There are 2 key lessons to take away from the attack in San Bernardino in December and the shooting yesterday in Orlando:
First, there are enough radicalized American citizens to do all the killing that ISIS needs without worrying about needing to bring additional terrorists from abroad. Thus, Trump's ban on immigration of all Muslims is pointless and feckless.
Second, ISIS is having the last laugh at the NRA, the neoconservatives, and Trump himself. Because for all the pablum about Americans needing to be armed to defend themselves, the only people getting killed by all these assault weapons are innocent Americans. I have not read of one mass shooter being stopped by a gun nut with an assault weapon. And if everyone in the Orlando club had "carried," it would not have made one bit of difference - except to maybe get more innocent people killed in the confusion.
First, there are enough radicalized American citizens to do all the killing that ISIS needs without worrying about needing to bring additional terrorists from abroad. Thus, Trump's ban on immigration of all Muslims is pointless and feckless.
Second, ISIS is having the last laugh at the NRA, the neoconservatives, and Trump himself. Because for all the pablum about Americans needing to be armed to defend themselves, the only people getting killed by all these assault weapons are innocent Americans. I have not read of one mass shooter being stopped by a gun nut with an assault weapon. And if everyone in the Orlando club had "carried," it would not have made one bit of difference - except to maybe get more innocent people killed in the confusion.
89
Yes, we are EXCEPTIONAL.
Exceptionally bad.
Exceptionally bad.
49
The NRA would have us believe that "guns don't kill people, people do" and they blame the mental health system. I just don't understand a nation and legislature that suspends all logic and accepts this nonsense.
If this Orlando gunman had not been able to legally obtain an automatic weapon that allowed him to kill dozens quickly, fewer deaths would have happened. Why can't we extent the definition of "terrorist" to those Americans who allow the rest of us to be subjected to unnecessary weapons of mass killing?
If this Orlando gunman had not been able to legally obtain an automatic weapon that allowed him to kill dozens quickly, fewer deaths would have happened. Why can't we extent the definition of "terrorist" to those Americans who allow the rest of us to be subjected to unnecessary weapons of mass killing?
42
Unfortunately your guns also leak over your Northern border and affect us as well. We would really appreciate it if you would finally do something about that.
74
The Supreme Court Justices who ignored "a well regulated Militia" in its misinterpretation of the language of the Second Amendment should explain their opinion to families of the victims and the people of the United States.
74
That "well regulated militia" has really expanded.
30
Quite frankly, it is outrageous that we, USA, continue to allow the purchase of guns (under whatever "checks" there are). If you look at this data and the results from Australia's "turn your guns in", the US is pathetic. It is an embarrassment to see the other industrialized countries with so few massacres. Violence should NOT be the answer to someone's pain. What the hell are we doing???
39
And what about the less developed countries. The U.S. is the major supplier of guns to the rest of the world. I have yet to see a single NYT article on suicides, accidental deaths, children killed, etc. from the guns we supply to the third world. When we start to value the dead in the third world like we do in Chicago or Paris, I might start to pay attention.
21
There are many many causes of the toxic anger which causes a person to kill another person or an entire room full of other persons. The problem to be dealt with right now is the availability on the open legal gun market of automatic weapons. These weapons MUST be removed from shops NOW. They serve no useful purpose outside of the mililtary.
Look at and find ways to help people but first GET RID OF THE ASSAULT WEAPONS.
Look at and find ways to help people but first GET RID OF THE ASSAULT WEAPONS.
49
So. Maybe we are not such an advanced country.
We value guns more than lives. We value "gun rights" more than people. We don't care that tens of thousands of Americans die every year from guns. We don't love our children, our husbands, our sisters, our wives. We don't love our husbands, our brothers, our fathers.
People are shot by toddlers. People are shot sitting on their beds after a hard day's work. People are shot on the way home from school, waiting at the bus stop, walking from the store.
Children and their teachers are gunned down in an elementary school. Nobody cares enough to change the law.
Now this. The GOP's presidential candidate wants to ban Muslims. He says immigrants but he means all Muslims. The shooter in Orlando was born here. His parents came here to escape upheaval in Afghanistan in 1979.
Trump wants to ban Muslims, initiate pogroms, force neighbor to spy upon neighbor - but he is against a ban on assault weapons.
Something's completely out of whack.
We value guns more than lives. We value "gun rights" more than people. We don't care that tens of thousands of Americans die every year from guns. We don't love our children, our husbands, our sisters, our wives. We don't love our husbands, our brothers, our fathers.
People are shot by toddlers. People are shot sitting on their beds after a hard day's work. People are shot on the way home from school, waiting at the bus stop, walking from the store.
Children and their teachers are gunned down in an elementary school. Nobody cares enough to change the law.
Now this. The GOP's presidential candidate wants to ban Muslims. He says immigrants but he means all Muslims. The shooter in Orlando was born here. His parents came here to escape upheaval in Afghanistan in 1979.
Trump wants to ban Muslims, initiate pogroms, force neighbor to spy upon neighbor - but he is against a ban on assault weapons.
Something's completely out of whack.
108
Guns don't make us safer. Guns kill us.
Get rid of the guns.
Get rid of the guns.
49
It is absolutely outrageous and horrifying that this country allows this type of violence to occur. People who are hiding behind the lines of "it's not the guns who kill people, it's people who kill" and the politicians who are selfishly benefiting from this deadly gun business should look honestly into their souls and do the right thing. Why is it that we cannot even have the most basic background checks enforced reliably and effectively? Why is it that we do not learn from these tragedies? Why is it that we put politics before common sense?
Do the right thing, please. I pray for this country.
Do the right thing, please. I pray for this country.
70
Some things in our world are just baked into the DNA of a culture---unfortunately, guns is our DNA burden. We could fill a library with books on how this happened, but, no matter what evidence you bring to this debate, the ownership, the wearing, the shooting, the buying, the cleaning, of guns is sacred to who we are as a nation. I know what the studies say, most people don't own guns, but those who do, now control a cultural meme that makes our fear of Mexican cartels laughable.
33
Let's ban these guns- no reason for anyone to own one.
23
I am afraid that more copy-cats will hurt us all more often.
8
99.9% of legal gun owners are not violent. There are millions upon millions of owners. Much more than the NYT audience can comprehend. It isn't fringe. Add suicide to numbers reported here and story changes. Same if you add violent crime in countries that have banned guns. Less likely to be killed by gun but even larger increase in chance of violent crime. Sorry for cold facts.
Our ancestors fought a bloody revolution for the rights the NYT crowd can't wait to give away. To get them back -- ever -- would take another bloody revolution. That's why you tread cautiously with giving away any Liberty to government.
Our ancestors fought a bloody revolution for the rights the NYT crowd can't wait to give away. To get them back -- ever -- would take another bloody revolution. That's why you tread cautiously with giving away any Liberty to government.
8
Our 30,000 gun deaths aren't inevitable, or normal or ok. Likewise our 33,000 traffic deaths. That's why it's disappointing to read about car "accidents" just three weeks after this Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/science/its-no-accident-advocates-want...
It matters what words we use to describe gun deaths, and road deaths likewise. #CrashNotAccident
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/science/its-no-accident-advocates-want...
It matters what words we use to describe gun deaths, and road deaths likewise. #CrashNotAccident
7
So lets try this...since accomplishing anything here will take some compromise on both sides, how about we trade off some "common sense" rules on gun control for some "common sense" rules on abortion restrictions. Say perhaps a ban on abortions after the first trimester, except in documented cases of danger to the life of the mother. In return, lets agree to have restrictions on so called "semi-automatic" weapons and enhanced background checks.
Politics is the art of compromise, and there's something here for everyone to both like and hate.
Politics is the art of compromise, and there's something here for everyone to both like and hate.
3
Charts and graphs can be helpful. These could be better, much better.
4
Every time there is a shooting, we get this same statistically-enhanced handwringing. The number we always hear is "33,000 gun deaths a year!"
Two thirds of those are suicides.
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides....
The majority of the remaining 11,000 (~80%) are gang-related.
Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf
I know that lets a lot of the air out of The Narrative™, but facts are facts.
Two thirds of those are suicides.
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides....
The majority of the remaining 11,000 (~80%) are gang-related.
Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf
I know that lets a lot of the air out of The Narrative™, but facts are facts.
13
Ah yes, another story highlighting how "exceptional" our country is. Was the one on heroin and opiate addiction featured yesterday, the outrageous cost of health care the day before, the amount spent on nuclear weapons before that? Does this suggest to anyone why many other nations want to protect themselves from US culture?
15
This too shall pass - until the next slaughter. Then more angst, more endless analysis. But no action. Nothing changes. Get used to it. This is America.
14
Why is the article focused only on gun homicides? Are the people outside the US committing more homicides with other weapons?
9
Right! But those other countries don't have a second amendment, let alone, necessarily a Comstitution!
10
Be careful. If you keep printing stories like this the NRA will get Congress to pass a law prohibiting the CDC from collecting data on gun deaths. Not helpful for that "good guy with a gun" story line, you know.
8
Before the NRA trolls show up - the dramatic chart showing US is alone among wealthy western countries is already normalized to population but does not "correct" for gang related gun deaths. Contrary to what some web sites and bogus news outlets like fox claim the % of gang related of gun homicides nation wide is between 10 and 20%. Assuming the other countries in this chart have no gang related gun homicides, the US remains a huge outlier - at between 20 and 25. Folks - we got a gun problem!
6
American exceptionalism in extremis!
2
I would be very curious to see a comparison of homicides rates for other types of weapons in these same countries.
That is, is the homicide rate due to any kind of weapon (not just guns) the same or very similar in all these countries, with a disproportionate amount of the US percentage coming from guns, or is the overall US homicide rate also higher than these other countries?
Likewise, how does the rate of knife homicides in the US compare to other countries? Strangulation? Blunt force trauma? Other manners of homicide?
I often hear the argument against gun control that people will find a way to kill people whether they have a gun or not. My gut feeling is that people in these other countries are not finding other ways to kill people such that their homicide rates keep pace with that of the US.
That is, is the homicide rate due to any kind of weapon (not just guns) the same or very similar in all these countries, with a disproportionate amount of the US percentage coming from guns, or is the overall US homicide rate also higher than these other countries?
Likewise, how does the rate of knife homicides in the US compare to other countries? Strangulation? Blunt force trauma? Other manners of homicide?
I often hear the argument against gun control that people will find a way to kill people whether they have a gun or not. My gut feeling is that people in these other countries are not finding other ways to kill people such that their homicide rates keep pace with that of the US.
8
it's not about guns...it's about religion and mentally ill people.
Islam, Christianity, and other religions are evil. Not giving mentally ill people the help they need is evil. I'm a Transgender woman who owns an AR-15 and the gun itself is not going to make me shoot up anyone. Guns are a tool or insane people and religious maniacs. Simple as that.
Also, banning assault weapons will not stop people from committing mass murder to please their God....they will just buy two pistols like Virginia Tech. I know I will never give up my AR-15 because I am an American and I believe I should have the freedom to own a weapon if I so choose.
Islam, Christianity, and other religions are evil. Not giving mentally ill people the help they need is evil. I'm a Transgender woman who owns an AR-15 and the gun itself is not going to make me shoot up anyone. Guns are a tool or insane people and religious maniacs. Simple as that.
Also, banning assault weapons will not stop people from committing mass murder to please their God....they will just buy two pistols like Virginia Tech. I know I will never give up my AR-15 because I am an American and I believe I should have the freedom to own a weapon if I so choose.
5
As an avid hunter, I see no reason for assault rifles. It is not legal to shoot game with a gun that holds more than 5 rounds. Military style guns are not for hunting, they are designed to shoot lots of people fast.
30
How is it that we license and insure everyday liabilities like cars and homes, but not guns.
How did we miss that?
How did we miss that?
19
Oh, come on NYTs—if everyone in that Orlando nightclub had been armed, how many fewer deaths would there have been? How many of the gun deaths cited in this article could have been prevented if their victims and those around them had been armed? It's time for every law-abiding citizen—myself included—to consider much more seriously taking the responsible step of preparing themselves to defend their families, their friends, and the public at large by getting firearms training and arming themselves, especially when in exposed public areas.
3
So, why do the NRA types insist on bearing arms everywhere short of the shower stall? Why, to protect themselves from other Americans carrying guns. Not once do they consider the source of their fright: The ridiculously easy access to guns, easier to buy in some jurisdictions than a bag of skittles.
Circular logic at its worst.
Circular logic at its worst.
18
can you follow this with another article regarding gun possession laws in other countries? (or point me to the one you already wrote).
1
As noted in a Live Update minutes ago, the Gun Dealer who sold Mateen two weapons remarked: that "he did not know the gunman."
Precisely.
The message to gun dealers in this country:
If someone walks up to your cash register with semi/automatic weapons, think twice. You, your family members, your friends are potential victims.
Congress and the Senate have blood on their hands.
Precisely.
The message to gun dealers in this country:
If someone walks up to your cash register with semi/automatic weapons, think twice. You, your family members, your friends are potential victims.
Congress and the Senate have blood on their hands.
16
The gun nuts, who fetishize guns, are mostly white and really don't have a dog in this fight. Most homicides are perpetrated by minority males on others like themselves in poor urban areas. Most whites killed by guns die in accidents. The blue collar gun people ought to move out of the way and at least let the police get the guns of the mean streets. Then they can discuss whether the Great Originalist knew what he was doing when he disregarded the militia clause in that sentence he was explaining to the rest of us.
7
Forget about common sense gun control, what about common sense interpretation of the 2nd amendment?
Democrats bend over backwards not to scare people who believe in a perverse reading of the 2nd amendment: "We're not coming after your guns" , "we're not looking to ban guns"
So what if we are?
As long as we're not going after the guns of state militias, it's completely constitutional, I'm sure we're not far from a Supreme Court majority who believes the same.
The people arguing for common sense gun measures definitely believe in going much further than that. It's time we control the narrative instead of formulating policy in the form of concessions to the nra and gop
Democrats bend over backwards not to scare people who believe in a perverse reading of the 2nd amendment: "We're not coming after your guns" , "we're not looking to ban guns"
So what if we are?
As long as we're not going after the guns of state militias, it's completely constitutional, I'm sure we're not far from a Supreme Court majority who believes the same.
The people arguing for common sense gun measures definitely believe in going much further than that. It's time we control the narrative instead of formulating policy in the form of concessions to the nra and gop
27
Hi. This is Clint Eastwood from the movies. (It really is, believe me.) I'm telling you, we need more guns, not less. Then if the bad guys try to shoot us up, those of us packing' heat will rapidly and calmly crouch behind a convenient barricade while the assailant's bullets fly about aimlessly. We will squint our eyes, take some shots--bam! bam! bam!... and the bad guys will lie dead on the ground.
--Clint Eastwood from the movies (believe me)
--Clint Eastwood from the movies (believe me)
19
Bloodshed has replaced apple pie.
17
Wonder if author has data to show how these rates compare by socioeconomic quintile? Is the US an outlier across income levels?
4
Where in the Constitution does it say we cannot sue gun dealers and gun manufacturers for deaths and injuries caused by the products they sell?
23
Banish guns in the U.S. the way Australia did. Only the military and the police should have them. The only exception should be for licensed hunters in rural areas.
27
We need to license, mandate insurance,hold manufacturers accountable, demand training as part of licensing gun holders. We need to legislate that Americans can live in gun free zones if they choose. We need to demand those who have guns on their person in public areas identify themselves,so those who do not want them in their vicinity have the right to not be exposed to their potential danger. People who espouse violence should be kept from obtaining or having guns. Guns should be as regulated as any other potentially dangerous machinery,drugs,or vehicles. People who do not secure their guns should be charged with felony recklessness . Any one caught with an unlicensed gun should be charged with a felony. These requirements do not endanger any citizen from having a gun. So all who say they will never relinquish their firearms unless it is taken from their "dead,cold hands" has nothing to worry about. Unless,like any other license ,they are not qualified. We license teachers, doctors, lawyers,etc.,but we cannot do the same prerequisite screening for gun holders . There is never absolute safety in anything we do,but as the NRA says, guns don't kill ,people do,so let's regulate people's ability to get them!
15
A young friend ask my help translating a document yesterday, guide to purchasing and using gun in California. Her friend was studying in America and had been told she should have a gun for self-defense; living in Oakland. Well engineered manual, heavy on safety and violations for buying from anyone but licensed merchant. I helped.
Told her not to worry, in an average year, roughly only a hundred thousand Americans are killed or wounded with guns.
Told her not to worry, in an average year, roughly only a hundred thousand Americans are killed or wounded with guns.
4
A new definition of the NRA - No Respect for Americans.
Blood, tears and anguish have no effect on firearm regulations.
When is enough enough?
Blood, tears and anguish have no effect on firearm regulations.
When is enough enough?
26
Apples v pears v bananas.
This comparison is meaningless.
Obviously if there are less guns there are less gun deaths.
Living in a society with strict gun rules, the weapon of choice is the machete. The horror is a man running amok (or thugs) in the market place.
In China, Hong Kong - the chopper (small version of the cleaver, multi purpose kitchen knife).
People will kill people with whatever is available.
This comparison is meaningless.
Obviously if there are less guns there are less gun deaths.
Living in a society with strict gun rules, the weapon of choice is the machete. The horror is a man running amok (or thugs) in the market place.
In China, Hong Kong - the chopper (small version of the cleaver, multi purpose kitchen knife).
People will kill people with whatever is available.
1
Is it possible that NRA stands for
Nihilistic
Ridiculous
Abnormals?
Will it be wise to shut down NRA and throw them in the jailhouse for enabling and arming terrorists foreign and domestics? Is Trump a thug for having received early endorsement from such a craven group?
Nihilistic
Ridiculous
Abnormals?
Will it be wise to shut down NRA and throw them in the jailhouse for enabling and arming terrorists foreign and domestics? Is Trump a thug for having received early endorsement from such a craven group?
14
Thursday is my birthday. (It's also Bloomsday. I was destined by birth to be an English major.) I am now, supposedly, a senior citizen. This seems like a clerical error. As far as I am concerned, my "shot" has yet to arrive, and I'm not going to miss it. ("Rise up!" is my motto.)
That "shot," however, does not come from a gun. What age has brought me is a determination to no longer keep my mouth shut, including when speaking to those of my relatives who should audition, along with Donald Trump, for featured roles in "The Book of Morons." Discretion is the better part of valor, for sure; but dumb and irresponsible is dumb and irresponsible. Our weak gun regulations, and the excuses provided by the NRA and its supporters for the same are illogical, not founded in fact and, in a word, lethal.
When I was in my teens, JFK, RFK, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King were assassinated -all in one decade. Now, thanks to AK-47s and other automatic toys, available to wackos thanks to the NRA and Congress, we have moved from political assassination to mass murder. Don't like abortion? Kill a few doctors. Black people? Hit a church. Gays? Blow away a night club. Anybody? Invoke ISIS.
Anyone who votes for Trump will ensure that the next Supreme Court justice will keep guns in the hands of lunatics. We can change laws state-by-state, but need the Supreme Court to declare those laws constitutional. As for the opponents - s-t-u-p-i-d. (It's my birthday, and I'll spell if I want to.)
That "shot," however, does not come from a gun. What age has brought me is a determination to no longer keep my mouth shut, including when speaking to those of my relatives who should audition, along with Donald Trump, for featured roles in "The Book of Morons." Discretion is the better part of valor, for sure; but dumb and irresponsible is dumb and irresponsible. Our weak gun regulations, and the excuses provided by the NRA and its supporters for the same are illogical, not founded in fact and, in a word, lethal.
When I was in my teens, JFK, RFK, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King were assassinated -all in one decade. Now, thanks to AK-47s and other automatic toys, available to wackos thanks to the NRA and Congress, we have moved from political assassination to mass murder. Don't like abortion? Kill a few doctors. Black people? Hit a church. Gays? Blow away a night club. Anybody? Invoke ISIS.
Anyone who votes for Trump will ensure that the next Supreme Court justice will keep guns in the hands of lunatics. We can change laws state-by-state, but need the Supreme Court to declare those laws constitutional. As for the opponents - s-t-u-p-i-d. (It's my birthday, and I'll spell if I want to.)
120
The North American continent was attacked by European predators searching for slaves, gold, silver, precious stones, fish and anything else to return to the nobility of Europe in 1492. Columbus was a genocidal murderer who annihilated the natives of Hispaniola and didn't do the indigenous native occupants of the northern continental landmass any favors. Nor did the British. Who were not satisfied with defeat in 1798 but returned for a closing act in 1812 by burning the Capitol to the ground. Only the Nazis, in WWII, stopped a British genocide that devastated the world for over 1,000 years.
The USA was founded on violence, while some of its people, whites, the influential, and moneyed types, were empowered by a Constitution that institutionalized violent behavior. America was and remains a very violent society and a culture that adores its militant prowess. THAT'S WHY THE USA SPENDS MORE ON ARMAMENTS THAT THE ENTIRE WORLD COMBINED. Shooting animals and other people, notably American Indians, here is as American as apple pie. No one thinks to criticize the Army, Navy, Airforce, and those singularly efficient killers, the Marine corps for spreading death and destruction around the world. The USA has militarily invaded foreign nations over 140 times since 1945.
In this world, you reap what you sow. So, stop bellyaching about violence in America. It's what we do, it's who we are.
The USA was founded on violence, while some of its people, whites, the influential, and moneyed types, were empowered by a Constitution that institutionalized violent behavior. America was and remains a very violent society and a culture that adores its militant prowess. THAT'S WHY THE USA SPENDS MORE ON ARMAMENTS THAT THE ENTIRE WORLD COMBINED. Shooting animals and other people, notably American Indians, here is as American as apple pie. No one thinks to criticize the Army, Navy, Airforce, and those singularly efficient killers, the Marine corps for spreading death and destruction around the world. The USA has militarily invaded foreign nations over 140 times since 1945.
In this world, you reap what you sow. So, stop bellyaching about violence in America. It's what we do, it's who we are.
9
If we want to solve this problem, why doesn't Congress just make it illegal to kill people? Seems simple enough.
2
I was born in the US and have traveled to 13 other advanced countries around the world. Even when traveling alone and walking down dark alleyways at night I generally feel very safe in other countries. In America, I expect to be randomly attacked or shot on a daily basis even in affluent areas.
Also, if, as the NRA insists, guns don't kill, but people do, wouldn't we expect the rates of attack by swords or other weapons to be higher in other countries? The fact is, guns make it easy to kill ... a lot of people ... quickly even if the gun itself is not alive and doing the shooting.
People want to have the freedom to bear arms. What about the freedom to not be killed in a mass shooting? Gun advocates gain a freedom and the rest of America loses a freedom by the same token.
Also, if, as the NRA insists, guns don't kill, but people do, wouldn't we expect the rates of attack by swords or other weapons to be higher in other countries? The fact is, guns make it easy to kill ... a lot of people ... quickly even if the gun itself is not alive and doing the shooting.
People want to have the freedom to bear arms. What about the freedom to not be killed in a mass shooting? Gun advocates gain a freedom and the rest of America loses a freedom by the same token.
21
Where were Honduras and South Africa on that chart?
My Boer cousins tell me that about 90 people a day die in South Africa with about 60 a day being White.
My Boer cousins tell me that about 90 people a day die in South Africa with about 60 a day being White.
5
About 25 years ago we had a crazed gunman open fire and kill several commuters travelling on the Long Island Rail Road. While the gunman reloaded his weapon to shoot some more people, three brave young men rushed him and beat him senseless. I can't understand why someone... ANYONE in the Pulse Club didn't rush the gunman and 'take him out'.
4
If one of those 300 people in the Orlando club had a gun, the killer could have been stopped with one bullet.
