It seems clear that on questions of race, or more specifically on the value of African-Americans in this country, Giuliani is not just an opportunist. He is a genuine racist.
4
Another fabulous article pointing out the rare abuses of police and some obvious missteps of a concerted effort to improve life for the largest urban population in the United States while ignoring the most pressing problem of race relations and crime. You begin with a provocative title and proceed to a false conclusion with no proof or support.
Rhetoric is a laudable tool, using it to twist the truth and ignore and obscure is reprehensible. Cherry picking is great on farms but has no place in Journalism and using it to defame the truth should be exposed to all who value it above venal self service. Blast Rahm, Barack, Hillary et al for their divisive policies and you might earn the mantel you seek, "All the News that is fit to print".
Rhetoric is a laudable tool, using it to twist the truth and ignore and obscure is reprehensible. Cherry picking is great on farms but has no place in Journalism and using it to defame the truth should be exposed to all who value it above venal self service. Blast Rahm, Barack, Hillary et al for their divisive policies and you might earn the mantel you seek, "All the News that is fit to print".
33
"All lives matter," while on the surface reasonable enough, misses the point. "All lives" aren't being equally threatened by rogue police officers.
But what can you expect from the man who sold New York out to Disney, thus crushing its personality?
But what can you expect from the man who sold New York out to Disney, thus crushing its personality?
30
Why does The Times Editorial Board react like this when it is presented with facts that contradict its position? Giuliani isn't changing the subject. He's offering a different perspective supported by data. Only a propagandist would consider conflicting data to be "disinformation."
There's a real danger in this resistance to other perspectives. Too many are locked in a decades old paradigm and cannot handle new information. Is it any wonder they keep complaining that nothing has changed? It's their mindset that hasn't changed.
There's a real danger in this resistance to other perspectives. Too many are locked in a decades old paradigm and cannot handle new information. Is it any wonder they keep complaining that nothing has changed? It's their mindset that hasn't changed.
65
You say, “Those who remember Mr. Giuliani as the hectoring mayor of New York know what he has to offer any conversation on race and violence — not a lot.”
By cutting the murder rates from 1992-1993 averages, Mayor Giuliani, during the years 1994 through 1997 saved 3,388 victims - 1,578 Black and 1,446 Hispanic. (Official, privately obtained NYPD stats.)
So, in just those few years,, over 3,000 black and Hispanic lives were saved by Giuliani and Bratton. The cut in murders has been even better since 1997 and the Mayor for whom you have such contempt can conservatively be credited with saving at least 20,000 minority lives - by all accounts mostly young men.
It turns out that NYPD's aggressive effort made it hazardous to be antisocial with a gun in your pocket. And then ordinary guys didn't need a gun to protect themselves from the antisocial guys.
Of course, even in the crowded city, no one hears the tree that did not fall. None of the saved know they've been resurrected. None of their families, none of their friends, none of their communities celebrate their survival. But they are real people, and if they could know themselves to be among the lives saved, we'd soon see a remarkable parade of thousands of young black and Hispanic men and their families and their friends wending its way down to City Hall and One Police Plaza. They still wouldn't like bad cops, but they'd shake hands and give thanks for what they would now recognize as tough love well done.
By cutting the murder rates from 1992-1993 averages, Mayor Giuliani, during the years 1994 through 1997 saved 3,388 victims - 1,578 Black and 1,446 Hispanic. (Official, privately obtained NYPD stats.)
So, in just those few years,, over 3,000 black and Hispanic lives were saved by Giuliani and Bratton. The cut in murders has been even better since 1997 and the Mayor for whom you have such contempt can conservatively be credited with saving at least 20,000 minority lives - by all accounts mostly young men.
It turns out that NYPD's aggressive effort made it hazardous to be antisocial with a gun in your pocket. And then ordinary guys didn't need a gun to protect themselves from the antisocial guys.
Of course, even in the crowded city, no one hears the tree that did not fall. None of the saved know they've been resurrected. None of their families, none of their friends, none of their communities celebrate their survival. But they are real people, and if they could know themselves to be among the lives saved, we'd soon see a remarkable parade of thousands of young black and Hispanic men and their families and their friends wending its way down to City Hall and One Police Plaza. They still wouldn't like bad cops, but they'd shake hands and give thanks for what they would now recognize as tough love well done.
68
This isn't intended as a public comment on this article but as a followup question regarding a comment I submitted about 9 hours ago when this article first appeared. If it were going to be approved it seems it would've been by now, which makes me wonder why it would have been rejected. If it turns out to have been rejected I will likely not bother to submit further comments in this paper… which is perhaps your goal?? In recent comments I've been highly critical of NYT's coverage of BLM-related events. I have directly questioned the underlying motive of NYT's stance on the issue which I have found to be aggressively biased against police. I'm sincerely concerned about how the tone of such an important newspaper effects the national discourse which in turn can effect actual events on the ground during very volatile times. I'm not attacking NYT just for the sake of it. I've been a daily reader for about 15 years and I honestly worry about the direction the editorial board has taken here. I take time to craft what I hope to be intelligent and passionate contributions to the discussion, and if my comment on this article was rejected on the grounds that it was too harsh of an attack on this newspaper I would be quite surprised and disappointed.
55
Rudy Giuliani is a classic case of a person who accidentally finds himself in the right place at the right time----and concludes that he is a genius. Sadly, no. He was simply blessed to be at the right place at the right time.
12
Why is Rudolph Guiliani invited to the Sunday shows to start with? I'll answer - because there are so many of them and they are scrambling for 'guests'.
Never have we had more access to so-called news outlets and never have we been more mis-informed.
Never have we had more access to so-called news outlets and never have we been more mis-informed.
20
Mr. Guiliani's thinking is so poisonous that responsible media should think twice about about giving him air time. I am all for free speech but giving Mr. Guiliani airtime is more insidious than giving it to David Duke.
26
Mr. Giuliani is not only a racist, but a stupid cop. Race is rarely a factor involved in most murders. The myth of "black on black" crime has to do with proximity in communities and the fact that most shootings involve those we know. I'm glad the NYTimes editors have pointed out this hack politician's constant attempts to be racist, and I would further add that his ideas about governing and policing were not popular for long, and sound even more outdated and dumb now.
22
I have lived in New York for most of my life although as this post suggests I am now living in Baltimore. I was living in NY throughout the entire time that Giuliani served as Mayor and for many years both before and after. I never understood back then why the Times did not castigate Giuliani then as they have now done in respect to his bigoted, hateful and ignorant remarks.
He held sway as Mayor with an iron fist and used the NYPD as if they were his own little army even while supporting the strong arm tactics they employed then which only now are causing such concern.
Remember the protests that could not be staged on the steps of City Hall?..the ones that he squashed while using his army (read, Police) to intimidate and deny First Amendment rights?. The list goes on and on but there isn't time or space.
The fact is that the NYT which I really do admire for the most part fell woefully short during His term as Mayor and allowed him to trample far too many individual and group rights while championing the great work he did reducing crime. That "great" work by the way was also accompanied by a simultaneous economic recovery which the Mayor was most definitely not responsible for but he was, at the same time, the very fortunate beneficiary of as it, more than anything else, helped lower crime rates not only in NY but across great swaths of the rest of the Country.
I'm glad to see the Times step up but in this case, too little, too late.
He held sway as Mayor with an iron fist and used the NYPD as if they were his own little army even while supporting the strong arm tactics they employed then which only now are causing such concern.
Remember the protests that could not be staged on the steps of City Hall?..the ones that he squashed while using his army (read, Police) to intimidate and deny First Amendment rights?. The list goes on and on but there isn't time or space.
The fact is that the NYT which I really do admire for the most part fell woefully short during His term as Mayor and allowed him to trample far too many individual and group rights while championing the great work he did reducing crime. That "great" work by the way was also accompanied by a simultaneous economic recovery which the Mayor was most definitely not responsible for but he was, at the same time, the very fortunate beneficiary of as it, more than anything else, helped lower crime rates not only in NY but across great swaths of the rest of the Country.
I'm glad to see the Times step up but in this case, too little, too late.
19
People like Giuliani and Sarah Palin can have whatever opinion they want about current affairs, but what I don't understand is why they still have access to public forums years after their public service has ended. What makes their opinions anymore useful than anyone else's. Surely their are many other people better qualified to speak to today's issues.
16
These washed up politicians are too lazy to get a real job so they spew hatred. The spew gets the attention of the washed up cable talk shows that will powder their noses, parade the spew on tv and pay them for it.
So. Over. It.
So. Over. It.
14
Sorry but the "myths" are coming from the NYT and BLM. The biggest ones being "Hands Up Don't shoot" , and that a group that Chants "What to we want, "dead Cops" is somehow not anti-cop.
Last week we saw 2 videos: one of police officers shooting an armed man who was violently resisting arrest and another of the events immediately following an officer shooting a motorist during a routine traffic stop. Instead of pleading for calm and waiting for the facts to come out of an investigation, the NYT and BLM chose to fan the flames of hatred and screamed "Murder". If these cops in either of these shootings are in fact guilty of misconduct or malice, then by all means throw the book at them. Given the track record of the complete evidence continually supporting the police, I will continue to reflexively believe the police until they are proven wrong.
Last week we saw 2 videos: one of police officers shooting an armed man who was violently resisting arrest and another of the events immediately following an officer shooting a motorist during a routine traffic stop. Instead of pleading for calm and waiting for the facts to come out of an investigation, the NYT and BLM chose to fan the flames of hatred and screamed "Murder". If these cops in either of these shootings are in fact guilty of misconduct or malice, then by all means throw the book at them. Given the track record of the complete evidence continually supporting the police, I will continue to reflexively believe the police until they are proven wrong.
45
As a visitor to the United States, I always marvel at the opportunities here! Even people like Guliani or Trump can make it, and then spew their pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps nonsense in public, nationally and even internationally!!
It's such a great place, even fools can make it here, and be so free to practice their racist and ignorant nonsense, and also feel good about themselves, especially if they have a lot of money or friends with a lot of money!!
I had a professor at my college, you wouldn't believe the stuff he sometimes spewed! "Why is it more corrupt where you're from?" etc etc. I always thought "haha!! And you think we have more corruption in a tiny economy than a place with an economy worth trillions of dollars!!?? Haha!!" I didn't say it out loud, for the sake of my grades!! And I often said to myself "Wow!! And he's a professor!!?? I guess anybody can get a Phd!!" On a positive note, it means if I am fairly reasonable and sensible, I should be able to make it here!!!
Only in America!!!
It's such a great place, even fools can make it here, and be so free to practice their racist and ignorant nonsense, and also feel good about themselves, especially if they have a lot of money or friends with a lot of money!!
I had a professor at my college, you wouldn't believe the stuff he sometimes spewed! "Why is it more corrupt where you're from?" etc etc. I always thought "haha!! And you think we have more corruption in a tiny economy than a place with an economy worth trillions of dollars!!?? Haha!!" I didn't say it out loud, for the sake of my grades!! And I often said to myself "Wow!! And he's a professor!!?? I guess anybody can get a Phd!!" On a positive note, it means if I am fairly reasonable and sensible, I should be able to make it here!!!
Only in America!!!
13
The mangled, or rather obstinately omitted statistics is due to the NYT and other BLM enablers. The black homicide offending rate according to FBI statistics is 7-8 times that of the white homicide offending rate. More than 50% of the murders in the United States are perpetrated by blacks, who make up approximately 13% of the population. If you can't see a serious cultural problem in this, then you are willfully blind and contributing to the problem.
57
It's obvious that Giuliani and many of his ilk either have no knowledge of their own family's history, their fellow countryman's(from whence they came). Nor do they of others history from the unwelcome crowd, the Irish(me), and many more. Our history has a dark past. Each group that is latest in our country oft gets stepped on by the group that preceded them. For my/our dark skinned brothers and sisters there oft remains judgement first no matter the situation. WE AS A COUNTRY, we as people, need to open our eyes, our hearts, our minds and ears and seriously work to fix our systemic problem. It is ours as a country, it is ours as a people. The United States of America? We are not. For this I am embarrassed and ashamed of us. Giuliani and his group should be too.
20
" But unwarranted shootings by police officers remain a persistent problem, ignored for generations, exploding only now into the wider public consciousness because of bystander videos that reveal the blood-red truth."
Odd that in this same edition of the NYT, there's a story on a published study that refutes this point. Not that unwarranted shootings don't happen, but that they are racially biased (in fact, the data indicates that if there is bias, then it's against whites).
If you are going to call out Giuliani for being biased and passing false information to supposed a false perspective, perhaps you should examine your own biases in this matter.
Odd that in this same edition of the NYT, there's a story on a published study that refutes this point. Not that unwarranted shootings don't happen, but that they are racially biased (in fact, the data indicates that if there is bias, then it's against whites).
If you are going to call out Giuliani for being biased and passing false information to supposed a false perspective, perhaps you should examine your own biases in this matter.
21
Only a matter of time before "Law And Order" candidate Trump calls for criminalizing videotaping of police by civilians.
17
Black on black crime may not be very relevant to this issue, but black crime certainly is, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise, as we are talking about the government's sometimes deadly response to a way too high black crime rate. It's also disingenuous to say it's just the black communities problem, because hundreds of years of oppression made the black communities we have today. If you want to make sure negligent, reckless, or evil cops pay for killing someone of the job, I am all behind you. If you want to make sure their friends in the prosecutor's office can't cover it up, I am all behind you. If you want to make sure civilian complaints against law enforcement are taken seriously, I am all behind you. If you want me, as a white man who has has dozens of interactions with the cops, mostly bad and disrespectful(on their part), to shut up and listen, and focus on this one tree of the racist cop, and ignore the forest of issues the create this reality, then I say good luck to you.
8
Well said. If any one creature is responsible for the jack booted reputation the police have it is R Giuliani. He was the king of stop and frisk, which lead to the continued harassment of Black men and set up the kill anyone guilty of : driving while black, walking while black and all the derivatives. A thousand curses on his clan, and may he rot in the bad place.
14
He [Mr. Giuliani] added, “We wonder, do black lives matter, or only the very few black lives that are killed by white policemen?”
Every life matters, black, white or orange. BLM is not a war on cops. However, when there were 69 shootings in Chicago on this Memorial Day weekend, I would be concerned, too.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-shootings-m...
Every life matters, black, white or orange. BLM is not a war on cops. However, when there were 69 shootings in Chicago on this Memorial Day weekend, I would be concerned, too.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-shootings-m...
10
The most important part of this national conversation on race, is how the NY Times goes out of their way to omit other points of view at a critical time.
I am a Black lawyer in Washington DC, a 13th generation descendant of slaves and sharecroppers with a degree in American History, so let's just say I am hardly a slouch.
I am also a registered Republican and a straight, Conservative Christian.
What does that mean? It means in a conversation about race relations in America that so desperately needs more than one point of view, the White liberal elite at the New York Times refuse to allow those voices to be heard.
The outcome? White America thinks all of us in the Black Community are ignorant, blind Obama loyalist, on our knees waiting for the crumbs to fall from the table of the liberal elite who threw Barack Obama, a biracial con artist who doesn't even LIKE Black people at us and crowned him a Black president.
To the liberal elite: This serf isn't smiling.
Our nation is divided because the liberal elite divided it. Far easier to control and oppress the Black Community if you keep all of us in a societal box of servitude. Far easier to service serial victims and complainers with entitlements, free passes and lower expectations than to engage real dialogue and change.
How much more does America have to decline before all of us realize that life on the liberal intellectual planation isn't the way to live?
I am a Black lawyer in Washington DC, a 13th generation descendant of slaves and sharecroppers with a degree in American History, so let's just say I am hardly a slouch.
I am also a registered Republican and a straight, Conservative Christian.
What does that mean? It means in a conversation about race relations in America that so desperately needs more than one point of view, the White liberal elite at the New York Times refuse to allow those voices to be heard.
The outcome? White America thinks all of us in the Black Community are ignorant, blind Obama loyalist, on our knees waiting for the crumbs to fall from the table of the liberal elite who threw Barack Obama, a biracial con artist who doesn't even LIKE Black people at us and crowned him a Black president.
To the liberal elite: This serf isn't smiling.
Our nation is divided because the liberal elite divided it. Far easier to control and oppress the Black Community if you keep all of us in a societal box of servitude. Far easier to service serial victims and complainers with entitlements, free passes and lower expectations than to engage real dialogue and change.
How much more does America have to decline before all of us realize that life on the liberal intellectual planation isn't the way to live?
34
I love it when people claim that black people are more violent than white people. Yes there are higher rates of crime in black communities but then how do they explain WW1, WW2, the holocaust, the Spanish Civil War, slavery, the KKK, the Indian Wars, forced assimilation, the wars of religion, the US Civil War, Jim Crow, colonialism, and the war on drugs. When you add up the body count it's not even close.
22
Mr. Giuliani was a successful prosecutor in the 80's. He cleaned up New York and he ran the most politically and socially diverse city in the world as mayor. He even shook my hand once at the 86th street subway. The guy made some interesting points that were not "poisonous". That being said, can we please cue the Al Sharpton OpEd rebuttal and get this over with NYTimes?
24
Why would anyone have the expectation that Guiliani can have a positive contribution to a complex issue?
15
To say or even imply that all blacks are criminals is as ugly as saying that all Italians are members of the Mafia. That can't be true as we have a black as POTUS and an Italian who once was one of the most politically important men in NY.
4
America, please reject Rudy Giuliani's disinformation.
And accept the NY Times Editorial Board's disinformation.
That is all.
Unlike the haughty, self-important liberal elite on the Times Editorial Board, I am actually a Black man, who agrees with Mayor Giuliani 100%. The notion that the Black Community can get off scot free from even a scintilla of accountability for where we find ourselves is patently offensive--as if we as Black folks are incapable of self-reflection or self-determination.
The White liberal elite wring their hands and pronounce that because of White privilege, the system is rigged and none of us who are Black will ever rise above it.
Nonsense.
WE perpetuate distrust in the Black community as much as 'they' do. In no way are the violent shootings in Baton Rouge and Minnesota justifiable or even sane, but what is equally insane is the response peddled by the professional victimologists masquerading as "Black leaders." The Obama/Sharpton Era has ushered in a new normal of "me first" "I'm gonna get mine" and "if I don't respect that law I won't obey it."
Explain to me how that will ever work to bring unity both within our race and between the races? Spoiler alert: It won't.
Rudy is exasperated. A lot of White people are. I cannot count how many times I've heard or gotten the "I voted for Obama, and you people still don't have it together" look. They're right. We don't. And it's because of Obama and the liberal elite.
And accept the NY Times Editorial Board's disinformation.
That is all.
Unlike the haughty, self-important liberal elite on the Times Editorial Board, I am actually a Black man, who agrees with Mayor Giuliani 100%. The notion that the Black Community can get off scot free from even a scintilla of accountability for where we find ourselves is patently offensive--as if we as Black folks are incapable of self-reflection or self-determination.
The White liberal elite wring their hands and pronounce that because of White privilege, the system is rigged and none of us who are Black will ever rise above it.
Nonsense.
WE perpetuate distrust in the Black community as much as 'they' do. In no way are the violent shootings in Baton Rouge and Minnesota justifiable or even sane, but what is equally insane is the response peddled by the professional victimologists masquerading as "Black leaders." The Obama/Sharpton Era has ushered in a new normal of "me first" "I'm gonna get mine" and "if I don't respect that law I won't obey it."
Explain to me how that will ever work to bring unity both within our race and between the races? Spoiler alert: It won't.
Rudy is exasperated. A lot of White people are. I cannot count how many times I've heard or gotten the "I voted for Obama, and you people still don't have it together" look. They're right. We don't. And it's because of Obama and the liberal elite.
19
I only wonder why the media isn't done with Rudy Giuliani. Here is a bully, champion of police-state governance, whose only real claim to fame is that he happened to be mayor on 9-11 and did what any mayor would do. 15 years later, what has he done? Why does anyone care what he says?
12
This was written by Dyson. I heard him spout the same platitudes last night on CNN.
Does he have final approval on editorial postings now?
"Take this over to Dyson and have him sign off on this"
Does he have final approval on editorial postings now?
"Take this over to Dyson and have him sign off on this"
7
"Hey, look over there, not over here! We made them slaves, treated them as chattel, then 2nd class citizens, trampled their rights, and kept them in ghettos, poor, ignorant and without hope. But it's not OUR fault some of them commit crimes against each other! It's their fault! Look over there, not here!"
This is a translation and clarification of the Giuliani and Trump thesis.
This is a translation and clarification of the Giuliani and Trump thesis.
14
The editorial board of the NYT has an uphill battle that is for sure. Its usually on the wrong side of most of American's feelings anyhow. 99% of whites in this country, and I don't mean just the so called NYT stereotyped Trump supporters, I am talking about the white upper middle class, think just like Giuliani.
7
Randy G is an irrelevant old man and appears regularly on Fox News. Let's leave it at that.
4
Hard to believe this guy was a federal prosecutor.
1
I am a Black man who only has three words in response to Rudy Giuliani's comments:
He. Is. Right.
He. Is. Right.
27
Why do people still listen to this muppet?
3
Rudy is a racist. His rant on meet the press was right out of the sixties. No one should be shocked. Why did anyone at NBC think Rudy had anything to offer in this situation but his some old tired racist talking points?
2
It is telling that 10 out of the 10 NYT Picks so far all support the editors' position that Giuliani is in some respect wrong. This is despite the fact that many of the comments are supportive of Giuliani and critical of the editorial.
So the editors write an editorial that is scathingly critical of Giuliani for expressing opinions that many thoughtful people happen to agree with - suggesting that he is racist and peddling myths - but then select only those comments about the editorial that agree with editors' point of view.
Is it any wonder that the NYT has lost credibility with everyone other than those who agree with its position?
So the editors write an editorial that is scathingly critical of Giuliani for expressing opinions that many thoughtful people happen to agree with - suggesting that he is racist and peddling myths - but then select only those comments about the editorial that agree with editors' point of view.
Is it any wonder that the NYT has lost credibility with everyone other than those who agree with its position?
28
I think you have missed Giuliani's point. The danger to the black community from police is as nothing compared with the danger from violence within the community itself. Frankly, the priorities of BLM are a distraction. As long as the black community is told or tells itself that white America is the cause and solution of all its problems, there will be no progress.
30
The Times does a vast disservice with editorials like this one that reinforce polarized views and offer no hint at practical solutions.
20
Giuliani is a shrill, narcissistic has-been who is dying to be in the news feed and will say anything to get there.
8
The NYT could have written a completely different op-ed. There is only one leader in this country who has lead. His name is David Brown, the Dallas police chief. The NYT would do the country a favor by focusing on his words from yesterday. You want some unity. Most of the country would follow Brown's lead on this topic.
13
It is the Policy makers fault that some police departments have gotten out of control and some policemen. The racist have taken "BLACK LIVES MATTER" and twisted it because "TOO" was left off. Police are carrying out policies that policy makers have made and no one is talking about that. The use of deadly force is allowed my politicians that make laws that economically exploit black people such as in Ferguson Mo. and other places. The police have to enforce these unconstitutional policies. Yes the court system is tied in tight with this clever triangle of treachery of the court, policing and policy makers(politicians).
4
Your editorial is the pot calling the kettle black: the racial myths perpetrated by the NY Times are legion and have helped exacerbate the problems that we face today.
16
A lot of kids in ghetto communities don't have fathers, or father-figures. This is a fact (no matter how much you want to ignore it) and tons of psychological studies have shown that, whether white or black, these children of broken homes are more likely to challenge and resist authority (hey, if I don't have a Dad, who are you to tell me what to do?). And if a bunch of them decide to bait and provoke officers out of anger of having lost a father, are police officers just supposed to put up with it, and ignore their misbehavior or worse?
To suggest that every person killed by the police was 100% innocent even though nobody knows all the facts is a form of stereotyping itself. Black people shot by police= always victims, never aggressor.
If racism alone was the reason keeping black communities from living long and happy lives, why are black-majority countries always afflicted with high crime rates? And for those of us non-blacks shaming the NYPD, how many of us would willingly move to a majority-black community where we can see how life there really is? No, it's much safer to judge from the comfort of your white-majority, presumably low-crime suburb.
To suggest that every person killed by the police was 100% innocent even though nobody knows all the facts is a form of stereotyping itself. Black people shot by police= always victims, never aggressor.
If racism alone was the reason keeping black communities from living long and happy lives, why are black-majority countries always afflicted with high crime rates? And for those of us non-blacks shaming the NYPD, how many of us would willingly move to a majority-black community where we can see how life there really is? No, it's much safer to judge from the comfort of your white-majority, presumably low-crime suburb.
7
Good piece, editorial board. But was your own "editor" asleep at the wheel? In the 5th paragraph, line 7 you write, "Killing of the police have, mercifully been on the decline during the Obama presidency." I had to re-read that paragraph for clarity. Don't you mean "Killing BY instead of OF? As a middle school language arts teacher I have often wanted to assign essays or columns from the esteemed NYTimes to my students but have too frequently found lightly (carelessly) edited work that does not make comprehension easy, for either my white or black students. I often deeply respect the content of this publication, but remain confused and or dismayed by how poorly certain sentences are constructed.
2
Giuliani has become a menace to good reason and sense in our society. Sadly, he has a megaphone anytime TV news wants a talking head who was a NYC Mayor, even an irresponsible one. And no, I'm not only talking about Fox News. So, we must continue to answer his nonsense every time he rears his muddled head. This is a former prosecutor who, after the Michael Brown Grand Jury declined to indict the officer, publicly said that now the task is to prosecute the GJ witnesses who "lied". It would of course be the end of the judicial system as we know it if we prosecuted the witnesses in legal proceedings based on whether the GJ indicted. The only evidence they "perjured themsleves"was that other GJ witnesses, one of whom the prosecutor himself acknowledged was probably lying, contradicted them. If that's how it worked, who would ever come forward to testify ? I wouldn't. Would you? Giuliani of all people knows that. He, with his false mantle of gravitas, again I say, is a menace to common sense in our country.
7
And, of course, what really upsets the NYT editorial board is that Mr Giuliani is correct. It may not be politically correct, or fit into the NYT's political and social agenda, but it's correct. The statistics don't lie. NYC is becoming a more dangerous place under the new mayor. Why don't we step aside from the political correctness (which can be defined as wishful thinking driven by political and social viewpoints) and focus on the real issues?
25
Where is Giuliani's bad advice here? Black or white, you MUST obey a police officer and not resist arrest. Virtually no police officer will treat you badly if you cooperate and are respectful. As for dealing with thugs in the streets, black or white, Giuliani is again spot on. Avoid them to avoid being killed.
The Times often has a way of twisting politicians' (most often Republican) words to draw often erroneous conclusions about their racist, sexist, or homophobic tendencies.
The Times often has a way of twisting politicians' (most often Republican) words to draw often erroneous conclusions about their racist, sexist, or homophobic tendencies.
22
Well it got this narcissistic has-been on the TV news and in the papers, right? Oscar Wilde wrote "All publicity is good publicity".
3
Giuliani, who routinely and creatively trashed the Constitution as a prosecutor and mayor, is still unfamiliar with the document.
3
Rudy Giuliani needs to be put out to pasture. Really, who cares what he thinks?
1
Rudy did more good for NYC in his eight years as Mayor, than the NY Times did in it's entire history. And if we had followed the Times advice, Rudy would not have been mayor and the City would not have experienced it's rebirth. Don't bother telling me he had nothing to do with it. I was there, I lived it. Who do you expect me to believe? You, or my own lying eyes.
12
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions. Some people remarkably get paid to write them in a paper...
But anyway...Mr. Giuliani's remarks could also serve as a starting point...that ALL people...not just black or white or anything else...would be wise to begin this conversation at home with their children...at a very young age. The media has only made this whole situation worse by making it simple in their minds and blaming police. We do not show a terrorist beheading an American... or boiling alive his own soldiers? Why not? Because it would undermine Mr. Obama's agenda? Why do we repeatedly show a police man shooting a man in the back seat of a car? Why is one wrong and OK to show on American TV and the other not?
If Rudy were a Democrat, this paper would find his words enthralling. Let's stop politicizing this national tragedy and begin cleaning it up. Blaming and name-calling people of differing political views only exacerbates the problem.
But anyway...Mr. Giuliani's remarks could also serve as a starting point...that ALL people...not just black or white or anything else...would be wise to begin this conversation at home with their children...at a very young age. The media has only made this whole situation worse by making it simple in their minds and blaming police. We do not show a terrorist beheading an American... or boiling alive his own soldiers? Why not? Because it would undermine Mr. Obama's agenda? Why do we repeatedly show a police man shooting a man in the back seat of a car? Why is one wrong and OK to show on American TV and the other not?
If Rudy were a Democrat, this paper would find his words enthralling. Let's stop politicizing this national tragedy and begin cleaning it up. Blaming and name-calling people of differing political views only exacerbates the problem.
6
"Race baiting moralist"? That epithet applies to the hypocritical author of this, as usual, hit piece masquerading as an" editorial". Despite your lack of intestinal fortitude in signing your name to it, we know who you are. Evading responsibility is a way of life at the editorial desk at the NYT. Play wackamole with Rudy, or Trump, or any of your imaginary Republican fiends, but don't ever expose your enormously deserving posterior to any criticism by having the manhood to own up. My opinion is that a certain individual has blood on his hands notwithstanding his holier than thou "editorial stance". Those five dead cops and their families demand to know why this "race baiting moralist" in the guise of crusading journalist keeps injecting poison into the situation and is never held to account? Anyone who writes an editorial should have the guts to sign it instead of hiding behind the editorial board. If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen.
5
I don't imagine Giuliani really cares all that much about the truth of what he said. But he unerringly picked the moment and topic that would get him the most attention. He's probably on the phone with his clipping service right now asking, "How'm I doin'?"
2
What about Bill Bratton's marginally politer version of the same slanders?
1
NYT heads stuck in the sand - as usual. Giuliani is not "changing the subject." Black on black crime has been THE problem for many years. The Democrats' anti-business, raise-the-minimum-wage policies and its total support of teacher unions has made it almost impossible for young black men and women to have a shot at the American Dream.
11
The Washington Post’s authoritative database shows police shot and killed 492 non-Hispanic whites, 258 blacks and 172 Hispanics in 2015. The Post classified four percent of the shootings as “controversial.”
The FBU Uniform Crime Report combined with the Washington Post database of fatal police shootings show officer-involved shootings account for about 16 percent of white homicides and about 11 percent of black homicides.
The white and black proportion of fatal police shootings almost exactly match their respective proportion of persons arrested.
Intraracial murders are relatively rare, but about 70 percent are black-on-white murders. The FBI report (Expanded Homicide Data Table 6) shows that 446 blacks murdered whites while 187 whites (including Hispanics) murdered blacks in 2014, the most recent year for which data has been released.
The FBU Uniform Crime Report combined with the Washington Post database of fatal police shootings show officer-involved shootings account for about 16 percent of white homicides and about 11 percent of black homicides.
The white and black proportion of fatal police shootings almost exactly match their respective proportion of persons arrested.
Intraracial murders are relatively rare, but about 70 percent are black-on-white murders. The FBI report (Expanded Homicide Data Table 6) shows that 446 blacks murdered whites while 187 whites (including Hispanics) murdered blacks in 2014, the most recent year for which data has been released.
8
The problem, in a nutshell, is you contention that such a thing as “racialized violence” exists. RG is right. A Black kid is something like 40 times more likely to be killed by someone who looks just like him than by the police.
There is little, if any, “racist policing” (query at your definition of the word “racist”); when police brutality exist, it should be punished, but it’s NOT racial. If there are “unwarranted” (whatever that means) shootings by the police, they should be addressed; if criminal, punished.
But there is 0 evidence to suggest that they are racially motivated, and the leftist Narrative, which avers that the police are engaged in “an undeclared war against blackness” is not only false, but actually costs lives. If you want to address “untruths and misdirections”, check out the mirror, and heal thyself.
You can recite a litany of names of “victims” of police killings – and, curiously, not one of them is “white”. Sounds like racialized reporting.
Because the “race baiters” are EXCLUSIVELY leftists, who are obsessed with race and identity, and are peddling a poisonously false Narrative to gin up racial animosity.
How many cops have to pay with their lives before the left ceases the violent rhetoric, based upon lies?
There is little, if any, “racist policing” (query at your definition of the word “racist”); when police brutality exist, it should be punished, but it’s NOT racial. If there are “unwarranted” (whatever that means) shootings by the police, they should be addressed; if criminal, punished.
But there is 0 evidence to suggest that they are racially motivated, and the leftist Narrative, which avers that the police are engaged in “an undeclared war against blackness” is not only false, but actually costs lives. If you want to address “untruths and misdirections”, check out the mirror, and heal thyself.
You can recite a litany of names of “victims” of police killings – and, curiously, not one of them is “white”. Sounds like racialized reporting.
Because the “race baiters” are EXCLUSIVELY leftists, who are obsessed with race and identity, and are peddling a poisonously false Narrative to gin up racial animosity.
How many cops have to pay with their lives before the left ceases the violent rhetoric, based upon lies?
9
Rudy Giuliani -- you're at a Thanksgiving dinner. Your side of the table has plates piled with food, and the other half has nothing on their plates. Someone who has no food says, "We're hungry." And you reply, "We're ALL hungry." Do you understand Black Lives Matter now?
17
"A noun, a verb and 911." Biden's quip shut Guiliani up a few years ago. Where are you Joe?
6
Rudy Giuliani is one of the most loathsome products of the Republican party. His one brief moment of grace after 9/11 can't mitigate his racism and intolerance.
The 'Black Lives Matter' movement appears to strike at Giulian's (and those like him) very core. The audacity of Black men and women proclaiming that their lives are just as valuable as White lives is an attack on everything these people have built their society on. To hear Giuliani and his cohorts speak, BLM is as big a threat to America as ISIS or Al Queda. Like their guns, you'll have to pry these people's White privilege from their cold, dead hands.
