The use of the reflexive pronoun, particularly "myself", is also linked to the fear that the simple objective pronoun, "me" is somehow grammatically wrong.
We now have an epidemic of "between you and I" and "he gave it to you and I" - at least on this side of the Atlantic - and "me" has become almost taboo so that people now say "he gave it to myself" rather than use the dreaded "me".
We now have an epidemic of "between you and I" and "he gave it to you and I" - at least on this side of the Atlantic - and "me" has become almost taboo so that people now say "he gave it to myself" rather than use the dreaded "me".
12
Thank you for writing this article as I miss William Safire. First Year College now includes
a required course for how to write a paper required in their studies. Regents Exams are no
longer required, a mistake for education. Lennie Bernstein always griped about using
"tunes" in music. English professors protest the use of ending a sentence when asked a
question with "You Know". My gripe is "really". Spelling computer checks don't
recognize words. If you don't possess the old dictionaries the good APPS on an i-phone
will help. Top voice over coach fined you a nickel every time you said "the" with a soft "T"
i.e., (thee). It's "The" and radio announcers don't help here as they say it all the time.
The English language is full of ambiguous words making it a hard language difficult still to
learn.
a required course for how to write a paper required in their studies. Regents Exams are no
longer required, a mistake for education. Lennie Bernstein always griped about using
"tunes" in music. English professors protest the use of ending a sentence when asked a
question with "You Know". My gripe is "really". Spelling computer checks don't
recognize words. If you don't possess the old dictionaries the good APPS on an i-phone
will help. Top voice over coach fined you a nickel every time you said "the" with a soft "T"
i.e., (thee). It's "The" and radio announcers don't help here as they say it all the time.
The English language is full of ambiguous words making it a hard language difficult still to
learn.
1
Mr Cohen and readers:. Any insight into the new and fashionable gender free term, "ze"? How and why did it get here. Haven't seen it in mainstream journalism-----yet.
4
There is nothing more creepy than asking a hotel employee for an extra towel, or someone to adjust the heat, or a wake-up call, and getting this response: "It would be my pleasure." That is as big a lie as any that Donald Trump tells regularly. Getting me a towel cannot be a pleasure for anyone.
But what is worse than the irritation of the feigned obsequiousness of the hotel employee (it is not his/her fault, it is the employer's idea) is the way falsehood has infected our whole society. Listen to the ads on radio or TV, or read them in average newspapers (or even above-average newspapers like The New York Times). There is so much false hyperbole that we accept it as normal and true. It has even enabled the worst candidate for president in US history to say repeatedly that he is the best candidate, and the best at everything else he can think of, and for nearly half of us to believe him (masculine pronoun intended). We won't be saying "Merry Christmas," we will be saying, "Have the Merriest Chrstmas of all time."
But what is worse than the irritation of the feigned obsequiousness of the hotel employee (it is not his/her fault, it is the employer's idea) is the way falsehood has infected our whole society. Listen to the ads on radio or TV, or read them in average newspapers (or even above-average newspapers like The New York Times). There is so much false hyperbole that we accept it as normal and true. It has even enabled the worst candidate for president in US history to say repeatedly that he is the best candidate, and the best at everything else he can think of, and for nearly half of us to believe him (masculine pronoun intended). We won't be saying "Merry Christmas," we will be saying, "Have the Merriest Chrstmas of all time."
3
Well done Roger! Kudos to yourself from myself!
1
"Yourself," while revolting, is the least of it.
There's the atrocious misuse of the past tense "sat" and "stood" in the place of participles: "She was sat/stood in her office" for "She was sitting/standing in her office." You hear even newsreaders using this abomination in the UK regularly.
And let's not let the US off the hook so easily. The verbalization of nouns has reached epidemic proportions this side of the pond: "Before we transition to the next phase" and "I referenced that book" (for "before we move to the next phase" and "I referred to that book").
Linguists will tell you that English is a living language that will undergo such transformations naturally and organically. Fair enough. But it doesn't mean we must throw the grammar books out, or that we have to like the transitions (See??? It's a *noun* not a verb!!).
There's the atrocious misuse of the past tense "sat" and "stood" in the place of participles: "She was sat/stood in her office" for "She was sitting/standing in her office." You hear even newsreaders using this abomination in the UK regularly.
And let's not let the US off the hook so easily. The verbalization of nouns has reached epidemic proportions this side of the pond: "Before we transition to the next phase" and "I referenced that book" (for "before we move to the next phase" and "I referred to that book").
Linguists will tell you that English is a living language that will undergo such transformations naturally and organically. Fair enough. But it doesn't mean we must throw the grammar books out, or that we have to like the transitions (See??? It's a *noun* not a verb!!).
6
For laughs replace "stuns" with the preferred synonym which is "stupefies" in the following sentence:
"Melanie Trump stuns in white dress"
"Melanie Trump stupefies in white dress"
3rd person present: stupefies
make (someone) unable to think or feel properly.
"Melanie Trump stuns in white dress"
"Melanie Trump stupefies in white dress"
3rd person present: stupefies
make (someone) unable to think or feel properly.
4
Reflexive pronouns are exaggerated (a reflex action) to emphasize the presence or effect of the "self" in any sociological observation. In plain English expect more reflexivity to be reflected in circular discourse.
Language is always changing....and plain old English would be Ye Olde English?
Just get over it Roger and carry on with a stiff upper lip, Sir.
Just get over it Roger and carry on with a stiff upper lip, Sir.
5
I hear many of these phrases in my workplace - the "ask", "bandwidth", "reach out" - they all make me cringe. But the winner - the top (bottom??) of the heap - the one that makes me want to run screaming into the night like a Munch painting is "do the needful". I can't wait to retire so that I never, ever have to hear that odious phrase again.
4
I myself am not fond of the expression "across the pond."
7
Oh, we in the U.S. have had this problem with ONE reflexive pronoun for some time: "myself." "Please respond to Mr. Smith or myself," "There's bad blood between Jane and myself," "Do you want to go to the mall with Harry and myself?" I believe this intrusion of the self stems, in our case, from an ignorance of pronoun case and a fear of guessing wrong: "Is it Harry and ME or Harry and I??? Oh, god…well, Harry and MYSELF! Whew!" The problem is, aside from grammatical slovenliness and a certain pomposity, that we lose the emphasis of the pronoun in "I know. I saw it myself." We also lose the specificity of the Irish usage: "Would you like to speak with Himself?" We are not an Irish household but we do adore that, and use it. Love this article, by the way!
6
'Curated'. Oy.
17
A question for you all:
When did 'media' become a singular noun? Seems I just woke up one morning and there it was. For me, it's still:
Medium: singular
Media: plural
I can't tell you how much 'The media says...' grates.
Or am I just an old pedant?
p.
When did 'media' become a singular noun? Seems I just woke up one morning and there it was. For me, it's still:
Medium: singular
Media: plural
I can't tell you how much 'The media says...' grates.
Or am I just an old pedant?
p.
5
So Mr Cohen, Like awesome. I've always been curious why so many younger people , and even TV reporters, start a sentence with "so.". Is this something , like, we owe to Valley Girl talk? Is it taught in J Schools? Also curious about the use and misuse of "like."Any insight would be appreciated. Myself, I am stumped.
1
My father was dour, reserved, and grouchy. However, sometimes as we sat around the dinner table where he dominated the conversation, he would tell us a joke. The tone of his voice would change. We would all smile in anticipation of laughter at the punchline. His jokes were good. In several scenarios, he would start with "So the man said to me, "Hello!" and I responded "Hello yourself." That in itself made us laugh.
4
MY dad always got a bigger kick out of seeing that most of his audience didn't get the humor. Those who did get it, also got respect.
1
Well done Roger. Has anybody noticed that the word disconcerting (troubling) has been widely replaced with the word concerning (about)? I have heard national TV anchors make this error.
3
Mr. Cohen could have actually talked to some linguists about what seems to be a fascinating change in formal speech. Rather than ranting and raving about things over which he has no control, and nor should anyone, he should take a step back and try to understand where and when such usage developed.
That's how language is actually studied, not through irate tirades against the current of linguistic evolution.
That's how language is actually studied, not through irate tirades against the current of linguistic evolution.
2
There is a time and a place for irate tirades. This may just be such a time.
13
Hahaha.
Or should that be lol?
Or should that be lol?
6
Must be annoying to be one of the handful of people who hand-build bicycle wheels for racers: bespoke spokes.
5
There are recent reports of a faint rumbling of the earth at the grave of P. G. Wodehouse.
9
The reflexive pronoun problem is now so pervasive in the U.S. that it's had to see how it can be reversed. It is illiteracy pure and simple.
2
Americans are always, and ever, in the business of trying to make themselves SOUND smarter than they are. Just consider your audience. Your actual goal should be to help them understand what you're saying, not confusing them with an advertisement for your erudition (which it doesn't.)
7
Oh, Roger, do get started on "bespoke."
3
circle back
3
Is the irony totally lost on the NYT that one of its more well-known columnists would have an extended pop at irritating misuse of English? Perhaps they might like to look a little closer to home to find how the English language can be mangled beyond recognition in everyday usage in the USA.
3
these reflections on the reflexive are giving me reflux....oh yeah, have a nice day....be safe....whatever.
That was Marvelous! Thanks Roger.
2
and let's not forget "my bad". Exactly where did that bacteria come from?
10
What takes me aback is "absolutely". Before, in the affirmative, people answered "yes". Now it's "Absolutely". Just like "me" and "you", "yes" is also shorter. Absolutely.
2
I'm also sick of hearing "spot on!"
2
The "myself" epidemic is here as well, and it has been driving me nuts for years. "Myself and my wife went to bed early." Really? Were she away at her parents, would it be "Myself went to bed early"?
2
You have outdone yourself, Mr. Cohen.
2
Slow news day?
If this catches on I'll... I'll.... I don't know what I'll do. I'll start using it just to spite myself's own face. [I need some practice. I don't quite have the hang of it.]
While youself is at it, why not a column on the new NET, I mean MET museum logo and rebranding? It's as if Coka-cola decided that their logo was out of date and needed to be modernized.
If this catches on I'll... I'll.... I don't know what I'll do. I'll start using it just to spite myself's own face. [I need some practice. I don't quite have the hang of it.]
While youself is at it, why not a column on the new NET, I mean MET museum logo and rebranding? It's as if Coka-cola decided that their logo was out of date and needed to be modernized.
2
Let's not forget to "speak to that issue". Since when do I talk to issues, rather than talk ABOUT issues?
5
Okay, we're all straying from reflexive pronouns. I know this one is old, but how did "take a meeting" come about. Can't we all just have a meeting? Or just meet?
Thank heavens that I am not the only person being driven mad by the misuse of the reflexive pronouns. The thing that galls me the most is that so many people only listen to the way someone speaks rather than pay attention to what's being said. Consequently, the bumptious pretenders posh up and let rip with the 'selves' because they heard it from some other posh thing somewhere and surely it couldn't have been incorrect because he/she spoke so well...
2
May be it is better than the rudeness of some Ugly Americans - who call folks - that woman, that man, chick etc.
My one request is never again to hear, "the elephant in the room."
7
Alas, grammar is a game of language power played out over the long haul. If enough people start saying and using in print, "As for myself," well, sorry Mr. Cohen, but that will be that!
Then there's "have a conversation about" and "narratives" . . .
3
What a breath of fresh air. Myself, I am in the weeds with Politics. It's lovely to hear yourself take it to the next level.
5
I, too, cringe at misspellings, ungrammatical sentences, and misplaced apostrophes. I harbor a long list of irritating phrases.
And then I remind myself: Language is a living thing. Much of what is now "correct" was once cringeworthy. Locutions I once derided have slowly crept into my vocabulary. Others, I've purposely adopted for their sound or quirkiness or youthfulness or political utility.
So, for starters, have a look at the OED. And get over yourself.
And then I remind myself: Language is a living thing. Much of what is now "correct" was once cringeworthy. Locutions I once derided have slowly crept into my vocabulary. Others, I've purposely adopted for their sound or quirkiness or youthfulness or political utility.
So, for starters, have a look at the OED. And get over yourself.
13
It began when "problems" became "issues."
5
Speaking as an Englishman, I have never heard a single person use the word 'yourself' in the manner alleged.
Additionally, the irony of an American attempting to lecture the English about the use of the English language is comical. English is not a phonetically simple langauge yet your consistent attempts to make it so have relegated the poor letter u to obscurity. Perhaps you should consider removing the log from your own eye before worrying overmuch about our little splinter...
Additionally, the irony of an American attempting to lecture the English about the use of the English language is comical. English is not a phonetically simple langauge yet your consistent attempts to make it so have relegated the poor letter u to obscurity. Perhaps you should consider removing the log from your own eye before worrying overmuch about our little splinter...
4
Game changer. Plethora -- which should never be uttered at all, much less in the home.
2
Language is and always has been a living, changing phenomenon. "Deal with it!!!!"
2
Yes! Especially nauseating is the use of the sanctimonious and meta-unctious expression "reaching out" as a substitute for "to contact." But even the NYT is not without fault in this matter. I stopped reading the Sunday Book Review Section years ago when I realized that they couldn't review a book without somewhere using the word "quirky."
1
Oh Mr. Cohen - tribulation you have indeed suffered in the matter of English usage but I assure you there is far worse. Put yourself in the position of myself, a college professor who has received term papers written in email and twitter acronymical abbreviations and been viewed with uncomprehending wonder by a student who has been informed that one does not begin a citation with BTW.
7
Here's a few hints:
1. When people use the reflexive pronoun simply respond in kind.
2. When in France and ordering a coke: Excusez-moi. Veuillez m’apporter un verre propre plein de cubes de glace et une bouteille de coke sera ouvert à ma table.
3. When you 'pop' make sure you sing 'Pop goes the weasel!'
4. When YOLO is used simply respond with: DOOR (Dependent On One's Religion)
5. Regarding 'beeps and pings' perhaps it is best to at least look at the manual?
6. An inept sommelier should be reported to the Maître D’Hôtel.
7. Fine print is there for a reason.
8. Regarding Automated Responses, I simply wait for it to say: 'press or say' and I say 'Representative'.
9. A driverless transportion system will save lives and allow people with disabilities the same freedom that persons without disabilities currently have.
10. Revenge was not the goal regarding Osama bin Laden. The goal was to make the world a better and safer place and that goal required him to no longer exist.
11. I don't know about a 'thought shower'....Somehow it causes me to think of how a porn director might be telling the actors and actress involved in a scene that they should just ad-lib.
Thanks for the article. I enjoyed it.
1. When people use the reflexive pronoun simply respond in kind.
2. When in France and ordering a coke: Excusez-moi. Veuillez m’apporter un verre propre plein de cubes de glace et une bouteille de coke sera ouvert à ma table.
3. When you 'pop' make sure you sing 'Pop goes the weasel!'
4. When YOLO is used simply respond with: DOOR (Dependent On One's Religion)
5. Regarding 'beeps and pings' perhaps it is best to at least look at the manual?
6. An inept sommelier should be reported to the Maître D’Hôtel.
7. Fine print is there for a reason.
8. Regarding Automated Responses, I simply wait for it to say: 'press or say' and I say 'Representative'.
9. A driverless transportion system will save lives and allow people with disabilities the same freedom that persons without disabilities currently have.
10. Revenge was not the goal regarding Osama bin Laden. The goal was to make the world a better and safer place and that goal required him to no longer exist.
11. I don't know about a 'thought shower'....Somehow it causes me to think of how a porn director might be telling the actors and actress involved in a scene that they should just ad-lib.
Thanks for the article. I enjoyed it.
9
Oh Susannah, myself enjoyed your response immensely!!!!!
2
Let's not discard the Irish use of 'himself' - the way a wife refers (sometimes sardonically) to her husband. It can be used as subject or object.
I also like the Englishman's 'her indoors' - husband referring to his wife.
I also like the Englishman's 'her indoors' - husband referring to his wife.
"Thanks so much" Roger! Wait. Why not just plain "thanks Roger?" What does the word "so" add? The "so" in "thanks so much" does not work for myself. But boy i hear it 30 times a day. Let's ditch that waste word.
That you to the author for a great article!
On the subject of 'global English', this poem by Clive James:
http://www.clivejames.com/poetry/james/windows
http://www.clivejames.com/poetry/james/windows
4
Ahem. A bit rich having an American criticize the British for their English. When Americans master the concept of the adverb, get back to us.
11
Very funny, the use of "yourself" sounds like an exaggerated Irish accent. Perhaps the speaker is trying to suggest they are not jingoistic Brexit lovers.
1
and here in the US we're having an epidemic of "..ive of"s, as in "...is suggestive of ...", from your first sentence. How about "suggests"?
Everybody, procure and read a copy of English Grammar, by George O. Curme.
I don't want to advertise brand names insofar as I am not sponsored, and/or generously paid to do so, by this or that corporate interest, exploiting consumers' gullibility by inciting them to promote inter-brand rivalries*, however...
Memorise the cover, and read this book:
https://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Simplified-George-Curme/dp/006460...
I have been rereading it for four decades now. Its one lacuna is that it contains no section instructing students of English grammar, of which myself I are one, on the proper order of qualitative and quantitative adjects in sentence syntax. See? It nowhere explains how to describe a bunch of "...big, black, mangy, diseased dogs, lost and wandering in a pack of anywhere between seven to eleven feral individuals."
But as for the rest, and as to dismissive critiques of the book's "classical" approach (parts of speech, grammar of the parts of speech, syntax of the parts of speech), pay no attention. Fee Fi Fo Fum!
Y'all could do a lot worse, in trying to learn what you are talking about.
Buy me a copy, I've had four stolen!
*Historical examples: Microsoft/Apple; Adobe/Microsoft (desktop publishing, fonts, Framemaker); Netscape Navigator/Explorer/Opera; Yahoo/Google... The worst thing about this now-decades long phenomenon is that office proles were so ready to stand up and crow in defence of one or another of their exploiters! Criminy!
I don't want to advertise brand names insofar as I am not sponsored, and/or generously paid to do so, by this or that corporate interest, exploiting consumers' gullibility by inciting them to promote inter-brand rivalries*, however...
Memorise the cover, and read this book:
https://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Simplified-George-Curme/dp/006460...
I have been rereading it for four decades now. Its one lacuna is that it contains no section instructing students of English grammar, of which myself I are one, on the proper order of qualitative and quantitative adjects in sentence syntax. See? It nowhere explains how to describe a bunch of "...big, black, mangy, diseased dogs, lost and wandering in a pack of anywhere between seven to eleven feral individuals."
But as for the rest, and as to dismissive critiques of the book's "classical" approach (parts of speech, grammar of the parts of speech, syntax of the parts of speech), pay no attention. Fee Fi Fo Fum!
Y'all could do a lot worse, in trying to learn what you are talking about.
Buy me a copy, I've had four stolen!
*Historical examples: Microsoft/Apple; Adobe/Microsoft (desktop publishing, fonts, Framemaker); Netscape Navigator/Explorer/Opera; Yahoo/Google... The worst thing about this now-decades long phenomenon is that office proles were so ready to stand up and crow in defence of one or another of their exploiters! Criminy!
5
Oops, a little "speed", I guess.