5
all right, commenters: everyone is outraged by this. so let's do the sanest thing here - let's vote to kick the republicans out for good. do Americans need *any* further proof that what keeps the USA from a well earned and respected spot w other real first world nations is the republican party? Come on. get out, vote them out, then we talk about progress. till then, they'll be doing their darndest to send america into a downward spiral of poverty, death, financial ruin and war.
24
This article talks too much sense with hard data and logical reasoning.
That requires too much thinking for an insecure, NRA-card carrying gun nut. Otherwise we will not be in this mess as a nation.
That requires too much thinking for an insecure, NRA-card carrying gun nut. Otherwise we will not be in this mess as a nation.
19
Despite it's technological toys and gadgets, America is and always has been a morally bankrupted, primitive, and brutal society in all the things that matter --moral courage, justice for all, respect for human life.
16
I think it is interesting to note that the US has so much in common with the Islamic jihadists.
The Islamic jihadists want to go back in time and live in the past, almost 1400 hundred years in the past, when Islam came into being.
The US, as a country, does not have that long a history. Its history is only about 350 years old. But we want to go back and live in that past and enjoy the rights and privileges of each of us owning one or more guns.
The Islamic jihadists want to go back in time and live in the past, almost 1400 hundred years in the past, when Islam came into being.
The US, as a country, does not have that long a history. Its history is only about 350 years old. But we want to go back and live in that past and enjoy the rights and privileges of each of us owning one or more guns.
19
The US has a distinct political culture from other capitalist nations which aids and abets groups like the NRA, hate groups, etc . It now finds expression in the Republican party and its candidate.
18
It's impossible to get all the long guns, but you could tax primers, the only component they can't make without risking disaster. Like $5 each, and use the money to buy back assault rifles and make owners of pistols buy insurance. Real insurance.
4
Allowing the assault rifle ban to expire in 2004 was pure greed. Not putting it back after Newtown was craven. After Orlando...it is criminal
No one needs an assault rifle and yes they should be registered and ammunition taxed and stored at at licensed inspected gun club
No one needs an assault rifle and yes they should be registered and ammunition taxed and stored at at licensed inspected gun club
221
As long as an assault rifle is as available as a cup of coffee around the corner, it just takes one mentally ill person or a fanatic to commit a mass murder. Is this what the right to bear arms mean? I can do without!
151
Since 1968 to today more civilians have died to guns than all military members in ALL the wars the US has fought in. Gun owners are a minority - not a majority of citizens - yet this minority is the only voice Republicans listen too.
To Republicans in Congress it is more important to be re-elected than to do the right thing. Come November vote ever Republican out of office.
To Republicans in Congress it is more important to be re-elected than to do the right thing. Come November vote ever Republican out of office.
91
Gun homicide should be lumped in with other forms. Dead is dead after all. Even then homicide rate will be higher in the US, but at least it's a little less disingenuous.
2
I am glad some people i know outside of the US do not have easy acess to a gun. Some people just cannot control themselves, have a bad temper, are fed up with everything, or are frustrated, suicidal... Why make it easy for them to kill and destroy in seconds? Some regulations in the US are really bizarre and endanger the people!
34
If there were a ban on guns of all kinds with a very limited exception for traditional hunting rifles, please tell me how this individual in Orlando -- or any of the other crazed individuals behind mass shootings in the US -- would have obtained the semi-automatic weapons they used to murder the innocent. With a gun ban in place, the illegal gun market would be inextricably tied to the illegal drug trade. It seems extremely far fetched to assume any of the individuals behind these mass shootings would have even the remotest connection to someone involved in selling guns illegally. The conversation surrounding this latest tragedy should have one and only one issue at its heart: ease of access to weapons made for killing humans and whether such weapons should be banned. What is sad is that the more shootings we have in this country the quicker the real issue seems to be cast aside in favor of some irrelevant and altogether pointless inquiry into something like whether ISIS was involved.
Ban guns......nothing else will stop the steady stream of mass murder in this country.
Ban guns......nothing else will stop the steady stream of mass murder in this country.
208
Tax every hand gun purchase a $10,000 safety tax plus a $2000 per year maintenance and records tax.
And outlaw assault weapons outright.
And outlaw assault weapons outright.
51
Guess that's the kind of country we all want to live in, right? Our elected too cowardly to stand up to the NRA, and our voters too self-destructive to vote for those who will.
106
Trump would violate the constitution and ban people based on religion. stands to reason he might violate the constitution, and ban assault rifles, or even all guns. Be careful what you wish for NRA supporters. You may be next!
20
Following the attempted assasination of George Wallace, President Nixon recorded a conversation with White Hose counsel John Dean in which he asks Dean if there is anything in the Second Amendment that would preclude a federal law banning handguns. It's past tme we had that discussion about hand guns and assault rifles.
59
In Australia, we had ONE mass shooting incident and we did something about it. You're having multiple incidents per year and saying directly or otherwise that nothing can be done about it except maybe moderate it a bit. Maybe the problem is the relatively new, super-mediocre and infinitely repulsive American Uber-Loser culture of mindlessly accepting endless national disasters and assuming there will never be any solutions?
261
Congress, driven by Republicans, continue to block federal funding for research on gun violence. That should tell you that those people telling you "it's not about the guns" are not being entirely honest. If they are so sure that guns are not the problem, why not allow CDC to research the issue? Why not use federal funding so there will be scientific, empirical answers for the American people?
Could it be they are afraid of the answers?
Could it be they are afraid of the answers?
82
It is time to end the ownership of assault and automatic style weapons.
65
Wake up America. The rest of the world cannot believe that a country that can do so much is one of the most violent societies on the planet. Such violence - citizen against citizen - is endemic, the norm. It is also mad, unfathomable....and so very, very sad.
78
I appreciate the NY Times presenting a statistically factual presentation on how completely out of sync the US is on gun violence compared to the developed world.
47
Put it another way: that is equivalent to all of us in the United States going to an MLB game once a year and each year, one of us would be randomly shot and killed. (about 1 in 30,000). Each year, every year.
If everyone was required to do that and bring their families to the baseball park "Hunger Games" style for a random execution, would you like those odds? Because this is exactly what we are allowing to happen.
If everyone was required to do that and bring their families to the baseball park "Hunger Games" style for a random execution, would you like those odds? Because this is exactly what we are allowing to happen.
42
It would be interesting to see these statistics normalized for non-crime related homicides, i.e. rneithe the victim nor the perpetrator was engaged or affiliated with any criminal activity. The NYT posted an article on gun violence in Chicago over Memorial day weekend and quoted a statistic showing the overwhelming number of the 64 or so shootings were related to criminal activity, gang shootings, retaliation shootings, etc. Even more interesting, was the number of these who had been shot before. (Note to self: getting shot more than once increases the cumulative probability of one of them being fatal; avoid getting shot).
My guess is the US is still high relative to the other G 20 type countries but not the extreme outlier we see in this article.
My guess is the US is still high relative to the other G 20 type countries but not the extreme outlier we see in this article.
11
Why the cutoff with income? Is it that the data is bad, or do poorer countries have more gun violence per capita than rich countries? If the latter, that would be interesting to see: it provides insight to know if the U.S. has the violence characteristics of a poorer country.
9
A kid born to a non-wealthy family in America is nothing. In more peaceful, stable societies, there is an established class structure into which people are born and they are not necessarily expected to rise above their social standing. Here, half of all the boys, and now girls, grow up thinking that, some day, they might be president of the U.S. "Getting ahead" (of others) is the American way.
In France, the aspiration is to get a job with what is called an indefinite contract, meaning one is likely to be employed by the same company for the rest of one's life. In Germany, people take jobs and never expect to leave them. What most people want is a good, stable job, the ability to have a family, long annual vacations and to socialize with friends throughout life.
How does this relate to violence? We are, first, an inherently violent nation made more so by the lack of social stability. Employment here is "at will", meaning fired at any time. Someone who loses a job for six months can lose their home, wind up with no credit rating (influencing the chance of getting another job) and often divorced, too. We are a society too much on the edge, too much under pressure, lacking stabilizing forces and institutions.
The lack of structure and the need to prove oneself are also a source of energy and creativity. People disrespected want to get respect and companionship and that means money. When they can't get it, people crack. The story ends where it began: they are nothing.
In France, the aspiration is to get a job with what is called an indefinite contract, meaning one is likely to be employed by the same company for the rest of one's life. In Germany, people take jobs and never expect to leave them. What most people want is a good, stable job, the ability to have a family, long annual vacations and to socialize with friends throughout life.
How does this relate to violence? We are, first, an inherently violent nation made more so by the lack of social stability. Employment here is "at will", meaning fired at any time. Someone who loses a job for six months can lose their home, wind up with no credit rating (influencing the chance of getting another job) and often divorced, too. We are a society too much on the edge, too much under pressure, lacking stabilizing forces and institutions.
The lack of structure and the need to prove oneself are also a source of energy and creativity. People disrespected want to get respect and companionship and that means money. When they can't get it, people crack. The story ends where it began: they are nothing.
70
All very salient points made in this article but where is the chart showing how much more Freedom we have than other developed democracies? I'm asking because I have been led to believe that thanks to guns I have more Freedom than those in other democracies. Isn't the US of A a 'freedom outlier'?
Was it George Washington, or Thomas Jefferson, who said, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."? Oh wait, nevermind. It was Mao Tse-Tung who said that.
Was it George Washington, or Thomas Jefferson, who said, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."? Oh wait, nevermind. It was Mao Tse-Tung who said that.
28
In this country the right to bear arms seems to be more sacred than right to live. My right to kill you is more important than your right to have a peaceful, happy life.
Trump says ban muslims but when it comes to banning guns , hey when has banning solved any problem ! The hypocrisy and two-faced attitude is so appalling so as to be immune to satire. And this is the man that a major political party in supposedly the richest nation in the world has nominated to be president.
Trump says ban muslims but when it comes to banning guns , hey when has banning solved any problem ! The hypocrisy and two-faced attitude is so appalling so as to be immune to satire. And this is the man that a major political party in supposedly the richest nation in the world has nominated to be president.
41
"“For too long in this society, we have celebrated unrestrained individualism over common community. For too long as a nation, we have been lulled by the anthem of self-interest." Joe Biden
Do you, all law abiding weapon owners, read him and give up your guns so that the powerful stand of the NRA and representative in Congress, is irrevocably weakened?
Do you, all law abiding weapon owners, read him and give up your guns so that the powerful stand of the NRA and representative in Congress, is irrevocably weakened?
14
Thanks to the NRA and the corrupt lawmakers in their pockets - and some not so learned right-wing judges on the SCOTUS who constantly misinterprete the 2nd Amendment -, we are proudly NUMBER ONE of all advanced nations in gun death.
40
As a U.S. citizen not of the one percent I feel like an idiot for having children. I love them, but what kind of world have I brought them into? Certainly I didn't realize how much gun violence would spike over the last couple of decades. I worry that living in constant fear of unpredictable attack is becoming normalized for this generation. What have we done?
25
The difference between the US and other countries is utterly shocking. The graph shows it most clearly. Why can't we have a real conversation on the issue? I don't begrudge my hunter friends their right to hunting rifles and might even be able to support handguns if they were uniformly regulated & registered, but why does an American have a right to a semi-automatic, military-style gun? Nobody hunts with an AK-47, AR-15, or an M-16!
Also, why do you need to be at least 16 (up to 18) to drive, have to attend driver's training, take a test, and renew that license periodically, but nothing it required to own a gun? At least require the guns to have a ballistic fingerprinted in every case, have universal registration of firearms subject to jail time as a felony if the firearm is not registered (and works), and make it a felony to fail to report a stolen weapon.
Lawful gun users could not claim they are being deprived of their right to possession if it is simply being regulated like every other sane country.
Also, why do you need to be at least 16 (up to 18) to drive, have to attend driver's training, take a test, and renew that license periodically, but nothing it required to own a gun? At least require the guns to have a ballistic fingerprinted in every case, have universal registration of firearms subject to jail time as a felony if the firearm is not registered (and works), and make it a felony to fail to report a stolen weapon.
Lawful gun users could not claim they are being deprived of their right to possession if it is simply being regulated like every other sane country.
53
It is all the guns. To argue otherwise is stupidity.
31
As I read the passionate arguments posted below, I am struck by how easily choice of weapon is confused with causal factor in the aftermath of Orlando.
Hillary Clinton today declared that a ban on assault weapons will keep assault weapons out of terrorists' hands. Many here believe the same. May Congress grant your wish, and soon.
My aim is Machiavellian. The truth is that California had a ban on assault weapons in place long before December 2015. That didn't stop ISIS terrorists from procuring assault weapons and killing 14 Americans in San Bernardino. Europe bans assault weapons. That didn't stop ISIS terrorists from procuring assault weapons, including AK-47's, and Soviet 7.62mm ammunition that can't legally be purchased anywhere in western Europe.
An odd thing about terrorists is that they don't recognize, care for, or respect our laws. They will procure weapons and execute terrorist attacks.
I want the assault weapons ban because when it fails to stop terrorist attacks, then perhaps, our president and politicians like Chuck Schumer will no longer be allowed to confuse weapon of choice with primary cause.
The root cause of Orlando isn't assault weapons, but radical Islamic terrorism. Deal with that. Put that on the table. Put together a coherent strategy to take down ISIS. That's root cause. That's what I want from our next president. Because we aren't getting it from our current one.
Hillary Clinton today declared that a ban on assault weapons will keep assault weapons out of terrorists' hands. Many here believe the same. May Congress grant your wish, and soon.
My aim is Machiavellian. The truth is that California had a ban on assault weapons in place long before December 2015. That didn't stop ISIS terrorists from procuring assault weapons and killing 14 Americans in San Bernardino. Europe bans assault weapons. That didn't stop ISIS terrorists from procuring assault weapons, including AK-47's, and Soviet 7.62mm ammunition that can't legally be purchased anywhere in western Europe.
An odd thing about terrorists is that they don't recognize, care for, or respect our laws. They will procure weapons and execute terrorist attacks.
I want the assault weapons ban because when it fails to stop terrorist attacks, then perhaps, our president and politicians like Chuck Schumer will no longer be allowed to confuse weapon of choice with primary cause.
The root cause of Orlando isn't assault weapons, but radical Islamic terrorism. Deal with that. Put that on the table. Put together a coherent strategy to take down ISIS. That's root cause. That's what I want from our next president. Because we aren't getting it from our current one.
5
This article says "gunshot homicides totaled 11,961 in 2014, according to the F.B.I." and a link to the FBI website was included.
When I click on the link, it takes me to https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the... . The data presented at that link is total homocides, not gun homocides.
The data available at https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the... shows that there were actually 8,124 firearm related murders in 2014.
That's still a grim reality, but just wanted to point out the miss citation.
When I click on the link, it takes me to https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the... . The data presented at that link is total homocides, not gun homocides.
The data available at https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the... shows that there were actually 8,124 firearm related murders in 2014.
That's still a grim reality, but just wanted to point out the miss citation.
8
As a Canadian I can only think gun control is primarily responsible for the difference in gun death rates in my country and the US. Our countries share much common history, the same land mass, similar pluralistic societies and a respect for democracy and the rule of law. When south of the border I am only recognized as a Canadian when people notice a few variances in vocabulary and pronunciation. It is painful to watch the reaction to each mass killing. People are quick to offer "thoughts and prayers" but loathe to deal with the restriction of sales of handguns and assault rifles. The media, with the possible exception of the NYT, seem particularly weak after these horrendous tragedies. They do not seem to have the nerve to hold the NRA, the gun lobby and their congressional lackeys to account.
215
I do think that the gun rights discussion has been hijacked by people who are not really thinking and feeling. We have a death problem. People are dying every day from accidental shootings, murder, and every few months, mass murder. It is a problem. Other countries that are comparable to us do not have the same number of deaths. It is a problem to be solved. Doing nothing sacrifices too many people. We can solve this problem. We do it for every other issue. We can do it here and we will. will.
16
Comparing overall intentional homicide rates is more instructive, assuming you are more concerned with ends than means in these matters. The US is still rather high, but the differences are not nearly as stark.
Compare the murder rates for Minnesota with Manitoba, Utah with Saskatchewan, Oregon with Alberta, Washington with BC. Prepare to be surprised.
Very high murder rates in the US are geographically and demographically focused.
Compare the murder rates for Minnesota with Manitoba, Utah with Saskatchewan, Oregon with Alberta, Washington with BC. Prepare to be surprised.
Very high murder rates in the US are geographically and demographically focused.
7
Yes of course the US is in a different world. We are bigger, much more diverse, with more criminals and freedom. When you are free you are free to do stupid, bad things.
5
Nothing is going to change. Our paranoic fear of the government oppressing us far outweighs any possible reform of gun laws. Sorry.
5
Would love to see a public discourse on the second amendment and an explanation of why the NRA and their supporters ignore the part about the well-regulated militia. Somehow, this has morphed into the right of individuals to have guns. Was this however the original intent?
“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”
“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”
21
You can show all the charts and stats you want. Until congress decides not to bow to the powerful gun lobby or people get fed up enough to vote them out of office, nothing will change.
30
As a civil society, we MUST maintain hope and determination for changes to improve and make our society a safer and better place. Maintain faith...if we want change, vote for a candidate determined to work for it, and that appears to be Ms Clinton in 2016. Otherwise, these statistics will only get worse.
8
You are only comparing with first world countries. This is not fair. How about Mexico? Uganda? Let's see where USA stand in the real world.
2
In America a pro-NRA person can purchase a surplus Sherman tank and shells, park it in the backyard and shoot anyone that enters under the protection of the 2nd amendment.
In America an anti-NRA Hollywood or Silicon Valley person can produce the most violent imaginable films and video games solely for profit under the protection of the 1st amendment.
In America an anti-NRA Hollywood or Silicon Valley person can produce the most violent imaginable films and video games solely for profit under the protection of the 1st amendment.
8
The biggest issue here is that the USA reached a point of no-return: the fire weapons industry simply gives too many jobs and produces too many wealth for the country for it to stop or even reduce it's production. If the USA stops producing weapons, the majority of it's industry simply ceases to exist.
That's why no American president or politician has the courage to actually act for gun control.
That's why no American president or politician has the courage to actually act for gun control.
10
According to the Left, it's apparently racist to compare gun deaths internationally when taking into account homicides committed by blacks, Hispanics and other minorities, the demographic groups that make up a majority of gun deaths in the United States. Without those groups, the U.S. gun-murder rate would still remain above other Western countries, but the gap would be markedly less so.
Why is that relevant the Left asks. Because by examining who's committing the majority of the gun murders in the United States, we might be able to begin to solve the problem. Besides the nightly black-on-black mayhem in inner-city America, minorities, per capita, commit the most gun massacres.
Why is that relevant the Left asks. Because by examining who's committing the majority of the gun murders in the United States, we might be able to begin to solve the problem. Besides the nightly black-on-black mayhem in inner-city America, minorities, per capita, commit the most gun massacres.
7
The second amendment provides gun ownership rights for citizens who are part of militias. That means citizens who are employed by the Department of Defense, Police Departments, and any other organization that could reasonably be called a "militia". I don't think the politicians who wrote the amendment intended for any citizen, any where, to own any kind of weapon they wanted.
26
Years ago, my father made a point to me that I've never forgotten. If something keeps occurring in the life of an individual or a country it's because they enjoy it. No matter how damaging or painful that thing may be, if it recurs, if no effort is made to stop it, then that's because it is deeply, resolutely loved.
America loves gun deaths. The country loves it. The violence. The drama. The crocodile tears afterwards and false piety the deaths elicit. All of this is loved, I'm sorry to say.
It's loved and because it's loved, it's not going to stop. They're going to come faster and faster. Now there's a massacre every month or two. Soon it'll be every month. Then every few weeks. Then every week. Because when you love something so terribly, terribly deeply -- well, you just cannot get enough of it.
America loves gun deaths. The country loves it. The violence. The drama. The crocodile tears afterwards and false piety the deaths elicit. All of this is loved, I'm sorry to say.
It's loved and because it's loved, it's not going to stop. They're going to come faster and faster. Now there's a massacre every month or two. Soon it'll be every month. Then every few weeks. Then every week. Because when you love something so terribly, terribly deeply -- well, you just cannot get enough of it.
47
It is critical to frame the resistance to sensible regulation of arms in the context of those who fan the flames of hatred of the government. The right wingers encourage millions who harbor bizarre, conspiratorial fantasies that the federal government is out to get them and that it is only their blessed guns that are keeping the jack-booted thugs at bay.
This fear mongering and the guns it produces don't protect anyone from an overzealous government. They serve only to keep right wingers in office and the campaign contributions and NRA endorsements rolling in. Oh yes, and they also indirectly produce thousands of dead, innocent people every year.
This fear mongering and the guns it produces don't protect anyone from an overzealous government. They serve only to keep right wingers in office and the campaign contributions and NRA endorsements rolling in. Oh yes, and they also indirectly produce thousands of dead, innocent people every year.
29
Most gun deaths in the U.S. are white men committing suicide. Next comes men killing other men. Then, men killing women. The problem is twofold: Guns. And men. We can't eliminate one, so we must eliminate the other.
30
According to the FBI's 2014 statistics, your argument is simply false, Moi.
1
What about the massive (and rapidly increasing) mental, emotional, and psychological (not only economic) damage being done to people and families in need by bought-and-paid-for politicians who keep cutting federal and state budgets of money needed for the poor, so the rich can become more rich and put their money in tax havens. The greed and incompetence of those who are in charge of programs that are supposed to help people in need is a disgrace. This is what happens when you have people who do what their "money-masters" tell them to do in leadership positions in government who prove on a daily basis that they are not leaders.
11
Guns in the Land of the Free also played a vital part in enslaving and keeping subject an entire people — men, women and children shipped across the Atlantic in chains and forced to toil to the end of their days for their white masters and white mistresses.
Truly, what a wonderful, magnanimous and benevolent group indeed were white Americans when America was great.
In 2016, many of the male descendants of those once enslaved by their white overlords, free now, free at last to live in the grim and blighted housing projects, the concrete jungles of America's cities, make free use of handguns, the so-called Friday night specials, to wage war between gangs over inner-city territories and control of the illicit drug trade, to settle disputes over debts, to avenge perceived insults and to preempt threats from rivals, adversaries and enemies.
Truly, what a wonderful, magnanimous and benevolent group indeed were white Americans when America was great.
In 2016, many of the male descendants of those once enslaved by their white overlords, free now, free at last to live in the grim and blighted housing projects, the concrete jungles of America's cities, make free use of handguns, the so-called Friday night specials, to wage war between gangs over inner-city territories and control of the illicit drug trade, to settle disputes over debts, to avenge perceived insults and to preempt threats from rivals, adversaries and enemies.
13
It is long past time to repeal the second amendment. Repeal in itself will not stop the sale of illegal weapons, but it will begin to change an attitude. All assault weapons should be declared illegal. The NRA should be listed as a terrorist organization.
47
No repeal. You need, seriously need, to read and learn the real meaning of the 2nd Amendment. Unfortunately we have been brainwashed by the NRA with their perverted view of the 2nd. No repeal, just a recapture of our own Constitution! Much easier than a repeal.
1
Thank God for Hillary Clinton and what I hope will be the coming wave of Democrats in Congress. Not to slight Obama who has done everything he could do. I have hope for the first time in years, but nothing will bring these lives back-- lives, hearts, families crushed by American's poor desperate machismo. In their memory, may we expunge guns from this nation's cabinets and consciousness forever.
20
The madness will stop when, and only when, campaign finance reform is implemented .
31
I agree. There should be a public source of funding so all candidates are on a level playing field. The biggest indictment of the current system is the two candidates we're stuck with this November.
2
This is all meaningless unless you consider how much money is spent by the NRA. and its allies. That figure probably equates to what some countries spend in educating their citizens.
25
I've looked at some more of the recent comments here, attacking the owning and possession of automatic and semi-automatic assault rifles, such as the AK-47 and AR-15, etc.
They say no one has the right to own such -- not for hunting, hobby or self-protection. They are only for warfare.