The 'Black Lives Matter' movement appears to strike at Giulian's (and those like him) very core. The audacity of Black men and women proclaiming that their lives are just as valuable as White lives is an attack on everything these people have built their society on. To hear Giuliani and his cohorts speak, BLM is as big a threat to America as ISIS or Al Queda. Like their guns, you'll have to pry these people's White privilege from their cold, dead hands.
9
I thought we put Guiliani's racism to bed long ago.......
I guess we have to do it again........
Thank you members of the Editorial Board.....
I guess we have to do it again........
Thank you members of the Editorial Board.....
4
In defense of Giuliani, let us recall what New York City was like before he took over the City that his predecessors Dinkens and Koch, (the worst mayor we ever had), let it go down the tubes.
Crime was rampant, Over 2,000 murders per year. Every surface on every subway car was covered with graffiti. People living in refrigerator boxes. Squeegee people. Potholes. Times Square was unusable unless you were looking for drugs or hookers. The parks were unusable. You took your well-being into your hands when you used an ATM. Huge deficits. Dog mess all over the place. Couldn't park a convertible car on the street lest you risked having it sliced open. Staten Island was threatening to secede. People leaving in droves. The City was deemed ungovernable.
Giuliani, maybe by being a tad heavy-handed, straightened all of that out and handed a livable city over to his successor Bloomberg who greatly improved upon it. Our economy is thriving. We now have a a growing population. We attract almost 60 million tourists a year, approximately equal to the entire population of Great Britain.
Thankfully our present mayor DiBlasio, (nee Warren Wilhelm), has had the good sense to not mess it up. In fact his police commissioner is the gentleman who served under Giuliani, Bratton.
For all of this we have Rudy to thank. A little bit he reminds me of my father. When the misbehavior rate rose he'd get fed up and start coming after us sternly. We needed that. That's what Giuliani did.
Crime was rampant, Over 2,000 murders per year. Every surface on every subway car was covered with graffiti. People living in refrigerator boxes. Squeegee people. Potholes. Times Square was unusable unless you were looking for drugs or hookers. The parks were unusable. You took your well-being into your hands when you used an ATM. Huge deficits. Dog mess all over the place. Couldn't park a convertible car on the street lest you risked having it sliced open. Staten Island was threatening to secede. People leaving in droves. The City was deemed ungovernable.
Giuliani, maybe by being a tad heavy-handed, straightened all of that out and handed a livable city over to his successor Bloomberg who greatly improved upon it. Our economy is thriving. We now have a a growing population. We attract almost 60 million tourists a year, approximately equal to the entire population of Great Britain.
Thankfully our present mayor DiBlasio, (nee Warren Wilhelm), has had the good sense to not mess it up. In fact his police commissioner is the gentleman who served under Giuliani, Bratton.
For all of this we have Rudy to thank. A little bit he reminds me of my father. When the misbehavior rate rose he'd get fed up and start coming after us sternly. We needed that. That's what Giuliani did.
12
FOX News, et alia, use RG to simply reinforce & flatter the ignorance of its aging, crabby viewership of mostly white men. He is not there to inform. He is not there to promote solutions. He is there to obfuscate the issues and create a smokescreen that comforts the anxieties of his audience.
5
I didn't realize so many NY Times readers were so racist. Racism in USA has become epidemic. Most justified their racism by polls and numbers, but forget to see the same numbers goes to others race as well. Justification to discriminate is racism, when will people finally understand that? it's unconceivable to find its ok to kill an unarmed men, wherever color he is, because you suspect he is a criminal or it's up for no good. Police has judge and executed many African Americans, and has nothing to do with the idea that black people kill each other. African Americans only wants the cops responsible for killing like those seen on the videos, or on the case of Amadou Diallo, get some form of punishment. Being a cop is not license to kill innocent people in name of protect and serve. A country that intends to be an example or Freedom and Justice, and developed world, USA when it comes to race, resembles a modern form of Apartheid in South Africa.
7
Attacking the messenger,Guiliani, is far easier than proposing a remedy for the epidemic of homicides and violence in too many communities.
Over 600 homicides in Chicago and 340 in Baltimore alone in 2015 and not one proposed remedy .
Over 600 homicides in Chicago and 340 in Baltimore alone in 2015 and not one proposed remedy .
7
The NY Times, and others, refusal to address self destructive tendencies within the black community, resulting in their disproportionate struggles in American life, is like claiming smoking cigarettes has no side effects.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
7
"Hands up, don't shoot never happened". The policeman involved in the shooting in Minnesota is not white . The woman who streamed the shooting has a fund me Facebook page trying to raise 75000 dollars. Three policemen exonerated by a black judge in Baltimore aee black. There is so much that smells but the media has a focus and an agenda that parces the truth. The cable news channels love racial stife.
8
"We hope, too, that the violence calls further attention to the tragedy of hypersegregated Chicago, whose South and West Sides are beset by gangs and drugs and generations of isolation and joblessness,..."
We just don't want to talk too much about the root causes.
We just don't want to talk too much about the root causes.
3
I can't wait to see hard those slaps on the wrist will be for those Trusted Grown-Ups Who Steal Millions From Youth Sports. Maybe we could put those disgraces in carefully applied blackface and make them sell loose cigarettes on the street and let things take their course. What do you say, Mr. G?
The NY Times, and others, refusal to address self destructive tendencies within the black community, resulting in their disproportionate struggles in American life, is like claiming smoking cigarettes has no side effects.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
14
Giuliani speaks far more honestly then the NYT editoral board about these issues. This piece notes that blacks are more likely to be killed by blacks but counters with white are more likely to be killed by whites. But that isn't the relevant information. The part that matters is blacks are 7 times more likely to murdered than whites and it isn't police on black violence causing that terrible statistic. Some one needs to call out the BLM for the fact they shout hands up don't shoot despite the fact that the US Dept of Justice under a black president and black AG said that never happened in the Michael Brown case. How quickly people have forgotten what NYC was like before Giuliani and Bratton. He has more right to speak on this issues then most.
17
Rudy is just reading from the old, tattered playbook that demagogues have used for centuries. It's always worked in the past, so it should work now. Right?
Http://RaceManAnswers.com
Http://RaceManAnswers.com
3
Why is Guliani on a TV news talk show? Who cares what "America's Mayor " thinks? You think he and the jokers who invited him to the show would have taken that lesson from his embarrassing presidential run, you know the one where he basically came to Florida for a vacation instead of campaigning. Even worse was seeing Bernard Kerick on CNN. Wow are the networks scraping the bottom for someone to interview
6
The Times editorial board is the mirror image of Giuliani. Polarizing preachers of a narrow and ideologically defined view of racial relations and the roles, responsibility, and contributions of all the parties. Try taking a step back and imagining how your words come across. Insulting, hypocritical, vindictive, narrow minded, interlaced with prejudice, disconnected from reality... I can just see the spittle flying as this was typed. All the criticisms you profess for Giuliani, substitute Trump or any other conservative figure, define your own position.
11
And to think, it was a mere two or three generations ago that well-bred WASPs were saying pretty much the same things about Italians.
The worst people are the ones who forget where they come from.
The worst people are the ones who forget where they come from.
1
Remeber 9/11? Of course you do. Remember that Rugy G. toyed with the idea of canceling the election for mayor for the "good of the city" so he could lead on and save it? Maybe you do or not, I do. He is a shill for all that is horrifying coming from the rabid right. I once was at a fund raiser for a hospital foundation where he spoke. He droned on and on about family values and the intact family. It was all I could do not to stand up and ask him which one of his familes and marriages most represented those values.
5
People like Rudy Giuliani and others must be ignored by the main street media, but our 24/7 cable and self-serving news outlets needs material to fill airtime, hence they are projected as authorities on any subject and they project their point of view. I wonder why we do not have more anthropologist being quoted and interviewed to discuss their observation regarding our devolution into a post-colonial America; we haven’t and are still striving to be one.
The issue of police actions on civilians are pure and simply racist resulting from their training and profiling techniques; and I am speaking from personal experience.
It is people like Rudy Giuliani who are the problem in the discourse that needs to take place, why is it that the mainstream media keeps changing the subject from the racial divide to a Police vs Blacks issue? Election of Barack Obama helped but we have not even begun yet on the road that we must in order to become a Post-Colonial society.
The police must be trained on a European model and not Israeli model, as one deals with occupation and the other with their own community. Rudy brought in Israeli tactics for NYPD. Police training must begin with the understanding of the trainees that this is Police and not the Army, and both are distinct entities. Police deals with the community and not the enemy, Army deals with the enemy (Rudy may disagree).
The issue of police actions on civilians are pure and simply racist resulting from their training and profiling techniques; and I am speaking from personal experience.
It is people like Rudy Giuliani who are the problem in the discourse that needs to take place, why is it that the mainstream media keeps changing the subject from the racial divide to a Police vs Blacks issue? Election of Barack Obama helped but we have not even begun yet on the road that we must in order to become a Post-Colonial society.
The police must be trained on a European model and not Israeli model, as one deals with occupation and the other with their own community. Rudy brought in Israeli tactics for NYPD. Police training must begin with the understanding of the trainees that this is Police and not the Army, and both are distinct entities. Police deals with the community and not the enemy, Army deals with the enemy (Rudy may disagree).
3
Nearly 50%of young black men in our cities are out of school and out of work.
Nearly 60% of black children in our cities are being raised by single mothers.
Black Jobs Matter
The legacy of our governing plutocracy: Poverty without Hope.
Nearly 60% of black children in our cities are being raised by single mothers.
Black Jobs Matter
The legacy of our governing plutocracy: Poverty without Hope.
3
Please have BLM explain why Alton Sterling was out selling CDs at half past midnight, on a street corner with no permit (because businesses must have permits, right NYT?), and threatening someone with a gun.
Please have BLM explain what the police should have done in response to the call about Alton Sterling threatening someone with a gun.
Please have BLM explain why Alton Sterling was right to refuse to obey the orders of law enforcement officers.
Please have BLM explain why Alton Sterling was right to resist arrest.
Please have BLM explain what the police should have done in response to the call about Alton Sterling threatening someone with a gun.
Please have BLM explain why Alton Sterling was right to refuse to obey the orders of law enforcement officers.
Please have BLM explain why Alton Sterling was right to resist arrest.
15
A more accurate and better slogan would have been "Black Lives Matter Too". less inflammatory as well.
4
If you believe that by dint of pigmentation you are somehow less capable than others of lawful behavior than you are the racist, not me, or Giuliani. The plain fact of the matter is the crimes in this country are, in terms of their population, committed disproportionately by blacks. It is what it is. If purple people with yellow polka dots were 13% of the population but committed a disproportionate amount of the crime in this country, one would hope that your survival instinct is functioning such that when you encountered a purple person with yellow polka dots you would exercise increased caution. Now, clearly, appearance and attitude play a very large role. If you are neatly dressed, and amicable, a purple person with yellow polka dots will not engender the same kind caution someone unkempt and unpleasant would.
This has nothing to do with "racism" per se, in my opinion. To suggest this harkens back to slavery or something is the stuff of over-thinkers. This is just humans being humans; humans with a survival instinct that is functioning. I'm sorry that blacks commit the disproportionate amount of crime in this country but there it is. It's a fact. You can ignore it and paper over it and excuse it all you want but it is what it is.
It's not racist to notice facts. But it's infantilizing to ignore them.
This has nothing to do with "racism" per se, in my opinion. To suggest this harkens back to slavery or something is the stuff of over-thinkers. This is just humans being humans; humans with a survival instinct that is functioning. I'm sorry that blacks commit the disproportionate amount of crime in this country but there it is. It's a fact. You can ignore it and paper over it and excuse it all you want but it is what it is.
It's not racist to notice facts. But it's infantilizing to ignore them.
8
“the killings of black men by police officers in Louisiana and Minnesota”
“the ambush murders of officers by a gunman in Dallas”
The NYT then comments that “here comes Rudolph Giuliani, bringing his trademark brew of poisonous disinformation to the discussion”.
Maybe - but it’s more like here comes a nation bringing their guns to the discussion. There are significant non-white populations in say, France and the UK but I’m not seeing reporting such as that noted above.
“the ambush murders of officers by a gunman in Dallas”
The NYT then comments that “here comes Rudolph Giuliani, bringing his trademark brew of poisonous disinformation to the discussion”.
Maybe - but it’s more like here comes a nation bringing their guns to the discussion. There are significant non-white populations in say, France and the UK but I’m not seeing reporting such as that noted above.
1
"Alton Sterling, in Baton Rouge, and Philando Castile, in a St. Paul suburb, were posing no threat when they were shot." How is NYT certain of this right now? It seems to me this is yet to be determined. The videos probably don't show everything.
9
Part of the problem is the New York Times Editorial Board, which refuses to accept that there may be two sides to this issue. Liberals can be as closed minded as conservatives.
9
Rudy Giuliani is a grumpy old man who feels he has earned the right to say whatever he wants. He reminds me of Donald Trump, another old grump who likes to poke hornets' nests and bask in the adulation of the angry buzzing masses who feel they've found a new mouth, but in reality neither has the desire to make things better for anyone but themselves.
Instead of criticizing black families, perhaps he could give some suggestions on how to fund schools, clean up poor neighborhoods, give underprivileged kids something fun or useful to do other than stand around on corners, help with jobs and daycare ....
Or he can just keep yapping.
Instead of criticizing black families, perhaps he could give some suggestions on how to fund schools, clean up poor neighborhoods, give underprivileged kids something fun or useful to do other than stand around on corners, help with jobs and daycare ....
Or he can just keep yapping.
4
US gun policy really is social poison. Among other things, it is cynically exploited to reinforce racial stereotypes by white supremacists in the gun industry.
3
His pathway into obscurity is well earned. Even Poison Ivy blooms but not for long.
1
The truly horrible thing is the unbalanced way these incidents are handled. People who kill cops are almost always killed themselves or convicted at trial. Cops who kill people almost always get away with it.
4
There are three different issues here, whether or not police killings is a "problem', or whether or not that "problem" is bigger than the one of urban killings (black vs. black). Then there is the issue of fear of those killings. Giuliani is talking about fear. Blacks should be more fearful of being killed by blacks than police, especially if they are not involved in gangs or crime. Does that mean police killings is not an issue? No, but both sides seem to intertwine both issues into one another.
3
Many former politicians enrich themselves by becoming lobbyists. Giuliani has found an alternate niche: he's a professional racist. We saw his disgusting treatment of his ex-wife and his pathetic attempt to run for President. What could he do to retain attention? His creative solution should make all of us sick.
1
It isn't racist to point out facts. The facts are the violent crime rate for Blacks is 5x that of Whites, the murder rate 7x. If all you can is call someone racist who points to what is clearly a problem, who denies the problem, is part of the problem.
6
This editorial lacks an authentic tone. At least Mr. Giuliani speaks from his heart. This editorial seems to speak from a viewpoint that is neither original nor honest. As usual, the editorial board embraces any and all battle cries from the left -- even if what they embrace and disseminate is the same stuff that has contributed to the very problem we are now, once again, all facing.
5
Somehow I am getting the feeling that most of the people who are critical of Giuliani did not live in NYC during the pre- and post-Giuliani years. His four predecessors were the worst mayors ever, Koch and Lindsay especially, and drove the City down the tubes. He changed everything and made the city livable again.
8
Once again, the role played by a complicit media in these false equivalencies is ignored.
2
The truth is in your words: camouflaged but there. Yet the writer declares that the truth, that black on black violence is what kills most murdered blacks, is somehow a racist, right-wing talking point. It's not racist and it should be a point of emphasis for every caring person which, of course, no lefty is. The narrative is all that matters to them. And, the numerous black dead in Chicago aren't even worth a talking point.
2
I'm not sure of Rudi Giuliani shares a cave with Dick Cheney but his seems to re-surface every four years or so, timed not to the "lunar cycle" but to the "lunatic cycle" of trying to become noticed just in case a GOP/TP/KOCH AFFILIATE creation actually becomes "president".
Sadly, for Mr. Giuliani, every four years this bunch seems to serve up poorer and poorer candidates finally hitting the "bottom of the barrel" in this cycle with Mr. Trump.
But, just in case, he's READY and can you imagine him as "Attorney General"?
Sadly, for Mr. Giuliani, every four years this bunch seems to serve up poorer and poorer candidates finally hitting the "bottom of the barrel" in this cycle with Mr. Trump.
But, just in case, he's READY and can you imagine him as "Attorney General"?
3
In 2001 Rudolph Giuliani was America's mayor and even acting President for 24 hours on 9/11. Many of us living in the NYC area even wanted him to stay on as mayor past his expired term, because we had so much faith in him in those uneasy months. This is why it is so sad to see that he has evolved into an ultra right wing reactionary talking head.
1
Remember the anthems of the past? "We shall overcome" and "Black and white together some day"--? And people singing "Amazing Grace" as they marched. The civil rights movement then arose from the black churches and was led by the black preachers who were an inspiration for all. Right- minded people everywhere then joined the march and became part of the cause. That is how progress is made. Compare the nasty rhetoric of today's Black Lives Matter and the ignorance of its leaders who by their words and actions belie the words "civil rights movement" which is so loosely applied to them by the white members of the NYT editorial board who have lost all sense of history and reason.
5
Giuliani is obviously Trump lite (or dark). But he is probably right that there is a ghetto culture, a gangsta rap culture, that is equally bad as the gangsta cop culture. The editorial speaks of the gangs in Chicago and the brutal (gansta) cops. Well which came first the chicken or the egg? You need to acknowledge the truth and not romanticize the ghetto. And at the same time not (NOT) romanticize white bourgeois climate-destroying mainstream obese America either. Both sides have their virtues. Giuliani is a but unhinged, but not a stupid guy like Trump. (Please don't forget -- Giuliani eliminated the Mafia from New York. He was not just a wanna-be. Like Trump. He was the real deal. Look up Fulton Fish Market for example. And it didn't stop there,)
2
I saw Mr Giuliani speak on CBS on Sunday morning. It is outrageous that journalists allow people to speak falsehoods and with such deference. I was screaming at the tv for the host to interrupt or challenge the former mayor. This kind of speech simply reinforces the lies that some Americans tell themselves about the racial divide in this country.
4
Indeed. What better way to soothe America's simmering racial tensions than a patronizing lecture to American blacks? We were all quite lucky when this individual's presidential bid became non viable.
5
What about the NY Times' "racial myths" and "poisonous disinformation"? Notice how the Michael Brown incident is now dropped from the list of police shootings listed in the article. The same Michael Brown incident that was used by the BLM movement to start the "hands up, don't shoot" mantra. The same incident which was whipped into a frenzy on the front page of the NY Times until it became apparent that the police shooting of Michael Brown was justified. When I see the phrase "the divisiveness of race-baiting moralists" I don't think of Giuliani, I think of the leftist media.
11
Drugs and prostitution should be legalized. ALL drugs. Take away the reasons why gangs exist. That will fix the 'gang' problem.
Cops are racists (well every white cop I know is). This can stop by requiring all cops get a degree in social work.
Legalize drugs and make cops be social workers - this is how we progress.
Cops are racists (well every white cop I know is). This can stop by requiring all cops get a degree in social work.
Legalize drugs and make cops be social workers - this is how we progress.
Rudy Giuliani has long since failed to be relevant, yet the various media outlets persistently give him a platform to spout his nonsense, so that the NYT has to waste an editorial denouncing that fool. Why do we give him any attention?
1
Is anyone seriously listening to Adolf Ghouliani? This complete imbecile, not that long ago, figured out how to comb what's left of his hair...I'm sick of the complete lack of leadership from all our supposedly august institutions. Allowing the NRA to have it's way with our collective safety is simply criminal...
2
The NY Times, and others, refusal to address self destructive tendencies within the black community, resulting in their disproportionate struggles in American life, is like claiming smoking cigarettes has no side effects.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
7
Why would Guliani be comparing criminals to Police Officers ? Police Officers are hired to up hold the law and now they are behaving like legal criminals. I fail to see analogy, Clearly his racist view points is part of the problem. Guildani law firm earns millions from their investment in privatized prisons. Studies have show that privatized prisions treat prisioners inhumanely. Since we are the subject of Black on Black Crime, let's look at Mexican on Mexican crime. Let's go to Italy where the Mafia kill there own Italian people. Guilani is a racist and is suffering from associate dissociated he is trying to justified is racism with this twisted theory that this Black on Black Crime is the reason why Police Officer are killing Black men. Then Black on Black Crime must be the cause of racism. Associate Dissociated dates back to the 1800's when white people where committing crimes against humanity and behaving like animals, lyching and killing black people for the sport of it. I am so tired of society oppressing Black people and then make a living off of their despair. Let's talk about white collar crime where White people are stealing millions of tax preparers money and get a slap on the wrist. We are often forced in working enviorments where we experience systematic racism and are often abused . Last one hired and the first one fired. If that isn't bad enough we have to fear that we might be gun down execution style for a simple broken tail light.
Giuliani asks: “We wonder, do black lives matter, or only the very few black lives that are killed by white policemen?”
Given the thousands of preventable deaths each year in this country due to the out-of-control gun epidemic and a creaky health system, one could similarly ask: "We wonder, do American lives matter, or only the very few American lives that are taken by terrorists?"
Given the thousands of preventable deaths each year in this country due to the out-of-control gun epidemic and a creaky health system, one could similarly ask: "We wonder, do American lives matter, or only the very few American lives that are taken by terrorists?"
If police misconduct towards blacks is the problem (and a racial issue), what are the statistics on police misconduct towards whites? Are those reported or given any media attention?
2
When it comes to propagating myths and disinformation, Giuliani can’t hold a candle to the Times
Firstly, calling the killings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile “racialized violence” is deceptive, since there is no evidence that race played a role in any of this…until Micah Johnson admittedly went hunting for white folks
You ridicule the idea that black people should recognize and correct flaws in their own communities, then commend Chicagoans who march to end violence.
You blame violence in Chicago on joblessness and police harassment, but police didn’t create the joblessness, the politicians who ship jobs overseas did, and bad cops do not create violent neighborhoods, violent neighborhoods create bad cops. Keep blaming everything on cops and pretty soon we won't have any cops to blame.
You cite a few pics of protestors with police as evidence that BLM is not at war with cops, but don’t bother to mention the calls for violence by their supporters, or delightful protest chants like, “pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon”
You lambast Giuliani for saying that black on black crime is a far greater threat than cops - then admit it’s true - but add that whites tend to kill whites more frequently too!?
Of course police need better training and must be held responsible for unjustified actions, but that won't make black or white lives matter any more than they do now. Racism is as much a cause as it is a consequence, and ignoring that will never solve the problem.
Firstly, calling the killings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile “racialized violence” is deceptive, since there is no evidence that race played a role in any of this…until Micah Johnson admittedly went hunting for white folks
You ridicule the idea that black people should recognize and correct flaws in their own communities, then commend Chicagoans who march to end violence.
You blame violence in Chicago on joblessness and police harassment, but police didn’t create the joblessness, the politicians who ship jobs overseas did, and bad cops do not create violent neighborhoods, violent neighborhoods create bad cops. Keep blaming everything on cops and pretty soon we won't have any cops to blame.
You cite a few pics of protestors with police as evidence that BLM is not at war with cops, but don’t bother to mention the calls for violence by their supporters, or delightful protest chants like, “pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon”
You lambast Giuliani for saying that black on black crime is a far greater threat than cops - then admit it’s true - but add that whites tend to kill whites more frequently too!?
Of course police need better training and must be held responsible for unjustified actions, but that won't make black or white lives matter any more than they do now. Racism is as much a cause as it is a consequence, and ignoring that will never solve the problem.
9
So gangs and drugs are a big problem according to the NYT, but when Giuliani mentions them, they're not a problem somehow? Why do we always have to have "the" problem, rather than a more nuanced discussion about many problems?
There may be many facets to Giuliani, but keep in mind that under his administration violent crime in NYC fell by well over 50%. The main beneficiaries of this are black families, who can now raise children with much less fear.
When policing used to be truly racist, you would not even find many policemen in black neighborhoods, since they didn't see a point in investigating crime there. Now, just yesterday NYT published a careful study of recent police violence, and found some racial inequity in the more minor violence, but no racial differences in police shootings. The present is far from perfect, but much better than the past (and the NYC present is a great deal better than the pre-Giuliani past).
There may be many facets to Giuliani, but keep in mind that under his administration violent crime in NYC fell by well over 50%. The main beneficiaries of this are black families, who can now raise children with much less fear.
When policing used to be truly racist, you would not even find many policemen in black neighborhoods, since they didn't see a point in investigating crime there. Now, just yesterday NYT published a careful study of recent police violence, and found some racial inequity in the more minor violence, but no racial differences in police shootings. The present is far from perfect, but much better than the past (and the NYC present is a great deal better than the pre-Giuliani past).
8
I remember well Mayor Guiliani choking on his words when, after nearly two weeks of daily protest at One Police Plaza, he tried to express some "sorrow" about the situation. He could not hide his natural sarcasm toward communities of color when they were victimized by the police. He and his police commissioner Howard Safir felt that the death of an African immigrant street vendor was just a minor issue. Safir actually flew to California to attend the Oscars while hundreds of people were performing civil disobedience outside his headquarters. This is exactly why the slogan of "Black Lives Matter" needs to be said and repeated, because they don't matter to some in power.
2
I watched Mr. Giuliani on Face the Nation this past Sunday.
He was a driven man and did not stop till he had his viewpoint stated.
Some of his comments have merit.
But he fails to recognize the FEAR that is prevalent in the Black community.
I'm white and until recently i was not fully aware of the environment of body and mind that white culture has put Black Americans in.
Both sides have valid issues but until the blame stops and a conversation begins, we will not become whole.
He was a driven man and did not stop till he had his viewpoint stated.
Some of his comments have merit.
But he fails to recognize the FEAR that is prevalent in the Black community.
I'm white and until recently i was not fully aware of the environment of body and mind that white culture has put Black Americans in.
Both sides have valid issues but until the blame stops and a conversation begins, we will not become whole.
Rudy Giuliani has financial reasons to keep America racially divided. Fact is, he only pops up when the opportunity to point a finger at Black America arises. The Giullianis of the world will never look in the mirror and admit part of the problem may exist with themselves and their way of thinking. Furthermore, White privilege and feeling of entitlement is a disease difficult to eradicate and accept as being real.
2
The idea of [skincolor]-on-[skincolor] crime is simply ignorant of reality. Most murders are committed by people who know the victim personally. These cases often manifest when the killing efficiency of a gun meets the volatile conditions of an unfaithful spouse, an alcohol-infused argument, or a drug-related dispute.
Speaking of drug killings, it is not unreasonable to expect that people in the same gang selling the same drugs would also share the same skin color, whether they are blacks selling crack or whites selling meth. The illegal nature of the drug trade means you cannot call the police when someone has robbed you of your supply, and for people who otherwise have no source of income, there is plenty of incentive to kill to get what was taken from you, or at least kill to prevent yourself from becoming a target if those who stole from you fear that you may snitch.
This country makes obtaining firearms alarmingly easy, and so the murder rate should not be a surprise, but we should not kid ourselves into thinking this is about types of people, rather than the environment that they are in.
Speaking of drug killings, it is not unreasonable to expect that people in the same gang selling the same drugs would also share the same skin color, whether they are blacks selling crack or whites selling meth. The illegal nature of the drug trade means you cannot call the police when someone has robbed you of your supply, and for people who otherwise have no source of income, there is plenty of incentive to kill to get what was taken from you, or at least kill to prevent yourself from becoming a target if those who stole from you fear that you may snitch.
This country makes obtaining firearms alarmingly easy, and so the murder rate should not be a surprise, but we should not kid ourselves into thinking this is about types of people, rather than the environment that they are in.
1
The more basic question is Why are people (including policemen, even black policemen) so afraid of black men? Then add "with a gun" or even "suspected of having a gun"? Surely there are 20 ways to avoid a deadly confrontation, ways the police should be teaching perhaps instead of target practice. That said, I see dangerous times ahead with the "Huey P Newton gun club" if, as Breitbart claims, there is such a thing among black militants. This way lies armed conflict.
Let let's not forget, before Rudy was a celebrity war profiteer, he was a racist authoritarian. I guess he's reverting back to form.
1
We New Yorkers are well acquainted with Giuliani's racist rhetoric. When Giuliani was mayor, the clarion call coming from the NYPD was, "It's Giuliani time". It was open season in NYC on shoot first ask questions later, head-cracking and billy club sodomy aggressive police tactics.
The problem with Giuliani's skewed thinking is that he always defended the police even when they were wrong, and always blamed the victim even when they were innocent. Giuliani's bias has been well-documented. The drop in the crime rate credit goes to his police chief but in typical egotistical Giuliani fashion he had to have all the applause.
The inherent problem with Giuliani is what affects many White men his age. They are outraged when accused of racism. They cannot see how blatantly harmful and divisive their remarks are. Donald Trump is a perfect companion to Giuliani. They are two peas in the pod. They share their racist views and are so ignorant of how incendiary and racist their statements are they cannot fathom the notion that their incendiary rhetoric is that of a racist. They are that truly that dumb.
DD
Manhattan
The problem with Giuliani's skewed thinking is that he always defended the police even when they were wrong, and always blamed the victim even when they were innocent. Giuliani's bias has been well-documented. The drop in the crime rate credit goes to his police chief but in typical egotistical Giuliani fashion he had to have all the applause.
The inherent problem with Giuliani is what affects many White men his age. They are outraged when accused of racism. They cannot see how blatantly harmful and divisive their remarks are. Donald Trump is a perfect companion to Giuliani. They are two peas in the pod. They share their racist views and are so ignorant of how incendiary and racist their statements are they cannot fathom the notion that their incendiary rhetoric is that of a racist. They are that truly that dumb.
DD
Manhattan
3
"Mr. Giuliani’s garbled, fictional statistic echoes a common right-wing talking point about the prevalence of “black on black” violence in America."
According to politifact, for the last five years an average of 91.4 percent of homicides involving a black person as a victim were commited by a black person. The total number of police shootings that involve a white officer and an unarmed black man, defined here as anyone not actively resisting arrest, are 4% of the number of police shootings in this country. Oh wait, it's actually 4% of all police shooting fatalities. While one innocent is too many, constantly accusing the other side of arguing in bad faith, and especially of race baiting when the issue of crime in any community is of valid discussion, is every bit as divisive as what you accuse Giuliani of
According to politifact, for the last five years an average of 91.4 percent of homicides involving a black person as a victim were commited by a black person. The total number of police shootings that involve a white officer and an unarmed black man, defined here as anyone not actively resisting arrest, are 4% of the number of police shootings in this country. Oh wait, it's actually 4% of all police shooting fatalities. While one innocent is too many, constantly accusing the other side of arguing in bad faith, and especially of race baiting when the issue of crime in any community is of valid discussion, is every bit as divisive as what you accuse Giuliani of
3
Giuliani's appearance on TV this past Sunday was stupefying in its ignorance, condescension and unabashed racism. Chicago has a gang problem so police are allowed to kill innocent citizens? It would be one thing if it were one irrelevant old man just flying off the handle, but half the country agrees with him. Which is precisely why things will never get better.
3
Two interesting facts omitted from this article--and obviously from the NYT editorial board's logic: you fail even to allude to the new study by the Clark Medal winning economist at Harvard that clearly shows blacks are shot no more frequently than whites. Basically, you use the same logic as the canard from the 1960s that blacks were being killed far more often than whites in Viet Nam--an outright lie that was totally disproven. And you don't mention the young gentleman in Ferguson, MO, who was shot by a policeman. Of course, he had just robbed a convenience store and was found by Obama's Dept of Justice to have assaulted the police officer.
5
Rudy Giuliani and his policies saved thousands of black lives. The policies that the New York Times supports gets thousands of black lives killed. Black Lives Matter is based on lies and is causing more suffering in the communities it ostensibly supports. Any disinterested person would conclude that Giuliani cares about black lives a lot more than the NYT and BLM.
2
It is an inconvenient truth that the levels of black on black violence Giuliani cites are in fact true. You cannot honestly separate the extreme levels of black crime from the negative encounters with police. You can avoid saying it by relabeling the problem on gang members, but of course those gang members are black.
The link below is Mayor Bill DeBlasio’s police report on crime by race for the year 2015, read the report and then tell us all about what a racist Bill DeBlasio is.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year_en...
The link below is Mayor Bill DeBlasio’s police report on crime by race for the year 2015, read the report and then tell us all about what a racist Bill DeBlasio is.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year_en...
5
The false equivalence you complain about is all on your side. Take off the rose colored glasses. Crime exploded under the benevolent liberal Lindsay administration It was turned back under Giuliani.
5
If not for the Constitutional prohibition that a candidate for POTUS and a candidate for VP may not come from the same state, Trump/Giuliani would be an appropriately toxic pair for the Republicans.
1
Thank You.
Giuliani is a Republican politician, right? Enough said.
Seems like the NY Times is the one peddling the myths.. NYC was a true shi..hole under Dinkins and the murder was sky high .. Hookers on Park Ave as well as Bowery.. Maybe the times likes it that way...
4
The article says "Alton Sterling, in Baton Rouge, and Philando Castile, in a St. Paul suburb, were posing no threat when they were shot." May be true but how can your reporter possibly know that? The rush to judgment of police is appalling... and often wrong. Ferguson, MO for example where even the Obama justice department couldn't find a case to prosecute against the policeman. Baltimore where all defendants tried so far have been exonerated (including a black officer). Meanwhile crimes are increasing in cities where the police have been discouraged and black deaths are soaring. But somehow this doesn't matter to "black lives matter" or, apparently, the NYT.
1
Why do we insist on interviewing and allowing this man to foul our public discourse? It would be so easy and better for us all if we just ignored him. We know what he is going to say and many of us are sick and tired of his sick and tired "opinion/expertise. Go away Rudy!! Just go away!!
1
This editorial does an admirable job of picking apart Giuliani's ignorant, racist rhetoric. The question is: why did the NYT cover his Sunday talk show appearance as if it was important and newsworthy? Who cares what an angry old "loser" like Guiliani says about anything? Is the NYT just trying to rake in eyeballs to justify advertising rates? Your reckless indulgence of this pathetic partisan clown undermines earnest citizens attempt to inform themselves about the issues.
