Regarding the adoption situation, the writer should know that one mandatory part of all adoptions in the U.S. is a home study, part of which includes an in depth interview with prospective adoptive parents both individually and together. If the writer is honest about his feelings during this process, the social worker who is writing up the home study will at the very least recommend that the couple seek further counseling before proceeding, or in the worst case scenario (or maybe the best case from this man's perspective) be denied eligibility as candidates for adoption. So his hand will be forced - unless he is crafty enough to elude the perceptions of a trained adoption professional (unlikely in my opinion and experience as an adoptive father).
1
LW1: It seems they are playing games with each other, each waiting in hope that the other will eventually change their minds. I agree with the 100 or so other commenters who said they should talk openly and come to some kind of decision (likely a divorce).
LW2: Tell him all you know. If he’s an intelligent adult, he can arrive at intelligent conclusions. Withholding important info because you’re worried he might “blame mom” for his father’s death is patronizing. And it contributes to the idea that there is shame in mental illness. Depression and addiction can be genetic, and he needs to know.
LW3: The comments are all very interested to read, but in the end, it’s best to consult with a competent attorney regarding what choices to make here. Also, I find your father’s disinterest in his own long term needs troubling. Is it possible he plans to sell the house, pay off his (perceived) debts and then commit suicide?
LW2: Tell him all you know. If he’s an intelligent adult, he can arrive at intelligent conclusions. Withholding important info because you’re worried he might “blame mom” for his father’s death is patronizing. And it contributes to the idea that there is shame in mental illness. Depression and addiction can be genetic, and he needs to know.
LW3: The comments are all very interested to read, but in the end, it’s best to consult with a competent attorney regarding what choices to make here. Also, I find your father’s disinterest in his own long term needs troubling. Is it possible he plans to sell the house, pay off his (perceived) debts and then commit suicide?
4
Adoptive dad here. When my wife and I were at the end of ten years of treatment for infertility and working through the whole issue of adoption, I came face to face with some profound and discomfiting doubts about my ability to love a child to whom I had no genetic connection. I don't know if this is one of the issues Letter Writer 1 is struggling with, but it was a big one for me.
Part of what helped me over the hump was a simple epiphany: I didn't have any genetic connection to my wife, either, but I loved her like crazy. While a parent-child relationship is vastly different from a spousal one, the common denominator is durable love, and I had a track record of loving someone whose bloodline I did not share, and through thick and thin at that. So we went into the adoption process together and ended up parents after all.
I have earned advanced degrees, academic awards, and professional accolades, but no title or label means as much to me as "dad." I know that may sound rather pollyannish, and I don't intend for a second to minimize all the Sturm und Drang that goes into being a father, but Letter Writer 1 might really want to try to re-balance whatever factors are weighing so heavily on him and see if the result doesn't change in favor of love and flexibility as opposed to the fear and rigidity that possess him now.
Loneliness going into middle and then old age is no bed of roses; more like a Bed of Procrustes, which may be how he's currently viewing parenthood.
Part of what helped me over the hump was a simple epiphany: I didn't have any genetic connection to my wife, either, but I loved her like crazy. While a parent-child relationship is vastly different from a spousal one, the common denominator is durable love, and I had a track record of loving someone whose bloodline I did not share, and through thick and thin at that. So we went into the adoption process together and ended up parents after all.
I have earned advanced degrees, academic awards, and professional accolades, but no title or label means as much to me as "dad." I know that may sound rather pollyannish, and I don't intend for a second to minimize all the Sturm und Drang that goes into being a father, but Letter Writer 1 might really want to try to re-balance whatever factors are weighing so heavily on him and see if the result doesn't change in favor of love and flexibility as opposed to the fear and rigidity that possess him now.
Loneliness going into middle and then old age is no bed of roses; more like a Bed of Procrustes, which may be how he's currently viewing parenthood.
16
Adoption:
Being in a relation once of not being totally open and honest for what ever reasons is not being respectful to yourself or partner. You two must sit down and talk openly and honestly about yourselves and your relationship...please for you own sanity's, it is needed. The chips fall where they will and just may surprise you.
Being in a relation once of not being totally open and honest for what ever reasons is not being respectful to yourself or partner. You two must sit down and talk openly and honestly about yourselves and your relationship...please for you own sanity's, it is needed. The chips fall where they will and just may surprise you.
2
Alcoholism and depression are primarily brain disorders: physical ailments. Yes, they have behavioral consequences -- but so do all ailments -- a cold induces you to change your behavior and stay in bed. Alcoholism and depression may be worsened by situations, but they have large genetic components. The nephew needs to be aware of the chance that he has inherited these genes from his father, so that he can plan his life appropriately. Failing to tell him would just be encouraging him to hide what he needs to think about and be open about with his loved ones, so that they can all prepare honestly. The information should be imparted with no sense of blaming either the dead father or the living mother, no more blame than one would attribute to blue eyes or left-handedness.
2
The adoption situation is not a matter of ethical counseling, it screams a need for marriage counseling.
This is a marriage devoid of honesty.
To say the marriage has a high chance of failing is understatement.
No child should ever be thrust into such a fatally flawed marriage.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
This is a marriage devoid of honesty.
To say the marriage has a high chance of failing is understatement.
No child should ever be thrust into such a fatally flawed marriage.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
17
1) The guy whose wife wants to adopt is playing it slippery, even with us. It's very vague as to whether his wife knew before their marriage that he didn't want kids. Now she does, and he admits that the marriage is over. But he wants to be seen as a "nice guy" with this passive-aggressive behavior. He makes it clear that he knows what to do, he simply doesn't want to take responsibility for being "the bad guy", which he IS only because he's lying to her. In doing so, he's hurting her future, which is extremely selfish. Put on your big-boy pants and do what needs to be done.
2) As to the person with the elderly father, I advise buying the house from him and using the money to care for him, if it's possible to do that yourself. You don't have to tell him that's what your intention is, you can just do it. And don't feel guilty; he's putting you in a terrible position with his behavior. Be sure to get an attorney to see if this is doable vis a vis his care needs and legalities and your sibs. What's left over from the sale after he dies can be split with your sibs if you feel like it. In this situation, you have to do what feels necessary for you to be comfortable with yourself. Please give up the angst and do what you feel is right. If it ends up being impossible, you will have done the best you could.
2) As to the person with the elderly father, I advise buying the house from him and using the money to care for him, if it's possible to do that yourself. You don't have to tell him that's what your intention is, you can just do it. And don't feel guilty; he's putting you in a terrible position with his behavior. Be sure to get an attorney to see if this is doable vis a vis his care needs and legalities and your sibs. What's left over from the sale after he dies can be split with your sibs if you feel like it. In this situation, you have to do what feels necessary for you to be comfortable with yourself. Please give up the angst and do what you feel is right. If it ends up being impossible, you will have done the best you could.
7
It seems like the children of the stubborn dad should accept the funds gracefully, then invest the money wisely in some kind of trust fund that will be used to pay for his care when the time comes. If he dies without needing the funds, the agreement could spell out how the funds are redistributed proportional to the original contributions.
10
I'm an adoptee-and continually amazed at how selfish people can be. Yes, it's all about you ! Adoption should only be about the true needs of a child. Husband and wife are both acting unethically.
6
Yes, it is of course, not all about the adoptive parents, but they are the ones trying to make the decision whether to become parents through adoption. It is a real act of faith to adopt and they have to be sure they really want to take on a child and are ready to be parents. Clearly, this couple has to get clearer and be honest about how they really feel, before they can be ready to adopt.
1
As an adoptive father I agree with you, but I would generalize it to all parenting, not just adoptive. This is not advocacy for helicopter parenting, or the kind of parenting that says a child's desires and needs must always reign supreme. But a child--as a wholly dependent human being--must always be considered first. If someone is going into parenthood looking to it as a source of happiness or fulfillment then they're going into it for the wrong reasons. Happiness or a sense of meaning may be by-products of parenting, but they may prove elusive too. The goal of parenting is to help shepherd another human being (or two, three, or more...) towards mature lovingkindness, towards an adulthood of bringing goodness into the lives of others. It is worthy, even essential, work.
3
Regarding T.M. and disclosing her brothers medical history, remember that depression and the related alcoholism can be considered medical issues, potentially life threatening. In digging into his father's life, health, and related issues, awareness of mental health issues a consequential as these can shed immense light, and help, on anything his son may now or later be experiencing and trying to reconcile. Don't underestimate how embarrassing digging into his own mental health might be, how challenging it is to discuss, and the myriad indirect ways he might be trying to gather important and relevant information.
2
This week The Ethicist presents three substantive, societally relevant ethical conundrums.
7
Having children is life altering. I was dragged kicking and screaming into fatherhood. It worked out fine as I was happy, maybe because I had sons. Her desire to have a child should not be viewed as supreme to his desire not to have a child. It's no different from 1 party wanting to live in the suburbs and the other in the city, also life altering. He should just tell her he is not going through with it and let her decide if having a child means more to her than having him.
