Would Christians no longer celebrate Christmas, or Easter, if there was a major terrorist attack on that date? If not, then they have NO RIGHT to keep others from celebrating their own holidays.
4
Thank you Brenda! Eid Mubarak :)
1
How ridiculous. If you make the claim Muslims are not terrorists then the overlap of dates is not an issue. Perhaps Muslim religious leaders can offer a moment of silence for the lives lost on 9/11.
8
The idea the Muslims should "move" their important religious holiday so it doesn't fall on Sept 11 is to say "go ahead we're so tolerant we are OK with being Muslim, as long as you change what being Muslim is". It is a lot like saying there shouldn't be a Mosque on Park Place because it's near the World Trade Center site, even though the prayer centers that already existed in that neighborhood were overcrowded by Muslims having the audacity to live and work in the area, and even though there is a Muslim Prayer Center in the Pentagon which no one complains about. You can't say you don't blame all Muslims for 9/11 when you define 9/11 as Islam. If you do, go ahead and say it. If that's you, own it.
6
If that is the day their holiday falls, this is America, let them celebrate it, it's their right. A founding freedom is one for religion. As for Muslim collective guilt, join the club with us white folk. As for most Muslims only wishing to live peacefully I truly believe most here do, most not all. A whole swath of ME Muslims hates us and our culture and totally applauds what happened on 9/11. Am I supposed to brush that aside? 317 million people live in the ME even if only half hate us that's over 100 million. And even the remaining followers do their countries allow different religions to practice? Do they support women and gay rights? Or do they persecute and even kill those non-believers. Is that a peaceful religion? And never mind the rest of the Muslim world. Polls indicate 70% of the entire Muslim word believe in Shia law. Really? I don't think our Freedoms would do too well under those religious laws.
Muslims in this country have very very little to fear in following their religion give me a break. Let me go try and celebrate my Christianity in theirs! Now there's an article for the NYT's.
Celebrate your holiday for crying out loud and get use to what countless other groups who've never done anything to anyone but who are constantly reminded of things we've never done nor would ever condone.
As I said yes most Muslims want to live in peace, here perhaps, but not the rest of the Muslim word. And it's about God not politics, that's the problem.
Muslims in this country have very very little to fear in following their religion give me a break. Let me go try and celebrate my Christianity in theirs! Now there's an article for the NYT's.
Celebrate your holiday for crying out loud and get use to what countless other groups who've never done anything to anyone but who are constantly reminded of things we've never done nor would ever condone.
As I said yes most Muslims want to live in peace, here perhaps, but not the rest of the Muslim word. And it's about God not politics, that's the problem.
8
Honestly said! Humanity needs to shed such evil myths as fathers murdering their sons to please a god and to stand erect as thinking and free beings. No amount of celebratory self-flagellation will erase he reality of 9/11.
4
If eid does fall on the 11th, then it could serve as a bridge. The Muslim community should use it to teach non Muslims who Muslims are. I think those who hate will be pleasantly surprised! Let's celebrate going forward and use the date to remark on solidarity rather than division!!
7
While I cannot really emphasize as a Muslim (I'm a Catholic), I do support them celebrating a religious holiday. My own faith's holidays fall on different days depending on the year, and that's out of their control. I do think encouraging "faith exchanges" where friends of different faiths invite each other to their masses and gatherings is a good idea to encourage tolerance and healthy discussion.
3
Anyone but me notice that all religion does is create problems? Why the nyt is rife with it daily....! Someone tell me what good is it?
6
I like how we are willing to bend over backwards everytime to say that Muslims should not be blamed for the actions of an extreme minority of their group.
However, at the same time, we also bend over backwards to blame all white people for the actions of a small minority of our ancestors 200 years ago. All white people are told to feel the shame of people who may not even be our ancestors. Very few Irish people owned slaves, and were actively discriminated against during the 19th century by other whites. I'm Irish, and my family was dying of famine in Ireland right before the Civil War. None of my ancestors owned slaves, but it's still my eternal shame as a white person connected to random people in the past by only the color of my skin.
Don't get me wrong, I believe systemic racism is alive in America and needs to be fixed. However, I'm not a rich white priviledged jerk who benefited from the money my ancestors made with slaves. I'm a poor white Transgender woman who has very little priviledge due to being Transgender.
The narrative is this. White people ALL share a collective guilt no matter their culture, ancestry, level of priviledge, or when our families immigrated. Muslims, however, should not be made to feel any guilt in regards to the actions of a minority of their population right now, and if you suggest otherwise you are a bigot. Those narratives don't seem to square with me.
I believe in the Muslim narrative. I think that is the right narrative.
However, at the same time, we also bend over backwards to blame all white people for the actions of a small minority of our ancestors 200 years ago. All white people are told to feel the shame of people who may not even be our ancestors. Very few Irish people owned slaves, and were actively discriminated against during the 19th century by other whites. I'm Irish, and my family was dying of famine in Ireland right before the Civil War. None of my ancestors owned slaves, but it's still my eternal shame as a white person connected to random people in the past by only the color of my skin.
Don't get me wrong, I believe systemic racism is alive in America and needs to be fixed. However, I'm not a rich white priviledged jerk who benefited from the money my ancestors made with slaves. I'm a poor white Transgender woman who has very little priviledge due to being Transgender.
The narrative is this. White people ALL share a collective guilt no matter their culture, ancestry, level of priviledge, or when our families immigrated. Muslims, however, should not be made to feel any guilt in regards to the actions of a minority of their population right now, and if you suggest otherwise you are a bigot. Those narratives don't seem to square with me.
I believe in the Muslim narrative. I think that is the right narrative.
11
My ancestors were trudging along dusty roads next to their donkeys, finding their fields, and picking olives right up to the 1910s, when my grandparents all came to America and still were poor -- only instead of picking olives, they were washing dishes, polishing brass, doing piece-work, and opening clams.
"Privilege" doesn't have a "d."
"Privilege" doesn't have a "d."
As a rabid atheist I think this is an excellent opportunity to demonstrate the principle of secular pluralism upon which America was founded. Muslims should observe Eid al-Adha openly, in peace and without fear. Non-Muslims should let them observe it, and defend them if necessary from any unenlightened countrymen.
12
shows we have more to fear from the right wing lunatic fringe than the Muslims.
1
TV, radio, paper, and any and all means possible need to be used so that all understand Muslims have a sacred holiday that just happens to fall on 9/11.
8
9/11 was a tragedy and as a Muslim American i will tone down my celebrations.
My father has been a civil servant for 30 years - i fondly remember the stories he has shared with me of how pharma executives would try to present him with 'gift's to gain city business, but he flatly rejected each time. I plan to follow in his footsteps.
Eid will be a time for me and my family to reflect and ask ourselves what can we do to contribute to the betterment of America?
PS: Muslim American's have the best chicken/rice recipes
My father has been a civil servant for 30 years - i fondly remember the stories he has shared with me of how pharma executives would try to present him with 'gift's to gain city business, but he flatly rejected each time. I plan to follow in his footsteps.
Eid will be a time for me and my family to reflect and ask ourselves what can we do to contribute to the betterment of America?
PS: Muslim American's have the best chicken/rice recipes
11
It is the name of Islam that 2,996 people were killed on September 11, 2001, and many still mourn the deaths of their loved ones and friends. The attacks in the name of Islam have continued in the US, and we are reminded of it every time we enter an airport. My father lost friends in the Towers and never wanted to set foot again in the city he was raised, worked in, and loved. I am sure I am not alone when I say I am more concerned about an Islamist attack in our country than if someone's feeling are hurt.
10
I really don't believe that mossad was asleep that day. BTW, the US has been killing Muslims for at least 70 years on a regular, hi volume basis, a hellava lot more than 3000. Maybe you want to tone down your X'mas celebrations. Huh?
1
How does ostracizing and persecuting a minority community make you safer? That's neither American nor moral.
5
35,000 Americans are killed by fellow non Muslim Americans each year, sorry I don't buy what you are selling, fear of Muslims.
6
What we should do is form a protective human chain in front of every Mosque in New York City so they can pray in peace. I'm going to look into this in my neighborhood. My Muslim neighbors deserve to be able to worship in peace and quiet.
16
really? and how have you protected your Jewish neighbors, as antisemitic activity has skyrocketed? formed a ring around any synagogues lately? written the NYT about the disgusting antisemitism on NY college campuses? of course you haven't.
3
The Jewish community is actually quite protected, much of the hate towards them has been dissolved after ww2. They can definitely take care of themselves. On the other hand the Muslim community is relatively weak and is suffering from public humiliation every day. Protect both, but don't bring a moot argument to this discussion.
Standing up for others takes practice. It must start somewhere. What have you done for your neighbors lately?
2
The context here is that we have a Presidential candidate for one of our 2 major parties who has repeatedly stated that he saw on TV with his own eyes thousands of American Muslims celebrating on the streets of NJ on 9/11/2001 - a complete and total lie, a blood libel that Trump has never retracted and had instead repeated the lie until many accept it as fact from their politically incorrect "truth-teller" - a man who in reality lies with every breath. So when American Muslims celebrate their religous holiday - as is their constitutional right - which happens to be on 9/11 this year, the overwhelming majority of us will also feel the sadness, sorrow, pain and what still feels like a raw wound of the memory of that horrific day and remember and mourn the victims, just like every other American. But Trump and his overwhelmingly bigoted supporters will characterize it as Muslims celebrating on 9/11. That so many commentators and readers of NYT express the same guilt by association bigotry towards American Muslims and Islam is truly disappointing and sad. All right-thinking Americans - Muslim and non-Muslim want to defeat jihadist terrorism. It is absolutely fine to criticize all religions and Islam in particular - that's a constitutional right also. But please stop the bigotry.
14
Why is anyone suggesting that Muslims move the date of their religious holiday? Has anyone asked the Christians if they could do something about Christmas or Easter? No, because that's not how religious calendars work. Let them have their day, and let's the rest of us learn about Islam.
14
Easter falls on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the vernal equinox. If the first full moon occurs on the equinox, Easter is the following Sunday, thus the date changes from year to year. December 25th is fixed as Christmas Day.
2
And is NOT the day Jesus was born. How do they know that? Shepards in the field. They do not go into the fields to watch their sheep in winter. Only in the spring during lambing. Christmas was put in December because the Romans were trying to get rid of the holiday of Saturnalia, which was in December. It was a holiday of light, like Hannaka (sp), and near the longest night of the year. So, Jesus being the 'sun' of light (God) seemed to fit. So, as is often the case His birthday was time shifted. Can't do that to Easter (or it would be a Monday holiday by now) as it is tied to Passover. Wonder when Christmas will become just another Monday holiday?
1
December 25th is actually Mithra's day. Jesus was born in springtime, nobody knows just when. Mithra was the Roman god of the sun, followed by very influential people like senators and such, and his birthday kicked off the end-of-year celebrations. Early Christians co-opted the date to entice powerful Romans into approving of Christianity, just like they co-opted the evergreen tree symbolism from pagan faiths.
Duh, maybe celebrate in a non-loud, indoor way. Is that too much to ask?
12
Duh, move a service (in NYC for example) where 20,000 people are expected indoors? Thus reinforcing the idea that Muslims should accept collective guilt and go in some huge closet for 9/11? You say "duh" a lot I'm guessing
4
You must celebrate your holidays with hard rock? They have a prayer service, dinner with family. Some years they have the prayer service in a park. Not this year it seems. They are too afraid of US.
1
Since it is already a day of remembrance how about all of the mosques including in their holiday celebrations a special remembrance of 9/11, which presumably is something all Americans can support?
10
Perhaps we non-Muslims should take it upon ourselves to support our Muslim neighbors. Watch out for them and wish them a happy holiday. A small way to try to end some bigotry and alleviate fears.
15
On the one hand, it's brutally unfair that this is even an issue. On the other, I'm imagining a truckload of idiots driving past an outdoor religious service, being completely ignorant of the holiday, and suddenly realizing that it's September 11. In light of what just happened in Oklahoma (and the Staten Island story), we need to make sure we protect people of faith.
13
I must say that it is absolutely surprising that Trump has not tweeted about his desire to nuke Mecca during this Holy Muslim holiday!
10
I usually try to avoid the comment section, but this time, sadly I can't.
I'm tired, and I bet most people like me are too.
