This is an important point more need to contemplate. Thanks for articulating it so well. An observation re one line, though: I know you well from reading you for decades, and therefore know this wasn't your intent, but I fear some people will misinterpret your early sentence about Jesus focusing on the sick and poor juxtaposed with gays to imply gays are sick. Maybe you can tweak the language there. Thanks, as always, for elucidating what we always need to see.
19
I see the far-right Christians are out, screaming at Kristof for being a commie or some such. Nice charity, boys and girls.
Of course Kristof happens to be an evangelical Christian, who's asking why many religious people fail to even try living up to their own teachings. Then, he specifically identifies ignorance as a lot of the problem, before going on to praise the many Christians he sees living up to their own teachings.
He was pretty nice about it, actually. Didn't even mention the narcississism and greediness that results in phonies like Creeflo Dollar selling "prosperity gospel." Didn't talk about Pat Robertson or Kevin Swanson, or the other vicious little suckers who have millions, and call for hanging gay people.
Then there was the rant about Stalin. Ever occur that maybe the prob's blind worship, and it doesn't matter what Gawd you blindly worship?
It ought to bother some of you alleged Christians that I know more about yourown faith than you do. For example, I know that faith is there ti be struggled with, not smugly announced.
Of course Kristof happens to be an evangelical Christian, who's asking why many religious people fail to even try living up to their own teachings. Then, he specifically identifies ignorance as a lot of the problem, before going on to praise the many Christians he sees living up to their own teachings.
He was pretty nice about it, actually. Didn't even mention the narcississism and greediness that results in phonies like Creeflo Dollar selling "prosperity gospel." Didn't talk about Pat Robertson or Kevin Swanson, or the other vicious little suckers who have millions, and call for hanging gay people.
Then there was the rant about Stalin. Ever occur that maybe the prob's blind worship, and it doesn't matter what Gawd you blindly worship?
It ought to bother some of you alleged Christians that I know more about yourown faith than you do. For example, I know that faith is there ti be struggled with, not smugly announced.
86
A few thoughts from the late Christopher Hitchens regarding religion:
"To 'choose' dogma and faith over doubt and experience is to throw out the ripening vintage and to reach greedily for the Kool-Aid."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
"My own view is that this planet is used as a penal colony, lunatic asylum and dumping ground by a superior civilisation, to get rid of the undesirable and unfit. I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it either."
"I don't think Romney is wacky at all, but religion makes intelligent people say and do wacky things, believe and affirm crazy things. Left on his own, Romney would never have said something like the Garden Of Eden was in Missouri, and will be again."
"Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are God. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are God."
"To 'choose' dogma and faith over doubt and experience is to throw out the ripening vintage and to reach greedily for the Kool-Aid."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
"My own view is that this planet is used as a penal colony, lunatic asylum and dumping ground by a superior civilisation, to get rid of the undesirable and unfit. I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it either."
"I don't think Romney is wacky at all, but religion makes intelligent people say and do wacky things, believe and affirm crazy things. Left on his own, Romney would never have said something like the Garden Of Eden was in Missouri, and will be again."
"Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are God. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are God."
157
If one doesn't include the giving to their own tax-exempt church, I believe then that the charitable numbers between religious people and the "nones" would be more accurate. Check out the Foundation Beyond Belief to see that the non-religious are also very giving. All in all, this reads quite like a well thought-out call to realize what organized religion really is, and to join Humanism.
46
In oft-overlooked corner of the Bible, Jesus says "And child, if thou parents had been but more successful, ye would have insurance and medicine for thine asthma and leukemia. Repeal Obamacare now and let the free market watch ye perish!"
96
There are the religious who go to church/mosque/synagogue etc. and then leave behind whatever their particular religion really stands for.
There are those who live by the teachings of religions but never set foot in a place of worship.
Which type is more religious? Who would you rather have as your neighbor? Who would you rather have as your president?
There are those who live by the teachings of religions but never set foot in a place of worship.
Which type is more religious? Who would you rather have as your neighbor? Who would you rather have as your president?
60
Sectarianism is the root of the violence pouring through and out of the Middle East. It is all about "faith." That is why they call it 'faith.' It has no scientific foundation. Yet it continues to feed the tribalism that is destroying our world.
In the United States, it has been a combination of radicalized, right-wing "Christianity" and the politicians with their political operatives who have turned the teachings of Jesus, the teachings of compassion and empathy, upside down to suit their needs for power and greed.
When a an old friend of mine, a Catholic by birth and now an evangelical, suggested I, as a spiritual sort, read sections of the Bible, I decided to meet him half way and do the reading.
My conclusion: while my friend and his ilk talk a good show about "love they neighbor," they have also made a mockery of Jesus's teachings. When it comes to gays, they "hate the sin and love the sinner." Oh, PLEASE! They also keep voting for politicians who play the Christian card like a toy violin promising Christian values that will govern their fights in the House and Senate and all the way down-ballot to local and state offices. Yet, those same "Christians" keep siding with the supply-siders by promoting economic natural selection (in the Ayn Rand tradition of endless hate and self-absorption) with a compulsion
to vote for, say, a jobs bill as long as the poor, the old and the sick can be tossed under the boss with Medicare and the ACA. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.
In the United States, it has been a combination of radicalized, right-wing "Christianity" and the politicians with their political operatives who have turned the teachings of Jesus, the teachings of compassion and empathy, upside down to suit their needs for power and greed.
When a an old friend of mine, a Catholic by birth and now an evangelical, suggested I, as a spiritual sort, read sections of the Bible, I decided to meet him half way and do the reading.
My conclusion: while my friend and his ilk talk a good show about "love they neighbor," they have also made a mockery of Jesus's teachings. When it comes to gays, they "hate the sin and love the sinner." Oh, PLEASE! They also keep voting for politicians who play the Christian card like a toy violin promising Christian values that will govern their fights in the House and Senate and all the way down-ballot to local and state offices. Yet, those same "Christians" keep siding with the supply-siders by promoting economic natural selection (in the Ayn Rand tradition of endless hate and self-absorption) with a compulsion
to vote for, say, a jobs bill as long as the poor, the old and the sick can be tossed under the boss with Medicare and the ACA. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.
85
Averroes: Ignorance leads to fear leads to hate leads to violence.
Carlin: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Seneca: Religion is regarded by the common people as true, the wise as false, and the rulers as useful.
Carlin: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Seneca: Religion is regarded by the common people as true, the wise as false, and the rulers as useful.
74
The only people you mentioned as a source of admiration are doctors. And you sneak in a dismissive attitude towards the less educated "religiously illiterate". Interesting how, even a critique of religion, the NYT obsession with the religion of meritocracy sneaks in. Of course, these physicians are great and I my critique is not aimed at them, but as far as the rest of us merely average types, Kristof and the rest of the NYT staff have little time for the likes of us.
11
I'd be happy to see Christians volunteer less as it seems Christians mostly volunteer their opinion that everyone else, but particularly women and homosexuals, is going to hell.
34
Jesus' story is like "Little Red Riding Hood", both entertaining fairytales. Good night and sleep well.
18
None. Read "The Hiding Place". See what people who read the Bible daily and followed it, lived the faith Jesus lived.
7
Religion is the monetization and politicization of philosophy, and very rarely survives as its original philosophical insight more than a generation.
That is human nature for you.
That is human nature for you.
32
In many ways the message of Jesus is as radical now as it was then. I've often thought that if Jesus were to appear today, he would be considered a nut case at best; a dangerous cult leader at worst. Imagine leaving all your earthly possessions behind to follow a man who challenged everything we value in this society: money, materialism, fame, personal gain. Imagine giving up your job, your home, your family and friends. There would be interventions and investigations and psychological evaluations. There would be recorded interviews in which he said we should love our enemies, which would be taken as proof of treason. He would be vilified in the press, and ultimately crucified on Fox News.
107
Jesus, like most people of his time, didn't get around much. It's possible if he'd known about all the other religious cultures that existed in the world, he might have moved to Tahiti instead of trying to fix (of all places...) the Middle East.
15
The founder of the Sikh religion said "there is no Muslim, no Hindu.". He could have added, "No Christian, no Jew, no Sikh."
31
Of course we are reminded of Gandhi's reputed famous answer to the question.."What did he think of Western civilization?"..to which he replied...
"I think it would be a good idea".
"I think it would be a good idea".
70
I don't think Jesus would belong to any current religion. He was a revolutionary in his time. He'd probably start a new one since the one he started has become so corrupted.
64
I admire those who truly live their faith, quietly doing good works for their fellow man, with no expectation of earthly reward. I despise religious peacocks, strutting about shouting their prayers for all to hear, seeking to impose their magical thinking in the public square. My religion has only one commandment: no man's god owns the Golden Rule.
65
I'm a Christian. I try* to follow the teachings of Jesus as a way to live my life. I believe we should LOVE one another -- every gender, every race, every sexual orientation, every religion. I don't think Jesus had in mind the word "TOLERANCE" when he said love. And because Jesus believed in the the sanctity of life, I'm anti-gun, anti-war, anti-capital punishment, and the most controversial of all for liberals, anti-abortion (for myself). And my beliefs infuriate EVERYONE -- liberals, conservatives, the very religious and the atheists. Oddly, for a country that's still predominantly Christian, following the teachings of Jesus Christ, I stand alone.
*(Try, but admittedly fall short more than I'd like)
*(Try, but admittedly fall short more than I'd like)
27
Jesus is coming back soon. All the signs are here. We will each be judged and spend an eternity in heaven or hell. Choose now who you will serve. If it's not Jesus, it's the wrong choice.
8
They are kind. They are generous. They are humble. They love those who do them harm. They live simple lives. They are carpenters. They are the very embodiment of Jesus. They are the Amish.
30
If Jesus's goal would be to worship himself, I guess he would join the same religion Kanye West belongs to.
22
My first thought after reading this was to recall Jesus, when asked how we could know who was a believer, said, "You shall know them by their deeds." But I was raised as a Lutheran so for me, without "Word and Sacrament", doing good deeds is simply living an exemplary life. St. Paul said that without belief in the Resurrection, he would be a fool to think he was a Christian. I think that you are suggesting a new philanthropic way of living that Jesus might commend, but it is not Christianity or even religion.
21
Just be kind.
39
"If oxen, lions, or horses had hands with which to make images, they would undoubtedly form gods with bodies and shapes like their own."
--Xenophanes, fifth century BC
24
Jesus would be a pagan rock star today. She'd tour the world, her shows would be free, food would be free wherever she went. People would follow her because of the good vibe and message of community. It would be like a Grateful Dead show, but more PG and family friendly. The message would be anti-religion, pro-community. Even in her celebrity, she'd find a way to project humilty and set an example of service.
17
"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool."---Voltaire
37
Jesus taught Self-Realization so I think he would be a Yogi. In fact he is held in very high regard in India among Hindus.
There is the story of the old black man whose job it was to keep the white church in good working order. He was the janitor.
He would hear the lovely choir in the church on Sundays and wanted to enter but the pastor told him that it just wasn't to be. He was black and the church was white.
One Sunday he was sitting on the steps of the church listening to the choir within and he started to weep. He turned his head and found that Jesus was sitting on the steps with him.
"Why do you weep, old friend?" Jesus asked.
The old man said he was sad because the people wouldn't let him inside the church.
"Don't feel too, bad. They haven't let me inside either, for a long long time."
Nicholas, your call for Christians, and all of humanity, to begin to live lives in harmony with those of their prophets and avatars is a great start.
It would be nice to hear that call from Christian leaders other than Francis.
But having a pope with the courage to live as Jesus instead of as a prince is a very good start.
There is the story of the old black man whose job it was to keep the white church in good working order. He was the janitor.
He would hear the lovely choir in the church on Sundays and wanted to enter but the pastor told him that it just wasn't to be. He was black and the church was white.
One Sunday he was sitting on the steps of the church listening to the choir within and he started to weep. He turned his head and found that Jesus was sitting on the steps with him.
"Why do you weep, old friend?" Jesus asked.
The old man said he was sad because the people wouldn't let him inside the church.
"Don't feel too, bad. They haven't let me inside either, for a long long time."
Nicholas, your call for Christians, and all of humanity, to begin to live lives in harmony with those of their prophets and avatars is a great start.
It would be nice to hear that call from Christian leaders other than Francis.
But having a pope with the courage to live as Jesus instead of as a prince is a very good start.
49
Mr. Kristof references three godly people, a Catholic, an Evangelical, and a Rabbi, whose actions demonstrate what true religion is all about. True enough, but I would ask where our three heroes developed their dispositions towards such godly service? I'll bet it was within a context of holy ritual. I'll bet again those holy rituals continue to sustain them when humanly speaking all seems lost.
It's not a question of either/or but of both/and. The action part, of course, must be within the possibilities of our own talents. As Mother Teresa told her sisters "If you cannot serve the poor with a smile, then this calling (The Missionaries of Charity)is not for you.
It's not a question of either/or but of both/and. The action part, of course, must be within the possibilities of our own talents. As Mother Teresa told her sisters "If you cannot serve the poor with a smile, then this calling (The Missionaries of Charity)is not for you.
2
I will pray for you. You seem so lost and confused.
5
Jesus was not the "founder" of Christianity. He did not want to start a new religion. He only wanted to reform Judaism. The real founder of Christianity was Paul. He started a theology that would break from Judaism three hundred years later.
39
I just came from Mass and, while this Sunday's sermon was thoughtful and timely, your essay is one I may read every Sunday. Is it a homily or an anomaly? I think it is both. Mother Teresa may be cheering for an unexpected reason. I think the underlying message is that all societies need to "Make Religion Great Again". And we need to accomplish this challenge without any bombast, insults, suffering, inequities or prejudice. No baseball hats required.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
8
Jesus' ministry was a Jewish Lives Matter ministry.
Carried out in the face of brutal Roman oppression, aided by collaborating jewish aristocracy, Jesus preaching proclaimed the promise, indeed the existing presence of divine justice in this world (Kingdom of God) and the individual's necessary response of loving God and neighbor.
Carried out in the face of brutal Roman oppression, aided by collaborating jewish aristocracy, Jesus preaching proclaimed the promise, indeed the existing presence of divine justice in this world (Kingdom of God) and the individual's necessary response of loving God and neighbor.
10
The author need to repent for this article. Can only imagine how many people will be further led astray and away from a relationship with Jesus. The sheer variety of responses here shows how confused people are.
5
Ghandi once said: "I like your Christ. But, I don't like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
Actually, the character of Jesus presented throughout the Net Testament (until the second-century addition of the "Gospel of John") was a Jewish rabbi (teacher) who never made any claim to forsake his Jewish beliefs. Judaism has had reformers in every generation and more than just Jesus have been proclaimed the predicted messiah.
In the retelling of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:17-18 in the KJV), Jesus insisted:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
He emphasized that the religious laws of Judaism as recorded at that time (primarily in Leviticus) were still his guiding principles for his disciples. As far as I know, out of over 600 laws in Leviticus, the only one today's Christians purport to embrace is the one that says that Man should not lie down with Man as with Woman. It is an abomination and both shall be stoned to death.
This is a stricture against a single physical act, not of men loving other men, and nothing about lesbianism. On the preceding page it also says that a son who speaks back disrespectfully to his father should also be stoned to death. I'm still waiting to see a "Christian" preacher making a fuss about our failure to obey THAT law.
Actually, the character of Jesus presented throughout the Net Testament (until the second-century addition of the "Gospel of John") was a Jewish rabbi (teacher) who never made any claim to forsake his Jewish beliefs. Judaism has had reformers in every generation and more than just Jesus have been proclaimed the predicted messiah.
In the retelling of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:17-18 in the KJV), Jesus insisted:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
He emphasized that the religious laws of Judaism as recorded at that time (primarily in Leviticus) were still his guiding principles for his disciples. As far as I know, out of over 600 laws in Leviticus, the only one today's Christians purport to embrace is the one that says that Man should not lie down with Man as with Woman. It is an abomination and both shall be stoned to death.
This is a stricture against a single physical act, not of men loving other men, and nothing about lesbianism. On the preceding page it also says that a son who speaks back disrespectfully to his father should also be stoned to death. I'm still waiting to see a "Christian" preacher making a fuss about our failure to obey THAT law.
18
If Jesus were alive today, perhaps he would belong to one of the religions that were so mercilessly wiped out by the Christians.
5
Like virtually everybody, Kristof assumes the historicity of Jesus and a link between that historical character and today's Christian religions. However, today's objective scholars no longer unanimously share these beliefs. A small but growing group of scholars -- Jesus Mythicists -- see little or no objective evidence that the New Testament stories about Jesus are based on one or more historical figures, and they have come up with alternative explanations on how Christianity might have evolved out of mythological beliefs and characters during the four centuries surrounding the "birth" of the Jesus character.
To me, as one deeply steeped in the Roman Catholic faith, none are more compelling as now silenced and retired Dominican priest and bible scholar Thomas L. Brodie, who, at the close of his academic and priestly career, "came out" as one who had concluded that neither Jesus or St. Paul had ever existed, and who was able to derive much of modern Christianity from Old Testament and other ancient writings.
A good place to get an overview of Jesus Mysticism is at the following website, http://www.mythicistpapers.com/ , which attempts to be an objective resource for the study of Christian origins.
Even if there was no historical Jesus (and we probably never will know for sure either way), religion still has value, and I applaud what Kristof is trying to do in this essay. It matters not exactly how the Jesus stories entered our cultural heritage.
To me, as one deeply steeped in the Roman Catholic faith, none are more compelling as now silenced and retired Dominican priest and bible scholar Thomas L. Brodie, who, at the close of his academic and priestly career, "came out" as one who had concluded that neither Jesus or St. Paul had ever existed, and who was able to derive much of modern Christianity from Old Testament and other ancient writings.
A good place to get an overview of Jesus Mysticism is at the following website, http://www.mythicistpapers.com/ , which attempts to be an objective resource for the study of Christian origins.
Even if there was no historical Jesus (and we probably never will know for sure either way), religion still has value, and I applaud what Kristof is trying to do in this essay. It matters not exactly how the Jesus stories entered our cultural heritage.
11
If Jesus were to reappear today, it would surely be in the western area of the Middle East, where he lived and was executed. He would likely not appear in a Hickey Freeman suit, Joseph Aboud shirt, and Sulka tie, but as he was dressed 2,000 years ago. Does anybody really believe that a long-haired, long-bearded 33-year-old man with olive skin, dressed in a long robe and sandals would not immediately put on the US no-fly list, let alone stand a chance of getting through US customs?
15
Rabbis battling for Palestinian rights, like some off his rocker guy from Chicago, never mention Palestinian anti-Semitism, terrorism directed at Jews simply because they are Jews, or the refusal to accept that Jews lived in the Holy Land for thousands of years. I'm all for self-criticism and dislike the holier than thou attitudes some religious people possess, within the religion or directed at the other. At the same time, "progressive" religion should not be to destroy oneself or rights in order to promote the rights (or wrongs) of the other religion that is diametrically opposed to yours. No free pass on Islamic fanaticism or fundamental hatred of Jews, which is mostly what accounts for the stubborn refusal to accept the Jewish state, on any land.
8
If he really is existed, or as a composite of itinerant rabbis of the time, Jesus was born and died a Jew. End of story!
17
What religion would Jesus belong to? How odd. Let me see if I have this straight. Jesus is defined as the son of God and, as part of the Trinity, God. Religions are generally defined as groups organized in the worship of God. So, unless Jesus is really Narcissus in disguise, I can't imagine his being a member of any deity-worshiping organization. As far as Christianity goes, the interpretations are wide and quite disparate, I find it disturbing that the members of one Christian sect would fervently believe in the damnation of all other sects as well as all other religions. Perhaps a heart to heart discussion of the inspiration for Christianity would be in order. All you need is love.
7
Mother Theresa canonised this week saw the living Jesus by serving the poorest of the poor. She exemplified the volunteering trend over doctrine preferred by many religious Americans. Others have sought a broader spirituality beyond the narrow confines of religion. Yet others have opted out of religion and seek to find life's meaning on their own....the so called atheists. In Muslim countries the opposite trends are at work and we are seeing an emphasis on adherence to customs as they prevailed in the Prophet's times and wit it we are seeing some tragic consequences in the global scene. I may add such discourse should be more globally inclusive and go beyond the Abrahamic faiths and recognise the millions who follow Hinduism, Buddhism , Confucianism , Daoism, Sikhism, Shinto and African religions. That would make for a wider dialogue and go beyond only discussing Jesus.
2
As the original man in on the joke, Jesus was probably an atheist or an agnostic, no?
2
Perhaps he IS the voice of Bernie Sanders- a social democratic platform of caring for the people above the God of profits.
7
Reading these comments, I am struck by how many, including both believers and nonbelievers, feel very able to co-opt Jesus into their own value system. But if he's divine, as orthodox Christians believe, he exists in a realm much higher than any human value system or system of belief. He wouldn't belong to any human religion or spiritual framework for that reason alone. But that doesn't mean that we, as humans, shouldn't.
11
Someone on the street recently handed me a pamphlet that says "God is love. Love is God." That seems to me a pretty good place to start!
5
You don't need religion to fill you "with an almost holy sense of awe."
Just venture outside and open your senses and your heart.
Millions upon millions of people have died and are still dying because people 'believe' their religion, their god, is the only righteous one.
Nobody has died because somebody was an agnostic or an atheist, yet plenty of people belonging to either group do good all over this world.
I am hopeful that if Jesus were to time travel to today he'd be a spiritual atheist like myself.
Just venture outside and open your senses and your heart.
Millions upon millions of people have died and are still dying because people 'believe' their religion, their god, is the only righteous one.
Nobody has died because somebody was an agnostic or an atheist, yet plenty of people belonging to either group do good all over this world.
I am hopeful that if Jesus were to time travel to today he'd be a spiritual atheist like myself.
26
First off, thank goodness Ross and Maureen are off today. In "Mere Christianity" CS Lewis debunked any attempt to reduce Jesus to a medical missionary, a social worker or a revolutionary. I have the utmost respect for Islam, Judaism and other faiths. My Christian faith believes a lot more about Jesus than Kristof wants to cover and no misdirection by Evangelicals for Trump or jet-setting pastors will propel me into abandoning the core of my Christian beliefs. Sorry, Mr. Kristof, but abandoning a lucrative medical career for the poor in Sudan or feeding the hungry in a homeless shelter would require for most of us a deeper theological connection to God than you suggest.
7
Jesus could not likely look to God, his father, for advice on answering this question. He doesn't respond to questions; perhaps he is retired or dead. Jesus might want to look beyond traditional religions believing in a personal God; he being absent from our lives. I don't think Buddha's way fills the quest either--too much self-interest wrapped up in a search for "unconditional happiness." Science won't work; it can't reach beyond the material world.
There's the "golden rule" which I strongly recommend. A quote from literary critic Harold Bloom offers much wisdom. He said: " Only dualism, the distinction between Ideal forms and ordinary realities, is truth for Plato's Socrates."
Today Jesus would best turn to his own ancient words about love and kindness, add in Socrates, and begin again.
There's the "golden rule" which I strongly recommend. A quote from literary critic Harold Bloom offers much wisdom. He said: " Only dualism, the distinction between Ideal forms and ordinary realities, is truth for Plato's Socrates."
Today Jesus would best turn to his own ancient words about love and kindness, add in Socrates, and begin again.
3
"Would"? "Would" if what? The headline is sloppy at best. Must be a way to encapsulate this article without suggesting that Judaism isn't a religion.
2
Jesus said, If you love me keep my commandments. He also said, he who has no sin cast the first stone, then telling the spared adulterous woman, no go and sin no more, we conveniently forget that part.
6
However, we non-believers remain faithful to our founders.
3
One of the political realities about American education is that, gradually, Parochial Schools (where they stressed biblical history and diocesan hierarchies) have been displaced by Charter Schools, where they usually avoid religion almost religiously.
1
If Jesus was alive today and knew the history and current state of religions, its violence, bloodshed, oppression, abuse, control, intolerance he would wish he had been a nameless, faceless hermit living far away from any human beings.
8
"God is a concept by which we measure our pain. I'll say it again. God is a concept by which we measure our pain." -- John Lennon (Plastic Ono Band)
5
Its always fascinating to hear and read all the opinions that "the Churches", and most xtians have missed the point of Jesus' messages. That xtians are always pointing to other xtians and claiming they have it all or a fair amount of it wrong. Everyone but "me" is not a true Xtian, or that's not a true Church. These accusations have been going on from the day Jesus left town and allegedly handed things over to his chosen few, especially Peter.
So IF its been wrong for all these centuries, if you look at the history of how combative xtians have been towards each other it must be,who could possibly know whats the right version? Where's the right message, and why?
Jesus never commissioned a book, or half of one on himself. Never mentions that in the future there will be one and it will be the primary source of knowledge about him. He never mentions using this book along with doctrine and dogma as weapons against others. In fact, if he was clear about anything, it was about how little respect he held for the dogmatists of his day. Jesus never mentions most of what bothers xtians now or in the past. So what EXACTLY was Jesus' messages, why has no one gotten it right for centuries now?
Xtians spend an inordinate amount of time accusing other xtians of not being true. Denigrating others faith in the name of their own alleged righteousness. Owning Jesus and salvation is what xtianity is now all about. Its an, "I know the truth, and you dont" based faith. "Im saved, you're not!"
So IF its been wrong for all these centuries, if you look at the history of how combative xtians have been towards each other it must be,who could possibly know whats the right version? Where's the right message, and why?
Jesus never commissioned a book, or half of one on himself. Never mentions that in the future there will be one and it will be the primary source of knowledge about him. He never mentions using this book along with doctrine and dogma as weapons against others. In fact, if he was clear about anything, it was about how little respect he held for the dogmatists of his day. Jesus never mentions most of what bothers xtians now or in the past. So what EXACTLY was Jesus' messages, why has no one gotten it right for centuries now?
Xtians spend an inordinate amount of time accusing other xtians of not being true. Denigrating others faith in the name of their own alleged righteousness. Owning Jesus and salvation is what xtianity is now all about. Its an, "I know the truth, and you dont" based faith. "Im saved, you're not!"
There are two things keeping Americans away from religioin.
Humility - Admitting we don't know it all, and
Submission - We don't like being told what to do or how to think.
Jesus, knowing this, said that we should come to him like a child. If we only could.
Humility - Admitting we don't know it all, and
Submission - We don't like being told what to do or how to think.
Jesus, knowing this, said that we should come to him like a child. If we only could.
2
Hindu. Jesus was and would be Hindu. I believe anyone who reads the Gita and understands the allegory cannot help but see those teachings, some nearly word for word, from Jesus. Gita was at least 500 years old when Jesus was born.
That was the supreme religion when Jesus was alive and is still the supreme religion today. There is nothing higher for Jesus to learn than Gita.
That was the supreme religion when Jesus was alive and is still the supreme religion today. There is nothing higher for Jesus to learn than Gita.
2
Great article! I think about this all of the time and I do believe that Jesus must be sad to see his good work undone by those who distort his teachings and allow for an anti-woman, anti-gay following. To me, modern day leaders who make the world a better place are people like Ellen Degeneres and Taylor Swift...they remind me of what Jesus wanted for this world.
2
Spiritual people inspire me.
Religious people frighten me.
Religious people frighten me.
14
The religious donate more only because most of their donations are tithes to their churches, which are mostly spent on the churches themselves and not on charity. Imagine all the good that could be done with all that money, plus the taxes that could have been collected from churches, if it were spent on actually helping solve social and economic problems instead of building more and bigger church buildings and enriching big-name preachers and televangelists.
There are non-religious organizations that do service in impoverished and war-torn parts of the world. Doctors without Borders, for one. You can be good without God.
There are non-religious organizations that do service in impoverished and war-torn parts of the world. Doctors without Borders, for one. You can be good without God.
20
I think religion grew out of our awareness of how insignificant we, as individuals, are to the Universe or reality. When we are confronted by our mortality and the fact that nothing we can do be it beg, use our wealth or power will change that mortality. It's quite a blow to become aware of the absolutely certainty of death. We seek, psychologically for some way, some path, to "beat" mortality. We found one in the creation of religion as a way to think we can actually survive mortality. This call of religion is a strong siren's call. It's so hard to resist. As they say, "there are no atheists in a foxhole". After all it's possible there is a God, so might as well cover all the bases.
4
The great religious teachers all seemed to share a common conviction that 'reality' transcends the boundaries we impose upon it. What we call god, humanity and nature are different names we give to what is really a unity are minds are unable to grasp. The languages we use to think divide everything into components that are separate from each other. Unless we have an experience that takes us beyond language to witness the oneness behind seeming diversity, we can't understand what religion really is. The term is often traced to the Latin 'religare,' to bind and connect together into one integrated whole. The founders of the great religions all seemed to have had such a deep and profound consciousness of connection, which is why they all claimed to be just reporting 'the truth,' rather than saying anything new or original. Perhaps that explains why all religions have some version of what we call the golden rule: love all beings as yourself.
5
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked.... One hears little of this coming from Republican Christians trying to shut down health care, demonize immigrants....
32
Jesus, who is alive today (he resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven), is head of the Catholic Church which he founded (Matthew 16: 18) and which continues today through the apostolic tradition beginning with Peter, the first pope (again Matthew 16: 18), to the present pope, Francis.
2
And so the fairy tales continue.
14
Christianity began as a Jewish sect that held that Jesus was the messiah (A jewish term). Gentiles could only join the "Christians" by converting to Judaism. It was only with the 70AD Jewish Revolt where Roman Emperor Hadrian destroyed the Temple re-named Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina and outlawed Jews from living there. This mostly wiped out the influence of the Judean Christians and shifted the influence to the East, where Paul (Saul of Tarsus) was leading the charge to include Gentiles with requiring the onerous requirements of Judean conversion (Circumcision, diet, etc.). As Gentiles migrated in their stories, and traditions began to be incorporated in the new Christian religion. The basic philosophy's presented in the four Gospels by the quotes identified as from Jesus promote acceptance, respect and love for everyone including groups the greater culture saw as unclean (Good Samaritan). and also for professions that were seen as taboo, Matthew the Tax Collector and the woman being stoned for adultery. Jesus main quote on whether you would be saved or go to hell was not that you had to go through him, but that how you treat the poor wherever and whenever you find them. By his statement that he would judge your not feeding, sheltering and clothing the poor the rest does not matter. It will not matter if you use the magic chant "Jesus is my lord and savior" if you do not care for all of the poor and disadvantaged they encounter.
3
One think that has always amazed me of the irony of many in the West--especially among Christians--is the way that they castigate hijab and various head scarves, which are worn by many other parts of the world. Two specific points come to mind:
1. What sort off Freedom or Human Rights do we cherish, and extend to others, if we cannot be openly civil to them?
2. Every time that I have seen a picture, in some sort of Christian book our periodical, it has shown Jesus' Mother, Mary, and other women wearing head scarves. So what if people in other nations, others cultures, wear outward trappings that differ from ours?
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
1. What sort off Freedom or Human Rights do we cherish, and extend to others, if we cannot be openly civil to them?
2. Every time that I have seen a picture, in some sort of Christian book our periodical, it has shown Jesus' Mother, Mary, and other women wearing head scarves. So what if people in other nations, others cultures, wear outward trappings that differ from ours?
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
2
No country in the world is more in need of strong and capable leaders in the U.S. than Israel is and that is why American Jews will be voting for Mrs. Clinton in very large numbers on November 8.
It is noteworthy that Mr. Netanyahu and Sheldon Adelson both appear to agree. Mr. Netanyahu is thus far refusing to comment about the election and Mr. Adelson has not yet released funds he has promised to Mr. Trump.
Both men know far better than most other people what is good and what is bad for the Jewish people.
It is noteworthy that Mr. Netanyahu and Sheldon Adelson both appear to agree. Mr. Netanyahu is thus far refusing to comment about the election and Mr. Adelson has not yet released funds he has promised to Mr. Trump.
Both men know far better than most other people what is good and what is bad for the Jewish people.
4
"...he often comes across as anti-poor, anti-environment, anti-gay, anti-intellectual, anti-immigrant and anti-science. That’s not the Jesus we met in the Gospels!”
But it is the message of Republican party. That is why all these "anti-" groups support the Republican nominees because they either openly (Trump) over covertly hear that message from Republicans since the passage of the Civil Rights Act'.
But it is the message of Republican party. That is why all these "anti-" groups support the Republican nominees because they either openly (Trump) over covertly hear that message from Republicans since the passage of the Civil Rights Act'.
3
It always amazes me how many people claiming to be Christian aren't..
6
I like the Dali Lama's assertion that his religion is kindness. If a religion is not kind, I question the interpretation.
8
He'd be a teacher. The best kind of teacher who encourages all thought, ideas, and access to all information, who stresses the critical thinking process, honest self-reflection and honest self-evaluation.
6
Excuse me for being a curmudgeon but there seems to be no evidence of a historical Jesus. All of the gospels were written well after his supposed death and there are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus. Furthermore, his disciples recount stories that they could not have possibly witnessed -- for example Mary's impregnation and Jesus' birth. The Gospels along with the rest of the Bible are simply stories about mythical superheroes.
Religion is as its adherents do. That's why it's nonsense to talk of Islam as a religion of peace. In this vein, many "Christians" have created a new gospel in which Jesus clearly tells them to hate gays, treats women as child-bearing possessions and joins the Republican Party. Maybe Ronald Reagan is the new Jesus.
Religion is as its adherents do. That's why it's nonsense to talk of Islam as a religion of peace. In this vein, many "Christians" have created a new gospel in which Jesus clearly tells them to hate gays, treats women as child-bearing possessions and joins the Republican Party. Maybe Ronald Reagan is the new Jesus.
9
Good work. BUT, you underestimate the charitable work of atheists like me and my friends. That is because they are not recorded for publicity! We just do not wash our resources through the hands of a religious leader. We go directly to the need. In fact we do exactly what you suggest, we do what we can to improve the world. Opposition to Climate change practices, police violence, lying politicians, oligarchy take over of our national resources, Institutionalized bigotry, wealth disparity, sick-care for profit rather than health-care....I could go on indefinitely...God has nothing to do with it. Jesus would have helped us. Why don't you join us? These things matter!
8
Look towards Lao Tsu; "When people lack a sense of awe there will be disaster."
No need for books, teachings, etc. Just an appreciation of life/nature as a wonder.....
No need for books, teachings, etc. Just an appreciation of life/nature as a wonder.....
5
In Richard Rohr's "Wild Man to Wise Man", under "John the Baptist as a Classic Initiator" he points out that "John saw religion as a transformation of the self and society, rather than a system of belonging... son of a priestly family from both sides, he sets up his own 'nature based' ritual 'for the forgiveness' of sin... in some ways, Jesus' death was inevitable once he accepted John's baptism."
Imagine no religion. Be kind to one another in this life because it feels good and makes you happy, not because God will reward or punish you in the afterlife.
10
"Religion ruins everything." -- Christopher Hitchens. I wish he'd been wrong, even a little.
7
“All the Prophets of God abide in the same tabernacle, soar in the same heaven, are seated upon the same throne, utter the same speech, and proclaim the same Faith.” Bahá’u’lláh
5
Articles like this one and especially the comments that follow make me so glad that there is a Catholic channel like EWTN with a following of over 200 million people around the world. They report the truth about the Catholic Church both good and bad and do not sugarcoat the facts.
An article like Nicholas Kristof's brings out the atheists And agnostics who have no use for religion and revel in finding no purpose for it in their lives. They are the ones who need it the most based on their past comments posted to the NYT from other articles on religion. Their lives have been anything but rosy.
Those of us who do practice our faith experience great comfort and peace especially when we are faced with difficulties beyond our control. We believe in a loving God who never turns his back on his children. There is nothing more assuring than knowing he is there for us in our darkness of days.
An article like Nicholas Kristof's brings out the atheists And agnostics who have no use for religion and revel in finding no purpose for it in their lives. They are the ones who need it the most based on their past comments posted to the NYT from other articles on religion. Their lives have been anything but rosy.
Those of us who do practice our faith experience great comfort and peace especially when we are faced with difficulties beyond our control. We believe in a loving God who never turns his back on his children. There is nothing more assuring than knowing he is there for us in our darkness of days.
7
And so the fairy tales continue
9
I am a practicing Catholic who takes my faith very seriously as do many others. As I am writing this comment, I am watching the Canonization of Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta taking place in St. Peter's square. Every inch of space is filled with the faithful who are so lucky to be part of this extrremely happy and important occasion.
Life is not easy and many of us place our trust in God because we cannot go it alone. There are trials and tribulations that confront us unexpectedly and faith for us is comforting and brings us peace. I was fortunate enough to be given the faith through my ancestors and specifically my parents. I saw how it sustained them in their darkest hours. They also walked the walk and talked the talk as parents for which I am extremely grateful. It does the same for me on those rare occasions when life seems hopeless. Those who do not believe can not understand the joy we receive from religion. Faith is a gift and I feel truly blessed to have been given such a great gift.
I am not trying to convert anyone but just explaining how religion plays an important part in my day-to-day life. I am very fortunate to have many beautiful Catholic Churches in Manhattan in which to attend. Of course, my favorite is St. Patrick"s Cathedral where the faithful can be found on a daily basis. My favorite place for private prayer is the Lady Chapel which is enjoyed by many worshippers. My faith is who Imam.
Life is not easy and many of us place our trust in God because we cannot go it alone. There are trials and tribulations that confront us unexpectedly and faith for us is comforting and brings us peace. I was fortunate enough to be given the faith through my ancestors and specifically my parents. I saw how it sustained them in their darkest hours. They also walked the walk and talked the talk as parents for which I am extremely grateful. It does the same for me on those rare occasions when life seems hopeless. Those who do not believe can not understand the joy we receive from religion. Faith is a gift and I feel truly blessed to have been given such a great gift.
I am not trying to convert anyone but just explaining how religion plays an important part in my day-to-day life. I am very fortunate to have many beautiful Catholic Churches in Manhattan in which to attend. Of course, my favorite is St. Patrick"s Cathedral where the faithful can be found on a daily basis. My favorite place for private prayer is the Lady Chapel which is enjoyed by many worshippers. My faith is who Imam.
5
Thank you for printing my comment so quickly. I want to correct my last sentence to read : My faith is who I am. I am a Christian.
3
There is a fallacy in what Kristof points out in the amount of charitable giving by religious and secular people: most of the "charitable giving" by people self-designated as religious goes to support the religious institutions to which they belong and from which they benefit: staff, church building maintenance, internal church programming, etc. It is remarkable how in many churches/religious bodies how little of the donations actually go to charitable outreach outside the community. And even in religions ostensibly preaching charity, most of the charity goes to only their co-religionists (e.g., Mormons, Muslims).
11
Half of American Christians cannot name the four gospels. They most likely hate the pope because he believes in inclusion and charity. They most likely would hate the newest Saint Theresa if they found out that her Mission is at the forefront of taking care of refugees and all those who are unfortunate. They would love to make slavery 'great again'. No wonder I became an atheist over the past 25 years of being a Texan!
11
Anytime you have an imaginary friend and you want to impose his rules on others, there will be problems. Let's not forget that these people burned Galileo alive for being right. And all the other flavors of imaginary friend people have equally horrifying things. It's just bad.
3
Religious leadership of Christians and Jews has been garbage, primitves bigots sell outs to the Republican Party as it pressed for deregulation and plutocracy
3
Jesus would not recognize the religion that arose a few years after his death, much less the hellenized-romanized-paganized and now Americanized quasi-polytheist doctrines that bear some version of his name, and even less the state-like structures that nourish them.
We can behave decently toward our fellows, as some of his precepts recommend, without believing in crazy things, or thinking of ourselves as religious or even spiritual. Let's work on that.
We can behave decently toward our fellows, as some of his precepts recommend, without believing in crazy things, or thinking of ourselves as religious or even spiritual. Let's work on that.
8
That's really easy, and I'm not even a Christian.
Jesus was JEWISH!
Jesus was JEWISH!
5
Jewish by birth only. The Jews executed him.
3
I've often read that Christianity and Islam are the two large religions that deny the validity of other religions. Seemingly most other religions are eclectic. My indigenous friends from Mexico honor all religions even as they are true to their own traditions. Those who think only they have the answers are living as oxymorons.
6
In the final analysis, Christians believe that a jewish radical who was executed 2,000 years ago by the Romans is the creator of the universe. It is difficult to get around that. Imagine what the course of history would have been if Jesus had condemned slavery and forbad his followers from owning other humans. Does he deserve to be thought of as a great moral leader??
3
Jesus was a Jew, born to Mary, who was a Jew. They lived in the desert. It is highly unlikely that either Jesus or his mother had light skin, blond hair, or blue eyes. Those are attributes that European painters gave them.
