It's often said, never underestimate the ignorance of the American public. Looks like that can be said for the English public as well. The fear is that American ignorance will out Trump theirs by making the mistake of falling for a campaign of lies after the English have shown us the consequences.
10
I recently read the line that "it will take Great Britain two years to get out of the EU and then it willl spend the next five years trying to get back into it."
If a re-vote could be held today, I think the outcome would be far different now that the average Brit realizes that he was "conned" by the lies of the Brexit cabal led by opportunistic politicians named Boris Johnson and Forage. Plus watching the pound shrink and the value of everything you own also subject to that shrinkage has probably opened a few eyes to the reality that the Brexit vote entailed more than flag waving and yahoo Charley antics.
If a re-vote could be held today, I think the outcome would be far different now that the average Brit realizes that he was "conned" by the lies of the Brexit cabal led by opportunistic politicians named Boris Johnson and Forage. Plus watching the pound shrink and the value of everything you own also subject to that shrinkage has probably opened a few eyes to the reality that the Brexit vote entailed more than flag waving and yahoo Charley antics.
10
"We have nothing to fear but Brexit itself" could have been the words of Brits caught up in this disaster. Now, I usually don't care so much about European politics. This time, my 401k and savings are flashing red alert and my elderly parents are watching their retirement savings shrink because some idiots in suits manipulated an uneducated British public.
6
Cameron has passed the buck to Johnson and the Leavers. By taking time until October before quitting, he has turned on the head on the opposition to come up with their own realistic plans, which will either go against their promises in the lead-up to the referendum, or be rejected by the EU, leaving them empty-handed when they have to take over the sinking ship from Cameron.
Cameron has made sure that he can enjoy every minute until October. His opposition will be squirming and it is only a matter of time until the rats start leaving the sinking ship. It will be fun to watch.
Cameron has made sure that he can enjoy every minute until October. His opposition will be squirming and it is only a matter of time until the rats start leaving the sinking ship. It will be fun to watch.
4
Putting complex issues up to a public referendum is a dangerous practice that should be discouraged. An ill-informed and manipulated electorate is capable of inflicting serious and lasting damage not only to an entire country, but to many other countries as well. Upon victory, the Leavers characterized the vote as a renewal of democracy, a strong message to the global elite. Now, as reality sets in, they have buyer's remorse. Many voted based on reactionary emotions rather than sifting through the pros and cons. This referendum should be a lesson for representative democracies everywhere. Be careful of what you wish for.
6
Anyone else noticed how European leaders are saying how sad, how very sad they are, but at the same time urging Britain to get out as soon as possible (just to remove any uncertainty, of course!).
While there are risks from Britain's departure and economic decline, countries like Germany and France have a huge amount to gain as London dwindles as a financial center and Paris and Frankfurt grow, as thousands of companies and manufacturers start relocating to the EU, as EU producers profit because they have more favorable access to local markets than British ones (remember they are often in direct competition), and as the EU loses its most ambivalent, complaining member, thereby allowing the rest of the continent to get along with increasing growth and cooperation. So of course, Merkel, Hollande and Co. are very, very distressed by all this, and they can't wait to get on with developing their economies while Britain looks on stunned from the sidelines.
British voters, if you are not yet over your electoral hangover, it is time to wake up completely and start reversing your disastrous decision.
While there are risks from Britain's departure and economic decline, countries like Germany and France have a huge amount to gain as London dwindles as a financial center and Paris and Frankfurt grow, as thousands of companies and manufacturers start relocating to the EU, as EU producers profit because they have more favorable access to local markets than British ones (remember they are often in direct competition), and as the EU loses its most ambivalent, complaining member, thereby allowing the rest of the continent to get along with increasing growth and cooperation. So of course, Merkel, Hollande and Co. are very, very distressed by all this, and they can't wait to get on with developing their economies while Britain looks on stunned from the sidelines.
British voters, if you are not yet over your electoral hangover, it is time to wake up completely and start reversing your disastrous decision.
7
Did anybody--either on Fleet Street or in American media--ever bother to try to follow the money backing BREXIT? Considering who owns prime London real estate through shell corporations, not to mention prime Manhattan real estate as a money laundry/hedge, this would prove an interesting piece of investigation.
Many lies were told to the gullible British populace about how BREXIT savings would be channeled into National Health, lies later walked back by the likes of Farrage and Johnson (whose coiffure bears a nodding resemblance to Don the Con's Scheitel/wig).
Just lie Goebbels's propaganda shaped German opinion from 1933-45, the media and their lack of objective reporting or digging deeper shapes ignorance on both sides of the Atlantic, with demonstrable results.
Many lies were told to the gullible British populace about how BREXIT savings would be channeled into National Health, lies later walked back by the likes of Farrage and Johnson (whose coiffure bears a nodding resemblance to Don the Con's Scheitel/wig).
Just lie Goebbels's propaganda shaped German opinion from 1933-45, the media and their lack of objective reporting or digging deeper shapes ignorance on both sides of the Atlantic, with demonstrable results.
5
Perhaps the Brits are reacting to the corruption within the London banking system that have been front-page news and caused the suicides of many of the top bankers recently. The only thing that will save the European Union, the EU, Wall Street and other " markets" is SERIOUS regulation to prevent further theft by the top 1% global financial elite. Average people around the world have had enough of OUR taxpayer, 401K and consumer wealth being stolen.
5
Everyone is just posturing until the election in France next year. Brexit gives Le Pin a boost and if she defeats the weak Holland and leads France out of the EU all bets are off.
1
If that happens, Michael S., you know the top 1% global financial elite are behind it and will profit even more from the added chaos. They have a plan and it doesn't bode well for the rest of us.
3
Not really. Economic data from Britain will certainly scare the French voter.
1
The shambolic results of direct democracy on major policy issues can be seen here.
Did the voters get, as we do in California, assessments of the consequences on many levels by objective analysts; did they have voter pamphlets with arguments pro and con--or did they just rely on Murdoch media? It is extremely foolish to imagine that pundits and spokespersons on each side are all the (d)isinformation the public would need to make the choice.
Thank heavens our Constitution has such a lengthy process to check and double check its amendment process.
Did the voters get, as we do in California, assessments of the consequences on many levels by objective analysts; did they have voter pamphlets with arguments pro and con--or did they just rely on Murdoch media? It is extremely foolish to imagine that pundits and spokespersons on each side are all the (d)isinformation the public would need to make the choice.
Thank heavens our Constitution has such a lengthy process to check and double check its amendment process.
7
The entire world got hosed by these Brexit fools.
3
Seems David Cameron blew it on this one. Not only is he indifferent and tone deaf, but clearly lacking in leadership abilities. He never should have left this to a referendum. What an epic fail. It didn't help that the tabloids created a panic that drove people to vote leave. Clearly, there were no adults in the room. Who's in charge??
2
Captain Boris: "We never liked this European ship much anyway! Let's all jump overboard!!"
British Voters: "Wheeeeeee!!!!" (many splashing noises).
Captain Boris: "Er, did anyone think of launching the lifeboats first?"
British Voters: "Oh my God, we thought you were going to take care of that ..."
British Voters: "Wheeeeeee!!!!" (many splashing noises).
Captain Boris: "Er, did anyone think of launching the lifeboats first?"
British Voters: "Oh my God, we thought you were going to take care of that ..."
8
What a joke. An election was held, one side won the majority and now the ruling side says it want a do-over because the result is not what it wanted or anticipated?
How is this democracy.
We make mess in the middle east while claiming we are the bringer of democracy and we can’t even get this very basic ideal of democracy right.
We are a bunch of little children, aren’t we, why should we be listened to?
How is this democracy.
We make mess in the middle east while claiming we are the bringer of democracy and we can’t even get this very basic ideal of democracy right.
We are a bunch of little children, aren’t we, why should we be listened to?
3
The Brexit vote is a clear example of how ignorance, lies and fear will lead to a vote with buyer's remorse the day after (many expressing they want a re-vote). This could happen in America. Anger, hate and fear seem to trump facts. Let’s pray the Brexit vote will open the eyes of those Americans sitting on the sidelines to see the importance of becoming politically involved and to vote intelligently; taking the time to know who you are voting for, against and why. The soul and integrity of our country is at stake.
10
@Live from Chicago
If we are going to read a repetition of the conviction that George W. Bush did not win a majority of the votes in Florida, please provide us all with the vote total proving that Albert Gore received more votes. I've been waiting for that for more than a decade and I've yet to see the numbers.
If we are going to read a repetition of the conviction that George W. Bush did not win a majority of the votes in Florida, please provide us all with the vote total proving that Albert Gore received more votes. I've been waiting for that for more than a decade and I've yet to see the numbers.
3
Gore won the popular vote by a margin of 500,000 votes. It is public record.
4
Watch closely, America, because this is what happens when Trumpians take the wheel.
12
Corbyn's exit stage Left is one of the few positives to come out of the Brexit fiasco. This is a man who never met a bankrupt (no pun intended) socialist idea he didn't like. As Britain's Bernie Sanders his take on government was simple and explicit: "Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country can do for you."
4
Good for Britain! And good for the EU too! All of the perceived economic hardships that are coming because of this vote, are only "gloom and doom" predictions by the failed economists who think they know it all.
4
Trump could probably buy Newcastle on Tyne, and hire a tutor to learn Geordie. First words: "I luv my mum."
This is a real question: Is there anything positive about this, in real terms, not just for the UK but for the world? How could so many people vote for something that is clearly, according to most reports in the press, so very destructive? Are we deciding in advance that this decision will bring ruin? Can nothing be salvaged? What if the decision--like it or not--were accepted and everyone made the best of it, quite literally? What would that look like, I wonder?
3
It would probably be a decade of economic turmoil while the UK ends up re-negotiating some kind of favored trade status with the EU, in exchange for voluntarily adopting vast majority if EU regulations.
3
There is nothing positive about this for Britain.
Half of their trade is in the EU Single Market. Proponents of Leave or Brexit claimed the UK spends to much toward Brussels budget and takes in too many immigrants.
But to trade in the EU Single Market like non EU members Switzerland and Norway, they still need to contribute to the Brussels EU administration budget and they still must allow Free Movement of labor in the EU.
Switzerland and Norway have higher per capita immigration rates than does the UK.
The only difference is that now Britain has no voice in the EU toward budget matters and will now trade at disadvantaged trade terms. They will renegotiated over a period of years, hurting British businesses, and the new terms must be punitive to discourage future EU exits.
It will permanently reduce UK GDP, cause inflation and unemployment to rise, reduce living standards, and probably lead to Scotland and perhaps Northern Ireland leaving the UK for the EU.
The bright side for the rest of the globe is that it could be a catalyst for the EU to complete the structural reforms that are necessary to function more effectively.
It will also highlight the danger of Trumpism - that is choosing nationalism and nativism over economics and sound polices.
Free trade and immigrants are just scape goats.
The real economic problem is fair wealth and income distribution of the benefits of free trade and immigration to the general populace, not just the wealthiest interests.
Half of their trade is in the EU Single Market. Proponents of Leave or Brexit claimed the UK spends to much toward Brussels budget and takes in too many immigrants.
But to trade in the EU Single Market like non EU members Switzerland and Norway, they still need to contribute to the Brussels EU administration budget and they still must allow Free Movement of labor in the EU.
Switzerland and Norway have higher per capita immigration rates than does the UK.
The only difference is that now Britain has no voice in the EU toward budget matters and will now trade at disadvantaged trade terms. They will renegotiated over a period of years, hurting British businesses, and the new terms must be punitive to discourage future EU exits.
It will permanently reduce UK GDP, cause inflation and unemployment to rise, reduce living standards, and probably lead to Scotland and perhaps Northern Ireland leaving the UK for the EU.
The bright side for the rest of the globe is that it could be a catalyst for the EU to complete the structural reforms that are necessary to function more effectively.
It will also highlight the danger of Trumpism - that is choosing nationalism and nativism over economics and sound polices.
Free trade and immigrants are just scape goats.
The real economic problem is fair wealth and income distribution of the benefits of free trade and immigration to the general populace, not just the wealthiest interests.
6
even the liberal Guardian has to admit the kind of nonsense that EU bureaucracy was imposing on everybody, just imagine this sort of government here:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/10-best-euro-myths-from-...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/10-best-euro-myths-from-...
4
Did you actually read the article you linked? The article points out almost all of the more outrageous examples EU bureaucratic excess were either fiction or highly exaggerated. The real proposals were usually mundane and, in most cases, never carried out.
If anything, the article proves the "Brussels bureaucrats" are not nearly as crazy as "Leave" proponents make them out to be, and a lot of the impetus behind "Leave" has been based on fiction and urban legends.
If anything, the article proves the "Brussels bureaucrats" are not nearly as crazy as "Leave" proponents make them out to be, and a lot of the impetus behind "Leave" has been based on fiction and urban legends.
5
Maybe it's time for a do over on Brexit?
1
I keep coming back to one of my favorite quotes by HL Mencken:
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
Frankly, I think this whole business of subjecting major questions about the future of a county to a popular referendum is absurd. The whole point of a representative democracy is for the voters to choose leaders who can hopefully make more rational, informed decisions than the average person could. Sure, it doesn't always work out that way. But I've yet to see any evidence that government by popular plebiscite functions much better.
Obviously, the EU is a flawed institution. You could make a pretty strong argument that it's done a relatively poor job of creating the prosperity and security it was created to secure. Alas, this campaign and this result does not appear to have been driven by a rational consideration of those points. It appears to have been driven by prejudices, irrational fears, and outright lies.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
Frankly, I think this whole business of subjecting major questions about the future of a county to a popular referendum is absurd. The whole point of a representative democracy is for the voters to choose leaders who can hopefully make more rational, informed decisions than the average person could. Sure, it doesn't always work out that way. But I've yet to see any evidence that government by popular plebiscite functions much better.
Obviously, the EU is a flawed institution. You could make a pretty strong argument that it's done a relatively poor job of creating the prosperity and security it was created to secure. Alas, this campaign and this result does not appear to have been driven by a rational consideration of those points. It appears to have been driven by prejudices, irrational fears, and outright lies.
6
If people are poor at deciding things for themselves, why would you think they are any better at selecting leaders?
5
You have all just witnessed what can happen when a country conducts an "All or Nothing" referendum. Countries should never do that.
The voting population has a General Election to select representatives to sit in Parliament to look after the peoples business.
Whether to remain or leave the UE has proved to be such an encompassing question, that should have been decided by the House of Commons and approved by the House of Lords. Not every Tom, Dick or Harry from every corner of the land.
A costly lesson? Of course it is. Learn from it and never do it again.
The voting population has a General Election to select representatives to sit in Parliament to look after the peoples business.
Whether to remain or leave the UE has proved to be such an encompassing question, that should have been decided by the House of Commons and approved by the House of Lords. Not every Tom, Dick or Harry from every corner of the land.
A costly lesson? Of course it is. Learn from it and never do it again.
4
The Corbyn coup is disgusting - just disgusting. Reports from the UK suggest that it was planned in advance - what a time to spring it, when the country really needs at least some locus of stability. Whatever Margaret Hodge wrote, Labour is well on its way to oblivion anyway.
Which is criminal. That anyone could even remotely think that Nicky Morgan (who pushed turning all schools into "academies" last spring) could be PM is bizarre. It just shows how shallow the political talent pool in the UK has become ...
Which is criminal. That anyone could even remotely think that Nicky Morgan (who pushed turning all schools into "academies" last spring) could be PM is bizarre. It just shows how shallow the political talent pool in the UK has become ...
1
All of these American posters cheering Brexit have no idea what they are on about. It is not their country that will be ripped apart, their currency isn't tanking, and they aren't in for a second recession. American ignorance of British politics is already staggering. When it is combined with gleefully dancing on our graves it is just repulsive beyond compare.....and that is even before we hit the generational aspects of it all! My guess is the average NYT commenter is about the same age as your average Leave voter....
Young people already have a life of them cleaning up the messes created by previous generations (climate change, income inequality, neoliberalism).....it looks like that mess just got even bigger last week.
Young people already have a life of them cleaning up the messes created by previous generations (climate change, income inequality, neoliberalism).....it looks like that mess just got even bigger last week.
5
Too many of us read The Telegraph, if not the Sun.
Have to say that if I were a Brit I would have voted to stay (and no, I am not young) but am thrilled to see the pound plummet as I feel it has been grossly overvalued for years, if not decades. If this is what it takes to get it down to where it belongs, then so be it.
Most of what you say is quite true. Young people are talking about this on Twitter, not here. As an American, I have noticed that even my better informed fellow Americans have an extremely tenuous grasp of everything outside their own country. I have had to point out a couple times that "England," versus "UK" or "Britain," are not the same things. That difference is extremely relevant now given "Remain" is a significant majority position in Scotland and Northern Ireland and there is talk of independence referendums in the wake of Brexit.
3
To the British parliament you make the important decisions of state, not the great unwashed. You made a stupid mistake. Don’t compound it by injuring the nation.
Put a question to the House: “Shall the UK leave the Eurozone and implement a plebicite or shall it refuse to do so and refuse to compound an error and leave such matters up to a democratically elected parliament?”
Put a question to the House: “Shall the UK leave the Eurozone and implement a plebicite or shall it refuse to do so and refuse to compound an error and leave such matters up to a democratically elected parliament?”
1
Yes, but shouldn't questions put to the vote eschew the need for a willing suspension of disbelief by the voters?
The Conservative party leadership in England, personified by David Cameron, led themselves into a trap with the Brexit vote. Understand, please, I am an abiding believer and supporter of democracy and the capacity of people to decide for themselves what their future will be and to countermand the decisions of elite rulers. YET, PUSH PAUSE HERE: the EU project was 40 to 60 yrs in the making. Such an endeavor, with such wide ranging implications, should never be undone by a single, simple majority vote. LEAVE should have required some sort of supermajority, at least 60% or even 66%.
Why? First, the issue is just too important. Secondly, the whole process of leaving the EU appears to be vastly complicated, one that will take changes in hundreds of laws and thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of business and banking relationships. In this country, we require a unanimous decision by juries for criminal convictions. This is to avoid errors, yet errors occur again and again. If something like Brexit is truly worthy, then a super majority should be willing to support it and suffer the consequences.
Another option would have been to require a second vote for the decision to be binding. Full, careful consideration should have been required anyway.
We have deep regional divisions in our own nation, but if any such ideas were ever put to a vote here, we should never be so foolish, so downright stupid, as the British were in this mangled mess they have made.
2
Right wing demagogery is easy, cheap and very effective for ignorant people. It worked for the Boris Johnson in UK and is working for Trump in US. You just need to lie to people with easy solutions, then while in power, lie to people to blame others for the failures.
9
Apparently it works real well in North Carolina too, prompting a Liberal Boycott.
Dear NYT,
Please remind us all since when a Declaration of Independence by a nation should be regarded by conscientious americans as an evil deed deserving a full blown bashing campaign with venom sprays in every directions.
Please remind us all since when a Declaration of Independence by a nation should be regarded by conscientious americans as an evil deed deserving a full blown bashing campaign with venom sprays in every directions.
6
In the last couple of days I have seen and read many news reports of the British E. U. vote. I saw L saw Leavers say, "I voted to leave but I didn't think we would win. If I could vote again I would vote to stay. "What did they think they were voting for?
11
A summer without too much rain, prob'ly. And lots of ice cream.
3
It's interesting to compare the alarmist tone of the NYT with that of many leading European papers, whose main sentiment appears to be indifference or even "good riddance". What is clear is that the other European states will try to use this opportunity to demonstrate the grave consequences of Brexit. They will do all they can to make an example of this and turn this into a disaster for England. If it works it will help keep the rest of the union together. In that case it will not be the end of Europe but, most likely, the end of the United Kingdom.
3
Jeremy Corbyn is under pressure from those in his Labour party who never wanted him as leader in the first place, but they say Corbyn was not effective in running the 'Remain' campaign for the EU referendum.
But the EU referendum was nothing to do with Corbyn as it was the brainchild of Tory leader David Cameron, who thought it up, announced it and ran it.
Labour and the Tories are polar opposite parties in Westminster, so if Corbyn had helped Cameron to win the referendum, his enemies would have criticised that also!
Because the UK is to leave the EU the US is in a quandary because they have traditionally gained English speaking access through London, and that door is being closed.
Surely there is no need for quandary as the Republic of Ireland will still give English speaking access to the EU, and office property rentals and salaries in Dublin and its environs are at bargain prices by comparison - there are no downsides!
But the EU referendum was nothing to do with Corbyn as it was the brainchild of Tory leader David Cameron, who thought it up, announced it and ran it.
Labour and the Tories are polar opposite parties in Westminster, so if Corbyn had helped Cameron to win the referendum, his enemies would have criticised that also!
Because the UK is to leave the EU the US is in a quandary because they have traditionally gained English speaking access through London, and that door is being closed.
Surely there is no need for quandary as the Republic of Ireland will still give English speaking access to the EU, and office property rentals and salaries in Dublin and its environs are at bargain prices by comparison - there are no downsides!
1
These are the Tony Blair folks again, trying to ruin the Labour Party, but they will not succeed. Blairites did enough damage to Labour and Jeremy Corbyn is the optimistic response.
Before Brexit most voters only had campaign literature upon which to make their decision so it was easy to think that the Remain literature was misleading them by overstating the negatives of Brexit. Now that businesses are having to seriously consider leaving Britain for the Continent, taking billions of dollars of revenues and jobs with them things are looking worse than anyone imagined. The British are going to have to increase taxes to make up for the money that is leaving. Hundreds of millions of dollars of E.U. taxes pay for farm subsidies and R&D investments that must be made up by British taxes if many of these people are to keep their jobs. The more jobs that are lost the less income Britain will have to pay for education, roads, healthcare, public safety and other necessary public services. Now that the facts are overtaking the campaign literature the voters can make an informed decision about whether they want to bet their jobs or their farm on leaving or keep what they have and make other changes.
10
There is an increasing gap between the public understanding the complexity of issues, and ever increasing pace of change, and the expert class that promotes it. It does question the role of public as the basis for Democracy. Each vote makes sense if it is based on assumption that most people understand issues and are able to make informed decision. The Brexit vote in UK and the ascendance of Trump in US suggest that this is not true anymore. In both cases public ignorance and fears are being easily exploited by demagogues and their one-liner solutions.
So much has been written on the inability of "experts" and many pro-Remain politicians to explain to the public the benefits of UK staying in EU, while one Boris Johnson's line "UK will regain the control" probably did more to sway the public in the last few weeks before the referendum than any expert's complex explanation. There are other complex issues that are easily subject to demagoguery: trade agreements, role of government in consumer protections, etc.
These problems only underline the critical role education and access to unbiased information plays in politics. Churchill once said: "the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute talk to average voter". Seems like it still applies in UK.
So much has been written on the inability of "experts" and many pro-Remain politicians to explain to the public the benefits of UK staying in EU, while one Boris Johnson's line "UK will regain the control" probably did more to sway the public in the last few weeks before the referendum than any expert's complex explanation. There are other complex issues that are easily subject to demagoguery: trade agreements, role of government in consumer protections, etc.
These problems only underline the critical role education and access to unbiased information plays in politics. Churchill once said: "the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute talk to average voter". Seems like it still applies in UK.
7
I have been following the Brexit vote carefully for the past several years in the run up to this referendum. Some things to keep in mind:
1. The referendum itself has been a latent idea in British politics since joining the Common Market in 1970's where it was the Labour Party that was split--in part leading to the SDP-- when the last referendum was held. A young Conservative named Margret Thatcher helped campaign to stay in the Market. Issues about sovereignty, democracy, economics, and globalization were on the table then too and made strange political bedfellows (Tony Benn and Enoch Powell)
2. In the intervening 40 years or so, the political reality has changed so that now the Conservatives, who previously under Heath were all for the EU, have become indecorously split on the issue. In that 40 years major shifts in British politics--Thatcherism, Blarites, globalization, immigrants, a global recession and many, many treaty changes with the European Union--have left much of the politically conscious public totally exhausted. Many commentators have made note of the comparative lack of leadership we see today but few have noted we seem to expect a lot from such a long period of political tightrope walking and extremism.
It is historically unimaginative to pretend that this is the very first time the British have dealt with these issues. Similarly ridiculous to be duped into believing the situation isn't historically contingent. One can't jump out of history: you're in it!
1. The referendum itself has been a latent idea in British politics since joining the Common Market in 1970's where it was the Labour Party that was split--in part leading to the SDP-- when the last referendum was held. A young Conservative named Margret Thatcher helped campaign to stay in the Market. Issues about sovereignty, democracy, economics, and globalization were on the table then too and made strange political bedfellows (Tony Benn and Enoch Powell)
2. In the intervening 40 years or so, the political reality has changed so that now the Conservatives, who previously under Heath were all for the EU, have become indecorously split on the issue. In that 40 years major shifts in British politics--Thatcherism, Blarites, globalization, immigrants, a global recession and many, many treaty changes with the European Union--have left much of the politically conscious public totally exhausted. Many commentators have made note of the comparative lack of leadership we see today but few have noted we seem to expect a lot from such a long period of political tightrope walking and extremism.
It is historically unimaginative to pretend that this is the very first time the British have dealt with these issues. Similarly ridiculous to be duped into believing the situation isn't historically contingent. One can't jump out of history: you're in it!
5
"... circumventing the clear will of British voters would appear politically problematic for whoever succeeds Mr. Cameron". It will also be politically problematic for whoever initiates the move. Voters tend to forget who made the choice in the first place. Voter Selective Memory syndrome. (SMS)
2
Too much direct democracy is a bad idea as many of the populace are uniformed and driven by sensational newspaper stories. Our founders had it right. Beware of referendums!
7
This is what establishment politicians do. If you don't win the first time, keep running referendums until you get what you want. That's how the taxpayers and tourists wound up paying for new sport stadiums in Houston.
3
I don't believe one word he utters; I do have a major credibility problem with Mr Johnson.
3
And it is said that he is messy, disorganized and inattentive. Can you imagine having him in charge of anything, much less negotiating the terms of the Brexit?
5
I just hope Americans are paying close attention. The people of the United Kingdom voted. Those who lead the campaign to leave the E.U. sold them the theme of Nationalism. Now The Pound is at a 30year low and falling.World markets are free falling as I write this. This is the Same theme Donald Trump is selling. I read many regret their vote to leave the E.U. but the vote is done. America you have 5 months till you cast your vote on a New President. Pay close attention don't make the same mistake you will come to regret.
8
what will all th fear mongers say when brexit turns out to be a smashing success
5
We'll say, "Hey, how'd we get in this parallel dimension, where pi equals exactly 3?"
4
That not enough of the resulting wealth was spent on the minority estates of Brixton and Birmingham, prob'ly.
2
Cameron just handed the UK voter a gun and they used it to shoot off both their feet. The markets are now letting the Brits know that they no longer will be able to grow their economic future. They will muddle through, as always, slowly becoming poorer except for the upper classes who always manage to thrive. As for the rest of the economic world, the UK has been irrelevant for a long time now, so Brexit will not have serious impact for long.
7
Like their counterparts here, many Brits have become disillusioned with globalization. Indeed, most citizens of Western Europe and the US have failed to benefit from the movement of capital and labor, and some have suffered terribly. Yet no one in government, and certainly none of the international corporations and banks raking in obscene sums of money, cares a wit. Thus, we get protest votes and xenophobic candidates that make no sense until you look at the grander sweep of a globalizing crony capitalist system, brutal in its methods, and unaccountable for its actions.
5
Beware of referendums. Some issues should not decided that way. Imagine if the U.S. put such as school integration, gay marriage, and civil rights, e.g., up to referendum.
3
The raw truth is that the post WWII structures that have maintained peace and prosperity are unraveling which strengthens Russia, China and the Tribes of Western Europe.
1
At the end of the day, neither the UK nor EU will act to impede their economies -- so either the political agreement the EU has with the UK will be modified more to the UK's liking (as suggested in the article) or agreements that do not destroy the EU or UK economies will be reached as part of the breakup. This will happen even though the EU is having a knee-jerk reaction that causes them to want to punish the UK so as to discourage copycats.
On the political front, the Conservatives need to buffet Corbyn -- the Trump of British politics -- so that he remains the Labour leader through the next election. Having him removed would be bad news for the Tories.
On the political front, the Conservatives need to buffet Corbyn -- the Trump of British politics -- so that he remains the Labour leader through the next election. Having him removed would be bad news for the Tories.
The working class in the North America and Europe is doing badly, true. But the working class in South and East Asia is doing quite well under the globalization regime. The rejection of globalization that we see in the West is a rejection of capitalism when capitalism favors the other guy. Capitalism is just fine when we ride to wealth and glory on board!
5
It appears that the philosophy of Hillary almost pefectly overlays that of the "Stay in" supporters. It looks like the European momentum is moving away from her.
3
As far as Boris Johnson is concerned, I have heard he is messy and disorganized and has difficulty focusing for long periods, not exactly someone you would want in charge of anything important and/or technical, like negotiating the terms of Britain's withdrawal from the EU. Also, he might enhance his cedibility just a tad if he would retian hair and body stylists.
1
Months ago Sir Harold Evans, Editor at Large, Thomson Reuters & David Miliband had a "discussion" with a large backdrop of changing "photos", the "topic" - A DECADE OF DISORDER" MILLIONS ON THE MOVE. Miliband is now the Pres. & CEO of International Rescue Committee, oversees the agency's relief and development operations in over 30 countries...Miliband was head of Downing Street's Number 10 Policy Unit...graduated from Oxford etc, etc.
It would appear the "public" (the great long-term unwashed who are already in residence in places such as the UK) are concerned as to WHY millions of the world's citizens are washing up on European shores, babies washing up dead, etc..and appears to be precisely because of "foreign policy" that has no center to it - no "there" there.
The 1% is above the fray of what is happening and YET they are the very policy makers from Oxford and Harvard who are pulling the strings for the rest, telling the 99% "how to react". The public seems to not like being told how to think, washed or unwashed. So when a referendum "occurs" and Cameron's bluff is called, after the British public were INFORMED that some of his finances were derived from the "Panama Papers" (off shore $$) it becomes clear that the 99% (the great unwashed, as it were) wish to throw off the yoke put upon them by Oxfordians, Harvardians, who claim to be working in the "public interest".
It appears the public is suspicious of those on top.
How novel.
It would appear the "public" (the great long-term unwashed who are already in residence in places such as the UK) are concerned as to WHY millions of the world's citizens are washing up on European shores, babies washing up dead, etc..and appears to be precisely because of "foreign policy" that has no center to it - no "there" there.
The 1% is above the fray of what is happening and YET they are the very policy makers from Oxford and Harvard who are pulling the strings for the rest, telling the 99% "how to react". The public seems to not like being told how to think, washed or unwashed. So when a referendum "occurs" and Cameron's bluff is called, after the British public were INFORMED that some of his finances were derived from the "Panama Papers" (off shore $$) it becomes clear that the 99% (the great unwashed, as it were) wish to throw off the yoke put upon them by Oxfordians, Harvardians, who claim to be working in the "public interest".
It appears the public is suspicious of those on top.
How novel.
4
This decision by the 'angry people of England' will cause so much more harm to Britain than the 'leavers' realize or even understand. I hope for their own sake they can retract this ignoramus decision. Do British people really listen to Boris the Clown. OMG he got elected to be mayor and now possibilty of PM ??
The Brits needs to educate themselves before they let their emotions destroy them
The Brits needs to educate themselves before they let their emotions destroy them
1
Vladimir Putin would be laughing in his grave at all this if he were dead today.
2
UK population as a % of world population: 0.9%
EU population (excluding UK) as a % of world population: 6.0%
That means 94% of humanity is not part of the EU/UK breakup.
In the long term, Brexit is insignificant.
EU population (excluding UK) as a % of world population: 6.0%
That means 94% of humanity is not part of the EU/UK breakup.
In the long term, Brexit is insignificant.
3
The EU is one of the world's largest economies. You can look it up.
One of the major problems with the Eu is that it allows for virtually unlimited immigration into member states. Due to English being the international language, the UK takes the brunt of this. the EU has consistently refused to do anything to place any limits on EU immigration.
6
In a few more days a panic will grip the leadership of all parties of the UK that they should have a revote with a more clear explanation of what the Leave forces will do when the UK leaves the EU. Or if the situation becomes completely dire to repudiate the vote altogether. Otherwise Britain is looking at an historic set of alarming circumstances. David Cameron's astounding confidence that the UKs angry confused electorate could make an intelligent decision in the referendum calls into question his political sanity.
Bye, bye, "Untited "Kingdom.
Scotland, having overwhelmingly voted Stay will sooner rather than later become an independent country, as well as North ireland - having voted the same way - and is having already its feelers out to possibly join with Ireland proper,
London will fairly soon cease to be the banking capital of Europe, while Frankfurt, Germany will get the prize.
At the bitter end, England will be as influential in world affairs as Switzerland, but with less money in their coffers than the Swiss.
Scotland, having overwhelmingly voted Stay will sooner rather than later become an independent country, as well as North ireland - having voted the same way - and is having already its feelers out to possibly join with Ireland proper,
London will fairly soon cease to be the banking capital of Europe, while Frankfurt, Germany will get the prize.
At the bitter end, England will be as influential in world affairs as Switzerland, but with less money in their coffers than the Swiss.
3
Spain has said it will prevent Scotland from gaining independence, since it would inflame the Catalonia and Basque autonomists in Spain.
2
Mr. Johnson and Mr. Trump for President.
3
Too much big hair on our twin Sampsons to fit in the Oval Office simultaneously, and in the armored limousine, too.
2
I wonder how much the Osborne-Cameron austerity response to the 2008 crisis, with large cuts in grants to municipalities, and cut in payments to individuals, contributed to the angst and anger in the slower growing or declining areas of Great Britain. If so, the people in England most hurt by the crisis and the austerity response have latched onto the wrong villains (the EU and immigration), rather than the policies of their own conservative government.
2
The next prime minister should be Boris Johnson. In six months, people won't be able to distinguish Boris' hair and UK's economy.
2
These votes were mostly casted by voters (a) who decided not to go to colleges for whatever reasons, (b) whose job skills are threatened by immigrants, (c) who relied on false data such as monstrous payments sent by British taxpayers to Brussels, (d) who did not realize that Scotland only voted to stay in UK because UK was a part of EU, (f) who don't really like colored people to come to their country and commingle and (g) UK's labors were going to be competitive to other Asian nations' to import goods into the EU market after UK's free free status with EU is revoked.
This referendum was a horrible mistake by Cameron. The problem is that the entire UK is about to pay the ultimate price. UK's power and prestige have always been buoyant by EU- not the other way around.
This referendum was a horrible mistake by Cameron. The problem is that the entire UK is about to pay the ultimate price. UK's power and prestige have always been buoyant by EU- not the other way around.
5
The only good that can come of Brexit is if it is a catalyst to complete the known deficiencies of the EU structure.
In most countries, cyclical economic problems can be addressed through adjustments in FX rates, monetary policy and fiscal policy.
Sufficient adjustment mechanisms do not exist to address member-state and regional economic disparities.
This had been well understood for decades.
The US also has a single currency and monetary policy for all states. But roughly half of government spending occurs at the federal level, and half at the state and local levels.
State and local budgets are autonomous, unlike the EU. They can adapt to different economic issues as a counter-cyclical.
Also, in times of regional, state or local crises, the federal government steps in to address these problems, whether economic or by natural disaster.
When Greece and Spain have 25% unemployment, that is a crisis.
If continental EU spending were financed by Eurobonds backed by the ECB, the cost of sovereign debt financing would be permanently lower.
Presently, the ECB is lifting the heavy load through extraordinary QE measures that attempts to lower all member-state financing costs. That is a stop gap measure.
If the continental EU recognizes their future is stronger together, they will complete the structural integration of their fiscal and banking systems to create a permanent and flexible system that address crises that cause instability, pain and economic underperformance.
In most countries, cyclical economic problems can be addressed through adjustments in FX rates, monetary policy and fiscal policy.
Sufficient adjustment mechanisms do not exist to address member-state and regional economic disparities.
This had been well understood for decades.
The US also has a single currency and monetary policy for all states. But roughly half of government spending occurs at the federal level, and half at the state and local levels.
State and local budgets are autonomous, unlike the EU. They can adapt to different economic issues as a counter-cyclical.
Also, in times of regional, state or local crises, the federal government steps in to address these problems, whether economic or by natural disaster.
When Greece and Spain have 25% unemployment, that is a crisis.
If continental EU spending were financed by Eurobonds backed by the ECB, the cost of sovereign debt financing would be permanently lower.
Presently, the ECB is lifting the heavy load through extraordinary QE measures that attempts to lower all member-state financing costs. That is a stop gap measure.
If the continental EU recognizes their future is stronger together, they will complete the structural integration of their fiscal and banking systems to create a permanent and flexible system that address crises that cause instability, pain and economic underperformance.
3
People who belittle the vote should remember that democratic governments are built on the soil of violent revolution. Is a peaceful revolution really so bad?
6
Only 71.8% of the eligible populace voted. In terms of eligible voters, 37.3% voted to leave, 34.6% voted to stay and 28.2% did not vote. In English Common Law, silence gives consent. The argument could be made that the non-voting populace consents to the status quo: remaining in the EU. It is unreasonable to take the UK out of the EU based on 37.3% of the eligible voters.
3
"Do they really have a right to a "do-over”?"
I don’t see any good reason why not.
The UK does not have a written constitution, so there isn’t a clear rule against it.
(Wouldn’t a well-comsidered rule say that such a hugely consequential action required a “supermajority” of 60% or 2/3, Removal of a US President or Federal judge, upon impeachment, requires 2/3, for example.)
The relevant EU agreement (Treaty of Lisbon, Art. 50) provides for up to two years of negotiations over the terms of departure, and that period doesn’t start until the UK gives notice of intent to depart. PM Cameron says he will not give such notice before October, probably leaving it to his successor as PM.
And the 52-48 vote to leave does seem a pretty soft and muddly mandate, where much of the impetus for departure was based on prevarication and fraud -- the vastly misstated figures for the payments to the EU, the now-admittedly false claim that the supposed savings would fund the popular NHS, the crude manipulation of anti-immigrant sentiment. Many who voted for Brexit only now understand the consequences of that vote, as they did not earlier, when the opponents were weak and incompetent in their opposition the proponents’ lies.
So, there is little reason to hold the original, deeply flawed result sacrosanct.
If there is now a large groundswell for a revote, they should have one, in conjunction with a newly-called parliamentary election or otherwise.
I don’t see any good reason why not.
The UK does not have a written constitution, so there isn’t a clear rule against it.
(Wouldn’t a well-comsidered rule say that such a hugely consequential action required a “supermajority” of 60% or 2/3, Removal of a US President or Federal judge, upon impeachment, requires 2/3, for example.)
The relevant EU agreement (Treaty of Lisbon, Art. 50) provides for up to two years of negotiations over the terms of departure, and that period doesn’t start until the UK gives notice of intent to depart. PM Cameron says he will not give such notice before October, probably leaving it to his successor as PM.
And the 52-48 vote to leave does seem a pretty soft and muddly mandate, where much of the impetus for departure was based on prevarication and fraud -- the vastly misstated figures for the payments to the EU, the now-admittedly false claim that the supposed savings would fund the popular NHS, the crude manipulation of anti-immigrant sentiment. Many who voted for Brexit only now understand the consequences of that vote, as they did not earlier, when the opponents were weak and incompetent in their opposition the proponents’ lies.
So, there is little reason to hold the original, deeply flawed result sacrosanct.
If there is now a large groundswell for a revote, they should have one, in conjunction with a newly-called parliamentary election or otherwise.
6
Do-over is the last refuge of anti-democratic extremists. Few things are known as accurately as we know this: the enemy of the British people is the British establishment. Many here believe that the enemy of the American people is the American establishment. Disagree? Provide evidence.
2
We might get to see what having no "establishment" is like at some point, rjs. We might get to taste that to our hearts' content. It's happened in history at various points, for short periods of time, anyway. And then we can see if that's a panacea or an Eden; so far the jury is, to say the least, out on that.
2
It seems to me the economic and political elite are torn between two courses of action both of which involve cutting your nose to spite your face.
Globalism and neoliberal economics provided a nice quick fix to a world economy that could no longer be grown to sustain the needs of the market and still provide for the needs of the developing economies.
We are now faced with the options of punishing the English and the Welsh for daring to expose our global economy no long provides for the needs of democracy and the psychological needs of people who demand more direct control of their local economies or leaving unpunished those that dare question the wisdom of those that pull the strings and risking other democratic economies deciding they are no longer under orders to worship at the alter of neoliberalism.
It was back in the 1970s that we decided that suddenly economics was the answer to all human needs without regard to the fact that religion, ideology and power and privilege played a more important role in human conflict.
Brexit is the sign that our priorities are misplaced and the time has come to try and understand why people would vote against their best economic interests of their societies and why we would punish those who actually express their democratic priorities.
The third option which involves addressing the vote in a manner that recognizes the concerns; integrating economics with democracy but as we have seen throughout history those with power don't give it up.
Globalism and neoliberal economics provided a nice quick fix to a world economy that could no longer be grown to sustain the needs of the market and still provide for the needs of the developing economies.
We are now faced with the options of punishing the English and the Welsh for daring to expose our global economy no long provides for the needs of democracy and the psychological needs of people who demand more direct control of their local economies or leaving unpunished those that dare question the wisdom of those that pull the strings and risking other democratic economies deciding they are no longer under orders to worship at the alter of neoliberalism.
It was back in the 1970s that we decided that suddenly economics was the answer to all human needs without regard to the fact that religion, ideology and power and privilege played a more important role in human conflict.
Brexit is the sign that our priorities are misplaced and the time has come to try and understand why people would vote against their best economic interests of their societies and why we would punish those who actually express their democratic priorities.
The third option which involves addressing the vote in a manner that recognizes the concerns; integrating economics with democracy but as we have seen throughout history those with power don't give it up.
3
"the time has come to try and understand why people would vote against their best economic interests"
Plain people have no clue and understanding of the complex issues facing democracy. Partly it is the fault of education and partly people's laziness. We are facing increasingly complex threats, economically and socially, which sometimes need to be modeled to be properly understood. Try to explain those to "average Joe". It is way beyond the high school education level. Civics course has to be expanded and include modern societal issues. Otherwise "experts" and honest politicians have no chance to win the argument with demagoguery.
Plain people have no clue and understanding of the complex issues facing democracy. Partly it is the fault of education and partly people's laziness. We are facing increasingly complex threats, economically and socially, which sometimes need to be modeled to be properly understood. Try to explain those to "average Joe". It is way beyond the high school education level. Civics course has to be expanded and include modern societal issues. Otherwise "experts" and honest politicians have no chance to win the argument with demagoguery.
4
It's dismaying to see anti-democratic forces arising in the West. The right shows an increasing appetite for strongmen and authoritarianism (Trump, LePen, a great deal of Eastern Europe), while the left is increasingly comfortable with technocratic edicts handed down by a bureaucracy at the service of the elite (the EU), and rushing to see how the will of the people can be voided if the people don't vote the right way (UK).
We are headed for interesting times indeed.
We are headed for interesting times indeed.
4
Check out Sacramento TV stations' web sites for the carnage yesterday by 400 rampaging "anti-fascists" at the State Capitol, many of them dressed in black and masked, to prevent ID for their assaults. 8 people stabbed. The same Democrat-Anarchist mobs as seen in Burlingame, Santa Ana, San Diego, and San Jose. Rioting to suppress Free Speech, as in Chicago 1968.
2
The WSJ has taken a temperate approach to this development by not seeing it as the end of the world but as an opportunity to reach better trade agreements and to foster better relations with England and other countries. The basic issue is the control a sovereign nation should have over its own destiny. Why should it be given over to faceless bureaucracies who act supranationally employing their own rules and regs? Is that no longer even an issue? The liberal media, however, acting on behalf of the corporations that own them, falsely portray it as a matter of openness vs. a closed view of the world. Since when has the sovereignty of democratic nations become outmoded? Just because Obama would like to see that happen? BTW the WSJ seems open to endorsing Trump, so not everyone is echoing the same drumbeat. So everyone should stop panicking. It is a new day.
6
Can I remind you that the once-vaunted WSJ is owned by none other than Rupert Murdoch?
How much better than the 'Corporate owned' liberal media
How much better than the 'Corporate owned' liberal media
4
"better trade agreements "
Well, another catch phrase on the right, which without specific example, doesn't meant anything.