I'm a American Muslim Egyptian New Yorker. I'm all of these things, and I am tired of people wanting to take away one or multiple designations from me.
I am exhausted from constantly being called upon to defend the actions of people who in essence ALSO ruined my and my peers lives on 9/11. People seem to forget that. We've all become unintended Ambassadors of our faith, even when for a lot of people (as it is in every other faith) may not be so religious or faithful.
I'll do you one better, when we do condemn and call out extremism and hatred, no one hears that, why? Because it isn't news silly. No one cares if we do or we don't. People just want ratings, clicks and likes. You don't get those with condemnations from Muslims. You get it from posting/writing/spreading the actions of the crazy few.
American Muslims (and the overwhelming majority of Muslims) are like everyone else, we go to school and work, get our kids to soccer games and baseball practice. I could (and still can) throw a ball from center field to home with little effort. Why does what I choose to believe change all of these things for so many people who've never met a Muslim before?
We are both American and Muslim. We are 100% of each.
If you want to understand more, feel free to come to a service, You'd be welcomed.
I'm tired, and I bet most people like me are too.
I'm a American Muslim Egyptian New Yorker. I'm all of these things, and I am tired of people wanting to take away one or multiple designations from me.
I am exhausted from constantly being called upon to defend the actions of people who in essence ALSO ruined my and my peers lives on 9/11. People seem to forget that. We've all become unintended Ambassadors of our faith, even when for a lot of people (as it is in every other faith) may not be so religious or faithful.
I'll do you one better, when we do condemn and call out extremism and hatred, no one hears that, why? Because it isn't news silly. No one cares if we do or we don't. People just want ratings, clicks and likes. You don't get those with condemnations from Muslims. You get it from posting/writing/spreading the actions of the crazy few.
American Muslims (and the overwhelming majority of Muslims) are like everyone else, we go to school and work, get our kids to soccer games and baseball practice. I could (and still can) throw a ball from center field to home with little effort. Why does what I choose to believe change all of these things for so many people who've never met a Muslim before?
We are both American and Muslim. We are 100% of each.
If you want to understand more, feel free to come to a service, You'd be welcomed.
58
I don't know the proper word to use, so I will just use one that sounds right to me. Since I will be away on 9/11 I wish you and your family, friends, and coreligious a Blessed Eid al-Adha.
1
Although your religion means nothing to me, you have your right to a holiday. We shouldn't have to pretend that 9/ll wasn't about religion, however.
2
“What am I supposed to tell my kids?”
Tell them that some bad people who practice our religion did some terrible things. Tell them that most people who practice our religion are good people and don';t want to harm anyone. But the bad ones are REALLY bad and none of the good people in our religion have done anything to try and stop them. Maybe your children will be the ones to turn it around since the current generation does not appear motivated to do so.
Tell them that some bad people who practice our religion did some terrible things. Tell them that most people who practice our religion are good people and don';t want to harm anyone. But the bad ones are REALLY bad and none of the good people in our religion have done anything to try and stop them. Maybe your children will be the ones to turn it around since the current generation does not appear motivated to do so.
23
All religions concoct ceremonial dates which seem a bit arcane to others. If they were to declare the new moon was closer to 9/2 than 9/1 then I doubt many others would complain. We have a worrying tendency to make too much of religious functions.
5
Particularly ones you don't believe in? Working on making Easter and Christmas Monday holidays yet? Probably.
1
Know the difference between radical fundamentalist muslims (minority) and the rest of the peaceful Muslim society. The anger people are directing at Muslims in general is misguided. I support their celebration of their faith in their own manner...and the fact that there is a discussion on how the Muslim Centers are reflecting on the coincidence with our 9/11 tragedy shows that they are indeed mindful of what has been and still is going on. Isn't this what all of us should be doing...self-introspection before action?
20
If Donald Trump see people celebrating, he'll film it and say "See?! I told you!"
4
I watched TV all day 9/11. I saw video shot in New Jersey of people standing looking over to Manhattan in absolute shock. Then the Network switched to video taken in the Middle East. Of Palestinians I think. They were watching TV of the towers on TVs in shop windows. They were celebrating. No network has ever had the honesty to say they aired those two pieces of video. Now, I think Trump is less than truly human. But, if he was not watching the TV closely and saw those 2 pieces of video he could have mixed them up in his mind and they became one. Easy to do when shocking things happen. I watched ABC mostly (was there when the whole thing started) but I did jump to the other 2 off and on, to see if they had any new information. So it had to be one of the big 3, just don't know for sure which. They should check and see.
2
Just as we expect Muslims to reconcider the timing of their religeous hoilday in some sort of respect for the 9/11's day of tragedy and be flexible, I expect american citizens to respect Other religeon's dates of worship. It is not Muslims in general terms that attacted America on 9/11 - it was a crazed fanatic group.
As a Jew I was allways surprised to see nyc totally quiet and empty; buisnesse closed on Yom Kipur, the most sacret day for Jewish people, in the middle of the week. Happy that no one protested that. 9/11 is a sad date for ALL 0f us,
Some explaining and telling could be helping to get people in a free country to understand and respect. Sesitivity is first in living in free for all U.S.A.
As a Jew I was allways surprised to see nyc totally quiet and empty; buisnesse closed on Yom Kipur, the most sacret day for Jewish people, in the middle of the week. Happy that no one protested that. 9/11 is a sad date for ALL 0f us,
Some explaining and telling could be helping to get people in a free country to understand and respect. Sesitivity is first in living in free for all U.S.A.
8
Correct. However, crazed fanatics who all had 1 thing in common. Cannot just brush that aside.
2
@Chuck. Nor can I brush aside the fact that you hold 1.6 billion people responsible for the crimes of 19 lunatics.
3
There is no doubt in my mind that Muslims should celebrate their holiday on its intended day. An entire religious group in the US should not have to answer for the actions of radical international terrorists.
What's more, I would view this as more of an opportunity than a challenge. This is the chance to talk about the peaceful role of Islam in the lives of its congregants. A chance to celebrate their religion and to remember the people lost that day. A chance build bridges, not walls, with non-Muslim communities.
Acknowledge the tragedy of that day but also celebrate the belief system that hundreds of millions across the world follow in peace. It's possible, and right, to do both.
What's more, I would view this as more of an opportunity than a challenge. This is the chance to talk about the peaceful role of Islam in the lives of its congregants. A chance to celebrate their religion and to remember the people lost that day. A chance build bridges, not walls, with non-Muslim communities.
Acknowledge the tragedy of that day but also celebrate the belief system that hundreds of millions across the world follow in peace. It's possible, and right, to do both.
16
This notion of Islam as a "religion of peace" seems to have its modern incarnation in the immortal words of George Bush 2 who strove to reassure his Saudi business partners after 9/11 that just because most of the hi-jackers were Saudi (plus Bin Laden) that didn't mean there was anything wrong with their religion. Failure to recognize that Saudi Arabia is paying for and promoting an extremist and often violent form of Islam around the world will be our own undoing.
10
It is the Feast of Sacrifice. If those in the towers weren't sacrificed for something they didn't do, no one has ever been sacrificed. Prayer services and dinners with family is the perfect response.
And the extremely improbable odds that the attack was planned to take place on a Muslim holy day are how improbable? I sure hope it's just something in the water.
The attack did not take place on a Muslim holy day. This year's holy day, 15 years after the attack, may occur on 9/11. The date changes due to the fact that dates on the lunar calendar do not consistently line up with our solar calendar. Judaism has the same issue with its holidays, though they correct for the season.
5
Our Easter corrects for nothing as it is tied by scripture to Passover.
Who, exactly, is stirring fears? This is the epitome of sensationalism on the part of the NYT. Show some dignity and spine, and report on real news.
20
If the date is still up in the air as it seems to be, with all we know about astronomy, then there is no excuse for it to be celebrated on 9/11, at least in NYC. Normally I am sympathetic to American Muslims, but this would be a huge mistake.
What about the point of this holiday? It celebrates a biblical event shared by Jewish and Christian faiths as well. They do not celebrate it because it represents the worst parts of their religions, the ones that modern people pretend don't exist. It's about murdering your own baby - giving up your own conscience and agency for blind obedience to religion. Very dangerous indeed.
What about the point of this holiday? It celebrates a biblical event shared by Jewish and Christian faiths as well. They do not celebrate it because it represents the worst parts of their religions, the ones that modern people pretend don't exist. It's about murdering your own baby - giving up your own conscience and agency for blind obedience to religion. Very dangerous indeed.
11
why are you criticizing the reasons behind another religions holiday? i think its ridiculous to believe jesus was resurrected from the dead but you dont see me telling Christians to stop celebrating easter. to each his own.
6
I also think it's ridiculous to believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead, and I often criticize christians. Luckily, many christian beliefs and holidays have adapted to modern civilization and ethics. Public celebration of Easter, for example, has more to do with the change of seasons and its pagan roots than with a zombie. There is a reason we have the Easter bunny and marshmallow peeps, and dyed eggs, and pastel colors, and talk of new life and hope.
On some level, most American christians know the biblical aspects of Easter are symbolic. And there is a reason celebrations of hope and life have survived in this country rather than celebrations of blind acquiescence to god and rejection of personal ethical responsibility.
I appreciate your effort to criticize religions equally. Unfortunately, the basis of this holiday seems not to jibe with civilized ethics. It may take centuries of practice and critique for the humanitarian aspects of this holiday (self-sacrifice, sharing with the needy) to overshadow the literal, and for the actions of Abraham to be reinterpreted and symbolized in a way that meshes with modern society.
As "War on Christmas" people have been saying, we are very close to the secularization of Christmas and Easter. This is necessary for its survival. American muslims may encounter similar necessities for their religion's survival in the 21st century.
On some level, most American christians know the biblical aspects of Easter are symbolic. And there is a reason celebrations of hope and life have survived in this country rather than celebrations of blind acquiescence to god and rejection of personal ethical responsibility.
I appreciate your effort to criticize religions equally. Unfortunately, the basis of this holiday seems not to jibe with civilized ethics. It may take centuries of practice and critique for the humanitarian aspects of this holiday (self-sacrifice, sharing with the needy) to overshadow the literal, and for the actions of Abraham to be reinterpreted and symbolized in a way that meshes with modern society.
As "War on Christmas" people have been saying, we are very close to the secularization of Christmas and Easter. This is necessary for its survival. American muslims may encounter similar necessities for their religion's survival in the 21st century.
All just goes to show that more than one religion is a result of a single mistake multiplied.
to Ms. Sarsour: Educate your children to form relationships with all New Yorkers. This is their home. They deserve to understand that they are part of a community that is wonderfully diverse. Let's all strive to pass on to our children and grandchildren a genuine positive curiosity of our neighbor's religion, including atheism and a respect for all life.
4
" 'I should not have to think about that.' Ms. Sarsour said."
Of course you should! It's called showing sensitivity for the damage that has been caused in the name of your religion. Let's say Halloween conflicted with Ramadan, and parents of Trick or Treaters were considering whether to knock on Ms. Sarsour's door that night. Would she be satisfied if the parents said "I should not have to think about Ramadan" ?
Of course you should! It's called showing sensitivity for the damage that has been caused in the name of your religion. Let's say Halloween conflicted with Ramadan, and parents of Trick or Treaters were considering whether to knock on Ms. Sarsour's door that night. Would she be satisfied if the parents said "I should not have to think about Ramadan" ?
17
9/11 is a horrible day. However it is not a religious holiday. Or any kind of holiday. At least yet.
1
Eid al-Adha honors a man prepared to kill his child because he heard a voice commanding him to do so.
Pardon me but, thinking rationally, this does not seem to be something we should celebrate.
I would like to ask those participating in this holiday whether, if they heard such a voice, they would be willing to kill their child.
Pardon me but, thinking rationally, this does not seem to be something we should celebrate.
I would like to ask those participating in this holiday whether, if they heard such a voice, they would be willing to kill their child.
19
You are not asked to celebrate it.
8
FYI - the same story is in the Bible. Does that change your position?
4
It does not change my position and I direct the same question to any and all believers of any theology: if you heard such a voice, would you kill your child?
I would have never known their holiday falls on 911. Once again the media has alerted us to a problem that most likely wouldn't be a problem if people were not aware. I am sure they celebrate in a religious setting.
