As an African American woman, college-trained, in the baby boomer generation, I must say, that I grew up in and, to this day live women communities. I knew the women who cared for each other, their children and held up any other parts of their lives that were within their abilities and capacities. The legacy of enslavement did not permit women of color to behave in these manners. The sterotypes did this, but not our communities.,
I can only speak authoratative about the community I know best. I can say that my movement among white women has not yielded the communities I've known, been nurtured in and love. There is work for these women to do in creating an inclusive community. Something that had nit
I can only speak authoratative about the community I know best. I can say that my movement among white women has not yielded the communities I've known, been nurtured in and love. There is work for these women to do in creating an inclusive community. Something that had nit
6
Thanks for this great article. At 37 years old, I have had some wonderful bosses in my life--both male and female. The worst boss I had was a man. I've worked in a variety of workplaces from male to female dominated, and as far as I can tell, the leadership and management style of the individual matters more than the gender and has little correlation with gender.
I have noticed and appreciated the many women who took me under their wings and mentored me. I would not be where I am today without their feedback and guidance. I have had many more female mentors than male. Now that I am in middle management, I make an effort to seek out and mentor young women in addition to men (I am currently in a very male dominated industry).
I have noticed and appreciated the many women who took me under their wings and mentored me. I would not be where I am today without their feedback and guidance. I have had many more female mentors than male. Now that I am in middle management, I make an effort to seek out and mentor young women in addition to men (I am currently in a very male dominated industry).
1
A weasel is a weasel regardless of sex but may employ gender based tactics.
9
I am a huge feminist but to "dispel a myth" that the "catty" woman or the "queen bee" does not exist or should not be termed feels driven by an agenda. There are terms for men that are derogatory ie "mansplaining", "boy's club", "dirty old man". I do believe in supporting colleagues: women, men, transgender of all heritages and backgrounds who are good, smart people. As a young woman, of diverse heritage, who has tried to break barriers over the past 15 years, while I have had some great female bosses, I have had many who never advocated for me to move forward in my career, who never let me work on the projects that would have moved me forward even when I pitched them. Some stole ideas, berated me and were not concerned about my future (but never said it). While some may have been good people, many in retrospect, were bullies. I have primarily worked under female leadership, some great and some... not so great. I have also had an experience with a bad male boss who was sexist. In short, there are huge issues about the accountability of leadership in GENERAL and very little responsibility for poor leadership and behavior at that level, even in a large corporate environment with values that I completely question, as the assessment of people qualifications are so often arbitrary, even with so-called "hiring systems". The issue of diversity can not be solved, till there is more accountability at the leadership level to its' employees, whether full-time, contract or freelance.
13
If growing my personal wealth and success regardless of consequences was my primary motivation I'd be Sheryl Sandberg, one of the chief architects of Facebook's strategy to exploit its female, and male, members for personal profit. A rapacious and out-of-touch oligarch, she is not qualified to have an opinion on issues that matter. The world will become a hellscape of backstabbing grifters the day a significant number of women take this swindler's advice.
21
I left my last job because my boss, a woman, was unbearable, micromanaging, and domineering. And fwiw, every employee at our business was female.
12
I had to leave a job I loved because a group of older women were physically, emotionally, professionally abusive and cruel. I am a nurse practitioner. I worked with four "old time" nurses- who knew something about "eating their young." I was eaten alive. I was pushed in hallways. I was called an Asian twit. I had phones and doors slammed in my face. They spoke poorly of me to my colleagues, patients. They spied on my every move. My union (also their union), my nurse supervisor, clinic head, my department head, my collaborator all stood on the side- helpless- and watched while I spiraled down from a confident, optimistic, hardworking np to an emotionally wrecked, depressed, anxiety ridden mess. I had to take time off- which made me not only lose wages, but also destroyed my self esteem, reputation, and confidence in the system. If only I lived in this fantasy world ms Sandberg is touting-only if I chose a more white collared job as my fellow Ivy League graduates...maybe my path would be a storied and a sheltered one. But alas, no. I chose nursing. I've lost my faith in women. I will always have eyes to back of my head. I will never be wholly myself at work. There are mean girls- and the ones who are your friends? They secretly want to watch you fail. Don't be a naive moron to think that this doesn't exist. It does. Watch your back, ladies- they are not really that happy for you.
19
I also had a strong mother - and a supportive father, and an excellent (male) mentor. Working in a predominantly male field, I was usually the only woman, and had to adapt to a male style of thinking and working. Talk K would therefore probably see me as 'not respecting myself'. Ridiculous. Later, As a boss, I received high marks from both male and female employees, and hired women whenever possible.
The mean-girl manager does exist, along with the crazy male boss; their existence is a display of the failure of higher level management.
The mean-girl manager does exist, along with the crazy male boss; their existence is a display of the failure of higher level management.
7
Of course, everyone has their own real life experiences to determine if this kind of thing is a real problem. Be honest, do Sandberg's views scan with anyone's real life experiences? Life is unfair, competition is hard. boo hoo.
3
"The catty woman" who refuses to help other women achieve is *not* a myth. She exists, still, in places where women are only tokens, not legitimate partners in the success of the organization. The answer, obviously, is to ditch the outmoded thinking, increase the number of women in leadership positions, and educate the catty human roadblocks to other, less destructive ways of achieving success. And if they can't get with the program, cut them loose.
13
It has been my unfortunate experience to find that there are a lot of "catty" women in leadership roles as well. It just depends on the person, and what they perceive gives them an edge in that particular context. There is a male equivalent as well, one who is unnecessarily a bit aggressive, just enough to gain an edge and be respected for his puffery among male peers and subordinates but not enough to be threatening to higher ups, but they tend to form few coalitions, unlike women.
7
The field of nursing is full of the negatives of what women can do to each other when left to their own devices. The best places I've worked are places where there are more men working and bringing with them a balancing energy we women desperately need. I hate that this is the experience I've had, but I can't pretend it's not there either.
20
There is still a part of our culture where coalitions are formed among associates by banding together against another person. It seems that this type of social politicking is so ingrained in many, that they will often manufacture a reason to create a scapegoat, making mountains out of molehills - or even out of thin air - in order to create a reason to be able to form these types of bonds at someone else's expense. Frans de Waal has written a lot of great books about primates and their coalitions and politics, one was called Peacemaking Among Primates. The need to form coalitions is strong and it is always important to be aware that this may also be done at the expense of others on occasion.
So, in conclusion - we are not "catty" we are simply being primates.
So, in conclusion - we are not "catty" we are simply being primates.
4
What I really like is that de Waal begins his book, Our Inner Ape, by highlighting the implications of the famous line by Katharine Hepburn from the movie African Queen, "Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above."
6
Exceptions do not break the rule, so while there are certainly females who do not measure up to their potential as champions for other women, there are far more males who prefer not competing with and/or reporting to females. Companies with women as senior managers and members of boards of directors are more innovative and profitable.
The thing is, it's about how women relate to others and to teamwork, which is more collaborative than many, if not most, males, who are workers in silos. My wife, a very successful senior executive, notes regularly that men bring their testosterone to the table, and this undermines problem-solving, working together and being supportive.
Women are better at this because they socialize differently from a very young age, finding that being competitive is best accomplished by working together rather than as individual contributors. There are certainly exceptions...too many, but overall still better than the inability to share that many men suffer from...particularly when it comes to women.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
The thing is, it's about how women relate to others and to teamwork, which is more collaborative than many, if not most, males, who are workers in silos. My wife, a very successful senior executive, notes regularly that men bring their testosterone to the table, and this undermines problem-solving, working together and being supportive.
Women are better at this because they socialize differently from a very young age, finding that being competitive is best accomplished by working together rather than as individual contributors. There are certainly exceptions...too many, but overall still better than the inability to share that many men suffer from...particularly when it comes to women.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
3
Very thought-provoking article. But I do question this. "When men argue, it’s a healthy debate. When women argue … meow! It’s a catfight."
Outsiders perceive these interactions differently because the participants perceive them differently. Women typically approach interpersonal relationships somewhat differently then do men. Part of this is culture, part of this is biology. Since men are typically obnoxious and aggressive, they treat such behavior less seriously.
I have seen two men get into screaming matches and then go out for a drink an hour later as if nothing had happened -- because it didn't. The same behavior between two women would have ruined the relationship permanently.
As I say, a good part of this is cultural. You can get in a vigorous shouting match in a place like Italy and no harm done. The same behavior in Japan would be tantamount to physical violence.
Outsiders perceive these interactions differently because the participants perceive them differently. Women typically approach interpersonal relationships somewhat differently then do men. Part of this is culture, part of this is biology. Since men are typically obnoxious and aggressive, they treat such behavior less seriously.
I have seen two men get into screaming matches and then go out for a drink an hour later as if nothing had happened -- because it didn't. The same behavior between two women would have ruined the relationship permanently.
As I say, a good part of this is cultural. You can get in a vigorous shouting match in a place like Italy and no harm done. The same behavior in Japan would be tantamount to physical violence.
14
In an earlier post, I was having a really hard time recalling examples of men being "catty." But then I remembered the most catty person on our political landscape right now, our nation's Republican nominee for President!
20
I'm a male, so I'm on the outside looking in.
That said, the article focuses on promotion and upward mobility in the workplace. In my experience, I've seen a lot of Mean Girl mistreatment happen on a more lateral level. Heck, there's a group of women on my floor, all at the same job level (mid-management) and the gossip and two-face-ness is non-stop. One of them has become outright paranoid, thinking that she hears "them" talking about her over the cubicle wall in whispers. I've certainly haven't had to deal with any sort of situation like that in the workplace.
And then, just because women help each other move up does not mean that they're being supportive. There's a female executive here that promotes unsuspecting women into her sphere of influence -- and then proceeds to control them mercilessly. Her unit was working next to mine in the cubicle farm and every opening we had, we got resumes from her unit from people desperate to get out from under her iron fist. A couple of women played her game further and would get another promotion out of it, but everyone distrusts everyone else and the morale is quite low, despite smiling faces shown when other executives are around.
That all said, there are also the variety of non-Mean Girls and pleasant female co-workers that also work here that share my shock at these situations.
The jungle that is out there is definitely much more complicated than Sheryl Sandberg has described.
That said, the article focuses on promotion and upward mobility in the workplace. In my experience, I've seen a lot of Mean Girl mistreatment happen on a more lateral level. Heck, there's a group of women on my floor, all at the same job level (mid-management) and the gossip and two-face-ness is non-stop. One of them has become outright paranoid, thinking that she hears "them" talking about her over the cubicle wall in whispers. I've certainly haven't had to deal with any sort of situation like that in the workplace.
And then, just because women help each other move up does not mean that they're being supportive. There's a female executive here that promotes unsuspecting women into her sphere of influence -- and then proceeds to control them mercilessly. Her unit was working next to mine in the cubicle farm and every opening we had, we got resumes from her unit from people desperate to get out from under her iron fist. A couple of women played her game further and would get another promotion out of it, but everyone distrusts everyone else and the morale is quite low, despite smiling faces shown when other executives are around.
That all said, there are also the variety of non-Mean Girls and pleasant female co-workers that also work here that share my shock at these situations.
The jungle that is out there is definitely much more complicated than Sheryl Sandberg has described.
25
"...just because women help each other move up does not mean that they're being supportive."
Bingo. I came to the comments section to voice precisely this thought in very nearly the same words.
Bingo. I came to the comments section to voice precisely this thought in very nearly the same words.
9
Sandberg has very flexible and opportunistic values: she has expended lots of verbiage supporting Larry Summers, the guy who resigned as the head of Harvard after claiming women were inherently infer in science. Apparently all the women Nobel winners in science were flukes...
Hope the NYT's deal with Facebook doesn't mandate regular "wisdom" and "insight" columns from Facebook execs.
Hope the NYT's deal with Facebook doesn't mandate regular "wisdom" and "insight" columns from Facebook execs.
25
I left my last job because of the woman who became my boss. I had worked at the organization many years before she started working there. When she got promoted, she became a bossy, overbearing and nasty woman. My fellow co-workers didn't like her either. Some even told me that she was "jealous" of me because I "knew too much." I don't ever want to work at a place again where a woman is my boss. And as far as general "cattiness" I work with women in their 40's and 50's who are gossipy and two-faced and sometimes I think I'm back in high school. I believe Sheryl Sandberg is clueless and has never really been "in the trenches."
44
This article essentially makes some obvious observations. The species is tribal (groupism is ubiquitous) and cooperation fades under duress (when my self-interest is threatened).
Whether this has any significant implications for the future welfare of women is unclear, I would say.
It is plausible that the larger the group, the more power it can wield. It is also plausible that if goods (such as female occupied executive positions) are less scarce that intra-group (female versus female) competition should diminish.
My guess would be that there will prove to be other factors with greater explanatory power, affecting professional outcomes. Attitudes towards children both by employers, the state and women themselves for one, for example.
Still, Ms Sandberg's article is anecdotally pleasing, at least.
Whether this has any significant implications for the future welfare of women is unclear, I would say.
It is plausible that the larger the group, the more power it can wield. It is also plausible that if goods (such as female occupied executive positions) are less scarce that intra-group (female versus female) competition should diminish.
My guess would be that there will prove to be other factors with greater explanatory power, affecting professional outcomes. Attitudes towards children both by employers, the state and women themselves for one, for example.
Still, Ms Sandberg's article is anecdotally pleasing, at least.
4
The best boss I ever had was a woman. I was a fool to ever leave.
The worst boss I ever had was a woman who wanted it both ways: she wanted to be like Faye Dunaway in "Mommie Dearest" ("Don't f** with me, fellas!), and at the same time, she knew when to turn on the tears to get her way.
The worst boss I ever had was a woman who wanted it both ways: she wanted to be like Faye Dunaway in "Mommie Dearest" ("Don't f** with me, fellas!), and at the same time, she knew when to turn on the tears to get her way.
6
Is the research based in Western nations? I cannot seem to find a parallel in a nation like Japan where, in fact, there seem to be fewer role models for women, and too often, we hear the lone woman senior executive make comments like, "in order for them (other women) to succeed, they have to at least work as hard as I did,"
3
So Sandberg wrote a book about how to be an aggressive woman and Grant is a management psychologist who teaches her theory.
I doubt either of them would know a catty woman if they saw one or at least they wouldn't admit it. It doesn't fit the theory. Meanwhile they help women be aggressive and are well paid for it. It's like Scientology for women. More Psychology nonsense. Their kind of experiments are why I didn't practice psychology even though I had a degree in clinical psych from a major university. It is pseudo-knowledge and you can prove anything with their methods.
Just read this article sentence by sentence with a questioning attitude to see what I mean.
I doubt either of them would know a catty woman if they saw one or at least they wouldn't admit it. It doesn't fit the theory. Meanwhile they help women be aggressive and are well paid for it. It's like Scientology for women. More Psychology nonsense. Their kind of experiments are why I didn't practice psychology even though I had a degree in clinical psych from a major university. It is pseudo-knowledge and you can prove anything with their methods.
Just read this article sentence by sentence with a questioning attitude to see what I mean.
11
There are probably some generalizations about gender we can make: Men are more likely to promote pretty women, women are more likely to be nurturing of their charges. There is also a generalization we can make about humans: when threatened they will take defensive measures. I've had 35+ years dealing as both employee and vendor to dozens of large corporations. I've seen women who got the one token "EEO" executive slot with no further chance for advancement who were always more critical of female subordinates. Conversely at those corporations with an environment where every executive believed their advancement was in their own hands I usually found the departments managed by women to have a surplus of highly effective mid and low-level female managers and a pervasive, positive team attitude.
Don't get me wrong, that 1 slot is better than none and some companies just won't create that 1 slot unless they are forced to. But a company will best succeed when it takes full advantage of all the talents of all it's employees and all the employees know they will be rewarded for giving their best. It's a difficult job bringing an entrepreneurial attitude to a bureaucracy and frankly I've seen it best achieved by a woman.
Don't get me wrong, that 1 slot is better than none and some companies just won't create that 1 slot unless they are forced to. But a company will best succeed when it takes full advantage of all the talents of all it's employees and all the employees know they will be rewarded for giving their best. It's a difficult job bringing an entrepreneurial attitude to a bureaucracy and frankly I've seen it best achieved by a woman.
5
(What’s the derogatory male equivalent? It doesn’t exist.) It's called a bully. As someone who was bullied for much of my childhood, and also as someone who has on occasion paid attention to the Republican presidential campaign, I can tell you that they definitely do exist. As for Mean Girls being mythical creatures, my daughter and many of her friends laughed when I told them about your premise. Maybe you're just living in a different world than the people I know.
15
Once I was shopping a global foods store where they were selling live crabs out of a tall basket. The crabs kept trying to crawl up the sides of the basket to escape, so I asked an employee why the basket had no cover. He said, no need. Before one would get to the top, another would always pull it down. Well, from my experience, women can be like that. I've come to prefer the companionship of men.
16
Has consideration been given to the women bosses that strive to excel and be perfect in all aspects at work and home without any outside help? The result is a stressed-out, high strung worker, boss, and colleague. Managing a faced paced job along with being scout leader, PTA board member, church committee chair, local theater producer all while simultaneously orchestrating home duties renders many women bosses worn out for their job. Mentoring or even being able to communicate vital details in the workplace are just another desirable concept but a reality that is not attainable at this pace.
For these A+ women they need a mentor to help them understand prioritization and to seek assistance. Accomplishing every dream, goal, and task at work and home can be done with the right planning and realistic timing.
For these A+ women they need a mentor to help them understand prioritization and to seek assistance. Accomplishing every dream, goal, and task at work and home can be done with the right planning and realistic timing.
2
It seems the only people perpetuating stereotypes in this drivel are the authors.
17
Oy. Sandberg and Grant have jumped the shark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
8
A very smart person I know said that power does not relinquish power, ever. So it has to be fought for. In our current culture, the power is controlled by white males. In other cultures where the races are non-white, it is the males, period, even within the castes. And, the lowest caste male has the power over the female. Personally, I have been quite fortunate to have had a strong role model in my mother. My only sibbling is another female, and my first job was with an all-female population. All of that prepared me for my current male-dominated business environment. I view the sexist commentary that I witness as a show of weakness, and I stand my ground and choose my battles politically. Yet it is so unfortunate when some of my female peers choose to go along with the sexism, thinking that if they can be seen as one of the boys, they will be on an even playing field with the boys. I'm here to tell them, it is just the opposite. If you do not respect yourself then you cannot expect respect in return. Let me ask you, did Ronald Reagan look weak when he respected his strong wife, Nancy? Did Bill Clinton look weak when he respected his strong wife, Hillary? Of course not. Strength recognizes strength. But remember, power does not relinquish power, ever. It has to be fought for.
3
I work in academia, and by and large I have found women, both peers and those in senior positions, to incredibly supportive. I've also had people steal ideas, and recently had a brutal interview where an eminent, female scholar was so derisive and rude it was shocking. Feedback revealed this was her personality and she had a long history of such behavior. Admin allowed her behavior to go unchecked, the downside of tenure. In this and earlier careers I've had male and female bosses, both good and bad. What I think is important to recognize, which Sandberg doesn't outright state, but proves, is that the language we use around women becomes an important part in how we perceive women and their actions. We need to stop and consider this, and understand the 'bad' mentor for what they are, individuals with issues, which may or may not be based upon their gender. Importantly we might want to consider where misogyny starts - when parents tell us that "girls are awful or more difficult" to raise, whereas boys may be boys and their behavior is excused. If you start off perceived as difficult in a world where you are expected to be nice and conciliatory how do you ever recover?
10
This piece seems dated. I haven't even heard the term "queen bee" or a reference to "catty" in ages. Maybe Silicon Valley is way different from the east coast. Certainly we need more women in boardrooms and the C-Suite, but this piece is weird in somehow trying to link perceived cattiness to a dearth of female CEOs.
15
It is not that women are harder on other women, it's the men are easier on women than they are on other men.
8
Can someone explain to me how Sheryl Sandberg got to be the chief commentator on all things related to work and gender?
And do the NYT editors title other op-eds with the author's name?
Ms. Sandberg has somehow forged a second career publishing glorified water cooler banter as "social commentary" and seems to have recruited the NYT editors into acting as press agents. Please stop reading her, and instead go out and be nice in the world, and try to stop seeing bogey(men) behind every office door.
