Donald's draft number was almost last, 356. So much self-righteous hooey from this comment. You didn't go. You didn't want to go. Many young men felt the same way. Now in your dotage your making excuses for your failings. John McCain who is a real American war hero was also shown the door by the NYTimes.
16
I know several men who dodged the draft. None are a flippant about it as Trump. His total disrespect of servicemen and women further shows us that he is not fit to lead them.
Rep. Senator Joseph McCarthy led a witch hunt looking for Communists in our country. His end came at one hearing when Boston lawyer Joseph Welch responded to questioning of a man with these immortal lines, "Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness Let us not assassinate this lad further. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?"
Mr Trump has a dark soul. After this week we should ask ourselves if he is fit to lead the military and the U.S.? We should ask Mr Trump, "HAVE YOU NO SENSE OF DECENCY?" He should be an embarrassment to all of us.
Rep. Senator Joseph McCarthy led a witch hunt looking for Communists in our country. His end came at one hearing when Boston lawyer Joseph Welch responded to questioning of a man with these immortal lines, "Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness Let us not assassinate this lad further. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?"
Mr Trump has a dark soul. After this week we should ask ourselves if he is fit to lead the military and the U.S.? We should ask Mr Trump, "HAVE YOU NO SENSE OF DECENCY?" He should be an embarrassment to all of us.
47
So, if I understand Gup correctly, it is because of the remorse he now feels at having gamed the selective service system that he believes he has a right to stand in judgment of the unfeeling Donald Trump for having done the same. It's a pathetic rationalization that should never have found an audience in the NYT's opinion pages.
I was at the mercy of a Southern draft board that took pleasure in sending its young men to fight and die in Vietnam, and few of us escaped the board's clutches. With a graduate degree, I was called to active duty in 1968, a year before the lottery system was implemented. A year later, my #361 would have freed me from having to serve in the misguided Vietnam War. I knew peers who weren't so fortunate as me and came home in coffins. I also knew people whose parents, like Trump's, had sufficient political/financial clout to avoid service.
I returned to civilian life and have enjoyed a successful career. That said, I have no sympathy for Mr. Gup's public agonizing. In this respect, he is no better than Trump, a man with no redeeming values.
I was at the mercy of a Southern draft board that took pleasure in sending its young men to fight and die in Vietnam, and few of us escaped the board's clutches. With a graduate degree, I was called to active duty in 1968, a year before the lottery system was implemented. A year later, my #361 would have freed me from having to serve in the misguided Vietnam War. I knew peers who weren't so fortunate as me and came home in coffins. I also knew people whose parents, like Trump's, had sufficient political/financial clout to avoid service.
I returned to civilian life and have enjoyed a successful career. That said, I have no sympathy for Mr. Gup's public agonizing. In this respect, he is no better than Trump, a man with no redeeming values.
52
I’ve been crying for days. I even went to my late husband’s headstone at the National Cemetery of the Pacific.
Vietnam War
DOB August 12, 1951 DOD July 24, 1974 23 y/o
I knelt and sobbed over his grave. “Greg, why did you go? You were a West Point Grad and your classmate Petraeus didn’t go to Vietnam! Why was it so necessary?”
Why? His dad, grandfather from Sweden all felt it was part of American citizenship.
My dad, a corporal in WWII in the Philippines NEVER talked about his 4 years in WWII. But he was SO proud when I went over in the medical corps--44th Brigade--where I met my butter bar spouse.
My three brothers ALL for the war! But then the brother who preached the loudest FOR the war, graduated in 1969 with a degree in chemical engineering and got his deferment. We “needed” people to make gasoline in Houston.
Most of my friends including my high school classmates (I moved away after high school) aren’t aware I’m a vet.
You walked into our home there was nothing to show our time in the military. I hid our medals and ribbons away...never displayed them on vanity walls.
When I saw Trump accept that Purple Heart--I ran to the bath and threw up.
UNLESS you were in war, no one has a clue what it’s like. My husband was embarrassed to have gone after he saw what a cluster it was. But we went. We went.
And now I have a headstone to talk to.
Vietnam War
DOB August 12, 1951 DOD July 24, 1974 23 y/o
I knelt and sobbed over his grave. “Greg, why did you go? You were a West Point Grad and your classmate Petraeus didn’t go to Vietnam! Why was it so necessary?”
Why? His dad, grandfather from Sweden all felt it was part of American citizenship.
My dad, a corporal in WWII in the Philippines NEVER talked about his 4 years in WWII. But he was SO proud when I went over in the medical corps--44th Brigade--where I met my butter bar spouse.
My three brothers ALL for the war! But then the brother who preached the loudest FOR the war, graduated in 1969 with a degree in chemical engineering and got his deferment. We “needed” people to make gasoline in Houston.
Most of my friends including my high school classmates (I moved away after high school) aren’t aware I’m a vet.
You walked into our home there was nothing to show our time in the military. I hid our medals and ribbons away...never displayed them on vanity walls.
When I saw Trump accept that Purple Heart--I ran to the bath and threw up.
UNLESS you were in war, no one has a clue what it’s like. My husband was embarrassed to have gone after he saw what a cluster it was. But we went. We went.
And now I have a headstone to talk to.
114
I was also 18 in December 1969, making us both freshmen. If memory serves me, I, as you, had 3 ½ more years of student deferrals, by which time the US was out of the war and the draft had ended. Your remorse at having thus avoided the draft is less than convincing. More importantly, many of us who tried to avoid the draft did so out of an opposition to the war based on strong political and moral beliefs - that the US presence in Viet Nam was indefensible, an extension of American political and economic interests.
Mr. Gup may feel guilt for not having sacrificed his life but he can’t seriously believe that the 19 year old draftees who found themselves forced to fight in Viet Nam were willingly "serving their country". They were mostly victims of an unfair system that used the cover of patriotism and the excuse of "saving Viet Nam from the Communists" to further its own purposes. There is no special honor in not having had the opportunity to avoid the draft that the wealthy and well-connected took advantage of (George W. Bush immediately comes to mind). I too have respect for those who suffered and, in the worst of cases still suffer, the effects of their experiences there. But do not pretend that "for many of us who avoided the draft, the ensuing years brought with them … a measure of guilt." This statement would only apply to those dishonest few who, as you, took advantage of the system to place the burden on those less economically advantaged than yourself.
Mr. Gup may feel guilt for not having sacrificed his life but he can’t seriously believe that the 19 year old draftees who found themselves forced to fight in Viet Nam were willingly "serving their country". They were mostly victims of an unfair system that used the cover of patriotism and the excuse of "saving Viet Nam from the Communists" to further its own purposes. There is no special honor in not having had the opportunity to avoid the draft that the wealthy and well-connected took advantage of (George W. Bush immediately comes to mind). I too have respect for those who suffered and, in the worst of cases still suffer, the effects of their experiences there. But do not pretend that "for many of us who avoided the draft, the ensuing years brought with them … a measure of guilt." This statement would only apply to those dishonest few who, as you, took advantage of the system to place the burden on those less economically advantaged than yourself.
39
Like so many, I too was sickened by Trump's statement that he'd always wanted a Purple Heart. My only question is: Why isn't every single American sickened as well? And that he accepted it (I can't even begin to fathom why a veteran would give it to him) sickens me further.
What is wrong with us?
What is wrong with us?
69
So, the writer has guilt feelings about his deferment, and faults Mr. Trump for "evidently" not having the same, and/or not acting to make up for them? The 'Times' has left few stones uncovered in its efforts to damage the Republican candidate, but this is certainly one of the most nonsensical! People either forget or have no memories of how disliked the Vietnam War and the U.S. military was, especially during the latter years of that era. Draft eligible men used whatever tool they could find to stay out of both, including two out of three of our most recent Presidents (Messrs. Clinton and G.W. Bush). Those men should get a giant pass for whatever their actions were during that time, and everyone else should move on.
14
Trump, it is time. You continue on this path, even the trump-eteers will boot you out. ( I hope with this deluge of crass, embarrassing, narcissistic, egotistic, ignorant, and all the other adjectives that best describes the Repugnant-Republican candidate.) You can cut your losses now or wait till November to see a most-public and global shaming of a face-plant. Please think of your grandchildren and most importantly our grandchildren.
16
I know it is not popular to say this, but Mr. Kahn purposely insulted Mr. Trump during his speech at the Democratic convention. He also falsely claimed Mr. Tump wanted to build a wall to keep Muslims out if the country. And all Trump asked in return was ask why his wife didn't say anything. Did Mr. Kahn expect to be able to insult Mr. Trump and have Mr. Trump stand there silently, as his wife did, and say nothing?
I'm no Trump fan, but when people accept invitations to speak at political rallies, and then proceed to trash the opposition candidate, they can't expect that candidate to just silently stand by and take it. In my view, Mr. Kahn elicited exactly the kind of response from Mr. Trump that he and his wife were put on that stage to do.
I'm no Trump fan, but when people accept invitations to speak at political rallies, and then proceed to trash the opposition candidate, they can't expect that candidate to just silently stand by and take it. In my view, Mr. Kahn elicited exactly the kind of response from Mr. Trump that he and his wife were put on that stage to do.
22
Yes, you can (and should) expect the candidate to silently stand by and take it. Other candidates are not so thin-skinned that they cannot take an insult or negative comment without the need to fight back. What makes it OK for Trump to insult anyone and everyone (typically based on incorrect facts or outright lies) but then get indignant when someone does the same to him? It is childish to behave as he has been, and comparing him like that is really an unintentional insult to children. Can you imagine the President of the United States acting like this?
And Trump has never answered the question that Khan asked -- whether Donald has ever read the constitution. Of course, most of us know the answer -- no.
And Trump has never answered the question that Khan asked -- whether Donald has ever read the constitution. Of course, most of us know the answer -- no.
30
I too drew that dreaded number one in the first draft lottery in 1969. My friends drew much higher numbers and laughed at my bad luck. I made up my mind not to evade the draft by dodgy means and to go into the Army when I graduated. Early in my senior year, I read a brief item in The New York Times which noted if draft-eligible men were notcalledin the next 90 days, they would never be called. I immediately gave up my student deferment and, with the Vietnam War winding down, was not drafted. After that, I went to graduate school and the rest of what has been a wonderful life. I look back with sadness on those times and the dumb luck that kept me out of that misguided war.
31
When at age 13 (1965) I determined that war to be illegal, immoral, unnecessary and unjustifiable, I made up my mind never to be a part of it, and thereafter read everything I could get my hands on about how to evade the draft. I could have had a student deferment but gave that up after 1 year. I then drew no. 4 in the draft lottery, but was, with considerable effort, able to persuade the Army people that drafting me wouldn't be in their best interests. How? That's my business. But I never felt (or will feel) any guilt about it, nor did I ever speak or think evil about those who went. I later met a number of combat vets and mostly I felt bad for them because it was clear they had suffered serious psychological damage. I've had plenty of chances since then to serve society in other ways, and have done so.
18
It is apparent that Trump holds a belief that all men and women who serve our country in the military are suckers for risking their lives and foregoing pursuit of wealth instead of playing the system to get out, or simply not enlisting.
Trump connived to avoid service and had the money from his father, and its influence, to fake a physical condition to get his 1Y after his 4 college deferments expired. The photo of him as part of the college rugby team evidences his ability to participate in vigorous, violent sporting activities at the time he claimed that 'bone spurs' would prevent him from active duty.
That's the scripted reality he created.
Trump connived to avoid service and had the money from his father, and its influence, to fake a physical condition to get his 1Y after his 4 college deferments expired. The photo of him as part of the college rugby team evidences his ability to participate in vigorous, violent sporting activities at the time he claimed that 'bone spurs' would prevent him from active duty.
That's the scripted reality he created.
26
Forget the politics of who went or didn't go to what war and why. NO DECENT HUMAN BEING belittles a torture victim or attacks grieving parents. The fact that that torture victim and that lost son, were serving this country makes it even more reprehensible. But the fact that he can do it at all makes him unworthy not only of the office he seeks, but of the company of normal human beings.
49
Mr. Gup writes with great passion and makes great points. Though I was 4-F because of spinal defects and surgeries as a child, I feel the same sense of unease at having, literally, dodged this bullet.
Going forward, of course, should there ever be need for another draft, it should be both our young men and also our young women who are faced with these choices and obligations. Both genders should be required to register for the draft. We all hope, of course, that the need for a draft never materializes, but if it does, how can we ask only one gender to face that burden and risk? Every servicewoman I know feels the same way.
Going forward, of course, should there ever be need for another draft, it should be both our young men and also our young women who are faced with these choices and obligations. Both genders should be required to register for the draft. We all hope, of course, that the need for a draft never materializes, but if it does, how can we ask only one gender to face that burden and risk? Every servicewoman I know feels the same way.
10
I have respect for Americans who serve their country in the military, but why decent, brave young Americans will oftentimes be encouraged to go off to kill and die in unnecessary wars cooked up by mostly draft-avoiding war profiteers and religious hypocrites blind to any concept of just war morality, is beyond me. (Vietnam & Iraq were the prime examples in my life).
Let's remember that "supporting our troops" should include not only giving them emotional & financial support in a just war but also doing everything possible to save their lives by speaking up against callous, macho chickenhawk politicians who exploit their noble intentions by starting self-serving unnecessary wars.
Let's remember that "supporting our troops" should include not only giving them emotional & financial support in a just war but also doing everything possible to save their lives by speaking up against callous, macho chickenhawk politicians who exploit their noble intentions by starting self-serving unnecessary wars.
36
I also did not serve, and it's not something I am proud of. My days of anxious anticipation were before the lottery. I was in college and was given a routine exemption at first, then those ended and I got called to take the physical. I tried to enlist in Marines but my eyesight disqualified me. Then suddenly I was notified my draft board had disqualified me "for allergies". I had nothing to do with it, but draft boards were horribly unfair. I did not deserve an exemption, and my friends who went did not deserve to die either.
War is hell. I wish there were a constitutional rule that said if we have to send kids overseas to fight, then Congress has to raise taxes to support it, and has to budget how many lives they're willing to give up. Then select people at random, except that relatives of Congressmen are required to serve.
War is hell. I wish there were a constitutional rule that said if we have to send kids overseas to fight, then Congress has to raise taxes to support it, and has to budget how many lives they're willing to give up. Then select people at random, except that relatives of Congressmen are required to serve.
67
"For many of us who avoided the draft, the ensuing years brought with them not merely a measure of guilt, but also a deeper appreciation for the sacrifices of those who did serve."
I disagree. Let's remember the most basic thing about our wars in Indochina. They were wars that did not need to be fought, and brought misery and suffering to millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians as well as to tens of thousands of Americans. The real blame should not go to those who "dodged" the draft, but the politicians who got us into the Indochina quagmire in the first place.
Like Mr. Gup, I was a Vietnam non-server. But I feel neither pride in not having participated in a useless war nor shame for not serving. I don't regret not being in uniform during the 1960s and 1970s; what I regret is that Washington got us into a thoroughly destructive and self-destructive conflict, which destabilized Southeast Asia for a long time afterwards.
I disagree. Let's remember the most basic thing about our wars in Indochina. They were wars that did not need to be fought, and brought misery and suffering to millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians as well as to tens of thousands of Americans. The real blame should not go to those who "dodged" the draft, but the politicians who got us into the Indochina quagmire in the first place.
Like Mr. Gup, I was a Vietnam non-server. But I feel neither pride in not having participated in a useless war nor shame for not serving. I don't regret not being in uniform during the 1960s and 1970s; what I regret is that Washington got us into a thoroughly destructive and self-destructive conflict, which destabilized Southeast Asia for a long time afterwards.
25
Thank you for your piece. I did serve but whether or not you did does not diminish my appreciation for your candor and the sentiments expressed. It was a long time ago and a very chaotic time for all. Thank you.
23
Let's see, the following is a list of wealthy politicians who have, of late, been interested in running for or held the office of president or Vice President but who did not serve in the armed forces or did serve in state-side reserve units where their service looks like it was intended to avoid the draft and whose kids didn't serve either.
Jeb Bush, Ted Cruze, Rubio, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Trump, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Jill Stein, Fiorina, John Kasich, Mitt Romney, Dickhead Cheney, Ben Carson, Chris Christi, Jim Gilmore, Linsay Graham, Bernie Sanders, Huckabee, Jindall, Pataki, Rick Perry, Santorum, Walker and GW Bush (no doing cocaine in the state-side Air National Guard doesn't count).
Those who did serve and did so in combat, John Kerry, McCain, Jim Web and honorable mention to Joe Biden whose son served.
So, why is Trump being singled out for criticism?
DWW
Those who
Jeb Bush, Ted Cruze, Rubio, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Trump, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Jill Stein, Fiorina, John Kasich, Mitt Romney, Dickhead Cheney, Ben Carson, Chris Christi, Jim Gilmore, Linsay Graham, Bernie Sanders, Huckabee, Jindall, Pataki, Rick Perry, Santorum, Walker and GW Bush (no doing cocaine in the state-side Air National Guard doesn't count).
Those who did serve and did so in combat, John Kerry, McCain, Jim Web and honorable mention to Joe Biden whose son served.
So, why is Trump being singled out for criticism?
DWW
Those who
9
Umm. Because he is running for the highest office in the land.
15
Thank you for highlighting another example of Donald's inability to appreciate anything outside of himself. We cannot have a president who completely lacks empathy like Donald. (Side note: John McCain if you read this article, now is the time to stand with your fellow POW's and those who served and denounce this man!)
19
A veteran gives Trump his Purple Heart and what does Trump say? He makes it about him: "I always wanted a Purple Heart..." I am sorry sir, that Purple Heart is not yours. You may possess the medal, but the Purple Heart always remains with the veteran who was injured in battle. Sadly, Trump does not understand this.
32
"I didn't serve, I haven't served," the 2016 GOP front-runner said at a New Hampshire rally. "I always felt a little guilty."
"I had friends that served, and they're very proud and some are no longer with us because of the fact that they served," said the candidate, who earlier this year launched an outrageous assault on the war record of former prisoner of war Sen. John McCain.
Trump was able to use his college years — he studied at Fordham University and the University of Pennsylvania — to obtain four separate deferments so he could avoid serving in the Vietnam War.
But after his graduation, in 1968, he was able to sidestep the draft again with a medical disqualification for bone spurs in his foot.
Trump, who has faced lingering questions over the nature of his deferments, said he's tried to make up for his lack of military service by throwing money at veterans causes and memorials.
"I've done a lot of things. I've built the Vietnam Memorial in New York," the outspoken mogul said during the rally. "In a way it's a way of making up."
I've built a lot of things and people forget, but the Vietnam Memorial to this day, if I'm walking down the street, the military so often they come up to me and they say, Mr. Trump, thank you for building the Vietnam Memorial," he added. "They still thank me for it. The military, they have unbelievable heart."
"I had friends that served, and they're very proud and some are no longer with us because of the fact that they served," said the candidate, who earlier this year launched an outrageous assault on the war record of former prisoner of war Sen. John McCain.
Trump was able to use his college years — he studied at Fordham University and the University of Pennsylvania — to obtain four separate deferments so he could avoid serving in the Vietnam War.
But after his graduation, in 1968, he was able to sidestep the draft again with a medical disqualification for bone spurs in his foot.
Trump, who has faced lingering questions over the nature of his deferments, said he's tried to make up for his lack of military service by throwing money at veterans causes and memorials.
"I've done a lot of things. I've built the Vietnam Memorial in New York," the outspoken mogul said during the rally. "In a way it's a way of making up."
I've built a lot of things and people forget, but the Vietnam Memorial to this day, if I'm walking down the street, the military so often they come up to me and they say, Mr. Trump, thank you for building the Vietnam Memorial," he added. "They still thank me for it. The military, they have unbelievable heart."
5
The issue of Donald Trump is his dislocation with reality. Setting aside whether he was a draft dodger or not, his equating his battle with STD's with service in the military is what is at issue. His battle is about himself & no sacrifice for country,so Mr. Khan has proven his point clearly. Mr. Trumps claim of creating jobs also creates a narrative of lining his pockets while denying any commitment to paying his contractors. Why is Donald running for President? So he can uplift the value of the Trump brand. So he can build Trump Towers in Moscow. His accepting the Purple Heart from a veteran yesterday was so telling. "I didn't know it would be so easy...". Except it wasn't ,he was handed a, piece of metal & ribbon. It was only a Purple Heart in the hands of the veteran who achieved it. Much like the Presidency,it only is as great as the person who holds the office. So Mr. Trump, we hope that you will return to your gilt chair in Florida,not the Oval Office. Trump has no courage,just a father who gave him a million dollars and no ethics. Trumps treason is he has no values, as morally bankrupt as his business ventures. Give a child a million dollars and see what it gets you. A fiscally & morally bankrupt man child.
22
Love the illustration.
7
Also deferred, Ted Gup speaks for me.
3
Coming from a military family ( father USMA 1933, 2 sons currently serving) I have long believed in universal service no exclusions for both men and women. The military is not for everyone and there are some who should be allowed in for many reasons but everyone can and should serve 2 years. The Conservation Corp, working at hospitals etc. there are so many. It might even give some of the young a chance to mature. It would also be healthy for everyone to mix with people outside of their social stratus.
21
The issue of Trump's fitness for the presidency based on his military service is a non sequitur. It has been rendered irrelevant by the collective machinations by politicians of both parties, led by Bill Clinton and George W Bush; by all the individual stories of how the draft was avoided; and by an all volunteer service where 90% of Americans have not or will not ever serve, but equate patriotism with sending someone else's loved one off to war. Maybe if more young men had refused to participate by any means and earlier during the Vietnam era, the war would have ended earlier and with less loss of life. For the record, I am a career Marine and Vietnam veteran.
9
The outrage against Donald Trump for his attacks on the Gold Star Khan family seems as near to universal as may be---as it ought to be. Revulsion at his acceptance of a veteran's Purple Heart with the complacent comment, "I always wanted to get the Purple Heart," seems less so, except among veterans' groups. As far as I'm concerned, he had his chance in the Sixties. He was under no compulsion to apply for student deferment after student deferment in his itinerant college years. I myself came, reluctantly but inexorably, to believe such deferments were wrong in wartime, and renounced mine. As a result, I was (not surprisingly) drafted out of college, and served as a conscientious-objector medic with the 1st Infantry Division in Vietnam. At one point I was injured, not seriously and, most importantly, not in combat. It was suggested I could get a Purple Heart, but I felt those were for the wounded. I don't think they're for such as Donald Trump, however much he's "always wanted" one. Now he wants to be our Commander in Chief. It's time he be denied another thing he wants, but hasn't earned.
91
Well put. Thank you to all our service men and women and their loved ones. Thank you to all who wear Purple Hearts. Thank you to those who received
their medals posthumously. Trump is a national disgrace.
their medals posthumously. Trump is a national disgrace.
17
Cowardice is like a bullet. Once you pull the trigger you can't get it back or pretend it wasn't fired. The author and many others were selfish, uncaring, self-interested then and remain so now. Words, whining and hand wringing or using your guilt for politics don't change it either.
An honest article would name many prominent Democrats who dodged the draft and military service. Two obvious ones are Joe Biden and Bill Clinton. Until the American left faces up to its betrayal they are in no position to cast stones at anyone else.
An honest article would name many prominent Democrats who dodged the draft and military service. Two obvious ones are Joe Biden and Bill Clinton. Until the American left faces up to its betrayal they are in no position to cast stones at anyone else.
1
The doctors who got you and the Donald out of the draft were guilty of malpractice: delusions and "heel spurs" indeed! No wonder more poor folk died in the Korean and Vietnam Wars.
(written as a doctor and a veteran of the USAMC)
(written as a doctor and a veteran of the USAMC)
12
This piece could have just as easily been entitled: "Why Trump is Not Like Other Human Beings".
9
There is no need to feel guilty. I was very little but I remember how this issue tore apart families and created massive rifts between fathers and sons. My generation BENEFITED from men like you who did not serve--being in college and grad school offered deferments---so did going into careers like teaching. Because men choose careers as teachers, I had male literature teachers, male history teachers, male geography teachers, and male music teachers. That generation of teachers is quickly retiring. Think how many young boys NEVER see men in their quotidian lives, let alone men who choose to teach about books and music and singing. Think how many girls never see a man who chooses to nurture young minds as a career choice. I see who teaches in public schools these days--dedicated, wonderful, bright young people, mostly female. These men were the gifts of an unpopular war. You did the country a great service.
11
Donald Trump is more honorable than the other draft dodger, Bill Clinton.
4
He is? In what way are you measuring honor? Because it doesn't seem to be in a way that I'm familiar with. You know, in the normal way that a person would be called honorable.
17
Hardly. Like most of my generation, WJC protested the war and did his best to stay out of it.
Trump, like most Republicans/conservatives, are chickenhawks: tough talk, but let somebody else do the fighting. I have come to believe that many (especially well-off) cons in fact see it as a badge of honor among themselves to be able to say that they avoided military service. Fighting wars and paying taxes are for the little people.
Trump, like most Republicans/conservatives, are chickenhawks: tough talk, but let somebody else do the fighting. I have come to believe that many (especially well-off) cons in fact see it as a badge of honor among themselves to be able to say that they avoided military service. Fighting wars and paying taxes are for the little people.
4
How so? Please be specific.
Clinton was honest about his opposition to the war, and about his disinclination to fight in it. I wonder if Trump was as honest.
Clinton was honest about his opposition to the war, and about his disinclination to fight in it. I wonder if Trump was as honest.
12
What's the quote, "A brave man dies but once, a coward dies a thousand times"? Of course this assumes the person isn't Trump.
3
I don't understand how the United States has changed so much in such a short time. When I lived there from 1926 until 1949 [I was born in Philadelphia on June 9th, 1926], the United States was a wonderful country and tne Ameican people were wonderful people.
All my male classmates, except for three or four genuine Quaker conscientious objectrs, served in either the Army or Navy, after graduation from High School in 1943. Not one of them shirked his duty. Two of them were killed in France in battle in 1944 or 1945, former friends whom I considered heroes.
During the late 1930's and prior to Pearl Harbor, the country was divided between Interventiomists and Isolationists. As an Interventionist it was only logical that I looked forward to military service as soon as I turned 18. However, on account of the Army's rules consideriing disqualification on qccoynt of very poor eyesight [mine was 20-400] I was not called until I was 19, but when called I requested immediate induction. So be it...or so was it. To say the least, I was fortunate. The war was over!
However, TODAY - and for many decades of TODAYS - so many young men shirk their duties. I can think of nothing more horriblle than war...yet I can think of nothing more noble than patriotism. Shirking one's duty is not the way to go!
Yes, the United States has changed! Perhaps Capt. Khan will redeem the country! Capt. Khan was a noble person.
All my male classmates, except for three or four genuine Quaker conscientious objectrs, served in either the Army or Navy, after graduation from High School in 1943. Not one of them shirked his duty. Two of them were killed in France in battle in 1944 or 1945, former friends whom I considered heroes.
During the late 1930's and prior to Pearl Harbor, the country was divided between Interventiomists and Isolationists. As an Interventionist it was only logical that I looked forward to military service as soon as I turned 18. However, on account of the Army's rules consideriing disqualification on qccoynt of very poor eyesight [mine was 20-400] I was not called until I was 19, but when called I requested immediate induction. So be it...or so was it. To say the least, I was fortunate. The war was over!
However, TODAY - and for many decades of TODAYS - so many young men shirk their duties. I can think of nothing more horriblle than war...yet I can think of nothing more noble than patriotism. Shirking one's duty is not the way to go!
Yes, the United States has changed! Perhaps Capt. Khan will redeem the country! Capt. Khan was a noble person.
10
While Gup's admission is refreshing, his deferment fraud shows the lowest ethics and values imaginable. Does he realize someone had to go in his place? He should have been prosecuted, some might say.
7
You either did not read his essay or you lack the capacity to understand it, else you would not have asked such a question. He addresses that very issue.
7
In my town in PA, everyone knew that if your parents had money or influence, you could get out of it. For the rest of us you had to hope for a high number or decide to move out of the country and risk prosecution. It was a very disturbing time as no one supported the war. I got a high number of 295 in 1972 and managed to scrape enough money together to get away to Europe to study.
6
Judging by some of these postings, there is apparently no end to the vilification of people who were foolish enough to answer their nation's call in a pointless war fifty years ago.
Therefore, taking a cue from the shopworn "thank you for your service" I propose we institute yet another trite national tribute for people like Trump, Gup and others who took pride in sending others to serve while evading their own responsibility. Perhaps we should thank them all for their non-service by setting aside a day in their honor. Maybe even have retailers offer discount cards.
We truly do live in a Bazarro world.
Therefore, taking a cue from the shopworn "thank you for your service" I propose we institute yet another trite national tribute for people like Trump, Gup and others who took pride in sending others to serve while evading their own responsibility. Perhaps we should thank them all for their non-service by setting aside a day in their honor. Maybe even have retailers offer discount cards.
We truly do live in a Bazarro world.
3
Remind me again what Obamas military resume was?
You libers are lofos.
Trump went to a Military Academy.
Trump created more jobs than Obama has.
You libers are lofos.
Trump went to a Military Academy.
Trump created more jobs than Obama has.
4
DT's multi-millionaire father could afford to send him to a military academy, which benefited no one. You dare compare him to Obama? Obama does not disparage those who spent time as prisoners of war or gold star parents, and he has been a great part of the move toward better treatment for veterans. Trump bragged about a million dollar donation to a veteran's organization. Months later he wrote the check after the media discovered he had never done so. Since Obama's election there have been 91 million new jobs created under the private sector while DT abuses the system by importing low wage workers for his exclusive club in Florida. Oh, need I mention that this man who is so concerned about the American worker has the many products bearing his name manufactured in foreign countries.
18
Your poetry is astounding.
4
The "military academy" Trump attended was a high school in New York. It is not a "real" military academy, i.e., one that prepares its students to be military officers. John McCain went to a real military academy: Annapolis.
But the point is not that Trump was never in the military. The problem is with Mr. Trump's attacks against Capt Khan and his family. Nothing gives him the right to defame the character of an officer who was killed while on active duty or to defame the character of his parents.
That's what separates him from Obama. True that Obama, like Trump, has no military experience. Our last President who had such experience was George H. W. Bush.
But Mr. Trump set himself apart from all of the others by defaming an American service man who was killed protecting the men who served under him. His statements make it clear that Mr. Trump has no concept of what that means. Mr. Trump should be ashamed of himself.
But the point is not that Trump was never in the military. The problem is with Mr. Trump's attacks against Capt Khan and his family. Nothing gives him the right to defame the character of an officer who was killed while on active duty or to defame the character of his parents.
That's what separates him from Obama. True that Obama, like Trump, has no military experience. Our last President who had such experience was George H. W. Bush.
But Mr. Trump set himself apart from all of the others by defaming an American service man who was killed protecting the men who served under him. His statements make it clear that Mr. Trump has no concept of what that means. Mr. Trump should be ashamed of himself.
17
When Donald Trump insulted John McCain's military service because he was a POW, I wondered to myself if DT would've granted his fellow Republican more respect if he had been killed instead of captured. I now know, courtesy of his comments about the Khan family, what the answer to that question was. I feel the need for a very long, hot shower in the hopes I can rid myself of Mr. Trump's moral stench.
15
A great article on both the Vietnam era and Donald Trump. Both can be looked upon as times that America needs to reflect upon.
2
Back in the day when Bill Clinton was nominated, all you heard from the other side was "draft-dodger this" and "draft-dodger that". And now that they too have a draft-dodger of their own (and one who is very proud of it as well), we've hardly heard a peep about it.
19
The best way to defeat Trump is to stop talking about him and to start talking about specific ways that the Democratic Administration of Hillary Clinton and a Democratic Congress can make the country a better place for us all. Without a Democratic Congress, I am afraid, we will just go back to the do-nothing world of the party of NO, the Republican Party.
21
I read once that wars are started by our lawmakers to get the "trash" off the streets and control crime by unemployed young men, etc. I believe there is some truth in that!
5
Well said, Mr. Gup.
Perhaps you "contributed" by being a writer.
Perhaps you "contributed" by being a writer.
3
Ted Gup piously tells us he respects those who served and that long ago he managed to outlive his guilt. How nice for him. If he had chosen to do an alternative service to the country, I might cut him some slack, but no he went merrily on his way through his education--something many of those who served never got to do. Where does he get the temerity to judge others in his shoes--even Trump? He gave up that right when he weaseled out of service.
4
Liberals and democrats have not right to talk about service to their country when they supported presidents like Bill Clinton and Obama, neither of whom spent a minute in service to their country. Clinton fled to England to avoid the draft and Obama was too busy smoking pot to consider serving.
5
You do realize don't you that the draft ended when Obama was 14 years old? The all-volunteer military was in place when he came of age.
The last President who had honorable military service was George H.W. Bush. It's likely to be a while before the next.
The last President who had honorable military service was George H.W. Bush. It's likely to be a while before the next.
18
I 'avoided the draft' but not by choice. In fact I volunteered to go to Nam. I was ready. But given my 'criminal history' (at the age of 23) it was decided my felony conviction (manslaughter) rendered me "too dangerous" to kill for my country. Go figure that line of logic!
In Trumps case, military service would have set his budding golf game back years; his father could not let that happen. It was intolerable, so he made a phone call ... no problem.
Look, folks, you don't have to share a bed with Clinton for god's sake; just vote for her so we are not harnessed with someone so obviously unworthy of air. You can cry about for the nx four years but don't be so childish as to shoot yourself in the foot based on negative conditioning and irrational spite. Please: if nothing else, practice enlightened self-interest.
In Trumps case, military service would have set his budding golf game back years; his father could not let that happen. It was intolerable, so he made a phone call ... no problem.
Look, folks, you don't have to share a bed with Clinton for god's sake; just vote for her so we are not harnessed with someone so obviously unworthy of air. You can cry about for the nx four years but don't be so childish as to shoot yourself in the foot based on negative conditioning and irrational spite. Please: if nothing else, practice enlightened self-interest.
19
"Thank you for your service" should be changed to "Thank you for your sacrifice." From what we now know about concussions and PTSD, it's pretty clear that no one who goes to war, even the uninjured and behind the lines workers, escapes whole - they all give up something or suffer some future disability. Thank you for your sacrifice and "We thank you for your sacrifice" is one way to better honor those who served.
3
Good points. Vietnam was my generation's war as well. I was in college and watched college boys get deferments while my high school boyfriend got drafted with no education deferment. He never believed he was cut out for college and did not try and get out of it but went through in it , fearful at first, challenged by basic and finally coming home. I went to class with guys returning from Vietnam and knew these were not like other college boys. They had secrets, Some they would share, some they would just silent and say, you wouldn't understand. I probably wouldn't have. Some never adapted to college and would re enlist. One sticks in my mind because he made it through two tours then after a year of college re enlisted and died in a helicopter crash at a military air show. Trump, on the other disrespects vets by disrespecting the survivors.. the POW, the Gold Star Families, those who received the Purple Hearts ( I always wanted one of those) Really? How many of those Vietnam vets got up one morning and said.. today's the day boys! I'm going out there and get me a purple heart today!!! Trump is clueless.
8
I am a Vietnam vet and I have a certain disdain for the likes of Cheney, Clinton, Ted Nugent and now Trump but even more so for the discriminatory process of the draft. The Vietnam era draft was corrosive to the our national character. However, at present, to ask less than 1% of our young to bear the burden and violence of war without any sacrifice of the majority, absolutely none, not even a war tax, is simply immoral! While voting Republican in past years, I will not vote for Trump, not because of the draft issue, but because Trump is dangerous! As an aside, if I had as Cheney, etc. avoided service, I could not had looked my father and older brothers in the eye for they had all served in WWI, WWII, Korea and it was then my turn.
14
The draft system is indeed discriminatory. Only one gender is required to register!
2
I enlisted in the Navy before the draft so I have no idea where my draft number was or evening I had one. I did two fours in Viet Nam (not in a ship) and returned a changed man.
I was there with my father, a WW-II veteran who worked not far away, the day the Viet Nam Memorial opened. He, wisely, left me alone with my thoughts. Through my tears, I recall seeing all those names, panel after panel of names, of young men and women who were killed, some of them in the most horrific way, and wondering then, as I do to this day decades later, why?
I, too, have passed most of those feelings, but some remain. We all make decisions and some of them are unpleasant to others. Whether to "dodge" ones responsibility or not is one of them.
I now have an empathy for those who did that I did not have then. Since making war is a political decision, I look to politicians who have he same empathy, whether they served or not. It is not an easy thing to send people to their deaths in combat, nor should it be.
In fact, it should be the hardest decision a president makes.
I was there with my father, a WW-II veteran who worked not far away, the day the Viet Nam Memorial opened. He, wisely, left me alone with my thoughts. Through my tears, I recall seeing all those names, panel after panel of names, of young men and women who were killed, some of them in the most horrific way, and wondering then, as I do to this day decades later, why?
I, too, have passed most of those feelings, but some remain. We all make decisions and some of them are unpleasant to others. Whether to "dodge" ones responsibility or not is one of them.
I now have an empathy for those who did that I did not have then. Since making war is a political decision, I look to politicians who have he same empathy, whether they served or not. It is not an easy thing to send people to their deaths in combat, nor should it be.
In fact, it should be the hardest decision a president makes.
9
There is something deliciously fitting and just about seeing the moderate and competent President Obama, who is so incandescently loathed by the GOP, calmly telling the Republicans that their candidate is “woefully unprepared” to serve in the White House and to drop their support of him.
Absolutely wonderful.
Absolutely wonderful.
12
My father died in the Viet Nam war. He was a man with deep integrity who loved his family and country. It makes me sad reading some of these letters.
6
Second try: I entered Brandeis two years after Ted, in an era still roiled by the Vietnam "war," what is most striking to me as I read through the comments here is how extraordinarily fraught this topic remains, so many years later. I left Brandeis after freshman year, and headed to St. Louis to complete both undergraduate and graduate degrees at Washington University. The atmosphere at Brandeis was crazy in those days, in no small measure because of that "war." The lessons seared upon the entire nation in that era are still extant, indeed, they are front and center, today. Donald Trump lied about his "lottery number" - he didn't have one. He created a phony excuse and bought a physician to verify his "infirmity," as did many others with the means to procure their evasion. Now, we have less than 1% of the population shouldering a burden of seemingly endless conscription, in every imaginable hellhole on earth, with neither clarity of mission nor credible exit plan. To that degree, little has actually changed, except that the potential for physical carnage and devastation is even greater. We must confront our failure to balance the burden currently placed upon so few among us with respect to military service - it is long overdue to reinstate the draft, with an option for national service for true CO's. We owe a collective debt of honor, gratitude and lifetime support for everyone in the military. Trump's personality disorder renders him incapable of honoring anyone but him.
7
All the combatants in Vietnam fought tenaciously and with courage, and in battle the U.S. forces rarely were not victorious, but the purpose of the war was neither clear nor directed by well defined and sound policies.The Vietnam War began with the resistance to the Japanese occupation during World War II and continued when the French and the British attempted to restore the French colonial regime over Indochina after the defeat of Japan. The United States considered Ho Chi Minh as an agent of International Communism's drive to take over the world led by the U.S.S.R. and the People's Republic of China, and France needed bolstering so it became involved under President Truman. The purpose of continuing to oppose the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong was to contain International Communism, not to protect a liberal democratic state in South Vietnam. It became clear by 1963 that South Vietnam was not a true state apart from the North in any real sense, and that the government in the South was no liberal democracy. So persisting in that conflict and then escalating it was mostly to show the U.S.S.R. and China that the United States would not yield to their attempts to expand their control over territory, and disregarding the nationalist purposes of the Vietnamese Communists and the government in the North to reunify the country. In the end, Vietnam became a unified country under a ruthless Communist leadership which was not controlled by the U.S.S.R. nor by China.
1
Trump's soul is arrogant and jerk like, but it is certainly there. One thing he is not is an emotionless machine. He does not parse statements with partial truths to give others the wrong impression of reality like his opponent. I am voting Johnson, like I did in the last election, but Trump is a more trustworthy human being than Hillary. Khizr Khan is a Democratic hack whose son served his country. Trump may be insensitive, he may have no empathy, but that does not mean what he said was wrong.
2
Those of us who were serious members of the anti-Vietnam war movement don't go along with Gup's feelings of guilt for not taking part in that criminal war. Looking back at what our government did in southeast Asia does not "give rise to a new patriotism" in those of greater knowledge and insight than Ted Gup seems to have, but rather to a questioning of the whole notion of militaristic patriotism.
When I take "recognition of the courage and grit of those who ... had gone off to war," I include the Vietnamese who fought against US aggression, under much worse conditions. I have a great deal of pity for the veterans in both countries, and support policies to relieve their continued sufferings. I'm more willing to be taxed to pay for that than many flag wavers I know.
That idiotic war did no good for anyone, so I feel more pride than guilt in refusing to join in.
When I take "recognition of the courage and grit of those who ... had gone off to war," I include the Vietnamese who fought against US aggression, under much worse conditions. I have a great deal of pity for the veterans in both countries, and support policies to relieve their continued sufferings. I'm more willing to be taxed to pay for that than many flag wavers I know.
That idiotic war did no good for anyone, so I feel more pride than guilt in refusing to join in.
7
Vietnam and Iraq were both eminently pointless and futile wars. The men who went there fought and died for their comrades in arms, and for this, all honor to them. But did they accomplish anything comparable to liberating Europe or keeping half of Korea free to eventually become a prosperous democracy? Which of my rights and freedoms were protected by the slaughters in Vietnam and Iraq?
5
I think the key to Trump's character is in the term "narcissistic personality disorder" as defined in the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" (5th ed.) that was published by the American Psychiatric Association. When you look at the criteria for this syndrome, it is crystal clear that Mr. Trump suffers from this condition. The bigger problem that people with narcissistic personality disorder don't think anything is wrong. In fact, their view of the world is quite rosy, so long as they aren't thwarted...
6
I feel the author captures a close proximity to the reality of the time, 1969. By that point I had already been drafted, even against my educational deferment because of the lack of credits. Not having the money or the parental support to do anything else but be drafted, I instead enlisted in the Navy in my attempt to avoid "going" to Vietnam. Who went and who didn't pretty much came down to who had connections and money, evidently Trump had both. I guess i am not really making any point here….basically just agreeing with the author, that Trump behavior in 2016 depicts someone who obviously never thought about what it would have meant to sacrifice something for his country, for his countrymen. SO, i guess now, he will sacrifice running his business, to be President…something, he has already pretty much said. NO thank you Trump.
35
I would like to read the FIRST newspaper report about draft dodging
Bill Clinton, who ran as fast as he could to the UK.
Anybody?
Bill Clinton, who ran as fast as he could to the UK.
Anybody?
2
Why do you have to malign the psychiatrist? You lied to him, or guilted him, or in some other way cajoled him into helping you. Psychiatry is a tough job due in part to people like you. Doctors are helping people, and you exploited that. Please apologize.
2
Those of us who are cowards, including me, and recognise our flaw, spend the rest of our lives trying to atone for it and prove that we can be brave.
And those of who don't? Why, they become another Bush, a Cheney or a Trump.
And those of who don't? Why, they become another Bush, a Cheney or a Trump.
6
Trust me, you didn't miss a thing...
USN 1967 - 71
Viet Nam 1968
USN 1967 - 71
Viet Nam 1968
3
I am a heroes...but I am against people dying in stupid wars.ONLY if you defend your own country ,on your soil.on another soil you are a paid mercenary...
1
What sort of young men would not want to fight in a war?
2
Thank you for helping me understand my thoughts about the Vietnam era and anger at Donald Trump. I got lucky in the draft, but still carry guilt about it. I hope always do honor to all who serve. Your words ring very true to me.
It's ironic that Trump missed his chance to off to war because ever since his campaign began there is almost no group or nationality that he hasn't declared his own personal war against. I am really convinced that real estate mogul from New York really does not want the job he is running for but cannot admit that to himself. At every opportunity, he seems to seek to alienate yet another group of voters.
2
While I appreciate Mr. Gup's attempt at making sense of the draft and the Vietnam war, I disagree with his perspective. The real heroes and patriots of that time were the men who said "No" to our country's demands. The Vietnam war was a horrible, 10-year long mistake, the lessons from which we, as a country, still don't accept or understand.
5
Sorry if it sounded like I was defending Mr. Trump, but not at all. Had he outright refused induction into the military, I would, indeed, be defending him, but slipping out of the draft and going on with his life doesn't win any applause from me. To those who actually refused to be drafted, or at least stated clearly that they would not serve, to me those are the ones who saw things clearly and did what was right. Many of them did sacrifice a lot, whether serving in jail, moving to Canada, or just having to be the targets of the faux patriots who supported the war no matter what.
2
I graduated high school in 1964. I grew up lower middle class in CA. My classmates went to Vietnam. None of them had ins with MDs who would write them letters resulting in medical deferments. My guess is Donald Trump knew not one person who went to war in Vietnam. The men he knew ALL got medical deferments. It is just another story of classism in the US. Simple as that.