The NYTs editorial board seems to have the luxury of choosing which myth it want to put forth as reality & which one it prefers to ridicule. Unfortunately in this case it seems to have gotten it all wrong.
Mr. Giuliani is largely right in this case. Black on black violent crime eclipses the occasional (see Harvard professor Fryer's study reported in today's NYTs) regrettable over-reaction by white police officers on blacks). The anti-social behavior of young black males is widespread (yes Michael Brown was an unarmed HUGE black teenager, fleeing from a robbery who charged a police officer trying to wrest his weapon from him)
Mr. Giuliani is largely right in this case. Black on black violent crime eclipses the occasional (see Harvard professor Fryer's study reported in today's NYTs) regrettable over-reaction by white police officers on blacks). The anti-social behavior of young black males is widespread (yes Michael Brown was an unarmed HUGE black teenager, fleeing from a robbery who charged a police officer trying to wrest his weapon from him)
7
Rudy Giuliani is so on point that people just can't face the truth. No accountability. Where is BLM when fifty people are shot in Chicago over a weekend? All black on black crime. Nowhere but they want to use race when there's a police involved shooting. Those lives I guess don't matter in Chicago. Hypocrisy at its finest!
7
How do you pivot from Rudy Guliani to a presumptuous indictment of segregation in Chicago? Talk about deflection.
I grew up in Chicago and lived in NY. Your short, oversimplified call out is not worthy of the normally thoughtful and thorough writing that draws me to these pages.
I grew up in Chicago and lived in NY. Your short, oversimplified call out is not worthy of the normally thoughtful and thorough writing that draws me to these pages.
1
Mayor Rudy, of course, is not peddling "racial myths" but hard truths, as detailed by Heather MacDonald. Just like the Peter Schweizer book on Clinton Cash, when the Left can't refute the reality they resort to ad hominem attacks on authors and their amplifiers. The same is true of how the Cosmopolitan Establishment treats dissenters from accelerating global warming orthodoxy, authors critical of Obama foreign policies in so many pesky details, and so on.
It is the NYT ed board that is circling the wagons to protect the precious urban legends of the Left. Another institution that is crumbling is the long-running ability of the mainstream media to simply stonewall and never, ever mention all facts and points of view that do not contribute to electing Democrats.
It is the NYT ed board that is circling the wagons to protect the precious urban legends of the Left. Another institution that is crumbling is the long-running ability of the mainstream media to simply stonewall and never, ever mention all facts and points of view that do not contribute to electing Democrats.
2
Here is the problem and the question that MUST be answered in order for white society at large (not just the left reading this paper) to accept even some of the premises of the black lives matter movement (even though racial bias in cop killings was exposed as a lie by the NYT yesterday on its front page):
“is how and what they are doing among themselves about the crime problem in the black community.” He added, “We wonder, do black lives matter, or only the very few black lives that are killed by white policemen?”
So long as the left scorns, trivializes, mocks and refuses to even entertain the question posed above, the average middle of the road and independent white voter will continue to switch off when confronted by BLM rhetoric because anyone who can read knows, in fact, that there has been a 70+% rise in inner city Chicago murders this year, hundreds of blacks dead at this point.
The left must explain this inconvenient truth before selling the American public on the sole problem being a white cop with a gun.
“is how and what they are doing among themselves about the crime problem in the black community.” He added, “We wonder, do black lives matter, or only the very few black lives that are killed by white policemen?”
So long as the left scorns, trivializes, mocks and refuses to even entertain the question posed above, the average middle of the road and independent white voter will continue to switch off when confronted by BLM rhetoric because anyone who can read knows, in fact, that there has been a 70+% rise in inner city Chicago murders this year, hundreds of blacks dead at this point.
The left must explain this inconvenient truth before selling the American public on the sole problem being a white cop with a gun.
6
The Editorial Board is right to call Giuliani out for his crude comments. But the lame conclusion of the editorial, with its vain hope that Americans will somehow "pull together" and that the violence may eventually lead to harmony and understanding, seems downright Pollyannaish. Sadly, the country is not merely on the verge, it is already caught up in the deadly opening salvos of a race and class war that is certain to pull us further apart.
Rudy Giuliani has built a larger-than-life persona as get tough on crime narrow minded prosecutor and politician.
US Attorney for the Southern District, Giuliani’s 4,152 convictions (against only 25 reversals) distinguish him as one of the most effective U.S. Attorneys in American history.
HOWEVER as a U.S. Attorney, Giuliani began to develop his reputation as a publicity seeker, publicly handcuffing mob bosses and business leaders on trumped up charges only to quietly drop the charges later.
Loved that perp walk!
Loretta Lynch, the US Attorney for the Eastern District went after mob bosses, and police corruption quietly, but extremely effectively.
Giuliani ran NYC as mayor seeking to end crime and came down heavy on African-Americans initiating “Stop and Frisk”, then arrested and convict them as his top job. He “happened” to be mayor during 9/11 and loved the limelight..he STILL brings up 9/11 15 years later.
Now he runs Giuliani Security & Safety, a full-service security, investigative and crisis management consulting firm in 63 countries. Turning 9/11 into a career.
He has no REAL police and security background. Yet Fox News uses him as an “expert” on policing... blacks--as if blacks are inherently all criminals--including Barack Obama. He’s an egotistical racist unable to understand peaceful protest, a never ending apologist for EVERY person who wears an NYPD uniform. They can do NO harm, so it MUST be blacks who instigate all problems.
Such a small man.
US Attorney for the Southern District, Giuliani’s 4,152 convictions (against only 25 reversals) distinguish him as one of the most effective U.S. Attorneys in American history.
HOWEVER as a U.S. Attorney, Giuliani began to develop his reputation as a publicity seeker, publicly handcuffing mob bosses and business leaders on trumped up charges only to quietly drop the charges later.
Loved that perp walk!
Loretta Lynch, the US Attorney for the Eastern District went after mob bosses, and police corruption quietly, but extremely effectively.
Giuliani ran NYC as mayor seeking to end crime and came down heavy on African-Americans initiating “Stop and Frisk”, then arrested and convict them as his top job. He “happened” to be mayor during 9/11 and loved the limelight..he STILL brings up 9/11 15 years later.
Now he runs Giuliani Security & Safety, a full-service security, investigative and crisis management consulting firm in 63 countries. Turning 9/11 into a career.
He has no REAL police and security background. Yet Fox News uses him as an “expert” on policing... blacks--as if blacks are inherently all criminals--including Barack Obama. He’s an egotistical racist unable to understand peaceful protest, a never ending apologist for EVERY person who wears an NYPD uniform. They can do NO harm, so it MUST be blacks who instigate all problems.
Such a small man.
3
Everytime Rudy Giuliani shoots off his big mouth, it's always "black this, black that, the black people, black, black, black, black, black. Guess he didn't get the memo that white people have absolutely no moral authority to lecture African-Americans about anything.
2
Thank you for stating explicitly what needs to be said. Watching Giuliani Sunday morning on Face the Nation - whose poisonous spew of racial hatred is in no way a justified or acceptable form of civil discourse - made me heartsick.
I agree almost 100% with Mr. Giuliani, but that is far from the end of the story
IMHO, he isn't CHANGING the story, he is clarifying it
1) "Most" of the black people killed in these police situations, triggered the situations that spun out of control, and if they would have acted the way that "I" would act, the horrible endings wouldn't have occurred
** Even the Feds agree with the Grand Jury that Michael Brown caused his own death, and that many witnesses were giving false testimony
** Eric Garner triggered his own situation when he told the police that they 'weren't going to take him in custody'. Even then, he didn't die from the choke hold, he died afterwards when he was conscious on the ground handcuffed, because of his other health problems
{{ I got harassed by the police a lot when I was younger, but I never, ever gave them any reason to mistreat me any worse than they were already going to do}}
2) To be clear, ANY case where people are harmed or killed by the police through their misbehavior is wrong, and we should work VERY hard to eliminate as many of those cases as possible, but it will never be ZERO
One thing we should never consider IMHO is anything along the lines of some of the radical de-escalation theme, where almost every encounter will turn into a debate, a battle-of-wits, or a test of will
3) First, every encounter needs to start with some kind of record given as to 'why' you are being stopped. In a cop car it would be a printed card with an incident#
IMHO, he isn't CHANGING the story, he is clarifying it
1) "Most" of the black people killed in these police situations, triggered the situations that spun out of control, and if they would have acted the way that "I" would act, the horrible endings wouldn't have occurred
** Even the Feds agree with the Grand Jury that Michael Brown caused his own death, and that many witnesses were giving false testimony
** Eric Garner triggered his own situation when he told the police that they 'weren't going to take him in custody'. Even then, he didn't die from the choke hold, he died afterwards when he was conscious on the ground handcuffed, because of his other health problems
{{ I got harassed by the police a lot when I was younger, but I never, ever gave them any reason to mistreat me any worse than they were already going to do}}
2) To be clear, ANY case where people are harmed or killed by the police through their misbehavior is wrong, and we should work VERY hard to eliminate as many of those cases as possible, but it will never be ZERO
One thing we should never consider IMHO is anything along the lines of some of the radical de-escalation theme, where almost every encounter will turn into a debate, a battle-of-wits, or a test of will
3) First, every encounter needs to start with some kind of record given as to 'why' you are being stopped. In a cop car it would be a printed card with an incident#
1
Of course, instead of a racially named black power group like Black Lives Matter which has caused more violence from blacks and division within our culture, Giuliani is calling out for what works and that is deep cultural changes within the black thinking and acting.
Bottom line in our society we need to teach and teach the value of respect for all authority and each other. If we respect every person we encounter we will succeed in life amid our democratic society. Blacks need to understand the system is absolutely not racially built to hurt them. The system is built to give fairness to everyone. Teach whites and blacks to respond to police with, 'yes sir'. You cannot have a civil communique with anyone who is resisting. Just look at what happened to Michael Moore when he not only resisted but tried to attack the policeman and take his gun. Michael Moore was a thug. We need to teach our black and white children to NEVER resist authority.
Giuliani helped New York black neighborhoods rid themselves of violence and crime. He lessened their numbers.
Bottom line in our society we need to teach and teach the value of respect for all authority and each other. If we respect every person we encounter we will succeed in life amid our democratic society. Blacks need to understand the system is absolutely not racially built to hurt them. The system is built to give fairness to everyone. Teach whites and blacks to respond to police with, 'yes sir'. You cannot have a civil communique with anyone who is resisting. Just look at what happened to Michael Moore when he not only resisted but tried to attack the policeman and take his gun. Michael Moore was a thug. We need to teach our black and white children to NEVER resist authority.
Giuliani helped New York black neighborhoods rid themselves of violence and crime. He lessened their numbers.
4
Hard to understand why the "news media" still promotes Rudolph Phonioni. This guy has used the media for self promotion and to enrich his business interests. How can he be taken seriously enough to even bother editorializing about? Phonioni will finally disappear and stop spewing his hatred and lies as soon as we all ignore him.
Giuliani seems to the forever no-memory idiot... He forgot to mention Abner Louima, who was tortured by white police officers under Giuliany term as a mayor.... He actually never apologized for that... He is as blind as white.
3
Giuliani is a great manager but not a leader. Personally he seems very conflicted. The latest police shootings, as victim or villain, is an opportunity to make America "Greater" by storing trust between all Americans and the police. Giuliani's latest comments reinforces division and mistrust in the public sphere.
With such comments he tries to appeal to Trump opportunism. With "anything goes" message, republicans have lost their heart and mind.
With such comments he tries to appeal to Trump opportunism. With "anything goes" message, republicans have lost their heart and mind.
This whole line of argument by Mr. Giuliani and his ilk is nonsensical and offensive.
White people in this country also kill each other at high rates (certainly compared to other Western democracies). Would any police shooting of an unarmed white person be justified by saying, “Well, white people kill each other a lot, so until they stop doing that, it’s okay for police to shoot unarmed white people”?
The basic premise is that black people have to clean up their act in order to expect the government not to shoot them. That they have to do something to EARN their right not to be killed by an arm of the government, when white people can just expect that they won’t be shot or killed by law enforcement regardless of what their fellow whites do. Whites are automatically just granted that right – they don’t need to do anything extra to be treated as full citizens.
And why are black people who do not commit crimes being held accountable for those who do? I'm white and I live in Upstate New York. No one says it's okay for the police to harass, injure or shoot me because there is a heroin problem and resulting crime in predominantly white, rural Vermont. And no one says it's okay for the police to do that because I haven't done enough to clean up the crime in my own racial group. Why should only blacks have collective guilt applied to them, and on top of that, to be mutilated or killed because of it?
White people in this country also kill each other at high rates (certainly compared to other Western democracies). Would any police shooting of an unarmed white person be justified by saying, “Well, white people kill each other a lot, so until they stop doing that, it’s okay for police to shoot unarmed white people”?
The basic premise is that black people have to clean up their act in order to expect the government not to shoot them. That they have to do something to EARN their right not to be killed by an arm of the government, when white people can just expect that they won’t be shot or killed by law enforcement regardless of what their fellow whites do. Whites are automatically just granted that right – they don’t need to do anything extra to be treated as full citizens.
And why are black people who do not commit crimes being held accountable for those who do? I'm white and I live in Upstate New York. No one says it's okay for the police to harass, injure or shoot me because there is a heroin problem and resulting crime in predominantly white, rural Vermont. And no one says it's okay for the police to do that because I haven't done enough to clean up the crime in my own racial group. Why should only blacks have collective guilt applied to them, and on top of that, to be mutilated or killed because of it?
2
He is auditioning for Attorney General of the Trump administration.
3
It's not just Rudy Giuliani. In this same issue of the NY Times, an editorial claims that white evangelicals favor Donald Trump because they view him as being overtly and openly racist. What ever happened to Christian values? Have they forgotten the story of the Good Samaritan, where compassion for humanity is more precious and moral than tribalism?
I lived in New York City when Giuliani was Mayor. His authoritarian personality has grown far, far worse. At the time, he wanted to "clean up" (expunge, persecute, imprison) anything he deemed inappropriate, "immoral" or unusual. He is and was a moral puritan, which means that he excuses his own hypocrisy (lies, infidelity, and corruption) while accusing others of it. Even then, he was a paranoid figure and a zealot. He used 9/11 to bolster his demagoguery. The man is pathetic. I remember clearly how he used a tank (or tank-like vehicle) to expel squatters in the Lower East Side. He fancies himself a kind of Mussolina and Putin-esque figure. If you look closely at his face, his grimace and his eyes, you can see the hate. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/31/nyregion/riot-police-remove-31-squatte...
1
Dont white lives also matter? More white people are killed by police than blacks. Granting there re more white people than black, it seams to me that th e problem is whether these killings, white and black, were justified, and not whether the victims were black or white.
As for the advise of Guiiliani to obey officers request and not "strand up to the cops", it does seem reasonable.
If any officer, black or white, stops you because you have run a light ,or any other reason, and ask for your registration, etc, why should you refuse, and when pulled out of the car ( it may be stolen, you may be a felon) why resist and put up a fight, whether you are black or whiter?
As for the advise of Guiiliani to obey officers request and not "strand up to the cops", it does seem reasonable.
If any officer, black or white, stops you because you have run a light ,or any other reason, and ask for your registration, etc, why should you refuse, and when pulled out of the car ( it may be stolen, you may be a felon) why resist and put up a fight, whether you are black or whiter?
1
Let us stop pointing fingers at everybody else for this situation that we are in. Let us remember that "respect is earned not demanded"
1
Guiliani makes Donald Trump look like an empathetic champion of minorities.
I cringed when I heard Guilani's interview. He is so tone deaf on racial matters. I believe there are some radicals who associate themselves with Black Lives Matter but most just want to have their voices heard. It reminds me of the Civil Rights era. Black Lives Matter is protesting their treatment and many whites are not listening. The Dallas march was not against police. It was against police brutality. To know that, all you had to do was watch the police interaction with the protesters. This Southern, white woman who grew up in the 1950s and 1960s is listening and I hope others will very soon!
9
Blatantly biased and indeed racist editorials like this is why I refuse to subscribe to the nyt. Rudy is right and Obama is irresponsible, besides being a race baiter.
For Obama not to support police officers and recognize how blm is based on false assumptions is going to lead to a lot more violent crime. The police are frozen because of being undermined by the President. They are just sitting on the sidelines right now. The criminals know this. The victims will be everyone.
For Obama not to support police officers and recognize how blm is based on false assumptions is going to lead to a lot more violent crime. The police are frozen because of being undermined by the President. They are just sitting on the sidelines right now. The criminals know this. The victims will be everyone.
3
Why does it even matter who kills who? The point is, too many people are dying. They are slaughtered by the thousands every year in America. What difference does it make what color they are? Why are the statistics even reported according to race? The numbers should just tell us how many people have been murdered. That's all that matters, and that's what has to be dealt with. Victims are the same, regardless of color. They are all dead.
1
Giuliani asserts that the Black Lives Matter movement is "racist" simply because it has "Black" in it's title.
It's amazing to me how people like Giuliani, who are essentially overt in their racism but present it like they are "speaking the truth", shamelessly turn around their own hatreds and prejudices and blame a group who is simply trying to be heard.
He is a despicable human being.
It's amazing to me how people like Giuliani, who are essentially overt in their racism but present it like they are "speaking the truth", shamelessly turn around their own hatreds and prejudices and blame a group who is simply trying to be heard.
He is a despicable human being.
3
Rudy Giuliani is merely reflecting the opinions of millions of Americans. It's sickening, but the average American who plans to vote for Donald Trump sees black America as Welfare addicted drug addicts who only get ahead by cheating through affirmative action. "What are the blacks complaining about," these Trump loving Americans will say, "they've been free since the end of the Civil War". And if you call them racists, they'll tell you they have black friends. The problem is hatred. And it's been in America since the first slaves were brought here in the early 17th Century. Many, if not most of these hate-filled Americans call themselves Christians. Because, you know, Jesus was all about hating on people. Before the Civil War, churches in the South hired pastors who held their belief that slavery was moral. We are a far more equal country today than we were in 1865, but millions of Americans believe that said equality came at an unfair price to them. These people are not all trailer dwellers. They're often highly educated. Hatred isn't about ignorance, it's about fear. And that's inside people.
5
Giuliani is a joke. A bad one. Police departments in America have utterly failed the black community. When a black person is murdered or a black person victimized the police response is often underwhelming, although I think that police generally don't move mountains to help poor victims regardless of race. Couple that with the fact that the police in many cities routinely arrest people of color for stuff they'd never arrest a middle class white person for, that often interactions with the police end in violence towards the person of color, and you begin to understand what black communities are going through all over America. BLM is not racist. BLM is a clarion call for all America to wake up to the fact that everyday in America police abuse the citizens they are supposed to be protecting. The police are a much bigger danger to any US citizen than ISIS is. Every encounter with the police can end in your death, even if you're doing exactly what they say. I'd love to see Guiliani go to a place where he is always viewed with suspicion, where the authorities believe he is more dangerous and prone to violence than people who look like the authorities, where he could be laying on the ground, in handcuffs, and still be shot, where compliance with the authorities can still mean death, where selling cigarettes or not paying child support are death penalty offenses, and where none of the authorities are held accountable. After he spends a few years there, he can comment.
7
If only fantasies could come true. If only Giuliani would wake up some morning, look in the mirror and find out he was now a black man in the USA. Even if only temporary, a matter of days, his regressive, racist opinions would quickly vanish. He would change his tune faster than Trump changes positions. If only...
1
Giuliani is racist. But black people are not powerless. Even the NY Times is rushing to judgement. There need to be open hearings and the evidence of what happened made public. There are videos. They should be made public. The police are hiding evidence as their officers are suspected of using excessive force. The way we deescalate this and cool everyone down is, they quit hiding the videos that actually show what happened. This is how they are wrong at this moment. It's smells of them standing with cops who have messed up. But make no mistake, we do have a crisis of black parenting in America, of older black people who are failing young black people. There is no struggle against "bad policemen." The only equivalency you find in black American history are the original Black Panthers. Ever since they went into Southern California streets with guns to intimidate the police, blacks have been going backwards in America. It was stupid. They lied and said they were following Malcolm. They couldn't have been more wrong. Ninety percent of the black struggle today is black kids in the classroom. Sadly, the majority of black parents watch their kids dump school, go in the streets with foolishness and then stand by them (like the cops circle around the bad cops) and try to shield them and hide them from the wrong they are doing. We have this coverup mentality going on all around us. Get the videos out and black people, quit pretending getting shot by the police makes you an angel.
So tired of RG trying desperately to spread his unique brand of senility.
3
Rudy's been a joke for years. He propagates the myth that HE kept NYC safe on 9/11, when in fact, he did NOT stop a single terrorist attack on that date.
He attempts to milk his 'fame' while spewing racial and political hatred at every turn. How he was ever put into a position of authority is mind boggling.
He attempts to milk his 'fame' while spewing racial and political hatred at every turn. How he was ever put into a position of authority is mind boggling.
3
You might mention the chanting by BLM protesters of "we want dead cops" right before the murder of the two police officers in New York.
7
Perspective: On average, 4,472 black men were killed by other black men annually between Jan. 1, 2009, and Dec. 31, 2012, according to the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports. Using FBI and CDC statistics, Professor Johnson calculates that 112 black men, on average, suffered both justified and unjustified police-involved deaths annually during this period.
1
The biggest and most dangerous untruth is the lie that police departments are staffed primarily with white racist police who are daily looking to kill some poor black guy. That is the fiction that BLM and to a large extent these pages are peddling. That lie is what led directly to Dallas, and other anti-police acts. Those perpetrating that fiction should be held accountable as it is radicalizing young blacks and could lead to more domestic terrorism.
3
I'm white. Several years ago, I became enraged by a parking ticket I found on my car. I marched into our Carrol Gardens neighborhood precinct, and screamed at the first officer who crossed my path....and screamed....nose to nose....gesticulating wildly for what must have been well over a minute (which, in this context, is a very long time). I was so angry that it is surprising that I didn't shove the officer. And he....listened and calmed me down. To this day, I'm grateful to that officer for his maturity and generosity of spirit. He saved me, at the least, a night in jail.
I'm certain, however, that the outcome would have been very different if I were an enraged black man screaming at a cop from inches away.
I'm certain, however, that the outcome would have been very different if I were an enraged black man screaming at a cop from inches away.
4
Giuliani, in my opinion, started this roughing up of black people when as mayor of the greatest city in the world, had his cops mistreating minorities. I will never forget what the cops did to Diallo an unarmed immigrant walking home when his cops fired about 40 bullets into him right in front of his home. New York city was never this kind of city until Giuliani became mayor.
3
The former Mayor needs to get off TV and go play a round of golf with his kid. We no longer need to listen to his point of view. It is wrong and not relevant.
1
Not all Republicans think like Giuliani. Marco Rubio gave a wise and compassionate speech the other day; here's a sample - "“Confront it by acknowledging the truth that despite decades of progress on many fronts, millions of our fellow Americans feel that they are treated differently because of the color of their skin. And after seeing videos like the one this week, they are scared that the next time they get pulled over one wrong move could be the last thing they do."
The American racial reality is that of the 33,000 Americans who die from gun shot every year that nearly 2/3rds are suicides. With 79% of the 77% of white Americans who kill themselves being male. And 95% of the 19% of white Americans who die from homicide are killed by white Americans. About 84% of black Americans who die by gun shot are the victims of homicide with 95% of the killers being black. Black suicide by gun shot involves 14% of the deaths.
Most American crime involves members of the same racially colored socioeconomic educational caste. Over the last 20+ years all types of crime have been dropping dramatically in America including homicide. The average number of cops killed in America each year has been lower in the Obama era than any other Presidential administration since President Ford.
Micah Xavier Johnson was a military veteran like Lee Harvey Oswald, Charles Joseph Whitman and Timothy James McVeigh. Other than his being colored "black" and they being "white" that factor and their actions may be the most salient ties that bind them together. Being a member of the one and only biological DNA genetic evolutionary human race is the truth that must be faced. Whether they were cruel, craven, crazy or criminal they all belonged to the human race.
Most American crime involves members of the same racially colored socioeconomic educational caste. Over the last 20+ years all types of crime have been dropping dramatically in America including homicide. The average number of cops killed in America each year has been lower in the Obama era than any other Presidential administration since President Ford.
Micah Xavier Johnson was a military veteran like Lee Harvey Oswald, Charles Joseph Whitman and Timothy James McVeigh. Other than his being colored "black" and they being "white" that factor and their actions may be the most salient ties that bind them together. Being a member of the one and only biological DNA genetic evolutionary human race is the truth that must be faced. Whether they were cruel, craven, crazy or criminal they all belonged to the human race.
2
Giuliani is a racist - no more, no less. He also profits from fear and terrorism, through his security business. The NY Times and everyone else should ignore him. The issue is that for people like him, no police action is ever questionable or improper. Shoot a 12 year old with a toy gun, without provocation and on video, and perpetrated by a cop who was dismissed from another force for use of his gun? Don't second-guess the cops, who have to make a split-second decision. Shoot a guy walking away a bunch of times in front of a dozen other cops who were calmly just watching him? Please. Until the police & their supporters are willing to admit that some amongst them are wrong or racist or trigger-happy, the actions of the even good cops will come into question.
6
To observe Rudy Giuliani spewing poison on national television is repulsive, his inner rot exposed on an aging, sneering countenance. His words, his intent is clear, there is no value in putting him in the public sphere. Would that the media had an ounce of integrity and not give megaphones to inciters of hate. His words were as predictable as the sun rising in the east.
3
Mr. Giuliani said far more than what the editorial reported. In these times, statements like those made by Mr. Giuliani, even as they are based on his experience and knowledge of the subject, do not change the balance of the debate, because those who do not agree with him ideologically will dismiss what he has to say.
Likewise, the editorial blasting Mr. Giuliani does not change the balance of the debate, because those who do not agree with the editorial page's ideology will dismiss the editorial. The net change as a result of the dialogue between Mr. Giuliani and the Times is zero.
Still, the Times’ editorial may have missed an opportunity to foment some rethinking. The editorial could have mentioned the study reported in the Times yesterday. That study conducted by a Black Harvard economist found, contrary to what he initially believed, that there is no difference based on race, when the issue is police shooting. The study did find that Blacks are more likely to experience the use of non-lethal police force.
Likewise, the editorial blasting Mr. Giuliani does not change the balance of the debate, because those who do not agree with the editorial page's ideology will dismiss the editorial. The net change as a result of the dialogue between Mr. Giuliani and the Times is zero.
Still, the Times’ editorial may have missed an opportunity to foment some rethinking. The editorial could have mentioned the study reported in the Times yesterday. That study conducted by a Black Harvard economist found, contrary to what he initially believed, that there is no difference based on race, when the issue is police shooting. The study did find that Blacks are more likely to experience the use of non-lethal police force.
1
Wow, only in the US, where everything can become a commodity, can a man like Giuliani make money on his bigotry. At one point, demagogues used to want power, now they want money. Societal problems? What does it have to do with me and my profits? The foxnewsing of America.
3
Thank goodness for the editorial board of the NYT to sort everything out. If not for the board, I would not know how to feel, think, or even tie my own shoes for that matter. Thank you!
Rudy "9/11" Giuliani made a fortune milking 9/11 for everything it was worth in his security consulting business. I was hoping that Trump would choose Rudy as his VP running mate---guaranteeing his defeat.
2
Alton Sterling was violently resisting arrest. It sure seems like he posed a threat. Whether it was a lethal threat or the use of lethal force was justified or the situation was handled as well as it could possibly be, those are all things one could debate. But I don't see how you can watch the video and conclude that he was "posing no threat" when he was shot.
3
Rudy, it's time to retire to Assisted Living for the Bitter and Bigoted, where you and your misguided, divisive diatribes will have a much smaller audience. Your time and your perspective are over now, Rudy. Time for your world view to go gently into that good night.
In order to reach closure & heal the nation, all around me wish that Obama would begin the conversation on race.
BLM can do what they want but common sense should easily carry the day - if the vast majority of lives being lost are young black men being killed by other young black men - then the time and energy of Black leadership should be spent on addressing that problem.
Young Men of color in Chicago murdered as a percentage of total murders: 95% half way though the year. YES - that is 95%.
Rudy is a buffoon - but the Grey Lady's editorial board does a real disservice to young men of color if they don't call out the lack of attention to the REAL problem here.
Young Men of color in Chicago murdered as a percentage of total murders: 95% half way though the year. YES - that is 95%.
Rudy is a buffoon - but the Grey Lady's editorial board does a real disservice to young men of color if they don't call out the lack of attention to the REAL problem here.
4
It would be more accurate to criticize Giuliani's assertions as 'lies' rather than the euphemism of "disinformation", which sounds like a counter-intelligence tactic.
I'm disappointed that The Times is not focusing on why any functioning organization or adult would choose to solicit the opinion of a serial liar (not 'misinformer') like Giuliani. Your editorial energy would be well-spent on why the media felt it responsible to add kindling to a smoldering pile.
We all know he's going to lie, and we all know he's a roaring bigot; why speak to him at all? It does not advance discourse.
His administration was not characterized by greatness (cronyism, fraud, criminality and downright stupidity like moving a command center into the WTC), yet even the Times tends to treat his raging lies as if they were worthy of consideration.
Why is it so difficult for you to "quit him"?
We all know he's going to lie, and we all know he's a roaring bigot; why speak to him at all? It does not advance discourse.
His administration was not characterized by greatness (cronyism, fraud, criminality and downright stupidity like moving a command center into the WTC), yet even the Times tends to treat his raging lies as if they were worthy of consideration.
Why is it so difficult for you to "quit him"?
1
According to Mr. Giuliani, the driver who never left his seat but was gunned down trying to get his wallet, to specifically comply with the cop's explicit instruction, deserved to be executed as he wasn't sufficiently submissive.
That's very rich. And this latter day moralist was the same person who announced his divorce to the mother of his children on tv, without bothering to tell her.
Would Giuliani have treated a white person in the same manner when desecrated Mr. Dorismond's still warm corpse by revealing his SEALED juvenile records?
Giuliani's racism was never really latent for those who can discern.
That's very rich. And this latter day moralist was the same person who announced his divorce to the mother of his children on tv, without bothering to tell her.
Would Giuliani have treated a white person in the same manner when desecrated Mr. Dorismond's still warm corpse by revealing his SEALED juvenile records?
Giuliani's racism was never really latent for those who can discern.
2
I grew up in two of the Chicago neighborhoods mentioned in the opinion piece. I witnessed virulent hate by peers and adults, while I wondered, with the help of my public-school education and history lessons, why American citizens, mostly those not of color, ignored our often sad history, and talked as though they'd return to the days of lynch mobs. I couldn't talk racial and human rights issues without the rage-filled seemed on the verge of physical violence if I, even minimally, spoke to the real issues that led to the destruction of my former neighborhoods, and formerly garden spots. Today, I see the same kind of hate in people who are recorded supporting Donald Trump at his campaign events. I witnessed people so angry (about what, that completely erased civilized communication?) they would not, could not speak about anything but their rage; rage at 'the system,' rage at a President of color, rage at women smarter and more productive than themselves. One reason I always felt my two neighborhoods went bad was disenfranchisement by political power and money. My witnessing of this sad human behavior became apparent to me as early as age four! I don't recognize Trump and Giuliani as the patriotic Americans they claim to be. They are nothing but home-grown terrorists. The evidence is there, everywhere. But many citizens choose to ignore it, and pursue the lynch-mob mentality.
1
RG - Same guy who said in interviews on two different occasions that there was never a terrorist attack on George Bush's watch! And no one ever called him on it. He only cited 9/11 when it suited him. Otherwise, never happened.
I understand why Fox drags him out to spew his racist views on these occasions, but I admit I was surprised that MSNBC gave him a voice.
Disgraceful.
I understand why Fox drags him out to spew his racist views on these occasions, but I admit I was surprised that MSNBC gave him a voice.
Disgraceful.
2
The only real way to improve many of the things discussed in this article is to ensure people in poor neighborhoods have schools and community services the equal or superior of those in more affluent neighborhoods. This can only be done by the federal government, local governments will aways favor the rich, since they want good schools for their children.
1
As I watched John Dickerson get filibustered by Giuliani with his noxious and vile rhetoric, a thought came to mind; Why are we listening to this crank?
What has he done lately to deserve this forum?
Nothing.
It was simply put, a racist rant.
I have no doubt as to its appeal among some, but frankly, I do not care what a bunch of racists think.
What has he done lately to deserve this forum?
Nothing.
It was simply put, a racist rant.
I have no doubt as to its appeal among some, but frankly, I do not care what a bunch of racists think.
Guliani is right in many ways. Black communities need to look on the mirror and ask themselves whythey keep voting (if they do at all)
For the same democrats year after year who have proven to have done nothing for the constituents they represent? And how can Obama look at the American people and tell them to "respect black lives matter" movement, when we have seen them destroy businesses, Continuously Defame the police, use hateful rhetoric towards anybody "white," and preach death to our men in blue. Obama had given them legitimacy they do do not deserve.
For the same democrats year after year who have proven to have done nothing for the constituents they represent? And how can Obama look at the American people and tell them to "respect black lives matter" movement, when we have seen them destroy businesses, Continuously Defame the police, use hateful rhetoric towards anybody "white," and preach death to our men in blue. Obama had given them legitimacy they do do not deserve.
6
Dallas Police Chief Brown said it best, 'We're hiring. Get off that protest line and put an application in."
4
Why are so many NYT commenters calling for Giuliani to be censored? Are opposing views so uncomfortable to them that they are willing to sacrifice free speech to be protected from those views?
6
Living in his own world, Giuliani is like a cranky old man yelling at the TV. Why the media or anyone for that matter pays attention to this irrelevant has-been is beyond me.
As a native New Yorker, I remember 'Giuliani Time', its attendant racism and its tone-deaf stance on minorities. Sadly for the nation, the greatest tragedy in New York's history--September 11th--gave rise to Rudy's near-death political career. Giuliani bled the bodies at the World Trade Center and rose from the grave, reanimated as 'America's Mayor'. With the 24/7 bile of Fox News, parts of the country are still duped into thinking Mr. Giuliani has something relevant to say.
