9 years? That's it?! He should be fined, he should have to rebuild them by hand for the rest of his miserable life. With the help of other's that surely participated. This man is slime and I don't care about his pathetic apology.
1
Places of Worship of the Yazidis in Iraq.
America's timely airstrikes in Sinjar Mountains saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Yazidis in Iraq; however, ISIS, who call Yazidis infidels destroyed most of their humble places of worship A totally nonviolent people, the Yazidis have lived in peace with Sunnis and Shiites until the emergence of the wrathful ISIS.
With ISIS's flight from Iraq and Syria not so far away, it is time for the United Nations and the United States government to raise funds to restore the amiable and lovable Yazidis their places of worship that ISIS marauders desecrated and decimated.
America's timely airstrikes in Sinjar Mountains saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Yazidis in Iraq; however, ISIS, who call Yazidis infidels destroyed most of their humble places of worship A totally nonviolent people, the Yazidis have lived in peace with Sunnis and Shiites until the emergence of the wrathful ISIS.
With ISIS's flight from Iraq and Syria not so far away, it is time for the United Nations and the United States government to raise funds to restore the amiable and lovable Yazidis their places of worship that ISIS marauders desecrated and decimated.
The crimes against the Islamic heritage and people of the world famous center of historic scholarship Timbuktu, were committed by a group whose fanatical and aberrant ideology is directly traced to the Wahhabism of the despotic Saudi "royal" family. How revealing the bitter irony that the main strategic objective of US Central Command has long been to keep this despotic Saudi family on its throne-an objective which led to the massive death and destruction of Operation Desert Storm and in turn that of 9/11.
1
Nine years is something, but in my opinion destruction of a timeless object requires a timeless punishment. In these situations, I have more sympathy for the object than the person. To me, life in prison would be A-OK.
3
It is about time at we start to recognize that the destruction of antiquities is not only a crime but a crime that will be prosecuted. The problem is, however, finding the perpetrators and bringing them to justice.
3
It's a start.
3
Nine years of imprisonment for destroying multiple cultural monuments of mankind dating back 800 years or more? The lightness of this sentence is absurd. The perpetrator should have spent the rest of his life in prison. It is all too characteristic of Europeans' "light sentencing" habits and of the fecklessness of this international tribunal.
2
Too bad he did not get the full 30 years with no chance for parole
Actions speak louder than words. His apology is difficult to believe.
2
What about Turkey's dams which have already engulfed many treasures of classical antiquity and are about to do even worse (recent article in the NYT).
What about Turkey's past wanton destruction of Armenian monuments and present neglect of those very few which have somehow survived on its usurped territory.
Turkey is the only remaining beneficiary of the treaty of Brest Litowsk concocted by the Germans during World War One which attributed a good part of the Russian possessions in the Caucasus area to the Ottomans including a sizable chunk of Armenia.
What happened in Timbuktu is only one more manifestation of what we are now seeing in Syria and Irak, stupidity and fanatism cloaked as religious purity.
What about Turkey's past wanton destruction of Armenian monuments and present neglect of those very few which have somehow survived on its usurped territory.
Turkey is the only remaining beneficiary of the treaty of Brest Litowsk concocted by the Germans during World War One which attributed a good part of the Russian possessions in the Caucasus area to the Ottomans including a sizable chunk of Armenia.
What happened in Timbuktu is only one more manifestation of what we are now seeing in Syria and Irak, stupidity and fanatism cloaked as religious purity.
5
Really, who gave the Muslim majority lands of the Caucasus and Anatolia to imperial Russia. And what about the destruction of priceless Ottoman monuments by Orthodox Christians as seen most recently by the Serbs in Bosnia and Kosova?
See a lot of outrage here. How about taking some responsibility for the bombing of ancient cities like Baghdad and beyond?