Jesus almost certainly had skin that tanned easily. Since he spent a lot of time outside, his exposed skin would have been deeply tanned. His hair and beard would have been, at the lightest, a dark blond, but it's most likely he had dark brown or black hair and brown eyes.
His hands would not be the delicate hands one sees in paintings. Joseph was a carpenter and Jesus followed him into that trade. Carpenters have calluses, scars, healing cuts, and fingers that show evidence of occasional breaks or jammed knuckles.
The "Holy Grail"? The Indiana Jones movie probably got that mostly right. Where would a poor carpenter turned itinerant preacher get a jewel-encrusted gold chalice for any meal, Seder or otherwise? (The "Last Supper" was a Seder.) I'm real skeptical about the cup being stemware.
Like most poor folks at the time, Jews used wooden cups and bowls. Since they lived in the desert, tradition and religious law mandated that separate bowls and plates be used for different kinds of foods. This is what we call "Kosher," but it started as a common sense way to avoid food poisoning. They had no refrigeration.
Learn some history.
Jesus almost certainly had skin that tanned easily. Since he spent a lot of time outside, his exposed skin would have been deeply tanned. His hair and beard would have been, at the lightest, a dark blond, but it's most likely he had dark brown or black hair and brown eyes.
His hands would not be the delicate hands one sees in paintings. Joseph was a carpenter and Jesus followed him into that trade. Carpenters have calluses, scars, healing cuts, and fingers that show evidence of occasional breaks or jammed knuckles.
The "Holy Grail"? The Indiana Jones movie probably got that mostly right. Where would a poor carpenter turned itinerant preacher get a jewel-encrusted gold chalice for any meal, Seder or otherwise? (The "Last Supper" was a Seder.) I'm real skeptical about the cup being stemware.
Like most poor folks at the time, Jews used wooden cups and bowls. Since they lived in the desert, tradition and religious law mandated that separate bowls and plates be used for different kinds of foods. This is what we call "Kosher," but it started as a common sense way to avoid food poisoning. They had no refrigeration.
Learn some history.
10
If this column is correct, it explains why people on the political right advocate for the more extreme sects. They want intolerance.
7
The narrow answer to the question in the headline is doubtless "none." Jesus was not a fan of organized religion, perhaps because even then its inevitable descent into human-centered bureaucracy was easy to see. It's very familiar, though we don't seem to think about it much, that in the US "religious" amd "spiritual" are almost antonyms. Isn't that precisely the point Jesus made again and again?
4
Better yet, what political party would Jesus belong to?
8
The Whigs.
1
These fatuous attacks on religion are simply the last vestiges of a morally and spiritually bankrupt segment of society desperately trying to justify their actions and beliefs. To look at human history and to see religion as a negative requires either a staggering lack of intelligence or sheer, brute ignorance or both.
Let's review. Before religion, rape was common place , and actual rape cultures existed in which it was deemed a right of passage to kidnap a woman from another tribe and rape her. Stealing, if from another tribe, was entirely legitimate. Murder? As long as they weren't in your tribe go hog wild.
Seeing a pattern here? Religion exists to expand the commonality of man and to allow larger and larger groups to interact without the nastiness that characterized early human behavior. The fact that you all get to sit there and whine and moan about how your moral structures dint require religion are only able to do so because religion put a check on the worst impulses of humanity and allowed us to grow. The first buildings made in the cities were temples. You would do well to remember that.
And as a jew, let me say that the moment I trust a rabbi, let alone a reform "only jews for the coupons" rabbi, to tell me what Judaism is rather than to express their thoughts (couched in more humble dismissives than you can shake a Lulav at), is the day I will no longer be Jewish.
Let's review. Before religion, rape was common place , and actual rape cultures existed in which it was deemed a right of passage to kidnap a woman from another tribe and rape her. Stealing, if from another tribe, was entirely legitimate. Murder? As long as they weren't in your tribe go hog wild.
Seeing a pattern here? Religion exists to expand the commonality of man and to allow larger and larger groups to interact without the nastiness that characterized early human behavior. The fact that you all get to sit there and whine and moan about how your moral structures dint require religion are only able to do so because religion put a check on the worst impulses of humanity and allowed us to grow. The first buildings made in the cities were temples. You would do well to remember that.
And as a jew, let me say that the moment I trust a rabbi, let alone a reform "only jews for the coupons" rabbi, to tell me what Judaism is rather than to express their thoughts (couched in more humble dismissives than you can shake a Lulav at), is the day I will no longer be Jewish.
5
Two thousand plus years later we need Him more then ever, he healed the sick raised the dead, knew who was going to betray Him and yet today we are fighting over the same injustices the separation of church and state, money, Greed, corruption, LAND.
Our elected officials have egos that need to be kept in check, they throw around hundreds of Millions just to be able to call the white house and get a favor. I like it the old fashioned way, get on your knees, we are all EQUIL, we are all a PROTECTED class and we are all loved regardless how much or how little we have. In the end of the day we can't take it with us but most of us will all come to someone and that someone or something is usually the God of your understanding. Teach your children well that there is a greater ONE that we are accountable and in the end we will all be accountable to someone or something no protected class only TRUTH.
Can we really worship tow Gods? Would Jesus love us all? Would He stand for the homeless the downtrodden? Before the affordable care act we leaned on him to heal the leapors, make the blind man see, do we not need Jesus in our lives because of medical advances and technology?
We need faith more then ever in my humble, with egos like some of our leaders, throwing around 100s of millions of dollars, in a world of excess, and corruption, pay to play our elected officials spinning out of control with power we need some
Our elected officials have egos that need to be kept in check, they throw around hundreds of Millions just to be able to call the white house and get a favor. I like it the old fashioned way, get on your knees, we are all EQUIL, we are all a PROTECTED class and we are all loved regardless how much or how little we have. In the end of the day we can't take it with us but most of us will all come to someone and that someone or something is usually the God of your understanding. Teach your children well that there is a greater ONE that we are accountable and in the end we will all be accountable to someone or something no protected class only TRUTH.
Can we really worship tow Gods? Would Jesus love us all? Would He stand for the homeless the downtrodden? Before the affordable care act we leaned on him to heal the leapors, make the blind man see, do we not need Jesus in our lives because of medical advances and technology?
We need faith more then ever in my humble, with egos like some of our leaders, throwing around 100s of millions of dollars, in a world of excess, and corruption, pay to play our elected officials spinning out of control with power we need some
1
Thank you for your honesty with respect to a faith doing justice versus cultic religious practices.
2
I think it's clear that Jesus would have been an atheist.
3
Jesus would be an atheist, of course. Who could blame him?
7
jesus was and probably would be today a jew. Christianity was started by paul and a few others, but primarily paul.
7
McLaren says to worry less about whether the events in the Bible are literally true and instead to focus on their meaning.
If there is no reason to believe a religion is factual, and few adhere to its teachings, what is the reason for its existence? What good is it?
If there is no reason to believe a religion is factual, and few adhere to its teachings, what is the reason for its existence? What good is it?
3
Some of the comments....downright hilarious with more than a little absurdity. Listen up folks, he was born and died an observant Orthodox Jew, the only kind which existed. If he were alive today he would be exactly one and the same, an Orthodox Jew who observes halacha. And equally certain he would be mystified at this religon, Christianity, which his disciple Saul founded and used his Life as the basis for its doctrine while also using him as a worship figure.
9
No doubt upon seeing modern religious practice, the response of Jesus would be exactly the same as it was then: "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves. And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
9
Once again we get to see the bigotry of the left on full display in the comments. What's more, I get to chuckle as I read dozens of comments that are not simply incorrect but staggeringly wrong.
The three biggest mass murders of all time were commited by dedicated antitheists. These are the cultural revolution in China (30 mil dead) the great famines in the USSR (50 mil) and the Holocaust (6mil.) Hitler believed that Christianity had failed Germany and that it should be supplanted by a secular, reason driven belief system centered on the state. Stalin was vociferously anti theism to the point of deciding to exile 2 million jews to siberia. Mao was dedicated to eradicating the last vestiges of religion from his land.
the point is that when man seeks to occupy the place of God he is taking on a power and authority no man should have. Whether or not God exists, to pick a side and to declare the other wrong or evil is the root of all these conflicts. Not the religion itself. It is the authority granted by claims to a universal moral code that give religion it's problems. And if you still aren't following, this is the exact same thing you are doing right now.
The three biggest mass murders of all time were commited by dedicated antitheists. These are the cultural revolution in China (30 mil dead) the great famines in the USSR (50 mil) and the Holocaust (6mil.) Hitler believed that Christianity had failed Germany and that it should be supplanted by a secular, reason driven belief system centered on the state. Stalin was vociferously anti theism to the point of deciding to exile 2 million jews to siberia. Mao was dedicated to eradicating the last vestiges of religion from his land.
the point is that when man seeks to occupy the place of God he is taking on a power and authority no man should have. Whether or not God exists, to pick a side and to declare the other wrong or evil is the root of all these conflicts. Not the religion itself. It is the authority granted by claims to a universal moral code that give religion it's problems. And if you still aren't following, this is the exact same thing you are doing right now.
6
As a theologian, there are many point that I'd like to make. First and foremost, I like that this kind of article is even being publish by the NYTimes. Bravo. Secondly, as a Christian who often identifies as a reluctant one, I wonder how the author of this article would weigh the importance of ritual for some Christians. It is something he touches on, but I think it important to name that tradition to some is important, even in liberal progressive Christian communities which do value the import of Christ's compassionate message of love and community, the ritual of service is important, reciting prayers is spiritual, taking communion is spiritual. To throw the baby out with the bathwater seems a little messy. We need both, but to have both we need to understand them both. Lastly, I would have liked to have seen the last paragraph name some ways that the religious serve right in their own backyards. It struck me to read about Sudan, Angola, or Palestine (all very important and valid) when people are hurting in Detroit, New Orleans, and yes, even in the Pacific Northwest. Let's not forget that the message Jesus taught was for us to live in community and to love our neighbor. That literally meant the person sitting right next to us. We romanticize and value the other so far away, but what about the person in our very pew? What about the person living in the next apartment over, do we even know their name??
11
Mr. Kristof, thank you for raining a very important and timely fact.
Perhaps part of the problem is the difference between religion and spirituality.
Most religions appear to have been started by groups of people who were left when a spiritual leader died. And when some groups decided to organize, they became open to the same ills that any organization can have because organizing is a worldly and political focus not a spiritual one.
Spirituality is not about a group, it is individual and intensively personal.
Perhaps part of the problem is the difference between religion and spirituality.
Most religions appear to have been started by groups of people who were left when a spiritual leader died. And when some groups decided to organize, they became open to the same ills that any organization can have because organizing is a worldly and political focus not a spiritual one.
Spirituality is not about a group, it is individual and intensively personal.
6
Count me as none. Humanity is incapable of coexistence, it's not in our DNA to love unconditionally.
1
Religion is, for want of a better term, an accident of birth. What is the correlation of one's religion to the religion one was born into? Or to eliminate the statistics--how many Muslim-born individuals become Catholics or vice-versa?
This opinion piece presents religious affiliation as a conscious, deliberated choice when it is really nothing of the kind. It is inculcated before the powers of reason begin to function.
This opinion piece presents religious affiliation as a conscious, deliberated choice when it is really nothing of the kind. It is inculcated before the powers of reason begin to function.
11
Kristof's point is well taken. Jesus would not belong to any religion anymore than God would belong to any religion. Jesus opened his heart to everyone and lived a life that transcended religious boundaries.
3
Nice article, but you don't really answer the question you use as a title.
What religion would Jesus be today?
What religion would Jesus be today?
3
Jesus was Jewish, and the beliefs attributed to him are still fundamental Jewish beliefs. That is to treat everyone as you would like to be treated. Which also includes that when you are being attacked you have the responsibility to defend yourself.
2
He would belong to none of them because they have all been formed to allow their leaders control, power, and a means to money. They pray upon weak, trusting, and naive people to achieve their goals.
5
Jesus and all the prophets of every true religion summed up the guide for living in The Golden Rule which can be stated simply as: treat others as you would want to be treated if you were in their place.
2
All the evidence points to Jesus having been a conservative, or even a retrogressive or reactionary Jew during a time of radicalism, religious ferment and political turmoil in Judea and Samaria.
Jesus preached not political change, revolution nor radicalism but conformity with the status quo, contentment with one's lot on earth and a return to the earlier values of the aprochryphal pre-Hellenic Jewish aesthetic who allegedly preferred poverty to riches, and thereby succeeded in liberating himself from his earthly concerns and worries.
To borrow the term coined by the late Ninian Smart, Jesus took a neofoundationalist view of Judaism that tried to transcend the power of the priests by looking back to the supposed glorious traditions of the past.
At a time when Jewish nationalists and political agitators were trying to stir up the populace in order to overthrow and expel the Imperial Roman authorities (an impossible task militarily), and were desperately seeking a David reborn, a warrior who would lead the Jews out of their subjugation and enforced civic humiliation, Jesus instead preached obedience to those same Imperial authorities.
As Jews from different sects vied in the province for political power and religious hegemony, Jesus preached that in the eyes of the Creator, all Jews were 'Ein Volk', thus owed unending forgiveness to all other Jews for all civic sins and wrongs.
Jesus had nothing to say to those who were non-Jews. That was left to those who followed.
Jesus preached not political change, revolution nor radicalism but conformity with the status quo, contentment with one's lot on earth and a return to the earlier values of the aprochryphal pre-Hellenic Jewish aesthetic who allegedly preferred poverty to riches, and thereby succeeded in liberating himself from his earthly concerns and worries.
To borrow the term coined by the late Ninian Smart, Jesus took a neofoundationalist view of Judaism that tried to transcend the power of the priests by looking back to the supposed glorious traditions of the past.
At a time when Jewish nationalists and political agitators were trying to stir up the populace in order to overthrow and expel the Imperial Roman authorities (an impossible task militarily), and were desperately seeking a David reborn, a warrior who would lead the Jews out of their subjugation and enforced civic humiliation, Jesus instead preached obedience to those same Imperial authorities.
As Jews from different sects vied in the province for political power and religious hegemony, Jesus preached that in the eyes of the Creator, all Jews were 'Ein Volk', thus owed unending forgiveness to all other Jews for all civic sins and wrongs.
Jesus had nothing to say to those who were non-Jews. That was left to those who followed.
31
There is no evidence that Jesus even existed. No writers living at that time make any mention of him or the supernatural events ascribed to him. The gospels were all written decades after the supposed events they describe. So on what basis do you claim to know his political stances?
5
Jesus did ok, until he began his church.
5
I take issue with your statement that religious people contribute more to charity. To make this comparison you would need to remove donations to their church. Churches spend so much on themselves, they are more social club than charitable organization. I suspect in such a comparison you will find that religious people are less charitable.
24
In reading about Donald Trump's visit to the black church no mention was made in any mainstream media account (including NY Times) of the fact that the pastor lives in a 35,000 square foot mansion. Where does his money come from? It' s no wonder this was the black church that Don the con visited; birds of a feather and all that!
5
He would be a Mormon. What else could he possibly be?
3
While the teachings of Jesus are wonderful if proper
meanings are understood, these have been turned upside
down in the most religious country, USA. Money and
material things and interests of wealthy have become paramount. Jesus cared for poor, fallen and the deprived.
Now these people, in the most religious country, are
denigrated as "moochers" by Mitt Romney, lazy by
the republicans and 'welfare queen" by Ronald Reagan.
In early days Christianity spread quickly in Roman empire
because it appealed to people who were abandoned by
the society. In Islam it is the rituals-pray five times a day
and fast. After the prayer they argue, fight and indulge in
bad behavior. Next week will be festival to observe
another ritual for prophet Ibrahim and millions of animals
will be sacrifice because the prophet Ibrahim tried to
kill his son to prove to God that he can sacrifice his
dearest son for the sake of God. Rituals, festivals
have become main religious observances and the meaning
is lost. No wonder religion doesn't appeal to the people
any more. Religion survives through indoctrination.
meanings are understood, these have been turned upside
down in the most religious country, USA. Money and
material things and interests of wealthy have become paramount. Jesus cared for poor, fallen and the deprived.
Now these people, in the most religious country, are
denigrated as "moochers" by Mitt Romney, lazy by
the republicans and 'welfare queen" by Ronald Reagan.
In early days Christianity spread quickly in Roman empire
because it appealed to people who were abandoned by
the society. In Islam it is the rituals-pray five times a day
and fast. After the prayer they argue, fight and indulge in
bad behavior. Next week will be festival to observe
another ritual for prophet Ibrahim and millions of animals
will be sacrifice because the prophet Ibrahim tried to
kill his son to prove to God that he can sacrifice his
dearest son for the sake of God. Rituals, festivals
have become main religious observances and the meaning
is lost. No wonder religion doesn't appeal to the people
any more. Religion survives through indoctrination.
3
Excellent column today Mr. Kristof. Couldn't agree with you more.
3
Nicholas, you seem to have a problem with the concept of the supernatural. You are an excellent writer but let me remind you what the gold standard professed, “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” William Shakespeare, Hamlet
1
Perhaps God wants to change an individual by himself. But said followers and religion wants others to change as per their belief.... that creats chaos and extremism. But intuition works in everybody. Those who gather courage, will oppose others misbelief to protect himself and so he will rather choose to be 'nones'. Those who still are deficient in courage, will follow religious rituals without question. But such scenario will continue because everybody is developing in his/her way.
1
Jesus would not be happy with Islam.
2
Jesus would not have been a member of any organized religion as we know it today. Nor would Muhammad.
Faith is not centered around an organized religion. It is the product of one's capacity to place belief in something beyond ourselves.
We, as a society, inevitably institutionalize everything (education, medicine, etc.) which we consider to be of value. That was not the point of what Jesus and Muhammad (and many others) brought to us.
One might argue that the majority of the negative aspects of any religion are tied directly to that institution's need to protect itself rather than espouse its moral teachings. Jesus and Muhammad would have had little of that!
Faith is not centered around an organized religion. It is the product of one's capacity to place belief in something beyond ourselves.
We, as a society, inevitably institutionalize everything (education, medicine, etc.) which we consider to be of value. That was not the point of what Jesus and Muhammad (and many others) brought to us.
One might argue that the majority of the negative aspects of any religion are tied directly to that institution's need to protect itself rather than espouse its moral teachings. Jesus and Muhammad would have had little of that!
5
With great respect for Mr. Kristof, the world's faiths are practiced many ways by their many adherents. Unfortunately, the extreme practitioners capture media attention with their loud and misguided "brand" of their religions. As the Dalai Lama writes, "at any given moment there must be hundreds of millions of acts of kindness taking place around the world." Few make it into the news. At my Presbyterian church in Northern California, we grow 1,000 pounds of organic tomatoes for the hungry each year, build houses in Mexico, and are leaders in sustainability and inclusivity. We are practicing the religion Jesus founded.
4
What religion would Jesus belong to? His own religion was Judaism, however, his teachings and daily living often challenged the doctrine and authority of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Followers praised Jesus as the Messiah (that he would do for them what David did for his generation, liberation from oppressors and establish a Jewish Kingdom), for which he never declined but obliquely affirmed, "You say that I am." Also, in contrast to the casuistic ethics of the time Jesus taught the Sermon on the Mount, an ethic of love and service. And this tension between orthodoxy and orthopraxy, right doctrine, teaching, and right practice, devotion and ministry has always existed in Christianity. To a diverse gathering of people, Jesus called them the light of the world. He said they would inherit the earth. He urged them to live life "grace-fully" knowing they are forgiven and they freely forgive others. Another time, Jesus said God's world is not some place over the horizon or at the end time, but right in their midst; and it does not include proper diet and dress, but rather love and justice. I think in our time, Jesus would continue his ministry as a poor itinerant teacher of parables and healing practicing what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called "religionless religion". (Dietrich Bonhoeffer rightly identified religion as a garment Christianity wore throughout history, often changing.) I think Jesus would be like the Dali Lama and Mother Teresa.
1
organized religion is a money making endeavor. spirituality and money don't mix and never will. once somebody's salary depends on a particular "faith"? game over. we need to move on. the argument that people would not consider their spirituality without churches is a fallacy..... it is an integral part of being human.
7
Jesus was a Jew and the religion he practiced was Judaism, the religion of Jewish prophets, not the temple based religion of the Pharisees. He was not seeking to establish another religion.
7
Over many years of absorbing information about human history, it has become apparent to me that civilization, as much as we have it, is relatively new. The human story is one of fighting for survival. When humans are in survival mode, they are not kind and good. When humans, like other mammals, are threatened, they fight, they murder, they enslave, they rape and pillage. This history is documented in many books of the Bible.
Civilization and government, as much as we hate government, has been a force for good, reducing violence dramatically. While there is still much violence and ugly behavior in the world, it was much worse in the times of those considered prophets, messiahs, or teachers.
What government allows us to do is to settle disputes without guns and swords, and to do work that benefits us all even though profit is not possible. In the 19th century, fire departments were often privately owned and would only fight fires when paid by the property owner. That didn't work well because if my neighbor's house burns, mine might too even though I paid for fire protection.
We need religions that respond to the needs of the people--that is something we don't want anyone to decide for others. We have had the experience of government and religion being married and its results include the Inquisition and oppressive law under Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, and Christians. My needs may be quite different than yours, so freedom is essential.
Civilization and government, as much as we hate government, has been a force for good, reducing violence dramatically. While there is still much violence and ugly behavior in the world, it was much worse in the times of those considered prophets, messiahs, or teachers.
What government allows us to do is to settle disputes without guns and swords, and to do work that benefits us all even though profit is not possible. In the 19th century, fire departments were often privately owned and would only fight fires when paid by the property owner. That didn't work well because if my neighbor's house burns, mine might too even though I paid for fire protection.
We need religions that respond to the needs of the people--that is something we don't want anyone to decide for others. We have had the experience of government and religion being married and its results include the Inquisition and oppressive law under Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, and Christians. My needs may be quite different than yours, so freedom is essential.
7
He was an Orthodox Jew, the only kind then existing, who would have been horrified and disgusted had he known that Saul would use him as a worship icon for his new belief-system, Chrisitanity. Were he alive today he would be that same Orthodox Jew embracing Rabbinical Judaism and Halacha and most certainly not a member of Rabbi Jacob's Reform movement who have largely abandoned Halacha, have embraced the BDS movement and are really just one more Leftwing movement cloaked in a 'religious' veneer.
5
It's clear from the article that the author never understood any of the writings of Jesus. He hated religion and would have see right through your "faith' to the horrible, evil, black core of all religions. That Doctor in Sudan is the one doing the good work, not your imaginary, sadistic, friend in the sky or whatever silly ancient superstition he happens to believe in his office hours.
When I was a child, many years ago before the middle of the last century, our county seat had only 4 churches (by which I mean 4 white churches: black ones didn’t count among folks who counted): Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist (of the Southern variety). The sizeable Jewish community had already left town, and the Catholics consisted primarily of a few rich ladies who could afford to be. This tale was current at the time:
One Sunday a man passing through stopped and asked of an elderly black man, “Uncle,” using the form of polite address of the time, “is there a Church of Christ in this town?”
The black man pondered. “Well, there’s the Methodist, but it’s the church of Mr. Q.Z Jones, who also owns the bank. Presbyterian, that’s Mr. B.B Smith’s church, he’s a lawyer who takes care of all the rich widow’s in town. Episcopalian? That belongs to Mr. M.N. Quaint, who runs the newspaper. Baptist? That’s Mr. J.J. Apple’s church, he owns a big farm outside of town. Church of Christ? I don’t think we’ve got one of those here.”
One Sunday a man passing through stopped and asked of an elderly black man, “Uncle,” using the form of polite address of the time, “is there a Church of Christ in this town?”
The black man pondered. “Well, there’s the Methodist, but it’s the church of Mr. Q.Z Jones, who also owns the bank. Presbyterian, that’s Mr. B.B Smith’s church, he’s a lawyer who takes care of all the rich widow’s in town. Episcopalian? That belongs to Mr. M.N. Quaint, who runs the newspaper. Baptist? That’s Mr. J.J. Apple’s church, he owns a big farm outside of town. Church of Christ? I don’t think we’ve got one of those here.”
7
People congregate to encourage each individual to think spiritually about their actions today, because those actions reverberate throughout history. The Butterfly Effect is real, and you are the Butterfly. "... when good people do nothing" is when good people limit their horizons. Maybe this is what the great religious thinkers were saying. In any case, the value of religion is the value of congregation. To broaden your spiritual horizon through strength in numbers. The virtue of 'broadening' is also the spiritual value of travel!
When Nicholas Kristof writes the truth, and he has, that is when he is reallyb being religious.
1
If Christ were alive today he would look at how some Christians are behaving and speaking in parts of the United States, and he would be ashamed to be a Christian.
Many of these people can be seen at political gatherings in favor of a certain presidential candidate, shouting obscenities and threats at other Americans whom they perceive as enemies and "less patriotic." These very same people make the most noise about upholding Christian values.
I think Christ would weep.
Many of these people can be seen at political gatherings in favor of a certain presidential candidate, shouting obscenities and threats at other Americans whom they perceive as enemies and "less patriotic." These very same people make the most noise about upholding Christian values.
I think Christ would weep.
15
As many have observed, Jesus was a lifelong observant Jew. His effort was to reform Judaism from an "angry father" religion into a loving and caring religion. I want to throw things at the television when I see "Christian" people invoking the Old Testament to justify actions that run counter to the New Testament, to Jesus's words. He was trying to erase those Old Testament ideas.
Better that we all realize that "You are God." How you approach your life, the lives of others, and the world around you defines you. Do not expect intervention from on high. "God helps those who help themselves" is an old homily that suggests that your sincere efforts will be multiplied -- because others will notice and help out, although that's not how most interpret it. When you follow the teachings of those like Jesus, the real teachings and not the distortions, you begin a process that reflects back on you and results in happiness that cannot compare with wealth. Then, you are God. When you choose the alternative of disparaging your fellows and of sociopathic greed, as too many have these days, then you are the devil.
Life is a metaphor for religion. Whether you do it individually or in groups, by single acts of helping other individuals or by working for the entire planet, do good. Become God.
Better that we all realize that "You are God." How you approach your life, the lives of others, and the world around you defines you. Do not expect intervention from on high. "God helps those who help themselves" is an old homily that suggests that your sincere efforts will be multiplied -- because others will notice and help out, although that's not how most interpret it. When you follow the teachings of those like Jesus, the real teachings and not the distortions, you begin a process that reflects back on you and results in happiness that cannot compare with wealth. Then, you are God. When you choose the alternative of disparaging your fellows and of sociopathic greed, as too many have these days, then you are the devil.
Life is a metaphor for religion. Whether you do it individually or in groups, by single acts of helping other individuals or by working for the entire planet, do good. Become God.
6
The long arms of old men (nearly always men) reach from the depths of the cesspools of power to steal religious messaging. Dubious about organised religion? You should be.
2
As some of the commentators have mentioned, but Mr. Kristof seems to have forgotten, Jesus was a Jew who addressed his teaching to Jews in the ancient tradition of radical prophetic criticism – beginning with the prophet Nathan who confronted King David with his sins ("You are the man!") Jesus never left Judaism or indicated that he was founding a new religion. He was a moral critic and radical teacher from within the tradition. I find it strange and disheartening that Mr. Kristof carelessly assumes that Christianity is "the religion," virtually defining and filling the category of "religion," erasing Judaism by ignoring it.
7
Nice column but Jesus of course would be Jewish. Because that's what he was (& his mom & dad & brother & friends all). & I'm not being facetious here. There's plenty of Judaism in Christianity. Although I cant figure out what that pastor in Detroit was thinking when he draped Trump in a tallis.
6
As an "Episcopalian" elementary schooler ( whatever that means) at the very Catholic Sacred Heart school (where the nuns used corporal punishment) the main lesson I learned was one of hypocrisy and ostracism. Us non-Catholics were put in separate religion classics and made to sit at the very back of the church at masses in addition to being restricted from partaking in communion. The result: I was an ardent atheist by the age of 10 with an unusual fascination with communion hosts.
6
I firmly believe, as a student of cultural anthropology and comparative religions, that God (in whatever form) did not make man - but man made God.
Is is certainly not a new or original theory - but it bears repetition, that early man must have been constantly terrified in a physical and natural word he understood virtually nothing: why it rained or didn't; why there were storms and terrifying thunder and fatal lighting; why plants grew or didn't; why herds of animals appeared each year in a certain place at a certain time - even why the sun came "up" and went "down" each day.
They had the human trait of wanting to understand and control - every people in every place on the face of the earth did - and they all chose a supernatural being - by far most often gods. They had control by appeasing these gods, and found people to blame if the gods were not appeased. How they came to exist was explained through creation myths; the names they called themselves all translated into "the people" - all were "chosen", "us" versus "them' for survival.
As what man came to know and understand widened with science - astronomy, and mathematics and migration and medicine, the areas we attributed to the appeasement of gods shrank - even the number of gods shrank - but our feeling that our worldly view, our people, our God was the best, the right, the only never did.
The stories and "miracles' and myths and beliefs held on, repeated over generations, now sacrosanct - the only way.
Is is certainly not a new or original theory - but it bears repetition, that early man must have been constantly terrified in a physical and natural word he understood virtually nothing: why it rained or didn't; why there were storms and terrifying thunder and fatal lighting; why plants grew or didn't; why herds of animals appeared each year in a certain place at a certain time - even why the sun came "up" and went "down" each day.
They had the human trait of wanting to understand and control - every people in every place on the face of the earth did - and they all chose a supernatural being - by far most often gods. They had control by appeasing these gods, and found people to blame if the gods were not appeased. How they came to exist was explained through creation myths; the names they called themselves all translated into "the people" - all were "chosen", "us" versus "them' for survival.
As what man came to know and understand widened with science - astronomy, and mathematics and migration and medicine, the areas we attributed to the appeasement of gods shrank - even the number of gods shrank - but our feeling that our worldly view, our people, our God was the best, the right, the only never did.
The stories and "miracles' and myths and beliefs held on, repeated over generations, now sacrosanct - the only way.
7
John 3:16 ..... end of story.
2
A great column. You are like the prophets of old.
3
There is a common failing among many followers of all religions. The teachings of the founders were meant to be a guide for self examination to judge themselves by. The failing is when that inward guide and judgement is turned outward on to others.
4
What would Abram of Ur, Sumer (modern Iraq) think of the Zionist Jewish extremist supremacist Israeli occupation, blockade/siege, exile and 2nd class citizenship of the 6 million Christian Muslim Arab Palestinian Israeli's by 6.1 million Jews?
What would Abraham think of the scriptures, prophets and theologians and the ethnic sectarian cleansings, crusades, inquisitions, jihads, ghettos, pogroms, enslavement, wars, colonization and genocides including the Holocaust done in his name?
There is only one biological DNA genetic evolutionary human race divided and defined by many faiths and hues and ethnicities. There are 2.3 billion Christians, 1.6 billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, half a billion Buddhists and 16 million Jews. Our humble humane empathetic humanity is both our lowest and highest common unifying denominator.
What would Abraham think of the scriptures, prophets and theologians and the ethnic sectarian cleansings, crusades, inquisitions, jihads, ghettos, pogroms, enslavement, wars, colonization and genocides including the Holocaust done in his name?
There is only one biological DNA genetic evolutionary human race divided and defined by many faiths and hues and ethnicities. There are 2.3 billion Christians, 1.6 billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, half a billion Buddhists and 16 million Jews. Our humble humane empathetic humanity is both our lowest and highest common unifying denominator.
1
Haha… Jesus is a blank faced prophet to the NYTimes, only when the Gospels are used to point out that Jesus never actually said, “tax the beJesus out of everybody and pretend it’s charity. “
1
Kristov writes a wonderful column for this Sunday. In addition, Dostoyevsky covered all this in the "Grand Inquisitor" chapter of "The Brothers Karamazov."
1
If anything, Jesus's core message focused on humanizing a very inhuman, distant Jewish god, and on encouraging followers to treat all human beings as divine creations, that deserve respect, care and love. God isn't in the clouds, he sits next to you on the bus, begs on the street and walks your neighborhood. If Christians really wanted to follow this part of his message, they would treat everyone on this planet equally, without animosity, hate or fear. There would be no war, no murder, no hate. Do unto others has everything to do with our fellow human beings, yet sadly, today, many people see it as do for yourself....before you do anything for others. This is the worst perversion of Jesus's message.
4
Kristoff sickens me. He politicizes the question when he suggests that a righteous Jewish person would be fighting for Palestinian rights. Kristoff the prophet who thunders that Jews (_yes...here is the conflation of politics, faith, and sanctity) are unrighreous in defending themselves from Palestinians of whom 90% hate Jews and want only to destroy Israel.
Nick...if there was a Jesus, then he was Jewish....if he came back, his comfort would be found in a synagogue ...that is, until he found out that your Christian brethren had spent almost 2000 years murdering his Jewish brothers and that your Christian faith had provided the impetus for the Holocaust. Then, there might be more fear than comfort.
Nick...if there was a Jesus, then he was Jewish....if he came back, his comfort would be found in a synagogue ...that is, until he found out that your Christian brethren had spent almost 2000 years murdering his Jewish brothers and that your Christian faith had provided the impetus for the Holocaust. Then, there might be more fear than comfort.
6
yogi Thank you for your comment.
2
Someone arriving in the U.S from another planet would think that Jesus wore a suit , railed against abortion , and was horrified at the spread of health insurance .
8
Secular people and liberals living their daily lives, I have observed, serve humanity more both in terms of their careers and occupations as well as their honest existential presence among us. They also are the ones who, through their political efforts, do more good for those who need help and support (includes both national and international efforts, of course). Frankly they are more humanely productive than ever I have noticed among religious people, especially conservative ones. Totaling dollar amounts to determine who gives the most to charity tends to reveal them, I suspect, as being less active than liberals and secular people in their daily being.
5
Maybe I'm missing something or being a little picky but Jesus is not the founder of Christianity as I understand the history of the religion. He did not call himself Christ; he did not set out to build a new religion. Perhaps the same could be argued for Buddha.
Therefore, it seems to me that Jesus would either continue to shape his own religion, Judaism, or he wouldn't belong to anything but would just continue to be a person with ideals who is willing to stand up for and fight better behavior. From everything I've read, if he existed he would probable eschew the braggadocio that being a cult leader/founder entails and he was far from being a narcissist who thought he alone could save the world.
Therefore, it seems to me that Jesus would either continue to shape his own religion, Judaism, or he wouldn't belong to anything but would just continue to be a person with ideals who is willing to stand up for and fight better behavior. From everything I've read, if he existed he would probable eschew the braggadocio that being a cult leader/founder entails and he was far from being a narcissist who thought he alone could save the world.
8
Yes, I meant Nick. (These Kristof and Bruni columns are starting to blur)
Sorry Nicky, but Jesus would likely be the same observant Jew today that he was over 2,000 years ago in Galilee. While we are told he was concerned with the corruption of his religion at the time, we can learn from scholars like Amy-Jill Levine that he was likely serious about the practice of his religion and likely never thought about starting a new one.
I realize that this may not fit your own politically-liberal narrative, but you should leave that out of any legitimate discussion. Go do some research next time.
I realize that this may not fit your own politically-liberal narrative, but you should leave that out of any legitimate discussion. Go do some research next time.
8
Yeshua was born, lived and died a Jew. He never revolted against the Jewish religion but against the corruption and suffering he perceived during a repressive colonial occupation and a quisling Jewish puppet administration. The epistles commonly read and known are those sanctioned by the early church authorities. Since we all grown up and live in a multicultural world I believe the time is long overdue when the unsanctioned epistles be released, at least to bible studiers, if they are found to be too controversial for the public at large. It is also a tragedy that Constantine adopted the new Christian religion on his death bed as a tool to discredit rebellious Jews and their faith which, as so correctly stated in the masterful book "The Sword of Constantine", was the beginning of the way that led to Auschwitz with the continuing demonisation, persecution and expulsion of the Jews anywhere by the Roman Church. What would Jesus (Yeshua) think of the practices of the Church founded on his name? You tell me. One thing you may be sure of he, would never have turned against his own people.
7
I have long thought that it would be a great benefit to evangelicals and doctrinaire "Christians," if they were to ask Jesus into their hearts. I was at a Catholic university during Vatican II. There have been brief glimpses.
This sort of stuff is beyond annoying. For Christians, Jesus was not a radical leader, a wise philosopher, or even a holy prophet. He was God incarnate.
7
Amen. This column is a prime example of why I hate read the NYT.
1
Could it be that Christ was a radical leader, wise philosopher, holy prophet AND God incarnate? In other words, God and (Wo)Man. And if God is Love then social justice for all would follow-and tolerance, and brother/sisterhood... Don't narrow your gaze, but widen it.
2
If you want to find a church that actually views religion through the views expressed in this column, search out and visit your local Unitarian Universalist congregation. Serving others and honoring the web of humanity of which we are all a part is a foundation of this faith community. Honoring and using our intellect is another aspect of this church, and the sources of the lessons taught can be anything from a Times article to a novel to the Gospels.
4
What religion would Jesus belong to? Maybe you missed it, Nick. (don't tell me you're busy with those exposed anti-Israel tweets again bordering on the you know what?). But Jesus was a Jew. Nowhere in the Christian gospels does he ever renounce his people and his Judaism. No? Show me otherwise.
6
Jesus was, in fact, a Jew. He never had anything to do with establishing Christianity. That's the story, and it's a good one, even if not necessarily true.
5
Jesus the "get your groove on", "if it feels good do it", "social justice" kind of guy and Mohammad; a champion of women's rights? How much more distant from the facts could the contents of this editorial possibly be?
A couple of inconvenient facts about Jesus:
1. He was an observant Jew who fully accepted Jewish moral law, including its strick understanding of human sexuality. He would have been staunchly conservative on the social issues of our day, demanding repentance from those who broke with the law.
2. Jesus was a messianic Jew who did not concern Himself with the politics of Rome. He would be an apolitical figure today.
3. He was a supernaturalist who would have condemned the materialism, naturalism, and nihilism of our day.
And Mohammad?
1. Mohammad wedded a child of 7.
2. He sanctioned the enslavement and raping of young girls and women as part of his numerous conquests.
3. He authored a holy book that subjugated women to to whim of men.
Inconvenient facts sir. But facts nonetheless.
A couple of inconvenient facts about Jesus:
1. He was an observant Jew who fully accepted Jewish moral law, including its strick understanding of human sexuality. He would have been staunchly conservative on the social issues of our day, demanding repentance from those who broke with the law.
2. Jesus was a messianic Jew who did not concern Himself with the politics of Rome. He would be an apolitical figure today.
3. He was a supernaturalist who would have condemned the materialism, naturalism, and nihilism of our day.
And Mohammad?
1. Mohammad wedded a child of 7.
2. He sanctioned the enslavement and raping of young girls and women as part of his numerous conquests.
3. He authored a holy book that subjugated women to to whim of men.
Inconvenient facts sir. But facts nonetheless.
7
Viz your "facts" on Muhammad
1) There is only one questionable Hadith which says Muhammad wedded Aisha at 6 (not 7). This claim is contradicted by several other sources, which would have required Aisha to have been doctoring soldiers on the battlefield while under 10.
2) Muhammad only responded to aggressive attacks on his people. The Islamic wars of conquest happened after Muhammad's death.
3) There is nothing in the Koran which takes rights away from the Women of his time. Everything in the Koran about woman improved their lot from their previous status.
1) There is only one questionable Hadith which says Muhammad wedded Aisha at 6 (not 7). This claim is contradicted by several other sources, which would have required Aisha to have been doctoring soldiers on the battlefield while under 10.
2) Muhammad only responded to aggressive attacks on his people. The Islamic wars of conquest happened after Muhammad's death.
3) There is nothing in the Koran which takes rights away from the Women of his time. Everything in the Koran about woman improved their lot from their previous status.
1
Didn't Dostoyevsky answer your question in the "Grand Inquistor"?
1
I have the answer to your question, Frank. Jesus, who was born and died a Jew, would be a Jew. And Martin Luther would be a Protestant. And St. Francis a Catholic.
www.newyorkgritty.net
www.newyorkgritty.net
6
A few years ago my wife, who is more religious than I am, convinced me to read the Bible. After reading the Gospels, I came back to her and asked, do you think any of the Christians have read this?
10
This is no mystery. Jesus was Jewish and would remain so. This is the great irony of modern Christianity, which popularly denounces the tenets of Jesus' faith while pretending to follow and worship him.
10
"ONE puzzle of the world is that religions often don’t resemble their founders."
Why? Ask the Emperor Constantine. He knew and used it to his advantage.
