Whats the course of action for a security force when a mob goes out of control and get violent? Do we expect the security forces to sit and twiddle thumbs or engage in crowd control exercise? The answer to these questions will be very uncomfortable to those crying over these "peaceful protesters". I am sure the people blaming the use of pellet guns wanted the security forces to use deadly means because that would been a very convenient issue to make. Truth is that there are people who are stoking these fires to push their agenda and these people are not on the streets with the kashmiris, they are sitting somewhere else watching the kashmiris die for them. Who benefits when kashmir burns? Not the Indian government, and certainly not the kashmiris. The only one's who benefit are the people who are calling the shots in Pakistan. I am not saying pakistani govt is responsible, because no one knows who actually controls pakistan. But certainly the incitement and the trigger comes from pakistan. They are the only beneficiaries.
2
The biggest question is, what was a 8 year old or a pregnant women or as a matter of fact anyone doing on the roads when people are pelting stones and they are being handled with pellet guns. Its the people who need to rak up their brains and decide for themselves what's right for them and their families. Sending their own small children and youth for a cause they are also not aware is nothing more than stupidity.
1
These atrocities by the Indian occupation forces should surprise no one. The Indian PM Modi is a certified mass murderer who as documented by Human Rights Watch orchestrated a pogrom in his state of Gujarat slaughtering thousands of Muslim men, women, and children, many of them doused with gasoline and burned alive by Hindutva mobs. Like Milosevic, he deserves to be dragged by the scruff of his neck to an international tribunal. Meanwhile, the American guardians of "international human rights" remain silent and complicit as in the case of the occupied Palestinians or as they were with Apartheid South Africa for so long.
2
Kashmir is under curfew for past 50 days, 74 people killed, 570 pellet gun injuries to the eyes, and over 8000 injured. There is no mobile phone service, no internet service.People are confined to indoors, when people come out to protest peacefully, they are not allowed the basic right of assembly or demonstration. Curfew is clamped down, that infuriated youngsters , who start pellet stones. Young children who have injuries were bystanders. No parent wants to see his child blinded by pellet guns. There are no Jihadi's involved, this is Indian propaganda. They lie at the highest level, that only 5% of Kahmiris's are agitating. Why is then curfew clamped down on whole of Kashmir for 50 days and 750 thousand troops controlling the streets. Indian Government doesn't want massive demonstrations to be seen by people outside Kashmir, chanting "Azadi" freedom for Indian occuant.
Hafiz
Hafiz
The Muslims of PrePartition India wanted a land where Muslims, who did not want to live with Hindus, could go and settle. Muslims got their wish. Pakistan was created. While Muslims then constituted 23% of the population of the subcontinent they were given 27% of the land. The two nations were created with the understanding that they will function as democracies and the minorities would be protected. Pakistan turned into theocracy and then went to ethnically cleanse Hindus from Pakistan. In 70 years Hindus in Pakistan dwindled from 27% of the population to less than 1%. In Bangladesh they have been cleansed out from 39% of the population to 9 %. In contrast in India, Hindus have not only treated Muslims fairly but have bent over backwards to accommodate their special needs, and they have grown from 7 % of the population to 15 %. Muslims do not deserve any more land where Hindus cannot live. Kashmiris have been given all kinds of subsidies and pampered beyond belief. Nevertheless because of their belief system instead of showing gratitude they have done everything possible to harm India. The problem of Kashmir is inability of Muslims to live with others - for that matter even with their own kind - in peace. If Kashmiris cannot live with Hindus - they ethnically cleansed out Kashmiri Pandits - despite the Indians having done so much for them, they should go to Pakistan which was created for this very purpose. Otherwise we will reward violence, ingratitude and intolerance.
3
If India cuts Kashmir loose, two things are guaranteed to happen: all the non-Muslims in Kashmir will be kicked out and/or oppressed heavily as is happening in Pakistan now, and Kashmir will either be overrun by extremists or eaten up by the Pakistan/China alliance. I have close friends, Kashmiri Pandits, who lost everything they owned in Kashmir, and barely made it to other Indian states with their lives. Yes, things are ugly now, mostly as a result of weak-kneed policies by the previous Indian government. But I expect Mr. Modi to be firmer and fairer in his approach, and do justice to all Indians by not giving in to the demands of extremists and terrorists.
2
Kashmiris needs to remember what they did to 1 million Hindus during 1990-2000. I am not supporting violence here. If indian forces leaves kashmir, it will become 10 times worst that Syria, It will be like giving free invitation to ISIS in to Indian subcontinent. Indian Government is doing great Job. I support INDIA.
1
To all the authors who seem to insist that India must hold a plebiscite and honour its promise to the Kashmiris, I have some news for you:
- The UN resolution that explicitly calls for a plebiscite states that both India and Pakistan completely demilitarise the region (pull back all troops), with India being allowed a small contingent of forces as it was Pakistan backed militants and troops that initiated the initial conflict
- A return of the original demographic population in the Kashmir valley as was the case in 1948. Clearly, the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits have been forced out of their homes with numerous research indicating the vicious of the violence – killings, forced conversions, property eviction and rape.
I strongly urge readers to research this topic prior to suggesting that India somehow hold a plebiscite when most of the conditions to hold one are yet to be satisfied.
- The UN resolution that explicitly calls for a plebiscite states that both India and Pakistan completely demilitarise the region (pull back all troops), with India being allowed a small contingent of forces as it was Pakistan backed militants and troops that initiated the initial conflict
- A return of the original demographic population in the Kashmir valley as was the case in 1948. Clearly, the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits have been forced out of their homes with numerous research indicating the vicious of the violence – killings, forced conversions, property eviction and rape.
I strongly urge readers to research this topic prior to suggesting that India somehow hold a plebiscite when most of the conditions to hold one are yet to be satisfied.
2
One thing is clear - that people from a single valley in the state of Jammu and Kashmir despise Indians. These people are Muslim, they have chased away Hindus living in their midst, and they despise Indians because Indian are majority Hindu. Such people demand "freedom" so that they can make their oppression of minorities among them an instrument of state policy - they want to create a Saudi Arabia within India. And the Indian state has been valiantly fighting these thugs who use AK-47's on bad days and stones on good days. The US in particular did not condemn these people from day 1 because Pakistan was a US ally. It is time they should. Because whatever "human rights violations" the Indian forces have committed will stop when Kashmiris stop their violence. Muslims in the rest of India are not subject to "human rights violations" from the Army.
1
I wonder a state in 21st century which 30 percent of citizens of which cannot afford earn 1 dollar a day, a state where cow is more valued than a human being with muslin faith, a state where rape is the order of the day, a state where a father carried the deadbody of his daughter some 10 miles as the hospital cannot afford an ambulance and he can not pay, a state where farmers suicide is norm, and numerous such malice, can that state afford to incur billions and billions of dollars on keeping a territory, the people of which have no respect for this country? The India doesn't mind, the world powers should.
8
Are you talking about Syria? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Iraq? Iran? Sudan? Because it sounds more like it..Muslims are the ones to rape, torture and kill millions of Hindus and Buddhists in Kashmir . .. Get facts right
7
Nonsense, you are the criminal occupiers in Kashmir and your PM Modi is a certifiable mass murderer and criminal in Gujarat who deserves like Milosevic to be dragged by the scruff of his neck to an international tribunal and better watch his back.
Dear Dash, None of what you mentioned has been going on for 70 years. Yes there has been different phases and there was a phase when Islamic extremist with the help of Pakistan's ISI tried to hijack the Kasmiri struggle. But that phase does not define the times before and after. It has been a singule stand of Kashmiris from the day English left India that they dont want to be part of India.
No doubt there are many so called Islamic movements across the globe, the Kashmir movement is neither Islamic, nor communal. The exudes of Hindus in early 90s was managed by Indian State just to give it a communal colour after a few Hindus Intellectuals like many Muslim Intellectuals were killed by the militants.
After decades of peaceful struggle, the sentiment in early 90s was exploited by the neighbouring Pakistan which handed over the gun to the disgruntled youth, who welcomed the guns, which was something that should not have happened but it happen eventually after decades of disappointment at the hands of Indian state and world powers.
The gun was eventually fading away, the sentiment can not. There is no space for peaceful protests, people are never ever allowed to assemble, so stones are the natural option with the youth on streets. The Indian "democratic" state treats the kashmir people as second grade citizens and there never ever care. Indian media has been be fooling the world and international media hardly has access to this part of the world.
After decades of peaceful struggle, the sentiment in early 90s was exploited by the neighbouring Pakistan which handed over the gun to the disgruntled youth, who welcomed the guns, which was something that should not have happened but it happen eventually after decades of disappointment at the hands of Indian state and world powers.
The gun was eventually fading away, the sentiment can not. There is no space for peaceful protests, people are never ever allowed to assemble, so stones are the natural option with the youth on streets. The Indian "democratic" state treats the kashmir people as second grade citizens and there never ever care. Indian media has been be fooling the world and international media hardly has access to this part of the world.
2
In Islam there is no peace or peaceful protests. Yes we all know that. Burhan Wani praised Osama Bin Laden and 9/11. But for NYT, anything anti-India and pro-Islam is approved journalism
6
NYT has some reputation and authenticity. Would you rather shoot the messenger or would you rather rely on Pakistan's ISI supported outlets or Indian Hindu extremist news channels .
I was in Kashmir when the current hostilities between India and Pakistan over the Indian portion of Kashmir began - the summer of 1990. Almost all of the population was Muslim and the ones I met were solidly pro-India. They knew that if the hostilities continued, the tourist industry, on which so many of their livelihoods were based would soon be deader than dead. And that is what happened. At first the fault was clearly Pakistans. It was they who were training the militants to disrupt the most prosperous part of India I had seen. But the Indian army, like all armies of occupation was heavy handed, taking what it wanted through intimidation. I'm only surprised that we have not heard of protest against the occupying army before this.
4
Most of the people in what is today called Pakistan were also pro India during the last days of the British Raj (Pro Indian parties were in power in 4 out of the 5 provinces).
Nehru, Gandhi, Patel and others managed started to discriminate and antagonize the Muslims. They have managed to do the same in Kashmir.
The Pakistani Army like many armies fueled the fire that was already burning in Kashmir, prior to the time period you are talking about. Reading the comments from Indians below one realizes why, after 70 years of oppression, the Kashmiri's have had enough.
No one can blame Pakistan military this time, they are busy fighting and expelling terrorists on their own soil, sending them to Syria and Iraq.
Nehru, Gandhi, Patel and others managed started to discriminate and antagonize the Muslims. They have managed to do the same in Kashmir.
The Pakistani Army like many armies fueled the fire that was already burning in Kashmir, prior to the time period you are talking about. Reading the comments from Indians below one realizes why, after 70 years of oppression, the Kashmiri's have had enough.
No one can blame Pakistan military this time, they are busy fighting and expelling terrorists on their own soil, sending them to Syria and Iraq.
The current, 1990's was one of the phases of Kasmiri struggle. Presently what you see has nothing to do with Pakistan. Having said that, there is a very strong sentiment in Pakistan to not leave the Kashmiri's alone and always have their back. Pakistan has gone to war for Kashmiris, that is not secret.
Yet there are some suggesting that liberal media is anti India.
Heavy handedness is only for Kashmiri. When Jaats burn, loot and rape other communities in India they are not treated with heavily handedly! When Patel community wants more power (already one of the most powerful) and burn the state of Gujarat, the heavy handedness disappear. it's not heavy handedness when Kashmiri have to live in barricades and check posts. It's a flat out occupation. India is secular in books and media. Pakistan is religious in letter and spirit. But they both are from the same gene pool. With one's religion spread in 56 countries, West has problem hence it is at the fork tip. The other confided in one major country is not challenging but cooperating as it is not directly affected.
My two cents.
Heavy handedness is only for Kashmiri. When Jaats burn, loot and rape other communities in India they are not treated with heavily handedly! When Patel community wants more power (already one of the most powerful) and burn the state of Gujarat, the heavy handedness disappear. it's not heavy handedness when Kashmiri have to live in barricades and check posts. It's a flat out occupation. India is secular in books and media. Pakistan is religious in letter and spirit. But they both are from the same gene pool. With one's religion spread in 56 countries, West has problem hence it is at the fork tip. The other confided in one major country is not challenging but cooperating as it is not directly affected.
My two cents.
1
Is a human wholly defined by his religion? I wonder, when I hear of children throwing stones. They have been taught to hate. Their parents are no better - the 8 year old's mother doesn't even appreciate the efforts of Indian doctors to save her son's sight. Only Islam matters, non-believers are like animals. How can Hindus and Buddhists live under Muslim masters? If India were to give in, expect another bloody partition and ISIS state. Does NYT want that?
I also noticed that a part of Kashmir has now been shown under China in your map. Not even an acknowledgement that Aksai Chin is also under the UN mandate.
India needs to treat the West like China. That approach obviously works.
I also noticed that a part of Kashmir has now been shown under China in your map. Not even an acknowledgement that Aksai Chin is also under the UN mandate.
India needs to treat the West like China. That approach obviously works.
8
Kashmir has been a thorn in the Indo-Pak relationship for the last 69 years! After hundreds of thousands of lives and billions of rupees, India is still struggling to keep it as part of its own. Is it really worth it? If Jawaharlal Nehru did not have a family connection to that piece of land, history would have been different. As all the other Muslim majority areas of northern India, Kashmir would have joined Pakistan during the partition of British India in 1947.
As an American of Indian origin, I strongly feel it is high time India rethink the whole issue and come to a sensible resolution. Kashmir has always been a drag on India's economy. Let go India, let go! The Nehrus are long gone (well, almost) and you don't have sentimental connections to Kashmir anymore.
As an American of Indian origin, I strongly feel it is high time India rethink the whole issue and come to a sensible resolution. Kashmir has always been a drag on India's economy. Let go India, let go! The Nehrus are long gone (well, almost) and you don't have sentimental connections to Kashmir anymore.
2
Dear Jay,
Appreciate your opinion. There are so many on Pakistan side who also feel the same about the Areas held by Pakistan. Let people have their space and live peacefully and focus on progress.
Appreciate your opinion. There are so many on Pakistan side who also feel the same about the Areas held by Pakistan. Let people have their space and live peacefully and focus on progress.
Pellet guns? Seems what is commonly known as shotguns firing birdshot. Why does the author use "pellet" gun which we know as single shot and only experts could hit eyes in "combat" situations.
A stone throwing mob could hardly be called a peaceful demonstration.
Why were children and women used as a protective shield by the stone throwing agitators?
There is nothing to prevent these "not so peaceful" protesters from running for public office and democratically influence the policies of their government. No, when they fail politically, they resort to violence, disturb the peace in the community, and then accuse the government of using its lawful responsibility to maintain peace. The latter is the consequence of the former.
The world should not be fooled by the end result. Something caused it.
Why were children and women used as a protective shield by the stone throwing agitators?
There is nothing to prevent these "not so peaceful" protesters from running for public office and democratically influence the policies of their government. No, when they fail politically, they resort to violence, disturb the peace in the community, and then accuse the government of using its lawful responsibility to maintain peace. The latter is the consequence of the former.
The world should not be fooled by the end result. Something caused it.
5
The greatest tragedy for the indigenous Kashmiri autonomy movement was the involvement of Pakistan. In the the 1990’s, the Kashmiri separatist cause transformed from an ethnic movement with legitimate political grievances, to an Islamist militancy due to Pakistan and the Taliban (who moved to Kashmir after the USSR was driven out of Afghanistan)
As the Hindu minority of the Kashmir valley was violently excised , the chances that the larger Indian society would ever be sympathetic to separatism dwindled. Kashmir seemed to be turning into another Pakistan.
My neighbor’s father, a Kashmiri muslim, was killed by separatist militants for refusing to let them use his home. Another Kashmiri friend was kidnapped and held by militants for 3 days in the 1990’s on suspicion of being an informer to the police. The separatist leader, Geelani, praised Osama bin Laden as a martyr. The slain separatist mentioned in this article, Burhan Wani, talked about establishing an Islamic caliphate in his last video message. The more the separatists invoke religion, the more frightening they are to the rest of the Indian population.
The only way forward is through confidence building measures from New Delhi: 1) guarantees of political autonomy, 2) withdrawal of armed troops to be replaced by local police with protection of businesses that wish to stay open during separatist strikes 3) a return to the Kashmir's religiously syncretic roots with resettlement of religious minorities in the Valley.
As the Hindu minority of the Kashmir valley was violently excised , the chances that the larger Indian society would ever be sympathetic to separatism dwindled. Kashmir seemed to be turning into another Pakistan.
My neighbor’s father, a Kashmiri muslim, was killed by separatist militants for refusing to let them use his home. Another Kashmiri friend was kidnapped and held by militants for 3 days in the 1990’s on suspicion of being an informer to the police. The separatist leader, Geelani, praised Osama bin Laden as a martyr. The slain separatist mentioned in this article, Burhan Wani, talked about establishing an Islamic caliphate in his last video message. The more the separatists invoke religion, the more frightening they are to the rest of the Indian population.
The only way forward is through confidence building measures from New Delhi: 1) guarantees of political autonomy, 2) withdrawal of armed troops to be replaced by local police with protection of businesses that wish to stay open during separatist strikes 3) a return to the Kashmir's religiously syncretic roots with resettlement of religious minorities in the Valley.
5
That is just horrible. Shame on the parents for exposing their children to such an injury and double shame on the Indian government and its cowardly military for using such inhuman methods. If your going to disperse a crowd tear gas works just fine or the employment of rubber bullets is available. Why subject the citizens of your own country,especially children, to a lifetime of blindness where the odds are they will need care for the rest of their life. Unbelievable.
Cowardly Indian military?!! Have ever read their stories.
2
Dear Patrick, This happens because Kashmiris are considered traitors in India. They have no representation in the Military. So it is easy to dehumanize the adversary for the military. You can see it here all over the place. The price for protest is to have your eyes pierced by pellets and live blind for the rest of your life.
I think people with functioning eyes saw how the Saudi funded "peaceful" protesters were protesting so peacefully. If you dont know the history of Kashmir there is one thing you should know and that is the exodus of the Kashmiri Hindus by the same peaceful people. For any minority to live in Kashmir the presence of force is required since then. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Kashmiri_Hindus).
