I went back to graduate school at Penn State in 1997 at age 49. I was working any jobs I could find and was almost broke. I'd work two day jobs and then go to school in the evenings. At the end of 19 months I received a master's degree in public administration and a master's certification in government financial management. The cost was about $1,500 a semester. I went for 6 semesters taking as many courses as possible. Other older folks like myself, recently unemployed for many reasons and desperately needing to reinvent themselves for the last part of life, also earned their post-graduate degrees at night while working all day. I also worked weekends just to make ends meet.
Despite the terribly difficult tasks of working and night school I persevered. The last 17 years of my working career was as a civil service employee in IT and finance for the PA Dept. of Transportation. I restarted my life through education.
I'm certain that there are many, many people who have experienced or are experiencing what I did. Your primary career ends, abruptly and you must reinvent yourself or do no-nothing jobs for the rest of your life. Graduate school
at any price was a god-send. Penn State was affordable and accessible.
What I know now is that too many people don't have the good fortune or ability to push themselves to seek new high level job skills because of the high price of education. Education must be affordable and accessible.
Despite the terribly difficult tasks of working and night school I persevered. The last 17 years of my working career was as a civil service employee in IT and finance for the PA Dept. of Transportation. I restarted my life through education.
I'm certain that there are many, many people who have experienced or are experiencing what I did. Your primary career ends, abruptly and you must reinvent yourself or do no-nothing jobs for the rest of your life. Graduate school
at any price was a god-send. Penn State was affordable and accessible.
What I know now is that too many people don't have the good fortune or ability to push themselves to seek new high level job skills because of the high price of education. Education must be affordable and accessible.
6
For 35 years (after a spell in college and a little longer in Naval electronics & nuclear power schools), I began to do instructional design, course development, tech-writing, teaching, and tech support for major US companies (computers, system hardware, telecommunications, laser micro-machining systems, etc.). My job was to reduce meantime to repair in manufacturing, field, and repair depots. I also cross trained design teams and uncovered new product problems.
I wrote thousands of pages of explanations that cut classes: 5 weeks to 2 days, 6 weeks to 1, 10 months to 1 week with major measurable productivity increases. Managers laid off employees to cut costs and claim increased profit. Guess why they later went out of business?
My motivation: insatiable curiosity, a desire to make complex things seem simple, and an urge to share what I learn with people who want to be useful. In the process I learned a lot about organizational behavior. Not good.
Sixty years ago, teacher's colleges, nursing schools, agricultural colleges, and apprentice programs served the public good for earnest money.
The generosity of the GI Bill brought about the greatest period of sustained prosperity in US history.
During Vietnam era, education was a ransom to avoid the draft. Then we decided it was a personal capital expense rather than a societal investment and grew greedy. In the 80's we admitted it.
Greed is psychopathic: unfeeling, uncaring.
Those who have least, lose most -- sons. Nation.
I wrote thousands of pages of explanations that cut classes: 5 weeks to 2 days, 6 weeks to 1, 10 months to 1 week with major measurable productivity increases. Managers laid off employees to cut costs and claim increased profit. Guess why they later went out of business?
My motivation: insatiable curiosity, a desire to make complex things seem simple, and an urge to share what I learn with people who want to be useful. In the process I learned a lot about organizational behavior. Not good.
Sixty years ago, teacher's colleges, nursing schools, agricultural colleges, and apprentice programs served the public good for earnest money.
The generosity of the GI Bill brought about the greatest period of sustained prosperity in US history.
During Vietnam era, education was a ransom to avoid the draft. Then we decided it was a personal capital expense rather than a societal investment and grew greedy. In the 80's we admitted it.
Greed is psychopathic: unfeeling, uncaring.
Those who have least, lose most -- sons. Nation.
7
'Tests are proctored by a company that locks down a student’s computer remotely and uses its camera to check for cheating.'
Rather creepy.
Rather creepy.
3
You may buy an education, but you will lose the respect of your colleagues. I cannot imagine ABET approving any on-line engineering curriculum that does not included hands-on laboratory training that includes health and safety training. And what chemical plant or refinery would want them making plans or walking the grounds without adequate training.
4
Why bother paying $7000 ?
Online certificates can be bought for closer to $100 - and they're probably worth about as much ...
Online certificates can be bought for closer to $100 - and they're probably worth about as much ...
1
Once upon a time, public universities had no tuition at all. Of course in those days, states were willing to fund higher education and people were willing to pay taxes for the common good. That, and less top heavy bureaucratic administration, is a much better model for colleges and universities.
4
What fascinates me here is the fact that that the average community college degree granted costs $45,000 when you factor in the $86 billion that state and local taxpayers give to public universities each year to fund their annual operating losses. So a 60 credit degree works out to $750 per credit (or $2,250 per 3 credit course) in actual cost.
Maybe the community college system needs to rethink their cost structure.....
Maybe the community college system needs to rethink their cost structure.....
1
Let's not forget it was BERNIE SANDERS, not Hillary, that took on the topic of student debt with any degree of care and seriousness, and it is only JILL STEIN that is truly offering a solution for the millions of students under a lifetime yoke of strangling debt. Vote your conscience, vote for what's best, vote for what is right, and not for the lesser of 2 evils.
2
a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Trump
10
I can't remember either Hillary or Bernie detailing how they would pay for free college tuition. I'm all for it. But a vague "haters Tax" on Wall. St., which was the basis for almost everything in the Sander's Campaign, seems like a bunch of sour grapes. We'll never be able to tax and regulate our way to prosperity. So, instead of flatly stating that Wall St. and big business will "pay their fair share" for the common man, Progressive Democrats need to start embracing business, free markets and the amazing technology that pushes modern civil society. You can be for universal health care, free college tution AND free flowing markets and money. Instead of trying to stifle business and markets for the sake of public education, why not push them to grow exponentially. Then that "Hater's Tax" becomes a much bigger piece of pie for everyone. Dems are on the right track in a lot of ways. Except when it comes to helping businesses. It will continue to be a albatross hanging around their necks. So the whole message needs to be rephrased. Progressive Dems wrap their arms around and hug Capitalism rather than let it terrify them. Free college tution and a universal single payer healthcare system could be two huge keys to a truly free, educated and upwardly mobile American Society. Imagine how easy it would be to move from job to job if you knew you couldn't lose your coverage.
1
Having never attended college or university I've enjoyed several good well paid careers in engineering and large high tech firms. In no way is that meant to denigrate those who work to earn a degree or the university system. Almost every person I've worked with had advanced degrees. It's not because I'm particularly smart. I simply looked for and found areas that interest me and then studied and created a portfolio of examples, presentations and ideas. Over the years you accumulate expertise, colleagues and professionalism. Projects and businesses just need someone who can do a job, work well with others, innovate, communicate and add value to the enterprise.
2
Uh-oh! Looks like someone has broken ranks with the Education Industrial Cartel.
2
The old business adage generally still holds: you get what you pay for. It is really sad to see State universities struggling to compete with private prestigious ones. The democratic ideal that education must be accessible to the masses is a casualty of the push to run universities as money-making corporations. Graduate schools built with national human and economic resources are becoming the domain of rich foreign students whose governments can pay the tuition to acquire quickly and cheaply the intellectual and technological wealth that took so long and so much work to attain. American graduate students more and more must content themselves with cheap, high risk, online courses and degrees.
4
Dealing with students one at a time and explaining mathematics at a distance is extremely time-consuming. I taught intermediate algebra twice this way and ti took me far longer and with far worse outcomes for my students than it I met with them in person.
There is a benefit to face to face contact, and I was surprised to see the organization of local study groups. Generally, the model promoted is while everyone else is in bed, and in one's pajamas, an individual experience. In this case, perhaps more contact is seen because students aren't gathering outside of class, each day, which is what happens with traditional graduate students. I don't see it as sustainable unless additional faculty are hired. Non-contact time is usually for research, and even scheduled office hours are really research time. Schools will have to hire more faculty, either devoted to on-line instruction, or teaching fewer courses in response to research requirements and increased contact time.
All schools are going to be forced into more on-line graduate offerings, especially as the number of undergraduate students with on-line experience increases. Due to tuition reimbursement, older students are the norm in many graduate programs, such as business, where a graduate degree is desired for career advancement in a non-academic career path. A student can become employed, with a real paycheck and benefits, and take advantage of tuition reimbursement to stay out of debt.
However, it is all driven by money. How many on-line graduate programs exist for social sciences?
Graduate school was once viewed as only for academics, then, as tuition reimbursement created a revenue stream, programs were offered for people wishing to excel in a career path. .
All schools are going to be forced into more on-line graduate offerings, especially as the number of undergraduate students with on-line experience increases. Due to tuition reimbursement, older students are the norm in many graduate programs, such as business, where a graduate degree is desired for career advancement in a non-academic career path. A student can become employed, with a real paycheck and benefits, and take advantage of tuition reimbursement to stay out of debt.
However, it is all driven by money. How many on-line graduate programs exist for social sciences?
Graduate school was once viewed as only for academics, then, as tuition reimbursement created a revenue stream, programs were offered for people wishing to excel in a career path. .
Yes it is a great idea. However ter job market must accept these degrees as if the person attended college. The final goal is to use the education to get a good job. You need to get the industries behind this.
4
I took two online classes via Boston University to finish a graduate certificate program when I had to travel to Germany and did not want to fall behind on my coursework. I was amazed on how challenging the classes were (project management). The online discussions force you to read all of the material and you are required to discuss every single one of your classmate's arguments in the discussion. literally, you cannot hide or just wing it by showing up. I also enjoyed that there was a bigger focus on learning the software than in my classroom classes. Also, it takes a lot of discipline to get online and complete the assignments/discussions on a timely manner. I was truly impressed on how much time/work it took to finish these online courses, more than my classroom courses. Needless to say, I was back in the classroom! Don't knock on online courses until you've taken one (from a reputable university, that is).
6
Yes, online work can be a lot harder, for the reasons you give. I am trying to get over the Schadenfreude I feel when students realize this. I "blend" in some courses, replacing some class days with online assignments, precisely to see what's going on in the minds of those students who show up but never participate, whether out of shyness or apathy.
1
This discussion is 20 years old. In 1996, while studying for a MSc in Computer Assisted Learning in UK, we debated the merits and limitations of online education. One conclusion was that on-campus education would be for the rich while online education would be for those financially challenged. A divide in Higher Education qualifications and recognition would result. This has been coming for a long time.
2
@Dr. Michael Valence: "One conclusion was that on-campus education would be for the rich while online education would be for those financially challenged. A divide in Higher Education qualifications and recognition would result. "
Online education would presumably seem to appeal to all DHH (deaf and hard of hearing) folks regardless of whether they were themselves rich or financially challenged.
One benefit of online education is that for DHH folks they would not need to worry about ASL (American Sign Language) interpreters or notetakers. And for those who don't use ASL, they would not need to worry about arranging for CARTs (communication access realtime translation). DHH online students would have direct and easy access to what their teacher or fellow students said, by simply reading what they posted in the online classroom.
Online education would presumably seem to appeal to all DHH (deaf and hard of hearing) folks regardless of whether they were themselves rich or financially challenged.
One benefit of online education is that for DHH folks they would not need to worry about ASL (American Sign Language) interpreters or notetakers. And for those who don't use ASL, they would not need to worry about arranging for CARTs (communication access realtime translation). DHH online students would have direct and easy access to what their teacher or fellow students said, by simply reading what they posted in the online classroom.
1
When I did my MA ten years ago my British colleagues paid £3,000 for their 'real', in-person degree at a top 10 school. As a foreigner I had to pay £10,000.
If the US wants to be serious about college tuition costs it needs the federal government to step up and shoulder the burden. Hoping for 'market solutions' or cutesy 'innovations' and watered-down online courses will not cut it.
As for online education....it can never be the same as the real thing. I can respect that the Oxbridge system is a bit different, but my students generally get 7 hours a term (in 8-week terms) of 1-1 or 1-2 attention. By the end of a term I know them, I know their writing style and habits, I know how their analytical mind works, and I've had a chance to really push them intellectually....to force them to defend their ideas and see history (my subject) in a new light. This level of attention simply cannot be replicated online. Same with seminars, same even with lectures, in my opinion.
Every lecture or seminar I've ever given has been in some way unique. We professors are performers, we respond to the audience, we makes quips or off-the-cuff comments, sometimes we follow the muse into the unknown mid-lecture and accidentally come out with an interesting new perspective or comparison that even we hadn't thought of before. You simply cannot bottle that and sell it online. Listening to music in the car can never compare with being at a concert in person.
If the US wants to be serious about college tuition costs it needs the federal government to step up and shoulder the burden. Hoping for 'market solutions' or cutesy 'innovations' and watered-down online courses will not cut it.
As for online education....it can never be the same as the real thing. I can respect that the Oxbridge system is a bit different, but my students generally get 7 hours a term (in 8-week terms) of 1-1 or 1-2 attention. By the end of a term I know them, I know their writing style and habits, I know how their analytical mind works, and I've had a chance to really push them intellectually....to force them to defend their ideas and see history (my subject) in a new light. This level of attention simply cannot be replicated online. Same with seminars, same even with lectures, in my opinion.
Every lecture or seminar I've ever given has been in some way unique. We professors are performers, we respond to the audience, we makes quips or off-the-cuff comments, sometimes we follow the muse into the unknown mid-lecture and accidentally come out with an interesting new perspective or comparison that even we hadn't thought of before. You simply cannot bottle that and sell it online. Listening to music in the car can never compare with being at a concert in person.
1
You are so right about the performance aspect of face-to-face classes, and how they can lead to new ideas and perspectives. It's one of the things I enjoy most about teaching. Yesterday my lesson plan for one of my classes was totally derailed--in a good way--by the questions students were asking. In another class, a story I've taught for years suddenly appeared in a new light.
But I can tell you as someone in public higher education that state governments have long since stopped funding public higher education at the levels they used to, which is why tuition has gone up at public universities. Costs used to be shared among taxpayers, keeping tuition down; now, state governments fund education much less and so the cost gets pushed back to...the taxpayers who want to go to/send their kids to public universities.
If the federal and state governments could both contribute to funding public higher education at respectable levels, that would be tremendous. One can dream.
But I can tell you as someone in public higher education that state governments have long since stopped funding public higher education at the levels they used to, which is why tuition has gone up at public universities. Costs used to be shared among taxpayers, keeping tuition down; now, state governments fund education much less and so the cost gets pushed back to...the taxpayers who want to go to/send their kids to public universities.
If the federal and state governments could both contribute to funding public higher education at respectable levels, that would be tremendous. One can dream.
1
I am a student in the program and I love it.
The website of the program is http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/
There is a talk about it by the dean who founded this program:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaMkOZzOv3c&feature=youtu.be
The website of the program is http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/
There is a talk about it by the dean who founded this program:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaMkOZzOv3c&feature=youtu.be
8
If MOOCs mash up woth PlentyOfFish (or other online dating sites, you can relive your freshman year of college :) Kidding aside online higher ed is expanding. The original for profit enrollment mills (not diploma mills, as too few graduated) are being replaced by more prestigious universities entering this space. A key component is the amount of student to student and student to professor interaction. Social Learning.
Is it asynchronous only or occasionally synchronous (live, "face to face")??
Most moocs are one-off classes or certifications. The Georgia Tech mooc is a full masters degree. That's a differentiator.
Is it asynchronous only or occasionally synchronous (live, "face to face")??
Most moocs are one-off classes or certifications. The Georgia Tech mooc is a full masters degree. That's a differentiator.
There's high demand for cheap, prestigious degrees in computer science?! Who would've guessed?!
6
Worth asking: is this scalable when you factor in the cost of salaried faculty? Or is this one of those army-of-adjuncts-each-teaching-six-classes things?
3
Also known as the community college experience.