Why? Ask the Emperor Constantine. He knew and used it to his advantage.
4
What religion does God belong to? The same answere applies to Jesus.
4
You've got your "End Times" and your "Rhapsody" and your "Armegeddon" to comfort you and give you excuses not to work on the real horrors afflicting your fellow man. If you are not waiting around for the Second Coming, there is the "Prosperity Gospel" to give you hope for magic personal improvement - perhaps a lottery win. If religion is the opiate of the masses, at least many of us recognize the fact that opiates are two sided swords.
5
“Because I grew up in a very conservative Christian context, we were always warned about changing the essential message,” McLaren told me. “But at the same time, we often missed how much actually had changed over time.” Christianity at times approved of burning witches and massacring heretics; thank goodness it has evolved!"
Has it? Okay, sure...there is no public pillorying any more, no witch fires, etc. But there sure is a lot of public displays of condemnation towards others going on. Right now we see a lot of "good" xtians vilifying Muslims and immigrants as direct threats to them. We see preachers all over TV spewing invective towards homosexuals and even our President.
Im not so convinced that given some leeway, many American xtians wouldn't be out there physically persecuting their perceived enemies. Because after all, its always other peoples actions that make it harder for a good xtian being a better one. Everyone else has to fly right, before they can be better xtians. "The World is my sworn enemy and it tempts me, if only I could control The World at large."
The ONLY reason Xtianity stopped its murder and mayhem tours was the forced insertion of Secularism into the control booth of a civilized society. Thats it! Xtianity didnt self-correct, it was forced to correct, to evolve by the historically sudden turn in the West towards the rule of Civil Law, and away from any idea that religious law had any place in governing a civilized society.
Has it? Okay, sure...there is no public pillorying any more, no witch fires, etc. But there sure is a lot of public displays of condemnation towards others going on. Right now we see a lot of "good" xtians vilifying Muslims and immigrants as direct threats to them. We see preachers all over TV spewing invective towards homosexuals and even our President.
Im not so convinced that given some leeway, many American xtians wouldn't be out there physically persecuting their perceived enemies. Because after all, its always other peoples actions that make it harder for a good xtian being a better one. Everyone else has to fly right, before they can be better xtians. "The World is my sworn enemy and it tempts me, if only I could control The World at large."
The ONLY reason Xtianity stopped its murder and mayhem tours was the forced insertion of Secularism into the control booth of a civilized society. Thats it! Xtianity didnt self-correct, it was forced to correct, to evolve by the historically sudden turn in the West towards the rule of Civil Law, and away from any idea that religious law had any place in governing a civilized society.
7
That is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever heard.
The Christian world view is based upon objective morality - God's will. Any leading atheist philosopher will tell you that there can be no objective morality without God - the objective moral law-giver, if you will.
Atheism, and secularism, does not believe in objective morality - it's all relative morality, that is to say, cutural customs or personal preferences. Once morality is relative, there is absolutely no basis to say that one set of morals is better than another. If you are in a culture that believes murdering Jews is OK, then essentially, without God, it is OK.
The point being, you will never ever find an secular society that would "correct Christianity" - because no such society would hold higher values, and if it did, would have no basis to say its values were higher than Christians.
So let's just drop this "forced Christianity to correct" dead in its tracks. It is just plain wrong, and probably malicious. The only "corrections" to Christianity are really just "cultural moral norms" being corrected by Christians, who have every right to say that some morals are better than others.
Seriously, the atheistic world view has no basis for morals, period, so an attempt to assert superior morality from an atheistic or secular world view is far worse than meaningless. (Leaning toward malicious).
The Christian world view is based upon objective morality - God's will. Any leading atheist philosopher will tell you that there can be no objective morality without God - the objective moral law-giver, if you will.
Atheism, and secularism, does not believe in objective morality - it's all relative morality, that is to say, cutural customs or personal preferences. Once morality is relative, there is absolutely no basis to say that one set of morals is better than another. If you are in a culture that believes murdering Jews is OK, then essentially, without God, it is OK.
The point being, you will never ever find an secular society that would "correct Christianity" - because no such society would hold higher values, and if it did, would have no basis to say its values were higher than Christians.
So let's just drop this "forced Christianity to correct" dead in its tracks. It is just plain wrong, and probably malicious. The only "corrections" to Christianity are really just "cultural moral norms" being corrected by Christians, who have every right to say that some morals are better than others.
Seriously, the atheistic world view has no basis for morals, period, so an attempt to assert superior morality from an atheistic or secular world view is far worse than meaningless. (Leaning toward malicious).
3
Rima Regas says, "Any philosophy professor worth his or her salt will counsel undergrads to take comparative religion courses in addition to philosophy, logic and ethics courses.
In all other developed and first world nations, high schoolers get a head start and get at least a year of philosophy and comp. religion."
America isn't any other nation, Ms. Regas. WE have Separation of Church and State, with a national religion prohibited, and Amendment. All religious teaching should be done in the home and place of worship. Too many of OUR lawmakers have forgotten that and it is time religious organizations who ignore the law have their tax-free status taken away and are taxed back for all the property and wealth OUR largess has allowed them since the U.S. Constitution was signed.
In all other developed and first world nations, high schoolers get a head start and get at least a year of philosophy and comp. religion."
America isn't any other nation, Ms. Regas. WE have Separation of Church and State, with a national religion prohibited, and Amendment. All religious teaching should be done in the home and place of worship. Too many of OUR lawmakers have forgotten that and it is time religious organizations who ignore the law have their tax-free status taken away and are taxed back for all the property and wealth OUR largess has allowed them since the U.S. Constitution was signed.
3
You are confusing teaching 'about' religion with teaching religion. Only the latter is associated with 'the establishment of religion' clause.
Regardless of one's beliefs or non-beliefs, having a basic understanding of what the world's major religions are about makes for a better-informed citizen able to understand and interact with a broader swath of society.
Regardless of one's beliefs or non-beliefs, having a basic understanding of what the world's major religions are about makes for a better-informed citizen able to understand and interact with a broader swath of society.
3
I'm an atheist and fervent supporter of church/state separation, but I totally disagree that education about religion should be omitted. (That's not the same thing as religious education.) More knowledge! Not less!
4
Well, that is your world view that you obviously would impose with intolerance upon those who have religious world views.
Without objective morality, e.g. God's will, I cannot see that you have any basis to claim that your view is better than those recommendation made.
On what basis would you argue that your viewpoint is superior? Certainly not objective truth, which is the domain of religion.
Your argument appears to be that the objective truth is that there is no objective truth, so it should not be taught. Circular logic, if ever...
Without objective morality, e.g. God's will, I cannot see that you have any basis to claim that your view is better than those recommendation made.
On what basis would you argue that your viewpoint is superior? Certainly not objective truth, which is the domain of religion.
Your argument appears to be that the objective truth is that there is no objective truth, so it should not be taught. Circular logic, if ever...
Religion always has been and always will be the worst invention of men. To not understand that, is to allow the possibility of the men of god to steal your wealth and power.
4
I think it was H. L. Mencken who said that religion began when the first conman met the first fool. At the dawn of the development of agriculture and settled communities, the former hunter-gatherers were no longer needed to be jacks of all trades. Specialization became a necessity in the larger communities. So, some became weapons makers, other became hunters, others gathered fruits and berries, others prepared living quarters or cooked the meals, while still others tended the children. The advent of the original medicine man, IMHO, began when some of the smarter villagers discovered a job that didn't involve any actual hard physical work, yet would lead the rest of the village to respect them (and feed, clothe, and house them). And so it continues...
1
Kristof writes: "...Islamic clerics...cite religion as a reason to hack off the genitals of young girls." Female circumcision is practiced among both Christians and Muslims in Egypt and Ethiopia. Religion has little to do with it. Rather it is cultural.
2
While Jesus was a Jew until his death, he said "And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". That church Jesus set up was the Catholic Church in Rome, which still exists today, currently led by Pope Francis. (Of course, if Jesus were alive today, Francis would happily step aside). I guess that makes Jesus Catholic.
1
Some, of course, don't believe in the succession of Linus to Peter, and that instead the body of the church fell away in a general apostasy (mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, among several scriptures) after all the apostles were dead and no new ones were elected. Evidence of the apostasy was already evident Galatians 1:6-10 and Revelations 2. The process was complete after Constantine co-opted the church, speeding the incorporation of Greco-Roman culture/mysteries into the Church, and forced the clergy to vote on church doctrines in the Council of Nicaea (as if man could establish the principles of the gospel through majority will). Those Christians who believe that is was necessary that there be a "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21) after this apostasy are generally referred to as "Restorationists."
Jesus belongs to everyone. It doesn't matter what we think he "is".
1
No, it was not Peter, a fellow "Jewish Christian," but Paul (Saul of Tarsus) who made the decision that he could expand the size of the church if he de-emphasized the Jewish nature of the new sect and broaden its appeal to include "gentiles," thus beginning, along with John, a second-century gospel writer the move to separate the "Catholic" church from Judaism.
Since Christianity is primarily characterized as the worship of Jesus's teachings and the seeking of salvation by recognizing Jesus as your personal savior, do you really think a returned Jesus would worship himself and supplicate himself for his own salvation? No, whatever sect of Judaism Jesus followed - remember, he was at a Pesach (Passover) celebration at the "Last Supper" the one thing we can be sure of is that he would not have become his own follower and worshiper.
Anyway, very little in the rituals of the Catholic Church comes from the "quotations" reportedly from Jesus in the NT. Most of the rituals and practices were created long after his death.
Since Christianity is primarily characterized as the worship of Jesus's teachings and the seeking of salvation by recognizing Jesus as your personal savior, do you really think a returned Jesus would worship himself and supplicate himself for his own salvation? No, whatever sect of Judaism Jesus followed - remember, he was at a Pesach (Passover) celebration at the "Last Supper" the one thing we can be sure of is that he would not have become his own follower and worshiper.
Anyway, very little in the rituals of the Catholic Church comes from the "quotations" reportedly from Jesus in the NT. Most of the rituals and practices were created long after his death.
2
"on average religious Americans donate far more to charity and volunteer more than secular Americans do" Yes, of course they do. But then the goal is as much proselytizing as doing good for goodness' sake. Secularists see that latter role as one of the functions of good government. Christians prefer charity to taxes because it serves to strengthen the church by allowing the targeting of aid to pet causes - including politics - and usually includes proselytizing, which taxes never do. The 1913 legislation exempting churches from federal taxation has been the biggest mistake this society ever made, bringing church money into politics, despite questionable legality, and has fed into the theocratic intentions of political parties since that time. Public funding does not discriminate, except by need. Private funding does.
8
He was born a Jew and died a Jew. Christianity is the creation of Paul who appropriated the man's life, added his own theological twist and built the new religion by seeking converts among the gentiles.
4
Paul was actually Saul of Tarsus, who never had any contact with Jesus and his disciples. Instead, riding a donkey to Damascus, Saul fell to the ground and experienced a series of vivid hallucinations. They were the force that converted him to religion. Of course, modern experts on how the brain works instantly recognize the description of Saul's behavior and hallucinations as a classical Temporal Lobe Seizure. Of that Paul's church was born.
Besides, trying to validate any god or religion by quoting from the religion's "holy book" supposedly at least dictated by the religion's god is a circular argument, and therefore null and void.
"How do I know there is a God?" "Because the Bible tells me so."
How do I know the Bible is correct?" "Because God inspired the Bible."
This is an example of the logical fallacy known as circular reasoning, where the conclusion is among its premises. You already have to accept the conclusion in advance before you can claim the premises are true. Otherwise, it's just a solipsistic snake swallowing its own tail.
No more biblical references as "proofs" please.
Besides, trying to validate any god or religion by quoting from the religion's "holy book" supposedly at least dictated by the religion's god is a circular argument, and therefore null and void.
"How do I know there is a God?" "Because the Bible tells me so."
How do I know the Bible is correct?" "Because God inspired the Bible."
This is an example of the logical fallacy known as circular reasoning, where the conclusion is among its premises. You already have to accept the conclusion in advance before you can claim the premises are true. Otherwise, it's just a solipsistic snake swallowing its own tail.
No more biblical references as "proofs" please.
5
Always amusing when non-religious people babble about religion. Folks: You think Christians are obsessed with sin. You are wrong. When we talk about sin it's because sins are a _sign_ of something. It's not the sins themselves that are important. It's the something. If you don't understand this very basic, very fundamental, Sunday School bit of doctrine, then you are so ignorant of Christianity that you should keep your mouth shut.
And, btw, there are no _serious_ doubts that Jesus and Mohammad existed. The non-religious have their clowns too.
And, btw, there are no _serious_ doubts that Jesus and Mohammad existed. The non-religious have their clowns too.
3
Yeah, but millions of non-religious people haven't spent millenia killing and torturing each other over who has the funnier clown.
BTW, there was a recent poll (by the U of MD PIPA group, IIRC), quizzing people on their own and others religious tenets. The least informed, particularly about their own religious teachings, were the self-described Catholics. The best informed about all forms of Christianity, as well as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and others, were the atheists.
BTW, there was a recent poll (by the U of MD PIPA group, IIRC), quizzing people on their own and others religious tenets. The least informed, particularly about their own religious teachings, were the self-described Catholics. The best informed about all forms of Christianity, as well as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and others, were the atheists.
3
Nice, friendly, kindly reaching out to everybody ... typical religious outreach. (Not.)
3
We crucify Jesus and what he stood for every day when we practice cruelty, selfishness, and self justification. The smallest act of kindness expressed is infinitely more powerful than the sanctimoniousness that pervades most of our lives today. There are still people who work hard to make their lives about compassion and understanding. They are our only rays of hope in a darkening world. They are also the only ones who truly ever see the face of God.
10
Please be more specific. Which god? There are (and have been) of course so many gods in man's current and historic world.
1
Jesus was killed by organized religion and corrupt politicians for telling the Truth. Just who thinks he wouldn't be strung up again by the same people if he were here today, aided by a lapdog press of course. God isn't found in a building, or a book, God is found in every ounce of Love you can muster. The true revelation of God comes from within you, your Soul, the Holy Ghost. There is one caveat though, in order to achieve this Holy union, God must be the most important thing to you, which rules out 99% of the population, including organized religion. God is a Spirit, that is the essence of what we are. It has never been flesh and blood that saves you, it is the realization of who you are that saves you. We are a chip off the old block, or we are the walking dead, who deny the Soul, or who have willingly traded this gift for pleasure, riches, etc. This is the Living Kingdom of God, where many are called, and few are chosen. The only one who can save you, is you. All the help you need is within you, if you can get past your own mind. The beginning of wisdom is embracing your own soul. The Holy Ghost is the magic within us that ties us all together, this is the God experience. Seek with all your Heart, make God the priority above all else, you will not be disappointed.
That is the one and only guarantee that always comes true, what are you waiting for?
That is the one and only guarantee that always comes true, what are you waiting for?
4
If you believe the NT, Jesus was killed because he was a reformer and disruptive rebel. You can assign values like "Truth" to what he his purported to have said, but it reminds me of an old riddle:
Question: How many legs does a tiger have if you call his tail a leg?
Answer: Four - calling his tail a leg doesn't make it so.
And so it is with proclaiming "Truth" with no evidence outside of the words of the supposed Truth.
Question: How many legs does a tiger have if you call his tail a leg?
Answer: Four - calling his tail a leg doesn't make it so.
And so it is with proclaiming "Truth" with no evidence outside of the words of the supposed Truth.
2
If we are to believe the gospels, then Jesus appears to be a reformer. He was there to reform the Jewish faith -so no doubt he would have stayed a Jew. If we are to believe the gospels that Jesus was humble, he probably would be appalled that a new religion was founded in his name. If we believe that Jesus was loving - he would probably disavow all the various versions of Christianity that have done awful things in his name -to other people. He would be shocked at how many of these Christian entities hold oppressive views towards women and members of the LGBT community. Jesus might look around to see what the other options were - but would be equally horrified as to how the other major religions also treat people. In summary, Jesus would be an agnotic
71
Didn't Holden Caulfield in "Cather in the Rye" say if 'Christ could see Christmas he'd puke'? How right he was. We have debased Jesus by turning the gifts from the Magi into a frenzy of materialism and cute little ornaments. When I first heard the day after Thanksgiving called "black Friday" I thought it was to encourage thoughts that were anti-materialistic. How wrong could I be. It was an economic term for retail going into the biggest profit time of the year. It did not mean staying away, but it meant standing in line in the dark so you might get a cheaper TV. To me Christianity means a humble, giving in the truest sense, way of living your life. Got to run now and get ready for church even though I go there with doubts and questions. It is Jesus' parables that mean the most to me. I don't believe he was a god, but a man preaching goodness and mercy. Mohammed felt the same way.
4
It appears there are the usual confused and ignorant commenters chiming in on this one. Jesus was a Rabbinical Jew from the most religious part of the country in his time, the Galillee. Were he alive today he would be an Orthodox Jew following halachic.
3
I believe the man named Jesus lived by the Golden Rule - Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You. Very simple really.
3
The Golden Rule at his time was more on the lines of, "That which is evil unto thee, do not do unto others."
The King James crowd preferred a different interpretation, making the slogan proactive.
The King James crowd preferred a different interpretation, making the slogan proactive.
2
The Jewish version of the Golden Rule is a negative: "Do not do to others what you would find abhorrent if it were done to you."
1
For many, perhaps most, religion is simply a political logo. "I'm a conservative, therefore my Christianity is conservative." It's how the South justified slavery. Whether you're Christian or Muslim, it has nothing to do with what your religion teaches but how you can distort it to serve your prejudices, hatreds, anti-science ignorance, and intolerance. Jesus would be a none.
7
I am curious as to how the writer knows that religious Americans donate far more to charity and volunteer more than secular Americans do? I have never been asked wheather I'm religious or not when I volunteer or donate.
10
Multiple surveys from multiple polling sources have shown that for several years, if not decades.
Of course there are statistical outliers in any survey. But, I've never been asked that poll question either.
Of course there are statistical outliers in any survey. But, I've never been asked that poll question either.
Yes, and some other people think 'paying the right amount of taxes' is a donation as well.
4
If you take away donations to their own church you would probably find they paid less than the "non-religious".
3
An apt article to coincide with the canonization of Mother Teresa. But the headline, which may have been written by a copy editor, poses an easily answered question. Jesus was a Jew, and very much spoke to the Jewish culture of his times. He word was then taken by others, and often used to persecute Jews. I think a more appropriate headline would be: "Would Jesus have approved?"
3
Of all of Mankind's inventions, religion has caused the most suffering. Even excluding the millions who have suffered from wars fought in the name of religions this would still be true. The superstitions, guilt and unrealistic expectations taught by parents to their children as the word of God create more suffering than relief. Mr. Kristof ends with examples of humanitarian self sacrifice and concludes, "Now, that is religion." No that is humanitarian self sacrifice and can be achieved without religion. Religion is based on faith which by definition is void of reason. Humanity must now take responsibility for its own actions. Belief in God only enables us to avoid responsibility for our own newly achieved god like powers.
13
I am always amazed by my friend - I'll call him Bill - who attends the church where his father was the preacher - now retired. It is a small and zealous Christian church in a small Florida town - his church has a certain set of very specific beliefs that, if you do not share in totality, you will be condemned by God to burn and suffer terrible pain - for all eternity! They show me great compassion, knowing where I am headed.
I am constantly amazed that he honestly believes that he was so fortunate as to think that of all the world, all the homes and families into which he could have been born, he was born into the one family, in the one town, that went to the one church that had the one set of beliefs that was honestly, truly "right" and that God himself ordained as being "right" and that of all the rest of the people on the face of the earth - God would make them suffer for all eternity because we were so wrong.
I've asked him, if he happened to be born into another family place or faith does he think he would have found his way to this one True congregation - or have burned in hell. He answers in terms of God's will and having "faith".
In all other regards Bill is a rational man - successful - smart - funny - although he his a Trump supporter.
I think of all the people around the world - all the religions - all the people that think exactly like Bill. And I just can't help but think of religion as a divider, not a uniter.
I am constantly amazed that he honestly believes that he was so fortunate as to think that of all the world, all the homes and families into which he could have been born, he was born into the one family, in the one town, that went to the one church that had the one set of beliefs that was honestly, truly "right" and that God himself ordained as being "right" and that of all the rest of the people on the face of the earth - God would make them suffer for all eternity because we were so wrong.
I've asked him, if he happened to be born into another family place or faith does he think he would have found his way to this one True congregation - or have burned in hell. He answers in terms of God's will and having "faith".
In all other regards Bill is a rational man - successful - smart - funny - although he his a Trump supporter.
I think of all the people around the world - all the religions - all the people that think exactly like Bill. And I just can't help but think of religion as a divider, not a uniter.
16
What religion would Jesus belong to? Unitarian-Universalist.
5
The problem is that the teachings of Jesus cannot easily be lifted from the rest of the scriptures, particularly by believers. Which means we are saddled with the misogynistic and creepy writings of Paul, and the book of Revelation. To say nothing of the barbarism of the Pentateuch.
Presumably any "true" Christian following Jesus' message would give up all his or her possessions, "give no thought for the morrow," take up a cross, and spend all of their waking moments attempting to preach the gospel.
This entire article is one giant exercise in the no-true-scotsman fallacy. In your last paragraph: people who do good things because of religion, "Now that's religion!" But when people try to ban abortion, force 50% of their population (woman) to live in cloth bags, or vote for Donald Trump, then that's just religion providing an EXCUSE to do bad things a person wants to do for other reasons.
Ask yourself this, Nick: Is it better to do a good thing because of its intrinsic goodness, or because you believe that god will reward you? Religion gives people an excuse to do good deeds for bad reasons, when good reasons actually are available.
Presumably any "true" Christian following Jesus' message would give up all his or her possessions, "give no thought for the morrow," take up a cross, and spend all of their waking moments attempting to preach the gospel.
This entire article is one giant exercise in the no-true-scotsman fallacy. In your last paragraph: people who do good things because of religion, "Now that's religion!" But when people try to ban abortion, force 50% of their population (woman) to live in cloth bags, or vote for Donald Trump, then that's just religion providing an EXCUSE to do bad things a person wants to do for other reasons.
Ask yourself this, Nick: Is it better to do a good thing because of its intrinsic goodness, or because you believe that god will reward you? Religion gives people an excuse to do good deeds for bad reasons, when good reasons actually are available.
11
Is Christianity really based on the teachings of Jesus? For that matter, is religion really about any particular god?
Religion seems to be more social than holy to me. Similar people lump together and adjust their interpretation of their faith to their personal viewpoints. For example, headlines everywhere announced that Donald Trump would be campaigning at a black church. What religion is black?
Religion seems to be more social than holy to me. Similar people lump together and adjust their interpretation of their faith to their personal viewpoints. For example, headlines everywhere announced that Donald Trump would be campaigning at a black church. What religion is black?
5
Note that it is not the religion that acts in an inappropriate way but the follower of the religion who fails to adhere to their faith's tenets.
That is not the fault of the religion but the fault of the follower.
And all followers are human and subject to fault.
That is not the fault of the religion but the fault of the follower.
And all followers are human and subject to fault.
If the New Testament began and ended with the four Gospels (which, other than one phrase in the book of Acts, contain the only quotes directly attributed to Jesus), I daresay that Jesus' basic teachings to love one another and to help our fellow men, would be the central tenants of modern Christianity, a philosophy for living rather than a hodgepodge of mythologies and mystical rituals that obscure the true message.
Instead we have a rather corrupted version of Jesus and for this I lay the blame firmly at the feet of Paul, who virtually created his own vision of Christianity. Most of the New Testament is made up of Paul's writings or writings of unknown provenance that are attributed to him. Christians seem to be more interested in shaping their beliefs from Paul's words or from those of the Old Testament. These do not accurately reflect the teachings of Jesus.
Instead we have a rather corrupted version of Jesus and for this I lay the blame firmly at the feet of Paul, who virtually created his own vision of Christianity. Most of the New Testament is made up of Paul's writings or writings of unknown provenance that are attributed to him. Christians seem to be more interested in shaping their beliefs from Paul's words or from those of the Old Testament. These do not accurately reflect the teachings of Jesus.
11
I agree. Paul never really knew Jesus and its shows in his writings.
1
Good points. Of course, Paul (genuine Paul) is earlier than the Gospels, and shows no familiarity with their content. If we had only the letters of Paul, we wouldn't know what Jesus preached . . . or even that he preached at all. Part of the problem of course is that it's obvious that Paul most emphatically expected Jesus's parousia at any moment, so that "doctrine" basically consisted of hanging on, and staying out of sin, until the coming of the Celestial Kingdom.
As for Acts, the Paul of Acts and the Paul of the epistles never met one another.
As for Acts, the Paul of Acts and the Paul of the epistles never met one another.
Jesus would do the same all over again: Include Everybody.
I attended Catholic schools until I finished high school in 1972. I still remember praying in Latin.
As a Catholic today, I do attend Mass Sundays and try to follow the "love others as you love yourself". At times, It is not easy. I keep trying.
I attended Catholic schools until I finished high school in 1972. I still remember praying in Latin.
As a Catholic today, I do attend Mass Sundays and try to follow the "love others as you love yourself". At times, It is not easy. I keep trying.
11
" I do like your Christ. But I don't like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ".
Mahatma Gandhi
If Jesus were to come back in disguise and run for president to heal this country from all that ails it, he would be accused by all of our oh-so-very-good Republican Christians of being an an outright pinko due to his teachings, asked for his birth certificate and deported with all 'them brownies' to where he came from.
Mahatma Gandhi
If Jesus were to come back in disguise and run for president to heal this country from all that ails it, he would be accused by all of our oh-so-very-good Republican Christians of being an an outright pinko due to his teachings, asked for his birth certificate and deported with all 'them brownies' to where he came from.
30
Spirituality is an exercise. The more you do it the better you become. Born a Catholic I was shamed away from being spiritual. In our household we secretly practiced spirituality so the Catholic church wouldn't condemn us.
1
God and Gods and Goddesses are human constructs to appease that which they can not explain or understand for themselves.
Jesus, if such a person really exited, would probably be a Jew-Buh in todays world.
Just like the Buddha, it seems doubtful either set out to create a new religion.
Neither it appears had that kind of ego and hubris.
They were just doing their thing, as we say. spreading the love.
Jesus, if such a person really exited, would probably be a Jew-Buh in todays world.
Just like the Buddha, it seems doubtful either set out to create a new religion.
Neither it appears had that kind of ego and hubris.
They were just doing their thing, as we say. spreading the love.
If Christ were alive today he would most likely be a Tibetan or Vietnamese Buddhist. He would fully reject what Catholicism and Christianity have become -- just as he rejected the distortions of Judaism taught by the Pharisees.
5
If Jesus today, were anything but a political socialist, it would a) be very disappointing, b) confirm my atheism.
3
I have no clue what religion Jesus might belong to but I if he were to walk the earth today he would disgusted by what people do in his name.
6
Sorry, but organized religions are made by men with the purpose of satisfying the needs and wants of those men. One primary want is power, so their religion says they speak for god (is there a higher source of authority). It is laughable that Kristof speaks of a religion's founder, me thinks he got it wrong!
By the way when I say men I do mean the male of the species.
By the way when I say men I do mean the male of the species.
2
It's hard to improve on Alfred Loisy's summation: "Jesus heralded the coming of a Celestial Kingdom. What arrived was the Church".
2
Unlike the "followers" of Twitter or Facebook users, religious and political leaders enforce their ideas by incorporating them into religion so they cannot be questioned by their "followers" regardless of the facts - since they cannot persuade with facts or common sense. Indeed, many religious beliefs are absolutist - which brings into question which one is right when absolute beliefs differ?
I am more in awe of those who do good without the expectation of a reward in an unproven everlasting afterlife.
I am more in awe of those who do good without the expectation of a reward in an unproven everlasting afterlife.
3
Loved Nick's closing paragraph today! It's not about what religion you belong to. It's about how we serve others in need.
You can be an atheist and lovingly care for the poor. Even St. Mother Theresa had bouts of wondering about her faith, but it never stopped her from serving the poor.
You can have religion and leave a bloodied, beaten man lying in a ditch. The question isn't "What Religion Would Jesus Belong To?" It's "What Would Jesus Do?"
Thanks for a fine column, Nick. Yes, it's a now-sainted nun and a Sudanese missionary doctor who have shown us what a religious calling means: "Love ye one another."
You can be an atheist and lovingly care for the poor. Even St. Mother Theresa had bouts of wondering about her faith, but it never stopped her from serving the poor.
You can have religion and leave a bloodied, beaten man lying in a ditch. The question isn't "What Religion Would Jesus Belong To?" It's "What Would Jesus Do?"
Thanks for a fine column, Nick. Yes, it's a now-sainted nun and a Sudanese missionary doctor who have shown us what a religious calling means: "Love ye one another."
85
Are we talking about the very religious and generous nation called the United States of America that ranks 19th in poverty reducing foreign aid (Oxfam). This is half of what the UK contributes. Development assistance to poor or developing countries as a % of GDP? The score is 1.4 for Sweden, UK .7%. The US? .17% (OECD). Why do Americans thing their country is so generous? I don't get it! Someone help me!
Interestingly, please note that Sweden is a socialist country where the welfare of people is a priority. As food for thought, if you are a Christian, how could you be a capitalist? If Jesus were to reappear, would the Establishment categorize him as a dangerous radical Socialist, or even a Communist?
More food for thought. The religious people in the US donating more than secular Americans, Is their donating guilt or generosity?
Interestingly, please note that Sweden is a socialist country where the welfare of people is a priority. As food for thought, if you are a Christian, how could you be a capitalist? If Jesus were to reappear, would the Establishment categorize him as a dangerous radical Socialist, or even a Communist?
More food for thought. The religious people in the US donating more than secular Americans, Is their donating guilt or generosity?
7
I am concerned about studies that show those who are "religious" donate more to charity than those who are "none". It is not reasonable to include the donation of the cost of membership in religions which support the often princely lifestyles of the clergy or imposing facilities as a charitable donation. I realize the political pressure on the IRS to count this type of donation as deductible, but true charitable donations actually help people.
8
Ditto the issue of parsing out true humanitarian charitable donations from those "charitable donations" that fund "My Name on a Building".
2
He would still be a Jew if he actually existed. Out of one idea we now have thousands of different religions. The sainthood of mother Teresa shows what we all know. Give the crowd what it wants.
3
If we take care of one another in this life, then the next life will take care of itself.
And PS, Christianity apparently had no problem with slavery until the 19th Century. It was not until Renaissance Humanism evolved into abolitionism that Christians began to see the evil of servitude.
And PS, Christianity apparently had no problem with slavery until the 19th Century. It was not until Renaissance Humanism evolved into abolitionism that Christians began to see the evil of servitude.
Actually, there have been many radical changes to Christianity since the mid-19th century. Besides the change in its stance to slavery, women's rights have greatly advanced within the church and interfaith outreach has increased dramatically. Amazingly, all these changes in Christianity have occurred after the advent of the Baha'i Faith in the mid 19th century and its teachings. Baha'u'llah, the Founder of the Baha'i Faith, declared as the Messenger for our era in 1863, wrote the equivalent of 60 Christian Bibles, calling us to recognize the oneness of humanity. He urged us to eliminate all prejudices, such as racism, sexism, nationalism and religious prejudice. He abolished slavery and taught that, in this modern world where people can read the Holy Scriptures for themselves, there is no more need for clergy.
"How shocked I was to find, on growing up, that the vast majority of those who loudly proclaimed themselves "Christians" rejected the fundamental teachings of the man they claimed as God."
The man they claimed as God? Jesus Himself said He was God. John 10:30 reads:
"The Father and I are one."
Jesus also said, "I am the way, the Truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me."
My only point is that unless one believes in the intrinsic divinity of Jesus and that His sacrifice on the cross was as an atonement for all of Man's sin, Jesus must be seen as lunatic and His words mere platitudes, no more meaningful than the words written on a subway wall....
The man they claimed as God? Jesus Himself said He was God. John 10:30 reads:
"The Father and I are one."
Jesus also said, "I am the way, the Truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me."
My only point is that unless one believes in the intrinsic divinity of Jesus and that His sacrifice on the cross was as an atonement for all of Man's sin, Jesus must be seen as lunatic and His words mere platitudes, no more meaningful than the words written on a subway wall....
3
The tragedy of this subject is that Christianity should never have been about preening and pointing. That's the byproduct of imperfect people using a perfect savior for their own ends.
Christianity is, and always should be, about Jesus. This is God, whose love is so boundless that he crossed the boundaries of space, time, and materiality to suffer with and for his creation, restoring the bond with his people that had long been broken. Along the way, he showed us how to live and what matters in life by loving, serving, and sometimes fighting.
But even in this, we can't exchange Jesus' actions for the man himself. Christianity is about the Christ, not just his acts and patterns of behavior, and until Christianity recovers that notion, anything it does will ultimately be self-serving. If you want to see and understand Christianity the way it should be, contemplate Jesus.
Christianity is, and always should be, about Jesus. This is God, whose love is so boundless that he crossed the boundaries of space, time, and materiality to suffer with and for his creation, restoring the bond with his people that had long been broken. Along the way, he showed us how to live and what matters in life by loving, serving, and sometimes fighting.
But even in this, we can't exchange Jesus' actions for the man himself. Christianity is about the Christ, not just his acts and patterns of behavior, and until Christianity recovers that notion, anything it does will ultimately be self-serving. If you want to see and understand Christianity the way it should be, contemplate Jesus.
3
Jesus would probably be agnostic. Organized religion has become a means by which structural and 'moral' power is concentrated at the top of large bureaucratic organizations with every to gain from raising fear of the of the 'other' or non-believers.
When you critically examine the fruit of the labours of modern religion you find that virtually every major conflict we have faced in the last five centuries traces itself back to organized religion.
Humanity deserves better. I'll take a humanistic approach to life any day over dogma and being lectured to by thought police.
When you critically examine the fruit of the labours of modern religion you find that virtually every major conflict we have faced in the last five centuries traces itself back to organized religion.
Humanity deserves better. I'll take a humanistic approach to life any day over dogma and being lectured to by thought police.
3
Clearly he'd be a Pastafarian. (And celebrate Festivus.)
10
Years ago I was having lunch on Good Friday with a Catholic coworker who grew up in France. I was discussing how The Last Supper was a Passover Seder when she looked at me very puzzled. I said,"You do know that Christ was Jewish, don't you?" Her answer: "They don't teach us that in France."
3
Not surprising given her French Catholic heritage (assuming she's older than 30 or so).
Here's what I think. Despite the fact that many seem to want to make Jesus in their own image, the bedrock of belief demands some discipline, some willingness to serve others. It is the message, and how we abide by it, that is important. Jesus is the embodiment of love, forgiveness and giving, selflessness - not for a reward of any kind - but for a happier and more significant life. So following those precepts, while sometimes arduous, contributes to the betterment of humanity.
4
Sounds like the Buddha.
1
There has probably been more written about Jesus than about anyone who ever lived although almost none of what has been written is supported by the historical record.
What is supported by the historical record is that Jesus was tortured and put to death by the religious and civil authorities of the day for his advocacy of, dare we say, "the ninety-nine percent," an advocacy the religious and civil authorities quite rightly viewed as threatening.
Legend has it that the Emperor Constantine was visited in his tent by Jesus the night before a major battle, rode out the to victory the following day and joined the Jesus movement in gratitude. I have always suspected that if Constantine rode out the following day to slash and slaughter his visitor must have been someone other than Jesus.
We do well to remember where and when the Christian religion was formalized, which was at the Emperor Constantine's summer palace in 325 CE. While legend has it that Constantine had converted to Christianity, I think it more likely that Constantine converted Christianity to Roman Imperialism and that he religious and civil authorities were aligned once more in bending Jesus to their own self-interest.
The religious and civil authorities. Get the irony?
What is supported by the historical record is that Jesus was tortured and put to death by the religious and civil authorities of the day for his advocacy of, dare we say, "the ninety-nine percent," an advocacy the religious and civil authorities quite rightly viewed as threatening.
Legend has it that the Emperor Constantine was visited in his tent by Jesus the night before a major battle, rode out the to victory the following day and joined the Jesus movement in gratitude. I have always suspected that if Constantine rode out the following day to slash and slaughter his visitor must have been someone other than Jesus.
We do well to remember where and when the Christian religion was formalized, which was at the Emperor Constantine's summer palace in 325 CE. While legend has it that Constantine had converted to Christianity, I think it more likely that Constantine converted Christianity to Roman Imperialism and that he religious and civil authorities were aligned once more in bending Jesus to their own self-interest.
The religious and civil authorities. Get the irony?
7
Yeah, the New Pope is fresh air for this un-churchy guy.we need more examples like him.
one encouraging note for me. In driving through the country 2 decades ago, the Christian radio seem filled with hate and war.
the new generation of talk shows seems more into Christ's message of love and redemption.
one encouraging note for me. In driving through the country 2 decades ago, the Christian radio seem filled with hate and war.
the new generation of talk shows seems more into Christ's message of love and redemption.
To quote Katha Pollitt:
When you consider that God could have commanded anything he wanted--anything!--the Ten [Commandments] have got to rank as one of the great missed moral opportunities of all time. How different history would have been had he clearly and unmistakably forbidden war, tyranny, taking over other people's countries, slavery, exploitation of workers, cruelty to children, wife-beating, stoning, treating women--or anyone--as chattel or inferior beings.
When you consider that God could have commanded anything he wanted--anything!--the Ten [Commandments] have got to rank as one of the great missed moral opportunities of all time. How different history would have been had he clearly and unmistakably forbidden war, tyranny, taking over other people's countries, slavery, exploitation of workers, cruelty to children, wife-beating, stoning, treating women--or anyone--as chattel or inferior beings.
18
A proper understanding of the Ten Commandments reveals to man that these atrocities are forbidden.
Christianity is suppose to be the religion that represents the teachings of Jesus. But the modern church has forgotten that "Great Commission" which is "To go into the world and preach the gospel, baptizing in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit." This is the challenge and instructions that Jesus has given his church. But today's church are more into State Affairs than Church Affairs. Today's church has totally forgotten the poor and cater more to the rich, and is more worried about 501c3 tax breaks. So what religion would Jesus belong to? I believe that he would create a new one...
3
Jesus doesn't need a religion. He is one. He calls it: "love ye one another."
3
One constant for all humans is to be treated with kindness. Practice "Do unto others ..." to improve life on earth, including your own.
"Love thy neighbor" requires no travel or money. Everyone can do it.
To my knowledge that was the central message of the prophets' teaching.
"Love thy neighbor" requires no travel or money. Everyone can do it.
To my knowledge that was the central message of the prophets' teaching.
4
In a sarcastic mood, if someone asks me if I am a Christian, I might say "No, I am a Southern Baptist".
8
Jesus was trying to explain how to be authentically Jewish. Martin Luther was trying to reform his Catholic faith. Their followers twisted the message and eventually missed the point completely.
Organized religion is like the children's game of "whisper down the lane." By the time the message gets passed from its origin to the last child, it is unrecognizable.
Organized religion is like the children's game of "whisper down the lane." By the time the message gets passed from its origin to the last child, it is unrecognizable.
17
You seem confused as to the centerpiece of religion i.e., the worship of God versus one of the manifestations of that belief system i.e., improved human interrelationships. Maybe that is why secularists have a problem understanding God. Ofter, they believe that God exists to serve man. Maybe God believes this is backwards.
4
If God does not exist to serve man, why keep man around after the mess we have made of his creation? Secularists, and by secularists you seem to mean atheists, have no problem understanding God, some simply do not respect a god that would oversee such human wreckage. Why worship an all powerful entity that allows such injustice and suffering? If He/It/Her can fix us then please do so. God knows we cannot help ourselves so animalistic in nature are we.
However, many secularists believe in God, but also believe that government is devised by men to deal with the affairs of men, and that claims of divination of purpose and intent by humans are usually self-serving and thus susceptible to human corruption.
However, many secularists believe in God, but also believe that government is devised by men to deal with the affairs of men, and that claims of divination of purpose and intent by humans are usually self-serving and thus susceptible to human corruption.
1
There has from the time of the death of Jesus to the present, always been small groups that worked to stay true to the teachings of the New Testament Bible. More often, also severely persecuted by the "Christian Establishment". Even today, these groups histories can be found under the "Heretics" sections of history books.
Perfect column for a Sunday morning. When I think about religion I recall Deepak Chopra's statement "God gave us spirituality, the Devil gave us religion".
Spirituality can be experienced in simple ways as in, say, observing nature. Trying to understand, for example, how a small wren can know how to build a nest and have a family. May be nothing more than a biological imperative to perpetuate the species, but it is beautiful to watch.
