May young adults learn the lesson that to have an impact on your future and the world, you must engage in it and develop critical reasoning skills, sorely lacking among much of the world's people.
17
Younger people are statistically less likely to have yet encountered an unelected bureaucrat come in and ruin one's life work. Stick around on this planet long enough, and you eventually meet Kafka's progeny.
28
Brexit passed. The world will end next week.
10
British youth are reportedly shocked and distraught that their country has turned inward with Brexit, in their view toward parochialism. That many of the positive aspects of being part of an integrated Europe had always been assumed, and now were likely to be upended.
Trump is appealing to the same fears in his campaign found in the Brexit vote, in particular, fear of immigration and fear of Muslims (under the guise of “terrorism”).
Young supporters of Bernie Sanders in the U.S. should take sober reflection of this. You do not represent the majority of voters in this country. You do not represent a minority. You represent a small, albeit important, minority.
The primaries are over and now there is a binary choice: Trump or Clinton. That is the bi-party system you live in, Hatfields versus McCoys.
There is no "third path." If the vote for Clinton is either split or suppressed, you may wake up in November with all three branches of government controlled by Republicans, and a racist demagogue as your President.
And, like the stunned youth in Britain today, many of the things you have come to take for granted in your short lives would also be in danger of serious setbacks – such as expanding gay and civil rights, greater diversity, greater gender equality, greater progress re the environment, greater religious tolerance, etc.
Trump is appealing to the same fears in his campaign found in the Brexit vote, in particular, fear of immigration and fear of Muslims (under the guise of “terrorism”).
Young supporters of Bernie Sanders in the U.S. should take sober reflection of this. You do not represent the majority of voters in this country. You do not represent a minority. You represent a small, albeit important, minority.
The primaries are over and now there is a binary choice: Trump or Clinton. That is the bi-party system you live in, Hatfields versus McCoys.
There is no "third path." If the vote for Clinton is either split or suppressed, you may wake up in November with all three branches of government controlled by Republicans, and a racist demagogue as your President.
And, like the stunned youth in Britain today, many of the things you have come to take for granted in your short lives would also be in danger of serious setbacks – such as expanding gay and civil rights, greater diversity, greater gender equality, greater progress re the environment, greater religious tolerance, etc.
88
June 25, 2016
Gross ineptitude with all in the EU and in UK to lead - and state a plan of responsible effective policy to resolve issues with the members of Union so that this Cameron lead referendum would have been resolved to avoid - what is always the case for failure to embrace the language of working towards mediation and a result that would have won with a mandate – rather than schizoid –everything ----that all modernity is not asked to decipher – where is Alan Turning where we need code breakers – starting with everyone – messing around with laws – walls - and retro yesterday promising a new heaven and earth…. Including the Russians, Sunni in Iraq and Syria and yes Donald Trump
JJA Manhattan, N. Y.
Gross ineptitude with all in the EU and in UK to lead - and state a plan of responsible effective policy to resolve issues with the members of Union so that this Cameron lead referendum would have been resolved to avoid - what is always the case for failure to embrace the language of working towards mediation and a result that would have won with a mandate – rather than schizoid –everything ----that all modernity is not asked to decipher – where is Alan Turning where we need code breakers – starting with everyone – messing around with laws – walls - and retro yesterday promising a new heaven and earth…. Including the Russians, Sunni in Iraq and Syria and yes Donald Trump
JJA Manhattan, N. Y.
1
So British young people sound a lot like U.S. Millennials. Whine and cry and get all the attention, yet do absolutely nothing to effect change- including failing to vote, ever.
24
"57 percent of Britons between the ages of 18 and 34 supported remaining in the bloc"; Thus many many between 18 and 34 actually did support leaving. Let's keep the stats in mind and not broad brush. Clearly the Times is against brexit. got it.
33
Scotland: In 2014 over FOUR Million voters participated in the Scottish referendum on whether to seek independence from the UK (4,283,392,000). By comparison, only TWO million Scottish voters participated in Brexit (2,679,513,000). This makes me think - Scottish voters were more concerned about staying with the UK - than staying in the EU. While it makes for great political posturing, Ms. Sturgeon better do some serious polling before she says anymore.
17
How awful!
now the young who are going to want to work or travel abroad are going to have to apply for visas, or heaven forbid, get a passport...
Life sure is tough.
now the young who are going to want to work or travel abroad are going to have to apply for visas, or heaven forbid, get a passport...
Life sure is tough.
30
As disunity begins to take over in Europe, Putin is rubbing his hands in glee.
Young people and justifiably disgruntled workers, you are misplacing your anger,
just they have in the US.
Young people and justifiably disgruntled workers, you are misplacing your anger,
just they have in the US.
6
Democracy hurts sometimes.
GK Chesterton:
Secret people.
'We are the people England we haven't spoken yet'.
We have now.
GK Chesterton:
Secret people.
'We are the people England we haven't spoken yet'.
We have now.
10
the young folks will find a way to fix the mistakes of the generations before them
5
Why not another referendum before taking such a momentous step?
7
Canada will admit up to 300,000 permanent residents (immigrants) this year - a record in the last few decades'
We will have to think about being rules by a Queen - a temporary foreign worker - from a xenophobic island.
Canexit!
We will have to think about being rules by a Queen - a temporary foreign worker - from a xenophobic island.
Canexit!
6
Youth are "terrified" because they are not in a trade union? That makes sense to me...they are too young and spoiled to understand what life is really about.
I would feel terrified too if I was Mr. Jack who, "worried that his plans to study in Romania on the European Union’s student-exchange program, Erasmus, were in jeopardy." I mean OMG, the horror! Right?
To the youth (specifically the affluent youth) of Britain, Keep Calm and Carry On. You control your destiny, not a bunch of unelected rich old white guys in Brussels. You will make Britain greater and more prosperous than it ever was in the EU. And eventually you will also understand that there is more to life than just money, specifically other people's money, used to pay for youthful lifestyles.
I would feel terrified too if I was Mr. Jack who, "worried that his plans to study in Romania on the European Union’s student-exchange program, Erasmus, were in jeopardy." I mean OMG, the horror! Right?
To the youth (specifically the affluent youth) of Britain, Keep Calm and Carry On. You control your destiny, not a bunch of unelected rich old white guys in Brussels. You will make Britain greater and more prosperous than it ever was in the EU. And eventually you will also understand that there is more to life than just money, specifically other people's money, used to pay for youthful lifestyles.
18
Well, the age group from 18 to 34 in the UK will never take voting for granted! They will be voting every election.
Hats off to ALL the people of the UK for the voter turnout - if only enough Americans could give a darn enough to turn out in those kinds of numbers!
Hats off to ALL the people of the UK for the voter turnout - if only enough Americans could give a darn enough to turn out in those kinds of numbers!
16
Doesn't this say it all?
“Truly gutted that our grandparents have effectively decided that they hate foreigners more than they love us and our futures,” one young Briton, Dan Boden, wrote on Twitter.
“Truly gutted that our grandparents have effectively decided that they hate foreigners more than they love us and our futures,” one young Briton, Dan Boden, wrote on Twitter.
13
It is not right to say that the elders have only a few years to live and youngsters have many years left. If you apply that logic, elders shouldn't be allowed to vote or determine the future of the country. Let the young make all the decisions. That would be tyranny and fundamentally against the principles of democracy. Why don't you simply exile all those above 60 to an island?
12
"Young Britons Fear and Despair"?!
Oh, poor dearies, are they afraid their frequent beach vacations in the EU will be lost somehow?! Terrified that tolls will go up for the Chunnel? Alarmed they will lose their study-grants in Edinburgh?
Get thee to a safe space!
Oh, poor dearies, are they afraid their frequent beach vacations in the EU will be lost somehow?! Terrified that tolls will go up for the Chunnel? Alarmed they will lose their study-grants in Edinburgh?
Get thee to a safe space!
27
Why is a 21 year old barista afraid? Will people suddenly quit drinking latte and expresso?
23
Blame Frau Merkel for convincing so many Britons to vote for a Brexit. Her disgracefully high-handed fashion of pressuring her fellow Europeans to take in all of the Syrian refugees in an indiscriminate fashion was the impetus for the Brits to scream NO to a pseudo-dictatorship. To my mind, Merkel and Juncker deserve to figure in a gallery of portraits of 21st century infamy, along with George W. Bush and Tony Blair-- vandals one and all.
17
In England, as well has here in the US, voting counts. If you want to either scrap or keep the status quo, then you must vote. 18-24 year-old take note.
13
The People have spoken we must accept their Vote that is what their Grand Fathers and them fought for
9
The term for it, I think, is "cutting off your nose to spite your face." I'm sure it feels really good to vote against what you call the "1%" or "establishment." For a few days. But,then Britain will have to live with its noseless face for generations.
As will the US, when we cut off our own noses to elect Donald Trump, and then find him thumbing his nose at the angry masses who voted for him.
As will the US, when we cut off our own noses to elect Donald Trump, and then find him thumbing his nose at the angry masses who voted for him.
10
Brexit is total stupid. Brits will start repenting so soon. Nationalistic slogans are always loud , popular and leads to a dangerous consequence.
11
Voting should be only to people who are going to live it,that is the under 60 years of age. As the Paris Climate Change meeting of last year, Youth should be represented , more so that the older people responsible for the whole mess.
By the way , I am one of the older people.
By the way , I am one of the older people.
4
Dear young Britons, who are fearing and despairing now.
You have confused old age voters with your parents and your kindergarten teacher. Oldies don't care about you. They were young once, they were promised a good life by the politicians. What they got was immigrants down the street, stagnant wages, and rich people in London who told them to eat cake.
If you had gone to med school, NHS would not need Indian doctors. If you had gone to engineering school, your economy would not need foreign born talent. If you took risks, there would be no foreign owned shops. You didn't. If you went into construction, carpentry, plumbing or wiring, meat packing, or hauling - you would be fine. You chose to study Latin, English Lit, Feel Good, and Communication - as if it was 1916, not 2016.
The old want a return to Downton. A benevolent lord; Irish, Welsh and Scotts in service. No foreigners. Law and order. Unions. And the return of colonies that their grandparents talked to them about.
Now get in line behind them, and continue sniffing the Facebook glue and the social media opium. Order has returned to them, they are in control, you are not. Deal with it.
Cheers.
Kalidan
You have confused old age voters with your parents and your kindergarten teacher. Oldies don't care about you. They were young once, they were promised a good life by the politicians. What they got was immigrants down the street, stagnant wages, and rich people in London who told them to eat cake.
If you had gone to med school, NHS would not need Indian doctors. If you had gone to engineering school, your economy would not need foreign born talent. If you took risks, there would be no foreign owned shops. You didn't. If you went into construction, carpentry, plumbing or wiring, meat packing, or hauling - you would be fine. You chose to study Latin, English Lit, Feel Good, and Communication - as if it was 1916, not 2016.
The old want a return to Downton. A benevolent lord; Irish, Welsh and Scotts in service. No foreigners. Law and order. Unions. And the return of colonies that their grandparents talked to them about.
Now get in line behind them, and continue sniffing the Facebook glue and the social media opium. Order has returned to them, they are in control, you are not. Deal with it.
Cheers.
Kalidan
15
Oh, well, we had a good run. Signed, Normal Perspn.
1
"Fear and Despair." So does Brexit qualify as a microagression? Perhaps we need a safe space filled with fluffy animals and ice cream.
14
America, this is the exact same feeling you will have if you vote Trump in! Please, think, a lot of these people wanted to send a message to the 'elites', or the 'GOP' do something, so a protest vote, many are overwhelmingly unhappy.
Both my parents were from the UK, so I have many relatives in England and Wales who are fearful and very unhappy. They voted to remain. They asked us in the US to 'do something'.
We have our own enormous orange problem not unlike Boris and that villain Nigel.
Both my parents were from the UK, so I have many relatives in England and Wales who are fearful and very unhappy. They voted to remain. They asked us in the US to 'do something'.
We have our own enormous orange problem not unlike Boris and that villain Nigel.
12
Nice to see that the U.S. doesn't hold a monopoly when its comes to naive, melodramatic young voters who literally cry when they don't get their way.
20
But, as a group, the young had the lowest turnout. So the fear and anger over the results is largely their own (non)doing.
18
The Dursleys have won in Britain. The rabid nativists are a real threat to world peace, prosperity and progress.
4
Let me get this straight. Four people wrote this story and presumably at least one editor read it, and it never mentions what the turnout was among the youth? I heard 40% if that helps. No wonder Brexit passed.
22
I think the English should be able to Brexit if they believe it's right. It was a referendum for god's sake!
13
True, there is a gaping generational divide between those who want to stay in the EU and progress through the 21st Century against those older Brits who voted to exit, believing all the lies and yearning for past times of UK "glory."
Just as important, there is a serious division between those who "yearn" and vote and those who don't vote for whatever reason. If you're a "millennial" and didn't vote, you betrayed your generation and chose to destroy your future.
The "non-voters" are the problem, not the misinformed "older" generations who still live in the "analogue" world.
Just as important, there is a serious division between those who "yearn" and vote and those who don't vote for whatever reason. If you're a "millennial" and didn't vote, you betrayed your generation and chose to destroy your future.
The "non-voters" are the problem, not the misinformed "older" generations who still live in the "analogue" world.
10
Sometimes, the right thing to do is the hard thing to do. The EU has run its course. The world is changing, and a country that clings to the old may feel safe...but that safety is an illusion.
England has survived for a thousand years, so they must be doing something right. At some point you need to believe that the collective wisdom is correct. The people have no agenda except a better life...unlike the pundits and other members of the elite.
England has survived for a thousand years, so they must be doing something right. At some point you need to believe that the collective wisdom is correct. The people have no agenda except a better life...unlike the pundits and other members of the elite.
6
People need to become educated and independent and not depend upon unions.
2
From an older American, and to quote a trite aphorism for UK youth, I feel your pain. I cannot escape your perception that your older, more fearful, more insular forebears have sold your cosmopolitain aspirations down the river. Although I feel no need to apologize personally, I am a member of an age demographic and apologize on behalf of its behavior.
My only counsel to you in the UK, and my successors in the USA, is to seize your futures by relentless participation in the democratic process. You are being told that Brexit is irreversible. Do not accept this. If what was done can be undone, then what was rent asunder can one day be recovered, no matter what Nigel Farage and Donald Trump might tell you.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
My only counsel to you in the UK, and my successors in the USA, is to seize your futures by relentless participation in the democratic process. You are being told that Brexit is irreversible. Do not accept this. If what was done can be undone, then what was rent asunder can one day be recovered, no matter what Nigel Farage and Donald Trump might tell you.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
10
The shapes are shifting. Youngsters with smooth hands are disturbed. This may mean higher fares on Euro-Cheap Airlines, a disturbance under smartphone earbuds, a tingle in the angst. Daddy will take care of it as he makes the 'Leave' voters pay. Oh they will pay dearly. But 'they' don't care, they have been paying some unelected face in Brussels for too long. A curious face, slits for pupils, royal jelly in it's veins. Smooth hands unless disturbed. Oh they will pay dearly.
7
This is great. Now Great Britain has joined us as the world's trailer trash reality show. They passed this exit without planning to deal with the effects. The British government is dumbfounded, saying "Now what?" How do you put all that effort into a campaign and fail to plan for the result? Oh wait, Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Must be an English speaking character defect.
14
Imagine having your country's destiny put in the hands of the kinds of people I saw interviewed in pubs yesterday---waving that British flag with a beer in their hands shouting leave, leave, leave. I see the same behavior at Trump rallies---anger at being left behind and in their minds disrespected. The tragedy for young people is having your futures in the hands of groups whose time spent in pubs could have been better spent in some form of training for an economy that will now become even more difficult to navigate.
5
I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old and reading this article is like reading a one sided propaganda fest! After months of discussion, looking at ALL of the facts and carefully considering the impact that an unelected political elite based overseas has on their country... They both voted exit. They are informed, well educated and do not fear change. Brexit means the world will look different, not necessarily worse. To read this pile of **** you'd think the bombs were dropping in our streets and the catoclism had arrived. Please can we move away from jingoistic and ageist sound bites and instead applaud democracy in action!
18
It's strange. When I was young I thought that my elders had no idea what they were talking about. Yet in none of the years that have passed since then could I honestly say that I ended the year knowing less than I did when that year began. The math just doesn't seem to work out.
7
Young people in the UK are now whinging about not having the right to study, work, live in EU countries. How will they build those friendships and romances? The same way Americans, Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis do, by applying as non-EU students. If you really really want to work in Serbia, you will find a way to use your skills, transcript, qualification and talents there.
The UK press reported that the youth vote -- 18-30, I believe -- was only 35%. It’s not enough to “like” Remain on Facebook. You have to actually get out there in bad weather, stand in a queue, and vote.
The UK press reported that the youth vote -- 18-30, I believe -- was only 35%. It’s not enough to “like” Remain on Facebook. You have to actually get out there in bad weather, stand in a queue, and vote.
16
P.M. Cameron has rightly offered his resignation. But where are the leaders of the main opposition party, a party many of the young in the UK prefer or join? Did those failing "leaders" fall on their swords given the map which shows the heart of the Leave vote (often overwhelmingly so) was in Labor territory?
No, instead the preserved in amber 1968 student radical Corbyn whose lukewarm support for Remain was palpable, tried to blame it all on government "cuts" to social institutions. No said he, it wasn't nationalism and rampant xenophobia ginned up by Britain's notorious tabloids. It was Tory policies, not the hysterical imagining of immigrant Islamic hordes. Talk about clueless or disingenuous. The young who support Labor need to take a reckoning of that party's dismal performance, incoherent and feckless "leadership" and obvious disconnect with their own voters.
No, instead the preserved in amber 1968 student radical Corbyn whose lukewarm support for Remain was palpable, tried to blame it all on government "cuts" to social institutions. No said he, it wasn't nationalism and rampant xenophobia ginned up by Britain's notorious tabloids. It was Tory policies, not the hysterical imagining of immigrant Islamic hordes. Talk about clueless or disingenuous. The young who support Labor need to take a reckoning of that party's dismal performance, incoherent and feckless "leadership" and obvious disconnect with their own voters.
5
After hundreds of years of stealing land, raping natives, genocide, slave trading worth trillions, and a colonial "commonwealth" that brought evil riches to this very war-like people, let them look inward at their evil legacy and muffle down their kidney pies and jellied eels. Alone. At last. Where they deserve to be.
7
Will players from the UK still be able to play on the European Ryder Cup team?
I don't know what is more depressing, the worm turning that created the Brexit or the possibility we in the US could see the same sort of madness in a Trump presidency. Our youth need to take a lesson from this. You must get out and vote. You must participate in your democracy. Do this or everyone must live with the consequences.
6
Take heart, Britons. Now you will get to determine your own future, both socially and economically. No longer will you have to kowtow to a group of fat cat politicians in Europe who want to create a one world order. We can only hope that the American people will take a lesson from your courageous decision. Long live Great Britain, a free and sovereign nation.
9
Not being a fan of the British Empire, the United Kingdom or its dominions, that being said why all the panic, swooning, accusations etc.? Democracy had its way. The people have spoken so let the chips fall where they may.
4
Millions upon millions of people, spurred by xenophobia, bigotry and fear, vote against their own self-interest. Hmmm, imagine that.
5
The big question is whether or not Great Britain will allow Scotland to stand in for GB's membership in the EU. Undoubtedly, Scotland will pass a resolution to separate from old GB and request membership in the EU.
Then all people in GB under 30 move to Scotland....now is that cool!!!!
Then all people in GB under 30 move to Scotland....now is that cool!!!!
6
When the full extent of the consequences hit the street, some years down the road, they will be back.
3
What a disaster, but one would hope that this would be some sort of wake-up call for those, especially in Germany, whose economic and immigration policies are helping to ruin and harm their neighbors. The EU member states share responsibility for this awful result. And low-information voters checking the internet AFTER voting! And who ever heard of a referendum as a way to govern!?!
Terrible policy on all sides, and a terrible result for the country. Let's pray that the US does NOT follow suit from this.
Terrible policy on all sides, and a terrible result for the country. Let's pray that the US does NOT follow suit from this.
1
Old bigots deliberately destroying the country out of blind race hate. One can understand why young people might be upset, and looking to leave the country en mass.
The UK will lose Ireland and Scotland within the next six months, leaving England and Wales to drown their economic sorrows in warm beer and tales of past glories....if they can afford beer.
The UK will lose Ireland and Scotland within the next six months, leaving England and Wales to drown their economic sorrows in warm beer and tales of past glories....if they can afford beer.
2
As a 30 something living in a state who is bringing in refugees by the tens of thousands, I can say that it is a disaster! I've worked my butt off making something of myself while these people live off of welfare and insulate themselves, discriminating me for having blonde hair and basically seeing America as "their country"! They don't even contribute to society but take from it, commit crime, plotting terrorist attacks and wreak havoc on a great state which may not be great anymore! I can understand and I see exactly why England wants to take back its borders. I wish my state would do the same! I don't like Donald Trump but what he says is what a lot of people feel,. This ideas of globalization has been pushed down our throats and for what, a select few to get rich? Hats off to England! I applaud you and hope that the US will do the same!
9
Thank God for the young people, let the old people go to their graves and have a new referendum in a few years.
1
Fear and despair? Oh brother. The sky will not fall if a bunch or bureaucrats from Brussels need to find honest work. The main stream media are the lapdogs of the global banking class and do their bidding. The coverage of Brexit has been sooooooooooooo one sided it's not funny.
13
Years ago, my father, a veteran of WWII and the Korean War, rejected the popular sentiment that his was "greatest generation" because they so often voted against the interest of their own children and future generations
4
We are about to suffer a similar tradgedy when Trump gets elected in November for the same reasons: ignorance, fear, lies. God help us.
1
BREXIT EU Nations have 2 years to work out the details of the Brexit, plenty of time for the Brits to introduce a recall of this awful referendum. I hope those most threatened by the Brexit will get started immediately in preparing a referendum recall and scanning and sending copies of each petition as it is dated and signed to all members of Parliament. The squeaking wheel gets the oil.
2
Fascinating how these old-timers who will be retired or dead some 10 years from now messed up their kids future.
2
I am hearing too many 'elderly' this and that dumping. The 'elderly' have put their time in building the UK and have just as much right as any citizen to have their voice heard. BTW, the most rancor comes from the youngest who don't never experienced the UK the vote wants to go back to. The 'elderly' have seen the UK in and out of the European Union. Perhaps that gives them a wider perspective. This might turn out better or not for the UK as a whole, only time will tell.
12
The United Kingdom has decided to leave the biggest economic zone since the Roman Empire. They seem to prefer the crevasse of the unknown than the problems of the known.
7
Young people are the future. I think it's the UK, not the EU, that's over. Ireland and Scotland are going to look more attractive to business and innovation, and bright young people will be thinking about emigrating. Ireland could see a flow reversal, with Brits entering rather than the usual Irish leaving.
4
It seems this article overstates the divide. After all, close to 50% of younger voters voted to leave, too. It was not an overwhelming difference.
11
Hey, we've been throwing the younger generation under the bus here in the US for many years. Pay close attention: Infrastructure, education, healthcare, livable urban communities. Watch it go.
5
I find the gerontophobia pervasive in the comments to be disturbing to say the least. God forbid the day older citizens have less rights than younger ones, but I guess wisdom comes with age means nothing to these know-it-all twentysomethings.
14
Brits do not take this down. Time to stand and fight. The referendum was a mistake but if people do not want to lose their England. Young people do not want to lose their future. No one wants to see one of the greatest country's in history turned into a feeble old cowardly ignoble tinid people.
" cowardly dogs ye not aid me then"
For the love of England stand up .
" cowardly dogs ye not aid me then"
For the love of England stand up .
6
What a slap in the face for England to vote "Leave" after Scotland vote "No" on leaving Britain! Scotland will undoubtedly now leave the UK (hopefully with Northern Ireland) leaving England and Wales to wallow in their singularity.
Perhaps Scotland and Ireland will offer safe haven for young English in search of a EU passport, causing a further brain drain from England.
Perhaps Scotland and Ireland will offer safe haven for young English in search of a EU passport, causing a further brain drain from England.
10
The main lesson of THE EXIT is that governments can no longer ignore the concerns of a significant portion of their citizens. One example: immigration quotas mandated by the EU. People were legitimately concerned that it was starting to feel like their country was becoming over-run by people from countries that do not share their basic values and outlook on life. Anti-Brexit forces quickly dismiss this concern and brand it xnophobic, anti-immigrant. Now the other EU members can take a hard look at what's bugging a large number of their people and start to come up with solutions that work, or be faced with an exit-vote of their own. So in the long, and short run, Brexit was good. It gives the other countries a chance to correct some of the flaws of their system.
14
Baby boomers when they were young led a revolution in a break from the WWII generation and gave the world notice that they would be different and would leave a better world.
Now that they are their parents age and they have become their parents age and ascended to power, baby boomers are showing whom they are. Baby boomers are much more self-centered and fearful than their parents, and willing to sacrifice, but only if that sacrifice comes at the expense of others.
Whether is is the EU, global warming, etc., if it costs the baby boomer money, uncomfort or sacrifice, pass it on to the next generation.
Sorry millennial but you will need to clean the mess we have created and will continue to create.
And to all the baby boomers out there, you can only wish you has the fortitude of your parents. The world would have better off if you did.
Now that they are their parents age and they have become their parents age and ascended to power, baby boomers are showing whom they are. Baby boomers are much more self-centered and fearful than their parents, and willing to sacrifice, but only if that sacrifice comes at the expense of others.
Whether is is the EU, global warming, etc., if it costs the baby boomer money, uncomfort or sacrifice, pass it on to the next generation.
Sorry millennial but you will need to clean the mess we have created and will continue to create.
And to all the baby boomers out there, you can only wish you has the fortitude of your parents. The world would have better off if you did.
3
Seems it's more comforting to blame their elders for their diminished dreams than the age-peers peers who didn't bother to vote on the referendum. I understand completely, having grown up in an era when "never trust anyone over 30" was typically recited as a gospel truth.
6
This article is just fueling more division, this time between different age-groups.
Let me see if I get it. All that hogwash about immigration was just a scare tactic to get people to vote to leave. Somehow young Millennials understood this better than the three generations of voters older than them (Xers, boomers, and silents). But all those daft old folks who still read "newspapers" rather than "doing their own research" and who haven't been enlightened from a semester drunk abroad on an EU scholarship fell for the ploys of the evil, non-fact based press of the UK.
This wasn't just a choice to leave one European institution, it was somehow a vote to imprison the population and make a 100 & break with all other things European. I mean if you're not in the EU, you're clearly doomed like Norway, Iceland & Switzerland
So, to summarize, this was a catastrophe brought upon the young people of the UK by their ignorant elders tricked by the irresponsible tabloid press, who duped them about immigration related issues. Of course this is totally supported by overwhelming evidence. I mean 57% is a complete landslide. 57% of the oldest voting one way and 57% of the youngest voting the other way.
"How'd you do your exams son?" "Great Dad. I got a 57%, so that means I have total mastery of the subject." "I'm so proud of you son."
The sky is not falling. There is no group to blame. It doesn't mean the end of Europe nor does it say anything about the health of democracy.
Let me see if I get it. All that hogwash about immigration was just a scare tactic to get people to vote to leave. Somehow young Millennials understood this better than the three generations of voters older than them (Xers, boomers, and silents). But all those daft old folks who still read "newspapers" rather than "doing their own research" and who haven't been enlightened from a semester drunk abroad on an EU scholarship fell for the ploys of the evil, non-fact based press of the UK.
This wasn't just a choice to leave one European institution, it was somehow a vote to imprison the population and make a 100 & break with all other things European. I mean if you're not in the EU, you're clearly doomed like Norway, Iceland & Switzerland
So, to summarize, this was a catastrophe brought upon the young people of the UK by their ignorant elders tricked by the irresponsible tabloid press, who duped them about immigration related issues. Of course this is totally supported by overwhelming evidence. I mean 57% is a complete landslide. 57% of the oldest voting one way and 57% of the youngest voting the other way.
"How'd you do your exams son?" "Great Dad. I got a 57%, so that means I have total mastery of the subject." "I'm so proud of you son."
The sky is not falling. There is no group to blame. It doesn't mean the end of Europe nor does it say anything about the health of democracy.
10
Pointing out the fearful, tribal mentality of their elders is a good place to start, but young Brits and young people all over the world who believe in a global society based on inclusive, humanist values are going to have to become politically and socially active, right now. There's not a lot of time to turn things around, but the risks of not doing so are appalling to consider.
3
I am in Spain now. Europe is shocked and rightly so. The British have voted for the dismantling of the U.K. The older generations have locked the young in the xenophobic, nationalistic, "Little England" mindset that will take away their hope to be part of the global world and global economy. Comparisons with the Sanders' vote in the US are misguided. Sanders was as much an anti-globalist, anti-elitist, anti-intellectual demagogue as the leaders of UKIP. The U.K. Is still a great power, intellectually and politically, if not militarily. Now it has voluntarily relegated itself to a secondary status.
3
The decision to have the Brexit referendum just shows how one man's ambition can bring down a country a peg or two. The US certainly has had its share of know-nothings who made catastrophic decisions, took us to war, ruined the financial industry. But we anglophiles thought better of the British leaders, even the tories.
3
There is some great film footage from London on VE Day in 1945, when hundreds of thousands of people mobbed Buckingham Palace where Churchill joined the royal family to mark the German surrender. There wasn't a nonwhite face to be seen. Today 40% of London's population is nonwhite. London has been called "Londonistan" for 20 years because of its large south Asian immigrant community. A couple of years ago a London policeman of south Asian descent sued the London Police because he objected to the presence of a cross on the London coat-of-arms-patch present on his uniform (he lost). There was the subway bombing, the stabbing death of the soldier, the British accent of "Jihad John", the masked and murderous spokesman for ISIL, and this year, a citizen of south Asian heritage named Kahn was elected mayor of London. It is easy to see how your average Englishman feels his identity is under siege. And unlike the immigrants from Asia, the Caribbean and elsewhere, they have nowhere else to go. I know a lot of people reading this will dismiss this as racist, but it is precisely those dismissive attitudes of the elites toward the working class English that resulted in the vote to leave the EU.
7
If I were a young citizen of the UK and my parents voted for Brexit, I would be sure to make their retirement and old age as punerous, lonely, and wretched as I possibly could wihtin the confines of the law.
2
What is completely missing from the piece is that only 40% of those eligible voters between the ages of 18 and 24 bothered to turn out and vote. The disheartening feature of that statistic is that it is nut unusual. To the young people in America (I am a Canadian but deeply concerned for your country), get out and vote!
6
75% of the young people wanted to stay in the EU, they weren't heard, their future was at stake, but hate and fear overshadowed common sense. I am shocked by this vote and fear now the outcome in November more than ever. Does that mean President Trump (I shudder just typing it) is possible?
2
All the 18-24 yr old and others especially those who didn't bother to vote how about getting out and teaching people what it really means to Leave or Remain - the pros and the cons.
Stop whining and fight back by educating people.
Fact not fear. Reality not mirage. Society not self-service.
Remember it was a referendum, which MAY result in adoption. There is no law saying it has to be so and now the Leave camp seem hesitant to get the ball rolling out and Leave agitators are back pedaling on claims made about more money for the NHS and less immigration. All self-serving politicians to the last! But, everyone knew that - I am always amazed that time after time politicians promises are believed, when time after time they are proven to be empty, even outright lies. People are surely not that stupid - lazy, irresponsible, yes.
Stop whining and fight back by educating people.
Fact not fear. Reality not mirage. Society not self-service.
Remember it was a referendum, which MAY result in adoption. There is no law saying it has to be so and now the Leave camp seem hesitant to get the ball rolling out and Leave agitators are back pedaling on claims made about more money for the NHS and less immigration. All self-serving politicians to the last! But, everyone knew that - I am always amazed that time after time politicians promises are believed, when time after time they are proven to be empty, even outright lies. People are surely not that stupid - lazy, irresponsible, yes.
1
Isn't this all vastly overblown. I mean, so what? The US isn't part of the EU, yet we have a very constructive relationship with them. Our banking sector does not suffer from not being a part. Tarriffs and such can be reduced independent of whether or not there is EU membership.
So what's the big deal?
12
A decision made in anger and emotion rarely turns out well. The yearning to go back in time to what seems like a "golden" time, to make America (or Britain) "great" again, is understandable but it is a retreat from reality. We are not going back and the young generation understand this. The world as it is may be frightening to many, but it is a world that has limitless opportunities for the young and ambitious. The ill advised referendum in Britain will not succeed in turning back the clock. The world marches on, with or without those who cower in fear and nostalgia.
7
If Brussels is despotic then so is Parliament with its "unelected" prime minister and cabinet and the "unelected" British bureaucracy. So instead of remote despots you'll get "national" despots. Or you can take it to the county and city level and get "local" despots. Or take it to the household where you can rail against that despot in the kitchen who won't serve you the biscuits you want because you're supposed to be on the diet that despot doctor put you on. Brexit is about the illusion of personal control -- the illusion that makes people feel safer driving than flying because they overestimate their own ability to drive and don't trust the pilot they can not see. It's what drives passengers in cars to push on imaginary break pedals in reaction to the real driver's actions as the we passengers always feel we could do a better job driving the car. (or driving the ball on the playing field -- our losing teams being, of course, just a bunch of bums and we fans always knowing we could have done better if we'd been playing the game. The reality is Brexit was caused by the fact 40 years of deregulated neo-liberal laissez faire economics and a deconstructed social welfare safety net which did exactly what it was intended to – push wealth to a small investment class thinking it would then trickle down to the masses. Problem is money is sticky and without political intervention the wealth of the rich stays there. Hence the anger of Brexit and the 2016 US election.
10
Of course those to blame are not the people, but the ones in power who created the situation and the referendum. How can you say it's people's fault when they are powerless and have been, years after years, forced to follow policies that they didn't approve. The guilty party here is the elite who forgot that demos (people) is the basis for democracy, and in such regimes, everything can change on a dime if they forget that fact.
3
Maybe five percent of those kids have pieces of the puzzle worked out. The others are just along for the thrill of anarchy. Party in the square mile, mate!
4
It's sad to further contemplate the numbers of those who could have registered to vote against this reflective measure that was formed and mired out of fear propaganda to begin with.
It may be true that Brexit is a decision based on ill-informed envy and hate, made against immigrants and against those UK citizens who have succeeded in difficult times. However, it came from the needs and fears of the poor being ignored and the poor being willing to hurt themselves in order to get at the "elite" that did not care. It is not unlike supporting Trump, where the truth of the world economy is irrelevant and only the genuine neglect and decline of the (white) working class is the issue. The scariest part, in both the UK and USA is that it is largely a right wing revolt. In the past such revolts are traditionally left wing. I believe that the question of what people do in a world of increasing automation and untouchable multinational corporations will need to be addressed. Otherwise the poor (who are always the majority) will turn against immigration and against trade everywhere over the next 20 years. Right now, that turn looks like it will most often resemble fascism.
7
I do hope that the lessons of Brexit are not lost on Americas young and they turn out in full force in November to ensure they protect their future against the
wishes of so many older people who only want to live in the past.
I am 75 years old and even I recognize it's futile in our connected world to live in the past , instead we must build for the future our infrastructure , renewable energy , protect our environment and celebrate our diversity.
Incidentally Trump is now on a self congratulatory tour of Scotland , praising Brexit and blaming President Obama for the leave vote .
I wonder if he realizes that his golf properties are in Scotland which firmly voted against Brexit and wants to leave Britain to stay in the EU, his egotistical , thoughtless comments will only serve to antagonize his host country
wishes of so many older people who only want to live in the past.
I am 75 years old and even I recognize it's futile in our connected world to live in the past , instead we must build for the future our infrastructure , renewable energy , protect our environment and celebrate our diversity.
Incidentally Trump is now on a self congratulatory tour of Scotland , praising Brexit and blaming President Obama for the leave vote .
I wonder if he realizes that his golf properties are in Scotland which firmly voted against Brexit and wants to leave Britain to stay in the EU, his egotistical , thoughtless comments will only serve to antagonize his host country
23
I can sympathize with the young people referenced in the article. I remember my utter dismay after Bush was re-elected in 2004, despite his disastrous and deceitful war. I felt thoroughly isolated from my country's majority.
I suppose the bright side for the Brits is that these backward-looking people will die off within a generation. In America we're stuck with ours, as they're spread across generations.
I suppose the bright side for the Brits is that these backward-looking people will die off within a generation. In America we're stuck with ours, as they're spread across generations.
7
As one young Briton said: "“serious fact-based journalism within the U.K. is not valued by the majority of the English population.” Exactly the case with the most watched news organization here, Fox News, which has been determined to promulgate over 80% lies. Gee, why is Trump so popular among the same demographic as those in England that voted to leave - the poorly educated and older voters (not me). Murdoch has much to answer for, and if this all does create WWIII, I hope he and his lying ilk are the first to go.
6
Look at all the comments from younger people here railing about "old people" voting for the Brexit, and then demeaning their age and thinking. Many even propose an age limit for voting. This is what comes of the 20-30 crowd who have grown up thinking that they are inclusive and tolerant of all points of view. In truth, they are narrow minded bigots who cry bloody murder when things don't go their way. There is always an excuse when their point of view is not wholeheartedly endorsed by others. This time it is the age of the majority who yes to leave the EU. That is called discrimination in my book.
21
The thing that the elites fear most is having to justify, on rational grounds, policies that favor massive, nation-changing immigration.
There is never any good economic argument that stands up; there is no good cultural or social argument that stands up. They can win the argument only by shouting down any doubts with smears of "racist" and "bigot" and "nativist".
This is why they are now losing their minds over Brexit: those smears just don't do the job anymore, and they have nothing left in the quiver.
There is never any good economic argument that stands up; there is no good cultural or social argument that stands up. They can win the argument only by shouting down any doubts with smears of "racist" and "bigot" and "nativist".
This is why they are now losing their minds over Brexit: those smears just don't do the job anymore, and they have nothing left in the quiver.
15
This is simple. For the most part, those that benefit economically want more integration, and those that don't want less. For those that want more integration, how do you help those that are trampled underfoot by globalization? Keep in mind that our current system did not develop naturally but was written by rules to benefit the people who wrote the rules, i.e. free trade agreements and the like.
8
The British seniors and working-class try to set back the clock by 70 years; while some American voters are supporting Barney Rubble for U.S. president.
The British who voted for Brexit will soon learn that those threatened consequences weren't merely elitist fantasies; they were real. Will American voters learn from the British mistake, or is it "back to the Stone Age with Barney"?
Hard times breed reactionary policies and nativist, reactionary candidates. The solution is to move forward, not backward. The British are about the learn that lesson, the hard way. As for us -- a Barney Rubble victory would be an even greater disaster for he U.S., than Brexit is about to be for the U.K.
The British who voted for Brexit will soon learn that those threatened consequences weren't merely elitist fantasies; they were real. Will American voters learn from the British mistake, or is it "back to the Stone Age with Barney"?
Hard times breed reactionary policies and nativist, reactionary candidates. The solution is to move forward, not backward. The British are about the learn that lesson, the hard way. As for us -- a Barney Rubble victory would be an even greater disaster for he U.S., than Brexit is about to be for the U.K.
6
The. UK newspapers that I have read indicate, based on exit polls, that only about 38-42% of eligible Millenials voted in the referendum.was Apparently, younger Remain supporters just didn't understand how close the referendum vote was. This was in spite of pre-vote opinion polls showing a virtual tie. Maybe the results would have been Remain if more Millenials had voted. Or maybe, Remain support was an urban phenomenon; the geographic breakdown also shows that. In any event, it's often easier to motivate voters to support change than the status quo.
4
Hopefully this will trigger much needed reforms by both Parties here that will advance the needs of the worker. In fact, with the current attitude of disgust with politics as usual it may be to late already, particularly if a Trump win upsets the apple cart here as Brixit did over there. And they said it couldn't happen.
2
We have reached the point where human biology will attempt to Trump (pun intended) 21st century reality. We humans are hard-wired to recognize and favor “our own kind” – that’s "the selfish gene" at work, doing natural selection's bidding. Unfortunately, this is simply dysfunctional in a world where technology has effectively erased the barriers of time and space and permits us to be in intimate contact with the rest of the world – where national borders, differences in language, culture and even race are being diluted and may eventually be erased by our ability to move seamlessly from place to place. The internet, the global economy, the mass migration of people all over the planet are all heading inexorably in that direction.
We can adapt, or we can be dragged kicking and screaming to this new party. Right now, there is a lot of kicking and screaming.
It is no surprise that the UK generation that grew up during the devastating death throes of nativism, nationalism and racism during the the 20th century cannot adjust to the notion that boundaries are melting away, that at the rate we are going, this will be not just one Europe, but one world, where the survival of the species will require us all to work together and share the planet's ever scarcer resources together, to come up with innovative solutions rather than waste time and energy playing zero sum, "winners and losers" games.
We can adapt, or we can all go down taking shots at one another. We shall see.
We can adapt, or we can be dragged kicking and screaming to this new party. Right now, there is a lot of kicking and screaming.
It is no surprise that the UK generation that grew up during the devastating death throes of nativism, nationalism and racism during the the 20th century cannot adjust to the notion that boundaries are melting away, that at the rate we are going, this will be not just one Europe, but one world, where the survival of the species will require us all to work together and share the planet's ever scarcer resources together, to come up with innovative solutions rather than waste time and energy playing zero sum, "winners and losers" games.
We can adapt, or we can all go down taking shots at one another. We shall see.
7
This vote should have takrn place within one year of Cameron's announcement, not almost 3 years afterwards. If that would have happened Britain would have voted to remain in the EU. A lot things happened in these three years in particular the Syrian War, and the refugees and Angela Merkel's stupidity in the way she handled it all, along with Cameron's coat tail riding response. So now they have to live with the vote unless of course a re-vote can take place and those idioits who were clueless about the issues and the EU can then vote again to stay in the EU.
4
Those young Brits who are pro-EU have grown up in a world where they never knew that UK had existed (and survived just fine) without EU. They were not even born, so they would not know the fight for Thatcher to keep the GBP (even when it had opted to join EC), and did not realize the wisdom of keeping sovereignty and independence of fiscal+monetary policy. Have they ever learnt from the debacles that are still unfolding in Greece? Are they so naive in thinking that there is only up-and-up by being part of EU?
Some folks will be hurting, but most folks will come out just fine. For all the fear of uncertainty, there'll be some basis points shaved from the GDP in the near term, but UK will come out stronger, with its heads held high. Not everything in this life is measured by a dollar sign. Would all those companies move HQ to the continent? I highly doubt it. They might hedge their bets, but there won't be mass exodus, and UK will remain Europe's gateway to the wider English-speaking world.