10
Perhaps the elderly father of LW 3 knows all too well what he wants. It may not be self-reliance that informs his actions, but a desire to die and join his wife. By forgoing care under the guise of paying back debts, he can protect his children from knowing what's really in his heart.
5
LW2...Not telling your nephew the true cause of his father's death and his history of depression is also withholding vital medical information from him. Depressive illness can be familial as well. You are participating in the common practice of viewing mental illness as something shameful. It is not. He needs this information. The truth may be sad but it is the right way to go. His father may not have had time to die from a cardiac emergency...his death from suicide does not rule out his carrying a familial cardiac history.
13
Re: Telling the nephew about his father's suicide. I would tell the nephew, but I would not imply, as does the writer, that the father's drinking and depression was a result of his divorce. By saying that the suicide was "caused by depression and alcoholism that followed the failure of his marriage," the writer implies that "but for" the divorce, his brother would still be alive, and thus would give the nephew reason to blame his divorced mother for the death. It may well be that the deceased father suffered from alcoholism and depression long-before the divorce, and in fact those conditions may have contributed to the ending of the marriage.
29
Well said.
6
Wife wants to adopt: Tell her no and mean it. She may not believe it but you need to make it clear that you aren't going to participate in the process or, most importantly, adopt any child. Imagine, if you will, that your application is successful. Then what will you do? Will you trash the joy of a needy child?
While I understand your wife's desires and sympathize. She should never have married or stayed married to you once she was aware that you did not want children. Your desire to remain childless is understandable but you were wrong to marry her or stay married to her. Pretending to go along is mean and cruel. In the end she will resent you for disappointing her.
It will be a sad and bitter old age...filled with recriminations and regret. Stop it now while both of you still have some time.
While I understand your wife's desires and sympathize. She should never have married or stayed married to you once she was aware that you did not want children. Your desire to remain childless is understandable but you were wrong to marry her or stay married to her. Pretending to go along is mean and cruel. In the end she will resent you for disappointing her.
It will be a sad and bitter old age...filled with recriminations and regret. Stop it now while both of you still have some time.
13
Concerning the adoption question..
It sounds like you're pretty sure the marriage is over, so it probably is.
You should sit down with your wife ASAP and tell her you are not going to participate in the adoption. At that point, she has no question about your thoughts etc -- and can make a decision on her own.
For what it's worth, I have several single female friends in their 40s who are raising children they adopted while single. If your wife wants to be a parent, she can do so on her own.
It sounds like you're pretty sure the marriage is over, so it probably is.
You should sit down with your wife ASAP and tell her you are not going to participate in the adoption. At that point, she has no question about your thoughts etc -- and can make a decision on her own.
For what it's worth, I have several single female friends in their 40s who are raising children they adopted while single. If your wife wants to be a parent, she can do so on her own.
12
Leading your wife along only to pull the rug out at the last minute is simply cruel. Grow a spine and develop some character. Tell the truth.
23
Who could accept only from their father under these circumstance? But the solution is simple, place the money in an account to be used for his care.
9
First, it would be helpful to be able to comment on each letter separately. Regarding the third letter, what this family needs is better legal advice. The general ethical conundrum here is whether it is ethical to impoverish yourself in order to qualify for MediCAID (not MediCare) to pay for your nursing home. Many people have no problem doing this, and the NY Times could devote an entire issue of the magazine to stories of formerly wealthy people who "Spent down their assets" so they could qualify for MediCAID to pay for their nursing home. If Dad gives all his money away at 84 and does not need a nursing home until age 90, he will qualify for MediCAID at age 90. If he needs a nursing home prior to the expiration of the five year look-back the family would have to pay until the penalty period expires. If Dad is repaying loans he received from family members to pay for his wife's medical expenses, those repayments are not gifts. The letter writer who depleted their savings to care for their mother should be repaid. The letter writer should also seek better legal advice.
12
#1 - Both parties are being "horribly manipulative and deceitful." The husband should speak up and knock off the passive-aggressive behavior, and the wife should stop ignoring her husband's decision not to have children. The adoption should proceed only through a joint and honest decision.
9
#3 - if the elderly father was a wartime veteran and has sufficiently low income, he may qualify for a VA pension benefit plus an Aid and Attendance supplement if he needs help with daily tasks.
6
#3. Tell Papa that he can satisfy his want to pay back by willing you and yours the house, and you'll take possession and make the sale after his death.
18
I am an adoptive parent, so I feel very touched by the first email. I hope he tells his wife as soon as possible. She can go ahead with the adoption process on her own. She can adopt as a single parent. How despicable that you are just playing along writing essays and preparing for the process if you dont want to do it... parenthood is scary, but one must be convinced. Otherwise, honesty please.
18
I was in the identical situation the adoptive father describes, including possessing personal insecurities rapidly cured when the adopted child arrived. I understand all too well what he must be feeling and speculating about, but he is imprisoned in a clutch of needless fear.
Your wife, like mine, is likely a kind and generous woman, whose generosity extends to anyone. The centerpiece of her hopes and dreams involve showing that same kindness to a child who becomes part of you and her. Without your consent to adoption, her view of the world and her expectations of marriage to you are shattered.
Just as important, I would say you hold misconceptions about having a child and raising a child and merely speculate about dislocations and other problems that sometimes arise when raising a child. Your misconceptions, as were mine, have to do with emphasizing speculative challenges as though they are real, to the exclusion of the moments of joy and happiness you actually will experience in being a parent, however rich or entitled or successful you've been so far. These happy moments with a child are the ones you remember.
Embracing the idea of being a parent dissolve speculative fears, insecurities, and hesitations you have now and change you when the child actually comes to live with you. Ignore the condemnation found in many comments here and see if counseling with your wife helps, and see if you can imagine owning the same happiness your wife is proposing for you.
Your wife, like mine, is likely a kind and generous woman, whose generosity extends to anyone. The centerpiece of her hopes and dreams involve showing that same kindness to a child who becomes part of you and her. Without your consent to adoption, her view of the world and her expectations of marriage to you are shattered.
Just as important, I would say you hold misconceptions about having a child and raising a child and merely speculate about dislocations and other problems that sometimes arise when raising a child. Your misconceptions, as were mine, have to do with emphasizing speculative challenges as though they are real, to the exclusion of the moments of joy and happiness you actually will experience in being a parent, however rich or entitled or successful you've been so far. These happy moments with a child are the ones you remember.
Embracing the idea of being a parent dissolve speculative fears, insecurities, and hesitations you have now and change you when the child actually comes to live with you. Ignore the condemnation found in many comments here and see if counseling with your wife helps, and see if you can imagine owning the same happiness your wife is proposing for you.
7
You really don't know if he will embrace fatherhood once a child is in the house. Some people simply do not want children - it's not selfish or unnatural, it just is. Yes, he is being manipulative and deceptive - but so is his wife, going ahead with an adoption knowing fully he does not want to be a parent. Counseling may help, but I agree this marriage is probably doomed, as one will feel resentful no matter what decision is made regarding adoption.
10
Re the adopting/not adopting couple. There is no love there and no marriage. The husband's words condemn him for they show that is his cruel and manipulative. He suggests that he controls the whole situation and is secretly planning to pull the plug on the process with his only dilemma being when to do that. If he has any care at all left for this woman and any integrity, he should not only stop the adoption process immediately, but also file for divorce.
20
I have four simple words for those who think it's always best to keep a family intact and not deal with adoption: Baby Bella, Boston Massachusetts. A prime example within the last year of an infant who should have been removed from an "intact" family. Found beaten to death by the mother's BF and tossed in a garbage bag in Boston Harbor.
Intact families, indeed.
Intact families, indeed.
14
If someone doesn't want kids it's dishonest to write application essays etc. State firmly that you do NOT want to adopt. If it means divorce, the one wanting to adopt can do so as a single parent.
30
The first letter writer says "he never wanted children." Was his wife aware of this before they got married? Surely this is something that should be discussed before marriage and is a potential deal breaker. Later in the letter he says he doesn't want to adopt which seems somewhat in conflict with his first statement. In any case, he should tell his wife now.
16
What the husband is doing is called "slow rolling." It's a common tactic in business, government and politics. Don't say no, just let the process drag on and hope the other person tires and quits. If you approach a school principal with a problem, they will say lets watch the situation for a couple of months knowing that in a couple months the school year ends. Doctors can blow off a complaining patient by " watching" the situation. Companies will keep your demands in limbo for months or even years. And courts can let a case drag on for years knowing litigants will give up and compromise. Still it's a crummy way to treat your wife. He might use the interval to get his finances I order because this marriage is over.
31
As to the father who wants to sell his house.
This is a complicated situation, and demands the services of a good attorney to make sure that no mistake is made. Some have said "put it in a trust", some have said "don't sell, you'll kill your Medicare," some have said, "sell, you'll be back on Medicare faster that way."