"The liberal media, however, acting on behalf of the corporations"
Another right wing convulsion equating liberalism with corporations. I wonder on which side is Ryan budget? Is it serving corporations and is fought by liberals, or is it something different that tea party strongly supported last 6 years against their own interests?
Well, another catch phrase on the right, which without specific example, doesn't meant anything.
"The liberal media, however, acting on behalf of the corporations"
Another right wing convulsion equating liberalism with corporations. I wonder on which side is Ryan budget? Is it serving corporations and is fought by liberals, or is it something different that tea party strongly supported last 6 years against their own interests?
3
Ed, your charmingly barmy idea that the right wing is somehow not the utter tool of wealth and corporate power will not take you far in the real world, as delightful as it may seem in fantasy.
4
This is like if in the United States the two nihilist camps join together Bernie and Trump to destroy and burn down what we have.
7
The voters want Boris to be their leader? The man babbles.
8
According to Wikipedia, as of 31 March 2014, the UK has an external debt (the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents) of $9.6T or $146,244 per capita. That equals 569% of GDP! By comparison, the numbers for the US are $19.2T, $60,340 per capita and 114% of GDP. The CIA World Fact Book lists the UK public (government only debt) as 90.6% of GDP (2015 estimate). Assuming a UK nominal GDP of $2.8T, that means private debt totals over $7T ($9.6T – [$2.8T*.906]).
The citizens of UK owe that private debt to domestic and foreign banks and foreign governments. It is probable that most of the private debt is variable rate home mortgage debt. As the UK exits the EU, interest could rates rise, and house prices fall. The results? Uncontrollable defaults on a scale that may ripple across the entire world.
The UK may have just shot themselves, and perhaps the entire world, in the foot. This senseless Brexit vote may have just initiated the next great depression as already weak banks fail with UK defaults. The only hope is that the UK so called “leaders” of the Brexit find the strength to actually lead, overlook the vote, and remain in the EU.
If this analysis is correct, the unintended consequences of the Brexit vote could be rather terrifying!
The citizens of UK owe that private debt to domestic and foreign banks and foreign governments. It is probable that most of the private debt is variable rate home mortgage debt. As the UK exits the EU, interest could rates rise, and house prices fall. The results? Uncontrollable defaults on a scale that may ripple across the entire world.
The UK may have just shot themselves, and perhaps the entire world, in the foot. This senseless Brexit vote may have just initiated the next great depression as already weak banks fail with UK defaults. The only hope is that the UK so called “leaders” of the Brexit find the strength to actually lead, overlook the vote, and remain in the EU.
If this analysis is correct, the unintended consequences of the Brexit vote could be rather terrifying!
2
It may be correct, but it's also 27 months old, and superannuated.
1
As someone who voted Remain I was disheartened with the outcome of the vote, however I don't believe there should be another vote as it'll cause more turmoil. However one thing that should be made clear is that Britain isn't turning its back on Europe it just wants to go along a different path, a slightly more bumpy and unpredictable route that will hopefully support both Europe's and Britain's interests, and who knows this maybe the wake-up call that the whole of the Europe including the UK needs to sort out their problems and make both the UK and EU an open more centralist governments and put an end to the fight right groups that are appearing all over Europe. Only time will tell
5
According to Wikipedia, as of 31 March 2014, the UK has an external debt (the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents) of $9.6T or $146,244 per capita. That equals 569% of GDP! By comparison, the numbers for the US are $19.2T, $60,340 per capita and 114% of GDP. The CIA World Fact Book lists the UK public (government only debt) as 90.6% of GDP (2015 estimate).Assuming a UK nominal GDP of $2.8T, that means private debt totals over $7T ($9.6T – [$2.8T*.906]).
The citizens of UK owe that private debt to domestic and foreign banks and foreign governments. It is probable that most of the private debt is variable rate home mortgage debt. As the UK exits the EU, interest could rates rise, and house prices fall. The results? Uncontrollable defaults on a scale that may ripple across the entire world.
The UK may have just shot themselves, and perhaps the entire world, in the foot. It is possible this senseless Brexit vote has just initiated the next great depression as already weak banks fail with UK defaults. The only hope is that the UK so called “leaders” of the Brexit find the strength to actually lead, overlook the vote, and remain in the EU.
If this analysis is correct, the unintended consequences of the Brexit vote may be rather terrifying!
The citizens of UK owe that private debt to domestic and foreign banks and foreign governments. It is probable that most of the private debt is variable rate home mortgage debt. As the UK exits the EU, interest could rates rise, and house prices fall. The results? Uncontrollable defaults on a scale that may ripple across the entire world.
The UK may have just shot themselves, and perhaps the entire world, in the foot. It is possible this senseless Brexit vote has just initiated the next great depression as already weak banks fail with UK defaults. The only hope is that the UK so called “leaders” of the Brexit find the strength to actually lead, overlook the vote, and remain in the EU.
If this analysis is correct, the unintended consequences of the Brexit vote may be rather terrifying!
3
Britain is not Greece or even Spain. Take a pill or two and call Batman.
2
Apparently, a substantial portion of the British elite are prepared to argue that the result of the referendum is non-binding. The electorate votes but the establishment rules. Just wait until the public gets wise to this. Right now, stop using your fan. New message from Britain to Brussels: Just kidding!
3
I spoke with some friends over in Britain before the Brexit vote and the ones that wanted to leave didn't seem to care about the economic ramifications. It was more about nationalism and not letting Brussels dictate immigration and trade polices. Some of my friends are rethinking their vote now but there isn't a clause for a do-over.
5
I hear a refrain throughout the comments: "the promises that were made were lies"...hmmm, aren't false promises the currency of all political campaigns & elections? When was the last time a candidate made good on promises?
Think hard now, my fellow Americans. Yet, some many commenters have
selected the Brexits voters as having been fooled; just think how long the American citizen has been fooled with promises of jobs, freedom, etc.
Think hard now, my fellow Americans. Yet, some many commenters have
selected the Brexits voters as having been fooled; just think how long the American citizen has been fooled with promises of jobs, freedom, etc.
10
More proof that the public's greatest enemy is the public.
2
Cameron did not think through the implications of the referendum before he called for the vote. He should have articulated what could be a achieved, how and why it was necessary. Because he didn't do this, the referendum was a shot in the dark. Sorry Brits, we had George Bush, now you have David Cameron. The cost of bad leadership is high.
5
It amazes me the hysteria this has whipped up in the US which is largely ignorant of the facts. It appears Brexit has triggered the collapse of Western Civilization and Nazi parties are about to take Europe by storm. Have you ever heard one person say “The one thing I like about the EU is the thousands of smug, overpaid mandarins issuing fatuous directives.” Then you have the appalling unelected president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, making it clear if any country that elects a right-of-centre populist government, will be stripped of its rights to make decisions within the EU, and possibly subjected to a loss of income.
But across the continent including Britain a whole tranche of people are left either disenfranchised or tilted towards right-wing populist parties that do worry about both immigration and extremist Islam. Angela Merkel heading up the largest member of the EU made a unpopular, unsustainable and patently insane conviction that Europe should open its doors to a vast influx of people who do not share their aspirations or culture, among which may be a small number of maniacs trying to sneak in to blow people up.
It is by far and away the most persuasive argument for any state to leave the EU that seeks ever to expand its remit; to exert, in the end, total control. It has become a tyranny, intolerant of any dissenting voices, contemptuous towards the wishes of the people. Why, given this, should people have voted remain?
But across the continent including Britain a whole tranche of people are left either disenfranchised or tilted towards right-wing populist parties that do worry about both immigration and extremist Islam. Angela Merkel heading up the largest member of the EU made a unpopular, unsustainable and patently insane conviction that Europe should open its doors to a vast influx of people who do not share their aspirations or culture, among which may be a small number of maniacs trying to sneak in to blow people up.
It is by far and away the most persuasive argument for any state to leave the EU that seeks ever to expand its remit; to exert, in the end, total control. It has become a tyranny, intolerant of any dissenting voices, contemptuous towards the wishes of the people. Why, given this, should people have voted remain?
6
When it comes to democratic election results “ the will of the people” should in theory be honored. This is the sacred basis of a democratic system. However, the conundrum is what if the “will” exercised by a democratic populace is based on fear, xenophobia, misinformation, and ignorance. Democracies only work too put it bluntly, if the majority of the voters aren’t stupid. The parallels between Brexit and Trump’s ascendency to presumptive Republican presidential nominee are striking and frightening. Imagine the chaos that would be unleashed were Trump to actually win the general election. The maelstrom in the aftermath of Brexit will seem like a gentle spring shower in comparison. It is only a small consolation that stupidity isn’t restricted to Americans.
5
"what if the “will” exercised by a democratic populace is based on fear, xenophobia, misinformation, and ignorance"
the question is, who gets to decide that?
the question is, who gets to decide that?
2
Leaving EU is going to cause some suffering...maybe...but things might turn better. It's uncertain.
Staying in the EU will guaranteed only make things worse for Britain.
So between dying with a 99% chance and dying with a 95% chance, I guess Brexit offers more hope of improvement than staying in EU, where problems won't be fixed or addressed, there will be continued lack of unity; especially now Britain is that odd country in the EU now after wanting to leave. A marriage's dynamics changes when one threatens divorce.
I'd say just go for it and leave, nothing much worse can happen really. They know staying won't improve things. It's also interesting the ones who want to remain are those with less immigration or refugees up north.
Staying in the EU will guaranteed only make things worse for Britain.
So between dying with a 99% chance and dying with a 95% chance, I guess Brexit offers more hope of improvement than staying in EU, where problems won't be fixed or addressed, there will be continued lack of unity; especially now Britain is that odd country in the EU now after wanting to leave. A marriage's dynamics changes when one threatens divorce.
I'd say just go for it and leave, nothing much worse can happen really. They know staying won't improve things. It's also interesting the ones who want to remain are those with less immigration or refugees up north.
6
Perhaps one unintended consequence of the brexit vote is that it tells everyone what the consequences are of an ill-informed, emotional, knee-jerk vote.
10
Actually, let England and Wales vote to leave the UK, and take their monarch with them! Then let Ulster vote to leave the UK and join with Ireland, but with Spanish-style home rule. That leaves Scotland as the "rump UK" [then change the name, of course] and still an EU member; it leaves Ulster as part of an EU member, and it leaves England and Wales out of the EU, which is what they wanted. Problems solved! If an EU member country can add territory and have the result still be an EU member [see Germany], then a EU member country should also be able to subtract territory [twice] and still be an EU member.
1
To subtract territory just had happened in Denmark: Greenland gained an autonomy status after Denmark entered EC. To reduce fishing in the territroy of Greenland, Greenland did leave the EC (but not Denmark). Currently the mood in Greenland seems to be to enter the EU (as autonomous part of Denmark).
I like your idea and had a similar but different one: A British party (Labour?) is advertising with the words: Vote for us! Our next PM will perform a referendum with the question:
Shall Transnistria become part of the UK?
A completly different solution for the same problem :-)
I like your idea and had a similar but different one: A British party (Labour?) is advertising with the words: Vote for us! Our next PM will perform a referendum with the question:
Shall Transnistria become part of the UK?
A completly different solution for the same problem :-)
In essence, this was a vote against unfettered Muslim immigration into Britain, and a vote against having Germany dictate what the UK is to do.
Isn't that why Britain fought WW2, so that they wouldn't have to succumb Germany's will?
Isn't that why Britain fought WW2, so that they wouldn't have to succumb Germany's will?
8
this is th 3rd time germany has tried to conquer england
and lost
and lost
5
Nonsense. The vote was about the fact that citizens of the EU could move unfettered, between countries. Had nothing to do with Muslims. The biggest threat that we face, as a democracy, is the uninformed voter.
8
Leaving the EU doesn't affect Moslem immigration to the UK at all.
1
Disregard what the so called experts and educated masses with their advanced degrees will tell you,these are the people who crashed the economy with their MBA mentality, they brought you the wars of freedom and democracy with their degrees in international relations. You can get better info from the janitor in a building.
5
These are the clichés that will wreck Britain. The out-of-touch intellectual in his ivory tower, the marginally educated janitor (plumber?) with common-sense solutions, the evil terrorist making travel plans for Britain....yes, fear has won a great victory!
I am fascinated to watching this all play out. It is clear that the people want some say in the the way the country is run. All this is being exacerbated by news coverage that is not fact based and seems to follow the story of "Chicken Little" I mistakenly thought it was illegal to yell fire in a movie theater but the news media is screaming it with no blow back at all. Democracy as we expect it is about to change. The simple fact the EU did not step in and negotiate a new deal with the dissatisfied Brits upfront seems to confirm their arrogance and need to have it there way at any cost.
In this world there are dynamics that call for charters such as this to be somewhat elastic. I personally believe that the sticky point to all of this is the open borders and a lack of will to vet the flow of immigrants. The public wants assurances that those coming in want to to join their country --not change or pillage it.
In this world there are dynamics that call for charters such as this to be somewhat elastic. I personally believe that the sticky point to all of this is the open borders and a lack of will to vet the flow of immigrants. The public wants assurances that those coming in want to to join their country --not change or pillage it.
3
If Britain brings home bureaucracy it has now outsourced to brussels, it should cost more to the tax payer. And it will need to adhere to many of the E.U. stipulations if it wants to access E.U. market.
2
Everyone is acting more hysterical than two year olds at a birthday party, or is it just the media? Calm down and carry on!!!!
6
Did you happen to notice that the stock market is crashing worldwide, NJ Commuter? It is average people who have their savings in the "market" that will lose as traitors like DT make money. You calm down.
5
Njglea, markets are crashing, really?
I hadn't noticed...
I hadn't noticed...
3
njglea -- my comment was not directed to you or made in response to your comment. I had not even read your comment!! Comments are posted about 20 minutes after they are submitted. There is no reason for you to be hysterical about my nonpolitical comment -- as it was not directed to you. Nor was my comment political in nature, nor should ever comment be interpreted as politically motivated. Maybe you are not familiar with the phrase Keep Calm and Carry On, a motivational phrase used by Britain preparing for the Second World War.
My nonpolitical suggestion to calm down is precisely to protect the "average people" as you describe them. As most of us are just that --ordinary folks-- who cannot control the world markets.
My nonpolitical suggestion to calm down is precisely to protect the "average people" as you describe them. As most of us are just that --ordinary folks-- who cannot control the world markets.
1
I just watched the joint campaign appearance by Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Senator Elizabeth Warren in Ohio. We Americans are so lucky that we have a strong, courageous, independent, experienced woman to lead America through the international chaos in the years to come. WE must elect socially conscious women to one-half the positions of power to create balance in America.
Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton has my vote!
Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton has my vote!
5
And this is related to th British EU vote how exactly?
3
I think she is drawing a parallel between the "leave" forces and the option of Donald Trump in the US.
2
Given the immediate opening of a combo "Whoops, changed my mind about the 350 mil!" a, "well, I didn't really MEAN we should leave right away!" And of course, "Hey, we're still part of Europe. Really. Trust me," clown show, it's my advice that Farange immediately get in touch with Sam Brownback.
After all, the governor's a genius at facing realities he's been told about in advance, saying, "Nope," and getting away with it.
And it has a nice ring: the United Kingdom of Kansas.
After all, the governor's a genius at facing realities he's been told about in advance, saying, "Nope," and getting away with it.
And it has a nice ring: the United Kingdom of Kansas.
2
A couple of questions here:
1) According to Article 50, Brexit doesn't start until that letter is drafted by the UK and sent to the EU.
2) Cameron has resigned.
3) Who will sign and send that letter to the EU now? And when?
4) What if the new PM doesn't sign/send that letter?
As a "business process", this has more opportunities for glitches than the GOP national convention.... It's not at all clear to me that this overall process will work like anyone has envisioned.... Thoughts?
1) According to Article 50, Brexit doesn't start until that letter is drafted by the UK and sent to the EU.
2) Cameron has resigned.
3) Who will sign and send that letter to the EU now? And when?
4) What if the new PM doesn't sign/send that letter?
As a "business process", this has more opportunities for glitches than the GOP national convention.... It's not at all clear to me that this overall process will work like anyone has envisioned.... Thoughts?
3
As I tell my high school students all the time: Leadership can be positive or negative. A positive leader unites, reconciles, listens, acts as an example. Negative leadership threatens, divides in order to receive more attention and power and encourages making decisions not based in reason, logic and judiciousness, but rather on fleeting emtions. Following one's heart is not always a great way to make momentous decisions. Case in point: Brexit.
1
I am a dual US-EU national and have lived and worked in the UK for some 10 years. I was a fervent Remain supporter.
It has been rather disconcerting reading the reactions of some Americans to Brexit, particularly the oft used phrase "they got their country back", and dismissing the worries around racism and xenophobia in the campaign. In the short time since the referendum, there has been a shocking display of hateful racism across the UK. (And I'm surprised the NYTimes hasn't reported on it.) This includes vandalism of a Polish community center (near my own home), letters left at a primary school saying "Polish vermin", and members of the British south Asian community being told to "pack your bags."
Because the more you repeat "we got our country back", the more you believe someone actually took it from you. (That would actually be the Tories...) The hysterical reaction to immigration has become acceptable here. This is the first time I have ever felt genuinely unwelcome and even somewhat unsafe.
And this is what I fear will happen in the US with Trump. I was a Sanders supporter - I'm not keen on HRC and don't feel she'll change much. But seeing the fall out here in the UK, the aggressive xenophobia, I'm skeptical of a Trump America. Admitting there is a problem with illegal immigration is not the same thing as saying all Mexicans are rapists: one is constructive and one achieves, well, nothing. "Getting your country back" will not solve the failures of the government.
It has been rather disconcerting reading the reactions of some Americans to Brexit, particularly the oft used phrase "they got their country back", and dismissing the worries around racism and xenophobia in the campaign. In the short time since the referendum, there has been a shocking display of hateful racism across the UK. (And I'm surprised the NYTimes hasn't reported on it.) This includes vandalism of a Polish community center (near my own home), letters left at a primary school saying "Polish vermin", and members of the British south Asian community being told to "pack your bags."
Because the more you repeat "we got our country back", the more you believe someone actually took it from you. (That would actually be the Tories...) The hysterical reaction to immigration has become acceptable here. This is the first time I have ever felt genuinely unwelcome and even somewhat unsafe.
And this is what I fear will happen in the US with Trump. I was a Sanders supporter - I'm not keen on HRC and don't feel she'll change much. But seeing the fall out here in the UK, the aggressive xenophobia, I'm skeptical of a Trump America. Admitting there is a problem with illegal immigration is not the same thing as saying all Mexicans are rapists: one is constructive and one achieves, well, nothing. "Getting your country back" will not solve the failures of the government.
5
Whatever else, David Cameron can always get a job in academia; and Jeremy Corbyn can replace Ismail Haniyeh in Hamas.
1
The Times is determined to present "Brexit" as a catastrophe. It is not. Free trade will continue to grow and after all their huffing and puffing the Germans - who dictate what the EU does will use the two-year negotiation period for the exit to craft trade arrangements with the UK that look a lot like those in place for inter-member trade. That sort of open trade arrangement makes sense from everyone's perspective and, as the Russian invasion of the Ukraine demonstrated, at the end of the day German politicians seem satisfied to make strong statements and then fall back to their economic best interests. With regard to security, NATO is the security alliance and the UK has always had differences with other EU partners in this regard - best evidenced by the fact that they joined with the US in Iraq when the rest of Europe equivocated.
Once trade and security agreements are removed from the equation then the UK's membership in the EU is not much of an issue, and that fact will become salient once the TImes and the European media stop with the incendiary headlines.
The EU had become Germany's tool - from lending money to the PIGS for them to spend on German goods, enforcing austerity policies that reflect nothing so much as they do German cultural and historic biases against inflation, forcing all to take refugees in proportions that serve Germany's interests, or creating agricultural polices that reflect Germany's interests. Let the EU be weakened - that's a good thing!
Once trade and security agreements are removed from the equation then the UK's membership in the EU is not much of an issue, and that fact will become salient once the TImes and the European media stop with the incendiary headlines.
The EU had become Germany's tool - from lending money to the PIGS for them to spend on German goods, enforcing austerity policies that reflect nothing so much as they do German cultural and historic biases against inflation, forcing all to take refugees in proportions that serve Germany's interests, or creating agricultural polices that reflect Germany's interests. Let the EU be weakened - that's a good thing!
4
Amazing reading all these posts about how something this important should not be decided by a small majority of the people. If Hillary Clinton defeats Donald Trump by a 51% to 49% margin will you demand a new election to be called in two or three months? It's called democracy and sometimes people win a small majority but they won and their votes count and the results should not be diminished by the pundits.
There was no nuclear war that took the lives of all 65 million Brits. England has not fallen into the sea. It has a hardworking, creative, inventive, and resilient people. It survived the bombing of its cities, towns, and villages by the Nazi's and it will survive this and come back roaring and the British people will thrive and prosper.
Maybe, just maybe, the British people did not feel that control over their borders, their economy, their foreign policy, and the way they educate their children, feed the public, and live their lives should be run by nameless, faceless bureaucrats in Belgium that none of the British people voted for.
There was no nuclear war that took the lives of all 65 million Brits. England has not fallen into the sea. It has a hardworking, creative, inventive, and resilient people. It survived the bombing of its cities, towns, and villages by the Nazi's and it will survive this and come back roaring and the British people will thrive and prosper.
Maybe, just maybe, the British people did not feel that control over their borders, their economy, their foreign policy, and the way they educate their children, feed the public, and live their lives should be run by nameless, faceless bureaucrats in Belgium that none of the British people voted for.
2
You folks that keep flogging the Brits who voted to leave as "stupid voters" are on a pretty slippery slope.
Stupid voters predominate in the US, too.
Many uneducated, uninformed and ignorant vote based on a sheet of paper they are given, usually at a church. They even try to register on the day of the election ... does that show any element of "not stupid." They have no idea what or who they are voting for, they just do as they are told. Talk about stupid!
Stupid voters predominate in the US, too.
Many uneducated, uninformed and ignorant vote based on a sheet of paper they are given, usually at a church. They even try to register on the day of the election ... does that show any element of "not stupid." They have no idea what or who they are voting for, they just do as they are told. Talk about stupid!
4
Here come the small-minded fear-mongers suggesting Britain made a mistake. The truth is that they did not. They are ahead of the curve. The global reality has changed--it actually changed a while ago, but most folks didn't notice. Our world has been shaped by colonialism for the past 500 years. Colonialism created the first global economy. What makes Britain powerful compared to Greece? Colonies. It is the only reason Britain was rich. Those colonies are gone now--never coming back--and it is wise to return to a sustainable way of life. I don't see why we have to prolong the inevitable--unless it is to make sure we restore a Hapsburgian type of order in Europe.
Why did Europe always go to war? Colonial wealth. Nothing more. The so-called wars of religion, were a realignment away from Rome that had split the world between Spain and Portugal. There was very little war in Europe before colonies, unless you count fighting off Mongols and Moors. There is no reason for Europe to start going to war again. Will Russia take over? Not likely. Oil price will drop and it will struggle to make do. With smaller budgets and an end to imperialism, it may not even make sense to maintain nuclear arsenals. However, radical Islam may become expansionist, as in the past, so there will always be something to keep us busy.
Why did Europe always go to war? Colonial wealth. Nothing more. The so-called wars of religion, were a realignment away from Rome that had split the world between Spain and Portugal. There was very little war in Europe before colonies, unless you count fighting off Mongols and Moors. There is no reason for Europe to start going to war again. Will Russia take over? Not likely. Oil price will drop and it will struggle to make do. With smaller budgets and an end to imperialism, it may not even make sense to maintain nuclear arsenals. However, radical Islam may become expansionist, as in the past, so there will always be something to keep us busy.
4
British PM David Cameron has done more than enough to be remembered in History as the irresponsible prime minister who, in order to win control of his own party, put his own country and the rest of Europe in dire straits. Referendums on European matters will be prone to demagogic influx, such as the one of former London mayor Boris Johnson, until the European electorate is properly educated in European matters, a thing that no European government has yet done. In the meantime, people will vote according to issues that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.
Brexit is properly a mind blowing event since it goes against more than 300 years of Britain's European policy, sustained by both Parties, and whose main premise was British involvement in Europe in order to avoid the emergence of an European dominant power.
Britain could now decide to became a member to the European Economic Space, like Norway and Switzerland, in order to maintain its crucial free entry into the European Union market. But in order to win this status, it must to accept not only free movement of goods and capitals but also of people and pay its financial part into the budget of the European Union without having a say in its decisions, something that will relegate Britain to a second tier nation in Europe and run against the popular vote on Brexit.
Brexit is properly a mind blowing event since it goes against more than 300 years of Britain's European policy, sustained by both Parties, and whose main premise was British involvement in Europe in order to avoid the emergence of an European dominant power.
Britain could now decide to became a member to the European Economic Space, like Norway and Switzerland, in order to maintain its crucial free entry into the European Union market. But in order to win this status, it must to accept not only free movement of goods and capitals but also of people and pay its financial part into the budget of the European Union without having a say in its decisions, something that will relegate Britain to a second tier nation in Europe and run against the popular vote on Brexit.
1
Barack needs to make another speech scolding the british for this vote! he is not happy---neither are hillary and bill.
4
Please, the man's name is "Barry." Please type the talking points exactly as they read on the fax.
3
Markets? A chain reaction is setting off poorly-anticipated possible Brexit outcomes. Is this equivalent to a trade war? Has a trade war ever revved up the war machines in Europe? The butt hurt Big Ben baby boomers in Britain just put the bomp in the bompty bompty bomp. I'd bail here.
1
Gary Busey is working the phones pretty hard, wants to be Boris Johnson this week on Saturday Night Live.
4
I see Boris and Donald have the same hair thing going on.
Jeez, look out world, here they come.
Jeez, look out world, here they come.
4
UK's economy is only slightly larger than California's, so big deal.
The volatility its leaving is causing, is actually dissuading other countries from doing the same.
We'll all return to norm soon.
The volatility its leaving is causing, is actually dissuading other countries from doing the same.
We'll all return to norm soon.
2
Labor Party eader Jeremy Corbyn has been a disaster for Britain. He did little this year to get the Labor voting Midlands to vote Stay in the EU. He has been in government for 40 years and talks about a 'new' politics. As Sanders supporters here wanted in every state, in Britain anyone can vote for the Labor Party leader they want, and Corbyn attracted 'young social media connected voters new to the process'. The problem was Corbyn was a pie in the sky type. He had voted against EU membership in 1975. He was a Euroskeptic not because the EU was too liberal, but because it was not liberal enough. He wanted more immigrants, less military spending, called Hamas 'friends', wanted a boycott on Israel, was against drone strikes like the one on Jihadi John, and even came out against London police using lethal force to stop armed terrorists on the streets. Many in the Labor Party are now trying to get him to resign as he is not a leader for a great nation.
2
“… a public that knows little about the European Union.”
“Andrew Moravcsik, a professor of politics at Princeton University… suggested Britain would do what other European Union members have done after negative referendums: “It would negotiate a new agreement, nearly identical to the old one, disguise it in opaque language and ratify it,” with the agreement of a public that knows little about the European Union.”
Noam Chomsky in an interview 2003
“… A liberal Wilsonian, Harold Lasswell, in 1933 wrote an article called “Propaganda” in the Encyclopedia of Social Sciences, a major publication, in which the message was, “We should not succumb to democratic dogmatisms about men being the best judges of their own interests.” They’re not, we are. And since people are too stupid and ignorant to understand their best interests, for their own benefit—because we’re great humanitarians—we must marginalize and control them. The best means is propaganda. There is nothing negative about propaganda, he said. It’s as neutral as a pump handle. You can use it for good or for evil. And since we’re noble, wonderful people, we’ll use it for good, to ensure that the stupid, ignorant masses remain marginalized and separated from any decision-making capacity.”
https://chomsky.info/200307__/
“Andrew Moravcsik, a professor of politics at Princeton University… suggested Britain would do what other European Union members have done after negative referendums: “It would negotiate a new agreement, nearly identical to the old one, disguise it in opaque language and ratify it,” with the agreement of a public that knows little about the European Union.”
Noam Chomsky in an interview 2003
“… A liberal Wilsonian, Harold Lasswell, in 1933 wrote an article called “Propaganda” in the Encyclopedia of Social Sciences, a major publication, in which the message was, “We should not succumb to democratic dogmatisms about men being the best judges of their own interests.” They’re not, we are. And since people are too stupid and ignorant to understand their best interests, for their own benefit—because we’re great humanitarians—we must marginalize and control them. The best means is propaganda. There is nothing negative about propaganda, he said. It’s as neutral as a pump handle. You can use it for good or for evil. And since we’re noble, wonderful people, we’ll use it for good, to ensure that the stupid, ignorant masses remain marginalized and separated from any decision-making capacity.”
https://chomsky.info/200307__/
1
worked very well for Stalin et al for many
decades
decades
One stupid man put a loaded gun on a table. His school chum encouraged Britain to play Russian roulette with the gun after Britain had with reasonable success ignored the rather unsavoury gambler who had been encouraging same for some time. The Oik and the school chum assured Britain the gun wasn't loaded. And, of course, Britain fond the chambered round.
This wasn't a vote for freedom and autonomy. Britain was already free and autonomous and had as much sovereignty as she will have after Brexit. This was a vote for isolation and against prosperity, born of vague anger and a sense of impotence. The irony is that it will not harm those who were its targets, it will harm those who voted - on both sides.
One thing I think we can guarantee: America will do nothing to help the UK or whatever is left of the UK when this all settles down. The special relationship only exists for America's benefit and when America wants it to. That was another cheque written by Boris with no money on account. The stupidest thing of all is that Boris, old school chum and Union debating adversary that he is, doesn't even believe in Brexit. He made clear when he sided with the Leave campaign that his goal was to secure a better deal with Brussels. He should have remembered to ask Brussels if they would be willing to negotiate.
This wasn't a vote for freedom and autonomy. Britain was already free and autonomous and had as much sovereignty as she will have after Brexit. This was a vote for isolation and against prosperity, born of vague anger and a sense of impotence. The irony is that it will not harm those who were its targets, it will harm those who voted - on both sides.
One thing I think we can guarantee: America will do nothing to help the UK or whatever is left of the UK when this all settles down. The special relationship only exists for America's benefit and when America wants it to. That was another cheque written by Boris with no money on account. The stupidest thing of all is that Boris, old school chum and Union debating adversary that he is, doesn't even believe in Brexit. He made clear when he sided with the Leave campaign that his goal was to secure a better deal with Brussels. He should have remembered to ask Brussels if they would be willing to negotiate.
4
I hear you. if Britain gets a better deal, France and Italy will want one too. and Spain, having border problems with north Africa. more likely is as the article says they will try to con the voters into thinking they secured something huge when it isn't. Boris was after political power, he may get it.
You'd think the Brits had declared war on the EU, re-instituted the Test Act (Protestants only, please), built a mile high wall around their country and allied themselves with N. Korea based on the way people are carrying on. Obviously, the UK is still an ally and trade partners with the EU and us.
I didn't have an opinion until I saw the reaction to the vote, but now I say - run!
If a friend told me she was staying with an over-controlling husband who made her unhappy because she might struggle for a few years or if the Ukraine said it was going to spare itself insecurity and submit to Russia - I'd say be free and probably something about self-determination. So would most of you? Do the examples of Norway and Switzerland not really exist for those opposed? And have the media, market analysts and economists shown any great predictive powers? No.
And yes, it was largely over immigration and sovereignty for those voting to leave. Why is that so bad? Why is it racism to want to secure your values or your job?
There is a possibility this will not stick given the forces against an independent Britain internally and externally, or last very long, as older people will die and younger people less attracted to being "British," and more attracted to social democracy, will vote union. Or maybe, given time, Britain or the EU will change. Who can say? The future is a funny place. It never looks like what you thought it would when you get there.
I didn't have an opinion until I saw the reaction to the vote, but now I say - run!
If a friend told me she was staying with an over-controlling husband who made her unhappy because she might struggle for a few years or if the Ukraine said it was going to spare itself insecurity and submit to Russia - I'd say be free and probably something about self-determination. So would most of you? Do the examples of Norway and Switzerland not really exist for those opposed? And have the media, market analysts and economists shown any great predictive powers? No.
And yes, it was largely over immigration and sovereignty for those voting to leave. Why is that so bad? Why is it racism to want to secure your values or your job?
There is a possibility this will not stick given the forces against an independent Britain internally and externally, or last very long, as older people will die and younger people less attracted to being "British," and more attracted to social democracy, will vote union. Or maybe, given time, Britain or the EU will change. Who can say? The future is a funny place. It never looks like what you thought it would when you get there.
4
Isn't it funny how the some Democratic leaders are trying deny or retry the results of the Brexit referendum. These same leaders also turn a blind eye to several Middle Eastern undemocratic countries like Jordan since they are considered allies. Looks like Hillary is not happy with the results either.
5
I can't be the only Yank watching this potential train wreck in vague astonishment that for once it's someone election that's causing havoc. Do they really have a right to a "do-over"?
2
One Planet, United
or
Confederated World Front
Independence:keyword
or
Confederated World Front
Independence:keyword
American commentary is entirely invested in the arguments and world-view of the Remain side.
The plunge in the value of the Pound has some very positive aspects for Britain. It should lead to a surge of export income, and of jobs to earn that.
In other situations, these same experts repeatedly say that of a falling currency, and prescribe a weaker currency to cure these ills. They've said that Greece and Italy are crippled in part by their inability to do this, due to their using the Euro.
Where this article sees disaster, one can also see the hand of the market reviving Britain's economy. There is some truth in both views, it is a mixed blessing, but this article does not see half of it.
It is the same with security arguments. Britain is still in NATO, and Britain has always agreed with America on the centrality of NATO in security rather than the EU in that role. Thus for example, the idea of EU armed forces never made headway against NATO alliance of sovereign forces.
In many ways, Britain was America's way to be in the EU, to have a voice in its councils. That seems to play an oversize role in the American reactions to this.
The plunge in the value of the Pound has some very positive aspects for Britain. It should lead to a surge of export income, and of jobs to earn that.
In other situations, these same experts repeatedly say that of a falling currency, and prescribe a weaker currency to cure these ills. They've said that Greece and Italy are crippled in part by their inability to do this, due to their using the Euro.
Where this article sees disaster, one can also see the hand of the market reviving Britain's economy. There is some truth in both views, it is a mixed blessing, but this article does not see half of it.
It is the same with security arguments. Britain is still in NATO, and Britain has always agreed with America on the centrality of NATO in security rather than the EU in that role. Thus for example, the idea of EU armed forces never made headway against NATO alliance of sovereign forces.
In many ways, Britain was America's way to be in the EU, to have a voice in its councils. That seems to play an oversize role in the American reactions to this.
7
@Mark Thomason
An astute comment...
An astute comment...
1
th entire media are nothing more than crisis mongers
wheres th crisis ?
only in your headlines
now continue writing fiction
its amusing, anyway
wheres th crisis ?
only in your headlines
now continue writing fiction
its amusing, anyway
6
It was a vote of total ignorance. Believe side did nothing but lie about the results. Now the truth has come out it's going to cost billion of pounds with no benefits attached. An exodus brainpower and isolation.
1
hey americans
youre leaving england 2 centuries ago was a big mistake
how about a referendum to rejoin ?
youre leaving england 2 centuries ago was a big mistake
how about a referendum to rejoin ?
5
@1420.405751786 MHz
Not a bad idea...
Not a bad idea...
1
Let this be a lesson to all nihilists: if all you have is a plan to burn everything down, that is all you will get.
4
Andy Borowitz treats the subject with some humor:
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-cla...
"Across the United Kingdom on Friday, Britons mourned their long-cherished right to claim that Americans were significantly dumber than they are.
"Luxuriating in the superiority of their intellect over Americans’ has long been a favorite pastime in Britain, surpassing in popularity such games as cricket, darts, and snooker.
But, according to Alistair Dorrinson, a pub owner in North London, British voters have done irreparable damage to the “most enjoyable sport this nation has ever known: namely, treating Americans like idiots.”
“When our countrymen cast their votes yesterday, they didn’t realize they were destroying the most precious leisure activity this nation has ever known,” he said. “Wankers.”
"In the face of this startling display of national idiocy, Dorrinson still mustered some of the resilience for which the British people are known. “This is a dark day,” he said. “But I hold out hope that, come November, Americans could become dumber than us once more.”"
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-cla...
"Across the United Kingdom on Friday, Britons mourned their long-cherished right to claim that Americans were significantly dumber than they are.
"Luxuriating in the superiority of their intellect over Americans’ has long been a favorite pastime in Britain, surpassing in popularity such games as cricket, darts, and snooker.
But, according to Alistair Dorrinson, a pub owner in North London, British voters have done irreparable damage to the “most enjoyable sport this nation has ever known: namely, treating Americans like idiots.”
“When our countrymen cast their votes yesterday, they didn’t realize they were destroying the most precious leisure activity this nation has ever known,” he said. “Wankers.”
"In the face of this startling display of national idiocy, Dorrinson still mustered some of the resilience for which the British people are known. “This is a dark day,” he said. “But I hold out hope that, come November, Americans could become dumber than us once more.”"
6
Leaving votes like this to the public is a sad abdication of the responsabilities that members of parliament (should) have.
Boris will be presiding over the breakup of the United Kingdom. Britain needs the EU more than the EU needs Britain which will be painfully clear the next years to come with severe effects for the country.
Boris will be presiding over the breakup of the United Kingdom. Britain needs the EU more than the EU needs Britain which will be painfully clear the next years to come with severe effects for the country.
3
I trust a bus driver over any member of Parliament.
1
Makes sense, DC, until the bus driver's really the boss.
1
This was a referendum built on a stack of lies told by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. There should be an investigation into how much money Farage made on the day the markets tanked in the UK and Europe. This is the greatest hoax cast over the British citizens, Johnson and Farage used fear and a lie over the EU funds. as Johnson states " Project Fear " is over...Tragic for the citizens of the Uk, especially the 18 - 35 year olds who look for a united future.
2
I admire the behavior of Cameron in accepting a vote outcome that he very much opposes and his embrace of a conscience effort to implement it (note especially his address to Parliament this morning just minutes ago as I write).
Contrast Cameron's behavior with that of president Obama when Congress won't vote the way he wants. Obama flouts Congressional determinations and makes decrees to do the opposite.
Contrast Cameron's behavior with that of president Obama when Congress won't vote the way he wants. Obama flouts Congressional determinations and makes decrees to do the opposite.
3
Ah yes, blame/insult/misrepresent Obama; that'll fix things.
Despite his white skin and posh accent and education, Cameron can't hold a candle to Obama, whose grace, elegance, humor, intelligence and balance will be sorely missed.
Despite his white skin and posh accent and education, Cameron can't hold a candle to Obama, whose grace, elegance, humor, intelligence and balance will be sorely missed.
14
Cameron and Corbyn, et al., did a bad job making the consequence of leaving the EU clear. They didn't explain how many treaties tied them to the EU, they didn't make the financial effects sufficiently understandable or vivid. Their failure to communicate with the English and Welsh public (the Scots and Northern Irish seemed to understand) is reflected in the Google statistic: the most sought question online in the UK was: what is the EU.
Now "Bregret," and Boris Johnson foolishly telling the British people that they're still part of Europe. Not in any meaningful sense: the Brits are on their own, or perhaps the English and Welsh are on their own. I was against the Scots leaving, but I'm not now. I've always thought Northern Ireland should become part of Ireland as a whole.
Now "Bregret," and Boris Johnson foolishly telling the British people that they're still part of Europe. Not in any meaningful sense: the Brits are on their own, or perhaps the English and Welsh are on their own. I was against the Scots leaving, but I'm not now. I've always thought Northern Ireland should become part of Ireland as a whole.
2
It seems a race to the bottom as to whether the UK or the EU will disintegrate first. The leadership change in Britain will soon be followed by others in France and Germany. By the time the Brits muddle through the decision somehow to rejoin the EU it may have dissolved by then. There is no going back. Europe now must decide what a new and did decent EU will look like. The EU is dead... Long live the EU.
2
Brexit? Bridiots. Hardly a surprising result, coming from an electorate that thought "Boaty McBoatface" was something worthy of voting for. Given that the U.S. is a bastard and/or delinquent child of England, at least this perspective helps me understand the anomaly that is Trump.
3
"...leaving open at least the possibility that Britain could negotiate new terms of membership with Brussels and hold another referendum."
No! My Veto!
The EU does not need further cherry-picking of MS UK. This is the problem, not the solution.
It just has been negotiated by Cameron that UK is no longer part of the "ever closer Union". The new result shall be: UK is part of the "ever loser Union"?
If it is really true that British people do not like to have my Polish compatriots (I'm by nation German) in England and Wales: Out of this Union!!! Soon!!! Why you ever entered?
No! My Veto!
The EU does not need further cherry-picking of MS UK. This is the problem, not the solution.
It just has been negotiated by Cameron that UK is no longer part of the "ever closer Union". The new result shall be: UK is part of the "ever loser Union"?
If it is really true that British people do not like to have my Polish compatriots (I'm by nation German) in England and Wales: Out of this Union!!! Soon!!! Why you ever entered?
1
Let's throw out the referendum vote of the people, a Step Forward For Democracy, according to the NYT?????
5
Meanwhile, Wimbledon and Glastonbury go on, the government has set up an office within the (excellent) civil service to assess the consequences of Brexit and determine a way forward, the UK Treasury has reminded anyone who will listen that Britain has had the strongest economy in the G7 for several years now, and hyperbole reigns (as usual) in the British press. There are huge consequences to Brexit, of course, and I wish the vote had gone the other way, but some of the stories in the normally sober NYT and many of the comments here border on hysteria.
1
Boris is such a divorce expert!
1
The hand wringing by the losers is normal. The elites lost, now want a do over. England will be better off in the long run. Propping up EU members that won't act responsibility is madness. Having sovernty overruled by bureaucrats is not my idea of democracy.
2
If the Brits' main problem with EU policy was immigration maybe they should have tried to work within the Union to repeal or pare back the Schengen agreement. They probably would have been supported by other EU members. The baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.
1
The UK is not part of the Schengen Area.
2
Britain's political chaos would be laughable if it didn't represent such a blow to the dumb old white Englishmen who voted for Briexit. The politicians who sold England a load of hogwash about the benefits of leaving the EU are running away from their pre-referendum lies as fast as they can! Each is like a dog that finally catches a moving car after chasing after them all its life - it has no idea what to do with its success and no idea how to escape the danger its success has put him in. Ha! Ha!
5
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump. Wow.
A weird, dark part of me wants them to become the leaders of their respective countries, just so we can have those two heads of hair lead us.
A weird, dark part of me wants them to become the leaders of their respective countries, just so we can have those two heads of hair lead us.
3
The NYT and other world and British media really must stop distorting this situation for the sake of an exciting story
The facts are that Britian and all Europe and America (except Switzerland) have clear procedures for making laws. The people elect representatives (called MPs) in Britian who make decisions on behalf of the people. These decisions must be voted on and passed or rejected.
This referendum is NOT legally binding and is merely ADVISORY. It must be debated and voted on.As 490 MPs out of 640 are for remaining in the EU it will not be passed. When that happens there will probably be an election and later a new second referendum The leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party is a fanatical nationalist.She first suggested Scotland must have its own independence referendum because it wants to stay in the EU but has back tracked on that as she knows the Scots dont want to use the Euro currency ,or be run from Brussels or want a border between them and England where 90 percent of their imports and exports cross. They also know that in twenty years Scotlands oil industry will have vanished. The same applies to Northern Ireland. So forget stories about Britain breaking up
The stories of the EU members pushing for a quick British exit are also nonsense. There are clear rules for this kind of thing. No member can force the issue ..it must be made by Britain.This has been a shock but in a year after an election and a new referendum Britain will still be in the EU
The facts are that Britian and all Europe and America (except Switzerland) have clear procedures for making laws. The people elect representatives (called MPs) in Britian who make decisions on behalf of the people. These decisions must be voted on and passed or rejected.