The CM of Kashmir said a few days back and I quote "People who are hurt in the protests were not out there buying groceries, they were out there burning public property and trying to snatch weapons from forces showing restrain."
She also added " Kids are being used as a shield by these guys, kids who should be with thier family in such times.
Those army guys are also human and have the same human rights. I was really surprised when in a documentary the so called peaceful protester proudly claimed that every time he throws a stone he wishes to end a life with that.
On the brighter side Home minister Rajnath Singh has promised an alternative to pallet guns in his last visit to Kashmir. The CM is seeing the situation with a clear lens things will be better soon.
The CM of Kashmir said a few days back and I quote "People who are hurt in the protests were not out there buying groceries, they were out there burning public property and trying to snatch weapons from forces showing restrain."
She also added " Kids are being used as a shield by these guys, kids who should be with thier family in such times.
Those army guys are also human and have the same human rights. I was really surprised when in a documentary the so called peaceful protester proudly claimed that every time he throws a stone he wishes to end a life with that.
On the brighter side Home minister Rajnath Singh has promised an alternative to pallet guns in his last visit to Kashmir. The CM is seeing the situation with a clear lens things will be better soon.
9
Wikipedia is not the most reliable source for info. Anyone can write anything there.
Exodus of Hindus from Kashmir is not the only history one should know. That happened during one of the many uprisings. One video or one story cannot change the facts of seventy years. There are authentic figures of loss of life close to a hundred thousand.
Liberal newspaper in country with 11208 homicides in 2015 due to gun related violence lectures India on using non-lethal methods to quell violent Islamist protests in Kashmir.
8
As somebody who was raised a Sikh, I used to sympathize with the "Kashmiri Muslim" movement. But not anymore, not for a long time. They kicked out all Hindus, and even when the Hindus tried to come back, look at how their old neighbors treated them. Just google, read the History of this land that has been culturally Indian for millenniums, and was majority Hindu, Buddhist until recently. The crowds protests not as Kashmiris, but as Muslim. See the difference? Most of the valley's Muslims demand Sharia, and the Islam in Kashmir is starting to resemble more that of Saudi Arabia. Isn't it a shame that the Kids are out there throwing stones, and not at school studying?
11
Its been 70 years since the partition which was on the basis of religion. Just because the ruler of Muslim majority Kashmir, a Hindu raja acceded to India (as was natural), it does not follow that India can, with impunity take over Kashmir. If it can do that then, it should have agreed to cede Junagadh, a Hindu majority region under a Muslim nawab to Pakistan in the 1950s.
Right now, the only viable solution to this problem is for India to agree to a referendum for the people of Kashmir to either opt for (1)union with India, or (2) union with Pakistan or (3) Independence. If the option is (2) or (3), then the region of Jammu which is Hindu majority should be united with India. Apart from this solution, there can be no peace in Kashmir.
Right now, the only viable solution to this problem is for India to agree to a referendum for the people of Kashmir to either opt for (1)union with India, or (2) union with Pakistan or (3) Independence. If the option is (2) or (3), then the region of Jammu which is Hindu majority should be united with India. Apart from this solution, there can be no peace in Kashmir.
2
What happens to the Muslims in the rest of India?
3
UN resolution of 47 demands Pakistan vacate Pak Occupied Kashmir, so that entire Kashmir can be opened for referendum, India has agreed to this, Pakistan hasn't.
4
That actually is a very valid point. Pakistan has responsibility in this matter as well and could have been the original culprit in derailing a referendum that would have settled the matter for ever.
There is sufficient support in Pakistan for the independence of Kashmir. But it is the insistence on both sides to 'own the whole thing' that has led to this longest lasting tragedy.
There is sufficient support in Pakistan for the independence of Kashmir. But it is the insistence on both sides to 'own the whole thing' that has led to this longest lasting tragedy.
The sad state of affairs is that, many of the readers do not have an idea about the ground reality. This is reflected in the labeling of Wani as a 'Militant' by this author. Since the author seems to be ill-educated about definitions of Militant and Terrorist, let me clarify. A militant is a person who attacks armed authorities (Armed forces, Police etc.), whereas, a terrorist choses to attack soft targets, such as schools, hospitals, public squares to further his/her agenda. Burhan Wani by this definition is a terrorist, period. He does not deserve the trial at a court, and he deserved to be killed like a rotten pig he is. If you observe the photographs of Wani carefully, you'll observe that he handles his rifle like a trained soldier.
Now, several questions arise: Where did he get this type of training? Where did he get the 7.62mm and ammo if he's so innocent as everyone is believes him to be? What are 8 year-old kids doing in protests with acid bombs and Molotov cocktails, when they are supposed to be in schools holding books and pencils? Pakistan has been doing the dirty work of brainwashing the local youth into Islamic radicalization. They are trying to overthrow the peaceful, Sufi Islamic beliefs of Kashmir and importing with violent Wahabian Islam, akin to ones propagated by Al Qaeda and ISIS. When they throw stones weighing 3kg at 100km/h on your forehead, do you talk about human rights at that situation? The solution to Kashmir problem always resides at Rawalpindi.
Now, several questions arise: Where did he get this type of training? Where did he get the 7.62mm and ammo if he's so innocent as everyone is believes him to be? What are 8 year-old kids doing in protests with acid bombs and Molotov cocktails, when they are supposed to be in schools holding books and pencils? Pakistan has been doing the dirty work of brainwashing the local youth into Islamic radicalization. They are trying to overthrow the peaceful, Sufi Islamic beliefs of Kashmir and importing with violent Wahabian Islam, akin to ones propagated by Al Qaeda and ISIS. When they throw stones weighing 3kg at 100km/h on your forehead, do you talk about human rights at that situation? The solution to Kashmir problem always resides at Rawalpindi.
17
I Appreciate your views on Jammu & Kashmir. With love from Jammu and Kashmir. God bless you
3
Every occupier wants the occupied to study books rather than protest. I wonder why?
It seems the report is written for malicious purpose and that author has no knowledge of the Kashmir situation or its history or its people. The author describes a scenery of Kashmir with out having any reasonable solution to the quandary. Better not to have published this report.
6
It is not okay to ignore a human tragedy unfold in front of you and keep quite. This is the job of journalists and we expect it.
The cool hard fact is that Kashmir will never get the freedom it desires for many important reasons. Starting with the most simple reason, location, it is straddled between India, Pakistan and China and comes under intersecting spheres of influence, it is no wonder that all three countries have carved parts of Kashmir into their own territory. Secondly, India has a legal claim of ownership to it's territory, the last King of Kashmir Maharaja Hari Singh signed an Instrument of Accession to the Dominion of India after India and Pakistan were partitioned. Thirdly, the Hindu majority Jammu and the Buddhist majority Leh would never consider parting with India. Finally, India has a good track record of smothering insurgencies along with the manpower and will, just look at Punjab or the 90s Pakistan sponsored uprising in Kashmir. This latest installment will also be put down and it is up to the Kashmiri people to choose their path forward, either shed violence make some effort for political autonomy within the secular Indian state or take up the gun for another failed effort for "azadi". Just like ethnic Tamils in Sri Lanka or ehtnic Kurds in Turkey, perhaps Kashmiris should realize that violent uprisings for a new homeland within an established nation usually ends up in failure but there is more space for an agreeable arrangement in the political sphere.
6
What do you think will happen the day after the Kashmiri Muslims get their ``azadi'' (``freedom'')? You do not have to guess or look far. Just look at Pakistan. Practically all Hindus and Sikhs have been ethnically cleansed. The few remaining Christians are being traumatized often, the blasphemy law is being directed against poor defenseless Christians again and again. The minister who protested against this was killed by his body guard. A huge number of people turned out on the streets expressing symathy for the murderer body guard when he was hung.
Sometimes, to prevent great brutality, controlled brutality is the only option. Plebiscite in Kashmir was an option in 1947, when It was thought that Pakistan would be a normal country. It is no longer an option, after they threw out all their minority population.
Sometimes, to prevent great brutality, controlled brutality is the only option. Plebiscite in Kashmir was an option in 1947, when It was thought that Pakistan would be a normal country. It is no longer an option, after they threw out all their minority population.
12
Since 1947, Kashmiris are struggling against the illegal & brutal occupation of Kashmir by Indian occupying forces. India deployed more than 800,000 military, CPRF and Police to forcefully crushed the liberation of the occupied territory of Kashmir since the partition of India and Pakistan. more than 150,000 people were killed, more than 12000 girls and women were raped and killed and more than 25000 young Kashmiri were either missing or found in the mass graves around the Kashmir Valley. With all these severe Human Rights Violations, India refused to let HRC to visit & see the ordinary people are suffering because of the daily curfew, mass arrest, shooting innocent kids and bystanders, hurting them bodily and emotionally, seizing properties in the name of talking against the Indian occupation and killing the people with impunity without any remorse and India still calling herself as the biggest democratic country in the world. People are struggling for the plebiscite since 1947 according to the UN Security Council resolution which clearly states that India is mandated to have an independent Plebiscite in the occupied region of Kashmir under UN observer. India refused this plebiscite and illegally occupying the entire area and calling this disputed land as their integral part of India. if this is not occupation than what it is. People are being killed in the name of night searches, girls were kidnapped and raped by Indian Army and the world is quiet and watching.
2
The world (USA) is busy selling arms to India. They
can't speak out due to "customer care" consideration.
can't speak out due to "customer care" consideration.
1
If the protesters want azaadi (freedom) and love Pakistan so much, they are more than welcome to leave Kashmir and migrate to Pakistan. Only then will they realize that India is a much more prosperous country than Pakistan, and the opportunities that they can avail of if India do not exist in Pakistan.
The Indian security forces are well within their rights to use pellet guns in these situations. These protesters aren't demanding a change in treatment or a change in the law; they are advocating for secession. Kashmir is part of India, and the Indian government has every right to defend its territory. India should ditch the pellet guns ... and start using live ammunition!
The Indian security forces are well within their rights to use pellet guns in these situations. These protesters aren't demanding a change in treatment or a change in the law; they are advocating for secession. Kashmir is part of India, and the Indian government has every right to defend its territory. India should ditch the pellet guns ... and start using live ammunition!
13
The anti-India NYT does not seem to recognize that ever since the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989, Pakistan’s mujahidin, with the support of Pakistan’s ISI, shifted its violent activities towards Indian Kashmir. We never hear of Indian-instigated violence in Pakistani Kashmir, which leads to the false perception that Pakistan’s claims to Indian Kashmir are legitimate.
Pakistan, which is already plagued by violence perpetrated by extremist religious groups on its western borders with Afghanistan, hardly needs more such violence on its eastern border with India. Besides the world has had it with what is unfortunately, but widely referred to as “radical Islamic terrorism.” Also, one would hope that India is not exploiting this worldwide anti-Islamic sentiment with an excessive use of force on ordinary citizens in its part of Kashmir.
So after almost seven decades, it is high time for both sides to accept that there is no solution to this problem, as it is one that is divided along religious lines. The only logical compromise is for both sides to accept the “line of control” as the permanent border between the two countries. More importantly, both sides have controlled and ruled their part of “Kashmir” since 1948 – a geopolitical reality that is impossible to change unless one side takes the other’s territory by force.
Pakistan, which is already plagued by violence perpetrated by extremist religious groups on its western borders with Afghanistan, hardly needs more such violence on its eastern border with India. Besides the world has had it with what is unfortunately, but widely referred to as “radical Islamic terrorism.” Also, one would hope that India is not exploiting this worldwide anti-Islamic sentiment with an excessive use of force on ordinary citizens in its part of Kashmir.
So after almost seven decades, it is high time for both sides to accept that there is no solution to this problem, as it is one that is divided along religious lines. The only logical compromise is for both sides to accept the “line of control” as the permanent border between the two countries. More importantly, both sides have controlled and ruled their part of “Kashmir” since 1948 – a geopolitical reality that is impossible to change unless one side takes the other’s territory by force.
6
The main party to dispute are Kashmiris. Pakistan
has intruded itself into the chaos because of British
chicanery. They left the bone for the two countries
to fight over. Real issue is the rule of Kashmir by
Kashmiris.
has intruded itself into the chaos because of British
chicanery. They left the bone for the two countries
to fight over. Real issue is the rule of Kashmir by
Kashmiris.
Thank you, NYT for this article.
Shame on India for their human rights.
Largest democracy?
Long live Kashmir.
Shame on India for their human rights.
Largest democracy?
Long live Kashmir.
5
Yes Long Live Jammu and Kashmir (the official name of the Indian state) in Indian Union as part of democracy. Down with Pakistan's nefarious means to snatch the state away and make it part of its own. It has succeeded in 70 years with 3 wars and it never be for thousands of years to come. More than 80% of citizens of Jammu and Kashmir are peaceful and want to remain in the Indian Union.
3
What no one realizes is why is the force using pellet guns. You will be surprised to know that the mob of women and children (8 year olds) are paid upto 100 INR per day for pelting stones. The money coming from ISI. Not only that, the real terrorists hide behind the cover of women/children and pelt grenades. Yes GRENADES at the security forces.
I request all the concerned readers here to please suggest a better way for Indian forces to treat this matter. Thanks
I request all the concerned readers here to please suggest a better way for Indian forces to treat this matter. Thanks
9
We, in the US, regard religion as irrelevant in our civic discourse. Under the umbrella of secularism, all religions thrive, or so we proclaim to the world.
In Pakistan, which is a self-declared Islamic State, non-muslims have been systematically removed or killed by ethnic cleansing...which still goes on. One would think that the highly cleansed Pakistani society, after getting rid of the impure non-muslims, would be enjoying peace, prosperity, piety, righteousness, and the rule of law. Nope. Nope.
Kashmir contains muslims and non-muslims. When the extremists muslims, inspired and goaded by Pakistani co-religionists, demand "azadi" (independence) from secular India, they are covertly asking for an ethnically cleansed muslim Kashmir...just like Pakistan. Should the civilized world sit by idly, pontificate about the virtues of independence, and concede this sort of demand? I don't think so.
In Pakistan, which is a self-declared Islamic State, non-muslims have been systematically removed or killed by ethnic cleansing...which still goes on. One would think that the highly cleansed Pakistani society, after getting rid of the impure non-muslims, would be enjoying peace, prosperity, piety, righteousness, and the rule of law. Nope. Nope.
Kashmir contains muslims and non-muslims. When the extremists muslims, inspired and goaded by Pakistani co-religionists, demand "azadi" (independence) from secular India, they are covertly asking for an ethnically cleansed muslim Kashmir...just like Pakistan. Should the civilized world sit by idly, pontificate about the virtues of independence, and concede this sort of demand? I don't think so.
7
I wish, Kashmir was one homogenous Muslim society. But it is not. There is the Kashmir valley (where this protest comes from), which is 98% Muslim, the Jammu region that is predominantly Hindu, Ladakh that is Buddhist, Aksai Chin that China controls, Gilgit the Kashmir region that Pakistan "administers" and was made a new state, and of course a tiny strip called "Ajaad or free Kashmir" controlled by Pakistan that has produced more international terrorists per capita than any other place on earth.
Now put the pellet gun in this context and think about the options?
Should India give "freedom" to Kashmir? Which Kashmir first you must ask. The valley's extremists have always wanted Sharia. They drove out the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits by mass violence and rapes. It's in the news and the web. So I won't say much. Google for yourself.
But what does "freedom" mean for the region? That Muslims can't stay in a secular country. So, what happens to 10 million Bangladeshi Muslims who migrated to India and never left. What about Indian muslims? What about Chinese Xinxiang and other non-muslim regions with muslim immigrants.
Yes, Pellet guns and use of army on civilians is deplorable. This is a failure of my country and our politicians. It's brutal, but as some stupid politician said, "they were not out to get Milk". When they threw rocks on soldier's (and killed some), they already lost their mind. Losing an eye, however tragic, should not be any more surprising...
Now put the pellet gun in this context and think about the options?
Should India give "freedom" to Kashmir? Which Kashmir first you must ask. The valley's extremists have always wanted Sharia. They drove out the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits by mass violence and rapes. It's in the news and the web. So I won't say much. Google for yourself.
But what does "freedom" mean for the region? That Muslims can't stay in a secular country. So, what happens to 10 million Bangladeshi Muslims who migrated to India and never left. What about Indian muslims? What about Chinese Xinxiang and other non-muslim regions with muslim immigrants.
Yes, Pellet guns and use of army on civilians is deplorable. This is a failure of my country and our politicians. It's brutal, but as some stupid politician said, "they were not out to get Milk". When they threw rocks on soldier's (and killed some), they already lost their mind. Losing an eye, however tragic, should not be any more surprising...
35
Another person getting on the terrorist band wagon, making up their own facts to justify their abuses of their governments.
Azad Kashmir has produced more terrorists than any other country. Really.
Number of Kashmiri's in 911 attack = zero
Number of Kashmiri members of ISIS, Al=Shabab, Boko Haram = zero
Number of Kashmiri's involved in Paris attacks = zero
I could go on.
As for Sharia law, Kashmiri's are close ethnically to Northern Pakistani's. In every free election in Pakistan, the political parties propagating Sharia law has lost badly.
Azad Kashmir has produced more terrorists than any other country. Really.
Number of Kashmiri's in 911 attack = zero
Number of Kashmiri members of ISIS, Al=Shabab, Boko Haram = zero
Number of Kashmiri's involved in Paris attacks = zero
I could go on.
As for Sharia law, Kashmiri's are close ethnically to Northern Pakistani's. In every free election in Pakistan, the political parties propagating Sharia law has lost badly.
3
It is hair splitting. Hold referendum like the civilized
countries- Canada in Quebec, Britain in Scotland
and Czechoslovakia did.If hindus, Buddhists want to
be part of India, let them vote. In a democracy the
will of the people should rein supreme. Right to
self determination is enshrined in Un charter. Honor
that right and settle the issue once for all.
countries- Canada in Quebec, Britain in Scotland
and Czechoslovakia did.If hindus, Buddhists want to
be part of India, let them vote. In a democracy the
will of the people should rein supreme. Right to
self determination is enshrined in Un charter. Honor
that right and settle the issue once for all.