"...order of qualitative and quantitative adjects"
Should obviously be:
"...order of qualitative and quantitative adjectives."
Mea culpa, amigos.
"...order of qualitative and quantitative adjects"
Should obviously be:
"...order of qualitative and quantitative adjectives."
Mea culpa, amigos.
1
Or get Fowler's 2/e, which you should be able to find used.
1
And like if you want to like say something, like you want to express yourself then like you have to like have the right words to like use too. That's like what I hear from like the younger folks too.
8
Some amusing comments here "off the back of" Mr. Cohen's column.
Among the most awful recent linguistic horrors are "going forward" and "reaching out". "Going forward" is mostly not only superfluous but used when "going backward" would be impossible, or absurd. "Reaching out" now replaces a range of useful and meaningful expressions with a cliché intended to convey a positive warmth but oozing plastic insincerity.
5
Having lived here for ten years, I wholeheartedly agree with Mr Cohen how prevalent and annoying the misuse of "yourself" is. Also confusing its and it's. You see and hear it everywhere. It's not rocket science.
3
Like! Couldn't agree more. Rock and roll. Second that. Am on board. Count me in. I'm game. Am in.
Now please propose a replacement for "Selfie".
You take care of yourself, OK? Catch-up later. Have a good one. See ya. Bah.
Now please propose a replacement for "Selfie".
You take care of yourself, OK? Catch-up later. Have a good one. See ya. Bah.
4
Last time I spoke to someone in England everything I said was adjudged as:
"Splendid"
be it
"Good Morning", "Might I speak to...", "Goodbye".
"Splendid"
be it
"Good Morning", "Might I speak to...", "Goodbye".
2
Good one Roger!
Its such an irritant in it’s way — perhaps also to yourselve’s?!?!
No worries!
Its such an irritant in it’s way — perhaps also to yourselve’s?!?!
No worries!
2
lol a bunch of old ppl complaining about the "misuse" of language. Have you ever thought about what your grandpa would say to the way you use those words today? Misuse? lol cute
My grandfather - both my grandfathers, in fact, one American and one Australian - spoke and wrote excellent standard English, and neither would offer a word of reproach. No, I tell a lie. They might object to my too frequent use of words the NYT does not consider fit to print - although Chaucer and Swift employed them, and they date back to before William the Conqueror, which makes them, I think, as good English as you can get.
;}
;}
1
The reflexive is here—it's been with us since at least the early oughts. Here it's "myself" that is used instead of "yourself." It's used in exactly the same way, though, as a misguided performance of excessive and suspect politeness. "He and myself went," "they and myself thought," etc., leading one to surmise that the speaker's self must somehow be a different entity from the speaker.
This annoyance has a fellow traveler in the misused past-perfect. No one ever "did," "said," or "asked" anything, much less "has done," "has said," or "has asked"; no, they all "had done," "had said," or "had asked." I first heard this in the mid-90s and hated it instantly, not only for the genuine confusion that it caused and continues to cause, but for its air of humblebragging pretension. Now I hear it on NPR. I'm surprised I have any hair left to tear. If people keep plastering "yet" all over instead of using "but" or "however," I may snatch myself bald.
And please don't "reach out" to me—I will bite.
This annoyance has a fellow traveler in the misused past-perfect. No one ever "did," "said," or "asked" anything, much less "has done," "has said," or "has asked"; no, they all "had done," "had said," or "had asked." I first heard this in the mid-90s and hated it instantly, not only for the genuine confusion that it caused and continues to cause, but for its air of humblebragging pretension. Now I hear it on NPR. I'm surprised I have any hair left to tear. If people keep plastering "yet" all over instead of using "but" or "however," I may snatch myself bald.
And please don't "reach out" to me—I will bite.
2
If only "you and me" were good enough for Americans. We are in tye midst of a national "I" crisis, and I do not refer to Trump's "I, alone." Talk show geusts, sitcom stars, news anchors... everywhere you look or listen aomeone is saying "for my wife and I," "he spoke to my husband and I," that left Jim and I to pay the bill." PLEASE, someone make it stop!! Please.
7
The English use of "pop" may have taken on new usage. But I recall, either the summer of '74 or '75 while visiting the U.K., a Londoner has breached the walls protecting Buckingham Palace and climbed into Her Majesty's boudoir.; she was in bed but not asleep. She was poised enough to react calmly and she offered him a cigarette. (I know the Queen stopped smoking but not when.) The chap sat at the foot of her bed and had a smoke as did she. Small talk was shared and a footman entered the room. The Queen asked to show her unexpected visitor out. And the chap bid her farewell and followed the footman. Well, it did cause quite a stir. Next day, the Times had a cartoon on the editorial page that showed two blokes hanging out at Buckingham Palace gates. One says to the other, "Join me at my local for a pint?" And his friend replied, "Nope, go ahead but I'm gonna pop up and have a fag with the queen." And I began hearing "pop" as a common, casual verb to move quickly. I wondered then if its source might have been popovers, the pastry.
2
'Pop' has infected graphic arts, photography, even interior decorating. Seems to be a virtue if something 'pops' although I'd prefer it stay where it is.
Add to this the coercive and confused phrase and its variants, "You need to". Oh? How do you know I "need to"? Maybe I want to. Or maybe not.
Then there's the awful use of "impact" and "impactful". Lazy covers for effect and affect.
Oh, it goes on...
Then there's the awful use of "impact" and "impactful". Lazy covers for effect and affect.
Oh, it goes on...
That was a like good commentary on like using superfluous like words in like evrything like people say. Like ?!?!
Can someone please explain the annoying habit of beginning a sentence with "so"? It seems to have replaced "like".
1
Evidently Mr. Cohen has not been to Los Angeles recently.
1
"That would not be good for a country, or what is left of it, that recently saw two old Etonians, David Cameron and Boris Johnson, duel over Britain’s European future and produce a disaster for myself, yourself, herself, himself and just about any self."
I don't believe it is a disaster.
There is some readjustment going on and we have not yet really escaped from The Monster.
Theresa needs to get us out sooner.
Ahnd out musst really mean out.
We need to be totally free of the sickness called "The European Idea"
I don't believe it is a disaster.
There is some readjustment going on and we have not yet really escaped from The Monster.
Theresa needs to get us out sooner.
Ahnd out musst really mean out.
We need to be totally free of the sickness called "The European Idea"
"The English reflexive pronoun thing has not crossed the Atlantic"
Where have you been? Are you serious?
I have been driven crazy literally for years by people's misuse of the reflexive pronoun, "They invited Roger and myself" and "She gave it to Roger and myself." The issue has been rampant on this side of the ocean!
It may be that our tourist and public service industries as a whole have not picked up the "yourself" you describe. That said, I am forever yelling "me, not myself" at the TV or cringing when someone in my presence does that. Along with the death of the adverb ("ly - seriousLY, not serious!") the misuse of reflexive pronouns has been around for a long time.
Where have you been? Are you serious?
I have been driven crazy literally for years by people's misuse of the reflexive pronoun, "They invited Roger and myself" and "She gave it to Roger and myself." The issue has been rampant on this side of the ocean!
It may be that our tourist and public service industries as a whole have not picked up the "yourself" you describe. That said, I am forever yelling "me, not myself" at the TV or cringing when someone in my presence does that. Along with the death of the adverb ("ly - seriousLY, not serious!") the misuse of reflexive pronouns has been around for a long time.
6
The biggest linguistic fraud is "doing more with less", which actually means doing less with less.
The second biggest fraud is that all you need to do more with less is to be "creative". As in "creative accounting", perhaps?
The second biggest fraud is that all you need to do more with less is to be "creative". As in "creative accounting", perhaps?
7
I’m listening as I write to Morgan Freeman narrating the bio of Hillary Rodham Clinton at the Philly Democratic convention and concluding from it that based on the presentation, he’s probably got a pretty good shot at getting the Pope to beatify her – which may be a first for a Methodist; and while I note, curiously, that Roger is complaining about England’s tendency to overuse reflexive pronouns.
While this (probably) transitory English oddity is annoying, Roger’s focus on it puts me in mind of one of Gore Vidal’s characters, a young man in his 1830s “Burr”, who took on the persona of an ancient curmudgeon of old New York City (“Old Poltroon”) to write a satirical weekly column on how irritated he was at all that had changed since he was a boy in the very early days of the republic. I’m wondering if Roger is trying out for a similar role. If so, he’s either too young or too old for the part, and should stick to analyzing the emblematic tyrannical characteristics of Erdogan’s reign, or complaining eternally about the Brexit vote.
But with the propensity of proofers to get whole words wrong, not to mention punctuation, I’m TRULY impressed at his and his editor’s getting the mishmashed apostrophes correct enough to successfully entertain. That was a very big deal for a newspaper.
Morgan Freeman finally finished what might have been more appropriate for a eulogy; and I’ve come to the end of my patience with Roger’s impatience at Blighty’s surfeit of “yourselves”.
While this (probably) transitory English oddity is annoying, Roger’s focus on it puts me in mind of one of Gore Vidal’s characters, a young man in his 1830s “Burr”, who took on the persona of an ancient curmudgeon of old New York City (“Old Poltroon”) to write a satirical weekly column on how irritated he was at all that had changed since he was a boy in the very early days of the republic. I’m wondering if Roger is trying out for a similar role. If so, he’s either too young or too old for the part, and should stick to analyzing the emblematic tyrannical characteristics of Erdogan’s reign, or complaining eternally about the Brexit vote.
But with the propensity of proofers to get whole words wrong, not to mention punctuation, I’m TRULY impressed at his and his editor’s getting the mishmashed apostrophes correct enough to successfully entertain. That was a very big deal for a newspaper.
Morgan Freeman finally finished what might have been more appropriate for a eulogy; and I’ve come to the end of my patience with Roger’s impatience at Blighty’s surfeit of “yourselves”.
1
My boss has a new saying, when he's losing control of a meeting:
Ok, let me "tap the brakes" here......
Tap this, boss.
Ok, let me "tap the brakes" here......
Tap this, boss.
8
What drives me nuts is the use of "ask" in business. As in:
The "ask" is that you make 12 client contacts a day. The "ask" is that you "work through your book" twice a year.
That's too much to ask. Time to book.
The "ask" is that you make 12 client contacts a day. The "ask" is that you "work through your book" twice a year.
That's too much to ask. Time to book.
7
You missed:
"Just sayin....."
Or the more expansive:
"I'm just sayin....." AKA "IJS"
"Just sayin....."
Or the more expansive:
"I'm just sayin....." AKA "IJS"
6
Joe,
I am not sure exactly what the phrase "Just sayin'..." means. It appears to be be a false politesse to emphasize that what the speaker has just said is very clever and erudite. Usually the commenters in the NYT that end their posts with this phrase have said nothing that 200 people before them have already said and usually with better form.
I am not sure exactly what the phrase "Just sayin'..." means. It appears to be be a false politesse to emphasize that what the speaker has just said is very clever and erudite. Usually the commenters in the NYT that end their posts with this phrase have said nothing that 200 people before them have already said and usually with better form.
Were those examples curated by yourself?
5
I like this article.
Just sayin.......
Just sayin.......
4
I find this amusing coming from an American. We in Australia could never be accused of being over zealous in our use of the Queen's English but America's distortion of the language is something else.
For example,
- not distinguishing between adverbs and adjectives (eg, "he played good");
- including "right now" at least once in every sentence (mostly, the use of the present tense is adequate);
- converting nouns into verbs;
- attributing actions to inanimate objects (eg, the rocket launched);
- the excessive use of slang to the point that communication becomes annoyingly vague;
- including "here" or "right there" in a sentence when location has no relevance to the meaning.
I could go on but I accept that we in the colonies have developed our own quirky ways of misusing the language.
Then there is the spelling. I think Mr Webster overlooked the fact that often the spelling of a word provided guidance to how it should be pronounced. For example, in English English, the word "traveled" would be pronounced quite differently to "travelled".
For example,
- not distinguishing between adverbs and adjectives (eg, "he played good");
- including "right now" at least once in every sentence (mostly, the use of the present tense is adequate);
- converting nouns into verbs;
- attributing actions to inanimate objects (eg, the rocket launched);
- the excessive use of slang to the point that communication becomes annoyingly vague;
- including "here" or "right there" in a sentence when location has no relevance to the meaning.
I could go on but I accept that we in the colonies have developed our own quirky ways of misusing the language.
Then there is the spelling. I think Mr Webster overlooked the fact that often the spelling of a word provided guidance to how it should be pronounced. For example, in English English, the word "traveled" would be pronounced quite differently to "travelled".
7
"Good-paying jobs" seems to be here to stay. I hate it! Yet the well-educated people use it would never call themselves "good-educated." Not yet, anyway.
2
Thank you for a good long laugh during a tme when the world at home and abroad is anything but "no worries."
8
Ah Rog, ye'd be right. If ever I hear the phrase "drop dead yourself" it won't be in New Yawk. That's for soitan.
(Although to my lasting amusement I did come across a bike repair shop in Tralee that announced itself as "Jim Caball Himself" as a typically Oirish means of saying we don't give a rat's about Corps, Cos, Incs or LTDs. A photo of this same bidniss holds a place of prominence in my office. The "in the know" have to have it "'splained." And that makes me laugh inside too.)
(Although to my lasting amusement I did come across a bike repair shop in Tralee that announced itself as "Jim Caball Himself" as a typically Oirish means of saying we don't give a rat's about Corps, Cos, Incs or LTDs. A photo of this same bidniss holds a place of prominence in my office. The "in the know" have to have it "'splained." And that makes me laugh inside too.)
4
As with so many others, I enjoyed the article immensely and imagined Mr. Cohen's blood pressure rising as I worked my way through it.
But the letters! They were hilarious! And creative! Really and truly! I'm home alone, and I was laughing out loud - oh, excuse me - LOL.
But the letters! They were hilarious! And creative! Really and truly! I'm home alone, and I was laughing out loud - oh, excuse me - LOL.
5
What? No love for "apotheosis?"
“thought shower”? Ugh. Mental sprinkers do not sound effective.
But Roger, go to some nice restaurant and try to avoid any curated list of housemade anything. Just ask for good food and something nice to drink.
But Roger, go to some nice restaurant and try to avoid any curated list of housemade anything. Just ask for good food and something nice to drink.
2
There has been a ghost of the reflexive pronoun in the US for a long time, for example, 'They sold it to Sam and myself.' Some people seem to have an internal shiver over saying 'me'.
6
As a so -called Brit I find that Americans fall over backwards to be polite or welcoming. Every time I hear a sales clerk say "You're very welcome" or "have a nice day" I cringe. Worst still, "No problem" to which with my sarky English sense of humor I'm tempted to respond with "I hope not.
Re the possessive pronoun: public speakers often preface their remarks with an obsequious "On behalf of so-so and myself" - yuck!
Question: Why is it that supposedly well-educated Americans tell you to "lay" rather than "lie" down (using the past instead of the present tense)? I sometimes think it's because they are afraid of being accused of lying - being deceitful.
My biggest peeve of all, however, is the misuse of the adjective unique by trying to modify it by inserting very or extremely. They don't seem to know that unique means ""one of a kind."
I better shut up or stop venting before I burst!
Have a nice day!
Re the possessive pronoun: public speakers often preface their remarks with an obsequious "On behalf of so-so and myself" - yuck!
Question: Why is it that supposedly well-educated Americans tell you to "lay" rather than "lie" down (using the past instead of the present tense)? I sometimes think it's because they are afraid of being accused of lying - being deceitful.
My biggest peeve of all, however, is the misuse of the adjective unique by trying to modify it by inserting very or extremely. They don't seem to know that unique means ""one of a kind."
I better shut up or stop venting before I burst!
Have a nice day!
2
It's too easy to get me started on this. I still haven't gotten over my experience being a phone guest on Lisa Simeone's pet grammar peeves in 2002, when "Conan the Grammarian" Richard Lederer said that "begging the question" meant "assuming the assumption" when it's actually assuming the conclusion. When I tried to correct him, Lisa told me no one really cares.
But for now, I vote for eliminating "whom" from English. It rarely clarifies and appears to be misused most of the time, which is by people who have no apparent motive than sounding educated. The New York Times's very own Thomas L. Friedman has gotten it wrong the last two times I've seen him use it. Where's the editor?
But for now, I vote for eliminating "whom" from English. It rarely clarifies and appears to be misused most of the time, which is by people who have no apparent motive than sounding educated. The New York Times's very own Thomas L. Friedman has gotten it wrong the last two times I've seen him use it. Where's the editor?
6
Roger Cohen, I'm surprised to hear you say that the improper use of the reflexive pronoun hasn't crossed the Atlantic. I read it and hear it all the time from educated people. It drives me crazy.
However, what's been bothering me more lately is the misspelling of "than." More and more, I read sentences (including from a number of Times commenters) in which what should be "than" is spelled as "that." (E.g., the USA is bigger "that" Mexico.)
I don't know where this comes from, but it shows an ignorance of grammar - - not knowing the difference between the comparative "than" and the relative pronoun "that."
However, what's been bothering me more lately is the misspelling of "than." More and more, I read sentences (including from a number of Times commenters) in which what should be "than" is spelled as "that." (E.g., the USA is bigger "that" Mexico.)
I don't know where this comes from, but it shows an ignorance of grammar - - not knowing the difference between the comparative "than" and the relative pronoun "that."
4
I must confess to making the [than:that] error purely as a typo on a few occasions, and to my deepest chagrin; sometimes you don't catch it before you commit. If myself can do it other people must be capable of it too, so I prefer to regard it that way to assuage my own guilt. :) No prob'.
1
Dear Pam Shira Fleetman,
The one that is like my computer when it cannot complete a task and the little blue circle keeps going around and around and around is the use of "then" rather than "than".
I know sometimes it is a typo, but when you see the usage twice in one posted comment you realize that someone has confused the comparative with a temporal rational alternative. "I'd rather Mrs. Clinton be elected then Mr. Trump."
So confusing.
Does the writer mean they would rather Mrs. Clinton be elected but then afterwards Mr. Trump be elected. Which then engenders another question, when exactly do they want Mr. Trump to be elected since Mrs. Clinton is to be elected first.
It is like wiping your nose on a wagon wheel, there is no end to it.
It is like when your computer
The one that is like my computer when it cannot complete a task and the little blue circle keeps going around and around and around is the use of "then" rather than "than".
I know sometimes it is a typo, but when you see the usage twice in one posted comment you realize that someone has confused the comparative with a temporal rational alternative. "I'd rather Mrs. Clinton be elected then Mr. Trump."
So confusing.
Does the writer mean they would rather Mrs. Clinton be elected but then afterwards Mr. Trump be elected. Which then engenders another question, when exactly do they want Mr. Trump to be elected since Mrs. Clinton is to be elected first.
It is like wiping your nose on a wagon wheel, there is no end to it.
It is like when your computer
1
You forgot misuse of prepositions - arrive TO America, instead of in; associated TO something, instead of with. And many professionals from various countries don't know the difference between "on the contrary" and "in contrast;" or "besides" and "in addition."