True, that. Yet what those critics don't seem to realize is that is *precisely* why many in the NRA want those rifles in their possession -- or the right to buy them.
They want to be able to "wage war" (a rebellion, a revolution) against our own government, if the government becomes too "forceful" in dealing with the rights of those gun-owners and their libertarian ideas.
Again, this is who we are as a nation (in many ways). We were born out of such a rebellion and revolution. This attitude is still in the minds of many men in our country -- esp in the South, and other rural areas.
They say no one has the right to own such -- not for hunting, hobby or self-protection. They are only for warfare.
True, that. Yet what those critics don't seem to realize is that is *precisely* why many in the NRA want those rifles in their possession -- or the right to buy them.
They want to be able to "wage war" (a rebellion, a revolution) against our own government, if the government becomes too "forceful" in dealing with the rights of those gun-owners and their libertarian ideas.
Again, this is who we are as a nation (in many ways). We were born out of such a rebellion and revolution. This attitude is still in the minds of many men in our country -- esp in the South, and other rural areas.
31
Well here's the faulty assumption: "This level of violence makes the United States an extreme outlier when measured against the experience of other advanced countries."
America can no longer claim to be an advanced country when metrics such as social services, government corruption, education, wealth disparity, healthcare, violent crime, etc. indicate otherwise. Being in the company of Mexico and El Salvador, the two countries topping the list in gun death, albeit by a vast margin, is rather fitting. The U.S. can no longer claim first world status.
America can no longer claim to be an advanced country when metrics such as social services, government corruption, education, wealth disparity, healthcare, violent crime, etc. indicate otherwise. Being in the company of Mexico and El Salvador, the two countries topping the list in gun death, albeit by a vast margin, is rather fitting. The U.S. can no longer claim first world status.
43
A more meaningful comparison would be the number of people, per capita, killed in homicides of all kinds. We are just a more violent country than most. And if you are including terror gun crimes in these numbers, then the data from other nations should include bombings, aircraft bombings and intentional suicide crashes.
3
Don't think so--the debate here is about easy availability of guns, not a laundry list of various ills.
3
No Constitutional amendment can stand on it's own, without being in interpreted in context with the rest of the Constitution.
The guarantees of due process in the 14th and 15th amendments clearly nullify the idea of the unlimited free use of guns by citizens against other citizens in peacetime when there is no legitimate overthrowing of an oppressive government in process.
The guarantees of due process in the 14th and 15th amendments clearly nullify the idea of the unlimited free use of guns by citizens against other citizens in peacetime when there is no legitimate overthrowing of an oppressive government in process.
27
The 2nd Amendment does not guarantee a right to shoot people. There are criminal laws against that.
Actually, in the context of the times in which it was written, the 2nd Amendment was not to allow the overthrow of our own Governments. Rather, it was to have an armed citizenry in the event of foreign invasion (Canada was still very British). And the Militia was not to rebel against our own governments. Rather, it was a force to be called out to put down revolts and actions against the State. Research Shay's Rebellion, where the Massachusetts Militia was called out to put down Shay's farmers, rebelling against court actions to foreclose on property on which money was owed.
Actually, in the context of the times in which it was written, the 2nd Amendment was not to allow the overthrow of our own Governments. Rather, it was to have an armed citizenry in the event of foreign invasion (Canada was still very British). And the Militia was not to rebel against our own governments. Rather, it was a force to be called out to put down revolts and actions against the State. Research Shay's Rebellion, where the Massachusetts Militia was called out to put down Shay's farmers, rebelling against court actions to foreclose on property on which money was owed.
15
You are correct.
I think this article, sums this up nicely:
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/orlando-shooting-for-republicans-its-easie...
This is was written by a reporter from The Sydney Morning Hearld. This allows Americans to see what is happening in this country, through the eyes of a foreign correspondent. Mr. O'Malley has been reporting on the United States for years and does offer a great insight.
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/orlando-shooting-for-republicans-its-easie...
This is was written by a reporter from The Sydney Morning Hearld. This allows Americans to see what is happening in this country, through the eyes of a foreign correspondent. Mr. O'Malley has been reporting on the United States for years and does offer a great insight.
16
Two historical notes often left out of the 2nd Amendment debate is that the "well regulated militia's" referred to armed local efforts to seize more land from the Indian's regardless of treaty limitations and to require armed slave patrols in the south. Both rash, greedy expansionists and slave owners worried that the federal government might place limits on their efforts, hence the "right to bear arms" and the limitation on the the government to infringe on that right.
So goes American history. It was more violent, callous, racist and greedy than we were ever taught in school. Having sown these seeds we now reap the whirlwind.
So goes American history. It was more violent, callous, racist and greedy than we were ever taught in school. Having sown these seeds we now reap the whirlwind.
26
Sadly, the majority of Americans seem to love their guns more than they love other Americans. And have a distorted, perverted understanding of their precious Second Amendment.
48
The National Rifle Association is an aider and abettor to terrorist organizations and to individuals whose minds have deteriorated. Until the NRA is disbanded the carnage on the streets of the U.S. will continue.
28
It is true that the US rates arae high by world standards. But what are you going to DO about it?
And if you guys are busy pretending that Republicans are more dangerous than radical Islamists, exactly how much credibility do you have?
You do not care at all about protecting Americans. All you care about is bashing Republicans.
And that ship is not going to sail any longer.
And if you guys are busy pretending that Republicans are more dangerous than radical Islamists, exactly how much credibility do you have?
You do not care at all about protecting Americans. All you care about is bashing Republicans.
And that ship is not going to sail any longer.
7
"It is true that the US rates arae high by world standards. But what are you going to DO about it?"
To start: Outlaw assault weapons! Build a modern, capable data base to record all firearms purchases in the U.S.! Institute waiting periods for all firearms purchases, and take the hobbles off law enforcement control of illegal sales. Prosecute gun dealers who make illegal sales.
"And if you guys are busy pretending that Republicans are more dangerous than radical Islamists..."
And if you guys are busy pretending that the Constitution mandates that the mentally ill, murderous radical Islamists and other political terrorists, and drug-crazed criminals should be able to buy to assault weapons, exactly how much credibility do YOU have?
"You do not care at all about protecting Americans."
Yeah, right, it's the guys selling assault rifles to radical Islamists and the mentally disturbed who are trying to protect us all. That is, after they make their sales quotas for the year.
"And that ship is not going to sail any longer."
Don't look now: your ship is full of armed psychotics. Sane Americans want to get off before it sinks. Enjoy your cruise.
To start: Outlaw assault weapons! Build a modern, capable data base to record all firearms purchases in the U.S.! Institute waiting periods for all firearms purchases, and take the hobbles off law enforcement control of illegal sales. Prosecute gun dealers who make illegal sales.
"And if you guys are busy pretending that Republicans are more dangerous than radical Islamists..."
And if you guys are busy pretending that the Constitution mandates that the mentally ill, murderous radical Islamists and other political terrorists, and drug-crazed criminals should be able to buy to assault weapons, exactly how much credibility do YOU have?
"You do not care at all about protecting Americans."
Yeah, right, it's the guys selling assault rifles to radical Islamists and the mentally disturbed who are trying to protect us all. That is, after they make their sales quotas for the year.
"And that ship is not going to sail any longer."
Don't look now: your ship is full of armed psychotics. Sane Americans want to get off before it sinks. Enjoy your cruise.
3
From a recent report in the Guardian, murder rate in the UK and Wales overall is 10 per million. 90% committed presumably and not unsurprisingly by methods other than a gun.
The police figures include a 27% rise in “violence against the person” – an extra 198,000 attacks – but this was largely driven by increases in the “violence without injury” sub-category, which rose by 38% or 143,000 incidents.
However, the rise in the murder rate, which the statisticians say is less susceptible to changes in recording practices, is one key indicator that Britain is once again becoming a more violent country.
The murder rate in England and Wales has fallen over the past decade from 16 homicides – which include murders and manslaughters – per million population in 2005 to 10 homicides per million population in 2015.
The police figures include a 27% rise in “violence against the person” – an extra 198,000 attacks – but this was largely driven by increases in the “violence without injury” sub-category, which rose by 38% or 143,000 incidents.
However, the rise in the murder rate, which the statisticians say is less susceptible to changes in recording practices, is one key indicator that Britain is once again becoming a more violent country.
The murder rate in England and Wales has fallen over the past decade from 16 homicides – which include murders and manslaughters – per million population in 2005 to 10 homicides per million population in 2015.
4
Wow. So, they're up to what, 10% of our rates?
No wonder you are concerned.
No wonder you are concerned.
2
True American exceptionalism.
25
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Only the police and the military should have guns. Every gun in civilian hands should be confiscated or repurchased and ground into scrap. The only way to stop gun deaths is to eliminate guns. You can't kill someone with a gun, if you don't have a gun. No one was ever killed with the gun that wasn't there.
35
Good gosh! You're right! While we're at it, no one but the government should enjoy the right to free speech. The problem with folks like you is you think you're smarter with respect to building a nation than our founding fathers. You're not. 2nd Amendment exists for a reason.
1
Even more inexcusable than our failure to pass any adequate legislation limiting the purchase of guns is our prohibition of liability suits against gun manufacturers for the death and destruction their products cause.
26
Thank the coward, money grubbing Republicans & their NRA pals for this. And the Supremes (Kennedy, Roberts, Alito, Thomas and the dead Scalia) for wrongly deciding Heller re: the 2nd Amendment. The blood of thousands is on all of their hands. Common sense will win this battle eventually but it will take a filibuster-proof democratic majority in Congress to get it done.
52
So what is wrong with this country and what do we do? Why do we have such easy access to guns? And why do we have so many angry people who think nothing of taking the lives of others with these guns? Seems to me that we have to solve both of these questions in order to figure out how to make real change in these horrific numbers.
11
"(In the United States)....For men 15 to 29, they (homicides from gun shots) are the third-leading cause of death, after accidents and suicides."
Why do they not include the suicides from guns in this statistic? Both result in avoidable loss of life and paint a more accurate picture of the devastation guns cause. Research has shown that attempted suicides among gun owners or of people living in a home with a gun are exponentially more deadly. Also-how many accidental gun deaths occur?
Among this demographic the actual leading cause of death when more accurately reported may in fact be guns. It will take a full generation of orphaned children and grieving families before we are able to fully understand the impact of the NRA's relentless marketing campaign to keep gun manufacturer's and gun seller's micro economy thriving.
Why do they not include the suicides from guns in this statistic? Both result in avoidable loss of life and paint a more accurate picture of the devastation guns cause. Research has shown that attempted suicides among gun owners or of people living in a home with a gun are exponentially more deadly. Also-how many accidental gun deaths occur?
Among this demographic the actual leading cause of death when more accurately reported may in fact be guns. It will take a full generation of orphaned children and grieving families before we are able to fully understand the impact of the NRA's relentless marketing campaign to keep gun manufacturer's and gun seller's micro economy thriving.
7
My thoughts and prayers go out to the people in our Congress who the American people will vote out as they continue to attack combat assault weapon crimes with only their thoughts and prayers.
6
Just part of the ongoing, grinding loss of moral authority by the United States of America. I blame the Republicans.
15
I'm sure Trump and his ilk will try to say this is madness/killing is driven by terrorism, or whatever appeals to the lowest of the low who are still bedding their assault rifles and claim they are for self-defense. Just admit "I like guns" and let's get guns registered and licensed, like a car, and we'll see these number decrease significantly. Either that or just let the country sink into a morass of its own creation and let people continue to be killed for no reason other than selling more guns.
8
Compare the violent death rates of the last 100 years in the US including war and this country is an island of peace. Admittedly, millions in the other countries were killed by the Americans but that is whole other discussion.
Germany lost 10-15% of its population in WWII, Japan, Russia probably the same. France, England, the Netherlands and all the other peaceful nations had appalling losses in 2 world wars and many smaller ones. Here? Not so much.
Just saying.
Germany lost 10-15% of its population in WWII, Japan, Russia probably the same. France, England, the Netherlands and all the other peaceful nations had appalling losses in 2 world wars and many smaller ones. Here? Not so much.
Just saying.
1
Nice living on a continent protected by thousands of miles of ocean, isn't it?
But hey, let's go back to 1860 and see how we do from there.
But hey, let's go back to 1860 and see how we do from there.
1
The NRA may not be the proximate cause of this heartrending series of mass shootings, but it is certainly the ultimate cause. The huge gun lobby has made it impossible to construct and enact sane, effective laws about what kinds of guns and ammunition may be purchased, who may purchase them, and where and when. The NRA's insistence that guns of every kind be available to anyone and everyone has turned the entire nation into a modern, monstrous version of the Wild West, where too many innocents have been sacrificed to the unbending insistence that the Second Amendment never be challenged. Who in their right mind believes that the Founding Fathers would endorse massacre after massacre of unsuspecting and blameless souls?
Come to think of it, NRA, where is your soul, your sanity, your compassion, your humanity, your patriotism? Whether you own it or not, you are a huge part of the problem, and no part (so far) of a solution to a problem that is a huge danger to the common good. Wake up and acknowledge that there are solutions, and that you can be part of them.
Come to think of it, NRA, where is your soul, your sanity, your compassion, your humanity, your patriotism? Whether you own it or not, you are a huge part of the problem, and no part (so far) of a solution to a problem that is a huge danger to the common good. Wake up and acknowledge that there are solutions, and that you can be part of them.
14
The anti-gun crowd is poorly educated on the issue. Their basic argument is that we have to restrict guns because they are responsible for gun violence. And most believe that they repeatedly lose in Congress because of the NRA. Unfortunately, they don't understand that guns are a huge part of our history. From gun singers who helped bring order to the lawless west to hitmen for organized crime, gun violence has been accepted in the U.S. and even romanticized. Today, most gun violence occurs in black slums. Most Americans don't much care. Getting red in the face and jumping up and down, is a terrible way to try to convince anyone that you're right. Respect for the pro-gun crowd is absolutely essential in order to make progress. Start with an appreciation of history. Address the arguments of the pro-gun crowd respectfully. There simply is no choice. They won Heller and they hold all the cards.
23
"most gun violence occurs in black slums. Most Americans don't much care."
You are wrong. In my world people do care. In my world we do not dismiss violence against other human beings as insignificant because of the color of their skin. History is a funny, slippery thing. What is accepted and romantic at one time becomes loathed and derided by the judgement of future generations. So it will be with your gun culture. This time will be viewed with confusion by our descendants who won't understand the intransigence, the refusal to accept even common sense measures (92% of Americans support extended background checks). They will study the political forces that allowed such brutal massacres to occur, that allowed semi-automatic weapons to kill scores of people, and they will struggle to understand the small-minded, fearful political movement that fueled dark events like Orlando.
You are wrong. In my world people do care. In my world we do not dismiss violence against other human beings as insignificant because of the color of their skin. History is a funny, slippery thing. What is accepted and romantic at one time becomes loathed and derided by the judgement of future generations. So it will be with your gun culture. This time will be viewed with confusion by our descendants who won't understand the intransigence, the refusal to accept even common sense measures (92% of Americans support extended background checks). They will study the political forces that allowed such brutal massacres to occur, that allowed semi-automatic weapons to kill scores of people, and they will struggle to understand the small-minded, fearful political movement that fueled dark events like Orlando.
16
Actually how many people have been shot by the FBI?
As usual in the USA the truth will be hidden.
PS: Understand tha t a few days ago the State Dept warned USA citizen to travel to Europe because of being a dangerous zone. Should not such a warning be published for the USA?
As usual in the USA the truth will be hidden.
PS: Understand tha t a few days ago the State Dept warned USA citizen to travel to Europe because of being a dangerous zone. Should not such a warning be published for the USA?
2
And those NRA puppets the GOP will preach that the answer is more guns and less restrictions on gun ownership!
10
The land of the spree and the home of the crazed
16
To Steve Brown's point, even looking at the overall homicide rate, the US comes squarely in the middle, still well below other rich Western nations. Does that statistic say something fundamental about our culture?
1
Thank you NRA for destroying our nation. Thank you Supreme Court for saying that a Well Regulated Militia is any yahoo that wants to buy a gun.
22
Here's a solution to the shameful lack of gun control in this country. Constitutional originalists claim that the Second Amendment must be interpreted absolutely literally, the way the founding fathers intended it, not infringing the right of the people to keep and bear arms. So let's have Congress pass a law that defines "arms" the way the founders intended: front-loading muskets, etc. The American people can be allowed to have all of those arms that they can find.
11
You want to collect rifles? Fine. You want to own a handgun or two? Fine.
But semi-automatics?? There is NO good reason for ANY private individual to be able to own such weapons. Period.
Semi-automatics are not for hunting. They are not for 'protection'. They are expressly for the purpose of inflicting massive carnage in seconds.
How can the NRA and their supporters possibly not understand the difference???
But semi-automatics?? There is NO good reason for ANY private individual to be able to own such weapons. Period.
Semi-automatics are not for hunting. They are not for 'protection'. They are expressly for the purpose of inflicting massive carnage in seconds.
How can the NRA and their supporters possibly not understand the difference???
33
Speaking of not knowing the difference, Lisa, most hand guns and hunting rifles are semi-automatic.
3
It appears that most of the shootings are inner city gang related violence, not hate massacres.
3
It's that American Exceptionalism we keep hearing about.
6
The gun advocates call it "the price of freedom." The problem is that they export the terrible price onto the innocent public. i would be far more willing to accept the "gun rights" if the gun owners also carried the responsibility of paying for the mayhem, morbidity and mortality that guns cause.
It's easy to do the arithmetic to show that an "average" handgun costs America several thousands of dollars per year in harm. this just averages the total costs (reasonably well known) divided by the number of handguns thought to be in circulation ... including those in criminal hands ... but it is a shocking number.
Let's require handguns and semi-auto rifles to be insured, under strict liability, for the damage they can cause. Let's go through the calculation for Mateen and Orlando:
50 dead at 4 M$ each = 200 M$
50 shot at 1 M$ (average) each = 50 M$
cost of police services = ???
You want an assault rifle ? What do you think the liability insurance will cost you?
Bear in mind that shootings like this are rare ... but sadly not that rare.
It's easy to do the arithmetic to show that an "average" handgun costs America several thousands of dollars per year in harm. this just averages the total costs (reasonably well known) divided by the number of handguns thought to be in circulation ... including those in criminal hands ... but it is a shocking number.
Let's require handguns and semi-auto rifles to be insured, under strict liability, for the damage they can cause. Let's go through the calculation for Mateen and Orlando:
50 dead at 4 M$ each = 200 M$
50 shot at 1 M$ (average) each = 50 M$
cost of police services = ???
You want an assault rifle ? What do you think the liability insurance will cost you?
Bear in mind that shootings like this are rare ... but sadly not that rare.
11
If we eliminate the threat from radicalized islam, we can really cover every corner with assault rifiles and double the domestic homocide rate.
Mr. Trump would be fine with that.
Mr. Trump would be fine with that.
2
What's more: guns don't keep people safe. Numerous studies (conducted despite the NRA-led prohibition of CDC research into gun violence) have found that gun ownership is positively associated with risk of death by firearm:
Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, Rushforth NB. et al. Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home. N Engl J Med. 1993;329(15):1084–1091.
Bailey JE, Kellermann AL, Somes G, Banton JG, Rivara F, Rushforth NB. Risk factors for violent death of women in the home. Arch Intern Med. 1997;157(7):777–782.
Cummings P, Koepsell TD, Grossman DC, Savarino J, Thompson RS. The association between the purchase of a handgun and homicide or suicide. Am J Public Health. 1997;87(6):974–978.
Siegel M1, Negussie Y, Vanture S, Pleskunas J, Ross CS, King C 3rd. The relationship between gun ownership and stranger and nonstranger firearm homicide rates in the United States, 1981-2010. Am J Public Health. 2014 Oct;104(10):1912-9. doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2014.302042. Epub 2014 Aug 14.
Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, Rushforth NB. et al. Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home. N Engl J Med. 1993;329(15):1084–1091.
Bailey JE, Kellermann AL, Somes G, Banton JG, Rivara F, Rushforth NB. Risk factors for violent death of women in the home. Arch Intern Med. 1997;157(7):777–782.
Cummings P, Koepsell TD, Grossman DC, Savarino J, Thompson RS. The association between the purchase of a handgun and homicide or suicide. Am J Public Health. 1997;87(6):974–978.
Siegel M1, Negussie Y, Vanture S, Pleskunas J, Ross CS, King C 3rd. The relationship between gun ownership and stranger and nonstranger firearm homicide rates in the United States, 1981-2010. Am J Public Health. 2014 Oct;104(10):1912-9. doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2014.302042. Epub 2014 Aug 14.
6
Why are GOP Senators afraid to let folks bring assault rifles into the visitors' gallery? Probably the same reason that almost all of them are afraid to serve in the military.
19
In Japan they like knives and charcoal gas. In India they prefer poison.
Yup. Human nature is violent and murderous, worldwide. Let's make the expression of our common humanity as easy and lethal as possible.
1
The dishonest comparison of "Homicides" to "Gun Deaths"
2/3 of all "Gun Deaths" are suicides.
Try comparing apples to apples.
2/3 of all "Gun Deaths" are suicides.
Try comparing apples to apples.
6
The article is very specific in comparing "gun homicides."
2
Try reading. Third from last paragraph says "We focused on the rates of gun homicides; the overall rate of gun deaths is substantially higher, because suicides make up a majority of gun deaths in the United States and are also higher than in other developed countries."
3
This article is a revelation to me. Imagine if we in the US could expect to be shot only about as often as being struck by lightning (as in Japan). Well, I can dream, can't I?
3
Americans love death, why argue with the evidence ? How many Spaghetti Westerns did we practically memorize ? Killers on TV are in every episode of dozens of cop serials, and these programs run for years, often longer than 10 years. As a kid I played with toy guns you couldn't tell were toys. Now we have outlawed such harmless toys but we use video games with blood and gore to better experience the real killers experience. We abort children by the millions legally but made toy guns illegal if they look too realistic. America is a perverse society these days, so why wring your hands over it ?
2
It's time to repeal the second amendment. Period.
Not as draconian as gunistas may think. By eliminating SCOTUS from the equation, we deal with gun ownership like any other item. There is no constitutional guarantee to own a car, but most everyone does and ownership comes with myriad restrictions and responsibilities. We don't have formula one racing cars tearing up our streets and we don't need high capacity, semi-automatic firearms out in the general public. We regulate the possession of automatic firearms, RPG's, bazookas, tanks, nuclear weapons..... limitations agreed to by all (most?). Why can't we have a reasoned debate on where the line should fall.
Absent a total ban, in the spirit of our founding fathers, I'm all for single shot, muzzle loading muskets and I could be persuaded to include flintlock dueling pistols. Barring that, personal ownership of handguns could be restricted to the current version of the old west six-shooter with a revolving chamber to be reloaded one round at a time. Any firearm that survives the cut, like cars, to be registered, for a fee, with required renewal each year. Anyone found with an unregistered firearm to be subject to serious fines and imprisonment.
Such a program would not eliminate gun violence (no law eliminates crime), but, over time, through enforcement and attrition, we may be able to join the rest of the civilized world where gun atrocities are a rare abomination not an accepted consequence of a gun centered culture.
Not as draconian as gunistas may think. By eliminating SCOTUS from the equation, we deal with gun ownership like any other item. There is no constitutional guarantee to own a car, but most everyone does and ownership comes with myriad restrictions and responsibilities. We don't have formula one racing cars tearing up our streets and we don't need high capacity, semi-automatic firearms out in the general public. We regulate the possession of automatic firearms, RPG's, bazookas, tanks, nuclear weapons..... limitations agreed to by all (most?). Why can't we have a reasoned debate on where the line should fall.