This referendum is NOT legally binding and is merely ADVISORY. It must be debated and voted on.As 490 MPs out of 640 are for remaining in the EU it will not be passed. When that happens there will probably be an election and later a new second referendum The leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party is a fanatical nationalist.She first suggested Scotland must have its own independence referendum because it wants to stay in the EU but has back tracked on that as she knows the Scots dont want to use the Euro currency ,or be run from Brussels or want a border between them and England where 90 percent of their imports and exports cross. They also know that in twenty years Scotlands oil industry will have vanished. The same applies to Northern Ireland. So forget stories about Britain breaking up
The stories of the EU members pushing for a quick British exit are also nonsense. There are clear rules for this kind of thing. No member can force the issue ..it must be made by Britain.This has been a shock but in a year after an election and a new referendum Britain will still be in the EU
4
"...America (except Switzerland) have clear procedures for making laws."
I've to ask first whether you have also a Switzerland in America, or the USA. That one we have here in Europe has also clear procedures for laws albeit they are made preferentially at the level of the Cantons of the Confoederatio (and CH uses, in addition, more frequently than e.g. UK the instrument of a referendum).
Otherwise I agree with you that it is rather unclear (better: unlikely) that the UK will leave (intact) the Union - for a plenty of reasons.
The likelyhood the UK breaks up is higher and actually should be reduced, if wanted, by new elections just in this year.
"The stories of the EU members pushing for a quick British exit are also nonsense."
Why this? That's true as well as policy. Why media should not report about it?
"No member can force the issue ..it must be made by Britain."
Lithunia cannot force the UK to send a letter to Brussels, a visit of Holande and Merkel at Westminster (or Buckingham Palace?) can also not force the unkown PM to do this or that, but ...
And "to force the issue" (politically) is none of the uncountable privileges the UK has in this Union of 28.
I've to ask first whether you have also a Switzerland in America, or the USA. That one we have here in Europe has also clear procedures for laws albeit they are made preferentially at the level of the Cantons of the Confoederatio (and CH uses, in addition, more frequently than e.g. UK the instrument of a referendum).
Otherwise I agree with you that it is rather unclear (better: unlikely) that the UK will leave (intact) the Union - for a plenty of reasons.
The likelyhood the UK breaks up is higher and actually should be reduced, if wanted, by new elections just in this year.
"The stories of the EU members pushing for a quick British exit are also nonsense."
Why this? That's true as well as policy. Why media should not report about it?
"No member can force the issue ..it must be made by Britain."
Lithunia cannot force the UK to send a letter to Brussels, a visit of Holande and Merkel at Westminster (or Buckingham Palace?) can also not force the unkown PM to do this or that, but ...
And "to force the issue" (politically) is none of the uncountable privileges the UK has in this Union of 28.
If Scotland can manage to stay in the EU, the new leaders of Parliament will have to consider building a Trump Wall on their northern border.
2
It is already there. It is called Hadrian's Wall and the Romans built it. I think they made the Scots pay for it-but not sure.
2
And we are going to build that wall so high...it'll be beautiful and England is going to pay for it.
2
When will people understand that acts have consequences, and that it is better to consider the possibilities beforehand rather than rue the results afterward? Ah, hindsight...
5
From the Article:
"The turmoil spread on Sunday to the Labour Party, whose leader, Jeremy Cornyn, a leftist, now faces a challenge from members of Parliament who have never favored him."
Nowhere is David Cameron described as a rightist or a NeoLiberal or whatever.
Mr Cornyn is a member of the Labor Party. Prior to Tony Blair, that would have been enough. New Labor is like New Democrat or DLC, essentially someone in the wrong party.
"The turmoil spread on Sunday to the Labour Party, whose leader, Jeremy Cornyn, a leftist, now faces a challenge from members of Parliament who have never favored him."
Nowhere is David Cameron described as a rightist or a NeoLiberal or whatever.
Mr Cornyn is a member of the Labor Party. Prior to Tony Blair, that would have been enough. New Labor is like New Democrat or DLC, essentially someone in the wrong party.
3
If the leftist politicians who control Great Britain are somehow able to conduct another vote, of course it will reverse the Brexit decision. People have short term memories, and they usually vote with their wallets. A quick drop in the markets and fear mongering by the left has spread panic across Britain and the developed world. The pressure on Great Britain to somehow reverse the will of the people is enormous. There is no length to which leftists and one world order proponents will not go to have their way.
1
BoJo, leftist? You very funny man!
3
You don't actually have a clue about the makeup of the British government, do you?
1
The Leave campaign is smart. What we have right now is simply knee jerk reactions from markets to the Brexit uncertainty which can only be revealed and resolved over time. By dragging out the leave proceeding, Leave is allowing time for the markets to sober up and calm down. They can do it since no one else can force Britain to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty unless and until it's ready, and even then, there'll be the two year period for things to shake out once Article 50 is invoked. That will be more than two years for the dust to settle. I'd say, in the end, Britain will do just fine.
The real question now is really about Scotland and to a lesser extent, Northern Ireland. They could well have the independence referendum passed even before Brexit is completed eventually. Given the weak economy and not much resources to speak of, would EU really want these former satellite states? If Scotland is to breakaway, it'll cause a different sort of contagion on the continent, and Catalonia will be the first in line to break from Spain. Would EU want further fragmentation, and can it afford to, given that the UK (the third largest contributor to the EU budget) will be out of the picture?
The real question now is really about Scotland and to a lesser extent, Northern Ireland. They could well have the independence referendum passed even before Brexit is completed eventually. Given the weak economy and not much resources to speak of, would EU really want these former satellite states? If Scotland is to breakaway, it'll cause a different sort of contagion on the continent, and Catalonia will be the first in line to break from Spain. Would EU want further fragmentation, and can it afford to, given that the UK (the third largest contributor to the EU budget) will be out of the picture?
2
Where was the impartial media to provide the populace with facts and information, rather than merely printing talking points - now being walked back - by some of the main Brexit supporters?
We need media organizations that keeps us informed, not those that merely repeat - unchallenged - the latest uninformed and bombastic comment from blowhards.
We need media organizations that keeps us informed, not those that merely repeat - unchallenged - the latest uninformed and bombastic comment from blowhards.
5
So you'd think, but Brexit's biggest cheerleaders want to axe the BBC, too.
1
Sorry, NYT. 52-48 is not a clear signal from Britain. it is actually bitterly divided, with London (60%), Scotland (62%) and N Ireland (56%) CLEARLY voting to remain.
6
sorry 52-48 is called a WIN in th universe i live in
start your own universe where 52-48 is a loss
start your own universe where 52-48 is a loss
1
You've got to hand it to that David Cameron. Instead of solving an internal party squabble internally, he chooses to make a big mess that throws a continent into chaos...and walks away. Perhaps there is yet a way to preserve Britain's membership in the EU, after emotions have cooled, but Cameron's utter failure to be a leader, both in calling for the referendum and then just washing his hands of any of the aftermath, shows that he had no business sitting in the PM's chair in the first place. Who will fill the void and provide the kind of leadership that's now needed is a big question. None of the "contenders" seem to have what it takes, though. So, we watch anxiously and wait, and hope as markets tumble and lives are thrown into uncertainty that Britain's leaders will see the way through this mess. Thanks, David!
3
Isn't this the reason that we have a representative democracy? Technology will make it increasingly more easy to conduct population-wide referenda. But the whole point of representation is to have your point of view conveyed by trusted surrogates who have educated themselves fully on these issues. Brexit seems to me to be an example of the destructiveness that can occur when people respond emotionally and without knowledge of all the subtleties and possible consequences of their vote. In a larger sense, I think that the Brexit vote underscores a new tendency in our modernizing world: the desire to believe that there are simple solutions to very complex, global problems.
68
"In a larger sense, I think that the Brexit vote underscores a new tendency in our modernizing world: the desire to believe that there are simple solutions to very complex, global problems."
Indeed. And this points to the insidiousness of social media. For all the good it can do, 'simple solutions' -- taglines -- are now sought by those whose attention spans have been diminished by 140-character sound bytes. The Leave illusory campaign's slogan "Take Back Control" make us in the Remain camp laugh. Take back control from whom? From what?
Leaving the EU was much too complex a problem to put to a referendum, and Cameron should've known better. But then, he's an ex-PR man. Enough said.
Indeed. And this points to the insidiousness of social media. For all the good it can do, 'simple solutions' -- taglines -- are now sought by those whose attention spans have been diminished by 140-character sound bytes. The Leave illusory campaign's slogan "Take Back Control" make us in the Remain camp laugh. Take back control from whom? From what?
Leaving the EU was much too complex a problem to put to a referendum, and Cameron should've known better. But then, he's an ex-PR man. Enough said.
35
Problems are made even more complex when the system has to accommodate the insatiable greed of the elite. Whatever contradicts the establishment is considered "emotional". The fact of the matter is that under the current arrangement, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. To see such disparity one must go back to the 20's! It is your response, Doctor, that is "emotional and without knowledge".
1
Brexit is a huge mistake. Going though with it is even worse.
1
Why is it that all of the financial analysts being interviewed on TV are saying that BREXIT is meaningless from a financial perspective?? Yet the markets don't seem to think so. Why aren't government leaders in the UK and US stepping forward to speak with confidence about the economy??
2
Because financial analysts are wrong 50% of the time!
2
Voting for Brexit is one huge mistake. Going through with it is an even bigger one.
2
Arab Spring. Western Summer?
3
The people in Britain were right getting rid of this multiculturalism nonsense,the EU is only about cheap labor nothing more. Get rid of the EU, Nafta, wto all these groups are against the people's will.
4
The bankers of the EU farce have too much power.
4
A big mistake was made. Fix it!
5
An inordinate amount of ink is being used on this Bretix crisis -- Briton's nationalist fever, internal political turmoil, and unpopular election candidates to replace their highest elected official.
By writing about them so much, do you think that helps us become more comfortable with own crisis?
By writing about them so much, do you think that helps us become more comfortable with own crisis?
1
There is still time to stop this madness by holding an election. A real election, not a non-binding referendum. The British people did not vote to abolish the United Kingdom, but that is what will likely happen if Article 50 is invoked. Scotland and perhaps Northern Ireland will break from the UK rather than leave the EU. To enable a public vote on the probable dissolution of the UK, Parliament should create a one time exception to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act of 2011, which for the first time abolished the ability of the Prime Minister to unilaterally call an election prior to the expiration of the five-year term. In all of prior parliamentary history, a crisis like this would trigger an election. The candidates would stand for election focused on one issue -- invoke Article 50 and face dissolution of the UK, or not. That is the existential issue. I don't think any PM candidate promising to invoke Article 50 could win an election if the issue were framed in this way.
4
Some Brits were cheering freedom and liberation, but ironically it's the remaining Europeans who get liberated from Anglo-American neoliberal inteference in thei economy and more anti Russian war mongering.
Could Britain's loss be our gain as far as trading with Europe?
Lots of commentators are using expressions to relate to this article, so I though that I'd add 2 famous ones, as well.
1. "Let them Eat Cake"
2. "You can't have your cake and eat it too"
There are 2,000,000+ citizens who have signed a petition to have another referendum.
The referendum had both sides making lots of promises, and now the news is saying that many of the promises are not quite accurate or the goals can't be met. One example that comes to mind is the money that went to the EU. Now the same people are saying that that money should go to health care, but the sum is much lower than was said during the referendum.
Elections and referendum promises never come out the way they were promised.
The government and voters made this mess, and now they will have to live with it.
1. "Let them Eat Cake"
2. "You can't have your cake and eat it too"
There are 2,000,000+ citizens who have signed a petition to have another referendum.
The referendum had both sides making lots of promises, and now the news is saying that many of the promises are not quite accurate or the goals can't be met. One example that comes to mind is the money that went to the EU. Now the same people are saying that that money should go to health care, but the sum is much lower than was said during the referendum.
Elections and referendum promises never come out the way they were promised.
The government and voters made this mess, and now they will have to live with it.
1
The wonderful irony of all this is that one of the more likely scenarios - not the most likeliest, but say the top three - is the UK leaves the EU and then after a few years reapplies to join again - but then it would have to give up the pound and accept to use the euro.
3
It looks like a case of buyer remorse.
How can EU accept back a member knowing full well that she will not play the game with her heart in it? Knowing that well over ½ of the English want it out?
No wonder Charles de Gaulle was wary of the English. He vetoed their membership twice. The English only got in when he had parted from this earth.
Europe will never be the same again.
How can EU accept back a member knowing full well that she will not play the game with her heart in it? Knowing that well over ½ of the English want it out?
No wonder Charles de Gaulle was wary of the English. He vetoed their membership twice. The English only got in when he had parted from this earth.
Europe will never be the same again.
5
Here's a possible way out: hold a second referendum on a timetable. It would look like this:
WHEN SHOULD BRITAIN LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION?
( ) Next Tuesday
( ) Next year
( ) Maybe in 50 years or so
( ) Never
- - - - -
That should give the politicians some much-needed guidance.
WHEN SHOULD BRITAIN LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION?
( ) Next Tuesday
( ) Next year
( ) Maybe in 50 years or so
( ) Never
- - - - -
That should give the politicians some much-needed guidance.
4
Direct democracy is great because the elites can't control it like they do representative democracy. Easier to control 500 than 50 million.
7
And, direct democracy is bad because the elites cannot control it.
5
It's not bad in my book.
There's a reason our founders didn't embrace more so-called "direct democracy." I suggest you do some more research before endorsing the "democratic" equivalent of mob rule.
1
I bet the powers that be will push for another vote to overturn the people's choice, Mark my words.
6
There are already 2,000,000 who signed a petition to have a new referendum!
2
That petition is a clever talking point, little else.
2
3.5 million as of last night, actually.
2
HOORAY for the Brits! It is an excellent move to take back your country. You were a force prior to the existence of the EU and you will be a force again. Now the British will be able to vote for their laws and economic rulings instead of a bunch of bureaucrats, centrally housed, with no transparency, in another county, that don't even know the British citizenry!! I hope other European countries take note and follow suit - restore your DEMOCRACY NOW!!
5
A "force", you say? How about "colonial wasters".
1
And cause a global financial panic. Better to reform the EU than dismantle it.
Anyone who uses such a ridiculous phrase as "take back your country" to refer to this referendum has lost all validity.
Why does Johnson remind me of Trump? Is it the rhetoric, the hair, or that they're both from New York City?
I don't know if we can take both a Johnson and a Trump.
I don't know if we can take both a Johnson and a Trump.
7
Could it be that you have a simplistic and superficial understanding of British politics? Johnson might have a clownish persona, but he is a smart, thoughtful centrist and was twice elected mayor of the world's most successful city. Trump is unintentionally clownish, clueless about policy matters and unfit to be dogcatcher, much less president of the United States. Johnson might not be the right man to replace Cameron, but comparisons with Trump are false.
1
Looks like the dog that caught the car....
4
I'm not surprised that Boris Johnson - a symbol of bigotry - was a major figure in the successful campaign to mislead the British people into leaving the EU. Johnson, like his fellow bigots here in the US led by Trump, will lie cheat and steal to spread the forces of Satan into society. In the US they are aided by the far right religious groups led by people like Tony Perkins.
3
Please give us some facts about Boris Johnson "a symbol of bigotry"
1
In your companion article you correctly assert that the US has lost its trojan horse at the EU table and will not be able to influence events in the EU. That is why I rejoice in Brexit. The EU is the hope of the World and will prosper without the negative influence that we and the K, formally the UK use particularly to goad Europe into our endless war policies. THe EU should see to it that K exits today and quickly, for the good of the World. I hope this sounds the death knell of NATO.
4
Wow. Rooting for the US to lose its influence and power. Let me guess. A progressive?
2
Neither a republican, nor a democrat but a person who opposes Fascism wherever it raises its ugly head as it has here and there in the K.
1
I bet those Baltic states would beg to differ. NATO is the only thing protecting them from Russia.
1
So the leaders of the Leave side aren't sure what to do now. They won't be able to deliver on the lies and falsehoods they peddled. What a pickle they've gotten themselves in (and Great Britain, Europe, and the world).
This will be what it's like if Trump somehow wins. A man full of sound and fury signifying absolutely nothing (apologies to Faulkner) with no idea how to run the most powerful country in the world. But that won't stop him because he's unaware of his ignorance.
Hubris on both sides of the Atlantic.
This will be what it's like if Trump somehow wins. A man full of sound and fury signifying absolutely nothing (apologies to Faulkner) with no idea how to run the most powerful country in the world. But that won't stop him because he's unaware of his ignorance.
Hubris on both sides of the Atlantic.
5
Apologies to Shakespeare from whom Faulkner borrowed the phrase.
1
Eric, please do not check your Macbeth at the door when you enter.
Majority of the damage from this Tsunami of a decision, is not going to be felt in Britain for at least another three or four years. That's how long its going to take the manufacturers and their satellite business to do their "Brexodus."
3
The happiest people about the Brexit results….
Trump
Putin
China
Racists
Makes you see how "bad" Brexit really is…for the rest of the world…and for decency...
Trump
Putin
China
Racists
Makes you see how "bad" Brexit really is…for the rest of the world…and for decency...
6
The Founding Fathers feared situations like this (and Donald Trump) in the US. They tried to plan for the "will of the people" derailing their project and destroying the Republic. Hence the Electoral College which must never, Never, NEVER go away. There must always be a check on the mad behavior of the uninformed masses of which I am one.
The simple fact is most people aren't qualified or informed enough to vote on something like Brexit. They don't have the information, the fore-thought or the sophistication to understand the ramifications of their vote and I include myself in this.
It is complete and utter folly to put something like this to a vote of the people. The Brits should have known better. If there is any possible way to hit the reset button here, they should seize it. Damn the will of the people. They don't know enough to choose.
The simple fact is most people aren't qualified or informed enough to vote on something like Brexit. They don't have the information, the fore-thought or the sophistication to understand the ramifications of their vote and I include myself in this.
It is complete and utter folly to put something like this to a vote of the people. The Brits should have known better. If there is any possible way to hit the reset button here, they should seize it. Damn the will of the people. They don't know enough to choose.
9
That is a pretty elitist statement mj.
6
DC: elitist maybe but not untrue about most people being unintelligent and uninformed. unfortunately everyone has to lie in the grave they dug.
1
But it's factually correct. The founding fathers feared mob rule, the Brexit being the latest example.
The city of London will move to Edinburgh if Scotland Scotexits great Britain, or to Dublin or Frankfurt. England has no real industry left and although the banksters siphoned off nearly all of the wealth a tiny bit did go to the government in taxes on the restaurants and hotels they played in so in fact the extreme wealth of London was a net positive for the average brexit voting brit.
This was a very bad idea. Absolutely of no benefit. Merkel should have given David Cameron his reasonable wish for free market, free trade, but less immigrants - and while she is at is she should step down and let someone in Germany close the borders to immigrants but keep them open to trade. .
This was a very bad idea. Absolutely of no benefit. Merkel should have given David Cameron his reasonable wish for free market, free trade, but less immigrants - and while she is at is she should step down and let someone in Germany close the borders to immigrants but keep them open to trade. .
4
The vote to leave the EU may have been a mistake based on campaign exaggerations and lies.
A much bigger mistake would be to go down a path that the majority of the UK do not want.
Cameron, should call for another referendum in the next two weeks to verify the result of the previous referendum. Sure he will look like a fool, but he already looks like a fool, so no additional damage will be done.
A much bigger mistake would be to go down a path that the majority of the UK do not want.
Cameron, should call for another referendum in the next two weeks to verify the result of the previous referendum. Sure he will look like a fool, but he already looks like a fool, so no additional damage will be done.
2
You are correct, Cameron is the only one now who could call for a confirmation or additional vote, since he's already toast. Perhaps he might be able to redeem himself, somewhat, if the second vote succeeds for "remain."
1
Pride goeth before the fall.
There has been a lot of buyer's remorse over here. Some Brits even say that when they voted Brexit they didn't actually think it would happen.
It goes to show you that the Fox News audience aren't the only people with a firm hold on ignorance.
The ignorant English have their Daily Mail and The Sun. They have been brainwashed into voting in stupid ways as well.
But we can separate the normal dim Englishman from the one who supports Boris Johnson. The former really did fear for his work and his house. The latter, those who supported Johnson, were true blue nationalists. They wear the Union Jack (there is irony in that will simply become the cross of St George) as any Trump supporter wears the star spangled banner. One is afraid of immigrants taking jobs. They read the Sun. The other is afraid of losing their cultural identity which is none other than a faded hope that the empire will return. They read the Spectator and the Daily Mail and try to talk posh like Boris. The former I pity. Like Fox News listeners they swallow what their media masters tell them. The latter is just a plain ugly version of anywhere-nationalist-proto-fascism. The lovers of Boris are generally well-heeled and will not fare as poorly as the ignorant masses who aligned with them.
There has been a lot of buyer's remorse over here. Some Brits even say that when they voted Brexit they didn't actually think it would happen.
It goes to show you that the Fox News audience aren't the only people with a firm hold on ignorance.
The ignorant English have their Daily Mail and The Sun. They have been brainwashed into voting in stupid ways as well.
But we can separate the normal dim Englishman from the one who supports Boris Johnson. The former really did fear for his work and his house. The latter, those who supported Johnson, were true blue nationalists. They wear the Union Jack (there is irony in that will simply become the cross of St George) as any Trump supporter wears the star spangled banner. One is afraid of immigrants taking jobs. They read the Sun. The other is afraid of losing their cultural identity which is none other than a faded hope that the empire will return. They read the Spectator and the Daily Mail and try to talk posh like Boris. The former I pity. Like Fox News listeners they swallow what their media masters tell them. The latter is just a plain ugly version of anywhere-nationalist-proto-fascism. The lovers of Boris are generally well-heeled and will not fare as poorly as the ignorant masses who aligned with them.
4
So the establishment types are now seeking to neutralize Jeremy Corbyn, head of the Labor Party, because they believe a "leftist" like him would lead the party to "electoral disaster."
Quite reminiscent of the Democratic Party establishment's treatment of Bernie Sanders, isn't it?
Elites on either side of the Atlantic do not seem to understand the level of discontent among ordinary people who have seen their prospects grow dimmer (and in some cases more desperate) as governments become more and more loyal servants of the rich and powerful.
We may be in a time of choices whose importance will only be realized in hindsight. If there is not a true populist reform --forging policies that work for the good of the 99 percent in both Europe and America-- the elites may reap the whirlwind their neoliberal economic policies have sowed.
Over here Secretary Clinton may be elected, but the nation's problems will continue to deepen if there is no real change.
The article in yesterday's Times about the privatization of emergency services and the disastrous effects of running ambulances and fire departments for profit was one of the most chilling things I have read in years.
Most Americans have no idea how their governments --from federal to local-- have sold them and their vital interests out to the crony capitalists who finance political campaigns.
Anyone campaigning on this situation alone, with facts, figures and anecdotes will have a very powerful message for the electorate.
Quite reminiscent of the Democratic Party establishment's treatment of Bernie Sanders, isn't it?
Elites on either side of the Atlantic do not seem to understand the level of discontent among ordinary people who have seen their prospects grow dimmer (and in some cases more desperate) as governments become more and more loyal servants of the rich and powerful.
We may be in a time of choices whose importance will only be realized in hindsight. If there is not a true populist reform --forging policies that work for the good of the 99 percent in both Europe and America-- the elites may reap the whirlwind their neoliberal economic policies have sowed.
Over here Secretary Clinton may be elected, but the nation's problems will continue to deepen if there is no real change.
The article in yesterday's Times about the privatization of emergency services and the disastrous effects of running ambulances and fire departments for profit was one of the most chilling things I have read in years.
Most Americans have no idea how their governments --from federal to local-- have sold them and their vital interests out to the crony capitalists who finance political campaigns.
Anyone campaigning on this situation alone, with facts, figures and anecdotes will have a very powerful message for the electorate.
9
Step 1: House of Commons repeals the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act of 2011, restoring the royal prerogative to dissolve Parliament . . .
Step 2: . . . which the Queen exercises.
Step 3: New general election produces a new House of Commons . . .
Step 4: . . . which calls a second referendum on the EU question.
Step 2: . . . which the Queen exercises.
Step 3: New general election produces a new House of Commons . . .
Step 4: . . . which calls a second referendum on the EU question.
3
Lorem wants a rigged game.
3
Message here for US voters: Trump will not solve US economic ills, but will most likely crash the economy. Between Trump and Boris Johnson we could have two inexperienced buffoons running the two top democracies in the world.
7
@LVG. I'll give you for the sake of argument that the US is one of the two top democracies in the world. But the UK the other one? On what basis?
3
abo - perhaps, at least partially, on the basis that Britain essentially engendered the US?
There is a huge lesson here for any group planning some type of secession. You better have a plan for success. Great Britain had none. David Cameron and other experienced politicians are refusing to "clean up" the mess from the vote. The EU was similar to the United States with one agreement covering all members, relatively free movement between countries. Now GB might as well be Russia. All types of new agreements and border protocols need to be set up with the EU.
If Texas or Alaska seceded, they would become countries and lose all benefits as states. They must have international agreements with the US. Texas would need their own military to keep Mexico from invading. Alaska would need a military to keep Canada, Russia, North Korea and China from invading. All residents of Alaska and Texas would need passports to enter the United States. Both states would need trade agreements to move goods to the 48 states and other countries.
If Texas or Alaska seceded, they would become countries and lose all benefits as states. They must have international agreements with the US. Texas would need their own military to keep Mexico from invading. Alaska would need a military to keep Canada, Russia, North Korea and China from invading. All residents of Alaska and Texas would need passports to enter the United States. Both states would need trade agreements to move goods to the 48 states and other countries.
2
If Boris Johnson ends up as the head of British government the Brits will have their own goofball with weird hair to contend with, just as we Americans might. Small consolation, I know, but misery loves...
2
Ah, the bloody English. A race of indigents subsumed by a majority of idiots. Hideous weather, poisonous cuisine, and vacuous class war and still they fight each other for the glorious Raj. Thanks for the democracy lesson. We in the States gained more from the Seneca than ever from you.
4
LOVE the picture of Boris Johnson..... next to the headline: ... Void at the Top!
Do we think he and Donald use the same hair products? Coincidence? Cause?
Cameron... and Merkel.... how did they not see that austerity effecting the people not responsible for the economic collapse would cause a little anger?
Do we think he and Donald use the same hair products? Coincidence? Cause?
Cameron... and Merkel.... how did they not see that austerity effecting the people not responsible for the economic collapse would cause a little anger?
5
The voting is done and they must live with their decision. People have some nerve with their dissent.
4
Indeed. It's simply unheard of that citizens in a free society might dissent from a decision that is not in there best interests, and isn't legally binding in any case. Thank God that we have stern authoritarians like you to keep them in line.
3
Obviously, the British did not clearly think through all the issues that might arise if the vote were to leave the EU. This now leaves many people shocked and surprised with the consequences of rejecting EU membership. Unfortunately, many of the consequences were predictable, if not known, but were brushed away by wishful thinking.
Now faced with the sober reality that they may have made a bad choice, the British are going to have to find a graceful way to try to put the pieces back together again, if that is possible. And it is not yet certain that there is a dependable desire to do that, notwithstanding Scotland's position about veto rights over the leave decision.
The choices are very stark. Do Britain's leaders stick with the choice that the British voters made and try to make the best of it? Or, do they accept the possibility that the British voters may be willing to recognize that they may have made a mistake and find a way to undo things through another referendum or other democratic means? Ignoring the vote would be a mistake.
Given the rather stern attitude of the remainder of the EU's leaders, it may be more wishful thinking that they would be willing to make major concessions to Britain to keep it in the fold. That may not happen were Britain to want to get back in, which would then put Britain in a very weak position going forward, which might then mean, in the long run, that, now being out, it might be better to stay out and make the best of it.
Now faced with the sober reality that they may have made a bad choice, the British are going to have to find a graceful way to try to put the pieces back together again, if that is possible. And it is not yet certain that there is a dependable desire to do that, notwithstanding Scotland's position about veto rights over the leave decision.
The choices are very stark. Do Britain's leaders stick with the choice that the British voters made and try to make the best of it? Or, do they accept the possibility that the British voters may be willing to recognize that they may have made a mistake and find a way to undo things through another referendum or other democratic means? Ignoring the vote would be a mistake.
Given the rather stern attitude of the remainder of the EU's leaders, it may be more wishful thinking that they would be willing to make major concessions to Britain to keep it in the fold. That may not happen were Britain to want to get back in, which would then put Britain in a very weak position going forward, which might then mean, in the long run, that, now being out, it might be better to stay out and make the best of it.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling... Where are the grownups?!
2
This is a very simple situation and a cautionary tale to the left. The media and political left are completely out of touch with the populous, not just in the UK, but in the US as well. And then, they are shocked at the outcomes of these elections.
The terms racist and bigotry are used by the left against those that disagree with their policies. When, in the end, their policies are abject failures.
A majority of people in the UK simply voted to take their country back and to not follow these failed policies. It's that simple. Instead of trying to dissect the voter/demographic chemistry, another look at these failed policies should come to the forefront.
Now, all we hear about is "chaos" in leadership and "market disruption". All this means is that the establishment, both political and financial, were caught on the wrong side of this decision. The socialist status quo was disrupted. Well, sorry. Freedom and democracy do not operate around a status quo. Politicians and markets operate around freedom. Markets and politicians will adjust as necessary.
The 1960's and early 70's in the US offer an interesting example of this. Some remember these great left policies with a degree of nostalgia. In some instances, such as Civil Right, rightly so. However, one should also remember the elections that resulted beginning in 1968. Nixon, Nixon, the failure of 1976, then Reagan, Reagan, and Bush. These elections occur when left leaning policies run rampant. BREXIT is the latest.
The terms racist and bigotry are used by the left against those that disagree with their policies. When, in the end, their policies are abject failures.
A majority of people in the UK simply voted to take their country back and to not follow these failed policies. It's that simple. Instead of trying to dissect the voter/demographic chemistry, another look at these failed policies should come to the forefront.
Now, all we hear about is "chaos" in leadership and "market disruption". All this means is that the establishment, both political and financial, were caught on the wrong side of this decision. The socialist status quo was disrupted. Well, sorry. Freedom and democracy do not operate around a status quo. Politicians and markets operate around freedom. Markets and politicians will adjust as necessary.
The 1960's and early 70's in the US offer an interesting example of this. Some remember these great left policies with a degree of nostalgia. In some instances, such as Civil Right, rightly so. However, one should also remember the elections that resulted beginning in 1968. Nixon, Nixon, the failure of 1976, then Reagan, Reagan, and Bush. These elections occur when left leaning policies run rampant. BREXIT is the latest.
4
This has nothing to do with the voters "taking their country back" and everything to do with an ill informed public, mislead by demogogues, reacting to imaginary crises. Much like the Trump supporters in this country who, if they win, will find out they haven't gotten what they bargained for.
2
The real "chaos" is among those having trouble accepting this decision. (Dare we call them, "Deniers"?)
They are clinging to "information", throwing facts and figures, not realizing that all the information in the world won't change the fact that there was a vote and it turned out a certain way.
While the arguments against that decision are coming furiously, it should be noted that just because clever arguments can be made does not mean they must prevail.
All this debating is just a way to deny what is obviously very hard to accept.
They are clinging to "information", throwing facts and figures, not realizing that all the information in the world won't change the fact that there was a vote and it turned out a certain way.
While the arguments against that decision are coming furiously, it should be noted that just because clever arguments can be made does not mean they must prevail.
All this debating is just a way to deny what is obviously very hard to accept.
2
Readers take note that AACNY is not in favor of voting based on facts and "information." I'll give you one guess on who he's voting for in the upcoming Presidential election.
I was not as virulently anti-Corbyn as many were when Labour chose him as leader, but the Brexit vote shows he has little or no skill at leadership. Many Labour strongholds in the N and NE of England voted for Brexit, against their party's wishes. Corbyn's milquetoast support of the EU during the campaign contributed do that. It's time for him to go. Should Labour go into an election behind Corbyn they face the sort of annihilation the Republicans will be handed as they goose-step behind Drumpf in November (a spectacle I personally cannot wait for).
The dire consequences of the Brexit vote, prophesied by the derided "experts" (what would they know anyway, with their "facts" and "studies"?), are playing out as predicted: financial turmoil and political chaos.
Britain just voted itself off a cliff, by following populist blowhards, liars, and racists. Take note, America. The pro-Brexit side ran a Republican-style campaign of lies and misinformation that pushed nativism and barely concealed racism. Look where it got them.
The dire consequences of the Brexit vote, prophesied by the derided "experts" (what would they know anyway, with their "facts" and "studies"?), are playing out as predicted: financial turmoil and political chaos.
Britain just voted itself off a cliff, by following populist blowhards, liars, and racists. Take note, America. The pro-Brexit side ran a Republican-style campaign of lies and misinformation that pushed nativism and barely concealed racism. Look where it got them.
5
Seems to me an election would trump (please forgive choice of words) a referendum. Perhaps that's the graceful way out of what an increasing number of people on both sides may come to see as a regrettable event with unforeseen consequences.
3
There's nothing legally, constitutionally,or morally wrong with reversing the decision, either through a new referendum or by act of Parliament. They can pass a law one day and repeal it the next, or ask the voters' advice as often as they please. The only issue is whether there is enough evidence of a change of mind to justify the time, effort, uncertainty and disruption. There is no constitutional barrier to deal with, just whatever citizen irritation would occur.
2
Yes, there IS something wrong with asking the people to decide and then ignoring their decision. Very wrong...and very elitist.
2
Brexit Leave was a vote against immigrants and minorities. It was a vote based on false promises of greater benefits for Brits. It was a vote based on little knowledge of the chaotic outcome that would result both politically and economically as the pound falls to new lows and politicians admit their failure to look after the best interest of their country.
The people that are going to suffer most are the pensioners who voted overwhelmingly to Leave and the youth, who didn't bother to vote. It was a perfect storm of anger, misinformation and apathy. There are many lessons to be learned here in the United States from this tragedy. A Trump Presidency would make Brexit look like a walk in the park.
The people that are going to suffer most are the pensioners who voted overwhelmingly to Leave and the youth, who didn't bother to vote. It was a perfect storm of anger, misinformation and apathy. There are many lessons to be learned here in the United States from this tragedy. A Trump Presidency would make Brexit look like a walk in the park.
6
There was nothing "clearly stated" as has been stated here put it. There is no "wWill of the people" (A ridiculous line). The Willl of the people went back and forth every week. And that Will will continue to do so. The Will of the people was also expressed (what a line) 52% followed some demagogues and a tabloid press that is even worse than out own, right down the primrose path, drinking the Kool-aid and throwing themselves over a cliff, taking the world order that had been built since before Queen Elizabeth was born by Churchill, Roosevelt, Adenauer, Chirac, De,Gaulle, Reagan, Clinton Willson, Hume, Schultz, and 100 others statesmen with them. What are we owed for defending Europe through a cold war so that British pensioners are receiving their pensions. What is France and Germany owed for working to adjust the "Will of the people" in their countries in order to build this Union. Do you think that we loved throwing a huge percentage of our budget in the US and that the Will of the people did not need to be thoughtfully managed in order to build along with Britain, Germany and France a world order that has worked pretty well.
Churchill said "There will always be an England. Indeed their will, but within a year or tw, there will no longer be a Great Britain. By the way, my father was a vet of world war II stationed in England. !/3 of his unit died, and I am named after one of them. And the Flavor of the Week has thrown this world into insecurity.
Churchill said "There will always be an England. Indeed their will, but within a year or tw, there will no longer be a Great Britain. By the way, my father was a vet of world war II stationed in England. !/3 of his unit died, and I am named after one of them. And the Flavor of the Week has thrown this world into insecurity.
1
The will of the people was the results
1
"Clearly-stated will of the British people" appears to be a very relative term, if the news reports are accurate. If many Britons did not know what exactly they were voting for, or what Brexit would mean, how is this vote a clear statement of will by the majority? Whichever way this goes, in the end it will leave voters in Britain even more cynical and disillusioned with the process.
3
At the core the Brexit vote is jobs. The problem is that many jobs are lost to those smart machines. Unless we face head on the role very sophisticated machines have on jobs and transform our workforce to live in a mechanized world, false causes, especially emotionally charged causes like immigration, illegal or legal, will blind us to what is needed to have a thriving economy.
2
Brexit is about one thing. Immigration of a certain type. nothing else.
2
NB
The "lose your job to a machine" phenomenon started in the early 1800s at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution.
There were roots and sabotage back then.. Some people are very fearful of change.
They might as well vote to repeal the Law of Gravity for all the good it will do them. Society advances and changes over time. People who do not change with the times get run over and left behind.
That is part of life.
The "lose your job to a machine" phenomenon started in the early 1800s at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution.
There were roots and sabotage back then.. Some people are very fearful of change.
They might as well vote to repeal the Law of Gravity for all the good it will do them. Society advances and changes over time. People who do not change with the times get run over and left behind.
That is part of life.
Let us assume that the Brexit vote was a trial balloon to assess the consequences that may occur. Now that we know how ill prepared Britain was to Brexit, it is time the prodigal member of EU returns to the fold by taking another referendum whether Britain should return to EU call it BRETURN. Such a return could negotiate to define a new relationship for the future eg Britain can say no to unregulated and unvetted entry of immigrants/refigees/jobseekers and other Europeans into Britain and the stifling rules that threaten British independence could be changed and the EU CAN REFORM. The Brexit supporters have made a serious point but now is not the time to do and die. Now is the time to question why? Why Brexit and what could reverse some of the adverse effects of Brexit but at the same time eliminating the disadvantages of Bremain. I call on the British leaders on both sides of the Brexit vote to rise to the occasion and not run around like chickens with their heads cut off. It has reached the stage of chicken little and the sky is falling not just overcast with uncertainty. May be the British monarchy and the queen should call on the nation to save the pound from taking further pounding and the U.K. from a worsening economic tsunami that is having a domino effect globally
2
The "great" in great Britain left a long time ago. It is just a UK made up of four small countries. They have a seat at the UN, big deal. UN does nothing worth while - it is a rubber stamp for what the USA and its patsies want to do-, it should be abandoned.
If Britain fell off a cliff the world would function just fine, and to all those who think Britain is what is anchoring the world I say go and have your head examined. There is nothing that is exclusive British that the world cannot live without.
I visited London twice in my life while transiting and both times I found it congested and disgusting. Nothing to write home about. They are living with their nostalgia of having ruled so many places, well if they were "great" they would still be ruling the world. Arrogance is what made them lose that empire and it still shows, regrettably.
The immigrants that they dislike, would fare better if they left and they would see how Brits lives crumble. They cannot live without all the services provided by the immigrants. It is a shame on the immigrants to do cleanup of the filth of these Brits.
If Britain fell off a cliff the world would function just fine, and to all those who think Britain is what is anchoring the world I say go and have your head examined. There is nothing that is exclusive British that the world cannot live without.
I visited London twice in my life while transiting and both times I found it congested and disgusting. Nothing to write home about. They are living with their nostalgia of having ruled so many places, well if they were "great" they would still be ruling the world. Arrogance is what made them lose that empire and it still shows, regrettably.
The immigrants that they dislike, would fare better if they left and they would see how Brits lives crumble. They cannot live without all the services provided by the immigrants. It is a shame on the immigrants to do cleanup of the filth of these Brits.
2
It is a fallacy that a new UK PM needs to be selected and installed by October 2016; before the Article 50 is submitted to the EU and BrExit talks can begin. This is completely wrong.
No government in the world depends on only the head of government (President or PM) alone. They always have plan B and do not rely on 1 person.
Thus in the UK, if Cameron wants to shirk his duty as the PM to follow through the BrExit with the EU leaders; then the #2 minister in the current UK government will have to carry out that duty.
There is NO need to somehow find a new UK PM to replace Cameron, for the purpose of starting the BrExit process + Article 50.
There is NO need for delay.
There may not even be a need for UK to formally submit Article 50 to the EU.
The Article 50 submission requirement was drafted to ensure that any EU member country is clear on wanting to exit and that this decision has the mandate of the people.
In the case of the highly publicised UK 2016 referendum, the will of the UK citizens is clearly expressed, and widely reported on. Everyone knows.
The rest of the world knows.
As far as EU leaders are concerned, after Cameron made that speech on 24 June 2016 conceding that UK voters have in a majority voted in the referendum to leave the EU --- THAT is in fact the legal equivalent of Article 50 being submitted.
The intention and decision to leave the EU are both clear and unequivocal.
No government in the world depends on only the head of government (President or PM) alone. They always have plan B and do not rely on 1 person.
Thus in the UK, if Cameron wants to shirk his duty as the PM to follow through the BrExit with the EU leaders; then the #2 minister in the current UK government will have to carry out that duty.
There is NO need to somehow find a new UK PM to replace Cameron, for the purpose of starting the BrExit process + Article 50.
There is NO need for delay.
There may not even be a need for UK to formally submit Article 50 to the EU.
The Article 50 submission requirement was drafted to ensure that any EU member country is clear on wanting to exit and that this decision has the mandate of the people.
In the case of the highly publicised UK 2016 referendum, the will of the UK citizens is clearly expressed, and widely reported on. Everyone knows.
The rest of the world knows.
As far as EU leaders are concerned, after Cameron made that speech on 24 June 2016 conceding that UK voters have in a majority voted in the referendum to leave the EU --- THAT is in fact the legal equivalent of Article 50 being submitted.
The intention and decision to leave the EU are both clear and unequivocal.
"THAT is in fact the legal equivalent of Article 50 being submitted."
You are, quite simply,wrong about this. The referendum which took place is not, in and of itself, legally binding in either an EU or UK context. Likewise, Article 50 can only be invoked by a legally constituted government, not by some supposed "will of the people." This is simply the beginning of a long process which may (or may not) result in the UK actually leaving the EU.
You are, quite simply,wrong about this. The referendum which took place is not, in and of itself, legally binding in either an EU or UK context. Likewise, Article 50 can only be invoked by a legally constituted government, not by some supposed "will of the people." This is simply the beginning of a long process which may (or may not) result in the UK actually leaving the EU.
Funny that British voters old enough to remember what disunity led to between 1914 and 1945 voted largely pro-Brexit, whereas younger people voted Remain. So often, age needs to listen to youth. People left hard up by globalization have my 100 percent sympathy but I lay the fault for it squarely in the laps of the One Percent, worldwide, not in the lap of European unity.
If I had to bet, my money would be on the UK figuring out some way around this vote and remaining basically joined to the E.U. If that referendum had been held six months sooner or six months later, the result might well have been the opposite.
If I had to bet, my money would be on the UK figuring out some way around this vote and remaining basically joined to the E.U. If that referendum had been held six months sooner or six months later, the result might well have been the opposite.
4
Britain was surprised that the people were so unhappy with their un-elected leadership in Brussels that they would vote for Brexit. Here, in the US, leaders were surprised that the Republicans, with few controls on their primaries, chose someone who reflected their anger with their current leadership. The Democrats, with many controls, chose to ignore the anger and disappointment of their under-45 year olds and essentially steered the process towards selecting someone who thinks a few tweaks and increments are all that is needed to make people happy. Finally, we see in today's polls that in a head-to-head contest, moderate Hillary beats crazy Donald by double digits. But, when third parties are included, Hillary and Donald are a dead heat. That means that the disaffected (those disliking the main party candidates) may "surprise" the media and party leads again... just as with Brexit. Ignore the people at your own peril.
2
I hear the hypocritical politicians and phony liberal commentators babbling on and on about the negative implications of Brexis gloomily casting it as a return to a closed world and as a fearful reaction to the "openness" of globalism. All of this is a smokescreen for corporate globalism which with the cooperation and complicity of politicians and the media has spread its evil tentacles around the world. The people have finally risen up against it. They have killed Grendl. Now Grendel's mother is striking back.
7
This whole episode proves something very important about democracy: some issues are far too complex and nuanced to leave to popular referendum. That's why we don't leave civil rights issues to be decided by the popular majority in the U.S. Indeed, it's the reason we have "representative democracy" rather than referendums all the time. We're supposed to be able to elect leaders capable of making wise decisions on complex issues, not "leaders" who simply manipulate popular opinion through fact omission.
10
I trust the choice of an individual far more than some so called informed representative.
1
There is no way the English powers that be will allow Brexit to actually be implemented. Brexit would be an unmitigated disaster for the world's economy and England's in particular. The ruling class as usual was completely out of touch with the plebes' resentment. I am surprised the powers that be allowed this matter to be decided by the great unwashed.
However it isn't over until the exit is formally signed, sealed and delivered by both the UK and EU. There's no time period for the severance to be effected in the EU founding documents. It is apparent that the drafters of the EU agreement never contemplated a member leaving. It will take years for the parties to finalize the divorce, given there are no laws governing this type of divorce and no precedent.