2
Come now, it works both ways. Each and every time I hear an American say "thusly" without irony, I recoil with a measure of disgust equal to that which our own reflexive pronoun issue inspires within me. Or "horticulturalist", augh! Honestly, we should build a wall.
2
Speaking of creeping nonsensicalisms by customer service people, how about the ubiquitous use of "perfect"?
OK, your name?...Perfect!
And your email address?...Perfect!
What's so perfect about my birthday? Or had they already spied on me and were testing my memory or my honesty?
OK, your name?...Perfect!
And your email address?...Perfect!
What's so perfect about my birthday? Or had they already spied on me and were testing my memory or my honesty?
6
When I hear the birthday perfect response I usually tell them it wasn't my choice.
2
Can i help who's next?
7
Mr. Cohen,
I'm sorry that you're having a bad day, or are you a chronic grump?
As for the various incivilities you enumerate, it's just part of the global movement to make Technology the master of our civilization and we lowly homo sapiens its servant. I hope you are feeling better now, but you need not thank me. It's No Problem.
I'm sorry that you're having a bad day, or are you a chronic grump?
As for the various incivilities you enumerate, it's just part of the global movement to make Technology the master of our civilization and we lowly homo sapiens its servant. I hope you are feeling better now, but you need not thank me. It's No Problem.
1
forgettaboutit
4
I think this started because people didn't quite know when to use "I" vs "me" or "him" vs "he" so "myself" or "himself" was a safe fudge. Then it got used in the second person too.
In the US they have started using "I" instead of "me" as in "They did it to you and I".
In the US they have started using "I" instead of "me" as in "They did it to you and I".
7
To VR: Thank you. I was just about to write this very comment, but not wanting to be redundant, I decided to scroll through to see if someone else had done so. This "between you and I" construction is common among many of my highly educated, not-so-young friends, including school teachers, and it appears even in the speech of news reporters on NPR (horrors!!).
3
Oh please, Roger, nobody is using the English language properly any more, least of all New Yorkers who destroyed the English language long ago.
U.S. newscasters still refer to "the top of the hour" instead of "on the hour", or at the bottom of the hour" instead of "on the half hour" or even "at half past". I could continue ad aeternam.
And you didn't mention any U.S. boring colloquialisms like "the whole nine yards" that many foreigners don't understand and that could easily be replaced by "that's the whole story" or "that's all there is to it".
So I suggest you examine yourself and find your inner self, for yourself.
U.S. newscasters still refer to "the top of the hour" instead of "on the hour", or at the bottom of the hour" instead of "on the half hour" or even "at half past". I could continue ad aeternam.
And you didn't mention any U.S. boring colloquialisms like "the whole nine yards" that many foreigners don't understand and that could easily be replaced by "that's the whole story" or "that's all there is to it".
So I suggest you examine yourself and find your inner self, for yourself.
3
Roger, do you not have something better to do? If not, try a similar analysis of American's use of the verb's "to go" and"to get."
4
Oops! Don't insert an apostrophe when using the plural form; in most cases add an "s."
Plural possessive: Americans' (apostrophe after S).
I laughed all the way from headline to the last word.
I hope it does not cross the Atlantic Ocean. It would add unbearable stress to an already unbearably stressful year for myself. ;-)
I hope it does not cross the Atlantic Ocean. It would add unbearable stress to an already unbearably stressful year for myself. ;-)
2
This is Mr. Cohen's best piece in a while. I have definitely noticed this reflexive pronoun epidemic in the UK. It's especially bad among(st) airline cabin crew.
Hashtagmindblown
Hashtagmindblown
1
To myself, Mr. Cohen bespeaks verity.
2
I guess this inward looking speech may have subliminally contributed to the brits deciding to rule for themselves and so to withdraw from brusselves.
1
America's new ordeal? The conflict of singular and plural, as in
"A fit person should stand up and offer their seat to an elderly passenger."
Oy. Really, really oy.
"A fit person should stand up and offer their seat to an elderly passenger."
Oy. Really, really oy.
5
This may be an effort to de-gender pronouns.
Roger, if you should visit India, extremely polite English-speaking citizens will enquire about the needs of "your good self." Such is the legacy of the Empah.
2
Actually, I have heard "yourself" used rather frequently in NYC.
It usually involves an emphatic suggestion that the addressee perform an act which is not anatomically feasible.
It usually involves an emphatic suggestion that the addressee perform an act which is not anatomically feasible.
3
You left out "moving parts."
1
What I dislike most isn't on this list. It's
no problem
What ever happened to:
of course
certainly
my pleasure
No problem - no problema - implies that I or the situation I was in was causing or is causing a problem. Thanks a lot.
May I please have another glass of wine? No problem.
Would it be possible to check my coat here? No problem.
I would prefer a room facing south. No problem.
This flips me out so much I have to cool my jets until I can chill. Ya know?
no problem
What ever happened to:
of course
certainly
my pleasure
No problem - no problema - implies that I or the situation I was in was causing or is causing a problem. Thanks a lot.
May I please have another glass of wine? No problem.
Would it be possible to check my coat here? No problem.
I would prefer a room facing south. No problem.
This flips me out so much I have to cool my jets until I can chill. Ya know?
3
That was just plain fun. Thank your, Mr. Cohen, or should it be yourself?
I'm convinced that Joe Biden referred pointedly to "Barack and ME" throughout his DNC speech the other day as a passive-aggressive response to the ever-present "to x and I" hypercorrection.
Mr. Cohen's observations and opinions are already a part of my experience here in the U.S. going back more than 30 years. It started with people saying "myself" instead of "me" as in "If you need more information, please don't hesitate to call Joe or myself."
These imbecilic locutions spread so rapidly in the past 100 years not because of radio and television, but because the geniuses "upstairs" hire people who learned English from sportscasters, who learned it from most athletes, who learned it from a bloviator who tried to make what he said sound more important and "upper class" by adding syllabi willy-nilly to every word they spew.
A particular offender in my world was the use of inappropriate suffixes to nouns to make them into verbs. use of the suffix "ize" on nouns as in "How can we incentivize Karen to work harder?" "Incentivize" means "to make an incentive of" as in civilize, optimize and economize . Using these as examples, "incentivize Karen" means to use Karen as an incentive for someone else. Whatever happened to "motivate"?
I believe in languages changing over time for the better:
When neologisms add meaning to make a sentence informative and colorful, not when it shows ignorance.
When language is simplified such as using "more" instead of the more difficult to learn "-er".
I could go on for years (and have) decrying the decay of our language by ignorance and stupidity.
These imbecilic locutions spread so rapidly in the past 100 years not because of radio and television, but because the geniuses "upstairs" hire people who learned English from sportscasters, who learned it from most athletes, who learned it from a bloviator who tried to make what he said sound more important and "upper class" by adding syllabi willy-nilly to every word they spew.
A particular offender in my world was the use of inappropriate suffixes to nouns to make them into verbs. use of the suffix "ize" on nouns as in "How can we incentivize Karen to work harder?" "Incentivize" means "to make an incentive of" as in civilize, optimize and economize . Using these as examples, "incentivize Karen" means to use Karen as an incentive for someone else. Whatever happened to "motivate"?
I believe in languages changing over time for the better:
When neologisms add meaning to make a sentence informative and colorful, not when it shows ignorance.
When language is simplified such as using "more" instead of the more difficult to learn "-er".
I could go on for years (and have) decrying the decay of our language by ignorance and stupidity.
Adding "syllabi" to words?
We have something like the opposite vice this side of the pond. You could call it the therapeutic anti-reflexive. I remember, from a self-help group I attended in the 70s, one of the gurus saying things like:"When are you going to do something for you, Virginia?" Apparently, it hasn't gone completely out of fashion. Take this from today's Times:"What has stopped you from getting in touch with you?" asked Robin Quivers, Mr Stern's long-time co-host.
1
Lovely rant. On a go forward basis (much better than "from now on"), the phrase "on the ground" should be banned.It used to be said that someone was, e.g., "in" a certain place. Now that person is "on the ground", as in, "Joe Correspondent, on the ground in Baghdad."
1
While you're at it, maybe you might correct the spelling of "it's" and "it's" in "Its such an irritant in it’s way — perhaps also to yourselve’s?!?! "It's" is "it is"; "its" is the possessive, as in "the dog chased its tail."
Cheers.
Cheers.
1
as wsc 'himself' wrote, perhaps not a pro po po, kind of errant nonsense not to be put up with.
and don't forget the 'ness'ness. as in seriousness, dangerousness.
now perhaps slefnessness.
and don't forget the 'ness'ness. as in seriousness, dangerousness.
now perhaps slefnessness.
As an SAT and ACT tutor of over 20 years' experience, I am very alert to the evolution of grammar errors in common speech. The misused reflexive pronoun has become the norm in the past five years or so, in my experience. And it's not just the kids: At jury duty a few years ago, I had the painful experience of hearing both the judge and the defense attorney address potential jurors with expressions like "the judge and myself believe…" I find that people use "myself" to indicate seriousness of purpose or to somehow elevate the level of the formality in their utterance. Unfortunately, the effect is at odds with their intentions.
Karen Berlin Ishii ~karenberlinishii.com
Karen Berlin Ishii ~karenberlinishii.com
2
Ever notice how some of the most vacuous-sounding expressions are used to close down discussion? 'Boys will be boys!', 'It is what it is'. Taken out of context, such phrases are tautologies. In use, however, they signal that the speaker has no intention to progréss (another Aussie-ism?) the discussion any further, and so cannot be said to be without (pragmatic) meaning. It’s as if the speaker is deliberately refusing to make the next point, stalling, marking time, in the hope that the back-n-forth will come to a complete halt.
You don’t agree?
…
Whatever!
You don’t agree?
…
Whatever!
1
This is a different side of Roger Cohen. I laughed throughout this column, and agreed with all of it!!! And I'm speaking for all three of us - me, myself, and I.
6
We do have a dynamic language, ain't we. Irregardless (I have a friend that delights in using that nonword), alas and alak, don't matter what you say. So, like, I was, uh, uh, at the TheeAter and fell down. The Ambul lance took me to the Hospiddle. They Acksed me if I had Inshurnce. I uh, uh, replied, 'no problemo'. Just hope the Po leese, like, ain't fixin to do a big deal on it.
I especially get annoyed with 'professional' news people who use 'bridge' words or crutches like 'uh' or 'like'. Chris Hedges of MSNBC, while very smart, drives me crazy with his 'stutter speak'. Actually seems like an affectation. Then, there are the guests who use 'uh' every other word. Maybe that would be tolerable if it was a one off, but to have them back day after day, is what's the word......
I especially get annoyed with 'professional' news people who use 'bridge' words or crutches like 'uh' or 'like'. Chris Hedges of MSNBC, while very smart, drives me crazy with his 'stutter speak'. Actually seems like an affectation. Then, there are the guests who use 'uh' every other word. Maybe that would be tolerable if it was a one off, but to have them back day after day, is what's the word......
2
With apoligies to Chris Hayes. Enen I can have brain farts.
Britain has never had a revolution but treachery dominates its past history,...divided by class driven by middle class and private school educators.
England be having an Enlightenment instead of it having a revolution . The Methodist Church and Chartists be sapping the zeal of workers including myself.
What about its future history?
1
Well, yes, I should say that the reflexive pronoun epidemic is certainly irritating, but you know, it's an ocean away, or at least it used to be until the Guardian invaded our shores. So be unnerved by it if you choose. But for me, I sense a homegrown problem that I find much more irritating, and it is much more subtle. It involves the verb "to inform" that seems to have evolved into a method of saying something without actually meaning anything. I wouldn't mention this except to congratulate you on not using it in this column because it seems to pop up now in every column written for the New York Times.
It goes something like this (purely fictional case): Andy Warhol's politics informs his art. It seems innocuous enough on the surface, and one might excuse a instance or two of its use, but here it comes again and again in column after column, only once, never twice, meaning to mean exactly something just to the far side of nothing. The really irritating thing is that it reminds me of my college days when I was taking abstract algebra until I found out that I really couldn't learn it and had to drop the class after the midterm. I was actually pretty good at math, as my stay at Stanford verifies, but it seems to me that it should always involve an equal sign, and I hated greater-than and less-than, ><, symbols, and this "informs" thing seems to fall in that category. Enough said.
It goes something like this (purely fictional case): Andy Warhol's politics informs his art. It seems innocuous enough on the surface, and one might excuse a instance or two of its use, but here it comes again and again in column after column, only once, never twice, meaning to mean exactly something just to the far side of nothing. The really irritating thing is that it reminds me of my college days when I was taking abstract algebra until I found out that I really couldn't learn it and had to drop the class after the midterm. I was actually pretty good at math, as my stay at Stanford verifies, but it seems to me that it should always involve an equal sign, and I hated greater-than and less-than, ><, symbols, and this "informs" thing seems to fall in that category. Enough said.
2
David,
I object to this usage as well. "Andy Warhol's politics informs his art."
Does it mean his politics is explaining something to his art? That seems rather unlikely. At least I have never heard and idea provide and explanation to an inanimate object. Even if the unlikely event of such an occurrence, I doubt the inanimate object would care or understand. Irrationality is like infinity.
I object to this usage as well. "Andy Warhol's politics informs his art."
Does it mean his politics is explaining something to his art? That seems rather unlikely. At least I have never heard and idea provide and explanation to an inanimate object. Even if the unlikely event of such an occurrence, I doubt the inanimate object would care or understand. Irrationality is like infinity.
1
Not new.
New Orleans: I'm going to get myself a sandwich.
Rest of South: I'm going to get me a sandwich.
All you need: I'm going to get a sandwich.
New Orleans: I'm going to get myself a sandwich.
Rest of South: I'm going to get me a sandwich.
All you need: I'm going to get a sandwich.
2
Mr. Cohen is spot-on.
President Obama, he.... She graduated high school. I could go on but it sets my teeth on edge....
Amusing article but I have never heard anyone in the UK using 'yourself' instead of 'you'.
2
Howabout "like" and "optics". They create maximum irritation for me.
Howabout silence instead of like and appearance instead of optics. Optics is the study of light.
Howabout silence instead of like and appearance instead of optics. Optics is the study of light.
I'm with you, Roger!
It definitely has crossed the Atlantic, if it didn't actually start in North America. I first noticed it years ago in restaurants. Turning from a guest who has just finished ordering to the next, the waiter asks, "And for yourself?"
Another tic that ticks me off - very common in the Chicago area: "I'm just going to go ahead and..." -- especially common in on-line demos and training sessions.
Another tic that ticks me off - very common in the Chicago area: "I'm just going to go ahead and..." -- especially common in on-line demos and training sessions.
2
Several years ago, everyone started speaking in the future "tense" about present tense claims: "That will be two dollars and fifty three cents." (Please tell me when that happens, and at that time I will pay.). "The beans will be in aisle 7." (Please tell me when that happens and I will go there then.) This can all be traced to a recording on the commuter trains into Chicago which had a recording that said "The next stop will be Glenview." Actually, when we get to (Glenview, the next stop will be Des Plaines. Glenview is the next stop right now.)
1
I was in a bad mood. This column put me in a good mood. Thank you!
1
One more point on exclamation points. The handy guide I've long used for appropriate intensity of punctuation (forgive the slightly dated second example):
Look, it's Joe.
Look, it's Madonna!
Look, it's Elvis!!
Look, it's Jesus!!!
Anything over 3 exclamation points, the only justification is that your key is stuck.
Look, it's Joe.
Look, it's Madonna!
Look, it's Elvis!!
Look, it's Jesus!!!
Anything over 3 exclamation points, the only justification is that your key is stuck.
3
"Thank you SO much" (although "thank you" used to suffice). "You have a nice rest of your day." . . . for yourself, of course.
Thank you for highlighting. I thought I was alone with this pet peeve.
My dear Mr Cohen,
I'm always grateful to find you somewhere in here to verify that I still have reason to trust my sanity when it comes to the English language. I count on you! But you left out one oddball bit of usage that I find hard to understand, which is why almost no one in the U.S. who is often or regularly published seems to be aware of the name of this (where I am right now) country. I do think there are two options, not just one: the U.S. or The United States.
I'm always grateful to find you somewhere in here to verify that I still have reason to trust my sanity when it comes to the English language. I count on you! But you left out one oddball bit of usage that I find hard to understand, which is why almost no one in the U.S. who is often or regularly published seems to be aware of the name of this (where I am right now) country. I do think there are two options, not just one: the U.S. or The United States.
Are they still declaring nearly everything "brilliant!" over there?
2
"Following guest" in stores - ugh. What's wrong with the perfectly succinct, efficient, non-judgmental "next!"??? I suspect this was drummed in California.
1
Furthermore, when did customers become guests?
you forgot one "pop": the decorators all use it to describe colors that stick out in oneself's house, as in "the red pillow really pops."
How about a riff on the latest odd locution here in the US: "The thing/point is is..."? This is growing in its usage, and it isn't just when the speaker pauses after the first 'is' when one could think maybe the speaker had forgotten where he/she was. No, the whole thing gets run on, and the people who use this locution clearly have no idea that they are using two verbs.
I bet they don't have that one in ole blighty yet!
How about a riff on the latest odd locution here in the US: "The thing/point is is..."? This is growing in its usage, and it isn't just when the speaker pauses after the first 'is' when one could think maybe the speaker had forgotten where he/she was. No, the whole thing gets run on, and the people who use this locution clearly have no idea that they are using two verbs.
I bet they don't have that one in ole blighty yet!
2
Languages evolve and most of us don't like it.
Two peeves - the use of 'off' instead of 'from'. "The company made $1M more in profits off their resale division than anticipated". This use is ubiquitous now and has even cropped up in NYT's headlines.
And 'like'. A valley girl verbal tick holdover from the 80's that makes the user sound completely ignorant.
Two peeves - the use of 'off' instead of 'from'. "The company made $1M more in profits off their resale division than anticipated". This use is ubiquitous now and has even cropped up in NYT's headlines.
And 'like'. A valley girl verbal tick holdover from the 80's that makes the user sound completely ignorant.
1
Another thing I'd like to know: when did we decide that the spelling of the contraction of "have" -- e.g., "would have" -- is the word "of."
I want to shriek every time I see "would of" where "would've" should be.
I want to shriek every time I see "would of" where "would've" should be.
1
I'm reminded of the Irish version when referring to the king of the house or job-- "himself:" "Go and ask himself." "Give it to himself." "Is himself home?"
1
I've been watching episodes of the British detective series "George Gently" this week, and I've noticed another pronoun quirk. When the characters mean "me," they often say "us." The show is set in Durham, so maybe it's a Geordie thing. Whatever the reason, I find it adorable.
2
The one verbal tic that makes me contemplate bidding adieu to this vale of tears, aside from "iconic" (I counted 17 uses of this abomination in one issue of NYT's "T" Magazine alone), and the loathsome "game-changer," is when every single person being interviewed by a reporter in print or audio seemingly is required by law to answer his or her own rhetorical question. Do I think this is more than an annoyance? I do. Do I wish for the elimination with extreme prejudice of the speakers thereof? No, simply enforced silence swill do. Please make them stop it. Now. Seriously. And while we're at it, that thing about adding emphasis by placing periods at. the. end. of. each. word. in. a. sentence.
