We decreased the stress of paying for college several ways: 1) we only had one child 2) we both worked full-time 3) we bought a house we could afford to pay off at least a year before the child started college so we could use the funds that would have gone toward a mortgage to fund college 4) we saved $50 monthly in a mutual fund 5) we told our child we would spend the equivalent of what it cost for her to attend a state school, so scholarship money would be needed if she chose something else. She graduates this spring debt-free. We took the money out of the mutual fund and are using it for ourselves.
4
JEEZE! Reading this thread of comments is mildly depressing. I come from a very poor family, (4 person household with net income of $21k annually). My parents hadn't put away a dime for my sister and I to go to college. Funnily enough, both of my parents had the means to smoke a pack a day, that's $70 a week. If they put that $70 a week away in the bank from birth until age 18, that would be $30k for each child.
However, that never happened so I'm 20 years old, finishing up my last semester of community college and struggling to pay for it. Mind you I am a full time student and working 35-40 hours per week. In the fall I'm headed to a public university with some academic scholarships and the PELL grant, but that still barely makes a dent in tuition.
Case in point, not all students are fortunate enough to have parents that are forward thinking. Seeing some of the negative attitudes towards federal grants and borrowing makes my stomach turn.
Does anyone here think I chose to be born to a poor household? I've worked since I was 16, still hasn't made a significant impact on my finances in regards to college expenses.
SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE!!
However, that never happened so I'm 20 years old, finishing up my last semester of community college and struggling to pay for it. Mind you I am a full time student and working 35-40 hours per week. In the fall I'm headed to a public university with some academic scholarships and the PELL grant, but that still barely makes a dent in tuition.
Case in point, not all students are fortunate enough to have parents that are forward thinking. Seeing some of the negative attitudes towards federal grants and borrowing makes my stomach turn.
Does anyone here think I chose to be born to a poor household? I've worked since I was 16, still hasn't made a significant impact on my finances in regards to college expenses.
SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE!!
12
It is important when starting a family to think about what kind of future you want your kids to have. Many people who start families try to make sure they are financially stable, and start saving up for their child's future; whether it be for college or just trust. A earlier comment in this section stated that a friend of theirs would have more money save for their child's education if their family didn't take extravagant vacations every summer. Although there is some truth to that statement, that might not always be the case. Even if that family began to take basic vacations it doesn't mean that they'll have more money for their children's education saved. Let's say that the family decides to take less extravagant vacations, the money they saved from that could be spent on something else like a new car, or renovations to their home. Every family is different and what is extravagant the writer of the original comment, may not be extravagant to the family they are describing. People must realize that every family isn't black and white, there are more factors that come into play. Extravagant summer vacations might be the only time of the year where that family can "splurge". Also, the family may not need to save too much, maybe their children will be receiving scholarships or qualify for financial aid.
You forgot the option of starting with two years of community college. Our local 2-year college, by the accounts of high-school counselors, faculty, and former students, offers the same curriculum as our state university system at one-half the cost. I already paid for the difference through my property taxes; so why not take advantage? Transfers later to the four-year system is almost automatic. Also, my two daughters are living at home, nearly for free. Finally, in four years, their BS diploma will not say "she started out in community college."
1
I wish a candidate would bring forth the idea of citizens paying into education rather than healthcare like they do in a lot of countries. I would much rather be taxed to assist with education and live in a society of higher educated individuals than have to pay a higher insurance premium to cover those who make poor health decisions who are accessing the healthcare system with little or no insurance (as a majority of healthcare costs are associated with preventable diseases). Equality starts with education, and those who are higher educated practice better health (see attached article). How about two birds with one stone?
http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0516_higher_education.html
http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0516_higher_education.html
I am tired of hearing from the many who seem to assume that most of us would be healthy (and not need expensive health care) if we hadn't done something wrong. I have never smoked, never used alcohol or drugs, have never been obese, and try to lead a life that leads to good health. This hasn't prevented me from developing a couple of serious (and expensive) chronic illnesses.
Start by knowing what your students spending choices are. With care you may need less money than you think. Online calculators help; like this one which will also estimate what your after graduation income will be
https://www.yourmoneypage.com/education/studentloan.php
https://www.yourmoneypage.com/education/studentloan.php
Both the education and health sector have now become net negatives for the economy. The advice given by author is all and good but curtailing family expenditure, mortgaging home, sacrificing retirement, to feed the insatiable health and education beasts is already hurting the broader consumer economy. At what point will the cost curve be controlled? Right now as illustrated by the epipen episode and the ever fantastical politician ideas about "free" college, government is enabling price gouging by protecting these sectors via regulations and loan policies. Many commenters who provide European examples don't realize that in addition to high tax rates, they fund their universities via "rationing" only a select subset of Germans gets to study liberal arts in universities .
2
I am shocked that nobody asks why attending Universities should cost $75K per year in a first place. It's a disgrace to the GREEDY higher education system that way outpaced the general inflation. Shame on the "BIG Education" sector... you became just like BIG OIL, BIG PHARMA. etc.
3
I just attended a college fair with my daughter, a high school junior, and had sticker shock that the current retail rate for many private colleges per year including room and board is over $65K per year. I told my daughter that unless she qualifies for some significant price reductions through merit scholarships, it makes sense to price out local public colleges for at least the first year or two, and find out about transferring for the last 2 years. I can't imagine amassing so much debt for an undergraduate degree -- what a millstone!
2
It's not feasible to save much even without frills for the majority of working parents, to say nothing of families with an unemployed or underemployed spouse. For one thing, the cost of day care was almost equal to an undergraduate degree. In Massachusetts, public universities average about $25,000. per year. Privates, after "scholarships" are about $30,000 or higher. I'm paying my daughter's grad school, which is not recommended as I edge towards retirement. But she already has $24,000. in loans from undergraduate. That after I paid $3000. a month and took out a $10,000. parent loan, which I'm still paying off at $300. a month over four + years. If I had had more than one child, they would leave school, hopefully for meaningful, well-paid work, over $50,000 in debt. That is no way to start life. Our country does not support the so-called middle class or the reality of women's/family life.
4
Instead of spending 25 years in service to a University, ignore rational planning and live at the edge of your means. Go big on summer vacations. Live in a great house. Why drive American when you can put Autobahn breeding in your garage? All the while, send your kids to the best private school around. Make sure they're attractive to colleges, or the plan could backfire. After 15 years.....you've saved nothing.
As your child nears college, go do something you love. Paint, teach, work with kids.....something that makes you feel good but pays nothing. Make enough to cover your living expenses, and let the colleges provide financial assistance. The lower you can drive that family contribution the better.
As your youngest ends their junior year in college, back to work you go. You are effectively ahead of the dopes who never went anywhere, lived in an second rate town, packed peanut butter and jelly while you were at Starbucks, and used a 529 plan to put all their "savings". That "savings" went to cover Freshman year? They now have loans for the rest they didn't save....you owe nothing. Under my plan, you lived well AND have paid pennies on the dollar for your child's education.
The rules of the game are unfair to everyone. Why not use those rules to your advantage? Winners turn risk into opportunity; losers follow the rules. Don't be a loser!
As your child nears college, go do something you love. Paint, teach, work with kids.....something that makes you feel good but pays nothing. Make enough to cover your living expenses, and let the colleges provide financial assistance. The lower you can drive that family contribution the better.
As your youngest ends their junior year in college, back to work you go. You are effectively ahead of the dopes who never went anywhere, lived in an second rate town, packed peanut butter and jelly while you were at Starbucks, and used a 529 plan to put all their "savings". That "savings" went to cover Freshman year? They now have loans for the rest they didn't save....you owe nothing. Under my plan, you lived well AND have paid pennies on the dollar for your child's education.
The rules of the game are unfair to everyone. Why not use those rules to your advantage? Winners turn risk into opportunity; losers follow the rules. Don't be a loser!
Hmm... You are spot on except for the last point about don't be a loser. I guess I'm one of those losers. I take the opposite tack -- I pay my $50k per year but I shove it down these administrators throats. Every chance I get. I will even be emailing them your comments. Thank you.
1
Glad I live in Europe - the cost of my daughter's tuition at the University of Zurich was about $750 a semester - and she got an excellent education, with a MA in economics and a great job after graduation. She worked the whole time she studied as the part-time secretary to an assistant professor and paid for her a room in a student dorm and board herself. Instead of having to increase our mortgage, we actually could pay off a huge chunk of it. Our other two children did apprenticeships, and actually earned money while learning. Both also have very good jobs.
Like "socialized" medicine, "socialized" education has a lot going for it.
Like "socialized" medicine, "socialized" education has a lot going for it.
5
I have been told that qualified American students can attend college in certain European countries, including Norway and Germany, for negligible tuition costs, and that courses are offered in the English language. Even though the cost of living could be high, sounds like an option worth investigating.
This needs to be a priority when starting a family. I have a friend who takes an extravagant vacation each summer, but then is perplexed on how to pay for college. If they took a more basic vacation for the last 5 years or more, they would have quite a bit saved for college. It does take planning. I know not everyone is in this specific, flexible situation, but there are a good number of families who need to check their priorities. Our family has one in college now and the next one will go in the fall. We camped this summer! Had a ball and did not spend our retirement nor tuition. Looks like we can get the first one through debt free and that is our goal for our remaining two!
1. Start looking for jobs in Germany.
2. Move there.
3. Done. College is basically free there, as it is in many countries in Europe.
2. Move there.
3. Done. College is basically free there, as it is in many countries in Europe.
1
@Joe Krasean, I don't think it is necessary to live in Germany to send your qualified child to college there sans tuition. At least, that is what I have been told by people who are German.
I know too many kids that returned from UW Stout with a drinking problem and no degree. Not a solution no matter what the cost.
1
Financial aid is not so "unpredictable". Every college is required to have on their webpage a "net price calculator" where you can enter in your financial information (anonymously) and get an estimate of what financial aid you should expect to get.
Private colleges can be cheaper than state colleges. It's worth a look -- takes about 15 minutes if you have last year's tax form and a reasonable internet connection to the college you are looking at.
Ron Lieber, please don't make people more scared about this process than they need to be. Your last 2 paragraphs are a real downer! Between the college webpages and the US federal govt webpage with really good info on every college in the nation there is some really helpful stuff available that wasn't there even 8 years ago. https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/
Private colleges can be cheaper than state colleges. It's worth a look -- takes about 15 minutes if you have last year's tax form and a reasonable internet connection to the college you are looking at.
Ron Lieber, please don't make people more scared about this process than they need to be. Your last 2 paragraphs are a real downer! Between the college webpages and the US federal govt webpage with really good info on every college in the nation there is some really helpful stuff available that wasn't there even 8 years ago. https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/
I was pleased to see my area of the country highlighted. Kevin McKinley has a weekly column in the local Eau Claire newspaper, the Leader-Telegram. It's often very informative and covers a wide range of financial issues. Our daughter is currently a freshman at at state university in Wisconsin. She considered some private schools and was accepted to several good ones in Wisconsin and Minnesota. One offered her a 4-year no-strings huge merit scholarship. It was tempting, very tempting. The scholarship would have brought the cost way down, to close to the public university tuition. In the end she chose the state school because of aspects she liked better. We were happy with either choice, but the state choice will allow us to help her some (not all) in grad school if she chooses to attend because of the somewhat lesser tuition bill.
Children of divorce really have it bad. Non-custodial parents often refuse to contribute to college, but Fafsa requires that both parents' income be counted regardless. That's understandable to prevent fraud, but child support laws need to take into consideration that dropping all obligation to a child at 18 isn't fair in today's world. When a child would financially be better off having one dead parent than one divorced parent, it's time to rethink the system.
3
This is flat out wrong. FAFSA counts the lower wage earning parent only. It's utterly backwards. I know folks who are divorced on paper and cleaning up under FAFSA.
1
This financial advisor's suggestions are ridiculous and risky. First of all, he assumes that parents are homeowners. Many are no and even if they are they don't have equity to use as assets for educational expenses. Second, advising parents to both take out home equity loans and educational loans is risky for the parents. I hate when "financial advisers" give facile, risky advice to make it seem like there is a one size fits all, easy solution. It's insulting. NYT, check your tone and your editing. You are not Glamour magazine. A family should sit down together and openly discuss what each member is willing and able to contribute, and what responsibilities each member will undertake. It should be made like a business decision with contracts, alternative plans and even bonuses. Parents should not bankrupt themselves to put their kids through college and children should prove themselves by actively pursuing excellent grades and actiively participating in designing their own paths to and through college. Communication and shared responsibility are key.
1
Stop thinking of a college as a spa. Send your child in-state if money is a issue. If at all possible, get you child to live in a dorm for year one. The expense is worth the networking. Remember that you have to feed the child somewhere anyway. So, be frugal. You don't need to eat rice and beans (even if you are already a vegetarian) but you don't need a new car when you can get a good used one. Walk where you can, gas isn't free, etc, etc etc.
after my divorce, which destroyed most of what i saved for mydaughter's education, i took out a $500K life insurance policy with her as beneficiary.
hopefully i'll die before the loans come due.
hopefully i'll die before the loans come due.
1
Step one: make these young adults put some skin in the game by bearing some of the expenses.
2
Hey Katie, cut the sarcasm. 20 year old student here, all of my skin is in the game. My parents didn't save for college and I am bearing all of the expenses! I know many students in a similar position.
Dave Ramsey has some wise words. He hears parents say "Well, my child always dreamed of going to this expensive private college far away.." and he says "He always dreamed of driving a Ferrari, too. But your family can not afford that." Go in-state. Start at community college. Work for two years and start at age 20, rather than age 18. Live at home and commute.
Personally, I find these articles mildly insulting. They treat us actual students like small children that need to be hand held through everything. This may be true for some of us, but let me tell you something about me and all of my friends: WE'VE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS. We feel the sting of financial strain on college almost as much as you do. We look at the numbers on the student loan debt we're expected to carry and it scares the daylights out of us. Do you think we WANT $40,000 dollars in student loans? The most I have ever owed anyone is a chocolate bar!
Before you go into debt to pay for college, make sure your student will benefit from college and the country will benefit from paying for their college. Some small percentage of high school graduates are prepared to benefit from a world-class college education and we should invest in those students as a country. Sending kids to college who will spend more time drinking than studying is a waste of many scarce resources, money being the least of all concerns.
1
All these are good ideas. However, why not do what we do here in Australia. The government pays for the tuition etc. plus gives the kids some money to even spend... However, the tuition is not just given, it is a loan that the kid has to pay back after graduating and getting a "REAL" job that pays over 50 k per annum and then the borrower (no longer a kid) pays a percentage tax on what they are earning towards that loan... and that loan is not a loan at some 2 % or 5 % per annum, it is rather indexed to inflation or CPI and at the end of the year the government adds the inflation amount or CPI indexation. So, it is never going to end up to be hundreds of thousands of dollars at 4 or 5 % interest...
2
Save money for your child's future earn 5% interest . . . you lost about 99.9% of Americans right there. I wish I knew a safe way to earn 5% interest, but for most of us, that is not an option.
A lot depends on the kid. My heart breaks at kids I know who were mediocre students, mediocre test takers, not particularly "academic", taking out 25-30K a year for mediocre schools. They will likely be barristas and wonder why. Or the kids who "fall in love", no financial considerations. I know another kid - a go getter from way back - with a plan. She will come out of a good school with the same debt - and will be just fine.
FWIW I have one in college and one off next year. We have saved some but not enough, can continue to invest some but not enough. We told the kids max $25K total debt undergrad, you have $YY and can count on us for $XX. The budget was established well in advance (but not cast in granite).
My one in college is in Europe. First two years at a US accredited school that gave him amazing grants (or he wouldn't have gone). Now refocusing on a new major at a private European university that has never heard of FAFSA or Stafford and doesn't care. It is STILL so much cheaper than school here in the US.
My one about to go is finding the best schools in her field where she brings something to the party numerically. Fortunately, her numbers are pretty good so there is a lot to pick from. She will pick the best AFTER the Fin Aid letters come...and THEN she can fall in love.
FWIW I have one in college and one off next year. We have saved some but not enough, can continue to invest some but not enough. We told the kids max $25K total debt undergrad, you have $YY and can count on us for $XX. The budget was established well in advance (but not cast in granite).
My one in college is in Europe. First two years at a US accredited school that gave him amazing grants (or he wouldn't have gone). Now refocusing on a new major at a private European university that has never heard of FAFSA or Stafford and doesn't care. It is STILL so much cheaper than school here in the US.
My one about to go is finding the best schools in her field where she brings something to the party numerically. Fortunately, her numbers are pretty good so there is a lot to pick from. She will pick the best AFTER the Fin Aid letters come...and THEN she can fall in love.
2
I have three kids, one off to college next year. We've saved about 1/2 her college costs for 4 yr public state university. I started saving when I was pregnant with her & have since had automatic monthly withdrawals for her college fund.
Behind her are my twins, 8 years old. They will be going to school at the same time...yikes. Due to a few financial hardships, we've been unable to start their college funds. So not a nickel saved there.
Here's my beef, folks. My husband & I have made sacrifices to save. We have no credit card debt, we are current on our mortgage & taxes & have never stiffed anyone. We've worked hard. We both drive cars that are over 20 years old & live frugally.
Our combined yearly income is just above the 125k threshold.
Is it fair that, in addition to paying full price for college for my own 3 kids, I as a taxpayer am expected to shoulder a portion of the responsibility for all those families sending their kids to public colleges for FREE? Couples earning 100k a year are hardly paupers.
And then, an even sorer spot, is loan debt forgiveness for all the people who borrowed for college and never paid it back. Many of these people got multiple degrees on government loans!