I've been very fortunate in my education. But even though I had wonderful teachers at all levels (h.s., college, graduate) the real growth came from the interaction with fellow students. We challenged each other, found flaws in each others work, gave confidence when the going went tough and in the end shared an educational journey. In short the social experiences are what mattered. I know there are online forums and such but I wonder if it would be the same and the students of an equal caliber to growing together.
3
Had the same thought but the article mentions student groups in cities getting together.
Would like to know more from current and former students. But I'm highly intrigued!!!
Would like to know more from current and former students. But I'm highly intrigued!!!
The proof is the graduation rate. How does it compare with on-campus? Why wasn't that asked?
3
Good question. But remember this was only started in 2014. I wouldn't expect part time online people to finish a problem in the traditional 12-18 month term. Many famous people in technology dropped out of college because it was slowing them down. But far more important in technology than graduation is the question "What are they doing with it in 2 or 5 years?"
5
An on-line degree in computing is very logical.
6
Careful what you may wish for.
When this becomes the norm they will push up the prices.
And it cannot be as good as face to face.
Online students, missing cameraderie, peer pressure and the urgency of now withdraw at rates many times those of class goers.
When this becomes the norm they will push up the prices.
And it cannot be as good as face to face.
Online students, missing cameraderie, peer pressure and the urgency of now withdraw at rates many times those of class goers.
3
Does the Masters Degree say Online Degree,because I plan to work with it overseas,and they don't accept Online Degrees at all?please help!
Emad wrote, "Does the Masters Degree say Online Degree,because I plan to work with it overseas,and they don't accept Online Degrees at all?please help!"
Dear Emad: Contact the university directly instead of asking random newspaper readers. And consider this your first lesson in becoming an adult.
Dear Emad: Contact the university directly instead of asking random newspaper readers. And consider this your first lesson in becoming an adult.
6
No
Diploma is identical to on campus degree
Diploma is identical to on campus degree
1
No.
The diploma does not mention "online".
It is identical to the one who study on campus.
The program is essentially identical to the one offered on campus.
The diploma does not mention "online".
It is identical to the one who study on campus.
The program is essentially identical to the one offered on campus.
We're going to see a lot of big name colleges following in this trend because the economics of a few schools being successful with this model will create the incentive for others to follow. Not Harvard or Yale, but once a Florida State, Michigan or University of Texas gets into the mix, game over. Georgia Tech becomes the catalyst.
Many of the disciplines taught in college are products of studying, investigation and feedback. Sitting in a room of twenty students with a back and forth discussion moderated by the professor is one way to do it, but not the only way. Online provides direction; providing a clear syllabus of the topic, diversified reading material, frequent "pop-quizzes", writing and critical thinking, and an infrastructure provided by the campus to evaluate the writing and critical thinking. As long as the college can fulfill this last part, all that remains is the motivated student. It probably is not a model that works well with the 18-22 year-old crowd but is a long-overdue format for the entry-level professional.
Many of the disciplines taught in college are products of studying, investigation and feedback. Sitting in a room of twenty students with a back and forth discussion moderated by the professor is one way to do it, but not the only way. Online provides direction; providing a clear syllabus of the topic, diversified reading material, frequent "pop-quizzes", writing and critical thinking, and an infrastructure provided by the campus to evaluate the writing and critical thinking. As long as the college can fulfill this last part, all that remains is the motivated student. It probably is not a model that works well with the 18-22 year-old crowd but is a long-overdue format for the entry-level professional.
5
It costs less if you call the number in the matchbook. On-line classes are just a cut-and-paste method to dupe your way into a 'degree'. Have YOU spoken with any intelligent 'graduates' recently.
1
Thankfully this isn't true. I've spoken with many intelligent graduates recently. Also, remember, punctuation goes inside the quotation mark.
9
'Also, remember, punctuation goes inside the quotation mark.'
This rule is obsolete. Nowdays professional copy editors typically give one the choice of placing the punctuation inside or outside, as long as one is consistent. Outside is more logical in this case since the scope of quotation is narrower than the scope of the sentence as a whole.
This rule is obsolete. Nowdays professional copy editors typically give one the choice of placing the punctuation inside or outside, as long as one is consistent. Outside is more logical in this case since the scope of quotation is narrower than the scope of the sentence as a whole.
3
Bern: That can be a problem in onsite degrees as well so its not a new problem at all. That is for the interview process to weed out.
The very best for all of our students at every grade level should include more programs from the best schools in the nation. On-line education is the future now!
6
Good article and hope that the trend toward conducting, what appears to be high quality, degree classes on-line is a move toward making higher education more affordable.
I do agree with another person in this thread that it is not Mr. Isbell but rather Dr. Isbell and he should be afforded that respect.
I do agree with another person in this thread that it is not Mr. Isbell but rather Dr. Isbell and he should be afforded that respect.
9
This is great for someone like me. I have an undergraduate BA from a brick-n-mortar institution, and now I work full time. I love online learning opportunities. You can always call a person or video chat if you need more than written assistance. This would not work for medicine, but computer science and similar areas of study, this is perfect. I'm also over 40 and the "college experience" has been done, and I have no desire to relive it.
5
This model could translate to a 4 year medical education partially. A traditional medical education consists of 2 pre-clinical years with classes in huge lecture halls for ~100 students. Most schools record the lectures and many students never set foot in a classroom choosing to watch sub-par traditional lectures from home.
A better way would be a more interactive learning environment like on edX for the first 2 pre-clinical years. Medical education is slow to change though and the $40-50k per year tuition is too much of a cash cow that pass by.
A better way would be a more interactive learning environment like on edX for the first 2 pre-clinical years. Medical education is slow to change though and the $40-50k per year tuition is too much of a cash cow that pass by.
4
Our college tuition has gone up fast since colleges started to run colleges like corporations. The Georgia Tech/Uacity/AT&T's joint master's program has offered students a much more affordable alternative.
https://www.udacity.com/georgia-tech
Two Stanford professors founded
https://www.coursera.org
which are still mostly free unless you want a certificate upon completion the course for $39 - 79 per certificate. If more people can be educated, the world will be a better place. I am sure MIT/Harvard/EdX will succeed in attracting talented people around the world.
https://www.udacity.com/georgia-tech
Two Stanford professors founded
https://www.coursera.org
which are still mostly free unless you want a certificate upon completion the course for $39 - 79 per certificate. If more people can be educated, the world will be a better place. I am sure MIT/Harvard/EdX will succeed in attracting talented people around the world.
5
This is misleading. For most universities, to get a master's degree in a STEM field you are funded by a research or teaching assistantship. The vast majority of students on campus are receiving around $30k a year to attend, not paying $50k . Most schools of this caliber will not accept a student that they cannot fund.
7
This is true at University of California campuses too but only for STEM degrees, I think. Plus the programs have many applicants.
5
Kudos to Dr. Isbell and Georgia Tech for bringing what is apparently a quality program to more people by going 100% online and lowering the price. There are so many people who can't afford higher education, but who have the talent, the drive, and the ability to do more with their lives. Let's hope more top-tier colleges look to this model. I could not afford graduate school after finishing my undergraduate degree and then job responsibilities and family placed me in a position where attendance at a traditional graduate school was impossible. Had we had the Internet in those days and if these classes were available, I would have jumped at the chance.
For those who mock the MOOCs, my experience is different. I've taken a number of MOOCs. Yes, they are sometimes watered-down courses with canned content, but many MOOC users only want an insight into an area with which they are not familiar. I've used MOOCs to gain insight into areas I would have studied in college if I had been able to take extra courses. I've also used them to improve my background in areas relating to a job or an employer.
I have one nit to pick, though. I applaud the NYT for using titles for people: Mr. Ms., Mrs., etc. That is so much more professional than referring to someone only by their last name. Since Charles Isbell is a PhD, shouldn't the NYT refer to him as Dr. Isbell instead of Mr. Isbell?
Great story. Thanks.
For those who mock the MOOCs, my experience is different. I've taken a number of MOOCs. Yes, they are sometimes watered-down courses with canned content, but many MOOC users only want an insight into an area with which they are not familiar. I've used MOOCs to gain insight into areas I would have studied in college if I had been able to take extra courses. I've also used them to improve my background in areas relating to a job or an employer.
I have one nit to pick, though. I applaud the NYT for using titles for people: Mr. Ms., Mrs., etc. That is so much more professional than referring to someone only by their last name. Since Charles Isbell is a PhD, shouldn't the NYT refer to him as Dr. Isbell instead of Mr. Isbell?
Great story. Thanks.
17
Lets hope the business model from Georgia Tech gets noticed. The model is too be embraced and improved by other colleges and universities to provide a first-rate education for a reasonable cost for our citizens. Video services can effectively bring the group project experience to the student. Many businesses today use video meetings with success to solve problems by team members in a variety of locations. Attitudes about the perceived quality of the degree can change with time and a continued effort of providers to dedicate to quality experience and reporting the results. Its time for Americans to innovate the higher experience and meet the demand.
1
I have tried taking online classes and I always end up quitting because they are just not the same as taking a class in person. After working all day on a computer, the last thing I want to do is come home and sit on the computer some more. With an online class, you don't get that personal interaction that biologically we find so necessary and satisfying. There is something to be said about being in a class and interacting with your teacher and classmates in person.
With that said, if a person needs or wants to get a degree while working and/or raising a family, then I think online courses are a good option because they provide a person with flexibility that an in person class does not provide.
As for higher education overall, I think it it has become a joke. Personally I learned more from interning and working than from my classes. Life experience is the best teacher.
As someone else said in the comments, we put too much value on where someone graduated from than on what they know or what they can do.
With that said, if a person needs or wants to get a degree while working and/or raising a family, then I think online courses are a good option because they provide a person with flexibility that an in person class does not provide.
As for higher education overall, I think it it has become a joke. Personally I learned more from interning and working than from my classes. Life experience is the best teacher.
As someone else said in the comments, we put too much value on where someone graduated from than on what they know or what they can do.
5
"Life experience" doesn't teach finance.
2
SMH. My Executive MBA at the University of Memphis was $10,000 total, in-state, for a two-year program in the 1980s.
Charging whatever the market will bear, as opposed to fair pricing, is killing our young people.
Charging whatever the market will bear, as opposed to fair pricing, is killing our young people.
11
Time moves forward. In reading the comments, we can see the last vestiges of 20th century thinking in regards to education. Those who believe that an online education is of less value are unlikely to admit that they have a great deal of skin the game. Whether it is the adjunct professor in fear of obsolescence or the brick-and-mortar snob wishing to keep the view above from a high horse, there is circle jerk of denial going on. Old, white men in suit coats smoking pipes and discussing The Clasdics is no longer the template for the college professor and rightly so. That time passed. The idyllic image of eager minds coalescing around The Professor needs to go as well. Believing that an online degree is inherently inferior is based primarily on assumption and ego as opposed to knowledge.
Should the acknowledgement of a great education constricted by our desire to maintain the status quo? Or do we embrace and incorporate technological change? As someone who has earned multiple degrees encompassing both types (traditional and online), I can state unequivocally that those who dismiss an online education do so at their own peril and ignorance.
Stand on your lawn, shaking your indignant fist at the sky, and shout as much as you like about the supposed superiority of the physical campus. The rest of us are moving along with the times.
Should the acknowledgement of a great education constricted by our desire to maintain the status quo? Or do we embrace and incorporate technological change? As someone who has earned multiple degrees encompassing both types (traditional and online), I can state unequivocally that those who dismiss an online education do so at their own peril and ignorance.
Stand on your lawn, shaking your indignant fist at the sky, and shout as much as you like about the supposed superiority of the physical campus. The rest of us are moving along with the times.
9
I am retired. The company I worked for encouraged employees to take classes every year offered through an internal education program. The company went from classroom lecture and lab classes only in the beginning, to online and live video classes predominantly over the course of the 31 years I worked there. The most effective were the traditional classes. There was give and take between students in class and between students and instructor. The live video classes allowed periodic questions from students to instructor. The online classes allowed students to email questions to the instructors. The traditional classroom classes were the most rigorous and informative. The other two methods, well, you do learn something but they cover the material in less depth. I did not always complete all the lessons in the online classes due to work assignments. I do admit it was and is the wave of the future for post graduate and internal company technological education. You do actually learn something. I also found that one could learn technological information on the job by intensive reading of manuals and textbooks without a formal course of any sort. The problem with self learning without enrollment in a course is that one did not get credit with HR for self learning as one did when completing an online class on one's computer. The online classes were a great cost savings method for the company.
1
There was a recent segment on NPR's "On Point" about this same program. On that program, one of the administrators discussed how they were able to offer this program for such a low price. They "partnered" with Udacity (a for-profit) and AT&T and those companies took on much of the costs for the production of this program. So to say that "most prestigious colleges are sticking with the model that lets them offer degrees for $57,000 instead of the roughly $7000 that is costs at Georgia Tech" is a little misleading. The readers should know the complete funding sources for this program before people go off thinking they can get something for (almost) nothing.
http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2016/10/03/online-higher-education-revolution
http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2016/10/03/online-higher-education-revolution
31
Price the program at the minimum amount necessary to cover costs? What does that mean? I suspect it is tied to the direct educational expenses of the program, given that it is up and running, and that translates into the costs for the instructor, online TAs, and other staff involved in supporting the program. Unless Georgia Tech has a surplus of tenure line faculty, I suspect this also implies considerable use of adjuncts, who are relatively inexpensive around urban technical universities.
Could a school run such a loss leader program? Sure. Could some students learn from such a program and compete for quality jobs with such a degree? Again, it is quite possible. The catch is who such students would be. I bet they would be those who are skilled at learning, as evidenced by prior college success. Online programs can help those who already know how to learn.
What about the rest - those without prior college, those who are not as skilled at learning, those with less experience in a graduate school environment? This is the problem. Quality graduate education is hard and requires quality instruction, guidance, and support. It is not a standardizable product, despite Mr. Carey's focus on computer science. The actual costs of such programs, if they are to succeed for large numbers of needy students, will be high and there is no silver bullet. Mass enrollment trade schools will end up lowering starting salaries without solving the larger problem.
Could a school run such a loss leader program? Sure. Could some students learn from such a program and compete for quality jobs with such a degree? Again, it is quite possible. The catch is who such students would be. I bet they would be those who are skilled at learning, as evidenced by prior college success. Online programs can help those who already know how to learn.
What about the rest - those without prior college, those who are not as skilled at learning, those with less experience in a graduate school environment? This is the problem. Quality graduate education is hard and requires quality instruction, guidance, and support. It is not a standardizable product, despite Mr. Carey's focus on computer science. The actual costs of such programs, if they are to succeed for large numbers of needy students, will be high and there is no silver bullet. Mass enrollment trade schools will end up lowering starting salaries without solving the larger problem.
4
How about setting up banks of computers in large buildings where students can come and access the course--and take proctored exams in these buildings . The advantage would be that we would eliminate the need for one teacher for a small number of students, the lack of computers that some poorer families face, and the difficulty of making certain that the test taker is really the student who will be granted the degree. How much extra could it cost--especially if the computers are available throughout the morning, afternoon, and evening --and part of the night too. I also think that coming into the building will add a degree of socialization and lack of distractions that might face the enrollee who is in a totally non-disciplined environment.
1
We should be thankful that Georgia Tech has forsworn greed for greater education; how cool is that?
7
To put a word in for SUNY, back in the day, tuition was $350 per semester for NYS residents. That ridiculously small tuition was completely covered by my NYS Regents Scholarship. And just about everyone who had the grades to get into SUNY's most competitive campuses (Albany, Buffalo, Stony Brook and Binghamton) had a Regents scholarship. Fast forward to my graduate studies at NC State, from 1997 -- 2001, in-state tuition was $3,500. I can't image what it is now.
6
This reminds me of the Harvard Classics, a way for a poor lad to get a liberal arts education. 15 minutes a day with a five foot book shelf.