From Wikipedia:"2003 invasion of Iraq"
"Zainab Bahrani, professor of Ancient Near Eastern Art History and Archaeology at Columbia University, reported that a helicopter landing pad was constructed in the heart of the ancient city of Babylon, and "removed layers of archeological earth from the site. The daily flights of the helicopters rattle the ancient walls and the winds created by their rotors blast sand against the fragile bricks. When my colleague at the site, Maryam Moussa, and I asked military personnel in charge that the helipad be shut down, the response was that it had to remain open for security reasons, for the safety of the troops."[207] Bahrani also reported that in the summer of 2004, "the wall of the Temple of Nabu and the roof of the Temple of Ninmah, both sixth century BC, collapsed as a result of the movement of helicopters."[207] Electrical power is scarce in post-war Iraq, Bahrani reported, and some fragile artifacts, including the Ottoman Archive, would not survive the loss of refrigeration.[207]
From Wikipedia:"2003 invasion of Iraq"
"Zainab Bahrani, professor of Ancient Near Eastern Art History and Archaeology at Columbia University, reported that a helicopter landing pad was constructed in the heart of the ancient city of Babylon, and "removed layers of archeological earth from the site. The daily flights of the helicopters rattle the ancient walls and the winds created by their rotors blast sand against the fragile bricks. When my colleague at the site, Maryam Moussa, and I asked military personnel in charge that the helipad be shut down, the response was that it had to remain open for security reasons, for the safety of the troops."[207] Bahrani also reported that in the summer of 2004, "the wall of the Temple of Nabu and the roof of the Temple of Ninmah, both sixth century BC, collapsed as a result of the movement of helicopters."[207] Electrical power is scarce in post-war Iraq, Bahrani reported, and some fragile artifacts, including the Ottoman Archive, would not survive the loss of refrigeration.[207]
5
it's possible to deem the crime heinous and yet believe that sentencing someone two nine years of wasteful sitting is, well, wasteful. Is there nothing the defendant, given his seeming regret for his deed, might be compelled to do which would be more valuable for us, and him, then nine years being pent?
2
I can't really justify my reaction, but these barbaric cultural and historical desecrations infuriate me as much as the horrible human cruelties of these maniacs.
6
The world has forever lost this patrimony, but he gets only nine years of punishment for his truly stupid act?
I agree. I'm sorry just isn't good enough.
4
Mr. Abdel Kader Haidara is the Timbuktu custodial librarian of hundreds of thousands of priceless manuscripts in Arabic dating back centuries. Some manuscripts in Turkish and Hebrew predate Islam and have been in his family’s possession for centuries. When Haidara learned of the imminent attack on Timbuktu, he managed to smuggle the manuscripts to safety in Bamako. The manuscripts are being digitized as fast as possible since the parchments are delicate and decaying.
5
A Muslim destroying a Muslim shrine? What am I missing here?
Not the "right" Islam. Not extreme enough. There are sects, or denominations, as in most religions. Religion poisons everything.
6
Primitive cultural heritage and traditions are one of the most ruinous reasons for wars and hate across history. When finally mankind realizes that Science is the only valid and honest way to make decisions progress will gain a beneficial foothold in the interests of all of us.
Rational thought is a worthy goal, but attempts to take emotion out of humanity is an exercise in futility. All scientific "facts" are tentative and open to reinterpretation or repudiation. The scientific definition of a theory should replace the word fact, e.g. a theory successfully answers many questions on a subject and has yet to be proven false.
9 years is NOT ENOUGH! I'm sick of these brutal men being able to say oh...I sorry I've seen the error of my way. Horse feathers. He'd still be out ther doing this stuff if he hadn't been caught. It's time to take a hard line.
There was a time not long ago when the news was dominated by near daily atrocities committed by ISIS, destruction of antiquities and artifacts, some 3,000 years old. Their intent was the annihilation of any trace of a way of life, traditions, culture and art created during unique moments in history.
We living in current civilization sometimes forget the immense importance of art, sculpture and architecture from times long past, which are a literal preservation of peoples living before us, their living artifacts demonstrating beliefs and attitudes long before our time. In so many ways, these ancient peoples and their ways are an inseparable part of who we are today.
These cultural artifacts are priceless and often, irreplaceable and unrepairable. As one reader noted of ISIS destructive march across Syria and Iraq, these artistic treasures are wonders that truly belong to the world. The long prison sentence of this man is appropriate and warranted.
We living in current civilization sometimes forget the immense importance of art, sculpture and architecture from times long past, which are a literal preservation of peoples living before us, their living artifacts demonstrating beliefs and attitudes long before our time. In so many ways, these ancient peoples and their ways are an inseparable part of who we are today.
These cultural artifacts are priceless and often, irreplaceable and unrepairable. As one reader noted of ISIS destructive march across Syria and Iraq, these artistic treasures are wonders that truly belong to the world. The long prison sentence of this man is appropriate and warranted.