As to Scotland whose economy is so much weaker, made more so by the low oil price, they can elect to breakaway and join EU, much as Greece had elected to be led by the nose. Historic conflicts with the Brits aside, if they seriously think that there won't be a price to pay to join EU, they are delusional. Northern Ireland is even weaker than Scotland in its hands.
I've voted for Brexit, much had I opted for keeping GBP back then. For those who have second thoughts, I'd say, grow a spine.
Some folks will be hurting, but most folks will come out just fine. For all the fear of uncertainty, there'll be some basis points shaved from the GDP in the near term, but UK will come out stronger, with its heads held high. Not everything in this life is measured by a dollar sign. Would all those companies move HQ to the continent? I highly doubt it. They might hedge their bets, but there won't be mass exodus, and UK will remain Europe's gateway to the wider English-speaking world.
As to Scotland whose economy is so much weaker, made more so by the low oil price, they can elect to breakaway and join EU, much as Greece had elected to be led by the nose. Historic conflicts with the Brits aside, if they seriously think that there won't be a price to pay to join EU, they are delusional. Northern Ireland is even weaker than Scotland in its hands.
I've voted for Brexit, much had I opted for keeping GBP back then. For those who have second thoughts, I'd say, grow a spine.
9
I find the comments of American supporters of Brexit rather unconvincing since most appear to not only have a very poor grasp of the relevant facts, but they also don't seem to be aware that the UK and England are not the same thing (a sharp point of contention especially now.)
To address two frequently discussed misconceptions:
First,the immigration issue of Brexit was LEGAL immigration. EU countries allow other member citizens to work and live in member countries. You might delight in repeating thr phrase "illegal immigrant," but it's not the issue here.
Second, the UK is composed of more than England. This is a sharp point of contention now because Scotland and Northern Ireland heavily favored remaining in the EU. The English may complain about not wanting to be dragged along by Europe, but for many people in those other areas of the UK there has long been a sense of being dragged along by England against their wills. There is already talk of independence referendums (again) from those two parts of the UK.
To address two frequently discussed misconceptions:
First,the immigration issue of Brexit was LEGAL immigration. EU countries allow other member citizens to work and live in member countries. You might delight in repeating thr phrase "illegal immigrant," but it's not the issue here.
Second, the UK is composed of more than England. This is a sharp point of contention now because Scotland and Northern Ireland heavily favored remaining in the EU. The English may complain about not wanting to be dragged along by Europe, but for many people in those other areas of the UK there has long been a sense of being dragged along by England against their wills. There is already talk of independence referendums (again) from those two parts of the UK.
10
Scotland may contend with a lot of youthful English refugees crossing the border from England should they decide to leave the UK.
The generational divide is not surprising - given the reckless disregard the older generation has shown to current and future generations, economically and environmentally.
The generational divide is not surprising - given the reckless disregard the older generation has shown to current and future generations, economically and environmentally.
5
I understand the argument for the generational disconnect between the older and younger generation. As sad as I personally think it is for the UK, the older generation decided and won. I hope they can live with their smaller pensions and smaller retirement accounts in their older age as their consequences. Of course they will probably look toward the younger generation with their hands out to provide for their shortfalls. But this time, the younger generation won't be able to provide for them without more economic opportunities. Ah, UK it was nice knowing you.
4
"For those under 25, the desire to remain in the union was especially high: Three-quarters wanted Britain to stay in Europe."
"I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience...." -- Ronald Reagan
But what if we did exploit or at least explore the "youth and inexperience" of many Brexit supporters? Rather than assuming their superior, anointed status, let's recall that their brains have yet to mature.
Brain is not fully mature until 30s and 40s
http://phys.org/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.html
"... emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25." -- NPR, October 10, 2011
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708
BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194
"I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience...." -- Ronald Reagan
But what if we did exploit or at least explore the "youth and inexperience" of many Brexit supporters? Rather than assuming their superior, anointed status, let's recall that their brains have yet to mature.
Brain is not fully mature until 30s and 40s
http://phys.org/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.html
"... emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25." -- NPR, October 10, 2011
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708
BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194
2
My heart breaks for these young Brits, especially the one who says her parents are likely gloating over the outcome. Gloating that their daughter will face a much more uncertain future - what kind of parents are they?
I see parallels here in the US: the AARP strongly lobbying for older voters to grasp as many benefits as they can from the government, damn the consequences. Why should they worry that children are lacking in education and face a bleak future? To them, I say: Social Security only works when working people are putting funds into the system. When you need open heart surgery, you will want a qualified and expert surgeon to perform that procedure. And so on. You live in a connected society where others' well-being is connected to your well-being.
To the young: Please register and vote. It matters. Your future is at stake.
I see parallels here in the US: the AARP strongly lobbying for older voters to grasp as many benefits as they can from the government, damn the consequences. Why should they worry that children are lacking in education and face a bleak future? To them, I say: Social Security only works when working people are putting funds into the system. When you need open heart surgery, you will want a qualified and expert surgeon to perform that procedure. And so on. You live in a connected society where others' well-being is connected to your well-being.
To the young: Please register and vote. It matters. Your future is at stake.
5
As Americans, would we relinquish our sovereignty to an outside entity such as the EU? I'm surprised how many of you feel sympathy with these young Britons. These are young people who are still in university and haven't had real jobs/responsibilities. It's not surprising they voted to stay. Imagine if young Americans grew up under the EUs thumb. They wouldn't understand the difference between being a citizen or a 'subject'. They don't know anything else and want to play it safe. Many here are afraid for the future of Britain because they are leaving the EU. I am afraid for the future of Britain because its youth seems conditioned to servitude.
8
I think we Americans voted to surrender our "sovereignty" when we abandoned the Articles of Confederation in 1791 and fought a civil war to preserve unity in 1861-1865.
3
This's begs many questions about humans at this point in their evolution.
Is this "The Selfish Generation" - really a type of demographic - but, who will it include?
-Closet bigots? Outright bigots? Or just angry and scared people looking to blame having become enraged enough over time to do desperate things?
-Not just people born of a certain age? The behaviors are not exclusive to the over 55 crowd.
-Is this present most everywhere in the world in some form and a modern tribal trend, comprised of those whose instincts for survival resemble more ancient than modern?
-Is what we are observing just more proof of Darwinism?
This is scary serious and this wildfire may not be stoppable - voted in by people with not enough insight, not enough critical thinking skills, and definitely too little information to understand what they would set into motion.
Will voting people in the US learn that this trend can impact the value of their lives in a heartbeat?
Too little imagination and pre-digested rhetoric perpetuated by people with dangerous minds - more proof that John Nash's theories are true...
Is this "The Selfish Generation" - really a type of demographic - but, who will it include?
-Closet bigots? Outright bigots? Or just angry and scared people looking to blame having become enraged enough over time to do desperate things?
-Not just people born of a certain age? The behaviors are not exclusive to the over 55 crowd.
-Is this present most everywhere in the world in some form and a modern tribal trend, comprised of those whose instincts for survival resemble more ancient than modern?
-Is what we are observing just more proof of Darwinism?
This is scary serious and this wildfire may not be stoppable - voted in by people with not enough insight, not enough critical thinking skills, and definitely too little information to understand what they would set into motion.
Will voting people in the US learn that this trend can impact the value of their lives in a heartbeat?
Too little imagination and pre-digested rhetoric perpetuated by people with dangerous minds - more proof that John Nash's theories are true...
1
This vote was a "last chance saloon" to avoid becoming part of a federal United States of Europe. The 1975 vote was for a common European market and until Brexit the people have not had a vote on the EU. From the loose arrangement of 1975 the EU has slowly and insidiously moved towards being a federal entity (or some might argue a dictatorship) . We never signed up to be ruled by Europe, We signed up to co-operate.
The EU is the biggest ponzi scheme going as they publish their accounts. Where does the money go to? Jean Claude Juncker is threatening all kinds of retribution to the UK just because we want out. The EU, a political union? or a Mafia protection racket? Glad to have voted out.
The EU is the biggest ponzi scheme going as they publish their accounts. Where does the money go to? Jean Claude Juncker is threatening all kinds of retribution to the UK just because we want out. The EU, a political union? or a Mafia protection racket? Glad to have voted out.
6
Somehow these figures, while indicating a generational divide, do not seem that compelling. Fifty-seven percent of those 18-34 voted to remain, means that 43% of the same group wanted out. One would think the remain side would be far larger in that demographic group considering what was at stake. Their futures, particularly in their ability to study and work and set up businesses in the E.U have become much more difficult and in many cases impossible. Britain will now be shunned and isolated by the rest of the E.U. as well. Even from the most British city in Canada, Victoria, British Columbia, Britain suddenly seems less cool, less hip, less welcoming and more xenophobic, closed and racist. What a shame.
2
The ignorance and selfishness of the young people interviewed, is mind blowing? Can they really be that unaware? Can they not equate the economic downturn and employment issues, with the unfettered immigration? To accuse their parents of being smug and self-centered, is almost laughable. Perhaps they need to all go back to school and study history, instead of being concerned with restrictions on travel and study. I loved the description I read earlier of Britain as a vibrant, multicultural society...wonder who they talked to to get that one? Britain managed well before the EU and will manage without it again.
9
This is a fundamental problem with democracy. Do you vote your individual interest (so a collective will emerges as a mere numerical whole) or do you take the collective interest to heart? Sometimes -- here is a terrible but true thought -- one person one vote is anti-democratic. Why should't the will and interest of a 20yr old, who is so much more invested than an 80yr old, have more to say?
Of course, the answer is political education -- which we do not do (nor the Brits, thankfully the Europeans are a slight bit better). If we do not learn to think and act with others -- ie without empathy -- democracy is tyranny. I only hope Trump's rise does not continue to the point that he proves how true this is.
Of course, the answer is political education -- which we do not do (nor the Brits, thankfully the Europeans are a slight bit better). If we do not learn to think and act with others -- ie without empathy -- democracy is tyranny. I only hope Trump's rise does not continue to the point that he proves how true this is.
The older generation needs to support another vote on the referendum but this time add in not only leave but any person over the age of 25 has to leave the UK unless they are providing a service of some sort for older people. Also open immigration to people around the world over the age of 45. I think after 20 years of having to live abroad their perspectives will change.
1
I suspect the majority of the "Leave" voters are beneficiaries of the UK progressive benefit system. The "Remain" voters seem to have been in the larger, more prosperous urban centers. In other words, the beneficiaries have shot themselves in the foot...
In the US, our RED states generally receive more Federal funds than they pay in taxes. And they vote for candidates that spend their careers taking away their benefits. The US and the UK are not so different one from the other.
In the US, our RED states generally receive more Federal funds than they pay in taxes. And they vote for candidates that spend their careers taking away their benefits. The US and the UK are not so different one from the other.
5
The Leavers argue that the money no longer given to the EU will now be retained for health and education. But the issues with health and education are not financial – they are organisational and strategic. Money has been poured into the bottomless hole of the NHS for years . . . and creamed off as profits by the private companies who now manage it.
The referendum has shown to what extent my country is xenophobic and bigoted. Those who voted leave will live to regret their ignorance masquerading as patriotism
The referendum has shown to what extent my country is xenophobic and bigoted. Those who voted leave will live to regret their ignorance masquerading as patriotism
5
"Many young Britons expressed astonishment, anger or despair that their parents and grandparents would seek to limit the travel, exposure to other cultures....that being part of the European Union has afforded them."
Ummm, when traveling through Europe I have seen many of these young Britons traveling - the primary purpose of which seems to be to drink as much alcohol as possible and then to act as badly as they can. This is especially true in eastern Europe. Some hotels there will not allow group bookings of young Britons. So it makes me question how much of their concern for Brexit is how it will impact their partying. A bit selfish?
But at least they are thinking of how the election results will affect them - an analysis that seems to escape far too many American voters.
Ummm, when traveling through Europe I have seen many of these young Britons traveling - the primary purpose of which seems to be to drink as much alcohol as possible and then to act as badly as they can. This is especially true in eastern Europe. Some hotels there will not allow group bookings of young Britons. So it makes me question how much of their concern for Brexit is how it will impact their partying. A bit selfish?
But at least they are thinking of how the election results will affect them - an analysis that seems to escape far too many American voters.
5
As always people vote in what they think is in their own interests. Naturally the global city of London voted to retain its European ties because it derives great benefits of those ties. For the rest of England though, the EU has not brought those benefits and has harmed the local economies. Why should they have voted to stay?
13
It is difficult to understand how EU has harmed local economies in England whereas it seems that local economies in Scotland have the feeling they benefited from the EU.
A complaint you hear often is that the EU has no common economic (+/- tax) policy so that I suspect that what harmed local economies in England is in the responsibility of the British governement, and the way local economies in Scotland have benefited (from EU membership?) may be due to the Scotish, regional, governement.
Otherwise: Globalization simply takes place, independent from the question whether you like it, or not, in England or Scotland.
Btw: I've the feeling that Greeks could claim with good arguments that "the EU" (or ECB, Merkel, or the Troika - chose your preferred scapegoat by yourself) has harmed the economy of Creta. But the Greeks didn't conclude, up to now, to leave the EU, Eurozone, or Schengen.
A complaint you hear often is that the EU has no common economic (+/- tax) policy so that I suspect that what harmed local economies in England is in the responsibility of the British governement, and the way local economies in Scotland have benefited (from EU membership?) may be due to the Scotish, regional, governement.
Otherwise: Globalization simply takes place, independent from the question whether you like it, or not, in England or Scotland.
Btw: I've the feeling that Greeks could claim with good arguments that "the EU" (or ECB, Merkel, or the Troika - chose your preferred scapegoat by yourself) has harmed the economy of Creta. But the Greeks didn't conclude, up to now, to leave the EU, Eurozone, or Schengen.
1
I think this is a positive for the British people as they still have their womderful country (I am a huge fan of England). Other countries are now rethinking their stay in the EU and this vote by the British to leave was the push that they needed. These counties unfortunately are not really for their countrymen but seem to be devoting their time and assets to immigrants who refuse to assimilate. This is unjust and the rancor this has caused the natural-born citizens is the reason there has been such an anti-immigrant sentiment. Can you blame their resentment? These countries must be given back to their citizens who have been overlooked by the government for too long. This is only the equitable thing to do and it is what the people want.
4
Something akin to Brexit is what we'll get if Trump is (god forbid) elected. Worse, only a tiny fraction of American voters will show up at the polls to cause that result. At least in the UK an off-the-charts 72% of registered voters made their views known.
While nativism and xenophobia were partly to blame for the Brexit result, economic factors played a key role as well (as they usually do). "Leave" voters tend to live in rural areas where wages have stagnated.
One thing we can be grateful for, at least, is that Germany's economy is doing well. We know what happens when the German economy is doing poorly (that's what gave rise to Hitler). Without the UK in the EU to counterbalance Germany, we better hope the German economy keeps humming along.
While nativism and xenophobia were partly to blame for the Brexit result, economic factors played a key role as well (as they usually do). "Leave" voters tend to live in rural areas where wages have stagnated.
One thing we can be grateful for, at least, is that Germany's economy is doing well. We know what happens when the German economy is doing poorly (that's what gave rise to Hitler). Without the UK in the EU to counterbalance Germany, we better hope the German economy keeps humming along.
2
From what I'm reading elsewhere, the young may have felt passionate about remaining in the EU, but it appears they may not have bothered to appear at the polls and actually vote, at least in numbers proportionate to their population. If that turns out to be the case, and the country could have remained in the EU if more of them had participated, then they had all better put their socks in their cake holes and stop grousing about their evil parents and grandparents and blame their own apathy for the result.
On a totally different topic, I hope it's not lost on anyone that all of these votes were taken on paper ballots, and there was a finalized count in less than 24 hours. That's a model we can and should emulate. It's trackable and verifiable, something our electronic voting often is not.
On a totally different topic, I hope it's not lost on anyone that all of these votes were taken on paper ballots, and there was a finalized count in less than 24 hours. That's a model we can and should emulate. It's trackable and verifiable, something our electronic voting often is not.
7
It will never happen in America, it is far too simple and efficient and unlike voting machines that operate inconsistently and are easily hacked, it is considerably more difficult to rig an election with a bunch of people counting paper ballots.
3
The problem for British youth today is that they are not the generation that feels, with much justification, that it has been cruelly conned. Back in the day, joining a free trade area seemed like a good option. But was has developed since then is the ever-encroaching limitation of sovereignty that was never part of the deal. That the young fail to know and understand that is a measure of their poor education and total lack of sensitivity. Britain can and will do just fine outside the European gulag, but whichever way it goes it is right and proper that the country should make its own decisions through its elected representatives in parliament without having to seek approval from an unelected, undemocratic, foreign power. For those of us who value sovereignty, June 23, 2016 is our July 4, 1776. Every American should understand that even if British youth don't get it.
10
Actually, what British youth "gets" is that nationalism, nativism and racism should be yesterday's news in the 21st century, where instant communication, travel and global trade have made national, cultural and linguistic borders increasingly irrelevant. You cannot turn back the clock; you cannot go back to the days when the population of the world was one-half what is was now; when resources were plentiful; and when a few Western countries could, with little resistance, exploit the rest of the planet to their hearts' content.
The glorious British Empire is long, long gone, and those under 30 or so do not need to get a text message to know it. We cannot go back to the world of "us and them" and survive as a species. Wave the flag, sing the national anthem, get your God Save the Queen ya ya's out all you want, but that is the reality of life in the 21st century, and Britain's young people, who are now of many colors and look to the future, not the past, know it well.
There is no "European gulag," as you call it -- this is the world you live in, like it or not.
"Stop the world, I want to get off" is not a viable economic or political strategy. But that's the road the UK has just taken.
The glorious British Empire is long, long gone, and those under 30 or so do not need to get a text message to know it. We cannot go back to the world of "us and them" and survive as a species. Wave the flag, sing the national anthem, get your God Save the Queen ya ya's out all you want, but that is the reality of life in the 21st century, and Britain's young people, who are now of many colors and look to the future, not the past, know it well.
There is no "European gulag," as you call it -- this is the world you live in, like it or not.
"Stop the world, I want to get off" is not a viable economic or political strategy. But that's the road the UK has just taken.
2
Oh, good - now lets turn the young against the old. First we had weeks of speeches, articles, editorials not on the advantages of Brexit but how bad it would be for individuals if they voted against it - punishment not reward. For years, both the Conservatives like Cameron and Laborites of the third way like Blair had been cutting back on benefits and social services and vilifying the lazy takers. Then they bring in cheaper labor and dump them in working class neighborhoods without any help for both the native and immigrant populations. Mr. Blair and Mr. Cameron and their friends don't live in those neighborhoods or need the social services. Their children are little exposed to the immigrants and certainly don't have to share space or resources with them. What did they expect?
I am reminded of Flip Wilson's Church of What's Happening Now where he explains that if the church is to go from crawl to walk he will need money from the congregation. The congregation responds "let it crawl, rev." It seems to me that's the message the Brits gave last week. And, I wouldn't count the short fingered one out yet.
I am reminded of Flip Wilson's Church of What's Happening Now where he explains that if the church is to go from crawl to walk he will need money from the congregation. The congregation responds "let it crawl, rev." It seems to me that's the message the Brits gave last week. And, I wouldn't count the short fingered one out yet.
5
The younger generation has been living off the older generation for decades and now they know what's best for the UK? The older generation has put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into raising families and maintaining homes, communities and towns. The younger generation has not put in half of that effort yet.
More importantly the UK will thrive and do very well. The idea that the EU is the center of the economic world is fading rapidly. There are plenty of countries willing to do business with the UK. It remains to be seen if France and Germany can continue to subsidize the southern part of the EU and absorb problems from Africa and the ME.
More importantly the UK will thrive and do very well. The idea that the EU is the center of the economic world is fading rapidly. There are plenty of countries willing to do business with the UK. It remains to be seen if France and Germany can continue to subsidize the southern part of the EU and absorb problems from Africa and the ME.
9
This reminds me a bit of the anti-abortion lobby in the US. Those who would deny abortion rights are the older, male, or married who want kids. It is rather smug of them to deny such rights when they no longer have the potential need for them.
The older generation is the one that voted to exit Europe as the generation that is more likely to be retired, immobile, rural, or less likely to take advantage of the benefits of the EU. Unfortunately, they may have dimmed the hopes of their children. It will be interesting to see if there is a flight of human capital in the aftermath.
The older generation is the one that voted to exit Europe as the generation that is more likely to be retired, immobile, rural, or less likely to take advantage of the benefits of the EU. Unfortunately, they may have dimmed the hopes of their children. It will be interesting to see if there is a flight of human capital in the aftermath.
4
Sorry, but many of those that voted to leave were not rich elderly people with big pensions. Like the aftermath of the 2008 financial meltdown, many in the English countryside and smaller communities, because of establishment/corporate elitist policies saw their factories close down and their jobs disappear in the process. Much like America, as the middle class disappears the Brits have figured out this globalization deal has been OK for those at the top of the economic food chain but, not necessarily worked out for them either.
5
Shifts in the political direction of Europe and the USA are now ascribed to demographics. The time-tested motto : Divide and conquer .
Brexit = angry old men or as some pundits have even declared: People of low education voted for Brexit. The Bernie Sanders phenomena in the USA : Media constantly suggested only young people support him...by inference people who have not lived long enough to know better.
The fabricators of such facile constructs will no doubt find favour with their masters. Thus very complex issues are reduced to readily digestible answers for those who consider themselves super educated and are neither young nor angry old men.
Brexit = angry old men or as some pundits have even declared: People of low education voted for Brexit. The Bernie Sanders phenomena in the USA : Media constantly suggested only young people support him...by inference people who have not lived long enough to know better.
The fabricators of such facile constructs will no doubt find favour with their masters. Thus very complex issues are reduced to readily digestible answers for those who consider themselves super educated and are neither young nor angry old men.
3
The labels are from a well-heeled establishment perspective of those who wish to ignore what is actually happening within the country. If Brexit does nothing, it will, at least, confirm that people have had enough with the status quo in which the establishment ignores at their peril.
4
While reading about the young/old divide i remember an English couple in their late '60s having breakfast at the table next to me (with a trashy English paper) when holidaying in Portugal in January this year. An English guy, early 40s who worked in the hotel (yes, also English people work outside their own country) talked to them and started complaining: salary not so high but I have to pay too much taxes and the woman would say: yes, that's the EU. The guy says the bus fare is so high (public transport is cheap in Portugal) and she would say: yes, that's the EU! And he says, my rent is xx and she would say: yes, that's the EU! The exchange rate is xx and again yes, that's the EU.
So, there they were sitting, having switched rainy England for sunny Portugal and made the EU responsible for everything that belongs to a normal life!
So, there they were sitting, having switched rainy England for sunny Portugal and made the EU responsible for everything that belongs to a normal life!
7
The party of ignorance and resentment have won and the young people of England will begin to feel the mettle of this leave decision. Little England should be renamed Downton Abbey, an island state of toffs and servants. Its education system must be a failure because intellectually, ethically and constitutionally it has shown itself as a backward thinking state. Inequality in the country will increase because of this decision and the break up of it will come. Enjoy your moment of undignified vanity.
6
Unfortunately, like much of Middle America during the 2008 meltdown and the loss of millions of jobs that ensued, similarly I am sure the poor sap in the Midlands of England who watched his factory close down and jobs disappear felt he had nothing to lose by voting for change in a system that was not working for them. Younger people are worried about the future, however, the above individuals future has already been destroyed.
5
The more I read the more it seems that this was not about the EU but about the Government's inability to address the concerns of its citizens. The EU was just a convenient target. Sound familiar
I think it's a terrible shame to leave the EU, with some real work, clear headed and pro-active thought and improvements it could be & do what it was supposed to be and do. Unfortunately, it does seem to have been hijacked by money interests, to the detriment of many, in its present state. But that could be rectified if there was a will. Maybe now there will be.
I think it's a terrible shame to leave the EU, with some real work, clear headed and pro-active thought and improvements it could be & do what it was supposed to be and do. Unfortunately, it does seem to have been hijacked by money interests, to the detriment of many, in its present state. But that could be rectified if there was a will. Maybe now there will be.
11
Now that the EU knows Britain is serious, perhaps before the eager divorce lawyers start their billing clocks, the EU and Britain could start addressing the issues that caused the divorce filing, such as unlimited migration to wealthy EU countries, and such as ignoring the input and requests of non-financial working people (the 99%). Such a discussion might head off Frexit and Otherexits. Britain certainly does not want to end up a rump state with Scotland, Wales and Ireland bailing out. Both parties have a lot to gain by talking.
5
The generational gap in political views is very real. People in their 60's and older remember living in a time when societal values really mattered. Some of the current divide is due to the rapid pace of technology, another reason for the general angst is an erosion of personal accountably in all age groups. Shared sacrifice and belief in the common good are just no longer relevant. That's not an indictment, just an observation of human behavior amplified by technology. Elections matter, votes count and old people consistently vote.
6
Brits by nature are very proud of their identity and individuality. It is no wonder that the older generation wanted to retain that and voted to punch out of the Union.
The present generation were born when Britain was part of it. Therefore, they could relate themselves to the Union as a whole, and are well aware of the benefits of a united Europe. It will take many more years for them to come to terms and accept the reality. A united Europe was, without an iota of doubt, strong economically and structurally. Britain could have addressed the shortcomings and ironed out the difference with the Union and stayed back.
Let us hope that there is another referendum in the near future and Britain joins again.
The present generation were born when Britain was part of it. Therefore, they could relate themselves to the Union as a whole, and are well aware of the benefits of a united Europe. It will take many more years for them to come to terms and accept the reality. A united Europe was, without an iota of doubt, strong economically and structurally. Britain could have addressed the shortcomings and ironed out the difference with the Union and stayed back.
Let us hope that there is another referendum in the near future and Britain joins again.
1
Ignorance and a lack of understanding of future consequences is what has given rise to fear and despair among young Britons and most Britons and by now all the people in the world who are going to be affected in one way or the other by Brexit. The press and media has taken over the role of the spin and exaggeration and making wild speculations of doom and impending disaster and this is creating panic that will cause lasting damage. It is time for leadership from all the world leaders to say no big deal it is not approaching doomsday nor is a star, a planet or a meteorite going to strike the earth and splinter it into pieces and wipe out our civilization. No one unexpected the outcome and no one thought of the aftermath. Just like when Bush spearheaded the invasion of Iraq in the early 2000s or Hillary Clinton orchestrated the demise of Gaddhafi early in this decade without any strategy to deal with the aftermath of accomplishing their respective goals.Let us just wait and see what happens and whether everyone recovers from the surprise and shock. A united EU with Britain within it was ideal for young Britons and young Europeans because it was a means to be able to be free to work anywhere in Europe and move to anywhere in Europe. Now that freedom as they knew it is in jeopardy and the will to tough it out is shaken. There is nothing more comforting to whoever is running scared at such a time as the words of Roosevelt "there is nothing to fear but fear itself".
3
The young generation in Britain has legitimate
concerns to be worried about their future.
The result of the referendum has left their country
in a state of uncertainty. Economically the UK is already
been downgraded, politically David cameron is now a
downsized PM.
We woke up yesterday to a new dawn,
sadly not a promising one. The society's fractures are
multiple. A generation divide as well as a geographical
one is threatening the pillars of the 1707 acts of Union
who established the UK. London and Scotland claim to
independence is gaining credence. The nationalist fervour
among the older generation has endanger the core of a
nation. Anger and frustration are never good counsels
when the future of your country and its next generation
is at stake.
"We are made wise not by the recollection of our past,
but by the responsibility for our future"
G.B Shaw
concerns to be worried about their future.
The result of the referendum has left their country
in a state of uncertainty. Economically the UK is already
been downgraded, politically David cameron is now a
downsized PM.
We woke up yesterday to a new dawn,
sadly not a promising one. The society's fractures are
multiple. A generation divide as well as a geographical
one is threatening the pillars of the 1707 acts of Union
who established the UK. London and Scotland claim to
independence is gaining credence. The nationalist fervour
among the older generation has endanger the core of a
nation. Anger and frustration are never good counsels
when the future of your country and its next generation
is at stake.
"We are made wise not by the recollection of our past,
but by the responsibility for our future"
G.B Shaw
2
The lack of Brexit support among educated young voters in the UK reflects their desire to travel and work freely throughout Europe. If Bernie's young supporters had such options readily available to them they, too, would probably favor EU membership (since most people vote out of self-interest, unfortunately.) Both Brexit and Bernie's movements are reactions to globalization and are, more or less, the same phenomenon. If more independents and republicans were allowed to participate in the democratic primaries (i.e. if they were a truer reflection of popular support, like a referendum), we would see that Bernie's support far exceeds Hillary's and it includes most of the low-wage working class, as does the Brexit support.
(This is reposted.)
(This is reposted.)
1
As a Yank with an expat daughter living and working as a teacher in Northampton I have no effective voice in the matter, but for what it's worth I see nothing economically positive for her and a lot of potential personal damage (including the specter of possibly being forced back to the US when her Visa expires - her salary does not begin to meet the 35,000 Pound income threshold set by the Home Secretary). As far as our side of the Pond, the xenophobic nationalism exhibited by the even marginally victorious anti-elite Leave UK electorate may give energy to our own pro-Trumpers. It will be interesting, and scary, to watch the electoral opinion polls in the next weeks.
5
For the "leave's", Brexit was a Hobson's Choice, a very binary choice. However the World and human relations are very nuanced. This is what makes Brexit so dysfunctional, a black or white decision ... cognitive dissonance. Emotions (There'll Always Be an England") helped carry the day. Englanders need time for the selfish (leader self interest) political rhetoric to die off and time for reflection. Importation of cheap labor helps Big Business, but helping Business has not helped Englanders. If GDP strength from EU membership does not serve citizens, unfairness is seen and felt. Consequences and solutions are nuanced.
2
"57 percent of Britons between the ages of 18 and 34 who intended to take part in Thursday’s referendum supported remaining in the bloc, while an identical proportion — 57 percent — of Britons over 55 supported the opposite: leaving Europe behind."
1. So 43% of 18 to 34 year olds voted to leave. Who are these voters (education, ethnicity, place of residence, occupation)? You can't just sweep them under the rug.
2. 75% of voters under 25 voted to remain. This means that voters between the ages of 25 and 35 were split. Who were the 25% of voters under 25 who voted to leave? And who were the approximately 50% of voters between 25 and 34 who voted to leave?
Sweeping generalizations such as characterize this article are undermined by the very facts adduced to support such generalizations. I'm not talking about some kind of arcane nuance here. Just plain old facts and concepts.
1. So 43% of 18 to 34 year olds voted to leave. Who are these voters (education, ethnicity, place of residence, occupation)? You can't just sweep them under the rug.
2. 75% of voters under 25 voted to remain. This means that voters between the ages of 25 and 35 were split. Who were the 25% of voters under 25 who voted to leave? And who were the approximately 50% of voters between 25 and 34 who voted to leave?
Sweeping generalizations such as characterize this article are undermined by the very facts adduced to support such generalizations. I'm not talking about some kind of arcane nuance here. Just plain old facts and concepts.
5
This is a sad event. Make no mistake - this was race-based - "us against them" mentality that resonated largely with people who felt that they were entitled to the "social benefits," and feared that "there won't be anything left for us," if the migration into Briton were not halted. The reality is that this move will not halt the influx of refugees - probably not even slow the process.
As with most losing political efforts, the "stay" campaign was poorly handled. Little information was released regarding the many benefits. Huge numbers of Britons are living very comfortably in Spain, France, and elsewhere in Europe largely due to the existence of the EU. British Universities received large sums of funding for medical research - plus corporations are now going to look to avoid "British or European" entanglements until the tons of regulations are sorted out. This is a mess that the citizens of Britain will look back on with a lot of regret.
As with most losing political efforts, the "stay" campaign was poorly handled. Little information was released regarding the many benefits. Huge numbers of Britons are living very comfortably in Spain, France, and elsewhere in Europe largely due to the existence of the EU. British Universities received large sums of funding for medical research - plus corporations are now going to look to avoid "British or European" entanglements until the tons of regulations are sorted out. This is a mess that the citizens of Britain will look back on with a lot of regret.
4
Race based? If you read the British tabloids there is actually an equal amount of, maybe even more, resentment of the Poles and other Eastern European immigrants as there is of those from Third World countries.
2
I would be interested to know where Bernie Sanders stands on Brexit, where his supporters stand, and if there is a generational divide among his supporters.
I consider myself very liberal overall, but I have significant concerns about the future of the progressive movement in the United States based on the rhetoric of Bernie and his supporters. Further, I see overlap between that rhetoric and the Brexit vote. This strong and unwavering belief that international trade must be bad strikes me as wrong-headed, short-sighted, and potentially very dangerous.
Globalization isn't an option, it is inevitable, and if done right it can help us solve the major problems we face as humans on this planet: environment calamity, global poverty, human rights, mass migrations, etc. Importantly, it isn't 'us vs. them;' globalization has the potential to help us all win. And the opposite, 'globalizataion is bad' is a lose, lose, lose proposition. Isolationism in Britain will cause job losses there and would in the US too.
If Bernie's 'revolution' shuts itself off from actual facts it risks worsening the problems it aims to solve. The world is a complicated place, it is dangerous to over-simplify. I believe that it IS time for a new progressive movement in the US, but that movement is going to have to be open to opinions, information, news sources, etc that bring in broad perspectives.
I consider myself very liberal overall, but I have significant concerns about the future of the progressive movement in the United States based on the rhetoric of Bernie and his supporters. Further, I see overlap between that rhetoric and the Brexit vote. This strong and unwavering belief that international trade must be bad strikes me as wrong-headed, short-sighted, and potentially very dangerous.
Globalization isn't an option, it is inevitable, and if done right it can help us solve the major problems we face as humans on this planet: environment calamity, global poverty, human rights, mass migrations, etc. Importantly, it isn't 'us vs. them;' globalization has the potential to help us all win. And the opposite, 'globalizataion is bad' is a lose, lose, lose proposition. Isolationism in Britain will cause job losses there and would in the US too.
If Bernie's 'revolution' shuts itself off from actual facts it risks worsening the problems it aims to solve. The world is a complicated place, it is dangerous to over-simplify. I believe that it IS time for a new progressive movement in the US, but that movement is going to have to be open to opinions, information, news sources, etc that bring in broad perspectives.
1
Article focuses on the plight of university students and their inability to get scholarhips abroad because of the resutls of the vote. But I do not see any mention of the 630,000 immigrants who were allowed into the country last year, and who will cost the taxpayer billions of pounds for years to come since statistically, those from third world nations r atteracted to its lifetime welfare payments. Nor does the author interview working class folk who have been made superfluous by the immigrant flow into the country, which not only puts the UK further in debt, but increases pressure on the national health system which is already stressed due to the immigrant invasion.Most serious threat to GB's security as a result of its membeship in the EU was the open borders policy adopted by Bruxelles, which may have accounted for France's having fallen behind the terrorism curve. GB has suffered its share of terrorist slayings. Why push the envelope by allowing so many more cursorily vetted newcomers into Old Blighty, some of whom may be quislings?Put the safety of the citizenry first. GB has lost little by leaving, but has regained its self respect.
10
Liberals often grew up to be conservatives and usually not the other way around. Why? When people are young, they don't have responsibilities and parents often impress their hope and dream onto the child. Parents encourage the child to dream big and aim high. Liberals' lofting ideal fits with a child's dream of world peace, everyone is #1, money grows on trees. Once a child is out of college and onto the real world, he/she takes on adult responsibilities including making money and paying for things. Reality quickly set the new adult straight on how the world actually works and he/she begin to see how naive he/she was and votes for stability, hard work, and rationalism.
That's not to say there is no haven for old liberals. University, union, politics are all old liberal haven because the money always comes from someone else and no real products are produced.
That's not to say there is no haven for old liberals. University, union, politics are all old liberal haven because the money always comes from someone else and no real products are produced.
10
Educated white collar professionals of all stripes lean liberal versus the overall demographic in the United States. These are people who make a better living than most. Economically vibrant and productive areas like Seattle or San Francisco Bay Area or also heavily liberal. It's the poorest parts of the US that are heavily conservative, like rural South, tornado belt, or certain parts of the rust belt. Even in Texas wealthier cities are more liberal than the poorer panhandle. Your self-congratulatory narrative has little evidence to support it.
I do not know the figures for the UK but I suspect you will see similar patterns across much of the Western world.
I do not know the figures for the UK but I suspect you will see similar patterns across much of the Western world.
1
Spot on. How many of the young people voting for stay in are fully responsible for paying their own bills (housing/food/education) without help from parents or govt? Not many.
3
I think this vote reflects a fear of immigrants and that is truly tragic. My husband was an immigrant, from the UK. He came to the United States to seek greater opportunity. He was working class and felt limited by his accent if he were to remain in England. He had a remarkable career and found his American Dream. He worked, paid taxes, and invested in the economy. That is all most immigrants want to do. They just want the opportunities so many of us take for granted. Unfortunately, they are being blamed, wrongly, for many of our current ills. While it is true that unscrupulous firms, of which there are many, hire non-citizens to bring down labor costs. Those brought in to work become indentured servants, unable to leave the company without also leaving the country. The immigrants are not to blame - corporations and corporate greed are the culprits. The hatred is also the result of income inequality, with a few doing very well and the rest simply trying to keep their head above water. Nothing will change until we realize that capitalism, as effective as it is, cannot survive unless it is tempered with compassion. And compassion cannot be left up to companies. That is where strong government has a role to play.
4
Of course my heart goes out to the young and working class of Great Britain, truly. If however, the consequences of this fiasco were not so obviously tragic, it would almost seem to have a humorous overcast to me. I am in doubt that even Britain's great writer and social satirist, Charles Dickens, could effectively catch the multiple layers of irony and hubris at work in Britain's decision to: First, walk out on a economic pact that has for over 40 years brought this small island country great prosperity, and even placed it at the head of world affairs that emanate from the European Continent; and then after the deed is done, to suddenly realize what a tragic mistake it was to let their darker nativist impulses overwhelm their good sense, and appreciation of what it takes to run a modern nation for the benefit of the future generations. Certainly it would take the talents of the worlds greatest writer of historic dark comedies, William Shakespeare, to fully catch the multiple nuance, exquisite bad timing and the multiple flawed characters involved in this evolving tragedy.
4
One wonders what in the last couple of years has precipitated these shocks on both sides of the Atlantic driven by what has been largely a quieter generation. We need to acknowledge that 'quieter' means ignored, to the point that the talking heads have been surprised by outcomes of Trump, Sanders and Brexit. Instead of trying to see where they got it wrong the pundits are busy reinforcing the media labels of racists, out of touch, angry whites, etc., and drawing as many supporters as possible into a generational cat fight in order to prop up a system that primarily exists to enrichen an increasingly smaller portion of the world. The richest 62 people in the world have as much wealth as the bottom 50% of the global population, the wealth of the poorest 50% in the world dropped by about 40% between 2010 and 2015 while the wealth of richest 62 increased by $500 billion.
Sounds like some socialist from decades ago, but these figures can't continue to be ignored. The people voting for Brexit, supporting Trump and Sanders are perhaps the canaries in the mine, warning us that the economic force of globalization has created fissures in our communities, nations, and regions of the world, fissures that are swallowing a tipping point of people. Perhaps the warning is that globalization in the current form has become so decadent that it has run its course, and until a different set of values than profit making can be applied we will see increasing disunity.
Sounds like some socialist from decades ago, but these figures can't continue to be ignored. The people voting for Brexit, supporting Trump and Sanders are perhaps the canaries in the mine, warning us that the economic force of globalization has created fissures in our communities, nations, and regions of the world, fissures that are swallowing a tipping point of people. Perhaps the warning is that globalization in the current form has become so decadent that it has run its course, and until a different set of values than profit making can be applied we will see increasing disunity.
9
There's a lot of risk due to the 'Brexit'. It seemed like a ridiculous concept until it was voted to leave the EU. Online and in other articles there are a number of Britons who have voted to leave that now regret it and wish they could go back and vote to remain. I think this is a warning for all countries of all political parties. What could be a bold statement or what seems good in the short run might not always be the best. We need to think of the long run. The truth is, shouting and being angry and offensive are easy to support in the election, because a lot of citizens have been feeling that way, but we can't let that be what runs countries. Hate and bitterness impacts everyone in politics, and while hate could easily destroy other countries, it can destroy us too.
5
There are several threads going on here. First, if the EU experiment is going so well, why then would there be great concern about other countries following Britain's lead?
Second, I have always been curious how far sovereign nations would go to belong to the EU. How many decisions affecting the citizens could be made by a joint body?
Third, what about the reliance of countries like Spain, Portugal, and Greece on the financial largesse of the EU Central bank. There are many countries that are on the brink of bankruptcy and will have to be carried by the rest.
Lastly, open borders means that if Germany invites a quarter of a million Muslim refugees in, they can then move about freely to the other countries. That's why borders have been closed and barriers built to keep out the flood.
GB made the right decision.
Second, I have always been curious how far sovereign nations would go to belong to the EU. How many decisions affecting the citizens could be made by a joint body?
Third, what about the reliance of countries like Spain, Portugal, and Greece on the financial largesse of the EU Central bank. There are many countries that are on the brink of bankruptcy and will have to be carried by the rest.
Lastly, open borders means that if Germany invites a quarter of a million Muslim refugees in, they can then move about freely to the other countries. That's why borders have been closed and barriers built to keep out the flood.
GB made the right decision.
11
Of course older people voted for "Leave": The Leave camp suggested that money now being sent by the UK to the EU could instead be spent on the British National Health Service (NHS). The NHS has suffered funding cuts and older people have been heavily affected, or are more aware that they'll soon be affected. Healthy young people (not yet beset by creaking knees, etc.) are less likely to see health funding as a major self-interest.
Self-interest also explains why Scotland & N. Ireland voted to remain in the EU: They receive very large amounts of EU investment program funds. England itself, with an overall stronger economy, receives very little. If you look at the websites of various EU countries you'll see hugely expensive EU investment programs (called "Structural Funds") in Scotland & Ireland (high-tech centers, job training, etc.) but nothing like that in England.
The EU budget is a redistributive mechanism: EU funds, to which the strongest economies are the major contributors (contribution amounts are calculated as a % of GDP) are mainly used to invest in improvements in the weaker economies. Thus countries like Croatia, Poland, etc., receive large EU investments funded largely by the strongest economies (UK, Germany, France). The idea is that the weaker countries will then develop strong economies. However, whether some of the cultural aspects of the poorer countries will actually enable that laudable goal to come to fruition is an open question.
