I find it so interesting when people complain about illegal immigration. How many of those supporters have undocumented workers cutting their lawns, cleaning their pools, repairs at their homes, or picking up workers at a home improvement store parking lot. As long as they can save money that's all that matters. It always starts with money. Severe penalties for hiring illegals. Then they will complain about states' rights. Such phonies.
21
The simple, over-arching truth about immigration is biological: any species that over-populates its habitat and resources dooms itself. In human terms, "too many people" brings social unrest and injustices, crime, unemployment, inadequate health, education and nutrition, pollution, depletion of resources, etc. Over-population is the world's biggest problem and will only be exacerbated by climate change. There is nothing necessarily "racist" about immigration reforms, it's just realism. I would never vote for Trump, but Democrats are recklessly irresponsible on this issue. Many seem to think we're living in 1900. At this point in time, it's massively disingenuous to continue the notion that this country can absorb unlimited numbers of people, and keep breeding ourselves, without bringing on the devastating impacts of over-population.
88
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/us/politics/hillary-clinton-is-not-my-...
Hillary Clinton Is ‘Not My Abuela,’ Critics Say
Here's a list of recent past of Hillary's hostilities towards Illegal Aliens:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/07/08/jeb-bush...
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/03/11/how-hillary-clinton-and-berni...
How Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders Used to Talk About Immigration Laws
Hillary Clinton Is ‘Not My Abuela,’ Critics Say
Here's a list of recent past of Hillary's hostilities towards Illegal Aliens:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/07/08/jeb-bush...
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/03/11/how-hillary-clinton-and-berni...
How Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders Used to Talk About Immigration Laws
5
A cheap and easy solution: do not provide the " illegals" with the opportunity to hold jobs without a green card, or receive welfare, or receive free education and free medical care. Without those, the "illegals" will deport themselves at little or no cost to the U.S.
43
The NYT panicked when Donald Trump rose to prominence on the issue of illegal immigration. My guess is that the writers realized they could not defeat Trump based on the facts of illegal immigration so they instead attacked Trump’s personality.
We readers are still waiting to learn how many illegal immigrants are in the country as even the Census Bureau questions its own numbers (see the paper on the Census Bureau we site by Eric B. Jensen, Renuka Bhaskar, and Melissa Scopilliti of the Population Division). We want to know how much education the adults had while growing up in their home countries, how much federal, state, and local money is being spent on their children’s education and how well their children are doing in school. We would like to know how much we are spending on medical care, social services, police and the correctional system, and so on for average illegal immigrants, and for how long we are likely to continue spending this much or more. In other-words, how many generations will it take for the families of illegal immigrants to stop depending on welfare, including the Earned income Tax Credit.
We want to know how illegal immigration affects Americans and their families. What about providing us of estimates of the number of Americans who would not now be dependent on either welfare or SSI, if they had not had to compete with illegal immigrants for jobs. Please give us the facts.
We readers are still waiting to learn how many illegal immigrants are in the country as even the Census Bureau questions its own numbers (see the paper on the Census Bureau we site by Eric B. Jensen, Renuka Bhaskar, and Melissa Scopilliti of the Population Division). We want to know how much education the adults had while growing up in their home countries, how much federal, state, and local money is being spent on their children’s education and how well their children are doing in school. We would like to know how much we are spending on medical care, social services, police and the correctional system, and so on for average illegal immigrants, and for how long we are likely to continue spending this much or more. In other-words, how many generations will it take for the families of illegal immigrants to stop depending on welfare, including the Earned income Tax Credit.
We want to know how illegal immigration affects Americans and their families. What about providing us of estimates of the number of Americans who would not now be dependent on either welfare or SSI, if they had not had to compete with illegal immigrants for jobs. Please give us the facts.
74
I live in a community with a National Laboratory and many government funded workers employed to clean up nuclear waste sites from the Manhattan Project. Because of a plentiful supply of technically astute citizens there are also some technology companies. These techie areas often include workers from India, China and Japan with doctorates--immigrants but highly educated ones. But the rest of the economy is agricultural and service oriented (wine, wheat, corn, irrigation circles and stores and services and construction). Around here, agriculture and construction is heavily dependent on hispanic workers, who likely include illegal immigrants. The farm owners are probably Republican. I don't know the ins and outs of their situation, but I do know that technology to pick crops will be invented before agricultural workers no longer include illegals, even if the pay goes up. An alternative would be to make it easier to get the needed workers and to verify that they have a right to be here and a path to citizenship or back to their homeland when the work is finished. Farmers cannot get many non-hispanics to pick asparagus or other crops where you bend over the entire work day. So our local economy depends on the ability to get highly educated immigrants and also hispanic immigrants willing to do hard labor. The political climate isn't helpful in meeting these needs. Republicans and Democrats use services of both types of immigrants. Maybe a little honesty on both sides would help.
16
The simplest truth about immigration in the U.S.: Immigration has always made the U.S. greater and stronger. And the reason for that is that the U.S. has been the most successful INTEGRATOR of immigrants of any country. And the secret of that success is that all groups of immigrants have wanted to become Americans. The same is certainly true of Muslim Americans. But we can and will fail to successfully integrate current and future Muslim Americans if we stand in the way of their desire to be Americans, if we literally alienate them.
Likewise, we will fail to realize the contributions that Hispanic Americans and yes, undocumented ("illegal," if you insist) Hispanic immigrants, can make to the strength and success of the U.S. if WE fail to integrate them into the social and economic opportunities and responsibilities of being Americans.
Finally, we cannot ignore that WE have failed, for far too long, to integrate one of our largest (albeit involuntary), oldest (Most American, as nativists would define it.), and most valuable "immigrant" groups, Black Americans, into the social and economic opportunities of the United States, thereby hurting OURSELVES as much as we have hurt them, in the face of Black Americans' incomprehensibly patient and long-suffering ambition to be fully recognized as citizens of the U.S.
We always fail, we always hurt ourselves, when we make life harder for immigrants, which ironically, ALL of our ancestors have been.
Likewise, we will fail to realize the contributions that Hispanic Americans and yes, undocumented ("illegal," if you insist) Hispanic immigrants, can make to the strength and success of the U.S. if WE fail to integrate them into the social and economic opportunities and responsibilities of being Americans.
Finally, we cannot ignore that WE have failed, for far too long, to integrate one of our largest (albeit involuntary), oldest (Most American, as nativists would define it.), and most valuable "immigrant" groups, Black Americans, into the social and economic opportunities of the United States, thereby hurting OURSELVES as much as we have hurt them, in the face of Black Americans' incomprehensibly patient and long-suffering ambition to be fully recognized as citizens of the U.S.
We always fail, we always hurt ourselves, when we make life harder for immigrants, which ironically, ALL of our ancestors have been.
6
Let's not forget that the Khan family lost a son in an unnecessary war that Hillary Clinton voted for.
29
What exactly is the import of this editorial? Am I reading it correctly? What it seems to say is, "people who are supporting Mr. Trump's approach to immigration are wrong on the facts, and most people (59%) say that immigrants (legal? illegal?) "strengthen the country."
Well if that is true, what is the point of the editorial? If all you are saying is that the people who support Trump's approach are actually in the minority, we will find out in November, right?
As usual in the Times, Hillary will "put things right." OK. If the people are behind her, as you assert, she will win the election without your help.
Well if that is true, what is the point of the editorial? If all you are saying is that the people who support Trump's approach are actually in the minority, we will find out in November, right?
As usual in the Times, Hillary will "put things right." OK. If the people are behind her, as you assert, she will win the election without your help.
16
Every person in this hemisphere is an immigrant or a descendant of immigrants. From an evolutionary point of view, we are ALL African-Americans. Point to ponder...
8
The two high points of the Democratic convention came, for me, from two people outside the usual loop. (The speeches by the President and his wife were predictably powerful and eloquent. How I wish Michelle were the Democratic candidate!) Mr. Bloomberg spoke as the well-focused and objective independent that he is, and he exposed the vacuity, insanity, and business incompetence of the Donald very effectively. But the moral high point was Mr. Khan's commentary, which held up, for all to see, the bigotry of the GOP candidate. And every characteristic smearing rebuttal of Mr. Trump (such as his smears of Humayun Khan's mother) only digs him into a deeper hole. Further, every moment that Ryan and McConnell fail to unequivocally repudiate Mr. Trump as unfit reveals the GOP and its leadership to be just as soulless and unfit as its candidate.
10
Mr. Trump shows again that he is unable of compassion. If he took a moment to think how the bereaved parents (especially the mother) of a soldier feel he would likely not have attacked them. There are many good people among the working class who support Mr. Trump believing that he feels their pain. This incident and many others should prove to them the falsity of that proposition.
9
Educated folks like Khizr Khan are neither refugees nor have immigrated to the US on amnesty. They came to the US voluntarily and made it their home, and contributed to the growth and prosperity wholeheartedly. As immigrants from South Asia, we are not refugees: not for economic reasons, not for religious reasons, not for social or cultural reasons. We came to achieve the best of our potential and many of us became national treasures.
14
from the Homeland Security Committee findings:
SYRIAN REFUGEE FLOWS SECURITY RISKS AND COUNTER-TERRORISM CHALLENGES November 2015
“Immediate action must be taken to temporarily suspend the admission of Syrian refugees into the United States until the nation’s leading intelligence and law enforcement agencies can certify the refugee screening process is adequate to detect individuals with terrorist ties.”
https://homeland.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/HomelandSecurityCo...
SYRIAN REFUGEE FLOWS SECURITY RISKS AND COUNTER-TERRORISM CHALLENGES November 2015
“Immediate action must be taken to temporarily suspend the admission of Syrian refugees into the United States until the nation’s leading intelligence and law enforcement agencies can certify the refugee screening process is adequate to detect individuals with terrorist ties.”
https://homeland.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/HomelandSecurityCo...
23
All well and good but in Trump, people see a quick fix to many of the problems created by ineffective immigration law. Perception is reality, whether accurate or not. And in this regard, Trump has the stronger hand.
18
"...take a moment or more to reflect on a few simple truths.
One is that the country is divided over immigration"
Just like the NYTimes to speak of simple truths and then to roll out a lie. The country is not divided over immigration. The country is united in its opposition to the presence of illegal aliens in our country.
The most sensible thing to do is to immediately expel all illegal aliens from our country. It just makes good sense.
One is that the country is divided over immigration"
Just like the NYTimes to speak of simple truths and then to roll out a lie. The country is not divided over immigration. The country is united in its opposition to the presence of illegal aliens in our country.
The most sensible thing to do is to immediately expel all illegal aliens from our country. It just makes good sense.
37
The pathway to citizenship, is valid entry, and five years of crime free living
and a commitment to Americanize (undefined, but we know it when we see it)
=
And some humility, deference, gratitude, loyalty, to the privilege and honor
ANY amnesty, is unacceptable (exceptions, military service, or presidential pardon, maybe)
and it is time to end birth right citizenship, as contextual to the when it was created
We start there
and a commitment to Americanize (undefined, but we know it when we see it)
=
And some humility, deference, gratitude, loyalty, to the privilege and honor
ANY amnesty, is unacceptable (exceptions, military service, or presidential pardon, maybe)
and it is time to end birth right citizenship, as contextual to the when it was created
We start there
23
Immigration is being made into, and kept, an unsolvable issue . Think about it. Why do immigrants come here? Many reasons, of course. But a big one of course, is available money.
The one relatively simple method of controlling illegal immigration missing that is too sensitive by all parties to discuss and act upon - make it a punishable crime for anyone who employs illegal immigrants. That's all.
Poverty stricken people, those people receiving incredibly harsh treatment in there own countries - these are human beings who are doing exactly what you and I would do to protect our families and selves. We should not be penalizing them for what we would do - they are victims. Their employers are making money on that.
We must punish those Americans that are profiting and insuring immigration reform failure.
Around 3,000,000 people received amnesty under Reagan's presidency. Now we're talking about the next 11,000,000 people. Why? Because there was a provision in Reagan's immigration plan that HAD strict provisions for employers. And congress took it out! Surprise! Amnesty now is an action that is taken after the fact and doesn't stop anything.
To slow immigration, put your money where your mouth is, understand, act upon this reality. Make it a crime for the Americans who are paying them. This won't cost taxpayers millions upon millions, as it does now. Just the people responsible.
Start enforcing immigration laws by making employment a crime. The rest can follow.
The one relatively simple method of controlling illegal immigration missing that is too sensitive by all parties to discuss and act upon - make it a punishable crime for anyone who employs illegal immigrants. That's all.
Poverty stricken people, those people receiving incredibly harsh treatment in there own countries - these are human beings who are doing exactly what you and I would do to protect our families and selves. We should not be penalizing them for what we would do - they are victims. Their employers are making money on that.
We must punish those Americans that are profiting and insuring immigration reform failure.
Around 3,000,000 people received amnesty under Reagan's presidency. Now we're talking about the next 11,000,000 people. Why? Because there was a provision in Reagan's immigration plan that HAD strict provisions for employers. And congress took it out! Surprise! Amnesty now is an action that is taken after the fact and doesn't stop anything.
To slow immigration, put your money where your mouth is, understand, act upon this reality. Make it a crime for the Americans who are paying them. This won't cost taxpayers millions upon millions, as it does now. Just the people responsible.
Start enforcing immigration laws by making employment a crime. The rest can follow.
47
America benefits from legal immigration, not illegal entry, and most people understand that.
Under the '86 immigration law, employers are responsible for ensuring that the people they hire are entitled to work in the US but that hasn't worked. All attempts to enforce the law have been defeated by greedy employers who know that they can ignore labor laws and cut wages if they hire illegals.
Under the '86 immigration law, employers are responsible for ensuring that the people they hire are entitled to work in the US but that hasn't worked. All attempts to enforce the law have been defeated by greedy employers who know that they can ignore labor laws and cut wages if they hire illegals.
38
If you insist on open borders madness, if you insist that all the children from South America that have recently come here illegally without their parents are to be taken care of with money that could otherwise be used to allay the suffering of US CITIZENS, then Hillary is your gal. I've seen other polls that say the overwhelming majority of US citizens want illegal immigration stopped in its tracks. Look at any NYT article on illegal immigration, read the comment section which typically runs about 60% AGAINST illegal immigration, and then realize that the NYT readership is not exactly a bunch of rabid conservatives. Take a good guess where the stance of most moderates and independents is on this issue and realize you are being played by the NYT editorial board.
58
Truths are vastly different than facts. The facts are that the Federal Government does not keep crime statistics for crimes committed by illegal immigrants but combines them with legal immigrants; and in some states about 40% of the prison population is made up of illegal immigrants. The truth we can reasonably conclude is that there are illegal immigrants committing crimes.
26
Immigration policy has at least three dimensions: security, cultural and economic. Regarding the latter, the United States has not (yet) experienced an adult conversation about the trade off between (i) inexpensive and often illegal immigrant labor and (ii) inflation.
Take the dairy industry, for example. It is one of the most prolific perpetrators of illegally employing immigrants. The wink-wink-nod-nod between the industry and elected officials is dairy products will continue to be affordable. If prevalent living wages were to be paid, a gallon of milk could rise to some unpalatable number (e.g., $20) that would upset the electorate.
Well.. which is it people? Borders open to illegal immigrants or unaffordable milk? No politician wants to touch this question on a national stage.
Take the dairy industry, for example. It is one of the most prolific perpetrators of illegally employing immigrants. The wink-wink-nod-nod between the industry and elected officials is dairy products will continue to be affordable. If prevalent living wages were to be paid, a gallon of milk could rise to some unpalatable number (e.g., $20) that would upset the electorate.
Well.. which is it people? Borders open to illegal immigrants or unaffordable milk? No politician wants to touch this question on a national stage.
9
On the interview with Donald about his "sacrifices, and hiring thousands and thousands of people." I won't dispute that he is an idiot and a liar, but what now frustrates me is watching interview after interview with him, by highly-placed very smart journalists, in which he bellows and interrupts and lies and praises himself. It must be extremely difficult to interview him if you disagree or want to challenge him. But all who want specifics from him must find a way to stop the flow from him. And it must be done on mainstream television, not just CNN. It must be done on channels that Trump supporters will watch. Do they read the NY Times or the WA Post or watch CNN or MSNBC? No. Who can wrestle the Donald to the ground and make him either say uncle or shut up?? I was glad to see the above cited interview on ABC, I think, but it ended with Donald claiming he has sacrificed for our country. He had the last word. That MUST stop!
6
As usual we have another sob editorial from the NYT. I get sick of the NYT always beating the drum for illegal aliens. When will the NYT accept the fact that these people committed a crime by sneaking across our border. They are criminals. And they will go on to commit other crimes – false documents so they can work, stolen SS numbers, phony ID cards, etc. etc. So after arriving these border jumpers whom the NYT loves so much are criminals.
Now lets look at immigration reform. We need immigration reform but not a reform which hands out citizenship to those illegal aliens Even if we decided to let those who arriver before a certain date stay, they should never receive citizenship. Nor should we admit any other people from Mexico or Central America.
We should have a point system and only accept those immigrants who can make a real contribution to the US. Currently so many illegal aliens who come are takes who will on welfare all their life. We must get of them.
To solve the Refugee problem we should build and sustain at our expense a large refugee camp near the central American border, to which we must send all those Central American who arrive. They are asylum shoppers as they have passed through a safe country.
We need to cut the number of refugees we will accept, end chain migration, end birthright citizenship and adopt a point system like Australian for admission as an immigrant.
Now lets look at immigration reform. We need immigration reform but not a reform which hands out citizenship to those illegal aliens Even if we decided to let those who arriver before a certain date stay, they should never receive citizenship. Nor should we admit any other people from Mexico or Central America.
We should have a point system and only accept those immigrants who can make a real contribution to the US. Currently so many illegal aliens who come are takes who will on welfare all their life. We must get of them.
To solve the Refugee problem we should build and sustain at our expense a large refugee camp near the central American border, to which we must send all those Central American who arrive. They are asylum shoppers as they have passed through a safe country.
We need to cut the number of refugees we will accept, end chain migration, end birthright citizenship and adopt a point system like Australian for admission as an immigrant.
32
Isn't Donald Trump's reaction to Mr. and Mrs. Khan's heart-felt talk at the DNC Convention just his latest stop--as the run-away railroad locomotive just looking for a train-wreck? Trump, ever the shift-changer--tried to shift the focus--citing that Mrs. Khan, as a Muslim, wasn't allowed to speak. Donald, sheer nonsense, as usual! Why would you have a dialogue presentation when, Mr. Khan, as an attorney, is certainly more used to speaking--especially in front of such a large crowd.
But consider their message, Donald? As Mr. Khan suggested, but was too courteous to state, I doubt that you could feel their pain. You see, a heart and a soul would be necessary for that. But, my real oncern about you is otherwise.
Last Wednesday, in Doral, Florida, you shot-from-the-lip at a press conference, more or less encouraging the Russian's to hack into State Department Emails. I'll leave it to the Government to determine whether that constitutes Sedition or Treason. but I am concerned about you having access to classified intelligence information.
Your loose style of blabber--oftentimes demonstrating that you do not even know what you are talking about--and the fact that you will now be given Daily Intelligence Briefings. To me, that's like a farmer giving a child matches, and telling him or her to go play in the hayloft. Donald Trump is an Intelligence Time-bomb, just waiting to go off!
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
But consider their message, Donald? As Mr. Khan suggested, but was too courteous to state, I doubt that you could feel their pain. You see, a heart and a soul would be necessary for that. But, my real oncern about you is otherwise.
Last Wednesday, in Doral, Florida, you shot-from-the-lip at a press conference, more or less encouraging the Russian's to hack into State Department Emails. I'll leave it to the Government to determine whether that constitutes Sedition or Treason. but I am concerned about you having access to classified intelligence information.
Your loose style of blabber--oftentimes demonstrating that you do not even know what you are talking about--and the fact that you will now be given Daily Intelligence Briefings. To me, that's like a farmer giving a child matches, and telling him or her to go play in the hayloft. Donald Trump is an Intelligence Time-bomb, just waiting to go off!
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
4
These "few simple truths" about immigration are facts. But their is another overriding fact. When fear and emotions are sufficiently present rational thought goes out the window.
And the one and only candidate who seems to get that, to understand that, and listen to this fear based threatened group (whether frankly or falsely)is DT.
And even though he just by happenstance, I believe, came upon these fear-based issues, he at the same time, surprising even himself, also got the rewards he seeks (even more than the presidency) including love and attention which he requires like oxygen. He's also a quick read, so he keeps going back to the exact same issues and resolutions over and over again. And thus keeps getting the same positive pay back that keeps him going.
And his resolutions are always simple, not complex like in reality they are. They are black and white, easily understood, Just what the doctor ordered. And mainly include walls, wars, weapons.
And, in my view, that's the depth and breath of a Donald Trump. And that's the extent of what's required by those who finally feel understood and are as a result loyal and bonded to this man-child despite his obnoxious rhetoric and behavior and serious lack of qualifications or government experience. And that's terrifying.
And the one and only candidate who seems to get that, to understand that, and listen to this fear based threatened group (whether frankly or falsely)is DT.
And even though he just by happenstance, I believe, came upon these fear-based issues, he at the same time, surprising even himself, also got the rewards he seeks (even more than the presidency) including love and attention which he requires like oxygen. He's also a quick read, so he keeps going back to the exact same issues and resolutions over and over again. And thus keeps getting the same positive pay back that keeps him going.
And his resolutions are always simple, not complex like in reality they are. They are black and white, easily understood, Just what the doctor ordered. And mainly include walls, wars, weapons.
And, in my view, that's the depth and breath of a Donald Trump. And that's the extent of what's required by those who finally feel understood and are as a result loyal and bonded to this man-child despite his obnoxious rhetoric and behavior and serious lack of qualifications or government experience. And that's terrifying.
1
The reality is that the folks who really want to keep illegal immigration flowing are the very job creators the republican party seems to worship. The illegal workers are very useful to the 1%, helping keep wages suppressed and job opportunities limited allows those "job creators" to keep more money in their own pockets.
Obama has had to bend over backward attempting to assure the rabid right and the tea partistas that he is indeed a law abiding President. Some of his efforts, as a result, were probably more heavy handed than he would have personally liked. But there it is; if you are a black man or a woman you will have to work twice as hard as the white dude just to appear to be half as good.
If Obama were a white guy named Smith there would be talk, already, of another face on Rushmore.
Obama has had to bend over backward attempting to assure the rabid right and the tea partistas that he is indeed a law abiding President. Some of his efforts, as a result, were probably more heavy handed than he would have personally liked. But there it is; if you are a black man or a woman you will have to work twice as hard as the white dude just to appear to be half as good.
If Obama were a white guy named Smith there would be talk, already, of another face on Rushmore.
5
Where was the empathy for the people at the RNC who spoke about their children murdered by illegal immigrants?
24
I grew up on a small farm in Southeastern Idaho. The principal cash crop for my father was sugar beets, which in those days was a very labor-intensive crop. Every summer my father struggled to find people to thin and weed sugar beets. He would try local kids who would last a couple of days and then quit. There were Navajo Indians who would come, but in insufficient numbers and consistency. Then the Mexicans came to town. They were reliable and hard-working. Later in life I moved to another part of Idaho and as a lawyer worked with immigration issues and mostly Mexican clients. The farms in my area are much larger, but struggle with the same problem: finding adequate workers. All of the dairy, potato, and sugar beet farmers will tell you the same thing: they cannot find legal workers who are willing to stick with the jobs, no matter how well they are paid. Those Mexican workers who come undocumented have been here for years. They have established businesses bringing a vibrancy to the community which a couple of decades ago was moribund. Their kids are in school and are doing well. Many are college-educated, have served in the military, and are contributing to society. I am sick of people like Trump and his followers who disparage an entire people without walking a minute in their shoes. To Trump in his followers I'll get you a hoe and I'll find you some sugar beets or some cows to milk or some potatoes to sort and let's see who can outwork the Mexicans.
17
What does the US Constitution have to do with the issue of immigration, aside from a publicity stunt?
It applies only to people within our borders, not everyone in the entire world, which is why millions of illegal aliens sneak over our borders and use our Bill Of Rights to sue us to their economic advantage.
Do Liberals know this?
It applies only to people within our borders, not everyone in the entire world, which is why millions of illegal aliens sneak over our borders and use our Bill Of Rights to sue us to their economic advantage.
Do Liberals know this?
26
Illegal immigration was emboldened by Reagan, a republican, not by democrats. What does Trump know about immigrants, he doesn't even know what America is all about---only thing he knows is his own reflection in the mirror ----- but utterly unable to reflect on himself. NYT should write about legal and illegal immigration without any bias and back up with statistics ---- even then I guess Trump would not get it as he doesn't read
3
only solution to border with mexico - dissolve the border, legalize immigrants, make it like an EU for Mex/US.
if not now, when?
if not now, when?
5
Not going to hold my breath waiting for Mitch McConnell or Paul Ryan weighing on Trumps insensitive remarks. Trump discounted those two guys and anything they might say as stupid and not winners like him long ago. I bet if he walked through section 60 at Arlington his comments would be something on the order of “the only reason these guys are dead is because they aren’t winners.” As a vet I don’t want Trump anywhere near nuclear codes.
7
The reason Trump is relevant at all is because of his opposition to the open borders agenda of the Chamber of Commerce. Wages and working conditions have been in decline in this country since the 1986 amnesty passed by Republican Ronald Reagan. We as a country have a right to know who is entering and who is staying, kind of how all the other countries on the planet work.
20
Of course immigration is good. But, this article uses legal and illegal immigration as synonyms. They are not. We need reform. Until then, illegal immigration remains illegal.
Obama is pretty aggressive with deportations. This is sad but is a reasonable course.
Obama is pretty aggressive with deportations. This is sad but is a reasonable course.
19
Trump's immigration views may be wrong, but that does not mean yours are correct. And please stop selling Mrs. Clinton as if she were the divine savior.
Immigration numbers can be found on the federal government's webpages. It does not take a genius to see more people are coming in illegally than is tolerable, and only about a third of them are being deported each year.
Government prison data confirms that there are tens of thousands of felons in federal prisons who who are not US citizens, more among them from Mexico. If the NYT needs the webpage links to confirm, that can be arranged.
The fact is your reporting makes it sound like the United States is not generous to immigrants, even though we LEGALLY admit about a million each year. That doesn't address the hundreds of thousands who come illegally and escape deportation.
Legalize them all? We tried that with Simpson-Rodino/Mazzoli. It proved not to be the answer.
Inviting more illegals with lax policies and weak enforcement doesn't help.
The idea that politicians care more about legalizing illegal entrants than creating real (not government subsidized) jobs for citizens from Fresno to Flint, from Bassett to Baton Rouge, is what is attracting people to anyone but Clinton. You don't seem to get it. Maybe you should travel outside of your bubble a bit.
Immigration numbers can be found on the federal government's webpages. It does not take a genius to see more people are coming in illegally than is tolerable, and only about a third of them are being deported each year.
Government prison data confirms that there are tens of thousands of felons in federal prisons who who are not US citizens, more among them from Mexico. If the NYT needs the webpage links to confirm, that can be arranged.
The fact is your reporting makes it sound like the United States is not generous to immigrants, even though we LEGALLY admit about a million each year. That doesn't address the hundreds of thousands who come illegally and escape deportation.
Legalize them all? We tried that with Simpson-Rodino/Mazzoli. It proved not to be the answer.
Inviting more illegals with lax policies and weak enforcement doesn't help.
The idea that politicians care more about legalizing illegal entrants than creating real (not government subsidized) jobs for citizens from Fresno to Flint, from Bassett to Baton Rouge, is what is attracting people to anyone but Clinton. You don't seem to get it. Maybe you should travel outside of your bubble a bit.
41
We welcome to America Muslims like Mr. Khan and his son, but not the one who wants to kill us in the name of their religion and god. It is not a ban for religious reasons, but a ban for security reasons. Based on FBI investigations, there are thousands of Muslims with bad intentions in America. The temporary ban proposed by Trump is to make sure that we have proper procedures in place to vet people who want to come to this country, especially from countries where ISIS and terrorist are concentrated. If somebody says that we should let all the Muslims come to this country without any checking just because they belong to a religion, that is ludicrous. Majority of American people understand that, notwithstanding partisan rhetoric and emotional outbursts.
36
The fact remains that we are the wealthiest nation in the world by a wide margin, with a quarter of the world's wealth and a GDP equivalent to that of the European Union (with Britain). When "blue collar billion-heirs" get the rest of us to point fingers at minority boogeymen, then distract us from the real problem of income inequality in a "trickle-up" economy. This is basic "divide and conquer" demagoguery, the essence of Trump, and it stinks. Not good!
7
A sham! Thought I was going to read something factual and accurate about immigration for a change.
Instead I got clobbered with more political propaganda! When does the NYT begin to assert some discipline on its writers? Do you think we readers are stupid, stupid, stupid?
There's nothing simple about the immigration issues. And for certain, there is absolutely NOTHING at all true in this article. Shame on you!
Instead I got clobbered with more political propaganda! When does the NYT begin to assert some discipline on its writers? Do you think we readers are stupid, stupid, stupid?
There's nothing simple about the immigration issues. And for certain, there is absolutely NOTHING at all true in this article. Shame on you!
37
Trump , Rubio and " the patriots " want to block people coming here from " terrorist countries " . If other countries block people coming into their countries from " terrorist countries " I might NOT be able to travel to many places outside of the u s a !
5
When I see Hillary Clinton promising to increase immigration and the very people who support her are black and brown people, many quite poor, I find it astonishing.
Hillary promised everything to everyone; she promises to increase immigration at a time when black and brown and poor white people in this country are struggling and just hope for a better life for their children.
We need jobs, healthcare, schools, infrastructure not more HB1 visas and illegal immigration.
I say let some people who are here illegally stay but they should not be rewarded with citizenship.
Many black people have been here for over 400 years and we keep getting pushed aside for ever increasing immigration.
Additionally, Congress needs to issue a Visa type card to everyone who enters the country for the purpose of tracking anyone who defaults on their commitment to leave the country when their visa is expired, and also clamp down on employers who employ anyone in the country illegally.
When I was a young mom, any couple that had more than the "supposed 2.3" kids was admonished for adversely contributing to population growth.
We can not continue to support ever increasing population explosion from other countries.
Hillary promised everything to everyone; she promises to increase immigration at a time when black and brown and poor white people in this country are struggling and just hope for a better life for their children.
We need jobs, healthcare, schools, infrastructure not more HB1 visas and illegal immigration.
I say let some people who are here illegally stay but they should not be rewarded with citizenship.
Many black people have been here for over 400 years and we keep getting pushed aside for ever increasing immigration.
Additionally, Congress needs to issue a Visa type card to everyone who enters the country for the purpose of tracking anyone who defaults on their commitment to leave the country when their visa is expired, and also clamp down on employers who employ anyone in the country illegally.
When I was a young mom, any couple that had more than the "supposed 2.3" kids was admonished for adversely contributing to population growth.
We can not continue to support ever increasing population explosion from other countries.
35
Does the Editorial Board read the stuff it prints?
"...the kind of tough guy response - including massive deportation...that Mr. Trump offers as his solution."
"She has promised to be do better than President Obama...who will leave office...setting a record for aggressive deportations and persisting in the misguided detention of...refugee mothers and children."
"...this is a complex issue...its solution...requires CLEAR THINKING [emphasis added].
If this editorial is an example of what the Board considers as clear thinking, then it should excuse itself from debate because it, like its arch nemesis, is unqualified for the task.
"...the kind of tough guy response - including massive deportation...that Mr. Trump offers as his solution."
"She has promised to be do better than President Obama...who will leave office...setting a record for aggressive deportations and persisting in the misguided detention of...refugee mothers and children."
"...this is a complex issue...its solution...requires CLEAR THINKING [emphasis added].
If this editorial is an example of what the Board considers as clear thinking, then it should excuse itself from debate because it, like its arch nemesis, is unqualified for the task.
29
I read this article as a rebuke of Trump's extreme xenophobic (and ultimately isolationist) approach, not a liberal brainwashing experiment to sugarcoat.
3
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Agree that most people do not want to see someone with three kids picked up and deported while his children stand there crying. But what does "path to citizenship" mean? Or "greater border security". The definition and enforcement is the part that worries me because nobody is enforcing the law right now.
18
Let’s make sure we understand immigration is all about “racism;” it comes with different faces and has many colors. Donald Trump, like his father is a racist, it’s on his DNA.
At the very beginning of his campaign, he spoke about building a “wall” at the border. It attracted the “white supremacists” which sense of entitlement make them belief those people that don’t fit their “strict pattern” are undeserving off this country. The wall was just a distraction to get the votes; there is evidence it would interfere with the flowing of water from the Rio Grande in Mexico that gives water to “El Paso, home of the University of Texas. The same goes with Colorado Rivers that provides incoming water to 8 states and for the irrigation of our crops.
During his acceptance speech, Mr. Trump called referred to “illegal immigrants” as criminals and rapists hidden in the shadows ready to attack the American people. Criminals, rapists and serial killers are “pathological conditions;’ not ethnicity.”
Mr. Trump, a “fast talker” isn’t aware of the farm industry. For years, the farm industry has brought over foreign-born and cross the border to work in our fields. These workers take care of our crops working many hours under the sun under exploitative conditions. They always been disenfranchised and in general never had the right to vote; jobs most Americans wouldn’t there to do. These “illegal immigrants” are the key to the U.S. food industry.
At the very beginning of his campaign, he spoke about building a “wall” at the border. It attracted the “white supremacists” which sense of entitlement make them belief those people that don’t fit their “strict pattern” are undeserving off this country. The wall was just a distraction to get the votes; there is evidence it would interfere with the flowing of water from the Rio Grande in Mexico that gives water to “El Paso, home of the University of Texas. The same goes with Colorado Rivers that provides incoming water to 8 states and for the irrigation of our crops.
During his acceptance speech, Mr. Trump called referred to “illegal immigrants” as criminals and rapists hidden in the shadows ready to attack the American people. Criminals, rapists and serial killers are “pathological conditions;’ not ethnicity.”
Mr. Trump, a “fast talker” isn’t aware of the farm industry. For years, the farm industry has brought over foreign-born and cross the border to work in our fields. These workers take care of our crops working many hours under the sun under exploitative conditions. They always been disenfranchised and in general never had the right to vote; jobs most Americans wouldn’t there to do. These “illegal immigrants” are the key to the U.S. food industry.
7
The biggest mistake of the Democratic party was to include the Muslim couple just to attack Trump. Their presence reminded liberals of the repression and censorship of a culture that still represses women, gays, etc. This reminder and blatant support in a convention might lead some to vote for Trump. It is not about terrorism. And the issue is not about stopping immigration itself. Liberals as well want controlled immigration. We have too much unemployment and underemployment. To highlight Muslims and Hispanics in the convention was not a very efficient strategy in the fight against Trump.
46
Another truth is that since 2008 more Mexican born migrants are leaving to return to Mexico than are coming into the US. In fact, Mexican-born population has declined by over 1 million persons, falling from its peak of 12.8 million in 2007 to 11.7 million in 2014.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-...
So Trump's wall is just a part of the politics of fear, a way to get people to the polls. Building a wall between the US and Mexico, is not only morally wrong, it sends are terrible message to Mexico, our third largest trading partner, and it's about the most wasteful use of tax dollars ever proposed by a major party candidate.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-...
So Trump's wall is just a part of the politics of fear, a way to get people to the polls. Building a wall between the US and Mexico, is not only morally wrong, it sends are terrible message to Mexico, our third largest trading partner, and it's about the most wasteful use of tax dollars ever proposed by a major party candidate.
7
The editorial board of the New York Times is once again taking sides and finding circuitous ways to malign and fault Trump unfairly by confusing and misinterpreting what Trump has said all along. As I understand, Trump has voiced strong and consistent opposition to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and has called for deportation of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS currently residing in the USA with those with criminal record deported first back to the country of origin, with no return to the USA. From my point of view there has to be an immigration reform to assess the state of other immigrants without any criminal record. There could be several pathways to immigration that could be considered to rehabilitate the illegals but the current laws of deportation of illegals should be enforced until such time there is a clarity on reform if there ever will be. Now about the wall, there is no confusion and whether or not it is the right structure to add to the American landscape, if Trump becomes the president and wants to build his silly but secure great Trump wall without the US tax payer monies but find other creative ways it would not bother me. Of course don't expect Mexico to shell out a penny. As far as the father of the US soldier of Pakistani origin mentioned in this article who spoke at the Democratic Convention in Philadelphia he was fueling the partisan democratic party propaganda to promote Hillary and malign and demonize Trump for his careless suggestion banning all Muslims to stem terrorism.
17
What seems to be lost here are the Khan's anger at Donald Trump for their son's death. They should properly be angry at George W. Bush for starting the war and Hillary Clinton for voting for it.
25
What we need is Immigration based on "The Rule of Law".
My proposal:
1. Every 10 years, after the census, Congress sets a yearly quota that lasts for 10 years.
2. Everyone anyplace on the earth puts their name in a hat (metaphorically) and we draw them out until the quota for that year is met. They can bring three blood relatives with them.
3. Anyone who come to the USA who was not drawn out of the hat will be shipped home in 10 days. A hearing to prove if you are in fact an American Citizen is the only hearing that you get.
4. Anyone in the USA as of the date of this change has the following path to citizenship. You will pay 20% of your earnings as a fine for 5 years. You will work two weekends a month doing community service for 5 years. You will pass by the end of the 5 years a test of English in speaking, reading, and writing, equal to the 12 grade. If you do not do these things, you get deported.
5. No work visa's for an individual for more then 6 months within a 5 year period.
Simple, knowable, transparent, fair, and subject to the Rule of Law. What America is supposed to be all about.
My proposal:
1. Every 10 years, after the census, Congress sets a yearly quota that lasts for 10 years.
2. Everyone anyplace on the earth puts their name in a hat (metaphorically) and we draw them out until the quota for that year is met. They can bring three blood relatives with them.
3. Anyone who come to the USA who was not drawn out of the hat will be shipped home in 10 days. A hearing to prove if you are in fact an American Citizen is the only hearing that you get.
4. Anyone in the USA as of the date of this change has the following path to citizenship. You will pay 20% of your earnings as a fine for 5 years. You will work two weekends a month doing community service for 5 years. You will pass by the end of the 5 years a test of English in speaking, reading, and writing, equal to the 12 grade. If you do not do these things, you get deported.
5. No work visa's for an individual for more then 6 months within a 5 year period.
Simple, knowable, transparent, fair, and subject to the Rule of Law. What America is supposed to be all about.
11
The nyts is the lefts Fox News. Conveniently overlooking anything that doesn't fit its preconceived notions. Here are some "facts". The u.s. and Canada are the only western countries that still have birthrite citizenship. Why is that? Because the rest of the world knows this is an irresistible draw for illegals and birth tourism. Get here, have a citizen kid and you're home free. Why isn't this addressed in "comprehensive immigration reform"?
The nyts claims to believe in global warming. What part of adding 100s of millions of people to our population helps that problem?? How does mass immigration help: school crowding, unemployment, income inequality, loss of open space, decreasing clean water supplies, transportation crowding, resource use, endangered species, dependence on foreign oil etc etc??
The truth is, it doesn't. That's why the usual answer to questions like how many people can this country sustainably support, what do we want the u.s. to look like in 100 years, etc are met with cries of "xenophobic racist" rather than facts. The truth is, we are changing this country in the most fundamental, permanent way without the slightest fact based discussion or study. Every study the government has done (look at the Jordan study) has said the u.s. has too many people when it was done. When we hit 500 million by the end of this century, due almost entirely to immigrants and their offspring, I doubt the people living in that U.S. will thank us.
The nyts claims to believe in global warming. What part of adding 100s of millions of people to our population helps that problem?? How does mass immigration help: school crowding, unemployment, income inequality, loss of open space, decreasing clean water supplies, transportation crowding, resource use, endangered species, dependence on foreign oil etc etc??
The truth is, it doesn't. That's why the usual answer to questions like how many people can this country sustainably support, what do we want the u.s. to look like in 100 years, etc are met with cries of "xenophobic racist" rather than facts. The truth is, we are changing this country in the most fundamental, permanent way without the slightest fact based discussion or study. Every study the government has done (look at the Jordan study) has said the u.s. has too many people when it was done. When we hit 500 million by the end of this century, due almost entirely to immigrants and their offspring, I doubt the people living in that U.S. will thank us.
28
The NY Times and Democrats still do not get it. Republicans, particularly those in the construction industry, restaurants, agriculture and other industries, absolutely want immigrants, and lots of them. What they do not want is for immigrants to be granted legal status. Illegal immigrants work for much less and never complain, they don't even know what overtime is, never get health insurance and never will, and they, because they are outside legal protection, do not qualify for any labor protection like worker compensation for injuries. Illegal immigrants are cheap labor and that will vanish with a stroke of a pen if they are granted legal status. Republicans are playing a double game, and that is what is angering the working class base. We would have very few illegal immigrants indeed if every person who receives a paycheck in the United States of America, either as a full time employee or a contractor (this is the favorite tactic: employers are not required to verify the legal status of contract employees), had to be verified as eligible to work here. So Republicans nominate the most cynical, profit-driven real estate developer, a man who says he will build a wall, as their nominee. The double game continues. If Trump got elected, I doubt a single person would be deported. Deportation of millions of cheap workers is not REALLY what the employer class of the Republican party wants. They want cheap labor. Working class Republicans are being played, again.
18
Stopping illegal immigration from Mexico, and also drugs, is simple.
Stop hiring them.
And stop buying the drugs.
And many of those hiring them are voting Republican - farmers, construction, meat packing, hotels.
You can bet that there are some undocumented workers in Trump hotels.
Stop hiring them.
And stop buying the drugs.
And many of those hiring them are voting Republican - farmers, construction, meat packing, hotels.
You can bet that there are some undocumented workers in Trump hotels.
6
"more than a century of research shows that immigrants are less prone to crime than native-born Americans."
This statement is technically correct, but does not actually get at the truth. Immigrants are more likely to commit crime than every demographic group except blacks. If blacks were taken out of the equation, it would be clear that immigrants, especially from poor countries like those below our southern border, are much more likely to commit crime than almost every American.