This is not the place for the questioner to get our amateur advice, not even from the writer of the column, who is not (I think) an attorney, and therefore an amateur as to these questions. It is the place for the questioner to hire a competent attorney and get competent advice that is geared to the particulars of the case (including the state in which the father resides).
This is a complicated situation, and demands the services of a good attorney to make sure that no mistake is made. Some have said "put it in a trust", some have said "don't sell, you'll kill your Medicare," some have said, "sell, you'll be back on Medicare faster that way."
This is not the place for the questioner to get our amateur advice, not even from the writer of the column, who is not (I think) an attorney, and therefore an amateur as to these questions. It is the place for the questioner to hire a competent attorney and get competent advice that is geared to the particulars of the case (including the state in which the father resides).
25
It seems that what makes this an ethical question rather than a legal one is that she said that she has already consulted an attorney, but neither her father nor her family members care more about the consequences of disregarding the attorney's advice than their own disastrous definitions of what is ethical. Isn't she asking what, then, a person should do? I have been wondering about this and really do not know. I wonder, if no one will listen, should she walk away?
4
Buy the house from the father with the agreement that the house be sold and proceeds divided equally after the father's death (get it all in writing), e.g., figure out amicable details to satisfy the law, pride, and finances (what's it matter if the money is left now or later?).
5
It doesn't seem like that's an option. The daughter wrote that she no longer has any savings, having spent through that money for her mother's care. And that the father is adamant about selling to repay family members. It seems that 1) she cannot afford to buy the house and 2) any proceeds that the father receives from the sale of the house to anyone will be used by the father to repay the willing family members, thus disqualifying him from Medicaid. It seems that the ethical question that no one has addressed is whether or not it is ever ok for a son/daughter to walk away. I'm really wondering about this question.
3
The first letter writer is already done with his marriage. He will hold up the adoption as the reason for the end, but it is already over. He clearly doesn't want to be married to his wife. So why not be honest with his wife and tell her now, once and for all? Because he's selfish and entitled. I hope his poor wife finds out soon so she can divorce and find a new spouse.
As an adoptive mom, I can rest assure the letter writer that it seems he is making the best decision for himself and any future child. He clearly doesn't want to parent.
As an adoptive mom, I can rest assure the letter writer that it seems he is making the best decision for himself and any future child. He clearly doesn't want to parent.
20
If children are going into debt to pay the expenses of an elderly parent, then monies going back to them upon the sale of the home might well be considered debt repayment, not gifts.
Regarding the nephew looking for information on his father's death, death certificates in NYC and other places no longer disclose cause of death unless permission was granted in advance. The nephew has a right to know about his father's depression as it is often hereditary and it is also the truth.
Regarding the nephew looking for information on his father's death, death certificates in NYC and other places no longer disclose cause of death unless permission was granted in advance. The nephew has a right to know about his father's depression as it is often hereditary and it is also the truth.
5
The very purpose of the death certificate is to indicate the cause of death. There is a place for the immediate cause - e.g. cardiac arrest, and secondary causes such as atherosclerosis, and the duration of those conditions. It is a public health document which has social and economic factors attached to it - insurance, heritage, etc.
I was adopted in the 1950's by a father who wanted children and mother who did not. Soon after my adoption, my adopted mother had what was later explained to me as a "nervous breakdown". My care was taken over by my aunts until my mother "recovered". Looking back on her erratic and abusive behavior toward me, I don't believe she ever did. While I understand the circumstances behind why my birth mother gave me up for adoption; now in my 60's, I continue to have difficulty understanding why I was brought into a family where I wasn't 100% wanted. LW needs to be honest with his wife.
45
While I agree with the bottom line answer on the adoption case I reject the putting the title horrible on the husband's behavior. I find the wife's conduct of pushing the issue over her spouse's announced objections far worse. Expecting a spouse to indulge one's little wants is part of being married. Expecting someone in their forties to devote the next twenty years to a child they don't want is absurd.
25
Having a child is not a little want.
3
Yes, that's exactly what Todd Stuart was saying.
2
Regarding the ill-advised adoption, surely the would be mother understands that she will not be allowed to adopt as a married person if her husband is not a willing and interested partner in parenthood. It sounds to me that both the husband and the wife need to have an honest acknowledgment that their marriage is over, that they want different things. She can adopt on her own as single person, or possibly have a child on her own with or without a second husband.
The caregiver daughter must have an open discussion with her father AND her siblings that by repaying money he feels he owes, he is compromising not only his future healthcare needs but also placing his children in the position of having to assume unnecessary financial burdens they simply cannot afford unless they are committed to being destitute in their own retirement. This is a difficult conversation to have with a parent who has provided, as mine have well into adulthood, but the simple facts are that most middle aged people today will be working longer than their parents did out of necessity due to the financial hits many of us took during the Great Recession but also previous periods of economic downturns such as in the mid-1980s and during the tech bubble. I have made it clear to my parents that they can relocate to where I now live when they can no longer live on their own but it is impossible for me and my husband, short of a miracle job offer, to relocate to their community.
The caregiver daughter must have an open discussion with her father AND her siblings that by repaying money he feels he owes, he is compromising not only his future healthcare needs but also placing his children in the position of having to assume unnecessary financial burdens they simply cannot afford unless they are committed to being destitute in their own retirement. This is a difficult conversation to have with a parent who has provided, as mine have well into adulthood, but the simple facts are that most middle aged people today will be working longer than their parents did out of necessity due to the financial hits many of us took during the Great Recession but also previous periods of economic downturns such as in the mid-1980s and during the tech bubble. I have made it clear to my parents that they can relocate to where I now live when they can no longer live on their own but it is impossible for me and my husband, short of a miracle job offer, to relocate to their community.
16
The nephew absolutely should be told the cause of death and his father's medical issues: depression and alcoholism. Perhaps the father's drinking and/or depression contributed to the divorce but worsened afterwards. Perhaps this contributed to the alienation from the husband's family. Does the LW know for sure that the nephew has not be told anything more by his mom than that his grandfather had an arrhythmia?
In any case, illnesses like depression and alcohol abuse likely have some genetic component--which is not completely understood. Substance abuse also puts one at increased risk of suicide and of other illnesses such as certain types of cancer. The nephew should be advised of his risks so he can make his own decisions accordingly.
The uncle is depriving his nephew of needed information by not disclosing the facts of the dad's death and health issues. This is not akin to failing to disclose a truly accidental death with no lead up of chronic health problems. The information is essential to the health behavior and lifestyle choices the nephew makes going forward and can affect both him and his own loved ones--perhaps a spouse, partner, children etc.
In any case, illnesses like depression and alcohol abuse likely have some genetic component--which is not completely understood. Substance abuse also puts one at increased risk of suicide and of other illnesses such as certain types of cancer. The nephew should be advised of his risks so he can make his own decisions accordingly.
The uncle is depriving his nephew of needed information by not disclosing the facts of the dad's death and health issues. This is not akin to failing to disclose a truly accidental death with no lead up of chronic health problems. The information is essential to the health behavior and lifestyle choices the nephew makes going forward and can affect both him and his own loved ones--perhaps a spouse, partner, children etc.
16
The husband does not want to adopt and the wife is aware of this fact—they're actually a perfect match; each spouse is ignoring the fundamental rights of the other, as well as the right of their potential child to be wanted by both parents.
The husband's actions seem worse because he is dishonestly going through the motions of completing the preliminary adoption steps, when he has no intention of ever completing the process. In contrast, the wife is openly acting according to her true wishes, even if it means pushing adoption upon an unwilling partner.
The husband's actions seem worse because he is dishonestly going through the motions of completing the preliminary adoption steps, when he has no intention of ever completing the process. In contrast, the wife is openly acting according to her true wishes, even if it means pushing adoption upon an unwilling partner.
23
"In contrast, the wife is openly acting according to her true wishes, even if it means pushing adoption upon an unwilling partner."
AND based upon his behavior, she may assume that he is not enthusiastic, but loves her enough to go along and that he will "come around" once they have a cute little baby on board.
AND based upon his behavior, she may assume that he is not enthusiastic, but loves her enough to go along and that he will "come around" once they have a cute little baby on board.
5
I wish Philip Galanes had handled this one. Mr. Appiah is too emotional and judgmental in his response to the man who doesn't want children, shaming and condemning him for three paragraphs written in a conflicted state about a very difficult situation. Either show a little compassion to someone whose life will very likely be completely upended, or truly play the philosopher and dissect the ethical issues dispassionately.
18
So the ethicist should show more compassion to a guy who clearly has not only not the least bit of compassion for his own wife, lying to her face EVERY DAY while he sleeps with her every night but who is also a totally immoral, bold faced liar who is actively going out of his way to waste this woman's time? Filling out adoption forms slowly? What a joke. What a jerk.
Not wanting children is FINE, I mean folks should do what they want. But the utter deceit of his wife is so perfectly inexcusable and yes, shameful, that there is no redemption here. I mean, this is a man??? No, this is a childish adolescent who has no regard for others. My 8 year old is more compassionate and honest! He should get his butt off the couch and leave tomorrow. And then he can live his life the way he wants. Win-win.
