The obvious fact that a corporation is not subject to the same punishments for crime that you and I are, i.e. imprisonment, should make it equally obvious that a corporation is not a "person" which can avail itself of any of the rights we - as people - can claim, i.e. free speech.
8
Simple; out of business and into jail from the top on down including board members, CEO, all the way to the lowest. They did it ON PURPOSE and lied on purpose, no way around it. Fraud. Period. Don't let them off the hook.
Next give the owners back every cent original new MRSP no matter how many VW cars they bought or leased during that time period. If the automobile owner had more than one, then for each they get the full amount of each vehicle back at new price not blue book including what was paid to the banksters. Trillions not billions. And never buy another VW or Audi or Porsche or Bentley or Lamborghini ever again. Lied on purpose, out of business and into jail on purpose. Only fair way. In Latin "Nemo Est Supra Legis."
Next give the owners back every cent original new MRSP no matter how many VW cars they bought or leased during that time period. If the automobile owner had more than one, then for each they get the full amount of each vehicle back at new price not blue book including what was paid to the banksters. Trillions not billions. And never buy another VW or Audi or Porsche or Bentley or Lamborghini ever again. Lied on purpose, out of business and into jail on purpose. Only fair way. In Latin "Nemo Est Supra Legis."
3
While the NYT is demanding full force of the law against VW, how about redirecting some of that fervor towards 12 million other lawbreakers: illegal aliens. And seek compensation for the US taxpayers who foot the bills.
5
The Climate Joke Shakedown continues. No Victims here.
3
Deliberate cheating, which VW has confessed to, is probably as bad as this sort of thing gets. No sympathy at all for VW.
It's worth remembering who the real victim here is: it is all of us. VW cars produce excessive pollutants in the air that we all breath, not just VW car owners. I would like to see more of the compensation spent in a way that compensates us all, such as the network of charging stations that may accelerate the acceptance of all-electric cars.
VW owners should receive compensation for the loss of value of their vehicles, and for their time; but they have not suffered greater harm than the rest of us from the pollution. Punitive damages are appropriate here, but they should be spent on the public good.
And, the lawyers don't deserve to become wealthy. This was something of a slam-dunk case; they didn't put a lot at risk, and they didn't do most of the work. They don't deserve excess compensation.
There is a lesson for regulators - as Ronald Reagan put it, they need to trust but verify. Why did it take so long to catch VW - perhaps a bit more vigilance in monitoring regulatory compliance would have caught this sooner. As computers assume greater control of our vehicles (and everything else) there are lessons here.
Finally, we must not confuse this with the airbag issues. VW deliberately broke the law. The airbag problems were NOT caused by deliberate criminal actions, they are a result of technology unexpectedly failing, a far lesser offense.
It's worth remembering who the real victim here is: it is all of us. VW cars produce excessive pollutants in the air that we all breath, not just VW car owners. I would like to see more of the compensation spent in a way that compensates us all, such as the network of charging stations that may accelerate the acceptance of all-electric cars.
VW owners should receive compensation for the loss of value of their vehicles, and for their time; but they have not suffered greater harm than the rest of us from the pollution. Punitive damages are appropriate here, but they should be spent on the public good.
And, the lawyers don't deserve to become wealthy. This was something of a slam-dunk case; they didn't put a lot at risk, and they didn't do most of the work. They don't deserve excess compensation.
There is a lesson for regulators - as Ronald Reagan put it, they need to trust but verify. Why did it take so long to catch VW - perhaps a bit more vigilance in monitoring regulatory compliance would have caught this sooner. As computers assume greater control of our vehicles (and everything else) there are lessons here.
Finally, we must not confuse this with the airbag issues. VW deliberately broke the law. The airbag problems were NOT caused by deliberate criminal actions, they are a result of technology unexpectedly failing, a far lesser offense.
3
VW violated law and is being penalized.
Why, however, is VW receiving the largest penalty in history? GM hid problems that directly caused deaths. Both companies are, indeed, in need of punishment, why aren't more people outraged regarding GM? Are there manslaughter charges against GM?
If readers have thoughts or facts about this, please share as I'd like to learn.
Why, however, is VW receiving the largest penalty in history? GM hid problems that directly caused deaths. Both companies are, indeed, in need of punishment, why aren't more people outraged regarding GM? Are there manslaughter charges against GM?
If readers have thoughts or facts about this, please share as I'd like to learn.
16
As an owner of one of these 'formerly known as clean' diesels, I feel the compensation outlined here is more than fair (for the owners). VW committed fraud and should be held accountable; owners have a right to expect to be compensated for the (quite significant) loss in value, but I disagree with the characterization of VW owners as 'victims'.
I don't personally bear the cost of my vehicle's nitrous oxide emissions. Those costs are shared by the general public. Nitrous oxide is a greenhouse gas about 300 times more potent than CO2. While I'm getting nearly 50 miles a gallon on the highway, I'm contributing the CO2 equivalent of a car that gets less than 18 mpg. Plus, I received a $2000 tax credit when I bought the vehicle. So who's the victim here?
VW owes to the public as much or more than it owes to the owners.
I don't personally bear the cost of my vehicle's nitrous oxide emissions. Those costs are shared by the general public. Nitrous oxide is a greenhouse gas about 300 times more potent than CO2. While I'm getting nearly 50 miles a gallon on the highway, I'm contributing the CO2 equivalent of a car that gets less than 18 mpg. Plus, I received a $2000 tax credit when I bought the vehicle. So who's the victim here?
VW owes to the public as much or more than it owes to the owners.
23
You call this pollution ?
Ask the Japanese how much water from Fukushima has gone into the Pacific Ocean that we share, or how much radiation is in the air from Ukraine's Chernobyl.
How about the traffic in California, the roadways crawl.
The amount of pollution caused by these cars is miniscule compared to those ongoing situations. The VW situation is a minor blip.
This is political and most likely driven by US car manufacturers.
Ask the Japanese how much water from Fukushima has gone into the Pacific Ocean that we share, or how much radiation is in the air from Ukraine's Chernobyl.
How about the traffic in California, the roadways crawl.
The amount of pollution caused by these cars is miniscule compared to those ongoing situations. The VW situation is a minor blip.
This is political and most likely driven by US car manufacturers.
17
Investing in research isn't really compensation as they would profit by the result and it is at best tenuous. We do not know for certain that a better car can be made.
They should have to build entirely at their own expense large carbon free power generation stations that can replace current carbon based generation in each and every state affected by these vehicles. That would at least make a start at lowering carbon output and compensate the planet for the damage done. Don't forget these vehicles will still be on the roads for decades and they cheated because the motor cannot be made better.
They should have to build entirely at their own expense large carbon free power generation stations that can replace current carbon based generation in each and every state affected by these vehicles. That would at least make a start at lowering carbon output and compensate the planet for the damage done. Don't forget these vehicles will still be on the roads for decades and they cheated because the motor cannot be made better.
VW employs nearly 600,000 people - including a lot in the U.S.
From what we know, only a small number in the engineering group and and even smaller number in upper management knew about the deception. There is no reason to think anyone in the U.S. knew about it.
Calls for blood and even the demise of VW are way out of line and make the many pay for the crimes of the few. Many smack more of an unrealistic anti-corporation fixation than any kind of rational assessment of what happened (honestly, the left can be as bad as the right at times). Others smack of wanting to see a litigation feeding frenzy.
As the editorial points out, the settlement appears to offer a fair (I would say generous) way forward.
As for actual health and environmental impact, of course the VW debacle didn't help. It would be interesting to see the true effect as part of the larger diesel and overall fossil fuel emissions picture. Relative emissions standards for the millions of trucks versus cars would also be of interest. The former does not appear to readily available and the latter isn't easily comparable. At any rate the damage is done and the settlement addresses it to the tune of billions.
A few managers is jail would be nice to see - but let's let the German legal system handle that - and based on our own record, we shouldn't get to self-righteous if nothing happens.
From what we know, only a small number in the engineering group and and even smaller number in upper management knew about the deception. There is no reason to think anyone in the U.S. knew about it.
Calls for blood and even the demise of VW are way out of line and make the many pay for the crimes of the few. Many smack more of an unrealistic anti-corporation fixation than any kind of rational assessment of what happened (honestly, the left can be as bad as the right at times). Others smack of wanting to see a litigation feeding frenzy.
As the editorial points out, the settlement appears to offer a fair (I would say generous) way forward.
As for actual health and environmental impact, of course the VW debacle didn't help. It would be interesting to see the true effect as part of the larger diesel and overall fossil fuel emissions picture. Relative emissions standards for the millions of trucks versus cars would also be of interest. The former does not appear to readily available and the latter isn't easily comparable. At any rate the damage is done and the settlement addresses it to the tune of billions.
A few managers is jail would be nice to see - but let's let the German legal system handle that - and based on our own record, we shouldn't get to self-righteous if nothing happens.
27
Manufacturers, who actually make and deliver a product, are found responsible through the legal process and made to pay for their wrongdoings — at least financially.
Banks and Wall Street financial institutions, don't make anything, but deliver a service or disservice, when things go bad get bailed out with public funds, which they use to pay themselves exorbitant bonuses in spite of their failures, go back to their scams and get off scot-free. Why is the legal process toothless in this case?
Complicity of elected and appointed government officials needs to be investigated and prosecuted. But is that going to happen when the democratic 'presumptive nominee' for president has been taking millions from Wall Street?
Banks and Wall Street financial institutions, don't make anything, but deliver a service or disservice, when things go bad get bailed out with public funds, which they use to pay themselves exorbitant bonuses in spite of their failures, go back to their scams and get off scot-free. Why is the legal process toothless in this case?
Complicity of elected and appointed government officials needs to be investigated and prosecuted. But is that going to happen when the democratic 'presumptive nominee' for president has been taking millions from Wall Street?
2
I'm sorry but once again this is demonstrative of our over-the-top view of everything.
To start, yes, VW broke the law and the corporation needs to be punished for that. But that punishment must be proportionate to the offense. To some, clearly, the thinking is "corporations are all bad, all the time and must be hit as hard as possible always". Emotion, not jurisprudence. At least it's the government, not greedy trial lawyers and a class action (yet).
Secondly, screaming headlines to the contrary, the buyers are not "victims", an over used term that puts everyone from the innocents in Istanbul yesterday to someone who's resale value went down a bit.
Forcing VW to buy back the cars at purchase price seems fair OR if the person wants to keep the car then they must be repaired at no cost to the owner - their choice. But adding more money on top of that is gratuitous and silly.
