There will always be an England. A green, scepter'd isle where the bureaucrats in Brussels have no say over tea kettles or wheely-bins.
21
What percent of eligible voters in Great Britain voted ?
3
Nothing's even going to happen for 2 years.
As soon as everyone's done with the blind panic and doom & gloom, the British leadership will get the details hammered out in a way that does the least damage to Britain.
The sky might be falling for a lot of reasons. This ain't one of them.
As soon as everyone's done with the blind panic and doom & gloom, the British leadership will get the details hammered out in a way that does the least damage to Britain.
The sky might be falling for a lot of reasons. This ain't one of them.
19
The Brits did the right thing. They were tired of their economy being dragged down by the EU and especially the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain.
24
Maybe now Britain knows or possibly can understand how the three ships felt as they departed in 1492...?
7
The sky is falling, the sky is falling, the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!!
15
Clinton, Bush II and Obama each almost unilaterally created all of the US Free Trade Agreements with various third world nations all by themselves individually in accordance with the "fast track" trade agreement legislation signed into law by each President.
I wonder if "Chinagate" and "Johnny Chung" had anything to do with President Clinton granting Communist China’s MFN renewed annually and then President Clinton granting PNTR trade statuses from the US government?
What did President Obama's new Free Trade agreements do to the wages of the US workers?
What will President Obama's proposed TPP do to the wages of the US workers?
I wonder if "Chinagate" and "Johnny Chung" had anything to do with President Clinton granting Communist China’s MFN renewed annually and then President Clinton granting PNTR trade statuses from the US government?
What did President Obama's new Free Trade agreements do to the wages of the US workers?
What will President Obama's proposed TPP do to the wages of the US workers?
24
What is David Cameron thinking? He got it completely wrong, and his head and body were in a world of his own making. So many people felt disenfranchised with little or no hope of improving. This vote was in fact a referendum on failed policies of the last thirty years. He certainly got his answer.
21
Economic stability needs to be balanced with social stability.
24
The LEAVE side is like anti-vaxxers. They no longer remember the ravages of polio or small pox. So they become more concerned about the vaccines than the much, much worse disease thus prevented. Very few have living memories of the Great War and the fervent nationalism the fomented it.
32
My ancestors came from Scotland and England to the New World in the 19th century. I have traveled to the places there that they came from. It gave me knowledge of myself even though my version of the language is, well American. My best wishes to the people going forward; you have survived for centuries and will continue to do so.
And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!
And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land
And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!
And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land
7
Britain was doing very well before EU. So, no big deal.
18
Nothing sad about this. EU is an experiment. it is never written that you need to recreate old Roman Empire. No matter how you want to push a new world order people will get tired of plutocrats walking all over them. Just like kids rebelling against parents. They are trying to tell you something. Listen to it. It is the same here on this side of the Atlantic as well. Libs should stop rubbing their ideology on more conservative minded people (read gender confused bathroom) on everyday basis. You are trying to poke sleeping giant. Money and control of financial system itself will not give you control over people as you saw in the last century.
17
So global stock markets lose $2 trillion on the news. Do we really want our financial universe to be so fickle?
7
I am so very sick of everything being written off as racism in some form or another. This is just a tool used by the elite to keep the middle class in line while they get richer and the poor get poorer. What just happened in the EU will surely come to our shores as we are just as angry as the Brits. Our jobs have been moved to China, India and Mexico and all we get are cheap TV's! Our press distorts the truth into a liberal bias. It used to be that we made cars in Flint and you couldn't drink the water in Mexico. Now, they make cars in Mexico and you can't drink the water in Flint. Keep pushing gun control Barack and wonder what just happened in the UK. The middle class has finally had enough as no one from your administration speaks for them....The Dems care more about illegals than they do about the middle class. Time for EU style change.
30
The Brexit has absolutely nothing to do with Trump and Trump has absolutely nothing to do with the Brexit.
17
The brexit supporters said that a u.k more united will be built. The result: scotland wants the independence and a sociological gap between young and older people and between small villages population and big cities habitants. Well done!
7
From Trump, to Europe, to the Brexit, these are dark days for Western Democracy, as I write here https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/western-democracy-trial-more-than-any-tim...
5
Are Swiss voters also angry and frustrated? If not, how can we explain Switzerland's failure to join the EU? And what about the U.S.? Geographical distance should not be an obstacle in this age of container shipping, Airbus A380s, and Internet. Are we "angry and frustrated" and that's why we aren't begging to become an EU member?
13
NYT is behaving as if the EU has long been historic fact.
Britain has been around - as a unified country -for over 1000 years. The EU (EU not common market) - in all its interfering undemocratic glory - has only been around for for 23 years.
The Common Market made sense for trading & business. The undemocratic UNELECTED super-government of the EU which rode roughshod over democratically elected governments has never made sense. (The Euro was & is a corkbrained idea.)
Would the US really agree to be in an "American Union" of North & South American countries where
* 65% of the laws come from a super-government & are determined not by US elected officials but appointed officials from Brazil, Mexico, Belize
* it had to allow convicted murders, rapists & drug dealers from other union countries to live in the US
* it has to allow ANYONE from all other countries in the Americas move into the US if they wanted
* provide healthcare schools & housing for all those from El Salvador etc who want to live here
* Have the courts of the union force the US to allow convicted terrorists (from other countries) to live here if they had kids born here
* Have build a city the size of Chicago-LA EVERY YEAR to accommodate all who want to move to the US
(That's what Britain was facing with the EU economic migrants in terms of population increase - EU told the gov't to suck it up & build housing for the migrants)
Brexit was very sensible - US would never agree something like the EU
Britain has been around - as a unified country -for over 1000 years. The EU (EU not common market) - in all its interfering undemocratic glory - has only been around for for 23 years.
The Common Market made sense for trading & business. The undemocratic UNELECTED super-government of the EU which rode roughshod over democratically elected governments has never made sense. (The Euro was & is a corkbrained idea.)
Would the US really agree to be in an "American Union" of North & South American countries where
* 65% of the laws come from a super-government & are determined not by US elected officials but appointed officials from Brazil, Mexico, Belize
* it had to allow convicted murders, rapists & drug dealers from other union countries to live in the US
* it has to allow ANYONE from all other countries in the Americas move into the US if they wanted
* provide healthcare schools & housing for all those from El Salvador etc who want to live here
* Have the courts of the union force the US to allow convicted terrorists (from other countries) to live here if they had kids born here
* Have build a city the size of Chicago-LA EVERY YEAR to accommodate all who want to move to the US
(That's what Britain was facing with the EU economic migrants in terms of population increase - EU told the gov't to suck it up & build housing for the migrants)
Brexit was very sensible - US would never agree something like the EU
31
To be honest I knew that when Jo Cox was assissnated, that the Brexit side would probably win. As in Isreal, whenever somebody left of center is killed, instead of a sympathy vote, it only encourages the right and discourages the left.
4
Why does the NYT editorialise as if the UK has no experience running their own country.
22
I suspect that the Kingdom will un-unite rather quickly.
5
Isn't this what is best for the individual countries? Didn't we see Greece hamstrung with such an arrangement?
5
But why, why?
Is it because the E.U. has evolved into 'bureaucracy for the bureaucrats first'?
If so, the E.U. puffed-up bureaucrats are having their 'comuppance'.
Will they 'reform'?
Don't hold your breath for that, or you'll turn 'black and blue'.
Is it because the E.U. has evolved into 'bureaucracy for the bureaucrats first'?
If so, the E.U. puffed-up bureaucrats are having their 'comuppance'.
Will they 'reform'?
Don't hold your breath for that, or you'll turn 'black and blue'.
11
The UK needs to be PUNISHED severely for this vote. They want to play games with the financial stability of the world because they feel slighted? Time to show them what slighted really looks like.
7
Message from under class to over class. you get to take some lumps too.
11
June 24, 2016
Back to the future - and yet England UK is not alone - just a pause in the modernity for the learning who we are as regional arenas to build trust and cooperation - Best of luck to EU and these United States - with our without walls -well preferably with out Donald Trump......
JJA Manhattan N.Y.
Back to the future - and yet England UK is not alone - just a pause in the modernity for the learning who we are as regional arenas to build trust and cooperation - Best of luck to EU and these United States - with our without walls -well preferably with out Donald Trump......
JJA Manhattan N.Y.
5
G-d bless the Founders of this country who gave us a written Constitution and separate branches of government that have prevented us from engaging in follies like Brexit.
5
GOOD! Populists unite! Anything to hurt the rich and the corporations is always a good thing! NEXT, America November 2016. Just another reason to vote ONLY Democrat 2016.
5
It's rather amazing how quickly the Bernie Sanders supporters are taking the BREXIT decision as some sort of validation for their own populism--especially since most of them probably haven't a clue about what this decision means, outside of being "a vote against the status-quo."
Of course, these are the very same people who say they will vote for Donald Trump as an alternative to HRC.
So, is it a case of collective memory-loss that they don't realize Trump is part of the same 1% big-money class, they're constantly railing against???
Or, is having a racist bigot the closest they can come to their "revolution"?
Thinking that Donald Trump will do ANYTHING to further their platform, and take steps to hamper the rich in ANY way, is nothing, if not delusional.
Of course, these are the very same people who say they will vote for Donald Trump as an alternative to HRC.
So, is it a case of collective memory-loss that they don't realize Trump is part of the same 1% big-money class, they're constantly railing against???
Or, is having a racist bigot the closest they can come to their "revolution"?
Thinking that Donald Trump will do ANYTHING to further their platform, and take steps to hamper the rich in ANY way, is nothing, if not delusional.
13
The Brits have made fools of themselves. This vote has less to do with the EU than with cleavages within GB that might result in Scotland breaking away and England itself dissolving into pieces. Given these realities, and that both major parties in Britain are AGAINST it, chances are that the British will never get around to doing it.
4
Do you see your homeland and its culture as accidents of your birth rather than an intrinsic part of who you are? Is that a strength, or a weakness? Is that reason for fear, or reason for assurance? Maybe it’s not so much nationalistic self-confidence as that there’s no one else available. No doubt, there’s someone better somewhere, but he ain’t here. (Think: You’re all they’ve got, and that’s why they need you.)
That’s the difference between a storm and a routine patrol.
That’s the difference between a storm and a routine patrol.
2
We're heading there as well. I'm glad I'm old. have I said that before? I try to say it every day. We live in a me me me world and the Brexit reflects that. People, even voting in a bloc, are simply voting ME. and, it's a bad decision.
It is going to happen here, whether the Donald gets elected or not. HRC is not going to be a better choice. An AMEXIT is in the works. The politicians favor the rich, the people favor themselves, social considerations and abiding the law are going by the wayside.
Too often we look mostly at the big picture but down here on the ground,the rules no longer seem to apply. People don't stop at stop signs or red lights. They run over animals--again and again and again. The push when in line, they are rude in many circumstances and it is all about ME.
Pretty soon, ME won't be satisfied with the status quo and all hades will break loose.
If that seems dystopian, after 73 years of being on the blue marble, that is what I see. And who is to blame?. "we have met the enemy and he is US" Thanks POGO, aka Walt Kelly
It is going to happen here, whether the Donald gets elected or not. HRC is not going to be a better choice. An AMEXIT is in the works. The politicians favor the rich, the people favor themselves, social considerations and abiding the law are going by the wayside.
Too often we look mostly at the big picture but down here on the ground,the rules no longer seem to apply. People don't stop at stop signs or red lights. They run over animals--again and again and again. The push when in line, they are rude in many circumstances and it is all about ME.
Pretty soon, ME won't be satisfied with the status quo and all hades will break loose.
If that seems dystopian, after 73 years of being on the blue marble, that is what I see. And who is to blame?. "we have met the enemy and he is US" Thanks POGO, aka Walt Kelly
15
Leaving means they are leading. Go UK!
8
The Mainland Chinese leadership is probably having a good laugh at this and saying, "See? Democracy in action doesn't work."
2
The Know-Better-than-You's, represented in this country by this publication as much as anything else, is being told that it time to listen, really listen, without censorship, without lecturing, without name calling, without gasps of " You can't say that!". Just put their lips together and listen.
15
The king always told the serfs what would you do without me.
11
How can I short London real-estate?
2
Those same "leave" folks will be clamoring to rejoin in a few years time when they see how badly this all plays out. EU should rebuff.
4
Rule Britannia. Britons never will be slaves.
8
Putin and his pal Trump are celebrating.
7
I hear the tabloids were very pro-Brexit; I would have liked some coverage of that in the Times. Fox owns much of that business. So this is a good warning of what will happen if 51% of Americans believe Fox News.
9
None of the explanations fit with one of the most interesting aspects of this result... It is the distribution by age group of the Brexiters.... Remain has very convincingly won across the board for the lower than 50 age group.... The over 65 have been absolutely decisive... http://www.politico.eu/article/britains-youth-voted-remain-leave-eu-brex... it looks more like a last minute attempt to revive a lost world.
7
Whatever you think of the vote, take a look at the colour-coded voting map and ask yourself: does that look like a united kingdom? This Scotsman is doubly-horrified because of all the stupid, land-of-hope-and-glory arguments of the exit party.
What's next? Bring back the good old pre-decimal currency? Quick now: what's £8 3s 7d x 3?
What's next? Bring back the good old pre-decimal currency? Quick now: what's £8 3s 7d x 3?
24
The liberal progressive elitists at The New York Times editorial board have never met a blue-collar worker from Peoria who lost his job when the factory moved to Mexico, and never met a blue-collar worker in a southern border town that is overwhelmed by illegal immigrants who are not necessarily hear to work hard to support their families. Like it or not, many are Trump supporters.
And to the elite on the editorial board, these Trump supporters are nothing more than a bunch of ignorant right-wing racists, who really have no legitimate gripes with the current situation.
Guess what? The same type of people live in the UK, and they voted for Brexit. Warning to all the talking heads who were laughing at Trump last week and basically declaring the election over, it is not. Time to get our of your ivory tower and listen, unlike the bloated Brussels bureaucracy. Otherwise, you will have a President Trump.
And to the elite on the editorial board, these Trump supporters are nothing more than a bunch of ignorant right-wing racists, who really have no legitimate gripes with the current situation.
Guess what? The same type of people live in the UK, and they voted for Brexit. Warning to all the talking heads who were laughing at Trump last week and basically declaring the election over, it is not. Time to get our of your ivory tower and listen, unlike the bloated Brussels bureaucracy. Otherwise, you will have a President Trump.
16
Are you really that out of touch?
Youre shocked that voters in Great Britain and here ignored warnings from their institutions? I hate to break this to you, we not only ignore them, we have been convinced to know the powerful and rich will lie to us every time to make sure the establishment institutions keep the sweet deal they have.
You need to get out of New York and get over yourselves. Where exactly have you been?
Youre shocked that voters in Great Britain and here ignored warnings from their institutions? I hate to break this to you, we not only ignore them, we have been convinced to know the powerful and rich will lie to us every time to make sure the establishment institutions keep the sweet deal they have.
You need to get out of New York and get over yourselves. Where exactly have you been?
13
Stay calm and carry on. What's to say the Brits won't want back into the EU way down the road when the EU cleans up its house?
2
It is a gross distortion for NYT to characterize supporters of Brexit or Donald Trump as anti-globalization, anti-immigration, xenophobic, etc. Just because dissenters don't share your view, therefore, they are misguided, and haters of humanity. Whatever happened to free speech and the freedom to think? Must we all conform to your idealogy and values? There are a lot of issues that I agree with NYT and some that I disagree with. Is there room for dissent or discussion without being labeled?
18
Feeling a bit queasy and thinking about WW1 for some reason.
4
What does Murdoch want? His British newspapers urged "Leave". His surrogate
in the U.S., Trump, applauds "Leave". So at the end of the day--Mr Murdoch tell us what you want?
in the U.S., Trump, applauds "Leave". So at the end of the day--Mr Murdoch tell us what you want?
5
...in other words, Greeks could have "all" the benefits and virtually "none" of the downsides if they parted. Right?
Is this Greek to Greeks?...Sanskrit? Eyak? Noric?...Galatian?
Is this Greek to Greeks?...Sanskrit? Eyak? Noric?...Galatian?
2
The British Empire just shrunk itself.
2
Get a clue elites at the DNC, NYT, BBC, WSJ. We are angry and have been for a long time. You and your elite opinions which harm those of us who are unprotected. We are so tired of paying taxes to see our children biased against by affirmative action, our schools flooded with ESL speakers and our institutions ignored. Now we are going to elect Trump. Maybe you need to go back to your elite little East Coast colleges to study why your globalization is not popular amongst working people. What a great day!!
10
England had perfected the technique of having the cake and eat it too, but this time it has become one too many! If you are in the EU, you will have to be fully in it; there is nothing like a little pregnant!
2
In calling for this wrongheaded referendum, Mr. Cameron demonstrated that at least one outcome of this vote was in order: he didn't deserve to hold his job.
7
The article states “Millions of voters decided that a gamble on a dangerous unknown was better than staying with a present over which they felt they had lost control”. Let’s hope we don’t see the same line in the NY Times editorial after the US presidential election results on Nov 9th !!
3
This is opposing the agenda of New World Order, and in that view, it
is surely not,, a bad thing. But is for the ruling elites who desire to grab
power, total power. which has been their aim for many a long year.
Next,, maybe the Frexit? Lets hope so.
is surely not,, a bad thing. But is for the ruling elites who desire to grab
power, total power. which has been their aim for many a long year.
Next,, maybe the Frexit? Lets hope so.
9
Bottom line, the Brexit was about immigration and retaining the soul of England.
Pay attention, for something similar may be soon coming to a country near you.
Cheers!
Pay attention, for something similar may be soon coming to a country near you.
Cheers!
12
BRITAIN FIRST! With so many GLOBAL issues demanding GLOBAL attention the nativists siren song has begun to draw us towards the coast. What selfishness, the EU was the world's chance to prove that we could move beyond petty grievances of the past to work for a better, more UNIFIED tomorrow. It was never perfect, and certainly never would be. But by looking inward, Britain has helped the world take a step back to our more individualistic past.
4
"Britain concluded that a gamble on a dangerous unknown was better...."
Hey, isn't that what being "progressive" is all about? Why isn't the NYT cheering this development?
Hey, isn't that what being "progressive" is all about? Why isn't the NYT cheering this development?
6
Holy hullaballoo! The UK will be just fine, man. But in Germany the schnitzel will hit the fan. Frankfurt bankers are trembling in their vault, while swivel servants in Brussels count pigs, and goats, and naan.
7
What an epic own goal for Cameron...
8
"For Americans, a related question is whether the success of the “leave” voters – a group eerily similar to Donald Trump’s followers, motivated by many of the same frustrations and angers – presages a Trump victory."
You really show your ignorance with this silly statement. Do some research ....
You really show your ignorance with this silly statement. Do some research ....
2
The NYT treads carefully in this opinion, obviously still in shock from what they thought was a done deal. One can claim that unfettered immigration is a noble ideal but in a democracy immigration is what the people want it to be.
11
Don't hold your breath waiting for the NYTs Editorial Board to grasp the most important significance of this event. From Occupy to the Sander's campaign they just can't get that the bottom two-thirds of Americans are tired of work camp, tired of "Sixteen Tons and What Do I Get"? Another day older and deeper in debt.
That the PEW foundation discovered close to two-thirds of Americans can't cover a $400. emergency just does not penetrate the Times editorial Board's consciousness... As it continues to lobby for Sanders supporters to abandon their concerns and line up behind an abject neoliberal corporatist.
That the PEW foundation discovered close to two-thirds of Americans can't cover a $400. emergency just does not penetrate the Times editorial Board's consciousness... As it continues to lobby for Sanders supporters to abandon their concerns and line up behind an abject neoliberal corporatist.
13
Much of the discussion focused on leadership and bi-ennium election- not Brexit.
Since it will take years to unwind, there is time to rewind and keep the EU together.
This need NOT be the end of Britain in the EU. This CAN be the beginning of discussions on HOW UK can remain in the EU.
Since it will take years to unwind, there is time to rewind and keep the EU together.
This need NOT be the end of Britain in the EU. This CAN be the beginning of discussions on HOW UK can remain in the EU.
2
This is one of those events that makes you wonder about the "will of the people", the vox populi vox dei thing that they taught us poly sci. So If Trump prevails in the US will that be the will of God? Maybe we'd all be better off if God would just let us be.
3
Anger & frustration? Could also put Donny T in the White House. For an hilarious peek at that prospect, playwright Dick Weber's ribald romp AW, DONNY! takes us to that benighted place on a Halloween night. HRC's Priorities USA should get their hands on the AW, DONNY! script & distribute it in free downloads, as nothing leaves as lasting an impression as sharp-witted ridicule, certainly not expensive TV ads, the effect of which evaporate in a few days.
1
As the rich get richer and the poor, poorer............especially at the accelerated rate of the last 30 years (Sorry, Ronnie), all countries of the world are closer to revolution. It is dirty, it is painful and the poor get severely hurt in the short term. But there is a point where the "powerful running the world" becomes unacceptable.
May we all survive Brexit and the "....exits" to come.
May we all survive Brexit and the "....exits" to come.
9
Wow - the NYT and the liberals commenting here against Brexit seem to all say the same thing - that allowing the people to decide is a terrible idea - if there's havoc its the Prime Minister's fault for allowing people to vote.
Simply an amazing observation!
Simply an amazing observation!
12
What are the lessons for the US, as we vote for a new president, here?
I think that Trump's opt out approach is insane. It too appeals to gut feelings of anger and frustration. I surely hope that the American people can sense the danger of isolationism.
As John Kennedy said in his inaugural address:
" Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate."
I say the only thing we have to fear is... Donald Trump.
=========================================
I think that Trump's opt out approach is insane. It too appeals to gut feelings of anger and frustration. I surely hope that the American people can sense the danger of isolationism.
As John Kennedy said in his inaugural address:
" Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate."
I say the only thing we have to fear is... Donald Trump.
=========================================
5
What shock? What confusion? Millions of us had predicted this. The only shock and confusion is amongst the great and the good, including the NYT's Editorial Board, who insist that concerns about immigration are only held by racists and so-called Islamophobes.
16
The UK's Trump, Boris Johnson, campaigned ceaselessly for Brexit but is this morning is saying there's no hurray to leave. He was described as ashen and funereal as if he just recognized what he had done. Fair warning for November.
8
"...the “leave” voters – a group eerily similar to Donald Trump’s followers..."
Please don't ever compare more than half of Thursday's British voters to Trump supporters. Haven't they suffered enough already?
Please don't ever compare more than half of Thursday's British voters to Trump supporters. Haven't they suffered enough already?
4
This takes the "Great" out of Great Brittan.
20
A rich guy and a poor guy are sitting in a row boat. The poor guy punches a hole in the boat and it starts sinking....he wants the rich guy to feel how he has felt for the last decade. Unfortunately, the rich guy can afford a life preserver and will lose a few things while he swims away....the poor guy will take his anger down with him. Perhaps an economy that wealth for more people instead of more wealth for a few will head off the next stage: no boats at all and everyone for themselves.
37
Any business in the UK that operates in international markets will now be operating with enormous uncertainty. The economy will contract and unemployment will rise, hurting the average Brit, as well as a few golfers.
4
Fascinating to watch a country deliberately commit suicide with a song in their heart. The era of Great Britain as a world power is now over. If they no longer wish to be one, so be it. Rump England, deprived of both Scotland and Northern Ireland, will now sit on the sidelines of Europe, a sad, angry little country that no one will listen to or care about. Again, if that's what they want, oh well....
4
Let's see: actual demographic suicide v. potential economic suicide? One is already happening, the other not yet assured. An easy choice, frankly.
3
Utimately this is the rebellion against neo liberalism which has caused so many to fall in poverty. At least in English there is a safety net but in the US there is none.
So the establishment, the status quo had better heed this. I never thought it would happen but I never thought Donald Trump had a chance. Bernie Sanders should have been a red flag to Hillary and her gang. But I doubt it. Her hubris and her party's hubris makes them think they can always have their way. Well, Pay attention, Washington. This is America speaking with England.
So the establishment, the status quo had better heed this. I never thought it would happen but I never thought Donald Trump had a chance. Bernie Sanders should have been a red flag to Hillary and her gang. But I doubt it. Her hubris and her party's hubris makes them think they can always have their way. Well, Pay attention, Washington. This is America speaking with England.
3
The reality in near future fro UK is.
Scotland rekindle its independence and Join EU.
The day Scotland leaves UK and joins EU and become a member, Travelling Edinburgh requires a passport will always be reminding to this fateful date.
I hope when Scotland is leaving the UK, the very same people who vote for leave today , will be cheerful and celebrate their scotch friends hard earned independency and ascension to EU.
Scotland rekindle its independence and Join EU.
The day Scotland leaves UK and joins EU and become a member, Travelling Edinburgh requires a passport will always be reminding to this fateful date.
I hope when Scotland is leaving the UK, the very same people who vote for leave today , will be cheerful and celebrate their scotch friends hard earned independency and ascension to EU.
5
"Will the British precedent embolden other xenophobic movements, weakening the remaining union?"
Rejection of the "EU"'s sick policies is not the same as xenophobia.
Other opponents of the megalomaniac monster called the "EU" have been emboldened and that is only right.
The "EU" is destroying Europe.
The "EU" needs to bbe dismantled.
We need to coopearate in Europe as we have done for thousands of years without the "EU".
We need to cooperate to dismantle the sick, dangerous structure.
Rejection of the "EU"'s sick policies is not the same as xenophobia.
Other opponents of the megalomaniac monster called the "EU" have been emboldened and that is only right.
The "EU" is destroying Europe.
The "EU" needs to bbe dismantled.
We need to coopearate in Europe as we have done for thousands of years without the "EU".
We need to cooperate to dismantle the sick, dangerous structure.
3
"However frightening Brexit may appear on the morning after, the political, economic and security institutions of the West are solid and flexible, and with time they will adjust to the new reality. But there should be no illusion: It will be a very different reality."
It is escaping from a nauseating prison in which we have unjustly been held for over 43 years.
It is escaping from a nauseating prison in which we have unjustly been held for over 43 years.
4
There is a British petition, signed online today by over 170,000 people, many of whom have remorse and want to change their vote, that will be heard in parliament for an official re-vote because less than 53% voted to exit.
1
Reckless leaders can wreak horrible consequences. The U.S., under G. W. Bush, lied its way into a war of choice - with disastrous results, to this day. The U.K., under David Cameron, scheduled this "vote of choice" - and the results will be, at the very least, costly in many ways. The arrogance of calling for this vote! The millions of lives changed, and not for the better. We'll be studying these blunders for generations.
7
Is there enough time before the elections here in November for corporations to realize the evil of their ways and begin paying their workers a living wage that is open to growth in the future. We need to see some light at the end of the tunnel or else it's liking the US will follow Britain's lead.
1
The British who voted to leave the EU are cowards, afraid to face the global realities of displaced people, economic uncertainty around Europe and the World.
Choosing isolation and fear over cooperation and working together will not lead to the desired results.
It seems that xenophobia and isolationism is taking root across the globe and Britain now is leading the way. I thought you had more true character than this, Britain.
Choosing isolation and fear over cooperation and working together will not lead to the desired results.
It seems that xenophobia and isolationism is taking root across the globe and Britain now is leading the way. I thought you had more true character than this, Britain.
4
The U.K. vote is only the beginning of a lengthy process, and all sides might benefit The "leave" leaders have indicated they are not in a hurry even to initiate the 2 year period for negotiating terms of departure and replacement agreements with Europe. While there is a lot of anger and self-delusion
1
A decision not based on any evidence that immigrants are the problem, but on right wing paranoia and nationalism, and romanticized notions of rugged individualism, something that has never existed. Ever. No one has ever accomplished by anything by himself. Ever. Heck, the colonists came here on a grant.
On days like this I feel very fortunate to be older and to know that absent any accidents, I will die a natural death before the effects of this nativist and tribalistic screeching take hold.
To those who are young: save your money, read classic literature, study eastern and western philosophy, and strive for a small carbon footprint. You will be healthy and educated, and thus entirely capable of fending off anything remotely associated with right wing pablum.
On days like this I feel very fortunate to be older and to know that absent any accidents, I will die a natural death before the effects of this nativist and tribalistic screeching take hold.
To those who are young: save your money, read classic literature, study eastern and western philosophy, and strive for a small carbon footprint. You will be healthy and educated, and thus entirely capable of fending off anything remotely associated with right wing pablum.
12
The world has separated into those who are connected to the global economy and culture and those who feel left out and taken advantage of. Unfortunately it's not described in those terms by the disenfranchised. It gets shouted with the language of racism and xenophobia. Guns get pulled out. People die. Populism is just another word for hate.
5
Winston Churchill... Democracy is the worst form of Government except the for all those other forms. This vote, which I disagree with, is clearly the will of the people. I take exception to those who would decry referendum, the most democratic of elections by the people.
The people of the U.K. Will have to live with their decision. Perhaps not everything is or should be about economics. Perhaps if we stop calling each other names something might improve.
The people of the U.K. Will have to live with their decision. Perhaps not everything is or should be about economics. Perhaps if we stop calling each other names something might improve.
6
A quick glance at the exchange rates tells a tale that should sober the most ardent Leave celebrant.
The US dollar, up abruptly. The Euro, down a tick.
The pound? The approximate profile of a waterfall.
So, British exports may be cheaper, but the island has just stuck a thumb (or more vulgar digit) in the face of its most proximate and prolific trading partners.
Stay tuned.
The US dollar, up abruptly. The Euro, down a tick.
The pound? The approximate profile of a waterfall.
So, British exports may be cheaper, but the island has just stuck a thumb (or more vulgar digit) in the face of its most proximate and prolific trading partners.
Stay tuned.
3
Instead of continuously repeating anger and frustration as the cause why not actually work out why people are angry. Job security sucks, health care is mediocre and unless you are in the banking sector money is not so good. Given the lies politicians have told, how about actually trying to fix the EU. Even NY times, Nobel prize winning economist put the choice as bad or worse.. Perhaps there really is something wrong with the EU and polite messages were not being taken seriously.
36
Ferpete'ssake, it isn't the end of civilization! Reading through the comment threads in today's paper, one would think Britain was flying off to another planet. The Pound will stabilize. Britain makes things others want and wants things others make. Trade will continue. NATO still exists. The Russians may gloat right now but they aren't about to pour through the Fulda Gap. Everyone should calm down. Britain has survived far more serious challenges than this one. Among the many misleading comments (including the Times editorial reference to Xenophobia) is the constant harping on the immigration issue as proof of racism and the comparison thereof to Trump's immigration plans. The comparison is only valid in terms of superficial appearances. The U.S. is a vast country with ample space for many more than live here now. Population density is something like 80 per square mile as opposed to Britain's over 600 per square mile. Further, we are culturally and historically a nation built by huge waves of immigrants. Britain is a small island nation, culturally tribal, with limited resources. It isn't xenophobia to want to avoid being swamped by a huge influx of immigrants - especially one of very different - even diametrically opposed - values and traditions. The first time I went to London - 1977- as a gay man I felt safe everywhere I went. Now there are parts of the city I wouldn't dare enter and it isn't native Brits I'd be afraid of. Witness what has happened in Amsterdam.
11
Cameron was stupid and short-sighted to promise a Brexit vote, but the real villain here is Angela Merkel and the free-riding German nation. She opened the immigrant flood gates and knows not how to close them. She insisted upon extremely punitive measures which are destroying Greece and the other small nations on the EU's southern tier. Nations whose trade with Germany and contribution to depressing the value of the Euro have vastly benefited Germany and allowed it to build a huge trade surplus, while contributing virtually zilch to the defense of the democratic West. There will be other exits. Greece will be emboldened to forego national suicide and stand up to Merkel. The Dutch seem determined to vote for their own withdrawal. Absent the balance provided by Britain's presence, the weight of German dominance, over nations it nearly destroyed in WW II, will not be accepted. Merkel has unleashed the whirlwind. This has all been about appeasing her banker donors and maintaining her political coalition. Her popularity has already cratered and this will drive it down further. Like Cameron, she has no political future. The two of them will go down in history as the fools who destroyed modern Europe for their personal, short-term electoral benefit.
6
Countries who participate in the global economy, whatever their political structures, have allowed a reordering of economic forces that align the bulk of resources to benefit the rich leaving a few crumbs for the rest of us.
It is a law of nature that once the scale is tipped ever so slightly it will not tip back until there is a much greater force applied to the other side. So the rich keep accumulating more and the rest get less and less of what is leftover of the finite resources.
Some politicians have put their thumb on that fat side of the scale and make it even harder to re-balance.
These accumulators sell a false hope that what is on the heavy side will somehow fall up. They have been successful with that lie but it is getting harder for them to hide their wealth as they spend it so ostentatiously.
Add insult to injury, the well-off seem incredulous at the unrest while saying I am stuffed beyond belief and then they gobble up another slice of pie saying I can not imagine ever being hungry again while we look on at their feast.
The wealth accumulation was made possible because the EU and global economy was not set up to benefit anyone but the corporations and business entities that make the wealthy more wealthy. The 1% and the politicians who rig the scale haven't figured out that selling us on the benefits of a free-market economy and then blatantly gaming the system in their favor is eventually going to be challenged with social unrest and nationalism.
It is a law of nature that once the scale is tipped ever so slightly it will not tip back until there is a much greater force applied to the other side. So the rich keep accumulating more and the rest get less and less of what is leftover of the finite resources.
Some politicians have put their thumb on that fat side of the scale and make it even harder to re-balance.
These accumulators sell a false hope that what is on the heavy side will somehow fall up. They have been successful with that lie but it is getting harder for them to hide their wealth as they spend it so ostentatiously.
Add insult to injury, the well-off seem incredulous at the unrest while saying I am stuffed beyond belief and then they gobble up another slice of pie saying I can not imagine ever being hungry again while we look on at their feast.
The wealth accumulation was made possible because the EU and global economy was not set up to benefit anyone but the corporations and business entities that make the wealthy more wealthy. The 1% and the politicians who rig the scale haven't figured out that selling us on the benefits of a free-market economy and then blatantly gaming the system in their favor is eventually going to be challenged with social unrest and nationalism.
9
Churchill said once that a 10 minute conversation with the average voter was the best argument against democracy... Unfortunately, 1.5 million of uninformed Brits will lead the UK into future chaos. These Brits seem to be unaware of the fact that the UK's economy is driven by direct foreign investment and it has largely benefited from being in the EU. There will be serious consequences for London as Europe's financial center and for England if Scotland and Northern Ireland choose to separate from the UK and remain in the EU. I wish them good luck but I am afraid they will deeply regret their decision. This should be a lesson for the US and a clear warning never to elect Trump.
7
My first thought this morning, was "Oh no. Here comes Trump." But, after reading numerous articles on the Brexit and our politics just today, we have to consider that Londoners voted overwhelming for the Remain side and as noted, people in the villages and outlying cities supported the Brexit. This has led to ruminations that Trump can win.
But, we forget that America is an more inclusive country, that our voting blocs are larger and that women, Hispanics and other people of color who have significant voices in the general electorate will turn out to vote against the xenophobic, racist one-liners espoused by Trump. As a British voter told me on a visit to my home in Venice, "I'm voting for the Brexit because I live in a bubble and would like to stay that way." There are protectionists in America, we are in the midst of a messy Democratic process similar to the 60's and 70's, but I still feel that reason will prevail in November.
We have culture and class war clashes, but we also have a sense of ourselves as a country that can still provide hope and a pathway into stability for our disenfranchised. At least on the Democratic side, that is now acknowledge and will be a priority. After living in Europe for 14 years, I have experienced repeatedly as an American, the biases and territoriality of European cultures and their fear of what is new. We just now see it because of social media.
But, we forget that America is an more inclusive country, that our voting blocs are larger and that women, Hispanics and other people of color who have significant voices in the general electorate will turn out to vote against the xenophobic, racist one-liners espoused by Trump. As a British voter told me on a visit to my home in Venice, "I'm voting for the Brexit because I live in a bubble and would like to stay that way." There are protectionists in America, we are in the midst of a messy Democratic process similar to the 60's and 70's, but I still feel that reason will prevail in November.
We have culture and class war clashes, but we also have a sense of ourselves as a country that can still provide hope and a pathway into stability for our disenfranchised. At least on the Democratic side, that is now acknowledge and will be a priority. After living in Europe for 14 years, I have experienced repeatedly as an American, the biases and territoriality of European cultures and their fear of what is new. We just now see it because of social media.
5
The EU could only succeed if it balanced neoliberalism with social democracy so that it worked for everyone and not just for society's winners. The sacrifice of the Greek people to save the banks when their massive gambling with other peoples’ money went sour, the trade treaties worked out in secret to serve the neoliberal agenda at the expense of everyone else, and, worst of all, the betrayal by the neoliberal leadership of formerly left parties like SPD, PSF, and Labour (pre-Corbyn), destroyed not only the balance but the perception of balance. Voters on the left who formerly would have tilted the referendum in favor of Remain no longer felt they had a stake in the EU. I expect the result would be repeated in many countries across Europe if they get a referendum too.
3
I would like to believe that there is little proximity between the Brexit vote and Trump's chances in November. And yet, there is a sizeable population of similarly disaffected people in the States who seem ready to embrace the prospect of scorched earth. And they are not all racist or reactionary. There are progressives out there that feel burned by the unfulfilled promises of change during the Obama years, and the prospect that Hillary will be, at best, more of the same.
What scares me is the sense that people are desperate enough to vote for chaos , imagining that if the system burns down something better might arise in its place. I think we are reaching such a tipping point.
What scares me is the sense that people are desperate enough to vote for chaos , imagining that if the system burns down something better might arise in its place. I think we are reaching such a tipping point.
4
We're witnessing the result of decades of policies that have taken advantage of the 99% for the benefit of further enriching the 1%. The oligarchies and cartels are put on notice: rebellion is in the air. These powerful minorities believe they're immune from the lessons of history, but this is what happens when rulers down through the ages ignored the principle that the few rule at the pleasure of the many - even when the few use draconian methods and force to hold onto power, eventually, the many prevail, as King George and Marie Antoinette found out.
And it's almost laughable that the world's elite, the heads of governments and cartels, tried to stem the tide of history with their dire warnings of disaster. They are the very last people who will be listened to by those who they took advantage of and ignored for decades. They can now sit in their gilded enclaves and ponder how they created this "disaster" by their own greed and ignorance. They abdicated any responsibility by not sharing their prosperity equitably with those who made it possible, and therefore any claim on a solution that might leave them untouched. Their actions have unleashed the uncontrollable, and are relegated to being mere witnesses, As Emerson wrote: "Things are in the saddle, and ride mankind". This is the "political revolution" Bernie Sanders preached, yet was drowned out by the oligarchy who offers only the choice between the Status Quo or Crazy. No one should be shocked if Crazy prevails.
And it's almost laughable that the world's elite, the heads of governments and cartels, tried to stem the tide of history with their dire warnings of disaster. They are the very last people who will be listened to by those who they took advantage of and ignored for decades. They can now sit in their gilded enclaves and ponder how they created this "disaster" by their own greed and ignorance. They abdicated any responsibility by not sharing their prosperity equitably with those who made it possible, and therefore any claim on a solution that might leave them untouched. Their actions have unleashed the uncontrollable, and are relegated to being mere witnesses, As Emerson wrote: "Things are in the saddle, and ride mankind". This is the "political revolution" Bernie Sanders preached, yet was drowned out by the oligarchy who offers only the choice between the Status Quo or Crazy. No one should be shocked if Crazy prevails.
3
What the NYT Editorial Board has just described is how establishment power punishes those who would dare seek their own self-determination. For all the hand waving about the value of democracy, when democratic action actually demonstrates itself in unfettered form in the US and UK, the establishment loses its mind and threats of repercussions start flying (aka fear).
But of course those repercussions are built into the system that establishment power has created and nurtured under the guise of free and open democratic institutions. It's a farce. It's always been a farce. And it always will be a farce.
When push comes to shove, 21st century globalization still looks a lot like the globalization of past centuries. Those in the seats of power (the .1 %) still control the overwhelming majority of resources for which the vast majority of the world's population produces at their profound expense.
We're sick and tired of living in a feudalistic society that pretends to be otherwise. To hell with YOUR fear mongering. Let the British invasion begin!
But of course those repercussions are built into the system that establishment power has created and nurtured under the guise of free and open democratic institutions. It's a farce. It's always been a farce. And it always will be a farce.
When push comes to shove, 21st century globalization still looks a lot like the globalization of past centuries. Those in the seats of power (the .1 %) still control the overwhelming majority of resources for which the vast majority of the world's population produces at their profound expense.
We're sick and tired of living in a feudalistic society that pretends to be otherwise. To hell with YOUR fear mongering. Let the British invasion begin!
6
"Technically, the primary consequence of the vote is that Britain must begin the process of disentangling itself from the E.U.’s common market, following procedures set out in Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty."
I don't believe that the UK needs to worry about Article 50 or that the whole thing needs to be complicated.
It is reported here in Germany that the German supreme court has accepted that Germany can leave the "EU" any time it likes under the provisions of international law. If they can, then so can we.
I am quite definitely not an expert on international law but others who know more about it than I do have posted that the transfer of sovereignty to another body is illegal without the apporoval of the people.
The imposition of the Lisbon Treaty was definitely against the wishes of the British people so some believe we can leave on that basis and that the "EU" has absolutely no right to exist.
Further, it is claimed that if treaties are broken they are null and void. Given that the "EU" repeadly ignores its own laws and treaties, we could leave on that basis.
As regards trade. I believe thast trading under WTO rules is enough. China sells a massiver amount of stuff into the "EU" as can quite asily be seen by inspecting the country of origin labels in the shops here in Germany.
So the whole thing irs really rather simple.
What we really need is for Cameron to go very, very soon.
He doesn't understand the British people.
I don't believe that the UK needs to worry about Article 50 or that the whole thing needs to be complicated.
It is reported here in Germany that the German supreme court has accepted that Germany can leave the "EU" any time it likes under the provisions of international law. If they can, then so can we.
I am quite definitely not an expert on international law but others who know more about it than I do have posted that the transfer of sovereignty to another body is illegal without the apporoval of the people.
The imposition of the Lisbon Treaty was definitely against the wishes of the British people so some believe we can leave on that basis and that the "EU" has absolutely no right to exist.
Further, it is claimed that if treaties are broken they are null and void. Given that the "EU" repeadly ignores its own laws and treaties, we could leave on that basis.
As regards trade. I believe thast trading under WTO rules is enough. China sells a massiver amount of stuff into the "EU" as can quite asily be seen by inspecting the country of origin labels in the shops here in Germany.
So the whole thing irs really rather simple.
What we really need is for Cameron to go very, very soon.
He doesn't understand the British people.
2
Europe has never been unified. It's history has been a mess of shifting alliances, conflicts escalating into wars, and political upheaval.
Compared to the end of Pax Britannica (the first World War), this vote was peaceful and orderly. Let's not forget that when we try to make sense of what happened.
One other thought: the Editorial Board is so obsessed with Trump that they have to drag him into this discussion. Sorry, but that is a distraction from the real issues that require attention. I guess the Editors only now how to attack Trump, and are otherwise unable to offer anything insightful or meaningful.
Compared to the end of Pax Britannica (the first World War), this vote was peaceful and orderly. Let's not forget that when we try to make sense of what happened.
One other thought: the Editorial Board is so obsessed with Trump that they have to drag him into this discussion. Sorry, but that is a distraction from the real issues that require attention. I guess the Editors only now how to attack Trump, and are otherwise unable to offer anything insightful or meaningful.
2
"it has been a leader of Western Europe, a bastion of democratic values, economic probity and military reliability. What now happens to European unity in the face of challenges from Russia or the Middle East is one of the many open questions."
Even now there are British soldiers in Eastern countries in the "EU"
That has, I believe, to do with NATO
We don't need the "EU" for defence cooperation or indeed for anything.
Even now there are British soldiers in Eastern countries in the "EU"
That has, I believe, to do with NATO
We don't need the "EU" for defence cooperation or indeed for anything.
2
Hillary Democrats sneer and insult Sanders supporters at your peril.
The Brexit results are a strong warning for anyone complacent about Donald Trump. Brexit didn’t happen because people in Europe listened to him; but he is a voice in a call-and-response chorus that is not going to simply dissipate. As my colleague John Cassidy wrote yesterday, there are structural economic issues that have left both Leave sympathizers and Trump voters with real grievances, and it will be disastrous if bigoted nationalists are the only ones who engage them. The political institutions are very different: we don’t worry so much here about the labyrinthine regulations put out by Brussels bureaucrats; they don’t quite have super pacs. But the word “rigged,” or its local variations, is probably the key one on both sides of the Atlantic. Both Trump and Farage and his allies have made openly racist and ethnic appeals. The European Union is a great idealistic project, and it is a tragedy that it might be torn down now.
A lesson for Americans is that fortified idealistic structures can be torn down, by means of some of the same wrecking tools Trump has been willing to deploy, even if those who are considered the serious people, in a country that reminds us of our own, warn against doing so. One pattern seen in the Brexit results was a disconnect between party leaders—in all of the major parties—and their bases. Sneering is not going to save the republic.
Amy Davidson, in The New Yorker,
The Brexit results are a strong warning for anyone complacent about Donald Trump. Brexit didn’t happen because people in Europe listened to him; but he is a voice in a call-and-response chorus that is not going to simply dissipate. As my colleague John Cassidy wrote yesterday, there are structural economic issues that have left both Leave sympathizers and Trump voters with real grievances, and it will be disastrous if bigoted nationalists are the only ones who engage them. The political institutions are very different: we don’t worry so much here about the labyrinthine regulations put out by Brussels bureaucrats; they don’t quite have super pacs. But the word “rigged,” or its local variations, is probably the key one on both sides of the Atlantic. Both Trump and Farage and his allies have made openly racist and ethnic appeals. The European Union is a great idealistic project, and it is a tragedy that it might be torn down now.
A lesson for Americans is that fortified idealistic structures can be torn down, by means of some of the same wrecking tools Trump has been willing to deploy, even if those who are considered the serious people, in a country that reminds us of our own, warn against doing so. One pattern seen in the Brexit results was a disconnect between party leaders—in all of the major parties—and their bases. Sneering is not going to save the republic.
Amy Davidson, in The New Yorker,
1
Too many hand-wringers over the Brexit vote, including especially the EU and its amen chorus, insult exit supporters and miss an important point: The political, bureaucratic and policy elites are not the smartest people on the planet. In Washington, Brussels and other "thought leader" centers, they live in a self-satisfied bubble where conferences, panels and roundtables with recited talking points and penetrating glimpses into the obvious replace true democratic representation. Which starts with listening to people, and then doing the best for the most -- not telling folks what's best for them. The risk in the world is not the wealth gap but the widening divide between people who make policy, and those they claim to serve -- without actually knowing any. Brexit, or Trump for that matter, are not the answer: they're wake up calls to the policy elite -- come back to earth!
7
If the question is whether the success of the "leave" vote presages a Trump victory, then we will have to watch carefully the consequences of the "leave" vote. The very short-term result of Brexit seems to be a plunge in global markets with the specter of possible economic recession (though admittedly way too soon to tell). And according to another article I read today, some Britons seem already to be having "morning after" regrets. Not sure then if it behooves Trump to hitch his wagon to the success of "leave" vote, as he has done.
2
Brexit’s realization enunciates that anti-establishment movement is the trend of the world and therefore ineluctable although convenient untruths and slanders in which the establishment and its flunkies in various branches have engaged to stop it. The can engage in mockery of the governments of, by and for the people, day in and day out, nonetheless they cannot solve the problem of the world’s economic plight. Thirty one percent of the world population or 2.2 billion people live on less than $2 a day in 2011. The wealth owned by the world’s wealthiest 62 persons is equal to the total wealth of the poorest 3.6 billion people. That of the wealthiest 400 amounts to $3.9 trillion, higher than the G.D.P. of any country except the U.S., China and Japan.
“It’s the economy, stupid!”
People of the world have tasted enough bitterness and disappointment of the establishment supported by capital since the end of the Cold War twenty five years ago. The gullible majority wants to move on making their meager living as usual but their economic statuses changed suddenly for the worse, fell into accepting the status quo and their eyes flashed defiance. Now Donald Trump comes along whose rallying his followers to action seems to go a long way toward betterment of their own destinies.
Brexit is the canary in the coal mine for a new democratic revolution the world over.
“It’s the economy, stupid!”
People of the world have tasted enough bitterness and disappointment of the establishment supported by capital since the end of the Cold War twenty five years ago. The gullible majority wants to move on making their meager living as usual but their economic statuses changed suddenly for the worse, fell into accepting the status quo and their eyes flashed defiance. Now Donald Trump comes along whose rallying his followers to action seems to go a long way toward betterment of their own destinies.
Brexit is the canary in the coal mine for a new democratic revolution the world over.
3
Brexit is what happens when the elites fail to include masses of countrymen in the nation's prosperity and culture.
This is also true on this side of the pond: Ryan won't placate Trump supporters and Hillary won't placate Bernie supporters. The only change in the status quo is a vote for Trump since the Democrats failed to come up with an alternative.