Is it any wonder the upper-middle class feels like a bunch of chumps? The great divide among voters in this country is no mystery.
I don't expect any government handouts (& have never received a penny), but don't feel I should be responsible for others' college tuition costs.
Behind her are my twins, 8 years old. They will be going to school at the same time...yikes. Due to a few financial hardships, we've been unable to start their college funds. So not a nickel saved there.
Here's my beef, folks. My husband & I have made sacrifices to save. We have no credit card debt, we are current on our mortgage & taxes & have never stiffed anyone. We've worked hard. We both drive cars that are over 20 years old & live frugally.
Our combined yearly income is just above the 125k threshold.
Is it fair that, in addition to paying full price for college for my own 3 kids, I as a taxpayer am expected to shoulder a portion of the responsibility for all those families sending their kids to public colleges for FREE? Couples earning 100k a year are hardly paupers.
And then, an even sorer spot, is loan debt forgiveness for all the people who borrowed for college and never paid it back. Many of these people got multiple degrees on government loans!
Is it any wonder the upper-middle class feels like a bunch of chumps? The great divide among voters in this country is no mystery.
I don't expect any government handouts (& have never received a penny), but don't feel I should be responsible for others' college tuition costs.
1
Didn't you all hear? Hillary is going to make college tuition at state universities free for everyone. Problem solved!
One more suggestion: plan your kids at least 4 years apart. We paid our oldest kid's tuition before the second one started college. Worked great for us!
When did this responsibility get downloaded onto parents?
And why?
And why?
1
There is no need to pay an arm and a limb for a private college when state colleges are just as good. The only thing they may lack is name recognition. Debt hinders young people and the less you can start life with, the better. College is a place to learn what you like and what you want to specialize in. If, once in college, you find you have a truly special interest in a subject, THEN spring the money for grad school.
My daughter went to a private school. In retrospect, she regrets it and wishes she went to a state school, not from poor performance, but because the cost was too large to justify supposedly superior teaching.
It is better to pay $40,000 and be a big fish in a small pond than pay $200,000 to realize you aren't as smart as you think you are.
My daughter went to a private school. In retrospect, she regrets it and wishes she went to a state school, not from poor performance, but because the cost was too large to justify supposedly superior teaching.
It is better to pay $40,000 and be a big fish in a small pond than pay $200,000 to realize you aren't as smart as you think you are.
I believe that a downside of 529 savings plans is that they are counted as a student asset. When schools put together financial aid/loan packages, different percentages of student's assets and parents' assets are considered to be available for use (students more, parents less). So it may help to keep assets in the parents' names. But check with the financial aid officers at the schools under consideration.
1
But my son and his wife have TRIPLETS. To save that much they have switched to a 15 year mortgage. They can't count on me croaking before the boys hit college and leaving them my house.
Meanwhile in Britain our outrageously high tuition is hard-capped at $12,000 a year, and degrees take three years instead of four. My undergraduates (all just arriving this week!) pay less for a full Oxford education than thousands of Americans pay for just a single year of tuition....
If we can do it, America can too.
If we can do it, America can too.
3
Let's not forget military service as an option especially for young people who are undecided about what occupational career they want to study. Time away from parents and having a responsible military job is a good place to start. In addition, todays GI Bill provides educational benefits of over $50,000 for those that complete their military service with an honorable discharge. It helps pay for tuition, books and provides a monthly living stipend. Not such a bad deal for a few years of military service.
"How to Pay for College With Less Stress" reads the headline.
Given a choice, I'd rather pay with less money.
Given a choice, I'd rather pay with less money.
3
The US Higher Ed system is totally broken and will take years to fix. In the mean time, I am sending both my children to study in Europe with much lower fees and much simpler application procedures. There is no need to submit FAFSA as there is no need for financial aide. Your bank accounts do no have to be emptied before any financial aid is given.
1
I am not promoting this in any way, but I found the book "How to pay wholesale for college" by Andy Lockwood a huge eye-opener. I am a CPA and pretty savvy about finances, during college, as part of a work-study program, I also worked for two years in my former high school helping students fill out FAFSA's, yet, there were things he listed in the book that I had no idea about such as:
1. Saving money in the 529 plan is a bad idea because they count towards parents assets.
2. Grandparents saving in 529 for a grandkid is even worse as it's counter as student's asset and is penalized at a much higher rate.
3. Most of the elite colleges nowadays cover 100% of the financial need, and many times, the CSS profile is actually more advantageous than FAFSA. I ran calculator at Princeton, we are OK financially, with decent assets so no federal/state aid to be expected, and for most colleges, we also do not get any need-based aid from college, yet, with Princeton, we would actually receive 7.5K, so each college takes different things into account, Princeton's CSS profile is pretty extensive and designed to help parents, it takes into account such items as medical costs not covered by insurance, and tuition and after school expenses paid for other children.
3. The key to merit aid is having your kid apply to the college that is below his credentials where he/she is viewed as a star.
1. Saving money in the 529 plan is a bad idea because they count towards parents assets.
2. Grandparents saving in 529 for a grandkid is even worse as it's counter as student's asset and is penalized at a much higher rate.
3. Most of the elite colleges nowadays cover 100% of the financial need, and many times, the CSS profile is actually more advantageous than FAFSA. I ran calculator at Princeton, we are OK financially, with decent assets so no federal/state aid to be expected, and for most colleges, we also do not get any need-based aid from college, yet, with Princeton, we would actually receive 7.5K, so each college takes different things into account, Princeton's CSS profile is pretty extensive and designed to help parents, it takes into account such items as medical costs not covered by insurance, and tuition and after school expenses paid for other children.
3. The key to merit aid is having your kid apply to the college that is below his credentials where he/she is viewed as a star.
1
Thank you for telling the truth. So tired of articles that promote 529 plans for college.
There are also a few state schools that offer full scholarships at certain GPA and SAT scores to out of state students, one such example is U of Alabama which at 1400 for critical reading and math on the old or 1450 for the same sections on the new SAT offers full scholarships to out of state students. My kid has 94 average at a very good public suburban school, but he is not one of those kids who somehow magically happen to fit athletics, music, volunteer work, and gamut of other activities while maintain stellar grades, honestly, I don't know how it's possible, so his class ran despite a pretty high average, is in the top third because there are kids who take honors and AP which allows for more weight assigned to the grades. We are looking at state schools as a primary target, but we are also targeting a few private schools that offer generous merit scholarships. Now, for the article itself. If it were written about a student going for an accounting degree at Wisconsin vs. getting it at I don't know, U Penn for example, I would say, not a huge deal, but compare it to RISD and Pratt when it's like next to impossible to get a job in the field without connections and plum internships?
This is good advice. No one should expect it to be easy.
But - if you'd also like to go to a great engineering school, look at PURDUE.
Pres. Mitch Daniels ( hope he runs for the WH in 2020) has frozen tuition for the past five years - while attracting more teaching talent - !!!
But - if you'd also like to go to a great engineering school, look at PURDUE.
Pres. Mitch Daniels ( hope he runs for the WH in 2020) has frozen tuition for the past five years - while attracting more teaching talent - !!!
Don't ever borrow for room and board
The average cost is $12-16k per year
Consider a commuter school
The average cost is $12-16k per year
Consider a commuter school
Take a look at Germany, which, IMHO, does a lot better job with this subject.
Not everyone goes to college. There is less of a stigma about not going to college.
There are competitive exams to determine whether you go, and where you go. Once you get in, it is very low cost, essentially free compared to USA.
College in Germany is a lot more about learning, and a lot less about having a 4 year paid vacation.
Not everyone goes to college. There is less of a stigma about not going to college.
There are competitive exams to determine whether you go, and where you go. Once you get in, it is very low cost, essentially free compared to USA.
College in Germany is a lot more about learning, and a lot less about having a 4 year paid vacation.
I am going to give some basic advice from a successful academic at a major university and medical school- --do not borrow (or borrow the min)- no one cares if you transferred from a community college. Do not encourage taking out loans--you are setting the bar for a life time of borrowing. ------your student should WORK--20 hours a week is doable --spending money on private schools at 50-70K is a waste of money--NO OTHER COUNTRY DOES THIS--go to the UK where a private school is still less expensive if you want a "name" degree -----most (but not all) employers DO NOT CARE where you did your undergrad and if you are pursuing a GRAD degree--save your money for grad school ------DO NOT MORTGAGE YOUR HOME OR RETIREMENT FUNDS for college--this is the kool-aid being propagated in the US. Many students thrive in state schools (read david v goliath) --Please excuse the casual writing as I am sending this off in disgust of how parents (and students) have been duped into this system
1
Excellent advice! Thank you.
Things in America are expensive and of good reliability and exceptional quality. Very good. Education is of excellent caliber. It is way better than degree mills in other parts of the world, whose paper certificates are proof of how stupid people waste precious time to earn degrees. Good to have a system where students profit from university and build brain power and help the less fortunate.
The borrow against home equity scheme only makes sense if your deduction is high enough to cover the interest payment along with the piddly earnings from CDs. If your income level is that high, you can probably pay more out of current income.
3
If your income level is that high, there's a good chance that Alternative Minimum Tax will wipe out the deduction.
We failed to save ahead for three college students, two in-state undergrad, one parent masters within about 7 years.
So we refinanced mortgage with 5 year fixed super low rate and rolled all other debt into it. That saved enough to pay for most of the tuition. The kids worked summers to pay for their living expenses, the parent was able to offset business income with a job related degree.
Fortunately, interest rates dropped before the 5 year fixed rate was set to adjust up and we locked in a new 30 year fixed.
Total student debt was a few thousand, quickly extinguished.
In-state tuition is key.
So we refinanced mortgage with 5 year fixed super low rate and rolled all other debt into it. That saved enough to pay for most of the tuition. The kids worked summers to pay for their living expenses, the parent was able to offset business income with a job related degree.
Fortunately, interest rates dropped before the 5 year fixed rate was set to adjust up and we locked in a new 30 year fixed.
Total student debt was a few thousand, quickly extinguished.
In-state tuition is key.
11
So now you have a new 30 year mortgage, which you'll probably be paying into your 80's. I hope your children are grateful.
16
@Gigi, a 30 year mortgage isn't necessarily a problem, as long as the carrying costs are within your means to pay (and your retirement planning has to account for that). It's a fixed expense that you can plan for. Seems smarter than carrying student loans at 8% interest!!
Plus, if you are currently living in a house meant for a family of 5, you could decide to sell that larger home down the road and scale back by moving to a smaller home.
Plus, if you are currently living in a house meant for a family of 5, you could decide to sell that larger home down the road and scale back by moving to a smaller home.
The mortgage will be paid off when they sell the house and move into a condo that has no extra bedrooms for any out-of-work offspring.
2
Merit scholarships have all but vanished. It is unrealistic to think that the current system can persist much longer. Very few people could follow the recommendations here, and most who could don't have to.
Radical restructuring of the whole educational system is needed. Right now there is no value received for the money spent at any level k-16.
The first step is to only educate those who have the talent and the will to benefit from the education. Ration education based on ability to perform, not parental ability to pay. Vanity plates on a car are silly, vanity tags
Radical restructuring of the whole educational system is needed. Right now there is no value received for the money spent at any level k-16.
The first step is to only educate those who have the talent and the will to benefit from the education. Ration education based on ability to perform, not parental ability to pay. Vanity plates on a car are silly, vanity tags
18
I found that buying zero-coupon municipal bonds was an excellent way to get a predictable, tax-free source of funds to cover college costs. No worries about stock market fluctuations. Start accumulating them when your kid is born and you'll be set.
9
Okay but isn't the rate of return on municipal bonds really low? Like below the rate of inflation?
Don't forget about service in exchange for funding. The National Health Service Corps scholarship program funds one year of school for each year of service to a medically under-served community upon graduation. Their loan repayment program works in a similar manner, but does not fund up front. It is a terrific way to get a great education which can immediately be put to use where it is needed most.
9
How about we change tactics, and talk about today's kids who are middle-of-the-road students and who don't have exceptional athletic/artistic abilities? (Unlike the population of Lake Wobegon, these kids are not above average.). We expect that these kids will find meaningful employment over the course of their lives, and that they will be fully-contributing members of society.
Except - most schools are not anxious to throw money at kids who are average - let's be real. Most of the press we read suggests that average students will need college degrees to advance in society. What is the answer?
We do not have a solution for our kids who don't qualify for those fabulous in-state systems that reject many in-state applicants. We need one.
Except - most schools are not anxious to throw money at kids who are average - let's be real. Most of the press we read suggests that average students will need college degrees to advance in society. What is the answer?
We do not have a solution for our kids who don't qualify for those fabulous in-state systems that reject many in-state applicants. We need one.
23
This article has some ridiculous suggestions. Parents should save what they can afford and students should also contribute (via part-time jobs) so they have "skin in the game." Parents are risking their home and retirement when they borrow from the equity in their house. If a four-year institution is not affordable then I agree with the other comments that community college is a great start. I am saving for my four children to attend college but will not be able to pay the full cost. They will have to belly up to the bar and provide some contribution just like I did when I attended college.
27
But Tim, it is so much more expensive to go to college today, and there are very few jobs that a student can find that pay as much as $10 per hours. Realistically, it's a different world, and we have to acknowledge that.
Wish I could "recommend" Tim's comment multiple times. Perfect.
I agree that state universities and community college are often the best choice, but not always. What about kids with specialized interests? I'm currently working with a highly talented student who's trying to get into a music conservatory, to pursue a high-level career in music. Virtually everyone in elite American orchestras came from one of about a dozen music conservatories, and connections count when there are so many incredibly talented musicians. She could go to a Cal State - but then her chances of success in an already rough field are way diminished. The right answer is not always the cheapest one.
14
The "business model" by which we deliver educational services is simply too costly and too inefficient for our country to afford. We need to provide higher education to the vast majority of our high school graduates yet neither their parents nor society as a whole can afford to spend the $50,000 or more per year that our current educational model costs. At least half of that $50,000/year is spent simply supporting young people while they live away from home. Dormitories or apartments, food, phones and internet, travel, etc. then we have the incredible infrastructure costs of colleges and universities - the hallowed "halls of ivy".
We must find a way to deliver quality education to young people living at home via the web. Enlist Hollywood, television production specialists, the finest lecturers to produce basic classes. Construct seminars and study groups meeting online to provide more personal educational services. End the practice of turning lecture halls over to unskilled TA's.
Yes students will miss fraternity parties, football games, and Saturday night drunks. Yes the entire college experience will change.
But our country will then be able to afford the higher education young people need.
The old business model cannot be afforded. It's time for change.
We must find a way to deliver quality education to young people living at home via the web. Enlist Hollywood, television production specialists, the finest lecturers to produce basic classes. Construct seminars and study groups meeting online to provide more personal educational services. End the practice of turning lecture halls over to unskilled TA's.
Yes students will miss fraternity parties, football games, and Saturday night drunks. Yes the entire college experience will change.
But our country will then be able to afford the higher education young people need.
The old business model cannot be afforded. It's time for change.
17
I spent my college years at a school without football or fraternities/sororities studying non-stop. So do a lot of students. Your stereotype of "college life" goes back to 1920's movies and what you see on ESPN. The Duke students camping out before games are, I assure you, sleeping next to their textbooks.
As for online education, it's a bit of a con. Science without lab work? I don't think so.
As for online education, it's a bit of a con. Science without lab work? I don't think so.
Much to my dismay, my college freshman refused to even apply to a four year school last year. She was adamant she wanted to go to our local, excellent community college first. She said she wanted to graduate without debt, and that she didn't feel she was mature enough to go away to school. Doesn't thinking about your maturity level qualify you as mature? I resigned myself to her decision, and with what we have saved up till now, it looks like she can, indeed, graduate 4-5 years from now, debt-free. Once in a while our kids know best.
36
Another strategy is to transfer to a 4 year college after 2 years at a community college. Her degree will be from the 4 year school and very few will ever look back to see whether she did all 4 years there.
20
This is simply not true. Her resume will make it clear that she completed two years of coursework at a non-rigorous open enrollment community college. That will be judged along with everything else. HR departments are all over the quality of the degree.
That's precisely what Chris (above) is saying.
Dear Mr. Lieber: This piece has me all fired up -- and that's a good thing!
A few general points in response to several comments:
1) Community College: While I agree whole-heartedly with idea, it may not be the right fit for every student (even though EVERY student can use it for gen eds, even in technical degrees). My husband teaches at a local community college where the average faculty age is 67 (he is 39). Motivation and encouragement are big problems students cite in dealing with entrenched faculty who have no publishing requirements, no curricular oversight, and file a union grievance when they're told to teach four classes a semester. For a highly motivated student with a laser focus (e.g. knocking out gen eds before a transfer), community college can be very cost-effective. If a student is a bit more wayward, however, it can be a boring and demoralizing environment. A clear goal is critical.
RISD/Pratt: The example isn't ideal because art schools are fiercely competitive and very specialized. However, I don't know why everyone needs to harp on this. The point remains, Ms. McKinley can get a solid base before transferring or seek out extra opportunity to set her up well for an MFA from RISD or Pratt a few years later.
Home Equity: Shouldn't this be off the table a la 2008 and what is the game plan for parents who need to resort to this vis-à-vis retirement? Delaying retirement doesn't help new grads find employment.
A few general points in response to several comments:
1) Community College: While I agree whole-heartedly with idea, it may not be the right fit for every student (even though EVERY student can use it for gen eds, even in technical degrees). My husband teaches at a local community college where the average faculty age is 67 (he is 39). Motivation and encouragement are big problems students cite in dealing with entrenched faculty who have no publishing requirements, no curricular oversight, and file a union grievance when they're told to teach four classes a semester. For a highly motivated student with a laser focus (e.g. knocking out gen eds before a transfer), community college can be very cost-effective. If a student is a bit more wayward, however, it can be a boring and demoralizing environment. A clear goal is critical.
