This atrocity will be this generation's stain on our country's history. It's right up there with the internment of our Japanese citizens during WWII. Dick Cheney and his ilk have done more to destroy the America I believed in than any terrorist ever has.
2
The British newspaper,* The Guardian*, reported:
“CIA medical staff gave specifications on how to torture post-9/11 detainees”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/15/cia-torture-program-sept...
A new low for the medical profession.
And this year’s “Dr. Josef Mengele of the SS, Worst Debasement of the Medical Profession” award goes to the dedicated medical staff of the CIA, with “Best Supporting Actor/Actress” awards going to all us U.S. taxpayers.
“CIA medical staff gave specifications on how to torture post-9/11 detainees”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/15/cia-torture-program-sept...
A new low for the medical profession.
And this year’s “Dr. Josef Mengele of the SS, Worst Debasement of the Medical Profession” award goes to the dedicated medical staff of the CIA, with “Best Supporting Actor/Actress” awards going to all us U.S. taxpayers.
Waterboarding is torture. If you are unsure about that, see the biographical movie "The Railway Man" with Colin Firth. It is a violation of treaties the US has signed to torture prisoners or suspects. It is crime. What is unclear here?
1
I, as a democrat, think that torture is to some extent acceptable. It is a question between one person (ten, twenty people) suffering, and millions of people suffering. If the pain of twenty can stop the death of millions...is that not the course of action to be taken?
I am extremely angry that our representatives, elected and/or paid by us, chose to violate our own laws and traditions as well as international law in this bestial fashion. It is entirely unjustified and immoral. They squandered all the good will and feelings that Americans were the "good guys." Toward the end of WW II, for instance, the Germans sought desperately to surrender to the Anericans, not the Russians. On top of it all, torture doesn't work.
8
This is a clear violation of both codified and customary international law, and no American should accept this. The United States has a longstanding commitment the rule of law, human rights and the many treaties including Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention which renders this conduct unlawful. Collectively, as a nation, we must remember that adherence to international law is a force multiplier that makes the United States an attractive and compelling force. It does more to attract useful information, intelligence and convert adherents to our cause than stooping to the tactics of our adversaries. Let's confront this, and ensure that it never happens again. It is in the national, best interest along with being the right thing to do legally, ethically and morally.
3
Hey, you end up in Guantanamo Bay you deserve everything you get. This is WAR...ANY MEANS Necessary !
1
About 3 decades ago the CIA admitted that its agents would regularly commit 100,000 felonies each year. Such scofflaws can never be trusted to be truthful, ethical or moral. The job requires criminality.
1
There are ways to make people, who don't want to talk, divulge the truth, but they may take a while.
Using those ways in the US runs up against an accused US citizen's right to remain silent.
What puzzles some is how, with no questions asked, we tend to extend rights of US citizens to hostile foreign agents and to generally to just about any non-US citizen without diplomatic immunity.
Must the US be home of the free and the soft-in-the-head to all?
Using those ways in the US runs up against an accused US citizen's right to remain silent.
What puzzles some is how, with no questions asked, we tend to extend rights of US citizens to hostile foreign agents and to generally to just about any non-US citizen without diplomatic immunity.
Must the US be home of the free and the soft-in-the-head to all?
Whoa! Please show me where our Bill of Rights excludes any person in our country from its protection. Should a Canadian who steps across the US border have no rights? Should a US citizen who steps across the Canadian border have no rights?
1
If it is torture when applied TO one of ours, it is torture when applied BY one of ours. There is no "but".
5
The thing about waterboarding is that it will be ineffective with a professional, and there’s no need for it with an amateur. Obviously, there are exceptions.
I find it extremely disturbing that numerous comments regarding CIA torture techniques are being compared to what ISIS, the Taliban, Hitler, Stalin and numerous other leaders of modern times have done. People need to get a grip on the reality and meaning of "war crimes!"
2
Well, ok. Let's consider the meaning of war crimes. Did the fire bombing of Japanese cities in the spring and summer of 1945 constitute war crimes?
Ah, the tough guy mentality of Bush, Cheney, Trump
"Strong leaders" going after the bad guys.
Never mind civil rights, laws, and liberal whining...we need to just get'em
People should look around the world where those leaders exist...
China, N. Korea, Russia
Everyone is so happy and safe there...
"Strong leaders" going after the bad guys.
Never mind civil rights, laws, and liberal whining...we need to just get'em
People should look around the world where those leaders exist...
China, N. Korea, Russia
Everyone is so happy and safe there...
I'm sure all interviewed are outstanding citizens of the world and reach for a more peaceful, inclusive society. They were probably just goat herding when a black opps helicopter snatched them up and flew them to a secret
base where they were systematically tortured because they were Muslim.
Plus, they probably would never lie, Sarcasm over.
base where they were systematically tortured because they were Muslim.
Plus, they probably would never lie, Sarcasm over.
1
All completely beside the point.
2
Appalling violation of human principles and rights. The argument that it was done for the large good holds no water. Info gathered was dubious because the tortured were making up terrorist plots just to relieve themselves of the torture which means that torture backfires and it can send the torturer on a wild goose chase for plots that are fabricated. What a waste of energy and time and how inhumane. Befriending these guys who love to brag, just humoring them and letting them to talk would have achieved the same results. There is nothing like oiling the attention seeker to get info. Water boarding and asking psychologists to endorse this should be a complete no, no, going forth. As for the psychologists involved they are a shame to their profession. They should have their licenses yanked. Rendition was another horror story. That was outsourcing of torture and imprisonment, a la US style. I applaud the ACLU's efforts on behalf of these prisoners. This may be condemned as inappropriate moral equivalency by many Americans, yet I would say we stooped mighty low when we tortured and we became indistinguishable from the so called enemy, working under the delusion that hurting fellow humans beings for their depravity and their potential for massacre, was somehow OK. Our own zest for human rights violations, our own vileness in the name of patriotism disgust me. We set ourselves above international law. Why? We're not that great.
4
Has the ACLU done anything for the survivors of the seventeen sailors?
A silly repartee and ask them and also I don't care if they have or have not. Can't do everything for everybody but they have worked tirelessly for many Americans.
2
Apply this technique to FOK News personnel for 30 minutes and they will confess they are American liaison to Taliban and ISIS. After the session ask these cowards if it was torture or just 'interrogation.'
1
Sickening that our nation, a "superpower", an alleged beacon of freedom, utilizes techniques that are the norm for dictatorships and totalitarian states. We've gone down a very dark and twisted path in the past decade and a half. Any American that supports torture has lost the understanding of what it is to be an American.
1
Sometimes, people might die because we did not torture suspects.
That's why they call us "the good guys".
That's why they call us "the good guys".
No, torturers are never the good guys. Those who commit, observe, or authorize torture are only worthy of our disdain. Furthermore, it has not yielded useful information but has radicalized foreigners that would otherwise be neutral.
7
The reason we don't allow testimony derived from torture in criminal cases is not because we want to be nice to criminals. It's because information derived from torture is notoriously unreliable. People will say anything to get the torture to stop. That's what Zubaydah did. That's what almost all of them probably did. They made up stories that our government wasted time and resources tracking down. Let's not condemn torture because civilized governments shouldn't do (even though that's true), let's condemn torture on a utilitarian basis: it yields unreliable information.
Remember the Pueblo Incident!
Remember the Pueblo Incident!
2
All means necessary to protect citizens.That is what counts.Europe is a mess thanks to pandering to the left.Allow torture of terrorists.The innocents who died in Paris and Brussels would possibly be alive if it were allowed.Even a small chance that it works is worth it.Our children's safety first.
2
Well they lived to tell about it, not so for the 1000's beheaded by ISIS, alcada and the Taliban, not so for the 3000+ victims of the 9/11 attack. Not so for the 100's of passengers on the planes used in the 9/11 attack.
2
and at least they were not shot, shredded by shrapnel or burned to death like so 100s of thousands of Iraqi and Afghanis at the hands of our military.
guess being a torture victim is like winning some kinda lottery...
guess being a torture victim is like winning some kinda lottery...
To stop the torture, prosecute the torturers and their enablers. To stop the illegal military aggressions, do the same. If each President pardons his/her predecessors, take the case to a country that isn’t bound by the criminal US code of censorship.
We mistakenly torture some people and that is a big deal, but when children are killed by accident in drone strikes that is okay. I don't get the asymmetry. I do however, know that I as a taxpayer am tired of paying for 9/11 revenge. I am not getting a return on my investment economically, politically, militarily, or psychologically. Please stop.
1
Torture is inexcusable--by any nation and of any suspect. We know that it provides little, if any, reliable intelligence. Sadly, torture serves mostly as a tool for often misplaced revenge and as a recruitment tool for various terrorists groups. It is an example of self-digestion of the freedoms we claim to be protecting. Inexcusable.
3
Torture at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and other black sites was preceded by a long history of genocide against Native Americans, enslavement of Africans (with accompanying whippings and other tortures), and more recently, overthrowing elected governments in other countries for the purpose of stealing their natural resources. Just one example: overthrowing Mossadegh and installing the Shah, who ruled by torture, so we could have access to cheap oil. All the while we flatter and delude ourselves with the pretense that we are champions of freedom and democracy.
4
This is what you get when you elect a draft dodging man born with a silver spoon in his mouth to the Office of President and Commander in Chief and who surrounds himself with fellow neocon draft dodgers who learned all they know of war and torture from Hollywood movies that glorify it all in the name of entertainment and profit.
This concerned Vietnam Vet, who did not avoid the draft and who served with pride and honor when called rather than hide in the Guard or flee to Canada when his college deferment was trumped by his draft board's shortage of manpower has only one overridng observation of this mess that is tragic history and cannot be undone.
Learn from it for the future.
Donald Trump is a Vietnam Draft Dodger born with a silver spoon in his mouth, who says what the willingly ignorant like to hear and who is surrounding himself with the same or similar neocons, some of whom are the same draft dodgers that brought you Torture Incorporated in the Bush Administration.
Think about that before you vote.
Otherwise this insanity will continue to undermine our democracy, our Constitution and all that we say we stand for. We certainly will never be that light on the hill that Reagan so eloquently described. We will instead be in the gutter calling each other names and finally fracturing our politics beyond repair.
This concerned Vietnam Vet, who did not avoid the draft and who served with pride and honor when called rather than hide in the Guard or flee to Canada when his college deferment was trumped by his draft board's shortage of manpower has only one overridng observation of this mess that is tragic history and cannot be undone.
Learn from it for the future.