Absent a total ban, in the spirit of our founding fathers, I'm all for single shot, muzzle loading muskets and I could be persuaded to include flintlock dueling pistols. Barring that, personal ownership of handguns could be restricted to the current version of the old west six-shooter with a revolving chamber to be reloaded one round at a time. Any firearm that survives the cut, like cars, to be registered, for a fee, with required renewal each year. Anyone found with an unregistered firearm to be subject to serious fines and imprisonment.
Such a program would not eliminate gun violence (no law eliminates crime), but, over time, through enforcement and attrition, we may be able to join the rest of the civilized world where gun atrocities are a rare abomination not an accepted consequence of a gun centered culture.
143
You don't have to repeal it, you simply have to include the "militia" reference when interpreting it.
Frankly, liberal that I am, I do not advocate the elimination of guns, just better regulation. And there is no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle.
Frankly, liberal that I am, I do not advocate the elimination of guns, just better regulation. And there is no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle.
46
All semi-automatic weapons should be banned. Only revolvers and single shot pistols and rifles should be legal. Ownership should also be much more restrictive. A drunk driver can lose his/her right to drive. American society has shown that it isn't responsible enough to own certain types of weapons. The gun industry's strategy has been to flood the country with all types of guns and to brainwash people into thinking that they need to be armed. We need to look at what other countries do with their gun laws.
24
Only muzzle loading long guns.
1
The United States of Guns.
I say every time it happens that the sniveling cowards in Congress and the reprehensible gun loving Republicans will not change unless 10 million of us march on the NRA HQ in Northern Virginia.
Someone or some organization with the bucks and the influence to get that going needs to do that.
Short of 10 million people on the march, 33,000 people in the United States will die ever year, every year, every year from being killed by guns.
No one needs a gun. No one. They should all be outlawed. And owning one should get you 10 years in prison. But that's not happening and neither is even the most modest gun control until 10 million people get on the road on the same day, camp outside Congress and congressional district offices, invade hostile congressional office and take charge of their own fate.
Expect probably two or three more of these this year. But don't expect anything to change in the United States of Guns. And don't point fingers at other people. You want to point a finger, point it at the person in the mirror because if you are pro-gun then you killed those people Saturday night, yes you with the gun in your house, you did that; and if you are anti-gun and don't start trying to organize a 10 million citizen march for gun control then it's your fault too.
So whose fault is it Americans? It's our fault. All of us. We all pulled the trigger.
I say every time it happens that the sniveling cowards in Congress and the reprehensible gun loving Republicans will not change unless 10 million of us march on the NRA HQ in Northern Virginia.
Someone or some organization with the bucks and the influence to get that going needs to do that.
Short of 10 million people on the march, 33,000 people in the United States will die ever year, every year, every year from being killed by guns.
No one needs a gun. No one. They should all be outlawed. And owning one should get you 10 years in prison. But that's not happening and neither is even the most modest gun control until 10 million people get on the road on the same day, camp outside Congress and congressional district offices, invade hostile congressional office and take charge of their own fate.
Expect probably two or three more of these this year. But don't expect anything to change in the United States of Guns. And don't point fingers at other people. You want to point a finger, point it at the person in the mirror because if you are pro-gun then you killed those people Saturday night, yes you with the gun in your house, you did that; and if you are anti-gun and don't start trying to organize a 10 million citizen march for gun control then it's your fault too.
So whose fault is it Americans? It's our fault. All of us. We all pulled the trigger.
18
Fire arms did not come along until toward the end of the fourteenth century. By that time, Europe, Asia and even colonial Africa were ordered countries ruled by Kings and Queens. America was a won with guns
By the time we got to the Western territories we were know as gun slingers.They became necessary for protection and subjection of Native Americans. We grew up a gun culture. We won this country with guns. We gained it by fighting the despotic George III with The Second Amendment was all about that first got to free us from the unfair king. The right to take up arms and form militis. If George the III had A K 47s and we hand rifles and handguns guns we was not be the United States of America. The government must have the most powerful gun technology and therefore it's Pepe must have the right too on gas it's government ever fecides to be dispotic. Have we learned nothing from Bernis Sanders lectures on the one percent who is put to get us ?
By the time we got to the Western territories we were know as gun slingers.They became necessary for protection and subjection of Native Americans. We grew up a gun culture. We won this country with guns. We gained it by fighting the despotic George III with The Second Amendment was all about that first got to free us from the unfair king. The right to take up arms and form militis. If George the III had A K 47s and we hand rifles and handguns guns we was not be the United States of America. The government must have the most powerful gun technology and therefore it's Pepe must have the right too on gas it's government ever fecides to be dispotic. Have we learned nothing from Bernis Sanders lectures on the one percent who is put to get us ?
4
Andrea, I'll put down your many cases of illogical grammar to haste, but in your capsule history you ignored at least one point. In the so-called Wild West, guns were a tool that was treated with caution. Town limits were often declared gun-free zones and guns were a no-no in the local saloon.
5
Have we learned anything? Not spelling, apparently.
1
It's time someone took on the argument about good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns, as per Trump today.
The good guy with a gun at Pulse, an off-duty officer, soon withdrew.
But let's look at the general scenario Trump & the NRA favor: people entering night-clubs, theatres, churches or stores should be armed to match fire power with a possible bad-guy.
Question: you're a greeter at WalMart, say. You see two or three macho individuals per day entering with an AR-15 type weapon. How do you know when one of them intends to do harm?
What do you with your weapon if you go to a club for a good time? Leave it at a coat-check? Carry it around with you on the dance-floor? Would the brave Mr. Trump let anyone carry an assault weapon into Mar-A-Lago, especially if he's on the premises? Oh. I forgot, he ejects people from his presence if they talk back to him.
This good-guy-with-a-gun argument deserves scorn and ridicule, but not even the most outspoken anti-gun-violence spokespeople have gone that far.
As the article points out, the one thing that makes the US the Exceptional Nation is its addiction to firearms. Yes, there are legitimate reasons for people to own handguns and hunting weapons (which should be subject broadly to similar requirements as motor vehicles). But there's no excuse for AR-15 type weapons to be made and sold to the public. Even when the Supremes affirmed the individual right to bear arms, they said it was not unconditional.
The good guy with a gun at Pulse, an off-duty officer, soon withdrew.
But let's look at the general scenario Trump & the NRA favor: people entering night-clubs, theatres, churches or stores should be armed to match fire power with a possible bad-guy.
Question: you're a greeter at WalMart, say. You see two or three macho individuals per day entering with an AR-15 type weapon. How do you know when one of them intends to do harm?
What do you with your weapon if you go to a club for a good time? Leave it at a coat-check? Carry it around with you on the dance-floor? Would the brave Mr. Trump let anyone carry an assault weapon into Mar-A-Lago, especially if he's on the premises? Oh. I forgot, he ejects people from his presence if they talk back to him.
This good-guy-with-a-gun argument deserves scorn and ridicule, but not even the most outspoken anti-gun-violence spokespeople have gone that far.
As the article points out, the one thing that makes the US the Exceptional Nation is its addiction to firearms. Yes, there are legitimate reasons for people to own handguns and hunting weapons (which should be subject broadly to similar requirements as motor vehicles). But there's no excuse for AR-15 type weapons to be made and sold to the public. Even when the Supremes affirmed the individual right to bear arms, they said it was not unconditional.
46
I totally agree....and the argument that one keeps weapons unloaded and locked away is laughable: here I am, being invaded/attacked, and I have to say "give me a minute, I have to unlock 2 cabinets/safes and load the gun. Ok, now you can come in so I can shoot you!"
2
Regarding gun deaths in Canada, the article missed a point - although it does not affect its conclusions. That point is gun smuggling across the US-Canada border.
Most of the smuggled guns come to major Canadian cities. According to Toronto Star, "In 2009, Toronto police seized 861 crime guns in the city, at least 70 per cent of which are smuggled in from the U.S. A crime gun is any gun that is illegally possessed or has an obliterated serial number, or is seized in relation to a criminal act, such as a shooting."
So if there was no easy availability of illegal guns due to proximity of US border, then in all probability the gun deaths in Canada would have been FAR less and at par with most Northern European countries.
Most of the smuggled guns come to major Canadian cities. According to Toronto Star, "In 2009, Toronto police seized 861 crime guns in the city, at least 70 per cent of which are smuggled in from the U.S. A crime gun is any gun that is illegally possessed or has an obliterated serial number, or is seized in relation to a criminal act, such as a shooting."
So if there was no easy availability of illegal guns due to proximity of US border, then in all probability the gun deaths in Canada would have been FAR less and at par with most Northern European countries.
15
"The CDC isn't allowed to pursue many kinds of gun research due to the lobbying strength of the National Rifle Association.
As a result of the National Rifle Association's lobbying efforts, governmental research into gun mortality has shrunk by 96 percent since the mid-1990s, according to Reuters." BusinessInsider.com
The NRA is operating like a terrorist organization.
As a result of the National Rifle Association's lobbying efforts, governmental research into gun mortality has shrunk by 96 percent since the mid-1990s, according to Reuters." BusinessInsider.com
The NRA is operating like a terrorist organization.
82
What exactly is Congress afraid of? If they're so confident in their assertions, then they should welcome research into gun violence.
2
The death rate for automotive accidents in the United States is roughly 3 fold higher than the UK, Germany, France, Japan and most industrialized nations.
The death rates for automotive accidents vary by demographics. Just as the death rates for gun violence.
The death rates for automotive accidents vary by demographics. Just as the death rates for gun violence.
3
I wonder if that's because we fail to provide public transportation, and therefore rely on cars more than other countries. Just a hunch I have that it has less to do with "demographics" than with our fav;are to provide a public transportation infrastructure.
5
So you're saying we're violent killers and terrible drivers?
1
The 2nd amendment is outdated, period. It was introduced to fit its time and that time is now past. We need laws to fit our time and the system has always evolved. Why is this one issue stuck in the 18th century? As with any suspicious issue, follow the money. And look for Congresspersons that lack a backbone and a moral code. Once we vote every one of these cowards out of office, there may be an opportunity to finally apply for admission to the civilized world.
30
The Second Amendment must be repealed. It is not sacred and, in its present form, it is an insurmountable obstacle to appropriate regulation of these indiscriminately death-dealing instruments. The original Constitution countenanced slavery, among other evils; it took a Civil War and a mere couple of hundred years to change this. Why not a similar long-term campaign to end the misbegotten "right to bear arms", too?
17
I say, let only 2nd Amendment era be legal. You can have all the muskets you want!
It's time countries around the world issued a travel advisory against their citizens visiting the US on holiday, or business. Perhaps the ensuing loss of revenue would put congressmen from states that depend on international trade and tourism on notice that inaction has consequences.
69
Trust me, a voluntary travel advisory is in effect. Given US border guards and gun violence, I ain't bin to the US for years.
2
This is a fabulous idea! A full-on, worldwide boycott of the US. I live in a very tourism-dependent state, so I can only imagine what the cost would be. I'd be willing to risk it.
2
In 1990, Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger described the Court's expansive reading of the Second Amendment as a “fraud on the American public.”
He was right.
He was right.
208
Scalia was a fraudster alright, one whose decisions that armed the criminals, the insane, and the terrorists is behind this kind of bloodbath.
Shame on George Mason University for naming their Law School after such a craven Supreme Court Justice. Can one reasonably infer that the blood of innocents that is on Scalia's hands is now on the hands of the trustees of the George Mason University?
Shame on George Mason University for naming their Law School after such a craven Supreme Court Justice. Can one reasonably infer that the blood of innocents that is on Scalia's hands is now on the hands of the trustees of the George Mason University?
3
The idea that the problem of gun violence can be remedied with more effective counterterrorism efforts, limiting immigration, and imposing more social controls over people who are frustrated and prone to becoming angry and acting it out violently but not by imposing more control over guns and who has them, simply ignores the obvious. To remove guns from access to those who would misuse them, society must know where the guns are and in whose possession, and be able to take them away. That means gun registration and licensing. It means formal and well run procedures that assure due process of law that respects the rights everyone.
19
One thing that struck me in listening to the videos taken the night of the Orlando killings was listening to the difference between law enforcement officers' guns compared to the perps firing. It literally sounded like a bullet ratio of 2-3/1. The police would shoot and the perp's semi-automatic rifle would return what sounded like at least two or three bullets for every shot. It's horrifying; even the police are significantly outgunned on our own city streets by the power of the NRA.
18
What hyperbole. How did you determine the police vs. the murderer's weapon shots?
If you knew anything about guns you would know the .223 he used was not able to fire that fast.
But then again, the anti-gun folks are in full force over this horrible event. Not that gun control would have prevented it, in any way.
If you knew anything about guns you would know the .223 he used was not able to fire that fast.
But then again, the anti-gun folks are in full force over this horrible event. Not that gun control would have prevented it, in any way.
1
The NRA is on the side of the enemies of America foreign and domestic.
3
Whatever happened to that "well regulated militia"? We have a multitude of militias of one, which requires too much head-scratching to be remotely close to what the Founding Fathers had in mind.
We are on a one-way, limited access road that ends in a cul-de-sac of pure insanity. My heart goes out to the victims, their friends, their families, and this country as we all, once again, try to build some optimism for the future.
We are on a one-way, limited access road that ends in a cul-de-sac of pure insanity. My heart goes out to the victims, their friends, their families, and this country as we all, once again, try to build some optimism for the future.
44
Mateen was both a corrections officer and a licensed armed guard. How much more well regulated would you like to be, and how would you implement such a program?
We should be taxing guns & their supplies to pay for the economic damage they cause.
Even at a meager cost per human life senslilessly lost, gun violence may be lowering our real GDP substantially below these other wealthy democracies.
Even at a meager cost per human life senslilessly lost, gun violence may be lowering our real GDP substantially below these other wealthy democracies.
34
Comparing gun homicides in the U.S. with countries that have sparse gun ownership to prove that eliminating guns is the best solution kind of ignores the complexity of the issue. Gun homicides are a leading cause of death nationally but the concentration of gun ownership does not correlate well with the density of gun ownership. In urban areas most people do not own nor use guns but that is where the gun violence is concentrated. In the rural and suburban areas where gun ownership is most concentrated, the gun violence is relatively uncommon. This fact is utterly ignored in the discussion because the debate on guns and violence is totally polarized. The people who have the most political influence are people who fear guns and the people who own them so much that the only solution that they see is to remove all guns from private ownership and the people who have and use guns safely and with care fear the motives of those who would use any excuse to eliminate all guns that they have become opposed to any controls whatsoever. It's so emotionally charged that one must either agree to destroy all guns to control them or to allow the gun violence to be increased with the increased carrying of guns by more people. All the reasonable discussion is long gone. We need to have far more control of guns than we have but to be workable everyone must agree on a common set of principles that serve the interests of all. To do this requires trust and tolerance for different perspectives.
36
The people who have the most political influence fear guns? It seems to me that the NRA and other such groups have far more political influence than those who fear guns, which is why we've done absolutely nothing about guns, even after Sandy Hook. And people don't fear guns - they fear being murdered by one. Big difference.
No one is asking for all guns to be destroyed - that's a straw man argument. And no one is taking away anyone's guns. What people are asking for are reasonable regulations, including ending the gun show and online background check exemption and an end to private citizens owning assault weapons.
And your stats about gun crime are completely wrong. Even back around 2007, children in states with the highest rates of gun ownership were 16x more likely to die from an accidental gunshot wound, 7x more likely to commit suicide with a gun and 3x as likely to be murdered with a firearm.
While we do have urban areas like Chicago, with very high rates of gun violence, we also have New York City, which had 339 murders (from all types of weapons) in 2015, slightly higher than 2013 and 2014, but otherwise the lowest in 55 years since records were kept and even lower than 1928, when the population was 1.5 million smaller. There were 2245 murders in NYC in 1990, so the city has made remarkable progress.
It's not reasonable to continue to permit 30,000 gun deaths per year.
No one is asking for all guns to be destroyed - that's a straw man argument. And no one is taking away anyone's guns. What people are asking for are reasonable regulations, including ending the gun show and online background check exemption and an end to private citizens owning assault weapons.
And your stats about gun crime are completely wrong. Even back around 2007, children in states with the highest rates of gun ownership were 16x more likely to die from an accidental gunshot wound, 7x more likely to commit suicide with a gun and 3x as likely to be murdered with a firearm.
While we do have urban areas like Chicago, with very high rates of gun violence, we also have New York City, which had 339 murders (from all types of weapons) in 2015, slightly higher than 2013 and 2014, but otherwise the lowest in 55 years since records were kept and even lower than 1928, when the population was 1.5 million smaller. There were 2245 murders in NYC in 1990, so the city has made remarkable progress.
It's not reasonable to continue to permit 30,000 gun deaths per year.
24
Actually the repeal of the Second Amendment and the confiscation of all guns in private hands is not a straw man argument at all. I think it's quite reasonable, even though it's unpopular idea, and repeal would not pass in today's political climate, but it is the simplest and best solution to a malignant social problem that is unique to America. No one should be afraid to advocate for repeal of the Second Amendment!
9
Agree with your analysis.
The overall rates of automotive deaths in the US are roughly 3 fold greater than the UK, Germany, France, Japan and many other industrialized nations.
Large highly diverse populations have different rates of death from gun violence, automotive accidents because these rates vary significantly between demographic groups.
The overall rates of automotive deaths in the US are roughly 3 fold greater than the UK, Germany, France, Japan and many other industrialized nations.
Large highly diverse populations have different rates of death from gun violence, automotive accidents because these rates vary significantly between demographic groups.
One statistic is missing - the rates of individual gun ownership in these different countries. Although I suspect that would still not normalize our horrifying exceptionalism - and the equanimity with which all of us accept this as the norm.
Even accounting for "per capita" gun ownership, the US is off-scale high.
2
Our violent society is a reflection of our corrupt and violent leadership including the news and entertainment media that glorifies cartoonish violence in movies and video games while excusing gun murders on a weekly basis of unarmed innocent American citizens like Tamir Rice and John Crawford just as easily as it excuses the collateral damage when we bomb or missile strike the wrong or innocent targets in foreign countries in search of "bad guys" overseas.
Our leadership has failed and continues to fail the American people, look at the two candidates we are about to put up for president of our country; we are really setting a poor example for the rest of the world to follow with our embracing guns and paranoia and big money in politics not unarmed and open cross-cultural social engagement, peace and social equity.
More stockpiling of guns and ammo by the American public, with more military hardware and paramilitary police at home to keep the armed public in check and safe, America how'd we lose our way so horribly? Are we really this hateful, dumb and pathetic? It's time to disarm America, we won WWII over 70 years ago and our brave WWII fathers and grandfathers are rapidly dying off, our violent society today is not what they fought overseas for. Most were happy to get back home and to put away their weapons for good and live peaceful productive lives. How ironic that Germany and Japan have civil non-violent societies and we don't, did they really win the smart's war?
Our leadership has failed and continues to fail the American people, look at the two candidates we are about to put up for president of our country; we are really setting a poor example for the rest of the world to follow with our embracing guns and paranoia and big money in politics not unarmed and open cross-cultural social engagement, peace and social equity.
More stockpiling of guns and ammo by the American public, with more military hardware and paramilitary police at home to keep the armed public in check and safe, America how'd we lose our way so horribly? Are we really this hateful, dumb and pathetic? It's time to disarm America, we won WWII over 70 years ago and our brave WWII fathers and grandfathers are rapidly dying off, our violent society today is not what they fought overseas for. Most were happy to get back home and to put away their weapons for good and live peaceful productive lives. How ironic that Germany and Japan have civil non-violent societies and we don't, did they really win the smart's war?
20
The country has an unfortunate relationship with guns that involves equal parts of political cowardice, willful irresponsibility, immaturity, irrationality and corporate profiteering. It is an ongoing national embarrassment. Some have argued for repeal of the 2nd Amendment, which has been cynically distorted by the gun lobby for years. It's worth considering because it's serving no good purpose at this point.
41
If I were from another planet and just happened upon this comment page to read about how terrible it is that the NRA just buys off politicians but that really truly and in 100% true fact the vast majority of Americans want stricter gun control and there is nothing prohibiting them from lobbying said politicians in the opposite direction, wouldn't it make sense that the resources of majority would be able to overcome the resources of minority? Or I guess the logical alternative would be that Charles Koch is behind it all.
5
You would be correct, but the aliens might understand the conundrum better if they knew what a constitution (and its amendments) was intended to do. Don't get me wrong--I favor gun control and think the Second Amendment is interpreted too broadly--but the whole point of the Constitution is to lay out rules that do NOT flow naturally from the rule of the majority. That is, to protect the rights if minority groups from being trampled by the majority. That is why they need to be explicitly laid out, since they are not automatic.
With that in mind, I think the aliens might understand also why your implied criticism--that because they have not triumphed, gun rights proponents must not be in the majority as they believe--is wrong. When protected by the Constitution, however wrongly interpreted, the rights of a minority triumph over the majority. That is what is going on here. Without the Second Amendment we would have more restrictive gun laws in a moment. (Which I favor, but I appreciate the legal difficulty as long as the Second is interpreted so broadly).
With that in mind, I think the aliens might understand also why your implied criticism--that because they have not triumphed, gun rights proponents must not be in the majority as they believe--is wrong. When protected by the Constitution, however wrongly interpreted, the rights of a minority triumph over the majority. That is what is going on here. Without the Second Amendment we would have more restrictive gun laws in a moment. (Which I favor, but I appreciate the legal difficulty as long as the Second is interpreted so broadly).
4
What multi - million dollar corporation do common citizens who want gun regulation have behind them to fund such lobbying to compete with the gun manufacturers funded NRA? In American politics, it's all about the money.
1
I'm afraid money rules our country. Thanks to Citizens United (not the initial cause, but the final nail in the coffin of our democracy) the vote of the people carries little weight compared to the influence of the lobbyists and 1%ers.
1
The notion that there is a constitutional right to have the option to deliver lethal force to any aspect of the daily lives of citizens and with no warning is a key indicator if the degenerate state of our political system (and even A. Scalia left the door open to gun regulation which gun ideologues conveniently gloss over). So long as business interests are permitted to influence the political landscape we are complicit in the system we have.
Anyone who somehow sees the gun lobby as the protector of Americans' rights or constitutional freedoms has been sold a bill of goods. Their darling member organization is a representative of gun manufacturers and dealers whose sole objective is to sell more guns, nothing more, nothing less. It is an indication of their lack of imagination that their only way to keep their sales volume up is to radicalize the issue with extremely unrealistic ideas about self protection from criminals of the equally ludicrous notion that they could stop govt overreach with their semi automatic. Let's talk about an insular culture of low education.
The numbers vis a vis other developed countries are staggering.
To say nothing of the enormous background stress all Americans feel every moment from the violent reality they live in. For most reasonable people (and most all other countries it seems) being free means not having to worry about bullets the next time you go out in public.
Anyone who somehow sees the gun lobby as the protector of Americans' rights or constitutional freedoms has been sold a bill of goods. Their darling member organization is a representative of gun manufacturers and dealers whose sole objective is to sell more guns, nothing more, nothing less. It is an indication of their lack of imagination that their only way to keep their sales volume up is to radicalize the issue with extremely unrealistic ideas about self protection from criminals of the equally ludicrous notion that they could stop govt overreach with their semi automatic. Let's talk about an insular culture of low education.
The numbers vis a vis other developed countries are staggering.
To say nothing of the enormous background stress all Americans feel every moment from the violent reality they live in. For most reasonable people (and most all other countries it seems) being free means not having to worry about bullets the next time you go out in public.
29
Scalia, fortunately, is no longer sitting on the Supreme Court. Not that I would want him absent by dying, but his view of the world was far from mainstream.