Also, can we please stop talking about "all the children" endangered by this like there's a madman with a gun running around. We are talking about emissions controls that existed but weren't good enough, and the "some studies predict"meme is not fact or actual evidence - it is speculation, an educated guesstimate based on certain assumptions; but in any event it isn't a pandemic threatening thousands or millions in the real world.
Frankly, the biggest hit VW can take is loss of market. Want to "get them"? Don't buy their product, new or used. That is what scares them most.
To start, yes, VW broke the law and the corporation needs to be punished for that. But that punishment must be proportionate to the offense. To some, clearly, the thinking is "corporations are all bad, all the time and must be hit as hard as possible always". Emotion, not jurisprudence. At least it's the government, not greedy trial lawyers and a class action (yet).
Secondly, screaming headlines to the contrary, the buyers are not "victims", an over used term that puts everyone from the innocents in Istanbul yesterday to someone who's resale value went down a bit.
Forcing VW to buy back the cars at purchase price seems fair OR if the person wants to keep the car then they must be repaired at no cost to the owner - their choice. But adding more money on top of that is gratuitous and silly.
Also, can we please stop talking about "all the children" endangered by this like there's a madman with a gun running around. We are talking about emissions controls that existed but weren't good enough, and the "some studies predict"meme is not fact or actual evidence - it is speculation, an educated guesstimate based on certain assumptions; but in any event it isn't a pandemic threatening thousands or millions in the real world.
Frankly, the biggest hit VW can take is loss of market. Want to "get them"? Don't buy their product, new or used. That is what scares them most.
19
If we're going to "get" the polluters, then by all means, let's go at it - why not start with all of the sanctimonious celebs and politicians who run around on private (or larger size) jets just to go off to a beach weekend, "date night", to snag an award and some swag, and so on. How many tons of needless pollutants are pumped into the atmosphere just to satisfy their egos while they lecture the peons on being green? Hypocrisy should bear a price, no?
14
Or who build eco-resorts for other celebs at $2000 a night that are accessible only by airplane or yacht?
5
Frankly the penalty is outrageous in relation to the damage. Compared to shrapnel spewing airbags, exploding gas tanks, and other highlights from the automotive past that elicited no or minimal penalty it is ridiculous. VW did something really dumb but the cars perform as expected for the customer and all would be perfectly happy with them if they had remained ignorant.
9
I bought mine for the lowish pollution and the high MPG, and I take dumping massive amounts of NOX into the air seriously, as damage.
Sorry.
Sorry.
3
Fair compensation?!? The tort law in most states says that fair compensation for a fraudulent sale is to get your money back. Not the 'pre-scandal NADA blue book value' but every last cent paid.
And there's a reason for that: it makes the penalty for fraud an effective deterrent.
And NYT, you might have missed the news, but a number of state AG's announced a settlement of their consumer protection (but not environmental) claims yesterday.
And there's a reason for that: it makes the penalty for fraud an effective deterrent.
And NYT, you might have missed the news, but a number of state AG's announced a settlement of their consumer protection (but not environmental) claims yesterday.
8
The the buyback is at trade-in value. That's much less than a fair price for a forced sale. In spring 2015 my dealer made an unsolicited offer for my Jetta tdi. It wasn't much less than the total compensation on offer. The 20% or $5,100 mostly goes to raise the trade-in value up to a fair price for a forced sale. There really is no compensation to owners for the fraud committed against them.
7
The buyback is at the price the car was worth the day before the news about the cheating came out.
There is a compensation of a min of $5000 on top of that.
There is a compensation of a min of $5000 on top of that.
1
What's really amazing here is that Volkswagen's motivation was primarily economic. It was unable to develop the technology in-house and didn't want to spend the money Mercedes wanted to license their Blue Tec system. A real money saver.
In many ways this is similar to the Flint water crisis. The pressure to rein in cost overrides or steamrollers moral and ethical decision making. The quandary of the "free market makes the best decisions".
In many ways this is similar to the Flint water crisis. The pressure to rein in cost overrides or steamrollers moral and ethical decision making. The quandary of the "free market makes the best decisions".
10
I think the blue tec system is also faulty.
1
The greatest victim of Volkswagen's fraud is to Germany and its Green leadership to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. A criticism of their plan to eliminate nuclear power while trying to reduce fossil fuel consumption is one where the numbers don't add up. Now Volkswagen shows fraud is part of the calculation and so as to make one wonder about the country's engineering prowess to solve anything given their denial of simple math.
1
You DO know that diesel is a fossil fuel, yes?
2
I know many in here want to jail VW execs and engineers but a lot seem to think it's as easy as just passing a law or two. I think it would actually be pretty hard in a lot of cases, especially with a large, multi-national firm.
How do you actually determine who is at fault, especially when you remember that pesky thing called the constitution and its demands for things like probable cause, due process, protection against self-incrimination, search and seizure, etc.. In our zeal to punish someone, anyone, it seems too many people are willing to make big exceptions.
Even if you find the one or two or ten top people who okayed something, can we actually prove that they made the decision knowingly or intentionally based on real data they were shown to the standard of the law, "beyond a reasonable doubt", not "just more likely" as in civil matters? Sometimes, especially in highly technical cases, that can be a high bar to reach. What if the actions were 100% in a foreign country, over which we have no jurisdiction?
Assuming convictions result, the law and custom still generally says the punishment must fit the crime. Some of the huge sentences proposed, seizure of personal assets, locked in maximum security, etc,. are emotional rather than legal or logical demands some are making.
There are no doubt ways we can strengthen some laws, but people need to take a deep breath and put things into a rational perspective, something our culture is increasingly bad at.
How do you actually determine who is at fault, especially when you remember that pesky thing called the constitution and its demands for things like probable cause, due process, protection against self-incrimination, search and seizure, etc.. In our zeal to punish someone, anyone, it seems too many people are willing to make big exceptions.
Even if you find the one or two or ten top people who okayed something, can we actually prove that they made the decision knowingly or intentionally based on real data they were shown to the standard of the law, "beyond a reasonable doubt", not "just more likely" as in civil matters? Sometimes, especially in highly technical cases, that can be a high bar to reach. What if the actions were 100% in a foreign country, over which we have no jurisdiction?
Assuming convictions result, the law and custom still generally says the punishment must fit the crime. Some of the huge sentences proposed, seizure of personal assets, locked in maximum security, etc,. are emotional rather than legal or logical demands some are making.
There are no doubt ways we can strengthen some laws, but people need to take a deep breath and put things into a rational perspective, something our culture is increasingly bad at.
10
Penalties meted out to GM and Takata have been sorry, to say the least. At least VW hasn't killed anyone. Send the big wigs to jail, and fine them personally.
5
Use the laws we have. Quite simply by the company's deliberate action they marketed vehicles which don't meet type approval. Where this has happened with other vehicles they answer was to put them through the crusher. Surely if we believe in the rule of law then that is the only legitimate solution. These vehicles will be running around for twenty years and the "dirty" ones will become sought after because they are more economical. Crush them and track down every one.
1
Why not just repair them? Why create more waste and use the energy for disposal when a recalibration might address the problem.
6
Yes, VW needs to pay. But, how about the bankers and the real estate fat cats who brought us subprime mortages and credit def. swaps. They ruined peoples lives far more than VW ever did. At least diesel reduces carbon/mi and helps save the planet.
3
The only compensation that would be effective would be to have VW buy back all the cars at their full purchase price, with perhaps a deduction for mileage at the rate that the IRS permits. Then VW should pay the full penalty for their lies.
If a salesperson tells a buyer that something is a diamond, knowing that it is not, and then it turns out to be glass, the buyer has to buy it back at the full purchase price. The contract of sale is rescinded because of the fraud; there never was a contract in the first place if the seller knowingly lied.
If VW does not face the full penalty for its perfidy, it will be an incentive not only to commit frauds but to maximize them. This is because lying sellers will conclude that increasing the numbers of individual sales will make it less likely they will have to face the full penalty. "Too big to fail" will become "Too many sales to penalize."
If a salesperson tells a buyer that something is a diamond, knowing that it is not, and then it turns out to be glass, the buyer has to buy it back at the full purchase price. The contract of sale is rescinded because of the fraud; there never was a contract in the first place if the seller knowingly lied.
If VW does not face the full penalty for its perfidy, it will be an incentive not only to commit frauds but to maximize them. This is because lying sellers will conclude that increasing the numbers of individual sales will make it less likely they will have to face the full penalty. "Too big to fail" will become "Too many sales to penalize."
7
This article is misleading on several points. As I drive my non-emissions-compliant VW diesel TDI Sportwagen one thing eludes me...
How is it when I stomp on the throttle there's no black soot in in the exhaust, and nearly every American diesel passenger truck is belching clouds of it? That's not even including semi-trailer tractors, which, as we know are huge sources of exhaust.
My car's wrong on Nitrous Oxide, I get it. But it's still cleaner than most diesels on our roads. There's a double standard here, and the USA is killing the diesel passenger car market here for a generation. That's overkill on so many levels.
How is it when I stomp on the throttle there's no black soot in in the exhaust, and nearly every American diesel passenger truck is belching clouds of it? That's not even including semi-trailer tractors, which, as we know are huge sources of exhaust.
My car's wrong on Nitrous Oxide, I get it. But it's still cleaner than most diesels on our roads. There's a double standard here, and the USA is killing the diesel passenger car market here for a generation. That's overkill on so many levels.
29
I am a Jetta TDI owner who has waded into this settlement with a calculator and a group of Jetta owners from around the country, and the biggest problem with this settlement is a mileage penalty. Do you realize that owners are only allowed 12,500 miles per year or their settlement is reduced, sometimes to nothing? A lot of us are "road dogs" who bought these cars because they get great mileage for a long commute. Ironically, those who drove the most polluted the most. And yet, owners are being treated like they are on a lease or that VW has concern for the residual resale of these cars. Most of us will need to purchase another vehicle, at no fault of our own, and yet this settlement hurts those who drive the most. Many owners will not be able to afford to turn their cars in and no approved modification exists! Commentor Mark Tomason is right when he asks you to do basic reporting and math before giving this settlement a front page blessing.
21
Happy with it? Just keep driving your car as it is. In all likelihood there will be no new emission test, grandfathered in etc...
8
No. I am not happy with the car. I paid a premium for the diesel. It has had constant "emissions" engine lights and costly repairs. As it sits in my driveway today, a "diesel emission filter" light is on. I have been unable to sell it for a year, under water and waiting for this settlement. And, wait is what I will continue to do, because I can't get a check or drop this car off until maybe, late fall. However, Volkswagen will be keeping track of my mileage at the turn in. How sweet.