Is this really the standard we should judge immigrants by? If it's enough that immigrants commit less crime than Chicago gang-bangers, then I fear that our standards are too low. If immigrant crime rates were below the rates of Whites and Asians, this would be a statistic to tout. As for the statistic in this article, I'm not impressed.
This statement is technically correct, but does not actually get at the truth. Immigrants are more likely to commit crime than every demographic group except blacks. If blacks were taken out of the equation, it would be clear that immigrants, especially from poor countries like those below our southern border, are much more likely to commit crime than almost every American.
Is this really the standard we should judge immigrants by? If it's enough that immigrants commit less crime than Chicago gang-bangers, then I fear that our standards are too low. If immigrant crime rates were below the rates of Whites and Asians, this would be a statistic to tout. As for the statistic in this article, I'm not impressed.
35
Not any longer.
Any immigrant that entered illegally and/or over stayed his/her visa shouldn't be allowed a legal path to citizenship, not even to permanent residency. We live in a state of law
38
The elephant in the room is that many jobs taken by immigrants are not attractive or acceptable to Americans, and many Europeans as well (e.g. agriculture, restaurants, landscaping, etc.) As Anthony Bordain pointed out in his book "Kitchen Confidential", the reason restaurants hire immigrants is because of their low absenteeism and good work ethic. This is not confined to the US. When Germans complained that immigrants were taking their jobs, for instance in agriculture, farmers hired Germans to work in the fields. Within one week most called in sick, while the harvest was in danger of rotting in the fields. Clearly, corporations have hired cheaper labor in tech fields and construction, for instance, or outsourced the labor to cut cost, but this is not the only side of the story. Higher wages would obviously also help, and the US is far behind the civilized world in this aspect, but I am not sure at what salary Americans would be lining up to pick artichokes or clean toilets.
9
There are 7 billion people in the world, and at least 1 billion of them, mostly from the poorest countries, would like to move to the US. If they did so, it would quadruple the US population. So the US must choose its immigrants carefully. And choosing them because they managed to produce a US-born child while in the US illegally is far from the best way to pick them. The US could harvest the intellectual elite of the third world, not its fruit-pickers and occasionally, criminals, if it wanted to. But the intellectual elite would only vote 60% for Democrats, rather than 80%, and so we see no effort to bring them in instead.
21
So gut-wrenching were Mr. Khan’s words that it seemed to this viewer as if The Lord of all men, women and faiths had intervened at that critical, historic moment solely to insure that Mr. Khan, his grieving wife by his side, could be heard.
Heard for the sake of Reason and for the sake of all immigrants, all Americans, leaving us no choice but to confront dignity in suffering and remind us of the integrity of belief and its profound importance in all lives, regardless of race, faith, place of birth.
I sat stunned at their conviction, humbled by their pride in being Americans and in America, finding myself overwhelmed by the burden they bore, standing before 300 million Americans so as not to allow the purity, the suffering of their souls and ours, whether white, black, Muslim, Christian, mothers, fathers, sons or daughters, so many now in harm’s way, insuring none would be forgotten, their multitudes of faith left untrammeled in the mud of another party’s politics.
Today, I know that the sacrifice of their son, Humayun Khan, Captain, United States Army, American. I know it in my own heart. It will never be forgotten, and in that memory, neither will the sacrifices of other young men, young women, all of them children of immigrants or descendants of immigrants, all of them — ALL of them —
Americans.
Heard for the sake of Reason and for the sake of all immigrants, all Americans, leaving us no choice but to confront dignity in suffering and remind us of the integrity of belief and its profound importance in all lives, regardless of race, faith, place of birth.
I sat stunned at their conviction, humbled by their pride in being Americans and in America, finding myself overwhelmed by the burden they bore, standing before 300 million Americans so as not to allow the purity, the suffering of their souls and ours, whether white, black, Muslim, Christian, mothers, fathers, sons or daughters, so many now in harm’s way, insuring none would be forgotten, their multitudes of faith left untrammeled in the mud of another party’s politics.
Today, I know that the sacrifice of their son, Humayun Khan, Captain, United States Army, American. I know it in my own heart. It will never be forgotten, and in that memory, neither will the sacrifices of other young men, young women, all of them children of immigrants or descendants of immigrants, all of them — ALL of them —
Americans.
7
No.
Hillary Clinton think “good fences make good neighbors.” She vote for the failed comprehensive immigration bill, which directed Homeland Security to implement a “Southern Border Fencing Strategy” by adding 700 miles of fencing to the existing Border Fence. Hillary said “It is obvious there is no more defining issue in our nation today than stopping illegal immigration. The most basic obligation of any government is to secure the nation's borders. One issue in which there appears to be a consensus between the Senate and the House is on the issue of building a secure fence.” During her campaign for the presidential nomination, Hillary said "I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in. And I do think you have to control your borders." But a fence isn’t going to stop illegal immigration. We need congressional legislation that empowers states, cities and counties to arrest and prosecute migrants for being unlawfully present within their jurisdiction.
17
If it takes "a careful examination of the facts" to undermine Trump's rhetoric, the case is already lost. We must win over people who care not about facts but about gut feelings. If Democrats cannot find a language to reach these people, they'd better make sure they don't need them to win in November.
6
Editorials like this are the reason we have Trump. Keep sticking your heads in the sand. You just don't get it.
35
The simple truth about immigration: with 320 million people, the United States does not need any more.
Life was fine when we had 200 million. More people cause more congestion, pollution, and use of natural resources. I advocate a ban on ALL immigration.
Such a total ban would also reduce the fear of an attack by terrorists.
Life was fine when we had 200 million. More people cause more congestion, pollution, and use of natural resources. I advocate a ban on ALL immigration.
Such a total ban would also reduce the fear of an attack by terrorists.
21
Donald Trump seems caught up in a psycho-drama where he plays a cartoon villain in Gotham doing the most dastardly and despicable things to get control of the world. He may not understand the job he's applying for, but certainly, he's not the right person for it. He's not right.
Right, EXCEPT: "modernized laws to better match workers and jobs" is a fancy way of describing expansion of the H1-b Program that most "common sense" proposals (including Obama's and Clinton's ) include. The Times occasionally carries articles about this Program. It is the means by which companies import low-wage skilled workers to replace Americans in jobs. The Times and others should set these stories beside "common sense" proposals and call for an elimination of H1-b in anything like its present form.
17
What tripe.
What people object to is illegal immigration.
Last time I checked American citizens who don't follow the law are punished.
Illegals in the New York Times mind are somehow exempt.
Why.
If I try and cross Mexico's border without papers they will lock me up.
If I drive without license and insurance I'm going to jail. And if I steal a Social Security number for me it's a felony for them the Feds do nothing.
That's what we object to. As far as legalization goes Reagan did that when there were 3 million illegals, now we have 11 million.
\Your approach only guarantees more.
What people object to is illegal immigration.
Last time I checked American citizens who don't follow the law are punished.
Illegals in the New York Times mind are somehow exempt.
Why.
If I try and cross Mexico's border without papers they will lock me up.
If I drive without license and insurance I'm going to jail. And if I steal a Social Security number for me it's a felony for them the Feds do nothing.
That's what we object to. As far as legalization goes Reagan did that when there were 3 million illegals, now we have 11 million.
\Your approach only guarantees more.
31
What politicians on both sides of the aisle have failed to do, effectively dressing down Donald Trump, was left to Mr. Khan, who spoke for himself and his wife, who remained silent because she was too grief-stricken and like most of us not accustomed to speaking in public, about such a painful experience as the loss of her son, and not because she was subservient, as Trump implied.
Trump's fragile ego cannot take honest criticism to heart, and respond in kind, with some semblance of humbleness and respect. It is not in Trump's nature. He will stoop so low as to attack parents who loss their son in service to this country, while Trump obtained five military deferments when he was draft age, like that other infamous chicken hawk, Dick Cheney.
Since Trump says he doesn't read, he watches "programs" to gather his information, we can assume he has not read the Constitution. Has Trump said anything descriptive about the Constitution except that " it is a tremendous document"? Has Trump ever visited the Arlington National Cemetery on his many trips to Washington DC when working on his numerous projects he can't stop gloating about?
Has Trump sacrificed anything? It is a direct and profound question Mr. Kahn put to Trump. We saw how the thin-skinned, small-fingered vulgarian responded. He took as another personal attack. I put this question to all Trump: Are you still proud of this human debris?
DD
Manhattan
Trump's fragile ego cannot take honest criticism to heart, and respond in kind, with some semblance of humbleness and respect. It is not in Trump's nature. He will stoop so low as to attack parents who loss their son in service to this country, while Trump obtained five military deferments when he was draft age, like that other infamous chicken hawk, Dick Cheney.
Since Trump says he doesn't read, he watches "programs" to gather his information, we can assume he has not read the Constitution. Has Trump said anything descriptive about the Constitution except that " it is a tremendous document"? Has Trump ever visited the Arlington National Cemetery on his many trips to Washington DC when working on his numerous projects he can't stop gloating about?
Has Trump sacrificed anything? It is a direct and profound question Mr. Kahn put to Trump. We saw how the thin-skinned, small-fingered vulgarian responded. He took as another personal attack. I put this question to all Trump: Are you still proud of this human debris?
DD
Manhattan
13
The U.S. goes around the world destabilizing areas such as Latin America (the "war" on drugs) and the middle east (the war for oil). When the regular folks that live there flee, we don't want them. IT'S THE FAULT OF THE U.S.
1
One of the very few—if not only—things I agreed with George W. Bush on was his push for comprehensive immigration reform. Now that the Republicans have turned their collective back on even that, there is absolutely nothing left to support them on.
3
To the editor:
You may want to mention that the President placed an executive order halting deportations. This order was rejected by the courts. His heart is obviously with immigrants, but he knows that he needs to follow the law. He has tried to alter the law and to halt the administration of the law. The law needs to be changed.
Republicans in congress are the problem.
You may want to mention that the President placed an executive order halting deportations. This order was rejected by the courts. His heart is obviously with immigrants, but he knows that he needs to follow the law. He has tried to alter the law and to halt the administration of the law. The law needs to be changed.
Republicans in congress are the problem.
1
It's politics. Facts don't matter.
If objective truth had any bearing on elections, Mr. Trump would not be winning elections. So sad for America.
If objective truth had any bearing on elections, Mr. Trump would not be winning elections. So sad for America.
3
I'm a left leaning independent. I have a real problem with the solutions from both sides. There is no way we can deport 11 million undocumented aliens. I also don't believe they should be rewarded for breaking the law, by making them citizens. We need to increase the penalties on all businesses and make them substantial. We also need to create a new type of card (similar to a green card) that will allow those 11 million undocumented aliens the ability to stay in this country and work legally, own property and businesses, do everything all citizens can do except vote. They would not be made citizens. We could call it a purple card. If they want to be citizens, then they can leave the country and enter legally.
7
The Khans should contemplate what would have happened if a ban on travel and immigration from Muslims countries noted for exporting terrorists had been put into effect prior to 2001. The three thousand Americans who died on September 11, 20012, would still be alive, including Muslim Americans who died when the Twin Towers collapsed. The costly War on Terrorism with its ghastly casualties would have been averted. Khan’s family would still be Americans, but her son would not have died a hero’s death in Iran.
The best time to have imposed a ban on travel and immigration would have been prior to the 9-11 terror attacks. The second best time to impose such a ban is now. U.S. Code § 1182 (Inadmissible Aliens) states: “Whenever the president finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.” If the deaths of thousands of Americans in terror attack doesn’t justify a suspension of travel and immigration from countries that export terrorists, what would?
The best time to have imposed a ban on travel and immigration would have been prior to the 9-11 terror attacks. The second best time to impose such a ban is now. U.S. Code § 1182 (Inadmissible Aliens) states: “Whenever the president finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.” If the deaths of thousands of Americans in terror attack doesn’t justify a suspension of travel and immigration from countries that export terrorists, what would?
21
The majority of undocumented immigrants in the US entered legally and overstayed their visas. How does a wall help with that?
Non-human animals' habitat spans the border region. They need to cross regularly. A wall would disrupt them. Why do some people elevate human animals' needs so highly over non-human animal needs? Trump sells murdered non-human animal corpses for humans to have a brief moment of taste entertainment ("Trumps steaks"). That reveals his moral character. He has no soul.
Non-human animals' habitat spans the border region. They need to cross regularly. A wall would disrupt them. Why do some people elevate human animals' needs so highly over non-human animal needs? Trump sells murdered non-human animal corpses for humans to have a brief moment of taste entertainment ("Trumps steaks"). That reveals his moral character. He has no soul.
6
20 year moratorium on h1b visa
in that time, force companies to fund training/education as needed for local residents
after that time, there will be no need for h1b workers bc you will have your own trained skilled labor pool
in that time, force companies to fund training/education as needed for local residents
after that time, there will be no need for h1b workers bc you will have your own trained skilled labor pool
14
Here's another little truth about "immigration." In 2011, Barack Obama halted the Iraq Refugee Program for six months after the FBI discovered that a couple of dozen terrorists had entered the US through the program. The FBI matched "refugee" finger prints to prints lifted off IEDs and other explosives materials. So Obama did the right thing then and stopped it, temporarily. He did it, not to prevent Christians or Jews or Yazidis or Hindus or atheists from entering the country. It was effectively a moratorium on Muslims from Iraq.
Now, after all the terrorist activity here and in Europe, Donald Trump makes what amounts to the same suggestion, and it is characterized by our president, in interview after interview, as un-American and "not who we are." This is the kind of duplicity we expect from him now, and not challenging him on his hypocrisy is what we expect from the press.
Now, after all the terrorist activity here and in Europe, Donald Trump makes what amounts to the same suggestion, and it is characterized by our president, in interview after interview, as un-American and "not who we are." This is the kind of duplicity we expect from him now, and not challenging him on his hypocrisy is what we expect from the press.
25
Yes, immigrants “strengthen the country”, when they’re MD’s from India or engineers from Pakistan. But NOT when they’re sneaking across the boarder. Skilled legal, good; unskilled illegal, bad.
Slick Willie “deported” millions. Both he and HRC spoke of the need to aggressively enforce immigration laws. Now, HRC proposes to take “executive action” (read: “ignore the law”) to “protect” immigrants. At the same time, she and the left whine about wage stagnation (inevitable when there’s a labor glut caused by immigrants). Citizen labor force participation is low; immigrants fill too many jobs that American citizens can do, and should be doing.
We should look to Canada or Australia for immigration advice. Admit few immigrants, and, then, only those with skills. Send all illegals home immediately.
We should have learned this lesson in 1986. RWR said, in effect, “this much, and no more”. But the Dems were never serious. They LIKE the idea of lots of poor people who will rely upon taxpayer subsidies for a generation or so; people living at the expense of taxpayers are reliable Democrats.
This really isn’t difficult: if you’re here illegally, go home. Now. If you won’t, we will send you home. If you come here illegally, we will catch you and send you (and your kids) home.
Even if you’d make a great American, if all you have to offer is a strong back, we don’t need you. Work at making your own country a place to which people wish to move, rather than one they try to escape.
Slick Willie “deported” millions. Both he and HRC spoke of the need to aggressively enforce immigration laws. Now, HRC proposes to take “executive action” (read: “ignore the law”) to “protect” immigrants. At the same time, she and the left whine about wage stagnation (inevitable when there’s a labor glut caused by immigrants). Citizen labor force participation is low; immigrants fill too many jobs that American citizens can do, and should be doing.
We should look to Canada or Australia for immigration advice. Admit few immigrants, and, then, only those with skills. Send all illegals home immediately.
We should have learned this lesson in 1986. RWR said, in effect, “this much, and no more”. But the Dems were never serious. They LIKE the idea of lots of poor people who will rely upon taxpayer subsidies for a generation or so; people living at the expense of taxpayers are reliable Democrats.
This really isn’t difficult: if you’re here illegally, go home. Now. If you won’t, we will send you home. If you come here illegally, we will catch you and send you (and your kids) home.
Even if you’d make a great American, if all you have to offer is a strong back, we don’t need you. Work at making your own country a place to which people wish to move, rather than one they try to escape.
22
Much of the anger on this issue comes from the conflation of legal and illegal immigration. The left, including the NYTimes, likes to label you anti-immigrant if the illegal version bothers you. I and many other sensible people am all for legal immigration. It is vital to our future success and allows us to maintain our image as the beacon of hope in this oft-cold world. Not to mention it is a humanitarian must. But when the left lumps everyone together, as if those that waited in line and did it the right way are the same as those who overstayed a visa or ran over the border, people get fed up. That is why you see some people (misguidedly) attracted to the rhetoric of a Donald Trump.
Americans are not bad people for being upset when people who came here illegally demand certain things from us as if we owe them. And then they and their representatives in media and congress, instead of appealing to the hearts and good nature of us Americans with humility, try to shame us for being anti-immigrant. They fancy themselves part of a large immigrant community that have similar hardships. Most people see right through that as we know some came here the right way and others didn't. Simple as that. And the left loves to gloss over that fact. Americans shouldn't have to apologize for having some respect for the rule of law and for the people still waiting in legal immigration lines.
Americans are not bad people for being upset when people who came here illegally demand certain things from us as if we owe them. And then they and their representatives in media and congress, instead of appealing to the hearts and good nature of us Americans with humility, try to shame us for being anti-immigrant. They fancy themselves part of a large immigrant community that have similar hardships. Most people see right through that as we know some came here the right way and others didn't. Simple as that. And the left loves to gloss over that fact. Americans shouldn't have to apologize for having some respect for the rule of law and for the people still waiting in legal immigration lines.
22
NYT - "...and an opportunity for the 11 million immigrants living outside the law to earn inclusion and citizenship."
They are not living outside the law they wantonly violated the law. There is a LEGAL method for them to now earn inclusion. Leave the US and apply LEGALLY for residence. As for citizenship, one must show good moral character and violating the law does not.
They are not living outside the law they wantonly violated the law. There is a LEGAL method for them to now earn inclusion. Leave the US and apply LEGALLY for residence. As for citizenship, one must show good moral character and violating the law does not.
17
"Sensible immigration reform" should not mean rewarding those who come here illegally. Sensible should mean enforcing our laws and expecting would-be immigrants to comply. Immigrants should be properly vetted. That is sensible to me and many others. Why is it sensible to flood the country with people who hate us and have nothing to contribute. Only one candidate supports our laws and doesn't flout them."Sensible immigration reform" should not mean rewarding those who come here illegally. Sensible should mean enforcing our laws and expecting would-be immigrants to comply. Immigrants should be properly vetted. That is sensible to me and many others. Why is it sensible to flood the country with people who hate us and have nothing to contribute. Only one candidate supports our laws and doesn't flout them. One Republican candidate, Marco Rubio, aggressively worked for immigration reform. These pages mocked him as rehearsed and robotic. The people have tired of the talking heads.
10
Polling all Americans about immigration reform is like polling all Americans about how the police treat African-American young men. Narrow the polling on the police to African-Americans, and narrow the polling on immigration to the bottom 50% of the economic ladder -- those most affected in their search for labor and service-industry jobs that don't require a college degree, affordable rental housing, health care that doesn't have a four-hour line, and quality public education for their kids -- and the results would be quite different.
11
More than anything, Americans support rule of law. We welcome legal immigrants, and reject those who cut the line and refuse to play by the rules.
24
I get really tired of people claiming that "liberals" want all currently illegal immigrants made legal. Not true. For many years I ran one business and worked part time for another that traditionally employ Hispanic people. Many of my competitors used illegals and paid them cash under the table. That meant the employers were not honestly reporting their own income and were not paying employment taxes. Therefore they had a competition advantage. If the INS wants to quickly round up illegals without midnight raids on houses there are several types of job sites they need to visit. An easy one, start with fancy riding stables and A rated horse shows especially in Florida, California, New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. Then go to large landscape projects and/or large landscape maintenance firms. Follow that up with visits to golf courses, construction sites, poultry processing plants and meat packers. For misuse of worker visas check fancy resorts like the one in Sun Valley, Idaho, many country clubs and my local Harris-Teeter grocery where most of the checkers lately have Eastern European names and barely speak English.
14
Illegal immigration and crime are both at modern historic lows. But Republicans say they are at historic highs. Broadcast these examples of Republican lies far and wide. They are the tip of the ice berg, but it may serve to make people question the rest of the bill of goods they are being sold by that party.
Donald Trump is not the entire problem. It is an entire party that twists or ignores facts, but why?
Donald Trump is not the entire problem. It is an entire party that twists or ignores facts, but why?
3
"Recent polling from the Pew Research Center is instructive: Fifty-nine percent of the public said immigrants “strengthen the country,” while only 33 percent said they were a burden."
Great question - but apparently the Pew Center and the NYT wants us to believe that this applies across the board, thus, voila, Americans support more immigrants. What would be the result, however, if the question asked whether or not illegal immigrants strengthen the country or are a burden? I venture that the numbers would change significantly.
Great question - but apparently the Pew Center and the NYT wants us to believe that this applies across the board, thus, voila, Americans support more immigrants. What would be the result, however, if the question asked whether or not illegal immigrants strengthen the country or are a burden? I venture that the numbers would change significantly.
21
Trump sees every issue as a business transaction on the basis of costs and profits yet he, his Republican allies, and his supporters fail to recognize the economic benefits that the American economy, consumers and business directly receive from and attributable to immigrants.
Immigrants pay taxes and receive very little in federal and state social benefits. Studies show that the largest segment of Americans that receives social benefits from federal and state social programs is poor whites.
Most small service businesses have been able to cut their labor costs by employing immigrants. Go to any construction sites or restaurants' kitchens or landscaping or any business that depends and thrives on manual labor, one will see mostly immigrant workers. These immigrants support Americans' living standard. In fact, Americans' higher standard of living is possible only on the back of these immigrants.
The US prospers and benefits from immigrants. Trump and his allies demagogue the immigration issue and deny the facts because most American businesses and employers benefiting from immigrants' cheap labor, for selfish reasons, are deafeningly silent.
Immigrants pay taxes and receive very little in federal and state social benefits. Studies show that the largest segment of Americans that receives social benefits from federal and state social programs is poor whites.
Most small service businesses have been able to cut their labor costs by employing immigrants. Go to any construction sites or restaurants' kitchens or landscaping or any business that depends and thrives on manual labor, one will see mostly immigrant workers. These immigrants support Americans' living standard. In fact, Americans' higher standard of living is possible only on the back of these immigrants.
The US prospers and benefits from immigrants. Trump and his allies demagogue the immigration issue and deny the facts because most American businesses and employers benefiting from immigrants' cheap labor, for selfish reasons, are deafeningly silent.
2
Half of all immigrants are on welfare. Go look it up. Any savings they provide is more than offset by the costs they impose.
13
The New York Times editorial people: a classic example of the Establishment lecturing, not listening. On the left, there is the "one-worlders" who welcome the "melting pot" and on the right, the .1% who love the constant downward pressure on salaries and care less about anyone else but themselves. They carefully avoided the other Pew Research which, a few weeks ago, recorded that the number babies born the previous month from minority parents exceeded those of the "majority" parents. Anyone can understand - the immigration battle has been lost. Maybe not your town, but the minority is the majority in the United States. Meanwhile, the middle class has almost vanished, upward mobility is only a dream and the life span of blue collar America is actually in decline. Yet the Establishment continue lecturing as if nothing is wrong.
28
Racists don't like facts.
1
Controlling borders, setting limits, defining entry criteria. These are legitimate and necessary controls every country applies to immigration. The liberal paradises constantly held up as models have some of the strictest policies in this regard. Name calling such measures as is the default position of much of the left is just that - screeds in search of an imagined calumny. There is such a thing as carrying capacity and for now, we have reached it.
20
Trump’s immigration stance has three purposes none of which benefit this country. First, to spread fear (rapists and murderers), second to provide a scapegoat along with Muslims, and last and most important, if he is actually elected, a basis for a police state, operating beyond the law and our Constitution or what’s left of it after a Trump Supreme Court get finished with it in a deportation frenzy. .
1
When you are on a plane, the emergency instructions state that if the cabin loses pressure and the oxygen masks descend, passengers are to put their masks on first before helping their seatmates.
As a country, we have "lost pressure" regarding our economy and security. There is nothing wrong with saying that we need to "put our oxygen mask" on first before helping others. How much good can we be to others if we are not on firm footing ourselves?
As a country, we have "lost pressure" regarding our economy and security. There is nothing wrong with saying that we need to "put our oxygen mask" on first before helping others. How much good can we be to others if we are not on firm footing ourselves?
13
The Democratic National Committee and Mrs. Clinton cynically used Mr. Khan, and the death of his son, as elements of a classic informal fallacy construct. It is a straw man argument, and it is a) not surprising and b) very disappointing, that the editorial board chooses to participate in its promulgation.
By using Mr. Khan in this manner, the Democrats cynically put forth the argument that Mr. Trump is against all resident Muslims and against all resident immigrants in the US. This is false.
In addition - by false equivalence - they attempt to extend rights granted solely to citizens and legal residents of the United States, to unlanded immigrants, which is unconstitutional.
He has only suggested that temporary restriction be put in place until a better way to ensure the exclusion from immigration, of persons likely to be associated with violent terrorism - including violent Islamist extremists such as ISIS sympathizers.
The same legal tool has been utilized by many Presidents. Despite his public bluster, in fact, any similar use by Trump would have to be carefully worded and crafted to be specific - just as the others were.
That Mr. Khan continues to participate in this fallacy calls into question his true motivation.
By using Mr. Khan in this manner, the Democrats cynically put forth the argument that Mr. Trump is against all resident Muslims and against all resident immigrants in the US. This is false.
In addition - by false equivalence - they attempt to extend rights granted solely to citizens and legal residents of the United States, to unlanded immigrants, which is unconstitutional.
He has only suggested that temporary restriction be put in place until a better way to ensure the exclusion from immigration, of persons likely to be associated with violent terrorism - including violent Islamist extremists such as ISIS sympathizers.
The same legal tool has been utilized by many Presidents. Despite his public bluster, in fact, any similar use by Trump would have to be carefully worded and crafted to be specific - just as the others were.
That Mr. Khan continues to participate in this fallacy calls into question his true motivation.
14
Immigration to the US has always been problematic, unless there was a labor shortage to be filled. That's not the case now and to expect people to be silent while laws, customs and traditions are ignored in favor of misguided altruism is a bit much. How do you think people like Trump gain traction with the electorate?
17
There's a natural barrier to immigration that few people recognize or choose to recognize. It's hard. First they need the immagination to see a better life in a foreign country, then the energy, skills and intelegence to make it happen. Such a person is inherently a good employee, and will boost economic activity thus improving all our lives.
I'm not sure I have any problem with the status quo.
I'm not sure I have any problem with the status quo.
2
Hillary could lose the election by advocating open borders and forcing law abiding Americans to swallow the bitter pill of 11 million law violating border jumpers. She would be better advised to acknowledge American nationalism.
A nation endures to the extent that its population adopts its nationality. Nationality is rooted in language and acceptance of the rule of law. American language is English. American law is secular.
Those who have no intent of learning English or who have no intent of conforming to secular law have no intent of joining our nation. We're stronger together as a nation, we're weaker when divided linguistically and/or by lack of respect for the rule of law.
A nation endures to the extent that its population adopts its nationality. Nationality is rooted in language and acceptance of the rule of law. American language is English. American law is secular.
Those who have no intent of learning English or who have no intent of conforming to secular law have no intent of joining our nation. We're stronger together as a nation, we're weaker when divided linguistically and/or by lack of respect for the rule of law.
23
Mass deportation is unworkable, both from a practical as well as political standpoint. The best solution is to encourage people living in the US illegally to step forward and get their paperwork in order. No one wants to live as an 'illegal.'
As usual, playing straight into the (tiny) hands of Trump and his supporters, the NYT Editorial Board refuses to acknowledge the significant role played by US employers in encouraging and supporting illegal US immigration.
'The greatest incentive for illegal aliens to come to the United States is to find work. If there are no employers willing to hire them, then the flood of illegal aliens will subside. The Immigration and Reform Act of 1986 outlawed hiring illegal alien workers, although common practice has proven that measure ineffective for two reasons:
• The law requires proof that the employer knowingly hired the illegal worker.
• The prevalence of fake documents make it difficult to prove the employer knew that the employee’s work documents were not legitimate.'
http://www.fairus.org/issue/employer-sanctions
'The greatest incentive for illegal aliens to come to the United States is to find work. If there are no employers willing to hire them, then the flood of illegal aliens will subside. The Immigration and Reform Act of 1986 outlawed hiring illegal alien workers, although common practice has proven that measure ineffective for two reasons:
• The law requires proof that the employer knowingly hired the illegal worker.
• The prevalence of fake documents make it difficult to prove the employer knew that the employee’s work documents were not legitimate.'
http://www.fairus.org/issue/employer-sanctions
14
Both President Bush and President Obama supported immigration reform. The last 2 years of the Bush administration and first two years of the Obama administration had a democratic Senate lead by Mr. Reid and a Democratic Congress lead by Mrs. Pelosi. Nothing got done.
The difference is, prior to 2008 incomes were generally rising, home ownership was rising and the economic anxiety was overall much lower. After another 8 years of war, massive displacement of people, vicious attacks in the West becoming a part of the daily news cycle, low wages and high underemployment the public is angry and looking to scape goat others for their problems.
There are no simple truths, conditions change, perceptions change and there is a reason that neo-facism is on the rise in Europe, Israel and the US.
The difference is, prior to 2008 incomes were generally rising, home ownership was rising and the economic anxiety was overall much lower. After another 8 years of war, massive displacement of people, vicious attacks in the West becoming a part of the daily news cycle, low wages and high underemployment the public is angry and looking to scape goat others for their problems.
There are no simple truths, conditions change, perceptions change and there is a reason that neo-facism is on the rise in Europe, Israel and the US.
6
None of which explains Prop 184 in 1994, the Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, the The Border Protection, Anti-terrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005, etc.
Its an open secret that Democrats want to bloat illegal immigration numbers because once the production of so called " border babies" increases, they will most likely grow up poor and gravitate to the permanent underclass that the democrat party relies upon for its power base. Cradle to grave government assistance is what is destroying our deficit and the democrats turn a blind eye as long as they remain in power. The government nipple has now been sucked dry. Obama has nearly doubled the national debt in 8 years with hand out after handout and what have we achieved virtually nothing. Low wage jobs are the new normal. The affordable care act is a fantasy as costs have gone up across the board. If you want your doctor you can keep him was bold faced lie. Obama called Bush "unpatriotic" for amassing his debt and Obama has amassed more debt than every President before him combined. The democrats don't want a wall because walls work. They live securely in their gated communities (i.e. behind walls); Obama lives behind a wall. but America can not be secure, because that would somehow be mean or insensitive. That is what we are being sold and Trump has finally blown it up. Americans want a wall if they vote Trump it is a wall they will get. The NYT's refuses to give air to these facts or opinions and I expect this rebuttal will never be published and if it is I will see it in two days buried at the bottom of the queue, as usual.
24
Immigration trends, like clouds, swirl around the planet freely and in unison. They flow from places of resource scarcity and political turmoil to places with sustainable resources and political stability. In other words people migrate from bad countries to good countries.
Basically if people are choosing to migrate to your country its a good thing. Coordinate and culture that migration and it becomes a great thing. Thats what makes America great.
Basically if people are choosing to migrate to your country its a good thing. Coordinate and culture that migration and it becomes a great thing. Thats what makes America great.
2
When that migration turns "sustainable resources and political stability" into diminished resources and political instability then it is a bad thing, which is what we are seeing here.
7
The truth is that no one in authority is about to speak the truth about immigration.
Latinos who have filtered through our southern border are willing to take the risks associated with the desert and getting caught, because the minimum wage is five dollars a day, but if the hours on not contiguous the minimum does not apply. So who is willing to accept that when they can emigrate to the North for better pay, better working conditions, and the prospects of a middle class future back in Mexico or Guatemala for themselves and their families?
Without the Paisanos Mexico would truly be nothing but the very rich, and the poor, living lives of desperation in a narco democracy. Without the Paisanos, and the convenient fact that illegal labor is cheap labor those employers who have remained in the Continental US would have to pay a living wage to all workers, with benefits, and this they are mostly unwilling to do. The beauty of the ease with which illegals can enter and reenter the US is that they can be counted on by business, but at the same time can never form unions becasue they are most happily illegal. Happy for the employers that is!
Are American workers upset? Yes, and they have every right to be. Here in N. Florida thousands of new homes are being built today, but try to find a gringo on the work crews, or who can compete with illegal businesses.
Latinos pay withholding, FICA, but will never collect a dime, and this is how the elite who are playing us like things to be.
Latinos who have filtered through our southern border are willing to take the risks associated with the desert and getting caught, because the minimum wage is five dollars a day, but if the hours on not contiguous the minimum does not apply. So who is willing to accept that when they can emigrate to the North for better pay, better working conditions, and the prospects of a middle class future back in Mexico or Guatemala for themselves and their families?
Without the Paisanos Mexico would truly be nothing but the very rich, and the poor, living lives of desperation in a narco democracy. Without the Paisanos, and the convenient fact that illegal labor is cheap labor those employers who have remained in the Continental US would have to pay a living wage to all workers, with benefits, and this they are mostly unwilling to do. The beauty of the ease with which illegals can enter and reenter the US is that they can be counted on by business, but at the same time can never form unions becasue they are most happily illegal. Happy for the employers that is!
Are American workers upset? Yes, and they have every right to be. Here in N. Florida thousands of new homes are being built today, but try to find a gringo on the work crews, or who can compete with illegal businesses.
Latinos pay withholding, FICA, but will never collect a dime, and this is how the elite who are playing us like things to be.
11
It is inarguable to suggest immigration is anything but good for our country. Most reading this editorial can trace their ancestry to another country. But as you look across Europe now there is very good reason to look very hard at unmanaged immigration. This is a very valid issue and, while Trump has a screw (or two) loose, he is bringing attention to an issue that needs attention and discourse.
12
Illegal Immigrants are a problem. The New York Times is so Politically Correct they cannot even use the word. You wonder why Trump and Sanders are popular because they don't pay the game.
28
It's wearying to state the obvious, but let me try:
-Immigrants are human beings.
-Illegal Immigrants are desperate human beings.
-It's (counterintuitively) helpful to us in many practical ways, for our longterm, as well as short term benefit, to have a just immigration policy.
-it does us no good whatsoever to demonize immigrants. It's terrible for our reputation as a country, terrible for our economy, terrible (counterintuitively) for our economic interests, security interests, and moral standing (which strengthens our economic interests and security interests...
-Immigrants are human beings.
-Illegal Immigrants are desperate human beings.
-It's (counterintuitively) helpful to us in many practical ways, for our longterm, as well as short term benefit, to have a just immigration policy.
-it does us no good whatsoever to demonize immigrants. It's terrible for our reputation as a country, terrible for our economy, terrible (counterintuitively) for our economic interests, security interests, and moral standing (which strengthens our economic interests and security interests...
4
It would be great of America had a reputation for enforcing immigration laws, but it has a reputation for not enforcing its immigration laws. This is why American has 11 million illegal immigrants. Requiring tourists to leave before their visas expire doesn’t demonize or dehumanize tourists. Requiring migrants who enter the country illegally to leave doesn't demonize them or dehumanize them either.
6
"despite the grieving parents offered up as evidence that all immigrants are killers "
I challenge the Times to find a single instance where anyone anywhere has used the word "all" in speaking of immigrants.
Your own paper has a set of pictures from Falluja that detail a catastrophe of civilization that some Americans fear is coming here evidenced by the mass killings in the name of a God.
I challenge the Times to find a single instance where anyone anywhere has used the word "all" in speaking of immigrants.
Your own paper has a set of pictures from Falluja that detail a catastrophe of civilization that some Americans fear is coming here evidenced by the mass killings in the name of a God.
20
This is very simple. First a country must have laws on immigration, without them the rule of law is damaged and benefits that should only go to citizens go to law breakers. It is very clear that we have a large number of illegal immigrants, more coming from a variety of areas of the world. These take jobs that should be for citizens and somewhat use up public services, they also send money out of the country to support foreign economies. So what to do? We must discourage more illegal immigrants and remove under first priority criminal illegals. When we have this under control we need to decide who to allow to stay, who to deport and how to do this. I don't support removing long term illegals, nor breaking up families. I also want the idea that you get citizenship as today. Until we reduce inflows nothing else will be done to legalize current residents.
8
Academic research in the latest edition of the well-regarded Homeland Security Affairs Journal substantiates that immigrants from "terrorist countries" are reaching and crossing our land borders and that Trump is quite correct in his claims that migrants from "terrorist countries" can be deliniated in border security policy. It is all spelled out here: https://www.hsaj.org/articles/10568
The research describes what "terrorist countries" actually are and names them specifically, as defined in formal U.S. counterterrorism and border security policies enacted after 9/11. Trump and his minions have a strong foundation in their claims; they just don't really know how to articulate it as is done
The research describes what "terrorist countries" actually are and names them specifically, as defined in formal U.S. counterterrorism and border security policies enacted after 9/11. Trump and his minions have a strong foundation in their claims; they just don't really know how to articulate it as is done
21
President Eisenhower showed it’s possible to deport millions of illegal immigrants. In 1954, Ike launched Operation Wetback, an unfortunately named sweep that removed more than one million unauthorized immigrants in just several months. The operation involved 750 immigration and border patrol officers, a fraction of the force ICE could marshal today. However, most Americans wouldn’t insist on the removal of all unauthorized immigrates or even most illegal immigrants. They want to stop future illegal immigration, which is something that the federal government has proven it can’t do alone. We should pass congressional legislation that empowers states, cities and counties to arrest migrants for unlawfully residing in their jurisdictions. We should change policy to deny asylum to all migrants who enter the country illegally. We should amend the citizenship clause to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to U.S. parents. Once these measures are in effect, we should offer citizenship or permanent legal resident status to unauthorized immigrants who have established roots in American.
6
If 'established roots' means illegal aliens have made extensive use of our social services, having children born on welfare, paid for by Medicaid, then they should not be allowed to remain.
Because once people see everything as 'free' and every child a way to scam more money from the taxpayers, they will not only always be a burden to society, but will teach their children to do the same.
Because once people see everything as 'free' and every child a way to scam more money from the taxpayers, they will not only always be a burden to society, but will teach their children to do the same.
8
The Times editorial board shows how unfamiliar it is with the facts when it states that Obama "set[ting] a record for aggressive deportations." In fact, Obama started counting turn aways at the border as deportations, and he has been in fact substantially reducing deportations. See https://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/february-12-2013/how-obama-admin... If the facts get in the way of the Leftist agenda, the Left just makes them up.
My suggestion as to how to remove those who are illegally here is to enact substantial but not super high financial penalties on the illegal entrants. This has the benefit of giving the illegal entrants choice as to when they would leave instead of having them arrested and deported. Those who would be doing financially well in the U.S. could stay by paying the penalties. To those who would state this would be impractical, I would suggest that they look at the extreme reporting requirements (and extreme penalties for non-compliance) for American citizens who have bank accounts in foreign countries. If the government can be so creative and extreme in regulating these people (to the extent that many foreign banks don't want Americans as customers), if it had the will, it could do so with respect to illegal entrants.
JD
My suggestion as to how to remove those who are illegally here is to enact substantial but not super high financial penalties on the illegal entrants. This has the benefit of giving the illegal entrants choice as to when they would leave instead of having them arrested and deported. Those who would be doing financially well in the U.S. could stay by paying the penalties. To those who would state this would be impractical, I would suggest that they look at the extreme reporting requirements (and extreme penalties for non-compliance) for American citizens who have bank accounts in foreign countries. If the government can be so creative and extreme in regulating these people (to the extent that many foreign banks don't want Americans as customers), if it had the will, it could do so with respect to illegal entrants.
JD
9
I may have gotten the sequence out of order, but it sure looked like this Muslim family whose son was killed by radical Muslims was unknown to Trump before the DNC convention before they viciously attacked Trump because he made a simple common sense proposal to temporarily halt Muslim immigration from countries where terrorism was prevalent until we could improve our vetting process to insure terrorists would not slip into the US along with legitimate refugees like they have been doing in Europe. Also, it seems to me that most of the heat Trump is taking is coming from his response to questions asked of him by Clinton supporter and close friend George Stephanopoulos which were designed to illicit remarks from Trump that could be distorted and used against him. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Trump had nothing to do with their son’s death and if Trump’s proposal were in effect back when the family migrated to the US maybe their son would be alive today and maybe the World Trade Center would still be standing and maybe we would not have gone to war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
23
The people of the US are permeated by the words of the poem of Emma Lazarus (1849) about the Statue of Liberty -- "From her beacon-hand/Glows world-wide welcome".
If they want to accept the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" only from certain lands, let them have their say.
If they want to accept the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" only from certain lands, let them have their say.
1
Why is there no distinction made between legal and illegal immigration ?
It seems that anyone who is against illegal immigration is branded as " anti-immigrant ".
It seems that anyone who is against illegal immigration is branded as " anti-immigrant ".
24
Isn't it interesting that you just held Trump accountable for his statement about Mrs. Khan's lack of comment at the Democratic convention, and yet you hold her invisible by not noting that she was in the picture you used in this article.
17
Yes, like others here I consider this article a typical example of bad liberal thinking, what this writer brings up as issues are non-issues to most liberals.
What do you do with people who enter the country illegally and attempt to settle here? What do we do with this in a country based on law? If we say, "Oh, well fait accompli, we just should accept their being here", what should we do with our other laws?
Liberals are not against controlled immigration, in fact the vast majority of this country would affirm that immigration is good. This is light years away from saying that we should open the migrant floodgates, or that the countless thousands of Latin American children who are streaming to our border should simply be let into the US.
Why publish these articles that only deflect our attention from the real issues? This is the more interesting question, and the obvious answer is the reason why this country is unable to truly address the crisis of homeless migrants pouring into Western countries around the world.
What do you do with people who enter the country illegally and attempt to settle here? What do we do with this in a country based on law? If we say, "Oh, well fait accompli, we just should accept their being here", what should we do with our other laws?
