Just last year - Denmark went to the polls and decided they wanted to keep the EU at bay. One the reasons frequently cited, is that the Danes did not want the EU court of Justice taking precedence over their own laws and traditions. EU law now takes precedence over British law unless Parliament expressly says this is not the case (and this process can take years). Can you imagine a World Court whose laws would take precedence over the Constitution? It's easy to see why folks in the UK would want out of that.
8
It has been reported in the German media that the German government thinks that the UK might start ignoring "EU"-law on Friday
1
Those who want to leave the EU do not want to retreat back into 'little-England' as you suggest. In contrast we want to take up our position as full members of the international community. We are globalist and see the biases and benefits given to the EU over the rest of world as regressive. In economic terms, the EU is a customs union, a protectionist block for outsiders and Britain's natural instinct is one of seeking free trade. The EU is a middle-man of an organisation that seems wholly outdated in the 21st century.
Also, you suggest that Boris Johnson is 'radically right-wing'. To put it into perspective, he is a moderate who would fit easily into your Democratic party. Boris is a pro-immigration, self declared liberal-cosmopolitan who abhors guns, is in favour (as all UK politicians) of the NHS and whose focus as mayor of London was air-quality and environmentalism.
This referendum all comes down to sovereignty: parliament reflects the will of the people as we elect MPs and we have the power to hold them accountable by getting rid of them. However, at the EU level, there is no equivalence or democratic oversight. While there is what is known as an EU parliament, this body cannot propose new laws and is institutionally flawed. In essence, Brexit is about addressing the lack of democratic legitimacy in the EU.
Also, you suggest that Boris Johnson is 'radically right-wing'. To put it into perspective, he is a moderate who would fit easily into your Democratic party. Boris is a pro-immigration, self declared liberal-cosmopolitan who abhors guns, is in favour (as all UK politicians) of the NHS and whose focus as mayor of London was air-quality and environmentalism.
This referendum all comes down to sovereignty: parliament reflects the will of the people as we elect MPs and we have the power to hold them accountable by getting rid of them. However, at the EU level, there is no equivalence or democratic oversight. While there is what is known as an EU parliament, this body cannot propose new laws and is institutionally flawed. In essence, Brexit is about addressing the lack of democratic legitimacy in the EU.
7
Here's a crazy idea: Suppose, due to Brexit, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland apply for membership in the Republic of Ireland? Since Ireland has no plans or desire to leave the EU, 3 of the 4 kingdoms could join it and remain in the EU, allowing England to take the North Korean route to isolation.
Or perhaps Her Majesty could voice her opinion and preference as a simple citizen. I've yet to see one realistic advantage for the exiting the EU, but many clear-cut problems. It is yet again a case of unanticipated consequences. They will reach up and bite England on the bottom, yet the Brexit fanatics refuse to see it. You don't throw out the kitchen range (cooker to you Brits) because you burned the stew.
Or perhaps Her Majesty could voice her opinion and preference as a simple citizen. I've yet to see one realistic advantage for the exiting the EU, but many clear-cut problems. It is yet again a case of unanticipated consequences. They will reach up and bite England on the bottom, yet the Brexit fanatics refuse to see it. You don't throw out the kitchen range (cooker to you Brits) because you burned the stew.
7
Looking at the conditions in Great Britain now it is difficult to see how it can become much worse if they leave the EU.
The country is flooded with foreign benefit seekers.
Flooded with Muslims who refuse to assimilate in the least fashion and who perpetrate the most cunning schemes to collect benefits while engaging in trade, legal and illegal.
20% of Scottish and Welsh adults between ages 18 and 30 are unemployed. GB has the highest rate of unwed mothers between 16 and 25. It has the highest rate of Sexually Transmitted Diseases. It has the fastest growing dependence on illegal drugs and alcoholism is rampant. Its youth live for holidays on Spanish and Greek islands where their excessive drinking, indecent exposure and street vomiting are tolerated because they spend a lot of money.
50% of Council houses have disappeared from the market and most of what's left is unfit to live in. Private industry hasn't stepped up because rules and costs make the apartments too expensive and housing allowances have been cut once again. The schemes and estates have become centers of crime and drug use with up to 80% of residents living on benefits.
The government spends far more than it receives in revenue and depends on the Bank Of England to keep dumping more fiat money into the economy which mostly goes to the upper 10%.
The Socialists at last have run out of other people's money to spend but are so addicted to spending that they cannot stop.
GB's present is the US's future.
The country is flooded with foreign benefit seekers.
Flooded with Muslims who refuse to assimilate in the least fashion and who perpetrate the most cunning schemes to collect benefits while engaging in trade, legal and illegal.
20% of Scottish and Welsh adults between ages 18 and 30 are unemployed. GB has the highest rate of unwed mothers between 16 and 25. It has the highest rate of Sexually Transmitted Diseases. It has the fastest growing dependence on illegal drugs and alcoholism is rampant. Its youth live for holidays on Spanish and Greek islands where their excessive drinking, indecent exposure and street vomiting are tolerated because they spend a lot of money.
50% of Council houses have disappeared from the market and most of what's left is unfit to live in. Private industry hasn't stepped up because rules and costs make the apartments too expensive and housing allowances have been cut once again. The schemes and estates have become centers of crime and drug use with up to 80% of residents living on benefits.
The government spends far more than it receives in revenue and depends on the Bank Of England to keep dumping more fiat money into the economy which mostly goes to the upper 10%.
The Socialists at last have run out of other people's money to spend but are so addicted to spending that they cannot stop.
GB's present is the US's future.
2
Here's the thing. The elites of the world have created this situation in a host of first world countries. Whether they planned the coming chaos is unknown but spending decades crafting policies that impoverish, that dehumanize, that steal the future from the working and middle classes was bound to produce the reactions we are now witnessing in Europe and in the colonies. Perhaps the violent disorders that are on tap are part of the plan so the various organs of State oppression can be unleashed without mercy. We will see and then we will cease to be.
2
A sensible and accurate analysis from Mr Ascherson. The leaders of the 'out' campaign consistently and willfully misrepresent the concept of "sovereignty" that they wish to see "repatriated" to the UK parliament. As they know very well, every nation state that enters into a union, treaty or trade agreement compromises its sovereignty on certain matters for the very good reason that it is mutually beneficial to do so. Equally, those same leaders are pandering to the simple-minded little Englander's self-importance by pretending that the world's largest economies, including the EU, will be queuing up to offer the UK special trade deals with no strings attached. Meanwhile, the average brexit supporter is concerned about one issue above all others: immigration. Unfortunately, they will not be swayed by arguments based on fact - that, for example, immigrants make a significant net contribution to our economy, that public services such as the NHS couldn't function without them, and so on. Sadly, their soi disant leaders seem to have convinced them that their will be no economic price to pay for a decision based on simple, misguided prejudice.
6
This is of course a highly skewed and one-sided characterization of the situation, it is, as one commenter noted, the bias of the 1% that are to gain by incessant capitalist aggrandizement driven by uncontrolled population growth.
The Brexit vote is a manifestation of a strong reaction to the 1% that has little regard to the remaining 99%, it is part of an unfolding humanitarian crisis in which some parts of the world are holding dearly to what they have left of social stability and communal integrity.
The Brexit vote is a manifestation of a strong reaction to the 1% that has little regard to the remaining 99%, it is part of an unfolding humanitarian crisis in which some parts of the world are holding dearly to what they have left of social stability and communal integrity.
5
The creation of a "world government" was Lenin's ultimate goal once the U.S.S.R. was established. Ironically the political elites of Western Europe seized on the idea not long after World War II primarily to keep Germany poor and to encourage a "tariff free union" among a handful of "allies".
This grew to become the European Union, a hideous "super government" in which hordes of faceless bureaucrats are reigning over everything from toilet paper to politically correct speech.
Now that proud and ancient nation that spawned the Magna Carta, gave birth to the Industrial Revolution, made the largest percentage of important scientific discoveries, gave the world a body of literature that's unsurpassed is awakening from a slumber only to discover that every day their freedoms and way of life are being assaulted by these bland little men in Brussels.
The Brits survived The Battle of Britain.
They will survive Brexit.
This grew to become the European Union, a hideous "super government" in which hordes of faceless bureaucrats are reigning over everything from toilet paper to politically correct speech.
Now that proud and ancient nation that spawned the Magna Carta, gave birth to the Industrial Revolution, made the largest percentage of important scientific discoveries, gave the world a body of literature that's unsurpassed is awakening from a slumber only to discover that every day their freedoms and way of life are being assaulted by these bland little men in Brussels.
The Brits survived The Battle of Britain.
They will survive Brexit.
1
There were about twenty different Magna Cartas, Blake thought of the Industrial Revolution as "dark Satanic mills," the scientific discoveries bit is just silly, the literature of China and America (not to mention Russia) is every bit as worthy, and one wonders where "those bland little men on Brussels," are making the Black Helicopters.
It is a hallmark of the Right to start by shouting about Lenin and one-worldism, of course. While tripping lightly by what a "multi-national corporation," is.
It is a hallmark of the Right to start by shouting about Lenin and one-worldism, of course. While tripping lightly by what a "multi-national corporation," is.
3
Neal Ascherson, as is usual for him, has provided a brilliant analysis of the decision facing voters in the UK concerning continued EU membership. The essay, however, is strongly biased to a Gloom and Doom scenario.
First, "England" is not "little;' even without Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it is a country of about 50 million people, quite large compared to other EU countries. As such it represents a large market for EU products, a fact missed by emphasis solely on England's exports.
Second, to paraphrase Kipling: "we have nukes and they don't." Germany will not replace England as a force in NATO, an organization of greater concern to the US than is the EU. Indeed, in 1940, Britain successfully stood alone against Europe.
Third, the claim that "sovereignty" in the UK resides with Parliament, might be overstated, because sovereignty can be claimed to reside in the Sovereign, whose Royal Assent is required on all legislation. It is a stretch, but Cameron could advise Her Majesty to refuse to give assent to any legislation that provides for a Brexit.
Fourth, the Brexit would not take effect for quite some time, enough time for the EU to come to its senses and provide greater policy leeway for the UK and for other disenchanted countries. The remaining countries have no desire to become economic satellites of Germany.
Fifth, the EU also can evolve in another direction instead of obsessive widening of its political, and deepening of its bureaucratic, footprints.
First, "England" is not "little;' even without Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it is a country of about 50 million people, quite large compared to other EU countries. As such it represents a large market for EU products, a fact missed by emphasis solely on England's exports.
Second, to paraphrase Kipling: "we have nukes and they don't." Germany will not replace England as a force in NATO, an organization of greater concern to the US than is the EU. Indeed, in 1940, Britain successfully stood alone against Europe.
Third, the claim that "sovereignty" in the UK resides with Parliament, might be overstated, because sovereignty can be claimed to reside in the Sovereign, whose Royal Assent is required on all legislation. It is a stretch, but Cameron could advise Her Majesty to refuse to give assent to any legislation that provides for a Brexit.
Fourth, the Brexit would not take effect for quite some time, enough time for the EU to come to its senses and provide greater policy leeway for the UK and for other disenchanted countries. The remaining countries have no desire to become economic satellites of Germany.
Fifth, the EU also can evolve in another direction instead of obsessive widening of its political, and deepening of its bureaucratic, footprints.
1
Omaha beach. Utah beach. Juno beach. Lord Lovat's piper. I will have all these things in mind over the next week while I pray for guidance for us all in these turbulent times. President Roosevelt woke us that morning in June with a prayer for the deliverance of our brave young men who with their blood were ransoming the freedom of the world, a freedom which misguided leaders had thoughtlessly squandered away. Do not be deceived: the stakes are just as high today. United we stand; divided we fall.
1
I'll be very surprised if the Brits decide to leave. We remember how the Scottish vote was touted as too close to call. Seventeen years ago the same was said about Australia's referendum on becoming a republic. Neither vote was even close. There is an enormous challenge in trying to get so basic a change enacted in this fashion. The need for change must be seen as overwhelming in order to get people to vote against things as they are.
2
It's really no wonder - Great Britain MAY turn into little England. Visited Paris or Rome lately ? Social services are non existent , thieves , homeless and rude behavior mar travel there. Association is lost . Being neighbors to countries that disregard basic civilities makes disassociation seem appropriate .
2
Brexit is a leap back into a past which does not exist. It makes no sense.
When I grew up in England over 50 years ago, being British was considered to be a good thing...as we had helped to civilize the world. We had fought tyranny and espoused commonality of human social interests and goals. When I traveled around the world in the '60's - it ws obvious that we were not prospering as well as the other European countries - in the Common Market; we had been kept out!
Fear of the Soviet Union and atomic weapons convinced all my contemporaries that we were better off being a part of the "world", where we could band together and trade emphasising a European human commonality. Once we became a part of a pan-European community, British prosperity really moved forward - and best of all we had peace...I like to believe that it was social intercourse and trade that defeated the Soviet Empire, bringing down barriers which kept people apart.
My dream is living in a future world, the century of the consumer, where satisfying basic human needs allows us to inspire progress. Information is doubling every 2 to 3 years, the world is "shrinking" we are being drawn together.
It is in deed "horrific" in my mind that the English want to bury their heads in the sand (I had a Scottish grandmother - she would turn in her grave)... we need to embrace humans from all over the world to make our small planet a better safer place.
Humanity is moving to a better place...why jump off the planet?
When I grew up in England over 50 years ago, being British was considered to be a good thing...as we had helped to civilize the world. We had fought tyranny and espoused commonality of human social interests and goals. When I traveled around the world in the '60's - it ws obvious that we were not prospering as well as the other European countries - in the Common Market; we had been kept out!
Fear of the Soviet Union and atomic weapons convinced all my contemporaries that we were better off being a part of the "world", where we could band together and trade emphasising a European human commonality. Once we became a part of a pan-European community, British prosperity really moved forward - and best of all we had peace...I like to believe that it was social intercourse and trade that defeated the Soviet Empire, bringing down barriers which kept people apart.
My dream is living in a future world, the century of the consumer, where satisfying basic human needs allows us to inspire progress. Information is doubling every 2 to 3 years, the world is "shrinking" we are being drawn together.
It is in deed "horrific" in my mind that the English want to bury their heads in the sand (I had a Scottish grandmother - she would turn in her grave)... we need to embrace humans from all over the world to make our small planet a better safer place.
Humanity is moving to a better place...why jump off the planet?
6
If you phrase the question as "Should Britain remain subject to an organization dominated by Angela Merkel," "no" doesn't seem so absurd.
2
England out of the EU increases US power and influence relative to the EU as England becomes even more dependent on the US and the EU is weakened politically and economically. So for the English voters the choice is really between staying as an equal member in a difficult partnership or being in a subordinate though more comfortable relationship with the US.
Just about the only things I agree with you in this column is your admission that the EU's union is fragile. However the key reasons for this are the bungling of the debt crisis and the migration disaster which is rapidly growing worse by the day. Why should the UK and its citizens pick up the pieces from Merkel's and Junker's gross incompetence? Great Britain does not need the EU. It has been and continues to be a world power with major military capacity, London has been and continues to be a world class financial and cultural center. If Brexit happens, do not bet on major banks and financial institutions leaving London for Frankfurt. The only party to be seriously diminished by Brexit will be the EU itself.
2
Oh dear it sounds like Neal Ascherson is still smarting from his country's referendum result to say in the United Kingdom. For Little England read Smaller, Disgruntled Scotland in this case ...Great Britain is politically inaccurate.
FYI: The UK's full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain comprises only England, Scotland and Wales
FYI: The UK's full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain comprises only England, Scotland and Wales
From where I sit, in Britain, in 2016, I see the EU as a muddled manifestation of a utopian dream. It is a mid-twentieth century solution to mid-twentieth century European problems. The world has moved on. Nations today need to be agile, to have leaders that can respond to the needs of their people in response to global events (without waiting for 27 other nations exercising a veto or just getting bogged down in sclerotic indecision).
As to the environment, the people who want British independence include a far larger proportion of Britons with a concern for our landscape, wildlife, agriculture and rural heritage than those who favour Remain.
The remain camp is supported by many of the biggest international banks and multi-national companies.
I have talked with many ordinary people about the poll and it seems that Remainers are concerned about economic prospects (particularly their own personal prospects) over the short to medium term. The Brexiters are concerned more about culture, heritage and the type of society and country present generations will hand on to the grandchildren - and to their grandchildren.
Unfortunately, almost all the public discussion has taken it as given that the referendum campaign is like a General Election campaign - And here in Britain, politics, like religion, is not a topic of polite conversation. But keeping quiet about our positions on this momentous issue would be like not discussing the war in 1942.
As to the environment, the people who want British independence include a far larger proportion of Britons with a concern for our landscape, wildlife, agriculture and rural heritage than those who favour Remain.
The remain camp is supported by many of the biggest international banks and multi-national companies.
I have talked with many ordinary people about the poll and it seems that Remainers are concerned about economic prospects (particularly their own personal prospects) over the short to medium term. The Brexiters are concerned more about culture, heritage and the type of society and country present generations will hand on to the grandchildren - and to their grandchildren.