6
You seem to have missed an important point of the article: "If people were not aware," as you put it, it is certainly possible that anyone seeing Muslims celebrating happily on Sept. 11 might misunderstand, and revive Trump's accusation that on the original Sept. 11 he saw thousands of Muslims celebrating. Much better, surely, that we are aware it is a traditional Muslim religious holiday, which may fall this year on Sept. 11, no?
2
Mostly.
Does anyone around you celebrate Easter at an outdoors (public place) Sunrise service?
Does anyone around you celebrate Easter at an outdoors (public place) Sunrise service?
The Imam at the Queens Muslim Center is planning to host 20,000 people at an outdoor service!! I think this plan is misguided, not for religious reasons, but, for community reasons. You are asking law enforcement to protect your followers, neighbors to accommodate your gathering. Freedom of religion, in my humble opinion, does not extend to gatherings of this size. Where will this be held??
9
Maybe not, but freedom of assembly if conducted peacefully is also protected by the first amendment.
There are no grounds whatsoever to create such a ruckus about this.
There are no grounds whatsoever to create such a ruckus about this.
I'm not Muslim, in fact I'm not religious at all, but I can understand how tiring it must be to constantly have to explain and defend yourself. Can't the rest of us just leave them alone to practice their religion? Isn't that what all the religious freedom supporters want? Or, do they only want to be able to practice their own religion, which is usually Christianity?
Where's Ted Cruz, who made religious freedom a hallmark of his presidential campaign? Where is Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore, who has said that he believes restrictions on Muslims can lead to restrictions on Christians, and that "being Baptist is to support soul freedom for everybody." I never hear a peep out of them when all the Muslim bashing starts.
It's time we stopped bullying Muslims and let them practice their religion in peace. Most Muslims, especially in America, are normal people like everyone else. They don't all deserve to be blamed because some of them are crazy zealots. There are plenty of crazy zealot Christians and Jews, but no one blames all Christians and Jews for their actions. Can't we just leave Muslims alone?
Where's Ted Cruz, who made religious freedom a hallmark of his presidential campaign? Where is Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore, who has said that he believes restrictions on Muslims can lead to restrictions on Christians, and that "being Baptist is to support soul freedom for everybody." I never hear a peep out of them when all the Muslim bashing starts.
It's time we stopped bullying Muslims and let them practice their religion in peace. Most Muslims, especially in America, are normal people like everyone else. They don't all deserve to be blamed because some of them are crazy zealots. There are plenty of crazy zealot Christians and Jews, but no one blames all Christians and Jews for their actions. Can't we just leave Muslims alone?
18
Tolerance is a two way street.
1
there are two main reasons people don't blame Christians and Jews for their actions:
1. they don't commit "actions" in the first place. things like like suicide bombing, airplane hijacking, stabbing, running people over, beheading people, or stoning gays are not generally committed by anyone but Islamists.
2. on the rare occasions when a Christian or a Jew commits an act of terror, he doesn't say "Here's to Hashem!" or "This is for you, Jesus!" but Muslim terrorist action is done explicitly in the name of Allah.
that's the difference. get it?
1. they don't commit "actions" in the first place. things like like suicide bombing, airplane hijacking, stabbing, running people over, beheading people, or stoning gays are not generally committed by anyone but Islamists.
2. on the rare occasions when a Christian or a Jew commits an act of terror, he doesn't say "Here's to Hashem!" or "This is for you, Jesus!" but Muslim terrorist action is done explicitly in the name of Allah.
that's the difference. get it?
2
Translate the Arabic Allah to English. What do you have? GOD What they yell is (I bet in hopes that the act they are about to commit really is 'good' in the eyes of GOD) 'God Is Great!' So, in hating that phrase you yourself are hating God. Your God if you are Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. Or as some say, 'God is God, God is Jehovah, Jehovah is Allah. Allah is God.'
"Exactly when the month begins depends on when a new moon is spotted" and we're supposed to have a rational dialog about this?
6
It’s a religious calendar, not the one they use for business. Their religious holidays are a very old tradition, dating back something like 1,300 years.
3
Yup: Jewish holidays too.
The Muslim community have an amazing chance to build bridges here. By moving the date of their holiday (just this one time) shows us all they have the ability to adapt with the times and that they prioritize the concerns of others before their own. I can't think of any other American religion, community group or even sports team that would choose 9.11 for the date of a celebration.
15
This is the same holiday that Muslims create a bloodbath by slaughtering helpless sheep?
As an Iranian-American who was oppressed by the religious fanatics back in Iran, I don't understand why observant Muslims come to America. I was chased out of Iran by the religious fanatics who expelled me from high school because I was "sufficiently observant". Everywhere in the Middle East there is religiosity. Why can't they practice there? Note how many secular people have been hacked to death by religious people in Bangladesh recently. Why can't religious Muslims leave the rest of us alone? Everywhere I go they follow.
As an Iranian-American who was oppressed by the religious fanatics back in Iran, I don't understand why observant Muslims come to America. I was chased out of Iran by the religious fanatics who expelled me from high school because I was "sufficiently observant". Everywhere in the Middle East there is religiosity. Why can't they practice there? Note how many secular people have been hacked to death by religious people in Bangladesh recently. Why can't religious Muslims leave the rest of us alone? Everywhere I go they follow.
43
This may blow your mind, but not every Muslim here followed you from Iran.
2
I love France but the way the French have dealt with Muslims since the 60s should serve as a good lesson for us. Ostracising, alienating and separating them will only breed deep resentment from which no good will result.
We do not want to breed more angry, disenfranchised people in the US.
I wish those angry folks out there would see the light.
A cemetery is a need Of all humanity, let it be.
We do not want to breed more angry, disenfranchised people in the US.
I wish those angry folks out there would see the light.
A cemetery is a need Of all humanity, let it be.
4
Hate and ignorance ! It's kind of like MLK day and Lee-Jackson Day being observed in January.
I always figured some folks would be miffed over that event. Let the calendars roll as they will, we all are tasked with being mindful of those around us, daily. And yet, lot of people have a hard time with traffic ordinances, too.
I admit, I find it interesting the day is picked by the sighting of a new moon. One might think there may not be an observance if the weather obscured the moon's appearance. Life goes on.
I always figured some folks would be miffed over that event. Let the calendars roll as they will, we all are tasked with being mindful of those around us, daily. And yet, lot of people have a hard time with traffic ordinances, too.
I admit, I find it interesting the day is picked by the sighting of a new moon. One might think there may not be an observance if the weather obscured the moon's appearance. Life goes on.
1
The sky is not obscured everywhere. From what I understand, it only takes one sighting, in one location.
1
What a silly article! Why make an issue where none should exist? And, why should Muslims be attached in any way to 9/11? The premise is false.
This is how Islamophobia is fanned...suggesting that Muslim Americans somehow bear a special responsibility for 9/11. They don't.
This is how Islamophobia is fanned...suggesting that Muslim Americans somehow bear a special responsibility for 9/11. They don't.
13
In 2001, Eid Al-Adha began on March 5 and ended in the evening of March 6th.
The following was the White House Press Release message from George W. Bush regarding the Muslim celebration, a message which could, for the most-part, perhaps again be our message on 9/11/2016:
"Eid Al-Adha, 2001
Warm greetings to Muslims across the United States as you celebrate the Eid al-Adha holiday and join in spirit with the millions gathered in Mecca to uphold the traditions of one of your most sacred feasts.
America was built on a strong spiritual foundation, and the celebration of faith is central to our lives. As you celebrate the annual Hajj, the fifth pillar of Islam, you honor the great sacrifice and devotion of Abraham as recognized by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. By educating others about your religious traditions, you enrich the lives of others in your local communities.
The variety of nations and cultures represented by those who travel to Mecca each year, and the varied ways in which Muslims contribute to American life across the United States, are powerful reminders that ethnic and racial differences need not divide us when we share common values and purposes. By building strong foundations of mutual respect, we can achieve peace and reconciliation in our world.
Laura joins me in sending best wishes for a joyous holiday celebration.
GEORGE W. BUSH"
https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2001/03/200103...
The following was the White House Press Release message from George W. Bush regarding the Muslim celebration, a message which could, for the most-part, perhaps again be our message on 9/11/2016:
"Eid Al-Adha, 2001
Warm greetings to Muslims across the United States as you celebrate the Eid al-Adha holiday and join in spirit with the millions gathered in Mecca to uphold the traditions of one of your most sacred feasts.
America was built on a strong spiritual foundation, and the celebration of faith is central to our lives. As you celebrate the annual Hajj, the fifth pillar of Islam, you honor the great sacrifice and devotion of Abraham as recognized by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. By educating others about your religious traditions, you enrich the lives of others in your local communities.
The variety of nations and cultures represented by those who travel to Mecca each year, and the varied ways in which Muslims contribute to American life across the United States, are powerful reminders that ethnic and racial differences need not divide us when we share common values and purposes. By building strong foundations of mutual respect, we can achieve peace and reconciliation in our world.
Laura joins me in sending best wishes for a joyous holiday celebration.
GEORGE W. BUSH"
https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2001/03/200103...
12
This is not a "coincidence."
12
Southern Boy: On what evidence are you basing that statement?
2
By the number of thumbs up I have received, Mr. Burke, people seem to agree with me.
Thumbs up does indicate that some people agree with you. Random people agreeing with you is not the same as evidence. A conspiracy theory does not become true because people believe in it. Something false doesn't become true because lots of people "like" it on Facebook. Not good ways to investigate the accuracy of an assertion.
1
I assume Ms. Sarsour is one the Times's go-to people about Muslim affairs. Perhaps the Times might want to check out her Twitter feed:
https://twitter.com/lsarsour/status/740809917603446788
"Just Israel wishing Palestinians a blessed Ramadan" when Israel suspended entry permits after the terrorist attack in Tel Aviv in June this year. Not a word about the victims of the attack (of course).
And here's Ms. Sarsour on "Zionist" trolls:
http://nypost.com/2016/04/02/city-gives-500k-to-activist-at-center-of-pa...
So, when Ms. Sarsour says, "What am I supposed to tell my kids?” perhaps she should start with "Stop hating Jews."
https://twitter.com/lsarsour/status/740809917603446788
"Just Israel wishing Palestinians a blessed Ramadan" when Israel suspended entry permits after the terrorist attack in Tel Aviv in June this year. Not a word about the victims of the attack (of course).
And here's Ms. Sarsour on "Zionist" trolls:
http://nypost.com/2016/04/02/city-gives-500k-to-activist-at-center-of-pa...
So, when Ms. Sarsour says, "What am I supposed to tell my kids?” perhaps she should start with "Stop hating Jews."
46
@ronnyc
Indeed! Tolerance is a two way street! Muslims shouldn't expect any until they are ready to tolerate others.
Indeed! Tolerance is a two way street! Muslims shouldn't expect any until they are ready to tolerate others.
4
I'm sorry our country has reached this state of mind.
10
Eid Al Adha -- the feast of sacrifice, is a celebration by Muslims for having completed Hajj. Muslim will not be drinking alcohol, singing or dancing. They will be praying starting early morning -- before sunrise. I don't see an issue. Since the Islamic calendar is a Lunar calendar, this coincidence will not happen for about 24 to 25 years. And by then, people like Trump will have picked some other community to pick on.
6
Gosh. The poor abused Muslims. A religion that still stones people to death for: adultery, leaving the religion, drawing cartoons. I guess I missed those demonstrations where the "main stream Muslims" protested their crazy brothers who slaughter everybody in sight because their holy book justifies killing anyone they disagree with. As bill mahr says, this isn't a few bad apples, the whole orchard is rotten. We allow them into our midst at our own peril.
24
"I should not have to think about that,” Ms. Sarsour said. “What am I supposed to tell my kids?”
****
Many non-Muslim Americans wish they didn't have to think about it either. It wasn't easy for them to discuss it with their kids.
****
Many non-Muslim Americans wish they didn't have to think about it either. It wasn't easy for them to discuss it with their kids.
41
on 9/11, many parents had to explain to their children why their father or mother was not coming home to them ever again.
12
If it's 2 weeks out and they don't know the date, why can't they just move it a day? Maybe the following Monday, and call it a long weekend.
15
Because unlike some their religious Holy Days mean something besides a day off and time to get drunk for 3 days.