5
I've wondered how temples, churches, shrines and other archeological sites are deemed pagan and idolatrous while mosques and the Ka'aba aren't.
Intolerance. Just like the time of the Inquisition.
2
I wonder what sentence Mr. Mahdi would have recommended for someone who made a passing derogatory remark about Mohammed. . . . ?
This is a good first step by the International War Crimes court but it is past time to bring war crime charges against mass murderer Assad and his regime for carpet bombing their own people to try to retain power in Syria. Assad called in Russia to help and I do not see the court bringing charges against Russia but there is plenty of evidence to arrest, try and convict Assad. What are they waiting for? I do not want anymore of my hard-earned American taxpayer money used to increase our participation in the Middle East.
The sentence would be more meaningful if it were carried out against Muslims who destroy the cultural heritage of other people rather than their own.
No, it should be for ALL the cultural destruction, no mater what religion.
3
You mean like GWB who after the capture of Baghdad tightly secured the Petroleum Ministry but neglected to protect the Iraqi National Library and above all Baghdad's Museum?
6
Religious fanaticism breeds intolerance of others, and even of ancient cultural treasures one may not understand or disagree with. A closed mind at the time, irrational to us...but perhaps perfectly aligned to destroy what he couldn't understand, let alone leave alone for others' enjoyment. Ignorance is complicit with a make-believe system despising our humanity and the world that makes life possible, and the only reality we know of. A secular education may be the answer, if ever a closed theistic society wakes up to its own stupidity, and allows some light on the subject.
I'd rather they put him to work rebuilding these shrines for the rest of his life.
He should be made to stand in front of the rubble for 9 years with a sign that says "I helped destroy your heritage."
So the ICC only has jurisdiction over those who are in-network? And it seems an act related to pursuing a war is only a crime if the war is considered unjust; witness our own 'collateral damage' razing of large parts of the Mideast. Of course, sending a a cruise missile into downtown Baghdad carries no intent to erase cultural anything.
I think the ICC should back up a couple of notches and figure out how to define the differences between just war, unjust war, insurrection, holy war, and, as Nuremburg tried to define, a war of aggression.
Henry VIII, as part of his complicated means for getting a divorce, caused churches all over England to be razed, but that's just quaint history, not cultural crime...
In the US, due to a very short history, we have few cultural sites. Maybe the razing of Penn Station could be considered a crime, or any of the things we did to Native American sites. Don't hold your breath.
I think the ICC should back up a couple of notches and figure out how to define the differences between just war, unjust war, insurrection, holy war, and, as Nuremburg tried to define, a war of aggression.
Henry VIII, as part of his complicated means for getting a divorce, caused churches all over England to be razed, but that's just quaint history, not cultural crime...
In the US, due to a very short history, we have few cultural sites. Maybe the razing of Penn Station could be considered a crime, or any of the things we did to Native American sites. Don't hold your breath.
A slap on the wrist in the scheme of things. They'll probably cut a deal and he'll by out before the end of 2017.
He should have been put to work restoring as much of what he destroyed as possible. It would demonstrate true remorse and the value of the work that went into these cultural treasures.
Now if only the Hague would prosecute and punish the those individuals who destroy family homes in Palestine - a State sponsored crime against humanity that continues on unpunished. It certainly appears like "deliberate attacks on a people’s heritage when they are an intrinsic part of warfare [occupation], meant to destroy a group’s history and identity" and home.
Now if only the Hague would prosecute and punish the those individuals who destroy family homes in Palestine - a State sponsored crime against humanity that continues on unpunished. It certainly appears like "deliberate attacks on a people’s heritage when they are an intrinsic part of warfare [occupation], meant to destroy a group’s history and identity" and home.
There are four purposes to criminal sentencing: protection of society, punishment, rehabilitation, and deterrence of others. Nine years with possibility of parole seems a good fit. Let him serve part of it while taking history lessons.
Yes, and from those history lessons, he can figure out what historical cultural objects he can next destroy once he's out of prison. Great idea.
Nine years. Wimpy sentences is a measure of the Europeans' decline. They are self-emasculated, they are supine.
Britons excepted. They seem to know the score.
Britons excepted. They seem to know the score.
The true measure of a country's greatness is their willingness to keep lots of people for long stretches of time, eh?
China, Iran, and North Korea are truly the greatest countries in the world.
