. And we know we haven't the foggiest idea of what we're doing. And how would we? At this point of our lives we (and the girls we pursue) are probably less than 10 years removed from sucking our thumbs. I know there is a lot more to this subject than the difference between initial expectations and what young people really want when first getting to know each other. But I do think that parents openly discussing this difference, and their experience of it with their kids would probably help a little.
1
As instruction belongs to schools, education starts at home...and early. If there is domestic violence, usually an abusive husband, it would be awfully unusual to expect a son to learn self-respect, hence, respect for others, particularly women. And if similar boys meet at school, they start denigrating girls to compensate for their own immaturity and insecurities, they objectivize human beings, a deadly emotional weight that traps them into sexual abuse and predatory impulses as if it were their entitled right to do, the antithesis of love. Look at bully Trump (a coward in disguise), damaged since childhood, with no feelings for others, unscrupulous in his dealings, cheating whenever the occasion presents itself, a master liar with flair, unable to accept himself as a monster (his egomania won't allow it), arrogant in his vast ignorance, a child that wasn't allow to grow up, surrounded by inherited wealth and privilege, a sexual predator that wants to become president. The concern is 'trumpism' after he loses, right? Well, it sounds as though his followers have remained immature as well, and not too dissimilar to this vulgar thug, given they are willing to brush aside his stupid stance (bordering on criminal, if one is willing to study his case). Again, we parents may be incurring in 'dereliction of duty' by not teaching our kids early on to love each other, and follow the 'golden rule'. And Trump has been a lost case ever since.
1
As a man I welcome Peggy Orenstein's call for for "a more radical, challenging discussion about what it means...to be a man." It's a question we men most urgently need to ask of ourselves, seeking answers more relevant to these times than the macho posturing that has historically done so much violence not only to women but to men's relations with one another and their own hearts. For all its bravado, machismo is a cover for the excruciating insecurities many men feel but desperately don't want to admit to themselves or anyone else for fear that they'll appear unmanly. Their violence towards and objectification of women often conceals a fear of intimacy and an inability to admit their own vulnerability. I've found that many men express a touching tenderness when speaking one-on-one with another man they feel they can trust, but once a third man (or woman) appears, that candor disappears under a cloak of feigned toughness. Yet men too are evolving, though more slowly than many of us might wish. Taking the time to father their children, sharing household tasks without regard to gender roles, developing easy, non-romantic friendships with women -- in these and other ways men are developing their innate capacities for tenderness and intimacy. Real men love strong women, not competing with them for dominance but celebrating their equal stature and accomplishments. There's hope for us men yet, if we finally come home to our hearts and share them openly with others.
1
As a gay man, I have never been sexually attracted to the opposite sex. Throughout my life I have formed loving and lasting friendships with many women. And to my women friends, it comes as a relief to know a man who treats them as equals. I know firsthand that when women discuss men, their focus isn't on the size of their penises or the configuration of their bodies.
There is a preoccupation with sex in the Western world. I have an adopted Lao son, Onsi, now 25. In Luang Prabang there are pressures to lose ones virginity, but there is no disrespect for the opposite sex. Many young Lao men delay having sex until they have the resources to support a family. This is ingrained in their culture and in their expectations about love and romance and sex.
This seems to me to be far preferable to a culture that treats women as sex objects.
Two days ago I sent Onsi a link to Michelle Obama's speech, but it probably wasn't necessary. I am blessed to have a son who already respects women. But if I were a father in this American culture, to a son who had sexist attitudes to women, I would be gentle but relentless in teaching and showing him how disabling this is to him. Sexualizing other people is soul-rotting. And the flipside is an open pathway to happy friends, happy marriage, and happy children.
There is a preoccupation with sex in the Western world. I have an adopted Lao son, Onsi, now 25. In Luang Prabang there are pressures to lose ones virginity, but there is no disrespect for the opposite sex. Many young Lao men delay having sex until they have the resources to support a family. This is ingrained in their culture and in their expectations about love and romance and sex.