1
Lying and cheating of Volkswagen has to be punished. But I write this again: What hypocrisy. If it were about the environment, all those big SUVs and pick-up-trucks would be banned. Everyday I'm a 'victim' of some of my neighbors, when they start their roaring and stinky Diesel pick-up trucks 5 minutes before they drive to their office jobs. I'm probably not smart enough to understand these double standards in regulations. Is it to protect the U.S. manufacturers?
21
Careful what you ban. Every day I'm a victim of my neighbors starting their cars to drive to their jobs while I take mass transit but I don't propose a ban on personal internal combustion engines. My son's new GM 2.8 turbodiesel gets 31 MPG highway and uses the Def fluid exhaust regen system that somehow VW's 'miracle diesels' avoided having to implement. So do cars produced by BMW, GM, and Mercedes.
Surely the true "victim" in all of this is the Environment, put the $$$ settlement toward cleaning up or developing technology to preserve the Environment.
4
More money for lawyers, yay!
5
This whole business resembles the Brexit vote. Nobody in management had any plan at all to deal with VW getting caught cheating this way.
1
When is someone going to jail????
When when when?
This will keep happening until we put some crooked executives in jail.
J-A-I-L jail.
When when when?
This will keep happening until we put some crooked executives in jail.
J-A-I-L jail.
7
This judgment is somewhat hypocritical. Even though Volkswagen cheated and their cars pollute "40 times" more than they should, they are still much cleaner than diesels sold in the 60's & 70's. I say hypocritical because most states only require brand new cars sold at dealers to have proper pollution controls. If your muffler or catalytic cover rusts open or falls off, there is no penalty to the owner except in a few states, including California. These cars pollute as much as 1,000 times as much soot and pollution than cars that are compliant. Until all cars are held to the same standard, we are hypocrites.
6
Here's a penalty: nobody buy and cars from these dishonest persons. I sure won't. VW is finished, and that is as it should be.
2
"VICTIMS?" Oh for God's sakes. Do people really believe ANY car advertising anymore, especially mileage? You make it sound like it caused them physical damage. Which begs the question, are you going to run an editorial on the IKEA "Victims" who have apparently never learned what overloading a chest of drawers then placing a TV on top does?
9
This just goes to show that even the corporation with great records aren't to be trusted. The maxim to "trust but verify" should be the government's responsibility, and not left to "self testing".
2
I do not understand how this could happen with emissions standards and tests and engineers testing these cars. If not meeting requirements the engineers and people responsible should be held accountable. Take the settlement money off of their salaries and you will see how fast this fraud straightens out.
1
"... regulators need to make sure this kind of thing does not happen again."
When a poor person robs a few dollars, our system puts them in prison for a long stretch "to make sure this kind of thing does not happen again." Why don't we apply this argument to corporate leaders who rob billions and damage the planet? Wanting to make sure this doesn't happen again is a pipe dream. But a thirty year sentence without parole in a maximum security prison for the CEOs who loot and pillage would provide a start.
Most of us might well loot and pillage if we knew that the only penalty would be for the owners of the stocks to pay a monetary penalty while we walk away. Keep this up and the people might start thinking about bringing back the tumbrils for the oligarchs.
When a poor person robs a few dollars, our system puts them in prison for a long stretch "to make sure this kind of thing does not happen again." Why don't we apply this argument to corporate leaders who rob billions and damage the planet? Wanting to make sure this doesn't happen again is a pipe dream. But a thirty year sentence without parole in a maximum security prison for the CEOs who loot and pillage would provide a start.
Most of us might well loot and pillage if we knew that the only penalty would be for the owners of the stocks to pay a monetary penalty while we walk away. Keep this up and the people might start thinking about bringing back the tumbrils for the oligarchs.
2
To Parisian Passer-By: It is not only VW owners who suffered. It is all of us who live on this planet. There were regulatory requirements that VW deliberately went around. It is not just "deceptive marketing." It is violating regulations their diesel cars were legally required to meet. They created a mechanism for violating them. That mechanism spewed pollution into our planet's air (the "our" I think is important!) at dozens of times the legally set limits. Easily, VW could have been asked to pay a lot more. Talk about soiling the "German brand" of quality. It is disgraceful any company would do so (and one hopes the executives and managers involved at VW go to jail for their deception).
GM has done plenty of awful things in its history. As have many other companies. Let us hope, at least for the future, that deliberate corporate deception that harms people and our planet, is penalized at levels comparable to or exceeding that of VW. It is time to stop just putting poor people in jail. Let us see if any VW executives end up there. I doubt if many are holding their breath on that one.
GM has done plenty of awful things in its history. As have many other companies. Let us hope, at least for the future, that deliberate corporate deception that harms people and our planet, is penalized at levels comparable to or exceeding that of VW. It is time to stop just putting poor people in jail. Let us see if any VW executives end up there. I doubt if many are holding their breath on that one.
2
I will be turning in my TDI, but hate having to give up my 'Fahrvrümlegln' bumper sticker.
1
Boycott Volkswagen and arrest the corporate executives responsible for this crime. They lied to us, polluted our air and broke the law. I will never ever buy a car from this criminal enterprise. A curse upon all who profited from this illegal scheme.
From speeding to polluting, it's 'legal' until you're caught, tried, and convicted. Lawyers and lobbyists exist to keep it 'legal'. Volkswagen isn't the first company to play this game.
Up until now, however, there was a professionalism among Engineers which discouraged things like writing computer code to hide law-breaking. One can't check everything an Engineer, or engineering firm, does. At some point, the Engineer must be trusted.
With globalization and the race to the global bottom, has Engineering lost its ethical standards? Are Engineers no longer trustworthy? Can the ethical standards be restored and enforced?
Up until now, however, there was a professionalism among Engineers which discouraged things like writing computer code to hide law-breaking. One can't check everything an Engineer, or engineering firm, does. At some point, the Engineer must be trusted.
With globalization and the race to the global bottom, has Engineering lost its ethical standards? Are Engineers no longer trustworthy? Can the ethical standards be restored and enforced?
4
Feel I need to defend the engineers of the world, including German ones. As an engineer myself, I can assure you that no engineer I have ever worked with has intended to design a defective product.
As design "compromise," even a horrible one such as VW's software, can only exist in a world where harsh external forces impinge upon it.
They may try to blame a "rogue engineer," but at the end of the day someone from marketing or finance put intense pressure on this engineer to tweak the software. These kind of things don't happen to a design in a vacuum.
As design "compromise," even a horrible one such as VW's software, can only exist in a world where harsh external forces impinge upon it.
They may try to blame a "rogue engineer," but at the end of the day someone from marketing or finance put intense pressure on this engineer to tweak the software. These kind of things don't happen to a design in a vacuum.
9
What a ridiculously large settlement on something that is not commensurate with it. But like all the "settlements" that politicians make, it's about shakedown money from the business, headlines, shaming and media time for the politicians (and prosecutors and lawyers involved).
That the owners will receive between $5,100 and $10,000 per car is beyond belief. The owners were not harmed to that extent. Nor was the air. This is much about very little. But politicians have to "earn" their keep.
That the owners will receive between $5,100 and $10,000 per car is beyond belief. The owners were not harmed to that extent. Nor was the air. This is much about very little. But politicians have to "earn" their keep.
10
Well, there is the whole "intentional fraud" thing, this wasn't an honest mistake.
1
Are you serious? Every time I have used my Jetta since 2011 I've been breathing clouds of nitrogen oxide. And how is it you know this won't make me sick?
No comment on VW's rigging their systems.
But the damage to the environment and health done by us drivers of those diesels..... it is a relative thing, and not what the press makes it out to be. The most egregious example, the comment in this editorial stating flatly that the diesels emit 40 times the allowable limit. Not "up to", or "sometimes". Just "40 times" the limit.
What is never reported is just how much additional NOx is produced by these 450,000 diesels. The original test report by West Virginia U was for two vehicles, representing two of the emissions equipment configurations offered by VW during the years in question. The older one was always emitting in excess, but the newer unit was in compliance during a significant part of the driving cycle. A recent Fortune magazine article say other tests show average NOx emissions of between 6 and 8 times the legal limit.
With that knowledge, some of us owners take comfort. Since we do have the ability to go to our local GM, Ford or Dodge store and buy a brand new 2016 diesel pickup that is legally allowed to emit 7 times as much NOx as the VWs, our choice to drive the VW means we don't emit more NOx, and we do emit about 1/3 of the CO2 that those pickups do.
With that knowledge, I will keep driving the sportwagon. There is no substitute vehicle that offers the utility, fuel economy and quality driving experience for the money.
But the damage to the environment and health done by us drivers of those diesels..... it is a relative thing, and not what the press makes it out to be. The most egregious example, the comment in this editorial stating flatly that the diesels emit 40 times the allowable limit. Not "up to", or "sometimes". Just "40 times" the limit.
What is never reported is just how much additional NOx is produced by these 450,000 diesels. The original test report by West Virginia U was for two vehicles, representing two of the emissions equipment configurations offered by VW during the years in question. The older one was always emitting in excess, but the newer unit was in compliance during a significant part of the driving cycle. A recent Fortune magazine article say other tests show average NOx emissions of between 6 and 8 times the legal limit.
With that knowledge, some of us owners take comfort. Since we do have the ability to go to our local GM, Ford or Dodge store and buy a brand new 2016 diesel pickup that is legally allowed to emit 7 times as much NOx as the VWs, our choice to drive the VW means we don't emit more NOx, and we do emit about 1/3 of the CO2 that those pickups do.
With that knowledge, I will keep driving the sportwagon. There is no substitute vehicle that offers the utility, fuel economy and quality driving experience for the money.
31
Am I the only one who sees a missed opportunity here? VW owners were not damaged economically, and will not be unless they opt to "repair" their vehicles so that emissions are as low as promised--and thereby compromise milage. Who was damaged? The environment, of course. How much better it would have been to apply settlement funds to clean, renewable energy development.
13
What VW did was criminal and should be treated as such.
But I own one of these cars, and I don't think the terms of the settlement make sense environmentally.
They are proposing to lower NOx emissions *at the expense of increased CO2 emissions*. Which gas is the greater threat to humanity? The answer is obvious.
And why do I say this? They simply cannot fix the older cars without reducing their fuel efficiency. CO2 emissions are inversely proportional to fuel efficiency. So the fix will increase CO2 emissions.
As for the cars bought back, they will either be destroyed (energy and environmental cost) or shipped somewhere else (energy and environmental cost) and replaced by their owners. With what? With gasoline in this country at ridiculously low prices (thanks to fracking and a gasoline tax that hasn't been touched in 25 years), this genius country is rushing to buy big SUVs again. These VWs, which get about 43 mpg overall and 50 mpg on the highway, will be largely (!) replaced by gas hogs.