Liberals are not against controlled immigration, in fact the vast majority of this country would affirm that immigration is good. This is light years away from saying that we should open the migrant floodgates, or that the countless thousands of Latin American children who are streaming to our border should simply be let into the US.
Why publish these articles that only deflect our attention from the real issues? This is the more interesting question, and the obvious answer is the reason why this country is unable to truly address the crisis of homeless migrants pouring into Western countries around the world.
17
Another nyts reader who is more informed and open minded than the entire nyts editorial board. Shameful.
4
A simple truth is that the cliché that America is a “nation of immigrants” has always been false. Most Americans were not immigrants even at the time the nation was founded in 1776. In fact, a larger percent of Americans were native-born during the Revolutionary War than they are today. From about 1675 onward, the native-born population of what would become United States never dropped below 85% of the total. Probably more than 90 percent of Americans were native-born when the first shots of the Revolutionary War was fired at Lexington and Concord. Today, 13.2 percent of the population is foreign-born. This is a record high, but it still doesn’t make Americans a “nation of immigrant.
13
Of course. However, no written word can defeat Trump.
1
Hillary’s husband President Bill Clinton signed the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 into law. This act, which passed with huge bi-partisan majorities in both houses, calls for the deportation of unauthorized immigrants and a crackdown on employers who hire them. If Hillary wins the election, she will take an oath to faithfully execute the Office of the President. The Constitution tasks presidents to “take care to see that the laws are faithfully executed.” The presidential oath will not oblige her to agree with the immigration law or prevent her for working to change the law, but it will oblige her to enforce the law to the best of her abilities while it is in effect.
11
Our children begin to learn about laws and what they mean around the fourth and fifth grades.
Not long afterwards, they realize that for years, our immigration laws were ignored to the tune of at least 12 million illegals.
So, it stands to reason that they will conclude some laws must be obeyed and others can be ignored.
If anyone thinks this is good for our country, I've got some great oil well stocks to sell you.
Only in America.
Not long afterwards, they realize that for years, our immigration laws were ignored to the tune of at least 12 million illegals.
So, it stands to reason that they will conclude some laws must be obeyed and others can be ignored.
If anyone thinks this is good for our country, I've got some great oil well stocks to sell you.
Only in America.
22
The problem with immigration is not found in the facts, it is found in the process we find at this point in time:
- Asylums or refugees, Somalis come to mind, dropped variously in places like Maine, the poorest state per capita, with no means to reasonably integrate them and give them employment. No families ahead of them, only social service agencies overwhelmed.
- A failure to responsibly draft clear law addressing a labor crisis on our Southern border. When children are being sent to America without their families, that is a different kettle of fish. Worthy of our attention? Yes. The right process, no.
- Ambivalence about English. Due to the rapid influx of Spanish language immigrants, we have many cities trying to dual-language services. Is that really sensible? Does it have precedent? No, not really.
Immigration is the lifeblood of America. Not the process we follow right now.
Look at the Reagan versus Bush debates to see how compassion has devolved into a fist-fight, born of legislative failure.
https://youtu.be/vBWUOOzuWIY
Measuring Americans' compassion, during a time of challenging economics, is hypocritical in the extreme. Politicians have used immigrants as pawns, thinking neither of their welfare nor the long-term health of the country that will support them. It is interesting that Democrats always seem to be on the side of sowing voter opportunity from chaos.
I cannot stand Trump, but this has been gift-wrapped for a sick person like him.
- Asylums or refugees, Somalis come to mind, dropped variously in places like Maine, the poorest state per capita, with no means to reasonably integrate them and give them employment. No families ahead of them, only social service agencies overwhelmed.
- A failure to responsibly draft clear law addressing a labor crisis on our Southern border. When children are being sent to America without their families, that is a different kettle of fish. Worthy of our attention? Yes. The right process, no.
- Ambivalence about English. Due to the rapid influx of Spanish language immigrants, we have many cities trying to dual-language services. Is that really sensible? Does it have precedent? No, not really.
Immigration is the lifeblood of America. Not the process we follow right now.
Look at the Reagan versus Bush debates to see how compassion has devolved into a fist-fight, born of legislative failure.
https://youtu.be/vBWUOOzuWIY
Measuring Americans' compassion, during a time of challenging economics, is hypocritical in the extreme. Politicians have used immigrants as pawns, thinking neither of their welfare nor the long-term health of the country that will support them. It is interesting that Democrats always seem to be on the side of sowing voter opportunity from chaos.
I cannot stand Trump, but this has been gift-wrapped for a sick person like him.
9
It is a simple fact that the massive influx of immigrants , not only in Europe but also in the U.S., is due to conflicts in the Middle East where many areas of the region are now uninhabitable because of all the massive destruction of war. Clearly, limiting the shipment of all arms to regions such as this would significantly reduce such destruction. In this, the U.S. -- as the worlds leading supplier of armaments-- bear enormous responsibility (see: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/07/tomdispatch-dc-congress-defe... ). In so doing, it has lost the moral high ground on this issue. It is any wonder that it is impossible to enact sensible gun control measures in this country.
5
The editorial board of The Times is wrong, it does not takes a careful review of the facts to show that Donald Trump's statements are gross mischaracterizations, even the most cursory review of the evidence show Trump's statements to be wholly untethered to reality. Suggesting otherwise provides a fig leaf to his supporters and enablers within Republicans who refuse to denounce his candidacy to claim that they simply didn't understand how utterly incorrect Trump's statements were before the election.
2
All this does not hurt Trump with his base as they are literally living (and want to continue) to live in a fact free world.
If the data doesn't support their preconceived, ideological position the action is to:
- deny the source of the data as being biased,
- claim the polls are inaccurate ("they didn't ask me"),
- claim the data and results were manipulated by Obama, etc.
The same theme applies to climate change, gun safety, WMD in Iraq, OECD statistics on the economy, education, healthcare, etc.
It all reminds me of the creation of Nazi-sanctioned science and information and of course propaganda... sad that these people have evolved to this state and sad for the country as a whole as we continue to waste time (years and decades) not addressing crucial problems... until the loud minority is somehow placated.
If the data doesn't support their preconceived, ideological position the action is to:
- deny the source of the data as being biased,
- claim the polls are inaccurate ("they didn't ask me"),
- claim the data and results were manipulated by Obama, etc.
The same theme applies to climate change, gun safety, WMD in Iraq, OECD statistics on the economy, education, healthcare, etc.
It all reminds me of the creation of Nazi-sanctioned science and information and of course propaganda... sad that these people have evolved to this state and sad for the country as a whole as we continue to waste time (years and decades) not addressing crucial problems... until the loud minority is somehow placated.
3
Another MYTH the GOP promulgates is that illegal immigrants are voting in mass numbers in our elections. This distortion of the facts has been used to pass innumerable laws aimed solely at restricting minorities from voting.
But this is not Trump's doing. It has been a Republican strategy for years. How these "patriotic" Americans undermine the very foundation of the nation which they profess to love...it is unfathomable to me. It is also fundamentally RACIST and dismissive of FACT. Illegal immigrants are not voting. The only electoral fraud going on is the purging of voter registries by the GOP.
This country was built by immigrants. It has always been our strength, and I couldn't have been more proud at the diversity at the Democratic Convention.
But this is not Trump's doing. It has been a Republican strategy for years. How these "patriotic" Americans undermine the very foundation of the nation which they profess to love...it is unfathomable to me. It is also fundamentally RACIST and dismissive of FACT. Illegal immigrants are not voting. The only electoral fraud going on is the purging of voter registries by the GOP.
This country was built by immigrants. It has always been our strength, and I couldn't have been more proud at the diversity at the Democratic Convention.
2
It seems to me the Editorial Board who wrote this article, has never even talked to those guarding our borders. However, our borders is not the purpose of the article.
This is just propaganda to discredit Donald Trump, who is not part of either party's corrupted political agenda with the powerbrokers. How many people know the connection of the Clinton's and Bush's to the globalists? Knowing their connection, we would understand how our rights have been taken away illegally and legally given to those who run the global economy. Everything is designed to bring every country in the world under one government without us being aware it is already WWIII.
This is just propaganda to discredit Donald Trump, who is not part of either party's corrupted political agenda with the powerbrokers. How many people know the connection of the Clinton's and Bush's to the globalists? Knowing their connection, we would understand how our rights have been taken away illegally and legally given to those who run the global economy. Everything is designed to bring every country in the world under one government without us being aware it is already WWIII.
13
But you have not addressed the issue of respect for the law. If you allow 11 million people to flout our immigration law, how can you , in good conscience, put Kim Davis in prison for failing to sign marriage certificates? And Kim Davis is even a citizen, and she was elected as a Democrat.
There is also the issue of self interest for the Democratic party. Undocumented immigrants, if they become citizens, will vote Democratic. So your bread is buttered on a certain side.
Finally there is the issue of fairness for people seeking LEGAL immigration. Why are they being told "there is no level playing field. YOU must go through the arduous process of applying for a visa, maybe being denied, paying hefty fees, etc. And meanwhile 11 million people do not have to do any of these things."
I do not deny the validity of some of the things you say. But you should answer my questions.
There is also the issue of self interest for the Democratic party. Undocumented immigrants, if they become citizens, will vote Democratic. So your bread is buttered on a certain side.
Finally there is the issue of fairness for people seeking LEGAL immigration. Why are they being told "there is no level playing field. YOU must go through the arduous process of applying for a visa, maybe being denied, paying hefty fees, etc. And meanwhile 11 million people do not have to do any of these things."
I do not deny the validity of some of the things you say. But you should answer my questions.
19
Was it foreign born Muslims that started this by blowing up the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001 and killing over 3,000 innocent civilians or not? Muslim terrorists, both foreign born and home grown have changed our entire way of life from that day forward and continue to do so costing us trillions of dollars and thousands of innocent lives both here at home and around the World. Proposing to temporarily halt the migration of Muslims from foreign countries where terrorism is a way of life is common sense and a proposal that is supported by most Americans. I guess folks here who see that as a bad idea don't know what happened in Europe when they opened their borders to Muslims from these countries. Maybe that Muslim soldier would be alive today if Muslims did not blow up the World Trade Center or if his parents didn't come to America in the first place?
17
The NYTimes and the Democratic party are not listening to the people. (I am not a Trump supporter.) We're not against immigration, we're against injudiciously allowing anyone who wants to come to this country into this country. We can't do it. We don't have the resources, we don't have the mechanisms for security. We can't even protect ourselves from the gun-wielding citizens threatening us daily. Our economy, though better than most countries is struggling, our infrastructure is failing. It's a sad picture for America. How many companies have fired their workers (Disney is one) to bring in foreign help at a lower price. Another commenter called this cannabalistic capitalism. This isn't outsourcing, this is maintaining the job in this country, but having foreign workers doing it for less. I don't know Muslims that might kill themselves, and me, here, but we've seen that happen. Why should we send our troops to die in Middle Eastern countries, when their able-bodied youth are fleeing those countries for entry into the West? These are complex issues, and a blanket statement from the Democratic party, saying that we love everyone and want everyone here just doesn't resonate with us, liberal or not-so liberal. We're losing battles from within and without and pandering to the Hispanics or Muslims, doesn't make this country stronger, nor does it make the Democratic party more lovable. It just puts them less in touch with their base.
96
Hide if you will, but your children and grandchildren will pay the price. FDR, one of the greatest of our Presidents, said at the beginning of WWII, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself."
Why, our political parties exist not merely to represent us to the point where whatever we want they will make happen. They exist, even more importantly, to have the courage we, the voters lack, to make the most difficult decisions in our interest, whether we can understand the reasons or not.
Fear would have kept Army Captain Khan from entering this country a dozen years ago. Would not all of those native-born American soldiers he died to protect have been killed had he not been there to save them? What a gift he gave us for letting his family move here! A hero! And a father and mother who honored his choice and now have taught us so much about our foolishness.
As they say, the workings of the Lord are mysterious. But the ultimate truth of God is that he gives us but a brief span to live whether terrorism is or is not. Our job is not to hide from the world during that dream of life, but always to do the right thing -- love all his creations -- open our arms to the needy -- the hopeless.
Selfishly building walls against the rest of the world flies in the face of all definitions of kindness.
We imprison but ourselves.
Why, our political parties exist not merely to represent us to the point where whatever we want they will make happen. They exist, even more importantly, to have the courage we, the voters lack, to make the most difficult decisions in our interest, whether we can understand the reasons or not.
Fear would have kept Army Captain Khan from entering this country a dozen years ago. Would not all of those native-born American soldiers he died to protect have been killed had he not been there to save them? What a gift he gave us for letting his family move here! A hero! And a father and mother who honored his choice and now have taught us so much about our foolishness.
As they say, the workings of the Lord are mysterious. But the ultimate truth of God is that he gives us but a brief span to live whether terrorism is or is not. Our job is not to hide from the world during that dream of life, but always to do the right thing -- love all his creations -- open our arms to the needy -- the hopeless.
Selfishly building walls against the rest of the world flies in the face of all definitions of kindness.
We imprison but ourselves.
1
I know these are the “Op” Ed pages, but in years of reading tens of thousands of words of bloviation on immigration and jobs, all I ever see are opinions largely unencumbered by data. Specifically, I’ve yet to see anyone calculate what will happen to my cost of living when “illegal” workers are deported. How much will wages of low-skilled jobs (and specifically the minimum wage) have to increase in order for currently unemployed US citizens to accept those jobs? And how much will that increase the cost of my food, restaurant meals, house cleaning, yard work, etc. etc? This is not a rhetorical point. I don’t know what the answer is. Maybe even a significant increase in the lowest wages will be a small enough percentage of total cost that the price of services won’t increase very much. But maybe some things that we all do not want to eschew (I really don’t want to go back to mowing my lawn) will cost a lot more. I don’t know. And bloviators on both sides of the argument don’t know either. But I do know it’s the Republican way to push for plans the costs of which we ignore until they sink the economy (thanks, Iraq war). Can we hear from some economists about the economic impact on everyday people of removing low-wage workers? Or maybe just bloviate about it.
1
Sounds like the same dilemma cotton farmers had in the 1860s.
3
Teenagers, the young adults who were just out of school and needed work experience, and many legal immigrants used to mow the grass and shovel the snow, clean houses and hotel rooms, babysit, work in restaurants, and so on.
Now Americans and legal residents are displaced by undocumented workers. A local radio station runs a show every summer on where teens could possibly find a job because there are so few jobs for them.
No one talks about all of the adults who have become so discouraged about finding a decent-paying job that they have stopped even looking. The NYT could write about Americans and legal immigrants who have "given up" trying to compete with illegal immigrants for jobs.
You cannot get even an entry-level construction job of helping to put up the frame of a house, around the Seattle area, unless you speak Spanish to be able to understand your co-workers.
Now Americans and legal residents are displaced by undocumented workers. A local radio station runs a show every summer on where teens could possibly find a job because there are so few jobs for them.
No one talks about all of the adults who have become so discouraged about finding a decent-paying job that they have stopped even looking. The NYT could write about Americans and legal immigrants who have "given up" trying to compete with illegal immigrants for jobs.
You cannot get even an entry-level construction job of helping to put up the frame of a house, around the Seattle area, unless you speak Spanish to be able to understand your co-workers.
5
Simple Immigration Truths
• Americans aren’t divided over immigration. They favor legal immigration and oppose illegal immigration.
• We don’t need illegal immigration to spur the economy or sustain population levels. We can attract all the legal immigrants we want by raising legal immigration quotas. Millions are waiting in line.
• The admission that we have too many illegal immigrants to deport is an admission that the federal government cannot stop illegal immigration on its own. We should empower state and cities to enforce immigration laws that mirror federal immigration laws. We should also reinterpret or amend the citizenship to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to American citizens.
• Once steps are taken to effectively stop future illegal immigration, Americans might consider amnesty for “dreamers” and other unauthorized immigrants residing within our borders.
• Americans aren’t divided over immigration. They favor legal immigration and oppose illegal immigration.
• We don’t need illegal immigration to spur the economy or sustain population levels. We can attract all the legal immigrants we want by raising legal immigration quotas. Millions are waiting in line.
• The admission that we have too many illegal immigrants to deport is an admission that the federal government cannot stop illegal immigration on its own. We should empower state and cities to enforce immigration laws that mirror federal immigration laws. We should also reinterpret or amend the citizenship to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to American citizens.
• Once steps are taken to effectively stop future illegal immigration, Americans might consider amnesty for “dreamers” and other unauthorized immigrants residing within our borders.
13
Mr.Khan's story about his son is an exception..not the fule
8
In all the hand-wringing and disaster-peddling around immigration, we still constantly fail to acknowledge the benefits that undocumented workers bring us. Last year Pew Research showed that undocumented workers in three particular states -- New Jersey, Washington, and Idaho -- made up over 50% of the agricultural workforce. When the state of Georgia introduced its draconian immigration controls in 2010, the state's tomato farmers couldn't find local labor that could last more than half a day in the fields. Tomatoes rotted in the fields. Of course immigration is an important and complex issue; anyone with common sense realizes that. But if you want your household's supply of apples and lettuce and tomatoes etc etc to continue at the same prices, it'd be a good idea to start acknowledging the vital role these undocumented workers play in our economy and our well-fed lives.
5
Perhaps if all the costs of the so-called cheap illegal labor: school crowding, medical care, bilingual education, public assistance (remember their kids are "citizens"), the environment from the extra humans etc were included in a fact based discussion instead of passed on without being honestly tallied we be getting somewhere.
5
The federal government could make it easier to bring in temporary workers to work in the fields, if farmers cannot either raise wages to entice more Americans back to the fields or buy automated equipment to do the work.
The temporary workers would be paid more than they could make back in Mexico or Central America. And they would be able to buy more in their home countries, with this money, than they could purchase here.
The temporary workers would be paid more than they could make back in Mexico or Central America. And they would be able to buy more in their home countries, with this money, than they could purchase here.
2
The undocumenteds "made up 50% of the work force" because they would work for much less than legal immigrants or citizens. LEGAL immigrants are happy to work in agriculture, but the employers want the cheapest. those who will work "off the books" in most cases, saving the employer a lot of money.
6
Many people do not realize the reforms being advocated by the Editorial Board and others were already made into law in 1986 with the Simpson-Mazzoli Act. Here is what it was supposed to do:
1. Required employers to attest to the status of their employees.
2. Made it illegal to knowingly hire or recruit undocumented immigrants.
3. Legalized certain seasonal agriculture migrants.
4. Legalized existing undocumented workers (3 million).
Businesses objected to penalties for hiring undocumented workers and the bill was rewritten so they would not be asked to check documents, undercutting the strongest mechanism for reducing the flow of undocumented workers. As a consequence we now have 11 million undocumented workers.
Reform without penalties and checking of documents didn't work in 1986 and it wouldn't work today. And what the Editorial Board will not say is what happens the day after 11 million undocumented immigrants are made legal. Would it then argue for deporting anyone who comes without authorization after that? Probably not. In another decade it would just argue for more reform and call anyone opposed to it racist.
We fell for "reform" once. Not a second time.
1. Required employers to attest to the status of their employees.
2. Made it illegal to knowingly hire or recruit undocumented immigrants.
3. Legalized certain seasonal agriculture migrants.
4. Legalized existing undocumented workers (3 million).
Businesses objected to penalties for hiring undocumented workers and the bill was rewritten so they would not be asked to check documents, undercutting the strongest mechanism for reducing the flow of undocumented workers. As a consequence we now have 11 million undocumented workers.
Reform without penalties and checking of documents didn't work in 1986 and it wouldn't work today. And what the Editorial Board will not say is what happens the day after 11 million undocumented immigrants are made legal. Would it then argue for deporting anyone who comes without authorization after that? Probably not. In another decade it would just argue for more reform and call anyone opposed to it racist.
We fell for "reform" once. Not a second time.
15
The GOP's' current predicament shows illustrates what happens when a party panders to special interest groups by ignoring the interests of the majority of its voters. Take abortion for example. Ignoring silly labels like 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice', a rather large portion of the American population feel that abortion should be legal. Only about 29% of voters (Gallup) think that abortion should be illegal. In order acquire that voting block, Republicans have skewed their position out of alignment with base. There are lots of other examples other than abortion like opposition to gay rights, lower taxes for the wealthy, privatization of social security. The list goes on and on.
The problem with this strategy is that GOP voters who care about issues rather than the GOP brand drift away. Some become independents, some join other parties. They do not vote in the GOP primary. Why should they, their old party cares more about the little groups they have cut deals with than they do to their base.
The problem with this strategy is that GOP voters who care about issues rather than the GOP brand drift away. Some become independents, some join other parties. They do not vote in the GOP primary. Why should they, their old party cares more about the little groups they have cut deals with than they do to their base.
Illegal immigrants are being rewarded with all the benefits earned by legal immigrants, without being required to work for anything. This needs to stop. And now Clinton and NY Governor Cuomo want to give free college tuition to all illegal immigrants. That's a slap in the face to all legal immigrants who have been working and paying their own way.
23
Here are some more truths about immigration. There are hundreds of millions - no, billions - of people on this planet who can individually make the case that their lives, and the lives of their children, would be far better were they to immigrate to the United States. But their simply is not room for all or most or even a substantial fraction of them all here. To protect our own people, and to avoid them from being crowded out and displaced in the work force, in schools, in housing, etc., we need to stop them from flowing in. Not because they are bad folks - mostly they are not - but because their presence here leads to more crowding and stresses our environment and our non-elite citizens. Once upon a time, say 1970, when America's population stood at about 200,000,000, elite opinion understood this and a perfectly respectable position was "ZPG" or Zero Population Growth. Today, due to massive immigration both legal and illegal, our population is 320,000,000 and rapidly rising. The value of labor is suppressed, cities are more crowded (at least the ones that still offer jobs), and it will only get worse if we do not reestablish hard borders with respect to the billions of people who want to come here.
I suggest the way forward is that we take in no more people from any country than that country took in from the US the previous year. And yes, we shall still need a wall.
I suggest the way forward is that we take in no more people from any country than that country took in from the US the previous year. And yes, we shall still need a wall.
18
Correct. Why do simple facts like these never make it into the immigration discussion? Name calling is fun and very emotional. It distracts people from seeing what they'd rather not and It doesn't solve anything.
It's time for a fact based discussion on immigration and its longterm effects. Tear jerk discussions aren't moving us forward.
It's time for a fact based discussion on immigration and its longterm effects. Tear jerk discussions aren't moving us forward.
4
Beyond mentioning the trivial fact that it's us liberal types who support things like Planned Parenthood and Republicans who attack them, you may just want to spend a little time looking into the aging of the American population as well as the UN's successful work around the world on pop limitation.
My, you are selling Mr. Khan quite a bit! I suspect his son would have voted Trump, and that his wife will. If he allows her to vote.
8
Except that his son's dead in a pointless war that Republicans started, and Trump's now spent two days insulting the family.
2
Facts don't matter to Trump or his loyal supporters - he just doubles down, tells it like it isn't, and they love him for it.
4
There is a big difference between legal and illegal immigration and how the majority of American citizens feel about both issues. That fact seems lost on the NYT. We are a nation of immigrants and it is our strength but that isn't the same as saying "why have borders". Illegal immigrants are largely unskilled at a time when demand for unskilled labor is low due to technology and outsourcing. So they put pressure on wages at the bottom. Legal immigration should be focused on bringing in people with the skills which are currently needed. We also need laws to punish those who hire illegal aliens either using E-verify or some better system. Until you convince the majority of Americans that we have a way to stop additional illegal immigration going forward you will never get a consensus on legalizing the 11 million who are already here. Even with the Orwellian attempt by the Times and others to change the absolutely correct term illegal alien into undocumented worker.
23
Yet those unskilled jobs still need workers. There is no real means to measure, then decide which jobs need filling and which ones can be left vacant. Americans are not going back to doing their own landscaping, white college males are not begging to build/renew houses, there are not droves of white high school, college girls seeking jobs in nail and hair salons, to do the nails of their mothers and such. Which is the false premise of the entirety of the Trumplodites complaints; legal or illegal immigrants take jobs that we rightful Americans (trans; White Americans) would otherwise take. Its nonsense of the highest order of nonsense. To them I say, "go fill them!" I know several landscapers who need some extra workers to expand their businesses. I know a few masonry contractors with the same needs. The jobs are there, so where are the white-guys who said they'd been displaced? Right! Its work beneath them now.
Does the system need repair? Yes. But the flow has been reversed, yet still the complainers complain. They move onto anyone, even legal immigrants as the real problem. But those jobs left vacant, none of the Trumplodites are rushing to fill them.
They then prose they don't feel safe. And Trump will take the terrorists head-on. Uh, have you been paying attention? But we've been bombing the bejesus out of ISIL, working with allies AND adversaries. How do you define head-on? Another US invasion? Which would mean re-invading Iraq and Afghanistan to provide support.
Does the system need repair? Yes. But the flow has been reversed, yet still the complainers complain. They move onto anyone, even legal immigrants as the real problem. But those jobs left vacant, none of the Trumplodites are rushing to fill them.
They then prose they don't feel safe. And Trump will take the terrorists head-on. Uh, have you been paying attention? But we've been bombing the bejesus out of ISIL, working with allies AND adversaries. How do you define head-on? Another US invasion? Which would mean re-invading Iraq and Afghanistan to provide support.
1
A comprehensive immigration reform must be done as soon as possible. As much as this country embraces diversity, a healthy immigration policies are needed so as to avoid immigration becoming a real divisive factor.
8
There are strong disagreements about immigration policies not only between Democrats and Republicans, but among Democrats as well.
President Clinton will have to make good use of her famous listening skills in order to make sense of this issue and to formulate policies that are as good for ordinary people who are already American citizens as they are for people who want to become Americans.
She will have to be able to distinguish among views that are motivated by legitimate concerns vs. ones that are driven by hysteria or hatred. She will have to figure out how to reform immigration policies in ways that benefit ordinary Americans instead of making the richest 1% even richer.
Fortunately, she has what it takes to develop smart and effective immigration reforms. Donald Trump does not.
President Clinton will have to make good use of her famous listening skills in order to make sense of this issue and to formulate policies that are as good for ordinary people who are already American citizens as they are for people who want to become Americans.
She will have to be able to distinguish among views that are motivated by legitimate concerns vs. ones that are driven by hysteria or hatred. She will have to figure out how to reform immigration policies in ways that benefit ordinary Americans instead of making the richest 1% even richer.
Fortunately, she has what it takes to develop smart and effective immigration reforms. Donald Trump does not.
3
Balloons aside! This holy rendition of Clinton forgets how flawed a candidate she is and how compromised her character has proven to be. This country needs alternatives that are better on this issue and many others. Until we get better - trustworthy - leaders in our country, we won't be able to brag. So guess it'll be best to breath into a paper bag until then.
2
Khizr Khan should contemplate what might have been if Donald Trump’s proposed temporary ban on travel and immigration from countries that export terrorism had been in effect in 2001. The thousands of Americans—including Muslim Americans—who died on Sept. 11, 2001, would still be alive. There would have been no War on Terrorism. There would have been no U.S. invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. Khan’s son Humayun would still be alive.
19
And if America were a highly authoritarian country with extremely tight controls on the movements of citizens and on commerce the Oklahoma City federal building bombing would not have happened.
And what is the next step? Should we also stop traveling? One should always be leary of radical solutions as they can have unintended consequences.
Love watching you guys raise the ante every time you get caught out. Now, we're spozed to ban TRAVEL as well as immigration for a specific religious group, and start going after Saudi Arabia too.
Gonna be a little hard on the Donald, don't you think? Given his business partners and projects in the Mid East?
Oh, almost forgot. Did you notice that if Mr. Khan was precisely correct about you guys? That if you got your way, HE wouldn't have been allowed in this country?
You like counterfactuals, right? harry Turtledove? Okay, here's one for you--Trump bets elected in 1992, and bans Muslims. We go to war in Iraq because Hussein sued him over a business deal--but this time, Captain Khan ain't there.
So all the soldiers he protected die.
Gonna be a little hard on the Donald, don't you think? Given his business partners and projects in the Mid East?
Oh, almost forgot. Did you notice that if Mr. Khan was precisely correct about you guys? That if you got your way, HE wouldn't have been allowed in this country?
You like counterfactuals, right? harry Turtledove? Okay, here's one for you--Trump bets elected in 1992, and bans Muslims. We go to war in Iraq because Hussein sued him over a business deal--but this time, Captain Khan ain't there.
So all the soldiers he protected die.
Here’s another simple fact: In 2000, the ‘unauthorized immigrant population’ was 8.5 million; in 2008, it was 11.6 million. It increased by 3 million under the G.W. Bush administration. That’s Republican.
Since 2008, it has not increased. Not at all. That’s a Democrat administration.
Is the U.S. Census the only group who knows these facts? Dear New York Times, these are simple facts too.
That one-third increase in illegal immigration probably resulted from weakened enforcement of the ban on employers from employing these people; it no doubt resulted in a large population of willing and able workers who would accept lower pay and worse working conditions than those protected by unions.
Since 2008, it has not increased. Not at all. That’s a Democrat administration.
Is the U.S. Census the only group who knows these facts? Dear New York Times, these are simple facts too.
That one-third increase in illegal immigration probably resulted from weakened enforcement of the ban on employers from employing these people; it no doubt resulted in a large population of willing and able workers who would accept lower pay and worse working conditions than those protected by unions.
14
Using parents of lost children to raise the temperature of all in order to bring down a politician of another party adds to this devils brew of name calling. There are thousands, probably millions of persons here who came legally and illegally, stayed, married, have children and lead useful, productive lives. There are also criminal enterprises that span our borders, gangs who help transport and distribute illegal drugs. Profits made here infect the countries south of us and lead to more crime there with still more peaceful citizens wanting to immigrate here for safer places to live.
Yes, it is complex and we have armies of advocates on everyside of these issues agitating for change, in a direction they favor. That clamoring is echoed in these pages to put down one politician and elevate another.
Most of us would rather peace and quiet but recognize that until the battle for power are settled, it isn't likely to happen.
The truth is that we have a broken system of controls in our immigration systems, many benefit from that fact, and the longer it last the harder it will be to fix it.
Please, hammer out the differences and get it all fixed.
Yes, it is complex and we have armies of advocates on everyside of these issues agitating for change, in a direction they favor. That clamoring is echoed in these pages to put down one politician and elevate another.
Most of us would rather peace and quiet but recognize that until the battle for power are settled, it isn't likely to happen.
The truth is that we have a broken system of controls in our immigration systems, many benefit from that fact, and the longer it last the harder it will be to fix it.
Please, hammer out the differences and get it all fixed.
7
Immigration is complex.
I come from people who came here legally, not speaking English, to work the mines in PA, and some who came speaking English with a brogue, probably coming in from Canada - we'd call it "undocumented" today.
They grew families that produced university professors, executives, business owners, lawyers, politicians, pilots - we are a diverse lot.
We blame and demonize the people seeking better lives for illegal immigration - even though they may be the people who create a generation of people like my family. We don't blame the business owners who employ them - nudge nudge, wink wink, sure they have papers - who exploit cheap labor. We don't blame businesses like Disney that outsource American jobs to workers by abusing the H1-B visas, to exploit cheap labor.
We don't have an immigration problem - we have a workers rights and employer problem.
We could enforce employer's verification. We could tax the heck out of H1-B, so that employers are really seeking talent not cheap wages. We could do a lot that demonizes exploitation not people.
People wanting better lives is not the problem. People wanting cheap labor is.
I come from people who came here legally, not speaking English, to work the mines in PA, and some who came speaking English with a brogue, probably coming in from Canada - we'd call it "undocumented" today.
They grew families that produced university professors, executives, business owners, lawyers, politicians, pilots - we are a diverse lot.
We blame and demonize the people seeking better lives for illegal immigration - even though they may be the people who create a generation of people like my family. We don't blame the business owners who employ them - nudge nudge, wink wink, sure they have papers - who exploit cheap labor. We don't blame businesses like Disney that outsource American jobs to workers by abusing the H1-B visas, to exploit cheap labor.
We don't have an immigration problem - we have a workers rights and employer problem.
We could enforce employer's verification. We could tax the heck out of H1-B, so that employers are really seeking talent not cheap wages. We could do a lot that demonizes exploitation not people.
People wanting better lives is not the problem. People wanting cheap labor is.
12
"Simple truth"! That's easy for most people but the operative word is "truth". It doesn't seem to be in the republican lexicon any more now that they've done so well without it.
Evil comes in many forms, be it "radical jihadist Muslims", Hitler, White Supremacists, KKK violent gangs, etc. Wouldn't it be nice if we could ban them all from our shores and only let nice people in?
3
Finally, a piece of actual journalism reporting on facts and statistics. Why is this in the opinion section? NYT, I have been disappointed in you for some time. More work like this please.
Well, what started as an article on immigration policy (finally) turned into a political blind support to Hillary Clinton. I guess this is the best one can expect from the NYT Editorial Board, on Sunday.
While the numbers presented by the polls are quite truthful, the problem rises when you compare this one with the political ones, and you find out that only an hopeful, very hopeful this turn, 58% of Americans is going to vote.
So, rescaling the polls to this effective reality turns out that US is indeed divided, politically, on immigration policy.
And that points directly to the clever snap of mr. Obama at the democratic convention, "don't boo- vote"!
I don't agree with the fancy description of mr. Obama's immigration policy, of course.
First of all, he took office at the start of the big Recession. it was only natural that people were looking for better economic condition, even more so if they were living in countries with a feeble economy, like the center-americans ones. This explains the boost in recent deportation numbers.
On the policy side, mr. Obama acted with different approaches, lending a hand to child protection (DACA), while temporarely protecting residential immigrants with executive orders (rebuked in effect by SCOTUS).
Hillary Clinton has offered to use the same executive actions, again to no avail (unless Kennedy'll join), and an hard stance on incoming immigrant guatemalean children, nothing new and nothing better ( except than what mr. Trump proposes).
While the numbers presented by the polls are quite truthful, the problem rises when you compare this one with the political ones, and you find out that only an hopeful, very hopeful this turn, 58% of Americans is going to vote.
So, rescaling the polls to this effective reality turns out that US is indeed divided, politically, on immigration policy.
And that points directly to the clever snap of mr. Obama at the democratic convention, "don't boo- vote"!
I don't agree with the fancy description of mr. Obama's immigration policy, of course.
First of all, he took office at the start of the big Recession. it was only natural that people were looking for better economic condition, even more so if they were living in countries with a feeble economy, like the center-americans ones. This explains the boost in recent deportation numbers.
On the policy side, mr. Obama acted with different approaches, lending a hand to child protection (DACA), while temporarely protecting residential immigrants with executive orders (rebuked in effect by SCOTUS).
Hillary Clinton has offered to use the same executive actions, again to no avail (unless Kennedy'll join), and an hard stance on incoming immigrant guatemalean children, nothing new and nothing better ( except than what mr. Trump proposes).
4
The article came out strongly in favor of sanity and reality, which is likely why you think it's anti-Trump.
Trump read the Constitution? Are you kidding? He doesn't read anything unless it's a profile of himself. Then he takes umbrage at the writer, demands a retraction, and sues.
As far as immigration and providing a path to citizenship to those here illegally, for the most part these people work hard, I see them all over, always working. I propose we keep the hardworking Mexicans and Central Americans and export another group of about 40 million Americans who can't seem to be bothered to work and who have been living off the rest of us since around 1860.
As far as immigration and providing a path to citizenship to those here illegally, for the most part these people work hard, I see them all over, always working. I propose we keep the hardworking Mexicans and Central Americans and export another group of about 40 million Americans who can't seem to be bothered to work and who have been living off the rest of us since around 1860.
3
Trump is always sowing seeds of discontent. He's a salesman who has to make people feel more unhappy about what they've got so they'll buy what he wants to sell them and rip them off. If the PRC is right, a large majority don't view immigrants as enemies. But there are still a lot of Americans who scapegoat immigrants because they need to excuse themselves for giving up. Fox News made a fortune with that approach. The other horror is that the Red States are economic and social disasters because they elect disastrous politicians who implement disastrous policies. The better educated Blue States don't suffer from the need to make the same mistakes over and over again and then blame somebody else. Trump supporters seem wholly incapable of accepting responsibility for their actions and inept at educating themselves on the issues. And they don't seem to like taking instruction from the wise, like Mr. Khan.
8
There are millions of Trump supporters in the True Blue states of New York and California. What do you make of that?
3
Here are a few of my "simple truths" about immigration.
First of all, the way to stop radical Islamic terrorism is not to bar all Muslims from the US, any more than the way to solve gun violence is to take guns away from everyone who owns one. Broad-brush "solutions" just penalize the 99.9% of Muslims (or gun owners) who are doing nothing wrong.
However odious and reprehensible Mr. Trump's comments about Mexican immigrants are, he is right about one thing. They are here to rob Americans of jobs. Period. End of story. And there are 11 million of them who have done just that. At the Democratic Convention, I would have liked to see a speech by an American worker who lost his job because of illegal immigration and its evil stepsisters NAFTA and the other trade deals (otherwise known as job giveaways). Instead, we were encouraged to feel sorry for illegals. Sending millions of manufacturing jobs out of the US (and letting laid-off US workers pay the price) didn't even work. Now unemployed Mexicans just sneak across the border and take whatever jobs are left HERE. And then ask for our sympathy. Or demand their "rights." Unbelievable.
We need E-Verify NOW. We have needed it for years and years and years. Why don't the candidates ever mention E-verify? Gosh, I wonder...
First of all, the way to stop radical Islamic terrorism is not to bar all Muslims from the US, any more than the way to solve gun violence is to take guns away from everyone who owns one. Broad-brush "solutions" just penalize the 99.9% of Muslims (or gun owners) who are doing nothing wrong.
However odious and reprehensible Mr. Trump's comments about Mexican immigrants are, he is right about one thing. They are here to rob Americans of jobs. Period. End of story. And there are 11 million of them who have done just that. At the Democratic Convention, I would have liked to see a speech by an American worker who lost his job because of illegal immigration and its evil stepsisters NAFTA and the other trade deals (otherwise known as job giveaways). Instead, we were encouraged to feel sorry for illegals. Sending millions of manufacturing jobs out of the US (and letting laid-off US workers pay the price) didn't even work. Now unemployed Mexicans just sneak across the border and take whatever jobs are left HERE. And then ask for our sympathy. Or demand their "rights." Unbelievable.
We need E-Verify NOW. We have needed it for years and years and years. Why don't the candidates ever mention E-verify? Gosh, I wonder...
91
I adore the way you condemned painting with a broad brush and then hauled out a paint roller.
1
Could it be that many of them are doing jobs that Americans refuse to do?
2
Ever watch "How it's made" on the Science Channel? From toothpicks to tuna sandwiches, machines have replaced people in factories. Anyone estimated how many manufacturing jobs were lost to automation?
As for service jobs, have you withdrawn money lately? Or checked yourself out at Home Depot and CVS recently? Seems there's lots of job-robbing having nothing to do with immigrants.
As for service jobs, have you withdrawn money lately? Or checked yourself out at Home Depot and CVS recently? Seems there's lots of job-robbing having nothing to do with immigrants.
4
Let us eradicate our borders (oops, already done that). Let anyone stroll into our country without any screening. (oops, already done that). Let we, the taxpayer, subsidize free education, housing and schooling for averyone in the world that makes it here. (oops, already done that). Let a million unvetted Syrians into our country and see what happens. (oop, the dems want to do that). NYT can't seem to grasp there is a difference between LEGAL immigration and ILLEGAL entry.
18
How does a process of vetting Syrian refugees that takes a year or so equate to "unvetted"?
How are so many comments on a fact-checking editorial completely devoid of facts? The internet at our fingertips, and yet so many people are incapable of doing basic research.
How are so many comments on a fact-checking editorial completely devoid of facts? The internet at our fingertips, and yet so many people are incapable of doing basic research.
I think you have missed some key information. It takes 6 months or more of background checking before a Syrian refugee can get into this country. Only a very small number have made it in while many other countries, like Canada, have screened families to their satisfaction. This is legal immigration.
Also, I don't know what border we've eradicated. We have planes, armed guards, and walls. It doesn't always stop the drug running between Canada or the job seeking individual from Mexico but neither will an incredibly expensive wall.
How about we work to fix the problems of people who've been here most of their lives -- that's a sticky issue. And then, we pivot and put the responsibility directly on those who deserve it: the business owners. They should be severely fined for using undocumented labor and if a country like Microsoft doesn't have people trained to do certain jobs, instead of importing them (and often paying them less than Americans) they should be required to set up education programs in tandem with the schools to train people for the future instead of importing cheap engineers who are too terrified to ask for commiserate pay or a pension or insurance.
Also, I don't know what border we've eradicated. We have planes, armed guards, and walls. It doesn't always stop the drug running between Canada or the job seeking individual from Mexico but neither will an incredibly expensive wall.
How about we work to fix the problems of people who've been here most of their lives -- that's a sticky issue. And then, we pivot and put the responsibility directly on those who deserve it: the business owners. They should be severely fined for using undocumented labor and if a country like Microsoft doesn't have people trained to do certain jobs, instead of importing them (and often paying them less than Americans) they should be required to set up education programs in tandem with the schools to train people for the future instead of importing cheap engineers who are too terrified to ask for commiserate pay or a pension or insurance.
It is unfortunate all the talk about immigration is mainly about illegal immigration. There are people who come here legally and some of their wait times exceed 12-14 years just for permanent residency. Obama wanted to citizenship in 10 years for illegals. However ,no one including the left, care about the issues in legal migration as they are not a strong vote bank like the hispanics. Again, everything boils down to politics inspire of all the talk about compassion and what not when it comes to migration.
8
This editorial doesn't make a clear enough distinction between legal and illegal immigration. Mr. Trump and the vast majority of Americans, Republicans included, support legal immigration. The problem is legal and illegal immigration are lumped together without a clear distinction. Anyone opposed to illegal immigration is smeared as a racist and a xenophobe. I believe this semantic blurring is intentional since there is not a good argument in support of illegal immigration.