RISD/Pratt: The example isn't ideal because art schools are fiercely competitive and very specialized. However, I don't know why everyone needs to harp on this. The point remains, Ms. McKinley can get a solid base before transferring or seek out extra opportunity to set her up well for an MFA from RISD or Pratt a few years later.
Home Equity: Shouldn't this be off the table a la 2008 and what is the game plan for parents who need to resort to this vis-à-vis retirement? Delaying retirement doesn't help new grads find employment.
11
Please do not think that all community colleges are run like your husband's employer. There are some quite good ones, and most of the faculty, like me, enjoy teaching. I don't know the average age of the faculty at my institution, but I would guess it's much less than 67.
You'll find many of the same issues at many state colleges and universities, where faculty members often have no interest in teaching freshman and sophomore courses. I would argue that having experienced faculty members for the first two years of college might be better experience than having graduate students teaching you during those first two years, and those faculty members at community colleges will come at a fraction of the price.
You'll find many of the same issues at many state colleges and universities, where faculty members often have no interest in teaching freshman and sophomore courses. I would argue that having experienced faculty members for the first two years of college might be better experience than having graduate students teaching you during those first two years, and those faculty members at community colleges will come at a fraction of the price.
11
How do you know she will be set up for a fiercely competitive place in a MFA program at a top art school with what she is able to put together after four years at U. Wisconsin-Stout? When, for example, has this ever happened?
1
How many of you are PT adjuncts or year-to-year contract FT? Those exploitative employment situations are much more the rule at Community Colleges than at even the most regressive state university. If the college doesn't value your child's education enough to pay a living wage to the instructors, walk away, fast.
We need a national movement designed to tackle this problem. There should be no reason that any high school student who wants to get a college diploma should be prevented from doing so by $.
But there is an option that isn't often discussed, one which I took. I attended a public university part-time while working full-time. I paid for my classes out of my income every semester. Sure, it took a while, much longer than four years, but I was practically debt-free when I graduated and went to an Ivy league school for a Ph.D. Plus I got a great college education while gaining excellent work experience.
It wouldn't work for everyone, but I think we need to talk about this more until we have a national movement to tackle the real issue, of course.
But there is an option that isn't often discussed, one which I took. I attended a public university part-time while working full-time. I paid for my classes out of my income every semester. Sure, it took a while, much longer than four years, but I was practically debt-free when I graduated and went to an Ivy league school for a Ph.D. Plus I got a great college education while gaining excellent work experience.
It wouldn't work for everyone, but I think we need to talk about this more until we have a national movement to tackle the real issue, of course.
16
When my kids reach college age, I'll still be paying-off the costs for their daycare; and, my own student loans...
17
How about no more gov't subsidization for private schools and the online for profits. Then, do away with guaranteed student loans and apply those funds towards tuition for every state university and community college. Private institutions could spend down their endowments. State and community colleges would be essentially tuition free. The market place would assist the ivies and other privates in controlling costs.
3
Thank goodness my parents were poor because the government paid all my tuition at a state school I graduated from without any debt!! I didn't get a "college-level" job and pay after that, but I suppose it served its purpose: provide me with college-level education. But colleges promise nothing besides the chance to get a diploma. Thankfully, I only took 4yrs to graduate and didn't fail badly and lose the financial aid. But college degrees are no longer a ticket to a "good" career anymore. The atmosphere is super competitive and if your resume isn't stacked with internships and projects, there is no way students will get any college-level jobs anymore. All the jobs are very specific now and if you don't study the right major and don't live in the right market and don't know anyone, job offers simply wouldn't be handed out. If public state schools tuition becomes free, I hope states can find other resources to pay millions for the football coaches and deans and livable wages to the janitors.
8
An important distinction between direct and indirect expenses needs to be made in this discussion which accounts for at least half of all borrowing. Ask a student with a large amount of debt to find out how much of what they borrowed was for tuition and fees (a direct expense) and how much was for indirect expenses and in most cases you will be amazed to find that tuition is only one half or less of the full cost of attendance. The other part includes room and board, transportation, and other personal expenses. The problem today is that students are allowed to borrow for indirect expenses even when these expenses have nothing to do with their enrollment. Think of a working adult going to graduate school online, at night or on weekends. Sure, they have outside personal expenses, but are these in any way related to their enrollment? Limit borrowing to direct expenses for any school that is online, night or weekends and you will signifantly reduce the over borrowing problem. Free tuition is one thing, but free room and board is another. This is not what we have in mind when we talk about free tuition, but this is where student debt comes from.
6
This is a simple minded article, particularly in the NE. You need to save more than 25 percent of college costs to consider college choices. I am not defending the current system, however, if it stays as it is now, 25% just won't cut it. PS: I have a Senior in HS now going through the process.
10
For someone of moderate success in life, with no financial aid on offer, it can costs $250K to send a child to university (in the U.S.) Elsewhere in the West, the cost is a fraction -- a sliver -- of that amount. Simply put, our university expense policy is a filthy mess, a racket perpetrated on the U.S. public, and it breeds resentment and anger. This, from a mild mannered man who is deeply cushioned in "The Establishment."
13
There are still many options that don't cost $250K. In-state tuition rates are lower than that, and many states are now offering in-state rates for students from neighboring states/regions.
Or maybe it's time to explore going to school in other countries? Canada? Australia? the UK?
Or maybe it's time to explore going to school in other countries? Canada? Australia? the UK?
This article should emphasize more on the tuition may be free for incomes under $125,000k. This is not a free ticket out of savings, but should question some of the complains who say they can't save because of ____. A family that makes over $125k a year should be able to save something, it isn't a question of poverty level where it is food on the table vs minimal savings possible.
On the other side, the article only glosses over the fact of multiple children, a small portion of kids who are on track for a private institution. What about parents carrying their own student loan burdens for 10-20 years? This may overlap their childrens lives by 10, and could be $200-1000/mo committed already.
And further, what it means that many schools offer need based aid, which may already mean a free education under the $125k'ish mark, and a small subset up to $200k, etc. Most low income families, the ones that are most worried about savings, are not aware that they may only need to save a smaller portion of their kids income based on income alone.
On the other side, the article only glosses over the fact of multiple children, a small portion of kids who are on track for a private institution. What about parents carrying their own student loan burdens for 10-20 years? This may overlap their childrens lives by 10, and could be $200-1000/mo committed already.
And further, what it means that many schools offer need based aid, which may already mean a free education under the $125k'ish mark, and a small subset up to $200k, etc. Most low income families, the ones that are most worried about savings, are not aware that they may only need to save a smaller portion of their kids income based on income alone.
4
I went back to work 7 months after my son was born (this included a 6 month unpaid maternity leave which I saved up for while I was pregnant). As soon as I went back to work, I started saving money each month from my paycheck for his college education. $200 per month was diverted to a custodial account for my son. Every time the account exceeded $5000, my husband would transfer $5000 to a custodial account at Fidelity to put it into a mutual fund which turned out to be a good yielding mutual fund (very well managed). When my son turned 18, the custodial money became his. One time, small amounts were donated by his grandparents to custodial accounts. There was not enough money for a private college. There was enough money for any state public university. However, we did send our son to do his freshman and sophomore years at a Community College. He used that time to complete general ed requirements. He also to explored and decided on a major. He was also working while living at home and putting that money in his college account. He transferred to UC Davis (a public university) and graduated from there. He was working his first year at UC Davis (but not his last year) which covered his rent, food, books. He still has money left in his college account. College is not free. It is a privilege to be able to go. Student loans are bad. Students need to be practical, aware of the costs, and help contribute by working part time during college. And students: study, don't party!
27
Reading all the comments here and what I see is really a mixed bag of experiences, but debt-free college can be done. We have three kids in college right now--next year a fourth (we had 4 kids in 5 years) and so far the first three are going through good private colleges debt free (the eldest transferred and has had to take on about 7K in loans to finish), and God willing, looks like the 4th will also, despite my husband's modest/moderate salary. But our plan started way back, and we looked upon it as a family project, which we were all glad to do (all hands on deck!). Learned to live on one salary when the kids were young, so when I started working part-time a few years ago money was available to pay tuition. Saved $24K in the years before. Kids worked/still work. One student got academic scholarships. All have gotten decent financial aid packages. The fourth wants/is planning to do ROTC. Somehow we are making it work. My advice is choose colleges CAREFULLY--there are a lot of good colleges out there that can offer decent aid or do not expect you to pay a mile-high sticker price.
15
Good for you, good for your kids! It also helps that financial aid increases substantially when you have more than one student in college or grad school. Wishing you all well.
3
O God, he may be good at math but his logic on RSDI and Pratt vs Wisconsin is idiotic. The faculty at RSDI and Pratt are worth WAY more than the money saved by going to Wisconsin. Poor kid.
13
Maybe. But how, precisely, do you quantify this? Does anyone have an answer to this question? Are they, in fact, worth $150,000 to $200,000 more?
10
I think the answer is connections, extracurriculars, internships, etc. Obviously it's impossible to put a dollar sticker on these, but just having a degree doesn't mean much anymore if you don't have the outside of school stuff to back it up (especially in web design). RISD and Pratt are in cities with many more of these opportunities.
5
Poor kid? What a snob! I know plenty of highly successful people who attended public universities, and I have attended both a state school and ivy league university myself. The author was right on - if someone has the drive and ability, they can do well at either a decent public or private school.
9
One option is 2 year community college,which is very affordable in NJ with transfer to the state university upon graduation from community college. Also financial aid may be available at the community colleges.
10
I wish the Hillary Clinton campaign would publicly discuss some of the innovative (and fair) ideas reported in the following recent Times article.
"Can America Fix Its Student Loan Crisis? Just Ask Australia" - nytimes.com - July 10, 2016
Examples -
- Loan payments start off small and gradually increase as income increases - Payment do not exceed 4 % of monthly income.
- Payments are deducted monthly from paycheck, similar to Social Security.
- If income decreases, then required monthly payments automatically drop, with no need for phone calls, or for completing long, time-consuming payment adjustment applications.
"Can America Fix Its Student Loan Crisis? Just Ask Australia" - nytimes.com - July 10, 2016
Examples -
- Loan payments start off small and gradually increase as income increases - Payment do not exceed 4 % of monthly income.
- Payments are deducted monthly from paycheck, similar to Social Security.
- If income decreases, then required monthly payments automatically drop, with no need for phone calls, or for completing long, time-consuming payment adjustment applications.
4
We have this already. It is called income based repayment (IBR) and pay as you earn (PAYE). The problem with these plans however is that they reward irrational enrollment decisions like getting an unnecessary third and fourth Masters degree and encourage borrowing the maximum amounts possible. When your payments are capped as a percent of income you pay the same amount whether you borrow $30,000 or $300,000, all else being equal. The unpaid portion is covered by you and me. The first person pays their loans in full, while the second gets a handout.
Interesting article, but the reality is that there's NO magic formula for paying for a college education these days.
The real problem is that college education is just too expensive for all but the very rich (and sometimes the very poor, if they can get lots of scholarships). And it keeps skyrocketing in both public an private schools.
This is a real issue, but will anyone running for office address it? Don't hold your breath
The real problem is that college education is just too expensive for all but the very rich (and sometimes the very poor, if they can get lots of scholarships). And it keeps skyrocketing in both public an private schools.
This is a real issue, but will anyone running for office address it? Don't hold your breath
17
Bernie Sanders did.
9
He had no plan. He understood student debt not at all.
A college degree isn't what it used to be, so you had better start planning for a graduate degree. While an undergrad degree is not quite a commodity, the economics are a bit like the difference between premium and super-premium ice cream. Sure, it's great to buy the super-premium stuff at $9/pint, but you can get really decent ice cream at half that. And then you'll have more left over for toppings, a waffle cone, and maybe a soda or cup of coffee. Go with the cheaper ice cream, leave room for the fixins, and you end up with a sundae. Delicious.
6
Daughter #1 = Midwest Jesuit university...$200k total for 4 years. $80K from scholarships, $100k from MD529, $20K from her employment. Will graduate in May 2017 with BS in EMS, BAin Psych, Certified paramedic and flight medic and no debt! Daughter#2 freshmen at small liberal arts college in Pa. Retail $200K, ...$100K from 3scholarships, $100k from MD529. She was accepted to MD Publik Honours College and offered her zero monies other than $120K in loans! So any easy to choice to choose the superior private school.
3
Does anyone think paying outlandish costs is a fair deal. This is the antithesis of the american dream.
6
How many European countries provide their citizens free college educations? When will we realize that our politicians are nickel and diming us into penury? When will we collectively say enough is enough, then take back what a century of activism gained only to watch it all be taken away by bought and paid for compliant politicians.
7
I think all of the developed European countries (that is, all of the original EU countries) have free college education -- except for the UK. I don't know what it was before Tony Blair, but Blair raised the tuition, when the UK was adopting American business methods.
They don't just provide free college education for their *citizens.* As the NYT has reported repeatedly, Americans can also study free in Germany.
A German friend told me that he got his degree free, up to PhD. The German government decided to impose a "small" tuition fee of about $1,000. He said they were demonstrating in the streets, and the government abandoned the fee. (The NYT had several stories about this.) My friend said that he couldn't understand why American students didn't do the same thing.
And that is the only way non-wealthy students will get the free college education they deserve -- by organizing and demanding it.
I was glad to see American students finally supporting a candidate who does support free education -- Bernie Sanders, who attended Brooklyn College when it was still free. (And he even pushed Hillary Clinton to some symbolic inadequate proposals.)
Good work, kids. Now go after Hillary.
They don't just provide free college education for their *citizens.* As the NYT has reported repeatedly, Americans can also study free in Germany.
A German friend told me that he got his degree free, up to PhD. The German government decided to impose a "small" tuition fee of about $1,000. He said they were demonstrating in the streets, and the government abandoned the fee. (The NYT had several stories about this.) My friend said that he couldn't understand why American students didn't do the same thing.
And that is the only way non-wealthy students will get the free college education they deserve -- by organizing and demanding it.
I was glad to see American students finally supporting a candidate who does support free education -- Bernie Sanders, who attended Brooklyn College when it was still free. (And he even pushed Hillary Clinton to some symbolic inadequate proposals.)
Good work, kids. Now go after Hillary.
13
The big difference there is that not everyone gets in. They have standardized testing requirements that would disqualify a large percentage of our college bound population. We have a system where virtually anyone can get in somewhere. This unfettered access comes at an expense. You cannot have it both ways.
23
My daughter had a choice between an excellent private university (50 K) and the honors program in our state university system (for free). She was accepted at both and I have the means to pay with some belt tightening. She chose the state system as she found the cost of the private university to be utterly absurd. I used part of the money saved to pay for her trips and study abroad. In addition, she works throughout the school year for spending money.
there's a better way.....
there's a better way.....
21
She would have been offered merit aid from the private college halving that amount, if not reducing it even further. Comparing without full disclosure does not further the discussion.
1
You heard of the Tea Party movement? or the Christian Conservatives, et al? What about an Education First movement that made low-cost/free public, quality education a priority? Instead of outlining a plan for families to live on rice and beans for decade after decade or just forgo an essential, quality, post-secondary education altogether - what about a manifesto for a political movement that would take that determination and energy (and a fraction of the financial resources) and provide it with a collective, political, education first-based focus? Individual solutions for social problems are pretty weak and veer in the direction of misplaced, lame, moral imperatives.
27
We have a movement. It's called socialism.
4
That's a nice thought, but as a taxpayer, I would rather not have John and Mary "find themselves" at my expense. While unemployment for college-educated young adults appears to be under 4%, so that a college degree is helpful, would all that still be the case if college was free? And how about the people who don't go to college? Should they not receive the same monetary considerations for training and tax breaks?
And a solution to staggering student loans is to not give the loans in the first place. Lenders (bless their hearts) could be prevented from loaning a student more than the amount necessary to attend a 2nd tier public cheap university. With a provision like that, I would guess that the cost of college would actually drop as the sellers discovered they no longer had buyers for the degrees they offered.
And a solution to staggering student loans is to not give the loans in the first place. Lenders (bless their hearts) could be prevented from loaning a student more than the amount necessary to attend a 2nd tier public cheap university. With a provision like that, I would guess that the cost of college would actually drop as the sellers discovered they no longer had buyers for the degrees they offered.
11
Well, I want John and Mary to find themselves at my expense.
I went to college to find myself at taxpayer expense, and I want to pay back the next generation.
It's called generational transfer.
I want to live in a world with educated young people growing up around me.
This is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We can afford it.
Some people like football stadiums. Some people like wars. I like universities and libraries.
I went to college to find myself at taxpayer expense, and I want to pay back the next generation.
It's called generational transfer.
I want to live in a world with educated young people growing up around me.
This is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We can afford it.
Some people like football stadiums. Some people like wars. I like universities and libraries.
15
I went to a bottom tier law school a while back and have received over 100 times the cost of my degree. Worth every penny, and then some.
7
I stopped at "a while back". For me too college was nearly free. A while back.
States controlled by republicans have cut college subsidies and made state universities unaffordable to the poor. This currently means most southern states, so that many blacks cannot afford to go to college.
If the democrats manage to win and raise some taxes, this should be alleviated.
If Trump wins, the young will be in for Trump university.
Of course for better options to happen, the poor who often do not vote should vote. But their lack of voting creates the realities we see.
If the democrats manage to win and raise some taxes, this should be alleviated.
If Trump wins, the young will be in for Trump university.
Of course for better options to happen, the poor who often do not vote should vote. But their lack of voting creates the realities we see.