Terrorist's by definition mean targeting innocent civilians to create fear and unrest. Look at LeT, JuD , IM and SIMI.
The law and order by imposing marshal law orby curfew or by pellets guns isnot for t he govt but for the commons who want to live in peace.mufti her self. Who was a victim of terrorism has said in a press conf. That violant revolt happy miscreants r only 5% and out of them the pellet guns victims r only misguided youth being used as a shield by pakistani engineered terror machine duly financed by isi.it is the anti modi-mufti media on the pay roll of china-pakistan which is creating a hype here in uno-newyork and there in india.modi lacks in good media management skill in a hindu majorty nation what to talk of kasmir which is muslim majorty.but this is not good for the democracies of india and usa who r soft on muslims.state has to preserve its writ other wise the anarchy designed by china pak taliban lobby will burst in a more killing. Way for commons.
One sees advertised these incredibly bright LED flashlights that can temporarily blind an assailant but does no permanent harm. I see no reason why riot control personnel can't use these first.
Are they using shotguns or pellet guns. They call them pellet guns. We call them shotguns firing birdshot. They are deadly weapons nonetheless. Why do you try to downplay the seriousness by calling them pellet guns?
1
Modi has his biggest political challenge in Kashmir - mind you political not electoral challenge. Can he show the maturity and leadership to find a political solution to Kashmir? With a tainted past, the chances of him doing that do not appear very bright.
2
This is awful, but what would YOU choose between dying and losing one eye?
The protests are about getting freedom from the brutal occupation Kashmir has been in. The Indian army and its state machinery is responsible for the state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir. As in any part of the world , we deserve to be free. If referendum can be held in Scotland and other parts of civilized world , why not in Kashmir? The lie by Indians that there has been genocide of kashmiri Pandits is a farce. Just 350 Pandits died compared to 1 lac kashmiri people who were killed by indian forces , thousands disappeared, women raped. Kashmir after independence will still be multi religious pluralistic society and to support this fact we have kashmiri Sikh non muslims and of course many Kashmiri Pandits who are hand in glove with muslim brethren for the sake of securing freedom from the illegal Indian Occupation.
And to say that India is a secular country is in itself a foolish statement especially since the time it has been by RSS right wing Hindu organizations to which Mr Modi belongs.
And to say that India is a secular country is in itself a foolish statement especially since the time it has been by RSS right wing Hindu organizations to which Mr Modi belongs.
10
Definitely, the way Pakistan and Bangladesh has remained multi religious pluralistic society after freedom.
What a scientific logic and rationale to justify the alienation of a part of India? If Kashmris have a problem remaining under the sovereign India, they are free to leave the country..Many options are available for them, including joining ISIS and become a part of global Jihadis.
What a scientific logic and rationale to justify the alienation of a part of India? If Kashmris have a problem remaining under the sovereign India, they are free to leave the country..Many options are available for them, including joining ISIS and become a part of global Jihadis.
7
I hope the freedom that you are talking about is not the one that you get in Saudi Arabia?
3
The "Indian state sponsored terrorism" has echoes of the American civil war. Don't expect India to allow cession of a state by intolerant jihadists.
2
The chief minister of Jammu & Kashmir recently said the the stone throwers who were injured weren't out buy milk but to cause harm. I agree with her. Use of nonlethal weapons to control unruly mobs should be commended. Its far better than the unabated killings of African Americans by the police in the US. Or the Israeli rule of shoot first and ask later. Or the slaughter of innocent villagers by the Pakistani army in Baluchistan.
In Kashmir, at least you know that that its only when you break the law, that you get hurt. Its easy to rebel, especially if you are financially supported from the outside. Let's remember, as in any situation, the outsider has little to lose...
In Kashmir, at least you know that that its only when you break the law, that you get hurt. Its easy to rebel, especially if you are financially supported from the outside. Let's remember, as in any situation, the outsider has little to lose...
4
It seems that every conflict, big or small inthe middle east or on the indian subcontinent area can always traced back to religion.
Its time for the US to step back and refuse to support , IN ANY WAY, any participant in these messes.
We do should not take any part in religious wars anywhere on any side. Use our resources to take care of our millions in poverty, our falling apart infrastructure, our own country.
Its time for the US to step back and refuse to support , IN ANY WAY, any participant in these messes.
We do should not take any part in religious wars anywhere on any side. Use our resources to take care of our millions in poverty, our falling apart infrastructure, our own country.
1
If only you could have given that advice to the american leadership in the 80's or 90's.
I was just reading about Muslim insurgencies and terror attacks in Malaysia, Thailand (and a failed terror attack against Christians in Indonesia yesterday). Is there any place in the world that Muslims are happy and tolerant of others? How do Muslims themselves treat minorities and non-Muslims in Muslim majority nations? Is it true that Muslims in Kashmir committed ethnic genocide against native Hindus?
11
I wish there were a few people from Kashmir who could directly answer the question. You know, they are not allowed internet access. There are 800, 000 Indian army troops to keep the occupation. Likelyhood of 'ethnic genocide', your guess as good as mine.
“This time he is very young,” she says. “But he will grow. He will understand what happened to him. And he will go out to the street and throw stones.”
This from his mother who goes to protests herself. Does this sound like a parent who is devastated, or a radicalized jihadi who almost looks at the injury like a mark of honor? The article mentioned that the protests were encouraged by an internet figure...echoes of the Middle East...This will never be solved peacefully, pellet guns or not.
This from his mother who goes to protests herself. Does this sound like a parent who is devastated, or a radicalized jihadi who almost looks at the injury like a mark of honor? The article mentioned that the protests were encouraged by an internet figure...echoes of the Middle East...This will never be solved peacefully, pellet guns or not.
1
Indian State cant be allowed to hide behind the mask of democracy & use brute force against ethnic kashmiris to silence & subjugate them.
Mature and forward looking nations like UK give their people refrendrum, Scottish / EU Refrandrum being recent examples , and not commit crimes against humanity as we see in kashmir.
Mature and forward looking nations like UK give their people refrendrum, Scottish / EU Refrandrum being recent examples , and not commit crimes against humanity as we see in kashmir.
2
I agree with you. UN has infact asked India and Pakistan to allow referendum in Kashmir. However, the reason this has not been done till now is because for a referendum, people need to be free but Pakistan is not ready to vacate Gilgit-Baltistan. Sooner the world will know the doings of Pakistan in Gilgit and Balochistan.
4
There is nothing hidden about the doings of Pakistan. How does that justify Indian suppression and denial of freedom to Kashmiris.
There are now 600+ injured in one of the eye or both eyes by pellets in Kashmir. Pellet guns are shot down waist but here these indian thugs shot in the eye purposely. Indian animal is showing new way of brutality. If this was any muslim country US govt. would've sent some troops by now but its their darling in Asia after israel behaving like Israel so they are silent. US should address this sick way to crush freedom movement of Kashmiris.
2
Pellet guns are shot near waist and were indeed fire at waist height by Indian forces. However, Pakistani terrorists forced Kashmiri children to participate in the stone-pelting. 8-10year olds generally are at waist height and that is why they get injured mostly.
3
New York Times always plays dirty politics...and the Kashmir region is one of them. While all police, in all developing countries, should be using no force, less force and/or less lethal force when dealing with the public, including here in the US where police related injuries and deaths on civilians is one of the highest among developed and developing nations, why single out Kashmir...that has suffered from cross border violence for nearly 70 years?
Kashmir has suffered from Pakistani insurgency and Islamic terrorism for 70 years, it is unique in its historical, geographical and territorial problems. So, why single out Kashmir for police violence...which is much less than in Pakistan, and central Asian regions?
Kashmir is a region in South Asia that has been affected or damaged by Pakistani government, Pakistani military and Islamic religious extremists for nearly 70 years, without doing diddly squat for "development, progress, infrastructure building, democracy, peace and/or prosperity for Kashmir or for Pakistan". Why blame this all on the Indian security or border patrol? If it is not the NYT, that could not solve diddly squat in the Middle East (not even report intelligently or fairly from that region), they now want to comment on police shooting in Kashmir? Really? Who the heck has bought NYT? Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Israel or ISIS? Somebody should be investigating NYT?
Kashmir has suffered from Pakistani insurgency and Islamic terrorism for 70 years, it is unique in its historical, geographical and territorial problems. So, why single out Kashmir for police violence...which is much less than in Pakistan, and central Asian regions?
Kashmir is a region in South Asia that has been affected or damaged by Pakistani government, Pakistani military and Islamic religious extremists for nearly 70 years, without doing diddly squat for "development, progress, infrastructure building, democracy, peace and/or prosperity for Kashmir or for Pakistan". Why blame this all on the Indian security or border patrol? If it is not the NYT, that could not solve diddly squat in the Middle East (not even report intelligently or fairly from that region), they now want to comment on police shooting in Kashmir? Really? Who the heck has bought NYT? Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Israel or ISIS? Somebody should be investigating NYT?
10
Kashmir is an international dispute recognized by UNO. The critics here claiming that these stone pelters are instigated by Pakistan and ISI using children as shield, and are very less in number, influenced by radical Islam, etc.. etc... Come on guys be human first! We have a history of 69 years of brutal Indian rule. 80,000 civilians killed, thousands of mass graves, thousands half widows, orphans, tortured victims, disabled persons, hundreds of blinded, hundreds raped. We are worlds most militarized zone. India is continuously denying UNHRC access to Kashmir to investigate human rights violation. Kashmiris are demanding plebiscite which was promised by first Indian Prime minister Jawahar Lal Nehru.
Why are all the protests happening in the valley? Why not in the Hindu Jammu, or Buddhist Laddhakh region. After all, Jammu and Kashmir comprises of all 3.
Yes, India announced plebiscite. But there were 3 conditions. Demilitarizing the region was one of them. A lot of water has flown the Jhelum rivers since 1947. Nehru would never have promised plebiscite after Kashmiri Pandits were butchers and raped by Jehadis, and of course after the Sharia steroids that the extremists in valley want everyone to partake into.
Yes, India announced plebiscite. But there were 3 conditions. Demilitarizing the region was one of them. A lot of water has flown the Jhelum rivers since 1947. Nehru would never have promised plebiscite after Kashmiri Pandits were butchers and raped by Jehadis, and of course after the Sharia steroids that the extremists in valley want everyone to partake into.
7
wow. 'çrowd control'what a benign term to be used. As if people in kashmir assemble before security officers to raise slogas and go away. These are gangs of people whose only objective is to kill those officers. The rocks that they throw and injured security forces are testament. I would've expected nytimes to at least use the term 'rioting'not 'çrowd control'. If the same thing happens anywhere in the US, actual fire arms will be discharged, not pellet guns.
5
When children are protesting with stones, it's clear their parents are to blame.
3
Just a matter of time before muslims sections of France and England demand a separate nation for the muslim majority. For decades Western countries chalked up Islamic terrorism as 3rd world countries unable to be progressive in dealing with their minorities and even gave the agitators a platform. This is no longer the case, muslims separatist will have no sympathy anywhere, everyone knows the truth.
4
Note that Dr. S. Natarajan, the surgeon mentioned in the article, is not a Kashmiri by descent. His name indicates that he is probably from South India.
So not all Indian actions are bad. And perhaps the Indian army was severely provoked by the riots - I do not trust the NYT to report fairly.
It is unrealistic for Kashmir to be an independent country and Pakistan is too dysfunctional to be their home. Ergo, India has to be the home for the Kashmiris until the world returns to sanity.
And note that there are more Muslims in India than there are in Pakistan. At least two presidents of India have been Muslim.
So the situation is complex. It would be easier for Texas to be an independent country than for Kashmir.
So not all Indian actions are bad. And perhaps the Indian army was severely provoked by the riots - I do not trust the NYT to report fairly.
It is unrealistic for Kashmir to be an independent country and Pakistan is too dysfunctional to be their home. Ergo, India has to be the home for the Kashmiris until the world returns to sanity.
And note that there are more Muslims in India than there are in Pakistan. At least two presidents of India have been Muslim.
So the situation is complex. It would be easier for Texas to be an independent country than for Kashmir.
4
I think it is more correct to describe the police weapons as shotguns loaded with
birdshot, or small lead balls. One shot can contain dozens that spread out into a large pattern making it impossible to avoid hitting someone in the eyes. These are firearms. Pellet guns or air rifles are much less powerful.
birdshot, or small lead balls. One shot can contain dozens that spread out into a large pattern making it impossible to avoid hitting someone in the eyes. These are firearms. Pellet guns or air rifles are much less powerful.
Recent events in Kashmir are an outcome of cultural misunderstanding between India and Pakistan. A while ago, India's Modi made an unscheduled stop in Pakistan, visited Pakistan's Sharif's home, and even touched the feet of Sharif's mother. In the Indian culture, that is the highest mark of respect, touching the feet of another person's mother, signifying that "your mother is my mother, and we are brothers." But in the Arab culture that Pakistan has adopted, touching another person's feet is a mark of servility and submission. Therefore this incident was interpreted differently in Pakistan and immediately afterward, Pakistan has been poking India in Kashmir and Punjab with more terrorism.
Pakistani Arabs and Indians are different cultures and it's better if they understand that in their actions.
Pakistani Arabs and Indians are different cultures and it's better if they understand that in their actions.
1
I used to think that Indian Kashmir, in spite of its Muslim majority, should remain in India.
And if Kashmir leaves India to become independent, or worse, join Pakistan, Kashimiris will be very sorry under their new leaders.
However, since Modi's violent radical extremist Hindu party has come to power I can definitely understand why Kashmiris no longer feel remaining in India is an option.
And if Kashmir leaves India to become independent, or worse, join Pakistan, Kashimiris will be very sorry under their new leaders.
However, since Modi's violent radical extremist Hindu party has come to power I can definitely understand why Kashmiris no longer feel remaining in India is an option.
If one throws stones at armed troops, there is the possibility that they will not like it and eventually shoot back. Student protesters in the US learned that at Kent State, and the Kashmiri should look to that and decide if it is a good idea.
1
In the US, thoughtless use of guns by white cops is causing an epidemic of black deaths. Handle that first before pontificating to us.
2
When one engages in hyperbole such as "epidemic of black deaths" they are themselves engaging in pontificating.
1
The urge to protest violently seems writ in the genes of Islam-inspired protesters who wish to bring others' worlds to a standstill as they fight their last battles, religion inspired, all over the world, including in the many, many Islamic republics. Everyone of these protests in Kashmir -- inspired by the jihadists and military skunk works across the border in Pakistan (of whom we find no mention in this report) -- is an attempt to destabilize India, and to break any chances of peaceful co-existence among Hindus and Muslims in the region. That these jihadists in "protesters' clothing" get the sympathetic publicity from partisan newspapers and media from the West is another reason for the increasing violence around the world. The role that not only Pakistan but China plays in keeping India on the back-foot in the region is also left unmentioned in this unbalanced report. And lest we forget, nearly 400,000 Hindus were driven out of the Kashmir Valley by these very same forces in the late 1980s, and their plight and their sacrifices garner no sympathy from the "liberal" newspapers in the West. Abettors of such religion-inspired violence should be held equally responsible for this carnage.
7
For everyone standing high on their horses passing judgment let me summarize the Kashmir dispute for you.
1) The people of Kashmir want freedom - sure that sounds great - but in practical terms having an independent country wedged between Indian and Pakistan is impractical - you couldn't do this without issues in the best of European neighborhoods let alone Southeast Asia.
2) Option 2 - secede Kashmir to Pakistan entirely and let Pakistan deal with the problems. Problem is Kashmiris don't exactly want this and India is too proud a nation to let this happen - not after 3 wars and the lives lost.
3) That leaves us with the only practical option that is to make Kashmir an open border state shared between India and Pakistan - meaning you don't need a visa to visit. Removal of all military presence (Indian and Pakistani) from Kashmir and to give it autonomy in governance.
This 3rd option is the so called dream scenario that India and Pakistan have been working towards - sometimes halfheartedly, with fits and starts. A precondition of which is that Pakistan give up its support for jihadi terrorist groups as its foreign policy.
Having experienced Pakistan first hand for the last decade in the war on terror - United State's own assessment of Pakistan is that its untrustworthy and duplicitous. And there you have it.
Also let me clarify something - you can not win Kashmir or anything through an armed struggle with the Indian government. This isn't Afghanistan.
1) The people of Kashmir want freedom - sure that sounds great - but in practical terms having an independent country wedged between Indian and Pakistan is impractical - you couldn't do this without issues in the best of European neighborhoods let alone Southeast Asia.
2) Option 2 - secede Kashmir to Pakistan entirely and let Pakistan deal with the problems. Problem is Kashmiris don't exactly want this and India is too proud a nation to let this happen - not after 3 wars and the lives lost.
3) That leaves us with the only practical option that is to make Kashmir an open border state shared between India and Pakistan - meaning you don't need a visa to visit. Removal of all military presence (Indian and Pakistani) from Kashmir and to give it autonomy in governance.
This 3rd option is the so called dream scenario that India and Pakistan have been working towards - sometimes halfheartedly, with fits and starts. A precondition of which is that Pakistan give up its support for jihadi terrorist groups as its foreign policy.
Having experienced Pakistan first hand for the last decade in the war on terror - United State's own assessment of Pakistan is that its untrustworthy and duplicitous. And there you have it.
Also let me clarify something - you can not win Kashmir or anything through an armed struggle with the Indian government. This isn't Afghanistan.
7
Option 2 - There is another point to the good points you have made. Kashmir has about 50% of the population, Jammu and Ladakh have the remaining 50%. Only some people in the Kashmir valley are looking for independence. Why should India not care about the remaining 50% who want to be a part of a secular India and not a part of Pakistan where no sect other than Sunnis have any rights.?
The 3rd option is also a non-starter because it will be used like Nepal is for promoting cross-border terrorism through an open border.
The 3rd option is also a non-starter because it will be used like Nepal is for promoting cross-border terrorism through an open border.
3
The third option is the only sensible option and if voiced loudly, will garner overwhelming support in Pakistan. Why, because Pakistanis are sick and tired of the over powering army that exists on the justification of an eventual war with India on the issue of Kashmir, and Hindu Pandits should come back to Kashmir. They share the culture and language of the region. The last thing you want is a Kashmir that is another Pakistan.