Pardon my ignorance, but can someone explain to me how, in 2016, there is any level of "uncertainty" at all as to the precise date when a new moon will occur?
38
It's not about "occurring." It's about being detectable by human vision, which depends on a variety of atmospheric factors. Anyway, why is it your business how a community chooses to determine the dates of its holidays?
They should show some respect without being told or pushed to do so.
They enjoy all of our liberties and freedom.
Is it too much to ask?
Is it?
They enjoy all of our liberties and freedom.
Is it too much to ask?
Is it?
16
I'm beginning to think it is. There have been far too few protests or demonstrations by the so called "main stream" Muslims regarding their muderous, insane fellow believers. The polls in most Muslim countries show majorities believe in exactly what the Koran says. With no reformation Islam is unfiltered and as brutal, intolerant, and rigid as the day it was written.
9
This comment seems self-contradicting. If they "enjoy all of our freedoms and liberties," then why should they be "told and pushed" to move their religious holiday?
1
Respect is only called for with regard to things that merit respect. And the desire some people have for everyone else to drop what they're doing because it's the anniversary of some day of decadal significance to some people, more than a decade after it happened, does not merit respect.
While the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peace living people I am concerned about the few fanatics who may use this concurrence of dates for evil purposes, such as spreading more terror
12
yeah, the "few" fanatics statement is naive. you might want to search Raheel Raza a Muslim woman who speaks the TRUTH and will give you some uncomfortable statistics about the "religion of peace"
3
“I should not have to think about that,” Ms. Sarsour said. “What am I supposed to tell my kids?”
Wrong, like every American you should have to think about how Muslim terrorists harmed innocent people and this country on that day and what you, as an American, can do about it. If you don't, then why are you in this country?
Wrong, like every American you should have to think about how Muslim terrorists harmed innocent people and this country on that day and what you, as an American, can do about it. If you don't, then why are you in this country?
40
Tell me PTA, how many days a week do you think about Timothy McVeigh, James Earl Ray, and the many black Americans that have been subjected to Christian Terror in this country?
I'll wait while you count the digits on your right hand.
I'll wait while you count the digits on your right hand.
5
Which, if any, of the acts of "Christian Terror" are in accordance with the religion and which, if any, are in violation of it?
Now, insert "Muslim Terror" into the question and ask it again.
If one question is valid, so is the other.
Now, insert "Muslim Terror" into the question and ask it again.
If one question is valid, so is the other.
1
Why are Americans supposed to think about this stuff on that day? Come on, 9/11 was 15 years ago. Give it a rest.
I'm going to do what I do ever September 11th, and every Pearl Harbor day, as well as every anniversary of Hurricane Katrina and every anniversary of the sinking of the Maine: ignore it and do whatever I would have done anyway.
I'm going to do what I do ever September 11th, and every Pearl Harbor day, as well as every anniversary of Hurricane Katrina and every anniversary of the sinking of the Maine: ignore it and do whatever I would have done anyway.
1
On this planet there is a species, which for the most part, exhibits one, often several, and in too many instances, all of the following, xenophobia, envy, resentment, unreasonable anger, hatred, narcissism, fear, and myriad other variants of such traits which divide and alienate.
Some of this species exhibits the thing we call love, also empathy, care, consideration, a desire to help others of the species, and a desire to protect and husband the planet for its progeny.
The species is Human beings, Homo Sapiens, all of whom cannot deny they possess one or more of each category.
And here in the United States of America, it seems to me, (I wish I were wrong), that an outsize number exhibit the first group, and worse they exhort, successfully, others to join in their mania.
And this year, so many centuries along the path to civilization, we seem to have completely regressed, and appear to be on a path to annihilation, perhaps understanding, in some deep part of our unconsciousness, the mortal danger we represent to the planet, and it's other species.
Some of this species exhibits the thing we call love, also empathy, care, consideration, a desire to help others of the species, and a desire to protect and husband the planet for its progeny.
The species is Human beings, Homo Sapiens, all of whom cannot deny they possess one or more of each category.
And here in the United States of America, it seems to me, (I wish I were wrong), that an outsize number exhibit the first group, and worse they exhort, successfully, others to join in their mania.
And this year, so many centuries along the path to civilization, we seem to have completely regressed, and appear to be on a path to annihilation, perhaps understanding, in some deep part of our unconsciousness, the mortal danger we represent to the planet, and it's other species.
2
There are 365 days on our calendar. 9/11 happens to be one of them. As is 11/9. And 3/4 and 5/6. If we start holding days hostage out of respect, for certain holidays, for specific remembrances, for certain faiths, we will run out of days and become paralyzed. Every day of the year people are born and others die. Those days remain gravely significant and should be for those impacted. There is no harm in that. For others there is no harm in allowing that significance, but not being forced to comply or avoid the day for other things to happen. If so, we should be offended as a nation that Presidents' Day has been turned into a reason to sell mattresses on sale.
10
Amen. if someone on the left insisted on doing something like this, it would be dismissed as politically correct nonsense.
On 9/11 a foreign attack by Saudi nationals, Muslims all, on US soil killed 2,996 and injured over 6,000 innocent souls. Who among us does not remember where we were when we learned of the tragic attack and the Twin Towers falling? 9/11 will never be just "one day of 365" for any of us. To pretend otherwise and to ignore the fact that a celebration of a Muslim holiday on 9/11 could be seen as inflammatory is insensitive.
2
But, ok to sell cars?
I'd like to see Chik-fil-a have to be open on Sunday's. They say it's out of respect for the owner's Christianity. But, when we had the Great Recession and there were people not Christian and well as Chistian who would have cried for a job to make money to buy food for their family, they would have gladly worked Sundays. But, no everyone had to 'respect' the owners religion. I haven't eaten there since and will not. As I stay away from Hobby Lobby for the same thing. Attempting to force us to obey their man made religious laws.
I'd like to see Chik-fil-a have to be open on Sunday's. They say it's out of respect for the owner's Christianity. But, when we had the Great Recession and there were people not Christian and well as Chistian who would have cried for a job to make money to buy food for their family, they would have gladly worked Sundays. But, no everyone had to 'respect' the owners religion. I haven't eaten there since and will not. As I stay away from Hobby Lobby for the same thing. Attempting to force us to obey their man made religious laws.
1
This holiday comes and goes every year and I've never heard of it. I doubt other non-Muslim Americans have, either. Maybe the best path forward is to just go ahead with the holiday as usual and not get the media involved. Whoops, too late!
11
Trump and his band of 'merry men should have a field day on 9/11. Their ill formed logic and small minds, should bring reason to a halt! All in the name of god!
2
Yes, just like the Twin Towers were brought down in the name of god. Wake up and see who hates YOU!
1
Fear always invades the mind like a virus for those who do wrong or think differently. In a democracy you one has to fear breaking the law and order, or hurting the feeling of others. In my humble opinion they must celebrate their holiday in a normal orderly manner. If they are concerned about the 9/11 attacks, they can start their day by allocating 5 minutes of remembrance to honour the innocent victims of 9/11 and devote a prayer for them. That will demonstrate empathy. Good luck with the celebrations.
This is a teachable moment in which to build bridges, to oppose hate, to celebrate Islam with peace and dignity, and to honor the victims of September 11.
May peace descend on all people and all the world.
May peace descend on all people and all the world.
8
I have only one question, please. Why is the date of this holiday so important and what exactly does the feast celebrate?
When I moved to France I decided to keep Thanksgiving, which is no small feat here but I won't go into that. The Thanksgiving Feast began as a day, or so accepted history states, as 3 days of feasting and days of prayer giving thanks. People in America also use it now to visit/invite seldom seen family members, or friends. There is a tradition among some family to invite a person or more who would otherwise spend the day alone. That would make it a compassion and empathy also. (Not just football.)
Well, I've done pretty well with Thanksgiving but I had to move the day because the 4th Thursday of every November is not a day off in France and therefore not a long holiday. I've also had to change the menu because it is next to impossible to get a whole baking turkey in November. But what I have discovered, is the intention of the holiday still remains true. Though I can't claim to have the same faith that I had in my youth the feast on whatever day it occurs and with whatever we have prepared is a celebration while we reflect on connections, love, and the wonder of living in this world with each other.
Can the holiday be moved without invalidating it? Can it be shared with persons who are not and do not want to become Muslim? I've celebrated with my neighbors in the USA: The birth day of Krisha, some Buddhist and Christian holidays, all with no problem.
When I moved to France I decided to keep Thanksgiving, which is no small feat here but I won't go into that. The Thanksgiving Feast began as a day, or so accepted history states, as 3 days of feasting and days of prayer giving thanks. People in America also use it now to visit/invite seldom seen family members, or friends. There is a tradition among some family to invite a person or more who would otherwise spend the day alone. That would make it a compassion and empathy also. (Not just football.)
Well, I've done pretty well with Thanksgiving but I had to move the day because the 4th Thursday of every November is not a day off in France and therefore not a long holiday. I've also had to change the menu because it is next to impossible to get a whole baking turkey in November. But what I have discovered, is the intention of the holiday still remains true. Though I can't claim to have the same faith that I had in my youth the feast on whatever day it occurs and with whatever we have prepared is a celebration while we reflect on connections, love, and the wonder of living in this world with each other.
Can the holiday be moved without invalidating it? Can it be shared with persons who are not and do not want to become Muslim? I've celebrated with my neighbors in the USA: The birth day of Krisha, some Buddhist and Christian holidays, all with no problem.
5
@Susannah from France. All I can say to you is "Really"? You moved the day you celebrate Thanksgiving...big deal. I've done that and I am born and raised in the United States. However, I have never changed the day that I celebrate Easter or Christmas. I'm sure the Jewish community doesn't change the days for Rosh Hashana or any of their religous holidays. Why should Muslims? Thanksgiving is NOT a religous holiday . Your suggestion is an insult to the Muslim community and their religious beliefs. BTW, did you read the article? It states the reason that Muslims celebrate the holiday.
3
There is a thing called Google.
Unlike Thanksgiving which is not an official Christian holiday, Eid al-Adha appears to be a holiday that is calculated by specific astronomical events. The article stated that Eid al-Adha is one of the most important Islamic holidays. The Christian, Easter, is also a holiday that is calculated by some criteria and changes every year. Asking Muslims to "move" their holiday, is to me akin to asking Christians to move Easter! It is not a very respectful request and would likely make for less than positive emotions. It is like asking people of color to change their behaviors to be respectful of white people's fragility, defensiveness and lack of understanding about what racism is. EVERYTHING is geared to the dominant group: white, male, Christian, etc.
I am happy that you have been able to maintain your Thanksgiving tradition in France. It must be a comfort to you. But, I challenge you to learn the truth about our so-called Thanksgiving. The fantasy story we were all taught in school is not true. It has a much darker history surrounding white treatment of Native Americans. I've made sure that this is the story told at our Thanksgiving table. We all go around and say what we're thankful for and discuss oppressions and injustices in our world & how we as a race , group or as individuals possess some of these privileges. What must it feel like or to experience life without such privileges?
No one in the US should have to change their religious holidays to make Christians feel OK.
I am happy that you have been able to maintain your Thanksgiving tradition in France. It must be a comfort to you. But, I challenge you to learn the truth about our so-called Thanksgiving. The fantasy story we were all taught in school is not true. It has a much darker history surrounding white treatment of Native Americans. I've made sure that this is the story told at our Thanksgiving table. We all go around and say what we're thankful for and discuss oppressions and injustices in our world & how we as a race , group or as individuals possess some of these privileges. What must it feel like or to experience life without such privileges?
No one in the US should have to change their religious holidays to make Christians feel OK.
2
Don't scientists know long in advance what date a new moon will fall on?
9
Please.
Move forward with your ceremonies - in honor of 911, and the lives lost, if that is appropriate to your religion and your Holy Day.
I admit I am quite ignorant of your religion. No offense meant.
Regardless, peace to you all - to us all - during these difficult times.
Move forward with your ceremonies - in honor of 911, and the lives lost, if that is appropriate to your religion and your Holy Day.
I admit I am quite ignorant of your religion. No offense meant.
Regardless, peace to you all - to us all - during these difficult times.
9
As a Jew, I'm used to religious observances that fall on varying days of the secular calendar - - because our observances are dated by the Jewish lunar calendar.
My concern for Muslims is that most Americans probably don't understand the concept of a religious observance based on a non-western calendar.