The English rulers will figure out some way of wiggling out of this disastrous decision. Ironically, it may be the Scots who put the brakes on.
My hope is that the Scots will scotch Brexit and then secede from Great Britain, making Great Britain what? Not-so- Great Britain, Formerly Great Britain?
However it isn't over until the exit is formally signed, sealed and delivered by both the UK and EU. There's no time period for the severance to be effected in the EU founding documents. It is apparent that the drafters of the EU agreement never contemplated a member leaving. It will take years for the parties to finalize the divorce, given there are no laws governing this type of divorce and no precedent.
The English rulers will figure out some way of wiggling out of this disastrous decision. Ironically, it may be the Scots who put the brakes on.
My hope is that the Scots will scotch Brexit and then secede from Great Britain, making Great Britain what? Not-so- Great Britain, Formerly Great Britain?
3
It was Cameron's bright idea to hold this vote. Glad he has resigned.
The camp that wanted to stay obviously did not do a good enough job in communicating the benefits of staying within the EU. The voters didn't understand exactly what they were voting for and now have buyer's remorse.
The most googled questions after the vote are basic questions like what is the EU, what does leaving the EU mean, etc. Is it possible to have a do over vote?
Cold comfort to know the same low information voter who voted against immigration with their anger instead of their head are also in the UK- and not just here with the Trump supporters.
Maybe Trump supporters here will learn a lesson when they cast an uninformed vote- but probably not.
This should be a warning for the EU though at the very least. You cannot continue to shove the same immigration policies down everyone's throat when there is not popular support for it. Was the Angela Merkel recent acceptance of a huge number of Syrian refugees into Germany a contributing factor in people's decision to leave the EU at this time? I don't know the answer but I suspect it didn't help the Stay movement.
The camp that wanted to stay obviously did not do a good enough job in communicating the benefits of staying within the EU. The voters didn't understand exactly what they were voting for and now have buyer's remorse.
The most googled questions after the vote are basic questions like what is the EU, what does leaving the EU mean, etc. Is it possible to have a do over vote?
Cold comfort to know the same low information voter who voted against immigration with their anger instead of their head are also in the UK- and not just here with the Trump supporters.
Maybe Trump supporters here will learn a lesson when they cast an uninformed vote- but probably not.
This should be a warning for the EU though at the very least. You cannot continue to shove the same immigration policies down everyone's throat when there is not popular support for it. Was the Angela Merkel recent acceptance of a huge number of Syrian refugees into Germany a contributing factor in people's decision to leave the EU at this time? I don't know the answer but I suspect it didn't help the Stay movement.
3
He's announced only that he intends to leave in October, after the ship is firmly run around. Not the same thing as resigning.
2
aaargh - for "around" please read "aground."
Whats the crisis?
3
Let me get to the bottom line: Progressive one-world view rejected. May presage a Trump victory. People who hold that view and those who benefit mightily from it seriously rattled.
1
That guy Brian Johnson looks eerily like the British version of D. Trump!
2
(Average daily circulation figures of British national newspapers - Supporting Leave - 7.2 million; Supporting Remain- 1.8 million) The result of the referendum was “rigged” by a national press that overwhelmingly failed to provide readers with a balanced view of the reasons for remaining in the EU, or make serious attempts to explain the likely outcome of a Leave decision in a comprehensive or fair manner. The lack of balance was compounded by untruthful and misleading propaganda emanating from the Leave campaigners. Many thoughtful people who voted Leave last Thursday are now saying that they would have voted differently. It would be folly to base a Leave decision solely on the outcome of the non-legally-binding referendum, which at best provides a “snapshot” of voter opinions. Britain’s status as a unified country, its reputation in the global community, international strategic alliances, the wellbeing of younger and future generations, the continuance of thousands of EU-funded and enabled partnerships within Britain, the country’s economy, and the economies and stability of the other EU countries all hang in the balance. Parliament should now conduct serious debate. Triggering Article 50 (formal notice of intention to leave the EU) is not mandatory, and should only occur after an objective analysis of the consequences is available for scrutiny, and parliament determines that such a drastic step is in the best public and national interests.
7
I don't believe that people who voted to leave are now changing their minds 3 days later,that is a lie for sure.
Oh, for many it was less than a day. Not a lie at all.
1
Looks like there are ways to stall and work around the vote. Hope so.
3
I suppose this is the sort of picture that formed back when the Soviet Union began it's inexorable slide towards dissolution. Lots of fretting and gnashing of teeth. Umpteen socialist ideas for holding the socialist order together. All kinds recriminations among the party faithful. Crackerjack schemes for lining the masses up to follow the "new" old party line. Endless editorials declaring the socialist union to be immortal because it was so right in the first place. And so forth and so on, until the last commissar turned out the last flickering light.
1
We can always offer Britain statehood. Same GDP as California. The 51st state. Then we get back the companies that relocated HQ to Ireland and they get an NFL team.
3
Nice try, but Ireland hasn't been a part of Britain for some time.
The Liberal MSM and the believers in globalism and open borders are freaking out over Brexit. Suddenly, their delusional utopia of One World has shattered. Even the mass flow of over a million muslims flowing unimpeded into Europe seemed a perfectly acceptable event.
4
That's right, Jakers: You're right and everyone else is INSANE. Have a Gingrich day!
2
Jacob
Google "Luddite."
Then look in the mirror.
You might as well demand that we repeal the Law of Gravity. Progress happens, whether you approve or not.
BREXIT was not progress, as is becoming obvious if you follow the financial markets. Even the BREXIT proponents are now taking back their promises.
Google "Luddite."
Then look in the mirror.
You might as well demand that we repeal the Law of Gravity. Progress happens, whether you approve or not.
BREXIT was not progress, as is becoming obvious if you follow the financial markets. Even the BREXIT proponents are now taking back their promises.
3
Joe from Boston:
Really? You call immigrants flooding borders, dying in the process and overwhelming communities, "progress"? Sorry, but who's the Luddite here?
Really? You call immigrants flooding borders, dying in the process and overwhelming communities, "progress"? Sorry, but who's the Luddite here?
2
Business as usual in 2016 is dead or dying, not only in Britain but also in America and elsewhere. The handwriting is on the wall, and it clearly says that in this presidential election year the establishment candidate (Clinton the Second) will not win. The outcome will either be the advance of the American Dream (Sanders) or the abyss of an American nightmare (Trump). It's Bernie or Bust.
1
Buckeye
A poll out today says that 81% of us Bernie supporters will hold our noses and vote for Hillary. 8% of us will vote for Der Fuehrer Drumpf. I have no idea what the other 11% plan to do.
Me? I plan to hold my nose and vote straight ticket (D). Count on it.
A poll out today says that 81% of us Bernie supporters will hold our noses and vote for Hillary. 8% of us will vote for Der Fuehrer Drumpf. I have no idea what the other 11% plan to do.
Me? I plan to hold my nose and vote straight ticket (D). Count on it.
3
Brexit leaders leaders will not suffer but people will suffer because they did not think through and it is a lesson for general people of the whole world.
3
Kabuki theater? Indeed.
1
I interpret this vote as Brits not wanting decisions affecting their lives to be made by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Americans would not want to be in a similar situation. Britain was already maintaining the British pound instead of the Euro as its currency. The Times is getting this wrong and needs to back off with the fear mongering and hyperbole. The UK will be fine and will reach an arrangement with the EU.
6
The whole "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" meme is so much nonsense. Britain has just as much say in EU policy as any other member country, and those areas which voted most strongly to leave are precisely those areas which receive the most financial support from the EU. The vote to leave was clearly not a rational decision on the part of many.
Scotland is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They could try to Brexit. But then they'd lose the pound. And the euro is just a big problem for individual countries not named Germany.
North Sea oil belongs mostly to Scotland not England. England will lose taxes on on North Sea oil if Scotland leaves. This was a big concern back when Scotland wanted to break away from the UK. And EU officials warned Scotland that they would not be allowed in the EU if they broke away. That could well change now.
This is why direct democracy equals mobocracy, the dictatorship of an uneducated majority swayed by demagogues. The United Kingdom that gave the world Shakespeare, Newton and Dickens has been brought down by a coalition of the unscrupulous populists, left-wing anarchists trying to strike a blow against "global captalism", the lazy, the narrow-minded, the xenophobic and the old. If there are any rational politicians left, they should try to undo this disastrous vote. And next time you rail against the "elites", take a good look at what the wisdom of the common folk has brought you: Brexit and Trump.
5
It may be that people are not so stupid. They often vote on what makes sense given the facts they are presented. The problem is the facts are so often not facts at all.
11
Does anyone else love that there's a position in English politics called "the shadow foreign secretary?"
5
after the UK,not unlike the US failed to help with the refugee crisis, I doubt the rest of the EU feels it needs to cut a deal for Britain.
1
Given that this involves the UK, a soccer metaphor is in order. The British, as it were, have scored an "own goal."
3
The UK media is partly to blame but the EU has become very dysfunctional over the years. I'd have preferred UK to have remained in Europe its better if countries can work closely together. The referendum was extremely close with a 50:50 split. I think it caught a lot of people in the UK by surprise. I personally don't think the majority was large enough for the UK to break away from the EU and it needs to be reconsidered.
2
To Trump supporters here, please learn from the British vote in favor of the "Brexit" and almost instant buyers' remorse. Anger does not justify a wasted vote. Learn form other peoples mistake, do not repeat it.
6
The Brits need a doover.
1
Has there ever been a right-wing panacea that was thought through before it was committed to?
I can't think of any.
I can't think of any.
8
Ah yes, when the majority of the people have spoken as to what THEY want, it's described as a right-wing panacea. Maybe, just maybe, the Brits didn't want their country to be turned into a third world cesspool. Let's see how Germany fares, fifty years form now.
1
Is there a better example of short-sighted political chicanery when "vision" was needed? Of hubris when confident leadership was called for? Scotland will leave, Ireland will reunite, Gibraltar will revert to Spain; England and Wales will remain an insignificant fiefdom in an otherwise robust Europe. There is little good will left on which the Brits can draw from the other 27 European countries today; if they think they can do so, then add "stupidity" to the list.
7
I don't understand the enormous reluctance to ignore the "will of the people" as shown in this referendum: politicians do it ALL THE TIME! the most recent dems and repugs nonsense in the Congress for example. With 92% of the country wanting stricter gun control, the stupid Congress does nothing! Here in the US they are beholden to crates full of cash. If the UK Parliament decides to do the sensible thing and ignore Brexit, who are they beholden to besides the more sensible people in the country? Better that than the selfish, racists, careerists and dimwits who are leading UK off a cliff.
1
Constitutional rights are not a democratic issue.
1
Reading these articles reminds of how I feel when I have become really angry---the next day I always feel bad, both about the emotion and any actions I have taken to vent that anger. Sadly, on that next day, when you are apologizing or admitting to yourself how stupid you were, the reflection on anger reveals how little substance there was to what set you off.
7
Every once in a while, a country makes a spectacularly bad decision and suffers the predicted catastrophic results. Argentina has done it, and now it's England's turn. These serve as examples to the rest of the world not to do stupid things.
3
A referendum is not a horse race. 52% to 48% with half the public not even bothering to vote is hardly the will of the people. A vote where the majority of the voting public participates, and where at least 60% of the vote would be an event closer to the title, Will of the People. Cameron was a fool to even propose this "vote". I suggest a more serious and rigorous second vote happen within the next few days or weeks. This is a mess, but it can be fixed.
6
When you win 52-48, managing and changing the minds of those 48% is vital to moving forward. Acting like 52% is a mandate never works. Ask President Obama how that's worked out for him.
1
Didn't 72% of the population vote?
1
I read that they had a near 70% turnout.
1
I guess we're past the 72-hour penalty-free buyer's remorse period?
7
This whole affair demonstrates the problems of confusing the process used on a television show like 'Got Talent' with a reasonable political process. Sure, the leave campaign made lots of promises that they had not intention to keep. Sure, some leave campaigners, like Boris Johnson, were obviously more interested in personal political gain than actually leaving the EU. Still, it is fair to say that politicians are always prone to act that way. Voters hate the slow, grinding progress that a representative government makes (when it makes any at all), but many people need plenty of time to to recognize silly political promises as such.
2
One of my favorite sayings which my children will always remember is this "their are consequences for the things we say and do."
1
Not a surprise at all that the "leaders" on the Stay side are looking for any loophole that they can find to thwart the will of the people, it's exactly what the democrats do here. Heads I win tails you lose, to heck with the will of the people, unless of course it is behind whatever nanny state disastrous idea you have.
1
We will not decrease right to vote in the UK people. My congratulations to the british people know the decision.
2
The same stupid politicians and commentators who helped usher in the era of corporate globalism now think they can ease the turbulence of Brexis. They caused it. Now they are trying to minimize it. Turbulence is a good sign. It is a sign of change. The beast of corporatism does not die easily.
4
"... and many Britons wondering if there was a plausible way ..."
Q: shouldn't this read "... and many Britons wondering if there were a plausible ..."?
Q: shouldn't this read "... and many Britons wondering if there were a plausible ..."?
2
Once again, the will of a pleb of losers, narrow minded and disadvantaged is driving us to a lesser world; it's a litlle like sixteen hundred years ago with the imposition of Christianity…
1
Would that be the people of Greece? After all, no country has been a bigger drain on the EU, or provided a better reason to get out.
1
I suspect that those who voted for Brexit would like to reclaim their lost empire too. The sun set on that empire about 50 years ago. It appears to be setting on the mother country now, thanks to the Brexit outcome.
3
Great Britain and Europe have to grow up. The EU as currently constituted is insufficiently powerful--and insufficiently democratic. It is led by unelected bureaucrats on one hand, and yet has little Federal power to address issues like Greece and Portugal on the other. GB is right to attempt to step out. The result of this bold action will either be the rebirth of sovereign nations that can manage their own problems with all the necessary financial and legislative tools at their disposal, or through this crucible will be born a new and very strong Europe. A Europe that has true Federal powers and the tools to manage the continent properly. The status quo is untenable, even before Brexit. Bravo, Great Britain!
In the run-up to the referendum, David Cameron repeatedly said that this vote was a one-off. In is in and out is out. He also said that in case of a Leave, he would invoke Paragraph 50, triggering the "divorce", should the referendum favor the Leavers. This he did not do; he said he was leaving that little technicality for his successor. As the Day After progressed, it quickly became apparent what the Brexiters had set in motion: currency fall, the likely departure of Scotland, uncertainty of trade treaties etc. Johnson and Co. have boxed themselves in. Who now wants the responsibility of activating Paragraph 50 and irrevocably unleashing the fallout of leaving the EU? On the other hand, how are you going to mollify the 52% who voted to leave? in the meantime, Juncker and the EU are impatiently waiting to be served divorce papers so they can get on with things. There will be no negotiations about terms until those papers show up. So now, Boris, whatcha gonna do?
6
If Donald Trump thinks this is "fantastic" anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that this was a bad idea....a very bad idea and that once again, Trump has no idea what he is talking about. It seems that this campaign to leave the EU was partly led by another bloviating windbag with bad hair - Boris Johnson. Trump and Johnson - Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber.
5
There is only one benefit that I can see from this dumb decision. Next time my English friends go on about how stupid "you Americans" are, I will only have to say the word "Brexit" and they will shut right up.
7
A few thousand people, a small minority, decided this suicidal change of policy.
SO HAVE ANOTHER VOTE.
No need to upend the world.
SO HAVE ANOTHER VOTE.
No need to upend the world.
4
Sounds like a plan. If the vote comes out the "right" way. accept it. If it doesn't, take a mulligan. Let's do that in the U.S. too.
4
So they just keep voting until they agree with you? Such hubris. This is a great country of many centuries with smart people who deserve to forge their own destiny.
2
People have a right to reconsider the ramifications of a mistake.
I would have voted against, but the many who voted for are having real regrets.
I would have voted against, but the many who voted for are having real regrets.
2
It looks like Brexit was exploited by Tory Euroskeptics to overthrow David Cameron. How else would you explain the fact that neither Gove nor Johnson wants to invoke rule no 50 that would begin the process of separation from the EU. They are sitting pretty, with the David Cameron gone and Labor party in disarray. They know that Scotland will never vote for independence until the Tories actually begin the process of separation. I was listening to David Davis during the vote counting process, and he hinted as much. Once Cameron made the mistake of promising a referendum on EU membership to co-opt the UKIP message during the elections of 2015, the xenophobic wing of the Tory party saw their chance and seized it. In the process, the voters got played. I hope this fiasco stays in public memory for a long time, and restrains them from trying to vote in utopia in the future. Message for us: do not decide on the nation's future on a referendum! But then we have already learned that lesson from California.
5
Well, here's the hangover. How about "Bregretzit"...?
Keep calm and keep voting.
5
Make America Great Again....Just like the men who have now made Britain ...uh..great again? Buyer beware.
8
Blah blah blah NYT commenters. Brexit is a victory for self determination over corporate globalism. Now the economic global forces will attack the UK to create a recession and a do-over vote based on fear. Stand fast England. Scotland should withdraw and see if the EU will support those losers.
5
The chaos within the parties is clearly the result of the fact that large parts of the electorate have been ignored. When parties turn inward and pursue their own narrow agendas, rather than listen to and work for their members, they fail to adjust to the changing mood of the people. This can only go on so long until the schism grows too wide and results in a collapse.
The DEMs and the GOP are experiencing the same dynamic. Trump and Sanders were a wake up call. The question is, will the leaders wake up in time?
The DEMs and the GOP are experiencing the same dynamic. Trump and Sanders were a wake up call. The question is, will the leaders wake up in time?
54
Actually, they haven't been ignored. They've been pandered and lied to. The Republican Party, far from ignoring the White middle and lower classes, has manipulated their ill-informed fears and overweening sense of pride in order to avoid acknowledging having thrown them under the bus of profit and globalization. Ignored? No. Just used by their leaders and still unwilling to admit it.
2
"Will the leaders wake-up in time?" That is the big question, here in the States. Unfortunately, I don't see anything positive coming from the Republican Party, as they have worked a plan of exclusion and fear mongering (e.g., suppression of voter turnout, be afraid of people who are different from you...) for so many decades now. Sadly, the Democratic Party has failed to counter these scare tactics with a lucid plan to advance the country regarding economic and social complexities. I only hope Hillary Clinton (and the leadership of the Democratic Party) is wise enough to see what is facing the country as a whole, and is able to articulate a plan that serves to address the real issues at hand. Can this be accomplished by November?
1
The way our government is structured, we are supposed to change our representatives to fit our "moods" by voting in new people to work for us.
My country has committed suicide. It is a nightmare from which I cannot awake. Americans,save yourselves form this populist madness.
10
Now I understand why there are super delegates. It's to prevent the voting masses from voting themselves over a cliff. This Brexit fiasco should have been voted on in a process similar to the way we, here in America, amend our constitution, not in the heat of a single referendum vote, but in a parliamentary fashion.
5
UK will remain a useful ally of the USA. Unfortunately it will not be able to spy on top EU summits for the NSA as it did in the past. This is extremely regrettable indeed. The USA lose their trojan horse inside the EU.
2
NYT = chicken little. The sky is not falling. De facto England remains part of Europe, a fact too old and stubborn to evaporate overnight. It just is no longer part of the EU.
4
There is nothing binding about this referendum. Britain is still part of the EU, and will likely remain so given the comments expressed by most leaders of the leave campaign..
1
Whether in England, France, Germany or the US, it is clear that there is a global problem of worsening inequality in the wake of worldwide free trade. By building virtual walls, the Brexit purported to solve it. The immediate after shows that we are too connected to believe that such a simplistic move could work. Let's hope the Brext vote does what it should and drive change to address the problem vs. focus on the proposed solution as the only way to do so.
4
What would George Orwell say about Airstrip One opting out of Eurasia?
5
This enormous mess that is Brexit was not only predictable but will probably be repeated in other incarnations in other industrialized nations as we move inevitably toward true globalization of economies, cultures and political structures and trigger fear in some. It seems that in the UK those over 50 are fearing a declining quality of life at a time when they have no ability to change life paths to adapt to the new world economy. Those in their 20s and 30s clearly see the benefits of globalization in expanded life choices (where to live, study, travel, work). What is sad is that Brexit will not stop the move toward globalization, but will simply leave the UK behind in a stunted isolated state. Is this the idealized period to which the "leaves" want to return? Sorry to say, their ideal does not exist. What does exist is an enormous opportunity to level the playing field for people around the world to share in the benefits of the world economy by owning a home, educating their children, getting adequate health care and perhaps even experiencing a brief retirement. In order for this to happen, those of over-50s in the industrialized world (as I am) will have to experience some uncertainty and possibly even a slight decline in financial standing, but what an enormous gain for those in developing nations who are willing to work hard to enjoy what we lucky few in wealthy nations have been able to enjoy for so very long.
4
Let us assume that the Brexit vote was a trial balloon to assess the consequences that may occur. Now that we know how ill prepared Britain was to Brexit, it is time the prodigal member of EU returns to the fold by taking another referendum whether Britain should return to EU call it BRETURN. Such a return could negotiate to define a new relationship for the future eg Britain can say no to unregulated and unvetted entry of immigrants/refigees/jobseekers and other Europeans into Britain and the stifling rules that threaten British independence could be changed and the EU CAN REFORM. The Brexit supporters have made a serious point but now is not the time to do and die. Now is the time to question why? Why Brexit and what could reverse some of the adverse effects of Brexit but at the same time eliminating the disadvantages of Bremain. I call on the British leaders on both sides of the Brexit vote to rise to the occasion and not run around like chickens with their heads cut off. It has reached the stage of chicken little and the sky is falling not just overcast with uncertainty. May be the British monarchy and the queen should call on the nation to save the pound from taking further pounding and the U.K. from a worsening economic tsunami that is having a domino effect globally.
3
You are so right. Britain needs to take a deep breath and carry on. No need to rush based on one referendum.
1
Britain's implosion was predictable to the 'stay' voters: Britain is now in political crisis. The bitter irony for Brexiters is that, contrary to their aim of reducing Germany's influence over their political and economic life, Germany has now become even stronger and will dominate Europe. Already housing prices in Frankfurt have shot up in anticipation that it will replace London as Europe's financial centre.
Scotland and Ireland will declare independence and leave 'Great' Britain smaller than it has been in centuries. No wonder Cameron resigned. He fought against the looming disaster and certainly wasn't willing to clean up the resulting mess. Boris Johnson, the overgrown, self-publicizing schoolboy, will not be smiling for long as the results of his mischief become apparent.
Scotland and Ireland will declare independence and leave 'Great' Britain smaller than it has been in centuries. No wonder Cameron resigned. He fought against the looming disaster and certainly wasn't willing to clean up the resulting mess. Boris Johnson, the overgrown, self-publicizing schoolboy, will not be smiling for long as the results of his mischief become apparent.
5
As this and companion stories remind us the Brexit vote is an ongoing catastrophe in the making that is built on eerily familiar misrepresentations, lies, ignorance, falsely based fears, mindless hate based solutions, and just plain stupidity as Donald Trump has used to drive his own campaign in America.
Trump, never one to think before engaging mouth, was quick to take credit for the Brexit vote, even triumphing that the fall in the pound would increase revenues at his golf club (without bothering to mention that it has decreased the value of his club by nearly 9%).
With Trump now owning the chaos of Brexit, hopefully Americans will have the good sense to realize you want Trump having the influence of the Presidency over your government and economy is like wishing to be struck down by the plague.
In a sense, by their sacrifice maybe our friends in Britain did us a great favor by giving us a glimpse into the future before its too late.
Trump, never one to think before engaging mouth, was quick to take credit for the Brexit vote, even triumphing that the fall in the pound would increase revenues at his golf club (without bothering to mention that it has decreased the value of his club by nearly 9%).
With Trump now owning the chaos of Brexit, hopefully Americans will have the good sense to realize you want Trump having the influence of the Presidency over your government and economy is like wishing to be struck down by the plague.
In a sense, by their sacrifice maybe our friends in Britain did us a great favor by giving us a glimpse into the future before its too late.
5
From the perspective of this USA citizen, the Brexit doesn't rattle me much. I have ancestral ties to many countries in Europe, Britain included. That affection remains. There is something so very special about Europe, Britain included.
Ironically, as damagins as this Brexit vote is for the UK internally, the real damage is on a more meta, global scale, as I write here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/brexit-heralds-end-positive-era-possible-...
Thank you Britain! What a wonderful lesson to be learned, although you have unfortunately choosen the really hard way to learn this. This comes about once you drop common sense, disregard the experts, even denounce them as scaremongers and decide to follow the circuswaggon until it drops over the cliff. It is a great way to realize for everybody else, here in the States, as well for the rest of Europe and the world, that the right wing forces screaming "foul" have just that: only the ability to scream loud and in foul, xenophobic, condescending fashion. Once they have to face the music, you realize that the ilk like Nigel Farrage or Boris Johnson in this case, have only silence to offer, but no plan, no concept, plain nothing. Somebody to press an issue of this magnitude with nothing in hand to show for afterwards, just shows the complete ineptitude of the leave campaigners.
It is great to scream loudest in a campaign against immigration, "Freedom"
(never notice that any Brits were shackled, when I was there), outright lies and deceptions ( see the 350 million a week lie), but no substance beyond that.
This is the lesson we (hopefully) all learned from Brexit: If you follow the tune of the rat catcher, you're in for trouble....
It is great to scream loudest in a campaign against immigration, "Freedom"
(never notice that any Brits were shackled, when I was there), outright lies and deceptions ( see the 350 million a week lie), but no substance beyond that.
This is the lesson we (hopefully) all learned from Brexit: If you follow the tune of the rat catcher, you're in for trouble....
8
the only ones wanting to have another vote, are the same ones that LOST the first one...
problem is only, ALL OF BRITAIN LOST
2
"But both Britain and the European Union have a tradition of muddling through crises and finding compromises to avoid the worst outcomes."
A good lesson the United States would do well to learn
A good lesson the United States would do well to learn
1
Britain's vote to leave the EU is self-inflicted causing unintended repercussions shaking this country and sending shockwaves globally. Corresponding to the depth of the wound will be the degree of challenges Britain finds itself in the future. May Britain find its' footing again.
1
This Brexit disaster should have been worked into the finish of Downton Abbey. Yes, it was a beautiful show in terms of scenery, one-liners, and reflections of the good old days of the rich but it was immensely boring in that the UK's future-of-then, right in front of our eyes, was dying. What the Brits have done last week was identical to that show, they let us see what England was all about and could be while letting us all see the process of suicide. It is not that Brexit won but rather that the UK showed its inner desire to kill itself - A very sad country.
3
Britain should negotiate the terms of withdrawal from the EU under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty while in parallel hold a referendum on rejoining the EU under Article 49 of the Lisbon Treaty. Article 49 of the Lisbon Treaty deals with the procedure for any countries wanting to join the EU, whether they have previously been members or not. This way the Brits can rectify a mistake of historical proportions legally and democratically.
1
for the second guessers on the Isle ... discovery of balloting irregularities in numerous locations would provide basis for a rerun .. too obvious ????
Poe hidings ..... in TRUTH .. no organization of present form seems capable of
dealing with situations that have become or are rapidly becoming as those which are beyond correction... a saviour is overdue
Poe hidings ..... in TRUTH .. no organization of present form seems capable of
dealing with situations that have become or are rapidly becoming as those which are beyond correction... a saviour is overdue
1
The British people have spoken and they want to leave the EU. This is the majority wish of the British citizens and they have made the correct decision. Maybe now the politicians will take them seriously and pay attention to the English born people and worry less about immigrants who do not participate in British life. All they want are jobs and free benefits at the citizens expense. The Brits said enough is enough and this displays democracy at work. Good luck to the English.
2
Stocks down 1% this morning. Let's have more chaos. And make it hurt. Especially for that stupid, stupid git at Number 10, who still thinks he can call his own departure.
1
A decision of this magnitude should never have been decided by a simple majority. Knowing that it would be close call it was possible to predict considerable civic strife in its wake. Foolish. A difference of 4% does not constitute a margin of victory that allows for statements like "the will of British people has been expressed".
In 2004 Bush II won by 3% and thought he had "political capital" to spend; we see where that went.
In 2004 Bush II won by 3% and thought he had "political capital" to spend; we see where that went.
4
If a jury arrives at a guilty verdict based on what turns out to have been deliberate lies, baseless innuendo, and carefully crafted falsehoods by the prosecution team, then the chances are good that that said verdict will, quite rightly, be set aside on appeal, allowing both sides to have do-over. And what rational person wouldn't wish that that had been possible with the Iraq war once the Neo-cons' blatant lies about WMD's and Saddam complicity in 9/11 had been exposed?
Fortunately, with enough will, courage, and procedural creativity, the British people -- many of whom now realize what a calamitous mistake they made in believing the 'Leave' team's propaganda -- still have a chance to set aside their verdict and have a do-over. Let's hope, for all our sakes, that they do.
Fortunately, with enough will, courage, and procedural creativity, the British people -- many of whom now realize what a calamitous mistake they made in believing the 'Leave' team's propaganda -- still have a chance to set aside their verdict and have a do-over. Let's hope, for all our sakes, that they do.
2
Ultimately it is the best lesson what NOT to do.
3
A 52-48 split is not a "decisive" vote. "Clear" and "decisive" are not synonymous. To make such a wide-ranging set of changes in the lives of millions of people on such a narrow margin borders on criminal negligence.
Cameron's decision to run a referendum with no fall-back in the case of a tight result is a mark of his complete failure as a leader. We now have a sad succession of UK prime ministers who've left office in disgrace: Blair, Brown, and Cameron. Not long before them, they had that paragon of tyranny, Margaret Thatcher.
Americans who pontificate about the will of the people should ask why Rupert Murdoch's empire was so prominent in the "leave" campaign. Yes, that man, whose paper "The News of the World" closed in scandal; that man who gave America Roger Ailes and Fox.
Cameron's decision to run a referendum with no fall-back in the case of a tight result is a mark of his complete failure as a leader. We now have a sad succession of UK prime ministers who've left office in disgrace: Blair, Brown, and Cameron. Not long before them, they had that paragon of tyranny, Margaret Thatcher.
Americans who pontificate about the will of the people should ask why Rupert Murdoch's empire was so prominent in the "leave" campaign. Yes, that man, whose paper "The News of the World" closed in scandal; that man who gave America Roger Ailes and Fox.
10
It's time for Queen Elizabeth II to step forward to unite the nation, by exercising her political powers, which are available in times of crises, when the country is in a political paralysis. She still has her influence over the Parliament. In this particular case, she has her right and responsibility to "grant assent to bills from Parliament, signing them into law. Whilst, in theory, she could decide to refuse assent, the last Monarch to do this was Queen Anne in 1708." Among her other powers, she can appoint and sack a prime minister.
Last Thursday's referendum is not legally binding, and the Parliament still has the sovereignty to respond and act according to its lawmakers' deliberations.
Last Thursday's referendum is not legally binding, and the Parliament still has the sovereignty to respond and act according to its lawmakers' deliberations.
4
A couple of interesting things about your comment:
A) you're commenting from a country that is conspicuously not in the EU, which leads me to think that like yourself, perhaps, Switzerland gains well from the EU while not having to take part and give like any standard team member.
and
B) Your comment regarding the Queen's power and function does not point out her age and her possible lack of wherewithal in dealing with these matters. One of the primary reasons why we no longer allow for monarchy's in most countries. If she gave a decree or two regarding these matters would the citizens believe that it was coming from her or she was pressed into by a cadre from White Hall?
A) you're commenting from a country that is conspicuously not in the EU, which leads me to think that like yourself, perhaps, Switzerland gains well from the EU while not having to take part and give like any standard team member.
and
B) Your comment regarding the Queen's power and function does not point out her age and her possible lack of wherewithal in dealing with these matters. One of the primary reasons why we no longer allow for monarchy's in most countries. If she gave a decree or two regarding these matters would the citizens believe that it was coming from her or she was pressed into by a cadre from White Hall?
2
Efforts to nullify the Brexit vote smack of utmost cynicism and contempt for democratic processes. Cameron and Corbyn are birds of the same feather, neo-imperialists panting to do the US's bidding in a re-started Cold War. The issue here is what best underpins NATO as its forces occupy the Russian border. The EU is more than a trading bloc, hence, the deep concern in the US military and intelligence communities over exit.
For the first time since WWII, Britain has got out from under US influence. The problem is, it has no one to lead, whether Conservative or Labour, in fashioning a Third Force in international politics.
The doctrine of permanent war is locked into the ideological mindset of the West. America is discomfited. America's geostrategic jump from stabilizing Europe to its benefit will now be partially checked as well in seeking the containment of China. Perhaps a China-Britain rapprochement is vitally needed to preserve world peace, Europe and America gnashing their teeth in the process.
The victor in Brexit is the world's peoples, a temporary respite in the onward march of the West's death machine. Capitalism is centrally at issue, yet few have the courage to publicly identify it as of paramount concern.
For the first time since WWII, Britain has got out from under US influence. The problem is, it has no one to lead, whether Conservative or Labour, in fashioning a Third Force in international politics.
The doctrine of permanent war is locked into the ideological mindset of the West. America is discomfited. America's geostrategic jump from stabilizing Europe to its benefit will now be partially checked as well in seeking the containment of China. Perhaps a China-Britain rapprochement is vitally needed to preserve world peace, Europe and America gnashing their teeth in the process.
The victor in Brexit is the world's peoples, a temporary respite in the onward march of the West's death machine. Capitalism is centrally at issue, yet few have the courage to publicly identify it as of paramount concern.
2
The sheep here are autocrats, declaring the British public too ignorant to make its own collective decisions of national importance.
Vote again, they say. And apparently keep on voting until they "get it right". Then the voting will stop.
No wonder the unwashed masses have such contempt for their elitist leaders.
Vote again, they say. And apparently keep on voting until they "get it right". Then the voting will stop.
No wonder the unwashed masses have such contempt for their elitist leaders.
3
Britain should join NAFTA, recast as a North Atlantic Free Trade Area, and operate as its bridgehead into Europe. A natural outcome. Mutually profitable. History-oriented. Quite interesting to all concerned, including France and Germany. Let Scotland take its course within the E.U. and make Adrian's Wall a great bargaining fair, the feverish interface of both big blocs.
1
The hilarious part of all this is the fact that the areas of Britain that voted to 'Leave' are the areas that receive the most subsidies from the EU. Shades of the US South voting against their own economic interests... of course, at least the Brits aren't dumb enough to do that over and over and over, as the US South does.
5
There's nothing hilarious about it. The sadness in both situations is that the bureaucracies of the Northern states and the EU is the reason why these regions have such needs.
Jeremy Corbin is the only major political figure in the U.K. to favor nationalizing the big banks. His continued leadership is essential fotrBritain's march to Democratic Socialism. His Labour Party opponents belong in some capitalist party.
1
"Round up the usual suspects!"
I Skyped with an Australian friend in Thailand, tonight, and both of us being former residents of the United Kingdom, we commiserated about Brexit, and the losses in our offshore savings accounts. But when he and I tried to come up with things Britain produces that would put it in a position of strength when negotiating, we didn't get very far, beyond pickled eggs, Marmite and Oxo, none of which fall in the "culinary delights" category the French are so good at. British Panda cars are made by Germans, British limousines by Indians, even the old standby Boots is now American, and those excellent British programmers all moved to New York in the Thatcher era. If y'all now additionally lose the ability to export New Zealand lamb to France, I think the straits may be diring.
3
1. Cameron should have never announced the referendum--perhaps the biggest blunder in modern British history, and perhaps the end of British unity on the isles.
2. A referendum generally is a terrible idea in an advanced democracy. Direct democracy results in mob rule.
3. The only thing worse than calling the referendum would be ignoring the result and organizing another one. I can't believe, or rather I can believe but am stunned that the youth of Britain, the left, and Londoners are trying to pretend the vote didn't happen, suggesting holding more referenda or even abandoning the promised outcome of the one they just had.
4. The notion that Scotland could block the result of the vote from being implemented because of a last ditch effort to reinterpret the unwritten British constitution and the Scottish grant of autonomy is the most undemocratic of all the suggestions mentioned in this article.
5. The way forward isn't to backpedal, try to hide or alter the referendum results, or rename and revote on issues. Just implement the will of the people--nothing less but nothing more. That last part is the most important. This was a vote to leave a single, solitary, behemoth of an institution that is not a country and has nebulous powers. It wasn't a vote to "leave Europe". There doesn't need to be acrimony. Britain should leave the EU but be vigorous and active in all other European institutions to which it belongs. In a few years they could rejoin.
2. A referendum generally is a terrible idea in an advanced democracy. Direct democracy results in mob rule.
3. The only thing worse than calling the referendum would be ignoring the result and organizing another one. I can't believe, or rather I can believe but am stunned that the youth of Britain, the left, and Londoners are trying to pretend the vote didn't happen, suggesting holding more referenda or even abandoning the promised outcome of the one they just had.
4. The notion that Scotland could block the result of the vote from being implemented because of a last ditch effort to reinterpret the unwritten British constitution and the Scottish grant of autonomy is the most undemocratic of all the suggestions mentioned in this article.
5. The way forward isn't to backpedal, try to hide or alter the referendum results, or rename and revote on issues. Just implement the will of the people--nothing less but nothing more. That last part is the most important. This was a vote to leave a single, solitary, behemoth of an institution that is not a country and has nebulous powers. It wasn't a vote to "leave Europe". There doesn't need to be acrimony. Britain should leave the EU but be vigorous and active in all other European institutions to which it belongs. In a few years they could rejoin.
"2. A referendum generally is a terrible idea in an advanced democracy. Direct democracy results in mob rule."
Exactly the opinion of our founders. That's why the US is not a democracy but a constitutional representative republic. The people may democratically vote for those who represent them in government but the representatives vote for what is best for the nation as a whole. It aggravates those who voted for them but this governing isn't about what one person thinks on any subject.
Exactly the opinion of our founders. That's why the US is not a democracy but a constitutional representative republic. The people may democratically vote for those who represent them in government but the representatives vote for what is best for the nation as a whole. It aggravates those who voted for them but this governing isn't about what one person thinks on any subject.
1
The world will miss Samantha!
1
Let's face it: when all those areas in England that strongly supported LEAVE realize how much EU investment they are losing, they will probably join the REMAIN supporters in calling for another vote.
Perhaps the Scots will come to the rescue by reasonably arguing that Brexit cannot take place without their approval.
I have the feeling the LEAVE champions like Boris Johnson might end up being pariahs in their own country.
Perhaps the Scots will come to the rescue by reasonably arguing that Brexit cannot take place without their approval.
I have the feeling the LEAVE champions like Boris Johnson might end up being pariahs in their own country.
5
"Let's face it: when all those areas in England that strongly supported LEAVE realize how much EU investment they are losing, they will probably join the REMAIN supporters in calling for another vote."
The areas that voted to leave were those receiving the least benefit from the EU membership.
The areas that voted to leave were those receiving the least benefit from the EU membership.
One of the numerous fractures revealed in the voting process was generational, with many pensioners voting overwhelmingly to leave, and young people voting to remain. One way to remedy the situation while the nation figures out how to get its act together might be to raid the pensions to establish a fund intended to protect the college and job prospects of the young from the inevitable fallout of this foolish decision.
3
O my, you'r so to the point!
You've nailed it. The people wanting to stay were the college educated in the large cities like the man worrying about whether he can still enter a study program in Romania and more worried that he may have to pay for it out of pocket.
In the countryside they live on Job Seekers Benefits in substandard council housing if they can get it. Nothing will propel people down the slide to immorality than not having a meaningful decent paying job. That would explain why these regions have the highest rates of births to unmarried women between 18 and 25, the highest STI rate in the EU, and the highest levels of drunkenness and illegal drug use.
That ought to look familiar since it most closely resembles our inner cities.
In the countryside they live on Job Seekers Benefits in substandard council housing if they can get it. Nothing will propel people down the slide to immorality than not having a meaningful decent paying job. That would explain why these regions have the highest rates of births to unmarried women between 18 and 25, the highest STI rate in the EU, and the highest levels of drunkenness and illegal drug use.
That ought to look familiar since it most closely resembles our inner cities.
"Changing the situation" requires a law, and lawmakers are elected by voters. Since old people votes much more diligently, perhaps they should change the voting rules, say, you multiply each vote by the age of the voter, to make gerontocracy official. The experienced were for Brexit, and the feckless young for Remain (but mostly, "do not care").
Seems as though the sun is finally setting on the British empire.
I believe some sort of globalization is virtually unavoidable nowadays, and the referendum to exit the EU should not be interpreted as a complete rejection to the idea of globalization. It should rather be viewed as a move by Britons trying to define the kind of globalization they want. Should their globalization policy be confined within the economic sector, or should it include political/military sectors. It appears to me that a lot of Britons are not satisfied with the political policies undertaken by the EU, so confining globalization to a free trading agreement may be a more pragmatic pathway for UK. The clash between nationalism and globalism is not a zero sum game. The solution lies somewhere in between.
I also don't think we in America are experienced enough to educate Britons on this matter. The kind of globalization we practice is only about free trade and free flow of capital. We seldom worry about adopting rules forced upon us by some international organizations: we always come up with our own set of rules and globalize them onto other countries.
I also don't think we in America are experienced enough to educate Britons on this matter. The kind of globalization we practice is only about free trade and free flow of capital. We seldom worry about adopting rules forced upon us by some international organizations: we always come up with our own set of rules and globalize them onto other countries.
47
Indeed I don't see why UK could not simply join the equivalence of EEA in the past era for a European "common" market for trading purpose, rather than the "single" market that everyone these days seem to think is the ONLY way to go. Why should every country surrender all sovereignty rights just so that those in Brussels (spending hundreds of millions in Euro per year in admin costs alone) decide on who should be winners and who should be losers within a 28 (now 27) member states bloc? Had it not been Thatcher vigorously negotiated rebates from EC back then, all while keeping GBP alive, there won't even be a UK to speak of who can still make a choice on their own destiny.
Has anyone ever draw a lesson from the Greece debacle?
Enough said.
Has anyone ever draw a lesson from the Greece debacle?
Enough said.
1
.. add to this, the leaders did not and still do not know, how to deal with job losses, how to provide alternate equal paying jobs to those who lost it. easy to say, that there will be winners and losers. but losers are also part of the community, and it appears that winners are gaining at the expense of their own countrymen. that is not fair.
Its easy to say Britain should get out of the EU as quickly as possible and obey the will of the people. However, this is an extremely difficult time-consuming task that will necessarily require damaging all of the UK's interests. The UK will have to form new trade deals with the EU, the USA, while having less leverage. It will also have to adopt all new sorts of regulation. In short, this is too important and difficult to do quickly.
The "Brexiters" exaggerated the costs of being in the EU. The Brits saving 350m/wk, being free from EU regulations, and solving the immigration issues were not factual at all.
When you count in the grant and subsidies the figures actually comes down to 150m/wk. And I am sure the Brits will have to spend more than 150m/wk because of their devalued currency and not being able to free trade with EU as a single bloc market. The regulations that they were so vexed about, they will have to abide by it if they want to trade with EU. And most of those regulations would have been there even if they weren't in the EU.
50.5% of the immigrants were from non EU nations. So Even if they stopped migrants from EU countries, they would still have 180,000 migrants coming in next year.
I am not saying staying in EU had no negatives for the British people. But thinking that leaving EU will solve all these problems is just nonsensical.
When you count in the grant and subsidies the figures actually comes down to 150m/wk. And I am sure the Brits will have to spend more than 150m/wk because of their devalued currency and not being able to free trade with EU as a single bloc market. The regulations that they were so vexed about, they will have to abide by it if they want to trade with EU. And most of those regulations would have been there even if they weren't in the EU.
50.5% of the immigrants were from non EU nations. So Even if they stopped migrants from EU countries, they would still have 180,000 migrants coming in next year.
I am not saying staying in EU had no negatives for the British people. But thinking that leaving EU will solve all these problems is just nonsensical.
2
Ignores the effect of cheaper exports.
Here, Britain imports more than it exports, so no joy there.
Any change that creates uncertainty increases risk. Increasing risk causes market value of capital assets to decline until the uncertainty is resolved. No surprises there.
The establishment, to discourage a leave vote, tried to scare the public of dire consequences. President Obama went so far to state that in trade negotiations with the USA, Britain would go to "the end of the line".
The establishment went too far, and is now believing its own propaganda of the exit vote causing the end of the world. Remember, it is the Establishment itself which drives the markets.