5
California state colleges and universities are no longer inexpensive (almost free) as they were decades ago. We are not a low tax state but the state legislature and various governors have cut the state's support of the state's public universities (two systems, CSU and UC). There has been tremendous tuition inflation at the UC system because the regents want to pay administrators and professors the same salaries as private colleges. So the UCs now accept many out of state and out of country freshmen who pay more than in state students and boost UC budgets. I do not foresee any improvement to this situation in the future.
I am not complaining about my state's taxes. We taxpayers get many public benefits from the taxes we pay. I am complaining about state university regents and administrators. Who selected these people??? There are many problems at campuses and in the university systems that the regents and administrators are not handling well. One CSU paid one million dollars to Sarah Palin to give one speech on its campus. It was a wasteful expense.
I am not complaining about my state's taxes. We taxpayers get many public benefits from the taxes we pay. I am complaining about state university regents and administrators. Who selected these people??? There are many problems at campuses and in the university systems that the regents and administrators are not handling well. One CSU paid one million dollars to Sarah Palin to give one speech on its campus. It was a wasteful expense.
3
As a former associate professor, and current parent of a college freshman, I have watched college costs skyrocket. Why? Huge salaries paid to many more administrators than we were able to get by with in the past. We don't need as many as we have and we should not be paying them as much as we are.
5
Imagine having a spouse who insists on sending child #1 to an Ivy over the in-state university (a good one) where the child can receive free tuition. And the family makes far too much for any grant money from the Ivy. So the choice is free tuition at the solidly good in-state university or paying $68K (the EFC) for the Ivy. Thankfully, truth and reality won the day and child #1 is at the in-state school at the huge expense of family harmony. Not everyone is on the same page about college finances in the same family -- a really tough lesson.
8
Lisa,
Although I'm on board with your choices, I wonder what % of the NYT readership is? The parameters of success for a majority of our educated citizenry are fairly narrow. God forbid someone should pass on the opportunity to attend Harvard. My wife did just that - and her father was mortified.
Although I'm on board with your choices, I wonder what % of the NYT readership is? The parameters of success for a majority of our educated citizenry are fairly narrow. God forbid someone should pass on the opportunity to attend Harvard. My wife did just that - and her father was mortified.
2
If there's another child down the line, then I'm betting a lot of NYT readers' families can understand: two kids in college with several years' of attendance overlapping? Why not go with free tuition at a good in-state school and then go to the grad school you get into with no college debt?
College is too expensive and it will only get worse. The vast majority of students who attend private secondary schools and private colleges come from the top income brackets of society. Middle class students get a few crumbs, though.
5
This is such a complex issue that reading all the comments is very useful. I'm throwing these personal experiences into the mix.
A few days ago I attended a graphic artists exhibit at a local New Jersey community college, organized by the one of the professors. This professor is an award-winning graphic artist who has also taught at Pratt and produced some of the most recognizable logos in corporate America, and also designed the logo for Liz Taylor's AIDS Foundation. His students will have the mentoring and connections from this top-rated teacher--all at a community college. This may be unusual and not every cc will have such teachers. But don't pooh-pooh them.
I also have a relative who didn't have the scores to be accepted at a top university, but chose a state school, did extremely well, and transferred/graduated from NYU. And that's the name on his diploma. Cost his parents lots less.
A few days ago I attended a graphic artists exhibit at a local New Jersey community college, organized by the one of the professors. This professor is an award-winning graphic artist who has also taught at Pratt and produced some of the most recognizable logos in corporate America, and also designed the logo for Liz Taylor's AIDS Foundation. His students will have the mentoring and connections from this top-rated teacher--all at a community college. This may be unusual and not every cc will have such teachers. But don't pooh-pooh them.
I also have a relative who didn't have the scores to be accepted at a top university, but chose a state school, did extremely well, and transferred/graduated from NYU. And that's the name on his diploma. Cost his parents lots less.
17
so, mortgage your house is a funding tip? seriously?
30
I find that suggestion disgraceful, especially proffered from the New York Times. Nowhere in this discussion is, for example, setting up a Roth IRA for leverage in the final two years of college. Only discussed is a 529 which can hurt your child's aid because it is counted as an asset. No where in this discussion is it mentioned that you can pay your children up to $6,000/year (tax deductible) for jobs they do for you well before college age (within reason). The home equity idea is stomach turning. Also missing in this piece? Discussion of what the hell parents who have to resort to these measures are supposed to do now that they're flat broke, in debt, and middle aged. Delay retirement even further? So the grossly overpriced undergraduate degrees continue to be further devalued, pushing more young people into grad school while they wait for jobs they're shut out of to open up when their parents retire at age 80?
10
Saving for college needs to be a concerted family effort which starts at the birth of the child- and by family, I mean Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles, Godparents. Instead of a $50.00 baby shower gift, what about a $50.00 contibution to the 529? Instead of a $25.00 Christmas gift, how about a$10.00 Christmas gift and $15.00 to the 529? If a family were to start with $1000.00 in a 529 at the baby shower, the parents contributed $100.00 per month for 18 years, and four family members contributed $120.00 per year for 18 years, at 6%, the 529 would be worth $13,000+ by the time the kid was ready to go to college.
If the kid then worked summers and added the additional $6000.00 per year for three years, then the account would be worth almost $20,000.00.
If a family member is really well off, instead of writing the kid into the will, it would be better for them to gift the kid's 529 up to $11,000.00 per year, which is tax free. Then things really start to move.....
If the kid then worked summers and added the additional $6000.00 per year for three years, then the account would be worth almost $20,000.00.
If a family member is really well off, instead of writing the kid into the will, it would be better for them to gift the kid's 529 up to $11,000.00 per year, which is tax free. Then things really start to move.....
12
I believe the tax free limit is $14K/yr.
This is beyond stupid. I have 2 children. One is a high school senior, the other a high school freshman. They each have roughly $60k in their college savings accounts. I work part-time due to a chronic illness and am divorced from their father who makes $$. But he is ON the CSS profile of the top schools she wants to apply to- (including UNC-chapel hill)-there is no aid, nada, none. And he's not willing to pay anything for her education. I spoke to the director of fin aid at Penn (my alma mater) and he said we haven't been divorced "long enough." I spoke to the fin aid folks at Davidson because their "net price caluclator" doesn't work for divorced families and they told me the only way to determine her fin aid is for her to apply. So state schools only. And for grandparents--mine have passed away and her living grandparents have nothing to do with her (because they don't agree with her religious practices).
10
Why not apply to Davidson? Small, elite, and wealthy liberal arts colleges are surprisingly generous. My wife and I each make six figures and got some aid for our child at such a school in the northeast (granted we are from high-cost-of-living California). It is worth a shot.
The McKinley plan strikes me as impossible for most. The choice of major and two overpriced east coast schools also seem short sighted. I know not everyone can be an Engineer or Accountant but her choice seems a long shot. Life is very complex for young people these days. The deck is stacked against everyone but the elites and those with connections.
3
You apparently missed the part in both the picture caption and the text where she is also considering an instate public university. BTW, my niece's graphics design minor was a big help in getting an entry level ad agency job.
2
Education in the U.S. has certainly declined. I don't think this is all about money. It seems to me that as a nation, we should focus on literacy and numeracy first and foremost. We need citizens who can think for themselves and learn.
While I agree that it would be good for the country if qualified students could get a higher education without going so heavily into debt, we seem to have fewer and fewer qualified student these days and that is very worrying.
While I agree that it would be good for the country if qualified students could get a higher education without going so heavily into debt, we seem to have fewer and fewer qualified student these days and that is very worrying.
7
Literacy and numeracy? According to a National Research Council study discussed in Science magazine 16 Sep 2016 p. 1209, science "is being driven out of elementary school curricula by excessive pressure for reading and math."
High-stakes testing destroyed everything in the school system besides literacy and numeracy, and it wasn't even real literacy and numeracy -- just what could be tested. "Numeracy" isn't even math. They've destroyed science, art, history, and even undirected recess.
Think for themselves? There's no computer-graded test that can tell you whether students have learned to think for themselves. Unless they refuse to take the test and turn in a blank answer sheet.
High-stakes testing destroyed everything in the school system besides literacy and numeracy, and it wasn't even real literacy and numeracy -- just what could be tested. "Numeracy" isn't even math. They've destroyed science, art, history, and even undirected recess.
Think for themselves? There's no computer-graded test that can tell you whether students have learned to think for themselves. Unless they refuse to take the test and turn in a blank answer sheet.
10
The "think for yourself" parts are graded by humans according to rubrics. Only the multiple choice is computer-graded.
Let's not automatically dismiss community colleges for providing a second-rate education. This nation has had a glut of PhDs and adjunct professors for at least 2 decades, so I'm not worried about the qualifications about the teacher at such schools. You don't need a superstar teacher to learn a subject adequately (though the opportunity to study with one is definitely inspirational). It does concern me that adjunct profs have job insecurities, a substantial workload and lack of access to resources and material and tools which might make a good class even better.
12
It is so hard to live as an adjunct - food stamps, WIC if you are pregnant or have children, traveling to several different colleges a day just to early your rent money. . . Is that what you want your children's instructors to do? Because that's what they do. Choose the school with the least exploitative environment, because the best-intentioned, best-trained adjunct can't do very much under these conditions.
1
Some may agree, some may not...
I am a professor who is helping two sons through college. Single father. Community College can be an inexpensive route to save on lower-level classes before transferring into a state college or university. But the experience can be markedly different depending on the institution. I had a friend who went to a Penn State feeder school and had a great experience. My son went to a CC and couldn't wait to get out of there because the level of teaching was low. Because of the push for CC as a start, supported by the federal government, their enrollment has increased, but at most the faculty have master's degrees at best, at the one by me many with only bachelor's degrees are teaching. Yes, there are exceptions and there are many factors. I've been teaching for quite a while now and can tell you that some students that I have had from CC have been excellently prepared. But others have had a woeful preparation at that level and that is not just because of the student, I asked about what they did in class, what was covered, how it was covered, etc. I am not saying that this is not a valid option, just that one has to research the quality of education- at every level.
I am a professor who is helping two sons through college. Single father. Community College can be an inexpensive route to save on lower-level classes before transferring into a state college or university. But the experience can be markedly different depending on the institution. I had a friend who went to a Penn State feeder school and had a great experience. My son went to a CC and couldn't wait to get out of there because the level of teaching was low. Because of the push for CC as a start, supported by the federal government, their enrollment has increased, but at most the faculty have master's degrees at best, at the one by me many with only bachelor's degrees are teaching. Yes, there are exceptions and there are many factors. I've been teaching for quite a while now and can tell you that some students that I have had from CC have been excellently prepared. But others have had a woeful preparation at that level and that is not just because of the student, I asked about what they did in class, what was covered, how it was covered, etc. I am not saying that this is not a valid option, just that one has to research the quality of education- at every level.
41
The professors at the CC my son attended all had Phds. Not all CCs are equal. Even UCs and CSUs use TAs (grad students) to teach some lower division courses.
2
We saved $30,000 for each of our 2 son's college tuition. Yes, not many vacations, "day" trips to museums with passes from the local library, road trips. Our oldest graduated 3rd in his class from a public school, attended a top NE University, freshman in 2008. My husband laid off then, in his 50's, after 28 years in the company. Unemployed for 4.5 years, until he was hired by a company far away, and had to live away. Equity line...
I don't know what planet the author is from. Our youngest in his second year at a State University. $32,000 this year. In today's world, community college costs $10,000 a year. Stem majors would not cut it as a transfer in junior year. Our oldest the recipient of a NSF award, for his PhD, graduating this year. He would never have been able to get this, without the network connections he made in his first 2 years as an undergrad.
We did "everything right", but were screwed. Bottom line, the cost of a college education, is absolutely ridiculous. Yes both our sons work, saving a minimum of $5000 every summer. Both are A students. Does not matter. With all of the sacrifices, we are still behind the 8 ball financially. Saving for our retirement, and trying to fund a college education.
I don't know what planet the author is from. Our youngest in his second year at a State University. $32,000 this year. In today's world, community college costs $10,000 a year. Stem majors would not cut it as a transfer in junior year. Our oldest the recipient of a NSF award, for his PhD, graduating this year. He would never have been able to get this, without the network connections he made in his first 2 years as an undergrad.
We did "everything right", but were screwed. Bottom line, the cost of a college education, is absolutely ridiculous. Yes both our sons work, saving a minimum of $5000 every summer. Both are A students. Does not matter. With all of the sacrifices, we are still behind the 8 ball financially. Saving for our retirement, and trying to fund a college education.
117
I am so sorry about the hard luck your family faced. Especially when I consider what outstanding university level students your children were. One does not graduate with honors without lots of studying and hard work. Your children are a credit to you and your husband. They are the kind of students who belong at universities. I will pray for better luck for you and your husband in the future.
3
Loans provide the business model of colleges and universities, exploiting students and families while driving up the exorbitant costs of tuition during the past three decades. Taxpayers should get out of the loan business, which would drive down tuition, and students should avoid loans for college. It still is possible to work while taking a class or two each semester at a state university, graduating debt-free in about 6 or 7 years, accumulating a wealth of real-world experiences along the way.
13
This is A formula, but one with limits -- in ALL directions: how much can be put aside (WAY less than the quarter-million it now costs to attend the top schools); how many children it will benefit (1); what schools are attainable with the limited resources it will yield (third tier, mostly), etc. It's not bad, but let's acknowledge those limits.
What are needed are some sensible, attainable changes (speaking as a parent of THREE college-age children):
1. Return to federal student loan offerings of the past: lower interest rates (aren't we theoretically banking on the "collateral" of a better-educated populace?); no interest while in full-time study; 6-9 month forbearances after graduation, etc.
2. Federal tax deductions for education expenses, period. NOT "American Opportunity" and similar, means-tested credits, which fail in most circumstances to take the realistic costs of attendance into account.
3. Federal, Pell-like, grants, like the old days, but in inflation-adjusted amounts: $2,500 just doesn't buy what it used to.
And, finally, my most radical idea:
4. Serious financial incentives both to families, and to colleges themselves, that encourage the latter to limit increases in costs (or, perish the thought, even REDUCE them), and the former to pursue those that do: larger grants and lower interest rates for loans applied there; more direct federal support to institutions that do, etc.
Attack the problem at both ends.
What are needed are some sensible, attainable changes (speaking as a parent of THREE college-age children):
1. Return to federal student loan offerings of the past: lower interest rates (aren't we theoretically banking on the "collateral" of a better-educated populace?); no interest while in full-time study; 6-9 month forbearances after graduation, etc.
2. Federal tax deductions for education expenses, period. NOT "American Opportunity" and similar, means-tested credits, which fail in most circumstances to take the realistic costs of attendance into account.
3. Federal, Pell-like, grants, like the old days, but in inflation-adjusted amounts: $2,500 just doesn't buy what it used to.
And, finally, my most radical idea:
4. Serious financial incentives both to families, and to colleges themselves, that encourage the latter to limit increases in costs (or, perish the thought, even REDUCE them), and the former to pursue those that do: larger grants and lower interest rates for loans applied there; more direct federal support to institutions that do, etc.
Attack the problem at both ends.
36
I'm a bit surprised by the big jump in expected saving that's expected between high school and college. I'm not sure most people can really amp up their savings from $115 to $500 a month that easily.
I'm hoping to save up about half the cost before college starts. Given the high cost of daycare, I figure we'll be able to save quite a bit after the last kid goes to kindergarten while still maintaining our current standard of living. It's much harder to pull back than it is to maintain.
Of course, I stopped worrying about paying for college the year I had one child in infant care and another in preschool. If we could swing that cost with nothing saved up for it, college (at least a state school) should be easy peasy.
I'm hoping to save up about half the cost before college starts. Given the high cost of daycare, I figure we'll be able to save quite a bit after the last kid goes to kindergarten while still maintaining our current standard of living. It's much harder to pull back than it is to maintain.
Of course, I stopped worrying about paying for college the year I had one child in infant care and another in preschool. If we could swing that cost with nothing saved up for it, college (at least a state school) should be easy peasy.
4
Sounds like you've been listening to Dave Ramsey, Mr. Lieber (e.g., rice and beans, don't do the vacation), which is always a good thing in my book.
College choice is a huge influence on the cost of college. There's simply not the ROI on private undergrad tuition that we'd like to think.
Still, I agree that costs are out of control, and I would agree that (much like cars), the student loan industry has contributed to the skyrocketing costs. Universities can basically charge whatever they want because "just take out a loan" has become the mantra of most families, HS counselors, and admissions staff. Student loan debt has been "normalized" and it's crushing people.
As someone who paid for four college degrees through hard work and scholarship, I know that paying as you go IS possible. Avoid loans at all costs.
College choice is a huge influence on the cost of college. There's simply not the ROI on private undergrad tuition that we'd like to think.
Still, I agree that costs are out of control, and I would agree that (much like cars), the student loan industry has contributed to the skyrocketing costs. Universities can basically charge whatever they want because "just take out a loan" has become the mantra of most families, HS counselors, and admissions staff. Student loan debt has been "normalized" and it's crushing people.
As someone who paid for four college degrees through hard work and scholarship, I know that paying as you go IS possible. Avoid loans at all costs.
7
The amount in 529's is considered in college assessment of the potential for scholarship. This seems to count against the parent's income and may be no gain. We found it best to minimize our income, no problem really, and have our assets in rental houses. As Mr. Trump apparently knows, rental property is taxed at a lower rate and even (in theory) depreciates. Our low taxable income made our children more eligable for scholarships. Our assets pay off after they graduate.
