The French are in a difficult place. Like other Europeans they have spent centuries unifying and purifying their societies of identifiable minority communities to create a "core" identity.. And they have a particular sensitivity to the use of religion as a weapon. But now they must evolve their society to be more inclusive of their Muslim citizens or they will continue to suffer the consequences of having a disenfranchised minority population. The simplest path might be a return to the core values of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. They should accord their fellow Muslim citizens the freedom to express their identity, an equal place in the public space and embrace them as the fellow citizens that they are. Two generations from now a different-looking but transcendent France could be proud of its brave Resistance to fear and intolerance.
6
It puzzles me of why there's so much condemnation toward western countries who try/want to retain some form of traditional national identity, whereas it's practically national policy for EVERY country in Asia does that as a matter of course. They want to preserve their cultural identity, not just a national identity in name over with a passport and citizenship. Is this really that bad/wrong a thing to do? Since when is it a mandatory requirement for everyone to keep their door open for anything and anyone, just so that they won't bring upon them the wrath and deluge of condemnation from liberal media like NYT?
Granted that there's some level of hypocrisy that countries like France or US practice. When you condemn others (like China) for human rights abuse, you'd better be sure you don't do the same (yet they do). Would it have been better if western countries like France or UK did *NOT* accept these foreign nationals to become citizens in the first place, out of humanitarian reasons in so many cases of refugees and aslyum seekers? I'll bet NYT will say, of course not. By that same token, why is it mandated on host countries to change themselves, but not also mandate on the newcomers to assimilate? Isn't that PRECISELY the problem with all these migrant underclass, that they refuse to assimilate and cling onto their OWN cultural and religious identity, mandating others to change to accommodate them?
Such twisted logic. To make an open society, it takes both sides to succeed.
Granted that there's some level of hypocrisy that countries like France or US practice. When you condemn others (like China) for human rights abuse, you'd better be sure you don't do the same (yet they do). Would it have been better if western countries like France or UK did *NOT* accept these foreign nationals to become citizens in the first place, out of humanitarian reasons in so many cases of refugees and aslyum seekers? I'll bet NYT will say, of course not. By that same token, why is it mandated on host countries to change themselves, but not also mandate on the newcomers to assimilate? Isn't that PRECISELY the problem with all these migrant underclass, that they refuse to assimilate and cling onto their OWN cultural and religious identity, mandating others to change to accommodate them?
Such twisted logic. To make an open society, it takes both sides to succeed.
37
When in Rome - do as the Romans do-
2000 years ago and some people still don't get it
2000 years ago and some people still don't get it
23
Delacroix's painting of Marianne exposing her breast leading the charge. French women of all ages sunbathing topless. These are the iconic images of French women and of French culture that celebrates the woman's body. The burkini is alien and even offensive to the French. Those who criticize the banning of the burkini are committing cultural ethocentrism.
21
There is a war going on between the West and the Islam. So people don't like seeing the beaches invade with muslims wearing provoking garbs.
It has nothing to do with xenofobia, only with common sense.
It has nothing to do with xenofobia, only with common sense.
22
Again and again I head this line of "argument" on almost every topic. Namely: "in Saudi Arabia you wouldn't be allowed to wear/say/do x, why should we allow something here".
Again and again I wonder about how this, an "argument" I would expect from a 4th grader, is so fixated in the mind of many.
Once and for all: just because somebody somewhere else does something bad does not mean that you should or are entitled to do something bad.
Again and again I wonder about how this, an "argument" I would expect from a 4th grader, is so fixated in the mind of many.
Once and for all: just because somebody somewhere else does something bad does not mean that you should or are entitled to do something bad.
6
Being condensing about the argument does not make the argument any less relevant. It would not be acceptable for a woman to walk about in the streets of an Arab city dressed with much of her body exposed. You respect the culture of where you visit and especially if you live there. Or you chose to visit or live elsewhere.
25
Walking around on dry land in burka is one thing, but swimming, possibly drowning, in one ? PLEASE ! And even more uncomfortable, would be coming out of the water swathed in head to toe heavy soaking cloth. I am no unlimited -free- market-capitalist, but in this case , let the market decide. Hopefully, if given some modest ,yet practical alternatives in bathing attire, Muslim women may dare abandon the burka for swimming, but keep the government out of it.
9
PERSONALLY, I find swimming in the nude delightful, but unfortunately there are restrictions on that in most places.
10
So if i read correctly, some women are thrown off the beach and fined for having their bodies covered wearing a burkini ?
So if the same women show up wearing a full wet suit for diving, will she she thrown off the beach and fined ? Some of those burkini's look like wet suits to me. So, OK, all Muslim women run out and buy a diving wet suit, see if they toss you off the beach then.
How stupid and petty humanity can be. wear what you want to wear
So if the same women show up wearing a full wet suit for diving, will she she thrown off the beach and fined ? Some of those burkini's look like wet suits to me. So, OK, all Muslim women run out and buy a diving wet suit, see if they toss you off the beach then.
How stupid and petty humanity can be. wear what you want to wear
30
There is another side to this that many people don't seem to understand. The Muslim population in Europe has not only been growing in numbers but has beome increasingly more religious. When Muslim men believe that only women who wear headscarves/Niquabs/burkinis are worthy of respect, there is a tendency to treat those who are not so dressed in a less respectful manner. When you experience your "normally" dressed daughter being sexual harassed, cat-called, or treated disrespectfully by groups of Muslim men, then maybe you will understand the need to preserve French, European or liberal culture. I am now uncomfortable to sit on by porch in shorts and a t-shirt when my Muslim, headscarf-wearing neighbors are outside. They certainly think I am immodest. How will my granddaughters feel when half of her school class is religious Muslims? What will happen to her freedom to dress how she wants? Why is it so wrong to protect our culture and liberal values????
97
It is not really about the Burkini.
If we want to be honest and forget about political correctness, we would have to address the real question/problem with which the French are struggling:
Referring to a comment posted here a few hours ago by Claire from Boston (a French woman living in the states):
“The mothers of the women wearing Birkini today never felt they needed a Burkini at the beach. Did the muslim women of France suddenly became modest over the few last years?”
If you tried to answer this question, you’d probably find the root of the problem.
If we want to be honest and forget about political correctness, we would have to address the real question/problem with which the French are struggling:
Referring to a comment posted here a few hours ago by Claire from Boston (a French woman living in the states):
“The mothers of the women wearing Birkini today never felt they needed a Burkini at the beach. Did the muslim women of France suddenly became modest over the few last years?”
If you tried to answer this question, you’d probably find the root of the problem.
23
Our world has gone insane. I would volunteer for a one-way Mars mission. NASA, come and get me, please. I want my own planet.
14
A Muslim woman who wants to enjoy the sun and wind and waves at the beach with her family and fellow citizens is a good thing. If she feels more comfortable dressed modestly, whether in a burkini or t-shirt or simply a bathing suit with more coverage, why not?? Surely there's more to the "soul of France" than a fixation on skimpy bikinis.
15
More often than not, laws purportedly design to *protect* women are actually designed to punish them. Consider Texas's most recent anti-abortion clinic law, currently being challenged in court. The male legislators who passed it swear that their intent is to protect *vulnerable* women, whom they assume are too childish and stupid to comprehend that an abortion puts their lives at risk.
12
What silliness. When introduced, many women refused to purchase or wear two-piece swim wear. Many still don't buy or wear them. Why? Because they don't feel they look good in them just as I don't think I'd look good in a male Speedo swim suit. Just so with the 'Burkini'. When Muslim women no longer feel like wearing them (for whatever reason), they'll wear something else just as if I ever feel like wearing a Speedo I'll do so (no matter how many feel my middle-aged pot belly makes me look unattractive in it). Can France please move on to a subject more newsworthy and important?
5
I don't see anything particularly wrong when a culture promoting secularism wants to limit religious garmwnrs, especially those which seem to support the idea that women must hide themselves and their bodies -- for what reason? To tempt man?
Better they come to the beach in actual beach garb with sunscreen. Perhaps staunch followers of Islam will then realize there is no inherent sin in the beauty of a woman's body.
Better they come to the beach in actual beach garb with sunscreen. Perhaps staunch followers of Islam will then realize there is no inherent sin in the beauty of a woman's body.
13
This is so sad and yet so funny!
Covering your head above the shoulders should never be permitted for official identification documents in the West. But at the beach? Let women and men wear what they want - or nothing at all.
Some things are required and can be regulated; some things are voluntary and should never be!
Chevy
South Hadley, MA
Covering your head above the shoulders should never be permitted for official identification documents in the West. But at the beach? Let women and men wear what they want - or nothing at all.
Some things are required and can be regulated; some things are voluntary and should never be!
Chevy
South Hadley, MA
13
Catholic nuns are not allowed to swim without being totally covered, as in their everyday life. Their habits and veils cover almost all of their bodies. No one seems to find this offensive, and it has been this way for centuries. Why is it any different for a muslim?
15
The analogy of a burqa or hajib worn by a Muslim women to a nun wearing a habit doesn't hold water and here's why...Nuns are women who choose to enter a religious vocation and then further choose to wear the habit or not. Wearing the burqa or hijab is not a choice for most women living in Muslim majority countries but a mandatory requirement and these women have no standing in the Muslim hierarchy at all. Women are not invited to hold any place in Islamic religious hierarchy. There are only male Imams and Mullahs. Nothing else. The very big difference is, again, choice.
17
I don't know what they do about swimming, but most nuns have not worn the kind of full-length habits , etc., you are referring to in decades.
12
And what if the Muslim woman is voluntarily making the choice to wear a burkini and you are now taking that choice away by banning their wearing. Voila! Choice removed. Slippery slope.
Not a fan at all of any religion or religious garb but this seems a silly thing to go to the mat over.
Not a fan at all of any religion or religious garb but this seems a silly thing to go to the mat over.
8
There is indeed a translation of laïcité--it's secularism. And it refers to the separation of church and state. There is nothing special or untranslatable about the French word. The French version is a particularly severe version. Those who drafted the 1905 law separating church and state were interested in limiting the power of the Catholic Church in French politics. In recent years there has been an entirely new definition given to the idea of secularism--it now refers to the need to refrain from all religious identification in public places on the part of Muslim women particularly. What once referred to state neutrality in matters of religion (and religious neutrality in matters of state) now refers to the behavior of citizens and non-citizens in the public spaces of the French nation. This is a form of racism against Muslims and it is the source of anger and bitterness on the part of those populations against what can only be seen as the discriminatory policies of the French state.
11
This illustrates the absurdity of French secularists and the fact that the French have already lost their soul! Now they are just so utterly confused they simply dont know which way to respond.They have already lost their culture because the most important aspect of their culture, their Christian identity, has been discarded, leaving nothing but a hollow shell of a culture that cant even distinguish between essentials of a culture worth retaining and those elements that are simply outward, shallow manifestations of culture. Its as if Americans paved over the Statue of Liberty but insisted a McDonalds was left in its place! As the society fails to recognize its Christian heritage, it simply aborts and contracepts itself into oblivion while Islamic immigrants represent the only population growth in the country. And yet they expect to retain French culture? Not possible! In the meantime its pathetic attempt to retain its "culture" rests in denying Muslim women the right to their religious modesty, claiming that French "virtue" DEMANDS that women bare their skin in public. This French display of the obfuscation of the natural concepts of freedom of religion and female modesty is utterly astounding! They fiddle as the Titanic is sinking! The "soul" of the French culture rested in, the very least, a respect for its Christian heritage. The French cant articulate a raison d'etre. But they are sure adamant that it has something to do with not wearing a burkini. How laughable!
5
Have you ever been to France. The country oozes soul and culture and not much has to do with being Christian beyond their fabulous churches and stained glass--which most people appreciate as architecture and art, not religion.
6
It seems to me that laïcité has not prevented the French from turning on their neighbors and bringing religion into the public sphere with more bombast and froth than your average TV preacher. And I've seen several French readers introduce themselves as Catholic right off the bat. Really? I really like the idea of a secular society, and I'll let you know when I see one.
5
Is this really about the Burkini as a swimming costume? - or is it about what the Burkini represents - which is a form of gender inequality? I might not have as much of a problem with the Burkini if Muslim men also had cover up their bodies so that women would not be tempted to have ......gasp.....sex with them (that is what "modesty" is all about .....isn't it?.....sexual taboos that the women must bear the brunt of). Rather than ban the burkini, perhaps France should consider making the men wear them too.
37
I think clothing bans are generally a bad idea. It's really bullying. But it's France. It's *their* country. It seems a little strange that some Muslims think that a non-Muslim woman who travels to say Saudi Arabia or Iran or Afghanistan or Pakistan should dress according to local customs yet when these same people move to France they are utterly unwilling to abide by local customs there.
56
It is reasonable that full face coverings are prohibited, because a case can be made for security, safety, and identification of individuals. Otherwise, it is silly to have restrictions on clothing, especially on a beach. Some may be protecting themselves from UV radiation, others may just be shy, some may not be intending to swim at all... reasons are endless and irrelevant. Far from alleviating the suffering of oppressed women, banning the burkini will only make matters worse because the affected women will simply stop coming to the beach. I love the French people, their values, their customs, and (especially) their food - but I have to point out that on this matter they have gone a bit crazy!
15
Enslavement would require that the women would choose not to wear these garments. They have a choice, and they chose it. That's their problem. Why do you have to make it yours, too?
2
I wear what I jokingly refer to as my "beach burkha" for water outings. It consists of a wide brimmed hat, long sleeved swim shirt that covers my hands, and full length swim leggings covered by a (mini) skirt. Many women prefer to be covered up in the sun, for a lot of different reasons, including sun safety (my father had melanoma) and modesty (I'm modest but not religious at all). Who cares what people wear to the beach?
More importantly, these regulations hurt women in France, rather than helping them, by targeting and isolating Muslim women and preventing them from participating in public life. It is only through the participation by all in public life (beaches, schools, parks, government, etc.) that the non-Muslim French will get to know and to appreciate their neighbors, whether Muslim, Catholic or any other religion.
More importantly, these regulations hurt women in France, rather than helping them, by targeting and isolating Muslim women and preventing them from participating in public life. It is only through the participation by all in public life (beaches, schools, parks, government, etc.) that the non-Muslim French will get to know and to appreciate their neighbors, whether Muslim, Catholic or any other religion.
18
Solely by accepting to wear this garb at the beach, these women are already distancing themselves from public life with their neighbors (I also use the term accepting loosely). And your choice to wear your "beach burqa" has nothing to do with being forced to wear it by oppressive regimes (i.e The Taliban) and the repressive men in their lives who tell them that any bodily exposure to non familial members is tantamount to dishonor and can result in murder. Can we not just call it what it is? A form of control by male figures in their lives based off of antiquated religious texts? Do you honestly think a woman in her right mind free of repercussion would wear a head to toe black garment in 100+ degrees?
15
Interesting dilemma with many ironies for me. I am as put off by the burka as I am by the women (often featured in this paper) who want to "free the nipple" and, to me, seem shallow and misguided in their cries for equality. I am very happy to have been born a woman, but know that I'll never fully understand, how much valorization of cosmetically beautiful women has harmed me. Now procedures ("work") seems to be setting a new external standard, just when, at 65, I thought I'd have more freedom and balance. Both the burka and class system for women heavily based on looks are oppressive and neither are what I still fight for as a feminist.