12
I followed a similar path as Dr. Gup and Mr. Trump. I am alive and I did not serve. I honor those who have served. I dishonor the "system" that has NOT declared war since WWII yet sends our troops off to die in some God forsaken part of the World. I honor our soldiers but not our politicians. Ms. Clinton is part of the system. Mr. Trump is certainly not part of the system. Mr. Trump raises issues that I have never heard from any politician. Uncomfortable maybe, not PC for sure, but not invalid.
Regarding some of the comments below, I have never understood why it is difficult for people to both vehemently oppose war and support and respect those who served.
7
Donald Trump doesn't see anything outside the huge self-reflecting psychological glass mirror he has carried apparently since childhood. Social cognition and emotional intelligence are not a part of his make-up. We can appreciate Mr. Gup's revelations and reflections -- so often played out in our Boomer Generation. But, the only one with 'delusions' is Trump. He can't see what balanced or informed people can. Woe to his true believers. He talks a line but doesn't see them in his self-reflecting one-way mirrored world.
2
I can't help it but to wonder what kind of agreement Hillary made with Trump to get him help her to become president in the coming elections. I figure that he says everything that he utters in order to get people to vote for Hillary because whatever he talks about is so stupid, repugnant and ignorant that's beyond belief. Unless he's mentally handicapped, it's hard to believe that he, a college educated man has such lack of common sense. What did she promise him, federal contracts?
8
Delusions of grandeur - now that is the diagnosis that the Donald should have received, and one which would have provided a deferment that no one could quibble with today.
Just a guy who was in Nam, but back in '64, before things got really bloody.
Just a guy who was in Nam, but back in '64, before things got really bloody.
7
Trump is morally bankrupt and his rant becomes progressively grotesque. Vietnam was a horrible mistake but the ignominy of it does not make those who could not avoid the draft dishonorable.
One cannot belittle the draft dodgers’ fears of having to die in a war they did not believe in, just as one cannot refuse to accept their remorse and survivor’s guilt.
None of these fine points can penetrate a mind that is so totally corrupted by self- aggrandizement, narcissism, self-absorption and vainglory.
After November 8 we will know whether this was all just a bad dream gone away or whether we wake up to a terrible 4 year reality and recognize that love has not trumped hate.
One cannot belittle the draft dodgers’ fears of having to die in a war they did not believe in, just as one cannot refuse to accept their remorse and survivor’s guilt.
None of these fine points can penetrate a mind that is so totally corrupted by self- aggrandizement, narcissism, self-absorption and vainglory.
After November 8 we will know whether this was all just a bad dream gone away or whether we wake up to a terrible 4 year reality and recognize that love has not trumped hate.
4
I am grateful to the author of this article. Like him, I, too, got a letter from a psychiatrist and received a 1-Y deferment. I was greatly relieved, but I was aware at that moment that I had made a choice that I would have to live with for the rest of my life. For me, it was inconceivable that I would avoid placing myself in the hands of and at the service of the government, whether my views about the war were right or wrong, and yet at some later time seek a leadership roll of that very service. For in both situations you must make your own personal considerations subservient to the needs of the nation, whether you agree with national policy or not. If Congress declares war a president must act as commander in chief whether he agrees or not. To my mind if you are not willing to do one, you are disqualified from doing the other. That is why even though I am a Democrat the actions of Bill Clinton in avoiding the draft are equally dishonorable as those of Dick Cheney and George Bush. I didn't know about Joe Biden until recently and I always regarded him as an honorable man but if he falls in the same class I would have to view him exactly as I view the others. This was not just hypothetical. As a young lawyer I was once sounded out as a possible candidate for public office. I declined solely because of the choice that I made 50 years ago. Donald Trump's willingness to obfuscate about a choice that he clearly made is to me despicable. He made his choice. He lacks character.
2
Reading this column I couldn't help but go back in memory to my own time in that awful era. I'm 72 now, but back then I had multiple student deferments, first as an undergrad, then for PhD studies. Still, I was against the Vietnam war and even marched in protests in Madison WI. I grew up in a poor neighborhood in Brooklyn, and though I did not pursue higher education to avoid the draft, I was always aware of those less fortunate who went in my place and probably died in a jungle in SE Asia. When I was able to go to DC on business, I always made it a point to visit the Vietnam memorial and, touching it reminded myself of the sacrifice made by others my age. And I would never stoop so low as to insult a returning veteran. Instead, whenever I met one I thanked him for his service, as I do now for John McCain, Tammy Duckworth and other ex-servicemen and women. I won't dirty these comments by mentioning the name of the GOP candidate for President.
5
I find it disturbing that Trump, a man who has repeatedly offended those who have served our nation honorably, could be our Commander in Chief. What an insulting, cruel joke. Sadly, with his limited knowledge of foreign policy, and his inability to avoid entangling himself in petty arguments, this dangerous man could send our troops into harm's way.
5
I think Renata has said it the best in this discussion. It's not that he got a deferment. It's that he denigrates those who served:John McCain or even those who lost their life serving: The Kahns. Trump is completely unfit to direct the foreign policy of our nation or command our military. I don't understand why Republican Party voters nominated a person like this for our President.
53
I am tried of reading and hearing about Trump. Does the media have nothing else it can obsess over? I could care less about whether he's a drafter dodger. The man is an narcissist which most sane people recognize. But if the media continues insisting on promoting his name they will elect him president
5
"Work harder, dream bigger... risk greater"
Trump is more like a patient with emotional disabilities... but with the backing of a lot of supporters that hope to get their champion through.
At the final analysis is a "Chronicle of a Bet Foretold" written by a lot of accomplices expecting to win big.
Trump is more like a patient with emotional disabilities... but with the backing of a lot of supporters that hope to get their champion through.
At the final analysis is a "Chronicle of a Bet Foretold" written by a lot of accomplices expecting to win big.
I joined the Peace Corps in 1964, before the draft became more ubiquitous. By the end of my two years, I had to report for a physical. It was only due to a case of malaria that I avoided military service.
1
Yeah, many of us share mixed feelings about this time in our lives. My decision not to participate in the war was came from a good education and a high school course in modern asian history. The notion of civil disobedience as a form of protest seemed appropriate for these times for civil rights but as well as an immoral war of choice. At least civil rights has had a better outcome. The foolish wars of choice have continued to burden us with undue suffering brought on chickenhawks. When will they ever learn.
1
In 1964, I went for my pre-induction physical, which I passed with flying colors. I was now faced with the terrible choice that all of us who opposed the war confronted. I postponed the decision by going into the Peace Corps (something I had wanted to do anyway) and serving in Nigeria. This provided only a 2 year respite and by the time I returned to the US, the war was raging. I managed to escape the draft by going to graduate school with student deferments. Eventually I became old enough that being drafted was unlikely. However, I would have done whatever was needed to avoid serving in what I considered to be an unjust war: Canada, conscientious objection, prison even.
I never felt any animosity towards those of my generation who ended up going to war, among them one of my cousins, rather I felt fortunate that I was able, undoubtedly because I came from a more privileged background, to avoid service. It is common now to say that the returning vets were vilified by those who avoided the draft, by whatever means, but I never observed any such vilification. I had several Viet Vet friends, who were just as opposed to the war as was I. Mostly ordinary people living through that period were victims, in some sense, whatever their choices may have been.
I never felt any animosity towards those of my generation who ended up going to war, among them one of my cousins, rather I felt fortunate that I was able, undoubtedly because I came from a more privileged background, to avoid service. It is common now to say that the returning vets were vilified by those who avoided the draft, by whatever means, but I never observed any such vilification. I had several Viet Vet friends, who were just as opposed to the war as was I. Mostly ordinary people living through that period were victims, in some sense, whatever their choices may have been.
4
Well said. I respect that you made the decision to avoid service. In October 1966, during my second year of college I chose to enlist. I was the most inept soldier in the history of the United States Army. But. I did not avoid service. I did try, earnestly, to stay out of Viet Nam as did many men. We did not want to die on some battlefield thousands of miles from home. We wanted to come back home, finish college, find a nice girl, get married, have children and a successful career. We were not cowards because we didn't want to die in Viet Nam. Neither were you Mr. Gup.
Wanting to live is not cowardice. Looking for reasons to survive a brutally unjust war is reasonable.
You are right too, about Mr. Trump. He is indeed a coward. He's a coward because he lacks empathy. He lacks a conscience and he truly lacks guilt. He's proud of what he did. He feels no shame.
Mr. Trump avoided the draft because he felt he was privileged. Trump is not wracked by guilt or remorse for not having served. He doesn't care. He doesn't care about the sacrifice of so many 19 year old young men who were compelled to be on the battlefields of Viet Nam.
Donald Trump can never understand the reverence and respect that America has for its citizen soldiers. The men and women who serve come from many backgrounds. The great majority are not from privileged wealth. They come from ordinary, modest homes. They are citizen soldiers.
Donald Trump can't lead those he demeans and denigrates. He's not worthy.
Wanting to live is not cowardice. Looking for reasons to survive a brutally unjust war is reasonable.
You are right too, about Mr. Trump. He is indeed a coward. He's a coward because he lacks empathy. He lacks a conscience and he truly lacks guilt. He's proud of what he did. He feels no shame.
Mr. Trump avoided the draft because he felt he was privileged. Trump is not wracked by guilt or remorse for not having served. He doesn't care. He doesn't care about the sacrifice of so many 19 year old young men who were compelled to be on the battlefields of Viet Nam.
Donald Trump can never understand the reverence and respect that America has for its citizen soldiers. The men and women who serve come from many backgrounds. The great majority are not from privileged wealth. They come from ordinary, modest homes. They are citizen soldiers.
Donald Trump can't lead those he demeans and denigrates. He's not worthy.
6
There are some of us who heard birth dates called out that December night and made an effort to honorably resist being drafted to kill.
I tried to be recognized as a Conscious Objector so that, instead of being put in the position of having to kill other people, I could serve time caring for the institutionalized.
My Draft Board decided I was a liar.
When I presented letters and tried to get them to talk with my Pastor about me the ignored the former and refused to hear the latter.
I finally told them that, if I wasn't sincere, I would have tried to get out because of slightly elevated blood pressure. They immediately jumped on that giving me a medical deferral. They didn't classify me as IV-F. I think it was I-Y (Registrant available for military service, but qualified for military only in the event of war or national emergency.)
To this day I bear a stigma of not being "willing to serve my country" --as many whom I knew put it, but there must have been no war because they didn't induct me.
I tried to be recognized as a Conscious Objector so that, instead of being put in the position of having to kill other people, I could serve time caring for the institutionalized.
My Draft Board decided I was a liar.
When I presented letters and tried to get them to talk with my Pastor about me the ignored the former and refused to hear the latter.
I finally told them that, if I wasn't sincere, I would have tried to get out because of slightly elevated blood pressure. They immediately jumped on that giving me a medical deferral. They didn't classify me as IV-F. I think it was I-Y (Registrant available for military service, but qualified for military only in the event of war or national emergency.)
To this day I bear a stigma of not being "willing to serve my country" --as many whom I knew put it, but there must have been no war because they didn't induct me.
3
Odd that he didn't mention draft refusers. Over a half million men refused the draft. I was one of them, didn't have a doctor's letter, or use any of the other tricks to get out, just flat out refused, and took my chances. But I don't blame anyone for not wanting to die for a war that was not in the national interest and by 1965 was clearly unwinnable. I burnt my draft card in 1967 on the steps of the Pentagon. I was evicted from my first induction at Fort Holabird, Md. for passing out anti-war leaflets. In 1969 I was arrested by the FBI for draft evasion and was given a 1A Delinquent status to immediately be inducted. So I reported for induction with the intention of refusing to cross the line and accept induction, but by that time morale in Vietnam had collapsed, and the ranks were filled with troublemakers like me, so at days end they didn't want me and gave me a 4F. I'm proud of the path I took, and have told my story countless times to young people.
5
Your point is well taken. A qualification for being President should be someone who served in a military service in the USA. Also, if there was a war, large armed conflict going on at the time, that the person running for President was in the combat zone.
We have to do something to get qualified Presidents because the last few and the present two candidates have no clue about warfare.
We have to do something to get qualified Presidents because the last few and the present two candidates have no clue about warfare.
I too came of age at the tail end of the Viet Nam war. By 1971, there were no more education deferments. Only medical. And a "national draft" system administered by the local draft board, was inherently unfair. In my hometown, young draft age black men who were picked up by the police for a minor infraction, were given a choice: jail or Nam.
The National Guard was for the sons of local business leaders and politicians ( I see you George Bush) who had the connections to get in. A Times article in 70-71 said our soldiers in the bush were primarily inner city blacks, and poor whites from rural areas. The country outsourced its war to the poorer classes of our society.
I had two older brothers serve during that time, one in the Army, the other the Air Force. As the youngest son, who had a chance for college, my father ( a WWII vet) argued mightily about me joining ROTC in college versus getting drafted. My lottery was held my freshman year. I was lucky with a 336 number and finished my education unscathed. I would have served if called but got lucky inside of the system.
The unfairness and special treatment that abounded in the draft system is not discussed. We should have everyone give two years of national service for fairness in this regard.
I
The National Guard was for the sons of local business leaders and politicians ( I see you George Bush) who had the connections to get in. A Times article in 70-71 said our soldiers in the bush were primarily inner city blacks, and poor whites from rural areas. The country outsourced its war to the poorer classes of our society.
I had two older brothers serve during that time, one in the Army, the other the Air Force. As the youngest son, who had a chance for college, my father ( a WWII vet) argued mightily about me joining ROTC in college versus getting drafted. My lottery was held my freshman year. I was lucky with a 336 number and finished my education unscathed. I would have served if called but got lucky inside of the system.
The unfairness and special treatment that abounded in the draft system is not discussed. We should have everyone give two years of national service for fairness in this regard.
I
2
Viet Nam was a war in which we had both businesses being involved. I did not serve because I believed the true patriotic position was that the Virt Nam war was immoral. Had I not been 4-F (for legitimate reasons) I was considering CO status or taking advantage of parental heritage and becoming a Canadian citizen.
I am sorry for the forced sacrifices of those who were drafted, but my empaihy is less with those who volunteered in a conflict I still consider to be immoral and wrong to this day. Not everyone who didn't serve was a draft dodger, some, perhaps many, of us would not serve in that war on principle and were willing to do something else instead to hold fat to those principles.
t
I am sorry for the forced sacrifices of those who were drafted, but my empaihy is less with those who volunteered in a conflict I still consider to be immoral and wrong to this day. Not everyone who didn't serve was a draft dodger, some, perhaps many, of us would not serve in that war on principle and were willing to do something else instead to hold fat to those principles.
t
2
Evidently, we voters don't really care about our politicians military service or lack thereof. Otherwise, Bush II et all would not have even considered a run for office. Sadly, in itself, it is a non-issue. Like tax-returns, it should be one thing on a long list of requirements that anyone who runs for office should disclose.
2
I hate the Vietnam war, which has permanently besmirched the honor of the United States. I was confused by it and afraid of it in 1965 when, as a college freshman, I became eligible for the draft. After I took a class in International Law and understood the ignoble roots of our involvement there, I hated it. I did what I had to to avoid that war, and decided then and there that I would never criticize any of my peers for what they did to get out of it, nor would I criticize any of them who, out of an erroneous (in my opinion) sense of patriotism, volunteered for it. And I will always have great empathy toward those who were forced to go there and fight, against their will. Therefore, I do not criticize the Republican candidate for (possibly) faking his way out of the war. He didn't have to go, and that is a victory of sorts. Furthermore, his attacks on the Khans are not due, I believe, to a disdain for those who have fought and died or been injured in America's increasingly misguided military adventures. Instead, I believe it is the product of arrogance, intolerance, and racism. Either way, he and all of his party's candidates are entirely unsuited to be put in charge of the government of the United States, and have shown themselves to be completely incapable of being part of a loyal opposition.
5
Actual service in the military isn't, and should never be, a prerequisite for being President. However, recognizing the service of those who were either conscripted or volunteered is an essential element in being "Presidential."
The Veteran who handed Mr. Trump his Purple Heart might have been making a criticism of Trump or showing his loyalty. I just hope that Trump gave it back later. If Trump were ever to pint that medal on his person he would be in violation of federal law that makes it a crime to wear or claim military honors which you have not earned.
I don't criticize my fellow citizens who avoided the draft even though I served during and in Viet Nam. Many had good reasons or a moral case to claim and others were simply lucky.
To date no President, who hasn't actually served, has denigrated anyone in the military or the families of those who served and often died while in uniform. Neither have they claimed that their careers were equivalent service.
The Veteran who handed Mr. Trump his Purple Heart might have been making a criticism of Trump or showing his loyalty. I just hope that Trump gave it back later. If Trump were ever to pint that medal on his person he would be in violation of federal law that makes it a crime to wear or claim military honors which you have not earned.
I don't criticize my fellow citizens who avoided the draft even though I served during and in Viet Nam. Many had good reasons or a moral case to claim and others were simply lucky.
To date no President, who hasn't actually served, has denigrated anyone in the military or the families of those who served and often died while in uniform. Neither have they claimed that their careers were equivalent service.
3
I was a woman in college at the start of US involvement in Vietnam. In that world, everyone I knew was opposed to it. But opposed or not, it wasn't possible to not be deeply troubled about the war and the draft. In the sixties, opposition to the war seemed at times to carry its own negative consequences if you fled to Canada, for instance. As the years passed, I came to know people who had been drafted and who had suffered much more than anyone who fled to Canada or joined the Peace Corps as I had. People who hadn't escaped the draft were victims of our government's insistence on pursuing a war it should never have entered. The stain of Vietnam tainted us all. To be of the Viet Nam generation and not to be aware of this stain is to be without a conscience and without empathy.
3
Those people who would rather read Horace and Catullus in the library than go to war didn't need to take psychological deferrments. They could get educational deferrments. Chances are most of the people who chose to go to war rather than study wouldn't have been studying on this level either. Many of them might have been motivated by their war experiences to do so after they came home, one can only hope. I suppose many psychologists would have genuinely felt that someone who wanted to be a writer and travel around the world suffered from delusions of grandeur, but many writers would have felt that way about someone who wanted to be a psychologist. Also many psychologists ended up working for the government designing ways of torturing people. As far as Trump is concerned, it seems worthwhile to compare people on the right such as George W. Bush who received deferrments with people on the left, who seemed more often to evade the draft more because of conscience than inconvenience. The war and the draft forced people to make decisions, and everybody made their own decisions. Pat Paulson called the people who got drafted soldiers, we call pro-war people who evaded the draft chicken hawks.
1
When I reported for my draft physical in Detroit eight of us were there from my high school class out of a class of 140 total. We were there because we felt it was our duty. I was going to school and I had two girlfriends they wanted to get married so I did not go. Being from Detroit, there was a strong ethic of work and service to defend our country so I did not even try. After my seven day pre-induction letter came, i went down and joined the Navy Reserve electing for the two years immediate active duty. I spent two years of sea duty and requested to go to Viet Nam for the last eight months of my enlistment. So much for that. I have never been so proud as when I received my Viet Nam Service medal with a Battle Star, but I wish that I could have done more. It was nothing compared to all of those who did not come home and those who came home wounded. I am humbled by their service. I thought for many years, that military service should be required to hold the office of President, but that is simply not a good idea. I was ambivalent about Donald Trump running until I found that he went to high school at the New York Military Academy and while their achieved a leadership role. At least he shows responsibility and military discipline. We need to have a strong military and negotiate with Russia and China knowing that we have a strong deterrent, to keep the peace. The alternative is to take the chance that Iran, North Korea may ally with China and then what?
1
I served in the Korean War. What has been missing since then is the sense of obligation to the nation. I was drafted in 1951 and served in FECOM (Korean theater) for 18 months. When I received my draft notice I had been married for just over 3 weeks. Although I was genuinely upset and unhappy, there was no way I could complain. My brothers and brother-in-laws served in WW 2, nearly all in severe combat conditions in the Pacific and Europe. Although there were many "draft dodgers" in WW 2 and Korea, the great mass of Americans felt a sincere dedication to serve. During my stay in the service I had, in most situations, field and command officers who had served in WW 2, but had to leave jobs and careers behind when they were called back. Needless to say, it was sad to watch what happened to the country with Vietnam and later conflicts.
Mr. Trump probably never knew what real commitment meant to a nation challenged by WW 2 and Korea.
Mr. Trump probably never knew what real commitment meant to a nation challenged by WW 2 and Korea.
Well said. Being born in 1945 and a low lottery number I was "saved" by having a heart murmur which has since be successfully corrected through surgery. Having visited Vietnam in 2004 (the old revetments still standing at the airport) I was amazed that anyone could live, much less fight, in those torrid jungles. Trump's ego is blinding him to the fact that he is destroying his biggest financial asset, his name. He will be, deservedly, defeated. Then who will choose to stay in his hotels and play at his golf courses? Certainly not well-educated Americans, South Americans or Europeans or Muslims of any nationality. What developers will pay his licensing fees (which are his main source of income). Congratulations Donald, your self destruction will be well deserved.
3
Winning an election..... any election..... requires strategy. Trump enjoyed all of his outsized negative publicity during the Republican primary which was said to be smart giving him constant media attention for free - and he won. Now he's getting the same thing but thinks he's being picked on (as do other supporters) and must think the same 'strategy' will work in the general election. I'm no fan of Hillary (if she was a decent candidate she'd be ahead by 20 points right now) but a win for him in this election (heaven forbid) were he any other candidate should be relatively easy. The fact that it's not is the greatest statement of his incompetence and his alone. Stick with campaigning 101 and hammer with the cornucopia of material against Clinton and there's a good chance he might win even with his obvious personality flaws. That he can't make a few simple adjustments any idiot would advise him makes those flaws a non-starter and he's either a buffoon or demented. Yeah, Hillary's not in the limelight and not much to report about - with her record that's called 'strategy'. What a depressing election and I'm hoping Hillary will surprise me - there's no doubt she'll make it to November.
3
How soon people forget. This was not a popular war, especially with liberals.
In the course of the Vietnam War, about 15.4 million men received deferments, were exempted or disqualified. Polifact.
Ironic and hypocritical that now liberals and the NYT are calling Trump guilty of evading the draft.
In the course of the Vietnam War, about 15.4 million men received deferments, were exempted or disqualified. Polifact.
Ironic and hypocritical that now liberals and the NYT are calling Trump guilty of evading the draft.
1
I believe I was in the room at Brandeis with Mr. Gup. He has brought back memories and accurately states the feelings of so many of our generation about that time. Also, he expresses how so many of us feel today about the past and the present. Thank you Ted.
1
The American Vietnam War was a misbegotten war with absolutely no merit. The American people owe a huge debt to all the people that died (58,000 American, 2 MILLION Vietnamese!) The best way to make amends at this point is to stop the insanity of needless wars. Listen to the true words of MLK Jr., and many others, at last.
4
Before I retired I was a partner in a landscape design/build firm. We had a wonderful cement finisher who was a Viet Nam vet. Larry had severe PTSD which caused him to drink way more than he should and many mornings my business partner had to bail him out of jail so he could come to work. One day he simply disappeared. It was hard to work with him and witness his suffering, not knowing how to help other than being a friend, and in those days there weren't the help programs that exist now in some cities. But the hardest thing was not knowing if he was at least ok after he disappeared.
3
As a Viet Nam Veteran it is astounding to me to hear those that experienced guilt for not going to war or participating in the Military during those terrible yrs.
Well, you not only avoided the draft or the lottery , in most cases through some sort of , White privilege, I'm sure. You didn't even consider public service as an alternative to Military service. You, didn't put anything into any form of harms way.
I was stunned the first time I heard a childhood friend of mine, some 30 years after the War; that he felt ,"guilty " for not having gone. Stunned!
Well, you not only avoided the draft or the lottery , in most cases through some sort of , White privilege, I'm sure. You didn't even consider public service as an alternative to Military service. You, didn't put anything into any form of harms way.
I was stunned the first time I heard a childhood friend of mine, some 30 years after the War; that he felt ,"guilty " for not having gone. Stunned!
I do not feel guilty for not serving in Vietnam (my draft number was 357). Nor if drafted would I have gone willingly. That war was immoral and each of us has an obligation to follow our conscience. The war in Iraq and Afghanistan has cost Americans over two trillion dollars and has only made matters worse. While the individual sacrifice of the soldiers that fought in this war need to be respected their deaths do not create a moral justification for the war nor should it silence criticism and debate about the war. What is truly disingenuous is how liberals tolerate what has truly become a Third World War given the lack of a draft system that would have force them to decide whether to continue the status quo and to be willing to place their lives and fortune on the line.
3
"I am no fan of Mr. Trump’s, but on this issue, I am in no position to stand in judgment."
And yet you do, Mr. Gup - you do!
And yet you do, Mr. Gup - you do!
2
My father got the Purple Heart for dying.
4
As people wax philosophical about their service or their avoidance thereof, it is perhaps best to remember that the war in Vietnam was brought about through the foreign policies of John F. Kennedy (D-MA) and Lyndon B. Johnson (D-TX).
As far as I can tell, the current Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton shares the same interventionist ethic as did Kennedy and Johnson, as witnessed by her positions on US involvement in Libya and in Syria.
Does the readership really believe that Hillary Clinton won't involve the United States in military conflicts around the world?
Dream on, oh liberal...er...progressive...er...whatever it is that you are calling yourselves these days to evade having to take responsibility for the destruction that your ideology and your policies have wrought upon the world.
As far as I can tell, the current Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton shares the same interventionist ethic as did Kennedy and Johnson, as witnessed by her positions on US involvement in Libya and in Syria.
Does the readership really believe that Hillary Clinton won't involve the United States in military conflicts around the world?
Dream on, oh liberal...er...progressive...er...whatever it is that you are calling yourselves these days to evade having to take responsibility for the destruction that your ideology and your policies have wrought upon the world.
4
Actually, Owly, the U.S. involvement in Viet Nam began under Eisenhower in 1955. As a Republican, Eisenhower also was the original proponent of the "Domino Theory" upon which we built our strategy for SE Asia.
So perhaps that's "best to remember", too?
So perhaps that's "best to remember", too?
3
So Trump was born with a silver bone spur in his mouth?
7
Wouldn't it be fitting if Captain Khan's death not only saved his troops, but also saved the nation from a President Trump?
22
Khan's son has been deceased through thre election cycles. Why now? BTW, our Constitution has no mention of immigration Mr. Khan.
1
Trump is 100% unfit to serve as the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.
How ironic it was an American Muslim family that showed us what Trump truly is: a soulless, selfish, narcissist who cares for no one but himself.
Mr. Khan, your son did not die in vain. Many blessings.
How ironic it was an American Muslim family that showed us what Trump truly is: a soulless, selfish, narcissist who cares for no one but himself.
Mr. Khan, your son did not die in vain. Many blessings.
18
A draft dodger condemning another draft dodger for the manner in which he dodged...what a joke. Trump gets condemned for his draft dodging while Muhammed Ali gets praised and hailed a hero for draft dodging. All of there actions are the same, who cares why or how they did it. Behavior doesn't become acceptable depending on which excuse you choose.
3
Did Trump do jail time and get fined?
On April 28, 1967, with the United States at war in Vietnam, Ali refused to be inducted into the armed forces, saying “I ain't got no quarrel with those Vietcong.” On June 20, 1967, Ali was convicted of draft evasion, sentenced to five years in prison, fined $10,000 and banned from boxing for three years
On April 28, 1967, with the United States at war in Vietnam, Ali refused to be inducted into the armed forces, saying “I ain't got no quarrel with those Vietcong.” On June 20, 1967, Ali was convicted of draft evasion, sentenced to five years in prison, fined $10,000 and banned from boxing for three years
4
You totally misread this essay! What he's criticizing is Trump's total lack of humility or awareness with regard to what constitutes true sacrifice.
6
Ted, spare me your modest guilt. Of course you did it out of cowardice. And your admiration for those of us who did serve? Go to a VA hospital where we who did serve are struggling with Agent Orange effects, or PTSD, and say that. We would gladly exchange places. Your dodging, and Trumps' meant that someone else went instead of you. That is ignoble.
5
I lost good friends, who faced war.
3
Wow!!! Could not be said better.
I joined because I was tired of people telling me what to do. By the way that is a very good definition of a Oxymoron.
With that said it is not your motives for showing up or how well you did in the military it is that you bothered to suit up and show up as so many did not.
I do understand Mr Gup. No hard feelings at this end.
With that said it is not your motives for showing up or how well you did in the military it is that you bothered to suit up and show up as so many did not.
I do understand Mr Gup. No hard feelings at this end.
1
Remorse and more remorse but NEVER directed at the true victims--the Vietnamese, Cambodian and Laotian people slaughtered by the millions by the United States military, their countrymen tortured in ways worthy of ISIS, their children burned with napalm, their countries, demolished.
Isn't it time for ALL those who made the decision to participate in this obscenity to repent?
Isn't it time for ALL those who made the decision to participate in this obscenity to repent?
3
Right you are! When you feel your country is involved in an immoral war, isn't it your duty to defy it and stop it any way you can? How did the Vietnamese offend America any time before the war? Because they had finally defeated the French, the Japanese, were worried about the Chinese and wanted the US out of Vietnam? Duh! People who avoided the draft and serving in Vietnam are now remorseful that they didn't go to Vietnam and help to carpet bomb, napalm and pour Agent Orange over the jungles, farms and the Vietnamese people? What? Third generation Vietnamese kids, now adults, with DNA-related maladies because their grandparents were exposed to napalm and Agent Orange, are now are housed permanently in hospitals all over Vietnam. These Vietnamese have extended limbs, brain damage, seizures, birth defects, and will never be able to leave their hospitals. Many are orphans. Let's hear it for those brave Americans who were courageous enough to listen to their consciences and not serve in Vietnam.
2
Where did Bill Clinton serve? Former Law students never serve?
2
Beautifully written, thought, felt!
Admirably truthful! Thank you.
Admirably truthful! Thank you.
3
And yet, he has so many followers...still!
2
"untouched by humanity" exactly!
2
Bravo, Mr. Gup! Brilliant piece.
1
Trump's number in the lottery was 356.
3
he was already deferred, so it didn't matter what his number was, as he was non selectable.
1
I have to wonder how many of Trump's supporters hated, or still hate, Bill Clinton for being a "draft dodger." He wasn't, he just did well in the lottery.
6
Perfectly stated - Trump has no soul.
2
I'm sorry, Ted Gup a cheater is a cheater. Claiming Deferment for any unjustified reason is just - wrong, immoral even. Education was a reason to be granted deferment but when you think about it was afforded only by the affluent while poor especially minorities, did not have that luxury or choice. Forget about bone spurs, their deferment was only if they were in a wheelchair! ( a little exaggeration, there ) But you not superior to Trump. He talks nonchalantly about his contempt but you remain silent. But that does'nt make you superior or honorable. You are as guilty. It's just that you are being politically correct. You did not contribute but got to be a psychiatrist, putting you in the same strata ( or perhaps higher ) for life. And what did the bravest of the brave do and get? Fight, die, wounded, sometimes never to recover or land upon on the streets, homeless, begging, with PTSD, Depression, scavenging food from dumpsters and facing the elements with cardboard boxes and scorned by the well-heeled deferment cheaters. So Ted, you may wax eloquent about your innate goodness but in my eyes, you are no better than Trump.
16
The crucible of the Vietnam War draft is in my opinion one we all failed- those who went, those who fled, those who served stateside as I did for two years and those who cheated or lied to avoid going. But Vietnam was not my war it was my father's war even though he fought in WWII. The war in which you serve is not your war for it is not the one you started or allowed to happen. The war where you sit safely behind while other young males go is your war. My war is Iraq since I failed to keep it from happening.
4
Many are entitled to criticize Trump, but you, professor, are not one of them.
Your tale, sir, is that of a deceitful coward written in the blood of brave men...
Your tale, sir, is that of a deceitful coward written in the blood of brave men...
2
Ted, yours is a valid point but its power decreases once we see that neither the Vietnam war nor the war in Iraq were wars to "defend America". Neither Vietnam nor Iraq had done anything to America nor was there any real threat from either. We just had not learned MYOB, and still have not.
Humayun Khan may have thought he was defending America. It does seem from his earlier life that he was a patriot. But he was mistaken.
Still, I have learned a lesson from Trump. I have just said "I am sorry" to two people whom I (may have) offended. One said right back that he was not upset about anything. The other is aware of my willingness to make redress.
And believe me, it is a great relief to say that one is sorry. Someone should give lessons to Trump.
And for his part, Mr. Khan should acknowledge that for all his defects, Mr. Trump has raised real issues (raised also by Sanders) and if and when Trump leaves the battlefield, these issues will not have been addressed. Khan is an intelligent man - he should ask, "Never mind Trump's bad manners. Did my son have to die in the first place?"
Let me quote a part of a poem from the Gujarati poet Nanalal:
Oh repentance, you are the clear stream which descends from heaven.
The sinner bathes in it and becomes sinless again.
Trump needs a bath!
Humayun Khan may have thought he was defending America. It does seem from his earlier life that he was a patriot. But he was mistaken.
Still, I have learned a lesson from Trump. I have just said "I am sorry" to two people whom I (may have) offended. One said right back that he was not upset about anything. The other is aware of my willingness to make redress.
And believe me, it is a great relief to say that one is sorry. Someone should give lessons to Trump.
And for his part, Mr. Khan should acknowledge that for all his defects, Mr. Trump has raised real issues (raised also by Sanders) and if and when Trump leaves the battlefield, these issues will not have been addressed. Khan is an intelligent man - he should ask, "Never mind Trump's bad manners. Did my son have to die in the first place?"
Let me quote a part of a poem from the Gujarati poet Nanalal:
Oh repentance, you are the clear stream which descends from heaven.
The sinner bathes in it and becomes sinless again.
Trump needs a bath!
3
Mr. Gup,
We who were drafted accept your "appreciation for the sacrifice of those who did serve." We hold no grudge for what you did to escape the draft, but recognize something here. Many of us children of privilege had the chance to do what you did, but chose not to. Bob Kerrey and John Kerry come to mind. They elected to serve for many reasons. The elected not to avoid service in your way primarily for one reason...it was simply not moral.
There were other options to service that did not involve killing.
You chose the cowards way. That flaw in your character can be over come but it is not easy. Maybe you have taken the opportunity to serve since your act of cowardice. You don't mention it, only that you feel you "owe something."
Without that act of service, you are simply Donald Trump with the veneer of civility and diplomacy.
We who were drafted accept your "appreciation for the sacrifice of those who did serve." We hold no grudge for what you did to escape the draft, but recognize something here. Many of us children of privilege had the chance to do what you did, but chose not to. Bob Kerrey and John Kerry come to mind. They elected to serve for many reasons. The elected not to avoid service in your way primarily for one reason...it was simply not moral.
There were other options to service that did not involve killing.
You chose the cowards way. That flaw in your character can be over come but it is not easy. Maybe you have taken the opportunity to serve since your act of cowardice. You don't mention it, only that you feel you "owe something."
Without that act of service, you are simply Donald Trump with the veneer of civility and diplomacy.
7
Trump is more like another unapologetic college student of the day who sought years of deferments, Dick Cheney, who told the Washington Post ''I had other priorities in the 60's than military service."
7
I had relatives who served in WW I, WW II and Korea. By the time of Vietnam, they viewed participation in war simply as a generational rite of passage, and could not understand why anyone would question their duty to do what they had done, almost absent any moral dimension.
This is the danger of a militarized society. Dick Cheney once said, years after Vietnam had made war somewhat more odious, that his hope was that the first Gulf War, or Bush War I, as I like to call it, would rehabilitate war as a legitimate tool of foreign policy. I think he was, to some extent, successful.
This is the danger of a militarized society. Dick Cheney once said, years after Vietnam had made war somewhat more odious, that his hope was that the first Gulf War, or Bush War I, as I like to call it, would rehabilitate war as a legitimate tool of foreign policy. I think he was, to some extent, successful.
1
My father served in WWII and was wounded in combat four times. A cousin was a POW in Korea. Other cousins served in Vietnam. I am a non-violent person---but I really would like to give Trump one good slap in the face.
5
So, will he become the next President?
2
God save America if he does. (And America's allies, too.)
2
Military service requires willingness to play on the team, by team rules, and to support your comrades. Not to mention the occasional individuals who commit exceptional acts of heroism (like Captain Khan.) Can you imagine Donald Trump supporting anyone but himself?
6
Mr. Gup seems to have forgotten that several million of his age mates actively protested against the Vietnam War and by helping to shorten a failed and misbegotten war helped save thousands of American and Vietnamese lives. Shouldn't the key question be who acted to save lives by opposing the war? Not whether someone should feel guilty about not serving.
Where were you Mr. Gup in February 2003 when the US was about to launch its bloody invasion of Iraq? Were you out standing in the winter cold with your sign protesting? Or were you too busy worrying about your guilt from your college days?
Where were you Mr. Gup in February 2003 when the US was about to launch its bloody invasion of Iraq? Were you out standing in the winter cold with your sign protesting? Or were you too busy worrying about your guilt from your college days?
7
How long would it have continued without the protests? It was rather long as it was. Nixon extended it several years by sabotaging the October, 1968 peace talks in Paris and didn't want to "lose" the war before his second term.
Every male of age in that era had a different circumstance, a different story.
Politicians strut the stage of politics today who were draft-dodgers -- both GWB and Cheney took soft ways out, went on to power and talked real big, and used it to send a lot of young men to die. Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent represent the NRA, and talk about "2nd amendment remedies."
I was raised by my grandparents, both born in 1896: a career naval officer who fought through WWII and retired as Captain, and his wife.
Both had the habit of saying important things only once. When I was 16 my grandfather asked me: "Would you consider going to the naval academy?" I gulped ... it was a tough moment. I answered: "I don't think I am navy material."
My grandfather paused ... and answered "I wasn't either." That is all that was said -- my grandfather had taken the navy as an honorable way out of poverty and had made a go of it, at a very heavy price.
Two years later, as I prepared to go off to college, college deferment in hand, my grandfather said "Son ... this is a stupid war. I know you won't volunteer. But if called, you must serve." We both knew exactly what he was saying: stay out if you can, within the rules.
In the news at the time was the fact that the son of our Congressman had gotten into the Coast Guard ... and was patrolling Lake Tahoe.
My college deferment lasted until Nixon ended the war. I've always had a small soft spot in my heart for Tricky Dicky.
Politicians strut the stage of politics today who were draft-dodgers -- both GWB and Cheney took soft ways out, went on to power and talked real big, and used it to send a lot of young men to die. Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent represent the NRA, and talk about "2nd amendment remedies."
I was raised by my grandparents, both born in 1896: a career naval officer who fought through WWII and retired as Captain, and his wife.
Both had the habit of saying important things only once. When I was 16 my grandfather asked me: "Would you consider going to the naval academy?" I gulped ... it was a tough moment. I answered: "I don't think I am navy material."
My grandfather paused ... and answered "I wasn't either." That is all that was said -- my grandfather had taken the navy as an honorable way out of poverty and had made a go of it, at a very heavy price.
Two years later, as I prepared to go off to college, college deferment in hand, my grandfather said "Son ... this is a stupid war. I know you won't volunteer. But if called, you must serve." We both knew exactly what he was saying: stay out if you can, within the rules.
In the news at the time was the fact that the son of our Congressman had gotten into the Coast Guard ... and was patrolling Lake Tahoe.
My college deferment lasted until Nixon ended the war. I've always had a small soft spot in my heart for Tricky Dicky.
29
Nixon treasonously sabotaged the 1968 Paris peace talks so that he would win the election, and knew that the war would end in a loss, so let it continue through the 1972 election and 25,000 more American deaths. Countless Vietnamese deaths.
Save your soft spot for someone else.
Save your soft spot for someone else.
3
Nixon did not end the war; he extended it for five years so he could get elected in 1968.
1
Voters would be well-served by reading this before voting.
1
You should not feel ashamed for not wanting to fight in a stupid war we had no business being in but the way you avoided the draft is something to be ashamed of. You should have filed as a conscientious objector, which is an honorable way to make a stand within our system.
6
But the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a fiction, and the war in Vietnam was just as much a lie as W's invasion of Iraq. We refuse to acknowledge our nation's crimes against our own.
5
"Our country, right or wrong" means that it is our responsibility to make it right, and that we bear moral responsibility for what we allow to happen on our watch. Nobody should have "served," and those who did are owed a debt for the abuse they suffered at the hands of their elders and fellow citizens.
2
Congratulations Neal. I have read so far more than fifty letters from readers and you are the first who put the finger in the wound: by faking the Tonkin Gulf incident your generals violated the US Constitution and at the same time the Geneva Peace Conference of 1956. Vietnam War was not only imoral, pointless and genocidal of peoples of southeast Asia, but above all illegal.
2
Okay: enough about Trump the draft dodger or how upset Republicans are that he's turned on them(big surprise here). Isn't ANYONE the least concerned that this infantile megalomaniac will, as a presidential candidate, soon be getting intelligence briefings and information on American national security issues???
9
Concerned is an understatement. I have been losing sleep worrying about the possibility of this psychopath becoming elected. More worrisome is the ignorant and misguided citizens who support him.
4
Not to worry. They'll feed him the My Pet Goat version, and he won't pay attention anyway.
it is still amazing to me that we still allow people who have basically been put in power by a relatively low percentage of citizens to throw so many bodies in harm's way for so little reason.
4
The lop-sided dishonesty of the Clinton campaign is apparent once more in the selective service distortions they conjer up. If they are looking for draft dodgers Trump is not their man. Everthing he did was legal and honorable. Look to George Bush and Dick Cheney and the rest of the "patriots" if you want to see draft dodgers.
4
The author of this piece has written a book, “A Secret Gift: How One Man’s Kindness — and a Trove of Letters — Revealed the Hidden History of the Great Depression ” that provides readers with a remarkable, not-to-be-missed description of how the Depression shaped the lives of ordinary Americans. Here is a 2008 Op-Ed piece from the Times in which he recounts the story of his grandfather’s Christmas-time gifts to needy residents of Canton, Ohio in 1933.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/22/opinion/22gup.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/22/opinion/22gup.html
6
Going to Amazon right now and most likely will buy. thanks.
The angst men feel over their deferment probably covers a wide range.
You accepted “an added responsibility to pay homage to those who did serve.” As you pointed out the Vietnam War was “ignoble” in its conduct so I would hesitate to think anyone a coward who did not want to let the roll of the dice (or lottery) decide who might live and who might die. What a capricious fate.
Donald Trump’s inability to pay homage to anything or anybody beyond himself no longer surprises anyone today.
He did not even thank the Vet who gifted his Purple Heart Medal to Trump.( "I always wanted a Purple Heart Medal" - a beyond ludicrous statement. Does he have a "Trump" Tie that it will match?)
Trump is heartless.
And unlike the scarecrow he will not now find a real one inside his chest.
You accepted “an added responsibility to pay homage to those who did serve.” As you pointed out the Vietnam War was “ignoble” in its conduct so I would hesitate to think anyone a coward who did not want to let the roll of the dice (or lottery) decide who might live and who might die. What a capricious fate.
Donald Trump’s inability to pay homage to anything or anybody beyond himself no longer surprises anyone today.
He did not even thank the Vet who gifted his Purple Heart Medal to Trump.( "I always wanted a Purple Heart Medal" - a beyond ludicrous statement. Does he have a "Trump" Tie that it will match?)
Trump is heartless.
And unlike the scarecrow he will not now find a real one inside his chest.
2
Or a brain.
So you knowingly went out of your way to pay a dishonest physician to lie about your condition so that somebody else had to take your place in the army. But you're superior to Trump because you sort of feel a little bit bad about it, while Trump apparently doesn't. Sorry, but your actions look just as bad as Trump's, and you're not being as brave as you seem to think by admitting now what you did and in fact boasting about it in a backhanded way.
6
Yes, it was a pretty disturbing stretch. But considering it might be a life or death decision, I can understand it. And he had drawn a number that would ensure he had to go to a war that nobody in college at that time wanted to go to and who couldn't support.
I remember that date very well as I was in college.
I remember that date very well as I was in college.
A beautifully written piece. Thank you.
4
You put it exactly right. I feel your pain as well.
2
Love the illustration, very potent statement.
3
Dear Readers,
I am no fan of Donald Trump and will vote for Secretary Clinton in the upcoming election....that is, unless the Republican Party dumps him and selects a moderate-centrist candidate.....highly unlikely.
BUT
as a former officer who served in Vietnam while I find the tears of remorse of those who not only escaped the draft but willfully evaded it to be accepted gratefully.
However, I find that the author's criticism of Mr. Trump rings hollow to us who put ouserlves on the line and now have to listen to a repentent draft dodger criticize a fellow draft dodger. What moral authority!! The author should have thought of morals and courage back in the Vietnam era. I think the psychiatrist was correct that he did have delusions of grandeur..in fact.........they continue to this day.
Edward Burchianti
Vietnam 68-69
Formerly NYC now Williamsburg VA
I am no fan of Donald Trump and will vote for Secretary Clinton in the upcoming election....that is, unless the Republican Party dumps him and selects a moderate-centrist candidate.....highly unlikely.