I support enforcing existing immigration laws that our lawmakers created. Any one who wants to come here should apply and go through the legal immigration process. Anyone who doesn't is out. It's not complicated. Our elected politicians need to enforce the laws they created. Businesses need to stop hiring and exploiting illegal immigrants.
I support enforcing existing immigration laws that our lawmakers created. Any one who wants to come here should apply and go through the legal immigration process. Anyone who doesn't is out. It's not complicated. Our elected politicians need to enforce the laws they created. Businesses need to stop hiring and exploiting illegal immigrants.
24
Did the Board not mean "illegal" immigration? The NYT and most of the media, for some reason when discussing immigration, fail to specify "legal" or "illegal" immigration. Our giant problem lies with "illegal immigration". Our legal immigration system, though it is in need of streamlining and modernizing, is still going strong after more than a hundred years. We still admit more than a million legal immigrants every year: more than any other country. My ancestors, and probably the ancestors of the Editorial Board, came to America using the "legal" system: they took their turn and obeyed the immigration laws. The Board should correct this editorial and tell America which immigrant they are writing about - legal or illegal. Where do the problems lie? With which group of immigrants?
16
Trump is in a total war against political correctness the battle is not being fought over "American values."
It's because of political correctness that this man Khan could take center stage and make an emotional plea with all sorts of inflammatory, distorted interpretations of Trumps ideas.
The NY Times has two headlines on the front web page now...the first when clicked brings up the story with the second:
Trump Belittles Muslim Family of Slain Soldier, Drawing Ire
Donald Trump Criticizes Muslim Family of Slain U.S. Soldier, Drawing Ire
I don't agree that Trump "belittled" this family I think Trump's comments to Stephanopolus in his ABC interview were reasonable in context.
It's because of political correctness that this man Khan could take center stage and make an emotional plea with all sorts of inflammatory, distorted interpretations of Trumps ideas.
The NY Times has two headlines on the front web page now...the first when clicked brings up the story with the second:
Trump Belittles Muslim Family of Slain Soldier, Drawing Ire
Donald Trump Criticizes Muslim Family of Slain U.S. Soldier, Drawing Ire
I don't agree that Trump "belittled" this family I think Trump's comments to Stephanopolus in his ABC interview were reasonable in context.
11
And I recognize that unreason, racism and hatred are this country's worst enemies, so I guess we're even.
That's "Mr. Khan," to you, buster. Where I grew up, American kids learned some manners.
That's "Mr. Khan," to you, buster. Where I grew up, American kids learned some manners.
1
Hillary Clinton will put things right?
From Gary Johnson's website:
"Having served as Governor of a border state, Gary Johnson understands immigration. He understands that a robust flow of labor, regulated not by politics, but by the marketplace, is essential.
He understands that a bigger fence will only produce taller ladders and deeper tunnels, and that the flow of illegal immigrants across the border is not a consequence of too little security, but rather a legal immigration system that simply doesn’t work. Militarizing the border, bigger fences, and other punitive measures espoused by too many politicians are all simplistic “solutions” to a problem caused by artificial quotas, bureaucratic incompetence and the shameful failure of Congress to actually put in place an immigration system that matches reality.
Governor Johnson has long advocated a simplified and secure system of work visas by which willing workers and willing employers can meet in a robust labor marketplace efficiently and economically. Aspiring immigrants would undergo a background check, pay taxes and provide proof of employment.
Making it simpler and efficient to enter the U.S. legally will provide the greatest security possible, allowing law enforcement to focus its time and resources on the criminals and bad actors who are, in reality, a relatively small portion of those who are today entering the country illegally."
From Gary Johnson's website:
"Having served as Governor of a border state, Gary Johnson understands immigration. He understands that a robust flow of labor, regulated not by politics, but by the marketplace, is essential.
He understands that a bigger fence will only produce taller ladders and deeper tunnels, and that the flow of illegal immigrants across the border is not a consequence of too little security, but rather a legal immigration system that simply doesn’t work. Militarizing the border, bigger fences, and other punitive measures espoused by too many politicians are all simplistic “solutions” to a problem caused by artificial quotas, bureaucratic incompetence and the shameful failure of Congress to actually put in place an immigration system that matches reality.
Governor Johnson has long advocated a simplified and secure system of work visas by which willing workers and willing employers can meet in a robust labor marketplace efficiently and economically. Aspiring immigrants would undergo a background check, pay taxes and provide proof of employment.
Making it simpler and efficient to enter the U.S. legally will provide the greatest security possible, allowing law enforcement to focus its time and resources on the criminals and bad actors who are, in reality, a relatively small portion of those who are today entering the country illegally."
1
A few "simple truths" the Editorial Board loves to ignore. We are a sovereign nation, which means, like any other, we are legally and morally permitted to decide for ourselves who gets to enter, visit, work in, live in and remain within our borders. That simple fact is not xenophobic or racist in and of itself. Borders are necessary to simply define a nation and its collective culture, security and well-being. Borders are not passe or wrong. We have no obligation to any foreigner nor their families that is contrary to our interests.
The decision on entry standards is not up to those who enter, but to us, however much they may desire it. 2016 is not 1816 or 1916...saying we are a "nation of immigrants" is both correct and irrelevant. We don't use the same standards on many things today that we did a century or more ago. Why should immigration law (note, law, not policy) be any different and not reflect current realities? Our national needs and circumstances are different today.
The phrase "sensible immigration reform" is usually a smokescreen referring to a specific set of lax desires pushed by the Board and others. It represents a political stance, not "common sense" any more than a lot of other laws. Immediately trotting out accusations of racism, that whites fear this or that (for no one "of color" would have any objection to illegal immigration, right?), juvenile name calling ("Drumpf") or the tiresome xenophobia line is offensive and more often than not incorrect.
The decision on entry standards is not up to those who enter, but to us, however much they may desire it. 2016 is not 1816 or 1916...saying we are a "nation of immigrants" is both correct and irrelevant. We don't use the same standards on many things today that we did a century or more ago. Why should immigration law (note, law, not policy) be any different and not reflect current realities? Our national needs and circumstances are different today.
The phrase "sensible immigration reform" is usually a smokescreen referring to a specific set of lax desires pushed by the Board and others. It represents a political stance, not "common sense" any more than a lot of other laws. Immediately trotting out accusations of racism, that whites fear this or that (for no one "of color" would have any objection to illegal immigration, right?), juvenile name calling ("Drumpf") or the tiresome xenophobia line is offensive and more often than not incorrect.
23
A friend of mine who is a yellow dog democrat was fully all in with the democrats view of everyone is welcome into the country especially undocumented Hispanics. Well, as I have always said democrats or otherwise will always have a sunshine and roses world view until reality smacks them in the face. My friend was hit and run by an illegal, and now she has to pay for her own hospital expenses and getting her care repaired through her insurances, all of which is going to cost her thousands of dollars and weeks if not months to do. She is now voting for Trump. Until democrats who live in their ivory towers have a real life experience like my friend they will continue to tow the party line of open borders.
15
If it wasn't unto the immigrants Mr. Trump wouldn't have a wife (wives??). He has proven that he is sadistic and narcissistic beyond the DSM-5 criteria. The silence of the Republicans is a proof that they are racist and mindless with no ability to think.
3
"A Few. Simple Truths."
1. Laws matter.
2. Legal immigration strengthens the country but illegal immigration undermines it.
3. Obama and Congress are responsible for the failure of immigration reform
4. Smearing those who want existing laws enforced as "anti-immigrant" is purposely disingenuous
1. Laws matter.
2. Legal immigration strengthens the country but illegal immigration undermines it.
3. Obama and Congress are responsible for the failure of immigration reform
4. Smearing those who want existing laws enforced as "anti-immigrant" is purposely disingenuous
31
Earlier a friend and I had an animated exchange of our latest news, our thoughts and our plans for the future. We spoke of the Conventions. She asked if I had watched Mr. Khizr Kan address the Nation, a true American, and an honorable family, a son given for America.
'He offered to give Trump a copy of the Constitution'. I know, was my reply, but Trump would not recognize a Muslim if he fell over one, and we can go on at length, but it is not worth our time because he is mad. He would probably think you were from the South.
We never would have thought this State of Affairs could take place ten years ago, when we worked together in the humanitarian community. A strong friendship, one which continues to grow, and as for this man Trump, he is Anti-American to my mind. Are my Countrymen and women going to vote for this political anomaly because of the Great Recession? It is possible. But America will never be the same and it will never heal, the Constitution tarnished, and a sense of trust among the People gone forever.
'He offered to give Trump a copy of the Constitution'. I know, was my reply, but Trump would not recognize a Muslim if he fell over one, and we can go on at length, but it is not worth our time because he is mad. He would probably think you were from the South.
We never would have thought this State of Affairs could take place ten years ago, when we worked together in the humanitarian community. A strong friendship, one which continues to grow, and as for this man Trump, he is Anti-American to my mind. Are my Countrymen and women going to vote for this political anomaly because of the Great Recession? It is possible. But America will never be the same and it will never heal, the Constitution tarnished, and a sense of trust among the People gone forever.
3
So many spurious relationships among the pro-illegal immigration thoughts. The NY Times still refuses to differentiate between illegal and legal, an expedient non-connection. You write that the "immigration" for the last 20 years is "matched" to a decrease in crime generally in the US. Are you implying that more "immigration" would lower the crime rate further? Kate Steinle's parents wouldn't agree nor would those of the Orlando victims or San Bernardino's. Would they have helped prevent the cop shootings in Dallas, Baton Rouge, Kansas City and San Diego? One idea I will take from your shotgun approach: 13% of blacks favor a Trump wall, but more dramatic is 16% of Hispanics would do so.
That sounds like bridge to me. A bridge to realism.
That sounds like bridge to me. A bridge to realism.
19
As an immigrant and naturalized citizen who has been here for over 4 decades, I abhor the way immigrants are portrayed by the GOP. However, I think it is important that the nation gain control of its borders. Otherwise, demagogues like Trump will use it as a weapon to unfairly portray immigrants, legal or not, as a “problem” to be dealt with.
Republicans never bring their patron saint Reagan when discussing immigration. But back in 1986, Ronald Reagan signed a sweeping immigration reform bill into law. It was sold as a crackdown on illegal immigration that would provide tighter security at the southern border and employers were supposed to face strict penalties for hiring undocumented employees. The law granted amnesty to almost 3 million illegal immigrants, but the strict sanctions on employers were stripped out of the bill for passage, essentially making it not a “crackdown” but meaningless.
The law did require legal immigrants and citizen to show the employers our “papers” whenever we applied for a new job but did not do much to curtail illegal immigration such that now amnesty for about 12 million illegal immigrants is now being considered, 4 times as much as granted by the Reagan bill.
So it is time to ask: when does this exercise in amnesty stop and when does the country gain control of its borders?
Republicans never bring their patron saint Reagan when discussing immigration. But back in 1986, Ronald Reagan signed a sweeping immigration reform bill into law. It was sold as a crackdown on illegal immigration that would provide tighter security at the southern border and employers were supposed to face strict penalties for hiring undocumented employees. The law granted amnesty to almost 3 million illegal immigrants, but the strict sanctions on employers were stripped out of the bill for passage, essentially making it not a “crackdown” but meaningless.
The law did require legal immigrants and citizen to show the employers our “papers” whenever we applied for a new job but did not do much to curtail illegal immigration such that now amnesty for about 12 million illegal immigrants is now being considered, 4 times as much as granted by the Reagan bill.
So it is time to ask: when does this exercise in amnesty stop and when does the country gain control of its borders?
19
I thought Reagan gave 5 million amnesty plus many people here never came forward to apply for amnesty in NY; they just stayed anyway.
1
Poll research are simple facts?
In 1995 Congress set our annual immigration quota at 675,000, certain populations can be declared refugees, and are exempt. Let's call it 1 million per year.
The US population in 1995 was 266 million, in 2015 it was 319 million, 52 million higher. The birthrate during those 20 years, including immigrants was between 1.9 to 1.98, well below the replacement rate of 2.1. Besides the legal immigrants, an entire country the size of Canada moved here, within the past 20 years, Those are facts.
Is it sustainable? Healthcare, housing, tax credits and transfer payments. We now have a sub 3% growth economy, and fewer people paying taxes.
The Obama administration changed the metric on deportations long ago, a turn around at the border is counted as a deportation.
The progressives and the NYT live in a fantasy world. They want open borders, and a one party system. E-verify for employers and landlords is an electronic wall, but Harry Reid refused to bring it up for a vote.
Trump is correct when he identifies immigration as the systemic issue going forward.
In 1995 Congress set our annual immigration quota at 675,000, certain populations can be declared refugees, and are exempt. Let's call it 1 million per year.
The US population in 1995 was 266 million, in 2015 it was 319 million, 52 million higher. The birthrate during those 20 years, including immigrants was between 1.9 to 1.98, well below the replacement rate of 2.1. Besides the legal immigrants, an entire country the size of Canada moved here, within the past 20 years, Those are facts.
Is it sustainable? Healthcare, housing, tax credits and transfer payments. We now have a sub 3% growth economy, and fewer people paying taxes.
The Obama administration changed the metric on deportations long ago, a turn around at the border is counted as a deportation.
The progressives and the NYT live in a fantasy world. They want open borders, and a one party system. E-verify for employers and landlords is an electronic wall, but Harry Reid refused to bring it up for a vote.
Trump is correct when he identifies immigration as the systemic issue going forward.
30
Wow, from your statistics it seems immigration is saving us from the fate of Europe and China, where low birth rates and an aging work force actually are beginning to have disastrous economic consequences and represent a demonstrably unsustainable equation.
I notice you didn't include the statistic about what exactly is the limit of population in the U.S. for economic stability, or the fact that since the crash more undocumented immigrants have left our country than entered it.
As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
I notice you didn't include the statistic about what exactly is the limit of population in the U.S. for economic stability, or the fact that since the crash more undocumented immigrants have left our country than entered it.
As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
1
Actually, I think the basic issue going forward is the way that Americans cN't do simple math.
Let's assume that your "one million a year," number is accurate for legal immigrants. Then let's assume that you're right about this starting in 1995, and about a birthrate that's a smosh under 2.0.
One million times 20 is 20 million.
Add the birthrate numbers over 20 years.
Sorry, but your scare number of 52 mil looks like pretty much what you'd expect.
Let's assume that your "one million a year," number is accurate for legal immigrants. Then let's assume that you're right about this starting in 1995, and about a birthrate that's a smosh under 2.0.
One million times 20 is 20 million.
Add the birthrate numbers over 20 years.
Sorry, but your scare number of 52 mil looks like pretty much what you'd expect.
1
Donald Trump says that he read the Constitution. However his previous comments indicating that he approves of Articles 1, 2, 9, and 12 (in response to a question about Article 2, which desicusses the Executive Branch) makes clear that he has NO CLUE (in the words of Vice President Biden).
He has no sense of how the government works (other than local government control of building permits, and tax abatements).
He is so totally unfit to serve in any elective office that it boggles the mind that the late REPUBLICAN PARTY (now the Cult of Trump) allowed him to defeat people who do understand how the government works.
Now it is up to HRC to emasculate him in public. I can't wait to watch the three Presidential debates.
He has no sense of how the government works (other than local government control of building permits, and tax abatements).
He is so totally unfit to serve in any elective office that it boggles the mind that the late REPUBLICAN PARTY (now the Cult of Trump) allowed him to defeat people who do understand how the government works.
Now it is up to HRC to emasculate him in public. I can't wait to watch the three Presidential debates.
2
"Immigration" will be before us week-by-week until November and in every imaginable forum. But "immigration" as the key word under which efforts to discuss are presented is far too broad. So NYT, give us a framework.
Tell us in a fact box about the major paths to the US that may lead to citizenship. Then give us one story for each. You might start with the Khizr and Gazalah Khan family. Mr. Khan came to Harvard as a Master's student, so that is one path, one path, one story.
I have a Somali Bantu friend, Abdi, in Winooski, Vermont, who came, I believe, via a quite different path created by the U.S.State Department to bring a large number of people of that ethnicity to the US because they faced discrimination in Somalia. That was another path, another story.
Right now, 100 Syrians being brought to Rutland, Vermont via yet another path are the subject of intense discussion as presented by VPR.net. Tell us about their path and their story.
Will you?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
Tell us in a fact box about the major paths to the US that may lead to citizenship. Then give us one story for each. You might start with the Khizr and Gazalah Khan family. Mr. Khan came to Harvard as a Master's student, so that is one path, one path, one story.
I have a Somali Bantu friend, Abdi, in Winooski, Vermont, who came, I believe, via a quite different path created by the U.S.State Department to bring a large number of people of that ethnicity to the US because they faced discrimination in Somalia. That was another path, another story.
Right now, 100 Syrians being brought to Rutland, Vermont via yet another path are the subject of intense discussion as presented by VPR.net. Tell us about their path and their story.
Will you?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
4
You know, it's pretty easy to jump on the INS website and get answers to your not-really-questions.
2
This editorial is filled with so many lies, half-truths and spin it would take a long time to correct. So I'll just make one correction: Obama has not departed more illegals than previous presidents, he changed the way we count them. NYT and every other liberal media outlet trying to turn this country into a balkanized hellhole quotes Pew statistics. Pews poll questions are totally skewed, designed to get a certain result. Here's all you need to know about American's opinion of immigration: Donald Trump is running neck-and-neck with Hillary Clinton despite all the crazy things he says and that he is obviously unfit to hold the presidency. And that is 100 percent because Americans know that the one promise he might keep is to curb immigration.
22
I adore the way you guys make up a conspiracy whenever you don't like the facts.
Source, please. Give us some evidence. No, Rush's latest rant is not evidence.
Source, please. Give us some evidence. No, Rush's latest rant is not evidence.
Not true that Donald Trump has sacrificed nothing. In his sociopathic response to Mr. and Mrs. Kahn, Trump sacrificed any credibility he may have had. In his invitation to Putin to hack the DNC and influence the US presidential election, he sacrificed any semblance of patriotism. In his refusal to display his tax returns, he sacrificed any claims to paying his fair share of taxes, much less making charitable contributions before the primaries. In promising to ban all Muslim immigrants, students and tourists from entering the US, he sacrificed any claim to have read and understood the Constitution. Let's give him credit where credit is due!
6
Mark, I am sure you did not intend this but Kahn is a Jewish name and Khan is a Muslim name.
The difficulty with Humayun Khan, the son who died is that it is Bush and Cheney AND Hillary Clinton who sent him to his death.
It takes nerve for Hillary to bring out Mr. Khan whose son's death she caused with her vote. But the media will side with her and bash Trump whose only fault in this case is a possible insensitivity.
With the media pulling so hard against Trump, how can we possibly have a fair election? Not that Trump does not have faults, he is crude and narcissistic. But some of his message is true. The US IS interfering too much in other countries, and Humayun Khan's death was part of this pattern of interference.
But Hillary and the media keep the focus on Trump's crudeness and the question of WHY Humayun Khan died is not going to be discussed here at the NYT (which also supported the Iraq war).
The difficulty with Humayun Khan, the son who died is that it is Bush and Cheney AND Hillary Clinton who sent him to his death.
It takes nerve for Hillary to bring out Mr. Khan whose son's death she caused with her vote. But the media will side with her and bash Trump whose only fault in this case is a possible insensitivity.
With the media pulling so hard against Trump, how can we possibly have a fair election? Not that Trump does not have faults, he is crude and narcissistic. But some of his message is true. The US IS interfering too much in other countries, and Humayun Khan's death was part of this pattern of interference.
But Hillary and the media keep the focus on Trump's crudeness and the question of WHY Humayun Khan died is not going to be discussed here at the NYT (which also supported the Iraq war).
2
Until all borders in the world are open, borders will exist to prevent goods and people from entering countries. If you're going to do something, do it well.
Functioning borders that can not be informally circumvented will not prevent people from Latin America from migrating to the US. It will just put them on an equal footing with, say, Ethiopians, who have to get a visa and an airline ticket to come here.
Functioning borders that can not be informally circumvented will not prevent people from Latin America from migrating to the US. It will just put them on an equal footing with, say, Ethiopians, who have to get a visa and an airline ticket to come here.
5
Latinos who fail to learn English or graduate from high school will never be on equal footing with anyone here.
4
It's a funny play: the poor immigrating are being exploited by those who are rich or trying to get rich, these same persons then start to to lament about immigration and are planning to build "a wall".
Such a behavior is called crazy or "nuts" here in Europe. Do Americans at any time consider how they are being looked at on the Old Continent?
Such a behavior is called crazy or "nuts" here in Europe. Do Americans at any time consider how they are being looked at on the Old Continent?
1
No. Cologne. Nuff said.
3
"One is that the country is divided over immigration, but not nearly as much as Mr. Trump claims." That depends on how questions about immigrants and immigration in general are framed. Then again - how much do Americans completely understand the level of immigration which had occurred over the past decades and its full cost - taxpayer borne - and effects on housing, health care, education, infrastructure, crime and general well-being. The fact is there has never been a full accounting of immigration's impact which takes into its calculation the extraordinary level of both legal and illegal immigration which has occurred.
As an immigrant nation Americans are predisposed to accept new arrivals. That "good" feeling has been usurped by business and political leaders to the point of essentially changing the face of America. So much immigration which has been allowed that multi-culti has squashed the "melting pot." To those who grew up in the 70's America is nearly unrecognizable. Why is that a good thing? Why is America better for the vast cultural and political changes these have brought upon its resident citizens? When is immigration ever controlled with the long view in mind?
Immigration is a bit like salt. Some brings out the underlying flavors and taste for a better dish. Too much and one gags; unfortunately that's where America is with immigration and the Democrats simply don't care.
As an immigrant nation Americans are predisposed to accept new arrivals. That "good" feeling has been usurped by business and political leaders to the point of essentially changing the face of America. So much immigration which has been allowed that multi-culti has squashed the "melting pot." To those who grew up in the 70's America is nearly unrecognizable. Why is that a good thing? Why is America better for the vast cultural and political changes these have brought upon its resident citizens? When is immigration ever controlled with the long view in mind?
Immigration is a bit like salt. Some brings out the underlying flavors and taste for a better dish. Too much and one gags; unfortunately that's where America is with immigration and the Democrats simply don't care.
25
Likewise, Canada. Similar issues exist here. And anyone who challenges loss of
culture (not to mention housing affordability) runs the grave risk of "racist"--just as in the States. BTW--I am apolitical and just stating a fact, not an advocacy position.
culture (not to mention housing affordability) runs the grave risk of "racist"--just as in the States. BTW--I am apolitical and just stating a fact, not an advocacy position.
2
OK, so why does the Republican party make immigration reform impossible? Maybe because in their primaries a very motivated minority will reject candidates with liberal views on immigration.
Politicians do like to keep their jobs, and if you happen to be a Republican, supporting immigration reform may well cost you yours. Low skilled workers also value their jobs highly. For them, the reality is that the more people who compete for their jobs the harder they will be to keep and the less they will be paid.
It is all about incentives in the end. If your job is secure you can be generous, if not, you are much more receptive to any idea that might provide security. The root of tribalism and racism is really about wanting to get "your share".
If we find ways to increase the sense of security (and salaries) for low paid workers in this country, their attitudes toward immigrants would likely change. Not long ago, union contracts were a major source for this kind of security. A person with a good salary and pension plan is likely to be more generous in spirit.
Politicians do like to keep their jobs, and if you happen to be a Republican, supporting immigration reform may well cost you yours. Low skilled workers also value their jobs highly. For them, the reality is that the more people who compete for their jobs the harder they will be to keep and the less they will be paid.
It is all about incentives in the end. If your job is secure you can be generous, if not, you are much more receptive to any idea that might provide security. The root of tribalism and racism is really about wanting to get "your share".
If we find ways to increase the sense of security (and salaries) for low paid workers in this country, their attitudes toward immigrants would likely change. Not long ago, union contracts were a major source for this kind of security. A person with a good salary and pension plan is likely to be more generous in spirit.
4
As long as the Republican party panders to it's base which is full of totally ignorant and mostly uneducated or under educated, they'll behave in a totally prejudiced way as far as immigration is concerned.
The kind of rhetoric that they fueled after Obama's election helped them a lot in capturing the congress only because most of the minorities do not pay much attention to the midterm elections. It's only the Rural and quite a number of urban Racist White voters who mostly vote the Republicans in the midterms.
But come November this year as in every four years, the tide will be totally turned with millions of the Black families and also the millions of immigrants that include a huge chunk of South American or Latino voters who'll change the entire directions of the Presidential contest.
And although the R.N.C. was attempting to change the direction after two losses to Obama but then the midterm elections came in between .
And they had to resort to their old tactic of immigrant bashing,talking about food stamps and thus pointing towards Obama, their boogeyman's Black people ( not telling the truth that there are quite a number of White families who're dependent on food stamps too).
So it's a really a very vicious cycle where this Lincoln's party falls into and can never come out , no matter how much they try to.
Their core supporters take them back into the abyss again and again making Bill Clinton's prediction"There'll be no Republican President for 30 years",ring true.
The kind of rhetoric that they fueled after Obama's election helped them a lot in capturing the congress only because most of the minorities do not pay much attention to the midterm elections. It's only the Rural and quite a number of urban Racist White voters who mostly vote the Republicans in the midterms.
But come November this year as in every four years, the tide will be totally turned with millions of the Black families and also the millions of immigrants that include a huge chunk of South American or Latino voters who'll change the entire directions of the Presidential contest.
And although the R.N.C. was attempting to change the direction after two losses to Obama but then the midterm elections came in between .
And they had to resort to their old tactic of immigrant bashing,talking about food stamps and thus pointing towards Obama, their boogeyman's Black people ( not telling the truth that there are quite a number of White families who're dependent on food stamps too).
So it's a really a very vicious cycle where this Lincoln's party falls into and can never come out , no matter how much they try to.
Their core supporters take them back into the abyss again and again making Bill Clinton's prediction"There'll be no Republican President for 30 years",ring true.
1
Who is more "uneducated"? Those with little formal education or those with degrees who pretend to know everything but are swayed by and "learn" their "facts" from politicians, TV and social media? Having more education, however one defines that, does not render one prejudiced or ignorant of the world or decency. That is an obscene conceit.
Clinton is republican enough, thanks.
1
However one may feel sympathy for the Khans it is fact that Mr. Khan opened himself to criticism by turning his speech describing his son's and his parent's deep sacrifice into an overt political attack. He crossed a line which an American citizen born here and educated from 1st grade on intuitively understands but as an immigrant he doesn't. He may not appreciate that the argument on immigration is beyond the Constitution - it is at this point completely political. Well - even the Constitution is political and completely subject to whichever party controls the Supreme Court.
When it comes right down to the essential point the Court - and the Constitution - is what is at stake in this election. It's what enables Democrat voters and Democrat leadership to ignore or overlook the vast violable of their candidate and vote for her anyway. Similar for Trump supporters except the GOP leadership hasn't gotten the message. He stinks - so what. She stinks more.
When it comes right down to the essential point the Court - and the Constitution - is what is at stake in this election. It's what enables Democrat voters and Democrat leadership to ignore or overlook the vast violable of their candidate and vote for her anyway. Similar for Trump supporters except the GOP leadership hasn't gotten the message. He stinks - so what. She stinks more.
15
I listened to his speech, I didn't think he was connecting immigration to the Constitution but they were two separate points. Also, I'm not sure what line you think he crossed? Also, in what US schools do students start learning about the Constitution in the first grade?
Let's see Hillary, community service, law school, public service, First Lady, Senator, Secy of State.
As for Trump, he inherited billions and has shown little successful business acumen and would have made more money just investing his inheritance in an index fund.
Trump has no sense of the rule of law and identifies more with Putin while praising Sadam Hussein.
Let's see Hillary, community service, law school, public service, First Lady, Senator, Secy of State.
As for Trump, he inherited billions and has shown little successful business acumen and would have made more money just investing his inheritance in an index fund.
Trump has no sense of the rule of law and identifies more with Putin while praising Sadam Hussein.
1
Some people keep making it about immigration, and, even then more objectionably, about skin tone. Who is the author to assert it is "right" to "protect millions of (illegal) immigrants from deportation?" I don't think anyone objects to legal, orderly, documented immigration. What is objectionable is illegal immigration and the failure to stop it. So tired of pointing that out that difference over and over. Mr and Mrs Kahn gave a powerful message, one I had been waiting to hear from American Muslims. I grieve for them in the loss of their beautiful son. Hearing a message of love of America, like the Kahn's have, from more American Muslims would go a long way to help with that issue.
What many people fail to understand is that you don't have to like Donald Trump to want illegal immigration stopped, but he is the only candidate talking about doing that. Mrs. Clinton's promise to take executive action to protect illegal immigrants is why I will never vote for her.
What many people fail to understand is that you don't have to like Donald Trump to want illegal immigration stopped, but he is the only candidate talking about doing that. Mrs. Clinton's promise to take executive action to protect illegal immigrants is why I will never vote for her.
23
Not that you'll care, but the claim from Clinton is first and foremost a pragmatic one.
It's simple: no, we should not have 11 million or so illegals in the country. But the fact is, we do. Doesn't really matter why, who's to blame, whatever: the fact is, we do.
Another fact deriving from this is: it would be very hard to round them all up--you'd have to have the government go through and check everybody, then figure out how to grab 11 million people, then stick them some place until you could organize the cattle cars.
Another prob: massive economic and political consequences. Bad ones. An example: okay, we rounded up all the mezzicans. We're shipping them back. Assuming that Mexico says okay, we just chopped out several billion dollars a year from their economy, and dumped maybe six million unemployed, homeless people on a country that has a lot of probs anyway.
THEN there's a moral argument: you're talking about a lot of people we've used for cheap labor for decades, people who have homes and kids and churches and businesses and roots here. So we just kick them all out, tough luck, suckers, you're done? Take your brats with you?
Come on, already. Grow up.
It's simple: no, we should not have 11 million or so illegals in the country. But the fact is, we do. Doesn't really matter why, who's to blame, whatever: the fact is, we do.
Another fact deriving from this is: it would be very hard to round them all up--you'd have to have the government go through and check everybody, then figure out how to grab 11 million people, then stick them some place until you could organize the cattle cars.
Another prob: massive economic and political consequences. Bad ones. An example: okay, we rounded up all the mezzicans. We're shipping them back. Assuming that Mexico says okay, we just chopped out several billion dollars a year from their economy, and dumped maybe six million unemployed, homeless people on a country that has a lot of probs anyway.
THEN there's a moral argument: you're talking about a lot of people we've used for cheap labor for decades, people who have homes and kids and churches and businesses and roots here. So we just kick them all out, tough luck, suckers, you're done? Take your brats with you?
Come on, already. Grow up.
1
I sometimes think this is a made up issue at this point. I have read many times that President Obama has deported more people than any other president. I have also read many times that there is a negative flow of immigrants back to Mexico. I believe the real problem is our immigration laws and some types of people that are here like children of illegal immigrants etc. Instead of trying to scare people the GOP should work to fix these problem areas.
3
He has not - the numbers have been fudged by now counting those turned away at the border as deportations.
4
He counts people turned away at the border. That's not deportation.
5
Unfortunately the NY Times misses the mark with this editorial.
Many who support Trump on immigration base their beliefs about immigration on incorrect "facts" repeated year after year ad nauseam. "Obama and Clinton favor open borders with no vetting." "Obama and Clinton won't enforce immigration laws." "Illegals are taking jobs from Americans and causing low wages." The NY Times could do a service by correcting the record.
And why continue the focus on only one aspect of the problem? Why not talk about the employers who hire the undocumented? They are the ones who are causing unemployment and low wages. Trump doesn't address them because he is one of those employers who prefers those desperate enough to work for low wages and no benefits.
Many who support Trump on immigration base their beliefs about immigration on incorrect "facts" repeated year after year ad nauseam. "Obama and Clinton favor open borders with no vetting." "Obama and Clinton won't enforce immigration laws." "Illegals are taking jobs from Americans and causing low wages." The NY Times could do a service by correcting the record.
And why continue the focus on only one aspect of the problem? Why not talk about the employers who hire the undocumented? They are the ones who are causing unemployment and low wages. Trump doesn't address them because he is one of those employers who prefers those desperate enough to work for low wages and no benefits.
25
The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1996. This act, which passed with huge bi-partisan majorities in both houses, calls for the deportation of unauthorized immigrants and a crackdown on employers who hire them. The presidential nominees should promise to enforce the action, including the crackdown on employers who hire illegal immigrants. But Hillary has promise to shield unauthorized immigrants from deportation and give the permission to work.
1
Trump proposes to enforce the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1996. This act, which passed with huge bi-partisan majorities in both houses, calls for the deportation of unauthorized immigrants and a crackdown on employers who hire them. Since the law is already on the books, Trump has not need to make it a campaign issue. However, Hillary has promise to expand on President Obama executive action grants unauthorized migrants immunity to deportation and permission to work in the United States. This means she thinks employers should hire illegal immigrants.
1
Fact: 600,000 people legally cross the southern border from Mexico into the United States every day. Fact: Nearly 40% of the illegal immigrants presently in the U.S. entered legally and have over stayed their visas. Fact: Illegal immigration into the U.S. is at a 40 year low. Conclussion: Buliding a wall is a dumb solution to illigal immigration, and anyone who would vote for someone who wants build a wall has been suckered by a con.
16
A wall is dumb. I favor employment enforecement and deportation upon discovery.
1
600, 000 per day ?
where did you get that number, its preposterous
where did you get that number, its preposterous
1
To all NYTimes columnists:
When discussing any topic on the election, could you please present both the Democrat and Republican point-of-views.
I thought the one-sided news coverage for the Democratic Party was gone (e.g. all for Mrs. Clinton, no reporting or negative reporting on Mr. Sanders), after Mrs. Clinton won the presumptive and now actual acceptance for POTUS.
Even if the facts by the Democrats are 100% true ( I doubt that), it would be refreshing to read a well-written and balanced reporting of the news from both parties, and not the "cherry-picking" versions by the NYTimes!
When discussing any topic on the election, could you please present both the Democrat and Republican point-of-views.
I thought the one-sided news coverage for the Democratic Party was gone (e.g. all for Mrs. Clinton, no reporting or negative reporting on Mr. Sanders), after Mrs. Clinton won the presumptive and now actual acceptance for POTUS.
Even if the facts by the Democrats are 100% true ( I doubt that), it would be refreshing to read a well-written and balanced reporting of the news from both parties, and not the "cherry-picking" versions by the NYTimes!
19
That is the problem we have had in the media for the last 10 or 20 years.
The media reports the Republican point of view and it is treated as if it is fact.
But it is not. And the media has the responsibility to tell us that the Republican talking points are not true.
This article does this.
We need a lot more of this.
The media reports the Republican point of view and it is treated as if it is fact.
But it is not. And the media has the responsibility to tell us that the Republican talking points are not true.
This article does this.
We need a lot more of this.
1
To all right-wingers: there are such things as facts.
This op-ed piece came with links that you can check; if you think they're wrong, the thing to do is to provide better facts, not caterwaul about commies.
And by the way, guys, you ARE the people who keep caterwauling about "cultural relativism that teaches kids there are no such things as facts."
Not to mention that if you see the Times as hopelessly gone commie or whatever, why are you even bothering to read it? i mean, they're not gonna change, and you can't seem to provide an intelligent reason for readers to change, so what's your point?
This op-ed piece came with links that you can check; if you think they're wrong, the thing to do is to provide better facts, not caterwaul about commies.
And by the way, guys, you ARE the people who keep caterwauling about "cultural relativism that teaches kids there are no such things as facts."
Not to mention that if you see the Times as hopelessly gone commie or whatever, why are you even bothering to read it? i mean, they're not gonna change, and you can't seem to provide an intelligent reason for readers to change, so what's your point?
1
This is an editorial, not news.
1
Trump goes after the mother who is mourning her lost son. I find his speech is beyond mean and hateful. Donald Trump is a home ground terrorist without a gun. His weapon is his mouth.
16
Did you criticize Chris Matthews for his equally mean and hateful remarks about the Benghazi mother, supported by many in here who thought it was terrible and exploitive?
2
Rather than build a wall, we Americans need to do more to bolster the economies of Mexico, and other central and South American countries that are the source of illegals. How? Provide granting programs to improve education - children in small town Mexico and agriculture areas seldom go beyond the 8th grade; offer incentives to do and grow businesses in Mexico, especially along our boarder; and remember that capitalism, our religion, requires free markets and competition, including labor, in order to be heathy.
2
Terrific, support foreign countries and keep the jobs elsewhere than the USA. We see what China has done to the US economy,as well as South Korea, Vietnam, Pakistan, India, Cambodia, and a whole list of other "Made elsewhere, but NOT in the USA"!
2
Why is it our job to fix Mexico and other regional countries? Mexico, for example, is blessed with tremendous natural resources and is a popular tourism destination. Unfortunately, they are corrupt, racist and classist - in other words, as in other places of the world, its the culture that has developed. We cannot fix that - they have the means and resources to do so; the will to do so must come from within.
2
More important is "encouraging" political change in Mexico. As long as the game in Mexico is encouraging the poor and uneducated to skedaddle to the US and send money back to Mexico, the economic situation has little incentive to change. Why bother? When Mexico's 3rd or 4th largest revenue stream comes from Mexican nationals sending money back "home," why would the Mexican elites and political class do anything to disrupt that?
I think the US should use its political and economic superior position to once and for all force Mexico and other countries south to make real economic and political change. Make them responsible for their own people, instead of making the US responsible. Otherwise, we'll be stuck with what we have now, which among other things is a US in which the two dominant political parties are competing to see who can pander most to a Hispanic constituency which, according to Democrats at least, is pro-illegal immigration (aka lawless).
I think the US should use its political and economic superior position to once and for all force Mexico and other countries south to make real economic and political change. Make them responsible for their own people, instead of making the US responsible. Otherwise, we'll be stuck with what we have now, which among other things is a US in which the two dominant political parties are competing to see who can pander most to a Hispanic constituency which, according to Democrats at least, is pro-illegal immigration (aka lawless).
1
Worth repeating: Why is it that the NYT cannot honestly portray the counter argument?
For many Independents and Democrats, immigration is the biggest, most contentious issue of the election, one that makes them single issue voters. Labeling everyone a xenophobe who doesn't agree with everything in the Democratic platform on immigration will not help win the election in November and will help this country go by way of Brexit.
A simple truth to the NYTEB: please present both sides to this issue. The country is divided on immigration and that includes a lot of Democrat voters as well.
For many Independents and Democrats, immigration is the biggest, most contentious issue of the election, one that makes them single issue voters. Labeling everyone a xenophobe who doesn't agree with everything in the Democratic platform on immigration will not help win the election in November and will help this country go by way of Brexit.
A simple truth to the NYTEB: please present both sides to this issue. The country is divided on immigration and that includes a lot of Democrat voters as well.
51
Because the NYTimes is pro-Clinton and Pro-Democrats! However, in this case, since the article is "editorial" in nature, the NYTimes is allowed to be on-sided!
5
Could you explain what is, "the other side of the argument," that we have a problem we need to deal with, that we need to look at things reasonably, that the country generally agrees on a lot here, that making stuff up and yelling gets us nowhere?
What would that be, exactly? "Let me explain why making stuff up, yelling, and refusing to listen helps the country?"
What would that be, exactly? "Let me explain why making stuff up, yelling, and refusing to listen helps the country?"
I would like hear the specifics of why you think immigration is the most important issue.
The simple truth is that most people are for a sensible system of legal immigration, and against illegal immigration. Why does that seem so hard for the NYTimes to fathom? It's like driving over the speed limit: illegal. Maybe speeding is not the worse thing in the world, but until we change the laws, I should expect some sort of punishment if I'm caught driving too fast. Could there be a scenario where I should not be punished for speeding? Yes, I can think of a few. But 12 million times?
31
JAS, we're speaking here of people's lives, not speeding. For every person deported, a family is torn apart and hearts are broken. It does not matter how they came here, they are here and a fact of life. Let's be the country the world thinks us to be, let's welcome these people, they make us better.
Your analogy is off the mark. Unless a driver is speeding to get his pregnant wife to the maternity hospital, speeders are acting on their own discretion whether out of frustration, selfishness, thrill-seeking or simple reckless disregard for the safety of others. Most illegal immigrants, especially those from Latin America, are driven by desperation over joblessness, extreme poverty or fear of political, religious, ethnic or sexual persecution. It's not as simple as disobeying a traffic sign. Trump doesn't want voters to see the difference and recognize that a solution is complicated and requires thoughtfulness not knee-jerk reaction.
The simple truth is, that's pretty much what this op-ed piece said. Could we stop pretending that we disagree when we don't, and that Them Libruls Hat Amurrica?
Nobody's in favor of endless illegal immigration.
Nobody writing for the Times wants to get rid of the Second Amendment.
Nobody is in favor of abortion, any more than they're in favor of tonsillectomies or root canal.
Just thought I'd clear the others up,ntoo.
Nobody's in favor of endless illegal immigration.
Nobody writing for the Times wants to get rid of the Second Amendment.
Nobody is in favor of abortion, any more than they're in favor of tonsillectomies or root canal.
Just thought I'd clear the others up,ntoo.
In the time before the Soviet Union collapsed, the visa applicants were asked if they had ever been a member or a sympathiser of a long list of Leftist and Communist organisations. Why can US not follow the same policy with anybody from terrorist infested country applying for a visa to confirm that he has never been a member or a sympathiser of a jihadi or a Muslim extremist Group. False statement should mean immediate denial or if the culprit is already in the US immediate deportation.
15
They are asked. The screening process for refugees to the US can take years--an average of over 25 months. It is scare-mongering to suggest that the US has open borders and allows immigrants in willy-nilly. That's why we have accepted so few refugees (comparatively) from Syria, to our shame.
Sigh.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-communist-totalitarian-party-...
We've got plenty of right-wingers here at hime to cope with.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-communist-totalitarian-party-...
We've got plenty of right-wingers here at hime to cope with.
We don't need to imitate the Soviets. U.S. Code § 1182 (Inadmissible Aliens) states: “Whenever the president finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.” If the deaths of thousands of Americans in terror attack doesn’t justify a suspension of travel and immigration from countries that export terrorists, what would?