China, Iran, and North Korea are truly the greatest countries in the world.
I'll celebrate with prison sentences for industrialist and capitalist who 'destroy' air, soil, food supply with genetically modified non-nutritional stuff, oceans - and other waters.
And what shall you be doing till then, anything worthwhile?
"Mr. Mahdi said he regretted his actions and begged the people of Timbuktu for forgiveness."
Sounds like he's getting his cues from some of our political hacks out here in Washington. This excuse works wonders out here for our business executives and politicians- so more power to him.
Sounds like he's getting his cues from some of our political hacks out here in Washington. This excuse works wonders out here for our business executives and politicians- so more power to him.
A witch destroys a warlock's tomb. It's a tricky, emotionally-fraught situation for the UN and ICC to get involved. These are cults, by any definition of the term 'cult'; you could also call them religions. Splinter groups of cults have internecine battles throughout history. They'll be locked in their barbaric behavior forever unless intervention succeeds.
Kudos to the UN and ICC for getting involved in this situation; and good luck.
Kudos to the UN and ICC for getting involved in this situation; and good luck.
Witches and warlocks are imaginary, much like gods and devils. Those do not exist. But valuable ancient heritage of all cultures must be preserved. Maybe you can't appreciate it, but your grandchildren might.
Ancient irreplaceable buildings are part of no one's "cult", they're part of our common human ancestry.
I think you misread. Go ahead: preserve what you call 'culture'. But realize there are risks to preserving one pile of sticks and stones over another's vision (which in this case is to destroy the 'sacred' structure.) Do you want to adjudicate this culture war? Some group will end up hating you.
When the crazed followers of the witches/warlocks/gods/devils hear their warlocks speaking to them, or when they are interpreting the witch's sacred book, the acolytes often get violent.
Measure it, take a picture of it, record it, even protect it. But please don't tax me for the preservation of such "valuable culture". Modern humans living in the 21st century get no value from it. These efforts bring nothing but bloodshed.
The same shortsighted worship of 'sacred' soil and 'holy' temples by bearded zealots and temple magicians has condemned the mideast to millennia of bloodshed. The earth would be better off moving on from the iron age.
All gods are myths.
When the crazed followers of the witches/warlocks/gods/devils hear their warlocks speaking to them, or when they are interpreting the witch's sacred book, the acolytes often get violent.
Measure it, take a picture of it, record it, even protect it. But please don't tax me for the preservation of such "valuable culture". Modern humans living in the 21st century get no value from it. These efforts bring nothing but bloodshed.
The same shortsighted worship of 'sacred' soil and 'holy' temples by bearded zealots and temple magicians has condemned the mideast to millennia of bloodshed. The earth would be better off moving on from the iron age.
All gods are myths.
9 years in prison is a good start. However, he should at least given a chance for parole, if only to show how the west is more civislised than the barbarism prevalent in Jihadi land. Have him take art classes and present his exhibit after, say, 5 years. Surely there's some museum in The Hague that would be willing to vounteer space for a good cause. Then have his work evaluated by art critics, whose feedback will result in an appropriate reduction of his sentence.
"The arc of history is long, and it bends towards justice." MLK
Not so I can notice.
I see no evidence that history has any kind of innate trajectory.
Imagine if someone destroyed our Western iconic works of art: The Mona Lisa, the David, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Would we consider 9 years in prison a reasonable punishment? Such destruction of cultural icons, no matter the culture, should come with life imprisonment. It constitutes a form of hate crime, an effort at cultural (if not literal) genocide, and damage that will now extend into eternity as a loss for generations that are not even born yet. No person who wreaks such cultural destruction, at the expense of so many, should every walk free again.
Well said. Couldn't agree more.
"It was not immediately clear where he will serve his sentence." How about Hell? Anyone who believes that music and photography should be outlawed while abduction and rape are acceptable- and then uses religion as an exculpatory rationale- doesn't belong on a planet occupied by human beings.
On the other hand, the key point of a justice system is punishment AND rehabilitation – legal systems operating for vengeance are a recipe for disaster.
By various accounts, the defendant was remorseful – not simply because he was caught – and assisted The Hague to the best of his abilities; legal systems recognise that, just as most Nazis were just sent home after the war, there will be – and are – plenty of members of ISIS who won’t draw down any particular punishment.