The VW diesels with the "cheat" in the software are about .2% of the total cars driven in the US, a tiny part of the NOx problem. Also consider trucks, buses, diesel locomotives and jet airplanes.
The environmental aspect of this is a tempest in a teapot. The owners, who did not cause this problem, should have the option of continuing to drive them as they are, with compensation for the loss in resale value, rather than only the choice of having them neutered or bought back.
But I own one of these cars, and I don't think the terms of the settlement make sense environmentally.
They are proposing to lower NOx emissions *at the expense of increased CO2 emissions*. Which gas is the greater threat to humanity? The answer is obvious.
And why do I say this? They simply cannot fix the older cars without reducing their fuel efficiency. CO2 emissions are inversely proportional to fuel efficiency. So the fix will increase CO2 emissions.
As for the cars bought back, they will either be destroyed (energy and environmental cost) or shipped somewhere else (energy and environmental cost) and replaced by their owners. With what? With gasoline in this country at ridiculously low prices (thanks to fracking and a gasoline tax that hasn't been touched in 25 years), this genius country is rushing to buy big SUVs again. These VWs, which get about 43 mpg overall and 50 mpg on the highway, will be largely (!) replaced by gas hogs.
The VW diesels with the "cheat" in the software are about .2% of the total cars driven in the US, a tiny part of the NOx problem. Also consider trucks, buses, diesel locomotives and jet airplanes.
The environmental aspect of this is a tempest in a teapot. The owners, who did not cause this problem, should have the option of continuing to drive them as they are, with compensation for the loss in resale value, rather than only the choice of having them neutered or bought back.
23
As I understand it, owners do have the option of continuing to keep their cars and drive them as they are, and can still obtain the cash. You can also wait to see what the proposed repair is, and if you don't like it, you can elect one of the other options or opt out of the settlement altogether.
One is not obliged to join the class action. One may also hire a lawyer and pursue whatever remedies are available, which may exceed those negotiated in the settlement, especially if put in front of a sympathetic jury.
One is not obliged to join the class action. One may also hire a lawyer and pursue whatever remedies are available, which may exceed those negotiated in the settlement, especially if put in front of a sympathetic jury.
You are wrong. Once the deadline is reached, you either sell the car back to VW or let them "fix" it, which will certainly reduce its fuel efficiency and/or performance. But if you want to continue driving the car unmodified, you can opt out of the class action, as you say, but you get NO compensation for the reduction in resale value brought about by VW's criminality. You also have no guarantee that you will be able to continue to register an un-fixed car.
VW I remember when in 1965 a VW was about $700. Just the stripped down beetle. Fast forward 51 years. VW had a reputation for engineering excellence. And for integrity. What were they thinking by rigging the software that controlled the emissions test scores? Yes, VW owners deserve restitution. But when a company knowingly violates environmental laws, they need to pay penalties and restitution. We can remove VW pollution from the air. But it's very expensive. The burden must be born by VW for dirtying the US air and water. Germany now generates about 80% of its electricity from sustainable resources. So the country is committed to protecting the environment. In that context, VW is a rogue corporation, going against Germany's successful policy of sustainable living. Those who think the price is too high should be given the option of staying in a chamber full of diesel contaminants, risking their health. For the rest of us who want a clean, sustainable country, VW owes us a clean environment. US taxpayers deserve relief from bearing the cost of removing the contaminants from the environment for VW's adjudicated wrongdoing.
Remember the old days when all diesels belched out black smoke, and following a NYC school bus was enough to make your lungs feel like they were turning black and shriveling up? I sure do! My VW diesel may put out 40 times as much pollution as it should, but it still puts out far less than older cars used to.
VW doesn't deserve to be be bankrupted for this and people thrown out of their jobs. It does deserve a stiff punishment and public shaming, which is exactly what the USA is delivering. Now how about the same for the companies who make cars with faulty ignitions and danger shifters?
VW doesn't deserve to be be bankrupted for this and people thrown out of their jobs. It does deserve a stiff punishment and public shaming, which is exactly what the USA is delivering. Now how about the same for the companies who make cars with faulty ignitions and danger shifters?
3
The real victims are those urban poor who's lives will be shorter on account of this pollution, but they won't see a dime. This settlement disgusts me.
2
I don't think there are many VW diesels roaming the urban ghetto. Get real, VW diesels are pretty much exclusively driven by middle/upper middle class educated professionals. Kind of like the NY Times demographic. Maybe that is why there is so much overwrought animosity here.
2
I would posit two factual thoughts about this settlement that may shed further light on the current state of the world:
1 - $15 billion, the supposed entire cost of a globe-spanning settlement, is just one-tenth - you read that right 1/10th - of the combined wealth of the six heirs to the Walmart fortune.
2 - If one is caught dumping millions of barrels of toxic chemicals into a waterway it is a serious criminal matter involving jail time for those involved. But somehow, in this cases, dumping millions and millions of cars' worth of pollution into our atmosphere over many years seems to yield no jail time for anyone. And those who never bought a Volkswagen but whose atmosphere was fouled seem to merit no compensation whatsoever.
It seems a few things need fixing here, not just the individual compensation aspect.
1 - $15 billion, the supposed entire cost of a globe-spanning settlement, is just one-tenth - you read that right 1/10th - of the combined wealth of the six heirs to the Walmart fortune.
2 - If one is caught dumping millions of barrels of toxic chemicals into a waterway it is a serious criminal matter involving jail time for those involved. But somehow, in this cases, dumping millions and millions of cars' worth of pollution into our atmosphere over many years seems to yield no jail time for anyone. And those who never bought a Volkswagen but whose atmosphere was fouled seem to merit no compensation whatsoever.
It seems a few things need fixing here, not just the individual compensation aspect.
4
It is not the entire cost of a globe spanning settlement. There were 11 million affected cars world wide, and this settlement covers less than 500,000. Plus, there are other claims even in the US against VW relating to these 500k cars (plus something like 50k 3.0 litre diesels in the US) that are not covered by the settlement. VW has much more to pay. I do not understand how VLKAY continues to trade at $25 a share, with the costs that lie ahead for them.
The harmful pollution caused by these cars didn't harm only the owners of the cars but everyone who was forced to breathe the exhaust that they emitted. This settlement seems to provide only a token amount of restitution to society broadly, yet air pollution kills 5.5 million people annually around the world. How do you put a price on a human life? While the rigged Volkswagons are not solely responsible for this colossal loss of life, there can be no doubt that they played a role and will continue to do so. One study estimated that 59 premature deaths will result from Volkswagon's deception. Volkswagon's intentional polluting of the air should therefore not be treated as mere fraud - an economic crime or a white-collar crime - but as an assault, and the people responsible should be criminally prosecuted accordingly. And Volkswagon should be forced to pay cash restitution to every citizen who was forced to breathe the air that its cars polluted, and not only to those who purchased those cars. If a settlement on this scale ends up putting Volkswagon out of business, I say that's a good thing. Real crimes deserve real consequences and not mere monetary fines which Volkswagon will likely write off as a tax deduction or pass along to consumers. Holding the perpetrators and upper management criminally liable and forcing the company to liquidate and go out of business might actually serve as an effective deterrent to the next corporate polluter.
3
Any and all fines issued to VW will be paid by future customers.
How is that fair?
How is that fair?
3
Payment from profits from future customers is just part of the deal when dealing with a corporation. That, and the fact that a corporation can't be incarcerated when it commits a crime, is all just a part of the reality that corporations are not people, no matter what the Supreme Court seems to think.
Seems to me having no rights to political contribution, to free speech or to religion would be a fitting trade.
Seems to me having no rights to political contribution, to free speech or to religion would be a fitting trade.
1
When I was a young executive at a GE subsidiary in the 1980s, once a year we had to read and sign a document on corporate ethics. GE wanted to make sure that we didn't repeat the behaviors that sent a number of their executives to prison. Those prison sentences were a consiousness (and conscience) raising experience at GE. The actions of many senior managers, at Volkswagen, to circumvent legally mandated emissions tests would seem to warrant criminal prosecution. At its root, environmental protection is a life or death matter. Why should Volkswagen's shareholders be the only ones punished for the corporation's illegal behavior. Ultimately, individuals consciously perpetrated the illegal acts? Individuals should pay the criminal penalties. As long as money shields executives, executives will rationalize illegal behavior.
5
This article misses the forest for the trees.
If we want to have a meaningful impact on emissions, we need to give people a decent alternative to the automobile. So the Federal government spends billions on roads and airports every year while rail transit, even in the most populated areas of the country, is falling apart.
Finger wagging at Volkwagen is not going to change the fundamentals.
If we want to have a meaningful impact on emissions, we need to give people a decent alternative to the automobile. So the Federal government spends billions on roads and airports every year while rail transit, even in the most populated areas of the country, is falling apart.
Finger wagging at Volkwagen is not going to change the fundamentals.
15
No, you are right, it won't. Too bad the agreement didn't take a larger portion of the settlement and put it towards mass transit.
Volkswagen meet Enron. Your going to be joining them as poster children as to how not to do it for many decades to come.
Just goes to show ya that corporations and business in general need supervision on a on going basis. Free Marketers/ Get the Government of our Backs types are only trying to convince us to turn our backs while they continue to use the Lie, Cheat, and Steal business model to shake every last farthing out of our pockets.
Now the the Government has come down hard on the Civil side it's way past time to extradite Volkswagen Sr. Executives to stand trial for fraud. We Americans would be happy to give them a all expenses paid vacation for a decade or so at one of our splendid prison get aways.
Just goes to show ya that corporations and business in general need supervision on a on going basis. Free Marketers/ Get the Government of our Backs types are only trying to convince us to turn our backs while they continue to use the Lie, Cheat, and Steal business model to shake every last farthing out of our pockets.
Now the the Government has come down hard on the Civil side it's way past time to extradite Volkswagen Sr. Executives to stand trial for fraud. We Americans would be happy to give them a all expenses paid vacation for a decade or so at one of our splendid prison get aways.
3
The whole thing is a poster child case against light touch regulation by government. A good skeptical government inspector instead of what passes for oversight would have caught this before these cars ever hit the road.
A great deal of the "government" inspection these days is done by third parties or employees of the companies being inspected thanks to regulatory roll backs and the assent of Third Way Types who peddle Republican Lite as Democratic values. You cannot let Colonel Sanders babysit your chickens.
A great deal of the "government" inspection these days is done by third parties or employees of the companies being inspected thanks to regulatory roll backs and the assent of Third Way Types who peddle Republican Lite as Democratic values. You cannot let Colonel Sanders babysit your chickens.
8
Rather than lecture us about clean air and how stupid regulators can be, I'd rather see NYT compare the settlement with VW to the settlement with GM over ignition switches, and how much help GM got from the US government along the way.