Unfortunately, almost all the public discussion has taken it as given that the referendum campaign is like a General Election campaign - And here in Britain, politics, like religion, is not a topic of polite conversation. But keeping quiet about our positions on this momentous issue would be like not discussing the war in 1942.
2
I'll keep this short and sweet. That's an excellent article.
6
Austrian newspaper Wiener Kurier reports on investigations into possible fraud in the Austrian presidential election
Federal anti-corruption office is now involved.
There have been a number of very suspicious election results in the "EU" - in Austria, France and the UK.
I do not trust "EU"-fanatics as far as I can throw the Eifell Tower with the little finger of my bad hand whilst standing on one ice-skate.
If Remain win and it looks like fraud there will be trouble. I hope it will not be violent.
Federal anti-corruption office is now involved.
There have been a number of very suspicious election results in the "EU" - in Austria, France and the UK.
I do not trust "EU"-fanatics as far as I can throw the Eifell Tower with the little finger of my bad hand whilst standing on one ice-skate.
If Remain win and it looks like fraud there will be trouble. I hope it will not be violent.
6
I would submit when the bankers and financial executives are espousing doom and gloom for England if they choose to exit the EU, then everyone has to be reminded about 2008 and the repercussions of the catastrophic financial decisions made then by this same group of questionable characters. I would also ask Americans if under the same circumstances would they be willing to eliminate the dollar and considerable economic sovereignty only to be replaced by a master currency essentially under the control of others.
Although not the best of examples, but, without its own currency and the ability to fluctuate their currency in relation to the performance of their economy, Greece has essentially now ceded power to the hedge fund operators and bond holders.
Although not the best of examples, but, without its own currency and the ability to fluctuate their currency in relation to the performance of their economy, Greece has essentially now ceded power to the hedge fund operators and bond holders.
18
Friday is going to be very interesting
3
The net cost to every citizen in the UK of EU membership is about 10% of the price of a pint a day.Having only in recent years finished paying the war debt (WW1 and WW2) it would be interesting to know how much the 'Brexiteers' think it cost to be isolated from Europe and fighting wars in Europe. It is also worth noting that this much hyped Brexit 'sovereignty' does not go as far as the referendum being binding upon parliament. The political 'wannabee saviours' who have hyped the immigration and 'taking control' scenarios, as well as their dislike of Cameron, are hoodwinking the public into believing that they (the wannabees) will do a better job than their views have traditionally done in the last century. Well, good luck with that concept.
8
Good luck with your opinions as well. We have been brave in the past and can do so again. Regarding your comment about being isolated and fighting wars in Europe we did that last century and fought for our and other peoples' freedom. This is not all about money. I dread to think what would have happened if we had not taken a stand. Perhaps a Federal state a lot, lot earlier ...
To explain the feelings on Sovereignty please see the words below from the epitaph at Kohima for the Fallen in 1944
'When You Go Home,
Tell Them Of Us And Say,
For Their Tomorrow,
We gave Our Today'.
To explain the feelings on Sovereignty please see the words below from the epitaph at Kohima for the Fallen in 1944
'When You Go Home,
Tell Them Of Us And Say,
For Their Tomorrow,
We gave Our Today'.
3
"The net cost to every citizen in the UK of EU membership is about 10% of the price of a pint a day."
One penny a year for the whole country would be too much for something that is overwhelmingly destrructive and might turn into The Fourth Reich
"it would be interesting to know how much the 'Brexiteers' think it cost to be isolated from Europe and fighting wars in Europe."
We ain't gonna be isolated. We is gonna leave the "EU", not the planet.
"fighting wars in Europe."
Why would we be fighting wars in Europe?
If we were fightin wars in Europe, than surely we wouldn't be isolated?
"The political 'wannabee saviours' ... are hoodwinking the public into believing that they (the wannabees) will do a better job than their views have traditionally done in the last century."
They will do a beter job than "EU"-supporters are doing in Greece, Italy, France and Spain.
"Well, good luck with that concept. "
Thanks for the good wishes.
One penny a year for the whole country would be too much for something that is overwhelmingly destrructive and might turn into The Fourth Reich
"it would be interesting to know how much the 'Brexiteers' think it cost to be isolated from Europe and fighting wars in Europe."
We ain't gonna be isolated. We is gonna leave the "EU", not the planet.
"fighting wars in Europe."
Why would we be fighting wars in Europe?
If we were fightin wars in Europe, than surely we wouldn't be isolated?
"The political 'wannabee saviours' ... are hoodwinking the public into believing that they (the wannabees) will do a better job than their views have traditionally done in the last century."
They will do a beter job than "EU"-supporters are doing in Greece, Italy, France and Spain.
"Well, good luck with that concept. "
Thanks for the good wishes.
Why let the facts get in the way of the story? The UK is not part of the Schengen Area and controls its own borders. Europeans need a passport to visit - they cannot travel feely to the UK without one. The EU referendum is not binding. If the majority vote to leave it is not just a matter of giving notice to quit to Brussels and then leaving. There has to be a fully fledged Act of Parliament to do so. The whole article sounds like the scaremongering tactics of the remainers.
Having said that though, if the majority do vote to leave and an Act of Parliament is passed to do so, the thought of a far right government in control with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister is truly terrifying.
Having said that though, if the majority do vote to leave and an Act of Parliament is passed to do so, the thought of a far right government in control with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister is truly terrifying.
9
Boris Johnson is not that terrifying!
"he thought of a far right government in control with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister is truly terrifying."
The thought of an "EU" controlled by Merkel, Junker, Hollande, Schulz, Schäuble being given a "European Army" terrifies me more
The thought of an "EU" controlled by Merkel, Junker, Hollande, Schulz, Schäuble being given a "European Army" terrifies me more
3
This is the most accurate and comprehensive op-ed
column that I read so far about the dangers for Britain
to leave the EU. It enhances through historical, economic
and philosophical references that Britain share a precious
common destiny within Europe.
The choice is between a strong and influential United kingdom
taking the presidency of the EU in 2017 or a shrinking island
desitangrating slowly. As a European residing in Britain I am
unable to vote next week, I feel like a spectator watching
the future of a country dear to my heart which is likely to be settle
by a referendum used by narrow minded politicians to promote
their personal agenda. This not a time to play a game of Russian
roulette but a time to pause and think about the consequences
of a crucial vote.
" In history the moments during which reasons and
reconciliations prevails are short and fleeting. "
Stephen Zweig
column that I read so far about the dangers for Britain
to leave the EU. It enhances through historical, economic
and philosophical references that Britain share a precious
common destiny within Europe.
The choice is between a strong and influential United kingdom
taking the presidency of the EU in 2017 or a shrinking island
desitangrating slowly. As a European residing in Britain I am
unable to vote next week, I feel like a spectator watching
the future of a country dear to my heart which is likely to be settle
by a referendum used by narrow minded politicians to promote
their personal agenda. This not a time to play a game of Russian
roulette but a time to pause and think about the consequences
of a crucial vote.
" In history the moments during which reasons and
reconciliations prevails are short and fleeting. "
Stephen Zweig
3
"This not a time to play a game of Russian roulette but a time to pause and think about the consequences of a crucial vote."
You seem to be arrogantly assuming that othérs who do not share your opinions do not think.
That is a charactersitic theme amongst "EU"-fanatics.
It appears to be their excuse for not listening.
And that is the reason the "EU" is such an awful mess an getting worse all the time.
I have been observing the "EU" and thinking about it for over 40 years.
That is more than enough time to realise that it is sick, dangerous rubbish.
You seem to be arrogantly assuming that othérs who do not share your opinions do not think.
That is a charactersitic theme amongst "EU"-fanatics.
It appears to be their excuse for not listening.
And that is the reason the "EU" is such an awful mess an getting worse all the time.
I have been observing the "EU" and thinking about it for over 40 years.
That is more than enough time to realise that it is sick, dangerous rubbish.
2
You seem to be an expert on the "EU" yet the content of
your numerous comments expresses a clear bias and offer
a galore of caricatural statements lacking any modicum of
objectivity. I am not a fanatic of the "EU", I acknowledge it needs
improvements and a new vision nevertheless to depict it
as sick, dangerous rubbish is utter nonsense.
One example : membership of the bloc as given the UK
a platform to pursue its environmental objectives, driving
international efforts to tackle climate change as part of the EU
- and being seen as a leader on the issue.
your numerous comments expresses a clear bias and offer
a galore of caricatural statements lacking any modicum of
objectivity. I am not a fanatic of the "EU", I acknowledge it needs
improvements and a new vision nevertheless to depict it
as sick, dangerous rubbish is utter nonsense.
One example : membership of the bloc as given the UK
a platform to pursue its environmental objectives, driving
international efforts to tackle climate change as part of the EU
- and being seen as a leader on the issue.
1
When Jamie Damon tells you to stay, run for the exit.
8
Yep, this is the same guy whom in front of a Senate banking committee, pretty much stated as such that the American financial industry is above the law. Billions paid out in lobbying and campaign financing will accomplish that for you. Fines only? No problem.
1
One of the things I have been pondering lately:
If you had the opportunity to not worry about the Butterfly Effect forever, would you accept that as a blessing?
Think carefully about the meaning of the question before you answer.
If you had the opportunity to not worry about the Butterfly Effect forever, would you accept that as a blessing?
Think carefully about the meaning of the question before you answer.
1
To address Mr. Ascherson's questions about the "constitutional nightmare": in addition to Parliament and a referendum of the people, there is a third locus of power that, admittedly, has waned over the centuries to the point of virtual extinction: the monarchy. In a true crisis situation, though, the very absence of a written constitution might leave room for a temporary resurrection of royal prerogatives. Could "this beloved old lady" take action when other sources of leadership had failed? Hard to imagine, perhaps, but not impossible.
4
Neal Ascherson, as is usual for him, has provided a brilliant analysis of the decision facing voters in the UK concerning continued EU membership. The essay, however, is strongly biased to a Gloom and Doom scenario.
First, "England" is not "little;' even without Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it is a country of about 50 million people, quite large compared to other EU countries. As such it represents a large market for EU products, a fact missed by emphasis solely on England's exports.
Second, to paraphrase Kipling: "we have nukes and they don't." Germany will not replace England as a force in NATO, an organization of greater concern to the US than is the EU. Indeed, in 1940, Britain successfully stood alone against Europe.
Third, the claim that "sovereignty" in the UK resides with Parliament, might be overstated, because sovereignty can be claimed to reside in the Sovereign, whose Royal Assent is required on all legislation. It is a stretch, but Cameron could advise Her Majesty to refuse to give assent to any legislation that provides for a Brexit.
Fourth, the Brexit would not take effect for quite some time, enough time for the EU to come to its senses and provide greater policy leeway for the UK and for other disenchanted countries. The remaining countries have no desire to become economic satellites of Germany.
Fifth, the EU also can evolve in another direction instead of obsessive widening of its political, and deepening of its bureaucratic, footprints.
First, "England" is not "little;' even without Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it is a country of about 50 million people, quite large compared to other EU countries. As such it represents a large market for EU products, a fact missed by emphasis solely on England's exports.
Second, to paraphrase Kipling: "we have nukes and they don't." Germany will not replace England as a force in NATO, an organization of greater concern to the US than is the EU. Indeed, in 1940, Britain successfully stood alone against Europe.
Third, the claim that "sovereignty" in the UK resides with Parliament, might be overstated, because sovereignty can be claimed to reside in the Sovereign, whose Royal Assent is required on all legislation. It is a stretch, but Cameron could advise Her Majesty to refuse to give assent to any legislation that provides for a Brexit.
Fourth, the Brexit would not take effect for quite some time, enough time for the EU to come to its senses and provide greater policy leeway for the UK and for other disenchanted countries. The remaining countries have no desire to become economic satellites of Germany.
Fifth, the EU also can evolve in another direction instead of obsessive widening of its political, and deepening of its bureaucratic, footprints.
9
It's desperate times/argument when nuclear weapons are being touted as a veiled threat.
Why should the "EU" come to its senses. Many would say the same can be said about the narrow-minded, blinkered "little Englanders" being led, in more ways than one, by even more right-wing Tories than we already have to endure.
Why should the "EU" come to its senses. Many would say the same can be said about the narrow-minded, blinkered "little Englanders" being led, in more ways than one, by even more right-wing Tories than we already have to endure.
Must we all learn these costly lessons over and over again?
In Britain we see Brexit, in America we have T rump.
What similarities might exist? Right wing rhetoric about white nationalism is a good place to start, as nationalists always have a quick answer to complex problems; the answer usually sounding something like "It's their fault. Those people over there who are coming over here. It's their fault."
We two Nations do have something in common that might point a finger at the energy of these movements; Rupert Murdock. A man known to profit by exploiting fear and hatred. A man with a media empire doing his bidding exploiting these movements. A man Joseph Goebbels would envy.
In Britain we see Brexit, in America we have T rump.
What similarities might exist? Right wing rhetoric about white nationalism is a good place to start, as nationalists always have a quick answer to complex problems; the answer usually sounding something like "It's their fault. Those people over there who are coming over here. It's their fault."
We two Nations do have something in common that might point a finger at the energy of these movements; Rupert Murdock. A man known to profit by exploiting fear and hatred. A man with a media empire doing his bidding exploiting these movements. A man Joseph Goebbels would envy.
12
Can White nationalism in Europe really be considered a bad thing when they ARE white countries?
1
Now, if only Northern Ireland could withdraw from "Great" - for the English - Britain.
2
Lawrence: NI is not in GB. It's in the UK.
2
Thank you Mr. ASCHERSON ,
Your style in writing is very nice , it's a good article.
Aldawas, Kuwait
retired diplomat & writer
[email protected]
Your style in writing is very nice , it's a good article.
Aldawas, Kuwait
retired diplomat & writer
[email protected]
3
Brexit will expedite the implosion of the UK, and subsequently the EU.
Pro-European Scotland will leave the UK, and remain in Europe. Wales will probably follow a similar course, declaring independence from England and remaining in the EU. Northern Ireland will once again become an unmanageable hot spot, until Ireland, with European and American support unilaterally annexes it.
The EU will also probably implode, as Europe returns to its status quo ante, in which the French, Germans and Russians squabble for continental supremacy.
A weaker England, bereft of Celtic Scotland and Wales, which will revert to their traditional Celtic pro-French leanings will have a hard time maintaining a balance of power.
As Europe once again becomes an arena of competition, not cooperation, old animosities will reemerge. One big winner, apart from Ireland will be Israel, which will be a sought after ally, as every country will want to benefit from its military might and advanced technological capabilities.
Pro-European Scotland will leave the UK, and remain in Europe. Wales will probably follow a similar course, declaring independence from England and remaining in the EU. Northern Ireland will once again become an unmanageable hot spot, until Ireland, with European and American support unilaterally annexes it.
The EU will also probably implode, as Europe returns to its status quo ante, in which the French, Germans and Russians squabble for continental supremacy.
A weaker England, bereft of Celtic Scotland and Wales, which will revert to their traditional Celtic pro-French leanings will have a hard time maintaining a balance of power.
As Europe once again becomes an arena of competition, not cooperation, old animosities will reemerge. One big winner, apart from Ireland will be Israel, which will be a sought after ally, as every country will want to benefit from its military might and advanced technological capabilities.
2
"Wales will probably follow a similar course, declaring independence from England and remaining in the EU."
I have read that the Welsh are even more anti-"EU" than the Brits and that only 10% want independence from the UK.
I have read that the Welsh are even more anti-"EU" than the Brits and that only 10% want independence from the UK.
9
A considerable exaggeration of what may or may not happen. History has shown these transitions occur gradually and something else will ultimately take its place. The Europeans are much more intelligent than what you give them credit for and under the circumstances, the opinions received from the American financial sector would be the last that they should consider.
5
I don't agree about Wales - there is very strnog support for UKIP there
1
I've always thought that Great Britain provided a real and very necessary counterbalance to the massive weight of Germany in the European Union. France seems too embroiled in internal labor disputes to effectively take on that role without GB sitting on the other side of the see-saw. It seems as if Europe might be the bigger loser if Brexit succeeds. This "colonial" urges GB to stay in the EU and exert real influence in the future of that endeavor, perhaps by working to modify the somewhat arbitrary powers of the European Parliament and the various commissions who mostly devote their time to suing US tech companies.
16
"This "colonial" urges GB to stay in the EU"
If you think it is good, then try to get your country to join.
You could take over our paymentrs and all the criminals, parasites and terrorists who have gotten into the UK from and via the "EU"
If you think it is good, then try to get your country to join.
You could take over our paymentrs and all the criminals, parasites and terrorists who have gotten into the UK from and via the "EU"
8
Hello Richard unfortunately we in the UK have very very little real influence in the EU are are almost always outvoted. If you check Toby Young of the Spectator and his article Brexit Facts not Fear the real life statistics make depressing reading
What are saying?
Some of us would like to get out of the union we're already in. At least you get to vote to leave. We're kept here by force of arms.