I think it is great that education be accessible at a reasonable cost, I don't know why states can't provide this service now. Of course you could always read and research on line or at the library, but part of what a degree is about is a milestone of accomplishment. Something you can or someone else can use to compare you with others. Are you skilled enough, is one question, are you dedicated enough is the other; both are answered with an appropriate degree. I know that I learn by reading, listening and by conversing with others. I hope these online classes give ample opportunity to converse, to share ideas. The downside is that students not meeting at a university will not get the interaction with others not in their classes. As an economics student I benefited from coffee conversations with botanists, architects , engineers and artists.
I think it is great that education be accessible at a reasonable cost, I don't know why states can't provide this service now. Of course you could always read and research on line or at the library, but part of what a degree is about is a milestone of accomplishment. Something you can or someone else can use to compare you with others. Are you skilled enough, is one question, are you dedicated enough is the other; both are answered with an appropriate degree. I know that I learn by reading, listening and by conversing with others. I hope these online classes give ample opportunity to converse, to share ideas. The downside is that students not meeting at a university will not get the interaction with others not in their classes. As an economics student I benefited from coffee conversations with botanists, architects , engineers and artists.
5
States cannot provide this, and many other services, because of the decades long tax cutting that has occurred since the 1970's and spread from CA to the entire nation. Perhaps we can look forward to this philosophy being discredited in the future.
5
Some of us are old enough to remember when the University of California offered next-to-free tuition. I received a Master's Degree there when the program was rated the top in the country, Yes, higher than Harvard. We protested when they raised tuition from $100 to $200 a year.
Tuition for my foreign-born husband was $800 a year, and the university made sure he had an on-campus job that paid him enough for the fee, books, and housing.
Have you noticed that college is free in Germany--even for foreign students?
Tuition for my foreign-born husband was $800 a year, and the university made sure he had an on-campus job that paid him enough for the fee, books, and housing.
Have you noticed that college is free in Germany--even for foreign students?
16
Higher education is free because the German Republic learned the lesson of World War II. Germany conquers hearts and minds by being better, not stronger. And it doesn't waste trillions of euros on all-things-military.
8
Since this is about academia, I guess it's okay to be fastidious:
The fees that Mr. Carey discusses are not for the degree, they're to allow you to take the course of study. If you succeed in the course of study, you get a degree for a nominal additional fee, if anything.
The main cost of the degree is actually the months of professional effort by the student to complete the course of study successfully.
The fees that Mr. Carey discusses are not for the degree, they're to allow you to take the course of study. If you succeed in the course of study, you get a degree for a nominal additional fee, if anything.
The main cost of the degree is actually the months of professional effort by the student to complete the course of study successfully.
I hope Mrs. Clinton's people pick up on this program. It sounds as if it solves a lot of problems.If it takes off, a lot of money could be saved, wouldn't that be a novelty!
2
The full value of classroom-based education cannot be replicated online just like it cannot be replicated in a textbook.
As an MBA student at NYU, I find that the most important aspect of my education is rarely the actual material. I can learn most of the material on my own from the textbook. I don't need NYU for that.
The important part is interacting with other smart people. It is collaborating on activities. It is actively participating in discussions. It is making presentations in front of the class. It is being forced to get out of my shell and out of my safe zone to apply material in creative ways on the spot. It is the overall experience of class.
This holds doubly true for soft-skills such as management where reading is nothing compared to applying.
Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that colleges are looking for innovative ways to provide lower cost education. You can certainly learn a ton through online programs, particularly with hard-skills like computer programming, finance, and math.
But online programs miss out on the intangibles, which are critical. The intangibles change the student more than the material does.
I see online as a great tool and option, but I do not see it as a viable replacement for a top notch education.
The classroom atmosphere still creates an enormous amount of value that cannot be reproduced on a computer.
As an MBA student at NYU, I find that the most important aspect of my education is rarely the actual material. I can learn most of the material on my own from the textbook. I don't need NYU for that.
The important part is interacting with other smart people. It is collaborating on activities. It is actively participating in discussions. It is making presentations in front of the class. It is being forced to get out of my shell and out of my safe zone to apply material in creative ways on the spot. It is the overall experience of class.
This holds doubly true for soft-skills such as management where reading is nothing compared to applying.
Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that colleges are looking for innovative ways to provide lower cost education. You can certainly learn a ton through online programs, particularly with hard-skills like computer programming, finance, and math.
But online programs miss out on the intangibles, which are critical. The intangibles change the student more than the material does.
I see online as a great tool and option, but I do not see it as a viable replacement for a top notch education.
The classroom atmosphere still creates an enormous amount of value that cannot be reproduced on a computer.
7
Dean Isbell is making the case that there can be *more* interaction in an online course. And *I* would make the case that we need to do more to prepare our students to collaborate online once they graduate anyway. Just what are these "intangibles" you mention that would not be part of a well-managed online class? Seriously, a good online class will foster collaboration and communication in many ways.
5
"The full value of classroom-based education cannot be replicated online just like it cannot be replicated in a textbook."
Quite an ignorant statement to begin with. It's that sort of sentiment that stifles progress in the direction made by Georgia Tech. This isn't an MBA degree -- it's computer science. The subject matter of computer science is already very much online -- whether it be accessing remote computational clusters via ssh or submitting assignments, Georgia Tech has replicated the gritty work of a legitimate computer science masters degree. Perhaps the showmanship that you describe -- "making presentations in front of the class" or things that hold "doubly true for soft-skills" like "management" -- is not what computer science is about. Maybe you have never taken a computer science course before. I won't hold that against you -- it's hard subject matter.
But other aspects you describe -- interacting with other smart people, actively participating in discussions, being forced out of your "shell" or "safe-zones" (apparently you have a few places to hide) -- are all aspects of this particular masters program created by Georgia Tech. I know, because I'm in it. You talk about intangibles, but just because something is physically intangible, doesn't mean that it's virtually so. (We also have meetups in our respective regions -- all student organized.) "Don't get me wrong", but there is still room for the traditional classroom experience, in undergrad.
Quite an ignorant statement to begin with. It's that sort of sentiment that stifles progress in the direction made by Georgia Tech. This isn't an MBA degree -- it's computer science. The subject matter of computer science is already very much online -- whether it be accessing remote computational clusters via ssh or submitting assignments, Georgia Tech has replicated the gritty work of a legitimate computer science masters degree. Perhaps the showmanship that you describe -- "making presentations in front of the class" or things that hold "doubly true for soft-skills" like "management" -- is not what computer science is about. Maybe you have never taken a computer science course before. I won't hold that against you -- it's hard subject matter.
But other aspects you describe -- interacting with other smart people, actively participating in discussions, being forced out of your "shell" or "safe-zones" (apparently you have a few places to hide) -- are all aspects of this particular masters program created by Georgia Tech. I know, because I'm in it. You talk about intangibles, but just because something is physically intangible, doesn't mean that it's virtually so. (We also have meetups in our respective regions -- all student organized.) "Don't get me wrong", but there is still room for the traditional classroom experience, in undergrad.
5
I agree about the student interactions and projects being a dynamic part of the learning process. in my reading about Georgia Tech I noticed that many students in the same region or city would form their own study groups. This might be a criteria for admission, that there is a viable number of students from a specific geographic area and facilitated by administration to foster study groups, through introductions and arrangements with local libraries for study space for example.
It takes initiative but he potential for a more scintillating and dynamic education thus becomes possible.
It takes initiative but he potential for a more scintillating and dynamic education thus becomes possible.
I took a Coursera.com music technology course from Georgia Tech, a collaboration of the music and computer science departments. It was outstanding. Most of the comments here, I think, underestimate what on-line education can be when it is done right. Also I note a somewhat chauvanistic defense of the classroom and campus model and unwillingness to recognize the drastic crisis of affordability.
5
Caveat emptor.
Say what you will, for many people it's the institution's name at the top of the diploma that determines the quality and quantity of opportunities in one's chosen field upon graduation. It may be true that nobody after your first hiring manager cares where you went to school, but in the professions that first job can set the course of your working life.
You get what you pay for.
Say what you will, for many people it's the institution's name at the top of the diploma that determines the quality and quantity of opportunities in one's chosen field upon graduation. It may be true that nobody after your first hiring manager cares where you went to school, but in the professions that first job can set the course of your working life.
You get what you pay for.
2
Davey
You are more than right.
I am an employer.
First thing I look up where the candidate graduated.
If he graduated from 201 st college in the USA I do not hire them at all .
But I have fired some MIT graduates too in the past . Statistically good collkeges produce good graduates . There are very few good graduates from bad colleges too .
You are more than right.
I am an employer.
First thing I look up where the candidate graduated.
If he graduated from 201 st college in the USA I do not hire them at all .
But I have fired some MIT graduates too in the past . Statistically good collkeges produce good graduates . There are very few good graduates from bad colleges too .
1
"The smallest amount necessary to cover its costs" was once the paradigm of taxpayer-supported institutions. Then, student loans emerged as a business model to exploit students and their families. All colleges and universities declared themselves to be "businesses", in order to justify exorbitant salaries and benefits for ever-increasing numbers of "administrators" and tenured faculty. State legislatures uncritically signed-off on this profit-making scheme.
Considering grade inflation and computer-based delivery of classroom lectures, there is little reason that the first two years of college can't be done on-line. Benefits would include reduced tuition costs and reduced CO2 emissions from wasted travel.
Considering grade inflation and computer-based delivery of classroom lectures, there is little reason that the first two years of college can't be done on-line. Benefits would include reduced tuition costs and reduced CO2 emissions from wasted travel.
8
RC
That really nice .
Have 2 first years at college online .
But young brains do need more attention of human being . They are still in the kindergarten .
I am all for online . But perfect online by top schools only .
That really nice .
Have 2 first years at college online .
But young brains do need more attention of human being . They are still in the kindergarten .
I am all for online . But perfect online by top schools only .
One can learn so many things at only the cost of going to the library, and the hours you put into it. Plus now there is so much free information, and lessons on the web. I guess colleges verify that you actually did it.
3
A four-year residential college experience can be a wonderful way to learn, and grow up. But you only have to drive by the huge parking lots at many colleges and universities to realize that isn't the case for a lot of students -- many are living at home, working 20 to 40 hours a week, driving to class and leaving almost immediately afterwards to get to work. Online courses at prices that reflect the cost of delivery can be a huge benefit. In a fast-changing world where we constantly hear about the need for life-long learning we might also reconsider reducing college to three years to allow time, and funds, for future education.
5
I am all for less expensive college and i think MOOCs can be very effective. That being said it seems somewhat alarming that no one uses on campus office hours. It makes me feel like people are really limiting face to face interactions and are being lazy and just want to do eveything online because it's easier. Will we have students grauduating who don't know how to have an actual conversation with their peers in the workplace? What is happening to basic social skills?
4
But look up still Johns Hopkins, Syracuse, USC charging the same fee for online courses while the cost is only 1/10 of the oncampus course .
Please you are there to make money but educate people to be useful to the world .
Please you are there to make money but educate people to be useful to the world .
2
Many professors do these kinds of classes and programs simply to prove they can. But they grossly misunderstand the intrinsic value and process and experience of education. It is not a ticket to be punched as quickly and efficiently as possible, and preferably while sitting at home at your laptop.
What a grim view of life that leads to! Sadly, it is the view we Americans seem to think is "smart." But as a building on the campus of Yale says, "festina lente."
College is a period of life that should be taken as a time of growth and reflection -- socially and intellectually.
What a shame we seem to want to get it over with as cheaply and quickly as possible.
This is *not* the answer to the crisis in US higher ed. This is a symptom of its forgetting of its true worth.
What a grim view of life that leads to! Sadly, it is the view we Americans seem to think is "smart." But as a building on the campus of Yale says, "festina lente."
College is a period of life that should be taken as a time of growth and reflection -- socially and intellectually.
What a shame we seem to want to get it over with as cheaply and quickly as possible.
This is *not* the answer to the crisis in US higher ed. This is a symptom of its forgetting of its true worth.
6
This is a graduate program. Many certainly with spouses and children. Many of these students are probably still somewhat hungover from their 4 undergraduate years of "growth and reflection".
8
Better words were never said in support of what is actually a massive scam. For some, college may be "formative", for others it's positively and literally mind-blowing. Far too many kids with no academic ability go to college. When they do, their main purpose seems to be to continue the mayhem of high school. It that's formative then disco is high art.
6
As an adjunct I am paid about $10/hr for the amount of work I actually do.
One flaw in on line courses is that they require/assume a baseline amount of maturity for students to engage with and complete the work. My undergraduates do not all possess a baseline of maturity. Part of my job is to support their growth towards maturity and to insist on that growth as we look each other in the eye in every class meeting . That is an essential part of the face-to-face educational process in my view.
One flaw in on line courses is that they require/assume a baseline amount of maturity for students to engage with and complete the work. My undergraduates do not all possess a baseline of maturity. Part of my job is to support their growth towards maturity and to insist on that growth as we look each other in the eye in every class meeting . That is an essential part of the face-to-face educational process in my view.
10
You are right .
Freshmen particularly need more care .
So MSprograms more suitable for online . It is so bt the way .
Freshmen particularly need more care .
So MSprograms more suitable for online . It is so bt the way .
1
This program is for graduate students.
2
You only get education out of a educational program what you are willing to put into it.
In the 1960s USC charged $500 for up to 18 units per semester. Now, according to the article its $5500 for three units. Taking inflation into consideration that cost is too high. Forget the cost of renting an apartment near campus. What you pay for is all the expense of the expanding physical plant, recruitment of highly desirable professors with name recognition who may not even teach, ever increasing executive salaries, etc. With online courses your cost are at a minimum. Physical plant needs are minimal and instructors have more flexibility. USC is wrong in charging a premium for online classes as are other institution. Georgia Tech has the right idea and a plan for the nation. It's to our benefit to have that model succeed. It gives the opportunity for all those angry white guys who believe the falsehoods of Trump who says he will
bring back their jobs, to retrain and get a shot at the American Dream without breaking the bank. I am sure they would put in the necessary sweat and energy to achieve success given the opportunity.
Such a low cost alternative nationwide is just the ticket!
In the 1960s USC charged $500 for up to 18 units per semester. Now, according to the article its $5500 for three units. Taking inflation into consideration that cost is too high. Forget the cost of renting an apartment near campus. What you pay for is all the expense of the expanding physical plant, recruitment of highly desirable professors with name recognition who may not even teach, ever increasing executive salaries, etc. With online courses your cost are at a minimum. Physical plant needs are minimal and instructors have more flexibility. USC is wrong in charging a premium for online classes as are other institution. Georgia Tech has the right idea and a plan for the nation. It's to our benefit to have that model succeed. It gives the opportunity for all those angry white guys who believe the falsehoods of Trump who says he will
bring back their jobs, to retrain and get a shot at the American Dream without breaking the bank. I am sure they would put in the necessary sweat and energy to achieve success given the opportunity.
Such a low cost alternative nationwide is just the ticket!
10
You're damned right there is a vast untapped market for highly affordable degrees from prestigious colleges and it begins with 18 year olds! Prostituting the brand is not a new concept. Colleges have been doing this for decades with day students held to one standard and night students earning the same degree for a fraction of the price while carrying a lighter academic load. On-line classes are part of our slide away from quality education.
It is extremely doubtful that the on-line students are assigned anywhere near the work load assigned to students in actual classrooms. Every project and test has the potential to be open book or a group project. Does anyone believe that on-campus students take all tests while consulting one another, their texts, and internet tutorials? Or perhaps developers of this degree believe all their on-line students refrain from such actions?
Furthermore, GA Tech is one of a growing number of schools which require freshman to live on campus. Like the working folks mentioned, many traditional undergraduates can't afford to live on campus either. Years ago, students could split rent on a nearby apartment at considerable savings over staying in the dorm. Now, if an incoming freshman can't afford dorm fees, he has two choices: pray for an additional housing scholarship or go away.