Fact is that VW makes better cars than any US automaker, and there's something in all this that's a joke that VW could fool the American regulators in the first place. The fine is more revenge than compensation.
Fact is that VW makes better cars than any US automaker, and there's something in all this that's a joke that VW could fool the American regulators in the first place. The fine is more revenge than compensation.
6
This editorial wrongly treats the VW case as evidence of widespread industry fraud. The VW case is unique. VW was the only carmaker pushing small diesels in the US. Diesels in the US are for big trucks, unlike in Europe where diesel cars are common. US diesel standards are twice as strict as in the EU because heavy trucks, across a fleet, can meet them. Small cars cannot. The technology does not exist to meet the emissions limits and still deliver high performance. VW had to meet a high standard designed for heavy trucks with only a small and medium car vehicle fleet. So they cheated.
Diesels account for less than 3% of the US car market. There was no reason to spend taxpayer dollars on expensive compliance testing for a tiny sliver of the market when eyes were needed on the major segments. An EU project run by the ICCT inadvertently found the anomaly when testing US VW's and signaled US regulators. This was a fluke rather than a template and VW is paying a heavy price.
Software is a big issue. Cars contain 50 times more software code than fighter aircraft. Automated vehicles will increase this exponentially. But unlike other nations, US safety and environmental regulations do not certify technology. They only set standards for vehicle performance. Congress needs to revisit our system, designed in the 1960's, for today's world. And that means testing what goes into cars to make sure technologies are safe and run properly throughout the life of the vehicle.
Diesels account for less than 3% of the US car market. There was no reason to spend taxpayer dollars on expensive compliance testing for a tiny sliver of the market when eyes were needed on the major segments. An EU project run by the ICCT inadvertently found the anomaly when testing US VW's and signaled US regulators. This was a fluke rather than a template and VW is paying a heavy price.
Software is a big issue. Cars contain 50 times more software code than fighter aircraft. Automated vehicles will increase this exponentially. But unlike other nations, US safety and environmental regulations do not certify technology. They only set standards for vehicle performance. Congress needs to revisit our system, designed in the 1960's, for today's world. And that means testing what goes into cars to make sure technologies are safe and run properly throughout the life of the vehicle.
1
Volkswagen was a war criminal in 1945, having built the jet engines for the Messerschmidt fighter planes during the unholy war the Nazis started, and in a factory whose construction may be attributed to that leader of evil memory...why Jewish people continue to buy VWs or even more astonishingly, BMWs, Porsches and Daimler Benz products remains a constant source of wonder to me, knowing that the Nazis used death camp slave labor to manufacture all these brands. And remember, they only stopped because we made them. The same families, now into the 3rd and 4th generations past the war, continue to rule Germany and own the means of production and most of the money. Is anyone surprised that they would engage in cynical cheating against people like Americans who are still hated and resented for stopping their march to world domination by 1945?
2
Time to get real. The German employees who make German automobiles today were not even born yet when the Nazi's were in power. All of my German friends and colleagues, like most Germans today, are remarkably open and well informed about the Holocaust and what the Nazis were about. How long are you going to blame modern Germany for the sins of the past? Sure, they have their right wing neo-Nazi nuts just like we do, but I was astounded to walk into the Reichstag building in Berlin on my first visit over a decade ago and find a very dramatic, explicit and stark display of Nazi war crimes and the Holocaust prominently set right in the cupola of the building. Also, there is a great Jewish museum in Berlin with more to see and that gets lots of visitors. I don't think you will find such openness about the atrocities of WWII in Japan.
I drive an Audi. So does my wife. They are outstanding cars -- best I have ever owned. They were not built by Nazis. They were built by 21st century Germans.
I drive an Audi. So does my wife. They are outstanding cars -- best I have ever owned. They were not built by Nazis. They were built by 21st century Germans.
4
The leopard never changes its spots. German business methods may have changed but many people in Germany still rely on money looted from Nazi victims to pay for their rides, blings, trips to the casino and vacations. My wife and I have visited the museum you mention in Berlin and I have spent years living and working in Germany for several corporations, all of whom were indicted at Nuremberg...my relatives from Europe would have been alive during my own lifetime but for the policies of Germany that were also legal during the 3rd Reich.
2
That is 28,000 per car. Very likely more than they were sold for.
The safety risks with the water in Flint are much bigger. Yet those are allowed to go on endlessly.
To quote Harry Potter: ridiculoso!
The safety risks with the water in Flint are much bigger. Yet those are allowed to go on endlessly.
To quote Harry Potter: ridiculoso!
14
$14.7 billion for 500,000 cars comes to $29,400 per car. That is about the whole price of all of those cars.
I don't believe this report. They are not paying that much. They've fudged the numbers, and the NYT has been misled and passed it on to us.
This is reporting the price if they bought back all of the cars, then fails to account for them getting all of the cars back to re-sell. Anyway, they are not going to buy back all of the cars. Most will likely be fixed.
The real settlement is the cost of the repairs, plus compensation to owners, and fines. It will be a lot, but it will not be $14.7 billion.
From the numbers here and the cost of repairs reported elsewhere, the real cost to VW of this settlement is less than a third of this report, if they average say $7,500 compensation per owner and $1,000 per car for repairs. That is probably high on both numbers.
The future investment is future money, ten years out. That discounts a lot.
Considering everything, if VW actually pays it all to everyone (some always fall through the cracks) it will be less than half this report. Reporting done better than back-of-the-envelop figures would almost certainly uncover more they've hidden away. For example, likely they'll get back a lot of this on reduced taxes for the loss.
I know everyone is carrying this report just as is, but somebody at the Times ought to have used a calculator for a few seconds to see that this just can't be true. Smell test. That is an editor's job.
I don't believe this report. They are not paying that much. They've fudged the numbers, and the NYT has been misled and passed it on to us.
This is reporting the price if they bought back all of the cars, then fails to account for them getting all of the cars back to re-sell. Anyway, they are not going to buy back all of the cars. Most will likely be fixed.
The real settlement is the cost of the repairs, plus compensation to owners, and fines. It will be a lot, but it will not be $14.7 billion.
From the numbers here and the cost of repairs reported elsewhere, the real cost to VW of this settlement is less than a third of this report, if they average say $7,500 compensation per owner and $1,000 per car for repairs. That is probably high on both numbers.
The future investment is future money, ten years out. That discounts a lot.
Considering everything, if VW actually pays it all to everyone (some always fall through the cracks) it will be less than half this report. Reporting done better than back-of-the-envelop figures would almost certainly uncover more they've hidden away. For example, likely they'll get back a lot of this on reduced taxes for the loss.
I know everyone is carrying this report just as is, but somebody at the Times ought to have used a calculator for a few seconds to see that this just can't be true. Smell test. That is an editor's job.
49
Please reads article before commenting. $4.7 billion of the $14.7 goes to non-buyer issues. that get's the average down to about $20,000/per vehicle. My 2010 TDI, second oldest model, had a Kelly blue book of $17,500 when this blew-up. The 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 models all had higher values and higher percentages of the cars, sales of TDIs went up each year and fewer had been taken out of service. Perhaps the moderators should apply the smell test to comments.
Isn't the point that the amount could total 14.7 billion, not that it will reach necessarily be that much? Your figure is only including compensation, repairs, and the fines (which would in fact drop the per car average to 21,000), but it's not including everything else that's part of the deal (the buybacks, loan forgiveness, etc.). And with respect to your claim that VW "is not going to buy back all of the cars. Most will likely be fixed," doesn't it matter that this isn't an option in the settlement? That is, no fix currently exists, and VW is required to offer the buyback regardless of whether the fix exists.
You should practice some of your preaching... Your entire argument is derived from a gut feeling with no data or factual support.
Some perspective. VW's cars were illegal in only CA and maybe the DC area. The cars obtained at least 50 mpg in the hands of the owners, but produced too much irritant gases that contribute to smog and asthma. Nobody has said the incidence of lung issues increased in CA. Nobody died, unlike unlike with GM's ignition switches, and Toyota's floor mats. If you drive any interstates, you see many diesel trucks dumping black dust and more. So the VW pollution problems were minor..... But they were wrong. VW cheated to pass emission tests, and have to pay fines. But really, what I hear is over board, America wants to sue, get as much as you can while you can.
Eventually, VW will be a leader in electric cars as well, and the sad thing technically is that American experience discourages VW engineers to achieve what they failed to do, and some people covered up and went ahead.
Eventually, VW will be a leader in electric cars as well, and the sad thing technically is that American experience discourages VW engineers to achieve what they failed to do, and some people covered up and went ahead.
3
Volkswagen's victims? Most VW owners, of which I am one, love our cars. OK we didn't get quite the clean burning diesel we thought. So What? We have a great, well made car, great gas mileage, reliable. If this scandal hadn't emerged, we would have gone on for years loving our cars. We aren't "victims". This is a fabricated problem---fabricated by out of control government and the EPA.
13
If your car gets totaled in an accident, you will be offered about 35% less than you thought it was worth. Are you still not a victim at that point?
3
So how am I reimbursed for breathing the dirty air your lies caused. I still think a one year ban on doing business in the US would have been fairer.
2
I suggest that any enterprising drug dealing gang incorporate their organization.
This way when any gang members, I mean employees of the organization are caught committing crime they are magically immune from prosecution by reason of their corporate affiliation. Any fines can be paid out of profits and each individual is above criminal scrutiny.
Or put another way. How are the employees of banks and other large corporations such as auto manufacturers and insurance companies always immune from criminal charges?
Does the organized part of the term "organized crime" not mean anything other than zero personal culpability?
Or do we have a different set of laws for those of a particular class or color?
This way when any gang members, I mean employees of the organization are caught committing crime they are magically immune from prosecution by reason of their corporate affiliation. Any fines can be paid out of profits and each individual is above criminal scrutiny.
Or put another way. How are the employees of banks and other large corporations such as auto manufacturers and insurance companies always immune from criminal charges?
Does the organized part of the term "organized crime" not mean anything other than zero personal culpability?
Or do we have a different set of laws for those of a particular class or color?
38
When large corporations commit major crimes (typically frauds, thefts, etc), the officers never go to jail. Instead there are these corporate fines and payouts, which seem impressive, but which become just the cost of doing business. Especially if the companies involved can get tax savings from the cost of the fines -- have not seen that addressed yet with Volkswagen.
19
This is just the beginning. The settlement covers 435,000 vehicles. But the actual count is some 25 times greater. On 22 September 2015, VW AG admitted that 11 million cars worldwide had been fitted with software intended to deceive emissions testing.