This is also true on this side of the pond: Ryan won't placate Trump supporters and Hillary won't placate Bernie supporters. The only change in the status quo is a vote for Trump since the Democrats failed to come up with an alternative.
23
It seems we are going through the same revolution, that overthrew the Monarchies.The rise of the masses, down with the elite.This is the other side of Greed. Greed was instrumental in our development of our nation, but now the dark side of greed has arisen, those of us who have been pushed aside and step on, now want to control our destiny, no matter what the sacrifices. When you look at it, we don't have much to lose. The establishment gave us war, inflation & one recession after another, & those that suffered the most
were the disenfranchised working class, whose jobs were eliminated by greedy employers who had no compassion for the worker who made them wealthy. Capitalism has worn out our patience, we are tired of living with financial insecurity, & a rotting Social order. This is what happened to the EU in Britain, & what will put the likes of Trump in the White House.
were the disenfranchised working class, whose jobs were eliminated by greedy employers who had no compassion for the worker who made them wealthy. Capitalism has worn out our patience, we are tired of living with financial insecurity, & a rotting Social order. This is what happened to the EU in Britain, & what will put the likes of Trump in the White House.
29
If you think your country is in the toilet, I wonder if it a good idea to vote to flush?
5
How can there be such a divide between the NYT editorial board and what Britons are saying. It is documented why average Britons voted to leave. The answers read nothing like what the article says. I will have to assume the editorial board is trying to shape the narrative to look like politics at home. You should pull this editorial and rewrite.
6
Cameron was good for us and good for Israel. I'll be sorry to see him go.
3
A dangerous unknown? Britain has done just fine for hundreds of years. There is nothing dangerous about it.
7
I blame Peter Finch.
1
Here comes pre world war redux. Let everyone retreat to their corner of the boxing ring and defend that corner hoping a big bully would not rear his head and take over your corner.. For Russia Ukraine and Georgia were not enough. They are eyeing Poland and Romania. Ah yes let us build a wall and protect ourselves.
2
So it might be just me, but I don't know think the folks who voted "Leave" are voting for the right thing. I get the frustration about global capitalism ... about wages, about corporate greed. I vote "No" to those things too. I was shocked by the Iraq war, saw the financial crisis coming well before it hit, and was against the lying politicians, too. Do the Brexit voters think that voting "Leave" is a vote against them?
No ... it is a vote against a united Europe, against a stable bloc of democratic nations, against freedom, and a return to 1948. The Leavers are so dumb they don't even know what they just voted for.
No ... it is a vote against a united Europe, against a stable bloc of democratic nations, against freedom, and a return to 1948. The Leavers are so dumb they don't even know what they just voted for.
9
It turns out that labeling anyone who is against open borders as a racist is a losing strategy. Maybe the NYT should pay attention.
8
Free at last, free at last from the elitist in Brussels who have abandoned the middle class to promote their ideology in their typical lecturing ...."do as I say not as I do". Congratulations Great Britain, you showed the world the power of the people over the bureaucrats and their fear mongering.
8
By the way, where's that market crash so many had so conveniently predicted.....
Yeah.... Right.
Yeah.... Right.
3
Sadly, the people have Britain have chosen a new national anthem: "Make The World Go Away..."
4
From Hilary Mantel’s “Bring Up The Bodies:”
“It is better not to try people, not to force them to desperation. Make them prosper; out of superfluity, they will be generous. Full bellies breed gentle manners. The pinch of famine makes monsters.”
The London Elite took greed to levels rarely seen. This is their reward.
5
After uncertainty, more uncertainty. This is what happens when income concentration distorts EVERY aspect of society, ambition and the very sense of right and wrong. And this is just the beginning.
5
We know Immigration played a big role in this referendum. Could it be that the U.S is partly to blame for Britain leaving the European Union? After all it it wasn't for the Wars in Syria, Libya ,Two countries that were destabilized by the U.S Millions of Refugees would not be entering Europe .
6
Experts are often risk averse, imperious, and wrong.
4
The new Pottery Barn Rule: YOU BREXIT, YOU FIXIT!
4
Sure, let's burn it all down. Things can only get better, right?
4
I am curious, has the NY Times featured a single OP-ED in support of BREXIT?
8
This what happens when rational voters are fed up with 40 years of un-elected bureaucrats from foreign counties dictate what you can and cannot do.
8
Duck and cover. It's time for US retirement funds to be in a place safe and sound - a new investment vehicle, "mattress.com" - so you can sleep at night...
3
God forbid the 'leave' UK vote presages any relation to Sir Trump - unless of course he just leaves
Looks like the guy who murdered Jo Cox won.
Pathetic.
Pathetic.
10
The NYT editorial was as expected. How stupid could these narrow minded middle and lower class Britons be to not follow the advice of their elite leaders. The leaders of the EU have the same attitude. So when the people got a chance to vote they did.
The NYT treats Trump supporters in the same way - they must be narrow minded, poorly educated and lower income people who have no business making decisions about how this country is run. If we only left it to the Ivy league educated elites we would have no problems. So how has that worked out? Maybe great in NYC and DC but not so great in the hinterlands where people get paid for making things and doing things.
The NYT treats Trump supporters in the same way - they must be narrow minded, poorly educated and lower income people who have no business making decisions about how this country is run. If we only left it to the Ivy league educated elites we would have no problems. So how has that worked out? Maybe great in NYC and DC but not so great in the hinterlands where people get paid for making things and doing things.
14
"The NYT treats Trump supporters in the same way - they must be narrow minded, poorly educated and lower income people"....Just because you are angry and frustrated doesn't mean that doing something stupid will somehow make you better off.
8
"Britain leaves on a cry of anger and frustration."
This "cry of anger and frustration" has now shifted to the "Bremain" camp. Young Britons find it extremely unfair, that the older generation dictates their future.
The 16 and 17-year olds are extremely angry about the result, and the fact they didn't get a chance to have their say too. They would have voted to stay, had they been given the chance. They say the elder generation won't be around to face the consequences of their action.
David Cameron will live to regret this referendum has sparked, losing his job, striping the country of EU membership, sowing discord among the urban and the rural populations, the young and old, and among British peoples within the UK.
This "cry of anger and frustration" has now shifted to the "Bremain" camp. Young Britons find it extremely unfair, that the older generation dictates their future.
The 16 and 17-year olds are extremely angry about the result, and the fact they didn't get a chance to have their say too. They would have voted to stay, had they been given the chance. They say the elder generation won't be around to face the consequences of their action.
David Cameron will live to regret this referendum has sparked, losing his job, striping the country of EU membership, sowing discord among the urban and the rural populations, the young and old, and among British peoples within the UK.
11
I checked that statistics and leave vote overwhelmingly comes from 50 and older age.
Who are those people, who enjoyed very nicely with EU membership since 1973 and their bitter retirement age they do not care what the new generation wants.
it is hard to conceive baby boomers selfishness and acting like after me it is the end of the world mentality.
Who are those people, who enjoyed very nicely with EU membership since 1973 and their bitter retirement age they do not care what the new generation wants.
it is hard to conceive baby boomers selfishness and acting like after me it is the end of the world mentality.
Britain is an island nation whose geography has always resulted in an arms length relationship with continental Europe. Even when they joined the EU, they refused to give up their own currency.
Britain's past experience with European alliances has been mixed, at best. Alliances with continent nations got Britain into World War One. I recently toured Flanders Fields, near Ypres Belgium. Over 300,000 British died there, and exactly what that sacrifice did for the average Brit, I am unsure.
They were willing to fight to the last person to avoid being absorbed into a Germany dominated continental Europe in World War Two. Yet, after the war was over, they joined the Common Market, which has evolved into a loss of sovereignty and the ability to make one's own decisions on issues important to Brits. What would Churchill have thought?
Britain is not going to float off to sea, out of contact with the Continent. I foresee a future, more limited relationship, with cooperation where it makes sense, and sovereign decision making where, in their own wisdom, they are better off going it alone. This is not the end of the world. But it does represent change. Perhaps macro-economic maximization must give way to the less tangible feelings of well being of one's citizens, who want to be in control of their own ship.
Britain's past experience with European alliances has been mixed, at best. Alliances with continent nations got Britain into World War One. I recently toured Flanders Fields, near Ypres Belgium. Over 300,000 British died there, and exactly what that sacrifice did for the average Brit, I am unsure.
They were willing to fight to the last person to avoid being absorbed into a Germany dominated continental Europe in World War Two. Yet, after the war was over, they joined the Common Market, which has evolved into a loss of sovereignty and the ability to make one's own decisions on issues important to Brits. What would Churchill have thought?
Britain is not going to float off to sea, out of contact with the Continent. I foresee a future, more limited relationship, with cooperation where it makes sense, and sovereign decision making where, in their own wisdom, they are better off going it alone. This is not the end of the world. But it does represent change. Perhaps macro-economic maximization must give way to the less tangible feelings of well being of one's citizens, who want to be in control of their own ship.
16
Not really. Back in the Ice Age, it was attached to the continent, and then there was an intermediate period when a "Dogland" existed between Britain and Scandinavia. Trade between communities was still possible. It's hard to go it alone as a small island compared to a united Europe and its enormous trade market. These are no longer the days of the British empire, and so England may fade.
1
Maybe the citizens of the UK don't want to become a third world country.
25
Or, maybe they just did. As a student of humanity, it IS an interesting day, isn't it? Who knows if this is a smart move or not? Perhaps England is insulating itself from some future grim downturn? We had the Bamboo Curtain, now it's the "Crumpet Curtain"! But today it certainly may be the tolling bell signaling the End of the British Empire, because Scotland and Ireland don't plan to leave the EU, just England and Wales and Northern Ireland do. Pffffht! It's Splitsville for Britain? I especially loved those voting 'pensioners' who didn't 'need' the money of the EU. Exactly where did they think their old age pensioneering was sourced from? A truly amazing day. I can't wait to see what happens next chapter!
2
They have a funny way of showing it. Or maybe it's just a mistaken/misled way. This vote makes it a lot more likely that's where they are headed.
Pretty soon their economy will be in free fall, and they will be a third world country.
1
Whoever votes for Trump is voting "... against those who wield power, wealth and privilege, ...". Whether you like or hate him, a vote for Trump is a vote against the status quo. Trump has already severely damaged the Republican elite, and if elected, he could destroy what remains. This would be a good thing. Meanwhile, the Democrat elite are trying to ignore the healthy support given by voters to Bernie Sanders. They, too, are doomed.
It is interesting that we are seeing a transatlantic rebellion against the union of the political and financial elites. Good for us! Voting counts!
It is interesting that we are seeing a transatlantic rebellion against the union of the political and financial elites. Good for us! Voting counts!
9
It is very easy to destroy the status quo. Making things better is good bit harder. If you have no idea what you are doing, maybe you should spend a little time gathering facts and becoming educated before you jump off the cliff.
3
For a newspaper that complains about conservative's fear mongering, there sure is a lot of it vis a vis the Brexit vote.
11
This is another great reformation led by the mainstream this time.
Now it's time for the state of Texas to take the big leap and vote to leave the USA.
11
It would certainly make a similar amount of sense. Basically, none.
2
It will work out. I am more interested in the next big breakup - the "Texit" - when Rick Perry and his friends finally decide to make good on their threats and have Texas secede from the Union. Why wait? Out here in the Golden State we're all for it!
19
If leqving the "EU" is a leap ijnto the dark, then staying in the "EU" is staying in the dark, chained to others who are disturbed in a stinking swamp that is up to your neck and rsing slowly.
17
Here, it seems that the Walmart Republicans want to set their house alight just to watch the Wall Street Republicans burn.
It seems that is what just happened in (Great) Britain.
The rural and Post Industrial cities and hamlets of Great Britain wanted out, at any cost, they are already hurting.
When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose.
It seems that is what just happened in (Great) Britain.
The rural and Post Industrial cities and hamlets of Great Britain wanted out, at any cost, they are already hurting.
When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose.
22
I just watched a report about all the people in the UK that already regret or wish they could change their vote, with comments such as: "I didn't understand..", "the Pound is dropping..", "I feel misled", etc.
Such a deeply important decision with such incredible ramifications should never be decided by something as absurd as a referendum, where emotions and misunderstandings are going to be prevalent. Our founding fathers were rightfully hesitant to believe in such ways to decide important matters.
Such a deeply important decision with such incredible ramifications should never be decided by something as absurd as a referendum, where emotions and misunderstandings are going to be prevalent. Our founding fathers were rightfully hesitant to believe in such ways to decide important matters.
29
Completely agree. churchill said something like that the worst democracy advertising is a five minuts conversation with an average voter.
There is a very thin line between Democracy and Idiocracy.
So, you're saying you don't trust the people to make decisions which effect their lives profoundly. I assume you feel that the wise technocrats should make all the decisions because they know best. That's condescending, elitist and totalitarian. An excellent example of modern liberal thinking.
2
The angry, old, white Trumpists should pay very close attention to the impact the angry, old white Brexits just brought upon the UK. Which is not such a United Kingdom anymore.
Referendums have consequences.
Referendums have consequences.
16
What about the old Democrats, who quashed the desire of younger voters to have a national future in line with the Sanders vision?
4
Not quite the equivalent of electing trump, but along the same lines of shooting your knee caps
13
Accompanying this editorial with a photo of a tattered debris covered British Union Jack flag is disgusting. The Times editors will do and say anything to promote their one world vision. Fear mongering at its worst. Just like Obama.
14
Calling critics of the EU project xenophobic is patronizing in the extreme by this newspaper.
Ultimately this was a vote on sovereignty.
Ultimately this was a vote on sovereignty.
21
come on , sovereignty.
What USA has 19 trillion dollar debt, and our lenders are not capitulating us, what sovereignty.
What does trade means for you?
If that is true , only sovereign people is living in this world are Andaman island people. as of 2016 they do not have any contact with modern world , none ,zilch, nada.
What USA has 19 trillion dollar debt, and our lenders are not capitulating us, what sovereignty.
What does trade means for you?
If that is true , only sovereign people is living in this world are Andaman island people. as of 2016 they do not have any contact with modern world , none ,zilch, nada.
The Perils of Democracy--
" I don't believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance"
-Thomas Carlyle
" I don't believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance"
-Thomas Carlyle
12
Cheers for the British. They show the courage totally lacking here, where people are willing, in spite of the known illegitimacy of Hillary Clinton as a candidate, Americans say they're still willing to vote for her. She's a criminal. As we approach the 4th of July we should remember that this country wasn't founded in voting for crooks. If we go that way we're doomed--it will show we lack morality. Hooray for the Brits, and pooh to us, the cowards.
13
The fact that after the calamity of 2008 the editorial board of the NY Times can use the terms 'economic probity' to describe on the casino banking system going on in the UK (and in the US as well) and mean it, makes it evident why they are shocked at what happened in the UK. Wake up world! We have had enough!
9
We will see if all of the folks who cheer bravo now to the British exit from the EU when retirement and 401k Statements start coming in. The idea that we can somehow eliminate the global economy is absurd. All Britain did today was choose not to participate and make markets unstable. I don't think when negotiating trade agreements with it's former EU partners, those partners, including the big one of Germany are going to feel like they want or need to be too generous. Not to mention that Scotland and N. Ireland voted to stay which makes me wonder about another independence vote when would even further weaken their economy. It is a big gamble. Every financial expert in the world that I have read on the subject has stated that this is a terrible idea for Britain, only time will tell.
9
UK voters don’t understand Brexit, Google searches suggest
"What happens if we leave the EU?" and "What is Brexit?" become top search terms.
http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2016/06/brexit-google-search-trends...
It appears that Brexit voters are as ignorant as Trump voters. Shocking that such voters are so numerous on both sides of The Pond. The phenomenon could be linked directly to Murdoch-style Fox Propaganda that passes as news. The Brits are drowning in deliberate disinformation like we Americans. Brexit is the devastating outcome in the UK. We cannot allow Trump to reach the White House in the same manner.
"What happens if we leave the EU?" and "What is Brexit?" become top search terms.
http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2016/06/brexit-google-search-trends...
It appears that Brexit voters are as ignorant as Trump voters. Shocking that such voters are so numerous on both sides of The Pond. The phenomenon could be linked directly to Murdoch-style Fox Propaganda that passes as news. The Brits are drowning in deliberate disinformation like we Americans. Brexit is the devastating outcome in the UK. We cannot allow Trump to reach the White House in the same manner.
15
Not could be. Is.
This editorial is quite patronizing toward the British voter, don't get your panties all in a twist over Brexit, the UK will do just fine as a sovereign nation again. The present market turmoil is just the plutocrats sticking it to the little people again, including well know forex speculators cashing in their bets. The markets will settle down and rise again, as they do.
This can be seen as a states rights issue, where the unwashed majority has decided to cast aside excessive layers of oppressive government. More government isn’t always better, especially when it is ineffective and keeps the plebeians enslaved and the plutocrats in power. The irony that a plurality of Scots favor secession from the UK but support the European Community is not lost with this vote.
Britain has historically and to this day punched above it’s size and will continue to do so. American politics requires a similar shake-up, this is British Bernie Sanders moment, here in the USA only Sanders offers an alternative to the corrupt status quo, he remains a promise unrealized but who’s time, whether as Bernie, or some other freedom loving egalitarian, will come.
This can be seen as a states rights issue, where the unwashed majority has decided to cast aside excessive layers of oppressive government. More government isn’t always better, especially when it is ineffective and keeps the plebeians enslaved and the plutocrats in power. The irony that a plurality of Scots favor secession from the UK but support the European Community is not lost with this vote.
Britain has historically and to this day punched above it’s size and will continue to do so. American politics requires a similar shake-up, this is British Bernie Sanders moment, here in the USA only Sanders offers an alternative to the corrupt status quo, he remains a promise unrealized but who’s time, whether as Bernie, or some other freedom loving egalitarian, will come.
19
pssst! Bernie lost.
Deal with it
Deal with it
1
Is it possible for liberals to make a political argument on the issue of immigration without resort to the words 'racist' 'bigoted' or 'xenophobic?' Seems it is not, and if so-called elites - a label to be equally disdained as vague and inapt - fail to excise such unnecessary language from political advocacy, the 'people' will continue to 'revolt' against the 'establishment,' to the benefit of symbols of the same (see Trump, Donald) and the detriment of all.
16
Life advice: when making life-changing decisions, fear is often your worst guide. Isolation and self-defeat have won today and Britain foisted it entirely upon itself.
9
An American, I attended college in the UK, worked and lived abroad in Europe, but would never have expected this.
Now this Cohen quote has put a shiver down my spine.
"For Americans, a related question is whether the success of the “leave” voters – a group eerily similar to Donald Trump’s followers, motivated by many of the same frustrations and angers – presages a Trump victory."
The "keep calm and carry on" nation has done an impulsive thing against self interest. The warnings were dire of taking this step. The under 40's feel betrayed by their cantankerous elders gambling with their futures.
Will we do the same and fall for Trumpism -shooting ourselves in the foot as a now infamous UK cartoon portrays?
Scapegoating the "others" as shorthand for the complex effects of globalization does not solve the issues it has raised.
Is Bill Maher right and we are all too dumb to govern ourselves?
Now this Cohen quote has put a shiver down my spine.
"For Americans, a related question is whether the success of the “leave” voters – a group eerily similar to Donald Trump’s followers, motivated by many of the same frustrations and angers – presages a Trump victory."
The "keep calm and carry on" nation has done an impulsive thing against self interest. The warnings were dire of taking this step. The under 40's feel betrayed by their cantankerous elders gambling with their futures.
Will we do the same and fall for Trumpism -shooting ourselves in the foot as a now infamous UK cartoon portrays?
Scapegoating the "others" as shorthand for the complex effects of globalization does not solve the issues it has raised.
Is Bill Maher right and we are all too dumb to govern ourselves?
13
Joanna, Take heart. Your elders created you and your future, it might not be so wise to dismiss them so quickly. As for being frustrated and angry, that is where change is created. A group of citizens wants its needs addressed for a change. Whether or not the world implodes remains to be seen.
What a rude awakening these short-sighted people are in for. Guess what? The rich and global elite will be just fine. You mistake their prestige for their power. Who will lose? The lower and middle classes. The self-satisfaction of throwing a middle finger to the ruling institutions will last about a day. And then what? Well at least they won't be able to blame the EU.
12
What possibly could a low income person in UK have to lose...at least now they can stop the endless flow of immigrants.
2
First of all -- as Americans, who are we to decry the decision of the British on their decision?
One can only wish them...and the rest of the world...Good Luck!
Especially as we ourselves are also standing on the brink of an election decision that will either deliver us, or send us crashing down into a "dangerous unknown".
One can only wish them...and the rest of the world...Good Luck!
Especially as we ourselves are also standing on the brink of an election decision that will either deliver us, or send us crashing down into a "dangerous unknown".
11
N. Smith,
I take the welling up of the "dangerous unknown" to be what will happen if either Hillary or Donald is elected.
I have no idea what the supposedly progressive Hillary, with her new public support from neocons such as Richard Armitage, will do. I suspect she'll follow her historic inclination and drift to the political right, gathering in more conservative votes at the expense of progressives. It will be easier for Hillary to dump progressives in favor of conservatives. And why should she care if its conservatives that put her in the White House. For her, winning is winning.
From the beginning, nobody has had any idea of what Trump would do and that hasn't changed.
Take your choice, a pretend progressive Hillary who must be delighted to see that she can stop pretending and support the wealthy and powerful or the clueless Trump who can't stop pretending about anything.
In choosing between Hillary and Donald, there's no avoiding the "dangerous unknown."
I take the welling up of the "dangerous unknown" to be what will happen if either Hillary or Donald is elected.
I have no idea what the supposedly progressive Hillary, with her new public support from neocons such as Richard Armitage, will do. I suspect she'll follow her historic inclination and drift to the political right, gathering in more conservative votes at the expense of progressives. It will be easier for Hillary to dump progressives in favor of conservatives. And why should she care if its conservatives that put her in the White House. For her, winning is winning.
From the beginning, nobody has had any idea of what Trump would do and that hasn't changed.
Take your choice, a pretend progressive Hillary who must be delighted to see that she can stop pretending and support the wealthy and powerful or the clueless Trump who can't stop pretending about anything.
In choosing between Hillary and Donald, there's no avoiding the "dangerous unknown."
1
I, for one, see no possibility of deliverance in our coming electoral choices. The choice we must make is the problem because the candidates are awful.
1
The most frightening aspect of yielding to a popular vote to make critical decisions is gravely flawed.
The United Kingdom has reigned for over 1000 years and sudden pandering to the rightwing insanity of greedy leaders hoping to enrich their coffers, is no safer than avoiding the discipline of a sublamtive Religion to create a sense of Good, of Right and of Wrong.
These values grow from disciplines, and to fly in the face of discipline is to advocate for the dissolution of Civilization, itself.
The United Kingdom has reigned for over 1000 years and sudden pandering to the rightwing insanity of greedy leaders hoping to enrich their coffers, is no safer than avoiding the discipline of a sublamtive Religion to create a sense of Good, of Right and of Wrong.
These values grow from disciplines, and to fly in the face of discipline is to advocate for the dissolution of Civilization, itself.
3
57% of voters aged 55 and older voted to leave the EU. On the other side, younger Brits between 18 and 34 voted to stay. I am 67 and ashamed to see the older voters going against the future generation of Britain. I think you are a selfish crowd.
14
Next is a Scottish exit from the UK. The "little Englanders" will find a very little England, indeed.
10
To be followed by the Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Wales....
2
Of course, neither the Times editorial board nor Roger Cohen mentions the self-righteous bumbling and unnecessary intrusiveness of the Brussels bureaucrats, such as dictating the permissible size of a hairdryer. But the Times, being good Democrats, have always liked that sort of thing.
11
I don't know why only 2% of the people can inflict such a dramatic change. If we don't like our presidents policies we can change the players every 4 years and not be so disruptive. Seems to me Brexit should have had maybe a minimum spread of 10% or more before implementation. Now, 750,000 or so just moved the world
4
"the political, economic and security institutions of the West are solid and flexible, and with time they will adjust to the new reality"
That sounds like whistling in the dark to me.
That sounds like whistling in the dark to me.
3
Interestingly, in the whole discussion, nobody seems to have reminded the British electorate - mostly in England - that they voted for the elites of whom they allegedly want to be rid. Sort of like the Trump voters, who should have directed their anger at the Tea Party and other hard line Republicans who created the dysfunction in American politics, but rather turned to a candidate who would destroy the economy and the national values in his ignorance.
I just hope that the Anglophiles and Loyalists here in the USA don't decide to be gentle with the Brits as they disrupt our own economic situation. They made their bed; now let them lay in it.
In a world in which the Asian economies and markets are now asserting their reach and power, it does not bode well for the European Union if it further breaks apart as some predict.
I just hope that the Anglophiles and Loyalists here in the USA don't decide to be gentle with the Brits as they disrupt our own economic situation. They made their bed; now let them lay in it.
In a world in which the Asian economies and markets are now asserting their reach and power, it does not bode well for the European Union if it further breaks apart as some predict.
7
A probable strategy by the EU brass will be to increase tensions with Russia by supporting even more strongly NATO's eastward expansion. Nothing better than creating a 'foreign' threat to maintain power.
I miss in this Editorial even the most minimal understanding of the effects of the EU utopia on the citizens of European countries. As if people have been blind and did not see the crushing of Greece under both the euro and the Bruxelles enforced austerity. Implying that Brexit is almost identical with 'xenophobia' is very much off the mark, and an illustration of the Editors distance to the EU realities.
I miss in this Editorial even the most minimal understanding of the effects of the EU utopia on the citizens of European countries. As if people have been blind and did not see the crushing of Greece under both the euro and the Bruxelles enforced austerity. Implying that Brexit is almost identical with 'xenophobia' is very much off the mark, and an illustration of the Editors distance to the EU realities.
10
"Prime Minister David Cameron, who foolishly called the referendum largely as a ploy to deal with political problems in his party..."
This is an "EU"-fanatics fairy story. I have seen it repeatedly including twice in the last 24 hours in the German media.
At the last "EU"-elections, UKIP was the largest British party in the "EU"-parliament.
Cameron had to offer a referendum to deal with the possibility that his party would be swept aside at the General Election.
Once he had done that, our ludicrous voting system bullied UKIP voters into votind Conservative to prevent the Labour Party from getting into power.
The Labour Party would have denied us our referendum
Have to go because of the lightning
This is an "EU"-fanatics fairy story. I have seen it repeatedly including twice in the last 24 hours in the German media.
At the last "EU"-elections, UKIP was the largest British party in the "EU"-parliament.
Cameron had to offer a referendum to deal with the possibility that his party would be swept aside at the General Election.
Once he had done that, our ludicrous voting system bullied UKIP voters into votind Conservative to prevent the Labour Party from getting into power.
The Labour Party would have denied us our referendum
Have to go because of the lightning
3
I personally feel that this exit is a huge mistake and may have a horrid impact on GB. Time will tell but in the meantime, things will not go well. So sad.
3
Wrong. thing will go swimmingly expecting that Boris Johnson soon rises to PM.
Jeremy Corbyn, the UK's Donald Trump (minus any pizazz) showed himself as otiose as everyone feared.
Jeremy Corbyn, the UK's Donald Trump (minus any pizazz) showed himself as otiose as everyone feared.
The ability to again determine what is best for your country is now being called "dangerous".
The true danger is slowly drowning in the EU swamp of beuracrats, red tape and the " common good for the EU"
GB will be just fine, and I'm sure in a few years, stronger and more free than ever before.
Well done GB!
The true danger is slowly drowning in the EU swamp of beuracrats, red tape and the " common good for the EU"
GB will be just fine, and I'm sure in a few years, stronger and more free than ever before.
Well done GB!
14
If only these poor English and Welsh commoners understood the world as well as the NYT editorial board, the world would be a better place. If only the average person could understand how shipping your jobs overseas really helps your family live a better life, and how unbridled immigration helps you, and how turning over some of your national sovereignty is somehow more respected for being a team player, then votes like this might end. Alas, the poor fools. It is a good thing we have ivory tower, worldly intellectuals in New York to explain it.
48
While it is sad that Britain has left, this is yet another sign that people are saying loudly and clearly, "The status quo will not do."
The status quo and status quo politicians (hello Hillary) are being put on notice.
The EU was a wonderful idea, but the way it was implemented - with its benighted neoliberal economic policies - has been a disaster for most of its countries. Just look at Greece.
Instead of coming to Greece's aid, the EU (mostly Germany) has decided to strangle Greece economically. This is not the sign of a functioning union. Greece needs to leave the EU now as well. And when it does so, the EU will be over.
This is not to say that some form of European Union isn't a good idea. It would be to everyone's advantage for Europe to be unified. But it must be done on sensible policies, i.e. not those of the benighted neoliberal economic class which has been driving Europe into the ground.
In order to understand the problem and the solutions I submit once again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YhrtktLQQw
The status quo and status quo politicians (hello Hillary) are being put on notice.
The EU was a wonderful idea, but the way it was implemented - with its benighted neoliberal economic policies - has been a disaster for most of its countries. Just look at Greece.
Instead of coming to Greece's aid, the EU (mostly Germany) has decided to strangle Greece economically. This is not the sign of a functioning union. Greece needs to leave the EU now as well. And when it does so, the EU will be over.
This is not to say that some form of European Union isn't a good idea. It would be to everyone's advantage for Europe to be unified. But it must be done on sensible policies, i.e. not those of the benighted neoliberal economic class which has been driving Europe into the ground.
In order to understand the problem and the solutions I submit once again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YhrtktLQQw
9
A Europe made up of independent, sovereign nations, each pursuing their own agendas? When has that ever gone wrong?
10
I will miss Europe.
The media--American/European--made the same mistake they made with Trump: Believing what they read in the press and ignoring an angry polis.
More important, the Brits are "paving" the way out of Brussels. There will be more who will follow.
More important, the Brits are "paving" the way out of Brussels. There will be more who will follow.
5
So many armchair quarterbacks who think they know better than others. Fascinating presumption and fascinating projection of intentions of others.
10
WE don't DO "major feats of leadership by financial and political institutions in Britain and on both sides of the Atlantic" any more, and haven't for a very long time. This is one reason why today dawned as it did. Here at home we should take note of the wages of gridlock, divisiveness, fecklessness, self-indulgence, nativism and naked partisanship for no higher purpose than partisanship itself.
Great Britain just awarded itself isolation from a larger universe and our GOP has given itself Donald Trump. Lord forbid that the infection should spread to our whole country. Today, the odds got greater that it might.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Great Britain just awarded itself isolation from a larger universe and our GOP has given itself Donald Trump. Lord forbid that the infection should spread to our whole country. Today, the odds got greater that it might.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
7
Lets see if I understand this.
England is retreating to its isolation as an "Island Nation".
In Europe we have Germany increasingly becoming the dominant force.
Xenophobia is on the rise everywhere.
Does anyone notice a familiar tone?
Do we have to bail Great Britain out again?
Can we?
England is retreating to its isolation as an "Island Nation".
In Europe we have Germany increasingly becoming the dominant force.
Xenophobia is on the rise everywhere.
Does anyone notice a familiar tone?
Do we have to bail Great Britain out again?
Can we?
2
The British who voted to exit EU may live long enough to justify their vote, but the economic benefits of departure promised by UKIPP and Nigel Farage are illusory and will remain so. Eventually, those voters will just have to explain what is, by every rational measure, one of the worst economic moves an entire nation could voluntarily make. Maybe when the effects of departure affect such things as the mechanics and costs of getting to and from a European Cup football championship, supporters will begin to get the idea that this vote is a short term economic disaster promising long term uncertainty.
I am inclined to believe that the vote to leave EU was not really a vote cast in opposition to economic measures imposed by EU, or to resurrect the pound Sterling, or to staunch the costs of belonging to the EU because with tariffs and other charges, those costs will remain even while making Britain a far less competitive nation. Rather, the vote was strictly a vote to spite foreigners, to diminish the presence of racial minorities in England, and to give flight to whimsy where in the midst of a campaign the British versions of Donald Trump could fantasize about the British empire. Anger at economic disparities was a convenient (but true) way was to express support for Brexit without having to appear to be racist in public.
I am inclined to believe that the vote to leave EU was not really a vote cast in opposition to economic measures imposed by EU, or to resurrect the pound Sterling, or to staunch the costs of belonging to the EU because with tariffs and other charges, those costs will remain even while making Britain a far less competitive nation. Rather, the vote was strictly a vote to spite foreigners, to diminish the presence of racial minorities in England, and to give flight to whimsy where in the midst of a campaign the British versions of Donald Trump could fantasize about the British empire. Anger at economic disparities was a convenient (but true) way was to express support for Brexit without having to appear to be racist in public.
5
A far simpler explanation is available. "Without having to appear to be racist in public"...is not it. Ask Merkel. If honest, she can let you in on the secret.
Considering England's history iof roaming the world for the past four or five hundred years and settling in wherever they chose via military might, it's odd to seem the English so anti immigrants settling in their native country. I hope the beautiful English country side never changes, but are they kidding about taking umbrage at foreigners coming to live in their country and spoiling their views and villages. Ask the Irish about that. Hypocrisy, thy name is England.
7
I hope the beautiful English country side never changes,
you cant have unlimited imm and an unchanging countryside
england is a small country, already w 60, 000, 000 in it
you cant have unlimited imm and an unchanging countryside
england is a small country, already w 60, 000, 000 in it
1
The colonists all died off a hundred years ago. There are more people of Irish extract living in England than there are Irish living in Ireland. We can't rewrite history this side of the pond any more than you can undo the damage done to native Americans that took place after your war of independence.
The young wanted to stay. Now their future has been altered by those who will not see it.
4
"Their future" was worthless in the hands of the continental elites. Perhaps they can make a go of it themselves.
2
It is disheartening to read the Times' characterize Cameron's decision to hold a referendum as "foolish." Yes, the outcome is not what most would have hoped for. But are we really at the point where a democratic vote by a country's electorate is best characterized as "foolish"? To paraphrase Winston Churchill, what, after all, are the alternatives?
7
Part of the reason we have representative government, which often sadly fails to represent, is to leave critical decisions to our representatives who in theory have the time and wherewithal to at least understand what they are voting for. In Britain, today, Google searches for "what is the EU" surged. I'll grant you that a republic often seems inferior to a democracy, but it was not necessary for this critical decision to depend on popular vote.
2
'...a cry of anger and frustration...against those who wield power, wealth and privilege...they felt was squeezing them out.' Yes, and worse. Not just squeezing them out; hurting them, their families, their loved ones. The power 'elite' is set-up with funds to get through any crisis; the rest of us are not. The power 'elite' tell us everything will work out; but it doesn't, except is you're part of their gang. No, this is actually human nature coming home: why should a few have such largess, while most of us struggle so? I'm sure xenophobia was a reason for many, but the basic reason was survival in a cold, calculating, plutocratic world. This vote actually gives me hope that the common citizen can try to create a better state in regards to equality of condition. The 'elite' show no interest in that. They have been bitten by the vampire of greed, and thus, are now the vampire themselves.
4
It was harder to get British out of their colonies than EU.
2
Blame Merkel and Hollande, not the British people. Germany and France have treated the rest of Europe like their own personal playground. Well the playground got a little smaller now. OK, a lot smaller. And with other countries bolting soon will diminish even more.
7
Congrats to the Brits. They understood the importance of language, borders and culture, unlike Obama and Clinton.
12
Henny Penny - The Sky is falling!
What Hogwash - this will turn out to be one of the best things for British citizens. Does anyone really think they are interested in paying for mulitple bailouts of failed nations likes Greece, Portugal, etc.?
And a one day drop in financial markets is an opportunity to buy things oversold by algos.
Now that the pound and euro will lose value against the dollar - I look forward to visiting the UK and France and spending my money there.
Congrats to the citizens of the UK - you have taken a bold step forward!
What Hogwash - this will turn out to be one of the best things for British citizens. Does anyone really think they are interested in paying for mulitple bailouts of failed nations likes Greece, Portugal, etc.?
And a one day drop in financial markets is an opportunity to buy things oversold by algos.
Now that the pound and euro will lose value against the dollar - I look forward to visiting the UK and France and spending my money there.
Congrats to the citizens of the UK - you have taken a bold step forward!
9
It is the Greeks who should be Grexiting. German control of the Euro is preventing them from exiting their problems via a cheap drachma. Grexit may be nexit.
Well, Angela Merkel will have one less place to ship her millions of un-vetted economic migrants.
12
" Defying the warnings of every major economic and political institution in Britain, Europe and the United States, millions of voters across Britain concluded that a gamble on a dangerous unknown was better than staying with a present over which they felt they had lost control."
Really? Do you really think that? What about the 45th President of the United States, Donald Trump? Do you (still) consider him "minor"?
Really? Do you really think that? What about the 45th President of the United States, Donald Trump? Do you (still) consider him "minor"?
4
I think he is the very definition of minor.
4
A vote for Scottish independence would surely pass now, with Scotland joining the EU in a heartbeat.
May also be true of Northern Ireland.
"Great Britain" may soon find itself as "Merry Old England" and not so merry Wales.
May also be true of Northern Ireland.
"Great Britain" may soon find itself as "Merry Old England" and not so merry Wales.
4
Dear mjohns,
From a fiscal point of view I am pretty sure the English would not miss the economic basket case that is Northern Ireland that much. Scotland would be a bit more or loss, but North Sea oilfields have been on the decline for years, which leaves the Scottish with...Scotch, some banking and ....
England would be at least fiscally better off without both of those countries.
From a fiscal point of view I am pretty sure the English would not miss the economic basket case that is Northern Ireland that much. Scotland would be a bit more or loss, but North Sea oilfields have been on the decline for years, which leaves the Scottish with...Scotch, some banking and ....
England would be at least fiscally better off without both of those countries.
1
Brexit may foreshadow a Donald Trump victory in November (a nightmare scenario.) Here's why:
Prior to the actual referendum, "Remain" actually polled higher than "Leave." Vast majority of young Britons particularly favored remain, along with most people in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Brexit was actually dismissed as an unlikely scenario because polling made "Leave" look like a minority position. However, some analysts also warned that young people, historically, are not disciplined voters. They may support a position, but that support may not translate into votes because those young people simply do not turn up at the polls.
Considering how close the Brexit results were, it's probable that if more young people had turned up to vote, the outcome may have been different.
Trump polls more highly among older, white Americans. In 2016, this doesn't look like a demographic that can achieve electoral victory by itself. But older, white Americans have historically been disciplined voters. Whereas young voters, lower income minority voters, historically have not been. Add into the mix the Republican Party's efforts in voter suppression, and you may have a recipe for a Trump victory.
Prior to the actual referendum, "Remain" actually polled higher than "Leave." Vast majority of young Britons particularly favored remain, along with most people in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Brexit was actually dismissed as an unlikely scenario because polling made "Leave" look like a minority position. However, some analysts also warned that young people, historically, are not disciplined voters. They may support a position, but that support may not translate into votes because those young people simply do not turn up at the polls.
Considering how close the Brexit results were, it's probable that if more young people had turned up to vote, the outcome may have been different.
Trump polls more highly among older, white Americans. In 2016, this doesn't look like a demographic that can achieve electoral victory by itself. But older, white Americans have historically been disciplined voters. Whereas young voters, lower income minority voters, historically have not been. Add into the mix the Republican Party's efforts in voter suppression, and you may have a recipe for a Trump victory.
56
No Brexit makes sense for a country that wants to make its own decisions.
Trump is still an oportunistic bombast.
Trump is still an oportunistic bombast.
2
All the Republicans need to do to elect Trump is to invite Benjamin Netanyahu and a bunch of other foreign heads of state to wag their fingers at Americans and tell them they should vote for Hillary. That will have the same effect as our heads of state presuming they could wag their fingers in British voters noses and tell them they ought to vote to stay in the EU. We can thank American neocon hubris for contributing to yesterday's outcome.
The trickle-down economics of Reagan have long been derided by the same elites who champion the trade policies of NAFTA, TTP, and the EU. They argue that such agreements benefit a nation's economy as a whole. What they won't admit is that these trade deals are just trickle-down economics by another name. Most of the wealth goes to those at the top, leaving a minor portion to trickle down to the hollowed-out middle and lower classes.
The people who voted for Brexit, and Sanders and, to some extent, Trump don't need to be told this. As for the beneficence of the E.U. and its greatest champion, Germany, ask the Greek people about that.
The people who voted for Brexit, and Sanders and, to some extent, Trump don't need to be told this. As for the beneficence of the E.U. and its greatest champion, Germany, ask the Greek people about that.
8
Globalism needs to be revisited. The only ones who have benefited from it are the wealthy and large corporations to the detriment of the working class whose wages continue to stagnate.
Globalism and international trade agreements are certainly reasons why Brexit succeeded. Workers have seen through the lies that globalism, trade agreements, etc would redound to their benefit in the long run.
Globalism and international trade agreements are certainly reasons why Brexit succeeded. Workers have seen through the lies that globalism, trade agreements, etc would redound to their benefit in the long run.
9
Donald Trump, in his all-embracing ignorance, has praised Britain's exit from the EU and taken credit for predicting it (surprise!). No doubt he does so without a clue as to exactly what the implications of the exit are. After all, his wealth is based primarily upon real estate investments, not on the stock market or international trade. So why should he care. Apparently, he has little awareness, or concern, with how his remarks may sound to the millions of Americans whose retirement savings have been drastically affected by the BREXIT, or for the damage that will result to the economies of western Europe and the US.
3
Trump is very unpopular over here. Most people voting for Brexit wouldn't want to be associated with him
4
And he's really pumped by the plunging pound....now cheaper to travel to his golf course.
The British majority voted for individual liberty instead of subservience to an overbearing state.
The same may happen here in November. The Republicans just need to dump Trump at the convention to make it happen.
The same may happen here in November. The Republicans just need to dump Trump at the convention to make it happen.
3
Building on this enlightening Editorial, we must delve beyond aggregate data to assess the finer bi-modal facts showing a significant skewed preference of the youth to remain in the EU. Once the unwary soft pro-exit voters, who tilted the balance for the Leave option, realize the grave consequences of their action, the backlash against populism already brewing in social media is bound to grow. Also the new uncertainty may spur a cathartic momentum for a stronger EU.
Those among us who work for solidarity across borders should never lose hope. The EU has lost a major battle, as George Washington did many times prior to Yorktown. But from a historic perspective, this referendum is a mere impediment, rich in lessons, in the long and irreversible march to build a united, peaceful, prosperous and exemplary European Union and a better world.
As for the domestic scene, American-election results have, in the past, frequently been event driven. What happens between now and November can tilt the results either way. Lacking financial support, Trump could soon be a lane duck. But all bets are off if a terror event takes place on the eve of the elections or if Mrs. Clinton is indicted, both are remote possibilities for now. There is also the likelihood that leading Republicans who yearn to build a peaceful world for current and future generations may embark on an altruistic nation-building mission and steer away a critical mass of voters from the regressive trumpmania,
Those among us who work for solidarity across borders should never lose hope. The EU has lost a major battle, as George Washington did many times prior to Yorktown. But from a historic perspective, this referendum is a mere impediment, rich in lessons, in the long and irreversible march to build a united, peaceful, prosperous and exemplary European Union and a better world.
As for the domestic scene, American-election results have, in the past, frequently been event driven. What happens between now and November can tilt the results either way. Lacking financial support, Trump could soon be a lane duck. But all bets are off if a terror event takes place on the eve of the elections or if Mrs. Clinton is indicted, both are remote possibilities for now. There is also the likelihood that leading Republicans who yearn to build a peaceful world for current and future generations may embark on an altruistic nation-building mission and steer away a critical mass of voters from the regressive trumpmania,
1
Stay in a relationship that feels humiliating or take a leap into the unknown? That sounds like every empowerment book that is being peddled these days.
12
"Britain Leaves on a Cry of Anger and Frustration"
Americans are pretty angry and frustrated too. As our alternative to Clown Prince Trump, our Royal-Insider Media have prematurely crowned the Queen of the Money-Insider Royalty that We The People are rising up against.
But wait!
The Democrat super-lemmings still have a month to awaken -- to nominate Bernie, the candidate who will lead the struggle to take America back from our Royalty. Restore America to The People.
Americans are pretty angry and frustrated too. As our alternative to Clown Prince Trump, our Royal-Insider Media have prematurely crowned the Queen of the Money-Insider Royalty that We The People are rising up against.
But wait!
The Democrat super-lemmings still have a month to awaken -- to nominate Bernie, the candidate who will lead the struggle to take America back from our Royalty. Restore America to The People.
5
Jeepers. You'd have thought that President Obama's warning that Britain would "go to the back of the queue" on trade deals with America would have motivated the Brits to remain in the EU.
How could such a rhetorical tour de force have failed to do the trick?
How could such a rhetorical tour de force have failed to do the trick?
9
Dear LibertyHound,
You're right how could the British voters have not listened up to the inviolate wisdom of the President of the United States of America. I am sure, like most other country's around the world, they probably have had a belly full of American President's lecturing them on how they should run their country.
You're right how could the British voters have not listened up to the inviolate wisdom of the President of the United States of America. I am sure, like most other country's around the world, they probably have had a belly full of American President's lecturing them on how they should run their country.
1
Once again the Anti-Democratic left is having a snit.
The people of the UK have exercised their rights. We should respect the choice instead of an imperialistic view that they are somehow less evolved because they did not do what the NYTimes thinks they should have.
For the people of the UK. We have long been allies & friends. So, it is incumbent on the US to accept your rightful decision and adapt to maintain or special relationship.
Let Democracy reign.
The people of the UK have exercised their rights. We should respect the choice instead of an imperialistic view that they are somehow less evolved because they did not do what the NYTimes thinks they should have.
For the people of the UK. We have long been allies & friends. So, it is incumbent on the US to accept your rightful decision and adapt to maintain or special relationship.
Let Democracy reign.
17
The world is still at the "Is this for real?" stage.
The next UK referendum of interest: Will Scotland secede to stay in the EU?
The next UK referendum of interest: Will Scotland secede to stay in the EU?
3
Scotland is an economic beggar. Secede from the UK and who will subsidize them? Is the EU really looking for another economic basket case?
3
Dear Mr. Bolger,
From a fiscal point of view England and Wales would be better off without Scotland and especially Northern Ireland. Scotland's oil fields have been depleting for years and what is left for them, some banking...scotch...tourism...not much else
From a fiscal point of view England and Wales would be better off without Scotland and especially Northern Ireland. Scotland's oil fields have been depleting for years and what is left for them, some banking...scotch...tourism...not much else
1
The New York Times debases itself by adopting such inflammatory language. This decision is not "xenophobia" ... It constitutes a legitimate, democratically - articulated decision to disentangle a country from the ensnaring, unaccountable, and hugely contradictory forces of a bloated, opaque, and remote group of institutions, both private and public.
If the EU and it's "European values" are so strong, true, and self-evident, then it has nothing to fear from a member state peacefully and lawfully excusing itself from the table.
In demonizing this process what the Times and other media are promoting is hysteria and fear: exactly the tendencies it's accusing of the so-called "xenophobes".
If the EU and it's "European values" are so strong, true, and self-evident, then it has nothing to fear from a member state peacefully and lawfully excusing itself from the table.
In demonizing this process what the Times and other media are promoting is hysteria and fear: exactly the tendencies it's accusing of the so-called "xenophobes".
14
I think America should split in 2.
Democrats to the right.
Republicans to the left.
Why should 1/2 a country (170 million people) live under rules they do not agree with?
Democrats and Republicans are both unhappy.
Like a bad marriage its time to split.
Democrats to the right.
Republicans to the left.
Why should 1/2 a country (170 million people) live under rules they do not agree with?
Democrats and Republicans are both unhappy.
Like a bad marriage its time to split.
1
Then you'd see the Republican base begging the Democrats for economic relief and humanitarian immigration policies.
2
All this does is prove that capital is more easily controlled than people. If currency could vote...
As it is, the British people are taking back control and I don't see that as a bad thing.
As it is, the British people are taking back control and I don't see that as a bad thing.
8
The NYT is shooting itself in the foot with this essay.
The editorial board uses the term "xenophobic" in describing the sentiment of Britons to leave the EU -- a term meant to be insulting. It seems a majority of the populace in our favorite partner in world affairs, our closest friend, are now, in the Times view, unenlightened bigots.
That insult doesn't help our relationship; further, it is unjustified. The Brits are protecting their culture, their way of life -- as we should. The editorial board should review the multitude of heavily recommended comments decrying the NYT stand on legalizing illegal immigrants, comments from typical NYT readers, not known for right wing sentiments, and understand: We, too, wish to preserve our economy, our culture, our way of life.
And then comparing those same British Brexit supporters to Donald Trump's! Since the former were successful, that comparison allows those concerned that their supporting Trump might be viewed as a foolish eccentricity as being rather a mainstream sentiment and so entirely reasonable.
This editorial is, in summary, a mistake.
The editorial board uses the term "xenophobic" in describing the sentiment of Britons to leave the EU -- a term meant to be insulting. It seems a majority of the populace in our favorite partner in world affairs, our closest friend, are now, in the Times view, unenlightened bigots.