Donald Trump is a Vietnam Draft Dodger born with a silver spoon in his mouth, who says what the willingly ignorant like to hear and who is surrounding himself with the same or similar neocons, some of whom are the same draft dodgers that brought you Torture Incorporated in the Bush Administration.
Think about that before you vote.
Otherwise this insanity will continue to undermine our democracy, our Constitution and all that we say we stand for. We certainly will never be that light on the hill that Reagan so eloquently described. We will instead be in the gutter calling each other names and finally fracturing our politics beyond repair.
25
Bruce Olsen ties it all up in a tidy little bundle, doesn't he? Proud and honorable Vietnam vet, no draft dodging coward he, forced to live in a country where draft dodging rich boys get to make havoc and threaten world peace. No doubt, Olsen served in Vietnam next to Bill Clinton, he the peace loving president who bombed a fertilizer factory to distract from the Lewinsky mess, ignored the Rwandan genocide and bombed Belgrade. Yes his wife, the Liberator of Tripoli, will bring sanity and balance back to our world. Rock on, Bruce.
To JoePenny: Bill Clinton was no "rich boy," but George W. Bush was. We all know the tawdry tale of W's entry into the Champaign Unit of the Texas Air National Guard through political pull and family connections and his subsequent shirking and desertion of his military duties. We also know of Cheney's "other priorities" during the Viet Nam war. Olsen was definitely not in a fox hole with W, unless they had fox holes in the beach volleyball courts of the sports bars in Alabama while W was there "serving his country."
3
Actually EGS, I was not in a foxhole, I was on top of a mountain controlling air strikes and refueling tanker hookups. The rockets that hit us were not while we were on top fighting the war but when we at the bottom of the hill playing volleyball and enjoying the sports bars called the O club and NCO club. I kissed the ground when I stepped off the plane coming home. I got drafted kicking and screaming. I came home a better person.
Fortunately President Obama has just been droning them to death for the last seven years so we won’t have to deal with Gitmo much longer.
2
Are you is surprised that AmeriKa is considered the leading terrorist nation in the world. I'm not.
2
When you dehumanize others, you dehumanize yourself. It's like equal and opposite forces.
Our government is far to eager to dehumanize everyone.
Our government is far to eager to dehumanize everyone.
4
The most important issue is the safety and security of the nation. Sometimes we ask our military and intelligence professionals to do unpleasant things in order to protect us. They should not be demonized for doing our bidding. We should ignore the voices of those who have done nothing to protect our country.
1
"...once used to detain and question..."
That's telling it like it is, Times.
(Maybe if the question were an occupation it would at least be in quotes.)
That's telling it like it is, Times.
(Maybe if the question were an occupation it would at least be in quotes.)
Post Script: John Yoo and other attorneys in the U.S. Department of Justice who gave illegal cover for the Bush/Cheney administration to torture in our name were neither prosecuted nor subjected to a disbarment proceeding by their state bar. The injustice of America's illegal torture program remains un-addressed and that failure moves our nation further away from traditional bedrock American values: fairness, the rule of law, due process of law and justice for all.
8
Fair enough, we can stop with the water boarding. How about we treat them with the same respect they show their women? Harsh enough?
4
I have no sympathy for terrorists who kill innocent Americans...
2
That "torture" sounds like a walk in the park compared to being burned alive or beheaded which would have been the case if the roles were reversed.
2
I heard on the news last night that the psychologists who decided whether there needed to be more torture got $1800 every time they ordered a torture session.
2
And we wonder where the cruelty and violence in our culture comes from?
It comes from the source--the U.S. Government.
It comes from the source--the U.S. Government.
8
Completely one sided analysis and yes anyone who is in Guantanamo has credibility issues but the times and it's readers believe every last word.
2
The facts speak for themselves. You may choose to interpret the facts differently, but you can't change the facts because you don't like them.
1
CIA EXPERTS And others who debrief suspects are regularly interviewed in the media, where a small but significant number forthrightly say that they never use torture and more reliable information and more cooperation than thoose who torture. What else is there to say?
1
Very unwise move. CIA has harmed the interests of US and West for ever.
Daesh will have a field day aping CIA methods on Western hostages. They already dresses them in bright yellow a la Guantanamo, and make them undergo what they perceive as done to Islamists there and in Abu Gharaib.
It also becomes difficult for us to grab the moral ground.
I scratch my head in bewilderment. How short-sighted of CIA. What were they thinking of?
Daesh will have a field day aping CIA methods on Western hostages. They already dresses them in bright yellow a la Guantanamo, and make them undergo what they perceive as done to Islamists there and in Abu Gharaib.
It also becomes difficult for us to grab the moral ground.
I scratch my head in bewilderment. How short-sighted of CIA. What were they thinking of?
2
Arguing the morality of torture is the same as arguing the morality of war.
If forced to choose, most people would prefer to be waterboarded rather than killed.
If an interrogation is applied correctly to extract information useful to prevent murder of innocents, go for it, those terrorism suspects weren't picked by random.
If forced to choose, most people would prefer to be waterboarded rather than killed.
If an interrogation is applied correctly to extract information useful to prevent murder of innocents, go for it, those terrorism suspects weren't picked by random.
3
If it is so time-critical that information be extracted by torture, the people involved should be willing to accept the risk of prosecution should they be wrong. If you aren't willing to accept those odds, you should not be willing to psychologically damage someone for life based on a hunch.
When are we going to hold these criminals to account?
Of all the disappointments Obama has delivered us his failure to root out and prosecute every single person involved in this is the biggest. Yes I mean W, Cheney and on down to the privates who ran the prisons. Every single person had to know what they were doing was wrong that is why they remain silent about what they did.
This failure to stand up for the humanity of the US will be the thing that wakes him with shame in the future. I think it will haunt him as he has left an indelible stain on our national honor by not doing the right thing just to avoid the political fight involved. The fruits of cowardice are bitter.
Of all the disappointments Obama has delivered us his failure to root out and prosecute every single person involved in this is the biggest. Yes I mean W, Cheney and on down to the privates who ran the prisons. Every single person had to know what they were doing was wrong that is why they remain silent about what they did.
This failure to stand up for the humanity of the US will be the thing that wakes him with shame in the future. I think it will haunt him as he has left an indelible stain on our national honor by not doing the right thing just to avoid the political fight involved. The fruits of cowardice are bitter.
1
For those who think a little waterboarding is torture and is thus impermissible in any circumstances, I have a question for you.
What do you think about our firebombing of entire German and Japanese cities, and what do you think of our nuking 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
We are still extraditing Nazis to Germany to trial. I assume you also support jailing American soldiers and politicians for their WWII war crimes.
Or maybe not? After all, war is dirty. And it's winner's justice.
Let's win first. Is that ok with you all?
What do you think about our firebombing of entire German and Japanese cities, and what do you think of our nuking 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
We are still extraditing Nazis to Germany to trial. I assume you also support jailing American soldiers and politicians for their WWII war crimes.
Or maybe not? After all, war is dirty. And it's winner's justice.
Let's win first. Is that ok with you all?
2
No.
Your false equivalence between aerial bombardment in a declared war and these actions astounds.
Giving up morals, principles and freedoms in the pursuit of victory is not a win.
If in pursuit of victory, we trash our constitution at home and our reputation abroad, and sink to excuses, apologies, acceptance, acquiescence and endorsement of or for committing such acts, we have not only ceded the moral high ground, but we have begun the descent by degrees into becoming that against which this country has long fought.
Your false equivalence between aerial bombardment in a declared war and these actions astounds.
Giving up morals, principles and freedoms in the pursuit of victory is not a win.
If in pursuit of victory, we trash our constitution at home and our reputation abroad, and sink to excuses, apologies, acceptance, acquiescence and endorsement of or for committing such acts, we have not only ceded the moral high ground, but we have begun the descent by degrees into becoming that against which this country has long fought.
2
Not, sadly, our finest hour. When government sanctions revenge, no one emerges physically and morally unscathed.
3
Is this my country? Is my country one in which persons can be summarily rounded up, taken to an offshore site, denied access to legal counsel or a hearing or an arraignment, and be held for months while being submitted to horrendous tortures? These people had no recourse, no abililty to communicate with anyone other than their kidnappers (yes, that is an appropriate word), meanwhile our government allowed this to go on with full knowlege of the tactics involved. I certainly believe criminals should be detained - but with due process. I also believe that "persons of interest" should be under surveillance, but in absence of proof they should not be detained - and certainly not shipped offshore fare from family and dnied legal counsel.
I am one American who believes that human rights apply to all people, not just citizens of the United States. Yet in the business of Gitmo, American citizens were among those detained and tortured with no respect for their rights as citizens.
Is this America or is it another country? Perhaps a "radical Muslim extremist" one? God help America. God help us all!
I am one American who believes that human rights apply to all people, not just citizens of the United States. Yet in the business of Gitmo, American citizens were among those detained and tortured with no respect for their rights as citizens.
Is this America or is it another country? Perhaps a "radical Muslim extremist" one? God help America. God help us all!
20
Pardon my jaded outlook, but as I see it, more disclosures, and nothing will happen. It appears we have a treaty obligation to prosecute those who perpetrated water boarding. Not torture? Justify the execution of the Japanese perpetrators of the same act at the end of WWII. Nothing will happen.
The 18 century meaning "arms" of a single shot musket and bayonet has morphed into a rapid fire weapon with the consequences we are grieving over. Of course high capacity magazines and rapid fire on the firing range means plenty of ammunition will be expended, which is not exactly cheap. Ah, profits; nothing will happen.
A report was published on the "irregularities" in Florida in the 2000 election. A among other irregularities, there were 183,000 "spoiled ballots" a nice euphemism for 183,000 people denied the vote. Mostly, these came from the voting machines in Democratic leaning districts. Nothing happened. However we are still paying dearly.
And the beat goes on.
Wonder why 38% of the populace bothered to vote in the last 2014?
The 18 century meaning "arms" of a single shot musket and bayonet has morphed into a rapid fire weapon with the consequences we are grieving over. Of course high capacity magazines and rapid fire on the firing range means plenty of ammunition will be expended, which is not exactly cheap. Ah, profits; nothing will happen.
A report was published on the "irregularities" in Florida in the 2000 election. A among other irregularities, there were 183,000 "spoiled ballots" a nice euphemism for 183,000 people denied the vote. Mostly, these came from the voting machines in Democratic leaning districts. Nothing happened. However we are still paying dearly.
And the beat goes on.
Wonder why 38% of the populace bothered to vote in the last 2014?
3
One reason I voted so enthusiastically for Bernie Sanders is that he had the moral fiber, and guts, to vote against the Iraq War, and to call for a more measured, and reasoned, foreign policy for our country.