Describing these weapons as "pellet guns" is misleading. Almost everyone thinks a pellet gun is a pneumatically operated gun that fires a single projectile. The guns used here are riot guns, shot guns using the same ammunition used for hunting birds and small game. My guess is that smaller shot is used, probably #5 or #6, but it's not fun to be struck by these projectiles. I know, as I was wounded by a rabbit hunter using #5 shot. These are firearms; the shot is propelled by gunpowder.
1
The problem at its heart has to do with: Religion.
Muslims want to impose their deranged 7th century tribal witch doctor's beliefs on everyone around them. Buddhists and Sikhs want to impose their similarly deranged beliefs on everyone around them. None of the groups can accept that anyone will disagree with or refuse to accept their beliefs. The results of non-acceptance range from official governmental discrimination to outright violence - which is the usual solution that religious believers arrive at.
So long as the governments favor their preferred religious doctrines, dogmas, and delusions, the violence will only continue.
Muslims want to impose their deranged 7th century tribal witch doctor's beliefs on everyone around them. Buddhists and Sikhs want to impose their similarly deranged beliefs on everyone around them. None of the groups can accept that anyone will disagree with or refuse to accept their beliefs. The results of non-acceptance range from official governmental discrimination to outright violence - which is the usual solution that religious believers arrive at.
So long as the governments favor their preferred religious doctrines, dogmas, and delusions, the violence will only continue.
5
Government do not have any religious dogma. Period. India is secular in full practice.
2
I understand your comment with relation to Muslims but Buddhists and Sikhs. Not sure why would equality for all, following the middle path would be considered deranged.
3
Easow: Pakistan was created to be an Islamic Republic, embodying the Qu'ran and the other elements of Islam. This is the origin of the protests in Kashmir, and indeed it's the origin of violence in India since the British left. This occurs because Islam dictates that non-Muslims are treated as less than fully human (dhimmi).
Rambler: The other forms of religious doctrine impose beliefs upon their followers as Islam does, and as a result, non-believers are seen as second-class citizens. No religion consistently believes that everyone who isn't a card-carrying member of the religion is equal to card-carrying members of the religion.
Rambler: The other forms of religious doctrine impose beliefs upon their followers as Islam does, and as a result, non-believers are seen as second-class citizens. No religion consistently believes that everyone who isn't a card-carrying member of the religion is equal to card-carrying members of the religion.
4
Did Kashmir not have democratic elections in December of 2014? The Jihadis did not contest elections for they know they did not stand a chance of winning. So now they are pelting stones to overturn an elected government's mandate. With what moral authority do these Jihadis protest? Let's imagine the scenario with Trump supporters doing the same here in US when they lose and what the reaction of law enforcement will be. Compared with Turkish Kurds, Chinese Uighurs, Tibetans, Russian Chechens, this bunch has it lucky. The authorities in India have been patient and considerate in view of violence actively sponsored and instigated by Pakistan. The 1980s-90s saw genocide of Kashmiri Pandits in Valley followed by ethnic cleansing of Sikhs and other minorities. If India gives in, it will act as a template for Jihadis all over the world.
10
It's good to see that NYT reported both sides of the story. There's a good reason why the Indian army has to use force to quell the protests — they are in danger themselves. Having said that, the use of pellets should be stopped immediately. They're barbaric. They kill you without killing you. These injured young men now have nothing live for and will return to the streets.
However, when will Kashmiris understand that they have no future with Pakistan? Have they forgotten how Bangladesh was treated under Pakistan? Don't they realize that Pakistan is a failed country? India, with its secular constitution and growing economy, is a commonsense choice they don't even have to make. They already are Indian. They should move to a large city, get a job, and build a good life for themselves.
However, when will Kashmiris understand that they have no future with Pakistan? Have they forgotten how Bangladesh was treated under Pakistan? Don't they realize that Pakistan is a failed country? India, with its secular constitution and growing economy, is a commonsense choice they don't even have to make. They already are Indian. They should move to a large city, get a job, and build a good life for themselves.
25
You seem to be to be parroting old line of Kashmiris
struggling to join Pakistan. You need to read the
article again. It clearly says Kashmiris are campaigning
for "azadi" ( freedom from Indian rule). They don't want
to be part of pakistan. They want to be free.
struggling to join Pakistan. You need to read the
article again. It clearly says Kashmiris are campaigning
for "azadi" ( freedom from Indian rule). They don't want
to be part of pakistan. They want to be free.
When people like you advise us to leave Kashmir and go to Pakistan, It doesn't make us laugh; rather, it shows how tolerant, secular and Democratic India is. In 1947, Kashmiris being a Muslim majority state under Sheikh Abdullah refused to Join Pakistan (created in the name of religion).
Kashmir is a problem of “broken promises and deceit”. India never respected promises made by her own Prime Minister. On November 2, 1947 speaking on All Indian Radio Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru said, “Fate of the State of Jammu & Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. The pledge we have given not only to people of Kashmir but also to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it”. On November 25, 1947 Nehru informed the Indian parliament “We have suggested that when people of Kashmir are given a chance to decide their future, this should be done under the supervision of an impartial tribunal such as United Nations Organization”
We know the economic situations of both India and Pakistan, especially the huge economic growth of India. We wish India becomes the most prosperous and powerful nation, yet, we want to decide for our future and be “Independent” and not be the part of your great economic growth. People in Kashmir want independence as you sought from British. We want to be free people, to choose for our future and that of our children.
Kashmir is a problem of “broken promises and deceit”. India never respected promises made by her own Prime Minister. On November 2, 1947 speaking on All Indian Radio Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru said, “Fate of the State of Jammu & Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. The pledge we have given not only to people of Kashmir but also to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it”. On November 25, 1947 Nehru informed the Indian parliament “We have suggested that when people of Kashmir are given a chance to decide their future, this should be done under the supervision of an impartial tribunal such as United Nations Organization”
We know the economic situations of both India and Pakistan, especially the huge economic growth of India. We wish India becomes the most prosperous and powerful nation, yet, we want to decide for our future and be “Independent” and not be the part of your great economic growth. People in Kashmir want independence as you sought from British. We want to be free people, to choose for our future and that of our children.
Seventy years should be enough to convince India that Kashmiris don't want to be part of India. More of the same will result in more of the same.
In 1908, Arobindo Ghosh who at that time was involved in violent insurrection against the British and now revered as a freedom fighter said that the British must leave India not because they were good or bad but because they were outsiders. I guess, the Kashmiris feel the same way about Indians now.
In 1958, General de Gaulle understood that it was in the interest of France to leave Algeria. He had a clear strategic vision. All he wanted was access to Sahara to test French nuclear bombs. Everything else was expendable. He negotiated with the leaders of FLN then thought of as nothing but murderous terrorists by the French. The decision to quit Algeria saved the soul of France. Unfortunately, there is nobody with such a strategic vision in the subcontinent. All parties want the maximum and there is no give and take.
I grew up in India of Pundit Nehru in the fifties and sixties. It was a much more of an idealistic time. Now it seems that many in Hindu bourgeoisie have become obsessed with power. India at least in the north is becoming more like its neighbor, Pakistan. As the saying goes be careful how you choose your enemy, for you will come to resemble him.
In 1958, General de Gaulle understood that it was in the interest of France to leave Algeria. He had a clear strategic vision. All he wanted was access to Sahara to test French nuclear bombs. Everything else was expendable. He negotiated with the leaders of FLN then thought of as nothing but murderous terrorists by the French. The decision to quit Algeria saved the soul of France. Unfortunately, there is nobody with such a strategic vision in the subcontinent. All parties want the maximum and there is no give and take.
I grew up in India of Pundit Nehru in the fifties and sixties. It was a much more of an idealistic time. Now it seems that many in Hindu bourgeoisie have become obsessed with power. India at least in the north is becoming more like its neighbor, Pakistan. As the saying goes be careful how you choose your enemy, for you will come to resemble him.
1
Violence begets violence. A mother who wants her 8 yr old to grow up and riot invites violence upon her kids. It's convenient how always these "victims" were just "standing around" and "suddenly" they were shot with pellets at random. The more probable scenario would be that they were actively participating and got too close to the security and faced the consequence of their rioting as as result .
4
Not surprising to see a great journalistic piece by NYT that focuses on the use of lethal force by security forces in certain parts of world and the damage done to its civil population draws so much interest from the those who are not living in the troubled area. Always easy to comment and point finger on war, atrocities and proxy wars from the comfort of their couch. But it is a different matter when you are living it on day to day basis or being affected by it when you don't want anything to do with it.
I don't think the author is taking sides on who is doing what in Kashmir, but simply stating the fact that the tool used by the security forces is lethal and should not be used on the civil population due to its permanent damaging effects. But everyone is ignoring it and jumping to the rhetoric of who is involved and who should be blamed.
I don't think the author is taking sides on who is doing what in Kashmir, but simply stating the fact that the tool used by the security forces is lethal and should not be used on the civil population due to its permanent damaging effects. But everyone is ignoring it and jumping to the rhetoric of who is involved and who should be blamed.
Yes, the tool is not the best but look at the alternatives for when this has been used.
A mob of about a 1000 people throw baseball-sized stones at you and from behind them armed and masked people mix grenades and Molotov cocktails to the shower of stone.
They rush you and your team of 20-30 policemen and threaten to burn down the police station with you inside it or throw your car down a 2000 ft valley (which they have already done).
What is the alternative? A water pistol or maybe an Automatic Rifle with live rounds. We have many here, should send some over to the police in India. :(
The Policeman's life is not less worthy than that of a rioter.
A mob of about a 1000 people throw baseball-sized stones at you and from behind them armed and masked people mix grenades and Molotov cocktails to the shower of stone.
They rush you and your team of 20-30 policemen and threaten to burn down the police station with you inside it or throw your car down a 2000 ft valley (which they have already done).
What is the alternative? A water pistol or maybe an Automatic Rifle with live rounds. We have many here, should send some over to the police in India. :(
The Policeman's life is not less worthy than that of a rioter.
2
I was expecting a backlash of pro-Indian comments here and it came. One thing I have learned from spending a great deal of time in different parts of India (including the disputed Kashmir region) and also many Indian friends is that they are overly sensitive to any criticism of their country. It must be everyone else's fault. It extends throughout the, still existent caste system, but is most prevalent with the wealthy and emerging middle class and especially the UK and US. expat community. Ellen Barry has written a well researched article. The Indian media and the Indian people as a whole need to be able to listen to criticism and accept that at least some of it is valid. Yes parallels can be drawn with Israel. For such an educated and intelligent society so many people have such a defensive overly patriotic chip on their shoulder that India can do no wrong. This is a dangerous attitude.
1
You have a point when it comes to cast system, safety of women, corruption etc. When it comes to Kashmir, even liberal Indian Americans will not agree with your thesis. We have seen for decades the ethnic cleansing of Kashmir Pundits, Sikhs etc. Dividing Kashmir by religion goes everything against Indians who stand for secularism. Gaining an ethnically cleansed Kashmir stands for everything that an Islamic theocracy stands for. The twain can never meet.
2
Oh, trust me when I say Indians flog their political leaders and even the state when it does something wrong. It is called Elections. Also, listen to the news media (sometimes a circus but nonetheless) to see how critical it can be.
But in this case, the patriotic chip on the shoulder is rightly placed. The history bears evidence to that.
But in this case, the patriotic chip on the shoulder is rightly placed. The history bears evidence to that.
2
NYT has done well to highlight Kasmir's plight. Since 1947, Kashmiris have dreamed of freedom. At various times the conflict has taken various shapes but the flame of freedom has been alive in Kashmiri heart.
The callous 'patriotic' indians try to smear the freedom struggle in terms of terrorism and ISIS. This is older than all that. Close to a hundred thousand Kashmiris have given their lives in this struggle.
A little sanity will inform that an independent Kashmir composed of areas from both India and Pakistan will be a prosperous and beautiful country and pave the way for friendly relations between India and Pakistan.
Borders are not sacred, human life is.
70 years should be enough to understand Kashmiris point of view.
Please raise your voice to put an end to this occupation and violence.
The callous 'patriotic' indians try to smear the freedom struggle in terms of terrorism and ISIS. This is older than all that. Close to a hundred thousand Kashmiris have given their lives in this struggle.
A little sanity will inform that an independent Kashmir composed of areas from both India and Pakistan will be a prosperous and beautiful country and pave the way for friendly relations between India and Pakistan.
Borders are not sacred, human life is.
70 years should be enough to understand Kashmiris point of view.
Please raise your voice to put an end to this occupation and violence.
9
There were 550 princely states in British India. All went either to India or Pakistan. Legally, the rulers held the sole prerogative for deciding which state went where.
That said, there is no sympathy for the so called cause of the Sunni Muslims of the Kashmir valley (a small part of the whole J&K state) because-
1. No one likes terrorism (or terrorist heroes brandishing AK-47s)
2. Everyone fears hardline Islamism
3. Everyone worries about the ethno-religious minorities- and the Muslims are notorious for treating their minorities shabbily. Kashmir itself saw an ethnic cleansing of its minority community and that has put a big question mark on the "humanity" angle.
That said, there is no sympathy for the so called cause of the Sunni Muslims of the Kashmir valley (a small part of the whole J&K state) because-
1. No one likes terrorism (or terrorist heroes brandishing AK-47s)
2. Everyone fears hardline Islamism
3. Everyone worries about the ethno-religious minorities- and the Muslims are notorious for treating their minorities shabbily. Kashmir itself saw an ethnic cleansing of its minority community and that has put a big question mark on the "humanity" angle.
1
Tauqir, I understand your point of view but an independent Kashmir would not be stable. In beauty of course Kashmir is the Switzerland of South Asia, but in its power to prevent outside meddling, it lacks the experience that the Swiss have.
Dear Tauqir:
You are correct on many counts. However no one from outside should prescribe a solution. All that the Kashmiri's are asking for is the basic right to determine their own future. Let the Kashmiri people express their right of self-determination in a free and internationally supervised referendum. Hold the referendum in both the Indian and Pakistan controlled areas of Jammu & Kashmir. After all this is what the UN promised the Kashmiri people back in 1948.
You are correct on many counts. However no one from outside should prescribe a solution. All that the Kashmiri's are asking for is the basic right to determine their own future. Let the Kashmiri people express their right of self-determination in a free and internationally supervised referendum. Hold the referendum in both the Indian and Pakistan controlled areas of Jammu & Kashmir. After all this is what the UN promised the Kashmiri people back in 1948.
2
Perhaps India should adopt US policing methods applied at home & abroad, use real bullets. Lots of bullets.
11
I can't remember the last time we put down a riot in the U.S. with real bullets. Kent State maybe. But it's not the best move, only produces more rioting in the long run.
2
I do not think there is any parallel with US policing here. The police in US are dealing with a significantly armed local criminal population and the police at times overreact causing violation of human rights. This is a significantly different issue. Kashmiris look at their struggle as a fight for independence. For a long time they have not considered themselves as Indians. A parallel to this is the American war of independence or the Indian freedom struggle. There are no logical reasons on why a ethnic people group demand independence only emotional ones.
1
Right - because we just spray domestic protest crowds with bullets, "lots of bullets". Just wow.
2
indian state terrorism is maiming and blinding the youth of kashmir. Civilized world has to take a stand against this, selective morality does nt help the cause of humanity. Indias display of fire power against civilians it claims to be its own is highly reprehensible... Where are the worlds institutions of justise !
7
This violence is not good for Indian Government and it is not good for people of Kashmir as well who rely heavily on government dole out this violence is just good for one group the separatists. Indian Government should enter into a conversation with the Kashmiris and understand their grievances. Government should also try to make them aware that this is just incitement and their kids are better off in schools where they can have a real future. A positive image of the Indian Government is needed. Kashmiris demand Azaadi(freedom) but they need to ask themselves freedom from what and why.
14
I agree with you. Kashmir as an independent state would be very vulnerable to meddling by Pakistan, China, not to mention India and Russia, and can we really leave the US out of it? It could be worse than Palestine!
Kashmiris should accept that for the time being they are part of India but the Indian government should make every attempt to address their grievances.
Kashmiris should accept that for the time being they are part of India but the Indian government should make every attempt to address their grievances.
3
Freedom from the Indian constitution, as it is not based on the rules of Sharia.
2
India appears to be deliberately blinding the Kashmiris, apart from killing them left, right and center with real bullets. Deliberate blinding in itself amounts to war crime and should be dealt with as that.
3
There is no war - how can there be a "war crime" ? And if you suggest the KAshmiri civilians are waging a "war" against the Indian state then they automatically become "civilian combatants" and are not covered under the Geneva Convention. Finally, rioters who engage in violence are not protected under ANY convention and the Indian Constitution and Criminal Code allows the use of force by police to contain and curb violence just like any other democracy.
Muslims who find it hurtful to see their co-religionists targeted must now feel how the victims of Islamic terrorism feel when their co-religionists are targetted.
Muslims who find it hurtful to see their co-religionists targeted must now feel how the victims of Islamic terrorism feel when their co-religionists are targetted.
2
Ask those chiselled Caucasian facial featured, olive skin Kashmiris not to throw stones at Indian army
3
What are Indian troops doing in Kashmir in the first place?
4
Indian troops are keeping Pakistani motivated secessionist brain washed Kashmiri muslims from disturbing peace and letting 80% of the population who want to be part of Indian democracy carry out their lives normally. The NYT reporter has neglected to highlight the majority of peace loving Kashmiri people (whic also include hindus, sikhs and buddhists). Not to mention the Indian troops are routinely killing heavily armed well trained terrorists pushed into Indian Kashmir by Pakistani army.
3
or rather what is Indian tax payers money doing in Kashmir?
1
Policing a region that committed ethnic genocide against its minority Hindus after it joined the Indian Union at the request of its erstwhile ruler - the Maharaja of Kashmir and Jammu in 1947.
2
So this is special for Kashmir. They don't shoot to kill. They just shoot to blind.
Sectarianism in action.
Sectarianism in action.
3
Everyone has failed to mention that Modi's Hindu national party's rise to power has led to nationwide tensions with the Muslim population all over India and Kashmire the most densely Muslim area is no exception.