Not wanting children is FINE, I mean folks should do what they want. But the utter deceit of his wife is so perfectly inexcusable and yes, shameful, that there is no redemption here. I mean, this is a man??? No, this is a childish adolescent who has no regard for others. My 8 year old is more compassionate and honest! He should get his butt off the couch and leave tomorrow. And then he can live his life the way he wants. Win-win.
5
To the husband who does. Not want to adopt:
Tell your wife. To deliberately cheat her - by sin of omission - fro the future she has told you she wants - is among the most supremely selfish acts there are.
They say "if you love someone, let them go".
LET HER GO!!!
In your case, not because you love her, but because -- As is clean from the extent/depth of your deception -- that you don't.
Tell your wife. To deliberately cheat her - by sin of omission - fro the future she has told you she wants - is among the most supremely selfish acts there are.
They say "if you love someone, let them go".
LET HER GO!!!
In your case, not because you love her, but because -- As is clean from the extent/depth of your deception -- that you don't.
33
Regarding the nephew who wants to know more about how his father died, it is possible that the death certificate won't reveal suicide. It is also possible that the nephew, who was deprived of contact with his father's side of the family, wants to know them better.
13
The issue confronting the man who does not want children is tough, but to wait until the adoption process is nearly complete or completed to then tell his wife that his feelings have not and will not change is cruel. Let her know now that you love her, but have no intention of becoming "a miserable family man" just to make her happy.
It seems as if his wife already knows how he feels, because even if he has not said as much in words, his actions speak volumes. And so there is a component of selfishness that comes along with being a women who wants a child and is getting closer and closer to that now or never point in life. However, it seems that if the husband never wanted children this should have been addressed before marriage or at least early on in the marriage. But since he knows they cannot have children of their own, means that at some point they were trying to conceive. So that complicates things. I have found that going along with something major to please others rarely works out. You may love your wife, but once that child arrives, if you don't love and want him or her as she does, the marriage is doomed and now an innocent child will be at the center of a divorce. And then everyone will be miserable.
It seems as if his wife already knows how he feels, because even if he has not said as much in words, his actions speak volumes. And so there is a component of selfishness that comes along with being a women who wants a child and is getting closer and closer to that now or never point in life. However, it seems that if the husband never wanted children this should have been addressed before marriage or at least early on in the marriage. But since he knows they cannot have children of their own, means that at some point they were trying to conceive. So that complicates things. I have found that going along with something major to please others rarely works out. You may love your wife, but once that child arrives, if you don't love and want him or her as she does, the marriage is doomed and now an innocent child will be at the center of a divorce. And then everyone will be miserable.
15
It is selfish for this husband to pretend to go along with an adoption that he will scuttle in the end. You said it: it's cruel! The wife may want it so bad she stays in denial about his disinterest in fatherhood. I agree with Kwame Appiah that they need to discuss this openly. She may then decide to move on, or give up being a parent. She deserves to make that choice in an informed manner. Sometimes things that are or aren't addressed before marriage come up later or change. That's life and this is where they are now. They need to deal with it, now. The sad (and perhaps interesting) thing is that sometimes people who think they don't want children become smitten and love them unconditionally once the child arrives (but no one should count on that!).
9
So true. I have seen plenty of instances where women chose to have a child knowing the man has no interest in being a father, only to end up a single parent when he doesn't want to be involved. It's a gamble either way, and if you know that being a parent is so important to you that you are willing and able to go it alone than you should do it. But if you are counting on having a partner there for support and shared responsibility throughout that child's life, than forcing that on someone is not the way to go.
12
For the most conscientious daughter, combining resources might work. Staring with inviting dad to come for an extended visit to see how that goes and--if he likes it--have him move in. He could contribute financially and maintain his independence and autonomy. Maybe the father could take out a reverse mortgage on his house to gain financial well-being until he passes. He can write in his will what each child receives.
2
It's easy to condemn the husband who does not want children. Which probably explains my point of view.
4
Your point of view is . . .? Apparently, it's that it is okay for you to get what you want but if your partner wants kids it's not okay for her to get what she wants. It's a conflict. He has a perfect right to not want to be a father but that doesn't mean her needs and wants are "wrong" either. No one is wrong about wanting or not wanting children. The wrong is him pretending to go along with the adoption knowing he will prevent it in the end. He needs to be completely honest, right now, and stop leading her on.
14
To wait until the last minute to tell the wife that the husband does not want to adopt, is simply cruel.
34
It is equally cruel for the wife to continue the adoption process when she knows her husband is unwilling. Cruel to the husband as well as to the child she intends to adopt. She is selfish in wanting to possess a child, indifferent to the potentially adverse effect on the child and on her husband.
11
The first writer has a marriage that is doomed and he may as well get out now. I never wanted children and declined to become involved with anyone who already had them or wanted them in the future. If he made that clear from the beginning and his wife refuses to accept it, then she should have known better. I would pity the child who would be unwanted by one parent and over-compensated by the other. Many people believe once the child arrives, the reluctant party will "fall in love". 99% of the time, the unwilling parent would be at best resentful and disconnected. The wife sounds selfish and domineering, interested only in indulging herself.
39
It sounds also like he is not telling her the truth. I was married to a man who said he wanted children before we married and then said he didn't afterwards. He then denied having said what I know he said. People change their minds, they sometimes lie, if only by omission, and they sometimes bury their heads in the sand. It's hard to know all the dynamics. I think he is wrong to lead her on and she's perhaps fooling herself because she wants a child so badly. By filling out the forms he's tacitly causing her to believe he will accept the adoption. In any case I don't think it fair to say she should have "known better," since we don't know if he was really up front about this earlier. He certainly isn't being up front now! I had a friend who was married to a man who said he wanted kids and failed to tell her he'd had a vasectomy before they wed! He told her when she was 38, after years of "trying" to get pregnant. Dishonesty about this can be devastating to a person who really wants children. I think the man is being incredibly dishonest and cruel to her.
25
I agree with Barbara. This man is engaging in a particularly heartless form of passive aggressive behavior.
6
Anyone who were to look properly into what goes on in the global adoption industry would be appalled.
If we truly cared about the welfare of children, then we would do everything in our power to rally round and support the mother of the child, who is up for adoption, or support the child's nearest living relative.
Only in the most extreme and unusual cases, is it necessary to take a child away from the child's mother or from the community to which the child belongs.
If we truly cared about the welfare of children, then we would do everything in our power to rally round and support the mother of the child, who is up for adoption, or support the child's nearest living relative.
Only in the most extreme and unusual cases, is it necessary to take a child away from the child's mother or from the community to which the child belongs.
9
As a parent of two adopted children, I am offended by your comment. What rational evidence do you offer that the situation described in this article extends to all cases of adoption?
17
Perhaps another option, for the writer and all siblings, is to take the money and set it aside in a trust for his future care.
16
In reference to the elderly father selling his house, it would be a good idea to learn the Medicaid laws of the state where he lives. In many states people are allowed to hold on to their houses and still be eligible. if he sells it he loses this benefit. He can live there and get help at home. The children may inherit more if he does not sell it. Where is he planning to live after the house is sold?
15
In all states, the state is entitled to recoup the cost of care by selling the house after the father dies. Where there is a married couple and one is living in the house and the other in a nursing home, the community spouse is legally entitled to keep the house for her lifetime, but it is subject to capture after the death of the second spouse.
It is immoral to "Medicaid Plan" ones assets so that the working class taxpayer is forced to subsidize the long term care of wealthy people who can afford to pay for their own care.
It is immoral to "Medicaid Plan" ones assets so that the working class taxpayer is forced to subsidize the long term care of wealthy people who can afford to pay for their own care.
6
I hope the wife dumps the anti-adoption husband ASAP.
He admits he wouldn't mind being alone and doesn't deserve to have a child.
Also, an innocent child deserves more than a father who doesn't even want a child. May the wife a future child find each other and have a great life together.
Best wishes to her.
He admits he wouldn't mind being alone and doesn't deserve to have a child.
Also, an innocent child deserves more than a father who doesn't even want a child. May the wife a future child find each other and have a great life together.
Best wishes to her.
17
Doesn't deserve? He doesn't want one. In his view, it would be punishment, so saying he does not "deserve" one is a compliment...
20
Did this couple marry knowing they disagreed about children and parenthood. When I was single I scoped out this question early, even before the relationship could be called a relationship. Why? Because I knew I didn't want children, then or ever. There was no reason to start a relationship with someone who wanted something so fundamentally different. Happily, I found someone whose vision matched my own - a loving spouse, a little house, a couple of dogs and good food.
16
you are playing at being the eternal child yourself. give your wife the respect she deserves and let her get rid of you first, and then decide if she wants to save a real child.
divorce over this very issue worked for me.
divorce over this very issue worked for me.