The establishment, to discourage a leave vote, tried to scare the public of dire consequences. President Obama went so far to state that in trade negotiations with the USA, Britain would go to "the end of the line".
The establishment went too far, and is now believing its own propaganda of the exit vote causing the end of the world. Remember, it is the Establishment itself which drives the markets.
4
This headline shows the complete misunderstanding of the authors of how parliamentary democracy works. There is no void. The leader is not like the president. He is not a head of state. He is first among his peers. Cameron has said he will step down so others are now competing for his job. Like any election, they will attack one another. Similarly, the Labour party members are seeking to rid themselves of Corbyn. He will survive or there will be a convention.
Enough already NYT with this " the sky is falling" Your agenda reporting is getting tiresome. Some balanced news please. It is this elitist lack of respect for others that has propelled these votes in the first place.
Enough already NYT with this " the sky is falling" Your agenda reporting is getting tiresome. Some balanced news please. It is this elitist lack of respect for others that has propelled these votes in the first place.
6
More than anything, the vote divided the country.
2
Politicians all have so many enemies that they forget to watch out for the one they should really worry about. The one in the mirror! Clearly all involved either overplayed or unplayed their hands to advance themselves and their party. They all lost and their country and their constituents will bear the brunt of the pain for years to come.
1
Ah, chaos, a promise of things to come for us, if Donny T gets in. Life in a Donny T White House, the subject of playwright Dick Weber's ribald romp AW, DONNY! … a haunted Halloween with the orange-haired one leaves an indelible impression, far more lasting / more powerful than any overpriced TV-airtime oppo ad. Wake up, Priorities USA, time to get much bolder & more imaginative.
1
Three months from now none of the three most prominent Brits named in this article will be in a leadership position either within their party or in the government. David Cameron will be resigning as PM and perhaps eventually as MP. Jeremy Corbyn is facing a major revolt from other top Labour Party leaders. They believe his leadership on Brexit and other issues has been weak. They see an opportunity to make gains in the next election, but not with an uncharismatic, old style Fabian. Boris Johnson has charisma, of a sort. But he has been a gadfly most of his journalistic and political careers, easily making enemies. He bucked his party leadership on Brexit for political gain while alienating immigrant constituencies. Before and after the vote Johnson tried to backtrack his Brexit rhetoric by professing love for immigration and immigrants. Too late. The next PM's major task will be to keep the UK intact. The Conservative Party cannot keep both Scotland and Northern Ireland as part of the UK with a PM who was the most prominent leader of the Brexit fiasco. Other groups that voted to stay in the EU, the London elites and the millennials, also detest Johnson. Brexit may prove to have destroyed the careers of its three leading political figures.
In 1975, UK referendumed to stay in the UK, and stay they did without further fuss. Therefore legal precedent is clear, there can be no "negotiating" a yes/no referendum.
Never mind precedent, here is what Cameron in his capacity as Prime Minister said less than a week ago:
" There is no going back."
""If we vote out, that’s it. It is irreversible. We will leave Europe – for good."
See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-lates...
All of which make the say-it-ain't-so-over-my-body foot-dragging remarkably perilous to those engaging in it. At the very least, it would be a fraud on the electorate, who, doubtless would respond again in full force if Boris is prevented from implementing Brexit. Meaning they would deliver a thumping victory to pro-Brexit in an early election, should one be necessary.
The question now is not whether Boris will proceed full-speed on Brexit, but how many internal obstacles are thrown his way, including obviously mischievous rumors over him demurring. If that leads to an early election, all the better, he'll win thumping on the sole grounds he hasn't committed a fraud against the electorate. And with it, the moral, legal, and ethical authority to get on with it.
Which, by the way, is also Trump's appeal: "you ain't seen nothing yet (because I wasn't there)". A bumpy road but betcha Brexit is happening, and sooner rather than later. Pip-pip.
Never mind precedent, here is what Cameron in his capacity as Prime Minister said less than a week ago:
" There is no going back."
""If we vote out, that’s it. It is irreversible. We will leave Europe – for good."
See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-lates...
All of which make the say-it-ain't-so-over-my-body foot-dragging remarkably perilous to those engaging in it. At the very least, it would be a fraud on the electorate, who, doubtless would respond again in full force if Boris is prevented from implementing Brexit. Meaning they would deliver a thumping victory to pro-Brexit in an early election, should one be necessary.
The question now is not whether Boris will proceed full-speed on Brexit, but how many internal obstacles are thrown his way, including obviously mischievous rumors over him demurring. If that leads to an early election, all the better, he'll win thumping on the sole grounds he hasn't committed a fraud against the electorate. And with it, the moral, legal, and ethical authority to get on with it.
Which, by the way, is also Trump's appeal: "you ain't seen nothing yet (because I wasn't there)". A bumpy road but betcha Brexit is happening, and sooner rather than later. Pip-pip.
2
Nobody really wanted to leave the EU, or they did not know the consequences. Johnson is a an opportunistic moron, and is now backtracking!
3
Anything that goes against the NYT elitist, liberal point of view, even a democratic vote, is the work of unenlightened individuals who don't know any better. Right, got it.
6
Another Times article, "Some 'Brexit' Campaigners Begin Backpedaling" is an apt description for the Trump campaign specifically and the national Republican campaigns in general, as unsupported claims, easily refuted statistics, and outright lies form the basis of fear campaigns holding out the hope for the Garden of Eden, often created by messianic promises.
If America succumbs to such naive fear and self-deluding hopes, it will elect Trump in November, with consequences foreshadowed by events currently evolving in Great Britain.
If America succumbs to such naive fear and self-deluding hopes, it will elect Trump in November, with consequences foreshadowed by events currently evolving in Great Britain.
4
What could Mr. Cameron have been thinking of? There was no need to call this misbegotten election. He was not required to do so. There was nothing to be gained by calling it and little to be lost by not calling it.
Mr. Cameron, by not demonstrating the leadership capacity to walk away from a dumb promise, has set forces in motion the end results of which are likely to be truly catastrophic for the world economy.
If there are any provisions in English law similar to the common schoolyard practice of resolving disputed plays in ball games
with “takeovers,” the time to invoke them is today.
Mr. Cameron, by not demonstrating the leadership capacity to walk away from a dumb promise, has set forces in motion the end results of which are likely to be truly catastrophic for the world economy.
If there are any provisions in English law similar to the common schoolyard practice of resolving disputed plays in ball games
with “takeovers,” the time to invoke them is today.
2
Promises are commitments to be kept. Regardless of Cameron's intent in promising the referendum and not following through would have cost the Tories years of being the minority party.
1
Yes I know that the Queen is 90 years old, and that it would be a complete violation of modern English practice, but today is also the day when she should be telling her people that Brexit is a snare and a delusion.
She may be the only person in England capable of convincing her countrymen to abandon this folly.
She may be the only person in England capable of convincing her countrymen to abandon this folly.
1
I'm laughing at how NYT removed the entire comments section for another Brexit article on here. What's the matter, can't handle people calling you out on subpar journalism? Your readers called you out on the hysteria and melodrama, take it with dignity.
How ironic that the "Leave" camp was accused of fearmongering on the issue of immigration when the entire media is screaming how Brexit is practically the end of Europe!
How ironic that the "Leave" camp was accused of fearmongering on the issue of immigration when the entire media is screaming how Brexit is practically the end of Europe!
6
This is turning into a considerable FUBAR. The huge lies told by the Leave campaigners to persuade voters to leave are already being disavowed by the leaders of the Leave campaign. Johnson and Gove the two most prominent conservative leave proponents have essentially gone into hiding and are avoiding the media. The Labour opposition is disintegrating. Scotland is demanding a re-run of the independence referendum. Leave campaigners who have been decrying the Nazi oppression of the EU are now desperately trying to avoid invoking article 50 which starts the process of withdrawal although they pledged (as did Cameron) to set it in motion immediately if there was a leave vote. Markets are very jittery. European leaders are not going to do the UK any favors. It's going to be quite entertaining watching the Brexit clowns who have brought this about try to get the toothpaste back in the tube over the next couple of years.
4
What a reckless act that will takes years for Britain to overcome and return to any semblance of the stature it held only last Wednesday. What this disaster has shown above everything, at least to my eyes, is that among the many freedoms allowed us through the magic of democracy, tying a noose around our necks voluntarily and pulling on the rope violently is also one of them.
4
Maybe now would be a good time for Britons to consult the esteemed Sir Stephen Hawking to establish, once and for all, whether matter may emerge from the clutches of a black hole and still be recognizable or whole in any way...
1
An example must be made of Britain. They should send the EU every penny they sent before and get less in return, they should get as little control over migration as they did before, all the investment wealth that went to London should now go to Frankfurt, all the hardworking Europeans should return to the Continent and take their tax-pounds with them. Because as bad as Britain leaving is other countries that participate more in the EU or that are vulnerable to the type of illiberal quasi-democracy Russia has leaving is much much worse.
That would be as foolish as the Brexit.
1
Isn't a 52-48 percent vote in a US presidential election considered a landslide? But wait, we have the Electoral College which is intended to prevent the will of the people from being carried out. And if that gets too close there's always SCOTUS to decide what's best for us.
5
There is no secession by ordinary majority vote in the US. Nor can anyone be deprived of fundamental rights by ordinary majority vote. True democracy, as the US has shown and the rest of the world has yet to understand, is maority rule subject to constraints established and changeable only by a supermajority.
1
Instead of 2 years negociation with the EU, Is it possible for the UK to ask the EU and re-vote the Brexit ? That could be done within a year.
1
Apparently it is easier to leave the Mafia than it is to exit the EU. I sure hope the US never joins a group like that.
2
"Apparently it is easier to leave the Mafia than it is to exit the EU."
I hadn't noticed that the EU was expecting every Brit to send a severed finger to Brussels.
The US joining a group like this? How about the states that decided to leave the US? Weren't armed forces sent down from the North to force the Southern states to stay? At least Brussels isn't raising an army to keep the British in.
I hadn't noticed that the EU was expecting every Brit to send a severed finger to Brussels.
The US joining a group like this? How about the states that decided to leave the US? Weren't armed forces sent down from the North to force the Southern states to stay? At least Brussels isn't raising an army to keep the British in.
1
All I want is for some illuminated head to tell me, why if Spain's youth unemployment rate is at 45%, is membership of the EU a good thing.
In addition, are there not consequences for the EU countries if the UK leaves? Such countries have exhibited painfully slow economic growth for years. Don't they want to continue selling goods and services to the UK? If that's the case, they had better buck their ideas up and start writing some new trade deals.
And Brussels shouldn't look to Scotland with its population of 5 million or to Northern Ireland with less than 2 million to be adequate replacements for the UK as a whole. In fact, Brussels should cease inciting those countries to leave the UK and join the EU. Accepting them as members would lead to a one way flow of cash - out of Brussels.
In addition, are there not consequences for the EU countries if the UK leaves? Such countries have exhibited painfully slow economic growth for years. Don't they want to continue selling goods and services to the UK? If that's the case, they had better buck their ideas up and start writing some new trade deals.
And Brussels shouldn't look to Scotland with its population of 5 million or to Northern Ireland with less than 2 million to be adequate replacements for the UK as a whole. In fact, Brussels should cease inciting those countries to leave the UK and join the EU. Accepting them as members would lead to a one way flow of cash - out of Brussels.
3
With a 20% unemployment rate for Scottish and Welsh citizens 18-30 years old it would cost Brussels a fortune to get them as members.
The British people are spending £350,000,000 a week to be members of a bureaucracy that does little for the money except dream up standards for toasters and dog leashes.You see where the self pity party is coming from? The Elitists in London and those with plans of graduating university and getting a job elsewhere on the continent. Meanwhile the working class is forced to starve looking for nonexistent jobs and paying a tax for a bedroom the government says they can't have.
The British people are spending £350,000,000 a week to be members of a bureaucracy that does little for the money except dream up standards for toasters and dog leashes.You see where the self pity party is coming from? The Elitists in London and those with plans of graduating university and getting a job elsewhere on the continent. Meanwhile the working class is forced to starve looking for nonexistent jobs and paying a tax for a bedroom the government says they can't have.
1
Let the economic consequences of their decision sink in. That will undoubtedly change minds in the electorate and make for the ends of careers of numerous politicians who misled the British public.
1
Historic and without a doubt seismic referendum result. In truth David Cameron should not have called the referendum. It has divided a nation and there is a real risk that the United Kingdom will be split further as Scotland & Northern Ireland look to leave. Already post referendum incidents of racism towards EU citizens have been reported, the economy is unstable, the country seems devoid of leadership as the main parties squabble internally. The conundrum now is to risk further uncertainty by invoking the legal requirements of formally leaving the EU (which is likely to involve long running negotiations), Or try and rescue the economy & preserving the Union (UK) but risk anarchy by ignoring the referendum result.
2
There is a very powerful lobby including most media which needs to keep Britain tied to the EU. We know that leaving the EU is not the same as leaving Europe. We will now have better ties with Europe and this is happening already. Elites including large sections of the media are trying to talk Britain's referendum decision down. Leaving is a wonderful decision whereby power is being devolved from complacent power blocs. Initially markets will be rattled until they get used to the new order. The UK will not be intimidated: by the negative press, by the EU Council etc. The outlook for the UK is now upward, onward, and positive.
9
This is the outcome of the asymmetric power of money, using it's influence to take advantage of their superior bargaining power. Rather than attempt to use their money and access to power for the betterment of society the wealthy just piled on. The common man saw through the "expert" arguments. The Remain camp got what they deserve, chaos to upset their nice little rigged game. Phew, the rancid after breath of their losers bellow really smells.
6
Brexit, like the movement for Trump, is a counter-revolution to a progressive order. Corbyn, like Sanders, fails to see the bigger picture: liberal democracy is a work in progress, is institutions the core of advanced civilization. It's not individuals like Farage or Trump who must be resisted, but the petty nihilism of their supporters.
Corbyn is foolish. He doesn't want to engage with European countries, yet their social policies are those he wants for Britain. Like Sanders' calls to end trade deals, this turn inward supports the pettiness of small minds.
It's a counter-revolution of older people, in societies with aging populations and dropping birth rates. The Arab spring was the opposite: a revolution of youth, in societies with population booms. The fear of old Europe to young Arab migrants is not just xenophobia, religious and ethnic. It's a generational conflict. Britain's 'silent majority' spoke. They're afraid of change.
Corbyn is foolish. He doesn't want to engage with European countries, yet their social policies are those he wants for Britain. Like Sanders' calls to end trade deals, this turn inward supports the pettiness of small minds.
It's a counter-revolution of older people, in societies with aging populations and dropping birth rates. The Arab spring was the opposite: a revolution of youth, in societies with population booms. The fear of old Europe to young Arab migrants is not just xenophobia, religious and ethnic. It's a generational conflict. Britain's 'silent majority' spoke. They're afraid of change.
When I was one-and-eighty
I heard Boris Johnson say,
“Gimme crowns and pounds and guineas
and keep the EU away;
Gimme tea and crumpets
and keep our fancy free.”
But I was one-and-eighty,
No use to talk to me.
I heard Boris Johnson say,
“Gimme crowns and pounds and guineas
and keep the EU away;
Gimme tea and crumpets
and keep our fancy free.”
But I was one-and-eighty,
No use to talk to me.
3
Big Media, doing the bidding of its funders Big Monday, is trying to whip the masses into a frenzy over the referendum outcome. It is the money markets that are taking a hit, and media would have us believe that the world as we know it is ending. Not unlike the Y2K scare of 1999. Instead of inflaming, media should be informing.
12
Could not agree more. With a media like ours, who needs enemies.
1
Like many times in times past Britain will attempt to wiggle its way out of the clear obligations of a hard decision pretending ultimate support of an unwritten constitution that allows considerable lee way!
IT did it twice I the near past with:
-The Balfour Declaration which promised Jews a “ home” in Palestine against unanimous Palestinian opposition and full respect of Palestinian rights ; obviously one contradicting irreparably the other
-The granting of British citizenship to, mostly Indian, officials and support clerks in Africa during the colonization era while denying them the right to dwell, or permanent residence, in the UK!
Both feats of cheap unprincipled “diplomacy” and “real Politik” at its worst and least humanly concerned
With American support it may well find a way out of a situation particularly if the German French alliance unfolds
IT did it twice I the near past with:
-The Balfour Declaration which promised Jews a “ home” in Palestine against unanimous Palestinian opposition and full respect of Palestinian rights ; obviously one contradicting irreparably the other
-The granting of British citizenship to, mostly Indian, officials and support clerks in Africa during the colonization era while denying them the right to dwell, or permanent residence, in the UK!
Both feats of cheap unprincipled “diplomacy” and “real Politik” at its worst and least humanly concerned
With American support it may well find a way out of a situation particularly if the German French alliance unfolds
2
The British majority voted to punch a hole in the bottom of the ship. I wonder what they were thinking? This is what I call "Democrazy".
1
It is the fault of both conservative leaders and liberal ones who lie to constituents about Globalization. Both parties use it as a tool of hope that somehow with it, the economies and the average person who tolls away each day, will benefit. They did not. In fact things get worse, lower wages for more work. The work has become pitiful. As the world economy envelopes India, China and others, Even the tech world now pays far less and fires people at will. No one is safe, a handful of people become very, very rich, needlessly so, while everyone else gets pay cuts and no benefits. In Manattan there are people who actually pay 100 million dollars for an apartment. Complain and you're called a racist, lazy, envious, short-sighted. When and to whom is globalization helping? A handful of elite people who played us like fiddles. It's too late for America as well, we lost our manufacturing base. The left and the right is to blame. Both use it to further manipulate its base. For the left it's about humanitarian reasons we must stick with it. For the right it is how the economy can survive. Both are lies. In the meantime working class people are force fed a steady diet of people from other countries who absolutely do not share our ideas or way of life. Rich people never interact with them, so they can easily charge, Racist, Xenophobic! It is neither.
14
I am sick and tired of so many comments on these boards and elsewhere about how stupid the British are for deciding as they have. It is just rude and completely lacking in understanding.
Our country was formed in the fire of revolution prompted by taxation without representation, why would you expect the British people to live under a regime that our own founders would not accept?
The men and women in the streets of the UK have benefitted little to nothing from their country's membership of the EU. The EU is fundamentally flawed and fated to failure, nothing that is going to change that-- of course there are the vocal few that have benefitted (at the cost of the common-man), these are the voices so many are listening to.
The people of the UK were simply sick of the corruption, waste, and abuse known as the EU, we should be supporting them in their brave move. They certainly don't deserve negativity and rudeness from people who don't have a clue what they are talking about.
Our country was formed in the fire of revolution prompted by taxation without representation, why would you expect the British people to live under a regime that our own founders would not accept?
The men and women in the streets of the UK have benefitted little to nothing from their country's membership of the EU. The EU is fundamentally flawed and fated to failure, nothing that is going to change that-- of course there are the vocal few that have benefitted (at the cost of the common-man), these are the voices so many are listening to.
The people of the UK were simply sick of the corruption, waste, and abuse known as the EU, we should be supporting them in their brave move. They certainly don't deserve negativity and rudeness from people who don't have a clue what they are talking about.
8
The EU will not accept the result of this referendum because the ballots used during the referendum were not under the EU standards.
(Humor)
(Humor)
3
You are right, the right-angles at the corners of the ballot page were not quite 90º, and the font used was not one from the approved EU list.
(also, humor)
(also, humor)
1
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Labour Party fracturing before Brexit, with this only exacerbating their fall?
3
Typical American reaction.Always hysterical.The English will manage just fine.They will get on with it.I suggest Americans do the same.
7
You need to read all the posted messages. Many of us support the idea of a referendum and its outcome and this one in particular. It is the arrogant elitists who are hysterical now because their plans to rule the world (they know best) have been set back by people who they just as well come out and describe as "peasants." Many of us are quite calm and share your confidence in England's future.
I must say that of all the derogatory comments about Americans ever made, the notion of them being "always hysterical" is a new one on me. But perhaps your comment is based on reading the hysterical and fearmongering headlines of recent days in the elitist big money media?
I must say that of all the derogatory comments about Americans ever made, the notion of them being "always hysterical" is a new one on me. But perhaps your comment is based on reading the hysterical and fearmongering headlines of recent days in the elitist big money media?
2
I hope they're hiring therapists at the NYT, they seem like they need help in accepting reality. Brexit happened. Now go take a Xanax and a lie down.
And just remember that things change in the world on a regular basis.
It's hard, we know, but soon you'll forget all about it when Trump is elected.
And just remember that things change in the world on a regular basis.
It's hard, we know, but soon you'll forget all about it when Trump is elected.
4
This has been such a disastrous vote that made the populist (and quite inept) reigning Greek regime seem for once less incompetent than it really is - and that is quite an achievement.
As many commentators previously pointed out this obscene mess is across the board in UK parliament.
Both Tories as well as Labour have proven themselves absolutely incapable of any semblance of leadership. But in reality this reflects badly on the electorate itself: the people have chosen that particular parliament, the people from the so-called "grassroots" have elected Corbyn as Labour Party Leader to drive the party to the ground and finally the people have chosen suicide by voting "Leave" and right after that starred googling "what is the EU?" or calling polling stations the next day begging for a make-over in droves.
And it's not just the Greeks or the British. It seems that everyone is going insane: the French are propping up Marie Le Pen, the Austrians were this close to electing as president of the country an actual nazi and in the US Trump is no longer just the joke he would've been 10 years ago. Real people are actually trying to vote him in office as POTUS.
Love the smell of 1914 in the morning...
As many commentators previously pointed out this obscene mess is across the board in UK parliament.
Both Tories as well as Labour have proven themselves absolutely incapable of any semblance of leadership. But in reality this reflects badly on the electorate itself: the people have chosen that particular parliament, the people from the so-called "grassroots" have elected Corbyn as Labour Party Leader to drive the party to the ground and finally the people have chosen suicide by voting "Leave" and right after that starred googling "what is the EU?" or calling polling stations the next day begging for a make-over in droves.
And it's not just the Greeks or the British. It seems that everyone is going insane: the French are propping up Marie Le Pen, the Austrians were this close to electing as president of the country an actual nazi and in the US Trump is no longer just the joke he would've been 10 years ago. Real people are actually trying to vote him in office as POTUS.
Love the smell of 1914 in the morning...
3
I've looked up results of the referendums to JOIN EU. There was actually no referendum to join. British were not asked if they want or don't want to join. It was years later when they held referendum if they will remain in EU and the result was 'stay' with turnout of 64.0%. This results was respected. Last week they re-voted and said 'leave'. And the result should be respected too. And the funny part is that those "old uneducated" people who voted to leave are same people who voted, in the past, to stay. Calling them dumb is actually dumb. I'm pretty sure they've thought through it a lot, like they did in the past. But EU has become socialist union led by Germans and no opinion is allowed if it's not what Germans say. Now British have a chance to become free like Switzerland and Denmark are. They are not in EU and they are both strong and rich countries.
BTW, Sweden voted with only 52% saying 'yes' to enter EU. Maybe that referendum should have been invalid, especially when 56% rejected Euro currency in another referendum.
BTW, Sweden voted with only 52% saying 'yes' to enter EU. Maybe that referendum should have been invalid, especially when 56% rejected Euro currency in another referendum.
7
Interesting that as America's two-years marathon to pick a new president shifts into high gear, the British prime minister will be replaced quietly by party elders meeting behind closed doors.
With the Brexit vote, a warning shot which has been fired across the bow of the ship of the United States. We have our own Nigel Farage, a know-nothing demagogue hailing Brexit as a "beautiful thing", a cause for celebration and spoken as a true vulture capitalist "good for business" at least for his golf course in Scotland. Completely obviously to Scotland voting 60-40 to Remain, this ignorant blowhard went on to say that Scotland did the right thing by voting to Leave. Talk about Orwellian.
Americans who think the same catastrophe can't happen here, and that electing Trump would be no different than Hillary, need to have their head examined. The ramifications for Britain, what's left of it, will be great, as would be putting a complete incompetent like Trump into the highest office in the land.
Perhaps the only saving grace is that by Trump supporting Brexit, as well as his many other foibles, only serve to further cement the case for making sure that such as odious egotist never gets close to the halls of power. Our already great nation won't be singing "God Bless America", but God help America.
DD
Manhattan
Americans who think the same catastrophe can't happen here, and that electing Trump would be no different than Hillary, need to have their head examined. The ramifications for Britain, what's left of it, will be great, as would be putting a complete incompetent like Trump into the highest office in the land.
Perhaps the only saving grace is that by Trump supporting Brexit, as well as his many other foibles, only serve to further cement the case for making sure that such as odious egotist never gets close to the halls of power. Our already great nation won't be singing "God Bless America", but God help America.
DD
Manhattan
4
I wonder why there wasn't a "supermajority" threshold established for this vote. There is is a premise in parliamentary procedure.
From Wikipedia: (Supermajority)
"Parliamentary procedure requires that any action that may alter the rights of a minority has a supermajority requirement. Robert's Rules of Order states:[7]
As a compromise between the rights of the individual and the rights of the assembly, the principle has been established that a two-thirds vote is required to adopt any motion that: (a) suspends or modifies a rule of order previously adopted; (b) prevents the introduction of a question for consideration; (c) closes, limits, or extends the limits of debate; (d) closes nominations or the polls, or otherwise limits the freedom of nominating or voting; or (e) takes away membership."
From Wikipedia: (Supermajority)
"Parliamentary procedure requires that any action that may alter the rights of a minority has a supermajority requirement. Robert's Rules of Order states:[7]
As a compromise between the rights of the individual and the rights of the assembly, the principle has been established that a two-thirds vote is required to adopt any motion that: (a) suspends or modifies a rule of order previously adopted; (b) prevents the introduction of a question for consideration; (c) closes, limits, or extends the limits of debate; (d) closes nominations or the polls, or otherwise limits the freedom of nominating or voting; or (e) takes away membership."
Possibly because a minority can then hold the majority captive.
The European Union not speaking from a single voice does not help matters.
Any person remotely in a European Government not necessarily the EU seems to be under the opinion their own voice is the one to be obeyed.
From Merkel to a never herd of before French Government minister stating a view as if it was law.
Donald Tusk (Head of the EU) stating the UK should serve notice straight away under article 50 without a UK Government in place. Is the biggest idiot of then all. When under EU law it is the leaving Government who states the time scale. Merkel had to correct him.
Remember the UK is the second largest economy in Europe and if we go down so does the rest.
The German Car makers wish to carry on trading with the UK as normal. The UK is the largest European Customer for German cars.
Any person remotely in a European Government not necessarily the EU seems to be under the opinion their own voice is the one to be obeyed.
From Merkel to a never herd of before French Government minister stating a view as if it was law.
Donald Tusk (Head of the EU) stating the UK should serve notice straight away under article 50 without a UK Government in place. Is the biggest idiot of then all. When under EU law it is the leaving Government who states the time scale. Merkel had to correct him.
Remember the UK is the second largest economy in Europe and if we go down so does the rest.
The German Car makers wish to carry on trading with the UK as normal. The UK is the largest European Customer for German cars.
2
Elections have consequences. Get over it. What happened to the polls? Not so good were they?
3
Unfortunately, David Cameron is a captain who has run the ship of state aground. Along with the other members of the cabal best removed before they create more damage.
2
Corybn should go, his support for Europe was Tepid!. Labour needs a more convincing leader maybe like David Miliband. Having said that I think Labour is better out of power right now as the Conservatives have made a complete mess of the country and the clean up will be extremely painful for British people, so Conservatives themselves need to take the full heat of their mess.
1
So much turmoil when no one knows what the final result will be and
when that result will go into effect.
when that result will go into effect.
3
Britain, like many developed countries in the industrialized world, has an aging population. The median age of all people in the UK is now over 40. These older people do not derive the same benefits of belonging to the EU as younger people might. Many of them are retired and most have no interest in moving to another country. As such, it becomes increasingly difficult to convince them why their tax money should be sent to Brussels. It’s just the reality of it.
1
The calls to remove democracy are far more scary than anything I've ever heard out of the mouths of Trump supporters.
8
The coverage of Brexit by the NYT's and most of the MSM has been absolutely terrible if not downright irresponsible.
Coverage has mainly consisted of scaremongering. There has been little in depth review of what it might actually mean for the UK and the EU.
Rather, from the way the press is going on you would think:
>Borders are closing up tomorrow!
>EU citizens working in the UK will be put on planes and boats to be sent back home next week.
>The entirety of the financial services industry - a mainstay of London for centuries! - will crumble in the next few months!
To act as if free people exercising their democratic rights - as good or as bad as the outcome may be - is some how the precipice of WW I or even WW II is just the height of unreasoned hysteria.
The MSM needs to stop taking its talking points from the plutocrats, the 1% and all their lackeys in government, business and media. They need to actually start going out and understanding the pains and fears, real or imagined, that everyday people are living every day, not just life in elite urban centers. Maybe then there can be a reasoned assessment of what Brexit will mean.
Coverage has mainly consisted of scaremongering. There has been little in depth review of what it might actually mean for the UK and the EU.
Rather, from the way the press is going on you would think:
>Borders are closing up tomorrow!
>EU citizens working in the UK will be put on planes and boats to be sent back home next week.
>The entirety of the financial services industry - a mainstay of London for centuries! - will crumble in the next few months!
To act as if free people exercising their democratic rights - as good or as bad as the outcome may be - is some how the precipice of WW I or even WW II is just the height of unreasoned hysteria.
The MSM needs to stop taking its talking points from the plutocrats, the 1% and all their lackeys in government, business and media. They need to actually start going out and understanding the pains and fears, real or imagined, that everyday people are living every day, not just life in elite urban centers. Maybe then there can be a reasoned assessment of what Brexit will mean.
7
I don’t see any good reason why they can’t hold another referendum.
With no written constitution, there isn’t a clear rule against it.
If there were a well-crafted rule, it would surely provide that such a hugely consequential action required a “supermajority” of 60% or 2/3, (Removal of a US President or Federal judge, upon impeachment, requires 2/3, for example.)
The relevant EU agreement (Treaty of Lisbon, Art. 50) provides for up to two years of negotiations over the terms of departure, but that period doesn’t start until the UK gives notice of intent to depart. PM Cameron says he will not give such notice before October, probably leaving it to his successor as PM.
And the 52-48 vote to leave seems a pretty soft and muddly mandate, where much of the impetus for departure was based on prevarication and fraud -- the vastly misstated figures for the payments to the EU, and the now-admittedly false claim that the supposed savings would fund the popular NHS, the crude manipulation of anti-immigrant sentiment -- and since many who voted for Brexit only now understand the consequences of that vote, as they did not earlier, when the opponents were weak and incompetent in their opposition.
There is little reason to hold the original, deeply flawed result sacrosanct. If there is a sufficient groundswell for a revote, they should have one, whether in conjunction with a new parliamentary election or otherwise.
With no written constitution, there isn’t a clear rule against it.
If there were a well-crafted rule, it would surely provide that such a hugely consequential action required a “supermajority” of 60% or 2/3, (Removal of a US President or Federal judge, upon impeachment, requires 2/3, for example.)
The relevant EU agreement (Treaty of Lisbon, Art. 50) provides for up to two years of negotiations over the terms of departure, but that period doesn’t start until the UK gives notice of intent to depart. PM Cameron says he will not give such notice before October, probably leaving it to his successor as PM.
And the 52-48 vote to leave seems a pretty soft and muddly mandate, where much of the impetus for departure was based on prevarication and fraud -- the vastly misstated figures for the payments to the EU, and the now-admittedly false claim that the supposed savings would fund the popular NHS, the crude manipulation of anti-immigrant sentiment -- and since many who voted for Brexit only now understand the consequences of that vote, as they did not earlier, when the opponents were weak and incompetent in their opposition.
There is little reason to hold the original, deeply flawed result sacrosanct. If there is a sufficient groundswell for a revote, they should have one, whether in conjunction with a new parliamentary election or otherwise.
1
So many people say there are "undemocratic bureaucrats" in Brussels. Sorry, but don't you know that many of these "bureaucrats" are British? They also take part in the governing of Europe and fight for the interest of the UK. Now Brits choose to leave, and those officials have to leave, too (the EU doesn't require that they must leave, but it's meaningless to stay in Brussels since the UK will quit).
Think about Switzerland and Norway. They share the European single market, and have free movement of labor, capital, goods (except agricultural) and services with the EU. They have to give money (less than EU member states) to Brussels, too. They have to accept many EU laws and regulations as their laws. But, they are not members of the EU, and they have no say in the EU governance. And, this may be the best deal Britain can get in the following negotiations.
Yeah, maybe UK becomes "independent" (when is it not independent?), but later you find you can't risk losing the single market, which is quite possible. And angry EU countries will allow no cherry picking. Remember, even with its large financial services profits, the UK still has a huge current account deficit. What if you can't get a good deal with the EU? You will lose those services profits gradually.
Well, good luck Britain. You are not an Empire since long time ago. You have much less leverage that you think you had.
Think about Switzerland and Norway. They share the European single market, and have free movement of labor, capital, goods (except agricultural) and services with the EU. They have to give money (less than EU member states) to Brussels, too. They have to accept many EU laws and regulations as their laws. But, they are not members of the EU, and they have no say in the EU governance. And, this may be the best deal Britain can get in the following negotiations.
Yeah, maybe UK becomes "independent" (when is it not independent?), but later you find you can't risk losing the single market, which is quite possible. And angry EU countries will allow no cherry picking. Remember, even with its large financial services profits, the UK still has a huge current account deficit. What if you can't get a good deal with the EU? You will lose those services profits gradually.
Well, good luck Britain. You are not an Empire since long time ago. You have much less leverage that you think you had.
1
Looking at the internal political results of the Brexit vote, one might almost describe the situation as anarchy from the right. Likely, a Trump victory in November would produce a similar result here. In the Sixties, the Left had a strong anarchic strain. Today, it is the Right.
And everyone thinks they have just invented the wheel.
And everyone thinks they have just invented the wheel.
1
th plutocrats and globalists are already hard at work figuring how to exploit th new england that will arise from th eu england
they will never stop in their pursuit of th last nickel
all this will not end w referendums or votes
it will end as th romanovs ended
they will never stop in their pursuit of th last nickel
all this will not end w referendums or votes
it will end as th romanovs ended
2
Corbyn's utterly spineless. His transparently half-hearted "support" for the Stay side in the debate was a joke. The man is not fit for office.
If the UK does a reverse with another referendum, it will become the laughingstock of this world. After all, here in the USA, there is a large segment of the population that would like to redo the presidential elections of 2000, 2004, 2008 and 2012. but we accepted the will of the people
2
"Will become"?
Democracy is not a suicide pact. Contrary to those ideologues who believe the "Will of the People" is sacrosanct, when a mistake is made and the consequences are abundantly clear, that mistake needs to be corrected.
3
Should Scotland and Northern Ireland leave, just imagine a meeting between Cameron and Queen Elizabeth. How does he look her in the eye and say yes, I'm the man who destroyed your United Kingdom
History may show he's even worse than Neville Chamberlain, who at least believed he was saving Britain from slaughter. Cameron did out of cheap ambition.
History may show he's even worse than Neville Chamberlain, who at least believed he was saving Britain from slaughter. Cameron did out of cheap ambition.
4
Beware of a vacumn of leadership, what happens the day after the fall? Chaos creates instability, complexity seems beyond the reach of the simplistic.
1
This is ridiculous. The UK needs to cowboy up, split into three, then take the rump state that remains out of the EU.
They can then wander in their isolationist, low growth purgatory until they find their senses.
They can then wander in their isolationist, low growth purgatory until they find their senses.
2
Mobocracy. That was his greatest fear. It is why we are a republic and not a direct democracy. George Washington was his chief supporter.
A mobocracy is when uninformed people vote strictly on emotional issues related to fear and anger.
The most googled questions by the "people" of Great Britain AFTER the Brexit was "What is the EU?" More then 3 million brits have buyers remorse, Britian dropped from the 5th largest to the 6th largest economy in one day. And nearly everything the Leave panders said were outright lies. Briton has the 4th largest military in the world.
What happens to NATO, to the border states to Russia? Will this shatter the peace in Ireland?
One thing is certain, we can all now see that mobocracy causes chaos. Since life is already chaotic, this only makes it worse.
The Leave voters are like a lynch mob, who later discover the hanged man was innocent.
Hamilton's greatest fear: Mobocracy.
A mobocracy is when uninformed people vote strictly on emotional issues related to fear and anger.
The most googled questions by the "people" of Great Britain AFTER the Brexit was "What is the EU?" More then 3 million brits have buyers remorse, Britian dropped from the 5th largest to the 6th largest economy in one day. And nearly everything the Leave panders said were outright lies. Briton has the 4th largest military in the world.
What happens to NATO, to the border states to Russia? Will this shatter the peace in Ireland?
One thing is certain, we can all now see that mobocracy causes chaos. Since life is already chaotic, this only makes it worse.
The Leave voters are like a lynch mob, who later discover the hanged man was innocent.
Hamilton's greatest fear: Mobocracy.
5
My very well educated, thoughtful cousin, living in London w her barrister husband (who works in international arbitration), voted to leave. She said her vote was very complicated, and at the end she pulled that lever.
I respect my cousin, but I just can't see this ending well for England, as Scotland, perhaps Northern Ireland, and the rest of Europe move on in an integrated way, and leave little England behind.
I respect my cousin, but I just can't see this ending well for England, as Scotland, perhaps Northern Ireland, and the rest of Europe move on in an integrated way, and leave little England behind.
3
While the whole episode of BREXIT is self-inflicted wound filled with lies and false promises. Mr Cobyn cannot escape responsibility by not putting country before party - gee, this is so eerily familiar! - by not helping outgoing PM, Mr Cameron.
Considering Scotland and N Ireland were in the REMAIN camp, their holding referenda to leave UK is really a foregone conclusion.
This is the typical prisoner's dilemma scenario, when selfish players in a game are now guaranteeing the worst possible outcome for everyone. Or, in common term, power hungry people would rather preside over ruin than to share prosperity for all.
So now Britain is becoming a financial Syria.
Sad!
Considering Scotland and N Ireland were in the REMAIN camp, their holding referenda to leave UK is really a foregone conclusion.
This is the typical prisoner's dilemma scenario, when selfish players in a game are now guaranteeing the worst possible outcome for everyone. Or, in common term, power hungry people would rather preside over ruin than to share prosperity for all.
So now Britain is becoming a financial Syria.
Sad!
10
Really? A financial Syria? The U.K. stock market is higher than it was two weeks ago and basically flat since March.
@Yankpole,
2 weeks? Have you seen all the UK banks today? Already, HSBC and Chartered have been thinking of leaving UK already. The rest are not well capitalized like the U.S.
You are in Texas and you see what happened when the oil industry went south. Just think when the technocrats in London leave en masse in the next 2 years. Scotland has the energy of North Sea. What does England proper has? The U.S. banks may not leave entirely but EU is bigger and the banks will move some of the ops out. The Pound goes down may help tourism but what else? China is going to lower its Yuan to match the Pound. So forget about manufacturing.
The reason why some U.S. companies got hit is because they have a big operation in UK. If people there can afford to buy stuff, these companies are going to.
That is a financial Syria in the making
2 weeks? Have you seen all the UK banks today? Already, HSBC and Chartered have been thinking of leaving UK already. The rest are not well capitalized like the U.S.
You are in Texas and you see what happened when the oil industry went south. Just think when the technocrats in London leave en masse in the next 2 years. Scotland has the energy of North Sea. What does England proper has? The U.S. banks may not leave entirely but EU is bigger and the banks will move some of the ops out. The Pound goes down may help tourism but what else? China is going to lower its Yuan to match the Pound. So forget about manufacturing.
The reason why some U.S. companies got hit is because they have a big operation in UK. If people there can afford to buy stuff, these companies are going to.
That is a financial Syria in the making
Elections have consequences.
41
Sometimes, even non-binding ones.
1
Yet again, in the news reports and in many comments, there's little mention of one of the underlying problems Britons have faced under David Cameron's tenure as PM: austerity.
After the global financial crisis, instead of a sound approach to reviving Britain's economy, the Conservatives took a pro-austerity, neoliberal approach (with the Bank of England's counterweight liberal monetary policy preventing a total collapse), and the effects were particularly hard to those parts of Britain that ended up voting for Brexit.
Does no one at the New York Times know or realize this? Conservative economic policies did the US in under George W. Bush (and we have had to endure moderate austerity under Obama because of the GOP Congress's push for the sequester), and they have led to Britain's staggered recovery. Cameron overplayed his hand and arrogantly pushed for this vote to silence the far right, but Conservatives are STILL in power. That is the problem.
On the other hand, since the "New" Labour Party has taken the approach of being Tory-lite, and the Liberal Democratic Party disgraced itself by basically also becoming Tory-lite under its coalition with Cameron and the Tories, who can Britons vote for? They clearly voted AGAINST the EU and immigrants, but who can they vote for when all the major parties are such a disaster?
After the global financial crisis, instead of a sound approach to reviving Britain's economy, the Conservatives took a pro-austerity, neoliberal approach (with the Bank of England's counterweight liberal monetary policy preventing a total collapse), and the effects were particularly hard to those parts of Britain that ended up voting for Brexit.
Does no one at the New York Times know or realize this? Conservative economic policies did the US in under George W. Bush (and we have had to endure moderate austerity under Obama because of the GOP Congress's push for the sequester), and they have led to Britain's staggered recovery. Cameron overplayed his hand and arrogantly pushed for this vote to silence the far right, but Conservatives are STILL in power. That is the problem.
On the other hand, since the "New" Labour Party has taken the approach of being Tory-lite, and the Liberal Democratic Party disgraced itself by basically also becoming Tory-lite under its coalition with Cameron and the Tories, who can Britons vote for? They clearly voted AGAINST the EU and immigrants, but who can they vote for when all the major parties are such a disaster?
91
Cutting government spending is the one necessary step in getting economic activity going because gov'ts suck up all the cash in circulation.
. . . . . . . . . . This fact is why FDR never fixed the Depression. Harry Truman did indeed cut spending and is credited with actually being the one who finished off the Depression which Roosevelt did nothing to stop.
FDR was great at band-aid approaches to treating symptoms but even his Cabinet admitted that they blew way to much money on solutions that only created more problems.
. . . . . . . . . . This fact is why FDR never fixed the Depression. Harry Truman did indeed cut spending and is credited with actually being the one who finished off the Depression which Roosevelt did nothing to stop.
FDR was great at band-aid approaches to treating symptoms but even his Cabinet admitted that they blew way to much money on solutions that only created more problems.
It seems even the vaunted Gray Lady struggles with cause and effect.
1
The UK is supposed to be a Parliamentary democracy, which implies that the will of Parliament should take precedence over a referendum. After all, Cameron only called for it for party political reasons to satisfy anti-EU members of his party, never dreaming it would backfire.
In the current House of Commons, a clear majority of the members is in favor of remaining in the EU, and if they were to summon the spine they could make it impossible for the next Prime Minister to proceed with Brexit, unless he/she called for an election which resulted in a Leave majority. Already many voters appear to regret their Leave vote
In the current House of Commons, a clear majority of the members is in favor of remaining in the EU, and if they were to summon the spine they could make it impossible for the next Prime Minister to proceed with Brexit, unless he/she called for an election which resulted in a Leave majority. Already many voters appear to regret their Leave vote
13
Parliament has to invoke article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. Such an event makes dissolution of the UK far more possible - meaning a vote for Brexit is a vote for dissolution of the UK. How many "conservatives"in the Tory party would vote for the destruction of their country. Something as big as invoking article 50 should then be a measure put before Parliament and if it fails then it should result in a vote of no-confidence in the government. (And who could have confidence in a government that wants to destroy the country?) - such failure means many pro-EU, Pro-UK Tories falling on their sword in a vote that would require them to put country before party.
In the general election that followed the Tories would presumably be representative of the No-EU & No-UK vote and Labor Pro-EU & Pro-UK vote. This is essence would be THE 2nd referendum and this time for consequecences.
The big problem is that the current head of the Tories is Pro-EU & Pro-UK, and the current head of Labor is more No-EU than for it. Quite simply both of these blokes have to go.
Cameron's campaign in the general last year was based on fearmongering that Labor was an existential threat to the country. Everyone's choking on the irony of that, especially him. He and the concept of referendums in general, are going to go down in history with a bit of contempt, I presume.