We are talking about a person who was banned from coming into US because of his role in incitement of violence against ethnic minorities in India including against Muslims.
Maybe the leader at the top is to blame and not just the people at the bottom.
We are talking about a person who was banned from coming into US because of his role in incitement of violence against ethnic minorities in India including against Muslims.
Maybe the leader at the top is to blame and not just the people at the bottom.
7
I hope by "Ethnic minorities" you mean Ahmedis, Shias and not just wahabi sunnis?
The only problem with such statements is that it is totally false.
All the opposition parties tried to give legality to this baseless claim for a decade but finally Supreme court of India's ruling clarified that Modi was not at all involved. The violence against so called ethnic minorities or wahabists (as I'd say) was because they burnt a train full of Hindu women/children who were returning from a pilgrimage.
The only problem with such statements is that it is totally false.
All the opposition parties tried to give legality to this baseless claim for a decade but finally Supreme court of India's ruling clarified that Modi was not at all involved. The violence against so called ethnic minorities or wahabists (as I'd say) was because they burnt a train full of Hindu women/children who were returning from a pilgrimage.
3
Tensions with Muslims "populations" is not hard at all and arises everywhere Muslims reside with non-Muslims - be it India or Europe.
Further, Muslims are not a "ethnic minority" - they are a religious minority. And the US "ban" on him was arbitrary, vague and utterly unsubstantiated as no material evidence proves any complicity on PM Modi's part of any incitement.
Muslims have themselves incited violence against India's majority community by sheltering, condoning and participating in attacks against Hindu temples, Hindu pilgrims (as in Gujarat) and Hindu citizens at large through their co-religionists from Pakistan and elsewhere. Hindus retaliating to this is expected and natural consequence of a harassed majority encumbered with a fanatical Muslims populace. Buddhists in Myanmar, Christians and Atheists in Europe, Communists in China all have been at odds with their Muslims populace so this is not atypical behavior of people who live with Muslims.
Finally, the Supreme Court of India has after an independent investigation monitored by it found no evidence to indict erstwhile Chief Minister Modi on any charges of incitement of violence against Muslims.
Further, Muslims are not a "ethnic minority" - they are a religious minority. And the US "ban" on him was arbitrary, vague and utterly unsubstantiated as no material evidence proves any complicity on PM Modi's part of any incitement.
Muslims have themselves incited violence against India's majority community by sheltering, condoning and participating in attacks against Hindu temples, Hindu pilgrims (as in Gujarat) and Hindu citizens at large through their co-religionists from Pakistan and elsewhere. Hindus retaliating to this is expected and natural consequence of a harassed majority encumbered with a fanatical Muslims populace. Buddhists in Myanmar, Christians and Atheists in Europe, Communists in China all have been at odds with their Muslims populace so this is not atypical behavior of people who live with Muslims.
Finally, the Supreme Court of India has after an independent investigation monitored by it found no evidence to indict erstwhile Chief Minister Modi on any charges of incitement of violence against Muslims.
5
How to deal with terrorist acts and glorification of terrorists killed is the main issue at stake. But the author has no suggestions on the top job? Moreover, microscopic non-Muslims from kashmir forcibly exiled in 1990 and living as displace persons outside deserved a sentence or two but no mention. Can NYT highlight their tragedy in one of the articles, especially on wild protests organized against their return recently by the separatists and some mainstream political parties from Kashmir.
13
Even I feel that NYT treated this story so superficially it is more complex than this portrayal that we have here.
2
It would be fair if NYT does and investigative article on the ethnic cleansing that occurred in Kashmir in the 90s. And an article on Baluchistan's genocide.
Without this, this article would be viewed as a mouthpiece for anti India propgoganda.
But NYT cannot be blamed as it has been losing its ability to objectively dissect international politic and become America's version of Sputnik (as in another article of today's edition).
Without this, this article would be viewed as a mouthpiece for anti India propgoganda.
But NYT cannot be blamed as it has been losing its ability to objectively dissect international politic and become America's version of Sputnik (as in another article of today's edition).
18
Not sure if the sectarian unrest in Baluchistan/Pakistan can be compared with the independence drive in Indian-held-Kashmir. Modi is trying to seek a counter-weight, but this will be a tough diplomatic sell especially seeing the current reaction of Indian security forces. Will Modi use blinding-pellet guns on protesters in Gujurat?
It's almost like this article was set up as clickbait to draw Indian comments to tell the rest of the story.
11
First, it's foolish to use pellet guns and cause permanent damage. This should be banned. There are protests around the world and no civilized country should do this.
That said, Where are the sons and daughters of the so called separatists leaders. I bet they will never be seen in such protests. So called "Kashmiriyat" - we all Kashmiris are one irrespective of religion has never existed - it's rather "Islamiyat" - Islamization of that region. You therefore will only see Muslims protesting. And it would be stupid for India to turn this region into another failed state like Pakistan.
That said, Where are the sons and daughters of the so called separatists leaders. I bet they will never be seen in such protests. So called "Kashmiriyat" - we all Kashmiris are one irrespective of religion has never existed - it's rather "Islamiyat" - Islamization of that region. You therefore will only see Muslims protesting. And it would be stupid for India to turn this region into another failed state like Pakistan.
15
Wasn't Pakistan created specifically for Muslims to live under Muslim rule? Wasn't Pakistan effectively purged of Hindus when the partition happened? I wonder if any of these protesters have considered summoning the courage of their convictions and moving to Pakistan instead of rioting in India.
Granted, they'll have to consider the perils of instead being blown up in random bombings and shot by authorities much more likely to use actual bullets, instead of pellets. This is to say nothing of the considerations they may have if they happen to be femaile, and have to walk around in a tent. But hey - it beats the indignities of living under the relatively progressive rule of a non-Muslim country, right?
Granted, they'll have to consider the perils of instead being blown up in random bombings and shot by authorities much more likely to use actual bullets, instead of pellets. This is to say nothing of the considerations they may have if they happen to be femaile, and have to walk around in a tent. But hey - it beats the indignities of living under the relatively progressive rule of a non-Muslim country, right?
43
Still there are millions of Hindus in Pakistan Living a peace full life. Both the Kashmir should be joined and declare a new independent country.
Wrong Cristobal, Kashmir was to be an independent state, not in Pakistan or India.
Government-authorized capacity for insane yet deliberate cruelty against any target populace remains appalling, more so perhaps in India with its claim to many thousands of years of cultural development. Ha! But it didn't begin with the ovens of Dachau, nor diminish with US napalming of Viet innocents, nor with shrapnel wounds to Syrian and Yemeni children, so why would mankind expect better of itself even in Kashmir, one of the most beautiful locations on our planet?
2
The world media is writing on Kashmir and it's journey to freedom.
I love this road. We all once followed the same road when Nelson Mandela led South Africa to freedom.
Dastardly India is slowly being cornered. Soon, it will be forced to issue referendum. The East India Company is being tied up in their own wicket net.
I love this road. We all once followed the same road when Nelson Mandela led South Africa to freedom.
Dastardly India is slowly being cornered. Soon, it will be forced to issue referendum. The East India Company is being tied up in their own wicket net.
4
All I want to say is that, what are small children doing on the front lines in these demonstrations? They are being pushed forward as shields by militants and so the Pakistan backed militants are to blame.
12
Over the years the Indian adopted a policy of self-deception on Kashmir. It realized its people that Kashmir is integral part of India, ignoring the UN resolutions and a common stance of the international community that the land is disputed and awaits its resolution. Ironically, every Indian government made it a point to provoke the domestic vote bank and win the elections. But unrealistic approach brought the Indian government in a blind alley. The Indian government knows it is disputed land and its people also know the truth. However, they have refused to accept this reality. Now the rope of deception has started tightening around India’s neck. Indian prime minister and his team, instead to finding a solution, have hurled their volley of allegations on Pakistan which is also a party to the dispute according to the United Nations. Still there is time the Indian government should understand the ground realities and tell its people that Kashmir is not India’s integral part before reaching a point of no return. India is putting blame of its blunders on Pakistan. It is using ruthless force against civilians and the world is looking like silent spectator. It is the hypocrisy of the United Nations, United States other countries who call themselves the champions of human rights that no voice of concern has been raised from any quarter. India is trying to colour the indigenous struggle as a territorial dispute between Pakistan and India, ignoring the aspirations of Kashmiris.
2
Zia have you read the UN Resolution before citing it here. Please do not parrot the language of the islamists who have an agenda. Kashmir is an integral part of India and will always be. Go read the UN resolution on Kashmir before you even talk. You will be ashamed of your own thoughts.
2
Well said!
Very unfortunate and I hope the Indian govt finds a substitute for these pellet guns soon.
However, keep in mind that in the US, if the police even think you are holding a weapon, they shoot first and ask questions later.
Here, you have a mob of young men (with members of some jihadi grounds among them - as photographs show and as Jihadi leaders like Lashkar e Toiba chief Hafiz Saeed himself declared) throwing rocks at policemen, burning police stations after stealing weapons in the police armory. I think the Indian security forces have displayed a lot of restraint in the circumstances.
Also, giving independence to the Kashmir Valley (a relatively small portion of the state of Jammu and Kashmir) is impractical and is not going to happen. India is not about to give up territory to allow the creation of a Sharia inspired state in the middle of its territory. Also renegotiating Independence era borders is simply not going to happen.
To all those citing Scotland and Quebec - sorry, different place, different consequences. If Scotland becomes independent, it will continue to be a peaceful, stable, democratic neighbor living in peace with the rest of the UK. An independent Kashmir valley will be a magnet for every jihadi in the region. It will be a disaster like Libya and Syria and Iraq.
So I hope a political solution will be found. Kashmiris anyway elect their own state government and have an exceptional amount of autonomy compared to other Indian states.
However, keep in mind that in the US, if the police even think you are holding a weapon, they shoot first and ask questions later.
Here, you have a mob of young men (with members of some jihadi grounds among them - as photographs show and as Jihadi leaders like Lashkar e Toiba chief Hafiz Saeed himself declared) throwing rocks at policemen, burning police stations after stealing weapons in the police armory. I think the Indian security forces have displayed a lot of restraint in the circumstances.
Also, giving independence to the Kashmir Valley (a relatively small portion of the state of Jammu and Kashmir) is impractical and is not going to happen. India is not about to give up territory to allow the creation of a Sharia inspired state in the middle of its territory. Also renegotiating Independence era borders is simply not going to happen.
To all those citing Scotland and Quebec - sorry, different place, different consequences. If Scotland becomes independent, it will continue to be a peaceful, stable, democratic neighbor living in peace with the rest of the UK. An independent Kashmir valley will be a magnet for every jihadi in the region. It will be a disaster like Libya and Syria and Iraq.
So I hope a political solution will be found. Kashmiris anyway elect their own state government and have an exceptional amount of autonomy compared to other Indian states.
9
Disastrous situation in Kashmir & and worst kind of Human Rights Violation: I condemn the systematic violence used by Indian armed forces in the disputed state of Jammu and Kashmir, and I demand an immediate end to this state terrorism against its Citizens. I furthermore, demand that Indian government communicate with people of Kashmir,, rather than considering it a bilateral issue between India and Pakistan. I also call on world leaders and human rights organizations to unequivocally condemn the siege of Kashmir and the ensuing war crimes and human rights violations by India’s security forces.
Citizens of Kashmir are also humans i urge International Community to come forward and save the Humanity.
Citizens of Kashmir are also humans i urge International Community to come forward and save the Humanity.
2
Who are you to "demand" anything ? Your "demands" are meaningless... Are you a citizen of India ?
The state has ever right to deal with violent protesters harshly. Those rioters who pervert the right to peaceful protest by resorting to arson, stone throwing and violence will meet violence as is their wish. The people of India fullysupport the Indian security forces in ensuring law and order is maintained in Kashmir valley and that is the duty of the Indian Government to do so.
The Kashmiri people communicate only with violence - stones and bombs and guns. That is the root problem of the Kashmiri people - particularly the Muslims. They have not used the tools of democracy, or law or other means to communicate. Their main attempt has been violence and terrorism all predicated on Islamist ideology and financing. The fact that they fail repeatedly is unsurprising as terrorism has not succeeded anywhere in the 21st century .
The state has ever right to deal with violent protesters harshly. Those rioters who pervert the right to peaceful protest by resorting to arson, stone throwing and violence will meet violence as is their wish. The people of India fullysupport the Indian security forces in ensuring law and order is maintained in Kashmir valley and that is the duty of the Indian Government to do so.
The Kashmiri people communicate only with violence - stones and bombs and guns. That is the root problem of the Kashmiri people - particularly the Muslims. They have not used the tools of democracy, or law or other means to communicate. Their main attempt has been violence and terrorism all predicated on Islamist ideology and financing. The fact that they fail repeatedly is unsurprising as terrorism has not succeeded anywhere in the 21st century .
1
This is really sad and it is not new there. But what was the kids doing in that protest rally? There were pushed in front of force and asked to throw stones. Some people do not want peace at all. And they want the kids to be injured, even killed, so that the anger and fire can reach it's peak. One sided story should not be published. Force are not doing good always, but at the time of flood and other calamities, these force come to rescue the people. Moreover a terrorist is a terrorist. And nobody should support him. Hope this will end soon, but some people never want it.
7
Ans availble in the world to contain offensive crowds without killing them like in china in tien mann square when the crowds were made up of disgruntled youth.there r somany paid journos who r spreading false rumers about the use of these guns and in india to ban these guns has taken the usual form of. Pseudo-secular -pseudo soscialist human rights activism to make the state and ruling party vis-a-vis security forces duly demoralized and wk to dislodge the ruling leaders from powe on the power ladder to enjoy the spoilsof corrupt power setup of india.
4
Ms. Banwo had provided the root cause of all three trouble in last sentence of this article. Her state of mind is "An eye for an eye" at this time and we all know where it all leads.
India should withdraw security forces from civilian areas. This kind of measures should be temporary and not last for decades.
People and leaders of Kashmir have tried all tools to get an azadi but without any success.
it's time for both parties to retreat from original positions and start fresh. don't do it for yourself but do for next generation which should be looking forward to an education better then "stone throwing" as currently envisioned by Ms Banwo for her 8 year old.
India should withdraw security forces from civilian areas. This kind of measures should be temporary and not last for decades.
People and leaders of Kashmir have tried all tools to get an azadi but without any success.
it's time for both parties to retreat from original positions and start fresh. don't do it for yourself but do for next generation which should be looking forward to an education better then "stone throwing" as currently envisioned by Ms Banwo for her 8 year old.
2
Ms Banwo is the problem - she believes in violence, and hopes for violence. Yet like the typical hypocrite cries and moans when the violence she hopes to visit on others visits her.
2
Pakistan is sponsoring this unrest and putting young men and children in the line of fire to elicit sympathy. Indian forces show remarkable restraint but have to respond when attacked. If people are losing their eyesight, blame Pakistan.
14
There is no army in POK.
The problem lies in the fractured rhetoric. It emanates from statements like "Burhan Wani, a terrorist" or "Kashmir an Integral part of India" etc. The truth is Burhan Wani was not a terrorist but a freedom fighter, loved and admired for his courage by all Kashmiris. Thats why we are witnessing this unrest in Kashmir. He was to Kashmir what Bhagat Singh was to India. But India time and again is stigmatizing image of Kashmiris as terrorists & fundamentalists thanks to post 9/11 rhetoric & growing atmosphere of Islamophobia.
Also Kashmir is an international dispute acknowledged by UN and primarily it was India that went to UN to settle the Kashmir Dispute. However now their stance seems moved as they themselves know that Kashmiris do not see their future with India. All there jocular statements like only 5%Kashmiris protesting or raising the issue of Balochistan is nothing but glossing and diverting the international community from the existing ground situation.
50 days on, Kashmir stands isolated from the International world; Media gag, Internet ban, Mobile services banned and curfew continues!
It is Indeed shameful for a country with largest democracy that does not gives its people even the Right to Protest peacefully.
Also Kashmir is an international dispute acknowledged by UN and primarily it was India that went to UN to settle the Kashmir Dispute. However now their stance seems moved as they themselves know that Kashmiris do not see their future with India. All there jocular statements like only 5%Kashmiris protesting or raising the issue of Balochistan is nothing but glossing and diverting the international community from the existing ground situation.
50 days on, Kashmir stands isolated from the International world; Media gag, Internet ban, Mobile services banned and curfew continues!
It is Indeed shameful for a country with largest democracy that does not gives its people even the Right to Protest peacefully.
25
Pray, was this a peaceful protest?
Well done on the obfuscation. Turning out in thousands and stone-throwing, looting and arson are not hallmarks of a peaceful protest. The country Kashmir belongs to, India, allows you to protest peacefully - no problem. Heck, they are even paying thousands of dollars in medical costs per eye damaged - even for the violent, terrorist sympathizers who shamelessly hide behind their children. Your statement, however, befits the ground realities in Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir. Ever wonder why you don't hear of anything from PoK? Because people are kicked out or shot dead - and dead men tell no tales.
2
Is snatching weapons from Police and throwing Policemen down cliffs, throwing molotov cocktails on Policement peaceful protest?
5
These Kashmiri protestors are among the world's most successful ethnic cleansers - so much so that few stories about them talk about how they successfully cleansed the Kashmir Valley of Pandits back in 1990, and how they have politically made it impossible to bring them back.
11
Thanks for reporting on this terrible human tragedy. Kashmir has barely received any coverage in the media even though the recent episode of rebellion against Indian rule and the resulting loss of civilian lives has been the worst in years. It is sad to see Indian commenters here parroting government propaganda, pretending as if Kashmir is a normal Indian state which would be problem-free but for Pakistani interference. Pakistan does have a history of supporting separatists in Kashmir but many Indian commenters and most international observers believe that for many years now India's wounds in Kashmir are self inflicted.
Time and again the Indian government has rigged elections in the state, ruled with an iron hand in cahoots with local puppets and reacted to legitimate grievances with harsh oppression. Periodically, the reaction to a draconian security regime explodes into violence, like it did again a couple of months ago. Half a million Indian troops are stationed in the state. India has insisted on treating the problem as an issue of "terrorism"; the magic word that gives governments free reign to fire pellet guns and kill civilians without questions being asked.