That insult doesn't help our relationship; further, it is unjustified. The Brits are protecting their culture, their way of life -- as we should. The editorial board should review the multitude of heavily recommended comments decrying the NYT stand on legalizing illegal immigrants, comments from typical NYT readers, not known for right wing sentiments, and understand: We, too, wish to preserve our economy, our culture, our way of life.
And then comparing those same British Brexit supporters to Donald Trump's! Since the former were successful, that comparison allows those concerned that their supporting Trump might be viewed as a foolish eccentricity as being rather a mainstream sentiment and so entirely reasonable.
This editorial is, in summary, a mistake.
14
The sky is falling, the locust are invading. Nothing is going to happen. Things will go on as usual.
5
As long as England waves the rules! (Only good can come.)
2
"Will the British precedent embolden other xenophobic movements, weakening the remaining union?" Xenophobia is the IRRATIONAL dislike or fear of other countries / cultures. To not want Muslims to become a dominant culture or religion is just pure common sense. Has anyone pontificating about this ever lived in the Middle East? Ever lived somewhere ruled by Sharia Law? Women and the gay community have worked too hard for their rights to invite in a culture that is opposed to those rights. A place where homosexuality is punished by death. Where girls are subjected to genital mutilation. Where teenage girls are married off without any say in their own well-being. Is that what we want to eventually be the norm here and in Europe? I don't and you can call me racist, Islamaphobe or xenophobic. I've seen how these cultures are first hand and over my dead body will my daughters or their daughters or future ancestors lose the freedoms we've worked so hard to achieve. This has nothing to do with skin color either. If people who are lily white held the same views, I wouldn't want to invite them into our country. Funny how people feel free to criticize (rightfully so) that delusional and dangerous Sacramento Baptist pastor who denounced the gay community after Orlando but speak out about anti-gay views of certain Muslim territories and you're deemed a racist. Can someone explain this to me?
8
Indians, the most successful and wealthiest immigrant group in the USA, make up the working class backbone of England the way Hispanics do in the US . Wonder how this impacted the breast decision.
Bless the Brits! The average citizen in Developed nations has had enough of the quality-of-life-destroying policies of the wealthy few. Let's hope the citizens of the US follow their lead.
13
Of Note:
Britain is not Europe's leading military power. Putting aside Russia, France's military is in size and technical capacity, as well as willingness to engage in conflict, superior.
Britain is not Europe's leading military power. Putting aside Russia, France's military is in size and technical capacity, as well as willingness to engage in conflict, superior.
1
After the Scottish split from the UK, English influence won't even extend to the whole of their tiny island.
5
The Times is in deep denial. The secession was largely driven by innumerable horrible failures in Brussels. But there's not one word of that in the editorial. No admission of guilt. No penitence. No sign of having learned anything.
Deep, deep denial.
Deep, deep denial.
18
It looks like an avalanche, for sure, but the uncertainty is who will be the victims. Most likely "we the people".
1
The rise of terrorism and the feeling that they were losing control of their own country certainly gave an edge to the "leave" movement.
9
The UK has been a highly successful sovereign nation for centuries. Kudos to the citizens for taking back their country. They didn't fight to the death in
WW2 only to have their country squander by illegal immigration. Bravo!
WW2 only to have their country squander by illegal immigration. Bravo!
11
It's always disappointing when a media that is supposed to inform ends up trying to be the news and tries to manipulate citizens. The NYT salaried propagandists united with the corporate elite to try to scare the Brits, and our corporate-serving politicos also tried to shame them with finger-wagging. It didn't work. In fact, the self-serving arrogance of our neocons to tell citizens of another nation how they should vote may have actually angered sufficient voters to have tipped the vote toward the exit. The result came as a shock only to those who were so foolish as to believe their own push-polls. The sky isn't falling and the Brits are a nation of resourceful people who have little in common with Trump supporters. Your efforts to influence the election failed, NYTs, so stop throwing tantrums. It's unbecoming.
12
It's time to stop calling people "racist", when we don't happen to agree with them. Were the American Indian's "racist" when they decided they didn't want the Pilgrims taking over their country?
How hard is it to understand, that after spilling their blood in both WWI and WWII, and in each case, being told that they had won great victories for their nation, that the people of England do not want to be ruled by Deutsche Bank AG?
"Trump" is not just an American phenomena, it's a reaction to a form of Internationalism that benefits the .5%, and dumps on everyone else - Brexit is England's Trump.
Both Brexit and Trump are extremely high risk, which simply echo's the extent of middle class frustration.
How hard is it to understand, that after spilling their blood in both WWI and WWII, and in each case, being told that they had won great victories for their nation, that the people of England do not want to be ruled by Deutsche Bank AG?
"Trump" is not just an American phenomena, it's a reaction to a form of Internationalism that benefits the .5%, and dumps on everyone else - Brexit is England's Trump.
Both Brexit and Trump are extremely high risk, which simply echo's the extent of middle class frustration.
18
The subtitle of this article, "A vote that weakens Europe and reshapes Britain's role as a leader of the West," is entertaining and shows little understanding of what is going on in the EU.
So, the editorial board of the NYT suggests that the EU countries will accept Great Britain, commonly referred to as the poodle of the US, as their leader? Really? Great Britain without access to the EU market will be relegated to oblivion. This was the last nail in the coffin of the British Empire.
BTW, if you look at what is going on in GB right now, you will note that many Brits had absolutely no idea that a "leave" vote was a vote to leave the EU; many don't even know what the EU is and whether membership was good for GB. Many thought it was a vote to show that they are not happy with the status quo, but a vote with little consequences. And the Scots now want a referendum to leave GB, because they prefer to be a member of the EU.
So, the editorial board of the NYT suggests that the EU countries will accept Great Britain, commonly referred to as the poodle of the US, as their leader? Really? Great Britain without access to the EU market will be relegated to oblivion. This was the last nail in the coffin of the British Empire.
BTW, if you look at what is going on in GB right now, you will note that many Brits had absolutely no idea that a "leave" vote was a vote to leave the EU; many don't even know what the EU is and whether membership was good for GB. Many thought it was a vote to show that they are not happy with the status quo, but a vote with little consequences. And the Scots now want a referendum to leave GB, because they prefer to be a member of the EU.
7
There is a lot of talk about the sudden disconnect between Britain and the EU and how to handle this. What is much more complex but not discussed anywhere is the just about 50/50 disconnect of all citizens within Britain. The Yes-Leaves against the Non-Leaves living right next to each other in homes and apartments or are sharing train and bus rides to work or jointly air-travelling for business or vacations. This whole thing is like a new cancer starting deep within the body. No doctors, scientists, or leaders to figure this one out - no treatment. The world has changed and not in a good way.
5
great observation due to the closeness of the vote. In the state of CA we cannot even vote n a parcel tax for a school district unless it wins by over 60%. That there was no such limit built into this referendum complicates the very close result.
1
This is the beginning of the "everyman revolt" in the West. The elites underestimated the power democracy provides the people. It took a long time to wake up the masses, but they are awake and it is a transatlantic movement.
8
You've got your finger on something, but it sounds like you think it is a good thing. It isn't. Too bad "everyman" woke up after television, a failed public school system, and mindless consumerism ruined his brain to the point that he doesn't know what he's doing with this new-found power. I hate to tell you this, but "throw the bums out" and "I'm mad as hell" are not political platforms. They are simply sentiments that clever puppet masters (read Trump and the Republicans who are lining up behind him) will use to usher in even worse government policies to benefit the rich. "I'm having a hard time. Therefore it must be someone else's fault." These are time-honored feelings used for centuries to win the support of the masses.
This is why "pure democracy" is a bad idea. And decisions about extremely complex economic matters should never be decided by a referendum. The average person is too easily duped and led by the ruthless.
This is why "pure democracy" is a bad idea. And decisions about extremely complex economic matters should never be decided by a referendum. The average person is too easily duped and led by the ruthless.
2
It does strike me that although Brexit was led by right wing conservatives, it was Labour heartlands in England and Wales that delivered the vote. In Scotland there are no more Labour heartlands, they all jumped ship at the last election. There's a lesson here for progressive parties; don't take your base for granted and expect them to keep voting for you because 'who else are they gonna vote for?'
77
what are you talking about? Scotland voted nearly 60-40 against Leave.
1
David Cameron "called the referendum largely as a ploy to deal with political problems in his party"!!!
Wow, what a feat of whopping idiocy that was. I think the Brexit voters were irresponsible, but I can see their point about being angry at the establishment.
Wow, what a feat of whopping idiocy that was. I think the Brexit voters were irresponsible, but I can see their point about being angry at the establishment.
3
Less than one day after the voting, markets are falling, the political order is shaking, and the globe is stunned. And this is just after a referendum without a legislative follow-up. We haven’t even begun to take in the consequences.
2
Perhaps counterintuitively,economic arguments are irrelevant to the economically disadvantaged.Those without jobs or hope need help and honesty from politicians.Sadly but predictably,they get self serving explanations and false promises which in their misery and hopelessness they cling onto.Tolerance and fairness are seen as irrelevant "luxuries"which only those near the top of Maslow's hierarchy can indulge in.To remain relevant,politicians need to focus on closing gaps and fissures growing in the West everyday.Reduce inequality through pragmatism rather than ideology or an appeal to jingoism,racism and hatred of anyone perceived to be different.
I've traveled around England, and nowhere I shopped took euros. This isn't a country where most people get six week vacations.
4
When you come right down to it what the Brits who voted to leave the EU (and the Americans supporting Trump) are really saying with their xenophobic fear driven vote is they want to go back to a time when they were a colonial empire exploiting people all around the world instead of now having to live next door to them.
5
We didn't have an empire in Europe.
The moment I started caring what Britain does was when they tanked my investments. I'd like the UK to pay me back for their irresponsibility.
4
"Voters took a gamble on a dangerous unknown."
My fear is that we will do the same here with Trump running.
People are just fed up being lied to, taken advantage of from both parties.
Republicans have lied to their people for decades, overseeing the transfer of enormous wealth from the workers to the wealthy, all the while silently whistling about 'the other' and promising to stop gays from marrying, banning of abortion, repealing of the ACA. And the BIG lie - tax cuts help everyone.
Democrats have lied about the impact of unfettered immigration, holding the banks responsible for our meltdown, reining in drug prices, income inequality, and going along with Republican tax cuts that harm everyone but the wealthy.
Voters are not left with a choice - they are left with despair. Small wonder the 'populist' movement is gaining ground.
My fear is that we will do the same here with Trump running.
People are just fed up being lied to, taken advantage of from both parties.
Republicans have lied to their people for decades, overseeing the transfer of enormous wealth from the workers to the wealthy, all the while silently whistling about 'the other' and promising to stop gays from marrying, banning of abortion, repealing of the ACA. And the BIG lie - tax cuts help everyone.
Democrats have lied about the impact of unfettered immigration, holding the banks responsible for our meltdown, reining in drug prices, income inequality, and going along with Republican tax cuts that harm everyone but the wealthy.
Voters are not left with a choice - they are left with despair. Small wonder the 'populist' movement is gaining ground.
2
England needs to control its own borders; Immigration laws are there for a reason and that reason is to protect your own culture and sovereignty. Even Australia realised this when they realised that the Indonesian corrupt officials and police were profiting off sending illegals to Australia, at the expense of Australians. When you rely on corrupt officials and nations to police your borders then you are in trouble of losing your sovereignty. The UK needed to take a stand against illegal immigration just like Australia did. Just look at all those corrupt French police and officials at the tunnel who just turned a blind eye to all the illegals hopping on the back of lorries to get to England; and most probably profited from it by taking bribes to turn a blind eye. The French don't want all those illegals in France so are going to let them through the tunnel into Great Britain. Time Great Britain had some control over their own borders.
6
"a gamble on a dangerous unknown was better than staying with a present over which they felt they had lost control. It was a cry of anger and frustration from more than half the country against those who wield power, wealth and privilege, both in their own government and in Brussels, and against global forces in a world that they felt was squeezing them out" - Sound familiar? Trump and Bernie get it. Hillary not so much. I'll vote for her as a defense against Trump, but we gloss over this at our peril.
3
Anyone who believes the British vote to leave the EU makes sense, is misguided. There are important lessons to be learned from this vote. Real politicians must do a better job of addressing immigration and global trade concerns. The British vote is a victory for fear, intolerance, mistrust and bigotry, the same conditions fueling so much concern in the coming US presidential elections. "Honest differences of views and honest debate are not disunity," wrote Herbert Hoover.
The Old Soldier!!
The Old Soldier!!
3
Pretty rich that the country that had been the largest empire in history, colonizing 38 countries around the world, is angry about immigration.
As to Trump, his support of Brexit, and the inevitable uncertainty and dislocation it will bring at least over the next few months, can only hurt him.
As to Trump, his support of Brexit, and the inevitable uncertainty and dislocation it will bring at least over the next few months, can only hurt him.
5
See it as a vote against Merkel and her "wir schaffen es"
A vote against Islam in Europe and a vote against Brussels as a central power over a vast continent with hundreds of identities and cultures. What an arrogance to think Europeans are willing to swap centuries of rich diversity for the brutalities of the Islam.
A vote against Islam in Europe and a vote against Brussels as a central power over a vast continent with hundreds of identities and cultures. What an arrogance to think Europeans are willing to swap centuries of rich diversity for the brutalities of the Islam.
6
This is perilous times although I think that many do not recognize it. Globalization and multiculturalism have created entities like EU. These international institutions were formed after WW2 and have ushered in an era of global prosperity. However, one can also argue that the elites have fallen far short by letting economic inequality grew in the last several decades. I understand that movements like Brexit and the rise of Trump are partly due to this economic injustice. However, it is also clear that many of these movements are driven by a strong current of nativism and a rejection of multiculturalism by people who see the modern world as incompatible with their own cultural identities. Historically, far right nativism leads to nationalistic conflicts and often leads to fascism. The formation of international institutions like EU, besides its economic roles, are exactly designed to promote international cooperation and understanding. With Brexit as a first step in disassembling EU and with Trump advocating US leaving NATO, this is a potential threat to international peace that we shouldn't ignore. The United State has been the center of this mostly successful post WW2 international order. It is now up to common U.S. citizens who still believe in the ideals that all people are equal and who still believe that U.S. is a force for good in the world to make sure that the center will hold this November.
3
As in the United States, especially this year, the term "anti-immigration" is little more than a synonym for racism. If nice, white (and preferably Christian) Canadians and Australians were suddenly to immigrate in large numbers to Great Britain (or Brits to the U.S.), would there be such sentiments as those expressed about "people of color," be they Hispanic or Asian? I rather doubt it.
4
You could not be more wrong. People do not like the hispanic migration because it is illegal, they have brought down the economy and they have lessened the unity of the english language. People do not like the muslim migration because they-- with cause-- fear the culture that they bring with them. Very little complaints are made about Asian immigration because there is little to fear.
5
@PJ,
So, what it has to do with "racism" ? It's religion, behavior and terrorism.
So, what it has to do with "racism" ? It's religion, behavior and terrorism.
1
This is a very brave and bold decision by the British people to take back control of their own country and future. Can anyone tell me exactly what 40,000 EU employees actually do other than draw a pay check and create ever more stiffing EU regulations which over rule the acts of the British Parliament.
I saw a BBC show a few years back which filmed the wine cellars under either the EU facility in Brussels or Strasbourg, can't remember. Thousands of bottles of fine wines to be consumed by the EU bureaucrats at the expense of the everyday bloke who works every day just to make ends meet.
A true Independence Day for a great nation and people!
I saw a BBC show a few years back which filmed the wine cellars under either the EU facility in Brussels or Strasbourg, can't remember. Thousands of bottles of fine wines to be consumed by the EU bureaucrats at the expense of the everyday bloke who works every day just to make ends meet.
A true Independence Day for a great nation and people!
13
From another story in the Times:
"Britons are among the least knowledgeable people in Europe when it comes to knowing about the European Union, according to a Eurobarometer survey conducted last year in all 28 member nations.
In a video clip widely shared on social media, one woman who voted to leave regretted her decision.
“I would go back to the polling station and vote to stay, simply because the reality is hitting us, and the regrets are filling in that we have actually left the E.U.,” she told the British broadcaster Channel 5. She added that her whole family wished they could reverse their votes. “David Cameron resigning? That was the biggest shock,” she said. We didn’t really expect that to happen.”
With a few changes this is every Trump voter and will be the quote of every Trump voter should he win.
"Britons are among the least knowledgeable people in Europe when it comes to knowing about the European Union, according to a Eurobarometer survey conducted last year in all 28 member nations.
In a video clip widely shared on social media, one woman who voted to leave regretted her decision.
“I would go back to the polling station and vote to stay, simply because the reality is hitting us, and the regrets are filling in that we have actually left the E.U.,” she told the British broadcaster Channel 5. She added that her whole family wished they could reverse their votes. “David Cameron resigning? That was the biggest shock,” she said. We didn’t really expect that to happen.”
With a few changes this is every Trump voter and will be the quote of every Trump voter should he win.
7
A slim majority of Brits wants to insulate their country from the troubles roiling the rest of the world. Supporters of Donald Trump in the US and nationalist movements in other countries have similar yearnings. This head-in-the-sand mentality is futile. In previous centuries, geographic distance was enough to hold the troubles in third world countries at bay. No more. Unless governments of developed and undeveloped countries alike in this new century find ways together to ameliorate the effects of bigotry, ignorance, climate change, the spread of disease, over population, water scarcity, and poverty, we'll all be drowned under a tsunami of ills.
4
Imagine if we had national referendums here in the United States. In short order, strict national gun control laws would be enacted and passage of single payer health insurance.
3
Along with the defeat of affirmative action and same-sex marriage.
2
When Greece voted the defiant NO in the face of massive worldwide pressure, EU threats and capital controls, I predicted that their bravery would start a movement.
Austerity has torn through the fabric of sovereign nations while the rich get richer and further insulated. Multinational corporations and the governments who do their bidding are pushing the mother of all trade deals wherein corporate interests can supersede national laws if their profits are imperiled.
We need a revolution. We need to take our country back, not from immigrants or refugees but from Goldman Sachs and Lockheed Martin. Let's not conflate the imperative to have a government that represents its actual voters with tribal nationalism and racism. It's a cheap shot, and while the far right and far left may meet somewhere along the edges, highlighting the convergence doesn't fool anyone.
Thank you to Greece, for starting the ball rolling, and here's hoping Hillary wins with the fear of the People hovering over her like the sword of Damocles.
Austerity has torn through the fabric of sovereign nations while the rich get richer and further insulated. Multinational corporations and the governments who do their bidding are pushing the mother of all trade deals wherein corporate interests can supersede national laws if their profits are imperiled.
We need a revolution. We need to take our country back, not from immigrants or refugees but from Goldman Sachs and Lockheed Martin. Let's not conflate the imperative to have a government that represents its actual voters with tribal nationalism and racism. It's a cheap shot, and while the far right and far left may meet somewhere along the edges, highlighting the convergence doesn't fool anyone.
Thank you to Greece, for starting the ball rolling, and here's hoping Hillary wins with the fear of the People hovering over her like the sword of Damocles.
3
The funny thing is that the "British" are not "British" at all - those who think they are "most English" are descended from invaders - immigrants with weapons and violence in mind - so they are really Norse, Anglo Saxon, Viking and Roman. Their "royal family" is German, and not British, except for the blood brought in by Diana Spencer, who made William and Harry half "English." This anti-immigrant sentiment voiced so loudly by the Brexit supporters defies their own true history. However hard they try to hide their own origins, they are all immigrants, just some generations removed - and they worship a German queen on their money and stamps. Perhaps they need education on who they really are?
5
This is what toddlers do: if they don't like what's on the menu, they scream and toss it on the floor, leaving the adults to clean up the mess and hoping that whatever comes next will be more palatable. I never expected this from the British, but then I never expected Trump, either.
7
So much hysteria, misinformation and scaremongering around today: even more than before the vote. Actually, since Brexit was announced, European markets have fallen more than London's. Before Brexit there were numerous appeals to UK voters from Europe saying, roughly, "Please don't go, we need you." Seems that is more or less the case.
1
Some of these comments would make the xenophobic Brexiters proud. This was not a revolt against the economic elites - it was a complaint about the feeling that white natives are no longer number 1. Welcome to the underlying wound festering in the USA.
That fairy tale about being number 1 has been the fatted calf off of which our GOP has fed for decades and they hope to pull it off once more with a con man who couldn't care less about the well being of the ordinary guy. There is a real failure of reality testing going on here and it may devastate all of us.
Have the elites messed up? Sure - we needed a bigger stimulus but that had no chance against the GOP elite. Earlier, Elliot Spitzer and other AGs had wanted to halt the fraudulent housing market but the Bush White House found a way to thwart that.
And let's not forget the big lie that got us into this mess. WMD in Iraq anyone? How is the resulting Middle East turmoil working out for us and Europe now?
If that wasn't bad enough, the US voting public decided in 2004 that George Bush had done such a great job in the previous 4 years that they lined up and said, "I'll have more of that, please."
That didn't work out so well and now that same enraged and know-nothing Republican electorate has picked someone even less qualified to run. Talk about making a bad situation worse.
That fairy tale about being number 1 has been the fatted calf off of which our GOP has fed for decades and they hope to pull it off once more with a con man who couldn't care less about the well being of the ordinary guy. There is a real failure of reality testing going on here and it may devastate all of us.
Have the elites messed up? Sure - we needed a bigger stimulus but that had no chance against the GOP elite. Earlier, Elliot Spitzer and other AGs had wanted to halt the fraudulent housing market but the Bush White House found a way to thwart that.
And let's not forget the big lie that got us into this mess. WMD in Iraq anyone? How is the resulting Middle East turmoil working out for us and Europe now?
If that wasn't bad enough, the US voting public decided in 2004 that George Bush had done such a great job in the previous 4 years that they lined up and said, "I'll have more of that, please."
That didn't work out so well and now that same enraged and know-nothing Republican electorate has picked someone even less qualified to run. Talk about making a bad situation worse.
10
It's not about race. Indian's, West Indian's who have relatives in this country have been kept out as anybody from within the EU can come and live here. There has been widespread support from ethnic minorities for Brexit. It's really about control and removing control from the EU which is perceived to be undemocratic and unwilling to change.
5
People never learn.
We have already a bunch of nationalist "leaders" all over Europe ready to take over and destroy anything that looks like global thinking and planetarization of consciousness.
We have already a bunch of nationalist "leaders" all over Europe ready to take over and destroy anything that looks like global thinking and planetarization of consciousness.
3
Anger, alienation, and frustration are a bad frame of mind from which to make major decisions. The UK citizens who have thrown their country out of the EU will I suspect encounter many unforeseen consequences and unanticipated costs to the adventure they have cast their nation into... and so far it is hard to see what rewards they will reap from this choice. Those in this country considering throwing the dice for an unexperienced, uninformed, amoral and self-centered amateur as the next president should watch the impacts of Britain's decision in the next few months, and consider carefully if the instant expression of their frustration, anger, and disenchantment are worth the subsequent continuing costs and impacts of what may very likely turn out to be hastily done, enduringly regretted decision, and seriously reconsider if expressing anger and frustration are worth the very real consequences to the future. Those in the UK are embarked on a new adventure, the outcome of which is far from sure to be beneficial, particularly to those who already felt disadvantaged. Somehow, the poor displaced workers, the 'left behind' frustrated who voted for this adventure will likely be, as usual, the last to gain any benefit from the 'new order' they have ushered in, while the elites they are angry at will reap their benefits, as usual.
3
WOW. So instead of working to fix the system a majority of British voters decided to pull their house down around their ears and take a giant leap in the wrong direction: backwards.
The lack of self-awareness and historical and economic perspective is astonishing. Since when have the English - and this was primarily supported by the English - ever been able to survive on their own? Without aggressive imperial conquest, the colonization of a vast empire and the exploitation and even enslavement of other people and other lands where would the English be today?
I'm shocked. Fear of immigants, the wider world, black and brown people - many from former British colonies! has overridden common sense.
Sure enough the pound is crashing, and people like Donald Trump will get richer.
The "serfs" who, according to a top-rated post in this thread are "rebelling," I think won't do so well.
Worst of all this signals a potential ripple of racist, right wing know-nothing parties across Eueope and possibly even here. We've seen the results of angry political resentment coupled with xenophobia and bigotry in the 20th century.
America, step away from this path. It leads nowhere. If things aren't working well, work to fix them. Don't trash the entire system!
The lack of self-awareness and historical and economic perspective is astonishing. Since when have the English - and this was primarily supported by the English - ever been able to survive on their own? Without aggressive imperial conquest, the colonization of a vast empire and the exploitation and even enslavement of other people and other lands where would the English be today?
I'm shocked. Fear of immigants, the wider world, black and brown people - many from former British colonies! has overridden common sense.
Sure enough the pound is crashing, and people like Donald Trump will get richer.
The "serfs" who, according to a top-rated post in this thread are "rebelling," I think won't do so well.
Worst of all this signals a potential ripple of racist, right wing know-nothing parties across Eueope and possibly even here. We've seen the results of angry political resentment coupled with xenophobia and bigotry in the 20th century.
America, step away from this path. It leads nowhere. If things aren't working well, work to fix them. Don't trash the entire system!
4
I think a lot of them reluctantly concluded that the EU is beyond repair.
How is it that the very people, the geniuses of finance, who told us the the UK
would vote to remain were themselves proven wrong about the vote
and yet tell us every day we should place our life savings in their hands...
So the Markets are in a self-induced roil which means those who trade the stocks will make their daily millions while crying "Economic Ruin" for the next
week or so until they find another "crisis" to one again roil the markets.
It is a very simple. Humans need local politics, not trans-national politics.
We don't want to be slaves to International Markets and un-elected
Bureaucrats deciding every aspect of our lives.
Trade will continue between the UK and Europe. Immigration will be under the control of the UK. A new Prime Minister will be chosen.
Life will go on.
The UK survived Napoleon, Hitler and will survive Brexit.
would vote to remain were themselves proven wrong about the vote
and yet tell us every day we should place our life savings in their hands...
So the Markets are in a self-induced roil which means those who trade the stocks will make their daily millions while crying "Economic Ruin" for the next
week or so until they find another "crisis" to one again roil the markets.
It is a very simple. Humans need local politics, not trans-national politics.
We don't want to be slaves to International Markets and un-elected
Bureaucrats deciding every aspect of our lives.
Trade will continue between the UK and Europe. Immigration will be under the control of the UK. A new Prime Minister will be chosen.
Life will go on.
The UK survived Napoleon, Hitler and will survive Brexit.
9
In my view, one of the biggest political lessons here is that in today's climate, if voters are presented with a choice between a terrible solution to their problems on the one hand, and an alternative that doesn't provide solutions but thinks explaining why the other side's proposed solution is terrible is enough to win, voters will choose the terrible solution.
To put it very simply: things are just not good for working-middle class people in the West right now! Neoliberal technocratic leadership has been disastrous. Please, Democratic party, think about how you can offer some real, bold solutions to income inequality, the financialization of our economy, and the struggles of working people.
Saying "stay the course, the other side's ideas are bad" won't work in the long run - even if Clinton defeats Trump in the short term - because after three decades of neoliberal policy Americans know, even if they won't put it in those terms, that this isn't working. Voters in the US, UK, and Europe will eventually choose the dangerous gamble if the "responsible" side doesn't offer aggressive, radical solutions in the other direction. They just want something that provides real hope of change.
To put it very simply: things are just not good for working-middle class people in the West right now! Neoliberal technocratic leadership has been disastrous. Please, Democratic party, think about how you can offer some real, bold solutions to income inequality, the financialization of our economy, and the struggles of working people.
Saying "stay the course, the other side's ideas are bad" won't work in the long run - even if Clinton defeats Trump in the short term - because after three decades of neoliberal policy Americans know, even if they won't put it in those terms, that this isn't working. Voters in the US, UK, and Europe will eventually choose the dangerous gamble if the "responsible" side doesn't offer aggressive, radical solutions in the other direction. They just want something that provides real hope of change.
4
This Editorial adds to the drama and trauma of today's headlines by confining the analysis to aggregate data. It fails to distinguish the finer facts namely that the results are bi-modal with a significant skewed preference of the youth to remain in the EU. I am confident once the unwary soft voters, who tilted the balance in favor of the Leave option, realize the adverse consequences of their action, the backlash against populism already brewing in social media today is bound to grow.
Those among us who work for solidarity across borders should never lose hope. The EU has lost a major battle, as George Washington did many times prior to Yorktown. But from a historic perspective, yesterday’s referendum should be a mere impediment, rich in lessons, in the long and irreversible march to build a united, peaceful, prosperous and exemplary European Union.
As for the domestic scene, American-election results have, in the past, frequently been event driven. What happens between now and November can tilt the results either way. Lacking financial support, Trump could soon be a lane duck. But all bets are off if a terror event takes place on the eve of the elections or if Mrs. Clinton is indicted, both are remote possibilities for now. There is also the likelihood that leading Republicans who yearn to build a peaceful world for current and future generations may embark on an altruistic nation-building mission and steer away a critical mass of voters from the regressive trumpmania,
Those among us who work for solidarity across borders should never lose hope. The EU has lost a major battle, as George Washington did many times prior to Yorktown. But from a historic perspective, yesterday’s referendum should be a mere impediment, rich in lessons, in the long and irreversible march to build a united, peaceful, prosperous and exemplary European Union.
As for the domestic scene, American-election results have, in the past, frequently been event driven. What happens between now and November can tilt the results either way. Lacking financial support, Trump could soon be a lane duck. But all bets are off if a terror event takes place on the eve of the elections or if Mrs. Clinton is indicted, both are remote possibilities for now. There is also the likelihood that leading Republicans who yearn to build a peaceful world for current and future generations may embark on an altruistic nation-building mission and steer away a critical mass of voters from the regressive trumpmania,
1
A lot of the frustration in Britain is due to Cameron's austerity policies since 2010. He was then, despite the drastic measures he took, re-elected by the same folks who suffered from his programs, in part because of his offer of a referendum on the UK's membership in the EU. And a lot of those who voted him in the second time, and who voted for Brexit, are again those who will suffer the most. If this truly parallels our situation regarding Trump, then based on buyer's remorse many are now feeling as well as the market shock, the best choice would be to vote Hillary.
2
This was a scary move, but I am choosing to have faith in the British. Globalism has not been kind to them, and every since Maggie Thatcher their leaders have sacrificed them to the oligarchy that now runs the country. The people have, quite simply, had enough.
I see that much of this was driven by older voters. Voters actually old enough to remember the Second World War. How galling it must be for them to have beaten Germany in that war, only to be told, largely by Germany, how they must function within a unified Europe.
This is not the first time Britain has gone it alone. They've usually done all right, over the centuries. Now, as the world succumbs to hysterics over this, the Brits, I suspect will do what they've always done in troubled times. They will Keep Calm, and Carry On!
I see that much of this was driven by older voters. Voters actually old enough to remember the Second World War. How galling it must be for them to have beaten Germany in that war, only to be told, largely by Germany, how they must function within a unified Europe.
This is not the first time Britain has gone it alone. They've usually done all right, over the centuries. Now, as the world succumbs to hysterics over this, the Brits, I suspect will do what they've always done in troubled times. They will Keep Calm, and Carry On!
2
Here is what you, and all the other institutions of global business, banking and finance haven't grasped - you say that Britain has shown itself vulnerable to nationalist, ant-globalization, and anti-immigration sentiments -and that these are terrible things. What the people of Britain are telling you is that they have had enough of globalization and immigration because the ordinary citizen does not see that they are not benefiting financially. While I personally feel that this act will not benefit the UK in the long run, I can understand why people voted the way they did. It is the failure of the political and elite business classes to expect austerity from the average citizen, while they accumulate more and more of the world's wealth. Finally, the common citizen used the only tool available to them - the ballot box-to send the message loud and clear that they are tired of being exploited by the 1%. Just because people voted to leave the EU doesn't necessarily mean they are a bunch of racists. It probably means they have simply had enough of the upper classes telling them to accept crumbs while they dine on caviar.
5
Those who supported the decision to LEAVE are fighting a losing battle against the ineluctable tide of history. The world is continuously becoming more cosmopolitan and close-knit and will continue to do so. Global trade, the internet, international agreements, technology all push the world human populations closer to each other. It is quite likely within 30 years England will be part of the EU again. Of course, we will see the Scots vote to separate from the UK and stay with the EU in the next few years. The same might happen with Northern Ireland.
It is interesting to note that younger voters in the UK primarily supported REMAINing in the EU. They are disappointed in the results and feel betrayed by the older generation. Young people seem to be less burdened by racial and cultural purity notions. It is those dying oldsters who still cling to the racial and cultural purity of the homeland and have the strong nationalistic tendencies which have been so destructive over the range of history. But this is only the futile last shrieks of an older generation. The trend towards a coming together of people throughout the world cannot be resisted.
England's vote to separate from Europe is one of the last stands of nationalism and racial purity. These notions are dying and will eventually be forgotten.
It is interesting to note that younger voters in the UK primarily supported REMAINing in the EU. They are disappointed in the results and feel betrayed by the older generation. Young people seem to be less burdened by racial and cultural purity notions. It is those dying oldsters who still cling to the racial and cultural purity of the homeland and have the strong nationalistic tendencies which have been so destructive over the range of history. But this is only the futile last shrieks of an older generation. The trend towards a coming together of people throughout the world cannot be resisted.
England's vote to separate from Europe is one of the last stands of nationalism and racial purity. These notions are dying and will eventually be forgotten.
1
Holland, France, Denmark, Italy, Spain, Hungary, they will all have calls for referendums. Greece already had one a year ago. The center cannot hold. Nor can the system. If referendums were held in all remaining 27 EU member states, the union would be a lot smaller the next morning. The Unholy Union depends on people not getting a say.
The overwhelming underlying principle that we see at work here is that centralization is dead, because the economy has perished. Or at least the growth of the economy has, which is the same in a system that relies on perpetual growth to ‘function’.
But that is something we can be sure no politician or bureaucrat or economist is willing to acknowledge. They’re all going to continue to claim that their specific theories and plans are capable of regenerating the growth the system depends on. Only to see them fail.
The overwhelming underlying principle that we see at work here is that centralization is dead, because the economy has perished. Or at least the growth of the economy has, which is the same in a system that relies on perpetual growth to ‘function’.
But that is something we can be sure no politician or bureaucrat or economist is willing to acknowledge. They’re all going to continue to claim that their specific theories and plans are capable of regenerating the growth the system depends on. Only to see them fail.
4
I agree with you entirely isothree.
The notion that borders are irrelevant is malarkey. It is a concept peddled almost entirely by people who are rich and powerful and live in buildings with doormen, are driven around in locked SUVs with personal bodyguards, send their children to elite private schools, arrange for their children to attend elite, exclusive universities, and vacation on private islands with natural moats.
These snobbish elites (and chief among them are the faceless aristos of The Editorial Board) are deeply hypocritical. They live behind secure, guarded walls 24-7-365. And they make the rest of us pay for their walls.
The notion that borders are irrelevant is malarkey. It is a concept peddled almost entirely by people who are rich and powerful and live in buildings with doormen, are driven around in locked SUVs with personal bodyguards, send their children to elite private schools, arrange for their children to attend elite, exclusive universities, and vacation on private islands with natural moats.
These snobbish elites (and chief among them are the faceless aristos of The Editorial Board) are deeply hypocritical. They live behind secure, guarded walls 24-7-365. And they make the rest of us pay for their walls.
7
Great Britain has decided to become "Little England," a huge shift in geopolitical reality for Europe and the world.
With the prospect Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland will choose to remain in the EU rather than in Great Britain, the Acts of Union of 1707 which formed Great Britain would be undone. As England's economic power fades so too would its military and political power. England might still "punch above its weight" but that weight will be greatly diminished.
In 1973 when Britain joined the EEC it gave up the chance to deepen its relationship with other Commonwealth countries. Now it will take a long time to find a new balance with them and with EU countries.
With the prospect Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland will choose to remain in the EU rather than in Great Britain, the Acts of Union of 1707 which formed Great Britain would be undone. As England's economic power fades so too would its military and political power. England might still "punch above its weight" but that weight will be greatly diminished.
In 1973 when Britain joined the EEC it gave up the chance to deepen its relationship with other Commonwealth countries. Now it will take a long time to find a new balance with them and with EU countries.
1
Maybe what is happening around the world is that most people are socially conservative, so they elect conservatives who use conservative social issues to gain support but are really simply beholden to big, corporate interests who exploit the the middle class. In the meantime, the liberal parties focus exclusively on socially liberal positions and also use the middle class by claiming to be for unions and workers, but then do nothing to advance the interests of the middle class. So, the voters vote against their interests out of frustration and become even more frustrated when things just get worse. We are bumping up on Stein's law; "if something cannot go on it will stop."
1
I am not shocked or confused as stated in the first paragraph of this editorial.
It's amazing the NYT's can write that "It was a cry of anger and frustration from more than half the country against those who wield power, wealth and privilege" and then not have any insight or blame for how things reached this point and any solutions. It's all so antiseptic but reveals the extent of the problem. Leadership, politicos and the press are clueless. They are worried about status quo not people. One might conclude that if only we didn't have voters then all would be fine.
People are voting for change because what they voted for before is not working for them. It's perfectly rationale. In the US Trump and Sanders gathered 10's of millions of votes for change as both legacy parties have failed spectacularly to govern with empathy for the people they say the represent.
I can see now that Trump might win and by the way xenophobia has become the most overused term by the mainstream press and politicos in recent memory. By definition if a country wants to stop immigration then they were open to immigration in the first place so the country was not xenophobic at the outset but something(s) changed. It's not only jobs but obnoxious immigrants with anti-western views demanding the country change for them.
It's amazing the NYT's can write that "It was a cry of anger and frustration from more than half the country against those who wield power, wealth and privilege" and then not have any insight or blame for how things reached this point and any solutions. It's all so antiseptic but reveals the extent of the problem. Leadership, politicos and the press are clueless. They are worried about status quo not people. One might conclude that if only we didn't have voters then all would be fine.
People are voting for change because what they voted for before is not working for them. It's perfectly rationale. In the US Trump and Sanders gathered 10's of millions of votes for change as both legacy parties have failed spectacularly to govern with empathy for the people they say the represent.
I can see now that Trump might win and by the way xenophobia has become the most overused term by the mainstream press and politicos in recent memory. By definition if a country wants to stop immigration then they were open to immigration in the first place so the country was not xenophobic at the outset but something(s) changed. It's not only jobs but obnoxious immigrants with anti-western views demanding the country change for them.
4
"By definition if a country wants to stop immigration then they were open to immigration in the first place so the country was not xenophobic at the outset but something(s) changed. "
That's some major league pretzel bending right there. Xenophobia has always existed in every country regardless of whether immigrants were "obnoxious" or not. Were all the Irish, Italians, Germans and Jews obnoxious when they emigrated en mass to the USA? Of course not. Yet xenophobics still wanted to keep them all out. That the voices of xenophobia are getting louder is to our detriment.
That's some major league pretzel bending right there. Xenophobia has always existed in every country regardless of whether immigrants were "obnoxious" or not. Were all the Irish, Italians, Germans and Jews obnoxious when they emigrated en mass to the USA? Of course not. Yet xenophobics still wanted to keep them all out. That the voices of xenophobia are getting louder is to our detriment.
3
@slartibarfast
My point stands on the facts not contemporary opinion. Additionally it's illogical to extrapolate from the exception to a general rule. Yes xenophobes have always existed but the existence of anything does not make it a norm. When entire countries are moving away from free flow of people that is a dramatic change as their history indicates they did support immigration. Xenophobic countries would never have allowed immigration in the first place like Saudi Arabia.
When the great immigration waves came to America they were generally met with open arms and a known process to citizenship. They came to the US to have a better life and embraced being American and leaving behind much of their old life. They didn't ask America to change democratic institutions and legal structures for them. The general rule was "welcome and adapt."
Now it has turned into "give me my rights, America/UK/France are not that great and change for me and what I think is right." That is obnoxious and millions of people want the welcome mat rolled up and put away.
My point stands on the facts not contemporary opinion. Additionally it's illogical to extrapolate from the exception to a general rule. Yes xenophobes have always existed but the existence of anything does not make it a norm. When entire countries are moving away from free flow of people that is a dramatic change as their history indicates they did support immigration. Xenophobic countries would never have allowed immigration in the first place like Saudi Arabia.
When the great immigration waves came to America they were generally met with open arms and a known process to citizenship. They came to the US to have a better life and embraced being American and leaving behind much of their old life. They didn't ask America to change democratic institutions and legal structures for them. The general rule was "welcome and adapt."
Now it has turned into "give me my rights, America/UK/France are not that great and change for me and what I think is right." That is obnoxious and millions of people want the welcome mat rolled up and put away.
2
Let's look at the results for what they are: a textbook case of the poorly informed and uneducated voting against their best interests, having been sold a bill of goods by populist politicians who mostly played the xenophobe card.
One telling detail that the BBC reported: the towns and districts in England who benefited most from EU policies and protections were also the ones who voted most heartily to leave the EU. It's not unlike the working class in the U.S. who vote in politicians who then undermine the social safety net that's there to help them specifically.
One telling detail that the BBC reported: the towns and districts in England who benefited most from EU policies and protections were also the ones who voted most heartily to leave the EU. It's not unlike the working class in the U.S. who vote in politicians who then undermine the social safety net that's there to help them specifically.
5
British folks didn't decide to leave out of anger and frustration...they decided to leave so that they can make decisions themselves, not depend on Brussels elites to decide immigration policies for them. How far will the left go on their open border schemes before they realize that legitimate concerns on immigration are not racist but are legitimate concerns. Dismissing legitimate concerns on immigration is going to come back to haunt the left in Europe and the US. I am a lifelong democrat, but am really very upset about these sanctuary cities in the US. Completely ignoring US law because it makes people feel good. It is nothing but mob rule and it can run both ways folks. If the Right takes power what stops a Donald Trump from deciding not to uphold environment laws. The progressives are out of control with their sanctuary cities, and attempts to ram orthodox thinking (climate change) down our throats. This is going to come back to haunt us just like it has now haunted the EU. Be warned people...be warned.
4
Many have written that this vote, although mistaken, was nevertheless understandable because of growing wealth inequality. Don't believe that. If the UK was actually concerned about inequality they would have voted for politicians who promised to raise taxes on the wealthy and lower taxes on the middle class and poor -- i.e. the Labour Party.
Brexit was really about xenophobia. Brexit forces are the same forces supporting Trump. Their anger is not justified and their movement is dangerous and based on ignorance and paranoia.
Brexit was really about xenophobia. Brexit forces are the same forces supporting Trump. Their anger is not justified and their movement is dangerous and based on ignorance and paranoia.
3
If only we could get rid of democracy all of us ignorant and paranoid people wouldn't have a say and the elites like you could just run the world the right way.
2
Keep Calm and Carry On!?!
Complacency has consequences.
Elections have consequences.
There is a direct line of cause and effect from the judicial coup of Bush v. Gore in 2000 to the fear and loathing exhibited in the Brexit of 2016.
Both sides of the pond need to wake up that there is a new specter haunting the world.
United we stand, divided we fall.
The Balkanization of the World must be stopped.
One bullet killing Franz Ferdinand a century ago forever changed the 20th century and led to two World Wars leaving millions and millions dead, the creation and need for nuclear weapons that by their very existence continue to risk the destruction of life on earth, and a Cold War that created proxy wars around the globe that still linger today after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
As my creator once said, 'What is past is prologue'.
The question on this sad day is are there authors/citizens who have the right stuff to write a new chapter or are we really doomed to watch history repeat itself?
Complacency has consequences.
Elections have consequences.
There is a direct line of cause and effect from the judicial coup of Bush v. Gore in 2000 to the fear and loathing exhibited in the Brexit of 2016.
Both sides of the pond need to wake up that there is a new specter haunting the world.
United we stand, divided we fall.
The Balkanization of the World must be stopped.
One bullet killing Franz Ferdinand a century ago forever changed the 20th century and led to two World Wars leaving millions and millions dead, the creation and need for nuclear weapons that by their very existence continue to risk the destruction of life on earth, and a Cold War that created proxy wars around the globe that still linger today after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
As my creator once said, 'What is past is prologue'.
The question on this sad day is are there authors/citizens who have the right stuff to write a new chapter or are we really doomed to watch history repeat itself?
2
Interesting comments both criticizing and congratulating the British people for their collective decision.
The only thing that seems to be clear is that this decision will undoubtedly lead to some fairly severe short-term economic pain for Britain. If nothing else, the cost of goods and utilities is going to go up fairly dramatically. And as usual it will be the very people who voted for change that will feel the most pain.
Great Britain is not the United States, in terms of size, population, natural resources or human resources. Does being disconnected really help them?
The only thing that seems to be clear is that this decision will undoubtedly lead to some fairly severe short-term economic pain for Britain. If nothing else, the cost of goods and utilities is going to go up fairly dramatically. And as usual it will be the very people who voted for change that will feel the most pain.
Great Britain is not the United States, in terms of size, population, natural resources or human resources. Does being disconnected really help them?
2
As a bone fide "leftist" it seems that someone rational has to speak up about the very real impacts of mass immigration on cultures and physical spaces, regardless of whatever motivations of "racism" or "xenophobia" may be behind some of those voting "yes." The fact is that Britain, like most Western countries, has seen prices go up, wages go down, and a standard of living decrease as foreign money, and immigrants from countries with "lower" standards of living have skyrocketed. People who grew up in London can no longer afford to live there. Saying the correlation is illegitimate because it is "racist" fails to account for the truth in the phenomena. There is only so much space on the Earth, and as just as European countries found some stability and sustainability, after WWII, everything has now changed with a disruptive wave of new populations and cultures. Mass immigration has always impacted indigenous people, from the Natives in North America to contemporary Europe. It is intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise. If everyone has a right to self defense, and the EU could not solve Britain's immigration issues, then Britain has a "right" to use this desperate "meat cleaver" approach. Enlightened people and the "serious" political classes need to stop dismissing the impulse of native populations to protect themselves, or the outcomes could be much scarier than a mere "Brexit." See: Donald Trump.
6
Doesn't the Brexit Vote confirm the "Prisoner's Dilemma" theory by Prof. Frank at Cornell. Look at the vote by age.
Prisoner's dilemma and cooperation[edit]
Frank, Gilovich, and Regan (1993) conducted an experimental study of the prisoner's dilemma. The subjects were students in their first and final years of undergraduate economics, and undergraduates in other disciplines. Subjects were paired, placed in a typical game scenario, then asked to choose either to "cooperate" or to "defect". Pairs of subjects were told that if they both chose "defect" the payoff for each would be 1. If both cooperated, the payoff for each would be 2. If one defected and the other cooperated, the payoff would be 3 for the defector and 0 for the cooperator. Each subject in a pair made his choice without knowing what the other member of the pair chose.
First year economics students, and students doing disciplines other than economics, overwhelmingly chose to cooperate. But 4th year students in economics tended to not cooperate. Frank et al. concluded, that with "an eye toward both the social good and the well-being of their own students, economists may wish to stress a broader view of human motivation in their teaching."
Prisoner's dilemma and cooperation[edit]
Frank, Gilovich, and Regan (1993) conducted an experimental study of the prisoner's dilemma. The subjects were students in their first and final years of undergraduate economics, and undergraduates in other disciplines. Subjects were paired, placed in a typical game scenario, then asked to choose either to "cooperate" or to "defect". Pairs of subjects were told that if they both chose "defect" the payoff for each would be 1. If both cooperated, the payoff for each would be 2. If one defected and the other cooperated, the payoff would be 3 for the defector and 0 for the cooperator. Each subject in a pair made his choice without knowing what the other member of the pair chose.
First year economics students, and students doing disciplines other than economics, overwhelmingly chose to cooperate. But 4th year students in economics tended to not cooperate. Frank et al. concluded, that with "an eye toward both the social good and the well-being of their own students, economists may wish to stress a broader view of human motivation in their teaching."
33
The Times Editorial Board wrote:
"It was a cry of anger and frustration from more than half the country against those who wield power, wealth and privilege, both in their own government and in Brussels, and against global forces in a world that they felt was squeezing them out."
As an American living an ocean away, I will not pretend to understanding the precise dynamics that led to this decision. But I will say this.
If this is vote is indeed a reflection of populist sentiment, of a profound dissatisfaction with a globalist elite that refuses to acknowledge, much less accommodate, the concerns of ordinary Britons, then the obvious lesson to be taken from this vote is that "attention must be paid" (a reference to the climatic scene from Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman")
The concerns of ordinary people are wholly legitimate, be it for a restoration of a way of life that existed before the World Financial Crisis or the relative cultural stability that existed before George W Bush made Tony Blair his English poodle, and unleashed waves of intense social disorder throughout the Middle East, and, in time, the EU, through his dubious Iraq adventure.
The people of Europe did not support that war, and neither do many of them support the economic policies that are undermining workers throughout the advanced industrialized world.
Brexit may prove the wrong approach - but if it is to be still avoided at this late date, "attention must be paid", and this would be the moment.