1
Before the GOP became the party of fear and fear mongering they too supported comprehensive immigration reform.
4
Has anyone from the party of illegal aliens yet explained to the American people exactly what then mean by "comprehensive immigration reform" and how their "reform" will help the American people? Or do they have to pass it before we read it?
2
The immigration I want to see end is the immigration of engineers to Silicon Valley and other high-tech centers.
In some cases, as with Disney, they are displacing American workers. Why? Because the rotten H1B visa program that is used to import foreign engineers caps the salaries these carpetbaggers are paid.
And, yet, this disgraceful state of affairs is at least partly our own fault for having an educational system that does not produce enough engineers. We need a massive campaign to build interest and accomplishment in STEM fields at an early age. We also need to end the sexism that drives girls and women out of science and engineering.
Above all, we must abolish the abuses of the H1B visa system so that any foreigners who want to come to this country as engineers must do so on a level playing field.
In some cases, as with Disney, they are displacing American workers. Why? Because the rotten H1B visa program that is used to import foreign engineers caps the salaries these carpetbaggers are paid.
And, yet, this disgraceful state of affairs is at least partly our own fault for having an educational system that does not produce enough engineers. We need a massive campaign to build interest and accomplishment in STEM fields at an early age. We also need to end the sexism that drives girls and women out of science and engineering.
Above all, we must abolish the abuses of the H1B visa system so that any foreigners who want to come to this country as engineers must do so on a level playing field.
50
I take your point, but why the focus strictly on engineers? Isn't the same issue at hand for a variety of U.S. workers from housekeepers to doctors?
I'm not anti-immigrant. I'm just saying: it's complicated. But protecting the 1% is just dodging the issue.
I'm not anti-immigrant. I'm just saying: it's complicated. But protecting the 1% is just dodging the issue.
American graduates from engineering programs can no longer find jobs, so it is not our educational system.
Why hire an American who will not work nights and weekends when you can hire an indentured servant from India?
Why hire an American who will not work nights and weekends when you can hire an indentured servant from India?
3
"Recent polling from the Pew Research Center is instructive: Fifty-nine percent of the public said immigrants 'strengthen the country,' while only 33 percent said they were a burden. And 75 percent said immigrants should be allowed to stay legally, if they meet certain conditions."
Not just on this issue, but also with respect to many others, poll after poll indicates that the GOP is not merely the Anti-Democrat Party, but is indeed the ANTI-DEMOCRACY PARTY.
Lies, misdirection, divisiveness, obstruction and demagoguery are the current stock and trade of what was once the party of Lincoln.
Not just on this issue, but also with respect to many others, poll after poll indicates that the GOP is not merely the Anti-Democrat Party, but is indeed the ANTI-DEMOCRACY PARTY.
Lies, misdirection, divisiveness, obstruction and demagoguery are the current stock and trade of what was once the party of Lincoln.
5
The NYTimes contradicts itself in the same weekend on illegal immigration. One article says Massachusetts has been more successful at increasing its standard of living relative to Texas since the 80s, the other says illegal immigration is all good. Texas State Demographer Steve Murdock can explain the New York Times self contradiction, simply google it, by explaining the correlation between massive illegal immigration, education and income. This is yet another example of the Times cranking out political propoganda under the guise of journalism. Interesting.
28
Kirby's popular comment below says it best. Controlled immigration, targeted to the skill sets needed to help the economy is needed, not the dishonest helter-skelter which has middle class taxpayers subsidizing corporations like Walmart by paying its employees' social benefits. Look, I live in the NYC metro area, neo-liberalism works for me for the time being. The value of my house is inflated, and I know never to question any contractor who does work for me as to the immigration status of his or her workers. I question whether my short term good is good for my children, grandchildren, or the country as a whole. I don't think all Trump supporters are racist, I think they want to press the pause button on immigration, so we can assimilate those who are already here. We don't necessarily need ethnic homogeneity, but cultural homogeneity of a sort is necessary for a society to work smoothly. Shared values are a good thing. We need to be able to discuss them in terms all can understand.
41
Are you aware that you just said you profit off the illegal immigration you want stopped?
As typical, this NY Times editorial leaves out a few facts.
What do taxpayers pay for education, health care, police, prisons, etc. as a result of illegal aliens? Unless the cost is $0, illegal aliens have a cost. Tell us what it is.
Do any illegal aliens commit crimes? Unless the answer is no, tell us how to what degree,
Do illegal aliens depress wages for American citizens, particularly minorities? What economist believes increasing the supply of low wage workers doesn't impact wages?
Spare us the emotionalism of "wonderful" immigrant families. Policy by anecdote doesn't impress people. And stop conflating legal and illegal immigration. We don't like being mislead.
What do taxpayers pay for education, health care, police, prisons, etc. as a result of illegal aliens? Unless the cost is $0, illegal aliens have a cost. Tell us what it is.
Do any illegal aliens commit crimes? Unless the answer is no, tell us how to what degree,
Do illegal aliens depress wages for American citizens, particularly minorities? What economist believes increasing the supply of low wage workers doesn't impact wages?
Spare us the emotionalism of "wonderful" immigrant families. Policy by anecdote doesn't impress people. And stop conflating legal and illegal immigration. We don't like being mislead.
62
Once upon the Time the motto of the NYTimes was "All the News That's Fit to Print, and the newspaper was objective. Today, especially for Hillary Clinton and against Mr. Trump and Mr. Sanders, it's been "All the News that the NYTimes Sees Fit to Print".
Editorials of course are subjective, but could we please have both sides of the argument, and not just the Pro-Clinton/Democratic Versions? And are there actually any facts that Mr. Trump speaks of, that are actually true and positive?
Editorials of course are subjective, but could we please have both sides of the argument, and not just the Pro-Clinton/Democratic Versions? And are there actually any facts that Mr. Trump speaks of, that are actually true and positive?
7
Stopping illegal immigration from Mexico, and also drugs, is simple.
Stop hiring them.
And stop buying the drugs.
And many of those hiring them are voting Republican, farmers, construction, meat packing, hotels.
You can bet that there are some undocumented workers in Trump hotels.
Stop hiring them.
And stop buying the drugs.
And many of those hiring them are voting Republican, farmers, construction, meat packing, hotels.
You can bet that there are some undocumented workers in Trump hotels.
Heddy Greer - "We don't like being mislead."
You're much too kind they are not misleading us they are LYING to us.
You're much too kind they are not misleading us they are LYING to us.
2
Simple truths? Good one! And since Khan was brought up, let's go with that. Khan claimed that no one asked him to speak at the Clinton event and that he was not there to campaign. So why exactly was he speaking at the event and campaigning? Truth? Read elsewhere.
22
You have misunderstood (or misrepresented) what he said. He was initially simply invited, then later asked to speak. He was very clear about this during his interview next day. Check your sources.
Uh, you wouldn't happen to know where you got your bogus info from, would you?
Source, please.
Source, please.
>>
If truth is what is required to iron out this issue, we are in trouble.
If truth is what is required to iron out this issue, we are in trouble.
9
Another false-hearted editorial from the Times: by refusing to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration you paper over the actual issues in favor of the usual partisan rhetoric.
22
I'm sorry to say so, but very little of what is contained in the Editorial Board statement is true. Truth concerning immigration seems to depend on your economic status and your politics. Those of you who wish to transform the US through rapid demographic change can twist all the polls and all the "facts" as you wish.
I would like to say, in closing, that your lack of concern for the American working class is sickening. And, your lack of concern for our Anglo-American heritage exposes an ignorance that is a direct result of a poor education and a great deal of self-hatred.
I would like to say, in closing, that your lack of concern for the American working class is sickening. And, your lack of concern for our Anglo-American heritage exposes an ignorance that is a direct result of a poor education and a great deal of self-hatred.
24
Why not just make all Mexicans US citizens? Why the arbitrary test of loving only those who came here illegally?
11
The NYT editorial board forgot to mention the two most important factors in favor of illegal immigration: greater numbers of gullible Democrat voters, and cheap labor.
22
Plainly, immigrants who come here legally should be treated with kindness and generosity. It doesn't follow from the above that (1) anyone who wants to come here should be able to, (2) our immigration policy should be based on something other than the best interest of our country, or (3) people who come here illegally should be allowed to stay.
Our immigration law is designed to admit a mix of people from around the world. If you admit those people and in addition admit millions of other illegal immigrants, largely from Latin America, and eventually give then amnesty, you are undermining the enacted policy.
Let me put this in terms that perhaps a liberal can understand. Harvard College has a 5.2% admission rate. Do you think it would be a good idea to admit those and in addition force Harvard to admit anyone who can sneak into Harvard Yard?
Well, the U.S. has the good fortune, like Harvard, to have more people who want to come here than the country can accommodate. So, like Harvard, we are entitled to be selective. We should admit only those we think have the best chance of being successful and making a contribution to our country. We want win-win immigrants.
Here's an idea that's wildly politically incorrect, but I don't see why it's a bad idea. Why not administer a standardized test, like the SAT, and admit those who score highest? And yes, administer it in English.
Our immigration law is designed to admit a mix of people from around the world. If you admit those people and in addition admit millions of other illegal immigrants, largely from Latin America, and eventually give then amnesty, you are undermining the enacted policy.
Let me put this in terms that perhaps a liberal can understand. Harvard College has a 5.2% admission rate. Do you think it would be a good idea to admit those and in addition force Harvard to admit anyone who can sneak into Harvard Yard?
Well, the U.S. has the good fortune, like Harvard, to have more people who want to come here than the country can accommodate. So, like Harvard, we are entitled to be selective. We should admit only those we think have the best chance of being successful and making a contribution to our country. We want win-win immigrants.
Here's an idea that's wildly politically incorrect, but I don't see why it's a bad idea. Why not administer a standardized test, like the SAT, and admit those who score highest? And yes, administer it in English.
22
Good ideas, but about a half-century too late! In June, more children of "minority" parents were born in American that children of the "majority. Enjoy your new status.
2
Regardless of one's position or believes about immigration, Trump's response to the powerful speech Khizr Khan gave at the DNC over losing their son Humayun, a true American hero, is further empirical proof that even people with "yuge" hands can be the smallest of people, the smallest of human beings. That Trump didn't understand that the only appropriate response should have been empathy and to say thank you for the sacrifices your son made for our country speaks volumes to why he is absolutely unfit to be our President. And shame on the Republican Leadership for not recognizing that and saying it.
7
Mr. Khan gave a heartbreaking speech about his brave son who gave his life in service to the United States. In looking at what caused this unnecessary death, one must point the finger squarely at George Bush and his enablers in congress. Mr. Trump has stated that he was against the Iraq war and would never have sent our troops there. Whether one believes this is up to the individual. However, we do know that Mrs. Clinton voted affirmatively to send Mr. Khan's son to a dubious war and his ultimate death. We do know that. Apparently Mr. Khan forgives her and Bush for this decision and is taking out his anger on Mr. Trump because he is proposing a temporary moratorium on immigration from nations which produce terrorists- a common sense position, the overheated political rhetoric notwithstanding. Trump is a boor, and makes blunt statements, but the breathless indignation from the Times and others at a realpolitik solution to a growing threat to our country is getting old. I think most Americans in their heart would agree.
10
You call Trump a boor. You're not being a boor when your thin-skin prompts you take a slap at the parents of a dead Muslim U.S. soldier because they had the temerity go to the Democratic convention to criticize your avowed "policy" to ban Muslims from the country. You're been a heartless opportunist, eager to salve your pride without regard to the pain you inflict on the Khans, on John McCain, on a handicapped reporter, on physically unattractive women, etc.
I always wonder what 'compressive' or straight immigration reform means and this certainly does not explain it either. My feeling is that it means nothing at all.
8
As a physician in NYC, I see "immigrants" weekly who get on planes from "their country" with major medical problems and come straight from the airport to the ER and get free, often long-term, medical care. This is right? I am expected, for free, to operate on everyone from anywhere regardless of their ability to pay?
Immigrants used to need sponsors, and medical clearances, before being allowed in so as not to be an economic burden on the US. Regardless of the sales taxes, or real estate taxes, they pay, illegals are not in an upper bracket- the bracket that pays the lions share of the money that supports our country. We lose with more low earners who pay no income tax.
What has happened is that extreme liberalism has pushed middle of the road people to the opposite extreme.
The US cannot take the entire world in. And if liberals would stop thinking that we could, perhaps some common ground could be found.
Immigrants used to need sponsors, and medical clearances, before being allowed in so as not to be an economic burden on the US. Regardless of the sales taxes, or real estate taxes, they pay, illegals are not in an upper bracket- the bracket that pays the lions share of the money that supports our country. We lose with more low earners who pay no income tax.
What has happened is that extreme liberalism has pushed middle of the road people to the opposite extreme.
The US cannot take the entire world in. And if liberals would stop thinking that we could, perhaps some common ground could be found.
39
Once again the Editorial Board insists on discussing immigration without distinguishing between legal and illegal immigration. Of the myriad of irritating things the NYT does, this is at the top of the list. The editorial notes Obama's "aggressive" deportation without mentioning that his numbers appear aggressive only because his administration changed the definition of deportation. It notes that most Americans want "strong border security" without mentioning that the Democrats definition of comprehensive immigration reform is simply a path to citizenship for those already here. There was zero mention of increasing border security during the convention, none. Journalists should be pointing out these facts, not taking sides. The NYT has failed miserably in this regard. The deplorable words of Trump do not give the NYT the right to abrogate their journalistic responsibilities.
27
Simple Immigration Facts
• Americans aren’t divided over immigration. They favor legal immigration and oppose illegal immigration.
• We don’t need illegal immigration to spur the economy or sustain population levels. We can attract all the legal immigrants we want by raising legal immigration quotas. Millions are waiting in line.
• The admission that we have too many illegal immigrants to deport is an admission that the federal government cannot stop illegal immigration on its own. We should empower state and cities to enforce immigration laws that mirror federal immigration laws. We should also reinterpret or amend the citizenship to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to American citizens.
• Once steps are taken to effectively stop future illegal immigration, Americans might consider another amnesty for “dreamers” and other unauthorized immigrants residing within our borders.
• Americans aren’t divided over immigration. They favor legal immigration and oppose illegal immigration.
• We don’t need illegal immigration to spur the economy or sustain population levels. We can attract all the legal immigrants we want by raising legal immigration quotas. Millions are waiting in line.
• The admission that we have too many illegal immigrants to deport is an admission that the federal government cannot stop illegal immigration on its own. We should empower state and cities to enforce immigration laws that mirror federal immigration laws. We should also reinterpret or amend the citizenship to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to American citizens.
• Once steps are taken to effectively stop future illegal immigration, Americans might consider another amnesty for “dreamers” and other unauthorized immigrants residing within our borders.
45
Simpler fact: when you start going off about what "we should," do, you are not giving simple facts.
1
My parents ran a small store with a few employees. While the shop had not been profitable for decades, they didn't close it until many of the employees were ready to retire. Their management style is clearly not brilliant. Capitalism dictates that when the business is no longer competitive, it should be restructured or shuttered and resources, including humans, should be deployed elsewhere to maximize efficiency. For small business, human relationship often prevails over efficiency. Clearly, our multinational cooperation today operates very differently. The mantra is that the executives must fulfill their fiduciary duty to the shareholders. This is very reasonable given that they are only hired to manage shareholder's money. I think that here lies the dilemma with large modern corporation. They are very efficient but treat employee no better than a clog in the machine. Mom and Pop businesses are humane but will never be competitive in today's world. One answer is clearly labor unions that protects the right of the workers. A complementary answer lies in rethinking and restructuring the mandate for corporate executives; it may not be radical for society to dictate that the responsibilities of company executive may lie beyond that of the shareholders but also the welfare of the employees and the local community. Both these changes will somewhat reduce economic efficiency but maximizing economic efficiency is not the only measure of social good as my parents knew.
95
Happy, satisfied, loyal, enthusiastic, experienced employees are an asset to any business, although one that is difficult to measure, especially in terms of short term shareholder dividends. Employees who are economically more secure are also better consumers and therefore an engine of overall economic growth. Unions and government regulation are needed like cough medicine businesses have to swallow-- it is good for them in the long run, even it initially leaves a bad taste.
2
There are always 5 interpretations as to how news is presented and interpreted:
1. The subjective presentation of the news
2. The objective presentation of the news
3. The interpretation of the news by the readers
4. The interoperation of the news by either the Democrats or the Republicans
5. The actual facts of the news
1. The subjective presentation of the news
2. The objective presentation of the news
3. The interpretation of the news by the readers
4. The interoperation of the news by either the Democrats or the Republicans
5. The actual facts of the news
2
Do you have a point to make?
Are these numbers from Pew Research any good?
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/what-we-know-about-illeg...
" In 2014, 5.6 million unauthorized immigrants from Mexico lived in the U.S., down by about 1 million since 2007. "
"More non-Mexicans than Mexicans were apprehended at U.S. borders in 2014, the first time on record this has happened. In fiscal 2014, 229,178 Mexicans were apprehended, a sharp drop from a peak of 1.6 million apprehended in 2000. The decline in apprehensions reflects the decrease in number of unauthorized Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S."
"Even as border apprehensions dropped, deportations of Mexican immigrants reached a record high in 2013 of 314,904, up from 169,031 in 2005."
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/what-we-know-about-illeg...
" In 2014, 5.6 million unauthorized immigrants from Mexico lived in the U.S., down by about 1 million since 2007. "
"More non-Mexicans than Mexicans were apprehended at U.S. borders in 2014, the first time on record this has happened. In fiscal 2014, 229,178 Mexicans were apprehended, a sharp drop from a peak of 1.6 million apprehended in 2000. The decline in apprehensions reflects the decrease in number of unauthorized Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S."
"Even as border apprehensions dropped, deportations of Mexican immigrants reached a record high in 2013 of 314,904, up from 169,031 in 2005."
5
The truth about immigration? Here are two verities...corporations import cheaper labor and to work in the IT field. Mexican labor is required in the farm fields and in kitchens, no where else.
23
This is racist. While many immigrants passing through our southern border are unskilled, to say that they are only needed in the kitchen/fields shows you don't really know what you are talking about. Illegal immigrants work all types of jobs in many industries, not just those that you imagine them to.
"Donald Trump and his allies at the Republican National Convention in Cleveland peddled two falsehoods about America's immigration problem."
What a journalistic challenge it must be to focus on only two falsehoods among so many on offer.
What a journalistic challenge it must be to focus on only two falsehoods among so many on offer.
9
It seems obvious to me that the two senators mentioned are pandering due to the fact that they care only of getting re-elected, and as such exhibit no moral compass. I hope they both get trounced for that lack.
18
Every industrialized nation in the world, particularly Canada, has very strict immigration policies, and do not tolerate illegal immigration. Why should people be exempted from our laws because they are minorities? Illegal immigration has devastated the labor market and financial wellbeing of unskillegal American citizens, who simply cannot compete with millions willing to work for little compensation. And then there is our security. How can we, at this time in history, continue to have an ensured southern border? I'm completely for a border wall. We'll make its design inclusive and culturally sensitive to our southern neighbors, but at least 40 feet high.
47
In a word, tunnels.
If such a wall could be built, I'd say it would affect the earth's orbit.
How can any thinking person believe such nonsense will ever happen?
How can any thinking person believe such nonsense will ever happen?
A border wall will do little about illegal immigration most undocumented people fly here with visas. If you could actually get the wall built it will cost billions and solve nothing. Moreover the fact is that the undocumented take mostly agricultural jobs that Americans don't want to do. Your willful ignorance is part of the problem. Please learn the facts.
Please. This whole event was Hillary propaganda. One drop of water does not make a well. Many more American Christians have given their lives to the wars Senator Hillary Clinton voted for than American Muslims--even ratio taken into account. Where was Chelsea when the wars were hot--serving in the wars her mother voted to send Chelsea's neighbors to fight?
An important question not answered is, can a faithful Muslim defend and protect the Constitution above Shariah? Catholics and Protestants and Jews, for example, face no such dilemma. Perhaps, there is a new Muslim religion, the American Muslim version. If so, a good thing. Something Mr. Khan should have pointed out during his self-serving speech.
Having had a son, a Marine, in the Middle East during war, I can tell you, this was nothing more than Chautaugua Tent hypocrisy.
I appreciate their loss more than you might imagine since my son came home safe, but it was their son's choice to serve as it was for mine. Their real pain is the loss of their son, not the politics of it all.
Hillary, for other reasons, too, might want to read that same Constitution Mr. Khan presented to the camera.
An important question not answered is, can a faithful Muslim defend and protect the Constitution above Shariah? Catholics and Protestants and Jews, for example, face no such dilemma. Perhaps, there is a new Muslim religion, the American Muslim version. If so, a good thing. Something Mr. Khan should have pointed out during his self-serving speech.
Having had a son, a Marine, in the Middle East during war, I can tell you, this was nothing more than Chautaugua Tent hypocrisy.
I appreciate their loss more than you might imagine since my son came home safe, but it was their son's choice to serve as it was for mine. Their real pain is the loss of their son, not the politics of it all.
Hillary, for other reasons, too, might want to read that same Constitution Mr. Khan presented to the camera.
12
How would you feel if your son had made the ultimate sacrifice, and then that sacrifice was dishonored by the likes of Mr. Trump? I don't think you understand anything about what Mr. Khan was trying to say.
The argument that immigration is "good for the economy" makes a basic error:
It confuses a bigger "economy" with a better economy.
It confuses the total economic pie with the slices of the pie.
The total economic pie is the total GDP.
The slices are the GDP per capita.
A bigger economy is a bigger economic pie.
A better economy is a pie with bigger slices for each person.
Unlike most "engines" of growth in the "economy" -- i.e. total GDP --
immigration drives up economic growth only by increasing population.
But when the new, increased "economy" -- the total GDP -- the pie --
is divided among the new, increased population -- GDP per capita -- the slices --the result is that the slices are smaller.
It confuses a bigger "economy" with a better economy.
It confuses the total economic pie with the slices of the pie.
The total economic pie is the total GDP.
The slices are the GDP per capita.
A bigger economy is a bigger economic pie.
A better economy is a pie with bigger slices for each person.
Unlike most "engines" of growth in the "economy" -- i.e. total GDP --
immigration drives up economic growth only by increasing population.
But when the new, increased "economy" -- the total GDP -- the pie --
is divided among the new, increased population -- GDP per capita -- the slices --the result is that the slices are smaller.
6
The "truths" of our immigration mess cannot all be told in one editorial with one or two sets of statistics. Even if Donald Trump had not said bigoted things about Mexican immigrants and Muslims, we would still have the mess. First there is the matter of the sheer numbers who have entered and still enter or stay illegally. Then there is the matter of national security. We really don't know who is coming in with what intent or whether all of them are decent, hard-working, and law-abiding. Then there is the cost to taxpayers. I have never read a NYT news article even attempting to quantify the costs of welfare benefits, free medical care at public hospital emergency rooms, and public education for the children of illegals but there is a cost to all that. And even if illegals are not taking jobs citizens would take at the wages they pay illegals, there is the matter of how they get jobs at all without valid Social Security numbers that all new hires must provide. Do they just make up numbers that may belong to a citizen? Are illegals behind the rash of identity thefts that wreak havoc on the victims? I don't know and the NYT has never to my knowledge explained this. But if they're working without proper documents, they are committing fraud in one form or another. So, yes, Donald Trump is a bigot, but what are the politicians and editors of the mainstream media who have let 11 million and counting people enter our country illegally, work, and raise children without protest?
18
As the American Trumpists (excuse me, NON-Trumpists) continue to wring hands over "importing" Muslim; in particular, Syrian, refugees to the US, Canada has, in the last few months, vetted more than 25,000 Syrians and is busy integrating them into its society.
This from a country that "traditionally" continues to have one tenth the population of the US.
Where are your 250,000+ Syrians?
I have no doubt that a couple of these immigrants will eventually turn out to be rotten eggs and cause a few deaths including their own. But this is the price you pay for immigration.
There were many deaths in NYC after all the Irish and German immigrations in the late 19th century. And need I bring up names such as Sacco, Vanzetti and Emma Goldman?
It seems Canada is willing to take a chance. Even if it DOES involve some mortal risks. A few possible deaths in the homeland from so-called suicide-bombers is a very small price to pay for the greater good of a nation.
Think: What are a few dozen, or perhaps a hundred deaths in comparison to the 4000+ US deaths in Iraq?
This charlatan/poseur Trump and his kin will turn America backwards, into a wimp nation. Take a chance America. Once again, be more like Canada.
This from a country that "traditionally" continues to have one tenth the population of the US.
Where are your 250,000+ Syrians?
I have no doubt that a couple of these immigrants will eventually turn out to be rotten eggs and cause a few deaths including their own. But this is the price you pay for immigration.
There were many deaths in NYC after all the Irish and German immigrations in the late 19th century. And need I bring up names such as Sacco, Vanzetti and Emma Goldman?
It seems Canada is willing to take a chance. Even if it DOES involve some mortal risks. A few possible deaths in the homeland from so-called suicide-bombers is a very small price to pay for the greater good of a nation.
Think: What are a few dozen, or perhaps a hundred deaths in comparison to the 4000+ US deaths in Iraq?
This charlatan/poseur Trump and his kin will turn America backwards, into a wimp nation. Take a chance America. Once again, be more like Canada.
2
Good for them, not for us. It is very cold in Canada and I know many spend half (or a little less than half) in the US.
1
If a claimed benefit of illegal and legal immigration is 'diversity', why are 99% of admitted Syrian 'refugees' Muslim, with only a handful being Christian, despite Christians status as the most repressed, brutalized minority in the Middle East, and America being a largely Christian nation?
In fact, the vast majority of immigrants are from Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and Asia, which is dramatically changing the demographic composition arguably responsible for America's success. If 70% of American citizens are Caucasian, why are not a similar percentage of immigrants likewise of European extraction? Why are Germans, Britains, other Europeans, Christians, and the educated so underrepresented among those admitted? Where's the concern for the vast over representation of third world Muslims? Where's the millions of native Europeans who would love to relocate here, especially given the flooding of the continent with hordes of Arab and North African Muslims? Seems Democrats are phobic against all non third world, non Muslim, self sustaining immigrants, to the detriment of American citizens, especially Blacks.
In fact, the vast majority of immigrants are from Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and Asia, which is dramatically changing the demographic composition arguably responsible for America's success. If 70% of American citizens are Caucasian, why are not a similar percentage of immigrants likewise of European extraction? Why are Germans, Britains, other Europeans, Christians, and the educated so underrepresented among those admitted? Where's the concern for the vast over representation of third world Muslims? Where's the millions of native Europeans who would love to relocate here, especially given the flooding of the continent with hordes of Arab and North African Muslims? Seems Democrats are phobic against all non third world, non Muslim, self sustaining immigrants, to the detriment of American citizens, especially Blacks.
14
Europeans don't want to emigrate here. We have a very poor social safety net and high gun violence to name a few reasons. America is a beacon for immigrants whose countries are poorer and run poorly. Not for richer nations with better services.
4
Where are the facts that would support your argument?
I can think of only one "Simple Truth(s) About Immigration" as concerns "immigration" debate between now and November.
Simple Truth: Donald J. Trump knows next to nothing about Muslims, asylum seekers, and walls.
Therefore here in the Times and in formulating questions for presidential debates distinctions must be carefully be made concerning the particular kinds of movement of people toward the US and the US laws and international conventions that apply.
One way to do that so all can understand will be to carefully tell the stories of families who have come, the Kahn family a good start, or who are trying to come. This is necessary because US debate concerning asylum seekers, for example, is hopelessly contaminated by focus on the "11 million".*
So NYT and readers, start the story telling, facts only please.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
* case in point replies to:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/upshot/the-one-demographic-that-is-hur...
John from Cologne, my Gmail awaits.
Simple Truth: Donald J. Trump knows next to nothing about Muslims, asylum seekers, and walls.
Therefore here in the Times and in formulating questions for presidential debates distinctions must be carefully be made concerning the particular kinds of movement of people toward the US and the US laws and international conventions that apply.
One way to do that so all can understand will be to carefully tell the stories of families who have come, the Kahn family a good start, or who are trying to come. This is necessary because US debate concerning asylum seekers, for example, is hopelessly contaminated by focus on the "11 million".*
So NYT and readers, start the story telling, facts only please.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
* case in point replies to:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/upshot/the-one-demographic-that-is-hur...
John from Cologne, my Gmail awaits.
3
And just what do you really need to know. Here are a few things I know. They are not legal. We don't need them nor do we have room for them. Some of them might be dangerous. That is plenty.
4
There are three main ways to deter illegal behaviour. First, remove the incentives for such behaviour. Second, effectively penalise the behaviour. Third, remove or restrict the means.
Focus, for the moment, on some of the details of the second approach. How many Californian almond farmers, or their ilk, have been charged, prosecuted, convicted and sent to prison, and their family farms seized by the state in compensation, after illegal labourers from Mexico have been detained on their farms? Casino operators in Nevada who have employed illegals? NY sweatshops, nail-salons and the like?
Very few you say — and becoming fewer [1]? What a surprise. Note that noisy Trump makes little noise about cracking down hard on the US employers of illegal labour because that's exactly what Trump did when he employed undocumented Polish workers to build Trump Tower.
1) http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/16/obama-amnesty-extends-bu...
Focus, for the moment, on some of the details of the second approach. How many Californian almond farmers, or their ilk, have been charged, prosecuted, convicted and sent to prison, and their family farms seized by the state in compensation, after illegal labourers from Mexico have been detained on their farms? Casino operators in Nevada who have employed illegals? NY sweatshops, nail-salons and the like?
Very few you say — and becoming fewer [1]? What a surprise. Note that noisy Trump makes little noise about cracking down hard on the US employers of illegal labour because that's exactly what Trump did when he employed undocumented Polish workers to build Trump Tower.
1) http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/16/obama-amnesty-extends-bu...
12
If you prefer to get the facts from the Washington Post rather than the Washington Times, as indeed I do, then try this older 2006 article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR200606...
or this article, written in 2013:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/01/30/one-way-to-stem-i...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR200606...
or this article, written in 2013:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/01/30/one-way-to-stem-i...
1
I appreciate immigrants and do believe that they make our country more vibrant. But this editorial offered no proof for why " tens of thousands of Central American mothers and children" are of benefit to our country. Addition of poor refugees requires the purposeful and consistent application of resources and the passage of a few generations to provide the desired citizenship dividends back to the country. Patience, generosity, and consistent application of taxpayer resources are not in abundant supply. Without that, are we left with enclaves of poorly assimilated citizens?
17
Perhaps in the past immigrants contributed, but today our country is over full and has plenty of the children of past immigrants to keep us vibrant, whatever that means.
2
That 'vibrancy' is the reason for wave of terrorism in France, Belgium and Germany.
We should not repeat the mistakes of Merkel.
We should not repeat the mistakes of Merkel.
38
Here is Australia’s answer to illegal immigration. Turn back the boats. Lock them up in horrendous conditions offshore. But this option, shameful as many Australians think it is, is not available to the United States. Australia is an island continent. The United States is not. You’ve got porous borders north and south and free trade agreements with both.
Yes, it would be pleasant if Latinos from the south lined up patiently to have visas approved in an orderly fashion, so that only the best were admitted. But maybe the United States should have thought of that before helping to install the kind of regimes Latinos are sick of living under.
OK, it’s a problem. But you’re not going to solve it by demonising illegal immigrants and feeding a fantasy about an impregnable wall (paid for by Mexico) and the indiscriminate deportation of 11 million people.
Yes, it would be pleasant if Latinos from the south lined up patiently to have visas approved in an orderly fashion, so that only the best were admitted. But maybe the United States should have thought of that before helping to install the kind of regimes Latinos are sick of living under.
OK, it’s a problem. But you’re not going to solve it by demonising illegal immigrants and feeding a fantasy about an impregnable wall (paid for by Mexico) and the indiscriminate deportation of 11 million people.
10
Come now deportation can never be as you indicate. How can you address the problem without reducing inflows, not only from say Mexico but from everywhere?
1
As opposed to what? Telling every last living unskilled Latino to move here and vote Democratic? All the while expecting the American working class to sit back and docilely pay the bill for their translators, their ESL classes, their food stamps, their health care?
3
An important fact left out by this editorial is respect for the law. 11 million people are in America illegally. This editorial wants to reward them with a path to citizenship.
I can understand the compassion behind the Times' position. I can also understand the political calculation that these people who have "walked the path to citizenship" are likely to vote Democratic.
But selective enforcement of the law troubles me. Are we taking the position that a law must not be enforced if it conflicts with the political interests of the Democrats?
I do worry about this. I do not know if Trump has a real plan to deal with the immigration issue. But the lack of a plan on the part of Trump cannot justify the Times' blase attitude, "Let the law not be enforced."
I can understand the compassion behind the Times' position. I can also understand the political calculation that these people who have "walked the path to citizenship" are likely to vote Democratic.
But selective enforcement of the law troubles me. Are we taking the position that a law must not be enforced if it conflicts with the political interests of the Democrats?
I do worry about this. I do not know if Trump has a real plan to deal with the immigration issue. But the lack of a plan on the part of Trump cannot justify the Times' blase attitude, "Let the law not be enforced."
27
Compassion is something that is not objective. If you have compassion for illegal immigrants that might mean less compassion for unskilled citizens. Choose citizens first and leave your compassion for foreigners to charity, not in general government.
1
The World is changing a lot faster than most Americans can keep up with. If one looks at the raw fertility rate in most Latin American countries, it is very low (google: CIA Factbook, country to country comparisons). For many of the countries it is lower than in the USA or many European countries. Yet if you talk to the average American, they are sure the people in Latin America are still reproducing like rabbits and will soon overwhelm us with hordes of immigrants. This disconnect between reality and perception is driving a lot of our perceptions and policy concerning immigration.
12
Why do we care about this, if they stay out of our country? It makes no difference to me, they are not citizens, any that disobey the law need to be addressed.
1
Illegals have babies at a much higher rate than natives. This is a fact however much liberals do not like to admit it.
2
Let's stop the lie about there being 11 million illegals in the USA. That number has been used for the past 25 years - by people like the NYT who want to minimize the enormity of the problems caused by illegal immigration, so they keep the number artificially low.
Given the way that we've had open borders for the past 8 years and more, I'd say the true number of illegals in the country is closer to 25-30 million.
Given the way that we've had open borders for the past 8 years and more, I'd say the true number of illegals in the country is closer to 25-30 million.
32
You'd say? Who are you to make that assumption?
And your numbers are based on what? The wind blowing? People shouldn't come here illegally but what are the all enormities created by illegal immigration? It's more that some people need to scapegoat others who don't look or sound like them.
Yes. Let's trust your gut on data. To quote John Oliver - feelings are not facts.
Let's stop saying the sun is 93MM miles from the Earth. Did you feel how hot it was last weekend all over the Eastern US. It felt more like the Sun was 30MM miles from US.
Let's stop saying the sun is 93MM miles from the Earth. Did you feel how hot it was last weekend all over the Eastern US. It felt more like the Sun was 30MM miles from US.
The simplest truth is that the US is a nation with LAWS.
There is a very straightforward and understandable process of immigration.
Those that do not follow the system of immigration are breaking the law no matter how good their reason for doing so.
If this system is somehow unjust, the US constitution has an cure: change the legislation by a law from Congress not a fiat from a President.
There is a very straightforward and understandable process of immigration.
Those that do not follow the system of immigration are breaking the law no matter how good their reason for doing so.
If this system is somehow unjust, the US constitution has an cure: change the legislation by a law from Congress not a fiat from a President.
50
Everybody knows that the Constitution grants all 7 billion huddled masses the right to move to America: it's the Zeroth Amendment!
36
It never fails. There's always a large group of "real Americans" -- who either immigrated here themselves or are the descendants of immigrants -- trying to pull up the ladder from the next group of would-be immigrants.
Yes, we absolutely need sensible immigration policies. No, we absolutely don't need to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid being offered up by Trump.
Yes, we absolutely need sensible immigration policies. No, we absolutely don't need to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid being offered up by Trump.
141
Well eventually the country is full so no more are needed. We are already over populated so very few immigrants are a benefit to our country.
4
How about we make policy based on the interests of Americans rather than non-Americans. Non-Americans have no right or claim to come here without permission just because of past immigration policy.
By your logic American policies have to remain static despite changing circumstances. So let's buy more horses and bayonets for the army, as the President put it.
And you are factually wrong about those past policies too. Americans in the past shut the immigration door. See 1930-1965. Probably was a good idea too so that the early 20th century waves of immigrants and their kids were forced to assimilate and forget their former national identities. Instead today we have a new second national language emerging, and teaching English to second generation immigrants diverting resources from other educational goals.
By your logic American policies have to remain static despite changing circumstances. So let's buy more horses and bayonets for the army, as the President put it.
And you are factually wrong about those past policies too. Americans in the past shut the immigration door. See 1930-1965. Probably was a good idea too so that the early 20th century waves of immigrants and their kids were forced to assimilate and forget their former national identities. Instead today we have a new second national language emerging, and teaching English to second generation immigrants diverting resources from other educational goals.
3
Businessmen would have only profiteering in their blood and they would do anything to get their business flourish. In the name of color, religion, ethnicity and what not, they would put the nation into a state of anarchy because ethics and morality have different meanings for this class. Trump with vast business interests across the globe would not be different. So let him be in business only, not in politics. It's high time Americans start thinking wisely.
1
The Democratic Convention was far better than the Republican Convention, no doubt. But Hillary Clinton said, as did others, that Americans are not afraid. What they did not stress is that many Americans are angry and for good reason. So many of us feel that playing by the rules no longer means much. There is no longer a level playing field and hasn't been for a long time.
In 2015 Princeton University came out with a study that said that the United States was an oligarchy and no longer a democracy. No surprise to me. And we have two oligarchs running for president. Hillary is the far better choice but for me not a happy one.
In 2015 Princeton University came out with a study that said that the United States was an oligarchy and no longer a democracy. No surprise to me. And we have two oligarchs running for president. Hillary is the far better choice but for me not a happy one.
3
If Clinton is elected, will either party wake up? If Trump is elected, will we survive?
1
Today's dose of hate & fear training comes in the very first sentence. The liberal media cannot sell their fear of Trump without
3
Legal immigration into America is too complicated, too costly, too slow, too inconsistent and too incompetent to serve the interests and follow the values of a great nation of immigrants. But for legal and illegal immigration along with a significant native brown Latino population-primarily Mexican- and black African population, America would be rapidly aging and shrinking. Puerto Ricans are American citizens. And Cubans who set foot in America are treated more favorably by current American immigration law than other immigrants. Particularly if the are white like Marco Rubio, Rafael Cruz and Robert Menendez.
Just like Europe, Russia, China, Japan and South Korea, America would be facing a socioeconomic political educational demographic nightmare as the majority white birthrate is well below replacement levels. And those whites having babies come from the bottom of the socioeconomic educational pyramid. Since the 2008 economic crisis net migration into America from Mexico has reversed with more Mexicans going to Mexico than coming to America.
America could do much better in the quality and value of legal immigrants than Slavic super models raised as atheist communist. Many of the 11 million illegals are working on jobs and at wages that Americans will not. Globalization has killed domestic manual labor jobs. Comprehensive immigration reform means being more selective and nimble in screening the best and brightest.
Just like Europe, Russia, China, Japan and South Korea, America would be facing a socioeconomic political educational demographic nightmare as the majority white birthrate is well below replacement levels. And those whites having babies come from the bottom of the socioeconomic educational pyramid. Since the 2008 economic crisis net migration into America from Mexico has reversed with more Mexicans going to Mexico than coming to America.
America could do much better in the quality and value of legal immigrants than Slavic super models raised as atheist communist. Many of the 11 million illegals are working on jobs and at wages that Americans will not. Globalization has killed domestic manual labor jobs. Comprehensive immigration reform means being more selective and nimble in screening the best and brightest.
5
So just eliminate it for say 5 years while we address the issues and make a new better system. Now that system should keep anyone out who can't be very closely vetted. Allow in only those who have skills that our country needs, and some only for a period of time. Citizens first always.
2
I will be voting for Hillary because I think Trump is irresponsible, uncouth and totally unfit for the presidency. However, that does not mean that I support the Democratic platform on immigration--and I bet there are many others like me. Any kind of amnesty program will be subject to abuse, and encourage more to come, creating the basis for the next amnesty program. Encouraging low-skilled immigration into this country when you have so many low-skilled people out of work is not in the interest of American citizens. The elite of both parties have decided it is in their interests to support illegal immigrants--for a guaranteed vote bank or higher profits---but the vast majority of middle and lower income Americans are against this, and are being ignored.
7
I am not voting for Hillary because she lies, is incompetent, and will continue the bad policies of the current administration. I have objective evidence of this, Trump could be better so he is my choice.
1
If you think the present administration has bad policies, I have no clue what you are using for a standard comparison, but maybe you could enlighten us and tell us what policies have been bad? But you might want to check to make sure your facts are right before you expound.
Only the low skilled Americans appear uninterested in picking heads lettuce in scorching hot fields all day long.
Another simple truth: We are not “a nation of laws” as Republicans endlessly echo. We pick and choose what laws we enforce. Reagan’s attorney general Edwin Meese, speaking of the 1986 amnesty stated, “And there proved to be a failure of political will in enforcing new laws against employers. . . . After a six-month slowdown that followed passage of the legislation, illegal immigration returned to normal levels and continued unabated.” See “An Amnesty by Any Other Name . . . ,” by Edwin Meese III, NY Times, May 24, 2006.
It took six months for Mexicans to figure out that the U.S. was not going to stop employers from hiring undocumented workers. Simply empowering employers to identify proper documentation, (my state of Colorado has been able to identify undocumented aliens in order to deny state benefits) and enforce the laws pertaining to employers would eliminate the carrot that entices illegal immigrants to cross the border. No expensive wall and massive border patrol needed.
It took six months for Mexicans to figure out that the U.S. was not going to stop employers from hiring undocumented workers. Simply empowering employers to identify proper documentation, (my state of Colorado has been able to identify undocumented aliens in order to deny state benefits) and enforce the laws pertaining to employers would eliminate the carrot that entices illegal immigrants to cross the border. No expensive wall and massive border patrol needed.