Some of us would like to get out of the union we're already in. At least you get to vote to leave. We're kept here by force of arms.
As noted, this is a referendum. Britain is not a direct democracy carrying out the will of the majority by popular vote. The duty of Parliament is to consider the results but only a vote by the the full body counts.
This is part of the checks and balances of a democracy, even one with a Constitution. Government may be of the people but the long term survival of a nation requires it insulate itself from the short term passions of the electorate - or be torn apart.
This is part of the checks and balances of a democracy, even one with a Constitution. Government may be of the people but the long term survival of a nation requires it insulate itself from the short term passions of the electorate - or be torn apart.
17
Hmm, in what one could describe as the the reverse of your example, considering that the recent Princeton/Northwestern 30 year study on public policy decisions in America demonstrated that the vast majority of decisions made by the U.S. government was significantly in favor of corporations/lobbyists over the will of the American public, does that mean America is on the verge of falling apart?
surely the short term passions of the electorate, and their majority vote, need to be honoured and actioned? The result of the EU referendum should not be discarded if it does not suit the Status Quo?
So the Florida shooter doesn't represent all Muslims (which I agree with), but the mentally ill man who shot poor Jo represents all those who want Britian First?
Seriously? Does nobody see the double-think here? Once again, partisanship reigns king over logic or consistency.
Seriously? Does nobody see the double-think here? Once again, partisanship reigns king over logic or consistency.
18
This double think is quite common after a murder. If you stab someone you are at fault. If you shoot them its the gun's fault.
Acherson himself has a touch of the Little Englander. It's bred in the bone. It's unavoidable. Brexit. Britain. Britain. It's the UK, you dunces! But at least Acherson gets around to mentioning Northern Ireland. That problem is hardly earth shattering, but as border-county poet, Paddy Kavanagh, wrote that Homer's ghost came whispering in his ear: "I made the Iliad from such
A local row. Gods make their own importance."
Fuller disclosure: I was born in a town divided by the border. Not near it, not beside it--divided by it. (There were nine bomb explosions there in the 1970s).
I grew up thinking it was normal to have one police force on one side of the stream and a different lot on the other. I grew up thinking customs posts and barriers were normal. I grew up thinking strife and disagreement were permanent. Now, thanks to Little Englanders, I may have to resurrect such ancient attitudes.
A local row. Gods make their own importance."
Fuller disclosure: I was born in a town divided by the border. Not near it, not beside it--divided by it. (There were nine bomb explosions there in the 1970s).
I grew up thinking it was normal to have one police force on one side of the stream and a different lot on the other. I grew up thinking customs posts and barriers were normal. I grew up thinking strife and disagreement were permanent. Now, thanks to Little Englanders, I may have to resurrect such ancient attitudes.
4
The referendum is, to the best of my knowledge, not binding.
Practically it is.
' why not bring in some much needed medical doctors, dentists and obviously lawyers"
"lawyers" is this your sense of humor?
"lawyers" is this your sense of humor?
2
Considering that the US already has more lawyers than the rest of the world combined it has to be. Does it?
If you like contempt for national sovereignty and rule by the elitist class in Brussels, vote stay. If you believe in the nation-state and the ability of a people to determine their own destiny, vote leave.
26
A big thank you to Neal Ascherson for his insightful commentary. I wonder if this is being read in England, when gullible readers imbibe hatred of the EU with right-wing press. Indeed, the "Leavers" are teemed with optimism that a bright future lies ahead of them, like being their own master again, and renewing their old trade ties with the Commonwealth, which has a population of over 2,3 billion and a GDP of 14,6 trillion (2014 estimate). But the EU has a higher GDP - 16,2 trillion with just a population of over 700 million. Whether a post-Brexit Britain would be able to benefit from trade with the Commonwealth remains to be seen. No doubt the Commonwealth countries don't forget that Britain - as a sick man in the 1970s - left them in 1973 to join the economically thriving EEC. Besides they might not like to deal with a country that focuses on self-interest and cherry-picking.
4
We should deal with them on the basis of WTO rules.
That is all we need.
If they don't buy our marmelade, we will not buy their Mercs and they will be the losers.
That is all we need.
If they don't buy our marmelade, we will not buy their Mercs and they will be the losers.
1
With a Brexit they’d undoubtedly be left with the end-game of Winnie’s worst nightmare: 6000 cold little islands that no longer have the slightest real impact on humanity.
Surprised that by now we haven’t seen organized championship of regional carve-outs for the Picts and Druids. We’d probably see an uptick in human sacrifices; but on the upside, at least the world probably would get another Stonehenge.
Surprised that by now we haven’t seen organized championship of regional carve-outs for the Picts and Druids. We’d probably see an uptick in human sacrifices; but on the upside, at least the world probably would get another Stonehenge.
1
ah but they would have an impact. right wing conservatism is on the rise across Europe, and many other countries that have closed their borders (like Hungary) might decide to follow England and leave the EU, until Germany is left holding the shattered remains of the union it destroyed
This reader is grateful for the reasoning and reasoned tone of Mr. Acherson's piece. I see too much heat and too little light among the Brexit advocates as exemplified by the comments from the UK on the piece. This seems to be a case of English Trumpism.
5
We Brits need to start talking more about Friday morning.
If the referendum goes for Brexit, then Cameron should resign by lunchtime.
Who should replace him?
I think it should probably be Gove but I suspect it will be BoJo.
If it goes for Remain, then, given the recent opinion polls and the past behaviour of "EU"-fanatics, it will be reasonable to assume that the result has been fiddled
Only non-violent protests please.
We will have to wait to see how the continentals react.
My suggestion is that we need a total break, no Norwayism or Swissism, and to trade under WTO rules
I believe we should mobilise our armed forces in case the Spanish or the Argentimes start being stupid
If the referendum goes for Brexit, then Cameron should resign by lunchtime.
Who should replace him?
I think it should probably be Gove but I suspect it will be BoJo.
If it goes for Remain, then, given the recent opinion polls and the past behaviour of "EU"-fanatics, it will be reasonable to assume that the result has been fiddled
Only non-violent protests please.
We will have to wait to see how the continentals react.
My suggestion is that we need a total break, no Norwayism or Swissism, and to trade under WTO rules
I believe we should mobilise our armed forces in case the Spanish or the Argentimes start being stupid
3
The author confuses the Schengen Area with the Single European Market. He says "This would break decisively with a sacred principle of the European Union: the free movement of people, which, for more than 20 years under the Schengen Agreement, has allowed Europeans to travel among member states without passport checks, and live and work in those countries with no visa requirements." but fails to point out a) that the UK and Eire have happily existed inside the EU but outside of the Schengen Area since it began (and four others have not yet joined); b) it is the Single European Market that allows the free movement of people. If the UK left the EU, but remained a member of the EEA (like Norway) the free movement of people would continue on exactly as before.
4
This might be sharing an oversimplistic view of what's in the cards with the potential leaving of the European Union by Britain: self-determinism is in jeopardy.
Some part gets me thinking, Britain is entitled to think for itself and isn't at fault for doing so esp. in light of the current state of affairs and given the hard-to-deny reality of a crumbling of Europe,
Besides, I don't quite align with the recurrent narrative drummed up by the medias who, a little too frequently finger-accuse all those expressing the wish to regain their own independence in light of a "concept of Europe" that, as of late and in praxis, looks very much unlike the upbeat version sold by those who have their hands gripped on the controllers.
Neither do I understand why the "Brexit" fraction of the general population has to necessarily be painted as retrograde for it fails to abide by the political agenda designed by A.Merkel and her sycophants.
Many lately have denounced a "shrinking" of their own culture to the profit of an open-ended absorption of that of others thanks to the melting away of frontiers... outside influence has its upsides but also look at they best when kept within certain bounds.
Some part gets me thinking, Britain is entitled to think for itself and isn't at fault for doing so esp. in light of the current state of affairs and given the hard-to-deny reality of a crumbling of Europe,
Besides, I don't quite align with the recurrent narrative drummed up by the medias who, a little too frequently finger-accuse all those expressing the wish to regain their own independence in light of a "concept of Europe" that, as of late and in praxis, looks very much unlike the upbeat version sold by those who have their hands gripped on the controllers.
Neither do I understand why the "Brexit" fraction of the general population has to necessarily be painted as retrograde for it fails to abide by the political agenda designed by A.Merkel and her sycophants.
Many lately have denounced a "shrinking" of their own culture to the profit of an open-ended absorption of that of others thanks to the melting away of frontiers... outside influence has its upsides but also look at they best when kept within certain bounds.
10
Be careful naysayers! Yes, the UK may suffer slightly initially if it votes to go but bear in mind that Europe is not the be all many think. And the UK is not as small as some think either. The centre of economic Europe is still the UK and the UK has a commonwealth of nations with which it can trade, and then there is India and the rest of Asia all of which are opening up to opportunities, and yes, the US will also trade without hesitation. I'm sorry but I cannot see what the UK gains by staying in a decrepit and dying Europe that is clearly not capable of looking after itself and will in a very short time not be Europe anyway. At least, if nothing else, the UK if it goes will itself determine who lives there, and thats worth a fortune. And the idea of the UK breaking up is equally ridiculous. A 'free' Scotland would become nothing more than a slum. Sorry, the only people who will benefirt from the UK remaining in Europe are the same political elite who are now battling so hard for the UK to stay in. Just watch, the UK will not turn into a little England if it leaves. Rather its more likely that a continental Europe continuing to be led by politicians to whom dreams are more important than reality will turn into a big middle east and then wonder why it happened.
23
If Scotland votes to part ways with England after Brexit, as seems very likely, the UK will be so much diminished as to barely merit the name, and it's not even sure that Northern Ireland will remain.
1
If Scotland leaves the UK as a result of Brexit, as seems very likely, the UK will be so diminished as to hardly warrant the name, and it's not even certain that Northern Ireland will remain.
From reading quite a few NYTimes articles it's apparent the vast majority of them don't understand this debate. They're largely repeating things that have already been debated at great lengths in Britain with conclusions, arguments, positions etc already made, rebutted, and so forth. Just repeating the 'Little England' mantra won't cut it.
9
Borat: "debated...in Britain." Throughout the entire UK, actually (do you even know what that is?
2
Correct.
2
Overall, a very well written article but please! When will people learn that the UK stands for United Kingdom. Four countries sharing sovereignty and most definitely not just the generic, "England". This most basic of mistakes will switch many readers off as a lack of understanding of this will make some question the credibility of the author.
3
The problem is that most thinking people don't believe half of what the Leave and Remain groups say, so they are unsure which way to vote. I'm hoping that the Remain group will win, partly because I'm a Brit who has retired to Spain so my life will no doubt become complicated if the UK leaves, and partly because I believe in a united Europe and a multi-cultural society.
I would like to take issue with the sweeping statement about English football hooligans. You said they beat up fans from other nations: which nations were they? I'm not trying to defend the small minority of English fans who caused trouble as they were in the wrong, but they were retaliating to Russian hooligans who attacked them. I haven't seen any references to other fans. The majority of English supporters were trying to enjoy themselves and avoid trouble, and many were subject to pepper spray and tear gas even though they were behaving themselves.
I would like to take issue with the sweeping statement about English football hooligans. You said they beat up fans from other nations: which nations were they? I'm not trying to defend the small minority of English fans who caused trouble as they were in the wrong, but they were retaliating to Russian hooligans who attacked them. I haven't seen any references to other fans. The majority of English supporters were trying to enjoy themselves and avoid trouble, and many were subject to pepper spray and tear gas even though they were behaving themselves.
2
Walking to work in the drizzle one morning a few weeks ago in my south London suburb, I stopped to cross at the lights and caught the eye of an older man next to me. I expected him to say something about the weather, as one almost always does in these parts, but instead he pointed at the heavy traffic, leaned over, and whispered: "See that. It's the bloody immigrants." I looked at him, speechless for a moment, and then told him as calmly as I could that the heavy traffic was caused by the rain, by people trying to get to work, by the fact that London's ancient street weren't designed for cars and buses, and that London m's economy was so successful which meant people wanted to live and work here. And then I got into my stride and told him that he should be ashamed of himself for saying such things, that he ought to know better, that our country doesn't need views like that from people like him. UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said much the same thing. It is sowing division and discord in ways that didn't seem possible.
51
I cannot understand how you can live in London suburb and not realise it is overcrowded. The over-crowding is causing discord - it always does. I don't mind if some of the indigenous are swapped for some immigrants but you are arrogant and rude to berate someone older than you for a different view.
9
Interesting analysis - but no. Like it or not, much of the angst in England seems to be from the over-porous borders created by the European Union, combined with the current migrant crisis.
And it's not fear of brown or black skin, it's a concern about the clash of cultures - western civilization vs eastern, and in particular, at least for now, Muslim. Until moderate Muslims stand up more visibly against violent extremism, what's the point? Where is the moderate Muslim voice?
It's also about the understandable desire to retain a sense of "Englishness" across their own country. I am not for isolationism in general, but understand and empathize with the underlying motives.
England and America will always have a strong and special relationship. Perhaps this referendum is the "pause button" needed to be able to take a step back and re-evaluate some of the European Union policies. I don't pretend to know the answer - God knows all of us should be helping the people of Syria and the migrants more - but until some key issues are sorted out - immigration among them - I understand the desire to proceed with caution.
And it's not fear of brown or black skin, it's a concern about the clash of cultures - western civilization vs eastern, and in particular, at least for now, Muslim. Until moderate Muslims stand up more visibly against violent extremism, what's the point? Where is the moderate Muslim voice?
It's also about the understandable desire to retain a sense of "Englishness" across their own country. I am not for isolationism in general, but understand and empathize with the underlying motives.
England and America will always have a strong and special relationship. Perhaps this referendum is the "pause button" needed to be able to take a step back and re-evaluate some of the European Union policies. I don't pretend to know the answer - God knows all of us should be helping the people of Syria and the migrants more - but until some key issues are sorted out - immigration among them - I understand the desire to proceed with caution.
12
" Where is the moderate Muslim voice? "
If there is a "moderate Muslim voice" it has chosen not to be heard. Recent surveys point to a tacit approval of many of the radical's agenda.
If there is a "moderate Muslim voice" it has chosen not to be heard. Recent surveys point to a tacit approval of many of the radical's agenda.
1
Hopefully Cameron will have resigned by midday on Friday
Given that a number of opinion polls indicate a Brexit ifm the result is very different then it will be justified to assume that there has been fraud. Then there will be trouble!
"EU"-fanatics have been engaging in sick, devious anti-democratic behaviour for over 40 years.
It is almost automatic that they will attempt to fiddle the result.
Given that a number of opinion polls indicate a Brexit ifm the result is very different then it will be justified to assume that there has been fraud. Then there will be trouble!
"EU"-fanatics have been engaging in sick, devious anti-democratic behaviour for over 40 years.
It is almost automatic that they will attempt to fiddle the result.
6
It is difficult to understand this referendum, without remembering that it should be about a binary question.
But the EU membership or exit is not really such question. Brexit especially could happen in quite a few different ways; but the Leave side never came clean about what scenario they would pursue. Instead, they say that it is for the sovereign Parliament to decide (which - the irony of it - has a distinct pro-EU majority). Without presenting a clear Leave option, voters do not really know what they are voting for.
Also, the Leave side conveniently puts all kind of "immigration" into the same basket, although there are very different types: legal immigrants from non-EU countries, illegal immigrants from non-EU countries and EU citizens who practice their right to freely move to work, study or retire in an another MS. This is a basic tenet of the EU common market, and it is no more or less then when someone from Florida decides to work in Massachusetts, or goes to study to Texas. They may remain for a few years, they may find love and found a family and stay. This is the same right that allows British pensioners to retire in sunny Spain and take advantage of its infrastructure and health care system. Without this right, the EU would truly be only working for businesses not its citizens.
But conveniently conflating refugee crisis, recent terrorist attacks, the different strands of immigration into a "scary flood" to play into the basest instincts of people.
But the EU membership or exit is not really such question. Brexit especially could happen in quite a few different ways; but the Leave side never came clean about what scenario they would pursue. Instead, they say that it is for the sovereign Parliament to decide (which - the irony of it - has a distinct pro-EU majority). Without presenting a clear Leave option, voters do not really know what they are voting for.
Also, the Leave side conveniently puts all kind of "immigration" into the same basket, although there are very different types: legal immigrants from non-EU countries, illegal immigrants from non-EU countries and EU citizens who practice their right to freely move to work, study or retire in an another MS. This is a basic tenet of the EU common market, and it is no more or less then when someone from Florida decides to work in Massachusetts, or goes to study to Texas. They may remain for a few years, they may find love and found a family and stay. This is the same right that allows British pensioners to retire in sunny Spain and take advantage of its infrastructure and health care system. Without this right, the EU would truly be only working for businesses not its citizens.
But conveniently conflating refugee crisis, recent terrorist attacks, the different strands of immigration into a "scary flood" to play into the basest instincts of people.
3
The leave"side" is not the government. They cannot decide what the government will do.