"It was a cry of anger and frustration from more than half the country against those who wield power, wealth and privilege, both in their own government and in Brussels, and against global forces in a world that they felt was squeezing them out."
As an American living an ocean away, I will not pretend to understanding the precise dynamics that led to this decision. But I will say this.
If this is vote is indeed a reflection of populist sentiment, of a profound dissatisfaction with a globalist elite that refuses to acknowledge, much less accommodate, the concerns of ordinary Britons, then the obvious lesson to be taken from this vote is that "attention must be paid" (a reference to the climatic scene from Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman")
The concerns of ordinary people are wholly legitimate, be it for a restoration of a way of life that existed before the World Financial Crisis or the relative cultural stability that existed before George W Bush made Tony Blair his English poodle, and unleashed waves of intense social disorder throughout the Middle East, and, in time, the EU, through his dubious Iraq adventure.
The people of Europe did not support that war, and neither do many of them support the economic policies that are undermining workers throughout the advanced industrialized world.
Brexit may prove the wrong approach - but if it is to be still avoided at this late date, "attention must be paid", and this would be the moment.
16
My concerns are for nuclear alliances with America has that been integrated now we're not in Europe what will the consequences of war and mediation. We are in the dark and we need to know these answers how do we cooperate outside the eu
Looking at the map of how England voted, it looks very much like our country in that the educated areas, the citys and the tourist places all voted majority to stay. The poor, and rural voted to leave. It looks like Republican vs Dem here.
14
Democrat and Republican? Hardly, and for those that vote Republican cling to the past, not, as in this referendum in England an obvious demand for change. I am not sure your point and sweeping generalizations because as with any modern society and probably much like America, in England those that have befitted from the current system and saw no reason for change clearly chose to vote in the remain category. Those that have NOT benefited from the current system chose otherwise and the increasing AND winning numbers show it.
1
Or more cynically, the areas which received the most EU money or are most dependent on the EU requirement of free movement of labour.
2
Very similar. Red v. Blue shows the tidal force of Globalization on the US. The Brexit vote is showing something very similar in GB.
The majority of Brits still hold the view that colonialism was good for its subjects. They do not apologize for their history. They do not pay reparations. They venerate, not repudiate, their Royals. Why are we surprised they were moved by racism, xenophobia and nativism?
9
The Brits are correct. The best government many of those countries have experienced was as a British colony. Sad, but true. Anyone who speaks of reparations is a loser. Instead of Britain paying reparations, grateful ex-colonies should thank the UK. I thank them.
2
When Brexit fails to bring the return of the 1950s, who and what will become the next target of populist anger.
16
The 1950s were Happy Days in the USA. Not in GB still digging out from the rubble of WWII. No fond memories.
Britain survived for centuries without the EU. It will do just fine. The bigger question is whether the EU will survive.
22
Jim Waddell, just how well did Britain survive in fact not just in your mind? Read British history and get back to us on that. War after war, the devastation of famine and plague, widespread poverty that persisted until well into the 20th century - and that is including the vast riches derived from piracy, slavery and ry and Empire.
Right.
Right.
3
Uh ... yeah. That matters a lot.
Germany has an annual $45B trade surplus with the UK and the UK is their third largest export market. Exactly how tough with trade do you think Germany can afford to be? That gives Germany a pretty big incentive to work this out.
9
But you are forgetting that German goods will be more expensive going forward for British residents because the weakness of the pound. If this continues, the trade imbalance will tighten considerably in the coming years.
1
Germany is not the 'boogey-man' in all this -- And just in case you haven't noticed, their economy is slowing down, as the cost of accommodating the hundreds of thousands of refugees continues to grow.
Another thing. With their inter-related economies, it's to the interest of ALL of Europe that they come to terms with the BREXIT as quickly as possible.
Another thing. With their inter-related economies, it's to the interest of ALL of Europe that they come to terms with the BREXIT as quickly as possible.
1
The popular book series "Left Behind" is coming true in the sense of a very slow-motion rapture. People with a college education, with a mind trained for difficult thought and solving big problems, have more opportunity to build a good life. They are ascending. People who thought they could live off labor, who didn't bother with higher education, are being left behind, they are the ones in hell. It was their choice to live lousy lives and we, who worked harder, thought harder, should not have to carry them. The UK is screwed. Don't let this happen in America. Lazy people lose, that's how history works.
5
Judgmental much? What an amazingly nasty comment. Did it ever occur to you that some people simply don't have the intellectual ability to succeed in college, whether because they were born that way or stunted by what happened to them later (such as lead poisoning, for example)? Did it ever occur to you that maybe some of them wanted to go to college and had the ability to do so, but economic circumstances stymied them? Sure, some people chose not to develop their intellectual gifts, but many others didn't get a choice. Stop congratulating yourself and go volunteer to work with others, you might learn something.
5
I am a teacher and know that some students do not have the natural abilities to be successful in a college setting. I also have a nephew who has a severe learning disability and would never be admitted to a college. Should these people "lose". My nephew was an Eagle Scout and is very hardworking. Your attitude is chilling.
5
Texas has been threatening to leave for a long time. Since they are mostly gun nuts and "takers," let's hope we have a Texit movement in the U.S.
22
They seceded from Mexico and from the US, both because of slavery. They haven't changed much.
2
How foolish and absurd to have such an incredibly important decision left to the citizens to decide in a referendum.
11
So many of the U.S. electorate are low information voters, who listen to right wing talk radio and Fox News. They are fed fear, hatred and lies on a steady basis. I wish that they were not given the sacred responsibility of voting. I wonder if the same idiocracy exists in England.
2
Shocking. Just shocking. That the CITIZENS should be able to make a decision about something that governs their livelihoods and the regulates their everyday lives. What have we come to?
1
The notion that the British people should not have had a say in such an incredibly important decision is exactly why it came out the way it did. It is the working philosophy of the EU: we know what is best for you and you will eat your porridge when you're told. Remember what Wolfgang Schnauble told Yanis Varoufakis when he came to Brussels as the finance minister of the newly elected, anti-austerity government: elections don't matter. Well, yes. Yes, they do.
4
The danger to the US is that the 'establishment' is discounting the power of the disaffected voters and we may end up following the UK with a President Trump. There has to be acknowledgement of the shrinking middle class both on the right and the left and a politics that takes on their disaffection rather than continuing to whistle in the dark.
7
Here Here!! The reality is the frustration that so many people of the world feel in the face of a globalization is that rather deal with the "establishment politics" they would chance the unknown! Very naive to think that not dealing with the people's concerns, can continue business as usual...we see the same phenomena here with the rise of Trump, and sadly our elites do not deal with it honestly, he is a result of greed and the distortion of reality...
2
Brexit deals with globalization by trying to run away from the world?
But I do agree that the rise of Trump is due to his greed and distortion of reality.
But I do agree that the rise of Trump is due to his greed and distortion of reality.
5
No, not running away from the world. We're amongst the ones funding the most aid to Syria, we're on of the few nations that spend our required amount on NATO, we'll still have people on the ground among the first in national disasters. But we're not in a system that must for it to work have a common currency, pension, welfare, and border force. That is the only way to manage free movement of labout. UK never bought into the EURO or Schnegen and it would be unfair for EU to be hindered in its ambitions. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10570726/Syri...
2
Xenophobia and nihilism. The xenophobes have shot themselves in the foot and are guaranteed to suffer the most, an insight their emotions wouldn't permit them. You can only hope that U.S. voters will see more clearly when they go to the polls in November. While most of us wring our hands over the rippling damage, Trump spends the morning on his opulent golf course in Scotland. What was it Churchill said about the average voter?
7
While I never supported Brexit, it’s gotten me thinking. With politics here in the US at an unprecedented standstill, maybe we need a Dexit or Democratic exit.
States that are predominately blue should vote to exit from Republican dogma and obstructionism. A Dexit would allow progressive states to get rid of the GOP, the NRA and all the other special interests that have no interest but their own. It doesn’t matter if they leave us or we leave them… the outcome will be the same… think East vs West Germany… think North vs South Korea. Think trickle down vs shared prosperity.
And I hope Donald Trump does build his wall… to keep Republicans from becoming undocumented Democrats and trying to share in our progress, education, infrastructure, science advances, arts and general wellbeing. Just thinking about it makes me smile.
States that are predominately blue should vote to exit from Republican dogma and obstructionism. A Dexit would allow progressive states to get rid of the GOP, the NRA and all the other special interests that have no interest but their own. It doesn’t matter if they leave us or we leave them… the outcome will be the same… think East vs West Germany… think North vs South Korea. Think trickle down vs shared prosperity.
And I hope Donald Trump does build his wall… to keep Republicans from becoming undocumented Democrats and trying to share in our progress, education, infrastructure, science advances, arts and general wellbeing. Just thinking about it makes me smile.
56
No, we don't need a Dexit. We need to let Trump finish the work he started which is to thoroughly destroy the current Republican party, a complete reboot that would allow it to be rebuilt along Hamiltonian principles unmarred by bigotry, xenophobia, second amendment nuttiness, and sundry values baked in medieval villages. And we best accomplish that by defeating the moron soundly in November.
1
This is a great idea. We should get rid of Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, maybe Florida first. Institute a decent public education system through University. Health care. I might even consider moving back to USA into a Dexit territory.
You are brilliant. I am going to share this opinion with some people. I presume, since you got it published, that I have your permission to do so. Very interesting.
Today's lesson: Do not let an uneducated or under-educated electorate decide on world altering events, that could potentially affect billions of people.
Cameron - this is on you.
Cameron - this is on you.
22
That would really change the elections in the US for sure. Doesn't sound like a very liberal view of the populace at large.
1
That's right. Put the 'demo' back in democracy.
Dear Pillai,
So are you recommending that we re-establish the monarchy? Divine Right of Kings?
If the king is good, maybe...but if the king is bad...not so good at all.
So are you recommending that we re-establish the monarchy? Divine Right of Kings?
If the king is good, maybe...but if the king is bad...not so good at all.
1
It's interesting, commentators on the left seem to believe the vote represents rebellion against corporations. Commentators on the right appear to believe the vote represents rebellion against government.
4
If I were a lib, I would find very worrying the finding that with the huge pressure to vote Remain, about 2 percent of Britain, in almost every part of Britain, lied to the pollsters, said they would go Remain and then voted Leave. I think there are lessons for November.
8
Not Mark....excellent point. I have been screaming for years that all research in the social sciences, including economics and polling, should have qualitative research included. Very few research controls for what is called, "socially desirable or socially acceptable or socially preferred" responses. In the US, many people either do not participate in polls or political surveys (choose not to) or give "responses favorable to what the researcher might want or prefer" - that is "what is socially popular and acceptable". In this elections this "socially favored or acceptable" bias in responses are higher because "the political divisions, the controversies and media distortions" are higher. Do you see any well explained methodological control for this?
We need to get bright or brilliant qualitative experts or professionals in every social science research. In the US we think if something is visible or vocal it is correct, and if it is measured or measurable then it is relevant. Both views are wrong.
We need to get bright or brilliant qualitative experts or professionals in every social science research. In the US we think if something is visible or vocal it is correct, and if it is measured or measurable then it is relevant. Both views are wrong.
1
Yep, once the politicians, power brokers and financial elites start making threats about the potential consequences of leaving then you know all bets are off.
If you were a lib you would remember that's exactly what Romney said as he paid for, then believed, a crooked poll showing him ahead. remember the little temper tantrum he had? if you were a lib you would know something, but you know nothing because you' a rep
It's not a gamble on a dangerous unknown. It's a return to a better life.
Inasmuch as The Editorial Board has a betting/predicting track record that casino owners can rely on for their profits, the prognostications in this piece can be ignored.
Given that the EU is upset about Britain's departure, it's clear that Britain doesn't need the EU while the EU needs Britain. If Greece voted to leave the EU, how much would the EU protest its departure? Exactly.
Inasmuch as The Editorial Board has a betting/predicting track record that casino owners can rely on for their profits, the prognostications in this piece can be ignored.
Given that the EU is upset about Britain's departure, it's clear that Britain doesn't need the EU while the EU needs Britain. If Greece voted to leave the EU, how much would the EU protest its departure? Exactly.
8
I admire the impulse towards independence of the Brits who voted to leave. But their timing was extremely poor. They should never have entered the EU . But some things once done cannot easily be undone or undone at alI. I fear they are now headed for a long, hard, extremely costly slog, not much different from the the one they have just voted to leave and possibly even worse.
5
I voted for Brexit as I don't see myself as European but British. Would Americans want a shared passport with Canada and Mexico that allowed common citizenship and free movement for employment between these countries?
19
We already have that. We basically have an open border with Mexico and Central America. Of course, we do not have one with Canada so they get the superior health care system.
3
...and would any American seriously accept that their own Supreme Court should be bound by a supra-national Court of Justice sitting in say, Guatemala, with membership drawn from Mexico, Canada, Honduras, Venezuela and Panama eyc etc?
1
Fully 75% of British voters either said no to the EU (52%) or didn't care enough to vote (23%). Only a small minority (25%) actually voted to continue with this failed experiment in cross-border socialism and soft borders. So to our leaders here in the USA: Are you listening?
6
To correct my own math, the number of people voting to remain was actually closer to 35% of the total electorate, according to the latest tally, including those who did not vote. Still, a minority to be sure, and not really a close call.
1
"Defying the warnings . . ." As I've said before all the hell and damnation, hair on fire warnings in the world mean nothing to a population that feels they have nothing to lose. Thirty years of deregulation enabled uncontrolled greed coupled with an increasingly out of touch, tone deaf political class whose own naked greed and increasing fealty to Big Money rendered political choice a tweedledum tweedledee farce outside "values" issues designed to distract the rubes. And the less said about the main stream media that has been capering about during this period -- as its business model crumbles -- ringing its caps and bells looking to cadge any spare change it can from said Big Money the better.
7
The elites are making populism a bad word. Brexit is not just a right wing anti immigration movement. The "Remain" contingent engaged in intense scaremongering. We lefty "populists" are fed up with the status quo. Not enough of you took Bernie seriously. His ideas are not radical, the rest of in the real free world enjoy universal health care and associated safety nets. Cameron was imposing severe austerity measures at the behest of the EU. Austerity measures do not harm the elites. I congratulate the Brexiters. Bernie should run as an independent. You need a whole lot of shaking up in the good old USA.
7
We took his main source of funding - Karl Rove and the GOP - very seriously. We reject anyone bent on destroying us - particularly if they have platitudes and no plans. That goes for both conmen, Sanders and Trump. And anyone who sat in the Senate for 30 years with nothing to show for it but a six figure salary drawn from our tax dollars is the establishment not the solution. Give us a break and stop pretending Sanders was anything but a GOP ploy to test Hillary Clinton prior the general election. Sanders only stand up for Sanders, and anyone who thinks differently just hasn't woken up yet from his lies.
1
Apart from being factually incorrect on at least one significant point in this article (borders/immigration policy). Calling the roughly 52% of voters who chose leave "a group eerily similar to Donald Trump's followers" is simply ludicrous.
5
No nation is obligated to commit demographic suicide for the benefit of bankers, bureacrats, and shareholders in transnational corportations.
Not even white European ones.
Not even white European ones.
30
Mass immigration is a disaster for average workers in the US and Europe, driving down their wages and driving up economic inequality. According to another article in the Times today, the UK had net immigration of 330,000 in 2015, an absurdly high number for such a small country. Britain's citizens voted sensibly yesterday, in their best interest and the best interest of their country.
16
The pundits can talk about how this is a political maneuver, how those voting for Brexit don't understand the consequences, how being in the EU helped England, but much like the discussions about free trade helping people, the problem is that the power class has basically neglected wide swaths of people, to cater to economic numbers and a relatively elite class of people, and they are paying the price for it.
With Brexit, people are in effect asking themselves what Reagan did in 1980 "are you better off?" and they are saying no. Being in the EU had its benefits, but that doesn't matter when people look and see that their lives are not getting better; whether it is the fault of the EU or not doesn't matter. Likewise, for all the talk of free trade benefitting all, of supply side economics, here in the US, people have seen their lives go south, and they know for certain they aren't better off.
That doesn't mean that free trade or the EU are necessarily bad things, what it does mean is that the political class has given lip service to far too many people, and they are revolting.
With Brexit, people are in effect asking themselves what Reagan did in 1980 "are you better off?" and they are saying no. Being in the EU had its benefits, but that doesn't matter when people look and see that their lives are not getting better; whether it is the fault of the EU or not doesn't matter. Likewise, for all the talk of free trade benefitting all, of supply side economics, here in the US, people have seen their lives go south, and they know for certain they aren't better off.
That doesn't mean that free trade or the EU are necessarily bad things, what it does mean is that the political class has given lip service to far too many people, and they are revolting.
7
and were they better off after Reagan? Reagan-omics 1981-1993 quintupled our debt, destroyed the middle class, and assured a permanent aristocracy.
The question the politicians ask are not the questions that need answering. the question should be of politicians - are you selling us more tinkle down economics?
The question the politicians ask are not the questions that need answering. the question should be of politicians - are you selling us more tinkle down economics?
2
This news could be good timing for our own presidential election. I am hopeful that the shock and turmoil will cause people to think twice before voting for Trump.
Unfortunately, I am probably wrong because the average Trump voter will likely not even know that this was in the news, let alone understand it.
Unfortunately, I am probably wrong because the average Trump voter will likely not even know that this was in the news, let alone understand it.
16
The markets will right themselves in short order but the UK will remain as it is today: an angry, hobbled old country long past its monochromatic sell-by date, no longer relevant in any meaningful way outside of a place where the Russian oligarchy can park their cash.
7
By calling for this referendum, Cameron demonstrated the difference between a leader and a politician. Unfortunately, the entire world will have to pay for his weakness as a leader.
6
Look at the electoral vote map; it looks like the rest of England ganged up on London. This was a vote against the EU, but also a vote against rich, powerful London. The EU has fattened London and left the rest of England out in the cold.
8
U.S. Better hurry up with economic changes if they are worried about the local populist rabble overturning their elites' "success" stories. Perhaps massive new infrastructure projects that require building and repair. Now that AI and robotics are here time for a base line guaranteed income for all Americans. P.s. I believe in idea of the EU.
Does this presage a Trump victory? I sincerely hope not. Yes, the scared and fed-up middle class Americans that have flocked to Trump and rejected establishment politics have legitimate gripes with government. Many on the left share their frustration. But the fear-driven, knee-jerk, anger-based rejection of sensible and reasonable compromise is not worth the risk of the dangerous wild card that would be a Trump presidency.
1
Democracy depends on having an informed and educated citizenry; but one wonders whether modern citizens are getting the information needed to make wise choices in decisions like Britain's whether or not to leave the European Union? It is concerning that Rupert Murdoch favored leaving, and without doubt his tabloids were full of inaccurate propaganda to manipulate the vote, which should give us pause. In this increasingly dangerous age where we seek peaceful tolerance and pluralistic societies, but rising demagogues like Donald Trump build campaigns on ignorance, fear, and lies about the "other," the media, if it is to be called "news," must be charged with reporting actual facts, and clearly separating opinion from journalism. It is worrisome in this country that Rupert Murdoch owns Fox News and its viewers are less informed than people who don't watch the news at all, and he also owns the Wall Street Journal. We can trace the partisan divide and legislative inaction on many urgent problems to his Fox News propaganda and his demonizing of Democrats and immigrants. It is reckless and irresponsible in democracies like Britain's and ours to play so fast and loose with the news.
4
This is something we are seeing here in the US, angry, frustrated voters who are voting using emotions, not facts to make a protest vote. Many of the Leave vote have been left behind in new workplace, a middle class feeling attacked and unprotected with no real government representation who cares about them.
This morning, and next week, as they become aware that this irrevocable decision will have serious impact, they will have no recourse. There's no way back. There's no way to change their mind. I think they didn't see that, all they say yesterday was their anger, and their opportunity to "yell" at their government for ignoring them.
This morning, and next week, as they become aware that this irrevocable decision will have serious impact, they will have no recourse. There's no way back. There's no way to change their mind. I think they didn't see that, all they say yesterday was their anger, and their opportunity to "yell" at their government for ignoring them.
2
So what do you expect people who have been, as you say yourself, "left behind in new workplace, a middle class feeling attacked and unprotected with no real government representation who cares about them" to do? You preach to them that they were too stupid to foresee the catastrophe that they will end up bringing about.
This is the thinking that I hear constantly from elite pundits like David Brooks. In discussions about globalization, when asked about all the people who have lost jobs and been left behind, he just shrugs and says something like Well, of course there is always a price to pay. Over and over I hear from "elite thought leaders" this cavalier dismissal of the anguish and hopelessness of people who have been left behind so that income inequality can be increased in the name of the "new economy."
It's like stating, when masses of civilians die in a military action, that there's always the risk of collateral damage. You know, it's too bad, but what can you do? Well a lot of people are sick of being collateral damage to an economic structure that seems set up to benefit ONLY the corporations/people wealthy enough to move their means of production (which they own and control) anywhere in the globe that they can get cheap labor. It DOES NOT necessarily mean that they are xenophobes or racists.
This is the thinking that I hear constantly from elite pundits like David Brooks. In discussions about globalization, when asked about all the people who have lost jobs and been left behind, he just shrugs and says something like Well, of course there is always a price to pay. Over and over I hear from "elite thought leaders" this cavalier dismissal of the anguish and hopelessness of people who have been left behind so that income inequality can be increased in the name of the "new economy."
It's like stating, when masses of civilians die in a military action, that there's always the risk of collateral damage. You know, it's too bad, but what can you do? Well a lot of people are sick of being collateral damage to an economic structure that seems set up to benefit ONLY the corporations/people wealthy enough to move their means of production (which they own and control) anywhere in the globe that they can get cheap labor. It DOES NOT necessarily mean that they are xenophobes or racists.
4
No cause for panic except that the NYT once again broke out the 20pt type
as it does more and more frequently.
The UK still subscribes to many international protocols and treaties,
the UN, NATO, the World Trade Organization and of course is the founder of the Commonwealth of Nations. By quitting the EC over the next two years the UK is hardly becoming an international hermit. The EC is only one of a whole bunch of multilateral entities and the only one yesterday's
wildly over hyped vote covers.
The Brits will not be sleeping in caves and grilling dead rodents over
dumpster fires tonight because of this vote. The Queen is not loading
a U-Haul to move out of Buckingham Palace. Pour a double Scotch and
chill!
as it does more and more frequently.
The UK still subscribes to many international protocols and treaties,
the UN, NATO, the World Trade Organization and of course is the founder of the Commonwealth of Nations. By quitting the EC over the next two years the UK is hardly becoming an international hermit. The EC is only one of a whole bunch of multilateral entities and the only one yesterday's
wildly over hyped vote covers.
The Brits will not be sleeping in caves and grilling dead rodents over
dumpster fires tonight because of this vote. The Queen is not loading
a U-Haul to move out of Buckingham Palace. Pour a double Scotch and
chill!
10
This is a victory for Trump after Clinton and Obama told the United Kingdom to vote to stay in the EU. The ordinary person has had a gutsful of unbridled immigration where illegals and refugees are affecting their daily lives, from overcrowding in schools, hospitals, and are a strain on the infrastructure. It doesn't affect the rich. The mayor of London is a muslim and doesn't even know how a democracy works and wants to ban advertising of woman in bikinis. If you let too many muslim immigrants into your nation you end up with voters who will change your culture to a theocracy and you wont be living in a democracy. This was about retaining their sovereignty and culture. The indigenous peoples of England are the English. English have great organisational skills and will survive the EU. The Chinese were wise and leased Hong Kong to the British because they knew the British would add value. When the lease was up the Chinese didn't renew the lease and are now laughing all the way to the bank. Chinese were wise and Britain will survive in spite of all the open borders that they now want to close and have some control over.
6
Shouts of anger and frustration are just that. The would not necessarily help those who sound them out. This makes one wonder if grave matters like this, with long range consequences, are best to be decided by people's elected representatives, instead of a referendum.
1
I think the statement "Defying the warnings of every major economic and political institution in Britain, Europe and the United States, millions of voters across Britain concluded that a gamble on a dangerous unknown was better than staying with a present over which they felt they had lost control" sums up the situation quite well. At last, the majority finally defied what the institutions told them. i.e. the corporations, the governments, the "haves." Don't change the status quo the haves keep telling the "have-nots" - you'll regret it. Trust us, trust us - there may not be much for you and so much more for us, but believe us when we say we know what's best. Good for England to finally say enough is enough.
10
The Peloponnesian war began 2400 years ago, and the Europeans have been slaughtering one another ever since. The first world war brought the first era of globalization to an end, and the seeds of World War 2 were sewn at the end of WWI with the imposition of war reparations on Germany by the victorious allies. Over 100-million lives were destroyed during the wars of the 20th century
What all the "smart money" did and does not understand is the grand sweep of history, and how much time, effort, energy and political capital have been invested into trying to bind-up the wounds of twentieth century Europe.
The isolation of Germany at the end of WWI led to the collapse of the German economy and the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party.
We need to find a way to bring all of the world's inhabitants into the global economy, for if they are not brought in, they will continue to be left out, and globalization will fail.
The challenge for the new global economy, now more than ever, is to ensure that the new global economy be made to work for working people the world over -- including the multitude of refugees that have flooded into Europe, and continue to flood in.
If the new global economy does not deliver on the promise of prosperity an economic security for all the world's inhabitants, then the people will revolt, trade will collapse, security arrangements will fail, and we could see a chain reaction of events that will make the twentieth century seem tranquil by comparison.
What all the "smart money" did and does not understand is the grand sweep of history, and how much time, effort, energy and political capital have been invested into trying to bind-up the wounds of twentieth century Europe.
The isolation of Germany at the end of WWI led to the collapse of the German economy and the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party.
We need to find a way to bring all of the world's inhabitants into the global economy, for if they are not brought in, they will continue to be left out, and globalization will fail.
The challenge for the new global economy, now more than ever, is to ensure that the new global economy be made to work for working people the world over -- including the multitude of refugees that have flooded into Europe, and continue to flood in.
If the new global economy does not deliver on the promise of prosperity an economic security for all the world's inhabitants, then the people will revolt, trade will collapse, security arrangements will fail, and we could see a chain reaction of events that will make the twentieth century seem tranquil by comparison.
2
A start would be to invite the 65,000,000 refugees in the world to the US. Obviously, advocating birth control in the overpopulated refugee world does not seem to be on the table. Our population is large, our culture is non existent, the US is perfect for immigration. That is a strength of our country. Problem is that we have been shoving it down the throats of Europeans for the last 70 years. Brits like to be Brits and French want to be French and Germans want to be Germans. Why would one visit Europe if it looks like Queens N.Y., Paterson N.J. or East LA? If I want to visit Pakistan or Iraq or Afghanistan I will go there and I have a number of times. If I want to visit England I want to visit England.
1
Britain is leaving the EU because Europe's leaders, and Britain's own leaders, have failed their people in exactly the same way that America's leaders have failed us.
British people, like Americans, who object to unfettered global capitalism and mass immigration are labeled racists and xenophobes. I say that it is not so much hatred of others as fear for themselves which gives rise to those objections. No surprise that wealthy elites support open markets and affirmative action -- their own relatively high position and the advantages it brings insulates them from the downside. It is far more difficult to be in favor of global trade and immigration when you know your own job is the one that may be lost, and your child is the one who may not get into college when someone else's child does.
If elites worldwide, whether in Britain, the EU, or America, really believe that greater integration is the way forward, then they must put the money where their mouths are, and see to it their own vulnerable citizens are not left behind (which too many have been). Otherwise, "tribalism" is an entirely rational response of people who know for a fact that they will be the losers. If everyone was truly benefiting, the political climate would be far more welcoming (though important cultural and religious issues would remain and cannot be ignored).
Start sharing the wealth, or expect the same here.
British people, like Americans, who object to unfettered global capitalism and mass immigration are labeled racists and xenophobes. I say that it is not so much hatred of others as fear for themselves which gives rise to those objections. No surprise that wealthy elites support open markets and affirmative action -- their own relatively high position and the advantages it brings insulates them from the downside. It is far more difficult to be in favor of global trade and immigration when you know your own job is the one that may be lost, and your child is the one who may not get into college when someone else's child does.
If elites worldwide, whether in Britain, the EU, or America, really believe that greater integration is the way forward, then they must put the money where their mouths are, and see to it their own vulnerable citizens are not left behind (which too many have been). Otherwise, "tribalism" is an entirely rational response of people who know for a fact that they will be the losers. If everyone was truly benefiting, the political climate would be far more welcoming (though important cultural and religious issues would remain and cannot be ignored).
Start sharing the wealth, or expect the same here.
15
Please stop talking about a Trump victory -- words create worlds. Every time someone brings it up, it adds credence to the possibility. It is embarrassing enough that I know and am related people who are truly thinking that would be a good thing. We don't need to add to the irrational fear and emotion driving this separatist behavior. Part of the problem is we have lost most of our "Greatest Generation" who would remember this kind of behavior and where it led them -- WWII. Now, we have selfish, closed-minded, "conservatives" stoking fear, racism, and back room ploys to continue making the rich richer, and those unfortunate enough to be less-informed or less educated following them down the path of our basest emotions and fears. Nothing good ever comes of that.
7
Of course there is a growing problem with wealth disparity arising out of a complex and international economy, an economy radically dependent upon the internet. The "serfs are rebelling" not because they feel disgust at their own consumerism, but because they are disgusted by the consumerism of others, especially the flaunting of extreme wealth and privilege. This reaction is understandable albeit not as admirable as a position in which the benefits of consumerism are rejected for ALL.
The "revolution" appears to pride itself on "attitude", rejecting liberal notions of meliorating the excesses. It seeks to repudiate and punish all "elites" My problem with this "revolution" is that it is entirely without theoretical underpinning (no old Marxist theorists, who tend to be established elites). So where is it going? What are its ultimate goals? Universally impoverished anarchy or fascism?? I don't believe that there can be a complex and productive world or even national economy that does not depend upon some "elites"
The "revolution" appears to pride itself on "attitude", rejecting liberal notions of meliorating the excesses. It seeks to repudiate and punish all "elites" My problem with this "revolution" is that it is entirely without theoretical underpinning (no old Marxist theorists, who tend to be established elites). So where is it going? What are its ultimate goals? Universally impoverished anarchy or fascism?? I don't believe that there can be a complex and productive world or even national economy that does not depend upon some "elites"
1
Sometimes principles are more telling than money.
The remain campaign preyed on the fear of significant financial costs if Brexit went ahead.
I'm glad sovereignty won out.
Americans would never cede control over basic sovereign issues to a regional group, and Britain was right to reject it.
Today's EU is manifestly different to the Common Market that Britain chose to enter.
The EU is a corporate State, acting in corporate interests, and ignoring the will of the people in most individual member states.
A common market would be acceptable to Britain, but a common government is not.
The remain campaign preyed on the fear of significant financial costs if Brexit went ahead.
I'm glad sovereignty won out.
Americans would never cede control over basic sovereign issues to a regional group, and Britain was right to reject it.
Today's EU is manifestly different to the Common Market that Britain chose to enter.
The EU is a corporate State, acting in corporate interests, and ignoring the will of the people in most individual member states.
A common market would be acceptable to Britain, but a common government is not.
10
England is a nation of shopkeepers at heart. They will descend back into a small, insignificant part of the world community, much as they were before the EU. Oil and banking, two of the major economic engines in Britain will go away; banking to an EU location, and oil to an independent Scotland. Ford will not expand in England, and will likely contract.
I lived in the UK for 4 years; a friend went into a shop to buy breakfast for some houseguests. There were six croissants left, and she needed them all for guests. The baker would only sell her three, since if he sold all six, there would be none left. That in a nutshell summarized the English economic mind. Good riddance, and hope for an independent Scotland.
I lived in the UK for 4 years; a friend went into a shop to buy breakfast for some houseguests. There were six croissants left, and she needed them all for guests. The baker would only sell her three, since if he sold all six, there would be none left. That in a nutshell summarized the English economic mind. Good riddance, and hope for an independent Scotland.
6
I think it's a mistake to portray those who voted Leave as populist, isolationist or xenophobic. That's a terribly inaccurate generalisation.
The USA has so very little understanding of the complex challenges facing the EU (after all, your land borders haven't had 1.5 million Islamic refugees/migrants walk into you country in the past year).
Beyond migration, the EU was never explicitly intended to morph into the United States of Europe, which it is on a trajectory towards.
The U.K. signed up for a common market for goods and services, but, as with all other EU members, has seen its very sovereignty whittled away.
It astounds me that an Editorial Board sitting in an equally myopic New York has the audacity to question the UK's withdrawal from an EU that they so clearly do not understand.
There is no way the US would allow so many of its basic sovereign rights to be absorbed by a supranational government that is not directly elected by the population.
What astounds me about Brexit is that it came as such a surprise, and it took so long. The writing was on the wall many years ago.
The EU's response is to get out the batons and start dishing out as much economic pain to the UK that no other member country will seriously consider leaving. That response will only delay the inevitable departure of other States, but by that time the animosity may well be at dangerous levels.
The USA has so very little understanding of the complex challenges facing the EU (after all, your land borders haven't had 1.5 million Islamic refugees/migrants walk into you country in the past year).
Beyond migration, the EU was never explicitly intended to morph into the United States of Europe, which it is on a trajectory towards.
The U.K. signed up for a common market for goods and services, but, as with all other EU members, has seen its very sovereignty whittled away.
It astounds me that an Editorial Board sitting in an equally myopic New York has the audacity to question the UK's withdrawal from an EU that they so clearly do not understand.
There is no way the US would allow so many of its basic sovereign rights to be absorbed by a supranational government that is not directly elected by the population.
What astounds me about Brexit is that it came as such a surprise, and it took so long. The writing was on the wall many years ago.
The EU's response is to get out the batons and start dishing out as much economic pain to the UK that no other member country will seriously consider leaving. That response will only delay the inevitable departure of other States, but by that time the animosity may well be at dangerous levels.
12
The issues laid out in this analysis are clearly and helpfully stated, although one noted 'question' (i.e., whether the success of the “leave” voters who have similar frustrations and angers as those who support Trump here in the US, 'presages a Trump victory') is off-base.
The economic and societal pressures that Britain faced regarding its membership in the EU have been brewing for years, and are vastly different than the pressures the U.S. is under in grappling with the nomination of a rich, racist bully for our Presidency.
One can only hope that the U.S. and the U.K. will weather our storms and each address the multitude of issues arising out of our current respective dilemmas using hard work and common sense, with a touch of humor to boot. These traits have kept both of our societies afloat for hundreds of years...
The economic and societal pressures that Britain faced regarding its membership in the EU have been brewing for years, and are vastly different than the pressures the U.S. is under in grappling with the nomination of a rich, racist bully for our Presidency.
One can only hope that the U.S. and the U.K. will weather our storms and each address the multitude of issues arising out of our current respective dilemmas using hard work and common sense, with a touch of humor to boot. These traits have kept both of our societies afloat for hundreds of years...
1
The UK has lived for almost a century with "foreigners" who have emigrated there of all colors and religions, without more than minor perturbations here and there: but all are citizens under the Commonwealth.
The EU citizenship offered (pushed by Tony Blair) to Eastern European countries permitted massive migration from these poorer nations with little experience of democracy into the UK and it is they who have accepted lower wages and likely displaced UK workers who might be Africans, Pakistanis, Indians or other Asians from the former Empire.
That is one source of irritation to the Brits. However, one other factor no one is talking about is the role of Rupert Murdoch's press in pushing the Brexit vote...
The EU citizenship offered (pushed by Tony Blair) to Eastern European countries permitted massive migration from these poorer nations with little experience of democracy into the UK and it is they who have accepted lower wages and likely displaced UK workers who might be Africans, Pakistanis, Indians or other Asians from the former Empire.
That is one source of irritation to the Brits. However, one other factor no one is talking about is the role of Rupert Murdoch's press in pushing the Brexit vote...
1
One of Murdoch's papers supported Brexit ( The Sun), the other (The Times) did not
All the emphasis is on the uprise of "populism" and the blame is one those who are rich, privileged, in power. I'll acknowledge the element of truth in all this. But ultimately we have lived as if the problems of overpopulation, misuse of the planet, attempts to eradicate cultural differences (through globalization) contempt for cultural and racial differences, and the destruction of the planet and unravelling of the economic system (based on greed and inequality) have not been coming for years. We are all culpable. We have all tried to fight for our own power, identity, security, greediness in a human but destructive attempt to avoid the serious problems developing. Shame on us. We have sought solutions in nativism and nationalism, while others have sought solutions in individualism or identity politics. What we have ignored is that there are too many of us fighting for scarce resources, and when we experience that we blame each other for the problem. It is heartbreakingly sad. But by the age of 8 I could see it coming, and I have wondered for that long when the world might start to come apart and how. And it seems perilously close at the moment. I do not know if there is any hope, but if we could all begin to grieve together for how we have destroyed each other, cultures, languages, and our planet, then we would be closer to the "truth" of what has happened than the "angry populists" suggest. I understand anger, but why are we not all weeping. Norma
2
On the other hand, this just might be the shot across the bows that the EU needs to prevent the exit of other countries. If the EU quickly sought a consensus on immigration, austerity, debt forgiveness, guaranteed employment, and transfer payments to the poorer segments of the European community, the British Parliament might be persuaded to ignore the referendum.
1
The people who voted to leave the EU are indeed eerily similar to Trump's supporters. What motivates both is the effects of globalization (movement of jobs to countries where labor is cheap) and immigration (movement of people who compete for jobs at home). There are, however some differences.
Globalization affects everyone who is on the wrong end of it, but it's a fact of life in the 21st century, and what affected countries should be doing is protect the vunerable until the dust settles, which it will eventually.
In the UK, as part of the EU, legal immigration is a right of a citizen of any member country. At one time any citizen of the British Commonwealth had a similar right of immigration to the UK, but this later had to be restricted. After the UK joined the EU, and the number of countries in the EU expanded to include the eastern European countries, among others, the flood gates opened again. In both the UK and US there is a body of (white) people who wish the country was as it used to be in their youth, and they are in the Leave/Trump camp. What drives the others is different; in the UK it's legal immigration from the EU and in the US it's mainly illegal immigration (unless you're a Muslim).
Globalization affects everyone who is on the wrong end of it, but it's a fact of life in the 21st century, and what affected countries should be doing is protect the vunerable until the dust settles, which it will eventually.
In the UK, as part of the EU, legal immigration is a right of a citizen of any member country. At one time any citizen of the British Commonwealth had a similar right of immigration to the UK, but this later had to be restricted. After the UK joined the EU, and the number of countries in the EU expanded to include the eastern European countries, among others, the flood gates opened again. In both the UK and US there is a body of (white) people who wish the country was as it used to be in their youth, and they are in the Leave/Trump camp. What drives the others is different; in the UK it's legal immigration from the EU and in the US it's mainly illegal immigration (unless you're a Muslim).
2
"The people who voted to leave the EU are indeed eerily similar to Trump's supporters."
Really? How do you know that? When was the last time you visited a devastated former industrial town in Britian's north, hm?
Next time you plan a vacation, try a visit up to the old mill town of Oldham. Then come back and talk to us about "Trump supporters".
Really? How do you know that? When was the last time you visited a devastated former industrial town in Britian's north, hm?
Next time you plan a vacation, try a visit up to the old mill town of Oldham. Then come back and talk to us about "Trump supporters".
1
The failure of political institutions to address the needs of ordinary citizens produced the UK Brexit catastrophe. The UK will be poorer (smaller with Scotland and Ireland certain to leave for the EU) and with diminished political clout. And the average Brit will likely suffer the brunt of the pain to come as the EU punishes the UK for its reckless decision to plunge the world into financial insecurity because they were unable to find a mechanism within the EU to address their issues.
4
I am loathe to admit it, but the forces of hate are much stronger than I imagined. Some of those forces reside, or hide, within Bernie Sanders multitude of supporters. Sanders is proving to be more important, but less capable, as a "leader" than I imagined as well. As with most men who find themselves to be more important and powerful than they fully deserve to be, he is holding out for too much and for too long, not fully concerned with the consequences. If he doesn't support Clinton soon, the U.S, and the World, will be in a much worse position for the next generation or more. I hope he doesn't feel the Bern too strongly then.
5
People seem to think the vote to exit was economic. They cold not be more wrong. This is not a vote driven by frustration over elitist exploitation of the lower class, it is driven by anti-immigrant xenophobia. It will bring about no changes that will benefit the lower class. I thought America had a monopoly on people easily manipulated into voting against there own interests. Welcome to the club.
7
On the contrary and clearly you did not spend any time viewing and listening to the discussion in Britain and much like the disconnected from reality Washington Bubble, you will notice the bulk of those remain votes occurred in and around the London Bubble, a financial center wishing to stay with the status quo. Look at the outlying areas where thousands of manufacturing jobs have disappeared and the middle class along with it and you will find significant parallels with what is going in America, hence, the vote. Immigration is just part of the whole economic picture and the frustration with the power brokers.
3
"It was a cry of anger and frustration from more than half the country against those who wield power, wealth and privilege, both in their own government and in Brussels, and against global forces in a world that they felt was squeezing them out."
Well, NYT, I'm especially frustrated (still) by your refusal to recognize the legitimacy and strength of these sentiments being expressed through Sen. Sanders' campaign. At the very least, he recognized and addressed those millions of voters who feel that way, with creativity, directness, honesty and a series of tried-and-true programs and policies.
No, the NYT continued to minimize and dismiss those Americans, ridiculing Sanders and his followers. 'Now that he's out of the way, let's get back to the coronation.' No, the NYT continued to underestimate the feelings of voters, who, feeling similar frustrations, instead went to anger, bigotry, irrationality and xenophobia as expressed by Trump.
The NYT and HRC have steadfastly assumed they could continue the same failed policies that have been enriching the 1%, undermining the middle class and the poor. Pushing through is not an option. I truly hope that HRC and the DNC finally get the picture, and act responsively, effectively and compassionately, and not just act in her predictable ways to keep power in the same old hands. Britain is showing us the results of that.
Well, NYT, I'm especially frustrated (still) by your refusal to recognize the legitimacy and strength of these sentiments being expressed through Sen. Sanders' campaign. At the very least, he recognized and addressed those millions of voters who feel that way, with creativity, directness, honesty and a series of tried-and-true programs and policies.
No, the NYT continued to minimize and dismiss those Americans, ridiculing Sanders and his followers. 'Now that he's out of the way, let's get back to the coronation.' No, the NYT continued to underestimate the feelings of voters, who, feeling similar frustrations, instead went to anger, bigotry, irrationality and xenophobia as expressed by Trump.
The NYT and HRC have steadfastly assumed they could continue the same failed policies that have been enriching the 1%, undermining the middle class and the poor. Pushing through is not an option. I truly hope that HRC and the DNC finally get the picture, and act responsively, effectively and compassionately, and not just act in her predictable ways to keep power in the same old hands. Britain is showing us the results of that.
11
"Defying the warnings of every major economic and political institution in Britain, Europe and the United States, millions of voters across Britain concluded that a gamble on a dangerous unknown was better than staying with a present over which they felt they had lost control. It was a cry of anger and frustration from more than half the country against those who wield power, wealth and privilege, both in their own government and in Brussels, and against global forces in a world that they felt was squeezing them out."
I'm not sure that you realize that you explained perfectly why Brexit won. It was in the interests of the economic and political institutions and their elite, and not in the interests of the citizenry a large, the working class. There is a revolution, more of a smoldering surge at this point, of defiance of the elites who are running the planet into the ground, for the sake of the wealth of the one percent. More will come.
I'm not sure that you realize that you explained perfectly why Brexit won. It was in the interests of the economic and political institutions and their elite, and not in the interests of the citizenry a large, the working class. There is a revolution, more of a smoldering surge at this point, of defiance of the elites who are running the planet into the ground, for the sake of the wealth of the one percent. More will come.
18
Sorry. You over-simplify the BREXIT decision to the point of incredulity.
It's far more than the class-struggle you paint it as being -- I suggest you Google Nigel Farage and the UKIP to get a closer look into some of the darker forces at work here....and you might even recognize a certain similarity between them and Mr. Trump.
It's far more than the class-struggle you paint it as being -- I suggest you Google Nigel Farage and the UKIP to get a closer look into some of the darker forces at work here....and you might even recognize a certain similarity between them and Mr. Trump.
Well said - although I doubt the TIMES and the rest of the metro elites are listening . . . anymore than they listened while trying to persuade small fraying countries in Europe to take in half of Africa and Middle East "no matter what the cost".
2
Many folks are missing the point here in the USA. Trump is the right-wing nut that wants the same type of isolation and nativism. He and the Palin ilk will try to take advantage; but the solution is not HRC. She represents the same interests that Trump represents: big everything... ag, oil, pharma, finance, etc.
We require representatives that will enact campaign finance reform and will stop taking "big" money; also one who wants to make the working-class, rather than the rich, the focus of government. HRC is the status quo.
We are missing an opportunity for required change by not electing a Sanders or a Warren type, those who actually represent the people, and back it up with action, e.g., not taking contributions from the big interests and thus only taking funds from the people. HRC is a hypocrite; she will be better than Trump, but not by much.
We're next for an uprising, and this is the peaceful movement Sanders advocates. It will get ugly with Trump or HRC, so get prepared for tragedy with either one of those choices.
We require representatives that will enact campaign finance reform and will stop taking "big" money; also one who wants to make the working-class, rather than the rich, the focus of government. HRC is the status quo.
We are missing an opportunity for required change by not electing a Sanders or a Warren type, those who actually represent the people, and back it up with action, e.g., not taking contributions from the big interests and thus only taking funds from the people. HRC is a hypocrite; she will be better than Trump, but not by much.
We're next for an uprising, and this is the peaceful movement Sanders advocates. It will get ugly with Trump or HRC, so get prepared for tragedy with either one of those choices.
3
I believe ultimately, individuals like Sanders and Warren, contrary to some of the establishment rhetoric, have preached fairness in American society, NOT isolationism and , in many respects, that is probably the main reason why many of those in Britain who voted to leave did so. With global economies and wealth concentrating in fewer and fewer hands this democratic process was a way of telling the power brokers you cannot have it all at the expense of everyone else.
1
The West is self-destructing every day -most people are too busy spending way too many hours working and taking care of their daily needs to notice. People need time to reflect and ponder about the big picture. Unfortunately it is the unemployed or underemployed who have become the thinkers and they decided to start the revolution. Good or bad ? We or our children shall see when the dust settles years from now.
1
When you turn your media over to oligarchs like Rupert Murdoch, the screaming bigotry cannot be countered.
And remember, it's only an advisory vote. The Great Men of Parliament still have the final say, despite the public's being fomented into a xenophobic frenzy. And as we see from the US's recent debate about firearms, the will of the majority of people (good or bad) is easily overcome by moneyed interests, who have the greater influence in politics.
And remember, it's only an advisory vote. The Great Men of Parliament still have the final say, despite the public's being fomented into a xenophobic frenzy. And as we see from the US's recent debate about firearms, the will of the majority of people (good or bad) is easily overcome by moneyed interests, who have the greater influence in politics.
This tells me two things
1] As usual folly beats optimism. The world is coming apart. We also have the same "Cutting off the nose to spite the face" crew here in this country.
“People have always been very discontented with governments, laws and public institutions; for the most part, however, this has been only because they have been ready to blame them for the wretchedness which pertains to human existence as such”.
Schopenhauer
2] This Brit debacle also tells me Trump can win.
1] As usual folly beats optimism. The world is coming apart. We also have the same "Cutting off the nose to spite the face" crew here in this country.
“People have always been very discontented with governments, laws and public institutions; for the most part, however, this has been only because they have been ready to blame them for the wretchedness which pertains to human existence as such”.
Schopenhauer
2] This Brit debacle also tells me Trump can win.
2
"It was a cry of anger and frustration from more than half the country against those who wield power, wealth and privilege..."
Just as in personal relationships, acting out of anger on a political scale is usually not the best idea. We have anger being stoked in the United States as a campaign strategy with an added unhealthy dose of fear. Let's hope (and work!) for rational & thoughtful ways to address our concerns. We are warned.
Just as in personal relationships, acting out of anger on a political scale is usually not the best idea. We have anger being stoked in the United States as a campaign strategy with an added unhealthy dose of fear. Let's hope (and work!) for rational & thoughtful ways to address our concerns. We are warned.
2
The problem is that if the power brokers were not myopically focused on maximizing their profits at the expense of everyone else and taken off the horse blinkers and enacted some social responsibility in their approaches to the people and world around them, probably none of this uprising would have ever happened.
It's not just a matter of "nationalist, antiglobalization and anti-immigrant sentiments." It's a more general problem in the advanced democracies. An elite in these societies is abandoning democratic processes and the protection of individuals for the sake of large programs of social reform that are being forced down on people. These elites have forsaken democratic culture and process because they "know" better than most other people what the "right" thing to do is--so why go through democratic processes? This is a suicidal stance for leadership in democracies. It opens the door for some truly terrible possibilities to take root.