BUT
as a former officer who served in Vietnam while I find the tears of remorse of those who not only escaped the draft but willfully evaded it to be accepted gratefully.
However, I find that the author's criticism of Mr. Trump rings hollow to us who put ouserlves on the line and now have to listen to a repentent draft dodger criticize a fellow draft dodger. What moral authority!! The author should have thought of morals and courage back in the Vietnam era. I think the psychiatrist was correct that he did have delusions of grandeur..in fact.........they continue to this day.
Edward Burchianti
Vietnam 68-69
Formerly NYC now Williamsburg VA
8
"...how self-absorbed (Trump) was during that period? How about "how self-absorbed Trump is all the time?"
1
What if they started a war and nobody came. Maybe Trump's implication that you are a chump if you go to war is the start of something good. We need Jimmy Hoffa to unionize the fighting men all over the world on both sides to go on strike. What a wonderful world.
Lucky #325
Lucky #325
1
Was 325 your number? Yes, that was a lucky draw!
And I totally agree. Trumping up wars is the WORST thing.
And I totally agree. Trumping up wars is the WORST thing.
Empathy.
Clearly, sir, you have it. Donald displays none.
Clearly, sir, you have it. Donald displays none.
5
You left out a few things. Someone went in your place didn't they? Did they come back? Fine words and your supposed guilt don't change that. In December of 1969 I was in a rice paddy fighting. The death toll that year averaged 32 dead Americans per day. Not only were you not there but neither were Joe Biden or Bill Clinton. For anyone like you or the Democrat Party to raise any question about the boor Trump along these lines is the height of sanctimonious, hypocrisy, narcissism and truly offensive. It is still all about you isn't it? To raise this issue regarding Trump and applying the same standard to all eliminates 3/4 of the Democrat Party from Public office.
I would ad that after 8 years of control by the Democrat Party and RINOS and numerous scandals the VA is still mistreating veterans at an undiminished rate. That is how you honor us. After the election feel free to forget us and your well deserved guilt.Do us all a favor and have the dignity to be quiet. When the test came you failed it.
I would ad that after 8 years of control by the Democrat Party and RINOS and numerous scandals the VA is still mistreating veterans at an undiminished rate. That is how you honor us. After the election feel free to forget us and your well deserved guilt.Do us all a favor and have the dignity to be quiet. When the test came you failed it.
7
Excuse me, sir, but Republicans have been in charge of Congress for some time and have consistently voted against funding the VA properly. Also you neglected to mention Dick Cheney, GW Bush and others who got deferments or cushy stateside assignments.
Nothing gets done when all we do is rant at the 'other' side!
What are you doing to change things?
Nothing gets done when all we do is rant at the 'other' side!
What are you doing to change things?
5
Trump can't let go of this because he has not admitted to himself that he lied.
A lie, set so deeply in the foundation of his character is the fault line which brings everything down. This Op-Ed is brilliant for the compassion, not the self-indulgence, the writer shows toward himself as an imperfect person. Trump is stuck, like a broken record. A neurotic record, well passed the time when he should have grown-up and stopped building a life on the lies he tells himself. "There is no greater liar than the indignant man," Nietzsche reminds us.
A lie, set so deeply in the foundation of his character is the fault line which brings everything down. This Op-Ed is brilliant for the compassion, not the self-indulgence, the writer shows toward himself as an imperfect person. Trump is stuck, like a broken record. A neurotic record, well passed the time when he should have grown-up and stopped building a life on the lies he tells himself. "There is no greater liar than the indignant man," Nietzsche reminds us.
6
Bravo Prof. Gup for being courageous enough to publicly admit your flaws.
As for your partner Draft Dodger, it's quite simple: Ego Trumps Compassion.
As for your partner Draft Dodger, it's quite simple: Ego Trumps Compassion.
2
My father got education deferments (college/law school) until his last year of eligibility when he left Iowa to get a job in an NYC law firm. His number came up and he drummed up the courage to ask a founding partner of the firm if there was a way to get out of it. The response: "You'll like it in 'Nam. Especially the girls." That senior partner's name was Richard Nixon.
Too naive to look for other avenues of escape, he got on the bus in New York for basic training in North Carolina. He was the whitest and wealthiest of his fellow travelers, who were amused to have an Iowa boy to joke with on the ride down.
In the end, his socioeconomic position DID help him: because of his law degree, he did not see combat and instead defended court martial cases in Saigon. But his barracks got bombed once (killing a buddy) and he got a purple heart along with his bronze star medal for meritorious service. I was born while he was there and he didn't see me until I was 10 months old.
Those were indeed crazy days...completely unjust and unfair crazy days. The bipartisan respect that has been accorded the Khans shows at least we have learned something from that era. Well at least most of us have.
Too naive to look for other avenues of escape, he got on the bus in New York for basic training in North Carolina. He was the whitest and wealthiest of his fellow travelers, who were amused to have an Iowa boy to joke with on the ride down.
In the end, his socioeconomic position DID help him: because of his law degree, he did not see combat and instead defended court martial cases in Saigon. But his barracks got bombed once (killing a buddy) and he got a purple heart along with his bronze star medal for meritorious service. I was born while he was there and he didn't see me until I was 10 months old.
Those were indeed crazy days...completely unjust and unfair crazy days. The bipartisan respect that has been accorded the Khans shows at least we have learned something from that era. Well at least most of us have.
5
Well reasoned and reflective--an incisive look at Trump's inhumanity.
Never trust a man who sits in a gold chair.
Never trust a man who sits in a gold chair.
3
Trump through his comments about McCain and Khan shows that whatever the turbulent times were Trump only cares about himself. he is so clearly a narcissistic, ego maniac. no one matters other than him. lack of soul disqualifies. but as important a leader, and especially the President MUST care about others FIRST. whenever he says that he cares is only to further his own ego, feeling that he is the most important person . he doesn't care for anyone else. not even his daughter who would be just a piece of meat for his pleasure... I guess he has some boundaries. all this just further demonstrates his narcissism.
the Republican leaders need to demonstrate that they have the soul that Trump lacks. they can only do that by clearly repudiating Trump. otherwise they too demonstrate that they only care for themselves and not us.
the Republican leaders need to demonstrate that they have the soul that Trump lacks. they can only do that by clearly repudiating Trump. otherwise they too demonstrate that they only care for themselves and not us.
2
They won't so the writing should be on the wall. With the GOP, it's never the people.
Yeah, I don't care how sorry and earnest you are, Mr. Gup. You are just another in a long list of privileged white boys who made other people pay the ultimate price.
Own your shame. You've earned it.
Own your shame. You've earned it.
4
Try listening to Donovan ' s song Universal Soldier. The decision not to submit to the draft during the Vietnam War was nuanced for many. I personally was spared by a lucky lottery number but do not disrespect those who chose not to go while admiring the sacrifices of those who did.
5
People like Trump and many others of higher intellect, including many journalists, are inclined to think that only ignorant or bigoted people enlist in the military. They are so wrong. Stop patronizing veterans with endless stories about PTSD and homelessness. The best way to honor us is to recognize what veterans have achieved in private life.
.
.
2
Bring back the draft . . . compulsory conscription.
Why?
A few years ago as an invited guest of the WWII 141st Infantry Regiment, 36th Infantry Division, at their annual reunion, held at Denver, Colorado, I had the privilege of listen to a member of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team tell us why the attack on Pearl Harbor had positive results.
Before Pearl Harbor we were a nation divided into enclaves. After the attack, even with forced Japanese Americans interment camos, this veteran told us, "the war brought us together."
This was on the eve of when President Clinton awarded 19 Congressional Medal of Honor medals to Pacific Islanders.
By their request, 443nd recipients requested Ray Wells, representing the 141st/36th be present. Ray accepted.
Why?
A few years ago as an invited guest of the WWII 141st Infantry Regiment, 36th Infantry Division, at their annual reunion, held at Denver, Colorado, I had the privilege of listen to a member of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team tell us why the attack on Pearl Harbor had positive results.
Before Pearl Harbor we were a nation divided into enclaves. After the attack, even with forced Japanese Americans interment camos, this veteran told us, "the war brought us together."
This was on the eve of when President Clinton awarded 19 Congressional Medal of Honor medals to Pacific Islanders.
By their request, 443nd recipients requested Ray Wells, representing the 141st/36th be present. Ray accepted.
1
Thank you, Professor Gup for writing such a thoughtful and thought provoking article. The last paragraph is the best argument for not electing Mr. Trump.
2
What bothers me about all of this is that Donald Trump does not know the meaning of "sacrifice." It means that you give up something for nothing in return. Hard work in building your business, employing "tens of thousands" of people to further your companies' profits is not sacrifice because you are benefitting from it. The "ultimate sacrifice" means that you lose something--something very big-- for no return. The giving of one's life, or years in captivity, or even years of service to the military, peace corps, or VISTA, etc. when you could be working to feather your own nest is what I consider to be "sacrifice."
4
Trump is a hypocritical buffoon who shouldn't be President, but he avoided the draft the same way that Bill Clinton and other prominent democrats did. And don't even get me started on Hillary and her hawkish ambitions!
Instead of wasting ink on this irrelevant issue and stirring up old wounds, please focus on the issues that actually matter to the current US population.
Instead of wasting ink on this irrelevant issue and stirring up old wounds, please focus on the issues that actually matter to the current US population.
1
In order to honor and respect the lives of soldiers who died in combat, is it necessary to state that they died defending their country? Do you genuinely believe that the United States was under threat in 1968 or 2004 or each of the many other years when our soldiers died? And do you believe the decision made by the president in each case and ratified in some way by the congress and by extension the people was honest and wise? And that that decision genuinely made America and the world safer?
If you can answer each of those questions "yes", you're still not done: it's your responsibility to do the work of becoming informed about those wars, and most important becoming informed about future wars. If you blindly approve of or consent to wars because men in authority say it's our duty, then in doing so you dishonor the soldiers proactively. And if you reflexively recite that they died protecting us, without testing that belief in the harshest light of available facts, then you dishonor them retroactively.
The moral character and human sacrifice of each dead soldier (and civilian) is independent of the moral character of the war they were sacrificed to. We do them no honor by blindly and blandly painting them all with the uniform label of hero. By all accounts Captain Khan was a hero. Other soldiers were demonstrably and literally baby-killers, some inadvertently and some with great enthusiasm. These are facts, and facing them honestly is the only thing that will make us safer.
If you can answer each of those questions "yes", you're still not done: it's your responsibility to do the work of becoming informed about those wars, and most important becoming informed about future wars. If you blindly approve of or consent to wars because men in authority say it's our duty, then in doing so you dishonor the soldiers proactively. And if you reflexively recite that they died protecting us, without testing that belief in the harshest light of available facts, then you dishonor them retroactively.
The moral character and human sacrifice of each dead soldier (and civilian) is independent of the moral character of the war they were sacrificed to. We do them no honor by blindly and blandly painting them all with the uniform label of hero. By all accounts Captain Khan was a hero. Other soldiers were demonstrably and literally baby-killers, some inadvertently and some with great enthusiasm. These are facts, and facing them honestly is the only thing that will make us safer.
4
Yes, explode the myths.
I loathe Donald Trump and everything he stands for. Regardless, he's not like other draft dodgers because he isn't one. A draft dodger is someone who was drafted and then fled the United States in order to avoid induction. Donald Trump is like Dick Cheney and, yes, Bill Clinton, in that he used lawful means to avoid service in the military. The lawful means unfairly favored the wealthy and the educated, and those who could figure out ways to fail the Army physical. (Read James Fallows excellent essay in The Atlantic on this point.) Still, what makes the Donald reprehensible on this point is the blithe way in which treats his refusal to serve. Oh, he always wanted a Purple Heart, just not enough to actually do what is required to earn one. This is only slightly less reprehensible than Dick Cheney's chicken hawkishness and dismissing his five deferments because he had "other priorities." He's easily sends young men and women to their deaths based on a lie, but when it's his life on the line there's always another "priority." Donald wanted a Purple Heart, but he had other priorities as well. Well, come election day my priority will be to keep him as far from the Oval Office as possible.
2
Over the years, especially from a political perspective, the aura surrounding the relative myth of mistreatment of the returning Vietnam soldier has grown out of proportion.
Despite the fact that many of us were or knew soldiers who were in Vietnam, few of us were or knew soldiers who were spat upon.
However, many college students and others who protested the Vietnam War, and a good number of conscientious objectors across the US, were dealt with rather harshly (e.g., arrests, beatings, deaths, and harassment at alternative-to-service job placements). Ample proof exists in film, photo, and news media archives.
Both Johnson and Nixon as well as their most trusted advisors and administration officials, continued to draft and place young men into Vietnam despite the fact that the war was unjust, immoral, unnecessary, and importantly, a knowing lost effort by those concocting and directing the war efforts.
All told, Johnson and Nixon sent over 58,000 young Americans to their deaths. In addition, 3 million Vietnamese soldiers and civilians were estimated to have been killed.
Additionally, the U.S. sprayed more than 12 million gallons of Agent Orange in Vietnam from 1961 to 1972, causing our soldiers and the Vietnamese serious health issues which continue today – including tumors, birth defects, rashes, psychological symptoms, and cancer.
Importantly, since the end of the war, more than forty thousand Vietnamese have been killed by our unexploded ordnance, or U.X.O.
Sad!
Despite the fact that many of us were or knew soldiers who were in Vietnam, few of us were or knew soldiers who were spat upon.
However, many college students and others who protested the Vietnam War, and a good number of conscientious objectors across the US, were dealt with rather harshly (e.g., arrests, beatings, deaths, and harassment at alternative-to-service job placements). Ample proof exists in film, photo, and news media archives.
Both Johnson and Nixon as well as their most trusted advisors and administration officials, continued to draft and place young men into Vietnam despite the fact that the war was unjust, immoral, unnecessary, and importantly, a knowing lost effort by those concocting and directing the war efforts.
All told, Johnson and Nixon sent over 58,000 young Americans to their deaths. In addition, 3 million Vietnamese soldiers and civilians were estimated to have been killed.
Additionally, the U.S. sprayed more than 12 million gallons of Agent Orange in Vietnam from 1961 to 1972, causing our soldiers and the Vietnamese serious health issues which continue today – including tumors, birth defects, rashes, psychological symptoms, and cancer.
Importantly, since the end of the war, more than forty thousand Vietnamese have been killed by our unexploded ordnance, or U.X.O.
Sad!
5
Perhaps it's now time that we all move beyond the impossible task of trying to figure out what's really in this man's heart. All we really know today is this: As the potential leader of the free world, Donald J. Trump is in far over his head. As a private citizen, real estate developer and game show host he has occasionally been amusing. As President of the United States, this man would be unequivocally dangerous and destabilizing. If you are still a Trump supporter, it is time for you to take a clear-eyed look at your candidate. There is a tremendous difference between shaking up Washington and haphazardly tearing down the world's entire geopolitical fabric. Mr. Trump has no coherent plan to fix anything, beyond taking a wrecking ball to everything. Trump's poor handling of campaign controversies surrounding veterans are just clear examples of how his massive ego rules every thought. He has spent the past year showing himself to be a man-child, only skilled at knocking things down. There have been no indications that Trump has even the slightest clue, about how to reconstruct all which he clearly intends to destroy.
179
What's the big deal? We have already elected one draft dodging president...Bill Clinton.
12
Reread the article. You seemed to have missed the point entirely.
5
The big deal is that Clinton does not make light of those who served or fail to appreciate and honor those who died or suffered as POW's,
And a draft dodging vice president Joe Biden.
3
This is so very well put. Thank you.
5
Let get one thing straight, there were draft dodgers i.e. Clinton, Bush and Trump are classic examples. Most of my generation were draft resistors. We stood against an illegal war, corrupt politicians and the stupid John Wayne ideology about war.
We invaded a country and killed millions of their inhabitants, all in the name of the Red White and Blue. Wake up America.
We invaded a country and killed millions of their inhabitants, all in the name of the Red White and Blue. Wake up America.
9
We didn't invade South Vietnam or kill millions of its inhabitants. Vietnamese Civilian deaths between 1965 and 1975 are estimated at 587,000, but this includes North Vietnamese as well as South Vietnamese. It includes civilians killed by the Viet Cong, North Vietnamese Army, U.S. forces, and other U.S. allies. It also includes thousands who died after U.S. combat forces had been withdrawn.
1
Yes James, but I believe the point is Trump's comments regarding those that did serve as compared statements made by Clinton and Bush regarding military service juxtaposed to to Trump's record.
There is one kind of Vietnam War draft dodge that rarely gets any notice, the kind used by George W. Bush and many other privileged young men during that time. As a 66 year old veteran I saw first hand how people with political connections and aspirations were allowed to hide from the war while keeping the illusion of serving. The National Guard during the Vietnam era was the hiding place for W and many of his ilk.
10
"But I am dumbstruck that someone who carries the weight of having seen others go off in his stead - friends, neighbors, classmates, teammates - could sneer at those who gave so much to the country."
Why are you dumbstruck by this? You have lived long enough to know that there are all kinds of people in life and that Trump may not be the only "draft dodger" who is not in awe of those who actually went to Vietnam. There are few heroes in America. "Good" people no longer go into politics because the process is too difficult for them and their families so we are left with the Sarah Palins and the Donald Trumps of the nation. Reality television, increased senses of entitlement and the failure of our educational system will give us more, not fewer, of these questionable politicians. I hope I am wrong but I don't think so.
Why are you dumbstruck by this? You have lived long enough to know that there are all kinds of people in life and that Trump may not be the only "draft dodger" who is not in awe of those who actually went to Vietnam. There are few heroes in America. "Good" people no longer go into politics because the process is too difficult for them and their families so we are left with the Sarah Palins and the Donald Trumps of the nation. Reality television, increased senses of entitlement and the failure of our educational system will give us more, not fewer, of these questionable politicians. I hope I am wrong but I don't think so.
6
The politics of the mid 1960s tore my extended family apart. Two of my cousins left and took up residence in Canada because they were peace activists. My aunt and uncle (who had served in WWII) were devastated and that family essentially fell apart. Those cousins are now in their 70s and are both Canadian citizens. I do have respect for the fact that they sacrificed their citizenship for their principals. With other young men during that time (Clinton, Cheney, Trump, etc.) those men were simply gaming the system to avoid the mandatory draft.
5
When my brother was drafted in 1969, my mother asked an attorney when they'd started drafting the only sons of widowed mothers (they'd gotten exemptions in World War II). The attorney replied, "When the sons of the rich stopped serving." Donald Trump is exhibit A, along with the Bush and Romney sons.
4
"For many of us who avoided the draft, the ensuing years brought with them not merely a measure of guilt, but also a deeper appreciation for the sacrifices of those who did serve."
For many others the ensuing years brought confirmation of doing the right thing. It was a totally bogus, immoral war on a par with Iraq. Their reasons may have been partly self regarding--Why risk death for an unjust cause? But also altruistic--Why kill Vietnamese for no good reason?
As for victims of American warmongering--American and Vietnamese--the years brought confirmation that their deaths were a disgusting waste.
As if the Americans were toy soldiers--meaningless pawns--for the American Military-Industrial-Congressional complex--the "Iron Triangle" --decried by Eisenhower--a Republican ex General--hardly a revolutionary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93industrial_complex
For many others the ensuing years brought confirmation of doing the right thing. It was a totally bogus, immoral war on a par with Iraq. Their reasons may have been partly self regarding--Why risk death for an unjust cause? But also altruistic--Why kill Vietnamese for no good reason?
As for victims of American warmongering--American and Vietnamese--the years brought confirmation that their deaths were a disgusting waste.
As if the Americans were toy soldiers--meaningless pawns--for the American Military-Industrial-Congressional complex--the "Iron Triangle" --decried by Eisenhower--a Republican ex General--hardly a revolutionary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93industrial_complex
5
I'm ten months younger. In september of 70 i went in to the induction center not with a note from a bought doctor, but i did tell a story to the army psychiatrist. He was one of the army doctors who let some people off the hook. I have never felt guilty, but i have always been an enthusiastic supporter of they who serve, or who have served. I've had relatives who died in that war. And i always brag about my dad in WW2 and his silver star in north africa.
Of two choices, It's better to praise the ones who have served, than to carry the past on your back.
Of two choices, It's better to praise the ones who have served, than to carry the past on your back.
5
I'm 70, a woman, and was against the Vietnam war. That has nothing to do with my respecting those who serve. It is that respect that Trump is missing that appalls me. Example: "I've always wanted a purple heart" Possessing one without the deed means it isn't yours .
14
Somehow in Democrat minds their cowardice and selfishness is excused if they feel guilty and talk about it with each other. That, and they are still superior to those who fought and those who died. They lambaste Trump but do not mention the cowardice of Biden, Bill Clinton and many other Democrat draft dodgers. Somehow their feelings of guilt and words equate to the suffering and deaths of actual soldiers. Somehow feeling bad about being in a dorm room equates to humping a rifle and sixty pound pack through an oozing paddy in the rain while people shot at you with AK-47's, RPG,s and mortars. In the authors 1969 American dead alone averaged 32 per day. Where were they when we needed them? Who went in their place?
Cowardice is like a bullet. Once it is fired it cannot be called back and the damage it does cannot be wished away or rationalized. The test came and the author and many others failed it. Live with it and die with it. In silence.
Cowardice is like a bullet. Once it is fired it cannot be called back and the damage it does cannot be wished away or rationalized. The test came and the author and many others failed it. Live with it and die with it. In silence.
9
I am not sure what you mean by "Democrat minds" as both sides of our political spectrum have one thing in common...
The wealthy never fight a war, and for the most part, the educated have not fought a war in over 70 years.
Cowardice... or common sense.
Face it - war is outsourced too.
The wealthy never fight a war, and for the most part, the educated have not fought a war in over 70 years.
Cowardice... or common sense.
Face it - war is outsourced too.
2
A couple years older than the writer, I was in the last draft lottery of the Viet Nam war--Nixon had just announced the withdrawal of troops. Still, I found comfort in my lottery number, 206. My number was high enough that I didn't have to run to Canada, or become a Quaker. Instead, I went to college and read great books. I protested against the war, i.e., our government, but not the young men who went to Viet Nam, willingly or otherwise. And like the writer, I mourn those who lost their lives, or are still missing, or returned home with shrapnel in their bodies and souls.
Where does Donald Trump stand on this issue? Well, his issue is always his "self" and the means he takes for self-aggrandizement. What worries me more than Trump are the millions of Americans who see something noble in his shameless self-promotion and complete lack of true patriotism, humility, and gratitude. And would the improbable election of President Trump once again force me to reconsider running to Canada? Trump needs to return to his high tower and keep his black bile to himself. We need to remember who we truly are as a people and recall what the silence of the dead as sacrifice for our well-being and democracy.
Where does Donald Trump stand on this issue? Well, his issue is always his "self" and the means he takes for self-aggrandizement. What worries me more than Trump are the millions of Americans who see something noble in his shameless self-promotion and complete lack of true patriotism, humility, and gratitude. And would the improbable election of President Trump once again force me to reconsider running to Canada? Trump needs to return to his high tower and keep his black bile to himself. We need to remember who we truly are as a people and recall what the silence of the dead as sacrifice for our well-being and democracy.
15
There is nothing "dishonorable" about getting a medical excuse to avoid "service" in Vietnam. This so-called "Vietnam war" was just one huge crime against humanity and even the perpetrators (e.g. McNamara and Johnson), knew that it was.
The "war" itself was "dishonorable," and any American who did not actively fight against the "war" is tainted; I include myself. I didn't put myself at risk to stop the "war." I got a (legit.) IV-F deferment for a serious congenital heart condition. I didn't have to get a fake medical excuse, or emigrate to Canada, or pretend to be gay, or take any other measures to get out of "serving." I'm 65 now, and I feel no guilt for having avoided the draft.
I also have no admiration for, no do I feel any "debt" to, those who did go to Nam, whether voluntarily (e,g, J. Kerry, J.McCain), or for those forced into it. I feel sorry for the latter, but even those draftees could have resisted or emigrated, rather than supporting or participating in mass murder.
The only "heroes" of the Vietnam War are those who put their butts on the line to resist it - say, the Berrigans, or Jane Fonda.
Until we've tried the remaining top-level Vietnam war criminals (Kissinger for starters); and issued formal apologies to Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos; and made massive reparations for their millions of dead and injured - I'll just laugh whenever I see writers like Mr. Gup prating about how we find ourselves "in debt" to Vietnam vets. Our "debt" lies elsewhere.
The "war" itself was "dishonorable," and any American who did not actively fight against the "war" is tainted; I include myself. I didn't put myself at risk to stop the "war." I got a (legit.) IV-F deferment for a serious congenital heart condition. I didn't have to get a fake medical excuse, or emigrate to Canada, or pretend to be gay, or take any other measures to get out of "serving." I'm 65 now, and I feel no guilt for having avoided the draft.
I also have no admiration for, no do I feel any "debt" to, those who did go to Nam, whether voluntarily (e,g, J. Kerry, J.McCain), or for those forced into it. I feel sorry for the latter, but even those draftees could have resisted or emigrated, rather than supporting or participating in mass murder.
The only "heroes" of the Vietnam War are those who put their butts on the line to resist it - say, the Berrigans, or Jane Fonda.
Until we've tried the remaining top-level Vietnam war criminals (Kissinger for starters); and issued formal apologies to Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos; and made massive reparations for their millions of dead and injured - I'll just laugh whenever I see writers like Mr. Gup prating about how we find ourselves "in debt" to Vietnam vets. Our "debt" lies elsewhere.
11
Very sad comment and full lack of understanding and compassion for the young men who did go to Vietnam. Many went as a courageous response to their country's call to duty. The fact that they were betrayed by people like McNamara and Kennedy does not lessen their sacrifice and courage. When I tell people that I served in Vietnam the most comment response is "thank you for your service." Seriously---and it generally chokes me up because it is sincere. I glad that I will never meet you.
7
No one with any sense of honor would expect or want someone like you to feel indebted...
1
You are right - many went believing they were serving an honorable cause, and their sacrifice was honorable because of their belief. However, we needn't pretend that their sacrifice, however honorable, made us safer, or better, in any way. The best way for us to honor their memory is to speak the truth as we know it now, and avoid needless wars.
2
No one in politics is like Trump. Those who support him are being boxed into a more and more indefensible position. Only anger and ignorance remain as consistent themes among pro-Trump voters.
Let them form a new political party, the party of fear and hate.
Let them form a new political party, the party of fear and hate.
5
Given his narcissistic and abusive personality, most would have expected that Donald Trump, like radio personality Rush Limbaugh, would have obtained his deferment for "anal cysts (hemorrhoids)," rather than bone spurs on his heels. Short of Richard Nixon, there has been no more repugnant candidate for public office than Trump. In another article in today's Times, Federal District Court Judge Gonzalo Curiel, whom Trump accused of bias due to his Mexican heritage, dined a motion to dismiss the commercial fraud case against now defunct Trump University. The case will soon go to trial and "Con-Man Don" will very soon be exposed for the fraudster that he is!
5
A capricious and whimsical Trump is coming out with flying colors in the subject of ''offensive self-serving methods''. Evidently, he does not pin his faith in preserving political platitudes, by any stretch of imagination, and revels in ad libs. One can almost hear him say, ''platitudes are for suckers''. The dictum ''first serve, or at least be in reserve, and then deserve'' does not and will not apply to his belligerent behaviors. If only he capitalized his bellicosity by enlisting in the military and by blasting the enemies installations..... One guesses it is like asking for too much.
His continuous display of an olla podrida of emotional upswings are becoming the orders of the day. Plat du jour, Trump! An impetuous Trump may have a high risk of engendering tempestuous times, if he assumes office. It may not be hard to guess how he will comport himself during the debate seasons. That will be a whole bag of wax to watch.
His continuous display of an olla podrida of emotional upswings are becoming the orders of the day. Plat du jour, Trump! An impetuous Trump may have a high risk of engendering tempestuous times, if he assumes office. It may not be hard to guess how he will comport himself during the debate seasons. That will be a whole bag of wax to watch.
1
I respect their service but I do not feel guilty. The war was wrong and it was a mistake. It's people like Henry Kissinger who should feel guilty and don't. Glorifying military service is a strange thing, particularly in the age that followed the war to end all wars. Our fathers fought so that we would not have to. War is hell. And incidentally, I have spent much of my life serving others as a mental health worker and a nurse.
5
The older Khan allowed himself - and ultimately the sacrifice of his son - to be used for politics by the Democrats. (I would be astonished if he wrote the speach himself). So he should not complain that he now experiences the dirty side of politics.
He got his 10 minutes of fame, an now, he gets what he dealt for. Maybe he should have considered the emotional hardship for his wife before.
He got his 10 minutes of fame, an now, he gets what he dealt for. Maybe he should have considered the emotional hardship for his wife before.
6
Mr. Cup fails to mention that U.S. involvement in Vietnan turned out to be a really bad idea. Many young people knew this at the time. These factors make the issue of draft avoidance more complex than in a so called "just" war.
1
I always remember the "All in the Family" episode where Mike's draft-dodger friend comes for Thanksgiving along with Archie's friend, the father of a Gold Star recipient. As the truth about the friend emerges, Archie explodes but exposes his true feelings about futility of the war by saying, "I don't want to talk about that damn war anymore." The Gold Star father restores calm and rejects Archie's harsh judgement of the friend by saying his son did what he had to do and Mike's friend did what he thought he had to do and that he's glad to be able to sit down for Thanksgiving with him. In my opinion, one of the best and most powerful scenes ever on TV. The truth is that no one has the right to judge anyone who was faced with going off to that futile war, period.
8
Almost no one wants to die, and particularly, almost no one wants to die young. I do not believe that someone is a coward for not wanting to go to war and possibly die. However, those who saw fit to go to war, into combat, whether they live or die, should be heralded as brave and honorable beyond the norm. Those of us who have never served in the military and have never seen the bloody slosh of combat must hold our free hand over our ever grateful hearts every once and awhile.
1
No argument here on Trump. And I appreciate that the author unblinkingly acknowledges his own efforts to avoid the draft. But in the end, it seems that Trump's actions (and inaction) have served as a palliative for his own.
3
Again this issue highlights that the Donald has merely taken the Republican party on its inexorable journey down further down the road of racism and hatred. For quite some time now, the GOP has ignored any and all factual information and common sense. Trump only adds common decency to the list of values dropped by the GOP.
5
Almost no one wants to die, and particularly, almost no one wants to die young. I do not believe that someone is a coward for not wanting to go to war and possibly die. However, those who saw fit to go to war, into combat, whether they live or die, should be heralded as brave and honorable beyond the norm. Those of us who have never served in the military and have never seen the bloody slosh of combat must hold our free hand over our ever grateful heart every once and awhile.
7
Unfortunately the author seems to repeat the completely indefensible stance that people who die in wars like Vietnam did so for good reason; that they were somehow *defending* us (Americans) or otherwise engaged in a just struggle that *needed* to be engaged in; that they earn our gratitude because they made the world *better* for us. Its ineffably sorrowful that men, women and children perish in unjustifiable wars in vain, but constructing myths to the contrary is not helpful. The true lessons can never be learned by avoiding the truth.
6
The article would have some meaning were it not for the fact that the Vietnam war was the beginning of just about every war the US has initiated since then is for immoral purposes: to confiscate for itself or deny its enemies (sometimes the countries themselves) of oil or other resources, to break apart nations in order to weaken their influence in the world or to just even demonstrate that it is the bully in that region. A handful of soldiers got sucked into the notion that it was the honorable thing to do for God, country or liberty without asking exactly how they relate. Those with money (Trump) or daddy power (Bush) easily got off or assigned some do-nothing post in the US. Trump may not be like other draft dodgers in general but he like all other draft dodgers that have lived in the White House or 'worked' in Congress. He's obviously more suited for the WH than any other candidate since now the US military is threatening a coup against him if he is in the WH. That would be great because it would show the world that the democracy the US wants to export is exactly the same stuff that died in the US long ago.
1
As a World War II veteran who decded to become a conscientious objector after the war, I thank the writer of this piece for his honesty and boldness in confronting this issue. However, I do wish to add that there was a third option between serving in and avoiding the military. It is doing volunteer work with organizations like the Friends, many of who showed great courage as civilian volunteers driving ambulances and medical supplies through war zones.
1
Where would the DNC be without Donald Trump? Imagine arranging an "adversary" so reliably unstable that he masks, diverts and assuages the liberal and other radicalism of the current Democratic party and its candidate (and financiers). Imagine instead if, rather than Trump, an opponent (or two) were of fine moral integrity, of balanced and moderate social and economic positions and enlightened as to business, and also, foreign policy; that could speak fluently at least one strategic foreign language such as Russian, Arabic, German or Chinese? That actually understood banking and finance; science and technology; national budgeting and accounting? Trump obviously is a carefully managed foil. He isn't the danger; his opponent and special interest backers--foreign and domestic--are. Viceland, indeed.
2
"Imagine instead if, rather than Trump, an opponent (or two) were of fine moral integrity, of balanced and moderate social and economic positions and enlightened as to business, and also, foreign policy."
Yeah, I'm sure you have a veritable bottomless pit of candidates in the Republican party that share those traits. Or even, like, 17? Was the primary that long ago?
Yeah, I'm sure you have a veritable bottomless pit of candidates in the Republican party that share those traits. Or even, like, 17? Was the primary that long ago?
The Vietnam war ended while I was I high school, but before that, at 16 and 17 and opposed to the war, I did think, what will I do when the time comes? Thankfully, I never had to decide.
My older brother decided to minimize his risk by joining the Air Force. He was promised a couple of very interesting job opportunities in the corps but ended up loading bombs in Thailand, not a very useful skill for civilian life.
On reflection, a year or two of mandatory national service would've been good for me at a young age: working at a VA hospital, helping build roads or some other needed infrastructure, firefighting, serving impoverished communities, etc. Just a little sacrifice and contribution, by working elsewhere and mixing with a broader population, probably would have brought a more selfless focus to my life, a lasting connection to a national effort. While I think a national, universal draft would deter rash and aggressive decisions, I also often think that required national service, even something minimal, would help unite our country and citizenry to common cause and commitment.
My older brother decided to minimize his risk by joining the Air Force. He was promised a couple of very interesting job opportunities in the corps but ended up loading bombs in Thailand, not a very useful skill for civilian life.
On reflection, a year or two of mandatory national service would've been good for me at a young age: working at a VA hospital, helping build roads or some other needed infrastructure, firefighting, serving impoverished communities, etc. Just a little sacrifice and contribution, by working elsewhere and mixing with a broader population, probably would have brought a more selfless focus to my life, a lasting connection to a national effort. While I think a national, universal draft would deter rash and aggressive decisions, I also often think that required national service, even something minimal, would help unite our country and citizenry to common cause and commitment.
4
I was not drafted but volunteered for four years with the Army Security Agency (ASA) and spent a year in Vietnam s part of an aviation company that did "Radio Research". Not on the front lines which meant that I actually had it pretty good since, actual combat troops aside, we were the most pampered army in history. Why volunteer? I am an Army brat. I've never understood what everyone was so afraid of. A lot of guys joined ASA on the false promise that we were not there. We were and had to be but were undercover. Looking back, the guys I really despised were not the draft dodgers, but those who joined the National Guard because they knew no such until would be sent to Vietnam. The fix was in and the Country Club Republicans used it so their sons could stay safe and get on with their lives and careers. And how they lorded that over the rest of us in Basic Training. Worst yet was the homecoming we got after our service. Discrimination not just from the antiwar people who were a key part of General Giap's grand strategy, but our parents generation, who thought that we were all crazed drug addicts or that we had not fought hard enough to win. And that prejudice continues with the veterans of subsequent wars.
5
"the guys I really despised were not the draft dodgers, but those who joined the National Guard because they knew no such until would be sent to Vietnam."
That would make people, who went AWOL from even that, pretty despicable.
That would make people, who went AWOL from even that, pretty despicable.
1
My father and father-in-law, wool-dyed Republicans, both vowed they would finance their sons' flights into Canada, if they were drafted. Like Mr. Trump, I was excused from suffering because of "academic" deferments. After the lottery, we graduate students at Princeton were herded into Dillan Gym and given an SAT-type test; those who scored above 93 were deferred. I just made it. I've always been bemused that a single point on an arbitrary academic test could make the difference between life and death. Even in the Halls of Ivy, then discrimination was rampant. But I agree, from the perspective of 72, that the draft was the grossest possible example of the classism and racism that still dominate the Greatest Nation In The World.
However, the younger critics of this piece have no idea of the mind-sets of the wartime 1960's, when nonsupport of the war was almost criminalized. In c. 1969 I visited Canada, and went to the US consul's office to inquire about how to emigrate there. The officials rose in their seats at this, and I scuttled away. If you didn't display a flag and publicly identify the war with "patriotism" you were ostracized; this criminality of protesters slowly faded with such phenomena as Living Room War, Walter Cronkite, and C.D.B. Bryan's Friendly Fire. But one can understand the retrospective anger at war protesters too. Driving out the West Point gates c. 2005 I and my son (USMA '07) were screamed at, peace signs pointed at us like weapons.
However, the younger critics of this piece have no idea of the mind-sets of the wartime 1960's, when nonsupport of the war was almost criminalized. In c. 1969 I visited Canada, and went to the US consul's office to inquire about how to emigrate there. The officials rose in their seats at this, and I scuttled away. If you didn't display a flag and publicly identify the war with "patriotism" you were ostracized; this criminality of protesters slowly faded with such phenomena as Living Room War, Walter Cronkite, and C.D.B. Bryan's Friendly Fire. But one can understand the retrospective anger at war protesters too. Driving out the West Point gates c. 2005 I and my son (USMA '07) were screamed at, peace signs pointed at us like weapons.
3
I, too, had to decide to face the draft in 1969, enlist in the Army Reserve, go to Canada or find a friendly doctor. It was a terrible choice since the war was a dreadful mistake, took 50,000+ lives and did little or nothing for the US. The author admits his errors unlike trump and has made amends. Trump belittles the sacrifice of real people and demonstrates a complete lack of empathy for those who served.
2
Trump's disgraceful conduct this week is what the Tea Party ordered and should have expected. They are getting exactly what was sought when Tea Party representatives began many years ago trying to rip down the establishment. Their latest anti-establishment party nominee is a joke, with no credentials, character, or decency. More importantly, this is the best candidate their national constituency can and did choose -- all knowing what a disgrace he really would be to their and the national body politic. Trump's outlandish character is also reflected in what a sore loser he is going to be -- evidenced by his sowing seeds of doubt in the electoral process claiming a rigged election rather than accepting responsibility for his disgusting, despicable, and baseless behavior that the nation's citizens are starting to reject.
4
Mr. Gup,
Being nine years older when my student deferment ran out after I left a brief foray in post college education I got drafted. I went. I protested the war before and after I was inducted but I did my two years. In Panama for 17 months after basic and infantry training, lucky enough to get pulled out of the infantry to a HQ desk job because I had a college degree. So I have always known that for 95 percent of the antiwar protestors their opposition was ingenuous and really boiled down to don't draft me or don't draft my boyfriend. That you found a way to duck out is not so much cowardice as, from the point of view of this veteran, unseemly selfishness. You want to call that careerism, you go ahead and do that. I call it indifference at best to what we owe. I owed it. The bill came. I paid it with two years in the Army. I wasn't in danger though I could have been and I don't compare my experience to the several million sent to Vietnam or to anyone wounded or dead in the war there. But you should really leave this criticism of Trump on this county to those of us who raised a right arm and took an oath to defend and support the U.S. Constitution and the United States of America.
Being nine years older when my student deferment ran out after I left a brief foray in post college education I got drafted. I went. I protested the war before and after I was inducted but I did my two years. In Panama for 17 months after basic and infantry training, lucky enough to get pulled out of the infantry to a HQ desk job because I had a college degree. So I have always known that for 95 percent of the antiwar protestors their opposition was ingenuous and really boiled down to don't draft me or don't draft my boyfriend. That you found a way to duck out is not so much cowardice as, from the point of view of this veteran, unseemly selfishness. You want to call that careerism, you go ahead and do that. I call it indifference at best to what we owe. I owed it. The bill came. I paid it with two years in the Army. I wasn't in danger though I could have been and I don't compare my experience to the several million sent to Vietnam or to anyone wounded or dead in the war there. But you should really leave this criticism of Trump on this county to those of us who raised a right arm and took an oath to defend and support the U.S. Constitution and the United States of America.
4
My story is similar yet different than many I've read here this morning.
Having graduated from UC Berkeley in 1967 and having not taken any action such as joining the National Guard to avoid active duty, being drafted was a given. The Army offered me OCS but I asked how could I lead men in an enterprise about which I had serious reservations. Then they offered me helicopter training which had some appeal but also a high likely of becoming a casualty. Refusing that request haunts me because if I had been any good at it I could have helped guys I met and many they talked about that didn't come home. So I served in anonymity and without distinction but with a respect for those who sacrificed so much without the respect of the general population at the time.
Might I also say I am proud of my son's 4 tours, 2 in Afghanistan and 2 in Iraq. Must say he has received the respect and gratitude, even from people who disagree with the invasion of Iraq, that the Vietnam vets should have but didn't receive.
All that being said, I wish Mr Trump would just grow up. If he did, maybe he'd realize that his enormous ego doesn't qualify him to be commander-in-chief.
Having graduated from UC Berkeley in 1967 and having not taken any action such as joining the National Guard to avoid active duty, being drafted was a given. The Army offered me OCS but I asked how could I lead men in an enterprise about which I had serious reservations. Then they offered me helicopter training which had some appeal but also a high likely of becoming a casualty. Refusing that request haunts me because if I had been any good at it I could have helped guys I met and many they talked about that didn't come home. So I served in anonymity and without distinction but with a respect for those who sacrificed so much without the respect of the general population at the time.
Might I also say I am proud of my son's 4 tours, 2 in Afghanistan and 2 in Iraq. Must say he has received the respect and gratitude, even from people who disagree with the invasion of Iraq, that the Vietnam vets should have but didn't receive.
All that being said, I wish Mr Trump would just grow up. If he did, maybe he'd realize that his enormous ego doesn't qualify him to be commander-in-chief.
4
As someone who avoided Vietnam through a student and then a medical deferment, I have thought long and hard about the years about those who volunteered or were drafted into that war. Do I feel guilt for avoiding service? No, because I can’t bring myself to feel guilty without validating the poor policy choices of the leaders who led America into that quagmire in the first place. But I am indignant as to how poorly the nation treated our returning veterans, and how, even today, many Americans who – like Donald Trump - would neither enlist or allow their children to do so, seem to believe that the patriotic duty to support our troops can be satisfied with a perfunctory “Thank you for your service” and a yellow ribbon decal on the back of the family SUV. Especially when there are so many veterans in our society in need of good medical care and jobs, and often even a roof over their heads.
Guilt serves no useful purpose. If you really want to support the troops, work to see that they get the respect and help that they’ve earned by their sacrifices. And above all, don't support the kind of politician who wraps himself in the flag while disparaging those who have fought and died to protect it.
Guilt serves no useful purpose. If you really want to support the troops, work to see that they get the respect and help that they’ve earned by their sacrifices. And above all, don't support the kind of politician who wraps himself in the flag while disparaging those who have fought and died to protect it.
4
This was a war that JFK got us in and Johnson made it much worse. Nixon was not to blame for this one, but all seem to forget this. Some years back former secretary of defense James McNamara told the American people that the war was a mistake. This is hardly a comfort to those whose loved ones died in that war and to those Vietnamese who died, and now we are told for nothing. Please recall that Bill Clinton never served either. He got deferments for studying in England or whatever. I am not a defender of that Mr T, but Democrats are not without sin in light of the whole thing being a Democrat mistake and Bill being a draft dodger too. And, I for the record I served 6 years in the Army National Guard which is a part of the Army and this was during some of the most deadly years in Viet Nam. My unit was not called up ( as they are now). My draft nimber was 13, but I enlisted in the Army Guard, one week before my draft board informed I was drafted. I was lucky to dodge a bullet. Did I dodge the draft? Some would say so. But, some of my close college friends had every form of bogus reason to not serve at all and they got away with it. They were the draft dodgers. I actually served, Bill Clinton and Trump did zero. Yet Bill was President and Trump thinks he can be. Trump will not be, but Vietnam continues to haunt us, even in this.
1
There are innumerable reasons why young men decided to serve or not. It is up to each one of us to look deeply into our hearts and understand why. I had dear friends who served out of a deep sense of patriotism and duty. Conversely, I had friends who resisted--becoming conscientious objectors, or going to prison--for similar reasons. What we all shared then--and I still feel today--was a sense that we were doing the right thing. And the gravity of our decisions was ever present.
What I don't hear when Trump talks about his draft status is this sense gravitas. He shrugs it off lightly, equating fighting or resisting a war with avoiding venereal disease: “I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world. It is a dangerous world out there. It’s scary, like Vietnam. Sort of like the Vietnam-era. It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave soldier.” His stand was then--and still is today--frivolous, selfish, and immature.
What I don't hear when Trump talks about his draft status is this sense gravitas. He shrugs it off lightly, equating fighting or resisting a war with avoiding venereal disease: “I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world. It is a dangerous world out there. It’s scary, like Vietnam. Sort of like the Vietnam-era. It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave soldier.” His stand was then--and still is today--frivolous, selfish, and immature.