1
"Leave" is a vote for the people of a nation to have a say in their own affairs, i.e. self-determination or, worse still, democracy. "Remain" is a vote for handing control to an alien bureaucracy that is answerable only to itself, politically correct to a foolish and nihilistic extreme, expensive beyond imagination, and incapable of solving any problem of material importance. Doesn't seem like a hard choice to me.
13
Trog: What "nation?" Borders do not a nation make. Cf America! In historical terms, Great Britain is less than a century older than the US. In fact the UK is younger than the US. For most of its history, GB has been dominated by the English. Now, deprived even of their soccer hooliganism, they throw tantrums and kick over the table.
1
Human migration has been going for at least 10,000 years, and waves of people have moved across borders, seas, and nations.
Perhaps the Brits have forgotten their long history of colonizing nations on all but one continent, exploited, subjugated and decimated the people and their culture there, and extracted natural resources to benefit the Empire, and caused irrevocable damage in many sectors. Have the Brits also forgotten their own migration (along with other Europeans) to North America to claim the land from Native Americans for their King and God? And, did so again in Australia and New Zealand, by claiming Terra Nullis as the legal argument. What about the Aborigines and the Maori tribes??
Have the Brits also forgotten all the benefits of having a diverse, multicultural, productive immigrant community that enriches them?? Shameful to forget your own history, and to be blinded by xenophobia, racism, and ignorance.
Perhaps the Brits have forgotten their long history of colonizing nations on all but one continent, exploited, subjugated and decimated the people and their culture there, and extracted natural resources to benefit the Empire, and caused irrevocable damage in many sectors. Have the Brits also forgotten their own migration (along with other Europeans) to North America to claim the land from Native Americans for their King and God? And, did so again in Australia and New Zealand, by claiming Terra Nullis as the legal argument. What about the Aborigines and the Maori tribes??
Have the Brits also forgotten all the benefits of having a diverse, multicultural, productive immigrant community that enriches them?? Shameful to forget your own history, and to be blinded by xenophobia, racism, and ignorance.
5
The contagion of insular nationalism and xenophobia that has spread to the entire Western world would first effect the shrinkage of the external boundaries, and then would lead to redrawing of the internal map of nation's territorial identity. The Brexit clamour just presents the dreadful spectre of turning Great Britain into a little England.
7
"The Brexit clamour just presents the dreadful spectre of turning Great Britain into a little England. "
Not true.
It is about freeing Britain from a dictatorship.
Not true.
It is about freeing Britain from a dictatorship.
25
" It is about freeing Britain from a dictatorship. "
Not true.
Democratically elected members of a parliament are not using
the same techniques as the Nazi dictator to place Europe
under a single "authority". Boris Johnson hysterical claim is
a nonsense. The propaganda of emptiness.
Not true.
Democratically elected members of a parliament are not using
the same techniques as the Nazi dictator to place Europe
under a single "authority". Boris Johnson hysterical claim is
a nonsense. The propaganda of emptiness.
After World War I, Britain was no longer the world's pre-eminent industrial or military power. With India's independence in 1947, it was "Bedtime for Bonzo". The transfer of Hong Kong to China in 1997 was the coup de grâce.
Little Britain was all that was left of "Great" Britain.
All that remains is hubris and pretense.
Watch out "America". You're next and already well in process, whatever Mr. Trump's pledges of renewed greatness might be.
“I know not all that may be coming, but be it what it will, I'll go to it laughing.”
~ HERMAN MELVILLE
Little Britain was all that was left of "Great" Britain.
All that remains is hubris and pretense.
Watch out "America". You're next and already well in process, whatever Mr. Trump's pledges of renewed greatness might be.
“I know not all that may be coming, but be it what it will, I'll go to it laughing.”
~ HERMAN MELVILLE
4
Robert: Careful there with terms. Little Britain is actually Wales (We still call it that in Irish--An Bhreatian Bheag!). The "Great" in GB is about extent of territory. But GB is a failed experiment in melding ethnic groups, so that now the poorly educated English want something different. The English oligarchs have been so sensitive about their history that they call themselves Anglo Saxons, eliding the major influence of the Norman French in the making of England.
3
We Norman French are not even French. We're Northmen from Denmark.
2
The British, throughout history, have never considered themselves European and became members of the European Union reluctantly when every other arrangement they tried to sponsor under their leadership failed. They simply refuse to admit that Rule Britannia is no longer the way the world works. Being an economist I have to believe that Britain stands more to lose from BREXIT than the other members of the European Union, and this is not even taking into consideration the possible disintegration of Great Britain itself.
6
"The British, throughout history, have never considered themselves European and became members of the European Union reluctantly"
We were deceived about the nature of the Common Market and ever since have been the victims of lies, manipulation, trickery, anti-democratic behaviour and arrogance.
Leaving the "EU" is not about leaving Europe because the "EU" is not Europe.
I consider myself European and am a mixture of five "EU"-nationalities.
Corruption in Italy is staggering.
Being in a union with Italy is just a really daft idea.
Even some Italians who live in the UK believe that.
We were deceived about the nature of the Common Market and ever since have been the victims of lies, manipulation, trickery, anti-democratic behaviour and arrogance.
Leaving the "EU" is not about leaving Europe because the "EU" is not Europe.
I consider myself European and am a mixture of five "EU"-nationalities.
Corruption in Italy is staggering.
Being in a union with Italy is just a really daft idea.
Even some Italians who live in the UK believe that.
8
A few days listening to the BBC or reading the Times or Guardian will reveal just how delusional even well-informed Britons are about their place in the world. The British grossly misunderstand the U.S. and Americans' views on the not-special-at-all relationship. British business does understand. Check the Jaguar ads featuring British actors trading on the "sophisticated British bad guy" image. Americans simultaneously loathe the British (especially in places like Boston) and almost-revere them (maybe... somewhere).
To be fair, it is really the English who are delusional. Celts in Scotland, Wales, and Ireland have withstood English contempt from all social strata for centuries. Centuries. At the time of the Bosnian and Kosovo wars, northern Europeans and Americans sneered at peoples who kept alive centuries-old blood feuds. The English have done likewise ... but with decorum (another British skill disappearing in the campaign to be "more American" ... whatever that means).
Lest continental Europeans think they're above all this, consider how the French keep alive pettiness over tensions with the British, how they can wring their hands over trivialities like the name "champagne" (the kind of foolish convention Britons rightly condemn). Or how northern Europeans sneer at southern.
And as the English delete the great from Great Britain, the Americans delete the united from United States. And the Europeans delete union from EU. So much for the Triumph of the West.
To be fair, it is really the English who are delusional. Celts in Scotland, Wales, and Ireland have withstood English contempt from all social strata for centuries. Centuries. At the time of the Bosnian and Kosovo wars, northern Europeans and Americans sneered at peoples who kept alive centuries-old blood feuds. The English have done likewise ... but with decorum (another British skill disappearing in the campaign to be "more American" ... whatever that means).
Lest continental Europeans think they're above all this, consider how the French keep alive pettiness over tensions with the British, how they can wring their hands over trivialities like the name "champagne" (the kind of foolish convention Britons rightly condemn). Or how northern Europeans sneer at southern.
And as the English delete the great from Great Britain, the Americans delete the united from United States. And the Europeans delete union from EU. So much for the Triumph of the West.
12
Brits do not have to understand Americans to know that the "EU" is total rubbish.
Staying in the "EU" would be like staying in one of the Twin Towers when it was burning above you just because some "expert" told you to stay at your seat.
Worrying about what life would be like outside the "EU" would be like worrying whether it was raining or not as you sat in the burning Twin Tower.
Staying in the "EU" would be like staying in one of the Twin Towers when it was burning above you just because some "expert" told you to stay at your seat.
Worrying about what life would be like outside the "EU" would be like worrying whether it was raining or not as you sat in the burning Twin Tower.
9
" Americans simultaneously loathe the British (especially in places like Boston) and almost-revere them (maybe... somewhere)."
Speak for yourself.
Speak for yourself.
2
Sadly, this nation was poised to be the world's global dictionary, establishing itself as where anyone under the sun needs to go to get anything done. But now their lunatic fringe are acting like they invented the alphabet. Check, waiter!
Leicester is the most diversely populated high functioning city in the WORLD. So I guess they will miss the boat. Way to moat, UK.
Leicester is the most diversely populated high functioning city in the WORLD. So I guess they will miss the boat. Way to moat, UK.
5
Brexit supporters are living in some perverse version of Pax Britannica in which 18th and 19th-century England ruled the high seas - and invaded for material gain and colonial subjugation 171 0f the 194 then-known countries of the world. It's over. Deal with it. The EU was created firstly to prevent World War III beginning in a Europe that devastated the world with its war fondness throughout the 20th century by creating economic ties among European nations instead of mutual military defense treaties. No one, save the very old, want to return to that world. Deal with it.
13
I think your comment is misses the mark. It's primarily the remainders who are the power seekers who still pursue empire building and cannot forgo sitting at 'important' round tables and having other 'governments' tell their 'government' that they're in a 'special-relationship' to be used in large scale global geopolitical chess games / battles, etc. The average Brit doesn't care about any of this.
1
Borat: there is no "average Brit."
2
With respect Richard, I've heard no UK argument along the lines of lets make the UK great again. Rather the arguments seem more, well, lets make sure the UK remains the UK. And while I agree with you that the EU was created with the best of intentions, I see it as currently crumbling from within like all empires that fail to renew. And what is the EU parliament but merely a bureaucratic layer weighing down sovereign governments? And as for European mutual defence, what a joke! Do you really think the politicians that have taken over NATO might unanimously agree to war? Thats what it takes, and I submit that it is not possible. Its pretty clear that when you look at the European mess, the UK will be no worse off if it exits than if it stays. in.
Stop with all the hair pulling and gut wrenching. Leaving the EU will cement their autonomy and reinforce their commitment to their own culture. They were independent for centuries so I am sure they will be fine going back to that. The oligarchs are trying to centralize authority into smaller and smaller confines for their own benefit so an independent GB will be the antithesis of that.
31
And maybe the descendants of the CSA will start to push for "Rebexit" and demand they be allowed to leave the United States while still clinging to all the benefits derived from being a part of the United States.
Well, we'd like to make sure we receive the benefits we've already paid for over our working lives. The rest of it you can keep.
We'll save a fortune once we're able to reduce our military commitment since neither party left after the divorce will be large enough to field a force able to tell the world how to live.
It might work out better for the rest of the world as well. It needs to be more self sufficient instead of depending on the US to solve its problems. Surely they learned that after they ignored the mess in Yugoslavia.
We'll save a fortune once we're able to reduce our military commitment since neither party left after the divorce will be large enough to field a force able to tell the world how to live.
It might work out better for the rest of the world as well. It needs to be more self sufficient instead of depending on the US to solve its problems. Surely they learned that after they ignored the mess in Yugoslavia.
The E.U. was an animal conceived with too much Sand in the Concrete.
That it has stood this long is a miracle. It should have folded up, and crumbled, decades ago. Brexit will begin its inevitable demise.
From French Wh??es, to German Fa??ists, from Italian Inability to Govern, and Turkey's return to Militant Dictatorship, the European Union has proven itself Non-Tenable.
Regardless of short term disruptions, England will eventually prosper from departure. Why stay around and be part of the Demolition?
Thank God, it appears our Former-Mother-Country is regaining her sanity.
That it has stood this long is a miracle. It should have folded up, and crumbled, decades ago. Brexit will begin its inevitable demise.
From French Wh??es, to German Fa??ists, from Italian Inability to Govern, and Turkey's return to Militant Dictatorship, the European Union has proven itself Non-Tenable.
Regardless of short term disruptions, England will eventually prosper from departure. Why stay around and be part of the Demolition?
Thank God, it appears our Former-Mother-Country is regaining her sanity.
22
This is a hornets nest that was completely unnecessary. In an effort to unite his party on staying in the EU, Cameron rolls the dice after getting some concessions from Brussels, calling a referendum thinking that the result would be a foregone conclusion. A colossal and epic mistake. A long term blunder to ease a short term pain. Why risk everything to the vagaries of direct democracy? The first and last referendum in 1975 should have been allowed to settle the issue. The upshot here if Britain leaves won't really be the lack of market access to the Continent, though that is serious in and of itself, it will be to quell the restlessness of Scotland and Ireland, who want to remain in the Union. For this reason alone Britain must elect to Remain.
6
When read this article my first question was "who wrote this?". I sense that it is not fair and that there's some sort of agenda. With immigration alone, I really believe that there's a tipping point beyond which a country accepts immigrants at their peril if they're from widely different cultural backgrounds. Briton needs to do what's best for Briton.
12
The latest Civil War has found its first victim:
A modern woman, mother, and Parliamentarian,
One of modern Labour, i.e. back to real Workers' Party
- not Blair's fake neo-conservative "new labour".
Such people will not want to go back to Empire dreams,
When one third of the world is "ours".
It is not anymore:
It's just "this sceptered island"
- but it looks as if the Northern crown
Might fall to a national republic
Where salmon(d)s and sturgeons will "rule the waves"
To fight for the waters around their North Sea Oil.
"Alas, Britannia - I knew her well!"
And as a better land to live and love.
Ere a craze phantasy
Of being OH so special and so "different"..
Different from whom and what?
A stock of mainly German,
And upper class of francofied wild Vikings,
And a remainder still of Celtic DNA.
It's just a mishmash
- just a healthy mongrel,
As anywhere in Europe!
And now, that impure bulldog barks at
Alsations, Dalmatians, great Danes!
Is not a greater dog-food bowl much better
Than hunting on your own for meager mice?
It has gone bad in poor 'Old Blythe" lately,
It's not the old way life and feeling good:
Too much "I want" - class wise more than racial:
And some cry over "Muslims", 'Immigration!"
But all who did some terror were home-grown,
No refugee nor "EU-takes-my-jobber".
There is too much home-made uncertainty,
Insecure feeling, own home out of reach.
Especially the young suffer the most,
But this was not a youngster:
A true Brit has destroyed
The last bit of peace!
A modern woman, mother, and Parliamentarian,
One of modern Labour, i.e. back to real Workers' Party
- not Blair's fake neo-conservative "new labour".
Such people will not want to go back to Empire dreams,
When one third of the world is "ours".
It is not anymore:
It's just "this sceptered island"
- but it looks as if the Northern crown
Might fall to a national republic
Where salmon(d)s and sturgeons will "rule the waves"
To fight for the waters around their North Sea Oil.
"Alas, Britannia - I knew her well!"
And as a better land to live and love.
Ere a craze phantasy
Of being OH so special and so "different"..
Different from whom and what?
A stock of mainly German,
And upper class of francofied wild Vikings,
And a remainder still of Celtic DNA.
It's just a mishmash
- just a healthy mongrel,
As anywhere in Europe!
And now, that impure bulldog barks at
Alsations, Dalmatians, great Danes!
Is not a greater dog-food bowl much better
Than hunting on your own for meager mice?
It has gone bad in poor 'Old Blythe" lately,
It's not the old way life and feeling good:
Too much "I want" - class wise more than racial:
And some cry over "Muslims", 'Immigration!"
But all who did some terror were home-grown,
No refugee nor "EU-takes-my-jobber".
There is too much home-made uncertainty,
Insecure feeling, own home out of reach.
Especially the young suffer the most,
But this was not a youngster:
A true Brit has destroyed
The last bit of peace!
1
Whoever wrote this knows nothing about Great Britain. Would the USA sign up to join a completely undemocratic organization? NO. The Eu is the slowest growing continent apart from Antartica. However the EU suits US foreign policy. Sorry we are to become our own people a sovereign democratic nation.
Little England based on law, democracy, property rights, and freedom from EU tyranny. That will do nicely.
Little England based on law, democracy, property rights, and freedom from EU tyranny. That will do nicely.
11
Is it possible that much of the concern over Brexit arises from an anachronisticallhy inflated illusion about Britain's importance in the world?
The UK currently is at best a second-rate power and on its own will be no more than a third-rate nation-state.
Provided that it does not spin into one of its chronic panics, the European Community will lose little of any economic, military or strategic importance if the UK refuses to quit playing and and runs home with its cricket bat.
The UK currently is at best a second-rate power and on its own will be no more than a third-rate nation-state.
Provided that it does not spin into one of its chronic panics, the European Community will lose little of any economic, military or strategic importance if the UK refuses to quit playing and and runs home with its cricket bat.
1
Completely wrong. If you consider the world 5th largest economy and the EU's largest military as 'little of any economic, military or strategic importance' then you understanding of economics (and reality) is dismal.
1
" In less than a week, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland could be tearing up its European treaties and backing into Atlantic isolation."
Being outside the "EU" is not the same as being isolated. We will still be in NATO, the UN, the OECD, Uefa and loads of other stuff.
"Membership" of zthe "EU" increases trnsions betweeen countries and peoples.
I believe we could and should have a better relationship with other "EU" countries once we have left the "EU"
Languages could and should be taught a whole lot better. The could be used as they were in the Renaissance as a vehicle for learning. Kids coiuld be learning biology partly by watching German-language documenteries on it.