3
from the article: "Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the accused architect of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks..“This is, you see, I have been tortured by C.I.A.,” Mr. Mohammed said".
I'd say, probably not enough.
I'd say, probably not enough.
2
Finally, we now know what was rumored. This is the world of Dangerous Donald Trump. I say "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I'd like to round up the Donald, Dicky Cheney, the Shrub, Donnie Rumsfeld, and all the others for a couple of days of "sensitivity training." Let's do unto them what they would do unto others.
3
We learned in Vietnam, by trying it, that torture does not obtain reliable information, and it is not especially fast either.
Far more productive was language skill, sympathy, and a bit of "good cop/bad cop." It sold hope, and surprise that fears were exaggerated. Torture is the very opposite of what we found worked best.
Far more productive was language skill, sympathy, and a bit of "good cop/bad cop." It sold hope, and surprise that fears were exaggerated. Torture is the very opposite of what we found worked best.
9
The torture was an act of vengeance as was the war in Iraq. And now there is ISIS who cheers mass murderers on.
8
If provocative rhetoric is any indicator, the atrocities of Republican Donald Trump would surpass those of the traitorous Republican war criminals Bush and Cheney within weeks.
8
If some other country had done this, there would be war crime trials in The Hague. This is despicable and indefensible. Of course torture victims start making up fake plots. It's because they're being tortured.
I am not surprised in the least that Donald Trump wants to bring back war crimes as U.S. policy. Can someone just wake me up when this election is over, and if Trump wins, induce a coma?
I am not surprised in the least that Donald Trump wants to bring back war crimes as U.S. policy. Can someone just wake me up when this election is over, and if Trump wins, induce a coma?
9
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
8
And how much less shall it profit him should he lose his soul for baubles or naught?
1
We can NEVER talk about human rights when we have violated so many of them. The worst of the worst persons is entitled to be heard before a court. I was utterly disgusted after reading one of the documents where they talk about... if the subject dies... then what to do with him, and how the person must be kept isolated and incommunicado the rest of their natural life... It seemed like I was reading something from a Frankenstein play or something.
Each and everyone responsible for this behavior must be prosecuted from top to bottom. We have lost all moral ground.
Each and everyone responsible for this behavior must be prosecuted from top to bottom. We have lost all moral ground.
8
American officials seem to feel that "we" can act without consequence around the world because we have the might. So we fail to prosecute our war criminals at the highest levels (starting with our presidents and vice presidents). Even past Secretaries of State, going back to the Vietnam War, walk free.
Yet we use our military might around the world, in the name of "democracy."
Yet we use our military might around the world, in the name of "democracy."
10
Insert the names of "American Officials" and you have something there. As it is it is an ambiguous overly generalized attack on all Americans.
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster."
11
Cheney was already a monster. We empowered him and his friends like him.
Their appeal was to vengeance and ignorance of what really works.
Their appeal was to vengeance and ignorance of what really works.
7
The "first-hand testimony" of the detainees is harrowing. Indeed, torture shouldn't have a place in our civilised world. Unfortunately it is still widely used by state and non-state actors across the globe. While CIA officers seek to glean information from terror suspects, thuggish regimes and militant groups engage in torture and abuse for the genuine pleasure of being sadistic, and instilling fear.
The CIA torture programme is highly controversial and its brutality has been condemned world wide when it was made public in December 2014. While China, Russia and other countries with poor human rights records maintain that the US has no "moral right" to criticise their human rights violation, they don't have a strong civil society, with institutions like the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), that keep an eye on government policies. The CIA torture programme has damaged America's standing, but the current Administration distances itself from its predecessor's practice, and it has the "moral right" to condemn other countries. The question is will they ever clean up their own backyards?
The CIA torture programme is highly controversial and its brutality has been condemned world wide when it was made public in December 2014. While China, Russia and other countries with poor human rights records maintain that the US has no "moral right" to criticise their human rights violation, they don't have a strong civil society, with institutions like the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), that keep an eye on government policies. The CIA torture programme has damaged America's standing, but the current Administration distances itself from its predecessor's practice, and it has the "moral right" to condemn other countries. The question is will they ever clean up their own backyards?
9
switzerland just finished th gotthard base tunnel 6000 feet under th alps, th longest tunnel in th world, cost $ 10 bill
trains will travel through it at 150 mph, 300 trains per day
thats what switzerland does w their money
america spends their treasure on war and torture
trains will travel through it at 150 mph, 300 trains per day
thats what switzerland does w their money
america spends their treasure on war and torture
27
Don't forget tax breaks and subsidies for the corporate billionaire "job creators" who create no jobs...
5
No we spend our money on subsiding countries around the world by providing their defense, giving them favorable trade deals and protecting their citizens. Time to bring those dollars back to the citizens of the USA.
3
@1420.405751786 MHz,
If only America could be like Switzerland. A small country with a population less then NYC that somehow remained neutral during WWII. A country that no other country has ever called upon for help or protection in a violent crisis. A country whose main business has been handling and hiding the money of the worlds wealthy. We aren't Switzerland, never have been, and never will be! If only our country could be like the idyllic land of the Hobbit! Now back to reality!!
If only America could be like Switzerland. A small country with a population less then NYC that somehow remained neutral during WWII. A country that no other country has ever called upon for help or protection in a violent crisis. A country whose main business has been handling and hiding the money of the worlds wealthy. We aren't Switzerland, never have been, and never will be! If only our country could be like the idyllic land of the Hobbit! Now back to reality!!
1
This is utterly sickening.
The failure to prosecute every culpable person is indefensible — from those who gave the orders or carried them out to the psychologists and medical personnel who assisted. The only question is sentence length, but no one involved should avoid criminal liability. In fact, our conspiracy laws may even apply, making every participant liable for the acts of all others.
However one views it, these people were out of control and must be held accountable, if justice is to have any meaning, and if we are to make certain no rogue villains ever again dare commit such horrors, in our name.
Put differently, among the more atrocious things Donald Trump says is that he would gladly order these same criminal acts, if elected President. By failing to prosecute, President Obama shows himself hardly better than Trump here. Is this the legacy he wants?
We are better than this — let us demonstrate so by bringing to justice everyone responsible.
@ricfouad
The failure to prosecute every culpable person is indefensible — from those who gave the orders or carried them out to the psychologists and medical personnel who assisted. The only question is sentence length, but no one involved should avoid criminal liability. In fact, our conspiracy laws may even apply, making every participant liable for the acts of all others.
However one views it, these people were out of control and must be held accountable, if justice is to have any meaning, and if we are to make certain no rogue villains ever again dare commit such horrors, in our name.
Put differently, among the more atrocious things Donald Trump says is that he would gladly order these same criminal acts, if elected President. By failing to prosecute, President Obama shows himself hardly better than Trump here. Is this the legacy he wants?
We are better than this — let us demonstrate so by bringing to justice everyone responsible.
@ricfouad
42
All of it was explicitly illegal by US law when W took office.
3
We are bumbling idiots. Until we hold our government accountable, we've learned nothing. The crime that we are all guilty of is the failure to listen, understand and hold anyone accountable for the atrocities committed on our behalf. This the same moral laziness and narcissism that compel us to glorify the actions of our forefathers that annihilated the aboriginal Americans. Is it still taught in our schools that this was our manifest destiny? Our god given right? To exterminate another race of human beings. Lets start there.
Because this is how we still behave. If this torture did not fit the narrative of those that ordered it, the torture went on. We knew that it was Saudis that attacked us on 9/11. Not Iraqis. We knew that. Our response in the "Spirit of 9/12" that Hillary spoke so glowingly of the other day was not to come together to achieve anything good. It was to use that attack as an excuse in the most cynical way, to invade nations, wreak havoc and destroy countless innocent lives. Kill kill kill. That'll teach 'em.
Because this is how we still behave. If this torture did not fit the narrative of those that ordered it, the torture went on. We knew that it was Saudis that attacked us on 9/11. Not Iraqis. We knew that. Our response in the "Spirit of 9/12" that Hillary spoke so glowingly of the other day was not to come together to achieve anything good. It was to use that attack as an excuse in the most cynical way, to invade nations, wreak havoc and destroy countless innocent lives. Kill kill kill. That'll teach 'em.
21
The pathetic "choice" between Clinton and Trump is yet another indicator that America is not headed for good times...
8
It is a vicious cycle. We terrorize them with the biggest military machine in history, so they shoot a bunch of people in a club. Now we have an excuse to terrorize more people.
1
When the Bush43 team, led by Veep Dick Cheney, made the decision to use torture in the pursuit of terrorists, before CIA chief George Tenet told his leader he would do whatever it took to get the torture program started, there was UC Berkeley/Hastings School of Law professor, John Yoo who wrote the argument for torture, "tortured logic," if you will, for the Bush/Cheney cabal.
When I first read of Yoo's involvement in authorizing torture by the Bush43 team, I wondered, "How could a school of unabashed progressive thinking have such a lawyer on its faculty? I wrote to the chancellor; I wrote to the Board of Regents of the University of California. Not one response which, I suppose, was the "response" of ignoring my inquiries.
To any history buff of war, John Yoo was repeating the sins of the Nazis during the 1930s runup to all-out war and the resulting holocaust. Of course, Hitler and his minions never bothered with the rule of law. They made it up to suit their hideous plans of domination, subjugation, terror and racial purity.
The use of torture by American operatives from the CIA, and approved by the gaggle of war criminals pacing about the White House in secret meetings, shows us how inspirational the Inquisition, and the Nazis, must have seemed to this cabal.
Though indictments (against Cheney, Rumsfeld, Tenet and Yoo, and others) for war crimes are highly unlikely, at least the spotlight of truth may provide some sort of cleansing for the American psychy.
When I first read of Yoo's involvement in authorizing torture by the Bush43 team, I wondered, "How could a school of unabashed progressive thinking have such a lawyer on its faculty? I wrote to the chancellor; I wrote to the Board of Regents of the University of California. Not one response which, I suppose, was the "response" of ignoring my inquiries.
To any history buff of war, John Yoo was repeating the sins of the Nazis during the 1930s runup to all-out war and the resulting holocaust. Of course, Hitler and his minions never bothered with the rule of law. They made it up to suit their hideous plans of domination, subjugation, terror and racial purity.
The use of torture by American operatives from the CIA, and approved by the gaggle of war criminals pacing about the White House in secret meetings, shows us how inspirational the Inquisition, and the Nazis, must have seemed to this cabal.
Though indictments (against Cheney, Rumsfeld, Tenet and Yoo, and others) for war crimes are highly unlikely, at least the spotlight of truth may provide some sort of cleansing for the American psychy.