8
The Russians banned the chador, burka and long women's dresses in Central Asia after the revolution. The communists believed men and women were equal and that making women cover themselves head to toe was discriminatory and sexist. Another reason why they banned it --- men had long disguised themselves as women and carried out assassinations and, in recent Soviet times, bombings.
It worked out fine. Women adopted colorful dresses which were just below the knee and they wore scarves in their hair. Today, some modern, younger central Asian women wear jeans, but I notice that the ones who wear dresses are wearing them with longer hemlines. The scarves are sometimes more elaborate and hide all of the women's hair, while in the Soviet past most women wore scarves that did not hide the hair entirely. The burka has returned in some areas.
Having met many central Asian women, I doubt any of them returned to the burka willingly. It's a very hot area of the world and a burka is demeaning. As for longer hemlines and covered hair, they may prefer to do this because it eliminated bad hair days and hides leg blemishes, as well as having been told by men that they must do it. But when the soviet state said no more veils and no more voluminous burkas, that was that. The women remained Muslim and found ways to maintain modesty. I agree with France. Maintain modesty within your adopted country's cultural norms. Life will go on just fine.
It worked out fine. Women adopted colorful dresses which were just below the knee and they wore scarves in their hair. Today, some modern, younger central Asian women wear jeans, but I notice that the ones who wear dresses are wearing them with longer hemlines. The scarves are sometimes more elaborate and hide all of the women's hair, while in the Soviet past most women wore scarves that did not hide the hair entirely. The burka has returned in some areas.
Having met many central Asian women, I doubt any of them returned to the burka willingly. It's a very hot area of the world and a burka is demeaning. As for longer hemlines and covered hair, they may prefer to do this because it eliminated bad hair days and hides leg blemishes, as well as having been told by men that they must do it. But when the soviet state said no more veils and no more voluminous burkas, that was that. The women remained Muslim and found ways to maintain modesty. I agree with France. Maintain modesty within your adopted country's cultural norms. Life will go on just fine.
64
Thank you. We bend over backward for religious freedom of expression here in North America. It's nauseating
6
So funny, they talk about the clothing as a symbol of women's oppression. Telling women what they can and can't wear is oppressive.
18
Suppose the government in the US started to issue prohibitions on what people were allowed to wear in various settings. How far would that go in the US? At the very least it would be rightfully decried as an unconstitutional restriction on free speech.
The issue is not about our comfort with certain clothing and whether it represents oppression or religious expression; in a free society it is not up to the government to dictate how we dress.
If the women in France are oppressed, they can be thankful that they live in a western democracy where dissent is tolerated.
The issue is not about our comfort with certain clothing and whether it represents oppression or religious expression; in a free society it is not up to the government to dictate how we dress.
If the women in France are oppressed, they can be thankful that they live in a western democracy where dissent is tolerated.
3
France is a shadow of what once was. The sun is setting on its glorious past.
Civilization who have experienced such a decline, their people go through psychological adjustment often manifested by picking on its society's weakest link "Muslims" or even start wars with new found enemies conveniently blamed for their misfortunes!!
France has not had 3% economical growth in decades. Its unemployment is always hovering at above 10% in spite of new laws that penalize overtime and force people out of the work force at the age of 62!!
Civilization who have experienced such a decline, their people go through psychological adjustment often manifested by picking on its society's weakest link "Muslims" or even start wars with new found enemies conveniently blamed for their misfortunes!!
France has not had 3% economical growth in decades. Its unemployment is always hovering at above 10% in spite of new laws that penalize overtime and force people out of the work force at the age of 62!!
2
You write that laïcité is "a concept for which there is no English translation." Many would consider 'secularism' a fair translation since it is used in the same context of separating church and state.
3
What ever happened to assimilation? If you move to another country, one should adhere to the values, traditions, and culture of their new home. I've travelled to over forty countries across the world and was always taught to be "culturally sensitive" and to be respectful of those places in which I arrive. I guess the New York Times thinks otherwise....
22
When I was a child living at a camp my father ran for the St Vincent de Paul Society, every summer nuns from an orphanage in Buffalo brought their toddlers out for day at the beach. These nuns were founded in France and wore the long habits and huge white headdresses like the nuns in the children's book Madeleine. They went right into the water in their habits with their skirts tucked up, holding the little ones in the waves, and a good time was had by all. It is a good thing it happened in Western New York, and not in France. Why can't people let today's women in religious garb be?
20
Nuns are women who, by choice, take a vow and become part of a religious order. Muslim females being forced by their religion to cover themselves for modesty in burqa or hijab, often beginning in childhood, is a completely different entirely. And every women who cares a dam about women's rights needs to start recognizing the difference.
8
Simple question: if you are concerned about the welfare of Muslim women in France, how is using the law to prosecute and stigmatize those women supposed to make their lives better?
11
Article IV of the Declaration of the Rights of Man:
"Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each man has only those borders which assure other members of the society the enjoyment of these same rights."
I wonder which beachgoers are so offended by burkinis that it actually causes them harm. Must be some powerful stuff.
"Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each man has only those borders which assure other members of the society the enjoyment of these same rights."
I wonder which beachgoers are so offended by burkinis that it actually causes them harm. Must be some powerful stuff.
9
Total hypocrisy. The leadership is failing to provide basic protection against terrorism that a discrete radical Islamic group conducts, but blatantly discriminates against all Islamic women to make it look like they care?
4
Islamic fundamentalist idealogy is the disease and making women cover themselves from head to toe at the beach is just another outcome of that idealogy. France is doing the right thing but it's probably too little too late.
14
I'm not French. Do any French women find this statement insulting?:
"'The French beaches are those of Bardot and Vadim,' [Marine Le Pen, the leader of the extreme-right National Front] said, referring to the movie star Brigitte Bardot and Roger Vadim, a screenwriter known for his sensual movies, not those of “Belphegor,” she added, referring to a television serial about a lugubrious ghost in a long cape that haunted the Louvre Museum."
So you have to be a sex kitten to be allowed on a public beach? That doesn't strike you as oppressive?
I understand that the French want to retain their culture and resent Muslims coming to their country and not participating more in French public life and society. Or maybe they DON'T want Muslims to participate, because that certainly will be the result of this law. Muslim women will stay home, feeling resentful against the state and alienated from their countrymen, fermenting more terrorism. This does nothing to encourage loosening Muslim mores, it just punishes already oppressed Muslim women.
Yes, a lot of Muslim men are oppressive and controlling. So can be Western ones. Progress is slow. Allow immigrants time to assimilate and adapt. 100 years ago, if a woman wore a bikini on a western beach, she would have been shunned too.
All or nothing culture is impossible in this modern world. We all must accept change and work towards making it positive change. Hard work indeed.
"'The French beaches are those of Bardot and Vadim,' [Marine Le Pen, the leader of the extreme-right National Front] said, referring to the movie star Brigitte Bardot and Roger Vadim, a screenwriter known for his sensual movies, not those of “Belphegor,” she added, referring to a television serial about a lugubrious ghost in a long cape that haunted the Louvre Museum."
So you have to be a sex kitten to be allowed on a public beach? That doesn't strike you as oppressive?
I understand that the French want to retain their culture and resent Muslims coming to their country and not participating more in French public life and society. Or maybe they DON'T want Muslims to participate, because that certainly will be the result of this law. Muslim women will stay home, feeling resentful against the state and alienated from their countrymen, fermenting more terrorism. This does nothing to encourage loosening Muslim mores, it just punishes already oppressed Muslim women.
Yes, a lot of Muslim men are oppressive and controlling. So can be Western ones. Progress is slow. Allow immigrants time to assimilate and adapt. 100 years ago, if a woman wore a bikini on a western beach, she would have been shunned too.
All or nothing culture is impossible in this modern world. We all must accept change and work towards making it positive change. Hard work indeed.
39
Assimilation is all well and good, but this is more like cultural expurgation. Even considering the terrible violence that has struck France, this ban is, at worst, presumptuous – at best, merely fashion-bullying. Prime Minister Valls may consider the burkini part of “the enslavement of women,” but is it any more enslaving than high heels, lipstick, or a western bikini? Assimilation should foster integration, not cultural amnesia or ethnic oblivion..
9
I was walking down 86th street in Bay Ridge Brooklyn reading on my phone. I looked up at the same moment I was passing a woman wearing a burka. I nearly jumped in shock - it was like encountering a Star Wars character.
We are simply not used to this attire. But, banning religious "expression" is far too advanced for the world. Most Americans don't even have an appreciation for the French ideal of secular moderate society. I was born in Indiana and I do find all crosses large and small completely offensive.
We are simply not used to this attire. But, banning religious "expression" is far too advanced for the world. Most Americans don't even have an appreciation for the French ideal of secular moderate society. I was born in Indiana and I do find all crosses large and small completely offensive.
7
Somewhere wearing a cross offends you but a woman wearing a burqa, exposing only her eyes, doesn't? You would reject the former and accept the latter? This is why western civilization is doomed.
6
We're NYT readers equally outraged when Sadiq Khan banned freedom of speech in the advertising of women in bikinis in London ads?
24
Transport for London does not fine advertisers, so you are making a false analogy.
1
@sw
Mr. Khan's very (logical)) explanation for the ban, had more to do with the fact that as the father of teenage daughters, he didn't want them to be exposed to body-conscious public advertising which accounts for a large percentage of the eating disorders found among younger women today.
Mr. Khan's very (logical)) explanation for the ban, had more to do with the fact that as the father of teenage daughters, he didn't want them to be exposed to body-conscious public advertising which accounts for a large percentage of the eating disorders found among younger women today.
1
Seems like it'd be tough drag to swim in let alone surf.
6
What an indescribably stupid issue for a government to take any stance at all on, let alone this one. As a man, am I allowed to go to the beach with my body covered--for example as protection agains UV rays?
10
I disagree with the move, but I'm wondering: if I show up at a non-nudist beach and I strip myself naked, am I gonna get fined/arrested? Why?
But that goes both ways. What now if a fully clothed family ("textiles" for those who know) show up at a nudist beach, say Gunnison Beach in Sandy Hook, N.J.? Aren't they gonna make those nude there feel uncomfortable?
I'm not trying to prove that Muslims or the French are hypocritical (in fact, only in France you can find fully functioning nudist towns). But that we all have to obey to some rules of conformity. Not for us, but to make people interacting with us feel comfortable. I would feel very uncomfortable if I were to go to a business meeting and the person I was to meet showed up dress in jeans and a t-shirt while I would be dressed in a suit. That's why I can see why there might a push back against burkini.
But that goes both ways. What now if a fully clothed family ("textiles" for those who know) show up at a nudist beach, say Gunnison Beach in Sandy Hook, N.J.? Aren't they gonna make those nude there feel uncomfortable?
I'm not trying to prove that Muslims or the French are hypocritical (in fact, only in France you can find fully functioning nudist towns). But that we all have to obey to some rules of conformity. Not for us, but to make people interacting with us feel comfortable. I would feel very uncomfortable if I were to go to a business meeting and the person I was to meet showed up dress in jeans and a t-shirt while I would be dressed in a suit. That's why I can see why there might a push back against burkini.
8
Gunnison Beach is "clothing optional". That is very different from "nudity mandatory", which appears to be what you incorrectly believe is the legal requirement for presence on the beach.
You also appear to be confusing legality and "conformity". In France, the "burkini" bans have the force of law -- violators can be fined.
You also appear to be confusing legality and "conformity". In France, the "burkini" bans have the force of law -- violators can be fined.
1
I don't confuse nothing. I say from the very beginning that I disagree with the burkini ban. You, on the other hand, seem to miss out on the importance of conformity; conformity not as a forced standard to comply with a community's expectations, rather as a mean of community members to agree with each other on some basic common principles so that they can all live happily ever after. In France that basic principle is that religion stays out of public affairs and is practiced (freely) in private. Burkini demonstrates a disregard for that principle. If in any other Western society it is antisocial by definition for showing that the person sporting it refuses to make an effort to assimilate to the local norms, it is twice as antisocial in France where you are not supposed to brandish your religious beliefs. When the Burkini-clad women and their men fail to understand that, it's only expected that at some point there would some consequences. Then majority rules. Minorities know this all too well in Muslim-majority countries. Unfortunately we witness that even in France.
P.S. Clothing optional is a euphemism used by those recognizing that nudists should have a small patch of land to enjoy themselves. Since nudists don't have the support of a state, they cannot impose any "mandatory" rules. So I cannot stop you if you want to show up at Gunnison and stay clothed, but if from all the beaches in the world you insisted on going there that would show that you have some issues.
P.S. Clothing optional is a euphemism used by those recognizing that nudists should have a small patch of land to enjoy themselves. Since nudists don't have the support of a state, they cannot impose any "mandatory" rules. So I cannot stop you if you want to show up at Gunnison and stay clothed, but if from all the beaches in the world you insisted on going there that would show that you have some issues.
3
Let women wear what they want!
11
Is the inverse not also true. Let women where nothing at all.
Oh, I forgot, this is the US and not France.
Oh, I forgot, this is the US and not France.
5
This is a hard line on France's part, but I wouldn't call it bigotry. It's helping these women step out of the dark ages of the places their families came from. It surprises me to read so many Western "feminists" expressing support for this garment on this board.
Humility is a virtue, but it veers into self-loathing when the West can't stand up for its values. Or have these feminists forgotten that for the men forcing women to wear this abomination the question isn't about women wearing burkinis. The question for those men is: What were they doing out of the house in the first place?
Humility is a virtue, but it veers into self-loathing when the West can't stand up for its values. Or have these feminists forgotten that for the men forcing women to wear this abomination the question isn't about women wearing burkinis. The question for those men is: What were they doing out of the house in the first place?
28
"It's helping these women ..."
Suppression of religious speech is not "helping these women".
Suppression of religious speech is not "helping these women".
I believe one of the greatest threats to the values of Western liberal democracy and our way of life is the kind of "tolerance of intolerance" that many commenters are exhibiting with respect to contemporary Islamic practices.
I think this is a manifestation of their automatic sympathy for the minority and the foreigner that results in a kind of laissez-faire passivity and cultural relativism that can justify acceptance of customs and behaviors that typically would be resisted among domestic factions as illiberal and even fascist.
In my view, the U.S. and Western Europe are actually a small part of the world (less than 15% of the world's population) and don't need to be all things for all peoples. If someone wants to live in accordance with early middle age theocratic norms, there are plenty of other places to do that in the world. Instead of misguided sympathy for a billion-strong purported "minority", we need to implement a proactive defense of liberal values, even if this is at the expense of acceptance of all different viewpoints and customs at home.
I think too many people forget that the default state of man is not liberal democracy. It is a fragile thing and must be vigilantly protected.
I think this is a manifestation of their automatic sympathy for the minority and the foreigner that results in a kind of laissez-faire passivity and cultural relativism that can justify acceptance of customs and behaviors that typically would be resisted among domestic factions as illiberal and even fascist.