Self-interest also explains why Scotland & N. Ireland voted to remain in the EU: They receive very large amounts of EU investment program funds. England itself, with an overall stronger economy, receives very little. If you look at the websites of various EU countries you'll see hugely expensive EU investment programs (called "Structural Funds") in Scotland & Ireland (high-tech centers, job training, etc.) but nothing like that in England.
The EU budget is a redistributive mechanism: EU funds, to which the strongest economies are the major contributors (contribution amounts are calculated as a % of GDP) are mainly used to invest in improvements in the weaker economies. Thus countries like Croatia, Poland, etc., receive large EU investments funded largely by the strongest economies (UK, Germany, France). The idea is that the weaker countries will then develop strong economies. However, whether some of the cultural aspects of the poorer countries will actually enable that laudable goal to come to fruition is an open question.
9
I hope young people in America will take this as a warning. Reported elsewhere, voting turn-out for young people was something like 25%, whereas overall turn-out was something like 76%. With less than 3% difference in the results, in conjunction with the strong preference among young Britons for "Remain," we can reasonably say if more young Britons bothered to vote the result may have been different.
Trump polls poorly among young people, and best among older, white people. A President's decisions, even within one term, can affect a nation for decades (think how much our foreign policy still involves dealing with the continuing fall-out of Iraq and Afghanistan invasions, or how long Supreme Court Justices serve.) As the example of Brexit teaches us, If young people don't want their futures decided for them, then they need to show up at the polls and decide their futures for themselves.
Trump polls poorly among young people, and best among older, white people. A President's decisions, even within one term, can affect a nation for decades (think how much our foreign policy still involves dealing with the continuing fall-out of Iraq and Afghanistan invasions, or how long Supreme Court Justices serve.) As the example of Brexit teaches us, If young people don't want their futures decided for them, then they need to show up at the polls and decide their futures for themselves.
21
Young people don't vote. They did in 2008 out of white guilt but that's about it. They like to complain but would rather smoke pot, play video games, and tweet than leave their parents house and actually vote.
3
the fact that a similarly stark generational divide does not appear in the constituencies of "anti establishment" candidates Trump and Sanders arises primarily in the freedom that the EU extended to young UK and european citizens to travel freely or work "abroad" in any country within the EU. that's an issue that does not affect the USA electorate in the same way: instead, the generational divide between Trump and Sanders has more to do with their sharp policy divide on issues such as educational debt, universal health care, gender equality and minority inclusion.
1
Britain, to me, has long been the level headed big brother of Western Europe. It has never become communist, fascist, Nazi, or succumbed to the aggression of those countries that did. Britain fought with the Allies against the Axis power in WWII through to the bitter end resulting in ultimate victory at a great price.
I do not fault Britain for shielding itself from the whims of its siblings. There is nothing to stop Britain and the EU from continuing to trade amiably. Perhaps those countries that have been bailed out by Britain, or caused many of the problems of WWII should respect Britain's long standing stability, resolve and wisdom.
If Europe wants a free trade zone, do not make it conditional on gaining sovereignty of any kind withing the borders of its member nations.
In our original U. S. Constitution's Federalism in the central government was to establish a single foreign policy, currency, regulate commerce crossing state boundaries, and provide a common defense so the states could coexist prosperously and peacefully. Domestic life within in each individual States boundaries was left almost entirely to the State Governments. Why can't a European Union simply do the same.
That way Britain, arguably the level headed sibling can remain that while, the other countries can follow their own values with regard to domestic life and immigration.
I do not fault Britain for shielding itself from the whims of its siblings. There is nothing to stop Britain and the EU from continuing to trade amiably. Perhaps those countries that have been bailed out by Britain, or caused many of the problems of WWII should respect Britain's long standing stability, resolve and wisdom.
If Europe wants a free trade zone, do not make it conditional on gaining sovereignty of any kind withing the borders of its member nations.
In our original U. S. Constitution's Federalism in the central government was to establish a single foreign policy, currency, regulate commerce crossing state boundaries, and provide a common defense so the states could coexist prosperously and peacefully. Domestic life within in each individual States boundaries was left almost entirely to the State Governments. Why can't a European Union simply do the same.
That way Britain, arguably the level headed sibling can remain that while, the other countries can follow their own values with regard to domestic life and immigration.
13
John, of course nothing can stop the UK to trade with Poland amiably even leaving the EU. But the UK has not to leave the Union to continue this trade.
By nation, in your terms, I'm a sibbling of parents living during WWII under the rule of an Axis power. As such a sibbling I respect Great Britain for her historical acchievements, and other properties. Btw, this is the reason I'm sad that "they" want to leave the Union. But, and sorry, I do not respect the "wisdom" of the Britons to leave the Union.
(Continental) Europe wants to be more than a trading zone (peace keeping by working together). The EU would not have received the Nobel price for the mere fact being a trading zone. But the EU is currently not entirely a Federal State in the sense of the USA. EU = European Union but not United States of Europe.
What you advise to Europeans is currently what populists want to hinder, i.e. "more Europe". They call it the Sovjet Union of Europe, meaning that it is just now more than enough Europe.
"Domestic life within in each individual States boundaries was left almost entirely to the State Governments."
This describes very well the current situation of the UK in the EU. UK has its own currency, is not a member of Schengen. Official language of the UK seems to be English, and I'm not aware of any attempts of Brussel to replace this by Russian or Arabic. More seriously spoken: Brussel does not regulate those (domestic) issues.
So what is the reason to leave the Union?
By nation, in your terms, I'm a sibbling of parents living during WWII under the rule of an Axis power. As such a sibbling I respect Great Britain for her historical acchievements, and other properties. Btw, this is the reason I'm sad that "they" want to leave the Union. But, and sorry, I do not respect the "wisdom" of the Britons to leave the Union.
(Continental) Europe wants to be more than a trading zone (peace keeping by working together). The EU would not have received the Nobel price for the mere fact being a trading zone. But the EU is currently not entirely a Federal State in the sense of the USA. EU = European Union but not United States of Europe.
What you advise to Europeans is currently what populists want to hinder, i.e. "more Europe". They call it the Sovjet Union of Europe, meaning that it is just now more than enough Europe.
"Domestic life within in each individual States boundaries was left almost entirely to the State Governments."
This describes very well the current situation of the UK in the EU. UK has its own currency, is not a member of Schengen. Official language of the UK seems to be English, and I'm not aware of any attempts of Brussel to replace this by Russian or Arabic. More seriously spoken: Brussel does not regulate those (domestic) issues.
So what is the reason to leave the Union?
This post betrays a serious ignorance of British history. You can't use a 70-year stretch of history to make this kind of bold essentialist claim about the British character. Britain has often been the site of fratercide, religious intolerance, civil war, uprisings, imperialist aggression, brutality, etc. Just because they've had a decent stretch of relative ideological, social and economic stability since the War doesn't mean they can't make terrible decisions or embrace bankrupt ideologies like ethno-nationalism or even fascism. Automatically assuming that there's a British character immune to foolish thinking is highly dangerous, and a kind of ethno-nationalism itself.
3
There has been a lot of attention paid to how this affects the youth of Britain. A lot claim their future prospects have been taken away. This again is my take. I was 18 when the UK joined the European Economic Community at the start of January 1973. There was no vote on this action at the time, only a retrospective referendum once we joined asking if we should join. As I recall, the question posed in that referendum was quite ambiguous too. I have lived as an adult throughout the entire duration of the UK’s membership of the EEC, which became the European Community (EC) in 1993 following the Maastricht Treaty (this was a main stepping stone on the road to political Union and expansion....the proles were not asked if they wanted or agreed to this). In 2009 EC was replaced by the EU (a formal political union) following the Lisbon Treaty. Again the underclasses were not for their opinion (except in Ireland, where it was initially rejected so a second referendum was held to achieve the “correct” answer). After 43 years in this club I can state, hand on heart that it has done nothing for me but has probably cost me a fair sum in taxes over the years....it was also affect the size of the pension I’ll receive as monies that should have been invested by the UK government in this has been siphoned off into paying for EU/EC/EEC membership. I’ll not miss it undemocratic politician's gravy train one jot!
10
Jim - Thank you for your well articulated position on the EU's impact on the UK. If there is someone in the UK with an opposing point of view (and comparably articulate), I for one would very much like to read it.
2
This is the most thoughtless debacles one could imagine. Allowing miss or uniformed voters the ability to cause such devastation is mind boggling. The young supporters to stay are right to be fearful. The nonsense that a leave vote would bring back past glory or avenge perceived EU slights held by older voters is bizarre. England seems to be heading for a rump state.
18
"For those under 25, the desire to remain in the union was especially high: Three-quarters wanted Britain to stay in Europe."
They are not the only one who are disappointed with the verdict. 59.9% of Londoners voted to remain with EU. Many of them are non white, Asian or African ancestry. I am sure they are also equally disappointed and getting worried about their future even though they have elected a Muslim mayor recently hoping for changes. May be London should separate from England and become the capital of Scotland where 62% of people voted to remain with EU. It looks like there is less xenophobia in Scotland.
They are not the only one who are disappointed with the verdict. 59.9% of Londoners voted to remain with EU. Many of them are non white, Asian or African ancestry. I am sure they are also equally disappointed and getting worried about their future even though they have elected a Muslim mayor recently hoping for changes. May be London should separate from England and become the capital of Scotland where 62% of people voted to remain with EU. It looks like there is less xenophobia in Scotland.
14
Us older folk remember Britain standing against the Luftwaffe and the Wehrmacht.
I reckon they can handle exiting the EU as well.
I reckon they can handle exiting the EU as well.
75
The difference is that everyone respected GB for standing against the Luftwaffe. Today, "Little England" is standing against anything that it can't dominate, and any people who look different. Which will earn it many things, respect not being among them.
106
These are the children of the heroes that stood against the Third Reich, and the first time they are standing up to something it is apparently reality they won't accept. They've grown up with the absolute best circumstances of any generation for centuries: easy access to money and education; well-paid jobs with minimal competition; free healthcare; early retirements; the list goes on. They reaped the benefits of their fathers' and mothers' hard work. Now that their world has proven unsustainable they'd rather cling to fantasy rather than grow up all the way and help future generations grapple with the problems they've let fester.
3
Well, and one of the reasons the EU was formed was to try to prevent another Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht. But mindless nationalism just feels so good, doesn't it.
I'm sure the British will muddle through, and descend back into the depths of mediocrity they achieved in the postwar years. I do feel sorry for young Brits who have been consigned to a less bright future because older folk like you don't like brown people.
Interestingly, it turns out that the lower the proportion of immigrants in a British region, the more anti-immigrant sentiment there is and the more they voted to leave.
This is not a noble decision to seize back their sovereignty, whatever that means. It's a bunch of poorly educated people who got stirred up by irresponsible tabloids.
I'm sure the British will muddle through, and descend back into the depths of mediocrity they achieved in the postwar years. I do feel sorry for young Brits who have been consigned to a less bright future because older folk like you don't like brown people.
Interestingly, it turns out that the lower the proportion of immigrants in a British region, the more anti-immigrant sentiment there is and the more they voted to leave.
This is not a noble decision to seize back their sovereignty, whatever that means. It's a bunch of poorly educated people who got stirred up by irresponsible tabloids.
My wife and I are in our very late 50's and we voted Leave FOR our two sons and our four grandchildren. Why? So they can have a future free of remote despots, free of seeing their hard-earned taxes squandered by people not representing their interests and to get our borders back to the mid-90's state where means/skill testing was the price of entry.
The young complainers don't get it -- there is NO do-over.
Many sat on their backsides for 6+ months and didn't register to vote, then at 23h15min decided to and crashed the system. Their whinging was so loud the government gave in and extended registration. Perhaps if they spent less time partying (I know, that was hard for me too at their age!) and more time reading, they would have better understood both outcomes.
The young complainers don't get it -- there is NO do-over.
Many sat on their backsides for 6+ months and didn't register to vote, then at 23h15min decided to and crashed the system. Their whinging was so loud the government gave in and extended registration. Perhaps if they spent less time partying (I know, that was hard for me too at their age!) and more time reading, they would have better understood both outcomes.
100
Just waiting the needs of Country filled with old fuddy-duddies. Your forefathers fought for a Great England. Not for a cowardly island that stands alone.
You can't blame the World War II generation they were strong is their offspring of groom weak and feeble.
No way the younger generation to take this sitting down I say fight fight fight. These people are pushovers.
You can't blame the World War II generation they were strong is their offspring of groom weak and feeble.
No way the younger generation to take this sitting down I say fight fight fight. These people are pushovers.
1
One thing that goes with age is cognitive ability. There is no possible reason to think that somehow voting for Little England will somehow help future generations. "Despots"? Seriously? There was a time when those in England knew what real despots were, but apparently the meaning of the word has been lost. And it is you, sir, who are taking borders not decades but - once the sensible Scots depart, and possibly Ireland at last unites - centuries.
2
Those of us over 50 don't waste our lives dying in conflicts. Young do. So why don't we respect the wishes of those who die for us so that we live in safety? We old flatulence (and I am pushin' 70) should stop thinking we know best. We don't. We have made ourselves and others suffer for our mistakes. Let young people do the same it is their lives and future. Young Britons voted overwhelmingly against Brexit.
1
Trump thinks Brexit is a good thing then I know it's a bad thing.
129
Making a decision based on your own judgement is better than following the opinion of politicians.
1
Donald trump may also favor stopping at red lights, but that doesn't mean that is a bad thing.
2
He thinks it's a good thing out of one side of his mouth and blames Obama for it out the other side of his mouth. Who ever heard of a presidential candidate panhandling for his resorts!
1
Last two World War and in fact the the only two World War started in Europe. Is this the beginning?
Well if you think I am way off the mark think this way, right wingers are anti-immigration, anti-Islam blames all of their woes on immigrant and Islam. All they need to do is spur up sentiments near the general elections so that they can come to power.
All you need is CIA provided (or derivative thereof) surface to air missile and down a US drone in Pakistan territory. President Trump goes to low intensity war with Pakistan. So Syria to Pakistan will be engulfed in these so called low intensity war until the lid blows open.
Well if you think I am way off the mark think this way, right wingers are anti-immigration, anti-Islam blames all of their woes on immigrant and Islam. All they need to do is spur up sentiments near the general elections so that they can come to power.
All you need is CIA provided (or derivative thereof) surface to air missile and down a US drone in Pakistan territory. President Trump goes to low intensity war with Pakistan. So Syria to Pakistan will be engulfed in these so called low intensity war until the lid blows open.
4
To simply grab an element of history location and tie to it immediately to the future is one of the most myopic arguments I have ever heard. So if the Reformartion and Enlightment started also in Europe, is this then a harbinger for the future of European religions or philosophy? I think not! The Great War (WW I) was a result of rising nationalistic militarism and WW II was the direct result of a poorly brokered peace from WW I.
1
To be fair, up to recently European countries have been the only ones with the technology and militaries to wage a world war.
Precisely my point, all you need is a volatile ingredient and it will go nuclear. Humans do learn from history weather they "understand" or not is a different matter.
Learn history not from its content but the result thereof.
Learn history not from its content but the result thereof.
I wondered why Trump urged Brits to vote for leaving the E.U. He clarified his reasons yesterday. He stated that the falling value of the pound would help his businesses. And Americans want this guy to be their president! Do they actually think he cares about anyone?
166
He did not say the falling Pound would help his business. And it is this type of untruth whether it is from the Remain camp or the Anti Trump camp, that raises red flags.
He said the falling Pound will help business, meaning UK business and while I believe in a strong Pound, in the short term it will encourage people to visit the UK, such as Americans and make our goods cheaper.
Already the Pound is recovering and if it had not been for the scaremongering and Project Fear, the Leave results would have been a landslide.
He said the falling Pound will help business, meaning UK business and while I believe in a strong Pound, in the short term it will encourage people to visit the UK, such as Americans and make our goods cheaper.
Already the Pound is recovering and if it had not been for the scaremongering and Project Fear, the Leave results would have been a landslide.
3
They don't think. Most of them can't.
1
Reminds me that young voted for Sanders the old for Clinton, but fortunately that's for 4 years only.
12
In Britain the young voted to maintain the status quo with the EU and the old voted for change. So what is your point?
34
To say older voters voted for change is misleading What the actually want is to change back to the GB of 70 or more years ago.
this is only for four years to as I understand it.
When it comes to decision that influences young lives for decades, old folks should have the decency to refrain from voting, and let the young decide.
It's the young, that have to live for a long time with the decision, not the old.
It's the young, that have to live for a long time with the decision, not the old.
36
The young will have time to change the decision. The old will enjoy the time they have left living as they wish.
1
I must strenuously disagree with you and others who would disenfranchise people based on age. This is no different then doing so for racial, ethnic or gender based reasons. The answer to undesirable outcomes is education & multigenerational involvement. The marginalization of older people here as well as in much of the developed world leaves them prey to extremist views and politicians like Trump here and various British versions of the type in the UK. I too find my generations & older people's views & political positions troubling but have found that respectful engagement can temper if not change those viewpoints. Disenfranchising people is never a good answer to political disagreements.
3
I disagree. Old people were around before the UK was ever part of the EU so they are better able to analyze the situation.
2
No one over 60 should have been allowed to vote on Brexit.
David Mamet was right -"Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance."
David Mamet was right -"Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance."
39
Those who are 60-70, who no doubt voted to leave the EU, did not experience WWII and the terrible aftermath of rebuilding the country with its factories destroyed and cities filled with bomb craters. Their parents and grandparents did and the worked to make sure their children had more than they did. So their children who are now the disgruntled elderly, like the same generation of Americans, they enjoyed the improved economy. Now that they are pensioners, they are the angry ones who want everything as it was in their youth.
No one over 60 should be allow to teach either. That should get rid of the excess communist problem in universities.
On a more serious note, have it strike you that maybe people over 60 have accumulated more experience and wisdom than people under 20?
On a more serious note, have it strike you that maybe people over 60 have accumulated more experience and wisdom than people under 20?
1
And what other civil rights, besides the vote, would you take away from people over 60? One step down a slippery slope, the natural end of which is euthanasia on one's 60th birthday?
One might argue, alternatively, that people under 30 should not be allowed to vote because their brains are not yet fully developed, and anyway they're too busy taking selfies to register to vote.
One might argue, alternatively, that people under 30 should not be allowed to vote because their brains are not yet fully developed, and anyway they're too busy taking selfies to register to vote.
1
Though I sympathize, and agree, with young people's wish to remain in the EU, it seems that a very small percentage actually voted. I heard it was between 25 & 34%.
19
Since the global recession in 2008 Britain and other parts of Europe especially Greece chose the unproven 'austerity' for their countries, where our country chose stimulus.
Our 'rust belt' may not have felt the effects of the stimulus, but those jobs in the steel industry have been gone for over 30 years and they are not coming back. Mental note to all those waiting, move!
Although our President fought for stimulus, the gNOp did everything they could to stop anything good from happening, but Americans took their economy back. There are so many available jobs where I live it's almost like the late 90's.
Europe did not have Obama to fight for them. They had Cameron and the other cons that do not care if 'the people' starve to death, compounded with the refugees traveling though Europe. Perfect time for those white supremacists to rear their ugly heads and blame others.
Trump = Farage + Johnson, don't do it America, you'll be sorry.
Our 'rust belt' may not have felt the effects of the stimulus, but those jobs in the steel industry have been gone for over 30 years and they are not coming back. Mental note to all those waiting, move!
Although our President fought for stimulus, the gNOp did everything they could to stop anything good from happening, but Americans took their economy back. There are so many available jobs where I live it's almost like the late 90's.
Europe did not have Obama to fight for them. They had Cameron and the other cons that do not care if 'the people' starve to death, compounded with the refugees traveling though Europe. Perfect time for those white supremacists to rear their ugly heads and blame others.
Trump = Farage + Johnson, don't do it America, you'll be sorry.
55
This is age thing is such nonsense. The 57%-43% vote for remain among younger voters cited means that for every 3 Remain votes there were 2 Leave votes in that age group. The young haven't experienced anything else so they don't realize the EU isn't giving them anything special. One is afraid he won't get his student-exchange time abroad. The US has student exchanges with countries all around the world including China and Japan. These young are afraid of what they don't understand.
51
Actually studying abroad in China and Japan is extremely, if not prohibitively, expensive for American students. There is some but not nearly enough financial support for students who choose to study abroad, as no work study can be provided. At my university there was a very clear divide between those would could afford to and those who couldn't, as traveling to some countries (such as Japan) required paying for both a semester at the university and a semester at the foreign university. Obviously young Brits have bigger worries, but it's simply not true that low income American students share in the ability to study abroad.
1
They had equivalency with EU counties for their professional degrees. Just talked to a young woman who was relying on that to work in France where her family is when she finishes in two years.
Also Students could apply and go to any EU university at "in-state tuition" prices, which is all many of them could afford. Also they didn't need a visa to work in other EU countries after graduation.
"Not giving them anything" is misinformed and imprecise.
Also Students could apply and go to any EU university at "in-state tuition" prices, which is all many of them could afford. Also they didn't need a visa to work in other EU countries after graduation.
"Not giving them anything" is misinformed and imprecise.
1
Michael G they are not afraid of what they don't understand. They are wise enough to know they can travel through out the Union without having to show passports. And can move to any of the other 27 EU countries to live and work And at the same time maintain their healthcare. That's unlike a student moving from one U.S. state to another then find that they have no healthcare or can't adjust for whatever reason. Being part of a union gives them more clout than a go-alone small country like the U.K. that might very well end up losing Scotland and maybe even Wales. Soon the U.K. might just end up how it all started as the country of England even minus Northern Ireland. Only a xenophobic would love that. And keep in mind this is the same nation that forced itself on other people all around the globe setting up its empire where the saying once goes "the sun never set on the British empire. " And their national song boasts "Britannia rule the waves." And that they will never be slaves.
Ironic that the younger generation does not trust the older generation but the older generation are the people that setup the EU in the first place. If they were wise to join the EU in the distant past maybe they have the wisdom to leave now.
It's also pretty hard to take seriously a lot of comments from people talking about how they "feel" and how it might impact their studies, likely paid for by the older generation, rather than something larger about society and the good of their country. It's all about "me."
It's also pretty hard to take seriously a lot of comments from people talking about how they "feel" and how it might impact their studies, likely paid for by the older generation, rather than something larger about society and the good of their country. It's all about "me."
89
This jeopardizes many research, cultural, and educational exchanges for young people, and will hamstring the progress of science, medicine, and the exchange of ideas across Europe and the world. Where is does the appeal come from in this country- paranoia? The impulse to cling to privilege? The fear of competition?
I've read countless comments from leave voters and I have yet to come across a coherent account of how they think that leaving will benefit Britain in the future. It seems that for most, it is a purely emotional vote based on a desire to return to some mythical glorious British past that never existed. All about "me" indeed!
Utter rubbish. The Older generation were the beneficiaries of THEIR parents generation, post WW II, who built the NHS and the Social Welfare system. It has been today's parents who reaped the benefits and then voted Thatcher/Reagan and then /Clinton/GW/Blair to reward the financial elite, strip the Welfare state (thanks for nothing Bill and Hillary).
AS a 54 year old who did not do this, I know how true it is for a pathetic selfish majority of my generation who had it all given to them but like the anti Immigrants today wish to, shared nothing with others less fortunate but voted 'for their own short term best' (but in fact for their own and everyone else's loss).
Exactly the same as the Hillary voters; who think they are fighting Oligarchy and evil Mr Trump when they are just supporting the other side of the same Oligarchic Elite coin. More wars, more prisons, more surveillance, less jail time for the Elite, expanded rich poor gap and endless wars.
And that is the so called choice we have. More wars, more prisons, more surveillance, less jail time for, expanded Rich poor gap and endless wars. And the Hillary supporters think they are smart for wanting more of the same and yet expecting a different better result (Einsteins' definition of 'stupid') and wrongly that the young are dum or naive .
The adults gave us the two worst candidates ever, Clinton, Trump, Brexit, Austerity, warfare as peace and yet they have the chutzpah to blame the young, innocent but wise!
AS a 54 year old who did not do this, I know how true it is for a pathetic selfish majority of my generation who had it all given to them but like the anti Immigrants today wish to, shared nothing with others less fortunate but voted 'for their own short term best' (but in fact for their own and everyone else's loss).
Exactly the same as the Hillary voters; who think they are fighting Oligarchy and evil Mr Trump when they are just supporting the other side of the same Oligarchic Elite coin. More wars, more prisons, more surveillance, less jail time for the Elite, expanded rich poor gap and endless wars.
And that is the so called choice we have. More wars, more prisons, more surveillance, less jail time for, expanded Rich poor gap and endless wars. And the Hillary supporters think they are smart for wanting more of the same and yet expecting a different better result (Einsteins' definition of 'stupid') and wrongly that the young are dum or naive .
The adults gave us the two worst candidates ever, Clinton, Trump, Brexit, Austerity, warfare as peace and yet they have the chutzpah to blame the young, innocent but wise!
1
The net transfer of money from Britain to the EU (deducting "rebates" and money received) is about $12 billion/year. That's a lot of money Britain can spend to improve their schools and other parts of their country or use to reduce taxes to improve the economy.
40
Hum! Not that much apparently.
The UK gave the EU €14.5bn in 2013 and directly got back €6.3bn.
Half of that €6.3bn EU expenditure on the UK (€3.1bn) was given to UK farmers to subsidise food production. €1.1bn was given back in research grants.
But, do you really think any saving would be spent on improving schools and other parts of their country or used to reduce taxes to improve the economy.
No way - it will be needed to extricate itself from the EU, new laws, new border controls, new passports, new security initiatives, what to do about immigrants in the UK and ex-pats outside the UK, maybe housing the Calais camp in Dover, and on top of that pay much higher tariffs, among other costly things, because they are no longer a member. Plus the loss of business and investment.
It will be subject to the onerous and costly business of going it alone, which might well add up to much more than the alleged 14bn you say it paid, especially in the first 10-15 years after leaving.
The UK gave the EU €14.5bn in 2013 and directly got back €6.3bn.
Half of that €6.3bn EU expenditure on the UK (€3.1bn) was given to UK farmers to subsidise food production. €1.1bn was given back in research grants.
But, do you really think any saving would be spent on improving schools and other parts of their country or used to reduce taxes to improve the economy.
No way - it will be needed to extricate itself from the EU, new laws, new border controls, new passports, new security initiatives, what to do about immigrants in the UK and ex-pats outside the UK, maybe housing the Calais camp in Dover, and on top of that pay much higher tariffs, among other costly things, because they are no longer a member. Plus the loss of business and investment.
It will be subject to the onerous and costly business of going it alone, which might well add up to much more than the alleged 14bn you say it paid, especially in the first 10-15 years after leaving.
67
The numbers I know (2014) for the UK are € 4.9 billion (Germany € 15.5 bn). Largest net receiver is Poland (€ 13.7 bn).
I agree with you that also Germany could leave the Union and use € 15.5 bn for its schools, refugees, or Autobahns etc. The question is only: What will do then Greece, or Poland?
I.e.: Yes, of course, your thought is correct but rather uneuropean, i.e. selfish, nationalist ... and British?
The idea of the EU is a different one, and the founding spirit of the coal and steel union incompatible with your thought.
I'm a German taxpayer. We have to rethink now what solidarity with the people of the member state Greece means in practice.
I agree with you that also Germany could leave the Union and use € 15.5 bn for its schools, refugees, or Autobahns etc. The question is only: What will do then Greece, or Poland?
I.e.: Yes, of course, your thought is correct but rather uneuropean, i.e. selfish, nationalist ... and British?
The idea of the EU is a different one, and the founding spirit of the coal and steel union incompatible with your thought.
I'm a German taxpayer. We have to rethink now what solidarity with the people of the member state Greece means in practice.
1
The UK would spend the savings improving schools, the country and the economy. One thing the Brexit vote made clear is that Britain respects the wishes of its citizens. The remainder of the EU should learn from this. And, they should be prepared, as other countries are already eyeing the door.
As for finances in the immediate future, not having to pay for: other countries' bailouts; creating an infrastructure to absorb refugees; allied troops spread thin... The UK will have money to spare. 'More money, more problems.
The EU just lost a large chunk of "their" money. So they should be less worried about why the vote was made ("they didn't understand the consequences") and who made it ("people over 60 shouldn't been allowed to vote") and deal with it.
As for finances in the immediate future, not having to pay for: other countries' bailouts; creating an infrastructure to absorb refugees; allied troops spread thin... The UK will have money to spare. 'More money, more problems.
The EU just lost a large chunk of "their" money. So they should be less worried about why the vote was made ("they didn't understand the consequences") and who made it ("people over 60 shouldn't been allowed to vote") and deal with it.
3
You mean forcing immigration on millions of people who don't want it has consequences? Note to the left in this country, go ahead and keep trying to force immigration on millions of people who don't want it in this country, and remember to decry what the Supreme Court just did on immigration, but don't forget to be shocked and tearful in November right after Trump's victory.
71
Fortunately for us the old, aggrieved, xenophobic white vote continues its steady decline in the United States, to the point where Republicans can't win the presidency by simply pandering to your anger. As Republicans in general, and Trump supporters in particular, are incapable of appealing to anyone outside of this cultural bubble I'm pretty confident that the Donald won't be celebrating in November.
2
Immigration from the Commonwealth was going on before Britain joined the EU and immigration from EU countries will continue after Britain leaves the EU -- if it wants to continue trading with the EU, where 44% of its exports currently go. Just ask Norway. So this was never about immigration in the first place, as official Leave proponents now openly admit: "Tory MEP Daniel Hannan said free movement could result in similar levels of immigration after Brexit."
Everyone is an immigrant in the United States. And today we would starve if all the food that has been touched by an undocumented worker suddenly disappeared.
When I was in London, I rode a cab. The entire time, the driver despaired over Uber. He said he worked 4 years to prepare for the test that would qualify him to be a professional cabbie, only to see Uber take his customers. He believed his own gov't betrayed him by encouraging migrants & other poorer EU members into London; these were the people who drove Uber, & were hollowing out jobs.
Meanwhile, London is impossible to live in. I don't know if Americans realize this. It is the most expensive city on the planet. Many areas are empty-- billionaire 'investors' from Russia, China, the Middle East, etc have bought out large swaths, & leave it empty, ghost towns. Childcare is so expensive & at the same time impossible to staff--who can afford to live there? Londoners are driven far away from the heart of London & must commute 2 hours to go to work.
Working people know full well that the economic decisions made by the EU elite entirely benefit the EU elite & devastate the middle & working classes.You can see it very clearly in London.
The younger generation doesn't work yet. They haven't seen what the economic decisions of the oligarchy do to their own autonomy & jobs. They are very easily manipulated to believe this is about racism, something that is theoretical to them anyway (look at the photo).
The media keeps fear mongering ("fear & despair") & driving groups against each other (now it's young versus old) & ignores the real fear & despair of its working citizens.
Meanwhile, London is impossible to live in. I don't know if Americans realize this. It is the most expensive city on the planet. Many areas are empty-- billionaire 'investors' from Russia, China, the Middle East, etc have bought out large swaths, & leave it empty, ghost towns. Childcare is so expensive & at the same time impossible to staff--who can afford to live there? Londoners are driven far away from the heart of London & must commute 2 hours to go to work.
Working people know full well that the economic decisions made by the EU elite entirely benefit the EU elite & devastate the middle & working classes.You can see it very clearly in London.
The younger generation doesn't work yet. They haven't seen what the economic decisions of the oligarchy do to their own autonomy & jobs. They are very easily manipulated to believe this is about racism, something that is theoretical to them anyway (look at the photo).
The media keeps fear mongering ("fear & despair") & driving groups against each other (now it's young versus old) & ignores the real fear & despair of its working citizens.
100
The strongest leave supporters were old people who are past working age. The leave vote was not about autonomy for working people. It was about cultural resentment more than anything else.
Does anyone seriously think Brexit will reduce the power of the London elites? This is going to make things much worse for working stiffs in the rest of Britain, especially if left-leaning Scotland leaves the UK. The EU at least guaranteed some workers rights, which the Conservatives will undoubtedly waste no time in stripping away as soon as they can.
Does anyone seriously think Brexit will reduce the power of the London elites? This is going to make things much worse for working stiffs in the rest of Britain, especially if left-leaning Scotland leaves the UK. The EU at least guaranteed some workers rights, which the Conservatives will undoubtedly waste no time in stripping away as soon as they can.
1
Apparently many of the young people in the UK share the same lack of self confidence as those in the US (Bernie supporters). They don't believe they can take care of themselves and need a nanny state to "give" them jobs, healthcare, food, etc. Big media and Hollywood have brainwashed them to buy into Big Pharma, Big Banks, Big Corporations, Big Government. One world order, no borders GM food, no physical money, no guns, no privacy, no dissent, no freedom. Hurray for Brexit! Hurray for the breakup of the Soviet Union! Smaller is better. Quality of life is not measured by GDP alone
22
If American's don't see similarities between those here in the states who support Trump (leave the EU) and Sanders/Clinton (stay in the EU) we may find ourselves in a similar tailspin into the abyss Britain finds herself.
20
No more supporting European bureaucrats and millions refugees who don't want to assimilate is not a tailspin it's an upward trend.
2
The UK will be just fine. It's the EU that's in a tailspin.
2
How do commentaries like this even get written?
What support does the author have to state that young people are "more comfortable living in a multicultural society"?
Why not explain how Brexit will limit travel? Is it now because I have to use a different line exiting the airport? Or did I miss the fact that Europe only allows Europeans to travel within Europe?
Explain how their "exposure to other cultures" evaporates?
Why even quote someone so sad the he believes the vote is from a spiteful grandparent taking their rage out on their grandchildren? Where is the support that this is a true "voting block".
Amazing
What support does the author have to state that young people are "more comfortable living in a multicultural society"?
Why not explain how Brexit will limit travel? Is it now because I have to use a different line exiting the airport? Or did I miss the fact that Europe only allows Europeans to travel within Europe?
Explain how their "exposure to other cultures" evaporates?
Why even quote someone so sad the he believes the vote is from a spiteful grandparent taking their rage out on their grandchildren? Where is the support that this is a true "voting block".
Amazing
74
Maybe you don't understand that as part of Europe, Brits could not just travel but live and work legally in any country in the EU. Other Europeans had the same legal rights to live and work in Britain. That is what has been not just limited, but presumably lost now with Brexit. The youth of Britain are mourning the loss of their freedom, and the loss of friends from other countries who will now have to leave.
1
Wake up willing pawns of the uber-state! Heed your parents' crie de coeur for they see the storm approaching, and if it arrives your lives will be drenched. Drenched in a soul-crushing, dehumanizing sameness devoid of any meaning save for sedation, virtual reality prisons and a feudal existence while serving unseen, all powerful elites. Escape is still possible, but not if your horizons envision nothing more than an avatar behind which you may pretend you have a life. Tear it down now or rue the day your abdication prevents that option.
17
The "unseen, all-powerful elites" are the educated, the industrious, the intelligent, the forward-looking, the young...everybody but the fearful, the stupid, and the xenophobic.
1
I was more worried about foreboding disaster in the US before reading this piece.
When I saw that it was a generational divide , it made me hopeful that insanity will not win out here. Young people here will not vote for Trump. They are not racist or prejudiced like their parents. They have gotten over it. The only worry with them is that actually get out and vote. Bernie needs to light a burn fire under their butts to get out and stop Trump.
It's an urban / rural Deep South / east and west coast divide here and we have the votes.
Here , it's about a particular candidate, not an anonymous bureaucracy
When I saw that it was a generational divide , it made me hopeful that insanity will not win out here. Young people here will not vote for Trump. They are not racist or prejudiced like their parents. They have gotten over it. The only worry with them is that actually get out and vote. Bernie needs to light a burn fire under their butts to get out and stop Trump.
It's an urban / rural Deep South / east and west coast divide here and we have the votes.
Here , it's about a particular candidate, not an anonymous bureaucracy
21
The Clinton Campaign will be utterly responsible for a Trump victory as they have done absolutely nothing to woo Bernie supporters. Young millennials, in this country, are not living in a multi-racial and diverse society. America is deeply segregated and anecdotal "feel" good stories are not indicative of how subtle racism is entrenched in 2016.
1
the rich democrat establishment and its choice of HIllary Clinton is the problem. A lot of Bernie's support was from wanting something very different.
1
I do NOT now what to make of this vote and its aftermath. Any fool understands that the U.K's world influence has declined over the last century, yet she is still not quite a has been. The U.K has few resources, yet continues to spend as one of the top 5-6 Bog players, all without contributing much. If they truly want to survive well into the 21st century, they must CUT costs, probably beginning with conventional defense and especially their modest stock of nuclear weapons; they simply cannot afford them and we'll the U.S. will cover them anyway.
At the end of the day, G.B. cannot afford to be IN, any more than they can afford to be out of the E.U. They simply do not have the Pounds available to behave like a the 'big, powerful empire,' that they have not been for a century. Whatever power and might that they project these days is little more than bluster and wishful thinking. Sorry folks, but in truth they are relatively small modest nation and one that depends upon others to live well beyond its own means. They bluster and pomp with the best, but they do so almost entirely with borrowed money that they cannot repay. With apologies to my many U.K. friends, but you've just got to modify your habits, think smaller and more poor and stop trying to play with the big boys. You are in the wrong league!
At the end of the day, G.B. cannot afford to be IN, any more than they can afford to be out of the E.U. They simply do not have the Pounds available to behave like a the 'big, powerful empire,' that they have not been for a century. Whatever power and might that they project these days is little more than bluster and wishful thinking. Sorry folks, but in truth they are relatively small modest nation and one that depends upon others to live well beyond its own means. They bluster and pomp with the best, but they do so almost entirely with borrowed money that they cannot repay. With apologies to my many U.K. friends, but you've just got to modify your habits, think smaller and more poor and stop trying to play with the big boys. You are in the wrong league!
15
whew, point taken, but I don't think it is all that lopsided, the Brits have a fabulous "rep" and cultural influence, and with the USA as their big buddy, a "special relationship" by gosh. They are saving their heritage, which includes whiteness and traditional Britishness by all means. It is a little eerie that the Brexit folks so strongly mirror the rednecks and Trump people in the USA, though I don't think they achieve the level of violence and ignorance of that breed.
I wonder how much the backlash that the "leave" vote represents is a fear of something happening there like the millions of Mexicans who crashed the borders in the USA and dared us to do anything about it. If the Brexit vote appears a bit irrational, the Brits knowledge what has happened with the illegal Mexicans in America is likely a factor, even as a subconscious influence.
I wonder how much the backlash that the "leave" vote represents is a fear of something happening there like the millions of Mexicans who crashed the borders in the USA and dared us to do anything about it. If the Brexit vote appears a bit irrational, the Brits knowledge what has happened with the illegal Mexicans in America is likely a factor, even as a subconscious influence.
GB has the 5th largest economy in the world. Hardly little league.
The end of the European Union marks the end of the United Kingdom. Funny, wasn't the UK the model for the EU? Weren't liberal economic policies founded upon free trade demands of the Empire? Opium wars anybody?
15
Not True! In any of the four Nations of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland individual citizens participate in an election process that yields a Prime Minister via a political parties identifying an individual who will be PM should their party win a majority of MPs and or a deal with another party forming a coalition government. In an "American" translation you vote for your congressman of whatever affiliation knowing who they will choose as Speaker. The Speaker becomes Prime Minister.
When did a citizen of any of Wales, England, Northern Ireland or Scotland see the name Donald Tusk or Jean-Claude Juncker on their ballot? Do you know who these two even are?
These two position are afforded a level of executive power yet are appointed? Its not even a layered democratic process, it is straight bureaucracy and politicking! There is no popular checking system in place.
When did a citizen of any of Wales, England, Northern Ireland or Scotland see the name Donald Tusk or Jean-Claude Juncker on their ballot? Do you know who these two even are?
These two position are afforded a level of executive power yet are appointed? Its not even a layered democratic process, it is straight bureaucracy and politicking! There is no popular checking system in place.
I'd like to hear the opinion of the working-class young people. This article only focused on a well-educated minority. Not so well educated, after all, as they seem to think that Great Britain has moved to another planet.
31
I suggest that a person's vote be weighted by her/his life expectancy.
6
Great idea! That way minorities in the inner city will have less weight on their vote because their life expectancy is less! And the lower classes will have less weight than the upper classes! Love it. That's what I want in my nation--an autocracy run by children and rich people.
2
I suggest that a person who's put in more productive years into the society (ie tax) be given more votes. They earned it.
2
Yeah. Because 18 year olds have so much experience and wisdom.
1
In just a few years enough old people will die off that the Remain vote would win. Probably best to just ignore this and delay a few years then revote. No need to let the elderly determine a future they won't be part of.
4
Telling everyone over 50 that you hate them, and want them to die, is not an effective way promoting your cause.
I'm 60; perhaps if lucky I will live to 85 like most of my senior relatives. That gives me another 25 years.
How old will YOU be in 25 years? Not likely you will still be young, either.
How will YOU feel when the 25 year olds of 2041, tell you that you are useless, washed up and they hope you die?
I'm 60; perhaps if lucky I will live to 85 like most of my senior relatives. That gives me another 25 years.
How old will YOU be in 25 years? Not likely you will still be young, either.
How will YOU feel when the 25 year olds of 2041, tell you that you are useless, washed up and they hope you die?
68
Yes, great idea.
Let's disenfranchize all people over 50. They just need to pay taxes, work like dogs, see their jobs disappear, and - needless to say - pay for the college educations of these 20 year olds, and just shut up. They'll be dead in a few decades anyway. Totally democratic idea.
Let's disenfranchize all people over 50. They just need to pay taxes, work like dogs, see their jobs disappear, and - needless to say - pay for the college educations of these 20 year olds, and just shut up. They'll be dead in a few decades anyway. Totally democratic idea.
3
Very foolish and shortsighted thinking. Over time people age out of the gullible, peer-pressured, kumbaya phase of youth and gain enough life experience and wisdom to understand how the world really works.
3
Brexit and the disintegration of Great Britain: This happens when the media (the british in this case) are not media of information but some camouflaged political actors more which manipulate and indoctrinate people.
20
Britain will now have to find all the grit and know-how that the leavers say it has to make a success of their new circumstance. I am not sensing that in the comments and articles I have read. Perhaps it is too soon for that. The only countries in roughly comparable situation in Europe are Switzerland and Norway. If your country's citizens can work, and work together, like the Swiss, then there is no problem whatever you choose to do. If you have the massive economic cushion per citizen of Norway, then again you have no problem. What does Britain have at this time? It now needs a leader with Churchillian qualities (but not politics) to bring the people together and to drive forward. Even then, it is going to be a rough ride. Can they do it? I believe so, but it is far from a given.