This seems to me to be far preferable to a culture that treats women as sex objects.
Two days ago I sent Onsi a link to Michelle Obama's speech, but it probably wasn't necessary. I am blessed to have a son who already respects women. But if I were a father in this American culture, to a son who had sexist attitudes to women, I would be gentle but relentless in teaching and showing him how disabling this is to him. Sexualizing other people is soul-rotting. And the flipside is an open pathway to happy friends, happy marriage, and happy children.
1
"It's just sex..." really started with effective birth control that women had the power to manage. The separation of the pleasures of sex from the prospect and responsibilities of pregnancy was, and is, a great liberation that is still working itself out in fits and starts throughout the world. Extremes of expectations, and behaviors, were bound to follow in the wake of the acceleration and zig-zagging of such a massive vessel as human sexuality.
I'm an old sixties lefty and would never want to go back to the middle of the twentieth century as some sort of safe place. But as a man, the father of a son and a daughter, and having been married to my best friend for over forty years, I can testify to how complicated human relationships have become. Yet the complications are breaking down barriers and rigidities that truly needed razing.
That said, I've found one simple principle that has helped immensely in navigating these changes: respect. Respect one's fellow human beings as having a fundamental worth and dignity and you won't go too far wrong even in the midst of all the turmoil and confusion.
In terms of masculinity, the granting of respect as a first principle can be difficult both to inculcate and practice; testosterone is sometimes not helpful at all in either process! But it is imperative that we try, and ultimately succeed, in evolving versions of masculinity that can conserve and channel male energy and drive constructively. The results will be SO worth it!
I'm an old sixties lefty and would never want to go back to the middle of the twentieth century as some sort of safe place. But as a man, the father of a son and a daughter, and having been married to my best friend for over forty years, I can testify to how complicated human relationships have become. Yet the complications are breaking down barriers and rigidities that truly needed razing.
That said, I've found one simple principle that has helped immensely in navigating these changes: respect. Respect one's fellow human beings as having a fundamental worth and dignity and you won't go too far wrong even in the midst of all the turmoil and confusion.
In terms of masculinity, the granting of respect as a first principle can be difficult both to inculcate and practice; testosterone is sometimes not helpful at all in either process! But it is imperative that we try, and ultimately succeed, in evolving versions of masculinity that can conserve and channel male energy and drive constructively. The results will be SO worth it!
3
Locker room talk has much in common with signifying, as well as a lot of rap music. These are principally black verbal art forms with deep roots in black culture. Signifying involves the creative use of language to make tongue in cheek insults. Some of the insults are directed at women and their bodies, mich like locker room talk. The talk is a verbal game not to be taken literally. But it can include almost anything that Trump has said. The banter has been studied by scholars including Henry Louis Gates, Jr. who notes the creativity, the historical background, the role it plays in black communication and how it creates status among those particularly skilled. As for rap music, I'm no expert, but it clearly is an art form that includes offending language about women.
Those who engage in signifying and those who rap use many of the same references typical of locker room talk. To the extent that creative language is part of locker room talk -- and it often is -- its censoring is not widely considered acceptable. Moreover, many art forms are offensive to some part of the population and censoring them for that reason has generally been considered unacceptable except by those who burn books. The ACLU protects the free speck rights of the KKK. I would expect them to stand up to any censorship of locker room talk.
Those who engage in signifying and those who rap use many of the same references typical of locker room talk. To the extent that creative language is part of locker room talk -- and it often is -- its censoring is not widely considered acceptable. Moreover, many art forms are offensive to some part of the population and censoring them for that reason has generally been considered unacceptable except by those who burn books. The ACLU protects the free speck rights of the KKK. I would expect them to stand up to any censorship of locker room talk.
1
Start teaching boys that their self definition does not begin with women.
They must find themselves in the true culture of masculinity.
They must avoid toxic feminism (a political movement) that holds toxic masculinity (a gender) in disdain (Obama diavows associating "radical" with "Islam" so why do toxic feminists get away with a similar association for a gender?)