In my view, the U.S. and Western Europe are actually a small part of the world (less than 15% of the world's population) and don't need to be all things for all peoples. If someone wants to live in accordance with early middle age theocratic norms, there are plenty of other places to do that in the world. Instead of misguided sympathy for a billion-strong purported "minority", we need to implement a proactive defense of liberal values, even if this is at the expense of acceptance of all different viewpoints and customs at home.
I think too many people forget that the default state of man is not liberal democracy. It is a fragile thing and must be vigilantly protected.
60
"... the default state of man is not liberal democracy."
What is "the default state of man"? That is asking a lot, so feel free to cite a book or two ... :-)
What is "the default state of man"? That is asking a lot, so feel free to cite a book or two ... :-)
1
Let us be clear, the use of the Burkini, hijab, and burkha are inventions contrived by men for men. Head-to-toe coverage by Islamic women is to prevent them from victimizing men through the sin of "suduction" and terror of rape. This is not the laudible practice of modest dress.
Conservative Islam remains the center-of-mass for body shaming. Head-to-toe coverage is not only antiquated. It is an anachronism, a sibling of the hirsute and celice.
Conservative Islam remains the center-of-mass for body shaming. Head-to-toe coverage is not only antiquated. It is an anachronism, a sibling of the hirsute and celice.
27
I am hardly qualified to know the mind of the average French individual, but my guess is few care one way or the other about the actual wearing of a burka or any other covering at the beach.
What I, and I would hope others, do care about is that cultural accommodations should go both ways. When women at Saudi beaches are allowed bikinis without harassment then women at French beaches should be allowed burkas without harassment. It is the cultural hypocrisy that annoys.
What I, and I would hope others, do care about is that cultural accommodations should go both ways. When women at Saudi beaches are allowed bikinis without harassment then women at French beaches should be allowed burkas without harassment. It is the cultural hypocrisy that annoys.
22
I am a French woman living in the states and I am really surprised by the comments I read here. I wonder how many are from women. "Modesty" you write, REALLY?? do you realize that while you are writing your comments, some women are fighting (and taking a lot of risks for doing so) in Saudi Arabia and in Iran to have the right to get rid of their veils, burqa, and so forth? France has had the largest muslim population of Europe for a very long time. The mothers of the women wearing Birkini today never felt they needed a Burkini at the beach. Did the muslim women of France suddenly became modest over the few last years? If you think that change is a sign of freedom or progress, well.. I don't. If you think this is just a matter of atire, then you are either very naive or just very misinformed.
139
Europe is reaching a critical mass of Muslims where it will have to tolerate a lot more rejection of its current culture.
6
I agree that the tradition of covering up is one of control and fear of women. But I also understand that the women wearing 'burkinis' will not be free to throw them off and wear western style bathing suits at this time. The burkini may be one subtle step in the direction of freedom for them, one that does not put them in direct and dangerous conflict with the misogynistic males who control their - and their children's lives. One step at a time in a supportive society is better than pushing them back into the dark.
How about if I wore a surf suit? Would I be escorted off the beach if I, for no reason whatsoever, decided to where my winter hiking gear to the beach?What if I made up a religion right now and mandated that all followers must where Livestrong bracelets? I'm not Muslim; I'm just interested in testing the limits of this ridiculous law. Should make for some great comedy. I'm looking at you, Remi Gaillard!
2
Who is allowed to control what women wear? Their religion? Their government? Their husband? No, in the end it is the women themselves who are the ones to control what they wear. France should take a firm stance in that regard, making clear that their country does not control what women wear (for whatever reason a woman chooses to wear something), and that on their beaches women are welcome in whatever attire they desire. That would be more powerful than to be the next who finds it can control what women wear.
9
No, it is not true that the women themselves decide what to wear. There have been Muslim women in France for decades. It is just recently that the Burkini has arrived on beaches. Previous generations of Muslim women did not wear Burkinis to the beach. They maintained modesty within France's cultural norms. Muslim men are allowed to tell women how to dress and are allowed by the Quran to beat wives who disobey them. No woman wants to go to a hot beach covered from head to toe. This is fundamentalist rigidity. France has long had a tradition of rejecting religious fundamentalist rigidity. It's their culture. If Saudis and Iranians can make laws in their countries requiring veils and burkas, then France can equally make laws banning them on the grounds that men and women are equal and the swathing of women at beaches is discriminatory toward women.
After all, Muslim countries have laws discriminating against gays while here in the west we passed laws outlawing discrimination against gays.
As the French say, "Cest la vie."
After all, Muslim countries have laws discriminating against gays while here in the west we passed laws outlawing discrimination against gays.
As the French say, "Cest la vie."
14
The French are caught red handed once again attempting to legislate and codify a cultural and historical issue. This French obsession for forced assimilation and conformism is one terrible, wrongheaded way to address the Islam/postcolonial question. This has been a lingering topic since the immigration waves from the 1960s onward, along with the national illusion that all cultural differences would melt away in the oh-so-wonderful Republican, universalist, secular model. But racism and Islamophobia caught up pretty quickly. Now it is even more pathetic to hear a Socialist prime minister indulge in far-right rhetoric. Lastly and sadly, the exclusion and stigmatization of the French Muslim population plays -exactly- the card of international, Islamist terrorism.s
6
"...Forced assimilation..." A clue Yalie, if one wishes to join a society does not that society have the right to insist that that person comport him/herself to its values?
So when the semester begins, I suggest that you pose that question to one of your learned professors.
So when the semester begins, I suggest that you pose that question to one of your learned professors.
6
Hmm. It's almost makes one wish that people who wished to wear burkinis had their own countries where they could do just that while people who *didn't* wish to wear burkinis had their own country where they could do that.
And then everyone would be happy. Good fences make good neighbors.
And then everyone would be happy. Good fences make good neighbors.
6
So Richard, since you imagine yourself to be quite learned, would this include forcing Orthodox Jews to remove their outlandish Kippas which set themselves apart from the rest of society? Should we force them and the Amish to "assimilate" to the majority in the name of liberal democratic virtue and forced equality? Do you see any contradictions here which would not necessitate an Ivy League education to discern on your part?
3
If one cannot assimilate DON'T emigrate!
32
What is it with the French and swimming outfits? A swim park I considered visiting in Paris required men to wear speedo-style swim trunks, which I did not possess.
Forced body acceptance appears to be the goal. The French are obviously not only against religious traditions that subvert this goal, but American prudishness too.
Does diversity increase body consciousness, explaining the long shorts style now prevalent in the US?
In any case, sorry France, for the wet burqini thrown on your pool party.
Forced body acceptance appears to be the goal. The French are obviously not only against religious traditions that subvert this goal, but American prudishness too.
Does diversity increase body consciousness, explaining the long shorts style now prevalent in the US?
In any case, sorry France, for the wet burqini thrown on your pool party.
1
Have the French never heard of the Amish? They're all over Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, etc. - and they have very traditional, conservative attire. Plus, they don't use cars or electricity.
Catholic nuns wear head coverings and flowing, cover-it-all garments. Don't know that I've seen a nun at the beach, but if I did, I'd be very surprised if she were wearing a string bikini just to fit in.
When I lived in Cairo (2012 - 2015), a third of the women wore the hijab (hair covered) and about 3-5% wore the niqab (everything covered but the eyes) - and yet about 90% of women reported being sexually harassed. The reason, I think, is simple - when you tell women they're responsible for what a male does, then the males get the notion they can do whatever the hell they want.
It's pretty clear the French edicts are founded on Islamophobia, the "phobia du jour." It's also clear that it's not easy fitting 7th century traditions into a 21st century society. I think the most important thing any of us can do, whether French, American, or other, is get to know some Muslims. I mean, really get to know them.
When I first moved to Cairo in 2012, I was somewhat taken aback when some of my female high school students showed up every day with their heads covered. I wasn't used to it. But once I got to know them, the head coverings pretty much didn't matter. What mattered was how sweet, hard working, fun and pleasant they were. That's what matters.
Catholic nuns wear head coverings and flowing, cover-it-all garments. Don't know that I've seen a nun at the beach, but if I did, I'd be very surprised if she were wearing a string bikini just to fit in.
When I lived in Cairo (2012 - 2015), a third of the women wore the hijab (hair covered) and about 3-5% wore the niqab (everything covered but the eyes) - and yet about 90% of women reported being sexually harassed. The reason, I think, is simple - when you tell women they're responsible for what a male does, then the males get the notion they can do whatever the hell they want.
It's pretty clear the French edicts are founded on Islamophobia, the "phobia du jour." It's also clear that it's not easy fitting 7th century traditions into a 21st century society. I think the most important thing any of us can do, whether French, American, or other, is get to know some Muslims. I mean, really get to know them.
When I first moved to Cairo in 2012, I was somewhat taken aback when some of my female high school students showed up every day with their heads covered. I wasn't used to it. But once I got to know them, the head coverings pretty much didn't matter. What mattered was how sweet, hard working, fun and pleasant they were. That's what matters.
16
Why not just set aside beaches for strict Muslims who are made to wear a burkini? Maybe eventually assimilation will occur and they will no longer be necessary.
2
Muslims already have their own countries where they can dress as they please. Why do they have to move to France and expect France to change?
8
As a woman and atheist this is such a huge conflict for me. While I believe in people right's to religious freedom, I find most religious beliefs very denigrating to women and oppressive to people in general, particularly the most radical and conservative faiths. Ultimately, I must support an individual's right to express their religious beliefs in ways that don't harm others, even when I think they are woefully misguided and arbitrary rules created by insecure men. But don't judge me when I feel sympathy, not affinity, for the women who succumb to this. They, too, can question rules imposed on them and resist brainwashing.
11
I recall seeing country women in all-covering black dresses wading into the ocean in Greece back in 1966. So enjoying the ocean without exposing oneself to sun and the eyes of strangers might be as much a Mediterranean thing as a Muslim thing.
I've also seen a fully covered Muslim woman enjoying the beach a few steps away from topless sunbathers at a beach restaurant in France. To each her own, and there didn't seem to be any problem. Of course, that was four or five years ago.
I've also seen a fully covered Muslim woman enjoying the beach a few steps away from topless sunbathers at a beach restaurant in France. To each her own, and there didn't seem to be any problem. Of course, that was four or five years ago.
8
If modesty is so important in Islam, then why don't Muslim men wear burkinis to the beach? Aren't they worried about possibly tempting gay men? Aren't they worried that gay men might get lustful not be able to control themselves around a topless Muslim man at the beach? No, because they know how ridiculous this argument is, because in fact men CAN control themselves and their lustful desires. They just make this stuff up as a means to control women.
70
To me, this is clearly a case of forced conformity. Who owns the beaches, the water, our lives? Burkinis are not offensive in any way to those who are not wearing them: so why can't women wear what they want? Why, again, the fight over women's bodies? Let the women themselves decide.
15
What freedom does a Muslim woman have to decide?
7
A conservative (not even strict) reading of Sharia the Hadith are the very reason many women can not wear what they want. Muslim women have been deluded into a custom that's origin is to protect men from committing sex crimes. As long as women remained convered they will retain some protection from being the sexual perpetrator.
3
Well, burkinis are offensive to me. I live in a society where generations of women have fought for the rights we now enjoy and take for granted. To have Muslim women walking around with clothes that represent acceptance of their own discrimination is not what I want in Europe. When you cannot accept the societal norms of a country, do not live in it. This means I will never live in a Muslim country.
16
In London, at Harrods department store, I saw a young woman veiled in black from head to toe, just a slit for her eyes, accompanied by an older woman, similarly dressed. They carried designer handbags. Ten paces behind them, another young woman, dressed in a blouse and capri pants, carried all the shopping bags. There's a class element to this that people seem to ignore. Rich Saudis are veiled; their maids aren't.
8
Welcome to the new middle east. It is now located in the middle of Europe.
25
Are male lifeguards allowed to save them? How about mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
29
Let's strip and go nude. The French won't object to that!
14
This is a difficult issue. On the face of it it looks completely stupid. People should wear what they want when they swim. But many Muslim girls have no choice. For those who are making the comparison to nuns on a beach, nobody is born a nun. They choose it. A girl born into a very strict Muslim family has not chosen that. Sure, there are Muslim women who voluntarily choose to wear head scarfs and burkas and burkinis. But let's be honest, most do it because it is expected of them. The women themselves often fight for the right to be covered up, but they are so indoctrinated by their religion that they cannot see that they are oppressed. The clothing they wear is an outward sign of how little they are in charge of their own lives. France isn't against religion, it is against religion oppressing women. This isn't just about burkinis. These same women are at risk for being physically and emotionally abused. This is a women's rights issue, because otherwise where are all the men covering up their beautiful physiques? Some of those guys are seriously handsome. Aren't they worried that women are going to be filled with unbridled lust for them if they don't wear a baggy suit to swim in or cover their face? But modesty isn't what it is about, is it? It is about control. I feel so sad for these women-- they will be outcast by their communities if they do not conform, and if they do conform to their communities they are outcast by the general French society.
169
> "This is a difficult issue. On the face of it it looks completely stupid. People should wear what they want when they swim. But many Muslim girls have no choice. For those who are making the comparison to nuns on a beach, nobody is born a nun. They choose it."
@Laura, I was very opposed to this ban before I read your comment, but your argument has changed my mind
I now see this as a VERY sensible move to break up the systemic oppression or all females that Islam represents. Any notion that Islamic females have a meaningful free choice on how to dress is a joke. Maybe there are some enlightened Muslim families where females actually choose to dress in burkas and such on purely their own choice, but my guess is that they would represent only about 1% or less
@Laura, I was very opposed to this ban before I read your comment, but your argument has changed my mind
I now see this as a VERY sensible move to break up the systemic oppression or all females that Islam represents. Any notion that Islamic females have a meaningful free choice on how to dress is a joke. Maybe there are some enlightened Muslim families where females actually choose to dress in burkas and such on purely their own choice, but my guess is that they would represent only about 1% or less
5
Hear hear.
The bikini in it's own way is oppressive. It requires shaving, waxing, tanning, the right size chest (not too big not to small), no cellulite, and no fat. You can expect self righteous shaming if you don't meet these requirements. I'm not saying wearing a burkini is great, but the west too has ruthless set of expectations for women.
17
Your rules for bikini wearing do not apply in Europe, where hair, uneven chests, cellulite and fat are ruthlessly on display.
4
The bikini requires none of those things (maybe you've lived in California too long or have low self-esteem?), but what it affords is the beautiful experience of feeling the sun and the water on a maximum amount of skin area - of enjoying summer in a state that is as close to nature as possible, and being able to enjoy summer in a way that boys and men have for hundreds of years while women were cloaked in oppressive Victorian-style clothing. In most of America, very few women have all of the above "bikini requirements" that you've listed.
5
Girlfriend, we're getting over all that! Big girls are wearing them too now.
4
First generation immigrants are not the ones who assimilate most, but rather their children. We see in the article's accompanying picture a woman in a burqa with two children, both in western style bathing suits. If women are refused admittance to the beach because of how they dress, who will take their children--their husband? Doubt that. By instituting this ban, the French government will only prevent assimilation and harden religious, not secular, identification. What a short-sighted move.