2
Sometimes punctuation is used to guide the reader in spoken rendition of the text. When I read a sentence such as that it conveys additional information: the extreme annoyance or conviction of the speaker. It communicates.
1
When I lived in Mr. Cohen's native South Africa for a few years, I picked up some English Englishcisms, many of which I have subsequently notice creeping into American English -- "gone missing," for instance, is now common. You also hear, "at the weekend" on occasion. Both are quite useful. (You also hear a rising use of "Sorry" for "Excuse me," though not quite as many "Pleasure" instead of "Thank you.") One that has not arrived en masse, gratefully, is the redundant use of the word "time;" as in, "This will take place in three weeks time." Or "The match lasted for two hours time." I mean, it's not as if there could be some confusion with three weeks distance or two hours space. Never figured that one out.
1
My Goodness, you're funny! Didn't know that until just now. Keep it up. It was fun to read.
Actually depends where you live in England. People in Newcastle-upon-Tyne have different linguistic tendencies than those from the South East such as Essex. Even close neighbours often speak differently from one another, here in Staffordshire we sound nothing like those from the Black Country, e.g. Walsall, Wolverhampton etc or those from Birmingham.
Roger has taken it to the next level.
1
I had to sit in a doctor's waiting area this morning and be assaulted by endless redundant drivel uttered loudly with all the sanctimony of the 42,000th commandment on ESPN. Something I would never expose myself to voluntarily. Who needs bad English from across the pond. Sports announcers, many of whom are allegedly college graduates, are the destroyers of literacy and purveyors of bad English--at least until Twitter.
It's already here. When I'm on a conference call with my younger colleagues, it drives me crazy when they are afraid to use the word "me". "You can send that report to John and myself." It is most often "myself" rather than himself or herself or yourself.
I think people are uncertain as to when to use "me" or "I", and the other irritation is when they use "I" instead of me. Almost as bad as "myself".
I think people are uncertain as to when to use "me" or "I", and the other irritation is when they use "I" instead of me. Almost as bad as "myself".
3
Could be either incorrectly abbreviated use or overuse of "intensive" pronouns or an incorrect use of "reflexive" pronouns. They look the same and are spelled the same, but their grammatical function is different. The difference:
I saw him. That is neither reflexive nor intensive.
He saw me. Likewise, neither reflexive nor intensive.
I saw myself. That is reflexive.
He saw himself. Likewise, reflexive.
I myself saw him. That is intensive.
I saw him himself. Likewise, intensive.
He himself saw me. Likewise, intensive.
So, Roger, your example:
"Does that work for yourself?" -- Incorrect, as you say.
Correct:
Either, "Does that work for you?" -- neither reflexive nor intensive --and as you would prefer (and as I myself would normally prefer),
or, "Does that work for you yourself?"-- intensive -- not reflexive -- and cumbersome (and not what either your or I would normally prefer) but nonetheless correct.
So,
"Does that work for yourself?" -- either incorrect use of reflexive or Incorrect shortening of the intensive.
"Do you work for yourself"? -- Correct use of reflexive.
"Do you work yourself ragged?" -- Also correct use of reflexive.
"Do you yourself work"? --Correct use of intensive.
"Do you yourself work raggedly"? -- Also correct use of intensive.
I saw him. That is neither reflexive nor intensive.
He saw me. Likewise, neither reflexive nor intensive.
I saw myself. That is reflexive.
He saw himself. Likewise, reflexive.
I myself saw him. That is intensive.
I saw him himself. Likewise, intensive.
He himself saw me. Likewise, intensive.
So, Roger, your example:
"Does that work for yourself?" -- Incorrect, as you say.
Correct:
Either, "Does that work for you?" -- neither reflexive nor intensive --and as you would prefer (and as I myself would normally prefer),
or, "Does that work for you yourself?"-- intensive -- not reflexive -- and cumbersome (and not what either your or I would normally prefer) but nonetheless correct.
So,
"Does that work for yourself?" -- either incorrect use of reflexive or Incorrect shortening of the intensive.
"Do you work for yourself"? -- Correct use of reflexive.
"Do you work yourself ragged?" -- Also correct use of reflexive.
"Do you yourself work"? --Correct use of intensive.
"Do you yourself work raggedly"? -- Also correct use of intensive.
1
Personnel became Human Resources. Human Resources became Talent. Recruiting became Talent Acquisition. Does the Recruiter become a Talent Acquirer?
3
As Bryan Park pointed out earlier, the "myself" member of the reflexives has been rampant in America for a very long time, as in "You can notify either Bob or myself." I had doubts about this usage for a long time,, but nobody ever said anything about it, and even "educated" people used it all the time. Then I really thought about it, on my own, and it was immediately obvious that "Bob and ME" was not only clear, but correct. Another hoary old abuse is of the adverb "hopefully" for "we hope" or "it is hoped"; and lately I'm getting tired of "going forward" for "in the future" and "back in the day" for the somewhat distant past.
3
Do parents teach their kids now that the correct sequence is: Please, Thank you, No problem?
Many Americans use 'myself' when me would work fine.
From: http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/myself.html
Trying even harder to avoid the lowly “me,” many people will substitute “myself,” as in “the suspect uttered epithets at Officer O’Leary and myself.”
From: http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/myself.html
Trying even harder to avoid the lowly “me,” many people will substitute “myself,” as in “the suspect uttered epithets at Officer O’Leary and myself.”
Has yourself never been to Ireland?
1
The Old Lady's international edition has a comedian on its staff. It's domestic edition, not.
I suspect this developed from the old custom of referring to the Lord of the manor as "himself."
Mr. Cohen, you overlooked the most irritating overuse of any "pop" usage....as in, the color "pops", and it therefore makes the floor, ceiling, chair, curtains, pillow, even doormat "pop"...Now, like the annoying "open concept", it is even extended to the outdoors and gardens, i.e. the flowers are now "popping" with certain accent colors! Please stop with the "pop"!!!! Please so called decorators/designers/curb appealers, return the word to the old days of "don't pop your gum" and "pop" tunes. Please...
3
Yourself should have kept the house in France.
So, "It's all good" to begin every sentence with "so". So, "price point" is far superior to the measly "price". So, for sports enthusiasts, I'd much rather have a "fan base" than just some skimpy "fans". And no "stars" please - brawnier "superstars" only. So, the word "center" is officially obsolete, having been replaced by the hardier "epicenter". Do circles have "epicenters"? So, for the moment, I surrender to the misuse of "momentarily" although I'd prefer not to be on any plane that was going to be in the air "momentarily". So, although it is questionable to me, "I could care less" that the meaning of "problematic" is now solely governed by its root, "problem". Not a problem for me. So, maybe I'm biased but I no longer care if judges are disinterested or uninterested. It's up to them whether they infer or imply. So, not for nothing but it is what it is. So, thank you, Roger. William Safire would be so impressed. LOL.
5
Thank you! I have been reading all of these comments just to see if the irritating overuse and abuse of "so" would be mentioned. I hear this happening so frequently on NPR interviews that I can no longer be a faithful listener.
Trust me. The reflexive pronoun is alive and well in American corporate life. As an American working in London for a British company I see it both places on a regular basis. In the UK, Brits think that "you" and "me" is just too pedestrian. Yourself and myself just sounds more...posh.
Finally, finally! I see in print what a few of my British colleagues and I (myself) complain about nearly every day at work, both in the UK and the US. I will share this column broadly but I'm sure many of my workmates won't understand what the problem is.
Finally, finally! I see in print what a few of my British colleagues and I (myself) complain about nearly every day at work, both in the UK and the US. I will share this column broadly but I'm sure many of my workmates won't understand what the problem is.
Class is the bugbear of many British expatriate, myself included, which is why we left in the first place. May the whole wretched state of affairs within society, taken to such ridiculous extremes over there, wither as soon as possible. It’s not quite as bad, but almost as bad as racism, yet equally divisive. Snobbery, either way, is surely among the worst of human traits, at which my countrymen certainly excel. Good piece! Good riddance!
12
Right there with you mate. The whole snobbery, inverse-snobbery, and oneupmanship game played by the English in everyday conversation is a constant irritation to anyone not immersed in it from birth.
Brilliant! Ab Fab! lol!
4
brill and fab
1
How about this one: "Will the following guest step down?" or just "Following?" Argh it makes my skin crawl! And has taken over at all stores here it seems.
Someone, somewhere (probably the Gap) decided that shouting "Next" was rude. So instead of kindly saying "Will the next customer step down?" they now have to abolish use of the word next itself, as if that were the problem!
"Following" what? Can someone tell the service industry here how just plain wrong this is?
Someone, somewhere (probably the Gap) decided that shouting "Next" was rude. So instead of kindly saying "Will the next customer step down?" they now have to abolish use of the word next itself, as if that were the problem!
"Following" what? Can someone tell the service industry here how just plain wrong this is?
11
I've missed out on that epidemic so far, but humbly submit some endemic word rape that may or may not have originated here: "Dint" instead of "didn't". "Woont" instead of "wouldn't". "Premise" instead of "premises".
"I know, right?"
And this: When a young scientist is asked a question on TV or radio, such as, "And what did your findings reveal?" and they begin with, "So... we analyzed the data..." The first time I heard someone start such an answer with "So", I bit the cat. It was as if the interviewee was passive-aggressively trying to take control of the conversation by changing its direction, but then not changing its direction. Why?
And we mustn't leave out clickbait headlines, or parts thereof, such as "...what she did next will shock you/blow your mind/broke the internet. There's a new CBC celebrity news quiz show the network thinks will win over millennials called "Because News."
It is fun and therapeutic to mock the young, but I've noticed something in my field, advertising (which, when I entered it 20 years ago, was mainly populated by bright, well-read misfits who couldn't cope with the corporate world): That the 20-30 ad exec or creative can't think or speak in complete sentences, can't go three syllables without adding a "like" and calls everything he/she finds remotely agreeable "awesome".
And why are fully adult women talking with nasally high-pitched girly voices and finishing sentences with a fryyyyy, making them sound like they just woke up?
"I know, right?"
And this: When a young scientist is asked a question on TV or radio, such as, "And what did your findings reveal?" and they begin with, "So... we analyzed the data..." The first time I heard someone start such an answer with "So", I bit the cat. It was as if the interviewee was passive-aggressively trying to take control of the conversation by changing its direction, but then not changing its direction. Why?
And we mustn't leave out clickbait headlines, or parts thereof, such as "...what she did next will shock you/blow your mind/broke the internet. There's a new CBC celebrity news quiz show the network thinks will win over millennials called "Because News."
It is fun and therapeutic to mock the young, but I've noticed something in my field, advertising (which, when I entered it 20 years ago, was mainly populated by bright, well-read misfits who couldn't cope with the corporate world): That the 20-30 ad exec or creative can't think or speak in complete sentences, can't go three syllables without adding a "like" and calls everything he/she finds remotely agreeable "awesome".
And why are fully adult women talking with nasally high-pitched girly voices and finishing sentences with a fryyyyy, making them sound like they just woke up?
22
Right on. (Doesn't that sound better?) Anyway when I lived and worked in Japan from 1988 to 1992 i was seriously annoyed by the culture of girlie cutesiness. Come on, ladies, I thought, you have the bodies of women; why are you wearing Little Bo Peep ribbons in your hair, giggling and waving your hands with all kinds of five-year-old affectations? Woman up. I missed the womanliness of young American women. What's happened? Valley Girl Values?
1
Sorry, but I'm going to have to steal "I bit the cat."
1
Just two comments about change. I grew up in the 50's and don't remember young women having such "nasal" vocalization to their voices. Many of them today sound like they have a stuffed nose, and make up for it by speaking in a shrill voice. Whatever happened to the Lauren Bacalls of the world? And could people slow down a little? It sounds like many people are in a race to see how many words they can utter in a minute. But then perhaps it's my age, I'm listening with an aging mind that can't keep up. That must be it. Carry on.
25
I don't think it's just your age. Whenever I return to the US after a trip to Europe, I am struck, as if by a hammer, by the shrillness and harshness of American voices these days. It's particularly grating at higher pitches, so young women take more criticism, but young men are doing it too.
3
Spot on.
4
"No worries" makes much more sense than "you're welcome" when responding to a thank you.
Much easier to say as well, so saves time and effort.
An Australian
Much easier to say as well, so saves time and effort.
An Australian
3
Thank you for this, Mr. Cohen. Thank you. On behalf of English majors everywhere, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
69
I couldn't agree more at how bad these various "self's" have become. But America has been infected since the 1980s in the first person. Somehow saying plain old "me" became evocative, I suspect, of the 1970s "Me Generation." So saying "myself" somehow softens the request or statement. I'm waiting for "this here" and "that there" to come back into fashion.
3
Roger, it has crossed the Atlantic unfortunately. I am tired of being asked "Have we been to our restaurant before...?" Or worse, "Are we expecting to have dinner?" Who is this we? My ghostly shadow? Unbelievable!
3
Have you ever been asked by a Nurse, "How are we today?" I have, all too many times. In a courteous manner, I reply: "We? WE? ***WE?*** There is just one of me today. I left my multiple personalities at home." That usually gets the job done. I am tempted to say, "Where did your Nursing School go wrong?" , but courtesy dictates that I refrain. tempting though this retort is.
2
Many years ago, a comedian - I think it was Alan King, but not sure - told a joke about his time in a hospital (if you're English, just 'in hospital'; no indefinite article) and an insufferably chirpy nurse who asked him, 'and how are we feeling today?' 'The way I feel and the way you look, we're both in trouble,' he replied.
1
On that score, what about "he being American will not accept that" instead of "his being American..."? Or "me being American reject such..." instead of "my being American reject such"?
4
Hmm, it is not incorrect to say "he, being American, will not accept that," although I would include the commas. (Also, I would prefer "being American, he will not accept that.") "His being American" would be correct to say in a sentence such as "His being American makes no difference in this case." (= The fact that he is American)
2
I think this is correct: "He, being American, will not accept that."
If you want to use "being" as a gerund, with the possessive personal pronoun, then it would have to along the lines of: "His being American is not relevant to the discussion."
If you want to use "being" as a gerund, with the possessive personal pronoun, then it would have to along the lines of: "His being American is not relevant to the discussion."
1
I am really loving Cohen's sardonic take on what is happening to little, irrelevant England.
England out of E.U now reminds me of Taiwan's futile struggle with mighty China for a place in the global stage. The poor thing choked on nostalgia, and become food to egotistic demagogues like Boris Johnson!
They brought it on themselves!!! :)
England out of E.U now reminds me of Taiwan's futile struggle with mighty China for a place in the global stage. The poor thing choked on nostalgia, and become food to egotistic demagogues like Boris Johnson!
They brought it on themselves!!! :)
3
I am really not loving the use of "England" to mean the United Kingdom.
1
And haven't we become grabby? Restaurant servers ask me if they can grab me a drink, and--more menacingly--promoters urge me to grab a friend and come on down. . . . Must we make an ordeal of the simplest things?
6
I travel extensively to the UK; mostly up in the Manchester/Chester area. It's very quaint and the people are very friendly. I suppose I've gotten use to the different ways, terms, greetings, salutations, expressions, etc. which are used in England.
My favorite - when meeting someone, instead of saying 'Hello', or 'Hello, how are you?', the British say 'You okay?', it's said very quickly, so it almost sounds like one word...'Youkay?'
I really enjoy the accent and differences in speech - it's very colorful and distinct!
My favorite - when meeting someone, instead of saying 'Hello', or 'Hello, how are you?', the British say 'You okay?', it's said very quickly, so it almost sounds like one word...'Youkay?'
I really enjoy the accent and differences in speech - it's very colorful and distinct!
8
I would like to add a small New York City correction to Mr. Cohen's observation, we would never add the second person reflexive. It would be perfectly acceptable in New York to respond to "Drop Dead" with "Drop Dead Yourself". Although it would admittedly it would be before we had our coffee.
12
I'm sorry to tell you the reflexive pronoun epidemic has indeed crossed the Atlantic and taken up residence in the states And some time ago at that. At least a decade ago I had a pastor who regularly advised guests at service who might be interested in joining up to "Speak to one of the Elders or MYSELF." And she was not alone. I and another writer/editor in the congregation repeatedly asked each other, "What ever happened to ME?" And here in central Texas, I'm reasonably sure I hear "myself" much more often than "me" by speakers of all types. Pity.
6
The English reflexive thing has already crossed the Atlantic. I hear it in speech or see it in print daily.
The affectation I despise is the pronunciation of the indefinite article as the "a" in ABC rather than the neutral unstressed, mid-central vowel sound such as the "a" in ago.
It makes the speaker, however distinguished, sound like a first grader.
The affectation I despise is the pronunciation of the indefinite article as the "a" in ABC rather than the neutral unstressed, mid-central vowel sound such as the "a" in ago.
It makes the speaker, however distinguished, sound like a first grader.
5
I am surprised at yourself for not talking about the Democratic Convention itself in which I am totally engrossed myself. I don't understand your aggravation over the hyper reflexive pronouns themselves. You, yourself should take it as one of those English idiosyncrasies without any meaning by themselves. So Roger, get a grip on yourself. As for myself they are inconsequential by themselves especially when it has not crossed the Atlantic to America itself.
6
I just heard an answering machine message asking me to "leave a brief detailed message".
An English thing I knew would cross the ocean, and it has: Early on.
Eeuuww, I hate it.
An English thing I knew would cross the ocean, and it has: Early on.
Eeuuww, I hate it.
4
Hey, nobody's perfect. Back in Ireland we would never say “I have booked the flight for yourself.” etc.
We correctly say “I have booked the flight for your good self.” etc. The "good" gives a nice weight at the end of the sentence.
We correctly say “I have booked the flight for your good self.” etc. The "good" gives a nice weight at the end of the sentence.
15
This is not news. The English have been mangling the language (or defining it, if you wish) for the sake of social context for a long time. At least the third person oblique form of address has disappeared (would Sir like freshly ground pepper?) and the indefinite pronoun, so ubiquitous in French, is now confined to such a rarified stratum of society that the use of "one" as a substitute for "I" immediately identifies you as either a hopeless snob, or a Royal.
2
Interesting article. I am 52 and I'm still not sure how to write not to mention speak--I still fumble words, construct awkward sentences, etc. Speaking is of course a problem because people have own vocabulary, slang, accent etc.--you're never sure of making clean and effective communication, of fitting in with them, "playing cleanly" with them. It's a lot like music. And people just might dislike your style of communication just as people dislike certain types of music. I know blacks have a hard time with their speaking styles...
As for writing, it has always been a nightmare for me. I guess I decided partly logically and partly intuitively to just be as plain as possible, with simple sentence structure. This is not to say keep thoughts simple--no, I push for as complex thought as possible--but because everybody has own language and language and is changing this way and that I pretty much defaulted to plain speaking, like someone just printing letters by hand, not even using cursive, to get a point across.
I find it strange that many people seem to have no problem with the way they speak and write. I never feel I really know how to speak and write. It always sounds somehow wrong, not quite what I wanted to say. I can guess I'll probably continue writing as simply as possible while striving for complex yet clear thinking. I just hope I'm on the right course. Strange how so few talk about this problem of speaking and writing--and fundamentally of thinking.