It's hardly surprising that this "innovation" comes to us from a state that is ranked at, what, maybe 48 out of 50?
It is extremely doubtful that the on-line students are assigned anywhere near the work load assigned to students in actual classrooms. Every project and test has the potential to be open book or a group project. Does anyone believe that on-campus students take all tests while consulting one another, their texts, and internet tutorials? Or perhaps developers of this degree believe all their on-line students refrain from such actions?
Furthermore, GA Tech is one of a growing number of schools which require freshman to live on campus. Like the working folks mentioned, many traditional undergraduates can't afford to live on campus either. Years ago, students could split rent on a nearby apartment at considerable savings over staying in the dorm. Now, if an incoming freshman can't afford dorm fees, he has two choices: pray for an additional housing scholarship or go away.
It's hardly surprising that this "innovation" comes to us from a state that is ranked at, what, maybe 48 out of 50?
2
Wow, for a guy who espouses erroneous facts about an entire state (GA is ranked 35 in the nation - not great but not at the bottom either), you also seem to have an opinion without the benefit of facts about this story. It appears you didn't read the article. The professor in charge of the program - a senior associate dean - says the online students take the exact same exams and do the exact same projects as those who take the classes on campus. He also went on to say that he's much more engaged with them because they spend more time engaging with him.
There have been plenty of bad online courses offered since the advent of the internet, but based on the information in the article, this is not one of them.
There have been plenty of bad online courses offered since the advent of the internet, but based on the information in the article, this is not one of them.
9
The article itself says the tests are proctored, so, no, they aren't consulting texts or collaborating inappropriately.
Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Georgia Tech requires first years to live on campus. They don't, and they don't have enough first year housing on campus as it is. In 2015-2016, they had to put some first years in upperclass dorms.
My son was a first year who got into Honors housing last year, but many of his friends from high school lived at home and commuted to the Institute.
Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Georgia Tech requires first years to live on campus. They don't, and they don't have enough first year housing on campus as it is. In 2015-2016, they had to put some first years in upperclass dorms.
My son was a first year who got into Honors housing last year, but many of his friends from high school lived at home and commuted to the Institute.
How do i get more information about all this?
1
This is a wonderful model and the if the courses are instructionally designed well, the ability to radically scale back costs and increase access is tremendous. Lectures, activities, and other resource materials can be created once and only updated as needed. This leaves more time for instructors and assistants to focus on providing feedback support to students. There are countless new and innovative ways technology and instructional design can inform these programs. I am so excited by the potential and I strongly believe that students will even receive more personalized instruction and feedback as innovations become more integrated. Sure... there will be unintended consequences. We can't forecast all potential outcomes, but we should solve those problems as they arise and continue down this wondrous path. Kudos to Georgia Tech.
3
I teach online and face to face. The good results of this course at Georgia Tech are due to enrolling hand-picked students who have excellent academic skills already, are highly motivated and are willing to teach themselves. I do wonder how Georgia Tech manages to keep their price so low, though, given the fact that good online education, with adequate grading and facilitation, is not all that cheap.
However we can't assume that this kind of success means that online education is going to transform teaching and learning and solve the problem of high tuition. That is a fallacy. Most undergraduate students who are taking online courses for degrees are not skilled and motivated to the same extent as the adults in this program.. Many online courses are very rudimentary, and do not have access to the expensive proctoring or the hand-graders that this course has. Often, schools create a "canned" template course and hand it to adjuncts to execute. Online methodology is a lot harder to make work with naive freshmen who don't log on regularly, don't read (or understand) content or assignment instructions, and don't have basic academic skills to start with. Online education has a place, but it is not a panacea.
However we can't assume that this kind of success means that online education is going to transform teaching and learning and solve the problem of high tuition. That is a fallacy. Most undergraduate students who are taking online courses for degrees are not skilled and motivated to the same extent as the adults in this program.. Many online courses are very rudimentary, and do not have access to the expensive proctoring or the hand-graders that this course has. Often, schools create a "canned" template course and hand it to adjuncts to execute. Online methodology is a lot harder to make work with naive freshmen who don't log on regularly, don't read (or understand) content or assignment instructions, and don't have basic academic skills to start with. Online education has a place, but it is not a panacea.
18
I'm in this program and love it! Far better then the other on line degrees out there. I live in NJ and quickly passed on their expensive state on line options.
The approach to throw more tax payer dollars at Universities and students only continues to keep the bubble inflated and politicians/schools/banks know it. Why would a University ever lower costs with the flood of dollars coming in???
Fingers crossed that this program branches out in spite of the perverse incentive of government money redistribution.
The approach to throw more tax payer dollars at Universities and students only continues to keep the bubble inflated and politicians/schools/banks know it. Why would a University ever lower costs with the flood of dollars coming in???
Fingers crossed that this program branches out in spite of the perverse incentive of government money redistribution.
13
There are several main problems in education today, none of which are fixed by online education.
1. 75 percent of classes are taught by adjuncts. By law, we should legislate that this number must be 0 in order for the school's students to be eligible for financial aid. Problem solved.
2. Parasitic administrator class of fundraisers who pull in 7-8 figure salaries (many pull 7 figures after retirement!) and some people here are so gullible as to believe college costs will be fixed by getting rid of the professors. It is literally insane that people believe this. Who do you think drives up costs more, the outgoing president with 1,000,000 year being paid in retirement and 10 million as a parting gift, or the assistant prof getting 60,000 a year for actially educating? You people want to fire the profs and give me more to these rich parasites!
3. We have the best colleges in the world, and the worst high schools. Costs cannot be contained until high schools stop aending us students who need to do their high school education all over again. It is astonishing how little the American high school student learns, even at our best high schools.
1. 75 percent of classes are taught by adjuncts. By law, we should legislate that this number must be 0 in order for the school's students to be eligible for financial aid. Problem solved.
2. Parasitic administrator class of fundraisers who pull in 7-8 figure salaries (many pull 7 figures after retirement!) and some people here are so gullible as to believe college costs will be fixed by getting rid of the professors. It is literally insane that people believe this. Who do you think drives up costs more, the outgoing president with 1,000,000 year being paid in retirement and 10 million as a parting gift, or the assistant prof getting 60,000 a year for actially educating? You people want to fire the profs and give me more to these rich parasites!
3. We have the best colleges in the world, and the worst high schools. Costs cannot be contained until high schools stop aending us students who need to do their high school education all over again. It is astonishing how little the American high school student learns, even at our best high schools.
75
The worst if pre school . In Europe 100 % goes to preschool .
In the USA only 65 % go .
Yes High schools are the problem .
School district policy is very very ad policy .
Poor districts produce poor students .
DOE has lots to do .
In the USA only 65 % go .
Yes High schools are the problem .
School district policy is very very ad policy .
Poor districts produce poor students .
DOE has lots to do .
1
When will people realize that whatever debatable advantages "online learning experiences" may have , real live instruction has the same advantages. Nearly every class in a college has an online component with a forum where comments can be posted, resources to download, access to instructor. All "online learning" wants to do is reduce education to nothing but this trivial addendum. What works in a teaching computer science is simply not going to work in teaching bench sciences , the humanities, or the social sciences. Those who say otherwise have almost certainly never taken a high level course in any of these disciplines.
7
My husband just received a hybrid PhD from Iowa State in a humanities discipline. He would strongly disagree with you.
Many of the criticisms of online programs remind me of the arguments full-time law students made to me about my part-time degree - that somehow my degree is "lesser" or the professors must have gone easier on me. I did the same work, It just took me a semester longer because I worked full-time while doing it. It boils down to a couple of things: snobbery against people who can't afford to go to school full time and not work, and jealousy because they know they probably couldn't hack it (and graduate with honors as I did.)
Many of the criticisms of online programs remind me of the arguments full-time law students made to me about my part-time degree - that somehow my degree is "lesser" or the professors must have gone easier on me. I did the same work, It just took me a semester longer because I worked full-time while doing it. It boils down to a couple of things: snobbery against people who can't afford to go to school full time and not work, and jealousy because they know they probably couldn't hack it (and graduate with honors as I did.)
6
This is a very important discussion: we need to be clear on the terms being used. Please do not confuse online education and MOOCs. MOOCs are one type (and certainly NOT the best type) of this genre. Over 30% of university students in the US have taken an online course, and this course will typically have small class size, live profs, and good completion rates and user satisfaction ratings. Online courses that use collaborative learning approaches have completion rates as good as or higher than f2f classes, and research has found that online education is not just "as good as", but "better" than f2f courses.
Online education began around 1986, using the pedagogy of online collaborative learning---and the collaborative learning approach has since been widely adopted for online and blended courses.
Completion rates of online courses using collaborative approaches equal f2f courses: 90%+ complete the course. Online courses have professors, typically use discussion forums for peer interaction, and involve team projects. Students are motivated by the interaction, the discussions and debates, and the opportunity to advance their understanding. This is VERY DIFFERENT from a MOOC which is based on video+quizzes. No live instructors.
MOOCs are a unique type of online education which does NOT use live professors to teach but replaces teachers with technology. Teacherless education is being promoted for big profit, not good learning.
Online education began around 1986, using the pedagogy of online collaborative learning---and the collaborative learning approach has since been widely adopted for online and blended courses.
Completion rates of online courses using collaborative approaches equal f2f courses: 90%+ complete the course. Online courses have professors, typically use discussion forums for peer interaction, and involve team projects. Students are motivated by the interaction, the discussions and debates, and the opportunity to advance their understanding. This is VERY DIFFERENT from a MOOC which is based on video+quizzes. No live instructors.
MOOCs are a unique type of online education which does NOT use live professors to teach but replaces teachers with technology. Teacherless education is being promoted for big profit, not good learning.
13
My daughter is applying to online masters of social work programs. She works full time in her field of study which is a requirement for the programs offered.
Why would anyone discount online education? Apparently the universities do not. They are still charging the same amount for credits earned in class or online.
Let's get real.
Why would anyone discount online education? Apparently the universities do not. They are still charging the same amount for credits earned in class or online.
Let's get real.
3
An online social work program seems a bit oxymoronic to me.
3
There are certainly some majors that lend themselves to an online approach and some people who can do well in an online environment.
I recently earned a MA in Spanish with a concentration in Latin American literature primarily taking online courses (at my school the other concentration available was linguistics). I took some courses face-to-face and some courses online, but I normally preferred online courses for convenience. And my school has outstanding online instructors, so I never felt I was learning less than I would have learn in a face-to-face course.
Of course, I'm not sure what good an MA in Spanish is. As I am about to retire, and since my wife is Spanish, I suppose we could retire to live in Spain and I could potentially work part-time in a language school teaching English to Spanish-speakers and helping foreigners, whether English-speaking exchange students, or immigrants and refugees, acquire basic skills in Spanish.
It was cheap. Since I work for the university, the university paid most of the costs. At our university an employee can take up to 6 credits per semester and only pay the fees, not the tuition, which is added to our paycheck stubs as income (so we pay income tax on the value of the tuition). A MA requires 36 credits. So in three years one can earn a MA, although I was not going anywhere, I took 3 credits a semester and took twice as long.
I recently earned a MA in Spanish with a concentration in Latin American literature primarily taking online courses (at my school the other concentration available was linguistics). I took some courses face-to-face and some courses online, but I normally preferred online courses for convenience. And my school has outstanding online instructors, so I never felt I was learning less than I would have learn in a face-to-face course.
Of course, I'm not sure what good an MA in Spanish is. As I am about to retire, and since my wife is Spanish, I suppose we could retire to live in Spain and I could potentially work part-time in a language school teaching English to Spanish-speakers and helping foreigners, whether English-speaking exchange students, or immigrants and refugees, acquire basic skills in Spanish.
It was cheap. Since I work for the university, the university paid most of the costs. At our university an employee can take up to 6 credits per semester and only pay the fees, not the tuition, which is added to our paycheck stubs as income (so we pay income tax on the value of the tuition). A MA requires 36 credits. So in three years one can earn a MA, although I was not going anywhere, I took 3 credits a semester and took twice as long.
4
Two thoughts.
1. I am all in favor of well-designed and -executed MS programs that are offered online, as the GATech CS MS seems to be. I would like to see a followup study that tells us how the on-campus MSCS students perform after several years in their careers relative to their online counterparts. In my observations, most online MS students are already working in the fields where they are seeking MS degrees, so little difference is likely to surface. But the study should be done.
2. I am vehemently opposed to online undergraduate degrees. There is so much to learn in the undergraduate experience that cannot be duplicated by any online version. Much of that is outside of coursework or laboratory sessions. As examples: Learning to interact and cooperate with others in person by understanding nonverbal cues; Going for coffee or generally hanging out with people from different backgrounds to prepare for the real world; And, of course, knowing a variety of people of the preferred (usually opposite) gender. All of this will build one's "empathy muscles" so a graduate has the skill to walk in another's shoes, a really valuable thing. If this builds liberals, most mind-widening experiences do.
1. I am all in favor of well-designed and -executed MS programs that are offered online, as the GATech CS MS seems to be. I would like to see a followup study that tells us how the on-campus MSCS students perform after several years in their careers relative to their online counterparts. In my observations, most online MS students are already working in the fields where they are seeking MS degrees, so little difference is likely to surface. But the study should be done.
2. I am vehemently opposed to online undergraduate degrees. There is so much to learn in the undergraduate experience that cannot be duplicated by any online version. Much of that is outside of coursework or laboratory sessions. As examples: Learning to interact and cooperate with others in person by understanding nonverbal cues; Going for coffee or generally hanging out with people from different backgrounds to prepare for the real world; And, of course, knowing a variety of people of the preferred (usually opposite) gender. All of this will build one's "empathy muscles" so a graduate has the skill to walk in another's shoes, a really valuable thing. If this builds liberals, most mind-widening experiences do.
18
Agree with one exception - the adult undergrad who either never went to college or dropped out and went into the labor force. For these students, an online degree from a well known school would probably be very advantageous for their future.
2
I am retired. I wrote and fixed and tested computer programs for a living. By the time I retired, other employees were getting masters in computer science to make their CV, their resumes look better. Some went the online route. I think it worked to some degree. The company I worked for was very impressed with advanced degrees rather than actual skill sets. It sounds snarky of me, but everything learned in a masters course could be learned at work for free by reading textbooks and company internal manuals.
All the people I knew socially as well as at work are all no longer working at the company. Some were laid off, some retired, some quit to work elsewhere. As for the masters in computer science employees, I never knew them well enough to be in touch after I left. They were younger than me and would not be of retirement age yet.
I often wonder if, in the long run, whether it worked for them (i.e. prevented them from getting laid off). The company went off on a stealth lay off spree around 2000-2001. It was still going on when I retired and is still going on today. I worked on fixing an attrition report for financial analysts which is how stumbled upon the layoff spree: keep the numbers of laid off employees low enough so that the company did not have to report the layoffs to the government or the press.
There is a US company that has shrunk tremendously in the last 17 years: that is the one.
All the people I knew socially as well as at work are all no longer working at the company. Some were laid off, some retired, some quit to work elsewhere. As for the masters in computer science employees, I never knew them well enough to be in touch after I left. They were younger than me and would not be of retirement age yet.
I often wonder if, in the long run, whether it worked for them (i.e. prevented them from getting laid off). The company went off on a stealth lay off spree around 2000-2001. It was still going on when I retired and is still going on today. I worked on fixing an attrition report for financial analysts which is how stumbled upon the layoff spree: keep the numbers of laid off employees low enough so that the company did not have to report the layoffs to the government or the press.
There is a US company that has shrunk tremendously in the last 17 years: that is the one.