13
The children are young and therefore allowed to wear western swimsuits. Once the girl goes through puberty she will not. But her brother will be able to continue to wear what he wants. When I lived in Sweden and there was a girl from a Muslim family who was living a normal Swedish life. She was killed by her family for having a Swedish boyfriend.
22
Freedom of religion should not extend to requiring one gender to cover its body in shame, while the other gender strolls shirtless.
I say kudos to France for standing up for secularism, women's rights, hygiene, and French culture. We certainly would not expect Muslim countries to allow women to go topless (or, in fact, even be allowed to get an education); why is there a double standard?
If Muslims feel uncomfortable, they have an easy option: vacation in Muslim countries, not France.
I say kudos to France for standing up for secularism, women's rights, hygiene, and French culture. We certainly would not expect Muslim countries to allow women to go topless (or, in fact, even be allowed to get an education); why is there a double standard?
If Muslims feel uncomfortable, they have an easy option: vacation in Muslim countries, not France.
40
As I have read the comments, and commented on the comments, one thought has crystallized. The French have an aversion to ostentatious display of religious symbols and has banned them. The burkini is one of those symbols. Just another item on an already existing list.
11
What's France's problem? Some of these women surely wear burkinis because that's what they're comfortable with at the beach. Should they be forced to wear regular bikinis or go topless just because that's what Brigitte Bardot did? Are they going to make police strip them at the beach?
I see a lot of other commenters here blasting Islam. But just think about the meltdown America would have if Arkansas passed a law requiring the Christian girls from "19 Kids and Counting" to wear miniskirts. Or imagine if Congress passed a resolution stating unequivocally that the planet isn't 6,000 years old. You'd have people waving guns around in the streets.
But, yeah, we think it's great that France is dictating what women wear to the beach. As long as they're Muslim women.
I see a lot of other commenters here blasting Islam. But just think about the meltdown America would have if Arkansas passed a law requiring the Christian girls from "19 Kids and Counting" to wear miniskirts. Or imagine if Congress passed a resolution stating unequivocally that the planet isn't 6,000 years old. You'd have people waving guns around in the streets.
But, yeah, we think it's great that France is dictating what women wear to the beach. As long as they're Muslim women.
9
France is tolerating Islam the best it can, not accepting it.
2
You've illustrated how France is actually more advanced than the US when it comes to modern secular society. There's a good portion of religious nuts in North America.
Bravo to France. The "burkini" is burkha-lite. Would all the liberal apologists on this site still be decrying this alleged oppression of Muslims if there were neighborhoods in France where wearing the burkha was required?
Just because something is construed as "culture" does not make it right. The veiling of women in the Muslim world is oppression, pure and simple. You can not claim that a woman has free will in deciding to wear a veil when she has been told from birth that not wearing one would be immodest and would bring great shame to the family.
Enough is enough.
Just because something is construed as "culture" does not make it right. The veiling of women in the Muslim world is oppression, pure and simple. You can not claim that a woman has free will in deciding to wear a veil when she has been told from birth that not wearing one would be immodest and would bring great shame to the family.
Enough is enough.
33
So, you want to tell a woman who has been "told from birth that not wearing a veil would be immodest and would bring great shame to the family" that she can't wear one?
Perhaps the real issue is not what women choose to wear but why. As long as it's their decision, without coercion or threat, then others should respect such choices. Having the option to wear or not wear what one chooses without retribution is the critical difference. That said, the burqa could reasonably be considered a public safety issue and not be allowed in public regardless of the woman's reason for choosing such a garment.
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3
I say let the women wear whatever they want. Islamic laws on women's dress say more about the (insecure) men who impose those laws than about the women who are affected by them. A woman's choice of attire should not be the issue.
If men really can't control themselves around women because of what they wear or how they appear, and these men continue to blame women and accuse women for the provocation of their own animalistic desires, bad behavior and inability to control themselves, then maybe men should be banned from the beach. Not the women.
If men really can't control themselves around women because of what they wear or how they appear, and these men continue to blame women and accuse women for the provocation of their own animalistic desires, bad behavior and inability to control themselves, then maybe men should be banned from the beach. Not the women.
10
ok! who is going to point out to these people what women were basically 'required' to wear in the 19th & early 20th centuries while bathing? i mean 'a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something shocking......"
the right is all into this 'freedom' stuff but every time you turn around they are proposing taking 'freedom' away! do they have a different definition than the rest of us?
the right is all into this 'freedom' stuff but every time you turn around they are proposing taking 'freedom' away! do they have a different definition than the rest of us?
8
This is so clearly an anti-Muslim attack. I don't agree with covering the whole body as a rule that women MUST obey, but surely it is not up to me what others wear. And for the first time this summer I saw women at the pool in the water who in past summers sat in the heat and watched their children enjoy the pool. I also know people who cannot expose themselves to the sun and wear very similar garments, wetsuits, etc. Are the banned? will they be asked what ideological purpose their garments convey? The xenophobic attitude in France now is perhaps understandable after three major attacks, but not acceptable.
10
I imagine, for perspective, having the government tell me that I must stop wearing tops at the beach – that I should just expose my chest publically, else get thrown out, for my own benefit.
You cannot stop oppression by punishing the oppressed – you stop oppression by punishing the oppressors.
Take, for example, prostitution. It became illegal in an effort to protect women from sex trafficking, but later many countries realized the law often hurt the vulnerable victims it intended to help, prompting revisions that made paying for prostitution illegal, but not providing the service.
Maybe we can apply a similar model here – make it illegal for men to buy, manufacture, sell, or possess burqas/conservative garments, not illegal for women to wear them. The effect? Making it difficult for men to produce, buy, or sell the garments removes them, and their oppressive influence, from the market, and would likely make men less keen on requiring them, as it poses criminal risk to them for getting involved. If a man cannot buy, make, or sell a burqa, the onus becomes entirely on the woman to procure one. Of course, there will still be demand for the traditional wear, but these jobs would then have to be delegated to women, thus also augmenting women’s station by adding more opportunities to work and learn marketable skills.
Making certain attire illegal does nothing, really, to help the plight of oppressed women. We really need to be addressing the men oppressing them.
You cannot stop oppression by punishing the oppressed – you stop oppression by punishing the oppressors.
Take, for example, prostitution. It became illegal in an effort to protect women from sex trafficking, but later many countries realized the law often hurt the vulnerable victims it intended to help, prompting revisions that made paying for prostitution illegal, but not providing the service.
Maybe we can apply a similar model here – make it illegal for men to buy, manufacture, sell, or possess burqas/conservative garments, not illegal for women to wear them. The effect? Making it difficult for men to produce, buy, or sell the garments removes them, and their oppressive influence, from the market, and would likely make men less keen on requiring them, as it poses criminal risk to them for getting involved. If a man cannot buy, make, or sell a burqa, the onus becomes entirely on the woman to procure one. Of course, there will still be demand for the traditional wear, but these jobs would then have to be delegated to women, thus also augmenting women’s station by adding more opportunities to work and learn marketable skills.
Making certain attire illegal does nothing, really, to help the plight of oppressed women. We really need to be addressing the men oppressing them.
12
THIS! Very well articulated. Punishing the oppressed is not the answer, and there is an obvious xenophobia lurking behind the cynical mayors creating these anti-freedom laws.
What happened to Liberte' France? Does the state get to tell people what they can wear now? Any catholic nuns hanging around those beaches?
Another stupid legacy of W's reaction to 9/11. Us vs them, all or nothing, with me or or against me.
Another American export, a heavy dose of stupidity. I hope there is an ACLU in France that will drag the French Govt to court. Lets send them some freedom fries so they can chill out
Another stupid legacy of W's reaction to 9/11. Us vs them, all or nothing, with me or or against me.
Another American export, a heavy dose of stupidity. I hope there is an ACLU in France that will drag the French Govt to court. Lets send them some freedom fries so they can chill out
2
"Another American export, a heavy dose of stupidity."
Laïcité is an entirely French concept, as the Times attempts to explain:
"Further complicating matters is the deeply held belief [in France] that government should not be tainted by religion, an idea referred to as laïcité, a concept for which there is no English translation."
Laïcité is an entirely French concept, as the Times attempts to explain:
"Further complicating matters is the deeply held belief [in France] that government should not be tainted by religion, an idea referred to as laïcité, a concept for which there is no English translation."
3
If people want to wear a burkini to the beach, let them. If they want a traditional bathing suit sporting a Swastika motif, let them. It is all in the eye of the beholder. (Not going to happen).
I wonder if a Catholic nun in full attire would be allowed to stroll these beaches.
2
Under French law, probably not. But a woman is not born a nun. A Muslim girl is born into this oppressive and ultimately silly way of life and has no choice in the matter.
8
My point is that a Catholic nun would indeed be permitted to stroll these beaches and that eliminates all but prejudice as the reason for these laws.
1
Ridiculous. Where do you draw the line between a woman in a burkini and someone, like myself, who covers up to protect my skin from the harmful effects of exposure to bright sunlight, or because I am overweight, or because I have stretchmarks, or because my large breasts hang low, or simply, like the woman in the burkini, because I am a modest person and don't want to strip down to a 2 inch square of swimsuit fabric over my pubic area while on a public beach. Where is the line between my freedom to dress in a way I feel comfortable with in public and her freedom to dress the way she wants. This is the type of silly hysteria that causes more problems than it solves.
95
Muslim women are twice punished for being female and trying to conform to the standards of modesty dictated by their viciously patriarchal religion. Let them enjoy a cool dip in whatever suit they choose. How about if instead we monitor men's hysterical fears and their incessant preoccupation with managing women's bodies.
20
What is Ms. Rossignol afraid of? What an archaic position to take! Let
women be free to wear whatever they want on beaches (and everywhere.) We've
gotten used to minimal coverage at the beach; why can't we get used to
maximum? No country has the right to dictate what women (to whatever religion
they belong) can or cannot wear. It's guns we should be incensed about, not
clothing.
women be free to wear whatever they want on beaches (and everywhere.) We've
gotten used to minimal coverage at the beach; why can't we get used to
maximum? No country has the right to dictate what women (to whatever religion
they belong) can or cannot wear. It's guns we should be incensed about, not
clothing.
8
Of all the things the French can do to integrate (as opposed to assimilate) their Muslim population this is the worst possible idea. After all, shouldn't an idea or ideology win on its own merit? As opposed to being "spread at the tip of the sword"?
France has a real issue: assimilation of its sizable Muslim population. That stems from the decades back poorly conceived immigration policy that generously handed citizenship to residents of their former colonies. But, with lack of equal opportunities for the immigrants and the entrenched European class based system, they effectively created a second class of citizens - just look at the banlieues... Now, they need to figure out how to address the inequities and integrate this large minority.
Pretty sure this action only applies a band aid to their own fears while further alienating the minority and contravening their own core values. Whatever happened to Je Suis Charlie?
Let the Muslim women debate the practicality or impracticality of the available attire options and themselves decide what's the right balance between personal modesty and personal freedom.
France has a real issue: assimilation of its sizable Muslim population. That stems from the decades back poorly conceived immigration policy that generously handed citizenship to residents of their former colonies. But, with lack of equal opportunities for the immigrants and the entrenched European class based system, they effectively created a second class of citizens - just look at the banlieues... Now, they need to figure out how to address the inequities and integrate this large minority.
Pretty sure this action only applies a band aid to their own fears while further alienating the minority and contravening their own core values. Whatever happened to Je Suis Charlie?
Let the Muslim women debate the practicality or impracticality of the available attire options and themselves decide what's the right balance between personal modesty and personal freedom.
5
To those who want to tell women what to or not to wear: PACK UP your junk and LEAVE, go to some totalitarian country that suites your beliefs, shoo, bye. You should not be allowed to live in any of the free, civilized countries. France, apparently, is not a free country but a misogynist fundamentalist country and it's off my personal map at this point (I'm pretty sure soon it'll be off the world's political map as well, give it 30 years). In the USA, we wear what we want and we have religious freedoms, protected by the Constitution, as well as multiple other freedoms that bigots such as those who favor burkini ban will never be able to infringe upon.
8
Good. Good for France. Glad to hear it. The religious covering of women is a moral abomination against women. It is religious aggression, and it results in non-covered Western women being considered sluts and whores and getting harassed. France is a sovereign nation and can define its culture and laws however it wants. If immigrants don't like it, they can leave. Are we going to go to Middle Eastern countries and force them to allow alcohol? No. If Muslims want women to be covered, then they shouldn't migrate to a country that is famous for nudie beaches. And no, opposing the subjugation of women is not racism. Islam is not a race, anyway. It's a religion with hateful views towards women, and yes, we do have a right to question these views.
30
So you're saying Muslim women should be forced to wear regular bikinis or go topless because that's what law says? How is that any better?
3
His comment clearly says burkini-wearers should not migrate to France.
6
This sort of limitation of personal freedom is so wrong in either direction. It's wrong to cover women up against their will and it's wrong to expose them against their will.
13
The way I see it, any clothing that is religiously worn to repress and isolate females should be banned in the West. The women wearing these Muslim burkini's aren't doing to to avoid skin cancer but because their religion demands they must be covered up head to toe, while their husband and boys may frolic in water in Western swim trunks. I stand by France in banning religiously misogynist swimwear and against political correctness.
20
Living in Quebec, one sees a similar refrain from the anti-Muslim crowd regarding head coverings etc., but frankly although their argument is for "freeing women from restrictions imposed by their faith", in reality it is pure and simple just anti Muslim, they don't want them on our beaches or in our society. We went to a waterpark on the weekend and I saw a number of women wearing these outfits. Frankly, they looked really nice. My wife's reaction was, she wouldn't mind having one. ( she has a problem with sunburn). The only reason one would be against them, is because they already have a fear of Muslims.
7
Your wife wouldn't mind having one? What if you told her she had to?
There is no choice here and the French government is right to ban the oppressive clothing. It's a manifestation of the Muslim systemic repression of women.
No, a burkini or burkha can never be a fashion statement. Even if you're carrying a Chanel handbag.
There is no choice here and the French government is right to ban the oppressive clothing. It's a manifestation of the Muslim systemic repression of women.
No, a burkini or burkha can never be a fashion statement. Even if you're carrying a Chanel handbag.
2
Banning it by law removes freedom as well, and stoops to the level of the supposed oppressors. Why can't the laws of a supposed free country take the moral gif ground and try to find a less freedom killing way to help Muslim women if that is in fact the goal??
Indeed, "politics, cultural prejudices and latent fear " after a terrible series of terrorist attacks attributed to Islamists "have newly inflamed the debate."
I have taken a look at the burkinis on the internet. They all look like hooded tracksuits, or hooded raincoats with matching pants. Some do remind me of street life in a conservative Muslim country.
Burkinis aren't different from what women in Europe wore two centuries ago, when they flocked to the beaches for recreation. They donned long gowns of thin cotton fabric with long sleeves, face-shading bonnets, shawls and gloves. Today looking at them they still evoke a sense of aesthetics, not a feeling of seeing a "lugubrious ghost in a long cape."