1
I have mixed feelings about all of this. On the one hand, I think we should provide cheap college tuition to students who demonstrate real aptitude (as most European and other countries with free tuition require). I feel really bad about people saddled with huge debt. On the other hand, I make tens of thousands less than that 125k cutoff that people talk about, and I still put nearly 900 a month away for my son. I bought a cheap house, and I will drive my Honda into the ground, no cable, make my own coffee, etc. (We also travel, so don't feel like I'm totally depriving us of daily pleasures). I ran into a former student today complaining about her several hundred thousand dollars in debt...then she drove away in her leased Mercedes...apparently, everyone in her family drives them...so her parents chose their Mercedes over saving for their kids' education. So how sorry for them do I feel?
33
I agree. I resent "needs-based financial aid" because I see families around me who have actively generated their "need" status by consuming cars, and stuff.
When a child is born a family has an obligation to use the next18 years to raise a quarter million. The good news is that if you start immediately to invest about $7k each year, you'll have it!
When a child is born a family has an obligation to use the next18 years to raise a quarter million. The good news is that if you start immediately to invest about $7k each year, you'll have it!
6
Wisconsin has the UW Colleges .... Two year liberal arts colleges that transfer into the baccalaureates (not the "community colleges" other states have). They have "guaranteed transfer" into the likes of UW Stout. Price? $2,500 per semester. Graduation rate? UW Marathon County in Wausau has a transfer grad rate of 85%. That's how you can save!
5
Or play football for Bucky the Badger!
1
I hate to burst your design bubble but Wisconsin Stout is not in the same category as Pratt or RISD. It may cost 1/3 less but you get 1/3 of the education. (I am a practicing design professional and have a both a BFA and MFA in design).
The way to do this on the cheap is to take all your general education at city college and then transfer to design school the final two years (taking only studio classes). You will graduate with a degree from the school you want at half the price. I did this in undergrad and saved a fortune. It was grad school that kicked my butt financially.
The way to do this on the cheap is to take all your general education at city college and then transfer to design school the final two years (taking only studio classes). You will graduate with a degree from the school you want at half the price. I did this in undergrad and saved a fortune. It was grad school that kicked my butt financially.
47
That was my thought. I've worked in the publishing industry in New York City.
I know people who went to RISD and Pratt (and taught there), and I know the reputation of those schools.
No offense, but I've never heard of Wisconsin Stout.
The idea that college credits are commodities, and one credit is as good as another, is a fantasy created by financial planners who are desperate to come up with a way to make the numbers come out right.
(BTW, I just did a Google search to see what I could find about the art program at Wisconsin Stout, and it's not encouraging. http://www.wpr.org/uw-stout-moves-controversial-80-year-old-murals They also seem to have a problem with binge drinking and alcohol-related deaths.)
I know people who went to RISD and Pratt (and taught there), and I know the reputation of those schools.
No offense, but I've never heard of Wisconsin Stout.
The idea that college credits are commodities, and one credit is as good as another, is a fantasy created by financial planners who are desperate to come up with a way to make the numbers come out right.
(BTW, I just did a Google search to see what I could find about the art program at Wisconsin Stout, and it's not encouraging. http://www.wpr.org/uw-stout-moves-controversial-80-year-old-murals They also seem to have a problem with binge drinking and alcohol-related deaths.)
13
I absolutely despise party schools. A college education is a privilege. Students should not waste time at college partying or trying to accumulate the most sexual partners. "Animal House" was a funny movie but the reality is that it was fiction.
1
It is amazes me how there's still no thinking outside the box. Or that the "box" is the continental United Stated.
You could go to school in another country and have an amazing experience as well as saving money. Even universities in Canada are a lot cheaper than unis in the States.
Alternatively, go to community college for 2 years and then transfer to the same prestigious university you would have gone to for 4. There is no way I would go to U Wisconsin-Stout (where?!?) instead of RISD. If you're going to go to a no-name uni anyway, save money and go to a no-name community college and transfer and graduate from RISD.
This article is just about getting Americans to buy into a broken system.
You could go to school in another country and have an amazing experience as well as saving money. Even universities in Canada are a lot cheaper than unis in the States.
Alternatively, go to community college for 2 years and then transfer to the same prestigious university you would have gone to for 4. There is no way I would go to U Wisconsin-Stout (where?!?) instead of RISD. If you're going to go to a no-name uni anyway, save money and go to a no-name community college and transfer and graduate from RISD.
This article is just about getting Americans to buy into a broken system.
44
Saving for college education is important, but some common sense rules should be enforced by the parent. Our family's rule; "Never go into debt for an undergraduate degree." There are many good value schools and educational options that don't require breaking the bank. For one, choose a state school within your own state. The concept of paying higher out-of-state-tuition for a state school should be out of the question. Period. No discussion. Second, dig as deep as you can to uncover even the smallest of grants and scholarships. $500 here and there from groups like the local Lion's Club start to add up quickly. Finally, going into debt for the first born not only risks the family finances for years to come, but it may also put the dream of a college education out of reach for younger siblings. And that can have a far more lasting negative impact on the family.
14
The system is definitely broken and listed tuition prices are beyond affordable for the vast majority of families. But until systemic changes in college costs come about, families need to better understand the financial aid process to make the best decision possible for themselves and their children. I would have liked to have seen Mr. McKinley suggest helping students do their best on the SAT/ACT. Although many might have disdain for standardized tests (and I wouldn't blame you), they are still a big piece for how merit money is given out. Using a test score to gauge where your child falls in the top 25% percentile, coupled with researching a school's financial aid giving history, can give you a list of schools with a high likelihood of offering your student merit aid. I would rather see families spend some money on test prep to get higher scores, then take out parent loans either through the government or by pulling equity out of the home.
20
I agree. I have three children - one managed to go to a private college for free by being a national merit scholar. The other one is in school in France. It is much cheaper than here. Germany is free. The oldest went to a private school in the US, they gave him substantial merit aid because his SAT scores were slightly above their averages. If you look around you can find merit money or the kid can study in Germany for free - many courses are in English. I would never borrow money to send my child to college. There are options but you must be willing to think outside the box.
For all of you who insist on the go to community college for two years and then transfer to a four year college, for some majors that just does not work. I will give you two examples that I have degrees in. Some courses of study have very prescribed courses that must be taken in very precise order. They are offered by very few schools. The programs require national accreditation of the program.
One example is Architecture. It starts out with students taking design studio 101, 102 freshman year. Then 201, 202 sophomore year. Followed by 301, 302 junior year. With 401 and 402 senior year. Some school have a 5 year professional bachelors. Others expect you to go for a Masters degree for another two years. You are also expected to take parallel tracts of calculus and structures. Architectural History, Methods and Materials of Constuction. Every single class starting freshman year through graduation is in a vary prescribed order. They are not offered at the local community college. Schools of Architecture must be NCARB accredited. One also can't merely take 15 hours and graduate on time.
The other is engineering. It also has very prescribed courses. You take a specific Math series every semester. You take a specific engineering design or methods class in a series every semester. It starts in freshman year with the very prescribed series of classes.
One example is Architecture. It starts out with students taking design studio 101, 102 freshman year. Then 201, 202 sophomore year. Followed by 301, 302 junior year. With 401 and 402 senior year. Some school have a 5 year professional bachelors. Others expect you to go for a Masters degree for another two years. You are also expected to take parallel tracts of calculus and structures. Architectural History, Methods and Materials of Constuction. Every single class starting freshman year through graduation is in a vary prescribed order. They are not offered at the local community college. Schools of Architecture must be NCARB accredited. One also can't merely take 15 hours and graduate on time.
The other is engineering. It also has very prescribed courses. You take a specific Math series every semester. You take a specific engineering design or methods class in a series every semester. It starts in freshman year with the very prescribed series of classes.
42
A really great college experience often involves a total immersion in the campus. That means that starting at a different campus than your finishing spot, or living at home and commuting to a nearby campus can be a formula for a less satisfying experience.
6
I go to a really special college that has blessed me with a great financial aid package (although I will graduate with about 15K in debt, and my parents and I have all had to scrimp and save a little), which definitely makes me lucky. But it's ridiculous to ask parents to stop taking vacations to pay for their kid's college, or give up their more fun expenses. Parents have their own lives, and when their kid leaves for college is supposed to be when parents get to go live those lives to the fullest, not make even further sacrifices for their kid. Like, you've privileged your child with your love and care. It's not your job to ruin your own quality of life to help them pay for this. Not to mention the truth that one gets more financial aid if one makes less money. Given that truth, taking a second job is one of the worst choices you can make to help your kid with college.
38
In the same vein, what about younger siblings? Is a family supposed to strip their standard of living once their oldest child goes to college? It would be natural to assume that parents would like to provide equivalent experiences for each of their children. The FAFSA/Profile numbers make this impossible.
7
But this savings plan misses the problem. College is over-priced. Students are not paying for an education. At best they are paying for education, faculty research, and administrative excess. At worst they are paying for everything except education.
Then add to that that families who plan, sacrifice, and save pay the full sticker price. They are subsidizing those who get scholarships and financial aid. Regardless of whether other students deserve scholarships and financial aid and regardless of whether the structure creates a better educational environment, one student should not subsidize another.
Both public and private schools receive benefits from the US directly and indirectly. Their assets are not just their assets. WE need more transparency in what they are doing with $30,000 or more tuition and what the student is getting in return.
Then add to that that families who plan, sacrifice, and save pay the full sticker price. They are subsidizing those who get scholarships and financial aid. Regardless of whether other students deserve scholarships and financial aid and regardless of whether the structure creates a better educational environment, one student should not subsidize another.
Both public and private schools receive benefits from the US directly and indirectly. Their assets are not just their assets. WE need more transparency in what they are doing with $30,000 or more tuition and what the student is getting in return.
22
Spot on, totally agree.
2
Very well said.
1
This is ridiculous. A generation ago, tuition was nominal and even free (consider the University of CA system) for most students. At that time, we seemed to recognize that it was in our own best interest to make advanced education affordable and available to all. Today, we've embarked on a campaign to reduce future generations to penury by re-establishing a new indentured servitude (i.e., it's GOOD that kids leave college with $200K in debt and spend the rest of their lives working to pay it off!) Mr. Lieber accepts the unacceptable by boldly parroting Wall Street pap about how it's really the student's (their family's) responsibility to pay for furthering the well-being of the next generation and our society as a whole. But, under Mr. Lieber's proposal, families should gratefully continue to turn over their limited savings to Wall Street to pay for a societal good, since, after all, we know we can trust Wall Street to keep our best interests at heart. OMG.
111
Thank the govt. for increasing aid that the colleges lockstep increase prices with. - why wouldn't they raise when "everyone has to get a good education" and more money is being poured in?
Thank also the govt. for the horrendous bankruptcy bill that makes students accountable for debt even after bankruptcy thus allowing banks to make more loans, colleges to keep prices up, etc. etc.
Pretty sure the NYT reported on all of this...
Thank also the govt. for the horrendous bankruptcy bill that makes students accountable for debt even after bankruptcy thus allowing banks to make more loans, colleges to keep prices up, etc. etc.
Pretty sure the NYT reported on all of this...
2
You've got it. Services that used to be a government responsibility have been privatized into commodities on the free market.
Some economists call it "financialization."
Instead of a university being a non-profit institution paid by tax money, they've been turned into businesses that are expected to earn their own operating expenses, and profit besides.
Students have been turned into profit machines for financial institutions. Banks have sudents with $50,000 in debt who will be paying them back at 6% forever.
Fortunately, the Bernie Sanders movement was in part a rebellion against this system.
Why should you vote for a candidate who wants to perpetuate this system against you?
Some economists call it "financialization."
Instead of a university being a non-profit institution paid by tax money, they've been turned into businesses that are expected to earn their own operating expenses, and profit besides.
Students have been turned into profit machines for financial institutions. Banks have sudents with $50,000 in debt who will be paying them back at 6% forever.
Fortunately, the Bernie Sanders movement was in part a rebellion against this system.
Why should you vote for a candidate who wants to perpetuate this system against you?
3
My three sons attended University up to PhD and it only cost me their living expenses and medical insurance. Both were deductible for my taxes. Easy to do as I resided in Germany and my tax rate was 56%! That might be considered rather high, but then again the benefits to my sons more than compensated for the taxes that I paid.
Ah, the benefits of living and working in a Socialist country. Of course my sons had to pass the high bar in their 13 years of study to make them eligible for the University.
After 5 years in grade school, students were determined eligible for University. My sons continued on this path for another 8 years to their Abitur,
which was equivalent to an Associate Degree in the US.
Students who did not make the grade after 5 years were trained for an occupation another 6 or 7 years, after which they could enter the work force or start of as Apprentices in areas like bookkeeping, office management, purchasing, etc.
There was also the chance for the latter group to enter the University level if their grades improved and the reverse was also possible for those who had qualified for University, but failed to make the grade in the following years.
At the time European Unversities accepted qualified students from other countries provided they had local language skills and cost of living and medical insurance support from their families. Most still do today.
Two of my sons obtained advance degrees in Switzerland, where I never resided nor paid taxes.
Ah, the benefits of living and working in a Socialist country. Of course my sons had to pass the high bar in their 13 years of study to make them eligible for the University.
After 5 years in grade school, students were determined eligible for University. My sons continued on this path for another 8 years to their Abitur,
which was equivalent to an Associate Degree in the US.
Students who did not make the grade after 5 years were trained for an occupation another 6 or 7 years, after which they could enter the work force or start of as Apprentices in areas like bookkeeping, office management, purchasing, etc.
There was also the chance for the latter group to enter the University level if their grades improved and the reverse was also possible for those who had qualified for University, but failed to make the grade in the following years.
At the time European Unversities accepted qualified students from other countries provided they had local language skills and cost of living and medical insurance support from their families. Most still do today.
Two of my sons obtained advance degrees in Switzerland, where I never resided nor paid taxes.
31
In Germany, public school means schools for the public. There, and in other European countries, people do not have to live their lives around education and medical cost concerns.
7
"Easy to do as I resided in Germany and my tax rate was 56%!"
Thanks for pointing out that free isn't "free" - it's a matter of deciding what - for a country - is worth paying for as a communal expense -as important as physical infrastructure.
And Germany does have the alternate path to a career not requiring a university degree; while the US has been narrowly focused on a college education for all, even when it simply isn't sensible or useful to the student.
Thanks for pointing out that free isn't "free" - it's a matter of deciding what - for a country - is worth paying for as a communal expense -as important as physical infrastructure.
And Germany does have the alternate path to a career not requiring a university degree; while the US has been narrowly focused on a college education for all, even when it simply isn't sensible or useful to the student.
10
There are two problems with sending kids to college these days.
1) College is too expensive; including public colleges. But then many things are too expensive today - housing for example.
2) The expectation that all kids deserve the college of their choice. Many here claim to be able to send kids to public schools, but they 'want' to send them to private schools.
Solution to number 1 is to a) eliminate the virtual schools that don't teach jack - Phoenix and others that are private for-profit with no oversight (that would include Trump University). b) hold public universities accountable at the state level for all bonuses, salaries, and tenure rules - hold them accountable to the state and Fed limits (without the intrusion of the public service unions). No more fox watching the hen house.
Solution to number 2 is to grow up! Not all kids deserve or even really want to go to college. Some like the idea of a big party on someone else's (even parents) dollar. 25% of incoming freshmen to state schools cannot even start their freshman year - cannot read/write/and or do math at a college entry level. That is the fault of k-12, not the college. The idea that a kid needs to be passed to the next grade when they clearly are not capable is an outrage! PS because of admitting so many that really should not be in college, that debt the incur is doubly worse as they never graduate.
1) College is too expensive; including public colleges. But then many things are too expensive today - housing for example.
2) The expectation that all kids deserve the college of their choice. Many here claim to be able to send kids to public schools, but they 'want' to send them to private schools.
Solution to number 1 is to a) eliminate the virtual schools that don't teach jack - Phoenix and others that are private for-profit with no oversight (that would include Trump University). b) hold public universities accountable at the state level for all bonuses, salaries, and tenure rules - hold them accountable to the state and Fed limits (without the intrusion of the public service unions). No more fox watching the hen house.
Solution to number 2 is to grow up! Not all kids deserve or even really want to go to college. Some like the idea of a big party on someone else's (even parents) dollar. 25% of incoming freshmen to state schools cannot even start their freshman year - cannot read/write/and or do math at a college entry level. That is the fault of k-12, not the college. The idea that a kid needs to be passed to the next grade when they clearly are not capable is an outrage! PS because of admitting so many that really should not be in college, that debt the incur is doubly worse as they never graduate.
6
To patriotic Americans, I suggest picking a college offering ROTC. They will pick up tuition and book costs as well as a stipend. When you graduate, you become a 2nd Lieutenant and immediately put in a mid managers role. You owe them 6 years of service; should you decide it's time to exit, you'll have corporations chasing you for jobs. There are many great skills you can acquire while you serve. Drone flying, accounting, and logistics ( think Fed Ex) to name a few. They will pay for your Masters degree while you serve ( or later under the GI Bill). BEST OF ALL, NO STUDENT LOANS TO PAY BACK.
19
The trouble is that off and on the newly minted second lieutenants end up in war zones. Sometimes in wars that they and their equally patriotic families believe to be immoral.
2
Considering the fact that college attendance has not fulfilled the expectations and the stated promises that were and are being made--a way to escape minimum wage jobs and to make a difference in your world--it may be the best idea is to look at the examples set by schools like LaSalle Extension University, International Correspondence Schools. The alumni from correspondence schools is impressive, and it could only be more impressive considering the great improvement of the library system in this country. Of course, there wouldn't be the social life of the clubs. So go join a country club.
Surprised you failed to state the obvious. Start at a community college, particularly one that has an agreement with a school you are most interested in and save the first 2 years of tuition then transfer.