20
According to "Nazi Interrogator," a book by the Luftwaffe officer who most excelled at getting information from captured allied aviators, he had to operate under rules: physical torture and women, no, alcohol and deceit, yes as methods. His advantage, he said, was that he genuinely liked British and Americans, so his method was to apply friendliness and drinks, then "con" a targeted path of good natured conversation. According to that book, after the war he lived in North Hollywood and his friends included former U.S. flyers whom he had interrogated. I have not read accounts of nazi interrogation torture, although a relative picked up for his role in the Polish underground during WW II who survived Auschwitz incarceration reported that the gestapo had included putting water up his nose as part of its interrogation of him.
The billionaires are also now in control of many institutions of "higher learning." They started with the economics departments.
So what's new? We the people have known about the torture of POWs ever since Bush and Cheney invaded Iraq and started many new prisons, and torturers. Nothing was ever done about it. And the whole world now knows that the U.S. does not care to and will not to abide by the Geneva Conventions which barred torture of POWs. Just imagine how many future American POWs they have put at risk of torture, and even beheading, as was done by ISIS in the past. Would you want a descendant of yours to become a POW at some future time? Not me! I spent 20 years in the military and I know how respected was the "no-torture" concept for a very long time. Not any more...........
19
Love the screen name.
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
1
america sold its soul
were there a hell, youd be first in line, and for th deepest pit
were there a hell, youd be first in line, and for th deepest pit
3
No America did not. The GOP sold themselves to foreigners in the 70's and then abused whatever authority they could get via elections to do as they pleased.
The GOP with the help of those foreigners have systematically undermined and exploited our system to rig it so that they can abuse the authority one is granted when elected to do as they please and the people have little recourse except the next rigged election. So no recourse at all.
The GOP with the help of those foreigners have systematically undermined and exploited our system to rig it so that they can abuse the authority one is granted when elected to do as they please and the people have little recourse except the next rigged election. So no recourse at all.
I'm having a great deal of trouble sympathizing with these people after large groups of Christians were taken to a beach and their heads cut off. When women that wouldn't serve as whores were put in a cage and set on fire and the numerous atrocities associated with these people. One question "Are they still alive?.
1
jacrane, It's not about them at this point -- it's about us. It's about he war crimes that have been committed in our name with our tax dollars. It's about whether we elect President Trump who is going to commit war crimes like this again.
We all think we're better than the terrorists. I think that. I know that. And then I read this article about these horrible things done in the name of allegedly protecting me. No, I don't have sympathy for the people who have done the things you describe. But I do feel shame for the war crimes my country has committed. Shouldn't I?
We all think we're better than the terrorists. I think that. I know that. And then I read this article about these horrible things done in the name of allegedly protecting me. No, I don't have sympathy for the people who have done the things you describe. But I do feel shame for the war crimes my country has committed. Shouldn't I?
1
When I think of what our government has done in our name it sickens me & makes me ashamed for our country.
George Washington rejected the torture of British troops despite the British were actively torturing our troops held in ships in New York Harbor. We were among the authors and signatories of the various conventions that created the modern international laws covering the treatment of Prisoners of War and defining war crimes. The US sent a sitting Supreme Court Associate Justice to the Tribunal seated at Nuremberg that tried some of the Nazi War Criminals. Other post World War II Tribunals executed Axis officers for torture to include the waterboarding of American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines.
When I entered the US Army in 1982 and at various schools I attended we were taught of the Laws of Land Warfare, of our tradition to not torture, of the promise that if we tortured people we could be tried as war criminals by International Tribunal or by a Court Martial of the United States. We were also taught that the fact that the US was known not to torture made opponents more likely to surrender rather than fight to the death and that our troops held would be better treated than would those of nations who were known to torture.
All of that went away with the George W Bush Administration. Even more galling is that the enablers mostly were people who never served and will never be brought to account.
George Washington rejected the torture of British troops despite the British were actively torturing our troops held in ships in New York Harbor. We were among the authors and signatories of the various conventions that created the modern international laws covering the treatment of Prisoners of War and defining war crimes. The US sent a sitting Supreme Court Associate Justice to the Tribunal seated at Nuremberg that tried some of the Nazi War Criminals. Other post World War II Tribunals executed Axis officers for torture to include the waterboarding of American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines.
When I entered the US Army in 1982 and at various schools I attended we were taught of the Laws of Land Warfare, of our tradition to not torture, of the promise that if we tortured people we could be tried as war criminals by International Tribunal or by a Court Martial of the United States. We were also taught that the fact that the US was known not to torture made opponents more likely to surrender rather than fight to the death and that our troops held would be better treated than would those of nations who were known to torture.
All of that went away with the George W Bush Administration. Even more galling is that the enablers mostly were people who never served and will never be brought to account.
18
"The ends justify the means" is a very slippery and dangerous slope of rationalization, and as amply noted elsewhere the "ends" are not of any higher value than info obtained through "unenhanced" means. We justifiably executed those who waterboarded in WW2. Now we're in the same club, and every citizen and military personnel bears the stain of this government-sanctioned amorality. JFK recognized this amoral lawlessless of the CIA, and attempted to disengage from theatres of their provocation, along with taking steps to bring the agency under government control. Now with the benefit of FOIA-disclosed info decades later, there is no longer credible doubt of the CIA prime role in the assassination, and that same chain of meat-head, reckless, "we-know-best, you-pathetic-unwashed-masses" ungoverned hubris persists to this day. Does the gov't direct the sprawling intelligence community or is it vice versa?
4
It is refreshing that the NYTimes has finally learned to use the T-word. I remember years and years when they resolutely refused to state torture as torture, despite a century of law and treaties, instead acting as stenographers for the lies of the Bush-Cheney administration.
At the same time, it makes President Obama's willingness to cover this up, an even deeper legal and moral failure. If, as President, you are afraid to investigate our war crimes, what is the point of being President?
At the same time, it makes President Obama's willingness to cover this up, an even deeper legal and moral failure. If, as President, you are afraid to investigate our war crimes, what is the point of being President?
4
Another nail in the US coffin nailed in by the GOP.
It's not enough to destroy our economy [again], now they're rationalizing of torture accelerates our nations descent.
Is there any international problem that the GOP offers a solution other than war and/or torture?
It's not enough to destroy our economy [again], now they're rationalizing of torture accelerates our nations descent.
Is there any international problem that the GOP offers a solution other than war and/or torture?
2
The government of the United States was hardly pristine and unsullied in the matter of torture before the G.W. Bush administration.
For most of the 20th-century, our country quietly supported, financed and sold weapons to brutal dictators in Central and South America.
The U.S. even trained military "leaders" at The School of the Americas in Georgia who then returned to their native countries and perpetrated vicious campaigns of torture and violence against their own people. On behalf of U.S. corporations and the rich and powerful families who, in effect, "owned" places like El Salvador, these men engaged in horrifying torture and murder.
Example: On Dec. 11, 1981, SOA graduates led a battalion that massacred more than 800 women, children and men in a Salvadoran village, an event most Americans have never heard of.
In his book, The Massacre at El Mozote, journalist Mark Danner reconstructed the massacre. He reported that girls as young as 10 were raped by soldiers who also killed children at first by slitting their throats, then by hanging them from trees, with one child as young as two years old. After killing the entire population , the soldiers set fire to the buildings.
America has a terrible secret history of either directly perpetrating or actively supporting torture and murder around the planet. Our victims in every nation in this hemisphere know what our country really is: perhaps the greatest sponsor of state terrorism in the history of the world.
For most of the 20th-century, our country quietly supported, financed and sold weapons to brutal dictators in Central and South America.
The U.S. even trained military "leaders" at The School of the Americas in Georgia who then returned to their native countries and perpetrated vicious campaigns of torture and violence against their own people. On behalf of U.S. corporations and the rich and powerful families who, in effect, "owned" places like El Salvador, these men engaged in horrifying torture and murder.
Example: On Dec. 11, 1981, SOA graduates led a battalion that massacred more than 800 women, children and men in a Salvadoran village, an event most Americans have never heard of.
In his book, The Massacre at El Mozote, journalist Mark Danner reconstructed the massacre. He reported that girls as young as 10 were raped by soldiers who also killed children at first by slitting their throats, then by hanging them from trees, with one child as young as two years old. After killing the entire population , the soldiers set fire to the buildings.
America has a terrible secret history of either directly perpetrating or actively supporting torture and murder around the planet. Our victims in every nation in this hemisphere know what our country really is: perhaps the greatest sponsor of state terrorism in the history of the world.
6
Get off the high ground, were fighting a culture that harbors and encourages belittlement of their women, beating them, punishing them and you have the audacity to consider this culture of human beings something we need to protect because they label their sickness a religion or as if they were American citizens? Seriously? Making a better world for our children sometime employs that you must do the undesirable to protect them, as opposed to being equal by beheading. Beatings, burying women in the sand and stoning them to death for said "infidelity" only requires two corroborating MEN to testify to. Pouring a little water up their nose is nothing and is fine. Get over it, just ask Daniel Berg, it's not equal.
2
"get off the high ground"
that says it all. once we lose the high ground, we have nothing. the very idea of civilization is about holding the high ground.
I will not get off the high ground.
that says it all. once we lose the high ground, we have nothing. the very idea of civilization is about holding the high ground.
I will not get off the high ground.
3
US = a medieval and uncivilized country, previously governed by war criminals (Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld). Disgusting.
1
is this th exceptional part ?
2
Oh, we're exceptional, all right.
4
To all those who are writing and recommending comments that this makes our human right's records no better than China's or Iran's or that we are no better than the terrorists, consider that reading and writing comments freely and without fear proves that the comments are hyperbolic.
1
Except Edward Snowden revealed that the NSA was (and probably is) secretly recording and storing every citizen's comments in perpetuity.
For what good purpose?
For what good purpose?
Free speech isn't the first thing to disappear under totalitarianism. But when it does, then you can be sure that you live in a security state.
1
Military Industrial Complex, meet Fear Industrial Complex.
4
Dick Chaney would likely say: "Joe Stalin never had these problems!"
4
CIA director John Brennan is currently testifying before the Senate that ISIS and it's reach is growing throughout the world and all the NYT can report on is torture of the poor bad guys. What are they afraid of, that it might make Obama look bad and that he has done nothing to stop them?
3
"all the NYT can report on is torture of the poor bad guys"
We all know about that other stuff too, because the NYT and other do report on it too.
You just don't want anyone to mention crimes by really evil men on our side. That undermines us, it does not help us. It is part of why we are losing. Your complaint is a loser's complaint, as Trump would put it.