But it's also controversial to turn away Muslim women who - instead of wearing burkinis - just don everyday garb to cover their bodies on the beach. It makes them feel marginalised because of being Muslims.
I have taken a look at the burkinis on the internet. They all look like hooded tracksuits, or hooded raincoats with matching pants. Some do remind me of street life in a conservative Muslim country.
Burkinis aren't different from what women in Europe wore two centuries ago, when they flocked to the beaches for recreation. They donned long gowns of thin cotton fabric with long sleeves, face-shading bonnets, shawls and gloves. Today looking at them they still evoke a sense of aesthetics, not a feeling of seeing a "lugubrious ghost in a long cape."
But it's also controversial to turn away Muslim women who - instead of wearing burkinis - just don everyday garb to cover their bodies on the beach. It makes them feel marginalised because of being Muslims.
8
It's not imposing conformity, it's respecting the French culture. No one is forcing these immigrants to settle in France, but if they do they should adopt French ways. Also, the Muslim dress is misogynistic - the Koran doesn't require it, but the Mullas impose on women to control their sexuality.
10
Try as I might, I still can't cover my beautiful, male, permanent hijab/burqua/burkini -- my brown skin -- the same outerwear that some migrated 'male,' somewhere, long ago, decided to deem evil, bad, wrong, less than (and other negatives). Is melanin, then, my/our problem? Should I just cover everything except my eyes? Any suggestions are welcome for when I again go to a nude beach as to what to wear, or maybe just go at night, since I really don't need to sun bathe.
Hey, let's just coexist, huh? And remember where our other three fingers are pointing when we point a finger (or gun) at someone else.
Hey, let's just coexist, huh? And remember where our other three fingers are pointing when we point a finger (or gun) at someone else.
5
Suggesting that the burkini represents the enslavement of women by men is ironic indeed. Is not the traditional bikini the quintessential demonstration of man's transformation of woman into sexual object?
6
Yes, but way better!
1
There is no quintessentially transforming artifact: almost any artifact can and has been sexualized, fetishized.
2
What the article fails to do is find a Muslim woman with an opinion about her bathing costume. Why is she wearing it? What would be the consequences if she didn't? Is it comfortable or is it hot and cumbersome? What does she feel about what she sees other woman wearing (or not wearing)? At what age do a girl's curves "tempt" men; in other words, at what age is a Muslim girl in France required (by whomever) to wear a head-to-toe covering? Is there a specific age (six, maybe?) or is it a judgment call?
I'm interested in why these women wear what they are wearing, and the article only quoted largely clueless politicians.
I'm interested in why these women wear what they are wearing, and the article only quoted largely clueless politicians.
23
I can see this if it were someone's private pool; they could ban everything from nudity to a gorilla suit. But the ocean??? It is everybody's.
9
Once one reaches international waters.
There is a strong argument to be made that burqas, burqinis, and hijabs were themselves created by men trying to suppress female sexuality. Men control all religious organizations in Islam and always have. We rightly complain when Muslim countries deny women the right to vote, choose their husbands, or drive cars. Why can't we say no to oppressive clothing regimes? Muslim women are indoctrinated by their authoritarian society to be excessively modest as it serves the interests of their controlling fathers and jealous husbands.
9
Maybe it is time for French officials---and a number of NYT readers---to give up and just admit that this is just another form of religious harassment directed at Muslims and generated by the viscera of the French Far-Right.
Stop trying to rationalize it. Stop trying to excuse it. Stop trying to put a veil over it. It is so obvious as to be laughable and troublesome at the same time. No western country---including the U.S.---lacks a history of discrimination that targets a particular segment of the population, depending on the times. And no western country is not at present engaging in discrimination against particular segments of its population.
Stepping back from oppression first requires the admission of guilt, not the phony justification of discriminatory acts.
Stop trying to rationalize it. Stop trying to excuse it. Stop trying to put a veil over it. It is so obvious as to be laughable and troublesome at the same time. No western country---including the U.S.---lacks a history of discrimination that targets a particular segment of the population, depending on the times. And no western country is not at present engaging in discrimination against particular segments of its population.
Stepping back from oppression first requires the admission of guilt, not the phony justification of discriminatory acts.
8
I disagree. France is standing up for the rights of women to NOT be oppressed. And this affects ALL women, not just Muslim women.
7
Wouldn't the burkini impede swimming, a healthy exercise. All those layers of heavy wet cloth could drag a woman down in the current. There are modest neck to ankle bathing costumes without a superfluity of fabric that make swimming safer. Still, let them wear what they want to give them this small, circumscribed pleasure, and hope one day they will have more freedom.
10
After examining my feelings about seeing the hijab or Burka, I find that seeing this garb, my anti-Muslim bias kicks in (due to all the terrorism by so called Muslims) so I would like for Muslim women to take off the veil and other Muslim
garb so I could see these ladies as just average fellow women and not connect them( in my mind) to be related to the Muslim terrorist activities. Also the black garb and headscarves etc, help prevent (In my mind) their integration which is so desired.
garb so I could see these ladies as just average fellow women and not connect them( in my mind) to be related to the Muslim terrorist activities. Also the black garb and headscarves etc, help prevent (In my mind) their integration which is so desired.
Women (and men) should have the right to swim in their clothing of choice, as long as it permits them to maneuver safely in the water.
I am disgusted by the French bans on the bathing attire of Muslim women and fully support the lawsuits to overturn them. The bans are misogynistic and limit religious freedom.
I am disgusted by the French bans on the bathing attire of Muslim women and fully support the lawsuits to overturn them. The bans are misogynistic and limit religious freedom.
2
I am FINALLY glad to hear someone calling the entire Muslim World's fear of a woman's body and covering it up ARCHAIC, because that is what it is! old, antiquated and insulting. It's purely a control mechanism and one of subjugation and Muslim women need to start seeing it that way. God never intended to cover up anything beautiful- fat or skinny, old or young- all people are beautiful. The men all walk around in golf shirts and shorts and flip-flops while the women follow in long, dark, shapeless garb and it is sad and wrong and insulting to them. They are beautiful women under all of that. I do not see American men, or French men, or any man unable to control himself around a woman- even on the beaches of Barcelona in bikinis... they all are mature adults and do not succumb to desire and take action. Ridiculous, and this has been taught for a thousand years and the way Muslims appear to teach is with punishment, fear, retribution, intimidation. God has never advocated these things in his teachings of kindness, patience, self-respect, charity, and forgiveness. The body is beautiful, and women, especially Muslim women should have control of their lives everywhere- a woman has power and intelligence and she should use them to demand equality without fear of being stoned! All that said, personal preferences are fine, modesty, wishing to avoid the sun, all that- dress how you wish, but don't be told what to do! Thank you France for speaking up!
21
So, these towns are saying, "You're not allowed to enjoy our beaches unless you show everyone more of your body."
Tell me again ... who's enslaving women?
Tell me again ... who's enslaving women?
11
IMHO Muslim treatment of women, which includes burqas, burkinis, and the rest of that 'cover 'em up so men don't get lustful' is a bunch of the usual religious hokem, like lots of other stuff in all religions. BUT, if women are religiously enslaved or unknowledgeable enough to wear the things, let 'em. I'd like to see any woman in a burqa or burkini try to swim with all that water-soaked black material on. It would indeed be hilarious...not to mention probably muscle strengthening. Seems to me freedom to practice religion means freedom to practice religion, so long as the practice is at least safe (some question about that with respect to a water logged burkini), and isn't forcing anyone else to buy into someone else's religious nonsense. In a good secular society, however, religious advertisement in public places really shouldn't be allowed.
1
Telling people what they can wear in the water? They're starting to sound like fundamentalists themselves. Maybe Trump should hire the genius's who came up with this one.
7
Would Hillary wear a pantsuit to the beach?
If she did should she be fined?
Having been on exchange in France in high school and university, as well as returning several times since, I have yet to have a French person sufficiently explain to me how the separation of church and state requires the active oppression of minority religions. As school teachers, my host parents discussed how teachers couldn't wear the hijab or a turban, because then the children would ask questions and the answers would spark a dangerous discussion about culture and religion.
In a country where Liberté, Fraternité and Égalité are supposedly sacrosanct, it would appear that these terms are relative. Liberty, Solidarity and Equality, but only if you are French and only if you are Catholic.
In a country where Liberté, Fraternité and Égalité are supposedly sacrosanct, it would appear that these terms are relative. Liberty, Solidarity and Equality, but only if you are French and only if you are Catholic.
72
Because the French, and the Catholics that you cite, long ago modernized their thinking and have adopted an egalitarian, non-misogynistic philosophy.
5
It's an interesting twist when modesty becomes illegal. France is consuming itself.
64
I don't agree with the ban, but this is not about modesty. It's about oppression.
4
What would they do with a man walking down the beach wearing a business suit? That's not what I'd expect to see at the seashore, and I wouldn't do it myself, but it harms no one .
10
This is stupid, let people wear what they want. If obese people can wear next to nothing at the beach then Muslim women should be allowed wear Burkini's. France has been through some horrific times recently and this does nothing bar increase the divide and tension between different groups.
8
Living in Arizona, I do my best to limit skin exposure to the sun. However, I love to swim so I wear a large brim hat, a long sleeve spf 50 t-shirt type sun cover and knee length swim shorts in the pool. I don't think I will risk swimming in France!
3
The tyranny of the majority is the achilles heel of liberal, first world democracy.
Ah, the good ole days---to a 66 year-old Bronx Kid: Going to Mass and all the women wore veils on their heads; the old school Italian widows who always dressed in a simple black dress---even if their first, and only husband, had died twenty years before. Weddings where the bride wore white not just as a fashion statement but at least an open declared respect for virginity and self control before marriage, such a backward antiquated, though quaint, traditional value.
(Ever look at the pictures of the Miss America contestants bathing in '20's Atlantic City. Those modest one-piece jobs: so Victorian and unwith-It.
Or, from another angle. What if the "outlier" Hassids of Brooklyn and Spring Valley were an unpopular, and politically unimportant minority in NY State. Would a law forbidding wear heavy wool clothing---suitable for the Stetl and the Pale of Settlement, but not August NY--be considered valid. And what about forbidding sexist discrimination: forcing women to sit separately from men in their places of worship. And requiring yeshiva students to do trigonometry and computer science and not just the Talmud----too "Midrassa" like, all these arcane, medieval religious study.........Shalom and Enshallah---the same difference---No?
Ah, the good ole days---to a 66 year-old Bronx Kid: Going to Mass and all the women wore veils on their heads; the old school Italian widows who always dressed in a simple black dress---even if their first, and only husband, had died twenty years before. Weddings where the bride wore white not just as a fashion statement but at least an open declared respect for virginity and self control before marriage, such a backward antiquated, though quaint, traditional value.
(Ever look at the pictures of the Miss America contestants bathing in '20's Atlantic City. Those modest one-piece jobs: so Victorian and unwith-It.
Or, from another angle. What if the "outlier" Hassids of Brooklyn and Spring Valley were an unpopular, and politically unimportant minority in NY State. Would a law forbidding wear heavy wool clothing---suitable for the Stetl and the Pale of Settlement, but not August NY--be considered valid. And what about forbidding sexist discrimination: forcing women to sit separately from men in their places of worship. And requiring yeshiva students to do trigonometry and computer science and not just the Talmud----too "Midrassa" like, all these arcane, medieval religious study.........Shalom and Enshallah---the same difference---No?
5
Not wishing to further roil the already roiled waters, but could one not argue that the tyranny of religion, any and all religion, is the Achilles heel of liberal, first world democracy? Are they necessarily at odds? Does one preclude the other? Does not religion have its positive attributes as does liberal thought?
I leave these arguments to the theologians. OOOOPS they are religious. What's to do?
I leave these arguments to the theologians. OOOOPS they are religious. What's to do?
1
I fail to understand how it's religious to have the female covered from head to toe, walking behind the men who are wearing cotton short sleeved shirts, madras shorts and sandals in sweltering temperatures.
Having spent 12 years with teaching nuns wearing habits gave me not a glimmer of how that attire was in any way religious, either.
As to swimming in a burka (or a nun's habit), the weight of the garment and cumbersomeness is a great danger.
Covering women from head to toe doesn't have anything to do with religion, but it has everything with keeping women "in their place".
If people emigrate to a country, it is not unreasonable to expect a willingness to adopt the ways of that country. Maybe, a burkini is a move in that direction; maybe the next generation will be integrated.
Having spent 12 years with teaching nuns wearing habits gave me not a glimmer of how that attire was in any way religious, either.
As to swimming in a burka (or a nun's habit), the weight of the garment and cumbersomeness is a great danger.
Covering women from head to toe doesn't have anything to do with religion, but it has everything with keeping women "in their place".
If people emigrate to a country, it is not unreasonable to expect a willingness to adopt the ways of that country. Maybe, a burkini is a move in that direction; maybe the next generation will be integrated.
17
Sadly the women wearing burkas never had choices much less education, freedom to marry whom they love, choice in careers, and true freedoms such as their counterparts in France have by law and as a culture. Until you are truly free your position about having some choice in the clothing you wear in public is the identity of a female still in a submissive state.
5
The creeping "Islamification" of France and, by extension, Europe, has to be checked somewhere. The obligation of an immigrant is to assimilate into the culture to which they've relocated, not attempt to make their new home conform to the place they chose to leave. People in America do not fully grasp the tension between the dominant culture (European) and the invading one (Muslim).
I, for one, do not wish to see the land of my forebears become a western annex of the Muslim world.
I, for one, do not wish to see the land of my forebears become a western annex of the Muslim world.
15
We have a water park here in Fairfax, Virginia and now and then there are one or two women in burkinis. It's kind of no big deal. Any wonder we don't fear for our safety here in Northern Virginia, where multiculturalism is the norm?
1
Ah, Virginia: where oppression and freedom coexist.
2
If a man were to wear a scuba diver's full body "wet suit," which exposes only his face, feet and hands, at Cannes, or other beaches on the French Rivera, no one would object. Why should the French government prohibit women from wearing similar attire, if not on the basis of intolerance? Muslim women already face the burdens of second-class status imposed by the religious leaders of their faith; why should the French government add to those burdens, which effectively ban them from the use of public beaches?
98
A Muslim man may choose to wear what he wants. When that extends to all Muslim women, then this won't be an issue. It is objectionable to condone this oppression of women in public spaces, and is completely contrary to a modern egalitarian society.
6
> "If a man were to wear a scuba diver's full body "wet suit," which exposes only his face, feet and hands, at Cannes, or other beaches on the French Rivera, no one would object. Why should the French government prohibit women from wearing similar attire,
I don't support THIS ban, but this nonsensically named "burkini" is not the equivalent in any way to a scuba suit
** Any person swimming in a burkini is more susceptible ot drowning, but certainly not scuba
** I have never seen any person hanging out at a beach while wearing a scuba suit, and it would be insane, unless it was very cold outside
I don't support THIS ban, but this nonsensically named "burkini" is not the equivalent in any way to a scuba suit
** Any person swimming in a burkini is more susceptible ot drowning, but certainly not scuba
** I have never seen any person hanging out at a beach while wearing a scuba suit, and it would be insane, unless it was very cold outside
1
We like to believe that we are not involved in an epic culture clash, because that plays into the terrorist narrative ... but why is it that so many in our liberal democracies are offended on a gut level by the display of what we see as religiously enforced women's subjugation? It does not strike us as symbolic free exercise of religion such as Jewish kipa or a large cross around the neck. It strikes many of us as barbaric repression of women, primitive and cruel. It goes without saying that our said repulsion is itself seen as intolerant rejection of another religion's values. I would say that there is, unfortunately, a culture clash. A real one.