Therefore, many Americans may think that Muslims deliberately set the date of Eid al-Adha to fall on Sept. 11 in order to be deliberately provocative.
Of course this isn't the case, but low-information Americans believe all kinds of untruths. So what are Muslims to do?
If they keep the integrity of their religion, they'll observe Eid al-Adha on the day that it's supposed to be observed. But my fear is that, if they do so, an increased wave of attacks on Muslims will ensue.
This is a tough situation for American Muslims.
My concern for Muslims is that most Americans probably don't understand the concept of a religious observance based on a non-western calendar.
Therefore, many Americans may think that Muslims deliberately set the date of Eid al-Adha to fall on Sept. 11 in order to be deliberately provocative.
Of course this isn't the case, but low-information Americans believe all kinds of untruths. So what are Muslims to do?
If they keep the integrity of their religion, they'll observe Eid al-Adha on the day that it's supposed to be observed. But my fear is that, if they do so, an increased wave of attacks on Muslims will ensue.
This is a tough situation for American Muslims.
18
You're worried about an 'increased wave of attacks on Muslims'? You mean non-existent attacks unlike the all too real attacks of 9/11/01, Bataclan Theater and Nice.
9
of course Muslims can and should celebrate their holiday as they see fit.
theologically one can make the argument that Abraham actually challenging God in a power play. sermons should well remind believers that in the end the angel intervened on behalf of God, so as not to make Abraham a martyr.
theologically one can make the argument that Abraham actually challenging God in a power play. sermons should well remind believers that in the end the angel intervened on behalf of God, so as not to make Abraham a martyr.
2
Don't know what to make of the discussions focused on lunar vs solar calendars. This is about a coincidence on dates; unfortunately, anniversaries can be used as excuses for violence by some.
One fine idea that was offered here is inviting non-moslems to local mosques to see what that experience is like; that could go a long way to alleviating anxiety for all.
One fine idea that was offered here is inviting non-moslems to local mosques to see what that experience is like; that could go a long way to alleviating anxiety for all.
6
Not sure if the Jewish New Year, Rosh Hashanah has fallen on 9/11 in the last few years but it will happen in 2018. Should we Jews change the date or change our plans of worship? I think not. Nor should our Muslim Brothers and Sisters. Except for some politicians (yes you Rudy) who exploit 9/11 for personal gain, most of us go about remembering in or own way. To bring an old cliche into play.....If we in any way give up our freedom of religion then the terrorists win.
33
Religions are arcane governing systems. They are an offshoot of Tribalism. As in both, there is simply no leeway. Faith is another thing altogether because it is not group dependent but internalized. This is why religions, any religion, is an evil in today's small fragile world.
I don't really care if religions still exist but they need to realize that they are the supreme form of governing to a person's soul and communities of faith. They should not and need to realize that they do not - as in are not allowed - to govern the lives of those people who choose to display their faith a different way. In simpler words: your belief system does not impact mine until members of your tribe try to force it down my throat by stoning me or throwing me off a building. When that sort of thing happens it is an act of government war.
I am fine with others having their own religion dogmas to guide them within the community they have chosen. I hope you're happy there. Really I do. However I don't belong there and I certainly don't want to be forced to join. I'd rather believe that Cinderella's fairy godmother made her glass slippers with a flick of her wand than that GOD spoke to men (exclusively) and those powerless but power-hungry men were chosen by an unseen supreme being telling them they were free to do as they pleased but everyone else must be miserable, especially women and everyone not of the tribe. I don't care about Islam. I care about people.
I don't really care if religions still exist but they need to realize that they are the supreme form of governing to a person's soul and communities of faith. They should not and need to realize that they do not - as in are not allowed - to govern the lives of those people who choose to display their faith a different way. In simpler words: your belief system does not impact mine until members of your tribe try to force it down my throat by stoning me or throwing me off a building. When that sort of thing happens it is an act of government war.
I am fine with others having their own religion dogmas to guide them within the community they have chosen. I hope you're happy there. Really I do. However I don't belong there and I certainly don't want to be forced to join. I'd rather believe that Cinderella's fairy godmother made her glass slippers with a flick of her wand than that GOD spoke to men (exclusively) and those powerless but power-hungry men were chosen by an unseen supreme being telling them they were free to do as they pleased but everyone else must be miserable, especially women and everyone not of the tribe. I don't care about Islam. I care about people.
2
You're proclaiming that tolerance is a great virtue while at the same time declaring that religion, which billions upon billions of human beings the world over hold to, is evil.
What makes your intolerance superior to the intolerance of the religious?
What makes your intolerance superior to the intolerance of the religious?
I'm sure Khizr Khan will be in front of the camera, any camera, to lecture us all on the meaning of Muslim Holy Day, the coincidence of it falling on 9/11 and pretty much anything else that enters his head.
9
Why would you even say such a mean thing? I take it you do not believe that the First Amendment does not extend to this Naturalized American Citizen. His son died for our Country. Have some respect, Donald.
2
Funny how Trump supporters also gleefully attack a Gold Star family for no reason and out of senseless hatred.
Where's Christopher Hitchins when we need him? The lunacy of religion in all its forms is what we should be shedding. Not just "holy days" that fall on awkward dates.
18
Amen. Signed, fellow atheist.
2
This seems like nothing more than a coincidence. Religious celebrations aren't even thought of as typical celebrations anyway. That being said, the theme of Eid al-Adha is horrifying. It is praising a man who was willing to kill an innocent person for God. And this story exists in Judaism and Christianity as well.
12
they are celebrating the wrong person.
It is Issac that would have been scarified and not Ishmael.
Just open Genesis
It is Issac that would have been scarified and not Ishmael.
Just open Genesis
4
You are wrong. Holidays, (holy days) ARE occasion to celebrate for their adherents! I guess your definition of "celebration" only includes whatever it is that you do to celebrate something. A celebration can and DOES encompass a variety of activities, customs and beliefs across the globe.
You can look at the story of Ibrahim/Abraham as horrifying. But, lesson for Jewish, Muslim and Christian people is about their commitment to their GOD. A willingness to sacrifice that which is most dear to us, to obey God. It is the story of a TEST of FAITH. The part you left out is that God never intended to allow such a thing to happen. Pretty much every religion has their own horror stories. Most of them were written, after all, about a 1000 years ago. As long as no one is hurt or breaks any laws during the celebration of whatever holiday, who cares?
You can look at the story of Ibrahim/Abraham as horrifying. But, lesson for Jewish, Muslim and Christian people is about their commitment to their GOD. A willingness to sacrifice that which is most dear to us, to obey God. It is the story of a TEST of FAITH. The part you left out is that God never intended to allow such a thing to happen. Pretty much every religion has their own horror stories. Most of them were written, after all, about a 1000 years ago. As long as no one is hurt or breaks any laws during the celebration of whatever holiday, who cares?
1
There are a variety of disagreements/contradictions in the Quran concerning the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. This is one of them; another is that Jesus was not crucified, and also that he was not God's son, despite venerating the Virgin Mary and believing in the Virgin birth.
1
So Usama Bin Laden and his criminal thugs largely in Afghanistan and Pakistan planned and carried out 9 11 and now we are supposed to be suspicious and blame all of Islam for their misconduct?
I'm not even remotely Muslim and I can even tell you that's just plain crazy.
Look: You wanna hold a group of people at fault for holding up the modernization of Islam? Then blame the crazy Wahhabists and their Royal family sycophants in Saudi Arabia and the nut jobs who run the wacko religious government in Iran. If those psychos would let the modern world influence and allow Islam to fit peacefully into modern Western culture as well, 9 11 would have never happened.
Place blame where it belongs - not on the innocent followers of one of the world's great religions.
I'm not even remotely Muslim and I can even tell you that's just plain crazy.
Look: You wanna hold a group of people at fault for holding up the modernization of Islam? Then blame the crazy Wahhabists and their Royal family sycophants in Saudi Arabia and the nut jobs who run the wacko religious government in Iran. If those psychos would let the modern world influence and allow Islam to fit peacefully into modern Western culture as well, 9 11 would have never happened.
Place blame where it belongs - not on the innocent followers of one of the world's great religions.
22
There is no such thing as a "great religion"...in my humble opinion. They are all fairy tales that eventually culminate in misunderstanings and violence.
5
And while we are at it, let's acknowledge similar oppressive and obstructionist behavior from the Christian Right fringe. EVERY religion has its extremists. The mainstream followers of all religions are not responsible for the acts of those who have perverted the religion. All religions have some version of the Golden Rule. Treat others as you would want to be treated. You know, respect, kindness, fellowship?
2
Do you extend your respect, kindness, and fellowship to those whom you identify as oppressive, obstructionist, Christian Right fringe extremists?
If not, you're merely virtue-signaling.
If not, you're merely virtue-signaling.
Muslims here, burkinis there. Ours and Europe's rhetoric has been taken hostage by this religion. Am I the only one getting sick of Islam and their gripes or whining taking over our collective discourse? My god that religion is becoming like an unruly child that needs constant attention.
53
Unlike the South, which seems to have been taken hostage by Southern Baptists, among other Christian cults.
1
You consider it "unruly" for people to expect to be able to celebrate their own religious holidays without interference?
2
I'm also sick of seeing (some of) their women walking around covered head-to-toe in the middle of the summer. Then getting into a vehicle and driving around with what has to be obstructed vision. At least the Albanian and other eastern European muslims are more assimilated and are easier to deal with.
4
Coincidence is not news.
3
I suspect most of the people with the 9/11 fixation after fifteen years don't live near Muslims.
9
9/11 fixation? What about Nice, Paris, Orlando, San Bernadino, Ft. Hood and others? With a radical Islamic terror attack happening on a monthly basis or more, no wonder there is apprehension. It's time for Islam to modernize and fully disavow Sharia law and the murder of innocents.
19
People, regardless of their particular religion, ought to be afraid to celebrate "the willingness of Ibrahim, or Abraham, to sacrifice his son Ishmael as an act of submission to God’s command."
They should fear being regarded as superstitious barbarians who, in theory at least, care more about an invisible friend in the sky than their own children. They should fear being viewed warily by their rational fellow citizens. That's certainly how I view them.
They should fear being regarded as superstitious barbarians who, in theory at least, care more about an invisible friend in the sky than their own children. They should fear being viewed warily by their rational fellow citizens. That's certainly how I view them.
17
What is really missing from our Muslim brothers and sisters, who have their roots within the Abrahamic faith, is that there is a sense out there, that their leaders or Mullahs have not come to the forefront to unequivocally denounce the atrocities which have taken place in the name of Islam! I don't know if this is the media's fault, their lack of an Ataturk, Saladin, or Sulimen the Great, or their reluctance as a people to unite in mass protest, but I really believe their general silence as a people, have unfortunately tainted them in the minds of even many people, who would otherwise want to support them.
23
Apparently you don't read much. Muslim American groups and Muslim Americans have consistently voiced outrage at such atrocities. Moreover they are not responsible for the acts of these people just because they are Muslims. Do we condemn all Catholic Americans for acts committed by pedophile priests here? Do we condemn all Christian Americans for murders committed by other Christians? Muslim Americans are no different than other Americans. Just like you and I they should not have to apologize for the actions of others just because they proport to be Islamic.
1
We do, we do it all the time, but no one is interested in that.
Perhaps you've been out of the country since 9/11? Muslims have been very vocal. How many times and how loud do they need to say it? I am sorry they do not meet your standard of remorse for something THEY did not do. By your logic I could say the same about all CHRISTIANS & their CLERGY who have not condemned the murders, bombings, arson and physical assaults perpetrated by their Right Wing Fringe over the abortion issue. Double standard here?
1
Liberalism dictates we must be inclusive and sympathetic and promote multiculturalism... but religion, all religions, --at best-- are an awkward anachronism, something to step gingerly over. They are all dangerous and backwards.
11
All of them. This conversation itself is ridiculous. Religion and the many gods they created have caused untold suffering.
1
Religion aside, there is still an expectation of civility and a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to worship or not, to speak out, etc. That is not "liberalism" to anyone but a US conservative who wants to deny those rights to anyone who is not like them!
2
>>>Liberalism dictates we must be inclusive and sympathetic and promote multiculturalism...
Such virtue-signaling, chest-thumping statements are always followed by a "but."