And do the NYT editors title other op-eds with the author's name?
Ms. Sandberg has somehow forged a second career publishing glorified water cooler banter as "social commentary" and seems to have recruited the NYT editors into acting as press agents. Please stop reading her, and instead go out and be nice in the world, and try to stop seeing bogey(men) behind every office door.
32
Thank you, Sheryl Sandberg, for shedding light on this tired stereotype. I have worked in politics for almost fifteen years and have had the privilege to work for more than one woman in office, in addition to women in staff-level positions of power.
Many of my peers in Washington are women unashamed of their ambition and unapologetic for their intelligence. My experience in this Old Boys' town has been defined by them, in a most positive way. Of course there are personality conflicts and power struggles and competition - that's politics. But, there is also a widespread willingness among experienced women in both political parties to mentor those on the way up and help each other navigate a town and an industry still dominated by men at the very top.
Those men can continue to buy into the myth that women are only a threat to one another if it makes them feel secure but I suspect they'll figure out what's really happening soon enough.
Many of my peers in Washington are women unashamed of their ambition and unapologetic for their intelligence. My experience in this Old Boys' town has been defined by them, in a most positive way. Of course there are personality conflicts and power struggles and competition - that's politics. But, there is also a widespread willingness among experienced women in both political parties to mentor those on the way up and help each other navigate a town and an industry still dominated by men at the very top.
Those men can continue to buy into the myth that women are only a threat to one another if it makes them feel secure but I suspect they'll figure out what's really happening soon enough.
5
The queen bees I have experienced are not bosses, but co-workers at the same level or below, who don't appreciate women who don't buy in to their social structure, which is rife with mean gossip and innuendo. It's passive aggressive behavior at its worst. The enemy to this kind of person is a smart, assertive woman who goes for what she wants and ignores the bee hive.
I've never had a bad female boss. I won't go into the bad male bosses who enable queen bees.
Any boss who appreciates me for what I bring to the team and doesn't hold me to a different standard for being a woman is fine with me. I can compete with anyone.
I've never had a bad female boss. I won't go into the bad male bosses who enable queen bees.
Any boss who appreciates me for what I bring to the team and doesn't hold me to a different standard for being a woman is fine with me. I can compete with anyone.
12
Men can be viciously competitive, and there are words for the really awful ones, but they can't be printed here. The fact that women can be difficult too should be no surprise and further proof of equality between the sexes. In my work life, women have always been my best friends because I am a woman and I enjoy their company. Most of the men I have worked with have been very kind as well. However, I can think of people in my work environment from both sexes that were toxic and dangerous. There will always be that kind of person in every endeavor.
23
As a woman boss in a heavily male environment, I will say a few things. One, women are expected to be nicer than men - it's sexism that permeates men and women. No boss is going to be your mom. And for young women - just because your male boss flatters you or laughs at your jokes doesn't mean he is going to promote you, so don't confuse the two. Two, I have mentored many women and men alike. They would tell you I have flaws, and can be tough but fair and loyal. But the people I have worked with that are less than competent? I avoid them and give them little work or responsibility. People like to blame anyone but themselves for their failure to thrive, and if you feel like a female boss is holding you down - look within yourself first. Third, because I work in a very male industry, I can't have all women employees surrounding me - I have to have a mix, or the clients will get turned off. That's just a fact, so if that makes me "catty" so be it. Fourth - I love working with other senior women - love, love, love it - and most other senior women I see love it, too. Sometimes the other senior women are aloof at first - but so are a lot of men. Women may be slightly more aloof because they are worried you are going to judge them as lesser. But once you establish a relationship, women are fantastic to work alongside - I love it.
But until there are more female bosses and people get used to women in power, the "catty" stereotype will continue.
But until there are more female bosses and people get used to women in power, the "catty" stereotype will continue.
5
This makes me laugh.
I have worked with and for some miserable women, miserable.
They were instrumental in producing a real toxic work environment.
A year after I resigned from one position she was fired!
A non-profit I had worked for was out-of-business six months after I resigned.
It is sad that work can make life so miserable, but then it is work.
So it makes me laugh.
I have worked with and for some miserable women, miserable.
They were instrumental in producing a real toxic work environment.
A year after I resigned from one position she was fired!
A non-profit I had worked for was out-of-business six months after I resigned.
It is sad that work can make life so miserable, but then it is work.
So it makes me laugh.
2
At about age 14, girls separate into 2 different groups: those who retain their girlfriends and work well with other women even as they start dating boys and those who have been socialized into seeing other women as competition for boys' attentions. Then they grow up and the latter group identify with the male paradigm and are mean (catty?) to other women and the former are not. Believe me, I have worked in a "female profession", nursing and have seen this up close and personal. Fortunately, the women who value their women friends were in the vast majority.
3
I am a 30 year entrepreneur. I have seen it all. I have many female business heroes. Women who earned their success and my admiration through guts, knowledge, determination, and creating products and services that we all use today. I do not respect Sandberg and I believe she has no right to give anyone advice. I am sorry. She did not earn her billionaire status. It was given to her by men. She did nothing to build either company. She was simply in the right place at the right time. There are many men who also were also in the right place at the right time who also do not deserve the billionaire status. These men should also not be giving any advice. Sheryl has become a politician yet she doesnt have the guts to run for office. Sheryl has not and would not dare start a company of her own because then we would see she is not capable. Instead, she takes the position of giving advice and starting foundations and everything else where there is no need to actually perform.
11
Starts off suggesting this type doesn't exist, then quickly says given endemic sexism, no wonder it exists. Might also add that another consequence: women were left in small, intimate clanship groups, where a more personal style of management prospers.
Must we even use the sexist term "catty?" The minute I see that word used (outside of referring to why it should not be used), I begin to devalue the integrity of what I am reading. This refers to the article's author along with the majority of the comments.
4
The writers seem to be trying to deny a dynamic that everyone sees around them every day. Maybe I will write an Op-Ed that attempts to deny that men are aggressive, patronizing, or whatever and try to pin that on female bias. We all should stop trying g to deny our faults by slandering everyone else. Women have faults, just like men, that have nothing to do with anything other than their own fears and weaknesses.
8
Sorry Sheryl, but I am really not interested in hearing your advice on what women should do about anything. You were wrong about "Lean In" -- something you didn't even realize till your sad loss put you closer to our shoes (but still not in them, if yours are Manolo Blahnick; mine are Merrells). I think you might profitably try to mind your own business for a while, and leave us to ours.
17
I am shocked, shocked to read a well reasoned and stimulating NYT Op Ed piece by two highly intelligent people (Sheryl Sandberg and Adam Grant). Worse yet, the title is neither condescending, pompous or self-righteous. This is a clear breach of 'Pinch' Sulzberger's philosophy of embracing conformity and intellectual mediocrity.
Thank you,
Thank you,
1
I graduated from nursing school in 1990, when the problem of new graduates being treated badly by veteran nurses was discussed as Oppressed Group Behavior. How sad to see that there is little change in the subsequent 25 years.
I have witnessed the gossip, undermining, and what can really only be described as harassment of females by other females, even to the point of risking the life of a patient to score a point against another nurse. Male nurses are generally treated much better, are frequently given choice jobs, positions on career-enhancing committees, promotions etc. above females who were better qualified and/or more deserving. the result is that Male Privilege is perpetuated by females. I recently read a book about women's issues in Afghanistan and learned that many "honor" killings are in fact carried out by women, and thus it is the women who participate in and perpetuate their own subjugation.
What will change this? What won't change it is denying that it exists. There certainly are very good women bosses; I've seen them too, but they are the exception. What makes them different? I kinda hate to say it, but at least in part a pragmatism and intolerance for "drama" that is currently considered a *masculine* trait.
I have witnessed the gossip, undermining, and what can really only be described as harassment of females by other females, even to the point of risking the life of a patient to score a point against another nurse. Male nurses are generally treated much better, are frequently given choice jobs, positions on career-enhancing committees, promotions etc. above females who were better qualified and/or more deserving. the result is that Male Privilege is perpetuated by females. I recently read a book about women's issues in Afghanistan and learned that many "honor" killings are in fact carried out by women, and thus it is the women who participate in and perpetuate their own subjugation.
What will change this? What won't change it is denying that it exists. There certainly are very good women bosses; I've seen them too, but they are the exception. What makes them different? I kinda hate to say it, but at least in part a pragmatism and intolerance for "drama" that is currently considered a *masculine* trait.
7
The myth most in need of demolition is that women are a superior species and always come from a place of higher motivation. It is simply not true.
This is a simplistic biased naive fantasy.
What is true is that women, as they assume an equal role in the world largely behave as men have. Reference women in positions of authority since WWII, or millennia, not exactly a group of peace lovers.
This is a simplistic biased naive fantasy.
What is true is that women, as they assume an equal role in the world largely behave as men have. Reference women in positions of authority since WWII, or millennia, not exactly a group of peace lovers.
8
Nope.
I've been in the workforce for 34 years, almost all of that time as an Administrative or Executive Assistant. I can count on one hand the number of management/exec level women with whom, or for whom, I've worked who was good boss. They invariably had to demean someone else to feel better about themselves, and they never brought other women "along," or helped them to achieve. It was as if they got theirs, now you can go get yours.
It's not a myth; it's not a stereotype; it' not misogynistic; it's not a theory. It's the truth.
It's time for women to stand up TO EACH OTHER. Don't reward bad behavior with a shrug; call it out. If a guy was doing it to you, you'd say something.
Why should women be treated differently?
I've been in the workforce for 34 years, almost all of that time as an Administrative or Executive Assistant. I can count on one hand the number of management/exec level women with whom, or for whom, I've worked who was good boss. They invariably had to demean someone else to feel better about themselves, and they never brought other women "along," or helped them to achieve. It was as if they got theirs, now you can go get yours.
It's not a myth; it's not a stereotype; it' not misogynistic; it's not a theory. It's the truth.
It's time for women to stand up TO EACH OTHER. Don't reward bad behavior with a shrug; call it out. If a guy was doing it to you, you'd say something.
Why should women be treated differently?
14
Sheryl,
You do realize that board behaviors are so far beside the point that it's almost comical you discuss it. They are 1% of the 1% and, given their behavior toward employees, F 'em if they are or are not supportive of one another.
I imagine you feel like you mean well and haters gon' hate, but a lot of the resentment of your book is that your bubble is so very far removed that you seem unaware how screwed the working and middle class are.
As you approach your middle years, you'll get a lot less pushback if you try to understand Paul Newman's humility: "I wanted, I think, to acknowledge Luck: the chance of it, the benevolence of it in my life, and the brutality of it in the lives of others." Being at Harvard was already treble lucky. Summers...well, that was trifecta.
Better you publish all this stuff in a private newsletter for CEOs and hedge managers who are similarly absorbed in perfecting perfect careers. I'm sure they appreciate your well-turned observations.
If the Silicon Barons turned all that talent and wealth to solving social problems, instead of running up the score on everyone else's children, imagine what would be accomplished.
I'm with Joi Ito: east coast innovates and Silicon Valley monetizes. Slow clap.
You do realize that board behaviors are so far beside the point that it's almost comical you discuss it. They are 1% of the 1% and, given their behavior toward employees, F 'em if they are or are not supportive of one another.
I imagine you feel like you mean well and haters gon' hate, but a lot of the resentment of your book is that your bubble is so very far removed that you seem unaware how screwed the working and middle class are.
As you approach your middle years, you'll get a lot less pushback if you try to understand Paul Newman's humility: "I wanted, I think, to acknowledge Luck: the chance of it, the benevolence of it in my life, and the brutality of it in the lives of others." Being at Harvard was already treble lucky. Summers...well, that was trifecta.
Better you publish all this stuff in a private newsletter for CEOs and hedge managers who are similarly absorbed in perfecting perfect careers. I'm sure they appreciate your well-turned observations.
If the Silicon Barons turned all that talent and wealth to solving social problems, instead of running up the score on everyone else's children, imagine what would be accomplished.
I'm with Joi Ito: east coast innovates and Silicon Valley monetizes. Slow clap.
12
I think it's hurtful to say men don't have equivalents. They are called bullies and alpha males. Competitive social castigation is not limited to one gender and we do a disservice to men by thinking it doesn't exist. It's narrative is not as prevalent, but I think it's important that we at least recognize social stigmatization is an issue for everyone.
7
Can't we just admit that different humans behave differently in different situations?
Why is this single relationship between two women (that we know only the surface details of) somehow exemplary of how all women behave toward each other?
It's not, of course. I'm tired of people who have to draw broad conclusions about human behavior i.e. "Women look out for each other" or, equally, "Women obstruct each other." Some women behave well in X situations. Other women behave poorly in that same situation. Ditto for men.
We don't have the data to draw meaningful conclusions about "general workplace behavior" and it's just a blatant misrepresentation to say that we do.
Why is this single relationship between two women (that we know only the surface details of) somehow exemplary of how all women behave toward each other?
It's not, of course. I'm tired of people who have to draw broad conclusions about human behavior i.e. "Women look out for each other" or, equally, "Women obstruct each other." Some women behave well in X situations. Other women behave poorly in that same situation. Ditto for men.
We don't have the data to draw meaningful conclusions about "general workplace behavior" and it's just a blatant misrepresentation to say that we do.
9
In the 2016 US marathon Olympic Trials held in Los Angeles, training partners and friends Shalane Flanagan and Amy Cragg ran side by side for mile after mile. When Flanagan, the runner with the faster PR and credentials faltered, Cragg stayed by her side urging her on. Finally after reassuring Flanagan that she would make it to the finish in the top 3 ensuring an Olympic berth, Cragg raced away for the win. Teamwork, camaraderie and support all while running sub-2:30 marathon pace. That's athleticism, that's what two women working together look like.
5
The male equivalent is: frenemy.
1
Is that a male-specific term?
2
"What's the derogatory male equivalent?"
The Underminer, for one among several.
As to the women's myth, just read stories about Beyonce. There are catty women everywhere. Just as there are supporting men and women.
The Underminer, for one among several.
As to the women's myth, just read stories about Beyonce. There are catty women everywhere. Just as there are supporting men and women.
3
I work in a predominately male group and I thank God every day for it. Many women I have worked with in the past are what I like to call "knowledge hoarders". Meaning they won't show or train anyone how to do something critical to job success maybe it's because they feel threatened by another women, maybe it's because they feel like their own importance in the workplace will fade or maybe they are just jerks.
12
As a female in IT for 30 years, I am still looking forward to reporting to another woman.
20
I am 71 years old and entered the workforce as a new college graduate in 1967. At that time, i found women to be all those things and attributed it to having had no female role models. I am sorry to say, in my experience, it has not improved very much but i am hopeful that as more women have real careers with real responsibilities, the pettiness and downright cruelty that i observed ---exclusively by women to other women -- will disappear.
3
"When men promoted diversity, they received slightly higher performance ratings ... When female executives promoted diversity, they were punished with significantly lower performance ratings."
Couldn't this be said in a different way - that when people promote their own groups, no matter who they are, they're penalized because it's seen as potentially nepotistic? Isn't that reasonable, and naturally beneficial to minorities overall anyway?
Couldn't this be said in a different way - that when people promote their own groups, no matter who they are, they're penalized because it's seen as potentially nepotistic? Isn't that reasonable, and naturally beneficial to minorities overall anyway?
4
Anlke bitters have been the bane of my professional life. Unfortunately, of the female persuasion.
I have earned every dollar and every opportunity that I have ever made without help or support. Because I didn't have mentors or doors opened for me, I have reached out to help, guide, train, and encourage younger women. In most cases, I find young women feel entitled and do not appreciate the advantages they are given. In a few rare cases, I have seen young women who struggled later flourish with a little help, and support. They thankfully have become colleagues and friends.
Regretfully it is the pervasive and abundant number of ankle biters who dominate the workplace. They gossip and tear down other women in ways that make the word "catty" sound kind. It's a shame. Hoped we had come further than 'a long way baby!'
I have earned every dollar and every opportunity that I have ever made without help or support. Because I didn't have mentors or doors opened for me, I have reached out to help, guide, train, and encourage younger women. In most cases, I find young women feel entitled and do not appreciate the advantages they are given. In a few rare cases, I have seen young women who struggled later flourish with a little help, and support. They thankfully have become colleagues and friends.
Regretfully it is the pervasive and abundant number of ankle biters who dominate the workplace. They gossip and tear down other women in ways that make the word "catty" sound kind. It's a shame. Hoped we had come further than 'a long way baby!'
3
Whoa, Ms. Sandberg and Mr. Grant really got this one wrong! I get that your data shows not all female bosses are “queen bees,” and it’s encouraging to know women in power tend to create opportunities for women. But to imply that women aren’t “catty” in business, sports and life is a big, fat fallacy as evidenced by the many comments from your readers.
I’d define “queen-bee”-ness as an insecure person’s calculated tactic to gain or preserve rank and power, while cattiness is mean-spirited entertainment— shoot-from-the-mouth denigration of another due to one’s own emotional immaturity, insecurity and fear of inferiority. The reason there’s no parallel adjective for a man who engages in this type of behavior is because men, in my experience, don’t typically choose belittling and character assassination as tools to gain power over other men or prop up their own ego. The hard truth is that the many women who choose to be catty give all women a bad rap.
While Ms. Sandberg’s intentions are good, her elite education, work history and status make her uniquely unqualified to debunk a “myth” that is a reality in most girls’ and women’s lives at one time or another. I was spared the “mean girls” of childhood but am now experiencing cattiness gone wild among 40+ women in a USTA tennis league. Other female tennis players have described similar dispiriting experiences in this small town where cattiness seems to be a favorite pastime. Apparently, it’s just more fun than growing up.
I’d define “queen-bee”-ness as an insecure person’s calculated tactic to gain or preserve rank and power, while cattiness is mean-spirited entertainment— shoot-from-the-mouth denigration of another due to one’s own emotional immaturity, insecurity and fear of inferiority. The reason there’s no parallel adjective for a man who engages in this type of behavior is because men, in my experience, don’t typically choose belittling and character assassination as tools to gain power over other men or prop up their own ego. The hard truth is that the many women who choose to be catty give all women a bad rap.
While Ms. Sandberg’s intentions are good, her elite education, work history and status make her uniquely unqualified to debunk a “myth” that is a reality in most girls’ and women’s lives at one time or another. I was spared the “mean girls” of childhood but am now experiencing cattiness gone wild among 40+ women in a USTA tennis league. Other female tennis players have described similar dispiriting experiences in this small town where cattiness seems to be a favorite pastime. Apparently, it’s just more fun than growing up.
6
"Queen bees exist, but they’re far less common than we think. Women aren’t any meaner to women than men are to one another." (nor nicer, for every johaug and bjorgen there's a magic and bird.)
that's about it, the rest of this is just retail nonsense...
that's about it, the rest of this is just retail nonsense...
1
I've had a chance to work with some incredible female engineers in my career (shout out to Lorena, Deborah, Cheryl, Jane, Lou Ann - to name a few). In my 28 years of business, in general I find women to be better managers and team players than men. Less "pissing match" more "win-win". Unfortunately, there is a dearth of women engineers. In a a conservative country like Austria, even more so than in the US.
Have I seen vindictive, petty women? Sure. But I've seen even more vindictive, petty men. My career long anecdotal evidence backs up this article. There are queen bee types, but more likely than not, it is a man(ager) fearful that the women below him can do a better job who is keeping the women down by any means fair or foul.
Have I seen vindictive, petty women? Sure. But I've seen even more vindictive, petty men. My career long anecdotal evidence backs up this article. There are queen bee types, but more likely than not, it is a man(ager) fearful that the women below him can do a better job who is keeping the women down by any means fair or foul.
3
Did Cheryl Sandburg ever work for a woman? I wonder what would have or would happen if she did.
10
As a successful career woman, I feel compelled to say: what an ill-timed, minutiae-focused, inconsequential op-ed. Don't we have bigger things to worry about in the world right now? Britain has left the EU (Brexit). Cameron hs stepped down. The globe appears to be returning to a terrifying era of arrogant and dangerous nationalism, suggesting an increased (even more terrifying) likelihood that Trump will win the U.S. Presidential election. I understand you feel that bemoaning gender inequality is your life's mission, Ms. Sandberg. Instead of issuing yet another feminist rant, please (please!) cast a wider net and direct your ambitious and industrious efforts towards preserving global economic stability. We need women leaders like you at the ready.