1
Why do nearly all the NYT picks blast Giuliani? A better balance that includes those who agree with some of his statements would give your picks more credibility...and create the basis of dialogue in this important issue.
2
Guiliani craves racial disharmony and confrontations . When a shooting or riot occurs he probably calls the news outlets and bureaus volunteering to be interviewed . IT IS HOW HE MAKES HIS LIVING ! He profits monetarily by raising the level of angst and fear . Do you really think he cares one way or the other ? His only concern is his BOTTOM LINE !
1
Giuliani, his many faults notwithstanding, was a good mayor for New York. Crime went down, the city got better when under his watch. His call for blacks to examine their part of the violence that plagues their poverty-stricken communities is undoubtedly racist, but contains a grain of truth. The Africans who were brought here in chains, enslaved, broken and destroyed, were deprived of humanity and any history. That they have retained a culture and dignity and have given America enumerable gifts is astounding. They are like people who grew up with extremely abusive parents. In such cases, even if the parents change (and the parents have changed some in this case) the parents are powerless to make it ok for their damaged children. This can only be done by the children themselves, as adults. While there is much we can do as a society to make the world better for blacks, the emotional and psychological damages which are the legacy of slavery and segregation can only be healed by them.
Reading your opinions its evident there is huge problem in the United States. I agree with everything Guiliani said.
The problem in the United States is not policeman murdering black men...it's black men murdering each other and others...like in Chicago where I think the National Guard should be called out.
The problem in the United States is not policeman murdering black men...it's black men murdering each other and others...like in Chicago where I think the National Guard should be called out.
5
Giuliani is truly despicable. If Trump wins, the country loses.
1
Does anyone actually listen to Mr Giuliani anymore? There was a time long ago when he actually sounded rational but now he simply adds his angry, bitter voice to the cacophony on the extreme right that has nothing useful to say about our country. His hope these days is simply to be noticed. Best to simply ignore him.
Obama needs to tell Americans what my father told me. If you encounter police, do exactly as they say.
4
The similarity between Giuliani and Trump is unmistakable. Both are big-mouthed, crass, loud and a waste of our collective time.
Police officer crime against blacks is bad but so is police officer crime against all other ethnic groups. Is the suggestion that we treat crime against blacks differently than crime against other ethnic groups? In order to deal with this terrible situation you have to be able to describe it. This difficulty is much like Obama trying to defend against a terrorist enemy he can't name. And, that's exactly what this editorial fails to do. Perhaps a better way is to profile what is happening with the facts. That's what Giuliani did as Mayor of NYC for 8 years and what he is proposing here.
1
The only truly surprising and most welcome part of Mr. Guiliani's diatribe was the total absence of the word "9-11." This is in itself a huge accomplishment for a man whose every speech was composed of, in the words of Joe Biden, of "noun, verb, 9-11." Nevertheless, the less I hear from this blowhard bully the better.
1
A very perceptive person pointed out that Giuliani's advice is very similar to what abusers tell their spouses or partners. It's your fault. You made me hurt you. If you would only behave properly, you wouldn't set me off and you'd be safe.
In a much broader sense, the falsity in that argument reveals the weakness of the conservative mantra that "they" have to fix what's wrong with them. The belief in individual responsibility blinds conservatives to the fact that most people do not have either the will nor the means to effect the kind of change that's needed to address broad collective problems.
In a much broader sense, the falsity in that argument reveals the weakness of the conservative mantra that "they" have to fix what's wrong with them. The belief in individual responsibility blinds conservatives to the fact that most people do not have either the will nor the means to effect the kind of change that's needed to address broad collective problems.
1
It is perhaps no accident that the logo for GOP convention resembles an elephant and a dinosaur.
giuliani is still a bully and a thug, no wiser after all this time and all we have learned.
I've no use for this man, and neither should the rest of America. I wish he'd crawl back under his rock and leave the rest of us alone.
1
I call it multi-tasking. We, as a nation, can actually juggle several balls at once. Both black-on-black crime AND black lives unjustifiably taken by law enforcement are worthy causes to speak out against. Folks like Guiliani are pros at throwing out red herrings & dog whistles during times like these. Eventually, they retreat back to their caves.
As Roger Simon wrote,"The Democratic Party relies on the perceived reality of racism for the identity politics on which it feeds. Racism is the lifeline of the Democrats. Votes lie there."How fortunate for leaders that people do not think.
2
The left will never stop attacking Giuliani.He was one of the best Mayor,s NYC ever had.When he came into office the city was in shambles and chaos reigned.We were blessed to live under 20 years of good government until the election of the current putz.Were Guiliani and Bloomberg perfect,of course not,no one is.But those old enough to remember the decay of NYC before these two good mayors would have to say that the quality of life was much improved during those years.The current mayor is still living off their efforts but the decay is already setting in.Let us hope that the city can find a quality mayor in thier mold for the next term.
3
It's racism, not "racial myths!"
Like another disastrous lying politician, George W. Bush, Rudy Guiliani brings a legacy of hate, division and violence either created or encouraged - one brought unending war and catastrophe to the Middle East; the other played the politics of division till thousands of murdered New Yorkers forced him to act otherwise. (For both men, their well underway political implosion was only reversed on the backs of the horrors of 9/11.)
As telecasts of European soccer matches do when some creep runs on to the field, the media should just move cameras, mikes and print away when Rudy opens his hate filled mouth.
And don't be shy about labeling Giuliani for exactly what and who he is: a racist. There are no "racial myths" at work here. The only thing visible is racism.
Like another disastrous lying politician, George W. Bush, Rudy Guiliani brings a legacy of hate, division and violence either created or encouraged - one brought unending war and catastrophe to the Middle East; the other played the politics of division till thousands of murdered New Yorkers forced him to act otherwise. (For both men, their well underway political implosion was only reversed on the backs of the horrors of 9/11.)
As telecasts of European soccer matches do when some creep runs on to the field, the media should just move cameras, mikes and print away when Rudy opens his hate filled mouth.
And don't be shy about labeling Giuliani for exactly what and who he is: a racist. There are no "racial myths" at work here. The only thing visible is racism.
4
Somebody has to stand up for the police. Why brand all the police for the actions of a few? Isn't that what the media says about Muslims?
Rudy's racial myths will find some reception among those who feel that the police as a whole are getting a raw deal.
Rudy's racial myths will find some reception among those who feel that the police as a whole are getting a raw deal.
1
Frankly no one cares about what Guliani thinks, yet you do not allow readers to comment on your editorial about police use of robots, which I am sure many of us would like. Why are some editorial board op-eds open to comment and others not? Police use of robots is definitely a more interesting issue than your senile former mayor.
I watched with a nostalgic horror as Giuliani did his Sunday morning diatribe. Oh to be AOWG (angry old white guy) ,a podium , and no need to worry about elective office ever again. The post 9/11 halo has definitely dropped , and the posturing for a cabinet position in the Donald's administration has begun. Think Rudy as Atty General, and 'Giuliani Time' will resonate Nation Wide.
Like Cops don't have enough problems , friends like this .....
Like Cops don't have enough problems , friends like this .....
1
This is not the youthful smiling liberal family man Giuliani of his first mayoral term. This is a dark twisted neo fascist racist who is bitter about the twilight of his political career.
1
Those who refuse to heed Mr. Giuliani's message should take serious pause. It is undisputed that all lives matter. It is undisputed that much of the so called hip pop and rap music which young African Americans listen too create a culture denigrating to woman and dangerous to cops, yet Obama is proud to announce he has "Jay Zee on his iPhone.". It is undisputed that young African Americans are more likely to be murdered by other African Americans than they are by caucasian police officers, yet the dirty little secret of black on black crime is pushed under the rug if you will, and never discussed by the elites in the media for fear of being branded insensitive or racist. Until the facts get discussed the problem will fester. Obama's hometown Chicago run by democrat crony Rahm Emanuel is a killing field for young minorities but we never hear about it from the NYT. All we hear about is gun control as if the guns have an automatic brain chip in their triggers and are doing the shootings on auto pilot. Rudy blew that myth up and properly so and what does he get? He gets called a racist by the NYT editorial board. This is the type of culture where nothing can change. So sad.
3
It's not "Black on Black" or "Whatever Shade of Color on Whatever Shade of Color" violence - it's "Segregated, Jobless, Poor & Hopeless" violence on "Segregated, Jobless, Poor & Hopeless". It can happen to any "Color" that has been subjugated to slavery & discrimination.
1
Speaking of "myths", let's not forget the one that started this whole intifada; "hands up, don't shoot". It never happened. Rudy might have ratcheted up the rhetoric, but it's no more worse than the lie that BLM is founded on.
1
What is so shocking about what Giuliani has said. It is largely true. It is an unfortunate reality that black America has a culture problem. Why don't people want to address that. Unemployment, poverty, out of wedlock births, violence etc., granted a lot of it a terrible legacy of slavery and formal race discrimination, but problems nonetheless. That does not take away from the tragedy of any truly innocent person being killed by the police, but do we have to say it again, those police killings are very, very rare. Even this article has to go back over 17 years to find more than a handful of examples of police killing truly innocent black men. Let us not forget Michael Brown, Eric Garner and others were not innocent, they were in the process of committing at least misdemeanor and sometimes felony crimes when they were killed. And even they and other really innocent men were not executed, they were killed as a result of poor decisions and training by individual cops. Look, cops and white America have to admit blacks have it tougher out there no doubt. But black America has to admit that they contribute to the problem in many ways. The police and the white establishment is not forcing young black youth to false charge, that is fake attack people, in the street as a game or mock or taunt people on the subway - Asian students coming home from Stuyvesant, Yeshiva students and Indian families don't seem to do that and they are not getting shot by the police. It goes both ways.
8
Why does the NYT insist on perpetuating the hatred in this country?
Does an honest discussion that disagrees with your opinion , have to be wrong and racist. Apparently, your intellect to instantly call out the race card shows your bias and lack of a worthy argument.
Ask any so called African American which country in "AFRICA" there folks came from? 99.99% will think your nuts. When you tell anyone who claims to be an African American that Africa is not a nation or a country , it's a CONTINENT they don't understand. Could it be the level of education?
It's akin to someone from France or Italy saying they are EUROPEAN AMERICANS! Wrong
Black Lives Matter, may have started out with good intentions. However, they have been corrupted by the radicals (Alinsky followers) who see an opportunity to cause havoc.
Giuliani isn't trying to change the subject .Your just trying to deflect the true discussion needed and the best way to keep "YOUR" ship on course is to cry RACISM.
Does an honest discussion that disagrees with your opinion , have to be wrong and racist. Apparently, your intellect to instantly call out the race card shows your bias and lack of a worthy argument.
Ask any so called African American which country in "AFRICA" there folks came from? 99.99% will think your nuts. When you tell anyone who claims to be an African American that Africa is not a nation or a country , it's a CONTINENT they don't understand. Could it be the level of education?
It's akin to someone from France or Italy saying they are EUROPEAN AMERICANS! Wrong
Black Lives Matter, may have started out with good intentions. However, they have been corrupted by the radicals (Alinsky followers) who see an opportunity to cause havoc.
Giuliani isn't trying to change the subject .Your just trying to deflect the true discussion needed and the best way to keep "YOUR" ship on course is to cry RACISM.
2
No change.
He was adversarial during his time in office...and he is more so now.
Why is that?
Because he likes the limelight...he is taking after his friend Donald Drumpf....say outrageous and incendiary things and get press coverage.
He does not have a shred of legitimacy left...a Fox News sycophant.
He was adversarial during his time in office...and he is more so now.
Why is that?
Because he likes the limelight...he is taking after his friend Donald Drumpf....say outrageous and incendiary things and get press coverage.
He does not have a shred of legitimacy left...a Fox News sycophant.
6
" ... pleaded with the authorities for help ... " There in lies the essential problem. The failure of blacks and NY Times Editorial Baord to look in the mirror. Rudy Giuliani has got it exactly right.
3
When a Black person kills another Black person, a daily occurrence in our country, the Black community says little or nothing.
When a White police officer kills a Black person, we very often see huge demonstrations across the country with both the marchers and many in the media call this "killings" murder. The fact that what happened in Louisiana and Minnesota is still being investigated by the FBI, the Justice Department and local authorities matters not at all. These marchers and their friends in the media just KNOW these White cops must be guilty.
Rudy is correct, he is NOT changing the subject, and these demonstrators clearly are only concerned about the Blacks killed by White police.
Someday, sociologists will write books about how and when hard truths about Black violence in America became knows as "myths" to so many.
Only in America.
When a White police officer kills a Black person, we very often see huge demonstrations across the country with both the marchers and many in the media call this "killings" murder. The fact that what happened in Louisiana and Minnesota is still being investigated by the FBI, the Justice Department and local authorities matters not at all. These marchers and their friends in the media just KNOW these White cops must be guilty.
Rudy is correct, he is NOT changing the subject, and these demonstrators clearly are only concerned about the Blacks killed by White police.
Someday, sociologists will write books about how and when hard truths about Black violence in America became knows as "myths" to so many.
Only in America.
5
While gang killings or other violence in black neighborhood is tragic there is a difference between that and the killings of black men and women by police. If the perpetrators of the other killings are caught, there is a good chance they will be tried and convicted. However, even when there are videos showing what happened to the police victims , the police officers responsible are rarely even brought to trial, let alone convicted. Even when the officer has had other violations for using excessive force such as Daniel Pantaleo, the office who killed Eric Garner, nothing happens. Because Black Life Matters is focusing on this particular injustice doesn't mean that they are not concerned about all the violence in their community. No one movement can change everything.
Rudy Giuliani is the worst spokesman for anything to do with police violence. His treatment of the unarmed victims of black men during his tenure as mayor was despicable, blaming African immigrant Amadou Diallo for getting shot 43 times, because he didn't reach for his wallet soon enough. And bringing up unarmed victim Patrick Dormand's juvenile record, saying "he was no choir boy." Actually Dormand had been a choir boy, but none of this had no bearing whatsoever on what happened to him. Giuliani should go back to doing what he does best, as Joe Biden said about him when he was briefly running for president in 2012: there's only three things he [needs] to make ... a sentence: a noun and a verb and 9/11
Rudy Giuliani is the worst spokesman for anything to do with police violence. His treatment of the unarmed victims of black men during his tenure as mayor was despicable, blaming African immigrant Amadou Diallo for getting shot 43 times, because he didn't reach for his wallet soon enough. And bringing up unarmed victim Patrick Dormand's juvenile record, saying "he was no choir boy." Actually Dormand had been a choir boy, but none of this had no bearing whatsoever on what happened to him. Giuliani should go back to doing what he does best, as Joe Biden said about him when he was briefly running for president in 2012: there's only three things he [needs] to make ... a sentence: a noun and a verb and 9/11
2
I see someone has been reading Father Pfleger's posts about Chicago violence.
NPR tried to dredge up a record on Mr. Castillo and all they found were numerous police stops and the horrible, terrible crime he committed: driving on an expired license, a misdemeanor. What a criminal to be shot down by a police officer who saw him as a threat because of the color of his skin and the horrible terrible crime hew was committing this time: driving with a broken taillight. My God we must keep these criminals off the street! Mr. Castillo is the one who proves that even if you are respectful to the very disrespectful police you can still be murdered, and we will see if this shooting too will be with impunity.
It is the mentality my husband described to me and that I did not believe at the time, that Whites seem to believe that Black people have some magical strengths and abilities. Darren Wilson saw Micheal Brown as a monster he had to shoot repeatedly until dead because the magical Black strength might kick in and Mr. Brown would get up and overpower him. The myth of the ultra-strong Black Buck ingrained in our White psyches.
When will we return to sanity in this country (world?) and realize we are not very different. Young whites get into trouble and gangs too when poor and disenfranchised. It is not color it is the culture forced on the disenfranchised poor, desperate, hopeless, and forgotten that causes crime and violence. Skin color is optional.
NPR tried to dredge up a record on Mr. Castillo and all they found were numerous police stops and the horrible, terrible crime he committed: driving on an expired license, a misdemeanor. What a criminal to be shot down by a police officer who saw him as a threat because of the color of his skin and the horrible terrible crime hew was committing this time: driving with a broken taillight. My God we must keep these criminals off the street! Mr. Castillo is the one who proves that even if you are respectful to the very disrespectful police you can still be murdered, and we will see if this shooting too will be with impunity.
It is the mentality my husband described to me and that I did not believe at the time, that Whites seem to believe that Black people have some magical strengths and abilities. Darren Wilson saw Micheal Brown as a monster he had to shoot repeatedly until dead because the magical Black strength might kick in and Mr. Brown would get up and overpower him. The myth of the ultra-strong Black Buck ingrained in our White psyches.
When will we return to sanity in this country (world?) and realize we are not very different. Young whites get into trouble and gangs too when poor and disenfranchised. It is not color it is the culture forced on the disenfranchised poor, desperate, hopeless, and forgotten that causes crime and violence. Skin color is optional.
2
Giuliani is desperately trying to stay relevant. His past accomplishments, in his mind, put him in a position to speak about matters that are obviously beyond the reach of his limited brainpower. He should stop peddling fear to sell services and generate more attention for himself
1
Okay, the Times doesn't like Giuliani. We get it. But this strikes me as an overreaction to the comments quoted in the third and fourth paragraph. More than 20 years ago, Jesse Jackson said that he was afraid of black youth.
“There is nothing more painful to me … than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” Quoted by Bob Herbert in the NYTimes, Dec. 12, 1993.
“There is nothing more painful to me … than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” Quoted by Bob Herbert in the NYTimes, Dec. 12, 1993.
3
Rudy Giuliani made his mark in the history books as the Prosecutor who helped bring the Mafia down. He did this by using the Rico statutes in a way they had not been used before. He did not do this alone and his contemporaries on both sides of the law seemed to agree he was ambitious and eager for publicity.
Rudy still loves the limelight. He is a New Yorker through and through, in case you missed the accent. He missed his window to become a candidate for President, and so he has very little to lose by letting loose his inner Archie Bunker ("shut up youse").
I was watching when they trotted out Rudy on Sunday. And because I have seen him on Fox over the years as he tells America to get off his lawn, I knew exactly what he was going to say and what the reaction was going to be. You cannot blame Rudy, and he has been a public servant his entire life. Blame the news media for trotting him out to spew nonsense and create a non controversy when we all have much bigger problems on our collective plate.
I am a news junkie, make no bones about it. But Rudy Giuliani being obnoxious and tone deaf as he harangues anyone and everyone over everything is about the farthest thing from news that I can possibly imagine.
Rudy still loves the limelight. He is a New Yorker through and through, in case you missed the accent. He missed his window to become a candidate for President, and so he has very little to lose by letting loose his inner Archie Bunker ("shut up youse").
I was watching when they trotted out Rudy on Sunday. And because I have seen him on Fox over the years as he tells America to get off his lawn, I knew exactly what he was going to say and what the reaction was going to be. You cannot blame Rudy, and he has been a public servant his entire life. Blame the news media for trotting him out to spew nonsense and create a non controversy when we all have much bigger problems on our collective plate.
I am a news junkie, make no bones about it. But Rudy Giuliani being obnoxious and tone deaf as he harangues anyone and everyone over everything is about the farthest thing from news that I can possibly imagine.
2
good see see somebody finally calling this guy out. i have been appalled at the giuliani's (and his wannabe, ron hosko's) unobstructed smearing of everybody who expressed a "black lives matter" sentiment. these two (and their fellows in trafficking security trash-talk for money) tailor their vocabularies quite a bit, depending on whether they are talking to glenn beck or to CNN, but their message is alway to distort "black lives matter" into "only black lives matter," and to smear peaceful activists as thugs and aspiring police killers. until they are no longer permitted to ride roughshod over the facts, we are going to keep going backwards.
3
Let us all be reminded that Amadou Diallo & Abner Louima were killed on Mr. Guiliani's watch.
4
Giuliani was a bully as mayor. His MO was to attack the most defenseless, squeegee guys and cab drivers among them. Tough on crime? Well, the economy improved, and crime goes down when the economy improves. 9/11? Well, it was his shining moment after his disgraceful public betrayal of his wife. His polls were never lower. He has been singing the same racist tune for years. Finally, a misguided public is catching on. Too late for us New Yorkers. His poisonous gas still wafts through the street.
3
Why does the press seek this "jerk's" uniformed opinion? Why do they constantly refer to him as "America's mayor"? There is nothing in his record to merit such consideration.
3
I don't recall Mr. Giuliani lecturing the white community after Dylann Roof murdered nine African-Americans at a bible study class at a church in Charleston, S.C. It seems like blacks are responsible for any and all adverse actions but other blacks but the same metrics do not apply to white suspects.
11
Sadly too many silently agree with the former mayor. Put your faith in the youth of the country. The incorrigible of the older generations will lose there grip on power as time sweeps them into history.
1
Thanks for calling out Giuliani. I groaned at seeing him, yet again, saying
really stupid stuff.
The revulsion will continue, I suppose, as we see the likes of Trump,
Chrisitie, Gingrich (oh my god!), and Rudy on the GOP stage in
Cleveland.
An out-of-touch, scary, scary bunch, indeed.
really stupid stuff.
The revulsion will continue, I suppose, as we see the likes of Trump,
Chrisitie, Gingrich (oh my god!), and Rudy on the GOP stage in
Cleveland.
An out-of-touch, scary, scary bunch, indeed.
2
About 1915, 1916, my maternal grandmother moved the family from Chicago to a small town in Michigan to get her three sons away from the neighborhood gangs in Chicago - only then the neighborhood gangs were the Irish, the Italians, the Germans, the Polish (mix them up for any nationality against another). It's always us against them protecting "our turf".
2
Who cares what Rudy Giuliani has to say? His comments are about as insightful as the contributions of the proverbial drunk uncle at Thanksgiving dinner, and no more thoughtful.
2
Isn't about time to ignore this man? Move on, everybody. Please.
3
"But black America does have a very serious crime problem. Black Americans are, roughly, 10 times as homicidal as white Americans, who in turn are several times more homicidal than citizens of most other countries in the developed world. So not only are many more blacks killed by civilians (mostly black) than by police. Certainly, it is difficult to imagine this tone of relations being much better without a major decrease in crime and gangs in the black community. Is it really racist to point this out?"
What makes this point racist, r a, is that people who bring up black on black in the context of police brutality have very little interest in reducing black on black crime; they bring it up because they think it is a useful way to change the subject from police executions of unarmed black men for trivial offenses. Or to somehow suggest that black people deserve to have their constitutional right to a trial, jury and due process of law violated. If you really are concerned about black on black crime, you should join an organization working to stop black on black crime. In the meantime, the issue Black Lives Matter is organized around is a valid one that this country needs to address, and that white people should stop avoiding: Police should not execute people for trivial offenses, and police should respect the constitution. Is that too hard for you?
What makes this point racist, r a, is that people who bring up black on black in the context of police brutality have very little interest in reducing black on black crime; they bring it up because they think it is a useful way to change the subject from police executions of unarmed black men for trivial offenses. Or to somehow suggest that black people deserve to have their constitutional right to a trial, jury and due process of law violated. If you really are concerned about black on black crime, you should join an organization working to stop black on black crime. In the meantime, the issue Black Lives Matter is organized around is a valid one that this country needs to address, and that white people should stop avoiding: Police should not execute people for trivial offenses, and police should respect the constitution. Is that too hard for you?
3
Rudy was just speaking truth to power.
2
The editorial states that for years black Chicagoans pleaded with the authorities for help. What kind of help? Would those proposals work in other communities? How a bout a national conversation on seriously addressing the violence issue. Let's here specific ideas, not just left/right moralizing.
Rudy Giuliani, once again, is chiming in with his warped view of our society in the hope of grabbing a moment of relevancy. As someone once said, "any press is good press as long as they spell my name right". They spelled his name right...
1
I believe his comments were purposely misconstrued. Stop fanning the flames of hatred to sell newspapers. We need honest dialogue. He never said that all black kids are murderers; what he did say was that in reality black kids are more likely to be killed by black kids. Why is that statement considered racist? My question: where is Black Lives Matter in these situations? Has it suddenly become more important to be PC than to state fact; to talk openly and honestly about correcting the dichotomy that exists?
6
Giuliani was a failure as a Mayor--his only claim to fame was that the horror of 9/11 happened during his tenure. He has been riding its tragic coattails ever since. We don't acknowledge his comments or tone.
2
Yesterday, the New York Times published a front-page article ((“Bias is Found in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings”) that exposed the Black Lives Matter myth that police officers are more like to shoot blacks than whites during police encounters as poisonous disinformation. Today, the New York Times editorial board continues to spread poisonous disinformation about “racialized violence.” Today, the Times published an article (“Looking for Accountability in Police-Involved Deaths”) that listed 11 controversial incidents over the past three years. There is such a paucity of controversial incidents that the Times article included two deaths so recent that no evidence has been released and four cases in which grand juries concluded no indictment was warranted. It also cited another incident in which all officers indicted have so far been acquitted. To come up with 11 incidents, the Times added Sandra Bland, whose death was a suicide. The article fails to mention that officers involved in four of the 11 incidents (36 percent) were black or Hispanic.
3
One "good man with a gun" surrendered his weapon to the police when the shooting started in Dallas.
As I understand the reporting, he was aware that, with a weapon slung over his shoulder, he stood a good chance of being selected as a target by the police. As it was, he was briefly reported to be a suspect.
So much for the fantasies of the NRA.
I forget who it was, but someone suggested that:
-If the NRA really believes "good men with guns" is a solution to criminal use of guns.
AND
-If black on black violence is the main crime problem.
-The NRA should be arming black men with guns.
I searched diligently for the NRA position paper advocation this, to no avail.
As I understand the reporting, he was aware that, with a weapon slung over his shoulder, he stood a good chance of being selected as a target by the police. As it was, he was briefly reported to be a suspect.
So much for the fantasies of the NRA.
I forget who it was, but someone suggested that:
-If the NRA really believes "good men with guns" is a solution to criminal use of guns.
AND
-If black on black violence is the main crime problem.
-The NRA should be arming black men with guns.
I searched diligently for the NRA position paper advocation this, to no avail.
2
I'm confused because last time I checked when white men commit crimes they are less likely to get caught and convicted (hm, I wonder why?!). That's great Giuliani, continue to spread misinformation and refuse to address the problems of white crime.
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the...
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the...
2
The NYT's is complicit in creating, supporting and encouraging racial bias and violence. This news media giant should be sued and contained for the treason and blatant support for riots in an effort to make headlines and favor the Democratic party. Giuliani is precisely correct, BLM is not a peaceful group and the fact that President Obama and Hillary Clinton support them is a disgrace. The left has truly lost its way and we are suffering from two terms of poor leadership. I hope everyone has learned the lesson from having Obama as president.
4
Looking at the headline, one expects a rational debunking of Rudy's "racial myths." Instead the editorial is a vituperative harangue that changes the topic. Let's look at the "myths" the editorial ostensibly responds to: "n his view, the problem is black gangs" This is not a problem? Chicago anyone? Hello? "murderous black children" This is the Times offensively spinning what Rudy said. The problem is not little tots with guns, of course, but young people - mostly young men - with guns, terrorizing their inner city neighborhoods and shooting each other. Black on black violence. And yes, Times, it's a big problem. "the refusal of black protesters to look in the mirror at their 'racist' selves" Assuming he's referring to BLM protesters who throw rocks and bottles at police while taunting and insulting them, why, yes, this is not helpful to the peaceful cause ostensibly embraced by BLM. "black parents’ failure to teach their children to respect the police." This is the weakest of any of Rudy's points. The proof has been on the street - and now on video - for years: young black men too often have to be wary of the police to avoid arrest or worse. The real problem is many young people growing up in homes without parents, and instead being raised by dedicated grandmothers (or great grands). The Times' pathological refusal to engage in a rational discussion of these issues is an example of why we are increasingly such a bitterly divided people.
2
Terrific column on a banner holder of true republican values and disinformation. Giuliani gets to say what a majority of republicans think and believe regardless how many video clips they are shown of police killing black americans.
1
The best thing Mr Giuliani can do for the country is keep his mouth shut.
3
It's not surprising that Guiliani is tone deaf to the message of Black Lives Matter - that Blacks are much more likely to be profiled by police and, therefore, more likely to be killed by rogue policemen.
3
Like Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani will make false, ridiculous statements without being challenged!
For example: On Jan. 8th, 2010, on "Good Morning America", the former New York mayor joined fellow Republicans Dick Cheney, Dana Perino and Mary Matalin in seeming to forget that the September 11th attacks happened under President Bush, when he declared, "We had no domestic attacks under Bush; we've had one under Obama."
Not only does the statement suggest Giuliani forgot the devastating 9-11 attack in his own city, it also omits the anthrax attacks and the attempted shoe bomber attack. A day earlier, Giuliani falsely claimed that the shoe bomber attack occurred before September 11th. Good Morning America host George Stephanopoulos, said nothing!
For example: On Jan. 8th, 2010, on "Good Morning America", the former New York mayor joined fellow Republicans Dick Cheney, Dana Perino and Mary Matalin in seeming to forget that the September 11th attacks happened under President Bush, when he declared, "We had no domestic attacks under Bush; we've had one under Obama."
Not only does the statement suggest Giuliani forgot the devastating 9-11 attack in his own city, it also omits the anthrax attacks and the attempted shoe bomber attack. A day earlier, Giuliani falsely claimed that the shoe bomber attack occurred before September 11th. Good Morning America host George Stephanopoulos, said nothing!
1
Where is the NYT coverage of the blockading of Interstate highways across the US? How is the disruption of travel and commerce not consider rioting? Some blockades include violence (brick and cement block dropped off over passes or thrown at cars and police)! Emergency vehicles can't respond to calls and many people are trapped for hours, unable to get to work!
2
What Giuliani and others try to obscure with their black on black crime statements is that criminals are not sworn to protect and serve. The police are.
2
Mr Giuliani is trying to remain relevant. I assume the Times is (rightfully) addressing his comments because of his history with New York and his laudable leadership during 9/11 as "America's Mayor." But given his failed presidential candidacy in 2008, I suspect that now no one outside New York really cares what he has to say.
1
It's my policy to cease paying attention any man who intentionally and gleefully humiliates his wife in public.
1
'Defamed the BLM movement as a 'war on cops'? So how would you characterize the videoed march of BLM hordes in NYC repeatedly chanting "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!" Okay, maybe not a declaration of war. Just an exhortation to mass murder. Defamation? Please.
4
Compare the positive response of the Dallas police who have extended an olive branch to the protestors ("We're hiring") with the negative tone of this editorial which unnecessarily drags in Giuliani who is at best a marginal figure. So he has some opinions which the NYT doesn't agree with. So what? Unless the NYT has an ongoing grudge and is out for blood.
2
I knew Donald Trump would position himself as the "law and order candidate." If anyone needs help with hearing that position, it means " I'm on the opposite side of Black Lives Matter, and the democrats are in league with them."
Trump will hope that the recent violence will scare white suburban republican moms (heretofore disgusted with his vulgar tone) right into his waiting arms, for he is the Great Protector.
This is the same old republican playbook. Who said Donald Trump is a different republican?
Trump will hope that the recent violence will scare white suburban republican moms (heretofore disgusted with his vulgar tone) right into his waiting arms, for he is the Great Protector.
This is the same old republican playbook. Who said Donald Trump is a different republican?
2
The nytimes editorial has made facts out of unverified assertions as to the behavior of the gentlemen who were shot. Several pieces of evidence have since come to light suggesting key pieces of the media narrative are wrong. Further, the editorial does not refute anything said by Giuliani with actual facts. Your own paper published a story yesterday by an African American Harvard professor which said whites are disproportionately shot by the police, not African Americans. You have also ignored the core point made by Giuliani which is that there is a massive epidemic of black on black killings in the inner cities. Politically correct moralizing comments are no match for core statistics and clear causation a.
2
Rudi, for all his faults, is the Mayor who pulled this city out of the abyss after decades of Democratic Rot. The streets were unsafe and portions of the island of Manhattan were impassible after dark. The lower West Side was a wasteland and 42nd street was den of sin. Let's not even talk about the Bronx, Long Island City and Queens.
The inconvenient truth is that Rudi is correct about Black on Black crime. He is also correct that if you want to reduce crime in big cities, you go where the crime is and engage these thugs in the only way they know. You also put them in jail and after showing repeat and serial offenses, you leave them there. Full Stop.
How soon we forget. NYC stands in stark contrast to Chicago because of the agenda of Rudi and team as compared to the failed Chicago legacy of Obama and team.
Wake up, it's about to happen again.
The inconvenient truth is that Rudi is correct about Black on Black crime. He is also correct that if you want to reduce crime in big cities, you go where the crime is and engage these thugs in the only way they know. You also put them in jail and after showing repeat and serial offenses, you leave them there. Full Stop.
How soon we forget. NYC stands in stark contrast to Chicago because of the agenda of Rudi and team as compared to the failed Chicago legacy of Obama and team.
Wake up, it's about to happen again.
2
In the series of events that lead to police shootings of black men, it seemed the first domino to fall was a crime. I often thought well if they weren't committing a crime, then the series of events that followed would not have occurred.
Then came Philando Castile. He was not committing a crime. He was listening to the Police, doing what the officer told him. He informed the officer that he had a gun, which was the right thing to do. He had every right to carry a gun and according to everyone from the Speaker of the House throughout the halls of Congress, he should be carrying a gun. So the officer has no cause to say he reacted because Philando Castile had a gun.
Mr. Guiliani you are wrong. I was wrong. Philando Castile and other black men were shot because of the color of their skin. It has nothing to do with "black gangs, murderous black children, the refusal of black protesters to look in the mirror at their 'racist' selves, and black parents’ failure to teach their children to respect the police."
More likely it has to do with men who really should not be wearing a badge, due to their own prejudice. Men who were likely brought up not to trust and possibly fear black men. Tragically they carry this belief, consciously or unconsciously into their job.