18
In fact, if the UK wants to have acces to the unified market the same way Norway, Sweden and Switzerland do, it will be costly, and yet they won't have anything to say anymore regarding the politics of the UE. Problem is that these were some of the points that favorited the Brexit.
I agree with you both that they can do it, and that it is very far from a given. Especially because a lot of the people voting to leave didn't really understand the implications of their decision. I guess that's why so many people in Britain googled "What is the EU" the day AFTER they voted.
A twist befitting Shakespeare country would be for young British to move enmasse to Scotland in hopes Scotland manages to rejoin the EU, thereby leaving it up to the older crowd to manage the fate they chose.
30
And should that actually happen, won't our northern neighbours start complaining about immigration.... The EU is not, nor has ever been a panacea for all ills. What about the shift of wealth to the northern members at the cost of Spain, Potuagal, Greece etc. Do you really believe that their massive numbers of unemployed and disenfranchised 18-24 year olds would have voted to maintain the status quo. If the EU is doing such a great job, why were we paying a non EU country to man the borders. All change has a cost - it always takes consistent effort and focus but that is what makes achieving goals so satisfying. Wouldn't it be lovely to focus on the benefits and how they will be achieved versus listening to the scared.
1
The codgers who voted to leave the EU and who regularly holiday in Spain or elsewhere on the Mediterranean will surely be grousing when it comes time to stand in a long line for immigration on both ends of their trip.
15
It seems economically displaced are the ones who voted out. And thus I doubt they are the ones vacationing in Spain or elsewhere in EU.
What a fearful, pessimistic anti-democratic generation. They are also ignorant of life in post-war, pre-E.U. Britain and Europe. If those interviewed represent Britain's future, then there is reason to worry.
At the very least, they should be grateful to leave the Eurovision Song Contest.
At the very least, they should be grateful to leave the Eurovision Song Contest.
33
The Eurovision Song Contest is vlle tasteless pap and rubbish. And the generation who are 'fearful, pessimistic anti-democratic' are the one's who voted for Reagan, Bush, Clinton, fear immigrants and gave us Oligarchy and a tax and law free Elite who now run us and gave us no choice to vote for (ie more of the same Oligarch vs Oligarch poison) over hope, Sanders and social democracy ( a decent life for the majority).
1
Well, it is a known fact that 20% of all British citizens live on "the dole". It is logical to think at least this many if not more are young (under 35).
If you've spent your whole life slacking....while still able to take vacations in Europe and stay in free college for 9 years to get a bachelor's degree in "Gender Studies" or "Film Criticism" (with no plans to ever work at any of it), then this just makes your European vacation jaunts a bit more difficult.
If you've spent your whole life slacking....while still able to take vacations in Europe and stay in free college for 9 years to get a bachelor's degree in "Gender Studies" or "Film Criticism" (with no plans to ever work at any of it), then this just makes your European vacation jaunts a bit more difficult.
1
One thing that the media has not explained is whether or how the referendum is legally binding upon Parliament? Is the British government now somehow bound by its laws or constitution to initiate what is apparently a very complex process of withdrawal from the EU simply because a bunch of old farts (and I am 65) somehow believed their version of Donald Trump and voted to withdraw in a national popularity contest?
6
I don't think it's legally binding at all. However, ignoring the results would be politically difficult to put it mildly. Not to mention that Britain has lost all credibility within the EU, and would never be taken seriously again.
Cameron way well go down as the one of the worst, if the not the worst, PMs in history, at least if the worst case scenarios come to pass and this leads to the breakup of both the UK and the EU.
Cameron way well go down as the one of the worst, if the not the worst, PMs in history, at least if the worst case scenarios come to pass and this leads to the breakup of both the UK and the EU.
2
I think media has explained sufficiently that the referendum is not binding. And the majority of the British parliament is in effect anti-Brexit. What is required is that the/a/any British prime minister sents the divorce letter (article 50 of the Lisbon contract) to Brussels.
The current PM is obviously not willing to do so.
Now there are at least 3 months for further political theater including eventually London declaring independence from UK, or Gibraltar (re-) unifying with Spain etc. etc. etc.
The current PM is obviously not willing to do so.
Now there are at least 3 months for further political theater including eventually London declaring independence from UK, or Gibraltar (re-) unifying with Spain etc. etc. etc.
The referendum is not legally binding. Parliament is the only group that can initiate the UK's departure from the EU.
"The United Kingdom of England and Wales" has voted itself into irrelevancy. Scotland will rejoin the EU and Ireland will be reunited and be a part of the EU. Today's English and Welsh older generation who never or lived through two world wars and reaped much of what their fathers sowed has now decided to deny the same of what they enjoyed to their children.
Who would have thought Baby Boomers could be so stupid....
Who would have thought Baby Boomers could be so stupid....
19
But the lived in the UK before there was ever such a thing as the EU. Apparently they liked that UK better.
stand by - lets see if the stupidity is replicated in the US. ryan can't wait to reshuffle SSN and Medicare and whatever other tax payer dollars he can get his hands on.
Sad and unfortunate that the younger generation did not get to have more control over their future and will have to live in circumstances they did not choose. I don't know exactly how these things work but is there a possibility that once the generation behind them matures they might agree with their elders and reverse this decision?
1
Generations get skipped sometimes. The generation that was born between 1840 and 1855 did not produce a president. No one born between 1891 and 1906 became president either.
5
Once Britain leaves the EU, it's unlikely they'd ever be able to go back, even if they wanted to. If only because this is likely to lead to the unraveling of the EU and there won't be one to go back to.
And won't it be great when Europe returns to its glorious past, like the good times of 1914-1918 and 1939-1945. Those were the days!
And won't it be great when Europe returns to its glorious past, like the good times of 1914-1918 and 1939-1945. Those were the days!
Every younger generation in every corner of the world throughout the history of the species has had to live in circumstances they did not chose. That how this works. You live within your circumstances, as best you can. Then the next generation comes along, and they too must live in circumstances they did not chose.
No generation is special in this regard, and no generation is entitled to any particular recognition of this fate.
No generation is special in this regard, and no generation is entitled to any particular recognition of this fate.
Older Voters and Younger voters often have different agendas when they vote (think Social Security and Medicare) and younger highly mobile voters seldom understand the worries and needs of older folks - especially those on fixed incomes who can no longer work. That the comments here included those about older folks "ruining our future" (which is directed at people - who either survived WWII and/or were subjected to the post-war rationing that lasted until the 1950s) - indicates that they have a very short term view of history.
39
Very true. Also agree with Maka. The referendum decision is pretty earth shattering and there will be pain, but the UK (or could be England and Wales only) will survive this and in a few years will be just fine. (I am one of the old ones that have apparently destroyed the lives of the younger ones). Two things:
Firstly, there has not been sufficient discussion of how democracy has been eroded by the increasing involvement of a dysfunctional, only partly-democratic Brussels.
Secondly, I am so old that I can remember Britain in 1945 immediately following WWII. Britain was broke, really broke. We owed huge amounts of money to the US for lease-lend. There was no Marshall Aid for us. Great swathes of our cities were bomb sites, industry had to gear up for post-war production. We were still on food rationing. Fast froward fifteen years to 1960. The UK was clearly on an upward path. All this achieved before the EU and the only government that we had was voted for democratically.
Firstly, there has not been sufficient discussion of how democracy has been eroded by the increasing involvement of a dysfunctional, only partly-democratic Brussels.
Secondly, I am so old that I can remember Britain in 1945 immediately following WWII. Britain was broke, really broke. We owed huge amounts of money to the US for lease-lend. There was no Marshall Aid for us. Great swathes of our cities were bomb sites, industry had to gear up for post-war production. We were still on food rationing. Fast froward fifteen years to 1960. The UK was clearly on an upward path. All this achieved before the EU and the only government that we had was voted for democratically.
17
If the British economy contracts severely as a result of this vote, those "older folks" on "fixed incomes" are going to see their pensions melt away. The propensity of people to vote against their own interests continues to amaze.
But that's just it. The future moves forward. Yes, the older generation survived the war and all that. Chamberlain was complicit in his appeasement, but my God, it's been 71 years since the end of WWII. The world is not the same since the invention of the "smart" phone in 2007! Future moves forward. People shouldn't vote for the past.
“A lot of the older generation rely on newspapers for all their facts and don’t actually do any of their own research unlike my generation.”
This is key. 82% of print coverage (weighted to circulation) backed Leave, according to a study by the University of Loughborough.
This is key. 82% of print coverage (weighted to circulation) backed Leave, according to a study by the University of Loughborough.
15
Which paper in particular? Most, especially the guardian and independent, backed Remain.
I am not too worried about England's future. It have been around for a long time and has a strong sense of itself. It has survived all kinds of upheavals through the centuries. It was part of the EU for less than thirty years. And the voters decided in a referendum, a truly democratic event (achieved without super delegates!), that it was time to move on.
40
A few keen, if no so clever, journalists pole the losing side and unnecessarily provoke sound-bite insults and disrespect … not terribly responsible, but little is expected from journalism these days. The sound-bites themselves are easily set aside. The world, concerned about the recently ended WWII, saw BeNeLux as perhaps the best promise for the future. “Tout azimouth” DeGaul was the greatest obstructionist, but was not alone. After the ‘68 riots eased world views, Germany, France and Italy were added and we had the common market. Common currency, Shengin and other radical experiments were always of questionable importance, value and desirability. That experiment was tried-out by the UK in ‘75 with the promise of quick retreat. The experiment failed due to the adverse impacts of globalization and has been properly rejected so that another model can be pursued (like replacing the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution of 1789). The views of people who did not live these events cannot be taken seriously unless they first take this, and the other the points, made by the wizened greybeards for whom the "journalist" tells them they have contempt. Instead, most of the ‘interviews” reveal the subjects took the correct course. Concerned with frivolous matters only, they self-disenfranchised, which for them was the correct vote. Their voices, now, are properly not heard.
20
Ironic comment, considering that it was irresponsible tabloid journalists that whipped up anti-EU sentiment by printing lie after lie that led to the vote to leave. Too bad the people who voted for leave don't realize that the money men who run the tabloids don't have their best interests at heart.
Some down and out working class voter in the North of England who voted to leave will be no better off economically, and probably worse, and they won't have an iota more "sovereignty" or "democracy" than they already do. But by god, they stuck to those London toffs, didn't they?
Some down and out working class voter in the North of England who voted to leave will be no better off economically, and probably worse, and they won't have an iota more "sovereignty" or "democracy" than they already do. But by god, they stuck to those London toffs, didn't they?
Why, to win this referendum, only 51% was needed? That leaves nearly half the nation unhappy. That is not a good outcome. Usually important votes require 60% or 66% to pass! Had a higher bar been in place, Brexit would have failed.
31
There is actually a petition underway to instate those very rules: 60% or more. The petition has almost a million votes so far and will hopefully be debated in parliament.
I would agree that changes of this magnitude need to be held to higher standard. There's a reason why we can't change the Constitution with a simple majority of the popular vote.
1
Maybe the same stupid reason why the US Supreme Court has a simple 5-4 or 4-5 majority ruling instead of the more practical 2/3s majority.
Britain's medical research at universities is excellent and contributes to cures which the U.S. needs given its failed support of labs. This is a terrible blow.
Politically, it is the end of Great Britain. Scotland will leave. N Ireland will merge with the rest of the island. England will dive into a deep recession. The young people are correct about their futures in a tiny diminished market.
Politically, it is the end of Great Britain. Scotland will leave. N Ireland will merge with the rest of the island. England will dive into a deep recession. The young people are correct about their futures in a tiny diminished market.
16
I arrived on the continent in 1987. A young man at the time. It was an amazing time in history. The first serious signs of disillusionment that would lead to the falling of the Berlin Wall were in the wind. The morning after the wall fell, I packed a bag and was off to Berlin to be a part of history. That night, together with the citizens of both Berlins, east and west, we popped corks and lit fireworks atop the wall. It was the beginning of a new direction in openness and understanding.
Yesterday Britain voted to put up the first bricks in a new wall. It may not be physical, but it's ideology is clear. This is a sad day indeed.
Yesterday Britain voted to put up the first bricks in a new wall. It may not be physical, but it's ideology is clear. This is a sad day indeed.
18
Utter tosh. There is a big wide world out there, remember that Britain is in the Commonwealth, a commonwealth of nations with 53 members around the world.
It is time to move on.
It is time to move on.
I hope the Brexit result is not a foreshadowing of our election, with the blonde beast at the podium, arms raised, lying about how great America is going to be with his leadership. That's when I make my personal exit to the EU.
2
Several years from now these young people will realize that the EU was a bad experiment. The UK will survive and prosper even more. Less immigrants to deal with. Less regulation by faceless bureaucrats in Belgium. A much stronger currency. I predict that the EU will done with within 15 to 20 years.
13
Except with the departure of Scotland, Northern Ireland and maybe even Wales, the UK will not survive.
3
Less immigrants means fewer talented people from elsewhere contributing their ideas and energy to the British economy. Higher trade barriers will mean less prosperity overall. When left-leaning Scotland pulls out of the UK, what remains will be even more right-wing, and life will get worse for the working class, which will make them even angrier, and they won't have the EU and immigrants to blame everything one, so what will they turn to? Probably some sort of fascism lite. Rupert Murdoch, if he's still alive, will be thrilled. Everyone else will be cursing David Cameron.
Like a lot of us, I haven't paid too much attention to this issue but all I need to know is that the "youth" we're against it to know that I'm for it. Look who they support over here, Bernie. Someone has to save them from themselves, that's the job of adults. When was the last time anyone over forty said "I wish that I was as smart as I was when I was in my early twenties"?. Youthful naïveté is cute but wisdom needs to ultimately prevail.
19
The Brexit vote is hardly a ringing endorsement of the wisdom of the elders, now is it? As far as I'm concerned, it's a bunch of cranky pensioners yelling "Get off my lawn" at immigrants. And I'm 52.
"The referendum hinged in part on youth turnout, and the government even tried to lower the voting age for the referendum to 16 from 18."
Why did 80 year olds have more say in this than 16 years olds?
Parents of children under 18 should have gotten exta votes.
Why did 80 year olds have more say in this than 16 years olds?
Parents of children under 18 should have gotten exta votes.
2
The older citizens have 'paid their dues' the young still have their entire lives in front of them. Additionally there is no proof that the young can make any better decisions than older people, in fact, the young tend to make worst decisions than the old because to them every situation appears to be new, the old however have seen it all before and know better. This is the reason why there is not the sterotype of the wise young person, it's always the wise old person.
Why should people over 50 allow more competition for jobs when he/she knows older people have harder time finding/keeping jobs? Especially after contributing 20+ years into society with taxes?
1
Every person is equal here. A vote is a vote.
1
The next time we gripe about our slow-to-react government system and a do-nothing Congress, consider this as the alternative: rampant democracy following the simple majority without consideration of minority viewpoints or complexities.
12
The majority is only "simple" when you don't agree with it. If you don't want to live in a "majority rule" environment, i.e. a democracy, they go live in a communist society or a dictatorship. In those places, minority viewpoints are the only consideration.
1
The premise of this piece is pure propaganda!
The idea young people, with the only thing they can sell is labor, are better off with markets flooded with immigrant labor is ridiculous.
In an age of instant communications on the fly that allows local control inexpensively for almost everything why would you want centralized control by a small group of people in Brussels and give up your rights?
Economic agreement don't need to be political unions where you give up national sovereignty.
I don't believe the divide is age in the UK. In fact the same Leave forces are in many countries in Europe. Nationalism!
Switzerland never joined the EU. Has maintained its direct democracy and has done very well.
The idea young people, with the only thing they can sell is labor, are better off with markets flooded with immigrant labor is ridiculous.
In an age of instant communications on the fly that allows local control inexpensively for almost everything why would you want centralized control by a small group of people in Brussels and give up your rights?
Economic agreement don't need to be political unions where you give up national sovereignty.
I don't believe the divide is age in the UK. In fact the same Leave forces are in many countries in Europe. Nationalism!
Switzerland never joined the EU. Has maintained its direct democracy and has done very well.
29
Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Albania, Switzerland, Turkey, Russia, Macedonia and Montenegro are not in the EU.
At least Norway and Switzerland are doing superbly. Liechtenstein is literally the wealthiest nation in Europe (though very tiny). Turkey is doing fairly well. The rest are mixed bag.
It suggests that EU membership is not the panacea that the left claims.
At least Norway and Switzerland are doing superbly. Liechtenstein is literally the wealthiest nation in Europe (though very tiny). Turkey is doing fairly well. The rest are mixed bag.
It suggests that EU membership is not the panacea that the left claims.
2
Whatever the flaws of the EU are, membership in it does not entail giving up national sovereignty. Last time I checked, the UK still has a parliament and the British people still elect its members.
Too much nationalism is not a good thing. When you have some extra time look up what happened in Europe from 1914-1918 and 1939-1945. Then perhaps you will have a faint glimmer of understanding of why some people think the EU, or something like it, is a good idea.
Too much nationalism is not a good thing. When you have some extra time look up what happened in Europe from 1914-1918 and 1939-1945. Then perhaps you will have a faint glimmer of understanding of why some people think the EU, or something like it, is a good idea.
And 60% of France voted against joining EU in referendum but the politicians ignored and joined anyway!
1
Young people not voting in numbers is normal, it happens everywhere and every time. Some of the comments heaping scorn on the young are wholly unfair. As a whole, society is responsible for safeguarding it's future. As people age they have more time on their hands and increasingly reactionary opinions. An act of monumental stupidity like signing away the rights of your children is not something you blame the children for.
The one good thing you can say about Brexit is that for once the demagogues will be called out, as everything they said will not come to pass ... England (because there won't be a Britain) will be poorer and increasingly isolated for at least one generation. The poor will be poorer, there will be less jobs and opportunity. The well known productivity deficiencies in the U.K. do not get mended with a weaker currency, they get mended with investment of which there will be a lot less.
The one good thing you can say about Brexit is that for once the demagogues will be called out, as everything they said will not come to pass ... England (because there won't be a Britain) will be poorer and increasingly isolated for at least one generation. The poor will be poorer, there will be less jobs and opportunity. The well known productivity deficiencies in the U.K. do not get mended with a weaker currency, they get mended with investment of which there will be a lot less.
10
Strangely though, the English managed just fine for centuries without the EU.
And they will again. It's not like they are in outer space. They will trade with the US, Australia, Canada, China & Asia -- and of course, still with the EU, only under better terms.
And they will again. It's not like they are in outer space. They will trade with the US, Australia, Canada, China & Asia -- and of course, still with the EU, only under better terms.
1
We ignore or walk over working class views at our own peril. If you do not observe this lesson you are partly responsible for the far right/left wing government that will eventually succeed. There is a large part of the population that feel marginalized, that are shouted down as racist, old white people that should just sit down and shut up. When people feel marginalized they tend to move towards more extreme views. The anti-immigration/restrict trade crowd in every nation is not exactly wrong. For the working labor classes, they used to be supported by the liberal left parties - the left has more or less abandoned them and the right, who used to be an anathema to them, are now earning their support.
If there is no attempt to engage, compromise, and resolve - the world will continue to fractionalize. THe left is not left without labor. Lessons will be repeated until they are learned.
If there is no attempt to engage, compromise, and resolve - the world will continue to fractionalize. THe left is not left without labor. Lessons will be repeated until they are learned.
36
In the UK at least, the right is not 'earning' their support - it is manipulating them. The clincher for many of the UK 'leave' voters (who, according to polls now out, were the unemployed, the less-well-off, the less-well-educated) were about money (supposedly) going to the EU instead of being spent here in a time of cuts; and immigration from the EU.
On the very day of the result, leading 'leave' campaigners rolled back on both of those. Nigel Farage said it was a 'mistake' to say that more money would be spent on the health service, and Hannan said in a BBC interview: “Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the EU, they are going to be disappointed.”
I doubt the lessons will be learned; I wait to see what will happen in the US with a similar demographic, angry and marginalised, being manipulated with false promises...
On the very day of the result, leading 'leave' campaigners rolled back on both of those. Nigel Farage said it was a 'mistake' to say that more money would be spent on the health service, and Hannan said in a BBC interview: “Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the EU, they are going to be disappointed.”
I doubt the lessons will be learned; I wait to see what will happen in the US with a similar demographic, angry and marginalised, being manipulated with false promises...
1
"Working class views" may make a nice euphemism for ignorance, but it is still ignorance. In the US, huckster religionists created an unholy alliance with the right wing to manipulate the uninformed and superstitious into voting against their own economic self-interests out of animosity of anyone not white, Christian, and heterosexual.
And for the record, I'm old and white, and I wish the racists of my generation and its antecedents would either die or shut the hell up.
And for the record, I'm old and white, and I wish the racists of my generation and its antecedents would either die or shut the hell up.
This is the time for those politicians in Scotland who support independence from England to call for a second referendum. They will miss the opportunity to prevail if they wait for the dust to settle. And if they do prevail, why not move the EU-dependent financial business centers from London to Edinburgh? I've heard talk of moving these business centers to Paris, Dublin, Amsterdam, or Frankfort. Paris and Amsterdam I think would be poor bets based on the Frexit and Nexit movements in France and The Netherlands that will only gain traction from the success of the Brexit movement. Edinburgh should at least be a contender if Scotland were to secede from the United Kingdom which apparently is not so "united" any longer in outlook. Even in England itself, the old were separated from the young in their perspective which is a shame since the young are going to have to live in the world that the old have made.
8
I don't have any particular connection with Britain and I'm feeling really sad about the Brexit vote, as well. As many others have suggested, I think the vote portends a break-up in Great Britain, as Scotland has had the itch to leave for years. For the pro "Leave" side, did they not envision a smaller, less significant country as the ultimate endpoint?
I also wonder how an issue this significant could have been left to a simple majority vote. Some headlines are even reading "Constitutional Crisis". If that's the case, why wasn't at least a 2/3 majority required? Better yet, a 2/3 majority in each of the countries of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?
There are so many things to be sad about here. Among them is the fact that the older generation will be long gone while these young people are still paying the price for the short-sighted desires of their parents and grandparents.
I also wonder how an issue this significant could have been left to a simple majority vote. Some headlines are even reading "Constitutional Crisis". If that's the case, why wasn't at least a 2/3 majority required? Better yet, a 2/3 majority in each of the countries of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?
There are so many things to be sad about here. Among them is the fact that the older generation will be long gone while these young people are still paying the price for the short-sighted desires of their parents and grandparents.
24
So if 34% of the country wanted to stay.in the EU, their will should reign? Very shaky logic. It seems the people voted and you are unwilling to accept it.
1
Those parents and grandparents lived in the UK before the EU existed.
1
People keep bringing up the price the young ones have to pay.
What about the older ones who's paid their dues but not actually enjoy it in their remaining years?
What about the older ones who's paid their dues but not actually enjoy it in their remaining years?
1
It was a no vote to Eurabia and the EU political apparatus that has been creating it since the 1970s.
Yes to: equality under the law, freedom of speech, and the democratic process.
No to: fascism in any guise, especially the fascism masquerading as a religion, no to the cowardice that tolerates the intolerable masquerading as quivering, frighten "multiculturalism".
Yes to: equality under the law, freedom of speech, and the democratic process.
No to: fascism in any guise, especially the fascism masquerading as a religion, no to the cowardice that tolerates the intolerable masquerading as quivering, frighten "multiculturalism".
28
The 24/7 barrage of massive amounts of information at one's fingertips can be a wonderful thing. It has provided the masses with a vast array of knowledge which one might assume makes us all a little bit smarter. Well, you know what they say about those who assume?
So it is with latest kerfuffle, the Brexit affair. According to Google, a marvelous tool to be sure, the most searches this week were topics concerning the European Union. That's right, after the vote. People were now searching for the ramifications of what the Brexit vote means. Something similar happened a few weeks ago. After Stephen Hawking referred to Donald Trump as a "demagogue", guess what word came up at the top of Google's list the following day?
There is an old saw which says knowledge is power, but a little knowledge can be harmful. The world today is now filled with armchair "experts" on everything. With a little knowledge people now feel empowered to think they are as capable and smart to compete with real experts, professionals who have devoted their entire lives to a particular field.
This preponderance of a little knowledge has emboldened us into a false sense of being know it all's. Whether it be the Constitution, the Supreme Court, or Brexit, the power of the people can be a beautiful example of democracy at work. It can also be a double-edged sword where the power of people with limited knowledge can cause a catastrophe of massive proportions.
DD
Manhattan
So it is with latest kerfuffle, the Brexit affair. According to Google, a marvelous tool to be sure, the most searches this week were topics concerning the European Union. That's right, after the vote. People were now searching for the ramifications of what the Brexit vote means. Something similar happened a few weeks ago. After Stephen Hawking referred to Donald Trump as a "demagogue", guess what word came up at the top of Google's list the following day?
There is an old saw which says knowledge is power, but a little knowledge can be harmful. The world today is now filled with armchair "experts" on everything. With a little knowledge people now feel empowered to think they are as capable and smart to compete with real experts, professionals who have devoted their entire lives to a particular field.
This preponderance of a little knowledge has emboldened us into a false sense of being know it all's. Whether it be the Constitution, the Supreme Court, or Brexit, the power of the people can be a beautiful example of democracy at work. It can also be a double-edged sword where the power of people with limited knowledge can cause a catastrophe of massive proportions.
DD
Manhattan
24
I am trying to understand why the mainstream media is spinning this as old vs young, xenophobes vs. whoever.
I think that the reality is more nuanced. The idea of a distant centralized government with rule making bureaucrats who are not accountable was a reality for the UK. That sort of situation should be unacceptable to any person with a shred of self respect.
If I recall my history correctly there was an England for some years prior to the EU and I suspect that that will be the case for many years to come.
I don't see a wish to preserve a national identity and culture as something to be sneered at.
All in all I wish our cousins well and have every confidence that all will be well. I also trust that we here will play our part in supporting them.
I think that the reality is more nuanced. The idea of a distant centralized government with rule making bureaucrats who are not accountable was a reality for the UK. That sort of situation should be unacceptable to any person with a shred of self respect.
If I recall my history correctly there was an England for some years prior to the EU and I suspect that that will be the case for many years to come.
I don't see a wish to preserve a national identity and culture as something to be sneered at.
All in all I wish our cousins well and have every confidence that all will be well. I also trust that we here will play our part in supporting them.
66
" The idea of a distant centralized government with rule making bureaucrats who are not accountable was a reality for the UK. That sort of situation should be unacceptable to any person with a shred of self respect. "
The primary interest of all bureaucrats is increasing their own power and pay not the interests of the people who they supposedly serve.
The primary interest of all bureaucrats is increasing their own power and pay not the interests of the people who they supposedly serve.
8
"The idea of a distant centralized government with rule making bureaucrats who are not accountable was a reality for the UK."
If so, it is and remains reality for the reminder 27 members.
Insofar I consider this not as a reality but as a specific British (English? rural?) perception.
Funny with the British decision is that the UK has much more control over its "national" affairs than most of the other EU MSs. I only want to recall that, yes, UK is member of the EU but, is no member of Schengen, and has (still), e.g in contrast to Greece, its own central bank.
If British people actually feel that there are too many migrants to the UK they should ask, decentralised, the British governement near by hand what are their plans to reduce that number.
If the unpleasant feeling as to migrants is limited to EU citizens settling in the UK actually a Brexit is needed to introduce visa duty for this group of people.
The Brexiteers want a visa duty for non-UK EU citzens? If so, actually UK should leave the union of these citizens.
Boris told that EU citizens have nothing to fear.
Conclusion: What Boris actually wants? Implement all EU rules like Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein, Vatican, and Switzerland also in the future, and call this Brexit accomplished?
If so, it is and remains reality for the reminder 27 members.
Insofar I consider this not as a reality but as a specific British (English? rural?) perception.
Funny with the British decision is that the UK has much more control over its "national" affairs than most of the other EU MSs. I only want to recall that, yes, UK is member of the EU but, is no member of Schengen, and has (still), e.g in contrast to Greece, its own central bank.
If British people actually feel that there are too many migrants to the UK they should ask, decentralised, the British governement near by hand what are their plans to reduce that number.
If the unpleasant feeling as to migrants is limited to EU citizens settling in the UK actually a Brexit is needed to introduce visa duty for this group of people.
The Brexiteers want a visa duty for non-UK EU citzens? If so, actually UK should leave the union of these citizens.
Boris told that EU citizens have nothing to fear.
Conclusion: What Boris actually wants? Implement all EU rules like Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein, Vatican, and Switzerland also in the future, and call this Brexit accomplished?
While there are problems with the EU to be sure, I don't think you (or many of the leave voters, apparently) have a very good understanding of what it is. It is not a government, and it has never taken away the sovereignty of any member nation. As a member of the EU, Britain still has a parliament, a Prime Minister, and a Queen and can have all the pubs and eat all the fish and chips they want.
It is, to be sure, a bureaucracy and one that is undoubtedly in need of reform. But leaving it is not going to address any of the grievances and dissatisfactions that motivated leave voters.
While I wish them well, I don't think we should go out of our way to help rescue them either--they have made their decision and will have to live with the consequences.
It is, to be sure, a bureaucracy and one that is undoubtedly in need of reform. But leaving it is not going to address any of the grievances and dissatisfactions that motivated leave voters.
While I wish them well, I don't think we should go out of our way to help rescue them either--they have made their decision and will have to live with the consequences.
1
The Guardian newspaper posted a video tour by a journalist through several different constituencies in Northern England and Wales. Most of the people who were interviewed said they were voting Leave. The most interesting thing was that the reasons they gave for their choice had little to do with the EU and were much related to their overall grievances, many of them having nothing to do with the EU, for example, with their local councils. It appears that many people voted Leave with little understanding of the issues involved and even less awareness of the potential consequences. This is no way to decide such an important matter. In promoting this referendum, David Cameron should go down in history as having made one of the dumbest and most reckless decisions in British history. I feel not only for these young Britons, but also for their elders who will be feeling the blowback for years to come.
21
Exactly right.
The Guardian quotes an official working on the 'remain' campaign which held lots of focus groups. They found a massive sense of 'conspiracy' around peoples' notion of the EU. He asked one woman to give an example of the conspiracies she was talking about and she said '9/11.'
Very sad that this was the kind of thinking that drove the vote.
Because it is those people, definitely suffering, who will suffer most under a resurgent right-wing Tory administration.
The Guardian quotes an official working on the 'remain' campaign which held lots of focus groups. They found a massive sense of 'conspiracy' around peoples' notion of the EU. He asked one woman to give an example of the conspiracies she was talking about and she said '9/11.'
Very sad that this was the kind of thinking that drove the vote.
Because it is those people, definitely suffering, who will suffer most under a resurgent right-wing Tory administration.
Actually the EU does influence local councils. For example, the rule that bins should only be emptied every two weeks.
This has resulted in a plague of rats.
This has resulted in a plague of rats.
2
The guardian is a far-left newspaper, If they left you with the belief that Leavers did not understand the issues, that says more about the guardian than the voters. And it says something about your own credulity and inability to detect bias when it's on your side.
I (a 56 year old German civil servant indirectly working at the EU level) am not sure whether young Britons shall fear so much.
Yesterday I still was shocked about the result. Today I feel the Brexit vote is a chance because it has much more focused the question what EU membership, and what Europe as such, is - and this time not only in the spirit of the coal and steel union between France and West Germany as the appropriate and uttermost successful answer to the supposed "hereditary enmity" of both "nations".
I like very much young Britons protesting with the words: "I'm not British, I'm European!" That was the same sentence (with British replaced by German) I used to tell to my parents (my father of the generation fighting in WWII in the name of Hitler and Germany) about 40 years ago.
What we (=all Europeans including the English man) need is an answer to the question what Britons actually want, and what EU membership, better non-membership, means to them.
Immigrants? UK is member of the EU but not of Schengen. A Syrian refugee to Germany, or my Thai wife with a permanent Schengen visa, cannot come to the UK without applying for a visa. The Polish farm worker? Which British governement will implement a law that says that Polish farm workers and French perfume traders have to deported in handcuffs back to Poland and France?
What the Brexiters actually want? I have no clue. So let them speak what precisely they want. Nothing to fear but a lot to laugh about. A chance!
Yesterday I still was shocked about the result. Today I feel the Brexit vote is a chance because it has much more focused the question what EU membership, and what Europe as such, is - and this time not only in the spirit of the coal and steel union between France and West Germany as the appropriate and uttermost successful answer to the supposed "hereditary enmity" of both "nations".
I like very much young Britons protesting with the words: "I'm not British, I'm European!" That was the same sentence (with British replaced by German) I used to tell to my parents (my father of the generation fighting in WWII in the name of Hitler and Germany) about 40 years ago.
What we (=all Europeans including the English man) need is an answer to the question what Britons actually want, and what EU membership, better non-membership, means to them.
Immigrants? UK is member of the EU but not of Schengen. A Syrian refugee to Germany, or my Thai wife with a permanent Schengen visa, cannot come to the UK without applying for a visa. The Polish farm worker? Which British governement will implement a law that says that Polish farm workers and French perfume traders have to deported in handcuffs back to Poland and France?
What the Brexiters actually want? I have no clue. So let them speak what precisely they want. Nothing to fear but a lot to laugh about. A chance!
11
This referendum should never have been conducted nor proposed. Parliament is to blame for its approval in the form and time frame it took on. A hugely serious proposition, it was ill-considered in its scope and the fact that understanding it by the populace in just a few short months was unlikely if not impossible. While the blame may be placed on the voters, David Cameron proposed it to improve his reelection chances, and then unconvincingly opposed it. Boris Johnson and Nick Lafarge cynically exploited the election for their own political purposes. Now, as this article points out, the young of the U.K. have been hamstrung for life.
9
So Scotland will soon be an independent country, then join the EU, then be fully committed to accept Middle Eastern and African refugees, who then from there try to sneak into England. That entire North Sea island will be a disaster from all angles and permanently. The entire EU, starting with Angela Merkel, has made a mess of this whole thing starting some 40 years ago.
7
"...be fully committed to accept Middle Eastern and African refugees..."
There is (currently) no such a committment in the contracts. How many of those refugees the (still intact) UK accepts, can be decided by Mr Cameron himself. The discussion of "upper limits" is well known in Europe (see e.g. Austria).
Whether an independent Scotland wants to become member of Schengen is another question.
The number of refugees is, following UNHCR, currently about 21 millions (more than 50% coming from 3 countries, Somalia, Afghanistan, Syria).
Btw, why the EU (500 million inhabitants), USA, or China should not be comitted to take some of them? If the EU would do this, rules would be needed how to implement this at the level of the MSs (including Scotland but not the UK?). A current discussion in stalemate. If the UK wants to have influence on this discussion it should stay in the EU - otherwise the kind of border in-between Scotland and England is obviously on the agenda.
There is (currently) no such a committment in the contracts. How many of those refugees the (still intact) UK accepts, can be decided by Mr Cameron himself. The discussion of "upper limits" is well known in Europe (see e.g. Austria).
Whether an independent Scotland wants to become member of Schengen is another question.
The number of refugees is, following UNHCR, currently about 21 millions (more than 50% coming from 3 countries, Somalia, Afghanistan, Syria).
Btw, why the EU (500 million inhabitants), USA, or China should not be comitted to take some of them? If the EU would do this, rules would be needed how to implement this at the level of the MSs (including Scotland but not the UK?). A current discussion in stalemate. If the UK wants to have influence on this discussion it should stay in the EU - otherwise the kind of border in-between Scotland and England is obviously on the agenda.
> why the EU (500 million inhabitants), USA, or China should not be comitted to take some of them?
Problem is such discussion happens between rich and powerful who barely encounter average citizen in daily life, and hence don't face the consequences of such action.
While following the Paris terrorist attack and the subsequent focus on Molenbeek, I heard a journalist casually mention that employees at EU HQ in Brussels do NOT walk cross a canal bridge to enter Molenbeek. Because they know it's a no go zone for them.
I found it so ironic.
Problem is such discussion happens between rich and powerful who barely encounter average citizen in daily life, and hence don't face the consequences of such action.
While following the Paris terrorist attack and the subsequent focus on Molenbeek, I heard a journalist casually mention that employees at EU HQ in Brussels do NOT walk cross a canal bridge to enter Molenbeek. Because they know it's a no go zone for them.
I found it so ironic.
A CNN article refers to the UK's "diminished clout." If their clout is so diminished by leaving the EU, why is every major news source full of little else but the consequences to the EU and the world of Britain's exit? This will not diminish the UK. It will embolden the people of other nations to rethink this strangling alliance, which benefits the Masters of the Universe, i.e. the political and financial elites. And the poor of the less-industrialized countries who are deluded into thinking their lives will be better in Europe. Yes, they may get better jobs. But they will be socially and economically marginalized and resented by their "hosts," and the global masters will do little about this.
7
Not surprising.As in this country, the young generation are the ones who have been brainwashed by the educational system and certain elites who have enriched themselves on the virtues of globalization and open borders. Older people have the advantage of having lived long enough to remember a worldwide system of governance that was a model of efficiency compared to the mess the Liberals in Europe and America have created.
12
Meaning the worldwide system of governance that led to fascism, two world wars, the cold war and its proxy conflicts, and the carving up of the middle east that exacerbated its historic divisions and current strife? Pro-nationalism!
Let's disentangle America and Europe:
Brexit: The primary concern of leave voters was immigration, not impact on the economy (52% vs. 18%). This was inverse for remainers (41% vs. 14%). The UK was already one of the most lightly regulated countries (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/02/graphics-britain-s-.... 7 of the UK's top 10 trading partners are in the EU. One of the EU's main objectives is to promote trade. Global trade lowers prices by reducing production costs, so everyone is better off. Yay, facts are fun!
America: Globalization has resulted in middle class jobs moving over seas, fueling anger. It has also significantly reduced prices we pay for goods. Free trade and globalization are not the problem. The problem is all of their benefits flow to a few folks at the top. If those benefits could be re-allocated to those harmed, society would be better. We can't do that though; it's called progressive redistribution, which is antithetical to the same crowd that is so angry about global trade. Understanding the root cause of issues tends to be important in resolving them. I'm proud to be part of the educated young (34 with a successful career); I can understand what the actual problems are, with facts.
Let's disentangle America and Europe:
Brexit: The primary concern of leave voters was immigration, not impact on the economy (52% vs. 18%). This was inverse for remainers (41% vs. 14%). The UK was already one of the most lightly regulated countries (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/02/graphics-britain-s-.... 7 of the UK's top 10 trading partners are in the EU. One of the EU's main objectives is to promote trade. Global trade lowers prices by reducing production costs, so everyone is better off. Yay, facts are fun!
America: Globalization has resulted in middle class jobs moving over seas, fueling anger. It has also significantly reduced prices we pay for goods. Free trade and globalization are not the problem. The problem is all of their benefits flow to a few folks at the top. If those benefits could be re-allocated to those harmed, society would be better. We can't do that though; it's called progressive redistribution, which is antithetical to the same crowd that is so angry about global trade. Understanding the root cause of issues tends to be important in resolving them. I'm proud to be part of the educated young (34 with a successful career); I can understand what the actual problems are, with facts.
1
If increased trade was the the only outcome of globalization and it meant higher income, I think mid/lower class wouldn't mind it.
Problem is influx of immigrants. Same amount of land/housing/social service, but more competition for it.
And the supposed increase in profit in fact flow mostly to the already very rich.
No wonder average UK voter wanted out, regardless of they understood implications or not. Btw, the hype of people not knowing what they voted for is well, hype.
Problem is influx of immigrants. Same amount of land/housing/social service, but more competition for it.
And the supposed increase in profit in fact flow mostly to the already very rich.
No wonder average UK voter wanted out, regardless of they understood implications or not. Btw, the hype of people not knowing what they voted for is well, hype.
It seems that if we don't participate in the decision, others will decide for us. That's the bottomline. Young people have to learn to take part in politics.
Young Brits: to the streets! The referendum is non binding. If you can give grounds for the parliament to reinterpret the result of the referendum (and they are probably eager for those reasons), maybe you can still save your future.
In fact, the people of Britain seem to have answered to a different question than the one in the ballot: immigration. But if the answer given by the people was indeed about immigration, then immigrants should also have been allowed to vote. It strikes me as undemocratic to decide the fate of a group of people without hearing from them.
Young Brits: to the streets! The referendum is non binding. If you can give grounds for the parliament to reinterpret the result of the referendum (and they are probably eager for those reasons), maybe you can still save your future.
In fact, the people of Britain seem to have answered to a different question than the one in the ballot: immigration. But if the answer given by the people was indeed about immigration, then immigrants should also have been allowed to vote. It strikes me as undemocratic to decide the fate of a group of people without hearing from them.
4
"It strikes me as undemocratic to decide the fate of a group of people without hearing from them."
Well then, let's go back a few thousand years and let continents and countries vote on being colonized by Europeans. The world would look totally different.
Well then, let's go back a few thousand years and let continents and countries vote on being colonized by Europeans. The world would look totally different.
I am dismayed by the British vote. As an Asian living in US, whether Britan leave or remain may matter little to me personally. But it affects me. To me, EU, despite its shortcomings, represents the aspirations of nations to overcome their differences to live peacefully together. And I had hoped our world would become a same Union where people can move freely without visas or borders. Won't that be wonderful? With this vote, that dream dies a little.
15
The dream you and I share is humanity's only future, rest assured.
There is already tremendous regret over this decision - in addition to the immediate financial consequences, the Leave group has walked back three of their major tabloid-fueled claims in the past 24 hours. There is also concern that many London-based Remain voters were unable to get to the polls due to torrential flooding. This was a tragic mistake and it will be on the Brits to reverse it.
6
It is now about 8AM Eastern Daylight Savings time, and there are reports on the broadcast news that about 200,000 signatures have been affixed to a petition to the British Parliament asking for a re-vote.
That is absolutely unbelievable. It seems that huge numbers of voters had no idea what they were voting for, or what the consequences of a Leave vote might mean.
The level of sheer stupidity that such an assertion connotes just boggles the mind. Can it be the case that the British people are that "out of it"? One has to hope that American voters will pay more attention than that to our Presidential elections.
That is absolutely unbelievable. It seems that huge numbers of voters had no idea what they were voting for, or what the consequences of a Leave vote might mean.
The level of sheer stupidity that such an assertion connotes just boggles the mind. Can it be the case that the British people are that "out of it"? One has to hope that American voters will pay more attention than that to our Presidential elections.
16
It is truly unfortunate that the media would rather create a generation war that learn from the real issues illustrated by the vote to leave the EU. It is, however, not surprising. The media always goes after the easy story; the stories that the establishment wants told.