8
What puzzles me is that so many so-called educated people can still say that Vietnam was not important. After all, Vietnam was divided because there was a fear that an important sea lane gate was in danger of being seized by China and Russia. That sea lane is one of the seven major shipping routes that ships used for international trade--the Straits of Moulacca that runs between Indonesia and Singapore. If that would ever shut down, international trade would have some big troubles. And Vietnam is a short distance from those straits. Perhaps college educated people are not so much intelligent as they are shortsighted and selfish.
3
And yet, we lost the VietNam war and those sea lanes somehow remained open. Today we trade with VietNam and Americans travel there as tourists. So, no the sea lanes did not justify that war.
4
My dad was issued one of the last fatherhood permanent deferments the Kennedy administration granted. (At this time, Vietnam had not yet heated up into the major commitment America later made.) He went to college and graduate school -- and felt guilt for not serving.
I am sure one of the reasons he dedicated 25 years of of his work life at a Veterans Administration mental health hospital and still can't stop trying to help vets is because he feels guilty for not serving, despite having a perfectly legal deferment issued by the Draft Board.
I am sure one of the reasons he dedicated 25 years of of his work life at a Veterans Administration mental health hospital and still can't stop trying to help vets is because he feels guilty for not serving, despite having a perfectly legal deferment issued by the Draft Board.
5
Something that is often overlooked re the Vietnam era is that there was a third way for young men to respond to the war - Civilian Public Service. Admittedly, it was not easy to get classified as a conscientious objector, but with considerable effort and commitment, many of us received the I-O classification. Thousands of us served two years in various rolls, often in hospitals and medical centers. We were viewed as either cowards or honorable dissidents, more the former than the latter.
3
My father told me that he would support me in Canada if I got drafted. I told him that if it did happen, I would take the chance that I would be able to use the pilot's license I had polished so many airplanes to pay for at Westchester County Airport, and stay.
It is a challenge for parents to accept that some children may want to risk, and possibly lose, their lives in the military.
It is a challenge for parents to accept that some children may want to risk, and possibly lose, their lives in the military.
1
Manufacturing a self serving lie to the national government was then and now remains a despicable act.
At the height of the Cold War there was no end to national service opportunities across the globe. Unlike Vietnam that wat was won. Enjoy the fruits of that victory, however unearned.
At the height of the Cold War there was no end to national service opportunities across the globe. Unlike Vietnam that wat was won. Enjoy the fruits of that victory, however unearned.
1
My draft number was 3. My story was much the same, though I was actually a conscientious objector. That avenue was precluded, however, because, as a life-long atheist, I couldn't show a "religious" objection. So I sought a psychiatric deferment.
I was a sophomore in college when my number came up, but I did not go on blithely with my life while my friends served, died, and were maimed physically and psychologically. I spent every available minute protesting the war-- shutting down the university, the state government, organizing and participating in marches, the March on Washington, shutting down the federal government. I was busy, but my sacrifice was nothing compared to theirs.
I have one regret that haunts me to this day. My very first vote as an 18 yo was for Richard Nixon, because I thought he might actually end the war as he said, while I thought Humphrey might continue LBJ's ill-conceived policies.
I've never voted for a Republican in any office since and please shoot me if I ever do.
I was a sophomore in college when my number came up, but I did not go on blithely with my life while my friends served, died, and were maimed physically and psychologically. I spent every available minute protesting the war-- shutting down the university, the state government, organizing and participating in marches, the March on Washington, shutting down the federal government. I was busy, but my sacrifice was nothing compared to theirs.
I have one regret that haunts me to this day. My very first vote as an 18 yo was for Richard Nixon, because I thought he might actually end the war as he said, while I thought Humphrey might continue LBJ's ill-conceived policies.
I've never voted for a Republican in any office since and please shoot me if I ever do.
3
This article was a powerful one for me. 48 years ago i began serving a 5 year prison sentence for showing up as ordered to my local Army induction center and telling the officer of the day that I was present and would stay the day, but would refuse to step forward at the end of the day when draftees took the oath and formally became members of the armed forces. I was fortunate that I served most of that sentence on parole.
If I had failed the pre-induction physical, I would have heaved a huge sigh of relief and, I believe, never have acted against the war. I was terrified but felt I could not live with the alternatives. My prison experience was horrific and isolating, but I survived and learned a lot. I saw prisoners murdered (by other prisoners), but I survived. I guess at least some veterans and I have that experience in common.
I have never disrespected veterans (in fact I had several Vietnam veteran friends a bit older than me who corresponded with me while I was in prison), but I do believe that we all must own our decisions, even if, in retrospect and with hindsight, we may have chosen differently. Frankly, I don't know what I would do if I was ever in the same situation. I imagine that many veterans are also unsure. If Trump is elected, maybe I will be put to a similar test. But I have become convinced that cowardice and heroism are not simple categories.
If I had failed the pre-induction physical, I would have heaved a huge sigh of relief and, I believe, never have acted against the war. I was terrified but felt I could not live with the alternatives. My prison experience was horrific and isolating, but I survived and learned a lot. I saw prisoners murdered (by other prisoners), but I survived. I guess at least some veterans and I have that experience in common.
I have never disrespected veterans (in fact I had several Vietnam veteran friends a bit older than me who corresponded with me while I was in prison), but I do believe that we all must own our decisions, even if, in retrospect and with hindsight, we may have chosen differently. Frankly, I don't know what I would do if I was ever in the same situation. I imagine that many veterans are also unsure. If Trump is elected, maybe I will be put to a similar test. But I have become convinced that cowardice and heroism are not simple categories.
75
You were being asked to perform some national service as a small price in exchange for American citizenship. At this height of the Cold War, won by others, there was no end to service opportunities all across the globe. Why not state regrets and move on, sir.
3
I served four years, 67 - 71. I emerged relatively undamaged. It made me the man I became. The GI bill got me through college and most of law school. I was not a patriot or a hero. I was a kid without direction who was looking for adventure and looking to prove himself as a man. I got wiser and smarter over those four years. I grew up. I developed skills and self-confidence. I wouldn't do anything different if I had the choice. I do not disdain those who avoided service due to physical cowardice (though I think that was the reason for most - but not all - of them), but I do disdain chicken hawks like Trump and Cheney who drape themselves in a flag they did not earn, feign adoration for those who did or do serve, and seek only self-aggrandizement (they had "better things to do"). And, please, don't bother thanking me for my service. I didn't do it for you.
When your country called, you hid from her... How can you expect those who have answered when summoned to have any interest in whatever excuses you might have to offer?
When I went for my pre-induction physical in 1969, I had every expectation of being drafted. At my mother's insistence, I took a letter from an orthopedist who had treated me as a child. All my life I dealt with foot pain, but I never imagined it would keep me out of the draft. To my utter surprise, the letter was reviewed, and after a subsequent examination by a doctor at the induction center, I was handed a 1-Y deferment and sent on my way. I can't deny being delighted with my good fortune, but I also was delighted that I would not have to struggle with the choice of participating in a war that seemed both pointless and wrong by that time. One lesson my generation took from WWII was that following orders was no excuse for violating basic principals of decency. Vietnam confronted our nation with a difficult dilemma in that regard. Was it a war we needed to fight or a useless exercise in belligerence? Both those who served and those who didn't were often responding to the dictates of conscience. It seems long past time to stop judging people based which of those difficult choices they made. That doesn't excuse Mr. Trumps recent comments, but his deferments are water long under the bridge.
42
I don't know how to respect those young men and women who were killed in Vietnam while acknowledging that their deaths (sacrifices) were useless. I, too, was a young college student during the time and I heard repeatedly that the soldiers were dying for my freedom. Well, we lost that war and my freedom was not better or worse for the sacrifice. As with those who died in Iraq, even those who served and suffered great physical and mental harm, I am a loss as to what to say. Young people must find another way to serve their country, if that is their passion.
19
Freeing our POWs, doing what turned out to be necessary to this end, does not constitute useless service sir.
Then there were those like my neighbor Daryl a young African American man who played with us younger kids. I was too young to remember Vietnam completely, but I do remember Daryl. I remember him going missing from view, and then returning, different. A spacey, but still kind young man who never seemed to be able to get it together and died way too young, I think a victim of drug addiction. Life in the ghetto. Not everyone was able to avail themselves of doctors notes. Trump damages the memory, not only of Mr Kahn's son, but of every son who went off to war every time he opens his mouth and says anything other than thank you for your service.
24
In the course of the Vietnam War, about 15.4 million men received deferments, were exempted or disqualified. Polifact.
And what about the 15.4 million who avoided the draft?
And what about the 15.4 million who avoided the draft?
1
Thank you.
Something I feel guilty about all these years later.
An African American . . . a Black guy . . . my friend, wanted to talk. Another friend . . . his friend . . . was due to leave for The World on the Freedom Bird. Problem was his friend was hooked on Smack . . . heroin.
My friend asked me what he should do. Turn him in? Let him go?
To my sorrow I advised my friend to let him go. I advised my friend wrong.
Something I feel guilty about all these years later.
An African American . . . a Black guy . . . my friend, wanted to talk. Another friend . . . his friend . . . was due to leave for The World on the Freedom Bird. Problem was his friend was hooked on Smack . . . heroin.
My friend asked me what he should do. Turn him in? Let him go?
To my sorrow I advised my friend to let him go. I advised my friend wrong.
Let's call things what they are here. In truth, the Clintons' exploitation of the Khan family is just as hypocritical as Trump's attacks, especially in light of Bill's equally flagrant draft dodging.
13
First, Bill is not running for President.
Second, the Khans were presented as an illustration of just how cruel, illegal, and just plain stupid Trump's talk of blanket exclusions based on religion or nationality are. Nothing hypocritical there.
Trump's attacks are not hypocritical either, unless he only makes them to play to his base and not out of belief--hard to say which would be worse.
The GOP's use of parents of soldiers at their convention was far more inflammatory and, worse, completely false. Yet the Democrats are not attacking them. We assume they are simply mislead into believing that it was the Secretary of State who decided whether to increase security in Benghazi, rather than lower level officials forced to allot resources limited by Congressional efforts to "starve the beast."
Second, the Khans were presented as an illustration of just how cruel, illegal, and just plain stupid Trump's talk of blanket exclusions based on religion or nationality are. Nothing hypocritical there.
Trump's attacks are not hypocritical either, unless he only makes them to play to his base and not out of belief--hard to say which would be worse.
The GOP's use of parents of soldiers at their convention was far more inflammatory and, worse, completely false. Yet the Democrats are not attacking them. We assume they are simply mislead into believing that it was the Secretary of State who decided whether to increase security in Benghazi, rather than lower level officials forced to allot resources limited by Congressional efforts to "starve the beast."
5
Everyone who maneuvered to avoid the draft is equally guilty. But not everyone who maneuvered to avoid the draft has gone out of their way to denigrate the Khan family's sacrifice.
Bill Clinton (and George W. Bush, Dick Chaney and his fellow neocons) deserves criticism for skipping their civic duty. But Mr. Trump has earned a special place in hell for his suggestion that his sacrifice in building his business career is on a par with the sacrifices of a family that lost their son fighting for the United States.
If Trump and his army of apologists had any sense, they would shut up. If they had any self-awareness, they would immediately apologize and disappear from public life.
There's not much danger of that happening, however. The will to power, especially among Republicans, is too strong. So they resort to their old standby of attacking the legitimacy of their opponents. Donald Trump is proving that every negative stereotype of the modern Republican Party is true, and so are a bunch more that most of us couldn't have imagined. When this is finished, the Republican Party will be finished, too.
Bill Clinton (and George W. Bush, Dick Chaney and his fellow neocons) deserves criticism for skipping their civic duty. But Mr. Trump has earned a special place in hell for his suggestion that his sacrifice in building his business career is on a par with the sacrifices of a family that lost their son fighting for the United States.
If Trump and his army of apologists had any sense, they would shut up. If they had any self-awareness, they would immediately apologize and disappear from public life.
There's not much danger of that happening, however. The will to power, especially among Republicans, is too strong. So they resort to their old standby of attacking the legitimacy of their opponents. Donald Trump is proving that every negative stereotype of the modern Republican Party is true, and so are a bunch more that most of us couldn't have imagined. When this is finished, the Republican Party will be finished, too.
4
In truth--no. There is a recognition on the Clintons' part that these issues are complex and need to have all their aspects exposed--that Musljm immigrants prior to the shameless demonization they experienced in the past two decades would believe enough in the American Dream to risk their son to such a false, odious war shows why difficult decisions need be in the bands of those who can actually grasp and appreciate the ironies of history.
This simple-minded cynicism missed the point being made by the speaker and those who asked him to tell his heart-breaking story. Yours is a tune being sung by someone with a tin ear, and unfortunately you are far from alone.
This simple-minded cynicism missed the point being made by the speaker and those who asked him to tell his heart-breaking story. Yours is a tune being sung by someone with a tin ear, and unfortunately you are far from alone.
3
Somehow it doesn't seem right that Trump is at the core of this discussion between soldiers, resisters and deferments - he does not seem part of a generation who lived through such difficult and turbulent times. As a female, my guilt and shame is from failing to appreciate the young soldiers, my friends and fellow boomer generation, who ended up in Vietnam by the 'luck of the draw' or call to duty, while I focused only on why we shouldn't be there. Thank you deeply to those who lost their lives and who sacrificed their youth, and who returned to an ungrateful nation. Trump has evaded not only the draft, but a whole period of history seared in the American psyche. How could he possibly represent us?
24
When I voted for LBJ in 1964 he stated that "Asian boys will fight an Asian war." When he committed American forces to Vietnam in 1965 he made a major mistake. Senator Fulbright criticized his decision. I did not wish to go to Vietnam and engage myself in a civil war that had its roots in French colonialism. The American government made two strategic blunders- Vietnam and Iraq. Many people including many Americans died as a result of these terrible decisions. Trump criticized George W's stupid decision to invade Iraq. It is his only worthwhile accomplishment during this bleak campaign. Congress should investigate the decision by the executive branch to invade Iraq.
31
wasn't that "not"?
The irony of tRump criticizing GW's decision to go to war is that Bush didn't come to this himself: his neocon advisors did and pushed him in that direction.
What is particularly worrisome about a tRump presidency is that he is clearly a delegator, and has brushed off his lack of geopolitical knowledge by saying he will surround himself with the best advisors--supposedly all Washington outsiders. So which direction will he be pushed? Will he listen to the loudest voices in the room? Will he ask his family? Will he use his supposedly infallible gut? Will he snub good advice from those that disagree or criticize him? He's obviously impervious to the advice of his current handlers. What makes anyone think he will actually follow advice while in office?
A president needs to be decisive, but he or she shouldn't allow their decision-making to fall prey to a particular philosophy, neocon or other. Or reject advice for petty reasons or just plain stubbornness. This is why so many are saying he is psychologically unfit for the job.
What is particularly worrisome about a tRump presidency is that he is clearly a delegator, and has brushed off his lack of geopolitical knowledge by saying he will surround himself with the best advisors--supposedly all Washington outsiders. So which direction will he be pushed? Will he listen to the loudest voices in the room? Will he ask his family? Will he use his supposedly infallible gut? Will he snub good advice from those that disagree or criticize him? He's obviously impervious to the advice of his current handlers. What makes anyone think he will actually follow advice while in office?
A president needs to be decisive, but he or she shouldn't allow their decision-making to fall prey to a particular philosophy, neocon or other. Or reject advice for petty reasons or just plain stubbornness. This is why so many are saying he is psychologically unfit for the job.
Trump perseverates about the Khan family and how the Republican establishment is against him at the expense of discussing issues that could help his campaign. It looks like Mr. Khans' criticism shook Trump to the core, such as it is.
12
I missed the draft by a mere months, with Nixon rescinding it ahead of my 18th birthday. But this doesn't mean I don't understand Vietnam or the period. I grew up in the military; a military "brat," and lived in parts of Japan, Philippines and S. Korea during that period, all while my Father did seemingly endless tours there and elsewhere. I can fully appreciate American civilians reluctance to be drafted into that "conflict." Remember...it was never declared a war.
And therein lies the rub. To all participants it was quickly obvious that it was a political action, one where fearful old men sent young and underprivileged off to serve and fight. Not all were underprivileged, but all were young. Volunteering in the "Tachi" avac hospitals (air-base in western Tokyo area) quickly disabused me of any notions of it being a "fair and equitable" conflict, as defined by our propaganda.
So where am I going with all this? A remark by the writer stands out..
"..the ability of so much of the nation to carry on as if there were no war."
And exactly what do you think is going on, today, in Afganistan? Or Iraq? Or sundry other areas of "conflict." It seems, as a people, we haven't learned a thing between the Vietnam era and now. We're still jingoistic. We're still wrapped in patriotic corporate largess, greed and self-interest. And we still ignore it, while giving lip-service to assuage our guilt to those who actually serve.
John~
American Net'Zen
And therein lies the rub. To all participants it was quickly obvious that it was a political action, one where fearful old men sent young and underprivileged off to serve and fight. Not all were underprivileged, but all were young. Volunteering in the "Tachi" avac hospitals (air-base in western Tokyo area) quickly disabused me of any notions of it being a "fair and equitable" conflict, as defined by our propaganda.
So where am I going with all this? A remark by the writer stands out..
"..the ability of so much of the nation to carry on as if there were no war."
And exactly what do you think is going on, today, in Afganistan? Or Iraq? Or sundry other areas of "conflict." It seems, as a people, we haven't learned a thing between the Vietnam era and now. We're still jingoistic. We're still wrapped in patriotic corporate largess, greed and self-interest. And we still ignore it, while giving lip-service to assuage our guilt to those who actually serve.
John~
American Net'Zen
15
Let's get something straight, in most cases, in most cases service to our nation is left to the middle to lower class; period. There are odd times that some from the elite class serve. Several after 911 because of the patriotism running rampant. However, under normal circumstances it is those down below that carry the war tasks of this great nation on their backs. So go get your latte and Wall Street Journal and relax we got you back!!!
5
"We owe the country something of ourselves." Yes, what each of us owes our country (and which you, Trump and McCain, as well as millions of Germans) abysmally failed to do, is to identify evil, and stand up against it.
Indeed, you have every reason to feel ashamed, but not over your failure to "serve" (evil), but your craven failure to oppose evil.
Even now, at whatever age you might be, you fail to get it.
Indeed, you have every reason to feel ashamed, but not over your failure to "serve" (evil), but your craven failure to oppose evil.
Even now, at whatever age you might be, you fail to get it.
10
I love the way that Capt. Humayaun Khan's name is almost a literary device. Donald Trump has no appreciation and respect for Capt. Humayaun Khan's ultimate sacrifice, and indeed, Trump couldn't care less about the effects of his bizarre bluster on "human kind."
15
An excellent article that puts into perspective just how fundamentally detached and self serving Trump really is. I find it very troubling that Trump's followers cannot see him for what he is or worse than that they agree with all he says. Trump's supporters remind me of the South in the early days of the Civil Rights movement in which most Southerners could not come to grips with the idea that " Separate but equal" was not equal in any sense of the imagination for the Afro Americans of the South. This current group of Trump loyalists seem to see the world in only one way and it's the us and them mentality. I'm afraid that the wound that Trump has opened will take a long time to heal even if he doesn't make it into the Oval Office.
8
In the course of the Vietnam War, about 15.4 million men received deferments, were exempted or disqualified. Polifact.
I guess you would say that they (15.4 million men) were also fundamentally detached and self-serving because the avoided the draft for a highly unpopular war.
I guess you would say that they (15.4 million men) were also fundamentally detached and self-serving because the avoided the draft for a highly unpopular war.
1
Well said, Ted. I am a Viet Nam veteran that was drafted right after college. I didn't have the maturity to question the right or wrong of it, but I went when my country called. I served in the infantry in Viet Nam and Cambodia. When I came home, but first civilian I spoke to was a hari krishna volunteer that handed me a pamphlet and called me a baby killer. This was right after being discharged in San Fran. I reflected a lot on what I had done when called. I realized it was wrong for our country to intercede. I entered public service in the environmental field. I met "Barry Freed" as he argued against winter navigation in the Great Lakes. I learned later he was actually Abby Hoffman, in hiding after going to Canada. I saw him at a conference regarding Great Lakes United. We talked. He wasn't self serving. I don't condone his escape to Canada, but do respect his right to disagree with our country's actions. I truly think if Abby were alive today, I'd write his name in on the ballot before I could seven think of voting for Donald.
9
Emigration is a much more honorable act than fabricating a lie to the national government. Interesting anecdote.
"He seems to have escaped the turmoil of the 1960s and ’70s not merely unscathed, but untouched by humanity.".....
Both him and his billionaire greed-is-good ilk. Consequence? Amorality, suck the society's resources to the max, take and hide the money overseas (recall the news bit around 2011 that 37 trillion dollars are missing from the US economy). smells like Ayn Rands "Atlas Shrugged" in the works except this Atlas bribed the US government and the politicians (Republicans for the most part) to grow to its namesake and Trump is so apropose and representative.
Both him and his billionaire greed-is-good ilk. Consequence? Amorality, suck the society's resources to the max, take and hide the money overseas (recall the news bit around 2011 that 37 trillion dollars are missing from the US economy). smells like Ayn Rands "Atlas Shrugged" in the works except this Atlas bribed the US government and the politicians (Republicans for the most part) to grow to its namesake and Trump is so apropose and representative.
7
I, like Mr. Gup, was avoided the draft, but only because I was a father and a law student. That said, I did receive an appointment to the United States Naval Academy from U.S. Senator, High Scott, but was unable to pass the physical. As a result I enrolled in college in 1963, later got married and had a son in 1968. But when I see all this clap-trap about Treasonous Trump and his avoidance of the draft, raised in combination with Mr. Khan's pointing out that Old Treasonous sacrificed nothing, I'm reminded of one "draft avoider" who, while avoiding military service, did sacrifice everything, and in so doing taught America a very valuable lesson about human decency and sacrifice. Of course, I referring to the late Muhammed Ali. I know military service and jury duty are the two most significant ways a civilian can serve America, but in Ali's case his refusal to serve was, in it's own way, as significant a service to America as that given by those who did. And in neither case, that of the John McCain's of America, and that of Muhammed Ali, does Treasonous Trump measure up. I really do wish Ali were alive today, so he could share with us his view of Old Treasonous, as well as his view of the sacrifice made by Capt. Khan and his family. We are all surely losing out.
9
I remember well the 1969 night of the draft lottery. My number was my age, 20. I was healthy, I was to graduate in 1971 and be "grabbed" into the Army. I remember the morning after the lottery that it was the women on campus that would rush up and ask me what number I received. When I told them, many laughed in that I was a "loser" and not the "winner" of the lottery. I wonder today whether these baby-boomer women would vote for the "winner", Donald Trump, the guy who, like the wealthy , could find a friendly MD to give them a medical profile so they could continue their careers. Mr. Trump, like Bill Clinton, are not able to truely share what was going on in their head when they were vulnerable to going to war.
2
In the course of the Vietnam War, about 15.4 million men received deferments, were exempted or disqualified. Politfact.
And how would you have felt if you draft number was 196 and had 'won' the lottery?
And how would you have felt if you draft number was 196 and had 'won' the lottery?
1
When presented with an admirer's Purple Heart, Trump proclaimed he got it the easy way. His pride in scamming any and all institutions rests on his being able to game the system. He is equally proud of not being bothered by work that requires thought such as, say, reading. The fortune cookie Rep. candidate, soulless, thoughtless, and humorless has even laid the groundwork for an easy defeat.
3
Dude,
OK, you had the money, connections, sophistication, whatever to "slip, slide away." It was a lousy war for nothing, run by idiot SecDOD, generals/admirals. I know - we all hated them. I guess these 40-years on I can't blame you. In fact, when I got back from my "13-month all expense paid vacation" I told anyone/everyone that'd listen to not go.
I still have admiration for the resisters who stood up, said no, and mostly went to jail. That's guts. Even gutsier were the true conscientious objectors who served as medics. That's bravery. Even today, I'd have a hard time going to war for oil or whatever on the other side of the world. Here, close to home, clear and present danger - yep, count me in.
As for the Chump, if you haven' figured out by now that he'll say anything, anywhere for TV ratings, there's no hope for you. Still a lousy actor/performer. For him to suggest (as he did once) that his "Viet Nam was learning to deal with all those women?" As we used to say long ago, "Gag me with a spoon!"
I clearly remember in my crew of 8 (a total of 12 with dead, wounded, and replacements), there wasn't a rich guy. We all were from hick places, small towns, ghettos, etc. Got to wonder why the well off, better educated, middle to upper-class folks weren't around.
Forty+ years gone, I won't judge you. It was a lost time and generation. But for the Chump to denigrate those who gave their son's, brother's, father's, husband's lives? You stink Donny boy. You're vile!
OK, you had the money, connections, sophistication, whatever to "slip, slide away." It was a lousy war for nothing, run by idiot SecDOD, generals/admirals. I know - we all hated them. I guess these 40-years on I can't blame you. In fact, when I got back from my "13-month all expense paid vacation" I told anyone/everyone that'd listen to not go.
I still have admiration for the resisters who stood up, said no, and mostly went to jail. That's guts. Even gutsier were the true conscientious objectors who served as medics. That's bravery. Even today, I'd have a hard time going to war for oil or whatever on the other side of the world. Here, close to home, clear and present danger - yep, count me in.
As for the Chump, if you haven' figured out by now that he'll say anything, anywhere for TV ratings, there's no hope for you. Still a lousy actor/performer. For him to suggest (as he did once) that his "Viet Nam was learning to deal with all those women?" As we used to say long ago, "Gag me with a spoon!"
I clearly remember in my crew of 8 (a total of 12 with dead, wounded, and replacements), there wasn't a rich guy. We all were from hick places, small towns, ghettos, etc. Got to wonder why the well off, better educated, middle to upper-class folks weren't around.
Forty+ years gone, I won't judge you. It was a lost time and generation. But for the Chump to denigrate those who gave their son's, brother's, father's, husband's lives? You stink Donny boy. You're vile!
6
Trump has emerged as the poster child of extreme wealth as disease. It's hard to imagine how else anyone becomes so monstrously deformed by compulsive malevolence and debilitated by mindless cruelty and a toxic insufficiency of basic empathy.
No doubt there's a surfeit of bilious billionaires who suffer similar wealth issues that degrade the scant remnants of humanity yet unscathed by their god status but few approach Trump's perverse exhibitionism replete with shameless displays of horrific ulcerated pockmarks left by flesh-eating greed and viral narcissism.
Like Ebola and Zika, extreme wealth has rapidly mutated into a catastrophic public health menace with Trump serving as Typhoid Mary. Left untreated, extreme wealth is always fatal though some victims survive early onset and function well despite ice cold blood and dead hearts.
The most severe symptoms of extreme wealth are mental and Trump is an ideal case study. Typically those afflicted experience disassociated verbalization characterized by speech totally uninformed by any thought process and devoid of truth, context and reason. Limited vocabulary, usually superlatives, pronouns and epithets indicate disease progression.
Extreme wealth is difficult to treat and there's no cure. Prevention is the only known remedy.
No doubt there's a surfeit of bilious billionaires who suffer similar wealth issues that degrade the scant remnants of humanity yet unscathed by their god status but few approach Trump's perverse exhibitionism replete with shameless displays of horrific ulcerated pockmarks left by flesh-eating greed and viral narcissism.
Like Ebola and Zika, extreme wealth has rapidly mutated into a catastrophic public health menace with Trump serving as Typhoid Mary. Left untreated, extreme wealth is always fatal though some victims survive early onset and function well despite ice cold blood and dead hearts.
The most severe symptoms of extreme wealth are mental and Trump is an ideal case study. Typically those afflicted experience disassociated verbalization characterized by speech totally uninformed by any thought process and devoid of truth, context and reason. Limited vocabulary, usually superlatives, pronouns and epithets indicate disease progression.
Extreme wealth is difficult to treat and there's no cure. Prevention is the only known remedy.
8
My husband could have obtained a deferment, but, honorable to a fault, enlisted instead in 1968. Although suffering from increasing disability due to his service, he harbors no ill-will towards those whose choices were different--so long as they are not hypocrites. He reserves his deepest scorn for "chickenhawks" like Dick Cheney, et al.
However, like the author, we find the scope of Trump's arrogance and deceit combined with his disrespect of those who did serve to be truly breathtaking.
However, like the author, we find the scope of Trump's arrogance and deceit combined with his disrespect of those who did serve to be truly breathtaking.
14
Please keep this in the front of your minds in November. Seldom has the 'right to vote' been more critical to community well being. Breathtaking, indeed. My best to your husband.
No. Nobody owes Vietnam vets (or other vets) anything. They did their duty -- which is to say they followed the orders of the popularly-elected officials of the day. No more and no less.
Were there individual acts of heroism and bravery? Surely. But following an order to fight in a war is NOT heroism in itself.
John McCain isn't a hero because he was captured; he's not a hero simply because he served. For me, his heroism was refusing to be released before others, simply as a political ploy of his enemies.
We only owe soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines what we owe any other human being: our compassion, our respect, our love, and our kindness.
Were there individual acts of heroism and bravery? Surely. But following an order to fight in a war is NOT heroism in itself.
John McCain isn't a hero because he was captured; he's not a hero simply because he served. For me, his heroism was refusing to be released before others, simply as a political ploy of his enemies.
We only owe soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines what we owe any other human being: our compassion, our respect, our love, and our kindness.
8
Finny: Clearly you have never served your country, or you could not make such an ignorant comment. You are right; most service members do not perform overt acts of heroism, they mostly just carry out the duties of their positions. As a proud former Captain in the Air Force, I would feel somewhat abashed to be thanked for the 3 years I spent on Edwards Air Force Base, which was a very peaceful and happy experience. But even though I had absolutely no desire to be placed into a war zone, what astonished me was the fact that, once I took those vows, I was completely willing to give my life if it would mean my country - and especially - one of those with whom I served was spared. That is a feeling you can only understand if you have been in service or law enforcement, or some other endeavor that potentially places you in harm's way for the protection of others. And that is what we should be thankful for: the fact that someone else is willing to do what you are not.
But following an order to fight in a war is NOT heroism in itself.
in fact, its a crime if th war is illegal
all those who fought in nam were war crims, period
as were th leaders who suckered you there
You are right when you say they did their duty! And to those that did not do their duty?
Clearly by the comments,this column has caused many Of us to look at our psychological healed wounds and scars brought on by the interplay of the Vietnam War and the struggles of our personal position of racial and class status. We are examining our lives and decisions and the impact on our own course and that of our neighbors and strangers we meet. In 2006 I told my young classmates in a social work program that I had wished so much that another generation would not have to face war. I said that the War Against Terror, a war with no borders or last hill to capture, would influence their life work. Unfortunately Mr. Trump does not appear to understand the gravitas surrounding his word or his actions. How can he be 70 years old?
9
Not everyone gets wiser as they grow older. For that, you have to have enough humility to know that you are NOT always the smartest person in the room, and the willingness to learn from others.
2
Chronologically 70, emotionally 7, physically 99.
1
When I was 17 years old I heard my father tell about the dozen or so of his comrades and friends killed when a barracks building was bombed in Vietnam. He struggled to hold back his tears. He died without ever forgetting, not even for a day, how lucky he was. You see, my dad lived in those barracks during his service in Southeast Asia. He had risen from sleep to visit the bathroom on the night of the bombing and was walking back to his bed when they fell.
I do not know whether my dad's fellow airmen received Purple Hearts. My dad's heart and soul were wounded grievously in Vietnam. He was lucky to avoid the bullets and explosions, the spikes and the diseases.
I never served, but I know no one wants a Purple Heart.
I do not know whether my dad's fellow airmen received Purple Hearts. My dad's heart and soul were wounded grievously in Vietnam. He was lucky to avoid the bullets and explosions, the spikes and the diseases.
I never served, but I know no one wants a Purple Heart.
14
Mr. Gup's column, part commentary, part confession, is the first I have seen in which someone actually admits to a combination of cowardice and careerism in avoiding military service during the Vietnam era. It is unfortunate, however, that simply because of age, he considers himself past the internal debate of it all. As one who volunteered for the military during that time, I many times wondered how those who avoided military service, by luck of the draw or especially by subterfuge, regarded themselves as others went in their place. I congratulate, Mr. Gup, however, for at least recognizing the responsibility of saluting those who did serve. It wasn't the best of times, but many of us wore our uniforms with pride despite the prevailing attitudes of the time.
8
My father, a career test pilot in the USAF, was shot down and captured in September, 1966. He was held in Hoa Lo Prison (Hanoi Hilton) for 364 days before being led into an interrogation session that concluded with a fatal beating. He was 41, had a wife and five children, and wanted to be home, planning his retirement from the service. But he had taken an oath and he honored it. He was a loving, intelligent, humorous man, sprung from the Greatest Generation and the deeply held belief in “just war.” But, from my own memories and from specific comments he made in the trove of letters he left behind, I know he held no rancor for those who protested against the Vietnam Conflict. He was aware of the miscalculations and manipulations (if not the lies) that drove that machine. I wish I could talk to him now.
29
Reading your comment leads me to believe, and hope, that your father would be proud. But what do you believe he would tell you? Best regards.
PS
I have no military experience and the draft ended before I became of age.
PS
I have no military experience and the draft ended before I became of age.
in trumps eyes he was just another sucker
I agree. But it's gratifying to me to know that anything uttered by Donald Trump would be beneath my father's contempt. Not worth responding to.
This was a great and a brave piece of writing. I only wish I had had the knowledge in 1964 that there were ways out of the draft. I thought you had to go and I went --- into the Navy and into that stupid, pointless, costly and undeclared war. The worst for me was seeing hundreds of Marines killed during Operation Double Eagle in 1966. Later I found out how the campus smarties had found all kinds of loopholes in the draft law. I see nothing wrong in what you did in evading it. I wish I had done the same.
9
Funny how differently similarly situated people can feel about the same matter. I am 67 and had a similar experience with the draft lottery, though I did not avoid service by fraudulent means. I had friends who were drafted and forced to fight in Vietnam.
I do not feel guilt for not being subjected to the involuntary servitude of the military draft. Nor do I feel indebted to those who did not or could not escape military service. I feel empathy for them for enduring compelled service and for the injuries, emotional and physical, that they suffered.
They are not heroes in my book, they are like the rest of us but without the good luck or the determination to avoid the draft. I do not think for one moment that these are people who "fought for our freedom", as all our political leaders love to say. The men I knew served because they were forced to on threat of imprisonment and fought in a war that had nothing to do with American freedom. Like Iraq, Vietnam was an unnecessary war initiated by a government controlled by the military-industrial complex that Eisenhaur warned us about. I owe no debt those who fought it, only sympathy.
I do not feel guilt for not being subjected to the involuntary servitude of the military draft. Nor do I feel indebted to those who did not or could not escape military service. I feel empathy for them for enduring compelled service and for the injuries, emotional and physical, that they suffered.
They are not heroes in my book, they are like the rest of us but without the good luck or the determination to avoid the draft. I do not think for one moment that these are people who "fought for our freedom", as all our political leaders love to say. The men I knew served because they were forced to on threat of imprisonment and fought in a war that had nothing to do with American freedom. Like Iraq, Vietnam was an unnecessary war initiated by a government controlled by the military-industrial complex that Eisenhaur warned us about. I owe no debt those who fought it, only sympathy.
11
I got as far as the pre-induction process before the draft was finally ended. I accept my part of the collective debt to those who went to Viet Nam or any other military service whether or not I personally agree with the actions of the United States.
One of the things about being part of a republic is accepting that you will sometimes not agree with its actions and policies and, while I might well resist them, I cannot wash my hands of them and say that they have nothing to do with me.
I fairly regularly read from Libertarian-oriented people that taxation is theft and that the government should be reduced to the military and an apparatus to punish crime and enforce contracts and I stand agog that they simply reject the notion of having duties to the society they live in.
One of the things about being part of a republic is accepting that you will sometimes not agree with its actions and policies and, while I might well resist them, I cannot wash my hands of them and say that they have nothing to do with me.
I fairly regularly read from Libertarian-oriented people that taxation is theft and that the government should be reduced to the military and an apparatus to punish crime and enforce contracts and I stand agog that they simply reject the notion of having duties to the society they live in.
1
I am dismayed that so many responders do the false equivalency game of making Trump's and Clinton's actions to avoid the draft the question, with some also saying Hillary could have volunteered and in not doing so was the same as Trump.
This is not about Trump avoiding the Draft. It is about his apparent scorn for those who have served in the military, and their families. From McCain to the Khans, his disdain is evident.
I am a bit older and was lucky enough to serve after Korea and before Vietnam. Among my age and back through the WWII vets, avoiding the draft, except by volunteering, was the act of cowards. I, however, understand the position of those who rebelled against Vietnam service, and leave them to work out the morality of their own actions.
But I am outraged at Trump's treatment of both McCain and the Khans. On election day I will give him an "electoral" punch in the nose.
This is not about Trump avoiding the Draft. It is about his apparent scorn for those who have served in the military, and their families. From McCain to the Khans, his disdain is evident.
I am a bit older and was lucky enough to serve after Korea and before Vietnam. Among my age and back through the WWII vets, avoiding the draft, except by volunteering, was the act of cowards. I, however, understand the position of those who rebelled against Vietnam service, and leave them to work out the morality of their own actions.
But I am outraged at Trump's treatment of both McCain and the Khans. On election day I will give him an "electoral" punch in the nose.
17
Donald Trump's problem is not that he is lacking a soul. I could make a pretty strong argument that Hillary Clinton, along with quite a few other politicians, lack a soul. The real problem is a complete lack of self control and an inability to realize he is not the center of the universe. His total self absorbtion is probably some psychological condition (narcissism combined with some other bad issues) and it may have served him in a business context where he took advantage of every business partner, squeezing them till they capitulated and he got his way, plus some, and they got a lot less, or nothing. Unfortunately this does not work in a situation where, even if self centered and soulless, you have to think and make decisions directed to benefit others (often with no direct benefit to yourself). It is immensely sad as, between his campaign and that of Bernie Sanders, it is pretty clear that a great many Americans are sick of the government as it currently rolls. He is simply the wrong person. That is something everyone who has watched him for the last 40 or so years knew, but secretly hoped might not be true.
8
Nice piece. But what have Horace and Catullus to do with it? You sound as if you feel guilty for being a pointy-headed egghead! Surely you must have heard of the brave men who have read classical poetry in front-line trenches and POW camps. Courage is not the antithesis of intellect.
And, by the way, being drafted didn’t necessarily mean being sent to Vietnam. Lots of draftees (I was one) served their two years Stateside or elsewhere overseas. I don’t know the figures but I’d guess even at the height of the war more than half were never in Vietnam.
And, by the way, being drafted didn’t necessarily mean being sent to Vietnam. Lots of draftees (I was one) served their two years Stateside or elsewhere overseas. I don’t know the figures but I’d guess even at the height of the war more than half were never in Vietnam.
1
The writer was sitting on the floor of his Brandeis University dorm. Didn't that exempt him from service. What is this guilt he is talking about? He would not turn 19 until next year and would still be in college. Literary license?
4
No, at that point in time the SS System was no longer going to be granting student deferments unless you were married and had a child.
K. And presently, he's dodging an exponentially more lethal war; one that can't be dodged.
Trump on Climate: Chinese hoax.
"I can't seem to face up to the facts" Psycho Killer -- Talking Heads
Bio Terrorist
Kid Killer
Sky Perp
Pathological Liar
Inferior Mind
1983. "We're in a war for survival and it's everybody's duty to get involved. If they don't, they'll be drafted into it anyway, by circumstance." Paul Watson Captain of the Sea Shepherd
(Welcome Draftees.)
Corp Media: Decades of symptom surfing and duct tape remedies when the status quo's manner of reality interface is non-selectable.
Dead Wrong.
Trump on Climate: Chinese hoax.
"I can't seem to face up to the facts" Psycho Killer -- Talking Heads
Bio Terrorist
Kid Killer
Sky Perp
Pathological Liar
Inferior Mind
1983. "We're in a war for survival and it's everybody's duty to get involved. If they don't, they'll be drafted into it anyway, by circumstance." Paul Watson Captain of the Sea Shepherd
(Welcome Draftees.)
Corp Media: Decades of symptom surfing and duct tape remedies when the status quo's manner of reality interface is non-selectable.
Dead Wrong.
1
Mr. Gup - This is a beautiful piece, on so many levels. Particularly, coming from a military family myself - but myself NOT having served - i appreciate the honesty and humility about your choices, including your thankfulness for those did/do serve.
2
Mr. Gup, I applaud your admission of a combination of cowardice and careerism as your reason for dodging the draft--and in the same way Trump did, with a phony medical excuse from a doctor doing himself no harm by serving his rich clientele.
However, when you speak of the "ignobility of the Vietnam era" and then mention the "disproportionate numbers of the poor and minorities pressed into service," I have no sense that you recognize and accept responsibility for your draft evasion as contributing toward those numbers. You may feel regret at your personal flaws in making your choice, but you do not show regret at your welching on a debt to society. I wonder how you think that you have paid that off.
However, when you speak of the "ignobility of the Vietnam era" and then mention the "disproportionate numbers of the poor and minorities pressed into service," I have no sense that you recognize and accept responsibility for your draft evasion as contributing toward those numbers. You may feel regret at your personal flaws in making your choice, but you do not show regret at your welching on a debt to society. I wonder how you think that you have paid that off.
5
There is no 'debt' to society. We have laws, to be sure, and plenty of decent people have served time in prisons to conscientiously not follow them.
But nobody is born indebted to society, particularly where killing is concerned. That's a myth perpetuated by people who unfortunately swallowed it.
But nobody is born indebted to society, particularly where killing is concerned. That's a myth perpetuated by people who unfortunately swallowed it.
We are social animals. We get benefits from society; we have debts to society. This is not a myth; it is a reality about human beings and their societies. Your American rugged individualism is the selfishness of the immature and irresponsible.
John McCain was unlucky and he suffered. And when we imagine his pain in captivity, we naturally ache for that suffering. But obeying orders and hoping for the best doesn't make one a hero. We're all slaves to one thing or another, and slaves can never be heroes.
Given Trump's recent statements about the Purple Heart, how many different ways does Trump need to disrespect the military, veterans and those who suffered life and limb for this country for people to finally see him for who he is?
6
without the draft, the head of selective service at the time said we could not fight the viet nam war. at 20 i realized this was a war that was totally wrong. I'm proud that i dodged the draft. i wish everyone had done the same thing.
7
In the course of the Vietnam War, about 15.4 million men received deferments, were exempted or disqualified. Polifact.
1
Day by day, tweet by tweet, the vacuous character of DJT is revealed.
His every word is like shining a tiny beam of light into the dark, empty cave that is his soul only to reveal. . . nothing there.
He is baffled and outraged at all the public scorn coming his way because he truly, fundamentally does not understand what empathy and compassion for another fees like.
He is a textbook narcissist with delusions of grandiosity.
His every word is like shining a tiny beam of light into the dark, empty cave that is his soul only to reveal. . . nothing there.
He is baffled and outraged at all the public scorn coming his way because he truly, fundamentally does not understand what empathy and compassion for another fees like.
He is a textbook narcissist with delusions of grandiosity.
7
The Donald recently received a Purple Heart, all is right with the world.
3
I honor , as all Americans should, the real heroes of that war, those who chose jail or Canada rather than go to kill and maim people who had done us no harm and posed no danger to us. The big lie ways that Americans were fighting for "freedom" when, in fact, our government and military were merely supporting one group of thugs against another group of thugs.
5
The writer neglects to offer a few words about Lyndon Johnson - the disgrace of a President who brought us into a shooting war with pathetic arguments and then had the gall to persist - resulting in the death of more than 50 thousand good young men.
1
Just for the record- Johnson was consciously continuing the Kennedy administration's policies on Vietnam. Loyalty to his predecessor. Imagine that.
Don't judge yourself as coward or careerist, or dishonorable, you stood up courageously against an evil war prosecuted by corrupt politicians. Did you do what you had to to avoid enabling an act of evil by our government, yes, and the protests back home helped future generations in both America and in Vietnam not have to die for a lost cause. Your actions were braver and more honorable than following orders to kill innocents abroad- the difference is that your privilege made it easier to stand up to that evil than other men could have.
For that privilege, perhaps, you owe some kind of debt- its not necessarily thanking them for going, but acknowledging that for them they had less choice.
For that privilege, perhaps, you owe some kind of debt- its not necessarily thanking them for going, but acknowledging that for them they had less choice.
2
I was just 17 when I became an ROTC cadet at an engineering school presided over by a retired general, bright eyed, bushy tailed, and totally naive.
Why one "dodged" the draft matters.
Only the dodger knows the answer.
Only the dodger knows the answer.