In the general election that followed the Tories would presumably be representative of the No-EU & No-UK vote and Labor Pro-EU & Pro-UK vote. This is essence would be THE 2nd referendum and this time for consequecences.
The big problem is that the current head of the Tories is Pro-EU & Pro-UK, and the current head of Labor is more No-EU than for it. Quite simply both of these blokes have to go.
Cameron's campaign in the general last year was based on fearmongering that Labor was an existential threat to the country. Everyone's choking on the irony of that, especially him. He and the concept of referendums in general, are going to go down in history with a bit of contempt, I presume.
12
The Scottish National Party will take any pretext for threatening to hold an independence referendum. If it weren't Brexit, it would be something else down the road.
As for the border between Eire and Northern Ireland having to be closed, I doubt that will happen - most likely the UK immigration border will move to the ports and airports of Northern Ireland.
As for the border between Eire and Northern Ireland having to be closed, I doubt that will happen - most likely the UK immigration border will move to the ports and airports of Northern Ireland.
No they don't. Media manipulation of the facts.
Is there any reader so naive as to believe that the British people had no good reasons for wanting to leave--that they just held this vote on a lark? Next, who are the Americans so arrogant as to pontificate that the British cannot manage themselves successfully as a nation? NYT, your proselytizing for special interests' contempt for a citizens vote and your efforts to spread fear on the behalf of business are a disgrace.
57
"Time is a great thickener of things." - Lincoln, in "Lincoln"
There's a reason why referendums are rare. No issue exist in isolation. How many people not wanting to be a member of the EU want to end the UK? Well, breaking away from the EU creates an existential issue for the UK - like it or not.
So then if the referendum said: no EU & no UK vs yes EU & yes UK it would have been more clarifying.
Because of thiss the referendum is eventually going to be swept under the rug and will be clarified by a new general election where the Tory party will run as the party of no EU & no UK.
Cameron was trying to solve his own internal party problem by subjecting the nation to a referendum that turns out to be a referendum on the nation itself. Only a little more than a year ago he ran his general election campaign on a fear-mongering theme that a vote for labor was an existential danger to the country. Now a little more than a year later his politics & policies threaten to do what a hundred year war against the French, culminating in a 25 year war against Napoleonic France, and what the Kaiser nor Hitler nor Cold War Stalin could do: destroy the UK. History is going to be brutal to Cameron. I'm sure George "wrongway" Bush is feeling a tad big better today. He destroyed the global economy, & middle east stability, but try as he might, his policy's have yet to destroy his own country (yet). As Rodney used to say, "if you want to look thin stand next to someone fatter than you."
There's a reason why referendums are rare. No issue exist in isolation. How many people not wanting to be a member of the EU want to end the UK? Well, breaking away from the EU creates an existential issue for the UK - like it or not.
So then if the referendum said: no EU & no UK vs yes EU & yes UK it would have been more clarifying.
Because of thiss the referendum is eventually going to be swept under the rug and will be clarified by a new general election where the Tory party will run as the party of no EU & no UK.
Cameron was trying to solve his own internal party problem by subjecting the nation to a referendum that turns out to be a referendum on the nation itself. Only a little more than a year ago he ran his general election campaign on a fear-mongering theme that a vote for labor was an existential danger to the country. Now a little more than a year later his politics & policies threaten to do what a hundred year war against the French, culminating in a 25 year war against Napoleonic France, and what the Kaiser nor Hitler nor Cold War Stalin could do: destroy the UK. History is going to be brutal to Cameron. I'm sure George "wrongway" Bush is feeling a tad big better today. He destroyed the global economy, & middle east stability, but try as he might, his policy's have yet to destroy his own country (yet). As Rodney used to say, "if you want to look thin stand next to someone fatter than you."
30
Get back to us when your economy is tanked, UK is split...err...but then you won't even have Internet possibly
Thank you
1
Good bye Corbyn. Take a hike.
11
It seems the electorates of both the US and the UK contain large segments that are so lacking in knowledge of civics, history and mathematical logic that they are incapable of fathoming when they are being blatantly lied to.
112
Not so stupid, however, to know when they are being looked down upon and disrespected. Arrogance is so easy to spot and quite unattractive.
3
After 7 destructive years of vandalism, most of the U.S. is wise to how the liberal media will never admit that politically correct liberalism has destroyed much of what drew immigrants here for two centuries.
As Benjamin Franklin said, "Sometimes the masses are asses." Yup, sometimes they are, on both sides of the pond.
Britain has a long history of a parliamentary democracy that has led to stability and reflected the mood the country but only in recently have they started holding referendum with mixed results. A referendum only ever makes sense when there are clearly articulated and specific options on either side. The 2011 referendum on changing from first past the post to alternate vote general elections met that criteria. The Scottish independence vote didn't to some extent because the terms of independence had not been negotiated and so there would have been an unnecessary crisis had the vote been yes. This latest vote was even more extreme in failing to meet the criteria since it was, and still is, totally unclear what relationship the UK would have with the EU after leaving and there were wild statements on either side. Boris Johnson even articulated the idea that a "out" vote might lead to the UK getting a new deal. Once the terms of Brexit are known, it hardly seems unreasonable or undemocratic to reconsider, either with a new referendum or a parliamentary election.
11
.....yeah but ....the language used was almost identical to the 1975 EEC referendum. So was the definition of a majority win
Excellent point, but the EU won't let you do that. Negotiations can only begin after you have served notice and committed yourself to leaving. I would assume this way of doing things is designed to act as a deterrent to leaving. Once the EU has entrapped you in its tentacles, it doesn't want to let you go.
1
Won't it be nice once one country can complete this process for use as a template to hedge against remote tyranny in the future. Ukraine did not perform well, maybe this time.
3
It is surprisingly easy how the lower classes were manipulated into voting against their interest. The same thing happens in this country. Think about the tax cuts that pay for themselves and how cutting entitlements helps people, or how more guns makes us safer. We should learn from this disaster and politicians that make false promises to get policies that hurt the people they say they are trying to help.
79
I think you're confusing real life with Downton Abbey.
Are you saying half the population are "lower class"?
How arrogant and condescending can you people get?
Are you saying half the population are "lower class"?
How arrogant and condescending can you people get?
2
Are you referring to people who have been unambiguously harmed in terms of their wages and access to services, by wider immigration and privileges given to non UK citizens? How can you possibly say they are voting against their interests? Just another Krugman sound byte, correct?
2
The last 72 hours have been momentous for the UK and Europe. But in spite of the fact that the UK no longer has a functioning government or opposition party, the leaders of the "Leave" campaign are now saying "just kidding". A leader of the Leave campaign said on the BBC today "We never made any commitments. We just made a series of promises that were possibilities" (Ian Duncan Smith).
The vote was a vote that should never of happened. It was driven by an internal feud in the Conservative party that has been taking place for over twenty years, has has now taken down three Conservative Prime Ministers.
The vote was a vote that should never of happened. It was driven by an internal feud in the Conservative party that has been taking place for over twenty years, has has now taken down three Conservative Prime Ministers.
25
Supporters for Brexit had been lied & brain washed.
The Leave Campaign were utterly unable to make any commitments. They are not a political party, and have no power. It's disturbing that some of the electorate were seemingly unable to understand this.
I wondered why progressives were so concerned by Brexit. I wondered why they were so upset when a nation asserted itself against a bloated, autocratic billionaires club set up in Brussels, run by Germans.
Then it hit me. The EU is the model of the bloated, autocratic billionaires club the progressives have been working so hard to set up here.
And the model just got blowed up by the yahoos who don't understand nothin'.
The anger and tears of the Left nourish my smile garden.
Then it hit me. The EU is the model of the bloated, autocratic billionaires club the progressives have been working so hard to set up here.
And the model just got blowed up by the yahoos who don't understand nothin'.
The anger and tears of the Left nourish my smile garden.
27
And in the United State, the way people react against bloated, autocratic billionaires club is to vote for a bloated, autocratic billionaire. Wonder about that for a little while.
74
Solomon
We on the left are not angry and are not crying.
We are LAUGHING at how stupid the folks who voted Leave really are.
Wait and see what turmoil now ensues before you take a victory lap. Have you checked any of your investments in the stock market lately?
We on the left are not angry and are not crying.
We are LAUGHING at how stupid the folks who voted Leave really are.
Wait and see what turmoil now ensues before you take a victory lap. Have you checked any of your investments in the stock market lately?
3
Boy have you got your facts backwards. The billionaires club is on the right. Yes the rich try to influence both parties. But they mostly control the right. On both sides the little guy tries to have their say. On the right they use racism, xenophobia, and ignorance. They tell you they want government off the backs of the little guy, that is going to the lazy 47% and then they cut taxes on the rich. They use what remains to " privatize the government. Which means even more for them. All in the name of "small" government. The Left expands government programs, increase taxes on the rich, supposed job creators. So everyone can start a business. Not fall into debt.
1
We Yanks are fortunate Britain voted the way they did.
In the next 4/5 months, the promises made (and voted for) will melt down into the lies they always were. Eyes will open, but too late.
Meanwhile here, the lies being thrown at us (due to be voted on Nov. 8) will get a closer look. Maybe enough eyes will open in time.
Every vote counts. We've been burned before.
In the next 4/5 months, the promises made (and voted for) will melt down into the lies they always were. Eyes will open, but too late.
Meanwhile here, the lies being thrown at us (due to be voted on Nov. 8) will get a closer look. Maybe enough eyes will open in time.
Every vote counts. We've been burned before.
41
The lie is that the EU serves the citizens of Europe. It doesn't and never has.
Can't expect you to understand.
Can't expect you to understand.
3
I dont think so, sadly because there are still a lot of stupid People in the USA that think ONLY of themselves without looking at the big Picture. "Never underestimate the predictability of Stupidity"
Brexit is real, Trump is fake. That's the difference between British and American democracy. Clinton will be the next president of the U.S., from which aerie she will be able to widely contemplate the chaos that she and the other "hawks" have wrought across the Greater Middle East region and beyond, and which for some time now has erosively been spilling, nay flooding over the EU, Russia, even into China. The disintegration of the Middle East nation state is both inversely and perversely reflected in the imperiled condition of the supranational European state, with the UK's defection from the latter being a most astonishing example of a perfect circularity of consequences: The Bushite-Blairite grand plan to transform (i.e. destabilize) and refashion the Middle East nation state in the image of an 'enlightened' neoliberal post- and supranational order may ultimately prove to be the concept that as praxis seeded the whirlwind that set in motion the collapse of the neoliberal pro-Nato EU edifice itself.
11
Reality must prevail.
"Ben Hunt of Salient Partners, went as far as to call it a “Bear Stearns moment,” evoking the investment firm whose collapse in March 2008 was a prelude to the financial chaos that September."
That's a quote from the NYT article on the Hedge Fund losses on the front page.
Well, why should we care? Well, because since 2008 we didn't reinstate Glass Steagall and everyone's money in the bank is at risk unless the government steps in AGAIN.
The Brits were right. You need to destroy it for them to take you seriously.
That's a quote from the NYT article on the Hedge Fund losses on the front page.
Well, why should we care? Well, because since 2008 we didn't reinstate Glass Steagall and everyone's money in the bank is at risk unless the government steps in AGAIN.
The Brits were right. You need to destroy it for them to take you seriously.
22
Oh , so now there is 'voters-politicians remorse" because Brexit did prevail, and we can look forward to morel political maneuvering-backpedaling by those who championed leaving the EU. Quote from today's NYTimes : Andrew Moravcsik, a professor of politics at Princeton University, wrote in April that Brexit was “Kabuki” theater, arguing that “under no circumstances will Britain leave Europe, regardless of the result of the referendum.” UK is becoming a cartoon.
8
might want to try reading other sources for quotes
1
Princeton professors are becoming cartoons.
2
I feel terribly for what the British are going through. Cameron, who won a clear majority last election, will resign but will not invoke Article 50. Leaders in the "Leave" group are backtracking on promises made already and also will not commit to invoking Article 50. The British economy was in relatively good shape but now the pound has fallen nearly 10% against the dollar, other markets are reacting poorly, and most economists predict an economic downturn and perhaps recession for the UK.
This was a non-binding referendum with those favoring exit from the EU holding a narrow 52-48 majority. So, nearly half of the voting public wants to remain in the EU. Shouldn't a decision as substantive as this require a larger majority to influence parliamentary action? We have very high bars for amending the Constitution or simply overriding a President's veto on ordinary legislation.
From reading the article there was a glimmer of hope. It seems possible that the Scots could keep the UK in the EU if the Scottish parliament refuses to consent to a "Brexit" law enacted by the English parliament. This seems almost certain to be the Scottish position but the ultimate outcome depends on how various legal actions and rulings play out.
So, instead of breaking up the UK by voting for independence, the Scots might actually have the power to preserve it.
This was a non-binding referendum with those favoring exit from the EU holding a narrow 52-48 majority. So, nearly half of the voting public wants to remain in the EU. Shouldn't a decision as substantive as this require a larger majority to influence parliamentary action? We have very high bars for amending the Constitution or simply overriding a President's veto on ordinary legislation.
From reading the article there was a glimmer of hope. It seems possible that the Scots could keep the UK in the EU if the Scottish parliament refuses to consent to a "Brexit" law enacted by the English parliament. This seems almost certain to be the Scottish position but the ultimate outcome depends on how various legal actions and rulings play out.
So, instead of breaking up the UK by voting for independence, the Scots might actually have the power to preserve it.
34
Cameron's attempt to invoke article 50 should lead to a vote of no-confidence in parliament triggering a new general election, which would in all actuality, give the British a second bite at the apple on the issue of the EU.
Since it's not clear that Brexit = No-UK, I should think the outcome would be different.
Since it's not clear that Brexit = No-UK, I should think the outcome would be different.
4
Indeed, in the current British fog, Scots seem to be about the only one with a clear sense of where they want to go. Where are the leaders in time of trouble? Churchill must be turning in his grave.
A lower price for the Pound means more exports and less imports. The Chinese have been doing that to us for 30 years.
If the first referendum in the UK to join Europe in 1975 could be reversed so can this one.
9
Brexit - return to past glory of colonial Britannia without the colonies - unsustainable misadventure.
Time for the royalty to intervene.
Time for the royalty to intervene.
10
A speech from the Queen, devoid of specific advice, but reminding all to set aside their political ambitions and focus on what is best for the UK, would not be out of place. No one expects to agree on what is best, but a change in attitude and a call for cooperation would be welcome.
Shame on British nationalists and Brexit proponents for their lack of moral responsibilities, they spined the facts shamelessly and now cowardly distance themselves from their statements ... ok they are politicians.
Even more shameful are the medias who ,it seems, did not play their role in promoting integrity and truth in the debate. Many biased opinions were left unchallenged, ideas and lines were not fact checked. The influence of the British tabloids on many to vote Brexit is not to be neglected and this is an outrage.
Even more shameful are the medias who ,it seems, did not play their role in promoting integrity and truth in the debate. Many biased opinions were left unchallenged, ideas and lines were not fact checked. The influence of the British tabloids on many to vote Brexit is not to be neglected and this is an outrage.
22
Perhaps there is a "working model" somewhere in BREXIT for Ted Cruz in in the future. lol.
3
The picture makes Corbyn look like he's being arrested. Is he handcuffed?
5
The US media is in a state about Brexit. It was something to watch today the Sunday political talk shows and observe the nearly frantic state of the "usual suspects." "It can't be! The U.K. must pay for this. Globalization is THE ONLY way! Foreigners ARE NOT taking way the jobs from the Brits." And worst of all, the unsaid cry: "Maybe Donald Trump is right about what people want as to international trade and immigration. Maybe Americans share the sentiment and the anger the Brits feel!" "Oh, no! Britain must fail!"
10
Does the NYT intend to cover the latest about the Clinton emails? Her tech guy refuses to answer any questions, we discover she chose private server for privacy and not 'convenience' as she claimed in an email which was deleted on the server, but the recipient turned it in.
Or do you really think Brexit and Hillary attending the gay pride parade will do?
Or do you really think Brexit and Hillary attending the gay pride parade will do?
26
Not one word about Hill's server on today's political talk shows. Boy, does "the machine" work!
21
This article is about the situation in the UK resulting from the referendum there on whether to leave the UK. It is not about Hillary Clinton, her emails, or anything related. Speak to the subject at hand. If you want to discuss Hillary Clinton's emails, do it where and when it is appropriate to do so.
1
The Times covers news, not manufactured political nonsense. The IT professional's invoking the Fifth Amendment is solely a result of the ongoing FBI investigation, not an admission of wrongdoing. Secretary Clinton's desire for the "convenience" of her system was well-documented. The FBI investigation might result in some embarrassment but won't result in criminal charges, nor should it.
2
You get what you pay for. Watch out America, the same would happen to us if you for il trumpolini.
16
So a bunch of selfish old racists with no idea about financial and trading markets wanted a return it the glory days of the empire and a 'pure British race'. They were sold this idea by a bunch of equally poorly educated and informed people. They will die in 20yrs time clutching to their pensions, baked beans and cups of milk tea whining about the 'glory days' of WWII and the 'Empire'. They will have subjected the future of Britain to a nasty little isolationist mess. Even the inbred, overly patriotic upper class understands the basics of finance and what a devalued pound and real estate does to them. So grow up Britain and even though you might never be Great again, give your future generations a future.
15
Yes, the only cure for supposed racism is Saint Hillary and a dictatorship of the centimillionaire/billionaire class. Let us attempt to pillory the greatest societies of people who created the Western middle class values we now take for granted, ignorantly.
2
So, when the young are denied the choice they sought in England, then the older generation who voted to Brexit are a bunch of "selfish old racist" but when the young in America voted for Sanders in outstanding percentages and the old codgers blocked their vote and instead voted for the status quo (Clinton), then that is okay?
What I hear is that when people do not accept you ideas THEY ARE BAD.
You GOOD, everyone else: BAD.
What I hear is that when people do not accept you ideas THEY ARE BAD.
You GOOD, everyone else: BAD.
Brits have made a 'bloody' mess for their (soon to be smaller) nation's future. On this side of the pond our media motivated by greed are encouraging the same kind of insanity. As an alcoholic once said "my mind kept telling me that I could kill myself and I would just go on living" ala Donald Trump.
7
HUGE election outcome disguised as a protest vote led by people like Johnson to an elderly voting populace, and EXIT leaders will soon back peddle on their socialist promises of more, more, more for everyone. Is the Queen going to give a speech? What about William or Harry (?), don't they represent the future leadership of England? Scotland will leave to stay in the EU if nothing changes, bank on it. In the meantime there will be an internal political war in London over the vote results. Some Americans state this is a big loss for the US President, they forget Cameron is from the CONSERVATIVE PARTY. Duh. Wait till the US vote in Nov for real results, patience please, it will be Clinton BIG. Putin a winner? While Russia spends some of it's small stash of cash on supporting far right, nationalist parties in shaky European countries, I doubt Putin really cares about this vote overall. But the Brits should care, they should care A LOT. It's going to hurt them for MANY YEARS, the damage has been self inflicted already.
2
Only 1/3 of the people voted to remain. The other 2/3 voted to exit or stayed home. You lost. Badly. Please deal with it accordingly.
6
So, 52% to 48% isn't enough for you? You have to try to make it seem like there's more in the numbers than that?
5
No, it's not enough because it's not the whole picture. The remain forces are trying to paint this as a narrow defeat that somehow doesn't reflect the will of the people. That rings pretty hollow when you realize that 2/3 of the country heard their message and still didn't pull their lever.
1
Only 1/3 of electorate voted to leave. So .....
2
just one word for Prime Minister David Cameron: wow.
To be able, in one fell swoop, to undo the fabric of a multicentennial country, of the richest constituency in the world, and of the two main parties of one's country (all this for the most mundane tactical considerations) ... that is an impressive achievement and the certainty of a chosen place in history
To be able, in one fell swoop, to undo the fabric of a multicentennial country, of the richest constituency in the world, and of the two main parties of one's country (all this for the most mundane tactical considerations) ... that is an impressive achievement and the certainty of a chosen place in history
21
There will always be an Eton. Alma mater to both dopey Dave & lying clown coward Johnson, a right pair who deserve each other. Brits elected them & the oligarchy supported them. Now live with the outcome.
1
I'm really sick of people holding up a modern college education as some sort of magically humanizing inoculation. I, too, went to college, and didn't learn anything all that amazing. (My father never went to college and he is way more well-read than a lot of you.) Yet, by your standards, I fall into the category of the "washed." What you are really talking about, when you look down your noses at other people, is about being "college acculturated." It has nothing to do with learning or knowledge, or else all of us would be discussing the socioeconomic subtext of J.M. Coetzee on our lunch hour. The truth is, not a whole lot of actual learning goes on in the typical American college -- yet, it remains the sheep-dip through which all young people must be herded (at life-indenturing expense), or else they and their children and their children's children will get cooties. Or something like that. Calling people "uneducated" is pure and simple snobbery, classist, and is very unenlightened and self-delusional to boot.
71
Most colleges and universities indoctrinate students into lefty liberalism. Of course, there are a tiny number of outliers, places like Bob Jones University or Brigham Young University, which are religious and conservative. But they are like 0.5% of the total.
Ivy Leagues, state universities, most private (non religious) schools are hard left liberal and deeply vested into identity politics, "feminism", socialism, etc.
So when people talk about the 'Unwashed" as you state, they actually mean "unindoctrinated".
I've know brilliant college grads, and ones stupid as a brick. I've know some incredibly well-read, thoughtful, intelligent people who never went to college. The smartest person I've ever known was my grandmother -- born in 1904, immigrated to the US in 1919 at the age of 14 -- an 8th grade education in a convent school BUT she was widely read, and spoke 5 languages fluently.
The lefty elite here would undoubtedly have called her a "stupid low information redneck loser". Yet they think Hillary and Obama are brilliant -- even saint-like, blameless and always perfect.
I believe they are wrong and I will vote accordingly. For what it is worth, I have a 4 year college degree.
Ivy Leagues, state universities, most private (non religious) schools are hard left liberal and deeply vested into identity politics, "feminism", socialism, etc.
So when people talk about the 'Unwashed" as you state, they actually mean "unindoctrinated".
I've know brilliant college grads, and ones stupid as a brick. I've know some incredibly well-read, thoughtful, intelligent people who never went to college. The smartest person I've ever known was my grandmother -- born in 1904, immigrated to the US in 1919 at the age of 14 -- an 8th grade education in a convent school BUT she was widely read, and spoke 5 languages fluently.
The lefty elite here would undoubtedly have called her a "stupid low information redneck loser". Yet they think Hillary and Obama are brilliant -- even saint-like, blameless and always perfect.
I believe they are wrong and I will vote accordingly. For what it is worth, I have a 4 year college degree.
13
Wow. A 4 year college degree. In what subject as a major? From what school? And that proves exactly what about your ability do be logical?
I will call your 4 year college degree (mine is from one of the top 10 universities in the US in a scientific discipline) and raise you a couple of post-graduate degrees, and several professional licenses.
I will call your 4 year college degree (mine is from one of the top 10 universities in the US in a scientific discipline) and raise you a couple of post-graduate degrees, and several professional licenses.
Most college students today are indoctrinated by the left-wing progressives. Those who are conservative must remain silent or suffer the consequences by being either being shunned or receiving poor grades. This is unjust but this is the way it has been for a long time now. The reason Donald Trump is so popular among many people is because he is not afraid to speak his mind. Many of us like him for this reason. We also agree with some of his philosophies and know where he stands on policies. We do not trust Hillary Clinton and her liberal ways.
2
Its too late to change the rules now. But if I were to organize a referendum of such major importance changes I would require 50% + 1 of the total number of eligible voters to constitute passage. Non participation in the voting process, by default, is support for the status quo. This procedure would more fairly (not perfectly) screen the voters to only those who feel confident in their understanding of the issues and consequences providing an indisputable mandate to proceed.
9
"Dear elite Brexiters: you successfully tricked the most ignorant and racist members of your country to vote against their own economic interests!"
Some ask: "How could this commenter KNOW this about people who voted for "Leave."
Turns out the "Leave" voters admitted it. Exit poll after exit poll asked "Leave" voters the same two questions:
1. Are you ignorant?
2. Are you racist?
Surprisingly, well over 90% of "Leave" voters admitted that they were both ignorant and racist -- two-thirds even said they tended to wash less often than most Britons. Less than half said they brushed their teeth every day, and one in three had never even heard of dental floss!
I am not making this up!
The same exit polls asked tough questions of "Remain" voters:
1. Are you smart?
2. Are you racist?
Over 90% of "Remain" voters confirmed that they were smart, and less than 2% said they were racists. Most said they washed at least as much as the average Briton, and 75% said they brushed their teeth at least twice a day. All "Remain" voters claimed to know what dental floss is, and 73% said they used it every day.
I am not making this up!
Some ask: "How could this commenter KNOW this about people who voted for "Leave."
Turns out the "Leave" voters admitted it. Exit poll after exit poll asked "Leave" voters the same two questions:
1. Are you ignorant?
2. Are you racist?
Surprisingly, well over 90% of "Leave" voters admitted that they were both ignorant and racist -- two-thirds even said they tended to wash less often than most Britons. Less than half said they brushed their teeth every day, and one in three had never even heard of dental floss!
I am not making this up!
The same exit polls asked tough questions of "Remain" voters:
1. Are you smart?
2. Are you racist?
Over 90% of "Remain" voters confirmed that they were smart, and less than 2% said they were racists. Most said they washed at least as much as the average Briton, and 75% said they brushed their teeth at least twice a day. All "Remain" voters claimed to know what dental floss is, and 73% said they used it every day.
I am not making this up!
7
You have to be making this up. Although the 2nd most googled item in the UK last Thursday was " what is the EU?"
And I'm not making that up
And I'm not making that up
And of course, you can post links to where the results of these "polls" as well as the actual polls themselves, are located?
This is some fallout from the George Bush / Tony Blair fiasco called, Iraqi Freedom, and the misguided Afghanistan policy.
6
Not everything is about W or Iraq. Get over it already, Steve.
6
That's an enormous stretch. Britain entered the EU in 1975, which was an awfully long time before Bush or Blair or 9/11 or any of their war policies.
8
People trusted the experts... George W. Bush and Tony Blair and all their Ivy League and Oxford and Cambridge advisers. Those experts were wrong. Dead wrong. The destabilization of the Middle East, Iraq in particular, leading to the destabilization of Syria and the rise of ISIS has lead to the mass immigration problem both here and in the European Union. The damage done by Bush and Blair will reverberate for a long time.
5
The Brexit is a direct result of Conservatives playing "chicken" with their country's economy, future, and well being, all in the name of trying to placate reactionaries in their base.
Sound familiar to Americans? (Think Ted Cruz's reckless government shutdown).
There are people in office now who so hate the task of governing they'd just as soon run us all into a wall to make a political statement or prove a demogogic point.
England is waking up with a hangover that could last the remainder of the century.
Please let's not do that here.
Sound familiar to Americans? (Think Ted Cruz's reckless government shutdown).
There are people in office now who so hate the task of governing they'd just as soon run us all into a wall to make a political statement or prove a demogogic point.
England is waking up with a hangover that could last the remainder of the century.
Please let's not do that here.
19
This is a miserable world where the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, the young and old are filled with rising hatred for each other, talentless slobs become famous for no reason, where medical errors cause a third of all deaths, and meaningless tweaks to iPhones are passed off as profound technological leaps by smarmy white guys. It was like this before the Brexit vote and will be after. But it surely wasn't going to get any better the way things were.
15
How about "by smarmy guys"? Was the white part necessary?
3
Thanks, Britain. Just what we !@%$! needed.
Hint to the United States: this is what you get when you listen to demagogues...
Hint to the United States: this is what you get when you listen to demagogues...
12
Referendums with enormous consequences should require 60% approval to demonstrate a clear mandate. This referendum deteriorated into a U.S style election with demagoguery, lies, obfuscation aimed at the disgruntled. It seems a lot of the voters are just finding out what they actually voted for. I remember many times when voting on referendums, they would word it in such a way that a no vote really meant yes. It is a non binding referendum.
11
Mr. Fabbricatore: if the "Remain" issue had won by 4% of the vote -- with about a 72% turnout -- would you still ask for a 60% majority? or a "do over"?
No, because it would have gone "your way".
The demands for higher majorities and do-overs is purely bad sportsmanship. You lost. Suck it up.
No, because it would have gone "your way".
The demands for higher majorities and do-overs is purely bad sportsmanship. You lost. Suck it up.
9
Didn't you notice I live in Florida? I had no dog in the fight so ." I did not lose anything nor did I mention anything about a do over. In most states in the US, ballot initiatives CHANGING a current system or law require a 60% majority. Amending the US Constitution requires 3/4 approval of the 50 states. I don't know how they do things in Anywheresville.
9
When a person is sick, doctors don't do what the person asks them to do. They do what they think is best. Likewise, Britain should ignore the results of the referendum, do what the economists have always been saying, and stay with the EU. The implications wouldn't be severe, because 48% of the voters voted to stay, and more than a few "leave" voters are regretting their vote. Going along with this insanity, even after seeing the consequences, would be supremely stupid.
18
So....basically, the voters are "too stupid" to know how they voted, and they have no right to determine their own future.
Also: democracy is clearly a joke in your eyes, and it should be abandoned in favor of a benevolent (COUGH, COUGH) dictatorship....run by lefties, of course. Who know better than the rest of us.
Since Mitt Romney got 48% of the vote, I guess you think he should be US President and not Barack Obama. After all, it is pretty close to winning, isn't it? and 48% of the people would be happy.
(In fact, doctors are obligated to follow patient orders, and not permitted to administer medical treatment against a patient's will.)
Also: democracy is clearly a joke in your eyes, and it should be abandoned in favor of a benevolent (COUGH, COUGH) dictatorship....run by lefties, of course. Who know better than the rest of us.
Since Mitt Romney got 48% of the vote, I guess you think he should be US President and not Barack Obama. After all, it is pretty close to winning, isn't it? and 48% of the people would be happy.
(In fact, doctors are obligated to follow patient orders, and not permitted to administer medical treatment against a patient's will.)
22
Since the referendum is non binding, yes, responsible political leaders should reverse it and fall on their swords if necessary for the good of the country.
Doctors are not going to administer treatment that they believe will cause a patient harm, even if the patient asks for it.
1
We all know what's going to happen, so sit back and watch closely.
The One Percenter Globalists want their way--so Brexit, the will of the people of Britain, will be nibbled, gnawed, chewed, slashed at, ridiculed, demeaned, and "polled" until it's dead. Last week Brexit, if it happened, was reputed to be the end of the world. Now it seems there's all kinds of ways to get around it, and the One Percenter Globalists are busy chipping away and pulling strings as usual.
Face it: there's no winning against the immensely rich and powerful, especially when they own the Mainstream Media outright.
One can only hope the Revolution comes soon for Britain and the rest of the EU. And in the USA, too, for that matter. Meanwhile, stay tuned: you're about to witness oligarchy in action.
The One Percenter Globalists want their way--so Brexit, the will of the people of Britain, will be nibbled, gnawed, chewed, slashed at, ridiculed, demeaned, and "polled" until it's dead. Last week Brexit, if it happened, was reputed to be the end of the world. Now it seems there's all kinds of ways to get around it, and the One Percenter Globalists are busy chipping away and pulling strings as usual.
Face it: there's no winning against the immensely rich and powerful, especially when they own the Mainstream Media outright.
One can only hope the Revolution comes soon for Britain and the rest of the EU. And in the USA, too, for that matter. Meanwhile, stay tuned: you're about to witness oligarchy in action.
22
Listen to comments here! boy, it is an eye opener.
Lefties believe that their side was morally right, so the VOTES OF THE PEOPLE OF GREAT BRITAIN should be ignored or overturned -- the elites know what it is best. Or the rules should be changed, after the fact, to require a 60% or 75% majority -- whatever number ensures nothing can ever change.
They want another vote, because surely, THIS TIME, the people will vote the way their elite masters want.
Oh, and the referendum is NON BINDING now, all of a sudden -- of course, if it had gone the other way, and "Remain" had won, then it would be 100% binding and no do overs.
Lefties believe that their side was morally right, so the VOTES OF THE PEOPLE OF GREAT BRITAIN should be ignored or overturned -- the elites know what it is best. Or the rules should be changed, after the fact, to require a 60% or 75% majority -- whatever number ensures nothing can ever change.
They want another vote, because surely, THIS TIME, the people will vote the way their elite masters want.
Oh, and the referendum is NON BINDING now, all of a sudden -- of course, if it had gone the other way, and "Remain" had won, then it would be 100% binding and no do overs.
9
Yes the People can win. But we must stop letting them divide us, stand together and fight for real democracy.
In January of this year - the Labor shadow minister Jonathan Reynolds resigned when Corbyn reshuffled his cabinet and sacked a different shadow minister. You might say Corbyn and his cabinet has been wobbly for months - regardless of what was going on with Brexit. Brexit just accelerated this dynamic. The Tories are very lucky that Labor seems to be in such a state.
6
By PHILIPPE LEGRAIN, JUNE 26, 2016
"Britain has the least regulated labor markets in the European Union and the second-least regulated product markets, so any potential benefits from deregulation are likely to be meager. Moreover, Britain is likely to end up with worse access to markets in the rest of the world. While it won’t be hamstrung by protectionist interests in the European Union, its relatively smaller economy, largely open markets and desperation for new deals will weaken its clout in trade negotiations." All this while they were the #1 economic power in the EU (due to their FORMER stability and Alliances) that COULD have made the changes to the EU rules on their petty grievances. I say 'petty' because what they have done is so much more profound than the grievances they 'suffered' within the EU. They claim all this money was given to the EU, but in reality, when you look at the figures, the very communities that voted to leave received SUBSTANTIAL money from the EU. This was poorly handled by the political leaders in England. The Remainers - people of the UK on the right side of history and stability, the very assets the UK HAD, are absolutely correct - they were royally duped. And far more than Englanders are paying an enormous price now as equities markets are tumbling in the trillions already and into the foreseeable future.
"Britain has the least regulated labor markets in the European Union and the second-least regulated product markets, so any potential benefits from deregulation are likely to be meager. Moreover, Britain is likely to end up with worse access to markets in the rest of the world. While it won’t be hamstrung by protectionist interests in the European Union, its relatively smaller economy, largely open markets and desperation for new deals will weaken its clout in trade negotiations." All this while they were the #1 economic power in the EU (due to their FORMER stability and Alliances) that COULD have made the changes to the EU rules on their petty grievances. I say 'petty' because what they have done is so much more profound than the grievances they 'suffered' within the EU. They claim all this money was given to the EU, but in reality, when you look at the figures, the very communities that voted to leave received SUBSTANTIAL money from the EU. This was poorly handled by the political leaders in England. The Remainers - people of the UK on the right side of history and stability, the very assets the UK HAD, are absolutely correct - they were royally duped. And far more than Englanders are paying an enormous price now as equities markets are tumbling in the trillions already and into the foreseeable future.
5
That is quite silly, as it is only a day now and you cannot possibly tell if the markets will correct themselves very shortly (as I believe they will).
4
Concerned
Thanks for sticking your neck out.
Somebody else commented that the Nikkei, Japanese market, was up 225 this morning. Now it is up 300. Unfortunately, he forgot to mention that the Nikkei went DOWN 1000 (one thousand) on Friday.
Success. Up 300 after going down 1000. Pyrrhic victory. Yay!!
12:22AM Sunday June 27th eastern
Thanks for sticking your neck out.
Somebody else commented that the Nikkei, Japanese market, was up 225 this morning. Now it is up 300. Unfortunately, he forgot to mention that the Nikkei went DOWN 1000 (one thousand) on Friday.
Success. Up 300 after going down 1000. Pyrrhic victory. Yay!!
12:22AM Sunday June 27th eastern
The least UK can do now is to clean up its mess by immediately invoking Article 50 and starting the formal withdrawal process. There may not be a stipulated time frame for invoking Article 50 but a departing member is expected to consider the interest of the remaining membersact and act in good faith. Any attempt to act against such expectation and exploit the procedural loophole in order to gain leverage in withdrawal negotiation or domestic political bickering will not only be another kick in the groin of Europe and the rest of the world, but also create further confusion and instability which the world certainly doesn't need. Brexit does not mean that UK is now an island totally disconnected from the world.
9
I wonder what the fallout here will be in November, if our homegrown version of Brexit - electing Trump as President - comes to pass. If the British are capable of such an enormously stupid decision, little doubt that we are, too.
6
What economic union would we be withdrawing from? Would electing Trump disband the entire US and invalidate the Constitution or something?
The similarities are that each situation reflects government and ELITES who refuse to listen to average voters.
The similarities are that each situation reflects government and ELITES who refuse to listen to average voters.
8
No, the only similarity is doing something really stupid and destructive for emotional and irrational reasons.
1
Dear elite Brexiters: you successfully tricked the most ignorant and racist members of your country to vote against their own economic interests! Congratulations! Now that they are finding out that you lied about that "no more immigration" thing, what are you going to do when they come to your house with pitchforks?
Dear the rest of the Brexiters: you were told that Brexit would keep all the brown people out. Now that you know that was a bold-faced lie, what are you going to do with all those elites like Boris? Don't be too hard on them, they only think you are slightly stupider than you actually are.
Dear the rest of the Brexiters: you were told that Brexit would keep all the brown people out. Now that you know that was a bold-faced lie, what are you going to do with all those elites like Boris? Don't be too hard on them, they only think you are slightly stupider than you actually are.
24
I do not see how anyone could connect this with "brown people" of any sort.
White people in England have long considered Indians to be "black" (not brown) anyhow. And Indians, Pakistanis, Africans -- they are part of the British Empire. The Brexist could not remotely have any effect on them. They are citizens.
People coming over from the European continent must be overwhelmingly white -- from Eastern Europe. Turkey, Greece, Poland and so on.
Whatever it is that people thought, it could not possibly be "getting rid of those with brown skin".
That is an obsession of liberals in the US, as their identity politics is fastened very closely to the idea of racism and "brown skinned peoples of the world" and claiming that "hispanic or latino are RACES" when in fact, they are languages and cultures.
White people in England have long considered Indians to be "black" (not brown) anyhow. And Indians, Pakistanis, Africans -- they are part of the British Empire. The Brexist could not remotely have any effect on them. They are citizens.
People coming over from the European continent must be overwhelmingly white -- from Eastern Europe. Turkey, Greece, Poland and so on.
Whatever it is that people thought, it could not possibly be "getting rid of those with brown skin".
That is an obsession of liberals in the US, as their identity politics is fastened very closely to the idea of racism and "brown skinned peoples of the world" and claiming that "hispanic or latino are RACES" when in fact, they are languages and cultures.
8
I hate to say the arrogance of the British Empire did itself this time. Now, Scotland has realistic chance of breakup and why not Northern Ireland. Why can't London be a City State. When the Venitian were able to establish and lasted 1,100 years, why can't the Londoners? Sure the British still can cherish old glorious memories of the Sun Never Set on the British Empire.
4
I find myself perplexed by all the references to the British Empire. Britain has not been an empire for a very long time, and imperial politics has had almost no influence on the debate, pro or con.
4
With Brexit causing dissensions and split in the ruling and opposition parties, and Cameron leaving the formal withdrawal legal intricacies to the successor, the second referendum on the Brexit can't be ruled out. Even many Brexit enthusiasts among the masses, who had voted for leaving the EU without much thought, might rethink the folly now.
5
I much prefer this to "Game of Thrones"!
3
I don't because this effects our 401K's and the US economy.
3
Quite the soap opera.
As best I can tell, the Brexit vote shouldn't count because:
1. Everyone who voted for "Leave" is stupid and doesn't wash very much, and so their votes shouldn't count.
2. Something so important shouldn't be decided by a simply majority vote -- unless, of course, "Remain" had won, in which case a simple majority would be sufficient.
3. Since this referendum was "only advisory," there's no good reason not to hold another one. If "Leave" wins again, there won''t be any good reason not to hold a third, or a fourth, or a fifth, until "Remain" wins -- after which, of course, there will be no good reason to hold another referendum since that last one will be binding.
4. "Leave" votes shouldn't count because the "Leave" voters were fed nothing but lies (and they're stupid and unwashed to boot -- did I mention that?), whereas the "Remain" voters were told nothing but truths by "Remain" proponents.
5. Last but not least, a 52-48 vote is so close that it should be ignored. If it had been 52-48 the other way, of course, that would have been a "landslide" that must be respected -- the people's will and that sort of thing.
Is that pretty much it?
1. Everyone who voted for "Leave" is stupid and doesn't wash very much, and so their votes shouldn't count.
2. Something so important shouldn't be decided by a simply majority vote -- unless, of course, "Remain" had won, in which case a simple majority would be sufficient.
3. Since this referendum was "only advisory," there's no good reason not to hold another one. If "Leave" wins again, there won''t be any good reason not to hold a third, or a fourth, or a fifth, until "Remain" wins -- after which, of course, there will be no good reason to hold another referendum since that last one will be binding.
4. "Leave" votes shouldn't count because the "Leave" voters were fed nothing but lies (and they're stupid and unwashed to boot -- did I mention that?), whereas the "Remain" voters were told nothing but truths by "Remain" proponents.
5. Last but not least, a 52-48 vote is so close that it should be ignored. If it had been 52-48 the other way, of course, that would have been a "landslide" that must be respected -- the people's will and that sort of thing.
Is that pretty much it?
291
Excellent summation!
8
6. Rock, paper, scissors.
7
@MyThreeCents: if I had a dollar for every time I have read a lefty liberal in these forums, stating that "Obama won by a LANDSLIDE (in 2008 or 2012)....I would be a millionaire.
Obama won by....52% of the vote (2012).
Funny, how the same number for "Leave" is NOT a landslide, but a sliver of the vote, doesn't count and must be done over until the result is elite-approved.
Obama won by....52% of the vote (2012).
Funny, how the same number for "Leave" is NOT a landslide, but a sliver of the vote, doesn't count and must be done over until the result is elite-approved.
10
"...Circumventing the clear will of British voters would appear politically problematic for whoever succeeds Mr. Cameron." Perhaps not so problematic as all that. The voter turnout was only 72.2%. That sounds like a lot, compared to the dismal turnouts Americans are used to, but it means, in fact, that only 37.5% of the British electorate voted for Leave. That isn't much of a mandate, if it's any at all. No government should think the way barred to renegotiating EU membership, especially if the new deal were itself to be put to a plebiscite.
84
That is how democracy works.
I am pretty surprised you do not realize this.
I am pretty surprised you do not realize this.
10
This is how democracy works when it's not working very well. I'm pretty surprised you do not realize the referendum isn't legally binding. Well, not that surprized...
4
Exactly. What "clear will" is beyond me.
I think there is danger in labeling any dissent about recent mass migration as "racism" and "xenophobia" and ignorance. There are limits for a society to be able to adapt to the magnitude of change currently underway, both in Europe and the U.S., and shutting down discussion via slurs on the character of the fearful, converts fear into anger.
Any reading in the comments section of this publication, reveals ample concern among those who self identify as "liberal", over our own illegal immigration numbers, no matter how diligently the NY TIMES uses the euphemism "undocumented".
Those making the decisions on these dramatic changes, are living in bubbles of wealth and privilege, unaffected by the shattering alterations to communities. I grow tired of admonitions to just sing kumbaya, and all will be fine; or worse, that I am evil for my worries.
Any reading in the comments section of this publication, reveals ample concern among those who self identify as "liberal", over our own illegal immigration numbers, no matter how diligently the NY TIMES uses the euphemism "undocumented".
Those making the decisions on these dramatic changes, are living in bubbles of wealth and privilege, unaffected by the shattering alterations to communities. I grow tired of admonitions to just sing kumbaya, and all will be fine; or worse, that I am evil for my worries.
16
Absolutely. It's not unlike The Times Editorial Board having plenty of protection at all its locations while advocating against guns (and for open borders and "tolerance"). Or, for that matter, NY liberals calling everyone else "racist" and "intolerant" while they live in the most segregated neighborhoods and send their kids to private and/or segregated schools.
That bubble provides a luxury that most people don't have. The worst is their looking down on people who don't live in bubbles for expressing their feelings about conditions in the real world.
That bubble provides a luxury that most people don't have. The worst is their looking down on people who don't live in bubbles for expressing their feelings about conditions in the real world.
If voters are having second thoughts about separation, as IMHO they should be, the obvious solution appears to me to be an orchestrated vote of no confidence in the current government, and new elections that would revisit both the EU question, and the underlying issues driving voter discontent.