23
They're both at fault, in about equal doses. They also clearly want different things out of life. Probably doomed from the start
17
I see only one liar here. No one is "at fault" for wanting or not wanting children. He is lying to her by filling out forms, planning to stop the adoption at the end. Her wants and needs are as important as his but they have a time-limited nature. Maybe they never should have married but they did and they are where they are. She could leave him or give up motherhood, but how can she make an informed decision since he's covering up his real intentions?
11
They are both at fault, not for their opinions on children and adoption, but for their behavior.
The wife is "well aware" that the husband does not want to adopt (or so the husband says), but is going through the process anyway, without regard for his wishes.
The husband is playing along for now, only to pull the plug on it later, which is getting the wife's hopes up, and wasting the time/resources of the adoption agency.
Of course, we only hear the husbands side of the story, which is probably biased, but we don't know how biased.
The wife is "well aware" that the husband does not want to adopt (or so the husband says), but is going through the process anyway, without regard for his wishes.
The husband is playing along for now, only to pull the plug on it later, which is getting the wife's hopes up, and wasting the time/resources of the adoption agency.
Of course, we only hear the husbands side of the story, which is probably biased, but we don't know how biased.
2
I agree with the commenters who've said that for medical reasons alone, the nephew should be told about the true causes of his father's death. In addition, although it isn't what the LW asked, it seems to me the nephew's request for medical info about his father offers the opportunity to begin repairing an estranged relationship, which could be life-enhancing to both.
21
The first letter does not give enough information. When they married, were both the husband and wife aware that children were not in the picture? Or did events occur in the marriage that prevented children from being born. We only have the husband's side in this, but I think the age of the wife is important:if she is "young enough" to start a new relationship,does that mean she still is of childbearing age by normal means? Does the wife work, and is she happy? There is a big difference between a woman trying to fill a hole in her life with a child, and a woman who has found a means to have a child.
5
They are both in their 40's. It's easy to believe that a man who would have wanted children in his 20's and 30's would feel differently in his 40's
1
A friend of a friend was in the position that this man's wife is in re adoption. The husband went along with the adoption plans by signing the papers and at the same time telling her he had no interest in adoption or in being a father at all. He left right after the final papers were signed, having given her a bit of money with the understanding he would never be a father to the child in any way. She is now divorced and a single mother of a high energy, emotionally troubled son as well as the caretaker for aging profligate parents. She is miserable and perpetually broke. If this man continues on this path he may well find himself a father legally and financially. He needs to stop this process now.
19
If he legally adopted the child, he is now on the hook just as if it was his own biological child. I doubt if he can disavow his parenting responsibilities now. He should have left BEFORE signing those papers. What an idiotic move on his part. She is better off without him; he led her on. If I were her, I'd go after him for child support, for the child's sake.
4
RE: LW #1 - To wait until the last minute to tell your wife that you don't want to adopt, is simply cruel.
16
Regardless of the wife's fault in all of it (both, in my opinion), it is wrong to "play along". While it may be tit-for-tat with the wife if the husband plays along, a third party's time, effort, and money is being wasted by a phony applicant.
The son aught to know the truth. I don't know the finer details, but susceptibility to depression, alcoholism, and suicide may well be genetic. I offer no advice on how to tell him.
Tell the father to hold onto the money and repay it as an inheritance, and that his kids' paying it to him in the first place was repaying a portion of their debt to him. Maybe a power of attorney would work here, though it sounds like he is of sound mind so it might be hard to get. It seems old men (in particular) are very stubborn, and proud. This one has it in his mind that he's not going to ask for help, and that he's going to repay his "debts". It will be tough, but he's got to be convinced. Making decisions for him, without convincing him, will not yield a pleasant end to his life.
The son aught to know the truth. I don't know the finer details, but susceptibility to depression, alcoholism, and suicide may well be genetic. I offer no advice on how to tell him.
Tell the father to hold onto the money and repay it as an inheritance, and that his kids' paying it to him in the first place was repaying a portion of their debt to him. Maybe a power of attorney would work here, though it sounds like he is of sound mind so it might be hard to get. It seems old men (in particular) are very stubborn, and proud. This one has it in his mind that he's not going to ask for help, and that he's going to repay his "debts". It will be tough, but he's got to be convinced. Making decisions for him, without convincing him, will not yield a pleasant end to his life.
18
A power of attorney may not be enough. The father might have to be declared incompetent and a guardianship established. This is a lengthy and expensive process at best and would be made even more difficult if siblings disagree over the father's competency.
3
Adoption: hard to know who's more foolish, the husband for lying about his intentions or the wife for thinking of bringing a child into a home like that.
63
She thinks he is willing to let her adopt. He's lying by filling out the forms and pretending to be okay with it all the while planning to refuse at the end. What's that about? You don't know what kind of home they have, by the way, or what circumstances a future adopted child might escape by coming to them, which of course isn't happening because hubby is selfishly play acting. If they get to the final adoption point, and then he backs out she may leave him then. I would.
6
Non-Adoption: While I disagree with "The Ethicist's" position ("what you're doing is horribly manipulative"), you should confront your wife and tell her what you are thinking. You've already got your answer - you would rather be alone than be a miserably family man you don't want to be. Because that will also redound upon whatever child your wife brings into your life.
The Ethicist neglects the wife's actions in this, which are definitely manipulative: The wife is acting out a fantasy and since she "is very well aware that" the writer does not want a child.
The Ethicist neglects the wife's actions in this, which are definitely manipulative: The wife is acting out a fantasy and since she "is very well aware that" the writer does not want a child.
44
I agree. She should leave him now. He is a liar and doesn't care if he hurts her. Perhaps she is aware of his position and thinks he'll come around which is different than "acting out a fantasy." It would be different if he refused to fill out the papers and she went ahead with them anyway. He is pretending to go along "for now" which is cruel. They need honesty here. It needs to start with him. I don't see her lying. She's up front in her desires while he's planning to ambush her later.
6
Regarding the third question - perhaps an effective compromise would be to suggest that the father set up a living trust, rather than an outright gift/repayment of the money.
It would also be worth taking the father through the arithmetic of how much more expensive accepting the money might be to the child, once the Medicaid money is foresworn, and future contributions from child to father are factored in. Unless dad plans to live in a refrigerator box, that is.
It would also be worth taking the father through the arithmetic of how much more expensive accepting the money might be to the child, once the Medicaid money is foresworn, and future contributions from child to father are factored in. Unless dad plans to live in a refrigerator box, that is.
14
I am wondering about this. It seems that doing the math with the father or the other family members will not matter to them. The father insists he will not need care and the other family members have already shown that they will not show up for future problems no matter how great the needs are by the way they responded to the mother's care. I wonder, ethically, if it is ever alright for someone to walk away. The daughter has no means of caring for him herself, while they are knowingly creating a situation that will cut him of from the necessary resources. If the father and the other family members do not care about what this could mean for her, is it unethical for her to walk away?
1
I have a close friend who went through a similar late marriage adoption experience, with the additional complication being the wife was unable to be a reliable primary caregiver for medical reasons. It amounted to an irreconcilable difference. If it's the rock that breaks the marriage, better it happen sooner, so both husband and wife can begin rebuilding lives sooner.
To those who are name-calling - please, just stop. Adding an adoptive child to a marriage not constructed for one could equally be viewed as a unilateral change by the wife. Hard to imagine she isn't well aware of her husband's antipathy, given his heel-dragging. Her insistence despite his opposition is equally problematic. They've just grown apart, on a critical issue. It happens. Blame needn't be assessed.
To those who are name-calling - please, just stop. Adding an adoptive child to a marriage not constructed for one could equally be viewed as a unilateral change by the wife. Hard to imagine she isn't well aware of her husband's antipathy, given his heel-dragging. Her insistence despite his opposition is equally problematic. They've just grown apart, on a critical issue. It happens. Blame needn't be assessed.
75
" I know I will not go through with the adoption, but I am not sure when to pull the plug".....I think that says it all...as an adoptive parent I know the drill....home studies, meetings with social workers about why you want to adopt a child and endless, endless paperwork documenting again and again why you want to be a parent.....every task he completes in unspoken or spoken "protest" is another act that suggests to his spouse that he is moving toward meeting her desire for a child. All the work that goes into bringing a child home through adoption is really no different emotionally as all the work that goes into gestating a biological child. I know because I had my three children both ways. There is no shame in not wanting parenthood for yourself but to lead another down the path to parenthood with the full intent that you will "pull the plug" is nothing short of cruel. If and when he does pull the plug it will be a "death" of sorts for her as the child she is anticipating (vs expecting) will disappear. It is my hope that she has an aha moment before it is too late and moves on for this future child without this man. It is admirable that he recognizes his own in ability to parent but he should do the additional work to figure out if he is meant to be in a marriage. Doesn't sound like it to me. Wishing his spouse all the best....