Your college degree only has the name of the school you graduated from, not the place you started in.
Your college degree only has the name of the school you graduated from, not the place you started in.
18
My friend's daughter did this and in those 2 community college years also became a NY state resident, so qualifying for in-state tuition the last two years.
Brilliant.
Brilliant.
7
College tuition, the bull in the china shop for the middle clas, especially when you have living under your roof, one of those really smart and talented kids. With two working professionals in a house producing income in the $250,000 range, financial aid is nil. Not generating much sympathy yet but factoring in residence in an urban environment with poor public schools, college savings are diminished by private school tuition costs from prior 12 years. Merit aid can be available for decent schools but non existent from "the elite" schools who tout that they will meet your "funding gaps". Thus everything appears to be based upon upon ability to pay without factoring in other education expenses. The congratulatory acceptance letter from schools listed in the top five rankings give way to stomach churning the following day when the financial office letter arrives to say that your EPC is 100% and "zero aid" merit or otherwise is available. Looking to foundations and other private merit awards or contests usually adds "demonstrated financial need" to the equation. So what do you do with that smart and talented kid who has earned her way into Penn and Columbia and Wellesley and Swarthmore? Paying $100,000 plus tuition per year for college (and high school for siblings) in post tax dollars on a $250,000 income doesn't generate much sympathy but many parents find themselves in this predicament. Thirty year loans may help but bringing down true tuition costs is paramount
45
I'm part of one of those 2 working professional families, nearly $250K income, 3 kids to get through college (2 down, one half saved). And I say...we are not the one's with the problem. People in our position should stop whining and start paying taxes that cover public education for all.
27
Good upper middle class advice. Save, invest, be frugal, etc. But most don't live, and many can't live such well organized lives. Jobs, fortunes and health all change, marriages break up. 5% interest==hard to come by. Until education is truly a national priority, most families will finance education in the current chaotic manner. Graduates will continue to be burdened with immense debt loads. 50 years old and still paying student loans is the reality for many.
Perhaps we should look to other models of financing higher education.
Perhaps we should look to other models of financing higher education.
14
Or maybe study hard so you get good grades and become attractive to colleges so you get scholarships, other financial support and the best work study jobs.
Pick a college that puts academics first and can devote money, faculty time to students education---not fancy student unions, plush recreation facilities that go beyond what is needed for physical fitness and are probably under used, intra-mural instead of inter-mural sports [or play in conferences that are for school spirit not "fame"] low administration to student and faculty ratios--most seem to provide VP and SVP for every "imagined" need.
Pick a college that puts academics first and can devote money, faculty time to students education---not fancy student unions, plush recreation facilities that go beyond what is needed for physical fitness and are probably under used, intra-mural instead of inter-mural sports [or play in conferences that are for school spirit not "fame"] low administration to student and faculty ratios--most seem to provide VP and SVP for every "imagined" need.
1
The real question is how much longer can prices continue to spiral upwards for the education that is increasingly needed to get a chance at entry level job leading to a career making decent money?
If nothing is done, it won't be much more than another decade where it'd be more prudent to just invest your kids' college savings in an index fund that gives them access to the funds at their retirement since the ROI will be better than the additional income a career level job would bring.
A world where it's better to invest in established firms instead of the human capital of the next generation is going to look and feel a lot more like an aristocracy with an inflexible class system than the relatively egalitarian mid to late 20th century.
If nothing is done, it won't be much more than another decade where it'd be more prudent to just invest your kids' college savings in an index fund that gives them access to the funds at their retirement since the ROI will be better than the additional income a career level job would bring.
A world where it's better to invest in established firms instead of the human capital of the next generation is going to look and feel a lot more like an aristocracy with an inflexible class system than the relatively egalitarian mid to late 20th century.
72
Loans aid and abet the rising costs. We can't continue to ignore the relationship between the student loan industry and university tuition
5
Life has a way of taking turns in life. 14 years ago I had an on the job injury due to being a 9/11 and Anthrax first responder. Not located in NCY so not part of the compensation fund. Living on workemens compensation and injured is a big loss in earnings power with no way to save or earn. On the Financial aide form it said our EOC number was O336. That means the family can contribute $336 per year. The University of Florida responded that my daughter could take out maximum loans herself and then I her disabled parent could take out a $32,000 parent plus student loan per year. The University of Alabama was take out a $34,000 per year Parent plus loan. She was put on the wait list at the University of Georgia with her 3.9 High School GPA multiple AP courses and Dual Enrollment courses from community courses. She got waitlisted at Baylor. Luckily she got into Ga State and has lived at home has a HOPE scholarship based on her high school grades that pays about 83% ( since AP and Dual Enrolment weights are removed she had an unweighted 3.69 and missed a full amount change). She works at a major bank as many hours as they will give her but the pay is only $12.85 ( she was told this week mgmt is cutting her hours to 20 hrs, unless she quits school and goes full time). GA State has leghthed the nursing program to 5 years from 4 years. Even when she only needs 10 or 11 hrs for her program she has to take extra classes for Fulltime status for her scholarship of Pell.
10
For a while now I've been wondering when it became parents' responsibility to pay for their children's college. Aren't the children adults?
Obviously, if a parent wants to give a gift and pay for college, they can always do so, but this current notion that parents are obligated to support their adult children is perplexing to me. The government is wrong to perpetuate it through the FAFSA and the like.
Obviously, if a parent wants to give a gift and pay for college, they can always do so, but this current notion that parents are obligated to support their adult children is perplexing to me. The government is wrong to perpetuate it through the FAFSA and the like.
10
See the "Expected" part of the Expected "Family" Contribution that falls out of the Fafsa. It's been several decades now.
5
I've always thought that the idea that kids pay their own way through their final education is a relatively new concept. Up until the 19th century it was family who covered the cost of apprenticeships, purchased commissions, and the like. Even farmers just handed over the farm to the eldest son, or split it up among several. With the industrial revolution providing jobs for girls, there were many brothers who received educations because the entire family (including sisters) chipped in. Once the eldest made his way through, he helped the remaining boys. Up through the early 20th century, college was for wealthy families and it was the families who paid. The self-made college grad was vanishingly rare.
There was a brief period in the mid-late 20th century where college was affordable and jobs for young workers paid well enough to cover the cost of college. When my father went to college (as a first-generation college student) his summer job covered his entire tuition. We forget how anomalous that actually was.
There was a brief period in the mid-late 20th century where college was affordable and jobs for young workers paid well enough to cover the cost of college. When my father went to college (as a first-generation college student) his summer job covered his entire tuition. We forget how anomalous that actually was.
9
Ron,
I'm well aware of the EFC and how long it's been around. This is exactly my point. I'm claiming it's wrong for it to exist or ever have existed if college age students are indeed "adults."
I'm well aware of the EFC and how long it's been around. This is exactly my point. I'm claiming it's wrong for it to exist or ever have existed if college age students are indeed "adults."
We also take advantage of the American Opportunity Tax Credit (AOTC) which gives us $2,500 per year for 4 years or $10,000 total to pay for college tuition. That's 25% of the cost of 4 years of tuition in our state. Why was this not mentioned in the article? Is it taken as a given?
Yes, I know high income families cannot use the AOTC, but they can use 529 plans which really are for the wealthy.
Yes, I know high income families cannot use the AOTC, but they can use 529 plans which really are for the wealthy.
2
What most "experts" don't tell you is that almost no one pays the full retail price for college. In fact, the discount rate at most non-elite (all but the top 30 or so) private universities is 50%, thanks to high competition for students and generous need and merit based scholarships.
Yes, college is still expensive, but most believe it is more expensive than it is.
Yes, college is still expensive, but most believe it is more expensive than it is.
4
Would love it if the Times did an article providing financial advice to adults returning to college
1
Granted tuitions were much lower when I went to college. But I remember, my parents wanted me to go to a low-priced state college and live at home. I had my sights set on a private school with the added cost of room and board. I drove my parents crazy so my mother did the equivalent of the FAFSA. I got no aid to attend the low-price option, but had all my tuition and most of my room and board taken care of with a combination of scholarships and grants (no loans). I worked an on-campus job to pay the remainder of my expenses and a summer job provided spending money. Out-of-pocket cost to my parents ...nothing!
Money isn't as freely available today as it was then, but I've watched my nieces and nephews attend top colleges for less than the so-called lower cost options because these schools are willing to "discount" so heavily for good students from middle class families. Middle-class families: prepare by saving, but don't accept that you'll be forced to pay every penny yourself.
Money isn't as freely available today as it was then, but I've watched my nieces and nephews attend top colleges for less than the so-called lower cost options because these schools are willing to "discount" so heavily for good students from middle class families. Middle-class families: prepare by saving, but don't accept that you'll be forced to pay every penny yourself.
28
I work in design. I can honestly tell you that a designer from RISD will easily get an interview at the firm where I work. A designer from UW Stout likely will not.
If she wants to stay local after graduation, maybe things look different. However, what will likely happen is that Ellie will want to go elsewhere, which will require she go back to school and get a grad degree to be marketable in NYC, LA, etc. Now if her work at UW is fantastic, she may end up with a free ride at a top design grad school. Happened to me, but it's a long shot. She'll probably have to pay for that grad degree, but since she'll be an dependent adult at that time, she may qualify for pretty good financial aid.
Life is long, these things are complicated.
If she wants to stay local after graduation, maybe things look different. However, what will likely happen is that Ellie will want to go elsewhere, which will require she go back to school and get a grad degree to be marketable in NYC, LA, etc. Now if her work at UW is fantastic, she may end up with a free ride at a top design grad school. Happened to me, but it's a long shot. She'll probably have to pay for that grad degree, but since she'll be an dependent adult at that time, she may qualify for pretty good financial aid.
Life is long, these things are complicated.
119
I teach at one of those universities that "offer programs at less than a third the retail cost." Yes, you could, perhaps, get the education at my university that you'd get at a RISD or equivalent in other fields, but not very likely at all. This whole belief that third-tier public schools are as good as top tier schools like RISD, the Ivies, etc, is very often just plain wrong. Yes, we have some great faculty doing very cool research and we have some very good students, but mostly we don't have very good students since our admissions standards are low, and fellow students are very important to a student's quality of education. Plus, schools on the low end often just don't have the resources and that leads to higher student - faculty ratios, etc. etc etc.
102
Ha! Speaking as a graduate from RISD, I am 3 years out of school and can't get an interview. I am also about $120,000 in debt, which keeps compounding every month I can't get an interview. How are many like me supposed to dig out of such a hole?
1
Great analysis Michael. A additional option to consider is finding out if RISD or Pratt allow transfer credits for academic courses. Ellie could do some of her Gen Eds at state in the summer and help keep costs down.
If you are a millionaire or your child has a trust fund with more than 100,000 in their name then disregard :
Take the guesswork out of this decision! Go to the net price calculator of the college of your choice. Plug in the numbers
I did so for Ms McKinley her yearly cost for RISD (assuming she is from a family of four making $125,000/year ) would be 20K.
Parents please estimate your FAFSA, there is a nifty calculator for this too! Hundreds of private colleges will scholarship anything over your EFC. I used acronyms for a reason - educate yourself and your children.
Articles like this one only contribute to the sense of failure for a generation of future students. No wonder the 'go on' rate is so low...
Take the guesswork out of this decision! Go to the net price calculator of the college of your choice. Plug in the numbers
I did so for Ms McKinley her yearly cost for RISD (assuming she is from a family of four making $125,000/year ) would be 20K.
Parents please estimate your FAFSA, there is a nifty calculator for this too! Hundreds of private colleges will scholarship anything over your EFC. I used acronyms for a reason - educate yourself and your children.
Articles like this one only contribute to the sense of failure for a generation of future students. No wonder the 'go on' rate is so low...
17
Agreed about the utility of the net price calculators to get a basic sense of what the bottom-line cost like be, but I don't think you know enough about the McKinleys to put these numbers forth.
6
In all seriousness, even if a teenager has at least $100,000 to their name in some kind of trust fund or other inheritance, I would think twice about spending most or all of it on college. When that person is in their forties or fifties--especially if female--they may really need that money.
5
Excellent private schools can wind up being less expensive than state schools because of generous scholarships. We found my daughter's through a "Colleges That Change Lives" school fair. Yes, as the author says, she had only a few weeks to make her choice in the spring after receiving all her offers. But we were quite happy when the choices included full and 85% tuition scholarships at several schools. For our family, the key was evaluating her chances for scholarship at each school she was considering before she applied. This can easily be done with each school's online cost predictor. Many of my friends let their children apply to "reach" schools. Nether got in, but were awarded no scholarships. The parents then had to borrow a lot to finance that choice.
4
One of the issues that does not get enough press is the Expected Family Contribution or EFC. The reality is that middle class families receive an evaluation of their ability to pay that is unaffordable at any income level. Colleges shrug their shoulders and say this is the government calculation. The government makes no apologies and the buck gets passed to families. This formula needs to be addressed. I am a certified college counselor and when I took my course work on college funding and financial aid formulas, I learned that this is a casino that I would never enter if I did not have a choice.
My college bound children are applying to schools that have more reasonable price points and targeting merit aid. They will attend the school with the best merit package, where we do not have to tangle with the FAFSA/CSS/Profile every year.
My college bound children are applying to schools that have more reasonable price points and targeting merit aid. They will attend the school with the best merit package, where we do not have to tangle with the FAFSA/CSS/Profile every year.
67
Much of this is good, common sense advice but I take issue with the shakedown of the grandparents. Unless they are wealthy, it means even in their retirement years they should forgo their bucket lists to continue funding college educations. So no, assuming they helped send their kids to college, they've paid their dues and it's time for them to take that cruise and have a premius steak for dinner.
51
Yes, grandparents are not obligated to help pay for their grandchildren's educations. If cruises and premius steak dinners are more important to them than their grandchildren's education, then they should feel no guilt spending their money in that manner.
For me, I'd rather spend my money helping my grandkids.
For me, I'd rather spend my money helping my grandkids.
4
There is something terribly wrong with the system if grandparents now need to pay for the education of their grandchildren. My husband is currently paying for our college age son's education while also paying for his own graduate school loans from some years ago. Should we now save for the grandchildren's college education as well? Is this the new bar the elderly will have to meet to be considered good grandparents? Enough is enough!
6
Wisconsin has a very affordable state school system. UW Madison is more expensive and should be. Prestige and excellent extracurricular activities help the Madison school get better candidates and more restrictive admissions. If you can't get into the big state school you still have very good options. As the article says, if the kid is smart enough to get into the restrictive prestigious schools in the north east then they will do just fine no matter where they graduate from.
7
I chose UW-Madison over a fancy school out East (so did my spouse) and it was a dandy decision for both of us. The honors program provided a great education, and we both had no problem being accepted to great grad programs.
If you are careful about the state university you choose, it can be a great financial decision.
If you are careful about the state university you choose, it can be a great financial decision.
4
Guidance counselors in high school need to get involved in this conversation.
They need to sit down with parents and students and tell them what it will cost to go to school A, B, and C. And ask hard questions. Can you afford this (both parents and student). They need to provide strategies for meeting this goal.
They need to sit down with parents and students and tell them what it will cost to go to school A, B, and C. And ask hard questions. Can you afford this (both parents and student). They need to provide strategies for meeting this goal.
6
I wish there enough of them with the time and knowledge (of this insanely complex aid/financing system, above and beyond the fine gradations of difference between schools educationally) to accomplish this. But the stories of merit/need-based aid ignorance I hear out of private school counseling offices -- let alone publics where the counselors often have a three-digit number of students to track, if there are counselors at all) would blow your mind. Which is not to disparage the counselors, who are doing their best and can't possibly track everything for everyone...
10
With a national guidance counselor to student ratio of 1:491, there just isn't enough time to do that. If only there were.... And if only guidance counselors were paid and supported commensurate to their value.... The fact is that most are not well-compensated and terribly overworked.
1
The discussion starts and ends with "Why do colleges cost this much?" I went to a top ten university in the 1990s and adjusted for inflation and in today's dollars, tuition was $29,000 a year. But tuition there today is $50k a year. Tuition is rising at a much higher cost than inflation and that's why many middle class families can't afford college--they don't get financial aid but they don't have enough to pay for college without serious debt. The question should be why college presidents make millions of dollars, why there is an armada of administrators, and why they're constantly building lavish new buildings.
60
I call my plan firing on all cylinders which means we save a bit every month and every year and even if we have to cut back we still save in the category. So maybe not the whole 401k amount but at least 6% and never miss a year.
We do the same for college savings.
I used to laugh at my mom. She is the most disciplined person I know. She had envelopes she kept in a secret place and every pay day she put money in all of these different envelopes. Sometimes just $5 but she was consistent and whenever anyone needed anything she would crack open an envelope and voila. I hope my children will be just like her.
If you rationalize away the savings and promise yourself you will catchup next year I am hear to tell you that most don't. They mean well but life happens. Be consistent. Something every year....
We do the same for college savings.
I used to laugh at my mom. She is the most disciplined person I know. She had envelopes she kept in a secret place and every pay day she put money in all of these different envelopes. Sometimes just $5 but she was consistent and whenever anyone needed anything she would crack open an envelope and voila. I hope my children will be just like her.
If you rationalize away the savings and promise yourself you will catchup next year I am hear to tell you that most don't. They mean well but life happens. Be consistent. Something every year....