Trade could and should continue. It is the interests of the UK and continental countries to trade.
We just don't need the wasteful, dictatorial, bossy, interfering, megalomaniac, dangerous "EU" and neither does Europe as a whole.
Being outside the "EU" is not the same as being isolated. We will still be in NATO, the UN, the OECD, Uefa and loads of other stuff.
"Membership" of zthe "EU" increases trnsions betweeen countries and peoples.
I believe we could and should have a better relationship with other "EU" countries once we have left the "EU"
Languages could and should be taught a whole lot better. The could be used as they were in the Renaissance as a vehicle for learning. Kids coiuld be learning biology partly by watching German-language documenteries on it.
Trade could and should continue. It is the interests of the UK and continental countries to trade.
We just don't need the wasteful, dictatorial, bossy, interfering, megalomaniac, dangerous "EU" and neither does Europe as a whole.
6
The EU added too many countries , 27 of them, with completely different economic and political fundamentals too quickly.
Big error.
The funding countries may have enlarged the Common Market to the 27, but should have intruduced the Union, Schengen, the Euro, etc, for the first 9 countries only, via popular referendums.
Maybe, that could be the final outcome after a Brexit. It would be a good outcome.
Big error.
The funding countries may have enlarged the Common Market to the 27, but should have intruduced the Union, Schengen, the Euro, etc, for the first 9 countries only, via popular referendums.
Maybe, that could be the final outcome after a Brexit. It would be a good outcome.
1
'The Leavers’ Conservative leaders, assuming the mantle of a government in waiting, promise that “their” Britain could cover all the lost European subsidies and grants to farmers, poor regions, universities and schools. Evidence that they could find these additional billions is scant.'
That quite simply is not true.
The UK pays far more into the "EU" than it gets out. Even ludicrously pro-"EU"-biased German state TV, ARD recently showed the UK paying in billions more than it gets out.
Once we stop paying in, we will be able to use that money to cover "EU"-grants and still have some left over.
We will save money by not having to deal with the criminals and parasites that get to the UK from and through "EU"-countries.
We will recover out own fishing waters and should either stop foreign fishing vessels from using them or charge them for it.
The NY Times contains too muüch pro-"EU" propaganda.
I never read Pravda during the Sovier era, but that is what it makes me think of.
That quite simply is not true.
The UK pays far more into the "EU" than it gets out. Even ludicrously pro-"EU"-biased German state TV, ARD recently showed the UK paying in billions more than it gets out.
Once we stop paying in, we will be able to use that money to cover "EU"-grants and still have some left over.
We will save money by not having to deal with the criminals and parasites that get to the UK from and through "EU"-countries.
We will recover out own fishing waters and should either stop foreign fishing vessels from using them or charge them for it.
The NY Times contains too muüch pro-"EU" propaganda.
I never read Pravda during the Sovier era, but that is what it makes me think of.
12
"I never read Pravda during the Sovier era, but that is what it makes me think of."
Indeed. The more the NY Times and other American newspapers protest that they are not biased the more of those biases we see. One need only read the Times' articles on immigration, amnesty for illegals, pain killers used by the chronically hurting, guns and the death. If you've read one article on any of those subjects you've read them all.
Indeed. The more the NY Times and other American newspapers protest that they are not biased the more of those biases we see. One need only read the Times' articles on immigration, amnesty for illegals, pain killers used by the chronically hurting, guns and the death. If you've read one article on any of those subjects you've read them all.
1
There is a huge difference between defeatist and progressive approach. Rise of China rightly challenge old powers but point is how Russians and Americans are taking this challenge. Post WW2 power nexus is ready to break in which US, UK and USSR were key players. Writer smartly pinpointed internal challenges but major question is international Isolation. The world of Napoleon is coming back as he was the one who told Europeans that England is outside Europe. At 23rd June English people will prove either Napoleon was right or wrong. In many ways it will be more harmful than what Taliban government did with statutes of Buddha at Bamyan.
1
"Remainers predict an economic armageddon of lost growth, a devalued pound and withered City of London."
"EU"-fanatics have made loads of other prediction that turned out not to be true.
The went on about how the "EU" and the Euro would create jobs.
Unemployment in the "EU" is high. It is highest in the Eurozone and especially at the edge thereof.
We also know from bitter exoerience that many "EU"-fanatics are despicable liars.
It is reported that one major German bank stated publicly that the Euro was going to be great but that privately it told its richer cuustomers to get their money into Swiss Francs.
"EU"-asupporting politicians were elected on the promise of giving us a referendum on a new constitution. When they realised we were going to vote NO!! they changed the name of the political toxic waste to Lisbon Treaty and rammed it down our throats anyway without a referendum, which is why we are having this referendum.
About 82% wanted that referendum and 70% wanted to vote NO!!
"EU"-fanatics just cannot be trusted.
Hopefully there will be an out-vote ion Thursday and we can escape as soon as possible.
We shouldn't wait for two years before leaving.
"EU"-fanatics have made loads of other prediction that turned out not to be true.
The went on about how the "EU" and the Euro would create jobs.
Unemployment in the "EU" is high. It is highest in the Eurozone and especially at the edge thereof.
We also know from bitter exoerience that many "EU"-fanatics are despicable liars.
It is reported that one major German bank stated publicly that the Euro was going to be great but that privately it told its richer cuustomers to get their money into Swiss Francs.
"EU"-asupporting politicians were elected on the promise of giving us a referendum on a new constitution. When they realised we were going to vote NO!! they changed the name of the political toxic waste to Lisbon Treaty and rammed it down our throats anyway without a referendum, which is why we are having this referendum.
About 82% wanted that referendum and 70% wanted to vote NO!!
"EU"-fanatics just cannot be trusted.
Hopefully there will be an out-vote ion Thursday and we can escape as soon as possible.
We shouldn't wait for two years before leaving.
5
As one who has no personal stake but only intellectual curiosity in this matter, I wonder if the alarm over a possible British exit from the EU is not being overplayed. Call me naive, but the last time I checked, Britain's departure would not mean a cut off of all ties with Europe but a new relationship with EU and individual countries based on a reaffirmation of British sovereignty.
And Britain remains a vital global player. It's multisided and rich relationship with the Commonwealth countries spread over several continents, the U.S., Central and South America, the Middle East, African nations, China, Japan and a whole lot of other lands in Asia and elsewhere is growing wider and deeper to the benefit of all involved.
I don't see any catastrophe around the corner if Brexit comes to fruition.
And Britain remains a vital global player. It's multisided and rich relationship with the Commonwealth countries spread over several continents, the U.S., Central and South America, the Middle East, African nations, China, Japan and a whole lot of other lands in Asia and elsewhere is growing wider and deeper to the benefit of all involved.
I don't see any catastrophe around the corner if Brexit comes to fruition.
11
Britain's ambivalent relationship with Europe has a long history, going back to its very first efforts in the early Sixties to join what would become the European Union. DeGaulle vetoed British membership then; maybe he was presciently right after all? Here's a retrospective: https://medium.com/@FogyishFart/brexit-or-bremain-a8c34b606dd2#.1wwidgqgz
1
Without dissent, all of the usual suspects from the NYT's staff are taking the side championed as "free trade" that transfer power of government over to big business.
What is lacking is making a point of the fact that the citizens of Britain are allowed to vote and that Americans have no such power. What do you suppose might be the result if Americans were allowed the option to withdraw from various trade agreements to which our so-called elected representatives turned over the power of government to corporations?
What is lacking is making a point of the fact that the citizens of Britain are allowed to vote and that Americans have no such power. What do you suppose might be the result if Americans were allowed the option to withdraw from various trade agreements to which our so-called elected representatives turned over the power of government to corporations?
10
"What is lacking is making a point of the fact that the citizens of Britain are allowed to vote and that Americans have no such power."
Never mind Britain.
What do you think the vote would be if Americans were allowed to vote as to whether they could leave the present union they are in? Especially one which forced the Congress to do what we vote for.
I daresay that a majority would vote to leave and form new unions with a view towards common thoughts on what that union should be like.
What if the EU had the power to force Britain to stay under force of arms? Would it?
Never mind Britain.
What do you think the vote would be if Americans were allowed to vote as to whether they could leave the present union they are in? Especially one which forced the Congress to do what we vote for.
I daresay that a majority would vote to leave and form new unions with a view towards common thoughts on what that union should be like.
What if the EU had the power to force Britain to stay under force of arms? Would it?
it is all irrelevant. the EU is nearing its end. the profligate latin countries + greece will form their own trading bloc. thenorthern european contries + germany will form their own bloc. the eastern european countries will figure out where they belong. the UK will come closer to the US and commonwealth countries.
bottom line is life will go on.
bottom line is life will go on.
16
Keeping immigrants, who might be competing for jobs, out of a nation, is often a means to enable people who are not motivated, do not want to learn, and have no interest in gaining today's job skills, let alone those of tomorrow. Also, this immigrants who might compete for jobs will also, along with their families, will add to the consumer base.
So in effect, immigrants may be neutral about creating a job scarcity and, yet, a major factor in enlarging the economy.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
So in effect, immigrants may be neutral about creating a job scarcity and, yet, a major factor in enlarging the economy.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
2
This is what they keep telling us about the illegals swarming over our southern border. How they will increase the consumer base.
Except that we find the IRS complaining of $10 Billion in EITC fraud, billions more in stolen identification fraud filings for income taxes refunds, as well as the costs of educating them in two languages. Here in NC a ring was caught by postal inspectors after a retiree saw Latinos following the mail man and checking out mail boxes. It seems they were using them as mail drops. The IRS mailed out 14,000 checks to one address in Atlanta for nearly $10,000,000.
Yes. We need more of these "immigrants".
Except that we find the IRS complaining of $10 Billion in EITC fraud, billions more in stolen identification fraud filings for income taxes refunds, as well as the costs of educating them in two languages. Here in NC a ring was caught by postal inspectors after a retiree saw Latinos following the mail man and checking out mail boxes. It seems they were using them as mail drops. The IRS mailed out 14,000 checks to one address in Atlanta for nearly $10,000,000.
Yes. We need more of these "immigrants".
A nation with the UK’s sweeping global significance and manifest destiny is ill-suited to be an equal member of a one size fits all EU. Brexit or no, the UK and EU are too closely intertwined to cast each other off completely. Even after a Brexit, the two can, and probably will, continue to cooperate closely as friends with special benefits. So why remain yoked together in a burdensome relationship? In thirty years, if the EU still exists and if both parties still wish to get hitched, let the wedding bells ring then!
7
"Sweeping global significance?"
No, Kamesh, not since WWII and not so much since WWI.
The British Empire already is several chapters from the end of most modern history books
No, Kamesh, not since WWII and not so much since WWI.
The British Empire already is several chapters from the end of most modern history books
4
I am an ardent supporter of Britain remaining in the EU. It is our cowardice, our failure to engage Germany and France especially and demand equality that has left us as the moaning misery, always complaining and never cooperating. This led to a lack off respect and failure to listen on the part of our European colleagues and the result is this so called Brexit farce. The entire debate has been hijacked by the right wing and the rich, who will not face job losses and financial hardship, who see the possibility of riding roughshod over everyones rights as they make yet more profit. Our elected Members of the European Parliament have been total failures, because in some sort of bizarre charade, the people voted for anti-Europeans to represent them. Nigel Farage for instance, moaning a few days ago about UK fishermen and us having given away our fish stocks (not true), attended just 1 of 42 meetings he should have been at about fishing rights, stocks and preservation. Turned up for his salary increase votes though. The other MEP's on the right have been just as useless. Newspaper owners from Murdoch and The Sun to the right wing Daily Mail have waged an endless campaign for years, blaming the EU for anything and everything with farcical claims from the famous "straight Banana saga", to outright lies about EU policy. So much so that the argument was lost before it was begun, people now believe the myths. Say it loud enough for long enough and thats what happens.
20
Words not in this rant -
'Euro'
'Eurozone crisis'
'Migration crisis'
'unemployment'
'schengen'
'corruption'
If you cannot address the valid concerns of the Brexit supporters then Remain will lose.
'Euro'
'Eurozone crisis'
'Migration crisis'
'unemployment'
'schengen'
'corruption'
If you cannot address the valid concerns of the Brexit supporters then Remain will lose.
But what will they be left with? They will be left with a nation of their own, not part of the Euro-caliphate.
15
"This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,—
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England."
William Shakespeare
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,—
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England."
William Shakespeare
8
Robert Walther: this England! Not this Britain, and certainly not this UK. View "The Tudors" again and see how Britain was built.
There seems little point in covering news stories on the other side of the world if you understand so little about what is going on. For example, you ask where a post-Brexit government would get the billions to replace current EU funding? Well, we pay twice as much into the EU as we get out, so we could cover all current funding twice over. Useful to know details like that.
But leaving aside details - and the usual lazy nonsense about "post imperial malaise" - I would like to ask exactly when the US plans to sign up to a "union" consisting of every country in North, Central and South America, and contract out its government to this body? You would have, say, a 13% voting weight, so you would often be outvoted, but the rulings of this body would supersede US law, making Congress just a branch office that enacts decisions made elsewhere. Moreover, while you could trade freely within this area, you would not be able to sign trade agreements with anyone else unless the whole bloc wanted to do so, which they usually wouldn't. Oh, and it would cost you a fortune to belong.
Doesn't sound too tempting? Then why do you think any other country should put up with it?
But leaving aside details - and the usual lazy nonsense about "post imperial malaise" - I would like to ask exactly when the US plans to sign up to a "union" consisting of every country in North, Central and South America, and contract out its government to this body? You would have, say, a 13% voting weight, so you would often be outvoted, but the rulings of this body would supersede US law, making Congress just a branch office that enacts decisions made elsewhere. Moreover, while you could trade freely within this area, you would not be able to sign trade agreements with anyone else unless the whole bloc wanted to do so, which they usually wouldn't. Oh, and it would cost you a fortune to belong.
Doesn't sound too tempting? Then why do you think any other country should put up with it?
60
Thank you, Roger. If only most Americans had brains.
5
If I could, I would vote leave. This nonsense about little England. Highly insulting. Brits don't want to be lectured, as they are voting for their future. Have a look at shows where they discuss their future and you will be amazed at their poise, respect, even when told they are xenophobic for wanting to regulate a massive invasion of foreigners in their midst. I don't care if they come from other European countries. They are indeed invaded, meaning their wages go down, their access to medical care is compromised as their access to local schools for their children.
And please, for the "remain" camp, stop saying all those aging white folks will need medical assistance from foreigners. You know what, they still can choose which people will admit to the UK to take care of them.
And please, for the "remain" camp, stop saying all those aging white folks will need medical assistance from foreigners. You know what, they still can choose which people will admit to the UK to take care of them.
10
Notice that Mr Mortimer's comment does not refer directly to Neal Ascherson's article at any point. This is because there was nothing in it that interested him in any way. It simply provided him with an excuse to present Brexit to the world. There are, however, some key facts that I would like to add to the corpus presented in the article, that I think the little Englander would do well to take account of. One of these is to do with why Scotland is much more pro-European than England. It is not that English voters see the shortcomings of the EU while Scottish voters do not; it is because Scottish people see Brussels as impartial, while Westminster is not. In the decades following WWII the Scottish economy was asset stripped by the developing conglomerates in the South, with either acquiescence or tacit approval of those at Westminster. In the 1980s significant parts of Scottish industry were destroyed by the Thatcher government for ideological reasons. Scotland is too small an entity to survive without partnership in a larger union, but what it needs is a union that is eve handed, that does not seek to promote the interests of one region over another. The EU, for all its shortcomings, provides that in a way that Westminster never will. For that reason, the UK will not survive if Brexit prevails.
5
from this article, the sky is indeed falling. The Brits were right about the Euro (not joining), suspicious of free immigration (Germany and company are now backtracking their open door policies), have a fair argument over Brussels rules and regs dictating Engish way of life. De Gaulle said NON years ago to UK entering the Common Market (after they balied him out in the war: he was leading the Free French from behind 100 miles of English armor). Maybe it's time to say NON to the Euros?
11
It is simplistic to say that Great Britain would suffer tremendously for its decision. Britain is a global leader in many spheres, and that isn't taken away overnight. If a senior partner in any endeavor leaves that endeavor (business, international treaty, etc.) to strike out on their own, only fools predict calamity for them, for they possess the kernel of greatness (that is how they became the senior partner in the first place), and their leaving is a loss to those they leave, not to themselves. That kernel is inside them, and stays with them. The U.K. will prosper no matter what, because the nation wakes up every morning and works its special magic that evolved over millennia. The greater loss is to the middling partners they leave behind, who must now try to continue to project greatness where there is none any longer.
33
Your term "special magic" literally relies upon magical thinking.
Yes, Britain is a "global leader" in financial markets but no longer much else of any importance.
Try to specify three other important areas where Great Britain is "a global leader." Chalk production?
Yes, Britain is a "global leader" in financial markets but no longer much else of any importance.