Masculinity has done very bad things (that is why we have women's centers-to remind us), but boys have long since forgotten that masculinity created civilization: almost all the art, music, science, engineering.
We must teach our boys that that is the path. We must teach our boys that men are good. We must teach our boys that without men, we would still be living in grass huts.
Our government must fund as much on after school programs for boys as it does for girls in SMET. Our government must fund as much on mens's healt as it does on women.
Our matriarchal government must stop this viliification of all things male.
Boys must grow up in a culture without prom-dates, Valentines, pornograpic romance novels, and all the pressures put on them by the matriarchy.
Only then will boys flourish and leave women alone.
They must find themselves in the true culture of masculinity.
They must avoid toxic feminism (a political movement) that holds toxic masculinity (a gender) in disdain (Obama diavows associating "radical" with "Islam" so why do toxic feminists get away with a similar association for a gender?)
Masculinity has done very bad things (that is why we have women's centers-to remind us), but boys have long since forgotten that masculinity created civilization: almost all the art, music, science, engineering.
We must teach our boys that that is the path. We must teach our boys that men are good. We must teach our boys that without men, we would still be living in grass huts.
Our government must fund as much on after school programs for boys as it does for girls in SMET. Our government must fund as much on mens's healt as it does on women.
Our matriarchal government must stop this viliification of all things male.
Boys must grow up in a culture without prom-dates, Valentines, pornograpic romance novels, and all the pressures put on them by the matriarchy.
Only then will boys flourish and leave women alone.
2
We keep going around in circles on this "issue," which shouldn't even be a so-called issue anymore. Twenty-five years after the Clarence Thomas hearings, and here we are back to square one again.
One would hope that Donald Trump might be just a grotesque, cretinous aberration, but the prominence of names such as Roger Ailes and Bill Cosby, just to name two, underscore the reality that he isn't. Not by a long shot.
And even if the 45th president is not named Trump, which now appears ensured, the fact that half of the next first couple -- the "first gentleman" -- will surely be an authenticated sexual predator/abuser/harasser, serial adulterer and high-profile public liar is hardly reassuring.
It's disheartening that, in the 21st(!) century, there still needs to be a discussion of what it means "to be a man," but the weight of evidence, even at this late date, is overwhelming that there does. The dignity of each individual human being is so basic and so precious, as is "do unto others ...," yet efforts still need to be redoubled to teach Humanity 101. In what supposedly is the most advanced nation on earth.
It's ironic that it took the track record of a Neanderthal presidential candidate to demonstrate so dramatically that half of our species hasn't sufficiently evolved. But if this is, in fact, the ultimate turning point in our ever-so-slow societal progress, a grudging thank you could even be in order. Although it'll be hard to say without gagging.
One would hope that Donald Trump might be just a grotesque, cretinous aberration, but the prominence of names such as Roger Ailes and Bill Cosby, just to name two, underscore the reality that he isn't. Not by a long shot.
And even if the 45th president is not named Trump, which now appears ensured, the fact that half of the next first couple -- the "first gentleman" -- will surely be an authenticated sexual predator/abuser/harasser, serial adulterer and high-profile public liar is hardly reassuring.
It's disheartening that, in the 21st(!) century, there still needs to be a discussion of what it means "to be a man," but the weight of evidence, even at this late date, is overwhelming that there does. The dignity of each individual human being is so basic and so precious, as is "do unto others ...," yet efforts still need to be redoubled to teach Humanity 101. In what supposedly is the most advanced nation on earth.
It's ironic that it took the track record of a Neanderthal presidential candidate to demonstrate so dramatically that half of our species hasn't sufficiently evolved. But if this is, in fact, the ultimate turning point in our ever-so-slow societal progress, a grudging thank you could even be in order. Although it'll be hard to say without gagging.
2
This is an important piece, and men have the responsibility to address the development of boys. At the school I head, we are engaged in an ongoing conversation about consent, led by students themselves. We begin, in age appropriate ways, with Lower School students. That's when attitudes are formed. Orenstein's observations are important and the work with teenagers is valuable, but that work is too little too late.