33
Regarding the elderly father and repayment issues: Have him place the disbursed funds in several joint accounts ( banking or investment) with himself and each re-payee sharing an account. Then don't touch the accounts until he needs them. He will still have the money, and each of the children will have the money in the event of his death. The lawyer can figure out who should be paying the taxes, etc. Dad will feel that he has made repayment. and the kids can feel that anything left will be theirs with no squabbling.
9
If the sibs have the right to withdraw the money at will it would be a gift that affects Medicaid eligibility even if they don't touch it. The legal terminology is "constructive receipt".
2
On the father who refuses care - If he becomes ineligible for Medicare and develops a serious, chronic condition, he may end up costing the family more in the long run because of medical debts. So sad to see how common it is for the older generation to refuse help and care in the name of independence.
16
Regarding the childless couple -
It's easy and convenient to blame the letter-writing husband, however - as the saying goes - "It takes two to tango"...
It doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that the wife is fully aware of her husband's decision not to be a parent - yet she continues to march on in her determination to proceed with the adoption - forcing him to complete applications, write essays, etc. --
What we have here is a classic example of two people in a relationship (marriage) who are entrenched in a very dysfunctional - yet all-too-common - arrangement of extreme denial based upon the faulty assumption that --
"If only he/she would (change their mind, behavior, stop doing, start doing...etc.) then things would be better (aka I would be happy) ...
Guaranteed - there are hundreds of people who are reading this, while living with buried resentments (or in denial) towards their partners regarding an element of their relationship which - if faced with the truth - could force both parties to realize that their partnership is no longer tenable or viable --
When the Ethicist tells "NW" that - "You must know that what you’re doing is horribly manipulative and disrespectful." -- he ignores the wife's complete inability and denial of her husband's obvious cues regarding his feelings about the adoption -
Yes - the husband should tell his wife today - but she does bear responsibility for her part in this scheme of denial and deception...
It's easy and convenient to blame the letter-writing husband, however - as the saying goes - "It takes two to tango"...
It doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that the wife is fully aware of her husband's decision not to be a parent - yet she continues to march on in her determination to proceed with the adoption - forcing him to complete applications, write essays, etc. --
What we have here is a classic example of two people in a relationship (marriage) who are entrenched in a very dysfunctional - yet all-too-common - arrangement of extreme denial based upon the faulty assumption that --
"If only he/she would (change their mind, behavior, stop doing, start doing...etc.) then things would be better (aka I would be happy) ...
Guaranteed - there are hundreds of people who are reading this, while living with buried resentments (or in denial) towards their partners regarding an element of their relationship which - if faced with the truth - could force both parties to realize that their partnership is no longer tenable or viable --
When the Ethicist tells "NW" that - "You must know that what you’re doing is horribly manipulative and disrespectful." -- he ignores the wife's complete inability and denial of her husband's obvious cues regarding his feelings about the adoption -
Yes - the husband should tell his wife today - but she does bear responsibility for her part in this scheme of denial and deception...
47
I don't agree. The wife has made it plain what her intentions are--she is planning to become an adoptive parent. By making this plain,and by inviting him to be a party to the process, she is implicitly stating that his choice is to participate or separate. it is the HUSBAND who is playing games here, not the wife.
9
Obvious cues? How about actual discussion and truth telling? Not everyone gets the same ideas from "cues." One of his cues is signing those papers: an obvious cue that he is willing to adopt! I don't see equal culpability here. He needs to come clean right away. When he fills out a paper about the adoption he is leading her to believe that his will go through with it. She cannot be "fully aware" of his intentions because he is hiding his plan to "pull the plug." He knows it will be painful for her and he might lose her. Yes, she wants a child very much and she may be avoiding thinking about his reluctance because he pretends to have accepted the idea. That is different than deception on her part.
7
On the second question regarding the father's cause of death Mr. Ethicist, please bring your medical knowledge up to date--both depression and alcholosism are diseases that have genetic components. Your nephew definitely does not have all the medical information he needs. stress can exacerbate arrythmias through various biochemical reactions and depressional can cause stress. Therefor please consider adding accurate medical information to your response.
Additionally witholding medical information, a kind of silence and deception does not come close to an ethically appropriate response in most situations and certainly not when a living human beings medical conditions and health future are involved.
Additionally witholding medical information, a kind of silence and deception does not come close to an ethically appropriate response in most situations and certainly not when a living human beings medical conditions and health future are involved.
67
Adoption: the husband is lying to his wife each and every time he "goes along with" the steps of adoption. As a woman in her 40's, his wife is already going to have limited options. His postponing her adoption plans may mean she doesn't wind up with the opportunity at all. He needs to tell her immediately. I adopted, as a single, at 40. I am so glad I did not listen to the people who tried to talk me out of it. Being a parent has been the best experience of my life. I hope his wife reads this.
71
Re: the adoption. As an adoptive parent myself, I have see too many couples/families fall apart because the husband/dad "went along" with the adoption to please the wife. In one case the dad left within two weeks of the child's adoption. Even if things go smoothly, the "I never wanted to adopt" excuse is the rationale for leaving the marriage and family as soon as things get a bit challenging. Do not bring a child into this situation. Give your wife the gift of your total honest and candor and let her decide the next steps -- go childless or leave you.
106
Re: the husband who doesn't want to adopt. His story is a template for how to be passive-aggressive. I agree with all who say "tell her and leave so she can get on with the parenthood she longs for." Re: Nephew. If LW's brother died relatively young of suicide, who knows whether he would have developed a heart problem eventually? Sounds like the men in the family are definitely at risk, but of course LW has no way of knowing. We can only hope the death certificate is accurate. I'm not sure they always are. And finally, as to the elderly father. If the money the children spent on him was a loan that he's repaying, I don't see how that can affect the Medicaid "look back" though the paperwork would have to be in good order. A trust could be a good solution. But in no event should everyone relax with the thought "well he can't really need care for long." My father-in-law lived to 91; mother-in-law to 95; and two old friends are still alive at 97. Dad could be alive for a decade or more.
18
Exactly re the father paying back the children: the paperwork would have had to be in order. It is pretty clear from the fact that an attorney has already been consulted that this is not the case. A cautionary lesson for those less far along in the letter writer's situation. If money is advanced it may be wise to draw up loan documents even if in the end they end are torn up.
adoption: i don't see enough information here to know whether the husband is being more "horribly manipulative" than the wife. if he has always been honest that he does not want children, and she has gone along with it before initiating this adoption process, then she is the one being horribly manipulative. he has said that he is waiting to see if his feelings can change, which is also honest, not manipulative. he is writing now because he realizes that his feelings will not change, and now the wife is getting deeper into the application process. it sounds like she is the one who is in denial, and she is the one who is manipulative. people who know they don't have what it takes to be a parent are not always in the wrong. they know themselves, they are trying to save their spouses and potential children a lot of misery and alienation, and they have plenty of other ways to contribute to society and even to child welfare particularly. in this case he is going to pay a terrible price, his marriage, and if he has always been honest it is not his fault but his wife's. i simply don't understand the judgment here.
25
If he'd always been honest about not wanting children, he would have no need to ask if he needed to stop "playing along" with his wife's wishes to have children.
16
Why would you marry someone who doesn't want children if you do? I think Husband and wife are equally dishonest.
8
Media always tells women that men will chane their minds when the babies show up. Not so in real life...
6
The clown who doesn't want children should tell his wife immediately. Female fertility declines rapidly in the thirties, and by delaying he is possibly taking from her the chance to have biological children as well as adopted children.
18
He's already told he before they married. What does she not understand about 'I don't want children?' Duh!
12
She is entitled to have a change of heart and unfortunately he's pretending to "reluctantly" go along with adoption. He should stop that. Also, he said they couldn't have children of their own (how'd they learn that?) and that he never wanted any. He DOES NOT say he told her this before they married. Considering his under-handed way of handling the adoption process, i.e. signing papers while planning to "pull the plug, later, perhaps he hides his thoughts and plans from her in many ways.
3
LW1 needs to have a brutally honest conversation with his wife. He says that she is very well aware that he does not want to adopt a child so the fact that she is pursuing this is unconscionable. The fact that he is not actively refusing to go along with the plan is unconscionable as well.
Is the marriage going to fail? Probably. And it should. If LW's wife feels that her desire for children makes her position morally superior to her husband's, she is wrong. While he is also wrong for not being honest with her, he will probably be better off without her.
It's not ethical to play along, nor is it ethical to try to force children on someone who does not want them. Our culture does a great job of that on its own.
Is the marriage going to fail? Probably. And it should. If LW's wife feels that her desire for children makes her position morally superior to her husband's, she is wrong. While he is also wrong for not being honest with her, he will probably be better off without her.
It's not ethical to play along, nor is it ethical to try to force children on someone who does not want them. Our culture does a great job of that on its own.
60
We have a couple, one of whom is infertile. We don't know which. We don't know how long they've been married, or when they discovered this inability to have children. (Quite often this discovery happens when a couple postpones childbearing until the wife has passed childbearing years.) So much is going on here that in addition to an ethicist, I would recommend couples counseling to unravel all the complexities.