The vote to leave the EU is a response to a tone deaf bureaucracy that is run by an elite group of bankers unconnected to the people... Unincorporated humans, they are supposed to represent. It is a response by a middle class collapsing under a system that simply misses the point. The EU like the TTIP and the TTP is really good for big multinationals, bankers and billionaires but not so good for the middle class and the working class.
But that's ok, the NYT has a narrative to push...only racist old people could possibly object to an undemocratic government virtually insulated from accountability to the governed. Right on, bro!
The vote to leave the EU is a response to a tone deaf bureaucracy that is run by an elite group of bankers unconnected to the people... Unincorporated humans, they are supposed to represent. It is a response by a middle class collapsing under a system that simply misses the point. The EU like the TTIP and the TTP is really good for big multinationals, bankers and billionaires but not so good for the middle class and the working class.
But that's ok, the NYT has a narrative to push...only racist old people could possibly object to an undemocratic government virtually insulated from accountability to the governed. Right on, bro!
30
I fail to see how being dominated by an elite bureaucracy in London is going to be any better for working and middle-class Brits. The EU at least ensures some protections for workers. I don't think the average Brit is going to like what unrestrained British conservatives are going to unleash on them.
I wonder what the correlation is between those Brits (apart from the Scots themselves) who wanted Scotland to stay in the UK and those who voted to leave the EU. I would guess that given the nationalistic tendencies of the Brexit crowd, it would want to keep Scotland as part of Great Britain. I gather it will be shocked therefore at the possible repercussion of a new Scottish referendum to leave the UK.
5
The "tyranny of the majority" is democracy's greatest weakness. It looks like less than 3/4 of eligible voters bothered to vote, so a slight majority vote to leave is actually a minority vote to leave. That is why fundamental issues of political unions cannot be left to a single voting occasion. There should also always be a follow-up confirmation (like French presidency's are decided in a tw0-vote process). Brexit was known to be fundamental. The law authorizing it should have had a second confirming vote a week to later.
4
You can say the same thing about American elections, because turnout is usually low. And if Americans won't vote once, what makes you think they'll vote twice?
8
Voter turnout in Brexit was 72.2%.
That's astonishingly high.
That's astonishingly high.
Why are the EU's founder's in such a hurry for Britain to leave? That is just wounded pride speaking. The uncertainty argument is weak because leaving is a two-years-long negotiation in any case. Everyone should wait a few months; the referendum was non-binding, and the next UK government could decide to overrule the result and remain in the EU. Once Article 50 is invoked there is no return.
2
Because until the new arrangement has been worked out there is greater uncertainty. Uncertainty makes it hard for government and market to forecast.
5
Not the "EU' founders" (the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Belgium, France, Italy, (West-) Germany) but the President of the European Commission Juncker.
Why he is doing so? My guess is that he want to see quickly the no return in order to see soon the discussion in the UK what it actually means to leave the EU ***in concrete***.
The resulting political discussion in the UK will all but support populists in the remaining 27 MSs, thus, required quickly.
Why he is doing so? My guess is that he want to see quickly the no return in order to see soon the discussion in the UK what it actually means to leave the EU ***in concrete***.
The resulting political discussion in the UK will all but support populists in the remaining 27 MSs, thus, required quickly.
1
Yes, I am sure that overturning a vote of the entire nation, with definite clear results, and instead imposing elitist "rule" over the masses, will work out brilliantly.
There is no way that can possibly go wrong.
There is no way that can possibly go wrong.
1
What the young of Great Britain haven't had to confront is being forced to emigrate for a job, a career. Britain has long been a center for some of the world's best universities, who's graduates are almost immediately integrated into the career driven ranks of some of the worlds largest international corporations. The young of Britain were raised to be a part of EU, with full rights of EU citizenship. And now, they've had the rug pulled out from them. They're about to be cast adrift, and they have no experience in how to paddle to safety. Many will now have to emigrate, they will have to leave their homes, their families, and their friends in order to have the career they've trained for. But back home, in Merry Old England, they will have their nationalism to keep them cold company, instead of their children and grand-children. As a first generation Irish American, the terrible irony here is that for generations, the Irish were forced to emigrate seeking work. Now the British through anger, fear, bitterness and lack of foresight just sent their own children down that same road after us. By looking backwards, they won the battle on nationalism and isolationism, but lost the war. They forgot that their children and grand-children are looking forwards.
11
Great Britain looks very small today. Yes it can now speak with its own voice in the world (couldn't it always?), but it may find that nobody's listening.
15
Doubtful considering they're the world's 6th largest economy.
I read that the most prominent Google search in the UK yesterday was "what is the EU?"
Please save the comments about how well reasoned and inevitable the referendum's outcome was. Many people were herded into a sort of xenophobic nationalism by the leave group without really knowing the full implications of what they were voting for or against.
The world has changed and is changing rapidly. Sure there are social and political difficulties that must be managed better and will be within the EU. But the EU has the largest economy in the world as modern economies have a terrific edge if they have integrated markets and capital.
Winston Churchill's claim that the most pressing argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter still rings true.
Please save the comments about how well reasoned and inevitable the referendum's outcome was. Many people were herded into a sort of xenophobic nationalism by the leave group without really knowing the full implications of what they were voting for or against.
The world has changed and is changing rapidly. Sure there are social and political difficulties that must be managed better and will be within the EU. But the EU has the largest economy in the world as modern economies have a terrific edge if they have integrated markets and capital.
Winston Churchill's claim that the most pressing argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter still rings true.
16
This is one of the more discouraging aspects of the Leave vote. Due to the huge discrepancy in opinion due to age, it will only be a matter of years before the Leave majority evaporates simply due to generational replacement (not to mention unhappiness with the actual as opposed to the promised consequences). Foreclosing on the future is an ugly thing for an older generation to do its successors.
The British political establishment needs to think very hard about the consequences of slavishly following the letter of the results of this advisory referendum. Brexit is not so much bowing to the majority as taking sides, one part of the country against the other. There must certainly be ways of respecting the political and economic concerns of the Leave majority without tearing Britain apart.
The British political establishment needs to think very hard about the consequences of slavishly following the letter of the results of this advisory referendum. Brexit is not so much bowing to the majority as taking sides, one part of the country against the other. There must certainly be ways of respecting the political and economic concerns of the Leave majority without tearing Britain apart.
7
Why did the UK vote to leave the EU? Here is my two cents worth.
First and foremost this has been a failure of the political establishment. The vote was called by DC in the first place to put a sticking plaster over internal Conservative Party divisions, with the assumption that no way would there be a real contest. An alliance of all the main political parties would ensure this. But the Tories were still divided during the vote and the Labour Party had a leader whose long held preference was to leave, and whose enforced support for remain was nominal and lack-lustre at best. We then had the charismatic BJ see the vote as his big chance to become prime minister and he went on to lead a very effective out campaign.
The seeds for the out vote were sown earlier though. For me the most telling interview yesterday was with a labour shadow minister, who said that travelling around it had felt like a 'bye-election'. Voters traditionally kick the government hard in bye-elections, because they don't matter much. This one did. Poorer, less-educated English have had a tough time post 2008. They rarely get a chance to have a meaningful vote (most live in Labour heartlands where results are a foregone conclusion) and this was a chance to express their deep seated unhappiness with the status quo. In Scotland the equivalent group of the population have been very effectively channelled into displaying their unhappiness by voting for the SNP and Scottish Independence.
First and foremost this has been a failure of the political establishment. The vote was called by DC in the first place to put a sticking plaster over internal Conservative Party divisions, with the assumption that no way would there be a real contest. An alliance of all the main political parties would ensure this. But the Tories were still divided during the vote and the Labour Party had a leader whose long held preference was to leave, and whose enforced support for remain was nominal and lack-lustre at best. We then had the charismatic BJ see the vote as his big chance to become prime minister and he went on to lead a very effective out campaign.
The seeds for the out vote were sown earlier though. For me the most telling interview yesterday was with a labour shadow minister, who said that travelling around it had felt like a 'bye-election'. Voters traditionally kick the government hard in bye-elections, because they don't matter much. This one did. Poorer, less-educated English have had a tough time post 2008. They rarely get a chance to have a meaningful vote (most live in Labour heartlands where results are a foregone conclusion) and this was a chance to express their deep seated unhappiness with the status quo. In Scotland the equivalent group of the population have been very effectively channelled into displaying their unhappiness by voting for the SNP and Scottish Independence.
18
@SteveC
Northern England
This is a pretty good take SteveC. I know Britain fairly well having studied and worked there and having family connections. Cameron took a huge gamble to deal with an internal political dispute in his own party, while Labour now a shadow of it's former self is led by a sort of ineffectual British Bernie Sanders whose performance was pathetic. Added to this there was undoubtedly a large element of a protest vote by Labour voters against the conservative government which is widely hated by voters in the North and midlands of England because of its austerity program and because it has largely ignored the needs of that part of the country. All this said the principal blame for this fiasco must lie with Cameron who took a totally unnecessary risk and lost. Vote in haste and repent at leisure. There is going to be a lot of buyers remorse in the UK (if indeed the UK survives) over the next few year as the implications of this disaster unfold. Forget the immediate panic in markets. This will rapidly subside but as the terms of exit are negotiated there will be a gradual diminution of Britain's economic performance (all major corporations are already putting inward investment plans on hold...wouldn't you) and world influence. The young of Britain, particularly the best of the young, who have been betrayed by their elders and those with a grievance have much to be unhappy about.
Northern England
This is a pretty good take SteveC. I know Britain fairly well having studied and worked there and having family connections. Cameron took a huge gamble to deal with an internal political dispute in his own party, while Labour now a shadow of it's former self is led by a sort of ineffectual British Bernie Sanders whose performance was pathetic. Added to this there was undoubtedly a large element of a protest vote by Labour voters against the conservative government which is widely hated by voters in the North and midlands of England because of its austerity program and because it has largely ignored the needs of that part of the country. All this said the principal blame for this fiasco must lie with Cameron who took a totally unnecessary risk and lost. Vote in haste and repent at leisure. There is going to be a lot of buyers remorse in the UK (if indeed the UK survives) over the next few year as the implications of this disaster unfold. Forget the immediate panic in markets. This will rapidly subside but as the terms of exit are negotiated there will be a gradual diminution of Britain's economic performance (all major corporations are already putting inward investment plans on hold...wouldn't you) and world influence. The young of Britain, particularly the best of the young, who have been betrayed by their elders and those with a grievance have much to be unhappy about.
8
As it has been found that the Brexit campaigners group breaches Election law by campaigning in the Election day nearby Polling Station which really unaccepatle and against Election rule that no party or campaign could run their activities in the election day as they have to stop just before 24 hours of the Election day. So its really unacceptable and manipulated result as well that Brexit campaign own breach Election rules and they win in the result.
2
In general the young are more optimistic and outward looking then the old.
They want to work abroad and experience other cultures.
This is a disaster for them. It is not a success for the working class who want an end to European influence and immigration.
The Norwegian option means paying into the EU and not having a say in how regulation is drafted. And also accepting movement of labor.
Britain has contributed much to the EU in the way of bureaucrats and help in drafting legislation. They will no longer be able to do so.
They want to work abroad and experience other cultures.
This is a disaster for them. It is not a success for the working class who want an end to European influence and immigration.
The Norwegian option means paying into the EU and not having a say in how regulation is drafted. And also accepting movement of labor.
Britain has contributed much to the EU in the way of bureaucrats and help in drafting legislation. They will no longer be able to do so.
2
Leaders are elected to make large decisions on behalf of the citizens. Referendums on items of this magnitude should not be decided by referendums. We live in a 24/7 social media age where information and facts are put forward with no filters and are not "fact checked" before millions are influenced by often inaccurate information. As Thomas Friedman said "the world is flat". The UK with its vote built a version of Trump's wall, a wall which will isolate the citizens of the UK and its economy.
2
The truth is big business loves small government so it can violate the human rights of employees, take risks with the health of consumers, and have a free hand with defiling the environment. Above all big business hates democracy and the smaller the government the easier to control it.
This is true in the US as well in the EU. Big Business, the Koch brothers, and Trump would use any tool to to undermine the hated central government. Have you heard? Government gets in the way of profits with regulations.
Big business uses nationalism, misogyny, xenophobia, racism, and homophobia as wedge issues to divide in order to rule. Nazisim in the twentieth century provided an ideal environment for big business to thrive with no controls. Even our own IBM got in the feeding frenzy.
"State rights" or breaking up the EU is not the solution part of the problem so big business can engage in wanton violations of worker human rights, consumer safety, and destruction of our environment.
This is true in the US as well in the EU. Big Business, the Koch brothers, and Trump would use any tool to to undermine the hated central government. Have you heard? Government gets in the way of profits with regulations.
Big business uses nationalism, misogyny, xenophobia, racism, and homophobia as wedge issues to divide in order to rule. Nazisim in the twentieth century provided an ideal environment for big business to thrive with no controls. Even our own IBM got in the feeding frenzy.
"State rights" or breaking up the EU is not the solution part of the problem so big business can engage in wanton violations of worker human rights, consumer safety, and destruction of our environment.
9
The BBC made a brilliant job describing exactly what happened behind the scenes - behind 10 Downing Street doors that is. It revealed that in reality the psychodrama between the two main players, "Cam" (David Cameron) and "Bojo" (Boris Johnson) was the cause for the disaster they themselves were unable to envision, busy as they were pushing the envelope to the max for total EU Armageddon. "Cam" yielded to "animal spirits", the irrationality behind the extreme-right faction within his coalition (the "Bojo's" one) and pigheadedly called the referendum risking everything to show he was better than "Bojo". Little did he know. Meanwhile the media machine were hoodwinking the world blaming "Little England", the rural, diffident, distrustful seniors as game-changers. A perfect storm ready to happen in order to hide the true psychodrama between two catastrophic ideas of how to allegedly govern an European country to its final demise. In the end it all boiled down to the blue-on-blue battle of two juggernauts pushing into uncharted waters irrespective of the consequences they would not foresee or failed to foresee. Vanity at it zenith. Uncanny; is this how wars begin? Yielding to blind ambition wanting to kill your brotherly friend/rival of old and you do not care of the fate of others?
3
A weakness of the EU is that, for some issues, it uses direct democracy--referenda. That's a weakness because, for much else, they use representative democracy. While our representatives are rarely paragons of virtue, referenda, like presidential elections, are open to manipulation by the unscrupulous, and the questions voted on are often of a technicality that many voters just do not understand. Both Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are unscrupulous manipulators. That these two are the official faces of England is beyond appalling. Long ago, England had people like black-shirted Mosley (friend of royals) and Enoch Powell. Mosley was finally dumped, and Powell had to go to Northern Ireland to get a parliamentary seat—in one of the few districts that has now voted to leave the EU. One positive may be that BoJo may have ruined his chance of becoming David Cameron’s successor as Tory leader, and God forbid, prime minister.
In the Irish Republic, the government’s response to unwanted results in an EU referendum has been to harangue the people for a few months, and then to run the referendum again. Buyer’s remorse having kicked in, the “right” result was now provided.
BTW: Tory was originally an insult devised by Whigs. Tory is derived from Gaelic, at time referring to roving bands of robbers. Literally, it meant “hunters,” in an unflattering sense. BoJo!
In the Irish Republic, the government’s response to unwanted results in an EU referendum has been to harangue the people for a few months, and then to run the referendum again. Buyer’s remorse having kicked in, the “right” result was now provided.
BTW: Tory was originally an insult devised by Whigs. Tory is derived from Gaelic, at time referring to roving bands of robbers. Literally, it meant “hunters,” in an unflattering sense. BoJo!
3
Majorities in Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU: that was more of a verdict against the UK than for the EU. "Brexit" was a cutesy and inaccurate term--that it was a UK-wide vote. There was another reality: it was an English nationalist vote. I've been saying for decades: the wrongs done to the “Irish” by "the English" were wrongs done by the powerful to the weak. It wasn't an ethnic thing. It was power and greed, whether driven by religious bigotry, as in Cromwell's time, or by greed for most of the rest of the time. English workers were treated badly through the centuries, including the last decades. Thatcher is no saint to workers or the unemployed. In the modern world, the poorly educated youth of England have found themselves in a blind alleyway.
That a majority of Welsh voters said "leave" was a surprise. But then, Wales was "incorporated" into England back in the 13th C, while Scotland was spared that experience until the 18th C. Further, the Tudor dynasty was started by a Norman-Welshman who became Henry VII, and heirs to the throne have often been titled Prince of Wales, a matter of pride to some Welsh. And many inhabitants of Wales are actually English.
That a majority of Welsh voters said "leave" was a surprise. But then, Wales was "incorporated" into England back in the 13th C, while Scotland was spared that experience until the 18th C. Further, the Tudor dynasty was started by a Norman-Welshman who became Henry VII, and heirs to the throne have often been titled Prince of Wales, a matter of pride to some Welsh. And many inhabitants of Wales are actually English.
6
The results of the referendum have left the UK deeply divided. It can be said that the people have "finally spoken" but the figures and stats clearly show that the youth wanted to remain in Europe. Nearly have the country have voted to remain, accounting for 75% of the youth. The unfairness of it all lies in the fact that the youth will be feeling the impact the most - in job cuts, in loss of opportunities, in yet again another stagnation of the economy. All of which could have been avoided if the older generation hadn't used the EU as a scapegoat to revolt against the current political establishment. But it will be the youth in Britain that will be feeling its effect and struggling to heal a rift that has appeared overnight erasing 43 years of goodwill, solidarity, stability, and economic union with Europe the most.
7
From reading these comments, it's pretty clear the EU is not well understood in the US.
I'll use a NAFTA analogy to see if that helps.
Imagine if your country voted 44 years ago to enter a common market for goods and services, but over time that agreement morphed to include no-border controls (albeit not accepted by the UK); free movement of people and labour; free health care etc, and membership increased from 6 to 28 countries.
Now imagine if NAFTA expanded to include both North and South America, and people in Bolivia or Colombia (for example) suddenly had a right to live in the USA, to work or not work, to receive health care, bring their families, have them educated in your schools at your expense, and what you got in return was the right to live in Bolivia, Colombia or any other country in North or South America.
How well would that be supported?
To all those commentators using words like xenophobic and racist, please ask yourself how would US citizens feel if the free trade agreement your country signed morphed into a pan-American scheme with an un(directly)-elected government that has extended the agreements beyond a common market and free trade into areas of shared health and education, shared health care etc, and no border controls.
Before you accuse the UK of being xenophobic, or racist, please try to reflect on how today's EU is compared to what was envisaged 44 years ago. Would the US ever accept this? Does that make you xenophobic and racist?
I'll use a NAFTA analogy to see if that helps.
Imagine if your country voted 44 years ago to enter a common market for goods and services, but over time that agreement morphed to include no-border controls (albeit not accepted by the UK); free movement of people and labour; free health care etc, and membership increased from 6 to 28 countries.
Now imagine if NAFTA expanded to include both North and South America, and people in Bolivia or Colombia (for example) suddenly had a right to live in the USA, to work or not work, to receive health care, bring their families, have them educated in your schools at your expense, and what you got in return was the right to live in Bolivia, Colombia or any other country in North or South America.
How well would that be supported?
To all those commentators using words like xenophobic and racist, please ask yourself how would US citizens feel if the free trade agreement your country signed morphed into a pan-American scheme with an un(directly)-elected government that has extended the agreements beyond a common market and free trade into areas of shared health and education, shared health care etc, and no border controls.
Before you accuse the UK of being xenophobic, or racist, please try to reflect on how today's EU is compared to what was envisaged 44 years ago. Would the US ever accept this? Does that make you xenophobic and racist?
41
Your argument comparing the current EU to a theoretical "expanded NAFTA" is tenuous at best. The countries of the Americas are mostly economically unequal. While the economic differences between EU countries do exist (especially between the "old EU" countries and the "new EU" Bulgaria and Romania")the gap is not as wide as in your "theoretical" NAFTA.
You are comparing peaches to bananas.
The net immigration from the EU to the UK was around +200,000 (as of the last figures). Seems that those contributed into the UK by paying taxes and supporting the NHS.
Meanwhile there are about 1.6 million UK expats working and living in other areas of the EU. And you can bet that if the economy in the UK were to tank, and that of the Continent were to thrive, you would see negative net migration into the UK.
The EU is not perfect and it needs deep reforms to make it sustainable in the long run. But to throw a hissy fit and stomp your foot down and leave the room does not seem to be a good tactical and negotiating ploy.
From your comment, it is pretty clear that you have a loose grasp of where you live...
You are comparing peaches to bananas.
The net immigration from the EU to the UK was around +200,000 (as of the last figures). Seems that those contributed into the UK by paying taxes and supporting the NHS.
Meanwhile there are about 1.6 million UK expats working and living in other areas of the EU. And you can bet that if the economy in the UK were to tank, and that of the Continent were to thrive, you would see negative net migration into the UK.
The EU is not perfect and it needs deep reforms to make it sustainable in the long run. But to throw a hissy fit and stomp your foot down and leave the room does not seem to be a good tactical and negotiating ploy.
From your comment, it is pretty clear that you have a loose grasp of where you live...
3
It was an analogy.
You cannot deny that the EU started as a post-WWII association for the free trade of coal and steel required to rebuild Europe.
Within 25 years that had broadened into an overall Economic Community, and in the mid-70s the UK voted to join a "Mormon market for goods and services".
Since that time, the EU has taken on far broader roles than (a) were ever postulated, and (b) were approved by their sovereign constituencies.
Hence the analogy to NAFTA, which was only ratified in 1994 (give it another 25 years).
To your point about the inequalities between American countries being greater than in Europe, again it is an analogy. Imagine in 25 years if NAFTA has evolved into pan-European style EU, with its open borders, freedom to work and live in any country, etc etc.
The comparison remains valid, even if you chose not to see it.
In such a case, would the US so happily relinquish so many of its treasured sovereign rites? Would not doing so render the US xenophobic and racist?
It's a legitimate question.
As for your figures, they are incorrect, and they are annual and not cumulative.
The most recent ANNUAL net migration is 330,000, not 200,000, and that figure is not cumulative over the Mastricht period.
You cannot deny that the EU started as a post-WWII association for the free trade of coal and steel required to rebuild Europe.
Within 25 years that had broadened into an overall Economic Community, and in the mid-70s the UK voted to join a "Mormon market for goods and services".
Since that time, the EU has taken on far broader roles than (a) were ever postulated, and (b) were approved by their sovereign constituencies.
Hence the analogy to NAFTA, which was only ratified in 1994 (give it another 25 years).
To your point about the inequalities between American countries being greater than in Europe, again it is an analogy. Imagine in 25 years if NAFTA has evolved into pan-European style EU, with its open borders, freedom to work and live in any country, etc etc.
The comparison remains valid, even if you chose not to see it.
In such a case, would the US so happily relinquish so many of its treasured sovereign rites? Would not doing so render the US xenophobic and racist?
It's a legitimate question.
As for your figures, they are incorrect, and they are annual and not cumulative.
The most recent ANNUAL net migration is 330,000, not 200,000, and that figure is not cumulative over the Mastricht period.
3
The countries of the EU are most economically unequal. You point out Bulgaria and Romania but didn't address the elephant in the room: Greece.
Let's take Bill's analogy one step further and include Trinidad. Now the U.S. and Trinidad have a lion share of the resources and get to be bullies or a bunch of smaller, poorer countries get to make decisions as a bloc.
The U.S. is actually at this point and has been for a while. There is constantly chatter about California breaking up in smaller "states" because they are way too big to share one identity economically, culturally, resource-wise, etc.
There are pluses to being small and nimble.
Let's take Bill's analogy one step further and include Trinidad. Now the U.S. and Trinidad have a lion share of the resources and get to be bullies or a bunch of smaller, poorer countries get to make decisions as a bloc.
The U.S. is actually at this point and has been for a while. There is constantly chatter about California breaking up in smaller "states" because they are way too big to share one identity economically, culturally, resource-wise, etc.
There are pluses to being small and nimble.
The Brexit vote simply says that the majority want to leave the EU. But, have they left yet? The divorce will only be completed when the settlement for the divorce is finalised. And both parties have to agree on the settlement terms. And that may take time.
So really, this is when the hard bargaining should start. Never mind the posturing by both sides. EU says let’s get it over quickly. The UK wants to have more time. What are the settlement terms? This is really a poker game at the stage when the players are still raising the stakes, even though not many perceive it to be so.
And if the parties haggle long enough, the ultimate solution might turn out to be not a clear cut divorce but a new way of looking at what constitutes EU membership. And several other EU members are interested in that possibility.
So really, this is when the hard bargaining should start. Never mind the posturing by both sides. EU says let’s get it over quickly. The UK wants to have more time. What are the settlement terms? This is really a poker game at the stage when the players are still raising the stakes, even though not many perceive it to be so.
And if the parties haggle long enough, the ultimate solution might turn out to be not a clear cut divorce but a new way of looking at what constitutes EU membership. And several other EU members are interested in that possibility.
6
Sadly, not true that 'the divorce will only be completed when the settlement for the divorce is finalised'. The UK will be out 2 years after Article 50, and if it hasn't managed to secure good terms, it will simply be out with no access to the single market negotiated. But yes, it might take a very long time to negotiate new trade agreements. That's the problem. We'll be forced out possibly before we have got replacement arrangements in place.
The UK can't have 'more time' and the EU isn't pressing to finish quicker. There is no choice - 2 years maximum. The EU is saying 'Start quicker' and Boris and Cameron are saying 'No need to rush into implementing the decision...'
As for the poker games - the UK holds few cards now. If the EC doesn't like something they can sit it out and watch it run out on the clock. What can the UK do? It can't revoke it's decision to stay, it has nothing to give or withhold.
The UK can't have 'more time' and the EU isn't pressing to finish quicker. There is no choice - 2 years maximum. The EU is saying 'Start quicker' and Boris and Cameron are saying 'No need to rush into implementing the decision...'
As for the poker games - the UK holds few cards now. If the EC doesn't like something they can sit it out and watch it run out on the clock. What can the UK do? It can't revoke it's decision to stay, it has nothing to give or withhold.
Very insightful, George. There will be a compromise.
I feel this is indeed tragic for the young British.
They were just robbed of European citienship, an invaluable membership that mega wealthy non-Europeans seek through mult-millions investment schemes in European coutries like Portugal, Malta and belatedely the U.K.
Makes me wonder why many of the older group voting to leave wanted to rob their grandchildren of the right to live, work and study throughout continental Europe with no strings attached?
The right to live without a decade or more of volatility?
Very sad and, in my view, selfish.
They were just robbed of European citienship, an invaluable membership that mega wealthy non-Europeans seek through mult-millions investment schemes in European coutries like Portugal, Malta and belatedely the U.K.
Makes me wonder why many of the older group voting to leave wanted to rob their grandchildren of the right to live, work and study throughout continental Europe with no strings attached?
The right to live without a decade or more of volatility?
Very sad and, in my view, selfish.
7
How about the right of their grandkids to live in an English England?
Pretty much none of your business what they want to do
Pretty much none of your business what they want to do
What a beat up. 57% of 18 to 34s wanted to stay. That's higher than the average of 48%, but it's not exactly a huge fissure.
Membership of the EU is an "experiment"? Britain's membership is more than 40 years.
Older voters harking back to the good old days? Most voters have spent their entire adult lives as EU members. The older voters being criticised have four decades of experience with the EU. They presumably voted in favour in the earlier stay referendum, which won by a huge margin. Perhaps the ongoing experience of the EU has changed their mind. Perhaps people should ask why. I thought we were supposed to value experience?
Membership of the EU is an "experiment"? Britain's membership is more than 40 years.
Older voters harking back to the good old days? Most voters have spent their entire adult lives as EU members. The older voters being criticised have four decades of experience with the EU. They presumably voted in favour in the earlier stay referendum, which won by a huge margin. Perhaps the ongoing experience of the EU has changed their mind. Perhaps people should ask why. I thought we were supposed to value experience?
10
Always treat every election as if your side is one vote short. Americans who think their vote doesn't count should pay heed to what happened in Britain. Young voters must stay involved and vote intelligently, as they will live with the impact of their vote. Drinking and crying in your beer is no substitute for actively being involved in the political process.
It will be ironic if in their attempt to make Britain great again, this vote drives Northern Ireland and Scotland away, making Britain a smaller weaker nation. As American companies reconfigure their commitment to locating in England as part of their strategy to access the E.U. employment will suffer as well.
Donald Trump supported this vote, he thinks the devalued pound will be good for his golf courses. Hillary Clinton opposed Brexit, she foresaw its impact on our economy. Voters will be able to tell who was right, the answer sheet will be on everyone's 401k statement.
Are you registered to vote yet?
It will be ironic if in their attempt to make Britain great again, this vote drives Northern Ireland and Scotland away, making Britain a smaller weaker nation. As American companies reconfigure their commitment to locating in England as part of their strategy to access the E.U. employment will suffer as well.
Donald Trump supported this vote, he thinks the devalued pound will be good for his golf courses. Hillary Clinton opposed Brexit, she foresaw its impact on our economy. Voters will be able to tell who was right, the answer sheet will be on everyone's 401k statement.
Are you registered to vote yet?
14
While it is true that more open societies can offer more opportunities, which is something youth always seeks, there is a clear cost to an open society, which often falls more heavily on the elders, particularly when that change comes too quickly and too massively. That cost is probably what drove the "Leave" vote, despite the desire of many younger Britons to have a more open society by remaining in the EU.
So long as we still have discrete national governments and borders, becoming an open society too quickly and too extensively is always going to be a problem. The sovereignty of a nation gives it the right to control what goes on within its borders. However, the experience has been that as nations have opened, they lose some of their traditional control, which is often exacerbated by the desire of "outsiders" to exert more influence and control, which is largely seen as taking over and is most unwelcome by the more established part of the nation.
We see an example of this here in Mr. Ansari's article in today's NYT where, while admitting Muslims in the US have brought a lot of baggage, he is upset because Muslims not embraced. It is the same in the UK.
While it is possible to see, some day, a world that effectively has no borders and a homogenous society through out, that day is still a long way off as Brexit shows.
So long as we still have discrete national governments and borders, becoming an open society too quickly and too extensively is always going to be a problem. The sovereignty of a nation gives it the right to control what goes on within its borders. However, the experience has been that as nations have opened, they lose some of their traditional control, which is often exacerbated by the desire of "outsiders" to exert more influence and control, which is largely seen as taking over and is most unwelcome by the more established part of the nation.
We see an example of this here in Mr. Ansari's article in today's NYT where, while admitting Muslims in the US have brought a lot of baggage, he is upset because Muslims not embraced. It is the same in the UK.
While it is possible to see, some day, a world that effectively has no borders and a homogenous society through out, that day is still a long way off as Brexit shows.
6
I hope this is yet another false polarized conflict being created by irresponsible media (the article barely mentions that many young people did vote the other way). If not, it's a sad comment on people so uninformed they imagine that others, like themselves, vote purely on immediate self-interest rather than on trying to understand a big, complex picture and attend to the good of the many.
I would not have voted for Brexit, but I can understand that the demographics of completely unregulated immigration are socially and politically unsustainable, and that letting the decisions be made ex cathedra in Brussels is undemocratic. The best case scenario is that the EU is shocked enough to democratize and develop a realistic immigration policy so that the Brits may reconsider and revote. A completely useless response is blaming someone else (older people) rather than figuring what to do next (start with voting).
I would not have voted for Brexit, but I can understand that the demographics of completely unregulated immigration are socially and politically unsustainable, and that letting the decisions be made ex cathedra in Brussels is undemocratic. The best case scenario is that the EU is shocked enough to democratize and develop a realistic immigration policy so that the Brits may reconsider and revote. A completely useless response is blaming someone else (older people) rather than figuring what to do next (start with voting).
23
The immigrants that were arriving in England were very different from the British people and had absolutely no desire to assimilate into the fabric of their society. I visited in February and experienced this myself. One of the reasons I love visiting this great country is that the people are warm and welcoming. I had many wonderful conversations with the English people but had no interaction with the immigrants. They were rather cold and unfriendly and had a sense of entitlement. They seemed to want to take over and I felt sorry for the English.
I have been visiting England for many years and it has changed drastically. It seems that England is no longer for the English but those who arrive from other countries and do want to mix and mingle. I still love England, the English and plan on returning every year. The outcome of this vote had to be to leave the EU and if I could have voted this would have been my vote. I wish my British friends all the best in their going forward.
I have been visiting England for many years and it has changed drastically. It seems that England is no longer for the English but those who arrive from other countries and do want to mix and mingle. I still love England, the English and plan on returning every year. The outcome of this vote had to be to leave the EU and if I could have voted this would have been my vote. I wish my British friends all the best in their going forward.
34
Such sweeping generalizations about whole swaths of humanity. Perhaps the Brits should not have colonized the world if they indeed wanted to remain pure and pristine on their island nation.
9
I too felt as you did last I was in England. Visiting London again after ten years of absence, I couldn't recognize the city. Especially at night.
1
Question: Did you actually seek out immigrants while you were over there, or did you just stick with your usual "warm and welcoming" English friends? Maybe the reason the immigrants felt "cold and unfriendly" to you is that your English friends have been much less than welcoming to them, and they are conditioned to see white people as less than hospitable.
The "Brexiteers" will soon discover that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a modern, vibrant economy without a relatively free flow of people from other countries. Successive waves of immigration have made the United States what it is. If your English friends have opted for living in a stagnant "Little England," without Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland, then they are also opting for irrelevance. On the other hand, once they are out of the EU, they won't have anyone to blame for their problems. As this article indicates, even among the "native" British, there are all sorts of opinions as to what Britain should look like.
The "Brexiteers" will soon discover that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a modern, vibrant economy without a relatively free flow of people from other countries. Successive waves of immigration have made the United States what it is. If your English friends have opted for living in a stagnant "Little England," without Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland, then they are also opting for irrelevance. On the other hand, once they are out of the EU, they won't have anyone to blame for their problems. As this article indicates, even among the "native" British, there are all sorts of opinions as to what Britain should look like.
The split in the vote between the young and the angry old voters in Britain is the very same as in the U.S. of A.
Il Trumpolini, despite the fact that the forthcoming referendum in the UK was already worked on since 2014 and the date of it announced by David Cameron in February this year, had no clue what the Brexit was early June when a reporter asked him about it.
And then he stands at a lectern on his Turnberry Golf Resort, and tells the Scots - who have overwhelmingly voted for Stay, that they are finally taking their country back. At the same time he gloated about the British pound falling like a rock, because that would bring more golfers to Turnberry.
That sounds eerily like his remark hoping for the housing market to collapse because he could buy low and make gazillions of money.
The United Kingdom will also collapse, since Scotland already wants to hold another referendum of becoming independent, and N. Ireland has declared wanting to join Ireland proper in order to stay in the European Union.
Far too many commenters here and in the comment section of other articles about the Brexit have drunk the kool-aid of 'take your country back' without having any understanding of the severe and long term damage this ultra-right-wing nationalism will cause, both in Europe and possibly on our shores should we, heavens forbid, have a president named Herr Drumf.
Il Trumpolini, despite the fact that the forthcoming referendum in the UK was already worked on since 2014 and the date of it announced by David Cameron in February this year, had no clue what the Brexit was early June when a reporter asked him about it.
And then he stands at a lectern on his Turnberry Golf Resort, and tells the Scots - who have overwhelmingly voted for Stay, that they are finally taking their country back. At the same time he gloated about the British pound falling like a rock, because that would bring more golfers to Turnberry.
That sounds eerily like his remark hoping for the housing market to collapse because he could buy low and make gazillions of money.
The United Kingdom will also collapse, since Scotland already wants to hold another referendum of becoming independent, and N. Ireland has declared wanting to join Ireland proper in order to stay in the European Union.
Far too many commenters here and in the comment section of other articles about the Brexit have drunk the kool-aid of 'take your country back' without having any understanding of the severe and long term damage this ultra-right-wing nationalism will cause, both in Europe and possibly on our shores should we, heavens forbid, have a president named Herr Drumf.
28
"Il Trumpolini": That is the funniest thing I have heard so far. Love it. Kudos to you...
6
You and too many others have been willing to give up our self determination and freedoms for what you see as financial gain. You are ruled by the fear of being independent and have drunk the kool-aid that we can only be successful if we throw in with the others. That type of diversity only brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator which is an intrusive socialist nanny state. This vote puts a stake in the heart of the borderless world concept. We want self rule, the ability to control our culture and not be forced to take in the rabble from the middle east and elsewhere without question just because some nutter in Brussels thinks it is a good idea!
9
@ Strongbow, Brussels does not, repeat does not decide the number refugees taken into any of the EU countries during the terrible refugee crisis in the Middle East, or Near East as it is called in Europe.
Germany took the vast majority of Syrian refugees of any country, while the UK took hardly any.
The individual governments decide policies like that all by themselves.
Unfortunately far too many commenters are completely unaware of facts, and have no clue what happens both in their own and other countries. And it seems you fit that group to a T.
Germany took the vast majority of Syrian refugees of any country, while the UK took hardly any.
The individual governments decide policies like that all by themselves.
Unfortunately far too many commenters are completely unaware of facts, and have no clue what happens both in their own and other countries. And it seems you fit that group to a T.
8
My husband and I (early 30s) are distraught. As a British citizen, he voted Remain; as an American in the UK on a residence permit, I was not allowed to vote. The feeling in London is one of anxiety and dread - and total shock - and we fear this anxiety will last for many months, if not years, as the torturous process of leaving the EU begins. What so many people seem not to have grasped until yesterday is that this vote was far more than a simple leaving the EU (and was never about "getting back control" - not seriously, anyway - it was ruled almost entirely by party politics and xenophobia). For anyone who really thought it through, a Leave decision was almost inevitably going to trigger the break up of the United Kingdom and, very possibly, the beginning of the end of Europe as we know it. A devastating result, a choice for insecurity, intolerance, isolation, and insignificance.
246
London is an island within an island. As the referendum results show, London is divorced from the feelings of most of England and Wales.
Xenophobia is a very harsh description of people who only want their government to take care of their own as much as they are obliged to take care of EU citizens.
Xenophobia is a very harsh description of people who only want their government to take care of their own as much as they are obliged to take care of EU citizens.
13
You seem to have too high a respect for Great Britain. Britain is not what she once was, and Europe may not be what it was when the UK was part of it. But Europe will survive and move on, and so will "not so great", Great Britain.
3
One thing I have been wondering is what kind of info was available to the British electorate during the campaign -- in particular from supposedly good resources like the BBC. It seems the some people didn't realize the full consequences of a leave vote -- including EU funding for many UK projects, like universities; possible actions that will be taken by Scotland and Northern Ireland to ensure they can remain in the UK, and on an on. Nobody was talking about these issues?
Many people in U.S. states have the same feelings about faraway Washington that British people who voted for Brexit have about the EU. Why should we be ruled by faraway elites, both say, who step all over our laws and our rights? And so each yearns for independence, only to learn later on that it doesn't have the economic strength to stand on its own. Secessionitis is a crippling disease.
14
I am half Scottish and hold dual nationality (US and UK). One of the amazing things about having the British passport is that it is basically a ticket to the world. It was an all access pass to any of the truly incredible 28 countries within the European Union. No visas. No red tape. No hassle. Just flash the passport at customs and that country would be my new home for however long I wanted.
I have met so many amazing people from the European countries while travelling through the UK and Europe. I got the sense that times are tough but we're all in it together. The leave vote makes the UK look selfish.
In any regard it is really depressing that this realm of opportunity has now been taken away by the vote to leave. Those golden letters 'EUROPEAN UNION' are about to be erased from the front of my passport and for no other reason than short sighted frustration.
I think this is going to negatively affect a lot of young people who aspire to travel and broaden their horizons. It will also make us more unwelcome in Europe in the future, sort of like the black sheep of the family who turned his back on everyone in a time of trouble.
And Scotland will leave now. This will happen, guaranteed. The neigh-sayers in England who shouted down Scottish Independence the first time around have now been exposed as complete hypocrites.
I have met so many amazing people from the European countries while travelling through the UK and Europe. I got the sense that times are tough but we're all in it together. The leave vote makes the UK look selfish.
In any regard it is really depressing that this realm of opportunity has now been taken away by the vote to leave. Those golden letters 'EUROPEAN UNION' are about to be erased from the front of my passport and for no other reason than short sighted frustration.
I think this is going to negatively affect a lot of young people who aspire to travel and broaden their horizons. It will also make us more unwelcome in Europe in the future, sort of like the black sheep of the family who turned his back on everyone in a time of trouble.
And Scotland will leave now. This will happen, guaranteed. The neigh-sayers in England who shouted down Scottish Independence the first time around have now been exposed as complete hypocrites.
117
Hopefully Scotland will make its move soon to remain in the EU. And Northern Ireland. Perhaps a good time to reunite with Ireland, that would be the simplest solution for them. Wales may be too small for anyone to care.
2
A lot of Americans appear to be misinformed with their accusations of xenophobia and racism aimed towards the British people. Nobody from other EU countries who has settled in Britain is going to be asked to leave, and they're not going to be rounded up and put into ghettos. However, there has been a large number of undesirable people who have been convicted of very serious crimes including rape and murder in other EU countries who have been allowed to enter Britain unchecked due to the open border policy introduced by Brussels. Many of these offenders only come to light when the offences are repeated in Britain. What will happen now is that we will go back to having tighter border control and visa access where necessary. Very much in line with the requirements to enter the USA, with a special arrangement being negotiated with the Republic of Ireland. The same as the USA has with Canada. If that makes the British a Country of xenophobic racists, what does that make the people of the USA ?
35
the US is a union of fifty states without border controls. Looks like England will be one state, separated from the rest of Europe, even the rest of Britain. Some criminals won't come, some won't go. If the problem was that other European states didn't inform you of the criminal records of some of their residents, there's a solution for that. Our states keep one another informed. That's what I would suggest. Not secession.
3
The EU was created for much more than just open borders and I am pretty sure English people commit crimes, too. I hope you did not make the decision based solely on non-English people commiting crimes, rather than accounting for the myriad other economic and social consequences.
3
How can you be so sure European settlers in the UK won't be asked to leave? What if UK settlers in Europe are kicked out?
As an American citizen, it's not so simple as you suggest to resettle to Canada. I'd be allowed to stay up to 6 months visa free after which time I'd have to apply for a visa, which might or might not be granted. Most likely I'd have to have secured a job or be a student.
In striking contrast, as a German (dual) citizen, I can live anywhere in Europe my heart desires with no absolutely no strings attached!
Shame I now have to cross off the UK, though lucky I was already able to spend a year in lovely Northern Wales.
As an American citizen, it's not so simple as you suggest to resettle to Canada. I'd be allowed to stay up to 6 months visa free after which time I'd have to apply for a visa, which might or might not be granted. Most likely I'd have to have secured a job or be a student.