2
All humans, or almost all, male and female, young and old compete with other humans for limited access to scant resources.
It has little to do with biological sex or chosen gender. One sees the same competitive drive amongst our nearest relatives, the chimps. It's how the human species has evolved. It's who we are.
The NYT needs to engage more trained economists and evolutionary biologists to write on these topics and to provide a more informed, research based evaluation of the behaviour of our species.
It has little to do with biological sex or chosen gender. One sees the same competitive drive amongst our nearest relatives, the chimps. It's how the human species has evolved. It's who we are.
The NYT needs to engage more trained economists and evolutionary biologists to write on these topics and to provide a more informed, research based evaluation of the behaviour of our species.
3
As a successful career woman, I feel compelled to say: what an ill-timed, minutiae-focused, inconsequential op-ed. Don't we have bigger things to worry about in the world right now? Britain has left the EU (Brexit). Cameron has stepped down. The globe appears to be returning to a terrifying era of arrogant, dangerous nationalism and xenophobia, suggesting an increased (even more terrifying) likelihood that Trump will win the U.S. Presidential election.
We understand you feel that bemoaning gender inequality is your life's mission, Ms. Sandberg. Instead of issuing yet another feminist rant, please (please!) cast a wider net and direct your ambitious and industrious efforts towards preserving global economic stability. We need women leaders like you at the ready.
We understand you feel that bemoaning gender inequality is your life's mission, Ms. Sandberg. Instead of issuing yet another feminist rant, please (please!) cast a wider net and direct your ambitious and industrious efforts towards preserving global economic stability. We need women leaders like you at the ready.
9
I agree that we need to change the perception that women are catty and mean to other women. Sheryl Sandberg is talking about women in business, but I believe it goes beyond this. I believe it's important that young girls recognize that it's their female friends in life that will be critical to their health and happiness. I know that and the women who have shared their friendship stories of love and loss at www.friendshipdialogues know that too.
This editorial has hit close to home. Even very likely among the screeners hard at work in back rooms of the NYT.
Hard to admit, at no matter what level we are in the workplace, we may indeed be catty.
Have you ever complained about someone else because they've gotten something you don't have?
Have you ever gossiped unfavorably about someone else?
Have you ever flung a knife in someone else's back for sport?
If you've answered yes to any of the above, you are living proof it is not a myth, you are catty.
Hard to admit, at no matter what level we are in the workplace, we may indeed be catty.
Have you ever complained about someone else because they've gotten something you don't have?
Have you ever gossiped unfavorably about someone else?
Have you ever flung a knife in someone else's back for sport?
If you've answered yes to any of the above, you are living proof it is not a myth, you are catty.
4
I disagree with Ms. Sandberg. Catty men certainly exist.
9
"At school, we call them “mean girls” and later, we call them “catty” or “queen bees.” (What’s the derogatory male equivalent? It doesn’t exist.)"
This says it all. There are "catty" women but there is no (negative) linguistic description for the same behavior in men. Very interesting. What does that tell you?
This says it all. There are "catty" women but there is no (negative) linguistic description for the same behavior in men. Very interesting. What does that tell you?
2
Did the author write an article with someone, and then only put her name in the title? I must be missing something? Is that what is meant as catty?
4
All four of my women bosses have been completely and infuriatingly mean and punishing. Thankfully my two current bosses are men!
13
There seems to be an unspoken premise underlying much of this dicussion; namely, that women have a particular obligation to help female colleagues. That itself is rather sexist. Sandberg and Grant ask: "What's the derogatory male equivalent [to queen bee]? It doesn't exist." It doesn't exist because males are not expected to be particularly supportive of other males. When they do behave that way, it is rightly condemned as excluding women. The fact is that everyone has an obligation to help all of one's colleagues, regardless of gender, period.
10
Sorry Ms. Sandberg - you are way off base on this one. I am a HR professional and have been working in the career field for over 20 years. Sweeping generalizations aside, I have found the majority of "Queen Bees" to be insecure, vindictive, spiteful people who make themselves feel superior at the expense of others. Give me a male boss any day!!!!
14
(Comment on NY Times site because their facebook page is outdated)
My concern isn’t “cattiness;” it is the choices of American wymin, the group. Most wymin are not running for political office thereby politically disenfranchising themselves & the rest of us; too many wymin aren’t seeking economic leadership roles thereby economically disenfranchising themselves & the rest of us. Where are the educated wymin and the wymin with money to change all that? Why do American wymin seem apathetic to their own plight?
My concern isn’t “cattiness;” it is the choices of American wymin, the group. Most wymin are not running for political office thereby politically disenfranchising themselves & the rest of us; too many wymin aren’t seeking economic leadership roles thereby economically disenfranchising themselves & the rest of us. Where are the educated wymin and the wymin with money to change all that? Why do American wymin seem apathetic to their own plight?
It is really case by case. both men and women can feel threatened by very competent young women in the ranks.
3
This is the weirdest article I've ever read. Sheryl Sandberg suddenly discovers something she believes isn't true and somehow magically this translates into everyone else must believe in it as well. This article seems to be entirely an exercise in putting up an argument so she can knock it down.
I think there is a name for that kind of argument.
I think there is a name for that kind of argument.
9
I am agreement with her thinking. However, I do not think athletes are good examples. There is, in individual as opposed to team sports, a clean justice, empty of petty politics. Examples: singles tennis matches, solo sailing races.
1
Men do not get penalized when they support diversity by race or gender, but women do.
My theory as to why this is true: men seek ultimate control and authority. They hold the ultimate power: the ability to define the rules of the game. Only actions by them are credible and legitimate. When women and/or people of color try to define the rules, they must be penalized, because that is beyond their allowed authority.
My theory as to why this is true: men seek ultimate control and authority. They hold the ultimate power: the ability to define the rules of the game. Only actions by them are credible and legitimate. When women and/or people of color try to define the rules, they must be penalized, because that is beyond their allowed authority.
6
Ms. Sandberg, rather than assuming the presence of a myth based on small studies, try this: Take a $40K/year job for one year and work for a woman in a majority female office or small business. Try living what you're saying doesn't exist. Try working with those "mean girls" day in and day out.
Then come back and write an article based on actual experience and truth so you can stop feeding women these ideas that what they experience, how they work and how they live are wrong simply because it's not what you experience in your microcosm.
You're just as out of touch here as you were in your book, which you've admitted. Wasn't that your first clue that maybe you don't know what you're talking about?
Then come back and write an article based on actual experience and truth so you can stop feeding women these ideas that what they experience, how they work and how they live are wrong simply because it's not what you experience in your microcosm.
You're just as out of touch here as you were in your book, which you've admitted. Wasn't that your first clue that maybe you don't know what you're talking about?
41
My experience is that there is good, bad and everything in between when it comes to bosses who are men, women, black, brown and every other shade of color of human beings.
The worse are social-paths that can be of either gender. Currently I work for 2, one of each gender.
The worse are social-paths that can be of either gender. Currently I work for 2, one of each gender.
5
We should definitely "stop judging the same behavior more harshly when it comes from a woman rather than a man," but the feminist thinkers that I found most inspiring were those who wanted to change how power works in the system more fundamentally. Feminism is at its best when it critiques power, not seeks it, and it has failed if all we're seeing now is that it's women's turn to be in power and do essentially what the men have always done.
18
One woman at a company I worked for in the course of nearly 40 years in a traditionally male-dominated industry stands out. She was notorious for not allowing well-qualified women in the ranks she'd been promoted from to work temporarily in a supervisory capacity; nor would she allow them to interview for promotions. Meanwhile, men with flimsy records and known poor judgment, along with women with little or no industry records at all were promoted throughout her department.
It wasn't a case of there being only one seat at the table; far from it, there were high-ranking women in other departments who knew their jobs from experience and did them well. It was more akin to "If I promote you, not only will your level of knowledge and understanding of the industry make me look bad, you have enough experience and common sense to make your own decisions without me telling you what to do."
After pushing all the qualified women away, along with most of the intelligent and qualified men (occasionally one slipped through), the internal contradictions and culture she and others encouraged finally exploded into public view a few years ago. She was shoved out the door the moment she was eligible for retirement, but the damage was done; it will take years for the company to regain the public trust and approval it once had.
Once she left, the logjam broke. Younger women we've mentored are being promoted, and the company is catching up to the rest of the industry in promoting women.
It wasn't a case of there being only one seat at the table; far from it, there were high-ranking women in other departments who knew their jobs from experience and did them well. It was more akin to "If I promote you, not only will your level of knowledge and understanding of the industry make me look bad, you have enough experience and common sense to make your own decisions without me telling you what to do."
After pushing all the qualified women away, along with most of the intelligent and qualified men (occasionally one slipped through), the internal contradictions and culture she and others encouraged finally exploded into public view a few years ago. She was shoved out the door the moment she was eligible for retirement, but the damage was done; it will take years for the company to regain the public trust and approval it once had.
Once she left, the logjam broke. Younger women we've mentored are being promoted, and the company is catching up to the rest of the industry in promoting women.
5
You start out saying that the catty or unsupportive behavior does not exist (statistically), but then go on to point out situations (such as when there is a male CEO--gee, how common is that?--or when there is perceived to be a seat at the table for only one woman--again, how common?) where women are indeed threatened by other women. Those situations are where most of us live.
I currently have a female VP--for the second time, at two different organizations. Neither is worse than the worst male boss I have had (though he was pretty bad--narcissistic and corrupt). But the first was easily threatened and completely unsupportive and the second is an alarming careerist with a husband who works at home who thinks everyone else should be able to work just like she does. Which is like a man with a spouse at home. She has actively blocked promotions of others to different departments in order to keep her own regime whole. This woman thinks that be climbing the ladder she makes strides for other women. But since the way she does it is to act just like (traditional) man, she undermines us all (men, too, who have working wives).
Not buying it.
I currently have a female VP--for the second time, at two different organizations. Neither is worse than the worst male boss I have had (though he was pretty bad--narcissistic and corrupt). But the first was easily threatened and completely unsupportive and the second is an alarming careerist with a husband who works at home who thinks everyone else should be able to work just like she does. Which is like a man with a spouse at home. She has actively blocked promotions of others to different departments in order to keep her own regime whole. This woman thinks that be climbing the ladder she makes strides for other women. But since the way she does it is to act just like (traditional) man, she undermines us all (men, too, who have working wives).
Not buying it.
4
Nice piece. I have felt blessed throughout my life by the friendship of other strong, ethical women - both in the workplace and in my social world. I cringe when either a man or a woman reverts to the cliche of the catty woman or the catty girl. Thank you for calling out this presumption and for highlighting, once again, the way the same behavior is described differently depending on whether the person doing the behavior is male or female, black or white.
3
OK, there are a lot of commentators who had a bad female boss experience. But the point is, men get away with worse. And in my experience, men feel entitled to have other people doing all the real work for them in the first instance, which is why they don't have a problem with stealing credit for work they didn't do.
7
Attractiveness is a factor that isn't mentioned in this op-ed.
5
Male or Female challenging personality types exist in business. I agree end the Catty Woman label. Best boss I ever had was a women, she hired me at a second firm and I would work for her again. I just did my best to head hunt a former female coworker to my current firm. Women do help women. Another woman I mentored and advanced, given the opportunity did her best to ruin my reputation within the firm. It is the individual personality not gender that rules a person's nasty actions in business.
1
Should it has male equivalence: "marking territory" being a (nicer) way to describe what happens to me in the office everyday.
2
The biggest enemy of women is not powerful women. The queen bee is either indifferent to other women, or she pitifully needs to be doted on because she believes she is royalty.
Au contraire, the biggest enemy of women festers at the lower end of the totem pole. That's where the malcontent, lazy, forever-whining entitled gals in the "good ol' girls club" reside. There they spew a viciously mean-spirited froth of unsavory remarks about other women unchecked. That is until the moment they wield a knife deep into the spine of an unsuspecting sister, then they are filled to the rim with glee.
Typically they knife the same sister who helped them out of trouble earlier, filled out paperwork, mentored them in new skills, recommended them for promotion, or hired them in the first place.
But devoid of any appreciation or introspection, the malcontent's sole purpose is to destroy other women who work hard and are honest in their dealings. Just because they feel like it.
Malcontents suck up mightily to higher ups - male and female - then say scathing things behind their backs. But, the higher ups are blind to their game, and will side with a malcontent every time in taking out a mid level or senior level sister in the workplace. God forbid, we can't anger the already angry gals because they're indispensable.
It's really quite an art form - not the "myth" of the catty woman - rather the fact that she is very very much alive and ready to pounce!
Au contraire, the biggest enemy of women festers at the lower end of the totem pole. That's where the malcontent, lazy, forever-whining entitled gals in the "good ol' girls club" reside. There they spew a viciously mean-spirited froth of unsavory remarks about other women unchecked. That is until the moment they wield a knife deep into the spine of an unsuspecting sister, then they are filled to the rim with glee.
Typically they knife the same sister who helped them out of trouble earlier, filled out paperwork, mentored them in new skills, recommended them for promotion, or hired them in the first place.
But devoid of any appreciation or introspection, the malcontent's sole purpose is to destroy other women who work hard and are honest in their dealings. Just because they feel like it.
Malcontents suck up mightily to higher ups - male and female - then say scathing things behind their backs. But, the higher ups are blind to their game, and will side with a malcontent every time in taking out a mid level or senior level sister in the workplace. God forbid, we can't anger the already angry gals because they're indispensable.
It's really quite an art form - not the "myth" of the catty woman - rather the fact that she is very very much alive and ready to pounce!
10
Cattiness may be passé in the authors' circles, but on the lower rungs of the ladder it's alive and well. Women with power are still aberrational. As long as the ladies are 2nd class, there will be claws.
5
My recently retired 67 year-old mother who worked in Health Care for 35 years told me on numerous occasions she would rather work for a man any day of the week - though that is just one person's experience.
7
The catty woman problem in workplaces I have been in does not come from managers but from coworkers. I have been in clerical work all my life, since a disability prevents me from finding jobs more commensurate with my intellectual abilities, and I have been bullied, undercut and gossiped about almost everywhere I have been.
12
You know something, it has always been as Bette Davis, (playing Margo Channing), said in "All About Eve"
"That's what ALL women have in common; being a woman. Nothing else matters except that you can look up at six o'clock and there he is."
As a woman of African descent in America, I realize nothing matters except if you are considered White in America. Unfortunately, the same thing goes as for being a woman in a male-dominated society.
Every woman I have ever known or worked under go for the kill.
"That's what ALL women have in common; being a woman. Nothing else matters except that you can look up at six o'clock and there he is."
As a woman of African descent in America, I realize nothing matters except if you are considered White in America. Unfortunately, the same thing goes as for being a woman in a male-dominated society.
Every woman I have ever known or worked under go for the kill.
1
Now that gender-specific locker rooms are going the way of buggy whips, maybe Ms. Sandberg will spend time in an environment where the "derogatory male equivalent" of "mean girls" is oft-spoken, but unprintable here.
11
Women should support each other, and many women do, but there are just enough Queen Bees, Wanna Bees and Mean Girls (of any age) to keep the stereotype alive.
18
My mother was a school teacher for 30 years. She was a early backer of the ERA. It really bothered her that women principals were harder to deal with. When I would ask her why, she would say men just want it done, well. Women want to tell you how to do it and watch your every move. That was from her not me.
13
Powerful women are good for non-powerful women? I would be more impressed hearing that from the latter than the former. It just comes out as self-serving from someone like Ms. Sandberg. Karen's remarks (no. 1 comment at the moment) are more interesting.
13
Is it assumed the queen bee is a high level female in the workplace and catty women sit elsewhere? As a lifelong working female, I've seen too many catty women gossiping and spreading trash, mostly about women who don't belong in their club. The queen bee is an entitled type at every level. If she is also catty, it's dangerous.
Sorry to say this is pervasive. People lose sight of why they are here and cannot resist being petty and harsh. Backstabbing is the norm most places. Unfortunately.
Sorry to say this is pervasive. People lose sight of why they are here and cannot resist being petty and harsh. Backstabbing is the norm most places. Unfortunately.
2
Some of my bosses have been incompetent. Some have been mean. But I've not found a difference between men and women bosses other than I've had many more male than female. However, the only boss who's said I was hard to get along with was an incompetent woman who felt threatened by me. I believe she was more sensitive about which button to push to make another woman uncomfortable.
7
Nope. I am not buying this at all. Some women are just mean. Being bullied by a female co-worker, slightly senior, who clearly resented me from my first day at my job has been the most difficult challenge of my professional career. My whole strategy at work was to stay quiet and invisible in an effort to stop being her target. This article is way too dismissive of the kind of workplace bullying that, personally, makes women like me want to quit working altogether.
37
What hurts so much in reading your comment is to know that you were harassed into not being able to demonstrate your own genius and brilliance - which was likely considerable since female work assassins go after the talented. Don't give up - no one should steal your voice again.
3
A virtual bouquet and a hug to you, Belle. What an appropriate name for someone who makes such a beautiful and loving comment to a complete stranger.
1
'At school, we call them “mean girls” and later, we call them “catty” or “queen bees.” (What’s the derogatory male equivalent? It doesn’t exist.'
Not so. He's called 'the school bully', or more formally 'School Bully'. As in, 'School Bully, may I be permitted to lick clean your toe caps?'
Another example of a common supplication to School Bully is petitioning School Bully for permission to breathe out after 10:30 pm. Typically, School Bully gets whatever he wants: alcohol; cigarettes; and the company of an unmarried Philippine woman. School Bully addresses other pupils with epithets such as 'you dismally untalented little creep' and 'you spotty little oik'.
For more on this fascinating cultural phenomenon, see Tomkinson's Schooldays.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ripping_Yarns_episodes
Not so. He's called 'the school bully', or more formally 'School Bully'. As in, 'School Bully, may I be permitted to lick clean your toe caps?'
Another example of a common supplication to School Bully is petitioning School Bully for permission to breathe out after 10:30 pm. Typically, School Bully gets whatever he wants: alcohol; cigarettes; and the company of an unmarried Philippine woman. School Bully addresses other pupils with epithets such as 'you dismally untalented little creep' and 'you spotty little oik'.
For more on this fascinating cultural phenomenon, see Tomkinson's Schooldays.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ripping_Yarns_episodes
10
Women can be extremely unpleasant to other women in the work environment whether it is in the corporate world or teaching profession. They feel other women are a threat and feel insecure in their positions. They can be mean and belittling and no amount of work is sufficient or good enough. Men appreciate women workers more then women do and it makes working more pleasant and enjoyable. Women can also be moody and mercurial which does not make for a satisfactory work environment. Many women were low level employees once but oh how quickly they forget.
21
Your argument doesn't work. A woman at the top needs allies and women are less of a threat to her because they are less likely to be chosen as her successor. Below CEO? Women hesitate to make alliances with other women because they want an advantage. Upper executive women usually wear short skirts and heels. They aren't do that to appeal to women.
8
Good article, bad title. While bullies can be either male or female, the female bully certainly exists. And yes, while many women do support each other, there are plenty of women with sharp elbows, a tenuous relationship with the truth and desire to be top dog regardless of the carnage they create. These woman can be managers, or are tolerated by managers and are especially pernicious because their bullying and undermining is subtle. Frankly I'll take the make bully. At least you'll know when your under siege.
16
Unfortunately, the statistics and examples cited by Ms. Sandberg appear more supportive of the notion that we females still have a lot more work to do before our "queen bees" disappear. It's easy for a woman who has made CEO - likely due to a culture that obviously values women - to advocate for other women. In contrast, the culture in a company that promotes "one woman" to "senior manager" (as distinguished from CEO?) would not likely reward such senior manager for advocating for other women. Ms. Sandberg, in fact, makes this point: "A talented woman presents a threat [to a more senior woman] if there's only one seat for a woman at the table." Unfortunately, businesses remain vastly male-dominated, and, as such, the resulting too-few opportunities for women for a seat at the table continue to perpetuate the self-damaging queen bee behavior. Nonetheless, I share Ms Sandberg's hope that, in time, and as more women populate senior business positions, "queen bees will go the way of the fax machine."