We all know about that other stuff too, because the NYT and other do report on it too.
You just don't want anyone to mention crimes by really evil men on our side. That undermines us, it does not help us. It is part of why we are losing. Your complaint is a loser's complaint, as Trump would put it.
1
First of all, many of the people undergoing "enhanced interrogation" were not the 'bad guys.'
Second, experienced and successful interrogators have long said that torture is NOT the most effective method of getting actual useful information. The article mentions that one innocent man made up all kinds of information in an effort to stop the torture, which is very common. Much more effective methods of questioning are known--which do not involve torture but frequently do involve kindness, getting the person to trust the questioner and getting them talking. Of course, that may not seems as satisfying to some as contemplating a 'bad guy' writhing in pain, but it might actually be productive.
Second, experienced and successful interrogators have long said that torture is NOT the most effective method of getting actual useful information. The article mentions that one innocent man made up all kinds of information in an effort to stop the torture, which is very common. Much more effective methods of questioning are known--which do not involve torture but frequently do involve kindness, getting the person to trust the questioner and getting them talking. Of course, that may not seems as satisfying to some as contemplating a 'bad guy' writhing in pain, but it might actually be productive.
2
For all that we have done since 9/11, we're not winning. It's been 15 years. The terrorists aren't winning but we aren't either. Many civilians have been killed in The Middle East, and our government refers to it as "collateral damage". Not to mention our military men and women who have lost their lives and those who have been injured, some very badly injured.
There has to be a different way, or this is going to go on forever. (AA's Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results."
Once in a while I come across an article written by a sane person, in which he writes: Why don't we ask them what they want? The first answer may be "The annihilation of The US!!!" But, as time goes by, we may find out that they have some valid needs and wants and are willing to talk about them.
In the meantime, our government is taking away more and more of our freedoms under the guise of 'protection' and 'security'. Think about all we have lost since 9/11.
There has to be a different way, or this is going to go on forever. (AA's Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results."
Once in a while I come across an article written by a sane person, in which he writes: Why don't we ask them what they want? The first answer may be "The annihilation of The US!!!" But, as time goes by, we may find out that they have some valid needs and wants and are willing to talk about them.
In the meantime, our government is taking away more and more of our freedoms under the guise of 'protection' and 'security'. Think about all we have lost since 9/11.
6
The CIA is a private agency that works like Blackwater for protection of corporate interests. They operate in violation of national and international laws, including torture cells. For example, if a leader in a foreign country is using oil profits to benefit the working people by improving conditions, the CIA will immediately sound the alarms, drive up opposition to that leader, and quickly arrange a coup. Those opposed to the replacement dictator of the CIA's choice will be tortured or killed. Think San Salvador in 1970s. The CIA's role is to serve the corporate billionaires. What they despise most, under the elitists' orders, is when elected leaders use profits-taxes to improve conditions for the people. Recently, Hillary arranged a coup with the CIA to overthrow the Democratically elected leader in Honduras, Manuel Zelaya, for the same reasons I described. This is why I'll write Bernie Sanders' name for president because she is a NeoCon (neo-conservative) no different from G.W. Bush. Both Obama and Hillary have worked to overthrow social liberal democratic leaders in Latin America that were making progress on improving conditions for the working poor. It wasn't easy after the US kept Latin America under the control of CIA dictatorships for more than 30 years, they were just starting to get ahead until Obama & Hillary called in the CIA to overthrow the liberal leaders. Trump's statements on torture are abominable, but Hillary is in some ways worse.
8
It's not a "private agency," although it may be run as if it is. We are paying for their operations and their salaries, even though these high priests in the cult of national security cannot trust us with the knowledge of what they are perpetrating in our names.
1
This country has a dark history beginning with slavery, continuing with genocide of Native Americans and now this. And nobody gets punished.
8
Admission of these crimes serves a greater purpose than the punishment of the perpetrators. Acknowledge the fact that these tactics besides diminishing us in our own esteem and our reputation around the world, did not work. It cost us our treasure our time and worst of all our souls following make it stop made up stories.
1
Fine then we can just use publication of crimes as a deterrent to crime. If you can torture and only get called out publicly and there are no other consequences then why not murder or armed robbery? Torture being fare more a human rights crime than the others.
Am I supposed to show compassion for any of these animals who deliberately killed or were involved in the killing of thousands of Americans and numerous others? You indicate that the CIA was mistaken as to Abu Zubaydah being a top AQ official, but I can assure you he wasn't an innocent bystander. Perhaps the CIA was overzealous, but if one American's life was saved by the "torture", so be it. We can use the analogy that on 9/10/01, the CIA had in it's custody someone who had intimate knowledge of a pending terrorist act on US soil. What should they do?
3
How about compassion for the innocents? Some of them were, including some we tortured to death.
How about behaving like Americans ought to, just because we are Americans and no monsters like ISIS? Except maybe a few of us are.
How about behaving like Americans ought to, just because we are Americans and no monsters like ISIS? Except maybe a few of us are.
1
Beginning with the U.S. (CIA) and U.K. (BP) joint involvement in the 1953 Iranian coup d'etat over oil, the United States has become a global menace.
Stupid, unending wars!
Stupid, unending wars!
2
Everyone involved, including the Bush AND Obama administration should be publicly tried, and convicted to serve as an example to future administrations that Americans DO NOT CONDONE TORTURE.
2
"a creative but circular justification" - Dr. Evil
First of all, thanks for the report. We now know more about war-crimes and criminal acts perpetrated at taxpayers's expense and at the expense of American democracy. Those perpetrators, should we say war criminals, not only sacrificed American values or democratic norms, they also undermined the civilization, just as the terrorists did. You don't level yourself with devils to be even with them, you stand tall and live better, that's called revenge. What the CIA and their political masters did was a disgrace--to America, to the civilization.
2
That was a very evocative sob story about one (maybe two) individuals.
Now can we get a story about the hundreds of other detainees, and how they killed and tortured hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of civilians?
Or maybe it is the Times' position that we put these people (90% al-Qaeda or Taliban) in special detention for fun. And why Obama keeps dozens of them imprisoned if they are so angelic.
Now can we get a story about the hundreds of other detainees, and how they killed and tortured hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of civilians?
Or maybe it is the Times' position that we put these people (90% al-Qaeda or Taliban) in special detention for fun. And why Obama keeps dozens of them imprisoned if they are so angelic.
2
We all put on a fake cloak of civility when in fact we ourselves are no better than the "cruel" islamists. Humans are worse than animals because animals do not fall to this level
1
Protect the American people at all costs.
1
The best way to protect the American people is to not indiscriminately torture foreign nationals. As a member of the electorate announcing your support for torture, you are personally responsible for any blowback that may occur. You have made yourself a legitimate target for terrorists, using whatever means they deem appropriate, no matter how brutal.
What is so disturbing to me is the support and demented justification for torture that some readers, and much of the Republican Party has embraced.
There is no "ticking bomb" scenario that torture will prevent. That's TV and movie fantasy. No wonder too many Americans have embraced a TV reality celebrity for president.
All torture does is satisfy some sick and sadistic human failing of the need to punish and revenge. Once a government uses torture they have degraded the whole society and have become worse...much worse, than the people they torture.
Evil does not rectify evil. It just lowers us all into the pit of human degradation and blood thirsty sickness and depravity that strips away every single on of the ideals we supposedly stand on.
Shame on anyone who justifies torture. Shame n anyone who says that Waterboarding is not torture. Shame on any country that uses torture.
There is no "ticking bomb" scenario that torture will prevent. That's TV and movie fantasy. No wonder too many Americans have embraced a TV reality celebrity for president.
All torture does is satisfy some sick and sadistic human failing of the need to punish and revenge. Once a government uses torture they have degraded the whole society and have become worse...much worse, than the people they torture.
Evil does not rectify evil. It just lowers us all into the pit of human degradation and blood thirsty sickness and depravity that strips away every single on of the ideals we supposedly stand on.
Shame on anyone who justifies torture. Shame n anyone who says that Waterboarding is not torture. Shame on any country that uses torture.
6
The fact that we did this sickens me.
And the fact that our president sanctioned it, tried to justify it, tried to obfuscate it with bizspeak terms like "enhanced interrogation," and hired psychologists to fine-tune our torture techniques is an outrage.
At the very least, Dick Cheney and others who engineered this policy and perpetrated this torture should be charged with war crimes.
And the fact that our president sanctioned it, tried to justify it, tried to obfuscate it with bizspeak terms like "enhanced interrogation," and hired psychologists to fine-tune our torture techniques is an outrage.
At the very least, Dick Cheney and others who engineered this policy and perpetrated this torture should be charged with war crimes.
6
Mr. Obama and Eric Holder, his AG, made the decision to not prosecute John Yoo and other attorneys in the U.S. Department of Justice who gave illegal cover for the Bush/Cheney administration to torture in our name. Obama/Holder also made the decision to not prosecute those responsible for the 2008 financial crisis. Obama/Holder also made the decision to not prosecute AG Gonzales, Karl Rove etc. for creating an illegal DOJ hiring system that only hired republican attorneys for civil service prosecutor jobs. Bottom line: The republicans are not the only ones to blame for our sad failure to protect bedrock American values including fairness, the rule of law, due process of law and justice for all. Note: Many of the right wing republican attorneys hired through the illegal Gonzales/Rove/ illegal hiring system remain in key DOJ positions today and the injustice of America's illegal torture program remains un-addressed.
6
Torture is always wrong. The decision to torture is heinous, monstrous, despicable. And it was done in our name. It was done under the banner of " "freedom and justice for all." It was a repudiation of our deepest values, our constitutional assertions, treaties and international law. It will remain forever a stain upon this nation.
Those who endorsed it, allowed it, designed it and carried it out are war criminals. Each and every one.
Those who endorsed it, allowed it, designed it and carried it out are war criminals. Each and every one.
35
The man who refused to indict the torturers is culpable too, and equally a war criminal.
I hope we have learned our lesson here; because, we have and we will pay dearly for allowing such terrible things to happen. Future generations, if there are any, will condemn what we did; because, we have turned 9/11 into a generational war that may never end or end with the complete destruction of the planet. Never before has humanity faced such terrible threats to its existence. Yet the Republican Party nominated a man like Donald Trump. It is a stain that will never be removed from that political party that will soon no longer exist.
3
The Gestapo called water boarding U-Boat and "enhanced interrogation" "intensified interrogation".
You see the difference.
You see the difference.
5
It is understandable that there is a lot of fear and anger engendered (stoked by politicians) by the lack of safety we feel but we will never find that safety by defaulting to our basest, most un-evolved instincts.