Then came Philando Castile. He was not committing a crime. He was listening to the Police, doing what the officer told him. He informed the officer that he had a gun, which was the right thing to do. He had every right to carry a gun and according to everyone from the Speaker of the House throughout the halls of Congress, he should be carrying a gun. So the officer has no cause to say he reacted because Philando Castile had a gun.
Mr. Guiliani you are wrong. I was wrong. Philando Castile and other black men were shot because of the color of their skin. It has nothing to do with "black gangs, murderous black children, the refusal of black protesters to look in the mirror at their 'racist' selves, and black parents’ failure to teach their children to respect the police."
More likely it has to do with men who really should not be wearing a badge, due to their own prejudice. Men who were likely brought up not to trust and possibly fear black men. Tragically they carry this belief, consciously or unconsciously into their job.
3
Rudy Giuliani is seeking relevance and notoriety. Fox is his only outlet, and he knows what nasty rhetoric to say to stay on their air. After hundreds of years of slavery followed by another hundred years of Jim Crow laws and brutal segregation followed by 50 years of slow progress, yes, we need to demand that black lives matter. South Carolina kept flying the Confederate flag until last year when 9 blacks were murdered in a Charleston church by a white supremacist. Unarmed blacks have been shot to death by police, who usually go free. When your existence has been threatened and denigrated for centuries in America, that your life matters has not been recognized. So you and others have to say it until people listen.
2
I can't understand how you can besmirch the best Mayor NYC has had in my lifetime. Blacks account for over 50% of all violent crime that's a fact that you conveniently leave out!
Nice pivot from discussing race to police violence. if you're so concerned where is the NYT when it happens to a white criminal? where's the outcry about police brutality? nowhere.
that "whites kill more whites" that's true, but no one is blaming blacks for it! when Freddie Grey was killed was it due to racism? When a criminal brakes the law, resisting arrest is a crime which force is sanctioned how does the NYT give credence to racist groups loke BLM and SJWs by immediately declaring racism from a video without a shred of evidence to support that claim.
The NYT should be embarrassed. the blood of the Dallas police officers are partially on your hands for fanning racial hatred where there is none, strictly for the sole purpose of selling newspapers.
Nice pivot from discussing race to police violence. if you're so concerned where is the NYT when it happens to a white criminal? where's the outcry about police brutality? nowhere.
that "whites kill more whites" that's true, but no one is blaming blacks for it! when Freddie Grey was killed was it due to racism? When a criminal brakes the law, resisting arrest is a crime which force is sanctioned how does the NYT give credence to racist groups loke BLM and SJWs by immediately declaring racism from a video without a shred of evidence to support that claim.
The NYT should be embarrassed. the blood of the Dallas police officers are partially on your hands for fanning racial hatred where there is none, strictly for the sole purpose of selling newspapers.
2
When blacks say that black lives matter, they mean that black lives matter just as much as whites or anyone else. Giuliani knows this but chooses to distort the meaning to serve his vicious, racist opinions. He has become the new George Wallace and just as irrelevant.
3
I am not a clinician, but someone who is should take a close look at Giuliani's irrational meanness and tell the rest of us whether this man is declining mentally. His rants have reached the point where it would be a service to him and the country alike if we just ignored him.
4
Despite their accusations against advocates of police reform, Giuliani and his allies are using the Dallas shooting for their own political benefit. They claim that if you ever criticized the police, then you have "blood on your hands."
Never mind that the vast majority of reform advocates have never condoned violence against the police. It doesn't matter as far as authoritarian hacks like Giuliani are concerned. If you said bad things about police, then you might as well be a cop-killer yourself. The complete lack of logic in their argument is so staggering. Yet they are using this nonsense to try to shut down calls for police reform. "Don't you dare criticize the police more," they cry shrilly, "or more people will die!" I hope the public does not fall for it.
Never mind that the vast majority of reform advocates have never condoned violence against the police. It doesn't matter as far as authoritarian hacks like Giuliani are concerned. If you said bad things about police, then you might as well be a cop-killer yourself. The complete lack of logic in their argument is so staggering. Yet they are using this nonsense to try to shut down calls for police reform. "Don't you dare criticize the police more," they cry shrilly, "or more people will die!" I hope the public does not fall for it.
1
We are forced to listen to Trump's ignorant ravings but can we finally turn off Giuliani and Palin-please.
1
Mr. Gulian is ignorant. However, it does beg the question about how people like Guliani get the platforms to say such things? How did he become mayor, how and who gives him the platform to say such outrageous things? It's you in places like the New York Times, NBC etc! You provide the platforms that legitimize and spread and amplify the outrageous things individuals like Guliani and Trump say. And then you turn around by the same tocken and say they're wrong! You throw stones into the crowds and then step back and watch them tear at each other, and you say "oh, what are they doing?!"
The Giuliani's of this country have coalesced into the Trump brand. They're not bad people. They're people just like anyone else, the difference is they hold onto mystical, separate from reality views that they expect others like them to relate to. Weird? yes, but not in a weird world. It take all kinds get used to it.
New York Times Editorial Board:
Is it known for a certainty that Alton Sterling and Philando Castile
were no threat - what-so-ever - to the Policemen ?
You do admit that both men had guns...
Why not wait until the the Official Investigation is completed before
you come to public and final judgement ?
As to why Eric Garner was choked to death and little has been done is something the New York Times should devote more energy to.
Again, please devote and entire Sunday Magazine Issue to why there
is so much violence in America and present all the statistics without bias.
Is it known for a certainty that Alton Sterling and Philando Castile
were no threat - what-so-ever - to the Policemen ?
You do admit that both men had guns...
Why not wait until the the Official Investigation is completed before
you come to public and final judgement ?
As to why Eric Garner was choked to death and little has been done is something the New York Times should devote more energy to.
Again, please devote and entire Sunday Magazine Issue to why there
is so much violence in America and present all the statistics without bias.
1
It is not that Giuliani is right or wrong. He probably has some points worth considering and some to immediately discard. But your Editorial made no real points--it was just another general rant against what you feel can only be only racial thinking in broad sweeping statements ( "Unwarranted" policy shooting without mentioning that the vast majority are very warranted). I hate to say it since I am a liberal and mostly agree with your editorial positions, but it read like Trump structured the Article in his own meandering saying nothing substantive fashion. Just because you know most of us--your readers--were offended by Giuliani does not grant you the right to publish such sloppy work.
How many unjustified killings of young black men do we hear about each month. Maybe one or two on average? Over one hundred kids were killed in Chicago last week.
Its hard to come up with a narrative where unjustified or racist police killings are anything more than half a percent of young black deaths.
At least Giuliani didn't paint an entire group of people racist based on the actions of few, or make judgements on a case before the police, justice department or FBI release any information.
Its hard to come up with a narrative where unjustified or racist police killings are anything more than half a percent of young black deaths.
At least Giuliani didn't paint an entire group of people racist based on the actions of few, or make judgements on a case before the police, justice department or FBI release any information.
"We had no domestic terror attacks under Bush..."
Rudy Guillianni - January 8th 2010
People are still paying this guy for his opinion?
Rudy Guillianni - January 8th 2010
People are still paying this guy for his opinion?
5
I read Rudy's comments. It appears to me that he misspoke, that what he intended to say is that black kids have much more to fear from other black kids than from cops. Statistics tend to bear this out.
2
Pardon the pun, but Rudy Guiliani doesn't matter anymore. Why are we listening to him?
So: "Homicide data do show that black victims are most often killed by black assailants." --New York Times. But...who cares, because Rudi Giulani said so and he's mean and stuff. The actual number of young black men killed by their peers is a "blood-red truth" that we'll just continue to ignore...the black lives that REALLY don't "matter," not even to the "progressives," because their deaths are politically discomfiting.
Please remember, along with the litany of now-familiar names like Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and Alton Sterling, a young black neighbor of mine who died by Prospect Park: Jeffrey Jeune. You won't hear him mentioned in any protests. But he didn't want to die, and no one cares, because his murderer didn't wear a uniform. The Times did virtually no coverage of his death, no follow-up, no profile of his grieving family. Jeffrey's life mattered...but political "sensitivities" require him to be discounted--and when the truth is uttered by a bellicose and unlikable bigot like Giuliani, it can be conveniently scorned and discounted.
http://ayearinthepark.typepad.com/prospect_a_year_in_the_pa/2012/07/-for...
Please remember, along with the litany of now-familiar names like Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and Alton Sterling, a young black neighbor of mine who died by Prospect Park: Jeffrey Jeune. You won't hear him mentioned in any protests. But he didn't want to die, and no one cares, because his murderer didn't wear a uniform. The Times did virtually no coverage of his death, no follow-up, no profile of his grieving family. Jeffrey's life mattered...but political "sensitivities" require him to be discounted--and when the truth is uttered by a bellicose and unlikable bigot like Giuliani, it can be conveniently scorned and discounted.
http://ayearinthepark.typepad.com/prospect_a_year_in_the_pa/2012/07/-for...
I've been trying hard to find reasons to keep reading my hometown paper these past years...
While the NYT might be encouraged frequently by its readers commentary, it's lost touch with reality.
The changes that Mayor Guiliani made to all the city of NY were real, tangible & we still enjoy the effects of the difficult course he took to get us where we are. Just about everyone has/had an axe to grind with him - he stepped on many toes as mayor of NYC. But he REALLY changed it for the better.
His comments this weekend were simple & truthful. This editorial is an anecdotal mess, and frankly, seems written by people that are too young ,or inexperienced.
While the NYT might be encouraged frequently by its readers commentary, it's lost touch with reality.
The changes that Mayor Guiliani made to all the city of NY were real, tangible & we still enjoy the effects of the difficult course he took to get us where we are. Just about everyone has/had an axe to grind with him - he stepped on many toes as mayor of NYC. But he REALLY changed it for the better.
His comments this weekend were simple & truthful. This editorial is an anecdotal mess, and frankly, seems written by people that are too young ,or inexperienced.
Wow.
The New York Times Editorial Board has hit a new level of naivety.
a) Number of "Whites" shot by the police and killed - 300 a year.
b) Number of "Blacks" shot by the police and killed - 150 a year.
c) Number of "Whites" murdered last year by "Whites" - 4,000
d) Number of "Blacks" murdered last year by "Blacks" - 4,500.
If you are a "Black" person your chances of being killed by a policeman
are 1 out of 266,000.
If you are a "Black" person your chances of being killed by a "Black" person
are 1 out of 8,888.
If you are a "Black Person" in America you are 30 times more likely to be killed
by a "Black" person than by a Policeman, and yes, "Black" policeman do shoot
and kill "Blacks and Whites".
"Black Lives Matter" is a self-defeating movement because it ignores that vast,
number of "Black Americans" who are murdered by "Blacks".
The conversation should be about all shootings of all people by the police in that an impartial investigation should always take place and the conversation should
be about the unending and warlike violence in the "Black" communities that have destroyed generation after generation due to condoned violence, gangs, drugs, terrible schools, ghettoes and a national failure to take drastic action.
Protest and March for an America where all "American Lives Matter" -
not just those who are rich or who happen to be killed by the police and shown on your News - LIVE !
Will the New York Times please devote an entire Sunday Magazine to this ?
The New York Times Editorial Board has hit a new level of naivety.
a) Number of "Whites" shot by the police and killed - 300 a year.
b) Number of "Blacks" shot by the police and killed - 150 a year.
c) Number of "Whites" murdered last year by "Whites" - 4,000
d) Number of "Blacks" murdered last year by "Blacks" - 4,500.
If you are a "Black" person your chances of being killed by a policeman
are 1 out of 266,000.
If you are a "Black" person your chances of being killed by a "Black" person
are 1 out of 8,888.
If you are a "Black Person" in America you are 30 times more likely to be killed
by a "Black" person than by a Policeman, and yes, "Black" policeman do shoot
and kill "Blacks and Whites".
"Black Lives Matter" is a self-defeating movement because it ignores that vast,
number of "Black Americans" who are murdered by "Blacks".
The conversation should be about all shootings of all people by the police in that an impartial investigation should always take place and the conversation should
be about the unending and warlike violence in the "Black" communities that have destroyed generation after generation due to condoned violence, gangs, drugs, terrible schools, ghettoes and a national failure to take drastic action.
Protest and March for an America where all "American Lives Matter" -
not just those who are rich or who happen to be killed by the police and shown on your News - LIVE !
Will the New York Times please devote an entire Sunday Magazine to this ?
4
Bravo NYT! There is a deep need for journalists to call out the racists among us who spew their lies and racism in public forums. It is beyond maddening that certain so called news services, like 'Fox,' give audience to mentally ill public figures like Giuliani.
He just can't ever shut up. Why is anybody even listening to this racist, wife cheating, moral hypocrite?
1
Giuliani stated that the to say 'black lives matter' is inherently racist. I am so tired of commentators and politicians making remarks which ask whether 'black lives matter' is racist. Of course it is not. It simply means that black lives mean as much as non-black lives.
During the 1980's, when many gays were dying of AIDS, and when President Reagan was doing very little to support research to treat AIDS, everyone would understand the statement: Gay Lives Matter. This would not be viewed as a biased statement.
During the 1980's, when many gays were dying of AIDS, and when President Reagan was doing very little to support research to treat AIDS, everyone would understand the statement: Gay Lives Matter. This would not be viewed as a biased statement.
2
The sad case of Giuliani helps only in one way - to highlight the major problem of opinion forming media outlets that have little interest in the facts. Giuliani is the bile-fuel that corrodes our sense of decency and morality. He has no shame... only a perpetually hungry bank account.
It really does not matter which way Blacks die most -it could be lung scarring for all we care.
What does matter is a way Blacks are dying that is despicable, abhorrent that must be addressed with moral force.
What does matter is a way Blacks are dying that is despicable, abhorrent that must be addressed with moral force.
1
It's interesting that the editorial board chose to close this article by alluding to Chicago's woes. Why is Chicago suffering? Because of police brutality as implied here? On the contrary, police are absolutely essential to keeping Chicago safer, particularly for poor blacks. Why has Chicago experienced such a dramatic increase in crime in the last couple years? The Ferguson effect. Even crime experts like Richard Rosenfeld, who have repeatedly tried to deny it, are now having to admit that the 'effect' is real. The hysteria fomented by the media since Michael Brown was (justifiably) shot has actually made things worse for poor blacks living in crime-infested areas, since it has made the job of policing such areas more difficult. I believe the NYTimes means well in its incessant shaming of the police (or perhaps they're just riding the wave of hysteria), but really they should reconsider the greater effects of their output. For his part, Giuliani may be very insensitive in how he discusses the issue, but he did help to further NYC's dramatic decline of violent crime, which influenced a decline in other cities such as Chicago. But instead of listening to him bloviate on this issue, one would do better to read Heather Mac Donald, particularly her article 'Chicago on the Brink'. She may be conservative but her analysis is on point and unencumbered by hollow right-wing political talking points.
2
Skeletor may still be alive, but he still has nothing to say that is worth listening to.
Yes, 'black Chicagoans' deserve more from their city and county government. Why haven't the Democrat politicians provided it? Racist?
Last I checked it was not run by Republicans.
The Editorial Board's racial myths include rush to judgement based on cell phone video that contain only a partial story. Like the DA in Philly, the Times' Editorial Boards needs to pull up its pants and show some maturity. Why are all the charged cops in Baltimore being found not guilty... after you inflamed the rioting???
Last I checked it was not run by Republicans.
The Editorial Board's racial myths include rush to judgement based on cell phone video that contain only a partial story. Like the DA in Philly, the Times' Editorial Boards needs to pull up its pants and show some maturity. Why are all the charged cops in Baltimore being found not guilty... after you inflamed the rioting???
2
Giuliani's comments may be racist, but it is Black Lives Matter and its support by the NYT who have created the original racist myth that the cops are out to kill black people. Until the perpetrators of this nonsense disown thieir false narrative they will have no credibility. Instead of denouncing Giuliani you should be apologizing to the liberal world for your support of BLM's racist myths. Sure black lives matter; but so does the truth.
1
Giuliani, of course, is not the only one by far - but he's one of the most shameless. But there are lots of people who think this way and most of them are voting for Trump.
1
Perhaps it's time for some statistics.
These are taken from research by Richard Johnson, Ph.D. at the University of Toledo's Criminal Justice Program.
--42.6% of victims of all solved criminal homicides from 2009-2012 were black males
--89.6% of black males killed in criminal homicides from 2009-2012 were killed by another black male
--40.6% of the police officers murdered in the line of duty from 2009-2012 were killed by black males*
--In spite of these statistics, only 32.2% of the deaths from police use of force from 2009-2012 involved black males
Blacks account for approximately 13% of the US population. The FBIs crime statistics for 2012 show 37.9% of the murders were committed by blacks. In other words, blacks were over 4 times as likely as whites to commit murder and usually killed other blacks.
Giuliani just spoke the truth. Let's face it and find ways to correct it every one of us can live in peace without fear of violence.
These are taken from research by Richard Johnson, Ph.D. at the University of Toledo's Criminal Justice Program.
--42.6% of victims of all solved criminal homicides from 2009-2012 were black males
--89.6% of black males killed in criminal homicides from 2009-2012 were killed by another black male
--40.6% of the police officers murdered in the line of duty from 2009-2012 were killed by black males*
--In spite of these statistics, only 32.2% of the deaths from police use of force from 2009-2012 involved black males
Blacks account for approximately 13% of the US population. The FBIs crime statistics for 2012 show 37.9% of the murders were committed by blacks. In other words, blacks were over 4 times as likely as whites to commit murder and usually killed other blacks.
Giuliani just spoke the truth. Let's face it and find ways to correct it every one of us can live in peace without fear of violence.
4
Today, the USA needs a Uniter, who can find a common ground that most Americans, be they be white/black/brown or any other color, can call a 'home' figuratively. Giuliani, lost his chance to try to be positive and for time on Sunday.
Rudy's comments, like the man himself, are beyond contempt.
2
"Concerns about police conduct have grown, he (Obama) believes, in part because of the wide distribution of videos of the police on social media, which have heightened awareness even as episodes of improper behavior have declined."
Black Lives Matters began from Ferguson. There was no video. BLM was born from a lie. And people continue to lie. Even at Comey hearing Democrats were mentioning Mike Brown as example of police wrongdoing. Do we live in a nation with no laws and no respect for the law? Do we have no self-respect - choosing to lie to promote our agenda?
Black Lives Matters began from Ferguson. There was no video. BLM was born from a lie. And people continue to lie. Even at Comey hearing Democrats were mentioning Mike Brown as example of police wrongdoing. Do we live in a nation with no laws and no respect for the law? Do we have no self-respect - choosing to lie to promote our agenda?
1
One of the benefits of our conflicted times is seeing folks drop their charade of civility. You get to see and hear how people really feel, a reminder of what's behind the handshakes and smiles. The center will return eventually, just not anytime soon.
Calling racist views that, judging by the comments, are widely shared, is being absolutist beyond reason.
Why can't those defending the anti-BLM point of view see how inherently racists their comments are?
2
The myths aren't Giuliani's. They're nearly 400 years old. They reflect the fact that the United States began as a shotgun marriage of 2 opposed cultures: that of the Northern colonies, based on immigrants from Europe (especially England); & that of the Southern colonies, based on slavers immigrating from the Caribbean slave plantations, along with their human possessions.
Slaver cultures are all the same, under the covers, due to the fact that slaves always hate being slaves, always want to slack off (as we all would when our labor is unrewarded), always want to escape--often after taking revenge on our masters.
Consequently slaver culture must be a culture of a perverse form of honor--intolerant of the slightest insubordination, brutal, vengeful...& self-justifying, based on the belief that one's slaves are subhumans--rather the way ISIS regards their slaves.
Southern culture's corrupting influence was baked into the Constitution, in order to get them to ratify it. The 2nd Amendment fulfilled Madison's promise to forestall the Union from being able to disarm the South's ubiquitous slave patrols (that's the "mlitia" referenced in it). And of course the counting of slaves as 3/5 of a human being.
This culture of "honor" & violence wasn't just directed at slaves. Duels were far more common in the South. Even today homicide rates are much higher in the South across all demographics, along with gun possession.
Giuliani's racial myths are part of this culture war.
Slaver cultures are all the same, under the covers, due to the fact that slaves always hate being slaves, always want to slack off (as we all would when our labor is unrewarded), always want to escape--often after taking revenge on our masters.
Consequently slaver culture must be a culture of a perverse form of honor--intolerant of the slightest insubordination, brutal, vengeful...& self-justifying, based on the belief that one's slaves are subhumans--rather the way ISIS regards their slaves.
Southern culture's corrupting influence was baked into the Constitution, in order to get them to ratify it. The 2nd Amendment fulfilled Madison's promise to forestall the Union from being able to disarm the South's ubiquitous slave patrols (that's the "mlitia" referenced in it). And of course the counting of slaves as 3/5 of a human being.
This culture of "honor" & violence wasn't just directed at slaves. Duels were far more common in the South. Even today homicide rates are much higher in the South across all demographics, along with gun possession.
Giuliani's racial myths are part of this culture war.
1
So the REAL problem isn't the Black Community, it is all those racists cops? What absolute projection and lack of responsibility. The Black people I know are successful, hard working and family oriented. Sorry that the rest of the Black population continue to grovel in the left wing gutter of blame and anger. Most people are about as happy and successful as they want to be.
Blaming others for your problems is the mark of cowards and collectivists.
Blaming others for your problems is the mark of cowards and collectivists.
The Police Chief of Dallas, who happens to be black, is the hero of today. He should be put on the front page, above the fold, of every newspaper. He said what needed to be said......that the police (as are the school teachers!) are being asked to solve a social situation that is very dangerous. When 70% of blacks and an exceedingly high percentage of other groups' children are born into a single parent family, there is no hope for a viable and stable future. Until "political correctness" yields and tells the truth, the society will continue on a slide that is dangerous. Youngsters need to be told in no uncertain terms that this must stop. "Responsibility" should take precedent to "rights."
Single parents, not matter how dedicated, will have an impossible task of raising a child that can function in a more complex world.
Single parents, not matter how dedicated, will have an impossible task of raising a child that can function in a more complex world.
Why is this hasbeen still being given prime coverage in The NYTimes and elsewhere? Does anyone any longer care what he thinks? He has no influence, is interested only in his wallet and ego.
Basta!
Basta!
Is Giuliani correct? He does make some points.
Giuliani is a disgusting toad, no doubt, and it baffles me why anyone thinks he has anything relevant or useful to say. He was forced to leave the mayoralty fifteen years ago, despite wanting to be crowned mayor for life (because, like his reason for everything, 9/11), and he hasn't done anything important since. He had a miserable failure of a presidential run. He's said a lot of nonsense about everything. He's been utterly without merit for a long time, and his mayoral run was a disaster in a number of ways too.
So my main question is, why does anyone pay any attention to this hate-filled ignoramus?
So my main question is, why does anyone pay any attention to this hate-filled ignoramus?
2
Can we just ban Rudy Giuliani and Harry Houck from television? I have been dismayed that they've been given a platform on news stations to spew their brand of racism. Their incendiary, inflammatory, and highly insensitive rhetoric reeks of angry white men who have long had a bully pulpit to incite. Cooler heads need to prevail like those of the articulate and composed police chiefs in Dallas, TX and Charlotte, NC.
Black and Latino police officers use excessive force proportionately more often than white officers, including against black suspects. Freddie Gray died in the custody of 6 police officers, 3 of whom were black, in a city with a black police chief and mayor, a state with a black lieutenant governor, and a country with a black president and attorney general. Some recent cases, like the Minnesota killing of a black man by a Latino officer, do show excessive force. But the problem, to be very specific, is not anti-black racist of white police officers. Remedies based on the notion that it is will increase, not reduce, police use of excessive force.
Why has the Editorial Board presented this comment as an either/or proposition? Can there not be truth in both claims? Systemic, institutional oppression against black Americans exists. Likewise, there are high crime rates within black communities and blacks do kill blacks, in disproportionate numbers. It would seem then that to properly address the issue, to honestly look for a solution, all factors contributing to this problem must be addressed, not just those that promote polarized agendas.
1
Way too much name calling and baiting on both sides. What I don't hear is anyone talking about how to solve the issue. If these poor (regardless of race) deplighted communities have been socially engineered towards poor quality of life with little left but crime and violence to prosper and left behind by mainstream society, what is the solution? Ignore the violence. Don't write traffic tickets. Give everyone a government house, car and a job. Tougher policing? Policing is the result of us trying to contain our own selves as an imperfect society. The very nature of these encounters can often be ugly and violent. I'm not saying better training and more responsibility for actions on both sides is not needed. But when people are belligerent, drug addled or preying upon others through violence or crime how much dialogue is required. As far as dialogue. Should I be expected to come to the next town hall meeting in the bluff to discuss drug trafficking. Should I go down and mentor youth at the rec center. Although I am one of the few that have the resolve and character to do just that. I find it highly unlikely most people, be it black, white or blue would have the time, opportunity or resolve to go into these troubled areas and affect solutions on others when they themselves already have full lives providing for their own. I think the Dallas police chief got it right when he told the protesters were hiring.
Those who side with Giuliani seem oblivious to the damage he does. He reinforces several of the worst memes of the racist elements woven within our society (both from the right, center and left, sorrowfully)... that most of our racial problems come from "weaknesses" and "Irresponsibilities" and even "racism" in the Black community. Is Mayor Rudy just loading up for his next presidential bid, hoping there are enough white racists to get him elected? Trump is giving that theory a trial run.
1
Giuliani, as has usually been the case, is absolutely correct in his observations and comments.
Giuliani, like Trump, Christie, Cruz and the rest of their miserable cohort, always look to shift the blame for the problem to others, rather than offer thoughtful solutions. Too few jobs for lower income, less educated workers? It's free trade agreements and illegal immigrants, especially Mexicans. Afraid of ISIS terrorists striking in the US? It's radical Muslims, and our "weak, stupid" leaders. Afraid in general? You should be, because America is in serious decline, we're going to lose our country and it's the other guys' fault. These are not leaders, they are demogogues.
" unwarranted shootings by police officers remain a persistent problem"
Part of the problem lies with the fact that BLM and other groups are quick to protest and disrupt any time an African-American is killed by a police officer without waiting to find out whether or not the killing was justified.
Most of these groups have little interest in the facts surrounding a shooting and thus undermine the actions they take.
Part of the problem lies with the fact that BLM and other groups are quick to protest and disrupt any time an African-American is killed by a police officer without waiting to find out whether or not the killing was justified.
Most of these groups have little interest in the facts surrounding a shooting and thus undermine the actions they take.
Giuliani and Trump are diversions.
"There is such a thing as a lesser evil & Hillary is not it"—Michelle Alexander
Reading comments here to the contrary, I am reminded of Harriet Tubman's brilliant observation about the insidious nature of entrenched subservience:
"I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."
When deconstructing reflexive black support for the Clintons, Randall Robinson implored: "For God in heaven, what for?" (C-SPAN video, 9/13/07)
Recall Hillary's "superpredators."
Recall "Hillary's Firewall"/"drag & drop," virulent, insidious, dehumanizing racism/vote-stealing/vote-denial disguised as voting rights.
Recall the NAACP suing the Clintons for intimidating blacks at the polls.
Recall the Clinton crime bill.
Indeed, recall Rwanda.
Some black intellectuals argue that blacks were against the 94 crime bill and blame its passage on the "selective hearing" of whites.
"Selective hearing" sure sounds to me like a euphemism for "black lives do not matter."
How else can one possibly explain Rwanda?
"Be Careful…Genocide finding could commit USG to do something"
nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/
The Clinton role in the Rwandan genocide, the Haitian refugee repatriation to certain death, the Ricky Ray Rector execution, & the expansion of mass incarceration, should have long ago disabused all blacks—and all whites—of Clinton nostalgia.
1
"The colossal Texas lie". Very good. How many of the dead would have died if they had had to be killed by fists, knives, bottles, chains or chairs, or frozen pieces of meat. Some for sure. Many fewer for sure. Your guns are like Zika, Ebola, Swine fever, Chicken flu, and every other disease rolled into one gargantuan plague, which no one fears, no one does anything about, no vaccines, no isolations, no travel bans, no air bags, no licences, no vetting, no nothing. Guns kill people, and maim, and destroy families, and rend the fabric of your country. What will it take to get you to grow up and smell the death?
2
I think that all parties would be well-served by looking at homicide data, notwithstanding some of the horrible stories coming out.
1
Here's another question: Why is Rudolph Giuliani on a morning talk show in the first place? He left the mayoralty 15 years ago. He won approximately zero delegates in his presidential run eight years ago. He's spewed racist opinions for years, including as mayor. As the editorial noted, he smeared a black murder victim's reputation for no reason but to protect his administration and the cops he worshipped. He has no expertise and just appears to be promoting his business, as another commenter noted. He's over. It's important that he's called out, as the Times does in this editorial. But otherwise, why pay him a moment of attention?
1
Why in the world does any responsible media organization invite this man who led a police riot (where curiously NOBODY was arrested) while calling Mayor Dinkins a washroom attendant? Rudy is a racial arsonist who is denigrating an entire race AND lying about crime in NYC. He cannot admit that Mayor deBlasio has made or city safer AND fairer than it ever was under Rudy.
1
Interesting that the NY Times just published a story hours ago on a study done by a Harvard professor that showed whites are more likely to be killed by police than blacks, so there's that...
1
Unfortunately for the lefty narrative on this story, there is new footage of Ms. Lavish Reynolds off of social media -- she apparently did a lot of videotaping in that car with her boyfriend -- of them (just days before) drinking, smoking weed (while driving and with her little daughter present) -- oh, and she is PREGNANT.
This pretty much blows her credibility as a witness. Her own mother says she is a social media "junkie" which explains why -- faced with her dead boyfriend, and a cop pointing a gun at her -- her first thought was to start filming HERSELF (but after the incident was over).
I thought this was odd, but now that the rest of the story has come out, it seems very clear that there was a LOT more going on here than an innocent young mother and child, bearing witness to a racist shooting.
This pretty much blows her credibility as a witness. Her own mother says she is a social media "junkie" which explains why -- faced with her dead boyfriend, and a cop pointing a gun at her -- her first thought was to start filming HERSELF (but after the incident was over).
I thought this was odd, but now that the rest of the story has come out, it seems very clear that there was a LOT more going on here than an innocent young mother and child, bearing witness to a racist shooting.
1
Giuliani has always been a smug blowhard happy to get his free seats behind home plate surrounded by all the other triumphalist Bankee fans. His arrogance and lack of human decency are part of and parcel of that old sanctimonious Republican worldview: life is sacred for the first nine months; after that, you're on your own.
He's not missed as mayor. It's just sad that this egotistical monster continues to pollute attempts at meaningful dialogues on race. Why can't fat cats like him choke on their Luger's steaks more often?
He's not missed as mayor. It's just sad that this egotistical monster continues to pollute attempts at meaningful dialogues on race. Why can't fat cats like him choke on their Luger's steaks more often?
3
If Rudy Giuliani had not once been the mayor of NYC would The New York Times or other media outlets continually bother us with any of his usually stupid and mean blurts?
9
There is something a bit bizarre about the editorial. Essentially, Giuliani is nobody these days. Therefore, why did he rate a Times Home Page article the past day or two covering his blabbering, and why bother giving him more credibility by "rebutting" him with this editorial? All this free publicity does is help raise his speaker's fees.
I expect there is precisely no one out there looking to what Giuliani says for help in informing them or making up their minds. Some think as he does. Some don't. And most people could not care less what he thinks. The Times should stick to promoting the fact that someone of consequence has said something or that someone of whatever "status" has said something new and substantive.
At present, Giuliani is yesterday's news, not worth the paper or pixels of coverage.
I expect there is precisely no one out there looking to what Giuliani says for help in informing them or making up their minds. Some think as he does. Some don't. And most people could not care less what he thinks. The Times should stick to promoting the fact that someone of consequence has said something or that someone of whatever "status" has said something new and substantive.
At present, Giuliani is yesterday's news, not worth the paper or pixels of coverage.
1
Once again, it's false equivalency. Let's say white gangs started killing each other in impoverished areas and white on white murder skyrocketed. Let's say that at the same time, black police officers started killing middle and working-class, generally law-abiding whites on routine traffic stops, so that that stat also spiked. Would the fact that whites gangs were killing each other somehow justify black cops killing white citizens? What is the connection? Are the police on the same level as street gangs, with no better behavior expected of them? Shouldn't the police be held to a higher standard, and expect to be held to a higher standard, than the lowest of the low? Would it be wrong for whites to protest black cops killing them just because white gangs were killing each other? Both are problems, but one doesn't neutralize or delegitimize the other.
2
I know it's a waste of time to post a comment, everyone believes their own set of facts and ignore those facts that don't "fit" their view, but here goes anyway.
Read the last paragraph, the last sentence being "Their struggle, like the one that raised the national alarm about unjust policing, deserves to be heard and truthfully confronted."
Why did the NYT only mention south Chicago? And ignore Baltimore, Milwaukee, Detroit, St. Louis etc??? Take Baltimore, 2015, a record 344 homicides, and sadly 92% of the dead were black.
It is a simple truth, if black lives matter, focusing on reducing the killing in black urban areas will save thousands more black lives than if all police killings of blacks were eliminated. BUT back to the article-I agree that "this struggle" needs to be heard and confronted, but the person best suited to lead the effort, the President who commands the bully pulpit, has never stepped foot in Baltimore or south Chicago to bring attention these war-like conditions. History will treat him poorly in that regard. Why doesn't the NYT write about why the President hasn't "truthfully confronted" these neighborhoods?
I will reveal my bias-I am against excessive use of force by police, on people of EVERY color. This is an issue than could have brought whites and blacks together, but instead was hijacked by Black Lives Matter and others for their own personal gain.
Read the last paragraph, the last sentence being "Their struggle, like the one that raised the national alarm about unjust policing, deserves to be heard and truthfully confronted."
Why did the NYT only mention south Chicago? And ignore Baltimore, Milwaukee, Detroit, St. Louis etc??? Take Baltimore, 2015, a record 344 homicides, and sadly 92% of the dead were black.