Try to specify three other important areas where Great Britain is "a global leader." Chalk production?
1
Nice prose, but you must be living in a world of old books and fantasies.
It would be useful for you spend a couple of weeks around England, from Mayfair to Croydon, from Cambridge to Ipswich and assess how much of that special magic is around.
What's most inspiring of England these days is the pragmatism of its citizens and the multiculturalism and the wealth of London, the latter owing little to "Englishness". The rest is mostly folklore or fading memories.
It would be useful for you spend a couple of weeks around England, from Mayfair to Croydon, from Cambridge to Ipswich and assess how much of that special magic is around.
What's most inspiring of England these days is the pragmatism of its citizens and the multiculturalism and the wealth of London, the latter owing little to "Englishness". The rest is mostly folklore or fading memories.
Not so. The UK still has one of the world's liveliest arts sectors, with the West End theatre sector alone being a global powerhouse. So is its literary culture. You might think these things don't count for much compared to heavy industry, but there is a reason why so many British universities are in the top 50 worldwide - intellectually, the country punches above its weight.
The US was founded after independent from British Empire. Your founding fathers fight a war to "From Great Britain to 13 colonies". Back then thirteen colonies had a tighter connection and were much more dependent on British Empire than the UK to EU today and EU's burden on the UK is much more than Stamp Act and Townshend Acts. Was Thomas Jefferson xenophobic when he says "But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America."?
6
Slight correction: the UK and Ireland are not part of the Schengen Agreement. While EU membership implies the free movement of people as well as goods, the UK still applies border controls and still has passport checks. Anything you hear about Schengen, from Brexit proponents or anyone else, does not apply to the UK.
2
And we must flood the Chunnel. Keeps the refugees in France and the left-hand drive cars off European roads. Win-Win.
2
At the end of the 19th Century, England was the most powerful nation on earth and could justly state that the sun never set on its Empire. By the middle of the 20th Century, despite being on the winning side of two major world wars, the English had lost much of their Empire and actually wanted to shed more of it because they could not afford the cost. Now, in the early years of the 21st Century, we may well see England retreat back to its very early days in size, power, and influence, and, once again, England is doing this to itself as it seriously considers shedding what remains of its foreign entanglements because of the burdens they impose and their lack of perceived benefits.
History has a way of repeating itself. And, as history has shown, no empire has thus far survived for much more than several hundred years. This ought to be a warning sign to the US as well as we plan our future. We suffer from many of the same problems and issues that have driven the English desire to withdraw further from the world than it already has.
History has a way of repeating itself. And, as history has shown, no empire has thus far survived for much more than several hundred years. This ought to be a warning sign to the US as well as we plan our future. We suffer from many of the same problems and issues that have driven the English desire to withdraw further from the world than it already has.
2
The Roman Empire survived for 1000 years -- or 1500, depending on your definitions.
And, don't forget the Chineese dynasties, et al.
And, don't forget the Chineese dynasties, et al.
1
"The Roman Empire survived for 1000 years -- or 1500, depending on your definitions.'
The Roman Empire at most in it's highest glory days lasted less than 300 years. It's best time was approximately 100BCE to 200 CE. The rest of the time was spent fighting off slave rebellions, Barbarians and the constant turnover of dictators who poisoned each other off almost monthly. Their wars were fought by mercenaries and slaves outnumbered the free 10-1. The nuclear family had died out, sexual immorality was at its peak and under the Pater Potesta a man was allowed to murder his entire family if he wished. The Byzantines were split off by the fourth century.
The average empire lasts about 200 years and eventually collapses under the weight of the empire itself as well as taxation and politicians who legislate only for their own benefit and their sponsors.
Does that sound familiar?
The Roman Empire at most in it's highest glory days lasted less than 300 years. It's best time was approximately 100BCE to 200 CE. The rest of the time was spent fighting off slave rebellions, Barbarians and the constant turnover of dictators who poisoned each other off almost monthly. Their wars were fought by mercenaries and slaves outnumbered the free 10-1. The nuclear family had died out, sexual immorality was at its peak and under the Pater Potesta a man was allowed to murder his entire family if he wished. The Byzantines were split off by the fourth century.
The average empire lasts about 200 years and eventually collapses under the weight of the empire itself as well as taxation and politicians who legislate only for their own benefit and their sponsors.
Does that sound familiar?
It's Britain's decision, left to the people, and who can argue with that? All the posturing and politicking are meaningless. We should instead be heralding the democracy of it all.
As a nation, the people should be in control of their own destiny, not the elites or boardroom class who see only interruptions in their gravy train.
I frankly would like to see similar national referendums in the US, re: NAFTA, Gun Control, SIngle Payer Insurance, etc, etc. Our elected officials, even if they have good intentions to represent their districts when elected, clearly do not speak for their constituents once they arrive in the halls of Congress.
As a nation, the people should be in control of their own destiny, not the elites or boardroom class who see only interruptions in their gravy train.
I frankly would like to see similar national referendums in the US, re: NAFTA, Gun Control, SIngle Payer Insurance, etc, etc. Our elected officials, even if they have good intentions to represent their districts when elected, clearly do not speak for their constituents once they arrive in the halls of Congress.
19
"I frankly would like to see similar national referendums in the US, re: NAFTA, Gun Control, SIngle Payer Insurance, etc, etc."
Would your etc, etc, include a vote to dissolve the present union and allow those who want out to go? I'm betting not.
The British are freer than Americans in being able to say they want out.
Would your etc, etc, include a vote to dissolve the present union and allow those who want out to go? I'm betting not.
The British are freer than Americans in being able to say they want out.
Good graphic, Norma Bar, but I would have rotated the bottom right ten (or twenty) degrees clockwise, because it’s going to be a real downward slope. As for the article, Neal Ascherson nails it. As an Englishman who has lived in the US for forty years (though who delayed his US citizenship until a month ago), and therefore cannot vote in the referendum, I can only proclaim my fervent support to remain, and utter dismay at the campaign to manipulate my original countrymen into supporting Brexit. Should that campaign succeed, it will be a sad day for England, Britain, Europe, and indeed humanity as a whole. How reckless, and arrogant, it would be, in these deeply troubled times, when every strain of international cooperation is sorely needed to manage so many problems, for the British to try to go it alone. I weep at the prospect, and am in equal measure embarrassed, ashamed, and fearful.
2
the uk is not part of the schengen agreement and does check eu passports.
the people choosing to leave are driven by centuries old suspicions of "the continent", and for a large minority, racial dislike of south east asia and muslim immigrants.
the english still regret the loss of empire, and nostalgically believe they can recreate the good old days, somewhat like the republican yearning to return to the 1950s.
the people choosing to leave are driven by centuries old suspicions of "the continent", and for a large minority, racial dislike of south east asia and muslim immigrants.
the english still regret the loss of empire, and nostalgically believe they can recreate the good old days, somewhat like the republican yearning to return to the 1950s.
11
I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. i have said as much to many over the prior months. it is time for this country to take Europe and lead it. Germany doesn't want to, France under the atrociously mismanaged regime of President Hollande cannot and many other countries in the east and even Holland and denmark would support change, the change we want. Time to stand up and fight enthusiastically for a recasting of the EU mould. It won't be easy but it must be done.
1
Sounds like England is a faraway country of which you know nothing but your own prejudices.
How exactly would "racial dislike of south east asia and muslim immigrants" make Brits want to leave the EU, given that they, y'know, don't come from Europe in the first place?
How exactly would "racial dislike of south east asia and muslim immigrants" make Brits want to leave the EU, given that they, y'know, don't come from Europe in the first place?
7
Fuscia? it was bright green! It was visual-effects-masking green, as many pointed out. I think you might have seen a picture where such an effect was used.
I know it's not the point, I just felt the need to be a little frivolous what with all the bile this referendum is causing over here. It's getting scary.
I know it's not the point, I just felt the need to be a little frivolous what with all the bile this referendum is causing over here. It's getting scary.
2
There are always people who think that by gathering unto themselves, they will control better events or their lives. Like people here who think that their state governments will be more responsive to them than the national government. Nationalism was understandable when countries were controlled by others by force: i.e. the countries of the Austrian Hungarian empire or those under Russia. As it turns out, individuals in a "sovereign" country are less likely to confront their own political, economic, religious powers than those who are part of a larger entity that tries to establish over-arching rules. GB has a very regulated economy and many of the rules promulgated by the EU have to do with the liberalization of markets. For example, preventing communication giants from preying on customers. The complaint that the EU is run by bureaucrats is only partially true. Like in every government, from local, to state, to national, there are civil servants who work under elected officials. It might be mentioned that it was under the impulse of GB that the addition of new countries was put into place, so that the great degree of complexity derived from that could prevent a greater unification of the Union. If they withdraw, they will reverse the hard won victories of the two WW's. They will make possible the control of Europe by Germany, this time, to be sure, economically and political rather than military.
1
Ironic. They fought and sacrificed through WW2 to avoid becoming a part of a German dominated Europe. And then, they joined the EU.
It does not surprise me that for many in the UK, being sovereign British may be more important than macro-prosperity. What would Churchill have done?
It does not surprise me that for many in the UK, being sovereign British may be more important than macro-prosperity. What would Churchill have done?
15
Why in the world does Great Britain have to stay in the EU just so it will survive? If it can't survive without G.B., then it will perish sooner or later no matter if we stay or remain. The problem is structural. Like a Ponzi scheme, always adding more countries, what happens when they run out? The E.U. Project is terminal and we need to leave before we lose our identity.
14
If you feel your identity is so fragile that you can lose it perhaps that identity was not so deep in the first place and your particular version had passed its sell-by date.
3
Minnesota is in the United States, not Britain. Your identity is a long way from home, perhaps you've lost it. If perhaps you regain it by leavin th European Union then itl be the Scotts and Wels turn at an identity fre of english identity.
3
The EU is a system of giving some and getting some.
The UK has given quite a bit and got even more.
When Brexit happens, they will have to given much more to regain access to he common market and get even less for the same amount as they will then be outsiders.
There used to be times when British newspapers wrote "Fog over the Channel, Continent cut off".
This time the weather will stay clear but the continent will be cut off for quite a bit, even more so than in the old days when only the ferries did not work.
This time, the UK will have to completely reorient itself and will find itself further away from markets than just being a few kilometres off shore of the continent.
This time, the UK will find itself on the other side of the planet cut off from its major business partners.
I wonder if this is worth the notion of a "Britain First" or a "Splendid Isolation"?
Still, if the voters want it, they will get it and will have to live with it.
The UK has given quite a bit and got even more.
When Brexit happens, they will have to given much more to regain access to he common market and get even less for the same amount as they will then be outsiders.
There used to be times when British newspapers wrote "Fog over the Channel, Continent cut off".
This time the weather will stay clear but the continent will be cut off for quite a bit, even more so than in the old days when only the ferries did not work.
This time, the UK will have to completely reorient itself and will find itself further away from markets than just being a few kilometres off shore of the continent.
This time, the UK will find itself on the other side of the planet cut off from its major business partners.
I wonder if this is worth the notion of a "Britain First" or a "Splendid Isolation"?
Still, if the voters want it, they will get it and will have to live with it.
9
Another fear-mongering anti-Brexit piece full of drivel. Britain is net buyer in the EU and buyers are hard to come by these days. Unlike Switzerland or Norway, Britain is also a big producer. Aside from the financial stuff, Britain is also a magnet for tourism, culture, language, history etc.
The new normal, when it is reached, will be driven and catalyzed by these realities, much of it coming because of _outside_ interest. It's win-win all the way which is why the vote Brexit is likely to be overwhelming in favor.
What's really curious is the NYT's role in Brexit: a trickle of anti-Brexit articles turning into a now almost-daily campaign. Why? Because the CEO of the NYT is British? So what old chap? Nobody cares what the NYT thinks, John Cleese has more say. Give it a rest please. Even better, invite Cleese or Boris to opine here. Inform, that's what readers pay for.
The new normal, when it is reached, will be driven and catalyzed by these realities, much of it coming because of _outside_ interest. It's win-win all the way which is why the vote Brexit is likely to be overwhelming in favor.
What's really curious is the NYT's role in Brexit: a trickle of anti-Brexit articles turning into a now almost-daily campaign. Why? Because the CEO of the NYT is British? So what old chap? Nobody cares what the NYT thinks, John Cleese has more say. Give it a rest please. Even better, invite Cleese or Boris to opine here. Inform, that's what readers pay for.
54
I agree, this is another snide, nasty article from the NYT. You have to ask why they are constantly harping on about the horrors of the British exiting the EU. Thank you TMK for your excellent comment.
13
@Rachel
Very nice, thank you Rachel. Here in the US we don't grant honorary knighthoods, but direct thanks in the comment section gets awfully close imho. So many thanks again for the kind words.
As to why the NYT is joining the chorus of soulful "please don't leave" elegy, I've speculated that it has to do with the CEO of the NYT being British, a certain Mr. Mark Thompson. Sadly Brexit will not force re-negotiation of his tenure, but, who knows, it just might spur acceleration of his integration here.
pip pip
- Sir TMK
Very nice, thank you Rachel. Here in the US we don't grant honorary knighthoods, but direct thanks in the comment section gets awfully close imho. So many thanks again for the kind words.
As to why the NYT is joining the chorus of soulful "please don't leave" elegy, I've speculated that it has to do with the CEO of the NYT being British, a certain Mr. Mark Thompson. Sadly Brexit will not force re-negotiation of his tenure, but, who knows, it just might spur acceleration of his integration here.
pip pip
- Sir TMK
11
"What's really curious is the NYT's role in Brexit: a trickle of anti-Brexit articles turning into a now almost-daily campaign. Why? "
TMK, the shrill clucking efforts to get all the NYT editorial writer ducklings in line seems explained by the fact that big business wants to buy governments' roles in copyrights, trademarks, truth in labeling, price-setting, gmos, interest rates---you name it. Both our U.S. government and the NYT are staffed by people who want to sell power to govern citizens rights and choices over to big business. It is easy to see from Times' comments that the NYT cares more about its paying corporate advertisers than it does about its readers who seek some honest information. Seeking honest information in the NYT has become a lost cause, as this case of one-sided presentation shows.
TMK, the shrill clucking efforts to get all the NYT editorial writer ducklings in line seems explained by the fact that big business wants to buy governments' roles in copyrights, trademarks, truth in labeling, price-setting, gmos, interest rates---you name it. Both our U.S. government and the NYT are staffed by people who want to sell power to govern citizens rights and choices over to big business. It is easy to see from Times' comments that the NYT cares more about its paying corporate advertisers than it does about its readers who seek some honest information. Seeking honest information in the NYT has become a lost cause, as this case of one-sided presentation shows.
7
Britain was "great" when it acted like a country -- it would be diminishing itself if it insisted on continuing to surrenderi its sovereignty to bureaucrats in Brussels.
11
To those of you who imagine that Scotland will never break away from England. Have any of you ever actually been in Scotland? I have, and what strikes me is that you almost never see the Union Jack flying there, but you do see the Cross of St. Andrew flying from every pole.
21
It's a long way, Mark, between London and Scotland and not one l think you travel. Your dismissal of the Scots' desire for independence as being linked only to the price of oil ironically illustrates the concept of the little Englander. If Britain leaves the European Union, then Scotland will follow its example and leave Britain. The Union - it's doomed I tell ye, doomed.
6
Harking back to the perceived "good old days" is dreaming of a past
which -maybe- never was.
There still will be Calais with its unfortunate masses trying to get to little England and maybe France will facilitate their departure. After all little Englnd is not a member of the club which needs protecting.
Who will pay the subsidies to farmers, built infrastructure paid currently by the EU etc.
Will the no-voters still be able to get to Benidorm for their fish and chips without a visa?
The British pensioners in Spain, benefitting from the superior health care, where will they go? Back to little England?
Unfortunately there are too many lies and too much ignorance. Maybe the masses are not educated enough -in all countries- to participate in any referndum.
Maybe there should be tests or exams before anyone can participate in a referendum.
Knowledge required before participation.???
which -maybe- never was.
There still will be Calais with its unfortunate masses trying to get to little England and maybe France will facilitate their departure. After all little Englnd is not a member of the club which needs protecting.
Who will pay the subsidies to farmers, built infrastructure paid currently by the EU etc.
Will the no-voters still be able to get to Benidorm for their fish and chips without a visa?
The British pensioners in Spain, benefitting from the superior health care, where will they go? Back to little England?
Unfortunately there are too many lies and too much ignorance. Maybe the masses are not educated enough -in all countries- to participate in any referndum.
Maybe there should be tests or exams before anyone can participate in a referendum.
Knowledge required before participation.???
6
Britain won't leave the European Union. The political posturing and heated rhetoric notwithstanding, Britons would rather stand atop the mismatched and ill-conceived jumble that is the EU than stand alone, without trade preferences and unfettered access to broader markets just a channel crossing away. They will vote in substantial numbers to leave, predominantly as a collective reassertion of a unique cultural identity -- but they know in they hearts that Britain "can't quit" it's centuries-deep roots in France and Germany. They know that a unified Europe, despite the diluted sovereignty and culture clashes that characterize it, is better on virtually every front. From shared security, to easier commerce, to freer travel, it's a good deal from which Britain won't walk away.