5
CIA=Complete Idiots Agency.
2
Rendition!
The day rendition becomes tradition in America, we hand our core over to our enemy, oppression. So keep you dirty work to yourselves, CIA! And if you get caught, we told you you'd get shot. Much like a mob, do the job and then shut up about it.
The day rendition becomes tradition in America, we hand our core over to our enemy, oppression. So keep you dirty work to yourselves, CIA! And if you get caught, we told you you'd get shot. Much like a mob, do the job and then shut up about it.
1
As a Jew, I don't think we should argue that torture can help save lives.
However, if it will help persuade people...
About 10 years ago now, NPR had an on air interview with a senior US field operative.
And this man described 2 real (not reality TV) events:
1) the suspect talked after he was given his favorite brand of cigarette
2) the suspect talked after interrogators assured him that they wouldn't tell his wife that documents were stashed at his mistresses' apt
That is the difference between reality and unreality: torture not only doesn't work, it degrades the torturer: you wind up in a place where, I can't find the quote, but this is , imo, a US ally talking
It is hard to get reliable child torturers; the people willing to torture children don't show up on time, they have bad work habits...
Tell me, those of you who support torture, is this really where you want to go ?
Do you want your children saying, to day was a tough day at work, I had to pull the fingernails off a nine year old child ?
cause that is where you will wind up
However, if it will help persuade people...
About 10 years ago now, NPR had an on air interview with a senior US field operative.
And this man described 2 real (not reality TV) events:
1) the suspect talked after he was given his favorite brand of cigarette
2) the suspect talked after interrogators assured him that they wouldn't tell his wife that documents were stashed at his mistresses' apt
That is the difference between reality and unreality: torture not only doesn't work, it degrades the torturer: you wind up in a place where, I can't find the quote, but this is , imo, a US ally talking
It is hard to get reliable child torturers; the people willing to torture children don't show up on time, they have bad work habits...
Tell me, those of you who support torture, is this really where you want to go ?
Do you want your children saying, to day was a tough day at work, I had to pull the fingernails off a nine year old child ?
cause that is where you will wind up
2
As a Jew, I don't think we should argue that torture can help save lives.
However, if it will help persuade people...
how many jews were persuaded in auschwitz ?
However, if it will help persuade people...
how many jews were persuaded in auschwitz ?
1
I have a question about all this: Why is it that nobody is in jail over this? The US has an obligation, according to treaty, to prosecute everyone involved, one that we've ignored.
37
no one is ever accountable in america anymore
just do what you want and you probably wont get caught
bc th so-called authorities just do whatever er they want too
just do what you want and you probably wont get caught
bc th so-called authorities just do whatever er they want too
Privilege. Law enforcement applies to the underclass only. People who are privileged can break any law, and it is legal. In this country.
1
And who do we vote for in the upcoming elections? Who will prosecute those who committed torture, who will close Gitmo, who will not start conflagrations around the world, who will close CIA prisons and reform the agency?
It's just the good old American way.
-- Bob Dylan, "Who Killed Davey Moore?"
-- Bob Dylan, "Who Killed Davey Moore?"
4
To those who feel that torture is justified, you are entitled to your opinion. But let's drop the pretense of being the 'good guys'. Making excuses for being equally as abhorrent as the 'Islamic terrorists' because of your fear, does not justify the actions of our government, does not make us safer, and does not alleviate our suffering. It turns you into hollow shell of a human being that will continue to suffer, to be angry and to be afraid. And it makes you complicit in these outrageous acts.
So hold on to that cruel unenlightened 'playground' worldview if you must but with that perspective you forfeit the right to speak of 'American Exceptionalism', to call yourself patriotic, to speak of right and wrong, or to hold any moral ground whatsoever.
You can live up to your idea of being a force for good or you can lose your humanity in the abyss of torture, but not both. It is a choice and one only you can make.
So hold on to that cruel unenlightened 'playground' worldview if you must but with that perspective you forfeit the right to speak of 'American Exceptionalism', to call yourself patriotic, to speak of right and wrong, or to hold any moral ground whatsoever.
You can live up to your idea of being a force for good or you can lose your humanity in the abyss of torture, but not both. It is a choice and one only you can make.
96
Excellent comment, thank you. I was beginning to be sick while I was reading comments of several comments above stating torture was a good idea. America is no better than the worst as long as we accept and use torture, as long as we continue invasions, wars, coups, underhanded trade deals which case great human suffering. This is all terrorism too!
1
Try having your hands cuffed behind you and a black bag placed over your head. And that is just the beginning of the interrogation.
6
for those who support torture consider the following:
- even if some tortured prisoners provided useful intel, many, maybe most, did not. if your daughter or son was suspected of something and brutally tortured before being found innocent and ignorant, would you be okay with that?
- if the American Way is to topple stable regimes, torture prisoners and illegally assassinate by drone we are essentially trying to use terror to defeat terrorists. Did Roman terror, eg public crucifixion, stop the spread of Christianity?
- do we claim moral high ground merely by having enough firepower to silence any challenge?
- for those who understand this as Christians standing against Islamic threat, what would Jesus do?
- is torture consistent with our stated beliefs and principles and if not, are we still American?
- if we succumb to our fears we are renouncing our core beliefs. we are admitting defeat in the "War on Terror".
- even if some tortured prisoners provided useful intel, many, maybe most, did not. if your daughter or son was suspected of something and brutally tortured before being found innocent and ignorant, would you be okay with that?
- if the American Way is to topple stable regimes, torture prisoners and illegally assassinate by drone we are essentially trying to use terror to defeat terrorists. Did Roman terror, eg public crucifixion, stop the spread of Christianity?
- do we claim moral high ground merely by having enough firepower to silence any challenge?
- for those who understand this as Christians standing against Islamic threat, what would Jesus do?
- is torture consistent with our stated beliefs and principles and if not, are we still American?
- if we succumb to our fears we are renouncing our core beliefs. we are admitting defeat in the "War on Terror".
16
Get off the high ground, were fighting a culture that harbors and encourages belittlement of their women, beating them, punishing them and you have the audacity to consider this culture human being we need to protect as if they were American citizens? Seriously? Making a better world for our children sometime employs that you must do the undesirable to protect them, as opposed to being equal and beheading, beating, burying women in the sand and stoning them to death for "infidelity". Pouring a little water up their nose is fine. Ask Daniel Berg, it's not equal.
Out of all the alleged terrorists/AQ members, a handful were "tortured" not the hundreds you or others allude to. Furthermore, the techniques were on a case-by-case basis
I believe you, why else would they destroy the evidence? This is one of our biggest and most destructive mistakes. We are what we do, and we did wrong. That someone else did also does NOT make it right.
9
The days after 9/11 represent one of the darkest times for America for a bevy of reasons, but the torture carried out by the CIA and our allies ranks near the top. The fact that much of it remains secret illustrates that those who partook in this activity were well aware of their crimes, and still want them to remain secret. If we are to remain true to our Constitution, then the laws of this country apply to all, or none. There are no exceptions.
We hold ourselves up to the world as Reagan's "shining city on the hill," but this activity took place in the sewers under that city.
We hold ourselves up to the world as Reagan's "shining city on the hill," but this activity took place in the sewers under that city.
15
Nothing was worse than the murder of 3000 Americans by Islamic terrorists on 9-11
Not even the ~174,000 Iraqis killed as a result of OIF? People who had not a single thing to do with 9/11, in case you forget.
Terrorism, and those who torture, are both enemies of the USA. Both are subject to the use of force in their apprehension.
8
Torture is appalling, but a government (from the President down) covering it up is even worse.
12
And we wonder why they hate us. And we can't understand how some can justify terrorism against us? Can we not see that because of this, we are the bad guys in the minds of many around the world? After reading this, can you blame them? Yes, this was carried out by just a few ugly Americans. But how can the rest of us be silent and not demand accountability? The reputation of our country, this place we call "the greatest nation in history" rests on what we say and do about this horrible episode. Obama's failure to direct the Justice Department to prosecute is one of his greatest failures as president.
62
Holy cow! We go over and over this stuff since the idiot Bush II was called out for his action in Iraq. These "few ugly Americans", as you write, had permission to go ahead in their torture from the top, the President. And to top it all off, they were given or had immunity from the start. Don't you understand how the US Government works?
1
They hate us because we are not Muslims, more specific, their version of what a Muslim should be.
We have a ways to go before we sink to the level of depravity of ISIS. But if we elect someone who gets his foreign policy information from tv and Conspiracy Radio, we may prove we are The Greatest Country for all the wrong reasons.
Jack Bauer makes for dramatic tv. But torture has been shown to be less effective than other techniques in leading to actionable information. And torturing as retribution is just evil.
Jack Bauer makes for dramatic tv. But torture has been shown to be less effective than other techniques in leading to actionable information. And torturing as retribution is just evil.
18
I don't understand why people complain about these tactics... I guess we're all feeling pretty safe... All it will take is another 9/11 type incident to happen and the first words out of people's mouths will be 'why didn't you stop this'?
If torture is the most brutal of human rights violations, what is Terrorism?
If torture is the most brutal of human rights violations, what is Terrorism?
5
Please...remember a terrorist can be defined in many ways.....one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.....you either take the high road or not, our policies have created this mess......
10
9/11 happened before we tortured anyone (so torture didn't bring it on) and what we have now are continual attempts to attack. The West is attacked because parts of Islam foster continuous war against "infidels" and encourage young men (mostly) to find their way to God through fighting the "infidel." These people have no jobs, little hope and no constructive outlet for their energies in their own countries. This does not excuse them but our excuse is simply pathetic.
Torture has been shown to elicit agreement on the part of the tortured to anything his torturers want him to acknowledge. This is not "information," this is acquiescence. The use of torture is evil and immoral no matter who does it, and it minimizes the humanity of those who torture more than those who suffer at their hands. It is simply a way to exhibit power for the nation as well as for the individual tormentor.
Cheney, Bush and Rumsfeld will go down in history as the worst of our leaders and those who follow their "logic" partake of this evil. When government is used for evil purposes like torture all those associated with it are involved in criminal activity. There is no reason for or excuse for torture, especially since it doesn't work anyway!
Torture has been shown to elicit agreement on the part of the tortured to anything his torturers want him to acknowledge. This is not "information," this is acquiescence. The use of torture is evil and immoral no matter who does it, and it minimizes the humanity of those who torture more than those who suffer at their hands. It is simply a way to exhibit power for the nation as well as for the individual tormentor.