As to Trump, I suspect his sexual violence is a long family tradition, quite typical among white, entitled males. In his case, particularly in recent years, I can imagine that forcing himself on women is the only way he can be intimate. His sexual insecurity is glaring.
As to Trump, I suspect his sexual violence is a long family tradition, quite typical among white, entitled males. In his case, particularly in recent years, I can imagine that forcing himself on women is the only way he can be intimate. His sexual insecurity is glaring.
3
"By college, young women told me, drunken party boys felt free to kiss, touch and rub up against them at will.". why do they attend parties at which such behavior is expected? Yes, women have the right to choose to choose what events to attend (and what clothes to wear to those events). but why do some women apparently expect that their bad decisions will not result in bad behavior by men? do blacks and catholics and jews expect to be treated properly at klan rallies? It is of course, their right not to be molested under any circumstance but it is also dumb for them to place themselves in 'harm's way'. (I am not 'blaming the victim'- I totally blame the victimizer for his behavior but can only shake my head at the victim for putting herself in a situation that is likely to bring about that behavior). women on campus should be organizing and demonstrating to outlaw drinking or fraternities rather than attending drunken fraternity parties and expecting to be treated properly there.
1
How to be a man in the modern age and the concept of women being equal to men?
The historical progression from say, 1900 (to set a quite arbitrary date), to the modern age seems to have answered the question how not to be a man much more successfully than how to be a man. All we mean by progress, law and order, justice, civilization, not to mention the tremendous task of coordinating rapidly increasing population, is to a large degree subtracting some of man from man, which is to say physically constraining the animal at least and in many cases narrowing and constraining scope of intellectual ambition.
Women have not so much become equal to men by a change in themselves--we generally speak of emancipation of women--but rather by cutting men down to size, at least dramatically reducing their physical capacity to act...Take a modern film with the male hero: He is ironically a figure given wide latitude to act in reinforcing ever more deeply constraints against the very actions he uses against villainy, evil.
Population explosion of course is just increasing the hemming in of man. A good grasp of the psychological anguish of modern man is to make an analogy to an automobile forced to drive at a speed limit far less than capacity of automobile. From the biological perspective this situation no doubt favors the evolution of a different type of male human than that which has historically existed--a more intellectual, physically deficient and less aggressive man. A woman?
The historical progression from say, 1900 (to set a quite arbitrary date), to the modern age seems to have answered the question how not to be a man much more successfully than how to be a man. All we mean by progress, law and order, justice, civilization, not to mention the tremendous task of coordinating rapidly increasing population, is to a large degree subtracting some of man from man, which is to say physically constraining the animal at least and in many cases narrowing and constraining scope of intellectual ambition.
Women have not so much become equal to men by a change in themselves--we generally speak of emancipation of women--but rather by cutting men down to size, at least dramatically reducing their physical capacity to act...Take a modern film with the male hero: He is ironically a figure given wide latitude to act in reinforcing ever more deeply constraints against the very actions he uses against villainy, evil.
Population explosion of course is just increasing the hemming in of man. A good grasp of the psychological anguish of modern man is to make an analogy to an automobile forced to drive at a speed limit far less than capacity of automobile. From the biological perspective this situation no doubt favors the evolution of a different type of male human than that which has historically existed--a more intellectual, physically deficient and less aggressive man. A woman?
You can't have patriarchal elitism without hidden sexist behavior that is designed to lower female power and spirits. We have come some of the way but the journey forward is really difficult partially because we, as a nation, have little vision as to what the future looks like. Mormon Utah, will that ever accept women in power?