In any case, if every "dangerous and backwards" thought, word, and act by a so-called religious person is an indictment against all religion, then every "dangerous and backwards" thought, word, and act by a nonreligious person is equally a statement against irreligion.
Such virtue-signaling, chest-thumping statements are always followed by a "but."
In any case, if every "dangerous and backwards" thought, word, and act by a so-called religious person is an indictment against all religion, then every "dangerous and backwards" thought, word, and act by a nonreligious person is equally a statement against irreligion.
September 11th is also the day Henry Hudson 'discovered' Manhattan Island, Alexander Hamilton was appointed the first U.S. Secretary of the Treasury, Mormons and Paiutes massacred 120 settlers at Mountain Meadow, UT, U.S. Marines invade Honduras, ground is broken for the Pentagon, the first allied troops of the U.S. Army cross into Germany, Pete Rose breaks Ty Cobb's most hits baseball record. And, 4 airlines were intentionally crashed into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and in a field in Shanksville, PA. It also happens to be my sister's birthday, and who died 6 years ago.
(dates selected from Wikipedia)
Important things happen every single day of the year. Celebrate or mourn as we each see fit and are convicted, but don't begin to assume each of our reason for doing so are either unique or trumps others with the same desire or intent.
(dates selected from Wikipedia)
Important things happen every single day of the year. Celebrate or mourn as we each see fit and are convicted, but don't begin to assume each of our reason for doing so are either unique or trumps others with the same desire or intent.
17
One of the unintended consequences of having a lunar calendar--the holidays skip all around in a complicated dance dictated by astronomical observations, and sometimes they fall on really inauspicious days, like 9/11. The same thing happens with the traditional Chinese calendar--that's why Chinese New Year's sometimes falls any which day in February and, sometimes, early March.
As to the Islamic calendar, I thought Ramadan during the summer months was bad. (For those not in the know, Ramadan slowly marches down a year due to lunar movements and calculations. As a result Ramadan--the month-long period when Muslims are not permitted to eat food between sunrise and sundown--can fall in the winter, meaning short days. But when it falls in the summer, it's rather bad because the days are lot longer so the fasting lasts longer too. And now this.
As to the Islamic calendar, I thought Ramadan during the summer months was bad. (For those not in the know, Ramadan slowly marches down a year due to lunar movements and calculations. As a result Ramadan--the month-long period when Muslims are not permitted to eat food between sunrise and sundown--can fall in the winter, meaning short days. But when it falls in the summer, it's rather bad because the days are lot longer so the fasting lasts longer too. And now this.
7
Save of the routine law and order maintenance and security precautions why the holy Islamic day of sacred remembranceand observance, Eid-al-Adha should cause undue anxieties in a mature plural democratic society like America even if the celebration day coincides with the tragic anniversary day of September 11? For, the anti-Muslim Trump-et played in the recent campaign season couldn't really be so soothing and appealing to the vast majority of the American people that they would cease to be receptive and welcoming to occasions of celebration associated with the many hues of culture and faith flourishing on their land?
1
Something to keep in mind is that this holiday is in the middle of the Hajj. I could imagine a revenge terrorism plot to attack Hajj pilgrims on 9/11 such as using drones to disperse anthrax or something. *sigh* I am so ashamed that I could even imagine such a thing; what has our world become?
9
Vjr:
Are you serious? In your imagination, who carries out your scenario and why? Revenge? Has this been done? Why now?
Are you serious? In your imagination, who carries out your scenario and why? Revenge? Has this been done? Why now?
4
It will be interesting to hear what Trump has say if this Muslim holiday does fall on 9/11. My bet is he will not be using any teleprompters in the days before and he will be rubbing his hands together in glee.
Any reason to celebrate this. Yes, the Republican party will be burnt toast for at least 15 years.
Any reason to celebrate this. Yes, the Republican party will be burnt toast for at least 15 years.
13
Nightwood:
You may have to "bet" that Trump will be rubbing his hands in glee. We don't have to " bet" with you, though, do we? You tell us you will celebrate if an American political party becomes burnt toast. Lovely sentiments.
You may have to "bet" that Trump will be rubbing his hands in glee. We don't have to " bet" with you, though, do we? You tell us you will celebrate if an American political party becomes burnt toast. Lovely sentiments.
Leave Trump out of this. It is about 9/11 and what happened to all Americans on that awful day. Pretty soon you will all be blaming Trump for the fall of the Roman Empire. Grow up
4
Nothing Trump says us EVER interesting.
1
They are right, the Muslim communities in the US. It is a good thing to be aware of the what your own actions mean to other communities around you. It is in my mind the better way of living in a plural society like the US.
It does not mean that they need to change the date for their Holliday or anything of that sort. How to deal with it, and what to actually do or not do can be decided on a per community basis.
It correct to assume that some people will say that Muslims are celebrating 9/11. It is also correct to assume that some Muslims will. Both attitude are, to my mind, wrong but being aware of the dilemma is what will make this 9/11 anniversary pass in peace.
It does not mean that they need to change the date for their Holliday or anything of that sort. How to deal with it, and what to actually do or not do can be decided on a per community basis.
It correct to assume that some people will say that Muslims are celebrating 9/11. It is also correct to assume that some Muslims will. Both attitude are, to my mind, wrong but being aware of the dilemma is what will make this 9/11 anniversary pass in peace.
23
I'd go with the Costanzas. Call it Festivus and celebrate however you like.
24
So can you respect and treat Muslims well and understand that most are peaceful, but still fear Islam and fear an important part of it's teachings, and understand that it can lead to violence and intolerance?
That it is doing that around the world?
I believe you can, yes, but you must be careful to whom you speak and what you say.
That it is doing that around the world?
I believe you can, yes, but you must be careful to whom you speak and what you say.
34
There is nothing wrong with criticizing Islam, at all. There is, however, a fine line that "some people" cross quite often; the line that separates those who criticize the religion and its teaching with those who turn into rabid xenophobic bigots the moment they get the opportunity to voice their opinion(s).
20
I live downtown. I watched the towers comes down. I lost friends. I breathed that dust for days, longer. It has been 15 years. Let people do what they want to do. Those who want to mourn and take note - and I am one - are free to do that. Those who have their own holidays can and should celebrate them. The premise of this article again conflates mainstream Islam with the terrorists who took down the buildings. Stop it already. Let people live their lives.
134
Unfortunately the terrorists used Islam as the rationale for 09/11 and saddled the rest of the believers with this cross to bear. Islam globally has manifested itself as an intolerant religion through millennia hence the feelings of many has basis of facts underlying the fear.
While being gracious that your belief in tolerance should be practiced it should be a two way street. One sees little of an internal discourse in Islam to change its opinion on non believers especially against non monoestehtic religions. If you read some of the opinions of even moderate thinkers and philosophers of Islam it is very medieval it its practice of intolerance.
Unfortunately this opinion and behavior has significant impact on countries and people globally who continue to beari the brunt of this intolerance at great cost.
While being gracious that your belief in tolerance should be practiced it should be a two way street. One sees little of an internal discourse in Islam to change its opinion on non believers especially against non monoestehtic religions. If you read some of the opinions of even moderate thinkers and philosophers of Islam it is very medieval it its practice of intolerance.
Unfortunately this opinion and behavior has significant impact on countries and people globally who continue to beari the brunt of this intolerance at great cost.
15
The other premise is that we should all, especially Muslims, do the sackcloth and ashes thing on 9/11. No. I'm very sorry for the dead and one of my brothers, then in the news industry, was one of the few to rush towards Ground Zero from New Jersey, but fifteen years after Pearl Harbor we had basically moved on.
Time for us to allow those, like Paul to grieve and remember, and for those whose holidays fall on 9/11, to celebrate freely, if that is their desire. And not to make a big deal of whether there is a mosque near Ground Zero, which reads a bit like whether a Japanese should be allowed to live in view of Pearl Harbor in 1947.
Time for us to allow those, like Paul to grieve and remember, and for those whose holidays fall on 9/11, to celebrate freely, if that is their desire. And not to make a big deal of whether there is a mosque near Ground Zero, which reads a bit like whether a Japanese should be allowed to live in view of Pearl Harbor in 1947.
4
Dear Paul,
Hope this message finds you well. I'm a freelancer from China. I read your words and would like to contact you. If it is convenient, I really hope to write an email to you.
Thank you so much.
Best regards,
Tim Ye
Hope this message finds you well. I'm a freelancer from China. I read your words and would like to contact you. If it is convenient, I really hope to write an email to you.
Thank you so much.
Best regards,
Tim Ye
May I suggest that our Muslim brothers perhaps make the day which Mr. Abdul Bhuiyan said, “a day of remembrance and observance,” about 9/11.
Those of us non Muslims who do not blame the Muslim religion for the horror of 9/11 (and I would like to think that we are a growing number) should also publicly welcome the sincerity of the Muslim community's embrace of love for all people.
We must all put aside the lying bigotry against Muslims.
If you disagree, please look at the history of the Muslim culture over the centuries. We Christians should look with admiring envy at their record with minorities and only wish we could have one as good.
Let us, for once, allow peace and tolerance to rule the day.
Those of us non Muslims who do not blame the Muslim religion for the horror of 9/11 (and I would like to think that we are a growing number) should also publicly welcome the sincerity of the Muslim community's embrace of love for all people.
We must all put aside the lying bigotry against Muslims.
If you disagree, please look at the history of the Muslim culture over the centuries. We Christians should look with admiring envy at their record with minorities and only wish we could have one as good.
Let us, for once, allow peace and tolerance to rule the day.
32
The Muslims involved in the 9/11 attack said it was due to their religion, so what makes you or any one else not believe them? If you read the Koran you will see that these terrorists were following the demands of the Koran! That many who call themselves "modern" Muslims are not supporting the terrorist Muslims does not mean the religion is not responsible for the actions of the terrorists. In the same light, a lot of Roman Catholics no longer believe there is a hell, but the whole premise of Christianity is that there is a cosmic war between a god and a devil over who will get human "souls" after death! And that premise has caused the paranoia that led to centuries of religious wars between the numerous Christian sects, as well as the wars against Islam. Islam had and obviously still has that paranoia that leads to death, death, death because a human mind that believes in devils trying to drag it to a hell will strike out at any one it believes is working for said devils! Religious beliefs are more powerful than you have imagined. Islam starts with the story of an illiterate merchant in Arabia saying he went into a cave and then heard voices tell him to "write" what became the Koran. A billion people think this is true! I do not think we should celebrate such "cultural beliefs" any more than we should celebrate a culture that thinks a god sent a savior to earth to save humans from a devil...a devil this god created in the first place!
8
I understand where you are coming from, but the comment about the treatment of minorities requires a reply:
Jizya tax is a tax that is placed upon non-muslims for being non-muslim and not being killed, if you don't pay the jizya, your property is taken, you are expelled, or worse.
In the Ottoman Empire, the Christian children were seized and given as warrior slaves to the Sultan, these sons were converted, circumsized and placed in a military unit called the Janisaries. They preferred Bulgarian, Greek and other European Christians. Not until the military unit was considered prestigious (the slave army was loyal and received rewards for this) did non-Christians want to apply for membership... but up unti l then, it was strictly a slave army of christians used to fight internal enemies of the sultan.
In judicial proceedings, non-muslims could not testify in court against a muslim, they had no ability to sue for grievances against muslims among other things.
In conquered parts of Europe (currently Bosnia and Kosovo) local Christians were expelled and murdered to make room for muslim colonists in an effort to change the demographics of the are to a muslim majority - this is called ethnic cleansing today. Armenian Christians were routinely murdered and expelled as were minorities across the caliphate of the Ottoman Empire.
google: jizya, Janissary blood tax, ottoman empire legal code, ottoman empire colonization of kosovo and bosnia
look around, get enlightened.
Jizya tax is a tax that is placed upon non-muslims for being non-muslim and not being killed, if you don't pay the jizya, your property is taken, you are expelled, or worse.
In the Ottoman Empire, the Christian children were seized and given as warrior slaves to the Sultan, these sons were converted, circumsized and placed in a military unit called the Janisaries. They preferred Bulgarian, Greek and other European Christians. Not until the military unit was considered prestigious (the slave army was loyal and received rewards for this) did non-Christians want to apply for membership... but up unti l then, it was strictly a slave army of christians used to fight internal enemies of the sultan.