Ultimately, Kashmir is yet another sad and neglected post-colonial international political dispute. The only solution is for the Indian government to seriously engage Kashmir's political leadership on a political solution rather than demonizing those who oppose India's brutal rule.
Time and again the Indian government has rigged elections in the state, ruled with an iron hand in cahoots with local puppets and reacted to legitimate grievances with harsh oppression. Periodically, the reaction to a draconian security regime explodes into violence, like it did again a couple of months ago. Half a million Indian troops are stationed in the state. India has insisted on treating the problem as an issue of "terrorism"; the magic word that gives governments free reign to fire pellet guns and kill civilians without questions being asked.
Ultimately, Kashmir is yet another sad and neglected post-colonial international political dispute. The only solution is for the Indian government to seriously engage Kashmir's political leadership on a political solution rather than demonizing those who oppose India's brutal rule.
35
India's attempts to firmly hold Kashmir. Main reason to maintain Pakistan under siege. India's attempts to destabilize Pakistan creating and supporting division in Balochistan. India should spend time creating its infrastructure to assist hundreds of millions of destitute Indians. Not attempting from every corner to destabilize Pakistan.
NYT is more interested about Kashmiri terrorists, NOT Kashmiri Pundits who had driven away from their ancestral homesteads and living in refugee camps since 1990s.
Can anyone imagine a situation like this anywhere in this world where minorities will be driving out the majority population out of their homesteads?
Still NYT is sympathetic to terrorists who use children and women as shield. .
Still India is NOT ENOUGH democratic!
Please wake up, appeasing terrorists will NOT pay off.
Can anyone imagine a situation like this anywhere in this world where minorities will be driving out the majority population out of their homesteads?
Still NYT is sympathetic to terrorists who use children and women as shield. .
Still India is NOT ENOUGH democratic!
Please wake up, appeasing terrorists will NOT pay off.
14
Senseless violence by the Kashmiris who want azaadi (freedom) from the Indian rule could be stopped if mothers like Ms. Wazira Banwo counselled their children to stay indoors. The parental connivance or encouragement motivate young Kashmiris to come out on the street and pelt stones on the security forces knowing full well that was an illegal and punishable act.
Parents should also teach their kids the history and geo-politics of Kashmir and the surrounding areas. They are better off with India.
What, after all, is the problem in Kashmir: The pro-separatist and pro-Pakistani forces are not able to digest the fact that there's a coalition government in Kashmir with the BJP, a pro-Hindu party of the center-right. The protest is also against the killing of Burhan Wani, a militant leader whose following and postings on the social media would leave no one in doubt about his separatist-terrorist intentions.
Sympathizers of the rioting Kashmiris ask for the withdrawal of the law that allows the Center to send in its forces. The trouble is if the security/military forces are withdrawn, the ambition of the Islamists will not be limited to the ethnic cleansing of the Hindus. The Wahhabi type Muslim organizations will persecute their liberal fellow Muslims.
In such a case, should the Center run away from its responsibility of providing internal security in Kashmir? Should it not buttress the hands of the secular forces against the Islamists supported by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?
Parents should also teach their kids the history and geo-politics of Kashmir and the surrounding areas. They are better off with India.
What, after all, is the problem in Kashmir: The pro-separatist and pro-Pakistani forces are not able to digest the fact that there's a coalition government in Kashmir with the BJP, a pro-Hindu party of the center-right. The protest is also against the killing of Burhan Wani, a militant leader whose following and postings on the social media would leave no one in doubt about his separatist-terrorist intentions.
Sympathizers of the rioting Kashmiris ask for the withdrawal of the law that allows the Center to send in its forces. The trouble is if the security/military forces are withdrawn, the ambition of the Islamists will not be limited to the ethnic cleansing of the Hindus. The Wahhabi type Muslim organizations will persecute their liberal fellow Muslims.
In such a case, should the Center run away from its responsibility of providing internal security in Kashmir? Should it not buttress the hands of the secular forces against the Islamists supported by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?
7
Burhan Wani was a terrorist - not a young militant. What do you do to terrorists? Kill them.
Not sure why the Indian government doesn't employ drones instead of pellet guns. It'll quickly ensure that the curfew is followed after the first couple days...
Not sure why the Indian government doesn't employ drones instead of pellet guns. It'll quickly ensure that the curfew is followed after the first couple days...
4
Some day, the oppressors will stop oppressing, till ten the oppressed will have to continue to bear witness without eyes.
1
I read lot of comments about why people are out in protest. Well they are protesting against occupied Indian Army. It's was Indian govt including the founding father of India Mr Nehru (circa 1950s) who agreed that issue of Kashmir would be decided by the will of Kashmiris. There are UN resolution to this effect. It never happened. It's the right of Kashmiris to determine their destiny and not the occupying Indian Force. Every few years cycle of violence restart and it will continue unless the people of Kashmir can determine their destiny. The people continue to rise for the same reason American rise against their colonial masters. The same way Indian and Pakistanis decided to fight for independence against their colonial master. Out of all Indian nation should be more understanding of why the occupation will not work because it didn't work for British empire and ultimately they had to go. Just because most Kashmiris are Muslims it doesn't translate them into terrorist. If they asking for freedom that was agreed by Indian govt and UN resolutions than they shouldn't be labelled as ISIS and fanatics. It's Indian occupying army who killed thousands of Kashmiris, injured many many more, detained and tortured thousands. Year of dead eye is current cycle of suppressing the freedom and unfortunately it will not be last because it will political suicide for any Indian politician to agree to the right of self determination of Kashmiris
Have you read the UN resolution. I guess not. Go read it. First Pakistan has to withdraw army completely from all the occupied areas.. The India will keep its army there to maintain law and order and then comes the plebiscite.
Don't be a hypocrite , follow the fist part before you ask for second part.
Don't be a hypocrite , follow the fist part before you ask for second part.
5
Pakistan has complied with every UN resolution and in contrast India has use every delaying tactics to delay the right of self determination for Kashmir. India neither negotiated nor it is likely to negotiate the issue with mutual agreement under UN or any independent body. Please don't use Wikipedia as the source of your knowledge. India is the occupying force and have the history of occupying the independent states that wanted to be part of Pakistan. Whether it is the state of Hyderabad or Kashmir. Violence in Kashmir is the result of Indian failure to negotiate through peaceful ways. It left the Kashmiris with no other option. Don't blame the victims to justify the killing, rape and torture of occupying force. Let the plebiscite held and let Kashmiris decide. There is no point killing and blinding people who refused to be occupied by Indian Army
They could shoot rubber bullets but then it is not found to be effective. The worst part is they finish their evening prayers and throw stones at Police. Who in their right mind would even do that? They even have an stone throwers association there. Police caught few of such protesters and it came to be known that they were being paid 500 bucks per day to throw stones. The state govt released 564 stone throwers earlier this year as a matter of good gesture and expunged their criminal records. The most horrible thing this time around was the usage of the mosque loudspeakers to exhort people to committ arson and violence.
9
Why does India have a space program? They treat their people like cattle – oh wait: they treat cattle better than they treat people.
3
It is regrettable and the eye injuries in children have to be condemned . Indian govt has responsibility to show restraint . Muslims in Kashmir Valley never reconciled to the state accession to India in 1948. The seed of islamic fanaticism has grown into a big tree nourished by the fertilizers across the border .Jammu and Kashmir is most pampered state in India.The State has received Rs.1.14 lakh crore in grants over sixteen years IT has received 10 per cent of all Central grants given to states over the 2000-2016 period, despite having only one per cent of the country’s population, analysis by The Hindu of Central and State finances shows.In contrast, Uttar Pradesh makes up about 13 per cent of the country’s population but received only 8.2 per cent of Central grants in 2000-16. That means J&K, with a population of 12.55 million according to the 2011 Census, received Rs.91,300 per person over the last sixteen years while Uttar Pradesh only received Rs.4,300 per person over the same period.A Kashmiri gets eight times more money from the Centre than citizens from other states.if this cash, managed by the state Government, were to be despatched by money order, each Kashmiri family (with five members on an average) would get Rs 40,460 every year.( India Today October 14, 2002)The only way to solve the problem is to give Kashmir Valley its independence and make sure that there is no Islamist govt there. It is has become a festering sore for India.
7
Couldn't there be other less damaging methods of crowd control than the nonlethal but still life threatening pellet gun fires that are inflicting serious injuries to the budding lives in Kashmir? But beyond this what's urgently required in the troubled state of J&K is a broad based democratic dialogue by the authorities with right intentions and transparency within the maximum permissible limits of the Indian constitution.
13
You are missing the point, the people of Kashmir dont want Indian constitution or indian boots on the ground, this simple fact need to be understand by the leaders of India, they simply cant massacre the population to occupy the land, they never part of the indian union, and they never going to be part of the India.
Prof.Jai Prakash Sharma, have we people to spit on ur country with ur constitution. y is this always within the ambit of indian constitution. what is so good in that. remember u were till yesterday called animals by the westerners. today u are called barbarous and inhuman animals and dogs by Kashmiris. if u dont trust me go an visit Kashmir once u will find big graffities evry where shop shutters. streets. etc. engraved and written in bold capital letters. "Indian Dogs".
U imprisoned our prime-minister for seeking aazaadi, Freedom from ur unjust rule. so did u to our 125000 youth by killing fr the same reason. i wish ur sons and daughters be subjected to the same treatment and life which Kashmiries are exposed to. to make u understand what is occupation and subjugation.
U imprisoned our prime-minister for seeking aazaadi, Freedom from ur unjust rule. so did u to our 125000 youth by killing fr the same reason. i wish ur sons and daughters be subjected to the same treatment and life which Kashmiries are exposed to. to make u understand what is occupation and subjugation.
1
Prof Sharma where were you when 350,000 Hindhu Kashmiri pandits were driven from the valley to sermonise now. Shame on you. Get you fact right before you write hour messages.
1
Let's separate two things here.
First, Indian troops should stop using shotguns and resort to using rubber bullets to control stone-throwing crowds, and escalate the violence only proportionately. As usual, the foolish babus in South Block do not understand how they lose the battle for media sympathy. The jihadis in Kashmir will use women and children in the front lines in same manner as ISIS.
Second, all the Paksitani sympathizers should understand that the chances of India ceding any part of J&K territory to Pakistan to an independent state is about as real as the South successfully seceding again from the United States. Wars have been fought and won over Kashmir. It does not matter a whit what Muslims in the Valley feel about independence, having driven the Hindus out of the Valley to refugee camps in Jammu and elsewhere. The only way Kashmir will ever be independent is by the destruction of the Indian nation state. I wouldn't hold my breath on that possibility.
After Partition in 1947, million of Muslims and Hindus left their land and moved across the border. The families of both my father and mother were among those refugees. If Kashmiri Muslims are so unhappy in India's rule in Kashmir, they should just pack up and leave, just like my grandparents did from East Pakistan and moved to India.
First, Indian troops should stop using shotguns and resort to using rubber bullets to control stone-throwing crowds, and escalate the violence only proportionately. As usual, the foolish babus in South Block do not understand how they lose the battle for media sympathy. The jihadis in Kashmir will use women and children in the front lines in same manner as ISIS.
Second, all the Paksitani sympathizers should understand that the chances of India ceding any part of J&K territory to Pakistan to an independent state is about as real as the South successfully seceding again from the United States. Wars have been fought and won over Kashmir. It does not matter a whit what Muslims in the Valley feel about independence, having driven the Hindus out of the Valley to refugee camps in Jammu and elsewhere. The only way Kashmir will ever be independent is by the destruction of the Indian nation state. I wouldn't hold my breath on that possibility.
After Partition in 1947, million of Muslims and Hindus left their land and moved across the border. The families of both my father and mother were among those refugees. If Kashmiri Muslims are so unhappy in India's rule in Kashmir, they should just pack up and leave, just like my grandparents did from East Pakistan and moved to India.
86
I dont agree with your logic, what you suggesting that its ok to massacre the whole population just to occupy the land, this mentality will never succeed, this never acceptable to population of Kashmir in last 70 years, and its not going to happen ever.
Only solution for India is to end its occupation and let the people of Kashmir to decide the future, and whatever future decided by the people should be acceptable to India, Pakistan and the whole world. No occupation force ever in the history of this world is succeed, we still seeing the violence in occupied Palestine, occupation never works.
I dont know where you learn your history lessons, the partition of 1947 happen on the basis of religion, the majority of religion cause the land to be part of either Pakistan or India, Kashmir is the Muslim majority state and was part of Pakistan, India occupy it by force, and hence we have this freedom movement going on from last 70 years.
Only solution for India is to end its occupation and let the people of Kashmir to decide the future, and whatever future decided by the people should be acceptable to India, Pakistan and the whole world. No occupation force ever in the history of this world is succeed, we still seeing the violence in occupied Palestine, occupation never works.
I dont know where you learn your history lessons, the partition of 1947 happen on the basis of religion, the majority of religion cause the land to be part of either Pakistan or India, Kashmir is the Muslim majority state and was part of Pakistan, India occupy it by force, and hence we have this freedom movement going on from last 70 years.
Any munition fired from a weapon that uses a gunpowder-like propellant is capable of delivering serious injuries. The Israelis and I believe the British during the Troubles were taken to task for their use of "rubber bullets" which were basically large metal cylinders covered in hard rubber and later I believe switched to plastic. These leave the barrel had hundreds of feet per second and can break bones or even cause death; the protocol is to bounce them off the ground, but as you imagine they get fired at a parallel to ground trajectory hitting people straight on.
For pure crowd dispersion, tear gas seems a better option. If they really need to fire projectiles, paintball-type weapons with a pepper-spray filled projectiles would be less dangerous while having a greater deterrent effect. They'd have a greater useful range, too, allowing the security forces a standoff distance that might allow for de-escalation.
For pure crowd dispersion, tear gas seems a better option. If they really need to fire projectiles, paintball-type weapons with a pepper-spray filled projectiles would be less dangerous while having a greater deterrent effect. They'd have a greater useful range, too, allowing the security forces a standoff distance that might allow for de-escalation.
This comment shows the utter belligerent primitivity of the indian argument: There are no Hindu living there as they have fled, they seemingly would not return but we won´t leave the Muslims there alone, even if the territory is of no use to us, just because we hate Muslims.
Horrible! What else can I say!
4
Could you please suggest any other means to disperse violent crowd decided to kill security personals ?
2
The use of these pellet guns are heart-breaking and criminal. So absolutely sad.
15
Pellet guns hit rioters storming security officers assaulting them with rocks and even grenades! In USA they would have been shot dead by cops. It is sad that these misguided youth are wasting their precious lives in this manner
3
American's Predator Drones are better?
2
There are close to 150 million Muslims currently living in India for centuries, peacefully over centuries of Hindus and Muslim side by side in kingdoms in central India like Hyderabad (think of the Nizam, richest man in the world at the time on the cover of Time magazine in 1937) Yet only a handful of Indian Muslims are members of ISIS (see Atlantic magazine story on this). Maybe US needs to learn from India's centuries of experience dealing with extremism....and living in a pluralistic society that America used to be
29
Genocides and violence between Muslims and Hindus caused the partition of undivided India into three independent countries: Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. This was followed by massive population exchanges. To this day, Pakistan and India are mortal enemies, both armed with nuclear weapons.
If anything, it is India and Pakistan that need to learn from US experience.
If anything, it is India and Pakistan that need to learn from US experience.
1
We have a lot to learn from other cultures, but the use of a pellet gun to control a protesting mob is not one of them. All guns are terrible weapons but, alternatives are many to this barbaric and ultimately counterproductive weapon.
Indo, India has dealt with radicals harshly. Think Khalistanis and only such violent suppression works when jihadis rise as has been happening now and periodically over the last 1300 years.
3
I would love to see peace in the world including Kashmir. Unfortunately , it sits on the civilizational fault line with active and dormant volcanoes of emotion and religion. Allah and army does run the region. If Indian army goes away, it is still Allah supported by Pakistani army. Which unfortunately means living under Shariah for millions of Hindus and Buddhists of the state. Currently the state of Jammu and Kashmir is secular ( and has to abide secular laws) under the Indian constitution. Which eyes of the Kahmiri children do you want to see closed and which eyes do you want to see open ? Islam has given no answers to the non Muslim world on earth and yet they demand every inch of secular territory on earth be subjugated to their tenets. I oppose the pellet guns as much as I oppose the Kashmiri parents who allow their children to throw stones at Indian secular troops.
81
Very well said. Kashmir Freedom means loss of freedom for all its citizens (under Sharia). So, it's quite obvious that for sake of secularism and protection of Buddists and Hindus it should never happen
4
little correction : The state of Jammu and Kashmir has its own Constitution...it's not under Indian Constitution, the Constitution of J&K saysthat Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India.
1
Shouket- And this is what Kashmir has to offer, a "Dr." who besmirches everything that Medical professionals are all about, compassion, and humanity. What a shame!
1
Tragic but odd that the NYT gives such high profile to wounded Kashmiris.
Why does the NYT ignore Palestinians wounded in similar circumstances, giving us only the much much lower (though bad enough) death by Israeli bullet, bomb, missile, etc.?
Dead and wounded, no matter who they are, deserve the same treatment. The NYT's disparate treatment of Kashmiris and Palestinians (high profile coverage of the wounded for one, and no coverage of the wounded, or figures of wounded for the other) merits question not only from its readers, but from the NYT itself about what is going on within it and what does that say about it as a news organization. Even great ones have great faults. Caving in to or being scared off by Israeli pressure to downplay Palestinian casualties, may be many things, fair coverage of the news, it is not.
Why does the NYT ignore Palestinians wounded in similar circumstances, giving us only the much much lower (though bad enough) death by Israeli bullet, bomb, missile, etc.?
Dead and wounded, no matter who they are, deserve the same treatment. The NYT's disparate treatment of Kashmiris and Palestinians (high profile coverage of the wounded for one, and no coverage of the wounded, or figures of wounded for the other) merits question not only from its readers, but from the NYT itself about what is going on within it and what does that say about it as a news organization. Even great ones have great faults. Caving in to or being scared off by Israeli pressure to downplay Palestinian casualties, may be many things, fair coverage of the news, it is not.