If other countries follow suit, this becomes much more than a dent in their profits. It could bankrupt the company, the second largest automaker in the world, ahead of GM.
That will take down more than the VW line. They also own Porsche and Bugatti, among others.
If other countries follow suit, this becomes much more than a dent in their profits. It could bankrupt the company, the second largest automaker in the world, ahead of GM.
That will take down more than the VW line. They also own Porsche and Bugatti, among others.
3
this is a very harsh penalty against a company that while going somewhat array of the laws, has produced quality cars that get great gas mileage. It seems to me that the remedy is worse than the ailment or alleged ailment. At best, the compensation should not exceed $250.00 per car, the difference between the actual amount of fuel used and what the customer would have used over the period of time they owned the car.
2
It's not about the mileage, it's about the pollution. I don't want to be driving a car that is fouling the air. That's the deception. If they could fix that without diminishing the car's performance. I'd be happy to keep it. It's a great little car otherwise, except that it's now associated with lying, fraud and breech of faith.
I want a divorce from VW with a hefty divorce settlement.
I want a divorce from VW with a hefty divorce settlement.
2
A car is an asset, and that asset is now worth 35% less. The damages are very real.
4
If you don't want to be driving a car that is fouling the air, then you should not drive a car.
3
This is partly because the emissions test is designed by idiots. They plug into a computer port to read emissions. Duh. That's an easy cheat. If they plugged into the exhaust they would get an actual reading.
And yes, there are ways to cheat even that but they're not simple and I'd argue the cost would outweigh the benefit (and these alterations could be inspected).
And yes, there are ways to cheat even that but they're not simple and I'd argue the cost would outweigh the benefit (and these alterations could be inspected).
4
I looked up what VW will pay me under the current agreement. It looks like I will get about $18,500 for my 2010 TDI sports wagon. All said and done, I got 6 good years of use at a cost of $1000 per year. The car drove well. Will I buy another? Well the diesels where really reliable, but I haven't heard good things about the gas ones. Sorry VW, but I guess I'm sticking with my Subaru. Which after this settlement will cost me $8k. Sweet.
3
I test-drove a TDI a couple years ago. The performance was outstanding; off the charts. Should have bought it; would have been a good investment.
2
"Investigations are underway in other countries, which almost certainly will press Volkswagen to offer their consumers terms at least as good as the ones negotiated by the American government"
This shows either the ignorance (or complicity) of NYT of the ways 0f the Europeans, which support their companies like VW (and AIRBUS) with not only direct, but also indirect subsidies. Fact is that if Europeans countries impose compensations of the same order as the US, VW is BANKRUPT and should be taken over by the Government, similar to what was done with GM and Chrysler in the US!! And the outrageously lying management spent many years in jail.
""Other governments, including the European Union, have been far more lax. nvestigations are underway in other countries, which almost certainly will press Volkswagen to offer their consumers terms at least as good as the ones negotiated by the Americans The E.U. concedes that diesel cars sold there have exceeded allowable emissions levels but has given automakers several years to bring their products into compliance. This can only harm public health. Air pollution is responsible for an estimated 430,000 premature deaths a year in the E.U. and cars and trucks are a big source of those.""
Of course, the responsible in these government should accompany the VW executives in Jail
This shows either the ignorance (or complicity) of NYT of the ways 0f the Europeans, which support their companies like VW (and AIRBUS) with not only direct, but also indirect subsidies. Fact is that if Europeans countries impose compensations of the same order as the US, VW is BANKRUPT and should be taken over by the Government, similar to what was done with GM and Chrysler in the US!! And the outrageously lying management spent many years in jail.
""Other governments, including the European Union, have been far more lax. nvestigations are underway in other countries, which almost certainly will press Volkswagen to offer their consumers terms at least as good as the ones negotiated by the Americans The E.U. concedes that diesel cars sold there have exceeded allowable emissions levels but has given automakers several years to bring their products into compliance. This can only harm public health. Air pollution is responsible for an estimated 430,000 premature deaths a year in the E.U. and cars and trucks are a big source of those.""
Of course, the responsible in these government should accompany the VW executives in Jail
2
The owners and drivers of these cars are not the only victims in need of compensation. Private automobiles impose costs not only on their owners, but on the environment and thus on other people as well. Cash compensation for the owners makes sense, given that they were led to believe that the cars they bought were cleaner and more efficient than they are; but compensation for the damage done to the environment and punitive damages to deter this kind of behavior are necessary as well.
16
Who exactly is the victim of Volkswagen? Consumers got a high performance car that used more fuel than advertised- a modest cost over the years. The environment and air quality suffered more than it should have: the 500,000 VW Diesel engines make up a small minority of the 255 million vehicles on US roads. Sadly, there are bigger problems than VW Diesels.
15
They use less fuel than advertized. Mine often gets 45 mpg cruising over 70 mph.
VW must have believed that so much CO2 reduction would compensate for too much NOX.
VW must have believed that so much CO2 reduction would compensate for too much NOX.
1
I consider myself a victim of VW because I purchased the car in the hope of reducing my carbon footprint.
Me too Joanna. That is why I bought mine in May of 2015. And I was not taken in by VW marketing-- I trusted consumer Reports, Motor Trend and Car and Driver. BTW-- I like this car more than any I have ever driven. Very disappointing all the way around.
This is completely ridiculous. The US would never, ever inflict that kind of damage to GM. What harm did VW buyers actually suffer?? Being lied to, on an issue that does not impact the safety, driving comfort, efficiency of the car? Everyone knows that any car advertisement focusing on "clean" is a lie. Cars are not clean, period. It's a feel good marketing ploy, so that people who actually want fast, comfortable, safe, good-looking cars, can pretend that they are "good" people as well.
I am really, really looking forward for the US to prosecute every single company whose advertisement "misleads" the buyers. Starting with cars, of course, whose actual fuel consumption is never, ever, in real life, the one advertised by the sellers. Then they could move against any company that uses "natural" or "healthy" in its advertising (same empty, feel-good double-talk). They should, of course, require at least as much damages from any pharmaceutical company that actually kills people. Same with coal and oil companies.
I am really, really looking forward for the US to prosecute every single company whose advertisement "misleads" the buyers. Starting with cars, of course, whose actual fuel consumption is never, ever, in real life, the one advertised by the sellers. Then they could move against any company that uses "natural" or "healthy" in its advertising (same empty, feel-good double-talk). They should, of course, require at least as much damages from any pharmaceutical company that actually kills people. Same with coal and oil companies.
49
These deisels surprised owners with better than rated fuel economy.
3
Hello 'passer-by'. Did you not note the problem with these cars? They are MUCH worse than other cars on the road. Quoting from the op-ed piece: In actual driving, however, the vehicles belched nitrogen oxides at 40 times the levels allowed under the Clean Air Act.
Compensatory damages mean little to mega corporations like Volkswagen. If we really want to send a message to deceptive businesses, punitive damages, such as forcing Volkswagen to suspend its operations for a year, would be a far more effective deterrent to fraudulent practices. And if such a punishment causes a corporation to go under, so be it.
7
The rush to placate harms us all and, in the end, the money Volkswagen will end up having paid will be nothing in comparison to the harm done in terms of health to a far larger population than VW customers. Yes, 15 billion is more than any company has ever paid out in damages, but the truth is that we don't know the real extent of the damage done or how many will have suffered as a result of it.
"Other governments, including the European Union, have been far more lax. "
Neoliberalism is an affliction that affects leadership on both sides of the Atlantic. There should be criminal proceedings against every single VW executive who was in charge and knew what was going on. The German government should be prosecuting each and every one of them in criminal court and the DOJ should have proceeded to act jointly with Germany in criminal proceedings.
The fact that companies are allowed to operate after perpetrating crimes on such a grand scale just goes to show the depth and breadth of the rot in Western society. Had a small business done something like this on a smaller scale, its owner would have long been under lock and key and its business shuttered.
At the heart of every big scandal is a breakdown in ethics.
--
Ronald Dworkin vs. Milton Friedman: http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/09/from-milton-friedman-to-ronald-dworkin-...
"Other governments, including the European Union, have been far more lax. "
Neoliberalism is an affliction that affects leadership on both sides of the Atlantic. There should be criminal proceedings against every single VW executive who was in charge and knew what was going on. The German government should be prosecuting each and every one of them in criminal court and the DOJ should have proceeded to act jointly with Germany in criminal proceedings.
The fact that companies are allowed to operate after perpetrating crimes on such a grand scale just goes to show the depth and breadth of the rot in Western society. Had a small business done something like this on a smaller scale, its owner would have long been under lock and key and its business shuttered.
At the heart of every big scandal is a breakdown in ethics.
--
Ronald Dworkin vs. Milton Friedman: http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/09/from-milton-friedman-to-ronald-dworkin-...
4
According to a pdf document on the EPA website, american Urban Buses emit on average 14.783 g NOX per mile, School Diesel Buses emit 10.536 g/NOX per mile and School Gasoline buses on average 7.433 g NOX per mile. Compared to the measured average of 0.24g NOX per Mile on an 2013 Passat TDI(limit was 0.07g/mile for passanger cars) you should push the government to stp using dirty buses. The buses in a town like new york emit more NOX than all the sold VW diesel in the wohle US.
9
Kai,
All true, but that's a different kind of crime and not a fraud perpetrated on trusting customers, for profit, due to corporate greed.
All true, but that's a different kind of crime and not a fraud perpetrated on trusting customers, for profit, due to corporate greed.
2
Wondering when the EPA will turn on domestic companies... probably never.
This is just a part of a world war fought not with arms but economically. Let's see who will try to swoop up big shares of Volkswagen now: Apple? Google? Tesla?
This is just a part of a world war fought not with arms but economically. Let's see who will try to swoop up big shares of Volkswagen now: Apple? Google? Tesla?
3
It's rather odd that the EU enforces cucumber and banana rules to guard against against excess curvature while giving a nod and a wink to lawless cheating on auto emissions that produces air pollution responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths annually in Europe.
First things first.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
First things first.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
4
How did the consumers of these vehicles lose? What monetary loss have they actually suffered? None. In fact, they avoided paying penalties for cars that arbitrary inspection protocols would have penalized.
Somehow, the "carbon footprint" of the US has declined over the years that VW was selling these vehicles. So it's obvious to anyone with a 2nd-grade math skill that VW didn't "harm" the consumers - as if such "harm" can actually be measured.
The Editorial Board is once again full throttle on the "dangers" of Global Warming. Yet they haven't a single degree in a real science among them.
Somehow, the "carbon footprint" of the US has declined over the years that VW was selling these vehicles. So it's obvious to anyone with a 2nd-grade math skill that VW didn't "harm" the consumers - as if such "harm" can actually be measured.