It is a simple truth, if black lives matter, focusing on reducing the killing in black urban areas will save thousands more black lives than if all police killings of blacks were eliminated. BUT back to the article-I agree that "this struggle" needs to be heard and confronted, but the person best suited to lead the effort, the President who commands the bully pulpit, has never stepped foot in Baltimore or south Chicago to bring attention these war-like conditions. History will treat him poorly in that regard. Why doesn't the NYT write about why the President hasn't "truthfully confronted" these neighborhoods?
I will reveal my bias-I am against excessive use of force by police, on people of EVERY color. This is an issue than could have brought whites and blacks together, but instead was hijacked by Black Lives Matter and others for their own personal gain.
2
Giuliani like Trump, Limbaugh and Hannity is doing his best to destroy any peaceful dialogue between representatives of the Black Community and political leaders. They have used every opportunity to defame the President and the Black Lives Matter folks. Mixed into that explosive brew of hatred and bigotry is the notion that Hillary is a criminal protected by the President. Vice President Biden so eloquently told all of them today to shut up in diplomatic terms. His comments are very
insightful and makes one see the hatred being fanned by Giuliani and the right wing bigots over the airwaves. its a shame he is not running for the presidency.
insightful and makes one see the hatred being fanned by Giuliani and the right wing bigots over the airwaves. its a shame he is not running for the presidency.
1
Giuliani is despicable, racist offal. He represents exactly the mindset that makes it so difficult to get a consensus that there is even a police problem, let alone a baked-in, structural, systemic racism throughout white America that demands a thorough, revolutionary rethinking and response.
3
i got rudy's back on this one.
let's be clear: every single life matters, every death as a result of violence should be treated with equal outrage.
BLM doesn't espouse this credo. it is not "poisonous" to point this out, as the editorial board of NYT states.
BLM justifiably protests the death of black lives, but its focus is only as a result of "institutionalized racism" as practiced by police. POTUS has reiterated this. BLM doesn't protest the far more frequent death of black lives that are, by definition, not the result of racism, since the killers are themselves black.
so is there an inherent contradiction in BLM (that somehow the deaths only of blacks that are killed by blue as opposed to black are to be condemned)? rudy seems to think so and i find it hard to disagree. sure, each movement can choose its own objective, and BLM has narrowed its focus, which it is entitled to do. and these videos are graphic and hurtful.
however, it is not "changing the subject" to merely point out that we are still waiting for a BLM when a black child is murdered by a stray drive by shooting.
best way to shut rudy up is for that to happen, but we will likely have to wait as long for that to happen as it would be waiting for the NYT ed bd to make that simple and unimpeachable suggestion.
let's be clear: every single life matters, every death as a result of violence should be treated with equal outrage.
BLM doesn't espouse this credo. it is not "poisonous" to point this out, as the editorial board of NYT states.
BLM justifiably protests the death of black lives, but its focus is only as a result of "institutionalized racism" as practiced by police. POTUS has reiterated this. BLM doesn't protest the far more frequent death of black lives that are, by definition, not the result of racism, since the killers are themselves black.
so is there an inherent contradiction in BLM (that somehow the deaths only of blacks that are killed by blue as opposed to black are to be condemned)? rudy seems to think so and i find it hard to disagree. sure, each movement can choose its own objective, and BLM has narrowed its focus, which it is entitled to do. and these videos are graphic and hurtful.
however, it is not "changing the subject" to merely point out that we are still waiting for a BLM when a black child is murdered by a stray drive by shooting.
best way to shut rudy up is for that to happen, but we will likely have to wait as long for that to happen as it would be waiting for the NYT ed bd to make that simple and unimpeachable suggestion.
2
amen.... enough . All lives matter, whatever color the skin covering the meat, the bones, essence of a person or a child, there is no difference as we all in this together. Giuliani is wrong.
New Yorkers shouldn't feel especially afflicted. Down here in Texas, we have Lt. Governor Dan Patrick, spewing the same nonsense. New Yorkers, at least, have newspapers willing to stand up to people like that.
'...the tragedy of hypersegregated Chicago, whose South and West Sides are beset by gangs and drugs and generations of isolation and joblessness, and where the police have long had the power to harass and humiliate...'
The police are thrown into the maelstrom we create. God help them. We should also speak of generations of poverty, low wages, sharecropping and slavery. The police are not the problem; the problem is a system of greed that rewards the few with more wealth, power and control while handing the many less and less. All America needs to face the scourge, the crisis, the crime of luxury and poverty.
We have created the billionaires, as well as ghettos (the one begets the other). Until we see that both are unacceptable and counter to a good and decent community of souls, we reap the whirlwind. Stop greed and you stop poverty; and, actually, we'll need to discuss tax policy to do that (something we avoid more than any plague).
The police are thrown into the maelstrom we create. God help them. We should also speak of generations of poverty, low wages, sharecropping and slavery. The police are not the problem; the problem is a system of greed that rewards the few with more wealth, power and control while handing the many less and less. All America needs to face the scourge, the crisis, the crime of luxury and poverty.
We have created the billionaires, as well as ghettos (the one begets the other). Until we see that both are unacceptable and counter to a good and decent community of souls, we reap the whirlwind. Stop greed and you stop poverty; and, actually, we'll need to discuss tax policy to do that (something we avoid more than any plague).
2
Rudy Giuliani and his need to yap in front of a camera provides a textbook definition of out of touch with reality combined with narcissism. A dangerous combination if you ask me.
1
What a journey from America's Mayor to father of a Sephora shoplifter to metaphorically wearing the pointy hat.
2
Sage words but from a mostly white editorial board.
Poor Rudy. As he has grown increasingly irrelevant on the public stage, he has compensated by amplifying his distinctively shrill brand of scapegoating.
Mr. Giulianis rightly points out that other black males are, in fact, the worst enemy of other black males in the USA. Naturally, this statement is met with resentment and the use of the bankrupt word "racism" but I would argue that those who use these attack positions have not looked at any statistic published on the matter. Educate yourself - start with the FBI's crime statistics - before you lable a messenger. Facts are facts and the fact is that blacks murder blacks at outrageous rates and these numbers feed into the inconvenient fact that blacks commit murder at 3.4-3.6 times their proportion of the population.
2
Rudy never had much to offer beyond a tough guy pose. Now he has nothing at all except pathetic appearances on Faux News.
If you do't know Rudy is right you're stupid... I'm glad Rudy spoke up and I hope he continues...
Trump For President !!!!
Trump For President !!!!
Rudy's just coming out from under a (Christy) bridge to get a Vice-Presidential vetting from Trump. As soon as Trump decides, Rudy will again disappear.
1
Times is right to attack Giuliani for this formulation: “Be very careful of those kids in the neighborhood and don’t get involved with them because, son, there’s a 99 percent chance they’re going to kill you, not the police.” If environment is part of destiny, as it is for most people, then some people do not get an equal chance in life, right off the bat. Giuliani thinks people can talk their way out of reality. He's unrealistic pretending to be a realist.
We need real policy now, not just police.
We need real policy now, not just police.
Black on Black crime is another result of systemic racism whereby Blacks are ensconced on deindustrialized urban islands that are cut off from the economic mainstream, redlined out of White neighborhoods, provided perennially substandard education, robbed of social capital through mass incarceration, exploited for cheap labor, politically marginalized by racial hustlers or outright bigots and controlled by a hyper vigilant and militarized police force dealing with the extreme pathologies of the few caused by concentrated poverty the many. Both phenomena are a direct result of systemic racism.
As Michael Eric Dyson wrote in the NYT a few days ago, "People usually murder where they nest; they aim their rage at easy targets. It is not best understood as black-on-black crime; rather, it is neighbor-to-neighbor carnage. If their neighbors were white, they’d get no exemption from the crime that plagues human beings who happen to be black. If you want interracial killing, you have to have interracial communities."
In economically ravaged white communities, there's a lot of crime too, but we don't split it out as a "white-on-white" problem. Yes, of course, people at ground zero should (and do) work to save themselves, just like people caught in a flood should (and do) work to save themselves. That doesn't mean the rest of shouldn't pitch in, fill sandbags, rescue those stranded, patch dams and broken levees, and generally try to ensure that floods don't happen.
In economically ravaged white communities, there's a lot of crime too, but we don't split it out as a "white-on-white" problem. Yes, of course, people at ground zero should (and do) work to save themselves, just like people caught in a flood should (and do) work to save themselves. That doesn't mean the rest of shouldn't pitch in, fill sandbags, rescue those stranded, patch dams and broken levees, and generally try to ensure that floods don't happen.
1
Last week, I was outraged by Michael Eric Dyson's Op-ed "Death in Black and White." His point: whiteness=blindness. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/sunday/what-white-america-fail...
When I read that column, I couldn't believe that such an educated man could make such ridiculous generalizations about white Americans, such as myself. But then Rudolph Giuliani happened. And Professor Dyson's words seemed prophetic: "In the wake of these deaths and the protests surrounding them, you, white America, say that black folks kill each other every day without a mumbling word...... That such an accusation is nonsense is nearly beside the point."
I want black Americans to understand that ignorant, vile people like Rudolph Giuliani do not represent all of white America. The only way that's going to happen, is if we continue to disavow these toxic, racist comments as loudly as possible. Supporting this Editorial is a good start. Are you listening, Professor Dyson?
When I read that column, I couldn't believe that such an educated man could make such ridiculous generalizations about white Americans, such as myself. But then Rudolph Giuliani happened. And Professor Dyson's words seemed prophetic: "In the wake of these deaths and the protests surrounding them, you, white America, say that black folks kill each other every day without a mumbling word...... That such an accusation is nonsense is nearly beside the point."
I want black Americans to understand that ignorant, vile people like Rudolph Giuliani do not represent all of white America. The only way that's going to happen, is if we continue to disavow these toxic, racist comments as loudly as possible. Supporting this Editorial is a good start. Are you listening, Professor Dyson?
1
The NY Times, and others, refusal to address self destructive tendencies within the black community, resulting in their disproportionate struggles in American life, is like claiming smoking cigarettes has no side effects.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
3
The NYT, with an otherwise worthless attack on the former mayor, has at least given me a cleaver turn of the phrase for its recent "reporting" on racially motivated attacks on America's police. I really like "trademark brew of poisonous disinformation." I'll keep that one around for a future response.
Sorry, back to the response at hand. What? Rudy said there are problems experienced by inner-city minorities which, having been allowed to fester for decades, are resulting in violent attacks on the police meant to protect such communities? The horror!!! How could he have expressed himself in such an insensitive way! Rudy, take off your hood and recognize that there are no problems in our inner cities. The idea that young black males are growing up raised by single mothers is a myth! The notion that there is a higher crime rate, or a greater amount of violence per capita, among the black urban poor is just racist nonsense. Stop it Rudy.
Sorry, back to the response at hand. What? Rudy said there are problems experienced by inner-city minorities which, having been allowed to fester for decades, are resulting in violent attacks on the police meant to protect such communities? The horror!!! How could he have expressed himself in such an insensitive way! Rudy, take off your hood and recognize that there are no problems in our inner cities. The idea that young black males are growing up raised by single mothers is a myth! The notion that there is a higher crime rate, or a greater amount of violence per capita, among the black urban poor is just racist nonsense. Stop it Rudy.
3
Rudy Giuliani has absolutely no authority to speak on racial matters.
If you lived in NYC during his tenure as mayor, you'd know that he poisoned race relations in our city. Who could forget a bunch of white cops shouting "Giuliani Time," including the officer who brutalized Abner Louima in Brooklyn?
Giuliani's words and actions set the tone that it was alright to despise black people.
As the sibling of a survivor of the 9/11 attacks, I thought Rudy did a good job.
But everything quickly changed.
He not only turned farther to the right but he also cashed in on his 9/11 experience to start what would become a very lucrative security consulting law firm.
And just today, the NY Daily News posted this article describing Giuliani's role in lobbying for private prison, Corrections Corporation of America.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rudy-giuliani-law-firm-paid-big...
Disgusting, indeed.
If you lived in NYC during his tenure as mayor, you'd know that he poisoned race relations in our city. Who could forget a bunch of white cops shouting "Giuliani Time," including the officer who brutalized Abner Louima in Brooklyn?
Giuliani's words and actions set the tone that it was alright to despise black people.
As the sibling of a survivor of the 9/11 attacks, I thought Rudy did a good job.
But everything quickly changed.
He not only turned farther to the right but he also cashed in on his 9/11 experience to start what would become a very lucrative security consulting law firm.
And just today, the NY Daily News posted this article describing Giuliani's role in lobbying for private prison, Corrections Corporation of America.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rudy-giuliani-law-firm-paid-big...
Disgusting, indeed.
2
Rudy Giuliani keeps spewing his divisive rhetoric in his continuing pathetic attempt to keep his name in public discourse - this time by lecturing African-Americans like me about how we should raise our children and how we are 99-percent likely to be killed by each other (a ludicrous statement because if that were true, us Black folk would have killed ourselves off a long time ago).
The best thing for thankfully EX-Mayor Giuliani to do is to keep his mouth shut. He was divisive and callous as mayor, and he is just as pompous, ignorant and condescending now.
People like him (right-wing bigots) continue to spew the same racist lies that bigots have been espousing for generations to defend and justify the slave-trade, slavery, Jim Crow, mass-incarceration, and now police brutality and abuse of police powers. The same racist nonsense for centuries. This is why those who fight this ignorance must always be vigilant and ever agitate to change to status quo.
The best thing for thankfully EX-Mayor Giuliani to do is to keep his mouth shut. He was divisive and callous as mayor, and he is just as pompous, ignorant and condescending now.
People like him (right-wing bigots) continue to spew the same racist lies that bigots have been espousing for generations to defend and justify the slave-trade, slavery, Jim Crow, mass-incarceration, and now police brutality and abuse of police powers. The same racist nonsense for centuries. This is why those who fight this ignorance must always be vigilant and ever agitate to change to status quo.
3
Thank you for trying to correct for the racist, misinformed remarks that Mr. Giuliani lisped into the grief and horror we are all living.
If there is anything positive to be taken from his rant, and the rants of others like him, it is that we are witnessing the demise of unearned privilege automatically granted to straight, white, males. Their firm historical grip on the resources and power they have long wielded without question is slipping and they know it.
Neither their guns nor their bilious rhetoric can insulate them from scrutiny. They are being called to answer for the successes they have achieved on the backs of Others and they don't like it.
And by the way, black or white, most women are killed by men to whom they are related.
If there is anything positive to be taken from his rant, and the rants of others like him, it is that we are witnessing the demise of unearned privilege automatically granted to straight, white, males. Their firm historical grip on the resources and power they have long wielded without question is slipping and they know it.
Neither their guns nor their bilious rhetoric can insulate them from scrutiny. They are being called to answer for the successes they have achieved on the backs of Others and they don't like it.
And by the way, black or white, most women are killed by men to whom they are related.
1
We could probably call this the "Trump Effect". It is truly amazing how so many racists have come out in the open nowadays and we can all see them for who they are and what they really stand for.
15
September 17, 1992, Giuliani, in a purely political move to run David Dinkins out of City Hall, egged on thousands of protesting NYPD personnel into a mini-riot at City Hall. I was there, watching from my office window and then the street. It was a scary scene.
It was ugly then and it is uglier now. Giuliani continues to poison the very essence of this City.
It was ugly then and it is uglier now. Giuliani continues to poison the very essence of this City.
1
The Fox News monopoly dominates TV/radio news across the land, and often has little competition. Lou Dobbs on Fox just interviewed Heather Mac Donald, from a conservative think tank, on her book “The War on Cops: How the New Attack on Law and Order Makes Everyone Less Safe”
She and Dobbs snarl on camera at the liberal media for misrepresenting the black/white policing problems.
She called Pres Obama a liar on the show. She was featured on Cspan Book TV. See NYT review of book---she calls BLS a fraud.
The rw Gop line of MacDonald’s is that violent crime is actually rising due the ‘Ferguson Effect’, making cops afraid---so cops are “backing off of proactive policing, while criminals are becoming emboldened.”
She says 1990s lengthened sentences for violent crime, saved thousands of minority lives. Mass incarceration is a needed response to our high rate of gun deaths. Stop and frisk is good and should be expanded to protect us all.
Racial bias is a myth and the attacks on the criminal-justice system, “from the White House on down, are eroding the authority of law and putting lives at risk.”
This is what the Gop rw will disseminate for this election. The Dems had better be ready with strong counter arguments.
She and Dobbs snarl on camera at the liberal media for misrepresenting the black/white policing problems.
She called Pres Obama a liar on the show. She was featured on Cspan Book TV. See NYT review of book---she calls BLS a fraud.
The rw Gop line of MacDonald’s is that violent crime is actually rising due the ‘Ferguson Effect’, making cops afraid---so cops are “backing off of proactive policing, while criminals are becoming emboldened.”
She says 1990s lengthened sentences for violent crime, saved thousands of minority lives. Mass incarceration is a needed response to our high rate of gun deaths. Stop and frisk is good and should be expanded to protect us all.
Racial bias is a myth and the attacks on the criminal-justice system, “from the White House on down, are eroding the authority of law and putting lives at risk.”
This is what the Gop rw will disseminate for this election. The Dems had better be ready with strong counter arguments.
This is a brilliant editorial. Heaven knows in what childhood cauldron of bigotry Giuliani developed his brew of racial views, but when it comes to this discussion, he cannot leave the stage fast enough.
1
Rudy does no one any favors with his self-serving ignorance, arrogance and racism.
I'd like to ask Giuliani if he would chose to grow up black in America. If not, why not?
I'd like to ask Giuliani if he would chose to grow up black in America. If not, why not?
2
I lived in NYC through the Giuliani's time as mayor. Here are a few things I remember about this ridiculous person:
1) Giuliani placed an order stating that taking up two seats while riding in a subway car (by placing a package in the seat next to you) would subject you to a fine (even if the car in which you were riding was all but empty of people). The police and citizens balked at the idea.
2) When the Chris Ofili retrospective came to the Brooklyn Museum, the mayor did all he could do to ban the exhibit because of Ofili's use of elephant dung (a sacred substance to Ofili) in connection with a painting of the Virgin Mary. The mayor was unsuccessful.
3) While mayor, Giuliani was carrying on a protracted, open love affair while still very much married to his second wife, the television news anchor Donna Hanover. Ms. Hanover learned that her husband was suing her for divorce by hearing it on TV (the mayor chose not to tell his wife and children privately).
1) Giuliani placed an order stating that taking up two seats while riding in a subway car (by placing a package in the seat next to you) would subject you to a fine (even if the car in which you were riding was all but empty of people). The police and citizens balked at the idea.
2) When the Chris Ofili retrospective came to the Brooklyn Museum, the mayor did all he could do to ban the exhibit because of Ofili's use of elephant dung (a sacred substance to Ofili) in connection with a painting of the Virgin Mary. The mayor was unsuccessful.
3) While mayor, Giuliani was carrying on a protracted, open love affair while still very much married to his second wife, the television news anchor Donna Hanover. Ms. Hanover learned that her husband was suing her for divorce by hearing it on TV (the mayor chose not to tell his wife and children privately).
This article is about as backwards as if France criticized the United States for intervening in WWII. Giuliani saved more black lives during his mayoral tenure than any politician in modern history, so criticizing him for correctly identifying the objectively true issues facing the black community is as counterproductive as it is non-sequitur. The Black Lives Matter movement certainly is based on a righteous cause without question, but the organization is hurting itself by erecting false idols (i.e., Michael Brown) whilst tearing down legitimate ones. So congratulations to the New York Times Editorial Board once again for further dividing the American people with incendiary nonsense, lest some semblance of honest reporting ever see the light of day in this country again.
4
more money than ever before was paid out to victims of police brutality under the giuliani administration in new york city.
crime went down in every major city in the country at that time with out the brutal policing tactics that were encouraged under his reign.
crime went down in every major city in the country at that time with out the brutal policing tactics that were encouraged under his reign.
2
giuliani represents the nastiness and racism of many arrogant white people - who in the same breath, as he does - deny their racism and who also believe in their own superiority.
2
I listened to him and I couldn't believe the garbage spewing forth from the mouth of the guy whose police department committed crimes against Abner Louima, Amadou Diallo and many others. All that to rid us of the squeegee pests? Seriously?
Then I realized that it in Rudyworld, it all made sense. Of course it does. BLM is racist (forehead slap.) African American parents have never, ever taught their children how to speak respectfully to police (double forehead slap, ouch! )
He is the most shameless, ridiculous old hack I've ever seen. I'm not going to bother reciting a catalogue of his awfulness. Suffice to say he is New York's constant albatross.
And I ask again: why and how does he get air time?
Then I realized that it in Rudyworld, it all made sense. Of course it does. BLM is racist (forehead slap.) African American parents have never, ever taught their children how to speak respectfully to police (double forehead slap, ouch! )
He is the most shameless, ridiculous old hack I've ever seen. I'm not going to bother reciting a catalogue of his awfulness. Suffice to say he is New York's constant albatross.
And I ask again: why and how does he get air time?
3
Sorry if Rudy "changed the subject" to talk about larger issues and bigger truths. We know the NYT only wants to talk about white-on-black crimes, despite the fact that this makes up only a tiny percentage of the crimes on black citizens. White guilt on steroids. But nothing will really change until the black community addresses its own issues -- many of which have little or nothing to do with white people at this point.
2
Rudy Giuliani is a prefect example of a person who has drunk too much of his own whiskey.
This is a common trait across the GOP pundit landscape. There men and women without fail become addicted after a few appearances on FOX news.
Rudy, a former Federal Prosecutor and Mayor of NYC during the 9/11 attack, again and again shows the small bore of his character.
This is a common trait across the GOP pundit landscape. There men and women without fail become addicted after a few appearances on FOX news.
Rudy, a former Federal Prosecutor and Mayor of NYC during the 9/11 attack, again and again shows the small bore of his character.
1
In 2001 Americans killed about 16,000 Americans and the terrorists who attacked the United States on September 11, 2001 killed approximately 3,000 Americans.
How would Mr. Rudi Giuliani, and others who similarly criticize African Americans, have felt in 2001 had Osama bin Laden said: “Americans killed 5 times more AMERICANS than my agents. They should clean up their own house before they criticize Al Qaeda?!?”
How would Mr. Rudi Giuliani, and others who similarly criticize African Americans, have felt in 2001 had Osama bin Laden said: “Americans killed 5 times more AMERICANS than my agents. They should clean up their own house before they criticize Al Qaeda?!?”
2
I'm not a New Yorker, so I don't proclaim to be an expert on Mr. Guiliani, but it seems that his turning point was the 2008 Republican primary: once he was rejected, he has seemed hell bent on being as outrageous as possible in order to mollify "the base."
1
Thank you for this editorial. Giuliani is despicable and it is right to denounce and expose his nasty, narrow, ignorant mind. What a fool this man has been all his life.
2
It's obvious that we should be skeptical of Mr. Guiliani's words. It's strange for someone who should know better [a lawyer?] that the only way to give sound advice is by using facts. Why then so rapidly resort to hyperbole -- replacing facts with careless assumptions? It's a losing game. What is there to like about someone whose words are this full of contempt for others.
Rudy Giuliani is one of the cancerous cells that continue to infect the body politic of this nation. It always amazes me how his ilk are quick to trot out statistics to justify their racism. Watching the videos of the two recent police shootings is all the proof anyone needs. I don't know the statistics for black on black violence when Emmit Till was tortured and murdered. Were they relevant
to what happened to him?
to what happened to him?
1
Giuliani is the worst! The guy is constantly peddling obsolete dogmas and worn out slogans in his pursuit to vilify a minority population. Not for one second has he ever sympathized or morn the lost of innocent lives at the hands of the police. And there's no nuance with him, as it's either black or white which renders him a partisan hack. There's a special place in hell for Rudy.
1
Times have changed and Rudolph Giuliani's frustration is fueled by knowing he couldn't get elected dog catcher in New York City in 2016. Giuliani is a cowardly demagogue who plays to voters' worst fears about the "other." Problem is, New Yorkers up and down state have him figured out, so unless he's going to run for something in Alabama or Mississippi his political career is over. The best he can hope for nowadays is Fox News pundit.
Goodbye Rudolph Giuliani. Don't let the door hit you on the way out...
Giuliani's 15 minutes is over and one would hope he could recognize that and get out of the way of progress.
Goodbye Rudolph Giuliani. Don't let the door hit you on the way out...
Giuliani's 15 minutes is over and one would hope he could recognize that and get out of the way of progress.
1
"fictional statistic echoes a common right-wing talking point about the prevalence of “black on black” violence in America". Really, fictional? Parse it anyway you want to NYTs, the data is the data and the facts are the facts. Remember - the truth will set you free.
1
It's amazing that someone could be such an important public figure, go through so much as Mayor of the best city in the world, grow older and still acquire no wisdom.
Black Lives Matter speaks to black people as well as whites. It speaks to the kids in Chicago who see the murders and gun violence and attempts to short circuit the internalization of the fact--the bald fact--that their lives DON'T matter, at least not to our society at large. There has to be a way to stop young black men and women to stop internalizing that message because that is what leads to the slaughter in their neighborhoods. If they can learn it internally and believe it somehow, despite all evidence to the contrary, that Black Lives Matter--not Only, but as much--so much can be better.
But bitter old fools like Giuliani can't help but get in the way. Just so much noise, interfering with the reception. BLM, too. BLM. Believe it.
Black Lives Matter speaks to black people as well as whites. It speaks to the kids in Chicago who see the murders and gun violence and attempts to short circuit the internalization of the fact--the bald fact--that their lives DON'T matter, at least not to our society at large. There has to be a way to stop young black men and women to stop internalizing that message because that is what leads to the slaughter in their neighborhoods. If they can learn it internally and believe it somehow, despite all evidence to the contrary, that Black Lives Matter--not Only, but as much--so much can be better.
But bitter old fools like Giuliani can't help but get in the way. Just so much noise, interfering with the reception. BLM, too. BLM. Believe it.
Thank you for writing this so clearly and correctly. It is very disturbing to hear a man an American voter say such evil things while knowing many of Trump's fan will love it. So much hatred, so much racism but most importantly so ignorant. Thank you for pointing out the dangerous direction this country is taking, lead by men who are basically evil.
The editorial is correct that there is much disinformation around this issue. One wonders, however, why the NYT Editorial Board, seemingly interested in facts, ignores the most recent data collected by Harvard economist Ronald G. Fryer, Jr. in his just-released paper entitled, "An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force." Had the Board availed itself of the facts rather than trumpeting its own brand of disinformation, it would have learned of Fryer's conclusion drawn from extensive data in his study, namely, that there are "no racial differences in officer-involved shootings." In other words, the chances of a white or a black person being shot by a police officer are equal.
Guilani is exactly right. NYT, making politically correct statements and convincing yourselves that blacks bear no personal responsibility in their own well-being is worse than anything Guiliani could say! No one is saying that what white police officers are doing is right.....absolutely not, but what many of us are saying is that there is also a disease within their communities and at some point, they are going to have to turn inward and look at themselves. NYT, stop spreading your attitudes that enable a poor community to remain poor and dangerous. You can and should do better than that.
1
Rudy, that paragon of virtue, lectures the public. Let's remember the racial divide created by his mayoralty. Let's point out his moral failings- he married his cousin, he left his second wife by informing her on tv, his children don't talk to him, his father was convicted of robbery . Yeah, I'm interested in his philosophy
1
Notwithstanding Giuliani's ability to upset those who disagree with him, I read the NY Times editorial carefully but didn't see any fact based rebuttal of his larger point: yes, black on black violence kills far more citizens than does excessive use of force by police.
So, as abrasive as the former mayor's style might feel to some (not to me), he's right.
I kept an open mind for some cogent reason to dismiss his points. The editorial board provided none.
You just don't like him. Ok. We get it.
So, as abrasive as the former mayor's style might feel to some (not to me), he's right.
I kept an open mind for some cogent reason to dismiss his points. The editorial board provided none.
You just don't like him. Ok. We get it.
3
Must kill Giuliani to see a jerk like Trump get ahead when a jerk like himself can't get any traction.
The proclivity of many cops to pull the trigger on civilians is real, and can only be ameliorated by improving recruitment.
People who like to shoot guns tend to want to be either cops or criminals. We need some of them in the police departments and a lot of them in the military, but we should alter the mix in the former by recruiting more stable and less angry folks.
I never cared for Rudy Giuliani, and still don't, but he makes a good point: the Black Lives Matter movement is hypocritical, because most black victims of homicide are killed by blacks, not by white cops.
[Submitted at 6:45 am on July 12.]
People who like to shoot guns tend to want to be either cops or criminals. We need some of them in the police departments and a lot of them in the military, but we should alter the mix in the former by recruiting more stable and less angry folks.
I never cared for Rudy Giuliani, and still don't, but he makes a good point: the Black Lives Matter movement is hypocritical, because most black victims of homicide are killed by blacks, not by white cops.
[Submitted at 6:45 am on July 12.]
3
Giuliani is a washed up politician who is still living by what he did as mayor a long time ago. His opinion means nothing and I wonder why these shows even ask him to speak!
10
The police in Dallas deserve every sympathy and praise. But one swallow doesn't make a summer. Look now at the more recent footage from Baton Rouge.
2
Rudy, in an effort to remain relevant, seems to be trying the Trump approach to commentary.
5
Giuliani for the most part is a white version of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. A professional grandstander and agitator. The difference in all fairness is that he actually did perform well as the Mayor of New York. Not perfect, but well. If you really want to begin the long process to make things better you may want to listen to the Dallas Police Chief..."we are hiring so get off the protest line and we will put you in your neighborhood". That's doing something about the problem unlike the endless protests and editorials which do nothing but enrage all races.
3
This is a good skewering of Giuliani. How petty he sounds now that he can no longer speak as Biden said, with a noun and verb and 9/11.
7
So Rudy's advice to Black Civilians(?) is to IGNORE Police shootings and killings of the unarmed, armed with toys, choked to death,...and concentrate their efforts on Black Crime?
Psst, how does that solve Police Shootings of the unarmed, armed with toys, choked to death?
Unless (Rogue) cops are Black Criminals.
BTW, of all the incidents (Police shootings of civilians in the recent past) how many of those shot and killed were Black Gang Members?
Psst, how does that solve Police Shootings of the unarmed, armed with toys, choked to death?
Unless (Rogue) cops are Black Criminals.
BTW, of all the incidents (Police shootings of civilians in the recent past) how many of those shot and killed were Black Gang Members?
4
Since 2001 Giuliani has exploited the most awful terrorist act targeting the US. He is doing nothing more than keeping his brand (such as it is) alive and in the news. I would strongly suggest that The Grey Lady give him the cold shoulder and not perpetuate his idiotic ideas.
6
The Editorial Board's pieces are often factually sound and enlightening. This article fails on both accounts. Can someone substantiate the claim that "…Philando Castile… [was] posing no threat when [he was] shot." Is this claim supported by facts? All I've seen is the disturbing video of Mr. Castile AFTER he was shot. Does someone at the NYT have evidence about what happened BEFORE Mr. Castile was shot? If not, why was this claim made? I, for one, am wondering why the officer drew his gun in the first place. Did the officer have a compelling reason to do so, or was he, in fact, using excessive force because Mr. Castile was Black? Did the officer tell Mr. Castile to not move his hands and did Mr. Castile ignore the officer’s request and reach into his pockets anyway? It would be useful to know these facts. It is encouraging to see that other people have also been troubled by this unsupported claim.
People of color still confront a lot of obstacles that White people never have to deal with, no doubt. Yet, it's remarkable to see how these police shootings have been reported on. People seem to immediately take sides, regardless of facts. In other words, people are responding to these incidents irrationally, and primarily with their emotions (many Trump supporters are experts at this). It's not surprising to see laypeople immediately take a side, irrespective of the facts, when it comes to racial issues in America. Yet, it's alarming to see the NYT adopt such a position.
People of color still confront a lot of obstacles that White people never have to deal with, no doubt. Yet, it's remarkable to see how these police shootings have been reported on. People seem to immediately take sides, regardless of facts. In other words, people are responding to these incidents irrationally, and primarily with their emotions (many Trump supporters are experts at this). It's not surprising to see laypeople immediately take a side, irrespective of the facts, when it comes to racial issues in America. Yet, it's alarming to see the NYT adopt such a position.
5
He is the politician who billed the costs of his affair with his press secretary to various obscure NYC public agencies, let his second wife learn he was ditching her at a press conference, appointed numerous associates to public office later indicted and convicted (Kerik awaits trial on corruption), blocked federal agencies from 9/11 demolition, and is blamed for city workers not wearing face masks while clearing 9/11 debris, with numerous serious health injuries. Hardly a moralist.
The hubris of a man who humiliated his second wife and two children when he publicly abandoned them for his press secretary, and was estranged from his son in particular, staggers the notion of hypocrisy with his sermonizing to Black parents.
The best thing that ever happened to Rudy Giuliani is 9/11. It catapulted him to superhero from a loudmouth, belligerent mayor. It earned him millions. Global acclaim followed, even an honorary knighthood from the Queen. No surprise he was sainted by the GOP Deathstar and would today be in the Senate (or worse) if not for prostrate cancer.
Someone should ask Rudi why Italian-Americans don't do something about the Mafia and other murderous criminal enterprises associated with the Italian-American community? That way he could cite useful examples when he lectures Black communities about responsibility.
Pathetic to think how cynical he is to exploit the Dallas horror as an audition for Trump's VP. Where do these monsters come from?
The hubris of a man who humiliated his second wife and two children when he publicly abandoned them for his press secretary, and was estranged from his son in particular, staggers the notion of hypocrisy with his sermonizing to Black parents.
The best thing that ever happened to Rudy Giuliani is 9/11. It catapulted him to superhero from a loudmouth, belligerent mayor. It earned him millions. Global acclaim followed, even an honorary knighthood from the Queen. No surprise he was sainted by the GOP Deathstar and would today be in the Senate (or worse) if not for prostrate cancer.
Someone should ask Rudi why Italian-Americans don't do something about the Mafia and other murderous criminal enterprises associated with the Italian-American community? That way he could cite useful examples when he lectures Black communities about responsibility.
Pathetic to think how cynical he is to exploit the Dallas horror as an audition for Trump's VP. Where do these monsters come from?