13
-------- one can argue with Georgia Tech's marketing dept, that they are pricing a limited product at a price that doesn't represent its worth (or value ) but it's probably only 'cause GT hasn't figured out how to really make its degree worth the price.
the way mooc's should really be used is as the adjunct . oops, there go all the adjunct profs . an infinitely patient and reproducible student's assistant that is always available and doesn't mind repeating itself as many times as it takes, is the real value of the mooc. imagine a classroom where all the students have read the material and have done enough memorization that they don't need the prof to repeat anything except what he/she wants to repeat !
bricks and mortar will never be replaced because that's where people come who want to meet other people. some people want to live in a frat or sorority. some a dorm. some go to all the extra-curricular activities and some are okay with staying inside their off-campus apartment.
some schools do a huge amount of helping and encouraging. others do almost none . some schools have sons and daughters of the people who are running the country. some schools attract only students who have a need and interest in working with nobel prize-winners and their coterie who are making stuff that nobody else ever has.
and other schools teach just enough to get a job. some give the students just enough inter-personal practice to be able to ask for a job . . .
the way mooc's should really be used is as the adjunct . oops, there go all the adjunct profs . an infinitely patient and reproducible student's assistant that is always available and doesn't mind repeating itself as many times as it takes, is the real value of the mooc. imagine a classroom where all the students have read the material and have done enough memorization that they don't need the prof to repeat anything except what he/she wants to repeat !
bricks and mortar will never be replaced because that's where people come who want to meet other people. some people want to live in a frat or sorority. some a dorm. some go to all the extra-curricular activities and some are okay with staying inside their off-campus apartment.
some schools do a huge amount of helping and encouraging. others do almost none . some schools have sons and daughters of the people who are running the country. some schools attract only students who have a need and interest in working with nobel prize-winners and their coterie who are making stuff that nobody else ever has.
and other schools teach just enough to get a job. some give the students just enough inter-personal practice to be able to ask for a job . . .
4
Better yet, just offer graduate degrees by reading cartoons from the back of cereal boxes. That's even less expensive. I work in Information Technology, a field that eliminated hardcopy documentation and live training years ago in favor of on-line documentation and training. And I'm old enough to be able to compare the 'before' and 'after' and believe me, there's no comparison. The younger developers have no frame of reference to compare to. Any more, you mainly have to rely on what knowledge you have in your head, or what you learn from someone else one-on-one, which they might have learned from somebody else. The movie 'Idiocracy' is coming true as we speak.
11
It doesn't seem that cheap to me!
Compare that with a 200k dollar degree and you might reconsider.
1
Let the buyer beware: you get what you pay for.
Given that studies have shown the completion rates for online courses is less than 10% of those who enroll in them, the only people this benefits are university administrators who want to keep their costs low by cutting their teaching staff (because administrators themselves certainly aren't going to take a pay cut). The online experience does NOT replicate a live classroom one, and the only people arguing that it does are the online companies themselves. It has nothing to do with education, and everything to do with the bottom line.
Given that studies have shown the completion rates for online courses is less than 10% of those who enroll in them, the only people this benefits are university administrators who want to keep their costs low by cutting their teaching staff (because administrators themselves certainly aren't going to take a pay cut). The online experience does NOT replicate a live classroom one, and the only people arguing that it does are the online companies themselves. It has nothing to do with education, and everything to do with the bottom line.
6
And as a general principle, we ought to try to bring down the cost of education by eliminating the parasitic administrator class and their 7-8 figure salaries for "fundraising", rather than by reducing the amount of actual education students obtain and the amount of research which is conducted (if you stop conducting research, it will only be a few decades until you have nothing left to teach.)
23
The article presents an exciting alternative for those who are disciplined, self-starters and will made the effort to maximize their learning experience through interaction with the prof and students. I would imagine that this profile doesn't fit but a small number of 18 or 19 yr olds. But for older students, this is a fantastic alternative. I'd bet like the comment below from the financial planner that eventually colleges will hit a ceiling with their cost, there will be more cost effective alternatives in the future that will provide a quality college education esp since even many state schools have gotten very expensive. Plus the cost of housing, insurance and cost of living is going up (even with low inflation, go figure that), salaries are flat for many people and many families use to incomes to just pay the bills.
7
Generally speaking, those who think they are learning "the same" in an online class of hundreds or thousands of students are kidding themselves. Students love online classes because it's less work, and colleges like it because it's free easy money. I can perhaps see the argument for why this might work for computer science for obvious reasons, or maybe even for an introductory class with hundreds of students where interaction is nil anyway, but it is easy to see that this experiment has limited applicability.
5
Except that the country desperately needs to train more computer scientists. We could easily employee twice the number of CS majors we do today, and probably quintuple that when you add in all of the other programs that should include software courses. And that's just the US.
3
Today’s online learning is far different than the days of correspondence schools, accredited online universities are the future of learning. The emphasis in online learning is just that, “on learning”, not testing in the traditional sense. Papers are graded like a brick and mortar just sent via email.
My online classes afforded me the opportunity to interact with my professors regularly, albeit face-to-face time via Skype or Face time or other CMC. There is plethora of reading and research writing than traditional schools. Work is critique on various tasks, most specifically, time management skills, as there are weekly assignments, if not daily, with strict due dates. Additionally students work with other online students, therefore the priority not only lies in managing your schedule but in relation to the other students’ time as well. Students learn to work within the constraints of synchronous and asynchronous forums.
For me, my online assignments were far more intricate than in a traditional BA program. I believe this variety of learning enabled me to be well qualified to enter a traditional Master’s program.
At its core, online education is learning how to work in collaborative environments. This is imperative in today’s global businesses, cultural distinctions and different work schedules.
My online classes afforded me the opportunity to interact with my professors regularly, albeit face-to-face time via Skype or Face time or other CMC. There is plethora of reading and research writing than traditional schools. Work is critique on various tasks, most specifically, time management skills, as there are weekly assignments, if not daily, with strict due dates. Additionally students work with other online students, therefore the priority not only lies in managing your schedule but in relation to the other students’ time as well. Students learn to work within the constraints of synchronous and asynchronous forums.
For me, my online assignments were far more intricate than in a traditional BA program. I believe this variety of learning enabled me to be well qualified to enter a traditional Master’s program.
At its core, online education is learning how to work in collaborative environments. This is imperative in today’s global businesses, cultural distinctions and different work schedules.
14
Nope, in this program there definitely isn't less school work. And there's significant (online) interaction plus office hours in all courses.
I don't see the applicability of online as limited but expanding with Moore's law.
I don't see the applicability of online as limited but expanding with Moore's law.
5
Do you get the same degree as the person that attends on campus classes? Is there any difference in the transcript that is sent to prospective employers?
7
Good question, and the answers are Yes, No.
3
I've taught both live and online and I much prefer the former. I relish the interaction. But in this cost-driven world, I fear my personal preferences don't matter much.
8
...and therein lies a problem: is effective education more likely to arise from focussing how we prefer to teach, or from focussing on how students can most effectively learn? The piece makes a strong case for access to graduate education in this field.
5
Two years ago, our financial planner (from Georgia, actually) told us to save, but not to over-save for our toddlers' college funds. He commented that there was no way the market could sustain these sorts of tuition increases when the technology was available to provide robust education at a fraction of the cost. He believed there would be significant price pressure in the future to tamp down the yearly increases. Turns out, here's evidence that he might be right. (We'll still save, though, just in case...)
16
Your financial planner just might be on to something. Only one thing, how does the average person "over-save" for college? You'd have to have quite a nice income *and* live frugally. I guess therein lies the answer, the sheer financial limitations of the 99 percenters will eventually (hopefully) drive down college costs. We can borrow only so much.
3
My son is 27 years old and is a software engineer at TI. He wanted to go to Georgia Tech for his undergraduate studies but due to the cost especially as a non-resident, it was not possible, so he attended an in state college instead. When he found out about this online program at Georgia Tech he was very excited. I was very doubtful. It was unheard of a prestigious college offering a master program for $7000, so I did some research myself and was pleasantly surprised. My son applied and was accepted into the program. He is now one year into the program. According to him the program is very challenging, especially working fulltime, but he knew this is a rare opportunity to further his education at a top ranking college for an affordable cost.
136
Very proud of my alma mater for their progressive leadership in this area. Wish it had been available twenty years ago.
3
I'm also in the program and agree 120%, very challenging, extremely rewarding, absolutely love it! I can only hope this expands to other appropriate degrees/areas.
Also note this degree is equivalent accreditation of on campus degree. If we wanted we could actually walk in the on campus graduation ceremony!
There is a LOT of silliness, waste, lack of effectiveness out there but GA Tech nailed it with this program!
Also note this degree is equivalent accreditation of on campus degree. If we wanted we could actually walk in the on campus graduation ceremony!
There is a LOT of silliness, waste, lack of effectiveness out there but GA Tech nailed it with this program!
3
But can you online students sing the Ramblin Wreck? That's the real measure of truly being a Tech graduate!
Just kidding. Very proud of my alma mater for doing this and think this is a great option having done my MS ICS on campus while working. Good luck!
I'm a Rambling Wreck from Georgia Tech and a heckuva Engineer!
Just kidding. Very proud of my alma mater for doing this and think this is a great option having done my MS ICS on campus while working. Good luck!
I'm a Rambling Wreck from Georgia Tech and a heckuva Engineer!
Master's Degree for free in Germany. That is the only rational choice, if you have no money.
16
Yes, and there are many others in Europe at top universities where the fees are incredibly low and the programs are taught in English. An argument may be made that American universities are superior by some measures, but there is no way to justify the costs of most American programs.
23
They are free because the state funds them, you do realize? They don't actually cost nothing. We'd all be happy for the government to step in here as well.
4
I completed an online doctoral degree three years ago. I found the professors to be more than willing to offer assistance as were the other students in the classes. My degree cost significantly less than colleagues were paying for the same degree at a local university, and the rigor of the coursework was the same. For me, going into debt for a degree was not something that I was prepared to do at this point in my life, and the online program fit my needs perfectly. To get the most out of such programs, students must be self-motivated and willing to reach out and ask for assistance when it is needed. Overall, I had a great experience and would highly recommend online courses and degree programs.
23
I've already said that I support online MS programs that are meant to immediately enhance professional careers. Having advised PhD students, I am firmly convinced that earning a PhD is qualitatively different from just more MS work. Spending a year, preferably more, of post-MS work immersed (usually in a cubicle jungle with immediate back-and-forth) among other PhD student peers, and several faculty members, cannot be duplicated online. A good PhD advisor does a far different job for a PhD student than an MS student receives: "Good taste" in selecting a research area to engage in; Skills in knowing how to organize a research effort; Knowing how to think clearly for oneself instead of relying on a faculty advisor telling the student what to do to successfully complete PhD research.
I also hired people with PhDs. If they could not show the above attributes they got nowhere in the process.
I also hired people with PhDs. If they could not show the above attributes they got nowhere in the process.
5
This is good news for reducing indebtedness if student loans are once and for all restricted to to the $7500 direct cost only, not "room and board" and other unrelated personal expenses.
5
Room and board as an unrelated personal expense? For undergrad, I attended college 600 miles away from home and a dorm room was a necessity. Food was a necessity and my work study job in the library was just enough for spending money. Living on campus was also a large part of the college experience. Graduate students also need housing, and while I was fortunate enough to have a part time job (while I was a full time grad student) that actually earned enough to cover my DC area apartment, I'm sure that was uncommon.
3
Meg9
The point being if one is financially stretched it's less expensive to live with parents while attending university. Some who complain of college costs think they're entitled to have the "full immersion" experience of going away, but it's unnecessary for the vast majority of students already living with parents who are within driving, biking, or public transportation to a decent university.
The point being if one is financially stretched it's less expensive to live with parents while attending university. Some who complain of college costs think they're entitled to have the "full immersion" experience of going away, but it's unnecessary for the vast majority of students already living with parents who are within driving, biking, or public transportation to a decent university.
7
So, in your view Ben, college and graduate school should be limited to those who have parents willing and able to house them for free, buy them food, medical insurance, transportation to school, books, and computers?
The reason that you can get loans for "unrelated personal expenses", which are generally restricted to the specified local cost of housing, food, health insurance, transportation, as well as a small amount to cover books, and a computer, is that students cannot generally effectively learn if they have nowhere to live, or without food to eat, or if they cannot afford public transportation to class, if they cannot see a doctor when ill they are at high risk of losing their entire investment and no school wants the risk of sick students either, and as I hope you'll acknowledge, books and a computer are required to obtain an education, since teachers do not generally accept an oral recitation in lieu of a typed paper. If your thought is "they should live with their parents", this option is not available to all, and it would be both morally outrageous and economically disastrous to limit access to education to those whose parents provide such things for free,
The reason that you can get loans for "unrelated personal expenses", which are generally restricted to the specified local cost of housing, food, health insurance, transportation, as well as a small amount to cover books, and a computer, is that students cannot generally effectively learn if they have nowhere to live, or without food to eat, or if they cannot afford public transportation to class, if they cannot see a doctor when ill they are at high risk of losing their entire investment and no school wants the risk of sick students either, and as I hope you'll acknowledge, books and a computer are required to obtain an education, since teachers do not generally accept an oral recitation in lieu of a typed paper. If your thought is "they should live with their parents", this option is not available to all, and it would be both morally outrageous and economically disastrous to limit access to education to those whose parents provide such things for free,
6
As an educator, I ask readers to consider a different dimension of this issue.
The article, and nearly all the comments, compare online courses to in-residence courses. The basic thesis is that these and other online courses are as good or better than campus programs at multiples of the cost.
The germane issue is that neither is particularly good, thereby rendering the comparative analysis moot. I'll stipulate to the claim that an online course is as good as a college lecture. That's meaningless, as the college lecture is not good education. Psychology and neurobiology provide irrefutable evidence of the power of learning through multiple sensory experiences. Neither passive listening nor engaging with a computer are good education. Theorists from early progressives through Jerome Bruner, Lev Vygotsky, Howard Gardner and others, demonstrated the critical power of social engagement and deep context in learning. Neither lectures nor online courses provide rich and varied sensory experiences or social context. In all, this article compares mediocre education with mediocre education.
The article, and nearly all the comments, compare online courses to in-residence courses. The basic thesis is that these and other online courses are as good or better than campus programs at multiples of the cost.
The germane issue is that neither is particularly good, thereby rendering the comparative analysis moot. I'll stipulate to the claim that an online course is as good as a college lecture. That's meaningless, as the college lecture is not good education. Psychology and neurobiology provide irrefutable evidence of the power of learning through multiple sensory experiences. Neither passive listening nor engaging with a computer are good education. Theorists from early progressives through Jerome Bruner, Lev Vygotsky, Howard Gardner and others, demonstrated the critical power of social engagement and deep context in learning. Neither lectures nor online courses provide rich and varied sensory experiences or social context. In all, this article compares mediocre education with mediocre education.
27
Yes, but "some" less expensive education is better than "none".
5
Nobody can underestimate the value social engagement and deep context in learning but at the same time there is another dimension you have to take in consideration in the equation: the cost of the tuition
3
It is interesting to note that many online programs are in computer science and computer science related topics. Writing code for assignments is active learning and is actually a superior way to learn. Thus, either on campus or off, the active learning approach is very experienctial.
I like MOCCS because many of the courses are on video which I can halt and rewind or watch again. While I am a better note taker than I used to be, the fact that these are videos is invaluable.
Discussion boards in MOOCs CAN be helpful, if people are contributing and excited. That happens in about 50% of my classes.
In my infectious disease class, everyone was thrilled to be there, there was lots of discussion, and I contributed mathematical models using spreadsheets. Extraordinary educational experience!
I like MOCCS because many of the courses are on video which I can halt and rewind or watch again. While I am a better note taker than I used to be, the fact that these are videos is invaluable.
Discussion boards in MOOCs CAN be helpful, if people are contributing and excited. That happens in about 50% of my classes.
In my infectious disease class, everyone was thrilled to be there, there was lots of discussion, and I contributed mathematical models using spreadsheets. Extraordinary educational experience!