10
Here’s a class act talking to George Stephanopoulos on ABC about Khzir Khan’s speech at the DNC: "If you look at his wife, she was standing there. She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn't allowed to have anything to say. You tell me."
But Mr Stephanopoulos gave a free pass to the typical bit of Trumpery that followed: “A lot of people have written that. She was extremely quiet, she didn’t have a lot to say, a lot of people have said that”.
Most journalists I know would have jumped on that and asked – and kept asking if necessary: “Who wrote that and said that, sir? One or two names will suffice”. I would suggest “John Miller” or “John Barron” is probably the answer.
No wonder Mr Trump has been leading the media around by those nose.
But Mr Stephanopoulos gave a free pass to the typical bit of Trumpery that followed: “A lot of people have written that. She was extremely quiet, she didn’t have a lot to say, a lot of people have said that”.
Most journalists I know would have jumped on that and asked – and kept asking if necessary: “Who wrote that and said that, sir? One or two names will suffice”. I would suggest “John Miller” or “John Barron” is probably the answer.
No wonder Mr Trump has been leading the media around by those nose.
12
Here's a youtube of the Khans on MSNBC. Ghazala Khan speaks:
https://youtu.be/qqZirz12x-8?t=4m17s
https://youtu.be/qqZirz12x-8?t=4m17s
3
Thanks for the link. Ghazala Khan speaks as a woman and a mother would. Unlike her husband she made NO political points.
And let us face it, the people who are responsible for Humayun Khan's death are Bush and Cheney AND Hillary who voted to authorize the war in Iraq.
For Hillary to trot our Mr. Khan whose son died in a war which SHE had authorized takes some nerve.
But she can get away with it because the media side with her and keep bashing Trump whose only fault is a lack of sensitivity (which was never his strong point).
And let us face it, the people who are responsible for Humayun Khan's death are Bush and Cheney AND Hillary who voted to authorize the war in Iraq.
For Hillary to trot our Mr. Khan whose son died in a war which SHE had authorized takes some nerve.
But she can get away with it because the media side with her and keep bashing Trump whose only fault is a lack of sensitivity (which was never his strong point).
1
All of msm appears to be afraid of DT(s).
Flabbergasted by their failure to intellectually probe the horror of this alien creature.
Pathetic wimps.
Flabbergasted by their failure to intellectually probe the horror of this alien creature.
Pathetic wimps.
As a naturalized US citizen, and having gone through the long arduous process, I know personally that its not an easy task becoming an immigrant. Its a long and costly process, with numerous FBI checks etc. and you have to prove that you have the ability to be a productive citizen. The US government doesn't hand you immigrant status on a platter. The Republicans and the Donald are creating a totally wrong picture on immigration. Employers do not just hand over jobs to anyone, without checking your legal papers. And as far as your illegal immigrants they are making a fuss, who do you think are your migrant farm workers? The AG industry is totally dependent on these migrant farm workers, ask anyone in California, Iowa, and Michigan to name a few. Without them you would be paying triple for your food.
9
So we need a legal way to allow foreigners to work in some areas. If employers are so careful how to so many work who should not?
Viveka:
You are mistaken about the relationship between farm labor costs and food prices.
For example, a 40% increase in farm labor wage would yield an increase in retail prices of less than 5%.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-with...
You are mistaken about the relationship between farm labor costs and food prices.
For example, a 40% increase in farm labor wage would yield an increase in retail prices of less than 5%.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms-survive-with...
4
'Nationwide, unauthorized immigrants are clustered in a few occupations, notably farming, fishing and forestry (26 percent of the workforce), building and grounds (17 percent), and construction and mining (14 percent). They comprise 24 percent of all groundskeepers, 23 percent of domestic workers and 20 percent of those in clothing manufacture.
In addition, they have carved out niches in certain relatively well-paid construction trades. They hold 34 percent of all jobs in drywall installation, 27 percent in roofing and 24 percent in painting. Passel also noted that many illegal immigrants who overstayed temporary visas have higher education levels that enable them to work in office or technical jobs.'
Pew Report. Not exactly jobs 'Americans won't do'. They are jobs Americans used to do and would still do if illegal immigrants were not here and there were actually legal consequences for hiring them.
In addition, they have carved out niches in certain relatively well-paid construction trades. They hold 34 percent of all jobs in drywall installation, 27 percent in roofing and 24 percent in painting. Passel also noted that many illegal immigrants who overstayed temporary visas have higher education levels that enable them to work in office or technical jobs.'
Pew Report. Not exactly jobs 'Americans won't do'. They are jobs Americans used to do and would still do if illegal immigrants were not here and there were actually legal consequences for hiring them.
7
I think that most people understand that steady stream of legal immigrants has always been critical to this country's prosperity and also believe that there are inequities in our immigration laws that need to be fixed. At the same time, securing our borders is a fundamental responsibility of the federal government. A country that can't secure its borders cannot long remain a country. The nation needs a solution that fixes the laws, grants amnesty to a large portion of the illegal immigrants in the country while simultaneously securing our borders. To grant yet another amnesty without securing our borders (like every other amnesty we've had) would be a major mistake and would do nothing to bring immigration under control.
53
Things have changed. Our country is over populated. We don't need many if any immigrants, especially unskilled ones, or criminal ones, or children without support here, or those with health problems like zika. None.
3
Reagan made that promise of amnesty, with simultaneous stricter enforcement. Instead, illegal immigrants got their wish, and the country, got burned. And even more illegal immigrants.
Thousands, if not millions of whom have breached a lot more than just the laws of this country. But are a menace to a lot else.
Once bitten, no wonder people twice shy about believing a country, that is giving more political clout to people who can't even vote. Now THAT is a serious inequity of epic proportions.
Thousands, if not millions of whom have breached a lot more than just the laws of this country. But are a menace to a lot else.
Once bitten, no wonder people twice shy about believing a country, that is giving more political clout to people who can't even vote. Now THAT is a serious inequity of epic proportions.
3
It is so easy to forget how native Americans --so-called "redskins" -- helped early immigrants [a.k.a settlers] to survive.
And look how we thanked them!
And look how we thanked them!
5
Good point but that we does not include me. My family was not here and perhaps neither was yours. Now we owe a lot to native Americans, more than we could ever repay.
How can we say we want to wipe out poverty AND leave the doors open to any poor person who wants to come here?
How can we say we want to give our citizens the skills they need to compete in the world market, while at the same time filling our cities with people who can't even speak our language?
How can we say we want to put an end to tribalism and divisiveness while at the same time encouraging immigrant ghettos to grow large enough to insulate themselves from the greater community?
How can we say we want to provide more opportunities for minority youngsters while at the same time burdening them with competition from desperate people willing to work for $7 an hour?
How can we think that the stagnation of wages this country has suffered over the last 30 years has nothing to do with the policies our elites have forced on us?
How can we say we want to give our citizens the skills they need to compete in the world market, while at the same time filling our cities with people who can't even speak our language?
How can we say we want to put an end to tribalism and divisiveness while at the same time encouraging immigrant ghettos to grow large enough to insulate themselves from the greater community?
How can we say we want to provide more opportunities for minority youngsters while at the same time burdening them with competition from desperate people willing to work for $7 an hour?
How can we think that the stagnation of wages this country has suffered over the last 30 years has nothing to do with the policies our elites have forced on us?
24
You're right, Dems' minimum wage and immigration policies will just incentivize employers to hire illegal workers, causing fewer jobs for legal residents and higher costs to the taxpayers providing schools, healthcare, housing and other social services for them which their non-taxable wages don't cover for themselves. The vicious cycle continues.
3
The Pew poll on immigration doesn't state the "certain conditions" that illegal aliens must meet for 75% of those polled to agree with amnesty. A condition that all must return home and apply through legal channels would likely gain 100% approval.
3
Obama did what he could for immigration because the republican congress was too lazy or afraid to do anything about it. It is much easier for them to complain than actually do the work we pay them to do. If Hillary has a republican congress, I dont look for her to have much more success getting them to do something other than say NO; we just have to hope we get the senate and a few more spots in the gerrymandered house. Mr. Khan's simple words should make a big impact on everyone, especially the bigots.
3
I'm against all immigration. Let's deport everyone but Native Americans and let the original owners take back their land.
6
"One was the vision presented by speaker after speaker of a nation overrun with foreigners crossing American borders and infiltrating communities to rob and kill."
Actually is was speaker after speaker describing their losses at the hands of violent illegal immigrants. But since the NY Times apparently considers losses such as those to be acceptable collateral damage in the fight for what is imagined social justice they can't address them head on.
Actually is was speaker after speaker describing their losses at the hands of violent illegal immigrants. But since the NY Times apparently considers losses such as those to be acceptable collateral damage in the fight for what is imagined social justice they can't address them head on.
13
There's this beautiful copper-clad statue standing on a large pedestal on a small island in NY Harbor. There are bronze tablets attached to the pedestal bearing the words to a poem titled "The New Colossus"
I suggest that Mr. Trump take the ferry over to that island and read that bit of poetry.
I suggest that Mr. Trump take the ferry over to that island and read that bit of poetry.
84
Such a ferry ride would be a waste to time. Such words could never penetrate the mind of a narcissist like Trump. His mind has a teflon coating around it. Narcissists construct their own world with fabrications in which the real truth has no relevance whatsoever. What is truly sad, is how many mindless Americans cheer Tump on anyway, hoodwinked by the "feel-good" jingoistic potion he spoon feeds them every day.
2
I do not understand what the Statue of Liberty has to do with ILLEGAL immigrants. Could you explain?
7
1886. Women did not have the right to vote, blacks were barely considered human beings, homosexuality was illegal and if you were not a practicing Christian you were obviously of low character and suspect. No workers rights, no wage laws, no health and safety regulations, no personal income tax unless raised for financing wars.
What else should we go back to? Societies must change for the good of their people. Mass unfettered illegal immigration and wide abuse of legal work visas is not in the best interest of the American people.
What else should we go back to? Societies must change for the good of their people. Mass unfettered illegal immigration and wide abuse of legal work visas is not in the best interest of the American people.
5
I'm so looking forward to the day when we have a borderless world. A single central government that guarantees certain welfare/pension/health care benefits to all inhabitants of planet earth. People can move around freely, choosing where to live based not on economics and immigration status but on climate/family/job location. This used to be the case as recently as 100 years ago. Then the welfare state arose in some countries, and voila! We suddenly had guarded borders and all kinds of impediments to immigration/emigration.
It disgusts me that I am rich (relatively speaking--I have a job and clean drinking water, for instance) because I just happened, through no effort of my own, to be born on a particular patch of land. Others who just happened to be born on another patch of land in third world countries are often doomed to a life of abject poverty, not even clean drinking water, and zero opportunities for betterment. It's one of the more despicable aspects of human nature that we all put up with this. I've got mine, and to blazes with the rest of you--right?
Anyone who promised to allow in MORE immigrants, not less, would have my vote. I'm happy to make whatever sacrifices to help starving/struggling people.
It disgusts me that I am rich (relatively speaking--I have a job and clean drinking water, for instance) because I just happened, through no effort of my own, to be born on a particular patch of land. Others who just happened to be born on another patch of land in third world countries are often doomed to a life of abject poverty, not even clean drinking water, and zero opportunities for betterment. It's one of the more despicable aspects of human nature that we all put up with this. I've got mine, and to blazes with the rest of you--right?
Anyone who promised to allow in MORE immigrants, not less, would have my vote. I'm happy to make whatever sacrifices to help starving/struggling people.
2
The Times editorial board shows how unfamiliar it is with the facts when it states that Obama "set[ting] a record for aggressive deportations." In fact, Obama started counting turn aways at the border as deportations, and he has been in fact substantially reducing deportations. See https://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/february-12-2013/how-obama-admin... If the facts get in the way of the Leftist agenda, the Left just makes them up.
My suggestion as to how to remove those who are illegally here is to enact substantial but not super high financial penalties on the illegal entrants. This has the benefit of giving the illegal entrants choice as to when they would leave instead of having them arrested and deported. Those who would be doing financially well in the U.S. could stay by paying the penalties. To those who would state this would be impractical, I would suggest that they look at the extreme reporting requirements (and extreme penalties for non-compliance) for American citizens who have bank accounts in foreign countries. If the government can be so creative and extreme in regulating these people (to the extent that many foreign banks don't want Americans as customers), if it had the will, it could do so with respect to illegal entrants.
JD
My suggestion as to how to remove those who are illegally here is to enact substantial but not super high financial penalties on the illegal entrants. This has the benefit of giving the illegal entrants choice as to when they would leave instead of having them arrested and deported. Those who would be doing financially well in the U.S. could stay by paying the penalties. To those who would state this would be impractical, I would suggest that they look at the extreme reporting requirements (and extreme penalties for non-compliance) for American citizens who have bank accounts in foreign countries. If the government can be so creative and extreme in regulating these people (to the extent that many foreign banks don't want Americans as customers), if it had the will, it could do so with respect to illegal entrants.
JD
4
There is an immigration and there is an immigration. There are several problems for which there can't be one single solution.
- Illegal immigrants. Obviously, idea of deporting 11 million people is not feasible. However we need to appreciate the extent of distorting the low end of the labor market they bring, and the fact that high unemployment we see among the minority youth is largely thanks to the "illegals". Solution - secure the border, and create path to legalization (though not to citizenship - the people here illegally should never gain right to vote or to sponsor their relatives).
- Family reunions. While no one could object to the people bringing over their elderly parents or minor children, sponsoring siblings should get another critical look
- H1b visas - we should prohibit their sponsorship by the companies supplying contract employees, period. There should be no problem with Facebook importing a genius software engineer and paying hime $150K - and if the contractors are out of H1b business, existing quotas should be more than enough.
- Green card sponsorship by the employer should be eased, and changes from H1b to green card should be encouraged. This essentially liberates the candidate from the "indentured servitude".
-Refugees - maybe we should create a new "Lautenberg amendment" and give refugee status to those groups that are actually persecuted (Christians, Jazidis, etc.) rather than create red herring by randomly picking from stream of economic migrants?
- Illegal immigrants. Obviously, idea of deporting 11 million people is not feasible. However we need to appreciate the extent of distorting the low end of the labor market they bring, and the fact that high unemployment we see among the minority youth is largely thanks to the "illegals". Solution - secure the border, and create path to legalization (though not to citizenship - the people here illegally should never gain right to vote or to sponsor their relatives).
- Family reunions. While no one could object to the people bringing over their elderly parents or minor children, sponsoring siblings should get another critical look
- H1b visas - we should prohibit their sponsorship by the companies supplying contract employees, period. There should be no problem with Facebook importing a genius software engineer and paying hime $150K - and if the contractors are out of H1b business, existing quotas should be more than enough.
- Green card sponsorship by the employer should be eased, and changes from H1b to green card should be encouraged. This essentially liberates the candidate from the "indentured servitude".
-Refugees - maybe we should create a new "Lautenberg amendment" and give refugee status to those groups that are actually persecuted (Christians, Jazidis, etc.) rather than create red herring by randomly picking from stream of economic migrants?
5
There's no truth in any these words in this editorial. The real truth? Most illegals are unskilled Latinos who are a net drag on the community. They make little effort to learn English, pay little in taxes and contribute nothing here. Sending them home is a rational policy that should be implemented for the good of the American people.
14
they all pay local and state taxes. Without them, our restaurants would close, crops would not get picked, etc.
2
I live in Texas.Come here all your commentators and see what illegal immigration has done.First,you pay for uninsured/underinsured on your auto insurance in case an illegal hits you despite Texas mandatory auto insurance laws.That adds 30% more to my premium.Second,witness illegals walking across the Rio Grande bridges and going to the nearest ER to have their "anchor" baby courtesy of us taxpayers.Third,listen to the Spanish radio broadcasts encouraging illegals to go to the USA for welfare,food stamps,free schools,etc.Four,absorb the fact taxis pick up illegal children and drive them to the orthodontist for free braces courtesy of us hard working taxpayers.Yes,the taxi fare is paid by us too.Five,observe the deterioration of education because classes are geared to the illegals who do not speak english.Six,witness the crime increase created by illegals who head for the border after committing a felony.Yes,all you latte sipping upper East/West Siders come here,experience first hand what really occurs.
29
If Trump had any brains (which he doesn't) he'd make an economic argument against illegal immigration instead of hurling terrible ethnic slurs all over the place. The place to start would be to compare immigration impacts now to what it was in the 1800-1900's.
In the 1800's, we needed lots of unskilled & semi-skilled labor. We don't anymore. Those jobs are vanishing due to automation and off-shoring. Illegal immigrants depress the wages of unskilled workers (as a historical fact, it should be noted that the 1st time Black Americans got a substantial income rise was during WW1, when immigration from Europe was suspended). We have a large number of American youth who should have the first shot at available jobs, at decent wages.
Second, immigrants who came through Ellis Island were screened, with 2% denied admission. It's absurd for any country these days not to screen incoming people.
Third, up until the 1930's, people paid a midwife $5 to deliver their baby. Today, illegal immigrants only pay a $50 fee but that's because the Medicaid system is paying the $25K hospital bill!! And it's not just childbirth we're paying for, it's ALL the hospital costs of illegal immigrants. So businesses get cheap labor but we Americans are basically paying for associated health care costs! How insane is that?
Fourth, ESL costs in schools are skyrocketing. In days past, immigrant kids learned English within 1-2 years, often before even starting school!
In the 1800's, we needed lots of unskilled & semi-skilled labor. We don't anymore. Those jobs are vanishing due to automation and off-shoring. Illegal immigrants depress the wages of unskilled workers (as a historical fact, it should be noted that the 1st time Black Americans got a substantial income rise was during WW1, when immigration from Europe was suspended). We have a large number of American youth who should have the first shot at available jobs, at decent wages.
Second, immigrants who came through Ellis Island were screened, with 2% denied admission. It's absurd for any country these days not to screen incoming people.
Third, up until the 1930's, people paid a midwife $5 to deliver their baby. Today, illegal immigrants only pay a $50 fee but that's because the Medicaid system is paying the $25K hospital bill!! And it's not just childbirth we're paying for, it's ALL the hospital costs of illegal immigrants. So businesses get cheap labor but we Americans are basically paying for associated health care costs! How insane is that?
Fourth, ESL costs in schools are skyrocketing. In days past, immigrant kids learned English within 1-2 years, often before even starting school!
13
I'm all in favor of bringing about 40-50 million smart immigrants from around the World, but in return, can we deport 40-50 million of the native born stupid ones? America has a lot of dead weight we need to get rid of.
9
There is much this editorial gets right, including the appropriate rejection of Mr. Trump’s inflammatory rhetoric. At the same time, the Times’ continues to ignore an essential truth: people who enter this country illegally are breaking the law; they are not, as a previous Times’ editorial put it, “law abiding.” Such doublespeak is, like Mr. Trump, counterproductive.
The United States is indeed a nation of immigrants, and immigration helped make us the great nation we are today. But here we speak of legal immigrants – those who made the necessary effort to learn our rules and our laws, and to follow them.
Ignoring our laws with amnesty after amnesty is not a rational response. The Simpson-Mazzoli Act of 1986 provided one of the first large scale amnesties of the modern era; the intent was to accompany a broad amnesty with a crackdown on future illegal immigration; but the legal rules provided to prevent illegal entry were not strong enough.
A succession of amnesties simply encourages countless others to disregard out laws, and illegally enter the country. Encouraging widespread disregard of the law is never a good thing. Further, it is grossly unfair to immigrants who come here in conformity with our rules.
We need to reach agreement on an immigration law, and follow it, as was the intent with Simpson-Mazzoli. Until we pass new legislation reforming our policy, we should follow the existing law. An unending string of amnesties for lawbreakers is not the answer.
The United States is indeed a nation of immigrants, and immigration helped make us the great nation we are today. But here we speak of legal immigrants – those who made the necessary effort to learn our rules and our laws, and to follow them.
Ignoring our laws with amnesty after amnesty is not a rational response. The Simpson-Mazzoli Act of 1986 provided one of the first large scale amnesties of the modern era; the intent was to accompany a broad amnesty with a crackdown on future illegal immigration; but the legal rules provided to prevent illegal entry were not strong enough.
A succession of amnesties simply encourages countless others to disregard out laws, and illegally enter the country. Encouraging widespread disregard of the law is never a good thing. Further, it is grossly unfair to immigrants who come here in conformity with our rules.
We need to reach agreement on an immigration law, and follow it, as was the intent with Simpson-Mazzoli. Until we pass new legislation reforming our policy, we should follow the existing law. An unending string of amnesties for lawbreakers is not the answer.
4
As the Democrats roll out the immigrant parents of war heroes to prove a point, can one assume it is now ok to talk about mandatory military service to win citizenship for one's relatives?
It worked for my Polish grandparents who emigrated to America in the 1920s.
After having 5 sons serve in WWII, losing one in combat with 2 others earning a Purple Heart after being wounded in combat, my 4 grandparents never again felt like lesser Americans because they were not born here. I remember my grandmother riding in a special Gold Star Mothers limo in our local 4th of July parade, reserved for mothers who had lost a son in service to our country.
Why not award-- for every 2 years of service to our country -- the right to every soldier to have one next of kin gain citizenship status,, regardless of how they entered the country? What sensible argument can be made against this proposal?
It worked for my Polish grandparents who emigrated to America in the 1920s.
After having 5 sons serve in WWII, losing one in combat with 2 others earning a Purple Heart after being wounded in combat, my 4 grandparents never again felt like lesser Americans because they were not born here. I remember my grandmother riding in a special Gold Star Mothers limo in our local 4th of July parade, reserved for mothers who had lost a son in service to our country.
Why not award-- for every 2 years of service to our country -- the right to every soldier to have one next of kin gain citizenship status,, regardless of how they entered the country? What sensible argument can be made against this proposal?
4
Be careful what you wish for.
Thank you for writing this Editors....and now that we have come this far...
and have gotten our ....so called news....from watching commercial TV..
Let's have some Public Forums sponsored by the media who are truly
academics....who actually teach the subjects which are at issue;
and why....because most are simply believing what the news cycle spinners
are ...just spinning as "truth"...
So ...this article is a start...but there needs to be actually an Oxford Debate
Forum....as a public service....because the surrogates for Hillary; for Bernie
who really ARE the Democratic Platform; and the surrogates for Donald J.
Trump...and whatever can possibly called not the GOP Platform...unless it
depends just on Mike Pence...
Let's get started....so that reason can take place...because Editors...we
know that OPNIONS only are not the way to come to any logical conclusions
so...begin with another topic....say...Campaign Finance Reform...just
Take a issue which has been "spun" and is obvious bias and just nonsense
and ....inform your readers....and better yet....make some documentaries and
get back to being what you should be...this is a start...but go into debate.
and have gotten our ....so called news....from watching commercial TV..
Let's have some Public Forums sponsored by the media who are truly
academics....who actually teach the subjects which are at issue;
and why....because most are simply believing what the news cycle spinners
are ...just spinning as "truth"...
So ...this article is a start...but there needs to be actually an Oxford Debate
Forum....as a public service....because the surrogates for Hillary; for Bernie
who really ARE the Democratic Platform; and the surrogates for Donald J.
Trump...and whatever can possibly called not the GOP Platform...unless it
depends just on Mike Pence...
Let's get started....so that reason can take place...because Editors...we
know that OPNIONS only are not the way to come to any logical conclusions
so...begin with another topic....say...Campaign Finance Reform...just
Take a issue which has been "spun" and is obvious bias and just nonsense
and ....inform your readers....and better yet....make some documentaries and
get back to being what you should be...this is a start...but go into debate.
The republican vitriol against illegal immigrants (and actually against all non-European immigrants - even legal ones) is so vehement for only one real reason. You see, most immigrants vote democrat. If those illegally here become legal, they will vote democrat. That is the problem. Republicans have said the absolute exact same things about blacks - for the exact same reasons. If immigrants voted republican, you would have them championing paths to citizenship overnight.
Industries that funnel money to republicans, and republican constituencies that include agriculture, meat packing, construction, hospitality - are all largely dependent on illegal immigrants without rights. The republican nightmare is that they would lose power if they became legals.
I admire Trump for saying out loud what every republican believes, and all republicans say when they know no one is overhearing. He is not the smelly underbelly of republicans, he is the epitome of what this sorry party has become; a bunch of extremist thugs who would burn the village down if they don't have their way absolutely all the time.
Kalidan
Industries that funnel money to republicans, and republican constituencies that include agriculture, meat packing, construction, hospitality - are all largely dependent on illegal immigrants without rights. The republican nightmare is that they would lose power if they became legals.
I admire Trump for saying out loud what every republican believes, and all republicans say when they know no one is overhearing. He is not the smelly underbelly of republicans, he is the epitome of what this sorry party has become; a bunch of extremist thugs who would burn the village down if they don't have their way absolutely all the time.
Kalidan
3
The background of many illegal immigrants and the future role they could play in the American electorate are two major factors swaying popular opinion on immigration policy. For many in the Republican party, granting more people of color a path to citizenship runs counter to their political embrace of white privilege and racial inequality. Their opposition to reasonable immigration policies that guarantee basic human rights, promote American economic interests, reward good behavior and protect children by strengthening families is another way of resisting demographic changes and the democratic and moral values such proposals are designed to promote. It is part of a twisted strategy that sells their resistance to immigration reform as a way of protecting the rule of law, while in fact exploiting the social anxieties of members of a poorly educated, blue collar white population and others who have suffered due to the loss of industrial jobs, and who therefore, are susceptible to racist understandings of humanity and entitlement.
3
We focus too much on the immigrant and not enough on the employer. If immigrants were unable to become employed, the numbers would fall drastically. If visa programs were tightened so we made sure that qualified citizens were hired before imported workers willing to work for lower wages, this would be a benefit. We vilify the immigrant, but do nothing to hold employers accountable who exploit these workers (as Mr. Trump reportedly has done). Comprehensive immigration reform needs to be two-pronged - yes we need to focus on limiting illegal immigration - but we also need to crack down on employers who are hiring undocumented workers at cheap wages and exploiting visa programs in order to hire skilled workers at lower wages than they would have to pay citizens.
219
Yes, the employer should be heavily fined and imprisoned for hiring illegal aliens, but that does not exonerate the illegal alien any more than lax store or bank security that allows a thief to steal. Because banks might not have airtight security is not an open invitation for thieves to come walking in and rob it.
1
I add to these thoughts, limit employers hiring of "out-sourced" people who live outside US. Data center and tech support persons are the most popularly known examples.
2
Unless we move to the totally cash-less society, there will be no reasonable way from preventing the car wash owner, landscape contractor, or roofer from hiring daily laborers for cash - which is no less illegal (tax evasion) than the status of the people they hire. For that matter, if YOU hire a cleaning lady you are contributing to the same problem. With the border secured, there will be less opportunity for an illegal behavior by everyone.
The Times is always talking about "sensible immigration reform," and it always boils down to the same thing: if you come here illegally, you get to be a citizen.
13
Controversial as immigration may be, the United States are made up of immigrants; and the newer they are, the harder they work to contribute to the economy and to become assimilated, a distinct plus no one can deny...although the republicans keep trying to demonize the very folks that make things easier for everybody. The G.O.P. disregard for the truth, and reality as is, is petty indeed, a willful ignorance of the facts bordering on malice, akin to its persistent obstructionism to any and all proposals made by Obama, highly suggestive of shameful racial undertones.
11
The US is not made up of illegal immigrants. Please don't defame the relatives of Americans who came before, such as through Ellis Island, with respect for our laws and sovereignty.
7
No individual on Earth is illegal, as we all have a purpose to fill, a life to live. Undocumented perhaps, but still contrinuting mightily, especially in all those menial jobs you and I shy away from. Please, do not judge that easily, its not good for your 'heart', nor justice. The laws written by us may be legal but not always moral nor just.
1
The Times claims Trump's stance on stronger immigration reform is not based upon facts yet all they do is rely upon an opinion poll. Nice straw man with the incorrect assertion that Obama has been one of the most "aggressive" recent administrations. Outside of the Times reader base, I would imagine most Americans would disagree with Trump on the hyperbole, but would agree with him that stronger security measures long overdue.
9
It appears that for the NY Times it's either their way or the evil way. There are no alternatives in the NY Times' editorial board's view.
1
Donald Trump doesn't state facts, or if he ever does, he mixes them with many lies and misguided personal opinions. He plays on peoples' fears, based on the actions of just a few. WE are not under attack by immigrants, but by people who have no trouble getting their hands on weapons in this country. The squeakiest wheels get the most grease, and the most attention, including Donald Trump. This is how he has run his campaign at the expense of others.
2
I have never known the Times to distinguish between "legal" and "illegal" when writing about immigration or immigrants.. Perhaps they do not know the difference. But America does. Just watch......
2
Unless immigration is understood as a corollary of globalization, or the migration of capital via FDI and outsourcing, the moral and legal frames are deficient to inform or explain this phenomenon. Indeed there is more flow of profits from the global south the of their people. Transnational companies outsource, like Apple with Foxconn in China, the assembly of their products regardless of the laws and human rights professed in that country. Their moral and legal considerations are usually overridden by their need to increase profits. So legality and morality has the obverse side. If we look in, we need to look out to assess the process of which migration is only a side effect.
Not mentioned here is the nefarious effect of TNC and FDI effect on rural populations, which are forced out of their lands to overcrowded cities. Jobs there are not very good. See the super exploitation of labor in China through examples like Apple and Nike. Similar corporations, like the big clothing brands, can wash their hands while workers in Bangladesh die because the company hired to outsource their products don't have fire protocols. They basically don't care much about the non-migrating labor that adds value to the products we consume here.
Not mentioned here is the nefarious effect of TNC and FDI effect on rural populations, which are forced out of their lands to overcrowded cities. Jobs there are not very good. See the super exploitation of labor in China through examples like Apple and Nike. Similar corporations, like the big clothing brands, can wash their hands while workers in Bangladesh die because the company hired to outsource their products don't have fire protocols. They basically don't care much about the non-migrating labor that adds value to the products we consume here.
25
When NAFTA was conceived and passed it was meant as a deterrent to the Mexican illegal immigration. American companies could relocate to Mexico and pay good wages which would keep the Mexicans in their country. American corporations in search of lower wages set up shop, not in the areas from which Mexicans were coming but along the Rio Grande. Additionally the paid about $4.00/day to the Mexicans and avoided all health and safety regulations and environmental regulations. This has been the real motivation behind our trade deals - the desire for more profits for our capitalist class. A lot less so for workers in the manufacturing sector whose workers are now expressing their anger over their inability to get jobs that pay. As was pointed out by every union in the country at the time NAFTA was passed, and every subsequent trade deal as well, the American worker now competes with the lowest paid workers in Bangladesh.
And here we are today with the republican party, who claims to be for the middle class they worked so hard to destroy, nominating a man who makes much of his money on businesses that he shipped overseas, who hires undocumented workers in his hotels, and fights unionization at his casinos all at the expense of the workers who he is now trying to get to vote for him. It don't get any screwier than this!
And here we are today with the republican party, who claims to be for the middle class they worked so hard to destroy, nominating a man who makes much of his money on businesses that he shipped overseas, who hires undocumented workers in his hotels, and fights unionization at his casinos all at the expense of the workers who he is now trying to get to vote for him. It don't get any screwier than this!
1
Commenters here claim that they only have a problem with illegal immigration, or they want to let in only people with certain skills.
This is a nation of immigrants.
100 years ago, millions of uneducated Jews and Italians poured into NY forever changing this city ( obviously, as we can see from today's perspective, it was positive). (Just before them came a huge wave of Irish fleeing famine.)
The Republicans so hated these Jews and Italians that they changed our immigration laws, making it illegal to do exactly what these good hard- working immigrants did, coming here to make a better life for their family and to contribute to America, our current broken immigration system is the fault of Republicans, who continue to obstruct any attempt to fix it.
As for "skills"-- what about love of family and country and willingness to work hard at any available job? The grandchildren of the great wave of immigrants of 100 years ago, so hated by Republicans, include a substantial fraction of America's Nobel Prize winners in Medicine.
As for faith, as Mr. Khan said, go to Arlington and look at the grave stones. And while you are there, put a flower on a soldier's grave,
This is a nation of immigrants.
100 years ago, millions of uneducated Jews and Italians poured into NY forever changing this city ( obviously, as we can see from today's perspective, it was positive). (Just before them came a huge wave of Irish fleeing famine.)
The Republicans so hated these Jews and Italians that they changed our immigration laws, making it illegal to do exactly what these good hard- working immigrants did, coming here to make a better life for their family and to contribute to America, our current broken immigration system is the fault of Republicans, who continue to obstruct any attempt to fix it.
As for "skills"-- what about love of family and country and willingness to work hard at any available job? The grandchildren of the great wave of immigrants of 100 years ago, so hated by Republicans, include a substantial fraction of America's Nobel Prize winners in Medicine.
As for faith, as Mr. Khan said, go to Arlington and look at the grave stones. And while you are there, put a flower on a soldier's grave,
79
We need unskilled illiterate labor like we need more horses. You are 100 years out of date.
10
"our current broken immigration system is the fault of Republicans, who continue to obstruct any attempt to fix it."
Please, we have immigration laws that are followed by many immigrants. The inability by illegal immigrants to do does not mean the laws are "broken".
Please, we have immigration laws that are followed by many immigrants. The inability by illegal immigrants to do does not mean the laws are "broken".
5
Including the undocumented, the percent of foreign born Americans is higher than ever before. When it comes to immigration, you suggest the more the merrier. For good reason, there have always been limits. The more the merrier has never been US policy.
4
It may surprise many readers, but the Constitution "follows the flag" for non-citizens, and generally applies to US actions against citizens universally.
Thus, if you are a non-citizen outside of US jurisdiction, you certainly can be treated by the US Government in ways considered discriminatory if it happened on US Territory.
Thus, many of the discussions on treatment of non citizens outside US Territory can be argued on the basis of policy, or humanity. But not on the basis of Constitutional right.
Thus, if you are a non-citizen outside of US jurisdiction, you certainly can be treated by the US Government in ways considered discriminatory if it happened on US Territory.
Thus, many of the discussions on treatment of non citizens outside US Territory can be argued on the basis of policy, or humanity. But not on the basis of Constitutional right.
13
You confuse the point. Trump at various times has proposed to limit the rights of muslims, including citizens, that are legally in the U.S. The is clearly against the freedom of religion that is embodied in the first amendment.
3
Freedom of religion does not mean that you can infringe on civil rights law or be forced to make public accommodations for someone else's religious beliefs. Recent attempts at separating men and women at public facilities, mandatory breaks at work for prayer, denial of service to those who go against the providers beliefs, and even domestic civil liberties have all been challenged by Muslims in this country.
Freedom of religion does not mean that all other Constitutionally guaranteed rights are subservient.
Freedom of religion does not mean that all other Constitutionally guaranteed rights are subservient.
1
@ RM
Your comment makes absolutely no sense. The US government has absolutely no reach over non-citizens outside of US jurisdiction.
As to non-citizens within the US, the one this article is about, non-citizens inside its borders are protected in most ways just like citizens under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution. I suggest you read it.
Your comment makes absolutely no sense. The US government has absolutely no reach over non-citizens outside of US jurisdiction.
As to non-citizens within the US, the one this article is about, non-citizens inside its borders are protected in most ways just like citizens under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution. I suggest you read it.
4
Trump's suggestion of temporarily banning Muslims because of their religious beliefs is because the vast majority of now daily terrorist acts have been committed by Muslims because of those religious beliefs.
While few people think all Muslims immigrants are terrorists, no one of any intelligence believes that none of them will be.
As a matter of fact and percentages, there is no doubt that some of them will be and more Americans will be die.
Since the harm done by even one terrorist is horrific - as anyone who watches network news that is not just the usual political propaganda and grandstanding - is well aware of, why should the US, or any country, take the chance of more importing even more religious fundamentalists, when we have more than enough homegrown?
In other words, what is it for America and Americans?
And why is that question not at the top of the list?
Actual rational answers to these questions, rather than the usual ad hominem attacks by NYTs echo chamber would be appreciated.
While few people think all Muslims immigrants are terrorists, no one of any intelligence believes that none of them will be.
As a matter of fact and percentages, there is no doubt that some of them will be and more Americans will be die.
Since the harm done by even one terrorist is horrific - as anyone who watches network news that is not just the usual political propaganda and grandstanding - is well aware of, why should the US, or any country, take the chance of more importing even more religious fundamentalists, when we have more than enough homegrown?
In other words, what is it for America and Americans?
And why is that question not at the top of the list?
Actual rational answers to these questions, rather than the usual ad hominem attacks by NYTs echo chamber would be appreciated.
82
A question more relevant to the violent deaths of tens of thousands of Americans each year: not all gun owners are violent, but enough are to cause tragedy after tragedy on a daily basis. So, by your same logic, would you say that the priority ( in terms of saving American lives) is to ban all guns from being manufactured?
Note that Humayan Khan SAVED the lives of at least 10 Americans, and that immigrants from all countries contribute to our country every day.
Note that Humayan Khan SAVED the lives of at least 10 Americans, and that immigrants from all countries contribute to our country every day.
89
Extreme cases make bad policy. Read the research from the American Immigration Council this story links to. I did, and I learned that statistically, if I am victimized by crime, the perp is twice as likely to be my neighbor than an immigrant, legal or not. I also learned about a vast for-profit prison industry that is raking big bucks from the criminalization of immigrants.
Even moderate Republicans recognize that most immigrants come here, with or without documents, as "an act of love," including love for our way of life. OK, some them sneak in. Have you never jaywalked, parked illegally, driven home from the bar? As we harden our hearts against the undocumented, and alienate them the way European immigrants are ostracized and ghettoized, we can expect more of the kind of attacks Europe is going through.
Even moderate Republicans recognize that most immigrants come here, with or without documents, as "an act of love," including love for our way of life. OK, some them sneak in. Have you never jaywalked, parked illegally, driven home from the bar? As we harden our hearts against the undocumented, and alienate them the way European immigrants are ostracized and ghettoized, we can expect more of the kind of attacks Europe is going through.
4
Thanks Lynn. Perfect volley.
3
We have a northern border
Funny how that never comes up,
Ummm I WONDER WHY???
Can’t spot that Northern Border cross-over huh,
COULD IT BE……THAT it’s not about a border but about OTHER things, skin tone, ethnic contempt, that preoccupy the mindset of the GOP and those that support Donald DrumpF! 'Bill the Butcher' from Gangs of New York also does well.
Funny how that never comes up,
Ummm I WONDER WHY???
Can’t spot that Northern Border cross-over huh,
COULD IT BE……THAT it’s not about a border but about OTHER things, skin tone, ethnic contempt, that preoccupy the mindset of the GOP and those that support Donald DrumpF! 'Bill the Butcher' from Gangs of New York also does well.
19
A porous northern border is how we wound up with Justin Beiber.
97
Let's build a wall across our northern boarder. I suspect if Trump is elected, Canada would be more than happy to pay for it.
3
How many of the 11 million illegal aliens came through our northern border? Better yet how many are Canadian? Focusing on where the problem actually is isn't racist, simply fact based.
8
You're intentionally avoiding the elephant in the room. Ethnic homogeneity.
The immigration issue is about white folks feeling like they're losing their zero sum percentage of the population pie. Issues like crime or terrorism are dog whistles for that anxiety, mostly because western society does not openly embrace nationalism. They should.
The usual excuses like "we've always been a nation of immigrants", or "everyone is an immigrant", do not address the problems of diversity. Self-interested humans will maximize their ethnic monopoly on power and wealth, irrational humans succumb to the delusion of egalitarianism -- something that has never, and should never, be allowed to happen.
Whites rightfully see their power slipping away, and will vote for anyone, even Trump, to preserve it. This is the right thing to do, from their standpoint. The native Americans fought the settlers for the sake of their own ethnic interests, as they should have. If America was majority Chinese, I would fight for the continuing demographic dominance of Chinese people. I expect nothing less from any group of self-respecting people.
If you really do wish to preserve a sense of harmony, then you will have to address the racial interests of the majority, and not merely handwave them away as "racism" or derail into economics. Once America can do that, then solutions and compromise and be discussed.
The immigration issue is about white folks feeling like they're losing their zero sum percentage of the population pie. Issues like crime or terrorism are dog whistles for that anxiety, mostly because western society does not openly embrace nationalism. They should.
The usual excuses like "we've always been a nation of immigrants", or "everyone is an immigrant", do not address the problems of diversity. Self-interested humans will maximize their ethnic monopoly on power and wealth, irrational humans succumb to the delusion of egalitarianism -- something that has never, and should never, be allowed to happen.
Whites rightfully see their power slipping away, and will vote for anyone, even Trump, to preserve it. This is the right thing to do, from their standpoint. The native Americans fought the settlers for the sake of their own ethnic interests, as they should have. If America was majority Chinese, I would fight for the continuing demographic dominance of Chinese people. I expect nothing less from any group of self-respecting people.
If you really do wish to preserve a sense of harmony, then you will have to address the racial interests of the majority, and not merely handwave them away as "racism" or derail into economics. Once America can do that, then solutions and compromise and be discussed.
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@ Ryan Wei - Ryan, you get one point for using a word hard for commenters to use, ethnicity. As for homogeneity within what the USCB calls "races" you are aware that the American white "race" (a non-scientific concept) includes people born in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Kurdistan and more.
And what exactly do you mean by racial interests?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
And what exactly do you mean by racial interests?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
3
But of course that is racism. Why is our country's motto E Pluribus Unum? Is it a self serving fiction like "All Men Are Created Equal" written by a slave owning aristocrat? Remember how his anxieties were finally addressed in a civil war that cost 600,000 casualties? We can do better.
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At some point it became "racist" and "xenophobic" to request folks to obey the immigration laws of the US.
These seem to be reasonable requests. But then requesting that someone not grab for a police officer's firearm also seems reasonable.
These seem to be reasonable requests. But then requesting that someone not grab for a police officer's firearm also seems reasonable.
2
(reposted with correction)
Mr. Khan was a noble soul, and made the ultimate sacrifice that any American citizen can make to defend our country.
By speaking at the DNC convention and deriding a political candidate, his parents unarguably politicized his death.