2
I think it's always better to have a seat at the table then not. I'm not sure Britain benefits by this move.
44
I agree. In addition, the EU itself urgently needs substantial radical (at its roots) reforms. If only EU leading politicians would listen to their people. They still have time to do so, but not for long. If the UK leaves the EU, then at least I hope it functions as "choq de grace" toppling the EU out of its stupor, thereby marking the end of business as usual and the bold beginning of a new EU of which the UK is a member, too.
It is not always better to sit at the table.
A very experienced German TV-journalist stated that in the "EU" people did not stick to agreements. He stated that Greece and Italy have never stuck to agreements.
What is the point in sitting at a table and making agreements with people who do not stick to them?
And then there is the behaviour of French president's who have told other heads of government that they "missed an opportunity to keep quiet."
Get us out now!
A very experienced German TV-journalist stated that in the "EU" people did not stick to agreements. He stated that Greece and Italy have never stuck to agreements.
What is the point in sitting at a table and making agreements with people who do not stick to them?
And then there is the behaviour of French president's who have told other heads of government that they "missed an opportunity to keep quiet."
Get us out now!
1
A great deal of hyperbole is taking place with this Brexit thing. The outcome of a yes is not likely to translate into a cataclysm nor a bonanza. Treaties signed with Europe will continues to be upheld and Britain will continue to subsidies the EU at about the current rate, just as Norway and Switzerland do although they're not EU members. Then there's Scotland which according to Sturgeon is 100% pro EU and for sure a yes vote would propel to Independence. It remains to be seen if the Scots are in fact so enamored with the EU. There are legitimate concerns of course but much of it is posturing.
6
If Brittain leaves the EU they will not be able to get the preferential treatment Norway and Swiss receive unless they follow all the EU rules they so seem to despise ...
If England down the road finds itself alone lets invite it into the Union.
4
That would be a comedown for England: becoming a colony of a bunch of colonists.
1
Wouldn't life be better with a bit less globalization?
Every country keeping some of its own unique features, and people, and values?
Technology and money, and tourists, and scholars, and business, should be able to travel with ease across (TSA pre-checked), but a globalization driven flattening out of any differences has a price.
For once, all being equal, people in the U.S. aren't that great or special. We can have cheaper manufacturing overseas, outsourced programmers, why not bring in some much needed medical doctors, dentists and obviously lawyers?
There are advantages, like a non-declining population, avoiding secular stagnation, but wouldn't you want to have the sovereign ability to balance out these forces through a democratic process? Who cares if you will pay more for lamb from new-zealand or wine from Australia, or made in USA shoes? Why keep on going with this race to the bottom? The world can produce enough stuff, cheap, we need to take care of people instead.
Instead of having more diversity, which we strive for, we're becoming one stinky uber-capitalist mesh.
Every country keeping some of its own unique features, and people, and values?
Technology and money, and tourists, and scholars, and business, should be able to travel with ease across (TSA pre-checked), but a globalization driven flattening out of any differences has a price.
For once, all being equal, people in the U.S. aren't that great or special. We can have cheaper manufacturing overseas, outsourced programmers, why not bring in some much needed medical doctors, dentists and obviously lawyers?
There are advantages, like a non-declining population, avoiding secular stagnation, but wouldn't you want to have the sovereign ability to balance out these forces through a democratic process? Who cares if you will pay more for lamb from new-zealand or wine from Australia, or made in USA shoes? Why keep on going with this race to the bottom? The world can produce enough stuff, cheap, we need to take care of people instead.
Instead of having more diversity, which we strive for, we're becoming one stinky uber-capitalist mesh.
88
It must be that stupidity is passed from one side of the pond to the other, whichever went first I'm not sure.
If this isn't a story about cutting off your own nose in the mistaken idea that it will make you wealthy, pretty, witty and more fun at parties, I don't know what is. There is no problem within the EU that leaving it will solve, while the act of leaving will create a vacuum that will be felt not only in England but across the EU and the Atlantic, and will include currency, banking and economic instability and the rise of 1930s-style trade wars. Putin will rightfully take it as a sign that the west's institutions are crumbling and the peace of the post-Cold War will retreat further still.
I am praying - particularly after today's ghastly murder of MP Cox - that the Brits will do what they've always done - button down and carry on and refuse to burn down their own house just because it might feel good at the moment.
If this isn't a story about cutting off your own nose in the mistaken idea that it will make you wealthy, pretty, witty and more fun at parties, I don't know what is. There is no problem within the EU that leaving it will solve, while the act of leaving will create a vacuum that will be felt not only in England but across the EU and the Atlantic, and will include currency, banking and economic instability and the rise of 1930s-style trade wars. Putin will rightfully take it as a sign that the west's institutions are crumbling and the peace of the post-Cold War will retreat further still.
I am praying - particularly after today's ghastly murder of MP Cox - that the Brits will do what they've always done - button down and carry on and refuse to burn down their own house just because it might feel good at the moment.
5
"Is it a baseless panic?"
It is not 'panic'. It is that the people who sacrificed and worked hard for their country for generations want to reap the rewards themselves, as opposed to opening the door to immigrants who arrive en masse for all the 'freebies'.
Politicians in the UK and the US have flatly denied this is happening and ignored the anger of their people about this issue for decades upon decades.
The reason they do so is because all politicians are firmly in the 1%, so they know they not only will not be negatively affected by this, but will benefit.
It is not 'panic'. It is that the people who sacrificed and worked hard for their country for generations want to reap the rewards themselves, as opposed to opening the door to immigrants who arrive en masse for all the 'freebies'.
Politicians in the UK and the US have flatly denied this is happening and ignored the anger of their people about this issue for decades upon decades.
The reason they do so is because all politicians are firmly in the 1%, so they know they not only will not be negatively affected by this, but will benefit.
78
Perhaps this explains the reason for Trump's popularity here in the US....
I think you will find that a significant portion of British MOs, especially but not unilaterally the Labour Party ones, are a hell of a long way away from being part of this 1% so many people are obsessed with.
This silly narrative has to stop. As a card carrying member of the 99% myself, I deeply resent that others feel that they speak on my behalf.
This silly narrative has to stop. As a card carrying member of the 99% myself, I deeply resent that others feel that they speak on my behalf.
1
Being an EU citizen (with American Citizenship), apparently your words are misguided. Britain is against ALL immigrants (not just illegal ones). But, many immigrants from France, Spain, Italy and other countries have helped proved to help Britain increase it's productivity!
The reason many unskilled Europeans want to work in Britain, is that they have VERY lax labor laws (just like the US), where companies will hire someone from Poland for less, and the Polish person is happy, because he couldn't find a job elsewhere!
France and other countries have a higher minimum wage and you can't pay people dirt for their work!
The reason many unskilled Europeans want to work in Britain, is that they have VERY lax labor laws (just like the US), where companies will hire someone from Poland for less, and the Polish person is happy, because he couldn't find a job elsewhere!
France and other countries have a higher minimum wage and you can't pay people dirt for their work!
If being dictated to by unaccountable elites in a distant land is your sort of thing, then by all means vote Remain.
52
The distance between Britain and the 'distant land' is as little as 23 miles at one point and the UK, as do all EU members, provides representatives to your supposed "unaccountable elites". Frankly, Patrick, in the future I think you should stick to talking about events which happen no further than 2 miles radius of where you live. No, make that 100 yards;
1
How would Britain become "less regulated and more unequal" with a Brexit? Does Britain not know how to regulate itself and ensure equality among its citizens? Statements like that just drive me nuts. Give me some reasoning, please.
45
The short term effect of Brexit would most likely be an extremely right wing government led by Boris Johnson. In power until 2020 at least, and certain to implement less regulation of business. With a free market ideology that will benefit the few at the expense of the rest. Against a background of economic and political difficulties caused by Brexit.
The only hope is that this period of government would lead to a reawakening of a desire for a more equitable and cohesive society, and a realisation that the likes of Johnson and Gove do not particularly care for the needs of the average citizen. I am in a rural area in the North of England, and hoping that we vote to Remain.
The only hope is that this period of government would lead to a reawakening of a desire for a more equitable and cohesive society, and a realisation that the likes of Johnson and Gove do not particularly care for the needs of the average citizen. I am in a rural area in the North of England, and hoping that we vote to Remain.
2
Free markets and less regulation would be good for Britain's economy. Consumers would benefit, jobs would benefit. To argue that this is bad in some way seems to make little sense. You need better reasons than that to vote against a Brexit. No wonder it is so popular.
It would indeed be a shame if Britain were to leave Europe. During the year I spent living in Oxford, it seemed they had the best of both worlds. They had their own government and currency to serve as a buffer to Brussels yet it seemed so exotic and luxurious to have the ability to pop over to France for lunch and go grocery shopping or decide to move to Florence for a job. I don't think they realize how much influence they have on the European Union just as it seems that Mexico has a huge influence on California because of all the Spanish billboards and Mexican restaurants but we don't realize that California has a much bigger influence on Mexico.
US newspapers seem to be dismayed that the UK would want to leave an organisation as noble as the EU. W
Would Americans ever vote to join an organisation that would allow anyone from Mexico and Central America the right to live and work permanently in the US? What if the organisation says that the people coming in must receive immediate welfare benefits as well? Would they like to be part of an organisation that says that a US supreme court decision can be appealed to Venezuela?
I doubt most Americans would be in favor of this. Maybe that explains a bit why a lot of people in the U.K. are not thrilled about EU membership.
Would Americans ever vote to join an organisation that would allow anyone from Mexico and Central America the right to live and work permanently in the US? What if the organisation says that the people coming in must receive immediate welfare benefits as well? Would they like to be part of an organisation that says that a US supreme court decision can be appealed to Venezuela?
I doubt most Americans would be in favor of this. Maybe that explains a bit why a lot of people in the U.K. are not thrilled about EU membership.
85
The New York Times is on an anti-Brexit spree. Just look at the recent articles all against Brexit in the last 1-2 days.
'From Great Britain to Little England' June 16
'Britain's Dangerous urge to go it alone' June 17
'Brexit would be Colossal Blunder' June 16
Fear, Loathing and Brexit June 17
Why the Brexit warnings....... June 17
And I didn't even actively search for these. They all just appeared in the 'feed' for the article I was reading.
'From Great Britain to Little England' June 16
'Britain's Dangerous urge to go it alone' June 17
'Brexit would be Colossal Blunder' June 16
Fear, Loathing and Brexit June 17
Why the Brexit warnings....... June 17
And I didn't even actively search for these. They all just appeared in the 'feed' for the article I was reading.
2
Well, when (not "if", "when") Scotland votes nationalist and leaves the "United Kingdom" (to reintegrate with "Brussels", or "Euroland", one supposes) followed by Wales, that leaves behind what exactly? Just the pint-sized (and not even an English pint at that) rump built over what was once English Mercia, Viking Mercia, Wessex and the Kingdom of Guthrum. A state the size of Belgium with a bit of south Holland thrown in mainly out of laziness.
Any smaller, Sark might launch a coup. The Mouse that roared! Maybe the English will surrender to the Dame of Sark (or Leopold, her Great Dane).
Danes everywhere in this play. Yorkists might launch an insurrection to reclaim the throne or reunify with Denmark.
Or, those nasty Celts, aka "the Irish", might invade; an interesting historical turnabout given how for centuries the inter-island invasion route ran east to west.
France might cede back Calais, England's last toehold on the continent, dumping its problem with thousands of stranded Afghan and North African migrants trying to sneak into England via the "Chunnel".
The Royal Family will probably need to down-size to a Volkswagen; not much of a stretch since the Windsors are actually German, of the House of Saxe Coburg Gotha, if I spelled that right.
Or, they can suck it up, stay in the EU and prosper.
Rupert Murdoch, that great Brexit advocate, will just have to content himself by wrecking someone else's country. He's already ruined ours -- Donald Trump being his creature.
Any smaller, Sark might launch a coup. The Mouse that roared! Maybe the English will surrender to the Dame of Sark (or Leopold, her Great Dane).
Danes everywhere in this play. Yorkists might launch an insurrection to reclaim the throne or reunify with Denmark.
Or, those nasty Celts, aka "the Irish", might invade; an interesting historical turnabout given how for centuries the inter-island invasion route ran east to west.
France might cede back Calais, England's last toehold on the continent, dumping its problem with thousands of stranded Afghan and North African migrants trying to sneak into England via the "Chunnel".
The Royal Family will probably need to down-size to a Volkswagen; not much of a stretch since the Windsors are actually German, of the House of Saxe Coburg Gotha, if I spelled that right.
Or, they can suck it up, stay in the EU and prosper.
Rupert Murdoch, that great Brexit advocate, will just have to content himself by wrecking someone else's country. He's already ruined ours -- Donald Trump being his creature.
4
Neal Ascherson is a brilliant man who is now very old and, based on this article, entirely out of touch. The reasons for possible withdrawal are far more rational and far more complex than he says and have little to do with xenophobia. His analysis is also flawed regarding the likely outcome in Scotland. His Little Englander epithet is flawed. The Brexit supporters are actually far more internationalist than the Remainers. Europe is made up of 28 countries that take years to make any kind of agreement with anyone. For example, there are no trade agreements with either China or India. The 'free trade area', which is actually more protectionist in outlook than free trade, actually has tariffs typically in the range of 3%, not enough to make a difference. The likely fall in the £ will make it easier to export. British exports to Europe are falling like a log yet with proper trade relations directly negotiated it can increase that proportion to Asia in particular. Europe's growth is terrible - only Antarctica is worse. Britain's creating more jobs than the rest of Europe put together with an economic model totally at conflict with the European model and more in line with the US.
20
Brexit indeed will give more control to the Brits; they will no longer subsidize poorer European countries, nor cede power to Brussels. Current predictions of economic gloom and doom upon exit are overblown. Brexit will not hurt Britain; it will hurt EU. If it were to exit, I expect each EU country to try and make a side trade deal without a moment's hesitation. This one is for EU to lose.
Did Norway disintegrate outside EU? Norway has oil, you might say. Well, UK has innovation and products that the world wants, world class financial services, and a great central bank. Too many times, in the last 30 years, the French-German consortiums have muscled the Brits out of lucrative deals. There is no evidence of profligacy that ails the PIIGs.
UK does not belong in fortress EU. France cannot make a car to save its life, Germans are susceptible to Chinese knockoffs. Neither can be counted upon by us as allies. East European members have only distant acquaintance with democracy.
UK is a global citizen; a free bird. It stood by us for Iraq; and our steadfast ally. As an Anglophile, I support the Brexit. Not because an overwhelming majority of British louts, and the South London Cockneys support it while the Oxbridge toffs want to stay in, but because it makes sociopolitical and economic sense. What EU might want to do in the next week is to make major concessions to the Brits, so that they are enticed to stay. Or else.
Kalidan
Did Norway disintegrate outside EU? Norway has oil, you might say. Well, UK has innovation and products that the world wants, world class financial services, and a great central bank. Too many times, in the last 30 years, the French-German consortiums have muscled the Brits out of lucrative deals. There is no evidence of profligacy that ails the PIIGs.
UK does not belong in fortress EU. France cannot make a car to save its life, Germans are susceptible to Chinese knockoffs. Neither can be counted upon by us as allies. East European members have only distant acquaintance with democracy.
UK is a global citizen; a free bird. It stood by us for Iraq; and our steadfast ally. As an Anglophile, I support the Brexit. Not because an overwhelming majority of British louts, and the South London Cockneys support it while the Oxbridge toffs want to stay in, but because it makes sociopolitical and economic sense. What EU might want to do in the next week is to make major concessions to the Brits, so that they are enticed to stay. Or else.
Kalidan
29
Sadly, there are very few Cockneys left in South London these days!
Ascherson's comment about xenophobia shows that he's lost any sense of reality. The British universally approve of immigration. What they don't want is unfettered immigration of people who don't have the relevant skills. Brexit has proposed a system similar to Australia which, by the way, brings in more than twice as many people as the UK. But it brings in people with skills. Immigrants on average pay more in taxes than they use in services; unfortunately there are a lot of unskilled workers, particularly from Eastern Europe who have moved into areas such as East Anglia where they are dominating the schools and the hospitals - local children cannot get into their local state schools and the hospitals are overfull. So that has had a big effect - but that doesn't mean that these people are anti-immigration. Britain is very assimilated. I live in the town of Amersham that has just been measured as the most assimilated town in the UK. I now plenty of Jews, Indians and others who are living here and voting exit because of the problems they see across the country. By the way, we will probably see more Hindus, Rastas and other groups coming to the UK if Brexit wins.
39
"Ascherson's comment about xenophobia shows that he's lost any sense of reality."
You are arguing against the NY Times' favorite counter argument to anyone asking for even a bit more control over immigration and border crossings: it's xenophobic.
You are arguing against the NY Times' favorite counter argument to anyone asking for even a bit more control over immigration and border crossings: it's xenophobic.