There was a time when I would react to mass shootings with disgust and revulsion--but also a speck of hope. Hope that perhaps this might be the last one. That our leaders and citizens would finally find a way to bring the bloodshed to an end. But apparently not. With mind-numbing regularity mass murders continue. It makes be ashamed to think that as a country we can't do better. But what is also alarming, is that I'm finding that I don't react with the same outrage anymore. I've been beaten down by the steady drumbeat of tragedy. I'm 67 years old. I've never held a gun, fired a gun, or had the desire to do so. And the only outrage and anger seems to be from those who fiercely defend the second amendment. I don't get the whole gun culture. Guns scare the daylights out of me. I accept only that they are a necessary evil--but in my view--evil nonetheless. But what is also evil is losing outrage over the deaths of the innocent people in Orlando who I'm sure wanted only to live and go home at the end of the night. I pray that everyone stays outraged--for the victims.
159
It would be great if extremists on both sides of the political spectrum could learn from this shooting.
Rightwingers, accept a ban on automatic weapons that allow a single person to kill dozens in a few minutes, as well as reasonable measures to make it harder for the wrong people to purchase guns.
Lefties, realize that immigration needs to be curtailed from countries with primitive views about women and gays, or we can expect more events like Orlando, as well as countless smaller instances of intolerance.
I, for one, am tired of my government making policy decisions with no regard for the common good. Instead, we get policy-making an ideological slant ("no limits on guns! That's the first step toward tyranny!" "No limits on immigration! Diversity is good, the more the better!")
Rightwingers, accept a ban on automatic weapons that allow a single person to kill dozens in a few minutes, as well as reasonable measures to make it harder for the wrong people to purchase guns.
Lefties, realize that immigration needs to be curtailed from countries with primitive views about women and gays, or we can expect more events like Orlando, as well as countless smaller instances of intolerance.
I, for one, am tired of my government making policy decisions with no regard for the common good. Instead, we get policy-making an ideological slant ("no limits on guns! That's the first step toward tyranny!" "No limits on immigration! Diversity is good, the more the better!")
5
Philip, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, this nation's right wing has exceedingly "primitive views about women and gays" - and those folks aren't immigrants. One entire party has systematically invaded and intruded upon women's private medical decisions and right to determine our own reproductive health decisions without their patriarchal oversight - I would call that both misogynist and primitive. Their views of gays are equally repugnant. Too many of those folks occupy state legislatures, hold their governors' mansions, and over-populate Congress, my friend.
21
Automatic weapons have been highly regulated since the National Firearms Act of 1934, and require a special federal license to purchase. So called "assault weapons" are semi automatic guns. Many hunting rifles are also semi automatic. Semi automatic means that they fire once every time the trigger is pulled, and they automatically load the next round.
Completely agree Rebecca. Just look at the venom directed towards LGBT individuals in the southern states where they keep passing ridiculous laws so they won't have to bake cakes for those whom they, for no good reason, hate and despise.
Hatred of the other is as American as apple pie and is at its most venomous in southern red states where people have forbears going back forever. Donald Trump knows exactly who his audience is for his flat out racist remarks.
Haters should stop to ponder the fact that newcomers may be radicalized by virtue of being bullied and taunted and treated with the utmost disrespect and disdain by the people who interact with them. Hatred has a price, a steep one.
Hatred of the other is as American as apple pie and is at its most venomous in southern red states where people have forbears going back forever. Donald Trump knows exactly who his audience is for his flat out racist remarks.
Haters should stop to ponder the fact that newcomers may be radicalized by virtue of being bullied and taunted and treated with the utmost disrespect and disdain by the people who interact with them. Hatred has a price, a steep one.
3
I think our love for freedom is what makes this country great, but as the saying goes "too much of one thing is never a good thing". People need to realize that "freedom" is not free. Freedom has a price and it usually comes at a cost to our general safety. For example, to address the problem of motor vehicle deaths, we could have taken the extreme approach of banning cars all together. If no one is allowed to drive, there would be no road fatalities - problem solved. However, such an approach would be impractical and unreasonable since most car owners are responsible and competent drivers. Instead, we implemented a wide range of common-sense road laws and car safety standards to make driving much safer. These regulations took away some of our freedoms (for example, we are not allowed to go 150 mph on the freeway), but in exchange we are a lot less likely to die in a car crash.
In most circumstances, like the one above, we can usually find a sensible compromise between freedom and safety. However, with guns, it's a completely different story. Pro gun advocates treat every gun safety measure as one step removed from a complete ban on guns. It's absurd. If these people took they same approach to vehicle safety, they would also oppose cross-walks, stop signs, seat belts and speed limits.
I'm at a loss here. I really don't know what more needs to happen for things to change.
In most circumstances, like the one above, we can usually find a sensible compromise between freedom and safety. However, with guns, it's a completely different story. Pro gun advocates treat every gun safety measure as one step removed from a complete ban on guns. It's absurd. If these people took they same approach to vehicle safety, they would also oppose cross-walks, stop signs, seat belts and speed limits.
I'm at a loss here. I really don't know what more needs to happen for things to change.
48
But Bruce...many other countries value freedom as much as the Americans do - and have real freedom - from gun violence, from worry about paying for health care for example.
Offer the chance to carry a sidearm into the Gun-Free Zone to military or policemen in that crowd and I promise you that there would not have been ten victims.
What needs to be outlawed are Gun-Free Zones. They promise the murderer the chance to put his name into the history books.
What needs to be outlawed are Gun-Free Zones. They promise the murderer the chance to put his name into the history books.
We've come to accept, no, expect airbags (that work, sorry Takata), lane change warnings, crumple zones and other safety devices in cars; if a car manufacturer such as Toyota, Ford or GM designs an unsafe car, they are pilloried by the public. Yet guns and gun manufacturers are not held to the same standard by a lot of the same people who want a supremely safe vehicle in which to cruise down the interstates, probably at speeds much higher than legal.
Let's face it, Americans have really prostituted the word "freedom" into the term "being selfish." We want what we want, when we want, no rules really, and to play by the rules we make up on the fly.
That's really what is going on here. If Americans really cared to have a national sense of purpose, AR-15s would be sold only to cops and the military, and we'd have gun laws and gun safety measures the same as we have for auto manufacturers.
Let's face it, Americans have really prostituted the word "freedom" into the term "being selfish." We want what we want, when we want, no rules really, and to play by the rules we make up on the fly.
That's really what is going on here. If Americans really cared to have a national sense of purpose, AR-15s would be sold only to cops and the military, and we'd have gun laws and gun safety measures the same as we have for auto manufacturers.
2
You'd think this horrifyingly embarassing statistic would shame Americans into acting. But it won't. Only around 3% of Americans travel overseas every year. Some would like to be to afford to travel; many others are just not interested. For them the world stops at our Atlantic and Pacific coasts. Even our contiguous neighbors are always completely unknown and misunderstood. So statistics like this one (there are many more) that show how pathetically we stack up to our OECD peer group have little traction. It is an ongoing tragedy, based on ignorance of our true ranking among the advanced nations.
31
We are saddened by this latest killing spree, but mostly disgusted as our country's leaders continue to cower to the NRA. The people of this country have had enough of killings. No flag at half staff, prayers for survivors, moments of silence for the dead, memorial services, 24-hour gruesome news reports, reporters in black attire, promises for gun law regulations, or empty promises ring true to the average citizen of the USA. The time is now to elect a leader, if there is one, who will take on this horrific culture of bloodshed.
31
This graphic does a dramatic job of visually explaining American Exceptionalism. Of course we have a lot in common with other countries, but the one thing that makes us unique is easy, legal access to certain types of guns intended for warfare.
14
Because our constitution provides for a well-regulated militia we have allowed pro-gun forces to extend this intent to everyday citizens being permitted to carry all the handguns and semi-automatic weapons they can pick up at the corner gun show. The result is a country that looks more like a third world country than an advanced nation.
We ignore entire neighborhoods in cities where gun violence is ubiquitous-- Chicago over memorial weekend is just one example--because the people who live in those neighborhoods are poor or black or hispanic or some "other" that somehow allows us to ignore those gun related deaths as, well, the "fault" of those sentenced to live there by lack of opportunity. Being born poor shouldn't ever be a death sentence in the richest nation in the world.
We do this because those that want to carry guns to feel powerful lobby incessantly. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!", it's a mental illness problem, it's a poverty problem. Glib slogans to say, move along, there's nothing to see here.
But all those other advanced countries--they have mentally ill people too, and poor people, and drug addicts, etc. They just aren't shooting each other. What's remarkable isn't how we all stop in shock when there's a mass shooting. What's remarkable is that we let parts of Chicago exist as virtual armed camps. An average of seven children and teens under twenty die in gun violence every day in the U.S. Shame on us, and shame on this country.
We ignore entire neighborhoods in cities where gun violence is ubiquitous-- Chicago over memorial weekend is just one example--because the people who live in those neighborhoods are poor or black or hispanic or some "other" that somehow allows us to ignore those gun related deaths as, well, the "fault" of those sentenced to live there by lack of opportunity. Being born poor shouldn't ever be a death sentence in the richest nation in the world.
We do this because those that want to carry guns to feel powerful lobby incessantly. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!", it's a mental illness problem, it's a poverty problem. Glib slogans to say, move along, there's nothing to see here.
But all those other advanced countries--they have mentally ill people too, and poor people, and drug addicts, etc. They just aren't shooting each other. What's remarkable isn't how we all stop in shock when there's a mass shooting. What's remarkable is that we let parts of Chicago exist as virtual armed camps. An average of seven children and teens under twenty die in gun violence every day in the U.S. Shame on us, and shame on this country.
46
They weren't shooting each before they had strict gun control. And in countries within Europe with higher gun ownership rates than the others, they are not shooting each other at higher rates. In fact, it is the opposite. We have higher rates of killing by knives and blunt instruments than European countries. What explains that? Culture matters.
15
What's really troubling--and indicative of how the gun culture has impacted our society--is that we are learning to accept these recurring tragedies as some sort of new normal. Even the massacre of school kids changed nothing. All that's needed, we are told, is more good guys with more guns.
1
Exactly. If Ellie really wants to help out all those South Siders, she'd do a whole lot more addressing the rate of single parent households than the rate of gun ownership
Make it mandatory to get insurance on your gun and let the insurance actuaries do the rest.
No gun purchase without proof of insurance and a mandatory one year sentence for not having your valid insurance. Second offence is five years, and a three-strikes you're out life sentence on the third.
Insurance premiums and incarceration have reduced drunk driving and they can reduce gun violence also.
No gun purchase without proof of insurance and a mandatory one year sentence for not having your valid insurance. Second offence is five years, and a three-strikes you're out life sentence on the third.
Insurance premiums and incarceration have reduced drunk driving and they can reduce gun violence also.
58
This is a great idea. Instead of incarceration, the initial one-year sentence for an insurance lapse could comprise confiscation and a temporary restraint on gun ownership, with parole-type checks. Take it from there on subsequent violations. And the gun ought to be a civilian-type gun, otherwise join up if you want to defend our country.
7
Here we go again. Yes, what happened is very sad but it was not preventable. Yet again, loaded weapons did not leap into someones hand and command them to break the law. And if it had not been firearms it would have been Molotov cocktails, propane tank bombs, so on and so forth.
Nothing has changed in the Islamic world. The religious leaders, all of them, still rail against pretty much everything in the West. Especially things like the LGBT movement. They clearly state that killing those are a guaranteed entry into their heaven., no matter how many innocents die. Until the Western governments treat this as a war launched by Islamist's against the West and it's value's nothing will change.
Nothing has changed in the Islamic world. The religious leaders, all of them, still rail against pretty much everything in the West. Especially things like the LGBT movement. They clearly state that killing those are a guaranteed entry into their heaven., no matter how many innocents die. Until the Western governments treat this as a war launched by Islamist's against the West and it's value's nothing will change.
11
They treating it as such--it's just that there's no purely military solution.
1
You miss the point. Even excluding the mass killings in the US, our death rate from guns far exceeds the rate in all other first and second world countries . It isn't about Islamic extremists. We are in more danger of being shot by family, friends and others that we know than all the Islamic terrorists in the world.
1
We need the insurance industry to require that they be made aware of guns in a household, and be permitted to charge hefty premiums for the presence of those weapons. We need to mandate that every gun owner will have to pay for liability insurance. We also need to recognize that domestic violence is frequently at the core of a significant percentage of the gun carnage in this nation, and that once this line is crossed, it is a small leap to mass killings. We need to put the NRA out of business permanently, and we need to repeal the anachronistic, lethal 2nd Amendment. We are an international disgrace - we look, bluntly, like savage barbarians.
122
Please. How would having insured households with guns in them prevented this lunatic from spreading his damage?
It is indeed a vicious tragedy. But your knee jerk solution would have no bearing upon the event at all. None.
It is indeed a vicious tragedy. But your knee jerk solution would have no bearing upon the event at all. None.
Anti-gun advocates never mention that the majority of US gun homicides are occurring in a relatively few low income inner-city communities. Except for this small percentage of our population, the vast majority of the USA is much like Europe. Perhaps if the media and progressive politicians weren't so politically correct we could focus on the real problem and start to cure it. And a great deal of our gun deaths can be directly tied to the very aggressive war on drugs in the US which makes this business so profitable that people kill each other to control market share. The youthfulness of the US as compared to Europe is also a factor. Trying to find solutions by modifying the Second Amendment is just another impractical political bromide. There are already enough guns in the US to supply the bad guys for many generations to come.
12
We are an inherently violent society. Some of this was inherited from America's rough and violent frontier days, which other societies either did not have or which experienced them hundreds or even a thousand or more years earlier in a time when guns were either not around or not easily used.
The overriding fact, however, is that we have not effectively dealt with the legacy of slavery in America. Black people, as I read someone else wrote, are so discouraged and feel so marginalized that they kill each other in large numbers. There is a culture of discouragement in the black communities that seems almost impossible to escape. Plus, and this is more true now than ever as some get rich on a massive scale while others scrape by, why should anyone, black, white or orange, work hard at a job that will pay them little more than subsistence? Why take a job if all you can do is struggle to pay basic bills and little else? If you believe there is a path upward, then such a job is a starting point. Otherwise, we have disincentivized work.
We are not oriented to resolve these or, face it, almost any other major problems. Our three way divided govt. and two way divided politics mean we are much better at hating each other than compromising for the good of all.
We need to understand and deal with the roots of violence in America. We need to provide hope to people for a better life through decent pay for hard work and dedication. We need to teach peaceful solutions, not violence.
The overriding fact, however, is that we have not effectively dealt with the legacy of slavery in America. Black people, as I read someone else wrote, are so discouraged and feel so marginalized that they kill each other in large numbers. There is a culture of discouragement in the black communities that seems almost impossible to escape. Plus, and this is more true now than ever as some get rich on a massive scale while others scrape by, why should anyone, black, white or orange, work hard at a job that will pay them little more than subsistence? Why take a job if all you can do is struggle to pay basic bills and little else? If you believe there is a path upward, then such a job is a starting point. Otherwise, we have disincentivized work.
We are not oriented to resolve these or, face it, almost any other major problems. Our three way divided govt. and two way divided politics mean we are much better at hating each other than compromising for the good of all.
We need to understand and deal with the roots of violence in America. We need to provide hope to people for a better life through decent pay for hard work and dedication. We need to teach peaceful solutions, not violence.
10
What if someone invented a device that when you pressed a button 50 random people would instantly die. Would it be legal to sell such a device? Of course not, it would be insane to allow people to wander into a store and buy such a powerful and dangerous device.
Yet that is what the US allows now. Most of the adult population can legally acquire an AR-15 that in a few seconds can kill 50 people. As a society it is absolutely insane that we allow this to happen.
The gun lobby's fear mongering slippery slope argument that if AR-15 sales are restricted that will inevitably lead to restrictions on handguns purchased for personal protection is not a serious argument and should not be taken seriously.
How is it possible that one lobby, pushing an agenda that causes more deaths than multiple 9/11s each year, can hold the entire country and Congress hostage?
Yet that is what the US allows now. Most of the adult population can legally acquire an AR-15 that in a few seconds can kill 50 people. As a society it is absolutely insane that we allow this to happen.
The gun lobby's fear mongering slippery slope argument that if AR-15 sales are restricted that will inevitably lead to restrictions on handguns purchased for personal protection is not a serious argument and should not be taken seriously.
How is it possible that one lobby, pushing an agenda that causes more deaths than multiple 9/11s each year, can hold the entire country and Congress hostage?
71
"The gun lobby's fear mongering slippery slope argument that if AR-15 sales are restricted that will inevitably lead to restrictions on handguns purchased for personal protection is not a serious argument and should not be taken seriously. "
But that argument is taken seriously. Seriously when Diane Feinstein can say that if she could get 51 votes to take all guns away she would. It's taken seriously when Clinton and Obama muse about how Australia did it right.
Gun owners needn't say a word in this argument. we just listen to the gun banners words.
But that argument is taken seriously. Seriously when Diane Feinstein can say that if she could get 51 votes to take all guns away she would. It's taken seriously when Clinton and Obama muse about how Australia did it right.
Gun owners needn't say a word in this argument. we just listen to the gun banners words.
1
Unless you work in law enforcement or in active military duty there is no reason you should have ready access to a gun. The vast majority of Americans adhere to that common sense. But, a significant number do not. And over their fixation our whole nation is now at risk.
Donald Trump carries a gun because he has cheated so many people and insulted so many people to their very core, that he's paranoid - with reason - he's received many threats over his life, no doubt by many who feel he's ruined their lives.
Are we really seriously considering electing this psychopath?
Donald Trump carries a gun because he has cheated so many people and insulted so many people to their very core, that he's paranoid - with reason - he's received many threats over his life, no doubt by many who feel he's ruined their lives.
Are we really seriously considering electing this psychopath?
96
Bloomberg employs five retired New York City detectives as body guards. Who did he screw over the years that he fears? Why would it be OK for him and others to employ other people who carry guns to protect them and yet would deny protection to the rest of us?
2
Though it is a symptom and not the problem, the amount of glamorized gun violence in our entertainment is worth noting. The gun is a fixture on our televisions and movie screens; does art imitate life, or life imitate art?
16
And don't forget those incredibly violent video games that many people are addicted to.
No, the cause of gun violence is real guns not fake or imaginary ones. Since a comparison to Japan is made in the article, they are a good case to look at in this regard. Horrendously violent media and cartoons are commonplace there, yet being murdered with a gun is as common as being struck by lightning.
2
Yes, but other countries watch the same movies. Most of the revenue from hollywood movies cones from foreign sources.
We are unforgivably violent, horrible people. There is zero excuse to allow murder to define our culture and murder weapons to fuel our economy. We are disgusting animals who do not value human life in any way. Most ironically, the hateful segment of our political spectrum that is comfortable with murder after murder after murder after murder is the same population that would leave women with zero control over their reproductive lives if given full reign.
If you own a gun, your hands are bloody.
If you own a gun, your hands are bloody.
23
Humans are, biologically speaking, animals. Many are good. But humans are the worst. Some of us are even not animals anymore - but monsters.
1
If there's a silver lining to this highly depressing cloud, it's that the rate of household gun ownership has declined significantly from around half of all US households owning guns in the 1970s to around one third of households currently. Demographically, that's a dramatic change. At the same time (and not surprisingly), the rate of gun deaths in the US has declined significantly as well, even if it still dramatically outpaces that of other developed countries.
It's ridiculous that we cannot enact common sense gun reforms like universal background checks, and we should not give up on this effort in spite of the frustrating outcome so far. That having been said, we don't need lawmakers to educate citizens about the dangers of owning a gun. Guns are far more likely to be used against oneself or a family member than a criminal. If people truly understood the risks of gun ownership, I believe the trend of declining gun ownership would continue, as would the number of gun homicides and suicides. We have been able to educate people about the risks of smoking, driving without seat belts, etc. Why not about the risks of owning a gun?
It's ridiculous that we cannot enact common sense gun reforms like universal background checks, and we should not give up on this effort in spite of the frustrating outcome so far. That having been said, we don't need lawmakers to educate citizens about the dangers of owning a gun. Guns are far more likely to be used against oneself or a family member than a criminal. If people truly understood the risks of gun ownership, I believe the trend of declining gun ownership would continue, as would the number of gun homicides and suicides. We have been able to educate people about the risks of smoking, driving without seat belts, etc. Why not about the risks of owning a gun?
34
We already have many background checks. People like him don't get added to the list, the mentally ill don't either. So why would anybody expect the list to be effective. And you are free to fund such education about the risks of owning a gun, almost everyone with a brain already knows this.
"the rate of household gun ownership has declined significantly from around half of all US households owning guns in the 1970s to around one third of households "
You really believe that? You believe that if a pollster called a home and asked if there were guns in the home that any of us would say yes? Hundreds of trainers are training new people buying fire arms every week. The number of concealed carriers grows every day with 25% of our students being female.
You really believe that? You believe that if a pollster called a home and asked if there were guns in the home that any of us would say yes? Hundreds of trainers are training new people buying fire arms every week. The number of concealed carriers grows every day with 25% of our students being female.
2
Some other very relevant breakdowns:
- About 2 in 5 homicides against women are cases where a woman was killed by their current or former romantic partner. That's how much of a problem domestic violence is in this country.
- About 3 out of 4 of homicide victims are male. Apparently, we've decided it's more socially acceptable to kill men than to kill women.
- When children are killed, the most likely killer is their father, followed by their mother, followed by other people the family knows. Almost none are killed by strangers - your child is safer on the playground or at school than s/he is at home.
One bit of good news, at least: The homicide rates have, across the board, dropped by about half since 1993. Our streets are actually safer than they've been at any time since the 1950's. Don't be fooled by scaremongering.
- About 2 in 5 homicides against women are cases where a woman was killed by their current or former romantic partner. That's how much of a problem domestic violence is in this country.
- About 3 out of 4 of homicide victims are male. Apparently, we've decided it's more socially acceptable to kill men than to kill women.
- When children are killed, the most likely killer is their father, followed by their mother, followed by other people the family knows. Almost none are killed by strangers - your child is safer on the playground or at school than s/he is at home.
One bit of good news, at least: The homicide rates have, across the board, dropped by about half since 1993. Our streets are actually safer than they've been at any time since the 1950's. Don't be fooled by scaremongering.
9
My thoughts:
(1) In the 1950s we had the revolver and bolt-action rifle, which are primitive tools of destruction when compared to the modern semi-automatic hand gun and assault weapon. The revolver has six bullets, the bolt-action rifle one. A Glock has a 17 bullet magazine, the AR-15 is available with a magazine capacity of 30, 50 and more rounds.
(2) The NRA hasn't had to deal with organized, motivated, calculating, single-minded opposition. The LGBT community could go toe-to-toe with the NRA. Congress can't, but maybe the rainbows could. I'm in.
(3) If we had uniform national service, someone in that club would have had basic military training and would have recognized when the shooter was reloading, and that he was vulnerable.
(1) In the 1950s we had the revolver and bolt-action rifle, which are primitive tools of destruction when compared to the modern semi-automatic hand gun and assault weapon. The revolver has six bullets, the bolt-action rifle one. A Glock has a 17 bullet magazine, the AR-15 is available with a magazine capacity of 30, 50 and more rounds.
(2) The NRA hasn't had to deal with organized, motivated, calculating, single-minded opposition. The LGBT community could go toe-to-toe with the NRA. Congress can't, but maybe the rainbows could. I'm in.
(3) If we had uniform national service, someone in that club would have had basic military training and would have recognized when the shooter was reloading, and that he was vulnerable.
11
" If we had uniform national service, someone in that club would have had basic military training and would have recognized when the shooter was reloading, and that he was vulnerable."
I can reload an AR15 in 5 seconds or less. I leave one round in the chamber so I don't have to recharge or load a round into the firing chamber. Even using 10 round magazines only takes a few extra seconds. I'm even faster with a handgun.
You'd never have the time to do what you think you can do.
I can reload an AR15 in 5 seconds or less. I leave one round in the chamber so I don't have to recharge or load a round into the firing chamber. Even using 10 round magazines only takes a few extra seconds. I'm even faster with a handgun.