Those speaking against guns at the DNC were right to do so, because gun control has become a political issue and if that is the way to fight it, so be it.
But that is not the case with Mr. Khan. Politics is dirty and we do not wish our soldiers to be sullied by political mudslinging that will ensue.
I cringed when Chris Kyle's sacrifice was politicized by his wife and Republicans, to score a political point for guns.
(Those with fake non-Muslim names, do not bother to react to this post.)
Mr. Khan was a noble soul, and made the ultimate sacrifice that any American citizen can make to defend our country.
By speaking at the DNC convention and deriding a political candidate, his parents unarguably politicized his death.
Those speaking against guns at the DNC were right to do so, because gun control has become a political issue and if that is the way to fight it, so be it.
But that is not the case with Mr. Khan. Politics is dirty and we do not wish our soldiers to be sullied by political mudslinging that will ensue.
I cringed when Chris Kyle's sacrifice was politicized by his wife and Republicans, to score a political point for guns.
(Those with fake non-Muslim names, do not bother to react to this post.)
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What are your thoughts of the hate speech by the Benghazi mother at the RNC?
4
Bhaskar
Trump politicized the issue by tarring all Muslims with one brush. Not to respond is to leave the field to Trump. The politicization of Benghazi, with its endless $7 million witch hunt was far worse..
Trump politicized the issue by tarring all Muslims with one brush. Not to respond is to leave the field to Trump. The politicization of Benghazi, with its endless $7 million witch hunt was far worse..
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@ Deirdre, Geoffrey,
I agree with you. The Republicans believe that they are the official advocates and hold exclusive privilege to advocate for our soldiers. The sham Benghazi "investigation" that they put us through only reinforced that their vested interests in fighting for our men and women in uniform, are mainly to score political points.
I agree with you. The Republicans believe that they are the official advocates and hold exclusive privilege to advocate for our soldiers. The sham Benghazi "investigation" that they put us through only reinforced that their vested interests in fighting for our men and women in uniform, are mainly to score political points.
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Why is it that the nyt cannot honestly portray the counter argument? First we are talking about illegal immigrants, some of whom are violent criminals which is inarguable. Second we are a country of more than 300 Million with a GDP growth of less than 1.5% that cannot (under "progressive" policies) support even actual citizens of this country. The strain on our infrastructure schools, hospitals, etc, is leaving natural born citizens behind.
It is not about racism, it is about pragmatism which if our politicians don't adopt then it might just be forced upon them.
It is not about racism, it is about pragmatism which if our politicians don't adopt then it might just be forced upon them.
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Jacobi, as I remarked above. The number of unauthorized immigrants has gone steadily down since 2007. There are over a million fewer now than then.
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Once again the NYT editorial board ignores the fact that there is a big difference between legal and illegal immigration. Ask someone if he/she is opposed to LEGAL immigration and you will get very few positive responses. Ask someone if he/she is opposed to ILLEGAL immigration and you will get very few negative responses.
The real issues are how many legal immigrants (and with what qualifications) do we want to allow, and how do we reduce illegal immigration? I don't have an answer to the first part, but to reduce illegal immigration we need to implement e-Verify and severely punish employers who hire those not here legally. No need for a wall, no need for mass deportation, no need for a "path to citizenship."
And if you think e-Verify has too many errors, I'll make you a deal. Implement e-Verify for employment and use the the terrorist watch list to preclude someone from buying a gun. Same rules of appeal if you think there is mistake.
The real issues are how many legal immigrants (and with what qualifications) do we want to allow, and how do we reduce illegal immigration? I don't have an answer to the first part, but to reduce illegal immigration we need to implement e-Verify and severely punish employers who hire those not here legally. No need for a wall, no need for mass deportation, no need for a "path to citizenship."
And if you think e-Verify has too many errors, I'll make you a deal. Implement e-Verify for employment and use the the terrorist watch list to preclude someone from buying a gun. Same rules of appeal if you think there is mistake.
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@ Jim Waddell - I have two comments awaiting review that develop your criticism of the NYT Editors (and other writers). There are many kinds of immigration and therefore there must be as many kinds of analyses as there are kinds. Khizr Khan illustrates one kind, arrive as student at Harvard and then follow some path, not yet discussed, to citizenship.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
1
And landlords, it not legal in this country to sign a lease or buy a house without a co-signer, when your status is a foreign national without documentation such as a visa.
1
"The real issues are how many legal immigrants (and with what qualifications) do we want to allow, and how do we reduce illegal immigration? " This statement by Jim Waddell nails it. Over my life time the population of the US has more than doubled. Is this the demographic trajectory that we want and for how long will it be sustained? Many countries including the US are not sustainable by their own natural resources. There will be a future reckoning.
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I'm a diehard Dem. I will not vote for Trump. He's a sexist creep.
But nothing, nothing, NOTHING is more elitist than the Dem's hispandering and open borders stance. Nothing is more contemptuous of the working class than demanding we let in yet more unskilled Latinos here.
Enough already.
I'm sure in the hallowed halls of the New York Times, there are no problems with the massive importation of millions of unskilled Latinos. For the rest of us, those of us who do not make half a million a year, these people are a huge burden. The majority make no effort to learn English, frequently work off the books paying no taxes at all and have no problem using social services the expect the rest of us to pay for. We face increased taxes as a result of their invasion and decreased job opportunities if we dare fail to learn Spanish to appease them.
It is time for the Dems to stand up for the people they were elected to represent: the American people, not foreigners who break our laws and expect the right to dictate our society.
Latino efforts would be better directed towards increasing the Latino graduation rate and decreasing the Latino poverty right rather than demanding the right to flood this country with yet more unskilled Latinos merely because they are Latino.
But nothing, nothing, NOTHING is more elitist than the Dem's hispandering and open borders stance. Nothing is more contemptuous of the working class than demanding we let in yet more unskilled Latinos here.
Enough already.
I'm sure in the hallowed halls of the New York Times, there are no problems with the massive importation of millions of unskilled Latinos. For the rest of us, those of us who do not make half a million a year, these people are a huge burden. The majority make no effort to learn English, frequently work off the books paying no taxes at all and have no problem using social services the expect the rest of us to pay for. We face increased taxes as a result of their invasion and decreased job opportunities if we dare fail to learn Spanish to appease them.
It is time for the Dems to stand up for the people they were elected to represent: the American people, not foreigners who break our laws and expect the right to dictate our society.
Latino efforts would be better directed towards increasing the Latino graduation rate and decreasing the Latino poverty right rather than demanding the right to flood this country with yet more unskilled Latinos merely because they are Latino.
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And the responsibility of the employers is what?
2
Do you have a group of white Americans limed up and ready to pick crops, clean hotels, work in kitchens, work as landscapers? The truth is we do need immigrants to do the important jobs that Americans won't do. Ask the owners of these businesses why they ignore e-verification. It's because the hotels will be dirty and crops will rot in the fields.
Do you eat lettuce?
This editorial is very confusing because it does not specify if they are talking about legal immigration or illegal immigration. Since the vast majority of Republicans support legal immigration, including from Mexico, I must assume they are speaking of illegal immigration.
And please know that Sweden did not become the rape capital of the western world because of Erik and Viktor immigrating from Lapland. It is due to Ahmed and Muhammad coming from countries where they could not be properly vetted.
And don't forget about the jobs minority American citizens, particularly the youth, are not getting because they are being filled by illegal alians, especially in "sanctuary cities". The Democrats creation of sanctuary cities is the most egregious exampke of institutional racism this country has seen in many years.
And please know that Sweden did not become the rape capital of the western world because of Erik and Viktor immigrating from Lapland. It is due to Ahmed and Muhammad coming from countries where they could not be properly vetted.
And don't forget about the jobs minority American citizens, particularly the youth, are not getting because they are being filled by illegal alians, especially in "sanctuary cities". The Democrats creation of sanctuary cities is the most egregious exampke of institutional racism this country has seen in many years.
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You and a few other posters must be using the same talking points, or plagiarizing from each other.
If you knew what institutional racism is you would know that those words don't have anything to do with sanctuary cities, which, by the way, are not created by the Democrats; it's a decision made by local politicians.
If you knew what institutional racism is you would know that those words don't have anything to do with sanctuary cities, which, by the way, are not created by the Democrats; it's a decision made by local politicians.
"A Few Simple Truths on Immigration".
Democrats, including the editorial pages of the NY Times continually either flaunt the law or encourage others to do so. Allowing illegal immigrants to speak at the Democratic convention hardly inspires trust in their leadership or intentions. When will the editors here understand that democracy depends on the rule of law? Perhaps a prerequisite for their employment should be a years service on the border patrol.
Democrats, including the editorial pages of the NY Times continually either flaunt the law or encourage others to do so. Allowing illegal immigrants to speak at the Democratic convention hardly inspires trust in their leadership or intentions. When will the editors here understand that democracy depends on the rule of law? Perhaps a prerequisite for their employment should be a years service on the border patrol.
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If 12 million illegal immigrants are granted citizenship, it will constitute one of the largest voter disenfranchisement schemes in the history of the U.S.
Most of the illegals immigrants are Hispanic, who vote for Democrats over Republicans by about a 70% to 30% margin. That will yield a net gain of 5 million new Democrat voters. The effect will be to turn FL, VA, and CO permanently blue, and turn states like NC and AZ into swing states. The result will be that no Republicans will reach the White House for 20-30 years.
This is precisely what Democrats planned when they failed to protect the borders and created sanctuary cities.
One solution to legalize illegal immigrants is an expanded guest worker program. They can stay, but never, ever get citizenship. This would address the stated concerns about bringing them out of the shadows, but also avoid disenfranchising current citizens.
Most of the illegals immigrants are Hispanic, who vote for Democrats over Republicans by about a 70% to 30% margin. That will yield a net gain of 5 million new Democrat voters. The effect will be to turn FL, VA, and CO permanently blue, and turn states like NC and AZ into swing states. The result will be that no Republicans will reach the White House for 20-30 years.
This is precisely what Democrats planned when they failed to protect the borders and created sanctuary cities.
One solution to legalize illegal immigrants is an expanded guest worker program. They can stay, but never, ever get citizenship. This would address the stated concerns about bringing them out of the shadows, but also avoid disenfranchising current citizens.
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Illegal
Illegal immigrants can't vote.
Illegal immigrants can't vote.
1
"Most of the illegals immigrants are Hispanic, who vote for Democrats over Republicans by about a 70% to 30% margin."
Hispanics may vote that way, but I have seen no evidence that illegal immigrants have been voting and influencing our elections. Have you?
Hispanics may vote that way, but I have seen no evidence that illegal immigrants have been voting and influencing our elections. Have you?
3
Yes, yes, it's a vast liberal conspiracy....The Democratic party does not designate sanctuary cities. That is left to the cities to decide.
A guest worker program is all many undocumented immigrants ask for. They don't want to come here illegally, but for poor Hispanics, there is no other choice; there is no line to get into. Workers staying, and bringing their families with them, instead of coming and going with the seasons is one of the unintended consequences of tougher border control. People who have dealt with the immigration system or have someone close that has know how crazy the current immigration system is. Not many other people have any idea how the immigration system works.
A guest worker program is all many undocumented immigrants ask for. They don't want to come here illegally, but for poor Hispanics, there is no other choice; there is no line to get into. Workers staying, and bringing their families with them, instead of coming and going with the seasons is one of the unintended consequences of tougher border control. People who have dealt with the immigration system or have someone close that has know how crazy the current immigration system is. Not many other people have any idea how the immigration system works.
1
Interesting how this article is trying to blur the line between immigrants who follow the legal process and come here legally and illegal aliens (I know, we can't say that now can we. We have to use "undocumented immigrants" but this article won't even use that term. They're trying to pretend that immigrants and illegal aliens are now the same thing.)
I imagine many if not most Americans are ok with immigrants coming here. But NYTimes refuses to believe that most Americans, including Democrats, are not for people coming here illegally. If the country believes we need low skilled labor to work certain jobs then why aren't lawmakers opening up more positions for low skilled immigrants to come here legally?
The Democratic party refuses to acknowledge that this issue alone is turning lots of people against them. Trump certainly knows it. And by the way, Mr. and Mrs. Khan were not illegal immigrants.
I imagine many if not most Americans are ok with immigrants coming here. But NYTimes refuses to believe that most Americans, including Democrats, are not for people coming here illegally. If the country believes we need low skilled labor to work certain jobs then why aren't lawmakers opening up more positions for low skilled immigrants to come here legally?
The Democratic party refuses to acknowledge that this issue alone is turning lots of people against them. Trump certainly knows it. And by the way, Mr. and Mrs. Khan were not illegal immigrants.
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Imagine if the NTTimes started to outsource news writing to other parts of the world, and eliminated American reporters from writing to save money. I would assume that the American reporters, especially those NYTimes reporters would definitely have a different point of view!
5
But the Khans are Muslims. Trump wants to ban all Muslims.
1
Exactly. I was a thirty year Democrat, but blindness to illegal immigration, being a policy of both parties favoring the rich, is complete anathema to me.
5
In the week of July 18, I crossed the Mexico/USA border in both directions at San Ysidro: once by car and once by foot. Both experiences were different.
Mexican citizens with the proper documents were crossing into the US. If those citizens want to stay in the US, they would do like many other visitors do, and that is, remain in the US at the expiration of their legal stay.
I heard second hand and was also told by someone who has been through the process, that if the US border patrol people encounter travelers without papers, at some point, those travelers are asked their age. If under 18, they are further asked if they have relatives in the US. if yes, arrangements are made for those under-18 travelers to unite with the US relatives.
My experience differed from what I had read about crossing the border into Mexico. On driving, I was waved through by a Mexican official.
On walking, I presented ID other than my passport, and as a result, I had to sit for fingerprinting and photographing. At the end, I was free to enter Mexico. I was not searched, I was not issued cards of any kind, I was not asked where I was going or how long I would be in Mexico.
Mexican citizens with the proper documents were crossing into the US. If those citizens want to stay in the US, they would do like many other visitors do, and that is, remain in the US at the expiration of their legal stay.
I heard second hand and was also told by someone who has been through the process, that if the US border patrol people encounter travelers without papers, at some point, those travelers are asked their age. If under 18, they are further asked if they have relatives in the US. if yes, arrangements are made for those under-18 travelers to unite with the US relatives.
My experience differed from what I had read about crossing the border into Mexico. On driving, I was waved through by a Mexican official.
On walking, I presented ID other than my passport, and as a result, I had to sit for fingerprinting and photographing. At the end, I was free to enter Mexico. I was not searched, I was not issued cards of any kind, I was not asked where I was going or how long I would be in Mexico.
8
And...?
Does Mexico have the same concerns regarding US citizens remaining or over staying limited established by Mexican law? Are 11 million plus US citizens living illegally in Mexico? Border crossing aside, do you think you, as a non-citizen of Mexico, would be entitled to health care, education, public assistance, a driver's license, resident college tuition, etc., the same as if you were one of their nationals? (Hint, no!) Do you think Mexico has "sensible" immigration laws that allows all that? Sorry, they don't. You even, gasp and shudder, have to show ID to vote. Who do they think they are, right?
Does Mexico have the same concerns regarding US citizens remaining or over staying limited established by Mexican law? Are 11 million plus US citizens living illegally in Mexico? Border crossing aside, do you think you, as a non-citizen of Mexico, would be entitled to health care, education, public assistance, a driver's license, resident college tuition, etc., the same as if you were one of their nationals? (Hint, no!) Do you think Mexico has "sensible" immigration laws that allows all that? Sorry, they don't. You even, gasp and shudder, have to show ID to vote. Who do they think they are, right?
7
George S:
The point I was making about my experience in entering Mexico is that it was not what I read it would be like-- it was far less relaxed. I thought my car would have been stopped and searched, or, at least someone would have spoken to me to sort of get a feel about my disposition.
The point I was making about my experience in entering Mexico is that it was not what I read it would be like-- it was far less relaxed. I thought my car would have been stopped and searched, or, at least someone would have spoken to me to sort of get a feel about my disposition.
Sorry to say but the systems has now been entirely rigged against Americans. If you are a white collar worker, the H1-B, L1s, B1s and a multitude of visas are used to replace your job. If you are blue collar, illegals depress your wages or your job is outsourced anyway. The wealth growth is very uneven, and a majority of the population is aware of it. Capitalistm went from shared wealth to cannibalism, dog eat dog work ethics. Cannibalistic capitalism resulted in extreme Socialism (Bernie) or extreme Protection (Trump). Why are people surprised?
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Sanders is hardly extreme. Successful European democracies are more socialist than Sanders is.
"Sorry to say but the systems has now been entirely rigged against Americans. If you are a white collar worker, the H1-B, L1s, B1s and a multitude of visas are used to replace your job."
This is a falsehood. Employers who hire aliens on H1B visas are required by immigration laws to pay them at least more that the standard wage in their field, and must demonstrate that they are not displacing American workers. If some employers commit fraud by not obeying these (very clear) rules, then that's the employers fault, and you cannot blame "the system" for it. The system is NOT rigged.
This is a falsehood. Employers who hire aliens on H1B visas are required by immigration laws to pay them at least more that the standard wage in their field, and must demonstrate that they are not displacing American workers. If some employers commit fraud by not obeying these (very clear) rules, then that's the employers fault, and you cannot blame "the system" for it. The system is NOT rigged.
White workers (blue and white collar) were so confident that their own place in the hierarchy would never change that they forgot to pay attention. The changes destabilizing their positions were gradual, but still visible. There has been no coherent movement by whites to push back against outsourcing, erosion of benefits, and the decline of unions. Instead, they allied themselves with the party that has destroyed their advantages, in the false hope that they would be put first and that the "other" would be put back "in its place". The push back needs to be on the businesses, not on the employees that replaced them.
1
The simple truth is that either the country has skilled workers, or it needs to import them.
For companies, nothing could be more important than staffing their ranks with the very best employees in the world.
And for a country like United States that has thrived in competition and assumed the status of a flag bearer for capitalist ideals to shy away from immigration is akin to a bird that no longer flies.
Here is a revealing statistic: The median household income of American families in 2014 was $53,657. For Indian American households it was $101,591.
For companies, nothing could be more important than staffing their ranks with the very best employees in the world.
And for a country like United States that has thrived in competition and assumed the status of a flag bearer for capitalist ideals to shy away from immigration is akin to a bird that no longer flies.
Here is a revealing statistic: The median household income of American families in 2014 was $53,657. For Indian American households it was $101,591.
5
Why are companies more important than citizens?
1
maybe we should train our own people then? put trades back into schools? things like that?
2
The country also needs unskilled workers who will do the agricultural work that 'Americans' will not do.
"One of its most striking moments came when Khizr Khan rebuked Mr. Trump in the name of his son who died in Iraq. "
Mr. Humayun Khan was a noble soul, and made the ultimate sacrifice that any American citizen can make to defend our country.
By speaking at the DNC convention and deriding a political candidate, his parents unarguably politicized his death.
Those speaking against guns at the DNC were right to do so, because gun control has become a political issue and if that is the way to fight it, so be it.
But that is not the case with Mr. Khan. Politics is dirty and we do not wish our soldiers to be sullied by political mudslinging that will ensue.
I cringed when Chris Kyle's sacrifice was politicized by his wife and Republicans, to score a political point against guns.
(Islamic fanatics with fake non-Muslim names, do not bother to react to this post.)
Mr. Humayun Khan was a noble soul, and made the ultimate sacrifice that any American citizen can make to defend our country.
By speaking at the DNC convention and deriding a political candidate, his parents unarguably politicized his death.
Those speaking against guns at the DNC were right to do so, because gun control has become a political issue and if that is the way to fight it, so be it.
But that is not the case with Mr. Khan. Politics is dirty and we do not wish our soldiers to be sullied by political mudslinging that will ensue.
I cringed when Chris Kyle's sacrifice was politicized by his wife and Republicans, to score a political point against guns.
(Islamic fanatics with fake non-Muslim names, do not bother to react to this post.)
10
There is more than just politics at stake here. In fact, most of the time we can't separate political events from the way our society ultimately. functions. The next presidential election's effect on our society and on individual families could be huge. It's disingenuous at best to pretend otherwise.
2
I'm not sure where the New York Times gets its polling data but I for one do not support any opportunity for the 11 million immigrants living outside the law to earn inclusion and citizenship. Plain and simple, they need to leave. We are a nation of laws and borders. In my view, anyone that does not support that viewpoint is un-American.
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The U.S Code clearly states that entering the U.S. without proper authorization is "a federal offense". Look it up......
2
"Plain and simple, they need to leave. We are a nation of laws and borders. In my view, anyone that does not support that viewpoint is un-American."
We are a nation of immigrants! IMO, "deport them all" is un-American. It is an overly simplistic, impractical solution for a complex problem.
"Send them all home" is just as ridiculous as "let them all in". Neither is workable.
The logistics and expense of deporting 11 million people boggles the mind. Sending American children (with their parents) to other countries would often mean US citizens that return as adults without a good education. Keeping those children without the parents means lots of kids growing up effectively as angry orphans.
Deporting young people who have never known a home other than the US would be cruel - especially when many would wind up on the streets in a country where they don't speak the language. Those young people are as American as the rest of our kids - just without a "proper" birth certificate.
Lots of illegal immigrants are waiting on a ruling on their asylum applications - a wait that can take years. If we can't get that paperwork done, what chance do you think we have of organizing a mass deportation?
One of the reasons behind sanctuary cities is to convince illegal immigrants to help the police when they can and to seek the help of police when necessary. Do you really want more entire communities treating the police as the enemy? I sure don't!!
We are a nation of immigrants! IMO, "deport them all" is un-American. It is an overly simplistic, impractical solution for a complex problem.
"Send them all home" is just as ridiculous as "let them all in". Neither is workable.
The logistics and expense of deporting 11 million people boggles the mind. Sending American children (with their parents) to other countries would often mean US citizens that return as adults without a good education. Keeping those children without the parents means lots of kids growing up effectively as angry orphans.
Deporting young people who have never known a home other than the US would be cruel - especially when many would wind up on the streets in a country where they don't speak the language. Those young people are as American as the rest of our kids - just without a "proper" birth certificate.
Lots of illegal immigrants are waiting on a ruling on their asylum applications - a wait that can take years. If we can't get that paperwork done, what chance do you think we have of organizing a mass deportation?
One of the reasons behind sanctuary cities is to convince illegal immigrants to help the police when they can and to seek the help of police when necessary. Do you really want more entire communities treating the police as the enemy? I sure don't!!
2
Are you a Lakota or an Apache? Comanche, perhaps?
2
Well, looks like I can have one of the first comments on this one, although I see that Richard L. has already made his contribution. Just one immediate note for Richard Luettgen, about immigrants in "unassimilable numbers who were reared in different cultures." Let me just focus on Latin America. I am Richard's age, probably just a bit older, and have spent a lifetime in the U.S. foreign service worldwide. In Latin America, I have lived in Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, El Salvador, Mexico and almost every other country in-between. Immigrants from those countries to the U.S., legal or illegal, despite the stereotypes, are assimilating into American culture and speaking the English language as fast as any other immigrant group historically. By the second and third generations, the descendants of Latin American immigrants are as American as apple pie. And the idea that this immigration is somehow encouraged by Democrats because they think they will pick up a solid voting block is totally untrue. I could say a lot more, but basically these are fantastic people (think Marco Rubio, think the Castro brothers from San Antonio, in terms of current political figures).
My other comment has to do with Mrs. Khan. I've also lived in Muslim countries. Trump has zero idea, much less respect, for Muslim women per his dismissive, awful comments that he "wishes she had said something" and maybe "she wasn't allowed to speak." Ridiculous, stupid, inane. He is beyond pathetic!
My other comment has to do with Mrs. Khan. I've also lived in Muslim countries. Trump has zero idea, much less respect, for Muslim women per his dismissive, awful comments that he "wishes she had said something" and maybe "she wasn't allowed to speak." Ridiculous, stupid, inane. He is beyond pathetic!
26
Press 2 for Spanish. Press 3 for yet another pro Immigration NY Times editorial.
8
If Mrs. Khan was allowed to speak, then why didn't she? An American woman would certainly have. Do you not believe that Sharia law and Muslim paternalism rules a large percentage of Muslim homes in the U.S.? You know why she didn't speak and as usual, Mr. Trump was not far from the truth.
4
The Timed does a disservice on this issue by conflating illegal and legal immigrants. When I read an editorial or article on this subject I'm never sure if the writers are discussing one or both groups. But the idea that 11 to 13,000,000 illegal workers in this country doesn't adversely affect the wage levels of those lowest on the labor scale is ridiculous, a commonsense proposition that the Tines never seems to acknowledge.
As for mentioning Senator McCain's previous efforts on immigration, together with Senator Ted Kennedy's, well, those efforts, though they resulted in a bill, were a complete waste of time. The proof is where we stand now on this issue. As Bill Maher said on his HBO show, hardly a conservative forum, the Democrats approach to this issue seems to be: if you make it into the US, legally or not, you're home free
As for mentioning Senator McCain's previous efforts on immigration, together with Senator Ted Kennedy's, well, those efforts, though they resulted in a bill, were a complete waste of time. The proof is where we stand now on this issue. As Bill Maher said on his HBO show, hardly a conservative forum, the Democrats approach to this issue seems to be: if you make it into the US, legally or not, you're home free
52
Thank You, DD. You write what I have felt for a long time. And Bill Maher summed it up quite accurately!
1
Immigration from Japan is not the same immigration from Yemen. Thus asking people whether they are pro or not immigration does not explain anything. Try asking people if they are for or against immigration from Yemen and then ask them the same about Japan. If the US will keep taking unskilled labor it will set itself up for a downfall as the demand for unskilled labor will decline. There are too many assumptions going into the statement that "immigration is good". Politicians have a short planning horizon and thus value immediate benefit from getting votes from the "preferred" groups based on immigration. It is not their concern what will happen later. I am for Ozzy points system - got skills then you are welcome.
45
"Immigration from Japan is not the same immigration from Yemen"
um....you there, in California. Do you remember what happened to good Japanese American citizens in the 1940s?
um....you there, in California. Do you remember what happened to good Japanese American citizens in the 1940s?
6
Lynn, you there in New York, do you recall that in the early 1940s Japan was a fascist, militarist state, which, in its unquenchable territorial ambition at that time to rule Asia, had bombed Pearl Harbour, had carried out and was carrying out unspeakable atrocities on men, women and children throughout the Far East?
4
Trump may exaggerate the problems growing out of weak immigration control.
But Clinton underplays the extent and problems of weak immigration control.
As for where Americans stand on immigration, clearly there are wide divisions.
But Americans can each make their own judgement.
They do not need polls to tell them what to think based on what others think,
or on what the polls say others think.
Come election time, each American can make his or her own judgement about which candidate best reflects where he or she comes down on immigration,
candidates not only for President, but also for Senator and Representative.
Polls might -- or might not -- depending on the poll -- be useful for a candidate to decide how to pitch his or her candidacy to the voters.
But the voters themselves can each make his or her own judgement without resort to any polls.
But Clinton underplays the extent and problems of weak immigration control.
As for where Americans stand on immigration, clearly there are wide divisions.
But Americans can each make their own judgement.
They do not need polls to tell them what to think based on what others think,
or on what the polls say others think.
Come election time, each American can make his or her own judgement about which candidate best reflects where he or she comes down on immigration,
candidates not only for President, but also for Senator and Representative.
Polls might -- or might not -- depending on the poll -- be useful for a candidate to decide how to pitch his or her candidacy to the voters.
But the voters themselves can each make his or her own judgement without resort to any polls.
8
Like a broken slot machine that pays out with perfect predictability, Trump has already disparaged Capt. Khan and his parents. Trump is a child, a tantrum filled stupid child who needs some real psychological help. Barring that he should just shut up.
15
And when asked what he would say to the grieving father, Mr. Trump replied, “I’d say, ‘We’ve had a lot of problem with radical Islamic terrorism.’”
Then he criticized that Mrs. Khan did not speak at the DNC convention. I guess Trump never learns that if you have nothing better to say, say nothing.
Then he criticized that Mrs. Khan did not speak at the DNC convention. I guess Trump never learns that if you have nothing better to say, say nothing.
9
"And 75 percent said immigrants should be allowed to stay legally, if they meet certain conditions"
The root problem being that when one writes 'immigrants should be allowed to stay legally' the ultimate number which should be 'allowed to stay illegally' is never defined.
The 1987 IRCA granted amnesty along with a promise that employment laws would be enforced -- they weren't -- and they aren't. So thirty years after the last 'comprehensive immigration reform' we now face the prospect of another 'comprehensive immigration reform'. Promises will again be made about how employment law will be enforced -- it won't be -- in the end as a practical matter it can't be. The only way you are going to practically stop illegal immigration is to implement the 'tamper proof id' first proposed with IRCA in 1987, and the 'tamper proof id' is NEVER going to happen.
Senator Charles Schumer Meet The Press 11/11/12
"Second, make sure that there is a non-forgeable document so that employers so that employers can tell who is legal and who is illegal and once they, uuuh, hire somebody illegally throw the book at 'em."
The 'tamper proof id' was (again) quietly jettisoned by the Gang of Eight
Finally, if you don't want to deport an illegal immigrant today, why would you want to deport an illegal immigrant tomorrow, just because somebody writes more laws?
The root problem being that when one writes 'immigrants should be allowed to stay legally' the ultimate number which should be 'allowed to stay illegally' is never defined.
The 1987 IRCA granted amnesty along with a promise that employment laws would be enforced -- they weren't -- and they aren't. So thirty years after the last 'comprehensive immigration reform' we now face the prospect of another 'comprehensive immigration reform'. Promises will again be made about how employment law will be enforced -- it won't be -- in the end as a practical matter it can't be. The only way you are going to practically stop illegal immigration is to implement the 'tamper proof id' first proposed with IRCA in 1987, and the 'tamper proof id' is NEVER going to happen.
Senator Charles Schumer Meet The Press 11/11/12
"Second, make sure that there is a non-forgeable document so that employers so that employers can tell who is legal and who is illegal and once they, uuuh, hire somebody illegally throw the book at 'em."
The 'tamper proof id' was (again) quietly jettisoned by the Gang of Eight
Finally, if you don't want to deport an illegal immigrant today, why would you want to deport an illegal immigrant tomorrow, just because somebody writes more laws?
30
Most immigrants make conscious, thoughtful and well considered decision to make America their home, whether escaping horrors in their native lands, for economic reasons, or to enjoy the full basket of American Dream, filled with freedom and prosperity.
Some, indeed, go to great lengths and spend years of effort to get here. They make considerable investments in becoming American. Therefore, they appreciate it more and understand its value as compared to native born who take the American blessings for granted, and many don't even understand the value of what they have or appreciate it.
As one famous writer once wrote, immigrants are like religious converts and they have to be better than the originals to continue proving to everyone - including themselves - that they are as good or better than the natives.
Of course, not all immigrants stay true to their creed. There are always some bad ones. But, then, is there any group that is perfect? Which home does not have its own trash?
The key is to focus on the glass half full and keep adding more drops in to it, than seeing only the emptiness that doesn't do anyone any good.
Some, indeed, go to great lengths and spend years of effort to get here. They make considerable investments in becoming American. Therefore, they appreciate it more and understand its value as compared to native born who take the American blessings for granted, and many don't even understand the value of what they have or appreciate it.
As one famous writer once wrote, immigrants are like religious converts and they have to be better than the originals to continue proving to everyone - including themselves - that they are as good or better than the natives.
Of course, not all immigrants stay true to their creed. There are always some bad ones. But, then, is there any group that is perfect? Which home does not have its own trash?
The key is to focus on the glass half full and keep adding more drops in to it, than seeing only the emptiness that doesn't do anyone any good.
3
Immigration largely benefits the immigrants and the wealthy. Just ask the Disney, SCE, or many other IT employees who lost their jobs to H1Bs from India. Or ask the worker getting "shaped" at union hall, while illegal alien construction workers work everyday.
24
We are a nation of immigrants. Yes, like everything else, immigration should be subject to reasonable regulation. But, it is unrealistic to talk about deporting 11 million illegal immigrants. More importantly, it is unfair to punish individuals for the systematic failure to enforce immigration laws. Reasonable procedures need to be established to enable those already here a path to citizenship. And, enforcement of our immigration laws needs to be a priority and adequately funded. Finally, just as it is otherwise illegal to discriminate based upon race, religion, ethnicity, age, disability, and other characteristics in other contexts, our immigration laws should likewise be applied in a non-discriminatory manner.
The solutions are not complex: (1) establish fair and non-discriminatory immigration regulations; (2) adequately fund and enforce those regulations; and (3) establish fair and non-discriminatory procedures to provide a relatively quick and inexpensive path to citizenship for illegal immigrants already living here.
The solutions are not complex: (1) establish fair and non-discriminatory immigration regulations; (2) adequately fund and enforce those regulations; and (3) establish fair and non-discriminatory procedures to provide a relatively quick and inexpensive path to citizenship for illegal immigrants already living here.
7
Correction, Mr. Didier, and very important: We Are A Nation of Legal Immigrants ! A very important detail. We already possess "fair and non-discriminatory immigration regulations". Just ask those who have come here by obeying the laws which we have.
4
Because of Hispanics legally and illegally present in the US. and because of high Hispanic birth rates, the United States is on the verge of becoming, for the first time ever, a majority minority nation. No Western European country comes even close. This may be a good thing. Or it may be a bad thing. But it is happening without reflection by our leaders. Republicans tend to be hostile to immigrants. Democrats tend to be bleeding hearts. But the majority minority issue is barely addressed. I like what Hispanic culture brings to the U.S. But, with a large Hispanic population, the US may become bilingual. That has caused all kinds of problems in Belgium, but not so much in Switzerland. How it will affect the U.S. is the core immigration issue we are facing. Democrats and Republicans don't seem to have a clue. Admitting a small number of Muslims and keeping out the undocumented, whose numbers have stabilized, are talking points for the candidates. They are missing the forest for the trees.
12
"..the United States is on the verge of becoming, for the first time ever, a majority minority nation."
Isn't it already? I mean, how many native Americans are there nowadays?
Isn't it already? I mean, how many native Americans are there nowadays?
3
Using "majority minority" in the place of "white minority" demonstrates the anxiety many Americans of European ancestry are feeling. The underlying fear, I think, is that brown people will treat white people the same way that whites treated others in the past. While human nature tends not to change a lot, it's not a given that "reverse racism" will be institutionalized going forward. Societies can and do evolve for the better.
1
The Socialistic Democratic Party has not done anything and they will not in the future because they pander for as many votes as possible; pure and simple. The Republicans are concerned about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who are draining our financial, socialistic and educational systems. They are not talking about a family such as the one seen and used as propaganda. The Socialistic Democrat Party, however, will just continue to obscenely tax the citizens of this country, limit their tax deductions and bleed them dry financially. The entitlement programs are drowning every citizen yet the Socialistic Democratic Party never has enough tax, tax credits, and programs. What a horrible future for everyone's children.
20
The "Socialist" Democratic party was also the last one to balance the budget... under a Clinton presidency. The last time I looked it was the Republicans who squandered your two trillion dollars in taxes on on badly executed wars...
But keep voting for them and let them keep convincing you to demonize the other party while your quality of life continues to fail.. BTW I was a card-carrying Republican for twenty years and am now an independent. Never been a democrat -- but I do vote my interests and my conscience which has been Democratic since 2000 after the Republicans took their hard right turn and ended up in Trumps dytopian nightmare vision of America...
My advice. Wake up.
But keep voting for them and let them keep convincing you to demonize the other party while your quality of life continues to fail.. BTW I was a card-carrying Republican for twenty years and am now an independent. Never been a democrat -- but I do vote my interests and my conscience which has been Democratic since 2000 after the Republicans took their hard right turn and ended up in Trumps dytopian nightmare vision of America...
My advice. Wake up.
2
Mr. Kahn, with his wife at his side, spoke about his son who died in military service to the U.S. He rebuked Donald Trump for the horrible things he has said about all Muslims. He received a lot of positive attention by the press for his statements.
Trump is unable to accept any criticism. So, he tried to take the sting out of Mr Kahn's rebuke by saying that Mrs Kahn was not allowed to speak - as a Muslim woman. Well, she did speak to reporters saying that it is hard for her to speak in public about her son's death.
Trump just proved the truth behind Hillary Clinton characterization - he can be baited with a Tweet Just the kind of temperament we need in a President!
Trump is unable to accept any criticism. So, he tried to take the sting out of Mr Kahn's rebuke by saying that Mrs Kahn was not allowed to speak - as a Muslim woman. Well, she did speak to reporters saying that it is hard for her to speak in public about her son's death.
Trump just proved the truth behind Hillary Clinton characterization - he can be baited with a Tweet Just the kind of temperament we need in a President!
16
While this is a thoughtful article, it continues to try to obscure the stark and obvious difference between illegal immigration and legal immigration. There is a difference, and there has never not been a difference. The only thing that has changed are the rhetorical goals of articles such as this and I'm quite sure this rhetorical obfuscation is quite obvious to most people.
Until articles like this stop reproducing this particular forced change in narrative, it does nothing to promote discussion or resolution.
Many people such as myself welcome newcomers to join us, to participate in the forward movement of this great country, to add their names to it's story, and to enjoy the blessings of liberty.
But do it legally. This is the international status quo, and there is very good reasons for it. Citizenship is not a right, and it is not bestowed merely by being someplace. There is no problem with our existing immigration system or our immigration laws, the problem is that millions of people, including our President, choose to intentionally and conspicuously disregard them.
Until articles like this stop reproducing this particular forced change in narrative, it does nothing to promote discussion or resolution.
Many people such as myself welcome newcomers to join us, to participate in the forward movement of this great country, to add their names to it's story, and to enjoy the blessings of liberty.
But do it legally. This is the international status quo, and there is very good reasons for it. Citizenship is not a right, and it is not bestowed merely by being someplace. There is no problem with our existing immigration system or our immigration laws, the problem is that millions of people, including our President, choose to intentionally and conspicuously disregard them.
38
"There is no problem with our existing immigration system or our immigration laws"
Really? Then why does it take so long to process asylum applications. Why are children being confined in detention centers during that processing? Why are we allowing employers to bring in skilled, but cheaper, foreign workers to take the jobs of skilled Americans.
There are lots of problems with our existing immigration system!!
Really? Then why does it take so long to process asylum applications. Why are children being confined in detention centers during that processing? Why are we allowing employers to bring in skilled, but cheaper, foreign workers to take the jobs of skilled Americans.
There are lots of problems with our existing immigration system!!
2
Illegal immigrants, who break our laws by crossing the border, should never be rewarded with citizenship. Americans who support this idea have no sense of integrity. And it's not just illegal immigrants that should be discouraged, but universities and corporations that request work visas that displace the bright and talented Americans should also be fined severely. Those who think this is not compassionate obviously have not lost their jobs to individuals with lesser credentials. And just because someone has a brochure with the constitution does not mean they have read it.
44
Khizr Khan has a law degree from Harvard. He has read the US Constitution.
2
We will never persuade the fringe nativists, that the Grand Old Pirates pander too, by facts and reason. They are much more comfortable in their bubble of non-reality, more based on bigotry and fear, than they ever will be by a fact based universe. And you can count of the 'righties' to continue to exploit them for votes.
Mr. Khan's speech at the DNC is one of those moments that will be remembered long after the fact. But already the Republican smear machine is in motion to cover this all up and minimize the heroic sacrifice made by their son Capt Humayun Khan. Your piece is today's edition by Maggie Haberman shows that clearly. See Lawrence O'Donnell's interview with both Mr. & Mrs. Khan. She had plenty to say.
We will never rid ourselves of the disgusting filth of lies, smear, and greed that is today's Trump/Republican party until we boot them from office at any and all levels of our government and public discourse.
Mr. Khan's speech at the DNC is one of those moments that will be remembered long after the fact. But already the Republican smear machine is in motion to cover this all up and minimize the heroic sacrifice made by their son Capt Humayun Khan. Your piece is today's edition by Maggie Haberman shows that clearly. See Lawrence O'Donnell's interview with both Mr. & Mrs. Khan. She had plenty to say.
We will never rid ourselves of the disgusting filth of lies, smear, and greed that is today's Trump/Republican party until we boot them from office at any and all levels of our government and public discourse.
12
Disappointed the NY Times is repeating the lie about Obama's record deportation rate. For anyone who doesn't know Obama changed the definition of a deportation to include people turned around at the border so his deportation statistics are greatly inflated compared to those from previous administrations.
35
Could you possibly back this up with a citation, or are you merely parroting conservative talking points?
1
I had an interesting 'immigrant experience' while waiting outside the courtroom in Memphis where I was about to become an American citizen. There we were, an assortment of men and women and children of various ages and ethnicities, but I was a bit uncomfortable because everyone seemed to be keeping their distance from me.
I wondered if it was because I was the only white person in that hallway.
It turned out that I was rumored to be the judge!
I wondered if it was because I was the only white person in that hallway.
It turned out that I was rumored to be the judge!
9
What part of illegal don't you understand?! Deport all illegal aliens and jail all those who hire and assist them. No more anchor babies either. Guilty of murder, drugs, DUI DWI, guns, using benefits meant only for legal immigrants and citizens, stealing IDs or faking IDs, etc.
30
So you are suggesting that Trump be incarcerated??? Best comment I have seen in these long 15 months of The Donald!!
1
Once again, conflating legal and illegal immigrants. Few have a problem with legal immigration, illegal immigration has to be stepped on with both feet.
Dishonest, but to be expected when you are on the wrong side of an issue.
Dishonest, but to be expected when you are on the wrong side of an issue.
38
What is never said is how retired people who are on Social Security have gotten hardly any increases in the last 5 years and any immigrant can receive over thirty thousand dollars in benefits. Prices have risen for food, rents, health care, and almost everything else. Most of the elderly in America know this and are unable to do anything about this.
29
Another NYT article reports that, in addition to taking the opportunity to disparage Mrs. Khan and all Muslims, Trump addressed Mr. Khan’s pronouncements on his lack of sacrifice by noting he “worked very, very hard” and “created thousands and thousands of jobs.”