10
People like Mr. Giuliani are quick to blame "the black community".
But when the terrorists are people like Timothy McVeigh or Micah Johnson, no one blames "the veteran community".
But when the terrorists are people like Timothy McVeigh or Micah Johnson, no one blames "the veteran community".
7
I don't know whether the EB is corrupt or stupid. But facts are facts, the violent crime rate (per the FBI) for Blacks is 5x that of Whites, the murder rate 7x.
Cops fight crime. They don't have random encounters with citizens, the encounters are weighted towards those who commit crimes. If any group commits a disproportionate % of crimes, they will have more encounters with police. Everything else equal, they will have have a disproportionate share of negative encounters with police -- not because of police bias but because the group commits a disproportionate % of crimes.
Like in any profession -- including journalism -- there are bad cops, racist cops. But that doesn't mean police in general are racist. Inferring that cops are racist and that is why Blacks are killed by cops is untrue, divisive and perpetuates a false narrative. One can only wonder why you do it. You insult the intelligence of you readers, your inflame the ones who don't know the data and you defame cops.
And saying that whites also kill more whites is a non sequitur. The key point is Blacks commit 52% of all murders.
And by the way -- we don't know what happened in LA or MN. Let's wait on the investigations.
I will give you credit for using Rudy as a fall guy. You know that a large % of your readers dislike Rudy and therefore linking him to an inconvenient truth (Black crime stats) makes it easy to sell your false narrative to your more gullible readers.
Cops fight crime. They don't have random encounters with citizens, the encounters are weighted towards those who commit crimes. If any group commits a disproportionate % of crimes, they will have more encounters with police. Everything else equal, they will have have a disproportionate share of negative encounters with police -- not because of police bias but because the group commits a disproportionate % of crimes.
Like in any profession -- including journalism -- there are bad cops, racist cops. But that doesn't mean police in general are racist. Inferring that cops are racist and that is why Blacks are killed by cops is untrue, divisive and perpetuates a false narrative. One can only wonder why you do it. You insult the intelligence of you readers, your inflame the ones who don't know the data and you defame cops.
And saying that whites also kill more whites is a non sequitur. The key point is Blacks commit 52% of all murders.
And by the way -- we don't know what happened in LA or MN. Let's wait on the investigations.
I will give you credit for using Rudy as a fall guy. You know that a large % of your readers dislike Rudy and therefore linking him to an inconvenient truth (Black crime stats) makes it easy to sell your false narrative to your more gullible readers.
14
I agree with this editorial. My grandmother, who was not born here, used to call a cup of coffee that did not come with cake, an empty cup of coffee. Rudy Giuliani is an empty mouth-a person whose words reveal they come with no intellect.
4
1) Giuliani has a point that resonates with many of us. If black lives matter then why are there only protests when it is a cop shooting? (Which is very infrequent) You hear of a night of multiple young black men being killed by other citizens and from BLM?..nothing. It seems hypocritical. Maybe they need a new name?
2) what exactly does BLM want? For people not to be racist?! You can legislate that? There is an inherent bias towards "your own kind", that does not mean people, are racist. What specific proposals do they have that they want put into place? They need specific proposals or this will die on the vine like Occupy Wall Street.
3) Demonstrations that block highways for hours turn many many people against their cause. They need white people on their side to affect changes in police training; they need to not refer to every white person as a slave owner.
As David Brooks writes today they seem "addicted to victimhood"
2) what exactly does BLM want? For people not to be racist?! You can legislate that? There is an inherent bias towards "your own kind", that does not mean people, are racist. What specific proposals do they have that they want put into place? They need specific proposals or this will die on the vine like Occupy Wall Street.
3) Demonstrations that block highways for hours turn many many people against their cause. They need white people on their side to affect changes in police training; they need to not refer to every white person as a slave owner.
As David Brooks writes today they seem "addicted to victimhood"
7
A noun, a verb, and maybe I'll be Vice President....
2
Well stated. Thank you.
Part of the problem is that the mainstream media facilitates this type of ignorance by giving him a platform to spread his racist views. Giuliani spews this poison because he needs it to justify the horrific acts of police brutality committed under his watch while he was mayor that now hunts his soul.
Only American hypocrisy and historical blindness enables the American justice system, run by whites like Giuliani, to condemn African Americans for fighting for justice in an unjust system.
Only American hypocrisy and historical blindness enables the American justice system, run by whites like Giuliani, to condemn African Americans for fighting for justice in an unjust system.
4
"Black Lives Matter' only to black people. 'White Lives Matter' only to white people, and that, in-a-nutshell, is exactly what is wrong in America.
Classic Giulani- offensive, divisive and attempting to profit from the tragedies of others for political gain. What political gain? He is a washed-up has-been like Newt Gingrich. Ah, yes, he wants to be considered as Trump VP material, of course! Trump /Giulani, a match made in Inferno,
3
"Respect for the police". Giuliani is absolutely right. None of these shootings would have happened if the perpetrator had nor resisted arrest, fought with the police and threatened the police by foolish action, like displaying a gun. The liberals are the ones spreading racial myths by denying race even exists, and screaming "racist" at anyone who disagrees with their myths.
6
Rudi 'firetruck' Giuliani deserves no credibility, which is why he constantly needed a fire engine in the background when he gave interviews. His rhetoric is what inspires violence against police.
1
Police need to admit they have a problem with rogue cops. Doubling down on the issue makes things worse. Serve and Protect.........ALL.
4
Which "garbled, fictional statistic" did Mr. Giulini cite that was in accurate?
Giuliani is correct and his statistics are accurate. He does not condone police violence. Rather he is trying to give attention to a much larger problem that the progressive media has subverted - black on black violence.
Characterizing Giuliani's view point as echoing a common right wing talking point does nothing to advance the discussion or solve the problem. It's also about as toxic and divisive as it gets. Maybe in your next editorial you will write about the number of good cops who have been killed or injured in the line of duty.
Giuliani is correct and his statistics are accurate. He does not condone police violence. Rather he is trying to give attention to a much larger problem that the progressive media has subverted - black on black violence.
Characterizing Giuliani's view point as echoing a common right wing talking point does nothing to advance the discussion or solve the problem. It's also about as toxic and divisive as it gets. Maybe in your next editorial you will write about the number of good cops who have been killed or injured in the line of duty.
6
A lot of folks don't get the difference between the gang violence in some black neighborhoods and police violence. Gangs have not been hired or being paid to serve and protect us, the police are.
7
Truly astonishing that the NYT editorial board would choose today to write about anyone's "racial myths". Rather you should be apologizing profusely for your role in spreading the absurd and scurrilous racial myth about police killings of blacks. Shame on you. Your unbelievable lack of self-knowledge is truly appalling.
10
Thank you, New York Times editors, for exposing the senile rants of a racist ex-mayor for what they are—he, the meanest, most undistinguished mayor in our history (think of the personal style and humor of Pinky La Guardia and John Lindsay, for example, compared to the narrow-minded, vindictive and mean-spirited Rudolf "Benito" Giuliani. By comparison, Bill de Blasio belongs in the class with the aforementioned. Giuliani has no class.
8
Rudolph Giuliani is and has been always been a nasty right wing oppressor of those not like him. Rudolph Giuliani is bad for the fabric of society and thankfully gone from any position of influence in the public sphere.
6
Alas, Mr. Giuliani is largely correct & the NYT's editorial board is once again showing that it prefers myth over facts. As several commentators have noted black on black crime hugely outweighs the occasional, very regrettable incident of white police officers over-reacting to black transgressions.
The antisocial behavior of far too many young black males is a reality, no matter how hard the NYTs editorial board seems to refuse to admit.
The antisocial behavior of far too many young black males is a reality, no matter how hard the NYTs editorial board seems to refuse to admit.
14
Geez, didn't we just turn our clocks ahead a month ago and you're telling me it's Giuliani time already?
1
I was a NYC resident during Giuliani's administration. Before he came into office, his predecessor, David Dinkins, ran the city into the ground. I would walk over empty drug vials most mornings when I left my apartment in the Meatpacking District, or saw people coming and going from the crack house across the street. Rudy came into office and cleaned up the city. I give him total credit as the leader who turned NYC around. I'm a lifetime democrat but I voted for 2 republican mayors ... Rudy & Mike Bloomberg. If either of them was running for President, I'd vote Republican again.
8
The New York Times editorial board is an arrogant, narcissistic group. They reject any point of view except their own.
11
The position of the Times (and the Left in general) seems to be that blacks can say anything they want about whites and still deserve respect, but that any criticism of blacks by whites is "poisonous." This is the sort of "conversation" that the Times is after.
Above all, when trying to understand *why* the police are quicker to shoot when blacks are involved, one must *never* bring up the shockingly high level of violence in the black community. For example, the fact that blacks commit murder at a rate almost EIGHT TIMES that of whites! One would think that such a statistic was important, that it might explain something. But no, from the point of view of the Times the *only* acceptable explanation is white racism. And then they wonder why the conversation never seems to go anywhere.
You can find the murder statistic I referenced on page 3 of the Department of Justice document linked below. Decide for yourself whether it is "garbled" or "fictional."
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
Above all, when trying to understand *why* the police are quicker to shoot when blacks are involved, one must *never* bring up the shockingly high level of violence in the black community. For example, the fact that blacks commit murder at a rate almost EIGHT TIMES that of whites! One would think that such a statistic was important, that it might explain something. But no, from the point of view of the Times the *only* acceptable explanation is white racism. And then they wonder why the conversation never seems to go anywhere.
You can find the murder statistic I referenced on page 3 of the Department of Justice document linked below. Decide for yourself whether it is "garbled" or "fictional."
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
14
It is interesting how many Rudy supporters are statisticians and linguists- like listening to a bunch of preachers "quoting scripture" at one of those tent revivals or those guys who want to sell stuff while you are trying to just shut the door on their end times babble.
3
Open letter to Mr. Giuliani:
Here is what black people do to "face our racism": we pray. You a "devout" Catholic have the audacity and hard-hearted meanness to speak in such a contemptuous, inhuman way during a national crisis? How dare you assume the role of spiritual leader to a nation, of black, white, Latin, Asian, and myriad other cultures, when your bigotry represents your own misanthropic view of mankind.
If this is the way you are preparing to meet your maker as your life comes to a close, then indeed, only God can help you. And your speeches, as well as being vicious, are extremely dull, like you!
Sincerely,
A Times Reader
Here is what black people do to "face our racism": we pray. You a "devout" Catholic have the audacity and hard-hearted meanness to speak in such a contemptuous, inhuman way during a national crisis? How dare you assume the role of spiritual leader to a nation, of black, white, Latin, Asian, and myriad other cultures, when your bigotry represents your own misanthropic view of mankind.
If this is the way you are preparing to meet your maker as your life comes to a close, then indeed, only God can help you. And your speeches, as well as being vicious, are extremely dull, like you!
Sincerely,
A Times Reader
2
What is wrong with the Network Producer that continues to put this discredited Authoritarian on TV. The gentleman is wildly wrong about everything but American TV is driven by sensational dystopia instead of facts.
4
Who really cares what Rudy Giuliani and Sara Palin have to say? Please stop asking and publishing their opinions. If it weren't for you nobody would know who they are. Never mind what they have to say.
2
The Black Lives Matter movement will continue to be disrespected as long as the only lives that matter to it is that tiny fraction taken by murderous cops. BLM and others who ignore the hundreds of blacks killed each year by other blacks are trying to deflect the discussion to a thing far less meaningful. Perhaps if the BLM movement would rename itself, Few Black Lives Matter, then intelligent people rather than bigots would join their ranks.
4
A Toledo University study on guns deaths and violence in America shows that for every death at the hands of a police officer, that 40 black males will be killed by another black. That means a black male has a .025 percent chance of being killed by a police officer at a 40 to 1 ratio. This same study showed that for all gun deaths in America only 2.5 per cent were police involved shootings. The study did not disseminate between officers of different races using deadly force. So, the answer is "yes" Rudy Giuliani is absolutely correct in his view, and you the editorial board of the NYT is dead wrong in your criticism.
25
Frankly, we seem to be having more racial frustrations boil to the surface during the Obama Administration than any other time in my lifetime. We haven't seen this kind of overt rift and subsequent violence since the '60s.
One ponders if this new yet reactionary norm is happening simply because the president happens to be black and racists will be racists, or whether his leadership style, rhetoric, and easily predictable reactions to all incidents has had an impact and taken its toll on society over the past 8 years.
While injustice has never gone away and has always been an issue (clearly not of his making), you have to admit that the current fever pitch has absolutely occurred on President Obama's watch. Many other commentators have already gone on the record to say that if any racially charged incidents occur during a Trump presidency, it will absolutely be Trump's fault and the result of his bad leadership. So, why don't they feel that way about President Obama. This is all going on right now, while he is still in office.
Doesn't President Obama need to accept at least some responsibility for the tenor of the public unrest? Tensions and violence have clearly gotten worse.
At the very least, he simply reacts to each new incident and always seems one step behind. At worst, one might suggest that he has chosen sides and/or is weakly leading from behind.
One ponders if this new yet reactionary norm is happening simply because the president happens to be black and racists will be racists, or whether his leadership style, rhetoric, and easily predictable reactions to all incidents has had an impact and taken its toll on society over the past 8 years.
While injustice has never gone away and has always been an issue (clearly not of his making), you have to admit that the current fever pitch has absolutely occurred on President Obama's watch. Many other commentators have already gone on the record to say that if any racially charged incidents occur during a Trump presidency, it will absolutely be Trump's fault and the result of his bad leadership. So, why don't they feel that way about President Obama. This is all going on right now, while he is still in office.
Doesn't President Obama need to accept at least some responsibility for the tenor of the public unrest? Tensions and violence have clearly gotten worse.
At the very least, he simply reacts to each new incident and always seems one step behind. At worst, one might suggest that he has chosen sides and/or is weakly leading from behind.
13
It's interesting that the editorial board chose to close this article by alluding to Chicago's woes. Why is Chicago suffering? Because of police brutality as implied here? On the contrary, police are absolutely essential to keeping Chicago safer, particularly for poor blacks. Why has Chicago experienced such a dramatic increase in crime in the last couple years? The Ferguson effect. Even crime experts like Richard Rosenfeld, who have repeatedly tried to deny it, are now having to admit that the 'effect' is real. The hysteria fomented by the media since Michael Brown was (justifiably) shot has actually made things worse for poor blacks living in crime-infested areas, since it has made the job of policing such areas more difficult. I believe the NYTimes means well in its incessant shaming of the police, but really they should reconsider the greater effects of their output. For his part, Giuliani may be very insensitive in how he discusses the issue, but he did help to further NYC's dramatic decline of violent crime, which influenced a decline in other cities such as Chicago. But instead of listening to him bloviate on this issue, one would do better to read Heather Mac Donald, particularly her article 'Chicago on the Brink'. She may be conservative but her analysis is on point and unencumbered by hollow right-wing political talking points.
13
The New York Times (living off of its reputation for great writing) has gone even further left. . .not just its editorial board but many of its reporters, both of which in many cases ignore the facts. This is analogous to how MSNBC left wingers suddenly try to appear less partisan when they switch to reporting on NBC. . . NOT!
Hint to NYT preaching to its left wing choir. . .which is most of its readers. . .You don't represent most Americans. . .although you'd like to think so,
Guliani is right. . .and claiming he is wrong when the facts say otherwise doesn't make the Times and its knee-jerk liberal audience right. . .just MSNBC rather than NBC. . .and even then. . .NBC can claim non-partisanship. . .but they've got a bad case of the Blue's (in more ways than one!)
Hint to NYT preaching to its left wing choir. . .which is most of its readers. . .You don't represent most Americans. . .although you'd like to think so,
Guliani is right. . .and claiming he is wrong when the facts say otherwise doesn't make the Times and its knee-jerk liberal audience right. . .just MSNBC rather than NBC. . .and even then. . .NBC can claim non-partisanship. . .but they've got a bad case of the Blue's (in more ways than one!)
21
Name calling causes division amoung the people. Let's put name calling and stereotypes behind us. Then we can rationally approach problems.
3
Someone thinks Trump has a shot, and is fishing for an appointment.
5
Why does no one ask why there is not increased police violence against Asian minorities, Middle Eastern minorities, or the other myriad minorities that make up the texture of America?
Could it be that the police are simply responding to the violence that it sees threatening their communities?
I do not believe that police officers enter their field thinking 'now I can kill a Black person'
Could it be that the police are simply responding to the violence that it sees threatening their communities?
I do not believe that police officers enter their field thinking 'now I can kill a Black person'
14
I watched Mr. Giuliani's interview on Sunday and based on his misinformed and racist rant; I was expecting to hear his announcement that he was joining Rush Limbaugh to partner in his radio show. Rudy loves any opportunity to get in the media's spotlight and it is unfortunate that CBS asked him for his opinion. Who in the world cares what Rudy Giuliani thinks about anything and what difference does his opinion make anyway? It certainly did not make for beneficial discourse during a heartbreaking time in US history.
12
Racial truths. Let's speak facts. Obama has been fudging around supporting racial groups like Black Lives Matter and you see the mess we are left with. That's what the spreading of the word of fiction gets us.
Ben Rhodes writes great fiction presenting itself as non-fiction as he did while successfully selling the internationally destructive Iran Deal. Good job, Ben, selling Obama lies. Now how are you approaching the racial divide leading up to the violence caused by Black Lives Matter? This will be an easy spin for you.
I don't expect anything more than more fiction from Ben and this administration and more blood shed ensuing.
Ben Rhodes writes great fiction presenting itself as non-fiction as he did while successfully selling the internationally destructive Iran Deal. Good job, Ben, selling Obama lies. Now how are you approaching the racial divide leading up to the violence caused by Black Lives Matter? This will be an easy spin for you.
I don't expect anything more than more fiction from Ben and this administration and more blood shed ensuing.
8
On what basis does the New York Times conclude that Alton Sterling, a convicted felon in possession of an illegal weapon, who was disobeying lawful orders from the police even after the police had used non-lethal means (a taser) in a vain attempt to force his compliance, "did not represent a threat when shot"? The police who were there state that he did represent a threat and that is precisely the issue that the investigation underway will attempt to clarify. This kind of irresponsible journalism, which reflects your bias against the police, is doing tremendous damage to racial relations in our country. Shame on you.
20
Here's a better question: Why do media outlets continue to give him a platform?
5
Rudy's simple solution - People of Color must know their place, always be respectful to authority, and be thankful for whatever the establishment gives them. Ross Barnett has returned!
6
I watched this, on CBS. The gangs in Chicago are running wild. Tight gun control does nothing whatever to stop them. They don't target cops; they target black men. The natural experiment of what happens when a population is denied education, employment, income, and dignity is producing clear results.
4
I always figured Giuliani was gathering strength, waiting for a time to rise up and walk this earth again as one of the political undead.
7
One of the better things that never happened to this country is a Rudy Giuliani Presidency.
Please Rudy, just go away.
Please Rudy, just go away.
7
The Editorial Board is excellent at making statements but are unfortunately light on proof.
Mr. Giuliani makes an excellent argument that the Black community is complicit in its plight. It is not the only factor, but still a factor which must be addressed.
Mr. Giuliani makes an excellent argument that the Black community is complicit in its plight. It is not the only factor, but still a factor which must be addressed.
14
Rudy of course is correct. The NYT if its willing to discuss police community relations honesty, as a start it would publish black crime statistics on its front pages. It wont. Its inevitable police will have more confrontations with black males based on its calls for service and actual statistics. Review the number of NYPD officers killed in the line of duty by black males. I think the NYT should provide some us with some answers with that statistic. Lets start with that behavior. Then review its pages from thirty years ago this month when a young Officer Steve McDonald was shot in the neck by a black youth. Explain the black violence the PD has to confront on a daily basis.Until the discussion starts with hard objective statistics, little can be learned. Also, people serving time in prison are there based on initially citizens filing complaints---not police initiated contact as some in the media would have us believe.
15
If, as a race, you are constantly bemoaning your plight, and emphasizing it , , by violence against your fellow, you will never progress. Take advantage of the education that is available, take advantage of the job market as a way to rise up the employment ladder, stop relying on government to sustain you, stop having children beyond what you can support by your wages, stop killing your brothers and sisters. The race problem will not go away tomorrow, but as you progress in a stable society (as numerous minorities have to date) things will even out.
America is the land of opportunity. Seize what you can today and build on it within the parameters of society. If America can elect an Afro-American president, and is poised to elect a female president, it cannot be as biased as the Afro-American community insists.
America is the land of opportunity. Seize what you can today and build on it within the parameters of society. If America can elect an Afro-American president, and is poised to elect a female president, it cannot be as biased as the Afro-American community insists.
13
The facts say otherwise, but facts mean nothing in the face of "the narrative."
For every black man — criminal or innocent — killed by a cop, 40 black men were murdered by other black men.
http://nypost.com/2015/11/06/black-lives-matters-numbers-are-bogus/
Instead of addressing the facts, The NYT cluck cluck clucks like an old hen, calling Giuliani racist.
As long as the black community will not accept ANY responsibility, and the Times keeps supporting that attitude, nothing will improve.
And the good lefty readers who strain their arms patting themselves on the back, again, never bothering to actually look at the facts, are just as complicity.
For every black man — criminal or innocent — killed by a cop, 40 black men were murdered by other black men.
http://nypost.com/2015/11/06/black-lives-matters-numbers-are-bogus/
Instead of addressing the facts, The NYT cluck cluck clucks like an old hen, calling Giuliani racist.
As long as the black community will not accept ANY responsibility, and the Times keeps supporting that attitude, nothing will improve.
And the good lefty readers who strain their arms patting themselves on the back, again, never bothering to actually look at the facts, are just as complicity.
18
Someone needs to bring to the disgraced former Mayor’s attention that racism
and the particularly fascist strain of American conservatism he represents is really laid bare by his whole right-wing line of arugments. Giuliani has decided to revive the ghost of Red Scare politics of the past.
and the particularly fascist strain of American conservatism he represents is really laid bare by his whole right-wing line of arugments. Giuliani has decided to revive the ghost of Red Scare politics of the past.
3
That's a bit disingenuous: the media should have not reported Giuliani's rants in the first place. It's free PR for his firm, and this article would not have been necessary.
3
Giuliani was never more than a rabid attack DA who was lucky enough to become mayor. On 9/10/2001 he was going to be remembered as the mediocre mayor who did not have a clue regarding how to run a major city in terms of quality of life and economic growth.
Sad to say - 9/11 saved his career, because it created the ultimate photo opportunity for someone who loves the fascist trappings of a militarized police force - but without the wherewithal to run the city on 9/12, 9/13, etc.
Rudy - good riddance. And stop slamming the door on your way out.
Sad to say - 9/11 saved his career, because it created the ultimate photo opportunity for someone who loves the fascist trappings of a militarized police force - but without the wherewithal to run the city on 9/12, 9/13, etc.
Rudy - good riddance. And stop slamming the door on your way out.
5
The editorial board knows it is lying. The cases of the two men who were black killed recently in comfrontations with police have both been grossly misrepresented by the media.
And everyone here knows that the real problem is black criminality. You folks are just too dishonest with yourselves to see the truth.
And everyone here knows that the real problem is black criminality. You folks are just too dishonest with yourselves to see the truth.
11
Before 9/11 Rudy’s claim to fame was he ran the squeegee men out of town. Rudy divided the city like no other mayor. Why is he even listened to anymore? Rudy picked Bernie Kerick to be his police commissioner. have we forgotten how that worked out? No wonder he thought nothing of the 41 shots his cops used to kill Amadou Diallo I guess in his twisted logic more blacks were killed by other blacks that very night. In Rudy’s logic all Black folks have to do is teach their children to respect cops. Rudy do you think you could teach the cops to respect Black People? Since the number of blacks killed by cops is minuscule to the number of blacks killed by other blacks we are told by Rudy we should ignore it? Please tell Rudy we pay the cops to protect us not to treat us as just collateral damage. To tell America that Blacks think their lives should matter also is racist to Rudy? I think Rudy has come to the realization that if he doesn’t put his foot in his mouth regularly people will ignore him. Rudy taught us how much he thought about the sanctity of marriage while he was still mayor. Now he wants to teach black parents on how to raise their children. We all know what a success Rudy was in raising his own children. I wonder if his son Andrew has reconciled with his learned father yet? It is just a matter of time before Rudy feels irrelevant again and we all must remember he has another foot available to put in his mouth.
6
Has the Editorial Board always been sounding off non-objectively about various subjects? Is this appropriate? I have noticed this with increasing frequency recently and I think it is not appropriate for the NEWSPAPER to have an official opinion on any subject.
As regards this particular editorial, I see no statistics at all.
There are some statistics that interest me regarding this subject, conspicuously absent from this one-sided rant: what is the ratio of black on black violence, which renders neighborhoods unlivable? What are the figures on the number of policemen killed while serving?
Does it matter to anyone that at least half of the accused policemen are not white, but Asian or Latino?
While on the subject of Chicago, what about the 60 (black) people who died over Memorial Day weekend? Rudy Giuliani evoked this horrible statistic as well but NYTimes Editorial Board clearly didn't think it was worth mentioning.
As regards this particular editorial, I see no statistics at all.
There are some statistics that interest me regarding this subject, conspicuously absent from this one-sided rant: what is the ratio of black on black violence, which renders neighborhoods unlivable? What are the figures on the number of policemen killed while serving?
Does it matter to anyone that at least half of the accused policemen are not white, but Asian or Latino?
While on the subject of Chicago, what about the 60 (black) people who died over Memorial Day weekend? Rudy Giuliani evoked this horrible statistic as well but NYTimes Editorial Board clearly didn't think it was worth mentioning.
12
The Board has never like Rudy Giuliani, based on what I have read here over the years. Although they do not like him, they should at least listen with an open mind to what he has to say. I know that the "open mind" part is very difficult for The Board, but Mr. G. has much more experience in public administration, including policing, than any Board member. His opinions deserve listening to at least, without demeaning what he says or why he says it. Open your minds, Editorial Board, you may learn something. You do not have to agree or accept it......
11
Thank you for this editorial. Yesterday when I read your coverage of Giuliani's disgusting diatribe I was disappointed to see there was not a chance to comment. You have said everything I wanted to say, and more.
If there is an afterlife, I wish Rudy to spend eternity in a room full of ferrets.
If there is an afterlife, I wish Rudy to spend eternity in a room full of ferrets.
5
Here is a man who enthusiastically champions marijuana prohibition, while the national average for racial bias in marijuana arrests is about 4 to 1, meaning black people get arrested at four times the rate as whites despite equal rates of use. If there was a chair for the "first solipsist" at the New York Philharmonic, he'd be there sitting in it every night.
2
Giuliani is way past his prime. He speaks like a prejudiced, old-fashioned, hateful New Yorker. The vast majority of young people don't feel this way anymore and that's progress. I am looking forward to a whole generation of angry white men moving along, including Giuliani, Trump, Ailes, McCain, Murdoch, O'Reilly, etc. These men speak in language of the past and with overinflated egos, can't step aside for a new and improved generation that doesn't need to disparage others to elevate themselves.
5
we live by two standards. we as individuals are expected to sit down at a table and have dialogues; our psychopathic leadrs go to war and kill, exclaiming "we don't talk to terrorists". Why do we continue to elect psychopathic murders? We deserve to get he retaliatory "kill them" responses we champion in men llike John "bomb Iran" McCain, George "either you're with us or against us" W. Bush,... will we forget and, likewise elect the deisive Donald Trump?
This past One year has been the most backwards times we have traveled to the republican have waken the Dragon of hate And Rudy Giuliani is part of this movement of hate and division. Why in the world ask a guy who is the most right wing racist, what he thinks about race and blacks. This man is a trump supporter.
We already know who he is and what he thinks. Its time for The media bring the voices that can bring us together not to divide us, enough is enough they already have help Trump by giving him all that negative voice we don't need more.
We already know who he is and what he thinks. Its time for The media bring the voices that can bring us together not to divide us, enough is enough they already have help Trump by giving him all that negative voice we don't need more.
1
Conservatives like to misinterpret "Black Lives Matter" to mean "Only Black Lives Matter."
I think what it really means is "Black Lives Matter Too."
It is an attempt to call attention to the plight of black people, not to
devalue other races.
To better reflect the true meaning, I hope the BLM leadership changes the name to "Black Lives Matter Too."
I think what it really means is "Black Lives Matter Too."
It is an attempt to call attention to the plight of black people, not to
devalue other races.
To better reflect the true meaning, I hope the BLM leadership changes the name to "Black Lives Matter Too."
4
Race relations are definitely worse under 0bama.
14
Typical liberal perspective on race. Why does the media and politicians refuse to address the underlying social problem in the black community? Senator Moynihan pointed this out decades ago but no politician wants to accept the harsh reality, Statistics confirm that blacks have (by a wide margin) the highest percentage of children born out of wedlock. Sadly, many l of these children are efectively abandoned by their parents for various reasons (drug addition, teenage motherhood, no job, no money, etc) and they effectively become society's problem. Without a strong parent to guide and nurture these children, they inevitably are lost to violence, drugs and gangs. That's not to say that a child can go bad even with good parenting. But still, good parenting and solid family values will go a long way to reducing violence and crime. Our society has lost its moral compass.
We must weed out the bad cops but to blame all police for societies failure is just wrong. We expect our police to be a psychologists, teachers, clergymen, lawyers, protectors, as well as parents. An impossible task.
We must weed out the bad cops but to blame all police for societies failure is just wrong. We expect our police to be a psychologists, teachers, clergymen, lawyers, protectors, as well as parents. An impossible task.
17
This editorial is a perfect example of how not to write editorials. From its incendiary title to its conclusion, it is filled with so many obfuscations, red herrings, rhetorical sleights-of-hand and non sequitur that it can act as a primer of unsuccessful use of rhetoric. As many pointed out in the comments below, there are two different though related issues here: the police use of force and the unacceptably high crime rates in the black community. Mayor Guilliani is guilty of changing the subject when pretending to talk about the former, he talks about the latter. The Editorial Board does the same thing in reverse. Both are guilty of not speaking the plain truth: the police have no right to shoot suspects at will AND the black community suffers from social dysfunction that blights the prospects of their ever catching up with the rest of multi-racial America.
10
Mr. G wonders what the black community is doing to police themselves and make their communities safer. This kind of statement continues the narrative that black people are separate from white America, that black peopke are responsible for crime in their community and irresponsible for not eliminating it. By making black people responsible for poverty, substandard housing, poor education, and crime Guiliani makes them the other, the lesser, the undeserving. The former Mayor continues to be what he always was -- a friend of the rich and powerful and a foe of anyone who makes his privileged pals uncomfortable. It is time to start interviewing people who are provocative -- as in smart, thoughtful, responsible, insightful -- without being offensive.
4
Until it becomes fashionable to begin taking responsibility for the social side of the problems within the black community not much will change. For the small percentage of deaths that occur at the hands of the police, a huge number of deaths flow from the black community themselves. This has been documented and reported but is blown off by institutions such as the Times because it does not fit the narrative that reduces the real systemic problem.
Crime begets violence. If you want to reduce the violence you need to reduce the crime rate. Reducing the crime rate requires much more than stopping a few police from being overly violent.
Until we see leaders in the black community step up to the Times, the activists, the President, and all these self-appointed rebel rousers and discuss the real reasons the crime and anti-social behavior are occurring and how to curb it this is just a lot of empty debate and hot air.
I can't even tell if anyone really wants to do anything other than stir the pot. Conversations don't fix things; we've been conversing for decades. Actions and time and sweat and dedication fix things. Throwing money and TV sound bites have proven their uselessness. (See Fox News and CNN and almost any government program for perfect examples.)
Let's see actions; not talk.
Crime begets violence. If you want to reduce the violence you need to reduce the crime rate. Reducing the crime rate requires much more than stopping a few police from being overly violent.
Until we see leaders in the black community step up to the Times, the activists, the President, and all these self-appointed rebel rousers and discuss the real reasons the crime and anti-social behavior are occurring and how to curb it this is just a lot of empty debate and hot air.
I can't even tell if anyone really wants to do anything other than stir the pot. Conversations don't fix things; we've been conversing for decades. Actions and time and sweat and dedication fix things. Throwing money and TV sound bites have proven their uselessness. (See Fox News and CNN and almost any government program for perfect examples.)
Let's see actions; not talk.
12
Giuliani, like so many others on different sides of this issue, is guilty of lazy thinking. It's so easy to make blanket statements about "the black community" and "police across America" where the truth is black communities are all different as are police departments in different cities. Dallas is an ironic example, a progressive police chief and department, a peaceful BLM protest, and then a horrible murder of cops. This is a time for more thoughtfulness rather than worn out and fallacious cliches.
2
no one is questioning the need for police to always be fair in how they deal with all citizens, Rudy Giuliani is pointing out the double standard in outrage from the black community when an incident occurs with a white police officer and the quiet and weirdly disinterest at the grossly disproportionate amount of blacks whom are killed by other blacks. Where are the headlines then? sadly, the black community is still playing the victim/slave card so many years later. There is an unfortunate lack of progress occuring in the black community as a whole and the degree of violence is a major outcome. The truth hurts but when the black community stops playing the victim in all areas of their lives, their children will grow up to be just regular upstanding citizens and wont feel the need for violence since they will no longer feel different from the white community. This focus on white police on black issues is a non issue the reverse way for this exact reason. However if they refuse to acknowledge the real reasons why they continue to bring this issue on themselves then I'm not sure we can help them.
14
Everybody loves to hate Rudy Giuliani, and he was a much better prosecutor than mayor, but Isaac is dead right, and so was Rudy Giuliani.
1
In another comment Michael S. shared some interesting statistics. If we assume that they are correct, it would seem to make sense for people and policy makers to focus on what is causing 97.5% of the problem (black on black crime), not on the cause of the 2.5% (police killings of black men), but this is not a simple case where these statistics are what is most relevant. In this case the *qualitative* aspect of the problem - people being killed by people who are supposed to protect them - is more important than the *quantitative* aspect of the 97.5% vs. 2.5%.