Let me strongly suggest that when British conservatives aped our American reactionaries by insisting on "austerity" as the remedy for elite complicity in the world financial swindle, their victims became ever more disenchanted with their lot in life, and retreated to an ill-conceived style of nationalism - much like the tragically deluded souls supporting Drumpf in America.
But the welfare state is the epitome of 20th-21st century nationalism - and if voters are angry at anyone, they should be angry at the conservatives who used their complicity in the world financial swindle as an opportunity to impose a completely inappropriate austerity remedy on a people who bore little, if any, blame for the original crisis.
The Churchill quote already cited in these comment is very much on point here, inasmuch as an educated, critical thinking electorate is clearly the magic bullet in every thriving democracy - with a reactive, emotionally resentful, easy-to-mislead electorate its inevitable undoing.
Let me strongly suggest that when British conservatives aped our American reactionaries by insisting on "austerity" as the remedy for elite complicity in the world financial swindle, their victims became ever more disenchanted with their lot in life, and retreated to an ill-conceived style of nationalism - much like the tragically deluded souls supporting Drumpf in America.
But the welfare state is the epitome of 20th-21st century nationalism - and if voters are angry at anyone, they should be angry at the conservatives who used their complicity in the world financial swindle as an opportunity to impose a completely inappropriate austerity remedy on a people who bore little, if any, blame for the original crisis.
The Churchill quote already cited in these comment is very much on point here, inasmuch as an educated, critical thinking electorate is clearly the magic bullet in every thriving democracy - with a reactive, emotionally resentful, easy-to-mislead electorate its inevitable undoing.
7
The NY Times is reporting that some of the BREXIT advocates (Farage, Johnson, Hannan) are now saying that they will have to cut back on what they were promising to the Leave voters.
It will be interesting to see how these angry voters will respond when they find out that the promises these "leaders" that they wer following are unattainable. I am guessing that the response will not be pretty.
It will be interesting to see how these angry voters will respond when they find out that the promises these "leaders" that they wer following are unattainable. I am guessing that the response will not be pretty.
12
Maybe it will be guillotines and tumbrels. ... Oh, wait, .... That was the FRENCH Revolution ..... But people are ANGRY.
A hope the UK slows down. The EU realizing its political and policy mistakes over the mass migrations, and the EU is dissolved and becomes the common market again. The UK revotes and agrees to join the common market.
2
Yes, very little mention of any adjustment on the EU's part that would make it more attractive to the UK. Instead, silly "divorce now" rhetoric.
EU leadership has made its share of mistakes. Certainly, Merkel has with her immigration decisions. A bit more focus on what the EU has to do would be useful.
The EU cannot afford to be reactive and/or punitive. It may face future scenarios like this and should think carefully about what it needs to do to change. This is business, not personal.
EU leadership has made its share of mistakes. Certainly, Merkel has with her immigration decisions. A bit more focus on what the EU has to do would be useful.
The EU cannot afford to be reactive and/or punitive. It may face future scenarios like this and should think carefully about what it needs to do to change. This is business, not personal.
The "leave" vote was prompted by fears and massive lies by the leaders in the Leave movement, which now they are admitting because they have to back up their claims: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/27/world/europe/having-won-some-brexit-ca...
Our presidential race suddenly has a challenger for the title of the most lie-filled election in the free world.
Our presidential race suddenly has a challenger for the title of the most lie-filled election in the free world.
5
What a mess! It looks like another annus horribilis for the Queen and The United Kingdom of Great Britain.
2
PM Cameron should have called an election so there could basically be another referendum on the Brexit via parliamentary elections. Seems quite possible both the Tories and Labor would put up Remain candidates. Leave proponents have been exposed lying about their "promises" so they would be in weakened positions in a new election.
2
"I don’t see any principled reason why they can’t hold another referendum. "
Do you see any "principled reason" why they can't hold a third, or a fourth, or a fifth?
Do you see any "principled reason" why they can't hold a third, or a fourth, or a fifth?
14
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's hold a few other elections a second time--like George Bush's big contested win. And how about Hillary Clinton's winning caucuses and primaries? Bernie Sanders was held back shamelessly by the Mainstream Media--ignored, ridiculed, you name it. He caught fire toward the end as he became better known and as Hillary herself became--shall we say?--better known as well. Let's have a replay of all these. A rematch of Carter-Reagan would be great as well, but Ronnie is long gone, and Nancy too.
6
“why they can't hold a third, or a fourth”
A second vote would not have the defects of last week’s vote.
The 52-48 vote to leave seems a pretty soft, muddly mandate, where much of the argument for departure was based on prevarication and fraud -- the vastly misstated figures for the payments to the EU, the now-admittedly false claim that the supposed savings would fund the popular NHS, the crude manipulation of anti-immigrant sentiment -- and since many who voted for Brexit only now understand the consequences of that vote, as they did not earlier, when the opponents were weak and incompetent in their opposition.
There is no good reason to hold the original, deeply flawed result sacrosanct. A second vote, even in the unlikely event it went the same way, would have more credibility and be much less subject to criticism.
If there is a sufficient groundswell for a revote, they should have one.
A second vote would not have the defects of last week’s vote.
The 52-48 vote to leave seems a pretty soft, muddly mandate, where much of the argument for departure was based on prevarication and fraud -- the vastly misstated figures for the payments to the EU, the now-admittedly false claim that the supposed savings would fund the popular NHS, the crude manipulation of anti-immigrant sentiment -- and since many who voted for Brexit only now understand the consequences of that vote, as they did not earlier, when the opponents were weak and incompetent in their opposition.
There is no good reason to hold the original, deeply flawed result sacrosanct. A second vote, even in the unlikely event it went the same way, would have more credibility and be much less subject to criticism.
If there is a sufficient groundswell for a revote, they should have one.
Of course. The principal reason for a revote is that his side lost. If it were to win, even on a 4th or 5th try, even with 50.001% of the vote, there would be no 'principled' reason to have another go
The banks, the media and the elites are freaking out.
It must have been the right choice.
It must have been the right choice.
59
That lot would love to do away with the democratic process if they could. You see, it's very inconvenient to have democracy interfere with their plans to rule the world. After all, the elites know best. It looks like they'll have to do something about universal suffrage very soon - it's starting to work against them. If only they could find a way to require voters to have a college degree. Better make sure no one over 35 gets to vote either.
3
"The banks, the media, and the elites are freaking out.
It must have been the right choice."
That bears repeating.
It must have been the right choice."
That bears repeating.
2
Ok.
The banks, the media and the elites are freaking out.
It must have been the right choice.
Thank You
The banks, the media and the elites are freaking out.
It must have been the right choice.
Thank You
2
Good luck Britain. Scotland and every other part of Great Britain will be welcomed to stay inside the EU as independent nations, but I guess the English have taken their choice.
"or that somehow the Europeans will just bend to the British will and grant the nation privileges no other country has to block immigration of other European Union citizens."
If I may quote the Sex Pistols ... "God save the Queen, I mean it man, there is no future in Englands dreaming".
"or that somehow the Europeans will just bend to the British will and grant the nation privileges no other country has to block immigration of other European Union citizens."
If I may quote the Sex Pistols ... "God save the Queen, I mean it man, there is no future in Englands dreaming".
Looks like the Great Game is going into extra innings -- and its a home game this time -- more exciting than the Zikalympics!
5
David Cameron abdicated his leadership responsibility by allowing an uninformed electorate to decide this extremely complex and nuanced matter. He was elected to make the tough decisions and instead tossed the ball to his minions and said 'you decide'. Those who did decide, did so based mostly on emotion, not fact because who among them was even remotely qualified to understand the micro and macro aspects of global economics or the concept of unintended consequences. What a disaster.
5
Your reply reminds of when Leonna Helmsley said only the little people pay taxes. Utterly elitist
8
So basically, Curious Cat -- you do not believe in democracy? but instead a benevolent dictatorship of "correct-thinking" liberal elites?
5
Now is the time for the States in the US to start breaking away from the tyrants in DC. The criminal elite class has been stealing our labor and dividing it up with themselves and their friends and then telling us how we are going to live our lives. Let's start taking steps to secede from these thieves.
6
Those of us in the BLUE states who pay in more than $1 in tax money for every $1 that we get back from Washington will be overjoyed to see the RED states leave, since they suck more than $1 in federal money for every dollar in taxes that they pay.
They have the audacity to be AGAINST income redistribution, when they are benefitting from it every year.
Good riddance. How soon can we cut you guys loose?
They have the audacity to be AGAINST income redistribution, when they are benefitting from it every year.
Good riddance. How soon can we cut you guys loose?
25
@Joe from Boston: a favorite lefty talking point, but not correct.
Those numbers are skewed heavily by two things:
1. You are counting money for military bases, salaries, etc. which are mostly in Red States.
2. You are counting benefits like SS and Medicare flowing to RETIREES ... who move from Blue states to Red states, to enjoy nice warm weather in their old age.
Those numbers are skewed heavily by two things:
1. You are counting money for military bases, salaries, etc. which are mostly in Red States.
2. You are counting benefits like SS and Medicare flowing to RETIREES ... who move from Blue states to Red states, to enjoy nice warm weather in their old age.
4
Secessionitis. Considered eradicated in 1865, it's the disease that never completely goes away.
2
Maybe there are some "stay" voters who weren't all that well informed and who are having second thoughts as well. Why assume all the second guessing is being experienced by the "leave" voters?
Sounds like a lot of people are having difficulty accepting the results of the vote.
Sounds like a lot of people are having difficulty accepting the results of the vote.
16
Really... you'd think that the "Remain" camp would spend less energy on sneering at "Leave" voters and more energy at asking their own young people why the hell they didn't vote...
4
It is truly amazing and amusing, based on several intelligent, insightful, fair and accurate analyses, that the disgruntled population of UK, mostly White and mostly above 55, have taken their anger on EU over issues that EU is not fully responsible for, or are not responsible for at all. For people so eager to exercise their democratic rights and independence on such a serious matter, it appears the "Leave" Brits (now known as Leaverts or BeLeavers) did not read up well on the issues that mattered to them. It appears most of them would not know how to spell macro-economics, let alone understand it. And EU got it right when they say, "Make haste UK! We cannot be dealing with your arrogant dilly-dallying, and allow you to hold the other 27 countries hostage because your mood changed! It is not all about YOU!"
As the EU higher commands are notorious for spinelessness, this may drag on for months, sending everyone spiraling downward. If this was America as the EU and Texas as the UK, then the US would have sent its army to make sure Texas got out fast and stopped creating a drama after deciding officially to secede. No do over here. Cameron made that clear while he was campaigning for the "Remain" side. What did the Brits think? This was some kind of "fun trial-referendum"? IT IS FINAL. DEAL WITH IT! And send the Article 50 to the EU now!
The Brits were never known for theatrics, now Shakespeare seems lame compared to British politics. The Empire ended several decades ago.
As the EU higher commands are notorious for spinelessness, this may drag on for months, sending everyone spiraling downward. If this was America as the EU and Texas as the UK, then the US would have sent its army to make sure Texas got out fast and stopped creating a drama after deciding officially to secede. No do over here. Cameron made that clear while he was campaigning for the "Remain" side. What did the Brits think? This was some kind of "fun trial-referendum"? IT IS FINAL. DEAL WITH IT! And send the Article 50 to the EU now!
The Brits were never known for theatrics, now Shakespeare seems lame compared to British politics. The Empire ended several decades ago.
1
are you arguing with yourself here? Does it happen often?
5
"now known as Leaverts or BeLeaver"
can we just shorten that to Leave it to Beaver's?
can we just shorten that to Leave it to Beaver's?
7
I don't see this vote as a rejection of the original purpose of the EU-which was to form an economic union and create greater, stronger ties between the various countries. I think Brexit is a rejection, primarily of Angela Merkel and the reaction of the EU to the misery in Greece, letting Greek pensioners starve, while bringing in millions of young refugees and providing them full benefits.
Wasn't the purpose of the EU to benefit it's constituent citizens before others??
Wasn't the purpose of the EU to benefit it's constituent citizens before others??
8
While it is certain that there will be a period of adjustment, I'm sure that while the globalist talking heads threaten disaster, business people were already starting to adjust on Thursday evening as the vote came in.
Economies are remarkably resilient. The winners and losers will be different after Brexit, but perhaps that is the point. All that globalization promise came to nothing for many, so maybe those folks voted to make the elite join their club. Perhaps if they had shared their gains instead of profiting from others misery the vote would have been different.
Economies are remarkably resilient. The winners and losers will be different after Brexit, but perhaps that is the point. All that globalization promise came to nothing for many, so maybe those folks voted to make the elite join their club. Perhaps if they had shared their gains instead of profiting from others misery the vote would have been different.
7
It's becoming clear that the Brexit vote was a protest against unchecked immigration and the dominance by Germany of the EU, made without consideration for the consequences. Now that those consequences have become evident and the critics of Brexit can no longer be characterized as fearmongers, there are many who regret the night before on the morning after. Brexit may mean the dissolution, not merely of the EU, but also of the UK. Moreover, it seems that to control the damage caused by the British exit, the EU will move quickly to make the referendum a "done deal."
I wonder how Americans who are voting for Donald Trump, thrilled to give elites and establishment types the "middle finger," will react to the disaster that is descending upon the British populists? American markets will feel the effects of Brexistas well. The falling pound will not mean, as Donald Trump blithely predicted, more golfers in Scotland; it will mean fewer British tourists in FL and NYC; fewer British investors for American ventures abroad and at home; an unstable European economy; fluctuations in currency values; and political and economic advantages for the Russians and Chinese.
All to give a raspberry to a few rich jerks, wave a flag, beat a chest and protest an immigration policy that was most likely open to negotiation.
I know Trump voters; I grew up with them. I ask them, is it really worth the short term thrill of a "bleep you, take that!" to elect a moron as President of the U.S.?
I wonder how Americans who are voting for Donald Trump, thrilled to give elites and establishment types the "middle finger," will react to the disaster that is descending upon the British populists? American markets will feel the effects of Brexistas well. The falling pound will not mean, as Donald Trump blithely predicted, more golfers in Scotland; it will mean fewer British tourists in FL and NYC; fewer British investors for American ventures abroad and at home; an unstable European economy; fluctuations in currency values; and political and economic advantages for the Russians and Chinese.
All to give a raspberry to a few rich jerks, wave a flag, beat a chest and protest an immigration policy that was most likely open to negotiation.
I know Trump voters; I grew up with them. I ask them, is it really worth the short term thrill of a "bleep you, take that!" to elect a moron as President of the U.S.?
27
It's better than electing a known liar, crook and "under investigation" loser like HIllary Clinton.
4
Yeah, the immigration policy WAS open to negotiation, and Cameron in fact got concessions on it from Brussels earlier in the year -- which are now null and void on the basis of his brilliant referendum (because it was written into the deal that it would become null and void if Britain left the EU). And the joke of it is that now the Brits will NEVER get concessions on freedom of movement if they want to continue to trade with the EU. Truly brilliantly executed.
Repeating slander about Clinton will not make Trump a viable candidate.
1
Ah yes, let the people decide the fate of Britain - and Europe - with a simple in/out vote ...
A day before the referendum, a patient waited nervously as his doctor returned with results. "How's it look, Doc?"
"It's serious. You need surgery right away" said the doctor. "You have two options, the choice is yours:
1. An en bloc anterior temporal lobectomy, with limited neocortical resection from the temporal pole, or
2. A selective amygdalohippocampectomy via the transsylvian method"
"Hmm" said the patient. "I'll go with the first one, but when you're done remind me how to spell that second one so I can Google it. Thanks Dr. Hussein, and remember to vote Leave tomorrow so we can take our country back!"
As Michael Gove put it: "People in this country have had enough of experts."
A day before the referendum, a patient waited nervously as his doctor returned with results. "How's it look, Doc?"
"It's serious. You need surgery right away" said the doctor. "You have two options, the choice is yours:
1. An en bloc anterior temporal lobectomy, with limited neocortical resection from the temporal pole, or
2. A selective amygdalohippocampectomy via the transsylvian method"
"Hmm" said the patient. "I'll go with the first one, but when you're done remind me how to spell that second one so I can Google it. Thanks Dr. Hussein, and remember to vote Leave tomorrow so we can take our country back!"
As Michael Gove put it: "People in this country have had enough of experts."
5
Britain will flourish outside of the EU but still have the benefits of trade with Germany, France, Italy, etc. Does anyone think that BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi, Ferrari, Fiat, etc are going to stop selling cars in Britain? Does anyone think that their host countries, like Germany, want layoffs because they don't sell those cars? Most of the minor EU countries are a rounding error but they certainly are noisy as they see Germany perhaps really start to crack down on their fiscal irresponsibility.
All this hot air is about politicians, elitists and 1%'s in Brussels and London losing control and power and scrambling for a new normal. And a lot of media hype.
If anyone would bother looking at the voting pattern there is a linear relationship between age and voting to leave. This was not a bifurcated result as reported in the media with the old dictating to the young how to live and the middle undecided. This was a strong vote to leave as the people with the most invested in society opting to leave.
If wisdom comes with age this was a textbook example as age and experience seemed to drive an increasing conclusion that it's time to get off the EU boat. Furthermore if past is prologue the youngest demographics will eventually evolve to vote in leaving the EU as well. Over time the vast majority end up in the same place which is "get out."
All this hot air is about politicians, elitists and 1%'s in Brussels and London losing control and power and scrambling for a new normal. And a lot of media hype.
If anyone would bother looking at the voting pattern there is a linear relationship between age and voting to leave. This was not a bifurcated result as reported in the media with the old dictating to the young how to live and the middle undecided. This was a strong vote to leave as the people with the most invested in society opting to leave.
If wisdom comes with age this was a textbook example as age and experience seemed to drive an increasing conclusion that it's time to get off the EU boat. Furthermore if past is prologue the youngest demographics will eventually evolve to vote in leaving the EU as well. Over time the vast majority end up in the same place which is "get out."
7
In 2008, Congress voted against TARP. The next day, the markets fell precipitously. Congress took the hint, and voted again. TARP actually worked out reasonably well, and it ended a crisis that likely would have resulted in a depression. The world markets have again signaled that Brexit is bad economics. A 52/48 voit is hardly a decisive vote representing the will of the people. And the consequences may well have not been obvious to many, including those who Googled EU the next day. A revote would not be unreasonable under the circumstances.
6
In 2012, Barack Obama got 52% of the vote vs. Mitt Romney who got 48%.
Did you consider THAT decisive? Or should we have had do-over after do-over?
I've heard countless liberals call that election a "landslide" in favor of Obama.
But somehow in the UK, it is "hardly a decisive vote".
BTW: TARP was a giant rip off that protected the banksters and corrupt corporations.
Did you consider THAT decisive? Or should we have had do-over after do-over?
I've heard countless liberals call that election a "landslide" in favor of Obama.
But somehow in the UK, it is "hardly a decisive vote".
BTW: TARP was a giant rip off that protected the banksters and corrupt corporations.
3
Presidential elections are not decided by popular vote. We have something called the electoral college. Al Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 election (no need to write more on that fiasco). This 52-48 argument using a presidential election result as a model isn't relevant.
1
No one thought this through, and the nation and the world will now deal with the consequences.
This is like a really bad hangover.
This is like a really bad hangover.
4
I don’t see any principled reason why they can’t hold another referendum.
With no written constitution, there isn’t a clear rule against it.
The relevant EU agreement (Treaty of Lisbon, Art. 50) provides for up to two years of negotiations over the terms of departure, but that two years doesn’t start until the UK gives notice of intent to depart. PM Cameron says he will not give such notice before October, probably leaving it to his successor as PM.
And the 52-48 vote to leave seems a pretty soft and muddly mandate, where much of the impetus for departure was based on prevarication and fraud -- the vastly misstated figures for the payments to the EU, and the now-admittedly false claim that the supposed savings would fund the popular NHS, the crude manipulation of anti-immigrant sentiment -- and since many who voted for Brexit only now understand the consequences of that vote, as they did not earlier, when the opponents were weak and incompetent in their opposition.
There is little reason to hold the original, deeply flawed result sacrosanct. If there is a sufficient groundswell for a revote, they should have one.
With no written constitution, there isn’t a clear rule against it.
The relevant EU agreement (Treaty of Lisbon, Art. 50) provides for up to two years of negotiations over the terms of departure, but that two years doesn’t start until the UK gives notice of intent to depart. PM Cameron says he will not give such notice before October, probably leaving it to his successor as PM.
And the 52-48 vote to leave seems a pretty soft and muddly mandate, where much of the impetus for departure was based on prevarication and fraud -- the vastly misstated figures for the payments to the EU, and the now-admittedly false claim that the supposed savings would fund the popular NHS, the crude manipulation of anti-immigrant sentiment -- and since many who voted for Brexit only now understand the consequences of that vote, as they did not earlier, when the opponents were weak and incompetent in their opposition.
There is little reason to hold the original, deeply flawed result sacrosanct. If there is a sufficient groundswell for a revote, they should have one.
3
So they should redo and redo the vote....until it turns out the way you would prefer?
Obama won reelection with ... 52% of the vote.
Did you consider that a "pretty soft and muddly mandate"? and that Romney deserved a "do over" to see if he could improve his numbers?
Obama won reelection with ... 52% of the vote.
Did you consider that a "pretty soft and muddly mandate"? and that Romney deserved a "do over" to see if he could improve his numbers?
5
Most of the time, I write posts to express my convictions regarding an issue.
Now I am going to ask a question. (And I beseech people to reply to this post to try to answer this question) It seems as if most of Labor was in favor of remaining in the EU. Scotland voted to remain, and Scotland, before the advent of the Scottish independence party, was a labor stronghold. Also this article suggested in several spots that Labor wanted to remain in the EU.
Being in the EU forces British workers to compete with people who earn substantially less. Why would the Labor party, or any institution that purports to be on the Left, want to lower workers' wages.
Now I am going to ask a question. (And I beseech people to reply to this post to try to answer this question) It seems as if most of Labor was in favor of remaining in the EU. Scotland voted to remain, and Scotland, before the advent of the Scottish independence party, was a labor stronghold. Also this article suggested in several spots that Labor wanted to remain in the EU.
Being in the EU forces British workers to compete with people who earn substantially less. Why would the Labor party, or any institution that purports to be on the Left, want to lower workers' wages.
2
My good friend David, this is due to the underlying theory of quantity over quality when you can't have both. Would you want to help a few people a lot or a lot of people a little?
1
Perhaps it's as it is here in the US where the forces who benefit from this cheap labor exercise greater power and have been able to outmaneuver pro-labor forces.
Additionally when labor leaders become more interested in things like identity politics and/or foreign policy, their workers suffer.
Finally, bureaucrats worried about their own power and survival will not do a very good job for their constituents. It appears as though labor is suffering from what every other citizen is suffering from: An out of touch leadership.
Additionally when labor leaders become more interested in things like identity politics and/or foreign policy, their workers suffer.
Finally, bureaucrats worried about their own power and survival will not do a very good job for their constituents. It appears as though labor is suffering from what every other citizen is suffering from: An out of touch leadership.
Traditionally Labour were ambivalent or against the EU, but then New Labour under Blair came and made the Parliamentary Labour Party a centre party, little different from the two other main parties. There has been a disconnect between the Party elite and who they represent. Corbyn is arguably more in touch with the grass roots Labour supporters than the majority of his MPs who have been gunning for him since he was (much to their surprise) elected.
i love how this move toward freedom by Brits has thrown the entire upper west side of Manhattan into a sea of elitists crying into Kleenex and staying up at night.
Just imagine the reaction from our We-Know-Betters when Trump prevails twenty Tuesdays from now! ''Who told you that you could get by without our making all of your decisions?''
Just imagine the reaction from our We-Know-Betters when Trump prevails twenty Tuesdays from now! ''Who told you that you could get by without our making all of your decisions?''
8
L'Osservatore
You forget a couple of minor details.
1. In 20 weeks people will have a much better understanding of the consequences of this REFERENDUM. It seems that much of that will be negative.
2. The US Presidential Election involves collection at least 270 Electorla College votes in 50 state elections. If you look at the past 20 years, the Democrats have xonsisitently won approximately 240 of ten 270 EC votes neede in 19 states that vote BLUE. Trump will have a hard time flipping those.
If the Democrats carry just a few more states (Florida alone, three or four others together) it is over.
Don't count your chickens so fast.
Little Donnie has 20 more weeks of yapping to do. His biggest problem is his mouth.
You forget a couple of minor details.
1. In 20 weeks people will have a much better understanding of the consequences of this REFERENDUM. It seems that much of that will be negative.
2. The US Presidential Election involves collection at least 270 Electorla College votes in 50 state elections. If you look at the past 20 years, the Democrats have xonsisitently won approximately 240 of ten 270 EC votes neede in 19 states that vote BLUE. Trump will have a hard time flipping those.
If the Democrats carry just a few more states (Florida alone, three or four others together) it is over.
Don't count your chickens so fast.
Little Donnie has 20 more weeks of yapping to do. His biggest problem is his mouth.
15
Never thought that America would attack and criticize another country for wanting freedom.
104
American history is full of examples of just that. Our foreign policy is rife with cozying up to dictators or overthrowing democratic or socialist regimes because they happened to suit that moment's strategic/economic interests.
4
"Freedom" is a loaded word thrown around quite freely in some places. Tell me, Ludwig, are you "free?" Free from your boss, your job, your mortgage? Your family? We live in an intertwined society -- the UK received benefits from EU membership and accepted responsibilities. "Freedom" is a loaded distractor. There's no gaining it or losing it by leaving the EU. Only immense disruption and maybe cataclysmic consequences for a nation.
11
We had this thing called the "civil war" where states that voluntarily joined the union (like the UK joined the EU) were forced to remain in the Union.
But thanks for your "deep thoughts."
But thanks for your "deep thoughts."
2
I wonder if the Scottish First Minister Sturgeon is just blowing smoke about things that her Parliament may do in response to the 'Brexit' vote, especially another independence referendum. Ms. Sturgeon may just be smartly maneuvering to put Scotland in a more powerful position once the negotiating starts. Keep in mind that she currently leads a minority government, which makes another bid for independence no slam dunk, and with the weakness in the oil economy, Scotland probably needs the rest of the UK more than, in fact, they need Scotland. As for the EU, would they even want an independent Scotland under the current circumstances?
2
Just as only 3 or so million voted UKIP in the last election, but over 17 million voted Leave, it would be wrong to assume that every Remain vote in Scotland is a vote for Scottish Independence, or that they will all choose to turn their back on the UK just because they didn't get their own way. To think so is to insult Scottish belief in democracy. Wait and see, assume nothing.
The whole thought of putting this to another vote is asinine? Could you imagine if the STAY vote had won and the LEAVE vote had demanded another vote...it would be dismissed in a heartbeat. When the ELITE want to hold on to power..they'll do just about anything...exactly why 2A means so much.
9
When Trump is elected....they will do the same thing. Claim it is a mistake or miscount, or that the voting machines were hacked or something. Believe me, they will. Anything to avoid accepting the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.
4
Britain has always been a trading nation, and the first requirement of a trader is a market to sell into. Like it or not, Britain's most important export is financial services, so it's no surprise that London was strongly for Remain. The same can be said for many of the other outward-looking places, including Scotland and Northern Ireland, which has been developing as an outsource location for American (and other) companies.
In the end, the Britons that earn money for the country will make the decisions. Labour should have been part of this, since equitable treatment of the wealth creators (i.e. the workers) makes for more wealth overall. Corbyn is stuck in an outdated model of society and it's long past time for him to go.
Incidentally, there is no particular reason for Britain to invoke article 50 of the Lisbon treaty until they wish to do so, nor is there any reason to go by the two year time limit. The country is a major power with a G8 economy. The negotiations will take place amongst the British, the French and a small number of equally powerful countries, as they would have done before the EU began its ill-advised expansion. The minor powers will be informed of the new arrangements and life will move on.
In the end, the Britons that earn money for the country will make the decisions. Labour should have been part of this, since equitable treatment of the wealth creators (i.e. the workers) makes for more wealth overall. Corbyn is stuck in an outdated model of society and it's long past time for him to go.
Incidentally, there is no particular reason for Britain to invoke article 50 of the Lisbon treaty until they wish to do so, nor is there any reason to go by the two year time limit. The country is a major power with a G8 economy. The negotiations will take place amongst the British, the French and a small number of equally powerful countries, as they would have done before the EU began its ill-advised expansion. The minor powers will be informed of the new arrangements and life will move on.
2
A giant waste, won't change a thing for the average citizen except lower there standard of living. Can't blame others for anger and frustration the vote and the result are flat out stupid.
While globalization is moving too fast, nothing will stop it. Brexit is a bad joke just as Trump is in the US. Both are totally irrelevant.
Allowing a referendum to go through with a simple majority strikes me as ludicrous. A decision this big should require at least a two-thirds majority. Poor UK, they were swept up in a sea of nonsense.
While globalization is moving too fast, nothing will stop it. Brexit is a bad joke just as Trump is in the US. Both are totally irrelevant.
Allowing a referendum to go through with a simple majority strikes me as ludicrous. A decision this big should require at least a two-thirds majority. Poor UK, they were swept up in a sea of nonsense.
9
Not to change the topic, but to delve into it a little deeper -- the underlying discontent that provoked Brexit and the Sanders and Trump insurgency are the issue of inequality and slow economic growth spreading discontent over many years on both sides of the pond.
The cause is at heart the system of Neoliberalism that came into existence in the 1970’s and was turbo-charged in the US by the election of Bill Clinton as Reagonist concepts settled into the heart of the Democratic Party and in England spring from Thatcherism. The outcome: the Rich win big, others to accept what result as Reality.
That is in process now and it is not clear how the story will unfold but more-of-the-same is very unlikely.
The cause is at heart the system of Neoliberalism that came into existence in the 1970’s and was turbo-charged in the US by the election of Bill Clinton as Reagonist concepts settled into the heart of the Democratic Party and in England spring from Thatcherism. The outcome: the Rich win big, others to accept what result as Reality.
That is in process now and it is not clear how the story will unfold but more-of-the-same is very unlikely.
9
Really -- "whom they think would lead the party to electoral disaster"? Does the Times no longer proofread for grammar?
9
Reading the comments from abroad is instructive. Particularly those who say that the great "unwashed, uneducated" should never have been handed a referendum in the first place.
I wonder how the great unwashed feel reading such comments. If ever there were arrogance, that's it. But the sorry fact is, those managing the expectations of voters and selling the "leave" point of view, aren't saints themselves. It appears as if Boris Johnson, in stating that fees paid to the EU will come back for reinvestment into the health system, deliberately lied.
I can't imagine how the great unwashed feel about all this, having been so mislead. No sooner were the votes counted and reported then we started hearing about all those who, watching the sinking pound, were signing calls for a re-referendum. So much for conviction.
Today I read another story that fear will trump evidence every day. The British voters let fear (and anger, another side of fear) overrule any desire to research how this would all play out. Now, seeing the world react in hysteria, they are realizing they've been played.
If Johnson thinks he can just waltz into power after the lies he sold voters he might regret not playing it straight about the potential impact of leaving the EU.
I wonder how the great unwashed feel reading such comments. If ever there were arrogance, that's it. But the sorry fact is, those managing the expectations of voters and selling the "leave" point of view, aren't saints themselves. It appears as if Boris Johnson, in stating that fees paid to the EU will come back for reinvestment into the health system, deliberately lied.
I can't imagine how the great unwashed feel about all this, having been so mislead. No sooner were the votes counted and reported then we started hearing about all those who, watching the sinking pound, were signing calls for a re-referendum. So much for conviction.
Today I read another story that fear will trump evidence every day. The British voters let fear (and anger, another side of fear) overrule any desire to research how this would all play out. Now, seeing the world react in hysteria, they are realizing they've been played.
If Johnson thinks he can just waltz into power after the lies he sold voters he might regret not playing it straight about the potential impact of leaving the EU.
9
I got a helpful suggestion for the Brits at this difficult juncture. How about the US take over UK as the New World ex-Brits, or American Anglo Saxons, going back to help, more like rule, the Old World Brits, or English Anglo Saxons.
US can send its military, its business experts, its financial pundits and its smart Democrats and Republicans and say, "Hey, Sir Wuthering Heights don't worry, Bob & Bob are here to take over. Now tell us what exactly do you do around here? (taken from Office Space)....before we start firing, hiring, rehiring, retraining and restructuring. You guys sure messed up your house. You get can also tell your Sir and Lady Castle Austen in those funny hats to get some doughnuts. We Americans do not like this English scones or whatever yo call it".
Great time for America to expand its territories and take back the England that ruled over North American land for two centuries.
UK surrender.
US can send its military, its business experts, its financial pundits and its smart Democrats and Republicans and say, "Hey, Sir Wuthering Heights don't worry, Bob & Bob are here to take over. Now tell us what exactly do you do around here? (taken from Office Space)....before we start firing, hiring, rehiring, retraining and restructuring. You guys sure messed up your house. You get can also tell your Sir and Lady Castle Austen in those funny hats to get some doughnuts. We Americans do not like this English scones or whatever yo call it".
Great time for America to expand its territories and take back the England that ruled over North American land for two centuries.
UK surrender.
1
So apparently you think the 'unwashed and uneducated' should just suffer a system that has for decades not worked in their favour so as not to upset the markets? Are we all now ruled by the markets? It does appear so. So much for democracy - demos = people.
Many of the Leave voters are well educated reasonable types who had the courage of their convictions and voted against the rhetoric of fear. They also bathe occasionally.
Many of the Leave voters are well educated reasonable types who had the courage of their convictions and voted against the rhetoric of fear. They also bathe occasionally.
3
Jeremy Corbyn is completely untested in elections, and would probably be a catastrophe for Labour.
Meanwhile, over in the Tory camp, a large number of candidates are in the running, including one abrasive man with strange hair. Where have we seen this before.
To add insult to injury, hackers from 4chan have used Python scripts to add millions of phony signatures to the Brexit re-do petition.
Meanwhile, over in the Tory camp, a large number of candidates are in the running, including one abrasive man with strange hair. Where have we seen this before.
To add insult to injury, hackers from 4chan have used Python scripts to add millions of phony signatures to the Brexit re-do petition.
Abe Lincoln was similarly a man who'd never won any elections until he DID.
Go check out how many times Babe Ruth struck out. I suppose it is good that neither consulted our liberal know-it-alls.
Why bother going to these Leftist blogs when you know they always get it wrong?
Go check out how many times Babe Ruth struck out. I suppose it is good that neither consulted our liberal know-it-alls.
Why bother going to these Leftist blogs when you know they always get it wrong?
8
From what I am reading, it appears that nobody wrote down any plans for what should be done if the LEAVE vote prevailed. That includes both Cameron and the supporters of the Leave vote.
It is stunning how dumb these guys are after seeing how well W and DICK did after we defeated Saddam's army in Iraq and had no plans for what to do thereafter. We all know how well THAT fiasco worked out. (Read the book of that title by Thomas E. Ricks.)
Talk about learning NOTHING from history. Now these geniuses get to play it by ear. Heaven help us how this one sorts out. It will not be pretty. It may not even make sense.
It is stunning how dumb these guys are after seeing how well W and DICK did after we defeated Saddam's army in Iraq and had no plans for what to do thereafter. We all know how well THAT fiasco worked out. (Read the book of that title by Thomas E. Ricks.)
Talk about learning NOTHING from history. Now these geniuses get to play it by ear. Heaven help us how this one sorts out. It will not be pretty. It may not even make sense.
23
Fallout from such a momentous (and unexpected) victory is to be expected. Panic is not the proper response.
The British should allow the dust to settle, give shock and emotions time to subside and then begin to chart a path forward.
The losers will use the uncertainty in their counter-attack efforts. Mature minds will not be deceived.
The British should allow the dust to settle, give shock and emotions time to subside and then begin to chart a path forward.
The losers will use the uncertainty in their counter-attack efforts. Mature minds will not be deceived.
10
Dropping bombs on customers is bad for business.
So, an integrated global economy will most certainly help prevent that.
However, technology and globalization have taken a great toll on the standard of living of far too many people in developed countries.
Simply put, there is a global oversupply of labor and the private sector cannot solve that problem.
Technological advances can't be stopped.
If the power elite of the planet want the benefits of continued globalization, then they must become active in creating alternate public sector jobs: infrastructure projects, health care, education, recreation.
So, an integrated global economy will most certainly help prevent that.
However, technology and globalization have taken a great toll on the standard of living of far too many people in developed countries.
Simply put, there is a global oversupply of labor and the private sector cannot solve that problem.
Technological advances can't be stopped.
If the power elite of the planet want the benefits of continued globalization, then they must become active in creating alternate public sector jobs: infrastructure projects, health care, education, recreation.
22
not just that.. the critical point is controlling the population growth in the developing world, specially in the middle east. The global population is the largest it ever has been, just when the demand for labor is falling.
3
The country seems to be unraveling, doesn't it?
4
nothing is unraveling; the geo boundaries are staying, people still go to work, children to school, etc,
perhaps more people will do this at their original POB, which is not necessarily evil.
perhaps more people will do this at their original POB, which is not necessarily evil.
5
It's a sad world in which so many voters on both sides of the Atlantic would rather jump off a cliff into an unknown abyss than accept the status quo made intolerable by politicians, businesses, bureaucrats and bankers who have only their own greed and self-interest at heart. These voters would rather embrace new demagogues who pander to their fears than tolerate their current "leaders" who have abandoned them. The world is upside down and the controlling thought for so many now is, "Better the devil you DON'T know." This can't end well.
6
Agreed, but it does not have to end badly... There have been many more worse crises in the world than this.
2
We are looking at a desperate attempt by radical liberal socialists in Britain and the US to retain power. The tools they are using are misinformation and accusations.
The tactics include:
- Accusing opponents of racism.
- Predicting economic collapse and pending doom.
- Election Fraud
- Inciting Violence
- Accusing opponents of hating all Muslims.
The citizens of Britain have voted to remove these individuals from office and to take back their freedom and democracy. American voters are about to do the same in November.
The tactics include:
- Accusing opponents of racism.
- Predicting economic collapse and pending doom.
- Election Fraud
- Inciting Violence
- Accusing opponents of hating all Muslims.
The citizens of Britain have voted to remove these individuals from office and to take back their freedom and democracy. American voters are about to do the same in November.
14
How has Britain survived all those centuries without a government in Brussels?
27
Just got back from a 2 week tour of the UK. Everywhere we went the tour director pointed out all the destruction in Briton during WWII. Without our help the Nazi's would have taken Briton. So I guess they survived that with a government in the US.
Opium trade, slavery, and colonialism.
1
What are the E.U. leaders doing? This is impacting not only on Britain, but on a global financial basis, and if ever the world needs to unite, it is now. ISIL, for one, is the greatest Evil we are facing.
This American is hoping that the German Chancellor will encourage the European Union to request that the Parliament to have a second referendum in order that all Britain's voices can be heard.
Europe is more vulnerable than ever. America may be the Giant in Retreat. Joining the thousands of British in hoping to be given another vote of confidence. An 'Act of Good Faith' on the part of the European Union, with no show of either Pride or Pewter, but for the Common Good.
This American is hoping that the German Chancellor will encourage the European Union to request that the Parliament to have a second referendum in order that all Britain's voices can be heard.
Europe is more vulnerable than ever. America may be the Giant in Retreat. Joining the thousands of British in hoping to be given another vote of confidence. An 'Act of Good Faith' on the part of the European Union, with no show of either Pride or Pewter, but for the Common Good.
2
Miss Ley: this referendum was in the works for something like TWO YEARS. It was publicized enough that even us folks in the USA knew all about it.
What Britons do you think were blithely unaware of the referendum?
In fact, what you want is a "do over" because things didn't go your preferred way. That's called "being a bad sport".
Obama won in 2012 by 52% of the vote. Do I get a "do over" because I think he is a bad President who has led us into disaster after disaster?
If HIllary wins in November, by 4% of the vote -- will you call it a "resounding victory" or will you let the Trump people have a "do over"?
What Britons do you think were blithely unaware of the referendum?
In fact, what you want is a "do over" because things didn't go your preferred way. That's called "being a bad sport".
Obama won in 2012 by 52% of the vote. Do I get a "do over" because I think he is a bad President who has led us into disaster after disaster?
If HIllary wins in November, by 4% of the vote -- will you call it a "resounding victory" or will you let the Trump people have a "do over"?
3
Equally, what EU politicos were unaware of the very real possibility of the outcome being for Brexit (though in their arrogance they may have chosen to disbelieve it), yet despite the massive negative ramifications they claim for its reality, what did they do to reform? The people had no choice when opportunities were not taken by the Establishment elites.
3
Greetings Concerned Citizen: it was thoughtful of you to come in with your opinion. We are fast to place the blame on others when there is an upheaval in our midst. Perhaps it is time to understand that this is not cricket.
It is futile to mention the name of the President since we rarely listen to what he has to say. To my mind, this has been costly on many occasion. United We Stand, Divided We Fall, and believe me when I tell you that it was a Muslim friend who told me that 'Brexit' will pass in time and memory.
As for American presidential elections, chipper up because it will not come as a surprise if Trump wins because he makes it 'fun' to go to the voting polls in November.
It is futile to mention the name of the President since we rarely listen to what he has to say. To my mind, this has been costly on many occasion. United We Stand, Divided We Fall, and believe me when I tell you that it was a Muslim friend who told me that 'Brexit' will pass in time and memory.
As for American presidential elections, chipper up because it will not come as a surprise if Trump wins because he makes it 'fun' to go to the voting polls in November.
1
Is it just me, or does that photo of Jeremy Corbyn make him look like a criminal who has just been arrested for a horrible crime? He almost appears to have his hands cuffed behind his back and is giving the camera a squinty-eyed scowl as if he is about to begin his "perp walk." This is not an image of a future British prime minister.
8
I couldn't agree more. What a bizarre photo. Quite unfaltering.
3
Ha! I thought the very same thing.
2
That is funny, my wife said the same thing. He also needs to leave and give his seat to someone else. That guy is old Labor with unions as his only issue. His MPs who walked out are from Education, Health Care and the Environment. That tells you that he has not understood those issues well.
2
When Scotland and Northern Ireland vote to leave the UK and stay in the EU, the English and Welsh Leave voters might ask for a do-over. From this point forward, expect a very concerted, calculated, and choreographed effort by the Scottish, Irish, Stay English and EU powers to use succession leverage to undermine the referendum.
I have some sympathy with the Leave voters, those who have experienced economic hardship and the anti-globalizers, but the succession of Scotland, Northern Ireland, and leaving the EU will, together, prove to be too much to swallow for the English. In light of these ramifications, it would be easy to believe that 10-30% of the English will change their minds.
The question is: will a drastic change in English/Welsh polling result in a second referendum and will the EU give the Scottish and Irish enough time to bring this strategy about.
I have some sympathy with the Leave voters, those who have experienced economic hardship and the anti-globalizers, but the succession of Scotland, Northern Ireland, and leaving the EU will, together, prove to be too much to swallow for the English. In light of these ramifications, it would be easy to believe that 10-30% of the English will change their minds.
The question is: will a drastic change in English/Welsh polling result in a second referendum and will the EU give the Scottish and Irish enough time to bring this strategy about.
3
Ironic that nationalism in Scotland has increased over recent decades with fervent moves towards independence should be accompanied by their wish to forfeit that independence to stay in the EU.
2
You know, governments in both the U.K. and U.S. can function quite well without their gutless elitist leaders.
The leadership that has been provided has led these countries into unjust wars, financial turmoil, out of control immigration, dilution of national sovereignty, you name it, we would have been better off without these so called "leaders".
The cornucopia of pin head led global influencing NGO's such as the EU, The Federal Reserve, WTO, IMF, BIS, CAFTA, NAFTA, etc., etc. has failed miserably unless of course you are one of the pension these sucking elitists collecting frequent flier miles as they spread the disease of globalism, which means simply the rapacious consumption of cheap labor.
These folks who have pandered to the large multinational corporations have committed economic treason and should be treated as traitors.
The leadership that has been provided has led these countries into unjust wars, financial turmoil, out of control immigration, dilution of national sovereignty, you name it, we would have been better off without these so called "leaders".
The cornucopia of pin head led global influencing NGO's such as the EU, The Federal Reserve, WTO, IMF, BIS, CAFTA, NAFTA, etc., etc. has failed miserably unless of course you are one of the pension these sucking elitists collecting frequent flier miles as they spread the disease of globalism, which means simply the rapacious consumption of cheap labor.