I grew up exposed to Christianity's 'old time religion' on a daily basis. In my later years, after some readings, I came to believe that Jesus would not have condoned or encouraged churches or priests as being necessary to be truly 'religious'. People are people. Christians, Jews, and Muslims that I have known to be truly religious practice a simple 'good' life as was preached by Jesus and others. They do not need a Vatican, a cross, a religious doctrine of any kind to be good people.
Jesus would still be Jewish.
Spirituality can be experienced in simple ways as in, say, observing nature. Trying to understand, for example, how a small wren can know how to build a nest and have a family. May be nothing more than a biological imperative to perpetuate the species, but it is beautiful to watch.
I grew up exposed to Christianity's 'old time religion' on a daily basis. In my later years, after some readings, I came to believe that Jesus would not have condoned or encouraged churches or priests as being necessary to be truly 'religious'. People are people. Christians, Jews, and Muslims that I have known to be truly religious practice a simple 'good' life as was preached by Jesus and others. They do not need a Vatican, a cross, a religious doctrine of any kind to be good people.
Jesus would still be Jewish.
7
It is amazing how you and so many others neglect to mention that Jesus was a Jew. He was a radical, mystical Jew who eschewed Jewish orthodoxy and wanted to show what change would look like for humanity by personal example. Not for a second did he think of himself as a Christian. That was all the invention of those who came after him.
30
Perhaps Jesus would not have been focused on labels like "Jewish" or "Christian," unlike you.
I doubt he would belong to any religion. More likely he would be interested in the teachings of Buddha, developing compassion, tolerance, self-awareness, self-reflection and responsibility to self and others. Plus some of the nature worship religions, considering how we have so completely trashed this planet, nature, other species and even our own. He did not seem like an arrogant or judgemental man who insisted on rules that control and limit the positive development of the individual and our species, encouraged destruction of nature and condemned (and to death) others who thought differently.
4
I think its interesting that Kristof follows a paragraph about how most American Christians are essentially illiterate when it comes to the foundations of their faith, and then pivots to the idea that they should "rediscover their faith not as a problematic system of beliefs but as a just and generous way of life."
It sounds like the actual problem is that religion has become entirely emotion-based and content-free, and so many of those emotions are self-serving. Maybe by challenging Christians to look at their religion and gain some actual knowledge about it they might become better people. Smarter is better.
It sounds like the actual problem is that religion has become entirely emotion-based and content-free, and so many of those emotions are self-serving. Maybe by challenging Christians to look at their religion and gain some actual knowledge about it they might become better people. Smarter is better.
14
I agree with Kristof's observations in this editorial. However I'd like to respond to "some guy's " comment on religious illiteracy.
Regardless of what one's actual beliefs are, religious illiteracy is cultural illiteracy. In grade school we are ( or used to be!) introduced to extremely complex ideas via two specific sources; Greek & Roman mythology in school and Bible stories in Sunday school and church. These "simple" stories gave the Western world a common subtext as a vehicle for literature, music, and almost all our visual art. In terms of abstraction and other expressions of modern art it has been, however unrecognized, the all important point of departure. Without it we are profoundly ignorant in important ways and all the education and factual knowledge available cannot replace it.
As China discovered in their Cultural Revolution, erasing their previous culture and religious references was actually the destruction of the history of Chinese thought. They now return to some respect for those aspects of their past,--but much has been lost.
Regardless of what one's actual beliefs are, religious illiteracy is cultural illiteracy. In grade school we are ( or used to be!) introduced to extremely complex ideas via two specific sources; Greek & Roman mythology in school and Bible stories in Sunday school and church. These "simple" stories gave the Western world a common subtext as a vehicle for literature, music, and almost all our visual art. In terms of abstraction and other expressions of modern art it has been, however unrecognized, the all important point of departure. Without it we are profoundly ignorant in important ways and all the education and factual knowledge available cannot replace it.
As China discovered in their Cultural Revolution, erasing their previous culture and religious references was actually the destruction of the history of Chinese thought. They now return to some respect for those aspects of their past,--but much has been lost.
2
Jesus was a Jew. His last name was not Christ. Christianity today is largely based on Paul's teachings and writings.
21
We might guess in that he was a Rabbi who told jokes. Good ones.
6
He would be a Jain. "It prescribes non-violence and love towards all living beings."
4
If Jesus were to come back and see what is done in his name, he would tell the lot of them to sod off and head to the nearest synagogue for a minyan. He was Jewish, after all.
11
Perhaps Mr. Kristof should sample some of the regular services of different denominations before making his case that Jesus wouldn't know His followers today. Social justice is a vital commitment in many congregations.
2
How true.
The church I attend is led by female pastors, the membership includes non-white as well as gay members and it has a number of ongoing mission projects that include support to a nearby school dominated by students from low-income families and shelter for the homeless (and no it doesn't proselytize). There are plenty of other churches like ours but the critics of Christianity seem to ignore the fact we exist - probably because it conflicts with their narrative.
The church I attend is led by female pastors, the membership includes non-white as well as gay members and it has a number of ongoing mission projects that include support to a nearby school dominated by students from low-income families and shelter for the homeless (and no it doesn't proselytize). There are plenty of other churches like ours but the critics of Christianity seem to ignore the fact we exist - probably because it conflicts with their narrative.
I have come to this point in my life. I do not believe in God as defined by Man's religion. But this doesn't mean I don't believe in God. Religions start, as Kristof states, from some basic precepts espoused by a founder, and then grows. It grows by doing two things well. The first; presuming to know the thinking and the mind of the divine. The second, and more egregious, is to then act upon that presumption with rules, edicts and laws that all must, MUST, follow in order to gain that divine. All of this is hubris, of course. No one knows the mind of God. I will have none of it; and I suspect the divine does much the same once presumptions start being acted out.
However, this is not to unfairly castigate religion; as it does have a purpose. We all start as ignorant children wrapped in self regard.The purpose is to attune the mind to the reality of that divine. To a recognition that there is a higher order than our mere existence. Once attuned to this you will find your way ahead.
So consider religion as a signpost pointing out a way forward. For this reason religion can have a role as a staging point for ones future. But the path you choose to follow to the divine is but one in an infinitude. I recognize this; and so will not be critical of those whose path is more formal. But this is only in so far as others do not attempt to force their path upon me.
Just some thoughts along my own way to the source.
John~
American Net'Zen
However, this is not to unfairly castigate religion; as it does have a purpose. We all start as ignorant children wrapped in self regard.The purpose is to attune the mind to the reality of that divine. To a recognition that there is a higher order than our mere existence. Once attuned to this you will find your way ahead.
So consider religion as a signpost pointing out a way forward. For this reason religion can have a role as a staging point for ones future. But the path you choose to follow to the divine is but one in an infinitude. I recognize this; and so will not be critical of those whose path is more formal. But this is only in so far as others do not attempt to force their path upon me.
Just some thoughts along my own way to the source.
John~
American Net'Zen
7
"However, this is not to unfairly castigate religion; as it does have a purpose. We all start as ignorant children wrapped in self regard.The purpose is to attune the mind to the reality of that divine. To a recognition that there is a higher order than our mere existence. Once attuned to this you will find your way ahead. "
I was raised by secular humanist parents and got all that. You don't need to be raised in a religion to get that.
.
I was raised by secular humanist parents and got all that. You don't need to be raised in a religion to get that.
.
1
When you grow up in a dog eat dog society it is hard to maintain a Christian attitude. "Pie in the sky" is just that.
2
Kindness to another is the most contagious behavior humans share. And now that we can see one another in real-time for the first time in history, our emerging collective vision will enable spiritual solutions for social problems to come forward. Reveal your kindness today; the world is watching.
7
Jesus would not be a member of any church based upon the accounts in the Bible.
First he claimed to be divine - to be God in the flesh and at the same time the son of God. Jesus taught of a triune God that includes Himself, God the Father (presumably the God Hebrews venerate as G_d) and the Holy Spirit. There are faiths that dispute this, but the overwhelming majority of Christian sects hold to this understanding. Your mileage may vary.
Next, Jesus taught that he was the only way to reconcile fallen humanity to God. Not a way or one of a select few ways, but the only way provided for us. There is no wiggle room for universalism or the spiritual but not religious crowd. The statement "I am the way the truth and the light. No man comes to the Father except through me" does not allow for much revision.
I agree that most who claim to follow Jesus seem to adhere to political views very far from His teachings. The quote "as you have done unto the least of these, my brothers, you have done it unto me" should scare any Republican who thinks they are a follower of Christ.
First he claimed to be divine - to be God in the flesh and at the same time the son of God. Jesus taught of a triune God that includes Himself, God the Father (presumably the God Hebrews venerate as G_d) and the Holy Spirit. There are faiths that dispute this, but the overwhelming majority of Christian sects hold to this understanding. Your mileage may vary.
Next, Jesus taught that he was the only way to reconcile fallen humanity to God. Not a way or one of a select few ways, but the only way provided for us. There is no wiggle room for universalism or the spiritual but not religious crowd. The statement "I am the way the truth and the light. No man comes to the Father except through me" does not allow for much revision.
I agree that most who claim to follow Jesus seem to adhere to political views very far from His teachings. The quote "as you have done unto the least of these, my brothers, you have done it unto me" should scare any Republican who thinks they are a follower of Christ.
12
jesus never heard of the trinity. That ridiculous bit of dogma came about a few centuries later.
1
Being "the only one way" is purely good salesmanship. What was he to say when he was competing with the hundreds, thousands of other apocalyptic preachers of his day? "We're all right...just different." ??? Thats not how building a cult works. "Its my way or no other way, right?" Im the charismatic leader, right? I'm the one who got you to quit your lousy fishing, tax collecting jobs to wander around begging for food..., so Im the only way, right?"
Regretfully its always these sorts of lines that others run with when they want to create their heroes and elevate their cult leaders to god-status. "He said he was the only way, so he must be...that will be the rule."
We don't even know if a man named Jesus said 1/10th of the things credited to him. As we have no primary sources for any of it! None! And his claiming divinity is a highly arguable point, which the scriptures only complicate and never solve.
Regretfully its always these sorts of lines that others run with when they want to create their heroes and elevate their cult leaders to god-status. "He said he was the only way, so he must be...that will be the rule."
We don't even know if a man named Jesus said 1/10th of the things credited to him. As we have no primary sources for any of it! None! And his claiming divinity is a highly arguable point, which the scriptures only complicate and never solve.
Jesus would definitively not be a member of a state or theocratic religion, or one with a rigid hierarchy. Not a Muslim in Iran or Saudi Arabia today, nor a Catholic 16th Century Spain, nor Orthodox in the Russian Empire, nor an Orthodox Jew in Israel today. Almost certainly a religion in which there are reasoned rules with the primary guide for any individual being their own educated / scripture guided conscious.
Conservative or Reform Jew, Baptist or Unitarian in the US, today, would be my guess. Possibly Jesuit Catholic, or Bahai.
Conservative or Reform Jew, Baptist or Unitarian in the US, today, would be my guess. Possibly Jesuit Catholic, or Bahai.
5
The Judaism practiced today that is closest to that of the First Century would be, by far, Orthodox Judaism.
You must know nothing of the Reform faith, certainly not as it is exists today (as a kind of non-religious agnosticism fixated on social issues and gay marriage) if you think that Jesus would be a REFORM Jew. (And I say that as someone who was raised Reform.)
You must know nothing of the Reform faith, certainly not as it is exists today (as a kind of non-religious agnosticism fixated on social issues and gay marriage) if you think that Jesus would be a REFORM Jew. (And I say that as someone who was raised Reform.)
1
Jesus, who clearly professed the Triune God, would not be a Unitarian.
What religion would Jesus belong to? The Jesus of the New Testament would belong to none of the above. In fact, it is doubtful any of the existing religions would even recognize Jesus if he was sitting in the front pew. It is difficult to take up the cross having already used all the available wood to construct ever larger temples to human pride.
92
Funny how religions get mired in doctrines created by humans who follow the founders. Every religion basically teaches that man's duty is to know and worship God and to love his fellow man. Every one of them has some recognizable version of the golden rule. And pretty much none of them stay true to the founder's teachings very long. If God exists, and if God actually communicates to mankind through divine Messengers, then one has to wonder about the infinite patience of God.
Actions do speak louder than words. Based on that assessment, there don't seem to be many true Christians around.
Actions do speak louder than words. Based on that assessment, there don't seem to be many true Christians around.
7
Jesus is quoted more than once indicating that the central message of religion was to love God with all our heart, mind and strength and to love our neighbors as ourselves (adding the parable of the Good Samaritan to exemplify the definition of neighbor - i.e. not our socioeconomic peers).
This is a very straightforward message but my sense is that many prefer to become obsessed with the nuances of doctrine so they can comfortably ignore a message that requires them to be 'all-in."
This is a very straightforward message but my sense is that many prefer to become obsessed with the nuances of doctrine so they can comfortably ignore a message that requires them to be 'all-in."
Deeds not words are the hallmark of a person's religion. This quickly eliminates the hate mongers, the frauds and quacks out to make a buck.
7
Deeds, and words are the hallmarks of everyone's legacy. Religion has nothing to do with that.
2
Religion is a technology, a set of practices created in prehistorical times and refined during the Axial Age to bind communities together and enforce conformity and cooperation . . . in the competition against other communities.
The word religion itself derives from the Latin verb to bind together, but it's greater purpose is to wall its followers off. Kosher and Halal dietary rules? The precept that "No man comes unto the father but by me?" Whatever urgent necessity Myanmar's Buddhists have found for discriminating against the Rohynga? They're all ways of separating the community from everyone else so it can be driven to compete for more power and resources.
Religion really DOES poison everything.
And it's so completely unnecessary. The mysteries it was created to explain are now better explained by science. And science doesn't have the added feature of casting outsiders as morally unsalvageable demon worshipers.
Teach knowledge. Doctors don't need religion to make them want to serve in Sudan or Angola.
The word religion itself derives from the Latin verb to bind together, but it's greater purpose is to wall its followers off. Kosher and Halal dietary rules? The precept that "No man comes unto the father but by me?" Whatever urgent necessity Myanmar's Buddhists have found for discriminating against the Rohynga? They're all ways of separating the community from everyone else so it can be driven to compete for more power and resources.
Religion really DOES poison everything.
And it's so completely unnecessary. The mysteries it was created to explain are now better explained by science. And science doesn't have the added feature of casting outsiders as morally unsalvageable demon worshipers.
Teach knowledge. Doctors don't need religion to make them want to serve in Sudan or Angola.
12
I think your definition of religion better described the evolution of government and secular politics. Nothing is more self serving that a politician and nothing better describes magical thinking than political rhetoric.
So we have large groups of unrelated people bound by religion fighting each other rather than smaller kinship-based tribes fighting each other. There's good evidence that humans brutalized each other well before the religions we know today were founded. Even chimpanzees are known to commit murder and as far as anyone knows, they're not religious. Dolphins rape and commit infanticide. You can find videos on the web showing lions eating large prey where the animal being consumed is still clearly conscious. Our violent nature comes from evolution. Blaming religion is simply a way to avoid facing that truth.
A tiny group of influencers - Jesus and the Buddha were prime examples - taught us how to live differently - to defy our evolutionary heritage. Science, for all the material benefits and intellectual insight it has provided, has also given us the ability to spy on, steal from and even kill each other as never before.
I wouldn't put all my faith in science as long as the scientists are human.
A tiny group of influencers - Jesus and the Buddha were prime examples - taught us how to live differently - to defy our evolutionary heritage. Science, for all the material benefits and intellectual insight it has provided, has also given us the ability to spy on, steal from and even kill each other as never before.
I wouldn't put all my faith in science as long as the scientists are human.
1
Jesus is supposed to have said that there was only one commandment to be obeyed. To love they God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself.
He is also supposed to have said that to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, succor the ill and dying because to do all these things was as if one were doing it for him.
He never mentioned homosexuality, he forgave the woman at the well who was living in sin and had multiple husbands, he asked those who wanted to stone a woman for adultery which of them was without sin so that they could throw the first stone.
It seems to me that far too many people have forgotten all that Jesus said and did or have corrupted it beyond reason to mean something else entirely. And far too many use the Old Testament instead of the New Testament as their guide, and yet claim that they follow Jesus' way.
The Old Testament showed a God that was 'an eye for an eye'. The New Testament shows a God who says, I loved you so much that I've sent you a guide for how to live your life. Go and do it.
He is also supposed to have said that to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, succor the ill and dying because to do all these things was as if one were doing it for him.
He never mentioned homosexuality, he forgave the woman at the well who was living in sin and had multiple husbands, he asked those who wanted to stone a woman for adultery which of them was without sin so that they could throw the first stone.
It seems to me that far too many people have forgotten all that Jesus said and did or have corrupted it beyond reason to mean something else entirely. And far too many use the Old Testament instead of the New Testament as their guide, and yet claim that they follow Jesus' way.
The Old Testament showed a God that was 'an eye for an eye'. The New Testament shows a God who says, I loved you so much that I've sent you a guide for how to live your life. Go and do it.
8
As a self-described agnostic Franciscan -Taoist, I no longer believe in an immortal soul or in an afterlife much less an apocalyptic end time and final judgment from a patriarchal God. I do, however firmly believe in Jesus’ essential instruction: love God (for me the essentially mysterious creative energy that sparked the universe and all creation) and your neighbor as yourself. And I believe if everyone did that – EVERYONE – we’d have what Jesus called the kingdom of God right here, right now on earth. Or as many other poets and songwriters have said: “all you need is love.”
Jesus said the Kingdom was at hand, and by that I think he must have meant, right here. He clearly did not mean as the institutional church taught, that the so-called second coming was imminent in any meaningful scale of time. It’s been some two thousand years and it hasn’t happened yet. And “the Kingdom of Heaven” won’t happen when something comes down from on high. It will happen when we, with the help of the Holy Spirit (the spirit of Love), make it happen by practicing loving kindness in all we do. Try it sometime, everyone. We might surprise ourselves into heaven on earth. Peace.
Jesus said the Kingdom was at hand, and by that I think he must have meant, right here. He clearly did not mean as the institutional church taught, that the so-called second coming was imminent in any meaningful scale of time. It’s been some two thousand years and it hasn’t happened yet. And “the Kingdom of Heaven” won’t happen when something comes down from on high. It will happen when we, with the help of the Holy Spirit (the spirit of Love), make it happen by practicing loving kindness in all we do. Try it sometime, everyone. We might surprise ourselves into heaven on earth. Peace.
13
Richard--Just as HELL is, or can be, right here on earth. Great comment. Thanks.
4
Mr. Kristof:
"Jesus" would not recognize nor accept the religious tenets as espoused by far-too-many of his so-called followers today.
what he started and challenged us to do is both simple and extremely difficult to put into daily practice:
"love one another as we love ourselves"
down-through-the-many-eons,
people,
mostly male,
have consistently gotten-in-the-way of this instruction...
by superimposing their-own ideas and strictures and controls.
perhaps the oft stated:
"many are called, few are chosen"
is actually a summary of this species' innate inability to come to terms
with the Master's challenge.
we too infrequently remind ourselves about the Gospel's tales of Jesus'
relationships with children,
and the fact that he drove the money-changers from the temple.
rascal rebel was he...
for to change a heart is to change the world.
the indigenous and native occupants of the future-described
"Western Hemisphere" would have most-certainly preferred
the latter to what the 'soldiers-of-christ' actually inflicted upon them.
it is never too late for an aspirational view, hope and new-practice.
let us begin again.
6
"Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy."
Kafka got it right. It''s doubtful that Jesus, as much a reformer as a prophet, would have embraced any present-day organized religion.
Kafka got it right. It''s doubtful that Jesus, as much a reformer as a prophet, would have embraced any present-day organized religion.
122
I was raised in a home that pounded doctrinal theology into my head. My initial loss of faith came from the inconsistent logic of Christianity's fundamental tenants. I remain an atheist because Christians tend to be judgmental anti-intellectuals.
"By their fruits you will know them." If that is so, I know them to be intolerant, selfish fools that are obsessed with telling others how to live and wholly incapable of humble self-reflection.
"By their fruits you will know them." If that is so, I know them to be intolerant, selfish fools that are obsessed with telling others how to live and wholly incapable of humble self-reflection.
20
" but rather a Catholic missionary doctor in Sudan treating bomb victims, an evangelical physician achieving the impossible in rural Angola, a rabbi battling for Palestinians’ human rights — they fill me with an almost holy sense of awe. Now, that’s religion."
No, it is not religion. It is public service.
True, many religious people do perform public service but that is not ALL there is to religion.
There is a Mormon girl who worked for my ex-wife, cleaning her apartment and watering her plants. She was very caring and very kind but she did say once that she felt that God was always WITH her. She said, "I do not understand how people can live who do not feel as I do."
Her caring attitude was part of her religion but not the whole of it.
No, it is not religion. It is public service.
True, many religious people do perform public service but that is not ALL there is to religion.
There is a Mormon girl who worked for my ex-wife, cleaning her apartment and watering her plants. She was very caring and very kind but she did say once that she felt that God was always WITH her. She said, "I do not understand how people can live who do not feel as I do."
Her caring attitude was part of her religion but not the whole of it.
3
The bedrock of Christianity is Jesus and Paul. WWPD is a deeper and even more interesting question today. What religious order best honors Paul's total dedication to Jesus and church, and the core and singularity of Jesus' teachings, while balancing the power and beauty of tradition without becoming dogmatic to the tune of contradicting the clear underlying message, as described in the article.
Ps - Born to a mother raised then renounced Catholicism, a live and let live father brought up in a Christian Scientist household, an atheist brother and Buddhist sister, I have been a Congregationalist for many years, but today find myself more spiritual and living the lessons of charity, less so any organized religion.
Ps - Born to a mother raised then renounced Catholicism, a live and let live father brought up in a Christian Scientist household, an atheist brother and Buddhist sister, I have been a Congregationalist for many years, but today find myself more spiritual and living the lessons of charity, less so any organized religion.
2
Owen--You have a lot of agreeable company.
1
Organized religion has become just another business and the message of taking care of each other is all but lost.
10
"Remember that on average religious Americans donate far more to charity and volunteer more than secular Americans do."
Aside from secular Americans on average being kinder politically to the poor and the environment, religious Americans donate primarily to their religious organizations, which aren't required (and don't) file Forms 990, so we have no idea where all that money ultimately goes. We know a lot of that money goes to build elaborate expensive buildings, and some to religious education, but the rest is anybody's guess. I doubt much goes to charity.
Aside from secular Americans on average being kinder politically to the poor and the environment, religious Americans donate primarily to their religious organizations, which aren't required (and don't) file Forms 990, so we have no idea where all that money ultimately goes. We know a lot of that money goes to build elaborate expensive buildings, and some to religious education, but the rest is anybody's guess. I doubt much goes to charity.
20
Dan--A lot of it goes towards propaganda and recruitment. God needs money, apparently.
3
Why do you disparage someone else's generosity to make you generosity seem greater. Jesus tells us that when we give with our right hand the left hand should not know what we do. In other words, give without expectation of recognition. Compassion is a human quality that works just as potently for people of faith as it does for our secular society.
I take offense at the quote, "...Remember that on average religious Americans donate far more to charity and volunteer more than secular Americans do."
My atheist and agnostic friends do far more to serve humanity and care for the earth than Christians I know. And they do it far more efficiently, making sure donations go to charity and not O&M of a church. Don't count the "indifferent" with our good works.
My atheist and agnostic friends do far more to serve humanity and care for the earth than Christians I know. And they do it far more efficiently, making sure donations go to charity and not O&M of a church. Don't count the "indifferent" with our good works.
16
Patricia--We atheists and agnostics don't have to advertise our charity and good works, because we're not trying to impress anyone, just doing the right thing.
2
Good point--an atheist social worker is doing more for the needy than a banker or oil exec who profits from capitalism and donates some of the profits to their church.
2
This article cites one of America's great misunderstandings, that Jesus only speaks through the Gospels. The Bible says that Jesus is actually the word and that the entire Bible is written through him by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, all of the Bible is coming from Jesus. Unfortunately for Mr. McLaren, the Bible does speak about homosexuality and the importance of the unborn saying that God knew us before we were born. Yes, justice and mercy were the heart of Jesus' message. Helping the poor and neglected are often overlooked by today's Christians and we must show Christ's love for others through serving and loving EVERYONE. However, we must not make Jesus into something He wasn't. We must recognize that he was holy and that he agreed with the scriptures. He said he didn't come to abolish the law, but fulfill it. This frustrates me when Christians try to ignore the uncomfortable parts of the Bible to try to win people over the Christianity. I am certainly not hateful, but I do affirm that the Scriptures are true and good, even if sometimes they are hard to understand. They are hard to understand because God is not us, and his ways are not are ways. Thank you for focusing on the idea that Christians should live selflessly and sacrificially. We should care about everyone and love. But the heart of Jesus' message wasn't simply a social justice message, it was that no one can enter Heaven unless they are born again. We are born into sin and must turn to Jesus for salvation
2
Jesus, the Rabbi, providing he existed at all (no archaeological or Roman-period evidence), in keeping with the teachings as outlined in the NT, would not "belong" to any man-made religion at all. Like The Buddha, he saw that divisions into religions were relics of this world and impermanent, thereby highlighting the transcendence of true spirituality...
...and it's on this unfortunate reality that Christians are among the worst interpreters of their own faith.
Enter Jesus, the cultural superhero of the West.
...and it's on this unfortunate reality that Christians are among the worst interpreters of their own faith.
Enter Jesus, the cultural superhero of the West.
5
Only when the practice of "religion" involves an intimate and serious reflection on the central tenets of the revealed faiths will the meaning of love and compassion and selflessness be rediscovered. It's really is all about considering the spiritual source.
3
Bravo.
I believe that this is one of those columns that will be bookmarked, forwarded and referred to, repeatedly, over the coming years. As an atheist, I have been entirely unable to convince so many supposedly similar-thinking people that the inherent value of “religious” metaphorical teachings is more precious than ever – that we are not merely intellectual beings – that we face the prospect of unknowingly becoming progressively more and more incomplete human beings, lacking empathy and ethics and aesthetics and a genuine appreciation for the mystery of life that transcends our intellectual understanding.
Consider the question of whether Jesus would (or should) own a cell phone. Of course, the simple literal response would be that he wouldn’t need one; but wouldn’t "religious" parables show us that if we are to have any possibility of being truly connected, in the moment, to the living human dimension, we need to be disconnected from the cold, dark, unfeeling, ever-increasingly pervasive digital dimension? Digital media can only focus on instant gratification. In order to become genuine human beings, we must learn how to resist becoming part of that metaphorical digital network from Star Trek known as the “Borg”.
We need to awaken, rise up and confront the dangerous trends that this column addresses, if we are to have any hope of saving our planet and our future as a species.
I believe that this is one of those columns that will be bookmarked, forwarded and referred to, repeatedly, over the coming years. As an atheist, I have been entirely unable to convince so many supposedly similar-thinking people that the inherent value of “religious” metaphorical teachings is more precious than ever – that we are not merely intellectual beings – that we face the prospect of unknowingly becoming progressively more and more incomplete human beings, lacking empathy and ethics and aesthetics and a genuine appreciation for the mystery of life that transcends our intellectual understanding.
Consider the question of whether Jesus would (or should) own a cell phone. Of course, the simple literal response would be that he wouldn’t need one; but wouldn’t "religious" parables show us that if we are to have any possibility of being truly connected, in the moment, to the living human dimension, we need to be disconnected from the cold, dark, unfeeling, ever-increasingly pervasive digital dimension? Digital media can only focus on instant gratification. In order to become genuine human beings, we must learn how to resist becoming part of that metaphorical digital network from Star Trek known as the “Borg”.
We need to awaken, rise up and confront the dangerous trends that this column addresses, if we are to have any hope of saving our planet and our future as a species.
1
It's good that there is a difference between Religion and Christianity. One may be "born" into religion however no one is born into being a Christ follower. A person does not inherit or earn their way to becoming a Christian, it is only through accepting that Jesus Christ gave up his life for the repentant person who understands they cannot ever earn favor through God's commands for human beings. We are all sinners and fall short of God's commands for human living on earth.
2
True Jesus was born Jewish but at the age of 31 was a radical - less worried about Jewish tradition and more worried about the basics - serving the poor and loving your neighbor as yourself. I think Jesus would be hanging out with Mother Theresa's "Missionaries of Charity" but would convince them to drop their habits and hierarchy as he was just not into the clothing bit. I don't think he would join any one group as that would be counterproductive to bringing everyone together on common ground to address war, poverty, sickness, etc.
8
Bridget--Jesus was supposedly a messianic figure among numerous such figures of the time, including John, the Baptist. If the stories are to be believed. Evidently, the Jesus contingent were better sales representatives.
1
Jesus was Jewish. Why would you think he would change that?
23
@Andrew: A contemporary French Huguenot perceptively observed that "Calvinism is Judaism for Christians." Think about it.....
Precisely.
Excellent.
Excellent.
Pretending to know what Jesus actually said is an act of faith. The gospels were not written during or close to his life-time, and the canon of scriptures is not agreed among Christian groups. No later than 300 A.D., Christianity became a tool of government when Constantine recognized that the new religion might as well fulfill a function religions had fulfilled for millennia, to be a repository of totems and taboos.
The Jewish tradition provided the Ten Commandments, a very wise set of guidelines for any society, guidelines that can be understood in a purely humanistic way. Unfortunately, many of out neighbors have suffered under the grim influence of Calvin or Jansen.
The Jewish tradition provided the Ten Commandments, a very wise set of guidelines for any society, guidelines that can be understood in a purely humanistic way. Unfortunately, many of out neighbors have suffered under the grim influence of Calvin or Jansen.
7
dEs--FAITH is belief without evidence. And, it's as much a waste of time as praying.
1
Christians don't work their missions for compassionate reasons alone, but to convert. Compassion and charity are recruitment tools.
I find it ironic that your scholar wants us to ignore whether the miracles were true and instead focus on the message the actions convey. But if the miracles are false and didn't happen, the real response should be to question the accuracy of the material.
While I don't question that religion provides minor acts if kindness, I'd argue that it causes much more harm and becomes a tool of the powerful to maintain the status quo. That's how Christianity was used to support slavery, oppose Civil Rights and now is used to fight gay rights.
Religion is now used to fight science, education, universal healthcare, Welfare, abortion rights, equal rights, and many other just causes. Tell me again how religion is good for us?
I find it ironic that your scholar wants us to ignore whether the miracles were true and instead focus on the message the actions convey. But if the miracles are false and didn't happen, the real response should be to question the accuracy of the material.
While I don't question that religion provides minor acts if kindness, I'd argue that it causes much more harm and becomes a tool of the powerful to maintain the status quo. That's how Christianity was used to support slavery, oppose Civil Rights and now is used to fight gay rights.
Religion is now used to fight science, education, universal healthcare, Welfare, abortion rights, equal rights, and many other just causes. Tell me again how religion is good for us?
15
" Tell me again how religion is good for us?"
Religion is on our side when we send our young men off to war to kill & die. Is that what you meant by being good for us ???
Religion is on our side when we send our young men off to war to kill & die. Is that what you meant by being good for us ???
1
Amen. This is what I am trying to live, preach, and teach. The lively congregations and seekers are those focused on service and distributive justice.
5
Yeah, forget the details and whether or not the things claimed in Bible actually happened. Those are just pesky facts, and/or they're made up hogwash. Look to the spirit of what's being said!
In which case, I really like the message that Harry Potter sent about being good and battling evil. I think I'll worship him.
And maybe I'll become an evangelist for Potterism and proclaim the "truths" of Harry's message. I bet there's good money to be made from other believers.
In which case, I really like the message that Harry Potter sent about being good and battling evil. I think I'll worship him.
And maybe I'll become an evangelist for Potterism and proclaim the "truths" of Harry's message. I bet there's good money to be made from other believers.
4
I like your column, and I agree with your concern. You put in many words part of my struggles with my church, I'm Catholic. Thanks!
5
Jesus - he'd probably be an atheist today. He should have been one when he was alive!
13
Jesus was an iconoclast and a reformer. He would likely be fascinated by all world religions but would also find much to criticize.
7
Perhaps people should blow the dust off the Bibles found in many homes and read about Jesus for themselves instead of listening to preachers, teachers, and editorial writers! Christian religious structures are largely man created, borrowing on the Jewish structures present at the time of Jesus, such as local church councils/elders. Several of Jesus' confrontations had to do with sects within Jewish society emphasizing one part of Torah or another. Later the Apostle Paul's letters offer both chastisements and encouragement to church leaders and workers who struggles as well. As humans we are not perfect, but in constant need of correction and forgiveness. But, read the book for yourself. Start with the Gospel of John.
9
I pray to be religiously ignorant, but I don't think that Jesus is mentioned in the Bible.
There are deep scholarly works out there, that deal in nit-picking detail with nothing but the big question: what did Jesus really say? And what was likely embroidered into the New Test., for the growing organization's benefit, later on?
If you just study what those scholars thought were probably his real words, the gospels get pretty thin.
But if everybody- if every professed Christian- really lived according to those simple, world-shaking suggestions, along with a little "Four score and seven years ago..."
Things would really work better.
Like Lennon's "Imagine".
And this same criticism also applies to the very selective lack of application- in today's Muslim world- of the clear teachings of Muhammad.
If you just study what those scholars thought were probably his real words, the gospels get pretty thin.
But if everybody- if every professed Christian- really lived according to those simple, world-shaking suggestions, along with a little "Four score and seven years ago..."
Things would really work better.
Like Lennon's "Imagine".
And this same criticism also applies to the very selective lack of application- in today's Muslim world- of the clear teachings of Muhammad.
4
Jesus was a revolutionary and he would have stayed a revolutionary. He promised a new world. He had nothing. He was on the side of the suffering people. He fed people and shared with people. He was against commercialism. He was against the hypocrites. He was against the powers that be. He would have agreed with Marx that religion is the opium of the people.
9
Rockefeller was on the side of the suffering people. So he lowered the price of oil from 58c/barrel to 7c. The people then had more and less expensive light, heat, transportation, etc.
If you are a revolutionary for too long, you end up being just revolting.
"on average religious Americans donate far more to charity and volunteer more than secular"
This includes donations to church/religion, no doubt. And note that religionists give so that they can get a payback in heaven. Heathens like me give just because it's needed.
This includes donations to church/religion, no doubt. And note that religionists give so that they can get a payback in heaven. Heathens like me give just because it's needed.
48
Although us heathens also get the same tax deduction as the religionists.
But to your point - I wonder how much of those church donations go to pay the salaries of leaders spewing hatred and division?
But to your point - I wonder how much of those church donations go to pay the salaries of leaders spewing hatred and division?
Assuming Jesus existed as an actual individual, there is no "would" about which religion he belonged to; he was a Jew. He expressed no interest in starting or joining another religion, but worked to reform his own.
So, if there's a Second Coming, Rabbi Jacobs of the URJ should expect to add one more name to the membership rolls of Reform Judaism, a movement with social justice at its core.
So, if there's a Second Coming, Rabbi Jacobs of the URJ should expect to add one more name to the membership rolls of Reform Judaism, a movement with social justice at its core.
28
Leon Kaas years ago, suggested what a breath of fresh air it would be if Americans supplemented a morality that was dominated by rules and "thou shalts and thou shalt nots" with an Aristotelian ethical system that was about how one might live and flourish (to achieve the good and happy life). I think Aristotle had it mostly right!
7
From Aristotle to Rand.
Excellent question, good insights. By the way the New Testament clearly shows the Jesus practiced his Jewish Religion albeit with a certain freedom.
11
The author misses the major, transformative point of Jesus being here: to re-establish a Grace-based relationship with God. In that, God granted potential for relationship with Him without regard to race, gender, or station in life (slave/free/circumcised or not). The latter implies that we are all equal before God's law and that "equal before the law" became the transformative foundation of the West.
Jesus was not about a religion but about relationship to God. He promised a "comforter," the Holy Spirit to guide us into "all truth." The fundamental "truth," then, is Grace. In fact, that has transformed the world.
How many true believers does it take to maintain this transformation? How many readers have sought and found a relationship to God through this Jesus pathway? Francis Schaeffer argued that, if there really is a God, He must have a relationship with individuals or He is not relevant. I.e., having a personal, each person to God relationship must be possible if there is a God. Have you sought that?
Jesus was not about a religion but about relationship to God. He promised a "comforter," the Holy Spirit to guide us into "all truth." The fundamental "truth," then, is Grace. In fact, that has transformed the world.
How many true believers does it take to maintain this transformation? How many readers have sought and found a relationship to God through this Jesus pathway? Francis Schaeffer argued that, if there really is a God, He must have a relationship with individuals or He is not relevant. I.e., having a personal, each person to God relationship must be possible if there is a God. Have you sought that?
3
Yes, that is what the article is about, that relationship and its practical meaning. History clearly shows that II is subject to abuse in the hands of those who define theology starting right with "Saint" Paul who never actually met or talked with Jesus.
A much better question, Where would Jesus be if he were back on earth today? Jesus was and will be Jewish. Not once did he say 'Stop being Jewish'. Christians all seem to believe that Jesus will show up in their church's pulpit upon his return to earth. Jesus told his followers exactly where he will be, and it is not in any church.
18
Amen to Sierra's comment. To add: as a firebrand Jewish nationalist, Jesus would live in a Judean settlement, proud that the Romans had disappeared, proud that Jewish sovereignty in the Holy Land had been reestablished. He would criticize slackers and corrupters of Judaism, as he did at the Temple, and would be branded a fundamentalist by Mr. Kristof.
2
To ask what religion Jesus would be, is to ask what religion God would be. “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30. Politics is religion. Whenever there is conflict between religious faith and political doctrine a choice must be made. Politics is winning in America.
"But a human being cannot live his life moment by moment; a human consciousness preserves a certain continuity and demands a certain degree of integration, whether a man seeks it or not. A human being needs a frame of reference, a comprehensive view of existence, no matter how rudimentary, and, since his consciousness is volitional, a sense of being right, a moral justification of his actions, which means: a philosophical code of values. Who, then, provides Attila with values? The Witch Doctor.
--Ayn Rand, "For The New Intellectual"
The religious hatred of man's independent mind is universal among founders, followers and their politics, whether conservative or egalitarian. America is the product of the Enlightenment love of man's independent mind. Kantian nihilism killed that love and replaced it with nothing. Thus the return of religion.
--Ayn Rand, "For The New Intellectual"
The religious hatred of man's independent mind is universal among founders, followers and their politics, whether conservative or egalitarian. America is the product of the Enlightenment love of man's independent mind. Kantian nihilism killed that love and replaced it with nothing. Thus the return of religion.
Thomas Aquinas, one of the Church's greatest theologians, said that God gave humans a rational being and free will. It is science and secular philosophy that believes we live in a deterministic universe.
Which religion would Jesus choose? None of them, of course.
The Four Gospels of the New Testament are the only accounts we have of the historical Jesus. These Scriptures afford a brief glimpse of the man, viewed through a glass clouded by webs of devious theology and accounts of preposterous miracles. But, put aside the dross and study His teachings and examples, and you will find a way of life intended to free mankind from the burden of religion and superstition.
Jesus had no theology. He gave us only two commandments: to accept what we cannot change, i. e. “God”, and to engage in fellowship with our fellow man.
Jesus gave us no sacred stones to worship, no religious observances and rituals to be followed, no comprehensive list of transgressions to avoid. He denounced the Pharisees and Sadducees, the most devout adherents of the Old Testament religion, as hypocrites. He pooh-poohed ostentatious displays of sanctimony and the strict observance of the Sabbath. He respected women’s rights by denouncing frivolous divorce and by halting the biblically-mandated execution of an adulteress.
Can you even imagine Jesus dressed in a tacky religious costume entering a gaudy cathedral on Sunday to kneel and bow to statues, intone made-up prayers, and endure dreary sermons based on misconstrued Old Testament scripture?
The Four Gospels of the New Testament are the only accounts we have of the historical Jesus. These Scriptures afford a brief glimpse of the man, viewed through a glass clouded by webs of devious theology and accounts of preposterous miracles. But, put aside the dross and study His teachings and examples, and you will find a way of life intended to free mankind from the burden of religion and superstition.
Jesus had no theology. He gave us only two commandments: to accept what we cannot change, i. e. “God”, and to engage in fellowship with our fellow man.
Jesus gave us no sacred stones to worship, no religious observances and rituals to be followed, no comprehensive list of transgressions to avoid. He denounced the Pharisees and Sadducees, the most devout adherents of the Old Testament religion, as hypocrites. He pooh-poohed ostentatious displays of sanctimony and the strict observance of the Sabbath. He respected women’s rights by denouncing frivolous divorce and by halting the biblically-mandated execution of an adulteress.