5
A great piece, but Ms Sandberg fails to address where women are still absolutely brutal to each other - the career woman bs the stay at home mom. Professional women who never paused their career sadly continue to be the most critical and judgmental people toward women who did hit pause. I keep waiting for someone of Ms Sandbergs stature to raise this issue and discuss how their companies can help onboard and mentor re-entering women. Until companies welcome qualified,, Professional women back - upper management will continue to be mostly male.
19
I am a life long "career" woman not lucky enough to have a family. I help women in the workplace who have families and children. That includes making sure they have sufficient time off for maternity leave, vacations, child care, and medical situations. I have also promoted them on time.
Unfortunately, I have found by and large women with families take advantage of others who do not have such obligations because they are young, older empty nesters, or the career focused person who missed that boat. Generally moms at work play the pity card when they are overprogrmmed. They leave work early and come in late more than anyone else, and assume it doesn't matter. They leave work unfinished for others to complete, even on the most urgent deadline sensitive cases. Trouble is they don't appreciate or acknowledge others are constantly picking up their slack. This is frustrating for others in the workplace who work harder all the time.
Reentrants left work at a skill level. When they return after a hiatus of years, they can have stale skills. That's why they come back in equal or slightly lesser jobs. It's a harsh reality.
Frankly there's nothing so great about working. Yes it pays the bills. But time off to be with family is priceless. Though it will never equate in the marketplace, there's no reason for reentrants to be discouraged. They just need to recognize how frustrated their coworkers are with them if they short sheet them all the time.
Unfortunately, I have found by and large women with families take advantage of others who do not have such obligations because they are young, older empty nesters, or the career focused person who missed that boat. Generally moms at work play the pity card when they are overprogrmmed. They leave work early and come in late more than anyone else, and assume it doesn't matter. They leave work unfinished for others to complete, even on the most urgent deadline sensitive cases. Trouble is they don't appreciate or acknowledge others are constantly picking up their slack. This is frustrating for others in the workplace who work harder all the time.
Reentrants left work at a skill level. When they return after a hiatus of years, they can have stale skills. That's why they come back in equal or slightly lesser jobs. It's a harsh reality.
Frankly there's nothing so great about working. Yes it pays the bills. But time off to be with family is priceless. Though it will never equate in the marketplace, there's no reason for reentrants to be discouraged. They just need to recognize how frustrated their coworkers are with them if they short sheet them all the time.
9
" It’s a natural way we react to discrimination when we belong to a nondominant group. Fearing that their group isn’t valued, some members distance themselves from their own kind. They internalize cultural biases and avoid affiliating with groups that are seen as having low status."
Strange how a woman states this human response when compared to how a man, GREG HOWARD, states it in the recent article printed in the NYT Magazine: Why 'Transcending Race' Is a Lie. The difference is, of course, that a man, whatever his ethnic background, is still was born a male with special dispensation to be MALE! Whereas a woman is JUST a woman, sort of like a half-man. Maybe even less than half depending what culture one is talking about.
Strange how a woman states this human response when compared to how a man, GREG HOWARD, states it in the recent article printed in the NYT Magazine: Why 'Transcending Race' Is a Lie. The difference is, of course, that a man, whatever his ethnic background, is still was born a male with special dispensation to be MALE! Whereas a woman is JUST a woman, sort of like a half-man. Maybe even less than half depending what culture one is talking about.
4
Women are divided. It's contrived. Stay-at-home moms vs working women. Anti-abortion vs Pro-choice. Married vs single. Catholic vs Christian. Women vs woman president
Fertile vs infertile. It's all played to keep women from joining forces and electing women senators, governors, congress in the number representing the majority of the US population.
Fertile vs infertile. It's all played to keep women from joining forces and electing women senators, governors, congress in the number representing the majority of the US population.
7
Catholics are Christians. They were the first followers of Christ. Fertile vs. infertile? This is something that people use to judge and evaluate? Since when please? I'm not sure why you argue that these divisions prevent women from running for and holding elective office. Women are independent thinkers from different backgrounds and , I believe and trust, form their political opinions in complex ways. Why would or should they vote as a bloc on the basis of gender?
Judging by the many comments disagreeing with Sheryl's writing, I suggest we need to once again form consciousness-raising groups, so we can educate each other on what we need to do to change our own behaviors and the behaviors of other women and of men, too. I have been very lucky in my own career and have tried to be a good mentor to women, both professional and staff, as well as men, and I hope I succeeded in those efforts. But obviously, we all need to do more to make women and men understand that women are quire capable, and, too, those who have skin colors other than white are capable as well.
21
With all due respect, no amount of consciousness-raising will enable me, or anyone else, to change someone else's behavior.
You can change the way you respond to someone. You cannot change another person.
You can change the way you respond to someone. You cannot change another person.
1
I have had equal parts horrible, nasty female managers and male managers. My experience is it's not the gender, rather the make up of the person.
71
Sorry ... Maybe I have been cursed but I would rather work for a male, my experience with the Mean Girls has done me in. Many working women I know have expressed the same preference. The Mean Girls combined with female Millennials .... #runningawayscreaming
14
Ms. Sandberg is correct about female insecurity caused by the prevailing power structure. But she's very, very wrong about the Queen Bee syndrome not being prevalent in the workplace, particularly for attractive, capable women. - even today.
I can recall a highly compensated boss of mine, a recognized leader in her field, making an extremely derogatory non-work related remark about one of her subordinates (gorgeous, married to a powerful man), following that up with the bitter statement that "life isn't fair." Fortunately this unsuspecting subordinatevwas protected from harm by her powerful husband (ha!) but others were not so lucky.
The three times I worked for a female boss were nightmares and I must admit I had no awareness of this phenomenon when I entered the workforce. But it is very, very real - I've heard 1,000 stories. So sad that women can't rise together but maybe As women gain power this will go the way of the corset.
I can recall a highly compensated boss of mine, a recognized leader in her field, making an extremely derogatory non-work related remark about one of her subordinates (gorgeous, married to a powerful man), following that up with the bitter statement that "life isn't fair." Fortunately this unsuspecting subordinatevwas protected from harm by her powerful husband (ha!) but others were not so lucky.
The three times I worked for a female boss were nightmares and I must admit I had no awareness of this phenomenon when I entered the workforce. But it is very, very real - I've heard 1,000 stories. So sad that women can't rise together but maybe As women gain power this will go the way of the corset.
8
Having women in positions of power is not necessarily bad for other women, nor is it necessarily good. As a woman, I'm tired of these generalizations (for instance, a world run by women would be less warlike, more concerned w people). True equality will come when we look at people as individuals, not by gender.
11
I worked for almost three decades in a male-dominated industry. Almost without exception, the women in upper-level positions were miserable human beings -- almost to the point of being pathological. They were manipulative, territorial, emotionally volatile and never supported other women. The worst bosses I had were other women. I am a lifelong feminist, but I dreaded going to work in the years that I had to deal with them.
This article provides some explanations that concur with what I came to believe: that when there are only a few seats at the Big Table allotted for women, anyone who is ambitious wants to make sure that she's occupying one of them and will do whatever's necessary to eliminate the competition. It's a rationale, but it doesn't fix the damage these women do to others in pursuit of their single-minded self-interest (And for what? On a deathbed, nobody ever says "I wish I had spent more time at the office.")
This article provides some explanations that concur with what I came to believe: that when there are only a few seats at the Big Table allotted for women, anyone who is ambitious wants to make sure that she's occupying one of them and will do whatever's necessary to eliminate the competition. It's a rationale, but it doesn't fix the damage these women do to others in pursuit of their single-minded self-interest (And for what? On a deathbed, nobody ever says "I wish I had spent more time at the office.")
61
(Not Mark) Women in lower echelons jobs can be just as bad. The worst place I ever worked was a small dental office, only 4 women besides me (the dentist was male). 2 were front office, 2 were dental assistants and I was the office manager. It was awful, High School was a picnic compared to this office. They were generally nasty to work with, while pretending to be nice, etc. Awful! That being said, the worst managers I ever had were all women. I used to dread moving to a new office, on the chance my supervisor would be female.
1
Are you kidding? Of course there are derogatory terms for the male equivalent of queen bees. BSD for example has been around for a long time. Big swinging short for Richard. These are the domineering, competitive men who have to be alpha at all costs. They often marry queen bees and become power couples.
I think Sheryl Sandberg has been very fortunate in life, except for her recent tragic loss of her husband. She rose to the top in an industry that is particularly hard on women. But I don't think that makes her an expert on how other women should think or act, and unfortunately that seems to be how she is being marketed and is marketing herself.
I think Sheryl Sandberg has been very fortunate in life, except for her recent tragic loss of her husband. She rose to the top in an industry that is particularly hard on women. But I don't think that makes her an expert on how other women should think or act, and unfortunately that seems to be how she is being marketed and is marketing herself.
21
Somehow, in the vale of suffering that is this world, when human history often seems - in Orwell's phrase - like a boot stamping on a human face, it is hard for me to feel much sympathy for women like Sheryl Sandberg who are both privileged and feel driven to disseminate feminist propaganda, in order to battle racist/sexist "stereotypes." A couple of decades ago, this sort of article would hardly have qualified as cocktail chatter. Now it is published in The New York Times. How our standards have declined!
11
Great to see formal research on this and related subjects.
I have to say, however, as a secondary observer male MD, that the "catty woman" is alive and well in healthcare. I watch nurse bullying on a daily basis. My sense from weekend coverage of community hospitals is that nurse bullying is worse in academic, tertiary referral centers. As the Medical Director of a busy inpatient subspecialty unit I probably intervene twice a year, with the help of the Nursing Manager, to address an incident involving subspecialty MD fellows. Nine times out ten, it's a female RN bullying a female fellow.
"Nurses eat their young."
See http://www.marieclaire.com/culture/news/a14211/mean-girls-of-the-er/
What I have ALSO observed is the profound effect that individual nursing managers can have on the culture of an individual clinical unit, both good and bad. As a resident, I worked in the MICU of two adjacent hospitals - one MICU was an island of collegiality, respect, and good medical care - the other, an absolute nightmare, with a quintessential catty woman at the helm.
I have to say, however, as a secondary observer male MD, that the "catty woman" is alive and well in healthcare. I watch nurse bullying on a daily basis. My sense from weekend coverage of community hospitals is that nurse bullying is worse in academic, tertiary referral centers. As the Medical Director of a busy inpatient subspecialty unit I probably intervene twice a year, with the help of the Nursing Manager, to address an incident involving subspecialty MD fellows. Nine times out ten, it's a female RN bullying a female fellow.
"Nurses eat their young."
See http://www.marieclaire.com/culture/news/a14211/mean-girls-of-the-er/
What I have ALSO observed is the profound effect that individual nursing managers can have on the culture of an individual clinical unit, both good and bad. As a resident, I worked in the MICU of two adjacent hospitals - one MICU was an island of collegiality, respect, and good medical care - the other, an absolute nightmare, with a quintessential catty woman at the helm.
18
Certain women, like certain men, are bad for everyone in power. Carly Fiorina. for example. hurt HP, and all suffered.
Forget gender; it's about money.
Forget gender; it's about money.
6
My most amazing bosses have been women, and some of my worst bosses have been women too. The amazing ones were truly the powerful ones: the highest achievers, Ivy-Leaguers, with enlightened perspectives, who truly wanted to see women under them succeed. It has been inspiring and I'm still friends with all of them. My bad female bosses were usually insecure and had worked too long within a broken system to realize it. They didn't just lash out at me but at everyone. They usually end up getting fired.
6
I'm guessing that Elizabeth Warren is no picnic to work for.
3
Why? She seems like a very thoughtful, incisive, purpose driven, accomplished, admirable person. I would always prefer to work for a purpose driven boss rather than a power driven one. I attended a seminar many decades ago about motivation at work for women. I emphasize that this was many years ago. But the presenter said that for most women there was a mix of psychological needs at work: Affiliative driven-need for social connection, community, to be valued, liked, part of the team, Purpose driven: the mission was most important, or Power driven-needs no elucidation. Problems and conflicts arise when the affiliative driven one gets her feelings hurt, the purpose driven one gets frustrated by nonsense getting in the way of the mission and the power driven one is so busy looking out for herself that she compromises the mission by upsetting or undercutting the team. Solution of course is know thyself, focus on the mission, recognize that power is necessary but may veer toward destructive, and remember that everyone should be careful of everyone elses' feelings to a reasonable degree. This schema has actually helped me a lot over the years with both male and female bosses. And yes some of the women were doozies.
2
Are women helping women OK in the U.S., or only in Norway? Look, if you put two men in a room doing the same task, you have a competition - whether they are playing poker in a den or suturing trauma patients in an ER.
We (men) are hard wired to make anything we are doing in groups of two or more into a survival activity. Add a female in the room and it can become bloodthirsty.
Old men mentoring younger men is almost anti-evolutionary - even though it is exactly the kind of behavior we must will ourselves to engage in for our
species to evolve. Turns out, the act mentoring (even for an American male) feels almost as good as winning. Might be hope for Homo Sapiens after all.
We (men) are hard wired to make anything we are doing in groups of two or more into a survival activity. Add a female in the room and it can become bloodthirsty.
Old men mentoring younger men is almost anti-evolutionary - even though it is exactly the kind of behavior we must will ourselves to engage in for our
species to evolve. Turns out, the act mentoring (even for an American male) feels almost as good as winning. Might be hope for Homo Sapiens after all.
1
"In business and in government, research supports the notion that women create opportunities for women."
"Queen bees aren’t a reason for inequality but rather a result of inequality. "
So first they are a mythical unicorn - then they are a patriarchal plot - the authors need to choose an argument and forego the shotgun treatment.
If a species has Books written about them, TV shows made about them, Movies made about them and are a staple in Modern Culture - maybe they are a myth - but maybe not - most likely the latter.
"Queen bees aren’t a reason for inequality but rather a result of inequality. "
So first they are a mythical unicorn - then they are a patriarchal plot - the authors need to choose an argument and forego the shotgun treatment.
If a species has Books written about them, TV shows made about them, Movies made about them and are a staple in Modern Culture - maybe they are a myth - but maybe not - most likely the latter.
2
This woman v. woman nonsense is something made up by men. Some men just can't handle a female boss because it's outside their experience and they're unable to adapt. Authoritarian and sexism makes some men bad bosses for women. As for women's rants on this thread saying women bosses are the worst, Shakespeare said it first:
"The fault, dear Brutus, is (not in the sex of our bosses,) but we ourselves, that we are underlings.
"The fault, dear Brutus, is (not in the sex of our bosses,) but we ourselves, that we are underlings.
7
In industries where sexism is common, and let's face it, that's most of them, women like to work for other women. Thus a woman in a high-level position will attract talented women candidates. I'd bet the same goes for minorities.
In short, if women are hiring more women and minorities more group-members, the cause might not be racial or sexist bias on the part of the hiring manager, but their ability to attract more talented candidates like them.
In short, if women are hiring more women and minorities more group-members, the cause might not be racial or sexist bias on the part of the hiring manager, but their ability to attract more talented candidates like them.
6
A fundamental duality implicit in the logic of this argument misses the complex subtleties of hierarchical female relationships.
My best mentor (in graduate school) was my worse mentor; my best boss (who hired me) was my worse boss (even though she was not the one under which I "retired.")
It is not a binary. It is not black and white. It is not, Ms. Sandberg, a 1 or a 0. Until we address the ambivalence of female relationships we will miss the boat of the complexity of these relationships in the workplace.
My best mentor (in graduate school) was my worse mentor; my best boss (who hired me) was my worse boss (even though she was not the one under which I "retired.")
It is not a binary. It is not black and white. It is not, Ms. Sandberg, a 1 or a 0. Until we address the ambivalence of female relationships we will miss the boat of the complexity of these relationships in the workplace.
6
I worked for what I would describe as a terrible woman boss (cruel, belittling, demeaning, as others have said), but the irony is she actually gave me real responsibility and didn't expect that I would just be her hand maiden for my whole career. On the other hand, the male bosses I've had have been utterly professional, but all seem to regard me as the cute sidekick that soothes whatever guilt they have about not having enough women in the office. I'd take that woman boss any day.
20
Women are socialized to collaborate, men are socialized to publicly compete. This is changing of course, but historically this aspect of gender socialization has been heavily embedded in cultural practices and institutions across most if not all societies. As elite competitive athletes, Therese Johaug and Marit Bjorgen are likely comfortable with their identities as competitors. They most likely see healthy competition as a normal and enjoyable part of life. Arguably, this is one reason sports are good for women. They teach women and men that it is okay for women to be competitive, and that competition can be rewarding and fun. These shifting attitudes are testament to the importance of Title IX and the passage of other similar measures which allow women to participate in parts of society historically reserved only for boys and men.
9
The myth of the secure professional woman, punctuated once again.
1
The women you bring as examples are mostly professional women or are self-employed- not hourly workers in a very different environment, I would suggest you add " P.S. Your mileage may vary. "
12
If we as women cannot respect the sisterhood than we would loose so easily, but the strength of the sisterhood is that strong that a lot of men feel threatened by it. So, there is the myth as to divide and conquer.
Keep the sisterhood alive and there will be no stopping us.
Keep the sisterhood alive and there will be no stopping us.
6
In my various careers, I've only had one female boss, and she filled some of these negative attributes splendidly. Women under her were miserable, and either put up with it or disappeared. Men didn't seem to mind; I found that if I did my job well, I could cheerfully agree with everything she said and then do what I pleased. However--she was very knowledgable, competent and honest.
That said, the rest of my superiors have been men, and ran the gamut from god-like to worthless. I don't agree that there is "no derogatory equivalent" for males. There are many splendid terms, mostly not printed in the NYT.
Whenever you run a headline about some really despicable (male) jerk, there's a good chance he's somebody's boss.
That said, the rest of my superiors have been men, and ran the gamut from god-like to worthless. I don't agree that there is "no derogatory equivalent" for males. There are many splendid terms, mostly not printed in the NYT.
Whenever you run a headline about some really despicable (male) jerk, there's a good chance he's somebody's boss.
11
A privileged woman boss arguing that the privileged women bosses are better bosses for women than myth has it? What a surprise! I hope she does not get carpal tunnel syndrome from patting herself on the back.
I am amazed how women bosses whose power and riches allow them great flexibility in childcare, etc think they can speak for average women executives, much less clerical women. Or that their women subordinates would give them honest opinions on that topic.
As Wendy Wasserstein wrote in The Heidi Chronicles, the 70's ideal that women would look out for each other proved to be a myth.
I am amazed how women bosses whose power and riches allow them great flexibility in childcare, etc think they can speak for average women executives, much less clerical women. Or that their women subordinates would give them honest opinions on that topic.
As Wendy Wasserstein wrote in The Heidi Chronicles, the 70's ideal that women would look out for each other proved to be a myth.
11
Forget catty.
The two women bosses I've had in my now-16 year career have been psycho.
Today, "I love you! You're the best!"
Tomorrow: "I'm furious with you and I won't tell you why, but I am going to treat every question, email or other communication as if you are a total moron."
Next week: "I love you! You're the best!"
With a male boss, I just seem to know where I stand from day to day.
The two women bosses I've had in my now-16 year career have been psycho.
Today, "I love you! You're the best!"
Tomorrow: "I'm furious with you and I won't tell you why, but I am going to treat every question, email or other communication as if you are a total moron."
Next week: "I love you! You're the best!"
With a male boss, I just seem to know where I stand from day to day.
4
Despite my name, I'm female. I've had both male and female bosses, and I can tell you definitively: female bosses are the worst. No male boss has ever treated me so badly as female bosses.
One male boss offered to baby-sit my newborn baby.
As it happens, I was also a "boss" -- of 13 female technicians. Most of them cried when I told that I was leaving the company (due to the decision of a female boss, who wouldn't let me work part-time when I had small children). I adored my colleagues and treated them with respect that they had never experienced during their previous male bosses.
One male boss offered to baby-sit my newborn baby.