You'd never have the time to do what you think you can do.
3
The USA leads the industrialized world in certain metrics. That they happen to be in categories we citizens should be ashamed of is something we need to discuss prior to November 8th. Or, as Jack Swigert said, "Houston, we've had a problem here." It's past time for us to come together and fix our many problems, not build walls and promote internecine hatreds.
16
And who commits the vast majority of these gun homicides? Look it up. That information is published by the CDC.
1
What about the rates of homicide overall. This would be the better comparison. If your sister is killed by a gun or a knife, she is still dead and will still be mourned.
1
Our country has a disease, a disease which is increasingly fatal: guns, gun owners, the gun lobby, and the politicians who are influenced by the lobbies. Look at the graphic of gun homicides, and look at the related article showing the guns used and how they were acquired by recent mass murderers in the US. One of the current presidential candidates will make things worse, the other "may" try to make things better, as Obama has tried (in vain) to do. I don't believe this country is ever going to become health on this issue, as it is a terminal disease. Candy is regulated more closely in the US than guns are.
30
Yes our nation has issues, people who hate freedom and want to control law abiding people. They want say prisoners in Gitmo released, criminals allowed to run loose, etc.
2
These statistics have no context. Just compare country to country. That will get people's attention. These comparisons to freak accidents and weather are meaningless. Put the raw numbers out there. Simply say that comparing apples to apples, per capita, the US sees about 28 gun homicides per day, whereas a country like Iceland has 1. And explain that the gun violence in France with the Paris attacks was an anomaly. So many people say "Look, France has strict gun laws and look what happened in Paris." What they don't realize is that the Paris attack was an anomaly, that gun violence in Europe is rare. What we see with the Paris and Brussels attacks are unusual exceptions to the rule, and that most of the time, these countries see almost no gun death at all. Even from suicide.
22
And yet there are movements in nearly all those countries to curb Muslim immigration. What does that tell you?
No, the true comparison is violence irrespective of whether or not a gun was involved.
Fact is, if you're dead, you're dead. Doesn't matter whether the killer used a gun or a knife.
Fact is, if you're dead, you're dead. Doesn't matter whether the killer used a gun or a knife.
1
Outside the inner city ghettos, gun violence is also rare in the USA. Lets be honest about the real problem....and its not the Second Amendment.
3
It is time for our collective outrage to catalyze real change. We can pick sides and cite handpicked statistic and studies, but yelling louder and getting more people to agree with us does not make us more right. As with the long history of public health emergencies studied and defeated, objectively, by government funded R&D, so too must we analyze and propose sound policies to end the scourge of mass gun homicide. The insistence of Americans on their own opinions betrays the tools civil society has developed to better ourselves; research, critical thinking, trial and error all based in science.
While subduing the anger we now feel is not easy, asking for concrete steps to be made toward a solution does more to honor the victims of this tragedy than yelling and calling the other side names. It will certainly be hard to get some to agree to funding the research of gun violence because of their voting blocks and campaign backers, but we must present them with a substantively objective first step. Inaction in the face of their Constitutionally appointed duty to protect our health and safety will not be lost on those Americans who believe it is right to do something to better protect us. Insisting nothing needs to change would no longer be a cliche but instead the wrong decision when presented with two choices.
While subduing the anger we now feel is not easy, asking for concrete steps to be made toward a solution does more to honor the victims of this tragedy than yelling and calling the other side names. It will certainly be hard to get some to agree to funding the research of gun violence because of their voting blocks and campaign backers, but we must present them with a substantively objective first step. Inaction in the face of their Constitutionally appointed duty to protect our health and safety will not be lost on those Americans who believe it is right to do something to better protect us. Insisting nothing needs to change would no longer be a cliche but instead the wrong decision when presented with two choices.
8
At what point do we, as a society, reject the current distorted, anachronistic interpretation of the 2nd amendment?
The sole purpose of the 2nd amendment was to ensure that state governments would be allowed to field armed militia in the event the new US federal government wouldn't be able to field an army. Prior to 1791, when the Constitution was ratified in its final form, the very weak US central government under the Articles of Confederation had effectively failed to do so.
It's not 1791 anymore. We know the US federal government can obviously field a large and highly capable military. And, firearms have advanced quite a ways from muzzle-loaded muskets. it's time to either a) appropriately interpret the 2nd amendment for the modern age, in the context of its original intent, or b) repeal the 2nd amendment.
The sole purpose of the 2nd amendment was to ensure that state governments would be allowed to field armed militia in the event the new US federal government wouldn't be able to field an army. Prior to 1791, when the Constitution was ratified in its final form, the very weak US central government under the Articles of Confederation had effectively failed to do so.
It's not 1791 anymore. We know the US federal government can obviously field a large and highly capable military. And, firearms have advanced quite a ways from muzzle-loaded muskets. it's time to either a) appropriately interpret the 2nd amendment for the modern age, in the context of its original intent, or b) repeal the 2nd amendment.
341
When I was in school many years ago, I learned about the second amendment as you have portrayed it here. I have been mystified over the years as the Supreme Court interpreted the Second Amendment much more broadly.
The laws Congress and state legislatures have and have not enacted, coupled with Supreme Court interpretations, have done much to bring about the current situation. There is easy access to ever more destructive weapons used by terrorists, mentally ill individuals who set out to kill people, and those who may or may not be classified as mentally ill but who kill out of hatred and intolerance.
I wish we would, as a society, place a higher priority on our right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". So many - including children and other innocents - have lost their lives, live in fear that may translate as curtailed liberty, and find happiness destroyed by the senseless killing of those who who use guns to kill, not in self-defense or to protect our country, but because they can.
I hope everyone who feels that way will vote - and vote accordingly - in November.
The laws Congress and state legislatures have and have not enacted, coupled with Supreme Court interpretations, have done much to bring about the current situation. There is easy access to ever more destructive weapons used by terrorists, mentally ill individuals who set out to kill people, and those who may or may not be classified as mentally ill but who kill out of hatred and intolerance.
I wish we would, as a society, place a higher priority on our right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". So many - including children and other innocents - have lost their lives, live in fear that may translate as curtailed liberty, and find happiness destroyed by the senseless killing of those who who use guns to kill, not in self-defense or to protect our country, but because they can.
I hope everyone who feels that way will vote - and vote accordingly - in November.
25
Try reading common English. The constitution was written for common people to understand it. Take that reasoning out and the statement is clear. We have a right to bear arms, not machine guns, not tanks, not RPGs. Typical arms of today, not muzzle loaders. If you don't like it use the system, or leave. pretty simple.
4
Suppose you do get a law about gun control which you like.
Since you have already encouraged 11 million people to defy our immigration laws, exactly how much obedience are you expecting from the members of the NRA?
Once you teach contempt for the law, you will find that there were students in your classroom who learned contempt for some different law.
Since you have already encouraged 11 million people to defy our immigration laws, exactly how much obedience are you expecting from the members of the NRA?
Once you teach contempt for the law, you will find that there were students in your classroom who learned contempt for some different law.
2
This is what happens when a majority of your politicians are cowards and refuse to stand up to NRA and fight for even reasonable gun regulations.
I've yet to see or hear a single person make a strong argument for why private citizens in a civilized nation should be allowed to own semi-automatic or fully automatic weapons, for example.
Or why people with alcohol, drug, or violence related convictions should be allowed to own weapons.
At this point, given that there are already more guns in the US than people, the cat is long since out of the bag...
I've yet to see or hear a single person make a strong argument for why private citizens in a civilized nation should be allowed to own semi-automatic or fully automatic weapons, for example.
Or why people with alcohol, drug, or violence related convictions should be allowed to own weapons.
At this point, given that there are already more guns in the US than people, the cat is long since out of the bag...
133
Here is your argument. First fully automatic weapons are highly regulated. I would find them fun to use, but also expensive so I have never done so.
Semi automatic weapons are also fun to use, can be very effective in defending yourself if you go into dangerous areas.
Now the founders were forced to add the bill of rights before the constitution was approved. They were concerned by a powerful central government taking freedom from the people. They were very right to be concerned as the powerful federal government takes freedom from the people all the time. I am sure you won't agree with any of this, so I don't care.
Semi automatic weapons are also fun to use, can be very effective in defending yourself if you go into dangerous areas.
Now the founders were forced to add the bill of rights before the constitution was approved. They were concerned by a powerful central government taking freedom from the people. They were very right to be concerned as the powerful federal government takes freedom from the people all the time. I am sure you won't agree with any of this, so I don't care.
6
Matt, you won't see any strong or logical statements of why individuals should own weapons of mass destruction - I think 50 people killed by one person in a short period qualifies the weapons of choice as capable of mass destruction - because there is no good argument based in today's society. We are not fighting the Native Savages, or vicious wildlife, or hordes of invaders, as we were prepared to do in the late 1700's. We ARE a civilized nation, and we CAN solve problems with words and peaceful action when we commit to it. Dammit, we just have this horrible gun worship mentality that unfortunately rides on the back of our most sacred, if secular, American document. To be sure, the God that said "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is not talking to the gun manufacturers or their supporters. Satan, on the other hand, is enjoying his greatest deception ever, convincing the weak minded and violently pre-disposed folks that more available death weapons will result in less death from those weapons. Too many people who would live perfectly well without guns of any kind are being convinced, as your comment seems to indicate, that, gosh, since we already have over 300 million guns here, it just does not seem possible to imagine them all going to the smelter, does it? We have to drastically change this thinking. Satan lives in death, violence, fear and uncertainty, and guns provide for all of that. To those who need or endorse guns, you are on his side. "Satan Loves Guns!"
1
Here are some figures on rates of imprisonment per 100,000 people.
India: 30 per 100,000
France: 100 per 100,000.
US; 698 per 100,000 (not including juveniles).
It is obvious that Americans do not like to obey laws.
What other country do you know where there are sanctuary cities for illegal immigrants?
For comparison, in Mexico it is felony to be an illegal immigrant.
India: 30 per 100,000
France: 100 per 100,000.
US; 698 per 100,000 (not including juveniles).
It is obvious that Americans do not like to obey laws.
What other country do you know where there are sanctuary cities for illegal immigrants?
For comparison, in Mexico it is felony to be an illegal immigrant.
3
We are one of the most if not the most violent nation on earth. We settled this country be systematically murdering the people who had lived here for centuries before our ancestors ever set foot on "American" soil. We enslaved and murdered people who were brought to this country in chains to do our bidding. We have killed more of our leaders than any other "civilized" country on earth. We love violent and misogynistic movies, TV shows and video games. And we're the only nation on earth who has in the history of this planet ever used hydrogen bombs to kill thousands and thousands of people. We should not be surprised at these stats. We are what we are...and the greatest country on earth isn't it.
81
Actually, as murderous nations go, we're pretty small potatoes. I'll agree to one stereotype however -- most Americans don't know much about the history of the rest of the world.
3
Well said. And true. We are also breathtaking in our ignorance and stupidity.
1
It is a very shameful statistic that we are the richest country in the world that spends most per capita than any other country in the world on health care, on national defense, on education, on persons that have been imprisoned, We consume more of any given commodity per capita more than any other country in the world. We provide more rights than responsibilities than any other country in the world. We admit more legal immigrants than any other country and more illegal immigrants enter the US than any other country. No wonder America is less effective in many ways than most other countries. There is a presidential candidate, Trump who wants to make American great again. Then there is another candidate Sanders who wants to follow the Nordic countries and make America more like them. Since I am traveling through Nordic countries at the current times and finding out first hand what makes Denmark residents the happiest, I would say population control and having a nanny state is great but it is also balanced with responsibility and rights. We need to find a balance to in ensuring that mass murder does NOT occur with the same frequency as it occurs today in the USA. We need real change and a complete over haul as it relates to gun violence and clamping down on everyone who is most likely to take the life of another human being/s.
6
There are numerous problems with this analysis. First of all, why look only at gun deaths? Yes, the US has a higher suicide rate with guns than most countries, but our overall suicide rate is lower than Japan, South Korea, Hungary, Finland, and France, among many others. In fact the US suicide rate is about average for developed countries. If guns cause suicide, how does one explain the high suicide rate in almost gun-free Japan?
On the issue of homicide, Nate Silver ( http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/black-americans-are-killed-at-12-time... ) has demonstrated that the white homicide rate in the US is not out of line with other developed countries. It's the black homicide rate (8x the white rate) that makes the US an outlier. We don't have a gun death problem, the black community has a gun death problem.
The overall implication that without guns, homicide and suicide would be much lower is not supported by the facts. Selective statistics by the authors does not change that truth.
On the issue of homicide, Nate Silver ( http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/black-americans-are-killed-at-12-time... ) has demonstrated that the white homicide rate in the US is not out of line with other developed countries. It's the black homicide rate (8x the white rate) that makes the US an outlier. We don't have a gun death problem, the black community has a gun death problem.
The overall implication that without guns, homicide and suicide would be much lower is not supported by the facts. Selective statistics by the authors does not change that truth.
19
Black people are Americans, too.
86
The gun homicide rate for white Americans at 2.5 per 100,000 is still the highest first world gun homicide rate. It is more than double the gun homicide rate of major western European nations.
I would suggest that without guns, the homicide and suicide rates would be much lower. At least reintroducing the ban on military style assault weapons would see a much lower death rate from these one off, random gun massacres.
I would suggest that without guns, the homicide and suicide rates would be much lower. At least reintroducing the ban on military style assault weapons would see a much lower death rate from these one off, random gun massacres.
52
Well yes, but that is a valid point. Are there distinct differences in where gun deaths occur and who pulls the trigger?
1
It would be interesting to know how much access other countries have to guns. Are we an anomaly because of our easy access to dangerous weapons? Or do other countries have the same access, but a more civilized and less violent culture?
Probably both.
Probably both.
5
I'm an American living many years in Europe, access to any guns is restricted. The easy access to dangerous weapons is an American thing.
Most industrialized nations do not have easy access to guns. Check this out and you'll be shocked and enlightened (it's clear you have yet to see these statistics):
http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2015/12/14/gun-control-gun-rights-worldwide
http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2015/12/14/gun-control-gun-rights-worldwide
We all suffer various indignities every day, but in other developed countries, people are expected to treat each other with dignity and respect, preserving social order first and foremost. Not so in our shallow, superficial society, where we look for all sorts of ways to stand our ground and strike back at whatever disturbs us.
In these other countries, individual rights are subservient to peace, order, and good government, but in the United States, it's the other way around.
In these other countries, individual rights are subservient to peace, order, and good government, but in the United States, it's the other way around.
15
Your cultural observations may be true, but the easy access to fully automatic assault weapons is what makes us indisputably different from other societies with lower gun homicide rates. Maybe it's the designed-to-kill people guns, the ones with no hunting rationale and that are so easy to obtain that even a disturbed man on an FBI watch list can get them without any problem, that raises our death toll so high.
27
Other countries have violent people, too. But those violent folks can't get firearms, and it makes all the difference. But you are right -- we are much more violent than our other industrialized counterparts. Our educational system is much worse than those other nations, too. Could be a connection. Stupidity leads to violence.
16
" but the easy access to fully automatic assault weapons is what makes us indisputably different from other societies with lower gun homicide rates.'
Americans have not been allowed to own "fully automatic assault weapons" since 1934. "fully automatic" is redundant by the way. "assault weapon" was invented in the 1980s to fire up the crowd with no knowledge of firearms. I was in the military and I had never heard that term used.
It's stuff like this that causes me and others to tune you people out.
Americans have not been allowed to own "fully automatic assault weapons" since 1934. "fully automatic" is redundant by the way. "assault weapon" was invented in the 1980s to fire up the crowd with no knowledge of firearms. I was in the military and I had never heard that term used.
It's stuff like this that causes me and others to tune you people out.
We point fingers overseas for the cause of these tragedies as bullets from assault weapons explode in our own cities, streets, backyards, living rooms.
We couldn't be more blind to the deadly problem of unfettered access to guns if we wrote the script ourselves.
We couldn't be more blind to the deadly problem of unfettered access to guns if we wrote the script ourselves.
38
it is almost always Blacks shooting each other. The rare terrorist shooting brings out the gun grabbers
2
This is all you need to know about the gun control debate.
From CNN.
Gun stocks soar following Orlando shooting - Jun. 13, 2016
From CNN.
Gun stocks soar following Orlando shooting - Jun. 13, 2016
70
It makes me sick. This is a monumentally stupid country and I live in it. If I was younger I would not.
Indeed. The Cabelas and Gander mountain stores were surely packed. I was at one and people were stocking up on ammo. Some were buying guns.
Are we really a "free" country? What is free about wondering when the next mass shooting should occur in our country? What is free about wondering if the person walking toward you on the street has a gun? What is free about living in fear of weapons being used indiscriminately just because someone is angry?
We are NOT a civilized country - no other civilized society allows this level of carnage to be directed toward their citizens every day. At the very least we should outlaw assault weapons whose only purpose is to kill and maim scores of people like those in Orlando. Unfortunately, until the citizens of this country hold our Congress accountable for passing more reasonable gun laws, nothing will change. And nothing will change as long as we continue to allow the NRA to bribe and threaten any congressman who doesn't fall into line with their policies. Until then, the blood baths will continue.
We are NOT a civilized country - no other civilized society allows this level of carnage to be directed toward their citizens every day. At the very least we should outlaw assault weapons whose only purpose is to kill and maim scores of people like those in Orlando. Unfortunately, until the citizens of this country hold our Congress accountable for passing more reasonable gun laws, nothing will change. And nothing will change as long as we continue to allow the NRA to bribe and threaten any congressman who doesn't fall into line with their policies. Until then, the blood baths will continue.
96
Good point. And we are not free. Not in the way that matters.
This quote from The Washington Post: An Australian gun expert critiques America: You’ve lost control — "Although we foreigners can offer no immediate solution to America’s gun infestation, we can see how you lost control of the plague of armed violence. Outsiders are also perplexed to see that you’ve done so little to grant your citizens a basic human right — the freedom to live without fear of death by gunshot."
From OnPoint, WBUR's NPR show with Tom Ashbrook, http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2015/12/14/gun-control-gun-rights-worldwide
This quote from The Washington Post: An Australian gun expert critiques America: You’ve lost control — "Although we foreigners can offer no immediate solution to America’s gun infestation, we can see how you lost control of the plague of armed violence. Outsiders are also perplexed to see that you’ve done so little to grant your citizens a basic human right — the freedom to live without fear of death by gunshot."
From OnPoint, WBUR's NPR show with Tom Ashbrook, http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2015/12/14/gun-control-gun-rights-worldwide
1
I never wonder about any of these things, perhaps your mental state has something to do with why you do. Your reasonable gun laws are other's unconstitutional ones. How about you just work to change the second amendment, that I would at least respect. Not that it has any chance.
I'm just old enough to remember the shock and horror of the Richard Speck mass murders, in 1966, of eight Chicago nurses.
It's terrible and depressing to realise that with the scale of gun homicides these days, the Speck case would be reported below the fold, or maybe on an inside page.
It's terrible and depressing to realise that with the scale of gun homicides these days, the Speck case would be reported below the fold, or maybe on an inside page.
30
Well I am that age and have heard of much violence, it never has effected me personally.
Of course the US will have many more gun homicides than other countries because the US has far more guns than other countries. A more meaningful article would be one that looks at international all-homicide statistics. The link below will have these data from a UN study, but aggregated at a Wikipedia link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_...
3
The data presented in the feature you referred to doesn't compare countries with GDPs over $25,000 as this feature. Most of the countries cited in the Wiki feature with more gun homicides are LDCs--per capita incomes less than $25K. In order to collect accurate data, a country needs an organized social structure and a functioning economy.
6
John Aylmer:
Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post. But the response is typically that which reflects a mindset that the availability of guns must be the unquestionable cause of homicides in the US. But to sustain that argument, countries must be cherry-picked for a good comparison with the US. But here is some news. I am sure there are many US counties, states and towns that have your magic cut-off GDP, but have far lower gun homicides than the industrialized countries to which the US must be compared.
In my county of Fairfax, Va (Virginia with among the most liberal gun laws in the US) there are about ten homicides (not necessarily all by guns) per year in a population of just over a one million. I will put my county against your most peaceful country, and I will win. And three other VA jurisdictions- Arlington County, Louduon County and Alexandria City--may even have lower homicide rates than Fairfax County.
Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post. But the response is typically that which reflects a mindset that the availability of guns must be the unquestionable cause of homicides in the US. But to sustain that argument, countries must be cherry-picked for a good comparison with the US. But here is some news. I am sure there are many US counties, states and towns that have your magic cut-off GDP, but have far lower gun homicides than the industrialized countries to which the US must be compared.
In my county of Fairfax, Va (Virginia with among the most liberal gun laws in the US) there are about ten homicides (not necessarily all by guns) per year in a population of just over a one million. I will put my county against your most peaceful country, and I will win. And three other VA jurisdictions- Arlington County, Louduon County and Alexandria City--may even have lower homicide rates than Fairfax County.
1
Let's have fewer guns, then. This article is meaningful enough . . .
I have never owned a gun, and I don't feel particularly at risk for death or injury by gun violence. What I do know is that people who have guns, and grew up with guns, seem to have more fear. They fear that what they have may not be enough, and that may be why we have 3 million assault rifles in this country.
I looked on your graphic for Australia,because it is also a continental country with many people living far from law enforcement, and I found that Australia is doing much, much better that we are.
I'm sure that as I write this the NRA is enlisting all the teenagers it can, but I hope for a generational change that will break the grip of the NRA and lead to reasonable gun regulation. When i was in high school, getting a driver's licence was at the top of everyone's list, and now it ranks with dental checkups. Maybe in a few years guns will be something Dad used to have, like a flip phone. Let's hope.
I looked on your graphic for Australia,because it is also a continental country with many people living far from law enforcement, and I found that Australia is doing much, much better that we are.
I'm sure that as I write this the NRA is enlisting all the teenagers it can, but I hope for a generational change that will break the grip of the NRA and lead to reasonable gun regulation. When i was in high school, getting a driver's licence was at the top of everyone's list, and now it ranks with dental checkups. Maybe in a few years guns will be something Dad used to have, like a flip phone. Let's hope.
23
You will appreciate this:
Washington Post: An Australian gun expert critiques America: You’ve lost control — "Although we foreigners can offer no immediate solution to America’s gun infestation, we can see how you lost control of the plague of armed violence. Outsiders are also perplexed to see that you’ve done so little to grant your citizens a basic human right — the freedom to live without fear of death by gunshot."
http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2015/12/14/gun-control-gun-rights-worldwide
Washington Post: An Australian gun expert critiques America: You’ve lost control — "Although we foreigners can offer no immediate solution to America’s gun infestation, we can see how you lost control of the plague of armed violence. Outsiders are also perplexed to see that you’ve done so little to grant your citizens a basic human right — the freedom to live without fear of death by gunshot."
http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2015/12/14/gun-control-gun-rights-worldwide
1
Just who do you actually know? Every police officer has at least one gun, every member of the military in combat roles as well. They are not generally afraid. You make assumptions.
But America has "Free-Dumb !" - that inalienable right to be randomly slaughtered by roaming mental defects with limited coping skills ---and America has the collapsed national IQ required to sustain that eternal "Free-Dumb !"
What a fine country.
What a fine country.
64
This is an excellent article and the comparisons with other countries creates a grimly vivid picture or context for what 31 per million people gun homicides means.The analogy with France and the Paris attacks is particularly striking. The graph is jolting. And then again, the rates for Mexico (and EL Salvador), 4 X those of the out of control US are mind blowing. No wonder people are fleeing those effective war zones like hell. I want to emigrate to Canada or Europe! I'm sick of this violence and of the political paralysis to do anything. This is more urgent than "terrorism"--why the billions spent in surveillance and antiterrorist activity and the indifference to the more urgent causes of violence and threat to life and the pursuit of happiness?
12
Saw this on a bumper sticker:
Guns don't kill people.