The Editorial Board is once again full throttle on the "dangers" of Global Warming. Yet they haven't a single degree in a real science among them.
4
Here is a simple analogy. If you were buying a used car, would you pay the same amount for one that was completely demolished and rebuilt vs. one that has never suffered collision damage? Are they worth exactly the same to you?
2
You are giving credit where NO credit is due.
The New York TImes editorial Board would allow fracking that releases putrid fumes into the atmosphere that cause Global Climate Change. They ignore the science that shows the total damage during extraction and combustion and is worse or at least as bad as using coal.
Allowing fracking is part of their thinking when they chose Hillary as better over Bernie. It is also the reason that the New York Times reported that some Republican presidential candidates like Bush and Kasich are not climate change deniers. Yet both are on record they would not stop fracking, which by the way is not allowed in Europe. In fact both Bush and Kasich would ignore the Paris accord NOT because it too weak as responsible politicians like Bernie Sanders would, but because it would threaten the economy (as if climate change is not the BIGGEST threat to the economy.) So what is the policy differences between Trump's "Global Climate Change is a Chinese conspiracy - something going on there" and Bush, Rubio, and Kasich? They would all eliminate Obama's Clean Power Plan, they would permit the Keystone Pipeline XL pipeline, and they all do not oppose offshore drilling. How would Trump be able to be worse on Global Climate change? Hillary is better on these issues but not on fracking.
In my view future historians would see the NYTimes reporting on fracking as being worse than the reporting of threats leading up to the Iraq invasion.
The New York TImes editorial Board would allow fracking that releases putrid fumes into the atmosphere that cause Global Climate Change. They ignore the science that shows the total damage during extraction and combustion and is worse or at least as bad as using coal.
Allowing fracking is part of their thinking when they chose Hillary as better over Bernie. It is also the reason that the New York Times reported that some Republican presidential candidates like Bush and Kasich are not climate change deniers. Yet both are on record they would not stop fracking, which by the way is not allowed in Europe. In fact both Bush and Kasich would ignore the Paris accord NOT because it too weak as responsible politicians like Bernie Sanders would, but because it would threaten the economy (as if climate change is not the BIGGEST threat to the economy.) So what is the policy differences between Trump's "Global Climate Change is a Chinese conspiracy - something going on there" and Bush, Rubio, and Kasich? They would all eliminate Obama's Clean Power Plan, they would permit the Keystone Pipeline XL pipeline, and they all do not oppose offshore drilling. How would Trump be able to be worse on Global Climate change? Hillary is better on these issues but not on fracking.
In my view future historians would see the NYTimes reporting on fracking as being worse than the reporting of threats leading up to the Iraq invasion.
3
VW diesel buyers got cars that were cheaper to run than advertised due to cheating on emissions. So buyers saved money and we ALL got more pollution. The amount paid to the US Government was inadequate.
5
What was the health impact of this pollution? This not hard to calculate. Increased respiratory disease from asthma and bronchitis harmed everyone NOT just the drivers of these cars. The magnitude of increased health costs and human suffering at central to meaningful assessment of damages.
3
I own a VW 2.0 diesel auto. I will opt to have it repaired. The vehicle has been one of the best, if not the best, vehicles I have ever owned. I'm not disgusted with VW's actions--there have been many issues with both foreign and domestic car companies that have sold vehicles that were unsafe and caused direct injury/death to it's owners. This is not the case in this regard.
I chuckle when I get fuel next to a diesel truck that is blowing soot while my vehicle, under certain circumstances, is 40X above the limit. What is not reported is the 40X limit is only achieved at certain speeds and driving conditions; not all the time.
So I'll take my repair and reduced performance (I'm getting 50 mpg now) and whatever cash they are offering me. My next vehicle will be a Range Rover. They just came out with a nice new diesel model.
I chuckle when I get fuel next to a diesel truck that is blowing soot while my vehicle, under certain circumstances, is 40X above the limit. What is not reported is the 40X limit is only achieved at certain speeds and driving conditions; not all the time.
So I'll take my repair and reduced performance (I'm getting 50 mpg now) and whatever cash they are offering me. My next vehicle will be a Range Rover. They just came out with a nice new diesel model.
5
Half a million car owners get a payout of 5-10 thousand dollars each for being misled!! And they get their car re-bought or repaired.
So yes, a very nice stimulus package. But imagine spending that instead on vegetable-farms for school meals, or free-range chicken coups for local communities, or any number of general small scale projects to foster effective use of the environment.
So yes, a very nice stimulus package. But imagine spending that instead on vegetable-farms for school meals, or free-range chicken coups for local communities, or any number of general small scale projects to foster effective use of the environment.
1
As a 2012 VW diesel Jetta Sportswagen owner I have decided to never buy another VW vehicle. Even if VW offers a 'too-good-to-pass-up' deal if I buy another VW with my settlement money, I refuse to give one more cent to this sneaky, unethical, loser company. As soon as I get my money I will be sure to tell them where to put their 'Fahrvergnügen'!
5
I think the most important concession VW made was to invest $2 billion over the next 10 years in zero-emissions vehicle infrastructure like charging stations for electric cars. This is best answer! Forget dirty fossil fuels, forget oil, forget fracking for putrid "natural" gas, forget coal and let's move to the clean energy economy.
I cannot wait to put my hands on a beautiful VW electric car.
I cannot wait to put my hands on a beautiful VW electric car.
13
Um, the power plants used to generate the electricity that use coal and natural gas will continue to do so. There is little net benefit.
Um, I was expecting and waiting for this OLD thinking to show it ugly head.
If you noticed coal companies are going out of business faster than you can count them going bankrupt and global wind power is doubling every three or four years. Do the math at this rate dirty fossil fuels would be out of the picture in one decade or two at most.
Obviously you are shooting from the hip without any science to back your claim "There is little net benefit", which is total nonsense if you do the math as coal electricity is fast going the way of the dinosaurs.
Last year alone China installed more wind turbines in a 12 month period than the rest of the world.
If you noticed coal companies are going out of business faster than you can count them going bankrupt and global wind power is doubling every three or four years. Do the math at this rate dirty fossil fuels would be out of the picture in one decade or two at most.
Obviously you are shooting from the hip without any science to back your claim "There is little net benefit", which is total nonsense if you do the math as coal electricity is fast going the way of the dinosaurs.
Last year alone China installed more wind turbines in a 12 month period than the rest of the world.
1
These compensations are amazing! The Bhopal tragedy that affected a million people and caused thousands of deaths led to a pittance of 900 million $ settlement in today's dollars.
3
The victims were not the car owners, they were the people who breathed the exhaust.
1
There are many other ways that auto makers and dealerships are taking advantage of consumers. The automobile business is one of the biggest con games there is. We're all suckers.
2
The article states: "The E.U. concedes that diesel cars sold there have exceeded allowable emissions levels but has given automakers several years to bring their products into compliance. This can only harm public health."
Why would the E.U. with their advanced social programs make this decision?
Consider this:
- Volkswagen just announced raises, bonuses, and other incentives for it's German workers.
- A German state government (Lower Saxony) is one of the largest shareholders.
- Volkswagen is one of the E.U. largest companies.
Why would Germany and the E.U. want to kick one of their most important economic engines when it is down?
How would a big fine clean up the European air any faster instead of just fixing the problem?
It can appear that the US thinks a huge lawsuit and settlement is the best solution when things go wrong. On the other hand, the E.U. tends to have a more practical and constructive approach for the most part. Rest assured, they will get the emissions problems solved, without costing VW jobs, and many other supplier jobs.
Why would the E.U. with their advanced social programs make this decision?
Consider this:
- Volkswagen just announced raises, bonuses, and other incentives for it's German workers.
- A German state government (Lower Saxony) is one of the largest shareholders.
- Volkswagen is one of the E.U. largest companies.
Why would Germany and the E.U. want to kick one of their most important economic engines when it is down?
How would a big fine clean up the European air any faster instead of just fixing the problem?
It can appear that the US thinks a huge lawsuit and settlement is the best solution when things go wrong. On the other hand, the E.U. tends to have a more practical and constructive approach for the most part. Rest assured, they will get the emissions problems solved, without costing VW jobs, and many other supplier jobs.
3
The Times, along with every other commentator to address this issue, fails to recognize that it is carbon dioxide not nitrogen oxide which is causing global climate disruption and which is likely to kill off the human race. Nitrogen oxide is a foul pollutant but it kills mostly those close to the car emitting it, which in my case (a rural setting) is myself and my family. I accept this in return for producing approximately a third less carbon dioxide than an equivalent gasoline engine for each mile that I drive. Over the course of its life my VW will produce vast quantities less of CO2, partially because many of its miles are driven using waste veggie oil instead of what is called dinodiesel, and this is why I will continue to drive it.
4
What about the other victims. The public that has to breathe the pollutants produced by these cars. These are the people the pollution controls were designed to protect. Some of the settlement money should be spent on research to make cars cleaner.
2
The cynical exploitation of consumers doesn't stop with VW. The State of California which presents itself as representing the consumer in this issue is not blameless. I am a VW Golf diesel owner. It is one of the "rigged" cars. My recent registration renewal from the CA DMV demanded that I have an emissions test before my registration can be renewed. The last time it cost $58. Now the State mandates that I pay up again for a test it knows is a fraud. It's enough to make me vote for Trump and that takes a lot.
6
Even by most extreme calculation as to the reduction in life time the additional pollution may have caused (60 ) may have caused [1], the damage death toll is smaller than the 124 death GM ignition lock fault caused [2] - with a far more drastic reduction in life time
And yet GM got away with $ 900 million.
Foreign companies may be wondering if the US has one justice for US companies, and other one for foreign ones.
[1] Study: Volkswagen’s emissions cheat to cause 60 premature deaths in U.S.
http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60-premature-d...
[2] GM ignition switch deaths hit 124
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/07/13/gm-ignition-switch-d...
And yet GM got away with $ 900 million.
Foreign companies may be wondering if the US has one justice for US companies, and other one for foreign ones.
[1] Study: Volkswagen’s emissions cheat to cause 60 premature deaths in U.S.
http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60-premature-d...
[2] GM ignition switch deaths hit 124
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/07/13/gm-ignition-switch-d...
3
According to the EPA, the VW cheating may cause 60 or so excess deaths per year, widely regarded as an outrage. Tobacco, in contrast, causes about 250,000 extra deaths per year, and of course the obesity epidemic brought to us by the junk food purveyors adds another few 100,000 early deaths plus a huge cost in diabetes and other illnesses. And what about all of the over the road and delivery delivery trucks that are not regulated? And old cars (pre 2000) that spew out toxic materials? Even medical errors are said now to be killing about 100,000 people per year. Get real folks, and put your anger where it will do some good. Bicycles kill far more people than VW diesels. And then there are guns to consider....