As it happens, I was also a "boss" -- of 13 female technicians. Most of them cried when I told that I was leaving the company (due to the decision of a female boss, who wouldn't let me work part-time when I had small children). I adored my colleagues and treated them with respect that they had never experienced during their previous male bosses.
4
NEWSFLASH: Men are just as catty--just express it differently...did you notice cat fights during the presidential debates????? (Most of whom were men)
The list goes on and on.
The list goes on and on.
5
“At school, we call them ‘mean girls’ and later, we call them ‘catty’ or ‘queen bees.’ (What’s the derogatory male equivalent? It doesn’t exist.)” In point of fact it does: almost every slur for a homosexual when applied to a heterosexual is used to convey just this meaning.
This might be off topic, but I wonder how Hillary, or any woman candidate would be received if they went around insulting anyone and everyone as the repugnant Trump is doing each and every time he opens his big mouth?
13
I recently was in Mendocino, California, a liberal enclave whose denizens have had the foresight to protect their lovely little town by getting it on the national register of historic places. Their cohort has also lobbied hard to protect the Headlands as a national environmental treasure. Looking around me, I saw the handiwork of my generation, we of the Summer of Love who were politically and environmentally committed in the Sixties.
Mendocino was regional headquarters for an impassioned Bernie Sanders movement (as you might expect). There was an organizing office and they had stationed a cart in front of the organically-correct supermarket, where greying ancients invited us to have our picture taken in front of a life-size facsimile of the Bernie, tricked out in a suit jacket.
When I told one of the women that I was supporting Hillary, she sneered at me. "Do you know," she said, "when women get to that level of power, they are worse than men."
Ouch. What can you say? Sisterhood isn't powerful? Our bodies, not ourselves? I did tell her that I've risen high in the ranks of a traditionally male power structure and never had a woman whose hand wasn't reaching out for mine to pull or push me up the ladder.
But she wasn't going to listen to me. She walked away. An ideological diehard, to the bitter end.
Mendocino was regional headquarters for an impassioned Bernie Sanders movement (as you might expect). There was an organizing office and they had stationed a cart in front of the organically-correct supermarket, where greying ancients invited us to have our picture taken in front of a life-size facsimile of the Bernie, tricked out in a suit jacket.
When I told one of the women that I was supporting Hillary, she sneered at me. "Do you know," she said, "when women get to that level of power, they are worse than men."
Ouch. What can you say? Sisterhood isn't powerful? Our bodies, not ourselves? I did tell her that I've risen high in the ranks of a traditionally male power structure and never had a woman whose hand wasn't reaching out for mine to pull or push me up the ladder.
But she wasn't going to listen to me. She walked away. An ideological diehard, to the bitter end.
8
I'm a fifty-something male, and have for the most part had good experiences with a lifetime of female bosses, and myself don't even perceive the "cattiness" in the office. But over the years whenever the topic of female bosses has come up, women jump into the conversation with passion to say they hate working for women because they operate with a personal, not professional, bias. Always seemed strange to me, but it's been unanimous. I think I'll believe my wife, ex-wife, friends and colleagues over this article.
4
When I was in the military I had two male bosses who were abusive. Both times it was my boss's female supervisor who swooped in and put a stop to it. Sometimes I think women are more sensitive about righting injustices.
5
As a man, I must admit I tend to be more wary of having a woman boss, but I've had great and terrible of both genders.
In any case, props for giving some well-deserved publicity to two of the worlds' greatest athletes - Marit Bjorgen and Therese Johaug, virtually unknown in the U.S., though huge stars in Norway and in the world of cross-country skiing. They're probably going, "What, Sheryl Sandberg knows who I AM?"
In any case, props for giving some well-deserved publicity to two of the worlds' greatest athletes - Marit Bjorgen and Therese Johaug, virtually unknown in the U.S., though huge stars in Norway and in the world of cross-country skiing. They're probably going, "What, Sheryl Sandberg knows who I AM?"
5
My best boss and my worst boss were both women. I worked for the worst boss directly after the best one when I relocated to another state. I was doing the same work, in much the same way, though my first boss made herself aware of my efforts and contribution and let me know that a job well done was appreciated. Initially, I felt that the bad boss was someone who, once she had seen enough evidence of hard work and engagement, would acknowledge it. Instead, she mistrusted, denied, and took credit wherever she could.
The reality is that in some workplaces a boss can effectively alter the facts of your work performance, essentially making or breaking your career path. I say career path because if the boss feels so inclined, their bad assessment can follow you beyond the job. Patience, listening, and support are great qualities in anyone, especially fortunate to find in a boss, but they are not solely the province of women.
The reality is that in some workplaces a boss can effectively alter the facts of your work performance, essentially making or breaking your career path. I say career path because if the boss feels so inclined, their bad assessment can follow you beyond the job. Patience, listening, and support are great qualities in anyone, especially fortunate to find in a boss, but they are not solely the province of women.
3
It isn't a myth. But perhaps it isn't as prevalent among the Sandberg age-group as it was at other times when opportunities for women were much more limited.
6
The best boss I ever had was a woman. The three very worst were men. Talk about petty and back-biting.
I've had some great male bosses too. Second and Third place best are held by men.
I've had some great male bosses too. Second and Third place best are held by men.
3
This article focuses on the behavior of women in senior management. My own experience finds the brutal competition between women at the levels just below senior management. It is at this level where there are still many women competing for very few spots at the top. While you're competing with men and women for these spots, who can both be cruelly competitive, for me it has always stung more to see women who acted like friends become strangers. Ms. Sandberg is right to focus on senior management, because when more women are at the top there will be more opportunities and a trickle down effect for the rest of us battling it out below. Until then, put your armor on.
46
The corporate work culture has been developed for men, by men, for over a century. Women who've succeeded in this environment have had to overcome enormous bias and hostility. They have done so, from my experience, by being more man-like. I'm sure this isn't a natural state-of-being for them, which results in behaviour considered by colleagues to be less lady-like. catch 22 anybody?
So I encourage all women to:
- be yourself (whatever that may be)
- be shameless in promoting other women with bias (there is bias on the other side)
- speak up
- support one another (in a mans domain, women can be isolated easily to turn on one another)
- DO NOT take advantage of mens weakness for flirtation (even subtle) and expect long-term progress. This happens far too often and is talked about far too little.
So I encourage all women to:
- be yourself (whatever that may be)
- be shameless in promoting other women with bias (there is bias on the other side)
- speak up
- support one another (in a mans domain, women can be isolated easily to turn on one another)
- DO NOT take advantage of mens weakness for flirtation (even subtle) and expect long-term progress. This happens far too often and is talked about far too little.
3
Generally speaking women like to mentor and help other women who report to them. When there is a queen bee, it really isn't her gender it is her incompetence. Incompetent people fear anyone with potential because they know they have reached their Peter Principle level. Although they won't admit it they know they are a fraud.
9
Perhaps it's telling the age of the writer but when we younger/youngish women hear the term QueenBee we think of Beyoncé. She is known as Queen Bee because she exerts (seems to) absolute control of her business, she empowers women and describes herself as a feminist. I think in business the term we fear more rhymes with itch. It weighs us down and too often it's used by both men and women to describe us. In my experience fellow women mentors have been instrumental in my success. Beyoncé too.
3
I went back to work in the 80s after 12 years out of the workplace. Women bosses and coworkers helped me acquire the technical skills to do my work better, and supported my advancement to a supervisor position within three years. I'm now retired after a wonderful late career where I was able to reach a level I never anticipated. To those women who do climb ladders, I will tell you that my greatest satisfaction now, looking back, is not just with the level I achieved but also with the women I was able to mentor on their career paths. In many cases, they had to leave my employment to continue their climb, but that was something I celebrated. If you pull the ladder up after you, you will miss so much personal satisfaction in the value of your contribution to the working world. Play it forward.
37
I have a hard time hanging my hat on the words of Sheryl Sandberg. I'm sure she is a talented individual but at a relatively young age has reached a career pinnacle that most of us (male or female) will never realize. That alone does not qualify her to be the arbiter of male/female dynamics in the workplace. I have by all means tried throughout my career to "lean in" . . . not because I knew what that meant . . . but because it is my personality/nature. . and in MOST (not all) cases I have paid a career price for it. Where it has served me well is with a boss who was secure, smart, and not threatened.
Because of her position she can lean in all she wants. . who is going to thwart her? She IS the Queen Bee and is coming at this subject from that perspective. How can she not.
I take this with a grain of salt. The way I see it is that there are functional and dysfunctional PEOPLE in the world . . who carry their personal baggage through life and become functional or dysfunctional bosses (male and female). The rest is the roll of the dice in who you get as a manager. If you've been around the work world long enough you cannot avoid the undermining, insecure, petty, back-stabbing ones. They are everywhere.
These people were probably the same way in kindergarten!
Because of her position she can lean in all she wants. . who is going to thwart her? She IS the Queen Bee and is coming at this subject from that perspective. How can she not.
I take this with a grain of salt. The way I see it is that there are functional and dysfunctional PEOPLE in the world . . who carry their personal baggage through life and become functional or dysfunctional bosses (male and female). The rest is the roll of the dice in who you get as a manager. If you've been around the work world long enough you cannot avoid the undermining, insecure, petty, back-stabbing ones. They are everywhere.
These people were probably the same way in kindergarten!
192
Thank you for your reply, which I find frankly authentic. It seems to me somewhat bizarre to assert that we are way off in our estimates of the number of troublesome female bosses. Impossible to really evaluate something like that; statistic lovers notwithstanding. It might be generous to say it takes all kinds. I wonder if it is all about functionality; might go for humanity, another hard thing to measure.
1
Well said, this ought to be the first paragraph in leadership seminars around the country. Secure, smart people in a management position can make all the difference in helping create a positive work environment, male or female. It just appears cliché as a "cat-fight" when it is charged with vitriol between women but is just as damaging to the recipient regardless of the gender makeup.
2
What needs to change is the "power over" male model for corporations and every other system. Change it to a "power with" model and the problems magically fade away. Good managers - male and female - have figured that out.
8
I've written countless opinions on these pages. I wrote one about Sheryl Sandberg quite some time ago and...surprise, surprise...it was deleted by the censors.Nevertheless, I'd very much like to comment on this piece.
Yet, I will not do so. I've learned my lesson...
Yet, I will not do so. I've learned my lesson...
8
Thank you for taking the time to tell us that you aren't going to say anything.
1
The Queen Bee behavior is gender-neutral. It is about insecurity and turf- protecting through backstabbing and undercutting others. When men engage in this kind of warfare, it is considered "just office politics". When women engage in it, it is another indication that women don't belong.
Truth is, management is to blame for not recognizing such destructive behavior and dealing with it effectively. Often they have put the man or woman into positions where they can't succeed and then turn a blind eye to problems until the situation becomes something that can't be easily fixed.
Truth is, management is to blame for not recognizing such destructive behavior and dealing with it effectively. Often they have put the man or woman into positions where they can't succeed and then turn a blind eye to problems until the situation becomes something that can't be easily fixed.
29
Omg yes the management that sees bad behavior and let's it go on.
1
Nicely put and very true.
1
I am a woman architect, and sadly can't concur with this articles's premise. All women are not catty, but I have experienced more conflict in the profession with women who had difficulty handling my straightforward nature than with men. When reviewing a female landscape architect's work, she complained to upper level management because I was critical of the drawings. Instead of supporting me, there was a behind the scenes emotional play, because I was simply doing my job. Unfortunately many of the women I have worked with or for haven't seemed to be advocates and don't seem as receptive to communicating in direct ways. One might argue that architecture is still such a male dominated profession that it is an anomaly where finding female mentors is more challenging. Of course there is not a rule, and I have worked with some wonderful women in my career - unfortunately I have encountered a greater number of catty girls and women throughout life.
46
My observation is in alignment with your points.
1
Old saying- becoming less relevant, but isn't dead yet- "Women have to try twice as hard to get half as far." That probably applies to any group experiencing discrimination. It does'nt mean it applies to all or even majority, but denying it impairs solutions. It was thought when more female lawyers became judges, finance & custody issues in family courts would be decided more equitably. That seems not to be the case (as stated by very knowledgeable source who shall remain nameless here). Consider notorious ~11 yr. Brooklyn Taub divorce/bankruptcy by wife though 4 female judges stated husband wealthy & 3 recused for bias & ignored father stole custody of youngest son even after father convicted of extortion for covering up sex abuse/ ETC. Settlement still not being honored. In grad. school female head of program at 1st didn't believe me when I said male supervisor for my internship treated me unfairly since I wouldn't date him (I was divorced then). She became staunch supporter later when another female wrote letter saying they couldn't have moved forward without my help.... I've long been a nat'l public activist re many serious issues & present both sides of issues in as compassionate, constructive way as I can, but it must include viewing all key facts. The pres. of group of mostly retired women nastily kicked me out for mentioning abusive custody, though I went through proper channels & made clear just trying to spread the word. Other female groups ignore it too.
9
The "catty woman" is no myth. I am female and in my late fifties: I know of what I speak.
83
Over a long career, I've found the more insecure, the more competitive and often mean women can be to one another. On the other hand, I've never understood Sheryl Sandberg's professional sandbox and likely never will.
1
Isn't it possible that queen bees are unlikely in many instances, but develop naturally in the most sexist workplaces?
The article notes that it was a male executive who blocked the ascent of women in S&P 1,500 companies. If the attitude prevails that there's only one place for women, that creates incentives towards queen bee behavior. Wouldn't some smart women leaders naturally keep female rivals down, realizing that they held the only "women's job" among leadership?
Claiming that the problem will solve itself is optimistic. There are certain industries, notably technology, that seem to have made very limited progress in hiring and promoting women. Leaders, both male and female, need to shift their attitude in a way that moves the entire business culture with it.
The article notes that it was a male executive who blocked the ascent of women in S&P 1,500 companies. If the attitude prevails that there's only one place for women, that creates incentives towards queen bee behavior. Wouldn't some smart women leaders naturally keep female rivals down, realizing that they held the only "women's job" among leadership?
Claiming that the problem will solve itself is optimistic. There are certain industries, notably technology, that seem to have made very limited progress in hiring and promoting women. Leaders, both male and female, need to shift their attitude in a way that moves the entire business culture with it.
54
Tech is my former career. I can assure you that most women who choose tech careers don't get it. I've worked with some very technical women, don't get me wrong, but some women seem to have decided, I want to be a technical person and make that my career. Then go out and spew jargon and simply never bother to really get it. I've spent probably 20% of my time listening to nonsense waiting for the real technical people to finally get going. Sure there are blithering idiots in tech that are male, but we men can dispense with them easier, we aren't accused of being sexist when we do.
Yes, there are a lot of women who are technical, but far fewer than THINK they are. Think Amy Farah Fowler, there you have a geek and a techie. Think Captain Janeway and you have a poser. If you don't know who they are, epic fail, you aren't a geek or techie.
Geeks challenge each other, it's the price of entry. It's not sexist as much as it is the game. Geeks love their gaming too. If you don't know your stuff, geeks don't want to waste their time talking to you.
Yes, there are a lot of women who are technical, but far fewer than THINK they are. Think Amy Farah Fowler, there you have a geek and a techie. Think Captain Janeway and you have a poser. If you don't know who they are, epic fail, you aren't a geek or techie.
Geeks challenge each other, it's the price of entry. It's not sexist as much as it is the game. Geeks love their gaming too. If you don't know your stuff, geeks don't want to waste their time talking to you.
13
As someone who has worked in an environment where she was viewed as a Queen Bee, I can tell you that perception is often different from fact. A female subordinate (who did not work directly with me) was fired. Rumor quickly spread that I did not want the competition and had gotten rid of her. The only problem with this "fact" was: (1) I actually quite enjoyed working with this woman; (2) tried to look out for her; and (3) when she was actually fired, only 3 men were included in on the decision and she reported to two of them. My deep suspicion is that neither of the men she worked for wanted to admit their role in the event and it was easier to blame me.
36
This is no myth. In law firms, there is always a queen bee or coterie of women in admin positions without power that cultivate theirs through the men in leadership and shoot darts at smart, motivated women who confidently own their careers and speak their minds. I was told, unequivocally, by the queen bee in a Top 20 firm (who gained her power through a long ago relationship with the managing partner) that women were not to be trusted. The head of human resources openly stating she dislikes women! She fired people on a whim - cruelly and without warning - constantly. At another firm - a group of women with no power of their own would work quite creatively to assassinate the characters of women who stood up for themselves, claimed their space and felt equal to the men. Sexist institutions that discount women and their power don't mean women stay powerless. It means they play small and mean - don't really compete with the men - and keep us all focused on the wrong, unequal playing field. I admire Sandberg in general, but look at any firm that generates exorbitant money and the above issue will be in play.
27
She said that women weren't to be trusted and you believed her. Not the way to break barriers.
In Vermont when we elected our first woman governor, she appointed a lot of women to important positions including Secretaries of Agencies and department heads. These women in turn promoted and encouraged lower rung women. This allowed important work to be done infields that too often were neglected because they served women and children.
In my own office (I was the boss) women were encouraged and we all learned to work in an unregimented and supportive atmosphere and we got a lot done - again to the benefit of the work we did. I can't help but notice that you suggested the woman in question got her power from a relationship with a man - are you sure or are you just willing to believe demeaning things about a woman because you don't get along with her. Maybe law firms are different from the real world.
In Vermont when we elected our first woman governor, she appointed a lot of women to important positions including Secretaries of Agencies and department heads. These women in turn promoted and encouraged lower rung women. This allowed important work to be done infields that too often were neglected because they served women and children.
In my own office (I was the boss) women were encouraged and we all learned to work in an unregimented and supportive atmosphere and we got a lot done - again to the benefit of the work we did. I can't help but notice that you suggested the woman in question got her power from a relationship with a man - are you sure or are you just willing to believe demeaning things about a woman because you don't get along with her. Maybe law firms are different from the real world.
2
Sheryl is right that patriarchy and racism are major problems, and those who derive power from this dynamic are often White men and women. It's important to understand how this works, you only need to look at top law firms and their partnerships. They use minorities, especially Black women to quell the uproar such as with Paulette Brown with Edwards Wildman and then she went to be president of ABA, meanwhile, their work records and inputs are often kept to a minimum until such a situation rises that they need to exploit tokenism. Call this insurance in modern society for big law firms where everyone preaches to aspire to higher moral and ethical professionalism and values but it's still largely exploitative and about getting rid of the rights from those who hold the power.
SS subscribes to a so-called gentle soft feminism (likely based on her cushioned experiences) where the responsibility of success is squarely left to women themselves, not structures and systems that has been oppressive to women. The society that still upholds patriarchal values and White corporate agenda above our agreed upon laws to protect women & minorities in workplaces, and make no mistake, this is a failure of government, as much as the public and private industries. Like Sheryl alludes to in this op-ed that minorities and women are made victims for exercising civil rights and liberties that is empowering for some women, usually, white women and obviously, white men, so catty women are rewarded.
SS subscribes to a so-called gentle soft feminism (likely based on her cushioned experiences) where the responsibility of success is squarely left to women themselves, not structures and systems that has been oppressive to women. The society that still upholds patriarchal values and White corporate agenda above our agreed upon laws to protect women & minorities in workplaces, and make no mistake, this is a failure of government, as much as the public and private industries. Like Sheryl alludes to in this op-ed that minorities and women are made victims for exercising civil rights and liberties that is empowering for some women, usually, white women and obviously, white men, so catty women are rewarded.
studies are studies; they are often rigged to ensure the desired outcome.
i am a 56 year old woman, successful in my 30-year career. for the last 13 years I have dealt with systematic bullying from my female manager, who is 15 years younger than me. I trained her and have tried to support her over the years. In exchange I am excluded from women-centered meetings, lunches and other opportunities that could advance my career. she has said horrible things to me that have caused me many tears. it's a good thing that my other manager, a 60 year old man (and her boss), loves my work and constantly praises me. I think it's an extreme lack of confidence on her part that causes her to be so mean, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
I own dogs, and the maxim with dogs is only one or two females max; otherwise they will be constantly fighting with each other. I think that behavior also applies to us humans.
i am a 56 year old woman, successful in my 30-year career. for the last 13 years I have dealt with systematic bullying from my female manager, who is 15 years younger than me. I trained her and have tried to support her over the years. In exchange I am excluded from women-centered meetings, lunches and other opportunities that could advance my career. she has said horrible things to me that have caused me many tears. it's a good thing that my other manager, a 60 year old man (and her boss), loves my work and constantly praises me. I think it's an extreme lack of confidence on her part that causes her to be so mean, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
I own dogs, and the maxim with dogs is only one or two females max; otherwise they will be constantly fighting with each other. I think that behavior also applies to us humans.