Cheney, Bush and Rumsfeld will go down in history as the worst of our leaders and those who follow their "logic" partake of this evil. When government is used for evil purposes like torture all those associated with it are involved in criminal activity. There is no reason for or excuse for torture, especially since it doesn't work anyway!
6
Terrorism is a response to state-sponsored torture.
Sure they are guilty of crimes. Late CIA Director appeared on the Ruff House T.V. program with host Howard J. Ruff Oct. 29, 1979 and said Iran would soon have a new government, a military leader would likely be coming to power and the new government would be friendly towards Israel. His message was conveyed to the former Iranian embassy in Washington, D.C. and the U.S. embassy in Iran was captured by the Islamic Republic of Iran. This should be proof they are liars and the actions of CIA go against best interest of U.S. as the United States has now been isolated from Iran for over 35 years.
2
If one of my children's lives was at stake and someone in my custody had information that would save them, I would go to any lengths, including torture, to extract that information. But I guess when it's someone else's child, things are different. Then one urges the "high road."
11
Sounds like an episode of 24, but this is reality.
Anyone's child, anyone's child. Why would you forsake your core values to prove to your child you are also a monster? You presume a lot of wiggle room when you bring children into the room. Meanwhile, how many drown trying to escape barrel bombings?
Anyone's child, anyone's child. Why would you forsake your core values to prove to your child you are also a monster? You presume a lot of wiggle room when you bring children into the room. Meanwhile, how many drown trying to escape barrel bombings?
5
Would you like it done to you, say, by North Koreans? Would you understand
that Koreans are trying to keep themselves safe and not complain?
that Koreans are trying to keep themselves safe and not complain?
6
"Defenders of the C.I.A.’s “enhanced interrogation” program say it produced information that saved lives. The Senate report, however, concluded that the program’s defenders had exaggerated the value of the information gleaned from it and understated its brutality."
1
The US is still using Military Commissions to try suspected terrorists for war crimes while its own personnel are violating the very same Geneva Convention to extract information. We also assassinate American citizens abroad who are engaged in propaganda broadcasts and other "support for the enemy." What we call black sites are actually places where we engage in international kidnaping and torture-all illegal- and the GOP and their presumptive presidential nominee wants to increase these practices, not end them. Add to this madness the fact that our drone strikes have killed over 2,500 people, mostly innocent civilians.
And all for what? Are we really at war? If so with who? You can't be at war with an ideology, or can you? If we are at war, what is our strategy for winning and how do we define winning? Is it when no one on earth continues to support the idea of a radical Islamic state?
In the movie Catch 22 refers to a clause in the military manual that says you can be relieved of duty if you are crazy. But if you know you are crazy, you can't actually be crazy. This novel on the insanity of war aptly describes what we embrace today as foreign policy. This is how we have spent 3 trillion dollars and it has gone on so long that the press simply reports on its various pieces, without demanding answers to the central question, which is why are we doing any of this in the first place? Wee are not destroying terrorism, we are destroying our democracy.
And all for what? Are we really at war? If so with who? You can't be at war with an ideology, or can you? If we are at war, what is our strategy for winning and how do we define winning? Is it when no one on earth continues to support the idea of a radical Islamic state?
In the movie Catch 22 refers to a clause in the military manual that says you can be relieved of duty if you are crazy. But if you know you are crazy, you can't actually be crazy. This novel on the insanity of war aptly describes what we embrace today as foreign policy. This is how we have spent 3 trillion dollars and it has gone on so long that the press simply reports on its various pieces, without demanding answers to the central question, which is why are we doing any of this in the first place? Wee are not destroying terrorism, we are destroying our democracy.
43
Bravo....
3
Our democracy has been hijacked by global corporations based, or soon to be based, in tax havens around the world. They use our overt and covert power to make the world safe for billionaire profits. Take a close look at 90% of what we have done around the world in the name of Democracy and you will find rich people getting richer at our expense.
What use to be conspiracy theories are now declassified documents, and I wait until I read the documents to talk about them.
Our world is at numerous turning points at the same time. Global Warming is the biggest threat to national security as the CIA, military, and Bernie Sanders all agree. Global governance is in the hands of a few thousand billionaires, who don't need a conspiracy, just an ability to impose their like minded decisions on the rest of us, and a bunch of politicians and publishers willing to take cash to control what is "acceptable." The internet, which could be a huge force for spreading information to empower regular people is being turned into a giant vacuum so that they can squash all dissent. The economy is dominated by a few hundred global corporations all inter-owned, paying their profits to the billionaires that own most of their stock. All of these problems are caused by the global corporate revolution.
Around the world movements for social, environmental, and economic justice are putting our bodies on the line to stop the madness with peaceful protest.
Get involved.
What use to be conspiracy theories are now declassified documents, and I wait until I read the documents to talk about them.
Our world is at numerous turning points at the same time. Global Warming is the biggest threat to national security as the CIA, military, and Bernie Sanders all agree. Global governance is in the hands of a few thousand billionaires, who don't need a conspiracy, just an ability to impose their like minded decisions on the rest of us, and a bunch of politicians and publishers willing to take cash to control what is "acceptable." The internet, which could be a huge force for spreading information to empower regular people is being turned into a giant vacuum so that they can squash all dissent. The economy is dominated by a few hundred global corporations all inter-owned, paying their profits to the billionaires that own most of their stock. All of these problems are caused by the global corporate revolution.
Around the world movements for social, environmental, and economic justice are putting our bodies on the line to stop the madness with peaceful protest.
Get involved.
Makes you proud to be an American! Thanks Dick Cheney!
14
So, will anyone be held accountable?
The answer is NO!
What a country huh......torture has not ended anything, it simple creates more issues....the moral high ground, which we held, is now gone, we are just like those we oppose....weak, corrupt humans........
Thank you Bush 43....
The answer is NO!
What a country huh......torture has not ended anything, it simple creates more issues....the moral high ground, which we held, is now gone, we are just like those we oppose....weak, corrupt humans........
Thank you Bush 43....
28
GW Bush had to cancel his trip to Switzerland because there is a criminal complaint written for his war crimes.
This article is why Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the cabal should be tried for war crimes.As Mr. Bush said "I am the decider" well step up big guy.
27
Torturers come in all shapes, sizes, and uniforms. Internet videos from American police officers beating citizens throughout the country to American soldiers torturing prisoners in Iraq are readily available. Our allies, like Israel, torture Palestinians with impunity and Guantanamo has set records for official torture as an acceptible for of interrogation.
Obama summarized all of these war crimes by stating "We tortured some folks". If the United States had not refused to join the International Criminal Court in The Hague, some Americans like George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Don Rumsfeld would probably be in prison.
Somehow, we Americans manage to get away with just about everything....until we don't!
Obama summarized all of these war crimes by stating "We tortured some folks". If the United States had not refused to join the International Criminal Court in The Hague, some Americans like George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Don Rumsfeld would probably be in prison.
Somehow, we Americans manage to get away with just about everything....until we don't!
19
And thank Odin that we do! It's nice to see some countries still want to rule
The Bush torture age was a horrible period in our history.
We must find out if renditions are still taking place. (An article in this newspaper stated that they were.) If so they must stop. We should never again allow our government to behave this way. These are war crimes.
We must find out if renditions are still taking place. (An article in this newspaper stated that they were.) If so they must stop. We should never again allow our government to behave this way. These are war crimes.
16
Until those who authorized torture are brought to justice, America will remain a rogue nation. Every American has a responsibility to insist that our elected officials bring those responsible to stand trial. Otherwise, we all share in the responsibility for torture done in our name---and with our tax dollars.
29
The people who did this and, most importantly, the people who authorized this horror need to be put on trial as war criminals. Politicians who knew about it but turned a blind eye are complicit, as well, though probably beyond prosecution. Until we face it, we are all torturers.
39
Time to shut GITMO and shut up about human rights violations in other countries.
"How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye."
~ LUKE 6:42
"How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye."
~ LUKE 6:42
19
@ Noah
Plus torture.
Plus torture.
Torture is incompatible with democracy. We cannot have both.
19
Actually we can and we do. These people aren't citizens of the state.
We don't exactly have democracy, so....
The CIA is a criminal organization. It is the Federal Government's Department of Illegal Activities. That's why everything they do is secret - nearly everything they do is a both a moral and legal violation, which could be prosecuted if revealed.
True democracy is impossible while these spooks run around behind a cloak of secrecy and their tired lies about "national security."
True democracy is impossible while these spooks run around behind a cloak of secrecy and their tired lies about "national security."
10
Our view of ourselves as a nation are consistently undermined by our actions and policies. We claim to be the world police, making the world safe for democracy. This is what I was raised to believe, and how I would like to feel about my country.
But I was also taught the scientific method, and after nearly fifty years of studying history, politics, and economics, I can honestly say we are lying to our selves. Yes there are worse governments in the world, but that is no excuse.
First we terrorized the Native Americans (who learned the art of scalping from us) and the Africans (whose families we shredded for hundreds of years). We have never stopped punishing Haiti for having the first successful slave revolt.
Then we started using our overt and covert power to help corporations get cheap resources and labor around the world. We will soon be a banana republic just like the countries we gave to United Fruit and Chiquita.
We teach torture and arm death squads who kill anyone that dares to fight for the poor. We support tyrants and overthrow democratically elected governments.
If you don't like terror, stop terrorizing the world. We started it. Only we can end it.
But I was also taught the scientific method, and after nearly fifty years of studying history, politics, and economics, I can honestly say we are lying to our selves. Yes there are worse governments in the world, but that is no excuse.
First we terrorized the Native Americans (who learned the art of scalping from us) and the Africans (whose families we shredded for hundreds of years). We have never stopped punishing Haiti for having the first successful slave revolt.
Then we started using our overt and covert power to help corporations get cheap resources and labor around the world. We will soon be a banana republic just like the countries we gave to United Fruit and Chiquita.
We teach torture and arm death squads who kill anyone that dares to fight for the poor. We support tyrants and overthrow democratically elected governments.
If you don't like terror, stop terrorizing the world. We started it. Only we can end it.
113
Well said. And I agree completely.
5
Yes, John Yoo, esteemed professor of law, it was you who helped give legal cover for Bush & Cheney to conduct torture in our name. At some point, there will have to be a reckoning for all the participants, none excluded.
157
And still we have not brought the torturers to justice, the John Yoo's, the Jay Bybee's, Dick Cheney's. One of our esteemed presidential candidates wants to bring all this back, but more intense.
How will Mr. Trump select the ones to torture?
How will Mr. Trump select the ones to torture?
14
Hillary is right there, with Trump.