Yes, a big fine for VW is needed. And also insist they adopt the technology used successfully by Mercedes and BMW to control emissions in all cars produced after a date certain. Then go after the real villains in the industrial world who do the most harm.
Yes, a big fine for VW is needed. And also insist they adopt the technology used successfully by Mercedes and BMW to control emissions in all cars produced after a date certain. Then go after the real villains in the industrial world who do the most harm.
5
prosecuting some top officials of this cheating company and if convicted putting them in jail might help. i have no confidence that this will happen because it is obvious that such conduct would not have occured unless top management approved same and our government never likes to put top people in jail.. our government likes to put small people in jail and then take the credit for law and order.
2
Question: I traded my 2010 TDI Jetta in in March 2015 as I was sure that it was turning into a lemon. Will owners that got rid of their TDIs before the scandal broke be given a prorated portion of the $5100? I've not seen this issue discussed yet.
1
Read further. The settlement does address this question. The restitution splits between seller and buyer.
2
According to the proposed settlement at
http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement, "The goal of the Volkswagen Class Settlement Program is to compensate everyone who owned or leased a Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle (“Eligible Vehicle”) on September 18, 2015 (the date the emissions allegations became public), or who now own an Eligible Vehicle."
http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement, "The goal of the Volkswagen Class Settlement Program is to compensate everyone who owned or leased a Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle (“Eligible Vehicle”) on September 18, 2015 (the date the emissions allegations became public), or who now own an Eligible Vehicle."
1
Why not just bankrupt VW and have GM acquire the corpse.
What they did was wrong, but let's not stand around like hyenas picking over the bones.
What they did was wrong, but let's not stand around like hyenas picking over the bones.
5
I work with a guy who bought one of these cars, heard all about the numerous test drives, his late-night number crunching, how it came down to the wire -- either a Prius or the VW Jetta -- and how proud he was of making what he thought was the smartest purchase, the Jetta.
He grew up in a blue collar household, has watched with pride as both his children graduated from college, how his grandchildren are homeschooled by their dedicated parents. He remembers how his own father felt lucky to own a car at all, and never could afford to buy a new one.
He told me he now feels like he wants to pull over on the side of the road and apologize to every pedestrian he passes while driving his pollution-spewing vehicle, for dirtying up the atmosphere he thought he was helping to clean up.
He's such a dedicated family man, and there is nothing that angers him more right now than being sold this bill of goods.
I hope guys like him get the best possible deal from VW.
He grew up in a blue collar household, has watched with pride as both his children graduated from college, how his grandchildren are homeschooled by their dedicated parents. He remembers how his own father felt lucky to own a car at all, and never could afford to buy a new one.
He told me he now feels like he wants to pull over on the side of the road and apologize to every pedestrian he passes while driving his pollution-spewing vehicle, for dirtying up the atmosphere he thought he was helping to clean up.
He's such a dedicated family man, and there is nothing that angers him more right now than being sold this bill of goods.
I hope guys like him get the best possible deal from VW.
44
Good to know that most of those cars were sold in Europe, isn’t it? The Brits might hope that most of them were sold in Brussels.
Now, how many of us have been caught behind diesel-fueled trucks and buses? Breathing those good-mood-killing exhaust fumes, how many of us were sufficiently channeling Einstein to think that we could buy a diesel-fueled car that was GOOD for the environment? And if we did it to save money on fuel, how’s that been working out, with diesel selling for significantly if not substantially more than gas (U.S. Energy Information Administration)? The U.S. settlement, and the inevitable Euro settlements to come, merely represent subsidies for the intellectually impaired among us. Care to take odds that most were progressives?
Volkswagen personnel committed crimes of fraud, apart from violating environmental law and regulatory prohibitions. But their motivation might have been to appropriately exploit the gullible rather than be forced to be more creative so as to exploit the canny. They should be given points as punishments are devised that acknowledge a productive sense of emphasis.
Now, how many of us have been caught behind diesel-fueled trucks and buses? Breathing those good-mood-killing exhaust fumes, how many of us were sufficiently channeling Einstein to think that we could buy a diesel-fueled car that was GOOD for the environment? And if we did it to save money on fuel, how’s that been working out, with diesel selling for significantly if not substantially more than gas (U.S. Energy Information Administration)? The U.S. settlement, and the inevitable Euro settlements to come, merely represent subsidies for the intellectually impaired among us. Care to take odds that most were progressives?
Volkswagen personnel committed crimes of fraud, apart from violating environmental law and regulatory prohibitions. But their motivation might have been to appropriately exploit the gullible rather than be forced to be more creative so as to exploit the canny. They should be given points as punishments are devised that acknowledge a productive sense of emphasis.
I have driven over 2,000 miles in CA and OR in the last two weeks, and diesel is always less expensive nowadays and diesels always get better mileage than gasoline powered vehicles.
How did the buyers become victims? The government agencies may have been misled, but the buyers just keep driving along.
How did the buyers become victims? The government agencies may have been misled, but the buyers just keep driving along.
3
Respiratory disease.
Phil:
It may be that CA and OR decided to tax diesel less than gas, but the U.S. Energy Information Administration has diesel at ten cents per gallon higher on average nationally than gas.
It may be that CA and OR decided to tax diesel less than gas, but the U.S. Energy Information Administration has diesel at ten cents per gallon higher on average nationally than gas.
Let this be a lesson to all major multinational corporations. Your fiduciary responsibility to your shareholders can only be maintained by not misleading your customers and fraudulently skirting regulations. Those regulations are in place to protect your customers and the public at large.
This scandal was born of short term profits. It costs many, many millions to develop a new engine. No question about that. Those new engines will in turn be used in millions of cars. The scope and scale of this malfeasance is mind boggling. And for what?
The engine could not meet specs. Its production should have been stopped and the problems worked out. That delay would also no doubt have cost many millions, perhaps many tens of millions or even much more. But they tried to pull a sneaky and got caught. Now they are on the hook for over $15 billion and that is just in America.
Remember the BP oil spill? That occurred because the bore was not completely filled with concrete. Only three plugs were poured in order to save money. How much was saved? $1 million? BP ended up spending tens of billions for mess.
Some people just can't learn from the mistakes of others. Volkswagen is now some people. Think about this the next time a corporate titian claims success in business is a qualification to hold high office. (Success often means I didn't get caught).
This scandal was born of short term profits. It costs many, many millions to develop a new engine. No question about that. Those new engines will in turn be used in millions of cars. The scope and scale of this malfeasance is mind boggling. And for what?
The engine could not meet specs. Its production should have been stopped and the problems worked out. That delay would also no doubt have cost many millions, perhaps many tens of millions or even much more. But they tried to pull a sneaky and got caught. Now they are on the hook for over $15 billion and that is just in America.
Remember the BP oil spill? That occurred because the bore was not completely filled with concrete. Only three plugs were poured in order to save money. How much was saved? $1 million? BP ended up spending tens of billions for mess.
Some people just can't learn from the mistakes of others. Volkswagen is now some people. Think about this the next time a corporate titian claims success in business is a qualification to hold high office. (Success often means I didn't get caught).
38
We should put volkswagen out of business by not buying their products. No one can convince me that this wasn't system wide corruption on a global scale. To add to the downward spiral OUR United States Supreme Court just made it easier for politicians to be corrupt and be corrupted. Looks like it is up to we average citizens in America and around the world to demand honesty and integrity from ourselves and our business/political leaders. OUR votes and consumer dollars can change the world and November 8 cannot come soon enough to get us started.
12
....aaaand what about the millions of VW owners who don't have a diesel?... or a diesel that's not been compromised?
Nice to spout off though, but your opinion is more of a narrow/emotional view, is it not?
Nice to spout off though, but your opinion is more of a narrow/emotional view, is it not?
2
Yes, it is time to stop shaking our heads and saying tut, tut, tut - that's just business - about corruption. You should be more outraged than I am if you're an volkswagen owner. As one commenter said yesterday, those at the top should be held in MORE accountable and in more contempt than the lowly peons who lose their jobs over a petty theft. The world is out of balance and this kind of egregious, arrogant behavior by the supposed top dogs is the reason.
1
If a consumer bought a car thinking it got 40 miles to the gallon and it gets 35 he/she deserves compensation based on the average 12000 miles driven That comes to about 300 gallons versus 340 gallons per year. Multiply that by $3 and you get $120 per year.. So the actual damages are pretty small.
5
This is a Red Herring. Fuel efficiency had nothing to do with the actions that VW took. They recklessly and willfully disregarded the required emissions regulations set forth by the US Govt. and therefore its citizens. Not to mention that those individuals that purchased said vehicles were implicitly involved in the deception despite being sold an entirely different bill of goods. This deception was only designed to increase the bottom line at the real risk of people's health.
Oh, and by the way, those same vehicles are now worth 25% less in value after the cheating has been disclosed. That value equates to several thousands of dollars for many owners.
Oh, and by the way, those same vehicles are now worth 25% less in value after the cheating has been disclosed. That value equates to several thousands of dollars for many owners.
7
Volkswagen suffers an additional penalty beyond the terms of the Agreement. Hundreds of thousands of customers, now disgusted and disillusioned with this company, are unlikely to shop for a VW again for decades. The hit they have taken on their reputation in the market place may, over time, prove as great or greater than the costs they must directly incur with this Agreement.
If VW has any marketing sense, they should offer to sell buyback customers replacement cars at manufacturer's cost. At least that will keep those customers in a VW until the anger wears off, and keep them visiting the VW independent dealers, who were innocent, but nevertheless are beleaguered by these bizarre events.
If VW has any marketing sense, they should offer to sell buyback customers replacement cars at manufacturer's cost. At least that will keep those customers in a VW until the anger wears off, and keep them visiting the VW independent dealers, who were innocent, but nevertheless are beleaguered by these bizarre events.
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True. I test drove five Golf's last summer and decided to delay my purchase decision until I returned home from vacation. The news broke during my vacation. It would have been my first VW. I was so angry and I feel bad for the owners of VW. I'm still upset. No other car suits me like the Golf but there is no way I will ever purchase a VW now. They've lost a potential lifelong customer.
I like that idea RM, I want to stay in a VW, but they are going to have to give me real incentives to do so. One question I haven't been able to find an answer to is, does one have to be signed into the class-action suit to be subject to this settlement? Does anyone know?
why not prevent this crooked company from selling any cars in this country for 5 years? these people are no better than some organized companies that are engaged in legit business. in many cases, big businesses are no different than organized crime.