In judicial proceedings, non-muslims could not testify in court against a muslim, they had no ability to sue for grievances against muslims among other things.
In conquered parts of Europe (currently Bosnia and Kosovo) local Christians were expelled and murdered to make room for muslim colonists in an effort to change the demographics of the are to a muslim majority - this is called ethnic cleansing today. Armenian Christians were routinely murdered and expelled as were minorities across the caliphate of the Ottoman Empire.
google: jizya, Janissary blood tax, ottoman empire legal code, ottoman empire colonization of kosovo and bosnia
look around, get enlightened.
6
Nikolas - I will review again the points you make, but ask you to google the earlier history involving the Spanish Peninsula. How both Christians and Jews thrived under Muslim rule, and what happened when the Catholics took over. A word to look up, if you need help, "Inquisition".
There are many other examples. And while what you say about the Ottoman Empire is partially true, this pales compared to what we Christians were doing, particularly against Jews in the same period of time (and, of course, through the mid 20th century - google Genocide.)
There are many other examples. And while what you say about the Ottoman Empire is partially true, this pales compared to what we Christians were doing, particularly against Jews in the same period of time (and, of course, through the mid 20th century - google Genocide.)
Of course people are concerned that lone-wolf types might use the confluence of a Muslim holy day with 9/11 to justify acts of violence.
It would be foolish not to at least consider the possibility that a non-Muslim might use the day to attack Muslims or vice-versa.
But should Muslims change their observance in any way? In my opinion, absolutely not.
Instead, we should realize that although none of us were involved with planning and carrying out 9/11, we're all--Muslims and non-Muslims--in this together and we have to work--together--through these things.
I appreciate the Muslim community's sensitivity to the feelings of non-Muslims and I'm positive any American aware of it feels the same way. We non-Muslims, in return, must ensure that Muslims are made to feel comfortable and safe as they celebrate.
It would be foolish not to at least consider the possibility that a non-Muslim might use the day to attack Muslims or vice-versa.
But should Muslims change their observance in any way? In my opinion, absolutely not.
Instead, we should realize that although none of us were involved with planning and carrying out 9/11, we're all--Muslims and non-Muslims--in this together and we have to work--together--through these things.
I appreciate the Muslim community's sensitivity to the feelings of non-Muslims and I'm positive any American aware of it feels the same way. We non-Muslims, in return, must ensure that Muslims are made to feel comfortable and safe as they celebrate.
24
Honeybee:
What do you mean when you say " we non Muslims must ensure that Muslims are made to feel comfortable and safe as they celebrate"? How do you, Honeybee, intend to do that? Do you not extend this duty to all of us toward all others at all times? I'll assume you do. So, again, your specific intent for this day?
What do you mean when you say " we non Muslims must ensure that Muslims are made to feel comfortable and safe as they celebrate"? How do you, Honeybee, intend to do that? Do you not extend this duty to all of us toward all others at all times? I'll assume you do. So, again, your specific intent for this day?
4
I am not "comfortable" with the religious traditions based on the words of a 7th century merchant claiming he was told by "agents of a god" -while this merchant was alone in a cave!- to write down a book creating these traditions, amongst which traditions and rules was the demand to violently strike against all "non-believers" in this "voices in a cave" stuff? And have you noted that this particular religious tradition coming up, this year, on Sept 11th, is celebrated at the first showing of the crescent moon? A moon - god tradition...in these days? It would be cute and colorful if it were not for the traditions in the Koran calling for death to the non-believers, specifically, Jews and Christians. Okay, many Muslims do not take that last bit seriously, but those in, for example, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan who had become "modernized" have been killed by the hundreds of thousands by Muslims who do take the Koran literally and seriously!
7
A friend of mine (co-worker) is going to slaughter a cow for the occasion, but he was also quick to point out that it extends from Sept 11 through the 12th, actually. He said when they do this they donate 1/3 of the meat so I am expecting some wonderful cuts of steak. Praiseworthy? For sure.
10
Ha!
1
It's sad that so much killing goes on in the name of an assumably loving god.
It's OK, after so many centuries, if two religions, or two sects, don't get along; but, when will they realize that one side brains nothing by tearing the other down.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
It's OK, after so many centuries, if two religions, or two sects, don't get along; but, when will they realize that one side brains nothing by tearing the other down.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
4
151,600 people die each day of the year around the world.
Enjoy your 'holiday'.
Enjoy your 'holiday'.
32
Socrates: Then we should never celebrate because one day we shall die? No. Go read Ecclesiastes.
1
What is your comment supposed to mean? What does the number of people dying each day have to do with a Muslim observance? Are you implying that Eid al-Adha will cause people to die? Please explain.
4
And it's estimated that 353,000 are born each day.
2
When it comes to the stupidity of fear, there is no limit to the stupidity.
September 11th is a day that has come and gone for millennia without having any relationship to any particular group or event, and it still has no particular relationship to any particular group.
For most of the world, September 11th is just another day in the calendar.
September 11th is a day that has come and gone for millennia without having any relationship to any particular group or event, and it still has no particular relationship to any particular group.
For most of the world, September 11th is just another day in the calendar.
18
Not if you live near New York City.
46
It certainly should not be "just another day" for any American.
9
33,000 Americans are killed by guns each and every year. Maybe we should do something about that instead of turning 9/11 into some American Day of Hate and Intolerance.
6
While I understand some people will take a moment to reflect on this day, it doesn't mean everyone is required to do so. What's next? You're not permitted to celebrate your birthday, wedding anniversaries, etc. because it happens to fall on a particular day in history. No one should have to adjust their entire life to please the sensitive few who can't move on from this. The entire city and country has moved forward from this day. NYC is happily making money by renting the office space and promoting it as a tourist destination. The surrounding stores and restaurants are enjoying a second life. There is still Happy Hour at various venues. People live in all of new residential buildings. Schools have been built. This is all within the immediate vicinity of where the Twin Towers once stood. 15 years is more than enough time to move forward with your life after you lose someone. If you can't, there is help out there for you - just reach out.
22
and compassion is out there to, try to understand that many many people are still hurting from this, happy hours and all.
26
Scott: the families got a gigantic taxpayer payoff plus their share of charity, especially the cop/fire families (remember Giuliani's relentless shilling for a fund that would only benefit a fraction of families?). If they are hurting, at least they hurt under luxurious circumstances, for they are no longer part of the 99%.
1
The Imam is making the right decision in inviting other non-Muslim community members. In opening up the holiday it will, as the article said, help create more bridges of understanding to lessen the hate and fear people have towards Muslims. Seeing as the holiday is originally a day of remembrance and celebration of sacrifices made by Abraham, everyone's minds can extend to members of the NYC community who have made sacrifices and who continue to make sacrifices to keep NYC a safe place for people of all backgrounds and beliefs.
25
This article is a fine example of what my mother calls "borrowing trouble." I thought the Times had more pressing things to write about, but obviously not.
40
Maybe Americans should feel bad about electing the wife of an ex-president who failed to make capturing bin Laden a priority, and instead plunged Washington into scandal that paralyzed the nation and made the presidency of George W. Bush possible.
9
Dear B. Mull,
I don't. Bill Clinton thought of bin laden as just another deranged terrorist in the 90's like we ALL did, those of us who'd even thought much about the embassy bombings in Tanzania. He probably also thought Lewinsky was just another casual fling that wouldn't become an impeachment hearing, like most of us probably would. Let it go, is what I'm saying here.
I don't. Bill Clinton thought of bin laden as just another deranged terrorist in the 90's like we ALL did, those of us who'd even thought much about the embassy bombings in Tanzania. He probably also thought Lewinsky was just another casual fling that wouldn't become an impeachment hearing, like most of us probably would. Let it go, is what I'm saying here.
30
B. Mull Irvine - A grasping at straws so silly it can only mean the reported desperation in the GOP is real.
26
It was W and his gang of clowns that paid no attention to the warnings given to them by the outgoing Clinton Administration. Condi had more important things on her mind. The 9/11 tragedy became the excuse for putting those things into action. Mull it over.
4
Muslims should celebrate their holiday as they usually would. People who suggest they should change the date to "show compassion" by celebrating on another day are suggesting that all Muslims somehow bear responsibility for 9/11. They don't and they're not responsible, just as all Christians are not responsible for violent acts committed in the name of Christianity, and all Jews are not responsible for all violent acts committed in the name of Judaism.
We have a word for holding responsible an entire group for the actions of a few: bigotry.
We have a word for holding responsible an entire group for the actions of a few: bigotry.
162
Nathan B. NYC - The article suggests that those who might disparage Muslims for their holy day are irrational, it simply notes that irrational disparagement is as bothersome as the rational version.
3
A large part of this article is dedicated to the concerns of Muslims and their assumptions about non-Muslims. While you are quick to label non-Muslims "bigots", what is your label for these Muslims and their assumptions about all non-Muslims?
Why shouldn't the concerns of non-Muslims be given consideration and treated with equal respect?
Why shouldn't the concerns of non-Muslims be given consideration and treated with equal respect?
2
Name me the terror acts committed in the name of Judaism and Christianity recently. ? It's good to live in the present.Not like our President who invoked the Christian crusades era, when in a serious dicsussion about modern religion in modern times.This was at a prayer breakfast a few years back..
4
Oh, for God's sake!
19
How silly and sensitive is this country going to become? This is a matter of no significance whatever except for those who like to over dramatize everything.
60
Mike Murray MD, I wonder if you'd be singing the same tune if you or loved ones were in NYC that beautiful September morning, the day we all understood that our world became our worst nightmare, instead of in Olney, Illinois. If you can't understand the sentiment in this article you should at least refrain from virtually calling the rest of us drama queens for not being able to forget that day, the dead and the traumatized forever.
8
These little towns in the Midwest supply the volunteer soldiers who fight these wars. We continue to have losses.
1
The numerology worries are understandable, but as a non-Muslim New Yorker who was deeply scarred by 9/11 "itself", I would say, it's no big deal to me if Muslims celebrate Eid al-Adha two weeks from today.
The sentient ones among us, which many New Yorkers are, do not blame all Muslims for 9/11. The crazy ones that do, hate Muslims all the time, and will not be more bothered by a poorly timed Eid celebration.
Further, I think the terrorists will not make any special attacks. There have been major attacks on many days since, but not on any of the 9/11 anniversaries so far. And this year, there have been terrorist attacks somewhere in the world every single day, two weeks from today will be no different.
Next time our primary elections happen to fall on 9/11, I believe we'll hold them on that day, for the same seemingly arbitrary reasons religious schedules have.
Overall, when it comes to terrorist attacks, by jihadists or white supremacists or whoever, we tend to be pretty dim about predicting them. Since the Orlando attack, I have seen Counterterrorism NYPD officers stationed at a GMHC storefront office along my walk to work, more often than not, presumably on the assumption that people will attack it. This is nonsense, the terrorists tend to attack unguarded sites, unpredictably.
So I'm saying, don't sweat it. I bet Trump doesn't even notice or spout nonsense about it. Giuliani's forgotten the original 9/11 even happened.
The sentient ones among us, which many New Yorkers are, do not blame all Muslims for 9/11. The crazy ones that do, hate Muslims all the time, and will not be more bothered by a poorly timed Eid celebration.
Further, I think the terrorists will not make any special attacks. There have been major attacks on many days since, but not on any of the 9/11 anniversaries so far. And this year, there have been terrorist attacks somewhere in the world every single day, two weeks from today will be no different.
Next time our primary elections happen to fall on 9/11, I believe we'll hold them on that day, for the same seemingly arbitrary reasons religious schedules have.
Overall, when it comes to terrorist attacks, by jihadists or white supremacists or whoever, we tend to be pretty dim about predicting them. Since the Orlando attack, I have seen Counterterrorism NYPD officers stationed at a GMHC storefront office along my walk to work, more often than not, presumably on the assumption that people will attack it. This is nonsense, the terrorists tend to attack unguarded sites, unpredictably.
So I'm saying, don't sweat it. I bet Trump doesn't even notice or spout nonsense about it. Giuliani's forgotten the original 9/11 even happened.
22
PS: GMHC stands for Gay Men's Health Crisis, an organization begun shortly after the AIDS epidemic, which has branched out since then in providing care. That's their theoretical connection, that since a loner attacked a gay club, another one a thousand miles away would attack something where the G stands for gay. This is nutty to me.