Blood loss and organ failure do.
Guns don't kill people.
Blood loss and organ failure do.
8
Another legally acquired, high capacity gun in the hands of a man (somehow it is always a man) who is known to be off balance.
Not enough of the "right people" have died to overrule the gun lobby. The "right people" do NOT include, women, children, LGBT, soldiers, people of color or any other group of innocents.
Would a shooting on the floor of Congress or a state legislature include enough of the "right people" to get Congress and/or the states to respond to the will of the majority of the people in the United States with more sane gun laws?
Not enough of the "right people" have died to overrule the gun lobby. The "right people" do NOT include, women, children, LGBT, soldiers, people of color or any other group of innocents.
Would a shooting on the floor of Congress or a state legislature include enough of the "right people" to get Congress and/or the states to respond to the will of the majority of the people in the United States with more sane gun laws?
30
Do you want to know why?
1
El Salvador and Mexico show that things could be much worse. U.S. figures by state or for selected cities (Chicago) or neighborhoods would also be interesting. Does the NRA claim that more guns would make dangerous Chicago neighborhoods safer? Since many of the deaths and injuries are suffered by innocent bystanders, perhaps the solution is teflon siding for houses and body armor when people go outside.
5
Just so you know, Chicago doesn't even make the top 10 in US gun deaths per capita. Because Obama is from there, Rahm is its mayor, and it has tight gun laws, the gun lobby loves creating the totally false illusion that gun deaths in Chicago outstrip all other cities. In fact St. Louis has the highest per capita gun death rate. In mass shootings (involving four or more victims) Chicago is well below the median among US cities. Data trails the news of course and Chicago has had a bad year, for sure, but here's 2013 according to the CDC "For 2013, the 10 states with the highest firearm age-adjusted death rates were: Alaska (19.8), Louisiana (19.3), Mississippi (17.8), Alabama (17.6), Arkansas (16.8), Wyoming (16.7), Montana (16.7), Oklahoma (16.5), New Mexico (15.5) and Tennessee (15.4)." Illinois didn't make the cut.
3
The flaw here is that you are comparing apples and oranges. You should not compare the US to "rich western countries" because our income distributions are becoming more third world. Neither should you compare the with poor "western countries" because our pluralities do not fully respect one another. You should compare us with the Balkans (during the war) and with the Middle East and South Asia, or Central and North Africa today. We are no more killers than the Taliban, ISIS or Boku Haram -- I am sure a comparison there will have lest contrast.
9
You need to get off the couch. The US is nothing like Nigeria or Afghanistan or Syria.
1
This points out the total absurdity of allowing widespread gun ownership. A few companies make billions selling a product that is not needed and extremely dangerous. They aggressively lobby to block any common sense controls on gun ownership. This is an example of how our country may be falling apart. If the government cannot protect us from enemies and nuts with guns or gun accidents, maybe we need a new government of and by the people to replace our corporatist state.
52
Look no further,, Republicans have done this !! Will be complete soon when Trump is New, Great Republican President of the once good USA !
1
How do you square a Constitutional right with the bizarre statistics of gun deaths in the USA? Many Constitutional rights have some constraints but the ones on gun ownership seem sorely lacking given the gun violence here. Mass murder is also absurdly frequent here. Why do Americans think that firing a gun to kill solves anything. Are we more mentally ill than other countries. Have our senseless wars, Vietnam, Iraq made us into killers? You would think will all the freedom we have here that people would not be so angry and resentful.
54
There are restrains on guns, amazingly. You can't get a rocket propelled grenade (yet) or a machine gun (yet). I'm sure there are gun nuts who want these and gun sellers and their marketing machines (NRA, etc...) who think it should all be allowed "under the constitution."
1
For starters, it was only in 2008 that the US Supreme Court said that the 2nd Amendment protects individual gun owners' rights to have guns. Until D.C. v Heller the Second Amendment had never been interpreted to cover individual gun ownership. It's not even been 10 years! Out of 240 years! We can undo this as quickly as it was done. Let's get ourselves a sensible Supreme Court.
2
Do we need to redefine American Exceptionalism? This data might be closer to the reality.
21
In our culture we have for decades harbored the fantasy that it is appropriate to impose our will upon our fellow Americans through the threat or use of guns. This has mostly been a fantasy in our history idolized in film and TV and novels. In the past, the tendency to translate the fantasy to reality was seen to be a trait of someone of less mental competency, or someone of greater tendency toward criminality.
It seems that over the years we have allowed ourselves to become habituated to the concept that some people will be unable to separate the fantasy from reality - and drag their fellow men into their private nightmares. In the past we seem to have had greater checks and balances against this. Shouting "fire" in a crowded theater was enough of a threat.
Now we're expecting someone to open fire.
Step one is get the guns off the street. I'm afraid I don't know what step two is.
It seems that over the years we have allowed ourselves to become habituated to the concept that some people will be unable to separate the fantasy from reality - and drag their fellow men into their private nightmares. In the past we seem to have had greater checks and balances against this. Shouting "fire" in a crowded theater was enough of a threat.
Now we're expecting someone to open fire.
Step one is get the guns off the street. I'm afraid I don't know what step two is.
18
"In our culture we have for decades harbored the fantasy that it is appropriate to impose our will upon our fellow Americans through the threat or use of guns."
Just for the record, Americans use this same method to impose their will throughout the world too and unfortunately it's not a fantasy. It's Maslow's hammer concept.
Just for the record, Americans use this same method to impose their will throughout the world too and unfortunately it's not a fantasy. It's Maslow's hammer concept.
8
This is a modern fantasy too, spawned by too many bad movies.
The old-west had gun control. The shoot out at the OK Corral, the most famous gun battle of the old west, happened because the Earps were enforcing the no-carry law for the town of Tombstone! Earp "buffaloed" a gun off Clanton in town, he came back with the clan to take revenge.
The mining and cow towns commonly had no-carry ordinances, and they also commonly had a 'boot hill' where the pistoleros and the criminals were buried.
These are tourist attractions today ... and if you go through time you can count the graves and who died of what. More of the men in the boot hills were hung, than shot.
In the old west if you shot an unarmed man, or drew first, or shot him in the back, they'd rope you up real quick if they could catch you.
The reason there's a lot more hung than shot is that most of them couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and they were six-shooters.
Today the guns are a lot more dangerous, and there's not enough rope. Today you can kill somebody for free in a stand-your-ground state ... because you're scared.
Curtis Reeves is going on trial soon with an SYG defense for killing a man who threw popcorn at him -- shooting through that man's wife's hand, who was trying to protect him.
Such great gun people we have in America today .. and they call it "the price of freedom."
The old-west had gun control. The shoot out at the OK Corral, the most famous gun battle of the old west, happened because the Earps were enforcing the no-carry law for the town of Tombstone! Earp "buffaloed" a gun off Clanton in town, he came back with the clan to take revenge.
The mining and cow towns commonly had no-carry ordinances, and they also commonly had a 'boot hill' where the pistoleros and the criminals were buried.
These are tourist attractions today ... and if you go through time you can count the graves and who died of what. More of the men in the boot hills were hung, than shot.
In the old west if you shot an unarmed man, or drew first, or shot him in the back, they'd rope you up real quick if they could catch you.
The reason there's a lot more hung than shot is that most of them couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and they were six-shooters.
Today the guns are a lot more dangerous, and there's not enough rope. Today you can kill somebody for free in a stand-your-ground state ... because you're scared.
Curtis Reeves is going on trial soon with an SYG defense for killing a man who threw popcorn at him -- shooting through that man's wife's hand, who was trying to protect him.
Such great gun people we have in America today .. and they call it "the price of freedom."
2
Just to be fair, there there Islamic extremists in Syria and Iraq murdering and terrorizing tens of thousands of people again this year. It's awful that laws let folks get assault rifles. Really awful. But this is terrorism, let's be honest. Let's not use a terrorist attack to justify our views on gun control or political agendas.
3
This was one man who had legal access to purchase an assault rifle, not an army of recruits supplied by a state. There is no valid comparison here. Calling this "terrorism" is not justification to lose sight of what differentiates the ability of people to act on their homicidal impulses in this society vs. others.
63
Might you be commenting on the wrong article? This is about gun death rates in different countries throughout the world. It isn't about terrorism, simply homicides due to guns.
11
And had this guy been named John Doe, would you call it terrorism?
1
It would be interesting to compare the mental illness rates in other so-called "advanced" countries with that here in the United States. Maybe it's time to examine our culture and see what's causing so many people to "snap."
8
It's really a sick culture. And in the end, the demand for more and more guns really is all about race. The Trumps and Giulianis whine about Black-on-Black gun deaths, but it's the white culture that puts the guns on the table or in the gun shops or in the gun shows and ultimately on the street. So at the end of the day, this is about a sick culture and all about race.
19
This is not simply a statistical outlier, it is an absurdity. Five times the rate of other modern countries, with nobody in between! Our politicians are clearly bought by the gun lobby. There is absolutely no reason for any non-military person to own an assault weapon, no matter how much fun it might be. Two major changes are necessary: 1) banning weapons capable of slaughter like that which just occurred in Orlando, and 2) registration of all guns. If I have to register, and annually inspect my boat trailer, why would I NOT register my guns?
233
Bless you Mr. Quealy and Ms. Sanger-Katz for depicting the reality of what unfettered gun access and ownership has wrought on these United States. When will we all sit down at the same table and address how to restore everyone's God-given right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Our country has always been defined in word if not in deed by America's defense of these rights. Guns, meant by some to protect these rights are instead trampling on them.
20
The right to bear arms makes sense when someone wants a handgun. But allowing people to own assault weapons is ludicrous and outrageous. If we were meant to own assault weapons, I'd be able to go to Boeing and purchase a fighter jet, as I would be bearing an arm as I'm entitled to under the Second Amendment. But, of course, I can't do that because — money aside — there are logical limitations on what type of arm I AM permitted to purchase. Not sure why a gun is different than a fighter jet, tank, destroyer or another other mass-killing machine.
This country has a sick and perverse sense of entitlement, and what's "my right" shouldn't mean I always get my way, especially when other people are paying for that right with their lives. If we really wanted to "Make America Great Again," we should go back to the days when automatic weapons weren't as readily available and easily attainable as a credit card.
This country has a sick and perverse sense of entitlement, and what's "my right" shouldn't mean I always get my way, especially when other people are paying for that right with their lives. If we really wanted to "Make America Great Again," we should go back to the days when automatic weapons weren't as readily available and easily attainable as a credit card.
156
Handguns are used to kill far more often than any other type of gun. AR-15s are not especially powerful. You can attach high capacity magazines to them, however.
1
In Chicagoland this weekend, about 35 plus people were shot, during the Memorial day weekend about 68 plus, just one city, one small area, called South side. This is not news, not even considered as a 'crisis', as issues like budget, school funding, Cubs breaking a 100 year jinx are very topical and more trending.
Europe has seen an increase due to Syrian influx, and home grown radical jihadists, plus arms being smuggled by East European traders.
Chicago has tough gun laws, but neighbors IN, where gun shows merchandise find a free market on the south side.
Yesterday, Kerik on Fox, Bill Britton on CNN, spoke of background checks and denials for folks on watch list, interviewed by FBI etc, but were rebuked by other guests. If Law enforcement is rebuked, then free flow of guns to mentally sick, criminals, folks on watch lists, will continue.
The true believers and folks who rightfully own guns for hunting and even protection of property, vast majority, should also weigh in. Their 2nd amendment is also being violated by criminals and killers.
Europe has seen an increase due to Syrian influx, and home grown radical jihadists, plus arms being smuggled by East European traders.
Chicago has tough gun laws, but neighbors IN, where gun shows merchandise find a free market on the south side.
Yesterday, Kerik on Fox, Bill Britton on CNN, spoke of background checks and denials for folks on watch list, interviewed by FBI etc, but were rebuked by other guests. If Law enforcement is rebuked, then free flow of guns to mentally sick, criminals, folks on watch lists, will continue.
The true believers and folks who rightfully own guns for hunting and even protection of property, vast majority, should also weigh in. Their 2nd amendment is also being violated by criminals and killers.
10
I've seen several posts today speculating about a repeal of the 2nd amendment. People who oppose every sane method of gun control with death upon death resulting, may find that the refusal to accept any compromise will backfire on them. Freedom to bear arms does not trump right to life. (1st amendment.)
13
Just one more aspect of American "exceptionalism." We truly are the leader of the uncivilized world.
29
Please accompany your chart with the stats on NRA control of our legislators.
Our state senator lost his job after the Aurora movie massacre because he got some very basic background checks in place- which the majority of Coloradans wanted. The NRA paid door to door liars by the signature to tell people that our senator did not want people to protect their families. These people are vicious traitors to the public good in America.
Our state senator lost his job after the Aurora movie massacre because he got some very basic background checks in place- which the majority of Coloradans wanted. The NRA paid door to door liars by the signature to tell people that our senator did not want people to protect their families. These people are vicious traitors to the public good in America.
338
While you are at it please include which murderers where NRA members.
2
Nice try, but all you have to do is listen to the NRA Board members. Ted Nugent regularly issues threats and promotes acts of violence against elected figures.
Gun owners created this mess and said nothing as the NRA became an extremist group, promoting gun industry profiteering. And now they endorse Trump and all the racist, misogynistic views he represents.
Now it's time to reap what you've sown.
Gun owners created this mess and said nothing as the NRA became an extremist group, promoting gun industry profiteering. And now they endorse Trump and all the racist, misogynistic views he represents.
Now it's time to reap what you've sown.
1
Pro- Well we know Adam Lanza the Sandy Hook killer was a member. You could probably look it up and get back with the stats.
1
This isn't Rocket Science
The Reasons for such Violence are Glaringly Simple
The Soloution has NO AUDIENCE
The Reasons for such Violence are Glaringly Simple
The Soloution has NO AUDIENCE
2
Would someone out there please explain logically, if you can, WHY The average citizen should have access to and the need for AR-15's? "Protection" shouldn't be an answer. There are too many other weapons out there that are available. If protection is your answer, please explain why other guns/rifles can't do the job.
If it's for hunting or target practice? Why are other weapons inadequate?
And....GO!!....
If it's for hunting or target practice? Why are other weapons inadequate?
And....GO!!....
13
The NRA will not be happy and satisfied until their is a gun in every crib.
16
Follow the money. Who is making money from gun sales?
Stock prices and sales go up after a mass shooting.
Stock prices and sales go up after a mass shooting.
14
All the facts in the world are not going to change the gun policy in this country. The absurd arguments put out in support of guns do not pass any test of logic:
1. Guns don't kill people, people do. Tell that to the Orlando families.
2. If everybody was armed, there would be less violence. Sure, show me the numbers. As this article shows this is simply not true.
3. We need to have guns to protect us against government oppression. Ok, when was the last time there was a coup in a Western democracy? Survivalists taking over national parks is a much bigger issue. What oppression? It is all in your mind.
No logic to our gun policy and it is not going to change. There is no massacre of any size that will change this.
1. Guns don't kill people, people do. Tell that to the Orlando families.
2. If everybody was armed, there would be less violence. Sure, show me the numbers. As this article shows this is simply not true.
3. We need to have guns to protect us against government oppression. Ok, when was the last time there was a coup in a Western democracy? Survivalists taking over national parks is a much bigger issue. What oppression? It is all in your mind.
No logic to our gun policy and it is not going to change. There is no massacre of any size that will change this.
70
Well... you could argue that with an open border and such a violent country coming in through that border we should hold even closer to our Constitution. The founding fathers wrote that in for exactly those reasons. As long as the world is willing to risk anything to take what we have, we should adhere to that. Maybe in 200 or 300 years we will have truly secured some form of freedom for the rest of the world.
1
However both of the countries that we border have less gun violence than the United States.
54
The Founding Fathers notion of a gun was a musket, not a weapon that can propel 30 bullets in 10 seconds.
5
When recovered 80%of all guns used in crime in this area can be traced to the United States, smuggled in for resale at huge mark-ups or rented on an ad hoc basis usually to gangs.
3
Terrific article--the absurd level of gun violence in the US is not widely known. This article makes it clear to anyone.
54
Hi Roger...greetings from Brazil
Yes, it is a terrific article. But I must disagree with you on the issue that `the absurd level of gun violence in the US is not widely known`
The world is acutely - very acutely - aware of this absurdity and while many of us from around the civilized world reach out in solidarity to voice our sadness and grief at the all too common horrors of Orlando and Sandy Hook, we are equally disgusted at the American inability to resolve and of this crazy preoccupation with the blind over-reach of your 2nd Amendment.
And here`s the thing Roger, what the world has also long been aware of is that the USA is nation of class A hypocrites.
Yes, it is a terrific article. But I must disagree with you on the issue that `the absurd level of gun violence in the US is not widely known`
The world is acutely - very acutely - aware of this absurdity and while many of us from around the civilized world reach out in solidarity to voice our sadness and grief at the all too common horrors of Orlando and Sandy Hook, we are equally disgusted at the American inability to resolve and of this crazy preoccupation with the blind over-reach of your 2nd Amendment.
And here`s the thing Roger, what the world has also long been aware of is that the USA is nation of class A hypocrites.
1
We are are not just a gun-loving country, we are a violent country, period. I would like to see the same statistical analysis of violent crimes, generally. Murders committed with knives, baseball bats, even cars. There is something wrong with us as a society that goes way beyond gun ownership. The intolerance we harbor for others that don't see things our way, and our proclivity to resort to violence as a remedy is sociopathic. I am not an NRA supporter--quite the contrary--but if we take guns from these people, will it cure their sickness?
18
Excellent question. This chart may answer your question.
https://www.quandl.com/data/FBI/WEAPONS11-US-Murders-by-Weapon-Type
https://www.quandl.com/data/FBI/WEAPONS11-US-Murders-by-Weapon-Type
3
Bust the minimum wage, gut health care, education; cut taxes so schools are only for the elite, but lots of guns for everyone to shoot out differences: all part of the Republican/NRA agenda to turn the U.S. into a 3rd world country of super rich and peasants.
524
Are you being facetious?
4
No i don't think he is -- he's describing the Republican agenda rather accurately.
4
What does being rich or poor have to do with choosing to shoot other people? Sounds like quite the conspiracy theory to me...
1
The real question is whether removing easy access to guns reduces the overall homicide rate. Weapon substitution will happen in a great many cases. How does the US compare to these other countries in the other categories of homicide? Does vehicular homicide, strangling, bombing, etc go up if gun homicide goes down?
2
other than a bomb, how does one substitute killing 49 people in a club with a pipe, knife, or hammer?
18
Annual homicide rate per 100,000: USA = 3.8. Canada = 1.4. Australia = 1.0. United Kingdom = 1.0. Japan 0.3.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_...
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_...
14
Fewer guns, less killing. QED.
4
The NRA is as extreme as these terrorists
427
There is a large percentage of The US male population that is relatively defective when compared to their counterparts in other well off countries.
Driven by some weak minded insecurity they reinforce their damaged maleness by living in hopes of attaining respect through some fantasy that involves them providing vigilance against threats from the government or some imminent attack by fantastical enemies.
Their guns validate them as being among the front line protectors of a fragile culture. --Basically they are like needy grown up children!
Driven by some weak minded insecurity they reinforce their damaged maleness by living in hopes of attaining respect through some fantasy that involves them providing vigilance against threats from the government or some imminent attack by fantastical enemies.
Their guns validate them as being among the front line protectors of a fragile culture. --Basically they are like needy grown up children!
191
The situation with guns in America is unique. Everybody seems to want to compare it to other circumstances. The NRA is unique. Their ability to unabashedly buy off politicians is an indicator of the terrible political slump we now find ourselves in. The Congress and Senate Republicans are terribly worried about losing their seats - not in a general election, but in a primary election - against some ultra right winger who will get all Obama Birthers and Trump believers stirred up to vote while everybody else stays home. So instead of doing the right thing, they do the safe thing - the cowardly thing. They run and hide and talk about mental illness.
We really don't have much of any political greatness going on right now. It will be up to the citizens to stop the madness. I don't know how. Could an alternative to the NRA be established and funded? A gun owner's association where gun owners would understand that, as gun owners, they have a responsibility to stop this craziness instead of just digging in and doubling down? I wonder if there are any gun enthusiasts out there that would possess this kind of courage.
We really don't have much of any political greatness going on right now. It will be up to the citizens to stop the madness. I don't know how. Could an alternative to the NRA be established and funded? A gun owner's association where gun owners would understand that, as gun owners, they have a responsibility to stop this craziness instead of just digging in and doubling down? I wonder if there are any gun enthusiasts out there that would possess this kind of courage.
59
Y'all are absolutely right. I am wrong. I didn't remember what I had read correctly . I don't have and have never had an article that states if you aren't a violent criminal your odds of being murdered approach the European rates.
I'm sorry for my mistake.
I'm sorry for my mistake.
1
If that's so, AmarilloMike, which it is not, it still would not answer why are there so many more violent criminals in the U.S. and why in the hell are they all armed with legally acquired assault rifles.
8
I understand the NRA consults with gun shops, so they can sell guns illegally without getting caught. The NRA is truly evil, all for the almighty dollar.
Most US gun homicides are due to handguns.
Handguns are dangerous in part because they are concealable and portable.
Most US handgun homicides are due to revolvers. Semiautomatic handguns do not kill nearly so many Americans, so focusing on clips is not as important as on concealability and portability.
Gun regulations work best if they are federal. Handguns in cities generally come from rural states with lax gun laws.
Registered, automatic weapons have been responsible for a handful of homicides in the US since being put under ATF regulation in 1941.
ATF should regulate handguns like it regulates automatic weapons (machine guns) to cut the US homicide rate in half.
Beyond that, I think we should wait on further gun regulations.
Handguns are dangerous in part because they are concealable and portable.
Most US handgun homicides are due to revolvers. Semiautomatic handguns do not kill nearly so many Americans, so focusing on clips is not as important as on concealability and portability.
Gun regulations work best if they are federal. Handguns in cities generally come from rural states with lax gun laws.
Registered, automatic weapons have been responsible for a handful of homicides in the US since being put under ATF regulation in 1941.
ATF should regulate handguns like it regulates automatic weapons (machine guns) to cut the US homicide rate in half.
Beyond that, I think we should wait on further gun regulations.
2
Wait for what? Honestly, and I am not necessarily even a gun control person. But what are you suggesting we wait for?
9
Peter you better find some real citable numbers about revolvers dominating handgun murders ... and you better find some data that's a lot more recent than 1990 ... I know exactly which study you are citing, and that was 26 years ago.
Of course Republican hypocrisy on the subject of gun ownership and right to be armed is manifested at the doors to the Capitol building, courthouses, and airports. Republican rhetoric would lead one to believe that only when every passenger on a plane has a weapon in hand will flying be truly safe. I have been a passenger on a plane where every person was armed, openly so. It wasn't a big deal. But this isn't Vietnam circa 1970, is it?
28
We are a violent nation and culture. That's just who we are...and have always been. Look at our history -- including most recently, the "Wild West."
Other nations have violent histories, too -- but many of these countries are much older than we are, and have gradually "grown-out" of this tendency. Maybe, in several more hundred years, we will too. (Yet we have an exceptionally aggressive population, fostered to be even more so by our popular culture. It may take longer.)
Just keep trying to make it better. That's all we can really do. A step at a time.
Other nations have violent histories, too -- but many of these countries are much older than we are, and have gradually "grown-out" of this tendency. Maybe, in several more hundred years, we will too. (Yet we have an exceptionally aggressive population, fostered to be even more so by our popular culture. It may take longer.)
Just keep trying to make it better. That's all we can really do. A step at a time.
4
The term "advanced countries” means countries in which whites make up about 90 percent of residents. The United States should be compared to other countries with large black and/or Latino populations. Blacks make up about 13 percent of the U.S. population, but they commit more than 50 percent of U.S. gun homicides. The U.S. homicide rates is the second lowest in the Western Hemisphere. Only Canada, which is just 2.9 percent black and 1.9 percent Latino, has a lower homicide rate.