Trump should reflect on the meaning of the word “sacrifice,” if such introspection is even possible considering his psychological makeup. Building one’s business and gathering more wealth is a privilege which was extended to him and his family by the actual sacrifices of the Khans and other American families.
Trump should reflect on the meaning of the word “sacrifice,” if such introspection is even possible considering his psychological makeup. Building one’s business and gathering more wealth is a privilege which was extended to him and his family by the actual sacrifices of the Khans and other American families.
15
Enforce the laws on the books!
Reform employers first. No more illegals stealing jobs from Americans by working for cash at lower wages.
Use a point system like Australia. Priority to people who can read and write English(can get a job); have needed skills; a college education; are unlikely to depend on welfare; have no criminal record, etc. Ability to hop a fence is not on the point list.
Immigrants need to be assets, not burdens.
Reform employers first. No more illegals stealing jobs from Americans by working for cash at lower wages.
Use a point system like Australia. Priority to people who can read and write English(can get a job); have needed skills; a college education; are unlikely to depend on welfare; have no criminal record, etc. Ability to hop a fence is not on the point list.
Immigrants need to be assets, not burdens.
57
This is how it was when my grandparents came here through Ellis Island at the end of the 19th century. They were required to have a job here, be in good health, and prove sponsorship. My great uncle was disallowed because of a rampant cough; my great aunt went back to Lithuania with her rejected 12 year old who had an eye infection. She went back to serfdom by the way.
Do we even check the health of people coming here anymore? What happens when Zika gets to central America and Mexico? Will Democrat politicians still be in favor of the open door policy? What will Merkel and Germany do if Zika gets to Africa and the middle east and all those migrants rushing to Europe?
Full disclosure:
Lifelong democrat writing here
Do we even check the health of people coming here anymore? What happens when Zika gets to central America and Mexico? Will Democrat politicians still be in favor of the open door policy? What will Merkel and Germany do if Zika gets to Africa and the middle east and all those migrants rushing to Europe?
Full disclosure:
Lifelong democrat writing here
4
Due to the West Asian political turmoil compounded by the ISIS/al Qaida terror threat that has resulted into mass exodus of migrants and refugees, and its immediate fall out on Europe and rest of the West, the issues of terrorism and immigration have acquired the explosive proportions there providing a new lease of life to the hitherto dormant nativistic and xenophobic voices, symbolised by the rise of Trump, Le Pen or the similar far right retrogessive forces in the transatlantic world. Thus whatever Trump might say guided by his raw thinking on immigration or the ethnic minorities the best course would be to wait for the return of normal times after the election heat, and then to attempt for evolving a more pragmatic policy response that allows a well regulated immigration within the law. For, neither there's any escape from the greater integration and interdependence of the world in coming times, nor the aging Western societies facing economic slowdown could do without the new helping hands, affordable imported consumer items, and the rich diversified skills afforded by the free global movement of goods, services, and people.
1
"Aging Western societies facing economic slowdown could (not) do without the new helping hands."
An arguement put forward by Angela Merkel to justify allowing up to one million refugees from the Middle East to settle in Germany. As such, the new helping hands are legal immigrants.
The issue in the US is that of illegal immigrants and the view held by many that such persons drive down the wages that can be earned by legal residents.
An arguement put forward by Angela Merkel to justify allowing up to one million refugees from the Middle East to settle in Germany. As such, the new helping hands are legal immigrants.
The issue in the US is that of illegal immigrants and the view held by many that such persons drive down the wages that can be earned by legal residents.
6
Concede your point. Thanks.
1
This is preaching to the choir, the people listening to Trump do not read your editorials, they get theirs from Fox, or the Oklahoman, the Kansas City Star, the Texas Observer, and other right wing dailies.
They do not believe these facts, they believe what sound plausible to them. The see foreigners opening small businesses, catering to other foreigners, and just know they are being overrun by them, that is how they see it.
In the Sacramento Bee, a columnist wrote how he gave a talk to a group of retired white working men, and gave them the fact, they did not believe him, they see these Mexicans in the Home Depot parking lot, soliciting work and believe the country is overrun with them.
I do not know it such can be countered, you can not just tell these people they are wrong, it has to make some kind of effect on them. these kinds of personalities still will not believe they are mistaken, they will postulate some other cause, they will attribute their personal failures to the actions of others.
The best action is to just convince more rational people as to why they need to support Hillary. We need more people who really understand the consequences and will outvote those who vote their emotions. That includes you, you Bernie or bust crowd.
They do not believe these facts, they believe what sound plausible to them. The see foreigners opening small businesses, catering to other foreigners, and just know they are being overrun by them, that is how they see it.
In the Sacramento Bee, a columnist wrote how he gave a talk to a group of retired white working men, and gave them the fact, they did not believe him, they see these Mexicans in the Home Depot parking lot, soliciting work and believe the country is overrun with them.
I do not know it such can be countered, you can not just tell these people they are wrong, it has to make some kind of effect on them. these kinds of personalities still will not believe they are mistaken, they will postulate some other cause, they will attribute their personal failures to the actions of others.
The best action is to just convince more rational people as to why they need to support Hillary. We need more people who really understand the consequences and will outvote those who vote their emotions. That includes you, you Bernie or bust crowd.
27
"You can not just tell these people they are wrong".
How wrong can they be, if the Department of Homeland Security estimates that there are 11 million illegal immigrants in the US?
How wrong can they be, if the Department of Homeland Security estimates that there are 11 million illegal immigrants in the US?
4
Because the people David is talking about actually claim there are 20-30 million illegal immigrants in the US.
2
When I see Hillary Clinton promising to increase immigration and the very people who support her are black and brown people, many quite poor, I find it astonishing.
Hillary promised everything to everyone; she promises to increase immigration at a time when black and brown and poor white people in this country are struggling and just hope for a better life for their children.
We need jobs, healthcare, schools, infrastructure not more HB1 visas and illegal immigration.
I say let some people who are here illegally stay but they should not be rewarded with citizenship.
Many black people have been here for over 400 years and we keep getting pushed aside for ever increasing immigration.
Additionally, Congress needs to issue a Visa type card to everyone who enters the country for the purpose of tracking anyone who defaults on their commitment to leave the country when their visa is expired, and also clamp down on employers who employ anyone in the country illegally.
When I was a young mom, any couple that had more than the "supposed 2.3" kids was admonished for adversely contributing to population growth.
We can not continue to support ever increasing population explosion from other countries.
Hillary promised everything to everyone; she promises to increase immigration at a time when black and brown and poor white people in this country are struggling and just hope for a better life for their children.
We need jobs, healthcare, schools, infrastructure not more HB1 visas and illegal immigration.
I say let some people who are here illegally stay but they should not be rewarded with citizenship.
Many black people have been here for over 400 years and we keep getting pushed aside for ever increasing immigration.
Additionally, Congress needs to issue a Visa type card to everyone who enters the country for the purpose of tracking anyone who defaults on their commitment to leave the country when their visa is expired, and also clamp down on employers who employ anyone in the country illegally.
When I was a young mom, any couple that had more than the "supposed 2.3" kids was admonished for adversely contributing to population growth.
We can not continue to support ever increasing population explosion from other countries.
1
Here's one simple truth on immigration.
The H-1B program is being widely used to economically disenfranchise skilled, experienced, and hard-working naturalized Americans, illegally in many instances - and yet the most recent Senate immigration bill proposed to dramatically expand the scope of this program instead of reforming and dramatically curtailing it.
There are many complicated reasons why the flow of immigration from Latin America is as heavy as it is - such as blowback from our failed war on drugs (which has residents of the region running here for their lives), repeated military inventions in the region on the behalf of regimes that depend on death squads, and the impact of trade deals that tend to disadvantage subsistence farmers, and thus leave them little choice but emigration.
As a nation of immigrants, one would hope that Americans would be more understanding of the plight of these emigres, and our role in the causes that impel them here.
But their patience may be simply exhausted as a result of watching too many of their highly skilled and fully-qualified countrymen be given the boot all so a corporate CEO and his or her flunkies can get a bigger bonus, while circumventing the actual intent of Congress.
What Drumpf is proposing is a crude tool, as befits a crude man. But perhaps he would be making less headway on this issue if our coalition of the bribed in Washington was doing a better job representing the economic interests of actual Americans.
The H-1B program is being widely used to economically disenfranchise skilled, experienced, and hard-working naturalized Americans, illegally in many instances - and yet the most recent Senate immigration bill proposed to dramatically expand the scope of this program instead of reforming and dramatically curtailing it.
There are many complicated reasons why the flow of immigration from Latin America is as heavy as it is - such as blowback from our failed war on drugs (which has residents of the region running here for their lives), repeated military inventions in the region on the behalf of regimes that depend on death squads, and the impact of trade deals that tend to disadvantage subsistence farmers, and thus leave them little choice but emigration.
As a nation of immigrants, one would hope that Americans would be more understanding of the plight of these emigres, and our role in the causes that impel them here.
But their patience may be simply exhausted as a result of watching too many of their highly skilled and fully-qualified countrymen be given the boot all so a corporate CEO and his or her flunkies can get a bigger bonus, while circumventing the actual intent of Congress.
What Drumpf is proposing is a crude tool, as befits a crude man. But perhaps he would be making less headway on this issue if our coalition of the bribed in Washington was doing a better job representing the economic interests of actual Americans.
435
The flow of Mexican immigrants to the US (which comprises the largest group migrating to the US from Latinamerica) has become negative since the Great Recession. Thus, more Mexicans leave the US than enter it. Please read this report from the Pew Research:
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-...
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-...
11
Obviously, in paragraph 2, I meant to type "repeated military interventions in the region".
3
h1b is just another sellout of th american worker
there are so many its hard to keep track of them all
3
I am a Democrat. The only plank in the Dem platform that confounds me is the one relating t immigration.
I fail to understand how a $15 minimum wage (that I support) can be squared with "comprehensive immigration reform" - basically, accepting all comers and thereby expanding the labor pool, burdening our education and healthcare systems and instituting a race to the bottom.
The policy is already attracting not necessarily the most qualified or the most useful to our economy, but those who have the bravado to break the law and expect to get away with it.
I fail to understand how a $15 minimum wage (that I support) can be squared with "comprehensive immigration reform" - basically, accepting all comers and thereby expanding the labor pool, burdening our education and healthcare systems and instituting a race to the bottom.
The policy is already attracting not necessarily the most qualified or the most useful to our economy, but those who have the bravado to break the law and expect to get away with it.
196
Look at the jobs most immigrants take. It is either technical ones like the computer industry, or low skill like seasonal farm work.
Harvesting workers can make an average of $20 or so an hour or so but they have to work like mules to do so. Even so there are very few Americans that will do this work, or other jobs like on egg farms, pig farms, dirty smelly work.
We see those who have no idea what they are talking about saying, well if the farmers only paid more. Crop work is seasonal, and you follow the crops, leaving your family or taking them along moving from state to state.
Those who do this kind of work used to return home in the off seasons, but now they cant get back, so they stay. You can not pay hourly for harvesting work, you could not afford an apple, or even a strawberry if you did. It is piece work, and it takes people who have the experience and stamina to do it. Occasionally some idiot says "we used to help harvest out neighbors crop." There are 13million acres of crop land just from Bakersfield to Sacramento alone. That is only one state. it is a 7/7 job during season.
That labor pool is not craftsmen, mechanics machinist, it is gardeners, maids, nannies, how many of them do you know?
Harvesting workers can make an average of $20 or so an hour or so but they have to work like mules to do so. Even so there are very few Americans that will do this work, or other jobs like on egg farms, pig farms, dirty smelly work.
We see those who have no idea what they are talking about saying, well if the farmers only paid more. Crop work is seasonal, and you follow the crops, leaving your family or taking them along moving from state to state.
Those who do this kind of work used to return home in the off seasons, but now they cant get back, so they stay. You can not pay hourly for harvesting work, you could not afford an apple, or even a strawberry if you did. It is piece work, and it takes people who have the experience and stamina to do it. Occasionally some idiot says "we used to help harvest out neighbors crop." There are 13million acres of crop land just from Bakersfield to Sacramento alone. That is only one state. it is a 7/7 job during season.
That labor pool is not craftsmen, mechanics machinist, it is gardeners, maids, nannies, how many of them do you know?
13
I agree, but there seems to be some mental block on the side of Democrats when it comes to Economy 101.
2
ever ponder how much grit and self reliance it takes to crawl hundreds of miles to a hostile environment where you don't speak the language? for the most part, hispanics are incredibly hard-working, deeply religious and socially conservative, the demonization of this group is RACIST, pure and simple.
they are not here as interlopers - just looking to thrive. they deserve a fair shake. immigration policy shouldn't be used as a cudgel.
they are not here as interlopers - just looking to thrive. they deserve a fair shake. immigration policy shouldn't be used as a cudgel.
3
The GOP and Donald Trump seem to be aware of only a single fact about immigration: A solid majority of immigrants to America, legal or illegal, do not support the vision of our country espoused by many conservatives.
It took them a long time to realize that changing demographics clearly predicted the slow decline of their political fortunes, and now that it is late in the game they are praying that their desperate attempts to foster fear among voters will stem the tide.
It may work in the short term. A lot of Americans truly are fearful of the changes they see. But that policy is doomed to failure unless they can radically re-shape America into a nation that denies the founding beliefs that gave it birth.
It took them a long time to realize that changing demographics clearly predicted the slow decline of their political fortunes, and now that it is late in the game they are praying that their desperate attempts to foster fear among voters will stem the tide.
It may work in the short term. A lot of Americans truly are fearful of the changes they see. But that policy is doomed to failure unless they can radically re-shape America into a nation that denies the founding beliefs that gave it birth.
16
The transformation in the GOP has been that the base was previously silenced by the water carriers for then pro-cheap-labor-pro-quasi-open-borders crowd in the American Chamber of Commerce and the CEO Guild in the Business Roundtable and their Fourth Estate ideologues like the Wall Street Journal who view human labor as just another economic input like machinery or commodities and now the base has finally ditched that crowd and is speaking up.
Meanwhile, in the Democratic party, the non-Latino base used to be well-represented by union leaders who wanted strong immigration control but have been abandoned by those union leaders who join with the party leaders in pandering to Latinos and pro-open-borders-one-worlders and tell the non-Latino base to hush up.
Meanwhile, in the Democratic party, the non-Latino base used to be well-represented by union leaders who wanted strong immigration control but have been abandoned by those union leaders who join with the party leaders in pandering to Latinos and pro-open-borders-one-worlders and tell the non-Latino base to hush up.
3
The Khans have much to teach Trump about immigrants, about the United States, about sacrifice, and about our Constitution.
Trump misses that America is a nation of immigrants.
Trump misses that immigrants and refugees have the same inherent worth as a native-born, far from being "criminals," or "a Trojan Horse."
Trump misses that immigrants are among our soldiers who risk their lives for the rest of us, unlike Donald "dodging STDs was my Vietnam" Trump.
Trump misses that our Constitution prohibits the kind of religious tests he espouses.
The Khans are much better emblems of the United States than The Donald.
Trump misses that America is a nation of immigrants.
Trump misses that immigrants and refugees have the same inherent worth as a native-born, far from being "criminals," or "a Trojan Horse."
Trump misses that immigrants are among our soldiers who risk their lives for the rest of us, unlike Donald "dodging STDs was my Vietnam" Trump.
Trump misses that our Constitution prohibits the kind of religious tests he espouses.
The Khans are much better emblems of the United States than The Donald.
349
And yet, Democrats support Hillary, who has never done anything other than benefit herself. That Mr. Khan supports her candidacy is a clear demonstration that he has not embraced American values, but rather has retained his sense that the politically powerful are above the law.
3
You are the one who misses the point of why many support Trump even though his approach is horrible. The point is many Americans citizens whose parents built this country and fought was for this country are unemployed and underemployed. Immigration, legal, and particularly illegal, has to be controlled. We are living in a different world with easy access to transportation that increases a kind of immigration that is not sustainable, unlike the past.
6
If we only accepted the wisdom of the Khans, or the wisdom of Trump --one to the exclusion of the other--it would be a tragic mistake. The lesson for Mr. Trump from Mr. Khan and his sons sacrifice for this country is that it is always a mistake to pre-judge individuals based on ones perception of the group to which they appear to belong, and therefore it is a mistake to talk about Muslims or Mexicans or, say, men or women, as if they were all the same.
The lesson for Mr. Khan from Mr. Trump for this country is the same one: although jihadis may also be Muslims, it is a mistake to pre-judge individual
jihadis based on ones perception of the individual Muslims one knows.
There are Muslims who are patriots, and there are those who are enemies of the state. When our government has voiced highly serious concern that ISIS warriors will be entering the country along with non-radicalized Muslim Syrian refugees, it has also suggested that we temporarily suspend the admission of Syrian refugees until we can distinguish the one from the other. Failure to recognize this wisdom for what its true purpose is-- national security--and to distinguish this from what some would claim is its primary motivation--bigotry--will forever impede our intelligence agencies from doing a capable job of protecting all of us, including the countrys Khans.
Apologies for lack of apostrophes, and parenthesis, which this venue is preventing me from using.
The lesson for Mr. Khan from Mr. Trump for this country is the same one: although jihadis may also be Muslims, it is a mistake to pre-judge individual
jihadis based on ones perception of the individual Muslims one knows.
There are Muslims who are patriots, and there are those who are enemies of the state. When our government has voiced highly serious concern that ISIS warriors will be entering the country along with non-radicalized Muslim Syrian refugees, it has also suggested that we temporarily suspend the admission of Syrian refugees until we can distinguish the one from the other. Failure to recognize this wisdom for what its true purpose is-- national security--and to distinguish this from what some would claim is its primary motivation--bigotry--will forever impede our intelligence agencies from doing a capable job of protecting all of us, including the countrys Khans.
Apologies for lack of apostrophes, and parenthesis, which this venue is preventing me from using.
A few simple truths on immigration, veers a bit from the truth itsself. Trump did not in any way say that al immigrants were rapists and killers. Furthermore Trump makes a clear distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. Stating the rate of crime across America is in no way evidence that illegal immigrants commit few crimes, as facts prove otherwise, if you use actual data from police and court records it shows a high rate of crimes committed by illegal, uneducated, low skilled immigrants.. You seem to lump legal immigrants into the same conversation, which Trump did not do.
120
not true about illegal immigrants and high rate of crimes. Source, please, other than 'police and court records"??? Truth is, most undocumented people take great care to remain "in the shadows", which includes avoiding all contact with police...
7
Yes, Mr Trump is not against all immigration. He even showcased one from Italy.
He is just against brown ones. In their myopic prejudices, Republicans actually lost repeated opportunities to expand their base: Recent immigrants tend to be more socially conservative and fiscally responsible. The only thing that mattered to the party, namely the right color, they did not have it.
Same reason why Mr Trump "palls" around with Mr Putin
He is just against brown ones. In their myopic prejudices, Republicans actually lost repeated opportunities to expand their base: Recent immigrants tend to be more socially conservative and fiscally responsible. The only thing that mattered to the party, namely the right color, they did not have it.
Same reason why Mr Trump "palls" around with Mr Putin
4
Garry, if you are wanting to base your statistics on "uneducated, low-skilled" would you be so kind as to compare the rates for immigrants vs. US born?
You see, you lumped too many variables together. So we don't know if "uneducated, low-skilled" fits the pattern without tossing in whether people are citizens, legal or illegal immigrants improves the statistical fit.
Personally, my gut feeling is that people who came here knowing they're subject to deportation would be a bit more careful than locals living at the same low-end of the scale. You know, the "we worked our butts off so you kids could have a better life" kind of model for people who move here on purpose.
But if you have the actual data, please be so kind as to check that and report back. You might be right, but your statement doesn't give us any reason to accept it as fact.
You see, you lumped too many variables together. So we don't know if "uneducated, low-skilled" fits the pattern without tossing in whether people are citizens, legal or illegal immigrants improves the statistical fit.
Personally, my gut feeling is that people who came here knowing they're subject to deportation would be a bit more careful than locals living at the same low-end of the scale. You know, the "we worked our butts off so you kids could have a better life" kind of model for people who move here on purpose.
But if you have the actual data, please be so kind as to check that and report back. You might be right, but your statement doesn't give us any reason to accept it as fact.
One hopes that questioners at the presidential debates will be more persistent, so that Mr. Trump actually answers questions with substance and not simple slogans. This man is the Republican nominee and we still don’t know any details about his stance on immigration. For example:
• How is he going to build a “2000-mile wall” and how long is it going to take?
• How is he going to get Mexico to pay for it?
• How is he going to stop illegal border crossings while the wall is being built?
• How is he going to deport “11 million immigrants living outside the law” and how long is that going to take? How much is it going to cost?
• How exactly is he going to temporarily stop Muslim immigration from countries compromised by terrorism – which now includes western allies, such as France and Germany!
And, these are questions related to just one topic – immigration – among several others that Trump has yet to answer? He must be the only presidential candidate in history to have sloganeered his way to the nomination!
The media overall has done a terrible job in holding Trump accountable for his numerous lies (falsehoods is a wimp term, when it comes to the whoppers that Trump has peddled). If this man is to become the next president of the United States, before he puts his hand on the Bible and swears to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, he might do well to accept Mr. Khan’s challenge and read it. Then start answering the questions!
• How is he going to build a “2000-mile wall” and how long is it going to take?
• How is he going to get Mexico to pay for it?
• How is he going to stop illegal border crossings while the wall is being built?
• How is he going to deport “11 million immigrants living outside the law” and how long is that going to take? How much is it going to cost?
• How exactly is he going to temporarily stop Muslim immigration from countries compromised by terrorism – which now includes western allies, such as France and Germany!
And, these are questions related to just one topic – immigration – among several others that Trump has yet to answer? He must be the only presidential candidate in history to have sloganeered his way to the nomination!
The media overall has done a terrible job in holding Trump accountable for his numerous lies (falsehoods is a wimp term, when it comes to the whoppers that Trump has peddled). If this man is to become the next president of the United States, before he puts his hand on the Bible and swears to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, he might do well to accept Mr. Khan’s challenge and read it. Then start answering the questions!
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Jack, here are some answers to your questions.
• How is he going to build a “2000-mile wall” and how long is it going to take?
A: The wall that Trump wants to build is shorter than the Great Wall of China. If China could do it, thousands of years ago, why not?
• How is he going to get Mexico to pay for it?
A: He cannot, that is just poppycock.
• How is he going to stop illegal border crossings while the wall is being built?
A: To a man putting on his pants, can I say, "But you will still be undressed WHILE you are putting on your pants." His answer would surely be, "Yes, but if I did not put on my pants, I would remain undressed forever."
• How is he going to deport “11 million immigrants living outside the law” and how long is that going to take? How much is it going to cost?
A: He can impose severe punishments on employers who hire without legal authorization.
• How exactly is he going to temporarily stop Muslim immigration from countries compromised by terrorism – which now includes western allies, such as France and Germany!
That is easier since Muslim immigration would be largely by plane and airports are easier to control than the 2000 mile border which you yourself referred to.
From your name I suspect that your parents came here legally and had to work hard to get green cards and citizenship. Why are you so much in favor of people who want to steal what your parents had to work hard to get?
• How is he going to build a “2000-mile wall” and how long is it going to take?
A: The wall that Trump wants to build is shorter than the Great Wall of China. If China could do it, thousands of years ago, why not?
• How is he going to get Mexico to pay for it?
A: He cannot, that is just poppycock.
• How is he going to stop illegal border crossings while the wall is being built?
A: To a man putting on his pants, can I say, "But you will still be undressed WHILE you are putting on your pants." His answer would surely be, "Yes, but if I did not put on my pants, I would remain undressed forever."
• How is he going to deport “11 million immigrants living outside the law” and how long is that going to take? How much is it going to cost?
A: He can impose severe punishments on employers who hire without legal authorization.
• How exactly is he going to temporarily stop Muslim immigration from countries compromised by terrorism – which now includes western allies, such as France and Germany!
That is easier since Muslim immigration would be largely by plane and airports are easier to control than the 2000 mile border which you yourself referred to.
From your name I suspect that your parents came here legally and had to work hard to get green cards and citizenship. Why are you so much in favor of people who want to steal what your parents had to work hard to get?
4
Enforcing existing law that penalizes those that employ illegal aliens will result in the 11 million returning home, at no cost to the taxpayer.
Obama's policies have encouraged an influx: granting legal status to those who have been living illegally in the country is an invitation for others to break the law. IT is the constitutional obligation of the President to enforce the law, whether or not it appeals to him. Obama has done great harm to the country by undermining the rule of law. If there is anyone who needs Mr. Khan's copy of the Constitution it is Hillary, who has stated she will continue the lawless behavior of Obama.
Obama's policies have encouraged an influx: granting legal status to those who have been living illegally in the country is an invitation for others to break the law. IT is the constitutional obligation of the President to enforce the law, whether or not it appeals to him. Obama has done great harm to the country by undermining the rule of law. If there is anyone who needs Mr. Khan's copy of the Constitution it is Hillary, who has stated she will continue the lawless behavior of Obama.
3
Enforcing the laws that penalize employers who hire the illegals - yeah, like that is going to happen when Trump himself is one of those employers, or big agra businesses, or the big restaurant chains, because that is how the 1% have been able to make their massive incomes, by keeping the wages low to benefit themselves. While you are at, why not raise taxes on the 1% too!!
2
"Another was the notion that most Americans are desperate for the kind of tough-guy response — including massive deportation and building a wall — that Mr. Trump offers as his solution."
Most Americans do want controlled immigration for the benefit of American citizens not to keep wages down to benefit the wealthy, which is what excessive immigration does. Also most people realize campaign promises are often over hyped and if someone says "I'll look into it" or I'll tell them to "cut it out" it means they won't do anything and that extreme promises will likewise be watered down through compromise with congress to something that is hopefully reasonable and effective.
The one thing that's clear is that Americans do want something done about excessive immigration both legal (h1b, etc) and illegal.
Most Americans do want controlled immigration for the benefit of American citizens not to keep wages down to benefit the wealthy, which is what excessive immigration does. Also most people realize campaign promises are often over hyped and if someone says "I'll look into it" or I'll tell them to "cut it out" it means they won't do anything and that extreme promises will likewise be watered down through compromise with congress to something that is hopefully reasonable and effective.
The one thing that's clear is that Americans do want something done about excessive immigration both legal (h1b, etc) and illegal.
98
In a global economy [and we are in a global economy, have no doubt] wages will fluctuate with the price of goods. "Gastarbeiter" from Muslim countries, principally Turkey, helped Germany to climb to the top of the technological heap, outshining France, the UK, China and Japan,
If the USA is to regain its position as the world's technological leader, it must do so through science, and it must admit that there are people out there, in the other world Americans quaintly call "aliens" who know more about what we need than we do.
If the USA is to regain its position as the world's technological leader, it must do so through science, and it must admit that there are people out there, in the other world Americans quaintly call "aliens" who know more about what we need than we do.
1
Reject the false choice presented in this editorial. Liberals wanting to make immigration a referendum on whether or not you're a xenophobe is as silly as when conservatives seek to make raising or lowering taxes a measure of whether you're for freedom or tyranny.
Immigration policy that focuses on the right skill sets in proper proportions helps make our economy more dynamic and our country more diverse. But too much stifles wages, tears at social cohesion, and puts enormous economic stress on small communities and lower classes. Calling for a reduction in immigration levels is not the same thing as being against immigration, and is certainly not the same thing as calling for a suspension of all immigration.
You can't claim to be fighting for working people at the same time you're flooding communities with low skill labor from outside the country's borders. The economic mobility of those people who work with their hands for a living or lack college education will be stymied by this onslaught. It never ceases to amaze me how people can wrap their heads around "outsourcing" jobs to another country where labor is cheaper, but can't understand how rampant immigration, legal or otherwise, accomplishes the same feat.
I'm against drowning, too, but that doesn't make me anti-water. Everything in its right proportions. Again, reject the false choice.
Immigration policy that focuses on the right skill sets in proper proportions helps make our economy more dynamic and our country more diverse. But too much stifles wages, tears at social cohesion, and puts enormous economic stress on small communities and lower classes. Calling for a reduction in immigration levels is not the same thing as being against immigration, and is certainly not the same thing as calling for a suspension of all immigration.
You can't claim to be fighting for working people at the same time you're flooding communities with low skill labor from outside the country's borders. The economic mobility of those people who work with their hands for a living or lack college education will be stymied by this onslaught. It never ceases to amaze me how people can wrap their heads around "outsourcing" jobs to another country where labor is cheaper, but can't understand how rampant immigration, legal or otherwise, accomplishes the same feat.
I'm against drowning, too, but that doesn't make me anti-water. Everything in its right proportions. Again, reject the false choice.
423
bravo. nailed it.
2
Your argument lacks merit because inflows of immigrants are at low levels compared to 15-30 years ago. Moat of the illegals here have been here for over a decade. The border, which we have spent a ton on the last 8 years, is safer than it ever has been. There is a negative flow of immigrants on the southern border now. Our problem is not with newly-arriving immigrants but with the undocumented who have been here for years become part of communities and raised their kids here.
3
And it is not just those unskilled that are unemployed, it is the college educated as well. Many foreigners apply to colleges with easy to get student visas and then take away as well the few faculty positions left with work visas universities can get easily. Then the part-time positions without benefits are given to the American citizens.
2
To put it simply, race baiting is as ugly as those who claimed to be Christian but chose to burn a cross as a symbol of hatred. And wait until you see the newcomers mistreating native Americans, even to this day in some of the Republican stronghold states, you see how bankrupt Trump's rhetoric is.
It is sad Sen McCain has continued his erratic behavior. For many times, he could have redeemed himself but he chose not to.
And forget about Sen Rubio whose family has benefit from this nation immigration generosity. People who can't put themselves in their own shoe!
Mayor Giuliani is now a silly old man, too bad he couldn't shut up long enough to hear his own silly echo.
Immigration is one of the reasons why this country is so vibrant. German Chancellor Merkel understands that. And America should too, considering she is more heterogenous than Germany
It is sad Sen McCain has continued his erratic behavior. For many times, he could have redeemed himself but he chose not to.
And forget about Sen Rubio whose family has benefit from this nation immigration generosity. People who can't put themselves in their own shoe!
Mayor Giuliani is now a silly old man, too bad he couldn't shut up long enough to hear his own silly echo.
Immigration is one of the reasons why this country is so vibrant. German Chancellor Merkel understands that. And America should too, considering she is more heterogenous than Germany
52
Angela Merkel has almost singlehandedly destroyed European civilization and you applaud her?
34
@Phil, don't buy the rhetoric, Chancellor Merkel may be no angel (no pun intended!) but she is really a centrist. If you blame her for Greece, it is the intransigence of both people.
True that Germany got great benefit of the Euro monetary union, and the German was tight fisted; but the Greeks have been too liberal with other people's money. Two wrongs don't one right and Ms Merkel had to navigate the two, extreme austerity and extreme irresponsibility. Ultimately, she is Germany's Chancellor and has to respond to her people
Thinking she is the heavy is that blaming President Obama for the financial crisis
True that Germany got great benefit of the Euro monetary union, and the German was tight fisted; but the Greeks have been too liberal with other people's money. Two wrongs don't one right and Ms Merkel had to navigate the two, extreme austerity and extreme irresponsibility. Ultimately, she is Germany's Chancellor and has to respond to her people
Thinking she is the heavy is that blaming President Obama for the financial crisis
1
Such ridiculous hyperbole guarantees that nothing you say should be taken seriously, as it's obvious that you lack the ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy.
1
What does "strong border security" even mean if everyone living here illegally is put on the path to citizenship?
166
Remember that Reagan did just this in 1986--he accepted all who were in the US, but tried to close the border to Mexico.
3
It is not illegal to be here without papers.
It is, however, illegal to hire those without papers.
Notice my common thread?
Labor is not the problem.
Capital is the problem.
It is, however, illegal to hire those without papers.
Notice my common thread?
Labor is not the problem.
Capital is the problem.
1
A lot has happened since the Editorial Board wrote this. With a candidate like Trump on the loose, copy that's current can be outdated 5 minutes later.
Tomorrow those who hadn't already heard on the latest from a George Stephanopoulos interview with Trump will hear the candidate not only defend himself but throw out another Muslim slur for good measure.
But the Board surely sheds some needed and valuable public opinion statistics about how Americans really feel about immigration. It was only 3 years ago that the bipartisan Senate passage of comprehensive immigration reform was trounced in the House, never to be revived again. Senator Rubio was for immigration reform before he wasn't.
But with Trump on the scene, excoriating both Mexicans and Muslims for rapes and murders, it's helpful to look at these "few simple truths on immigration."
Not the least of which is, without immigration, few of us would be here. Come to think of it, nobody would, except for Native Americans, or descendants of Spanish conquerors. Even original "Americans" were English immigrants of a sort.
Frankly, the United States of America wouldn't be what they are without immigration and the energy and skills they brought to a developing land.
Either we are a nation of immigrants--properly vetted and regulate, naturally--or we aren't.
Tomorrow those who hadn't already heard on the latest from a George Stephanopoulos interview with Trump will hear the candidate not only defend himself but throw out another Muslim slur for good measure.
But the Board surely sheds some needed and valuable public opinion statistics about how Americans really feel about immigration. It was only 3 years ago that the bipartisan Senate passage of comprehensive immigration reform was trounced in the House, never to be revived again. Senator Rubio was for immigration reform before he wasn't.
But with Trump on the scene, excoriating both Mexicans and Muslims for rapes and murders, it's helpful to look at these "few simple truths on immigration."
Not the least of which is, without immigration, few of us would be here. Come to think of it, nobody would, except for Native Americans, or descendants of Spanish conquerors. Even original "Americans" were English immigrants of a sort.
Frankly, the United States of America wouldn't be what they are without immigration and the energy and skills they brought to a developing land.
Either we are a nation of immigrants--properly vetted and regulate, naturally--or we aren't.
142
" Come to think of it, nobody would, except for Native Americans, or descendants of Spanish conquerors. Even original "Americans" were English immigrants of a sort. "
In one sense everyone who was born here is native as a person.
If, however, one considers ancestry as defining immigrant, then only African-Americans can be considered non-immigrant, since they were forcibly brought here. The people who are generally referred to as Native Americans are also immigrants, except their ancestors happened to come here a lot earlier.
In one sense everyone who was born here is native as a person.
If, however, one considers ancestry as defining immigrant, then only African-Americans can be considered non-immigrant, since they were forcibly brought here. The people who are generally referred to as Native Americans are also immigrants, except their ancestors happened to come here a lot earlier.
1
"Not the least of which is, without immigration, few of us would be here. Come to think of it, nobody would, except for Native Americans, or descendants of Spanish conquerors."
Spanish conquerors were immigrants in the same sense as the French, Dutch and British who settled large parts of North America.
Nice try though.
Spanish conquerors were immigrants in the same sense as the French, Dutch and British who settled large parts of North America.
Nice try though.
"A nation of immigrants - properly vetted and regulated"
With respect, is not the issue those immigrants who are not vetted; the so called illegal aliens?
There are many citizens who do not want to grant them amnesty; nor do they want more of them to enter the US. Some of Trump's support has evolved from his recognizing these wants, which will not go away, even if he does.
With respect, is not the issue those immigrants who are not vetted; the so called illegal aliens?
There are many citizens who do not want to grant them amnesty; nor do they want more of them to enter the US. Some of Trump's support has evolved from his recognizing these wants, which will not go away, even if he does.
6
I can remember how things were in the 60s and 70s. While the minimum wage was $1.60, construction workers made $10 or $15 an hour or more. They were all US citizens, some unionized, some not. Their employers were not paying this wage out of the goodness of their heart - that was what it took to get the workers they needed.
The same thing was true in other blue-collar occupations like janitorial work, meat-packing, and landscaping. Working men had to be paid well, because there just weren't that many of them.
Now the situation is very different. Unskilled US citizens have a difficult time finding work at any wage. There is no doubt that the huge number of illegal immigrants have depressed the wages and working conditions for these men. Young black guys face a 50% unemployment rate, as practically no employer will hire them as long as hard-working illegal immigrants are available.
The same thing was true in other blue-collar occupations like janitorial work, meat-packing, and landscaping. Working men had to be paid well, because there just weren't that many of them.
Now the situation is very different. Unskilled US citizens have a difficult time finding work at any wage. There is no doubt that the huge number of illegal immigrants have depressed the wages and working conditions for these men. Young black guys face a 50% unemployment rate, as practically no employer will hire them as long as hard-working illegal immigrants are available.
253
"Young black guys face a 50% unemployment rate, as practically no employer will hire them as long as hard-working illegal immigrants are available." With respect, your "assertion" is ridiculous. This 50% unemployment rate among African-American young men has little to do with "illegal" hard-working immigrants. You might factor in drug-use, incarceration and lack of employable skills and training. The immigrant might have come to the US from Mexico or South America as an experienced brick layer. Of course, he would be more valuable to an employer than any young person without such experience and skills.
2
Some folks would have the same to say in regard to the H1B visa fiasco.
7
Yeah, this is what the Democrats and elites don't want you to know. All they have to do is get the occupations they are hiring for classified as jobs Americans don't want to do and they don't even have to pay minimum wage so the physically hardest jobs or at least the ones that can be done under the table end up paying the least. Meanwhile the Dems keep poor and naive Americans hooked thinking they are the good guys with another $0.50-$1.00 increase in the minimum wage. We really need a political revolution...too bad we got Hillary instead.
5
While I certainly support Hillary, I find promises by presidential nominees to fix things to be empty rhetoric. I definitely believe that Hillary wants to fix immigration, but that is a long way from being able to do it.
There is reference here to Mr. Obama's "failure" to fix immigration. To his credit, he tried. He also tried the executive action route. His 'dreamers order meant to help those brought here as children come out of the shadows and stay (for now) legally was struck down by the Supreme Court after the GOP brought suit against it. Why does anyone think that Hillary would fair any better?
There is reference here to Mr. Obama's "failure" to fix immigration. To his credit, he tried. He also tried the executive action route. His 'dreamers order meant to help those brought here as children come out of the shadows and stay (for now) legally was struck down by the Supreme Court after the GOP brought suit against it. Why does anyone think that Hillary would fair any better?
56
Could be that the position taken by establishment Republicans in favor of Trump’s view of immigration is merely a reaction to the left’s unwise open-border mantra – it goes well beyond a “policy” and approaches the divine, politically correct status of saving California Smelt (at the cost of countless farming jobs). It’s born of a conviction that culture has no real value and that there’s certainly nothing “exceptional” about America’s worthy of protecting against unassimilable numbers who were reared in different cultures – certainly not enough to balance the perceived value in importing a lot of presumed Democratic votes.
I’ve been commenting for years in this forum on this issue, and those who have taken the trouble to read those comments know that I believe we must align our immigration laws with our economic needs – if we have skill gaps that can only be filled by Londoners, then open the gates to Londoners; or by Indians, then open the gates to Indians; or by Guatemalans or Mexicans, open the gates to them. And I believe that we must find a way to eventual legalization of the 11-30 million people here illegally, provided we first shut the spigot at our southern border.
But this notion that we have a social obligation to erase borders in some grand economic osmosis that equalizes misery across the continents, so clearly what so many liberals believe, is nonsense, and does NOT represent what the vast majority of Americans believe.
I’ve been commenting for years in this forum on this issue, and those who have taken the trouble to read those comments know that I believe we must align our immigration laws with our economic needs – if we have skill gaps that can only be filled by Londoners, then open the gates to Londoners; or by Indians, then open the gates to Indians; or by Guatemalans or Mexicans, open the gates to them. And I believe that we must find a way to eventual legalization of the 11-30 million people here illegally, provided we first shut the spigot at our southern border.
But this notion that we have a social obligation to erase borders in some grand economic osmosis that equalizes misery across the continents, so clearly what so many liberals believe, is nonsense, and does NOT represent what the vast majority of Americans believe.
172
Wow, Richard. We should only allow immigrants who some committee approves of? Or should there be a committee at all? I'm sure Donald Trump is qualified to decide which immigrants are "the good ones" and which are the rapists and murderers. Let's put him in charge of your spigot.
Let's see, the people who work at Mara Lago, they're the good ones. Oh yeah, then there are the Trump wives, and all of those Miss Universe women who he claimed to have woken up next to, saying, "I can't believe what I'm getting!"
Are those your criteria, Richard? Because they are not the criteria of the United States, historically or legally.
Yes, we have a problem with immigration. No, I have not got the solution. But the solutions offered by the GOP have all been soulless rants that reveal a lack of humanity and reek of "I've got mine, so get lost!"
Let's see, the people who work at Mara Lago, they're the good ones. Oh yeah, then there are the Trump wives, and all of those Miss Universe women who he claimed to have woken up next to, saying, "I can't believe what I'm getting!"
Are those your criteria, Richard? Because they are not the criteria of the United States, historically or legally.
Yes, we have a problem with immigration. No, I have not got the solution. But the solutions offered by the GOP have all been soulless rants that reveal a lack of humanity and reek of "I've got mine, so get lost!"
224
The Left's ''open border'' mantra? The Democrat's ''social obligation to erase borders?''
If these positions are actually common Left, liberal, or Democratic positions, why does no one hear and repeat them but Fox, am radio, and the rest of the right wing propoganda industry?
If these positions are actually common Left, liberal, or Democratic positions, why does no one hear and repeat them but Fox, am radio, and the rest of the right wing propoganda industry?
27
It s amazing that you know what "liberals" think. It is a sure thing
what you understand. Nothing.
what you understand. Nothing.
15
As hard as us truck drivers were working, the folks who filled our trailers in the fields clearly put us to shame. We sat in air-conditioned trucks while they worked hard in 110 degree dusty heat or all night long. To add to it all, many of these hard workers, who were paid less than one-fifth as much as us drivers, were teen-age girls and their mothers and grand-mothers.
Needless to say, the "debate" ended right there. Several white drivers grabbed their microphones to counter, only to put the mic back down when they realized they had no case. We NEED the energetic, dynamic people who come from south of our borders whether we know it or not. Their idealism and action to make a better life for themselves makes all of our lives better. They deserve our warm embrace, not our scorn.