1
If England leaves then what does it matter to us? Will England's sink beneath the waves or crumble into dust? I doubt it. England will still trade, tourists will come and go and immigrants will arrive on their shores. And if England decides that English should remain the official language then what right do others have to say no to them? If a majority of English wish to reclaim sovereignty then what does it matter to us and what right do we have to say no? There are plenty of bullies in the world who wish to tell others how to live and how to think. If the English wish it then God save the Queen.
28
My final point is about the democracy. The system in Europe would never be tolerated in the US. The European parliament is elected by the people. The parliament is unique for a 'democracy' in that it cannot propose or overturn legislation. It can discuss and pass legislation but that is all. The unelected element of the EU proposes the laws and is pushing (to give it credit it is open about this) for a fully federal integrated EU ignoring the cultural, linguistic and other differences between nations that should be Europe's strengths. As a result, there is now huge anti-EU sentiment right across Europe - Britain is one of the less anti-EU nations! But in any event, Europe will fall. The death spiral of the Italian economy makes the Eurozone unmanageable and when it does erupt in true Versuvius style expect nobody to save it, not even Germany. And then Europe's integration will sadly be at an end.
BTW, Scotland won't leave. It depends on oil and the price of it means there is no economic rationale for exit, nor the will amongst the Scottish people. In fact, many more Scots are voting for exit than anyone expected.
Apart from all of these, Ascherson is spot on. (That's British sarcasm). But he is still a man who had a brilliant mind.
BTW, Scotland won't leave. It depends on oil and the price of it means there is no economic rationale for exit, nor the will amongst the Scottish people. In fact, many more Scots are voting for exit than anyone expected.
Apart from all of these, Ascherson is spot on. (That's British sarcasm). But he is still a man who had a brilliant mind.
7
You did not give the full story, that England has been burdened with Eastern Europeans for over 20 years, who climbed onto their benefits rolls, took their housing, and provided cheap labor at the expense of English workers. The economic migrants coming from Africa and the Middle East are the last straws. Also, the North of England has had numerous cases of Middle Eastern men trafficking young English girls, and the police unwilling to investigate due to the fear of being labeled racist.
66
You also don't give the whole story; as few do today. Here we have you spreading the fear and bigotry argument; and on the other side we have the NYT giving us the EU white wash.
You are both two dishonest sides of the same propaganda exaggerations. No balance, not reason just moral (or in your case immoral posturing). THe NYT misses out the real problems with the EU and you demonize non Brits while forgetting all the crimes, pedophile cases (Jimmy Saville and all to many Tory MPS; all white too!).
And IF the police DID not investigate a Crime; the police often do wrong things (think Football tragedy; that killed Hundreds but was covered up by lying Police chiefs who blamed the working class victims like you blame foreigners for corrupt police work.
A British woman politician was killed to day, for standing up for the immigrants you demonize, by a man who thinks like you do! Think about it!
You are both two dishonest sides of the same propaganda exaggerations. No balance, not reason just moral (or in your case immoral posturing). THe NYT misses out the real problems with the EU and you demonize non Brits while forgetting all the crimes, pedophile cases (Jimmy Saville and all to many Tory MPS; all white too!).
And IF the police DID not investigate a Crime; the police often do wrong things (think Football tragedy; that killed Hundreds but was covered up by lying Police chiefs who blamed the working class victims like you blame foreigners for corrupt police work.
A British woman politician was killed to day, for standing up for the immigrants you demonize, by a man who thinks like you do! Think about it!
2
This is a grossly offensive and misleading comment.
I am one of these so-called Eastern Europeans "burdening" England. My husband and I - both Oxbridge graduates - contribute a small fortune in taxes and have never claimed a single benefit. I know we are not necessarily the norm, but here are some FACTS for you:
- EU citizens have contributed more than £3bn in income tax, while claiming £0.5bn in benefits (HM Revenue & Customs)
- EU citizens have contributed some £20bn to the UK economy (UCL)
- European migrants are more likely to have a university degree than the average Brit (UCL)
- UK unemployment is now at 5% (Office of National Statistics)
- Real wage growth rose 2.3% (Office of National Statistics)
There's no denying that migration has put pressure on some social services - but the strain currently felt is also due to the government's austerity policies and Osborne's almost fanatical need to cut spending (all the while lowering the capital gains tax rate by 8%) and the continuation of right-to-buy, removing social housing from the market while not building more.
I write this as a centrist who supports some Tory benefits cuts and a crack down on benefits cheats & illegal immigration. But what I cannot support is the casual racism against Eastern Europeans that has become so pervasive and somehow acceptable in the UK.
Trying to reason with anti-immigrant Brexiteers is now akin to reasoning with anti-vaxxers: devoid of any logic, rationality or facts.
I am one of these so-called Eastern Europeans "burdening" England. My husband and I - both Oxbridge graduates - contribute a small fortune in taxes and have never claimed a single benefit. I know we are not necessarily the norm, but here are some FACTS for you:
- EU citizens have contributed more than £3bn in income tax, while claiming £0.5bn in benefits (HM Revenue & Customs)
- EU citizens have contributed some £20bn to the UK economy (UCL)
- European migrants are more likely to have a university degree than the average Brit (UCL)
- UK unemployment is now at 5% (Office of National Statistics)
- Real wage growth rose 2.3% (Office of National Statistics)
There's no denying that migration has put pressure on some social services - but the strain currently felt is also due to the government's austerity policies and Osborne's almost fanatical need to cut spending (all the while lowering the capital gains tax rate by 8%) and the continuation of right-to-buy, removing social housing from the market while not building more.
I write this as a centrist who supports some Tory benefits cuts and a crack down on benefits cheats & illegal immigration. But what I cannot support is the casual racism against Eastern Europeans that has become so pervasive and somehow acceptable in the UK.
Trying to reason with anti-immigrant Brexiteers is now akin to reasoning with anti-vaxxers: devoid of any logic, rationality or facts.
2
The English already have one foot out the door since they never adopted the Euro, unlike others in the Union. Frankly, some Europeans really couldn't care less if they finally made up their minds and left for good, thereby confirming the English need to be exceptional. Then at least they would no longer have their cake and eat it too.
2
Excellent and very elaborate article.
In fact post WWII was starkly different than post WWI. UK after WWI was immediately sidelined by European power house and didn't assert it view. the result was a horrendous WWII.
But lesson was learned by then, war was fought very bitterly in British land, Europe was and will be affecting the Britain. No way to escape this fate.
Today after a golden 1990's we are in very down going 2000's. When the new generation emerged on the scene around 2000, practically 20th century history was faded. WWII, Cold war etc.
In fact, late 1990's bring back WWI legacy immediately, Yugoslavian civil war. Europe hasn't matured yet, we understand but also we were complacent, we neglected.
EU is the crossroads of World civilization, if it disintegrates world will be suffering another long period of geopolitical upheaval. That will remind the lessons of 20th century.
EU prosperity is not perpetual, it is solely depended on it unity, WWI and WWII created unimaginable level of poverty as well as , pain . millions lost their lives.
New generation doesn't appreciate what was achieved post WWII, but they really need to read, watch and learn 20th century Europe history.
Other wise Adolf Hitler is just a name, many Adolf's were on the line to create wreak havoc in Europe.
EU's main should not be ignored and official anthem words should comprehended.
If we don't unite , what kind of ill is waiting in 21st century to us cannot be imagined.
In fact post WWII was starkly different than post WWI. UK after WWI was immediately sidelined by European power house and didn't assert it view. the result was a horrendous WWII.
But lesson was learned by then, war was fought very bitterly in British land, Europe was and will be affecting the Britain. No way to escape this fate.
Today after a golden 1990's we are in very down going 2000's. When the new generation emerged on the scene around 2000, practically 20th century history was faded. WWII, Cold war etc.
In fact, late 1990's bring back WWI legacy immediately, Yugoslavian civil war. Europe hasn't matured yet, we understand but also we were complacent, we neglected.
EU is the crossroads of World civilization, if it disintegrates world will be suffering another long period of geopolitical upheaval. That will remind the lessons of 20th century.
EU prosperity is not perpetual, it is solely depended on it unity, WWI and WWII created unimaginable level of poverty as well as , pain . millions lost their lives.
New generation doesn't appreciate what was achieved post WWII, but they really need to read, watch and learn 20th century Europe history.
Other wise Adolf Hitler is just a name, many Adolf's were on the line to create wreak havoc in Europe.
EU's main should not be ignored and official anthem words should comprehended.
If we don't unite , what kind of ill is waiting in 21st century to us cannot be imagined.
5
Kind of funny that Germany is in the center of the EU dreams. Isn't it a sort of reincarnation of their imperialistic dreams?
1
Sovereignty is rapidly becoming less meaningful in a closely-knit world with instantaneous communication and rapid transportation to far-away places. It's essence, though, it remains relevant in the limits it creates. The sovereign limits of an independent Britain (or England if it comes to that) will inherently minimize it. Would an England alone warrant a place on the UN Security Council? It would remain in the G-7, but it would be smaller and probably drop behind several other nations in importance. Its former colonies are less attuned to the Commonwealth as they have grown in importance themselves, so England will continue to diminish.
The Brexit will also surely create trade issues as England will have to adhere to EU rules to sell there (over 50% of its trade), but it will have no voice now. The world's focus in Europe will move from London to Berlin in an ironic twist. Americans should beware of this lesson as we are still adjusting to being diminished with the rise of China and the EU as massive trading entities. We might still be able to flex more muscle than others, but we are being caught.
The Brexit will also surely create trade issues as England will have to adhere to EU rules to sell there (over 50% of its trade), but it will have no voice now. The world's focus in Europe will move from London to Berlin in an ironic twist. Americans should beware of this lesson as we are still adjusting to being diminished with the rise of China and the EU as massive trading entities. We might still be able to flex more muscle than others, but we are being caught.
42
We shouldn't be worrying too much about pur influence in the world as long as we have almost none in our own country.
Every time I go shopping in the UK I am harrassed by the inferior metric system.
We have to let in undesirables and as a result where I come from there is a massive amount of crime carried out by foreigners. We don't need foreign criminals. We have our own.
etc.
Every time I go shopping in the UK I am harrassed by the inferior metric system.
We have to let in undesirables and as a result where I come from there is a massive amount of crime carried out by foreigners. We don't need foreign criminals. We have our own.
etc.
2
"An outward-looking, world-involved Great Britain may soon shrink into a Little England."
This is a gross misunderstanding of the arguments.
Brexit supporters see it in just the opposite terms. They think Brexit will mean an outward-looking Britain, world involved, making its own deals with all the world as a full sovereign. They think the EU attachment is Little England thinking, fearfulness talking.
Of course the Remain supporters don't see it that way. They see being a key member of the EU as greatness, in a world where a big voice in the EU is far more important than Britain alone could be.
I'm not agreeing with either view in this comment. I'm saying this article entirely misunderstands one side, while portraying the other side's view as the only view. That really is not helpful.
Each side thinks it is the route to greatness, to an outward looking Britain. Each says the other is small minded and lacking in all that goes into greatness.
Nobody advocates retreat from the world into Little England. They just have very different views on how to do this. One sees the EU as crippling, while the other sees it as the only route to greatness.
Myself, I think Brexit would be a mistake, but not for these reasons at all. I think that Britain has always had reason to fear a Continent united by someone who could be hostile to them. Military balance of power to limit that is no longer possible. Britain is left to use political balance, and that means being on the inside.
This is a gross misunderstanding of the arguments.
Brexit supporters see it in just the opposite terms. They think Brexit will mean an outward-looking Britain, world involved, making its own deals with all the world as a full sovereign. They think the EU attachment is Little England thinking, fearfulness talking.
Of course the Remain supporters don't see it that way. They see being a key member of the EU as greatness, in a world where a big voice in the EU is far more important than Britain alone could be.
I'm not agreeing with either view in this comment. I'm saying this article entirely misunderstands one side, while portraying the other side's view as the only view. That really is not helpful.
Each side thinks it is the route to greatness, to an outward looking Britain. Each says the other is small minded and lacking in all that goes into greatness.
Nobody advocates retreat from the world into Little England. They just have very different views on how to do this. One sees the EU as crippling, while the other sees it as the only route to greatness.
Myself, I think Brexit would be a mistake, but not for these reasons at all. I think that Britain has always had reason to fear a Continent united by someone who could be hostile to them. Military balance of power to limit that is no longer possible. Britain is left to use political balance, and that means being on the inside.
30
I wonder what would happen if the UK voted for Brexit and then while the negotiations were in progress Labour took over government? Labour has always been split on the EU but more in favour of it than against. Perhaps the EU, by allowing a certain amount of fudge to be baked, could create a way for the UK to that it didn't really want to leave the EU after all. The EU has in the past decided on several occasions decided that decisions that went against it weren't really final and given countries another chance to rethink what they had decided. I think that you do have to be a bit off in the head to be for Brexit, even though the EU is far from perfect. Of course if it were me the first thing I would change would be to get rid of the veto.
I'm not sure you fully understand the history and perspective of the Brexiteers - now embodied by their new, and unofficial, leader Boris Johnson. Over many, many years, they and their predecessors waged a (mainly ineffectual) campaign against what they saw as a loss of British sovereignty - a perceived erosion of "Britishness" really, manifested by irritation with trivial rules and regulations emanating from Brussels.
This all changed fairly recently when immigration to the UK from Eastern Europe became a big issue. The issue for the new Brexiteers is really not about Britain's place in the world, but about too many "foreigners" in their midst. The recent revelations about UK immigrant numbers (referenced by Mr. Acheson) effectively pivoted the predicted vote.
It's my view that this is exactly "Little Englander" thinking - xenophobic, reactionary, unrealistic, unstrategic - and ultimately ahistorical. If the Brexiteers carry the day, Scotland will secede, the US will turn its diplomatic and military gaze elsewhere, many British companies will lose markets and Little England will wake up in a few years and wonder where everybody went.
If you want a canary in the coal mine to tell you what's going to happen here in the US if Donald Trump succeeds in bluffing his way to the presidency, then look no further than Brexit.
This all changed fairly recently when immigration to the UK from Eastern Europe became a big issue. The issue for the new Brexiteers is really not about Britain's place in the world, but about too many "foreigners" in their midst. The recent revelations about UK immigrant numbers (referenced by Mr. Acheson) effectively pivoted the predicted vote.
It's my view that this is exactly "Little Englander" thinking - xenophobic, reactionary, unrealistic, unstrategic - and ultimately ahistorical. If the Brexiteers carry the day, Scotland will secede, the US will turn its diplomatic and military gaze elsewhere, many British companies will lose markets and Little England will wake up in a few years and wonder where everybody went.
If you want a canary in the coal mine to tell you what's going to happen here in the US if Donald Trump succeeds in bluffing his way to the presidency, then look no further than Brexit.
17
Is it really pride? Do the English really know where they're heading to? Are they even aware of the nothingness that will become of their new flag? Back in September 2014 many Europeans hoped - and even clung almost with fervent faith - that the Scottish remained within the United Kingdom. One of the reasons was "let's keep the UK strong for a stronger Europe." Now it seems that the English who largely opposed to the Scots leaving them back then utterly lost their minds to siren calls leading to wreckage. It's unbelievable that now all they sense is powerlessness. Let's see what happens when the Great Old United Kingdom becomes a meaningless piece of land with a strong European Scotland in the North, Wales leaving Her majesty and the Ireland island unified. Call me then and tell me how it feels like to beg to re-enter the Big Market.
75
Is Switzerland a meaningless piece of land? Is Norway a meaningless piece of land? Neither of them are in the EU and both are doing quite well.
68
If there were a universal franchise, I would have voted yes on independence for Scotland in the hope and faith that any great change that took place in the UK's structure could be peaceful and constructive. Once independence was rejected I would have voted Labour in the general election, and if I were voting in the Labour election I would have supported Corbyn. If Scotland had become independent I don't know who I would have voted for, either SNP or Labour depending on which was most progressive. If Boris Badhair or Nigel Barrage were anywhere near power I would be heading for the exit.
2
Rubbish. Scotland is not going to secede and become 'European Scotland'.
Nor is the UK going to become a 'meaningless piece of land'.
England will survive just fine if it chooses to leave the EU. They're a tough, resilient lot with a lot of life, years and energy left in them, just like their Queen.
Nor is the UK going to become a 'meaningless piece of land'.
England will survive just fine if it chooses to leave the EU. They're a tough, resilient lot with a lot of life, years and energy left in them, just like their Queen.
3
What I don't read here is how both natives and immigrants will be supported, assisted, educated. It reminds me of the never ending discussions here about school segregation as if you could have integration in schools without jobs, housing, healthcare. Voting to stay in the union seems like having to vote for the lesser of two evils. Well, maybe not this time.
Meanwhile, Mr. Ascherson will never have to live in the same neighborhood as thousands of new immigrants, have his children go to school with more than a carefully selected couple of them or lose a job to one. Talk to us about advantages to the common bloke and not about how much worse it will be for you if we leave.