As for writing, it has always been a nightmare for me. I guess I decided partly logically and partly intuitively to just be as plain as possible, with simple sentence structure. This is not to say keep thoughts simple--no, I push for as complex thought as possible--but because everybody has own language and language and is changing this way and that I pretty much defaulted to plain speaking, like someone just printing letters by hand, not even using cursive, to get a point across.
I find it strange that many people seem to have no problem with the way they speak and write. I never feel I really know how to speak and write. It always sounds somehow wrong, not quite what I wanted to say. I can guess I'll probably continue writing as simply as possible while striving for complex yet clear thinking. I just hope I'm on the right course. Strange how so few talk about this problem of speaking and writing--and fundamentally of thinking.
4
Its probably the influence of Irish speakers in England. Very natural to emulate the terms used by such a large group of assimilated immigrants.
And, it sounds nice.
And, it sounds nice.
3
Is this a reaction to 'my' in cyberland?
Mylists
Mywork
Myorders
Mymymy
Mylists
Mywork
Myorders
Mymymy
5
My one ask of you would be to keep pushing this issue forward. And don't forget to keep an eye on your monthly spend.
6
Monthly spend = burn rate.
2
This was an epic piece.
4
This column was absolutely "iconic," as is just about everything else these days.
5
"YOLO! Don’t get me started on that, either"
If Trump becomes president ONCE will have been a bridge too far!
If Trump becomes president ONCE will have been a bridge too far!
2
Wow, all that anger because you don't like "YOLO"?
I'd like to hear what linguists (experts in linguistics) have to say about the pronunciation of the simple indefinite article, first word in the dictionary, "a".
When I say it, or hear it spoken in person, it is always pronounced like "uh," or the a in "sofa." But on the radio, it is usually "ay" like the a in "grade." Has anyone else noticed this? Is it a regional accent thing?
To me it is a marker of insincerity, but maybe it is just a marker of formality.
I hope for replies.
When I say it, or hear it spoken in person, it is always pronounced like "uh," or the a in "sofa." But on the radio, it is usually "ay" like the a in "grade." Has anyone else noticed this? Is it a regional accent thing?
To me it is a marker of insincerity, but maybe it is just a marker of formality.
I hope for replies.
1
At least there is some form of relief for those "being defeated in the quest to speak to a human being by some devilish labyrinth of automated responses." It's a site called GetHuman (https://gethuman.com/). They have an app as well. I have made use of them many times to take the shortcut out of Automated Phone Tree Hell and connect to an actual human being.
Sometimes that means being on hold for a while, but if it's a choice between being on hold waiting for a person and trying to deal with an automated response system, I will gladly choose the former.
Sometimes that means being on hold for a while, but if it's a choice between being on hold waiting for a person and trying to deal with an automated response system, I will gladly choose the former.
1
As any Texan knows, the correct reflexive pronoun is “your ownself.” Legendary Sports Illustrated writer swriter Dan Jenkins, a Fort Worth native and author of “Semi-Tough” and “Dead Solid Perfect,” titled one of his novels “Life Its Ownself.”
4
At the end of the day, lived experience is better than non-lived experience.
4
At the end of the day, it's time for a drink.
6
Hey, get over yourself, would ya?
2
Two points. First, I hear far too many uses of "Myself" right here in the USA, particularly among those under 50 years of age. Second, I lived in England for 3 years in the 1970s and have returned frequently to visit friends and revel in the countryside of Dorset, Devon and Cornwall. In all that time, I have never heard this flood of reflexive pronouns. I believe you are encountering an unrepresentative sample.
2
What about the meme "yeah no"? Am I the only one it irks? I refuse to succumb!
3
Sweateth thou not. 'Tis evolution of language.
Try reading Shakespeare, and the King James translation of the Bible, then you too will cringe to read what passes for literature these days.
Try reading Shakespeare, and the King James translation of the Bible, then you too will cringe to read what passes for literature these days.
3
You and me Cohen, we's think alike.
2
"You and I".
Slightly off the subject, can we please stop using "high tea" to refer to "afternoon tea"? The former sounds more elegant, but in reality is not.
4
I think the rapid adoption of "no worries" in response to "thank you" by Americans stems from the belief that the phrase "no problem" is not "politically correct", as it suggests that whatever the non-worried person was being thanked for was -- in fact -- a problem. "No worries" conceptualy skirts that problem and its Aussie origin makes it seem friendlier somehow.
Why not just respond to a "thank you" with "you're welcome?" As I understand it, some people feel this conveys a future obligation of the "thanker" to the "thankee," which is how "no problem" came into usage.
Myself/yourself seems to come from that same place that makes it seemingly impossible for some people to use the word "me." "I made a reservation for lunch for my friend and I" apparently sounds a lot better than "my friend and me." The fact that the latter is perfectly correct doesn't seem to matter -- "I" is viewed as a more formal way of saying "me."
Or it could also come from the ironic use of "Himself" (always with an upper-case H) that my Irish Nana would employ when talking about authority figures she didn't like or pretty much any male member of our family. "What does Himself want to have for lunch today?"
Why not just respond to a "thank you" with "you're welcome?" As I understand it, some people feel this conveys a future obligation of the "thanker" to the "thankee," which is how "no problem" came into usage.
Myself/yourself seems to come from that same place that makes it seemingly impossible for some people to use the word "me." "I made a reservation for lunch for my friend and I" apparently sounds a lot better than "my friend and me." The fact that the latter is perfectly correct doesn't seem to matter -- "I" is viewed as a more formal way of saying "me."
Or it could also come from the ironic use of "Himself" (always with an upper-case H) that my Irish Nana would employ when talking about authority figures she didn't like or pretty much any male member of our family. "What does Himself want to have for lunch today?"
4
For myself, the phrase seen often in the comments section of the NYT
"...just sayin'..."
just about takes the guinea biscuit for myself.
"...just sayin'..."
just about takes the guinea biscuit for myself.
9
Thanks for.."Hey, just putting it out there..."
3
This column needs some serious unpacking. Full stop.
25
Why, oh why, did you have to encourage the language peevers? Give them a green light and every zombie grammar rule of the last century gets dragged out, admired, and harped upon. If I had a dollar for every time someone called the [they're/there/their] confusion a *grammatical* error, I'd, well, I wouldn't be rich but I could buy a nice dinner. Complain about spelling all you want, but people do know what they mean to say.
26
The person speaking may know what he or she means to say, but the person *listening* does not. That's the problem with grammatical errors. Confusing they're/there/their or its/it's causes genuine confusion in the reader. It takes a moment for the reader to figure out what the writer meant. Essentially, by ignoring the rules of grammar, you are shifting the burden of your own laziness onto someone else.
Any form of communication -- be it artificial or natural -- requires rules and protocol in order to work. English is no exception.
I'd also point out that where you place the apostrophe or how you spell these words is hardly a "zombie rule." They are entirely different words, and thus it's a matter of grammar, not spelling. You wouldn't consider any of the words there/their/"they are" or its/"it is" to be interchangeable in terms of their meaning, so why accept such blatant mistakes?
Any form of communication -- be it artificial or natural -- requires rules and protocol in order to work. English is no exception.
I'd also point out that where you place the apostrophe or how you spell these words is hardly a "zombie rule." They are entirely different words, and thus it's a matter of grammar, not spelling. You wouldn't consider any of the words there/their/"they are" or its/"it is" to be interchangeable in terms of their meaning, so why accept such blatant mistakes?
2
With a PhD on the psychology of language, years of teaching, and distressingly many more years as an attorney I can say to you without reservation that, no, people do not know what they mean to say, and the longer they go on, the less they know.
3
Yes they do but if they don't say it correctly, too often other people do not.
If London English gets him this upset, we wonder how he'd get on up in the north.
19
You betcha!
'Hey, Mr. Cohen, where you at now!'. Not long ago I passed this newest on to an American friend on mission in Juba and we had a good laugh. It started a brief email exchange on Rudyard Kipling and our English going down the pipes.
Now before you get excited, let me tell you that I am still trying to learn to speak my first language, and my boss, a prominent economist, had some sort of fit when I wrote the word 'connexion'. Nothing like the time, mind you, when I typed 'Regan' and Voodoo economics.
Years ago a British friend came to stay in New York with her husband and it was awful because he could tell that I didn't understand the marbles in his mouth. Two Americans just came to inspect the furnace, and they looked like actors out of 'Deliverance'. Their English was perfect and clear as a bell.
Is it true that David Cameron thought LOL at first meant 'Lots of Love'? What I know is true is that my sibling, an academic, and my mental senior. he and me, think you are a bit of the right thing. If you come to New York on a visit, he will translate Egyptian hieroglyphics for you at the Met.
'Myself', says a French-speaking Senegalese friend, and both of us enjoy debating the use of a semi:colon. Politesse? You should hear some of the French with: 'Veuillez accepter, Cher Monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les meilleurs', instead of Pip Pip Cheerio!
It is a pleasure to thank you for your latest essay. Stay cool.
Now before you get excited, let me tell you that I am still trying to learn to speak my first language, and my boss, a prominent economist, had some sort of fit when I wrote the word 'connexion'. Nothing like the time, mind you, when I typed 'Regan' and Voodoo economics.
Years ago a British friend came to stay in New York with her husband and it was awful because he could tell that I didn't understand the marbles in his mouth. Two Americans just came to inspect the furnace, and they looked like actors out of 'Deliverance'. Their English was perfect and clear as a bell.
Is it true that David Cameron thought LOL at first meant 'Lots of Love'? What I know is true is that my sibling, an academic, and my mental senior. he and me, think you are a bit of the right thing. If you come to New York on a visit, he will translate Egyptian hieroglyphics for you at the Met.
'Myself', says a French-speaking Senegalese friend, and both of us enjoy debating the use of a semi:colon. Politesse? You should hear some of the French with: 'Veuillez accepter, Cher Monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments les meilleurs', instead of Pip Pip Cheerio!
It is a pleasure to thank you for your latest essay. Stay cool.
1
What is really maddening is the constant use of "I" for "me" by practically everyone, including the lords and ladies portrayed on Masterpiece Theatre. I am a college professor, and I can't count the number of times I hear colleagues say things like, "send the memo to the dean and I". Thank you, Joe Biden, for using "me" correctly many times in his excellent speech last night!
13
Joe went to a decent prep school--Archmere Academy School for Boys. I was there my damnself.
12
One trans-Atlantic verbal tic has become so common here that we forget it was English: "at the end of the day." Not so long ago, Americans used to say "when all is said and done," which could actually happen without having to wait for dusk.
3
For me, myself, there's also that visual thing and that aural thing. It's awful having to endure, again and again, an educated or upper-class English bloke, in fine cut of suit, straining through a repellent set of misaligned, misshapen, and discolored teeth, how ex-TRAWdnery ex-TRAWdnery something is.
1
EXTENDING Pronouns is, in Britain these days, not a self-less act. I'm glad that things will pop up to add to the entertainment. Is there any promise of pop corn at the end of the ordeal? Here in the US if you say pop too much people will think you're mocking the distant gunshots you'll hear as we exercise or Constitutionally guaranteed right to slaughter each other in the streets. Pop that one in your toaster will ya? So how extensive is the outreach of those corporations that reached out? In the US, drill down means looking for oil or gas. Unpack means holding your breath to see if all parts are there to assemble your new Ikea purchase. Drill down--another term from oil exploration. Thought shower is so much more genteel than brainstorm. Reading of this, I am reminded about my wife's very proper mother's stories about how people reacted when she misused the term fannies and stuffed in Britain. She had now idea she was saying in the Queen's English. In the US, you see, fanny is a euphemism for buttocks and stuffed means having overeaten. What's in a word? A fanny by any other name would be so stuffed. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
But I do wish people would take it upon themselves to use the reflexive when appropriate.
4
I always thought that the use of "yourself" was an Irish rather than a British thing and, as such, there was a great deal of warmth in it's use.
Besides, I have been in the UK for a week now and no one has gone reflexive on me.
Besides, I have been in the UK for a week now and no one has gone reflexive on me.
2
Agree with all but the ice comment. Americans DO use way too much ice, which then gets thrown in the trash, still frozen. All the remaining ice, which is often a good half cupful, represents wasted energy (probably oil, coal, or nuclear) spent freezing that ice just to be thrown in the trash.
1
Perhaps you are correct about the waste of energy, but I still remember a stay in Edinburgh's stately King George. I asked Room Service to please send up some ice with our dinner. The response was, "Of course, sir, how many pieces shall I send?" There must be a middle way.
1
This is a charming and cleverly funny piece. The D word was not mentioned once.
3
It looks like himself is getting tetchy. Have a cuppa, mate. Innit? Innit!
36
Pretty granular column.
21
This isn't just a problem in England. This has been a pet peeve of mine for years, and the worst offenders are professional athletes. The interviews are nearly unwatchable... "As for myself... my team and myself..." Please make it end.
39
Well, at least they gave 110%.
2
Or this one - On behalf of myself. . .
This article was a hoot! I am not as much annoyed by the "me-myselfishness" of people's grammar as I am of their general "myselfishness." I do have British and Caribbean relatives and friends who say, "myself/meself and the missus." They're older and I think that's regional and a bit cute, when said with the appropriate accent. My real pet peeve is the word "LIKE!" I hear tumbling, cascading torrents of "likes" in almost every sentence uttered by the Millennials in my world....ARRGH! But I digress--a "thought shower?" What in the wide, wide world of sports is a "thought shower?" Where are the word police when you really need them! That gem is worthy of a "V-8" style bonk on the head and quarantine until the urge to use such ridiculous language has subsided!
10
"Yourself" used this way hasn't crossed the pond, but "myself" in place of "me" has been used on this side of the Atlantic for years, and it drives me crazy. E.g. "Thank you for your attention, if you have any questions, please ask Bill or myself." - the proper wording being "... please ask Bill or me."
18
Will "theirselves" be next? My brain gets all crispy thinking about it.
17
Especially if it is spelled "thierselves"...
3
I cannot bear to be called "you guys", since I am not a guy. How would you guys like to be known as "you gals"? Didn't think so.
17
Agreed. A waitress at a local restaurant knows our coffee group well. She always refers to us as "Folks", as in "Are you folks ready to order?". I did hear a response once that was priceless. A leader of a meeting asked the mixed group "Are you guys ready", to which one of the women answered "What about us" (women)? Dead silence. The leader never used that again.
1
I agree. The problem is a very simple deficiency in English: we don't have a plural second person. I really hate "y'all" (I'm from Connecticut, raised in Europe and all over); "you folks" (too folksy for me). When I'm speaking to a couple I often say "you two" which is better than "you guys" in that case, but not always.
2
Guys has two meanings: when by itself it can mean people in general (informal), and when contrasted with gals or dolls, it can mean male people. Many times words have both generic meanings and specific ones. You can tell which one is being used by the context. In fact, the language was pretty happy when that was the case for "he" and "men". Everyone knew that in some contexts these words referred to a people of both sexes and in other contexts people of one sex. It's a personal decision whether you want to find something bad in the fact that the same word used to refer to males can sometimes be used to refer to females as well. Generally, the male is given precedence. I suggest we stop worrying about it as soon as women stop preferring mates who are taller than they are. Not everything has to be symmetrical.
4
Roger, loved your reflexive excursion into the 'little irritants in life'. Have read your §12 at least a dozen times and break up each time. As they said in times of yore, 'You must have been reading my mail.'
2
Here is a common irritant in our contemporary language: How about when one says "Thank you" to someone, and the reply is not "You are welcome", instead you hear "No problem!". How about just saying "You are welcome". "No problem" IS a problem when I hear the American version of English.
19
In Spanish, the polite reply to 'gracias' is 'de nada'. In English, you can also say 'think nothing of it'. So 'no problem', or its Aussie equivalent 'no worries', which I confess to using freely, poses no problem for me.
1
I first heard the offending "no problem," in response to my polite "Thank-yous" when I was checking into a provincial hotel in England. Exasperated after the second or third iteration, I finally said, "Why should it be a problem?" The 20-something clerk looked at me as though I had arrived from Mars. When I got to London the next week I started hearing it again. It took about two more years before it finally made it to Oklahoma. Sometimes being behind the times is a good thing. Signed "herself."
1
Using "no problem" for "yes" or "Thank You" is a real annoyance to me.
But then as I tell others when I hear English used poorly, I am no longer in the
business of correcting the language of others with my red pen long ago retired.
But then as I tell others when I hear English used poorly, I am no longer in the
business of correcting the language of others with my red pen long ago retired.
1
Apparently an Americanism, "price point" is one phrase that annoys me. What's wrong with, "The price is [whatever]?" Rather than, "The price point for this item is [whatever]."
5
That might be technical retail jargon migrating into everyday use. When I was a shopkeeper, we used "price point" with our vendors when we bought our stock.
We all understood it to mean "the retail price we'd have to charge in order to make money on it VERSUS the retail price at which enough customers would be willing to buy it." A good price point meant not just that a lot of customers would buy and get good value, but also that we would not lose our shirts on it.
We all understood it to mean "the retail price we'd have to charge in order to make money on it VERSUS the retail price at which enough customers would be willing to buy it." A good price point meant not just that a lot of customers would buy and get good value, but also that we would not lose our shirts on it.
3
Agreed. "Price point" drives me nuts.
1
Then there's the tedious adjective/adverb du jour, "crazy".
1
Just chill. You're getting in a froth and need to cool down.
6
Roger,
This is not a matter of politeness. People do not understand grammar. The NYT's is almost as bad as the Times. I thank God for the School Sisters of Notre Dame. Look for the New Yorker cartoon, "You have no idea what it's like to be a 'just between you and me' person in a 'just between you and I' world." Actually, you do know.
Richard
This is not a matter of politeness. People do not understand grammar. The NYT's is almost as bad as the Times. I thank God for the School Sisters of Notre Dame. Look for the New Yorker cartoon, "You have no idea what it's like to be a 'just between you and me' person in a 'just between you and I' world." Actually, you do know.
Richard
48
People do not understand grammar, or spelling or punctuation, but they do usually intuit the need for some kind of rule and attempt to adduce it from observation, and in the process they get it wrong. For example, those misplaced apostrophes before a terminal S - the greengrocer's sign 'apple's $1.49/lb'. or the doorknocker engraved 'The Wilson's' - indicate someone who's internalized a pseudo-rule than any noun ending in an S needs an apostrophe. Similarly, many people don't understand the conditional and subjunctive moods - the 'was' vs 'were' distinction - and form a pseudo-rule that any clause beginning in 'if' requires 'were'. In editing, I now see much more frequent use of 'were' when 'was' is appropriate than vice versa.
2
Roger, where you write, "...whatever side of the Atlantic himself or herself happens to be situated on," you have made an obvious mistake. The pronouns are nominative not objective (even if the usage, itself (ha ha!), is objectionable). You should have written, "whatever side of the Atlantic heself or sheself happens to be situated on."
Yourself're welcome.
Do you think NYers will begin to say, "drop yourself dead"? It would so pour oil on the troubled waters of discourse.
Yourself're welcome.
Do you think NYers will begin to say, "drop yourself dead"? It would so pour oil on the troubled waters of discourse.
6
No, no! Both those versions still end with a preposition!