47
The Times in just playing catch up on this story. Other outlets had the story in mid-July. Google "Pellet Guns Kashmir Protests."
Meawhile, there's this. “Even Israel does not use pellet guns against Palestinians.” http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/even-israel-does...
And this. "Palestinian Killed by Israeli Soldier Posed No Danger, Commander Testifies" http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/world/middleeast/palestinian-killed-by...
So, embrace your state of victimhood if you want. But there's no vast conspiracy on this.
Have a nice day.
Meawhile, there's this. “Even Israel does not use pellet guns against Palestinians.” http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/even-israel-does...
And this. "Palestinian Killed by Israeli Soldier Posed No Danger, Commander Testifies" http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/world/middleeast/palestinian-killed-by...
So, embrace your state of victimhood if you want. But there's no vast conspiracy on this.
Have a nice day.
What a complete explanation. Debate ended. You, well you, explained? Actually, what exactly did you do? Selective citation as total explanation! I see it as a reggae song.
Kashmir was once a beautiful vacation spot for the sub-continent. Now it has turned into a festering wound for India. It is time to recognize that Kashmir should be allowed a free and fair election and if the people want to join Pakistan so be it. Kashmir has never integrated like the rest of India and will continue to seek alliances with Pakistan. It is time to settle this issue once and for all. There are more important issues to address in India. Hopefully the future would be much more peaceful without Kashmir.
18
How would joining Pakistan be more peaceful for Kashmir when Pakistan itself is one of the mot violent places in the world? How can Kashmir be "more" free than it is already under secular Indian constitution, if it's governed by Sharia law demanded by the Islamic separatists? Elections can not be fair if terrorists have threatened population voting for them
3
Agreed that Kashmir was once a beautiful vacation spot. This was turned into a violent mess during the 90s by the Islamic terrorism that was unleashed by Pakistan. Muslim terrorist drove out Hindus and Buddhists from the region and continue to wreak havoc in the lives of the remaining population. India through its military might has been able to stabilize the region. It is noteworthy that the Islamic terrorism that was nurtured by Pakistan is now consuming Pakistan itself. Kashmir and India will live despite Islamic terrorism. I would worry more about what happens across the border in Pakistan. Will it survive?
4
Kashmir is part of Hindu culture and cannot be removed from it. Muslims have carried out genocide against Hindus for centuries on Kashmir, and now they want a reward for being monsters. How about the Muslims head over the border and live in Pakistan.
6
Why is it that when we read stories of such weapons the reportage inevitably fails to mention the manufacturer?
Same with land mines, same with stun guns, same with pepper spray...
If the purpose of journalism is to truly report so that readers can be informed - and act against such atrocities then why the failure to provide such basic, fundamental information?
Same with land mines, same with stun guns, same with pepper spray...
If the purpose of journalism is to truly report so that readers can be informed - and act against such atrocities then why the failure to provide such basic, fundamental information?
27
What are the Kashmiri terrorists doing parading women and children in the highly disruptive and violent protests against the Central Indian government? Why are the Kashmiri women and children in mobs throwing rocks, Molotov cocktails etc at the Army and Police? Would the Kashmiri terrorists rather that the Army use real bullets and lethal force? Let us stop the biased reporting please.....
90
Ash:
The answer to you question as to why this is happening is very simple: Ordinary men, women and children are trying to express their desire for freedom. Sadly they are brutalized for daring to do so. This just ensures a continuing cycle of repression and resistance to repression. Why not hold a free and fair referendum in Kashmir so that the people have an opportunity to express themselves peacefully?
The answer to you question as to why this is happening is very simple: Ordinary men, women and children are trying to express their desire for freedom. Sadly they are brutalized for daring to do so. This just ensures a continuing cycle of repression and resistance to repression. Why not hold a free and fair referendum in Kashmir so that the people have an opportunity to express themselves peacefully?
1
If you call Kashmiri unarmed youth freedom fighters, terrorists, was Gandhi also a terrorist by your logic when he fought British occupation. If British had used brutal oppression with 1 million soldiers in Civilian areas of Kashmir occupying their schools and colleges, using draconian Armed forces act which gives them license to kill without accountability, your mother India would still be occupied by British and Kashmir would be independent like it was before British left in 1947. You are obviously part of indian propaganda machine spreading lies about Indian Occupied Kashmir, there are lot of Indian coming out in open and demanding freedom of kashmir from occupation. http://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/there-should-be-plebiscite-in...
1
What is Terrorist definition in your country? Any muslims is terrorist? I dont see any terrorist in Kashmir, all I see hundreds of thousands of people protesting the freedom of their nation from occupied force...
1
The Kashmir problem continues to bleed both the locals and the country as a whole. However, if we let the Kashmiris have an independent country without essentially complete Indian support, in a matter of time they will be consumed by the radical Islamists strangling the rest of Pakistan. A strategic, coordinated counter-surveillance strategy with complete closure of the border is nearly impossible in some of the most rugged terrain in the world. This is a difficult problem with no easy solutions; shooting at protestors is definitely not one of them and makes any good way out harder by the day.
Ending the emergency, allowing organized protest days and having a truth and reconciliation commission would be more productive. This will help de-legitimize the fanatics who we have seen, time and again, are willing to set the whole world ablaze with pseudo-religious hatred for their own gain.
If Kashmiris value their children, and if the Indian government does too, they should embrace reconciliation before the Islamists brainwash another generation. ISIS is spreading, and their horrors may reach the subcontinent soon.
Ending the emergency, allowing organized protest days and having a truth and reconciliation commission would be more productive. This will help de-legitimize the fanatics who we have seen, time and again, are willing to set the whole world ablaze with pseudo-religious hatred for their own gain.
If Kashmiris value their children, and if the Indian government does too, they should embrace reconciliation before the Islamists brainwash another generation. ISIS is spreading, and their horrors may reach the subcontinent soon.
21
It is time to draw a permanent border in Kashmir between the two countries. Do the same in the Middle East. India and Israel keep what they currently control. Make it clear to Pakistan and Palestine to accepts that or face the consequences.
When that happens, Terror will have no place to hide, not behind women, not behind children.
When that happens, Terror will have no place to hide, not behind women, not behind children.
12
World is not just pieces of land and real estate one can occupy and draw borders on. There are actual people who live in places where you propose unilateral border building. They may not want borders. They may just want to live in peace without the fear of soldiers shooting their children in their eyes.
21
It is not that simple, and it is not clear that they want to live in peace. Religious minorities in the state have been pushed out, and the indigenous mild Islam has been replaced by Wahabi philosophy.
43
No one went into the houses of these kids and shot at them. What was an 8 year old kid doing at the scene of a violent protest? Who put him there? Who encouraged him to go and pelt stones at the security forces? Kids belong to schools and playgrounds, not to battlefields. Unfortunately, Kashmir has become a haven for terrorists who hide behind women and children.
4
NYT has more credibility and authentication in the world as compare to other media houses , so the publication of atrocities in Kashmir by Indian forces in NYT can present true picture of ramshackle lives of the people in Kashmir, it is a need of time that Kashmir issue should be highlighted and now this long lasted problem should be solved.
16
More people die in the streets of Karachi on a daily basis in clashes between MQM and the Pakistani police. Would you say that it is time that Karachi be given independence?
6
It should be as highlighted as Baluchistan Freedom from Pakistan
4
Why are women and children in the front line throwing stones? They are as guilty as the other side. Here in Karachi rangers are engaged in clearing the Mohajirs. In Baluchistan about 50k are killed and often thrown from helicopters. Gilgit has militants killing Shiites. Why does the Muslims of Kashmir want to join Pakistan? I guess they don't watch tv. The moment they become independent China will
Grab it just like Tibet.
Grab it just like Tibet.
1
American's really dont understand Kashmir , if it was so easy so many presidents couldn't have failed resolving it.
Anyway US is know to create chaos whereever they go so they be better away from this place
Anyway US is know to create chaos whereever they go so they be better away from this place
4
How is a militant leader not a terrorist? Burhan Wani was a terrorist. Kashmir has its own set of problems especially with the use of pellets which Ellen and Hari have done a remarkable job covering. However would have liked them to cover the other side about the damage caused to the security forces due to stone pelting and how it has maimed security forces for life as well.
37
Modi IS a terrorist -- lets deal with him as such.
someone terrorist is someone freedom fighter, it all depend which party of this conflict you are part, if you are indian militant then any Muslim is terrorist, but for rest of the world, he is freedom fighter who is fighting to free his land from occupation.
Thank you NYT and Ellen Barry for reporting on the Kashmir situation. The world is full of conflict and in the fatigue with such mindless violence globally, the systematic violence inflicted on the Kashmiri people remains unseen. To top it, the Indian govt has imposed a communication blockade on Kashmir. For the last 50 days, the Internet is blocked, phone services have been cut off, and even local newspapers have had their copies confiscated for reporting on the state violence. Kashmiris have hardly an opportunity to tell their story to the world.
India may be a democracy, but Kashmiris have only seen one face of India: more than half a million Indian soldiers armed to the teeth, and protected from prosecution for human rights violations under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. For the lasts 26 years without break, Kashmiris have lived under the military emergency. In demographic terms, every eighth person in Kashmir is an armed Indian soldier who operates beyond the pale of civilian law.
Given the polarized world opinion, many outside tend to see Kashmir from the prism of Muslim vs Hindu logic. Reality is most Kashmiris are followers of local Sufi traditions of Islam, and like any oppressed people around the world demand the same rights that make human life dignified. On paper, Indian constitution promises Kashmiris citizenship rights, but in reality all Kashmiris see is state violence.
India may be a democracy, but Kashmiris have only seen one face of India: more than half a million Indian soldiers armed to the teeth, and protected from prosecution for human rights violations under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. For the lasts 26 years without break, Kashmiris have lived under the military emergency. In demographic terms, every eighth person in Kashmir is an armed Indian soldier who operates beyond the pale of civilian law.
Given the polarized world opinion, many outside tend to see Kashmir from the prism of Muslim vs Hindu logic. Reality is most Kashmiris are followers of local Sufi traditions of Islam, and like any oppressed people around the world demand the same rights that make human life dignified. On paper, Indian constitution promises Kashmiris citizenship rights, but in reality all Kashmiris see is state violence.
50
Your statements are not accurate. Kashmir was peaceful for decades, until Pakistan-funded Islamists, fresh from victory in Afghanistan against the Russians, and with nothing else to do, infiltrated into Indian Kashmir in large numbers. More than 200,000 members of the Hindu minority, including my family, were driven out of the valley. Christians have been oppressed, and the Sikhs have been threatened into quiet submission. The "peaceful" raise slogans in favor of " Nizam-e-Mustafa", Islamic/Sharia law. The Shia, Gujjar, Bakkarwal, Hindu, Christian and Buddhist segments of the population have nothing to do with what is a predominantly urban Sunni Muslim uprising.
62
Sufi Islam is disappearing from the valley, as it is being replaced by Wahabi Sunni fundamentalism. In the last 26 years, more and more women have taken to the veil, movie theaters have been forced to close, and the consumption of liquor has been discouraged. Out of respect for the Hindus, the local Muslims ( historically) did not slaughter cows for meat. That practice is now more common after terrorists have taken over the valley. I belong to the ethnic Hindu minority that was hounded out of the area by radical Islamists, and I've actually been to this beautiful but violent region many times. I really wish more people visited a hotspot or talked to stakeholders before forming an opinion based on their online reading.
6
It is well known fallacy that current Kashmir violence is local. When there are 300 terrorist training camps in Pakistan aimed at infiltrating in India, your naive comments will not hold water in today's world.
5
Oh boy!
Sensitive subject...Indians and Pakistanis are going to come out of the woodwork for this one. I guess I came out too!
In any case, Pakistan really needs to start taking care of its populace, and if it keeps interfering, time to dismember it one more time.
Balochistan is 43% of Pakistan's land mass.
The atrocities the Pakistani state is committing there is no less than what it alleges India does in Kashmir.
Really, Pakistan needs to mind its own business. In the fifty years of its independence, I really can't come up with one net positive thing that country of 140 million people has done. Is there a Nobel prize for fomenting trouble, for being a pesky neighbor?
I will be the first to admit India has serious issues, mean serious, but we are hopefully moving in the right direction.
Sensitive subject...Indians and Pakistanis are going to come out of the woodwork for this one. I guess I came out too!
In any case, Pakistan really needs to start taking care of its populace, and if it keeps interfering, time to dismember it one more time.
Balochistan is 43% of Pakistan's land mass.
The atrocities the Pakistani state is committing there is no less than what it alleges India does in Kashmir.
Really, Pakistan needs to mind its own business. In the fifty years of its independence, I really can't come up with one net positive thing that country of 140 million people has done. Is there a Nobel prize for fomenting trouble, for being a pesky neighbor?
I will be the first to admit India has serious issues, mean serious, but we are hopefully moving in the right direction.
68
Not sure anything you said has anything to do with the article or Kashmir.
The article was written by the NYT and not Pakistan.
The article was written by the NYT and not Pakistan.
5
Pakistan has no business talking about Kashmir. Kashmir legally agreed to be part of India.
Pakistan wanted Kashmir, didn't get it, and so you guys need to buzz off.
Unless you're a Kashmiri, which population-odds suggest you're not, time to be more productive elsewhere. 140 millions mouths to feed. Home-grown terrorists to be channeled to improving society. You have a lot of work.
India screwed up on Kashmir, and we are trying to fix it.
Pakistan wanted Kashmir, didn't get it, and so you guys need to buzz off.
Unless you're a Kashmiri, which population-odds suggest you're not, time to be more productive elsewhere. 140 millions mouths to feed. Home-grown terrorists to be channeled to improving society. You have a lot of work.
India screwed up on Kashmir, and we are trying to fix it.
19
What you propose is extremely dangerous! Do you for one second think that a nuclear power would allow itself to be "dismembered" ?
The only solution to the Kashmir problem is a UN supervised binding referendum to allow the people of Kashmir to exercise their fundamental right of self-determination.
The only solution to the Kashmir problem is a UN supervised binding referendum to allow the people of Kashmir to exercise their fundamental right of self-determination.
8
Expect a lot of people providing excuses for the mutilation of young children protesting their right to self determination. Mr. Obama bears part of the blame here for his embrace of the radical Modi regime.
14
What kind of political movement asks it's 8 and 10-year-old children to throw stones at the police and the army? The parents of these kids are paid money by secessionist politicians to send these kids onto the streets. This is not a credible political movement. If India was such a bad place that the politicians of the valley send little children to the streets to get blinded, why are their own children living in comfort in other parts of India?
24
oh really, this is what is publishing in Indian news media? whynot set the trial of whole population on sedition charges?
Human rights r taking precedence in kashmir over the maintainence and up keep of law and order andsecuriyty of kasmiri people.wHere it will lead. India and its political niceties vis a vis modi and rajnath,, has become a million dollar question.pellet guns r not for killing the innoscants but to dispurse a lethal crowd using children and exploitedyouth by the miscreants
2
Heartbreaking, what thugs will do for money.
2
"Thugs" is pretty clever. They're from very nearby, the Thug or Thuggee sect that worshiped Kali and was very comfortable with assassinations.
3
Glad you watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Tell us more.
14
Sure thing, Harmon. The Thugs were very real, and similar sects of people taking glee in killing have existed in many cultures under various names. Also Harrison Ford, from all those whom I know to have interacted with him, acts rudely to strangers without remorse.
I hope the readers of Ms. Berry’s article, especially those in the US, can appreciate the fact that in a democracy the police and armies have to work with extreme restraint. The US troops fighting ISIS are asked to stand down when the ISIS fighters hide behind civilians. The citizens of democracies want quick and effective solutions while playing by the civil rules which the ISIS and Pakistan in the US and India situation respectively never follow. The “boy loses eyesight” story, sad as it is, is never complete unless writers says who is telling the boys to be in the street. Also lost is the story of the war lords and war masters, sitting across the border, who send children to protest and blow up and then sit back and eat their kabobs and enjoy the show. Both US and India can be more effective in fighting terror instigated mobs if they do not fight with their hands tied behind by their commitment to least possible harm to the innocent bystanders. There is a limit to patience even for democracies, and if push comes to shove the parties instigating trouble could be sent an eye opener.
55
Why should boys be not in the street? Why should they be blinded, maimed, killed for protesting? Why is it so easy to justify unarmed people's killings?
8
If boys in the street are just playing cricket or soccer then what you are saying is correct. But if the "boys" throw stones , burn cars, set fire to police stations what do you suggest be done? There are peaceful protest and then there are ones where destroying public property is the intent. The Indian army has shown extreme restraints. There is no way to justify unarmed people's killing. Did you rad the article, the mobs are throwing stones and Malotov cocktails. Be mindful that in spite of intense and concerted provocation, there is no Tianamen Square as in China, Tahrir Square as in Egypt or other extreme measures. Unless you have a better solution than sayying let the unruly mob have there way, please do suggest. If you are so interested, check how Pakistan army deals in Pakistan occupied Kashmir or Baluchistan.
13
I could not agree with this author more. Real freedom fighters like Nelson Mandela, Aung San Su Kyi and Gandhi spent decades in prison and endured personal physical harm to bring freedom to their peoples.I cannot imagine any other place in the world where a freedom struggle consisted of sending young children onto the streets, and using them as shield for adults.
11
Yes,on the face of to,it looks tragic.
Now,lets get a reality check here.
The Indian government imposes a curfew-that means no one should be out in the street,let alone throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks at the security forces.
You are talking mobs of thousands of people bent on mayhem and violence.
They are no easy solutions here.
If the security forces fire with live ammunition,there would be DEATHS.
(I am thinking Israel).
Also,remember the background here,the riots started after a known terrorist was killed by the security forces.
While one can legitimately argue the underlying grievances,attacking the police will not generally result in anything desirable.
I can guarantee that if a mob of thousand plus people starts attacking the police in any US city,the cops will not offer ice cream in return.
Now,lets get a reality check here.
The Indian government imposes a curfew-that means no one should be out in the street,let alone throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks at the security forces.
You are talking mobs of thousands of people bent on mayhem and violence.
They are no easy solutions here.