3
Giuliani will never forget 9/11, and you know it.
1
Never mind 911, it's coinciding with Eid al-Adha is inconsequential to mature adults. Yes immature adults will throw tantrums but they throw tantrum generically.
What is and should be concerning to people interested in seeing this world progress forward is, how only under cover of religion, can people "celebrate" a "holy" day that marks a proposed religiously authorized murder. The very idea ought to raise the hairs on the back of human necks, and instill a stomach turning sense of just how backward we remain as a species.
If your neighbors summoned the authorities because you were out front of your home in process of sacrificing a human to some god you've been talking to, you best be found to be play acting. Because if not you will be summarily shot. And rightly so.
What is and should be concerning to people interested in seeing this world progress forward is, how only under cover of religion, can people "celebrate" a "holy" day that marks a proposed religiously authorized murder. The very idea ought to raise the hairs on the back of human necks, and instill a stomach turning sense of just how backward we remain as a species.
If your neighbors summoned the authorities because you were out front of your home in process of sacrificing a human to some god you've been talking to, you best be found to be play acting. Because if not you will be summarily shot. And rightly so.
18
My advice: Celebrate your holiday as usual. Perhaps add a prayer for the victims of 9/11.
9/11 was not a Muslim crime; it was a crime perpetrated by Muslims. They were self-appointed representatives of Islam, but American Muslims did not support or condone their terrorism. Donald Trump's ugly lies notwithstanding, they were grieving with the rest of us, not dancing on imaginary rooftops.
To turn their backs on their own religious celebration would be to take on an unearned burden of guilt.
9/11 was not a Muslim crime; it was a crime perpetrated by Muslims. They were self-appointed representatives of Islam, but American Muslims did not support or condone their terrorism. Donald Trump's ugly lies notwithstanding, they were grieving with the rest of us, not dancing on imaginary rooftops.
To turn their backs on their own religious celebration would be to take on an unearned burden of guilt.
119
"American Muslims did not support or condone their terrorism."
5% of Muslim Americans give the terrorist organization, al Qaeda, a favorable rating.
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/12/17/little-support-for-terrorism-among-mu...
Yes, 5% is surely a small percentage, but your assertion, that no Muslim Americans support or condone terrorism, is false. Unless of course you are privy to some studies and/or knowledge that is not available to the public? Feel free to share it with us.
5% of Muslim Americans give the terrorist organization, al Qaeda, a favorable rating.
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/12/17/little-support-for-terrorism-among-mu...
Yes, 5% is surely a small percentage, but your assertion, that no Muslim Americans support or condone terrorism, is false. Unless of course you are privy to some studies and/or knowledge that is not available to the public? Feel free to share it with us.
25
If there are 1.5 million Muslims in the US and .05 admit to supporting al Qaeda, then we are talking about 75,000 people. It's something about which to think, especially as the number of people admitting to this support are understated.
4
What's your point? I bet a greater percentage of Christian Americans would agree to wiping Muslims off the face of the Earth if Trump stumped for it. There are crazies and troublingly uninformed people everywhere, and if you haven't noticed, they're getting pretty numerous around the country.
4
You don't alter religious holy days because they fall on days that happen to have dreadful significance to others. We wouldn't move Christmas from Dec. 25th to some other date if a hideous tragedy befell a Muslim country on that date.
Don't question their religious observances. Just hope that they can observe them in peace ... for everyone.
Don't question their religious observances. Just hope that they can observe them in peace ... for everyone.
95
Dear Richard Luettgen,
Good points, and the tsunami that killed around 230,000 people in Indonesia (many were Muslim) happened on 12/26, close enough. Christmas still gets celebrated every year, and I don't think Indonesia is terribly offended by that (or I hope not).
Good points, and the tsunami that killed around 230,000 people in Indonesia (many were Muslim) happened on 12/26, close enough. Christmas still gets celebrated every year, and I don't think Indonesia is terribly offended by that (or I hope not).
11
Irregardless of what one thinks about celebrating a muslim holiday on the anniversary of the 9/11 tragedy, at least here in the USA, comparing a tsunami to purposely flying planes in to buildings is just comparing apples to oranges. 9/11 was a man made terror event while a tsunami was not.
18
Dear Scott,
We were talking about hideous tragedies, rather than specifically terrorist attacks, and both these events were tragic.
We were talking about hideous tragedies, rather than specifically terrorist attacks, and both these events were tragic.
1
The Battle of Vienna started on September 11, 1683.
This was the beginning of the end of Ottoman expansion into Europe.
This was the beginning of the end of Ottoman expansion into Europe.
41
Jp Michigan - Do you have a point? The Ottomans were a political/cultural entity, not a theology.
6
Apparently, you do not understand the history of the Middle East. The demise of the Ottoman Empire allowed the region to be colonized.
@tawanda7:"Apparently, you do not understand the history of the Middle East."
As I said it was the beginning of the end of Ottoman expansion into Europe.
As I said it was the beginning of the end of Ottoman expansion into Europe.
I never expected to see the day when the New York Times spun the September 11 attacks as something that makes Muslims feel unfairly bad about themselves.
124
Dear Andrew,
I don't believe they're spinning it. It sounds from the interview as if Muslims in America are worried about this coincidence and how it will be viewed, and it pains me deeply that they feel they should worry about that.
I don't believe they're spinning it. It sounds from the interview as if Muslims in America are worried about this coincidence and how it will be viewed, and it pains me deeply that they feel they should worry about that.
37
why did it pain you? should we not all consider sensitivities of our bretherens?
1
Dan Stackhouse:
They are Americans. They should, at a minimum, think about incorporating some recognition of that disaster into their ceremony -- just as almost every single American has had to do since then.
They are Americans. They should, at a minimum, think about incorporating some recognition of that disaster into their ceremony -- just as almost every single American has had to do since then.
3
On 9/11, we really need to focus on the victims from that day (some of whom were Muslims). It is our national day of mourning. Even now - we have first responders who are battling major health issues because of their service that day. These are the stories this newspaper should focus on. The people in this story are not the victims.
91
Rufus W. Nashville - 911 by itself is a minor event in history. What makes it big is the horrendous follow up by the US. It ought to reverse commemorate the worst foreign policy decision in US history.
9
Dear Rufus W.,
I agree, but the people in this article are the victims of American bigotry and distrust that resulted from 9/11, and this story is important too. Also it's August 28th, the article is not overshadowing any mourning.
I agree, but the people in this article are the victims of American bigotry and distrust that resulted from 9/11, and this story is important too. Also it's August 28th, the article is not overshadowing any mourning.
9
They can both be bad...
2
It is sorrow that my friend has returned home to retire. Our farewell was spoken in a language of our own, a laugh about new beginnings, terms of endearment exchanged. When I moved earlier from New York to the country, she would write 'how are you?'. She was the one who called when I was enjoying a solitary Christmas.
My heart was pounding a bit these days last, but she managed to call from the airport. Safe, I thought. I never expected this to happen in America but it did. It has taught me never to take anything for granted. We are now at a far greater geographical distance, but closer than ever. Thank you, Samantha Schmidt, for reminding me that Eid al-Adha is being celebrated this week just in time to send my friend greetings on the occasion of being at home again, for at the end of the day, the rest is in the hands of God.
My heart was pounding a bit these days last, but she managed to call from the airport. Safe, I thought. I never expected this to happen in America but it did. It has taught me never to take anything for granted. We are now at a far greater geographical distance, but closer than ever. Thank you, Samantha Schmidt, for reminding me that Eid al-Adha is being celebrated this week just in time to send my friend greetings on the occasion of being at home again, for at the end of the day, the rest is in the hands of God.
4
Muslims need to calm down. They're still far behind Jews in terms of the number of hate crimes directed against them. And after the Jews, it's gay people. Asians and Muslims are about tied.
As for Donald Trump, he doesn't speak for most Americans, not by a long shot. At least, I hope not.
(Interesting, of course, that in the Hebrew bible, in the story of the Akedah, it's Isaac, not Ishmael, whom Abraham is willing to sacrifice, and whose place is taken by a ram.)
As for Donald Trump, he doesn't speak for most Americans, not by a long shot. At least, I hope not.
(Interesting, of course, that in the Hebrew bible, in the story of the Akedah, it's Isaac, not Ishmael, whom Abraham is willing to sacrifice, and whose place is taken by a ram.)
49
B. Brooklyn - Yes and in "The Hobbit" Bilbo finds a golden ring forged in the fire of Mt Doom that makes the wearer invisible. All very interesting stuff.
4
Your competitive spirit amazes me. Oppression is not a sport, and it's okay for me to say this to you because I'm black and therefore number one in the hate crimes categories. Ridiculous.
11
I think Kim's right, sorry. Further, lately deadly hate crimes against Muslims in America have been much more frequent than those against Jewish people, though not as much as those against Black people.
Also, CK, that golden ring was really really cool though, but problematic as I recall.
Also, CK, that golden ring was really really cool though, but problematic as I recall.
2
“Our community is like, ‘What are we supposed to do?’”
How about show compassion and Celebrate on another day? Maybe September 10th or 12th... Can religious believers not understand nor make alowances for special circumstances?
How about show compassion and Celebrate on another day? Maybe September 10th or 12th... Can religious believers not understand nor make alowances for special circumstances?
67
That is an absolutely ridiculous suggestion. Would you ever propose that Christians celebrate Christmas or Easter (or maybe switch Ash Wednesday to Ash Thursday?) or Jews celebrate the High Holy Days on any days other than those prescribed by the religion?
36
rhartman Atlanta - There is a reason they refer to theological holy day as an, "holy day of obligation." It's compulsory. We could just as easily commemorate 911 on another day.
7
To Rhartman: If it turned out that December 25th was a sensitive day for a non-Christian group, would you recommend that Christianschange the day of observation? There is (in my opinion) only one way forward-put aside the tribal instincts and realize that we all live together on this small planet.
In this gorgeous country, which Abraham Lincoln correctly identified ..."as the last best hope of mankind...", we came together as one people, not identified or crippled or otherwise handicapped by our past or our relatives. In this gorgeous country, if you are a hard-working, honest citizen, we ALL AGREE that is all we ask of you - that you pull your weight, contribute to the common good and mind your own business.
Muslim Americans are AMERICANS. When this particular religious observance is based on the calendar, it is not for non-Muslims
to tell them to change the date.
I live in a neighborhood in NYC with a large Jewish population (full disclosure, I am "unaffiliated"), and I have witnessed, firsthand, that on certain High Holy Days, not only have additional police officers been dispatched to stand outside synagogues, but ordinary non-Jewish neighbors have stood outside the synagogues to insure that observers were not disturbed.
That, to me, is not only what makes this country "exceptional" but what makes it the last best hope of mankind. Go to your neighborhood Mosque, ask the Imam if there is anything you can do to help your Muslim neighbors observe their holiday.
In this gorgeous country, which Abraham Lincoln correctly identified ..."as the last best hope of mankind...", we came together as one people, not identified or crippled or otherwise handicapped by our past or our relatives. In this gorgeous country, if you are a hard-working, honest citizen, we ALL AGREE that is all we ask of you - that you pull your weight, contribute to the common good and mind your own business.
Muslim Americans are AMERICANS. When this particular religious observance is based on the calendar, it is not for non-Muslims
to tell them to change the date.
I live in a neighborhood in NYC with a large Jewish population (full disclosure, I am "unaffiliated"), and I have witnessed, firsthand, that on certain High Holy Days, not only have additional police officers been dispatched to stand outside synagogues, but ordinary non-Jewish neighbors have stood outside the synagogues to insure that observers were not disturbed.
That, to me, is not only what makes this country "exceptional" but what makes it the last best hope of mankind. Go to your neighborhood Mosque, ask the Imam if there is anything you can do to help your Muslim neighbors observe their holiday.
60
Religion survives only through indoctrination of children, before their brains have developed enough for reason, logic and critical thinking.
Sam Harris nailed it. "Religion allows billions to believe things only a lunatic could believe on his own."
Dead men coming back alive; riding a winged horse on a round trip night journey to heaven. We now know that for the mass majority of our species, our brains are not fully developed until we are in our mid to late 20's. Wait until our children are in their mid twenties before talking to them about religion and see how many conversions we get.