It's "... on whichever side of the Atlantic he or she happens to be situated."
It's "... on whichever side of the Atlantic he or she happens to be situated."
3
I laughed, but do agree that the Queen's English is disappearing down the rabbit-hole on both sides of the Atlantic.
10
The Queen's English disappeared on this side of the Atlantic in 1776.
Well, let's resurrect it.
Two hundred forty years later, I try to read, write & speak the Queen's English every day.
I save slang & dialect for the "proper context".
It's an art to discern which is which.
Two hundred forty years later, I try to read, write & speak the Queen's English every day.
I save slang & dialect for the "proper context".
It's an art to discern which is which.
1
Bernard Shaw, himself a master of the English language, did point out that Americans stopped using English, and Alan Jay Lerner adopted the line for Henry Higgins' plaintive song in 'My Fair Lady', 'Why Can't the English (Teach Their Children How to Speak?)'. So we all are treading well trammelled ground here. Here's Rex Harrison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAYUuspQ6BY
The song is doubly amusing because Higgins blithely commits an error of his own, a very common one in fact, in asserting that murderers of the English tongue should be 'taken out and hung' - a picture is hung, but a person or other living creature is executed by being *hanged*. The need to rhyme 'hung' and 'tongue' is insufficient justification, since later in the song, Higgins observes that 'every Frenchman learns his language from A to Zed;/The French don't care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly' (proper-led?).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAYUuspQ6BY
The song is doubly amusing because Higgins blithely commits an error of his own, a very common one in fact, in asserting that murderers of the English tongue should be 'taken out and hung' - a picture is hung, but a person or other living creature is executed by being *hanged*. The need to rhyme 'hung' and 'tongue' is insufficient justification, since later in the song, Higgins observes that 'every Frenchman learns his language from A to Zed;/The French don't care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly' (proper-led?).
Yes language evolves and lot of what we accept today was unacceptable in the past. But I think there's an important difference. Today's changes don't evolve naturally. They are foist on us by media relations companies (what used to be called advertising agencies), the media (what used to be called the press), professionals with a need to impress others and themselves with their own private languages, trade publications (restaurants being one of the greatest offenders), corporate "communications" (ha!) departments, and possibly worst of all "social media" (really, asocial media). And note that today, Marshall McLuhan would say the media is the message since that word has now become singular.
11
foisted
As a teacher of English as a second language, I must deal with the ever present "Me and my friends are going to the mall". Some years ago, people who should have known better thought it was trendy to say, "between you and I". At any rate, I very much enjoyed Mr. Cohen's column. I wonder if Lynne Truss is willing to take on the reflexives.
2
Mr. Cohen, you have raised an issue that has irked me for some time. As a teacher of English as a Second Language, I have noticed my international students using subject pronouns as objects, as in: "Mr. Brown gave a dollar to my brother and I." (Has anyone spotted the error?)
In trying to explain the problem, I ask them to shorten the sentence by leaving out "my brother", such that the sentence reads: "Mr. Brown gave a dollar to I." Immediately they recognize the error and change the I to me. But as soon as I reintroduce the second object - my brother - they fall back to saying "I".
When I ask them where they picked this up, they, of course, say that they're hearing it all the time. Which is another example of language in flux. People used to say, "I hear it all the time", but after MacDonald's came up with "I'm loving it", I guess it caught on. And I'm understanding why that is. The MacDonald's way of learning English is more fun and may even taste better.
In trying to explain the problem, I ask them to shorten the sentence by leaving out "my brother", such that the sentence reads: "Mr. Brown gave a dollar to I." Immediately they recognize the error and change the I to me. But as soon as I reintroduce the second object - my brother - they fall back to saying "I".
When I ask them where they picked this up, they, of course, say that they're hearing it all the time. Which is another example of language in flux. People used to say, "I hear it all the time", but after MacDonald's came up with "I'm loving it", I guess it caught on. And I'm understanding why that is. The MacDonald's way of learning English is more fun and may even taste better.
25
I also hear native speakers (!) use the object pronoun as a subject, e.g., 'me and my brother went'. Me went? Who are you, Baby Kal-El in a 1950s comic book?
5
Indeed! Extremely common with Americans, not just international students.
I'm sure it originated with the proper criticism of, say, "John and me went to the store" where the subject pronoun should be used. They then incorrectly extrapolated to any compound pronoun formation, even objective formations.
I'm sure it originated with the proper criticism of, say, "John and me went to the store" where the subject pronoun should be used. They then incorrectly extrapolated to any compound pronoun formation, even objective formations.
2
This sort of bothered me in the beginning (I have noticed this phenomena for years). But my Chinese mother pointed out why do Indo-European languages have so many different forms (and "cases") - she'd rather westerners just make up their minds and choose one word (like Chinese). Especially in a case-poor language like English. In fact, I am happy we don't have 3 or more different forms like other languages. No one laments the fact we only have "I" and "me" and not "Ich", "mich" and "mir" as in German! If this is just the beginning of the road towards the natural evolution towards eliminating "me", and further simplification of the English case system then it's alright by I!
1
Need more context, have never actually encountered it. Is this usage related to the ironically over-respectful or otherwise ironic Irish "yourself"? As in How's yourself, or Have you asked Herself? (ie, The Boss). Could it be dimwittedly referencing that usage but not getting that it's ironic?
8
The origin of the reflexive pronoun epidemic is Ireland, where the original greeting which conveyed enthusiasm and respect was: 'Tis Himself!'
We have Christmas ornaments with that emblazoned on it.
It is roughly equivalent to the Scots version of "THE" before the name of the clan leader.
We have Christmas ornaments with that emblazoned on it.
It is roughly equivalent to the Scots version of "THE" before the name of the clan leader.
16
As in "The Donald."
6
I dread hearing (usually) younger media people calling Hillary by her last name, pronouncing it "Clint-in." (Versus of course, "Clin-ton"). (GOP consultant Steve Schmidt, I'm looking at you).
I've been hearing (and jokingly imitating for humorous effect) words such as "mount-in" (as in Everest), "fount-in" and "curt-in" for years but usually from teenagers, and/or less educated people but now it has gone mainstream.
I don't mean to make such a big deal of this, but I'm hurt-in for cert-in.
I've been hearing (and jokingly imitating for humorous effect) words such as "mount-in" (as in Everest), "fount-in" and "curt-in" for years but usually from teenagers, and/or less educated people but now it has gone mainstream.
I don't mean to make such a big deal of this, but I'm hurt-in for cert-in.
25
I have always heard that ending pronounced "mount'n". Is there anywhere where people actually say "mount ayn"?
1
My pet peeve among young soap opera actors- enunciate! It's your job!
One of the easiest, and the best, ways of finding errors with other's language, pronunciation etc. is to learn it wrong yourself, and then it is fair game. Of course, you can blame or brag about your old age. And yes a language much like a river changes continuously. In about a decade if you went back to your origins you may feel stranger on your home turf.
Case in point, OED lists many derivatives of Clinton, and not one pronounced with "–on"
Clintonomics, n. pl. U.S. Pol. color.; (klɪntəˈnɔmɪks)
Clintonite, n. (and a.) U.S. Pol.; (ˈklɪntənaɪt)
And a well-respected academic pronunciation dictionary lists Clinton's pronunciation as [klɪntəˈn]. OED doesn't let names.
American Heritage Dictionary Fifth edition has the identical pronunciations.
Case in point, OED lists many derivatives of Clinton, and not one pronounced with "–on"
Clintonomics, n. pl. U.S. Pol. color.; (klɪntəˈnɔmɪks)
Clintonite, n. (and a.) U.S. Pol.; (ˈklɪntənaɪt)
And a well-respected academic pronunciation dictionary lists Clinton's pronunciation as [klɪntəˈn]. OED doesn't let names.
American Heritage Dictionary Fifth edition has the identical pronunciations.
I kept looking for "deeper dive". Well, perhaps, going forward, the next time you prioritize your options.
32
Brilliant, dear Roger. You really pushed the envelope this time!
43
Roger, you have assembled the whole ball of wax
1
And, the box of Pandora
The English language evolves. Some old people don't like change. Cohen finds another excuse to bash the Brits.
1
"Some old people don't like change"
How rude.
How rude.
4
Roger,
As a young man I attended the University of California at Davis. In YOLO county California.
One thing I did learn is that you only live once.
Next time you don't have anything to write about, and your employer expects something, tell them to let some young person guest write for you and go do something fun to re-charge your batteries. YOLO!
As a young man I attended the University of California at Davis. In YOLO county California.
One thing I did learn is that you only live once.
Next time you don't have anything to write about, and your employer expects something, tell them to let some young person guest write for you and go do something fun to re-charge your batteries. YOLO!
1
Dear Roger,
Are you living in London "yourself?", or by "yourself?". "Myself" I'm reaching out to you" "no worries", to try and "unpack" your conflicted and angry feelings about the babble of colloquialisms that prompted this writing.
May I suggest you "get your ducks in a row", "take action", " drill down"and buy yourself an airline ticket home to New York. Myself, this would be my "course of action", but you yourself must "take the helm" and decide. When you reach New York yourself will feel "awesome" as your told to "drop dead" and "take a hike", by "yourself"of course!
Meanwhile "feel free" to be "totally and irrevocably" irritated by the vernacular. "Does that work for yourself?"
Are you living in London "yourself?", or by "yourself?". "Myself" I'm reaching out to you" "no worries", to try and "unpack" your conflicted and angry feelings about the babble of colloquialisms that prompted this writing.
May I suggest you "get your ducks in a row", "take action", " drill down"and buy yourself an airline ticket home to New York. Myself, this would be my "course of action", but you yourself must "take the helm" and decide. When you reach New York yourself will feel "awesome" as your told to "drop dead" and "take a hike", by "yourself"of course!
Meanwhile "feel free" to be "totally and irrevocably" irritated by the vernacular. "Does that work for yourself?"
1
Whatever happened to "You're welcome" as a response to "Thank you." Now it is "No problem". Why should there be a problem in doing one's job?
2
The British import, "at the end of the day", used to note the final analysis of virtually anything from foreign policy to how to boil eggs, is becoming pretty tedious as well.
2
Reflexive pronouns are used when the subject of the sentence and the object of that sentence are the same; e.g.; I hurt myself. Not the case in Roger's column.
That was his point.
4
Roger, yourself (no, your good self) cause myself to reflect on ourselves's contemporary political condition. Myself thinks of himself, The Donald's presidential campaign and hisself's rhetorical standard of discourse. Itself is terrible, just brutal! So, so terrible!! Grammarians love himself!!!! That myself can tell you. Believe myself! Believe myself!!
www.endthemadnessnow.org
www.endthemadnessnow.org
7
Please allow me to take this opportunity to ask that editors at the Times enforce correct usage of whomever/whoever; as in, NOT "please vote for whomever is your favorite candidate."
16
And to all whom use whom incorrectly . . . STOP it.
3
Long ago I stopped using whom and am happier for it.
Your welcome!
Your welcome!
1
Thank you for mentioning this. I've noticed it also.
Also, I wish Times editors would enforce correct use of the subjunctive. In the Times, I see usages such as: "If he were an employee of XYZ Co., he received stock options."
The verb in the subordinate clause should be "was" because the clause is in the past tense, not in the subjunctive mood.
Also, I wish Times editors would enforce correct use of the subjunctive. In the Times, I see usages such as: "If he were an employee of XYZ Co., he received stock options."
The verb in the subordinate clause should be "was" because the clause is in the past tense, not in the subjunctive mood.
2
Funny affectation of the 'british class', as if we, across the Atlantic wouldn't be affected, 'you know', by our digital world full of abbreviations causing diminution of our understanding of, 'you know', the american language. I wonder, 'myself', what the English think about our 'subway', when the 'correct' way ought to be 'the tube'. Ought we not aim to express ourselves (here we go again) in as simple a sentence (but not any 'briefer' than that) as possible, to be understood properly. Affectation seems a privilege of the 'upper class' spilled over for us plebeyans to admire...but hopefully not copy 'impenitente'.
Oh, my heavens. I just realized that for years I've used "myself" and "yourself" as often as I might use 'you or me'. Have absolutely no idea why I do, and have never once given it any thought until reading this article. Born and bred in America by parents whose ancestors came here 400 yrs ago, so they were not just off the boat.
As for myself................................................
As for myself................................................
10
I think you are confusing the US with the UK. Every usage/phrase you mention here originated in the US as far as I know, beginning in the 1980s with the (incorrect) reflexive use of "myself" in a misguided attempt to sound intelligent/educated/formal. At that time, it was discussed by those bothered by it as you do here. Later its use morphed to the obsequious kind. All the others, like "unpacking," are straight off of US talk /news shows. I think they HAVE crossed the Atlantic - TO the UK. Remember, NY is a (special) exception.
6
Reminds me, "off of" is another one of my pet peeves...
1
Please add the overused word "iconic" to your list. thanks for writing this. I refuse to allow anyone to get away with "it is what it is". What a stupid, lazy opinion.
7
'It is what it is' actually has a valid subtext, in that it is shorthand for 'stop trying to impose your preconceptions, biases, wishful thinking, etc. on it and accept reality with all its shortcomings from your ideal'.
9
Are you self-pivoting?
19
Like, Awesome.
1
Yeah, me and my wife (pronounced me an) really liked this article ....to!
54
Add this to the tendency of many politicians and celebrities to refer to themselves in the third person, the term will be "himself" instead of "myself," the royal sounding "ourselves", or "yourself."
3
The Yanks have developed another verbal trend that I find terrifically annoying. You hear it from
"Reach Out" decision tree
Q: Is it acceptable for me to use the term "reach out" in the workplace?
A: Are you a member of The Four Tops?
- Yes: It's acceptable.
- No: Stop it immediately.
Q: Is it acceptable for me to use the term "reach out" in the workplace?
A: Are you a member of The Four Tops?
- Yes: It's acceptable.
- No: Stop it immediately.
65
Funny. Also acceptable; Friend and Lover
https://g.co/kgs/fA1l0P
https://g.co/kgs/fA1l0P
6
Does not "yourself" or "myself" stem from Victorian English or possibly from the then Irish speech?
1
Agreed. I understood this usage to be rural Irish, derived from Irish Gaelic. For example, the famous Sinn Fein could be literally translated as "We Ourselves."
1
Such forms as "himself" or "herself" are used in German and Russian with respect to a socially superior person.
This is the lexical reality (nightmare?) of working in modern business:
Wheels in motion
In the pipeline
Synergize
Engagement
Value-add
Value chain
Offline conversation
Quick chat
Quick win
Early win
Flesh out
Pare down
Manage expectations
Deliverables
Actionables
Key learnings
Lessons learned
Going forward
Core competencies
Leverage
Milestones
Next steps
Low-hanging fruit
Top brass
Ducks in a row
Drill down
Buy-in
Move the needle
Customer alignment
Brand reputation
Change agent
Getting push back
Champion
Key drivers
Touch base
Service wheel
Service offerings
Gaps and opportunities
Extra set of eyes
Bleeding edge
Paradigm shift
Reach out
Touch base
Knowledge base
Push the envelope
Circle the square
Thread the needle
Horizon scan
Front of mind
Boots on the ground
Pivot point
Pain point
Scope creep
...
Wheels in motion
In the pipeline
Synergize
Engagement
Value-add
Value chain
Offline conversation
Quick chat
Quick win
Early win
Flesh out
Pare down
Manage expectations
Deliverables
Actionables
Key learnings
Lessons learned
Going forward
Core competencies
Leverage
Milestones
Next steps
Low-hanging fruit
Top brass
Ducks in a row
Drill down
Buy-in
Move the needle
Customer alignment
Brand reputation
Change agent
Getting push back
Champion
Key drivers
Touch base
Service wheel
Service offerings
Gaps and opportunities
Extra set of eyes
Bleeding edge
Paradigm shift
Reach out
Touch base
Knowledge base
Push the envelope
Circle the square
Thread the needle
Horizon scan
Front of mind
Boots on the ground
Pivot point
Pain point
Scope creep
...
264
Mark B, you missed "value proposition"
Yourself is welcome.
Yourself is welcome.
6
You left out the up and coming annoyance of "unpack".
4
I hear people say, That's in his wheelhouse.
I don't know what it means. A railroad expression?
I don't know what it means. A railroad expression?
5
What makes us feel more catered to than to be given two syllables for the price of one? It makes oneself feel doubly unique, indeed!
4
I, myself, have no problem with this, if the context is right and the intent is clear. "My name is Justin, and I'll be your server today" drives me nuts. As to why the Irish use it, I can only guess, though I do know the Irish verbs are far more complex than in English, were the pronoun is imbeded at the end of each. Maybe there's a need to embellish to fit the rhythms of Irish.
2
Welcome to geezerhood, Roger, where, It's all going downhill.
My favorites (said scornfully):
"Waiter, may we have the check, please?"
"No problem."
"I didn't inquire if there was a problem. I asked for the !@#$ check."
"Waiter, may we have the check, please?"
"No problem. Was everything alright for you guys?"
"Guys." I haven't been a guy for many decades. My wife, as far as I know, has never been a guy.
It's as if the politeness of old, the "of course," the "sir" and "madam," have taken on unwelcome formality and class distinctions. We're all friends now, aren't we, me and yourselves?
Rubbish.
My favorites (said scornfully):
"Waiter, may we have the check, please?"
"No problem."
"I didn't inquire if there was a problem. I asked for the !@#$ check."
"Waiter, may we have the check, please?"
"No problem. Was everything alright for you guys?"
"Guys." I haven't been a guy for many decades. My wife, as far as I know, has never been a guy.
It's as if the politeness of old, the "of course," the "sir" and "madam," have taken on unwelcome formality and class distinctions. We're all friends now, aren't we, me and yourselves?
Rubbish.
13
Many years ago, when I was a grad student, I once referred to a group of very distinguished British biologists as 'Huxley and all those guys.'
My supervisor, English to the core, noted that 'I don't think that Professor Huxley would appreciate being referred to as a guy.'
I still use guy and guys - it's particularly useful in mixed company - but I rarely use it without thinking of Professor Huxley.
p.
My supervisor, English to the core, noted that 'I don't think that Professor Huxley would appreciate being referred to as a guy.'
I still use guy and guys - it's particularly useful in mixed company - but I rarely use it without thinking of Professor Huxley.
p.
1
I don't hear the reflexive "yourself" all that often in the UK -- but it's very common in Ireland, perhaps due in part to the Irish language's reflexive "fein" (as in Sinn Féin, "we ourselves"). And it is *not* ungrammatical -- I've taught grammar and the history of English at the college level for 25 years, and can point to examples in the OED from Swift, Trollope, and Austen; the usage goes back at least as far as the Wycliff Bible (c. 1390).
13
Thank you. You would think that if Cohen doesn’t know this, at least he would notice he's speaking with Irish people.
Cheers. This will be v. useful as I find myself popping over to England.