12
Prof. Appiah is absolutely right that the father of the last letter is treating his own family like strangers. It is not kind to never accept help yet require others to accept your help (when they your children, growing up), and never allow them to repay the care. This is not just pride but a fundamental misunderstanding of our relationship to others -- and it is a very hard, cold way for this father to view the world, and his own sons & daughters. This is true even without going into the practical side of it regarding Medicaid, which of course makes it even more bonkers. I feel sad just reading about the mindset of this man.
23
But I was brought up with the saying "the river only runs in one direction." My grandmother helped me, my mother helped my children and now I'm helping my grandchildren. My daughter asked "How can I pay you back?" I replied "By helping your grandchildren. That's how I'm paying my mother back for helping you when you were young. That's how my mother paid my grandmother back for helping me when I was young."
How about that?
How about that?
4
Ms. Feral, That is fine until you run into the legal reality that under our present laws the only way the government is going to pay any nursing home bills or other expenses covered only by Medicaid (not Medicare) you cannot pay yourself is if you do not help your children or grandchildren in the few years before you need that government help. Otherwise your progeny will may find themselves on the hook for whatever money you gave them which presumably they used to satisfy needs they had at the time of the gift.
My head is spinning. NO ONE who does not passionately want kids should have them. That's how hard it is to be a parent and how important it is to put your heart and energy into parenting without reservation.
My father did not want or love me or my brother. The pain of that reality deadens over the decades, but it does not end. Do not do this to a child.
The husband avoiding confrontation on adoption MUST tell his wife the full truth NOW. If he falls into adopting passively against his wishes, he will irreparably harm three lives forever. To fail to tell his wife the blunt truth now would be evil (not a word to use lightly).
My father did not want or love me or my brother. The pain of that reality deadens over the decades, but it does not end. Do not do this to a child.
The husband avoiding confrontation on adoption MUST tell his wife the full truth NOW. If he falls into adopting passively against his wishes, he will irreparably harm three lives forever. To fail to tell his wife the blunt truth now would be evil (not a word to use lightly).
91
He's already told her; she's 'failed' to listen.
15
by signing the papers, his actions speak louder than words. she thinks he is "coming around." He needs to tell her the truth.
6
It's okay to not want children.
It's not okay to withhold this fact for even 1 hour more from a spouse who desperately wants to have a child.
Every hour the wife isn't told is an hour stolen from her future.
It's not okay to withhold this fact for even 1 hour more from a spouse who desperately wants to have a child.
Every hour the wife isn't told is an hour stolen from her future.
126
I agree with you but I have known women who want a baby so desperately that they ignore plain statements of fact from their partners. He needs to be unequivocal, refuse to sign anything and probably work out how to divorce in a civilized way.
6
He told her already, she does not want to believe it...
7
What part of "She is very well aware that I do not want to adopt a child..." did you - or her - not understand?
6
This last letter is extremely concerning to me. There are unacknowledged legal issues here. This situation must prompt a report to Adult Protective Services or whatever equivalent agency exists in their community. This is a vulnerable elder highly susceptible to irreversible financial harm. To accept money from him in this situation could be considered exploitation or elder abuse. The fathers decisional capacity must be addressed. This situation needs a different kind of attention than you recommended, law enforcement evaluation is of a potentially criminal situation.
43
Nothing in what is written of this situation implies the need for an elder abuse report. Making such a report could result in an unnecessary investigation that would be disruptive and frightening to the very elder you claim needs protection.
12
It is clearly a poor decision on the father's part to insist on repaying his children, while ignoring the potential consequences should he become ill. However, apart from your inexplicable recommendations to involve law enforcement and Adult Protective Services, I think there is an unspoken assumption here: An 84 year old man who makes poor financial decisions and can't envision himself ill enough to need care must inevitably be of unsound mind. Ask yourself whether you would jump to the same conclusions if he were 54. My guess is that you might be just be calling him stubborn and foolish -- not implying he was demented.
One more thing: If the father insists on going ahead with his plan, selling his house and reimbursing his children, what's to prevent them from investing the money and using it if their father requires care in the coming years? Not a perfect solution, but better than nothing. Of course, the writer may be the only member of the family who would actually save the money for her father's potential use. And that's an entirely different question.
One more thing: If the father insists on going ahead with his plan, selling his house and reimbursing his children, what's to prevent them from investing the money and using it if their father requires care in the coming years? Not a perfect solution, but better than nothing. Of course, the writer may be the only member of the family who would actually save the money for her father's potential use. And that's an entirely different question.
2
If this were my patient I would be under a legal duty to report this case to Adult Protective Services. I'm in California. This man's judgement and problem solving are poor enough to warrant further evaluation. It's never easy to do this, but often essential, and even if everything is cleared for the patient to make his own decisions, the process often helps troubled families work through the issues. Again, if something bad happened to him and I had not reported it, I would have absolutely not legal (or moral, in my own mind) defense.
4
A parent with a history of completed suicide and alcohol addiction are also vital parts of someone's medical history.
The idea that cardiac history alone is sufficient information "for medical purposes" is a serious error.
(Comment from a practicing psychiatrist and neuroscience researcher.)
The idea that cardiac history alone is sufficient information "for medical purposes" is a serious error.
(Comment from a practicing psychiatrist and neuroscience researcher.)
117
Adoption. The decent thing to do would be to offer an amicable divorce and let the both of you get on with life.
56
Regarding the family with 84 year old father. Sometimes help can be found through Dad's doctors' office, a social worker, local senior centers, local/family house of worship, local university run law clinics, etc. It may be a Power of Attorney issue. Complicated stuff. Dad may be depressed, grieving, as are the children. Main caregiver should invite/encourage others to participate in any way, shape or form. (Sometimes siblings/in-laws feel left out, don't be fooled. Who will do it for them when they're older?) Maybe Dad is eager to leave memories behind. Relocation at any age is practically traumatic, but I think what most of our parents want/crave is their independence & to not see their children bickering or estranged. Enjoy what time you have left, speak from the heart, he has stories left to tell, listen to each other. Presence, be there. No substitute. It shouldn't fall to just one adult, don't take on all of it, but you might be coordinator if need be. It's literally a family affair. All the best.
4
Where I grew up in the Midwest we call this kind of magical thinking hooey. Has a relationship to pigs.
To Name Withheld: check very carefully in your desk and see if you can't find the Note which your father signed promising to repay the loans you and your brother made, which Note is dated prior to the first borrowing (I'm sure it's there somewhere). You may never need this document, but if your father does apply for Medicaid in the 5 year period following his repayment of the Note, you will be able to show Medicaid that the money from dad was not a gift, but repayment of a debt. Go talk to the lawyer (or better yet, find a more creative lawyer and talk to him), I believe that he will now confirm that there should be no penalty period from Medicaid. Make sure that your dad's repayment matches precisely the bank records showing the original expenditures on mom. Dad should not be returning funds that you and your brother can not prove were expended on mom.
24
That doesn't sound very ethical...
3
Sounds completely ethical to me. I would add, keep the money he repays in a separate account to be used for his care.
3
I read the first situation in disbelief. How was this not discussed before marriage? And if it was, how silly to believe you could change each others minds. Let her know IMMEDIATELY and quit dragging this along.
To the 2nd man - I agree with Mary Scott. Take the money and invest it or open up an account, for your father. Do not tell him you are doing so, as he will only protest. I am doing this with my parents. I am in my early 30s but they insist on giving me rent money (it's a whole thing I don't desire to get into). I take the money, and put it into a savings account I opened in their name. It has a decent interest rate and I will be able to use it for them when they are older and in need of financial help.
Good luck!
To the 2nd man - I agree with Mary Scott. Take the money and invest it or open up an account, for your father. Do not tell him you are doing so, as he will only protest. I am doing this with my parents. I am in my early 30s but they insist on giving me rent money (it's a whole thing I don't desire to get into). I take the money, and put it into a savings account I opened in their name. It has a decent interest rate and I will be able to use it for them when they are older and in need of financial help.
Good luck!
8
Where did you find a savings account with a 'decent interest rate'?
16
Brilliant and wonderful, R. Kay. Your parents are lucky to have you.
How did you manage to open an account for your parent(s) and manage it without your name on it in this day and age? Without knowing that I'm not sure how that solution could work for the daughter who is concerned about her father making himself ineligible for Medicaid. There also is the problem of the sibs who apparently don't feel similarly constrained.
I think the writer with the father who wants to give money back should be worried. It is very possible the father is considering ending his life which is why he won't see reason.
45
Medicaid has a 5 year lookback. If the elederly father has need for Medicaid services - say nursing care - upon application, it will be expected that he can account for all money he has had the use of over 5 years. Some gifts may be accepted - for that consult an expert. If indeed the money from the relatives is going to be treated as loans - by him - and they are going to accept this - then they should provide a statement of what they "loaned" him for help with their mothers' care. This is to document that he is not gifting his money away at the last moment to create eligibility, but making repayments. Gd help him - where is he going to live? But check to local elderlaw experts.