69
Hold your horses. Lets not deny that women can be catty in the workplace. Stereotypes are a double edged blade. Acting out a stereotype can be as detrimental to a marginalized group as being stereotyped. I know I'm tromping over sensitive ground here; but whether it be stereotypes of black on black violence or women on women sabotage, there must be a recognition that there is a problem. I'm a 34yr old male supervisor of 2 men and 5 women. 2 of those female employees complain constantly about their female coworkers. Everything from inappropriate dress to reporting to me that a female coworker drove too fast out of the parking lot. Petty. They never complain about a male counterpart that is obviously prone to procrastination. Interestingly enough, the complainers have become fast friends and are very supportive of each other. My most recent recommendation when asked who might help fill the growing web-team? The girl that prefers summer dresses, drives too fast in the parking lot, and finishes all her work on time without mistakes. Denying this cattiness is to deny the myriad challenges women face before they can even worry about the glass ceiling.
42
Great examples of how women are emotionally more attached to the status quo.
1
This seems like a huge generalization. The point isn't that no women are "catty" (although this specific term for a type of behavior seems to be applied primarily when it's a woman and therefor has a sexist ring to it). The point is that the cliche - that women as a group are more likely to be unsupportive of one another is unsupported.
Given other data that says if equally talented men and women vie for the same position, the man will be offered the job, different behaviors to protect one's work "turf" can be expected. There are a multitude of work areas which have a token, albeit competent, female employee. She usually realizes it. The entry of another female into the arena is taken more personally. Behavior becomes catty. Men do not usually feel that one specific other male employee is a threat to their job.
12
The purpose of the Queen Bee stereotype is to reinforce the myth that women who pursue careers are somehow inherently unnatural. There's something wrong with us; we must have a nurturing deficit. Like all discrimination myths, it is just not true.
24
If it is not true, how do you explain all of the comments to this article to the contrary?
2
I worked, and have always worked in an environment that is predominantly female: publishing. As a male I have had numerous female bosses, and from all of them, all but one gave me trouble, and it was mostly my fault (she was a terrible communicator and I disliked the job). I have been helped, nurtured, well-recommended, mentored by female bosses. For the most part they were smart, skilled and helpful. I have also had male bosses (like right now), who behaved in similar fashion. I have had gay bosses too - no issues there. However, the issues I have had with females were not while working *for* them; rather, I have found that in many cases I had difficulty were while working *with* females. Some of them were protected and behaved in grotesque fashion. But they should not be singled out; i am thankful to have had such experiences - it made me a better professional, more aware of my surroundings, how I come across, and most importantly, how office politics work. Aside from that, more power to women!
4
As a radical feminist since birth almost, I would love to sign on to the idea that women with power in the workplace are not the enemies of other women. I certainly believed that and aced in a way that would be beneficial to all. Unfortunately my personal experience is of something quite different. I hate the fact that I, and other women perceived as a threat by our first female executive, in what has been a very patriarchal and sexist institution, have been victimized by someone who honestly is unqualified for the position. There is tremendous insecurity and fear there and it is the lower ranked women who suffer for this. She has created a lot of damage. Her victims, all women. She has so strongly identified with the anti-woman male supremacist culture that she was raised in that she can't see any other way out. I can't tell you how heart breaking that is. I am a black woman. She is white. Don't get me started on the racial aspects of this not-so-sisterly sisterhood.
134
An example of ONE woman who was a bad boss? Sigh. Well, off with their heads then! What little worlds we seem to live in and what huge conclusions we seem to draw about half the population.
2
Core of the problem, since the beginning of time: Men don't trust women. Too dissimilar. Don't know how to predict them.
Then, dismissal and ridicule flow, due to the lack of understanding. The need to regain control in light of the confusion and growing malice reaches a crescendo when it comes to sex and reproduction, where women have veto power (ref: any religion).
This is why the world needs more women in positions of power, ASAP - to dispel the 'feminine mystique', balance out the confusion and fear.
Then, dismissal and ridicule flow, due to the lack of understanding. The need to regain control in light of the confusion and growing malice reaches a crescendo when it comes to sex and reproduction, where women have veto power (ref: any religion).
This is why the world needs more women in positions of power, ASAP - to dispel the 'feminine mystique', balance out the confusion and fear.
20
"Since the beginning of time" is way before the age of the dinosaurs, and even way before the sun formed, right ?
1
As a woman, in all the places I have worked where I have had a female manager as well as a majority of female work environment, it has been the worst!! Super catty, talk behind your back and jealous all the time. The only way to survive not being spoken badly upon is making sure you are always last to leave the table. As soon as one female leaves, the conversation turns into saying something negative about her. I hate to say this, but I would much rather take a pay cut then to work for a female and/or have majority of female work environment. Currently I have a male manager and am working in a male dominated industry - I love it! There's no gossip or talking poorly on others, it's get your work done and you will be praised, given promotions and pay increases. If you're a female reading my comment, and you don't like what I just said and tell another coworker or friend of how wrong I am in how I feel - guess what, you proved my point.
58
No, it just means I'm discussing your comment.
Based on my decades of experience in the workforce, It ain't a myth.
58
Ditto. In triplicate. Particularly if you are attractive, competent and get kudos. I had no sense whatsoever of the Queen Bee syndrome when I entered the workforce but it walloped me in some pretty painful ways.
3
The biggest wallop I got was actually from a threatened male. Didn't see it coming. Fortunately I learned a lot from that experience.
I've had good and bad male and female managers. The very worst was a man. Tied for best are a man and a woman. My second worst manager was a woman who fit the stereotype perfectly. She promoted women, but none who threatened her supremacy, and drove several strong women to leave (not me). She actively hid the accomplishments of strong women. Strong male managers who reported to her did not seem to have similar issues from my admittedly limited perspective.
Given the number of managers I've had, and how nearly all my female managers were wonderful, I don't think people should expect the worst from women in charge. Quite the opposite. But don't deny it happens once in a while, either.
Given the number of managers I've had, and how nearly all my female managers were wonderful, I don't think people should expect the worst from women in charge. Quite the opposite. But don't deny it happens once in a while, either.
18
I've run into a number of queen bees in workplace settings. Most often they were lower level managers in a workforce comprised of a fair number of women. Where the queen bee thrives, however, is in social and volunteer organizations.
Perhaps it is a 'bored housewife' syndrome which brings out the worst in some women, but I finally gave up volunteering my time furthering aspirations of frustrated female despots. Too much time spent stuffing envelops and running errands only to see the queen bee always getting the accolades.
Perhaps it is a 'bored housewife' syndrome which brings out the worst in some women, but I finally gave up volunteering my time furthering aspirations of frustrated female despots. Too much time spent stuffing envelops and running errands only to see the queen bee always getting the accolades.
36
Having worked in corporate America for more than 30 years (and at my current firm for 25 years), I have always been somewhat mystified by the notion that women can't work together, or are catty or terrible bosses to one another. I have never had that experience despite working in an environment that is about 50% women (although more than half of senior leadership are men). As I think back over my career, I have had a number of women bosses who were hardworking and inspirational leaders. And that includes some where we worked together for several years. I think these kinds of views reflect stereotypes and often-times, people view incidents and interactions according to their pre-conceived ideas of how a female boss behaves or a male boss behaves and what their motivations are. It's discouraging that we are still resurrecting and debating this issue in 2016!!!
69
Kathy, do you think it might be because some men and women will have to make the hugest adjustment of all--a woman president? Smashing stereotypes, indeed. Or maybe not. Some people still haven't gotten over the fact our current president is black.
4
The women vs men and white vs ppl of color paradigm is a sentimental myth in itself. There's an adaptive trait in humans to compete, to dominate, also to share and have curiosity. Was Obama more just than vulgar texan white guy Lyndon B Johnson? Will Hillary bring more peace than Bill? There only more thoughtful and self aware people and less thoughtful and self aware ppl. We should all strive to evolve in that direction.
4
" At school, we call them “mean girls” and later, we call them “catty” or “queen bees.” (What’s the derogatory male equivalent? It doesn’t exist.)" --Actually the terms do exist, they are just unprintable in a fine paper like the times.
That being said, as a man who is an executive in a woman dominated field, I have heard from women many of the same unfair bias as the author states "I always said we needed a little testosterone around here"....I love being an administrator, but I remind these same women that my all time favorite manager and my role model of how a manager should be was a woman. There are good managers and bad managers and xx or xy has nothing to do with it.
That being said, as a man who is an executive in a woman dominated field, I have heard from women many of the same unfair bias as the author states "I always said we needed a little testosterone around here"....I love being an administrator, but I remind these same women that my all time favorite manager and my role model of how a manager should be was a woman. There are good managers and bad managers and xx or xy has nothing to do with it.
13
Each person responds to this type of article based on personal experiences. I was raised in a predominately female environment with two sisters who are my best friends. When I entered the work force, I expected other women to be cooperative and collaborative and, for the most part, that's what I experienced. In retirement, I am still friends with women I worked with, some as bosses and others as co-workers, as long as 40 years ago. I value and cherish my friendships, but remember when women were generally portrayed as rivals and enemies. That seems to be a tactic of the dominant population--keep the people who are in a lower position in the hierarchy fighting among themselves so as not threaten those in power.
17
I am so tired of the unspoken affirmative action program for tall white men. I'm waiting for the day when nobody blinks an eye about a Fortune 100 board with only one white guy on it. But I'm 53 and will be long dead by then.
70
I sincerely apologize for being tall.
2
Most of the Fortune 100 (and 500) boards are suboptimal in their performance. It is not and should not be a gender issue but a talent issue. And, by talent, my reference is to the ability to contribute meaningfully to the specific value creation requirements of the company being governed. As an investor, I could care less whether the board is all male, all female or some mix. What I do care about is whether they are capable of driving value and holding management accountable.
I have had some wonderful female mentors in my career who have guided me to leadership positions I wouldn't have sought out without their encouragement. Whatever "cattiness" I have experienced with other women can be chalked up to the same personality clash I have had with disagreeable men. No one gets along with everyone, though that is often expected of women.
Those who believe this myth may wish to look inward, as the common thread to the perceived "cattiness" in those situations is likely to be oneself.
Those who believe this myth may wish to look inward, as the common thread to the perceived "cattiness" in those situations is likely to be oneself.
37
Women continue to be put in small boxes, labeled, and dismissed as, well, as a woman...with all that word implies, which is a whole lot more than the word man has ever been reduced to mean.
12
There are plenty of labels for the boys too. We gals just seem to earn ours stereotypes with such dramatic force, it makes them hard to forget!
Seems an appropriate term for Male cattiness might be a DT - Donald Trump.
9
I worked in a male-dominated field for a long time with women as managers and mentors. Things were not as simple as "catty witches try and keep other women down" or "noble sisterhood advances a new generation of leaders."
The problem is that we think of everything as a binary, and "female" is always on the bad side of the binary: strong/weak, rational/emotional, stoic/histrionic, authoritative/incompetent.... Women who had made it to (near) the top in that profession had wholeheartedly embraced that horrible binary outlook - but made sure that they were seen as somehow belonging more to the male side of things. They were great if you wanted advice about speaking more directly, using a deeper voice, smiling less, not getting roped into secretarial work -- all of it good and useful advice. But the flip side was that if one of the women they mentored presented as too feminine - or god forbid got pregnant - they were dropped like a hot potato and suffered horribly in their careers as punishment - as though they were contaminating their boss with their femininity and dragging everyone down with them.
Male bosses would be very helpful to a smart and eager young woman, until she hit 30 and it stopped being cute. On the other hand, they did not punish women especially for having children. It was more a "well, what do you expect from them" kind of attitude, retroactively used to justify why you never got any promotions in the ten years leading up to the birth.
The problem is that we think of everything as a binary, and "female" is always on the bad side of the binary: strong/weak, rational/emotional, stoic/histrionic, authoritative/incompetent.... Women who had made it to (near) the top in that profession had wholeheartedly embraced that horrible binary outlook - but made sure that they were seen as somehow belonging more to the male side of things. They were great if you wanted advice about speaking more directly, using a deeper voice, smiling less, not getting roped into secretarial work -- all of it good and useful advice. But the flip side was that if one of the women they mentored presented as too feminine - or god forbid got pregnant - they were dropped like a hot potato and suffered horribly in their careers as punishment - as though they were contaminating their boss with their femininity and dragging everyone down with them.
Male bosses would be very helpful to a smart and eager young woman, until she hit 30 and it stopped being cute. On the other hand, they did not punish women especially for having children. It was more a "well, what do you expect from them" kind of attitude, retroactively used to justify why you never got any promotions in the ten years leading up to the birth.
10
Interesting and well written. We were just talking about this at work. It had to do with Hillary Clinton. If we do not support HRC, some think we are not fairly supporting a woman candidate and that we should. Others feel if we DO support her, we are only doing so because she is a woman.
People act as though we cannot make a decision simply based on our own reason and common sense.
People act as though we cannot make a decision simply based on our own reason and common sense.
24
It would be really super peachy keen if we could get to the point where a person's genetics have nothing to do with how they're perceived as able to perform a specific job.
That's proving to be impossible. Not because old stereotypes still dominate our behavior - which they do to more or less of a degree depending on the industry you are in (probably less so in tech - but still). Divorcing performance from a person's outlook and peculiarities of behavior has most to do, I believe, with the individual's self-perception - and how that outwardly manifests.
Until people attend to their work and approach others in a DNA-generic way, we're going to keep stereotyping women and men in unflattering and negative ways.
As much as we want to blame society for the deaths of Romeo and Juliet - it's really their internal concept of how they fit in their universe that killed them, and not visa versa.
That's proving to be impossible. Not because old stereotypes still dominate our behavior - which they do to more or less of a degree depending on the industry you are in (probably less so in tech - but still). Divorcing performance from a person's outlook and peculiarities of behavior has most to do, I believe, with the individual's self-perception - and how that outwardly manifests.
Until people attend to their work and approach others in a DNA-generic way, we're going to keep stereotyping women and men in unflattering and negative ways.
As much as we want to blame society for the deaths of Romeo and Juliet - it's really their internal concept of how they fit in their universe that killed them, and not visa versa.
11
It frustrates me to no end when people try to dispel research based on what happened to them once, twice, or even three or more times. I liked this piece and the research mirrors my experience.
13
Did you mean to be ironic?
44
The RESEARCH mirrors her experience
1
That's exactly what he meant!
Based on my own experience with about a dozen women bosses, and many more men bosses, over a working life of 45 years: never a woman boss! Maybe it is their feelings of insecurity, but mean and petty defined each one of them. They could drive you crazy, mostly because they tried to micromanage--literally standing over you so that you can't get your work done. Kibbutz, kibbitz, kibbitz. Nag, nag, nag. Each one acted like the mother in the kitchen who worries over cleaning up every spill immediately. Impractical and silly. So sorry; and I am a feminist! And a woman!
98
Some of my best bosses ever were women. I have two bosses vying for the lead as worst boss of all time, one man, one woman. I worked for 42 years and have had about a dozen bosses in that time. Sorry to hear you had such bad luck, perhaps it's not the supervisor?
64
So you worked for some bad people and decided the reason they were bad was related to their gender? I would examine that conclusion carefully.
27
My working life has also lasted 45 years, going back to the days when the 'Help Wanted" ads were divided into "Male" and "Female." Most of my bosses were male and most of them were good. However, a substantial minority used humiliation, vulgar language or rudeness as a method of supervision. As I got older, I realized that they did not know to supervise people and this was al they could think of. The few women bosses I had were all good but that was probably because they had to prove themselves as supervisors before they got the jobs.
10
I work in a massive corporate environment comprising tens of thousands of telecommuters ... many women, many men. In this environment, where communication skills are paramount (most everything is handled via email or by phone, but mostly the former) I find, with a few exceptions, that women are easier to work with. They are better listeners and are more willing to take the time to correspond at length and in detail about issues that require clarification, where men seem to prefer short answers to questions and that require repeated follow-up after they've left out the details we need. This creates a great deal of churn, which eats up more time, which in turn costs more money. The work we do is very detail oriented, and many of the men seem to lack the patience for that detail. They also tend to mansplain, which is a byproduct of an inability to listen.
31
I think perhaps that she never had a really insecure female boss.....I just watched one work behind the scenes in a snarky, snotty, yes, catty manner just manage one female co-worker right out of her job. Literally forced her into leaving or losing her sanity.... Oh, they are out there, don't be fooled by Ms. Sandberg's nice article. Women can be the meanest of the mean to one another. In the workplace, it's even more insidious because to your face they will pretend everything is hunky dory, while behind your back, to every boss who will listen, they will put you down, degrade your talent, lower people's respect, etc. It happens, every day. Give me a male boss any day of the week.
140
Amen, sister!
Maybe a better title would be, "Let's Make the Catty Woman a Myth". I really wish it already was! However, as a female surgeon-in-training, I have not exactly experienced this.
It almost seems like I have to work twice as hard to prove myself to the female surgeons versus the male ones. My theory as to why this is? There is an attitude of "I had to suffer to succeed in this male-dominated field, so why should you have it any easier?" This seems insane, but in some sense it is a hyped-up version of generational baton-passing - trial by fire, and no, you won't be getting any water, because I made it through a proverbial drought. Unfortunately, this isn't exactly conducive to improving the working environment and making it more attractive for women as a group.
I WILL say this, though: IF you can prove yourself and win the respect of a female superior...you will have a fierce fighter in your corner for life. It just isn't easy to do. The best strategy, I've found, is to accept that you are viewed with a higher degree of suspicion, observe and learn quietly, and do what is required: work twice as hard. And vow to remember, when you've made it, to forgive the women coming after you for having an easier go of it than you did.
It almost seems like I have to work twice as hard to prove myself to the female surgeons versus the male ones. My theory as to why this is? There is an attitude of "I had to suffer to succeed in this male-dominated field, so why should you have it any easier?" This seems insane, but in some sense it is a hyped-up version of generational baton-passing - trial by fire, and no, you won't be getting any water, because I made it through a proverbial drought. Unfortunately, this isn't exactly conducive to improving the working environment and making it more attractive for women as a group.
I WILL say this, though: IF you can prove yourself and win the respect of a female superior...you will have a fierce fighter in your corner for life. It just isn't easy to do. The best strategy, I've found, is to accept that you are viewed with a higher degree of suspicion, observe and learn quietly, and do what is required: work twice as hard. And vow to remember, when you've made it, to forgive the women coming after you for having an easier go of it than you did.
61
that's exactly what every minority experience and learns to do.
1
And in medicine in general, the mostly women nurses do not necessarily help out female physicians. I was quite aware of this dynamic as a student/ trainee/ in my younger years so I was able to get by without too much flack. The nurses tended to treat the male docs better and volunteer to help them, sometimes so they could get dates with them.
I'd also say that for some women, myself included, we just get along better with men. It's not about disparaging women but rather I have no interest in office gossip, Hollywood, kids, shopping, interior design, etc. in the way or to the degree many women are. If you bring me a problem I will try to help you find a solution, not pat your shoulder and listen while you drone on and on about it without doing anything.
I'd also say that for some women, myself included, we just get along better with men. It's not about disparaging women but rather I have no interest in office gossip, Hollywood, kids, shopping, interior design, etc. in the way or to the degree many women are. If you bring me a problem I will try to help you find a solution, not pat your shoulder and listen while you drone on and on about it without doing anything.
1
What an odd opinion piece. Women are supportive of one another except when we're not because
"It’s a natural way we react to discrimination when we belong to a nondominant group. Fearing that their group isn’t valued, some members distance themselves from their own kind. They internalize cultural biases and avoid affiliating with groups that are seen as having low status."
Stating that this is not our inherent nature is not particularly surprising or helpful. But how many generations is it going to take to get a point when we have equal status? Particularly when a major candidate for president gets off scot-free for being a racist and misogynist?