9
If this helps to alleviate stress, Corporations pay-off the student loans when they hire "headhunted" employees. They comb the schools, looking for talent. Also, this isn't known very much, but when I completed all 50 Grades of School and received The Post Doctorate, I did so well that I received a cash prize that more than covered the financial aid loans accumulated through the years. I, of course, became a Professor. I suppose it is the University System's "Grooming Future Professors" Forever Program. And, last, I thought I'd mention that Madonna was so talented that she left University of Michigan and went straight to Manhattan. Maybe even "the cheaper option" is not necessary. Seems like more professional counseling should be sought after, to help Ellie make her decision. This extra professional advice might alleviate a "whole lot of stress"!!
1
I'm a firm believer in community colleges to save money. Our local CC has a specific 2-year curriculum for various majors; at the end, you can transfer to a state university as a junior in your chosen field.
That being said, my kids didn't go that route, but I 'won' 6 hours of community college tuition in a silent auction, and my daughter used them to take a few general ed CC classes while she was in high school. Of course, we didn't know it then, but it turned out she was able to graduate from her 4-year a semester early. Having gotten those few classes out of the way helped put her over the top.
That being said, my kids didn't go that route, but I 'won' 6 hours of community college tuition in a silent auction, and my daughter used them to take a few general ed CC classes while she was in high school. Of course, we didn't know it then, but it turned out she was able to graduate from her 4-year a semester early. Having gotten those few classes out of the way helped put her over the top.
9
Follow the European model for education. Give exams to see who is most likely to benefit from the next educational level.
At the end of 8th grade, give a series of tests to see which half will go to academic high school. Give these students the help to proceed. The lower half can take the tests again next year and reapply
. At the end of the 11th. grade, give a series of exams on the seven areas of study to see who will go on to the final two year period of advance study in three areas. The other students will be given a chance to study technology, agriculture, teacher training, service work and vocational areas.
Now the society will have about 20% of the student population in advanced studies. Pick three areas of concentration. It could be chemistry, biology and
German. After two additional years of study on these three areas, the students will take a series of exams for university admissions to their local university only. The university will announce that they will accept the top 100 chemistry students. These students will get to attend university in chemistry for a very low fee.
Problems:
1. ONLY the top 100 go to university. If you are # 101, go home and study to retake the exams again next year. Good luck next year.
2. I "did not find myself before college:. Drop out of the school and go home to study a new university area.
Advantages: 1. college is three years. 2. Society pays for college,= NO STUDENT LOANS!
At the end of 8th grade, give a series of tests to see which half will go to academic high school. Give these students the help to proceed. The lower half can take the tests again next year and reapply
. At the end of the 11th. grade, give a series of exams on the seven areas of study to see who will go on to the final two year period of advance study in three areas. The other students will be given a chance to study technology, agriculture, teacher training, service work and vocational areas.
Now the society will have about 20% of the student population in advanced studies. Pick three areas of concentration. It could be chemistry, biology and
German. After two additional years of study on these three areas, the students will take a series of exams for university admissions to their local university only. The university will announce that they will accept the top 100 chemistry students. These students will get to attend university in chemistry for a very low fee.
Problems:
1. ONLY the top 100 go to university. If you are # 101, go home and study to retake the exams again next year. Good luck next year.
2. I "did not find myself before college:. Drop out of the school and go home to study a new university area.
Advantages: 1. college is three years. 2. Society pays for college,= NO STUDENT LOANS!
5
3. Students not in the top 20% can make a solid living from skills learned in trade schools, as opposed to the US, where we pretend that all young people are equally talented in all fields.
4
Not everybody who doesn't go to college will learn a "trade." Think about it, was it ever that way? Everybody who doesn't go to college, isn't going to become a plumber or an electrician. Those who spend their working lives as check-out clerks still need to earn enough money to feed, clothe and house themselves. Not in luxury, but somewhere, in some minimal level of cleanliness, safety and dare I say, comfort (uh, sleep on a mattress rather than the floor, maybe).
Before someone chimes in that check-out clerks will be obsolete replaced by robots if they dare demand a living wage, frankly even if they don't. I agree, maybe this will happen. But these now obsolete people are not going to suddenly become engineers or carpenters and they're not going away either.
Before someone chimes in that check-out clerks will be obsolete replaced by robots if they dare demand a living wage, frankly even if they don't. I agree, maybe this will happen. But these now obsolete people are not going to suddenly become engineers or carpenters and they're not going away either.
3
Alas the fallacy of thinking she can "study the same things at the University of Wisconsin-Stout" she can find at "the Rhode Island School of Design or the Pratt Institute in Brooklyn." The "same things," studied at an off-branch of a state university, would not be the "same things," or likely to open "the same" doors, as those "same things" stamped with the brand "Harvard." However much "talent and moxie" an individual student may have, connections are connections, and brand recognition is what it is. That's what the hefty price tags of the elite schools are about, and what they are selling is not mere illusion—and of course rare exceptions prove the rule—even if there are no guarantees.
90
Fair point. And the obvious followup: If the McKinleys would not qualify for any need-based aid and merit aid is not guaranteed, how much more should they pay for RISD or Pratt than Stout? Anyone is welcome to try to answer this one!
2
A lot. The connections, the location, the opportunities for internships, the meaning of the name of a rigorous arts and design college on a future grad school or job application - these are well worth paying for. Moxie plus as the comment says, an off-brand state college in an area lacking opportunities doesn't get you as far as McKinley thinks. That he doesn't take any of this into account pretty much disqualifies him as an expert in college finances.
11
$150,000 more? With two more kids coming down the pike?
3
Excellent article for parents who are actually serious about their kids but are bewildered about where to start and reasonable interim markers to a lofty goal. One extra suggestion: besides scanning credit card bill for spending that could be savings, parents should ask: do I need that new car? At parents weekend at expensive schools my daughters attended -- where half the student body was on aid -- expensive new cars predominated. Many of those cars were effectively financed with student loans the kids will have to pay,
2
The wise, sensible approach to college is to acquire the first two years of college credits at your local community college on instate tuition, then transfer to your state university, again on instate tuition. Work parttime at a job which fits your schedule. Do not spend $ on Starbucks lattes, expensive athletic shoes, and artificial fingernails. It works. Do it.
13
Plus live at home and drive a hand-me-down car from your parents.
My kids did choose to go to in-state public colleges. They/their parents would have incurred significant debt at private or out of state public institutions. I am so glad that they took the less expensive option; they had great college experiences socially and academically and they are employed alongside people their age who went to more expensive schools. It was easier to give them financial assistance with their first car/first apartment. I would encourage any family struggling with college financing to strongly consider the in-state or community college route.
18
This backfired. I now have more stress than I did before reading this.
32
This article contains some dangerous advice for people when it recommended to borrow under a home equity line years in advance to secure future liquidity. Most of these lines are based on floating interest rates which are expected to rise over time. It then recommended that you invest this money in CDs, which currently pay a fraction of what you will pay on the home equity debt. So you pay 4% and receive 1% to lock in liquidity??? How many of the people who do this will have the discipline to not use those funds for something else in the meantime? The basics here should be like other things in life, live within your means. Save as much as you can through 529 accounts. If you are in a low tax bracket your child will qualify for financial aid. If your student is gifted they will be offered economic incentives to go to schools that may be ranked just below their reach or target schools. If money is very tight, go to community college for two years and transfer to a state school.
47
First of all, the average annual cost of tuition and fees is $9,410 for state residents at public colleges, room and board, another 10,000 so assume about 20k per year. That is list price and who ever bought anything else that was the manufacturer's suggested price? The real issue is to do your own homework and educate yourself about college costs. As to Hillary's idiotic proposal, the states are not going to go along with it and second, roughly 35% of all students actually graduate college. Why should the taxpayer pay for the other 65%? Community college access makes sense. See if the student can do college level work at much less cost before making the investment for a 4 year school. As to us, the kids are gone and now it is the grandchildren. We went all the way through graduate schools with no debt. The kids worked their way through school and recent nieces and nephews got through school with no debt with a little hard work, a little help from the parents and academic scholarships. As to the grandkids, we put money in a 529 the minute they were born and it looks like it will pay for their first two years of college.
10
I think the biggest problem is that community colleges spend most of their time teaching remedial coursework. It is not college level work with the exception of a few. They are not cheap in my state, nor are the state colleges - in fact, if you have a tea party governor, chances are your state college, which will not have as much merit aid as a well-endowed public one, will not be a bargain. 27K to go to Ohio State! And our local community college is a Pell Grant mine.
3
I suggest contacting the more expensive school and ask them to do the comparison for you. Assuming Ellie got into Rhode Island, someone on staff should be able to prepare a conversation to have with Ellie and parents, as to why Rhode Island is "so much better than....". Also, they would discuss funding opportunities. If this helps, Brown University is near Rhode Island and I think that students can take classes on both campuses. ...... Just in case: Ellie changes her mind to Art Museums and Modeling, perhaps, Parsons School of Art and Design in Manhattan, instead.
6
The author of this plan for poor Ellie suggests that just because a college offers the same major, it's the same level of teaching, experience from talent level of peer group through to which college's name will help you get a job later. All of this matters enormously. I feel terrible for the children of parents who will now smugly believe that there is no difference between a dedicated art and design college in a city like New York with an obscure state college in Wisconsin
20
@ Maureen
The level of teaching is not much better at a top Ivy or design schools. It is the luck of the draw, as some of the worst teachers I had were at the top design school I attended and the best were at a community college, because those teachers actually worked in those fields during the day and taught at night.
I went to college so I could find employment in a field I had a talent for AND had researched to make sure there were plenty of good-paying jobs, so I thought of education in much more pragmatic terms, which has served me well.
The level of teaching is not much better at a top Ivy or design schools. It is the luck of the draw, as some of the worst teachers I had were at the top design school I attended and the best were at a community college, because those teachers actually worked in those fields during the day and taught at night.
I went to college so I could find employment in a field I had a talent for AND had researched to make sure there were plenty of good-paying jobs, so I thought of education in much more pragmatic terms, which has served me well.
2
One of the biggest problems in the college selection process is that there is too little recognition of the fact that few except the affluent pay full price for tuition at the jewels of undergraduate education, the small liberal arts colleges.
Each will have substantial full prices, but virtually all have very generous financial aid programs that greatly reduce the actual amount that a lower or middle income student actually pays for his/her education.
The value from being in a class of fifty instead of a class of eight hundred is enormous, particularly when it comes time to request professor recommendations for graduate or professional schools.
The six page white paper "The College Payoff Illusion" offers indepth insight
on why too many college graduates end up folding sweaters at Crate & Barrel instead of solving major problems for society:
http://web1.calbaptist.edu/dskubik/college.htm
You might find it to be of interest that the average federally insured student loan indebtedness of last year's Dartmouth College graduates is less than
$12,000.
That tiny college debt enables graduates to consider the Peace Corps, Teach For America or to go into fields that are vastly rewarding but offer small compensation. like the arts.
Each will have substantial full prices, but virtually all have very generous financial aid programs that greatly reduce the actual amount that a lower or middle income student actually pays for his/her education.
The value from being in a class of fifty instead of a class of eight hundred is enormous, particularly when it comes time to request professor recommendations for graduate or professional schools.
The six page white paper "The College Payoff Illusion" offers indepth insight
on why too many college graduates end up folding sweaters at Crate & Barrel instead of solving major problems for society:
http://web1.calbaptist.edu/dskubik/college.htm
You might find it to be of interest that the average federally insured student loan indebtedness of last year's Dartmouth College graduates is less than
$12,000.
That tiny college debt enables graduates to consider the Peace Corps, Teach For America or to go into fields that are vastly rewarding but offer small compensation. like the arts.
11
I would add that it is absolutely essential to obtain a recent ( not necessarily new ) copy of Fiske's Guide to Colleges. For those who view undergraduate education as the foundation of a successful career and life, this publication is the only college reference book to use.
The Fiske Guide is developed by sending teams to college campuses to interview actual students there. Students will be most specific on shortcomings of a college, and every college has them. The Fiske focuses on the campus culture which is absolutely essential for a good college fit. Those students who have bounced from college to college, taking forever to complete their degree or even dropping out generally have not achieved a good fit in campus culture in their initial choice.
While the US News & World Report annual college ranking is ubiquitous, its methodology is invalid, and too many colleges skew admissions to improve their rankings in this virtually worthless measure. If you can avoid even reading it, your college search will be more successful.
The Fiske Guide is developed by sending teams to college campuses to interview actual students there. Students will be most specific on shortcomings of a college, and every college has them. The Fiske focuses on the campus culture which is absolutely essential for a good college fit. Those students who have bounced from college to college, taking forever to complete their degree or even dropping out generally have not achieved a good fit in campus culture in their initial choice.
While the US News & World Report annual college ranking is ubiquitous, its methodology is invalid, and too many colleges skew admissions to improve their rankings in this virtually worthless measure. If you can avoid even reading it, your college search will be more successful.
4
Community colleges can certainly be part of the solution. Also many high schools offer college credit courses to seniors, offering the potential to cut out a semester of high priced college. Massive Open Online Courses (MOOCs) have the potential to provide cheap education in at least some courses provided some way to evaluate students is offered -- new tech makes it possible to validate teh identity of a test taker. That would also require the colleges to use MOOCs at prices near their actual cost of delivery and not just at some discount to classroom courses.
2
Depending on the community college this can be extremely of quality education - and don't even go there with suggesting any colleges worth a darn would accept MOOC anything instead. These are unrealistic option.
1
The most important thing to do is to feel a sense of responsibility for your child's education. Don't be like our neighbor, who commented "there's no use trying to save for college...I know I can never save enough." Then she complained about the paucity of financial aid and the cost of college loans. Follow Mr. McKinley's advice. Drive used cars. Don't join country clubs. Save diligently. Worked for us...two kids graduated from fine liberal arts colleges, and then from fine MBA programs, with no debt.
8
"Don't join country clubs"?! Oy.
What advice do you have for the other 98% of working American parents?
What advice do you have for the other 98% of working American parents?
29
I guess they shouldn't ever own a home or save for retirement either, huh?
6
Don't forget community college for the first two years of undergraduate education. Some of the best instruction is at these institutions. Also some states have "Running Start" programs (high school juniors/seniors taking course work at a community college at no tuition cost.
Many community college students transfer to prestigious institutions and go on to post graduate work. In the end it is about value.
Many community college students transfer to prestigious institutions and go on to post graduate work. In the end it is about value.
14
The community college first option only works if there is a quality CC in commuting distance. This is not the case in my state. Also, it is rare that any four year college outside your state will accept even a fraction of the credits, if any at all, and not at all for the better schools within your state college, such as medicine and engineering. CC's are virtually open enrollment. The level of instruction follows that metric very closely, especially given the near 100% reliance on low paid adjuncts. Remember that in many states your four-year prestigious state school costs as much or more than a private school. In Ohio, Ohio State costs 27K for room and board and tuition (thanks to Kasich's defunding). There is just so much missing from this article.
10
@ Maureen
Students should live with their parents until they graduate, which saves at least 50% of the cost of colleges.
As far as community colleges having too many students needing remedial instruction, that makes it even easier to get all A's, which looks great on a transcript.
Students should know which courses transfer to their state university before they sign up for them. And of course no out-of-state college will take those credits, which is why students should plan on transferring to an in-state university.
Students should live with their parents until they graduate, which saves at least 50% of the cost of colleges.
As far as community colleges having too many students needing remedial instruction, that makes it even easier to get all A's, which looks great on a transcript.
Students should know which courses transfer to their state university before they sign up for them. And of course no out-of-state college will take those credits, which is why students should plan on transferring to an in-state university.
2
Did the responsible thing. Started saving from kids' births. One made it to a highest-level elite northeast university, one which touts the high rate of tuition assistance based on income levels. Mine was $60K. Told he cannot qualify for assistance due to the diligence of our savings. I point blank asked, "so you're telling me that if I had filled my house with enormous flat screen tv's, vacationed every year, bought new cars...that would have been incentivized?!" Response was a sheepish shrug. At least I have the satisfaction of having done the right thing and not taking advantage of others, but I don't feel that most are doing the same. Meanwhile, I knew of other parents who purposely didn't work very hard to stay employed during the college years so as to qualify their kids for 'free' tuition, or more accurately, tuition footed by those of us who saved responsibly.
45
It is not the case that people with high incomes who spend all their money instead of saving it are "rewarded." If those big spenders had high incomes, the school would ask for a big check each year. And all but the highest endowment schools will ask you to borrow a significant amount money as part of any "aid" they think you deserve on top of your larger income, unless your child qualifies for a big merit aid package (or perhaps in addition to that package). I don't doubt your recollection of the conversation, but I'd also urge readers not to take that shrug as some kind of gospel.
9
When I read this kind of comment and get to the part about other parents trying to remain unemployed, I know that the rest of it is probably not true either. You read about all this on conservative websites, but the premise is not borne out in reality
7
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but it's impossible to know A) What financial situation you'll be in 5-10-15 years from now and therefore what, if any, aid you'll qualify for (or how good your kid's grades will be for merit aid qualification) B) What the financial aid system will look like then C) Whether your school will meet your need with an "aid" package that is mostly loans. Very few people regret saving (and yes, I realize that the less you earn the harder it is).
4
Maybe if we all went into college with a different mindset, student debt wouldn't be the disaster it is right now. We have a sophomore in college that doesn't think s student loan is even a possibility. We told her that if she could get a full-ride scholarship, she could go away to school. If not, she could stay at home and attend our local university. Being a poor student in high school was not an option, you produce in school or you have no life, her choice. We did invest in ACT prep classes and she took the ACT 7 times, ending with a score that got her 11,500 of 16,500/year in scholarships.
She is required to pay 1/2 of the remaining balance and we pay the rest. She is at a public, in-state university and lives on campus. I am shocked at how many of her peers do not have jobs and take all remaining expenses out in loans. I think we are doing a disservice to our children by not encouraging them to take control of their financial lives early.