30
I don't know if this is true everywhere, but here in Pennsylvania, there is an office called Area Agency on Aging. I think each County has one, and I think they are funded through the State lottery proceeds. Anyway, they offer a wide range of services, including some legal services, all free of charge. I'm pretty sure that eligibility for the services is based on age, and there is an assessment by a social worker. It was my impression that other States have similar services. Maybe the LW could get some help in that way. Maybe the dad needs a guardian to be appointed to look after his finances.
9
Mary, apparently the problem is that an attorney has already been consulted and gave good advice which is being ignored by the father and some sibs.
I believe Delee is correct. It should be possible to create a trust for your father with the proceeds from the sale of his house. I would consult an attorney who specializes in eldercare or estates. Check your local bar association for a referral.
24
The elderly dad: Take the money. Invest it. Use it only for his care as he ages. The nephew with a need to know: Tell him to look at his dad's death certificate for more info on how his father died. An amazing number of people do not know this info is available on the death certificate.
The adoption situation: This marriage seems dead in the water. The many should tell his wife directly NOW and make it clear. My suggestion to her: leave this guy now and either start an adoptive family on your own or remarry and have kids with someone else. People who want kids should have them. People who don't want kids should definitely not have them. I pity any child brought into the current family structure.
The adoption situation: This marriage seems dead in the water. The many should tell his wife directly NOW and make it clear. My suggestion to her: leave this guy now and either start an adoptive family on your own or remarry and have kids with someone else. People who want kids should have them. People who don't want kids should definitely not have them. I pity any child brought into the current family structure.
91
Your solutions make perfect sense. Nothing to add.
Adoption-if the wife hasn't picked up on the passive=aggressive signals, the marriage may be in deeper trouble than it appears. I am not aware of any situation that has been improved by delaying the truth, especially one this big. Perhaps she can direct her nurturing energies elsewhere (unlikely, but one may hope). Taking on parenthood in your 40's is enormously different from your 20's; people don't think or move the way they did 20 years earlier, and patience is frequently in short supply. That would give you the chance to become the 67 year-old parent of a teenager. There's a treat!
Help her through her denial about your attitude.
Tell your nephew all the truth about his father's death, especially since depression is thought to have familial pathways. Despite his father (to your knowledge) not having had arrhythmia, it appears to be a trait in your family. This may be a chance to reduce the estrangement. Or not, but it usually doesn't hurt to try.
Dependence - Help the father sell his house and put whatever he gives you into a trust for eventual use in his behalf. You're just moving the asset from one place to another without diminishing it. At age 84, he is not promised a long, expensive decline. Presumably he has thought this through and is ready to leave the house. He may even be eager. He'll need help with this - it's an enormous event requiring thousands of small decisions.
Help her through her denial about your attitude.
Tell your nephew all the truth about his father's death, especially since depression is thought to have familial pathways. Despite his father (to your knowledge) not having had arrhythmia, it appears to be a trait in your family. This may be a chance to reduce the estrangement. Or not, but it usually doesn't hurt to try.
Dependence - Help the father sell his house and put whatever he gives you into a trust for eventual use in his behalf. You're just moving the asset from one place to another without diminishing it. At age 84, he is not promised a long, expensive decline. Presumably he has thought this through and is ready to leave the house. He may even be eager. He'll need help with this - it's an enormous event requiring thousands of small decisions.
39
My parents were 43 when I was born. You are too negative on older parenting. They had more fun with me than my 12 year older brother and had plenty of energy plus it kept them young. It was not perfect but that had more to do with who they were not age. By the time I was a teen I was very independent and responsible because I was raised to be so. Again parental expectations about being responsible were the key to the teen years. The one caveat is health. I did have persistent concerns about their physical well being then they lived to a ripe old age so that was me being a worrier.
14
My mother was 38 when I was born; 45 when my youngest sister was born. I agree with poslug about the attitude. We had a wonderful, PHYSICALLY ACTIVE upbringing.
6
The LW knew he never wanted children; he knew his wife wanted children? So why did he marry her? Future spouses should not pin their hopes on changing someone - especially when it comes to having children.
141
A friend of mine married a man who never wanted children ( didn't know then ) but he knew his wife wanted one or even more . He married her anyway then making up any excuses , social or health wise and etc everytime the conversation came to having children . It's sad but true . So you will never know why people married their spouses .
7
Yet sometimes people's attitudes on kids and many other things do change over time.I do think a marriage should be entered with all the cards on the table-who wants kids, who does not-- with no expectation that this will change. But somewhere along the line the partner who does not want children may decide to become a parent. (Seen it myself)
Having the disagreement at the beginning of a marriage, with an agreement no change is guaranteed, is one thing. Having the expectation of, or belief in the inevitability of,change is another. Both should enter marriage with open eyes.
LW1 does not go into enough detail on the agreement before they married and how much they disclosed about the desire to have kids. If his wife entered the marriage knowing full well he did not want kids, and probably never would, did she enter the marriage stating she would be ok with his not changing? (even if she harbored a hope he would) If she did enter with the agreement he might not ever want kids, isn't there a possibility of some manipulativeness on her part--at least at the outset of the process to become parents? (before they found they could not have kids if this occurred after their marriage, or before they began the adoption process)
He is the ultimate bad actor because he knows he will not go through with adoption. But what was he saying before they started the process? Was it a clear no? Has there been manipulation by her in pursuing this?
These two need counseling not a kid.
Having the disagreement at the beginning of a marriage, with an agreement no change is guaranteed, is one thing. Having the expectation of, or belief in the inevitability of,change is another. Both should enter marriage with open eyes.
LW1 does not go into enough detail on the agreement before they married and how much they disclosed about the desire to have kids. If his wife entered the marriage knowing full well he did not want kids, and probably never would, did she enter the marriage stating she would be ok with his not changing? (even if she harbored a hope he would) If she did enter with the agreement he might not ever want kids, isn't there a possibility of some manipulativeness on her part--at least at the outset of the process to become parents? (before they found they could not have kids if this occurred after their marriage, or before they began the adoption process)
He is the ultimate bad actor because he knows he will not go through with adoption. But what was he saying before they started the process? Was it a clear no? Has there been manipulation by her in pursuing this?
These two need counseling not a kid.
6
It works both ways, PrairieFlax; why did the wife marry the husband, knowing that he didn't want children?
1
I was lucky enough to be adopted by a wonderful couple your age , who cherished and lovingly prepared me for the rest of my life.
Believe me, the world has enough unwanted children. Any child you adopt would add to the total. Tell your wife this isn't happening, and get it over with so you can both begin dealing with the consequences.
Believe me, the world has enough unwanted children. Any child you adopt would add to the total. Tell your wife this isn't happening, and get it over with so you can both begin dealing with the consequences.
132
Here's an idea: take the money, let it sit in an interest-bearing account.
Later, when your father's financial needs become even more pressing, he may change his mind and allow you to help him with those funds. Suggest to the rest of the family they might do the same.
Later, when your father's financial needs become even more pressing, he may change his mind and allow you to help him with those funds. Suggest to the rest of the family they might do the same.
27
That doesn't help. The money he's going to be paying back is likely far less than the value of Medicaid.
54
The problem is by even giving that money to the son to put in an account instead of putting it in an account himself, he is throwing away $68,000+ in care (calculated from the US average elderly medicaid payout per person per year, over 5 years). Not to mention the adding the stress of hospital bills and negotiations - which medicaid handles in bulk much more cheaply.
The children will likely get the money soon anyway (he is 84...). By giving it to them and then building up debt from medical care - debt they will then inherit - he is basically just destroying their inheritance and adding stress to everyone.
The children will likely get the money soon anyway (he is 84...). By giving it to them and then building up debt from medical care - debt they will then inherit - he is basically just destroying their inheritance and adding stress to everyone.
75
@Mary Scott (and everyone else who posted the obvious solution that escaped The Ethicist) is exactly right. Put the money in a trust and convince the siblings to do the same, or perhaps use some/most of it to buy supplemental Medicare and/or Long-Term Care insurance for their father.
@Noah and @ shanky ars wrong because the father doesn't qualify for Medicaid regardless of the decision. In fact, he'll qualify more quickly if he gifts the proceeds from the house than if he just sat living in it. Maybe he'll make it five years with relatively few health problems and can then get medicaid. Maybe he'll die next week in his sleep of a stroke. Maybe inpatient care covered by Medicare is all he'll ever need before he dies as opposed to outpatient services covered by Medicaid.
@Noah and @ shanky ars wrong because the father doesn't qualify for Medicaid regardless of the decision. In fact, he'll qualify more quickly if he gifts the proceeds from the house than if he just sat living in it. Maybe he'll make it five years with relatively few health problems and can then get medicaid. Maybe he'll die next week in his sleep of a stroke. Maybe inpatient care covered by Medicare is all he'll ever need before he dies as opposed to outpatient services covered by Medicaid.
3