Allowing democratic rights for women, and strongly educating children in how to be friends with all, will inevitably result in a healthier society, but with equality comes the fall of arrogant male religious and political hierarchies and perhaps the end of war as the normal way of doing "business" in the world. An America that is striding on the world stage as the dominant predator probably is going to have great problems at home sitting down and having these important conversations with our sisters and mothers and female classmates.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene
Allowing democratic rights for women, and strongly educating children in how to be friends with all, will inevitably result in a healthier society, but with equality comes the fall of arrogant male religious and political hierarchies and perhaps the end of war as the normal way of doing "business" in the world. An America that is striding on the world stage as the dominant predator probably is going to have great problems at home sitting down and having these important conversations with our sisters and mothers and female classmates.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene
To the 'cup of tea' analogy I would add: It doesn't matter how many cups of tea others may have brewed for her; she doesn't want *your* tea. (I'd also add that women have some responsibility for their choices, and unless the guy drugged your glass, you are responsible for your choice to get blind drunk and pass out.)
To the pressure on boys to 'grab one', I would add that the fear of being, or being perceived as, gay can be operative in girls, too - that if you don't 'put out', you're a lesbian, or will be labeled as one.
In general, I would add that Gavin de Becker's invaluable book on personal safety, 'The Gift of Fear', makes two invaluable points:
1. Hollywood movies, including so-called chick flicks and rom-coms, promulgate the idea that no doesn't mean no, and that persistence pays off. From Valentino in The Sheik to Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate and to the present day, the pattern is: they 'meet cute', can't stand each other initially, but sooner or later she comes around.
2. Our culture also inculcates in women the imperative to be 'nice'. This can mean in practice that we pay out too much rope to a man who's being annoying - sitting too close; touching your clothes or hair, 'is that real silk?' etc; turning the conversation prematurely to matters increasingly personal; what used to be called 'taking liberties'.
To the pressure on boys to 'grab one', I would add that the fear of being, or being perceived as, gay can be operative in girls, too - that if you don't 'put out', you're a lesbian, or will be labeled as one.
In general, I would add that Gavin de Becker's invaluable book on personal safety, 'The Gift of Fear', makes two invaluable points:
1. Hollywood movies, including so-called chick flicks and rom-coms, promulgate the idea that no doesn't mean no, and that persistence pays off. From Valentino in The Sheik to Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate and to the present day, the pattern is: they 'meet cute', can't stand each other initially, but sooner or later she comes around.
2. Our culture also inculcates in women the imperative to be 'nice'. This can mean in practice that we pay out too much rope to a man who's being annoying - sitting too close; touching your clothes or hair, 'is that real silk?' etc; turning the conversation prematurely to matters increasingly personal; what used to be called 'taking liberties'.
3
Great piece -- thoughtful and helpful. I realize that I have had many discussions with my 18 year old daughter on consent, but none with her 23-year-old brother. I wish I had read this before our recent visit. I am confident in him as a young man....but sorry to have been so one-sided in raising my kids.
3
Eh. Where to begin? I'm still reeling from Trump's comment at his most recent rally about Ms. Leeds: "Would I pick someone who looked like her?" His statement was met with the audience's approving roar. Sick. Absolutely sick.
188
The dignity of women is a good place to start, but it is by no means where to end this conversation, even if every man were to graduate somehow from rape culture. Objectification of the other is fundamental to the system we all navigate, and it derives specifically from rule number one: your needs are the most important in the entire world, they trump everybody else's, and no one but you when push comes to shove is going to look out for them. Sex is closely followed by money and in many cases is far down the list of a particular person's priorities, but the dynamic of rape culture is the same: abuse, exploit, use, disregard, and throw away. "Conservatives" have canned response after canned response for why no other system than looking out for number one is the common sense, hands down winner of all of the "alternatives." Human nature and all that. So the rotten world we inhabit reproduces itself generation after generation beacuse "there is no altrenative." Money pits each and every one of us against each other. War is the logical conclusion. People you don't even know are killed to fill garages full of garbage. Women are the most obvious victims of rape culture, as are we all -- and nature is thrown in for good measure.
74
" “Don’t sexually assault women” (or, for that matter, “Don’t get a girl pregnant”) is an awfully low bar for acceptable behavior."
Geesh! Ya think?
For 10 days now, we've been subjected to nonstop "conversations" about sexuality. But all this reminds me of the old SCOTUS definition of pornography: you know it when you see it. Same with sexual predation.