1
In 1971, I was eligible for the draft lottery. I decided to just see what number I drew, and the number was 313. So, I wasn't drafted. Out of one side of his mouth, Trump has discussed the bone spur deferment. However, out of the other side, he said that he received a high lottery number, and that's why he wasn't drafted. But, the lottery had not started yet, and the bone spur deferment is the truth. So, Trump out and out lied about the non-existent high lottery number. When you add this to revelations that he repeatedly asked foreign policy advisors why we can't use nuclear weapons, since we have them, anyone with any sense knows why Trump is not fit to serve as commander-in-chief. Almost all of his other disgraceful behavior pales in comparison to these facts. We simply cannot put the nuclear codes into the hands of Donald Trump.
20
I am glad that someone finally wrote about Trump's prevaricating about whether he received any benefit from his bone-spur deferment. He did so, without question. He was graduated from college in mid-1968. That ended his college deferment. He then became eligible to be drafted. He avoided being drafted in 1968 and 1969 solely because of his bone-spur deferment. The first draft lottery drawing took place on December 1, 1969, and first took effect (for those, like Trump, born in 1944-1950) in 1970. Only in 1970 (when the draft call-up reached lottery number 195) did Trump benefit from his high draft lottery number (356).
Lucky you for getting 313.
I was lucky in that I received a last minute deferment after a low lottery number and a physical, but the thing is I knew I would never go even if it meant prison and I was ok with my decision/commitment. The war was wrong, wrong, wrong, and I knew it. And if I may say so; it took guts to openly resist the draft.
Tragically so many went because they did not see any viable alternative. They just went even though they did not want to and did not support or just as often had no clue as to what the war was about.
Tragically so many went because they did not see any viable alternative. They just went even though they did not want to and did not support or just as often had no clue as to what the war was about.
10
I too born in 1950 was able to avoid going to Vietnam by first a college deferment then thru luck not getting drafted while 1a and holding number 79 in the lottery. For 3 months the draft was suspended and I was granted 1Y. I have the same guilt and honour to my friends who served and yes died while I continued on.
Unfortunately my dad had not a million dollars. Trump is a disgrace. Period.
Unfortunately my dad had not a million dollars. Trump is a disgrace. Period.
13
As I read your article memories came flooding back. But I was not a soldier, nor a draft dodger. I was a draft resistor. I, and my friends, fought against the Vietnam War with everything we had. We marched. We demonstrated. We protested. We prayed. We took part in sit-ins, teach-ins. We performed guerilla theatre. We were tear gassed. We were beaten. We were jailed. Some of us went to prison. Some of us fled to Canada.
Today I still feel guilty and sad. Not about my resistance, but about all those names on that black wall. I feel guilty and sad that I live in a country that talks peace but promotes “perpetual war”; that I live in a country that spends trillions on developing the latest lethal technology or weapon, but allows millions of its children to go to bed hungry each night.
And I remember the words that Bob Dylan sang all those years ago:
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul. – Bob Dylan “Masters of War”
War is not the answer. It never was and never will be.
Today I still feel guilty and sad. Not about my resistance, but about all those names on that black wall. I feel guilty and sad that I live in a country that talks peace but promotes “perpetual war”; that I live in a country that spends trillions on developing the latest lethal technology or weapon, but allows millions of its children to go to bed hungry each night.
And I remember the words that Bob Dylan sang all those years ago:
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul. – Bob Dylan “Masters of War”
War is not the answer. It never was and never will be.
26
Bone spurs of the heart disqualify Trump from the presidency.
7
"Not Like Other Draft Dodgers" Lots of nuance, excuses and self-depredation here; actually way too much. How 'bout instead "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck - it's a duck." The fact is: you were all draft dodgers - period.
6
The fact is: the war was nearly genocidal in its wildly indiscriminate killing of both North and South Vietnamese, who died by the millions, and the worst war the US ever engaged in until the Iraq War. Many people correctly listened to their conscience and decided not to participate in what was essentially an illegal and manufactured war by our own country.
2
And then there are those who risked jail or left their homeland because of their belief that the war was wrong and that Americans were giving up their lives in a bad cause. It turns out they were right.
11
Simple solution: the RNC slips Donald his first billion and he retires from the race due to ill health, a recurrence of those bone spurs, perhaps.
9
trump did not dodge nam out of any sense of principle
that it was a bad war
he was a coward who didnt want to get hurt
he wanted to continue to make heaps of money
he would have dodged ww2
23
And there were those who did.
I had REAL feet problems and wore orthodics since I was very young. I wanted to serve, however, so I hid my orthodics while undergoing my physical. I gladly served as my entire family had done such.
I appreciate your article.
Bill
Army '66-'69.
I appreciate your article.
Bill
Army '66-'69.
16
In Americas ruling class nearly every politician is a draft dodger, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush easily come to mind, so why pick on Trump.
4
Because unlike Clinton and Bush, Trump has displayed an unbelievably outspoken, egotistical, and arrogant disrespect for the military, for the lost lives of soldiers, for their suffering families, and for veterans who endured horrific torture (McCain).
All true, but taken to its logical end the argument is that Trump's bone spur has metastasized. He is afflicted by brain spurs, and, to quote Dr. Leonard McCoy, "it's spreadin '!"
4
Feeling guilty for not serving in Vietnam, the most egregious and asinine of wars, is akin to Stockholm syndrome: you have become so awash in the manipulative excesses of those who have power over you, you begin to believe and embrace those excesses as your own. Thinking of yourself as "chicken" because you don't want to go and kill for Empire is exactly what you are supposed to feel according to the dominant culture. Resisting this impulse to kill for god and country is not only right, it is noble. To paint Trump as cowardly for not participating in collective insanity is a dangerous mistake; because rather than discredit Trump you are lending credence to his other insane positions by vilifying him for the one he got right.
10
But the point of his article is different: that Trump, like Bush and Cheney, didn't avoid serving in the war for some noble cause or a deep-rooted aversion to war or because he thought the war was evil. Like Bush and Cheney, his family supported the war but those spoiled boys just didn't feel like participating, because, as Cheney most notoriously put it, they had "other priorities" despite their gung-ho "patriotism." They were the living embodiment of "rich man's war, poor man's fight." Trump's constant disparagement of the military, his dissing of the Khan family, and his derisive sneering at McCain's tortured imprisonment prove that Trump has got nothing "right." But it does prove the author's point, that Trump has not a shred of humanity or empathy.
I agree with most of what you say. Using the word "noble" and Trump in the same sentence is indeed a stretch. But my point is that regardless of the spurious motives of the undeserving and morally decrepit offspring of the elites, refusal to participate in the folly of Vietnam was necessary and moral. There is no scale of justice or fairness of balance when it comes to sending our young men to die. Resistance by any person of any moral status benefits all of us who rail against the degradations of Empire.
Trump responding to attacks by Khan, who was clearly a prop for the Democrats, is now evidence that he hates veterans?
Ok.
Now, Trump may not be wise to constantly continue battles such as this, but there is alot coming out about who Khan really is. I doubt you will see it reported in this rag, though.
Ok.
Now, Trump may not be wise to constantly continue battles such as this, but there is alot coming out about who Khan really is. I doubt you will see it reported in this rag, though.
5
He is really an immigration lawyer, and his son really bravely gave his life to protect his men.
The rest, the drivel you are learning on anonymous websites, is unsubstantiated and comes down to nothing more than guilt by association.
The rest, the drivel you are learning on anonymous websites, is unsubstantiated and comes down to nothing more than guilt by association.
Do you mean that Brietbart stupidity?
No, Trump's comments that vilified the Khans while casually dismissing their son's brave death, along with his unrelenting disparagement of the military and his incredible belittling of McCain as a loser who somehow deserved to be tortured, is evidence that he hates (or at least has zero empathy for) veterans. It's come out of his own mouth, for pete's sake. Nobody forced him to make those comments. Trump is essentially an 8-year old trapped in a man's body, a kid with severe ADD who can't stop blabbering about anything and everything that he knows nothing about. Who's only concern in life is his own aggrandizement. Who serves only a constituency of one: Donald Trump. Stop trying to protect this sociopathic narcissist.
And it's amazing that you are hoping that some nasty dirt will come out about a soldier who, beyond dispute, sacrificed his own life to protect his fellow soldiers. Is that really who you are? Then you're no better than your bullying, desperate, lying hero.
And it's amazing that you are hoping that some nasty dirt will come out about a soldier who, beyond dispute, sacrificed his own life to protect his fellow soldiers. Is that really who you are? Then you're no better than your bullying, desperate, lying hero.
I can't help thinking of guys who volunteered to go; both those who were rejected for medical reasons and those who never came back. Does Herr Drumpf question the patriotism of either one?
3
I volunteered for Korea. Had a deal to be a musician in a shipboard band. No heros, but we got into some dangerous waters. Trump could have made a deal, right?
1
That's supposed to be what he's good at.
2
Great essay. But:
Words too big.
Sentences too long.
Trump supporters won't get.
Words too big.
Sentences too long.
Trump supporters won't get.
5
"Trump supporters won't get," you say?
Well, think again...
Many are far smarter,
About those things that matter,
Than their venomous critics,
Who do little but natter…
Well, think again...
Many are far smarter,
About those things that matter,
Than their venomous critics,
Who do little but natter…
Guilt yes for a young women running with her cloths and skin burning off from napalm a country sprayed with agent orange and Kent State students being gunned down
4
This strikes me as an honest self-reflection, emblematic of what this generation should be thinking about. But one correction: Mr. Gup writes, "I know of no one else of my generation who avoided the war who could speak the words that Mr. Trump did, who seems not to feel a pang of — call it what you will — conscience or guilt over unearned privilege or crass luck." I submit the name of Dick Cheney as someone closer to Trump than to Mr. Gup in his glib satisfaction about his actions back then.
8
Amen.
I too 'won' the lottery when I turned 18 and Dec 4th was drawn first... I stayed in college, joined Army ROTC and by the time graduation rolled around in Dec '74, the war was in peace negotiations ... I had friends from high school who died in Vietnam and I can't help but wonder what they died for... I recall McNamarra finally publishing his apology and calling Vietnam a mistake ... I believe America should reinstitute the draft and make every American serve in some capacity. Lastly, Congress should be accountable in debating war powers and based on such debate declaring (or not) whether we put young people in harm's way! No more rich men's wars and poor men's fights!
12
Trump has no soul or conscience. He has probably never thought about his draft evasion like you did, he doesnt care. It is only about him you know. I was against the Viet Nam war as I am against all wars. They really never serve a purpose in the long run other than make munitions makers even richer (ask Cheney) and poor soldiers dead before their time.
3
First, I think the headline is misleading. It has a subtle implication that there is nothing wrong with Trump dodging the draft---he is not like the other draft dodgers. But, this writer claims that he is a good draft dodger and part of the good draft dodger group. Trump is different and part of the bad draft dodger group. His conclusions about Trump are accurate, but the whole thing seems to be and attempt to castigate Trump while exonerating himself. I went to Vietnam with the First Air Cav. My best friend dodge the draft with a series of exemptions for "stretch" reasons. I believe what he did, and what this writer did, or didn't do, was cowardly. So?
5
Sorry, but it's never cowardly to not participate in an immoral war. Sometimes a country needs to fight; certainly World War Two is Exhibit A for that claim. But Vietnam was totally avoidable. It was a war largely manufactured by us, as we installed Diem as a dictator of a country that was largely of our own creation, then acquiesced when his own generals murdered him, then tried to support a series of desultory military men who were incapable of uniting South Vietnam.
We dropped more bombs on SOUTH Vietnam than we did in both theaters of war during WWII. We used white phosphorous, Agent Orange, napalm, and free-fire zones to, as it turned out, no avail but unreal amounts of slaughter and havoc. However, we did succeed in killing millions of people, most of them in the place we were supposedly defending, South Vietnam. And we were not supporting democracy there, because there was never a democratic government in SV. The war was a huge, tragic, costly mistake, and many people who refused to serve there did so out of good conscience, not because they were "cowardly." However, I will make an exception to the "cowardly" claim: Bush, Cheney, and Trump. They all declared their support for the war, but also used connections and deferments to not have to serve in Nam. Now, THAT'S cowardly!
We dropped more bombs on SOUTH Vietnam than we did in both theaters of war during WWII. We used white phosphorous, Agent Orange, napalm, and free-fire zones to, as it turned out, no avail but unreal amounts of slaughter and havoc. However, we did succeed in killing millions of people, most of them in the place we were supposedly defending, South Vietnam. And we were not supporting democracy there, because there was never a democratic government in SV. The war was a huge, tragic, costly mistake, and many people who refused to serve there did so out of good conscience, not because they were "cowardly." However, I will make an exception to the "cowardly" claim: Bush, Cheney, and Trump. They all declared their support for the war, but also used connections and deferments to not have to serve in Nam. Now, THAT'S cowardly!
1
Sorry also. But, I don't believe that most of the defectors and non-participants really understood that it was an "immoral" war. I don't know if I would use the word "immoral" to describe the war as you might apply that word to all wars. For instance, was it "moral" for Hitler to declare war on Eastern Europe, France and Britain? I don't think so, but perhaps you do. Most young men, like my friend that I mentioned and my brother, were afraid. I was afraid. Who would not be afraid confronted with war? I believed in my country and I, along with thousands of others was betrayed by my country---well, its leaders---but I did not understand that until I went to Vietnam and returned. I am sure that many who refused to serve did so out of good conscience, but only a small percentage who had the intellect and insight to perceive what you call "immoral." I agree that it was a huge, tragic, and costly mistake, but it, like Iraq, was a betrayal by the leaders of our country.
Every male in the middle class town in which I grew up tried his hardest to get out of the draft. There is no story here and no point to be made whatsoever.
2
The idea that, Trump has no ability to be empathetic is the story but if that isn't worth a discussion, that's a world I don't want to live in.
1
I will support pro-abortion Hillary and EVERY Republican Senator. Appointing a SCOTUS judge is irrelevant without Senate confirmation, as should almost be obvious enough for most-Americans by now. A Republican majority in both the House of Reps and the Senate would wholly offset the fact that representational democracy ended in 1929 by popular votes and has now ruined the Presidency.
The opponents of the Vietnam War helped bring it to an end. The real debt is owed by those who were spared as a result.
For those who participated in this immoral war, there is not much that can be easily said. They were lied to for a long time. Articles like this are part of an accounting that still has a long way to run.
For those who participated in this immoral war, there is not much that can be easily said. They were lied to for a long time. Articles like this are part of an accounting that still has a long way to run.
4
Anyway you could get out of the illegal wars of Vietnam and Iraq is justifiable. Both wars were based on lies told by presidents, which makes them by definition illegal. A soldier is bound to follow orders that are lawful. If the orders are unlawful, he is bound to not follow the orders. Can there be lawful orders to kill innocent people who are in an unlawful war?
4
What sane person DOES want to go to war, unless his own country and people are under attack? Vietnam was the first of many unnecessary "wars of opportunity" since Korea, the one against Iraq being the most disgraceful of all.
Like many millions of my peers, I recognized that the war in Vietnam was a civil war, in no way a threat to the US--an understanding since borne out by history. Our involvement was just one more unfortunate misstep on our transformation from Republic to Empire.
The dust of history has settled on many such imperialists--the Romans, the English, the Dutch, the French, the Russians, the Germans, etc. The quest to rule the world, whether driven by ego or fear, always ends the same: overreaching, followed by exhaustion--financially, morally, politically.
We North Americans seem at the tipping point now: still perusing agression around the world, while 90% of our people languish in ill health, poverty or financial insecurity; our infrastructure continues to crumble, our sense of meaning and purpose erodes--and the rich get richer!
And we marginalized, scorn, and defeat the one presidential candidate in a generation or more that has a clue!
Had enough yet?
Like many millions of my peers, I recognized that the war in Vietnam was a civil war, in no way a threat to the US--an understanding since borne out by history. Our involvement was just one more unfortunate misstep on our transformation from Republic to Empire.
The dust of history has settled on many such imperialists--the Romans, the English, the Dutch, the French, the Russians, the Germans, etc. The quest to rule the world, whether driven by ego or fear, always ends the same: overreaching, followed by exhaustion--financially, morally, politically.
We North Americans seem at the tipping point now: still perusing agression around the world, while 90% of our people languish in ill health, poverty or financial insecurity; our infrastructure continues to crumble, our sense of meaning and purpose erodes--and the rich get richer!
And we marginalized, scorn, and defeat the one presidential candidate in a generation or more that has a clue!
Had enough yet?
2
Excellent article and well said. However I find a guy like Dick Cheney even worse who have no problem sending our kids off to a war based on lies and then has the gumption to say that he would do it again. That man is the very definition of a chickenhawk.
6
Even those who only served stateside during that time, and their families, had to endure poverty (eligible for food stamps and car-less and living in substandard and even dangerous off-base housing if married and in lower ranks, in locales not of one's choosing); deferred lives and schooling and careers and earnings; having to obey authority figures without question and with little or no choice of occupation, schedule or anything else; and the constant dread of being shipped out to a combat zone or some other still miserable posting.
It's one thing to knowingly sign up for such a life and even now many are still "forced" into the military by circumstance; it's still quite another to be forced into it by a mandatory draft.
I'm left with mixed feelings about whether the draft should be reinstated, but I lean toward doing so, but with no allowable exemptions--those who are physically unable to serve could still be burdened with the loss of freedom and opportunity while doing desk jobs. Politicians would be forced to really think hard about foreign adventures if they knew everyone of draft age--male and female--would pay the always life-changing price for it, even their own friends and relatives. It seems nothing else can make them understand the consequences of their decisions.
It's one thing to knowingly sign up for such a life and even now many are still "forced" into the military by circumstance; it's still quite another to be forced into it by a mandatory draft.
I'm left with mixed feelings about whether the draft should be reinstated, but I lean toward doing so, but with no allowable exemptions--those who are physically unable to serve could still be burdened with the loss of freedom and opportunity while doing desk jobs. Politicians would be forced to really think hard about foreign adventures if they knew everyone of draft age--male and female--would pay the always life-changing price for it, even their own friends and relatives. It seems nothing else can make them understand the consequences of their decisions.
11
Thousands dodged the draft and went to Canada and other places. I am old enough to remember Vietnam and the massacre in Cambodia. Middle class people got their kids into college to avoid the war. Go to Angel Fire Memorial in New Mexico and look at the profile of the men who died and where they were from.
I am surprised that the Trump family let him out of the box. He lacks the basic social skills. He is petulant, self-serving, and inarticulate. His sons and daughter from earlier marriages sit beside him while his wife and youngest son are relegated to the end of the row of family and friends. First Lady or first sons and daughter? They try to mop up after yet another disasterous somment. On all levels this man is a national embarrassment.
8
Well said, form a guy with a lottery number of 20 who didn't go to war. Trump misses the whole point, his reason to stay home was objection to kill or be killed for no discernable reason, it was not fear, it was so he could stay home and make money and play with girls. He thinks its funny!
I'd like to hear the thoughts of 58,000 Americans, but unfortunately they are unavailable for comment.
5
Some the war monger is a draft dodger -- lol.
This is further evidence of the fools that voted for him.
This is further evidence of the fools that voted for him.
It took courage to decide to conscientiously dodge the draft. Trump's way is simply cowardice.
4
No, I have no guilt about not going to Viet Nam. It was a sickening war, trumped up by men with poor souls.
5
And this doesn't even mention Trump's acceptance yesterday of a veteran's earned medal, declaring "I always wanted to get the Purple Heart" and "this was much easier."
A man of pure vulgarity or mental illness.
A man of pure vulgarity or mental illness.
6
If he really "always wanted" a purple heart, without questioning who in the world would think that, he should have volunteered to SERVE and maybe he would have been wounded in combat so as to get what he desired. Did Donald ever take a logic course? I'm just thankful he wasn't ever under my leadership role in Viet Nam.
I'm sure this year's version of the Swift Boat hypocrites are cooking up some stupid and transparently phony reason why Donald Trump is some sort of hero just like they painted George W. Bush as some sort of hero and John Kerry, who actually served with honor, as some sort of fake or coward. It doesn't surprise me that Chicken Hawks like Trump and Bush and Dick Cheney exist or that hypocrites with hidden mercenary motives support them, but it used to surprise me that so many people are taken in by them, and it still saddens me.
7
I served four years, 1966-70. I didn't kill anyone, nor did any of the units with which I served. I'm rather proud of that. A lot of my friends were COs. None of them killed anyone either, far as I know. I don't think anyone "owes" us anything other than to pay attention to the facts, rather than fall into line behind the warmongers of the present political generation. But if you want to do something for me? Read more, watch less TV and don't believe a thing you see on the internet unless it checks out.
8
In the meantime the person Hillary brought out as a dancing monkey has deleted his "professional" website and has apparently had close ties radical muslims gaining access to america.
Not to mention Hillary lied point blank to every single parent of the benghazi attacks.
Not to mention Hillary lied point blank to every single parent of the benghazi attacks.
I am certainly no fan of Mrs. Clinton. But enough of the Benghazi nonsense.
It's funny how every time Mr. Trump is castigated for doing or saying something stupid, the fall-back is:
"Well, Hillary…"
No, this election isn't all about Hillary. It's also about what Mr. Trump has said and done in his life. People should question his judgement just as they should question hers.
It's funny how every time Mr. Trump is castigated for doing or saying something stupid, the fall-back is:
"Well, Hillary…"
No, this election isn't all about Hillary. It's also about what Mr. Trump has said and done in his life. People should question his judgement just as they should question hers.
3
So, you discount the ultimate sacrifice his son made, which has been corroborated by the US army, because someone finds his work as an immigration lawyer unappealing?
Hmm.
Hmm.
1
Trump's lack of military service was common for that time. Who wanted their son or brother to come back in a box? But his complete lack of respect for those who did serve, especially for those who have died, ought to warn people: He is supremely unqualified for the job he seeks.
10
It is important to have worthy leaders.
The natural idealism of the young is not to be wasted by the powerful. That trust between generations was squandered in Viet Nam and Trump's exit was one of many provided if you had resources. The later bellicosity of guys like Cheney with 5 deferments and the NRA's Wayne LaPierre who got out of Viet Nam for "nervousness" is one for the shrinks. Trump's disappearing "bone spurs" was par for the rich or connected at the time.
But Trump's behavior today is more than a reaction to saving his own hide back in the day. That Trump is enamored of the "strong guy" Putin, needs his ego petted all the time, talks endlessly of "weakness" but who in practice is a reactive teenager speaks to the snakes in his own head. He has no proper response to the anger and grief of the Khans after provoking their need to speak out in their own son's defense in the first place. That he denigrated John McCain's capture and status as POW as being "a loser" speaks to a weirdness we can't afford. He isnt built right on his insides- and has no business even thinking of being POTUS.
8
This article is deeply personal to me. I was lucky that I had an educational deferment and later a high draft number. I was against the Vietnam War but have respect for those who because of bad luck, economically disadvantage or a sense of patriotism were drafted into the military. What we are seeing today is a seriously pathologically flawed candidate running for president. He suffers from narcissistic perversion. He has a deficiency of mirror neurons. This renders him biologically incapable of empathy, which defines what it means to be human. While this makes him a ruthlessly effective business man, it disqualifies him for the presidency, because our Constitution and Democracy have no place for a demagogue fascist in waiting who has sacrificed nothing and has no compassion for others that have.
5
He's not an effective business man. Check Atlantic City out. He's a con artist.
1
Unfortunately it was Mr. Khan who decided to instrument his son's death for political purposes. If Mr. Khan wants to be part of Ms. Clinton's show he shouldn't be surprised that Mr. Trump is going after him. As for the brave son and soldier, he served our country well and deserves our respect. He is dead now and can't speak for himself, unlike those who decided to enlist him again in the nasty political campaign of Ms. Clinton.
1
So, only the mothers of dead soldiers at the Republican convention pass your muster?
1
Is that so? then why did the evil Democrats and the evil Hillary not attack the mother's of the Benghazi soldiers who were killed when they were shamelessly taken advantage of by the Trump and the Republicans at their convention.
No, Mr. Kahn and his wife should not have expected to be attacked.
No, Mr. Kahn and his wife should not have expected to be attacked.
1
As a teenage girl during those years, I felt that young men had to do what they had to do. I knew guys who served, guys who lucked out with high lottery numbers, guys who found other legal ways out, one guy who ran to Canada. I respected all their decisions. It was a war that never should have been fought.
The problem I had was with chickenhawks: those who did not serve themselves, but strongly believed that others should. Trump falls into that category, but much worse, because he sneers at those who served as well as those who did not.
The problem I had was with chickenhawks: those who did not serve themselves, but strongly believed that others should. Trump falls into that category, but much worse, because he sneers at those who served as well as those who did not.
6
Thank you Professor Gup. What a powerful essay you have written. Your description of your experiences associated with the draft, and your reflections on Donald Trump's belittling of Mr. and Mrs. Khan, is important reading for all who strive to better understand the concerns that millions of Americans have with Donald Trump's recent behavior.
Based on his recent outbursts over the past day or two, Donald Trump apparently has no conscience. And it is unfathomable how America could possibly put someone without a conscience in control of our military.
Based on his recent outbursts over the past day or two, Donald Trump apparently has no conscience. And it is unfathomable how America could possibly put someone without a conscience in control of our military.
2
The whole idea of modern war as some kind of heroic activity is beyond insane.
Everything related to war is lotto.
Everything related to war is lotto.
2
It is pieces like this one that make me feel so fortunate to have the New York Times to read every day. My husband and his "band of brothers" celebrated their fiftieth reunion last fall. They survived the battle of Plei Me in October, 1965. They are proud of their service and remember their fallen comrades. They also remember how they were treated when they returned. America was angry and divided back then too. They were scorned and maligned for their service. Trump , unlike the other dodgers like Cheney, doesn't even have the smarts to fake respect for those who served. His entire world view is focused on himself. Narcisstic, selfish, cowardly, unstable, shallow. Not the qualities one would want in a president. It hurts that so many Americans are willing to overlook his disrespect of honorable service to this country and still vote for him.
6
At 61, mine was the first year they stopped actually calling draft numbers, so I didn't have to decide if I would go, but I recall I was determined not to. I knew the war was a sham and I was damned if I'd contribute to it. At the time, I thought those fighting were either fools or misguided patriots, being used to no good end by their gov't, dying for nothing. Seeing we are trading with N Vietnam now, and allying with them to offset China, I think even more so it was all necessary. Why couldn't we have negotiated it all back then? If I had a son who died there and to see we are now trading with them and going there as tourists, I'd go out of mine from my unnecessary loss!
By my my 30's I finally understood my fellow American's sacrifice and sense of duty I didn't have for country then, that I do now. I am still, to this day, filled with remorse and shame about how I thought about them and their bravery. I saw Platoon and cried in sobbing agony for an hour alone in a bathroom about my complicity and how I had abandoned these people, who did what they thought they should do at terrible risk.
But if they had refused to serve it would have been over; so I am still of 2 minds. But not about their bravery and sacrifice.
By my my 30's I finally understood my fellow American's sacrifice and sense of duty I didn't have for country then, that I do now. I am still, to this day, filled with remorse and shame about how I thought about them and their bravery. I saw Platoon and cried in sobbing agony for an hour alone in a bathroom about my complicity and how I had abandoned these people, who did what they thought they should do at terrible risk.
But if they had refused to serve it would have been over; so I am still of 2 minds. But not about their bravery and sacrifice.
6
As a Vietnam Veteran, my take on the war is probably different. Being older,
there was no lottery but unless you were in a profession their was vital, you had to serve. I was against the war, but came to the conclusion if you were an American, you could not pick or choose your wars. Am sure there were many in America who were against World Wars I & II.
Had heard that Ho Chi Minh, who was trained by the Americans to fight the Japanese, asked Truman to get all foreigners out of Vietnam and Truman refused saying France would get their colonies back. Last year returned to Vietnam and they confirmed the story.
They call it the American War and while the US lost over 50,000 in the war, they claim they lost 2 million.
Trump, who played sports in school, got a greedy doctor to write a letter for a
non existing bone spur, The Physical for the draft was not detailed, and the government doctors would take a letter on a medical condition, and didn't check them out.
Trump lied and got away with it.
Meet some individuals last month, while talking about Trump, admitted that they got out of the war with letters from doctors about fake injuries.
Still today, they call themselves American, but they really are not.
there was no lottery but unless you were in a profession their was vital, you had to serve. I was against the war, but came to the conclusion if you were an American, you could not pick or choose your wars. Am sure there were many in America who were against World Wars I & II.
Had heard that Ho Chi Minh, who was trained by the Americans to fight the Japanese, asked Truman to get all foreigners out of Vietnam and Truman refused saying France would get their colonies back. Last year returned to Vietnam and they confirmed the story.
They call it the American War and while the US lost over 50,000 in the war, they claim they lost 2 million.
Trump, who played sports in school, got a greedy doctor to write a letter for a
non existing bone spur, The Physical for the draft was not detailed, and the government doctors would take a letter on a medical condition, and didn't check them out.
Trump lied and got away with it.
Meet some individuals last month, while talking about Trump, admitted that they got out of the war with letters from doctors about fake injuries.
Still today, they call themselves American, but they really are not.
It would be impossible to examine Trump's foot to verify his claim, because he can't seem to get it out of his mouth for more than a couple of minutes.
5
It's disheartening to know there are those who think senseless loss of life constitutes patriotism. It's very clear now that the US has not fought for our 'freedoms and liberties' since WWII. In fact, it's exceedingly clear that the American people have been lied to and misled into supporting every conflict since WWII.
Very sad to see the NYTimes print such a blatantly ignorant and biased opinion piece. I'm sorry that the failed, utterly nonsensical, policy of containment and the staggering loss of lives it caused has caused inspiration for anyone.
Very sad to see the NYTimes print such a blatantly ignorant and biased opinion piece. I'm sorry that the failed, utterly nonsensical, policy of containment and the staggering loss of lives it caused has caused inspiration for anyone.
2
The illustrator, Kiersten Essenpreis, deserves explicit recognition for her work. It absolutely captures the context and substance of this op-ed article. Thank you.
7
Something to consider...
"Trump’s father, Fred Trump, suffered from Alzheimer’s Disease before his death in 1999. Recent studies have shown that Alzheimer’s affects its victims much earlier than previously thought, and, considering The Donald’s behavior on the campaign trail, it might not be too far off the mark to consider that Fred Trump gave more to his son than millions of dollars and a particularly virulent form of racism."
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.co...
Is Trump suffering from dementia? That would explain everything.
"Trump’s father, Fred Trump, suffered from Alzheimer’s Disease before his death in 1999. Recent studies have shown that Alzheimer’s affects its victims much earlier than previously thought, and, considering The Donald’s behavior on the campaign trail, it might not be too far off the mark to consider that Fred Trump gave more to his son than millions of dollars and a particularly virulent form of racism."
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.co...
Is Trump suffering from dementia? That would explain everything.
8
I was raised in the USAF; courage was expected of me. Of my high school buddies, I was the only one who didn't get drafted or volunteer. Two of my best friends spent their enlistments in Germany and never got near 'Nam. Another volunteered for the special forces and was wounded seven times because after recovering from one wound, he went back for more. I, however, was against the war. I went to two peaceful protests. When my student deferment ended after I graduated from college, I wrote my draft board and announced that I wouldn't go to 'Nam to kill Vietnamese who had not attacked our country, but if it had any alternative service, I would do that. It offered me a deferment for teaching disadvantaged students, so for seven years (1968-1975) I taught in migrant communities. Then the war ended--all of us had been affected in some way and had our lives detoured and our careers deferred. I never denigrated anyone who had gone to 'Nam because I knew what serving our country meant, and we had all served it in our own ways. Trump has never served the country in any way.
4
In the winter of 1965, I dropped out of college (ending my student deferment); my draft notice probably reached my parent's house before I did. I had no particular feelings about the Vietnam War at that time (too young, self-centered and apolitical), but I was sure I didn't want to be an Army infantry draftee in that war; which left resisting the draft, leaving the country, seeking a (fake) medical deferment or voluntarily enlisting in some other branch of military service (as getting into the National Guard without a political patron was effectively impossible by then).
I joined the Air Force and spent the next four years growing up and becoming politicized. I got to go to Southeast Asia for a year, too, where I came to despise the war (and come in contact with Agent Orange, which has left me fighting for my life against a rare form of cancer).
I returned from SEA in 1968, when one did not wear one's uniform in public because the war was so unpopular.
I have great respect for those accepted the draft, for those who volunteered, and even for those who conscientiously objected to the draft or took the risk of ruining their lives by fleeing the country; they all followed the dictates of their conscience.
I have nothing but contempt for Mr. Trump, a blowhard braggart who gamed the system to avoid service over dubious "health" issues, insuring that he suffered no inconvenience or interruption to his privileged lifestyle, and who now lays to claim the mantle of "sacrifice".
I joined the Air Force and spent the next four years growing up and becoming politicized. I got to go to Southeast Asia for a year, too, where I came to despise the war (and come in contact with Agent Orange, which has left me fighting for my life against a rare form of cancer).
I returned from SEA in 1968, when one did not wear one's uniform in public because the war was so unpopular.
I have great respect for those accepted the draft, for those who volunteered, and even for those who conscientiously objected to the draft or took the risk of ruining their lives by fleeing the country; they all followed the dictates of their conscience.
I have nothing but contempt for Mr. Trump, a blowhard braggart who gamed the system to avoid service over dubious "health" issues, insuring that he suffered no inconvenience or interruption to his privileged lifestyle, and who now lays to claim the mantle of "sacrifice".
10
There was a lot of us who avoided the draft... I received a high lottery number in the second lottery. I had already availed myself of a student deferment my freshman year of college, and when I received the high number, dropped the deferment and made myself draft-eligible for the rest of the year. I was dead-set against the reasons we were in Vietnam and to this day believe I was right in feeling this way. The draft was wrong in the first place, student and other deferments just made the draft more wrong, and then using the lottery device to pick winners and losers was even "wronger." Of course, not drafting the girls who were perfectly able to do some military jobs always bugged me too, as some of them saw guys doing military service as part of growing up male in America while they stayed at home supporting Nixon and Agnew... no skin in the game, so to speak.
I'd probably have few doubts about my decision to go to college and avoid the draft, except that I grew up in a small farming community where going to college wasn't the norm. Most of the guys just assumed that turning 18 meant turning your life over to the military for two years. After that, you either farmed or worked in the auto industry in nearby cities, or both. I was one of the few who chose college. I moved away. Then, the messages arrived: two older classmates killed within two months, another grievously injured.
Those of us who found a way out do indeed owe those who went special honors.
I'd probably have few doubts about my decision to go to college and avoid the draft, except that I grew up in a small farming community where going to college wasn't the norm. Most of the guys just assumed that turning 18 meant turning your life over to the military for two years. After that, you either farmed or worked in the auto industry in nearby cities, or both. I was one of the few who chose college. I moved away. Then, the messages arrived: two older classmates killed within two months, another grievously injured.
Those of us who found a way out do indeed owe those who went special honors.
3
If we bring back the draft today or tomorrow there will be protests and we will quickly be out of the countries we are now in and losing good men and women daily. If our moral compass suggests we continue to be in foreign countries we can now use planes and drones to conduct the fighting keeping most out of harms way. Wars are often manufactured to benefit, monetarily, the military industrial complex. As for ISIS who threatens the world, use whatever force needed to control them but keep our good men and women off the playing field, use airplanes, rockets and drones to destroy them.
3
When I reported for my physical exam in Chicago in 1969, it was apparent that the wealthy northern suburbanite kids had the $$ and connections to find a physician to write a get-out-of-the-draft letter. Many stood in line with me and were rejected while my paperwork was stamped "1A."
1
I'm a liberal woman who despises war, but I am forever grateful to the men and women who dedicate themselves to making sure I will always have a right to speak out against it. And I will never, ever disparage their service. All Trump had to do was either remain silent after Mr. Khan's speech or say something like "I'm sorry for his loss, and I respect his family's sacrifice." Instead, Trump and his ego compared him avoiding STDs while sleeping around to the risk our soldiers face in battle. What has happened to us as a country that we are not all, with one voice, condemning Trump? Why is the party that claims to own patriotism not loudly denouncing him? Have we lost our national conscience?
4
No we haven't lost our national conscience.
Republicans yes..Americans no.
Republicans yes..Americans no.
As a 1969 achiever of what was called the "coveted 1Y" rating, I want to voice an appreciation of those who did serve.
Although most of us would, if we could, make the Vietnam War not have happened, can you rule out that something worse would have happened instead? (Perhaps serious aggression by China, in the belief that the "paper tiger" USA would not respond.) It was during the Cold War (remember that?) and perceived passivity by the USA could have ultimately led to the Northern Hemisphere in ashes over a miscalculation.
If a country can't raise an army in an unpopular war, its military is not very credible, which can have serious consequences in general.
Although most of us would, if we could, make the Vietnam War not have happened, can you rule out that something worse would have happened instead? (Perhaps serious aggression by China, in the belief that the "paper tiger" USA would not respond.) It was during the Cold War (remember that?) and perceived passivity by the USA could have ultimately led to the Northern Hemisphere in ashes over a miscalculation.
If a country can't raise an army in an unpopular war, its military is not very credible, which can have serious consequences in general.
Thank you Mr. Gup. You speak for me and millions of others who enjoyed deferments during the Vietnam War - did not feel guilty at the time because we considered the war to be wrong - but never considered the poor and less privileged didn't have such choice. your description or Trump - and yesterday's non-serious comment about a Purple Heart a supporter had given him - confirms that he is not temperamentally or psychologically balanced enough to lead our country as president. I am a Hillary Clintom friend and supporter. I understand many have concerns about her. But if my Democratic Party nominated someone whose words and conduct showed him or her to be narcissistic sociopath, as Ted Cruz described Trimp, I would vote for the Repiblicam candidate.
Thank you again for writing this.
--Lanny Davis
Thank you again for writing this.
--Lanny Davis
1
The Vietnam War was an ill-conceived bloodbath that needlessly killed tens of thousands of GIs and Vietnamese. The proof of its ignominy lies in the permanent shame that war has bestowed on America! No one should feel guilty who avoids such ill-conceived missions. I say, get involved if a particular war excites you, or stay away if you can only see the horrible futility of it.
I, too, sat and wondered what would happen to me in the first draft lottery in 1969. I was in VISTA, in Georgia, trying, in my own unformed morality to do some good.
I never entertained a thought about going if drafted. I was filling out my CO application when I lucked out, being 2 numbers beyond who was drafted.
I always had a mixture of joy and guilt after that. Joy in the freedom from, at very least worry. Guilt, that it was too easy. I had at least a bit of empathy for the poor souls that weren't lucky.
As the years passed and the stories started to come back from those both enthusiastically agreeing to join the war and those that more haplessly just got caught in the net I came to realize that it was all shades of gray.
For my own opinion, Trump, with all his wealth, education but most of all access to those in power, should know better. I would go so far as to say that he would have to consciously fend off the information to make a comment like always wanting a purple heart.
Yeah, it is hard to picture someone leading a country who is so devoid of empathy. I fear he has no desire to know the stories of other Americans.
I never entertained a thought about going if drafted. I was filling out my CO application when I lucked out, being 2 numbers beyond who was drafted.
I always had a mixture of joy and guilt after that. Joy in the freedom from, at very least worry. Guilt, that it was too easy. I had at least a bit of empathy for the poor souls that weren't lucky.
As the years passed and the stories started to come back from those both enthusiastically agreeing to join the war and those that more haplessly just got caught in the net I came to realize that it was all shades of gray.
For my own opinion, Trump, with all his wealth, education but most of all access to those in power, should know better. I would go so far as to say that he would have to consciously fend off the information to make a comment like always wanting a purple heart.
Yeah, it is hard to picture someone leading a country who is so devoid of empathy. I fear he has no desire to know the stories of other Americans.
1
Ted, as someone a bit older than you with similar circumstances (draft #49), I thank you. It is also worth noting that courage took a number of forms during the Vietnam era: it took courage to fight the war, but also to resist and stand up against an immoral war, to refuse induction based on the courage of ones convictions. But Donald Trump and Dan Quayle and Geo Bush were not among the courageous.
1
Mr Gup seems to have been so self absorbed that he missed the anti war movement that was won on the streets of America by those who didn't serve and those who did. The anti war movement changed the course of American and world history. I am as proud of the brothers and sisters who didn't go and fought against the war as those who did. The number of vets against the war was large and meaningful as were the number of anti war activists who whohelped end the pentagons dirty war. The self absorbed few like Gup and Trump did neither
1
Mr. Gup,
Thank you for your thoughts so well expressed. This was a confusing, horrible, time for all of us who lived through it. And you have captured the feelings of many of us. So many who didn't share this time fail to understand the complexity of emotions we felt then and now. We do appreciate those who served and those who lost their lives. We do have respect for them although many we knew took a different path.
I fault Mr. Trump not for his deferments, but for his callousness and flippant disregard for both his contemporaries and for all the people who have served in the military and sacrificed so much to do so.
Thank you for your thoughts so well expressed. This was a confusing, horrible, time for all of us who lived through it. And you have captured the feelings of many of us. So many who didn't share this time fail to understand the complexity of emotions we felt then and now. We do appreciate those who served and those who lost their lives. We do have respect for them although many we knew took a different path.
I fault Mr. Trump not for his deferments, but for his callousness and flippant disregard for both his contemporaries and for all the people who have served in the military and sacrificed so much to do so.
1
He is a man of courage who does not run away, but remains at his post and fights against the enemy. - Socrates
It was cowardice and selfish self-absorption then and remains so today. The author can whine and politicize his alleged guilt all he wants. It doesn't change the facts.
It was cowardice and selfish self-absorption then and remains so today. The author can whine and politicize his alleged guilt all he wants. It doesn't change the facts.
It could be possible that instead of President of the United States, Donald thinks he's running for Monster of the Universe.
1
Having lived 18 years with a Vietnam combat veteran who was awarded the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and a Purple Heart, I know first hand the ongoing trauma combat vets live with for the rest of their lives. That Donald Trump would accept a veteran's Purple Heart with the comment "I always wanted one, this is a much easier way to get one" is despicable. Trump wants all the glory with none of the sacrifice. He claims avoiding venereal disease was his "own personal Vietnam". This man cannot be Commander in Chief!
4
I understand and appreciate your empathy and the respect that you have for those that chose a different path. But make no mistake - the Vietnam war was an immoral atrocity that wrecked lives across SE Asia and the US. The refusal to support it by the youth of that era changed American military recruitment forever . Can you imagine a draft now?
I too have the greatest respect for the guys that went - and suffered. They did as they thought best - and many paid a huge price.
Lets hope we have learned from it. Defense Secretary McNamara - who orchestrated so much of the immoral war - eventually admitted ... "We were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why."
As for Donald Trump - its not fair to ask him to be reasonable, or aware, or empathetic on this topic. His mind does not work that way. He is incapable.
I too have the greatest respect for the guys that went - and suffered. They did as they thought best - and many paid a huge price.
Lets hope we have learned from it. Defense Secretary McNamara - who orchestrated so much of the immoral war - eventually admitted ... "We were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why."
As for Donald Trump - its not fair to ask him to be reasonable, or aware, or empathetic on this topic. His mind does not work that way. He is incapable.
1
As the author wrote, a lot of people, especially those who had the means and opportunity to go to college (the most common deferment), got out of the draft and vietnam. Those who were either CO or who fled the draft because they felt the war was immoral or wrong made a stand at least.
Trump however falls into the class of people who avoided the war, but then have the gall to make it seem like he somehow made up for that, sacrificed. Those who went CO or fled the draft did sacrifice, those who dodged the draft faced imprisonment or exile, CO people often faced ridicule from other people, called cowards and worse. Trump was just a rich, arrogant kid who felt serving was beneath him, he had no moral qualms about Vietnam. That puts him at the level of hell with Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perl and the other neo cons who dodged vietnam but turned into gung ho charlies when it came to the military, and architected a policy in Iraq and other places that have killed many thousands of our troops, let a lot more mained, for basically nothing.
Trump however falls into the class of people who avoided the war, but then have the gall to make it seem like he somehow made up for that, sacrificed. Those who went CO or fled the draft did sacrifice, those who dodged the draft faced imprisonment or exile, CO people often faced ridicule from other people, called cowards and worse. Trump was just a rich, arrogant kid who felt serving was beneath him, he had no moral qualms about Vietnam. That puts him at the level of hell with Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perl and the other neo cons who dodged vietnam but turned into gung ho charlies when it came to the military, and architected a policy in Iraq and other places that have killed many thousands of our troops, let a lot more mained, for basically nothing.
3
The graphics accompanying this letter are brilliant. Well done.
1
To this former draft resister, the author is a self-righteous and pompous windbag.
"Funny how the truth can be twisted into something so dishonorable."
"If you give me six lines written by the most honest man,
I will find something in them to hang him." (Cardinal Richelieu)
"If you give me six lines written by the most honest man,
I will find something in them to hang him." (Cardinal Richelieu)
Pot calling the kettle black. I'm not impressed.
1
As Yogi Berra said, "It seems like deja vu all over again." In elections past, we heard nearly identical accusations and criticisms about Bill Clinton's "draft dodging" and George W. Bush's National Guard "cop-out." Now come Mr. Gup and the NY Times using a similar argument to denigrate Donald Trump. I'm not a Trump supporter, but I feel using Vietnam to make bald-faced personal political attacks such as these are truly disrespectful to those who served.