Can you even imagine Jesus dressed in a tacky religious costume entering a gaudy cathedral on Sunday to kneel and bow to statues, intone made-up prayers, and endure dreary sermons based on misconstrued Old Testament scripture?
202
Huh? Show me one place in the Gospels in which Jesus renounced his Judaism.
2
Can I get an "Amen"? Well said.
I have to ask. Your handle. Are you pro- or anti-Ayn Rand?
I always thought Rand was almost the exact opposite of Jesus.
I have to ask. Your handle. Are you pro- or anti-Ayn Rand?
I always thought Rand was almost the exact opposite of Jesus.
1
I realize the title was rhetorical, nevertheless the answer is that Jesus would belong to none of the above. If one listens to the message of Jesus it seems clear he wasn't so much intent in establishing a new religion as he was in bringing about change in people.
What we call Christianity today is more something that was created by Paul, who never met Jesus but claimed to have had an epiphany. In the hands of Paul, the message of Jesus was replaced by the meaning of Jesus's death, so the change that Jesus called for in all of us was replaced by a belief that Jesus had already made the sacrifice for our sins on the cross.
Jesus said: "Therefore, you must be perfect, as the father in heaven is perfect." He also said: "bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back." This is high teaching indeed and it demands a standard that has been lost. Each of us must look into our hearts and judge to what degree what have lived up to this standard, and if we find ourselves wanting we ourselves must resolve to change.
What we call Christianity today is more something that was created by Paul, who never met Jesus but claimed to have had an epiphany. In the hands of Paul, the message of Jesus was replaced by the meaning of Jesus's death, so the change that Jesus called for in all of us was replaced by a belief that Jesus had already made the sacrifice for our sins on the cross.
Jesus said: "Therefore, you must be perfect, as the father in heaven is perfect." He also said: "bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back." This is high teaching indeed and it demands a standard that has been lost. Each of us must look into our hearts and judge to what degree what have lived up to this standard, and if we find ourselves wanting we ourselves must resolve to change.
6
Please stop talking about the Rohingya as if they are a people in a dire situation or victims, they are not.
They are a religious invasion force just like the IS but minus the killings but with great marketing - based on an assumed victim role.
Nevertheless, they are invading a country in which they do not believe in.
So please stop doing the propaganda work for them.
They are a religious invasion force just like the IS but minus the killings but with great marketing - based on an assumed victim role.
Nevertheless, they are invading a country in which they do not believe in.
So please stop doing the propaganda work for them.
3
You present one opinion, but i am curious about what motivates you to say this. The aversion and unwise speech in your comment suggests that you are not a Buddhist.
1
Your denial is the propaganda. Mr. Kristof has been
to the area and observed their pathetic condition first
hand. He doesn't owe them anything to be their
propagandist. Your denial indicates you are a Buddhist.
to the area and observed their pathetic condition first
hand. He doesn't owe them anything to be their
propagandist. Your denial indicates you are a Buddhist.
You can't expect to see the hand of the divine in things people have touched. People usually bend their faith to fit their customs and desires, rather than bending customs and desires to match the tenets of their faith.
So we end up with Christians who believe in Prosperity Gospel even as Jesus himself was essentially a socialist (put aside all you have and follow me.) And we have Muslims who substituted the role of women in region's cultural tradition for the role they had in the Prophet's time. We have racist Buddhists in Myanmar, and a Jewish state unable to solve the problem of dealing with people who have been tossed out of the promised land.
The role of religion is to point out the hypocrisies, not to re-inforce them. But people don't like to be told that they should be better than they are, so they flock to where they are comfortable.
If Jesus were walking the earth today, he'd be a rebel and upstart, bound by his faith to tell us we are all going about things in the wrong way. And we'd take to his message about as well as the Pharisees did.
So we end up with Christians who believe in Prosperity Gospel even as Jesus himself was essentially a socialist (put aside all you have and follow me.) And we have Muslims who substituted the role of women in region's cultural tradition for the role they had in the Prophet's time. We have racist Buddhists in Myanmar, and a Jewish state unable to solve the problem of dealing with people who have been tossed out of the promised land.
The role of religion is to point out the hypocrisies, not to re-inforce them. But people don't like to be told that they should be better than they are, so they flock to where they are comfortable.
If Jesus were walking the earth today, he'd be a rebel and upstart, bound by his faith to tell us we are all going about things in the wrong way. And we'd take to his message about as well as the Pharisees did.
7
Several years ago I was an agnostic who was vocally critical of religion in general and Christianity in particular. In a moment of intellectual honesty, I realized that I had been critiquing the Bible without actually having read it in more than small snippets. I was well-educated by worldly standards, but I was among the religious illiterates that Prothero mentions.
Over the course of six months, I read the Bible from cover to cover. I also read analyses of the Bible, from both religious and secular authors. I reluctantly conceded that my pop culture knowledge of Jesus was seriously flawed.
Reading over some the comments here, I wonder how many posters also fall into the category of religious illiterates, even if they consider themselves well-educated.
Over the course of six months, I read the Bible from cover to cover. I also read analyses of the Bible, from both religious and secular authors. I reluctantly conceded that my pop culture knowledge of Jesus was seriously flawed.
Reading over some the comments here, I wonder how many posters also fall into the category of religious illiterates, even if they consider themselves well-educated.
24
Jesus was a Jew and observed the Jewish faith, except where it violated human need. He deflected criticism of his followers who picked and ate on the Sabbath, he prevented the stoning of a woman caught in "adultery" and forgave her, he consorted with women and with prostitutes and with a "tax collector" who was a traitor to Judaism. His friends were all Jewish as was his mother. He died for the greater good. Jesus was and would be a Jew. Christianity would have been unrecognizable to Jesus after the appearance of Paul, a Hellenized Pharisee who introduced Greek beliefs in hell, eternal punishment, moral superiority, and immanent return of Jesus.
Every religion that claims an exclusive relationship with God opens itself to tyranny. Cruelty, punishment, murder, subjugation of women and non-religious is so common that it can be used as the identifying characteristic of organized religion. Believers can justify their behavior in context with a fragment of religious text. All politicians covet religious certainty in their cause.
Jesus was a Jewish reformer who operated outside of the context of Jewish theology and organization. Christians may believe that Jesus was God, the Son of God, or the Son of Man and their meaning may be reduced to their exclusive claim to truth and justice. What is most damning, by their own claims, is their cherry-picking of scriptures to justify cruelty. The texts do not support their claims but condemn them.
Every religion that claims an exclusive relationship with God opens itself to tyranny. Cruelty, punishment, murder, subjugation of women and non-religious is so common that it can be used as the identifying characteristic of organized religion. Believers can justify their behavior in context with a fragment of religious text. All politicians covet religious certainty in their cause.
Jesus was a Jewish reformer who operated outside of the context of Jewish theology and organization. Christians may believe that Jesus was God, the Son of God, or the Son of Man and their meaning may be reduced to their exclusive claim to truth and justice. What is most damning, by their own claims, is their cherry-picking of scriptures to justify cruelty. The texts do not support their claims but condemn them.
38
Nick, I wish God had given eternal lives to all the Messiahs so that we could hear them or see them in person, instead of going to a church or a synagogue or a mosque or a temple etc, and to listen to their fake followers who've distorted the Messiahs' words and worldviews and molded them in their own ways with the influence of their political leaders or the kings and the politicians .
The same words that those Messiahs like Jesus, Moses, Mohammed and Rama or Buddha etc, spoke had been totally torpedoed and are being presented to us now with so much of distortions that I'm not really surprised that 'one-fourth of the Americans don't identify with a particular religion-accounting for one-third of millennials who call themselves 'nones' as stated by you .
That is the main reason why I don't get surprised when someone says to me that they're atheists .
Growing up believing in the existence of God and his teachings have made me who I'm today. A decent human being.
But listening to the political discourses these days that spells out pure hatred spewed by our political leaders, mainly Trump,who's totally backed by the Evangelicals and other Christians, one really wonders how low most of the Christians sank in ?
If a demagogue like Trump and the leader of I.S.I.S. can elicit so many followers while they're literally talking about killing people of different faiths by the thousands or by the millions of Muslim faith by Trump, then our humanity and our religion has a big problem.
The same words that those Messiahs like Jesus, Moses, Mohammed and Rama or Buddha etc, spoke had been totally torpedoed and are being presented to us now with so much of distortions that I'm not really surprised that 'one-fourth of the Americans don't identify with a particular religion-accounting for one-third of millennials who call themselves 'nones' as stated by you .
That is the main reason why I don't get surprised when someone says to me that they're atheists .
Growing up believing in the existence of God and his teachings have made me who I'm today. A decent human being.
But listening to the political discourses these days that spells out pure hatred spewed by our political leaders, mainly Trump,who's totally backed by the Evangelicals and other Christians, one really wonders how low most of the Christians sank in ?
If a demagogue like Trump and the leader of I.S.I.S. can elicit so many followers while they're literally talking about killing people of different faiths by the thousands or by the millions of Muslim faith by Trump, then our humanity and our religion has a big problem.
4
From faith in Jesus to faith in Trump is a small step.
"Jesus...focused on the sick and the poor, yet some Christian leaders have prospered"
Jesus focused on the sick only to restore them to good health.
He focused on the "poor of spirit" not the poor of cash.
His preaching was to the upper middle class of Judea. Just look at the occupations of the Apostles.
Jesus was not interested in "losers"
Jesus focused on the sick only to restore them to good health.
He focused on the "poor of spirit" not the poor of cash.
His preaching was to the upper middle class of Judea. Just look at the occupations of the Apostles.
Jesus was not interested in "losers"
Thank God people don't practice Christianity like it's written in the Bible! Just imagine the tyranny and horror that would entail. Execution for all manner of petty offences, slavery, heavenly-inspired genocide.
Ironically, people's willingness to ignore their own holy books is one of religion's saving graces!
Ironically, people's willingness to ignore their own holy books is one of religion's saving graces!
3
Apparently you haven't read the New Testament.
1
Jesus would belong to "Please Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" church. This congregation, just down the street, believes that Jesus was a great dude, not a god. They preach that Jesus was speaking of a heaven here, not in the sky. In truth, they have a parchment written in the hand of Jesus that says heaven is a poison and can only permit people to discard this earth waiting for the next. His Mom, Mary also had a parchment, kept hidden for centuries as well, that quotes her, "He was always a good boy, but he believed the idea of a god was crazy, separated us from nature and was used to control people. And for this they crucified him."
8
The historic belief of the Catholic Church is that the purpose of our lives is to save our own souls and get to Heaven. The Church is there to help us accomplish this via Catholic doctrine, Sacraments, obedience to the 10 Commandments and prayer. Today, since Vatican II, the focus has shifted away from God to Man. This is precisely the wrong direction according to Christ himself in today's Gospel: "If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. "
Jesus was not a social worker. He worked miracles to show He was God so that people would accept his teaching. Believing Jesus is God and obedience to his teaching is how we are saved. Doing good works is part of obedience to his teaching but it is secondary.
Jesus was not a social worker. He worked miracles to show He was God so that people would accept his teaching. Believing Jesus is God and obedience to his teaching is how we are saved. Doing good works is part of obedience to his teaching but it is secondary.
3
Living in faith merely to save one's own soul is the ultimate selfishness.
1
He would be what he was: a left of center Jew speaking truth to the rich and powerful on behalf of the oppressed and marginalized....Bernie Sanders?
42
Wonder if Jesus shouted and flailed as much as Bernie does. But this does explain one baffling passage in the Gospel of John in which Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane utters emphatically to his assembled apostles regarding Pontius Pilate: "I'm sick and tired of hearing about his damned hand washing!"
1
"a left of center Jew speaking truth to the rich and powerful on behalf of the oppressed and marginalized."
Agreed but the only people he cared about were Jews. He was a Torah observant Jew and thus unfriendly to Gentiles ,etc. eg
1/ “You shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them & their gods. They shall not live in your land. (Exodus 23:31-33).
2/ Jesus insisted that his mission was “solely for the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15-4. )
Agreed but the only people he cared about were Jews. He was a Torah observant Jew and thus unfriendly to Gentiles ,etc. eg
1/ “You shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them & their gods. They shall not live in your land. (Exodus 23:31-33).
2/ Jesus insisted that his mission was “solely for the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15-4. )
1
If born today, Jesus would likely grow up in a home either with or without religion and he would recognize in that setting --whatever angle on Truth was emphasized in his home-- the Whole Truth. He would then share that Truth by living in love, love of Creator and of Creation, serving others and respecting himself.
2
If belief in the basic Christian message of love, inclusion, tolerance and respect for those less fortunate is what it takes to be a Christian, then I can sign on.
If being a Christian requires belief in Christ as a deity, the resurrection, the virgin birth, "loaves, fishes and other miracles" then count me out.
Most of all, I find the philosophical world view expressed in John 3:16 to be abhorrent. As I understand that tenet of conventional Christianity, it is saying "if you do not believe what I believe, you are condemned to eternal damnation regardless of the quality of your life on earth." That is a philosophical statement designed to scare the ignorant into joining up . . . a marketing statement, if you will.
As for me, I'll try as best I can to live by the teachings of Jesus as I understand them and cast the ridiculous "magical" mumbo jumbo into the trash heap where it belongs.
If being a Christian requires belief in Christ as a deity, the resurrection, the virgin birth, "loaves, fishes and other miracles" then count me out.
Most of all, I find the philosophical world view expressed in John 3:16 to be abhorrent. As I understand that tenet of conventional Christianity, it is saying "if you do not believe what I believe, you are condemned to eternal damnation regardless of the quality of your life on earth." That is a philosophical statement designed to scare the ignorant into joining up . . . a marketing statement, if you will.
As for me, I'll try as best I can to live by the teachings of Jesus as I understand them and cast the ridiculous "magical" mumbo jumbo into the trash heap where it belongs.
28
As someone who was raised a Catholic, I guarantee that Jesus would not recognize his church in the aging prelates who seem far more interested in sex than love or mercy.
He would support Pope Francis though!
He would support Pope Francis though!
17
"He would support Pope Francis though!"
Nope. Jesus was a Torah observant Jew who believed in Mosaic law. Judaism teaches that Gentiles are bad & Jesus would be unfriendly to them. eg.1/ “You shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them & their gods. They shall not live in your land. (Exodus 23:31-33).
2/ Jesus insisted that his mission was “solely for the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15-4. )
3/ Jesus commanded his disciples to share the good news with none but their fellow Jews: “Go nowhere near the Gentiles & do not enter the city of the Samaritans” (Matthew 10:5-6)
4/ As Jesus said to a non-Jew “Let the children (Jews) be fed first for it is not right to take the children`s bread & throw it to the dogs” (Mark 7:27)
5/ His commands to “turn the other cheek” & “love your enemies” relates strictly to other Torah observant Jews.
His objective of freeing Roman Palestine of the pagans is summed up in Matthew 10:34. Jesus reportedly said “Do not think that I have come to bring peace but the sword.”
Other than predicting that his god (Yahweh) was going to come down to earth & establish his (Yahweh`s) kingdom in Jerusalem & free Palestine of the pagans & temple elite (bloodsuckers) ,during the lifetime of Jesus, his understanding of the world was that of a primitive religious zealot of which there were many in that same century.
Nope. Jesus was a Torah observant Jew who believed in Mosaic law. Judaism teaches that Gentiles are bad & Jesus would be unfriendly to them. eg.1/ “You shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them & their gods. They shall not live in your land. (Exodus 23:31-33).
2/ Jesus insisted that his mission was “solely for the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15-4. )
3/ Jesus commanded his disciples to share the good news with none but their fellow Jews: “Go nowhere near the Gentiles & do not enter the city of the Samaritans” (Matthew 10:5-6)
4/ As Jesus said to a non-Jew “Let the children (Jews) be fed first for it is not right to take the children`s bread & throw it to the dogs” (Mark 7:27)
5/ His commands to “turn the other cheek” & “love your enemies” relates strictly to other Torah observant Jews.
His objective of freeing Roman Palestine of the pagans is summed up in Matthew 10:34. Jesus reportedly said “Do not think that I have come to bring peace but the sword.”
Other than predicting that his god (Yahweh) was going to come down to earth & establish his (Yahweh`s) kingdom in Jerusalem & free Palestine of the pagans & temple elite (bloodsuckers) ,during the lifetime of Jesus, his understanding of the world was that of a primitive religious zealot of which there were many in that same century.
2
Compassion and Justice, yes are values that move us to see others as worthy of dignity and care,to go out and walk the walk. My question is: can those values exist in a society of "nones" where capitalism's materialist profit- motivated self centeredness leave us bereft of alternative world views. As your column indicated religious Americans donate far more to charity than the" nones". If we give up the divisive, border making, bureaucratic aspects of all religions, do we also sacrifice the well of compassion and justice that these communities of faith are able to generate?
3
The problem is that we have to have structure for beliefs about how to live well to be transmitted through history - just as you need the NY Times to transmit your opinions. Yes, bureaucracies can become "evil," transmitting values that work against the efforts of people to live well, a clear and present danger in our current American political system. But there has to be a public identity to point to the higher values. In other words, the Church exists to keep Jesus visible and to do so, must constantly be renewing itself.
3
All religions have been hijacked from the tenets of their Founders who were really about kindness, love, tolerance, charity, forgiveness, social justice and above all, peace and harmony to all irrespective of their faiths. Unfortunately, dogma and bureaucracy crept in resulting in wars and killing. Ever since, all wars have been fought in the name of religions. The concept of my religion is better than yours has made our entire Planet chaotic. For those who are atheists or agnostics, more power to them. The fact that more millennials are following this path is the only ray of hope to end the nightmare we are in. Religion is not serving the purpose it was meant to. It is time to put it into the annals of history. It is time to take up a path of one's own moral values and social justice. " Do no harm " which is a Doctor's oath should become our oath too!!
3
Kristof's inquiry here is reflects our diverse society's new born realization that we really know about very little about religion. Religion has played such resounding roles throughout human history, and we know about its impact. Yet we don't understand the root of its power, and in today's America, we are often content to scratch our heads as to its meaning. We live in a country of immigrants bringing in religions and cultures from all over the world, we are just beginning to ask questions about what religions bring to bear in our personal and our communal lives.
In recent times we run from addressing these issues together. Teaching ABOUT religions in school is rare so as to avoid PROMOTING any one religion. This is a missed opportunity. It is important to develop strategies in public education for teaching about religion. If children could learn early on that they "don't have to be one to know one", it could serve to strengthen individual and communal identities. If children could ask questions early on, and adults don't flee, but instead educate themselves, they could lead children to asking more questions instead of closing their own minds early by avoiding the topic of religion althogether.
We all know Jesus was a jew. He was a leader in a religion which has historically answered questions with another question. When we learn to ask why? or why not? we learn to think and engage with others, which in turn leads us to compassionate acts, both big and small.
In recent times we run from addressing these issues together. Teaching ABOUT religions in school is rare so as to avoid PROMOTING any one religion. This is a missed opportunity. It is important to develop strategies in public education for teaching about religion. If children could learn early on that they "don't have to be one to know one", it could serve to strengthen individual and communal identities. If children could ask questions early on, and adults don't flee, but instead educate themselves, they could lead children to asking more questions instead of closing their own minds early by avoiding the topic of religion althogether.
We all know Jesus was a jew. He was a leader in a religion which has historically answered questions with another question. When we learn to ask why? or why not? we learn to think and engage with others, which in turn leads us to compassionate acts, both big and small.
2
Jesus would belong to the Roman Catholic Church in which he said to Peter upon this rock you will build my Church. Today there are over 1.2 billion members worldwide and growing.
Today Pope Francis made Mother Teresa of Calcutta a saint. She had been a saint to many of us for years in the way she lived her life among the destitute and poor in India. No one was beneath her and she saw Jesus in the simplest and lowliest of humans. She even picked up the dead bodies off the street in India while others turned their backs. How many of us would have the strength and courage to do the difficult and thankless tasks she performed on a daily basis. She was one of the most kind and caring human beings God ever created. She fought for the despised and forgotten her entire life and certainly deserved to be called Saint Teresa if anyone did
There were thousands upon thousands of Catholics in St. Peter's Square taking part in this wonderful celebration and I only wish I could have been among them. Catholics are so lucky to be able to now pray to this wonderful and beautiful woman who embodied humility and dignity. I will start praying to her that she intercedes for me today during Mass later this evening.
St. Teresa makes me so proud to be a Catholic and is an excellent example of piety which is so lacking in the world today. We are so lucky and fortunate to have this brilliant and loving woman as a role model for our Church.
Today Pope Francis made Mother Teresa of Calcutta a saint. She had been a saint to many of us for years in the way she lived her life among the destitute and poor in India. No one was beneath her and she saw Jesus in the simplest and lowliest of humans. She even picked up the dead bodies off the street in India while others turned their backs. How many of us would have the strength and courage to do the difficult and thankless tasks she performed on a daily basis. She was one of the most kind and caring human beings God ever created. She fought for the despised and forgotten her entire life and certainly deserved to be called Saint Teresa if anyone did
There were thousands upon thousands of Catholics in St. Peter's Square taking part in this wonderful celebration and I only wish I could have been among them. Catholics are so lucky to be able to now pray to this wonderful and beautiful woman who embodied humility and dignity. I will start praying to her that she intercedes for me today during Mass later this evening.
St. Teresa makes me so proud to be a Catholic and is an excellent example of piety which is so lacking in the world today. We are so lucky and fortunate to have this brilliant and loving woman as a role model for our Church.
3
It could be argued MT embodies the darkest aspect of religion; one that glorifies an abstract notion of suffering over actually helping people.
While sainthood is a great PR move by the "institution", a secular humanist is hard pressed to see the glory of insisting on substandard care (re-used syringes, not distinguishing between the dying and those that could be saved, washing soiled sheets with the dishes, failing to quarantine TB patients, blocking contraception and abortion, providing baptism instead of medicine, taking funds from bad people and then keeping it from the suffering).
Hypocrisy is the hardest pill to swallow: the advanced medical care MT received (heart valve, pacemaker, etc) seems a lot different than the beautiful suffering she presided over at her own institutions.
While sainthood is a great PR move by the "institution", a secular humanist is hard pressed to see the glory of insisting on substandard care (re-used syringes, not distinguishing between the dying and those that could be saved, washing soiled sheets with the dishes, failing to quarantine TB patients, blocking contraception and abortion, providing baptism instead of medicine, taking funds from bad people and then keeping it from the suffering).
Hypocrisy is the hardest pill to swallow: the advanced medical care MT received (heart valve, pacemaker, etc) seems a lot different than the beautiful suffering she presided over at her own institutions.
2
Isn't Pride one of the seven deadly sins?
Really? So he'd have given up his cloak and sandals for billions of dollars worth of real estate, fancy garments, fancy painting, sculpture and jewelry; covered up for pederast priests sexually abusing little choir boys, and waged war and bloody inquisitions on anyone who had the gall to believe in something else? That Catholic Church?
Put aside the question of whether the miracles happened? A fine idea, apart from the problem of the entire region being based on one: the resurrection.
1
In my opinion. Jesus would not belong to any religion because he was religion and would be treated now like he was then.
1
One clarification is in order Mr. Kristof. You say that "on average religions Americans donate far more to charity...than secular Americans do." I assume this statistic includes their religious tithings.
This is nothing more than club dues. Financial backing for a vast church bureaucracy is not charity. It's a terrible waste of resources.
This is nothing more than club dues. Financial backing for a vast church bureaucracy is not charity. It's a terrible waste of resources.
42
We live in a very chaotic world, religion offers solace but in reality organized religion causes more hatred then actual good. Very few individuals know that ethics matter and being a mensch is paramount. These two qualities are more important than all the religious nonsense.
1
He'd be a Jew of his time and not a figure of worship: "You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,…"
New American Standard Bible
New American Standard Bible
10
The most outspoken American Christians are to Jesus what drag queens are to femininity: an elaborate, often comic, sometimes grotesque, even ironically defiant caricature or distortion of what they purport to represent.
It's doubtful whether Jesus Himself, assuming for the sake of argument that such a man actually existed, would ally to any specific religion, except possibly the way Lincoln once famously stated it: "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion."
It's doubtful whether Jesus Himself, assuming for the sake of argument that such a man actually existed, would ally to any specific religion, except possibly the way Lincoln once famously stated it: "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion."
6
"A Marginal Jew" a massive three volume tome by John Paul Meier, a Catholic priest, indicates that the man we call Jesus, and many were called "Jesus", didn't want to create a new religion. He simply wanted to change Judaism, to make it rational and workable for the poor and the weak instead of just for the wealthy and powerful, something that Martin Luther King Jr. was also assassinated for, and something that Hillary Clinton should keep in mind as she takes office.
12
The opinion of a heretic, speaking as a Catholic.
The clear orthodox view was far greater than this pathetic summary of why Christ came to Earth, his life, death and Resurrection.
The clear orthodox view was far greater than this pathetic summary of why Christ came to Earth, his life, death and Resurrection.
2
Then how do you explain the blood libel against the Jewish people that has infected Christian doctrine for centuries until Vatican II started the long road trying to end it, that it was the Pharisees who killed him -- the Pharisees being the largest faction of Judaism? The Pharisees WERE the Jewish faction predominant among the poor and weaker classes and the rank and file. The faction prominent among the rich and the priesthood (which supposedly coordinated his death with the Romans) were the Sadducees.
If here were with us today, he would be Jewish. His teachings resemble modern rabbinical Judaism much more than it resembles the old sacerdotal Judaism of the Sanhedrin.
15
"then maybe the solution is to fret less about doctrines and more about actions."
It is doctrine which informs us about actions to take.
As an old time Dutch Reformed Christian (now Presbyterian) It was the teaching from the Confession and Catechism that kept me linked to the links to my theological past and my future actions based on what I'd learned.
50 years ago or more in some denominations the Confessions and Catechisms were abandoned or reworded to reflect changing mores in the secular culture. The old Mainline churches are fading fast while the traditional churches grow every year. What need has one of church teaching when it confirms our cultural understanding? In traditional churches the belief in an institution that stands outside of the secular church is what draws and keeps it people. One can see it in congregational statistics where in traditional Presbyterian churches Sunday School attendance, permanent commissioned missionaries and tithing are three times higher than in the dying church that came to America.That church emphasizes do gooder missions while neglecting worship. The hymnals have been bowdlerized and preaching has become 15 -20 minutes of social justice exhortation as the replacement for the Gospel of transcendence. No, good works are not to be ignored but neither are they to be the sole (soul) purpose of the church. God called a people (Ekklesia) to worship Him (John 3:23). That worship will inform our actions.
It is doctrine which informs us about actions to take.
As an old time Dutch Reformed Christian (now Presbyterian) It was the teaching from the Confession and Catechism that kept me linked to the links to my theological past and my future actions based on what I'd learned.
50 years ago or more in some denominations the Confessions and Catechisms were abandoned or reworded to reflect changing mores in the secular culture. The old Mainline churches are fading fast while the traditional churches grow every year. What need has one of church teaching when it confirms our cultural understanding? In traditional churches the belief in an institution that stands outside of the secular church is what draws and keeps it people. One can see it in congregational statistics where in traditional Presbyterian churches Sunday School attendance, permanent commissioned missionaries and tithing are three times higher than in the dying church that came to America.That church emphasizes do gooder missions while neglecting worship. The hymnals have been bowdlerized and preaching has become 15 -20 minutes of social justice exhortation as the replacement for the Gospel of transcendence. No, good works are not to be ignored but neither are they to be the sole (soul) purpose of the church. God called a people (Ekklesia) to worship Him (John 3:23). That worship will inform our actions.
1
It was the catechism of the Presbyterian church that helped set me on the road to atheism. I still remember as a 10 year old thinking it was like brain washing memorizing the question and the the answer. That combined with the ignorance but well meaning Sunday school teachers who did not recognize the contradictions in what they taught. So while having the highest marks in the school what I learned was to question what was being taught.
"Fairy tales can come true, it can happen to you..." especially if you run into one of Voltaire's species of snake oil salesmen or, as he put it,
"The first clergyman was the first rascal who met the first fool".
God, whatever he/she/it may be, might be around somewhere but certainly not in the toxic screeds that espouse "my way or the highway" when it comes to "eternal salvation".
And why is this "all powerful being" eternally short of cash?
Great column about this pervasive force which does nothing but impede the human path to enlightenment and self fulfillment, as "reason, science and logic" appear to be the antithesis of organized religion.
The sooner humans shed themselves of this extra burden, the better off we will all be.
"The first clergyman was the first rascal who met the first fool".
God, whatever he/she/it may be, might be around somewhere but certainly not in the toxic screeds that espouse "my way or the highway" when it comes to "eternal salvation".
And why is this "all powerful being" eternally short of cash?
Great column about this pervasive force which does nothing but impede the human path to enlightenment and self fulfillment, as "reason, science and logic" appear to be the antithesis of organized religion.
The sooner humans shed themselves of this extra burden, the better off we will all be.
14
Clearly an athiest, but can't argue his position at all. But he doesn't care about his existential place in the universe.
Terrible for him.
Terrible for him.
1
“Jesus never mentioned gays or abortion but focused on the sick and the poor, yet some Christian leaders have prospered by demonizing gays….This may seem an unusual column for me to write, for I’m not a particularly religious Christian.”
Mr. Kristof is not very familiar with the Bible as evidenced by his comment that Jesus never mentioned gays or abortion. In fact, Jesus expressly reaffirmed ALL the Laws of Moses as part of his “message” (See Matthew 5: 17-18). These laws included the death penalty by stoning for gays, adulterers, idolaters, and killing of a fetus. What adroitly set Jesus apart was his command that “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” (John 8: 7) Thus—because according to the Bible we are all sinners—he left the punishment of sinners to his god. So instead of being stoned to death, sinners receive the blessing of eternal hell unless they receive divine forgiveness ex post facto after jumping through various ill-defined hoops. Finally, to answer Mr. Kristof’s question: According to the New Testament Jesus was born to a Jewish mother and thus by local law and custom he was Jewish. What his religious beliefs were remains a mystery based on the contradictory comments ascribed to him in the four gospels.
Here are three links with all the details.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible
http://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html
http://jesusisajew.org/Jesus_is_a_Jew.php
Mr. Kristof is not very familiar with the Bible as evidenced by his comment that Jesus never mentioned gays or abortion. In fact, Jesus expressly reaffirmed ALL the Laws of Moses as part of his “message” (See Matthew 5: 17-18). These laws included the death penalty by stoning for gays, adulterers, idolaters, and killing of a fetus. What adroitly set Jesus apart was his command that “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” (John 8: 7) Thus—because according to the Bible we are all sinners—he left the punishment of sinners to his god. So instead of being stoned to death, sinners receive the blessing of eternal hell unless they receive divine forgiveness ex post facto after jumping through various ill-defined hoops. Finally, to answer Mr. Kristof’s question: According to the New Testament Jesus was born to a Jewish mother and thus by local law and custom he was Jewish. What his religious beliefs were remains a mystery based on the contradictory comments ascribed to him in the four gospels.
Here are three links with all the details.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible
http://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html
http://jesusisajew.org/Jesus_is_a_Jew.php
5
"Jesus never mentioned gays or abortion but focused on the sick and the poor, yet some Christian leaders have prospered by demonizing gays".
Whah?? Yes, they've prospered by demonizing gays but haven't they've also even more successfully prospered demonizing abortion?!!
Frank Schaeffer's "Crazy For God" is the front row seat resource describing his own role leveraging protestant evangelicalism into anti-abortion politics...Please read it.
Whah?? Yes, they've prospered by demonizing gays but haven't they've also even more successfully prospered demonizing abortion?!!
Frank Schaeffer's "Crazy For God" is the front row seat resource describing his own role leveraging protestant evangelicalism into anti-abortion politics...Please read it.
6
And while you're at it, read the column by a writer from India whose name I can't seem to remember who is challenging the wonderous adulation and canonization of Mother Theresa. Her stinginess and adherence to ridiculous ideas about abortions and birth control in the midst of such enormous suffering. Crusts of old bread. Not using her funds for medication and better food.
If Jesus were alive today I am certain he would be an atheist, in alignment with Lawrence Krauss and Sam Harris.
If Jesus were alive today I am certain he would be an atheist, in alignment with Lawrence Krauss and Sam Harris.
2
You're right - slaughtering innocent babies is obviously in keeping with Christ's teachings. What a huge mistake by Christians to not support this genocide.
2
When I was in Rome with my 13-year old son I took him to St. Peter's square and the Vatican. As we stood in the midst of all that splendor and magnificence, I asked him: "Do you think you get to build buildings like this by championing the cause of the poor and meek?"
The Christian Church sold its soul in the fourth century when it allied itself with Roman emperors, senators, and the elite. It has been that way ever since.
State-building and conquest are built into the fabric of Islam's teachings. You don't create vast empires (as the Muslims did in the seventh-ninth centuries) helping the poor and empathizing with the downtrodden. You do the downtreading.
Finally almost nothing verifiable is known about the lives and teachings of the "real" Jesus or Muhammad. All is murk and fog. They are only visible through deep layers of mythological and magical overlay. Some scholars doubt they even existed at all.
So sorry, Nicholas, nice try, but human-made religion displays all the traits of human-made institutions, including hierarchy, greed, and the quest for power. Religions have added an extra layer of hypocrisy, just for good measure.
The most encouraging note in this article is that "nones" have reached 25% of the population, especially among millennials. My son can be counted among them, I am proud to say. In response to my question in Rome, he replied (correctly) "No, Dad, you get to build buildings like this by exploiting the poor and the meek." That's my boy!
The Christian Church sold its soul in the fourth century when it allied itself with Roman emperors, senators, and the elite. It has been that way ever since.
State-building and conquest are built into the fabric of Islam's teachings. You don't create vast empires (as the Muslims did in the seventh-ninth centuries) helping the poor and empathizing with the downtrodden. You do the downtreading.
Finally almost nothing verifiable is known about the lives and teachings of the "real" Jesus or Muhammad. All is murk and fog. They are only visible through deep layers of mythological and magical overlay. Some scholars doubt they even existed at all.
So sorry, Nicholas, nice try, but human-made religion displays all the traits of human-made institutions, including hierarchy, greed, and the quest for power. Religions have added an extra layer of hypocrisy, just for good measure.
The most encouraging note in this article is that "nones" have reached 25% of the population, especially among millennials. My son can be counted among them, I am proud to say. In response to my question in Rome, he replied (correctly) "No, Dad, you get to build buildings like this by exploiting the poor and the meek." That's my boy!
31
Another atheist using tired explanations about why the Catholic Church is just another "group".
And I have to say, to teach your children that beauty and creation can come from exploiting the "poor" is such an ignorant teaching, it is nothing other than abuse of a child's mind. Disgusting.
And I have to say, to teach your children that beauty and creation can come from exploiting the "poor" is such an ignorant teaching, it is nothing other than abuse of a child's mind. Disgusting.
2
Ah, the odds are pretty good that Jesus never existed other than a composite from the minds of religious writers, so asking what a fictional person would have done is pretty impossible.
Of course, if we actually used real people who have done wonderful things for the very poor, we would be accused of being socialistic, communistic, haters of the rich, so instead we get this drivel about unreal made up historical characters.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene
Of course, if we actually used real people who have done wonderful things for the very poor, we would be accused of being socialistic, communistic, haters of the rich, so instead we get this drivel about unreal made up historical characters.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene
6
I would be much happier with a more nature and woman centric belief system. Our very survival may depend on respect for water, land and creatures with science attached to these core realities; may this rise to belief. Today's Christianity worships and feeds on suffering with women receiving a larger share of the pain. Only the Far East's philosophies/religions come close to the ecosystem as sanctity. It alone is a miracle.
Jesus might have started his own new religion don't you think? Or none. Or he might have become a John Glenn like figure. Or joined a religion and lapsed. Or become a physicist. Or a comedian.
Jesus might have started his own new religion don't you think? Or none. Or he might have become a John Glenn like figure. Or joined a religion and lapsed. Or become a physicist. Or a comedian.
2
You touch on something I wrote and was not posted. Women are glaringly absent from the ranks of major religions. Religion, starting with He as God, is a boy's club designed to control. Women don't seem to feel the need to start cults of followers, do they? Why are they so prone to drink the Kool-ade?????
1
I ma ashamed to say that religion today does not extol the teaching of the prophets that they profess to represent. Jesus would be much more into the helping of the less advantaged and trying to raise up the awareness as to the problems and plights of those in Syria and other immigrants trying to find shelter and a peaceful way of life. He and all religious people should concentrate more on filling the needs of the less fortunate instead of trying to make their way of life the only way and trying to foment discord and hate around the world--we all need the mentality to spread the forces of inclusion and love and help around ourselves and the rest of the world.
6
Jesus was an Eastern mystic who taught peace, love and charity toward all. His teachings fell on rocky ground with the lineal and literal Greeks and other Westerners, who took up his teachings and turned it into that most Western of religions. In the US, and in our time, we have tried to remove --with remarkable success-- every vestige of true spirituality. We pray not to seek union with or perhaps a glimpse of the One. No, we seek alms or intercession by a mighty overlord who, luckily, looks just like us. If the Jesus we see invoked in our churches and on TV were to come back, perhaps, as Jim and Tammy once said, "He'd build a water park!" I'm pretty certain that he'd also be packing a Desert Eagle!
10
Superb column, especially for a Sunday.
As a lapsed Catholic, I remember when doctrinaire Catholics and liberation theology Catholics at least managed to tolerate each other and coexist at mass each week.
The trouble seemed to start somewhere in the post-1960s, with a fusion of doctrinaire conservative religion and rigid ideological right-wing politics.
It was not only in Catholicism. Religious conservatives from all 3 major religions became ascendant in many parts of the world and welded their religion to politics. Their fusion of politics-as-religion was what Kristof listed in his last paragraph: doctrinaire, bureaucratic, drawing inspiration from rituals and rules, and using these as weapons against others to achieve power, not spiritual understanding.
As a result, many of our organized religions took a sharp intolerant turn to the right and left us more liberal-progressive types; so many of us left religion. Power-oriented rather than spiritual, both religion and politics deteriorated to a lot of conflict and ingroup-outgroup behavior.
This country was founded by a bunch of deists inspired by the European enlightenment, based on values of tolerance, respect for differences, humanitarianism, fairness, and justice. Separation of church and state was essential to the founders. Now can we see why?
The key is tolerance for differences. The world needs another enlightenment, and this time around include respect for nature.
As a lapsed Catholic, I remember when doctrinaire Catholics and liberation theology Catholics at least managed to tolerate each other and coexist at mass each week.
The trouble seemed to start somewhere in the post-1960s, with a fusion of doctrinaire conservative religion and rigid ideological right-wing politics.
It was not only in Catholicism. Religious conservatives from all 3 major religions became ascendant in many parts of the world and welded their religion to politics. Their fusion of politics-as-religion was what Kristof listed in his last paragraph: doctrinaire, bureaucratic, drawing inspiration from rituals and rules, and using these as weapons against others to achieve power, not spiritual understanding.
As a result, many of our organized religions took a sharp intolerant turn to the right and left us more liberal-progressive types; so many of us left religion. Power-oriented rather than spiritual, both religion and politics deteriorated to a lot of conflict and ingroup-outgroup behavior.
This country was founded by a bunch of deists inspired by the European enlightenment, based on values of tolerance, respect for differences, humanitarianism, fairness, and justice. Separation of church and state was essential to the founders. Now can we see why?
The key is tolerance for differences. The world needs another enlightenment, and this time around include respect for nature.
47
Having spent most of the last 5 years working in Saudi Arabia, I rejoice to be back in my homeland, where we can have a discussion like this and so many different views can be expressed freely.
42
...or Jesus and Mohammed would both grow tired of their respective "second comings" and having to listen to their followers' hypocrisy and give up on religion altogether.
16
Agreed.
1
Well, HRC is Christian and she hangs, out of view, with the ultrarich (see NYT) ... Donny T is Christian and is in plain full view every day in many public places regardless ... at this rate Donny T might well acquire the White House, still not impossible. For a cheeky peek behind closed doors at a gleefully irreverent Halloween there under Donny T, playwright Dick Weber's no-holds-barred romp AW, DONNY! is spot-on unforgettable political satire (like Brecht meets the Marx Bros - check it out on Medium). Ridicule is a radiating weapon. HRC superPac Priorities USA should post that playscript for free downloads, as its devastating effect is long lasting, unlike pricey TV ads that can evaporate in a few days. Donny T fooled millions in the primaries, the voters' fault. Fooling millions more now, he's developing a political business model. We may yet have to resign ourselves to a Donny T White House …
1
Neither Hillary Clinton (who I will vote for) or Donald J. Trump are "Christians". They are the money changers in the Temple Jesus would have trashed.