11
Several people commenting have asked how a nun in a habit would be treated in comparison. To which I say... I'm so glad you brought this up. A nun is an official representative of the Catholic Church. Let's take a look at the Muslim equivalent. Well I guess we could... if there actually was one... which there isn't because of numerous mysogynistic reasons. I will also point out a nun becomes a nun - and dons a habit - out of choice.
On the other hand, Islam does not deem it acceptable for women to hold official positions within the faith, let alone be seen or heard. Instead, Muslim women are on the whole indoctrinated en masse and for the most part forced to wear oppressive clothing - physically and otherwise - which serves as religious advertising of sorts.
With those crystal clear differences in mind, I would say a nun would rightly be welcomed onto the beach. Even so it would be quite strange these days for nuns to be wearing full habits in such a situation.
On the other hand, Islam does not deem it acceptable for women to hold official positions within the faith, let alone be seen or heard. Instead, Muslim women are on the whole indoctrinated en masse and for the most part forced to wear oppressive clothing - physically and otherwise - which serves as religious advertising of sorts.
With those crystal clear differences in mind, I would say a nun would rightly be welcomed onto the beach. Even so it would be quite strange these days for nuns to be wearing full habits in such a situation.
5
Just one more effort to police women's bodies and their garb. If someone prefers to be on a beach, dressed modestly, they should be left alone.
34
Irony thy name is the "burkini ban."
5
could explain me the concept of dressing modestly ? Is it universal, does it link with your sexual value ? Your moral rules ?
You miss the point. It is a government's rejection, not acceptance, of misogyny. This is not forcing anyone to wear anything specific, but the opposite.
3
Maybe the emphasis should be on safety. If someone is wading into the water and might need the services of a lifeguard, then the wearing of full body loose clothing could jeopardize the safety of both. Simple, ban " ALL" persons with loose clothing from setting foot in the water for lifeguard safety.
8
Better yet, require everyone to wear floatation devices. :-)
2
A friend of mine who lives in Utrecht, Holland described to me what it's like living in her community now. She said she used to be able to walk freely anywhere, in any neighborhood regardless of what she was wearing without being harassed. She described it as a "free society" not having to worry about her safety. Now in some areas where there is a larger Muslim, immigrant population she is frequently called a "whore" by random men on the street. Her crime...wearing short sleeves. Now she is the one who has to cover up as to not be harassed in a place she has called home for over 50 years because some immigrants do not respect the laws of where they now reside. She also said if you report these incidents you are branded a "racist" by the authorities because you are not respecting a particular religion. People may not like the band on Burkinis but the situation in Europe is at a boiling point.
188
In Fairfax, Virginia, a DC suburb, women in burkas on the streets, in high schools, in the pool is just no big deal for us. That said, the US hasn't taken on its share of refugees as Europe has, so I kind of understand that their issues will be different. Still, you can't fight bad behavior with bad behavior.
3
I have been responding to others when they gave the example of Saudi Arabia intolerance - that we are better than them.
However, I do feel that if immigrants come and try to impose their moral code on their adoptive country then they should be deported - no question.
The answer is not to ban clothing but rather apply the existing laws against these folks trying to muzzle your friend and others.
I have seen this behavior (Muslim men shaming western women on clothes) first hand in East Ham (London) outside the mosque near the tube station and my response to that was - lock these guys up and send them back. The answer cannot be that England bans Burkas.
However, I do feel that if immigrants come and try to impose their moral code on their adoptive country then they should be deported - no question.
The answer is not to ban clothing but rather apply the existing laws against these folks trying to muzzle your friend and others.
I have seen this behavior (Muslim men shaming western women on clothes) first hand in East Ham (London) outside the mosque near the tube station and my response to that was - lock these guys up and send them back. The answer cannot be that England bans Burkas.
10
"Now she is the one who has to cover up as to not be harassed in a place she has called home for over 50 years..."
I believe this is what the burkini bans are trying to prevent. The burkini is an attempt to redefine what's "modest" in the public sphere.
I believe this is what the burkini bans are trying to prevent. The burkini is an attempt to redefine what's "modest" in the public sphere.
Hasn't this become too complicated? I understand the ban on face scarves for security purposes but how is it anyone's right to regulate what another human being wears on the beach? The idea of banning burkinis is no better than the idea of religious extremists telling women that they must cover up. It's up to the individual - and no one else.
19
I am not Muslim (or any religion), but I am extremely sensitive to the sun and have to cover myself head-to-to or risk severe burns. I haven't been to the beach in nearly 40 years. Maybe with these new stylish burkinis I'll venture forth again.
19
@Beth. Check on line. There are new garments to protect from the sun. Bought some from a shop in Hawaii for my granddaughter. All kids should wear them. Then we would have less skin cancer.
1
My wife has third degree burn marks on her thighs and calf.She wears a one piece swimsuit that covers her legs and she loves going to the beach. I guess in France she will be thrown out of the beach
4
There are swim suits for the very religiously conservative in the U.S. which cover the neck and upper chest, limbs and have skirts. Imagine banning those, the hue and cry of persecuting Christians. Yet I daresay many who approve of the ban targeting Muslim women would have a hissy fit if the tables were turned.
97
You are removing this from its context, an error of magnification and distortion usually (and wrongly) attributed to the "very religiously conservative". Christians do not threaten to upend fundamental tenets of Western civilization. Very many Muslims do, and have gone to tremendous, destructive lengths to show it.
3
While it is easy to blame those conservative Christians, we must realise that the Republican party (and especially Trump) are not the official spokesperson for Christians. While they often vote republican, it does not mean they agree with them. Like just because many African-Americans vote democrat, that does not mean they have anything in common with Hillary. Some of my friends are Christians who are disgusted with Trump and the republican party's desire to ban people based on religion. All I am saying is that Republican does not equal Christian so we should not generalise. Just my 1 and 9/10th of a cent.
LInda, I would bet a large sum that you firmly believe that religion is a dangerous force in general, and that Christianity is the most dangerous religion of all. This conviction, at the heart of the French political quest for a purely secular society, has ultimately led to this reprehensible intolerance of Muslim women practicing their faith. Not only that, the shocking paternalism and denial of individual freedom and conscience rights exhibited by those who approve the ban because it indicates a lower status of women is part of the package. The state knows best; individuals and their beliefs and consciences must take a seat at the back of the bus.
I have not read any statements in this comment section that indicate religiously observant people are approving of this ban. Quite the contrary. Other comments signal approval based on the necessity of liberating women to experience bare skin in the fresh ocean breezes and salty water - a sensual reason not a religious one.
In the U.S., our history of preserving and protecting religious freedom broadly defined means that often Muslims enjoy significantly more religious freedom here than in their (Muslim) country of origin.
I have not read any statements in this comment section that indicate religiously observant people are approving of this ban. Quite the contrary. Other comments signal approval based on the necessity of liberating women to experience bare skin in the fresh ocean breezes and salty water - a sensual reason not a religious one.
In the U.S., our history of preserving and protecting religious freedom broadly defined means that often Muslims enjoy significantly more religious freedom here than in their (Muslim) country of origin.
Another example of holding women accountable for something imposed by men. Shaming someone doesn't fix the issue. The issue is the underlying sexism in the name of religion and the fact that women are responsible for the sexual urges of men; or in other words, that men are incapable of controlling themselves?
Untying the sexism that is interwoven into religious beliefs--now that's obviously dicey.
Untying the sexism that is interwoven into religious beliefs--now that's obviously dicey.
15
I supported the French ban on face coverings for teachers some years ago, because it made sense in facilitating learning for children to be able to see facial expressions and hear a teacher clearly. The burkini ban, on the other hand, is just silly. At the beaches in India, you see womem in the water in their saris.
10
Stupid men, all of them. After 55 years of island living and wearing spf clothing and sun screen I have splotchy, blotchy skin and expect some day to also come down with basal cell skin cancer.
When I go kayaking, boating or to the beach I wear a long sleeved spf rash guard, my hair tucked under a had with a five inch brim and a pair of spf, Columbia brand long pants that are usually worn by fly fishermen.
I'm don't practice Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other "ity" or "ism" and woe to the man that would attempt to alter my outdoor manner of dress.
I just wish more women and their children would dress in a more modest way at the beach and reduce there chances of developing skin cancer.
When I go kayaking, boating or to the beach I wear a long sleeved spf rash guard, my hair tucked under a had with a five inch brim and a pair of spf, Columbia brand long pants that are usually worn by fly fishermen.
I'm don't practice Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other "ity" or "ism" and woe to the man that would attempt to alter my outdoor manner of dress.
I just wish more women and their children would dress in a more modest way at the beach and reduce there chances of developing skin cancer.
18
agree with you, but i don't believe that the color of you beach's clothe is mostly black. i can even affirm that if i look at your beach's clothes, i can find that you don't follow one the most rigorous ways of the Islams.
and always the same, but who judges of the modesty of clothes ?
and always the same, but who judges of the modesty of clothes ?
2
The purpose of an spf rash guard is to prevent sun damage. The purpose of a burkini is to make sure you're not tempting helpless men into raping you. The burkini sends a powerfully negative message about women's bodies and rights and is not comparable to sporting attire.
1
People are unnerved, and have every right to be. Living with the constant threat (and fear!) that somewhere, at sometime or another, there's going to be another attack or explosion, is as undaunting as it is terrifying.
Unfortunately, all of this terrorism has come under the guise of Islam, and anything that has something to do with it -- like the Burkini.
It's even more unfortunate, that there are so many civil and social laws that all get in the way of each other.
Observant Muslim women have every right to go to the beach, as those who feel uncomfortable at the sight of them -- and both have the right and the need to be heard.
In the end, that will be the only way to solve this problem.
Unfortunately, all of this terrorism has come under the guise of Islam, and anything that has something to do with it -- like the Burkini.
It's even more unfortunate, that there are so many civil and social laws that all get in the way of each other.
Observant Muslim women have every right to go to the beach, as those who feel uncomfortable at the sight of them -- and both have the right and the need to be heard.
In the end, that will be the only way to solve this problem.
2
While in this instance it seems petty and nonsensical given the fact that people go swimming in "T" shirts, pants, wear hats in the water, etc., it emphasizes a point that the French are trying to make. Individual display of religious affiliation, and, in fact, many other symbols dilute the sense of nation. Tolerance is of course necessary, but that tolerance needs only extend to private activity, not public ones.
Every nation has regulations regarding public behavior. So where does the limit lie? In the US ,swimming naked on public beaches is illegal outside of specifically designated areas. Why should that be? What makes the French decision so outlandish in that light? One might suspect that that acceptable limit is the one favored by the majority of its citizens. I submit that most in France are in favor.
Every nation has regulations regarding public behavior. So where does the limit lie? In the US ,swimming naked on public beaches is illegal outside of specifically designated areas. Why should that be? What makes the French decision so outlandish in that light? One might suspect that that acceptable limit is the one favored by the majority of its citizens. I submit that most in France are in favor.
22
While I think you have a great question in your second paragraph I find the implications of your deployment of the "public" in the first paragraph disturbing.
Sorry, but this is good news.
I'd be nervous if someone walked into a bank with a mask and bulletproof vest on, even if they told me they were just wearing those things because it was their "religion."
Your personal religion shouldn't give you the right to make everyone else around you wholly uncomfortable and nervous.
I'd be nervous if someone walked into a bank with a mask and bulletproof vest on, even if they told me they were just wearing those things because it was their "religion."
Your personal religion shouldn't give you the right to make everyone else around you wholly uncomfortable and nervous.
38
A mask and bulletproof vest in a bank seems a little more threatening than a long dress on a beach.
This isn't even an "apples and oranges" kind of comparison. It feels more like "apples and goldfish" or "apples and the earth's molten core." That said, it is quite revealing with respect to the mindset of the commenter that a person wearing a mask and bulletproof vest walking into a bank would be analogous to a woman wearing a "burkini" at the beach.
Let that sink in for a moment people and only then will you understand how the gears are turning in these people's minds.
Let that sink in for a moment people and only then will you understand how the gears are turning in these people's minds.
6
Female Muslim garb is a sorry painful sight to my European eyes. When we are fighting for equal pay and rising forcefully against sexual harassment, seeing women covered from head to tow is nothing but a disheartening setback; a perfect way to show women as incompetent in standing up for our own rights and practically schizophrenic in how we want to be treated.
It's difficult and often risky to balance freedom of religion with social progress. They are both equally legitimate goals but also sometimes at odds with each other. In the end it is up to each individual society to decide how they want to go forward together and what their top priorities are. The French are clear on this and their decision should be respected. France never was and never will be Algeria.
It's difficult and often risky to balance freedom of religion with social progress. They are both equally legitimate goals but also sometimes at odds with each other. In the end it is up to each individual society to decide how they want to go forward together and what their top priorities are. The French are clear on this and their decision should be respected. France never was and never will be Algeria.
44
Have you seen the way that many Amish, Mennonite, and fundamentalist Mormon women dress, right here in America?
2
Yes … and they look soooo boring!
4
So what happens when a woman wants to wear a full body wetsuit and a swim cap to the beach? Will that be "locking away a woman's body", too? Intolerance in the name of liberty and country - it's a pandemic.
7
very funny, i love your humor
Commenters- try to understand. We are talking about women forced to wear, basically, a funeral shroud everywhere they go. The burka is a way to make women invisible, to take away their God-given right to exist on this planet. The burka is an abomination. It stands for darkness and ignorance.
France has a right to be France, and they support the rights of ALL women all over the world whenever they ban the headscarf, burka, burka-swim wear, all of it. All that clothing, it's all meant to totally and completely oppress and debase half of humankind. It's morally wrong!
France has a right to be France, and they support the rights of ALL women all over the world whenever they ban the headscarf, burka, burka-swim wear, all of it. All that clothing, it's all meant to totally and completely oppress and debase half of humankind. It's morally wrong!
112
Let's support their independence, then, by allowing them to choose their own beach outfits, rather than imposing our own opinions on them.
Your assumption that all Muslim women feel "forced" do dress the way they do is insulting. Muslim women can believe in their religion's rules just as sincerely as the men can.
No one is asking you to wear one.
Your assumption that all Muslim women feel "forced" do dress the way they do is insulting. Muslim women can believe in their religion's rules just as sincerely as the men can.
No one is asking you to wear one.
10
Yes, but they are then effectively banning Muslim women from swimming at all. They don't have a choice... In yet another area of life.
Maybe they should ban Muslim men from beaches since they seem to be ones convinced it's impossible to maintain self control.
Maybe they should ban Muslim men from beaches since they seem to be ones convinced it's impossible to maintain self control.