1
Then you're stupid.
The reason Littoe Hands is getting raked over the coals isn't because he didged the Vietnan draft but because he is eager to send other people to fight in wars he was too gutless to experience.
Americans are very forgiving but not when it comes to born to privlege draft dodging hypocrits like Little Hands.
The reason Littoe Hands is getting raked over the coals isn't because he didged the Vietnan draft but because he is eager to send other people to fight in wars he was too gutless to experience.
Americans are very forgiving but not when it comes to born to privlege draft dodging hypocrits like Little Hands.
Ted,
Your public confession does not excuse you & thousands of others that avoided the draft, especially those that ran away to Canada & then were pardoned & were allowed to return to the Untied States.The over 50.000 young men who died.in this useless war, unfortunately died in vain & those like you who shirked your responsibility by your wealth & connections are traitors.
I was drafted during the Korean War & could have been exempt from the draft for concussions I sustained playing ball, I preferred to serve my country, & it was the best thing I ever did.
Your public confession does not excuse you & thousands of others that avoided the draft, especially those that ran away to Canada & then were pardoned & were allowed to return to the Untied States.The over 50.000 young men who died.in this useless war, unfortunately died in vain & those like you who shirked your responsibility by your wealth & connections are traitors.
I was drafted during the Korean War & could have been exempt from the draft for concussions I sustained playing ball, I preferred to serve my country, & it was the best thing I ever did.
1
Ultraliberal: you write: "The over 50.000 young men who died.in this useless war, unfortunately died in vain & those like you who shirked your responsibility by your wealth & connections are traitors".
I'm having trouble with your logic. They are traitors because they refused or avoided being hapless pawns in a "useless" war (your words)? You rightly point out that 50,000 men and women died in vain, yet those who refused to risk death and injury for no reasonable justification, not to mention the moral culpability of killing other than in the direct defense of one's nation, are traitors?
I'm having trouble with your logic. They are traitors because they refused or avoided being hapless pawns in a "useless" war (your words)? You rightly point out that 50,000 men and women died in vain, yet those who refused to risk death and injury for no reasonable justification, not to mention the moral culpability of killing other than in the direct defense of one's nation, are traitors?
1
Trump lacks virtually all of the credentials to be elected President. As commander in chief, he has evidenced a complete lack of understanding of the nature and purpose of the military. He does not understand the idea of "serving" and does not respect those who do. His megalomania precludes him from creating or executing a foreign policy that is in the best interests of the country or our allies, rather it creates an inherent risk of escalating conflict, disunity and erosion of any global advances we've made. His unwillingness to share his tax returns are based not on humility regarding his wealth, rather, they would show his fiscal incompetence and demonstrate that the "Trump Empire" is nothing more than a façade. Finally, the social policies of a misogynistic narcissist would undoubtedly relegate us to being on par with Saudi Arabia, North Korea or, his favorite, Russia. We can't afford his price.
"I do not begrudge Mr. Trump’s using deferments that many others also pursued. That would be the height of hypocrisy. But I am dumbstruck that someone who carries the weight of having seen others go off in his stead — friends, neighbors, classmates, teammates — could sneer at those who gave so much to the country. This is a threshold test of basic humanity "
Well said!
Well said!
I missed the draft by a couple of years, but I do remember my parents talking about our Canadian relatives and that they were a good option in case I got called up. I am sure I would have taken that route if necessary.
But it wasn't necessary, and I feel no guilt over plans that never materialized.
However, what disturbed me at the time, and still does, was the treatment returning soldiers were subjected to. Men, hurt and shocked and broken, returned home to be spat on and face atrocious accusations. If the war didn't break them, the peace did.
Since then we've engaged in many more wars, all the while living our business-as-usual lives here at home. I've made no sacrifices for these wars, save perhaps for a few extra tax dollars that I can easily afford. I don't understand what it's like to be in a war. I've never had the nightmares and PTSD that soldiers carry throughout their lives. I've never lost a child to war, or even a good friend.
Still, I think about it. And the older I get, the more I believe that we all need to have some skin in the game if we go to war. We all need to sacrifice and feel some pain if we support the grave decision to kill others in far off lands. We need to, so that we think long and hard before engaging in our next war; before we kill kids, American and foreign; before we risk the lives of others from the safety of our quiet living rooms.
God knows, I've done so little. I don't want a president who's done even less.
But it wasn't necessary, and I feel no guilt over plans that never materialized.
However, what disturbed me at the time, and still does, was the treatment returning soldiers were subjected to. Men, hurt and shocked and broken, returned home to be spat on and face atrocious accusations. If the war didn't break them, the peace did.
Since then we've engaged in many more wars, all the while living our business-as-usual lives here at home. I've made no sacrifices for these wars, save perhaps for a few extra tax dollars that I can easily afford. I don't understand what it's like to be in a war. I've never had the nightmares and PTSD that soldiers carry throughout their lives. I've never lost a child to war, or even a good friend.
Still, I think about it. And the older I get, the more I believe that we all need to have some skin in the game if we go to war. We all need to sacrifice and feel some pain if we support the grave decision to kill others in far off lands. We need to, so that we think long and hard before engaging in our next war; before we kill kids, American and foreign; before we risk the lives of others from the safety of our quiet living rooms.
God knows, I've done so little. I don't want a president who's done even less.
1
We, people in general, ordinary citizens, politicians, etc., show a lack of compassion for just about every one and every thing. Donald Trump is nothing new. About the only people we have compassion for are the 1%'ers. We're afraid they are going to overtaxed, overworked, saddled with government regulation (like no cheating, no stealing). We're concerned that their heirs are going to saddled with an inheritance tax, a "death tax", as miniscule as it might be.
2
My lottery number was high enough that I was never in danger of being drafted yet I feel no guilt and, while I respect those who did serve (as well as the thousands of protesters who helped to shorten that "war") I do not feel that I owe them anything. Viet Nam was a totally unnecessary war as the country was no threat to America or our freedoms. I find this revisionist guilt among those of us who did not serve in what was a "mistake" ridiculous.
I was in grade school during the Vietnam era. Every night I remember the drama of the Vietnam war at home and abroad was constantly playing in the background on TV. To my young eyes Vietnam looked like the scariest place on earth as soldiers trudged through the jungle, rifles in hand, ready to battle against an unseen foe. Then the scene shifted to show other young men at the various college campuses yelling "Hell no we won't go" as they burned little bits of paper (draft cards) in defiance of being sent overseas to fight in what they thought was already a lost cause.
Isn't America divided enough without pitting Vietnam Vets against those who resisted going off to war?
Isn't America divided enough without pitting Vietnam Vets against those who resisted going off to war?
Trump's enduring malady isn't a spur, but a spuriousness that permeates his whole being. Even in the midst of this unbelievable conflict whose flames he keeps feeding he has the gall to accept an elderly veteran's Purple Heart with the statement of a five-year-old, that he's "always wanted one" and that getting one earned by another's real sacrifice is "easier this way"! This callous behavior and obsessive escalation is a template of what Trump would be as president, because it is what he is, period; and Hillary said, there is no other Trump. And this one needs to be dumped - NOW.
This is wonderful. For too long the media dutifully reported on what Trump was saying, but now they've realized, en masse, that the real story is him: his character, his behavior, his personality disorder(s). That's where the danger lies. And thanks to his horrible behavior toward the proud and clear-thinking Khans, it appears that permission has been granted to focus on just who this guy is. Finally, we've reached the root cause for all that he says and does, and soon enough the carcass will be picked clean.
1
There really isn't any blame for avoiding what was essentially an illegal war, perpetrated on the American public by lies, just as the Iraq fiasco was. You sir, are not the one who should feel shame. Those who would send young men into combat without being honest to the people, and those who support their lies are the shameful ones. I was in the Navy during that period, and decided to join rather than wait to be drafted, but I was also very much against the war. I'm still torn about how I feel about those who decided to avoid being drafted, but have come to accept that we all must make individual decisions about such things. My purpose was mainly not to be killed for something I did not believe in, or saw as a threat to my country, but on the same level, I didn't want to kill for those reasons either. My problem with the Bush's, Cheney's, and now Trump is, they would have no problem sending someone else's child off to war, while seeing themselves as far to valuable to put at the same risk.
3
Professor,
That soldiers where called "baby killers" was hardly the norm and more so an urban myth promoted by the Right.
I was anti-war (alum Berkeley demonstrations 1969 age 14/Reagan's violent National Guard), Those damaged men coming back where my classmates big brothers. They were sad, but, did not condemn my antiwar stance. Many thought our government was responsible for their condition. (PTSD/drug addiction/and the self dehumanization coming from fighting a people-backed insurgency).
There were a very few disturbed returnees who referred to the Vietnamese as sub-human/monkeys. I certainly did argue with one of them.
I am worried about the stigmatization of Trump and am worried that our president went over the line, yesterday. He surely added to the bitter cultural divide festering in our country. He harmed his own efforts at reuniting our people. Never could vote for him, BUT, Hillary's three engagements with Regime Change disqualifies her leadership in my eyes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image
https://www.thenation.com/article/trump-wants-to-stop-the-new-cold-war-b...
That soldiers where called "baby killers" was hardly the norm and more so an urban myth promoted by the Right.
I was anti-war (alum Berkeley demonstrations 1969 age 14/Reagan's violent National Guard), Those damaged men coming back where my classmates big brothers. They were sad, but, did not condemn my antiwar stance. Many thought our government was responsible for their condition. (PTSD/drug addiction/and the self dehumanization coming from fighting a people-backed insurgency).
There were a very few disturbed returnees who referred to the Vietnamese as sub-human/monkeys. I certainly did argue with one of them.
I am worried about the stigmatization of Trump and am worried that our president went over the line, yesterday. He surely added to the bitter cultural divide festering in our country. He harmed his own efforts at reuniting our people. Never could vote for him, BUT, Hillary's three engagements with Regime Change disqualifies her leadership in my eyes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image
https://www.thenation.com/article/trump-wants-to-stop-the-new-cold-war-b...
3
"Sneer." Beautifully concise.
Also, precise and accurate description of Trump's method--never pay your debts.
Also, precise and accurate description of Trump's method--never pay your debts.
Trump is like any other son of privilege who was born on third base and thought he hit a triple. He thinks he owes nothing to nobody...unless it's his father who gave him that "small" loan of 1 million dollars to get started. Those suckers who vote for him are in for a shock if they actually believe he will do anything for them. As Tony Schwartz, the real author of "The Art Of The Deal" said in a New Yorker interview, Trump would run for emperor if he could. He just loves the notoriety and attention. He has no interest in governing, just running.
Interesting quote by the Roman poet Horace......."Make money, money by fair means if you can, if not, but any means money"
I was a student at a Virginia women's college from 1969-1973. I remember seeing an older student with her boyfriend, who was in the Marines, my freshman year. He came back my sophomore year, too, but in a wheelchair with a cloth covering what was left of his lower face. She still smiled lovingly at him. I have never forgotten the tragedy of that sad conflict and the bravery of the young(primarily) men who went to it. I knew many who avoided it by deferments; more than one went to medical school and became Navy doctors. I have never heard any of those speak ill of the souls who served. Mr. Trump is stunning in his shameful behavior.
7
Thank you for this sensitive response to a courageous article.
Instead of asking what draft dodging cowards and careerists think about Trump, why don't we ask those who are actively serving?
Instead of asking an Islamist immigration attorney, who specializes in helping wealthy Saudis immigrate into the U.S., and who before that worked for the white shoe law firm that represented the Saudis here in the U.S. and helped them give large amounts of money to the Clintons (you know, that simple, not at all political gold star parent Khizr Khan), why don't we ask those who are actively serving in the military about their thoughts on Trump?
They've been polled, repeatedly. And these polls show that our active service members overwhelmingly favor Trump, with the combat arms and front line heavy branches favoring him by even bigger margins. Go look it up. Google is your friend.
There's a story in this somewhere, because the military skews young, and we've been told of the hostility among the young towards Trump. Why is it that young people who consider themselves to be patriotic, and who back it up with service, are backing Trump by such a large margin? That's what I'd like to hear.
But the last person whose opinion should be consulted is someone like this professor's. Not only does he have only the slightest of contact with the world of those who serve, but he's so detached from it that he doesn't even register the fact that those who serve prefer Trump by an overwhelming margin.
Instead of asking an Islamist immigration attorney, who specializes in helping wealthy Saudis immigrate into the U.S., and who before that worked for the white shoe law firm that represented the Saudis here in the U.S. and helped them give large amounts of money to the Clintons (you know, that simple, not at all political gold star parent Khizr Khan), why don't we ask those who are actively serving in the military about their thoughts on Trump?
They've been polled, repeatedly. And these polls show that our active service members overwhelmingly favor Trump, with the combat arms and front line heavy branches favoring him by even bigger margins. Go look it up. Google is your friend.
There's a story in this somewhere, because the military skews young, and we've been told of the hostility among the young towards Trump. Why is it that young people who consider themselves to be patriotic, and who back it up with service, are backing Trump by such a large margin? That's what I'd like to hear.
But the last person whose opinion should be consulted is someone like this professor's. Not only does he have only the slightest of contact with the world of those who serve, but he's so detached from it that he doesn't even register the fact that those who serve prefer Trump by an overwhelming margin.
1
When I was drafted in 1973, I showed up at the Armed Forces Induction Center, and I refused induction. It was the most important vote I ever cast, and I'm sensing -- years later -- that many now regret that they did not cast their vote with those of us who refused or resisted.
In the case of the draft, I hear Boomers say they didn't vote for the war, and they didn't vote against it. They abstained, though they knew others would go in their place. Almost like the Civil War 100 years earlier -- people bought their way out.
Perhaps now these Boomers will teach their children and grandchildren that you can't truly abstain in situations like this one. Silence is consent. What did Edmund Burke say about the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil . . . .?
In the case of the draft, I hear Boomers say they didn't vote for the war, and they didn't vote against it. They abstained, though they knew others would go in their place. Almost like the Civil War 100 years earlier -- people bought their way out.
Perhaps now these Boomers will teach their children and grandchildren that you can't truly abstain in situations like this one. Silence is consent. What did Edmund Burke say about the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil . . . .?
1
Many of us did serve in Viet Nam. Many volunteered more were drafted. But however we arrived "in country," we all served and sacrificed. Many others avoided this service, some from conviction, more from fear. For them a quiet accounting with their own conscience is all that i would hope or require.
But this man Trump, who mocks courage, love of country, sacrifice and services was and is simply a coward. There is much in our country that requires change, much about which we need be concerned and afraid. He is not the answer. Anyone who believes he will make the country or their lives better is simply a fool.
But this man Trump, who mocks courage, love of country, sacrifice and services was and is simply a coward. There is much in our country that requires change, much about which we need be concerned and afraid. He is not the answer. Anyone who believes he will make the country or their lives better is simply a fool.
3
I don't like Trump, but this article was pathetic in both thought and sentiment. I served as an infantryman in the Army (1st Cavalry) in 1965-66. My brother served on a Navy aircraft carrier (USS Forrestal) during that war. I have never felt especially qualified to do or be anything because of that experience, and I have never resented or judged the men who didn't go. I don't expect anything from them in thought, feeling, or action, and i don't feel that they should be in any way constrained in terms of their opinions or ambitions.
I don't know what motivated Mr. Gup to write this piece: regret, remorse, resentment, annoyance, anger, whatever, but he should just go back to whatever it was he was doing before he thought to put pen to paper and try to put this bad piece of work behind him. Trump is no worse than Bill Clinton, who said after receiving his draft notice that he despised the military that he would later command.
I don't know what motivated Mr. Gup to write this piece: regret, remorse, resentment, annoyance, anger, whatever, but he should just go back to whatever it was he was doing before he thought to put pen to paper and try to put this bad piece of work behind him. Trump is no worse than Bill Clinton, who said after receiving his draft notice that he despised the military that he would later command.
4
I of course did not dodge the Vietnam draft, I'm only in my mid 30's. But a part of me often wonders if I shirked on my duty as an American by not going to Iraq. I didn't even agree with the war, and often protested it while in college. But still, did I "dodge" the Vietnam of my generation? I don't know, but this lingering question will mean that I will forever respect those that did what I did not, and chose to serve. To imagine someone from my generation showing any of our veterans such disrespect is abhorrent to me, it is unfathamable, it is discusting. Mr. Trump, have you no decency?
2
Men eligible for the Vietnam draft made decisions. What's important now is whether they've learned from their decisions and what they've learned. You could have dodged the draft and grown as a person and developed compassion and empathy and perhaps survivor's guilt.
The issue is that Donald dodged the draft and displays no sign that he learned compassion or developed a real respect for those who did. On the contrary, he says he doesn't like POWs (probably because they are "losers"), attacks a mourning mother for her grief-stricken silence, and even has the gull to proclaim "I always wanted a purple heart." What type of person who dodged the draft flippantly claims almost 50 years later that he wishes he were injured in war?
The issue is that Donald dodged the draft and displays no sign that he learned compassion or developed a real respect for those who did. On the contrary, he says he doesn't like POWs (probably because they are "losers"), attacks a mourning mother for her grief-stricken silence, and even has the gull to proclaim "I always wanted a purple heart." What type of person who dodged the draft flippantly claims almost 50 years later that he wishes he were injured in war?
4
I turned 18 in 1970 and feel absolutely no guilt in refusing to help the government of the United States promote a war where the operative principle was that a nation of Buddhist rice farmers could be converted into Jeffersonian democrats by thr expedient of dropping enough high explosives on them.
John Kelly
John Kelly
I have a similar story; I lucked out via the draft lottery. I also agree with your view of respect for those that served despite my anti Vietnam war stance. I was a protester deeply opposed to that war. I regret that I did not do more to stop that war including going to jail as a means to serve my country in this case, to attempt to save it from pursuing a disastrous, wrongheaded and immoral war. Despite my opposition I nevertheless respected those who felt that it was their duty to join the military. I had friends who served and died. I can not say that I sacrificed anything and I am not proud of that. Trump should be ashamed of his brazen attitude and his insulting comments to the parents of the fallen soldier.
2
Historical hindsight has not made the Vietnam war any more justifiable than when it was waged, in fact the opposite is true. The war was unnecessary and therefore immoral. This is not a reflection on those who served in the ranks, whether by choice or due to factors defined by race, ethnicity and socio-economics. I respect them for enduring hardship, dismemberment and death. But unlike Mr. Gup, I feel no guilt whatsoever for not having served.
1
I think "privileged" would be a better term than "favored", which suggests a broader group of Americans supported allowing specific individuals exemption from the draft, whereas it was really those who were willing to pay, or make excuses, to find a way to get an exemption.
I'm not saying there were many who were eager to go to the front lines for an unclear cause and I cannot say what I would have done (my father opted to enlist in the Navy before being eligible for the draft, hoping his time in Vietnam would be further away from direct combat (it largely was - he was in Saigon)), but the author was not "favored" by anyone but perhaps his own friends and family.
I'm not saying there were many who were eager to go to the front lines for an unclear cause and I cannot say what I would have done (my father opted to enlist in the Navy before being eligible for the draft, hoping his time in Vietnam would be further away from direct combat (it largely was - he was in Saigon)), but the author was not "favored" by anyone but perhaps his own friends and family.
Dodging the Vietnam draft is also a legacy of Bill Clinton. Hillary is silent on this issue because of Bill's history but also because she could have volunteered to go and help but didn't. Nothing stopped women from getting involved.
Trumps's Vietnam legacy is no different so it's not worth spending time on unless we want to put the Clintons under the microscope and watch them squirm. I would not mind doing it as it might be worth it just to put them on the same plane and explain why they are so much better than Trump and other draft dodgers and how they can have any appetite to send Americans into war in the next 4 to 8 years.
What Trump does today all falls on him and that is independent of Vietnam machinations.
Trumps's Vietnam legacy is no different so it's not worth spending time on unless we want to put the Clintons under the microscope and watch them squirm. I would not mind doing it as it might be worth it just to put them on the same plane and explain why they are so much better than Trump and other draft dodgers and how they can have any appetite to send Americans into war in the next 4 to 8 years.
What Trump does today all falls on him and that is independent of Vietnam machinations.
1
There is a huge difference between getting student deferments and paying a tame doctor to give you a false diagnosis. Which face it, we all know he did. Behavior like that is built into the core of his personality.
They DID NOT insult a Gold Star mother and father. Donald Trump DID.
That is the problem.
That is the problem.
I understand the personal sacrifice soldiers make when they serve- willingly or not willingly. Nothing can detract from that personal sacrifice.
But I think it is important to make a distinction between wars fought to defend this nation, its people and its institutions and wars that are fought for different reasons.
Vietnam was no threat to us or our people. We should honor our troops for their service.
But sometimes wars need not be fought.
But I think it is important to make a distinction between wars fought to defend this nation, its people and its institutions and wars that are fought for different reasons.
Vietnam was no threat to us or our people. We should honor our troops for their service.
But sometimes wars need not be fought.
1
I seem to recall that Clinton #1 also deftly avoided military service at exactly the same time, and Clinton #2 tried for a bit to peddle a faux tale of her considering joining the Marines; and then of course there is the faux tale of her under fire with Secretary of State. Trump will lose the election because he does not control what he says, but his opponent and her First Husband were also successful service avoiders and so Mr. Gup's tale of guilt also extends to the Clintons.
1
Maybe so regarding Clinton avoiding the service, but he DIDN'T insult any of the Vietnam era veterans or present military people when he was running for President or when he was President.
Nominee Trump insulted a military hero when he himself avoided military service.
Nominee Trump insulted a military hero when he himself avoided military service.
I would never think poorly of anyone who willingly, or unwillingly, served honorably in Vietnam. I too was drafted, but the Army had a sufficient number of people already in my specialty..( I enrolled in ROTC, instead of going in right away). In retrospect, I'm happy it turned out that way for me, as I had no desire to serve in Vietnam. My thoughts were pretty much aligned with those of Muhammed Ali. I knew at age 19 that this was a falsely construed war for absolutely suspect reasons and I was determined that I wasn't going to participate. Fortunately, the Army didn't really need me...in 1968. I respect all those who chose, by whatever means, to avoid service in that senseless war. Nothing good came out of that long misadventure.
4
What we do have in common is that we were the many who didn’t have access to the intelligence that President Johnson had. The facts that there never was a second Gulf of Tonkin incident, but rather than appear weak, thousands were conscripted or volunteered into armed service. I feel I along with most of the young and talented were duped by our government. Like Iraq, VietNam was an illegal war and should not have been.
There are many ways to serve one’s country and we all should serve, but honestly the military may be the easiest manner to have that mantle bestowed upon us; who doesn’t recognize time in the military as service, very few I imagine. Donald Trump deserves our scorn for his current behaviors. You sir probably do not. Again we were all acting in a vacuum of intelligence. Mohammed Ali and others got it right.
For all the bombs I delivered off-loading ships I will not forgive myself, nor my commanders of that time, some new better and did nothing. I applaud the VietNamese' resiliency and being vibrant players on the world stage these days. We need a strong, agile, well resourced military, but as important we need leaders who are stronger, more agile, and better resourced making decisions of life and death for many. I think Obama was such a person, I hope Hillary will be, and Trump should spend the next few years in remedial school.
There are many ways to serve one’s country and we all should serve, but honestly the military may be the easiest manner to have that mantle bestowed upon us; who doesn’t recognize time in the military as service, very few I imagine. Donald Trump deserves our scorn for his current behaviors. You sir probably do not. Again we were all acting in a vacuum of intelligence. Mohammed Ali and others got it right.
For all the bombs I delivered off-loading ships I will not forgive myself, nor my commanders of that time, some new better and did nothing. I applaud the VietNamese' resiliency and being vibrant players on the world stage these days. We need a strong, agile, well resourced military, but as important we need leaders who are stronger, more agile, and better resourced making decisions of life and death for many. I think Obama was such a person, I hope Hillary will be, and Trump should spend the next few years in remedial school.
6
Hillary Clinton is contending for the leadership of the war party and the Democrats are using this controversy to advance her campaign. That is what this debate is really about, if we view it as a political question, not a personal question. My concern is, how long will we allow politicians to exploit the soldiery to advance their war agenda? "Support the troops" is a slogan to dampen and mislead anti-war sentiments.
1
Controversy?
But there is no controversy.
Trump dodged the Vietnam draft.
Those are the facts...and the are incontrovertible.
But there is no controversy.
Trump dodged the Vietnam draft.
Those are the facts...and the are incontrovertible.
I have frequently read stories about men who said they faked out psychiatrists to say they were mentally ill to avoid the draft. I wonder if any of them can present any documentation that they actually managed to do so. This isn't just an issue of the educated being able to do this as I have also heard many stories of criminals saying they also could fake out psychiatrists without difficulty.
I was a big fan of Trump and am still a big fan of Trump's policies. There is nothing wrong with deporting millions of illegals. They work for peanuts in cash and prevent lower-skill Americans from earning a livable wage. There's nothing wrong with calling for fair trade, when China floods our market yet excludes Google, Facebook, Amazon, and the Times from competing there. There's nothing wrong with choosing immigrants from places other than countries with a record of terrorism.
But his fight with the Khans is unacceptable. Their statements are wrong in many respects, but having sacrificed their son for America, they get to say any damn thing they want without repercussion.
Before Democrats gloat too much, realize that there 5x more Republicans than Democrats serving in the armed forces, according to a recent Military Times survey. Draft dodging Bill and Hillary didn't sacrifice a thing either. Their comparative advantage is that they are not stupid enough to talk trash about someone who did.
But his fight with the Khans is unacceptable. Their statements are wrong in many respects, but having sacrificed their son for America, they get to say any damn thing they want without repercussion.
Before Democrats gloat too much, realize that there 5x more Republicans than Democrats serving in the armed forces, according to a recent Military Times survey. Draft dodging Bill and Hillary didn't sacrifice a thing either. Their comparative advantage is that they are not stupid enough to talk trash about someone who did.
3
5x? Not among the officer corp.
I spent six years from 1968 to 1974 in France, having deserted the Army. My plan was always to go into exile rather than go to war and when I was drafted I left for France. Under pressure from family I did return for induction but left after 9 months when my conscience won out over my compromised decision. I knew I could not live with myself if I didn't stand up for my convictions. I was able to return as part of the Nixon pardon and was happy to return to my country, which by now was extricating itself from this war. I still abhor the senseless loss of life on both sides and am frustrated by the continued aggression by our country in other parts of the world. Those who served deserve our support, but those who wrap themselves in the flag of patriotism, the "my country right or wrong" believers, are too often sending young boys to die for nothing.
3
The comment about having always wanted a Purple Heart stunned me. I grew up in the years after World War II and there were lots of veterans of both World War I and World War II amongst the people with who I was acquainted. Some had suffered minor injuries from combat and while they were eligible for the Purple Heart felt that they did not deserve it in consideration of the deaths and injuries suffered by others with who they had served. The Purple Heart represented extreme sacrifices which they were grateful to have avoided. Not being so seriously injured was reward enough for them. The Purple Heart was certainly not something which people who received them were anxious to acquire. That Trump could say what he did meant that he did not understand what it represents.
4
Vietnam forced men of my generation to make hard choices, especially those of us from the working class. Most of us had fathers or uncles who served in World War II and Korea. We cut our teeth on their stories of courage and heroism, sometimes even visions of John Wayne entered into our calculations. Doing your duty was more than an expression, it was expected of us. But for those of use who went to college, and were the first in our families to do so, the choices became more stark, especially as we neared graduation. What choices did we have? If we decided whether to flee to Canada, we no doubt would have severed our ties with our families. If we refused induction, we not only would be felons, but many of our peers would sneer and consider us cowards. If we found an available slot in the National Guard or Reserves, we'd have all the comforts of going to Canada, without out the disfavor of fleeing our native land. Even more problematic, our families never contemplated finding a friendly physician to attest to a non-existent malady in order to bamboozle the doctors at the induction center. For me personally, I accept my induction and a combat tour in Vietnam. Donald J. Trump faced similar choices. He selected working for his father, making money and chasing women. He has no comprehension of the meaning sacrifice or the pain that war causes. More troubling Trump's responses to the Mr. and Mrs. Khan, reflects either a void in his soul or a personality serious flaw.
1
As someone who was born in the early 1980s, I deeply appreciate pieces like this one. While I cannot speak for everyone in my age group, I can say that I’m not sure I will ever be able to identify with the emotions or experiences of those who lived through the Vietnam-era and the draft. I can read accounts of those who were and were not drafted; I can talk to my parents and members of their generation; I can watch documentaries and news reports from that time. Ultimately, though, the best I can hope for is some vague guess of what it felt like to live with the anxiety of wondering if I or my loved ones would be drafted.
I would never vote for Trump, and the possibility of a Trump presidency truly frightens me. But I’m just not sure I can judge him or anyone else who avoided serving, because I do not know what I would do if faced with the same situation. I like to think of myself as patriotic, and I worked for the federal government for nearly a decade. However, it is very easy to tell myself I would serve if drafted. The reality, though, is hard to imagine.
I would never vote for Trump, and the possibility of a Trump presidency truly frightens me. But I’m just not sure I can judge him or anyone else who avoided serving, because I do not know what I would do if faced with the same situation. I like to think of myself as patriotic, and I worked for the federal government for nearly a decade. However, it is very easy to tell myself I would serve if drafted. The reality, though, is hard to imagine.
When we're honest about war and the men (and now women) who fight, as well as those who seek and receive deferments, we must admit that not every soldier is a hero, or every one who sought refuge in privilege a coward. Men who received the highest decorations left the service to become career criminals, corrupt politicians, and professionals worthy of our contempt.
The debate goes back to Greeks and and Biblical sources in the West. This said, I object not so much to Candidate Trump's stupid (or calculated) response to the Mr. Khan, as to the Clinton Camp who presented Khan to the American public as a paradigm of American sacrifice.
To my mind, Khan, by agreeing to play the role of grieved parent and provocateur to a globally televised audience, forfeited genuine sympathy. He won only the reflexive kind of recognition exploited by opportunistic politicians, who recite their prepared statements before going out to play a round of golf, a set of tennis, or out to dinner.
It this dust storm of insincere commentary, an important truth was ignored: Pain, in an of itself is not a badge of honor. It needs to be remembered that Trump's comments were not directed at the son, but the father, who by virtue of selling his son's honor to the Clinton Campaign, deserves to be called out.
A more honest man would not only have accused only Mr. Trump of possessing a black soul, but also every Democrat, starting with Mrs. Clinton, who supported that criminal enterprise.
The debate goes back to Greeks and and Biblical sources in the West. This said, I object not so much to Candidate Trump's stupid (or calculated) response to the Mr. Khan, as to the Clinton Camp who presented Khan to the American public as a paradigm of American sacrifice.
To my mind, Khan, by agreeing to play the role of grieved parent and provocateur to a globally televised audience, forfeited genuine sympathy. He won only the reflexive kind of recognition exploited by opportunistic politicians, who recite their prepared statements before going out to play a round of golf, a set of tennis, or out to dinner.
It this dust storm of insincere commentary, an important truth was ignored: Pain, in an of itself is not a badge of honor. It needs to be remembered that Trump's comments were not directed at the son, but the father, who by virtue of selling his son's honor to the Clinton Campaign, deserves to be called out.
A more honest man would not only have accused only Mr. Trump of possessing a black soul, but also every Democrat, starting with Mrs. Clinton, who supported that criminal enterprise.
No draft dodger "owes a debt." That is misplaced guilt. Viet Nam was a war against a perceived threat of the spread of Communism, a pet concern of President Kennedy. We were not defending America, America's territory, or any tangible American anything, and were warned by France not to put troops there or we'd never get out. You cannot pay for deaths with guilt that you did not go, because that would have done nothing to change Kennedy's concern (to use the word loosely), Nixon's ideology ("Peace with Honor"), guarantee a win, or guarantee anyone's life. That responsibility was not up to draft dodgers. In our deep sorrow and unchangeable regret about the losses in Viet Nam, we must understand this. It is up to us to use facts about how and why our government escalated military intervention in Viet Nam, because intervention still occurs. To expect guilt from draft dodgers is a cop-out and unhistorical. To expect respect and understanding for the turmoil of those who served is what we need to do, forever. Honor our young men, our young men, freely, because admiration tainted by guilt is not full admiration.
3
Participation of any kind in the genocide against the Vietnamese made one immoral. Therefore, the only moral stance was an evasion of participation by any means necessary.
That our professor of journalism fails to see this makes him unfit to judge Trump: Gup's 'guilt' is nothing but bloviated moral posturing that's based on both his own ignorance and the moral emptiness of follow-the-crowd conformity. And he now teacher our children?
Obama is correct in assessing Trump as unfit to be president. yet even if he evaded the draft for only personal reasons, the outcome of his behavior as a non-participator makes him the moral superior of anyone who went.
That our professor of journalism fails to see this makes him unfit to judge Trump: Gup's 'guilt' is nothing but bloviated moral posturing that's based on both his own ignorance and the moral emptiness of follow-the-crowd conformity. And he now teacher our children?
Obama is correct in assessing Trump as unfit to be president. yet even if he evaded the draft for only personal reasons, the outcome of his behavior as a non-participator makes him the moral superior of anyone who went.
TRUMP Has been described by a writer who knows him well as having no conscience, no remorse and no sense of shame, among other pathological characteristics. To those I add that he seems to suffer from frontal lobe dementia, complicated by a narcissistic personality disorder. Trump exhibits no sense of shame, obligation to others or empathy. The fact that Trump says that he is OK being compared with Hitler qualifies as an instant disqualification in my opinion. By accepting the comparison (which I happen to think is quite apt), Trump openly states that he identifies with one of the most monstrous, inhuman and destructive people in the history of humankind. He exhibits extremely poor insight and judgment. Trump confuses 7/11 and 9/11. He tweeted that Paris is in Germany. Trump denies having said numerous things; after his denial videos are shown in which he says precisely when he denied saying. All of his statements are subjective and self-referential. I have not observed him state any objective facts clearly. It's all about him 24/7/365. The people I know who have bone spurs usually show some sort of difficulty with specific movements and or balance. The only place that Trump is unbalanced visibly is his mind. GOP politicians seems to think that if they say Trump is unfit that it will offer them some protection at the ballot box. The train has left the station. Almost nobody splits tickets anymore. Democrats are waiting for them! Duck Trump's Rump Dump GOP!
I was also a beneficiary of a low draft number that spared me from confronting a moral conundrum that bothers me and many men of my age to this day. I was and am a patriot who grew up the son of a WWII and Korean War veteran. We were taught to respect the service and sacrifice of those who served and those who died while respecting the right of conscientious objectors to alternate service. I could not claim conscientious objection but I did strongly believe the Vietnam war was conducted in violation of the Constitution and lacked the moral justification of the wars my father served in. The lottery spared me a direct confrontation with my conscience and my government but I maintain the deepest respect for those who objected and served.
There are, and remain among us men like me, coming of age at the end of the Vietnam war who actively opposed the war and refused to serve on moral and ethical grounds. We also did our best to convince others that the war was unethical. By the late 1960s, those who CHOSE to go to Vietnam, and many did, ignored what was then (and remains) obvious. I feel not the least bit guilty for opposing the war and I have little patience for those who, complain they were not welcomed home (at the time) with open arms. Those that made the political choice (excluding the poor who had no choice) made a personal mistake and should have known better. HOWEVER, that said, those like Donald Trump, with privilege, who faked illness for deferments, not out of any sense of ethical and moral conviction but out of fear or simply because they could not be bothered, were and are cowards. Although the draft and war ended before I had to make the decision, older friends who shared my political convictions either went through the difficult process of officially declaring themselves conscientious objectors, left their families and friends for other countries, or went to prison. I would have no compunction what-so-ever in having one of them be commander in chief, quite the contrary. However a coward should never be commander in chief.
1
I like to share my thoughts following this wonderful article, as word of respect to all those who served their country, at any time the country needed them.
I came to USA in 1971 on a green card. Draft was still alive even as the conflict was abating. The law required holders of green card to register with nearest Selective Services (draft) office. I had no hesitation in registering, in fact, I registered within my first week here. Almost all fellow Indians advised me how to dodge the draft on religious beliefs (CO for those who remember) and called me stupid when I refused to dodge. They did not understand why I signed up to serve the military of USA which was not my motherland. I did not debate with them; in my mind it was straightforward, that if I had come here for opportunities to advance my personal life, then I owe this country something in return. To me it meant that if the country needs me, I have to rise above my personal resistances to do it for the country. I'll add, that personally I did not think USA should have gone to Vietnam from reading many accounts/news/reports about the war for years before I landed here. But my duty was not to judge the history, but to do what I should do for the country which has given me a place to live and grow. My number did not come up, but I shall say even today, that had it come up - I would have gone; it does not matter if someone believes that today or not. I know in my heart what I would have done.
Respect!
I came to USA in 1971 on a green card. Draft was still alive even as the conflict was abating. The law required holders of green card to register with nearest Selective Services (draft) office. I had no hesitation in registering, in fact, I registered within my first week here. Almost all fellow Indians advised me how to dodge the draft on religious beliefs (CO for those who remember) and called me stupid when I refused to dodge. They did not understand why I signed up to serve the military of USA which was not my motherland. I did not debate with them; in my mind it was straightforward, that if I had come here for opportunities to advance my personal life, then I owe this country something in return. To me it meant that if the country needs me, I have to rise above my personal resistances to do it for the country. I'll add, that personally I did not think USA should have gone to Vietnam from reading many accounts/news/reports about the war for years before I landed here. But my duty was not to judge the history, but to do what I should do for the country which has given me a place to live and grow. My number did not come up, but I shall say even today, that had it come up - I would have gone; it does not matter if someone believes that today or not. I know in my heart what I would have done.
Respect!
1
The author wishes to make amends to the people who served, and now puts them on a pedestal. Yet Vietnam never posed a real threat to the US. What people now call "a fight against legitimate enemy" to "defend our country" was actually a generation manipulated into giving their lives for militaristic expansion of the US influence in the world. People bravely fought for the cause that was unjust and wrong. Bravery of the soldiers does not excuse the US aggression toward many countries, including Vietnam. As for Trump, he does not only lacks empathy, but also basic knowledge to fit for a middle-level management position, let alone professional appreciation and understanding of how things work on global scale. Only in the US such a person can become a nominee in the first place. Congratulations, my fellow Americans!
1
When I saw the clip of that veteran giving Trump his Purple Heart my mouth fell open. A lot of mixed emotions arose. First was Trump clearly missed the intense depth of that gesture by saying "That was easy". What an a-hole. There is no amount of coaching or repair thwt his staff can do to correct his total abscence of empathy or his total inability to understand what others are feeling or what they have been through If that had been any decent man who never gave a thing to this country that person would have been so shocked and surprised that he
could be thankful for the sentiment but could not accept an honor so profound and personal and handed the heart back to him. I would never be able to accept a gift like that no matter how well intentioned. ( it was equivalent to me hqnding my M.D. degree to someone). The second emotion was that I couldn't unerstand why that veteran would give an honor bestowed on him by the people of the United States for his sacrifice would give it away much less to a guy who has the emotions of a turtle. It seemed insulting to me and to our country. No body is perfect and I am sure this gift of his resulted from his unresolved feelings of guilt and resentment for what he gave to his country but it still deserves the respect of not being a politicized statement. It is this country"s gesture of recognition for a personal sacrifice that he went through himself, not something you give as a present like for a special birthday to a friend.
could be thankful for the sentiment but could not accept an honor so profound and personal and handed the heart back to him. I would never be able to accept a gift like that no matter how well intentioned. ( it was equivalent to me hqnding my M.D. degree to someone). The second emotion was that I couldn't unerstand why that veteran would give an honor bestowed on him by the people of the United States for his sacrifice would give it away much less to a guy who has the emotions of a turtle. It seemed insulting to me and to our country. No body is perfect and I am sure this gift of his resulted from his unresolved feelings of guilt and resentment for what he gave to his country but it still deserves the respect of not being a politicized statement. It is this country"s gesture of recognition for a personal sacrifice that he went through himself, not something you give as a present like for a special birthday to a friend.
I was a kid during the Vietnam War. I lived in small town where everyone knew everyone. I also knew the families who'd lost a son in Vietnam, along with a number of friends' older brothers who had been there. We were far removed from the demonstrations and angst that occurred then. However, I can tell you that when we walked or rode our bikes by that certain house on Smith Street, we lowered our voices to a hush out of respect for the woman (and man and girl) who lived there and lost a son and brother in Vietnam. Even as kids we recognized that that sacrifice was important and worthy of reverence, and that that family was special above all others.
I joined the all volunteer military later and served over 20 years on active duty. I pity those who didn't avail themselves of this most special fraternity of service. The author of this piece is right about the duty he owes, but he doesn't understand the full measure of what that service meant and he never can. I think much of the ugliness that pervades America in politics, traffic, Black Friday shopping, sports and whatever other arena you can think of, comes in part due to lack of shared sacrifice. Charlie Rangel's idea about reinstituting the draft was good because he thought it would teach people to work together as Americans again. The Greatest Generation was that, in part, because of what they quietly accomplished after their service was complete, but was possible because of their service.
I joined the all volunteer military later and served over 20 years on active duty. I pity those who didn't avail themselves of this most special fraternity of service. The author of this piece is right about the duty he owes, but he doesn't understand the full measure of what that service meant and he never can. I think much of the ugliness that pervades America in politics, traffic, Black Friday shopping, sports and whatever other arena you can think of, comes in part due to lack of shared sacrifice. Charlie Rangel's idea about reinstituting the draft was good because he thought it would teach people to work together as Americans again. The Greatest Generation was that, in part, because of what they quietly accomplished after their service was complete, but was possible because of their service.
I weep for America when someone so morally corrupt can actually be the candidate for President from a major party. Shame on all those who do not denounce him for what he has said on many occasions not just this last indecent proclamation of disgust for gold star parents and their fallen son. Other far more worthy Republican candidates were available yet Trump has swaggered his way with his contemptuous speech to this place in our history. That he is viewed as a god by the old veteran who gave him his purple cross is the last irony. The draft was needed at the time, and those that were exempt should not be criticized. But neither should those who did serve with valor and were wounded or died.
Trump owes all Americans an abject apology for his snide, degrading remarks. To do otherwise is the sign of a psychotic personality with delusions of grandeur, who must have the last word in any fight at all costs. To elect him our President would be unconscionable and the end of our democracy.
Trump owes all Americans an abject apology for his snide, degrading remarks. To do otherwise is the sign of a psychotic personality with delusions of grandeur, who must have the last word in any fight at all costs. To elect him our President would be unconscionable and the end of our democracy.
I must be losing both my sight and hearing. Nowhere have I heard or read anything negative about Captain Khan or service members by Trump during this Khan kerfluffle.
Here's all I have seen: Mr. Khan, a lawyer who practices immigration law and the father of a fallen warrior, made a speech at the Dem convention which harshly criticized Trump. Trump hit back. The general media cried "foul!" on Trump for criticizing a Gold Star Parent.
Wait a minute. Was he speaking as a parent, or someone with a vested interest in immigration politics - or both? And why does suffering a loss - no matter how noble and hurtful - make one immune from criticism?
These days, everyone seems to need to "virtue signal" by identifying their tribe before being allowed to speak on anything. Here's mine. 33+ years as a Naval Medical Officer where my life was dedicated to keeping the number of Gold Star Parents to an absolute minimum possible.
My heart breaks with every failure to to that. And as well as can be to one who has not had the personal suffering, I understand.
I also understand that in a Democracy if we elevate any class of individuals to be above reproach, we are no longer a democracy. I don't know if Khan is more right than Trump. Or the other way around. I'm not in either of their shoes.
I just know that those who say, "Trump is wrong because Khan has been awarded the magic cloak of invincibility as a victim," are wrong. We dare not go down that road.
Here's all I have seen: Mr. Khan, a lawyer who practices immigration law and the father of a fallen warrior, made a speech at the Dem convention which harshly criticized Trump. Trump hit back. The general media cried "foul!" on Trump for criticizing a Gold Star Parent.
Wait a minute. Was he speaking as a parent, or someone with a vested interest in immigration politics - or both? And why does suffering a loss - no matter how noble and hurtful - make one immune from criticism?
These days, everyone seems to need to "virtue signal" by identifying their tribe before being allowed to speak on anything. Here's mine. 33+ years as a Naval Medical Officer where my life was dedicated to keeping the number of Gold Star Parents to an absolute minimum possible.
My heart breaks with every failure to to that. And as well as can be to one who has not had the personal suffering, I understand.
I also understand that in a Democracy if we elevate any class of individuals to be above reproach, we are no longer a democracy. I don't know if Khan is more right than Trump. Or the other way around. I'm not in either of their shoes.
I just know that those who say, "Trump is wrong because Khan has been awarded the magic cloak of invincibility as a victim," are wrong. We dare not go down that road.