7
I identify as liberal, if contradictory. As my 20 year old son noted "Mom, you're the only person your age (49 ) who supports Bernie Sanders." I am pro-environment, anti-gun,, among many other views. We reside in the heart of affluent suburbia; my family and I are fortunate to experience the ubiquitousness of cultural diversity. Our neighborhood and schools benefit from the immense rewards of law-abiding, achievement -oriented immigrants/"foreigners". These are the groups (no matter their religions) and nationalities I am more than happy to welcome to our country. That alone might secure me in the camp that typifies the belief that Britain should remain in the EU.
However, I am elated at the "leave" outcome. Among other reasons, the most significant victory it represents is the power to limit illegal immigration. From growing up in rural America to adulthood iresidency in a major metro area, I have noted over the decades the negative impact of mass migration from our southern border . I believe the cultural impact from absorbing those opportunistic nationalities is a net disadvantage for our country . I welcome the idea that a country can harness its collective desire to maintain stromg borders while decidedly choosing what immigrants it will accept.
Perhaps I am an outlier; on the other hand, there may be many, many other people who also have core beliefs that defy any presumptive affiliation
However, I am elated at the "leave" outcome. Among other reasons, the most significant victory it represents is the power to limit illegal immigration. From growing up in rural America to adulthood iresidency in a major metro area, I have noted over the decades the negative impact of mass migration from our southern border . I believe the cultural impact from absorbing those opportunistic nationalities is a net disadvantage for our country . I welcome the idea that a country can harness its collective desire to maintain stromg borders while decidedly choosing what immigrants it will accept.
Perhaps I am an outlier; on the other hand, there may be many, many other people who also have core beliefs that defy any presumptive affiliation
153
Perhaps rather than an "outlier," you are simply misinformed. The issue in Britain wasn't "illegal" immigration, but legal movement among countries within the EU. This also allowed UK citizens to travel freely throughout the EU and work in other countries—something that's benefited family members I have in both the Republic of Ireland and London.
The danger to good jobs for Americans isn't "mass migration from our southern border." The jobs in which I see the greatest concentration of Mexican and other Spanish-speaking workers (I don't know whether they're here legally or not) is in jobs such as maid service, construction, landscaping, agricultural labor, and other poor-paying, physically demanding work. Competition for those jobs isn't what's destroying the middle class. Outsourcing and replacing skilled Americans with HB1 visa workers has a much greater impact on middle-class jobs.
As for "opportunistic nationalities," I know some Native Americans who could tell you who those are.
The danger to good jobs for Americans isn't "mass migration from our southern border." The jobs in which I see the greatest concentration of Mexican and other Spanish-speaking workers (I don't know whether they're here legally or not) is in jobs such as maid service, construction, landscaping, agricultural labor, and other poor-paying, physically demanding work. Competition for those jobs isn't what's destroying the middle class. Outsourcing and replacing skilled Americans with HB1 visa workers has a much greater impact on middle-class jobs.
As for "opportunistic nationalities," I know some Native Americans who could tell you who those are.
4
I too am a liberal, 54 year old woman, enthusiastic Bernie supporter! But I must differ with respect to the UK leaving the EU.
History has shown, over and over, that European countries as distinct entities, have seemed unable to respect boundaries or accept minority groups, no matter how assimilated! Yes, Germany and Serbia, I am referring to you both! Hence, world wars and regional conflicts abound.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Many right wing parties will possibly prevail in upcoming elections; the precedent has been set. I suspect more member states will vote to disembark from the EU in the not to distant future.
Is this a portent of things to come in the U.S. election? Should he who shall remain nameless actually have a chance to ascend to the presidency of the United States?
Hmmm, where shall I go? Anyone looking for a child civil rights attorney on Mars perhaps??
History has shown, over and over, that European countries as distinct entities, have seemed unable to respect boundaries or accept minority groups, no matter how assimilated! Yes, Germany and Serbia, I am referring to you both! Hence, world wars and regional conflicts abound.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Many right wing parties will possibly prevail in upcoming elections; the precedent has been set. I suspect more member states will vote to disembark from the EU in the not to distant future.
Is this a portent of things to come in the U.S. election? Should he who shall remain nameless actually have a chance to ascend to the presidency of the United States?
Hmmm, where shall I go? Anyone looking for a child civil rights attorney on Mars perhaps??
2
I may be mistaken but few of the "immigrants" that are part of Britains problem actually come form areas that they formerly did not control. the largest part of their immigrant population comes from their former colonies. The few Syrians and other Mid east refugees (?) are not their main problem.
We have the same problem in the USA. Too many news outlets suggest we are overrun with Muslim terrorists but they don't hold a candle to the more than 11 million undocumented workers who have crossed the border to provide cheap labor to American businesses. But question always remains, are you willing to pay more for goods and services to not have the illegal immigrant problem that we have? are you willing to have less in your life, and as a consequence, businesses may close due to less sales and therefore unemployment will climb. Those are the questions to ask yourself, and every should be asking those questions too.
The condition of the world is based on decisions that PEOPLE MAKE--it doesn't come out of the blue.
We have the same problem in the USA. Too many news outlets suggest we are overrun with Muslim terrorists but they don't hold a candle to the more than 11 million undocumented workers who have crossed the border to provide cheap labor to American businesses. But question always remains, are you willing to pay more for goods and services to not have the illegal immigrant problem that we have? are you willing to have less in your life, and as a consequence, businesses may close due to less sales and therefore unemployment will climb. Those are the questions to ask yourself, and every should be asking those questions too.
The condition of the world is based on decisions that PEOPLE MAKE--it doesn't come out of the blue.
Let's see if the South and some other GOP states decide they want to leave the United States of America. I'm sure they'll find a good reason in Trump's support of Brexit and a blueprint in how Britain did it. Then they'll have to develop their own currencies, give up what they get from the federal government, and stop complaining about the two coasts that they feel run America.
In the meantime, we get to see if this Brexit actually occurs because there is a lot more than just a vote to end the relationships here. Even as this is being portrayed as final, we don't know what will happen in the future or behind the scenes.
In the meantime, we get to see if this Brexit actually occurs because there is a lot more than just a vote to end the relationships here. Even as this is being portrayed as final, we don't know what will happen in the future or behind the scenes.
Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. Now that Brexit has won, will Scotland pull out of the UK and apply as an independent nation for EU membership?
Is this a wake up call for Americans, who are similarly inclined to nationalism that Trump is not the answer? If the UK performs well on the economic front over the next four months, Americans might very well believe that isolationism and Trump is the answer!
Is this a wake up call for Americans, who are similarly inclined to nationalism that Trump is not the answer? If the UK performs well on the economic front over the next four months, Americans might very well believe that isolationism and Trump is the answer!
"and grousing about immigrants, "
People have a right to control their borders and allow the number of immigrants they can absorb to minimize the negative impact in terms of the economy and culture.
Yes I included culture. It's not wrong to state certain immigrants bring different and sometimes opposing values held by a majority of the current residents. It's not racist to say this is a valid concern on the part of the current residents. And there's nothing xenophobic about it.
Use of the word "grousing" is an attempt to minimize or dismiss these concerns without even acknowledging it is a legitimate issue. It only demonstrates the arrogance of the NY Times' editorial board.
People have a right to control their borders and allow the number of immigrants they can absorb to minimize the negative impact in terms of the economy and culture.
Yes I included culture. It's not wrong to state certain immigrants bring different and sometimes opposing values held by a majority of the current residents. It's not racist to say this is a valid concern on the part of the current residents. And there's nothing xenophobic about it.
Use of the word "grousing" is an attempt to minimize or dismiss these concerns without even acknowledging it is a legitimate issue. It only demonstrates the arrogance of the NY Times' editorial board.
7
"Voters took a gamble on a dangerous unknown."
Yes, compared to a dangerous known, conservative policies. Austerity was a failure which helped to destroy the middle class. The voters are now blindly swinging out and may eventually hit the right target, conservatives.
Yes, compared to a dangerous known, conservative policies. Austerity was a failure which helped to destroy the middle class. The voters are now blindly swinging out and may eventually hit the right target, conservatives.
3
A great day for democracy. The socialist EU is a failure.
5
Long live the Queen!!
Shall we re-think what happened in 1776 now that the UK is so wonderful?
Shall we re-think what happened in 1776 now that the UK is so wonderful?
In addition to the enormous global concerns, I fear my modest retirement savings will take a considerable hit.
3
"But there should be no illusion that it is a very different reality."
I don't think this sentence says what you intended it to say. I think you left a "not" out in there somewhere.
I don't think this sentence says what you intended it to say. I think you left a "not" out in there somewhere.
1. This is a Y2K panic all over again. There will be some legal and financial bumps, but it will work itself out. Once other EU nations see how relatively easy this was- they will follow.
2. If globalization were working, this wouldn't have happened.
3. Relax-It's only uncertainty.
2. If globalization were working, this wouldn't have happened.
3. Relax-It's only uncertainty.
8
Your comment may be far too sane to be appreciated, Aaron.
1
Eerily similar to Trump's followers??
Oh yes, the US indeed has its own version of the "Brexit" campaign, only in this case the followers of the Orange Buffoon show signs of Brain Exit...
"Let's elect a crude racist with no relevant experience and a short fuse - yeah, that's the ticket!"
Brain Exit
Oh yes, the US indeed has its own version of the "Brexit" campaign, only in this case the followers of the Orange Buffoon show signs of Brain Exit...
"Let's elect a crude racist with no relevant experience and a short fuse - yeah, that's the ticket!"
Brain Exit
7
It seems that the only acceptable migrants are the global elite themselves. Everyone else stay home.
1
If the issues were as clear-cut as the editorial writers proclaim this would not likely have been such a divisive vote. The exit has is advantages and disadvantages and only time will reveal the ramifications (many of which probably have been unforeseen
5
A strong rebuke for bureaucrats and regulations
6
Angela Merkel can take some "credit" for Brexit. Certainly, her policy of unfettered entry to Muslims and the fears they engender stoked xenophobia in what may soon be the former United Kingdom.
8
Wouldn't the better photo to accompany this article be either the European Union flag on the ground like litter... or the British AND the Euro flag in the gutter?
Perhaps even get artistic and take the 12 circling gold stars of the EU flag and twist them from their circle of unity into a spiral...
And while you are at it, perhaps a tie-dyed British flag to represent what they were smoking before they cast their ballots...
Perhaps even get artistic and take the 12 circling gold stars of the EU flag and twist them from their circle of unity into a spiral...
And while you are at it, perhaps a tie-dyed British flag to represent what they were smoking before they cast their ballots...
3
It ought to worry the cheerers more than it does, that this vote's rooted in racial hatred, ignorance of factual reality, stunning ignorance of basic economics, and disdain for consequences.
For all its problems, the EU has acted as a counterweight to Russia, to say nothing of a way to keep the peace in Europe itself.
I hope you like the economic problems, rises of the shabby likes of Marie le Pen, splitting up of Great Britain that you get, to say nothing of the smirk Putin'll be wearing.
And yes, working people in this country are going to get hurt.
For all its problems, the EU has acted as a counterweight to Russia, to say nothing of a way to keep the peace in Europe itself.
I hope you like the economic problems, rises of the shabby likes of Marie le Pen, splitting up of Great Britain that you get, to say nothing of the smirk Putin'll be wearing.
And yes, working people in this country are going to get hurt.
3
The anger and frustrations of the masses has overflowed. No dam in the world can contain it. Sanders. Trump and Brexit are one side of the same coin. The people felt scorned and helpless - until now. They seem to feel vindicated that they do matter, that they count, that they CAN change outcomes and not be sheep. Thank God, there is no guillotine in our current times.
6
I'm sure there are a few laying around in museums that can be dusted off and oiled up.
Working class US citizens should be very angry at Bill and Hillary Clinton and their “Established Mainstream Politicians” who are controlled by their elite “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) campaign contributors who paid these politicians to create all of the FREE TRADE laws that economically required that our US STEM manufacturing jobs relocate to foreign nations when US citizens do not agree to work for the same wages that Third World citizens are glad to work for.
Ex-President Bill Clinton could have said, "Once you were employed and were able to feed your family, so I signed NAFTA into law and that caused your manufacturing job to relocate to Mexico because you would not agree to work for the same wages that Mexican citizens would work for."
Then President Clinton could have also said, "Once you were employed and were able to feed your family, so I created PNTR for Communist China and this caused your manufacturing jobs to relocate to China because you would not agree to work for the same wages that Chinese citizens would work for."
President Bush then could have said, "Once you were employed and were able to feed your family, so I created fourteen additional Free Trade Agreements (with Jordan, Morocco, and other young democracies of Central America) and this caused your manufacturing jobs to relocate to these third world nations because you would not agree to work for the same wages that citizens in these third world nations would work for."
Ex-President Bill Clinton could have said, "Once you were employed and were able to feed your family, so I signed NAFTA into law and that caused your manufacturing job to relocate to Mexico because you would not agree to work for the same wages that Mexican citizens would work for."
Then President Clinton could have also said, "Once you were employed and were able to feed your family, so I created PNTR for Communist China and this caused your manufacturing jobs to relocate to China because you would not agree to work for the same wages that Chinese citizens would work for."
President Bush then could have said, "Once you were employed and were able to feed your family, so I created fourteen additional Free Trade Agreements (with Jordan, Morocco, and other young democracies of Central America) and this caused your manufacturing jobs to relocate to these third world nations because you would not agree to work for the same wages that citizens in these third world nations would work for."
10
And then President Obama could have said, "Once you were employed and were able to feed your family, so I created a bunch of multiple new Free Trade Agreements with South Korea, Vietnam, Brunei, Singapore, Malaysia, New Zealand, Australia, Chile, and Peru plus several other Asian and South American nations and this caused your manufacturing jobs to relocate to these third world nations because you would not agree to work for the same wages that citizens in these third world nations would work for."
If you think that all of Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama’s existing Free Trade Agreements (FTAs), Most Favored Nation (MFNs) trade statuses, and Permanent Normal Trade Relation (PNTRs) trade statuses with third world nations that these gentlemen granted (as their “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTORS directed them to do) to third world nations were destructive for US middle class wages and manufacturing employment, relocating middle class US jobs to foreign nations, and LOWERING THE MIDDLE CLASS PAY scale, and eliminated benefits for middle class US workers, then you had better hold onto YOUR HAT for when President Obama's PPT Pacific Rim Treaty to comes into effect to relocate middle class US jobs to third world nations on an unlimited multi-nation WHOLESALE every possible product basis.
Middle class jobs are very important to voters, but the politicians are all apparently in favor of President Obama's new secret Pacific Rim Trade (TPP) treaties.
If you think that all of Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama’s existing Free Trade Agreements (FTAs), Most Favored Nation (MFNs) trade statuses, and Permanent Normal Trade Relation (PNTRs) trade statuses with third world nations that these gentlemen granted (as their “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTORS directed them to do) to third world nations were destructive for US middle class wages and manufacturing employment, relocating middle class US jobs to foreign nations, and LOWERING THE MIDDLE CLASS PAY scale, and eliminated benefits for middle class US workers, then you had better hold onto YOUR HAT for when President Obama's PPT Pacific Rim Treaty to comes into effect to relocate middle class US jobs to third world nations on an unlimited multi-nation WHOLESALE every possible product basis.
Middle class jobs are very important to voters, but the politicians are all apparently in favor of President Obama's new secret Pacific Rim Trade (TPP) treaties.
2
How can you characterize Britain as shocked and confused by what a majority of their voters approved? Clearly, most Britons are neither shocked nor confused by the outcome.
Does the NY Times really believe that it is foolish for people to have a say on the most fundamental issues of sovereignty and constitution? That's a rhetorical question, because of course the answer is yes. The Times' editorial staff is strongly committed to an ideology wherein the elites, the avant-garde, rule over the masses for the good of all.
Ironically, the British made the same decision we did in 1776, to reject unelected, unrepresentative, unaccountable government from afar, willing to risk profound uncertainty in order to secure self-governance and popular sovereignty. In the end, perhaps it should come as no surprise that the English drove this peaceful rebellion, just as the American Colonists rebelled over being denied their rights as Englishmen. May God bless our English cousins on their day of independence.
Does the NY Times really believe that it is foolish for people to have a say on the most fundamental issues of sovereignty and constitution? That's a rhetorical question, because of course the answer is yes. The Times' editorial staff is strongly committed to an ideology wherein the elites, the avant-garde, rule over the masses for the good of all.
Ironically, the British made the same decision we did in 1776, to reject unelected, unrepresentative, unaccountable government from afar, willing to risk profound uncertainty in order to secure self-governance and popular sovereignty. In the end, perhaps it should come as no surprise that the English drove this peaceful rebellion, just as the American Colonists rebelled over being denied their rights as Englishmen. May God bless our English cousins on their day of independence.
23
This just proves that anytime voters are given a real shot of direct democracy, they vote against the order dictated to them by the political intelligentsia.
The political elites failed in their task to scare enough britons into continuing submission.
The political elites failed in their task to scare enough britons into continuing submission.
15
Scaring people into submission. So right. That is exactly what the Democratic Party is trying to do to get Sanders' supporters to vote for Hillary. I'm no fan of Donald but if electing him will help the end of establishment politics as we know it, then I'm on board.
1
"Calamity?" As the saying goes, economists have predicted ten of the last three recessions. In 5 years, no one will remember which year Britain's exited the EU. Feel free to resume breathing.
10
The revolution has begun.
9
We can only hope...
Britain is the canary, NYT. Your open borders, mass immigration from the Third World shtick (including calling anyone who disapprove as "xenophobic racists") is coming to an end. It was always treasonous from the get go. Good for the British to call it like it is. Our Founders were British too.
22
One of the main charters of the EU was not just economic ties within the coalition of countries but a manner to keep peace in Europe. This peace is not a protection from Russia but from themselves. Europe has a long history of war that wages almost every decade. Will we now see a military buildup of France and Germany who will feel jilted by Britain? Will they feel the need to protect themselves from each other and immigrants? Will them become a fearful xenophobic group like our United States? Remember that the war and genocide of the '90's in Europe was not that long ago.
45
I don't think France and Germany will feel they need to build up military might to protect them from Britain. Russia, maybe. But I definitely think many of their people will feel the need to build up their military to protect themselves from the endless waves of desperate people coming from the Middle East and Africa. Whether we like it or not, the inequality that produces such populist anger within our own countries is nothing compared to the inequality that exists between even our relatively poor people and the far more poor in the third world, who are literally starving to death. Much as the elites in the first world fight to keep their privileges over their own citizens, our countries will need to fight to keep what we have from the far too many who want to get it. There simply is not enough to go around for 8 billion to enjoy comfort and prosperity, so who will get to have it? That is the epic question of our era, and the elites are trying to ignore it at their peril. Unfortunately, I do not believe we will all willingly settle for less so those without can have more. World War III is coming, but it will not be between Britain and Germany. It will be between the first world and the third, and we should all remember that the third world fights very, very dirty.
2
Yes, I'm sure that after a decade-plus of fighting together in Iraq and Afghanistan coalition forces, Britain, France, and Germany will be at each other's throats the second Article 50 is finished. Come on, man.
1
j fink,
The mere fact that you think there will be a war between France and Germany
because England withdraws from the EU makes you wonder why there was not another war between the two before England joined the EU.
The mere fact that you think there will be a war between France and Germany
because England withdraws from the EU makes you wonder why there was not another war between the two before England joined the EU.
1
So, it's not good that a country that makes a union with other countries can leave it freely and voluntarily and still trade, participate in each other's security, while having its own sovereignty and no war? Why? I'd say we've come a long way.
Other countries like Switzerland and Norway aren't in the union but are successful. They have accommodations with the EU. Britain isn't closing its end of the Chunnel. Its still an ally and trading partner.
A majority of Brits, and there was a huge turnout, did not want to go down the path of endless regulations and they were concerned about immigration and open borders.
The hand wringing about Trump, Nazis, etc., is just astonishing. Markets go down, but they recover if they are financially sound. We all want what we are comfortable with to continue, but this is not momentous. The EU is still so new, I don't even see this as historic. And if other countries leave, then like an unhappy couple, it was not meant to be. They'll be okay if they have a good attitude and cooperate.
When everyone calms down, they will realize that not that much has to change during the separation process (2 years?) and many accommodations and satisfactory deals will be made. And the EU should really look at itself and ask - why did Brits want to leave? Sometimes it's not them - it's you.
Other countries like Switzerland and Norway aren't in the union but are successful. They have accommodations with the EU. Britain isn't closing its end of the Chunnel. Its still an ally and trading partner.
A majority of Brits, and there was a huge turnout, did not want to go down the path of endless regulations and they were concerned about immigration and open borders.
The hand wringing about Trump, Nazis, etc., is just astonishing. Markets go down, but they recover if they are financially sound. We all want what we are comfortable with to continue, but this is not momentous. The EU is still so new, I don't even see this as historic. And if other countries leave, then like an unhappy couple, it was not meant to be. They'll be okay if they have a good attitude and cooperate.
When everyone calms down, they will realize that not that much has to change during the separation process (2 years?) and many accommodations and satisfactory deals will be made. And the EU should really look at itself and ask - why did Brits want to leave? Sometimes it's not them - it's you.
223
You seem to think that the EU is made up of a few page Constitution and all it takes to leave is a couple of deals and off they go. Firstly, the EU is not going to make it easy for the UK. They are not going to get the sweet deals they have now which will definitely affect their economy. And what are they going to do without Scotland who is undoubtedly going to go back to the EU followed closely by Northern Ireland?
1
What is so wrong with a country wanting to have control over its own destiny without having to check with all the other countries first? As one who hates rules and being under the thumb of another, I totally get it.
1
Adrianne - if the problem is the EU is going to make trouble for it and Scotland is going to leave (or, so you think; could be) - in other words threats of retribution - all the more reason to leave. It's not a reason for a person or a country to have a relationship. Besides, I'm not the one who is saying leave - the Brits did. It's t heir choice and everything will be fine. People are acting like Britain is declaring war on the EU.
2
It is easy to dismiss this vote as simple racism and nationalism, but I think the Times and other pundits miss a very large message being sent to the elite: enough is enough.
People are hurting out there thanks to a global economy that mostly benefits large corporations and their well-heeled shareholders. At the same time, the politicians who represent the monied class keep cutting and cutting for the benefit of those who have the most at the expense of the rest of us. Students can no longer afford to attend college. Even our roads and bridges are literally crumbling beneath us.
At some point, it had to stop. The English just fired a warning shot to the rest of the western world that they can see behind the curtain. But so far there is no indication that those pulling all the levers are yet paying attention.
People are hurting out there thanks to a global economy that mostly benefits large corporations and their well-heeled shareholders. At the same time, the politicians who represent the monied class keep cutting and cutting for the benefit of those who have the most at the expense of the rest of us. Students can no longer afford to attend college. Even our roads and bridges are literally crumbling beneath us.
At some point, it had to stop. The English just fired a warning shot to the rest of the western world that they can see behind the curtain. But so far there is no indication that those pulling all the levers are yet paying attention.
480
It maybe true that globalism is hurting some. No commanding of this tide will change it. Even more to the point technology, for example the lack of a need to read the Times on paper, is changing the jobs and economic landscape. Acting out of anger and doing what will do nothing to change the problems will only cause more problems. It is time to tell the Right that the losers from the changes caused by globalism and technology need help from the victors.
1
"At some point, it had to stop. The English just fired a warning shot to the rest of the western world that they can see behind the curtain. But so far there is no indication that those pulling all the levers are yet paying attention."
By referring to the English, are you taking note of the fact that two components of the United Kingdom - Scotland and Northern Ireland - heavily favored "Remain," and might now be considering their own independence referendums from the UK? Or are you confusing English with British?
By referring to the English, are you taking note of the fact that two components of the United Kingdom - Scotland and Northern Ireland - heavily favored "Remain," and might now be considering their own independence referendums from the UK? Or are you confusing English with British?
Fully agree.
Now if we can only vote out most members of Congress.
Do not elect Hillary - "Same old Same Old" Clinton who tells us Common Folk
that she has our backs while taking $ 275,000 for speeches to the
Wall Street Hyenas...
And tax the 1 % to pay their share.
Now if we can only vote out most members of Congress.
Do not elect Hillary - "Same old Same Old" Clinton who tells us Common Folk
that she has our backs while taking $ 275,000 for speeches to the
Wall Street Hyenas...
And tax the 1 % to pay their share.
2
This a good example of how all the liberal attacks on the commen person and his values will not sway his thinking. The NYT might want to run a few less articles criticizing Trump and his supporters.
6
What are the "values of the commen [sic] person and how are they reflected in the candidacy of Donald Trump?
Saddened by the referendum results. Yet part of me does sympathize with a population who feels that their government has repeatedly sold out their best interests in favor of global trade deals. We share that anxiety in the USA.
The parallels between the referendum and the American angst shaping our presidential election are uncanny. The Brits turned towards isolation and faux nostalgia for "real" Britain. What will American turn towards? A rejection of policies which have made the rich richer, offshored our jobs, policed the rest of the world while our own country fell apart, and left the shrinking middle class with stagnant wages? Or will we turn to a boisterous magnifier of our anger in the form of Trump?
Anyone who thinks that Clinton will win in November and then quench this anger by business-as-usual policies are absolutely out of their minds. This seems lost on her, and on the media who treat Sanders and Trump as strange curiosities and not a barometer of the political times.
What scares me isn't the chance of Trump winning. What scares me is what candidate the right will produce in 2020 if this selling out of the middle class continues apace, as I fear it will under Clinton. In 2020, we may find ourselves recalling favorably Trump's agenda compared to whatever terrifying leader emerges after more years of compounded interest on voter anger. Trump and Brexit may turn out to be but a small appetizer for what is to come.
The parallels between the referendum and the American angst shaping our presidential election are uncanny. The Brits turned towards isolation and faux nostalgia for "real" Britain. What will American turn towards? A rejection of policies which have made the rich richer, offshored our jobs, policed the rest of the world while our own country fell apart, and left the shrinking middle class with stagnant wages? Or will we turn to a boisterous magnifier of our anger in the form of Trump?
Anyone who thinks that Clinton will win in November and then quench this anger by business-as-usual policies are absolutely out of their minds. This seems lost on her, and on the media who treat Sanders and Trump as strange curiosities and not a barometer of the political times.
What scares me isn't the chance of Trump winning. What scares me is what candidate the right will produce in 2020 if this selling out of the middle class continues apace, as I fear it will under Clinton. In 2020, we may find ourselves recalling favorably Trump's agenda compared to whatever terrifying leader emerges after more years of compounded interest on voter anger. Trump and Brexit may turn out to be but a small appetizer for what is to come.
12
Let's get one thing straight, NY Times. We are in a three-way race here. You got away with ignoring and minimizing Bernie Sanders' campaign and running all Trump all the time to give your candidate -- you know, the neoliberal -- a bozo who could never beat her to run against.
Now you are back-pedalling with all your might trying to put your Frankenstein back in the bottle as every rabid right-wing racist -- and every low-information voter who knows something is wrong and can't believe it's Walmart -- flocks to back him.
The fight is not between xenophobia on the one hand the the self-evident wonders of predatory capitalism. Democratic socialism is in the mix. It isn't racism versus global trade. It is economic democracy versus financialization and corporate rule.
Keep selling racism abd xenophobia as the bastard child to save neoliberalism, and you will create a monster that destroys us all. Acknowledge that neoliberalism is dead. Let it go, and let sanity not madness take its place.
Now you are back-pedalling with all your might trying to put your Frankenstein back in the bottle as every rabid right-wing racist -- and every low-information voter who knows something is wrong and can't believe it's Walmart -- flocks to back him.
The fight is not between xenophobia on the one hand the the self-evident wonders of predatory capitalism. Democratic socialism is in the mix. It isn't racism versus global trade. It is economic democracy versus financialization and corporate rule.
Keep selling racism abd xenophobia as the bastard child to save neoliberalism, and you will create a monster that destroys us all. Acknowledge that neoliberalism is dead. Let it go, and let sanity not madness take its place.
33
Read the posts of your "allies" here; they are not democratic socialists (rather they are more like national socialists). Exactly what kind of economy would you propose to replace "neo-liberalism" Socialist worker communes? (the proletariat has been largely replaced by technology-including robots). Five Year Plans established by the national party of the people? (gave rise to "elitists" of a nasty magnitude-even during the glory days of the Cultural Revolution in China)
2
I think the US has been living under neoconservatism for so long it has become dyslexic.
“For Americans, a related question is whether the success of the “leave” voters – a group eerily similar to Donald Trump’s followers, motivated by many of the same frustrations and angers – presages a Trump victory.”
This is certainly a bit of a cheap shot on the 16 plus million Leave voters in Britain.
Best wishes to Britain, it will be a rough and contentious road trying to disentangle from Brussels and the vindictiveness of the likes of France and Germany over the Brits departure.
Might not the impact of what you suggest make the departure of Britain from the EU seem tame by comparison.
Trump is the embodiment of Americas’ worst political nightmare. He is a consummate huckster without evident principles, compulsively mendacious, and certainly incompetent to lead the nation.
We are most vulnerable in the hour of our greatest discontent.
This is certainly a bit of a cheap shot on the 16 plus million Leave voters in Britain.
Best wishes to Britain, it will be a rough and contentious road trying to disentangle from Brussels and the vindictiveness of the likes of France and Germany over the Brits departure.
Might not the impact of what you suggest make the departure of Britain from the EU seem tame by comparison.
Trump is the embodiment of Americas’ worst political nightmare. He is a consummate huckster without evident principles, compulsively mendacious, and certainly incompetent to lead the nation.
We are most vulnerable in the hour of our greatest discontent.
4
The pound is plummeting. That will be good for the British working class. Not so great for the rich who summer abroad and will have to change their pounds into Euros or dollars. But I'm sure they'll be fine. A weaker pound will also be better for tourism to Britain. Yes, the British economy May shrink. But what is the benefit of a larger economy when it isn't shared among the masses and when it is built on transactions that simply move money around?
7
We are so linked globally by such events: the occupation of the Malheur Refuge in Oregon represents the same distrust of the other as in the UK-- the other being central regulating government, the financial systems, etc. And it all seems to swirl around fear, lack of trust in leadership and failed leadership. Even carrying laws reflect this kind of fear. We do have fear to fear, in abundance.
3
I believe the same disgust with establishment politicians and their failure to meet the needs who feel alienated by policies that have made their futures insecure is what is feeding both Trump's electoral success and the success of the Brexit vote. It was their way of giving a collective middle finger to the establishment. Maybe if politicians actually did what was good for the country, rather than what is good for their own selfish interests, people would not be drawn to extremes or demagogues.
8
Considering the importance of the moment, there should be a best two out of three referendums. The voting suggests that a major segment of the English population is not happy with the result, which will surface in civil restlessness.
2
Jean Monnet and other far sighted statesmen formed the EU in the spirit of 'never again' to the tribalism that lead to the fascist disaster and destruction of World War II. Many Europeans seem to have forgotten the lesson the EU, however flawed, tried to teach. (As many Americans seem to have forgotten the gains of the New Deal and Civil Rights Movement). The ultimate beneficiary of the possible breakup of the EU is Putin, who will exploit any opening to weaken Europe, especially along the border.
If Putin can place his heavy hand on former Soviet states along Russia's boundary, doubtless he will hesitate.
If Putin can place his heavy hand on former Soviet states along Russia's boundary, doubtless he will hesitate.
1
Unfortunately, these populist revolts rarely affect the top 20% or so of the population, who have the resources to withstand the ebbs and flows of markets and economic changes. More affected are the 80% who support the revolt, hoping to better their lives. Instead, they often find they have revolted themselves out of whatever security they used to have. Globalization is like a Genie in a bottle--once it's out, it can't be put back. If Brits choose to lag behind, they do so at their peril, for the rest of the world will pass them by.
3
There are 27 countries in the EU. There are 195 countries in the world. Gee I wonder how they all manage without being in the EU. Sure there are some hurdles to overcome, Britain will overcome them and this will all blow over. The rest of the world will have forgotten about this by the end of the year.
3
Would it not be more helpful to not overstate the level of calamity? Everyone will go to work next week, the markets will settle down, and Britain will continue to operate under the existing system. The EU has serious problems that will be fatal with or without Britain, and those need to be realistically addressed. Brexit is just a symptom that the problems can no longer be ignored.
8
"Defying the warnings of every major economic and political institution in Britain, Europe and the United States..."
So, when was the last time the admonitions from any of these or other "authoritative" bodies really had in mind the people who work for a living, the people who can't find work, people who are struggling, people who see the rich get richer while they get poorer? Why should Briton's believe them when the existence of these institutions seem to be predicated on grabbing more and more power for themselves? Why should anyone whose fortunes are not directly tied to the privileges these institutions bestow on the very few to the detriment of the very many have any faith in their predictions?
So, when was the last time the admonitions from any of these or other "authoritative" bodies really had in mind the people who work for a living, the people who can't find work, people who are struggling, people who see the rich get richer while they get poorer? Why should Briton's believe them when the existence of these institutions seem to be predicated on grabbing more and more power for themselves? Why should anyone whose fortunes are not directly tied to the privileges these institutions bestow on the very few to the detriment of the very many have any faith in their predictions?
11
Yes, the shoe factories and coal mines should be opening back up in just a few months.
It is scary how so many people are/were willing to take huge risks with the fate of their country these days, in our post-factual democracies. When has anti-intellectualism ever led to anything other than bigotry? The younger generation of Britain has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences they will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by their parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of their predecessors...
7
Has it ever been the case that the Times did not attribute an election, even one in a foreign country, that hasn't gone its way, to "anger and frustration" or something similar? I can however reassure the Times on one point—the Brexit victory will not "presage" a trump victory in November. He will be stopped not by the rantings of the editorial board, but by conservative voters like myself, who will simply refuse to vote for an ignorant and vulgar lout, even if it assures the election of one equally unqualified but who basks in the support of all the major media, who ignore her myriad faults.
8
Give yourself a pat on the back then.
From where I sit, the major media is doing a pretty good job of exposing - or at least reporting on - her myriad faults, in addition to untrue rumors about her; 'them'.
From where I sit, the major media is doing a pretty good job of exposing - or at least reporting on - her myriad faults, in addition to untrue rumors about her; 'them'.
How can you refer to Hillary Clinton as "equally unqualified" as Trump? Her background as a Senator and a Secretary of State counts for nothing?
And you say that she "basks in the support of all the major media, who ignore her myriad faults". The NYTimes has had alot of articles critical of her, in addition to favorable coverage, during the past year.
You can have your reasons for not liking her, but they should be legitimate ones.
And you say that she "basks in the support of all the major media, who ignore her myriad faults". The NYTimes has had alot of articles critical of her, in addition to favorable coverage, during the past year.
You can have your reasons for not liking her, but they should be legitimate ones.
1
This is a wake-up call to US leaders, both liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican. It's time to start listening to voters' concerns about jobs, healthcare, wage stagnation, outsourcing and immigration issues that impact very real concerns about financial security.
It's not about messaging - it's about policy and the very real need for policy change. There is a lot of anger in this country, as there was in Britain, and it is reflected in the more than 60% who feel the US is headed in the wrong direction. Neither the Democrats or the Republicans have addressed the electorates concerns.
It's not about messaging - it's about policy and the very real need for policy change. There is a lot of anger in this country, as there was in Britain, and it is reflected in the more than 60% who feel the US is headed in the wrong direction. Neither the Democrats or the Republicans have addressed the electorates concerns.
14
The Times seems to share the assumptions of a lot of UK voters: "A large proportion of Britain’s internal regulations are based on E.U. rules and will need to be revised." Which ones are bad? The Unfair Terms laws? Good faith? Many Brits may discover that supposed bad EU laws of which they complain are not so bad after all. Or, will they prefer to return to the crude English common law, where caveat emptor prevailed and good faith was denigrated? They may soon have buyer's remorse, but they won't have the right of return that EU law gives consumers!
3
The vote reveals an English social pathology that wants to blame someone else for their insecure, depressed lives. This will drive the Scots and Irish into the lap of the European Union along with the EURO. Then, the English Isle shrinks into insignificance and obscurity. The "City of London" banking will close and transactional finance will move to Wall Street that will begin operations starting at midnight to serve European business. England-styled Nationalism always punishes the Brits but this time the sting will last hundreds of years.
2
Any decision like this always comes down to priorities. Do you prioritize temporary economic stability or do you prioritize sovereignty? Once one is lost, it cannot be reclaimed but the economy will always eventually rebound. The majority just didn't want to continue following regulations set forth by people they didn't elect. This move hurts the EU more than it hurts the UK. The trade will work itself out in due time. Globalism just doesn't work when nations have such fundamentally different values.
10
Sovereignty? When did Western nations start valuing sovereignty? Oh, wait, I know: When it's their own sovereignty that's at stake. We should start a sarcy hashtag movement called "RightWhite," meaning, when you're "white", you're always "right," regardless of the wrongs of your history.
An English friend said an interesting thing to me the other day - before the Brexit vote. Paraphrasing, "The EU is for the advantage of the bureaucrats in Brussels, the multinational banks and financial firms, the Germans, the open borders advocates who want unbridled immigration, and the southern Europeans who want the Northern European's money to spend. Opposed to the EU is the common Briton and those who would prefer to be governed from London."
Interesting, isn't it?
Interesting, isn't it?
20
That globalism has its downsides is an increasingly well-known and undeniable fact. Still, the only real alternative is to erect trade barriers through the imposition of tariffs, a policy known, with good reason, as 'beggar-thy-neighbor.'
The problem here is that you can't beggar your neighbor without beggaring yourself at the same time. That's also an undeniable fact.
What we Americans need is not a new president whose statements suggest that the result of his tenure in the White House would be beggaring-all-around, but a candidate who takes steps to insure that the people now attracted to Trump are helped by government at every level to adjust to and profit from the economic and financial realities--and opportunities--of globalism.
With Brexit, Britain has gone the other way. Its national decline, which has been marked and sometimes severe ever since World War II, will only be hastened by what its people have decided to do. But then Britain has become so fragmented and confused that I doubt if the results of remaining in the EU would have been significantly more acceptable.
In the US, we are far more blessed in many ways. Our creativity and hard work as a people will allow us, with the right leadership, to repair the damage from globalism and go on to out-compete the rest of the world. All we need to add to our admirable mix are government policies that inspire more self-confidence and initiative. We'll prevail where Britain has failed.
The problem here is that you can't beggar your neighbor without beggaring yourself at the same time. That's also an undeniable fact.
What we Americans need is not a new president whose statements suggest that the result of his tenure in the White House would be beggaring-all-around, but a candidate who takes steps to insure that the people now attracted to Trump are helped by government at every level to adjust to and profit from the economic and financial realities--and opportunities--of globalism.
With Brexit, Britain has gone the other way. Its national decline, which has been marked and sometimes severe ever since World War II, will only be hastened by what its people have decided to do. But then Britain has become so fragmented and confused that I doubt if the results of remaining in the EU would have been significantly more acceptable.
In the US, we are far more blessed in many ways. Our creativity and hard work as a people will allow us, with the right leadership, to repair the damage from globalism and go on to out-compete the rest of the world. All we need to add to our admirable mix are government policies that inspire more self-confidence and initiative. We'll prevail where Britain has failed.
1
"...to insure that the people now attracted to Trump are helped by government at every level.."
Being "helped by the government" is precisely what people who are attracted to Trump, and Republicans in general, do not want.
Being "helped by the government" is precisely what people who are attracted to Trump, and Republicans in general, do not want.
The editorial board seems to equate "antiglobalization and anti-immigrant sentiments" with "xenophobic movements". That's a false equivalence in this case. There's a justifiable concern among many folks that large-scale, poorly regulated immigration will cause social and economic damage to the host countries. This damage has already manifested itself in Europe. To portray this concern as xenophobic, or to suggest that it's unreasonable, is inaccurate.
65
I watch this intercontinental train wreck with awe and continue to ask myself the questions: how can the political establishment continue to be so wrong? How can they be so out of touch with the people that they presume to serve? And how can the media be so blind to the realities that the common people deal with every day? The answer is difficult, though obvious. Neither politicians or the media (and this includes you NYT) ever lower themselves enough to talk to commoners. They simply speak to one another and in the echo chamber that results they hear what they want to hear, believe what they want to believe and regurgitate the same disconnected "truths" that make them feel superior and safe at night. This is what gives rise to the Trumps and Hitlers and Marie Le Pens of the world. Cowardly politicians and press who refuse to see or report the truth that stares them in the face until it steamrolls them into oblivion.
476
The politicians aren't "cowardly."
They, like most people, are just following their own interests.
Change their incentives, change their behavior.
President Obama is here in the Bay Area today, visiting with the current winners of the techno-lottery, to beg for bucks. Does he really believe that Mark Zuckerberg has some deep insight into how "connecting people" is good for the country? Probably not, but he will leave with marching orders to issue more HB-1 Visas.
What does the phrase: "globalization benefits us" mean when the distribution of the net benefits goes to portion of the population that already owns most of the wealth? Who is "us?"
They, like most people, are just following their own interests.
Change their incentives, change their behavior.
President Obama is here in the Bay Area today, visiting with the current winners of the techno-lottery, to beg for bucks. Does he really believe that Mark Zuckerberg has some deep insight into how "connecting people" is good for the country? Probably not, but he will leave with marching orders to issue more HB-1 Visas.
What does the phrase: "globalization benefits us" mean when the distribution of the net benefits goes to portion of the population that already owns most of the wealth? Who is "us?"
3
"How can they be so out of touch with the people that they presume to serve?"
.........
1786 all over again and it "used to be good to be the king". Once elected, officials could care much much less about the voters that put them there because voters have exceedingly short memories and continue to RE-ELECT those same people year after year until they become millionaires on the public dime. you can fool me once, shame on you, but you can continue to fool me again and again and shame on ME.
As Bill Clinton famously said" It's the VOTER, stupid".
.........
1786 all over again and it "used to be good to be the king". Once elected, officials could care much much less about the voters that put them there because voters have exceedingly short memories and continue to RE-ELECT those same people year after year until they become millionaires on the public dime. you can fool me once, shame on you, but you can continue to fool me again and again and shame on ME.
As Bill Clinton famously said" It's the VOTER, stupid".
Don't panic!
When the Brexits wake up they will see that they have to compromise with the EU. Like Norway and Switzerland they will accept the principle preconditions to have access to the Common Market.
And the EU ist not primarily Juncker or Wilders, but a club driven by economic interests. The showroom revenge talk is for today, tomorrow the industry will begin to pressure for easy economic relations with the UK.
The UK may loose Scottland to the EU and at the end come up with almost the same dependence from Brussels, but now paying more and having less influence.
When the Brexits wake up they will see that they have to compromise with the EU. Like Norway and Switzerland they will accept the principle preconditions to have access to the Common Market.
And the EU ist not primarily Juncker or Wilders, but a club driven by economic interests. The showroom revenge talk is for today, tomorrow the industry will begin to pressure for easy economic relations with the UK.
The UK may loose Scottland to the EU and at the end come up with almost the same dependence from Brussels, but now paying more and having less influence.
5
Clearly there will be some challenges, and both advantages and disadvantages upon Brexit. But "calamity"? Give us a break. "Dangerous unknown?" Same. Britain existed independently quite well prior to the EU. What is really needed, and what we don't know details of, are trade and labor agreements with the rest of the European nations. A simple set of governing principles, not a massive ineffective bureaucracy. Liberals might be very confused on the Brexit: they lambast the Brexit, but they also implicitly lambast the right of voters in a sovereign nation to cast a vote for their own determination. The Brits don't want to deal with power-hungry bureaucrats in Brussels who try to pull the strings but can't do so effectively. And what's this about "European unity in the face of challenges from Russia"? Russia was able to aggressively and defiantly assert itself *in the face* of so-called European unity, precisely led by an ineffective EU body. Maybe an independent UK will be able to better assert real democratic leadership in the European zone and against Russia. The fear mongering you are providing here is based on nothing but vague and uncertain prognostications that no one can truly predict. It will be up the UK to structure agreements in a post-EU world, and those agreements will determine the future.
3
For the USA this is a cautionary tale. The Political and Economic Elites of the USA should heed the lesson of this vote.
Address the issue of people coming to "The West" due to the rule of law and the accompanying economic and political security all the while not assimilating to the wider social mores that underpin it.
At the same time learn the lesson of what happens when the vast bulk of the population in the middle fears that meaningful work; work that would allow them to have a home and raise a family is not likely to be available.
Don't lean the lesson at your own risk.
Address the issue of people coming to "The West" due to the rule of law and the accompanying economic and political security all the while not assimilating to the wider social mores that underpin it.
At the same time learn the lesson of what happens when the vast bulk of the population in the middle fears that meaningful work; work that would allow them to have a home and raise a family is not likely to be available.
Don't lean the lesson at your own risk.
7
Ten days ago EU President Donald Tusk said Brexit 'could in fact be the start of the process of destruction of not only the EU but also of the Western political civilization'. If he is right they can put his name on the tombstone. His hyperbolic threats against Britain and its voters helped the EU to lose the vote.
Tusk, likely like most EU bigshots, is a top down, big scheme/movement guy. Above the fray of day to day life. No EU marketing, listening, or sales strategy for the advantages and great future of the organization.
And when the city the EU resides in is found to be a nest of Middle East commuting Jihadist terrorists living literally just down the street from EU offices, it takes a lot of spin to deny the perception that the EU is a bunch of overpaid bureaucrats with no connection, awareness, or concern with 'the real world'.
Tusk, likely like most EU bigshots, is a top down, big scheme/movement guy. Above the fray of day to day life. No EU marketing, listening, or sales strategy for the advantages and great future of the organization.
And when the city the EU resides in is found to be a nest of Middle East commuting Jihadist terrorists living literally just down the street from EU offices, it takes a lot of spin to deny the perception that the EU is a bunch of overpaid bureaucrats with no connection, awareness, or concern with 'the real world'.
4
Absurd. Very foolish. Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland will secede to rejoin the EU, and Little England will be left as the sad, insular (metaphorically and literally) rump of the former empire. The future is a strong, united, liberal, open Europe as a bastion of civilization against the forces of darkness. Yes, fix immigration problems, but do it at the EU's eastern and southern borders, don't retreat behind the Channel. But if England and Wales want to go it alone, good luck with that.
2
Dear Publius,
England and Wales would fiscally benefit from a departure of Northern Ireland and to some extent even Scotland. For Scotland and Northern Ireland to leave and then join the EU would be quitting one club where you had some influence to join another where your influence will be considerably diluted and the new club will cost a lot more.
England and Wales would fiscally benefit from a departure of Northern Ireland and to some extent even Scotland. For Scotland and Northern Ireland to leave and then join the EU would be quitting one club where you had some influence to join another where your influence will be considerably diluted and the new club will cost a lot more.
Just an observation here: In looking at the maps of the voting returns, I noticed that, for the most part, the majority of voters who favored exit live in England (rather than Scotland and Northern Ireland) and they do not live in urban centers (ie., London, Manchester, Liverpool, etc.). What the means is wide open for discussion; I cannot draw any inferential conclusions from this.
Does the Brexit vote presage a Trump victory? Forget for a moment about the issues, but focus on the enthusiasm. The Remainders tended to be lukewarm about staying in, and the only focus they had was a gloom and doom scenario reminding one of the chicken little story. In all probability, the Exiters had a much stronger motivation for leaving because they felt that the pattern of economic and social life under the EU regime - and under globalization more generally was a real threat to their well-being in the long run.
Trump supporters have greater motivation than do Clinton supporters. The real question facing the American electorate is whether the dissatisfaction indicated by the support of anti-establishment candidates in the primary season will carry over to the fall election. If so, Clinton is in deep trouble as her supporters are against trump as a person ,but not strongly in favor of the policies, if any, that she has proposed. Her implicit message is trust me to stay the course. Trump supporters feel strongly about the issues he has raised and the proposals he has for addressing them. Trump, rather than the Republican Party, is the force for change. Clinton, rather than Democratic Party supporters in general, is the status quo candidate.
Trump supporters have greater motivation than do Clinton supporters. The real question facing the American electorate is whether the dissatisfaction indicated by the support of anti-establishment candidates in the primary season will carry over to the fall election. If so, Clinton is in deep trouble as her supporters are against trump as a person ,but not strongly in favor of the policies, if any, that she has proposed. Her implicit message is trust me to stay the course. Trump supporters feel strongly about the issues he has raised and the proposals he has for addressing them. Trump, rather than the Republican Party, is the force for change. Clinton, rather than Democratic Party supporters in general, is the status quo candidate.
3
As Art Spander said: "The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid."
And lets not ignore what Churchill said: “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”
They knew what they were talking about at the time. Unfortunately the standards have fallen off a cliff since then - so you can easily imagine these results.
A dark day for UK. And of course, for EU. I am still hopeful the MPs would band together and call a special election before the next scheduled one in 2020. And if they manage to get re-elected on the basis of a campaign based on "staying" then they can use that result to overturn the referendum.
I hope they do.
And lets not ignore what Churchill said: “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”
They knew what they were talking about at the time. Unfortunately the standards have fallen off a cliff since then - so you can easily imagine these results.
A dark day for UK. And of course, for EU. I am still hopeful the MPs would band together and call a special election before the next scheduled one in 2020. And if they manage to get re-elected on the basis of a campaign based on "staying" then they can use that result to overturn the referendum.