In striking contrast, as a German (dual) citizen, I can live anywhere in Europe my heart desires with no absolutely no strings attached!
Shame I now have to cross off the UK, though lucky I was already able to spend a year in lovely Northern Wales.
8
I was given the chance to meet and know quite a number of Brits of middle and old ages. While I took and interest in history and happened to know quite a bit about British history, which impresses the Brits, I would say that the most salient feeling I have about how the Brits see themselves and interact with "others" is a meme that is redolent in cultural superiority, quite oftenly tinged with pomposity and subtle disrespect for the lesser humans which, I presume, many Brits consider their birthright. Only that this is a sign of nostalgia for an imperial past, coupled with a selective memory for what is great (while the crimes are laboriously wiped under the rug by a complex of institutional players) is what sheds light on the very essence of the situation. The old Britain - Great Britania - has ceased to exist, but not in the hearts of the old Brits, who are thusly condemning their own history to an ignominious end, which, without a doubt, will usher in a sense of shame, which has already started. Hopefully a new country will arise from these ashes, a diminished one, an England that will have plenty of stories to tell, and yet will leran to appreciate and respect "the others".
23
What's the surprise? The inability of EU countries to effectively share information about the influx of terrorists, who have successfully wraiught havoc in France, and previously in the USA on 9/11, would have been enough reason for Brexit to succeed. That working class Britons feel threatened economically by an open influx of immigrants, is the straw that broke the "remain" back.
I'm not surprised, and it's not the end of the world.
I'm not surprised, and it's not the end of the world.
25
fear is a really stupid reason to vote to try and insulate yourself from the world. The kids have it right, the oldr folks have it wrong. The Trumpettes have allowed fear of the world to take over their lives and want to withdraw from the world. These are the same idiots who gave us WWII and will probably give us a major conflict with China since they want to withdraw and hide behind their "strong" daddy figure
When I first heard about the divide in the vote between the young and the old in the UK, the first thing I thought of was how similar it is to how the young and the old were divided on Bernie Sanders' views. Young people in the US and UK (and us slight older folks) have similar worries about education, housing, healthcare it seems and the same optimism about mingling and integrating with other cultures compared to our older citizens.
6
"mingling of cultures" is of course wonderful and desirable. Unfortunately the whole of Europe is becoming subsumed. Hardly a mingling but a wholesale tsunami of Middle-Eastern and African Immigration vastly Muslim in nature. Very liberal Europe will take a stake through its heart it if the tide is not stemmed. The UK has taken a stand and other EU countries must follow suit to survive. Britain has done us all a very painful favor. In the West we are a vastly tolerant society, but tolerance is a two way street. We must require that immigrants share those values and we are failing!
6
The UK Edition of The Guardian for 6/25 has an article stating that a petition is being circulated to have a 2nd referendum, sort of a do over changing the percentages required to make a vote the majority. So far there are i/2 million signatures collected ( more by now). So they want a do over until they get the right answer. Also the young ones didn't bother to show up in great numbers to vote, but have done so to protest and complain.
9
Perhaps it was too easy for disgruntled Brits to upset the EU applecart. In the US, citizens do not get to vote on Federal constitutional amendments and the bar for House, Senate and State legislature approval is set very high. There is something to be said for stability.
4
The referendum was advisory, not binding. It's clear that a do-over might yield more accurate advice. What are you afraid of? that the majority might really be against Brexit?
Many in the under-twenty five crowd didn't vote, I keep reading, because they "aren't into voting". How convenient. They opposed BREXIT but didn't bother to mark a ballot.
They have only themselves to blame for the debacle about to crash down and crush their lives, Prime Minister Boris Johnson not the least of it.
They have only themselves to blame for the debacle about to crash down and crush their lives, Prime Minister Boris Johnson not the least of it.
25
temper tantrums by social media glutted know-nothings
crying baristas? why? can she even articulate a position other than the libelous bleat "prejudice!"?
crying baristas? why? can she even articulate a position other than the libelous bleat "prejudice!"?
33
Are you sure? She was being quoted in a news article. This seems to be the sum total of what you have to say. If you're a snowbird, be glad Florida doesn't have passport controls separating it from other states.
2
The snowbirds leave the northern states for 6 months and one day to avoid taxes. Then they return when they are old and sick so the northern states will take care of them. Works out great for them.
1
Its important to keep in mind the European Union was an effort to bring Europe the relative stability and economic benefits that have long been a key factor in the success of the United States. Having free trade, common laws, and shared identity across all of the states making up the United States have been critical to its economic vitality. It is not just the model for the European Union but also for many of the most important international trade efforts. Whether it is between states or nations, when you lower barriers to trade, travel, and communications combined with shared purpose people prosper and the world becomes a safer, better place for all.
It is not surprising this is an ideal and hope for younger people while for older people the threat of change can be frightening.
Analysts seem to have missed the point that to follow the logic of Trump's support for Brexit means Trump supports the destruction of the United States union and the very experiment that has driven the nation for more then250 years. It is nothing less then an all out war against the very essence of what America is: "We the People, in order to form a more perfect union..."
When you consider the Republican Party has actually been trying to destroy the union ever since it became the Party of the Old Civil War South under the Southern Strategy of Goldwater, Nixon, and Reagan this is really not very surprising.
Brexit drove a knife into the hopes of Europe and Trump is trying to do it to America.
It is not surprising this is an ideal and hope for younger people while for older people the threat of change can be frightening.
Analysts seem to have missed the point that to follow the logic of Trump's support for Brexit means Trump supports the destruction of the United States union and the very experiment that has driven the nation for more then250 years. It is nothing less then an all out war against the very essence of what America is: "We the People, in order to form a more perfect union..."
When you consider the Republican Party has actually been trying to destroy the union ever since it became the Party of the Old Civil War South under the Southern Strategy of Goldwater, Nixon, and Reagan this is really not very surprising.
Brexit drove a knife into the hopes of Europe and Trump is trying to do it to America.
47
How on earth would Donald Trump be able to "destroy the union"?
The President completely lacks those powers. And we decided 150 years, with the Civil War, that no state can simply just "leave" the union (say, out of pique that the candidate they preferred did not get elected).
The President completely lacks those powers. And we decided 150 years, with the Civil War, that no state can simply just "leave" the union (say, out of pique that the candidate they preferred did not get elected).
1
Trump supports the destruction of the United States? Wha?
Your Buddy Obama has been the most divisive president in history. He consistently ignores laws that don't feed his narrative, always blames others for his failures, apologizes for what is left of America's strengths, and when all else fails, whips out the race card and plays it to the hilt.
If you don't like Trump, consider the fact that Obama pretty much paved the way for a bombastic flame thrower who relishes in taking on the Obama-slobbering media, actually roots for America and is not ashamed of it, gives a damn about the American worker, and as far as I know, doesn't use private servers whose entire contents are likely in the hands of Russia, China and God knows who else. Your candidate Queen's tiara comes with a lot of rust.
Your Buddy Obama has been the most divisive president in history. He consistently ignores laws that don't feed his narrative, always blames others for his failures, apologizes for what is left of America's strengths, and when all else fails, whips out the race card and plays it to the hilt.
If you don't like Trump, consider the fact that Obama pretty much paved the way for a bombastic flame thrower who relishes in taking on the Obama-slobbering media, actually roots for America and is not ashamed of it, gives a damn about the American worker, and as far as I know, doesn't use private servers whose entire contents are likely in the hands of Russia, China and God knows who else. Your candidate Queen's tiara comes with a lot of rust.
These young Britons sound like all they care about is their own job prospects, and, to a lesser degree, study-abroad opportunities.
They remind of the American "yuppies" of the 1980s, rather than the Occupy Wall Street movement or the environmental uprising among American youth of the 1990s.
Maybe, unlike their elders, they don't understand how much has been lost to globalization. They also remind me of young American technology-struck fan kids who say things like "Privacy is dead, it's all good," just because our corporate-owned government has recently failed to enforce existing laws prohibiting things like harassment, threats of imminent physical violence and the publication of a person's photo without obtaining advance consent.
They remind of the American "yuppies" of the 1980s, rather than the Occupy Wall Street movement or the environmental uprising among American youth of the 1990s.
Maybe, unlike their elders, they don't understand how much has been lost to globalization. They also remind me of young American technology-struck fan kids who say things like "Privacy is dead, it's all good," just because our corporate-owned government has recently failed to enforce existing laws prohibiting things like harassment, threats of imminent physical violence and the publication of a person's photo without obtaining advance consent.
13
Globalization is the inevitable result of modern transportation and communication. You can no more stop globalization than you can go back to live in a time as it was before electricity, cars, and telephones. To be sure some things are lost, but much is also gained. But in any case, you can either learn how to live with it or die out like the dinosaurs.
2
Ultimately we all care about our own job prospects first and foremost
This is a lot of nothing.
The World is not ending and the Brit's will be fine.
I have shoes older than the EU.
The World is not ending and the Brit's will be fine.
I have shoes older than the EU.
19
“A lot of the older generation rely on newspapers for all their facts and don’t actually do any of their own research unlike my generation.” Imagine that? The old folks waste time reading newspapers - while the young "research" news from Twitter, Facebook, etc. you know - sources of the real news. One hopes this isn't true of most young - but having observed American youth with faces buried into their smart phones - it's probably the norm.
If so then just as with American youth - British youth are woefully ignorant. Take some time to discuss history, politics, finance, science, geography, etc. with a young person and you'll be quickly dismayed about how little their knowledge extends beyond the most superficial. The saddest part? They don't care and won't make any effort to learn more because "that" would take time from their phones.
If so then just as with American youth - British youth are woefully ignorant. Take some time to discuss history, politics, finance, science, geography, etc. with a young person and you'll be quickly dismayed about how little their knowledge extends beyond the most superficial. The saddest part? They don't care and won't make any effort to learn more because "that" would take time from their phones.
21
You do them an injustice. The young are looking towards the future. They want a future, with careers. The young are raised to be part of the global world. It doesn't mean they don't know and respect their own national history. It just means they aren't looking backwards, for ahead.
Much has been made of the racism and xenophobia without understanding the population facts. England (2015 figures) has a population density higher than any other sizable country in Europe (415 people / sq km - for comparison the USA has a density of 33!) Noticeable that Scotland has a density of just 67, hence their different attitude.
The UK has seen a NET rise in population of over 300,000 every year for maybe the last decade. By contrast Germany's population is declining and most other Euro zone countries see their population hardly change.
So we go to the EU and ask to be allowed to put sensible limits on further immigration and basically get shown the door. This isn't about racism or xenophobia or hating our fellow Europeans, this is simply about slowing down immigration to manageable levels to avoid putting the fear of God in to half the population. Allow us to cap NET immigration to 200k (far more than all but one other country in Europe receives) and we'd be a happy member of the EU. Instead we get: "No, immigration must be unrestricted". As usual, politicians ignore the people and the population revolts!
The UK has seen a NET rise in population of over 300,000 every year for maybe the last decade. By contrast Germany's population is declining and most other Euro zone countries see their population hardly change.
So we go to the EU and ask to be allowed to put sensible limits on further immigration and basically get shown the door. This isn't about racism or xenophobia or hating our fellow Europeans, this is simply about slowing down immigration to manageable levels to avoid putting the fear of God in to half the population. Allow us to cap NET immigration to 200k (far more than all but one other country in Europe receives) and we'd be a happy member of the EU. Instead we get: "No, immigration must be unrestricted". As usual, politicians ignore the people and the population revolts!
45
I love England but it already seemed extremely over-crowded to me when I was last there in 2003. Canada and the US would never permit uncontrolled immigration like you are being forced to from the EU. I am extremely happy you voted to leave the EU! It seems totally undemocratic. The fact that they are talking about making it particularly difficult for you to leave so other nations will be dissuaded from referendums is proof they think people in other nations want to vote to get out.
5
This is a disaster for future UK generations. Being Britons they had the best of both worlds, being English speakers, having access to a huge market in Europe and by extension to the USA, they were in an extraordinary position in the check board, they controlled the center. But their elders have decided to sever those ties and move the UK to the sides of power and history and future generations of young British men and woman will suffer for it.
I hope Scotland stays with Europe. I hope Northern Ireland stays with Europe. Europe is a tough project, Brussels needs to be democratised and they have to pay attention to the mounting resentment towards their callous regulations, but Europe must present a United front. We must continue to fight for a better Europe for all, because that means a better world for all.
I hope Scotland stays with Europe. I hope Northern Ireland stays with Europe. Europe is a tough project, Brussels needs to be democratised and they have to pay attention to the mounting resentment towards their callous regulations, but Europe must present a United front. We must continue to fight for a better Europe for all, because that means a better world for all.
25
The big difference between young British and their parents is especially how they get their information. The older generation is reading the Sun while the young are on the Internet. You notice it, when you ask someone why he is for or against. The younger, well-informed goes to argue his case, the older generation will be over with a stories over yesteryears, the Blitz and bananas may no longer sold crooked. Some had the feeling that this was a soccer-game and of course they supported England !!
Further on is stricking the total absence of a plan now that there is a Brexit !!! Even geniuses like Boris don't know just what to do now ??!!
I only hope that in Brussels they do not only look at the tabloid, false-informed older generation but also remember that there is a younger generation that feels European and British.
Perhaps this is the time to re-apply for a referendum. Give our youth a chance to convince their parents that this is not a vote against the esteblisment but above all a vote against their future.
Further on is stricking the total absence of a plan now that there is a Brexit !!! Even geniuses like Boris don't know just what to do now ??!!
I only hope that in Brussels they do not only look at the tabloid, false-informed older generation but also remember that there is a younger generation that feels European and British.
Perhaps this is the time to re-apply for a referendum. Give our youth a chance to convince their parents that this is not a vote against the esteblisment but above all a vote against their future.
18
So well informed by the internet, so electronically connected, snapchatting the day away, yet they didn't get that important text to actually vote! Somehow those older Sun readers voted in nearly twice the numbers.
5
The ignorant and bigoted young people who live their lives around their handheld masters are less educated about the real world than any of their recent ancestors, so all they know is that government must be huge and controlling.
Of course they are frightened by the idea of independence and individuals making their own decisions, but that will pass as they read and learn.
Apparently, some of them have already forgotten healthy posture habits. But adults get tired of distant bureaucrats deciding things affecting their lives, and these snowflakes will eventually wise up.
NOTICE that liberals see liberal victories as overwhelming landslides no matter the margin of victory while wins by their opponents are scrutinized as slip-ups by small share of voters due to their lack of Niceness or Education.
Of course they are frightened by the idea of independence and individuals making their own decisions, but that will pass as they read and learn.
Apparently, some of them have already forgotten healthy posture habits. But adults get tired of distant bureaucrats deciding things affecting their lives, and these snowflakes will eventually wise up.
NOTICE that liberals see liberal victories as overwhelming landslides no matter the margin of victory while wins by their opponents are scrutinized as slip-ups by small share of voters due to their lack of Niceness or Education.
13
This comment is extremely astute. The people interviewed seem to have no clue that Brexit is a response to an EU that has become as undemocratic as Thatcher always said it would. The EU as it exists today is a relic of a Cold War era that has now passed. It is no longer fit for the job of ensuring peace and prosperity in Europe. I realize these young people interviewed are young, with all the wonderful flaws of youth. But fact-based analysis sometimes does help. They should try being young in Greece or Spain.
I look forward to the changes that the EU will now introduce being brought to popular vote across all the nations of Europe, as of course it would be unthinkable that the EU would not allow the people of Europe to decide the future course of their governance. Right?
I look forward to the changes that the EU will now introduce being brought to popular vote across all the nations of Europe, as of course it would be unthinkable that the EU would not allow the people of Europe to decide the future course of their governance. Right?
7
When something doesn't work the way it should you have two choices. The first is to spend the time and effort necessary to fix it; the second is to throw it away.
1
I think you have it wrong, it is the fear of the world that drove the Brexit vote, fear of others and fear of the world. The withdrawal from the world will be regretted over the next couple of decades when the butchers bill comes due for the isolationism
1
If a large segment of British young adults seek jobs in the EU while they still can and hope to be grandfathered in as permanent residents in another nation, the UK will wither and die away. If I were a young Brit I would first try to find work in Ireland which remains in the EU, or Scotland which is now almost certain to leave the UK in order to join the EU. Those fluent in a second European language will have the best opportunities on the European continent.
14
What do young people know? They're still filled with idealism, reality will hit them soon.
7
No, in this case reality is going to hit the people who voted for Brexit....and when it hits them, it is really going to hurt.
2
Pretty sad reading these comments and the attitudes and divisions between people in Britain. And isn't that the way it has become all around the world? Division and conflict. Disrespect. More people talking about what 'they' think and not listening to the point of view of those who disagree with them. There is not one point of view in the world. There is not 'one' experience, but many. And is that what some of you are trying to do, create one point of view?
To hear some of you talk, you'd think there was no reason why this vote succeeded. That the experience of being part of EU did not create problems. Who in the EU is satisfied with their experience? And why are some not satisfied? Or do those of you complaining about Brexit, not care about those who are dissatisfied and unhappy? Respect the right of those who voted for something you disagree with. And it's too bad that you have evidently not taken the time to at least understand their point of view.
To hear some of you talk, you'd think there was no reason why this vote succeeded. That the experience of being part of EU did not create problems. Who in the EU is satisfied with their experience? And why are some not satisfied? Or do those of you complaining about Brexit, not care about those who are dissatisfied and unhappy? Respect the right of those who voted for something you disagree with. And it's too bad that you have evidently not taken the time to at least understand their point of view.
105
While I think I would have voted to stay if I were British, I have to say I found some of the concerns I heard from small businesspeople outside London very compelling. I saw an interview on The News Hour the other day with a woman who, as best as I can recall, raised something like organic turkeys in East Anglia and was talking about how onersome the EU regulations on how she can slaughter them are. I have heard this before from other small agricultural-related business owners in the EU. They operate for years under national rules and have had no problems, then these EU regulations come into effect that they believe threaten their ability to earn a living.
1
There will always be differences in opinions, some want to stay, some want out. That's PRECISELY what this referendum is for, one person one vote, and the people have spoken. That's what democracy is all about. There is no point focusing on just the negative aspects, and there isn't disrespect, as I see it. Either you win the referendum, or you don't. Either way, you forge your way ahead.
Europe will not and cannot afford to ditch UK. Afterall UK is among the most dynamic economy in Europe. (Even the refugees understand this.) For all the petulance from folks like Hollande, they are really the ones who are running scare.
Europe will not and cannot afford to ditch UK. Afterall UK is among the most dynamic economy in Europe. (Even the refugees understand this.) For all the petulance from folks like Hollande, they are really the ones who are running scare.
2
It seems to me that the younger people in Britain didn't really understand what they were giving up by accepting the EU. My hat's off to the older and wiser crowd. In my opinion, they saved their homeland from unwanted interference and absolute ruin. The bandits pushing for their New World Order must be livid. The rest of the World should be paying attention.
70
What where they giving up by being Britons in the EU? Nothing. Try retained their national identity. history and even their flags and anthem. What EU gave them was access to a global economy. I know globalization isn't easy, and I know that too many were left out of the global economy and that needs to be addressed. But taking away these kids futures in anger of being left out yourself was a mean and vicious thing to do.
3
I certainly hope that the other European countries pay attention to this reaction - in France, young people already are in the streets over labor reform that they feel is detrimental to their future prospects. They are the European generation - and it seems likely that this Brexit vote will be reversed in future as they come into professional, economic and political maturity. I also hope that this will be a wake-up call to young Europeans everywhere to VOTE, to engage in the political process - because it will happen with or without them, but they will all suffer (or benefit from) the consequences of political decisions. Politics may not be very "sexy" - it's just essential.
16
This is exactly why I've tried to teach my teenage children the importance of being active in politics. If you don't get together with your peers and make your voices heard, you can get run over by people my age who no longer believe in hope; the ones who give in to the idea they can turn back time.
While those of us on the left love to blame conservatives, the fact is that people on my side of the political fence also try to turn back the clock. Not only do such efforts routinely fail, they ignore all those who haven't yet grown into adulthood and stifle their voices.
What does the younger generation in Great Britain have to look forward to in the next decade? No one knows, yet the older generation felt empowered to choose for all. We need to do far better in getting all voices involved.
While those of us on the left love to blame conservatives, the fact is that people on my side of the political fence also try to turn back the clock. Not only do such efforts routinely fail, they ignore all those who haven't yet grown into adulthood and stifle their voices.
What does the younger generation in Great Britain have to look forward to in the next decade? No one knows, yet the older generation felt empowered to choose for all. We need to do far better in getting all voices involved.
27
The 18-24 year-olds had the opportunity to choose for themselves and not have older folks choose for them. Yet only 43% of them voted. 78% of older people voted. Huge gap. The kids could have determined the outcome, if only they had marked that X with their pencil.
3
Briton sees themselves being overrun with young Middle eastern Muslim males in their 20s while the leadership says "nothing to see here." Countries are made up borders language and culture and the Brits see all three under attack as do many Americans. Many on this planet including myself are tired of seeing millions sneak in and immediately sign up for all types of government assistance. Everyone knows that this is unsustainable. Instead of defending America's borders Mr. Obama has flung open the doors with his "catch and release" immigration policies and making up his own laws. As Briton has spoken so will America!
20
I get very tired hearing remarks from people who are ignorant of the facts. The Obama administration has deported more illegal immigrants than any of his predecessors. In fact illegal immigration into the U.S. today is at its lowest level in 40 years. To make a statement like.... "Instead of defending America's borders Mr. Obama has flung open the doors"....is a total fabrication. So what is your real motive for making things up?
3
Mid-Easterns need visas to get into UK, and UK is not even part of Schengen agreement like some non-EU countries like Norway and Switzerland... so Brexit is not going to fix it... I think the anti-migrant crowd was more worried with Eastern Europeans than anything else.
It's a sad reality. Old people, who won't be around too much longer, make terrible decisions affecting the young. like sending them to war. or choosing Hillary over Bernie.
11
This is a horrible statement. Firstly, these older voters presumably voted in the 1975 referendum to stay, which won by a huge margin. They have apparently changed their mind. Secondly, and touching on that point, unlike 18 year olds, older voters have up to 40 years experience of EU membership. Why is this experience not valued?
4
Realize that "making terrible decisions" is just your opinion. Every citizen has the right to vote based on their opinions too. I am 65 years old and intend to be around for a while so I will vote based on what's best for me.
2
Those "old" people are the only reason even Britain exists and isn't speaking German. You know absolutely nothing about history. Please refrain from inane comments until you read some history.
They won another great victory.
They won another great victory.
While, at first, England might face a rocky financial road, this is actually a great victory for democracy. There is no downside to self-determination. England can now control its borders and create sensible, humane immigration laws and trade agreements that are in the best interest of the British people.
Would you want to live in a country like England, where, in order to deport a terrorist, the British government had to ask a court in Brussels for permission? (The answer was no.)
Yeah, me neither.
Would you want to live in a country like England, where, in order to deport a terrorist, the British government had to ask a court in Brussels for permission? (The answer was no.)
Yeah, me neither.
38
And now apparently majority of younger Britons will have to leave Britain if they want a career as many international and national corporations will have to scale back their work force. But their mums and dads will be waving the flag when those kids come home every couple years for the holidays.
2
It's time for politicians and wealthy "global citizens" to realize that national and cultural identities are important to the bottom half. It's not racism, it's heritage and it gives life a sense of richness and depth. The push towards globalization has left people feeling rootless in their own countries, and the promised economic benefits that were to outweigh this change have never come.
257
I agree with the importance of culture and heritage in everyone's life. I disagree that they are only important for the bottom half. I also disagree that globalism is only driven by economy. I strongly disagree that one cannot be global in outlook while remembering and respecting our own cultures. I disagree absolutely that it is not vital that people with different cultural backgrounds cannot and should not learn to live closely. Having confidence in our own background while accepting differences is the right way forward for the world. Making decision based on fear is always a mistake.
6
I feel the same as Johannes. When you see the list of benefits of the EU the focus is on multinational business. Trade, money, labor, all without borders, and much of it good. But it requires real balance.
Our narratives, our stories, are what we pin our ideals to. Cultural identities are our context as human beings. This seemed to have been relegated to the bottom of the list when It should have been first on the list.
Because the EU was mostly about global corporations, we lost ourselves. Contrary to what our Supreme Court says, corporations are not people. And, when we lose the feeling of our identity, we fall victim to being exploited.
Our narratives, our stories, are what we pin our ideals to. Cultural identities are our context as human beings. This seemed to have been relegated to the bottom of the list when It should have been first on the list.
Because the EU was mostly about global corporations, we lost ourselves. Contrary to what our Supreme Court says, corporations are not people. And, when we lose the feeling of our identity, we fall victim to being exploited.
Just because it's heritage doesn't mean it's not racism or that the richness and depth you cite aren't based on a sense of superiority over "them." Human beings seem wired to be clannish; sticking with our clans has been protective over the millennia. We also have the capacity to reason and to see that, as humans, we have more in common with each other than our fears would like for us to have. It would be a relief to see reason prevail over fear for a change.
As a Californian long working on the Continent, my advice to the young in GB is "get to work", in the sense of maintaining & developing your global contacts & income. The economic winners, like China & Germany & America, have shown the way, regardless of what older generations want. After all, you the young will be supporting the health care & retirements of most of your parents & grandparents. You also have the possibility of an enriched life by blending your Britishness with the world around you. You have no option, my friends.
19
Wow! Such idiocy!
Im 57 James, and I've been working and paying taxes since the age of 16.
Thats 41 years James.
Throughout those years, a lot of people have benefited from health care, young and old, children as well as the elderly, 20 year olds stricken with cancer....
Get it?
Im 57 James, and I've been working and paying taxes since the age of 16.
Thats 41 years James.
Throughout those years, a lot of people have benefited from health care, young and old, children as well as the elderly, 20 year olds stricken with cancer....
Get it?
1
In other words, be British. Accept the 'no option' reality and make the absolute best of it, through hard work and sheer strength of will, survive, and prosper. A thoroughly British characteristic...a characteristic "older generations" are so keen on preserving.
1
There are already signs of buyer's remorse. Many older white voters had no clear idea of the economic impact of the Leave decision. The pound is falling, markets are crashing, companies are planning to leave the UK, Scotland is raising the specter of another separation vote.
ABC News reports that so many users are signing a petition for a re-run of Britain's referendum on European Union membership that they've crashed the House of Commons website hosting the document.
Britain's right wing press fanned the flames of the Leave vote, supported by low education, lower income older white people. They have shot themselves in the foot.
The best hope for Britain is its youth and the diverse population of immigrants who have come to the UK from around the world.
ABC News reports that so many users are signing a petition for a re-run of Britain's referendum on European Union membership that they've crashed the House of Commons website hosting the document.
Britain's right wing press fanned the flames of the Leave vote, supported by low education, lower income older white people. They have shot themselves in the foot.
The best hope for Britain is its youth and the diverse population of immigrants who have come to the UK from around the world.
22
Checkout the map where the re-run petitioners live. No surprises where. We must admit that re-running referendums that have the "wrong" result is a splendid EU method but I can't see it flying this time. The winning margin was > 1m voters in a high turnout. Scotland, which has a small population, can't afford independence with the oil price where it is, so I think we can park that. The pound has crashed, although to manufacturing and low-skilled workers that's actually not a bad thing: the fact that skiing holidays in France are more expensive won't bother them as much as manufacturing job increases will cheer them, if the lower pound is sustained. The massive UK education and tourism industry, which are also good employers, won't be too distraught either.
4
The folly of youth and the wisdom of age. We vote according to what we think not what someone else thinks. This shows that a lot of young people don't appear to understand the principles behind a referendum.
12
They clearly understand. However the young will have to live with the consequences of the decision for much longer.
1
No, sadly, it shows that the Leave voters were only looking backwards with no eye to the future for their children and grandchildren. Turns out most of the 45+ voters got their information from print news, which were not quite forthcoming with the facts, just sloganism and mis-information. You definitely voted on what someone else wanted you to think.
1
The wisdom of old age?
For sure a few. However the reality is the old have brains that's are atrophying on a daily basis. Millions of neurons lost, everyday. That's just how life goes. Suggest you visit a nursing home, or long term care facility, and see "the wisdom of age" at work. Lives are shattered at the end, It will break your heart, the effect of aging on ones brain and dignity.
I'm one of those "seniors" myself, and can assure you, would much rather have the youth running the show than aging boomers like me, that's not even up for debate. That's just science.
For sure a few. However the reality is the old have brains that's are atrophying on a daily basis. Millions of neurons lost, everyday. That's just how life goes. Suggest you visit a nursing home, or long term care facility, and see "the wisdom of age" at work. Lives are shattered at the end, It will break your heart, the effect of aging on ones brain and dignity.
I'm one of those "seniors" myself, and can assure you, would much rather have the youth running the show than aging boomers like me, that's not even up for debate. That's just science.
How dare these younger British voters question the motivation of that class of older citizens which rebuilt Britain following WW II.
The whining emanating from them is so typical of the "me" generation.
Welcome to true democracy action people.......
The whining emanating from them is so typical of the "me" generation.
Welcome to true democracy action people.......
24
We need to live in the present and look towards the future. The heroic Britain of WW II is 70 years past. Most of the participants are dead or almost dead. Their vision for the 21st century is no longer relevant, and they have stolen a great deal of opportunity from their grandchildren and great grandchildren. I question who is selfish here.
2
Yes the same generation that won't be around for much longer but is making decisions with consequences that will outlive them.
3
These young Brits are not whining (or whinging as the British say). They are upset that their opportunities for study and paid work have just been severely curtailed. The world they live in is not Britain after WWII; it is Britain in the 21st century. Castigating them for recognizing that the rules have changed is like criticiting the WWII generation for not wearing corsets and mutton chop whiskers. It is unreasonable to expect the young to live in the past.
4
Very unfortunate.
There is a real fundamental lesson here for the younger people who did not vote. You need to go out and vote otherwise something like this can happen to you. It is your legal right and you need to exercise it. Voting and losing is one thing, but not voting at all is a true travesty.
There is a real fundamental lesson here for the younger people who did not vote. You need to go out and vote otherwise something like this can happen to you. It is your legal right and you need to exercise it. Voting and losing is one thing, but not voting at all is a true travesty.
16
I hope that the young people of Britain will understand that this result does not mean they cannot travel, study or work abroad. I first traveled to Europe in the 60s, to spend a year studying there, before there was an EU (one of the things I was studying in Geneva was European economic integration). I just needed to get a student visa. Every year thousands, if not millions, of young people from all over the world (including Brits) come to the US to study and work and they manage to get visas and go about their business.
I remember Europe when there were border controls and it was not the end of the world. In most cases, at least in my case, it was pretty cursory, in fact much the same as it is today for me. In areas where there were a lot of people crossing the border every day for work (like from France into Geneva) there were protocols to facilitate easy movement of those people.
I suggest that young British people who are concerned about specific issues post-Brexit get involved in the process and make their concerns and wants known so they can be addressed -- whether in Brussels or otherwise.
I remember Europe when there were border controls and it was not the end of the world. In most cases, at least in my case, it was pretty cursory, in fact much the same as it is today for me. In areas where there were a lot of people crossing the border every day for work (like from France into Geneva) there were protocols to facilitate easy movement of those people.
I suggest that young British people who are concerned about specific issues post-Brexit get involved in the process and make their concerns and wants known so they can be addressed -- whether in Brussels or otherwise.
13
I have been reading comments over these past two days. I have my hands itching trying not to answer the absolutely oblivious comments that have been posted here and other news websites.
The UK already had its sovereignty, as it decided on its own laws, as well as take part in making the EU ones. The truth is that you didn't leave the EU because it is un democratic, you left the EU for the opposite reason, because you don't like its democracy. Like the worst spoilt brat, you decided to leave the team because it didn't go your way, because there are 27 other more countries that make a decision TOGETHER.
The EU parliament is elected just like any other parliament in Europe. The greatest and most frightening fallacy of the whole sovereignty argument is thinking that people elect the government. No. People elect the parliaments, they put people inside a building. Those people are part of a party, and the party with most people in the parliament can form a government because they have the bigger numbers when it comes to make decisions by voting in the parliament. The really funny thing about this whole mess is that we had elections for the EU parliament just 2 years ago.
You accomplished nothing, and will still have to abide to EU's requests, except now you won't have any sort of leverage. You are just a tiny island (soon just a small part of said island) that has no natural resources or peculiar products to export, nor do you have those juicy colonies to exploit anymore. Farewell.
The UK already had its sovereignty, as it decided on its own laws, as well as take part in making the EU ones. The truth is that you didn't leave the EU because it is un democratic, you left the EU for the opposite reason, because you don't like its democracy. Like the worst spoilt brat, you decided to leave the team because it didn't go your way, because there are 27 other more countries that make a decision TOGETHER.
The EU parliament is elected just like any other parliament in Europe. The greatest and most frightening fallacy of the whole sovereignty argument is thinking that people elect the government. No. People elect the parliaments, they put people inside a building. Those people are part of a party, and the party with most people in the parliament can form a government because they have the bigger numbers when it comes to make decisions by voting in the parliament. The really funny thing about this whole mess is that we had elections for the EU parliament just 2 years ago.
You accomplished nothing, and will still have to abide to EU's requests, except now you won't have any sort of leverage. You are just a tiny island (soon just a small part of said island) that has no natural resources or peculiar products to export, nor do you have those juicy colonies to exploit anymore. Farewell.
48
The EU Parliament is definitely not the main source of EU law. It is not even a very important source. In fact, it is widely perceived as being between a token gesture and a bit of a joke. That's why most voters don't pay it much attention. The "democratic deficit" of the EU is not made up. Most EU power comes from the Council, which is not directly elected, but is a proxy for the national governments. Council decisions are made by various methods of calculating majorities, sometimes weighted by population, and sometimes not. There is no doubt that Britain has needed to accept laws it would not choose for itself. All members of the EU have to. The problem is that if you don't feel enough in common with the other voters, you can come to resent their votes outweighing yours, particularly as their is enormous divergence of thought: the average EU position on structural reform is way to the the left of the consensus British view. The French consider the EU dangerously free market: to the British, this is an extraordinary position. What if a majority of Britons want to change a law, but they don't have a majority vote on the Council? If you identify first as British, then this feels undemocratic. Britain can now choose what tradeoffs it wants to make. The EU will miss Britain enormously. The pro-growth forces are now greatly weakened, as their great champion is gone. This is really very bad news for the EU, and a huge challenge for Germany.
6
And we wonder why there is so much conflict in the world. Those who lost the vote in Britain should be pulling together with those who voted to leave and finding ways to go forward and making their country stronger. Instead they are creating divisions by saying it is the youth against the pensioners. And the youth are ‘terrified’? Well that’s youth for you.
Look at the generation that overcame WWII and the bombing of Britain. The British people trusted in God to pull them through that and now today's youth have let go of that faith and the values and strengths that past generations tried to instill in them. Maybe that is why they feel at such a loss now.
Buck up and pull together!
Look at the generation that overcame WWII and the bombing of Britain. The British people trusted in God to pull them through that and now today's youth have let go of that faith and the values and strengths that past generations tried to instill in them. Maybe that is why they feel at such a loss now.
Buck up and pull together!
10
The referendum should be repeated annually. As the over-55's die off and the under-34s replace them at the polls, we would see a minority in just a few years in favor of Brexit. BTW, I am well into the 55+ category and live in the UK.
8
Hmm. The 1975 referendum (also Remain or Leave) got a huge majority. The older voters today have therefore voted twice on the EU, and a lot of them have changed their mind. Perhaps that is the experience of seeing the EU at work.
6
If you are 65 today you would have been 25 in 1975. Probably the "older voters" parents were voting then.
Many young people are influenced by their teachers at school and university many of whom belong to the affluent liberal elite the rest of the country despises. France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden will be the next to leave. The EU will become nothing more than a collection of Mediterranean and east European states clamped to Germany for financial support.
17
You say that like its a good thing. There are so many reasons why a unified Europe is good for the world, and for us here in the US. The only counterbalance to China and Russia beside us would be a strong EU. Your little island nation, as great as its history is wont be. Especially now that Scotland will more then likely leave. Globalization is a tough thing to go through, but at the end of the day its progress. More openness between people and less restriction is how we move forward as a planet and solve the great problems we all face.
4
My heart bleeds for the 21 year university student whose student-exchange trip to Romania may now have to be put on hold, or, worse, may have to be paid for by himself. 'Very damaging', indeed. What's a Brexit tragedy like that against a few old Northerners who're worried about losing their jobs to Romanian immigrants, and didn't bother reading the memo from their London betters commanding them to remain.
57
Have any of these well off educated young people been to Wales or Scotland and how many people aren't able to find work? Seen the rising drug and alcohol problems? Can they not see the coarsening culture of these people who have contributed to GB having the highest rate of births to women under 25 or the highest STI rate in Europe? Have the seen the worsening housing conditions in the schemes and estates?
No, I'm sure they haven't.
The EU membership enriched only the Elitists and their offspring. The rest of the country is dying and no one cares.
Great Britain doesn't just consist of London and its suburbs.
No, I'm sure they haven't.
The EU membership enriched only the Elitists and their offspring. The rest of the country is dying and no one cares.
Great Britain doesn't just consist of London and its suburbs.
6
THe EU has systemic problems that will force others to leave. The president of the commission has no credibility, particularly among the less well-off. The EU itself has forced the under-performing smaller economies into savage austerity programs with one aim - to keep the euro undervalued on the currency markets in order to boost the larger economies, such as Germany.
The end result is an unfair advantage to these larger economies whose products. This strong German position has the opposite effect on the smaller economies, they slightly raise the value of the euro from where it needs to be for these economies to prosper.
Britain was right to leave, if only for the protection of it's younger generation from institutionalisation. They now have a state that can begin to properly influence international matters with due regard for all citizens of the planet. The treatment of Britain, however, from the 'good' Europeans who rolled over to the Germans twice in the last century (and who are unwittingly doing so again) and needed rescuing (twice) by the very same British will be very interesting indeed.
The end result is an unfair advantage to these larger economies whose products. This strong German position has the opposite effect on the smaller economies, they slightly raise the value of the euro from where it needs to be for these economies to prosper.
Britain was right to leave, if only for the protection of it's younger generation from institutionalisation. They now have a state that can begin to properly influence international matters with due regard for all citizens of the planet. The treatment of Britain, however, from the 'good' Europeans who rolled over to the Germans twice in the last century (and who are unwittingly doing so again) and needed rescuing (twice) by the very same British will be very interesting indeed.
12
Didn't Mrs. Merkel effectively include Syria into the EU without consulting the rest of the members?
If millions of migrants can move into Germany and "Germans" can move into the rest of Europe then it means that the EU has effectively come to include a lot of countries even while Turkey is waiting in the sidelines.
I went to Munich last October and felt strongly that Mrs. Merkel was making a big mistake. But my hosts, mostly European academics, admired her. I admired her too, as a person, but as a leader she has been a disaster.
If millions of migrants can move into Germany and "Germans" can move into the rest of Europe then it means that the EU has effectively come to include a lot of countries even while Turkey is waiting in the sidelines.
I went to Munich last October and felt strongly that Mrs. Merkel was making a big mistake. But my hosts, mostly European academics, admired her. I admired her too, as a person, but as a leader she has been a disaster.
27
It's too bad that young people don't vote in the number that older folks do. The world might be a far more progressive place more quickly. We might also have a forward looking political class rather than one simply interested in protecting the attitudes of older generation they almost invariably come from.
I'm 55 and I've learned in life is that every generation should have its time, and the ability to shape a future it will be around to live with far longer than the generation before it.
My parents grew up in an environment less tolerant of minorities but fortunately I was raised in the time of the civil rights movement. Similarly I grew in an environment less tolerant of gay people at a time the American Psychiatric Association (APA) still classified homosexuality as a mental disorder (until 1973!). Thankfully it's the young leading the current movement for acceptance whether I was initially as comfortable with gay marriage or not simply because I grew up in a time when it was less acceptable.
I'd prefer to live in a more progressive democratic society where the attitudes of the young trump (excuse the expression) the increasingly anachronistic sensibilities of my generation or my parents. Am I crazy about people talking into devices instead of each other, movies with special effects and no plots, "sleeve" tattoos or bathroom humor? NO! But then again my parents weren't crazy about boom boxes, long hair, free love or sex, drugs and rock n roll. Times change, accept it.
I'm 55 and I've learned in life is that every generation should have its time, and the ability to shape a future it will be around to live with far longer than the generation before it.
My parents grew up in an environment less tolerant of minorities but fortunately I was raised in the time of the civil rights movement. Similarly I grew in an environment less tolerant of gay people at a time the American Psychiatric Association (APA) still classified homosexuality as a mental disorder (until 1973!). Thankfully it's the young leading the current movement for acceptance whether I was initially as comfortable with gay marriage or not simply because I grew up in a time when it was less acceptable.
I'd prefer to live in a more progressive democratic society where the attitudes of the young trump (excuse the expression) the increasingly anachronistic sensibilities of my generation or my parents. Am I crazy about people talking into devices instead of each other, movies with special effects and no plots, "sleeve" tattoos or bathroom humor? NO! But then again my parents weren't crazy about boom boxes, long hair, free love or sex, drugs and rock n roll. Times change, accept it.
7
But hey kids, in the U.S. and the U.K.,this is going to help DONALD's golf course in Scotland.
So quit complaining and be glad you can play a part in enriching Donnie Boy and his kids.
So quit complaining and be glad you can play a part in enriching Donnie Boy and his kids.
8
Yep, if being 24 yrs old, one does not have the experience of an all-present-EU, implementing one "guideline" after another, ranging from banana size (due to enhance sales of canary islands bananas) to useless weapon guidelines (though opposed by national federal police in Germany) and foremost of all the EURO trash can, which sucks away the future of young people, EURO country or not. If being 24 you are target of the EU´s marketing tools, giving the impression everything would be fine. Until you pay your first taxes, welfare shares and all the other community fares. It is not about hating other people, which was emphasized by my british friends, the Brits took a decision for their future...Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Appears to be familiar? Isn´t is ironic?
9
I'm so glad I'm old and won't have to deal with the world that this generation creates. These kids have been pampered by parents who remember fighting wars and living without. They whine, they winge, they complain and they better get ready to grow up, because they are going to have to live in the world they say they want.
18
Young people just had a shock about their parents. They still bought into thinking age makes people wiser and even less selfish than when young.
They were wrong. Age often doesn't mean anything more than getting older. If you were selfish and thoughtless before, you will still be selfish and thoughtless at 60.
People often become bitter and resentful with age, delighted when given the oportunity to strike back at their past tormentors, bosses and politicians.