After all, given how many ‘supporters’ who signed up when ISIS took over their towns and territories – frankly, most of us would probably ‘join’ ISIS if the choice was that or being beheaded with a bunch of our neighbours – there are various tiers within the organisation that are now being regarded differently, now that the still inherently evil terrorist group has long since achieved a notable mass, requiring everything from teachers and police to bakers and sanitation workers to, yes, beheaders, to function en masse.
I’m not for a moment condoning the destruction of artefacts and tombs in Timbuktu. The destruction of a people’s past is a calculated move to destroy their heritage and worth, and to reduce, or even sever, their future.
Still, intellectually speaking, The Hague would appear to have acted sensibly, judging a footsoldier on his specific individual actions, rather than punishing him for the whole - the mark of a fair and functioning justice system, which is something ISIS deny their victims.
By various accounts, the defendant was remorseful – not simply because he was caught – and assisted The Hague to the best of his abilities; legal systems recognise that, just as most Nazis were just sent home after the war, there will be – and are – plenty of members of ISIS who won’t draw down any particular punishment.
After all, given how many ‘supporters’ who signed up when ISIS took over their towns and territories – frankly, most of us would probably ‘join’ ISIS if the choice was that or being beheaded with a bunch of our neighbours – there are various tiers within the organisation that are now being regarded differently, now that the still inherently evil terrorist group has long since achieved a notable mass, requiring everything from teachers and police to bakers and sanitation workers to, yes, beheaders, to function en masse.
I’m not for a moment condoning the destruction of artefacts and tombs in Timbuktu. The destruction of a people’s past is a calculated move to destroy their heritage and worth, and to reduce, or even sever, their future.
Still, intellectually speaking, The Hague would appear to have acted sensibly, judging a footsoldier on his specific individual actions, rather than punishing him for the whole - the mark of a fair and functioning justice system, which is something ISIS deny their victims.
Sorry you cannot rehabilitate some people like this man.
True enough, many of us would have been card-carrying members of the National Socialist Party (aka NAZIs) in say, 1934 Germany if that was better for our job, our business, our health.
I remember my father saying the first full sentence he learned as a young GI in post-war Rhineland: "Ish bein keiner Nazi"--"I was not a Nazi" (forgive my poor transliteration)
He said it was often the first thing people said to him--causing him to wonder: a whole country at war, and none of them were Nazis??
I remember my father saying the first full sentence he learned as a young GI in post-war Rhineland: "Ish bein keiner Nazi"--"I was not a Nazi" (forgive my poor transliteration)
He said it was often the first thing people said to him--causing him to wonder: a whole country at war, and none of them were Nazis??
1
Why didn't your headline read "radical Islamist"? The following article pointed out the destruction was the work radical Islamists -- the headline should have indicated this as well. "Extremist" or "Militant" is inaccurate and misleading -- and fundamentally dishonest.
Yes, it's a big conspiracy to protect radical Muslims,
For the same reason Catholics and Protestants in Ireland weren't called "radical Christians" when the violent fringe were not being nice to each other.
Maybe the New York Times assumed that its readers are smart enough to actually read the whole article, and not just stop at the headline and assume they know everything.
Nine years for destroying the identity of the human race? That's a "slap on the wrist". For those who think they can take a jihadi vacation from Molenbek, London or other western terrorist centers to destroy the world's archeological treasures, they'll think again if they see their compadres getting hanged.
It seems like a long time and may or may not send an example.
It is pale in comparison to some people that still languish in jail with life or 25 year sentences for non violent drug offense, and THAT is a crime.
It is pale in comparison to some people that still languish in jail with life or 25 year sentences for non violent drug offense, and THAT is a crime.
No one is in jail for 25 years for "nonviolent" drug offenses unless they were caught with $200 million worth.
Nonsense. I remember a guy in Texas who got life imprisonment for a single joint. He served 17 years before public outcry freed him. He was African-American. The same judge gave a white murderer probation--but the murderer was the brother-in-law of a congressman. See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&... for details.
You need to read more! There are pole I jail for much more for much less.
At the end of WWII the captured German S.S. were shown the ruins of Stalingrad and told to rebuild it. For the next decade they lived off rotten cabbage and fish bones. Although it didn't get it done any faster, I don't feel upset over the punishment. Something more needs to be done about this primitive and senseless behavior of tearing down mankind's achievements.
I assume, then, that dismantling nuclear weapons breaks your heart too?