I hope they do.
3
If you look at the demographics of the vote you see that those who voted leave were proportionately older, poorer, and less well educated than those who voted remain. The best single indicators of whether or not you voted to remain were if you had a university degree and if you were Scottish. A successful second independence referendum in Scotland is very likely.
The other big differentiator was age. It is estimated 75% of those under 30 voted remain. This was a vote of the old against the young. The Web this morning is full of young Britons railing against their elders for denying them the opportunities to travel and work abroad they themselves had. (Many see it as the wretched Baby Boomers' last stab at the generations following them.)
Notably, and perhaps predictably given the immigration scare tactics used by the leavers, the constituencies that voted to leave have relatively low immigration levels. The dozen constituencies with the highest immigration levels (mostly in London) voted Remain.
In summary, this was a victory for ignorance, for selfishness, for short sightedness. And, speaking as a non-Brit, England should not expect the rest of Europe to be understanding. They've made it clear we are not their kind of people.
The other big differentiator was age. It is estimated 75% of those under 30 voted remain. This was a vote of the old against the young. The Web this morning is full of young Britons railing against their elders for denying them the opportunities to travel and work abroad they themselves had. (Many see it as the wretched Baby Boomers' last stab at the generations following them.)
Notably, and perhaps predictably given the immigration scare tactics used by the leavers, the constituencies that voted to leave have relatively low immigration levels. The dozen constituencies with the highest immigration levels (mostly in London) voted Remain.
In summary, this was a victory for ignorance, for selfishness, for short sightedness. And, speaking as a non-Brit, England should not expect the rest of Europe to be understanding. They've made it clear we are not their kind of people.
5
Whatever the rationale for Britain exiting the EU, it is not the end of western civilization - the pound is still one world's global currencies, you can still take a train from London to Paris etc. The vote is the British voters statement about globalization vs. national identity and, when you strip out the racism and all the other noise, it is an important question to grapple with here and around the world.
Most people immigrate, legally and illegally, to the United States because it offers the potential of a better life, not just economically but through our institutionalized freedoms. Demagogic politicians come and go but the institutions give us stability, opportunity, freedom to practice different beliefs. To trade that for some sort of global China where every citizen is spied on, where wealth continues to concentrated in a global one percent, citizens of the world with no nationality make the rules that benefit them, this is not for me.
I suspect this is behind the Brexit vote and it will reverberate in the US in November.
Most people immigrate, legally and illegally, to the United States because it offers the potential of a better life, not just economically but through our institutionalized freedoms. Demagogic politicians come and go but the institutions give us stability, opportunity, freedom to practice different beliefs. To trade that for some sort of global China where every citizen is spied on, where wealth continues to concentrated in a global one percent, citizens of the world with no nationality make the rules that benefit them, this is not for me.
I suspect this is behind the Brexit vote and it will reverberate in the US in November.
5
The success of the Brexit campaign underlines the unfortunate anger of the uneducated against the wrong target. The cause of much of the justifiable unhappiness of the working class is corporate greed, and the undermining of any regulations against exploitive profits by the conservatives in both the US and the UK.
The wealthy 2% seem to control the information about their activities--like being major employers of undocumented illegals, paying obscenely low wages, about sending their profits offshore to avoid paying their share of taxes, and about paying off politicians to vote to protect their nefarious wheeling and dealing.
Somehow, progressives need to get the truth out, directly targeting the people who don't read the NYTimes.
The wealthy 2% seem to control the information about their activities--like being major employers of undocumented illegals, paying obscenely low wages, about sending their profits offshore to avoid paying their share of taxes, and about paying off politicians to vote to protect their nefarious wheeling and dealing.
Somehow, progressives need to get the truth out, directly targeting the people who don't read the NYTimes.
10
The EU is a horribly flawed institution which even people who opposed Brexit acknowledged. It has let in countries with standards of living a fraction of that of Britain and giving their resident carte blanche to move to the UK. The disaster in Greece speaks for itself. You don't have to be a racist to see problems in that. The British have never really seen themselves as a part of Europe partly do to geography and partly their unique connection other English speaking countries like the US and Canada. I applaud the majority of them for rejecting the naysayers and taking this bold move. They will be fine going forward. The bigger question is whether will this lead to structural reforms in the EU or just be the start of its slow demise as other countries decide to go it alone.
6
Immigration is the hot button issue on both sides of the Atlantic and the European Union's utter failure in dealing with this problem (other than paying massive bribes to Turkey) is a large part of the success of Brexit. The wealthy and political elite can hide behind their gated communities and apartment door men but the average person finds their schools overcrowded, their taxes rising and social services swamped by large numbers of immigrants who refuse to assimilate. In some ways Germany's Merkel is just as responsible for what happened in Britain as anything else. The same issue may just be the undoing of the political elite on this side of the Atlantic too.
9
The working class has made its decision and will suffer greatly… Gone are the workers, proud in their working class communities and their organized unions. Today’s fast-food, zero-hour workers are a pale shadow. That shadow has raged an angry, desperate cry but the boot will come down harder.
Globalization means something that transcends the nation state and over which “governments" have limited, if any, control.
The impetus is towards global elites and global markets that have no truck with restraints from governments. It is a network of super-cities, London being one, if not the most important.
The irony of London voting to remain while being the major beneficiary of leaving is remarkable. It will allow the unproductive anchors of Scotland and Ireland to separate. Its right-wing government will do everything it can to spend as little as it can on the English “rump”. Those in the global city will seek to amass more wealth and pay no taxes.
The destruction of global warming - really environmental collapse - will accelerate just as the institutions that might have been able to organize a response are marginalized and destroyed.
This is not going to end well. And, of course, whenever systems collapse, what’s left is not a smaller, less pressured system, it’s a wasteland.
Globalization means something that transcends the nation state and over which “governments" have limited, if any, control.
The impetus is towards global elites and global markets that have no truck with restraints from governments. It is a network of super-cities, London being one, if not the most important.
The irony of London voting to remain while being the major beneficiary of leaving is remarkable. It will allow the unproductive anchors of Scotland and Ireland to separate. Its right-wing government will do everything it can to spend as little as it can on the English “rump”. Those in the global city will seek to amass more wealth and pay no taxes.
The destruction of global warming - really environmental collapse - will accelerate just as the institutions that might have been able to organize a response are marginalized and destroyed.
This is not going to end well. And, of course, whenever systems collapse, what’s left is not a smaller, less pressured system, it’s a wasteland.
3
The liberal wailing and moaning and grand prognostications of doom for the UK have been delicious. The U.K. is the world's fifth largest economy - I don't think it's going to become Greece anytime soon. Further, the U.K. was apparently the second largest economy in the EU--shouldn't liberals perhaps turn their gaze and disdain to that institution which managed to lose that hugely important member? The constant diktats and threats from EU grandees seemed to have backfired tremendously, but I don't see liberals bashing the EU this morning. No, much easier to fall back on the same old liberal playbook: everyone who disagrees with liberals and the further erosion of sovereignty and borders and culture is a dumb, uneducated racist. It literally is not possible to be more condescending and wrong. It has also been quite amusing watching the liberal freak out over this vote in conjunction with the dire warnings from the global economic elite: seeing our own socialists in staunch agreement with Jamie Dimon has been priceless and revealing of the utter incoherence of the modern left's beliefs.
8
Pookie, at least 20% of Great Britain's economy comes directly from its financial markets and their integration with Europe. But your theory is, having left the EU in a welter of screaming accusations, the EU will then cheerfully bargain trade and the like to favor Great Britian.
Why does this strike me as unbloodylikely.
And after Northern Ireland and Scotland do exactly what you're cheerleading for, we'll see just how big an economy is left.
Oh, by the way, us commies don't call all nationalism racist. Just the racist ones.
Why does this strike me as unbloodylikely.
And after Northern Ireland and Scotland do exactly what you're cheerleading for, we'll see just how big an economy is left.
Oh, by the way, us commies don't call all nationalism racist. Just the racist ones.
1
@Robert,
Having worked in international commercial all my life, like my father before me, all trade is done based on what is commercially advantageous to both parties. Considering the banking system of England has been one of the most powerful forces in the world, and by BTW long before their entry into the EU, businessmen from all over the world will continue to come to England as a reliable source of capital.
Europeans are just like businessmen everywhere and certainly they are not going to love coming to England fro money, if it suits their purposes you can be sure they will. But if the Europeans boycott England there is still a gigantic world out there looking safe and reliable banking.
Having worked in international commercial all my life, like my father before me, all trade is done based on what is commercially advantageous to both parties. Considering the banking system of England has been one of the most powerful forces in the world, and by BTW long before their entry into the EU, businessmen from all over the world will continue to come to England as a reliable source of capital.
Europeans are just like businessmen everywhere and certainly they are not going to love coming to England fro money, if it suits their purposes you can be sure they will. But if the Europeans boycott England there is still a gigantic world out there looking safe and reliable banking.
1
The author invokes xenophobia again as the driving force between Brexit. This shows an arrogant misunderstanding of the issues. Britain hosts one of the World's most cosmopolitan societies. Many who voted for Brexit are immigrants themselves. Britain's population growth was stable and manageable from the mid sixties to the mid nineties, however the quadrupling of population growth since 1999 with no effective mechanism to slow the influx has rapidly overwhelmed housing iinfrastructure and services, resulting in a dramatic increase in housing costs, while the economy stagnated, leading to a serious degradation of living standards for its working class citizens. This has nothing to do with xenophobia, and everything to do with immigration control. They are entirely different things.
20
Beyind noting that the climb in housing prices in London has precisely zero to do with waves of immigrants--waves of financial speculation, actually--I enjoy the way that this "cosmopolitanism," was precisely what Farange, Johnson, and the rest of that pack of liars and thieves objected to.
While the EU has many problems, not least of them is building an economy without a polity. The experience of Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal has shown the real weakness in the system.
Anyone believing that this is goodness and light for the UK will have a rude awakening. What will most likely happen is that the prices for goods and services that average Brits pay will go up. The Brit 1% will get much richer by monopolizing corners of the economy now open to competition and adding protectionist measures. Moreover, Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland will flee the UK. All this for some notion of 'nationalism' that will ruin the remaining rump state of England/Wales. This vote is a short-sighted, isolating, and fearful reaction to some powerful racist and xenophobic emotions. It will be the object lesson for 'cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.'
Finally, anything that happens that is cheered by both Putin and Trump cannot be good. Putin wants to split the EU and NATO for his own benefit. Trump is just a tool.
Anyone believing that this is goodness and light for the UK will have a rude awakening. What will most likely happen is that the prices for goods and services that average Brits pay will go up. The Brit 1% will get much richer by monopolizing corners of the economy now open to competition and adding protectionist measures. Moreover, Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland will flee the UK. All this for some notion of 'nationalism' that will ruin the remaining rump state of England/Wales. This vote is a short-sighted, isolating, and fearful reaction to some powerful racist and xenophobic emotions. It will be the object lesson for 'cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.'
Finally, anything that happens that is cheered by both Putin and Trump cannot be good. Putin wants to split the EU and NATO for his own benefit. Trump is just a tool.
4
The NYT and the regressive left constantly denigrate any group with a preference for Western civilization, its legal system, and its values. The idea that all ideologies, cultures and legal system are somehow "equal" is the primary idiotic notion of multiculturalism. Brexit is an almost inevitable reaction to Euro-multiculturalism. I blame the left and its multicultural agenda for the anti-EU reaction in England. If the European left were more sensible in requiring its recent immigrants to become Westernized there wouldn't be all this nativist demagoguery.
The only place where multiculturalism makes any sense is in ethnic restaurants. The rest of immigrant culture should be chucked overboard on the way here. If the regressive left doesn't wise up and get real about Americans' preference for our Western culture we could wind up with our own "Brexit" in the form of the election of Donald Trump.
The only place where multiculturalism makes any sense is in ethnic restaurants. The rest of immigrant culture should be chucked overboard on the way here. If the regressive left doesn't wise up and get real about Americans' preference for our Western culture we could wind up with our own "Brexit" in the form of the election of Donald Trump.
13
I allus enjoy it when guys who know precisely zip about Western civ, its legal system (there are several) and its values start pontificating about Western civ, its legal system, and its values.
Just for openers, "England," is and has always been a patchwork of ethnicites, traditions, languages and so on.
Gee whillikers, it's like you never even saw a movie about Robin Hood. Angles and Saxons? Any or that ringing a bell? Any guess where Saxons were even feom, and which side won? Hey, here's a question, since you're so big on Britain's isolation from Europe: where'd Richard le Coeur-Leon get hisself kilt, and why was he there?
Just for openers, "England," is and has always been a patchwork of ethnicites, traditions, languages and so on.
Gee whillikers, it's like you never even saw a movie about Robin Hood. Angles and Saxons? Any or that ringing a bell? Any guess where Saxons were even feom, and which side won? Hey, here's a question, since you're so big on Britain's isolation from Europe: where'd Richard le Coeur-Leon get hisself kilt, and why was he there?
America is am immigrant culture, de facto-- unless you are Native American or African American descending from slaves unwittingly brought here. It is amazing how so many European immigrants forget that on a daily basis!!
This is terrifying and, hopefully for the U.S., sobering proof of the power of the modern, non-traditional media to influence events. Voters in Britain -- particularly older, less racially tolerant, rural, angry, and fearful voters -- were so convinced that their country was going to hell in a hand basket that they voted for the unknown, against the warnings of experts, on the theory that it couldn't make things that much worse.
If that sounds familiar, then you see the connection to the Trump campaign. Never has someone who knew so little, who was so duplicitous, who lied so readily and confidently, been in a position to do so much damage. And apparently, millions of voters in this country are ok with that because they think things here are in a similar state. The right wing media has been spreading misinformation about the state of the economy, the war against ISIS, the threat of refugees, the problems caused by illegal immigration, that they are on the verge of convincing the American people to make the same mistake that Great Britain has just made.
Wake up America! Don't get conned in the same way that Great Britain has been conned. Don't let anger, hate, and fear drive your decision.
If that sounds familiar, then you see the connection to the Trump campaign. Never has someone who knew so little, who was so duplicitous, who lied so readily and confidently, been in a position to do so much damage. And apparently, millions of voters in this country are ok with that because they think things here are in a similar state. The right wing media has been spreading misinformation about the state of the economy, the war against ISIS, the threat of refugees, the problems caused by illegal immigration, that they are on the verge of convincing the American people to make the same mistake that Great Britain has just made.
Wake up America! Don't get conned in the same way that Great Britain has been conned. Don't let anger, hate, and fear drive your decision.
21
If the European Union fails it will not be because of the UK. It will fail because it is not a true United States of Europe. The members still to this day do not see themselves as states but countries with their own national identities. The model Europe has to work towards achieving is the United States of America. in which all states are equal members united under the umbrella of a federal system of government supported by a neutral currency. How neutral is the Euro? Why does the European Central Bank have its headquarters in Frankfurt, Germany and not in Brussels, the de facto capital of the EU? Why is it that whenever there is a crisis with the Euro Angela Merkel is front and center like she was today in response to Prime Minister Cameron's resignation announcement. The EU cannot be seen as a new German Reich. Neither can it be seen as another French Empire. The Euro instead of tearing down borders seems to have had the opposite effect. Money and business has made those who were surprised by the Brexit oblivious to the obvious. By retaining the pound sterling with its portrait of the Queen, Britain never really was a member of the EU in the first place.
5
No, the model to work towards is NOT the United States of America.
The U.K. public were very wary of the United States of Europe, and rightly so.
The EU was initially founded as a simple coal and steel association to facilitate the rebuilding of Europe after WW2. It then morphed into a Common Market for goods and services, which was the basis for the UK to join.
It's precisely the movement towards a pan-European government that most people in the UK are against.
If the EU remained a simple common market, the U.K. would have voted to remain.
The U.K. public were very wary of the United States of Europe, and rightly so.
The EU was initially founded as a simple coal and steel association to facilitate the rebuilding of Europe after WW2. It then morphed into a Common Market for goods and services, which was the basis for the UK to join.
It's precisely the movement towards a pan-European government that most people in the UK are against.
If the EU remained a simple common market, the U.K. would have voted to remain.
2
Sir, when I wrote my comment I had in mind a speech Sir Winston S. Churchill made in Zurich in 1946:
"The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by their contribution to the common cause."
Here is the link to the text of the entire speech:
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html
Unless this spirit prevails, I fail to see how the EU can succeed. But, Churchill did not intend for Great Britain to be part of it. He ended this same speech with these words:
"Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia - for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine."
"The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by their contribution to the common cause."
Here is the link to the text of the entire speech:
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html
Unless this spirit prevails, I fail to see how the EU can succeed. But, Churchill did not intend for Great Britain to be part of it. He ended this same speech with these words:
"Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia - for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine."
People around the world have lost a sense of empowerment at the hands of the Globalists, the Elites, and the central power brokers.
They want responsive governments again - not massive bureaucratic monoliths that dictate more and more aspects of people's lives against their will.
Small, localized governments have always been more responsive to their constituents than distant, insular bureaucracies. And that is precisely what is driving this phenomenon. It is yet another step in the ongoing Balkanization of the world's powers.
And it will not stop there. Scotland, rightfully, will seek its own path - perhaps to join a crumbling EU, perhaps not. But that will be their choice, as it should be.
The future, indeed, will bring new uncertainties, but the direction of each smaller government that splinters from former unions will have one attribute in common - they will be driven by the collective voice of their constituents, and not by the fanciful whims of out-of-touch Elitists.
JMHOAU
They want responsive governments again - not massive bureaucratic monoliths that dictate more and more aspects of people's lives against their will.
Small, localized governments have always been more responsive to their constituents than distant, insular bureaucracies. And that is precisely what is driving this phenomenon. It is yet another step in the ongoing Balkanization of the world's powers.
And it will not stop there. Scotland, rightfully, will seek its own path - perhaps to join a crumbling EU, perhaps not. But that will be their choice, as it should be.
The future, indeed, will bring new uncertainties, but the direction of each smaller government that splinters from former unions will have one attribute in common - they will be driven by the collective voice of their constituents, and not by the fanciful whims of out-of-touch Elitists.
JMHOAU
7
If Scotland leaves, it will be to stay in the EU. And if I have to choose between "elites," and braying racists who can't tell the truth to save their lives, gimme the elite every single day.
2
Population growth dilutes everyone's power.
There are reports in the press that some "Leave" voters intended their votes as a protest, and not as true votes to leave the EU. They assumed their votes wouldn't make a difference and were stunned that the "Leave" vote won. It is a cautionary tale for like-minded Americans who have thus far supported Trump as an "in your face" protest against the establishment and the current state of affairs. As they say, be careful what you wish for.
21
Clearly, much like America though, the status quo is not acceptable either.
David Cameron in his effort to smack down his Euro skeptic opponents in the Conservative Party has created a political economic crisis. This referendum should have never been offered to the public. The political ramifications were too great. But Cameron obviously thought this would be an easy win and he could continue on with a long run as prime minister.
5
@ C harris. Why shouldn't the British vote to decide what their future should look like. Don't you believe in Democracy? What next? Only leave in to the Lords to vote in Britain?
So the British people don't have the right to decide whether they should stay in the EU, how is that democracy. What if we had the chance to vote on NAFTA which has gutted our factories and the middle class??
1
So the poor stupid masses should not have had a chance to vote on something important?
Did you ever think that could be why there is so little trust in our governments?
Did you ever think that could be why there is so little trust in our governments?
This might be a good thing for the world in the long run. The article says, "Europe will have to “reorganize itself in a system of different degrees of association,” said Karl Kaiser, a Harvard professor and former director of the German Council on Foreign Relations." The EU, in union with the IMF, World Bank and Wall Street, have too much power to tell small players how they can run their affairs. The HIStory of Europe is one of constant war and changing borders so cooperation between countries is imperative to reduce friction and promote trade and tourism. It is the absolutist, hard-core positions of Germany and monetary leaders that causes the problem. Perhaps now they will stop considering a one-world government run by them and Wall Street and focus on cooperation among nations instead of domination and complete control. Power With - not power over. That would bode well for the world
37
Unfortunately the domination has already been rolled out, with several senior EU heads of state intimating that the UK must be made to suffer so that contagion can be avoided.
The smart thing to do would be to listen to people's (well-founded) concerns, not only in Britain, but in Germany, the Netherlands, and France.
The common tactic is to dismiss eurosceptics as far right nationalist xenophobes, which may be so in a minority of cases, but certainly not when held by 52% of people from the voting UK.
The smart thing to do would be to listen to people's (well-founded) concerns, not only in Britain, but in Germany, the Netherlands, and France.
The common tactic is to dismiss eurosceptics as far right nationalist xenophobes, which may be so in a minority of cases, but certainly not when held by 52% of people from the voting UK.
Perhaps people value their freedom more than anything, something our political dictators may want to consider.
58
Nihilism is an easy solution where freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Going insular never fixed anything . leave voters may be shocked when they are even in worse shape than before. Because the ramifications of leaving weren't fully spelled out, voters were motivated by pure emotion . Now that they had their say, other Euro nations will have theirs. And the result may not be pretty.
And unfortunately a decision like this is irrevocable. Perfect example of being careful what you pray for. Cost of living is sure to be higher, and less trade will impact jobs. Who will tell them what they did and why when that "who" appealed to their fears and emotions in the first place?
And unfortunately a decision like this is irrevocable. Perfect example of being careful what you pray for. Cost of living is sure to be higher, and less trade will impact jobs. Who will tell them what they did and why when that "who" appealed to their fears and emotions in the first place?
39
Well said, another good reason to vote Trump, thank you.
A triumph of ignorance!
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/what-happe...
Headline: "What happens if we leave the EU? Google searches surge as people realise they don't know what Brexit actually means
'What does it mean to leave the EU?' is the most searched for question on the European Union since the results were announced."
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/what-happe...
Headline: "What happens if we leave the EU? Google searches surge as people realise they don't know what Brexit actually means
'What does it mean to leave the EU?' is the most searched for question on the European Union since the results were announced."
35
The totally ignorant comments on here are unbelievable.
We do know what Brexit is - do you? We are not xenophobic, racist or anything else.
If the EU was that good (and we should know we have been in it for 40 plus years) then why are we leaving?
I give both the EU and Euro max 2 years. It is highly likely that the either one will crumble this year.
The EU is akin to the old USSR, with a centrally planned economy and the Politburo of elites living a life of privilege and excess.
52% of the UK voted out - what percentage of our MPs voted out? Both the UK's politicians and the EU's politicians are completely and utterly out of touch with their own people. This is what happens when the people that should be listening fail to do so over the course of a number of years.
We do know what Brexit is - do you? We are not xenophobic, racist or anything else.
If the EU was that good (and we should know we have been in it for 40 plus years) then why are we leaving?
I give both the EU and Euro max 2 years. It is highly likely that the either one will crumble this year.
The EU is akin to the old USSR, with a centrally planned economy and the Politburo of elites living a life of privilege and excess.
52% of the UK voted out - what percentage of our MPs voted out? Both the UK's politicians and the EU's politicians are completely and utterly out of touch with their own people. This is what happens when the people that should be listening fail to do so over the course of a number of years.
5
The irony of it is that shows that democracy is obsolete. The voters don't know what they're doing. The question going forward is what is the best alternative form of government?
I cannot agree entirely. i discussed this with many, many people and their reasons for voting out were immigration, over and over and over again. One blamed the fact he could not afford a deposit for a house on immigrants buying the houses. And he wasn't alone. The politics of the EU barely ever got mentioned. Sure, some of what you say can be interpreted that way, but if you think the out vote was of such a high level of intelligence as you make out, you're deeply, sadly, mistaken. This was one of the most lied about, untruthful campaigns of any type I've ever heard or seen. It was, frankly gutter worthy at best. people voted with base instinct. They voted based on their education level and economic level, and aged 65+. All I have heard all day from the younger members of society is indeed phrases such as "Its like the beginning of the end", "what are WE supposed to do?" and there is a massive generational divide. The old have told the young to expect no quarter and no future.
1
First great victory of the forces against globalization - that benefits the elites and damages those in professions exposed to competition from low wage countries.
On the bright side: The pound crashed to the lowest level since 1985, hence, as LeFigaro observes, now is the time to go shopping in London.
On the bright side: The pound crashed to the lowest level since 1985, hence, as LeFigaro observes, now is the time to go shopping in London.
43
Yes, legitimate grievances, but wrong proxy platform. A populist fix of the kind that Trump is pushing. Buyer's regret coming up.
25
And how does a devalued pound help the English?
Don't you see that the fact that the Pound dropped instead of soaring proves the England was wrong? GB is a net importer. Their goods just got more expensive and their buying power just got weaker.
The title appropriately captures the state of the mind of the people. Career politicians are loosing credibility and polls are no longer to be taken more than a grain of salt. People are making informed decisions to send a message to the powerful political establishment that they have no more patience for dishonesty and lack of accountability. The buck was not stopping with the top leadership it was being passed around. Not anymore. People power is back in all the major democracies India, USA and UK covering half the world.
7
While no doubt many would like to read the Brexit tea leaves for insight into our own election, let us remember that there is a huge distinction between voting for what is essentially an abstract idea (remain or leave) and an actual person (Trump). I like the idea of a republican presidential candidate who bucks the republican establishment and represents a populist position - but Trump could never earn my vote.
4
All the commentary, all the doom and gloom, seems way overblown. In the long run this is not a big deal, especially since GB never adopted the Euro. The only certain result is that some international companies will move some jobs out of England - hardly an international crisis. Tough time for media pundits.
13
Yeah, right – no biggie!
The entire trade position of the UK has be disentangled and rebuilt which could take 10 years. No probs.
The entire trade position of the UK has be disentangled and rebuilt which could take 10 years. No probs.
2
Seriously?
Northern Ireland and Scotland contribute mightily to the UK's economy. N. Ireland as the technlogy center and Scotland with its oil reserves. Both voted overwhelmingly to stay. If they now hold their own referendums and choose to leave the UK to stay in the EU -- there is NO Great Britain. Only England and Wales.
Why will London remain as the financial center of Europe when England is no longer part of the EU? Why not Berlin or Paris? Londoners understood this -- which is why they voted to stay!
This was an emotional decision that will, in fact, have drastic repercussions.
Northern Ireland and Scotland contribute mightily to the UK's economy. N. Ireland as the technlogy center and Scotland with its oil reserves. Both voted overwhelmingly to stay. If they now hold their own referendums and choose to leave the UK to stay in the EU -- there is NO Great Britain. Only England and Wales.
Why will London remain as the financial center of Europe when England is no longer part of the EU? Why not Berlin or Paris? Londoners understood this -- which is why they voted to stay!
This was an emotional decision that will, in fact, have drastic repercussions.
2
From what has been seen so far, the Brexit vote has in no way created the turmoil especially to the markets and economy that the American financiers caused in the meltdown of 2008 and its long term effects, especially in America.
The nationalistic message of the Leave electorate is indeed eerily similar to our very own "America Ueber Alles" Trump message and his followers, and frightens this naturalized citizen from Europe as much as the rise of arch-right parties in France, Germany.
After Scotland had its own referendum last year of gaining independence from the United Kingdom, one that failed at that time, the First Minister of Scotland already announced that they will rather be independent from the UK and remain in the EU and have another one soon.
At about the same time Northern Ireland declared that they are striving for independence for the very same reason as Scotland.
In both Scotland and N. Ireland the Stay vote beat the Leave vote overwhelmingly.
Once Scotland and N. Ireland leave, the United Kingdom will exist not more. What a terrible sad day of their long, long history.
After Scotland had its own referendum last year of gaining independence from the United Kingdom, one that failed at that time, the First Minister of Scotland already announced that they will rather be independent from the UK and remain in the EU and have another one soon.
At about the same time Northern Ireland declared that they are striving for independence for the very same reason as Scotland.
In both Scotland and N. Ireland the Stay vote beat the Leave vote overwhelmingly.
Once Scotland and N. Ireland leave, the United Kingdom will exist not more. What a terrible sad day of their long, long history.
7
Britons never jumped in with both feet; their currency has been the pound and not the euro. Culturally, they have always been different from Continental Europe. If both parties are smart, they will preserve most trade agreements, which should be mutually beneficial.
20
Sorry to inform but any trade agreements the UK has with the EU are contingent on being IN - not - OUT of the club. The UK will have to start again.
2
The only "cultural" difference overall between the Brits and other countries on the continent is that they are the only English speaking country in Europe.
Within countries themselves, there are many more cultural difference by geography, just like in the good old U.S. of A.
Within countries themselves, there are many more cultural difference by geography, just like in the good old U.S. of A.
Why would Germany and France make it easy for England by rubber stamping trade agreements? They will make it as difficult as possible to discourage other exits.
Scotland and Northern Ireland voted overhwhelmingly to stay in the EU. One can only assume that they will now vote to EXIT the UK.
England has cut off its nose to spite its face!
Scotland and Northern Ireland voted overhwhelmingly to stay in the EU. One can only assume that they will now vote to EXIT the UK.
England has cut off its nose to spite its face!
1
The way the vote was divided speaks volumes - the young vs the old, the more educated vs the less so, non-white vs white. It says that there is genuine anger against corporations and elites and those who are in charge of the affairs of millions of voters, but the way that anger is being directed and guided is misguided, not just in the UK and the US with Trump, but elsewhere in the world as well. Thus the irony of supporting a self-proclaimed billionaire to get back at corporations for your lack of prosperity, or of turning against the sane advice of many in the UK just because of who they are - the chair of the Bank of England, the Prime Minister, even the Archbishop of Canterbury. Unfortunately, as of now, this unfocused anger seems self-destructive and mis-directed - there are real problems, but I doubt that power or resources will devolve to those who are hurting the most.
16
Misguided? Anger is directed at leadership that believes they should be able to make decisions for the rest of us, and have shut their ears to the voices of a great portion of the population of a democratic country. I don't support Trump, but I recognize why people could feel they are forced to support Trump, because the only other choice, is to allow a point of view that they disagree with to run roughshod over them.
2
It's just as crazy as the Germans and Austrians and others in 1930's Europe thinking that their problems would be eradicated when all of the Jews of Europe were eradicated -- but that is how crazy, ignorant, and stupid look.
1
I see Trump is in Scotland once again acting the braggadocio claiming to take credit for the Brexit referendum vote to Leave. He incredulously is attempting to connect the Leave vote with his campaign in the States.
The United States does not belong to a similar North American Union. The US was, is, will be a sovereign nation, yet Trump would have his gullible Trumpists equate the two as being similar. What poppycock.
This bold-faced falsehood is so typical of Trump. There he stands on Scottish soil, no sense of irony whatsoever in his pronouncement, heralding the Brexit vote, totally clueless to the fact that Scotland overwhelmingly voted to Remain. So ignorant, so Trump.
Watch now as Trumpists follow their Fearless Leader blindly by trying to connect Brexit with Trump and all their other utter rubbish about taking their country back. Of course it's a ridiculous comparison, but so is Trump's candidacy. It is stupid and dangerous, like the ideas embodied in Trump himself.
DD
Manhattan
The United States does not belong to a similar North American Union. The US was, is, will be a sovereign nation, yet Trump would have his gullible Trumpists equate the two as being similar. What poppycock.
This bold-faced falsehood is so typical of Trump. There he stands on Scottish soil, no sense of irony whatsoever in his pronouncement, heralding the Brexit vote, totally clueless to the fact that Scotland overwhelmingly voted to Remain. So ignorant, so Trump.
Watch now as Trumpists follow their Fearless Leader blindly by trying to connect Brexit with Trump and all their other utter rubbish about taking their country back. Of course it's a ridiculous comparison, but so is Trump's candidacy. It is stupid and dangerous, like the ideas embodied in Trump himself.
DD
Manhattan
49
The Scots already looked through Il Trumpolini's rubbish from the very beginning, mainly after he boasted in his first negotiations with them about building a new course in Aberdeen that on his mother's side he is one of them, a Scotch.
If Trump were a Scotch, the Scots would all go on the wagon.
If Trump were a Scotch, the Scots would all go on the wagon.
1
And he classlessly wore his ridiculous Make America Great Again baseball cap while crowing about Brexit and standing next to a Scottish piper. The thought of this buffoon ever being president is just gut turning.
1
The editorial staff of the NYT may not be 1%ers but they live very comfortable lives. Firstly, they are employed! The have disposable incomes and even probably can afford to take a vacation, have retirement funds and host of benefits. Such people simply scratch their heads and wonder why people are “angry”. To this end they cannot get or understand why Trump and Sanders found an eager audience..
Secondly, news papers have been less and less investigative journalism. As a result you have articles like the one written above-full of opinion and conjecture instead of simply reporting what is happening and analysing what is going on. This article, and many others before it, is a stunning display of cluelessness of what is going on on main street. If you are well fed and have no or little anxiety about the economy and life in general then Trump and Sanders are a complete mystery. If top journalist were to actually put his family on a pay of working 3 minimum wage jobs to cater for his/her family then you might make more sense of what is going.
Thirdly and finally, the above two explain why news media around the world is so keen on the status quo this is because the know it very well. It is comfort zone the are reluctant to leave behind unless forcefully yanked out by voters as the English have done. They gave a stiff upper lip to all the fear mongering and scare tactics. Will the American be just as brave in November? I doubt it.
Secondly, news papers have been less and less investigative journalism. As a result you have articles like the one written above-full of opinion and conjecture instead of simply reporting what is happening and analysing what is going on. This article, and many others before it, is a stunning display of cluelessness of what is going on on main street. If you are well fed and have no or little anxiety about the economy and life in general then Trump and Sanders are a complete mystery. If top journalist were to actually put his family on a pay of working 3 minimum wage jobs to cater for his/her family then you might make more sense of what is going.
Thirdly and finally, the above two explain why news media around the world is so keen on the status quo this is because the know it very well. It is comfort zone the are reluctant to leave behind unless forcefully yanked out by voters as the English have done. They gave a stiff upper lip to all the fear mongering and scare tactics. Will the American be just as brave in November? I doubt it.
76
"As a result you have articles like the one written above-full of opinion and conjecture instead of simply reporting"
This is an Op-Ed piece by the Editorial Board, appearing in the section of the paper called "The Opinion Pages." This is where opinions are generally found. Get it? There are plenty of articles--and plenty of reporting--on this vote on the front page.
This is an Op-Ed piece by the Editorial Board, appearing in the section of the paper called "The Opinion Pages." This is where opinions are generally found. Get it? There are plenty of articles--and plenty of reporting--on this vote on the front page.
2
In case you have not noticed, this is an Editorial and reflects the opinion of the Editorial Board of the NYT. Ergo, it has absolutely nothing in common with "investigative journalism".
2
It's called an Editorial for a reason, TOL. It is intended to be full of opinion.
2
So, some here believe that Trump is the American representative of the Bexit. Really? A man who practices inequality in hiring for his Trumpdoms, using foreign employees whom he can pay less than American workers, maintaining the supposed Republican strangling of the poor and middle class by refusing to invest in jobs. The Democrats in congress represent what the middle class wants. Equality, investing in American workers, etc. We shall see come November, how smart the American people are.
22
I respect the British people's choice and their effort to do what they think is best for their country. And I see some of the same issues which are a concern in this country. Trump as a representative? No. But the Democrats represent the middle class? That sounds bizarre that anyone could believe that. The policies by the Democrats are what have gotten us into these problems as far as I can see. And half the people in this country do not support those policies, so what do you think is going to happen between these two groups of people in this country? And as far as November goes…there is no smart choice. Either choice is a disaster for this country.
1
Phyliss, Just who are these enlightened Democrats in Congress? Chuck Schumer, Wall Street's senator? Nancy Pelosi, who has used her position to enrich herself? Elizabeth Warren, who lives in a $5.4M mansion and falsely claimed Native American ancestry to land a position at Harvard teaching one class while being paid $350,000 per year?
Look around, there is no real difference between the parties as their loyalties are to the 1% and the globalists who have taken over out government.
Look around, there is no real difference between the parties as their loyalties are to the 1% and the globalists who have taken over out government.
3
This was a terrible shameful process from beginning to end. The Tories (in power) were on both sides of this and neither set were willing to make the key point to the electorate that most of the problems Britain has originate in Britain with Westminster and the right wing policies of the Cameron government and have little to do with Europe. Britain had access to a huge market at very low cost and has thrown that away to pursue a fantasy at what will be a great cost to its wealth, stature and influence in the world. It will inevitably now lead to the dissolution of the UK as Scotland will leave. The left, led by an unreconstructed left wing ideologue (thank Hillary that she crushed Bernie later), would not make the case to remain because their leader believes that the EU is a conspiracy against the working class. The EU for sure is deeply flawed but that was irrelevant to the question as to whether Britain should be in or not. A dark dark day.
18
Agreed. David Cameron never should have put this to the people because it became a proxy for overall disenchantment with the many left behind (as in the USA and the Trump followers). When the job comes to untangle and recast the huge volume of details Boris Johnson will of course be nowhere to be seen. The Brexiters have been had – they just don't know it yet.
7
Northern Ireland voted to remain. They're angry. Maybe angry enough to start talks with Dublin, which should take some pointers from Helmut Kohl.
Then there's Scotland, which also voted to remain and now expects another independence referendum so it can continue to sell duty-free scotch in the EU.
Before too long we may see Britain reduced to its Roman borders (England and Wales).
Then there's Scotland, which also voted to remain and now expects another independence referendum so it can continue to sell duty-free scotch in the EU.
Before too long we may see Britain reduced to its Roman borders (England and Wales).
15
Northern Ireland is England's Puerto Rico; poor, unproductive, corrupt and a burden for health and social services. Then add the Orangemen prone to violence.
Ireland doesn't want them.
Ireland doesn't want them.
1
The British government has fed delusions and created a belief among most in England that they are powerful wealthy and only a little short of being a Super Power. If you said there were four or five important countries in the world they could not conceive that they weren't one. They might list USA, Britain, China and Japan. When I first came the UK I just fell slack jawed at the insanity of this belief held even by supposedly reasonable people. Admittedly most young people and the educated and under 40 years have a view nearer to reality. Still their idea of ( lets just say England from now on because Scots have no influence in the government ) England's place in the world is a little grandiose.
George Orwell wrote about this tendency in England in 1984. Double speak and a national fantasy being lived out as reality.
Reality is going to come crashing down this delusion. Not important and not wealthy. How are they going to deal with this? Why they'll blame everyone else of course.
The other EU states by necessity will try to ameliorate the exit of the UK by slicing off parts of its trade in particular the activities of the City of London. Self interest is justified and the EU owes the UK nothing but will all be represented as attacks. The English seized by their delusion of Imperial Greatness will make demands that the EU states will simply reject. Like a short man who watches to many movies starting a bar fight.
George Orwell wrote about this tendency in England in 1984. Double speak and a national fantasy being lived out as reality.
Reality is going to come crashing down this delusion. Not important and not wealthy. How are they going to deal with this? Why they'll blame everyone else of course.
The other EU states by necessity will try to ameliorate the exit of the UK by slicing off parts of its trade in particular the activities of the City of London. Self interest is justified and the EU owes the UK nothing but will all be represented as attacks. The English seized by their delusion of Imperial Greatness will make demands that the EU states will simply reject. Like a short man who watches to many movies starting a bar fight.
12
Michael Gove is from Aberdeen. Scots actually have an outsized influence in the UK government. Not only is your comment misinformed it is patronizing.
1
More than 50% of the citizens of Britain voted for this decision and you are here to say, that none of them knew what they were doing and don’t have a valid point of view. That you have the correct view. Amazing.
And regardless of England’s place in the world, they are British citizens in a democracy and have the right to live their lives the way they decide and choose. They have chosen. However it works out, they were right to do what they thought was best. What right do you have to say otherwise? And to criticize?
And regardless of England’s place in the world, they are British citizens in a democracy and have the right to live their lives the way they decide and choose. They have chosen. However it works out, they were right to do what they thought was best. What right do you have to say otherwise? And to criticize?
I'm wondering if Great Britain leaving the EU is in part an overt expression of "Future Shock" the theory proposed by Alvin Toffler in his classic book of the same name. It's a theory that shows that too much change too fast overwhelms an individual's or even a country's ability to cope; to adapt. In psychology it's called the adaptation syndrome. For example, Toffler states that future shock is "the shattering stress and disorientation that's induced in individuals by subjecting them to too much change too fast." Also, "Humans have a limited biological capacity for change. When this capacity is overwhelmed it leads to (attempts to return to a more stable secure safe comfortable time. Yet it can also lead to blind attempts at relief that can unwittingly cause more problems in it's wake.) When considering immigration, the refugee crisis, globalization, and so on, Britain, like so many other countries including the USA might in fact be in a state of "Future Shock" unable anymore to adapt to overwhelming change and thus is seeking retreat via nationalism or literal/figurative walls.
27
The book "Future Shock" was interesting--but there are too many examples of how wrong it can be. Certainly, the shock to the nations of Western Europe from the damage and loss of life from WWII was a far greater shock than anything like the impact income inequality and migration has actually achieved--yet, the populations recovered (in both capitalist and communist countries) significantly within a decade, and certainly within a generation.
The certain shock from climate change will hit Britain and the rest of the world far harder than anything we have seen so far. Of course we will adapt in some fashion. The question is: "Will the adaptation make most peoples' lives far worse (or far shorter) or maintain and improve them?"
The certain shock from climate change will hit Britain and the rest of the world far harder than anything we have seen so far. Of course we will adapt in some fashion. The question is: "Will the adaptation make most peoples' lives far worse (or far shorter) or maintain and improve them?"
This editorial makes the same mistake it criticizes. It is condescending and ignores the very real negative effects of the EU. It uses demagoguery to belittle real concerns "And if this Britain has shown itself vulnerable to nationalist, antiglobalization and anti-immigrant sentiments, what of the populist rebellions that have spread through other European states? Will the British precedent embolden other xenophobic movements, weakening the remaining union?" I believe this condescension and demagoguery were fatal to the REMAIN camp. Unless the political elites of the western democracies begin to sincerely and meaningfully engage with the 99% there will be more of this. Most people in the UK are not xenophobes (I lived there 19 years and have 3 UK/US nationality grandchildren) but they are aware that the political elites have not dealt effectively with the ramifications of the Euro and uncontrolled immigration. This editorial continues the line of ignoring the real life for working people in the 21st century. And it is a reminder why outside of metropolitan Washington DC and New York York City politicians and journalist are not greatly respected.
161
Perhaps the EU is not the perfect solution for the needs of one country.
But you simply cannot isolate yourself, stick your head in the sand like an ostrich and hope the world problems don't intervene while you nap.
But you simply cannot isolate yourself, stick your head in the sand like an ostrich and hope the world problems don't intervene while you nap.
@Rita,
I agree with Mr. Johnson. Those in power, have been blissfully and arrogantly dismissive of the issues with which the middle class have been struggling. The establishment of the EU are quick to provide solutions for peoples of other countries while ignoring the needs of their own citizens.
The EU has had many problems and perhaps some of them could have been remedied but those in charge dismissed any concerns that did not fit in their preconceived agenda, and now they are reaping the harvest of their disdain.
The middle class does not have its head in the sand, but the ruling class certain has had their heads in the clouds or some other place where it can ignore its own citizenry.
I agree with Mr. Johnson. Those in power, have been blissfully and arrogantly dismissive of the issues with which the middle class have been struggling. The establishment of the EU are quick to provide solutions for peoples of other countries while ignoring the needs of their own citizens.
The EU has had many problems and perhaps some of them could have been remedied but those in charge dismissed any concerns that did not fit in their preconceived agenda, and now they are reaping the harvest of their disdain.
The middle class does not have its head in the sand, but the ruling class certain has had their heads in the clouds or some other place where it can ignore its own citizenry.
4
Then explain, Jim Johnson why London, Scotland, and Northern Ireland voted by near super-majorities to remain? - What it really points to is that stupid people are easily manipulated by anger. What remains to be seen is how they react to the sorry results of their stupidity.
1
The two sides have been presenting two different arguments. The "stay" folks focus on economics whereas the "exit" folks focus on migration. The two may be tenuously connected in that people migrate to improve their economic situation, but for those who are not mobile there is no upside to migration since their economic status remains frozen, or in fact may deteriorate.
It is a serious conundrum with no easy answer. One solution is for government to invest more in their citizens and infrastructure; something that has been stymied by opposition from conservatives.
Hopefully enough Americans see this and come to their senses in November.
It is a serious conundrum with no easy answer. One solution is for government to invest more in their citizens and infrastructure; something that has been stymied by opposition from conservatives.
Hopefully enough Americans see this and come to their senses in November.
17
We could solve the problems of Africa, the Middle East and southeast Asia in Africa, the Middle East and southeast Asia.
1
I believe they use "migrate" where we would use "immigrate," to refer to new arrivals from other countries, not to their own mobility.
What are you talking about? Sounds pretty out of touch and presumptuous.
I heard a conservative pondent respond that the Brexit vote is a mandate to follow Reagan and Thatcher economics.
If this is the case, the voters will be sadly disappointed when they see the top 1% amass the majority of income growth while the 99% experience stagnant and plummeting personal income. Sadly, they will not see the consequences of such fiscal policies until they are broke and powerless even more.
I hope it goes well for the United Kingom.
If this is the case, the voters will be sadly disappointed when they see the top 1% amass the majority of income growth while the 99% experience stagnant and plummeting personal income. Sadly, they will not see the consequences of such fiscal policies until they are broke and powerless even more.
I hope it goes well for the United Kingom.
19
Per-capita GDP, adjusted for inflation, has more than doubled since the 1980s.
But I am sure you won't let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
But I am sure you won't let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
1
@ Truth
There won't be a United Kingdom much longer once Scotland, which has overwhelmingly voted for Stay, and N. Ireland proclaiming to reunite with Ireland proper, in order to be independent from England and stay in the EU.
There won't be a United Kingdom much longer once Scotland, which has overwhelmingly voted for Stay, and N. Ireland proclaiming to reunite with Ireland proper, in order to be independent from England and stay in the EU.
1
It was because of these policies they voted to leave. The one percent have rested control away from the masses already and to assume it could get any worse is ludicrous.
Geopolitically, Brexit is a step backward towards integration of the Western and especially the European world.
The leaderships in Britain, other countries in Europe and even in the USA with its America first supporters have done a poor job of educating their peoples about sovereignty in a globalizing world with enormous challenges and even looming calamities. They also have demonstrated a lack of leadership in developing a vision of believable futures.
My vision for the next 30 years where the ocean level may rise two meters and where severe droughts, fires and flooding were become the normal is to develop a vision to deal with the looming climate catastrophe as a matter of priority in leadership. This could start with transforming the global money system away from privately owned banking systems to public banking. I have spelled out in Verhagen 2012 "The Tierra Solution: Resolving the climate crisis through monetary transformation" the conceptual, institutional, ethical and strategic dimensions of a just, sustainable and, therefore, stable international monetary system based upon a carbon standard of a specific tonnage of CO2e per person. This Tierra system would be democratically governed by a global central bank and would have a transformed balance of payments system that would account both for financial and ecological (climate) debts and credits. This transformed global governance would be based upon the integration of social, ecological and monetary justice.
The leaderships in Britain, other countries in Europe and even in the USA with its America first supporters have done a poor job of educating their peoples about sovereignty in a globalizing world with enormous challenges and even looming calamities. They also have demonstrated a lack of leadership in developing a vision of believable futures.
My vision for the next 30 years where the ocean level may rise two meters and where severe droughts, fires and flooding were become the normal is to develop a vision to deal with the looming climate catastrophe as a matter of priority in leadership. This could start with transforming the global money system away from privately owned banking systems to public banking. I have spelled out in Verhagen 2012 "The Tierra Solution: Resolving the climate crisis through monetary transformation" the conceptual, institutional, ethical and strategic dimensions of a just, sustainable and, therefore, stable international monetary system based upon a carbon standard of a specific tonnage of CO2e per person. This Tierra system would be democratically governed by a global central bank and would have a transformed balance of payments system that would account both for financial and ecological (climate) debts and credits. This transformed global governance would be based upon the integration of social, ecological and monetary justice.
9
How about an international effort to promote worldwide birth control? Brexit is to some degree about that and to deny it is to bury ones head in the sand. Pakistan and west Asia and subsaharan Africa are unsustainable due to water and resource shortages combined with insane religious and customary birth rates.. The overflow is headed to Europe and up to now Britain. Money and global warming are simply side effects just as shortness of breath would be a side effect of uncontrolled lung cancer. You can treat the shortness of breath but the patient is headed down the tubes.
4
Monetary "transformation" will be driven by the impending 2-5 degree C increase in global temperature. It cannot have the slightest effect on the
potential methane-accelerated positive feedback loop in the Arctic.
potential methane-accelerated positive feedback loop in the Arctic.
Your vision? I think you are out of touch with the current realities. What has happened in Britain today, should be waking you up. You are going the opposite direction than most of us want to go. And because you don't see that, you oppose what people want and need and create further conflict.
What the Times does not seem to get is that the Britain it describes was disappearing. It was being sucked into a political union run by Germany and France. Britain was ceasing to be an independent country.