4
Spare us the apartheid comparisons. Burma is only taking those precautions to protect themselves from future demographic instability. Don't know about Jesus, but Mohammed would likely choose Buddhism these days.
3
Along with France and The Netherlands, New Zealand is progressing rapidly to a point where adherents of Christianity will form a distinct minority.
6
Thank you, Mr. Kristof. I'd like to add the question, "Into what religion would Jesus be born?" As a Christian, I find Jesus' birth as a Jew in 1st century Palestine noteworthy: born in occupied territory, a member of an oppressed religious group, conceived in an insignificant girl with questionable marital status, an infant refugee because his life was sought by a power-hungry ruler of the empire, and tortured and killed by state-sanctioned means. Though Judaism had its own issues with rigid establishment, it was certainly not the group with power, evidenced by Roman occupation, Jewish uprisings, and Rome's swift and terrible responses to them (crucifixion, violent destruction of the Temple, etc). Jesus having been born a Jew in that time evidences the distinctive story of God entering the world in a surprisingly powerless way, upsetting our notions of power which are so often tied up with the establishment. When I consider who Jesus might be today, without intending to lose the historical connection to the Jewish people (Jesus was indeed a Jew), I think about similarly oppressed and occupied peoples/religions. I imagine Jesus born a Muslim in the occupied West Bank, for example. In the story of Jesus the Jew, I learn to see God in the oppressed and suffering, in the poor and outcast, in the hated and powerless. I believe Christianity goes beyond ethics, but that way of seeing God drives me to live the kind of life you describe that fills you with a holy sense of awe.
18
While I share the same sense of repulsion at the ways Christianity had been used as a vehicle for hate and retrogressive policy over the past decades and past centuries, we should be careful not to see the solution as being to "relativize" or "humanize" the message of Jesus, i.e. to simply pick the parts we like and downplay the parts we don't. While Jesus was extremely loving and gentle with those who were outcasts due to their sexual behavior, he didn't condone their behavior, rather he condemned the way the elites has used it as an excuse to marginalize people and puff up their own vanity. If you read his encounter with the woman at the well in Samaria, his message isn't "do what makes you happy", but rather "you are welcome and loved despite what you have done". Thus he sees through the behavior to the person underneath while still setting a very high moral bar. It's an extremely challenging message to those on both the political left and right.
5
For some reason I can't up vote your comment.
wo a doubt, jesus would be a Scientologist
it worked for cruise, it worked for greta van sustern, it worked for travolta, it would work for jesus
3
Jesus would not belong to any religion.Religion is the root cause of bigotry & oppression.If there was no organized religion the standard of living through out the world would progress more rapidly & not be held back by archaic concepts that are outdated.What the world needs desperately is freedom from religion.
22
A friend of mine loved to refer to "the first epistle of Paul the apostle."
1
Your last paragraph says it all for me. Thanks for this thoughtful and challenging op-ed.
Although I was baptized a Catholic as an infant and have been a practicing Catholic all my 70-plus years, I have remained in the church primarily because of what I call "the saints," and I am not talking about those canonized as saints in Rome or specifically about Catholics that have led inspiring lives.
Like you, my inspiration has come from "a Catholic missionary doctor in Sudan treating bomb victims, an evangelical physician achieving the impossible in rural Angola, a rabbi battling for Palestinians’ human rights..." I have been especially inspired by those committed to justice (e.g., Dr. Martin Luther King), setting things aright, regardless of their religious affiliation, or none at all. These folks mediate the presence of God in our world by their actions, inspiring awe and gratitude, much more effectively than doctrines or rituals or religious hierarchs.
Although I was baptized a Catholic as an infant and have been a practicing Catholic all my 70-plus years, I have remained in the church primarily because of what I call "the saints," and I am not talking about those canonized as saints in Rome or specifically about Catholics that have led inspiring lives.
Like you, my inspiration has come from "a Catholic missionary doctor in Sudan treating bomb victims, an evangelical physician achieving the impossible in rural Angola, a rabbi battling for Palestinians’ human rights..." I have been especially inspired by those committed to justice (e.g., Dr. Martin Luther King), setting things aright, regardless of their religious affiliation, or none at all. These folks mediate the presence of God in our world by their actions, inspiring awe and gratitude, much more effectively than doctrines or rituals or religious hierarchs.
14
Jesus would be Jewish, or are you saying he got it wrong the first time?
22
Wasn't he just born that way?
1
Jesus would be a member of the Society of Friends.
This is my second post of this. I'm not sure why my first comment wasn't posted.
This is my second post of this. I'm not sure why my first comment wasn't posted.
7
Humans don't subscribe to religious beliefs merely on whim or for the fun of it. The organised religions fill a human craving need for authoritative and authoritarian certainty, for comfort, solace and succour. Think of it as being a fanatical sports fan, or belonging to a local club, or sharing a hobby with like-minded others.
The religious offshoot of Judaism started by Jesus the carpenter of Bethlehem, Nazareth and Galilee, son of Mary and Joseph, was merely one of many at the time. Within a short time of Jesus' death, there was a battle for leadership between three men: James, brother of Jesus; Simon Peter; and Saul aka Paul, the son of a rich Tarsus tent maker who had used the family wealth to buy Roman citizenship.
The educated and clever letter writer, ambitious and wily chancer, arrogant and ruthless murderer, incurable psychopath and malignant narcissist won the day. The Church of Rome was born. Two millennia later, all of us are still suffering for it.
The religious offshoot of Judaism started by Jesus the carpenter of Bethlehem, Nazareth and Galilee, son of Mary and Joseph, was merely one of many at the time. Within a short time of Jesus' death, there was a battle for leadership between three men: James, brother of Jesus; Simon Peter; and Saul aka Paul, the son of a rich Tarsus tent maker who had used the family wealth to buy Roman citizenship.
The educated and clever letter writer, ambitious and wily chancer, arrogant and ruthless murderer, incurable psychopath and malignant narcissist won the day. The Church of Rome was born. Two millennia later, all of us are still suffering for it.
7
Wow! I've never been a fan of Paul but you are pretty harsh here. Curious about your sources. Oh, you forgot misogynist!
>The organised religions fill a human craving need for authoritative and authoritarian certainty, for comfort, solace and succour.
Man's only authority is his independent mind.
Man's only authority is his independent mind.
“One of the most religious countries on earth,” Stephen Prothero says in his book “Religious Literacy,” referring to the U.S., “is also a nation of religious illiterates.”
With no little irony, most "Islamic" terrorists are also religious illiterates, and know little or nothing of Islam.
With no little irony, most "Islamic" terrorists are also religious illiterates, and know little or nothing of Islam.
30
Agreed , as in: 46% Americans Believe In Creationism According To Latest Gallup Poll http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism
Forty six percent Americans believed in creationism, 32 percent believed in theistic evolution and 15 percent believed in evolution without any divine intervention. The data shows that the percent of Americans who believe in creationism has increased slightly by 2 percent over the last 30 years. The percent of Americans who believe in evolution has also increased by 6 percent over the last 30 years while the percent of Americans who believe in theistic evolution has decreased by 6 percent over the same time period.
Most educated people today see the natural world through the lens of science rather than the Bible. That shift in perspective is largely complete outside the United States,
A recent Gallup poll indicated that more than 100 million Americans are not ready to abandon the biblical understanding of the natural world, insisting that the Earth is but a few thousand years old and that humans were created in their present forms.
Forty six percent Americans believed in creationism, 32 percent believed in theistic evolution and 15 percent believed in evolution without any divine intervention. The data shows that the percent of Americans who believe in creationism has increased slightly by 2 percent over the last 30 years. The percent of Americans who believe in evolution has also increased by 6 percent over the last 30 years while the percent of Americans who believe in theistic evolution has decreased by 6 percent over the same time period.
Most educated people today see the natural world through the lens of science rather than the Bible. That shift in perspective is largely complete outside the United States,
A recent Gallup poll indicated that more than 100 million Americans are not ready to abandon the biblical understanding of the natural world, insisting that the Earth is but a few thousand years old and that humans were created in their present forms.
1
The temptation is to think that your understanding of Scripture is God's
understanding. And so you fall into the trap of editing out what you do not like
and overemphasising what you do like in Scripture.
And so you build your self-righteous castle where the light of God's Truth
become dimmer and dimmer and dimmer...
understanding. And so you fall into the trap of editing out what you do not like
and overemphasising what you do like in Scripture.
And so you build your self-righteous castle where the light of God's Truth
become dimmer and dimmer and dimmer...
7
What an odd question. Since Jesus remained Jewish to the day he died, I suspect no reason for a change of religion on his part. That "last supper", after all, was a Passover seder, nu?
23
Jesus would be welcomed into any Unitarian Universalist congregation, and feel right at home with their commitments to ecumenicalism, Love, ethical living and social action.
Oh wait, you said Organized religion? Never mind.
Oh wait, you said Organized religion? Never mind.
12
"...yet today some Islamic clerics bar women from driving, or cite religion as a reason to hack off the genitals of young girls..."
What about doing the same to young boys? Or is there suddenly a health benefit to that?
What about doing the same to young boys? Or is there suddenly a health benefit to that?
5
The "Majesterium," the Mullahs, the Taliban, many prominent Evangelicals, and Imams and on and on have perverted the love message of all the great religions and turned to selling fear and loathing. Abetted by the Glenn Becks, the "Prosperity Preachers", the Zionists, and other secular, political, and cultural leaders like the NRA, the NFL, Facebook - America is as drenched in phony piety as it is in phony patriotism. The thin veneer of religiosity has allowed this to work but people are wising up.
11
This piece is particularly egregious. Two martyred nuns were buried this weekend. Mr. Kristof should be talking about them, and how two women, devoted to Christ and poor children, came to be martyred right here in the United States of America.
3
I don't think Jesus would belong to any religion. His whole point was that religion was not the way to God. Rather obeying God, especially loving all people, was the way. He set us the example.
I have an abiding mistrust of organized religion...any organized religion that does good works only to convert hapless souls. Radical love seeks no return whatsoever and I don't think many religious figures then and now are willing to go that far into the unknown...to love simply to love.
6
A line from a recent sermon has stuck with me: "Why do we talk so much about what the Bible says so little, and so little about what the Bible says so much?"
11
Jesus wouldn't belong to any religion. Jesus would do what he did: fight injustice, cruelty, suffering, indifference. In Jesus' day who would have listened had he not allowed himself to be thought of as a Savoir/Son of God. We are moving (albeit too slowly) beyond needing a "God" to tell us what a just society looks like. This is a good thing: humans taking responsibility for their actions knowing absolution on Sunday morning doesn't exist.
8
"What Religion Would Jesus Belong To?"
The Apocalyptic Climate Change Religion, if he only read the New York Times.
The Apocalyptic Climate Change Religion, if he only read the New York Times.
2
Jesus, if what we are led to believe is true, was decidedly against organized religions. Isn't that why the Pharisees wanted him dead?
Jesus, in 2016, would decry all of the world's religions as abominations. In 2016 Jesus would be working on solutions for the poor and disenfranchised, perhaps as a scientist, or an entrepreneur, or a community organizer, or as a member of the Occupy movement or a movement like Black Lives Matter. He might even be a politician.
Jesus would understand, like no other, that mankind doesn't need religion as a dogmatic middleman to have a relationship with God.
Jesus, in 2016, would decry all of the world's religions as abominations. In 2016 Jesus would be working on solutions for the poor and disenfranchised, perhaps as a scientist, or an entrepreneur, or a community organizer, or as a member of the Occupy movement or a movement like Black Lives Matter. He might even be a politician.
Jesus would understand, like no other, that mankind doesn't need religion as a dogmatic middleman to have a relationship with God.
9
Jesus, if he existed at all, existed in a context which had on concept of the possibility that there was no GOD at all.
From the stories, he strikes me as both a rational and compassionate person. Were he to be born today I would not be in the least surprised to see him identify himself as an atheist with a highly developed moral sense.
From the stories, he strikes me as both a rational and compassionate person. Were he to be born today I would not be in the least surprised to see him identify himself as an atheist with a highly developed moral sense.
4
I think one of the cardinal reasons why Christianity seems so far-removed from Jesus was caused by the Roman Emperor Constantine.
He decreed that Rome would follow the new Christian faith.
Jesus had been, in a way, a rebel against Rome. He advocated on behalf of the persecuted Jews against Rome. When Rome became "Christian," when Christianity became a religion of Rulers, its philanthropic, charitable and rebellious impulses were silenced. Unlike Jesus, who plead for the rights of Jews, "Christianity" bequeathed to Europe 20 centuries of antisemitism.
The twenty centuries of European antisemitism includes Crusaders killing Jews (On their way to the holy land to kill Muslims, the Crusaders often slaughtered Jews), Europeans slaughtering Jews for allegedly causing the bubonic plague by poisoning the wells, "Christians" massacring entire Jewish communities because Jews, allegedly, killed Christian children to use their blood to make Matzoh, and, of course,the Holocaust.
He decreed that Rome would follow the new Christian faith.
Jesus had been, in a way, a rebel against Rome. He advocated on behalf of the persecuted Jews against Rome. When Rome became "Christian," when Christianity became a religion of Rulers, its philanthropic, charitable and rebellious impulses were silenced. Unlike Jesus, who plead for the rights of Jews, "Christianity" bequeathed to Europe 20 centuries of antisemitism.
The twenty centuries of European antisemitism includes Crusaders killing Jews (On their way to the holy land to kill Muslims, the Crusaders often slaughtered Jews), Europeans slaughtering Jews for allegedly causing the bubonic plague by poisoning the wells, "Christians" massacring entire Jewish communities because Jews, allegedly, killed Christian children to use their blood to make Matzoh, and, of course,the Holocaust.
5
Collaboration between religion and state (King and Cardinal) is anathema. Freedom to worship or not in our Constitution came about because the majority of the founders of this nation were persecuted Christians or their descendants.
Baptists, Congregationalists, Puritans, Huguenots, The Dutch, Quakers, Scots and others were all looking for a way out of the morass that was European culture ordered by the church and enforced by the government.
Baptists, Congregationalists, Puritans, Huguenots, The Dutch, Quakers, Scots and others were all looking for a way out of the morass that was European culture ordered by the church and enforced by the government.
Jesus would probably be a Reform Jew.
7
As a Jew, Jesus is the founder of Jews for Jesus.
3
Matthew 25: Anyone, Christian or not, religious or not, can feel the "call" of Matthew 25. The "righteous" are those who found humanity naked and clothed them, hungry and fed them, sick and nursed them, in prison and comforted them. The "damned" are those who walked away.
That is the life that Christ invites all of us to live.
Unfortunately, few of us, Christians or otherwise, do.
That is the life that Christ invites all of us to live.
Unfortunately, few of us, Christians or otherwise, do.
9
Daniel Lieberman, professor of evolutionary biology at Harvard University, tells Terry Gross in a Fresh Air interview “We evolved to crave sweet foods… Most wild fruits are about as sweet as a carrot. So we love sweetness, but until recently, pretty much the only food that we got that was sweet was honey…” He continues, “But now we have access to abundant quantities of sugar and simple carbohydrates, which we evolved to love because they're full of energy, but we don't have the metabolism. We don't have the bodies that are able to cope with those kinds of levels of sugar and the result is that we get sick.”
What if we think of religion in the same way? Just as we are working toward healthy, and still enjoyable, eating habits--ways to deal with this unhealthy evolutionary love of sugar--we might be able to seek transcendence and community in ways that consciously eradicate the tribalism that was once necessary for group survival and is now a disease-causing evolutionary holdover.
What if we think of religion in the same way? Just as we are working toward healthy, and still enjoyable, eating habits--ways to deal with this unhealthy evolutionary love of sugar--we might be able to seek transcendence and community in ways that consciously eradicate the tribalism that was once necessary for group survival and is now a disease-causing evolutionary holdover.
4
The longing for holiness is not about wanting to be 'holier than thou'. It is about wanting the love of God to permeate all of our life, and for that love to be shown through our lives to other people.
I found this quotation on a single sheet of paper among my father's things after his death. He was generous, compassionate, loved by his employees, visited the sick, repaired the homes of widows, comforted those in pain, gave more than ten percent of his income to help the oppressed -- and rarely spoke of his beliefs.
I tend to distrust those who proclaim their faith, yet understand some feel it is their obligation. And words without acts are just sounds.
I found this quotation on a single sheet of paper among my father's things after his death. He was generous, compassionate, loved by his employees, visited the sick, repaired the homes of widows, comforted those in pain, gave more than ten percent of his income to help the oppressed -- and rarely spoke of his beliefs.
I tend to distrust those who proclaim their faith, yet understand some feel it is their obligation. And words without acts are just sounds.
16
The problem with Christian evangelical salvation by grace theology is that it lets you off the hook. Why treat others well in this world if the only thing that is required is that you believe in Christ.. Did God place us here only to say the words I believe or are we also required to practice Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. it is an age old question, but somehow I sense that Grace and works in this world is required to live a good life. I am surely an imperfect being, but I do the best I can. If I am as God created me then God if there is such a power would see me just as I am.
3
A poor understanding of the Gospel.
Yes it is it is faith received by grace that saves but the bible also speaks of the works prepared by God before time for one to do.
Works do not save but are the result of faith which does save. Some call this the attitude of gratitude. One sees it throughout scripture in Jesus' parables such as the man who refused to forgive a debt though he had been forgiven of a dent 100 times higher. The much misinterpreted "Faith without works is dead" compels many in one faith tradition to conflate faith with works as the means to salvation because only this one verse is used when it is also part of a discussion beginning 10 verses back. It is about proving your faith to others with action not mere words. God needs no works for proof, he gave you the faith.
Yes it is it is faith received by grace that saves but the bible also speaks of the works prepared by God before time for one to do.
Works do not save but are the result of faith which does save. Some call this the attitude of gratitude. One sees it throughout scripture in Jesus' parables such as the man who refused to forgive a debt though he had been forgiven of a dent 100 times higher. The much misinterpreted "Faith without works is dead" compels many in one faith tradition to conflate faith with works as the means to salvation because only this one verse is used when it is also part of a discussion beginning 10 verses back. It is about proving your faith to others with action not mere words. God needs no works for proof, he gave you the faith.
So much of our current US society is dysfunctional. COMPASSION is probably the only correct definition of a religion. Assisting the "other" in our daily world is loving all of our creation, with its complexities. Promote peaceful protest rather than physical confrontation. Participate in daily quiet discernment time to gain understanding. Using your intellect and skills to solve our current problems, has to be "loving your God with your whole heart, mind, and soul. Praying for the Peace of the World. Yes, there seems to be a need for ACTIVE religious individuals and institutions. Who else will do it? Are there any atheist groups supporting orphanages? What is your mission statement for a mean spirited world?
8
This is certainly odd speculation concerning a person who in all probability never even existed. No contemporary accounts exist, no artifacts, nothing. Even Paul's
writings do not describe events that took place on earth. Wouldn't it be better to treat others with kindness and compassion without worrying about wether or not we are in compliance with a very confusing moral code?
Consider a few requirements for a soul to enter heaven..."Sell all you have and come follow me". "You must hate your father and mother." "You must become as little child". "You must be born again". No sane person would even consider attempting these trials. But they certainly give the pious plenty of ammunition in their attempts to control the lives of others.
writings do not describe events that took place on earth. Wouldn't it be better to treat others with kindness and compassion without worrying about wether or not we are in compliance with a very confusing moral code?
Consider a few requirements for a soul to enter heaven..."Sell all you have and come follow me". "You must hate your father and mother." "You must become as little child". "You must be born again". No sane person would even consider attempting these trials. But they certainly give the pious plenty of ammunition in their attempts to control the lives of others.
5
Your characterization Jesus as “a radical who challenged the establishment” is simplistic, simplistic to the point of being offensive. He challenged a religious establishment that he saw as authentic, which does not mean that all religious establishments are corrupt. He clearly recognized the sound leadership of the prophets and patriarchs who had preceded him. The biblical and historical evidence that he established through the Apostles a hierarchical Church is overwhelming. “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesian 4:11-13).
You want to pick and choose minor aspects of Christianity and warp them to suit your ideology. For example, Jesus Christ never argued that the state should care for the poor; he argued that we as individuals should care for the poor. You reject the Christianity of others as inauthentic and then propose that much of the substance of Christianity, miracles for example, be treated as irrelevant. Of course, I believe that my particular faith in Christ is the most authentic, but unlike you I am not in the business of public rejecting the faith or the Christian bona fides of others.
You want to pick and choose minor aspects of Christianity and warp them to suit your ideology. For example, Jesus Christ never argued that the state should care for the poor; he argued that we as individuals should care for the poor. You reject the Christianity of others as inauthentic and then propose that much of the substance of Christianity, miracles for example, be treated as irrelevant. Of course, I believe that my particular faith in Christ is the most authentic, but unlike you I am not in the business of public rejecting the faith or the Christian bona fides of others.
3
Should have read ...a religious establishment he saw as inauthentic and corrupt...
I need to stop using cut and paste.
I need to stop using cut and paste.
Until religion remains an enlightening experience and the way of compassionate life it continues to be a guiding faith but once it acquies an organised form with rigid doctrinal stance, it ceases to be religion, eclipsing even the founder messenger and the message itself. Obviously then all the founders of great religions, including Jesus, stand strangers in the eyes of the followers due to the chasm caused by the intermediaries.
3
Personally, I think Jesus would still be Jewish. Maybe Reform Jewish, but a follower of Hillel and Jewish, nonetheless.
11
Excellent article. Because of extremist forces in almost every religion garnering the majority of the headlines, I think the basic moral tenets of most of them get lost from view. Why doesn't the NYT publish a small bio a day of someone inspiring whose actions embody the more accepting, communal side of religions? The doctor, physician and Rabbi you cite in your penultimate sentence would be a fantastic place to start . . .
5
As an atheist myself, I think the few posts suggesting that Jesus would of course have been an atheist today, in deference to atheism's supposed improvement over faith, are thoroughly wrongheaded. Atheism is not proof against the ideology disease, and in the killing department - witness Stalin and Mao - atheists can hold their own against the (admittedly strong) religious competition.
1
That’s where I see our path,” Jacobs said. “People have seen ritual as an obsession for the religious community, and they haven’t seen the courage and commitment to shaping a more just and compassionate world.”
Amen, brother.
Amen, brother.
2
I have no idea what religion he would be.
But he would have voted for Sander's.
But he would have voted for Sander's.
11
Jesus would be the religion he was in his lifetime, his entire lifetime, and that is Jewish, Jesus in his lifetime never heard of Christianity because Christianity did not exist during his lifetime it started coalesce 20 to 30 years after his death in a much different form that we have today. The most eminent independent schoolars including Catholic and Jewish agree on this. Every thing Jesus spoke of and referred to was Jewish, when asked if they should follow the law i.e. the old testament, Jesus said ""every jot and tittle""surprising in light of the that fact is the old testament is is full of practices most would believe at a minimum barbaric and cruel in the light of history
2
Not only would Jesus not belong to any of the current world religions in their present state, he'd be shunned as a heretic - or a lunatic - by all of them and they'd publicly denounce him, brand him as mentally ill, or worse.
9
Jesus never mentioned gays, abortion or anything else because he, the Jesus of the Gospels, never existed. In fact, Joseph Orbi, in his book Kickin' Santa - Atheists and the matter of Fact https://youtu.be/8Uw4879W6u0 gives away his house and bank account to anyone who provides proof (outside the New Testament) of a historical Jesus. Mr. Orbi does not plan to move any time soon.
What I find interesting is that in this 21 Century you still have people espousing superstition and lies to promote a collection of "faiths" based on fiction. It is time that people start reading history and learning the facts behind the legends instead of simply repeating what they heard at mass, Sunday service, etc.
So stop trying to figure out what would "Jesus" have said. You might as well try to guess what's behind Mickey Mouse's big ears.
What I find interesting is that in this 21 Century you still have people espousing superstition and lies to promote a collection of "faiths" based on fiction. It is time that people start reading history and learning the facts behind the legends instead of simply repeating what they heard at mass, Sunday service, etc.
So stop trying to figure out what would "Jesus" have said. You might as well try to guess what's behind Mickey Mouse's big ears.
5
In his book "Christianity" Paul Johnson describes the early church in the 2nd and 3rd centuries from Roman writings saying that the Christians were shaming the Romans by taking care of the poor, the sick and the elderly. It wasn't until the 4th century that the church started becoming predominantly rule oriented and legalistic. It "progressed" (if we can call it that) to assembling a bible, identifying heresies and persecuting heretics.
From an historical perspective, the diversion didn't take long.
From an historical perspective, the diversion didn't take long.
1
God, protect me from your people
5
If Christianity drifts from the teachings of Christ, it drift from itself, its own inner essence -- and that is what has happened. As an atheist who, because they offered an affordable, better education, was sent by his parents to religious schools, I was always drawn to Jesus's example, and his own words. Here was a rebel who subverted the secular Roman powers in Judea, and questioned his own traditional Jewish religious teachings in a profound and transformative manner. Judge not, that ye be not judged. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Suffer the little children to come unto me. That Jesus I read about in the Bible, and saw in filmstrips in my religion classes, was a man I admired with all my heart. How shocked I was to find, on growing up, that the vast majority of those who loudly proclaimed themselves "Christians" rejected the fundamental teachings of the man they claimed as God. They hated, they judged, they loved their neighbors not at all, and yet they hung the cross of Christ upon their walls, and sang his praises every Sunday.
14
It is much better to be a spiritual being than a slave to religion.
5
Sadly, controversy sells. So yes, the so-called "Christian Right" (which, like the Moral Majority, is neither) dominates the "public eye," while more moderate (and sensible...and theologically correct) voices are largely ignored.
As a small-e evangelical minister, it pains me to watch how those in the public eye simply end up giving an even worse name to Christianity than it (at least currently) deserves. Many of them are what we call "Old Testament Christians" who cherry-pick Scripture, taking it out of context to support narrow, often unloving, and even un-Christian positions. Many of them would not know Jesus if He bit them on the ear.
As for faith and doctrine, there is an old saying: Religion is about laws, statutes and behavior; faith is about a relationship with God (and, in the case of Christianity, Jesus). In my two decades of ministry, I have found that for people with faith, there IS a place for doctrine, and the two work together. However, for "doctrinaire" Christians, their dogma often adversely "colors" their faith, and sometimes even replaces it.
If one is going to self-identify as "Christ-ian," then one would assume to be trying to live a "Christ-like" life, based on the eleven precepts of His ministry: love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice and truth. Yes, one will "fail," sometimes often. But if one is not trying to live this life, one is not honest in calling oneself a "Christian."
As a small-e evangelical minister, it pains me to watch how those in the public eye simply end up giving an even worse name to Christianity than it (at least currently) deserves. Many of them are what we call "Old Testament Christians" who cherry-pick Scripture, taking it out of context to support narrow, often unloving, and even un-Christian positions. Many of them would not know Jesus if He bit them on the ear.
As for faith and doctrine, there is an old saying: Religion is about laws, statutes and behavior; faith is about a relationship with God (and, in the case of Christianity, Jesus). In my two decades of ministry, I have found that for people with faith, there IS a place for doctrine, and the two work together. However, for "doctrinaire" Christians, their dogma often adversely "colors" their faith, and sometimes even replaces it.
If one is going to self-identify as "Christ-ian," then one would assume to be trying to live a "Christ-like" life, based on the eleven precepts of His ministry: love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice and truth. Yes, one will "fail," sometimes often. But if one is not trying to live this life, one is not honest in calling oneself a "Christian."
14
Please don't lay Christian fundamentalism at the feet of the "Old" Testament. Whatever rules it laid down for the Jews, the Hebrew Bible invented the God of love, after all.
Or didn't you know that?
Or didn't you know that?
To paraphrase something about religions I read long ago that stayed with me went something like this: Through the ages the great mystics are in agreement regarding the nature of Ultimate Reality. They agree that there is a transcendent reality whose explanation is beyond words and thus can only be know through direct personal experience. And that experience leads to a spiritual awakening; an in depth understanding and realization that's beyond words but that immediately transforms the inner and outer life of those who experience it. (Many who have had a near death experience also describe something similar.) In the Christian Bible supposedly Paul had a transformational experience on his way to Damascus. This view goes on to say that while mystics agree on the nature of Ultimate Reality, the various religions their teachings gave birth to disagree. And that's because their teachings were misunderstood and misconstrued by non transcendent beings and by humans who used the various forms of religious dogma to gain power and control.
3
Assuming Jesus had a chance to get a good education, and perhaps had a chance to read some history of the last 2000 years, he'd probably be an atheist. What could possibly be meant by "religious literacy"? Why shouldn't Joan of Arc be Noah's wife? I mean, except that one was a real person and one was made up. Would it matter, as long as your belief system excluded "them others" and assured you of your superiority, brought comfort to your deathbed, and the other things religion is said to do. I'm sure Joan could make a great contribution to anyone's belief system.
5
I think you may have missed the point here: religion--any authentic religion--uses metaphor to call us to our higher moral selves. Only when one tries to take the story as literally true, does religion devolve into the intolerant, hypocritical, hateful and violent fundamentalism we see today.
"Religious literacy" is why I can read the Hebrew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu scriptures in context, with understanding, appreciate their beauty, how they undergird our culture, and make connections between many ideas. The King James Bible has been the foundational literary document of English language and literature for 400 years. It is impossible to read Shakespeare or Mark Twain with understanding, without reference to it. "Religious literacy" is important.
"Religious literacy" is why I can read the Hebrew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu scriptures in context, with understanding, appreciate their beauty, how they undergird our culture, and make connections between many ideas. The King James Bible has been the foundational literary document of English language and literature for 400 years. It is impossible to read Shakespeare or Mark Twain with understanding, without reference to it. "Religious literacy" is important.
2
Like anyone today wandering about and declaring himself sent by and the son of god, he'd be on meds.
16
"Remember that on average religious Americans donate far more to charity..." Well, just remember that the "charity" in question is a church or synagogue or mosque or temple... which isn't quite what "charity" implies for most of us.
As for what religion Jesus would be, that's a silly question. He was Jewish and never claimed to be otherwise. It was the apostle Paul who retroactively turned him into a Christian.
As for what religion Jesus would be, that's a silly question. He was Jewish and never claimed to be otherwise. It was the apostle Paul who retroactively turned him into a Christian.
7
I can't speack for the Muslim community, but I guess you don't know that all kinds of secular charities buy mailing lists from the Jewish Federation/synagogues, because Jews do a disproportionate of secular charitable giving. I get something like ten solicitations in the mail every. day., probably for that reason.
Jesus was a Jew and preached his form of reformed Judaism--like thousands of other preachers of that time. His followers like Paul, who never knew him, took his preachings and turned them into a religion that the so-called founder never intended, which shows that religion is not fact but opinion. So that's why there are 44,000 denominations of Christianity--none of them having much to do with the founder--and 10,000 religions across the globe all disagreeing with one another. While by the way there is only one law of gravity, which can be proved.
5
Spot on, Mr. K, although I feel many readers will disagree with you "to the death."
4
While both sides in Christianity, progressive and conservative, point angry fingers at each other, the blame falls squarely on both camps. Too many progressive leaders, as they like to call themselves, don't see the log in their own eyes, condemning prosperity gospel preachers while more concerned about their own prosperity than anything else: the size of their next book contract, name dropping about the important people they know and traveling the globe whilst preaching earthcare and the dangers of climate change (Skype anyone, if you really care about the planet?) Pope Francis is a relief, and while I am not Catholic, he is Christianity's current hope, a role model for true humility, a focus on the poor and downtrodden, and preaching the gospel, even using words when he has to. He doesn't talk about himself and seems singularly unimpressed with the cult of celebrity. Or let's rediscover Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who actually went to prison and died for his beliefs.
7
Probably no religion! Jesus might be an ordinary nice guy and folks after him must have hijacked his identity/ideas and morphed into nonsense of "religion". Jesus at this time point might very well choose to be an atheist as that seems to be the path forward for the next stage of evolutionary process. Jesus will not need crutches of religion to do the right thing, i.e. social justice for all.
2
Jesus has a very annoying fan club
18
Thank you Nicholas. But the tip of the iceberg.
1
Jesus was a carpenter, so he likely wore comfortable clothes and some sandals. When he married, he took the wine to the ceremony, so they all had a good time! He had a ferocious temper when he needed it. He loved to travel.....Good!!
1
He would be a secular humanist, a devotee of the scientific method and would be agnostic!
3
"What Religion Would Jesus Belong To?" He was a Jew.
If the Gospels can be believed, he would not have become anything else: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17 King James Bible
Now, if Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, and Judaism accepted that fulfillment, the interesting question might be what would Judaism have become? What precepts would have changed, continued, or been discarded?
If the Gospels can be believed, he would not have become anything else: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17 King James Bible
Now, if Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, and Judaism accepted that fulfillment, the interesting question might be what would Judaism have become? What precepts would have changed, continued, or been discarded?
5
You need to read Revelation to answer this question: Jesus will return as a Levite Jew, for only 144,000 of them would survive Armageddon, which is the final war that all Christians, Muslims, and Jews are hell-bent on bringing about. None other but these are supposed to survive Doomsday and witness the New Jerusalem. That is how peaceful and loving he was.
4
Yes. And if wishes were horses....Come, you who would hope for a better world and join us atheists who believe in helping others simply because we are human.
10
The question assumes we too indulge in the fantasies of religion, which have caused far more harm than good historically, despite some good art. Keep the rest.
6
Perhaps Christ is a refugee in a fast food joint right now cleaning toilets Would you know Him and how would we treat Him?
6
Great column!
Unfortunately, there is a tendency among institutions to put the best ideas of the original founder on the back burner and to instead emphasize violence, intolerance, and intellectually-shallow thinking. This seems to happen to secular thinkers as well. I very much doubt that Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels would have approved of everything the Communists of the 20th Century did. Similarly, it's horrific how Charles Darwin's ideas inspired the warped, pseudo-"scientific" racist ideas of the eugenics movement. These eugenicists -- who were largely Americans and Englishmen -- inspired the racist ideas of the Nazis (indeed, this was mentioned by the Nazis' defense attorney at the Nuremberg Trials in 1945-1946.)
There seems to be a major human capacity for warping both religious and secular/scientific ideas into something cruel and inhuman.
Unfortunately, there is a tendency among institutions to put the best ideas of the original founder on the back burner and to instead emphasize violence, intolerance, and intellectually-shallow thinking. This seems to happen to secular thinkers as well. I very much doubt that Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels would have approved of everything the Communists of the 20th Century did. Similarly, it's horrific how Charles Darwin's ideas inspired the warped, pseudo-"scientific" racist ideas of the eugenics movement. These eugenicists -- who were largely Americans and Englishmen -- inspired the racist ideas of the Nazis (indeed, this was mentioned by the Nazis' defense attorney at the Nuremberg Trials in 1945-1946.)
There seems to be a major human capacity for warping both religious and secular/scientific ideas into something cruel and inhuman.
3
Religion is often used as a tool of the state to maintain power. Right now in US and Russia it is blatant.
1
If Jesus was on earth today, He would be a Baha'i.
Religious truth is not absolute, but relative. It is revealed by God to mankind progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance. The Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.
Religious truth is not absolute, but relative. It is revealed by God to mankind progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance. The Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.
2
"If Jesus had been born in a secular State , he would have died in old age."
~ CARLOS MORA
~ CARLOS MORA
8
Nah, He was quite the one for controversy; some nut would shoot him as a young man.
"Kill them all. Let God sort 'em out." That T-shirt slogan comes from Arnaud Amalric, a Cistercian abbot sent to quell the Albigensian heretics in southern France. After capturing the town of Bezier in 1204, a lieutenant asked Arnaud how to tell the heretics (who would be put to the sword) from God's own faithful. Arnaud answered, "Kill them all. The Lord will know his own."
Doesn't sound much like Jesus does it? I suppose America's current sex-obsessed evangelical movement is pretty tame by comparison with Arnaud.
Doesn't sound much like Jesus does it? I suppose America's current sex-obsessed evangelical movement is pretty tame by comparison with Arnaud.
5
You are interested in Jesus when he fits your belief, such as when you are sure that he would be an environmentalist, or that he would welcome gays. Fine. How are you with his explicit teachings, where we have no doubt where he stands, such as on divorce (he does not believe in it - that IS the Jesus we meet in the Gospels). Tell us in a succeeding column.
4
I have a problem with this article. I am Catholic, but I have and continue to witness much distress, pain and loss among so many humans around this world.
I was taught that we are all created in his image and that we are all his children, but then why would he allow civil wars, violence, natural disasters, death and disease to pervade and be so common in the modern world ???
And prayer ??? Does it work ??? And religious services, teachings and traditions ??? What have been the results ???
Just more conflicts, wars, death and disease !!!
I agree with Rabbi Rick Jacobs who “sees a desire for a social justice mission inspired and balanced by faith traditions.”
For now and into the future, I believe that the best formula is his teaching for us to live by the Golden Rule: “One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.”
This article makes me think.
I am still looking for answers. I have no solutions.
I was taught that we are all created in his image and that we are all his children, but then why would he allow civil wars, violence, natural disasters, death and disease to pervade and be so common in the modern world ???
And prayer ??? Does it work ??? And religious services, teachings and traditions ??? What have been the results ???
Just more conflicts, wars, death and disease !!!
I agree with Rabbi Rick Jacobs who “sees a desire for a social justice mission inspired and balanced by faith traditions.”
For now and into the future, I believe that the best formula is his teaching for us to live by the Golden Rule: “One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.”
This article makes me think.
I am still looking for answers. I have no solutions.
10
I think he would renounce religion and become an atheist.
8
Jesus started a new religion and didn't put name on it. Belong To ?? I don't think he even thought about it.
1
Jesus was a Jew. His last name was not Christ.
1
Jesus did not start a new religion. He was an observant Jew who exhorted his hearers to follow the law. He wouldn't have been anything else, especially a Greek or Roman, each of which culture was polytheistic. He wanted to improve his own religion, and likely never had any desire to convert the other nations to his own.
The only thing we can be sure he wouldn't be is a Christian. Can you imagine seeing how the world has deified you and what it has done in your name for 2000 years? If I had to guess, I'd say Jesus would be feeling the Bern these days.
Although, isn't it kind of an offensive question, because Jesus was in fact a Jew?
Although, isn't it kind of an offensive question, because Jesus was in fact a Jew?
8
Jesus was fair haired and blue eyed, of northern or eastern European extract and spoke American accented English. It's obvious what his religion would be if he were alive today. Football.
38
If Jesus were alive today, my guess is he would probably do what he did 200 years ago: create a new religion using words and concepts tailored to our times, to try and improve the human condition.
4
Jesus did not create a religion. The followers of his teachings created a religion around his legend.
1
"What Religion Would Jesus Belong To?"
The kind that doesn't seem to exist!
The kind that doesn't seem to exist!
2
There aren't Ten Commqandments, Mr. Kristof, but there certainly aren't 12. Jews recognize something they call the 10 Statements/Utterances/Words, but only nine of those are commandments. It's obvious from the first statement, which says "...who brought you out of Egypt..." that it's intended for Jews, not everyone.
As for Jesus, in Matthew 19 he tells a questioner to follow the commandments, but to a Jew this means the hundreds of commandments that Jews are expected to follow, including, for example, dietary restrictions and holiday observances. Hence the man's question, "Which ones?"
Jesus then responds by listing *six* commandments, five of which are among the Ten Statements, and one of which is from Leviticus. Bizarrely, Christians have thrown out the sixth one and brought back five that Jesus never talks about.
At another point, Jesus boils it down to two. Christians completely ignore them, but they are both legitimate commandments from the Old Testament.
As for Jesus, in Matthew 19 he tells a questioner to follow the commandments, but to a Jew this means the hundreds of commandments that Jews are expected to follow, including, for example, dietary restrictions and holiday observances. Hence the man's question, "Which ones?"
Jesus then responds by listing *six* commandments, five of which are among the Ten Statements, and one of which is from Leviticus. Bizarrely, Christians have thrown out the sixth one and brought back five that Jesus never talks about.
At another point, Jesus boils it down to two. Christians completely ignore them, but they are both legitimate commandments from the Old Testament.
4
Mormon. They seem to be the most generally accepted religion to mock yet always turn the other cheek. It ain't for me but I'm always impressed.