These folks who have pandered to the large multinational corporations have committed economic treason and should be treated as traitors.
20
The Brits want to let go of Europe but they still hold on to the monarchy.
Go figure
Go figure
4
Fail to see how that is connected given that the monarchy is constitutional and holds no power in the political system.
3
More an observation than trying to make a logical argument. But if Boris is concerned about all the money that is being "wasted" by sending it to the EU, I can think of another cost cutting measure for a modern society...
Reality check make no mistakes everything is carefully allowed to happen now. Rich never been richer an they intend on getting richer .2008 melt down was allowed to happen so rich could profit by the loss in short time too . Most of problems in world is when good people stand idle an allows thing to happen
5
Calling this a CRISIS with a capital "C" is going way too far.
Britain will survive, other European nations will survive, NATO will survive, the pound and the euro will survive, the common market will survive.
All that has happened is that one member of the EU has finally said to the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels that they are fed up with petty rules and interference in their sovereignty. Countries need some control over who lives and has work rights in them. It is not racism but just common sense.
Luckily Britain was smart enough to stay out of the euro zone so their exit (if it really eventuates) will be easier than some other countries who are lining up to follow the example. Europe will be a better place with less power in Brussels and more power returned to it's various Capitals. The world will no collapse. Nobody will erect huge tariff barriers and kill commerce and trade.
So, doomsayers, have a nice cup of tea and relax and let things play out!
It is not a CRISIS!
Britain will survive, other European nations will survive, NATO will survive, the pound and the euro will survive, the common market will survive.
All that has happened is that one member of the EU has finally said to the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels that they are fed up with petty rules and interference in their sovereignty. Countries need some control over who lives and has work rights in them. It is not racism but just common sense.
Luckily Britain was smart enough to stay out of the euro zone so their exit (if it really eventuates) will be easier than some other countries who are lining up to follow the example. Europe will be a better place with less power in Brussels and more power returned to it's various Capitals. The world will no collapse. Nobody will erect huge tariff barriers and kill commerce and trade.
So, doomsayers, have a nice cup of tea and relax and let things play out!
It is not a CRISIS!
11
It was bizarre that the UK even let the EU do stuff, like tell them how many migrants they had to take in, or destroy their OWN UK fishing industry in favor of other nations -- or that a shepherd has to BURY each dead sheep, rather than cremate the remains.
That is an extraordinary level of meddling, and no wonder they got properly fed up and quit.
Americans wouldn't have stood it for a year, let alone 40 years.
That is an extraordinary level of meddling, and no wonder they got properly fed up and quit.
Americans wouldn't have stood it for a year, let alone 40 years.
4
Was this what Churchill was referring to when he called democracy the worst form of government, except for all the others?
6
This is beginning to look like a British comedy from the BBC. Episode 2 will be aired soon.
3
These island folk figured out how to dominate the world's oceans and trade for ten centuries without the benefit of Brussels's red tape. They held out against Hitler while America dozed,and ultimately prevailed after we awakened.
I for one am not ready to predict a gloomy future for an unshackled and sovereign United Kingdom.
I for one am not ready to predict a gloomy future for an unshackled and sovereign United Kingdom.
44
I so agree!! Have faith in your decision.
7
Old
You seem to ignore a few minor facts.
We pulled Britain's bacon out of the fire TWICE during the 20th Century. Without that alliance, they would have been burnt toast.
Their empire went the way of all flesh over the past century as well. They used to exploit sources of raw materials all over the world, and has some of the best manufacturing capacity. None of that will be true going forward. It will be more like poor Little England.
And they asked for it. Well, they have it now.
You seem to ignore a few minor facts.
We pulled Britain's bacon out of the fire TWICE during the 20th Century. Without that alliance, they would have been burnt toast.
Their empire went the way of all flesh over the past century as well. They used to exploit sources of raw materials all over the world, and has some of the best manufacturing capacity. None of that will be true going forward. It will be more like poor Little England.
And they asked for it. Well, they have it now.
4
@Joe From Boston -- WE DID. We Americans. But then we left. We didn't force Great Britain into an economic union with us, with them at the bottom of the totem pole and us doing all the dictating.
In case you have not noticed -- the USA is not in the European Union!!!
In case you have not noticed -- the USA is not in the European Union!!!
2
Labour was already split anyway, as some of its members, especially the former mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, made anti-Semitic tweets and weren't punished for it until there was a public outcry. Labour's hardline members wanted Jeremy Corbyn to take on David Cameron instead of looking weak like Ed Miliband, the former party leader, and take him on he did, all the while papering over the mess consuming his party from within. Brexit was merely the straw that broke Labour's back.
2
Shoot to kill now, ask questions later...
3
The best lessons from the Brexit vote may be brewing right here across the pond.
I say hooray to the Brits who want out from the Euro illusion.
https://livinginsonora.blogspot.com/2016/06/a-letter-to-aziz.html
I say hooray to the Brits who want out from the Euro illusion.
https://livinginsonora.blogspot.com/2016/06/a-letter-to-aziz.html
6
I realized today that it's quite amazing that the Brits would do something this drastic on a simple majority vote. We don't change our constitution on a majority vote and I doubt most other countries do either.
418
That's the difference between the US and Britain. If you don't want the majority to vote on something that affects them, how is it a democracy?????
3
Unfortunately the Prime Minister made that choice himself.
I for one would love to have a nationwide referendum here on abolishing the 2nd amendment.
I for one would love to have a nationwide referendum here on abolishing the 2nd amendment.
6
@HR: there is a very clear method of changing the Constitution, which is in the Constitution itself!
And it is not by popular referendum. It is by passing a new Amendment through both Houses of Congress, THEN each state votes on it INDIVIDUALLY -- so it requires approval from 38 of the 50 states.
You are absolutely within your rights as a US citizen to work towards this. Yet I have never seen anyone even TRY to do so.
And it is not by popular referendum. It is by passing a new Amendment through both Houses of Congress, THEN each state votes on it INDIVIDUALLY -- so it requires approval from 38 of the 50 states.
You are absolutely within your rights as a US citizen to work towards this. Yet I have never seen anyone even TRY to do so.
1
Suppose a second referendum is held and "Remain" wins. Would the "Leave" proponents have a right to demand a third referendum?
8
The same people who now claim a 52-48 result is "too close" would have been completely satisfied had it gone the other way by the same margin; such hypocrisy!
24
Quite a few people who are rethinking the referendum are people who voted for "leave" (I.e. won) especially once it was made clear that one of the major promises ($350 million per week going to NHS) turned out to be a blatant lie.
And Scotland voted to remain in the UK recently under the premise that the UK would remain in the EU.
This is what can happen when too many people vote simply as protest votes.
And Scotland voted to remain in the UK recently under the premise that the UK would remain in the EU.
This is what can happen when too many people vote simply as protest votes.
6
Absolutely... They sound like sore losers!
2
Some that voted Leave thought that it was a vote in protest only and that the Remains would prevail.
Imagine, as a Californian, that you voted for Jill Stein, knowing full well that Clinton would take the state. But, then wake up finding out enough protest voters gave the state to Trump?
So, I wonder how many Leave voters would flip to Remain, now that they know that their vote actually matters?
Imagine, as a Californian, that you voted for Jill Stein, knowing full well that Clinton would take the state. But, then wake up finding out enough protest voters gave the state to Trump?
So, I wonder how many Leave voters would flip to Remain, now that they know that their vote actually matters?
9
It makes no difference. In your example, Donald Trump would be the next president, just like the UK is leaving the EU.
And unlike Stein, who will not come close to getting double digits, even in California, the polling on Brexit was conflicting and close regarding the outcome. So there was no excuse to vote Yes, when your true feeling was to vote No.
And unlike Stein, who will not come close to getting double digits, even in California, the polling on Brexit was conflicting and close regarding the outcome. So there was no excuse to vote Yes, when your true feeling was to vote No.
3
Evidence that "bregret" is real: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave...
3
@JWS: I regret voting for Barack Obama.
Does this mean I get a "do over" too???
Does this mean I get a "do over" too???
6
Surely, even most people know that when you create uncertainty, you cannot, by definition predict the ramifications of that uncertainty. Combine that fact with the Brexit proponents' arguing sugar-coated consequences of the UK leaving the EU and you have a growing number of "What have we done?" voters with buyer's remorse. The carnage may be severe. Only time will tell as the world charts new and perilous territory.
4
What it all comes down is this:
Despite the UK's strict gun laws, 17.4 million Brits succeeded in simultaneously shooting themselves in the foot.
Despite the UK's strict gun laws, 17.4 million Brits succeeded in simultaneously shooting themselves in the foot.
12
by getting rid of the freeloaders from other places?
7
The Times seems to still be arguing for the remain camp in article after article, not only that but why do the comment sections seem to no longer be available when the comments don't favor The Times point of view? Amazing, what an extent the media goes to today to control the narrative and spin it in the direction their masters want.
10
Actually, the NYT doesn't care that much what goes in Great Britain.
They are terrified that Trump might win. He is gaining rapidly on their Princess HIllary.
So everything must be spun as if it was directly related to the US Presidential elections, and to influence US voters to vote only for Hillary and not consider an alternative to "same old, same old".
They are terrified that Trump might win. He is gaining rapidly on their Princess HIllary.
So everything must be spun as if it was directly related to the US Presidential elections, and to influence US voters to vote only for Hillary and not consider an alternative to "same old, same old".
6
So, this is what happens when the terrier catches the Mini Cooper. Quite an achievement. A big dubious achievement.
3
Britain had been a sometimes reluctant EU member in the past, and now the people who voted Leave should do so. Scotland and Northern Ireland who overwhelmingly voted Remain should get their wish too.
2
Jeremy Corbyn is the English equivalent of France's François Hollande - both Socialists are unable to deal with labour.
3
Andrew Moravcsik, a professor of politics at Princeton University, wrote in April that Brexit was “Kabuki” theater, arguing that “under no circumstances will Britain leave Europe, regardless of the result of the referendum.”
===================
That kind of thinking won't buy you a cup of Joe in E Pluribus Unum. We like the fact that Brits decided to exit the EU.
The voting majority of the UK, albeit small, has forced not only itself but the United States to begin to take a full measure of its own unique identity, like the melting pot now hermetically sealed by politically correct behavior masquerading in violent militaristic behavior in foreign lands. The opaque way we fight wars now is fully synchronized with Britain, as if we alone had the Stamp of the Almighty on our Writs. Both Brits and Americans conduct select sorties, covert mission-by-mission strikes against terrorism in the name of "democracy". In the process we kill many innocent people who just want us off their lands.
Elites from the US/UK reaped obscene profits from Mideast and African devastation ever since the Blair-Clinton years, while the European Union struggled for some sort of new peaceful life. Incongruous.
It is ironic but so welcome that millions of old peace-loving UK warriors and EU refusniks, together with a few estranged politicians, commanded Britain to do the only thing the world really needs: rediscover our ancestors' identities and get on with life without corporate illusions.
===================
That kind of thinking won't buy you a cup of Joe in E Pluribus Unum. We like the fact that Brits decided to exit the EU.
The voting majority of the UK, albeit small, has forced not only itself but the United States to begin to take a full measure of its own unique identity, like the melting pot now hermetically sealed by politically correct behavior masquerading in violent militaristic behavior in foreign lands. The opaque way we fight wars now is fully synchronized with Britain, as if we alone had the Stamp of the Almighty on our Writs. Both Brits and Americans conduct select sorties, covert mission-by-mission strikes against terrorism in the name of "democracy". In the process we kill many innocent people who just want us off their lands.
Elites from the US/UK reaped obscene profits from Mideast and African devastation ever since the Blair-Clinton years, while the European Union struggled for some sort of new peaceful life. Incongruous.
It is ironic but so welcome that millions of old peace-loving UK warriors and EU refusniks, together with a few estranged politicians, commanded Britain to do the only thing the world really needs: rediscover our ancestors' identities and get on with life without corporate illusions.
2
Having spent many summers in the UK beginning in childhood and continuing until today, I watched this election with curiosity. The UK has changed a lot since the 1960s. Far fewer kindly old ladies wearing "twin-sets" at high tea and far more corporate types elbowing their way through the City. Presumably this election will bring back the elderly ladies in sweaters serving clotted cream at tea, although I am unclear exactly how that will happen.
5
It won't do that, but it might take the swagger out of the city boys for a bit.
2
It might be time to dump the euro currency and re-negotiate an entire new "union" and call it a European Federation—one that allows greater autonomy for all members, including sovereign control of their currency. That's basic economics, as illustrated by the debacle in Greece.
And also control of their own sovereign borders. I don't mind these sovereign borders when traveling in Europe. In fact it seems more safe and personal and cultural. And in this particular day and age a feeling of loss of control of their own countries and borders is causing a great malaise and unease in these citizens.
And also control of their own sovereign borders. I don't mind these sovereign borders when traveling in Europe. In fact it seems more safe and personal and cultural. And in this particular day and age a feeling of loss of control of their own countries and borders is causing a great malaise and unease in these citizens.
8
How much of the stay vote in wealth precincts of London had to do with the self-interest of the voters, who were more concerned about their property values than anything else?
9
I'm surprised at the Brits behaving erraticsly like chicken without heads
3
There's no crisis. The people have spoken. The sore losers... Including apparently this publication, aren't accepting the will of the people.
29
"There's no crisis. The people have spoken."
And what exactly have the people said about what happens next?
Or did you think everything was done once the vote was taken?
And what exactly have the people said about what happens next?
Or did you think everything was done once the vote was taken?
2
The pound has tanked, businesses are in crisis, and the government is AWOL. What could go wrong? Maybe Putin will parachute in to help out.
4
If GDP alone was the measure of happiness, then why does this paper talk about Bhutan's index of happiness? Sounds to me like the Brits have prioritized their identity as a people above GDP growth, which accrues to the top 1% in London, anyways..
3
No one said change is easy. What bothers me is how the media is spinning this to the point where it's literally impossible to find out the real truth. The Democrats are screaming that the sky is falling and the Republicans are cheering it on as the best thing ever. Regardless, the majority voted to leave and the world needs to respect their choice and figure out how to move forward.
18
"it's literally impossible to find out the real truth"
That's because there is no "real" truth to be found out. How could there be when no one knows what's actually going happen? I mean what is the "real truth" about what your life will look like two years from now? How do we find that out?
If you can't answer that then it should it come as no surprise that no one can tell what life will be like in the 27 countries of the EU and in Britain two or more years from now.
That's because there is no "real" truth to be found out. How could there be when no one knows what's actually going happen? I mean what is the "real truth" about what your life will look like two years from now? How do we find that out?
If you can't answer that then it should it come as no surprise that no one can tell what life will be like in the 27 countries of the EU and in Britain two or more years from now.
7
Who says the world is not respecting the choice? The world doesn't like it, but that's different. And for a newspaper to point out the resulting difficulty is called reporting.
And I would add that many "winners" of this vote are rethinking this already.
And I would add that many "winners" of this vote are rethinking this already.
5
I agree... Get over it and accept your decision... You might be pleasantly surprised!
Dear Nigel and Boris. You break it, you own it.
7
Yes... And Mr. Cameron cleverly and elegently is leaving to those opposed who will hopefully come to see remain as the kindest kingdom, with more kindness as a result of learning control without knowledge is not always in the interest of its people, even to those who think they need it, they had it all, it's like those pictures of family disappearing one by one in back to the future, let us hope this week of what could be, will lead Britain back to its future remaining. idealistic I am
During the Watergate scandal, one of the culprits told another that "you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube."
That is the situation now. It seems clear that David Cameron will not invoke article 50, leaving that delectable decision to Boris Johnson or Michael Gove That, of course, will trigger the devolution of Scotland and perhaps Northern Ireland.
The fiasco was triggered solely by a Conservative intra-party fight. It had nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn, but his opponents among the Labor grandees see it as an opportunity to oust him. They will fail.
That is the situation now. It seems clear that David Cameron will not invoke article 50, leaving that delectable decision to Boris Johnson or Michael Gove That, of course, will trigger the devolution of Scotland and perhaps Northern Ireland.
The fiasco was triggered solely by a Conservative intra-party fight. It had nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn, but his opponents among the Labor grandees see it as an opportunity to oust him. They will fail.
4
Corbyn was probably the most honest of all the politicians in this spectacle. He admitted concerns over the EU, believing it needs considerable reform, and by not participating in the fear rhetoric espoused by his parliamentary colleagues, he allowed people to make up their own minds. The haste of his colleagues to try to remove him, despite his popularity with many of the rank and file is a testament to how far removed the Westminster politicos have become from the people they represent.
3
Time to buy real estate in London.
4
Even with the exchange rate advantage, you will not find it so cheap! Just one part of the problem for those who voted Leave.
3
The voters really didn't want to leave, they just wanted the big shots to know how angry they were about the way things are going. When they voted to leave they were saying that this was a good, but harmless way to stick it in the eye of those twits at 10 Downing St. Certainly a lot of people, had they known the measure might win, would have voted to stay.
8
Many who voted IN in fact want to leave but have been scared off by the fear campaign by Remain... A campaign rhetoric which in itself has contributed to much of the market uncertainty!
2
If there is another referendum in England maybe the benighted voters there will Google "What is the EU" and "What is effect of leaving EU" BEFORE they vote.
Folks in Scotland and Northern Island somehow figured out the answers to those questions prior to last Thursday.
If things don't return to rationality, Scotland and N. Ireland should finally rid themselves of their English masters.
WGG
Clan MacLeod
Folks in Scotland and Northern Island somehow figured out the answers to those questions prior to last Thursday.
If things don't return to rationality, Scotland and N. Ireland should finally rid themselves of their English masters.
WGG
Clan MacLeod
6
Tony Benn must be spinning in his grave. I suppose it's a blessing that the great man never lived to see his son became such a craven capitalist stooge..
5
How many are old enough to remember "Well , here's another fine mess you've gotten us into?"
All those angry Britons cast a protest vote, and the next morning a lot of them realize that trouble is cheap but the refund is often beyond affording.
Already we see the squirming by the people who led this, admitting that most of what they promised would be the benefits ... are already acknowledged as not-going-to-happen.
This will dissolve the United Kingdom -- Scotland will now "Sexit" for sure.
A much poorer and reduced England can contemplate the consequences of moves so rash one thinks they were the work of drunken frat boys, who then wake up in the crapulous dawn to find out they've been expelled.
How much dumber to expel one's self in a fit of stupidity.
All those angry Britons cast a protest vote, and the next morning a lot of them realize that trouble is cheap but the refund is often beyond affording.
Already we see the squirming by the people who led this, admitting that most of what they promised would be the benefits ... are already acknowledged as not-going-to-happen.
This will dissolve the United Kingdom -- Scotland will now "Sexit" for sure.
A much poorer and reduced England can contemplate the consequences of moves so rash one thinks they were the work of drunken frat boys, who then wake up in the crapulous dawn to find out they've been expelled.
How much dumber to expel one's self in a fit of stupidity.
8
A much poorer and reduced England can contemplate the consequences...
Unless you are in the tourist business. This was the best day of your life.
Unless you are in the tourist business. This was the best day of your life.
1
They shot themselves in the foot . They deserve it. The old trumped the young, but the young have to live it (aks Sanders and Clinton)
Alas Paris is ecstatic
"Valérie Pécresse dit « Welcome to Paris-Région » aux déçus de la City"
http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2016/06/25/valerie-pecresse-dit-...
Britain's loss shall be France's gain.
Alas Paris is ecstatic
"Valérie Pécresse dit « Welcome to Paris-Région » aux déçus de la City"
http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2016/06/25/valerie-pecresse-dit-...
Britain's loss shall be France's gain.
5
Maybe a gain to some, but when the price of property in Paris goes through the roof from an influx of city folk, you may think differently.
1
This crisis has revealed the utter bankruptcy of the British political system. The ruling party and the main opposition party are stuffed with jokers, dilettantes and fools who think they can rely on the old English trick of somehow muddling through even the worst of crises. Above all, now, the country needs a competent group of ministers and yet there is literally no one home when the European Union comes knocking to settle the divorce pact. Shame on the frauds and charlatans who allowed the country to drift into such an appalling state. They need to be fired, every single one of them.
11
To the Conservatives on both sides of the Atlantic, be careful of what you wish for, you might just get it.
20
Remorse--political remorse has cast a black cloud over Britain. After they got drunk with false promises thrown at them by selfish, arrogant and opportunistic politicians, like Boris and others, now the country finds itself groping along, not knowing exactly what to do and not realizing the disastrous blow they have inflicted against themselves and the block of nations that has stood together for decades.
Jeremy Corbyn, it has been reported time and time again, did very little to alert the Brits what this vote really meant. He has been accused of procrastinating until the very last minute to seriously mount a campaign to warn the British people of what the real political and economic consequences of what a Brexit vote would bring about. He's now paying the price with resignations from his own party.
May we learn from their grievous error, as we are not immune from this nationalistic, isolationist, nativist view, for in today's world, "no man is an island." May the Brits find a workable way out and reintegrate their country back into the EU.
Jeremy Corbyn, it has been reported time and time again, did very little to alert the Brits what this vote really meant. He has been accused of procrastinating until the very last minute to seriously mount a campaign to warn the British people of what the real political and economic consequences of what a Brexit vote would bring about. He's now paying the price with resignations from his own party.
May we learn from their grievous error, as we are not immune from this nationalistic, isolationist, nativist view, for in today's world, "no man is an island." May the Brits find a workable way out and reintegrate their country back into the EU.
237
Asserting national sovereignty does not imply poor relations with one's neighbors.
Why should it be difficult for a nation to manage its own affairs while respecting the borders and sovereignty of its trading partners?
Why should it be difficult for a nation to manage its own affairs while respecting the borders and sovereignty of its trading partners?
7
"...selfish, arrogant and opportunistic politicians..."
Those were your words to describe the Leave campaigners, but we can say just the same, if not more so, of the Remain campaigners (and EU bureaucrats) to refuse to address voters angst and frustration. They consider themselves high and mighty, knowing better than the unwashed, unintelligent, uneducated mass while they pat each other's shoulders to continue making big bucks, moving money and jobs around as they see fit. But when they need bailouts, who shoulder the burden? The very same unwashed, unintelligent, uneducated voters.
Those were your words to describe the Leave campaigners, but we can say just the same, if not more so, of the Remain campaigners (and EU bureaucrats) to refuse to address voters angst and frustration. They consider themselves high and mighty, knowing better than the unwashed, unintelligent, uneducated mass while they pat each other's shoulders to continue making big bucks, moving money and jobs around as they see fit. But when they need bailouts, who shoulder the burden? The very same unwashed, unintelligent, uneducated voters.
2
Britain's case against the EU is no different than America's case against Britain 240 years ago - unfair taxation and self determination.
#whatgoesaroundcomesaround
#thegoldenrule
Happy 4th of July!
#whatgoesaroundcomesaround
#thegoldenrule
Happy 4th of July!
10
The British were overdue for a correction. The chaos emanating from the Brexit referendum is a result of their delusions of grandeur. The hey days of the British empire are long gone, but many Britons have not acquiesced to that fact.
The British have an overinflated sense of importance and their place in the world. They see themselves as too special to be counted among the community of nations in the European Union. They think they deserve their own seat at the table among the great powers of today. In many ways they were spurred on by America and our talks of their "special relationship" with us. It got to their heads.
Now they are starting to see the folly of their ways as they realize just how much they need Europe for their own success and survival. The Brexit referendum was a demonstration of the British ego. If anything the Brexit chaos needed to happen because the British ego needed to be checked.
The British have an overinflated sense of importance and their place in the world. They see themselves as too special to be counted among the community of nations in the European Union. They think they deserve their own seat at the table among the great powers of today. In many ways they were spurred on by America and our talks of their "special relationship" with us. It got to their heads.
Now they are starting to see the folly of their ways as they realize just how much they need Europe for their own success and survival. The Brexit referendum was a demonstration of the British ego. If anything the Brexit chaos needed to happen because the British ego needed to be checked.
7
@ Andrew This seems to be based on a view of Britain gleaned from Terry-Thomas movies, or perhaps Downton Abbey. The areas that voted for Brexit were primarily the most economically depressed and the voters were overwhelmingly lower-income CDE voters. They have no delusions of grandeur but on the contrary feel like they are getting the crumbs from the table of their own elite in Westminster and the global elite as represented by the EU (I'm not saying I agree with this analysis, just reporting).
UKIP cynically suggested that the Leave vote would return Britain to the days of yore when it had unified (because homogeneous and static) communities, a clear sense of its national identity, and, yes, more international clout, and they fell for it.
The delusions of grandeur and over-inflated sense of their own importance on the world stage of which you speak certainly exists among Britain's political class, especially the Conservatives, but they were overwhelmingly Remain supporters.
UKIP cynically suggested that the Leave vote would return Britain to the days of yore when it had unified (because homogeneous and static) communities, a clear sense of its national identity, and, yes, more international clout, and they fell for it.
The delusions of grandeur and over-inflated sense of their own importance on the world stage of which you speak certainly exists among Britain's political class, especially the Conservatives, but they were overwhelmingly Remain supporters.
5
...and after their financial and real estate collapse you will see thousands of British refugee trying get asylum in Europe.
2
As an island nation there is obviously a degree of difference between Britain and the countries of continental Europe, you assume it is based on a sense of superiority; as with any nation there are right winger who preach such rubbish, but they do not represent the majority. You may argue as many are the vote to leave was racist, but there are many other issues of dissatisfaction with the EU. Britain, united over centuries has had time to develop a sense & acceptance of who they are (including our differences as nations within the UK) and with migration from the Commonwealth and elsewhere over long periods, that is a genuinely multicultural society. The fact that times of difficulty for working families presents an opportunity for the right wing politicians and gutter press is no surprise; this can and does happen anywhere. Hence the responsibility for governments to ensure ALL of their citizens have a positive place in society. Some European countries are still (like the US) younger; Germany & Italy were a collection of separate states until the 1870s. Political unification in Europe appears to be something continental elites are more happy to pursue than Britain. Whether their people feel the same way is another thing.
There should not be another referendum. Those who suggest there should are violating a basic principle of a democratic government. The people have spoken. Period. You can't repeat elections until you get the result you want. Shame on all those who are putting down the British voters by calling them uneducated and unintelligent. It is their government, not the other way around. The snobbish elites will never listen to the common citizen as they protect their own selfish interests. Good for you Brits!!
160
Some suggest that the English are having second thoughts, and their post-vote google search, "What is the E.U.?," suggests they didn't know what they were voting to leave. The UK has no constitution, so it dubious to claim that a re-vote is a violation of democratic principles. After driving off the cliff, if the people have now changed their minds and wish to vote a second time (perhaps in the guise of a new parliamentary election), it is hardly a violation of democratic principles.
208
the people can speak again.
9
Well how long would they have to wait to have another referendum? A Year? 5 Years? Forever? In 1919, we had a referendum in NJ on whether women should vote. The "No" vote carried every county except one which it lost by only 800 votes. How long should we have waited to give women the vote?
9
A few years ago, David Cameron announced the Referendum (actually, a political scheme). Cameron got caught in his own ambush. Cameron and the Tories cozied up to Rupert Murdoch for years to get his newspaper's support. Murdoch's papers endorsed the Tories in the 2015 General Election. Cameron thought he had a lifelong friend with Murdoch. Rupert's papers pushed for the UK to exit the EU. Cameron was shocked- he had no idea that Murdoch just saw Cameron as a one night stand.
5
So long as the Socialists get booted out of office, all is good.
5
NYT, you got it wrong: "the clear will of British voters" was not for Brexit. Perhaps the clear will of English and Welsh voters -- but the clear will of voters in Scotland and Northern Ireland was quite the opposite.
The phrase not only shows ignorance about the political problem threatening the continued existence of the UK, but ignores American values. Once we start saying that a majority vote expresses the "clear will" of the entirety, we head into treacherous waters. Such as that we ought to respect the "clear will" of the citizens of a country to discriminate against a religious, ethnic, sexual, etc. minority, simply because a majority happen to think it's OK. That's democracy as mob rule.
Seems like even the Times has come down with a case of the Trumps.
The phrase not only shows ignorance about the political problem threatening the continued existence of the UK, but ignores American values. Once we start saying that a majority vote expresses the "clear will" of the entirety, we head into treacherous waters. Such as that we ought to respect the "clear will" of the citizens of a country to discriminate against a religious, ethnic, sexual, etc. minority, simply because a majority happen to think it's OK. That's democracy as mob rule.
Seems like even the Times has come down with a case of the Trumps.
18
The vote was a UK wide vote & the majority voted to Leave. Subdivisions within the UK are irrelevant in this instance.
2
You'll have to be persuading the "subdivisions" of that, Rachel.
About the only clear thing in this mess is that Cameron will no longer lead the Conservative Party. Corbyn appears to be a leader with a divided party. The Queen may no longer head a United Kingdom. All because a majority of the English population (outside London) wanted to believe a pack of lies.
472
The GOP in the US has been floating a pack of lies since the first election of President Obama. The result is their voters game them Trump. God help us the American people do not fall for that too.
1
Corbyn is a Marxist fool, the UK equivalent of Bernie Sanders.
1
You are correct regarding Corbyn and Cameron. The Queen is still head of state.
As for the lies. Personally seeing the Eastern Europeans invading the UK. It is not lies. They have taken jobs in every aspect of employment. College/University lectures. Local Government Jobs. Opticians in the high street. Bristol Maid a company close to I live employes 50% Eastern European workers. Supermarket Assistant. My GP surgery employes them.
I can not walk around my local supermarket without hearing them talking together.
That's why middle England voted the way we did
As for the lies. Personally seeing the Eastern Europeans invading the UK. It is not lies. They have taken jobs in every aspect of employment. College/University lectures. Local Government Jobs. Opticians in the high street. Bristol Maid a company close to I live employes 50% Eastern European workers. Supermarket Assistant. My GP surgery employes them.
I can not walk around my local supermarket without hearing them talking together.
That's why middle England voted the way we did
1
Do not let the media frenzy cause you to doubt yourself or panic. I guarantee the Big Players are shorting the markets as we speak and popping the champagne.
Everyone that panics and sells their holdings will drive the prices down which is exactly what the short-sellers are counting on ... fire sale prices.
Everyone that panics and sells their holdings will drive the prices down which is exactly what the short-sellers are counting on ... fire sale prices.
22
Given the inflammatory gloom and doom thrown out there by the PM & Chancellor, you wonder if they & their buddies have joined them. Given the market volatility, you would think they might (knowing that) have played down those comments in the interests of their nation. Perhaps they wanted the current crisis to be able to say 'I told you so'. The Chancellor is singing from a very different song sheet this morning, but damage has already been done.
Corbin is a useless moron. The sooner Labour is done with him the better!
6
A hyena snipping at the heels of a lion
Let's hope that Corbyn is dethroned as head of Labour. Although I have in the past supported Labour, someone like him, who is buddy-buddy with Hamas and Hezbollah, makes me ill.
8
Just as Mr. Corbyn should now enable a no-confidence party vote on his leadership, so should a parliamentary no-confidence vote be held on the Conservative government of Mr. Cameron. If the government should fall, a national general election should be held at the soonest possible date.
Already before the post-Brexit weekend has expired, Brexit campaigners are all but admitting that many of their independence benefit claims were fantasy. They are already backing away from their promises.
A new government, with a fresh mandate, should then conduct another referendum to supplant the discredited exercise orchestrated by tired politicians who had lost the confidence of the people. Article 50 has not yet been invoked. Britain remains in the EU until it is.
England and Wales will become a very small, marginalized country surrounded by, in their own right, Scotland, the Republic of Ireland and the Six Counties, all of them EU members. Does this tiny rump of a vestige truly believe that it will be stronger for this?
There'll always be an England, but will anybody pay attention to it?
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Already before the post-Brexit weekend has expired, Brexit campaigners are all but admitting that many of their independence benefit claims were fantasy. They are already backing away from their promises.
A new government, with a fresh mandate, should then conduct another referendum to supplant the discredited exercise orchestrated by tired politicians who had lost the confidence of the people. Article 50 has not yet been invoked. Britain remains in the EU until it is.
England and Wales will become a very small, marginalized country surrounded by, in their own right, Scotland, the Republic of Ireland and the Six Counties, all of them EU members. Does this tiny rump of a vestige truly believe that it will be stronger for this?
There'll always be an England, but will anybody pay attention to it?
www.endthemadnessnow.org
7
The attitude that England/Britain will lose global significance sums up the priorities of modern elites. It seems to be more important that Britain has global significance than that it is a fair and just nation for all its citizens.
Also, leaving the EU is not a choice for isolation at all, Britain will always look beyond its shores for cooperation (indeed it has a friendly and cooperative relationship with the Commonwealth), and will work hard to support other nations under threat (they did that in 2 world wars way before the EU, & continue to do so through one of the most generous overseas aid budgets of any nation), Britain simply wants to change the type of relationship it has with Europe which has a completely different agenda of full political & economic union that the people of Britain did not sign up for. If, in a fit of peak, EU politicos choose to obstruct establishing a positive relationship with such a close neighbour, that says a lot about them & why Britain may have chosen to leave.
Also, leaving the EU is not a choice for isolation at all, Britain will always look beyond its shores for cooperation (indeed it has a friendly and cooperative relationship with the Commonwealth), and will work hard to support other nations under threat (they did that in 2 world wars way before the EU, & continue to do so through one of the most generous overseas aid budgets of any nation), Britain simply wants to change the type of relationship it has with Europe which has a completely different agenda of full political & economic union that the people of Britain did not sign up for. If, in a fit of peak, EU politicos choose to obstruct establishing a positive relationship with such a close neighbour, that says a lot about them & why Britain may have chosen to leave.
It seems like Corbyn has found something he's even less effective at than fighting anti-Semitism in his party.
5
I can't help but wonder why on Earth the EU doesn't have some sort of control over the nature of decisions on the part of its member states to leave -- can a head of government just decide on the basis of a coin flip in the future? And how on Earth does the British system work when massive, earth-shaking foreign policy decisions can just be thrown out to a popular vote with a simple majority on the whim of a single politician who's getting his arm twisted?
The world laughs at Americans who sweat and strain at every word and piece of punctuation in our Constitution, but it's only because this kind of unholy mess is what results when you don't. I'm endlessly glad that I live in a country where nitpicking over your governmental process documents is what people do for fun. It requires us to perform basic gut checks on almost everything we decide to do, and it puts limits on who gets to decide what, and I'm grateful for it.
The world laughs at Americans who sweat and strain at every word and piece of punctuation in our Constitution, but it's only because this kind of unholy mess is what results when you don't. I'm endlessly glad that I live in a country where nitpicking over your governmental process documents is what people do for fun. It requires us to perform basic gut checks on almost everything we decide to do, and it puts limits on who gets to decide what, and I'm grateful for it.
25
I pity Mr.Cameron. He did his best to impress upon the general public that remaining with E.U. alone would serve the best interests of Britain. Now his decision to quit the office will only add more confusion. I believe Mr.Jeremy is right in saying that there is no need for resignation. Mr.Cameron should not resign and rather try for a via media. Likewise, Scotland's desire should also be given respect and it cannot be brushed aside easily. I think the best solution is to go for another referendum.
5
Sorry, but Cameron had no need to call a referendum in the first place. He did so to squelch, momentarily, as it turns out, a row in his own party (which he was unable to control) - amongst that minority of Conservative MPs who like to think the Empire still exists and who are anti-everything except the Queen and the flag.
If he'd shown a little backbone at the time, rather than caving in to them, he and the country he purported to lead wouldn't be in this mess now.
Leaders lead. He failed.
p.
If he'd shown a little backbone at the time, rather than caving in to them, he and the country he purported to lead wouldn't be in this mess now.
Leaders lead. He failed.
p.
1
They will walk it back. That is a certainty. But for the foreseeable future we will be watching a Kabuchi dance. You can bet on it.
5
Unlikely. If they do, the 52% who voted to leave will feel utterly betrayed and British democratic process will be exposed as a sham. There will be no easy way back from this and the majority has clearly stated it does not even want a way back. If one is imposed against the clearly declared democratic will of the British people, there will be more instability, not less. To overturn a referendum would be an invitation to chaos, even violent upheaval. That said, there is a real chance that Scotland will secede from the UK, but even then they would have to petition to join the EU (a petition Europe would likely welcome, both for its own sake and to humiliate England).
5
@john . Many of the 52% will feel they were lied to, that they were flim flammed. They will be relieved that they can reconsider.
7
The campaign of fear peddled by Remain also scared a lot of people into voting IN. There is a lot more discontent with the EU in the UK than the 52% who voted Leave. This has been brewing for many years yet Brussells has (as it always does) ignored concerns and carried on regardless. The EU is in desperate need of reform, maybe now they will actually stop to consider.
Even in an article that is completed unrelated to "He who must not be named". "He who must not be named" is mentioned in almost every other post. Stop talking about the schmuck! Seriously it just gives these people free press.
8
I am deeply disappointed by the utter vacuity of the NYT coverage of Brexit. This article is a classic example of cut and paste in the absence of any controlling intellect. Really the NYT is going to report that some professor from Princeton thinks that the vote of 17 million will be set aside as a serious comment worthy of my subscription and time? Above all it shows me that the ignorance of economics by mainstream journalists renders their analysis of events like Brexit entirely moot. This is not a game, an horse race, a form of theater...it is a political event that is going to be driven by underlying economic factors. N. ireland cannot leave the UK as 70% of its economy is subsidy from the English taxpayer. Do you really think the south of Ireland want to take such a basket case on? Scotland is not economically independent either. Simply because a politician says X does not mean we need to believe it. I had thought I paid for the NYT for precisely such a gimlet regard for the facts. Clearly not. I am getting gossip, and gossip considerably less amusing than what the Enquirer purveys.
I can read such an article on any start up news site. For free. This is the future of the NYT?
I can read such an article on any start up news site. For free. This is the future of the NYT?
126
This same thing happened to Greece, they vote out but somehow they managed to stay in.
I agree that wouldn't be democrat to run over the choice of the majority but that is what politics do, they will find away to approve laws that will leave things just the way it is in UK. Maybe UK won't be EU a anymore, but it doesn't mean they will not come with a structure to maintain things just the way it is.
I feel UK out of EU will be just a cover, at the end, all will remain the same.
I agree that wouldn't be democrat to run over the choice of the majority but that is what politics do, they will find away to approve laws that will leave things just the way it is in UK. Maybe UK won't be EU a anymore, but it doesn't mean they will not come with a structure to maintain things just the way it is.
I feel UK out of EU will be just a cover, at the end, all will remain the same.
2
Pretty sure Ireland would take Northern Ireland back.
And the debates about Scotland leaving the UK are happening, so why should they not be reported on. No one is saying it will happen, but it sure could.
And the debates about Scotland leaving the UK are happening, so why should they not be reported on. No one is saying it will happen, but it sure could.
2
As someone who was an exchange student in Ireland during the troubles, yeah, I think Ireland would reunite 32 counties in a heartbeat, no matter the costs. The costs which, by the way, they could look to the EU to help subsidize.
4
Surely there must be a way to re-referendum this. Surely the referendum itself does not formally decree exit from the EU. Wouldn't a decree from the Prime Minister wipe the referendum results?
3
The referendum is not strictly binding, but is impossible too ignore. The best chance of staying in the EU is pressure from Scotland and Northern Ireland who both decisively voted to remain in the EU. Otherwise, you won't simply have the UK exiting the EU, you will most likely won't have a UK anymore.
197
Is there a way to re-referendum votes in the U.S.? No. People are given ONE chance; you'd think they'd take that opportunity much more seriously.
5
and if that referendum did not produce th results YOU want, bc after all, what else matters but what YOU want, then what ?
a re- re- referendum
and after that a re re re referendum ?
where does it end ?
oh, i know
when YOU get what YOU want, bc thats your version of democracy, me-jority rule
a re- re- referendum
and after that a re re re referendum ?
where does it end ?
oh, i know
when YOU get what YOU want, bc thats your version of democracy, me-jority rule
38
I really thought the people of Britain were more thoughtful about their decisions. Clearly, they did not think through the Brexit decision. The people who voted for Brexit have done so at their expense with repercussions to be felt for many years. They may limit immigration but I doubt seriously if they will change the status of their under-employment and lack of education. They have decided to isolate themselves from a world that will not go back to a time period prior to globalization. As there will always be winners and losers, they may have to number themselves among the "free" losers because of their inability to adjust and change. They will be in charge of their nation but they may not have much to be in charge of. Yes, they have taken their nation back, but from whom remains to be determined.
244
Substitute "America" for "Britain" in your comment. Then substitute "Trump" for "Brexit." There, you have it!
20
Maybe they were heeding the wisdom of one of their greatest poets when they chose "Hard liberty before the easy yoke of servile pomp" (Paradise Lost)
3
You can disagree with their decision, but why would you assume they were not thoughtful? I don't get this attitude, specially from Democrats-if the public agrees with leftist (not liberal, anymore), the public is smart, if they don't, then they are just stupid and uneducated.
2
If the 52 to 48 vote went the other way, the other side would not be calling for a re-vote. You lost, get over it, move on.
And enjoy your incredible increase in the hospitality business from foreign and domestic tourists, an increase in exports, and not have un-elected aristocratic socialists from Brussels telling you how to manage your affairs.
And enjoy your incredible increase in the hospitality business from foreign and domestic tourists, an increase in exports, and not have un-elected aristocratic socialists from Brussels telling you how to manage your affairs.
36
You're forgetting that UK exporters may have (are likely to have) a proportion of non-Sterling costs, offsetting the 'benefits' of a drop in the Sterling given the Sterling has dropped against virtually every currency.
3
Geez...really, you are going to replace 16,000 jobs in an Airbus supplier in Sunderland with more hospitality jobs? And a diminished financial industry? Or car productions? Who is doing the bar tending and the room cleaning with the Eastern Europeans sent home?
And how exactly is this influx of foreigners going to happen? Americans drawn to the cheap pound, yup, may be...but Europeans will go elsewhere where they are welcome and won't have to endure newly established border controls. Looks to me like the domestic tourists will a bit busy with their declining stock options and property values. There is a reason for the reported turmoil...not even the "Leave" people wanted this to happen. They just wanted to benefit politically...other than that its a headache, and an expensive one.
And how exactly is this influx of foreigners going to happen? Americans drawn to the cheap pound, yup, may be...but Europeans will go elsewhere where they are welcome and won't have to endure newly established border controls. Looks to me like the domestic tourists will a bit busy with their declining stock options and property values. There is a reason for the reported turmoil...not even the "Leave" people wanted this to happen. They just wanted to benefit politically...other than that its a headache, and an expensive one.
5
If the Airbus in Sunderland is providing excellent products at a reasonable price, tell me why the 16,000 jobs are threatened. If their are American companies that supply Airbus, why in the world would the UK not be able to supply Airbus?
3
Do I feel a short breath of relief from the "Times" that Trump doesn't HAVE to be the top story every day? We've got a new outrage to contend with; hurray! How about spending time telling us the positions/solutions of all those involved in Britain's and America's futures. Apparently most Brits didn't really know what they were voting for or against. Please let Americans know the objective facts about what our candidates represent!
56
Lord, what fools these mortals be!
12
Time will tell. And since when have Americans been immortal? At least the British never voted in Reagan or W. Bush.
3
Political maneuvering, Politicians trying to hang on to power, but run from their old positions that have proven unpopular continue to show the ridiculousness of people subjecting themselves to enslavement under a permanent political class.
3
If Trump's buddy, Vladimir Putin is happy with Brexit, and Trump is happy with Brexit, then we should all have our heads examined if we plan to vote for Trump. So much for his having an understanding of American and European security issues. Trump is clueless, uneducated about matters of state and is a danger both domestically and internationally. He couldn't care less about the average American as evidenced by the decreased values of our retirement accounts on Friday. All he cares about are his best golf properties, with the best suites, views and food. If you think he has your best interests at heart, think again. This narcissist will make himself great before he makes America great!
293
BIS wrote: "If Trump's buddy, Vladimir Putin is happy with Brexit, and Trump is happy with Brexit, then we should all have our heads examined if we plan to vote for Trump. So much for his having an understanding of American and European security issues."
It is you who don't understand that security is a NATO issue, and that is unaffected by Brexit. It does not even depend on the EU's existence.
It is you who don't understand that security is a NATO issue, and that is unaffected by Brexit. It does not even depend on the EU's existence.
1