I like the "tea" analogy, but maybe if young boys were told that the secret to success in life is not taking a person's yes or no at face value: in order words, if you have to ask twice, the answer is no. The lead word, being, "ask." Not, "take." Particularly from strangers or women one hardly knows.
Your last phrase about continuing the discussion of sexuality, particularly what it means to be a man, is significant in light of Trump's comments in recent months about "rigged elections": "...a discussion that must continue in public and in our homes long after the candidate himself is told it’s game over."
Normally, candidates (or men) don't have to be "told" that the game is over, once the votes are counted or the woman screams. The notion that the a candidate (like Trump), or a predator like (Trump), needs to be told "game over" is frightening.
Because what if they don't accept that?
Geesh! Ya think?
For 10 days now, we've been subjected to nonstop "conversations" about sexuality. But all this reminds me of the old SCOTUS definition of pornography: you know it when you see it. Same with sexual predation.
I like the "tea" analogy, but maybe if young boys were told that the secret to success in life is not taking a person's yes or no at face value: in order words, if you have to ask twice, the answer is no. The lead word, being, "ask." Not, "take." Particularly from strangers or women one hardly knows.
Your last phrase about continuing the discussion of sexuality, particularly what it means to be a man, is significant in light of Trump's comments in recent months about "rigged elections": "...a discussion that must continue in public and in our homes long after the candidate himself is told it’s game over."
Normally, candidates (or men) don't have to be "told" that the game is over, once the votes are counted or the woman screams. The notion that the a candidate (like Trump), or a predator like (Trump), needs to be told "game over" is frightening.
Because what if they don't accept that?
112
ERRATUM: "I like the "tea" analogy, but maybe if young boys were told that the secret to success in life is ACCEPTING a person's yes or no at face value: in other words, if you have to ask twice, the answer is no."
50
What should we make of the WikiLeaks emails that are clearly from the DNC to Craig's List posting fake sexist ads on behalf of Trumo? This is where these women claiming sexual assault are coming from and it is horrendous. How can this be overlooked? This is criminal behavior and it's being completely ignored by our media once again.
http://conservativefiringline.com/wikileaks-clinton-camp-posted-fake-sex...
http://conservativefiringline.com/wikileaks-clinton-camp-posted-fake-sex...
The age of Trump? Ultra recessive!
That he garners votes is depressive,
That an ego so base
Has a chance in the race
And only since he's so obsessive.
Engages in flamboyant taunting
His ignorance shameful and haunting
While out with the boys
Spouts flamboyant noise
Of sexual assaults he is flaunting.
That he garners votes is depressive,
That an ego so base
Has a chance in the race
And only since he's so obsessive.
Engages in flamboyant taunting
His ignorance shameful and haunting
While out with the boys
Spouts flamboyant noise
Of sexual assaults he is flaunting.
129
In the end, Michelle Obama is not right. There has been a sufficient groundswell of disgust from MEN about Trump’s sexist comments that it’s clear how far we’ve evolved from the sixties and seventies when I grew up. What Trump’s election would mean is that DESPITE that disgust, the balanced decision between the benefits and risks represented by each candidate favored him, not her.
But it’s a good argument to make that seeks Sec. Clinton’s election not on grounds of disgust at perceived sexism, but on ideological interest.
As to institutional efforts to sensitize males to the need for sexual consent and the dangers of stereotypes, they’re valuable and long overdue. However, in that dismantling of stereotypes, let’s not throw babies out with bathwater. The disintegration of the American family has developed apace with precisely those efforts to make gender roles indistinguishable; and one may have a lot to do with the other.
But it’s a good argument to make that seeks Sec. Clinton’s election not on grounds of disgust at perceived sexism, but on ideological interest.
As to institutional efforts to sensitize males to the need for sexual consent and the dangers of stereotypes, they’re valuable and long overdue. However, in that dismantling of stereotypes, let’s not throw babies out with bathwater. The disintegration of the American family has developed apace with precisely those efforts to make gender roles indistinguishable; and one may have a lot to do with the other.