The Times seems to assume that British voters are just like Trump's supporters. This is a poor analogy, however in any democracy ordinary people should have the right to complain and change things. That is how democracy works. The EU's regulations have been incorporated into British law. For the time being they will be adhered to. However, there is a demand from small businesses to slash the red tape that has been forced upon them by the EU. This will take a massive legislative effort.
German business believes in free markets and its leaders are already putting pressure on Merkel to be sensible. The UK is a lucrative market for the German auto sector and they don't want to be excluded. Britain is still a key member of NATO and has the world's 4th largest military, so things should remain the same from a security standpoint. However, if its supposed friends start behaving like enemies its priorities are likely to change.
The Times seems to assume that British voters are just like Trump's supporters. This is a poor analogy, however in any democracy ordinary people should have the right to complain and change things. That is how democracy works. The EU's regulations have been incorporated into British law. For the time being they will be adhered to. However, there is a demand from small businesses to slash the red tape that has been forced upon them by the EU. This will take a massive legislative effort.
German business believes in free markets and its leaders are already putting pressure on Merkel to be sensible. The UK is a lucrative market for the German auto sector and they don't want to be excluded. Britain is still a key member of NATO and has the world's 4th largest military, so things should remain the same from a security standpoint. However, if its supposed friends start behaving like enemies its priorities are likely to change.
19
While the rhetoric and overblown analysis continues, ultimately, everyone will act in their financial self-interest. The fact remains, no one knows exactly the long term ramifications of such an action, yet, despite the fact the world has changed, Britain and Europe in general did not always have the EU, life will go on.
In an era of global economic stagnation fueled by short-sighted austerity politics in Britain and the rest of its soon to be divorced E.U. partners as well as here with Republicans unwilling to spend a nickel, we do have the same forces at work--ant-immigration and anti-free trade, that as you ask, "is whether the success of the “leave” voters – a group eerily similar to Donald Trump’s followers, motivated by many of the same frustrations and angers – presages a Trump victory." Certainly, the political dynamic is in place here if Hillary Clinton continues to take a centrist, Wall Street position rather than embrace more fully the anti-establishment populist positions of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. As a "Feel the Bern" Democrat, who truly fears the bigoted xenophobia of Donald Trump, I hope Sec. Clinton will do something truly dramatic like declare her independence from Wall Street by returning all the ill-considered speaking fees, advocating for a pro-worker, pro-labor, fair trade policy to replace NAFTA and the TPP, and sealing the deal by making Elizabeth Warren her running mate. Otherwise, she and our country are all-too-vulnerable to the global winds of Trumpism and his phony populism that may out-flank her on the left.
2
Clinton not obeying her Wall Street Corporate Masters is something I or you should not count on. Goodness.
The Brexit vote showed what happens when the citizens of a country feel like they have no voice. Wealth continues to accumulate among a very small portion of the population, affordable housing is impossible to find and jobs that pay a living wage continue to disappear. Meanwhile, our political leaders are indentured servants of the wealthy and corporate elites.
In a rational world, England would have woken up still part of the EU and Trump wouldn’t be the Republican nominee with a realistic chance of being President. These are not rational times and it isn’t the fault of the people. Blame goes to our morally bankrupt institutions.
In a rational world, England would have woken up still part of the EU and Trump wouldn’t be the Republican nominee with a realistic chance of being President. These are not rational times and it isn’t the fault of the people. Blame goes to our morally bankrupt institutions.
8
"For Americans, a related question is whether the success of the “leave” voters – a group eerily similar to Donald Trump’s followers, motivated by many of the same frustrations and angers – presages a Trump victory."
Well yes,there is that indeed. Seems to me that far too many of those "on top" have been disregarding the anger and resentments of a large segment of the population. This holds true for the US as well as the UK. The success of candidates such as Trump and Sanders, who were most assuredly not their party picks, provides a good forecast as to the mood of many in the US.
Reading the articles in leftist publications such as the WAPO and the NYT is almost amusing. The endless articles promoting Clinton and denigrating Trump. The comments section filled with the same. Only problem is that while those who write the articles and those who post the comments are essentially preaching to the choir, they forget that there are many in this country who don't share their viewpoint. And these people do vote.
Well yes,there is that indeed. Seems to me that far too many of those "on top" have been disregarding the anger and resentments of a large segment of the population. This holds true for the US as well as the UK. The success of candidates such as Trump and Sanders, who were most assuredly not their party picks, provides a good forecast as to the mood of many in the US.
Reading the articles in leftist publications such as the WAPO and the NYT is almost amusing. The endless articles promoting Clinton and denigrating Trump. The comments section filled with the same. Only problem is that while those who write the articles and those who post the comments are essentially preaching to the choir, they forget that there are many in this country who don't share their viewpoint. And these people do vote.
5
"However frightening Brexit may appear on the morning after, the political, economic and security institutions of the West are solid and flexible....".
I fail to understand the quote above from the article - what 'West' are you talking about. One with $21 trillion dollars in debt, and Donald Trump is our Republican candidate?
You're referring to that as 'solid and flexible'?
The exit will flush out the opaqueness of the European Union - it will become increasing difficult for Italy, Portugal, Spain and Greece to hide their problems under the security blanket of the Union.
Expose the Union for what it is - an assortment of countries that are very different economically, socially and culturally - it will not sustain and will eventually completely break apart.
It's not the 'end of the world' as the press would like us to believe. We will move past this and benefit from it - it's a lesson we all need to understand and learn from.
I fail to understand the quote above from the article - what 'West' are you talking about. One with $21 trillion dollars in debt, and Donald Trump is our Republican candidate?
You're referring to that as 'solid and flexible'?
The exit will flush out the opaqueness of the European Union - it will become increasing difficult for Italy, Portugal, Spain and Greece to hide their problems under the security blanket of the Union.
Expose the Union for what it is - an assortment of countries that are very different economically, socially and culturally - it will not sustain and will eventually completely break apart.
It's not the 'end of the world' as the press would like us to believe. We will move past this and benefit from it - it's a lesson we all need to understand and learn from.
4
Individuals are intelligent, thoughtful and supportive. The crowd is ignorant, stupid and selfish. All of my life I've believed in the innate justice and reasonable behavior of individuals even if the crowd seemed insane.
But at this date it appears to me I'm wrong. It appears to me a human with 100 coconuts will climb down from a tree to bash in the head another human with a single coconut for the purpose of stealing that coconut too.
I saw an older women the other day driving an Audi SUV with a Trump sticker. Don't tell me Trump's followers are downtrodden and left behind. They are stupid and selfish and want more than they probably have any right to deserve. Just like Trump.
It's been a little over a year since I've been in the UK. London was humming as was Edinburgh. The countryside in between seemed prosperous. Even Wales seemed fat and happy. People were preparing for the holidays and everyone had plenty to eat and a place to live unlike some of the US.
Explain to me please how this is an economic referendum in a country where while not everyone lives the life of a television star, everyone is taken care of? Can you do that?
Two things need to happen: The rich need to stop stealing everyone's single coconut. And we the people need to get a grip on what we can realistically expect from life with the minimal effort most of us put into it.
But at this date it appears to me I'm wrong. It appears to me a human with 100 coconuts will climb down from a tree to bash in the head another human with a single coconut for the purpose of stealing that coconut too.
I saw an older women the other day driving an Audi SUV with a Trump sticker. Don't tell me Trump's followers are downtrodden and left behind. They are stupid and selfish and want more than they probably have any right to deserve. Just like Trump.
It's been a little over a year since I've been in the UK. London was humming as was Edinburgh. The countryside in between seemed prosperous. Even Wales seemed fat and happy. People were preparing for the holidays and everyone had plenty to eat and a place to live unlike some of the US.
Explain to me please how this is an economic referendum in a country where while not everyone lives the life of a television star, everyone is taken care of? Can you do that?
Two things need to happen: The rich need to stop stealing everyone's single coconut. And we the people need to get a grip on what we can realistically expect from life with the minimal effort most of us put into it.
18
MJ - If you are troubled, it’s no wonder, with that life view. People who you disagree with are stupid and selfish and I suppose you see yourself as the model we should all follow? Very judgmental, very self righteous. Two qualities that do not add any benefit to the conversation at all.
The fourth estate has failed. It has chosen to take sides instead of informing people in an unbiased manner. Every part of every article is slanted, written to nudge people consciously or unconsciously to their corporate mandate. The elites and the entrenched political establishment continues to underestimate the anger and resentment felt by a large percentage of the population.
England will always be a player in the financial markets despite the panic voices being heard and read today. This vote was totally a vote against the establishment. It would be wise for the NYTimes' hand picked next president and all our the members of Congress to take heed. People do pay attention and people have very strong thoughts and ideas where their country should be headed. This should be viewed as a wake up call for the US as we head into November with two of the most unqualified candidates in the history of our nation to be running for office.
England will always be a player in the financial markets despite the panic voices being heard and read today. This vote was totally a vote against the establishment. It would be wise for the NYTimes' hand picked next president and all our the members of Congress to take heed. People do pay attention and people have very strong thoughts and ideas where their country should be headed. This should be viewed as a wake up call for the US as we head into November with two of the most unqualified candidates in the history of our nation to be running for office.
9
If England stayed in the EU, they would have to continue to support the bankrupt "Nanny States" that live off of borrowed money instead of working at jobs that create taxable wealth in their own "Nanny State" nations to pay for their own government activities.
The USA is also living off of borrowed money instead of creating taxable wealth in the USA to pay for government activities.
The USA is emulating the deficit spending economic policies of the Greek Government, and expecting a different outcome.
The USA is also living off of borrowed money instead of creating taxable wealth in the USA to pay for government activities.
The USA is emulating the deficit spending economic policies of the Greek Government, and expecting a different outcome.
8
Yesterday I voted to remain in the EU. Sadly, this morning, I awoke to find that the country had chosen a leap into the void over the stability and realiability of the EU. As an institution the EU is arrogant and unfailingly apathetic towards many ordinary citizens. However, it has brought order to the most violent contient in the world. Europe has never known peace, the entire history of the continent is one of unceasing bloodshed culminating in world war 2. The EU showed us we could bind ourselves together and be richer for it. Open borders and freedom of trade have allowed an atmosphere of tolerance and liberalism to become the core of European values.
Yesterday that changed; bitter, resentful and overall ignorant people destroyed that. As a millenial, I stand aghast that my elders. The young voted to remain by an overwheling majority, 16-18 year olds who were not allowed to vote were polled in favour of remain by 75%. Not content with burdening us with their debts and the their environmental pillaging, our seniors have decided to burn the foundation upon which our society has been based in the name of taking back that which never was, our greatness.
The leave campaign played on people's prejudices, blatently lied about the financial impact and has spat upon the goodwill of the international community. I can only apologise to our European brothers and sisters, and hope that we can somehow salvage some measure of dignity from the rubble that was Great Britain.
Yesterday that changed; bitter, resentful and overall ignorant people destroyed that. As a millenial, I stand aghast that my elders. The young voted to remain by an overwheling majority, 16-18 year olds who were not allowed to vote were polled in favour of remain by 75%. Not content with burdening us with their debts and the their environmental pillaging, our seniors have decided to burn the foundation upon which our society has been based in the name of taking back that which never was, our greatness.
The leave campaign played on people's prejudices, blatently lied about the financial impact and has spat upon the goodwill of the international community. I can only apologise to our European brothers and sisters, and hope that we can somehow salvage some measure of dignity from the rubble that was Great Britain.
6
The Brexit vote was a referendum on the status quo, and to the great shock of the political and financial elite of all persuasions, the peasants rose up. Not with pitchforks, but with the vote.
If it can happen in Britain, with it's much better educated population than America, it can happen here too.
Here in America, we're looking at an presidential election between an establishment, status quo politician (Obama's 3rd term!) and an anti-establishment non-politician. We're looking at a referendum on the status quo. As the election approaches, more and more of the 'conservative' political and economic elite will come out in favor of Clinton - realizing that Trump will drop the stock market 30% or more overnight. And as elites on the right move to support Clinton, the people will realize that this election isn't a choice between liberal and conservative, but between establishment status quo and something different. Angry, dissatisfied people, sick of being sucked dry by the vampire squid of Wall Street and globalization, will make their protest vote, and the world will suffer for it.
If it can happen in Britain, with it's much better educated population than America, it can happen here too.
Here in America, we're looking at an presidential election between an establishment, status quo politician (Obama's 3rd term!) and an anti-establishment non-politician. We're looking at a referendum on the status quo. As the election approaches, more and more of the 'conservative' political and economic elite will come out in favor of Clinton - realizing that Trump will drop the stock market 30% or more overnight. And as elites on the right move to support Clinton, the people will realize that this election isn't a choice between liberal and conservative, but between establishment status quo and something different. Angry, dissatisfied people, sick of being sucked dry by the vampire squid of Wall Street and globalization, will make their protest vote, and the world will suffer for it.
7
On many fronts, Civilization is at a breakpoint, rejecting continued growth, for the sake of growth. Free flowing populations of radically diverse cultural flavors has not proven stress free. A majority of the 64 Million people of the UK have voted toward a more directed control of their own future. I do not see this as necessarily a bad thing. 7 billion people and counting, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, punish currencies around the world for lack of growth, this cycle needs to end. As countries turn inward, assessing how we can contribute in this Global resource sharing and trade it is evident that long term change and control of growth are necessary. Civilizational peaks and valleys have a history of repeating themselves. Peak oil is within site or past, Peak fresh water in much of the world is a real problem, Global coastal flooding is about to begin. North America, (I am Canadian) is well positioned to be self sufficient, much more so than many countries. We need to invest in Science, education, and resource management, so that we can go forward in a positive manner. There should always be western democratic separation of church and state. I am very wary of emigrating uneducated populations, that wear their religion on their sleeve, breed at rates that can challenge the notion of changing cultural norms. This is a major factor as to why UK has opted to slow down free flowing populations. They only wish to conserve and control their future
11
Britain's voters have spoken, and now for better or more likely worse Britain will leave the EU. Democracy is well known to be the worst form of government there is (except for all other forms).
The question for the United States is the question raised at the end of this editorial. Do the events in Britain presage November's election in this country?
We are, after all, having something of a perfect storm. Our economy is still in disarray; it has still not recovered from the financial debacle of almost a decade ago, and interest rates are artificially near zero which is having a devastating effects on retirees and pension funds, both public and private. The threat of terrorism is real and growing, and the government seems powerless to fight it. The world's problems, from the middle east to Latin America, knock on our door, and immigration and refugees are divisive wedge issues of enormous potency.
Politically, the Democratic leadership is about to nominate the flawed Hillary Clinton; the Republican leadership tried to do better, but the Republican voters didn't let them, instead selecting the worrisome Mr. Trump.
Personally, I think the Scotus AA decision is pouring gasoline on a fire, with its blatant disregard for the clear language of the equal protection clause of our Constitution; but realistically this issue may well fade from the limelight.
But, overall, it's getting hard to sleep at night. It would no longer surprise me if Mr. Trump becomes our next President.
The question for the United States is the question raised at the end of this editorial. Do the events in Britain presage November's election in this country?
We are, after all, having something of a perfect storm. Our economy is still in disarray; it has still not recovered from the financial debacle of almost a decade ago, and interest rates are artificially near zero which is having a devastating effects on retirees and pension funds, both public and private. The threat of terrorism is real and growing, and the government seems powerless to fight it. The world's problems, from the middle east to Latin America, knock on our door, and immigration and refugees are divisive wedge issues of enormous potency.
Politically, the Democratic leadership is about to nominate the flawed Hillary Clinton; the Republican leadership tried to do better, but the Republican voters didn't let them, instead selecting the worrisome Mr. Trump.
Personally, I think the Scotus AA decision is pouring gasoline on a fire, with its blatant disregard for the clear language of the equal protection clause of our Constitution; but realistically this issue may well fade from the limelight.
But, overall, it's getting hard to sleep at night. It would no longer surprise me if Mr. Trump becomes our next President.
3
Alex - It’s odd, we seem to see some of the same issues facing the country, but then your thought process seems to stop there. I don’t blame you for not being able to see a clear direction that we should be going. But I don’t agree that the Scoutus decision is a negative, I see it as the only ray of light in a dark terrain. That is at least a step in the right direction. I’m sorry that you can’t try to see how that could be.
Once again England abandons its dream of ruling Europe. From victory to victory on the battle field the English lost all continental foothold and were condemned to leave the continent. The present vote supports de Gaulle's view. The risk is that the dream of a united Europe be sucked into the void created. If France and Germany, cultural kins manage to rekindle the historic pull, manage to resuscitate Charlemagne, reunite the Celts, the Franks, the Alamans and other ccontinental people, kick out the Moslems once again, then Europe could come to life, a very unlikely outcome.
No one wants it; the Americans, the Russians, the Vickings, the Arabs and Moors, all against it while the Mediterraneans are only mildly supportive.
The odds are poor.
No one wants it; the Americans, the Russians, the Vickings, the Arabs and Moors, all against it while the Mediterraneans are only mildly supportive.
The odds are poor.
3
Populism (as one can see from the comments already posted here) is a corrosive and counterproductive force, combining as it does fear and resentment, much of it jealous, racist, nativist, and jingoist. It's hard for the average person to understand that freer global trade results in more wealth for all (a rising tide lifts all boats, and I care about my ship, not about the voyage of people who are wealthier than I) and promotes interconnected interests between various peoples.
Britain will now serve as the model for what happens when populism triumphs. It won't be pretty in financial terms or political terms. Americans must resist its manifestation here (as Trumpism). If we do not, we will suffer the same unfortunate consequences of financial and political isolation.
Britain will now serve as the model for what happens when populism triumphs. It won't be pretty in financial terms or political terms. Americans must resist its manifestation here (as Trumpism). If we do not, we will suffer the same unfortunate consequences of financial and political isolation.
5
I think the condemnation that the 'Leave' voters are just a bunch of xenophobic, know-nothing racists falls way short. I have British friends who work in banking, real estate and other professions and are very well off. Nonetheless, many of them too were in the 'Leave' camp. In our private lives we always emphasize that money is not everything, but in politics it, as exemplified by economic arguments, should be decisive? We say fate is not foreordained, that means it is up to individuals, collectively, to decide which way they want to go as a people. But the Remain camp, and its journalistic supporters, portray globalization and integration as a one way street, which only losers and the disaffected would want to leave, and resistance against this force of history is useless anyway. If I like my subdivision better the way it was 10 years ago, wouldn't I try to revert it to that situation? Lastly, the incredibly elitist, undemocratic argument that Cameron made a blunder by letting people vote. Is voting not the heart of democracy? Or should voting for the public only occur, if the matters are minor? And wanting to limit immigration does not mean xenophobia, it perhaps means having an influence over who comes (see Australia among others). I think Britain perhaps made a mistake, but I am far from certain. The EU as currently operating is an elite and deeply undemocratic project. Turning away from it is a defensible choice not limited to racists, losers and xenophobes.
17
People voted for Putin. People voted for Hitler.
Voting ain't everything - in fact, it *can* be worse than anything. The Brexits managed to pull this off, but they're going to be just as craven as the opponents they beat when people find out in a couple of years that they're worse off than they were - they'll pull out their union jacks and celebrate their independence, while the EU leaves them behind in coming years.
Voting ain't everything - in fact, it *can* be worse than anything. The Brexits managed to pull this off, but they're going to be just as craven as the opponents they beat when people find out in a couple of years that they're worse off than they were - they'll pull out their union jacks and celebrate their independence, while the EU leaves them behind in coming years.
1
Perhaps if the EU had been more of a democracy instead of a bureaucracy this might never had happened. The concerns of the electorate, not only in the UK but across the EU, have been ignored by those at the top of the EU for too many years. The same applies to our own politicians. We in the Shires have been forgotten in a London centric Parliament so is it such a surprise that we have voted the way we have. As for Scotland, I have never quite understood how the SNP prefer democracy in the UK (which has given the largest majority they have ever had in Parliament) to bureaucracy in the EU, I put it down to their hatred of England. Time will tell if we have made the right decision, personally I think we have.
11
A terrible, lose/lose result for both Britain and the EU - nobody should be feeling proud of this. For Britain, my country, the political spivs falsely polarized the country with talk of a panacea for soluble problems, if only the vote would be for division, pettiness, negativity, defeat of the human spirit. For the EU, the collective arrogance and failure of imagination of the mandarins in Brussels and Strasbourg saw to it that the country that rescued the continent from their last nightmare, and that has been a powerhouse in building better lives for all of their people, will walk away. For Britain, there will be buyer's remorse. For the EU, something worse.
2
The fundamental issue is that powerful Western societies are becoming more frightened and paranoid in reference to other cultures - and subsequently needlessly protectionist and ignorant.
"Globalization" is not something industrialized countries are "subjected" to; it is the inevitable result of our small world becoming much more accessible and commercially viable.
Borders are only effective in name during this unprecedented transition of collective, international existence. To resist these changing times of social and cultural integration will only postpone what we all need to ultimately address in the future.
The rest of the world is not going away. It's here to stay. And no number of walls nor departures from global alliances will change that.
I'm unsure why that fundamental reality is so difficult for seemingly good people to grasp.
"Globalization" is not something industrialized countries are "subjected" to; it is the inevitable result of our small world becoming much more accessible and commercially viable.
Borders are only effective in name during this unprecedented transition of collective, international existence. To resist these changing times of social and cultural integration will only postpone what we all need to ultimately address in the future.
The rest of the world is not going away. It's here to stay. And no number of walls nor departures from global alliances will change that.
I'm unsure why that fundamental reality is so difficult for seemingly good people to grasp.
2
In this day of globalization and concentration of wealth, ultimately, this vote was as much as anything about doing what was necessary to defy being in lock step with the power brokers and elitists who wished to maintain the status quo. Like America, it seems Britain has finally got tired of the same small very powerful group of people getting rich at their expense and this was their way of democratically expressing that dissatisfaction.
As much of a gamble as it may or may not be, the working people of Britain have stated unequivocally, we have had enough. Are you next America?
As much of a gamble as it may or may not be, the working people of Britain have stated unequivocally, we have had enough. Are you next America?
2
They *do* grasp it. But they don't want it. It scares them. They prefer to try and roll back the clock, and, of course, no one has ever succeeded in that quest.
1
Paranoid? I read the other day that there are an estimated 53 million people displaced now, that are looking for a new home and Europe is on the front lines. I'm afraid you and I have a very different definition of paranoia. You can call it 'globalization' and 'immigration' but let's call it what it really is….an invasion.
The sky is not falling. The world is not falling apart. The British people decided that bureacrats in Brussels should not dictate to them how they should run their economy, manufacture their products, educate their children, manage their economy, or feed their people.
The British people are resilient, hard working, inventive, and creative. Once the doomsayers are proven wrong the world will see that Britain has NOT withdrawn from the world but remains a vital and integral part of it. England will continue to thrive and prosper. It has done so before the E.U. ever existed and will do so irregardless of whether or not the E.U. continues to exist or not.
Britain is entitled to control its own borders, its own economy, and its laws should be the governing factor over the daily lives of its millions of citizens, not someone elses.
The British people are resilient, hard working, inventive, and creative. Once the doomsayers are proven wrong the world will see that Britain has NOT withdrawn from the world but remains a vital and integral part of it. England will continue to thrive and prosper. It has done so before the E.U. ever existed and will do so irregardless of whether or not the E.U. continues to exist or not.
Britain is entitled to control its own borders, its own economy, and its laws should be the governing factor over the daily lives of its millions of citizens, not someone elses.
51
Your comment overlooks the facts and history in favor of sentimental prattle. The economic impact will be negotiated in the painful (for England) details. Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland will profit. London will be shaky. World history is not founded on sentiment or 'those were the days' brand false history and nostalgia.
2
Dear David Jonas,
Certainly there will be some negative repercussions for the UK, but frankly, the departure of Northern Ireland and even Scotland would probably have a salutary fiscal effect on England and Wales.
Considering England's banking industry has been (and well before the EU) a mighty economic power is not going to change that much.
The Europeans will be upset, but as always in the commercial world, love and hate take a back seat to who has a good product or a good price.
In the long run the UK is going to be just fine.
Certainly there will be some negative repercussions for the UK, but frankly, the departure of Northern Ireland and even Scotland would probably have a salutary fiscal effect on England and Wales.
Considering England's banking industry has been (and well before the EU) a mighty economic power is not going to change that much.
The Europeans will be upset, but as always in the commercial world, love and hate take a back seat to who has a good product or a good price.
In the long run the UK is going to be just fine.
Like the rest of the EU citizens, I feel rejected today and it hurts. I am deeply worried about my children who are living in London and are amongst the European professionals who have greatly contributed to the wealth of that city.
At the same time, I feel that it greatly clarifies the ambiguities that have been the mark of the British participation in the EU. From the very beginning they fought very hard to scuttle the project. Two years after having finally decided to enter, they had a first referendum about leaving, which failed.
Then Margaret Thatcher “wanted her money back” and the UK got a rebate that nothing could justify. Then they refused the Euro but managed to use it to make London the financial capital of the world. They got out of the Schengen agreement and at the same time got the French police to manage their frontier at Calais.
Finally, Cameron blackmailed us into hollowing the Treaties in order to avoid the Brexit. We agreed to shameful concessions and still got slapped in the face at the end.
So goodbye UK, maybe it was not worth it to be part of a club of which you were a member.
At the same time, I feel that it greatly clarifies the ambiguities that have been the mark of the British participation in the EU. From the very beginning they fought very hard to scuttle the project. Two years after having finally decided to enter, they had a first referendum about leaving, which failed.
Then Margaret Thatcher “wanted her money back” and the UK got a rebate that nothing could justify. Then they refused the Euro but managed to use it to make London the financial capital of the world. They got out of the Schengen agreement and at the same time got the French police to manage their frontier at Calais.
Finally, Cameron blackmailed us into hollowing the Treaties in order to avoid the Brexit. We agreed to shameful concessions and still got slapped in the face at the end.
So goodbye UK, maybe it was not worth it to be part of a club of which you were a member.
7
Your comment sounds like a very one sided review of what has conspired. No objectivity there. While I can hear that you feel rejected and that some events have happened that you disliked, I can't help but think you would feel differently if you tried the golden rule and tried to see things from their point of view and walked a mile in their shoes.
On many fronts, Civilization is at a breakpoint, rejecting continued growth, for the sake of growth. Free flowing populations of radically diverse cultural flavors has not proven stress free. A majority of the 64 Million people of the UK have voted toward a more directed control of their own future. I do not see this as necessarily a bad thing. 7 billion people and counting, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, punish currencies around the world for lack of growth, this cycle needs to end. As countries turn inward, assessing how we can contribute in this Global resource sharing and trade it is evident that long term change and control of growth are necessary. Civilizational peaks and valleys have a history of repeating themselves. Peak oil is within site or past, Peak fresh water in much of the world is a real problem, Global coastal flooding is about to begin. North America, (I am Canadian) is well positioned to be self sufficient, much more so than many countries. We need to invest in Science, education, and resource management, so that we can go forward in a positive manner. There should always be western democratic separation of church and state. I am very wary of emigrating uneducated populations, that wear their religion on their sleeve, breed at rates that can challenge the notion of changing cultural norms. This is a major factor as to why UK has opted to slow down free flowing populations. They only wish to conserve and control their future
15
The article is right (so to speak) about the causes. Economic inequality and decline of the middle class is the catalyst; uncontrolled immigration is the hot button; but the root cause is the undemocratic nature of the EU. If it wants to survive its operations have to become more subject to popular vote. Not that the U.S. is currently such a great example, but at least it has a better balance of state sovereignty against federal control.
10
Oh, get over it, NYTimes Editorial Staff. It's a new day! It's independence day for Britain! If nothing else, you should at least appreciate the 'cool' factor. This is totally cool. Who cares about the consequences when you are willing to risk all to be free. We are all British/Americans now. We're free!
Okay, there will be a hangover. We'll take an aspirin and go to work. If work is no longer there...we'll do something else.
Okay, there will be a hangover. We'll take an aspirin and go to work. If work is no longer there...we'll do something else.
15
Yes who needs a market, economy, or work anyway. That's all so silly.
Thank you for your self-certified parody from California.
If England truly wanted to be independent it would stop tithing to support titles and royalty.
Thank you for your self-certified parody from California.
If England truly wanted to be independent it would stop tithing to support titles and royalty.
1
ROFL
The fear and anger fuelled nationalism has ultimately resulted into the much feared Brexit from the EU ending the slowly evolving cooperative instincts of the large sections of British society. A decision arrived in hurry to be repented in leasure by the same majority that has enthusiastically supported the "leave" vote under the elusive nationalist frenzy.
4
'Dangerous unknown?' Britain lived on its own for centuries prior to the EU! Since the EU it quickly tired of immigration and economic chaos via Greece, etc.
84
Except for the family connections with the monarchy and the various political alliances with various European countries over the centuries. And then there were the Romans. But maybe you are talking about the period before the Romans?
5
This is untrue. Britain was a global power with colonies that gave it prestige, cheap imports, labor, and resources from 1583 (practically 1584) until 1980 (when Rhodesia gained independence as Zimbabwe). Meanwhile Wales was only annexed by England in the acts of union in 1536 and 1542. Scotland joined in 1707; Northern Ireland through a far more complicated and colonizing process in the 1800s. Before that, Scotland was frequently in union or political alliance with France, not England; and before that, England was itself frequently in union with France. In short, Great Britain has never really been alone without the EU. To say "Britain lived on its own for centuries prior to the EU" is simply false, and betrays a serious lack of historical perspective.
9
I know trying to speak reason to nativists is pointless but here are the facts:
The German economy is competitive; the Swiss economy is competitive, the Danish economy is competitive; the Dutch economy is competitive; the British economy is NOT. Britain's economy was never competitive.Before the wars it relayed heavily on looted resources from its colonies to prop up its economy.They literarily looted desks and phones from a West African anglophone nation (It might have been Guinea) on their way out.
After the wars and before joining the EEC in 1973, the U.K. economy was growing at 50% capacity of that of France , Germany and Italy. After it confirmed with a referendum to join the EEC in 1975, the UK economy outbid its European counterparts in growth.(http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html#axzz...
The disenfranchisement of workers has nothing to do with EU but the trickle-down/supply-side economics policies combined with globalization.
I am tired of nativist from every corners of the world scapegoating immigrants for everything.
The German economy is competitive; the Swiss economy is competitive, the Danish economy is competitive; the Dutch economy is competitive; the British economy is NOT. Britain's economy was never competitive.Before the wars it relayed heavily on looted resources from its colonies to prop up its economy.They literarily looted desks and phones from a West African anglophone nation (It might have been Guinea) on their way out.
After the wars and before joining the EEC in 1973, the U.K. economy was growing at 50% capacity of that of France , Germany and Italy. After it confirmed with a referendum to join the EEC in 1975, the UK economy outbid its European counterparts in growth.(http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html#axzz...
The disenfranchisement of workers has nothing to do with EU but the trickle-down/supply-side economics policies combined with globalization.
I am tired of nativist from every corners of the world scapegoating immigrants for everything.
2
Unfortunate decision for British youth who previously could use E.U. membership to get jobs in other E.U. countries.
Political and economic decisions made for emotional reasons are dangerous.
Political and economic decisions made for emotional reasons are dangerous.
32
Great point.
There are countless repercussions to this.
The less diverse you chose to become, the more antiquated and "out of touch" one's culture is destined to become.
The rest of the world isn't going away. And the more international opportunities are refused or arrogantly squandered, the faster irrelevancy of an isolationist mentality will cripple and permanently alter a country's global relevance.
There are countless repercussions to this.
The less diverse you chose to become, the more antiquated and "out of touch" one's culture is destined to become.
The rest of the world isn't going away. And the more international opportunities are refused or arrogantly squandered, the faster irrelevancy of an isolationist mentality will cripple and permanently alter a country's global relevance.
2
Cameron, Obama, Bush, Blair, and especially the Clintons, as dedicated neoliberals all subscribe to the K Street Consensus. The European Currency Union, without a Constitutionally Federated Union was the harebrained slight of hand, which had been perpetrated upon Europe by that international bipartisan elite, through Brussels, and its unaccountable apparatchiks.
Anyone who understands actual macro economics apart from the neoliberal agenda, which forcefully subscribed to a system of economic folly, where member states could be extracted from, but could not counter cyclically revive their economies or rebalance current accounts within the EU, should have known that the EU was foreordained to failure.
The Johns (the people of Britain) caught on that this system was Mafia, Whitehall, and Brussels par excellence, and the goal was the same as for any criminogenic enterprise: to take the money and run. They voted to take back their country for the good of its people, at least until Europe is Constitutionally Federated and democratic.
Anyone who understands actual macro economics apart from the neoliberal agenda, which forcefully subscribed to a system of economic folly, where member states could be extracted from, but could not counter cyclically revive their economies or rebalance current accounts within the EU, should have known that the EU was foreordained to failure.
The Johns (the people of Britain) caught on that this system was Mafia, Whitehall, and Brussels par excellence, and the goal was the same as for any criminogenic enterprise: to take the money and run. They voted to take back their country for the good of its people, at least until Europe is Constitutionally Federated and democratic.
6
What are you talking about, Keith. England - a country. Spain - a country. Saudia Arabia - a country. All different cultures and histories. What you seem to be suggesting is that we tear down the framework of the world as it has functioned since civilizations began to become one big melting pot, despite the fact that our cultures, beliefs and values diametrically oppose each other at times. You're making no sense.
1
If Britain can brexit the EU, can the U.S. usexit NAFTA and other free trade agreements?
60
The “Free Trade Agreements (FTAs)” and "Most Favored Trade Statuses (MFNs)" and the Permanent Normal Trade Relations (PNTRs) granted to third world nations by the US government in the last twenty years economically requires that US businesses relocate their jobs to third world nations in order to utilize foreign labor, foreign environmental regulations, and foreign electrical costs, as required to provide the lowest possible price in the USA for each US consumer purchase, instead of that US business going bankrupt.
1
Obama is going to re-negotiate NAFTA. Maybe he'll get to that in 2010 or so.
" ... a gamble on a dangerous unknown."
That's a little presumptuous of you. The future is known - it is Britain the way it existed for hundreds of years, with no need of help from Europe, Brussels bureaucrats, President Obama or the NYT editorial board.
The dangerous unknown was the Euro experiment, and that is also now known: it failed. It didn't have to fail but it did. The cause of failure was failed leadership from people who should have led but instead were statists, foremost among them the arrogant Angela Markel. Much of Brexit can be laid at her feet.
That's a little presumptuous of you. The future is known - it is Britain the way it existed for hundreds of years, with no need of help from Europe, Brussels bureaucrats, President Obama or the NYT editorial board.
The dangerous unknown was the Euro experiment, and that is also now known: it failed. It didn't have to fail but it did. The cause of failure was failed leadership from people who should have led but instead were statists, foremost among them the arrogant Angela Markel. Much of Brexit can be laid at her feet.
114
I think this is the clearest big picture understanding of the situation I have read today.
The vast expansion of free trade is relatively new (about 30 years). The world's nations traded with each other under different terms before that and somehow they managed to exist for a few thousand years without any of the current treaties or multi-national corporations.
The biggest threat long-term (given Europe's history of cultural conflicts) is a real war (and not of the kind fought with derivatives and tweets). But given the economic and technological linkages today, this is less likely than in prior ages.
The vast expansion of free trade is relatively new (about 30 years). The world's nations traded with each other under different terms before that and somehow they managed to exist for a few thousand years without any of the current treaties or multi-national corporations.
The biggest threat long-term (given Europe's history of cultural conflicts) is a real war (and not of the kind fought with derivatives and tweets). But given the economic and technological linkages today, this is less likely than in prior ages.
2
You mean except for those brief periods beginning in 1914 and 1939 when they asked for just a little outside help, right?
Why is it that comfortable elites, including the Times editorial board, never blame themselves?
Growing inequality is at the heart of these popular rebellions, and yet our betters are unwilling to give up a thing. On the contrary, the louder the protests, the more they insist on their privileges, dismissing the opposition as racist, deluded or (in the case of a recent American political candidate) "almost Marxist".
Other than mass revulsion, what other result do the monied and powerful expect?
Growing inequality is at the heart of these popular rebellions, and yet our betters are unwilling to give up a thing. On the contrary, the louder the protests, the more they insist on their privileges, dismissing the opposition as racist, deluded or (in the case of a recent American political candidate) "almost Marxist".
Other than mass revulsion, what other result do the monied and powerful expect?
388
@jrd - the question you pose can easily be turned around: ''why is it that belligerent Luddites who resent those who strive to spell correctly and use proper grammar or learn second languages and adapt from other cultures, blame other for their own insular laziness and complacent mediocrity that contributes to their perpetual failure?''
Why should the Times editorial board blame itself for Brexit? Populist anger in this case includes bigotry against immigrants, racism, and nationalism which has led to some of the worst atrocities and wars of the 20th century.
Calamity? Oh please. Now we'll see all the overblown doom-sayer rhetoric for the drivel it always was... The sky will not fall, self-interest will ensure that in actual fact, little in practice actually changes. Britain will continue to trade and do business with its neighbors in Europe, and will maintain friendly relations - perhaps even friendlier relations - after the exit is completed in an orderly way several years down the track. The great advantage Britain has it that it has retained its own currency, and that simplifies things enormously. Moving forward, it can simply pick and choose what regulations to change, and what to leave unchanged once it has decoupled itself from being bound by EU legislation.
Let's compare notes on this "calamity" three years down the track, shall we? My suspicion is that history will be kinder to the Brexit than is the current Times editorial board.
Let's compare notes on this "calamity" three years down the track, shall we? My suspicion is that history will be kinder to the Brexit than is the current Times editorial board.
176
Your optimism may not be justified. It is not in the interests of the remaining 27 EU nations to do anything but ensure failure in the UK. They may or may not succeed, but the remaining EU nations are not going to risk further fragmentation by helping England.
2
The UK will NOT be able to simply "pick and choose" what regulations to change. Those will be predicated on the deal that is negotiated with the EU - and it is highly unlikely that Brussels will simply say, "it's been nice knowing you" and "take the gravy, we'll stay and scrub the pots".
The negotiations will be extremely contentious and terms of the exit will be tough, as the EU will want to discourage further defections.
Yes, let's do compare notes on this calamity three years down the track. My suspicion is that we'll hear crickets when it comes time to defend your argument.
The negotiations will be extremely contentious and terms of the exit will be tough, as the EU will want to discourage further defections.
Yes, let's do compare notes on this calamity three years down the track. My suspicion is that we'll hear crickets when it comes time to defend your argument.
1
I fully blame Merkel for this. Since last year, she has been the undoing of Europe.
60
You should blame Obama. Republicans do.
Germany will be a beneficiary of this as many tech start ups will move to Berlin now. Same is true for the banking sector of course where Frankfurt among other places will benefit. England looses economically to Germany, but that might also be a good thing as more economic sanity and equality will return to regular English working people. This is the punishment for many years of ruthless neoliberalism practiced by the bankers and their crony politicians, the most political fallout of the financila crisis to date. Something similar could happen in the fall if Trump gets elected president, because Hillary is the wrong. candidate to credibly address our economic situation. Bernie would be the one.
12
Dear Mr. Zwahlen,
Could you please advise what the impetus would be for tech start ups and the banking sector to suddenly relocate from Britain to Germany. From my perspective, with less EU regulatory control in Britain, Britain is more likely to be the beneficiaries for those interested in commerce with fewer or at least less exhaustive regulations.
Please tell me what Germany has to offer that Britain does not.
Could you please advise what the impetus would be for tech start ups and the banking sector to suddenly relocate from Britain to Germany. From my perspective, with less EU regulatory control in Britain, Britain is more likely to be the beneficiaries for those interested in commerce with fewer or at least less exhaustive regulations.
Please tell me what Germany has to offer that Britain does not.
1
BREXIT Will be the beginning of a rapid downward plunge of Britain's place in the world, as it has committed a voluntary kamikaze act. The first thing that will happen is that the financial center of Europe is going to shift from London to Brussels or Berlin. Many working in the financial sector will lose their jobs in favor of experts where the financial market will be relocated. The pound has already taken a plunge and will continue to go much lower. If we are very very lucky in the US, the Brexit will not cause a slowing of our economy, or worse push global markets into a sharp recession or depression. Perhaps the next prime minister will see fit to use emergency powers to reverse the Brexit decision as a matter of national defense. I do not expect Scotland, Wales or Ireland to go along with the Brexit. The unemployment rate, especially among youth in Britain will skyrocket, as will the unemployment rate, leading sooner rather than later to lower living standards. The Brits will rue the day that their envy of perceived "gravy trains" in the EU in other nations once the realize that they're missing their very own gravy train in Britain.
25
You sound gleeful to make such a calamitous prediction. Why would that be?
1
I seriously doubt that -- London has been the financial center of Europe (and the world) for many hundreds of years, long before any European Union.
I am a bit shocked you think (or want!) a British Prime Minister to OVERRULE the votes of the entire population, and then force them back into the European Union. That is not democracy. I guess you are arguing for a kind of oligarchy ... run by ... elite lefty liberals. You know, for the people's own GOOD, as they are TOO STUPID to make decisions about their own futures?
I am a bit shocked you think (or want!) a British Prime Minister to OVERRULE the votes of the entire population, and then force them back into the European Union. That is not democracy. I guess you are arguing for a kind of oligarchy ... run by ... elite lefty liberals. You know, for the people's own GOOD, as they are TOO STUPID to make decisions about their own futures?
2
June, 2016. The NYT chooses the word "foolish" to describe direct democracy.
235
Foolish describes the decision not the process. And, yes, political and economic decisions based on emotion is foolishness.
38
It is foolish to imagine that such far reaching, complex implications of such enormity could or even should be decided with a simple in/out referendum. I suspect the UK will become the annoying ex-boyfriend of the EU, previously unaware of all of his dependencies, forever pining to get back together.
5
Democracy may be the preferred form of government but the choices the electorate makes is not necessarily wise.
Case in point, slavery.
Democracies are only as good as the electorate if us composed of. Small minds = stupid democracies.
Case in point, slavery.
Democracies are only as good as the electorate if us composed of. Small minds = stupid democracies.
Odd how so much angst is directed at Britian and its leadership for this result, and not a word said about where all of this rot starts, Basil Switzerland, and the Bank of International Settlements. Those gangsters that normally run the table.
29
Yes, a miscalculation by the Prime Minister.
He misjudged the anger at among other things "immigration" -- a term our President has appropriated to indicate those born elsewhere flooding in and changing our society. Of course those who immigrate add to a country, add, but the term means "permanently move and become a part of". while "emigrate" indicate leaving one's country, but keeping one's mores and society, which is really the case.
The brutal killers who have appropriated the Muslim religion and want to make the religion a country have driven out their own people. Those fleeing don't want to be "British".
Let's hope the referendum and the PM's resignation are taken as a wake up call both in the UK and Belgium.
He misjudged the anger at among other things "immigration" -- a term our President has appropriated to indicate those born elsewhere flooding in and changing our society. Of course those who immigrate add to a country, add, but the term means "permanently move and become a part of". while "emigrate" indicate leaving one's country, but keeping one's mores and society, which is really the case.
The brutal killers who have appropriated the Muslim religion and want to make the religion a country have driven out their own people. Those fleeing don't want to be "British".
Let's hope the referendum and the PM's resignation are taken as a wake up call both in the UK and Belgium.
22
united we shall fall, divided we shall be strong.
3
... Said no one
Let's acknowledge rough reality, or be disingenuous:
This is populism,. which includes economic fears of immigrants, racism & xenophobia.
It is frightening, because advantage goes DJT.
It changes reality: the British folks are angry.
Boris Johnson could well become the next prime minister, so allegedly the blond mop combed some.
We are seeing ... people power, and it ain't so wonderfully pretty, because the west's political-financial systems are "semi destabilized," things of western civilization are unhappily not copacetic.
Are the French & the Dutch next?
This is populism,. which includes economic fears of immigrants, racism & xenophobia.
It is frightening, because advantage goes DJT.
It changes reality: the British folks are angry.
Boris Johnson could well become the next prime minister, so allegedly the blond mop combed some.
We are seeing ... people power, and it ain't so wonderfully pretty, because the west's political-financial systems are "semi destabilized," things of western civilization are unhappily not copacetic.
Are the French & the Dutch next?
14
The voice of the people is the voice of God. NOT.
7
It is difficult with Brexit to separate the musings of pundits, with the cold, economic implications of this move. But the decision, its implications and the forces that shaped it are troubling, for the following reasons:
(1) The appear to not be grounded in economic reality, not withstanding flaws in the EU; (2) They are motivated by racism and anti-immigration sentiment;
(3) They reflect an almost freakish alignment of right/nationalist forces with the Left- though not all on the Left in Great Britain agreed with the move, notably Jerry Corbin; (4) They illustrate how difficult it is for the "masses" to grasp and tackle complex economic relationships and intertwining.
Item (3) is particularly troublesome. While the actions of the reactionary Right are predictable- routed in nationalism, the inspiration of hate and the need to consolidate power- even at the cost of economic prosperity- the Left is harder to explain. The EU has not done a bad job regarding worker's rights, environmental protection across the continent and economic and political stability. Great Britain has decided to throw this away- turning away from economic reality and bathing in reactionary politics. They showed them...undermining their collective selves in the process. Letting the perfect be the enemy of good.
(1) The appear to not be grounded in economic reality, not withstanding flaws in the EU; (2) They are motivated by racism and anti-immigration sentiment;
(3) They reflect an almost freakish alignment of right/nationalist forces with the Left- though not all on the Left in Great Britain agreed with the move, notably Jerry Corbin; (4) They illustrate how difficult it is for the "masses" to grasp and tackle complex economic relationships and intertwining.
Item (3) is particularly troublesome. While the actions of the reactionary Right are predictable- routed in nationalism, the inspiration of hate and the need to consolidate power- even at the cost of economic prosperity- the Left is harder to explain. The EU has not done a bad job regarding worker's rights, environmental protection across the continent and economic and political stability. Great Britain has decided to throw this away- turning away from economic reality and bathing in reactionary politics. They showed them...undermining their collective selves in the process. Letting the perfect be the enemy of good.
29
Whenever EU issues go to the public by referendum, they have a tendency to get shot down. Denmark is not on the euro because the Danish government put that one to a vote in 2000. A common currency, fluid borders, ethnic diversity and restrained nationalism are all hallmarks of the financial, business and political elite. The problem with elites everywhere is that they forget how out of touch they are with the population at large. They learn that soon enough whenever they do in fact put important questions to the popular vote.
143
The Danish army was formed in mass blocking a bridge connecting Germany to Denmark during WWII when one German Army Major drove up in an open Volkswagen with a couple of truckloads of German soldiers and demanded that Denmark surrender of the Danish army to Germany.
The Danes indignantly refused, so the German Officer pulled out his pistol and shot (and killed) one Danish soldier. The rest of the Danish Army then quickly threw down their weapons and surrendered to that German Major.
Denmark then agreed to comply with all of the German demands. The total German conquest of Denmark took all of 6 hours.
Sweden was neutral during WWII, but continued to supply Germany with Iron ore and other things to support the German war effort, at a profit, to prevent German conquest of Sweden which might have damaged Swedish industries.
England and Finland are maybe the only exceptions compared the other European nations who just emulated France and surrendered to and then supported the German War machine by selling their food, fuel, machinery, technology, and sexual services to the Germans.
The Danes indignantly refused, so the German Officer pulled out his pistol and shot (and killed) one Danish soldier. The rest of the Danish Army then quickly threw down their weapons and surrendered to that German Major.
Denmark then agreed to comply with all of the German demands. The total German conquest of Denmark took all of 6 hours.
Sweden was neutral during WWII, but continued to supply Germany with Iron ore and other things to support the German war effort, at a profit, to prevent German conquest of Sweden which might have damaged Swedish industries.
England and Finland are maybe the only exceptions compared the other European nations who just emulated France and surrendered to and then supported the German War machine by selling their food, fuel, machinery, technology, and sexual services to the Germans.
4
We may see a different outcome than getting shot down when the Scottish people get their next referendum.
1
And a common currency without a common government, witness Greece, is unworkable. Luckily the Brits never signed on for that, so this "calamity" is not that earthshaking after all.
All of the "Stay" arguments involved economics. All of the "Leave" arguments involved the sovereignty of the British nation, culture, and immigration. When it comes to self-decision and culture, people vote from their hearts, not from their wallets. If the "Stay" leaders wanted to win this referendum, they should have explained why staying in the EU was important to the sovereignty, culture and history of the UK. Ultimately, they couldn't make that argument because there were no compelling reasons to stay in the EU except economic reasons.
In the US we hear economic arguments about cultural issues such as marijuana, immigration, health care and education. The UK vote should be a warning to those who advocate on cultural issues using economic-based rationale. Don't bring a knife to a gun-fight.
In the US we hear economic arguments about cultural issues such as marijuana, immigration, health care and education. The UK vote should be a warning to those who advocate on cultural issues using economic-based rationale. Don't bring a knife to a gun-fight.
219
Economic strength is not important to a country?
16
I don't think Bahjr is asserting that. I think he's saying people are too stupid to vote based on a rational, intellect-driven argument. Rather, people are moved to vote according to what fear button has been successfully pushed or what anger chain jerked by clever political advertising. Unfortunately his claim is accurate for a large part of the population. The question for the U.S. election is how large and where are they located in terms of the Electoral College.