Both candidates are bad. As a veteran of multiple deployments having witnessed plenty of death and destruction and having dealt with heel spurs over the years as well, I can say it is likely that Trump's military avoidance was a fraud. On the other hand we see that Mr. Khan, as terrible as what happened to his son was, has levered this to his advantage as well. His connections to the Clinton legal machine and the Saudis certainly decreases his credibility. He was obviously hand picked by the Clinton machine to put on TV. The entire thing is disgusting on both sides. The only question voters should think about, since from a moral standpoint both candidates are blind, is which one will help the economy long term and which one will be more likely to decrease our military involvement in every third world backwater at great cost to ourselves and the 1st world. Which one will look at the dollars and cents benefit of more Syria, Iraq, AFG, Niger, Somalia, Egypt, etc. etc. Which one is less likely to care about Crimea or what Russia does at its borders? Which one of the candidates has more skin in the game if the economy continues to crash? Which one will do something to secure our borders so that our own underclass can climb out of its misery? Which one is so economically unsophisticated that they see that waves of unskilled labor depress the economic situation of our own unskilled laborers?
It all began in 2008 when Obama was elected President of the United States, a dignitary representing our nation around the world. I clearly recall the “vitriol” inflicted upon our President while the Republican Party remained quiet; conducting business as usual. From that moment on, vitriol, obscenities and name calling is the “norm.”
Now, the cards have turned the other way – the Republican Party. Whatever is left of their reputation is being damaged by its’ own Republican Presidential candidate, Donald Trump. They carefully criticize some of Trump’s statement but don’t stand-up against Trump’s perceived emotional imbalance and of his “cheap thrills.” Praising President Putin is okay; his lack of respect, knowledge and vision to negotiate with foreign dignitaries to obtain results for the best interest of this country. Trump’s lack of “leadership;” self-control and ignorance at fighting against the eminent threat that Isis and his Jihadist’s army of thugs represent to America and the world is being ignored since President Trump is a must.
A President must know he’s a public servant; serve for the betterment of the country and “all” its citizens without preference and most of all, he should demonstrate respect and hold true to his words. Donald Trump doesn’t possess any of these attributes.
Now, the cards have turned the other way – the Republican Party. Whatever is left of their reputation is being damaged by its’ own Republican Presidential candidate, Donald Trump. They carefully criticize some of Trump’s statement but don’t stand-up against Trump’s perceived emotional imbalance and of his “cheap thrills.” Praising President Putin is okay; his lack of respect, knowledge and vision to negotiate with foreign dignitaries to obtain results for the best interest of this country. Trump’s lack of “leadership;” self-control and ignorance at fighting against the eminent threat that Isis and his Jihadist’s army of thugs represent to America and the world is being ignored since President Trump is a must.
A President must know he’s a public servant; serve for the betterment of the country and “all” its citizens without preference and most of all, he should demonstrate respect and hold true to his words. Donald Trump doesn’t possess any of these attributes.
2
As a Nam vet, I truly appreciate the sentiments expressed in this column. I was drafted in 1968 at age 25. My feelings at that time were mixed. I did not agree with the war, but could not separate rational thought from fear. Being from the conservative south, you just did not avoid the draft. The culture in which I was reared stressed "America, Love It or Leave It". I was suspect for my moderate to liberal leanings on other social issues. I have never felt antagonism toward those who managed to avoid the draft. It was my personal choice to not take that road.
Several comments from other responses hit home. The draft did focus on the poor, inner city 18 years olds. They were but fodder. And, as another comment noted, we were limited to one tour. It is so much harder today for those who serve multiple tours.
As an afterthought, I have finally, at age 73, been approved for VA services. Apparently my wife and I were too good at saving for retirement. Previously, I had been rejected each time I applied. I had my first medical tests yesterday.
Several comments from other responses hit home. The draft did focus on the poor, inner city 18 years olds. They were but fodder. And, as another comment noted, we were limited to one tour. It is so much harder today for those who serve multiple tours.
As an afterthought, I have finally, at age 73, been approved for VA services. Apparently my wife and I were too good at saving for retirement. Previously, I had been rejected each time I applied. I had my first medical tests yesterday.
2
I too watched the draft lottery that evening with my new husband and younger brother. My husband's number was 303 so he was relatively safe. My brother's number was 34, making it highly likely he would be drafted. Suddenly, my father, a lifelong Republican and solid Nixon supporter, was against the war. He even talked of sending my brother to Canada. I believe this is when sentiment against the war increased: when all young men were placed on the same playing field. Recently, at my 50th high school reunion a collection was taken for our one classmate who was killed in Vietnam at age 19. The bulk of it was presented in the form of a scholarship to a deserving graduating senior while the remainder was used to purchase a plaque to be displayed in our high school, dedicated to our friend who was never able to live his life.
2
Oh, the hand wringing, the guilt, the expressions of remorse. Donald Trump found a way out of the draft; so did many of my friends, while I enlisted (Army, 1967-70). Mr. Gup, save your convenient, late-expressed guilt for someone who cares. You made the decision, live with it; in a twisted way, you're similar to those who have stolen the honor of those who served, by discussing their sacrifice in such a noble way--except in your case, its borrowed. All of the criticism of Trump's lack of service, lack of government experience, what he doesn't know, how insensitive he is...well, where was this concern when the drooling electorate installed Barack Obama? Fact is, Trump has not served in government and has not participated in decisions that led to the murder of our U.S. ambassador in Libya, the sale of U.S. uranium to Russia, the quiet transfer of $400 million in foreign cash to Iran and the acceptance of huge donations to a family foundation in exchange for a nod and a wink from he Secretary of State.
1
The author is correct Trump is not just like selfish egotistical 'the heck with everyone else' millions of draft dodgers like him. Trump has the courage NOW to defy the 1% Democratic-Republican political class status quo in the most powerful nation in the world that has been committing treason against the American majority for the 40 years. The Viet Cong were a bunch of ignorant murderer terrorists of innocent village people who could not stand up in a fight for more than about 5 minutes. While Trump is attacked by all the media hacks that money can buy. Every day there are at least 2 more ad hominem attacks on Trump because he dares to oppose the Russian roulette reckless globalism crusade of our 1%. Opposing these masters of the universe now takes a lot more courage than to be drafted, and then probably maneuver ones way into a none combat job like Al Gore did because he "had so much education". What we have to remember is that the majority of our armed services are not on the "tip of the spear" and most of the rich and powerful manage to be on the back end even if they do symbolic service in the military like Gore and Bush Junior. And the Democratic party co opting the parents of an Army officer who died in combat in order to use them as attack dogs in a political campaign for a serial criminal like Hillary Clinton is a moral horror that dishonors the sacrifice of their son to such an extent that I still can't believe that this "dirty tricks" maneuver actually occurred.
2
Mr. Staples, you ascribe far too much humanity, decency, empathy and principle to Treasonous Trump. His is not courage to act in the manner he has. He has displayed no courage in "standing up" to this mythical and non-existent 1% you reference. Your blindness to the shenanigans of Treasonous Trump is as startling as your blind fealty to and ridiculous defense of, Treasonous Trump. Your attack on Hillary Clinton is without merit and quite baseless. As Mr. Khan asked, what sacrifices has Treasonous Trump ever made? While Hillary Clinton was serving America in ways unfathomable to Treasonous Trump, Old Treasonous was out there trying to figure out how to shag women and not get a sexually transmitted disease. The problem with Treasonous Trump is that he is a person (if he acted like one I would've called him a man) who was born on 3rd base and thought he'd hit a triple. Not only is Treasonous Trump clueless about the ways of the world, I fear that you, and like supporters of Treasonous Trump, are as clueless as he. I like America, and I don't want Treasonous Trump to hand it over to his friend, the thuggish Mr. Putin. More importantly, I don't want Treasonous Trump to turn America into a reiteration of Nazi Germany.
Donald Trump did not avoid killing Vietnamese people in their own country as a matter of principle. He dodged the draft to save his own skin. As Mr. Khan said at the DNC, Donald Trump sacrificed nothing: no arrests for protesting the war, no police clubs on his head trying to stop it.
Plus, like many of America's most prominent war mongers, he is only too happy to play the role of Mr. Tough Guy, a loudmouth bravely boasting about how he is going to send other people's kids to other people's countries to kill other people's kids.
An expression was going around for a number of years after the Vietnam War: everybody did what they did. It means you did what you thought was right: fighting for your country because you believed the politicians' lies or doing what you thought would help to stop the war because you didn't.
Donald Trump never has and never will do what he thinks is right. He does what is good for Donald Trump, no matter who loses money on his crooked schemes or whose kids die so he doesn't have to.
Plus, like many of America's most prominent war mongers, he is only too happy to play the role of Mr. Tough Guy, a loudmouth bravely boasting about how he is going to send other people's kids to other people's countries to kill other people's kids.
An expression was going around for a number of years after the Vietnam War: everybody did what they did. It means you did what you thought was right: fighting for your country because you believed the politicians' lies or doing what you thought would help to stop the war because you didn't.
Donald Trump never has and never will do what he thinks is right. He does what is good for Donald Trump, no matter who loses money on his crooked schemes or whose kids die so he doesn't have to.
15
Trump is not like most people let alone other draft dodgers. The only other nationally known draft dodger who floored me as much as Trump was Darth Vader Cheney.
40
The problem with Trump is that he avoided killing Vietnamese people in their own countrymped-upnot as a matter of principle
1
Trump's attitude towards McCain's service as a POW, his comment about the Purple Heart medal given to him by a veteran, as well as his outrage over the criticism by parents of a young officer killed who object to his remarks about Muslims all reflect a mind that has no conception of what people experience because of war and the impact that it has upon people. He used his resources to avoid going to war, like most affluent young men, who used college deferments and other methods to avoid risking their lives in a war that they believed was not justified but somehow he just did not grasp what happened to those who did go to war. That is sad for him. What amazes me is that the people who support him most steadfastly are the kinds of people who did not avoid service in the Vietnam War. They think that he is some kind of genius who will restore a way of life that they feel has been taken from them.
What is even more amazing is that a lot of his supporters remember Nixon's fall on account of his resentment of those who frustrated and opposed him, leading him to devote his energies to taking retribution and ultimately to violating the laws and forcing him to resign. Nixon was a capable President but he let his personal issues destroy his Presidency. Trump would likely do so more spectacularly and with far less finesse given his bad habits.
What is even more amazing is that a lot of his supporters remember Nixon's fall on account of his resentment of those who frustrated and opposed him, leading him to devote his energies to taking retribution and ultimately to violating the laws and forcing him to resign. Nixon was a capable President but he let his personal issues destroy his Presidency. Trump would likely do so more spectacularly and with far less finesse given his bad habits.
53
How many remember that when it came to World War II, Richard M. Nixon, using his mother's Quaker faith, registered as a conscientious objector? He was granted a 1-A-O non-combatant conscientious objector status which then exempted him from being sent into a combat zone. He stayed safe in a motor pool, playing poker. Three years after the war, Nixon's first political campaign used a photo of him in uniform with the words "Richard Nixon - Veteran."
Ironically, as this coward was sending thousands to fight and die in Vietnam, 1-A-O was expanded and many non-combatant COs served with distinction as medics in Vietnam. But, when it was Nixon's time to serve, 1-A-O was a "get out of war free" card.
Ironically, as this coward was sending thousands to fight and die in Vietnam, 1-A-O was expanded and many non-combatant COs served with distinction as medics in Vietnam. But, when it was Nixon's time to serve, 1-A-O was a "get out of war free" card.
From Bill Clinton’s 1969 draft letter explaining why he was bowing out of his ROTC commitment. “From my work I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation.
The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea, an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.
Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country, that is, the particular policy of a particular government, right or wrong.”
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/13/us/1992-campaign-letter-clinton-his-dr...
The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea, an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.
Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country, that is, the particular policy of a particular government, right or wrong.”
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/13/us/1992-campaign-letter-clinton-his-dr...
24
Bill Clinton is not dissing the families of those who served.
Donald Trump seems to me to be a footnote in this discussion, which reads to me like a collective meditation on a the growing awareness by Americans that the US has become of country that lives by the sword. I graduated from college in 1959; having been an NROTC student, I received a commission and was sent to the aircraft carrier USS Midway (now a museum in San Diego). During my 3 years aboard the ship I developed the same respect for my shipmates that many contributors to this discussion also experienced and have described. I decided I wanted to become a Navy pilot and was accepted to the flight school at NAS Pensacola. There, to my surprise, I was told there was a problem with my vision that disqualified me, and I was immediately returned to the Midway. In 1962, knowing I would not remain on active duty, I left the Navy to begin medical school. Although the US had already become involved in South Vietnam by this time, the war had not really begun. A number of my friends and former shipmates (including one NROTC classmate who also went to flight school but was retained and subsequently flew over Vietnam) remained in the military. To this day, I treasure the time I spent in the Navy and somehow STILL feel guilty that I dodged a bullet in that war.
Now approaching the age of 80, I am terrified of politicians who have never served, or seen a close friend or relative serve, but wrap themselves in the flag and pretend they are warriors.
Now approaching the age of 80, I am terrified of politicians who have never served, or seen a close friend or relative serve, but wrap themselves in the flag and pretend they are warriors.
128
Your comment is testimony in support of a national draft for every American citizen, man and woman, from the age of 18 to serve a minimum 18 months in our Armed Forces, be it in battle or in civilian life. When everyone has a stake in our military, the choices our country faces, from peace to wartime, will be made more intelligently after collective conversation.
1
Me too, Frank. Ex-Navy Air, never saw Vietnam.
My best friend died over there, and I still, and always will feel guilty that he got it while I was safe and warm at NAS Key West.
My best friend died over there, and I still, and always will feel guilty that he got it while I was safe and warm at NAS Key West.
Shipmate, you have nothing to feel guilty about, because you "did your bit" for the nation. No, you didn't face down the Viet Cong, their bullets or the NVA's SAMS going downtown over Hanoi, but that's what the nation asked of you. You served, you were prepared to face the dangers and horrors of war, if necessary, but circumstances didn't call upon you to do so - the universe aligned in your favor. Like millions of other young men and women, millions who include Elvis Presley, who spent two years as a driver in Europe and my son who spent six years in the National Guard without so much as responding to a natural disaster, you "did your bit" by taking your turn on watch so other could sleep soundly. That's what service is all about, in my opinion, doing your bit whatever it might be at a particular moment.
Men who avoided the draft because they were opposed to the war in Vietnam (or war in general) have nothing to feel guilty about. It's the chickenhawks who avoided Vietnam because "they had other priorities," but now strut around with warmongering intensity who deserve and get our disdain. They are dangerous precisely because they have spent their adult lives acting more militaristic than the military in order to "prove" to themselves that they really really really were not "weak" like those other draft dodgers.
135
Men who avoided the Vietnam draft for any reason at all -- principled or unprincipled -- have nothing to feel guilty about. Nothing. The Vietnam War was a complete and utter waste. There is nothing good to be said about it. There was nothing enobling about it. It was a cause perpetuated by deluded men in power driven variously by fear. hatred, greed, pride, opportunism, and a profound disrespect for human life. My heart goes out to everyone -- especially the Vietnamese -- who was damaged by it. It is impossible to feel enough compassion for the victims of this brutality. Any man who refused to participate in the service of this slaughter, regardless of his motives, has nothing to be ashamed of.
1
I'm a decorated Vietnam vet. I was drafted in 1969. For any of the readers here who feel like Mr. Gup, please support in any way you can the men and women who now serve in our "other" Vietnams, Iraq and Afghanistan. I was and wasn't lucky. I was inasmuch as I had to serve only one tour. Our current military requires that some serve two, three, or even more tours. The consequences are vets coming home with severe damage to psyche and mind. Push your elected representatives to do everything they can to help our current men and women in uniform. That might assuage some guilt, and, more importantly, actually make a contribution to the effort.
238
Excellent post. Thank you.
My son is carrying on the family tradition (since before WWI) as an Air Force Security Forces Master Sergeant. Expect within the next ten years or less he'll make Chief.
Expect some or all his children will do the same.
While i hold regard candidates with contempt, for different reasons, I will not vote for Clinton.
Again, thank you.
My son is carrying on the family tradition (since before WWI) as an Air Force Security Forces Master Sergeant. Expect within the next ten years or less he'll make Chief.
Expect some or all his children will do the same.
While i hold regard candidates with contempt, for different reasons, I will not vote for Clinton.
Again, thank you.
1
Donald Trump will stand trial for fraud come November. His third wife posed nude and little has been mentioned about her pre-nup. She will be the first possible first lady with a pre-nup. These are not warm fuzzy people. Mr. Bloomberg the former mayor said "I didn't get my start by my father writing me a million dollar check". It is so sad that Donald Trump has had every conceivable advantage in the USA. And he still makes such a mess of it. He mocks and bullies people. Not to mention Donald Trump has a couple of military age sons who also have scant public service histories.
73
As to Trump's wife, I don't hold her past against her - she is a gold digger doing what gold diggers do. But the hypocrisy of the GOP is disgusting. I recall in 2008 that they howled about "family values," as they always do, as they nominated Palin as VP with her dysfunctional crew, and blasted Michelle Obama as being beneath the position of FLOTUS, in part because she was "classless" for wearing sleeveless dresses! Sleeveless dresses! Now what do you hear from the same folks on Mrs. Trump? Silence.
The Clinton's are saint like. Melania's posing for pictures far out weighs Bill's sexual predation and addiction and Hillary's serial lies and money grubbing criminality. Democrats continue to maintain high moral standards and to avoid hypocrisy and irrationality. I thought families were off limits?
So his third wife voluntarily posed nude, that was her choice as a woman. Let's not forget about Bill Clinton's antics with an intern in the White House...where was Bill's respect for women while being unfaithful to his wife, cavorting with a White House employee 20-years his junior? It showed a lack of respect for both Hillary, his wife, and for Monica Lewinsky, a young professional woman in the White House. At the very least it showed an extreme level of poor judgment.
I did it. I yelled FU at Mr. Trump the other evening. He was on TV and stated that now he regrets not having served.
I don't have a problem with people who didn't want to go to Vietnam. I have a problem with people who now attempt to profit from their regret.
USMC
RVN 4-68~12-69
I don't have a problem with people who didn't want to go to Vietnam. I have a problem with people who now attempt to profit from their regret.
USMC
RVN 4-68~12-69
37
I agree with your nice phrase that Trump appears to have been "untouched by humanity" in his earlier years (and gotten worse, since!). However, I don't fault him (or others) for avoiding the Vietnam War draft, and I don't place those who served there on a pedestal.
I don't call them "baby killers," either; except for the very few Lt. Calleys out there. Mostly, they did what they thought was honorable and, sadly, they neither made us safer nor improved America. We should never have been there at all and, certainly by 1967-68, everyone who was thinking straight about it knew that.
A real "hero" of the Vietnam War was one who REALLY sacrificed (not me, I got a high lottery number; certainly not Trump): those who went to jail or were exiled for their opposition to it. Also, a true hero was a person like Sec. Kerry, who foolishly went and fought, realized the enormous immorality of it, and came home and fought against the war on the public stage. Let's use our gratitude for people like them.
I don't call them "baby killers," either; except for the very few Lt. Calleys out there. Mostly, they did what they thought was honorable and, sadly, they neither made us safer nor improved America. We should never have been there at all and, certainly by 1967-68, everyone who was thinking straight about it knew that.
A real "hero" of the Vietnam War was one who REALLY sacrificed (not me, I got a high lottery number; certainly not Trump): those who went to jail or were exiled for their opposition to it. Also, a true hero was a person like Sec. Kerry, who foolishly went and fought, realized the enormous immorality of it, and came home and fought against the war on the public stage. Let's use our gratitude for people like them.
38
I'm really not sure what point this writer is trying to make. He sounds like he feels guilty for not serving in Vietnam. All he had to do was enlist. We're supposed to feel sorry for him? All I hear ad nauseum is "support our troops." If this country admires and loves our military so much why do we keep sending them off to stupid unnecessary wars? I'll tell you why. We must continue to feed that monster called the "military industrial complex." Save your "support our troops" platitudes - they are meaningless.
14
I married a Vietnam veteran who returned in 1969. He did not talk about what he went through, and there was no such thing as PTSD. He proceeded to wreck the lives of the two children he abandoned when we broke up, and wrecked his own life until receiving counseling from the VA 30 years later. I recall his horrible nightmares and being thrown out of the bed as he thrashed about. We were friends with Moe, a Marine who would go into drunken crying jags about how he killed babies. Moe committed suicide two years after he returned. Two of my friends, who flunked out of university, dressed as women when they reported to the draft office. Another ran away, got caught, got sent to basic training, and acted insane until they let him go. Although there were Afro American guys who obtained educational deferments, many, many of my age mates did not. I am glad I protested the war with many others, and I am also grateful for the sacrifices those guys and their families made to prosecute an unjust and pointless war. I write not to castigate those able to get deferments, but I hope you will recognize it was white privilege that saved you, that let you develop into outwardly successful men able to make good marriages. I hope you are giving back in some way.
39
"and I am also grateful for the sacrifices those guys and their families made to prosecute an unjust and pointless war."
Gratitude on this point is something I simply do not understand. It just doesn't make sense to me, especially given the rest of your insightful and poignant comment.
By the way, I do acknowledge that your closing point -- "white privilege that saved you" -- applies fully to me. I don't feel guilty about it, just terribly sad that anyone was ever put into a position to make misplaced sacrifices.
Gratitude on this point is something I simply do not understand. It just doesn't make sense to me, especially given the rest of your insightful and poignant comment.
By the way, I do acknowledge that your closing point -- "white privilege that saved you" -- applies fully to me. I don't feel guilty about it, just terribly sad that anyone was ever put into a position to make misplaced sacrifices.
Well, particularly with veterans who were drafted, or, like my late brother--a Navy JAG--those who enlisted before they were called, one cannot feel anything other than gratitude for serving as cannon fodder for Robert McNamara, Henry Kissinger, et al; they had no choice but to go to these forsaken places. As for veterans from the so-called volunteer armed forces, like my son in-law, a Marine of the first Gulf War, I also feel gratitude for their service. Can't help but feel otherwise, sorry.
I too consider Trump's lack of respect for the the Khan reprehensible. Their decency and grace is deeply inspiring.
I too remember where I was all those years ago, in my high school friend Donald Korn's basement. We turned off his new album, Cosmos Factory, and listened on the radio as they read out the birthdates and draft numbers. Mine was a fortunate 359.
But I feel no twinge of remorse that I did not serve. A few years later one of my housemates, a machine gunner whose helicopter was shot down, woke us all up screaming. In his nightmare he had kicked a hole in his bedroom wall.
Thinking of that now, I just get mad, and sad, that he and other kids I knew got used; because Lyndon Johnson, who we now know knew himself it was not a war worth fighting, bowed to the right wing, fearful of being called a pinko if he did not proceed. Unlike the Republicans and the right wing of his own party, Johnson was smart enough to know (you can hear it in the recording of his sad phone call with Sam Rayburn) that that American would be just fine whether Vietnam was Communist or not. So I am angry and sad that nice kids were sent to shoot machine guns, drop bombs, and live with the enduring the damage for what we know was a useless and unnecessary war.
I too remember where I was all those years ago, in my high school friend Donald Korn's basement. We turned off his new album, Cosmos Factory, and listened on the radio as they read out the birthdates and draft numbers. Mine was a fortunate 359.
But I feel no twinge of remorse that I did not serve. A few years later one of my housemates, a machine gunner whose helicopter was shot down, woke us all up screaming. In his nightmare he had kicked a hole in his bedroom wall.
Thinking of that now, I just get mad, and sad, that he and other kids I knew got used; because Lyndon Johnson, who we now know knew himself it was not a war worth fighting, bowed to the right wing, fearful of being called a pinko if he did not proceed. Unlike the Republicans and the right wing of his own party, Johnson was smart enough to know (you can hear it in the recording of his sad phone call with Sam Rayburn) that that American would be just fine whether Vietnam was Communist or not. So I am angry and sad that nice kids were sent to shoot machine guns, drop bombs, and live with the enduring the damage for what we know was a useless and unnecessary war.
40
Best comment yet. Thank you.
Donald Trump's SPURious exemption and alleged manhood, shrivels when compared to the Vietnam war protestors, who resisted induction at great personal cost, and were intellectually aware enough to detect the disingenuous rationale for the Vietnam debacle. They did their best to warn the nation. No one listened and almost 60,000 died, over 300,000 were wounded, tens of thousands more were damaged by exposure to Agent Orange and the twisted ravages of PTSD. And for what? Nothing.Nada. The ultimate, predictable ,cynical insult, was when the U.S. Government fought to prevent victims of Agent Orange exposure and PTSD from receiving benefits.
28
The war's rationale was not spurious. Hegemonic Communism was a murderous and aggressive movement threatening the rest of the world. What was spurious was the Kennedy-Johnson strategy.
Trump is not like most other draft dodgers because most other draft dodgers are not borderline sociopaths. The guy has no empathy. It's just missing.
55
I was against the war. I didn't serve. I don't remember anyone who was against the war sneering at or despising those who served. We wanted them safely home, and the war ended. We saved our contempt for the loudly pro-war types, like W, who talked about how great it was that we were "killing commies" while making sure that their fine selves never had to fight.
I don't feel shame for opposing the war, or having avoided serving - just an overwhelming sorrow for those who died, or who lost part of their souls, in an insane, cynical, useless and stupid war. Maybe Trump should be made to spend a week staring at the wall in D.C., to see if he's capable of tears.
I don't feel shame for opposing the war, or having avoided serving - just an overwhelming sorrow for those who died, or who lost part of their souls, in an insane, cynical, useless and stupid war. Maybe Trump should be made to spend a week staring at the wall in D.C., to see if he's capable of tears.
50
I agree. I have asked about his military record for months now.
My former husband was granted a deferment to attend law school at Harvard. In return, he gave four years to JAG after his degree was granted. I know people who were conscientious objectors who served in hospitals or did other non-combat duties. I believed that people had to serve in some way if they were benefited from a non-medical deferment. How did he escape that commitment?
My former husband was granted a deferment to attend law school at Harvard. In return, he gave four years to JAG after his degree was granted. I know people who were conscientious objectors who served in hospitals or did other non-combat duties. I believed that people had to serve in some way if they were benefited from a non-medical deferment. How did he escape that commitment?
I don't remember anyone who voted for Nixon, but somebody sure did. The same with the denigrators of Viet Nam Vets. The denigration continued for decades, and it is still rampant in the souls of many fine US citizens.
Amnesia is a convenience for guilt and shame.
Amnesia is a convenience for guilt and shame.
I can't remember anyone who voted for Nixon, but many folks sure did. The same for the denigrators of Viet Nam Vets. The denigrations continued for decades, and it is still rampant in the souls of many fine US citizens.
Amnesia is the refuge of guilt and shame.
Amnesia is the refuge of guilt and shame.
My number was 62, so I was headed to Vietnam unless I could find a way out. In my small Pennsylvania town everyone knew each other or someone who did. It was not difficult for me to arrange entrance into the Reserve in order to avoid Vietnam. I knew this was unfair, but I also knew that I wanted no part of this war. Calling military members "baby killers" was over the top for me, but fighting a civil war with one hand tied behind my back was not my idea of smart (could we have beaten the Vietcong? Sure, all we needed to do was send a couple million soldiers over there. America and, especially, its politicians didn't want to do that). Surprisingly, and luckily, I flunked the Reserve physical--4F! They would have taken Trump before me. Anyone who went to Vietnam has my respect and gratitude, but I wish his service had not been necessary.
17
But it wasn't necessary. That's the essence of this tragedy.
Joining the Reserves did not exempt one from service in Nam. 3,000 Reservists are remembered on the Black Gash on the Mall.
This brings up both painful and nostalgic memories of those times, receiving the lottery number and sort of knowing one's future as a result, instead of the randomness of the draft before that. We had grown up watching the body counts on the nightly news, the 20 yr olds who knew so little being sacrificed by the elders, just like with every generation. Those of us who questioned it were not so much afraid of dying, but more horrified of getting imprisoned by the military machine, the blind patriotism, the pointlessness and madness of it all. My grandmother had told me when I was only 12, "Your grandfather and your father fought, and now it's going to be your turn..." The poignancy of "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Did Trump feel those things?
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?
24
Let's find Mr. Trump's doctor's note and use it to exempt him from the Presidency. Trump disgusts me and the honor of my husband, who as a young boy was traumatized at the thought that his older brothers would not return from Vietnam. Thank God he did not have to endure the further damage of them being killed or maimed, but he sobs every time he learns that a soldier has been killed. He also sobbed when Trump's actions belittled a serviceman's parents and when Trump made light of a Purple Heart. What have we become people? Please do not vote for this monster.
53
The sight of Trump brandishing a Purple Heart a supporter who had fought and been wounded had given him and bragging he had always wanted a Purple Heart and was happy to get it "the easy way" is a base slander on every combat veteran who was ever wounded and actually won his or her Purple Heart. He has once again shown his own grotesque Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is described in Wikipedia as:
"Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a long term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others' feelings. People affected by it often spend a lot of time thinking about achieving power, success, or their appearance. They often take advantage of the people around them. The behavior typically begins by early adulthood, and occurs across a variety of situations."
Having his own Purple Heart medal is obviously a sap to his sense of grandiosity and feeling of self-importance. The fact that somebody else had to suffer a combat wound to get that Purple Heart doesn't touch him as he brags about getting it "the easy way." He may have gotten his Purple Heart medal the easy way, but there is no way to EARN a Purple Heart the easy way - a distinction he lacks the mental qualities to understand.
"Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a long term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others' feelings. People affected by it often spend a lot of time thinking about achieving power, success, or their appearance. They often take advantage of the people around them. The behavior typically begins by early adulthood, and occurs across a variety of situations."
Having his own Purple Heart medal is obviously a sap to his sense of grandiosity and feeling of self-importance. The fact that somebody else had to suffer a combat wound to get that Purple Heart doesn't touch him as he brags about getting it "the easy way." He may have gotten his Purple Heart medal the easy way, but there is no way to EARN a Purple Heart the easy way - a distinction he lacks the mental qualities to understand.
It's impossible for someone who didn't live through the draft and the Vietnam war to understand the decisions that those of us who were faced with that situation as young men made nearly 50 years ago and I don't believe that it is either fair or useful to judge someone today based on how they responded to the stress and confusion we were subject to then.
There are lots of good reasons to conclude that Mr. Trump is not qualified to be President and there is no need to dredge up his draft history, which is about the same as many others.
There are lots of good reasons to conclude that Mr. Trump is not qualified to be President and there is no need to dredge up his draft history, which is about the same as many others.
17
@joel-
I don't agree about Trump. Trump had no stress and confusion about going, there is no record of him agonizing over Vietnam, about whether it was right to fight there, Trump was simply a rich kid who basically was given an automatic deferrment because he was 'too important to go'. Trump is not being questioned because he didn't go, he is being questioned because he has stated in his campaign rhetoric both a willingness to use force and also shown absolute contempt for those fighting, and that is the problem. As the author wrote, many who chose not to go to Vietnam, through various means, came to appreciate the sacrifice of those who did, not Trump, who shows the arrogance that more than a few scions of the rich do. This is especially poignent when Vietnam was fought mostly by working class and poor people because people of any means found ways to get out of it, Trump is not just showing contempt for those who served back then and now, but is showing contempt along the lines of "you stupid, poor boobs, if you had been smart and rich like me, important people, you wouldn't have gone". It is his attitude that is the problem, Joel, not the fact that he didn't go. Clinton didn't go, but at least he did so on principle, not because he was busy improving his golf game or working with Daddy to make more money and become more rich.
I don't agree about Trump. Trump had no stress and confusion about going, there is no record of him agonizing over Vietnam, about whether it was right to fight there, Trump was simply a rich kid who basically was given an automatic deferrment because he was 'too important to go'. Trump is not being questioned because he didn't go, he is being questioned because he has stated in his campaign rhetoric both a willingness to use force and also shown absolute contempt for those fighting, and that is the problem. As the author wrote, many who chose not to go to Vietnam, through various means, came to appreciate the sacrifice of those who did, not Trump, who shows the arrogance that more than a few scions of the rich do. This is especially poignent when Vietnam was fought mostly by working class and poor people because people of any means found ways to get out of it, Trump is not just showing contempt for those who served back then and now, but is showing contempt along the lines of "you stupid, poor boobs, if you had been smart and rich like me, important people, you wouldn't have gone". It is his attitude that is the problem, Joel, not the fact that he didn't go. Clinton didn't go, but at least he did so on principle, not because he was busy improving his golf game or working with Daddy to make more money and become more rich.
You missed the point. It's not Trump's draft dodging but his complete lack of remorse or reflection on the subject that is at issue. He mocks John McCain - who endured six years (!) as a NV pow - a barely imaginable experience. What was Trump doing? Worming his way through the real estate business. If the man had even a particle of sense he would show respect for McCain and Khan. But he doesn't. He has impulse control problems, and that makes him a born loser.
No. I disagree. Avoiding the draft was done for one of two reasons: either you were taking a principled stand against war (and particularly against the illegal, immoral, and unnecessary Vietnam war), or you were in the "privileged" or "cowardly" categories that DID believe the war was just and necessary, but avoided putting their bodies where their beliefs were.
I respect and honor those who believed in the war and went to fight and those who did not believe in the war and avoided it (most of them working to bring all of the troops home alive and safe). I spit on those who avoided a war they believed was just, but didn't want to fight it themselves.
I respect and honor those who believed in the war and went to fight and those who did not believe in the war and avoided it (most of them working to bring all of the troops home alive and safe). I spit on those who avoided a war they believed was just, but didn't want to fight it themselves.
Like many of Trump's outrageous antics, these latest outrages were not even his own invention. Recall Republican swift-boating of John Kerry, an actual combat veteran who volunteered to serve even though he came from a privileged background.
Trump has done nothing more than steal a couple dozen Republican whispering points and used them for his own vile purposes.
Trump has done nothing more than steal a couple dozen Republican whispering points and used them for his own vile purposes.
19
I appreciate your comment.
I found myself in the same position, only I wrote to my draft board and told them I would not go and that I would resist with any means at my disposal my being forced to go. I told them what they could do with their war, their draft, and themselves, and that I wasn't going to end up like one of my best friends who went, a psychological mess.
I'll never know the results of that letter as the draft was suspended and then cancelled shortly thereafter (even though my number came up). I'd like to think that I would have followed through and would have been prepared to go to jail or whatever the punishment was, but I was never put to the test.
I hate that damned war, I hate what it did to our country, and I hate what it did to our society. Even now we are talking about and trying to reconcile ourselves to it.
I found myself in the same position, only I wrote to my draft board and told them I would not go and that I would resist with any means at my disposal my being forced to go. I told them what they could do with their war, their draft, and themselves, and that I wasn't going to end up like one of my best friends who went, a psychological mess.
I'll never know the results of that letter as the draft was suspended and then cancelled shortly thereafter (even though my number came up). I'd like to think that I would have followed through and would have been prepared to go to jail or whatever the punishment was, but I was never put to the test.
I hate that damned war, I hate what it did to our country, and I hate what it did to our society. Even now we are talking about and trying to reconcile ourselves to it.
21
Ted, I served in Vietnam as a medical corpsman, and you have nothing to feel guilty about getting a deferment under dubious circumstances. But what bothers me as a war veteran that our country fought an unnecessary war in Iraq. That's the real issue which no one seems to want to address in this whole sordid and sad affair.
25
Outstanding article. He's pegged a selfish, narcissistic sociopath perfectly. We cannot afford to have such an empty, dark soul in command of the lives of millions in the armed services! Drumpf has no empathy. He would send your kids to battle in a blink of an eye because some leader didn't genuflect to him!!
32
Thanks for using Trump's surname as it was in Germany. If he were Donald Drumpf I doubt that this disgusting sociopath would have ever gotten this far. God wiling that he gets no farther.
I was drafted during the Korea but saw no combat. The rules governing the draft then made it much more difficult to evade it than was true in the Vietnam era and the draftees were much more representative of the whole population. The rule then was that if you ever received a deferment you could be drafted until you were 35. My employer offered me work on a defense project that would have kept me out, but I turned it down because I wanted to serve when I was still young and then get on with my life. In fact I benefited greatly from my time in the army and I certainly was not motivated by any special nobility.
12
Our retired military leaders (generals, admirals) should stand together under a copy of this column and tell the nation that this man is unfit to command. They would be disciplined enough to avoid saying what decent people think and feel about this pig of a man named Donald J. Trump.
7
During the late Vietnam Nam plenty of people evaded the draft. Anybody could see that this wasn't a war, like WWII, where the enemy was clear cut and the cause was right. More importantly, anybody could see that the draft wasn't fair. It sent men who weren't planning on attending college to go and die in the jungle and it allowed the upper class boys to stay home.
Back then college wasn't the defining event in a mans career. But it was the defining marker for social class. It wasn't noble to be drafted although the men who enlisted did indeed have nobility. The guys who were drafted just got caught because they didn't have the means or the connections to evade.
There's no reason to be guilty if you evaded that draft - unless you act like a trump about it.
Back then college wasn't the defining event in a mans career. But it was the defining marker for social class. It wasn't noble to be drafted although the men who enlisted did indeed have nobility. The guys who were drafted just got caught because they didn't have the means or the connections to evade.
There's no reason to be guilty if you evaded that draft - unless you act like a trump about it.
7
Bill Clinton used whatever deferments he could find and doesn't appear to have one bit of guilt about it. People thought he was fit to serve. George W. Bush wasn't putting himself in harm's way either. Why is Trymp the devil when he did what so many have done? He didn't attack the Khans, they attacked him on a national stage and exploited their son's death for political purposes.. Shane on them and shame on anyone who tries to say what Trump did was any different than what millions of others did, including some former presidents.
3
I really don’t think that serving or not serving in Vietnam should be regarded as a litmus test for honor and courage. The war in Vietnam was a war we shouldn’t have been in. Our support of the French turned what should have been the end of the colonial era in Southeast Asia into a proxy war against communism – because if the country that’s supposed to support the right of people to determine their own destiny is against you, where else are you going to get support?
This was not WWII or even the Korean War – it was a corrupt mess into which our country’s leaders dumped 18 year old boys like they were little more than fuel for an engine. That some went and some didn’t should be no surprise. For an 18 year old it took courage to follow either path, and one could just as well ask whether more who served should have said NO as to ask why those who avoided service didn’t say YES. I was fortunate not to have to make the choice because my lottery number of 10 was issued the year the draft stopped, but I still remember nights of fear before that worrying about how I was going to handle being torn away from home.
When we stop the barbaric and antiquated practice of sending 18 year old boys into combat, then we can have a conversation about who is brave and who isn’t, but please don’t make choices over Vietnam service the measure of a man.
This was not WWII or even the Korean War – it was a corrupt mess into which our country’s leaders dumped 18 year old boys like they were little more than fuel for an engine. That some went and some didn’t should be no surprise. For an 18 year old it took courage to follow either path, and one could just as well ask whether more who served should have said NO as to ask why those who avoided service didn’t say YES. I was fortunate not to have to make the choice because my lottery number of 10 was issued the year the draft stopped, but I still remember nights of fear before that worrying about how I was going to handle being torn away from home.
When we stop the barbaric and antiquated practice of sending 18 year old boys into combat, then we can have a conversation about who is brave and who isn’t, but please don’t make choices over Vietnam service the measure of a man.
5
It is interesting... no one questioned why Bill Clinton did not serve in the military when he ran for president in 1992 and 1996. Probably it was not important then but why is important now?
2
Read the article. It's important because of the appalling lack of understanding, respect, and empathy this candidate demonstrates for what serving in the military requires and risks of the people and their families who do.
1
I don't recall Bill Clinton casually saying that he didn't like soldiers who were captured, making disparaging remarks about a Gold Star family, or accepting a purple star from a vet and saying that he always wanted a purple star, and this was the easier way to get it, ha,ha. By the way, Bill Clinton received lots of grief about evading the draft during his election, but he was not the ludicrous, ignorant, pathetic man that Trump is in regard to his attitude toward the brave men and women that have served in the military.
4
It was actually a very big deal at the time especially since in 1992 he was running against a Navy combat pilot who'd was shot down in action. His non service and letter to the draft board what's used extensively by the Bush campaign surrogates. I do wish people who make these snarky comments would remember if they are old enough, or at least use the Internet and do a little research before they start pounding on the keyboard.
3
Who served, who didn't serve, who was lucky in the lottery all miss the broader issue. That being the US government wanted the Vietnam War and got their wishes.
The "domino theory" hogwash fed to the public by both Johnson and Nixon was nothing but a delusional lie. And the audacity of both of those horrible Presidents to say "I won't be the first President to lose a war" caused the death of +/-60,000 good souls not to mention the countless with life altering injuries both physical and psychological. And the Vietnamese dead, wounded, scarred went well into the hundreds of thousands.
Americans never learn, as was witnessed by the Bush/Cheney lies about WMD in Iraq. Again, more lies led to more dead US soldiers and the total destruction of the Middle East including the rise of ISIS.
When will America, the strongest most powerful country on earth, ever learn from its past? Most likely never.
The "domino theory" hogwash fed to the public by both Johnson and Nixon was nothing but a delusional lie. And the audacity of both of those horrible Presidents to say "I won't be the first President to lose a war" caused the death of +/-60,000 good souls not to mention the countless with life altering injuries both physical and psychological. And the Vietnamese dead, wounded, scarred went well into the hundreds of thousands.
Americans never learn, as was witnessed by the Bush/Cheney lies about WMD in Iraq. Again, more lies led to more dead US soldiers and the total destruction of the Middle East including the rise of ISIS.
When will America, the strongest most powerful country on earth, ever learn from its past? Most likely never.
21
I’m struck by all the different sorts of guilt expressed here, both in the original column and in the comments. I’ve felt guilt for most of my life for having fought in Vietnam. People often tell me I shouldn't, because I was ordered to go there, but I grew up in the shadow of the Nuremburg trials and learned that “I was only following orders” is not an acceptable excuse.
The thought occurs to me that some of us are simply more susceptible to guilt than others, and that we’d feel guilty no matter what we did. I think this is a good and necessary thing; the world would be in even worse straits than it is if we didn’t have plenty of people thinking hard about whether they’d done the right thing or not.
The thought occurs to me that some of us are simply more susceptible to guilt than others, and that we’d feel guilty no matter what we did. I think this is a good and necessary thing; the world would be in even worse straits than it is if we didn’t have plenty of people thinking hard about whether they’d done the right thing or not.
28
The good news, if there is any, is that once Trump is defeated in November by President Clinton The American People will never again be subjected to another idiotic Trump game show or anything else except the occasional TMZ Take Down spot.
Trump has so damaged his brand that nobody will want to associate with the little maggot ever again.
I doubt if even wife number 3 will stick around.
Trump has so damaged his brand that nobody will want to associate with the little maggot ever again.
I doubt if even wife number 3 will stick around.
1
I basically agree, but when Melania turns 50, she had better have her bags packed, and retained the services of a good divorce lawyer, because that's when The Donald will most likely show her the door.
Does anyone remember why we marched off to war in Vietnam? Why did 58,220 young Americans die? The best and brightest who engineered America's war in Vietnam largely did not serve. Nor have they served in Afghanistan or Iraq. And those calling for boots on the ground in Syria will not serve. Trump's multiple deferments from service is typical of those of his economic class.
In contrast, during World War II virtually all Americans served. BGen Theodore Roosevelt landed with the first wave at Utah Beach on D-Day.
A bone spur should not be disqualifying from national service. Nothing short of a serious disability should be disqualifying from national service. When America decides to go to war, no one gets a pass.
In contrast, during World War II virtually all Americans served. BGen Theodore Roosevelt landed with the first wave at Utah Beach on D-Day.
A bone spur should not be disqualifying from national service. Nothing short of a serious disability should be disqualifying from national service. When America decides to go to war, no one gets a pass.
6
I have a friend whose brother-in-law, despite his poor vision was drafted and went to Vietnam. He died in 2013 from lung disease after he was exposed to agent orange. The Khan family made the ultimate sacrifice, their son never returned. Her silence at the DNC convention spoke volumes. Thank you for this beautiful article.
4
While I'm all for pillorying Trump for any number of things, my question is this: Where was this criticism vis-a-vis supporting the war but avoiding at all costs serving in the military when Dick Cheney was around, never mind George W.?
If there were an Olympics for avoiding military service during the Vietnam era, Dick Cheney would have won the gold. According to past comments when queried about his draft status, Cheney claims that he had other things to do.
If there were an Olympics for avoiding military service during the Vietnam era, Dick Cheney would have won the gold. According to past comments when queried about his draft status, Cheney claims that he had other things to do.
4
You've put your finger on one of Trump's many problems: he doesn't feel "the weight of having seen others go off (to war) in his head--friends, neighbors, classmates, teammates..." I doubt that Trump's friends from the late-60's went off to the war. There were plenty of deferments available and I'm sure they all got them.
5
The power of the truth to set us free! Instead of hiding your own experience and selfish motives, you exposed the truth, and allowed us to see a distinction that matters deeply in this situation. Thank you for gifting me with a bit more of "the wisdom to know the difference" and its ensuing serenity. Actions taken from a place of serenity has proved to be much more effective in my life.