1
While working for The Coca-Cola Company which is just across the street from GA Tech it was obvious the under grad and graduate students working on special projects were exceptional students.
I always thought my al mater. Purdue was good but Tech is a better university for a engineering and science education with a degree in Engineering Engineering sciences was the best and most difficult degree.
Tech has been listed several times as the university in the USA as providing the best return on the money spent on a degree there.
After seeing the collapse of the likes of ITT and The University of Phoenix - why have ripoffs like these companies been allowed to continue their plundering. Simple - they make lots of money and can hire good lobbyists.
HOOOOORAY GA TECH - makes me proud to have GA in my address!
I always thought my al mater. Purdue was good but Tech is a better university for a engineering and science education with a degree in Engineering Engineering sciences was the best and most difficult degree.
Tech has been listed several times as the university in the USA as providing the best return on the money spent on a degree there.
After seeing the collapse of the likes of ITT and The University of Phoenix - why have ripoffs like these companies been allowed to continue their plundering. Simple - they make lots of money and can hire good lobbyists.
HOOOOORAY GA TECH - makes me proud to have GA in my address!
23
I have a Masters degree in Civil Engineeing Constuction Enginering and Management from Purdue. I was required by a major Atlanta contractor to Atlanta out of Purdue. I take exception with what Butch Burton also a Purdue grad is saying. During my 30 years with over 20 in management and supervision of Engineers of Architects in Atlanta GA tech like all Engineering Schools has majors where it is strong and others that it is not.
Every top 25 A & E school has its areas that are strengths. My Virginia Architect was the best! My Hispanic Female High Voltage Electical Engineer ran laps around my Ga Tech EE's and they admitted, she graduated from Washington Univ. in St. Louis., My Mech. Engineers from Tech were pretty good when I got them off the Theory and got them to be practical. My Southern Tech ME's that didn't make the Cut to GT were more practical. Every office around town and every submital of Teams for projects needs CV's with team members from diverse schools. This ensures checks and balances for project design.
I have seen a lot of Purdue Graduates leading the teams or Managements Members. After all Purdue is the "Quarterback Cradle". I wouldn't want to be known for the I.E. Degree aka Imaginary Engineering as Georgia Tech is.
Note : I was accepted into Georgia Tech, but chose Purdue.
Every top 25 A & E school has its areas that are strengths. My Virginia Architect was the best! My Hispanic Female High Voltage Electical Engineer ran laps around my Ga Tech EE's and they admitted, she graduated from Washington Univ. in St. Louis., My Mech. Engineers from Tech were pretty good when I got them off the Theory and got them to be practical. My Southern Tech ME's that didn't make the Cut to GT were more practical. Every office around town and every submital of Teams for projects needs CV's with team members from diverse schools. This ensures checks and balances for project design.
I have seen a lot of Purdue Graduates leading the teams or Managements Members. After all Purdue is the "Quarterback Cradle". I wouldn't want to be known for the I.E. Degree aka Imaginary Engineering as Georgia Tech is.
Note : I was accepted into Georgia Tech, but chose Purdue.
2
The college business model is a wonder: send me your tax return and I'll tell you the price. Thank you Georgia Tech.
40
Campus based programs were developed because at the time they were developed there was no technology to support another approach. Now we have the technology and we should use it.
16
It is all well and good to educate people with a computer science MS that may or may not help them. But what about all our youngsters who are not academically inclined. Where are the programs in machining, automobile repair, plumbing, electricity, carpentry, masonry, etc.
If and when the economy takes off and the country has the internal fortitude to fix our massive infrastructure problems, our pressing need will be for tradesmen and tradeswomen who can work on fixing a bridge or putting up a building. THOSE are the programs our youngsters desperately need.
If and when the economy takes off and the country has the internal fortitude to fix our massive infrastructure problems, our pressing need will be for tradesmen and tradeswomen who can work on fixing a bridge or putting up a building. THOSE are the programs our youngsters desperately need.
45
True. There is still the great digital divide, some children will not be able to utilized online classes because their areas lack the infrastructure or the actual technology. Soon enough there will be a complete package for the online student who needs aid for technology purposes....still less expensive than traditional school.
Yes, those jobs are already in high demand. Unions offer classroom and on the job learning. When an apprentice finishes the program, they are tested at the highest standard.
As a union employer, I am assured that the men and women serving my clients are skilled trades people.
Unions have been and are the backbone of our country's infrastructure. But alas, there is still class distinction between blue collar and white collar.
As a union employer, I am assured that the men and women serving my clients are skilled trades people.
Unions have been and are the backbone of our country's infrastructure. But alas, there is still class distinction between blue collar and white collar.
1
I agree. For those "youngsters who are not academically inclined" brick-n-mortar is a necessity and inexpensive community colleges would be perfect for such programs or special high-schools.
I teach in an online MA program, and increasingly feel that online learning needs to move away from justifying itself by aping the traditional campus—such as this article's reporting that Professor Isbell uses the same assignments and exams as his campus class.
I believe that the real contribution of these programs will happen when we start to better understand the new kinds of things that online can do better than traditional programs. Once that kind of playful exploration and experimentation become robust, and once online learning takes more chances and starts to do things that nobody dares in traditional programs, I think we'll start to see programs that are attractive not because they are less expensive, but are more expansive.
Much of the attention to online learning is focused on the economics, but there's a very real aspect of new approaches to mediated learning that will have a lasting impact. I'm anxious to leave behind these days of "looking legit."
https://matthewthibeault.com
I believe that the real contribution of these programs will happen when we start to better understand the new kinds of things that online can do better than traditional programs. Once that kind of playful exploration and experimentation become robust, and once online learning takes more chances and starts to do things that nobody dares in traditional programs, I think we'll start to see programs that are attractive not because they are less expensive, but are more expansive.
Much of the attention to online learning is focused on the economics, but there's a very real aspect of new approaches to mediated learning that will have a lasting impact. I'm anxious to leave behind these days of "looking legit."
https://matthewthibeault.com
12
Exactly there is a brand new world of pedagogy dedicated to CMC online learning and they are trying to change the status quo to traditional scholarship. It's a daunting task, but they are chiseling away at it.
It's a great business, yes. But is it a breakthrough in the field of education as well as in the education business?
As to the younger graduate students in particular, I'm not convinced that their ultimate advancement in the field will equal the advancement of those who actually attend a "brick and mortar" classroom.
As a coach for college and graduate students of all levels and nationalities, I can easily recognize students who've spent too many years in front of cell phones and other electronic screens. They are most often the ones who are somewhat disabled and disassociated in terms of their interpersonal connections, including their ability to identify with leaders (including academic leaders) in their chosen field, and who don't quite understand the process or value of in-depth give-and-take and face-to-face discussion. To them, the question is always "I can just send an email."
If, in the final phase of their education these students again miss out on experiencing real social interaction and in-depth study with others in the same courses and locations, can they ultimately achieve the quality of interpersonal relating required of true and productive leaders in any field.
It would be interesting to find out if, over their long-term career spans, these graduates are able to experience the same quality of mentorship and sense of community as those obtained by colleagues who obtained their degrees through traditional, (although prohibitively expensive) means.
As to the younger graduate students in particular, I'm not convinced that their ultimate advancement in the field will equal the advancement of those who actually attend a "brick and mortar" classroom.
As a coach for college and graduate students of all levels and nationalities, I can easily recognize students who've spent too many years in front of cell phones and other electronic screens. They are most often the ones who are somewhat disabled and disassociated in terms of their interpersonal connections, including their ability to identify with leaders (including academic leaders) in their chosen field, and who don't quite understand the process or value of in-depth give-and-take and face-to-face discussion. To them, the question is always "I can just send an email."
If, in the final phase of their education these students again miss out on experiencing real social interaction and in-depth study with others in the same courses and locations, can they ultimately achieve the quality of interpersonal relating required of true and productive leaders in any field.
It would be interesting to find out if, over their long-term career spans, these graduates are able to experience the same quality of mentorship and sense of community as those obtained by colleagues who obtained their degrees through traditional, (although prohibitively expensive) means.
13
I love this idea. We should encourage further such democratization of good education. Made my day to read about so many people taking such a tough Masters degree online.
5
This is a fantastic approach to delivering high quality educations to motivated students. It is a great example of how colleges and universities should be adapting and responding to unmet needs to improve the education process. A big congratulations to the team at Georgia Tech for moving ahead on this approach.
I wonder if other schools will learn from this and adapt their programs?
I wonder if other schools will learn from this and adapt their programs?
6
my readings of online education (MOOCs, etc.) are they are great for already working degree-qualified professionals who just need to pick up some extra information
but not for fresh out of school teenagers who've never had a job and need hand-holding and face to face peer group social contact to keep them motivated - at least to help them when they get stuck on the first question - and avoid the distraction inevitable if they are alone in the bedroom one click away from facebook and entertainment sites.
In Australia we had the problem of dodgy 'upstairs universities' offering free iPads to 'just sign here' for long term unemployed or disabled welfare recipients - and 'no need to attend' - 'here's your certificate' - only later would they find they now owed the government $38,000 - as the small print they didn't read was a loan agreement giving federal funds to said upstairs university.
but not for fresh out of school teenagers who've never had a job and need hand-holding and face to face peer group social contact to keep them motivated - at least to help them when they get stuck on the first question - and avoid the distraction inevitable if they are alone in the bedroom one click away from facebook and entertainment sites.
In Australia we had the problem of dodgy 'upstairs universities' offering free iPads to 'just sign here' for long term unemployed or disabled welfare recipients - and 'no need to attend' - 'here's your certificate' - only later would they find they now owed the government $38,000 - as the small print they didn't read was a loan agreement giving federal funds to said upstairs university.
12
Hurrah for Georgia Tech - Heck of Engineers !
The future is going to be On-Line Learning.
The sooner parents realise that sending an 18 year old to party and sleep in
at $ 75,000 a year is just not worth it, the better off the country and they
will be.
The future is going to be On-Line Learning.
The sooner parents realise that sending an 18 year old to party and sleep in
at $ 75,000 a year is just not worth it, the better off the country and they
will be.
57
At most universities, the university owns any videoed lectures. Mr. Isbell will soon be replaced by himself- on video. And earn nothing.
8
This will only be true if our understanding of the world and the advances in knowledge become frozen in time. The reality is that much of this material has a relatively short shelf life.
5
Our knowledge will become frozen in time if the people who create much of the new knowledge (professors) become unemployed when they are no longer needed by the universities. This is a very scary trend.
6
In other instances, the university has entered into a partnership with a for-proft company, and the owner of the content is the for-profit. For another example, see the for-profit academic publishing model. The people doing the actual content creation get zilch for their labors.
4
In capitalist America, you get what you pay for. Why should this be any different? Or, in other words, Georgia Tech diminishes its brand and confirms it's, as my friends like to say, Coca-Cola Tech. It's not about education. It's about profit above all else.
3
If you read the article, it stated that Georgia Tech is not making any money at $7k so it can't be about profit.
9
If you pay nothing for open source materials - including software and courseware - are you saying it is worth nothing? If GT makes its educational products and services more affordable and in doing so attracts a wider audience, is that in itself a bad thing?
8
Good idea. Good-bye overpaid, useless administrators. Good-bye college presidents with their edifice complexes
22
"edifice complex"
Did you come up with that?
Did you come up with that?
2
Good-bye professors doing research and creating new knowledge.
8
The problem is that elite universities trade in scarcity. Thus, making their brand names this widely available and inexpensive will damage their brands, and their ability to place students in top positions. There are just not that many top positions. The scarcity and cost of elite degrees is not a bug, it's a feature.
5
From another point of view (a more Marxist one), online education means that the universities now own the means of production. Whereas before a professor taught a course directly to the students, now the professor is a cog in the online course machine and cannot reach the students without the university's active collaboration. Grading can be done automatically or outsourced to India. Answering most students' questions about course topics can also be outsourced to some (maybe tiered) external support system.
A few brilliant teachers may profit from this system (just as, currently, there are a few very well-paid textbook authors), but I think it'll mostly be the university administrators who will get to pay themselves higher and higher salaries. Definitely they see this future and keep pushing for it, salivating at the thought.
Probably there'll still be a niche market for face-to-face interaction, just like mechanical watches haven't been entirely displaced by electronic watches. But it'll be a niche luxury market.
A few brilliant teachers may profit from this system (just as, currently, there are a few very well-paid textbook authors), but I think it'll mostly be the university administrators who will get to pay themselves higher and higher salaries. Definitely they see this future and keep pushing for it, salivating at the thought.
Probably there'll still be a niche market for face-to-face interaction, just like mechanical watches haven't been entirely displaced by electronic watches. But it'll be a niche luxury market.
5
Professors won't even be a cog. Once they record their lectures, they will be unemployed.
10
in NJ,
Nope.
Knowledge of subjects continually evolves, so those videos will need to be updated.
Nope.
Knowledge of subjects continually evolves, so those videos will need to be updated.
2
The reason why on-campus education is so expensive is all those sports facilities, dining options, counseling services, and entertainment options. Students who pay $50,000 have come to expect all that.
For most faculty members, salary increases have only kept pace with inflation (?), so the ballooning cost of education comes from the withdrawal of government subsidies and from all the management and auxiliary personnel, which have increased to astronomical proportions.
No wonder that online education can be delivered more efficiently and at a much lower cost. The quality may be somewhat lower and it doesn't come with all those bells and whistles, but the price savings may be worth it.
For most faculty members, salary increases have only kept pace with inflation (?), so the ballooning cost of education comes from the withdrawal of government subsidies and from all the management and auxiliary personnel, which have increased to astronomical proportions.
No wonder that online education can be delivered more efficiently and at a much lower cost. The quality may be somewhat lower and it doesn't come with all those bells and whistles, but the price savings may be worth it.
53
Left out all the new bureaucrats (e.g., Title IX rape claims) now required by BHO's crew.
BTW: sports is a separate budget that is as much marketing/PR as "sports."
BTW: sports is a separate budget that is as much marketing/PR as "sports."
4
I took a course from Tina Seelig on the subject of "A Crash Course in Creativity" from the Venture Lab at Stanford in Oct 2012. This was a free online course, with thousands of others across the world (it was a MOOC). The lectures were excellent. The assignments engaging and useful. Two downsides: no proper grading of work (they experimented with peer grading, which wasn't very effective), and uneven engagement from colleagues on group projects (remember, the course was free). I learned that I am willing to pay to have someone grade my work, and your peer group matters. That said, overall, this was a tremendously positive experience, I learned a lot and had fun, and I think we are going to see a lot more online learning in the future. The upsides are too compelling for this not to evolve.
31
The question is how to make it sustainable so that those who teach can make a proper living (adjuncts at major universities and those teaching in community colleges are making a pittance, and they carry the lion's share of the teaching burden in higher education) and those who learn can obtain a quality education. Teaching is one of the most labor-intensive "industries" in existence. Machines can't provide feedback to humans, not in a way that is meaningful. Even artificial intelligence, something on the order of IBM's Watson, could go a long way to extend the cognitive capabilities of human teaching faculty, but in the end, it's the quality of the interaction between a human teaching being and a student where the spark of education happens. And online education is isolating and lonely. I've taught both online and in-person courses at a flagship state university in the Western US, and I can tell you that the teaching experience is not the same, nor is the learning experience. Students who excel in online courses would excel on a desert island, but those who need more attention and contact, generally do poorly in these courses. Look at the failure rate for those taking MOOC's. The retention rate is very low because people like to have genuine, meaningful contact with mentors. It's just a fact. What we need is more funding for education, from K-graduate school. We need to start treating our people as critical infrastructure, and invest accordingly.
18
Teaching is easy. I was an adjunct for two years at Fordham. I had no real boss and did most of my work (grading papers and designing lectures/seminars) in cafes. Also, I loved what I did (teach Paradise Lost and other great books). Now, I day trade stocks at home. WAY more stressful.