Meanwhile, we take nice vacations. Not because we make tons of money but because we live financially responsible lives and require our children to do the same. I refuse to give up my lifestyle that I have worked so hard for so my offspring can go to their "dream" school where tuition costs as much as my house. Actually, that's not true. My daughter is at her dream school because we have taught her that the ultimate dream is getting out debt free!
She is required to pay 1/2 of the remaining balance and we pay the rest. She is at a public, in-state university and lives on campus. I am shocked at how many of her peers do not have jobs and take all remaining expenses out in loans. I think we are doing a disservice to our children by not encouraging them to take control of their financial lives early.
Meanwhile, we take nice vacations. Not because we make tons of money but because we live financially responsible lives and require our children to do the same. I refuse to give up my lifestyle that I have worked so hard for so my offspring can go to their "dream" school where tuition costs as much as my house. Actually, that's not true. My daughter is at her dream school because we have taught her that the ultimate dream is getting out debt free!
15
I think your approach is all wrong, and punishes your child for factors way beyond her control.
There's nothing wrong with debt if planned well and managed responsibly. Show me a business owner who doesn't use a credit line. Mr. McKinley profiled here is a professional financial advisor and seems to know this well.
Let me tell you my story: I'm an immigrant kid whose parents were much like you. I was drilled early to never borrow, live at home, pay for everything in cash, etc. By definition, that keeps aspirations modest--never gamble, never aim for anything beyond your reach.
I got a full scholarship to a great private college, which happened to be in Manhattan. I wanted to live in Manhattan instead of commuting from eastern queens. Of course parents thought that was nuts given the cost, but I fought hard, they came around, and living on my own in this city was one of the most important experiences I've had. Then I went to an ivy grad school, where I received 90% merit aid. I borrowed 40k for living expenses to free me to study instead of worrying about money. The time spent on my work during this time, and the recognition I received at such a high profile school, landed me a much better job than I had before grad school. I consider the 40k an investment that paid out tremendous dividends.
In this country the wealthy know what an "investment" is. Yes, it carries some risk. Consider that before you box your kids into only what is available to them at this moment.
There's nothing wrong with debt if planned well and managed responsibly. Show me a business owner who doesn't use a credit line. Mr. McKinley profiled here is a professional financial advisor and seems to know this well.
Let me tell you my story: I'm an immigrant kid whose parents were much like you. I was drilled early to never borrow, live at home, pay for everything in cash, etc. By definition, that keeps aspirations modest--never gamble, never aim for anything beyond your reach.
I got a full scholarship to a great private college, which happened to be in Manhattan. I wanted to live in Manhattan instead of commuting from eastern queens. Of course parents thought that was nuts given the cost, but I fought hard, they came around, and living on my own in this city was one of the most important experiences I've had. Then I went to an ivy grad school, where I received 90% merit aid. I borrowed 40k for living expenses to free me to study instead of worrying about money. The time spent on my work during this time, and the recognition I received at such a high profile school, landed me a much better job than I had before grad school. I consider the 40k an investment that paid out tremendous dividends.
In this country the wealthy know what an "investment" is. Yes, it carries some risk. Consider that before you box your kids into only what is available to them at this moment.
51
Michael,
I think we are talking two entirely different situations. You worked hard and were able to get merit based scholarships. My daughter wants a to be an OT, one of our state schools has a program that is ranked #37. Would I be upset if my adult daughter needed to take out a loan to get through graduate school? The answer is no. Would I be upset if my daughter took $70k in loans to get through undergrad where earning potential was limited? Yes, I would. I don't feel I am limiting my children in trying to limit their debt through college.
I think we are talking two entirely different situations. You worked hard and were able to get merit based scholarships. My daughter wants a to be an OT, one of our state schools has a program that is ranked #37. Would I be upset if my adult daughter needed to take out a loan to get through graduate school? The answer is no. Would I be upset if my daughter took $70k in loans to get through undergrad where earning potential was limited? Yes, I would. I don't feel I am limiting my children in trying to limit their debt through college.
3
@ Michael
Getting good grades are not "factors way beyond her control".
And I think your approach was all wrong. That you "fought hard" to get money out of your parents so you could have the "important experience" of living in Manhattan, one of the most expensive cities in the world, means your parents sacrificed some of their financial future to fund an 18 year olds fantasy.
Sharper than a serpent's tooth indeed!
Getting good grades are not "factors way beyond her control".
And I think your approach was all wrong. That you "fought hard" to get money out of your parents so you could have the "important experience" of living in Manhattan, one of the most expensive cities in the world, means your parents sacrificed some of their financial future to fund an 18 year olds fantasy.
Sharper than a serpent's tooth indeed!
1
Live beyond your means, have several children, accrue massive debts and your chid will get subsidized financial aid paid for all the idiots that scrimped and saved for their child's education. Otherwise send your kid to Europe where the tuition is free or relatively dirt cheap
14
The financial aid formulas depend way more on income than most people think. Here's a column I wrote that gets at some misconceptions: http://nyti.ms/1NNhGqV
23
Don't forget to have one spouse over indulge in alcohol, pick up a couple of DUI's that come with a minimum 180 day incarceration that will bring joint income way down to positively affect Expected Parental Contributions. This initial comment has a Loud ring of truth to it
1
Make sure to buy an expensive house you cannot afford, default on the loans, say that you were 'tricked' and did not know what you were signing, then demand the mortgage is 'forgiven', i.e. paid for by the rest of us.
1
I remain grateful for and loyal to my undergraduate school, UCLA, though I came close to flunking out, and never had a really close relationship with an of my professors. But I survived, ended up with a PhD from Columbia , and spent nearly 50 years in higher education--professor, dean, and provost at good institutions. What I learned: good students can do well anywhere, but the small liberal arts college remains the absolute best place to get both a great education and the step ahead you need for a great career. I am so impressed by the love and care their professors give these students, and have also learned, as an administrator, that the money spent for education in the small private colleges is both less than feared and well worth it. Usually, in fact, the cost is only about half the sticker price, thanks to scholarships and other opportunities (e.g. Internships arranged by devoted alumni). American colleges and universities remain the best in the world--subject for a longer essay-- but the private liberal arts college remains the gold standard for American undergraduate education. No question.
57
One would do well to capture every word of Ms. Woods posting.
This is the absolute gospel in college selection.
This is the absolute gospel in college selection.
6
My concern is that "the same course of study" merely means the same course titles, not the same level of excellence of education. Don't we also care about the quality of the education? Are we really just looking for the cheapest degree?
42
The Wisconsin college system is an excellent one. A lot of Minnesotans attend my grandson’s Wisconsin University. Besides, it’s easy enough to find out if one program is truly better than another, which the writer of this article seems capable of determining.
2
This is essentially our plan - we saved, we hit up grandma, we put the house in hock, the kids got jobs, canned everything extra even though we hadn't been spending that much on vacations and eating out to start with, and we took on government debt.
If this is less stress, I don't want to know what more stress feels like.
If this is less stress, I don't want to know what more stress feels like.
152
Students did not used to borrow huge sums of money for useless degrees at tony private colleges. That was for rich kids. Even today, most state universities are less than $10K a year and many much less with financial aid.
And no one should borrow any money for a degree in a field that will not lead to a good-paying job, unless their parents want them living in their basement in debt forever.
And no one should borrow any money for a degree in a field that will not lead to a good-paying job, unless their parents want them living in their basement in debt forever.
5
Today's "good paying job" is tomorrow's unemployment. A college or University education is meant to be the opportunity to: gain independence, ask questions, learn to study, gain values, participate in discourse, learn to present, and learn to write. Don't go to college to learn one single, narrow expertise or job.
12
Most state colleges do not cost under 10K anymore - look at the real cost, which includes thousands in hidden fees and, if you can't commute, room and board. Tuition alone at a good Ohio public college is around 12K -- total for a year depending on major goes to 27K. And there is less aid available than at a good private school, which makes it a wash, or even cheaper to go private and out of state.
11
Where will we get our engineers and medical professionals?
3
What a shockingly out of touch article. All parents have to do is save up $40,000 before their kids get to college. Oh, and the genius of that article, Kevin McKinley, breezily assumes that these parents have only one child. So for two kids, it means saving enough to accumulate $80,000 over twenty years. Then they spend another $80,000 over four years. And then, well, and then they're in trouble.
Let's go back to the beginning. American families are in serious financial trouble. Median salaries haven't risen for decades, health insurance will rise by double-digits this year, and house prices are headed back up. But, no problem- just save a quarter of tuition over several years, spend out-of-pocket a quarter of four years, and...
Bernie Sanders realized that we can, and should make tuition free for all public universities, as it is for Germans, French, Danish, Irish, and other developed countries.
Americans don't have to live like this. And we certainly don't need frivolous advice from financial advisors that assumes that we have all the money we need.
Let's go back to the beginning. American families are in serious financial trouble. Median salaries haven't risen for decades, health insurance will rise by double-digits this year, and house prices are headed back up. But, no problem- just save a quarter of tuition over several years, spend out-of-pocket a quarter of four years, and...
Bernie Sanders realized that we can, and should make tuition free for all public universities, as it is for Germans, French, Danish, Irish, and other developed countries.
Americans don't have to live like this. And we certainly don't need frivolous advice from financial advisors that assumes that we have all the money we need.
142
You can save for college!
You can have lower cost meals, used cars, fewer clothes, use the public library instead of buying everything new.
You can live in a smaller house. Each child does not have to have a private bedroom and private bathroom. My boys had to share a bedroom and the one bathroom down the hall. They did not have to undergo years of psychotherapy for their deprived childhood.
Five children= a musician, an accountant, a lawyer, another international lawyer with MBA and speaks four languages, a restoration contractor with BA, French and Spanish plus part of a MBA. All attended public colleges in the state in which we lived at the time. All had to work full time during the summer, all worked part-time during the school year, three took gap years. None took a car to college. We had vacations to relatives, national and state parks. We did NOT go to Disneyland or Europe until all were older and we could pay cash from savings. Remember savings?
My grandfather told me years ago, if you fail to plan then you plan to fail.
Consider advance placement classes in high school, followed my community college where the child can live at home. Then the last two years can be at a public college/university or a private college where the total cost is equal to or less than the public school. If you do well academically, there are many, many opportunities for graduate school. You can even go to medical school free. Join the army and serve seven years after graduation.
You can have lower cost meals, used cars, fewer clothes, use the public library instead of buying everything new.
You can live in a smaller house. Each child does not have to have a private bedroom and private bathroom. My boys had to share a bedroom and the one bathroom down the hall. They did not have to undergo years of psychotherapy for their deprived childhood.
Five children= a musician, an accountant, a lawyer, another international lawyer with MBA and speaks four languages, a restoration contractor with BA, French and Spanish plus part of a MBA. All attended public colleges in the state in which we lived at the time. All had to work full time during the summer, all worked part-time during the school year, three took gap years. None took a car to college. We had vacations to relatives, national and state parks. We did NOT go to Disneyland or Europe until all were older and we could pay cash from savings. Remember savings?
My grandfather told me years ago, if you fail to plan then you plan to fail.
Consider advance placement classes in high school, followed my community college where the child can live at home. Then the last two years can be at a public college/university or a private college where the total cost is equal to or less than the public school. If you do well academically, there are many, many opportunities for graduate school. You can even go to medical school free. Join the army and serve seven years after graduation.
3
Tuition is those countries is NOT free. People pay for it through very high taxes that Americans (hopefully) would never stand for.
Why let the government manage your money? Take the money you could be taxed and save & invest it yourself.
Why let the government manage your money? Take the money you could be taxed and save & invest it yourself.
1
What Bernie failed to mention prominently is that in almost all countries with tuition free public universities there are some pretty serious entrance exams that limit who gets in. This is usually balanced with some well planned alternative educational options that prepare people for alternative careers if they apply themselves reasonably well. I personally think the German/French/Danish model very attractive, but getting from our present system to something resembling that model would require quite an upheaval.
3
Thank you for this article. Finally, a reasonable approach to a reasonable college cost: "For parents sending a child to a college right now that costs $100,000 total." Too many articles exaggerate the cost of college by assuming all students matriculate at those $70,000 per year schools and fly first class to/from home several times a year.
I have a son in college now and a daughter who already graduated and is in the work force. Tuition in our state flagship is about $10,000 a year and room, board and books makes up the rest of the cost. The savings from not feeding our son at home are spent feeding him at college, so the extra cost from high school is actually less than $100,000 total.
As noted, our kids worked in the summers and during the school years for some of the money. We can temporarily reduce 401(k) contributions and charitable donations to come up with most of the extra money needed for college. Sure, everybody cannot do this, but it is another possible source of money.
I have a son in college now and a daughter who already graduated and is in the work force. Tuition in our state flagship is about $10,000 a year and room, board and books makes up the rest of the cost. The savings from not feeding our son at home are spent feeding him at college, so the extra cost from high school is actually less than $100,000 total.
As noted, our kids worked in the summers and during the school years for some of the money. We can temporarily reduce 401(k) contributions and charitable donations to come up with most of the extra money needed for college. Sure, everybody cannot do this, but it is another possible source of money.
5
As a college professor, upper middle class by education but a relatively low income, and a mother of a high schooler I read this with great interest. I agree that saving early can make a big difference. I started when my daughter was born. I started with only $100 per month and each time I got a raise I increased the amount I saved for her education each month. Now I could pay for the cost of a UC out of savings but have no where near enough to send her to my alma mater, a private school on the top of everyone's lists of best universities.
I heard once that you never take out more in loans than you can earn in a year in your first job. The problem is not loans, it it taking out more than 20-30k in loans. I am looking forward to retirement so I will not be taking out any loans.
The sad thing is that I have done everything right and I still can not give my daughter the education I was given.
I heard once that you never take out more in loans than you can earn in a year in your first job. The problem is not loans, it it taking out more than 20-30k in loans. I am looking forward to retirement so I will not be taking out any loans.
The sad thing is that I have done everything right and I still can not give my daughter the education I was given.
124
I'm sorry Liza, but hard to have sympathy that you cannot afford private college. You saved, as I did, you sacrificed, as I did, and then you resent the fact that you can't send your kid to private college? Unbelievable!
Guess what? You can send your child to a public university, you enabled that through your own efforts. Feel good. Don't resent. My kids went to public university and did not have to take on debt. Both are doing fine today. Public universities are fine.
Guess what? You can send your child to a public university, you enabled that through your own efforts. Feel good. Don't resent. My kids went to public university and did not have to take on debt. Both are doing fine today. Public universities are fine.
3
If you're a college professor, why not send your child to the university you work for? Having worked in Higher Education for many years it has been my experience that most, if not all Colleges and Universities offer free tuition for dependents of employees.
I'm in exactly the same boat. A college prof, went to an Ivy, now can't afford it for my kids and feel terribly guilty. But a UC is great and your daughter will do just fine.
1
Appreciate the thoughts but McKinley misses the best opportunity in college education. And reinforces the idea that college should be an expense so big, you have to borrow for it - a patently horrible idea.
The best opportunity and only one that makes financial sense is community college. Find the best community or state college in your area and have your student go there for 2 years. Get into their honors program if possible. Then transfer to a 4 year school and get your degree from there.
You can get an excellent 2 year experience for under $5000 - total.
The savings? Up to $140,000 today, and who knows how much in 18 years. Unless you are the wealthiest 1-2%, it is irrational - maybe even crazy - not to take advantage of this.
Because of their out-of-control costs, private colleges are becoming more than a terrible value. They're a horrible economic burden, that threaten to stall an entire generation with massive debt.
The best opportunity and only one that makes financial sense is community college. Find the best community or state college in your area and have your student go there for 2 years. Get into their honors program if possible. Then transfer to a 4 year school and get your degree from there.
You can get an excellent 2 year experience for under $5000 - total.
The savings? Up to $140,000 today, and who knows how much in 18 years. Unless you are the wealthiest 1-2%, it is irrational - maybe even crazy - not to take advantage of this.
Because of their out-of-control costs, private colleges are becoming more than a terrible value. They're a horrible economic burden, that threaten to stall an entire generation with massive debt.
36
Thanks for raising this. Per some of our past reporting, this is true if there is a hard-core culture of completion at the community college (http://nyti.ms/2czAeQT) and the student does absolutely everything right to finish/transfer relatively quickly. (http://nyti.ms/dWrkIK)
10
If a child cannot make it through two years at a community college, then they would never make it through a university, so why waste the money?
Let them work minimum wage jobs for a few years, as that tends to be a great motivator.
Let them work minimum wage jobs for a few years, as that tends to be a great motivator.
11
Well, FSM is certainly 'The Punisher' in this discussion.
A better way to get to a similar result is to strongly encourage your child NOT to go straight to college from high school. The Gap Year is a great way to allow said child to mature, to work (any work - best option), play, give their time to others, whatever...and be a more motivated, focused, and appreciative (of what is really needed) freshman student. College is certainly not "high school without your parents around" -- as so many of them seem to think.
I say this after 16 years of teaching college freshmen. Fully 75% of them would have been better students had they taken a year or two between high school and higher ed.
A better way to get to a similar result is to strongly encourage your child NOT to go straight to college from high school. The Gap Year is a great way to allow said child to mature, to work (any work - best option), play, give their time to others, whatever...and be a more motivated, focused, and appreciative (of what is really needed) freshman student. College is certainly not "high school without your parents around" -- as so many of them seem to think.
I say this after 16 years of teaching college freshmen. Fully 75% of them would have been better students had they taken a year or two between high school and higher ed.
4
Where? NYT, among others, has published numerous articles about the lack of work for teenagers. Where's the actual math on this? Many colleges also require an internship/summer experience at least once if not twice in a college career, many of which are no/no pay. How does that math add up?