Read about her aiding, while Secretary of State, the coup in Honduras, wherein the President was secreted away in the middle of the night, a democratically elected President, after he suggested raising minimum wages for the people to a reasonable level, which upset foreign corporations relocating there to produce their products, using slaves wages, products to be sold back to the world at exorbitant markups.
See excerpt and link -
"In an interview with the New York Daily News, journalist Juan González dug a skeleton out of Clinton’s closet: He asked the presidential candidate about her role in the coup in Honduras"
http://www.salon.com/2016/04/15/hillary_clinton_is_lying_about_the_crimi...
Read about her aiding, while Secretary of State, the coup in Honduras, wherein the President was secreted away in the middle of the night, a democratically elected President, after he suggested raising minimum wages for the people to a reasonable level, which upset foreign corporations relocating there to produce their products, using slaves wages, products to be sold back to the world at exorbitant markups.
See excerpt and link -
"In an interview with the New York Daily News, journalist Juan González dug a skeleton out of Clinton’s closet: He asked the presidential candidate about her role in the coup in Honduras"
http://www.salon.com/2016/04/15/hillary_clinton_is_lying_about_the_crimi...
3
"At some point, there will have to be a reckoning for all the participants, none excluded."
Media too.
Media too.
2
I don't believe many people 'approve' of torture - it's not part of human nature to see people in pain and distress. Interrogation plays a very important role in law enforcement. In the years subsequent to 9-11, the U.S. allowed a wide range of security measures that had never previously been employed. The CIA played to role of a rogue agency committed to unraveling Al Qaeda - some of it's practices were inappropriate, some probably were not. I don't particularly care for the Agency' - it's usefulness seems to have declined over the years and it really doesn't seem like it's focused on national security. It's cloaked in secrecy and it appears Congress, at times, doesn't even know what's going on inside the CIA. I'm really not interested in going back and reliving the torture some of these individuals may have endured...right or wrong. It's time to move forward and make sure the Agency doesn't repeat some of the mistakes it's made in the past.
It is undoubtedly true that not everybody in the CIA, or among their contractors, is a war criminal. But it is not helpful that the Agency itself, and those who are supposed to oversee it, including both Congress and the President, continue to shield these criminals from prosecution.
The only argument that can be made in favor of decriminalizing torture is that the ends justify the means. We should all be aware of where that leads: to totalitarianism and repression.
The only argument that can be made in favor of decriminalizing torture is that the ends justify the means. We should all be aware of where that leads: to totalitarianism and repression.
33
George W. Bush, Dick Cheney etal are criminals. They should be arrested for war crimes and go to prison - FOR LIFE. When Al Qaeda and ISIS see this report (and we know they will) they will ratchet up their activities in this country and around the world. The Bush administration - the gift that keeps on giving.....PLEASE NOTE SARCASM.
57
One of the charges should be criminal incompetence.
5
Mrs Clinton was an integral part of the team that went to war. She knew full well exactly what it was. Also supported and continues to support torture. She is against torture as a policy, but favors torture as a tactic. Policy being a Clintontonian legal weasel word, of course.
Serving over 26 years in the Armed Forces gives me a certain opinion about this. As I have saw the injuries and deaths from heinous terrorists acts. My mind clicks to self preservation for myself and my family, my fellow Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. We have to use harsh measures to be able to stop the next attack. Just as we are given rules of engagement, for example, I can't rightfully use a grenade launcher to kill a single combatant. But in turn the enemy has killed our Service members with IED's made from artillery shells. So to that I say we need to respond in kind. I believe we need to use whatever means we need to ensure we stop the next terrorist attack.
8
If we "respond in kind" we are no better than our so-called enemies, whether those enemies are real or figments demonized by our government and the media for some pecuniary reward.
13
We tortured innocent people, and we lowered ourselves to our enemies standards. Our behavior did not make us safer, it increased our vulnerability.
25
Does that include torturing people who were not involved in terrorist acts?
13
Cruelty is becoming as American as Apple Pie. Cruelty surrounds us, it permeates our media. It permeates our public discourse. It permeates our political debate. Under such conditions, why would anyone be shocked that our government practices torture?
Lastly, make no mistake: we are all complicit. We are the Nation of the Cruel. Until the American people recall that they are better this and do something about it, we will continue to be so.
Lastly, make no mistake: we are all complicit. We are the Nation of the Cruel. Until the American people recall that they are better this and do something about it, we will continue to be so.
89
This is not really news as most people with a brain realize every element of governance lies to everyone all the time.
7
What? The CIA made a mistake? Oh no, don't tell me. And here I was led to believe our government agencies never make mistakes.
But all joking aside folks the CIA has been causing what is called blowback since back in the 50's with the Commie phobic elements that imagined a Commie under every bed and bush. Remember Joe McCarthy ?
After reading this article is it any wonder we have so many dedicated Muslim enemies?
But all joking aside folks the CIA has been causing what is called blowback since back in the 50's with the Commie phobic elements that imagined a Commie under every bed and bush. Remember Joe McCarthy ?
After reading this article is it any wonder we have so many dedicated Muslim enemies?
47
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, CIA...criminals
We are no better than Iran, China, etc.
What a dark and sad chapter for America...
We are no better than Iran, China, etc.
What a dark and sad chapter for America...
112
"we are no better than Iran, China, etc" with respect to human rights? What a terrible example of moral relativism. Please read more about human rights in those countries and it'll put our country's faults into perspective.
Of course we can do better and should strive to, but being imperfect doesn't relegate us toward the bottom of the heap.
Of course we can do better and should strive to, but being imperfect doesn't relegate us toward the bottom of the heap.
3
Oh please with the drama. Don't good liberals like you believe in the innocence of people until proven guilty. Bush Cheny et al were never criminally charged and Holder did a complete investigation. Bush's leadership got us through 9-11 and prevented another attack on our soil. Many have been slaughtered in Ametica under Obama's watch. Can you handle that truth?
2
Flint Exactly and, as you say, very sad.
it just makes me ashamed and angry, at the CIA and Congress, who funds our monsters
42
While these are disturbing findings, those who think these methods are not necessary should take serious pause. Waterboarding is not torture. It is done to our own special opps forces apart of their training. The enhanced interrogation technique led to getting the information about who OBL's courier was and that led to his capture and killing. (Thank you George W. Bush and his AG) So let us get over it already. This is why Trump's message is resonating. America has gotten soft. The terrorists mock us and laugh at us that we are even debating the subject.
12
Waterboarding IS torture. Just because we do it to our own doesn't mitigate it. No actionable intelligence was gained through torture. In fact, the actionable intelligence was gained through trust establishment, a much more effective technique.
16
they don't mock us. They fear us because they know that in our heart of hearts the American public does not support torture. And they fear if we actually do start practicing what we preach they will have no cause. And they will then be foresaked to living in a desert with nothing no cause in their life. Fighting always causes more fighting. And you can't make them go away. Not by a long shot. ISIS proved that and there will be another ISIS when thats gone. No they fear if there had actually been no torture they would have to live up to Gods real meaning. No need now. Or ever since Bush and John Yoo.
2
Standing in a cold room is not torture - if you do it for three minutes. How about if some strangers make you stand in a cold room, until you admit whatever they want you to admit? Or until you die of a combination of malnutrition and hypothermia. That would take several days. Would you still feel the same about what is and what isn't torture after 48 hours of "not being tortured" by standing in a cold room with no clothes on and nothing to eat?
6
The full story on U.S. government directed clandestine torture post-911 has yet to be revealed. Surely the CIA and other operatives will not willingly implicate or incriminate themselves.
‘“At a time when some politicians are proposing that the torture program be resurrected, it’s crucial that the American public have access to these firsthand statements, and not only to the self-serving accounts offered by those who authorized the torture,” said Dror Ladin, an A.C.L.U. staff attorney.”
Some politicians? Surely the NYTimes has the resources to name the names.
‘“At a time when some politicians are proposing that the torture program be resurrected, it’s crucial that the American public have access to these firsthand statements, and not only to the self-serving accounts offered by those who authorized the torture,” said Dror Ladin, an A.C.L.U. staff attorney.”
Some politicians? Surely the NYTimes has the resources to name the names.
52
One of the names would have to be Richard Cheney, who proudly announced his involvement during an interview on CNN.
3
Torture is recognized universally as the most heinous of crimes against our fellow human beings. Torture is the worst and most brutal of human rights violations.
The United States of America has tortured people, the orders to do so came from the very highest levels of the government of The United States of America. The United States of America has publicly admitted to this.
Under international law to which the United States of America is subject as well as treaty law to which the United States of America has agreed and ratified and including United States of America domestic law - torture is a crime - and not only that these laws demand that those who order and/or carry out torture be prosecuted. Prosecution of torturers is canonize in law, yet the United States of America has not prosecuted anyone for torture.
The United States of America should not be allowed to use its power to protect its officials and former officials and show such utter contempt for the rule of law.
The United States of America has tortured people, the orders to do so came from the very highest levels of the government of The United States of America. The United States of America has publicly admitted to this.
Under international law to which the United States of America is subject as well as treaty law to which the United States of America has agreed and ratified and including United States of America domestic law - torture is a crime - and not only that these laws demand that those who order and/or carry out torture be prosecuted. Prosecution of torturers is canonize in law, yet the United States of America has not prosecuted anyone for torture.
The United States of America should not be allowed to use its power to protect its officials and former officials and show such utter contempt for the rule of law.
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What makes people go wrong?: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg
Every guard at gItmo should be tried at The Hague for war crimes by an international panel from neutral nations.
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But don't stop with the guards. They were following orders, and those that gave the order should also be on trial.
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The guards are not the problem.
No need to call Trump names and warn how "government ethics" would be jeopardized. Americans love to stay dilusional about their own morals. But US officials have been acting like (put in any convenient animal) all along.
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So you concentrate and headline the horrors of what our country does..and blame our government for doing horrible things. Meanwhile Islamic terrorists are throwing gays off buildings and crashing airplanes into buildings killing thousands of innocent people. If the New York Times building was the target instesd of the WTC I wonder what your front page would be. Some context please.
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We created ISIS.
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That others may be morally and legally wrong does not excuse or obscure those same faults in ourselves.
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Yes they do some horrible things and I agree with you. Also consider that in the Viet Nam War almost 600,000 civilians were killed included in that was the Mai Lai massacre, and the Bob Kerry massacre etc.. In Iraq around 150,000 civilians were killed. So who's winning in totals?
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True patriots, that CIA, creating far more problems for the nation than solved. A waste of taxpayer money to support a bunch of criminal clowns.
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Talk about burying the lead! Shouldn't the headline have been: Torture failed to produce new info confirmed or: Administration Lies About Effective Use of Torture Confirmed
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