3
And so it's not up to the woman herself to make that choice for herself? If you find it morally wrong, then please, don't wear it. You don't know the mindset of an observant Islamic woman. She comes from a totally different culture than yours. Maybe she doesn't see it the way you do.
I once spent several months in India staying at the home of a family while I was studying yoga with an older teacher. His daughter-in-law, who had a Masters in biology, had assumed the role of bahu, meaning that it was her job to cook and take care of the house. I once asked her how she felt about this, and to my surprise, she had mixed feelings. She missed doing science, but she also did feel a connection to the tradition. So let's not prejudge what another thinks and feels who comes from a totally different society and culture than ours.
I once spent several months in India staying at the home of a family while I was studying yoga with an older teacher. His daughter-in-law, who had a Masters in biology, had assumed the role of bahu, meaning that it was her job to cook and take care of the house. I once asked her how she felt about this, and to my surprise, she had mixed feelings. She missed doing science, but she also did feel a connection to the tradition. So let's not prejudge what another thinks and feels who comes from a totally different society and culture than ours.
6
The article says, “One was wearing a long-sleeve T-shirt and pants with a head scarf, and another was wearing an actual competition bathing suit, like they wear in the Olympics, and a bathing cap, and she was taken off the beach."
Clearly, some French have soared off the high diving board into an empty pool and sustained massive brain damage.
Clearly, some French have soared off the high diving board into an empty pool and sustained massive brain damage.
22
This is, of course, total, unadulterated racist nonsense. The French, like a lot of other European nations allow women to present themselves topless on beaches, and why not? Only in puritanical countries like America, is such behaviour not allowed. We do, however, permit Amish women to bathe fully clothed.
9
Wonder how the Amish get to the beach. I have never seen a horse and buggy going there. Besides the Amish do not force us to accept them. We do so because they don't kill people or blow themselves up. The are PEACEFUL.
3
The French press and much of the government prefers to focus on polemics such as the burkini rather than discuss the need to reform its economy. Unemployment and the manner in which its causes are explained in the mainstream news media here are contributing to society's malaise.
6
I would never choose to live in a city dominated by intolerance - either from the government or from the people who live there.
7
I would never choose to belong to a religion that demanded I cover myself in a funeral shroud at all times, because my body is a threat to men.
2
All decent people should wear clothing from head to toe on public beaches worldwide. Men should wear a coordinated suit. Women a full-length dress. Shoes should be required. And hats. And no swimming. Such behavior is unseemly.
15
This is religious persecution. I am not religious anymore, but I accept that the vast majority of people on this planet follow some kind of faith in the supernatural. Some religious practices and traditions are bothersome to me, but as long as no one is being hurt, I really don't care what people do. Muslim women seem to attract excessive condemnation for covering their bodies to extremes that the Western world shed over 100 years ago. A government is not going to "liberate" these women by refusing them the right to wear Muslim garments in public places. Most of these women are so indoctrinated to the idea of covering their bodies, it would be unthinkable for them to wear Western clothing, much less a modern bathing suit. Reactions like those of the French mayors in this article are only going to fan the flames of bigotry and intolerance on both sides of the issue.
21
Can't 'laïcité' be translated as 'secularism?' I am actually in favor of the ban on the hijab,the burqua. head scarves,yarmulkas (kippas), etc. in public places. Laïcité in public spaces in France is pure pleasure. How nice NOT to know what sect or religion your neighbor embraces.This discretion often extends to not knowing their marital status. their age, their political affiliation and their profession. What a relief!
54
It's a tough one when looking at it form both sides. Growing up in Roman Catholic Quebec we admired the nuns who were fully covered head to toe. Can't say I ever saw any at the beach, or at least not in their habit. I see the burkini as upsetting as I resent what it represents. However, I resent the idea of restricting a woman's access to water and a lovely time in the sea. I think the first step is telling them to stop wearing black as it is much too warm in the sun! As I age, I cringe a bit at the idea of pulling the t-shirt off to reveal the bikini that should perhaps be replaced with a burkini! I hear cruel comments on the beach with regards to others with less that perfect bodies... arghhh! I think we could all get around the burkini if they they didn't have the head scarf on.. It's funny isn't it.. groan
10
Saw the same thing on a North Carolina beach last week. The women wobbling in the water in heavy clothes nearly head to toe, while the kids and men (of course) wear whatever they want. It's up to these women to change who gets to define Womanhood in their community. So rock that bikini, ladies, and never mind what the Sister painted into a corner does.
28
Every dermatologist in the country is in favor of bikinis to add to their earnings when the women get Basal cell, squamous cell, or worst, melanoma cancers. Actually they aren't, but their offices are full of people like my husband who never wore sun block, and as a redhead in his youth has had about a hundred skin cancer surgeries. Four more scheduled when his doctor gets back from vacation.
1
Who is worse now, France or Taliban?
The French should be ashamed of themselves for banning personal choice and freedom. What is next, forcing Orthodox Jewish women to dress mini skirts? Catholic nuns to take off their head gear?
Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave
The French should be ashamed of themselves for banning personal choice and freedom. What is next, forcing Orthodox Jewish women to dress mini skirts? Catholic nuns to take off their head gear?
Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave
8
"Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave"
TJ was American, not French. Can't you think of a French person to help you make your point?
TJ was American, not French. Can't you think of a French person to help you make your point?
Another example of policing the female body. What say should any government have over what a woman or man wears to the beach or anywhere else? None.
12
The Burka, in addition to being a symbol of women's theoretical inferiority to men, is a symbol of contempt for women who dress in the European way. But freedom of expression is freedom of expression, and it should not be banned.
Instead it should be condemned, loudly, publicly, and continuously.
As long as those who cling to superstition are allowed to feel morally superior to the rest of us it will be impossible to integrate them into a single, multi-cultural community. Until they change they will remain colonists from another world.
Instead it should be condemned, loudly, publicly, and continuously.
As long as those who cling to superstition are allowed to feel morally superior to the rest of us it will be impossible to integrate them into a single, multi-cultural community. Until they change they will remain colonists from another world.
6
I'm afraid that these fear based reactions will only further divide people and impede progress towards assimilation.
9
Laicite is just another excuse to tell women what to do with their bodies. I'm not Muslim but if I want to wear a long sleeve body suit to the beach I can't? I'm supposed to conform to what people expect to see? That's boloney! I choose what kind of suit I wear, not the mayor of a provincial town.
15
I get the "let them where what they want" idea. My reply:
a. In Muslim families where attire is important, girls stop having a choice when they reach puberty. They don't have the freedom to choose.
b. The burkini is not mere beachwear; it's an emblem of religion brought into the public sphere.
Imagine if someone brought a ten-foot cross to the beach and planted it in the sand. Then another did the same. A point would arrive at which beachgoers would say, Enough.
In a situation sufficiently complicated as to challenge philosophers, I come down on the side of French culture.
a. In Muslim families where attire is important, girls stop having a choice when they reach puberty. They don't have the freedom to choose.
b. The burkini is not mere beachwear; it's an emblem of religion brought into the public sphere.
Imagine if someone brought a ten-foot cross to the beach and planted it in the sand. Then another did the same. A point would arrive at which beachgoers would say, Enough.
In a situation sufficiently complicated as to challenge philosophers, I come down on the side of French culture.
19
To me this ban is in a class with the once famous "freedom fries". What is acceptable on French beaches? Are turbans not allowed to Sikhs? Yarmulkes to
Orthodox Jews? Bare breasts? What about people who wear Yankee baseball caps? Or people who wear them, but wear them backwards.
12
Are the french people forgetting that they too hide women's bodies just in different ways. Women cannot walk down the street with their breasts or genitals out. It would "tempt" the opposite sex and for cultural reasons women find it comfortable to cover up. Don't judge how one society covers up. In some tribes women are completely naked and to them we must seem repressed and in chains with our shorts and shirts covering us.
8
Yes, but as a Western woman I can choose how to wear my clothes and what clothes to wear. Yes, I cannot go topless. However, i can show as much or as little cleavage as I wish, or as tight or loose-fitting a top as I wish. I can wear jeans or a skirt. If I were Muslim, however, I would have no choice in the matter.
1
Women should be free to wear bathing suits that cover them as much as they choose. Hard to believe that this is being outlawed. The problem belongs to those who are biased and make a deal out of it. On another note, as an older woman who loves the beach and would prefer not to be there near-naked, I've been seriously looking at these burkinis and would love to try one!!
20
As a older woman who would rather not expose her aging wrinkles, lumps, and bumps, I've adopted a new bathing costume of long spandex pants and a rash guard long-sleeved neck-high shirt over a sports bra. It is so relaxing to be able to swim here in the U.S. in something one feels comfortable in. I understand where the French are coming from, but our country has shown there is a better way to assimilate immigrants than to offend them by banning their dress. No one in this would interpret my bathing costume as a political statement.
7
This seems so wrong and unfrench too, for one of our great mother countries of freedom, civil liberties and fundamental rights. Also I have skin lupus and need cover up to protect my skin from the sun, will I be forced to uncover when I visit France? This makes no sense on so many levels.
19
What is more un-French than Sharia?
When I was a child I went to Bible camp in Louisiana and although we had separate gender swim hours, most of the girls would wear full body clothing to swim in. I thought it was weird but I would never imagine telling them that is banned and that they had to expose their bodies was the solution!! I think France is trying to do the right thing to push equality within Muslim communities in France but is utterly confused and frankly acting idiotic.
14
Contrary to what is affirmed, the concept of "laicite" corresponds very closely to the English word "secularity". Just check a dictionary.
4
There are whole books on laïcité, so a dictionary definition is not sufficient to understand the concept:
"Qu'est-ce que la laïcité ?" (What is laïcité?)
by Catherine Kintzler
Vrin, 2007
https://books.google.com/books?id=-Porsk2Gx7sC
"Qu'est-ce que la laïcité ?" (What is laïcité?)
by Catherine Kintzler
Vrin, 2007
https://books.google.com/books?id=-Porsk2Gx7sC
I agree with the few people in this forum that have seen through the hypocrisy of the ban IF it's not applied to catholic nuns, as well. And why stop with women? I find a priest frock and religious vestments terribly offensive. The French, as well as the world at large should ban men and women from wearing "religious" silly clothes. Period.
6
I doubt most readers have experienced French beaches, but they are nothing like American ones.
In Cannes and the French Riviera generally, most children are nude, most women are topless, and many men and women are nude. Nudism doesn't correlate with attractiveness. People wearing swimsuits are left alone, but those who also act unduly interested or scandalized by nudity are often asked by others and by lifeguards to leave or confine themselves to the part of the beach closest to parking lot. Under these circumstances, it's not difficult to appreciate that the presence of burkini-clad people would be as unwelcome as a nudist is on an American beach.
Unless Americans are willing to defend the right of nudists to stroll American beaches en flagrante, we shouldn't criticize French efforts to maintain their cultural norms.
In Cannes and the French Riviera generally, most children are nude, most women are topless, and many men and women are nude. Nudism doesn't correlate with attractiveness. People wearing swimsuits are left alone, but those who also act unduly interested or scandalized by nudity are often asked by others and by lifeguards to leave or confine themselves to the part of the beach closest to parking lot. Under these circumstances, it's not difficult to appreciate that the presence of burkini-clad people would be as unwelcome as a nudist is on an American beach.
Unless Americans are willing to defend the right of nudists to stroll American beaches en flagrante, we shouldn't criticize French efforts to maintain their cultural norms.
117
You misread American sentiment, I believe. The majority of Americans see the Burka and similar garments as the misogynistic items that they are. Even though we don't have many nude beaches (we do have quite a few, by the way), we 'get' why that garb is inappropriate.
3
Another note on French cultural norms:
I was once excluded from a swimming pool in France because I was wearing bathing trunks. The pool required all males to wear tight speedo-style swimsuits.
All this might be anathema to Americans, but the French are unapologetically French. Telling them they need a First Amendment and such would only prompt a derisive laugh.
And @Severna1, while Americans may or may not see the burka as misogynistic, Americans do not intervene in religious dress decisions other than to ensure the right to religious expression is respected. The French emphatically do NOT respect religious dress - they view religious expressions in public - misogynistic or not - as a threat to secular life, and there's no right to it.
I was once excluded from a swimming pool in France because I was wearing bathing trunks. The pool required all males to wear tight speedo-style swimsuits.
All this might be anathema to Americans, but the French are unapologetically French. Telling them they need a First Amendment and such would only prompt a derisive laugh.
And @Severna1, while Americans may or may not see the burka as misogynistic, Americans do not intervene in religious dress decisions other than to ensure the right to religious expression is respected. The French emphatically do NOT respect religious dress - they view religious expressions in public - misogynistic or not - as a threat to secular life, and there's no right to it.
1
Severna1: "The majority of Americans see the Burka and similar garments as the misogynistic items that they are."
Please speak for yourself. Some Americans see "the Burka and similar garments" as expressions of religious belief. See:
Muslim Woman Denied Job Over Head Scarf Wins in Supreme Court
By ADAM LIPTAK
JUNE 1, 2015
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/us/supreme-court-rules-in-samantha-ela...
Please speak for yourself. Some Americans see "the Burka and similar garments" as expressions of religious belief. See:
Muslim Woman Denied Job Over Head Scarf Wins in Supreme Court
By ADAM LIPTAK
JUNE 1, 2015
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/us/supreme-court-rules-in-samantha-ela...
2
My sympathy to the Muslim women who are burdened with the responsibility of mitigating the male sex drive, and must be buried under layers of dark drapery in sweltering climates. What is covered becomes erotic to the viewer when uncovered. In Renaissance Europe the sight of a woman's exposed wrist and a bit of forearm was a turn on. At the turn of the 20th century America and Europe a glimpse of a stockinged ankle was a treat. Pity the person who can't enjoy the rush of the cool ocean on bare skin, and soak up some vitamin D while they are at it.
150
True, but it is the state in this case that is denying these women the cooling effect of ocean water when otherwise buried under layers of dark drapery. They lose either way. Better they should lose from their choice of religion than from conformity imposed by the state.
I do pity them, but I don't think it's right to ban their choice of clothing.
1
very well said.
It's so shortsighted. The burkini is a wonderful piece of clothing because it allows observant Muslim women to go swimming, to cool off, to have fun, like any other person. If the burkini is banned, the result won't be for observant Muslim women to go swimming in a less covering western-style women's swimsuit. The result will be for such women to not go swimming at all, but to stay fully covered and on dry land. Is that a victory? I think not. It results in restricting observant Muslim women's activities. That's not a win. Instead, burkinis should be welcomed and recognized as the freedom-giving garments that they are for observant Muslim women.
Not in favor of the burkini? Then don't wear one. But don't stop others from wearing one if they choose to do so.
Not in favor of the burkini? Then don't wear one. But don't stop others from wearing one if they choose to do so.
246
I love the argument that the burkini demonstrates the "the enslavement of women", but Bridgette Bardot is a symbol of emancipation! More skin, more freedom according to the men that can't resist temptation.