1
The cultural argument for staying is the value and benefit of pluralistic society. In America, the land of immigrants, we have (mostly) valued and have been proud of being a cultural melting pot; Britain could have embraced the same values. But instead, their economic woes were blamed on the brown ones, the ones with unfamiliar religious ceremony, exotic dress, and strange-smelling food. Once one abandons the cultural values of tolerance and diversity, it is a terribly slippery slope to societies divided like those in the Middle East. Intolerance leads to anti-immigrant hatred, violence, and ultimately, if intolerance gets completely out of control, war, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Europe has experience with war, ethnic cleansing and genocide in the not too distant past; it is shocking that with this vote they seem to have already forgotten what the European Union stood for in positive cultural terms of peaceful tolerance and pluralistic society.
2
Cameron rolled the dice for his own purposes and lost - but in doing so he took the country with him. There is a lesson for the US about leadership to consider for those who would choose someone who can only trust an echo chamber for advice.
310
Yours is the most profound comment here.
What started as political ambitions for Cameron ended in disaster for Britons.
Don't let Trump drive us off of the cliff - Trump cares about Trump and will say anything to that end. That's not leadership and has already taken us to very racist and divisive places. It could get much, much uglier if he were awarded the presidency by voters.
What started as political ambitions for Cameron ended in disaster for Britons.
Don't let Trump drive us off of the cliff - Trump cares about Trump and will say anything to that end. That's not leadership and has already taken us to very racist and divisive places. It could get much, much uglier if he were awarded the presidency by voters.
2
A giant leap back for the British!
The world is facing so many challenges which can only be managed by all humans coming together in the next 20 years:
1) Sea level rise in the next 25 years displacing perhaps a billion people
2) Extreme weather, droughts and floods causing dislocation and untold $billions in damage to paid out of our taxes.
3) Religious and Rightist fundamentalism which believes that a great leap back into a world that doesnt exist, will provide answers and hegomony for the dissatisfied.
4) A lack of understanding of how technology is changing the world's job market. Most jobs can be "robotized" and a few skilled workers will be able to satisfy all essential human needs. Yesterworld's jobs dont now exist and cannot be brought back!
5) So much information is available now in the connected world, that the unscrupulous can attempt bring about a change "back" by misinterpretations and outright lies.
The Brexit result is a testament to how ill-adapted the British education system is to producing citizens who understand the challenges of tomorrow. Similar "cries" of frustration are being heard in all Industrialized societies around the world, where hankering for past glories will destroy the future for all humans.
The world is facing so many challenges which can only be managed by all humans coming together in the next 20 years:
1) Sea level rise in the next 25 years displacing perhaps a billion people
2) Extreme weather, droughts and floods causing dislocation and untold $billions in damage to paid out of our taxes.
3) Religious and Rightist fundamentalism which believes that a great leap back into a world that doesnt exist, will provide answers and hegomony for the dissatisfied.
4) A lack of understanding of how technology is changing the world's job market. Most jobs can be "robotized" and a few skilled workers will be able to satisfy all essential human needs. Yesterworld's jobs dont now exist and cannot be brought back!
5) So much information is available now in the connected world, that the unscrupulous can attempt bring about a change "back" by misinterpretations and outright lies.
The Brexit result is a testament to how ill-adapted the British education system is to producing citizens who understand the challenges of tomorrow. Similar "cries" of frustration are being heard in all Industrialized societies around the world, where hankering for past glories will destroy the future for all humans.
208
You are correct on a number of points, until the last assumption. The British education system is the envy/model of much of the world. Britain has a very high social acceptance of scientific secular thought. Religion has no place in politics. UK is a island, with limited space and population and cost of living there, like many island nations is at a breakpoint. Control of your own growth/fate was accepted.
1
I do think there were some good reasons Brits voted for the Brexit, but I mostly agree with you. I would argue that our education system is similarly "ill-adapted" to the modern world. That someone like Donald Trump can get as far as he has does not bode well for our future, even if he doesn't win the presidency. We will pay dearly for our shameful education system.
1
Sadly, you miss the point. The young in England were in favor of staying. The problem wan not their education.
It was the older people who did not have the education "to understand the the challenges of tomorrow." They were too busy over the last few decades facing the overwhelming "challenges of today" in their everyday lives.
The major reason for Brexit (and for the Trump successes in the USA) has been that the elites have not bothered to spend any effort to really help them with those challenges, except maybe to play on their fears for political benefit. Until Sanders in the USA, the problem was seldom even looked at. It was dismissed and proposed solutions considered too outlandish to seriously consider. The struggling workers, skills now virtually worthless, were just expected to quietly take it.
Well, in Britain those folks have decided they will try what was the only "solution" they saw available, not caring it had a limited chance of success. To keep going as they were would lead only to more misery. Having nothing to lose, they had the freedom to try.
In the U.S., we have until November to show our folks we can implement steps to help them in overcome what many of them see as a mortal danger to their families and productive way of life. Otherwise, too many will also feel they have nothing to lose and President Trump will make Brexit look like a walk in the park.
It was the older people who did not have the education "to understand the the challenges of tomorrow." They were too busy over the last few decades facing the overwhelming "challenges of today" in their everyday lives.
The major reason for Brexit (and for the Trump successes in the USA) has been that the elites have not bothered to spend any effort to really help them with those challenges, except maybe to play on their fears for political benefit. Until Sanders in the USA, the problem was seldom even looked at. It was dismissed and proposed solutions considered too outlandish to seriously consider. The struggling workers, skills now virtually worthless, were just expected to quietly take it.
Well, in Britain those folks have decided they will try what was the only "solution" they saw available, not caring it had a limited chance of success. To keep going as they were would lead only to more misery. Having nothing to lose, they had the freedom to try.
In the U.S., we have until November to show our folks we can implement steps to help them in overcome what many of them see as a mortal danger to their families and productive way of life. Otherwise, too many will also feel they have nothing to lose and President Trump will make Brexit look like a walk in the park.
3
I have never felt ashamed to be a British citizen, until today
139
Do you want to give a reason why?
I have never felt prouder, as we vote for democracy over short term economic comfort
I have never felt prouder, as we vote for democracy over short term economic comfort
2
Paul,
Cheer up.
Britain retains control over their economy and nation.
If you are that ashamed, stay in the US or move to Europe.
Cheer up.
Britain retains control over their economy and nation.
If you are that ashamed, stay in the US or move to Europe.
2
What is it, that you feel half of the British citizens that voted to leave the EU have to be ashamed of? Completely unclear.
2
What a sad day. Too little attention has been paid to the average fellow who feels marginalized by the powerful. This situation is the result of greed by the "one percenters" who make deals to serve themselves and then whip up anger and resentment among the "average joes" to distract them from the true source of unfairness they experience. It is time for public stewardship to replace the greed and corruption that instigated the backlash this vote represents. Pay attention, politicians, it is not enough to keep asking for campaign dollars and our votes, only to turn your backs on the core concerns of ordinary people. Gun safety, economic security, affordable health care, protecting our climate, these are the issues that need to be addressed, yet the media and the politicians feed the average folks a steady dose of fear and anger, turning various groups against each other.
52
President Obama could have said, "Once you were employed and were able to feed your family, so I created a bunch of multiple new Free Trade Agreements with South Korea, Vietnam, Brunei, Singapore, Malaysia, New Zealand, Australia, Chile, and Peru plus several other Asian and South American nations and this caused your manufacturing jobs to relocate to these third world nations because you would not agree to work for the same wages that citizens in these third world nations would work for."
If you think that all of Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama’s existing Free Trade Agreements (FTAs), Most Favored Nation (MFNs) trade statuses, and Permanent Normal Trade Relation (PNTRs) trade statuses with third world nations that these gentlemen granted (as their “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTORS directed them to do) to third world nations were destructive for US middle class wages and manufacturing employment, relocating middle class US jobs to foreign nations, and LOWERING THE MIDDLE CLASS PAY scale, and eliminated benefits for middle class US workers, then you had better hold onto YOUR HAT for when President Obama's PPT Pacific Rim Treaty to comes into effect to relocate middle class US jobs to third world nations on an unlimited multi-nation WHOLESALE every possible product basis.
President Obama’s creation of his TPP will be like President Clinton’s NAFTA for Mexico and President Clinton’s PNTR for Communist China, except on a much larger scope.
If you think that all of Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama’s existing Free Trade Agreements (FTAs), Most Favored Nation (MFNs) trade statuses, and Permanent Normal Trade Relation (PNTRs) trade statuses with third world nations that these gentlemen granted (as their “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTORS directed them to do) to third world nations were destructive for US middle class wages and manufacturing employment, relocating middle class US jobs to foreign nations, and LOWERING THE MIDDLE CLASS PAY scale, and eliminated benefits for middle class US workers, then you had better hold onto YOUR HAT for when President Obama's PPT Pacific Rim Treaty to comes into effect to relocate middle class US jobs to third world nations on an unlimited multi-nation WHOLESALE every possible product basis.
President Obama’s creation of his TPP will be like President Clinton’s NAFTA for Mexico and President Clinton’s PNTR for Communist China, except on a much larger scope.
2
Your editorial board needs to go and lie down in a dark room for a while. The United States would never sign up for the loss of sovereignty that the EU demands and, in fact, Britain never did sign up for it. When I voted in the referendum in the 1970s, I voted to join a trading block, not an imperial block where unelected Eurocrats dictated aspects of my life up to, and including, what I could eat. The vote has little to do with racism as you try to pretend, or any other "ism", it is about Freedom. Something, which I regret to say, your newspaper seems to value less with each passing piece of idiocy such as the one I have just read. Charles Langley
213
On the contrary, it has everything to do with xenophobia. As polls showed, opposition to multiculturalism and immigration played a slightly larger role than opposition to globalism in the "Leave" vote. It's also no surprise that whites were more likely to vote for Brexit than POCs.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-gra...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-gra...
3
I would have voted Remain, but I do understand the folks who voted Leave, and you make a very valid point. The EU should have long ago lightened its touch.
1
Are you sure the US wouldn't enter into such an agreement?
Just what do you think TTIP and TPP are? They are the not-quite-so-thin-end-of-the-wedge meant to break us down so we would give in to try to get some relief.
Just what do you think TTIP and TPP are? They are the not-quite-so-thin-end-of-the-wedge meant to break us down so we would give in to try to get some relief.
It is a depressing, dispiriting day here in the UK. For now we have a much larger example of how a butterfly flapping its wings in the jungle affects the entire planet:
George W Bush stirred the pot by illegallyl invading Iraq, which begat the domino effect of years of war, which begat the tragic meltdown of Syria, which begat the migration crisis westwards through Turkey into Greece and the rest of Europe, which spooked the at-heart xenophobics and racists here in the UK to demand an in-or-out referendum on the EU, an imperfect organisation that nonetheless fostered cooperation instead of war.
Yes, we who read history are angry and frustrated.
George W Bush stirred the pot by illegallyl invading Iraq, which begat the domino effect of years of war, which begat the tragic meltdown of Syria, which begat the migration crisis westwards through Turkey into Greece and the rest of Europe, which spooked the at-heart xenophobics and racists here in the UK to demand an in-or-out referendum on the EU, an imperfect organisation that nonetheless fostered cooperation instead of war.
Yes, we who read history are angry and frustrated.
303
No, those who can properly read history know that its stories have sadly been written over and over again for quite some time now. In suggesting this butterfly-flapping began with the US invasion of Iraq, one may as well refer to the way the Brits (and French) arbitrarily carved up the erstwhile Ottoman Empire, or cite the tale of discord unleashed when Isaac favored Jacob over Esau or, for that matter, take the origin story of Adam and Eve as gospel.
The Realpolitik of actual experience, however, teaches otherwise. At its heart, since even before the EEC, the ideology driving the EU has always served commercial interests of the financial elites, however lofty its mission may have been cloaked in peace-keeping rhetoric. Its supposed hopes for political union in a small, intensely tribal corner of the world constituted vain, fatuous attempts uncannily in keeping with one of its historical predecessors. That is, much as the "Holy"-"Roman"-"Empire" was none of the above, so too the "European"-"Union" has never been either, either. Ultimately, both pursued a preferential framework for limiting local control and did or, in this latest incarnation, will succumb to fragmentation.
Please check your anger and frustration, then, and use that energy to construct an understanding that advances human events, rather than one that continually repeats them.
The Realpolitik of actual experience, however, teaches otherwise. At its heart, since even before the EEC, the ideology driving the EU has always served commercial interests of the financial elites, however lofty its mission may have been cloaked in peace-keeping rhetoric. Its supposed hopes for political union in a small, intensely tribal corner of the world constituted vain, fatuous attempts uncannily in keeping with one of its historical predecessors. That is, much as the "Holy"-"Roman"-"Empire" was none of the above, so too the "European"-"Union" has never been either, either. Ultimately, both pursued a preferential framework for limiting local control and did or, in this latest incarnation, will succumb to fragmentation.
Please check your anger and frustration, then, and use that energy to construct an understanding that advances human events, rather than one that continually repeats them.
2
@voelteer
Except that the artificial construct of Iraq was relatively stable until the invasion of 2003.
Except that the artificial construct of Iraq was relatively stable until the invasion of 2003.
1
This referendum was not about immigration, it was about sovereignty
"Britain concluded that a gamble on a dangerous unknown" an dangerous unknown, Britain is a country that has been in existance for 1000's of years their country is older than America. I am sure the Brits can figure it out.
Perhaps it is time for another American revolution, perhaps it is time for Trump, and to vote out of office every elected official in congress. Lets start anew.
Perhaps it is time for another American revolution, perhaps it is time for Trump, and to vote out of office every elected official in congress. Lets start anew.
16
Britain has been *inhabited* for thousands of years, but as a nation Great Britain dates back to 1603, and the United Kingdom to 1800. The United States is older than the United Kingdom.
4
Let's start anew herbie? With Trump as the "leader" of the anew initiative all one has to do is look at Atlantic City to see evidence of what that anew will get you.
3
Donald Trump said today that he hoped Americans were watching the results of today's vote. I hope they're watching too, as they see a great economy go down in flames for making the same kinds of policy choices Trump is advocating for the U.S.
40
...If I were the Soviet Union in the midst of the cold war I would do my utmost to sew discord in Europe by despoiling the Middle East, sending millions of displaced persons northward. As the Soviets know all to well, this is guaranteed to rile white Europeans. And given the EUs lax laws on crossing boarders it is the silver bullet to disrupt and bring to its knees the greatest European experiment in peace and prosperity since...WWII.
The Soviets will play to generational petty prejudices. It's so easy to sew dislike of the swarthy and dark skinned who speak broken English, are poor and needy --'those people'-- than guage the economic and spiritual consequences of denying your humanity. What century are the Brits hearkening back to?
Illusion and prejudice are the new avian flu. Taking wing at the slightest provocation to your comfortable bungalow lives, it runs rampant through Europe and the US. According to the polls, older voters, white, concerned about the threat of displaced migrants--'those people'-- are its first victims. Its DNA is myopia, bigotry, ugliness towards those in need. It is endemic--a plague that crosses boarders and centuries, lodging where it can do the most harm.
So which historical farce will you play out, Britain? Will the Soviets win out? A reverse Dunkirk? A Napoleon win at Waterloo? And when you are brought to your knees and survey the damage you have done to all of us who believed in you, who will you blame?...
The Soviets will play to generational petty prejudices. It's so easy to sew dislike of the swarthy and dark skinned who speak broken English, are poor and needy --'those people'-- than guage the economic and spiritual consequences of denying your humanity. What century are the Brits hearkening back to?
Illusion and prejudice are the new avian flu. Taking wing at the slightest provocation to your comfortable bungalow lives, it runs rampant through Europe and the US. According to the polls, older voters, white, concerned about the threat of displaced migrants--'those people'-- are its first victims. Its DNA is myopia, bigotry, ugliness towards those in need. It is endemic--a plague that crosses boarders and centuries, lodging where it can do the most harm.
So which historical farce will you play out, Britain? Will the Soviets win out? A reverse Dunkirk? A Napoleon win at Waterloo? And when you are brought to your knees and survey the damage you have done to all of us who believed in you, who will you blame?...
11
Republicans and Democrats, the election of Donald Trump as president suddenly seems more possible. You both better get your act together, or you will find your party and the nation in very uncharted waters. You gonna take that chance???
30
Trump will not be elected with a unfavorable rating of 70%.....
It is plainly disingenuous to say that Leave voters are a monolithic group "eerily similar" to Trump supporters in the USA. Equally, the supposition that the Leave campaign was driven primarily by xenophobia is simply a convenient dismissal by others who fear similar outcomes elsewhere, and who desperately want an easy (and condescending) pigeonhole in order to paper over legitimate grievances. Plainly and simply, a lot of very intelligent people in one of the most stable, august, and powerful countries on earth decided that they needed to disentangle their country's foot from the fast and uncontrolled outspooling of anchor chain on the deck of the listing ship called Europe. This vote was about Europe's massive missteps and profligacy over the past decades, not about British jingoism. Europe should be shuddering today. Britain acted out of strength, not weakness.
193
I wanted to type my own response, but it would be a poor imitation of yours. The NY Times and other opinion shapers have made the leap that democracy equals populism which equals nationalism which equals fascism. This kind of newspeak from our elites should tell us plenty.
1
Absolutely correct, thank you Paul for making a fair assessment.
Americans would not think twice about voting for democracy - it's part of your 'creation story' as a country - so why shouldn't the British?
Americans would not think twice about voting for democracy - it's part of your 'creation story' as a country - so why shouldn't the British?
Profligacy? You mean the world capital of post-2008 austerity?
Really?
Really?
2
Desperate people do desperate things. The "Brexit" may not be right, or smart, or well thought through, but it is an example of people exerting control where they can. Establishment, you have been put on notice. I pray you will pay attention. Especially Hillary Clinton. The next rejection of the smug, business-as-usual status-qou could end with a "shock results, hello president Trump" headline. Work for the people and serve the public, it is a privilege.
428
Agreed. A privilege that should not be traded on to collect exorbitant fees for speeches. Here's hoping for more class and decorum post-office from Obama.
1
When will desperate people start learning to do SMART things rather than desperate dumb things?!
In the US, the poorly educated and disenfranchised have been reliably banding together, uniting and voting... for the policies and people that do them the most harm - for over 35 years now. The world has watched in fascinated horror while the neediest have fallen for Rage and Fear messaging, delivered by the machinery of a plutocratic oligarchy that truly hates them - even as those same disadvantaged citizens jeer at and demonize the very people who are doing far more to ensure a decent future for them.
Trump is only the latest and most pathetically obvious variant in this toxic mixture. This man who wants to shrink American wages and benefits, while increasing the already incredibly long working hours of Americans, a man who has never done an honest common man's day of work in his life - who stiffs the "common man" vendors and contractors who work for his companies... he alone is seen as the savior of the jobs, labor, and opportunities of the common working American. He is seen as "getting it." What utterly tragic folly!
I guess Brexit just proves that suicidal folly at the level of self- immolation, is not just an American thing. Now, reality is already setting in. Maybe the US will watch and learn what the brutal reality of "buyer's remorse" looks like. This might be us come November.
In the US, the poorly educated and disenfranchised have been reliably banding together, uniting and voting... for the policies and people that do them the most harm - for over 35 years now. The world has watched in fascinated horror while the neediest have fallen for Rage and Fear messaging, delivered by the machinery of a plutocratic oligarchy that truly hates them - even as those same disadvantaged citizens jeer at and demonize the very people who are doing far more to ensure a decent future for them.
Trump is only the latest and most pathetically obvious variant in this toxic mixture. This man who wants to shrink American wages and benefits, while increasing the already incredibly long working hours of Americans, a man who has never done an honest common man's day of work in his life - who stiffs the "common man" vendors and contractors who work for his companies... he alone is seen as the savior of the jobs, labor, and opportunities of the common working American. He is seen as "getting it." What utterly tragic folly!
I guess Brexit just proves that suicidal folly at the level of self- immolation, is not just an American thing. Now, reality is already setting in. Maybe the US will watch and learn what the brutal reality of "buyer's remorse" looks like. This might be us come November.
7
Exorbitant, eh? Trump charges as much as $1,500,000 PER SPEECH, and he's been considering a presidential run for years now. But we'll never know to whom he spoke, because he refuses to release any tax returns. Decades of Clinton's returns are posfed online for public viewing. And her"exorbitant" fees are actually lower than those of many male politicians who have given speeches between their political gigs. No one criticized them for it.
So it's a given must be selling influence, because how could a woman be worth that much, even one of the most admired and accomplished women in the world? Impossible! And we just know male candidates are running to save the country, while Clinton is simply an ambitious and greedy self-dealer. Her long actual record of helping the disadvantaged must all be window dressing,
I know people will claim it's Clinton herself who's the problem. But I think the real problem is a pervasive, deep-seated hostility and fear of a real older woman holding real power, independent of any man. It may not be conscious, but both Bernie and the Republicans are playing on that fear, encouraging us to interpret all of Hillary Clinton's words, deeds and history in the worst possjible light. And we are open to it, as we once were open to tales of wicked witches and evil stepmothers. Look at her again, as a full human, not a malignant archetype.
http://qz.com/441327/yes-hillary-clintons-speaking-fees-are-high-but-onl...
So it's a given must be selling influence, because how could a woman be worth that much, even one of the most admired and accomplished women in the world? Impossible! And we just know male candidates are running to save the country, while Clinton is simply an ambitious and greedy self-dealer. Her long actual record of helping the disadvantaged must all be window dressing,
I know people will claim it's Clinton herself who's the problem. But I think the real problem is a pervasive, deep-seated hostility and fear of a real older woman holding real power, independent of any man. It may not be conscious, but both Bernie and the Republicans are playing on that fear, encouraging us to interpret all of Hillary Clinton's words, deeds and history in the worst possjible light. And we are open to it, as we once were open to tales of wicked witches and evil stepmothers. Look at her again, as a full human, not a malignant archetype.
http://qz.com/441327/yes-hillary-clintons-speaking-fees-are-high-but-onl...
5
The Editors of the Times and the rest of the MSM work for the 1% and the Corporations and Governments that support them.
Your ideas are quit simple: The most important thing in the Universe is the wealth and perceived self interest of the Rich. The EU is Government of the Rich, for the Rich and by the Rich so it must be a good thing, and the Brits who wanted to have control of their own Country must be ignorant peasant luddites who don't have the good sense to follow their masters wishes.
I'm glad the Brits took their country back from the Bankers and the other servants of the Rich and only wish we could do it here.
Unfortunately, the Times choice for President, Hillary Clinton is going to win over that fool Trump and we will have at lease 4 more years of rule for the Rich in this Country.
Your ideas are quit simple: The most important thing in the Universe is the wealth and perceived self interest of the Rich. The EU is Government of the Rich, for the Rich and by the Rich so it must be a good thing, and the Brits who wanted to have control of their own Country must be ignorant peasant luddites who don't have the good sense to follow their masters wishes.
I'm glad the Brits took their country back from the Bankers and the other servants of the Rich and only wish we could do it here.
Unfortunately, the Times choice for President, Hillary Clinton is going to win over that fool Trump and we will have at lease 4 more years of rule for the Rich in this Country.
63
I would argue that while globalization in general, which seems to be what you are protesting, does hurt some segments of society, it helps way more than "the 1%". That is hyperbole. The truth is much more complicated, and while much should be done to regulate how globalization affects the poor, we should not lose sight of how much it helps the poor as well.
5
Trump rejoiced in Scotland from his luxury resort. A Moody's study had said that his trade war policies would cause a recession in the US his first year in office and would cost millions of American jobs.
Taking the country back to when? For England, perhaps to before Scotland and the UK. For the US, back to the 19th century to an isolationist time before the US was a superpower?
Globalism may be an evil to some people, but it exists and must be dealt with. This is not the 19th or the 18th century. We are interconnected through online and other communication, fast transportation, and trade. Losing huge trade markets is no small loss. Retreating to your own shores is no longer possible.
Some isolated communities do fine such as the Amish, and isolated countries like North Korea close out the outside world as best they can but the advances of civilization and technology are denied to them. That includes medicine, science, industry, trade, and alliances.
This is a sad day, and I wish Britain well. But it is also a lesson to America to not let a fascist bigot like Trump use anger, fear, hatred and a desire to fall back into a past that never existed to deny basic American values of equality and hope for the future. Every American that actually cares about the country, its foundational principles, its leadership role and responsibilities, and its stability needs to vote for Hillary Clinton in November.
Taking the country back to when? For England, perhaps to before Scotland and the UK. For the US, back to the 19th century to an isolationist time before the US was a superpower?
Globalism may be an evil to some people, but it exists and must be dealt with. This is not the 19th or the 18th century. We are interconnected through online and other communication, fast transportation, and trade. Losing huge trade markets is no small loss. Retreating to your own shores is no longer possible.
Some isolated communities do fine such as the Amish, and isolated countries like North Korea close out the outside world as best they can but the advances of civilization and technology are denied to them. That includes medicine, science, industry, trade, and alliances.
This is a sad day, and I wish Britain well. But it is also a lesson to America to not let a fascist bigot like Trump use anger, fear, hatred and a desire to fall back into a past that never existed to deny basic American values of equality and hope for the future. Every American that actually cares about the country, its foundational principles, its leadership role and responsibilities, and its stability needs to vote for Hillary Clinton in November.
472
Yes, we are interconnected. And yes, Donald Trump would be an unmitigated moral and economic disaster for this country and the world But until our elite understands that we peasants are not a fungible commodity, the fire will grow, until it consumes them. Sadly, the more vulnerable among us will get burned in the process.
5
There is a distinction between global trade, which people have engaged in at least since the 15th century, and corporate globalization, which is a rigged system in which banks and corporations make the rules that every person on this planet must obey.
The rules the banks and corporations pay their lackeys in government to enact put every human being on this planet entirely at the mercy of financial behemoths whose business plan is theft and whose only purpose is to own everything.
"Trade" is a good thing, as is global trade. But so-called "free-trade" isn't even trade. It is a set of arrangements according to which transnational investors can do anything they want to whomever and whatever they want, always walk away with all of the spoils, and can never lose because you and I are obligated to cover their bets when they guess wrong or need an unlimited line of credit to commit their crimes.
Global neoliberalism is a doomed arrangement. Today is the first blow it has earned by its utter contempt for the human race, and many more will follow.
The rules the banks and corporations pay their lackeys in government to enact put every human being on this planet entirely at the mercy of financial behemoths whose business plan is theft and whose only purpose is to own everything.
"Trade" is a good thing, as is global trade. But so-called "free-trade" isn't even trade. It is a set of arrangements according to which transnational investors can do anything they want to whomever and whatever they want, always walk away with all of the spoils, and can never lose because you and I are obligated to cover their bets when they guess wrong or need an unlimited line of credit to commit their crimes.
Global neoliberalism is a doomed arrangement. Today is the first blow it has earned by its utter contempt for the human race, and many more will follow.
6
FYI: Those "trade" deals, like NAFTA brought to us by the Clinton's and TPP and TIPP do almost nothing to help trade where the tariffs have been very low for decades. Those deals are about protecting intellectual property (so drug companies can gouge poor nations) and Investor State Dispute Settlements (so huge corporations can sue sovereign nations when the feel their obscene profits are at risk). Do some research. Hillary Clinton's presidency will only exacerbate these problems. The whole world is getting angrier and angrier that the wealthy are hoarding all the wealth.
1
The blame for this rests squarely and completely upon the shoulders of PM Cameron. There was no reason to have gambled as he did .. . that said, let's be pragmatic. The doom and gloom scenarios projected by campaigners is unlikely to come to pass. The sun shall still rise each and every morning, and it shall, of course, still rain buckets during the summer in the UK (as it always does)...ps
13
Labour under Corbyn could have swung this the other way. He didn't try and bears some responsibility. As does Angela Merkel for the intransigence of her positions on the response to 2008 and her naïve open armed welcome of refugees into the EU.
1
I hope the Times and others will try to quell the panic that is building over the Brexit vote. I think the most important thing everyone should bear in mind is that absolutely nothing will happen for several years. The situation requires monitoring and evaluation over time, rather than the knee-jerk reaction the European financial markets and others have provided.
13
The uncertainty is happening now. And unfortunately, that is all it takes.
2
well now, Pryden can be itself again, insular. have them reclaim the fishing
rights to their coastal shelf so foolishly signed away in, was it, 1983?
with that they feed themselves and have plenty to sell to Europe on
Friday. cf., Luke Kelly singing, "Shoals of Herring".
rights to their coastal shelf so foolishly signed away in, was it, 1983?
with that they feed themselves and have plenty to sell to Europe on
Friday. cf., Luke Kelly singing, "Shoals of Herring".
3
This is way overwrought, more symbolism than substance. This doesn't really change much of anything. Before the EU common market there was, well, the European market, which remains and will function, with perhaps a bit more friction than before, but maybe it needed a bit more friction after all.
The EU, and particularly the ECB, is a vastly flawed attempt at an economic union without political unity. Britain saw its flaws from the beginning and only barely acquiesced to involvement. Now it has left altogether. Big whoop.
The EU, and particularly the ECB, is a vastly flawed attempt at an economic union without political unity. Britain saw its flaws from the beginning and only barely acquiesced to involvement. Now it has left altogether. Big whoop.
22
Though I was a Remain guy I understand how this happened just as I understand how the Sanders campaign caught fire and, to a much lesser degree, the attraction of Drumpf.
You see, the common thread here is the instinctive reaction among the middle class to being shafted by big corporate interests for the last, say, 30 years or so.
After all, those corporate interests were probably the biggest beneficiaries of both the formation of the EU and its predecessor the EEC as well as the post Cold War GATT and WTO trade regimes.
Despite being given these gifts (or having "bought" them for themselves) it wasn't good enough for them and, as is their wont, overplayed their hand by pushing for even greater ease in shifting around both financial and human capital. "Free" trade, with even odious regimes, became an end in itself. To question its advance invited withering opprobrium for reasons never made entirely clear.
So, though this was the "wrong" reaction IMO, it didn't happen in a vacuum.
You see, the common thread here is the instinctive reaction among the middle class to being shafted by big corporate interests for the last, say, 30 years or so.
After all, those corporate interests were probably the biggest beneficiaries of both the formation of the EU and its predecessor the EEC as well as the post Cold War GATT and WTO trade regimes.
Despite being given these gifts (or having "bought" them for themselves) it wasn't good enough for them and, as is their wont, overplayed their hand by pushing for even greater ease in shifting around both financial and human capital. "Free" trade, with even odious regimes, became an end in itself. To question its advance invited withering opprobrium for reasons never made entirely clear.
So, though this was the "wrong" reaction IMO, it didn't happen in a vacuum.
513
Thanks for that "shades of gray" analysis. The trade agreements are not evil, but neither are they all good. There is a reasonable balance between isolationism and pure free trade, and the argument should be where that line is drawn. Simplistic nostrums, a la Trump, or Exxon, are foolhardy, as are notions that we should either build a wall or open immigration to everyone.
3
@Ned
Yes, I certainly am not anti-trade. As a matter of fact, I am one of the few liberals who feel we actually didn't do enough for NAFTA and Mexico. Our corporate sector basically sold them down the river in favor of China. That, in turn, played a big role in illegal immigration from south of our border from the mid 90s to 2009.
Yes, I certainly am not anti-trade. As a matter of fact, I am one of the few liberals who feel we actually didn't do enough for NAFTA and Mexico. Our corporate sector basically sold them down the river in favor of China. That, in turn, played a big role in illegal immigration from south of our border from the mid 90s to 2009.
2
Actually, most of it was due to Cameron's austerity policies. Yet somehow he was reelected.
The Brexit vote is a repudiation of the internationalist, neo-liberal, corporatist polices the New York Times stands for.
252
NYT editorial page only believes in one kind of government - Big.
52
Not just big, but controlled by a Global Corporate Elite who have no interest in others but furthering their own agenda.
Krugman would be their Minister of Correct Actions.
2
The EU was just another bad trade agreement, like NAFTA, that only benefited
global corporations and not the taxpayers.
global corporations and not the taxpayers.
93
Well, for a while it certainly benefited ordinary Greeks, who saw their ancient ruins and modern towns propped up and repsired thanks to the euro.
But then they are not taxpayers.
But then they are not taxpayers.
Compared to the US the UK is a generous welfare state to soothe the stings of inequality. The UK is geographically far from the great refugee crisis at Europe's southern flank. Is this vote about something particularly English?
Or should Clinton supporters be very, very afraid?
Or should Clinton supporters be very, very afraid?
26
Clinton supporters should be afraid. The right wing extremism that used fear and loathing over immigration, the loss of "greatness", this ridiculous notion that we had lost our sovereignty to foreign unelected powers, was enabled by people who are in essence versions of Trump, British style.
No end of lies were made to seem like facts. And the majority believed them. Clever sound bites and perpetual stock phrases were wheeled out day in day out by the Leave campaign and they were believed. They offered a simple solution to a complex set of issues, leave the EU and the grass will be greener on the other side. Of course it won't be.
For all those who say "stick it up the elitists" - Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are both of the political and social elite. Just as Trump is a billionaire allegedly, when in fact it was billionaires and money men and property magnates who caused the recession and the collapse of 2008-9. The very people who contributed to the cause are the ones people now look to to put it right! The irony is painful.
They mastered debasing, debilitating, hard to counter slogans that played on the lowest fears to the lowest common denominator and it worked. Trump is doing the same. I believed the decent people of Britain would never let this slide to an out vote. However having heard the simplistic, inaccurate and selfish reasons people did vote to leave - those notions came from endlessly repeated mantras that no matter how free of fact, were easy to grasp,
No end of lies were made to seem like facts. And the majority believed them. Clever sound bites and perpetual stock phrases were wheeled out day in day out by the Leave campaign and they were believed. They offered a simple solution to a complex set of issues, leave the EU and the grass will be greener on the other side. Of course it won't be.
For all those who say "stick it up the elitists" - Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are both of the political and social elite. Just as Trump is a billionaire allegedly, when in fact it was billionaires and money men and property magnates who caused the recession and the collapse of 2008-9. The very people who contributed to the cause are the ones people now look to to put it right! The irony is painful.
They mastered debasing, debilitating, hard to counter slogans that played on the lowest fears to the lowest common denominator and it worked. Trump is doing the same. I believed the decent people of Britain would never let this slide to an out vote. However having heard the simplistic, inaccurate and selfish reasons people did vote to leave - those notions came from endlessly repeated mantras that no matter how free of fact, were easy to grasp,
6
Yes, housing. And inequality. First time houses are virtually out of reach for the young - despite interest rates being so low. Houses in many parts of the country are simply too expensive. Also, there is growing inequality between standards of living. This isn't about that very British thing class as much as sheer envy of what other people have. The 'leave' figure they have very little to lose. And they're right. It's the rest of the U.K., London, most of the southeast who will suffer. Progressive, educated Americans need to take serious head - this was deemed a virtually impossible outcome just 4 months ago. Anything can happen.
2
They should be very afraid.
This is the beginning of the end for the EU.
Next will come the Netherlands, where a huge majority wants out, then France, then Italy and from there on it will be very easy as the domino effect continues.
In the end, the Brits will be seen as the saviors of Europe, a Europe that will have the rights and individual needs of each nation conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in Belgium.
Next will come the Netherlands, where a huge majority wants out, then France, then Italy and from there on it will be very easy as the domino effect continues.
In the end, the Brits will be seen as the saviors of Europe, a Europe that will have the rights and individual needs of each nation conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in Belgium.
263
In the end, the Texans will be seen as the saviors of America, an America that will have the rights and individual needs of each State conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in Washington.
In the end, NYC will seen as the saviors of New York, a New York that will have the rights and individuals needs of each city conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in Albany.
In the end, Chelsea will be as the saviors of NYC, a NYC that will have the rights and individual needs of each neighborhood conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in City Hall.
In the end, each building will be seen as the saviors of Chelsea, a Chelsea that will have the rights and individual needs of each building conform to its own vision and not that technocrats in the local council.
In the end, each apartment will be seen as the saviors of each building, a building that will have the rights and individual needs of each apartment conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in each building.
In the end, each resident will be seen as the saviors of each apartment, an apartment that will have the rights and individual needs of each resident conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in each apartment.
In the end, each cell will be seen as the saviors of each body, a body that will have the rights and individual needs of each body conform to its own vision and not the technocrats of each body.
In the end, NYC will seen as the saviors of New York, a New York that will have the rights and individuals needs of each city conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in Albany.
In the end, Chelsea will be as the saviors of NYC, a NYC that will have the rights and individual needs of each neighborhood conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in City Hall.
In the end, each building will be seen as the saviors of Chelsea, a Chelsea that will have the rights and individual needs of each building conform to its own vision and not that technocrats in the local council.
In the end, each apartment will be seen as the saviors of each building, a building that will have the rights and individual needs of each apartment conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in each building.
In the end, each resident will be seen as the saviors of each apartment, an apartment that will have the rights and individual needs of each resident conform to its own vision and not that of technocrats in each apartment.
In the end, each cell will be seen as the saviors of each body, a body that will have the rights and individual needs of each body conform to its own vision and not the technocrats of each body.
9
Yes. And we have seen just how well a fragmented Europe with all the nations focused on their individual needs have behaved in the past. Can't wait to see how it turns out this time. Oh, and Russian caviar anyone?
5
Yeah, because that's gone so well, historically speaking. Especially given the rise of neo-fascism throughout Europe.
4
"weakENing the remaining union"
A single issue referendum such as the one Britain just went through represents the ultimate recognition that politicians, who should be developing and enacting policies have failed! It is unlikely that this spasm will greatly influence who wields power, the wealthy and influential can readjust and consolidate their power in a new set of alliances. The consequences of a loss of faith among the populace that the system is working can have more dire results. In the US right now the emergence of a narcissistic, patently crooked racist bully as the likely nominee in a two party system is a far greater threat to civilized society as we know it, than what has just happened in the UK.
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I concur. We need to stop Hillary before she wrecks this country.
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The Lesson of Brexit, Trump & Sanders: We are the ones we've been waiting for...but who are we? Time to sort it out, and I issue a strong paean against the forces of xenophobia and bigotry, for the better world our hearts know is possible. An all-hands-on-deck moment! http://tiny.cc/nbchcy
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The election of Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton as POTUS would present a great problem for the “DONOR CLASS” campaign contributors by shutting off their access to the US treasury’s taxpayer money VIA the “PAY TO PLAY” no-bid US government contracts and control of US foreign policy promised by Hillary to these “DONOR CLASS” campaign contributors including the PACs representing foreign nations.
The “DONOR CLASS” and the PACs (foreign and domestic) are (probably) very unhappy over the situation of losing free access to taxpayer’s money from the US Treasury and control of US foreign policy from the elected “Mainstream” US Democrats and Republicans in the US congress if Donald Trump is elected!
Hillary Clinton and Paul Ryan represent, obey, and speak for the “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) of US and Foreign citizens that dictate the actions of most of our other elected “Mainstream” US Democrats and Republicans in the US congress that participate in "crony capitalism" as our elected representatives accept wine, food, women, song, corporate jobs for their (unemployable) children/wives/girlfriends of the congressmen (and their aids), vacations, cash, pre-paid sexual services, and campaign contributions to entice (bribe) our congressmen to award them NO-BID government contracts paid from the US Treasury, and also to pass whatever new legislation that the “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) wants the elected officials to create.
The “DONOR CLASS” and the PACs (foreign and domestic) are (probably) very unhappy over the situation of losing free access to taxpayer’s money from the US Treasury and control of US foreign policy from the elected “Mainstream” US Democrats and Republicans in the US congress if Donald Trump is elected!
Hillary Clinton and Paul Ryan represent, obey, and speak for the “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) of US and Foreign citizens that dictate the actions of most of our other elected “Mainstream” US Democrats and Republicans in the US congress that participate in "crony capitalism" as our elected representatives accept wine, food, women, song, corporate jobs for their (unemployable) children/wives/girlfriends of the congressmen (and their aids), vacations, cash, pre-paid sexual services, and campaign contributions to entice (bribe) our congressmen to award them NO-BID government contracts paid from the US Treasury, and also to pass whatever new legislation that the “DONOR CLASS” and PAC (foreign and domestic) wants the elected officials to create.
Britain has always been "a bastion of democratic values, economic probity and military reliability."
Indeed. When Germany devoured one country too many in the late 1930s (and it is, of course, an everlasting shame that Chamberlain let things go as he did), England stepped up and held off the Nazi war machine single-handedly. Most European countries fell fast. France capitulated quickly and cravenly, despite Winston Churchill's pleadings and even tears.
I am heartily sorry that England has chosen to leave the EU, but I see why: Germany has been autocratic and heavy-handed, the French don't do much, Belgium is a mess, other countries tag along to be propped up. It seems that nothing changes in 80 or so years.
But unity is better than disunity; measured, legal immigration is a good thing; and rabid nationalism leads to nothing beneficial.
Let's hope that BREXIT doesn't bode well for our Mr. Trump, whose babblings echo those of the anti-Europe extremists in England.
Indeed. When Germany devoured one country too many in the late 1930s (and it is, of course, an everlasting shame that Chamberlain let things go as he did), England stepped up and held off the Nazi war machine single-handedly. Most European countries fell fast. France capitulated quickly and cravenly, despite Winston Churchill's pleadings and even tears.
I am heartily sorry that England has chosen to leave the EU, but I see why: Germany has been autocratic and heavy-handed, the French don't do much, Belgium is a mess, other countries tag along to be propped up. It seems that nothing changes in 80 or so years.
But unity is better than disunity; measured, legal immigration is a good thing; and rabid nationalism leads to nothing beneficial.
Let's hope that BREXIT doesn't bode well for our Mr. Trump, whose babblings echo those of the anti-Europe extremists in England.
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WE need to get out the vote to make sure DT doesn't come within 1000 miles of OUR government, B. All he does is steal from it and us.
8
When National Socialist Germany came knocking at the doors of most European nations at the beginning of WWII, most of those nations emulated France and just gave up their National Sovereignty after the first shot was fired and accepted volunteer slavery to make war products to support the German War Machine against England (and the USA) as they waited for the USA to enter the war and fight to free those various "Nanny State" Nations.
There were a few exceptions, but not very many.
This was more like volunteer slavery, into the arms of their German owners.
Most all of the “Socialist Nanny State” European nations supported the German war machine by selling the Germans their coal, iron, heavy water, food, sex, relaxation, etc. at a profit while they just waited for the USA and England to fight the war for their freedom.
Most of those same European “Nanny States” also ordered their “Nanny State” policemen to arrest and deliver their Jewish populations to the Germans to be exported to the German extermination and labor camps.
US citizens did not ask the European “Socialist Nanny States” to reimburse the USA for the costs in US blood and US treasure that US citizens paid for the European People’s freedom from German Rule (or German Slavery).
If these “Nanny State” nations had reimbursed the USA with the costs of their freedom from Germany and their military defense during the Cold war, then the USA would have had had more money to spend on social benefits for US citizens.
There were a few exceptions, but not very many.
This was more like volunteer slavery, into the arms of their German owners.
Most all of the “Socialist Nanny State” European nations supported the German war machine by selling the Germans their coal, iron, heavy water, food, sex, relaxation, etc. at a profit while they just waited for the USA and England to fight the war for their freedom.
Most of those same European “Nanny States” also ordered their “Nanny State” policemen to arrest and deliver their Jewish populations to the Germans to be exported to the German extermination and labor camps.
US citizens did not ask the European “Socialist Nanny States” to reimburse the USA for the costs in US blood and US treasure that US citizens paid for the European People’s freedom from German Rule (or German Slavery).
If these “Nanny State” nations had reimbursed the USA with the costs of their freedom from Germany and their military defense during the Cold war, then the USA would have had had more money to spend on social benefits for US citizens.
1
I am curious about your statement re: the anti-Europe extremists in England, who constitute 52 percent of votes yesterday. Do you realize how arrogant and dismissive you sound like?
The serfs are rebelling. We are rejecting the politics of austerity and neo-feudalism. We need to support ourselves and our families today; we can't wait forever for someday over the rainbow when the CEOs and the 1% will magnanimously decide they've gorged themselves enough on the backs of our labor and can finally share with the rest of humanity. The overlords haven't been listening and now they are going to topple. David Cameron is just the first to go.
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Yes, and the democrats in the U.S. House showed us how to do it in a peaceful, democratic, respectful way. Voters have the power in the UNITED states of America and WE must not let the haters and fear mongers win the day.
12
Steve 725 that is all very nice populist talk, but the reality is that this is not a zero sum game. The entire pie just got a lot smaller - for everyone, not just the 1%. As others have commented, this is economic suicide for Britain with enormous negative impacts on the rest of the world. Whose heads will the serfs call for next when they realize they just cut their own throats?
15
And don't forget the nameless, faceless bureaucrats in Brussels who make huge salaries, pay no taxes, get incredible vacation time off and pensions equal to their salary for churning out senseless regulations dictating to everyone else how to live their life and run their business.
3
Trump was quick to take credit for psychotic slaughter in Orlando, bathing in the blood of self-congratulations. Now, in Scotland, a nation that voted by 62% to stay within the EU, he is again bathing in red, this time trillions in losses that will be suffered by the British economy. What a great buying opportunity if Trump only had money, right? See, this proves Trump correct, the U.S. presumably should leave the EU too.
Voters will have an object lesson in market behavior to see the damage this fatuous vote has unleashed on the remains of a nation that should have been focused on doing away with supporting the Lords and King instead of free trade. Let's see how this plays for 'King Trump.' The guillotine is looking awfully attractive right now to the Bush family and other sane remnants of the former Republican party.
Voters will have an object lesson in market behavior to see the damage this fatuous vote has unleashed on the remains of a nation that should have been focused on doing away with supporting the Lords and King instead of free trade. Let's see how this plays for 'King Trump.' The guillotine is looking awfully attractive right now to the Bush family and other sane remnants of the former Republican party.
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Unfortunately what this points out is that Trump could actually win.
3
Trump is as big a fraud as leaving the EU is pure stupidity for GB. It turns out the the 'Trump Steaks' he was promoting weren't even really his own meat!! He bought it from the Bush's. This brings 'where's the beef?' to a whole new level of rank fraud.
1
The NYT and the liberal left should not underestimate the frustration and dissatisfaction of the people. Enough of one-size-fits all policy. Enough of out of control endless and dangerous immigration. Enough of unsustainable social safety nets, endless taxation and endless policies that stifle the economy - which in turn stifles jobs and growth.
The EU cannot put in more policies - people are already fed up. They cannot keep the status quo - for the same reason. And they will not disband.
The Germans have national elections looming. The right-wing there will certainly do well. That might mean a "Grexit" vote next.
In November, we will have our own "Amxit" vote here in the US.
The EU cannot put in more policies - people are already fed up. They cannot keep the status quo - for the same reason. And they will not disband.
The Germans have national elections looming. The right-wing there will certainly do well. That might mean a "Grexit" vote next.
In November, we will have our own "Amxit" vote here in the US.
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@John: Grexit is already taken -- by the Greeks. I think they will be next, followed by The Netherlands and then the whole rotten house of cards.
A German exist would have to be called "Gerxit" and no clue how to pronounce that.
A German exist would have to be called "Gerxit" and no clue how to pronounce that.
1
Another triumph for Putin as the West continues to self-destruct.
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It's a win for the European continent because people there don't clamor for a war with Russia as the US/UK do.
3
The EU leaders did not convince the citizens (those pesky little people) that the bureaucracy of Brussels was anything but destructive towards them.
3
None of the pundits are touching on this, but Putin and his gangstas are celebrating this moment. They have been waiting since the end of WWII for such an event.
2
"Technically, the primary consequence of the vote is that Britain must begin the process of disentangling itself from the E.U.’s common market, following procedures set out in Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. "
Actually "must" is a begin word. Boris Johnson was on the record six months ago that his strategy was to use a No vote in the referendum to negotiate better terms of adhesion. So I would expect the following events:
New leadership contest for the Conservative Party
Election of new leader
Negotiations with Europe about whether to stay or to go
If negotiations go well, a new referendum (better deal! now the UK can stay!)
If negotiations don't go well, invocation of Article 50
Actually "must" is a begin word. Boris Johnson was on the record six months ago that his strategy was to use a No vote in the referendum to negotiate better terms of adhesion. So I would expect the following events:
New leadership contest for the Conservative Party
Election of new leader
Negotiations with Europe about whether to stay or to go
If negotiations go well, a new referendum (better deal! now the UK can stay!)
If negotiations don't go well, invocation of Article 50
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Actually "must" is a *big* word.
Evil keyboard, down keyboard.
Evil keyboard, down keyboard.
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I wonder how EU leadership will respond to Boris Johnson's proposed negotiations? Probably not particularly well. They won't want to encourage other member nations to play the same game.
8
Mr. Abo, you surely fail to understand what just happened. This is not a negotiating ploy. There is no better deal under which the UK can stay. There will not be another vote. It is done. Britain has chosen to resume being a nation, not an undifferentiated salad of multicultural fantasies ruled from some place in Belgium.
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