3
Going forward, I'm almost as annoyed by what linguists call hyper-correction (the incorrect use of reflexive pronouns; pronouncing "coupon" as "kyupon," etc.) as I am by modern clichés (going forward, on the ground, etc.). But what most riles me is the extremely sloppy errors in very simple written words: the apparent inability of average citizen to distinguish between "they're" "their" and "there," as in "they have there work cut out for them," or "looser" and "loser." Come on, less-educated people, sorry to sound snobbish, but aren't you ashamed that many people around the world for whom English is a second language have a much better command of English than you do? To wit, the foreign students at our better universities.
18
Perhaps it is an "unintended consequence" (ugh!), but correct pronoun case has taken a hike out of the language, probably as a result of overuse of reflexive pronouns. How many times do we hear "For you and I," instead of "For you and me"? Perhaps it sounds elite, classy, simply because it's new--but it's so obviously wrong. You would not say "For I," "About I," From I"--of course not. So why would "For me" change to "For I" when you add another pronoun to the phrase? Common sense about language, folks: just think it through. As for the Irish roots of the overused reflexive? "Sinn Fein" = We ourselves--a legitimate use of an intensive pronoun, "agus tusa?" which has no English equivalent, so the Irish person speaking English says, "And you yourself?" rather than "And hat about you--emphatic you, not to be mistaken for the last topic we spoke of--me?"
9
Unintended consequence is an important notion. If it is used to mean a consequence that was unforeseen and unintended, I don't see what the problem is.
"Yourself" may not make it to the US, but if I read or hear another person promising to "reach out," I'm going to reach out and strangle himself.
63
Please do likewise, Forrest, with the next person who offers to share something with you rather than tell you about it.
p.
p.
While we're at it, how about the use of "So" as the first word of a sentence? I've noticed that, on nine out of ten occasions, contestants on Jeopardy use the word when responding to a personal question (not an answer!) from Alex Trebeck.
15
Joel, they may just be nervous about being on TV . I've noticed many people add conjunctions when answering questions in front of an audience, just for extra time to think. It may not be how they normally speak.
At least "so" is a legitimate grammatical construction. The "coordinating conjunctions" that can start a complete sentence are: and, but, or, for, nor, so.
(Thank you, Mrs. Mercado! Many teachers skip this rule, because they just want students to avoid sentence fragments. "Never start with a conjunction" is simpler -- but wrong.)
At least "so" is a legitimate grammatical construction. The "coordinating conjunctions" that can start a complete sentence are: and, but, or, for, nor, so.
(Thank you, Mrs. Mercado! Many teachers skip this rule, because they just want students to avoid sentence fragments. "Never start with a conjunction" is simpler -- but wrong.)
1
Thank you, Joel, for mentioning this grating use of "so."
Customer: "Where are the restrooms?"
Waiter: "So you go down that hall, and they're on the right."
Would everyone please stop doing that, right now!
Customer: "Where are the restrooms?"
Waiter: "So you go down that hall, and they're on the right."
Would everyone please stop doing that, right now!
4
Yes, it is irritating. It's sort of nerdy. Like the person has just been waiting to resume giving his opinion on some technical topic.
3
I'm on "bespoked" when I'm on a bike.
17
Cohen is describing one of the unintended consequences of the "democratization" of English in today's England.There has always been a lower middle class the hallmark of which was an attempt at gentility as a way of distinguishing themselves from the Working Class.As he says,given how deeply embedded class is in the culture,one of today's ironies is that an attempt at a less class ridden society simply means that more and more people think it's "sophisticated" and"classy' to use such language,blissfully ignorant of the poor grammar it entails.When making the point that such pretension is unlikely to become part of the language in NYC,Roger omits to make the observation that many of the phrases he objects to in the UK have their origin on this side of the Atlantic.Worse still,the Brits now use Americanisms derived from sports(the whole nine yards,stepping up to the plate),with little understanding of their literal meaning.Having said that we lead the world in other forms of poor grammar,for example the inability to use the plural from correctly.Sentences like "there is a lot of issues"and there's a number of points to make"are ubiquitous in spoken language in the US today and no less irritating than what he observes in the UK.
7
Or "based on his data..." vs the correct "based on these data..." Very annoying but very common even among statistically-informed folks.
2
John, I agree that the only time 'Data' should be singular is when one is referring to a golden-skinned android on a certain sci-fi TV show.
3
One big problem is that English grammar is not universally taught in our schools any longer. So the untaught -- even those with graduate degrees -- may have no choice but to imitate, in their speaking and writing, what they hear and read all around them -- errors and affectations included. It's viral! If a foreign language is taught today, presumably it includes grammar. Why not English grammar as well? In fact, why not English grammar first? I find this not only a disappointment, but also a real irony in a country where so many other languages are spoken.
The demanding but sharp teacher who taught us to diagram sentences in the sixth grade is rolling in her grave.
The demanding but sharp teacher who taught us to diagram sentences in the sixth grade is rolling in her grave.
40
Suggest that students diagram sentences? Suggest that they learn grammar? BB, you are too cruel!
2
One big problem is that people are not willing to fund schools sufficiently any more (preferring to give all tax dollars to a ridiculously big military). In the old days (in my old day, at least), many students would have two English classes--language (in which grammar and writing were taught) and literature. They are entirely separate subjects. Nowadays, with limited money, schools just assign students to "English class"--one period in which writing (expository, narrative, creative, persuasive, all of it), grammar, spelling, and rhetoric are to be taught at the same time as literature (character, plot, theme, myth, archetype, etc.). It's all too much for one class, as any English teacher can tell you. Double the size of English departments in every school in the country so that we can serve students as they need to be served--especially with regard to mastery of their own language--and see the difference.
There'll be a lot more rolling in a lot more graves while, in the meantime, America gets what it pays for.
There'll be a lot more rolling in a lot more graves while, in the meantime, America gets what it pays for.
9
Supreme grammatical annoyance, indeed! Misuse of the reflexive pronoun "yourself" is rampant here in America, too. I hear it misused on a regular basis by individuals from all walks of life and educational backgrounds. As a son of a dearly departed English teacher, who knew her grammar and Latin, I grit my teeth when I hear such rubbish.
8
Even Churchill couldn't get the British civil servants to say "yes" instead of "the answer is in the affirmative." On our side of the Atlantic, "hurt" has given way to "negatively impacted.
5
It wouldn't be "drop dead" in New York and it would contain the
rubric Roger Cohen finds so objectionable as well as a word
the Times in its immutable 1950's journalistic sensibility will
not publish: "Go ---- yourself".
A crude slogan in plain English. Works for myself.
rubric Roger Cohen finds so objectionable as well as a word
the Times in its immutable 1950's journalistic sensibility will
not publish: "Go ---- yourself".
A crude slogan in plain English. Works for myself.
8
Now that's funny! Pretty much exactly what would happen in Calgary.
3
Lovely, fun article! I agree, Mr. Cohen, using "unpack" instead of "examine" -- nails on a chalkboard!
One that particularly jangles the nerves of myself is "cut on the lights." If one insists on cutting lights, one may only cut them off.
One that particularly jangles the nerves of myself is "cut on the lights." If one insists on cutting lights, one may only cut them off.
3
At the Battle of New Orleans, Andrew Jackson is reported to have ordered his troops to "elevate them guns a little lower."
4
As an often-cranky codger, I relate well to and agree with most everything Mr. Cohen has said.
While I am bothered by the specific language crimes he points out, I am truly tormented by the higher-level source of the problem: a country I once held in esteem for its esteem of education seems to have adopted what it once belittled as a uniquely American trait: anti-intellectualism. Brittania, where went your pride?
On another note, may I suggest that Mr. Cohen can remove two little irritants in his life by drinking his Coke in America and his wine in France. In all the years I've lived in France, I have yet to encounter a zealous sommelier let alone one who is overly so. I have, however, encountered plenty of waiters who clearly believe that drinking Coke (especially with cubes) is for rubes.
While I am bothered by the specific language crimes he points out, I am truly tormented by the higher-level source of the problem: a country I once held in esteem for its esteem of education seems to have adopted what it once belittled as a uniquely American trait: anti-intellectualism. Brittania, where went your pride?
On another note, may I suggest that Mr. Cohen can remove two little irritants in his life by drinking his Coke in America and his wine in France. In all the years I've lived in France, I have yet to encounter a zealous sommelier let alone one who is overly so. I have, however, encountered plenty of waiters who clearly believe that drinking Coke (especially with cubes) is for rubes.
7
I think you confuse Britain's esteem for education with its class system: It esteemed those of a sufficiently high class that they could afford a good education.
1
Speaking for me, myself and I, it"s all good.
7
I greatly appreciate this article, myself!
4
New languages spring up from corrupted old languages. That's history; that's evolution. But as with biological evolution, not all change is progressive.
16
Nor does one normally want a mutant child.
1
While annoying, these locutions are nonetheless not the most troublesome to both my wife and I.
86
And, of course, you meant to write "to both my wife and me" as the proper pronoun following the infinitive is in the objective case. But so many Americans think it proper---because it sounds so?--to use I instead of me.
Funny, funny column; and it's called slang! It permeates our language and makes us difficult (not hard) to understand to those who are not "in the loop."
My particular peeve is with putting a possessive modifier before a noun: for example, "...the Democrats’ cause." Why not "the cause of the Democrats?" Some of these clauses can be incredibly clunky, and I regret that I am unable to come up with a more germane example.
My particular peeve is with putting a possessive modifier before a noun: for example, "...the Democrats’ cause." Why not "the cause of the Democrats?" Some of these clauses can be incredibly clunky, and I regret that I am unable to come up with a more germane example.
Proper grammar has really suffered over past two decades. I regularly hear ostensibly educated adults misusing "I" and "me" in the context of sentence structure.
5
Please add to the list the overuse of the slang term 'you guys' at every turn. Impossible to listen to a newscast or any conversation without hearing these two words thrown about without 'reflection' at all on the part of the speaker.
9
For some time, I think, English speakers have been trying to create something sorely lacking: a second person plural pronoun. Yous, y'all, you guys, you'ns etc. (Yes, I know, but I didn't want to type all the parenthesis around the words.
I use "you guys" and occasionally "y'all" in circumstances where "you" might be ambiguous.
I use "you guys" and occasionally "y'all" in circumstances where "you" might be ambiguous.
1
Oops! "Quotation marks", not "parentheses".
1
It's not entirely their fault! English dropped the singular "thou/thee/thy" and drafted the plural "you/you/your" to serve for both. It's simpler, but leaves a frustrating gap where a real 2nd-person plural would normally be. So we invent forms to fill that hole -- for example, the smooth, gender-neutral "y'all" of my native Texas.
2
See the links below on the reflexive pronoun in Britain:
https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/pronouns/refl...
http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/11/some-reflections-on-reflexives/
http://www.grammar.cl/Notes/Reflexive_Pronouns.htm
Mr Cohen doth protest too much, methinks.
https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/pronouns/refl...
http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/11/some-reflections-on-reflexives/
http://www.grammar.cl/Notes/Reflexive_Pronouns.htm
Mr Cohen doth protest too much, methinks.
2
'I'm just not in a space right where I can deal with that' ...never ever heard anyone say that here in the UK...that phrase sounds very American to me.
2
And this American has never heard that phrase outside of California or New York City.
Good on ya Roger Cohen! You deserve to medal and to podium for this column.
4
What a great column in this 48-hours-per day political hysteria.
10
Hey this is pretty good. I personally prefer "no problemo" to "no worries", but found more California Bay Area people I worked with using "no worries" and that kind of converted me. Sounds like this side of the Atlantic works for yourself.
1
I myself have always understood that the reflexive pronoun can only be used when it refers back to the same person as the subject of the sentence.
You saw yourself in the mirror.- Correct
You saw myself in the mirror.- Incorrect
Of course, the reflexive pronoun must not be confused with the intensive adjective, as in the second word of my first sentence!
If you study Latin all of this is perfectly obvious.
You saw yourself in the mirror.- Correct
You saw myself in the mirror.- Incorrect
Of course, the reflexive pronoun must not be confused with the intensive adjective, as in the second word of my first sentence!
If you study Latin all of this is perfectly obvious.
14
For me, the gross overuse of the word "incredible(ly)" in this country is maddening. Repetition has robbed it of any meaning. I do hope it will go the way of "awesome" and other fads of usage.
3
Fair comment, between you and I
3
I was having a good morning until you set my teeth on edge with this.
30
while you're so busy nattering, castigate your American proofreader. Also let's get rid of that pernicious 'spot on" [which never is]:
"Its such an irritant in it’s way — " should be "It's such an irritant in its' way..."
"Its such an irritant in it’s way — " should be "It's such an irritant in its' way..."
4
Linh, were you being humorous? I hope you know that it should be "its way"--no apostrophe when "its" is used as a possessive pronoun.
4
Wow. What an ethnocentric rant. I didn't expect this from such a worldly columnist. I lived in Ireland for a year in the early nineties and worked with people who were the salt of the earth and about as far removed from the hospitality industry as one (you) could imagine. It was common parlance to use the words "yourself" instead of "you" and "himself" instead of "him." It would have been absurd and offensive for me to tell them they should be speaking differently and imply that, somehow, I, an American in their country, should be the arbiter of proper English. How embarrassing.
1
One phrase that has crossed the Atlantic -- and it drives me nuts every time I hear it -- is: "If you will." or "If you like." I guess the speaker thinks it makes her or him seem sophisticated or veddy British. I think it makes her or him a pompous phony.
And while I'm at it, how about the overuse of "awesome?" If every little thing is described at "awesome," then what's to be said about the Grand Canyon?
Lastly, people please stop using "absolutely" so much. I actually heard someone on radio saying "absolutely" when responding to "thank you."
And while I'm at it, how about the overuse of "awesome?" If every little thing is described at "awesome," then what's to be said about the Grand Canyon?
Lastly, people please stop using "absolutely" so much. I actually heard someone on radio saying "absolutely" when responding to "thank you."
2
And while we are on the subject of English:
I have had numerous differences of opinion with President Obama over the years, especially over the hideous Iran deal, but watching him on the television last night, I couldn’t help thinking that the man speaks in grammatically correct American English sentences and paragraphs that, however purposefully inaccurate and misleading they may be at times, actually transmit his ideas and thoughts to the American people in a straightforward, coherent fashion.
Now comes Trump with his policy proposals that are not policy proposals; his bombast; his epithets; his non-sequiturs; his deliberate lies; his slurring of women and minorities; his empty slogans; his stupid braggadocio; his preposterous boasts of having formed fast friendships with members of every minority group on earth with the possible exception of Laplanders and Eskimos; his pathetic claims of loving everyone and being loved by them; his ridiculous posturing as an exceptional patriot and great man of business; and his baseball hat that has a fortune cookie slogan printed on it.
Why is it that the Founding Fathers never thought to include a provision in the Constitution mandating Presidents of the United States to be capable of writing and speaking simple American English at a level understandable to ordinary people
over the age of 14 and bearing a reasonable approximation to the truth?
Yes, I know they couldn’t foresee Mr. Trump, but they needed to.
I have had numerous differences of opinion with President Obama over the years, especially over the hideous Iran deal, but watching him on the television last night, I couldn’t help thinking that the man speaks in grammatically correct American English sentences and paragraphs that, however purposefully inaccurate and misleading they may be at times, actually transmit his ideas and thoughts to the American people in a straightforward, coherent fashion.
Now comes Trump with his policy proposals that are not policy proposals; his bombast; his epithets; his non-sequiturs; his deliberate lies; his slurring of women and minorities; his empty slogans; his stupid braggadocio; his preposterous boasts of having formed fast friendships with members of every minority group on earth with the possible exception of Laplanders and Eskimos; his pathetic claims of loving everyone and being loved by them; his ridiculous posturing as an exceptional patriot and great man of business; and his baseball hat that has a fortune cookie slogan printed on it.
Why is it that the Founding Fathers never thought to include a provision in the Constitution mandating Presidents of the United States to be capable of writing and speaking simple American English at a level understandable to ordinary people
over the age of 14 and bearing a reasonable approximation to the truth?
Yes, I know they couldn’t foresee Mr. Trump, but they needed to.
50
The only reason he hasn't insulted or "loved" Lapps is that he doesn't know Lapland exists. I can only imagine: "They herd reindeer? I love reindeer! Doesn't everybody love reindeer? Rudolf, now that's a great song! A great AMERICAN song. When I'm president, every store will play it at Christmas because I won't let them ban christmas trees and reindeer like they do now!"
3
Did yourself originate with "himself"? Isn't that an Irish or Scottish expression gently satirizing grandiosity?
Today yourself not a person but a system built largely of commodities, including status, apps, meds, IDs, social networks, and tracking. It is not the same as "you," which may soon require quotes to signify its meaning.
Today yourself not a person but a system built largely of commodities, including status, apps, meds, IDs, social networks, and tracking. It is not the same as "you," which may soon require quotes to signify its meaning.
1
I'm not sure why you say that the misuse of reflexive pronouns hasn't crossed the Atlantic, given the widespread and erroneous substitution of "myself" for "I" as a subject, e.g., "Joe and myself went to the store," or for "me" as a direct object, e.g., "he rented the house to Jane and myself." I think that somewhere, somehow, someone got terrorized by an English teacher for misusing "me" while speaking, as in "him and me are going hunting," and retreated to the false safe haven of myself. Who knows? Not me.
14
Language is a living , growing thing........
......But sometimes what grows are warts and cancers.
......But sometimes what grows are warts and cancers.
8
Maybe this is what is required these days to differentiate ourselves from the common terrorists, whose objective it is to hurt you and me....
you must not listen to much casual speech and certainly no dialect. "yourself" has nothing to do with class pretensions. it is not only irish english of long-standing but via irish english is very well attested in country and city colloquialisms across north america, australia, and all the UK. if you just noticed some english people doing, okay. there are little fads for colloquialisms that seize the media from time to time. when you come into my house, get yourself some coffee, and welcome.
1
This usage of "yourself" is standard Hiberno-English. Some sources hold that it may be a vestige of a more formal second person, akin to the second person plural in romance languages and the plural form "ye" in present day Hiberno-English. "How are you" "Very well, yourself?" is a fragment of conversation you hear dozens of times a day in public places in Ireland. A very standard archaism.
I am not surprised that this usage pops up in England, where I grew up in an Irish family. Where many people of Irish descent live after generations of migration. I am slightly surprised to see that an op-ed writer with such strong international credentials has neglected to do the research before penning yet another "what's happening to the English language" piece.
I am not surprised that this usage pops up in England, where I grew up in an Irish family. Where many people of Irish descent live after generations of migration. I am slightly surprised to see that an op-ed writer with such strong international credentials has neglected to do the research before penning yet another "what's happening to the English language" piece.
3
A world without Roger Cohen would be stark indeed. The only current U.S. "in speak" I wish you had mentioned is "Just sayin'". [Sometimes the "g" is added to the participle by some uncool person.] Or, on a recent email, its variation, "Just my thoughts". So sweet. So self-deprecatory. So stupid.
7
I can't wait to hear the royal 'ourselves'.
1
“Does that work for yourself?
Too formal and paternalistic. Condescending. Feigned politeness.
YOU'RE Fired; how does that work for yourself?
Too formal and paternalistic. Condescending. Feigned politeness.
YOU'RE Fired; how does that work for yourself?
5
Columns like this one by Roger Cohen is one of the reasons the NYT is an indispensable newspaper. I even teach a university physics course largely from the NYT.