If the security forces fire with live ammunition,there would be DEATHS.
(I am thinking Israel).
Also,remember the background here,the riots started after a known terrorist was killed by the security forces.
While one can legitimately argue the underlying grievances,attacking the police will not generally result in anything desirable.
I can guarantee that if a mob of thousand plus people starts attacking the police in any US city,the cops will not offer ice cream in return.
101
I like to think that I am capable of adding some comment or statement to almost any news story that appears in the Times, but the horror and brutality of this one defeats me.
22
Dear A. Stanton,
Aha, but you did manage to add a comment. But look on the bright side, the horror and brutality of this story is far lesser than the horror of, right now, Syria, North Korea, Somalia, Yemen, and even Kashmir twenty, forty, or sixty years ago (it was fairly peaceful under the Brits but slaughters did go on even then).
Also the Jammu-Kashmir thing is what India and Pakistan always go to war over, and next time it could go nuclear, making this look like no big deal at all.
Aha, but you did manage to add a comment. But look on the bright side, the horror and brutality of this story is far lesser than the horror of, right now, Syria, North Korea, Somalia, Yemen, and even Kashmir twenty, forty, or sixty years ago (it was fairly peaceful under the Brits but slaughters did go on even then).
Also the Jammu-Kashmir thing is what India and Pakistan always go to war over, and next time it could go nuclear, making this look like no big deal at all.
5
Learn more facts about the situation (than the NYT provides) and maybe your traumatized reaction will suddenly find itself much calmed down.
8
Unlike U.S. drone strikes huh? Those never hit civilians.
4
India needs to take the high road in Kasmir. Pakistan is a loser nation in a downward spiral, like most Muslim nations while India is the world's largest democracy. Stop this fighting. If the Kasmiris want to be Indian they will, over time. Why would any people chose to be Muslim?
26
The 'loser nation' partnered with the US military to fight and defeat the Soviet empire. It was then abandoned by the political elite of this nation. 30 years ago it was the flavor of the month in the US congress.
8
The elite's of America supported Pakistan after the Afghan war; however, the military elite of Pakistan took all the money.
Gandhi said that there are many causes I would die for, none that I would kill for. The Kashmiri people have died for their cause of self-determination. The Indian government and its military has killed 70,000 Kashmiris since 1989 according to amnesty international. The Kashmiri people's suffering will continue until the people of India decide to heed their great founders advice.
23
What utter rubbish!
Hundreds of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris have been ethnically cleansed from ancestral homes and sent off to live in tent encampments.
The Indian government floods Kashmir with more aid than any other region of India.
And the 70,000 dead you cite consist mostly of victims of terrorism (both civilians and security forces).
Kindly separate facts from fantasy.
Hundreds of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris have been ethnically cleansed from ancestral homes and sent off to live in tent encampments.
The Indian government floods Kashmir with more aid than any other region of India.
And the 70,000 dead you cite consist mostly of victims of terrorism (both civilians and security forces).
Kindly separate facts from fantasy.
68
The Kashmiri people are asking for nothing more than the fundamental right to determine their own future. Given all the aid that India has provided to the Kashmiri people you would expect a tremendous goodwill from the Kashmiris towards their benefactors. Then why not allow an internationally supervised referendum so that the Kashmiris can exercise their fundamental right of self-determination? In view of the tremendous aid the Kashmiris have received from India there should be no fear regarding the results of a free & fair referendum.
6
Just like we don't let Texas split off into a different country, Indians don't let Kashmir split off into its own country, Turks don't let Kurds split off into their own country and on and on. Countries don't remain countries if every individual or group has the right to run off and set up their own country whenever they wish.
BTW, just taking the history of India, there have been so many groups in India, that in its brief period of independence, have wanted to set up their own country, that had each of them been allowed to do so, "India" would now likely be the size of Monaco. Are those who were once so eager, often violently so, to set up their own country better off for still being part of India? Don't ask me, have them tell you in no uncertain terms.
BTW, just taking the history of India, there have been so many groups in India, that in its brief period of independence, have wanted to set up their own country, that had each of them been allowed to do so, "India" would now likely be the size of Monaco. Are those who were once so eager, often violently so, to set up their own country better off for still being part of India? Don't ask me, have them tell you in no uncertain terms.
4
India has had 70 years to take care of the Kashmir people. After years of rape, murder and other human rights violations international community needs to act. We rightfully criticize countries like Iran and China and yet turn a blind eye here.
Scotland has had a vote to leave the British Union, Quebec had a vote, Brexit etc. Most developed democracies allow this. If India wants to be part of the modern world it will need to allow Kashmir people the right to leave the Indian Union.
Scotland has had a vote to leave the British Union, Quebec had a vote, Brexit etc. Most developed democracies allow this. If India wants to be part of the modern world it will need to allow Kashmir people the right to leave the Indian Union.
20
Lets give Balochistan a vote too...While at it, how about parts of Kashmir that Pakistan and China control?
How about the Uighurs in China? Tibet?
Dude, you're on a slippery slope here.
Hopefully in 100 years, the populace of India, Pakistan and China will be mature and secure enough that these discussions and votes will take place, as we see in Europe.
But not in our lifetimes!
How about the Uighurs in China? Tibet?
Dude, you're on a slippery slope here.
Hopefully in 100 years, the populace of India, Pakistan and China will be mature and secure enough that these discussions and votes will take place, as we see in Europe.
But not in our lifetimes!
19
Seems like you recognize that India is not a developed democracy.
I did do some research on Balochistan, since it keeps getting mentioned.
It is not located anywhere near Kashmir. It had a vote in 1948. It has an insurgency (bombs going off in markets etc) that started right after the current regime was installed in 2001 and right after India opened 5 consulates in Afghanistan, right along the border with Pakistan. An Indian military personal was recently caught in Balochistan creating mischief and terrorist attacks in Pakistan.
I did do some research on Balochistan, since it keeps getting mentioned.
It is not located anywhere near Kashmir. It had a vote in 1948. It has an insurgency (bombs going off in markets etc) that started right after the current regime was installed in 2001 and right after India opened 5 consulates in Afghanistan, right along the border with Pakistan. An Indian military personal was recently caught in Balochistan creating mischief and terrorist attacks in Pakistan.
4
Glad you put the effort into online research, which is the usual source of wisdom of most people who write comments online nowadays. Baluchistan was not with Pakistan at the time of the partition, it was simply annexed by the Pakistanis. They have never wanted to be a part of that rogue nation. If the residents of a small Muslim majority enclave in a secular, Hindu majority India have the "right" to self-determination, why don't the people of Baluchistan have the same? Until a couple of decades ago, even the people of Texas would've separated from the US if given a chance. Would you have supported that? Kashmir has been a part of India for thousands of years, and it's Islamic history is less than a few hundred years old. Going by your logic, in a few hundred years, the entire southern third of the United States should be allowed to form its own Latino nation, simply because of demographic changes.
4
Why were children in the line of fire? Who put them there? Who was throwing Molatov cocktails and grenades from behind them? Who was controlling and directing the mobs? There is a leader and it is the Pakistan secret service, ISI. Ask any Afghan vet about this "ally" and they will scream bloody murder.
The kids were intentionally placed there by people whose own children live in America, UK, Malaysia and other safe havens. They were just cannon fodder for them so that such news items can be written to further the cause of installing another Islamic state/caliphate in South Asia.
The kids were intentionally placed there by people whose own children live in America, UK, Malaysia and other safe havens. They were just cannon fodder for them so that such news items can be written to further the cause of installing another Islamic state/caliphate in South Asia.
132
"The kids were intentionally placed there by people whose own children live in America..." And four people recommended it! This is why political problems persist in the world. Some people blind others, some remain blind to the brutality
3
Well stated sir!
If the only measure of the validity of a comment is the number of recommendations then mine has 101 and yours has 3. :)
Having said that please explain why is the policeman's life less important than that of a rioter. The police fire on them in self-defence. Each incident of firing is probed by the Indian Human Rights Commission (yes, it is there and it is independent of the govt.). If it is found that the firing happened for any reason other than self-defense action is taken.
Now let's look at the US. Videos have shown how kids have been shot in the back by the police while they were running away and contrast that with a mob of 1000 people rushing you threatening to kill you.
After this, if you want to change your comment, please feel free to do so.
Having said that please explain why is the policeman's life less important than that of a rioter. The police fire on them in self-defence. Each incident of firing is probed by the Indian Human Rights Commission (yes, it is there and it is independent of the govt.). If it is found that the firing happened for any reason other than self-defense action is taken.
Now let's look at the US. Videos have shown how kids have been shot in the back by the police while they were running away and contrast that with a mob of 1000 people rushing you threatening to kill you.
After this, if you want to change your comment, please feel free to do so.
1
Shooting out someone's eyes should be considered a "crime against humanity."
However, given that most permanent members of the UN Security Council commit such crimes, including the U.S. and Russia, there is and will never be any sanctions against the criminals which commit such acts.
In fact, the U.S. is one of now a major country in terms of extrajudicial executions by the police.
However, given that most permanent members of the UN Security Council commit such crimes, including the U.S. and Russia, there is and will never be any sanctions against the criminals which commit such acts.
In fact, the U.S. is one of now a major country in terms of extrajudicial executions by the police.
11
Given the NYT's obsession with guns, one would expect least one editor on staff who has a little bit of familiarity with the most basic firearms knowledge. Although the Indian press seems to refer to these as 'pellet guns', they are shotguns, probably the most common type of firearm in the world.
One does not expect expertise from this source but nor does one expect a supposedly civilized government to shoot children in the face.
One does not expect expertise from this source but nor does one expect a supposedly civilized government to shoot children in the face.
4
Dear JBR,
Sorry but you're wrong. These look like shotguns but they fire an actual pellet, generally rubber. A real shotgun to the face would leave nothing on the front of the skull and be almost certainly lethal.
In any case, throwing stones at armed men has its consequences, and these pellet guns are better than using AK-47's on the crowd instead.
Sorry but you're wrong. These look like shotguns but they fire an actual pellet, generally rubber. A real shotgun to the face would leave nothing on the front of the skull and be almost certainly lethal.
In any case, throwing stones at armed men has its consequences, and these pellet guns are better than using AK-47's on the crowd instead.
6
I think you are presupposing.
Dan - I looked at a number of Indian press articles before writing that comment. All refer to guns shooting hundreds of small lead pellets, and described them using the usual nomenclature for shot size (earlier they were using size 4 (larger) shot and were surprised when they killed people. They then changed to number 8 (smaller) shot which merely blind the victim). I think this is an error in India repeated by the NYT for lack of fact checking. None of the article I found suggested that they are using rubber bullets, a completely different projectile you refer to.
And yes, a very close shotgun blast would remove most of a person's head but at any distance the shot spreads out, hence the ruined eyes.
And yes, a very close shotgun blast would remove most of a person's head but at any distance the shot spreads out, hence the ruined eyes.
2
Well I don't know what to tell these poor people, except maybe, get out of that ridiculous constant simmering warzone Jammu-Kashmir, leave it to the religious/tribal fanatics, and move deeper into India or out of the area completely (I wouldn't advise anyone to move into Pakistan).
Or failing that, avoid crowds of protesters. I can't see many other options, because the Jammu/Kashmir problem is one of those insoluble ones resulting from tribal differences, and the only thing that will cure it is total depopulation of the region.
Or failing that, avoid crowds of protesters. I can't see many other options, because the Jammu/Kashmir problem is one of those insoluble ones resulting from tribal differences, and the only thing that will cure it is total depopulation of the region.
6
Kashmiri's want to live in the land of their forefathers.
3
Dear KZ,
You can't always get what you want, right?
You can't always get what you want, right?
2
You mean might is right. That's where terrorism starts.
2
The journalist agrees that these are no peaceful protests when the article says any government official caught in the protest will be burnt alive. So how exactly do you deal with terrorism?
Imagine 9/11 daily for 35 years - that's exactly what kashmir "freedom" struggle is to India. And any one who says not to blame saudi money for terrorism should look at how that jihad money to build radical mosques began flowing to India in the early 70s and kashmir caught fire a decade later. Elsewhere in the world where the money began to flow in the early 2000's we begin to see the effects now. How long till nytimes publishes something on that?
Imagine 9/11 daily for 35 years - that's exactly what kashmir "freedom" struggle is to India. And any one who says not to blame saudi money for terrorism should look at how that jihad money to build radical mosques began flowing to India in the early 70s and kashmir caught fire a decade later. Elsewhere in the world where the money began to flow in the early 2000's we begin to see the effects now. How long till nytimes publishes something on that?
15
No ones life or eyesight is worth a piece of dirt. Just leave, India won't back down and Pakistan can't. Enjoy your life, leave.
5
Leave for where? You can't be serious? Looking at the plight of refugees from other countries why on earth would someone want to become a refugee?
The only peaceful solution is to allow the Kashmiri people to express their will via an internationally supervised referendum regarding the status of Kashmir. Such a referendum should be held in all of Jammu & Kashmir including areas controlled by Pakistan
The only peaceful solution is to allow the Kashmiri people to express their will via an internationally supervised referendum regarding the status of Kashmir. Such a referendum should be held in all of Jammu & Kashmir including areas controlled by Pakistan
5
This is an Indian Jihad fueled by Pakistan. Muslims in Kashmir, an Indian state, have same rights as Hindus, and even more than their brethren in Pakistan. Their violent sedition movement can't be tolerated anymore than if we would if Texas wanted to secede and used violence to achieve it.
There are legitimate ways to voice the grievances but Kashmiri religious zealots, with encouragement and support from Pakistan, use domestic terrorism to hurt democratic India.
There are legitimate ways to voice the grievances but Kashmiri religious zealots, with encouragement and support from Pakistan, use domestic terrorism to hurt democratic India.
102
The problem sir is that one man's sedition is another's struggle for freedom! Our own country was born after a struggle for freedom against British rule. Do you call that sedition as well?
Thankyou :) you make my life easy, if texas want to secede, they dont have to use violence? they need to get enough signatures, and its all done, this is what happen in democracy, you are not going to put marines in Texas to occupy it, and traumatized the Texans?
This is exactly what Kashmir wants, put the plebiscite and let the ppl of Kashmir decide their future...
This is exactly what Kashmir wants, put the plebiscite and let the ppl of Kashmir decide their future...
Sure. So, why did the civil war happen?
1
It would have been nice if Ellen Barry were to research in depth and then write this report, unfortunately not so. It's true that pellet guns have caused serious damage to the civilians especially in the eyes but why send small children in groups for throwing stones at police continuously as a means of protest whatever may be the nature of grievance. What police are supposed to do, throw back flowers at them.
Why doesn't Ellen Barry and others understand that children are being used as a shield by the terrorists in all parts of the globe. Ellen Barry has mentioned that these stone throwing children didn't have any political leaders, which is completely false. Pakistan has been indulging in all sorts of illegal activities in Jammu and Kashmir, especially Kashmir since 1947 since it couldn't get Kashmir on platter.
Pakistan being a rogue state never wants peace with India especially in Kashmir, that's the root of the problem. However those ruled Jammu and Kashmir also help didn't improve matters being totally corrupt as in the case of rest of India.
Common man irrespective of caste and religion is struggling everywhere in India mainly because of huge population, lack of proper education and corrupt set up and same is true in Kashmir even.
Why doesn't Ellen Barry and others understand that children are being used as a shield by the terrorists in all parts of the globe. Ellen Barry has mentioned that these stone throwing children didn't have any political leaders, which is completely false. Pakistan has been indulging in all sorts of illegal activities in Jammu and Kashmir, especially Kashmir since 1947 since it couldn't get Kashmir on platter.
Pakistan being a rogue state never wants peace with India especially in Kashmir, that's the root of the problem. However those ruled Jammu and Kashmir also help didn't improve matters being totally corrupt as in the case of rest of India.
Common man irrespective of caste and religion is struggling everywhere in India mainly because of huge population, lack of proper education and corrupt set up and same is true in Kashmir even.
119
Horrible way to treat the citizens you serve. Just like our country - the USA, who acts like the KGB by spying on everyone who does not have better laws and lawyers. Protests are democratic. So is privacy.
4
equal comparison is an absurd overstatement
4
@Pony, Please, for once, try to understand other countries' problems on their own terms, especially the one at hand.
1
A terrible story. My sympathies go out to everyone involved.
Then I think of my own country, where the citizenry are armed to the teeth with guns, not stones, and apparently a great number of them are easily swayed and inflamed by a demagogue.
Then I think of my own country, where the citizenry are armed to the teeth with guns, not stones, and apparently a great number of them are easily swayed and inflamed by a demagogue.
19
True, every side deserves sympathy for the trouble they are thrown into, and hopefully they can do something as well to get out of it. That said, comparing this situation in India with the U.S. misses the point totally. Your sympathy must be a very shallow one because you don't really understand the problem faraway.
1
My comment is not a comparison with the heartbreaking situation in India.
My comment is a forewarning of what could happen here, with deadlier results, because the citizens here are armed and many of the police have the use of decommissioned military vehicles and weapons.
My comment is a forewarning of what could happen here, with deadlier results, because the citizens here are armed and many of the police have the use of decommissioned military vehicles and weapons.
Why are these called "pellet guns"? They appear to look and behave like shotguns in every way.
29
Dear Richard Rollo,
It's because they are pellet guns, firing a single rubber pellet. A shotgun blast could never put out an eye and leave someone alive.
It's because they are pellet guns, firing a single rubber pellet. A shotgun blast could never put out an eye and leave someone alive.
Whoops, my bad. Some of these 'non-lethal' crowd control weapons fire single rubber pellets. These apparently fire a canister of small pellets which spread out. Still, they're a whole lot less lethal than shotguns.
Why do people keep posting this comment? Learn something about guns, especially since there are 300 million of them in America.
1
Kashmir was not part of India when it got freedom and post partition it was rules by Prince Hari Singh until raiders invaded which compelled King to take assistance from India.
India exploited the situation and compelled king to sign instrument of.
It is a different issue that people were promised that after normalisation people will be asked to decide as which way they will go,either with Pakistan or with India.
But promised had never been accomplished this current unrest is cause of this deception. Kashmiris have never exercised the impression of belonging with India till date.