Yes, of course, we should do whatever we can to prevent black on black homicide, but that does not mean that we should not pay special attention to this comparatively small but socially very significant part of the problem.
One quick analogy: our local paper here in Ohio is running an investigative series on doctors who have sexually abused their patients. Now in statistical terms people are much more likely to be abused by people other than their doctors, but the egregious nature of abuse by a physician who should be professionally and morally dedicated to helping their patients makes physician abuse a topic worthy of special analysis and discussion. So it is with the case of police who kill unarmed and innocent black people.
Yes, of course, we should do whatever we can to prevent black on black homicide, but that does not mean that we should not pay special attention to this comparatively small but socially very significant part of the problem.
One quick analogy: our local paper here in Ohio is running an investigative series on doctors who have sexually abused their patients. Now in statistical terms people are much more likely to be abused by people other than their doctors, but the egregious nature of abuse by a physician who should be professionally and morally dedicated to helping their patients makes physician abuse a topic worthy of special analysis and discussion. So it is with the case of police who kill unarmed and innocent black people.
6
This piece and many of these comments do exactly what they are critical of Giuliano about.
Let's get real: Giuliani should say- Some police bully and abuse (but mostly not). Some Black Lives Matter voices have called for violence (but mostly not). Some attention should be paid to each of their points as there is (at least come) truth in each of their comments.
Let's not be a country where all we do I throw out babies and we keep the bath water!
Let's get real: Giuliani should say- Some police bully and abuse (but mostly not). Some Black Lives Matter voices have called for violence (but mostly not). Some attention should be paid to each of their points as there is (at least come) truth in each of their comments.
Let's not be a country where all we do I throw out babies and we keep the bath water!
3
The editorial states the last two victims were "posing no threat when they were shot." The videos are far from clear as to what happened. The editorial is drawing conclusions that have yet to be confirmed. The victims had guns and it may be very possible that the police felt threatened by the actions of the so called victims. In many of these situations, we initially hear much false information that gets clarified in time. Why doesn't the NY Times mention any of that. There are many truths in what our former Mayor is saying and I give him credit for having the courage to say it!
10
The Times board fails by simply arguing that Giuliani is a bad messenger. A debate about the future of crime in black communities is not only incomplete but woefully inadequate unless there is consideration of the community based contributors to exceptionally high crime rates. Police violence is a problem but it is made worse by police whose job is near impossible. Further, unless the BLM movement is held to the same standard of political correctness as are its critics, the general public will continue to reject a message that is marred with protesters who yell racists remarks, who have called for violence and where violence against police by protesters is a too common occurrence. The Times fails by being a critic to some and an apologist for others
6
The inauthenticity of the prose in this editorial is astonishing. Consider this "We can only hope that in the heat and anger of this wretched summer, Americans’ impulse to pull together is stronger than the divisiveness of race-baiting moralists." Nothing like being called a "race-baiting moralists" to move the conversation along. I'm curious about what the editorial board suggest as a solution? My personal opinion is that the courts take care of these things with the same imperfection that comes with the administration of law everywhere.
8
Guiliani is a loser, a hateful one at that. I am sure he will be a hit on Fox for weeks to come with his hate mongering. To me the problem is guns. There are too many in this country and we should not be allowing civilians to have more than single shot weapons. Cops need more training and maybe learn to shoot once in the leg or arm, they do not need to empty their magazine into the chest of the person they stopped and have control of. There are bad people on both sides of the issue - cops and civilians - but we need to stop with the rhetoric that shows up on the 24 hour news cycles and start with some solutions or this is going to get worse, especially with Trump being allowed to speak on TV whenever he wants with his rants.
3
So Rudy tells the truth; that black violence is mostly on other blacks, that gangs are one of the greatest problems. He doesn't state the obvious: that fed welfare has destroyed the black family structure producing feral young men with no one to control them. It's been going on for quite some time yet no one will state the truth.
13
Sadly predictable by the Editorial Board. I didn't hear Mr. Giuliani saying that there is not a problem with bad police officers or some of their wrongful acts. But despite what the Board and many commenters in here support, the false narrative indeed does come from those who advance the idea that the biggest threat to young black men is a police officer or that there is a systematic effort to hunt down and kill blacks by the police nationwide. The data and common sense shows this is just not true.
What is sadly true is that too many people are so blinded by their ideology and in maintaining the race roiling machinery that they refuse to accept the complexity of the problem of crime and justice in this country by making it a one dimensional cry - if only there weren't these racist cops blacks would be safe. Why can't both valid issues be spoken of and addressed, that of police brutality and the wretched data of blacks killing other blacks? Why this absurd taboo and hushed tones when black crime comes up? Why are cities like Chicago wallowing in a horrible summer of deaths and shootings off the table unless a cop is involved in it?
The hypocrisy of some on this issue is again a big reason we won't get progress on either issue. Saying we need to address police brutality does not make you anti-cop; saying we need to address black violence does not make you a racist!
What is sadly true is that too many people are so blinded by their ideology and in maintaining the race roiling machinery that they refuse to accept the complexity of the problem of crime and justice in this country by making it a one dimensional cry - if only there weren't these racist cops blacks would be safe. Why can't both valid issues be spoken of and addressed, that of police brutality and the wretched data of blacks killing other blacks? Why this absurd taboo and hushed tones when black crime comes up? Why are cities like Chicago wallowing in a horrible summer of deaths and shootings off the table unless a cop is involved in it?
The hypocrisy of some on this issue is again a big reason we won't get progress on either issue. Saying we need to address police brutality does not make you anti-cop; saying we need to address black violence does not make you a racist!
9
It's funny Mr Giuliana keeps comparing what's happening right now to black on black crime & Chicago. There will always be black on black/white on white/brown on brown/blue on blue/green on green crime! Chicago's crime is mainly gang related. No one cares much for gangs killing each other in comparison to Innocent lives gunned down by the Police. It's funny he's originally Italian where the gangs of New York originates from. They brought gangs into America (generally speaking). He should stop trivialising what's happening to innocent people on both sides. So many Innocent black lives have been lost, caught on camera/not. Which has fuelled shooting innocent Police officers. Black lives matter movement cannot control who uses their movement as an excuse for personal vendetta against any Police or to shoot police. It's ultimately not their mission to put police in harm's way but to find a resolution to bad cops' shooting of black men.
2
Rudy is a political hack who happens to earn a great deal of money (like millions annually) giving red meat speeches to like-minded right wing groups who appreciate the echo of their own intolerant thoughts. He's good at it but I wish he'd spare the rational public from his thoughtless rantings. That would be especially welcome at a time when national healing is needed more than ever.
2
If Rudy Giuliani's comments were merely sincerely held racism and implicit assertion of white superiority, that would be one thing. But one suspects that, having been denied a shot at the 'going-begging' nomination as Trump's Vice President by the Constitution's overt discouragement of a ticket where both candidates reside in the same state (thus losing its Electoral College vote automatically), Rudy is now angling for his dream job -- FBI Director -- when President (lord forbid) Trump fires James Comey "for cause" in his first 100 days. Sorry Rudy, but if the country comes to its senses, you will have to remain merely a very Junior G-Man (albeit with a talk radio fan base).
To append to my previous comment: the Times has many too many editorials these days. Their ubiquity makes them appear to be little more than the work of another columnist. The Editorial Board needs to keep its powder dry and resist the temptation to comment on everything. If its editorials are few and far between, they are much more likely to be taken seriously. The commonplace will never have gravitas nor authority, especially in this age where opinion is largely proffered and accepted as fact.
4
Thanks, Rudy, for stating one side of the discussion in terms that are so absolute that there is no room for discussion, compromise or solution. Not helpful.
2
The President's from Chicago. It would be really fantastic if he would go back there next year and try to unite that divided city, using all the good will he has accumulated in the community.
But he wants to work in private equity.
But he wants to work in private equity.
5
The NY Times, and others, refusal to address self destructive tendencies within the black community to their disproportionate struggles in American life is like claiming smoking cigarettes has no side effects.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
The evidence is overwhelming.
White America will happily point out the social/educational/criminal mistakes other whites make and how it impacts their life trajectory, but say it about blacks and you're labeled a racist.
Sadly, Rudy is spot on.
8
Diallo, Louima, Dorismund? Giuliani is the last person to
talk about race. His regime was remarkable for its racial
animosity to the black and minority communities. The last
thing anyoneneeds is a lecture from that paragon of virtue,
the thrice married former Mayor.
Ask Donna Hanover eh?
talk about race. His regime was remarkable for its racial
animosity to the black and minority communities. The last
thing anyoneneeds is a lecture from that paragon of virtue,
the thrice married former Mayor.
Ask Donna Hanover eh?
6
Compare the homicide rate in Chicago to NYC over the years since 1990. The policies of the former NYC mayor made a massive reduction in the murder rate, and other violent and non-violent crimes.
Giuliani talks about the police like he's their spokesman. He's not.
A police officer in my own family despises Giuliani as a racist and a divider who tries to clock himself with the police force to make himself seem like a big man and a 'law and order' guy when he's just a right wing thug.
A police officer in my own family despises Giuliani as a racist and a divider who tries to clock himself with the police force to make himself seem like a big man and a 'law and order' guy when he's just a right wing thug.
6
A question regarding respect: Each of your editorials that mentions the presumptive Democratic nominee is careful to call her "Secretary Clinton", though she is not a member of the cabinet at present. Why then does this editorial not refer to "Mayor Giuliani"?
6
true, historically people are referred to with the title of the highest office achieved. out of respect, it should be Mayor Giuliani...although I am not a fan
Traditionally, governors, senators, ambassadors, military officers and cabinet secretaries are addressed by their titles even after they leave office or service. This courtesy is typically not extended to members of the House of Representatives or to elected officials at lower levels of government.
It's just accepted protocol, not the NYT favoring Clinton.
For once.
It's just accepted protocol, not the NYT favoring Clinton.
For once.
1
I lived in New York City when Giuliani was Mayor. His authoritarian personality has grown far, far worse. At the time, he wanted to "clean up" (expunge, persecute, imprison) anything he deemed inappropriate, "immoral" or unusual. He is and was a moral puritan, which means that he excuses his own hypocrisy (lies, infidelity, and corruption) while accusing others of it. Even then, he was a paranoid figure and a zealot. He used 9/11 to bolster his demagoguery. The man is pathetic. I remember clearly how he used a tank (or tank-like vehicle) to expel squatters in the Lower East Side. He fancies himself a kind of Mussolini and Putin-esque figure. If you look closely at his face, his grimace and his eyes, you can see the hate.
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/31/nyregion/riot-police-remove-31-squatte...
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/31/nyregion/riot-police-remove-31-squatte...
6
All people of decency must take heart because a coalition of about 40% white electorate and the overwhelming majorities of various minority groups that make up this our great United States of America will, in November presidential election, reject the venom spewed by people like Giuliani, Trump, Right Wing Talk Radio and many characters at Fox News Channel. The coalition that elected and reelected Obama will come out in November to elect Hillary Clinton the next President of our already great country.
1
Jockeying for a position in the Trump administration. Like Sec of Health and Human Services? Urban Peace Czar? AG? Working the get tough on crime angle.
In the new Trump administration, the more outrageous, fear mongering, racist statement you can make, the more you are noticed.
In the new Trump administration, the more outrageous, fear mongering, racist statement you can make, the more you are noticed.
6
To start the healing, we need an honest conversation on race.
4
You can't have an "honest conversation" when the first thing out of the chute you are told that you had better not bring up or discuss certain things. But then, to be honest, some don't want a conversation, they merely want to lecture.
I recall Guiliani's daughter being caught shoplifting as a student while at Harvard - the store didn't even want to CHARGE her because she was his daughter. He doens't seem to understand his children's white privilege. I resent his racist words.
194
Exactly! A black shoplifter would have been handcuffed on the ground.
Was that white privilege as you are oh so quick to assume, or wealth/position privilege? Were one of the Obama's daughters caught in something similar do you think they would be charged? Resent all you want, but it's ashamed that you must view everything through some racial filter and wallow in your apparent guilt.
2
Really? That's white privilege and not Mayor privilege? My kids get that privilege too? The simplicity of the privilege narrative(good concept, but everyone stopped examining at white and male) in one comment.
2
But black America does have a very serious crime problem. Black Americans are, roughly, 10 times as homicidal as white Americans, who in turn are several times more homicidal than citizens of most other countries in the developed world. So not only are many more blacks killed by civilians (mostly black) than by police; 40 times more according to another comment in this thread - but the whole tone of relations between blacks and police is set by the high crime level which means more interactions, more arrests and more bad blood on both sides. Certainly, it is difficult to imagine this tone of relations being much better without a major decrease in crime and gangs in the black community.
Is it really racist to point this out?
Is it really racist to point this out?
24
It's really racist to point this out and not realize that racism is the reason that black communities suffer from these facts.
1
Either racist or sadly ignorant to fail to understand that there is always more than one problem at a time. Too many Trump and Giuliani seem u able to entertain such complexity.
What makes this point racist is that people who bring up black on black in the context of police brutality have very little interest in reducing black on black crime; they bring it up because they think it is a useful way to change the subject from police executions of unarmed black men for trivial offenses. Or to somehow suggest that black people deserve to have their constitutional right to a trial, jury and due process of law violated. If you really are concerned about black on black crime, r a, you should join an organization working to stop black on black crime. In the meantime, the issue Black Lives Matter is organized around is a valid onethat this country needs to address, and that white people should stop avoiding: Police should not execute people for trivial offenses, and police should respect the constitution.
2
Why is it that in their ( All Lives Matter- Mr Giuliani -DT -Fox News) speech they refer to black people in a way that implies they are not American? One can almost infer, listening to them, that black people have a gene which predisposes them to insolence, violence and crime. It's sad to hear them talk about race. They are educated but have nothing of import to add to the conversation. I wish they would just stop and go back to wasting tax payers money with the investigation of email servers. We are so desensitized to violence that even when we SEE a murder take place that we just shrug it off. And as much as they espouse law and order they are fine with some police having a "00" license. Judge jury and executioner.
I appreciate that the lives of police officers are at risk and there are dangerous people out there who would do them (and us) harm. They make a difference in all our lives. But just as I applaud them for the good they do the police forces need to understand black people are not enemy combatants in a war where they should be treated like- enemy combatants. Most black people are not criminals, just as most white people aren't criminals, just as most Asians aren't criminals, just as most Hispanic people...
I appreciate that the lives of police officers are at risk and there are dangerous people out there who would do them (and us) harm. They make a difference in all our lives. But just as I applaud them for the good they do the police forces need to understand black people are not enemy combatants in a war where they should be treated like- enemy combatants. Most black people are not criminals, just as most white people aren't criminals, just as most Asians aren't criminals, just as most Hispanic people...
7
Yes .. and running around dong commercials for LIFE- LOC, trying to scare you into using it ... real great guy .........
5
I was wondering when someone was going to mention the NRA's usual fallback line, 'The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.' Given that not only were many 'good-guy' marchers and bystanders armed at the protest in Dallas, but also many well-armed and WELL-TRAINED, 'good-guy' police officers. So, a question for the NRA . . . how many good guys with guns, exactly, does it take to stop a bad guy with a gun?
10
I remember just after Barack Obama was elected President; going to the local mall and seeing the difference in almost every black person I crossed paths with. I have seen that hopefulness erode since then. It is people like Giuliani and his ilk that pushed back against any change to the status quo that has formed the toxic precipitate of violence and fear faced today.
6
It is not a fictional statistic that the majority of violent crime in the black community is black-on-black crime. In fact, the DOJ's own studies indicate that every racial/ethnic community's biggest enemies are themselves. White one white crime is 42% of crime in the white community. Black on black crime is 62% of crime in the black community. Hispanic on Hispanic is 38% of crime in their community.
The problem with conjuring up stats for police shootings of various demographics is, according to CNN, that most of these numbers are self-reported and are, hence unreliable. All sources (regardless of political slant) acknowledge that more whites are killed by cops but that a higher per capita percentage of blacks are shot during police altercations.
The issue with citing any police on suspect shootings is that the stats ignore circumstance. That is... how often were police shootings unwarranted and avoidable and how many were simply the unfortunate result of the gunfight being started by the suspect during the commission of other crimes?Unfortunately (again, according to CNN), we may never know, since those sorts of stats are not readily captured and/or compiled for reporting. The FBI keeps better records than most, but those stats are frequently ignored since they are not systematically captured, 100% of the time.
There is a problem in this country. The idea that disagreements are easier solved with violence than they are with discourse is a real issue. Let's work on that!
The problem with conjuring up stats for police shootings of various demographics is, according to CNN, that most of these numbers are self-reported and are, hence unreliable. All sources (regardless of political slant) acknowledge that more whites are killed by cops but that a higher per capita percentage of blacks are shot during police altercations.
The issue with citing any police on suspect shootings is that the stats ignore circumstance. That is... how often were police shootings unwarranted and avoidable and how many were simply the unfortunate result of the gunfight being started by the suspect during the commission of other crimes?Unfortunately (again, according to CNN), we may never know, since those sorts of stats are not readily captured and/or compiled for reporting. The FBI keeps better records than most, but those stats are frequently ignored since they are not systematically captured, 100% of the time.
There is a problem in this country. The idea that disagreements are easier solved with violence than they are with discourse is a real issue. Let's work on that!
8
Rudy Giuliani is a grand example of a consummate flap jaw, a talking head that speaksgarbled nonsense.
He’s the guy who brought in then fired Bill Bratton as Police Commissioner - the guy who with Jack Maples actually started to do something sensible about crime. He was too successful and Rudy wanted all the credit.
For a moment or two or three he captured people’s imagination as mayor of New York. Ultimately, Rudy Giuliani was also the guy responsible for establishing the city’s major crisis center in the World Trade Center against the recommendations who argued against it.
Rudy after 9/11 essentially attempted to seize the city government and make himself eligible for a third term. Thank You, Rudy, democracy worked well in spite of you.
So did the city. Bloomberg had his faults, but compared to Giuliani, not even close.
Bernie Kerik, remember him Rudy? The now convicted felon who’s under a supervised prison release until October, after serving more than three years in prison for corruption.
And, how could Rudy confusion Amadou Diallo with Abner Luima. Diallo was the guy who was killed in what essentially was an accidental killing prompted by an accidental discharge that brought on contagious shooting. No one was convicted or went to jail.
The "Giuliani time" guy was Louima who was assaulted, tortured and sodomized with a broom handle in a bit of Rudy over-enthusiasm
He’s the guy who brought in then fired Bill Bratton as Police Commissioner - the guy who with Jack Maples actually started to do something sensible about crime. He was too successful and Rudy wanted all the credit.
For a moment or two or three he captured people’s imagination as mayor of New York. Ultimately, Rudy Giuliani was also the guy responsible for establishing the city’s major crisis center in the World Trade Center against the recommendations who argued against it.
Rudy after 9/11 essentially attempted to seize the city government and make himself eligible for a third term. Thank You, Rudy, democracy worked well in spite of you.
So did the city. Bloomberg had his faults, but compared to Giuliani, not even close.
Bernie Kerik, remember him Rudy? The now convicted felon who’s under a supervised prison release until October, after serving more than three years in prison for corruption.
And, how could Rudy confusion Amadou Diallo with Abner Luima. Diallo was the guy who was killed in what essentially was an accidental killing prompted by an accidental discharge that brought on contagious shooting. No one was convicted or went to jail.
The "Giuliani time" guy was Louima who was assaulted, tortured and sodomized with a broom handle in a bit of Rudy over-enthusiasm
8
I'm not sure which is more patently ridiculous: Rudy blaming people of color for their predicament vis-a-vis over-zealous and possibly racially-biased police officers who shoot first and ask questions later, or Trump who claims he will be the "law and order" president by promising to bring back torture just after he deports all Muslims and Mexicans (the latter group once they finish building his wall).
8
And this coming from the 'man' who instituted "Stop and Frisk," which was deemed unconstitutional in a landmark ruling in 2013.
9
Like it or not (and constitutional or not), it also cut crime rates in NYC in a way that has never been so dramatic and never been as successful, before or after it was struck down. Consequently, more people are victims of crime and there are higher crime-related deaths.
Unfortunately, that is the trade off.
What baffles the centrist is that both sides make little sense in their arguments. Conservatives celebrate tighter law enforcement and give them wide discretion to do whatever they need to, but refuse to support tighter weapon control legislation that might lessen the availability. Liberals are just as illogical. They insist that tight law enforcement is un-American, but then are also shocked and disappointed when more lax enforcement results in higher crime rates and violent crime deaths.
Unfortunately, that is the trade off.
What baffles the centrist is that both sides make little sense in their arguments. Conservatives celebrate tighter law enforcement and give them wide discretion to do whatever they need to, but refuse to support tighter weapon control legislation that might lessen the availability. Liberals are just as illogical. They insist that tight law enforcement is un-American, but then are also shocked and disappointed when more lax enforcement results in higher crime rates and violent crime deaths.
9
"...here comes Rudolph Giuliani, bringing his trademark brew of poisonous disinformation to the discussion."
Indeed. I was disgusted to read of his most recent bilious comments on "race" but I have to ask: why is he a fixture on the "media punditry" circuit? I expect Fox News to trot out him and his ilk to spew that nonsense but I am disappointed that the producers of the so-called "Sunday" news shows also continue to give him a forum.
But hey, at least he no longer references 9/11 in every other sentence.
Indeed. I was disgusted to read of his most recent bilious comments on "race" but I have to ask: why is he a fixture on the "media punditry" circuit? I expect Fox News to trot out him and his ilk to spew that nonsense but I am disappointed that the producers of the so-called "Sunday" news shows also continue to give him a forum.
But hey, at least he no longer references 9/11 in every other sentence.
8
Sure, stifle speach you don't agree with, that's what was intended by our founding fathers. Free speach for all (unless I find your speach offensive).
What the mayor said was we are ignoring 99% of violent crime. I think we can have a conversation about the high levels of violent crime in poor communities while at the same time we talk about improving how minority's are treated in their daily interactions with the police.
The argument isn't that black on black crime is unique; we live in segregated communities, it would make sense that crime would tend to be local. The crisis is the overal level of crime in the inner cities of our major metropolitan areas. High levels of violent crime put everyone on edge (police included). Until we start to have a discussion about how we can best address the safety of people living in the inner cities we are not going to make progress.
What the mayor said was we are ignoring 99% of violent crime. I think we can have a conversation about the high levels of violent crime in poor communities while at the same time we talk about improving how minority's are treated in their daily interactions with the police.
The argument isn't that black on black crime is unique; we live in segregated communities, it would make sense that crime would tend to be local. The crisis is the overal level of crime in the inner cities of our major metropolitan areas. High levels of violent crime put everyone on edge (police included). Until we start to have a discussion about how we can best address the safety of people living in the inner cities we are not going to make progress.
This, now this, when Giuliani speaks, this is what make me ashamed to be white; or male, or American, or in any way shape or form having anything at all in common with this completely useless excuse for a human being.
I find it extremely difficult to think of anything more offensive than his comments. These simply outrageous comments should be denigrated at every opportunity.
I find it extremely difficult to think of anything more offensive than his comments. These simply outrageous comments should be denigrated at every opportunity.
7
Rudy Giuliani is that Archie Bunker type of racist - he's a bigot who doesn't realize he's a bigot...though this is real life so it's not funny.
What Giuliani doesn't understand about why "black lives matter" need to be stated is because people like Giuliani do not value black lives the way he does white lives. I remember back in 1999 when Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times when he reached into his pocket to get his wallet after the police asked him to show I.D. and Giuliani refused to even acknowledge that the police were in the wrong. If an unarmed hipster from Brooklyn or a white wall street executive on the upper west side were shot 41 times by police, would he have defended them so vigorously?
What Giuliani doesn't understand about why "black lives matter" need to be stated is because people like Giuliani do not value black lives the way he does white lives. I remember back in 1999 when Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times when he reached into his pocket to get his wallet after the police asked him to show I.D. and Giuliani refused to even acknowledge that the police were in the wrong. If an unarmed hipster from Brooklyn or a white wall street executive on the upper west side were shot 41 times by police, would he have defended them so vigorously?
6
I am never happy when my president goes to Dallas, Texas.
5
Truth tellers r seldom appreciated, and when the truth conflicts with received notions of the liberal media, including the Times,he or she is bound to be highly criticized. First, give credit where credit is due. City was a safer place under Giuliani who did not hesitate to adopt the "broken windows" approach to solving crime, to arrest those accused of petty abuses of the law on assumption that they may have been guilty of much more. He also put the squee-gee folks out of business, redeveloped Times Square, smashed the Gambino crime ring, and eliminated graft and other nefarious activities associated with the Fulton Fish Market. Giuliani's remarks re black on black crime also merit attention.The hood is a dangerous place, whether in the Bronx, Sandtown, Chicago's south side or Stockton, which may explain why our c-in-c and his family have yet to set foot there. In our housing projects one lives under the tyranny of drug gangs and daily life is a struggle to survive. When I was a dean at an inner city h.s., I paid visits to homes of students who resided in low income neighborhoods,and "croyez moi,"families lived in fear of their lives.Giuliani has drawn attention to this problem, and is right to do so. Problem with Ed.Board is that members have no skin in the game, live in gentrified neighborhoods where crime is non existent.No wonder you r so eager to sanctimoniously preach to others.
9
Besides calling for more racial justice and conversations on race, have groups like Black Lives Matter proposed any concrete solutions to the problem of unjustified shootings of African Americans by the police? Since no reasonable person can defined an unwarranted police shooting, Black Lives Matter has an easy subject to mobilize public support and non African American liberals can feel good.Giuliani is also an easy target,but people forget that he got almost twenty percent of the African America vote when he ran for mayor in his second term. See http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/06/nyregion/the-1997-elections-the-mayor-.... That figure is astounding for a Republican in NYC, but that support indicate the weariness with violence in the Black community.
Lets have the discussion on police violence against African Americans, but we also should not avoid uncomfortable facts. BLM is simply a protest movement which is intellectually stuck in the 1960s and this editorial reflects easy moral outrage. I am concerned about all unjustified killings of Black people, but our conversations about race should articulate some concrete goals for stopping the police violence which is unwarranted and black on black violence which is also unwarranted.
Lets have the discussion on police violence against African Americans, but we also should not avoid uncomfortable facts. BLM is simply a protest movement which is intellectually stuck in the 1960s and this editorial reflects easy moral outrage. I am concerned about all unjustified killings of Black people, but our conversations about race should articulate some concrete goals for stopping the police violence which is unwarranted and black on black violence which is also unwarranted.
8
Not helpful when statements are made that are purposely misleading, such as "Homicide data do show that black victims are most often killed by black assailants. (They also reveal that whites tend to be killed by whites.)"
Since the majority of people in the US are white - and only a relatively small minority are black - the statement that "whites tend to be killed by whites" is not at all relevant to the fact that "Homicide data do show that black victims are most often killed by black assailants". To suggest that somehow they are relevant to each other in an article focusing on separating truth from slogans is just another example of the NYT bias. This should be corrected - but I doubt that it will be.
Since the majority of people in the US are white - and only a relatively small minority are black - the statement that "whites tend to be killed by whites" is not at all relevant to the fact that "Homicide data do show that black victims are most often killed by black assailants". To suggest that somehow they are relevant to each other in an article focusing on separating truth from slogans is just another example of the NYT bias. This should be corrected - but I doubt that it will be.
2
Giuliani was referring to murder rates, which are an order of magnitude higher among blacks than among whites. That most killing is intraracial leads to the obvious corollary that far more blacks are killed by other blacks than by whites.
Sterling was posing no threat? The reason the police were there was a complaint about a person with a gun threatening people. In both of these recent police shootings the story is all about the emotion and drama of the moment. The facts will only come out a week later when the court of public opinion has long since made up its mind.
8
The poor guy Giuliani is teetering on edge of irrelevance and his contributions on the right wing do not help to ease politics in this country. Every time this guy turns up he is offering solutions that do not help to heal but to divide more. He has not been able to overcome the fact that he did not win the presidential race because he is such a divider in this nation that needs ever more people in politics with vision for tomorrow and ability to embrace or govern for all. Giuliani should just go away.
5
How the left and politically correct is bringing us down. Hurray and Great to hear Rudy's sound, proven principles; they work.
When blacks and whites put their fists down we'll talk.
We can always make our outstanding criminal justice system better.
What's going to be more difficult and generation consuming is educating citizens to respect authority; whether it is a teacher, parent or police. Our culture is based on respect for others and then that respect comes back to you.
When blacks and whites put their fists down we'll talk.
We can always make our outstanding criminal justice system better.
What's going to be more difficult and generation consuming is educating citizens to respect authority; whether it is a teacher, parent or police. Our culture is based on respect for others and then that respect comes back to you.
5
Forgive me but you are mistaken.
Our culture is not built on respect, its about one group lording over everyone else. Every ethnic group that came here was disrespected by the general population until they assimilated. Then they did it to the next group. For generations.
Further, this country was built on conquering people and taking whatever they had of value. How can anyone respect their authority? When you have a group who comes to your home and tell you its theirs, take it by force along with all your belongings then tell you that you should be thankful for their "help".
The Native Americans would take our leaders at their word with worthless peace treaties while they slaughtered them. Only when they fought back were they dangerous.
Black people have been told to be patient, change is coming and yet they still get brutalized. Are we not citizens deserving of protection? God knows we've been here for a very long time. You'd think everyone would get over it by now. Sadly, we see that is not the case.
Respect is earned, not given. And no, we are not docile children who have to be taught to "respect authority". That is so condescending. How about authority respect its citizens? All of them, not just a select group.
Our culture is not built on respect, its about one group lording over everyone else. Every ethnic group that came here was disrespected by the general population until they assimilated. Then they did it to the next group. For generations.
Further, this country was built on conquering people and taking whatever they had of value. How can anyone respect their authority? When you have a group who comes to your home and tell you its theirs, take it by force along with all your belongings then tell you that you should be thankful for their "help".
The Native Americans would take our leaders at their word with worthless peace treaties while they slaughtered them. Only when they fought back were they dangerous.
Black people have been told to be patient, change is coming and yet they still get brutalized. Are we not citizens deserving of protection? God knows we've been here for a very long time. You'd think everyone would get over it by now. Sadly, we see that is not the case.
Respect is earned, not given. And no, we are not docile children who have to be taught to "respect authority". That is so condescending. How about authority respect its citizens? All of them, not just a select group.
I see a lot of confusion with very little insight or wisdom in the comments to this article. That may be a clue that something is not right but without a clear definition of the problem there can be no singular or multiple solution to the problem.
1
What an inappropriate timing for Rudi Giuliani to speak in his lecturing tone to stir up even more violence. All he was doing is displaying his white power. This Country is a pluralistic one in every aspect we can think of. Yet they want their Country back, from whom I wonder.
Republican presumptive nominee Trump is adding more fire to that.
At this time where is the soothing voice , marching with those peaceful protesters ?
We do not need words when action and togetherness is necessary.
Republican presumptive nominee Trump is adding more fire to that.
At this time where is the soothing voice , marching with those peaceful protesters ?
We do not need words when action and togetherness is necessary.
2
The same may be said of yet another lecture and poor timing from the president, who is often quick to jump in the fray even when the facts don't support it.
The canard that "Black Lives Matter" is itself a racist suggestion that other lives don't has already been very well disposed of in many quarters. It's called context and it has not been lacking. I blame the producers of cable and network news and talk shows for booking Giuliani (and others of his ilk) as a guest, knowing full well the can of disinformation worms he'd open and disseminate. It's time for producers of these shows to stop booking people because of their prominent names, former jobs or predictably poisonous positions. Instead book guests who have something meaningful to contribute.
5
One of the issues that gets overlooked when people are analyzing the recent spate of killings is violence is more a poverty issue than a racial issue. Poverty is a significant issue as a crime indicator. One of the reasons black on black violence is so prevalent is 26% of blacks in America live below the poverty line versus 11% of whites. This is not an excuse for violence but it helps explain the racial disparity in crime rates.
8
Any idea why police don't kill Indians, Japanese, Chinese with the same regularity? If someone is racist, it should be consistent?
I think its more to do with the high degree of blacks committing crimes --- it only natural human reaction to be more on guard and trigger easy when encountering them.
No easy solution to this problem, but this is not racism. This is more like experiential behaviour. It can only be changed over time when blacks stop committing crimes with outlier proportions. That will and should come with right education at home, outside and workplace
I think its more to do with the high degree of blacks committing crimes --- it only natural human reaction to be more on guard and trigger easy when encountering them.
No easy solution to this problem, but this is not racism. This is more like experiential behaviour. It can only be changed over time when blacks stop committing crimes with outlier proportions. That will and should come with right education at home, outside and workplace
13
Your ignorance of race relations in the United States might be the reason you draw this simplistic and wrong-headed conclusion. You are also assuming the black men who were killed were committing crimes. Where is the proof for this?
Your attitude is patronizing at best, if not completely based in stereotypes.
Your attitude is patronizing at best, if not completely based in stereotypes.
1
John,
Go to South Side Chicago. Tell me how many Indians or Japanese you run across....and then look at how many African Americans there are there.
People show racism to those they think are 'other' or those who they decide to "keep down". It's not a blanket behavior.
Go to South Side Chicago. Tell me how many Indians or Japanese you run across....and then look at how many African Americans there are there.
People show racism to those they think are 'other' or those who they decide to "keep down". It's not a blanket behavior.
1
63 people were shot, and at least 4 killed on the July 4th weekend in minority areas of Chicago. Gunfire and violence like that does not draw the 'best and the finest' police candidates to the force. For even the absolute best cops it's like a war zone where their presence is about as effective at suppressing violence as a chaplain administering to the wounded in a war zone.
8
The data simply does not support the very founding ideas of the protests, so the NY Times editors transparently appeal to emotion by bringing up individual cases and using words such as “blood-red truth” or “brutalising” without any supporting evidence. This is exactly the wrong way to advance the debate - all it does it stir up anger. It is not hard to come up with many cases of murders that would get any given group of people riled up. Is that the goal of the NY Times? When they talk about the divisiveness of race-baiting moralists, they should look in the mirror.