37
I have to disagree with your opening sentence. Michelle was right.
There's a difference between a groundswell of disgust among men, which I agree does exist, and a breadth and depth of disgust which your own words demonstrate is still far off, Look, I agree that this election should be about other issues and it behooves Hillary to make her case on these (which she does, and better than in the handwaving abstractions that Trump uses).
Your comment boils down to this: you confine Trump's flaws to the way he deals with women and you are prepared to overlook them for what you perceive as the greater good of the nation.
As if that were not bad enough, Trump's sexism is but one part of how he has in general abused others, whether women, ethnic and religious minorities, customers, clients, contractors, employees or business adversaries. There's just too much there to overlook.
It all boils down to power.
If you get President Trump you will get the unsavory human being that has stepped on people for his entire career. I don't have enough faith that checks an balances would curb Trump's inner Mussolini from stifling opposition. He has a history of using lawsuits or the threat of them to intimidate business opponents. It's no stretch to expect that his AG would be busy doing the same kind of thing.
There's a difference between a groundswell of disgust among men, which I agree does exist, and a breadth and depth of disgust which your own words demonstrate is still far off, Look, I agree that this election should be about other issues and it behooves Hillary to make her case on these (which she does, and better than in the handwaving abstractions that Trump uses).
Your comment boils down to this: you confine Trump's flaws to the way he deals with women and you are prepared to overlook them for what you perceive as the greater good of the nation.
As if that were not bad enough, Trump's sexism is but one part of how he has in general abused others, whether women, ethnic and religious minorities, customers, clients, contractors, employees or business adversaries. There's just too much there to overlook.
It all boils down to power.
If you get President Trump you will get the unsavory human being that has stepped on people for his entire career. I don't have enough faith that checks an balances would curb Trump's inner Mussolini from stifling opposition. He has a history of using lawsuits or the threat of them to intimidate business opponents. It's no stretch to expect that his AG would be busy doing the same kind of thing.
258
Really, Richard?
"The disintegration of the American family has developed apace with precisely those efforts to make gender roles indistinguishable"
I would probably enjoy your efforts to back up your assertion with pointers to actual studies over the past 60 years that have reached that conclusion, but I won't hold my breath.
The single most important factor in (what you call) the disintegration of the classical American family of the first half of the 20th century is: the growth of the two-parent working family, caused by the growing realization that middle and lower class families (using economic definitions) could no longer survive on a single adult income.
Please stop trying to equate the societal changes in classical (meaning old) definitions of gender roles, with the destruction of the American Nuclear Family.
It ain't because mommy is working, it's because when mommy AND daddy are both working there is still barely enough to go around.
As a single father of two teenagers, the older one about to become a young woman of 18, (her mother died 3 years ago) I understand what gender roles are and how they are filled. I think your file cabinet of knowledge is missing a few important folders.
"The disintegration of the American family has developed apace with precisely those efforts to make gender roles indistinguishable"
I would probably enjoy your efforts to back up your assertion with pointers to actual studies over the past 60 years that have reached that conclusion, but I won't hold my breath.
The single most important factor in (what you call) the disintegration of the classical American family of the first half of the 20th century is: the growth of the two-parent working family, caused by the growing realization that middle and lower class families (using economic definitions) could no longer survive on a single adult income.
Please stop trying to equate the societal changes in classical (meaning old) definitions of gender roles, with the destruction of the American Nuclear Family.
It ain't because mommy is working, it's because when mommy AND daddy are both working there is still barely enough to go around.
As a single father of two teenagers, the older one about to become a young woman of 18, (her mother died 3 years ago) I understand what gender roles are and how they are filled. I think your file cabinet of knowledge is missing a few important folders.