"It’s a natural way we react to discrimination when we belong to a nondominant group. Fearing that their group isn’t valued, some members distance themselves from their own kind. They internalize cultural biases and avoid affiliating with groups that are seen as having low status."
Stating that this is not our inherent nature is not particularly surprising or helpful. But how many generations is it going to take to get a point when we have equal status? Particularly when a major candidate for president gets off scot-free for being a racist and misogynist?
15
You are right Hillary showed clear racism in her campaign against Obama in 2008, as a Senator she paid her female employees 72 cents per dollar she paid to her male employees. Such an hypocritical candidate is however called the lesser evil in this elections.
3
Catherine, not in my lifetime, sadly. But at least I can say I was a feminist when the movement first began, even though I was only ten years old.
OK Sheryl, while your ideas are interesting and appeal to our higher moral and ethical selves, the real world does not operate in this manner. Most people are not trained to respect and engage in friendly competition with their competitors, hence much of the problems with women attacking other women in workplaces, especially professional higher stakes work of medicine etc. Often, many women sell out to their male counterparts women who standout or have potential to gain brown nosing points. We all know who they are and we have seen them rise, to ignore this problem and call it a myth is doing a disservice to those of us who deal with this daily. Women, especially White Women have been extremely irresponsible to a large degree in handling themselves, often sleeping around with their superiors, obtaining favors, and bringing down the morale and value of all other women who cannot possibly compete in these dysfunctional culture. When courts and other women recognize the discriminatory effects of these activities to women caused by other women, we can have take a good hard look at if the myth is really the women who achieves without playing dirty.
21
All true in my experience. The more money at stake - and the more sexism in play - the more likely women are to feel powerless, try and gain power through men and treat other women as though it were The Bachelor.
1
Wow. I can't believe you just generalized that white women are more prone to sleeping with their bosses!
Really repulsive. Funny that I just found out through a co-worker that two young, non-white women at the organization where I work are conducting affairs with their married (and incidentally non-white) male managers.
(But I have no doubt that to you, my identity as a working class white woman, completely negates any credibility I have)
Really repulsive. Funny that I just found out through a co-worker that two young, non-white women at the organization where I work are conducting affairs with their married (and incidentally non-white) male managers.
(But I have no doubt that to you, my identity as a working class white woman, completely negates any credibility I have)
4
These are not her "ideas." She is citing multiple studies.
1
Women are more likely to put undue emphasis on office politics, and men are more likely to be xenophobic. While both genders span the full range of both spectra, it is dishonest to pretend that they average identically. The key is treating individuals as individuals, rather than quickly labeling them.
10
The myth is the perilous belief that women, or men are at their core inclined to be kind, supportive, generous, unselfish or genuinely respectful.
Those qualities are not celebrated in our culture. Our society selects for selfishness, egoism. competitive pettiness & greed.
People don't typically take each other under their wing & mentor, offer support in any common struggle, a leg-up out of kindness or generosity or compassion.
That may have been a fiction in some post-60's, post-war effort to redesign society for a short time. But since the greed-mongering self-obsession of the 1980's, self-promotion & personal gain at the direct expense of others is the rule.
There was a generation of women who came of age in the 1980s, when suddenly everyone was only out for themselves. Women suddenly had to do everything, and perfectly: career, family, household, marriage, money, the whole thing, & in shoulder-pads.
This wasn't the women in the workplace revolution of the war years, it was a panic, a personal insecurity promoted by marketers and boomers waking up from their long youthful dreams of a caring, open community. Everyone now had to 'make it', to 'achieve' & pursue 'recognition' (Money).
Humility, generosity & respect were out, selfish self-promotion took over.
Women in that generation can be absolutely brutal, perhaps to cover profound insecurity born of their 80's ethic where self-obsessed career achievement ruled.
Hopefully humanity is now becoming fashionable again.
Those qualities are not celebrated in our culture. Our society selects for selfishness, egoism. competitive pettiness & greed.
People don't typically take each other under their wing & mentor, offer support in any common struggle, a leg-up out of kindness or generosity or compassion.
That may have been a fiction in some post-60's, post-war effort to redesign society for a short time. But since the greed-mongering self-obsession of the 1980's, self-promotion & personal gain at the direct expense of others is the rule.
There was a generation of women who came of age in the 1980s, when suddenly everyone was only out for themselves. Women suddenly had to do everything, and perfectly: career, family, household, marriage, money, the whole thing, & in shoulder-pads.
This wasn't the women in the workplace revolution of the war years, it was a panic, a personal insecurity promoted by marketers and boomers waking up from their long youthful dreams of a caring, open community. Everyone now had to 'make it', to 'achieve' & pursue 'recognition' (Money).
Humility, generosity & respect were out, selfish self-promotion took over.
Women in that generation can be absolutely brutal, perhaps to cover profound insecurity born of their 80's ethic where self-obsessed career achievement ruled.
Hopefully humanity is now becoming fashionable again.
27
I haven't encountered a whole lot of humility, generosity and respect among men in my work life. On the contrary....
6
Unfortunately there are solid reasons for the tendency of high-ranking women to persecute other competent women. They derive from evolutionary psychology. Millennia of polygamy empowered those women who succeeded in getting rid of other wives and concubines. We all descend from these survivors.
One Australian study found that 30% of female managers had queen been characteristics. They are not the majority, but this is not a negligible number. And they are not disappearing. To the contrary, the women who succeed in getting rid of competent women are intelligent and have been practicing this skill since kindergarten. And they do this just for sport. The women get a great deal of pleasure from lying and spreading rumors. They are not just queen bees, they are poisonous vipers.
Sheryl Sandberg should not be writing a denial article. She ought to be telling those poisonous women to own up what they are doing and clean up their acts. After all, they also get bitten.
Of course she could be writing such an article because she is a queen bee herself. How many high-achieving female professionals are around her?
One Australian study found that 30% of female managers had queen been characteristics. They are not the majority, but this is not a negligible number. And they are not disappearing. To the contrary, the women who succeed in getting rid of competent women are intelligent and have been practicing this skill since kindergarten. And they do this just for sport. The women get a great deal of pleasure from lying and spreading rumors. They are not just queen bees, they are poisonous vipers.
Sheryl Sandberg should not be writing a denial article. She ought to be telling those poisonous women to own up what they are doing and clean up their acts. After all, they also get bitten.
Of course she could be writing such an article because she is a queen bee herself. How many high-achieving female professionals are around her?
82
In my professional career spanning almost thirty years, most of my bosses have been women. In each case, in addition to being supremely talented professionals, they were also superior managers of their staff, taking a genuine interest in the career advancement and personal well-being of these employees, male and female alike. Never once did any of these women exhibit the slightest bit of jealousy or resentment regarding the career advancement of other women. For that matter, the same is true with lower level female managers I have worked with. Do some women managers and executives feel threatened by other women? I imagine they do, but I suspect they would feel equally threatened by a man in the same position, and there are probably no more of them, percentage wise, than there are male managers and executives who feel the same way. Now that my daughter has entered the professional work force, she is experiencing the same thing. There are managers - male and female - who take on the role of mentors in helping her achieve her career objectives. There are also managers - male and female - who view her as a competitive threat. That is life in corporate America, but subscribing a particular characteristic to an entire sex is ridiculous.
13
Women don't compete with each other any more than men compete with each other, be it socially or professionally-- they just do it more blatantly. Women's friendships can be full of affection or bickering, men's less so. Women can say things either to or about each other that men would never get away with. Why? Imagine little girls calling each other names, then someone cries. Imagine little boys calling each other names, then someone gets beat up. Adults are no different.
5
The takeaway from this article is generally so what, but also that Norway has supported women for centuries. They gave the vote to women before the U.S. did, had a female prime minister in 1981, started conscripting women into the military equally with men in 2015, the Defense Minister was a woman at the time, has social policies which provide ample parental leave, family oriented workplace policies such as long vacations, healthcare is provided as part of their taxes, they have free higher education -- you know, all those things that Bernie supported which Americans said could never happen here.
I've worked for nice and horrible men and women. There's no getting away from that. The cultural changes required go far deeper than "hire a woman" or "vote for a woman."
I've worked for nice and horrible men and women. There's no getting away from that. The cultural changes required go far deeper than "hire a woman" or "vote for a woman."
28
I love Norway and the Norwegian way of doing things, but to be fair you have to own up that they have been able to pay for everything with North Sea oil money since about 1980.
3
The US is the richest country in the world. We have plenty of money to pay for what we need, it's just not used for the common good.
1
This article is PC spin. There is enough lived experience that is contrary to the author's claims to establish it as a real effect. Oh, for media that would publish the straight story instead of the Narrative.
18
I've had wonderful managers both male and female. I've also had a slew of terrible managers, both male and female.
I wonder if this also has a generational component- women reaching the higher echelons of the corporate ladder in the 80's and 90's for the most part were flying solo- they inherited the culture and attitude of the men who didn't want them at the table, and likely passed this down to the women beneath them. I do see a shift now towards more mentorship, and openness between women in my generation (somewhere between Gen X and Millenial). Shout out to my excellent boss who is both exacting and approachable.
It may also have a great deal to do with the fact that as women, we are conditioned to be incredibly self-critical of ourselves, and constantly subject to scrutiny in the media over physical appearance, to choice in career vs. family. Perhaps these internalized criticisms find their outlet once these women find themselves in a position of power over others. The managers I've worked for who were belittling, or obsessively micromanaging I found to be acting out of insecurity and fear- whether male or female- but because the stereotype exists, instead of taking a comprehensive look at the wider attitudes of the organization, we eagerly attach any poor female manager to it.
The most rewarding aspect of my own job has been encouraging talented employees to think beyond their current position, and be in a position to help them develop the skills they need to grow.
I wonder if this also has a generational component- women reaching the higher echelons of the corporate ladder in the 80's and 90's for the most part were flying solo- they inherited the culture and attitude of the men who didn't want them at the table, and likely passed this down to the women beneath them. I do see a shift now towards more mentorship, and openness between women in my generation (somewhere between Gen X and Millenial). Shout out to my excellent boss who is both exacting and approachable.
It may also have a great deal to do with the fact that as women, we are conditioned to be incredibly self-critical of ourselves, and constantly subject to scrutiny in the media over physical appearance, to choice in career vs. family. Perhaps these internalized criticisms find their outlet once these women find themselves in a position of power over others. The managers I've worked for who were belittling, or obsessively micromanaging I found to be acting out of insecurity and fear- whether male or female- but because the stereotype exists, instead of taking a comprehensive look at the wider attitudes of the organization, we eagerly attach any poor female manager to it.
The most rewarding aspect of my own job has been encouraging talented employees to think beyond their current position, and be in a position to help them develop the skills they need to grow.
9
In my experience, its' pretty simple: women tend to care about their co-workers; men tend not to give a damn about anyone. Women gossip way too much in the workplace, which can have a devastating effect on morale. Men don't gossip as much, but they are generally less accepting of differences. Each gender has their own issues to work on, IMHO...
7
Having spent my corporate career with no women in front of me, it has always been my strong priority to mentor the next generation of women (and men too). Having a woman in charge attracts female talent and keeps them - I know because they tell me so. Seeing all these negative comments just shows how the stereotypes prevail. And I have had the experience of sticking up for women who were 'too direct' 'not friendly enough' in performance round discussions and taking the heat. But that's part of being a leader.
29
I think it goes both ways. The female manager can be cruel to other female workers. Many times however the female boss is reacting to the female subordinate who doesn't legitimize her authority. I don't know the answer but I have no doubt the problem exists.
13
And you know this how, Paul?
In the US women's marathon trials, the top 3 qualify for the Olympics. This year the top qualifier and #3 were training partners. When the top runner saw her teammate struggling, she purposely slowed down and shouted words of encouragement. Her teammate eventually finished 3rd, beating the 4th place finisher by a minute. There is a strict rule in running against meaningfully helping any competitor. What happened in this race was wrong, and the 4th place finisher was a possible victim. The Norwegian skiers have it right. The American women did not. I've seen runners go by collapsed teammates. That's the right thing to do. In running everyone is a queen bee.
4
I won't disagree with your general premise, but I will disagree that there isn't a derogatory male equivalent. I just can't put any of them in my comment as it will violate the terms of use. And trust me, both men and women climb on the backs, step over, on, crush, etc., people they think might get in their way. Not a lot, but enough to be noticeable.
There are some very nasty self-serving people in business.
There are some very nasty self-serving people in business.
17
Still waiting for Sandberg and Grant to own up to their lie published in this column in 2015 about housework and the desire for sex as it relates to men and women. It was really Sandberg that propagated the falsehood. But one only has to look at the youtube video "Adam Grant and Malcolm Gladwell: Originals—How Nonconformists Move the World" to see how Grant often behaves in a catty manner.
Anyway, bad character is not gender specific in the workplace or outside the workplace. It resides in individuals and how they choose to behave in treating others regardless of environment.
Anyway, bad character is not gender specific in the workplace or outside the workplace. It resides in individuals and how they choose to behave in treating others regardless of environment.
16
As the authors note, the sneaky truth of sexism and racism is that it is not only about overt hatred of women or minorities. Rather, it comes from a robust and repeated pattern of a decremented perception about women and minorities throughout society, a structural bias largely shared and internalized even by members of the lower-status groups, ourselves. The sneaky part is that our minds justify bias in terms of individual behavior, when it is really driven by merely by membership in the lower status group(s). Controlled studies demonstrate this over and over, and yet we are extremely, often quite passionately, resistant to admitting such bias -- such is the depth of its stubbornly persistent hold on us.
98
"a robust and repeated pattern of a decremented perception"
What does this mean?
What does this mean?
21
'When men argue, it’s a healthy debate. When women argue … meow! It’s a catfight'
There is a grain of truth to this stereotype, no matter how much it hurts me as a feminist to admit it. Women do seem to take conflict more personally than men. In my experience, men might question colleagues' abilities or commitment to the job or make generalized sexist remarks but conflict is mostly restricted to work issues . With women, I have seen conflicts where it is acceptable to question colleagues' personal lives, marriages, parenting choices, looks or beliefs.
Men seem to form professional alliances in the workplace without much emotional investment. When these go wrong, there is rivalry and aggression but it is limited in scope. Women seem to form friendships or pressure other women to do so and when that goes wrong, things gets much more unpleasant.
There is a grain of truth to this stereotype, no matter how much it hurts me as a feminist to admit it. Women do seem to take conflict more personally than men. In my experience, men might question colleagues' abilities or commitment to the job or make generalized sexist remarks but conflict is mostly restricted to work issues . With women, I have seen conflicts where it is acceptable to question colleagues' personal lives, marriages, parenting choices, looks or beliefs.
Men seem to form professional alliances in the workplace without much emotional investment. When these go wrong, there is rivalry and aggression but it is limited in scope. Women seem to form friendships or pressure other women to do so and when that goes wrong, things gets much more unpleasant.
2
I'll just say 2 names and wait for the outraged response: Margaret Thatcher and Sarah Palin. Two women I would NEVER work under, 2 women with WAY too much power. Mean girls.
18
Not a fan of the politics of either woman but the highly intelligent, well educated and politically Baroness Thatcher should never be placed in the same category as Sarah Palin.
2
A much more interesting study of the differences - or lack thereof - amongst supervisors of different sexes would be of factory forepersons or accounting firm managers (midlevel supervisors). Those are the level of management that the average worker interacts with. The only prediction I would make about the results of such a study is that it would find a wide range of nurturing versus pulling up the ladder in both men and women in any setting.
2
I'm not a woman, but the near consensus I hear from female family and friends is a preference for male bosses. Men are less likely to micromanage and less likely to be passive aggressive.
As for the experiment about workplace conflict, men and women handle conflict differently. On countless occasions, I've had female friends express amazement at how my male friends and I could argue, nearly to the point of throwing punches, and move on within hours or even minutes. My female friends, however, could have weeks long conflicts with close friends over seemingly unimportant issues. So, the experiment result probably isn't due to discrimination by the participants, but rather a result of their lived experience. That is to say, they know that a conflict between women is more likely to damage a relationship than a conflict between men.
As for the experiment about workplace conflict, men and women handle conflict differently. On countless occasions, I've had female friends express amazement at how my male friends and I could argue, nearly to the point of throwing punches, and move on within hours or even minutes. My female friends, however, could have weeks long conflicts with close friends over seemingly unimportant issues. So, the experiment result probably isn't due to discrimination by the participants, but rather a result of their lived experience. That is to say, they know that a conflict between women is more likely to damage a relationship than a conflict between men.
38
Great job here hitting almost all the stereotypes. Not my long career experience at all - whether as supervisor or the one supervised. I did, however, encounter plenty of sexism (from men) in both roles.
1
Thank you for your input, sweetheart.
1
All the best bosses of my long career have been women. The men did not show an interest in my advancement and my particular interests. The women all did.
24
I have had the support and community of women but I have also been blindsided and well - ravaged -by women - I feel it is important to move out of an egoistical (elitist?) position and understand that not all women have had the experience of moving out from repressive paradigms to new ones - solidarity in all respects just ain't that simple!
19
Right there with you. Men and women are both equally capable of being awful leaders or magnificently supportive ones. Solidarity with someone on the basis of gender can pull you down or be amazing, but perhaps it's not the right reason for solidarity. I've felt solidarity with men as well as my fellow women, on grounds other than gender: hard work, challenging projects, company loyalty. I look forward to the day it's enough to have solidarity as humans, and judge individuals based on what we do, not what we are.
3
Uhm, I didn't even read anything but the headline. Catty women? It's no myth regardless of what Sandberg says. It's absolutely true. Women are not womens' friends and they're not mens' friends either. Not on the job they're not. I saw this cattiness in the professional world and I have seen it in the non-professional world, too.
41
Thanks for letting us know up front that you didn't read the article.
9
Wrong. I just spent eight years with a toxic woman above me. I believe it is inherent in the nature of female competition that another powerful female will not be given any space, will be held down by the female in power.
I also want to use this space to complain about the 'boss hiring a much younger, more pliant female to shadow you on your job' phenomenon. I have had that situation arise no less than four times in my working life. Get a job of responsibility, and the boss then another woman, subordinate to you, who is younger and more desperate to please, and who will dog your every step, for the boss.
I also want to use this space to complain about the 'boss hiring a much younger, more pliant female to shadow you on your job' phenomenon. I have had that situation arise no less than four times in my working life. Get a job of responsibility, and the boss then another woman, subordinate to you, who is younger and more desperate to please, and who will dog your every step, for the boss.
35
I had 5 bosses in my life, 2 of which were women.
Both were my mentors and took me under my wings where I excelled at my profession. I have good relationship with both years and decades after our work relationship ended.
I don't keep in touch with any of my former male employers.
Now, as I see younger females entering my workplace I try to repay the kindness and help them exceed as well.
Both were my mentors and took me under my wings where I excelled at my profession. I have good relationship with both years and decades after our work relationship ended.
I don't keep in touch with any of my former male employers.
Now, as I see younger females entering my workplace I try to repay the kindness and help them exceed as well.
170
I've also had two excellent women bosses. However, the majority of my supervisors have been women, and I wouldn't turn my back on them if they were holding a knife - even a butter knife. Although I've also had male bosses I wouldn't spit on if they were on fire, for fear of putting it out, the proportion of bad women bosses (as a percentage of all women bosses I've experienced) was greater than the percentage of bad men to all men. And with regard to the women, the faults were specifically traditionally 'women'-associated: gossipy, catty, queen bee, totally devoid of logic, overemotional and prone to tantrumming, unable to handle responsibility and especially to take responsibility when things go wrong.
8
Good Job, mq. That is the secret. Once more women are in positions of power the whole model will change thanks to people who think like you.
2
The equivalent of 'queen bees', 'mean girls', and 'catty' do not exist concerning males?
Men have traditionally had the option of establishing their hierarchies through fists and force. However, among men, when the duke-it-out option is not available (as in most business situations) we find many kinds of manipulation in similar hierarchies, including backstabbers; kiss-up-kick-down; passive-aggressive; and plain and simple bully.
The author should read Choderlos de Laclos' novel Les Liaisons Dangerieuses for a bit more insight on women's power games. In a culture in which men (still) hold most of the power, women can exercise it only indirectly, by manipulating men and undercutting other women.