Teaching is a walk in the park compared with most jobs. I am not saying it isn't important. It is important, but it's neither hard nor demanding. Writing a dissertation is both hard and demanding. Teaching college courses is more like a serious hobby than a job.
Imagine having a job at which, every day, you fear you will be fired if you fail to make a quota. Imagine a job at which you are constantly under the hour to hour supervision of a boss who is a control freak.
Being a teacher at a halfway decent college is like summer vacation. But you can't earn enough to own a home in the Hamptons or a place in Manhattan.
Teaching is a walk in the park compared with most jobs. I am not saying it isn't important. It is important, but it's neither hard nor demanding. Writing a dissertation is both hard and demanding. Teaching college courses is more like a serious hobby than a job.
Imagine having a job at which, every day, you fear you will be fired if you fail to make a quota. Imagine a job at which you are constantly under the hour to hour supervision of a boss who is a control freak.
Being a teacher at a halfway decent college is like summer vacation. But you can't earn enough to own a home in the Hamptons or a place in Manhattan.
5
How many courses did you teach as an adjunct? Also as an adjunct, you had no publishing or research responsibilities, no service commitments and no mandated community service commitments.
Teaching is not easy. A dedicated teacher puts in work to meet and advise students, grade assignments, prepare and course materials (including the medium used for the delivery of the content.) Good teaching touches many lives, unlike that dissertation that may live only the library's online archive.
Teaching is not easy. A dedicated teacher puts in work to meet and advise students, grade assignments, prepare and course materials (including the medium used for the delivery of the content.) Good teaching touches many lives, unlike that dissertation that may live only the library's online archive.
4
This is actually misleading. Graduate tuition for in-state students at Georgia Tech is about the same as for undergraduates (though most resident graduate students have fellowships and/or teaching assistantships of some kind, which itself is a form of cheap labor for the university), which for in-state students is about $10,000 per year. Out of state is about $30,000 or so. So the "cheaper" Master's degree at $7,000 is really a discount of about 30% off the in-state tuition rate, and they're offering the same deal for out of state students, which means that the tuition for someone who is not a Georgia resident is being subsidized by those who pay tuition for in-state or out-of-state tuition. The money has to come from somewhere, and that's one place it's coming from. So your student who is paying the full fare to go to school on campus is supporting that student who is attending online from somewhere outside Georgia, and who is not paying taxes into the state's coffers. So this isn't a realistic or sustainable way to support education, and will eventually cause even more tuition hikes, which are already astronomical. Nothing is free, and this is no exception.
7
I would jump to the conclusion that it isn't sustainable. On campus students pay more because they receive more and require more, things like dining facilities, gyms, social activities, campus security, etc.
In the article it states "Georgia Tech decided to do something different. It charges online students the smallest amount necessary to cover its costs. That turned out to be $510 for a three-credit class." According to the article the online masters covers its own costs, so it isn't "subsidized" as you say it is, it is self-funded by those attending. If it were completely free it is obviously subsidized by the taxpayer, this doesn't appear to be the case.
In the article it states "Georgia Tech decided to do something different. It charges online students the smallest amount necessary to cover its costs. That turned out to be $510 for a three-credit class." According to the article the online masters covers its own costs, so it isn't "subsidized" as you say it is, it is self-funded by those attending. If it were completely free it is obviously subsidized by the taxpayer, this doesn't appear to be the case.
5
No, the article specifically states: "Georgia Tech . . . charges online students the smallest amount necessary to cover its costs".
5
If I were young and starting in this economic climate, I would mump at this.
The real issue is that we need federal funding for higher education, and we need to invest in it the way the Scandinavians do. They understand that their people are their most valuable asset, and they invest in them accordingly. In America, we try to do everything on the cheap, and with uneducated buffoons running most of the state legislatures, and their equally idiotic counterparts in congress, they have pushed education to the bottom of the trash heap in the US. We have the worst public school system in the industrialized world, the most expensive higher educational system, and the result? An uneducated populace completely unprepared for life in the late 20th, never mind the 21st, century. We have abandoned entire regions of the country, left working class people who were never well-educated to begin with, and who depended on manual labor jobs in mining, factories, and other fields, to rot. They're unprepared to work in a knowledge economy, and have little knowledge to understand why they're being left out. Unequipped to think critically (blame substandard educational system again) they believe their jobs in coal mines and factories are coming back. They're not. Those jobs don't exist (replaced by machines and robots) or are carried out in places where labor is cheap and plentiful. But again, the root of all these issues is EDUCATION. If we don't invest in people and make them smart, we are doing nothing but creating the great unwashed who can do nothing but whine.
31
amen!
2
Frankly, it is about time that a college does the ethical thing and actually charges for online courses in line with their expenses. I have attended courses at a certain highly prized institution by the Charles, in Cambridge in the flesh, and then later seen how the same course is offered online, and online at a prized institution by Menlo Park. Clearly, outside of pushing the PLAY button and enrolling an (unfortunately) underpaid adjunct, there really weren't any new expense from the university yet the courses cost several thousand dollars. The courses are way, way overpriced --I suppose you buy the name. [As a side not, these are, contrary to what folks may say, every bit as hard as the live course --in fact much harder as you cannot interact in the flesh during lectures with the professor (though you can via boards and office hours)].
Online is the way of the future --yes, online needs to be paired up with solid pay and a real career path for adjuncts; royalties need to be paid back as well to professors whose lecture is being played over and over-- but most online courses are today *exceedingly* overpriced. Georgia Tech is doing something really great for their students. Other colleges should follow. It's the ethical thing to do.
Online is the way of the future --yes, online needs to be paired up with solid pay and a real career path for adjuncts; royalties need to be paid back as well to professors whose lecture is being played over and over-- but most online courses are today *exceedingly* overpriced. Georgia Tech is doing something really great for their students. Other colleges should follow. It's the ethical thing to do.
4
I find it horrifying that the sole criteria for admission was grade point average. No consideration of the difficulties of the classes taken, the difficulty of the school, or any circumstance under which the GPA was achieved. I guess the moral of the story is go to community college and take basket weaving, and Georgia Tech will accept you into their Masters program.
5
I read the article again - no where does it say that the "sole criteria for admissions was grade point" .
They "cut off admission at 3.26" , which means they only considered applications from students with GPA above 3.26.
They "cut off admission at 3.26" , which means they only considered applications from students with GPA above 3.26.
5
If you go to Georgia Tech's website you will clearly see that is not the case. You need a major in computer science or related field (ie mathematics, computer engineering, electrical engineering, etc.) Others will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis and even if you qualify you aren't guaranteed acceptance.
To enroll in the program you need to have taken the GREs, have a B.S. or B.A. (or the equivalent), and obtain at least three letters of recommendation. I agree that the article is a bit misleading on this point but G.T.'s admissions criteria are a matter of public record.
If you had a 4.0 in an unrelated major (like basket weaving), I imagine you would probably have a tough time getting three letters of recommendation touting what a good fit you would be in a masters computer science program. If you somehow still managed to get in you in all likelihood would promptly fail out because it is after all a masters program in computer science and the courses assume that you are already an able programmer. (I know someone who went there and confirmed that the courses are in fact quite rigorous.)
I say all of this to reassure you that this program will not result in a bunch of unqualified persons earning M.S. degrees in computer science. You seemed to be concerned that this would happen. Rest easy tonight. It's not going to happen.
If you had a 4.0 in an unrelated major (like basket weaving), I imagine you would probably have a tough time getting three letters of recommendation touting what a good fit you would be in a masters computer science program. If you somehow still managed to get in you in all likelihood would promptly fail out because it is after all a masters program in computer science and the courses assume that you are already an able programmer. (I know someone who went there and confirmed that the courses are in fact quite rigorous.)
I say all of this to reassure you that this program will not result in a bunch of unqualified persons earning M.S. degrees in computer science. You seemed to be concerned that this would happen. Rest easy tonight. It's not going to happen.
14
Master's programs are mainly about making contacts. You can't really learn anything in 2 years. For a real advanced education, one needs to do a 5-8 year PhD and do a long research project. In general, most people consider a Master's to be a joke. The only thing anyone gets out of a Master's program are future business contacts (one's fellow students). From the standpoint of education and learning, the MA degree should be eliminated (in general).
Not true.
7
That is certainly not the case in Computer Science. You can check out the courses at the web site.
7
The value of an MS is discipline-specific. In some sciences the MS is awarded to those who fail the PhD qualifying exams. While a terminal MS student does not learn to do independent, publishable research, the content of graduate CS courses is valuable for students and employers.
We need to move past the need for a traditional college education for many of today's professions. I have been in the computer programming field for nearly thirty years. Most of my colleagues who started programming at that time came out of college with a variety of degrees not even remotely related to computer science. They all learned how to program on the job and have had successful careers. The two programmers I admire most for their work never even went to college.
If you have an aptitude and interest in programming, you should be learning it before you start middle school. High School should be a mix of the traditional classes along with a separate program technical program. Upon graduation, you should be able to get a job with a good starting salary and not have all the college debt for a degree you do not need.
If you have an aptitude and interest in programming, you should be learning it before you start middle school. High School should be a mix of the traditional classes along with a separate program technical program. Upon graduation, you should be able to get a job with a good starting salary and not have all the college debt for a degree you do not need.
6
That depends on what you want to do. Commercial programming requires little more than a basic understanding of programming, operating systems, database design, and perhaps some scripting languages.
If you want to work in the heavy areas like operating system development, artificial intelligence, or real-time systems, however, you need to understand a lot of math-related theory.
If you want to work in the heavy areas like operating system development, artificial intelligence, or real-time systems, however, you need to understand a lot of math-related theory.
2
Computer programming is not the same as computer science. I suspect the two programmers you most admire would be even better if they understood the academic foundations of their profession.
There are entire classes of problems where the logical solution is fundamentally wrong and only computation theory will prove to you why.
However, I know many people with computer science degrees who are not good programmers (myself included). I use the theory every week though in managing enterprise-level IT infrastructure.
There are entire classes of problems where the logical solution is fundamentally wrong and only computation theory will prove to you why.
However, I know many people with computer science degrees who are not good programmers (myself included). I use the theory every week though in managing enterprise-level IT infrastructure.
4
"The on-campus program enrolls only 300 students or so, nearly all top students from other countries."
These colleges get tax free goodies and then educate foreigners it makes me puke red, white and blue. Slimeballs
These colleges get tax free goodies and then educate foreigners it makes me puke red, white and blue. Slimeballs
2
They can't get enough US students to enroll in graduate sci-tech programs.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependen...
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependen...
1
For the on-campus program, 85% of the applicants are foreign nationals. Even accepting most of the US citizens you end up with a majority of foreign nationals ultimately.
2
I have a problem understanding the justification of charging as much for an online program as a residential program. I also have a problem with schools that are constantly relying upon underpaid adjunct faculty constantly raising the price of an education.
We need to take a long, hard look at how higher ed is structured in the US. Most are more likely to benefit from a targeted certificate program than a full blown degree.
We need to take a long, hard look at how higher ed is structured in the US. Most are more likely to benefit from a targeted certificate program than a full blown degree.
2
I teach online courses. As much as I try to make it the same as the brick and mortar experience, it simply can't be. Like all other mass produced products the classes will be directed at the lowest common denominator, stress cost effectiveness over quality, and the actual production will be carried out by low-paid workers. In the future universities will regret selling out their "brand" by selling cheaper goods.
34
I agree with you about some of the online college education. There are people who are graduates of a certain for-profit university whom I have worked with who have degrees and can barely put together a grammatically correct sentence while speaking or writing and I just shake my head in amazement. However, having taken a couple of online classes I think that the brick and mortar universities are above that, so I'm quite happy to see what Ga Tech is doing. I wish the masters program I'm about to enter online would lower their cost as well.
"The on-campus program enrolls only 300 students or so, nearly all top students from other countries"
Why other countries? Why not our own?
Why are on campus programs so exorbitant that citizens of our own country cannot afford them. Why the disconnect between a) exorbitant tech programs b) jobs that supposedly 'no' American qualifies for so we 'have to' import from other countries?
Finally, it's great that the online is so much cheaper, but if they're equivalent, then why would rich people want to pay for the on campus program?
Why other countries? Why not our own?
Why are on campus programs so exorbitant that citizens of our own country cannot afford them. Why the disconnect between a) exorbitant tech programs b) jobs that supposedly 'no' American qualifies for so we 'have to' import from other countries?
Finally, it's great that the online is so much cheaper, but if they're equivalent, then why would rich people want to pay for the on campus program?
6
Why so expensive? Because legions of overpaid administrators make 6-figure salaries (above the $350K mark and up), buildings are expensive to build, heat, maintain, cool and so on ... because the university has become a corporation, and legislatures have pulled their funding for higher education, leaving the institutions to engage in expensive, time-consuming fundraising to keep the lights on ... all while employing fewer and fewer tenured professors and more and more adjuncts. The corporate business model has ruined higher education. Fat-cat CEO's running the schools, employing adjuncts at donkey wages with few benefits to do all the heavy lifting.
116
in part, because they are not willing to put the work and effort required. I see it every day in my class.
2
Coming from a similar program at an elite university, I can easily answer your question. Because our own students, barely got into such STEM program with a watered down admission criteria (comparing to foreign ones), tend to be the worst students in such programs. We simply don't create enough qualified candidates in the STEM field for graduate programs.
6
The cost of getting a master's degree was one reason I didn't pursue it in the 80s. The other reason was that to me my college classes were as superficial as my high school classes had been and more expensive. I couldn't see living through another 2-3 years of same thing. I also didn't want to go into debt for a degree and not be able to pay it off or find a job afterwards. The truth is that the job market was not good unless you were in finance.
If we are truly interested and committed to helping people retrain for new jobs or get the best education they can at a cost they can afford this sort of thing would work very well for some fields. It could also provide us with what we need most in America: better educated citizens who can do the technical jobs the future will provide.
If we are truly interested and committed to helping people retrain for new jobs or get the best education they can at a cost they can afford this sort of thing would work very well for some fields. It could also provide us with what we need most in America: better educated citizens who can do the technical jobs the future will provide.
1
Keep in mind that education is the key for any person or group to advance and grow. The current costs are keeping many from getting a higher education. I recently priced the cost of getting a PhD from a mediocre college at $60,000 a year. I just couldn't justify the cost, so it isn't going to happen. Education should be a right not a privilege. There will be stumbling blocks for colleges and Universities in figuring this out, but it will be the future, it has to be. The lack of it will make the split between the privileged and the not-so even wider, and we can see the result of that split today (lots of angry people). This country needs something like this (less expensive education) desperately. If colleges can cover their costs and educate more people, why not?
12
I have taken several online courses. The most recent was a course in Java from Duke. It was very good. I have to admit it was a little confusing at first but once you understand how it works it is absolutely great. The best two features of an online course are as follows:
The professors still lecture but they do it in the form of a video. The advantage of a video is that you can go back and view it at many times as you need to understand the concept that you're not grasping. The second advantage is the online chat room. When an assignment is given and you can't complete it you just go to the chat room and post your questions. Alternatively you can just review the recent threads and it is more than likely that someone has had the same questions and has posted the answer. Sometimes several students got together and solved the problem collaboratively.
I actually learned more from other students than I did from the professors. Try it is definitely hear to stay.
The professors still lecture but they do it in the form of a video. The advantage of a video is that you can go back and view it at many times as you need to understand the concept that you're not grasping. The second advantage is the online chat room. When an assignment is given and you can't complete it you just go to the chat room and post your questions. Alternatively you can just review the recent threads and it is more than likely that someone has had the same questions and has posted the answer. Sometimes several students got together and solved the problem collaboratively.
I actually learned more from other students than I did from the professors. Try it is definitely hear to stay.
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Bravo, Georgia Tech!