Smug, yes and even more than that, ecstatic!
They were wrong. Age often doesn't mean anything more than getting older. If you were selfish and thoughtless before, you will still be selfish and thoughtless at 60.
People often become bitter and resentful with age, delighted when given the oportunity to strike back at their past tormentors, bosses and politicians.
Smug, yes and even more than that, ecstatic!
16
It is becoming increasingly apparent with this referendum, US elections, and the multiple right-wing successes across several modern countries, that we young people can't rely on our elders to show neither wisdom nor even common sense. We need to take more political action and responsibility for shaping the world, including not throwing away our votes and expecting our parents and grandparents to make the right choices. It's obvious they won't
11
These terrible older voters already voted on Stay or Leave, in 1975, where they gave "stay" a huge win. If they are so horrible and shortsighted, membership would have terminated then. They gave it chance, and it seems they feel let down. This time, more than 40% of the young voted to Leave anyway, but perhaps the 57% that wanted to stay should ask why their grandparents changed their mind.
4
Those photogenic young people your photographer chose to include in their shot are learning a valuable lesson. Democracy means sometimes you lose. The photo editor has chosen a picture in which the people appear sad, and that happens. What is wrong, and what I fear will happen when Mr. Trump is elected in November, is rioting.
7
Like we colonialists had a revolution in the 60's and the young folk decided to hold nationwide protests and vote in huge numbers (by US standards), the kids nowadays across the pond need to turn out and vote in the same numbers as us old timers from the 60's. Like the lame Occupy Movement here in the states that bad weather kept them home with their mommies and daddies, stop complaining and stop the daytime soldiers and summertime patriots routine. I will say that across the pond the kids did turn out in fairly astronomical numbers compared to the kids in the US, but the old fogies upped them by over 10%. Something as important as the Brexit Vote, there's no do-overs! Here in the US a big voter turn-out is 35%, under 25 voters closer to 25% or less. I give the Brit's credit, they really care about their country! While we have the a clown called Trump!
6
The British have Boris.
1
Young people are disappointed, but why didn't half of them abstain from voting. Referendums and elections have consequences. The old folks voted at the rate of 78%. It ain't a perfect world, but some things should be obvious.
9
The only FEAR is the one being predicated by the media. This outcome obviously doesn't fit the media's narrative. Let us not forget that a true "democracy" is determined at the ballot box. Not by some powerful media outlet. The will of the people is often silent. Hard working citizens seeking to absolve themselves from a political ruling class. Not once in this article was the fact that Britain took in an estimated 300,000 illegal immigrants last year. Many from Syria. It amuses me to read and listen to how the LEFT is now using the chicken little syndrome to vandalize the character of those who supported the separation from the EU. Those who voted to leave the EU are described as ignorant and stupid. Using meaningless PC labels such as UNEDUCATED/OLD/RACISTS/ISOLATIONISTS ETC. to divert attention from the fact that THEY (Liberals-Political Elites) are the ones totally disconnected w/the average man and woman. Wisdom? Youth? It's never been or ever will be associated with any country. If these younger BRITS were so critically concerned about the future and this referendum (as the TIMES so passionately suggests), then why didn't the fresh faced lads get to the polls and VOTE! Perhaps chirping in a pub, downing a beer, while eating fish and chips & watching election results on the ole telly is better suited for them. As Mark Twain once said..."YOUTH is wasted on the YOUNG."
10
@ "It would be the equivalent of the western US separating ...."
Wrong analogy. As an Englishman I heard quoted on NPR yesterday expressed it, it's more like the US having been pressured into a "North American Union" that included open borders with Mexico, and then deciding to leave.
Add to that an uber-NAFTA-to-end-all-NAFTAs that merged the three economies of Mexico, Canada and the US, as well as a remote and unresponsive legislative body in, say, Quebec City, and I think you have a better idea of the reality Britain has been living.
I'm not saying I agree with the "Leave" vote. Just that if we hope to understand the complexities and ramifications of Britain's decision, we need to start by characterizing it accurately.
The US west, after all, wouldn't "separate" from the Union; it would "secede," as the Confederacy purported to do before the Civil War. Muddled words, muddled thoughts.
Wrong analogy. As an Englishman I heard quoted on NPR yesterday expressed it, it's more like the US having been pressured into a "North American Union" that included open borders with Mexico, and then deciding to leave.
Add to that an uber-NAFTA-to-end-all-NAFTAs that merged the three economies of Mexico, Canada and the US, as well as a remote and unresponsive legislative body in, say, Quebec City, and I think you have a better idea of the reality Britain has been living.
I'm not saying I agree with the "Leave" vote. Just that if we hope to understand the complexities and ramifications of Britain's decision, we need to start by characterizing it accurately.
The US west, after all, wouldn't "separate" from the Union; it would "secede," as the Confederacy purported to do before the Civil War. Muddled words, muddled thoughts.
7
Britons chose nostalgia over the future of their young. They will soon realize that nothing will change. Being in the EU does not make a person less English and not belonging to it, doesn't make them more English. They will also find that will still have rules, this time made by politicians more likely to play politics and self-interest. Moreover, the rules that they despise are not made by faceless bureaucrats but by elected officials of all member states. They also have to consider that in leaving, they may set up a chain reaction that will return Europe to the status quo ante, with each country diminished in turn. i see that the exit leaders are not in a hurry to achieve their much-desired independence. Their purpose is two fold: delay the shock of the exit by not leaving immediately, continue to negotiate for the benefits of staying in the Union. They want to keep the proverbial cake safe in their pantry.
11
It seems that most of the young people interviewed are not from the lower economic classes. They can still travel to Europe, they can still study in Europe,
they may have to bear more of the cost of their education but why should the
citizens of the United Kingdom have to pay for their education, via being in the
EU ?
People will still be able to come to England and study and work but it just won't
be an open door. Likewise trade will continue as greed always trumps politics.
Take a deep breath, accept that your elders are wiser than you and see what
happens.
they may have to bear more of the cost of their education but why should the
citizens of the United Kingdom have to pay for their education, via being in the
EU ?
People will still be able to come to England and study and work but it just won't
be an open door. Likewise trade will continue as greed always trumps politics.
Take a deep breath, accept that your elders are wiser than you and see what
happens.
24
I would not consider the "elders" I have seen screaming at Trump rallies wiser than anybody, and I'm an elder myself.
The simple truth of the Brexit affair is that a group preaching hate and ignorance managed to convince enough equally ignorant and fearful citizens that leaving the EU would cure their fears about immigration and the economy. What they have managed to create is a future England, not Britain. It is likely that Scotland will leave the union. Likewise, there will be some alteration regarding North Ireland. Gibraltar will not probably enter some kind of joint government with Spain. The former UK is going to wind up as a small island with a modest economy. Well, the "Leave" vote has certainly taken back their country. It will not be the same country in the future. Perhaps countries contemplating turning over their governments to political parties whose main platform preaches hate and fear should carefully think about the consequences. Brexit is a step backward for the UK. Technology and the global economy is not going away and isolationist policies will be counterproductive for the future of any country in the 21sst century.
22
I doubt there are simple truths in a vote of 35m people on such a big issue. In any case, the arguments you raise were in fact raised during the campaign.
1
That picture tells it all...a group of Brits with a lifetime of experience to use as part of their sophisticated thought process that went into voting stay...how could the leave voters be so ignorant...ouuufff.
5
Sometimes, it's not a good idea for the shepherd to let the sheep decide what side of the meadow to graze upon.
That's what the dog is for...
That's what the dog is for...
7
Well, the young lack experience in the workplace and in the world. They believe the ideal models presented to them by those who want to take away their future opportunities and rights. In other words, they are naïve. What is new about it?
15
How condescending of you. "That's what's wrong with kids these days. They lack experience, they don't know what they're doing, as opposed to we experienced elders who managed to screw up the world for them."
2
Old people start conflicts, the young and naive suffer. Also nothing new about this.
That the young people quote in this piece think that older people are voting for their "comfort" rather than for a younger generation's benefit embodies millennial entitlement. Regardless of my personal feelings about the older Britons vote, I would guess that most voted thinking about their children and grandchildren's future, even if those people disagreed with the vote. I think we saw this schism here in the Democratic party with young people (as they always are!) convinced they are the only ones on the right side of history and morality and anyone supporting Ms. Clinton (and by their definition older) are out of touch establishment. Sadly, it seems we have a generation both here and across the pond that feels entitled to get their way, without investing too much time or energy to get it.
22
"Sadly, it seems we have a generation both here and across the pond that feels entitled to get their way, without investing too much time or energy to get it." How could they when all they enjoy has been worked for and spent on by the older generation?
They enjoy the "womb to tomb" benefits too much to work for them.
They enjoy the "womb to tomb" benefits too much to work for them.
Young people are not yet aware of the fact that the current form of government in the UK offers them very little in terms of a future. Their parents generation understands this completely, knowing where government by and for the 1% will leave their children. So..........the vote was not against the kids, it was against the status quo.
10
The British people have decided to take a step back in time. Isolationism and protectionism will hurt this country and its younger generation will feel it most. Anyone who thinks this is a good thing should look at history.
15
A majority thought that this was a good thing, and the majority prevailed, which in and of itself, is a good thing.
Anyone who thinks otherwise should look at history...
As for the young generation, perhaps they ought to have voted.
Never too late to learn.
Anyone who thinks otherwise should look at history...
As for the young generation, perhaps they ought to have voted.
Never too late to learn.
1
I talk to young people all the time in the US who tell me they don't plan to vote because it does not matter. Well, here is yet another example of how it really, really matters. We all need to do everything we can to make sure the young people in our lives vote, no matter what their choice may be. If you live in a democracy and don't vote, you have opted into an autocracy.
35
You have to love how, in multiple pieces, NYT has been promoting the views of the youth in Britain, after spending a year dissing the American youth's support for Bernie Sanders.
55
I'm shocked and surprised, sad, worried for all of us especially of course the young people of Britain.
There must have been a way to fix things without burning the house down.
There must have been a way to fix things without burning the house down.
10
Young people, especially Americans, take note. This is what happens when you don't vote. All the old people who vote like clock work get their way. May your voice heard. Vote!
71
Thank God for tha faceless patriots that made this a reality.
9
I respect the voters’ choice. Britain has become a smaller country. I am confident the Germans are better negotiators’ than the UK. This is a self inflicted wound.
5
Most of the young Brits I have known are not equipped language wise to live or work in the EU.. A huge reluctance to learn a second language.
I have no idea why anyone was surprised about Brexit -- it was 50/50 according the bookies I had thought... and so far as the privileged and held up the American taxpayer banks and stock market.. this tiny correction is meaningless and is the dip in the British pound.. Two summers ago the E was 1.36 US now it's about 1.12..... now that's a drop... as in 25% ish... the market was close to 16000 early last autumn (oil price drop) --- ... and one should not worry about traders (gamblers)... like Soros .. but try to be more disciplined long term like Buffet. I wonder what happens to the various Brits I know who have vacation/retirement homes in France? Perhaps they have residency.. I assume young Brits can still readily go to other parts of the commonwealth? to work and for adventure and no need to learn another language.
the immigration crisis is real Syrians and as is so often forgotten Africans... as is automation.. and despite what the young may think sometimes the old actually might do a better job than they... esp. teaching at the university level.
(The young should be glad that the elderly in most cases retired are not competing with them.)
20 year olds are always contrarians when it comes to what their elders think/say... that will prob. never change...
WE SHALL SEE...now the stock market wants guarantees.... geez
I have no idea why anyone was surprised about Brexit -- it was 50/50 according the bookies I had thought... and so far as the privileged and held up the American taxpayer banks and stock market.. this tiny correction is meaningless and is the dip in the British pound.. Two summers ago the E was 1.36 US now it's about 1.12..... now that's a drop... as in 25% ish... the market was close to 16000 early last autumn (oil price drop) --- ... and one should not worry about traders (gamblers)... like Soros .. but try to be more disciplined long term like Buffet. I wonder what happens to the various Brits I know who have vacation/retirement homes in France? Perhaps they have residency.. I assume young Brits can still readily go to other parts of the commonwealth? to work and for adventure and no need to learn another language.
the immigration crisis is real Syrians and as is so often forgotten Africans... as is automation.. and despite what the young may think sometimes the old actually might do a better job than they... esp. teaching at the university level.
(The young should be glad that the elderly in most cases retired are not competing with them.)
20 year olds are always contrarians when it comes to what their elders think/say... that will prob. never change...
WE SHALL SEE...now the stock market wants guarantees.... geez
6
Gee, the so-called "youth" of Britain wanted their parents and grandparents to think only of them? Why didn't those same "youth" think of others and vote to leave, to ensure the jobs of other generations? Can't have it both ways, people. This is another dumbing down article by the people pretending to be reporters at the NY Times. Guess what "youths" of Britain - you will very soon be the older generation, so in 20 years, you might find that leaving the EU was the right thing to do in order that the small UK population and economy can continue to keep you in the style that you expect - social safety nets and free healthcare and housing is not an infinite resource. When you become the other generations, you will finally get it - meanwhile, there is a group of very media-savvy kids out there, in the UK ages 10 to 16, who are likely already working on ways to rejoin the EU = see if the "youth" generation of now agree with them in 20 years - doubt that will be the case. But keep thinking that the world revolves around you, "youths" - that will be fun to watch.
11
If they're anything like us, it's not the over-55's vs the under-30's, it's the over 55's vs the under 50's. Can we take away their free health care that they don't want anyone younger to have?
3
I agree that the over 55s in many European countries have been and still are pampered compared to the rest of the society. Most of them have property, fairly large pensions and pretty good healthcare. Due to their voting power e.g. in Germany the government decided in favor of another large pension increase whereas education is badly underfunded etc.
They are the main feeders of the right wing movements in Europe and I agree that is is high time to cut down on their privileges and invest into the future. They are becoming a major liability for the future in many European countries.
They are the main feeders of the right wing movements in Europe and I agree that is is high time to cut down on their privileges and invest into the future. They are becoming a major liability for the future in many European countries.
3
English made huge mistake, for the banks and investment banks are ready to leave. There is no reason to stay in England unless they get huge tax breaks. England will lose close to 200,000 jobs in next five years. the United states was extremely disappointed with the English voter. Look for a massive decline in demand for English opinion. the Europeans are going to rush to get rid of England. ti is the exact opposite of what England is expecting.Germany will want for tis future. German , France, and Spain are waiting for the banks to bring more jobs to their network. Barclays fell 335 today. RBS is close to $ 5 a share. they are nearing bankruptcy filing. Hope the english are proud of their vote. If european falls apart, how will that help England? England made a huge mistake1 Look for money from all over the world to pour into US equites and US corporate bonds for it will be expected that the dollar will continue to rally.
4
Hopefully those banks will increase their operations in the USA. It may represent a big boost in NYC employment which is really fine with me.
3
Good work, UK. You've blown up your country's economy and destabilized Europe. Always thought your accents signaled intelligence. Guess not.
For all you remainers, hope you can find a good path forward.
Racism, nationalism, and xenophobia are alive and well in the world.
God help us.
For all you remainers, hope you can find a good path forward.
Racism, nationalism, and xenophobia are alive and well in the world.
God help us.
6
When things don't go your entitled way, suck it up.
4
Isn't the same thing happening here? It isn't the youth who constantly bring the government to a halt over abortion, guns, and immigration. The whole so-called conservative movement is nothing but an attempt to turn the clock back to a supposedly better time (when BTW lynching was common).
5
I hope not all of the youth of Britain are as pathetic as the ones quoted in this article. Generational gaps never go away. The young get older, then get old, and the new young dispair of their elders. Nothing new.
7
Xenophobic tendencies are just silly. This smells of a moral panic, a ruse. You've all been whipped up into a panic to distract you from some kind of robber baron tactics no doubt. Let's see who profits from this shake down. Or better yet, let's catch 'em in the act - who's watching the back door?
3
Well, perhaps if the young Britons had gone out to vote rather than holding Solo cups of beer the outcome would have been different.
The majority of Young Britons wanted to "Remain," yet high numbers failed to get out to the polls.
Do not assume others will carry the weight.
The majority of Young Britons wanted to "Remain," yet high numbers failed to get out to the polls.
Do not assume others will carry the weight.
5
Young people the world over, brainwashed by leftism.
11
The young people of UK who have no mortgages and children to school.
8
Today's news reports state the Italian Coast Guard "rescued" 7,100 "migrants" off the Libyan coast, just in the past two days. Neither in the Mediterranean nor in the Aegean do Europe's border forces simply land migrants back on the shores they departed from, as they could, if they really wanted to. I suppose the older generations in Britain understand the EU has no teeth, doesn't want teeth, and they've decided hordes of Romanians boobytrapping cash machines, and hordes of Albanians picking pockets in London, isn't what they signed up for. I can't blame them. And learn this from history: islanders are rarely team players, having had to, historically, fend for themselves. Kind of curious - Boris Johnson, probably the next PM, is American, and the governor of the Bank of England is Canadian. Go figure.
12
As a member of the over 55 crowd I say to the older generation of Britons, be careful what you wish for it might possibly come true. You can't stop the future, you may delay it but you've already lost the past and it's not coming back. So live in your delusional world and good luck with that.
9
In 2015 the UK paid the EU £8.5 billion more than it got back. The £4.5 billion "EU provided" (that is, your tax money, rebranded) educational/research/etc "free stuff" the whiners are worried about could be about tripled after Brexit is complete if UK so chose. The real cause of fear should be that many of these people have been trained by the schools to view the EU as a happy fuzzy black box that'll do the right thing for them and protect them from their nasty local in-your-face democracy. Don't they teach the dystopian authors anymore?
11
Using the same logic American Blue states should "Brexit" from Red states because the Blue states provide much more in taxes to the federal government than they get back in benefits and the Red states take much more than they give back in taxes.
3
What are you trying to say. The EU is a big bureaucracy. It is not a black box. The EU has a huge payroll and Britain is paying a big chunk of it.
You know whats funny - when youths in our country reject clinton and vote for sanders - this paper is derisive and patronizing. When the youth in briton reject brexit - you have sympathy and support. Curious difference don't you think?
32
Perhaps because actual issues are more important than media-created generational divides? Older people like Sanders. Young people voted to remain (well over 40% of them). Clinton's vs Sanders' positions are hardly the same issues as those driving the Brexit conflict.
I empathize with young Britons and their 'fear and despair' as you put it. However, transnationalism - such as the EU - is an ideal concept which works only in an ideal setting. It is illusory except in 'virtual' terms. A Union of Nations requires relinquishing much of a nation's sovereignty - Germany and France sure didn't do it - so why should Britain?
And so the Brits have taken their nation back - as is their right. Is there pain ahead? For sure. Can they make it work? Certainly. Will the EU leaders adopt punitive measures against Britain? Absolutely....it's already started.
But this represents an opportunity to put Great back into Britain once more. And I hope the Scottish people see the glaring contradiction in gaining their hard-won quest for independence only to relinquish it to a panel of bureaucrats in Belgium.
And so the Brits have taken their nation back - as is their right. Is there pain ahead? For sure. Can they make it work? Certainly. Will the EU leaders adopt punitive measures against Britain? Absolutely....it's already started.
But this represents an opportunity to put Great back into Britain once more. And I hope the Scottish people see the glaring contradiction in gaining their hard-won quest for independence only to relinquish it to a panel of bureaucrats in Belgium.
7
I suspect the younger Brits sense a war is coming and they are in the cross hairs, nit the older folk.
1
I just think that the UK may vote again on it before 2030.
2
Young people don't vote in large percentages, even when their future is at stake.
Bernie Sanders had tremendous support among the young in the United States, but a large percentage of youth did not actually go to the polls to vote for him.
This is a hard but valuable lesson for young Americans and Britons alike. You HAVE to vote. It is the only reliable power you have at this point in history.
Tragically, they may have learned that important truth too late to matter.
Bernie Sanders had tremendous support among the young in the United States, but a large percentage of youth did not actually go to the polls to vote for him.
This is a hard but valuable lesson for young Americans and Britons alike. You HAVE to vote. It is the only reliable power you have at this point in history.
Tragically, they may have learned that important truth too late to matter.
15
And Bernie Sanders was not the answer anyway. He had some very good ideas, but he's never been a doer.
The old embrace the past because they have more of it, while the young embrace the future for the same reason.
5
Spare me the drama. The UK vote to leave the EU is only advisory, there's a big chance that they will reconsider. Even if the UK goes ahead with this there is a 2 year period where they negotiate with the EU on all the details. Nothing horrible will happen either way. But it does get the NYT's the clicks they need, guess that's a good thing.
3
Wow, the baby boomers sold their children for their bigotry.
8
If these millennials are anything like their American counterparts, they didn't actually bother to vote. Whoops.
Old folks get disproportionate power and influence because they vote in much higher numbers. Sad fact when there are actually twice as many Millennials as Boomers.
But if you didn't vote, then you have no right to complain. Brexit is a truly brutal way to learn that lesson.
Old folks get disproportionate power and influence because they vote in much higher numbers. Sad fact when there are actually twice as many Millennials as Boomers.
But if you didn't vote, then you have no right to complain. Brexit is a truly brutal way to learn that lesson.
8
Too bad the NYT couldn't bother to interview the working class 20-something who could NOT afford the $373 tickets for 2 days at the Glastonbury Music Festival - the ones trying to get by on low wage jobs in the northern cities like Newcastle. The ones who are competing for those wages with workers from Poland.
As for the 21 year old barista in London... bet she is living at home because she can not even afford to rent a room in a house share in London. And with the huge annual influx of migrants (enough to fill a new city every year), she never will.
As for the 25 year old. Ms. Shaw, living with her parent because she can not afford housing.... well
(1) Enough migrants to fill a new city EVERY year drives up the cost of housing - don't have the space to build a new city every year so housing is limited so prices go up as supply goes down
(2) Migrants increase the labor supply (including the supply of workers for NHS jobs) which drives down the wages.
Lower wages due to larger supply of workers + higher and higher housing costs because of increasing population = you would be WORSE off with the EU unrestricted migration into the UK.
Obviously her "research" didn't extend to the basics of supply, demand & the affect of prices & wages - Economics 101. Facebook and Twitter are NOT "research"
As for not studying abroad -do what non-EU students do -apply for a student visa
Democracy is better than the EU dictatorship of unelected bureaucrats
As for the 21 year old barista in London... bet she is living at home because she can not even afford to rent a room in a house share in London. And with the huge annual influx of migrants (enough to fill a new city every year), she never will.
As for the 25 year old. Ms. Shaw, living with her parent because she can not afford housing.... well
(1) Enough migrants to fill a new city EVERY year drives up the cost of housing - don't have the space to build a new city every year so housing is limited so prices go up as supply goes down
(2) Migrants increase the labor supply (including the supply of workers for NHS jobs) which drives down the wages.
Lower wages due to larger supply of workers + higher and higher housing costs because of increasing population = you would be WORSE off with the EU unrestricted migration into the UK.
Obviously her "research" didn't extend to the basics of supply, demand & the affect of prices & wages - Economics 101. Facebook and Twitter are NOT "research"
As for not studying abroad -do what non-EU students do -apply for a student visa
Democracy is better than the EU dictatorship of unelected bureaucrats
34
Yeah, and now we'll see how that Brexit works out for ya! I'm sure all those jobs from Poland will come back to the north and wages will skyrocket. Good luck with that!
3
When in a hole. stop digging.
1
Great Britain came out of WW!! a pauper nation. "The Anglo-American Loan Agreement[1] was a post World War II loan made to the United Kingdom by the United States on 15 July 1946, and paid off in 2006.[2] The loan was negotiated by John Maynard Keynes. The loan was for $3.75 billion (US$57 billion in 2015) at a low 2% interest rate; Canada loaned an additional US$1.19 billion." They've let xenophobia lead them to make a bad decision. I hope they can recover, but it wasn't a forward looking decision.
4
I just hope that the EU will not bend to the British now.
The EU should immediately penalize imports from the UK!
Let them feel what it is to be isolated! Take in Scotland and Northern Ireland and let the rest starve!
The EU should immediately penalize imports from the UK!
Let them feel what it is to be isolated! Take in Scotland and Northern Ireland and let the rest starve!
3
Yep, that's always (not) the right thing to do in a crisis - up the ante!
If there's a risk of contagion to other EU members it's because of the underlying problems with today's EU, and it won't be dealt with by making them fear punishment if they leave the EU. It will be dealt with by tackling people's concerns about their loss of self-determination and sovereignty.
If there's a risk of contagion to other EU members it's because of the underlying problems with today's EU, and it won't be dealt with by making them fear punishment if they leave the EU. It will be dealt with by tackling people's concerns about their loss of self-determination and sovereignty.
2
The young have not paid many taxes yet for all of incoming refugees. Plus many of these young people have not been in the refugee parts of their towns. They do not understand how thee newly arrived people are changing their country for the worse as they are not assimilating. I think its great that Obama, Hilliary and Biden have egg on their face as the Brits have went against what Obama stated... The Brits want their country back....
6
Economy is not local anylonger. So the Brits will depend on interactions with the world. Interactions go two ways.
1
You are absolutely correct. The costs of massive immigration are yet to be felt. The British people has spoken. Some of those overpaid bureaucrats in Brussels will actually have to find a real job.
2
And to top it all the, British Government that has manipulated this farce , where out of some 70 million people only 33 million people voted cares less about UK future and the people. Where as we in this marred ,ideologically dived , polarized nation on a fast track of self destruction from within. Where 90% and 60%plus people have no confidence in the self interest / self righteous US Congress and political divided US Supreme Court. That have dished out absurd decision that corporation are people and just cannot make a simple interpretation if two lines of the 2nd amendment, that reads: " A well regulated militia , being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" adopted in 1791 , when this nation had only 13 states. In this day and age we have no militias
3
ironic,that a group of people who didn't like being told what to do by people who they felt didn't represent them,would turn right around & do it to a generation that feels the same way towards them.Millions of people who will most likely be dead within the next 15 years decided the fate of the generations to follow.
8
Unlike those who think they're more mature and wiser, the young aren't yet jaded. They're idealistic -- the kind of thought that brought us from the cave into the future. Socrates was accused of corrupting the minds of youths, but those youths brought his ideas down to us. In many ways the young are wiser than their elders.
6
“Waking up to the #EURefResults and realizing the older generation have just ruined our future,” one young Briton, Toby Pickard, wrote on Twitter.
They got you in and they got you out. The UK has been around since 1707, 309 years. And somehow it managed for 266 of those years without Brussels-based supervision. Independence is not cheap.
They got you in and they got you out. The UK has been around since 1707, 309 years. And somehow it managed for 266 of those years without Brussels-based supervision. Independence is not cheap.
3
“We’re the ones who’ve got to live with it for a long time, but a group of pensioners have managed to make a decision for us”, you said it, kid!
The mental geriatrics won; you lost, sorry.
The mental geriatrics won; you lost, sorry.
2
With Scotland leaving --there is hardly any doubt-- and N. Ireland and even Gibraltar likely to not stay, without the ability to chase opportunities all over Europe, what is there for many of the young entrepreneurial in England? Go North, young lads, settle in Scotland.
5
Did the young ones Google, text, Tweet, Facebook and Instagram their fear and despair? Too busy to participate in voting but all the time in the world to do otherwise useless twaddle.
4
And...you know this for a fact? Care to substantiate?
@ Ricky Barnacle: This morning I spent an hour reviewing Brexit voter turnout by age, and it appears that this earlier poll by the London Times was a fairly accurate predictor:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/redbox/topic/the-europe-question/only-half-of-...
Young people love to protest but are less enthused about voting. As the saying goes, "Experience is a cruel teacher--it gives the exam before teaching the lesson."
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/redbox/topic/the-europe-question/only-half-of-...
Young people love to protest but are less enthused about voting. As the saying goes, "Experience is a cruel teacher--it gives the exam before teaching the lesson."
1
"Of course, many young people supported the push to rid themselves of Europe. Ben Kew, 21, said he spent 30 hours at the Leave headquarters, watching the results come in.
'I was surprised; I didn’t think we’d go through with it, but I’m pleased that the establishment has been given a kick,' he said, adding that the vote was a moment when Britons expressed a desire for real change."
It's an open question who's been kicked. When the British pound remains depressed against the dollar and the euro, and inflation kicks in, these Leave supporters will receive a kick in the proverbial backside they will remember the rest of their lives.
'I was surprised; I didn’t think we’d go through with it, but I’m pleased that the establishment has been given a kick,' he said, adding that the vote was a moment when Britons expressed a desire for real change."
It's an open question who's been kicked. When the British pound remains depressed against the dollar and the euro, and inflation kicks in, these Leave supporters will receive a kick in the proverbial backside they will remember the rest of their lives.
18
Among liberals and conservatives, alike, on both sides of the Atlantic, there are folks so despairing of the dysfunction they see in government and society, that they are willing to bring the whole system crashing down.
But there is a difference.
Younger, more educated people, as in the Sanders campaign, hope that something new and better will arise, Pheonix-like, from the ashes.
While older, less educated folks, as in the Trump campaign, and the Leave campaign in Britain, yearn for a return to an earlier period of national glory.
In each case, hope wins out over reason. "Hope burns eternal in the human breast," Alexander Pope told us. But it doesn't solve political and economic problems.
Hope is not reality; it is wishful thinking. Reality is rolling up one's sleeves and working to fix the problems, no matter how intractable they may seem at the time.
But there is a difference.
Younger, more educated people, as in the Sanders campaign, hope that something new and better will arise, Pheonix-like, from the ashes.
While older, less educated folks, as in the Trump campaign, and the Leave campaign in Britain, yearn for a return to an earlier period of national glory.
In each case, hope wins out over reason. "Hope burns eternal in the human breast," Alexander Pope told us. But it doesn't solve political and economic problems.
Hope is not reality; it is wishful thinking. Reality is rolling up one's sleeves and working to fix the problems, no matter how intractable they may seem at the time.
34
I agree with you. It is disturbing how many Trump supporters want to see the system burn under the false pretence that something better will necessarily arise. They seem to believe that anarchy is the order of the day. They don't realize how bad things can really get. Have we forgotten George W. Bush already?
3
'"There is a lot of worry about whether free control between Ireland and Northern Ireland will be affected,” said Mr. Canavan.'
There's little doubt about that. The former will be an EU country while the latter will not. I think it is unclear at best what the shake out will be. The young people may find that it is not as bad as they fear. That said, things like ease of travel will definitely change. Like Americans the Brits will become outsiders to the EU.
There's little doubt about that. The former will be an EU country while the latter will not. I think it is unclear at best what the shake out will be. The young people may find that it is not as bad as they fear. That said, things like ease of travel will definitely change. Like Americans the Brits will become outsiders to the EU.
3
This is truly amazing, and the reality must still be settling in. If anyone caught it, last night's Rachel Maddow show gave us an excellent history of Britain starting with WWI, and how the UK got to where it was before yesterday.
The generational voting patterns are such a match for our situation here. This quote in particular grabbed me: “Truly gutted that our grandparents have effectively decided that they hate foreigners more than they love us and our futures,” one young Briton, Dan Boden, wrote on Twitter."
From everything I've read, the BREXIT was sold to citizens on a wing and a prayer, a campaign based on what they didn't want--foreignors and European bureaucracy--versus what they did want. In other words, the implications--economic downturn, loss of open borders, integrated opportunities for study and work--weren't spelled out. Perhaps the benefits, even if known would not persuade an older generation more eager to preserve than to grow.
The irony is, that what they seek to preserve--insularity, no immigration, homogeneity--also incurs financial shifts. If 'pensioners' as the kids call them called the shots here, these pensioners might be horrified to watch the UK enter recession, which would affect these "pensions" they live on.
Yesterday I heard several times that Google reported searches for BREXIT were at an all-time high. In the UK, as well as out. And that some so eager to vote their emotions suddenly were asking "what have I done?'
Amazing.
The generational voting patterns are such a match for our situation here. This quote in particular grabbed me: “Truly gutted that our grandparents have effectively decided that they hate foreigners more than they love us and our futures,” one young Briton, Dan Boden, wrote on Twitter."
From everything I've read, the BREXIT was sold to citizens on a wing and a prayer, a campaign based on what they didn't want--foreignors and European bureaucracy--versus what they did want. In other words, the implications--economic downturn, loss of open borders, integrated opportunities for study and work--weren't spelled out. Perhaps the benefits, even if known would not persuade an older generation more eager to preserve than to grow.
The irony is, that what they seek to preserve--insularity, no immigration, homogeneity--also incurs financial shifts. If 'pensioners' as the kids call them called the shots here, these pensioners might be horrified to watch the UK enter recession, which would affect these "pensions" they live on.
Yesterday I heard several times that Google reported searches for BREXIT were at an all-time high. In the UK, as well as out. And that some so eager to vote their emotions suddenly were asking "what have I done?'
Amazing.
30
The snotty comments of the english millenials show exactly why leave won. They look down at newspapers,preferring the echo chamber of social media. The kiddies living in London,do not care that huge sections of England lost jobs thanks to the EU. And of course,the name calling did nothing for their cause.
188
Did they lose jobs because of the EU or because of globalization and automation and other enormous changes that have affected all of us?
Are older British workers, over age 65, really interested in doing the hard physical work in the National Health? Or being busboys?
Look. This has been going on for decades. Coal mines, for example, were closed in the 1980's. The great economic power of China has risen to assume the might it had before the Industrial Revolution and the decay of the Qing Dynasty.
And, Britain no longer has an enormous chain of rich colonies to exploit.
What on earth is England going to do as an isolated little island especially if (when?) Scotland and Northern Ireland vote to remain with the EU and leave the English behind forever?
Are older British workers, over age 65, really interested in doing the hard physical work in the National Health? Or being busboys?
Look. This has been going on for decades. Coal mines, for example, were closed in the 1980's. The great economic power of China has risen to assume the might it had before the Industrial Revolution and the decay of the Qing Dynasty.
And, Britain no longer has an enormous chain of rich colonies to exploit.
What on earth is England going to do as an isolated little island especially if (when?) Scotland and Northern Ireland vote to remain with the EU and leave the English behind forever?
7
The "name calling"? We're no longer at the schoolyard for recess don't you know.
3
More than half the younger voters voted to remain -- not ALL are millenials or well off.
4
Youth every where should be righteously angry at the world being left to them by their parents generation. So much opportunity squandered.
48
Righteously angry? Ha. They can blame their parents for spoiling them rotten more like.
4
I felt the same way, in 1969. I'm sure the present day hipsters will too in 2040 when they are in their fifties, fat, and upset at their children defying them politically.
1
The world left to today's youth is, in most respects, materially better than previous generations. The world has never had so much wealth, and while wealth inequality IS a massive issue, even today's poor in the EU and the US are materially better off than their grandparents who grew up in post WWII Europe (and the US).
As for politics, I grew up through the Cold War, which was really just a euphemism for many, many dirty little wars in Southeast Asia, South America, and impending nuclear catastrophe in Europe between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.
Things are far from perfect now, but in many ways they are better, and in some ways we feel so much discontent because we can afford to.
As for politics, I grew up through the Cold War, which was really just a euphemism for many, many dirty little wars in Southeast Asia, South America, and impending nuclear catastrophe in Europe between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.
Things are far from perfect now, but in many ways they are better, and in some ways we feel so much discontent because we can afford to.
1
Many world leaders are underestimating their citizen's concerns with illegal immigration, and with mass migration of refugees from Third World countries into Europe. These legitimate concerns have been continually dismissed as xenophobic or racist, and so, not taken seriously, as concerns of a very large number of people in many nations. British youth appear to be dismissing concerns of their elders in some of the same ways --- referring to them as racist, backward, "foreigner-haters".
If you dismiss the legitimate concerns of huge numbers of people, referring to them as ignorant bigots, you just might get bitten from behind. People want to be heard, and they deserve to be heard. Open your ears and listen.
If you dismiss the legitimate concerns of huge numbers of people, referring to them as ignorant bigots, you just might get bitten from behind. People want to be heard, and they deserve to be heard. Open your ears and listen.
244
It's amazing that more than 50% of the UK is apparently aged pensioners. How could that be?
3
Excuse me but workers from Poland are not exactly terrorists from Afghanistan.
In the case of Britain, anyway, it's ironic that Where The Sun Never Set is all of a sudden worried about immigration and foreigners.
Have people forgotten the Empire? My goodness this is all hilarious in a way. Talk about chickens coming home to roost.
But I'm sorry for the young people - and others - who ARE more open.
In the case of Britain, anyway, it's ironic that Where The Sun Never Set is all of a sudden worried about immigration and foreigners.
Have people forgotten the Empire? My goodness this is all hilarious in a way. Talk about chickens coming home to roost.
But I'm sorry for the young people - and others - who ARE more open.
4
I agree, but please note that it would be different if these large numbers of people were in fact bigots and xenophobes -- i.e, that they didnt have legitimate concerns about illegal immigration (particularly corporate exploitation of the illegal immigrants as a form of cheap and compliant labor and the consequent downward pressure on the wages and bargaining power of citizen and legal immigrant employees) and the mass influx of refugees, many from countries known as centers of anti-Western terrorism.
1
And now the people have voted, for better or for worse. It is done. Now the leader of the UK is quitting. It would be the equivalent of the western US separating and president Obama throwing in the towel and saying: 'fine, find a new leader to help you through this mess.'
David Cameron needs to step up now, he has the connection, the knowledge to help GB to make that transition.
The markets are uneasy because of the split I think even more because who knows who the next leader will be.
If there is a time when one needs a strong leader in the UK it is now.
I would ask David Cameron not to give up on the young and all the people of Britain who brought him to power.
David Cameron needs to step up now, he has the connection, the knowledge to help GB to make that transition.
The markets are uneasy because of the split I think even more because who knows who the next leader will be.
If there is a time when one needs a strong leader in the UK it is now.
I would ask David Cameron not to give up on the young and all the people of Britain who brought him to power.
11
No, it's nothing like the West seceding. EU countries have a legal right to depart. Stop with the silliness.
2
David Cameron staked his whole political future on this vote, he's hardly fit, even if he wanted to, to extricate the UK from the EU.
6
@Anne - I think you miss the point. David Cameron led the "Remain" side in the campaign and when the vote went against him he had to recognise that, if the majority of the voters (and by that I mean those who actually cared enough to vote) wanted the alternative - to leave the EU, he was clearly NOT the person to lead the country. If he wasn't strong enough to lead the majority to remain the the EU, he is not strong to lead.
I say that even though I was in favour of remaining.
I say that even though I was in favour of remaining.
3
Brexit=catalyst
: a substance that causes a chemical reaction to happen more quickly
: a person or event that quickly causes change or action
The only important thing is what comes next. No one knows what that will be, but given the current state of the World, we should all be grateful for the possibility of change.
We have to be vigilant, not afraid.
: a substance that causes a chemical reaction to happen more quickly
: a person or event that quickly causes change or action
The only important thing is what comes next. No one knows what that will be, but given the current state of the World, we should all be grateful for the possibility of change.
We have to be vigilant, not afraid.
13
Seems like the young all over the world are the same. In this country they throw fits about why Sanders was not the nominee, but most did not bother to go out and vote for Sanders. Had these young people actually gone out to vote, the Remain side might have won.
It seems the young are being failed by their schools on how democracy works. It is one person, one vote, 50% plus one, wins.
It seems the young are being failed by their schools on how democracy works. It is one person, one vote, 50% plus one, wins.
74
Sorry, that's incorrect. Voter turn-out among younger voters was high in most areas, north of 60% and in many areas (even beset by storms and flooding on the day of voting) above 80%. They have reason to be angry at the future that elder and regional Brits have decided for them--Brexit is going to have devastating economic consequences for them.
4
"These young people" did indeed turn out to vote in very large numbers, but were crushed by the overwhelmingly xenophobic and ignorant provincial population of England and Wales. London and Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. Scotland will almost certainly hold another independence referendum soon, and London should also seek to free itself from the culturally, intellectually and economically bankrupt rural swathes of England and Wales. A city-state of London in the EU would be far better off.
4
No, young people all over the world are not the same. The times has simply chosen to feature some photogenic young people it agrees with for political reasons. There are many young people who voted Leave, especially in working class areas like Sunderland.
3
The UK and Europe are dying of old age, just like Japan and China. When will you Trumpeters figure out that nativist birth rates aren't high enough for create population cohorts to pay for your social security? The only way around it is immigration, just as it always has been in the US of A. Your best chance is to choose a sensible immigration policy, and try to attract the types of smart, stable, family-oriented people who will grow the economy and our society. Forget Trump, he's just in it for his golf courses. And will the Berners please just give it up, the rest of us are tired of your anti-Hillary nonsense.
358
Amen.
2
I wish I could hug you for this comment.
1
You actually think Hilary Clinton will solve this problem? hahahahaha.....
1
Presumably these are the folks Googling what the EU was all about. I'd suggest they also search for "Commonwealth of Nations". While not a trade bloc per se--and I defy any of them or you to empirically demonstrate what his means WRT the Brexit, given that the UK has not floated off to another part of the globe--it shows that EU governance (deservedly) is the problem. At some point, young people learn that tiptoeing around problems merely allow them to fester.
18
Australians today express a lot their desire to leave the Commonwealth, just read social medias. I am afraid you may end up with a very small island called England. Very sad.
Have faith in and respect the elderly English parents have just voted to throw their children under a double-decker bus? Hardly.
44
Half of the UK is "elderly"? How can that be?
2
I am still waiting to hear what these great contributions the baby boomers made to society-- so far I only hear them taking credit for the stuff their own parents did.
3
The young RICH Britains with university educations, opportunities to work abroad etc. are upset with this. If Britain would stop treating its native lower classes with such absolute contempt, they wouldn't have these divisions. There's no higher form of contempt than taking in refugees and immigrants when your own people lack the necessities of life, and it's Labour's fault more than the Tories ironically.
268
Well more than 50% of the youngers voted to stay.
There aren't that many young RICH British (er, or Britains as you call them) with university educations.
Many working class and struggling youngers voted remain,too.
There aren't that many young RICH British (er, or Britains as you call them) with university educations.
Many working class and struggling youngers voted remain,too.
7
The biggest problem with the native lower classes is that they are spoilt by Britains generous welfare system. Most unemployed Britons would rather stay on the dole than work for minimum wages.
3
Britain's poorest are far, far richer — and have almost unimaginably greater security — than refugees. To suggest that saving the lives of the desperate fleeing starvation and violence amounts to "contempt" for xenophobic, relatively well-off masses is utterly preposterous. Considering all of migration and generally open borders rather than the special case of refugees, all of the economic data shows that immigrants have a net positive economic impact on the country (that is, they pay far more in taxes than they receive in state benefits). Appeasing reactionary, provincial xenophobia for its own sake, and pretending that the very presence of immigrants amounts to supreme contempt, is morally reprehensible. I hold you partially responsible for this catastrophe.