4
Here's something funny to think about. I don't have any religious knowledge and don't follow any religion. I wasn't raised with any religious teachings- I can't tell you anything about the Bible, and yet my mother was a former nun. I respect religions as a whole, but of course not atrocities committed in their name. I perceive the good they can do and the serenity they seem to bring to some. But it isn't for me. I make my own rules and codes of conduct. I donate to causes monthly, I volunteer like mad ( art lessons for the entire local elementary school for free with entirely donated materials- and no my kids don't go to the school). I also gave 208 free rides to Pacific Crest Trail hikers this year, 11 more than last year. I helped 2 dogs find their way home and helped evacuate animals during a fire this summer. Being good, kind, and wanting to serve ones community can actually just originate in your heart and simply warm your soul. Not "having" a religion is ok and doesn't mean that the world is going to you-know-what in a handbasket. I feel very optimistic about the young generation even if a third are nones. They're wonderful!
22
Mr. Kristof claims that only recently Christianity and Islam wandered far from the teachings of Jesus and Mohammed. Not true. From its earliest days Christians persecuted and killed thousands to millions of Jews. European Christians fought dozens of wars among themselves killing millions. Christians invaded and conquered dozens of lands killing millions. Christians stole the Americas and Australia from indigenous people. Christians stole, killed and enslaved millions of Africans. Christians launched the Crusades to take back land they believed theirs (it wasn’t) from the Arabs who had previously conquered it.
Muslim history is not that different. Venturing from the Arabian Peninsula Muslim armies conquered land and people from the western tip of North Africa through the Middle East and deep into Asia. Christians and Jews were always second class citizens. The schism and wars between Sunni and Shia has lasted over 1,000 years.
The wars and devastation were not due to the lack of religion, but because of religion.
To complete the distortion he finds it awe inspiring to see a Rabbi (read Jew) battling for Palestinian rights, but what of a Rabbi battling for Jewish rights, whose rights have been trampled on (read killed) and put second to Christian and Muslim rights for over 1,000 years.
Kristof still sees the world through the prism of Christian right and wrong. The problem isn’t religion, but the belief that a religion is superior and that non-believers are inferior.
Muslim history is not that different. Venturing from the Arabian Peninsula Muslim armies conquered land and people from the western tip of North Africa through the Middle East and deep into Asia. Christians and Jews were always second class citizens. The schism and wars between Sunni and Shia has lasted over 1,000 years.
The wars and devastation were not due to the lack of religion, but because of religion.
To complete the distortion he finds it awe inspiring to see a Rabbi (read Jew) battling for Palestinian rights, but what of a Rabbi battling for Jewish rights, whose rights have been trampled on (read killed) and put second to Christian and Muslim rights for over 1,000 years.
Kristof still sees the world through the prism of Christian right and wrong. The problem isn’t religion, but the belief that a religion is superior and that non-believers are inferior.
14
You might also notice that all these religions feature an angry, male god who exacts punishment and retribution for the slightest offense. The followers behave likewise. Oh yeah, and all these marauding armies over the ages have basically all been men, as have their civil and military leaders.
Men need to evolve.
Men need to evolve.
It was not until I read Thich Nhat Hanh's LIVING BUDDHA LIVING CHRIST that I began to understand what Christianity should mean. It was not through my own Catholic priests or nuns that I learned the need for compassion and empathy, but rather through a Buddhist monk. It was Hanh who showed me how to understand the character and being of Christ. He would not turn away the gay man, the African American or Latino, the Muslim, Jew, or atheist, the woman who has a right to do what needs to be done for a healthy mind and body. We as Christians have gotten so off the track. And all we have to do is read the words of Christ. For starters, try the Sermon on the Mount...
15
I think this is one of the most important op-ed columns that I've read in many years. Jesus was not a Christian and, if he were alive today, would reject most of what is happening in his name. The same is probably true of Mohammad and the Buddha. We became so infatuated with the magic and miracles that we forgot the message. Kristof has given us an invitation to return to the true meaning of religion. Strange that it took one who is "not a particularly religious Christian" to point the way to true Christianity. Even Jesus might convert!
278
Well said, David.
Could it be possible that the "miracles" we read and hear about are just deep understanding of the laws of quantum physics and string theory?
I'm thinking that if he were around today - several thousand years old by now- I'm thinking he would be an atheist.
12
Jesus would be appalled of the mischief done in his name.
7
Excellent piece. I haven’t seen the data proving that religious Americans donate more to charity and volunteer more than others. It may be correct, though in fairness, that calculation should probably discount gifts/tithes to churches, and time volunteering for the church. That being said, I have to admit that the most rewarding volunteer effort I have made as an agnostic was with an organization started and run by Christians.
The simple answer to the title question is of course Judaism, at least the Judaism of his day. Today? That question is too hypothetical for my simple mind.
The religion that the Apostle Paul inspired in the name of Jesus may have had little to do with the teachings of Jesus himself, even as soon as Paul was traveling and speaking. I think it is a religion created by Paul. As for Muhammad, it seems his teachings were also radically changed within two generations by leaders of his flock. Though I am no religious scholar, I can only guess that the closest thing to following those two would be to read only the book of James, and only to read the Quran, not any Hadiths. Am I right?
The simple answer to the title question is of course Judaism, at least the Judaism of his day. Today? That question is too hypothetical for my simple mind.
The religion that the Apostle Paul inspired in the name of Jesus may have had little to do with the teachings of Jesus himself, even as soon as Paul was traveling and speaking. I think it is a religion created by Paul. As for Muhammad, it seems his teachings were also radically changed within two generations by leaders of his flock. Though I am no religious scholar, I can only guess that the closest thing to following those two would be to read only the book of James, and only to read the Quran, not any Hadiths. Am I right?
3
Jesus would have today belonged to the same religion he actually was...he was Jewish. Nowhere does he reject, excoriate, abandon, the fundamentals of the faith that he and his ancestors practiced...guided by the three intellectual and moral pillars of that religion: Law, Monotheism, and History. Hence he believed in one god, while rejecting idolatry, he held to the central moral tenet of biblical scripture -- do unto others..., and relied upon the omnipotent god he worshiped buttressed by the narrative of history that the Pentateuch provided him: showing that god's works -- from the creation, to the Flood, and especially the gift freedom from Egyptian slavery to the granting of law in the desert. When Jesus brought to that tradition a new measure of compassion, mercy and forgiveness it is not likely he would have conceived of that as a new religion but rather as a richly civilizing outgrowth of his fundamental faith and beliefs.
13
A Scientific American article about archeology in Israel back in the 1970's described Christianity as the most successful heresy of rabbinic Judaism. I about squirted coffee out my Methodist nose.
1
"The omnipotent god he worshiped", which was himself, correct? Or not? I've never been able to get that story straight in my head, and we've not even mentioned the Holy Ghost...
Jesus taught compassion and acceptance and inclusion of all. That was his message.
It was radical then, and unfortunately, it's radical now.
It was radical then, and unfortunately, it's radical now.
41
"Jesus taught compassion and acceptance and inclusion of all."
Totally wrong. Jesus was a Torah observant Jew. His Golden Rules applied only to Jew-on-Jew. He was unfriendly to Gentiles as Judaism/the Torah teaches. eg
1/ “You shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them & their gods. They shall not live in your land. (Exodus 23:31-33).
2/ Jesus insisted that his mission was “solely for the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15-4. )
Totally wrong. Jesus was a Torah observant Jew. His Golden Rules applied only to Jew-on-Jew. He was unfriendly to Gentiles as Judaism/the Torah teaches. eg
1/ “You shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them & their gods. They shall not live in your land. (Exodus 23:31-33).
2/ Jesus insisted that his mission was “solely for the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15-4. )
1
Not quite the central theme, but one comment.
Jesus may not have discussed gays but very specifically he did reject the orthodoxy on punishment. Leviticus 20 is very clear in requiring death for homosexual practices ... and also for adultery. Yet when Jesus was challenged to condemn, to stone an adulteress, he shamed the crowd into leaving and said he would not condemn her. He did not pick up a stone for Leviticus, nor should those who follow him.
Jesus may not have discussed gays but very specifically he did reject the orthodoxy on punishment. Leviticus 20 is very clear in requiring death for homosexual practices ... and also for adultery. Yet when Jesus was challenged to condemn, to stone an adulteress, he shamed the crowd into leaving and said he would not condemn her. He did not pick up a stone for Leviticus, nor should those who follow him.
14
I believe he or she would belong to none of the mainstream faiths, and would likely take the opportunity to try and gather together a group of salt of the earth types, men and women, and begin a movement to awaken empathy, love, and compassion, in the hearts of the tens of millions who currently live off the suffering and misery of the hundreds upon hundreds of millions kept in penury by the deliberate unbridled avarice of the elites.
He would look at the mayhem that has been instituted and carried out in the name of God, shake his head, and wonder what made His Father grant mankind dominion on the planet.
And here, in the United States of America, especially if He happened along, this election year, He would conclude that the evil He resisted and sent packing, in the desert, on His last trip, had been invited to rule and destroy what little decency still left in the nation.
And somewhere in space, surrounding our dying planet, He would erect a barrier, with the words -
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here", along with an audio loop, repeatimg for all time, the anguished screams of the Uncommitted. These are the souls of people who in life took no sides; the opportunists who were for neither good nor evil, but merely concerned with themselves. (Dantes' Inferno).
He would look at the mayhem that has been instituted and carried out in the name of God, shake his head, and wonder what made His Father grant mankind dominion on the planet.
And here, in the United States of America, especially if He happened along, this election year, He would conclude that the evil He resisted and sent packing, in the desert, on His last trip, had been invited to rule and destroy what little decency still left in the nation.
And somewhere in space, surrounding our dying planet, He would erect a barrier, with the words -
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here", along with an audio loop, repeatimg for all time, the anguished screams of the Uncommitted. These are the souls of people who in life took no sides; the opportunists who were for neither good nor evil, but merely concerned with themselves. (Dantes' Inferno).
5
But didn't God create Evil, as He created all things, including the capacity for evil in mankind? If God didn't want Evil in the world, why did He do such a good job of creating it's potential?
1
It doesn't matter if it's communism, fascism or any one of many religions. They are all means to establish social control over the population with the enforcers saying that it is the word of God, Marx, or a two bit dictator.
It's difficult to say which religion Jesus would belong to today. Perhaps he would have been a secular humanitarian without the baggage of ideology like the kind invented long after he was gone.
It's difficult to say which religion Jesus would belong to today. Perhaps he would have been a secular humanitarian without the baggage of ideology like the kind invented long after he was gone.
5
Jesus wouldn't belong to any religion. Religions were invented by humans for humans. Gods and their offspring have no use for religion. That's why they are gods.
65
Swedenborgian - probably not the organized version - perhaps more the mindset.
3
It was never the intention of Jesus to create a religion, the Church FATHERS did that later. I think Jesus would be appalled at what is being done in his name.
His intention was to teach us about love and forgiveness, first for ourselves because we can only love others as we love ourselves, and then for the world. I believe he loved all beings, and never distinguished between one and another.
But mostly, I believed that he came to point the way for us to look deep inside our hearts, where our divinity lies, and that we are the Messiahs we have been waiting for. The Kingdom of God lies within, not within the edifice of religion.
His intention was to teach us about love and forgiveness, first for ourselves because we can only love others as we love ourselves, and then for the world. I believe he loved all beings, and never distinguished between one and another.
But mostly, I believed that he came to point the way for us to look deep inside our hearts, where our divinity lies, and that we are the Messiahs we have been waiting for. The Kingdom of God lies within, not within the edifice of religion.
263
"His intention was to teach us about love and forgiveness"
Jesus was a Torah observant Jew of his age. He believed in Mosaic law and thus was unfriendly to Gentiles. His Golden Rule comments were meant only for Jew-on-Jew. eg 1/ “You shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them & their gods. They shall not live in your land. (Exodus 23:31-33). 2/ Jesus insisted that his mission was “solely for the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15-4. )
It was Paul who created the basis for Christianity as a form of Judaism-lite which ignored Mosaic law in order to have a saleable concept for the pagans. Paul never met , saw or heard Jesus & the people who actually knew him eg his brother James (the bishop of bishops of the synagogues) was also a Torah observant Jew & fought with Paul who he made renounce his radical preaching but when Paul escaped Jerusalem/James he resumed his ministry of fairy tales about what Jesus stood for.
Jesus was a Torah observant Jew of his age. He believed in Mosaic law and thus was unfriendly to Gentiles. His Golden Rule comments were meant only for Jew-on-Jew. eg 1/ “You shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them & their gods. They shall not live in your land. (Exodus 23:31-33). 2/ Jesus insisted that his mission was “solely for the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15-4. )
It was Paul who created the basis for Christianity as a form of Judaism-lite which ignored Mosaic law in order to have a saleable concept for the pagans. Paul never met , saw or heard Jesus & the people who actually knew him eg his brother James (the bishop of bishops of the synagogues) was also a Torah observant Jew & fought with Paul who he made renounce his radical preaching but when Paul escaped Jerusalem/James he resumed his ministry of fairy tales about what Jesus stood for.
1
Yes Yes Yes
The most 'Christian' person I have met is a devout Muslim. When she went to Temple on Fridays, I always asked her to include me in her prayers. 'Can't you pray', she would ask gently at times. It was not only because she reminds me of the Statue of Liberty, but her amazing grace and kindness. She once wrote to me the following 'my religion is about love and not hate, this is not 'Islam', and for some reason tears nearly welled up in my eyes.
Alice Thomas Ellis, a British author, writes in a published diary 'We had a very ecumenical Easter in the country with a number of people who were too young to have made up their minds yet on the existence of God: Janice who is Jewish, Mouness who is Muslim, Joan who is Vegetarian and Mary, whose uncle holds a position at the Vatican'.
Jesus was Jewish and a prophet, his doctrine might have been upholding the defense of the human person, and the safeguarding of human dignity. Be as it may, I always carry on the stage of life, a photo of Pope Francis and my Muslim friend because they are food for my heart, spirit and soul.
Alice Thomas Ellis, a British author, writes in a published diary 'We had a very ecumenical Easter in the country with a number of people who were too young to have made up their minds yet on the existence of God: Janice who is Jewish, Mouness who is Muslim, Joan who is Vegetarian and Mary, whose uncle holds a position at the Vatican'.
Jesus was Jewish and a prophet, his doctrine might have been upholding the defense of the human person, and the safeguarding of human dignity. Be as it may, I always carry on the stage of life, a photo of Pope Francis and my Muslim friend because they are food for my heart, spirit and soul.
7
"Jesus was a radical" The people who "kidnapped him" Will never believe that, unfortunately.
7
Hmm. Mr. Kristof ponders what Jesus, Muhammad and Buddha would think about today's big issues and concludes that they would each agree with him completely on everything.
That's cute, Ambrose. Completely made up out of whole cloth, though.
In the Hadith, Islam's other book which is the "Sayings of Muhammed," he absolutely and explicitly called for the death of gays. Sorry, Muhammed from my gay perspective was a very, very bad man.
I know what Nicholas Kristof is writing about: As many Christian leaders do not exemplify Christian values or tenets as he complains, to my observation many secular progressive leaders and factions do not exemplify the standards of tolerance and human decency that they so piously preach from their own contrived alters.
Indeed, I often stand agog at how secularists seem inhuman, and even beastly, in their intolerance for others. Does not “beastly” describe Bill Maher?
It’s a two way street Mr. Kristof. There really is no such thing as religious intolerance, or secular intolerance: there’s just human intolerance, and we’re all equally guilty.
Except Bill Maher; he really is more guilty.
Indeed, I often stand agog at how secularists seem inhuman, and even beastly, in their intolerance for others. Does not “beastly” describe Bill Maher?
It’s a two way street Mr. Kristof. There really is no such thing as religious intolerance, or secular intolerance: there’s just human intolerance, and we’re all equally guilty.
Except Bill Maher; he really is more guilty.
4
The very basis of Buddhist understanding, the Dhamma, does not really accommodate a state of "aghast". It teaches the way to understanding. So if the nominally Buddhist monks in Myanmar are seen at the center of atrocities against the Rohingya, this is not something to abhor which only leaves us blind, but is rather a matter for contemplation as to causes. What "religion" would Jesus belong to? It seems a pointless question. All we can really ask is why the scriptural stories have survived and come to us as they have? What is the fundamental life in the teaching? As silly as it seems though, I'll still hazard a guess that Jesus of Nazareth would have had no quarrel with the Buddha.
5
The lack of theological education the author refers to is simply a part of the general, woeful ignorance of a large part of our citizenry. Studies indicate that over 30% of the country barely reads on a 3rd grade level. In the college History 101 course I teach, I recently asked for a show of hands of those who had read at least one work by Shakespeare. No hands were raised! A significant percentage of students have serious trouble in writing a coherent sentence in correct grammar. Most have only the most rudimentary notion of history, much of that quite wrong. Most have little idea of anything out side the pop culture of the US and couldn't find England on a road map of the British Isles. And the author is surprised that so many do not know what an epistle is? It is no wonder Trump is supported by so many of these know-nothings.In every class I find there are 2 or 3 shining exceptions to the litany of ignorance - students who have somehow managed to surmount the decline of public education - but there aren't enough of them. I don't know what religion Jesus would chose today, if any, but if he were a school teacher, he might be pointing at the standardized testers, the charter school con artists and the so-called experts that pontificate from on-high and say "the letter killeth but the spirit (of true learning) giveth life."
7
A number of years ago I wrote a blog asking "where would Jesus worship"? It would not be a Catholic church, since he would be offended by the crucifix, which goes against the commandment of images. It would not be a Protestant church. One, which one would he choose out of the many? Two, he would not have been happy being made into a god, which goes against the commandment of other gods. It would not be an Orthodox or Conservative synagogue, since they are too "Pharisaic" for him. It might be Reform, which empahisizes social justice and morality over ritual. More than likely, it would be Chasidic, since the revolution of the Baal Shem Tov mirrored in many ways the teachings of Jesus with its emphasis of the spirit of the law taking precedence over the letter of the law.
2
Asking what religion Jesus might join with today presupposes there is trouble with the Christian doctrine. There is, of course, just as there is with Islamic doctrine. Religion, as something organized and shared between individuals, needs doctrine. And since religious doctrine up until now has been created by men, it seems it will always be flawed. My point is that I don't know if Christ would choose a religion or doctrine today over the one his supposed father allegedly created over 2000 years ago for a primitive desert culture. I'm not sure a worship of an unknowable unprovable deity would ever produce something free of selfish human manipulation. As a gay man, I would hope he would not choose Islam as Mohammed himself (in the Hadith) explicitly called for the death of gays. If you're looking for something good, picking a religion is probably a bad place to start no matter which mellinium you're in.
4
At the risk of incurring readers' wrath, I am not sure that Jesus "founded" any religion, or certainly any new religion. He was born a Jew, functioned as a Jew and died as a Jew. He never stopped being a Jew and the Jesus of the Gospels functioned mainly in a Jewish milieu. Others were to found that "new" religion.
Jesus challenged the Jewish establishment up to a point. He was not happy with certain aspects of the Temple establishment but he never disavowed the Temple or its ritual. His criticism of other Jewish rituals did not throw out the baby with the bathwater, as it were.
Religion comes form the Latin religare - to bind. It implies an obligation, a bond, reverence between a human and god(s) and dictates conduct indicating belief in a divine power.
Social justice, shaping a more just or compassionate world is fine and might be part of religion, but this might also be undertaken by a union organizer or by a compassionate political leader or thinker. It is not intrinsic "religious" behavior.
The bond between man/woman and God is the non-immutable center and ritual and religious behavior and other attendant religious forms of action are the core.
Be inspired by what you will, Mr. Kristof, but it is the doctrine, the rituals, the cathedrals, temples and mosques which enable all the rest.
It is a package deal.
Jesus challenged the Jewish establishment up to a point. He was not happy with certain aspects of the Temple establishment but he never disavowed the Temple or its ritual. His criticism of other Jewish rituals did not throw out the baby with the bathwater, as it were.
Religion comes form the Latin religare - to bind. It implies an obligation, a bond, reverence between a human and god(s) and dictates conduct indicating belief in a divine power.
Social justice, shaping a more just or compassionate world is fine and might be part of religion, but this might also be undertaken by a union organizer or by a compassionate political leader or thinker. It is not intrinsic "religious" behavior.
The bond between man/woman and God is the non-immutable center and ritual and religious behavior and other attendant religious forms of action are the core.
Be inspired by what you will, Mr. Kristof, but it is the doctrine, the rituals, the cathedrals, temples and mosques which enable all the rest.
It is a package deal.
108
What poses as organized "religion" today is basically a conflation of power and money into a soi-dise "elect."
If these people ever saw the historic Jesus and HIs Disciples, their reaction would be "a commune of commie deviants" (to put it in language this paper could use). The real words would NOT be politically correct.
Jesus's sole commandment, "Love one another," has been replaced by "Love yourself most." We see this most clearly in one of this year's presidential candidates, who brags about being able to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue with no regrets and no consequences to himself.
If these people ever saw the historic Jesus and HIs Disciples, their reaction would be "a commune of commie deviants" (to put it in language this paper could use). The real words would NOT be politically correct.
Jesus's sole commandment, "Love one another," has been replaced by "Love yourself most." We see this most clearly in one of this year's presidential candidates, who brags about being able to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue with no regrets and no consequences to himself.
1
If all of us on earth were brothers and sisters, how would we need to live so that all of us would be better off? And not just on earth, but in eternity?
Most people think of God as a far-off concept. God is, I think, more realistic and practical about what He teaches than any human being believes is real and practical. Looking at the life of Jesus, the only gateway to God, is one way to know this. I think the main issue that both Christians and non-Christians have about practicing and perceiving Christianity is that they either read Bible shallowly or don't read it.
I'd strongly recommend reading Matthew (begin with ch.4-7), Mark, Luke, John.
Whether we acknowledge God’s existence or not seems to depend partly on our definition of what is real. A dying child in a poor country heals after a doctor inspired by Jesus travels there and treats her. A life 100% same as ours and our loved ones' is now alive. The child’s family rejoices. The child’s many descendants will now be alive. The world will be different. God rejoices -- they overcame temptation to go on vacation or buy fancy house and used their time and resources differently. Is this real?
One question that confuses a lot of people is: How can good God cause so much suffering?
But is God causing the suffering? Or are our sins causing it? If we were naturally built to do good only, why would God have to keep telling us not to sin, almost begging us not to sin, and if someone sins, tell us to forgive that person?
Most people think of God as a far-off concept. God is, I think, more realistic and practical about what He teaches than any human being believes is real and practical. Looking at the life of Jesus, the only gateway to God, is one way to know this. I think the main issue that both Christians and non-Christians have about practicing and perceiving Christianity is that they either read Bible shallowly or don't read it.
I'd strongly recommend reading Matthew (begin with ch.4-7), Mark, Luke, John.
Whether we acknowledge God’s existence or not seems to depend partly on our definition of what is real. A dying child in a poor country heals after a doctor inspired by Jesus travels there and treats her. A life 100% same as ours and our loved ones' is now alive. The child’s family rejoices. The child’s many descendants will now be alive. The world will be different. God rejoices -- they overcame temptation to go on vacation or buy fancy house and used their time and resources differently. Is this real?
One question that confuses a lot of people is: How can good God cause so much suffering?
But is God causing the suffering? Or are our sins causing it? If we were naturally built to do good only, why would God have to keep telling us not to sin, almost begging us not to sin, and if someone sins, tell us to forgive that person?
1
It's obvious that we weren't "naturally built to do good only." Only someone hopelessly mired in dogma and tradition could make that claim with a straight face.
Mr. Kristoff....I'm a long-retired Lutheran pastor. At 79, and post-Stroke, my memory has faded, but I can still reflect and appreciate your observations on Christian existence and "performance" today. In my world, because of circumstances, discussion on the subject is rare to nonexistent. It may be close to the lack of discussion on politics. Relatives and even friends, of opposing views, do not broach the subjects, because of lurking argument and conflict. I intend, however, to use your brief and excellent and cogent piece to prompt some discussion in our congregation. We are in a new congregation, having had to move close to a 50 year old daughter who has early onset
Altzheimers. While totally new here, rather than being a known "former pastor",
I can still plant a few seeds for discussion. I'm grateful for your sensitive piece.
Altzheimers. While totally new here, rather than being a known "former pastor",
I can still plant a few seeds for discussion. I'm grateful for your sensitive piece.
4
The problem is Religion.
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." ~ THOMAS JEFFERSON
And the biggest fable is the "historical" Jesus, which is not. No wonder he disappeared into "heaven" without a trace!
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." ~ THOMAS JEFFERSON
And the biggest fable is the "historical" Jesus, which is not. No wonder he disappeared into "heaven" without a trace!
6
Here in San Francisco, we have an example of true Christianity as I think it was meant to be - The Gubbio Project at St. Boniface Church in the Tenderloin. They open their doors to the homeless at 6:00 AM to provide "Sacred Sleep." They stay open until about 3:00 PM. They even conduct mass (quietly) while the homeless are sleeping in the pews. There are other services provided as well. They consider the homeless their guests.
21
Here is the persistent problem we face as humans and it's not religion.
Almost 70% of us have a measurable intelligence quotient (IQ) of between 85 and 110.
Not the worst but not that great, especially since there is a significant portion of us near the low range.
So, billions of us are susceptible to misleading, muddled information and socialization that leads us to weird conclusions about life and each other. Religious teachings can either help keep us on a good path or pollute minds.
This often sad world needs to foster as many bright and critical thinking people as possible. A task that is not easy for myriad reasons, especially in areas where access to broad education and thought is lacking.
At the very least we in the US could make it our mission to turn out as many smart Americans as we can. Why not?
A lot of what ails us might be mitigated.
It's a dream worth pursuing.
Almost 70% of us have a measurable intelligence quotient (IQ) of between 85 and 110.
Not the worst but not that great, especially since there is a significant portion of us near the low range.
So, billions of us are susceptible to misleading, muddled information and socialization that leads us to weird conclusions about life and each other. Religious teachings can either help keep us on a good path or pollute minds.
This often sad world needs to foster as many bright and critical thinking people as possible. A task that is not easy for myriad reasons, especially in areas where access to broad education and thought is lacking.
At the very least we in the US could make it our mission to turn out as many smart Americans as we can. Why not?
A lot of what ails us might be mitigated.
It's a dream worth pursuing.
8
I have unfolded the religious message as best I can - either each individual is sacred, and end-in-her/himself, or each individual is a unit of measure, from which profit may be wrung. Are we precious souls or are we batteries? I know precisely what the radical rabbi would have use choose. But that is not really who we are, is it? Vicious, fearful, greedy, verbal apes, ever straining for amassing resources, status, security. This is how we're built, mostly. A great many manage to reign in their vicious ape nature. But far too many do not.
4
I agree with your underlying sentiment, but you're being unfair to the apes. What is "vicious" about them is a projection by humanity. If anything, apes are more true to their nature than humans.
True Christianity boils down to "Love one another" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." As the Gospel of James points out, faith without works is dead. Works means taking action, feeding the hungry, giving away one coat if you own two. Other religions have similar ideas at their hearts. Sadly, organized religion also has a lot to answer for. The original message has often been lost, subverted or diluted. Reading about the people you hold up as examples is inspiring. We liberals are too smug. We need to step up our works.
3
Works according to James, And probably Jesus since they were brothers and James led the church after Jesus's death, meant strict following of the (Jewish) law.
That is what Paul railed against, he seemed to have despised the law and liked eating all manner of meat, despite his claims to have been a strict following Pharisee
That is what Paul railed against, he seemed to have despised the law and liked eating all manner of meat, despite his claims to have been a strict following Pharisee
Jesus spoke in parables, not in tongues. It's just not that hard to figure out.
6
Ironic that so many of these comments feature opinions that Jesus, were he here today, would express moral values the way those commentators themselves do. The appropriation of Jesus and other historical religious figures is itself the problem. And of course, our knowledge of these figures is itself based on myriad appropriations. So much so that these historical religious figures reflect the appropriations themselves while bearing no vestigial resemblance to their actual being.
Moral lessons are of great value, until they are moored to highly mythologized figures for supposed validation.
Moral lessons are of great value, until they are moored to highly mythologized figures for supposed validation.
4
"rooted in contemplation and expressed in compassion." I know of only one religion that is is rooted in contemplation and expressed in compassion. It is Buddhism. It has no doctrine, only philosophical and guiding tenets. And it is based entirely on practice. Actually, "the four fruits" of practice are compassion, equanimity, appreciative joy, and loving kindness.
25
I think that the Quakers represent, closer than any group, so much of what Buddhism's basics are.
Ask any Buddhist monk (I did, several times and in several countries), and they will tell you what the Buddha taught, "Buddhism is not a religion". First of all, to have a religion you need a transcendent god, which is not present in the PRACTICE of Buddhism.
Buddhism is not a philosophy or religion. It is a Way of Life, practiced by the individual and based on Compassion, and living with that as your guiding force.
Human beings seem to have a love of ritual and ceremony, and Buddhism certainly has evolved its share of that, but underneath it all, no god.
Buddhism is not a philosophy or religion. It is a Way of Life, practiced by the individual and based on Compassion, and living with that as your guiding force.
Human beings seem to have a love of ritual and ceremony, and Buddhism certainly has evolved its share of that, but underneath it all, no god.
What religion would Jesus be today? That is a tough question. After being forced out as CEO at the Religious Television Network he founded as a result of an IRS audit stemming from allegations of sexual harassment by female staff members, and fathering multiple children, I think he would be jaded. Clearly, the repossession of his airplane and his houses in California and New York, as well as the 15 year prison sentence he received, would leave him soul searching. I think after his prison term, he would have started another church and built it into a mega church which broadcasts it's services on a major TV network. So I would guess he would stay a Christian and just do what most Christian leaders do.
6
I was brought up in a "Fire and Brimstone" fundamental church, left it as a late teen when Kennedy was "going run the US with instructions from the Vatican." Finally joined the United Methodist's in the late 80's and recently left them. Got tired of all the true believers studying the Bible to find at best a small speck of info supporting their take on their religion.
I am familiar with the teachings of Jesus and all one needs to do is to ask "What would Jesus do?" The Bible is a wonderful work of literature but I wonder what gives certain folks license to interpret it to support their bigotry in the name of God. It is no wonder organized churches are losing congregates.
I am familiar with the teachings of Jesus and all one needs to do is to ask "What would Jesus do?" The Bible is a wonderful work of literature but I wonder what gives certain folks license to interpret it to support their bigotry in the name of God. It is no wonder organized churches are losing congregates.
11
Get real - the dude went to Rabbinical school. He was Jewish. He is Jewish.
16
"Jesus was a radical who challenged the establishment, while Christianity has been so successful that in much of the world it is the establishment." No, that is to humanize Jesus who is one of the Trinty who took flesh and dwelt among us as God and man, not a radical man, Jesus came to teach us to pray "Our Father.." Jesus is the Son of God and began his ministry on earth preaching "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." He was sinless and suffered at the hands of radicals who did not know what they were doing. The problem here is a refusal to repentance, refusal to change, refusal to believe in Jesus but to judge religions.
1
McLaren is a charming and beguiling over-simplifier, who presents us once again with the model for modern religion offered to us by Immanuel Kant. Forget all those archaic doctrines and mysterious religious practices, the enduring meaning of religion is the morality it promotes. But historic Christianity stripped of its historic beliefs and practices and reduced to some idealistic moral aphorisms is a one generational transitional phenomenon. First generation liberals at least have some memory of a Christianity with substance and depth even as they transition out of it into some nice generic "all religions are the same they teach compassion" blandness. Their children will simply see the leftover Christian baggage as a hindrance to being universal citizens of the new secular moral order and will discard it....or in some cases find their way back to the real thing.
3
Great article! Interestingly, many contemporary biblical scholars suggest that Jesus was simply a devout follower of Hebrew teaching who tried to get his followers to understand that Yahweh was concern with our compassionate service with the poor, society's outcasts, the lame, the blind, the
Lepers and other s who are treated as outcasts. He also taught that the divine welcomes all to the table of sharing in the kingdom of heaven, Or that Jesus came to simply be the teacher-rabbi of an "inclusive" synagogue(gathering) , no exclusions.
I I think pope Francis understands this quite clearly. We just need to listen, practice compassion and retread what Jesus said and did n his ministry.
Parkes-retired minister
Lepers and other s who are treated as outcasts. He also taught that the divine welcomes all to the table of sharing in the kingdom of heaven, Or that Jesus came to simply be the teacher-rabbi of an "inclusive" synagogue(gathering) , no exclusions.
I I think pope Francis understands this quite clearly. We just need to listen, practice compassion and retread what Jesus said and did n his ministry.
Parkes-retired minister
4
I was raised as a Southern Baptist like Jimmy Carter who is no longer a Southern Baptist and neither am I now. I am now a member of a United Methodist church but my Baptist Sunday School studies about the many stories and messages of Jesus are still with me. Our family today has an opportunity to observe the true work of the Catholics and Pope Francis and if I had to guess and pick one religion of today that Jesus would choose, it would be the Catholic religion as it is being practiced and led presently.
1
Perhaps Jesus would align more with Hinduism than any of the religions people like to poke at in the Western world.....
2
"That would be a migration away from religious bureaucracy and back to the moral vision of the founder, and it would be an enormous challenge."
Actually, the challenge is not bureaucratic; it's personal...but it is much simpler than most people would make it out to be...not "easy" necessarily, but "simpler."
1 - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
think about what you do in your day...do you really want to cheat the guy who forgot to charge you the full amount? (you wouldn't like being ripped off)...do you really want to be called a name because your skin is ____ (fill in color)? (maybe if you wouldn't like it, you shouldn't do it to another)
2 - Look at what Jesus DID (to use an example from Christianity)
did he try to stop food stamps reaching poor kids, because their parents were "irresponsible"? (no, we are told he had "compassion" and fed them, without any stated qualification for perceived available resources)...did he ever try to kill certain groups of people based on nationality, ethnicity, faith, geography, sexuality, gender, or any other "marker"? (no, we are told he came to Earth to be inclusive, to not only proclaim the Jews the "chosen people" of God, but to welcome all people to the love of God and make them ALL the "chosen people"
Bureaucracy will change automatically, if we as individuals change our hearts to see in others the worth we feel in ourselves, and if we seek to live a way of life rather than a set of rules.
Actually, the challenge is not bureaucratic; it's personal...but it is much simpler than most people would make it out to be...not "easy" necessarily, but "simpler."
1 - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
think about what you do in your day...do you really want to cheat the guy who forgot to charge you the full amount? (you wouldn't like being ripped off)...do you really want to be called a name because your skin is ____ (fill in color)? (maybe if you wouldn't like it, you shouldn't do it to another)
2 - Look at what Jesus DID (to use an example from Christianity)
did he try to stop food stamps reaching poor kids, because their parents were "irresponsible"? (no, we are told he had "compassion" and fed them, without any stated qualification for perceived available resources)...did he ever try to kill certain groups of people based on nationality, ethnicity, faith, geography, sexuality, gender, or any other "marker"? (no, we are told he came to Earth to be inclusive, to not only proclaim the Jews the "chosen people" of God, but to welcome all people to the love of God and make them ALL the "chosen people"
Bureaucracy will change automatically, if we as individuals change our hearts to see in others the worth we feel in ourselves, and if we seek to live a way of life rather than a set of rules.
6
WWJD is tiresome and eternally anti religious, speculation to show how far Christianity has strayed from Jesus-ism, ie in favor of modern left-ism
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It took a few hundred years or Christianity to create a coherent orthodoxy, we should recall,...
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Jesus for some or many fulfilled ancient Davidic Messianic Isaiah-based prophecies, making him either Jewish or Jewish-heretic, there were many Jewish splinter sects at the time, maybe like now
'Jesus died for to save our sins' is a form of human sacrifice, not central in Judaism --even then;
we got past that with Abraham and Issac some 1300 years prior, although Moloch worshipers (child sacrifice) were prevalent in Jewish kingly and prophetic times, and railed against
(and are still practiced by heirs of Mohamed)
=
I think, that citing Jesus for gay rights is a form of taking the lord's name in vain, one of the more or less universal prohibitions in the Decalogue
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It took a few hundred years or Christianity to create a coherent orthodoxy, we should recall,...
- -
Jesus for some or many fulfilled ancient Davidic Messianic Isaiah-based prophecies, making him either Jewish or Jewish-heretic, there were many Jewish splinter sects at the time, maybe like now
'Jesus died for to save our sins' is a form of human sacrifice, not central in Judaism --even then;
we got past that with Abraham and Issac some 1300 years prior, although Moloch worshipers (child sacrifice) were prevalent in Jewish kingly and prophetic times, and railed against
(and are still practiced by heirs of Mohamed)
=
I think, that citing Jesus for gay rights is a form of taking the lord's name in vain, one of the more or less universal prohibitions in the Decalogue
3
It's not religion. It's compassion, empathy, and charity. These are human qualities that people develop through reason, and must have had for tens of thousands of years before religions were invented or surely our species wouldn't have survived.
6
Compassion, empathy, and charity are just as much gut feelings as developed through reason. I have no problem with my ethics being the product of the evolution of the human brain, and extended by rational thought.
Which might be a problem with religion: too much speculative thought about out evolved gut feelings, which led to things that are frankly ridiculous.
Which might be a problem with religion: too much speculative thought about out evolved gut feelings, which led to things that are frankly ridiculous.
1
It seems religion has become a gateway toward intolerance rather than a bridge toward compassion.
15
Why when this argument of religion is brought up that the religions of three fourths of the worlds population is omitted?
Did Kristof forget about Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etcetera .... or is there a specific reason why these religions are not included in the conversation?
Did Kristof forget about Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etcetera .... or is there a specific reason why these religions are not included in the conversation?
6
MDC: Maybe NK is interested in the fact that America was founded as a Christian country. Buddhists don't burn crosses in America. Hindus haven't lynched people.
1
Jesus would not recognize any religions today and would be astonished to see what Christianity has become in his name. All religions are corporations-essentially financials institutions whose only purpose is to expand membership, making money in the process. Religions offer no product to its members except some vague promise described as "immortality". This gimmick has worked since the first cave man discovered he could control other men by pretending to read god's mind.
10
The "founders" of "our religions" in most cases did not busy themselves with founding religions. They were prophets. or teachers, or avatars, whose sole purpose was to bring people closer to God. Often religions do not serve that purpose. As for American evangelicals and fundamentalists, they are, as Howard Dean once suggested, the Pharisees and Sadducees of our time.
14
Mohammed and Joseph Smith being exceptions. They were quite the operators in all secular, political, cultural, and religious spheres.
Read Christ's Sermon on the Mount. Then look at our "Christian" society. The USA - the most materialistic and racist society on Earth. What better indictment of our brand of Christianity than the fact that Christians are the most fervent supports of Trump.
51
Or read Matthew 26: when did you see me hungry and feed me? You did this for me. It goes on and on to include the stranger, the sick, even the lowly prisoner. It also talks about those that don't perform acts of mercy. It's a judgement chapter. Read it. It seems like this may be one of the verses that the Christian right fail to read or quote.
Matthew by the way is a Gospel for those of you who may not know that.
Matthew by the way is a Gospel for those of you who may not know that.
Jesus was still a Jew at his death. His last supper was Passover. He died a Jew. Those who came after created Christianity and they have been changing it for centuries.
393
Yes, he was a Jew. But he also spoke of the non Jewsih population: The Good Samaritan: Proper Jews (think proper Christians) passed by the Jewish person that was sick because it would not have been proper for them to become unclean by touching a sick person and they were on their way to the temple.
A Samaritan (non Jewish) stopped and helped the sick person.
As a Jew is was very critical of the rabbis and pharisees. (The money changers in the temple is just once example.)
A Samaritan (non Jewish) stopped and helped the sick person.
As a Jew is was very critical of the rabbis and pharisees. (The money changers in the temple is just once example.)
1
"It is not the bureaucracy that inspires me, or doctrine, or ancient rituals, or even the most glorious cathedral, temple or mosque, but rather a Catholic missionary doctor in Sudan treating bomb victims, an evangelical physician achieving the impossible in rural Angola, a rabbi battling for Palestinians’ human rights — they fill me with an almost holy sense of awe. Now, that’s religion."
Ask any Catholic missionary doctor, Evangelical physician, or Jewish rabbi that is doing these types of things, and the last thing they'll tell you is that they're doing it to "express a loving way of life." Nothing but rock-solid assurance and a deep conviction for truth gets you the kind of love required to go the south Sudan or rural Angola to risk your life.
Belief and doctrine matters. And you can't divorce belief and doctrine from the expression of real love. Just read the four Gospels of the Bible, and you'll find Jesus' teachings on loving your neighbor are inseparable from the rest of Jesus' teachings.