Next time you're at the checkout counter, glance at the tabloids, in which men are often implicitly depicted as passive objects to possess - 'Angie steals Brad from Jennifer!' as if Brad were a wallet. 'Cheating' spouses, homewrecking sirens, 'baby joy!'- quaint stuff from the 1950s, say you? Well, millions of women who read this stuff - women in the blue-collar and pink-collar working world, rather than the executive suite - live in that world. And in that world, other women are your natural enemies, because with only a limited amount of power allocated to the 'fairer sex', any gains to you must come at the expense of some other woman - 'stolen,' if you will, like Brad from Jennifer.
Men have traditionally had the option of establishing their hierarchies through fists and force. However, among men, when the duke-it-out option is not available (as in most business situations) we find many kinds of manipulation in similar hierarchies, including backstabbers; kiss-up-kick-down; passive-aggressive; and plain and simple bully.
The author should read Choderlos de Laclos' novel Les Liaisons Dangerieuses for a bit more insight on women's power games. In a culture in which men (still) hold most of the power, women can exercise it only indirectly, by manipulating men and undercutting other women.
Next time you're at the checkout counter, glance at the tabloids, in which men are often implicitly depicted as passive objects to possess - 'Angie steals Brad from Jennifer!' as if Brad were a wallet. 'Cheating' spouses, homewrecking sirens, 'baby joy!'- quaint stuff from the 1950s, say you? Well, millions of women who read this stuff - women in the blue-collar and pink-collar working world, rather than the executive suite - live in that world. And in that world, other women are your natural enemies, because with only a limited amount of power allocated to the 'fairer sex', any gains to you must come at the expense of some other woman - 'stolen,' if you will, like Brad from Jennifer.
13
Oh, please, ACW.
Why? Myths usually have an element of truth to them. Or while you're at it, how about abolishing the myth of the domineering, testosterone-driven male? Or are we keeping that one?
28
Shouldn't we all care for each other regardless of gender? I think giving a special treatment to people of your own gender is not a moral act regardless of whether you're helping or hindering.
8
I agree totally.
5
"women helping one another, professionally and personally. Yet the popular idea is that women are not supportive of other women"
Gee, I've heard for a long time that the difference between men and women is that women cooperate and men compete. On the other hand, I've heard from plenty of parents and teachers of different ages that while boys are more likely to do crazy physical things, girls are more likely to be sneaky and socially mean. Maybe it's that males are more likely to just do their own thing while being competitive while females are more likely to either assassinate each other or cooperate - one possibility. Also, primary/middle/high school and the workplace are very different places and times of life. Married women also look upon single women as their enemy, so I was told by a former girlfriend in the midst of married couples.
There are plenty of negative male stereotypes, though; when the authors touch on those, I'll take them more seriously. E.g., 'men talk': I can say that NONE of my male friends have ever talked about what they do with their girlfriends/wives, or about their own physical tendencies; the ones I've heard private details from have been my girlfriends regarding their previous men - things I really didn't want to hear, and they surely told the next guy things about me - from platonic female friends, and from gay men. Are there straight me who 'talk'? Surely, but I and my friends don't, and plenty of women do.
Gee, I've heard for a long time that the difference between men and women is that women cooperate and men compete. On the other hand, I've heard from plenty of parents and teachers of different ages that while boys are more likely to do crazy physical things, girls are more likely to be sneaky and socially mean. Maybe it's that males are more likely to just do their own thing while being competitive while females are more likely to either assassinate each other or cooperate - one possibility. Also, primary/middle/high school and the workplace are very different places and times of life. Married women also look upon single women as their enemy, so I was told by a former girlfriend in the midst of married couples.
There are plenty of negative male stereotypes, though; when the authors touch on those, I'll take them more seriously. E.g., 'men talk': I can say that NONE of my male friends have ever talked about what they do with their girlfriends/wives, or about their own physical tendencies; the ones I've heard private details from have been my girlfriends regarding their previous men - things I really didn't want to hear, and they surely told the next guy things about me - from platonic female friends, and from gay men. Are there straight me who 'talk'? Surely, but I and my friends don't, and plenty of women do.
7
This piece first says--in the title--that catty women in business are a myth. Then it says the reason women undermine other women is because they are protecting "fragile turf." And then it goes on to say women are only called catty because their behavior is judged by sexist standards.
Ms Sandberg recently said that before her husband's death, she did not realize how hard it is for many working mothers to succeed at work and meet conflicting demands of home and career.
I would say her singular career path has also prevented her from seeing what many people do every day. The working world is loaded with women who are unpleasant, who gossip, back stab, undermine, and make other women's lives miserable.
The fact that there are also many unpleasant men in the workplace does not make the unpleasant, unsupportive woman a myth.
Ms Sandberg recently said that before her husband's death, she did not realize how hard it is for many working mothers to succeed at work and meet conflicting demands of home and career.
I would say her singular career path has also prevented her from seeing what many people do every day. The working world is loaded with women who are unpleasant, who gossip, back stab, undermine, and make other women's lives miserable.
The fact that there are also many unpleasant men in the workplace does not make the unpleasant, unsupportive woman a myth.
227
Articles like these always vex me because, while I agree with the central point, I can't accept it as a sweeping generalization. Women, like men, come in all kinds and in just about the same ratio. Yes, women should be judged by their highest common denominator as men are, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of difficult women in all of our paths. Moreover, there are PLENTY of names for men who behave badly, but none of them could be printed here.
Also, as a gay man, I have found that I have been the odd man out in several environments. I am too feminine to be embraced by the straight men, and too masculine to be embraced by the women, whose protective behavior causes them to circle the wagons.
So many articles like this mix the oil of victimization with the water of reality and try to stir actively to make a cohesive point. We've all been at the end of the harsh treatment by both genders, found others who label them for such, and worked to find alternatives to dealing with them with no regard to gender.
Also, as a gay man, I have found that I have been the odd man out in several environments. I am too feminine to be embraced by the straight men, and too masculine to be embraced by the women, whose protective behavior causes them to circle the wagons.
So many articles like this mix the oil of victimization with the water of reality and try to stir actively to make a cohesive point. We've all been at the end of the harsh treatment by both genders, found others who label them for such, and worked to find alternatives to dealing with them with no regard to gender.
22
It's totally true. I've seen it happen many, many times when a powerful woman runs off other powerful women until they are assigned a male client lead or person on their team. I never understood it. The thing is, men do it too. So, it's sexist to say it's only women. The reasons may be different. But, the effect is the same. And, there are plenty of women who do take other women under there wings. But, to say it is not a phenomenon, is revisionist head-in-sand commentary.
21
I've had plenty of women managers and have never experienced any of the negative behavior described here. Most people (male and female) are professional and a few (again, both male and female) are not. Never even heard the term Queen Bee!
5
Both men and women mentored the younger me, and some ignored my existence, but many women did encourage and teach me how to be a professional editor able to support myself and my children. The "catty woman" stereotype should be retired, as should they all.
7
It saddens me that we even have to dispel this myth. It saddens me that, as a rule, I hear this myth perpetuated primarily by us women.
Hey, women! When you say, "Oh, women are so catty;" "I don't get along with women;" "I can't work with women;" "There's too much estrogen in here;" and so on -- guess what? You're talking about yourselves.
Misogyny stops with us. Please, all women everywhere, pledge right here and now never to utter this nonsense again!
Hey, women! When you say, "Oh, women are so catty;" "I don't get along with women;" "I can't work with women;" "There's too much estrogen in here;" and so on -- guess what? You're talking about yourselves.
Misogyny stops with us. Please, all women everywhere, pledge right here and now never to utter this nonsense again!
252
Even if it's true?
8
Oh, ACW, put down the book you mentioned and come join us in the real world. A man and a woman made a bet they could each seduce a member of the opposite sex. What's your point?
1
You only call it a "myth" because it has not ever happened to YOU.
It is an unfortunate reality for too many women, both in the workplace and in their personal lives. The actual myth is the "sisterhood" where women look out for each other. I have even seen women back abusers and rapists at the expense of their "sisters" who were victimized.
Of course this is not descriptive of all women, just as not all men are exploitative, but is is way too common for you to just dismiss this experience as "myth" because it fits some PC version of feminism.
It is an unfortunate reality for too many women, both in the workplace and in their personal lives. The actual myth is the "sisterhood" where women look out for each other. I have even seen women back abusers and rapists at the expense of their "sisters" who were victimized.
Of course this is not descriptive of all women, just as not all men are exploitative, but is is way too common for you to just dismiss this experience as "myth" because it fits some PC version of feminism.
1
In my life, and in my employment, I have found men to be much more fair than women, who will resort to any and all tactics to get their way. Sorry, Sheryl. Statistics will only get you so far.
103
Women who will resort to any and all tactics to get their way? I have found that the characteristic you describe is no less common among men that women. Aren't you thinking of one or two examples and generalizing unfairly from there?
11
Do you ignore statistics in your profession, or do you only go with your personal experience? Yes, statistics have their limitations, but we can learn from carefully interpreted data and analysis.
3
the view from the ground:
I'm a retired professional, in a field (television news) that was pseudo-supportive of women, but selectively, at the whim of the queen bee. As a volunteer presently in the "helping services" (arts in medicine, and recently as a camp counselor for kids with autism), I think that collegiality and support starts at the top. In one of my programs the women are very supportive of one another and the pecking is not ordered; in another program there was a shocking clique of "mean girls" who did not play nicely.
Even though some female executives take pride in helping other women up the ladder, I think this column begs the issue of who's invited on the ladder.
I would like the Times to publish a column written by a woman who is short, overweight, not adorable, or not socially skillful. If you're not in the right club, the barriers are still horrific.
even in my blog, my alter ego is a man: http://duncanblitzandloseweight.blogspot.com/
I'm a retired professional, in a field (television news) that was pseudo-supportive of women, but selectively, at the whim of the queen bee. As a volunteer presently in the "helping services" (arts in medicine, and recently as a camp counselor for kids with autism), I think that collegiality and support starts at the top. In one of my programs the women are very supportive of one another and the pecking is not ordered; in another program there was a shocking clique of "mean girls" who did not play nicely.
Even though some female executives take pride in helping other women up the ladder, I think this column begs the issue of who's invited on the ladder.
I would like the Times to publish a column written by a woman who is short, overweight, not adorable, or not socially skillful. If you're not in the right club, the barriers are still horrific.
even in my blog, my alter ego is a man: http://duncanblitzandloseweight.blogspot.com/
17
I do agree with the struggle to be invited on the ladder: however, you could argue the same barriers exist for men. Short, fat, awkward guys aren't as likely to get invited on the ladder either.
7
But they'd be promoted over a short fat awkward female.
2
I am a woman, and have found that the difficulties faced by women of older generations to advance has impacted their treatment of younger women negatively. Most of the opposition I've faced when trying to advocate for myself as a pregnant woman and new mother in the workplace has come from older women, who often confide that they did not have access to such accommodations and benefits and are taken aback that someone would even dare ask.
I've heard women in my field refer to other women as "entitled" for doing things like having a second child while employed, or failing to work expected (unpaid) overtime at the office, even while working full-time and agreeing to be available from home after hours.
I hope that with improved opportunities for women, such resentments will naturally disappear.
I've heard women in my field refer to other women as "entitled" for doing things like having a second child while employed, or failing to work expected (unpaid) overtime at the office, even while working full-time and agreeing to be available from home after hours.
I hope that with improved opportunities for women, such resentments will naturally disappear.
9
"One survey of high-potential leaders involved in mentoring showed that women were mentored by 73 percent of the women but only 30 percent of the men. And 65 percent of high-potential women who received support paid it forward by mentoring others, compared with only 56 percent of men."
I'm glad that the author is advocating that more men be incentivized to mentor other men because this statistic tells me that men suffer from a lack of mentoring, but women appear slightly better at mentoring (just not receiving it from men). I keep hearing about "breaking down the old boys’ network", but this is evidence that it's already pretty broken when it comes to mentoring other men (and women). Only 56% of mentored men mentor others.
As an older, professional millennial man who manages teams of other folks, I have received very little mentoring - from men or women - but have heard lots of complaining from women about the "old boys network" and my privilege, as if golfing and 3-martini lunches are still a thing. Someone let me know where I can get a number for the old boys network, but I'm pretty sure that number got disconnected some time ago.
I'm glad that the author is advocating that more men be incentivized to mentor other men because this statistic tells me that men suffer from a lack of mentoring, but women appear slightly better at mentoring (just not receiving it from men). I keep hearing about "breaking down the old boys’ network", but this is evidence that it's already pretty broken when it comes to mentoring other men (and women). Only 56% of mentored men mentor others.
As an older, professional millennial man who manages teams of other folks, I have received very little mentoring - from men or women - but have heard lots of complaining from women about the "old boys network" and my privilege, as if golfing and 3-martini lunches are still a thing. Someone let me know where I can get a number for the old boys network, but I'm pretty sure that number got disconnected some time ago.
3
Thanks, Sheryl, for the sake of my 2 daughters. They're very smart, and I want them to have a chance to be as successful as you are. I don't want them to get rich, but rather to just be respected.
To be honest, I wasn't thrilled with the message people took from your first book. I had the same reaction as they did, which was essentially, "just because your one of our richest people, it doesn't mean you have life wisdom."
Sorry, that sounds harsh. But I felt it as many did. One of life's lessons is that giving advice is often coerced, it seldom comes from wisdom, but it most often is elicited from a desire to be liked and it is given somewhat condenscendingly in most cases. People ask for advice because they want the advisor to like them, and in the process they're being subservient. What's not to like about that?
Ok. So it is time for a woman president. My mother lived her entire life wanting this. My daughters deserve it.
Where does that leave us males? I often look out for females. Do you ever look out for males?
To be honest, I wasn't thrilled with the message people took from your first book. I had the same reaction as they did, which was essentially, "just because your one of our richest people, it doesn't mean you have life wisdom."
Sorry, that sounds harsh. But I felt it as many did. One of life's lessons is that giving advice is often coerced, it seldom comes from wisdom, but it most often is elicited from a desire to be liked and it is given somewhat condenscendingly in most cases. People ask for advice because they want the advisor to like them, and in the process they're being subservient. What's not to like about that?
Ok. So it is time for a woman president. My mother lived her entire life wanting this. My daughters deserve it.
Where does that leave us males? I often look out for females. Do you ever look out for males?
1
To answer your last question, in my experience, all the time.
1
I don't care if the warlord running a corporation that off-shores jobs, avoids taxes, gentrifies communities, destroys environments, builds ever more horrible weapons, and in general treats the rest of the human race as an obstacle to its own profits is a man or a woman.
Token women at the "pinnacle of power" do not advance anything but cooptation of the struggle for human rights and further subjugation of the human race to corporate rule. A so-called feminist struggling to be a CEO as opposed to fighting to make the economy serve the human race is no alternative to entitled males doing the same thing.
Token women at the "pinnacle of power" do not advance anything but cooptation of the struggle for human rights and further subjugation of the human race to corporate rule. A so-called feminist struggling to be a CEO as opposed to fighting to make the economy serve the human race is no alternative to entitled males doing the same thing.
20
Women in positions of power abusing other women, especially women who report to them, may be rare, and I hope they are rare, but my experience over 25 years of professional work has been filled with female managers who have been cruel, belittling, and demeaning of me and other female employees. I far prefer a male manager, as my personal experience has been that I have never been emotionally abused by a male manager, and have been far more supported and encouraged, and trusted to do my job well without micromanaging, by men in positions of power than by women.
234
Unfortunately, I have to agree. While I now work in an environment of mostly women who uniformly support each other, as well as everyone in the department—&, it should be said, the men here uniformly support each other as well as everyone in the department—my three worst bosses in three decades of work have been women, & the vast majority of people I've had issues w/have been women, even in places in which women were only around 20–25% of the workforce. All three female supervisors were of a type that I describe as feeling like they need to "outman" the men—more loud, more aggressive, more denigrating—coupled w/the sly cattiness of the stereotypical female boss.
56
@Karen - I'm retired now, but my entire work experience with male vs female managers and supervisors was similar. Not only did I prefer to work for men, I preferred to work with them. It was a saner, calmer experience, and the men always let me know they respected and appreciated my competence. And they also put their money where their mouths were at review time.
37
This is an interesting perspective and I have heard it from several other women, too. I've wondered if because women are historically new to employment--and thus management--that this has created the sort of pressures to provoke such behavior. Almost if the lack of experience or comfort with a female manager invites an insecurity from all workers involved?
3
"The two Norwegians are the top two female cross-country skiers in the world and fierce competitors. Instead of being bitter rivals, they are best friends."
Speaking of the winter Olympics, I'll note you didn't address the wonderfully empowering rivalry between Nancy Kerrigan and Tanya Harding. I also recall a whole list of reasons the Times put forth in a recent article about why Hilary Clinton would not want Elizabeth Warren as a running mate and their icy relationship to each other. My point in this is that the statistics cited below the anecdotes are much more convincing.
Speaking of the winter Olympics, I'll note you didn't address the wonderfully empowering rivalry between Nancy Kerrigan and Tanya Harding. I also recall a whole list of reasons the Times put forth in a recent article about why Hilary Clinton would not want Elizabeth Warren as a running mate and their icy relationship to each other. My point in this is that the statistics cited below the anecdotes are much more convincing.
114
The authors conclude, "When a woman helps another woman, they both benefit." The real question is, "How likely are women to help other women in professional environments?" In my experience, many women feel threatened by other women in such settings--especially if those women have a comparable or competing skill set. Men might feel threatened as well, but for whatever reason, women are more "obvious" in showing that they feel threatened. Interestingly, I've observed that older, wiser women who are well-established in their profession are more likely to help and mentor the up-and-coming woman. But when women are generational peers, the "cattiness" of the stereotype is hard to miss.
103
Because, you know, it's so different for men.
Come on. Let's be honest. Men compete in the most vile ways. They are no different than women. Society accepts male competition. Women are supposed to be "nice".
Come on. Let's be honest. Men compete in the most vile ways. They are no different than women. Society accepts male competition. Women are supposed to be "nice".
5
Ms. Sandberg, you speak from the top of the pyramid. Your hypotheses does not hold true in America at grassroots level and does not reflect the experiences of most women I know who worked their way up in the corporate world. The truth is that most women do not support other women gaining power and I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of radical religionists who have convinced women that Eve was responsible for Adam's fall in the Garden of Eden and have tried to paint women as "evil" since the beginning of recorded time - which just happened to be through catholic scribes.
That said, women who have the courage to step up and speak out and take power can change the power structure in America as Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton, Senator Elizabeth Warren, Senator Barbara Boxer, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Gloria Steinham, Jane Fonda, Meryl Streep, Rianne Eisler and so many other women have done. Women must continue to step up and take over one-half the power positions in America to create true female/male partnership governance in politics and business to America. THAT is the way to a civil, just, stable, truly democratic society.
That said, women who have the courage to step up and speak out and take power can change the power structure in America as Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton, Senator Elizabeth Warren, Senator Barbara Boxer, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Gloria Steinham, Jane Fonda, Meryl Streep, Rianne Eisler and so many other women have done. Women must continue to step up and take over one-half the power positions in America to create true female/male partnership governance in politics and business to America. THAT is the way to a civil, just, stable, truly democratic society.
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In giving examples of women who have changed the structure of power, you cite only wealthy white women. That certainly is many Americans' impression of Sheryl Sandberg-style "feminism," though.
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Yes, Jason, you are right. Please, readers, feel free to add any names of women who have been an inspiration to you. Maya Angelou was one of my heroes and, for a time, Oprah Winfrey.
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However, it would be in women's and men's best interests to stop penalizing women for behavior that is admired in men. An angry supervisor who yells at or insults and demeans a subordinate is not a good person to work for. A supervisor who knows when to push, when to be assertive, when to give credit, how to help a subordinate grow is someone to work with no matter what their gender, nationality, race, etc. And women can be assertive, share the credit, help others grow. It's time to stop saying a woman is aggressive if we consider the same action assertive in a man. And it'a also time to recognize that women are not men and vice versa. However, we all contribute to the workplace and like to see our contributions acknowledged and appreciated.