10
Speaking of the youth of Britain, why is it that there is such a dichotomy between who the youth of America vote for and who the older generation votes for?
The older generations in America are not doing so well either, considering the current election.
The older generations in America are not doing so well either, considering the current election.
15
With respect Ronn that isn't really true. The differences between young American Democrats and old American Democrats, progressives etc are a matter of degree only. Many of us older Americans were all for "revolution" in our youth. We haven't lost our ideals, merely gained perspective.
As for the split between right and left, that's another story. That's dramatic, and oddly crosses class lines. Working class white people who would benefit from a Democratic president and Congress repeatedly vote for the right wing which works against labor, against health care, against education, against science and progress, and now they're nominating a near fascist with zero qualifications for President on the GOP ticket.
Our problems are not like Britain's. We are not small and we are anything but powerless. But some of us resent women, minorities, immigrants, Jews, Muslims and people of color.
That said, the lack of economic equality in the US is a significant problem and is exacerbating other issues just as it is in Britain and in Europe. But the history of America makes it uniquely vulnerable to problems of race. The election of President Obama brought out the very worst in some Americans unfortunately, and like the Brits who long for the days of glory long past, some still dream of the day when white men reigned supreme merely because they were white men.
Sorry but it's a fact. I wish it weren't. And that in itself makes it difficult to tackle economic issues.
As for the split between right and left, that's another story. That's dramatic, and oddly crosses class lines. Working class white people who would benefit from a Democratic president and Congress repeatedly vote for the right wing which works against labor, against health care, against education, against science and progress, and now they're nominating a near fascist with zero qualifications for President on the GOP ticket.
Our problems are not like Britain's. We are not small and we are anything but powerless. But some of us resent women, minorities, immigrants, Jews, Muslims and people of color.
That said, the lack of economic equality in the US is a significant problem and is exacerbating other issues just as it is in Britain and in Europe. But the history of America makes it uniquely vulnerable to problems of race. The election of President Obama brought out the very worst in some Americans unfortunately, and like the Brits who long for the days of glory long past, some still dream of the day when white men reigned supreme merely because they were white men.
Sorry but it's a fact. I wish it weren't. And that in itself makes it difficult to tackle economic issues.
6
Because the young in the USA have the advantage of working, studying and living in a market of 350 million people in a country larger than all of Europe, now the young in the UK will be confined to an island about the size of Colorado.
3
The older voter has seen how governments fail their citizens. You would be WISE to listen to people who have watched politicians for decades.
Most of the people on the Right started out as wildly liberal as your friends are. But humanity does learn despite bias in the media.
Most of the people on the Right started out as wildly liberal as your friends are. But humanity does learn despite bias in the media.
1
It was not 100 percent consensus. Many preferred to not break with a larger union. However, enough were concerned about a non-responsive governing body that was not elected by the people having too much control. Those against the break predicted economic catastrophe......on the other side of the argument, people felt the risk was worth it when the reward was sovereignty.
But, enough about the American revolution in the 1770's......
But, enough about the American revolution in the 1770's......
256
They are not un-elected. That is the lay espused by the Leave Campaign.
They are elected.
They are elected.
1
Enough and not applicable. European Parliament has democratically elected members from the UK.
1
People want to be free and make their own decisions. Distant bureaucracy always fails.
4
I find it sad and distressing about some of these comments by the young pro Europe youth about their parents and grandparents. They have forgotten the sacrifice their grandparents made to save Britain, and free Western Europe.
193
Joe O'Leary: It wasn't their grandparents who fought in WWII. It was their great-grandparents.
9
They simply know more about the modern EU...
2
And they also seem to have forgotten that many of these people they are referring to actually lived in a Britain before it joined the EU and know how the country functioned then.
3
Have a little faith, little Brits. The UK, and its successor the US, hasn't been the preeminent global power since the Middle Ages for no reason. With no EU, Britain was the empire where the sun never sets, and an economic giant before the World Wars, which it did not start. I think Britain will be just fine.
I have read the papers in England, in France, in Spain, and in Italy (though my Italian is not great). The overwhelming mood in the UK seems to be uncertainty about going it alone and the Latins seem to be between offended and diminished. Outside of the West, it isn't really top news. I don't think anybody sees this really as anything more than a fraternal feud and a kink innthe speculation markets.
I think this is mostly personal, not business, and that is why everyone keeps calling it a divorce.
I have read the papers in England, in France, in Spain, and in Italy (though my Italian is not great). The overwhelming mood in the UK seems to be uncertainty about going it alone and the Latins seem to be between offended and diminished. Outside of the West, it isn't really top news. I don't think anybody sees this really as anything more than a fraternal feud and a kink innthe speculation markets.
I think this is mostly personal, not business, and that is why everyone keeps calling it a divorce.
6
Excuse please but exactly how will Britain be "just fine" without its empire? It was poor WITH its Empire. There was deep and back-breaking poverty in England well into the 20th century. And let us now forget centuries of brutal wars, famine and plague.
The EU was created for a darn good reason - to put an end to the tribalism and economic and trade wars that resulted, over and over again, in warfare and disaster.
The last European war resulted in upwards of 60 to 100 million dead, the near extermination of European Jewry, the utter destruction of much of Europe and the devastation of Japan not to mention the use of nuclear weapons.
Good lord. This was a terrible, reactionary, very bad thing to leave up to a yes/no referendum. We have representative democracy for a reason.
The EU was created for a darn good reason - to put an end to the tribalism and economic and trade wars that resulted, over and over again, in warfare and disaster.
The last European war resulted in upwards of 60 to 100 million dead, the near extermination of European Jewry, the utter destruction of much of Europe and the devastation of Japan not to mention the use of nuclear weapons.
Good lord. This was a terrible, reactionary, very bad thing to leave up to a yes/no referendum. We have representative democracy for a reason.
8
Sophia,
The U.S. not the E.U. Is responsible for the gap in wars in Europe. As soon as the U.S, leaves or even now the "Tribalism" in Europe will again rear its ugly head.
In fact Brussels not only has "faceless bureaucrats" that make life difficult for Europe, it has street venders that sell automatic Weapons to the Terrorists that attack the rest of Europe directly.
The U.S. not the E.U. Is responsible for the gap in wars in Europe. As soon as the U.S, leaves or even now the "Tribalism" in Europe will again rear its ugly head.
In fact Brussels not only has "faceless bureaucrats" that make life difficult for Europe, it has street venders that sell automatic Weapons to the Terrorists that attack the rest of Europe directly.
1
This American granny would never have voted to leave and sees frightening parallels between the Brexit and Trump mentalities.
If I were British, I would be weeping today for my country's future and my grandchildren's. I wouldn't want to be blamed for the ballots of people whose xenophobia, economic illiteracy, or nostalgia for a misremembered past drove them to cast such irredeemably wrongheaded votes. People of whatever age.
If I were British, I would be weeping today for my country's future and my grandchildren's. I wouldn't want to be blamed for the ballots of people whose xenophobia, economic illiteracy, or nostalgia for a misremembered past drove them to cast such irredeemably wrongheaded votes. People of whatever age.
161
HALF of the UK is xenophobic and illiterate? That's an interesting conclusion.
4
How condescending of you to assume every vote for leaving was caused by "xenophobia, economic illiteracy, or nostaliga." I think there were plenty of Brits who had exceedingly valid reasons for voting to leave that didn't involve any of the three reasons you listed. How about autonomy to determine their own course of action without permission from the Brussels bureaucracy? The fact that their economy is one of the strongest in the EU and is used to prop up other countries - thus dragging down their own economy? Or what about the right to determine to decide who, and how many, people enter into the country? Seems to me these are reasonable concerns for any thinking person. Just because the majority of them came to a different conclusion to the one you preferred (to quote Biden), is reason to assassinate their character as you did in their post. And you can stop weeping. Britain will be just fine.
6
Slight correction.
Basically, 1/3 wanted out. 1/3 wanted in. The other 1/3 didn't care enough to vote. So I'd say 1/3 'could' be labeled racist.
Basically, 1/3 wanted out. 1/3 wanted in. The other 1/3 didn't care enough to vote. So I'd say 1/3 'could' be labeled racist.
The youth have just been forced into a reality that is dying with the generation of the aged Brits who could handle the impact of globalization. Fortunately, immigration works both ways. The youth can always emigrate to a less isolationist nation or city. I suspect many will and Britain will continue to suffer the consequences of a dying generation.
9
The point is the youth could previously move as easily across 28 nations as you could from Atlanta to Texas, suddenly they are faced with being only able to move barely 500 miles. The oldsters who are complaining about lost jobs have never even been willing to move 50-100 miles within England to get a job.
3
With the pound weakening and the potential for trade deals that actually consider the welfare of the general population, there's a chance young Britains might actually find work IN Britain instead of having to emigrate as more and more have recently been forced to. It might be tough at first, but we need a new approach to trade and it had to start somewhere.
21
Did you read the article? The arrangement with the EU provided MASSIVE welfare to Britons, especially in the poorer areas that needed it most. All of that will disappear now.
The value of the pound means nothing without free trade. Ideally, were the pound to weaken, other countries would purchase more British goods and make more investments in the country. But if the UK puts up trade barriers or enacts tariffs, other countries will do the same and no one will be buying those goods or investing in the country.
The value of the pound means nothing without free trade. Ideally, were the pound to weaken, other countries would purchase more British goods and make more investments in the country. But if the UK puts up trade barriers or enacts tariffs, other countries will do the same and no one will be buying those goods or investing in the country.
5
The money the EU spends in the UK is less than half of the money the UK gives the EU in the first place - so it's effectively UK money.
The rest of the money that the UK give the EU, the EU chooses to spend on other countries instead
As such the amount of money the UK could spend on such things could double
The rest of the money that the UK give the EU, the EU chooses to spend on other countries instead
As such the amount of money the UK could spend on such things could double
3
The danger is that the U.K.'s political xenophobia and cultural nostalgia motivating the "Leave" vote might go viral and infect former colonies, namely US. They call the process "referendum" and not "referensmart" for a reason, witness the huge number of U.K. Google hits on "What is the EU?" The Founders had it right when they divided governmental powers and insulated elected officials from direct, immediate, emotional, and ill-considered political action, a.k.a. the referundum.
16
What the Founders had right, that the Brits don't get, is not separation of powers. Separation of powers is a British idea which they still have and which we have in modified form.
What we also have, that they don't, is the idea of a written constitution. that at bottom is a distinction between supermajoritarian issues and processes (what we call "constitutional") and lesser issues and processes which are subject to majority rule.
Our "union" is a supermajority act of "We the People" (see Constitution, ratification of) which cannot be undone by ordinary majorities in this or that state or town. See War, Civil. It can be undone, but only by a supermajority - e.g. an amendment which would permit states to secede by majority vote of citizens.
The EU is a lot like the confederal US replaced by the Constitution ratified by We the People. They have not taken that second step.
What we also have, that they don't, is the idea of a written constitution. that at bottom is a distinction between supermajoritarian issues and processes (what we call "constitutional") and lesser issues and processes which are subject to majority rule.
Our "union" is a supermajority act of "We the People" (see Constitution, ratification of) which cannot be undone by ordinary majorities in this or that state or town. See War, Civil. It can be undone, but only by a supermajority - e.g. an amendment which would permit states to secede by majority vote of citizens.
The EU is a lot like the confederal US replaced by the Constitution ratified by We the People. They have not taken that second step.
2
I heard someone on a radio show yesterday wonder why a decision this big didn't require more than just a simple majority, e.g., two-thirds majority. 52%-48% (with rounding up/down) is not an overwhelming victory.
2
MEH, you might be misinterpreting the internet searches for EU. I did several Google EU searches, even though I know about the EU. I was looking for the the 28 countries presently in the EU and the history of the EU.
At a time when country should really stand together, it couldn't be more divided. I'm 26 and have never known an England without the EU. i'm worried but more so excited and curious to see how our future unfolds. The future will hold new opportunities and I am ready to embrace and endure the good with the bad. i'm ready to start digging and get to work on building a greater Britain, i hope other will do the same.
33
Thank you Dean - it's great to hear some optimism and a young person moving toward unity and pulling together instead of pushing people further apart!!
2
Have you traveled outside Britain much?
2
Good luck with that Dean. Your country just voted to commit economic suicide. If I were you I would flee to Scotland or Ireland ASAP. At least they understand the implications of Leave, even if England does not.
The Brits do make some strange calls. They had no problem tossing Winston Churchill as soon as the war was over and wept at his funeral, and here they are tossing their long relationship with the rest of Europe because they got a bug in their breeches that they are not independent any more. Have they been feeling like their former colonies? Oh goodness.
It used to that the sun never set on the empire and now the empire is basically a north Atlantic Haiti and the sun's traverse takes only an hour or so.
It used to that the sun never set on the empire and now the empire is basically a north Atlantic Haiti and the sun's traverse takes only an hour or so.
56
No shortage of dramatic overstatements in this world-ending crisis. Haiti? Really?
2
Do look up Winston Churchill 's Secret War.
The media, in trying to heighten a story, are oversimplifying this. The 55 and above, and 33 and younger, each split 7% off a tie. The older group 57% in favor of leaving, the younger group 57% in favor of staying in. A significant break but still, what about that 43% of 33 and younger crowd who voted leave? Or the 43% of old folks who voted remain... but to read the papers you'd think it was a massive phalanx of old codgers that control the destiny of everyone else.
I suspect a cocktail of different factors went into to this: Education or lack of it, the poor vs the privileged, those born to the EU vs those who were born before... and another factor here is persons of low status lashing out at those of high status.
I think the elites who generally run the show will be loathe to hold more referendums anytime soon. Populism, so often applauded in the underdeveloped world, is dangerous when it's in your own yard.
I suspect a cocktail of different factors went into to this: Education or lack of it, the poor vs the privileged, those born to the EU vs those who were born before... and another factor here is persons of low status lashing out at those of high status.
I think the elites who generally run the show will be loathe to hold more referendums anytime soon. Populism, so often applauded in the underdeveloped world, is dangerous when it's in your own yard.
189
Could not agree more. The media also tend to ignore the fact that 55+ represents about a quarter of the population roughly as much as the 35 and under of voting age. Perhaps they believe wheeling out the 5 million or so 75 years and older (representing about 8% of the population) made all the difference.
4
You're right. Educational level was a major factor, and also regionalism. London, the cosmopolitan global center, voted to remain in the EU - their perspective is very different from "little England." And education in and of itself confers its own perspective.
Indeed this may be a good time to reflect on the need to educate our own populace. Bernie Sanders wants state schools to provide free tuition. I'd argue, that's a worthy long term goal but in the interim we're not even doing a good job of providing universally excellent public school education through high school.
We'd better start with that, and right away. We cannot afford a poorly educated citizenry.
Indeed this may be a good time to reflect on the need to educate our own populace. Bernie Sanders wants state schools to provide free tuition. I'd argue, that's a worthy long term goal but in the interim we're not even doing a good job of providing universally excellent public school education through high school.
We'd better start with that, and right away. We cannot afford a poorly educated citizenry.
7
Best brief summation I've seen.
2
It is no coincidence that most young people profiled are highly educated. The biggest gap in voting is between those who hold a degree and those who don't. Here's the nice thing about democracy: everyone's vote counts exactly the same.
Personally I have been rather shocked at the tone of many young Britons' protestations. Some even calculate the number of years left in the lives of their elders who voted to leave the EU. Last I checked, there is no maximum voting age., The only way to influence an election is to register, and vote.
As for the protection that EU rules afforded in environment, workers rights etc. well, you still have a democracy, fight to keep it!
Ageism is just as bad as any other -ism.
Personally I have been rather shocked at the tone of many young Britons' protestations. Some even calculate the number of years left in the lives of their elders who voted to leave the EU. Last I checked, there is no maximum voting age., The only way to influence an election is to register, and vote.
As for the protection that EU rules afforded in environment, workers rights etc. well, you still have a democracy, fight to keep it!
Ageism is just as bad as any other -ism.
139
It is simply not accurate that the biggest gap between remain and leave voters was education. According to all the data, it was age first by a long-shot, then education, with class not far behind education. This is the kind of casual approach to the facts that so characterized the referendum "debate."
2
People keep bringing up education level but without noting what higher education level actually means.
Ones with higher education generally profit more from globalization.
Ones with less education generally LOSE from globalization.
At least in developed nations.
So if the elites really want to continue the push for more globalization, they simply need to make sure the less educated don't lose out. Like raise minimum wage. Lower tax for less rich and more tax for more rich.
Ones with higher education generally profit more from globalization.
Ones with less education generally LOSE from globalization.
At least in developed nations.
So if the elites really want to continue the push for more globalization, they simply need to make sure the less educated don't lose out. Like raise minimum wage. Lower tax for less rich and more tax for more rich.
By applying deductive reasoning, it could be argued that only the "young" ought to be allowed to vote.
They are the ones who'll live with the long term consequences of Britain's exit from the European Union.
We're pretty sure what would have happened here stateside had the voice our youth been weighted differently.
They are the ones who'll live with the long term consequences of Britain's exit from the European Union.
We're pretty sure what would have happened here stateside had the voice our youth been weighted differently.
10
It may suffice to introduce "automatic voter registration", as in most EU countries. And lift age discrimination - 16 year-olds are often better informed about the merits of the EU than the elderly.
2
deductive reasoning should allow you to acknowledge that experience is a valuable tool in making decisions........sometimes it's the young act that like easily conned sheep.........
the E.U. government is a dysfunctional bureaucracy
the E.U. government is a dysfunctional bureaucracy
3
You must be young.
The old worked for and earned what they deserve in their remaining years. Why would they vote to give up what they actually earned in their younger years?
I'm in 40s btw.
The old worked for and earned what they deserve in their remaining years. Why would they vote to give up what they actually earned in their younger years?
I'm in 40s btw.
Brexit was proof nativism, nationalism and lies can fool a majority of the people some of the time.
Some people are so desperate for change that they truly seem not to care whether it is for the better or for the worse.
Republican leaders like Paul Ryan propagate a Randian view of the world. Everyone is out for themselves.
So it was natural that the Republican base chose Donald Trump as the Republican Presidential nominee and standard bearer.
He represents the party's core view of self-interest and enrichment through any means necessary.
He perfected the 'Art of the Steal' through a pattern of fraudulent conveyance of corporate assets through serial bankruptcies, litigation, and defrauding students by encouraging indebtedness in exchange for worthless Trump U degrees.
Even his promises of self-financing from his vast wealth turned out to be a scheme to raise money from rubes in order to pay back his campaign loans that were spent at his businesses.
Proponents fooled Brexit Leave voters by blaming all ills on immigrants and the EU.
The British people will soon discover, if they haven't already, that they have been had.
Their savings have been decimated, their standard of living weakened and their standing in the world greatly diminished, perhaps irrevocably.
May the American people learn from this.
Secretary Clinton's message is to forge a sense of connection and shared responsibility to each other and our nation.
What a beautiful contrast in perspective.
Some people are so desperate for change that they truly seem not to care whether it is for the better or for the worse.
Republican leaders like Paul Ryan propagate a Randian view of the world. Everyone is out for themselves.
So it was natural that the Republican base chose Donald Trump as the Republican Presidential nominee and standard bearer.
He represents the party's core view of self-interest and enrichment through any means necessary.
He perfected the 'Art of the Steal' through a pattern of fraudulent conveyance of corporate assets through serial bankruptcies, litigation, and defrauding students by encouraging indebtedness in exchange for worthless Trump U degrees.
Even his promises of self-financing from his vast wealth turned out to be a scheme to raise money from rubes in order to pay back his campaign loans that were spent at his businesses.
Proponents fooled Brexit Leave voters by blaming all ills on immigrants and the EU.
The British people will soon discover, if they haven't already, that they have been had.
Their savings have been decimated, their standard of living weakened and their standing in the world greatly diminished, perhaps irrevocably.
May the American people learn from this.
Secretary Clinton's message is to forge a sense of connection and shared responsibility to each other and our nation.
What a beautiful contrast in perspective.
402
"He represents the party's core view of self-interest and enrichment through any means necessary."
And you think the Democratic Party, my party, represents anything different?
You told us how Donald made his fortune in a dishonest way, but left out the more corrupt way the Clintons made theirs.
And you think the Democratic Party, my party, represents anything different?
You told us how Donald made his fortune in a dishonest way, but left out the more corrupt way the Clintons made theirs.
4
They will die citizens of a separate and sovereign nation. Like most things patriotic, Clinton cannot bring herself to appreciate the historic circumstances.
3
"Secretary Clinton's message is to forge a sense of connection and shared responsibility to each other and our nation."
Ah, yes, indeed, David Parsons. Maybe the Chronicle refused to print that Clinton slept while our embassy burned and American's died, including the Ambassador? And then helped propagate the lie it was caused by a video insulting Muslims? Or, that she has been paid millions to give speeches before the well-heeled and the banksters? Money corrupts, David, every much as power.
I hasten to add that our presidential choices this election are the worst in my 58 years of being able to vote. I will probably throw my vote away on the Libertarian candidate, who has no chance of winning. Both major party candidates are a disaster for our nation. Just as in the last 24 years with the exception of GWH Bush and Romney. "Those who are competent and refuse to govern are condemned to be governed by incompetents." Plato, Fifth Republic. Such is our sad state of affairs.
So, do not get excited, David, rest secure in the knowledge that nothing you or I do will make the slightest difference in the grand sweep of history, despite Chaos Theory. No butterfly wings in China will be flapping, creating hurricanes in Florida. May you always live in interesting times.
Ah, yes, indeed, David Parsons. Maybe the Chronicle refused to print that Clinton slept while our embassy burned and American's died, including the Ambassador? And then helped propagate the lie it was caused by a video insulting Muslims? Or, that she has been paid millions to give speeches before the well-heeled and the banksters? Money corrupts, David, every much as power.
I hasten to add that our presidential choices this election are the worst in my 58 years of being able to vote. I will probably throw my vote away on the Libertarian candidate, who has no chance of winning. Both major party candidates are a disaster for our nation. Just as in the last 24 years with the exception of GWH Bush and Romney. "Those who are competent and refuse to govern are condemned to be governed by incompetents." Plato, Fifth Republic. Such is our sad state of affairs.
So, do not get excited, David, rest secure in the knowledge that nothing you or I do will make the slightest difference in the grand sweep of history, despite Chaos Theory. No butterfly wings in China will be flapping, creating hurricanes in Florida. May you always live in interesting times.
4
I live in southern Bulgaria, courtesy of the Treaty of Maastricht and an EU (actually British) passport. Last night I had a highly symbolic dream. I was much younger and sharing an apartment somewhere else in the EU (not the UK). I came home one day to find that the door to my room had been forced open and everything I possessed had been stolen - clothes, books, computer - everything. I guess my subconscious doesn't like going to bed the citizen of a continent and waking up the citizen of a glorified atoll.
54
Those in favor of leaving share this with those in favor of Trump - they don't understand and don't like how the world is changing. Increasingly marginalized, their pain and frustration grows. But in this particular moment, it appears they can stop the inexorable forces moving us towards a more diverse, connected, and enlightened world. They can't, but perhaps it's useful for us to pause briefly and let them vent.
The Brexit vote proves, once again, that revolutionary shifts are not pretty or pleasant. It seems likely to me that those 50 and older will not see an end to the turmoil, but if humanity can avoid environmental disaster, we WILL get to that new world.
The Brexit vote proves, once again, that revolutionary shifts are not pretty or pleasant. It seems likely to me that those 50 and older will not see an end to the turmoil, but if humanity can avoid environmental disaster, we WILL get to that new world.
23
"... a more diverse, connected, and enlightened world."
You mean like Orlando, Paris, and Brussels?
You mean like Orlando, Paris, and Brussels?
3
The world is changing back.
1
There's nothing wrong with venting. Destroying the EU and damaging their own currency, economy and future and probably throwing the rest of the world into uncertainty, recession and possibly war is not "venting."
It is destruction.
It is destruction.
4
As an Englishwoman reading this in London after spending the past few nights watching the news, there is a misunderstanding of what has driven us to vote leave and it is not yearning for the good old days but the opposite.
First, the world has changed since our leaders took us into the EU and so has the EU.
In those distant days, politicians could never imagine that we could sit here, you in the USA and me in London, and talk to each other this way. They booked long distance telephone calls with the operator, now I call my god-daughter in Johannesburg on her mobile.
I think nothing of travelling to New York for a long weekend and spent last Christmas in London and New Year's Eve in Kwa ZuluNatal, South Africa. In the past, most people went to Africa by ship! Trade was conducted by marketing people travelling to other continents and spending a few weeks making presentations, now it is on the internet.
The world has moved on, the young have no experience of it and we do not want to be tied to our nearest land mass, with other countries's leaders making decisions about ours.
Imagine if you joined with South America, decisions were made in Peru and the financial centre was Mexico City. Would you want to subsume the US into that? No. I do not think so.
We are not anti Europe. But it is time to move forward.
First, the world has changed since our leaders took us into the EU and so has the EU.
In those distant days, politicians could never imagine that we could sit here, you in the USA and me in London, and talk to each other this way. They booked long distance telephone calls with the operator, now I call my god-daughter in Johannesburg on her mobile.
I think nothing of travelling to New York for a long weekend and spent last Christmas in London and New Year's Eve in Kwa ZuluNatal, South Africa. In the past, most people went to Africa by ship! Trade was conducted by marketing people travelling to other continents and spending a few weeks making presentations, now it is on the internet.
The world has moved on, the young have no experience of it and we do not want to be tied to our nearest land mass, with other countries's leaders making decisions about ours.
Imagine if you joined with South America, decisions were made in Peru and the financial centre was Mexico City. Would you want to subsume the US into that? No. I do not think so.
We are not anti Europe. But it is time to move forward.
133
"...the financial centre was Mexico City"
Yes, THAT would keep Americans awake at night - and long for a change. What you did, however, was the exact opposite. The banking centre is London, and Brexit is clearly endangering London's status.
Yes, THAT would keep Americans awake at night - and long for a change. What you did, however, was the exact opposite. The banking centre is London, and Brexit is clearly endangering London's status.
5
Despite your long intro that attempts to portray those voting for a Brexit as looking forward, rather than backwward, you betray yourself (as have many Brexiteers in recent months) despite yourself, as looking backward: Drawing a parallel between the UK and the US when you ask what the US might do if "....decisions were made in Peru and the financial centre was Mexico City...." implies that the situation facing the US and the that facing the UK are similar they are not. The UK is NOT the world's pre-eminent power any longer (the U.S. has filled this role for nearly 70 years), the U.K. economy has become one with that of the EU over a period of ~40 years, The U.S. economy is not part of an EU-like group of nations pooling sovereignty. The UK is a small island nation off the coast of NW Europe and doesn't call any of the shots any more. Alone, it's now cast adrift as a leaf blown by the wind. And it could have remained firmly attached to the world's largest tree. It's an unfolding tragedy of its own making....
4
Yes, it's time to move forward, to a world that looks more like the past, when an unchecked Germany dominated the Continent, and when Europe consisted of competing states constantly scheming against each other (or worse). If your country is not anti-Europe, it has an odd way of showing it.
In the wake of the referendum, the word that best describes Great Britian is SMALL. Not in size, but in cultural weight and clout. My guess is that your country has seriously degraded its influence in the world. It's easy to guess that a lot of people will henceforth give much less of a damn about the place.
In the wake of the referendum, the word that best describes Great Britian is SMALL. Not in size, but in cultural weight and clout. My guess is that your country has seriously degraded its influence in the world. It's easy to guess that a lot of people will henceforth give much less of a damn about the place.
4
Of course. They want the broad horizons of the whole of Europe not just England probably minus Scotland and Northern Ireland in due course. A devastating decision for the future. And one that can be laid firmly at Merkels feet. Without the millions of immigrant she welcomed without consulting the EU, many of the "little Englanders" may have voted to remain.
4
Baloney. Merkel did not welcome "millions." The thousands she did let in cannot just go to the UK -- it retained border controls when it joined the EU.
4
A collection of miscellaneous comments that don't add up to much.
Two points. Why are jobs so hard for Spanish people to find in Spain when Spain is a member of the EU? Maybe Britain wants to leave before their economy winds up the same way.
EU funding for UK universities is not free. It is paid for out of the contributions the UK Government makes to the EU. Those contributions will stop; freeing up funds for UK universities. It's simply a question of the UK Government redirecting the checks.
Two points. Why are jobs so hard for Spanish people to find in Spain when Spain is a member of the EU? Maybe Britain wants to leave before their economy winds up the same way.
EU funding for UK universities is not free. It is paid for out of the contributions the UK Government makes to the EU. Those contributions will stop; freeing up funds for UK universities. It's simply a question of the UK Government redirecting the checks.
19
Jobs in the UK were very hard to come by before the UK joined the EU (which has helped enormously to make the UK prosperous).
2
Perhaps the young people who are dismayed by this result should sit back and reflect on the possible causes instead of blaming their grandparents. Those grandparents were probably born during World War II or shortly after into a world with rationing and shortages. Through hard work (and a unionised workforce) they gained meaningful jobs and a measure of prosperity and security until the 1980's and Thatcher/Reagan and trickle down, supply side hogwash. Since then it has been a slow slide downwards for the working/middle classes.
It is likely that a major factor in the vote to get out of Europe was a reaction against a perception that the ruling classes just do not care about ordinary people.
So, young people, get off your bums and spend some time with your grandparents and listen to them and try to persuade them that your vision of a modern multicultural global society is the way forward for young and old!
Don't be surprised if they are find automation, the sharing economy, the gig economy, a lifetime of short careers in different jobs, social media etc. a poor substitute for what they were used to before 1980. Your job is to figure out a way to convince them that the future is bright for all ages!
I should declare that I am 72 and was born in England and emigrated to Australia 50 years ago so I have been very fortunate in life but I still have family in the UK and most of them are grandparents. Perhaps you could talk to them!
It is likely that a major factor in the vote to get out of Europe was a reaction against a perception that the ruling classes just do not care about ordinary people.
So, young people, get off your bums and spend some time with your grandparents and listen to them and try to persuade them that your vision of a modern multicultural global society is the way forward for young and old!
Don't be surprised if they are find automation, the sharing economy, the gig economy, a lifetime of short careers in different jobs, social media etc. a poor substitute for what they were used to before 1980. Your job is to figure out a way to convince them that the future is bright for all ages!
I should declare that I am 72 and was born in England and emigrated to Australia 50 years ago so I have been very fortunate in life but I still have family in the UK and most of them are grandparents. Perhaps you could talk to them!
26
Or perhaps they could listen.
3
I doubt young care to talk to older people, let alone being in the same room with them for more than 10 minutes.
Or you can see it as an opportunity. Have some faith in your country, my god. You are the U.K., not UKraine. This struggle will make you better people. And maybe you should respect your elders more. They are just racist old buffoons that you characterize them as being.
56
Just a heads up, respect is something earned, not freely given to people that feel entitled to it. It's also very hard to respect a group of people that enjoyed economic and social mobility their whole lives and then turned around and denied those same opportunities to others out of spite.
47
An opportunity? This is in fact a calamitous act, not an exercise in character-building.
26
"They are just racist old buffoons that you characterize them as being."
I'm guessing you meant to type "aren't" instead of "are" but it's an interesting mistake.
I'm guessing you meant to type "aren't" instead of "are" but it's an interesting mistake.
4
The older generation understands that democracy is hard won. Surely the younger generation could have out numbered and out voted their elders. I wonder if the distance and detachment of a distant Brussels government could have contributed to this malaise.
72
Nope. Most of the older generation is too young to have been alive or remember WWII. All most have known is peace. Until all these brown and black people started showing up in their country. What a colossal mistake.
The young, the ones who work and pay taxes to support the pensioners and who aren't afraid of people that don't look or act exactly like them, will leave in droves for greener pastures. The old Brexiters will be stuck as their pounds aren't going to take them nearly as far as they used to.
The young, the ones who work and pay taxes to support the pensioners and who aren't afraid of people that don't look or act exactly like them, will leave in droves for greener pastures. The old Brexiters will be stuck as their pounds aren't going to take them nearly as far as they used to.
36
What democracy ? Britain is a Constitutional Monarchy , with no written Constitution, while we a Republic: government of the people, by the people and for the people. The world democracy is no where mentioned in the US constitution , nor do be practice, what we preach.
Even though more 18 to 25 year olds voted in the referendum than in previous General Elections, they were simply out gunned/voted by a more numerous 'little Englander' older generation.
3
The youth of Britain are correct. They should have stayed not exited. Fear filled older population led the path. This will be used by Trump as a further rally for isolationism. It's all connected. The Islamic problem and impoverished middles eastern and African counties all wavy to leave their countries and when they get there transfer all blame for their problems on the nation they've arrived in. All of Latin America longs to leave. Mexico's population feels an entitlement to all come here. It's s real problem. US, all of Europe all suffer.There are more "anchor babies" arriving every year with Chinese women primarily hiding pregnancy or hiding after a visa expires to get pregnant and deliver here. To paraphrase "Humanity is not a suicide pact." Neither is the Constitution of the United States. Will the day come where we are ordered to take into our homes, families from all over the world. We and Europe are not the parents of the world.
Dictatorships like China and Russia and yes the anti Semitic Ukraine (gift wrapped to look to be an ally) all for the land advantage. It's s mess.
Dictatorships like China and Russia and yes the anti Semitic Ukraine (gift wrapped to look to be an ally) all for the land advantage. It's s mess.
71
The anchor baby phenomenon is mostly a myth; illegals are regularly deported along with their newly born Ameican children. Illegal immigrants come to the us for jobs. Stop hiring them and they will not cross the border.
14
@JJ Kenny: no, that is not true. Illegals who are deported can take their children, or not. A child who is a US citizen CAN be left in the US -- to continue to draw welfare benefits indefinitely! -- but what kind of parent would abandon their own child? I suppose it is common, because if you have extended family and someone will take the child, the illegal deported back to Mexico will continue to get at least some of that welfare money. If it means separation from your own baby -- oh well. The baby was conceived and born as a welfare scam anyways.
(We are trying DESPERATELY to enforce laws to stop the hiring of illegals -- but the Democrats, Obama & Hillary, fight us at every turn! Mandatory E-verify would do more to get illegals out of the US, than any wall or fence.)
(We are trying DESPERATELY to enforce laws to stop the hiring of illegals -- but the Democrats, Obama & Hillary, fight us at every turn! Mandatory E-verify would do more to get illegals out of the US, than any wall or fence.)
3
You are mistaken. We do not and cannot deport native born Americans. It is the parent(s) who decide to take the child with them rather than leave them in an orphanage or foster home.
1
And yet, as the NYT reported elsewhere, the biggest bloc of people who didn't show up to the polls consisted of 18- to 24-year-olds. And that's how your grandparents wind up making the big decisions that will affect your future.
744
That's the crux of the problem. They whine and complain about the elderly voting to exit but in reality how many young people went and voted? Are there really that many older people in Britain compared to the young ones who want to stay? I'm guessing they were complacent as usual and now want their safe space. Sorry, reality doesn't include safe spaces.
19
Matt, there is no problem. We are excited to leave an old fashioned bureaucracy and to move on with the rest of the world.
5
The turnout of the age groups isn't known yet, right now it's pure speculation. That said, it is a common observation that the older you are, the more likely you are to make the effort to vote.
However, the youth in the UK must be better in this respect than the lethargic US youth (of Occupy failure). In the last general election, the young UK voters participated in unprecendented numbers. As for the Brexit referendum, there WAS a last minute rush to register among younger voters, so that the deadline had to be extended.
However, the youth in the UK must be better in this respect than the lethargic US youth (of Occupy failure). In the last general election, the young UK voters participated in unprecendented numbers. As for the Brexit referendum, there WAS a last minute rush to register among younger voters, so that the deadline had to be extended.
7
Comments from young English are haunting. Sound like betrayal from the older generation seeking a nonexistent former glory. Sound familiar? Really worried about what this could mean for this country? Can this kind of small mindedness drive Americans to support a presidential candidate that would be a disaster for our country?
570
Nonexistent former glory? Two-fifth of the world's land mass flying the Union Jack. Dominance of the world's oceans for three and a half centuries? The world's only universal language? Parliamentary democracy. Economic theory. No country land since the Roman has had more influence over humanity. Non-existent former glory. Bosh. Trying getting off the iPhone - small screens are bad for the mind.
131
Actually that is not at all what this is about, its about getting rid of control by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Some would call it sovereignty. I personally hope Greece, Spain and Italy give the EU the boot too.
63
Then do what my family is doing and don't vote for Clinton or Trump.
3
The young of Britain misunderstand the motivation and fear of the generation that voted for separation. They don't understand how Britain was, truly Great Britain when it stood independently. Of course the older generation doesn't understand the connection and fears of the younger set who feel very European. Neither side can bridge the gap. They each live in different worlds. In time the younger generation and their children will see Britain return to the European Union but for now disengagement will be undertaken. And Britain will pay a far steeper price than ever imagined.
The message too is for the bureaucrats and the elites who failed miserably to understand how they totally undermined the social fabric of Britain. They created an underclass that was becoming more impoverished and further left behind every day. They didn't care that immigration left unchecked was destroying British culture. That was just too much for the older generation to bear. The younger generation simply didn't feel that same connection.
In U.S. the generation gap is almost the same. Immigration has changed schools, communities, cities, jobs, and the safety and social fabric of America. We're becoming undone by elitists who don't understand that there is a uniqueness to America that needs to be preserved. Walking across the border and declaring rights of citizenship is not citizenship. Progressives don't understand that.
Donald Trump has a chance. Because Hillary doesn't have a clue.
The message too is for the bureaucrats and the elites who failed miserably to understand how they totally undermined the social fabric of Britain. They created an underclass that was becoming more impoverished and further left behind every day. They didn't care that immigration left unchecked was destroying British culture. That was just too much for the older generation to bear. The younger generation simply didn't feel that same connection.
In U.S. the generation gap is almost the same. Immigration has changed schools, communities, cities, jobs, and the safety and social fabric of America. We're becoming undone by elitists who don't understand that there is a uniqueness to America that needs to be preserved. Walking across the border and declaring rights of citizenship is not citizenship. Progressives don't understand that.
Donald Trump has a chance. Because Hillary doesn't have a clue.
208
The UK has not been 'Great Britain' since 1801, and just the 'United Kingdom' since 1922.
It seems very very weird that a predominant world trade power voted to isolate itself.
The complications this Leave vote will be manifest over decades. The financial industry will relocate somewhat to mainland Europe (or Dublin). Scotland might start down the road to independence again. And given the new problems along the N Ireland - Free Republic border, and also given the resurgence of Ulster's businesses, I wonder if N Ireland might either wish to be independent or to be much closer to the Republic?
It seems very very weird that a predominant world trade power voted to isolate itself.
The complications this Leave vote will be manifest over decades. The financial industry will relocate somewhat to mainland Europe (or Dublin). Scotland might start down the road to independence again. And given the new problems along the N Ireland - Free Republic border, and also given the resurgence of Ulster's businesses, I wonder if N Ireland might either wish to be independent or to be much closer to the Republic?
9
Bravos, Jay. The smartest analysis I've seen in the many comments I've read today on the Brexit issue.
Youth is great, except it often lacks the in-depth perspective and wisdom that only age can give you. I have to blame it on those young people's inexperience. Why would any young person think that the European countries should be sacrificing their sovereignty, democracy, culture, and national character, to be governed by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? Oh, yeah -- and also keep their borders open to millions of third-world invaders.
So glad that the Brits got their act together, and won't have Merkel's lapdogs telling them how to run their country. I look forward to France waking up too -- fingers crossed for Frexit.
Youth is great, except it often lacks the in-depth perspective and wisdom that only age can give you. I have to blame it on those young people's inexperience. Why would any young person think that the European countries should be sacrificing their sovereignty, democracy, culture, and national character, to be governed by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? Oh, yeah -- and also keep their borders open to millions of third-world invaders.
So glad that the Brits got their act together, and won't have Merkel's lapdogs telling them how to run their country. I look forward to France waking up too -- fingers crossed for Frexit.
44
Jay from Florida, I can't tell you how thankful I am that you clarified how much the young of Britain misunderstand and don't understand about the history of their own country's greatness, how much the older generation doesn't understand about their own children, how the bureaucrats and elites failed miserably to understand and didn't care about the menace of unchecked immigration, how progressives don't understand the need to preserve America's uniqueness, and how Trump has a chance because of how clueless Hillary is. To think that one person sitting in Florida could possess a level of understanding that is so far superior to all of the above is truly awe-inspiring. Your certainty that GB (or whatever is left of it) will return to the EU is also quite reassuring, given your obvious expertise. Thank you for sharing the benefit of your remarkable insight.
12
The great irony here is that the "older generation" yearns for the "good old days" yet those days were driven by well paying jobs. Britain's "Youth" is driven by desire for benefits, a home, and good quality of life. That requires those same jobs What they want their government can't or won't pay for. I wonder if the United States understands that disconnect between government and its electorate.
175
No irony here on the part of the young Britons. I think they see well paying jobs closely linked to the unrestricted cultural, financial, travel, and educational benefits that membership in the E.U. provides. Sadly, the government will soon be paying more for benefits to the unemployed and, Britons will be paying more for goods due to a depreciated pound as a result of their elders "yearning for the good old days". Meanwhile, that additional government spending is something I don't see young Britons as wanting rather, something they will be stuck with.
24
You say, "Britain's "Youth" is driven by desire for benefits, a home, and good quality of life." Then why don't they understand that the unlimited immigration, which is what the EU brought upon the UK, would eventually lead to the destruction of the country's social safety net, and a collapse of wages? I think that those young people who wanted to remain in the EU simply don't understand their self-interest.
35
Utter tosh! The older generation may hanker after a 'glorious past', of near full employment in well paid jobs. Generation Y is dealing with the realities of a global economy were safety in numbers (i.e. membership of the EU) is a good thing.
17
So the loss is to the exploding bureaucracy and social-welfare policies of the EU and to the German domination. Germany forced austerity on the PIGS when austerity was not in their interest - it was in Germany's economic interests and it was consistent with Germany's cultural/historic bias against inflation, but it wasn't in the PIGS best interests. Germany capitulated to Russia in the Ukraine mostly due to its industrialists reliance of Russian energy - in Germany's interests but not the rest of the EU's. Germany has "bailed out" PIGS countries by lending them money to (mostly) buy German capital assets. They've forced refugee policies on others while, out of some misplaced guilt from the last century, refusing to intercede with any strength in the Middle East to stem the source and cause of the refugee crisis.
Good riddance to the German-dominated EU!