4
Many, if not most, colleges and universities charge students tuition based on the number of credit hours for which they enroll during an instructional period. The computation is based on dollars per credit hour, and a minimum number of credits is required to obtain a degree. A student pays the same amount for each credit hour whether it is a large lecture with little or no faculty interaction or a small seminar taught by a very hands-on professor. If the universities used technology to leverage their faculty, they could create price structures that charged more for face-to-face classes where students could interact directly with their peers and the professors (more expensive because of the associated overhead costs), and less for courses taught completely on-line. Students would be able to manage their tuition costs by balancing affordability and educational experience/faculty access. Of course, the current system of charging the same price for everything and then using low-cost (to the university) courses to subsidize all the others would no longer be viable, so the universities would need to adapt by analyzing their costs to establish realistic pricing structures. Perhaps their Economics faculties could help... or perhaps their Economics professors should stop teaching altogether and form consulting companies to help (for a fee) their former employers adapt to the 21st Century.
I have taught online (MOOCs and regular courses) as well as in the classroom, and the difference lies less in the specific medium than in the differing expectations students bring to each environment. An engaging classroom teacher does not necessarily translate into the online environment which seems to demand high production values, very structured exercises, and other labor- and cost-intensive preparation. It may be that, like the old televised college classes or "programmed instruction" of decades ago, the demands for structure in online courses makes them more simplistic and therefore less intellectually challenging.
What would be very interesting to learn is how Georgia Tech finances the production of these courses: $510 for a three-credit class doesn't generate much money once you're paying an outside company to monitor and grade the students' work. are profs given course credit for teaching them? does the university provide the filming and editing? are profs paid to create the courses, and/or for each successive iteration? how is Prof. Isbell paid for his ongoing mentoring over the semester?
What would be very interesting to learn is how Georgia Tech finances the production of these courses: $510 for a three-credit class doesn't generate much money once you're paying an outside company to monitor and grade the students' work. are profs given course credit for teaching them? does the university provide the filming and editing? are profs paid to create the courses, and/or for each successive iteration? how is Prof. Isbell paid for his ongoing mentoring over the semester?
5
Instructors are paid once for creating the course, paid each time they teach a course, and also the creator is paid when the course is taught. Production and editing are paid for up front.
The affordability secret is scale. The big costs are fixed: production and salary for the instructor. With enough students—each one having an incremental cost of nearly zero—those fixed costs are easily swamped. The main linear cost is TAs (just as it is on campus, really).
The affordability secret is scale. The big costs are fixed: production and salary for the instructor. With enough students—each one having an incremental cost of nearly zero—those fixed costs are easily swamped. The main linear cost is TAs (just as it is on campus, really).
I'm a community college math instructor and I love teaching online classes even though counter-intuitively they require more time to teach well. I interact a whole lot more with my online students than my in-person students, and while I'm very good at delivering a heluva lecture to in-person classes on a lot a mathematical topics, I'm just as good at answering questions on those same topics from individual online students using well-crafted messages, both synchronously (chat) and asynchronously (email). Further, I'm convinced that my online students learn more from those online interactions than my in-person students learn from their rare visits to my office.
88
You touch on an interesting point: students in conventional classrooms can be expected to be extremely reluctant to seek help or just discuss an interesting idea with a professor during his office hours. one goes to another student instead. But, online, it seems quite natural for the student and hence it is likely to demand more of the teacher's time.
A moderated forum for students to post questions and answers might be an additional vehicle.
A moderated forum for students to post questions and answers might be an additional vehicle.
5
That's right. How many times can one person answer the same question. over and over again.
And a lot of students use Khan Academy for support. Also M.I.T. OCW.
And a lot of students use Khan Academy for support. Also M.I.T. OCW.
I teach only in-person courses as a full-time faculty member in a undergraduate engineering program. I hold 24-7 online office hours which allow students to e-mail me question on assigned homework or other topics. They do so regularly, and often attach scanned copies of their in-progress work. I check my e-mail frequently while at home and answer quickly. In answering, I attach marked-up copies of student work when it would appear to be helpful. If answers to questions seem as if they might be of interest to other class members, they are posted online on the class web site.
All though this process combines the best of in-person and on-line courses, it is very time intensive. It would be impossible to implement if class enrollments substantially exceeded the thirty of less per course section standard in my department.
All though this process combines the best of in-person and on-line courses, it is very time intensive. It would be impossible to implement if class enrollments substantially exceeded the thirty of less per course section standard in my department.
1
this article fails at answering the very important question of what exactly one gets from the time and money invested. In a traditional program, one has access to professors. Do you get that here? one has interaction with students? is that possible here? One has access to the all important placement service and ancillary activities (i.e., employer presentations, other opportunities to make connections, etc.). Does one have access to guest lecturers out of the traditional class setting? What about field and career related activities such as clubs that are related to computer science/related technology?
This article really needed to go much more in-depth. For all the reader knows this program could consist of watching videos.
This article really needed to go much more in-depth. For all the reader knows this program could consist of watching videos.
2
As someone who has taken classes in one of the program's listed, most of the classes had online discussion in which you were graded on human interaction with other students. And all classes had forums which you could have live discussion with the professor. Guest lectures were not a part of my curriculum, but my public university education didn't have guest lectures either. Clubs are also irrelevant because of us had full time jobs.
bill, thanks for the answers. The writer of this article should have answered some of the questions posed.
I would like to have read about how their online vs. face to face programs compare. Do they have the same profs? The same requirements? What about testing and other graded work? Thesis? And will their degree have an asterisk by it, that it was online, like the "executive" MBAs...watered down versions of the real degree.
5
good questions. If only the article answered them. Somehow one has a feeling that there is a reason this degree only costs a fraction of the traditional.
5
I'm a current student in this program.
yes the professors are the same.
as far as I know all requirements are same for online and on campus classes.
testing is done through a proctoring service.
projects and assignments are graded by TAs
online and on campus students get the same degree.
I can ensure you through my experience , the online program is in no way watered down.
yes the professors are the same.
as far as I know all requirements are same for online and on campus classes.
testing is done through a proctoring service.
projects and assignments are graded by TAs
online and on campus students get the same degree.
I can ensure you through my experience , the online program is in no way watered down.
81
There is no distinction between the online and on-campus degrees. Both receive an MS in CS. The requirements are the same. There is no asterisk.
There is quite a bit of evidence that the online experience for this program is not only as good as the on-campus experience, but in some respects superior, in large part because of the infrastructure that supports community building for the students and the students themselves. I would recommend: http://www.davidjoyner.net/blog/the-unexpected-pedagogical-benefits-of-m...
There is quite a bit of evidence that the online experience for this program is not only as good as the on-campus experience, but in some respects superior, in large part because of the infrastructure that supports community building for the students and the students themselves. I would recommend: http://www.davidjoyner.net/blog/the-unexpected-pedagogical-benefits-of-m...
3
An online computer science degree may be more reasonable than any other online degree as the very act of using online tools helps prepared one for the career. Having said this, however, nearly every other Masters Program requires labs or writing that are not rote learning. Kudus to Georgia Tech for making this possible, but beware of drawing the wrong conclusions.
2
A dirty little secret is that many private colleges use MS and MEng programs as for-profit enterprises to help make up for the money the lose on pretty much every other kind of degree. That's why the tuitions at USC, Syracuse, etc. you cite are so high - substantially higher than BA, MA, or PhD tuitions.
Beyond that, a masters degree, particularly in computer science, is perhaps unique in its suitability for on-line study. For one thing, students are probably highly motivated and already have good study skills. These are generally non-thesis masters, so close collaboration with a professor is less necessary. And there is no need to work in a chemistry or mechanics lab, staring down a microscope, or to spend hours in a university library digging out nineteenth century texts. All you need is a computer and internet connection.
This is a solution to a very small part of the education cost problem, not a breakthrough.
Beyond that, a masters degree, particularly in computer science, is perhaps unique in its suitability for on-line study. For one thing, students are probably highly motivated and already have good study skills. These are generally non-thesis masters, so close collaboration with a professor is less necessary. And there is no need to work in a chemistry or mechanics lab, staring down a microscope, or to spend hours in a university library digging out nineteenth century texts. All you need is a computer and internet connection.
This is a solution to a very small part of the education cost problem, not a breakthrough.
122
Beyond that, a masters degree, particularly in computer science, is perhaps unique in its suitability for on-line study.
as a graduate with an masters I would argue the opposite. That is, human interaction with professors and students is absolutely vital. does this on-line degree offer this?
as a graduate with an masters I would argue the opposite. That is, human interaction with professors and students is absolutely vital. does this on-line degree offer this?
The dirty little secret is college is a money making scam tax free like most religions.
1
That used to be said about law schools -- hey, only books needed. Then the market dropped out, very badly .. thank God.
Education is an exchange of love. On-line programs interfere with this natural human exchange and take much away from the experience. This article focuses only on the positives of on-line learning and ignores the vast down sides. What is the: quality of the degrees offered, graduation rate, suicide rate? Education is about the human being as much as about the degree.
3
Soon, very soon, one of these prestigious universities will figure out how to replace human teaching assistants with AI. The price of the credential will fall, and the value of it will fall precipitously, disastrously even.
1
oh believe me that's already happening.
I was taking an AI class in the spring semester, at the end of the semester the professor announced that one of the TAs in the class (Jill Watson) was an experimental AI agent ! how amazing is that ?!
I , however, don't agree with you that having AI TAs will devalue the credential in any way.
I was taking an AI class in the spring semester, at the end of the semester the professor announced that one of the TAs in the class (Jill Watson) was an experimental AI agent ! how amazing is that ?!
I , however, don't agree with you that having AI TAs will devalue the credential in any way.
Sure MOOCs are the end of education as we know it. These are so successful that I am sure those that can afford it (the 1%), are not only having their college age kids educated this way but also their grammar and HS age kids. Not. Why do only 1% of students complete these courses? Go back in NYT and read the article about students at MIT who hate the online courses.
I teach at the college level and I am willing to pay for my children to have a lecture versus an online class. I don't know the psychology on why being in the lecture is different that online (discipline, personal interaction, other), but it is.
Parents, when visiting colleges ask about the number of online courses. If students must take online classes to graduate, run, don't walk way.
I teach at the college level and I am willing to pay for my children to have a lecture versus an online class. I don't know the psychology on why being in the lecture is different that online (discipline, personal interaction, other), but it is.
Parents, when visiting colleges ask about the number of online courses. If students must take online classes to graduate, run, don't walk way.
26
A little known secret about teaching (at least at the college level): the most important thing a live (in-person) teacher adds is the ability to keep the students *focused* and *committed*. This happens both in the classroom during the lecture, and by the social expectations that persist outside of the lecture (for the student to continue, for assignments to be completed on time, etc.). That is why the attrition rate is so high for online courses -- the students lose focus and their participation dwindles. Online courses try to mitigate this problem, but it is very hard to beat the live classroom experience in this regard.
4
... the attrition rate is so high for online courses ...
---------- because they're unedited, carelessly filmed, and have actual errors . after all that, one can't contact the prof (or even the program ) and tell them of the bugs, glitches, spelling errors, omissions etc . . .
---------- because they're unedited, carelessly filmed, and have actual errors . after all that, one can't contact the prof (or even the program ) and tell them of the bugs, glitches, spelling errors, omissions etc . . .
2
The Bachelor's degree has become for my generation what the high school diploma was for my parent's generation. The progression is for more and more companies to hire Masters' or better in a pretty wide variety of fields, and I suspect this type of competition in the marketplace will only accelerate that trend.
16
After decades, I decided to finish my degree and set about looking for colleges and universities nearby. -- And quickly decided a degree was not worth a second mortgage. I found a degree program online at a reputable university and a full load of classes for less than I spent on my used truck.
The professors were engaging, encouraging and exacting. My fellow students were highly motivated and generous to others in the class.
College educations, like cars and, it seems, most everything in our country are now prized not for how well they achieve their purpose but how much prestige they confer upon those who can afford its steep price.
I will be pursuing a masters and I will, in all likelihood, do so through an online program. A traditioal campus would be hard-pressed to match the affordability, the flexibility and the quality to be had online.
The professors were engaging, encouraging and exacting. My fellow students were highly motivated and generous to others in the class.
College educations, like cars and, it seems, most everything in our country are now prized not for how well they achieve their purpose but how much prestige they confer upon those who can afford its steep price.
I will be pursuing a masters and I will, in all likelihood, do so through an online program. A traditioal campus would be hard-pressed to match the affordability, the flexibility and the quality to be had online.
44
A traditioal campus would be hard-pressed to match the affordability, the flexibility and the quality to be had online.
I agree on affordability and flexibility but not necessarily on the quality aspect.
I agree on affordability and flexibility but not necessarily on the quality aspect.
" .. Hillary Clinton has proposed an ambitious and expensive plan to lower the price of college by subsidizing public institutions and lowering interest rates on outstanding student debt .."
Which is grossly unfair to the 70% of Americans who have decided not to become trial lawyers or surgeons. Why should they pay, so others may benefit? Where's the "fairness?"
Which is grossly unfair to the 70% of Americans who have decided not to become trial lawyers or surgeons. Why should they pay, so others may benefit? Where's the "fairness?"
College degree is a ticket, a union card, not much more. If job requirements were changed NOT to require so many degrees, colleges would clear out, faster than free beer in a frat on a Thursday night.
It depends on which degree you are talking about. As retired scientists, we know a student can't do laboratory or field research on line if you have to actually be physically present to do the work. This is even true for those that are older and want to go back for their masters or PhD. There are also graduate seminars that could be done by video conferencing but one would miss the interaction with others. There are just some parts of a graduate students life that cannot be taught on line. Attending conferences, presenting papers, professional development, etc. As to costs, of the 40+ graduate committees for PhD's and masters we served on during our careers, all of them received assistantships either research or teaching or both, usually in state tuition waivers or full tuition waivers, reducing the costs considerably. Research grants often covered travel and living expenses. A good graduate adviser can figure out a way to reduce costs. We are all in favor of on line courses for any regular class requirements, it may leave more time for research.
13
The traditional education model is dying a slow but very painful death. Better wake up before it's too late you highly paid tenured professors and administrators. This is the Uber of the education space. It's only the very beginning.
22
Highly paid tenured professors? 75% of college professors are part-time adjuncts such as myself. I pull in a whopping $28,000 a year to teach a full-time load of 11 classes. at a community college. I work a catering job and one day a week I digitize records at a doctor's office just to scrape by. A union janitor in neighboring Detroit starts at $22,000 a year, so maybe the traditional janitor service will die a slow death as well.
131
As an education professional, shouldn't you be able to tell the difference between "highly paid tenured professors" and "part-time adjuncts"? In my earlier comment, it is you, the part-time adjuncts, who will be replaced by AI. I suppose we should call that day Monday, then on Tuesday, the first tranch of highly paid tenured professors will be replaced, then by Friday the only people left on staff will be the Humanities/History/English worthless lefties. They have no intelligence for AI to emulate.
lee, ironically the on-line schools will not be able to function because of the poor pay they may offer to potential teachers or, vice versa, the demand they create may increase salaries. Not sure which.
3
To me, the question isn't whether an in-person degree is better. It's whether it's so much better that we should force people relocate, sit in a chair in a classroom, and spend well over $150,000 for the right to take the bar exam. Keep in mind, we're talking about imprisoning people who do on line degrees and pass the California bar for attempting to practice in other states.
Low bar passage rates from non-elite schools are a problem, sure, but the real problem seems to me that students who don't pass are forced to go a couple hundred g's in debt. An online degree, for $7k a year or less, would open this up to more talented students who can't necessarily attend a law school.
And also, keep in in mind that there is real harm in preventing people from doing this. Lawyers regulate everything, so personally, I wouldn't mind seeing, say, a mid career structural engineer get a law degree and preside over litigation concerning structural problems in buildings. Keeping these people out may do little to improve the quality of lawyers - in fact, it probably reduces the quality by preventing people with actual experience in the world lawyers regulate from practicing law.