That's why this so-called "religious illiteracy" is so concerning -- no true Christian who has studied the Bible could possibly come to the same conclusion as this article.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with me. I'm also pretty sure those who disagree are largely of the same crowd that takes very little interest in substantive doctrine or belief. That is why this kind of discourse about religious literacy is so polarized and anemic.
Ask any Catholic missionary doctor, Evangelical physician, or Jewish rabbi that is doing these types of things, and the last thing they'll tell you is that they're doing it to "express a loving way of life." Nothing but rock-solid assurance and a deep conviction for truth gets you the kind of love required to go the south Sudan or rural Angola to risk your life.
Belief and doctrine matters. And you can't divorce belief and doctrine from the expression of real love. Just read the four Gospels of the Bible, and you'll find Jesus' teachings on loving your neighbor are inseparable from the rest of Jesus' teachings.
That's why this so-called "religious illiteracy" is so concerning -- no true Christian who has studied the Bible could possibly come to the same conclusion as this article.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with me. I'm also pretty sure those who disagree are largely of the same crowd that takes very little interest in substantive doctrine or belief. That is why this kind of discourse about religious literacy is so polarized and anemic.
2
Brenden:
There are many atheists that also perform great acts of mercy and love and they don't do it because they believe in a god.
There are many atheists that also perform great acts of mercy and love and they don't do it because they believe in a god.
@Brendan "Ask any Catholic missionary doctor, Evangelical physician, or Jewish rabbi that is doing these types of things, and the last thing they'll tell you is that they're doing it to "express a loving way of life."
Hmmmmm. Brendan, have you actually asked any of the above? I do wish people would stop making blanket statements like yours without doing foundational research.
"And you can't divorce belief and doctrine from the expression of real love. " Well actually, you're wrong. Just ask a zen Buddhist, for example.
" no true Christian who has studied the Bible could possibly come to the same conclusion as this article." Sorry, Brendan, I have studied the Bible (and also the history of how it was "edited") and I'm a true Christian. Note I say a true Christian, not a doctrinal Christian. I'm also a Buddhist.
"What?" you may be thinking "that's impossible!" Well tell that to the three Catholic priests who practice in the same zendo that I do.
Hmmmmm. Brendan, have you actually asked any of the above? I do wish people would stop making blanket statements like yours without doing foundational research.
"And you can't divorce belief and doctrine from the expression of real love. " Well actually, you're wrong. Just ask a zen Buddhist, for example.
" no true Christian who has studied the Bible could possibly come to the same conclusion as this article." Sorry, Brendan, I have studied the Bible (and also the history of how it was "edited") and I'm a true Christian. Note I say a true Christian, not a doctrinal Christian. I'm also a Buddhist.
"What?" you may be thinking "that's impossible!" Well tell that to the three Catholic priests who practice in the same zendo that I do.
The people NK gives as examples of true religion are people who have heard the voice of conscience within themselves, and perhaps that is their gift from God. No, you don't need a religious motivation for this work, but a spiritual 'gathering' does help both accomplish the work and keep folks from becoming solipsistic and self-righteous. It also may keep us from developing substitute notions of mission, such as the, to me, frightening and exclusionary idea of a "Christian nation". I also believe that besides the people that Mr Kristof mentions there are others who have other sorts of gifts, also valid, and other parts of creation, no matter how created, have their own claims to be part of spiritual community.
1
Love.....it's that simple and that complex.
1
I find it interesting that in the article and comments so far there is no recognition that Jesus claimed to be more than a man, and people of the time saw him "perform" miracles. And there is no mention here of the claim of the gospels that Jesus rose from the dead. Also that those believers in Jesus held to their beliefs and were killed for their beliefs. If these things are not true, and Jesus was just a pretty good teacher and good man, then our faith in him is of no use, and believers have no hope. But if it is true, then it makes all the difference, and we should follow him and love the downtrodden, love our neighbor as ourself, and be in awe that there is a true God. But back to the point of the article, Jesus didn't mention gays or abortiom, but he was pretty stern about hypocracy and love of wealth. And that is where this article connects - are people of which ever faith loving their neighbors or hypocrites and lovers of mammon?
3
Living with compassion towards every person, even those least obviously "worthy" of compassion, is delivering "God's" grace directly without need of any religious intermediary. But since it can't be quantified in $ contributed or hours of volunteer time, apparently it doesn't count to Nick.
2
I think that Jesus--as well as the Buddha, Muhammad, and G.. are always with us. I think I see them when I see someone acting with compassion towards people who are suffering.
When I startle myself with some "thoughtless" act of kindness, I always thank whatever force it is, that has given me that bit of grace. I can't tell where it came from, but I'm grateful and don't care to argue who helped bring it to me.
In my 70 years of living, I've seen "Religious" people be compassionate and I've seen Atheists reach out to alleviate suffering. I've come to believe that as Rabbi Kushner pointed out in When Bad Things Happen to Good People, that G.. exists in the many acts of goodness amidst suffering.
And it doesn't matter what those blessed souls call themselves.
When I startle myself with some "thoughtless" act of kindness, I always thank whatever force it is, that has given me that bit of grace. I can't tell where it came from, but I'm grateful and don't care to argue who helped bring it to me.
In my 70 years of living, I've seen "Religious" people be compassionate and I've seen Atheists reach out to alleviate suffering. I've come to believe that as Rabbi Kushner pointed out in When Bad Things Happen to Good People, that G.. exists in the many acts of goodness amidst suffering.
And it doesn't matter what those blessed souls call themselves.
2
Thank you, Jocko.
Universal Unitarianism. They believe in everything.
The universe is diversity. There is not the same two anything in existence. There is no absolute good or absolute evil. And the universe loves it all.
The universe is diversity. There is not the same two anything in existence. There is no absolute good or absolute evil. And the universe loves it all.
1
"If certain religious services were less about preening about one’s own virtue or pointing fingers at somebody else’s iniquity and more about tackling human needs around us, this would be a better world..." Enough said!
All religions are someone else's interpretation of the Bible or other religious texts used to control a group of "believers" just as politics today is someone else's interpretation of the Constitution used for the same purposes. And politics and religion have gone hand-in-hand since the beginning of time. Neither the Bible nor the Constitution is the "word of God" but they are stories and guidelines drawn by thoughtful men as to life's conduct in an ever-changing world.
Those who manipulate and misconstrue any text for their own benefit, whether actually believing it or not, do a huge disservice to the people they serve now as well as those thoughtful enough to have constructed those texts in the past. Both religion and politics need an informed, thoughtful approach by each person, individually, to decide what tenets are true for them and to embark on a path to live, and help others live, the best life possible.
All religions are someone else's interpretation of the Bible or other religious texts used to control a group of "believers" just as politics today is someone else's interpretation of the Constitution used for the same purposes. And politics and religion have gone hand-in-hand since the beginning of time. Neither the Bible nor the Constitution is the "word of God" but they are stories and guidelines drawn by thoughtful men as to life's conduct in an ever-changing world.
Those who manipulate and misconstrue any text for their own benefit, whether actually believing it or not, do a huge disservice to the people they serve now as well as those thoughtful enough to have constructed those texts in the past. Both religion and politics need an informed, thoughtful approach by each person, individually, to decide what tenets are true for them and to embark on a path to live, and help others live, the best life possible.
5
Yiddishkeit. To answer your question.
3
Give us Americans some credit. The four Gospels were written by John, Paul, George and Ringo (Pete's was never finished and forgotten since he was fired from the group); like millions of Americans I've had a Job for years now; the Eucharist is an ancient form of the modern card game euchre; and the epistles are existential apostles, not females.
I'll admit, however, I'm not certain who was Noah's wife.
I'll admit, however, I'm not certain who was Noah's wife.
6
Richard Thompson Jr.:
She's unnamed because she was a woman. His three sons are named.
Furthermore, there are two Flood stories. (They are different: in one God commands Moses to take with in seven pairs of clean animals and only 1 pair of unclean animals; the other version states two (a male and a female) of each kind of animal.) It's the same thing with the creation stories. In one God creates the animals before he creates humans. In the other He creates humans before the animals.
I always wonder how the fundamentals who believe in inerrancy in the Bible find these and other verses compatible??
She's unnamed because she was a woman. His three sons are named.
Furthermore, there are two Flood stories. (They are different: in one God commands Moses to take with in seven pairs of clean animals and only 1 pair of unclean animals; the other version states two (a male and a female) of each kind of animal.) It's the same thing with the creation stories. In one God creates the animals before he creates humans. In the other He creates humans before the animals.
I always wonder how the fundamentals who believe in inerrancy in the Bible find these and other verses compatible??
1
What if we ask instead, "What religion DID Jesus belong to?" I think it's clear he was an observant Jew from his birth until his death. His life story was borrowed and adapted by St. Paul, in ways that probably distort our picture of the historical Jesus. Although I have always been a Christian, I do not believe Jesus truly intended to start a new religion. I like to think his last words on the cross were the Shema ("Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one"), which Jews traditionally recite as they are about to die. No, of course I can't prove that (supposedly, that tradition began later). But it's interesting that the Gospels differ on what his last words were.
156
"What Religion Would Jesus Belong To?"
Let me offer you a clue Nick. He would be Jewish because he was Jewish. Too many have ignored or denied that fact.
Let me offer you a clue Nick. He would be Jewish because he was Jewish. Too many have ignored or denied that fact.
17
After over 2000 years, he'd now be a sensible atheist.
6
What religion would Jesus belong to? Perhaps his religion would be love itself.
3
Remain faithful to reporting about human rights. Your perception of Christ is a sin all its own; borderline unpardonable.
The values you attribute to your upbringing lost, apparently to secular humanism. Which still leaves you with enough humanity do some good, even if heretical.
The values you attribute to your upbringing lost, apparently to secular humanism. Which still leaves you with enough humanity do some good, even if heretical.
My father, a Bertrand Russell-stye agnostic, taught us as children his approach: Make the world a better place by your presence and do good for others. If God exists he'll be proud and pleased; if he doesn't exist, you'll have lived a good life and lost nothing in the process. Worked for me. Still does. The only "organized" religion that ever held any appeal was the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) whose emphasis was on putting faith into practice. But I follow my dad's approach whether or not I'm attending meeting.
8
"WWJD"? Social justice. People calling themselves Christians who don't follow that simple creed aren't behaving in a way Jesus would. His teachings have been perverted beyond belief, as is pointed out so well in this column. The so-called "prosperity" church Trump visited this week, to show off how he could actually go into a building that was full of black people, is a church Jesus would have had nothing to do with. In my experience, it's easier for people to "preen about one's own virtue or point fingers at someone else's iniquity" than volunteer at a soup kitchen or have compassion for the proverbial leper. What's so difficult about loving one's neighbor as oneself, no matter what one's religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) are?
5
Yes, a rabbi battling for Palestinian human rights. Well, one has to admit there are plenty of those (when you prick us do we Jews not ooze sanctimony and self-criticism?). I wonder why Kristof didn't happen to choose as an example someone who founded a Jewish studies program in an Arab university--maybe because of the inherent absurdity of the idea? Imagine actually being curious about your enemy.
4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAaW6BYhfNM
Jesus had two things in common with the Buddha.
a) the importance of peace and non-violence. Compare to Moses who massacred those Jews who did not accept the Ten Commandments.
b) leaving the world and becoming a wanderer. The Buddha did this as did Jesus and his apostles. But it is very far from the Judaic strong family tradition.
But there is also a huge difference. Jesus clearly believed in God and it is equally clear that Buddha did not.
So there is influence from the Buddha to Jesus but not more.
Jesus had two things in common with the Buddha.
a) the importance of peace and non-violence. Compare to Moses who massacred those Jews who did not accept the Ten Commandments.
b) leaving the world and becoming a wanderer. The Buddha did this as did Jesus and his apostles. But it is very far from the Judaic strong family tradition.
But there is also a huge difference. Jesus clearly believed in God and it is equally clear that Buddha did not.
So there is influence from the Buddha to Jesus but not more.
I agree with Mr. Kristoff
I would only emphasize. You don't have to be religiously motivated to do charitable work. There are many courageous non secular groups. Doctors Without Borders, Greenpeace spring to mind. The ACLU, Planned Parenthood, Amnesty International, Sierra Club, etc.
I would only emphasize. You don't have to be religiously motivated to do charitable work. There are many courageous non secular groups. Doctors Without Borders, Greenpeace spring to mind. The ACLU, Planned Parenthood, Amnesty International, Sierra Club, etc.
4
As a longtime Episcopal priest, I can't agree more with your observations. Over the years I have spent dealing with the real hurts of our communities and for that I am grateful to have received this special call for ministry.
2
No mention of the Holocaust? What would Jesus say? What did the Pope do?
3
Jesus was a Jew. Putting aside religious doctrine, in the historical context Roman Palestine, Jesus would have seen himself as a Jew who had serious issues with the power elites of his day (be they the Romans or the rabbinate). The creation of a separate religion distinct from Judaism was primarily the work of Paul of Tarsus. Jesus would have hardly expected to have been remembered today in the manner that he is when he was dying on the cross. I believe that Nikos Kazantzakis capture this view of Jesus effectively in "The Last Temptation of Christ" (also the Martin Scorcese film).
The Abrahamic people are linked by blood, theology and history. Muslims consider Jesus (along with Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist and Mary) as their most important prophets after Muhammad. Jesus as the Christ is the central figure of Christianity, enough said. Yet, he was a Jew.
Having said all this, the teachings of Jesus Christ have bearing and meaning for all people. I believe that even atheists can find much in Jesus's teachings that they can agree on. One can reject that there are gods, or the God of Abraham, or that Jesus was the son of God. The Sermon on the Mount, however, should touch at least a few nerves in people who reject injustice anywhere and at any time.
The Abrahamic people are linked by blood, theology and history. Muslims consider Jesus (along with Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist and Mary) as their most important prophets after Muhammad. Jesus as the Christ is the central figure of Christianity, enough said. Yet, he was a Jew.
Having said all this, the teachings of Jesus Christ have bearing and meaning for all people. I believe that even atheists can find much in Jesus's teachings that they can agree on. One can reject that there are gods, or the God of Abraham, or that Jesus was the son of God. The Sermon on the Mount, however, should touch at least a few nerves in people who reject injustice anywhere and at any time.
6
Jesush born to the Jewish faith threw the hypocrites from the Temple. If Jesus walked amongst us today I doubt he would find any organized religion a kindred home. Unfortunately the church pews and the mosques are filled with hypocrites. But there are those amongst each group worthy of being called kind, spiritual and honest. He would stand beside those brave souls and lend them a helping hand as all of us should.
4
The further we advance as a society, the more we see that religion and morality often times do not go hand in hand, and that one does not equal the other.
As a former Christian turned agnostic, I remember experiencing firsthand how Christianity utilizes its most useful and most dangerous tool; institutionalized guilt. I would believe things simply because "I would go to hell if I didn't" or "I must not have been a real Christian". It didn't take long for me to realize how arbitrary, confusing, and ultimately impossible of a religion it is.
I do not doubt that there are sincere people that operate as a result of their faith. However, I am very skeptical of most people who label themselves as Christians, as I believe that Christianity and religion in general, is a facade that people exploit to feel ok about themselves and to market to those around them that they are "moral" and "sincere" people when often times it is just that: a facade.
To quote Alan Watts, "if people were Christians they would be screaming in the streets...they're not screaming in the streets".
As a former Christian turned agnostic, I remember experiencing firsthand how Christianity utilizes its most useful and most dangerous tool; institutionalized guilt. I would believe things simply because "I would go to hell if I didn't" or "I must not have been a real Christian". It didn't take long for me to realize how arbitrary, confusing, and ultimately impossible of a religion it is.
I do not doubt that there are sincere people that operate as a result of their faith. However, I am very skeptical of most people who label themselves as Christians, as I believe that Christianity and religion in general, is a facade that people exploit to feel ok about themselves and to market to those around them that they are "moral" and "sincere" people when often times it is just that: a facade.
To quote Alan Watts, "if people were Christians they would be screaming in the streets...they're not screaming in the streets".
2
One doesn't need religion at all, just empathy. Doctrine should be replaced by doctoring, and faith as well as prayer... by action.
4
I am not sure which religion Jesus would belong to but I can tell you he and his religion would not manifest the hatred of mankind around the planet like the media and people in this world are doing today.
1
"There is not enough love and goodness in the world to be permitted to give any of it away to imaginary beings." Nietzsche was right. Intolerance is central to religion. There is something repugnant and disingenuous about dogma and doctrine that denies women autonomy, LGBT people freedom and dignity, indoctrinates children to believe and practice symbolic barbarities like communion. and tries to inflict medieval beliefs on secular society.
5
Of course Jesus lived, and died, a Jew. It was Paul who 70 years later changed interpretation of his life & death, and who invented Christianity,
18
" It was Paul who 70 years later "
Yes it was Paul who never met ,saw or heard Jesus, who created the foundation of Christianity by inventing who he thought Jesus was but the actual followers of Jesus eg the disciples were ,like Jesus, Torah observant Jews who believed in Mosaic law thus they were unfriendly to gentiles. Paul however died in Rome c60-65 CE but as at least 4 of Paul`s 13 letters that became part of the New Testament were not written by him & another 3 letters/books had more than 1 author according to biblical scholars. So your 70 yrs after Jesus might be right for the other authors of Paul`s letters/New Testament.
Yes it was Paul who never met ,saw or heard Jesus, who created the foundation of Christianity by inventing who he thought Jesus was but the actual followers of Jesus eg the disciples were ,like Jesus, Torah observant Jews who believed in Mosaic law thus they were unfriendly to gentiles. Paul however died in Rome c60-65 CE but as at least 4 of Paul`s 13 letters that became part of the New Testament were not written by him & another 3 letters/books had more than 1 author according to biblical scholars. So your 70 yrs after Jesus might be right for the other authors of Paul`s letters/New Testament.
As yet another anniversary of 9/11 approaches, and we think about "religion" as in the article here, let us consider a venue of goodwill and faith - which we may or may not perceive as "religion".
St. Paul's Chapel in lower Manhattan stands only yards from The World Trade Center area. Yet, having been built in the 1760's, and with all its antiquities, the building withstood that earth shattering September, 2001, tragedy.
St. Paul's became a major site of comfort, nutrition, meditation, gathering of souls. Thousands of meals were served out of St. Paul's to the many workers at Ground Zero. The pews became rest stops, harboring those that were exhausted.
No matter those who "believed" or did not "believe" St. Paul's was inclusive. This was not about Christianity, or Judaism, or Muslim, or whatever. This was about humanity serving humanity. And that St. Paul's did, day and night.
When I still walk into that wonder of historical architecture, I regain my spirit of faith - not in any "religious" type, but in faith of humankind. It is a shame it takes a tragedy sometimes, to bring out the humanness of us all. But I can't recall a time in my life where that outreach, that unbiased kindness, will touch my soul. I am still touched thinking about it.
The biblical verse, Mathew 11:28 says "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." St. Paul's lived that verse. Maybe that's what Mr. Kristof is talking about here. I think so.
St. Paul's Chapel in lower Manhattan stands only yards from The World Trade Center area. Yet, having been built in the 1760's, and with all its antiquities, the building withstood that earth shattering September, 2001, tragedy.
St. Paul's became a major site of comfort, nutrition, meditation, gathering of souls. Thousands of meals were served out of St. Paul's to the many workers at Ground Zero. The pews became rest stops, harboring those that were exhausted.
No matter those who "believed" or did not "believe" St. Paul's was inclusive. This was not about Christianity, or Judaism, or Muslim, or whatever. This was about humanity serving humanity. And that St. Paul's did, day and night.
When I still walk into that wonder of historical architecture, I regain my spirit of faith - not in any "religious" type, but in faith of humankind. It is a shame it takes a tragedy sometimes, to bring out the humanness of us all. But I can't recall a time in my life where that outreach, that unbiased kindness, will touch my soul. I am still touched thinking about it.
The biblical verse, Mathew 11:28 says "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." St. Paul's lived that verse. Maybe that's what Mr. Kristof is talking about here. I think so.
3
"It is not the bureaucracy that inspires me, or doctrine, or ancient rituals, or even the most glorious cathedral, temple or mosque, but rather a Catholic missionary doctor in Sudan treating bomb victims, an evangelical physician achieving the impossible in rural Angola, a rabbi battling for Palestinians’ human rights — they fill me with an almost holy sense of awe."
A moving sentence, Mr. Kristof. But strike the timid "almost."
A moving sentence, Mr. Kristof. But strike the timid "almost."
1
(God Appears and God is Light
To those poor Souls who dwell in Night
But does a Human Form Display
To those who Dwell in Realms of day.
—William Blake, Auguries of Innocence)
To those poor Souls who dwell in Night
But does a Human Form Display
To those who Dwell in Realms of day.
—William Blake, Auguries of Innocence)
1
Just to clarify, the Buddhists in Myanmar are not redefining the religion. They are a small group of people who have lost the basic mission, which is generally retained in all the various schools and sects. There's no analogy here to the centuries of oppression of women in Islam, or the required belief in the devil by Christianity in the Middle Ages and Renaissance.
That said, there are really two aspects to any viable religion. One is the hard path, traveled by the extremely disciplined followers, often monastic but not always, where deep, spiritual accomplishment and awakening is the goal. On this path are many routes which can include living in the world and seeing every moment as an opportunity to practice and advance realization.
The other aspect is that of the spiritual path of people who wish to bring their hearts to everyday experience, and seek to help themselves and others along the route. This is the path of most people who acknowledge a spiritual need inside themselves and work to bring respect, dignity, and humbleness to the actions inspired by the spiritual heart. Love.
Jesus may have been an Essene, was definitely on the first path, as were his close associates. He, no doubt, studied with some masters, attained a high level of realization, and brought this path to others who wanted it. Among his followers were people of both paths.
There really doesn't need to be anything different today. The central point is to be selfless and act from there.
That said, there are really two aspects to any viable religion. One is the hard path, traveled by the extremely disciplined followers, often monastic but not always, where deep, spiritual accomplishment and awakening is the goal. On this path are many routes which can include living in the world and seeing every moment as an opportunity to practice and advance realization.
The other aspect is that of the spiritual path of people who wish to bring their hearts to everyday experience, and seek to help themselves and others along the route. This is the path of most people who acknowledge a spiritual need inside themselves and work to bring respect, dignity, and humbleness to the actions inspired by the spiritual heart. Love.
Jesus may have been an Essene, was definitely on the first path, as were his close associates. He, no doubt, studied with some masters, attained a high level of realization, and brought this path to others who wanted it. Among his followers were people of both paths.
There really doesn't need to be anything different today. The central point is to be selfless and act from there.
I've studied early Christianity very carefully and the teachings we can confirm from Jesus bear little resemblance to today's version of the religion. The trinity isn't found in the New Testament, Paul didn't believe in physical resurrection, and Jesus didn't comment on gays or abortion. I've concluded the the Gnostic heresy is the only one that makes sense of the relationship of the New to the Old Testament. You can read a free chapter of my book www.GodReconsidered.com
Christianity has always puzzled me because of the speed with which the original message of Jesus was perverted. The early Christians were great destroyers of pagan writings and very intolerant of others, especially uppity women like Hypatia of Alexandria, who was slashed to ribbons at the hands of a Christian mob.
Then we have the Crusades. The Crusader army, on its way to the Holy Land in the First Crusade, robbed and murdered God knows how many Jews as a sort of warm-up for killing Muslims. Their excuse was that to kill non-believers was pleasing to God. Then, on taking Jerusalem, the Christians slaughtered literally thousands of non-combatants, presumably for the same reason.
The good Christians who settled in North America said and did some extremely un-Christian things to the natives, and there was also that little matter of slavery.
Given how Christians have acted over the centuries, I doubt seriously that Jesus would be a Christian.
I find all major organized religions to by hypocritical beyond my tolerance level. I'm a deist, or a secular humanist, or something, and happy to be one.
Then we have the Crusades. The Crusader army, on its way to the Holy Land in the First Crusade, robbed and murdered God knows how many Jews as a sort of warm-up for killing Muslims. Their excuse was that to kill non-believers was pleasing to God. Then, on taking Jerusalem, the Christians slaughtered literally thousands of non-combatants, presumably for the same reason.
The good Christians who settled in North America said and did some extremely un-Christian things to the natives, and there was also that little matter of slavery.
Given how Christians have acted over the centuries, I doubt seriously that Jesus would be a Christian.
I find all major organized religions to by hypocritical beyond my tolerance level. I'm a deist, or a secular humanist, or something, and happy to be one.
16
Atheism is the only true religion.
4
Outstanding column, Mr. Kristof! You've encapsulated much of what I find problematic about Christianity.
But when you write "Remember that on average religious Americans donate far more to charity...", I feel the need, as a church treasurer since 2009, to comment.
Giving by religious Americans to their churches is tax deductible as a charitable contribution, so there's a surface appearance that religious Americans give more to charity. But where is that giving going? Again, as a church treasurer, I have a front row seat.
Were churches subject to review by Charity Navigator or Charity Watch, I believe many would fail miserably. The reason is that many churches spend 90-95% of their received giving on running the church itself, through salaries, benefits, operating expenses (electricity, gas, water, etc.) and capital expenses (major repairs to building infrastructure). The remaining 5-10% might actually go toward charity. Yes, there may be churches where more is given to outside charity (I know of several), but I'll bet my 5-10% applies to many, if not most.
A better measure would be how much religious Americans give to charity outside of their churches. I don't know how they'd compare to non-religious Americans, but I have a suspicion the numbers would be very close.
But when you write "Remember that on average religious Americans donate far more to charity...", I feel the need, as a church treasurer since 2009, to comment.
Giving by religious Americans to their churches is tax deductible as a charitable contribution, so there's a surface appearance that religious Americans give more to charity. But where is that giving going? Again, as a church treasurer, I have a front row seat.
Were churches subject to review by Charity Navigator or Charity Watch, I believe many would fail miserably. The reason is that many churches spend 90-95% of their received giving on running the church itself, through salaries, benefits, operating expenses (electricity, gas, water, etc.) and capital expenses (major repairs to building infrastructure). The remaining 5-10% might actually go toward charity. Yes, there may be churches where more is given to outside charity (I know of several), but I'll bet my 5-10% applies to many, if not most.
A better measure would be how much religious Americans give to charity outside of their churches. I don't know how they'd compare to non-religious Americans, but I have a suspicion the numbers would be very close.
5
I believe Jesus would have avoided identifying himself with any of the religions that man has egotistically devised to suit himself but attributed to God. Jesus would have set an example of brotherhood for us to follow. He would have asked us to live good lives of helping one another; he would not have asked us to count beads, recite dogma, or go to war against our brothers and sisters. Perhaps, the Quakers would get his approval for their simple brotherhood.
144
What happened to religion?
Let put in this way, Institutionalized. That explains everything.
What religion suffers today , Government suffers too.
We are in election season, one of the most rhetorical opinion is Government is a giant bureaucracy or too big, or too suffocating.
Think that 5000 years old Judaism, 2000 years old Christianity 1500 years old Islam are dynamic and satisfying their believers or getting extremely calcified institutions.
I believe for this problem no remedy exists, It is inevitable religions are going to loose their core believers. but superficially ( attached) believers will be even increase.
Honestly , I try to educate my self about religion, I read three Abrahamic religions books or well written books about them particularly theological aspect. I come up my own belief about Abrahamic religions. It is quite okay and spiritually satisfying.
I agree with Kristof , real issue is not extremely entangled institution of religion, Today we are post renascence era , we can shape our belief without dogma.
Try to be a good member of society, nothing more than that.
Let put in this way, Institutionalized. That explains everything.
What religion suffers today , Government suffers too.
We are in election season, one of the most rhetorical opinion is Government is a giant bureaucracy or too big, or too suffocating.
Think that 5000 years old Judaism, 2000 years old Christianity 1500 years old Islam are dynamic and satisfying their believers or getting extremely calcified institutions.
I believe for this problem no remedy exists, It is inevitable religions are going to loose their core believers. but superficially ( attached) believers will be even increase.
Honestly , I try to educate my self about religion, I read three Abrahamic religions books or well written books about them particularly theological aspect. I come up my own belief about Abrahamic religions. It is quite okay and spiritually satisfying.
I agree with Kristof , real issue is not extremely entangled institution of religion, Today we are post renascence era , we can shape our belief without dogma.
Try to be a good member of society, nothing more than that.
The "founders" of all religions worthy of the name (though I doubt Jesus, the Buddha, etc. saw themselves as "founding" a "religion") pretty much preached some version or another of The Golden Rule. It takes not a lot of thought to realize that to actually live by that prescription demands fearlessness.
Unfortunately, fear is one of the, if not the, most powerful of all human instincts. That's precisely why we praise and revere those who seem, at least, to live a life where 'turning the other cheek' is fundamental to their nature. Love for others, after all, is seen as sacred and holy while fear and hatred are seen as love's opposite.
The lives, the teachings of those "founders" are what we should all aspire to while recognizing that, in this flawed world where 'turning the other cheek' may end up with you getting your throat cut, we need to be careful while we try to do the "sacred," the "holy."
But, at a minimum, we should not become a part of that fear-filled human contingent where 'cutting the other person's throat' first (or some metaphorical equivalent) is considered to be the best way to be "safe" in this world. Remember, we reap what we sow. Fear and hate, ultimately, beget more of the same
Also see the exaltation of that newly-minted fear monger to potentially the highest office in the land. That should cause any thinking person, no matter how concerned with "safety," a great deal of pause and concern with just how powerful that fear instinct is.
Unfortunately, fear is one of the, if not the, most powerful of all human instincts. That's precisely why we praise and revere those who seem, at least, to live a life where 'turning the other cheek' is fundamental to their nature. Love for others, after all, is seen as sacred and holy while fear and hatred are seen as love's opposite.
The lives, the teachings of those "founders" are what we should all aspire to while recognizing that, in this flawed world where 'turning the other cheek' may end up with you getting your throat cut, we need to be careful while we try to do the "sacred," the "holy."
But, at a minimum, we should not become a part of that fear-filled human contingent where 'cutting the other person's throat' first (or some metaphorical equivalent) is considered to be the best way to be "safe" in this world. Remember, we reap what we sow. Fear and hate, ultimately, beget more of the same
Also see the exaltation of that newly-minted fear monger to potentially the highest office in the land. That should cause any thinking person, no matter how concerned with "safety," a great deal of pause and concern with just how powerful that fear instinct is.
2
People--It's not real--none of it! Your believing it does not make it real.
3
What Religion Would Jesus Belong To? Let's assume that Jesus actually existed. If so, he was obviously Jewish (just like I am) but that's not a religion but ethnicity. Clearly, he was both a good guy and a smart one. As such, I bet he would have been simply nonreligious. Not an atheist. Just simply nonreligous. G.d bless Jesus.
2
In answer to the question posed in the title of the essay, I can do no better than say that Jesus would have been a member of the Religious Society of Friends - in other words a Quaker. I can not elaborate on that notion - I just kept coming back to that thought as I read to the end.
The religious give more--it depends on how you define "charity." And the poor give more, and are more likely to be religious. It doesn't take religion to run a soup kitchen. It takes valuing compassion.
Throughout the ages, no concept has been used to kill or torture more people than that of "God." This idea actually turns us away from each other, when each other is all we've got.
Throughout the ages, no concept has been used to kill or torture more people than that of "God." This idea actually turns us away from each other, when each other is all we've got.
An inconvenient truth for Mr. Kristof's implied thesis, that less doctrinal religion represents a better way and perhaps a more appealing way, is that the churches who have most liberalized doctrine and minimized the literal meaning of scripture are also the churches and denominations that are dying out most rapidly. The number of people belonging to fundamentalist and evangelical churches is actually growing.
1
A lapsed Catholic, I have no idea whether there is a deity but I do know that whatever is taught as religion was cooked up by humans. They don't know any more than I do. For that matter, atheism is just as big a leap of faith as belief. They don't know, either.
Religion and religious people do bad, religion and religious people do good. I can criticize theocracies like the crazy ISIS people -- but when I look at the non-religious societies, such as the former Soviet Union or North Korea, I don't exactly see heaven-on-earth, either.
There is no set way to goodness and kindness. Whatever gets you do human decency is what you should do.
Religion and religious people do bad, religion and religious people do good. I can criticize theocracies like the crazy ISIS people -- but when I look at the non-religious societies, such as the former Soviet Union or North Korea, I don't exactly see heaven-on-earth, either.
There is no set way to goodness and kindness. Whatever gets you do human decency is what you should do.
1
Kristof is promoting morality, with religion serving as nothing more than an excuse to be moral. I'd recommend thinking a little bit more about what faith and ritual might contribute to our lives before dismissing it as dead weight that some happen to bear on the moral way.
1
If Jesus were seriously intelligent, he would be an atheist. And a scientist.
4
Jesus was a Jew. That's what he would have been because that's what he was.
Why do you ask?
Why do you ask?
10
Despite teachings that Jesus was the First Christian, the man was born, lived, and died a Jew.
I refer curious readers to the scholarly book "Zealot," which is an historical account of the life of Jesus written without reliance upon mysteries and miracles.
I refer curious readers to the scholarly book "Zealot," which is an historical account of the life of Jesus written without reliance upon mysteries and miracles.
5
Setting aside doctrine can make a great deal of sense. Christ's life begins with the ridiculous birth and ends with the bizarre resurrection. As if.
And certainly, acts of sacrifice or bravery can fill us with awe, reminding us that there truly is a Force for Good at work in the world. The example that comes to mind, for me, is Ambassador Robert Ford's response to the siege of our embassy in Syria in 2010 by a pro-government group, in retaliation for his perceived support for anti-government protestors, from a profile in Baltimore Magazine. When the Marines told him they would shoot if these people got through the iron door, Mr. Ford commanded them not to shoot unless they made for the embassy staff.
Pretty much anyone else in the world would have set aside his very real desire to avoid bloodshed the moment the iron door got broken down or blown up or whatever one does to get through an iron door. (Those Marines were so young, too, only about twenty-one.)
But that's the order the Ambassador gave: not to shoot unless there was some real sign that they'd come to do his people harm, because all he knew for sure was that they were trying to get in the room; and the group was eventually dispersed by the Syrian police.
The order not to shoot unless they went for the staff was bizarre, ridiculous, and *right*. We've failed to teach what Christ taught: how to hear the voice that makes all the sense in the world; and the one that quietly says: you don't know that for sure.
And certainly, acts of sacrifice or bravery can fill us with awe, reminding us that there truly is a Force for Good at work in the world. The example that comes to mind, for me, is Ambassador Robert Ford's response to the siege of our embassy in Syria in 2010 by a pro-government group, in retaliation for his perceived support for anti-government protestors, from a profile in Baltimore Magazine. When the Marines told him they would shoot if these people got through the iron door, Mr. Ford commanded them not to shoot unless they made for the embassy staff.
Pretty much anyone else in the world would have set aside his very real desire to avoid bloodshed the moment the iron door got broken down or blown up or whatever one does to get through an iron door. (Those Marines were so young, too, only about twenty-one.)
But that's the order the Ambassador gave: not to shoot unless there was some real sign that they'd come to do his people harm, because all he knew for sure was that they were trying to get in the room; and the group was eventually dispersed by the Syrian police.
The order not to shoot unless they went for the staff was bizarre, ridiculous, and *right*. We've failed to teach what Christ taught: how to hear the voice that makes all the sense in the world; and the one that quietly says: you don't know that for sure.
I'm betting Jesus would be an Athiest.
He would recognise that humanity has grown up enough not to need religion as a crutch. He would follow true to form telling his disciples that, that they only true measure of happiness comes from throwing off our needless superstitions.
At a certain time, he would have dinner with his apostles. He would look over at Clinton and say "Hillary you will betray me, but I forgive you." Simply because politically it needed to be said. He will look over at Christopher Hitchens and say "On your rock I will build my church." He will look out at the pastafarians and laugh.
Then he will climb up on a cross made of science textbooks, all by his lonesome. Nailing himself to this cross he will say "Tootles, it's been fun. Try not to use my name to justify your own petty hate anymore." Then dying, Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit, would disseappear never to have been.
And the world, from that point onward, will not be a better place or a worse place, but like always, it will be the place humans have made it.
He would recognise that humanity has grown up enough not to need religion as a crutch. He would follow true to form telling his disciples that, that they only true measure of happiness comes from throwing off our needless superstitions.
At a certain time, he would have dinner with his apostles. He would look over at Clinton and say "Hillary you will betray me, but I forgive you." Simply because politically it needed to be said. He will look over at Christopher Hitchens and say "On your rock I will build my church." He will look out at the pastafarians and laugh.
Then he will climb up on a cross made of science textbooks, all by his lonesome. Nailing himself to this cross he will say "Tootles, it's been fun. Try not to use my name to justify your own petty hate anymore." Then dying, Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit, would disseappear never to have been.
And the world, from that point onward, will not be a better place or a worse place, but like always, it will be the place humans have made it.
111
That's an utterly stupid question. No living master ever belonged to a religion. Religion is what his confused followers created after he died
2
If Jesus came back to earth today, he would be devastated by the meanness and selfishness of so-called Christians that evolved from his teachings. He would condemn the politicization of Christian values today as demonstrated by the supporters of Donald Trump. He would wonder how his message failed so miserably and might decide that it's time to go back to the drawing board and start all over.
3
It seems that the greatest shadow of current institutional religions, especially within Christian-based sects in the U.S, is the hollow emphasis on 'posturing' Goodness aimed toward adherents within the same focus group. It functions as a defensive persona practiced unconsciously by many who feel little responsibility of either building a foundation of honest self awareness, or developing the rational understanding and appreciation of people outside of one's formulaic assumptions.
The suggestions that it should be required in school curricula that students take Comparative Religion would make a difference in social behavior, and so would the requirement of taking General and Social Psychology. These basic humanities classes offer the tools for a deeper foundation in developing beliefs and actions through considered ethical choices.
To live a responsible life in our increasingly diverse communities, it takes real work to be authentically alive, responsibly aware, and able to act beyond one's comfort zone of conditioned expectations. That approach has a better chance of eliciting the foundation of 'Love' and compassion that Jesus and other spiritual leaders have pointed to than what we see of the 'Trumpeting' by small selves camouflaged as Good Christians, Good Buddhists, etc.
Our current political nightmare is an example of short-sighted emphasis on the appearances of integrity versus the reality of it, and is by its nature is, underwritten in divisive religious terms.
The suggestions that it should be required in school curricula that students take Comparative Religion would make a difference in social behavior, and so would the requirement of taking General and Social Psychology. These basic humanities classes offer the tools for a deeper foundation in developing beliefs and actions through considered ethical choices.
To live a responsible life in our increasingly diverse communities, it takes real work to be authentically alive, responsibly aware, and able to act beyond one's comfort zone of conditioned expectations. That approach has a better chance of eliciting the foundation of 'Love' and compassion that Jesus and other spiritual leaders have pointed to than what we see of the 'Trumpeting' by small selves camouflaged as Good Christians, Good Buddhists, etc.
Our current political nightmare is an example of short-sighted emphasis on the appearances of integrity versus the reality of it, and is by its nature is, underwritten in divisive religious terms.
1
I'd like to think if Jesus made an appearance today he would say, "I never told you to start a religion- I told you to love God" .. Historically that's pretty much what he said- for the most part at least.
5
I think Jesus would be most comfortable today spending time with the Dali Lama, whose personal religion he describes as "kindness." Like Jesus, the DL believes in strength as well as wholehearted compassion.
Maybe Jesus would think Pope Francis was okay, but he would definitely look askance at the gilded trappings and weird sexual rules and misconduct of the Catholic church.
I think Jesus would be repulsed by our American pastors - those prosperity focused and power hungry whose kindness only belongs to those like them - when they toe the line.
Maybe Jesus would think Pope Francis was okay, but he would definitely look askance at the gilded trappings and weird sexual rules and misconduct of the Catholic church.
I think Jesus would be repulsed by our American pastors - those prosperity focused and power hungry whose kindness only belongs to those like them - when they toe the line.
2
What's happening is that Christendom is finally doing what it needed to. That's to animate the body of Christ on Earth. The traditions of men running religion into denominations didn't stand up to the tests of time. You saw how stupid American Christians are. You think our kids want to spend time they could be communicating with their community texting- sitting on a wooden pew? Walls mean nothing. We have mega churches vacuuming money on air for missionary work abroad when it's obvious they did nothing for the pagans at home. Really it's very exciting seeing the return to God outside of the retailed religious experience the media sees. The revolution people have been talking about has it's own spiritual arena within it. They call a lot of it activism but it's what we used to consider the Christian way. Change dot org and Go fund me are similar to church deacons deciding how to spend the monthly tything. Getting the aide to those in need is the Body of Christ on Earth in action. Ergo, He Lives and things are going to change. They have been changing and the resistance to this new era is our collective enemy.