14
I remember that night in December, 1969 also; as I recall, I had a student deferment my freshman year then the draft lottery yielded my number in the upper 300 something. I dropped the deferment and was never called to service. Nor did I volunteer. Life happened, marriage, finished undergraduate and law school........I have enjoyed perhaps more than my fair share of life success.
That said, while I know I would have served had fate dealt me a low number, a single regret I do carry to this day is that I did not serve in the military when it was truly my turn.
That said, while I know I would have served had fate dealt me a low number, a single regret I do carry to this day is that I did not serve in the military when it was truly my turn.
3
Actually, the Vietnam War sucked then, and it still sucks now. Why should anybody apologize for not fighting in that war? What this writer is really saying is that he grew-up, sold-out, and joined the mainstream of social and professional life. To do so, he had to go to Canossa, which in this context meant kissing the ring of military and law-enforcement, renouncing his former counter-cultural self. This is nothing more than 'saying the right thing.' It's actually, less courageous than Trump. All this guy did was conform and evolve with the times, like Talleyrand the chameleon. People are always calling Trump a fascist. But actually, this knee-jerk, reflexive, brain-dead 'support' for troops and police is more fascist than anything Trump has done. Everybody should realize this. Trump is the first politician I have ever heard who doesn't automatically kowtow to the military establishment in this country.
5
"a desire to make amends, to carry the weight of citizenship" - I don't think Trump has the mental capacity for that desire, which is precisely why we should not vote for him
10
I too watched that lottery, but I saw my number come up in the low hundreds (136 if I remember correctly). The draft was expected to pull into the 200's. I dropped my student deferment later that year, but I was not called.
I feel no shame for that, I did drop my deferment, but I do feel that all who went to war then and in future wars deserve my respect. I never understood the hatred and insults that were piled on those men as they returned. It's not like they wanted to go either.
So I find Mr. Trump's absurd claim of a military boarding school giving him military experience absurd. But his behavior and self-aggrandizement is beyond absurd. I find the wearing of that Purple Heart he was given earlier in the week particularly disgusting. He can accept it from the veteran but he HAS NO RIGHT to wear it.
My father was awarded a Purple Heart for being wounded crawling along a ridgeline under direct enemy fire to lay communication lines on Iwo Jima. He was a Marine and 22 years old. It makes me physically sick to see Donald Trump wearing that same medal that took so much from so many to earn. "I always wanted one", he said. Well there is only one way to get one Mr. Trump and you don't make the grade.
I feel no shame for that, I did drop my deferment, but I do feel that all who went to war then and in future wars deserve my respect. I never understood the hatred and insults that were piled on those men as they returned. It's not like they wanted to go either.
So I find Mr. Trump's absurd claim of a military boarding school giving him military experience absurd. But his behavior and self-aggrandizement is beyond absurd. I find the wearing of that Purple Heart he was given earlier in the week particularly disgusting. He can accept it from the veteran but he HAS NO RIGHT to wear it.
My father was awarded a Purple Heart for being wounded crawling along a ridgeline under direct enemy fire to lay communication lines on Iwo Jima. He was a Marine and 22 years old. It makes me physically sick to see Donald Trump wearing that same medal that took so much from so many to earn. "I always wanted one", he said. Well there is only one way to get one Mr. Trump and you don't make the grade.
29
I recall walking in total silence with my 4 best friends to register for the draft. Boisterous kids who never shut up, we were utterly silent. It was the early 80's. It felt like a death march and a vigil. President Carter and Congress had reinstated draft registration July 21, 1980 after it was abolished in 1974. I remember that we were scared to death in large part because we knew so many guys in their 30's and 40's who had died in Vietnam. Those that did return were forever changed. A guy I admired returned unrecognizable, and having survived the horrors of war, committed suicide shortly after coming home. It was unspoken, but all of us who went that day were sure if called we would have to serve, whether we wanted to or not. I can feel nothing but sadness in reading this piece. I believe there's nothing redemptive to be drawn from the massive draft evasion that occurred during the Vietnam War, and those who did evade, despite years of introspection, are in no position to offer us any insights. Donald Trump is entirely unfit to be president, he has shown that in too many ways to count. His utter contempt for those who have made the greatest of sacrifices in military service is arguably the most striking trait which renders him more than indecent. Trump is inherently defective because he has shown he is unfit to be commander-in-chief. Draft evasion, ironically, is not the real issue. The author making it the basis of his thesis says far more about him than about Trump.
10
I am a Hillary supporter, and I have to agree. I do not hold the deferments against him. The war was too controversial for it to be a litmus of character in a young man - even Trump. I won't second guess what "actually" occurred, or why.
But what is his character 50+ years later? What is his character today? Like many, I still see a boy.
But what is his character 50+ years later? What is his character today? Like many, I still see a boy.
13
Read Mr. Gup's column. You obviously did not. He specifically writes he does no hold against Trump his deferment. This is about his amoral attitude - and crass attacks on John McCain and the Gold Star parents of their son, a Muslim who was slain in Iraq in 2004 and volunteered to go - and would not have been allowed to be born in America had Trump's policies banning all Muslims from America were in effect at the time of his Pakiatani parents emigration to Amerida.
I see nothing wrong with deferments--not every American can do his best for the country on a battle field.
Yet, one cannot disparage those who have served.
Trump should be thankful, grhateful and empathetic.
Yet, one cannot disparage those who have served.
Trump should be thankful, grhateful and empathetic.
4
Nonsense. The brave ones were those who refused to fight. There's no honor in blaming others for one's own engagement in immoral behavior.
4
Well, in 1968 I finished college and joined the Navy, Trump got a doctor's note. I do not hold it against him, however what I do object to is his inability to say I am sorry and try to better himself by putting others down. He is a flawed person who could never represent me or my country.
9
More election year nonsense, and another I do not like Trump article to add to the fray. Regrettably, the Vietnam war was not one of our military's greatest moments, and no one who served in it, can reflect on their accomplishments the way the veterans of WW II could. As things have turned out. we really did not need to be there, but it seemed so essential at the time, we jumped in even as the French were leaving in defeat. Having been in Hanoi recently, I was amazed at how popular Americans are. I stayed in a hotel right by the US Embassy in the middle of Hanoi. There is a huge American flag flying over the Embassy, right in the center of Hanoi! People stop you on the street and ask if you are an American and then tell you, "We love America," when you say you are. We need to move on.
More important, we face important challenges as a country, and the choices we have to make deserve better analysis and debate than articles like this. As Trump has made clear, he was opposed to the war in Iraq. If he were president at the time, we would not be talking about past sacrifices in Iraq. I prefer not to wallow in the past and worry about the future.
More important, we face important challenges as a country, and the choices we have to make deserve better analysis and debate than articles like this. As Trump has made clear, he was opposed to the war in Iraq. If he were president at the time, we would not be talking about past sacrifices in Iraq. I prefer not to wallow in the past and worry about the future.
1
eight years old in 1969 made me half a generation too young for vietnam and another half too old for the gulf and its sequels; thus it's been easy to be anti-war. easier still has been that happy intuition, 'there but for the grace of god go i,' as i observe the distinctive malaise of vets i know.
in chemo i sat with a guy wearing a ball cap celebrating da nang. he was dying of an agent orange cancer, losing his job, his house, everything, waiting desperately for va coverage. as i recall it, the va publicly took responsibility the month after he died.
i asked him if he felt like a fool, serving a country that lets him twist in the wind. how can you wear that hat, knowing how it's all turned out?
he said, my country needed me. which to me annoys, answering real events with abstraction. yet survival, even of an ordinary disease, brings its own guilty legacy. what is the point of life, after all, but to be needed.
in chemo i sat with a guy wearing a ball cap celebrating da nang. he was dying of an agent orange cancer, losing his job, his house, everything, waiting desperately for va coverage. as i recall it, the va publicly took responsibility the month after he died.
i asked him if he felt like a fool, serving a country that lets him twist in the wind. how can you wear that hat, knowing how it's all turned out?
he said, my country needed me. which to me annoys, answering real events with abstraction. yet survival, even of an ordinary disease, brings its own guilty legacy. what is the point of life, after all, but to be needed.
4
You know, not everybody feels guilt about avoiding the Vietnam war, nor should they. It was a bad war, a senseless war, one where old men were sending lots of young men to die for what exactly? My husband didn't go, nor did his brother, or any of his cousins, or brother-in-law, or any of his friends. They all managed to avoid it somehow, mostly legally, sometimes not so much. They protested and burned their draft cards and ultimately it was those rowdy war protesters who ended that war, and the draft with it. And good for them and good for us.
10
Those who served and those who protested both deserve respect. Although the risk to losing life and limb or PTSD was great for those who served, the risk to those that protested in terms of career, respect, and sometimes, even safety, was also present. But Donald Trump did neither. His entire professional and private life has been devoted to only one cause--the glorification of Donald Trump. He has no record of any public service to his country or his community. His voiced disrespect for John McCain's military service, his disrespect for the Khans, and yes, even his disrespect for his opponent's lifelong service to her country and community show that he has only contempt for those who do believe that service to others is admirable.
Amen. I, too, vividly remember that Sunday when draft numbers were picked. I had a boyfriend who had a very high number so he did not serve. I also watched as my best friend's husband, who had a very low number, was sent off to Viet Nam. He then came back to the States and pursued a career as a firefighter in Lincoln, NE. He is a hero to me. Donald Trump is an entitled spoiled whiney brat.
14
Donald has the first, recorded, real case of AFFLUENZA and now he has passed that disease along to his sons and daughter.
The individual people in the military are to be respected as anyone that is forced to place their life at risk for something other than themselves. However, the people that fought to end that war are those to be honored, for not only did they put their lives at risk, they did so because it was the right thing to do!
5
The hate poured on Bill Clinton by the Republicans was as much a result of his draft dodging as anything else. But at least Bill stood by what he did and was an active anti-war protester. Trump also a draft dodger seems to have been quite casual about this act. Now, how will his fellow Republicans react?
9
I also vividly remember the night the men (boys) in my group nervously watched the drawing of our draft numbers. My number was high and I wasn't called. I had the opportunity to finish college, medical school and start a 20+ year career as a US Navy Medical Officer. My children have served as well--two in-country in Iraq at the same time. How can anyone equate business success and avoiding STDs with service and sacrifice? Mr. Trump truly has a black heart and no soul.
14
In 1969, I was one of those who went to war in place of people
like Donald Trump. I hated the war, but believed that unless I left
the country, I had no right to let others take the risk of death for me.
I thought it was over after all these years. Then I heard Mr. Trump
say that "he sacrificed too by working hard to make money."
What utter horse manure.
He likes to call people names. There are a few I can think of for him.
like Donald Trump. I hated the war, but believed that unless I left
the country, I had no right to let others take the risk of death for me.
I thought it was over after all these years. Then I heard Mr. Trump
say that "he sacrificed too by working hard to make money."
What utter horse manure.
He likes to call people names. There are a few I can think of for him.
14
“We all have the sense that we, too, owe the country something of ourselves.”
Yes, but not because of the Vietnam War. That was another of our stupid wars. No need to feel guilty for avoiding an obvious fiasco.
Yes, but not because of the Vietnam War. That was another of our stupid wars. No need to feel guilty for avoiding an obvious fiasco.
3
You said it best in the very last sentence: "No one with so little appreciation of past sacrifices should be in a position to make still more demands of others".
A Commander in Chief with no empathy, who is sending off young men and women to fight, would be the ultimate travesty.
A Commander in Chief with no empathy, who is sending off young men and women to fight, would be the ultimate travesty.
16
Those whose parents could afford it , sent their sons to college in those days to avoid service. Unfair ? Yes. Donald did what everyone who could afford it did. Check out all the big money players . Most of them ducked.
The draft worked ok for me . Except for hearing loss from training gunfire, I got out in one piece and went to college on the GI Bill which I couldn't have afforded on my own.
Those who didn't serve missed an experience that was good or bad based on circumstances.
The draft worked ok for me . Except for hearing loss from training gunfire, I got out in one piece and went to college on the GI Bill which I couldn't have afforded on my own.
Those who didn't serve missed an experience that was good or bad based on circumstances.
1
Liberal guilt and narcissistic fascination with it is clearly more important than the suffering and deaths of real soldiers under terrible conditions.
4
It is ironic that there were men I knew who graduated West Point with ''delusions of grandeur'' who led our nation into the Vietnam quagmire. The point raised by a sociopath like Trump on every question and issue that arises is that he's a pathological liar who out of compulsion, carelessness, or laziness continually falsifies facts and history, and views anyone pointing this out as an ''enemy'' to ''be destroyed.''
As for self-certified commentators complaining that the media 'gives too much attention to tracking Trump' - and not enough to the background of Hillary Clinton (?!?)- We know it must be very uncomfortable to realize that your party has thoughtlessly and cravenly nominated a psychotic who gets stuck on uncomfortable obsessions like attempting to defame and slander Gold Star military families who have sacrificed their son for our country. But, it has!! What is more none of its major officials have demanded an apology from Trump. They are craven cowards and embrace their twisted interpretation of 'party loyalty' than morality or principle a few exceptions like the Bush family, Mitt Romney, and Meg Whitman. But, John McCain continues to follow like a scared incumbent rather than lead like the man of principle he's always represented that he is at his core. During the election of 2008 - John McCain exhibited that core when he refused to stoop low and embrace the ugly 'Birther' wing of the GOP's white tent. But, as of today, he's looking like a hollow man.
As for self-certified commentators complaining that the media 'gives too much attention to tracking Trump' - and not enough to the background of Hillary Clinton (?!?)- We know it must be very uncomfortable to realize that your party has thoughtlessly and cravenly nominated a psychotic who gets stuck on uncomfortable obsessions like attempting to defame and slander Gold Star military families who have sacrificed their son for our country. But, it has!! What is more none of its major officials have demanded an apology from Trump. They are craven cowards and embrace their twisted interpretation of 'party loyalty' than morality or principle a few exceptions like the Bush family, Mitt Romney, and Meg Whitman. But, John McCain continues to follow like a scared incumbent rather than lead like the man of principle he's always represented that he is at his core. During the election of 2008 - John McCain exhibited that core when he refused to stoop low and embrace the ugly 'Birther' wing of the GOP's white tent. But, as of today, he's looking like a hollow man.
2
An intregral component of the Vietnam War was lying by Nixon, Kissinger, and Westmorland. Every citizen should have read the "Pentagon Papers" by now. Veterans are still angry.
1
First, Trump ought to zip it. Second, we ought to thank all those that went to fight the wars that made each President feel better and up his ratings. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. These wars did not save The U.S., they did not even save the countries we went to "save." These wars killed Americans. When are "we" The American people going to understand that our responsibility is to protect the Armed Forces from stupid leaders. The Armed Forces will, have, and with out question die for us. Let your vote count, Please!!
5
Trump never sat at college waiting for his lottery number because that system went into effect after he graduated. It is another brazen lie about why he did not serve. So this article is based on a false predicate.
4
I remember my brother waiting to hear if he would be called, by birthday, but he was relieved to learn he would be able to continue with college, and his life. He would have gone, if called. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy for those who cheated, or fled. That was cowardly, in my eyes, and in the eyes of the parents of 55,000 young Americans who died for no good reason.
1
Thank you for capturing the essence of what Americans were thinking and feeling about the war in Vietnam and how those feelings, decisions and actions from decades ago continue to have a significant impact on our conscience today.
4
I too had a deferment, because of my job. It was a critical skill needed for the defense effort. But I was really happy for that deferment, for if I did have to go to fight in Vietnam, a war which I did not support, I would not have come back alive.
So even though I think he is a nut case I can't criticize Trump on this issue.
So even though I think he is a nut case I can't criticize Trump on this issue.
It's not the Trump deferment so much, it's the HYPOCRISY!
One of the reasons that that genocidal war ended was due to men who "dodged" the draft.There is no reason for guilt whatsoever. Humanity owes them thanks.
1
My father was unable to serve in WWII for physical reasons. I could tell it was always a point of embarrassment for him that he wasn't allowed to wear a military uniform and serve his country. Yes, it is one thing not to serve, and another to fail to appreciate the nature of the sacrifice of those who did.
2
Draft #11. Hoping to avoid combat I dodged being drafted into the Army by joining the Navy. But it didn't workout. I ended up in Nam. I didn't want to be be the last man to die in Nam. But, that didn't workout either. On the very last day of the war I saw it happen to a US Navy pilot. His name is on that wall in DC. It took me a very painful forty years to visit him and that wall. I honored him with a hand salute and gave him and all of us a moment of silence. Some of us earn hour the hard way.
2/3 Of me came back from Nam, 1/3 didn't. It pains me when I think of what Trump did to Mr. and Mrs. Khan. Their son earned our honor. They earned our honor. Trump dishonored them and all of us.
2/3 Of me came back from Nam, 1/3 didn't. It pains me when I think of what Trump did to Mr. and Mrs. Khan. Their son earned our honor. They earned our honor. Trump dishonored them and all of us.
8
Anyone who lived thru that time knows how unfair the draft was. People with money and connections mostly used them ( I was one) to avoid the horror and danger of combat. I felt guilty then and still do. My guilt did not prevent me from admiring and pitying those who served in that gruesome conflict. Most of them would have rather not gone, but they did anyway. It has been interesting to note that men who didnt serve in wartime are the quickest to send others into danger: Cheney, Bush, LBJ, Reagan, John Wayne, and of course the blustering, bombastic, buffoon- Donald. Bush was quick to pull the trigger on an elective war that may have started WW3 ( over a period of years) by the eradication of the power structure in the Middle East. So eager to spend the blood of others. So reluctant to put themselves at risk.
8
This is nothing more than a diatribe about how bad a person Trump is. I personally dislike Trump for many reasons and will not vote for him, but my feelings and this article have nothing to do with his draft dodging.
The author was a draft dodger, Bill Clinton was a draft dodger and Donald Trump was a draft dodger. George Bush was effectively a draft dodger by joining the Air National Guard. In that respect they are all the same. But of course in many other ways they are all different.
The author was a draft dodger, Bill Clinton was a draft dodger and Donald Trump was a draft dodger. George Bush was effectively a draft dodger by joining the Air National Guard. In that respect they are all the same. But of course in many other ways they are all different.
Those who did not fight in Vietnam do NOT owe a debt to those who did. We can have great sympathy, solidarity for those who were honorable in how they served and we can, and should, certainly insist, demand that they receive appropriate compensation for the hardship they endured. They, too, were victims of the war. But those who avoided going to Vietnam because they honestly opposed the war, and who took other risks, imprisonment, being ostracized, etc. AND who actively opposed the war, again taking risks -- those were honorable people who do not "owe" anything to the soldiers, except, of course, that all of US society owes those veterans the compensation to make up for the hardships they suffered. But those of us who opposed the war owe no "moral debt" to the soldiers.
HOWEVER -- those who evaded military service for selfish reasons, especially if they came from privileged families, most especially those who supported the war effort but refused to participate and instead supported others going to war and risking death and more certainly, lifelong trauma, those who opted out while sending others -- yes, those are reprehensible people and they do owe a moral debt to those who served. Which category does G. W. Bush and Donald Trump belong to?
HOWEVER -- those who evaded military service for selfish reasons, especially if they came from privileged families, most especially those who supported the war effort but refused to participate and instead supported others going to war and risking death and more certainly, lifelong trauma, those who opted out while sending others -- yes, those are reprehensible people and they do owe a moral debt to those who served. Which category does G. W. Bush and Donald Trump belong to?
6
The Vietnam era antiwar protest movement fizzled the moment the first draft lottery numbers were drawn. Suddenly more than 90 percent of men knew they wouldn't be drafted. The draft lottery was one reason the Nixon administration was able to prolong the war until the North Vietnamese agreed to the Paris Peach Accords.
1
I get tired of people equating draft dodging with cowardice. It takes huge bravery to go against your society and the law because you don't want to fight an illegal war of aggression. Tim O'Brien wrote about this in his classic collection of stories "The Things They Carried." Like it or not, there is a certain type of cowardice to following orders and "going along." To me, the people who protested vigorously, burned their draft cards and were arrested "sacrificed for their country." We need more such sacrifice. Trump, of course, was not a draft dodger. He followed the law. He was just a self serving rich kid watching out for number one, one of many, not so different from "C Average" George W. Bush and his National Guard duty escape during the same period.
5
Most of the 'draft dodgers' weren't principled protesters against a war they didn't believe in. Most of the draft dodgers were people who did not want their lives or careers impacted by military service, or be put in danger by participating in or being near combat. For some such as George Bush or Dan Quayle, the National Guard presented a convenient refuge. Others like Dick Cheney took advantage of various deferments because they had 'other priorities'.
Self interest is not an unreasonable individual choice to avoid military service if legal options present themselves. It's the obscene hypocritical public belligerent patriotism, the enthusiasm for military aggression as a political tool, the faux lauding of veterans (while stinting benefits and support), that are the hallmark of the dodger politician that offends me. Don't wrap yourself in the flag if you weren't willing to risk bleeding for it.
As a US Army veteran, who served in Vietnam, I will shake hands with Arlo Guthrie, but (metaphorically) spit in the face of Dick Cheney.
Self interest is not an unreasonable individual choice to avoid military service if legal options present themselves. It's the obscene hypocritical public belligerent patriotism, the enthusiasm for military aggression as a political tool, the faux lauding of veterans (while stinting benefits and support), that are the hallmark of the dodger politician that offends me. Don't wrap yourself in the flag if you weren't willing to risk bleeding for it.
As a US Army veteran, who served in Vietnam, I will shake hands with Arlo Guthrie, but (metaphorically) spit in the face of Dick Cheney.
I cannot even remotely imagine a "candidate" (disavowed by Republican leaders like McCain and Romney, who truly embody values always prized by the GOP) of having the capacity to thank the returning veterans for their military service and decorating them. His 'candidacy' amounts to a cheap and lowlife power grab, akin to buying a time-honored British title, but with all the brash ignorance of the fine points of Americanism of a total moron. The only way to address Trump is to recognize he does not speak the language of the founders and framers of this country, nor truly understand the country's system of governance, its institutions, its Americanism or patriotic manifest destiny. There is no human being except himself for whom he is capable of conveying his respect. His socialization stopped developing before the age of two. This commentator has it right and I am profoundly grateful for Ted Gup's clarion, transparent column.
4
For those splitting hairs over the term "draft dodger", why don't we call the student deferments what they really were. Legal dodging to ensure the wealthy didn't have to send their children to the war.
11
This just reconfirms my belief that the supposed "anti-war" movement at the time of the Vietnam conflict was really an "anti-draft" movement. And I am glad this man finally realized that better men than him died doing their duty.
1
I despise Donald Trump. But any media commentary about him being a draft dodger are illegitimate. Why? Because the media gave Bill Clinton a pass for being a draft dodger.
The media has made a practice of giving democrats a pass on military service--even outright draft dodging--while attacking Republicans for service in the National Guard.
This is an area where the media should have an objective standard but utterly fails and shows its bias. If military service is important, it should be important for both parties. If draft dodging is shameful, it should be shameful for both parties. How hard is it for media to keep its biases out of a straight-forward issue as national service?
The media has made a practice of giving democrats a pass on military service--even outright draft dodging--while attacking Republicans for service in the National Guard.
This is an area where the media should have an objective standard but utterly fails and shows its bias. If military service is important, it should be important for both parties. If draft dodging is shameful, it should be shameful for both parties. How hard is it for media to keep its biases out of a straight-forward issue as national service?
1
The point wasn't whether Democrats were "draft dodgers", although it WAS all over the media in the 1990's that Bill Clinton had avoided the draft. The Republicans tried very hard to turn it into a campaign issue.
The point is that Trump seems to feel no sense of empathy for, or obligation to those who did serve. Imagine candidate Bill Clinton saying something like "I like people who weren't captured", or that chasing women and avoiding sexually transmitted diseases were his personal Vietnam Nam.
The point is that Trump seems to feel no sense of empathy for, or obligation to those who did serve. Imagine candidate Bill Clinton saying something like "I like people who weren't captured", or that chasing women and avoiding sexually transmitted diseases were his personal Vietnam Nam.
I was 4-F. My number was 55 or 57 (its been a while). Had it been WWII, I would somehow signed up to work against a true threat. But I found no logical rationale for that Asian war of the 60/70's, ginned up by chest thumping military industrial complex capitalists and their politicians, that the US would be next. To fall like a domino, an easily sold and hokey analogy that convinced the many who died and suffered needlessly, on all sides. And ... for nothing.
3
Crazy Donald aside. The citizens of the U.S. should no more be proud of the soldiers that fought in Vietnam than the people of Germany should be proud of the soldiers that fought in WW2. This country murdered over a million women and children in that pointless war. My heroes were the conscientious objectors...... There are many things that make the Donald unfit for office. Being a Vietnam draft-dodger is not one of them.
1
Donald Trump displayed his usual astonishing ineptness in his response to the Khans. However, the Khans should contemplate what might have been if Trump’s proposed ban on travel and immigration from Muslims countries noted for exporting terrorists had been put into effect prior to 2001. The three thousand Americans who died on September 11, 20012, might still be alive, including Muslim Americans who died when the Twin Towers collapsed. The costly War on Terrorism with its ghastly and mostly Muslim casualties might have been averted. The Khan family would still be in America, but their son might not have died a hero’s death in Iraq. The best time to have imposed a ban on travel and immigration from countries that export terrorism would have been prior to the 9-11 terror attacks. The second best time to impose such a ban is now. U.S. Code § 1182 (Inadmissible Aliens) states: “Whenever the president finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.” If the deaths of thousands of Americans in terror attack doesn’t justify a suspension of travel and immigration from countries that export terrorists, what would?
1
What would likely have stopped 9/11 is if Bush listened to the Clinton people, or if Gore's victory in the election had not been overturned.
3
The article could have made a reference to Teddy Kennedy magically being assigned to our embassy in Paris during the Korean war. I bet he saw plenty of action there but he never expressed any guilt about it.
3
I am actually surprised that anyone could praise this column no matter how well it is written. I left college after my first year because I did not have the money to continue and was not smart enough to have a scholarship. I was a naive young man from a small town in Colorado when I was drafted. I was lucky enough to stay in the States for my two years, but the threat of being shipped out hung over my head every waking moment until I served over a year and was unlikely to be sent to Viet Nam. Writing this, I can still feel the fear of that young man. Also, only those that were drafted into the army can know the crushing feeling of having absolutely no control over one's life. After all, this is the land of the free (except for those young men "drafted" into war). To this day, I "carry the guilt" of having escaped physically going to war, where I - being the lousy soldier I was - would certainly have perished. Draft dodgers, no matter the reason, should not "carry the guilt" but rather "the shame."
3
Then there was Trump’s specious claim that he always identified with the military because of his schooling. In truth, Trump was not prepping for any career in the service, but needed reforming and discipline due to his temper. Much like today, he glosses over his lack of self-control and claims honorability he does not merit.
4
I was 361. It took me months to truly believe that the specter of going to a war I deeply disagreed with was lifted. The stories of friends who "lost" that lottery live with me every day.
7
I flunked my physical and had a 4-f, a permanent draft disqualification. Then I burned my draft card, a felony. I have never felt one single day of regret for my decision or disloyalty to my country. LBJ and Nixon were both guilty of war crimes and I hope they are buried with a stone in their shoe which hurts to this day. The phrase "my country right or wrong" always sounded like the mouthings of a stupid man.
But I never derided those who did serve because they were drafted. It was the eager enlistees, those 'kill a commie for Christ' guys who merit my loathing and disdain. You made your bed, sleep in it.
The terrible disgrace of this country is that Lt William Calley still walks free and so many more worthy men and women are dead.
But I never derided those who did serve because they were drafted. It was the eager enlistees, those 'kill a commie for Christ' guys who merit my loathing and disdain. You made your bed, sleep in it.
The terrible disgrace of this country is that Lt William Calley still walks free and so many more worthy men and women are dead.
5
As a daughter of a Vietnam Veteran, who enlisted in the Navy and then served in the US Marines, I have no problem with people who do not serve in the military. There are other forms of service. My parents both worked as teachers. My neighbor was a Lutheran minister. People work in healthcare. And I have friends who work in local government.
My father served this county, my grandfather served in WWII with medals, a great uncle served in Korea and Vietnam. Most recently my cousin served in Iraq and his wife in Afghanistan. Yet, people will ask me "what I am" or "where am I from." I'm frankly tired of being looked at or assumed that I am less American because of my skin color or last name. By the way, my family was in New Mexico before it was part of the US. So hearing people like Donald Trump want a Purple Heart and mocking a Gold Star family, it is insulting to say the least.
My father served this county, my grandfather served in WWII with medals, a great uncle served in Korea and Vietnam. Most recently my cousin served in Iraq and his wife in Afghanistan. Yet, people will ask me "what I am" or "where am I from." I'm frankly tired of being looked at or assumed that I am less American because of my skin color or last name. By the way, my family was in New Mexico before it was part of the US. So hearing people like Donald Trump want a Purple Heart and mocking a Gold Star family, it is insulting to say the least.
11
I opposed the war, and have never regretted it, and didn't go because my lottery number saved me from the agonizing choice that many, including Tim O'Brien, as he documents in "If I Die In a Combat Zone, Box Me Up and Ship Me Home." Since I grew up in conservative Louisiana, however, I had friends who served, some reluctantly, some proudly, so I was never self-righteous about my choice, or anti-military, since I'm not a pacifist. Some wars are worth fighting. The Vietnam War was not one of them. I admire the conscientious objectors who refused to go and I admire the ones with courage to go to Canada and I admire the ones who simply stood their ground. As O'Brien states in his book, "I was a coward. I went to war." I honor our veterans and servicemen every day, but I assume they feel differently than O'Brien did at a time when there was a military draft and he was drafted. Honor our troops, yes, but oppose leaders who misuse them to fight needless wars such as Vietnam and (obviously) the disastrous Iraq wars.
7
I was a big fan of Trumps performance during the debates, his position on phony free trade, on controlling the borders, but over the last few months his character flaws have manifested themselves almost daily. I guess i'll just have to wait for a more sane candidate. Leader of the Free World is beyond Trump's competency level.
2
I was a little too young for Vietnam. By the time I turned 18 in 1977, the draft didn't even exist.
But I saw the lingering effects of the war in my small upstate New York hometown. Some vets were able to move on with their lives, but others couldn't put the war behind them, including a Vietnam vet who lost his mind in a bar one night. The cops had to shoot him. He survived that shooting, but committed suicide a while later.
Here in my adopted hometown of Worcester, Ma., there is a veteran's shelter I pass frequently. You can see the vets - many of them from the Vietnam era - who hang around outside the shelter. They are down, out, forgotten, and invisible. I wish I could drive Trump past that shelter and watch his reaction. I would hope the experience would help humanize him. But I doubt it. More likely he would make a lame joke out of it.
But I saw the lingering effects of the war in my small upstate New York hometown. Some vets were able to move on with their lives, but others couldn't put the war behind them, including a Vietnam vet who lost his mind in a bar one night. The cops had to shoot him. He survived that shooting, but committed suicide a while later.
Here in my adopted hometown of Worcester, Ma., there is a veteran's shelter I pass frequently. You can see the vets - many of them from the Vietnam era - who hang around outside the shelter. They are down, out, forgotten, and invisible. I wish I could drive Trump past that shelter and watch his reaction. I would hope the experience would help humanize him. But I doubt it. More likely he would make a lame joke out of it.
4
I must point out one important difference between those who served in Viet Nam and recent middle east veterans. Many who went to Viet Nam were forced to go; conscripted. Those who served in Iraq were to a man(woman) volunteers. I don't claim to know if this should effect how we view them but certainly its an important distinction.
First High School reunion I attended was at Tan Son Nhat Air Base, Saigon. Seemed like every few days I saw classmates arriving and moving in country.
Evaders should feel guilt and remorse. But, that was a very long time ago and I, for one, do not begrudge them the safe lives they lived.
Evaders should feel guilt and remorse. But, that was a very long time ago and I, for one, do not begrudge them the safe lives they lived.
The list of those who avoided the draft during Vietnam is long - filled with names of young men from families who had money (first to send them to college) and influence. It didn't even take that much money. Being of that generation, I know some myself.
That's why I admired John Kerry so much and why the 'swift-boaters' were so abhorrent. He didn't take the 'outs' that were probably available to him. Mr and Mrs Khan's son went a step further by volunteering.
I don't blame Mr Trump for what he did to avoid the draft nor his sons for not volunteering. But his disgraceful treatment of the Khans and his inability to understand their sacrifice makes him unfit for the job of Commander-in-Chief. Period!
That's why I admired John Kerry so much and why the 'swift-boaters' were so abhorrent. He didn't take the 'outs' that were probably available to him. Mr and Mrs Khan's son went a step further by volunteering.
I don't blame Mr Trump for what he did to avoid the draft nor his sons for not volunteering. But his disgraceful treatment of the Khans and his inability to understand their sacrifice makes him unfit for the job of Commander-in-Chief. Period!
1
I'm waiting for the purple heart a veteran gave Trump to suddenly become a medal for something Trump did in the war. It feels like he has little respect for others and less of a hold on reality. Anything can happen. This chapter of American history is one of the most bizarre ever. I feel for Republicans who have to decide to vote for a lunatic or the another party.
Even those of us in the post Vietnam era, who registered but never served, feel an immense sense of gratitude to those who sacrifice for the safety and security of our country. If someone does not even have this minimum level of empathy and decency, how can they serve as the Commander in Chief?
1
It's impolite to call someone a 'dupe' and a 'babykiller'. But when they have been led to act by deliberate falsehoods, they have been duped. And when they have participated in military actions that result in mass killings, they are complicit in the killing of babies.
Vietnam was the mother of US wars 'of choice' conducted under 'false premises'. It's pretty much forgotten today, but WWII was still very much on people's minds, and the scale of German atrocities was still sinking in, with the question of guilt and complicity urgently felt to be one worth answering. Times have changed -- now it's honorable to 'serve your country' even if what you're doing doesn't serve your country, or anyone else, by objective measures. But back in the day, many individuals worried more about the consequences of their actions, even when they were defined as 'honorable'.
Vietnam was the mother of US wars 'of choice' conducted under 'false premises'. It's pretty much forgotten today, but WWII was still very much on people's minds, and the scale of German atrocities was still sinking in, with the question of guilt and complicity urgently felt to be one worth answering. Times have changed -- now it's honorable to 'serve your country' even if what you're doing doesn't serve your country, or anyone else, by objective measures. But back in the day, many individuals worried more about the consequences of their actions, even when they were defined as 'honorable'.
It is interesting that those who did serve in Vietnam have not won the presidency (Gore, Kerry, McCain) While those who either deferred (Clinton) or never served in Vietnam itself (Bush) have won.
Trump is the first (and only) person not to have served and to actively denigrate those that did.
Trump is the first (and only) person not to have served and to actively denigrate those that did.
1
He has now upped the ante by accepting a purple heart from a supporter who is a veteran. His response - I always wanted one of these. This is alot easier. To a support as a commander in chief someone who dismisses the sacrifice of soldiers who have actually earned the medal would undermine the nation's trust. Why would anyone want to serve and risk their future if they can be rewarded for their sacrifice by running for president and having alot of money.
47,424 soldiers sacrificed their lives in Viet Nam. I am a woman born in 1971. My father was stationed in Alaska of all places. By utter luck he never ended up in the jungles in 1968. Just imagine the dead's faces alive today when Donald Trump claims his sacrifice for this country. Shame on us all for letting him happen.
1
Trump is a ridiculous figure who quite plainly is not terribly bright. That said, it is astonishing to hear so many people in the year 2016 defending participation in the Vietnam war and castigating those who didn't "serve." Imagine average German citizens today condemning those who refused participation in the holocaust! It's stomach turning, frankly but the United States has never come to terms with its crimes in Indochina. I don't believe it ever will.
3
I chose not to join the military and go to Vietnam for a specific reason: it was an unjust, stupid war and we never should have been there. So I do not share Mr. Gup's guilt, and don't think he should feel guilty, either. I possessed what Mr. Gup calls "a sense of purpose" and a desire "to carry the weight of citizenship" all along. In fact, that's precisely why I refused to go to Vietnam.
4
I didn't fight in Viet Nam, and I advised my children to avoid the volunteer military. Viet Nam was a senseless disaster in which 56,000 Americans died, and Iraq has been an exercise in stupidity in which thousands of Americans have been brutally killed and wounded. Our military has succeeded in glorifying itself while our politicians only scratch their collective butts while voting for more war.
I'll defend my country against all comers, but I have to see the threat rather than to mindlessly follow brain-dead politicians or cartoonish generals.
I'll defend my country against all comers, but I have to see the threat rather than to mindlessly follow brain-dead politicians or cartoonish generals.
2
Sorry Mr Gup but I feel no guilt at having used deferments to avoid being forced to serve in the Vietnam war crime. Nor can I appreciate the "sacrifices" of those who did. What did those sacrifice who ordered them to go? Draftees do not willingly sacrifice but are rather sacrificed.
I don't care for Mr Trump but care even less for the too-casual use of the word nowadays. I don't recall the mention of it much in 1969.
I don't care for Mr Trump but care even less for the too-casual use of the word nowadays. I don't recall the mention of it much in 1969.
2
During the war in Vietnam it was easy for middle class and upper class young men to get out of being drafted. College deferments were given out until the war began to wind down. Working class and poor young men weren't apt to go to the doctor on a regular basis unless they had a real problem, so those "letters" didn't accompany them to their pre-induction physicals.
Why did this situation go on for so long? Did the government figure that they would have less criticism if they left the more affluent alone? My own physician who wrote my letter (really a note) told me that I was too healthy to be rejected. But I was.
Why did this situation go on for so long? Did the government figure that they would have less criticism if they left the more affluent alone? My own physician who wrote my letter (really a note) told me that I was too healthy to be rejected. But I was.
I am 64 and by the time my draft low draft number came up - in late '71 I believe - it was clear to almost everyone of my age that the Vietnam war was unwinnable and unjustifiable, and that our government had repeatedly lied to its own citizens about it. (I truthfully told my draft board I was gay, and received my 4-F.)
What I wish my generation had been able to do was to instill a healthy skepticism in the today's young when they were called upon to wage George Bush's vanity war in Iraq. All those new lives lost because they believed Bush and Cheney's lies about WMDs and Saddam's role on 9/11, all those men and women who were maimed, physically or psychologically, by the grotesque mismanagement of this utterly unnecessary mission. Maybe if there had been a draft, and maybe if there had more protests, and maybe if Vietnam escapees like me had spoken up more forcefully from our own experience with government mendacity, fewer young Americans would have perished in Iraq, America's worst foreign policy debacle ever.
What I wish my generation had been able to do was to instill a healthy skepticism in the today's young when they were called upon to wage George Bush's vanity war in Iraq. All those new lives lost because they believed Bush and Cheney's lies about WMDs and Saddam's role on 9/11, all those men and women who were maimed, physically or psychologically, by the grotesque mismanagement of this utterly unnecessary mission. Maybe if there had been a draft, and maybe if there had more protests, and maybe if Vietnam escapees like me had spoken up more forcefully from our own experience with government mendacity, fewer young Americans would have perished in Iraq, America's worst foreign policy debacle ever.
6
Yes! If there were still a draft, and everyone's son/daughter, grandson/granddaughter, brother/sister were put in harm's way, then the American people would stop being so passive about the numerous fruitless military interventions we've seen over the last 70 years.
I also remember December 1, 1969. My lottery number came up 270-something, high enough to virtually ensure that if I remained in school (that was never an issue) I would indeed avoid a trip to Vietnam and be able to get on with my life. Luck of the draw? Kismet? Random chance? Deus ex machina? Whatever it was, I played by someone else's rules and got lucky. I am sorry for those who were drafted to fight an ill-conceived, unwinnable war in which the servicemen and women were lied to and let down by both Johnson and Nixon. While I never felt guilty about not going to Vietnam, I also never denigrated the people who fought there - or in Lebanon, Panama, Grenada, Columbia, Kosovo, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, or dozens of other places that weren't talked about or even acknowledged. When you are a citizen of an empire, there is always someone fighting and dying for you somewhere in the world. The least that we can do is to acknowledge it.
Like Agilemind, after 47 adult years with the military, self-absorbed, self-serving peers, subordinates, and seniors are easy to spot. I have also seen few political leaders who are not self-serving and self-absorbed. We don’t have good choices this year for our votes. Leaders who care about the people, and not the Party, generally don’t run for office; they are actually out doing or creating something of value. This is a political season like none I have experienced; probably like none since the prelude to the Civil War.
I’m tired of the spin. When did the media decide they get to tell us what to think? When did the American public stop thinking for itself, and just listen to the opinions of the media outlet which agrees with some preconceived notion? I can’t find any real reporting today on the issues and candidates without the “reporter’s” slant. When do we get to hear what the candidate actually said, devoid of any interpretation by the “reporter” of what the candidate means or should have said? I chuckle at the “reporters’ who say Trump “can’t” do something in the campaign, just because it is not what is expected of politically correct politicians. I’m not a fan of his, never have been. I guess he proved the pundits who said he was a flash in the pan wrong in the primaries, and he doesn’t seem to be hurt by not coming from their cookie cutter so far.
One last thought; sacrifice is personal. I do not sacrifice by letting someone else fight or die or work for me.
I’m tired of the spin. When did the media decide they get to tell us what to think? When did the American public stop thinking for itself, and just listen to the opinions of the media outlet which agrees with some preconceived notion? I can’t find any real reporting today on the issues and candidates without the “reporter’s” slant. When do we get to hear what the candidate actually said, devoid of any interpretation by the “reporter” of what the candidate means or should have said? I chuckle at the “reporters’ who say Trump “can’t” do something in the campaign, just because it is not what is expected of politically correct politicians. I’m not a fan of his, never have been. I guess he proved the pundits who said he was a flash in the pan wrong in the primaries, and he doesn’t seem to be hurt by not coming from their cookie cutter so far.
One last thought; sacrifice is personal. I do not sacrifice by letting someone else fight or die or work for me.
1
Perhaps you opted out of military service because you were frightened or thought it would be inconvenient for you, but many of us did so because we felt that what the US was doing in SE Asia was dead wrong; I, for one, still feel that way. I don't feel I owe anyone from that era a feeling of gratitude. I didn't come from privilege, so almost all of my friends went to Vietnam, and either died or were radically changed when they returned. With the exception of several for whom the military was a calling, and who joined without being drafted, literally every person I knew who allowed themselves to be inducted was more fearful of prison than the war. Why would I feel some sort of gratitude now? Is there new evidence that the Vietcong were actually planning to attack California, or that cadres had landed near Seattle? I don't feel grateful to those who answered the call to kill literally millions of people in an invasion of a foreign country. Neither do I chastise them, the times being what they were.
When we started our new round of adventures in Iraq many festooned their autos with 'We support our troops' magnets. One that I saw was a bit more thoughtful, it said 'Remember that the Germans loved their troops too'.
When we started our new round of adventures in Iraq many festooned their autos with 'We support our troops' magnets. One that I saw was a bit more thoughtful, it said 'Remember that the Germans loved their troops too'.
4
Classic line and so true, "the absence of a soul that should now render him ineligible to represent this nation as commander in chief."
My bet is Trump would quickly turn interventionist warhawk as soon as he felt the heady power of being Commander in Chief. He is the sort of self-obsessed man who would toss away the lives of thousands of those who serve in our armed forces, all the while decrying Benghazi and four dead Americans there.
We've been through a War of Lies from two men who avoided serving in Vietnam. Do we want more American blood spilled in the Middle East?
My bet is Trump would quickly turn interventionist warhawk as soon as he felt the heady power of being Commander in Chief. He is the sort of self-obsessed man who would toss away the lives of thousands of those who serve in our armed forces, all the while decrying Benghazi and four dead Americans there.
We've been through a War of Lies from two men who avoided serving in Vietnam. Do we want more American blood spilled in the Middle East?
2
At my husband's 50th high school reunion last year, each of the veterans in the class stood up and announced his years of service, the branch and where he served. One lucky guy got to spend the war in Honolulu, Hawaii--that drew both cheers and boos!
I was choked up for them, and it was a frightening reminder of our youth. My friends who hoped for a deferment remember most details of their military physicals and the conditions that they pinned their hopes on. It is hard for me to believe that Donald Trump can't remember which foot had the bone spurs. It would have just been too important to forget.
As a woman, I was never in any danger of being drafted. And yet I still feel a form of the "survivors guilt" that Professor Gup describes. My life sailed on as my male colleagues shipped off to Viet Nam. It is not a surprise that this divisive war continues to haunt those of us for whom it was the ever-present background of our youth.
I was choked up for them, and it was a frightening reminder of our youth. My friends who hoped for a deferment remember most details of their military physicals and the conditions that they pinned their hopes on. It is hard for me to believe that Donald Trump can't remember which foot had the bone spurs. It would have just been too important to forget.
As a woman, I was never in any danger of being drafted. And yet I still feel a form of the "survivors guilt" that Professor Gup describes. My life sailed on as my male colleagues shipped off to Viet Nam. It is not a surprise that this divisive war continues to haunt those of us for whom it was the ever-present background of our youth.
3