19
Your use of "perceived" sexism is troubling as it suggests that maybe there isn't really any sexism here. The depth of these comments also speak to Trump's attitude towards women. Research of world economies shows that those countries who actively promote women's education and participation in business and government fair better economically (often regardless of the political system of the country). Trump has made it clear that this is not an issue of his (for that matter, other than taking down the opposition what is?). As for the family structure, it has everything to do with the economic health of working and middle class families. I saw this first hand as a teacher in a disadvantaged area. As wealth has concentrated in the upper régions and these families have suffered, parents need to take second jobs to make ends meet or both parents work, leaving less room for the supervision and care for children. Both Republican and Democratic governments have contributed to this concentration so this idea of "ideological interest" suggests that you believe it is all about loyalty to one party while demonizing another. Personally, I think the day that bipartisan become a bad word is the day that the US lost its soul. The first step toward gaining it back is to make sure that devils like Trump who have no experience and business being in government in the first place and who have no record of working with people from the other side do not get anywhere near the White House.
11
The world has changed since I was a teenager. Back then, boys may have said nasty things about girls but mostly in a generic sense. I don't recall boys saying bad things about girls they actually liked and wanted to have a relationship with. Most importantly, I don't remember boys bragging about scoring with the girls they dated. That was hush-hush and most probably didn't score anyway.
Today, those social norms have collapsed. I started streaming programs from Amazon Prime and each series always starts with a gratuitous, obligatory sex scene. It doesn't matter what the theme is about. The clothes come off and the humping begins. Then the plot unfolds.
We have horrible rap music that denigrates and objectifies women and girls. No outcry against it. Why not? Bad is bad, gross is gross. The kids think this is music. It is not.
There is now tremendous pressure on boys to score, much more than when I was young. Everybody's doing it so why aren't you? What's wrong with you? You mean you are still a virgin at 15? I would imagine that pressure is also felt by the girls too.
So we have a popular culture where sex is its focus from puberty on.
I have interacted with a lot of young, 20 something females (aerobics) and man have they changed. In my day, talking was just talking. Now, talking is just a prelude to intercourse. The only reason to talk is to hook up. This is nuts. Can't we become friends? Isn't being friends the whole idea of talking?
Today, those social norms have collapsed. I started streaming programs from Amazon Prime and each series always starts with a gratuitous, obligatory sex scene. It doesn't matter what the theme is about. The clothes come off and the humping begins. Then the plot unfolds.
We have horrible rap music that denigrates and objectifies women and girls. No outcry against it. Why not? Bad is bad, gross is gross. The kids think this is music. It is not.
There is now tremendous pressure on boys to score, much more than when I was young. Everybody's doing it so why aren't you? What's wrong with you? You mean you are still a virgin at 15? I would imagine that pressure is also felt by the girls too.
So we have a popular culture where sex is its focus from puberty on.
I have interacted with a lot of young, 20 something females (aerobics) and man have they changed. In my day, talking was just talking. Now, talking is just a prelude to intercourse. The only reason to talk is to hook up. This is nuts. Can't we become friends? Isn't being friends the whole idea of talking?
256
The entire history of the human race demonstrates that sex is of primary interest to anyone, male or female, who reaches puberty. This is not new, nor is it news.
The only thing that is ever "new" about sex is how it is viewed by current culture. In human history, many cultures have celebrated sexual activity as one of the rites of passage from childhood to adulthood. If a girl got pregnant, (even at 12) she was declared a woman. A boy was now a man if he fathered a child.
In other cultures sex was kept from public view, and if it was discussed at all, those discussions were kept extremely private, often only among those of one or the other gender.
We can argue what sexual morality is for days on end, but what matters most is how any society views sex - at that exact moment in history.
The only thing that is ever "new" about sex is how it is viewed by current culture. In human history, many cultures have celebrated sexual activity as one of the rites of passage from childhood to adulthood. If a girl got pregnant, (even at 12) she was declared a woman. A boy was now a man if he fathered a child.
In other cultures sex was kept from public view, and if it was discussed at all, those discussions were kept extremely private, often only among those of one or the other gender.
We can argue what sexual morality is for days on end, but what matters most is how any society views sex - at that exact moment in history.
1
At 76 I find that my favorite films are British or the ones I take my 7 year old granddaughter to.
2