10
A colleague promises to "reach out" to me when all I expect is a routine phone call. Another wants to "share" information rather than just telling me about it. I'm amused by such attempts to plane the hard edges off traditional business communication. But I know that language is in constant flux; words (buzz and others), and phrases come and go, reflecting ever-changing social and technological conditions. Do we speak like Bill Shakespeare? Or Tom Jefferson?
8
There are certain colloquialisms in America in which one might run into that usage of 'yourself': 'Sit yourself down' comes to mind. But this is quite an old usage here, not new at all..might it come from the Irish?
2
Oddly, in the context at hand, "sit yourself down" IS the proper use of a reflexive pronoun. "get yourself a beer" ranks similarly.
One must grant that the specifics of how and when to properly use a reflexive pronoun are tough to squeeze down into a simple, comprehensible, and accurate paragraph.
An attempt derived from my online dictionary: "reflexive: (Grammar) denoting a pronoun that refers back to the subject of the clause in which it is used, e.g., myself, themselves."
One must grant that the specifics of how and when to properly use a reflexive pronoun are tough to squeeze down into a simple, comprehensible, and accurate paragraph.
An attempt derived from my online dictionary: "reflexive: (Grammar) denoting a pronoun that refers back to the subject of the clause in which it is used, e.g., myself, themselves."
3
And here I was thinking it was a whole generation uncertain about when to use "I" or "me", and opting instead for "myself", as in "myself and a friend went to the cinema"; just as they use the plural "they" for the singular third person in order to avoid specifying gender, as in "my friend said they found it boring."
6
Paul Fussell, in his classic "BAD: Or, the Dumbing of America," offered a disquisition on the assumption that a multiplicity of syllables transforms an otherwise trite and jejune discourse into an intelligent, insightful, authoritative communication.
;}
Linguist Alan C. Ross, in the 1950s, distinguished U and Non-U (upper and working class), with the latter ofren prone to fussiness, e.g., 'serviette' instead of 'napkin', as parodied in the Britcom 'Keeping Up Appearances' with social climber Hyacinth Bucket ('that's "Boo-QUAY").
'Yourself' trumps 'you' because it has five more letters and an additional syllable. Therefore, applying what I will call the Ross-Fussell Rule, it must be classier. (Similarly, 'which' is often used when 'that' is appropriate, because people don't understand restrictive vs nonrestrictive clauses and think 'which' is more intellectual or formal.)
I admit I stop reading anything in which punctuation multiplies like rabbits, or that has a hashtag, and most Internet acronyms stop me cold, as do almost all pop catchphrases. And when someone sympathises with 'I'm here for you,' I usually snap back, 'please be somewhere else for me.' Not being a world-famous, world-travelled columnist obliged to keep au courant (yes, I know; pretentious foreign phrases), I can afford to do this. So, for me at least, no worries. (My mother was from Brisbane, so I figure I'm entitled.)
;}
Linguist Alan C. Ross, in the 1950s, distinguished U and Non-U (upper and working class), with the latter ofren prone to fussiness, e.g., 'serviette' instead of 'napkin', as parodied in the Britcom 'Keeping Up Appearances' with social climber Hyacinth Bucket ('that's "Boo-QUAY").
'Yourself' trumps 'you' because it has five more letters and an additional syllable. Therefore, applying what I will call the Ross-Fussell Rule, it must be classier. (Similarly, 'which' is often used when 'that' is appropriate, because people don't understand restrictive vs nonrestrictive clauses and think 'which' is more intellectual or formal.)
I admit I stop reading anything in which punctuation multiplies like rabbits, or that has a hashtag, and most Internet acronyms stop me cold, as do almost all pop catchphrases. And when someone sympathises with 'I'm here for you,' I usually snap back, 'please be somewhere else for me.' Not being a world-famous, world-travelled columnist obliged to keep au courant (yes, I know; pretentious foreign phrases), I can afford to do this. So, for me at least, no worries. (My mother was from Brisbane, so I figure I'm entitled.)
11
"Commentator" evokes a widely used root vegetable. Why not "commenter"?
1
Leading Edge Boomer, I'm willing to put up with 'commentator' because it's a technical job description. You and I are 'commenters'; no one is paying us for our opinions. Commentators are presumably professional specialists, paid to spout off, often, as in the case of sports or political conventions, to provide a running commentary in real time.
Who cares about the English language. Pop culture rules now and flaunting your ignorance is the thing now. To be educated is to be uppity. The irony is that the ignorant try to sound "smart" by butchering the language.
8
Kudos to Roger Cohen for sharing. Your the greatest!!
39
You do mean, do you not, that "yourself is the greatest"?
4
"You're the greatest"
:)
:)
1
No matter how much it grates, it's already yore.
1
any corporation worth its HR department would also have to consider whether an changes were to much of an "ask" and too "concerning" to their internal "stakeholders".
30
Phill--No kidding! How about the DYI TV habit of referring to the "remodel," the "build," or the big "reveal." Hilarious.
2
Speaking of "HR", we've become so accustomed to the horrible term "human resources" that it doesn't even register anymore. All of this annoying language will either disappear or we'll become inured to it.
Speaking for myself - this does sound ridiculous. But, language evolves - resistance is futile.
4
YES! The manic addition of -self as a suffix in myriad inappropriate places, in an attempt to sound more 'refined', is utterly maddening. As a British person long-resident in the U.S., my grammar peeve du jour is the redundant use of 'of' in phrases such as "outside of the house". No, "outside the house" suffices and is, in fact, correct.
3
What a smashing write up of postmodern cliche popping Sorry, my keyboard is not set up foe e-agues at the moment . But the Anglos have their own linguistic pitfalls and who better to sort them out than the original speakers They will alway be charming in their own way. On my first visit to UK in 1971 , when the London cab driver addressed me as gov'ner I was amused out of my mind, left him a gigantic tip, and realized his ploy only hours later. They will find a way to make the most of Brexit and continue to be our best friend in Europe. Even though the Britons are pushed far to the west by now, Albion remains gently perfidious in its own way. A lover
Y column . Thanks.
Y column . Thanks.
4
Where have you been? The improper use of "myself" has been rampant for years. You can hear it here every day. It is most often heard in interviews with athletes.
11
Yes! Thank you, Roger Cohen, as always, for your fine words and observations. Slang separates us and gives status to bad grammar. As Henry Higgins said, "Why can't the English teach their people how to speak?!" Indeed.
1
Henry Higgins also noted, in relation to the use of spoken English
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely disappears -
In America, they haven't used it for years.
p.
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely disappears -
In America, they haven't used it for years.
p.
1
It goes without saying...
5
And then there is the response "no problem" to "thank you". When did this become the norm? To my mind, "no problem" implies "well you got lucky when you got me to help you. Otherwise, you might have had a problem". It is becoming rare to hear a gracious "you're welcome".
Lovely column, Roger.
Lovely column, Roger.
42
Growing up in Utah, I heard this all the time. I don't hear it in Tennessee as much--perhaps it's a western thing (I'm assuming you're referring to your experience in Washington)? I had a linguistics professor from Australia, and he said that was one of the first things he noticed on moving to California--the colloquial "no worries" from Australia, he thought, had morphed as it traveled across the Pacific and hit the west coast. I'm not sure about that, but it does seem to me to be used more in western states.
The anti-no-problem crowd just doesn't get it.
"You're welcome" is as dismissive of a 'thank you' as 'no problem' is. "What I just did for you was a small thing that didn't warrant any extra effusion on your part. YOU ARE WELCOME to that small bit of politeness I offered."
Look at other languages where the customary response to is the equivalent of 'de nada,' ("of nothing"). In fact, the self-deprecating version of that in English IS "it was nothing" (would you accept "no big deal" as an alternative?).
"You're welcome" is as dismissive of a 'thank you' as 'no problem' is. "What I just did for you was a small thing that didn't warrant any extra effusion on your part. YOU ARE WELCOME to that small bit of politeness I offered."
Look at other languages where the customary response to is the equivalent of 'de nada,' ("of nothing"). In fact, the self-deprecating version of that in English IS "it was nothing" (would you accept "no big deal" as an alternative?).
6
Some more modernisms:
I know, right?
As if.
I can't even.
So this, such that.
'K?
We good?
Sup?
I know, right?
As if.
I can't even.
So this, such that.
'K?
We good?
Sup?
30
How about "catch a TV program rather than "watch"? This one compliments of my local PBS station.
1
Poor old Cohen...running out of things to write!
1
I would say "Thank you" for this social commentary, but am refraining for fear of receiving the cringeworthy and insidious response "No problem." !
6
a href=, I am happy that you mentioned "no problem". That one gets to me! In a restaurant, for example, you ask for more water or butter or whatever and the response is often, "no problem". I have to bite my tongue to refrain from saying, "I did not intend for it to be a problem" or some such response.
2
Having lived in England for almost 30 years, and spending quite a bit of time travelling around it, I can reassure you that this epidemic cannot be very widespread as I have never heard anyone use "yourself" in the sense you deplore. So the disease has not yet afflicted London (where I spend quite a bit of time) to any great extent, and is completely unknown in Oxford where I live. You can therefore relax and worry about Brexit instead.
13
Nothing to worry about, Roger. It's just that everyone wants to be Irish. In fact, how's yourself this fine morning?
14
TMI, Dude.
3
Peter's own self would like to reach out and thank your's own self for this article.
8
I've always stumbled over the " he or she " construction. I vote " they " as a grammatical convenience. No worries (mate).
2
Thanks for this. I'm forwarding it to all my (few) English major friends.
2
Thank you, thank you, from "myself". I have quietly tried to correct the overuse of the reflexive pronoun whenever I hear it. But it seems that no one learns grammar any more. Bring back Strunk and White!
19
That is news to me, and I find it very weird indeed. Doesn't work for myself at all. But I guess it's better than reading about Trump.
5
Oh, Mr. Cohen, You have this morning made my day for myself. And I am sure that if if told you that in person, you would answer 'no problem'.
6
There have already been many columns in many forums (fora, for Roger Cohen) cataloguing pet peeves about language. I'm not sure what the purpose of this column was, since many linguists have shown many times that some language innovations die out and other become the standard of tomorrow's language. I wouldn't have minded a column on langauge differences or even the slow death of some interesting grammatical features (e.g. subjunctive), but those would be topics interesting and enlightening for the readership. "Reach out" has been around for decades. It's time to let that go.
1
#1. Americans should really get used to the idea that people speak English slightly differently in other countries.
Other things as well. For instance for some reason, known only to God, the English prefer to eat their toast COLD. (!!) But don't get your knickers-in-a-knot over it. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, as the saying goes.
#2. I'm at a loss to understand how "yourself" is 'more polite' that "you".
#3. Americans are just (or more) likely to come up with odd ways of saying things.
Go back about 10 years or so ago and the slang expression 'Phat' was all the rage. I'm not sure if anyone ever really figured out what it was supposed to mean.
#4. Don't complain unless what the other person is saying is incomprehensible. (And I've had that experience talking to both Americans and Brits.)
Other things as well. For instance for some reason, known only to God, the English prefer to eat their toast COLD. (!!) But don't get your knickers-in-a-knot over it. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, as the saying goes.
#2. I'm at a loss to understand how "yourself" is 'more polite' that "you".
#3. Americans are just (or more) likely to come up with odd ways of saying things.
Go back about 10 years or so ago and the slang expression 'Phat' was all the rage. I'm not sure if anyone ever really figured out what it was supposed to mean.
#4. Don't complain unless what the other person is saying is incomprehensible. (And I've had that experience talking to both Americans and Brits.)
5
Brits like eating toast cold?! rubbish
1
#1 - toast racks! A perfect mechanism for cooling off toast as fast as possible!
2
Obviously not the right optics for yourself.
2
Irregardless of how these little language quirks might offend you're sensibilities, there is no need to go nucular.
84
No joke--I heard "not irregardless" the other day from a local businessman...
3
I didn't understand the article, or your comment, but then wahlaa, it all dawned on me. Knowing French is helpful.
2
Please, spell the word properly: it's "nukular"
Roger, Iself enjoyed this diversion from the dark topics that dominate the news cycle. Thank yourself.
28
Groovy!
2
"Those attending will be Bill and myself."
9
That's a common grammatical error. Not the same thing (Hillary does not habitually replace "me" and "you" with "myself" and "yourself").
2
Roger, you should never visit Ireland if you have such a strong aversion to the reflexive (which is also an intensive, as in "you yourself"—that's what accounts for much of the seemingly idiosyncratic usage). After 25 years in the U.S., my Irish husband still says "And what about yourself?" if he's asking me if I'd also like a cup of coffee or a drink. I think it's charming, but I also wonder if it's some transferral from the Irish language, about which I know nothing, into English. Like reflexive pronouns in French that seem redundant to English learners.
60
Yes, in Irish, féin is the reflexive and it's very common. When answering any question about one's health, state of mind, or such, one always adds "agus tu féin" -- and you yourself? -- to one's reply.
2
I wonder why it seems charming when the Irish use it and weird in British or American usage.
1
Yep, it's a direct translation from Irish, as a commentator below mentions.
The reflexive pronouns "yourself" and "himself" have long been used by the Irish.
52
and also in parts of Scotland
3
Right. Walk in to a pub alone in Ireland and you're likely to hear, "Is it yourself then?"
4
The obsequiousness of the reflexive pronoun may not have reached yankee shores, but its misuse is as prevalent as the overcorrection of the personal pronoun. ("He explained that to her and I.") I"m sick of these sentences that feign politeness in the same way as the Brits: "If you have further questions about the elimination of your position, please let Pat, Chris, or myself know how we can help you." It may not be a social class issue so much in the U.S., but its ubiquity in administrative memos, emails, and inter-office meetings suggests the equivalent of a royal "we" from the tops of the corporate ladder.
46
@ cdude: I always thought that the use of myself instead of me happened because the speaker somehow believed the word me to be egotistical or vulgar, and the word myself to be more polite or refined.
1
I think that grade-school teachers tried so hard to instill a fear of 'me and Sally' that the use of 'me' in any context causes an unconscious shiver.
3
Myself hopes thou hast a nice day!
31
Apostrophe abuse has been running neck in neck with improper preposition use and comma abuse for nearly a decade—and now reflexive pronouns are poised to join this litany of woes? After the RNC, nothing surprises myself.
59
I think it's "neck AND neck"...
8
"Yourself" has thankfully not yet reached the Midwest, but you could add to the list of irritating expressions the "reach out" phenomenon, where no one writes or calls and speaks to anyone anymore: instead we "reach out" to others, as though we were all drowning and grasping for help, or the other person were hanging off the edge of a cliff.
75
It reached the Midwest long ago -- more than 20 years ago. Don't you remember Michael Jordan in post-game interviews explaining how "myself and my supporting cast" defeated the other team by doing such and such, etc.? His referring to his teammates as "my supporting cast" was pretentious enough, but the use of the reflexive pronoun "myself" always struck me as weirdly ungrammatical.
2
Here in the Midwest, many people 'answer back' instead of responding.
3
Have you ever spoken with people in Chicago? I personally believe the misuse of pronouns started in the United States. I don't know when it started but remember having a conversation regarding the misuse of "myself" in Chicag the early 1990s.
I can't believe how relaxed that short piece made me feel. Just an intelligent, useful little diatribe about words. After this awful week of bad news, with promise of so much more to come, I needed this.
Nearly every one made me smile in agreement. William Safire used to be able to do that, and I miss it. So, thank yourself.
Nearly every one made me smile in agreement. William Safire used to be able to do that, and I miss it. So, thank yourself.
196
Irregardless or your concerns for language, folks will just put this on the back-burner. Myself; however - I will let this marinate.
59
Actually, "irregardless" is not a real word. "Regardless" suffices. But grammarians can parse into eternity..."hopefully" (ha ha) we will come to a tenuous agreement.
3
Methinks Marti missed the irony lesson in high school English.
11
A friend of mine - one of my teachers at university - used to say 'disirregardless' just to drive the point home. I still use it, to the consternation of some people who think I'm serious. Those who think I'm American just shrug in that what-else-can-you-expect? manner.
p.
p.
My fifth-grade teacher would have disemboweled me for using "yourself" instead of "you," and in 40 years of professional editing, I've shortened these pronouns literally thousands of times. It's not just pretentious; it's grammatically wrong.
133
I agree. However, there is the argument that language is organic and, therefore, evolves. A second argument says that there is no "correct" form of any language. To suggest otherwise is linguistic hegemony. As, for example, the Indian use of the present continuous verb in discussing matters of habit. Who would dare tell 1 billion English speakers that they are in error?
that might-be "incorrect",
rather than "wrong" ...
CHEERS !!
2
bravo!!!!!
16
Glad to see you "talked to that" issue.
21
I want to add "double down" to Cohen's list of phrases that have become incredibly overused. I hear it every ten minutes on TV and radio, even by apparently smart and articulate commentators. Enough! I propose a two year moratorium on its use...
32
Isn't the "yourself" thing a Cockney idiom of yesteryear? I can remember hearing it in the 70s on TV in the UK, as in: "And how's yourself and the missus?"
Odd that it's been co-opted in this way.
Odd that it's been co-opted in this way.
25
Even more ironic--if this word is supposed to be faux-posh; the origin of the word in Cockney usage is from Ireland. Poor Irish immigrants moved to the less fortunate areas in Liverpool and London, bringing their constant usage of "him/herself." So today's posh is yesterday's peasant.
8
You forget "The Full English Breakfast?"
7
Masterpiece; but you missed singular=unique.
7
Love this! "No worries" is slightly worse than "No problem." But maybe "yourself" and "myself" haven't crossed the Atlantic to the extent that you fear it might, but it HAS been here forever! As in the flight attendants, "Annie and myself have enjoyed having you on this trip"
7
Your flight attendants actually said more than "Buh-bye?" LOL!!!
1
I can only speak for myself but I live in London and haven't noticed any increase in the use, or misuse, of "yourself". Mr Cohen must mix is rather odd circles.
What I have noticed it the increasing use of insincere Americanisms such as as saying "awesome" in response to the most banal of interactions such as buying a coffee. At least Londoners have retained a sufficient sense of irony to say "Have a nice day" only when they mean precisely the opposite
What I have noticed it the increasing use of insincere Americanisms such as as saying "awesome" in response to the most banal of interactions such as buying a coffee. At least Londoners have retained a sufficient sense of irony to say "Have a nice day" only when they mean precisely the opposite
97
In America, the police always tell you to have a nice day after writing you a ticket, to which it is best not to respond at all. When anyone else says that to me, I politely respond "Thank you, but I've already made other plans."
6
So "awesome" is awful but "brilliant" (the UK equivalent) is just fine?
19
Ahh, the superiority of the English strikes again!
And, by the way, I don't want anyone to have my back. I prefer to keep it.
111
Sooo right! In fact, that phrase still confuses me. Whatever happened to "I'll back you up?"
3
But you would still need someone to pull the arrows out of your back...
1
At the end of the day, me, myself and I watch the sun go down. At that point in time I, myself, always ponder the existence of a point that is not in time and wonder why a conclusion can't be reached before the end of any given day.
Orwell turns over in his grave, LOL.