2
Sorry burkini is not a clothe of observant Muslim women, but clothe of the women who observe a particular Islam. Important to remind, there is no Islam, there are Islams, the first schism is arrived with the death of the prophet. Please don't explain what it is a observant Muslim women without referring to the branch of Islams you speak
2
So, Margaret, what would your reaction be in a Muslim-majority town in France declared that women attending one of their beaches must wear a "burkini"? Would you celebrate the opportunity to be part of their culture?
3
The burkini is genius in the realm of skin protection. Every beachgoer should wear it, M & F. The lifeguards would be exempted because they need to swim very fast. But otherwise the comfortable colorful full-body cover-up should be the norm.
16
When I see conservative, Muslim women dressed in head to toe black burkas in the broiling sun of Coney Island while their husbands and sons wear shorts, tee shirts and flip flops.....it just begs the question why?? Why make women suffer in the heat, why make them wear black? The suffering color is all about maintaining a non-identity and remaining a shadow woman because of some abstract reverence to God and of course, the rulers of society...men.
15
Rossignol is absolutely right in saying “That meaning is to hide, to conceal the women’s bodies and the position it accords to women is a position that I fight against.” The end to Islamic fundamentalism will come when their sexual frustration will end, which can only happen via the sexual and economic emancipation of the women in Muslim countries/communities. Men and women are designed by nature to tempt each other: this is why we are still around.
75
The women in burkinis look pretty happy. Why take that from them. Maybe this is step one in their increased freedom. It certainly isn't freedom for someone to say they CAN'T wear a burkini.
13
There is no problem with the birth rate of Muslims which is one of the highest in the world, so I do not think there is a problem with "temptation".
Sexual and economic evolution will occur incrementally and to keep women off the beaches by legislating their amount of clothing does not help the evolution.
I agree with Michelle, that would be interfering with their joy. And their assimilation into the culture.
Sexual and economic evolution will occur incrementally and to keep women off the beaches by legislating their amount of clothing does not help the evolution.
I agree with Michelle, that would be interfering with their joy. And their assimilation into the culture.
1
Many religious text require women to dress modestly. Orthodox Judaism requires married women to cover their hair because it is viewed as an expression of sexual attractiveness.
Should France (and the U.S.) ban Jewish women whose religious teachings require modest dress?
Let's be clear: this has nothing to do with French feminism. It has everything to do with hatred of Muslims.
Should France (and the U.S.) ban Jewish women whose religious teachings require modest dress?
Let's be clear: this has nothing to do with French feminism. It has everything to do with hatred of Muslims.
2
Looks like the French would benefit from a First Amendment.....especially the "free exercise " of religion part.
This nonsense couldn't happen here.
This nonsense couldn't happen here.
15
Indeed, that is why we are The United States of America.
It's unbelievable that a government is dictating what to wear and what not.
It's unbelievable that a government is dictating what to wear and what not.
2
Try walking down the street, or bathing totally nude in public in any American small town, or city and see how government reacts. At minimum, certain parts of the human body must be covered when on is out in public. On the other hand, if you are in your own home, or on private property outside of public view, you can wear as little, or nothing at all, as you choose.
1
One can be certain that a non-Muslim immigrant woman from western Europe or the Americas would not be allowed to publicly wear her shorts, halter top or bikini in Saudi Arabia. How are the apparel bans in France any different?
137
The difference is that France is supposed to be a tolerant society and not imitate Saudi Arabia by imposing dress codes. I can understand a law that prohibits male relatives from imposing a dress code on women, but not a law that forces them to dress in ways that makes them uncomfortable when swimming in a public area.
A burkini ban is just a way of expressing a dislike of Muslims and has no place in a country that tolerates all religions.
A burkini ban is just a way of expressing a dislike of Muslims and has no place in a country that tolerates all religions.
18
Great, so France is acting just like Saudi Arabia.
The answer is American, personal FREEDOM.
No big government should ever tell you what to wear
The answer is American, personal FREEDOM.
No big government should ever tell you what to wear
1
France is not Saudi Arabia. And mandating covering up and mandating wearing less are not quite equivalent. The principle that France should be applying is the freedom to choose. Yes, within certain parameters -- e.g. some places may ban total nudity or permit going back topless but not bottomless. But I f someone wants to wear a burkini, or another skin-covering swim garment, that should be their choice. Let them choose it.
3
Overweight or older women might not want to wear a bikini either, so although I don't agree with the mandatory burqa or face coverings, neither do I believe a woman should be forced to expose her body if she feels uncomfortable but would still like to swim.
46
Totally false comparison. So there are only bikinis and burkinis available to women? Have you ever been to a beach?
1
No one is forcing anyone to uncover. It is really about forcing women to cover up that is at issue.
2
Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia gets to have all sorts of laws that harshly punish gays, women, and non-believers without any backlash.
There's not an endless stream of articles denouncing Saudi Arabia or the millions of Muslims who embrace the mistreatment of gays, women, and non-believers.
Like Saudi Arabia, France and the French get to make their own rules. People who don't like their rules don't have to go there or live there.
There's not an endless stream of articles denouncing Saudi Arabia or the millions of Muslims who embrace the mistreatment of gays, women, and non-believers.
Like Saudi Arabia, France and the French get to make their own rules. People who don't like their rules don't have to go there or live there.
175
Well, then, let me say that Saudi Arabia's discriminatory and limited laws are terrible, and I condemn them. And the people who live there generally don't have much of a choice whether to live there or not. Heck, I don't even know if Canada would let me in if I asked.
Now, I see France's limiting of women's choice for beachwear (that is harming no one) as a betrayal of individual freedom, which France in theory supports. Maybe the burkinis will evolve into other forms... at the women's choosing.
Now, I see France's limiting of women's choice for beachwear (that is harming no one) as a betrayal of individual freedom, which France in theory supports. Maybe the burkinis will evolve into other forms... at the women's choosing.
4
Interesting that you would hold up a non democratic oppressive theocracy as an example to justify France's undemocratic actions. Is that the goal to aspire to, Saudi Arabia?
To try to actively exclude women who are taking part in. such a quintessential social activity as swimming at the beach or the pool will only work to marginalize the community further. Why punish the Muslim women in the West to make what is essentially a point about radicals?
To try to actively exclude women who are taking part in. such a quintessential social activity as swimming at the beach or the pool will only work to marginalize the community further. Why punish the Muslim women in the West to make what is essentially a point about radicals?
5
Not everyone gets to choose where they live or travel. Not everyone possesses the wealth of means or freedom to choose where they go. France has history of colonization with serious implications for modern day people from those regions. Your statements seem to be lacking any indication of awareness of the refugee crisis. To where would you go if your life were turned upside down? Would you abandon your identity if your principles and values didn't align with the law, even if the law is silly? In addition, justifying France's laws by referencing those of Saudi Arabia is flimsy logic. It makes no sense. Either way, people's freedoms are being unjustly limited by their governments.
1
If the French think that making women cover up in public is so terrible, why not ban bikinis and demand that women wear no clothes on the beach?
21
Women with little or no clothing on French beaches are not unusual, but that's by choice. Banning burkinis is obviously ant-Muslim discrimination but no one should fool themselves that it couldn't happen here (at least until it got to the Supreme Court).
2
Sometimes the French mistake égalité for conformity. From the other side, if Muslim women want to participate more fully in the daily life of France, they cannot expect to be able to do so as fully if they keep setting themselves apart in very obvious ways. Maybe, that is for them to decide rather than the government. However, there is a governmental interest in having a vibrant society in which all participate fully and equally.
51
thank you for your good sense---it is a perfectly legitimate role for government to promote a coherent society and encourage participation in the expression of common values and customs. Isn't that what a 4th of July Parade is all about?
But Muslims are different, and one way they persist in expressing that difference is via women's clothing, which expresses a singe sentiment= NO!
Co-existence is a 2-way street.
But Muslims are different, and one way they persist in expressing that difference is via women's clothing, which expresses a singe sentiment= NO!
Co-existence is a 2-way street.
1
First of all I will not feel safe at the age of terrorism. A suicide bomber could go to a beach which is "a soft target" and cause mayhem and death. This is like I go to the beach fully dressed without shoes.
Sorry, if they don't like the local law, they have a choice...
Sorry, if they don't like the local law, they have a choice...
4
Your stupid rule will create the more terrorism -- when the people are marginalized and told how to the behave and told one is better than another and kept separate, that is the garden of resentment and anger. Why is it do you think there is great terrorism in France? Because the Arab has been kept in the ghetto for past fifty years separate from the other French -- the Arab is not integrated into the school or the community. You want someone to hate you, your rule is great way to start.
"A suicide bomber could go to a beach ..."
How would you secure the beach in Cannes shown in this Times article? Note that there are no beach-access controls, unless you count the low wall.
Cannes, Citing Security Risks, Bans Full-Body ‘Burkinis’ From Its Beaches
By AURELIEN BREEDEN and LILIA BLAISE
AUG. 12, 2016
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/13/world/europe/cannes-muslims-burkini-ba...
(See the first photo.)
How would you secure the beach in Cannes shown in this Times article? Note that there are no beach-access controls, unless you count the low wall.
Cannes, Citing Security Risks, Bans Full-Body ‘Burkinis’ From Its Beaches
By AURELIEN BREEDEN and LILIA BLAISE
AUG. 12, 2016
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/13/world/europe/cannes-muslims-burkini-ba...
(See the first photo.)
It's hard to believe that banning these women from the beach is going to aid in their emancipation. And I hope that in the spirit of "laïcité" the ban is extended to Catholic nuns. Otherwise this move would revealed to be simple anti-Muslim prejudice.
30
You are still missing the point. It is about rejecting the misogyny against women. Few will argue that Catholic nuns are subject to misogynistic treatment.
3
If France wants to be completely secular, its time for them to cancel the following national holidays that have everything to do with religion:
Easter Monday
Ascension Day
Whit Monday
Assumption of Mary
All Saints Day
I understand their concern over Islam given the terrorist incidents, but this is going too far. And its obviously unfair.
Easter Monday
Ascension Day
Whit Monday
Assumption of Mary
All Saints Day
I understand their concern over Islam given the terrorist incidents, but this is going too far. And its obviously unfair.
35
None of those holidays celebrate misogyny. This is about rejection of misogyny, period.
3
Hah! They'll probably adopt Muslim holidays and still ban the burkini.
I can't comment on French sensibilities but if similar circumstances would present themselves here in the US, I would say, leave these people alone! When people mind their own business and do not compromise their own safety or the safety of others they ought to be left alone to enjoy themselves as they see fit. What possible difference could that make to anyone else?
22
I cannot understand this. While I think the custom of Islamic women wearing burkas is ridiculous, considering that the Islamic men can wear anything, I think banning burkinis is also ridiculous. What does it matter what people wear when swimming or wading? Wearing too much clothing while swimming can be a safety issue (heavy wet clothing can increase the chance of drowning). However, safety is not behind these bans. The bans are based on bigotry and not safety. I just hate institutionalized bigotry wherever it occurs.
65
Liberté, egalité, fraternité, pluralité.
8
What kind of government tells a person what they can or can't wear?
It is ok to go topless or completely nude, but not to be covered?
Fashion fascists?
Please don't give the Trump people more ideas.
It is ok to go topless or completely nude, but not to be covered?
Fashion fascists?
Please don't give the Trump people more ideas.
49
Topless are allowed only on certain beaches - may be burkas should be also.
Topless and and burka should go together - good idea!
Topless and and burka should go together - good idea!
If a burqa wasn't bottom-less, how could it be put on?
I would think that French society would embrace the fact that these Muslim women want to be able to enjoy the beach as well as follow what they believe are the teachings of their religion. What people wear at the beach ranges the gamut from nude to fully garbed. I am very fair skinned and I have to cover up with a large hat, rash guard and sometimes light pants if an umbrella isn't available. Would that subject me to scrutiny? The backers claim not because they see it as a matter of preventing religious expression in public. But would they have the gaul to go after women of other religions to whom modesty is essential?
25
The gaul? The French?
1
Burka, Burkini, head-scarf....are all items of oppression that should not be tolerated in a western society.
83
Your message strikes of oppression. What if one chooses to wear a hat or a t-shirt or a cover-up or a towel or shoes. Is not parading around half naked wearing the swimsuit of Nike or Speed or Quiksilver the more oppressive thing? You want to be left alone and in being left alone you want to force yourself upon the other.
3
Liberty means that you can clothe yourself without interference from government, unless your attire threatens public safety.
by al means criticize all of them, but don't drive those who wear them out of the public space. There is too much pressure on many immigrant Muslim women to stay home already. Get them out and about and participating in an open society. That is a better form of liberation than a ban.
1
If a nun in a traditional habit went to picnic at a French beach, would she be told to leave, or arrested and fined?
101
Virgin Mary herself would be asked to leave by French law!
1
A nun is a member of a religious order and falls into a somewhat different category from a member of the general public.
Your comment does raise a question, however.
Are there any religious orders for Muslim women?
If not, why not?
Your comment does raise a question, however.
Are there any religious orders for Muslim women?
If not, why not?
3
If the nuns gained political power you would not be allowed to wear anything less than a full bathing suit. Ask citizens or read what it is like living in France in their cherished open lifestyle in the areas of Muslim preponderance.
This is "Milliband's" wife writing. There are many reasons a woman might want to wear more modest clothing on a beach than the local official from city hall might prefer. Older women might feel more dignified more covered up. A heavier woman might feel that way also. Religious women of many faiths prefer more modest clothing. For myself, I wear more modest clothing on the beach to help avert a recurrence of skin cancer. I swim at a beach where there is a wide range of of attire. It is fine. These nosey officials should get over it.
219
It tells you more about the stupidity of the French. May be they need to start another revolution, so they can enjoy the First Amendment
1
Most women on the French Rivera beaches, young and old alike, go sans bikini tops. It would be heartening to see Muslim women in religious swim garb throw off the binds that tie them to their more-than-modest dress and release Wotan on their sanctimonious holier-than-thou husbands. Topless for all!
3
why does you give feeling about about older women and covered body ? Because a old woman body is faded ? Because of the social pressure about the women body ? It is very sad. Why can a old women feel the wind's caress under her skin, her hair ?
And the strange expression of modest clothing Just your value judgement, mine would be that the wet clothes on a woman provide a strong sexual felling. Please, forget the notion of modest clothing
And the strange expression of modest clothing Just your value judgement, mine would be that the wet clothes on a woman provide a strong sexual felling. Please, forget the notion of modest clothing
2
Banning the 'burkini', over time, will be remembered as a sad time in France's history. A time when fear ruled over righteousness, when the government ruled over personal freedom. And what is next? Will one be thrown in jail for reading the Koran, or woman stopped on the street for wearing a scarf? France, once a great nation of tolerance, is creating a culture hatred, fear and intimidation--and the end won't be pretty.
115
In time France will look back and be glad they stemmed the slow decline of cherished open lifestyles. Sex, the human body, women's equality, open expression of art, even cartoons will prevail. Western Democracy not Middle Eastern taboos.
4
Where does personal freedom end? What are its limits?
I submit they are not absolute and are governed by the aggregate society.
I submit they are not absolute and are governed by the aggregate society.
At least, France seems to be safer than new york for Imam.