7
Yep Texas is "big" on everything including racism, women's rights, pollution, and lack of common sense.
61
If WC is a racists, it does not negate everything he might say. Facts are hard to come by today. Anyway, all of these types of responses, including yours DB, do not help really resolving these tough issues. At least his is based on something other than pure bigotry. By the way, I have lived on three continents for an extended period of time... you really can not even begin to compare these types of statistics. My goodness... even medical research shows different results in different countries. The last time I checked, all of our bodies are supposed to be the same!
2
Cite your sources William Case if you want something besides an eyeball roll.
Your first sentence is absurd.
Your first sentence is absurd.
7
Your Datum shows that Mexico has a gun homicide rate four times as great as the USA.
Since the 1960s, Mexico has gradually outlawed private possession of guns in Mexico, and so the crime has increased dramatically. The same thing could happen in the USA.
Since the 1960s, Mexico has gradually outlawed private possession of guns in Mexico, and so the crime has increased dramatically. The same thing could happen in the USA.
6
Maybe if Donald is elected and we have as corrupt a government as Mexico. The drug cartels don't hurt either.
17
Mexico has same problem as Canada....border with a society that has too many guns and not enough control. Majority of guns used in crime in Canada are smuggled in from US.
US tightens background checks, assault weapons and gun violence will drop in all three countries.
US tightens background checks, assault weapons and gun violence will drop in all three countries.
26
I have noticed that the groups that hate Conservatives are the ones least likely to engage in a real discussion. True racists and bigots are rare, and can never be eradicated by legislation. Try discussing with a Gay person that Homosexuality and Heterosexuality are a little different. As far as Donald Trump is concerned, he seems to be doing the same thing as the Liberal public does... and a lot more direct than liberal politicians.
Too much violence. Not enough political action against gun and vehicle violence.
Every day, 89 people die from gun violence:
31 are murdered
55 kill themselves
2 are killed unintentionally
1 is killed by police intervention
1 intent unknown.
Every day, 208 people are shot and survive:
151 shot in an assault
10 survive a suicide attempt
45 are shot unintentionally
2 are shot in a police intervention
See http://www.bradycampaign.org/key-gun-violence-statistics
Every average day nearly 100 people in America die from vehicle violence.
Every average day nearly 400 people in America suffer serious injuries from vehicle violence.
Every average day nearly $2 Billion in losses result from vehicle violence in America.
See http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/812013.pdf
Every day, 89 people die from gun violence:
31 are murdered
55 kill themselves
2 are killed unintentionally
1 is killed by police intervention
1 intent unknown.
Every day, 208 people are shot and survive:
151 shot in an assault
10 survive a suicide attempt
45 are shot unintentionally
2 are shot in a police intervention
See http://www.bradycampaign.org/key-gun-violence-statistics
Every average day nearly 100 people in America die from vehicle violence.
Every average day nearly 400 people in America suffer serious injuries from vehicle violence.
Every average day nearly $2 Billion in losses result from vehicle violence in America.
See http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/812013.pdf
5
The thing with vehicle violence, you mean accidents, right? I mean people NEED autos for transportation, like getting to work, shopping, visiting, whatever. There are some terrible drivers, for sure. But we still need autos. But guns? Honestly I can't think of one reason I would need a gun. Ok, there are some people who hunt but I'd be willing to bet the percentage of our citizens who actually go hunting would be way under 1%. Self protection? Well, I guess if I was in an area that I didn't belong in and was probably doing something I shouldn't, ok I would need protection. But do I need a gun at work? No. For shopping? No. When visiting friends and family? No. Being at home? No.
Your inclusion of vehicle violence (your term) with gun violence is a canard, right?
Your inclusion of vehicle violence (your term) with gun violence is a canard, right?
12
Not a canard. We need Vision Zero goals to end violence.
Please see http://www.careforcrashvictims.com/assets/MonthlyReportforDecember2015.pdf
Please see http://www.careforcrashvictims.com/assets/MonthlyReportforDecember2015.pdf
The difference is that with vehicle deaths we are constantly working on ways to make driving safer. You don't have a powerful lobby pitching against car safety.
A family can’t live in many parts of the US without a vehicle. It’s a necessity. Owning a gun is not a necessity. It's something many Americans like to own because it makes them feel safe, but that's like people saying they drive better when they're drunk or stoned; they may really believe it, but they are wrong.
A family can’t live in many parts of the US without a vehicle. It’s a necessity. Owning a gun is not a necessity. It's something many Americans like to own because it makes them feel safe, but that's like people saying they drive better when they're drunk or stoned; they may really believe it, but they are wrong.
1
In school I learned that rights have responsibilities, that you can have freedom but not license. Guess I missed the day they explained that applied to everything but guns.
51
"American exceptionalism". In this case, America places itself squarely in the middle of the Third World countries... we must to better. I am certain that the Founders did not intend the Second Amendment to enable the killing of law-abiding citizens - that's what the whole "a well-regulated militia" clause is about. The intention is not that any random citizen could own firearms, the intent was that firearms owners were trained, presumably by being members of a militia.
9
Thanks for pointing out the facts. I find it fascinating that the article does not attribute causality; yet many reader comments find it necessary to defend the 2nd amendment. It appears that the "right to bear arms" people are defensive in view of statistical facts even if nobody claims the cause to be the 2nd amendment.
14
Accurate assessment and perfectly relevant! Born in Missouri, raised in Alabama, employed in Tennessee, I have spent the last 54 days working on a project for my company here in Germany. The difference is attitude toward weapons, it really is. There are many immigrants in Europe, though incrementally less than the U.S. Yet gun deaths are a tiny fraction of that in the U.S. Get real people! We all, yes all of us, are susceptible to mental illness. Guns increase the consequences, with deadly results.
184
"Among developed democracies, the United States is an outlier."
Even greater outlier (worldwide) is our incarceration rate: 50% higher than the second placed Russia.
BTW Russia has a zero tolerance policy for illegal drugs.
Even greater outlier (worldwide) is our incarceration rate: 50% higher than the second placed Russia.
BTW Russia has a zero tolerance policy for illegal drugs.
15
Guns don't kill people, bad people with guns kill people. If Omar Mateen had not had an assault weapon with a high capacity magazine, he would have entered the nightclub with a butcher knife and stabbed over 100 people, killing at least 50. If Adam Lanza had not had an assault weapon, he would have bludgeoned to death 20 elementary school children and 6 adults in Sandy Hook with his shoe. If Seung-Hui Cho had not had multiple semi-automatic weapons with 10-round magazines, he would have stabbed to death 32 people and wounded 17 others with his penknife on the campus of VA Tech. Bad people don't need guns.
Yes, guns don't kill people. Gangsters and other "bad" guys will kill people with whatever is handy; and military assault weapons don't contribute to the carnage....these military combat weapons, meant to decimate an enemy, are maligned by Liberals who don't understand that bad guys will kill you even if you ban these weapons. Of course, no one has shown that owning a military assault weapon with a high capacity magazine has saved a single life. Nevertheless, you should arm yourself with these weapons, stockpile ammunition, have multiple high capacity magazines and never leave your home without half a dozen of these weapons. America is a dangerous place. But it is not because there are too many guns, it is because there are not enough guns.
Yes, guns don't kill people. Gangsters and other "bad" guys will kill people with whatever is handy; and military assault weapons don't contribute to the carnage....these military combat weapons, meant to decimate an enemy, are maligned by Liberals who don't understand that bad guys will kill you even if you ban these weapons. Of course, no one has shown that owning a military assault weapon with a high capacity magazine has saved a single life. Nevertheless, you should arm yourself with these weapons, stockpile ammunition, have multiple high capacity magazines and never leave your home without half a dozen of these weapons. America is a dangerous place. But it is not because there are too many guns, it is because there are not enough guns.
37
There are not a lot of people who can look at the graph and conclude that the issue in the US is not enough guns.
4
Clearly, you did not read the article.
Your argument is simply disproven by basic statistical science. Using other advanced countries as a control, you can see the negative variance our lack of gun control has on the statistically likelihood of gun violence per capita.
In fact, if you BOTHERED to look at the chart, you'd see that the likelihood of gun violence is disproportionally skewed by the number of guns.
You think there are no bad people in Japan who wish to do harm? Because if you read the chart, the likelihood of getting shot in Japan is statistically the same as your odds of getting struck by lightning. The disparity between the statistical likelihood of violence there VS. the U.S. isn't that there are less bad people.
It's simply because there are so many fewer guns.
Your argument is simply disproven by basic statistical science. Using other advanced countries as a control, you can see the negative variance our lack of gun control has on the statistically likelihood of gun violence per capita.
In fact, if you BOTHERED to look at the chart, you'd see that the likelihood of gun violence is disproportionally skewed by the number of guns.
You think there are no bad people in Japan who wish to do harm? Because if you read the chart, the likelihood of getting shot in Japan is statistically the same as your odds of getting struck by lightning. The disparity between the statistical likelihood of violence there VS. the U.S. isn't that there are less bad people.
It's simply because there are so many fewer guns.
3
@Avidia' you missed the sarcasm.
14
Eventually, our elected officials will have to consider guns as a public health menace. The analogy with cigarette smoking is apt. People long felt that smoking was a personal right; no one forced you to light up, and you could always (try to) quit. Today, people believe they have the right to own guns; no one is forcing them to either use their weapons or give them up.
But when it began to be inescapably true that smoking was hazardous, and could cause death, attitudes began changing. What really accelerated the anti-smoking movement, however, was when the dangers of second-hand smoke began to accumulate. Even if you didn't smoke, you could be made seriously ill, or even develop lung cancer, just being around others who did smoke. Same with guns. People know that they can kill, but increasingly, the thought is emerging that individuals can't be safe on the streets, in their church, or in their night club, due to the wide availability of guns. Like second-hand smoke, the dangers of virtual unregulated gun ownership are overwhelming the individual's pursuit of happiness.
This will come, because to paraphrase MLK, the arc of freedom points to justice.
But when it began to be inescapably true that smoking was hazardous, and could cause death, attitudes began changing. What really accelerated the anti-smoking movement, however, was when the dangers of second-hand smoke began to accumulate. Even if you didn't smoke, you could be made seriously ill, or even develop lung cancer, just being around others who did smoke. Same with guns. People know that they can kill, but increasingly, the thought is emerging that individuals can't be safe on the streets, in their church, or in their night club, due to the wide availability of guns. Like second-hand smoke, the dangers of virtual unregulated gun ownership are overwhelming the individual's pursuit of happiness.
This will come, because to paraphrase MLK, the arc of freedom points to justice.
77
This is a very misleading comparison group. None of the other "advanced" countries has such a multiethnic population and a history of tension associated with the difficult legacies of slavery and segregation.
A more realistic comparison group would compare the US to other countries such as Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, etc., where European, African, Native and mixed populations live side by side in conditions of inequality and tension.
Or, if you want to compare the USA to European and Asian countries as in this chart, then compare the rates of gun violence in European-American and Asian-American communities to the corresponding countries in Europe and Asia. The results would be very different.
A more realistic comparison group would compare the US to other countries such as Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, etc., where European, African, Native and mixed populations live side by side in conditions of inequality and tension.
Or, if you want to compare the USA to European and Asian countries as in this chart, then compare the rates of gun violence in European-American and Asian-American communities to the corresponding countries in Europe and Asia. The results would be very different.
6
None of the other "advanced" countries have such a multiethnic population and a history of tension? Surely, you haven't travelled much or considered that a lot of european countries have a history of colonization and mixed populations. Amsterdam, London and Paris are among the most multicultural cities in the world. You could also look closer to you, to the north. Toronto and Vancouver are incredibly diverse. In Vancouver, we have had a past history full of tension with persons of Chinese, South Asian and aboriginal origins. Yet, we have large percentages of Chinese and East Asians who are also Canadian. In some communities, they form the majority. The murder rate? Less than 2 per 100,000 in a metro population of 2.7 million. Clearly, it isn't the multi-ethnicity that leads to gun deaths. Did I mention we have gun control and you can't buy an AR-15 in Canada?
You could also look north of you. Vancouver
You could also look north of you. Vancouver
398
Not as misleading as you think. England, France and the Netherlands have large populations from colonial days. Germany has had large immigrant worker populations since the 50's, Muslim among them. And Italy has absorbed huge numbers of boat people for years, and now the latest refugees from Syria and other Muslim countries have arrived in Germany. Diverse enough?
43
Canada is very diverse, and doesn't force immigrants into a melting pot....multiculturalism is rampant up here. But guns deaths....not so much. (We're hoping The Donald gets elected and builds a wall between us and US. It'll cut down on the vast majority of the gun deaths as most are being smuggled in from 'Mericu.)
34
History matters too. Guns in the US were instrumental in defeating the British, conquering the territory from native peoples, widespread hunting for food, waging an unprecedented Civil War, dealing with organized crime, winning 2 major World Wars, major involvement in Korea and Vietnam and confronting inner city violence. None of the other countries listed, save Israel, has faced such set of challenges.
3
Did you somehow miss the Napoleonic wars, WWI and WWII? of course Europe has had a far more violent past then the US. The US in the past has had sensible gun control. Banning machine guns in the 1930s and banning assault rifles in the 1990 did not lead to tyrannical takeovers of the Federal govt. Getting high volume killing machines off the street or making manufacturers responsible for misuse would go a long way to reducing the American death toll.
336
I think you're talking about the miliary and police, as far as organized crime is concerned. What does that have to do with this article? We were fighting enemies not ourselves.
30
1. Your understanding of European history seems somewhat limited.
2. "Conquering the territory from native peoples" was actually sanctioned genocide. Nothing to brag about there.
3. You're making a great case for reading the 2nd Amendment as intended: guns for a well regulated Militia.
2. "Conquering the territory from native peoples" was actually sanctioned genocide. Nothing to brag about there.
3. You're making a great case for reading the 2nd Amendment as intended: guns for a well regulated Militia.
22
People who want to live in a country where the average citizen is prohibited from owning handguns or any type of firearm should move to India or Mexico where the law-abiding population is totally disarmed except for the politically connected and the criminals.
I have spent some time in India on several different occasions. I have derived the following information from the local Indian daily newspapers that I would read every day. Every business from the large plantations and industries to the Mom & Pop retail stores must pay armed people (criminal gang members openly carrying pistols and assault weapons) for protection services.
The particular local armed gang that claims the area (or the turf like the old New York City Protection Rackets before the New York population was allowed pistol permits) where the business is located requires that the business pay the gang for the protection services.
Failure to pay for protection can result in death, rape, fire, theft, or other bad things happening.
Turf wars between gangs are also a very severe problem in India and Mexico.
I have spent some time in India on several different occasions. I have derived the following information from the local Indian daily newspapers that I would read every day. Every business from the large plantations and industries to the Mom & Pop retail stores must pay armed people (criminal gang members openly carrying pistols and assault weapons) for protection services.
The particular local armed gang that claims the area (or the turf like the old New York City Protection Rackets before the New York population was allowed pistol permits) where the business is located requires that the business pay the gang for the protection services.
Failure to pay for protection can result in death, rape, fire, theft, or other bad things happening.
Turf wars between gangs are also a very severe problem in India and Mexico.
5
I think you have taken a few isolated areas in India where this is a problem and generalized it for the whole country to make your point. The truth of the matter is the more guns you have in circulation in any society the more are the number of gun deaths. And, do US citizens really need assault rifles to protect themselves? Banning assault rifles would be a sensible first step in attempting to reduce the carnage from gun violence.
25
Are you claiming that NY racketeers were put out of business because business owners start packing heat? NY is safer today because of policing and the courts. it would be even safer if all the strawman gun stores from out of state could be held accountable for their actions.
8
Assault rifles are automatic firing weapons such as the M-16 and AK-47 are already illegal for private ownership in the USA, except for those with special federal permits.
Assault rifles can fire fully automatic like a machine gun.
The AR-15 is a scary looking semi-automatic rifle, just like those that look like regular rifles that have been available since the 1950s and are not scary looking.
Assault rifles can fire fully automatic like a machine gun.
The AR-15 is a scary looking semi-automatic rifle, just like those that look like regular rifles that have been available since the 1950s and are not scary looking.
4
What I want to understand is the correlation of our atypically high gun homicide rates with our level gun laws to other countries. In other words, is the driver of the rate an atypically low level of gun control? I could see an argument that our gun issues aren't driven by lax laws, but by something else (i.e., our culture). What's the best way to put our level of gun control in context?
2
The fact that you can buy a Bushmaster rifle, through a private sale (no background check) is a problem. Thankfully, gun owners have relied solely on the NRA as their advocacy network.
And now? Nobody is taking their calls. An affiliation with the NRA is now the third rail of politics.
And now? Nobody is taking their calls. An affiliation with the NRA is now the third rail of politics.
I am saddened to see that Canada is as high on the list as it is. However, with a shared boarder and the ability for illegal guns to cross over to Canada from the US, I am not surprised.
7
Anyone who says that guns make us safer is simply wrong.
We have way more guns than just about any other country.
And are we safer as a result?
Nope.
We just have way more gun violence.
We have way more guns than just about any other country.
And are we safer as a result?
Nope.
We just have way more gun violence.
601
Agreed.
If more guns would make the US safer, then clearly we don't have enough.
I'm pretty sure that if every man, woman and child in America had a gun (pump-action shotgun or 357 Magnum, their choice) we'd be 100% safe.
If more guns would make the US safer, then clearly we don't have enough.
I'm pretty sure that if every man, woman and child in America had a gun (pump-action shotgun or 357 Magnum, their choice) we'd be 100% safe.
1
Well, gee, Japan is 99% Japanese, and the writers say it is so great. If the USA had more Japanese, would the USA be better?
Fantasy thinking, like comparing Japan to the USA, is just a stupid waste of time.
Fantasy thinking, like comparing Japan to the USA, is just a stupid waste of time.
1
This year, for the first time, American gun deaths are on-track to outstrip vehicle accident deaths. We lead the world in child mortality by firearms, child-on-child mortality by shooting, mass shootings per unit of time or population, private possession of firearms, gun-delivered domestic violence, homicidal shooting, suicide by firearm and accidental gun death.
Our single-city rate of gun deaths compares with other, very violent whole countries. Our gun homicide rate is worse than Pakistan's, far worse than Sudan's and not much better than the Congo and Iraq. We are way ahead of the rest of the world in so many categories of gun violence measurement. We are world-beaters. We should be very proud.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Our single-city rate of gun deaths compares with other, very violent whole countries. Our gun homicide rate is worse than Pakistan's, far worse than Sudan's and not much better than the Congo and Iraq. We are way ahead of the rest of the world in so many categories of gun violence measurement. We are world-beaters. We should be very proud.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
267
Ought the numbers not be considered as a percentage of population, and not as raw counting numbers?
Also, the most interesting for a frustrated research fanatic: when did the numbers go through the roof? I find it hard to believe, (among many things), that people in the USA ALWAYS shot and killed each other in large numbers.
When, in time did a slightly elevated number of gun deaths, possibly resulting from our hunting gun culture ? The neon bright red vest for hunters was not a fashion statement, but a nod to the constant fact of men shooting other men by accident, in thick brush, since most large animals that are hunted cannot distinguish color, it was a signal to other humans that a target washuman.
I suspect it was the advent of movies, TV, long after WWII and the Vietnam war, that guns went from being part of the culture of back country sport and turned into objects of desire-the way a swimming pool, a sports car or a high end stereo set once was. Sometime, after the 60's, I think, guns became, at least among many American boys, an object identified with power, with sex and manhood, as in the Russian sense of being a "muzhik"-a "real man" -the way Putin tries to show his pecs even in a mosquito ridden swamp. You know guns mean power and sex when Putin shoots them, as our Russian twins inevitably follow American fads and freakouts.
Also, the most interesting for a frustrated research fanatic: when did the numbers go through the roof? I find it hard to believe, (among many things), that people in the USA ALWAYS shot and killed each other in large numbers.
When, in time did a slightly elevated number of gun deaths, possibly resulting from our hunting gun culture ? The neon bright red vest for hunters was not a fashion statement, but a nod to the constant fact of men shooting other men by accident, in thick brush, since most large animals that are hunted cannot distinguish color, it was a signal to other humans that a target washuman.
I suspect it was the advent of movies, TV, long after WWII and the Vietnam war, that guns went from being part of the culture of back country sport and turned into objects of desire-the way a swimming pool, a sports car or a high end stereo set once was. Sometime, after the 60's, I think, guns became, at least among many American boys, an object identified with power, with sex and manhood, as in the Russian sense of being a "muzhik"-a "real man" -the way Putin tries to show his pecs even in a mosquito ridden swamp. You know guns mean power and sex when Putin shoots them, as our Russian twins inevitably follow American fads and freakouts.
4
Just to clarify, the figures were not raw counting numbers. They were counting numbers, but those numbers were calculated from figures that were originally expressed as population percentages.
9
When we speak of the lethality of guns ,especially semi-automatics ,we forget that a man with a bag of rocks who can peg them at 2000 ft/sec and get one off every half second can do just as much damage. What're we to do, ban rocks ?
4
are you actually serious?
16
Hah! Good one.
1
Incoherent argument. What are you trying to say?
16
This is ridiculous. All those people that don't want to make reforms on gun control have blood in their hands. The greed and selfishness of all the people that make money out of selling guns is sickening. They are evil.
542
Well, everyone has blood "in" their hands. As far as gun reform, I agree that there needs to be a more strict gun purchasing process, including private gun sales. But, the tough part would be getting the state's to allow the federal government complete oversight on the gun law reforms. In order to make gun reforms, that do not vary from state to state, the federal government would need that oversight in order to make uniform policies.
Side note, from what I have seen, it is not that everyone that fights gun reform is all for "everyone gets a gun". It is more of, we don't like the idea of the government slowly getting to the point where we can not own our recreational rifles (AR-15) that are prime targets within the news. There is a common misconception that our semi-automatic rifle (NOT a military style rifle) is the same thing as a select fire fully automatic AR-15/other rifles (military style rifle).
Side note, from what I have seen, it is not that everyone that fights gun reform is all for "everyone gets a gun". It is more of, we don't like the idea of the government slowly getting to the point where we can not own our recreational rifles (AR-15) that are prime targets within the news. There is a common misconception that our semi-automatic rifle (NOT a military style rifle) is the same thing as a select fire fully automatic AR-15/other rifles (military style rifle).
3
This is the price of the right to bear arms. For the USA these represent EXCESS deaths (not just a preference for guns as weapons).
To put this another way the rate at which Americans intentionally kill each other is ~4x the rate that Europeans do the same, 3 in 4 of those killings are done with Guns (i.e. guns account for all the extra deaths). (Cross reference the UN total intentional homicide rates with they NYT gun death rates if you are in doubt. I used Britain and Germany.)
Is that really the legacy we want to hand to our Children?
To put this another way the rate at which Americans intentionally kill each other is ~4x the rate that Europeans do the same, 3 in 4 of those killings are done with Guns (i.e. guns account for all the extra deaths). (Cross reference the UN total intentional homicide rates with they NYT gun death rates if you are in doubt. I used Britain and Germany.)
Is that really the legacy we want to hand to our Children?
15
If only we could realize we live in the 21st century and not in the 18th.
5
But the anti-gun control argument is that murder/suicide can be accomplished WITHOUT guns.
So we should compare the *total* murder rates.
So we should compare the *total* murder rates.
2
Of course you can kill without guns. Which is why they were packing a bag of screwdrivers at Columbine and Newtown.
(How do scoff at these people? Geez.)
(How do scoff at these people? Geez.)
22
The anti-gun control arguments depend on yes/no, true/false, black/white logic. The logic that people, including gun nuts, use in most areas of their life is a logic of probabilities and degrees and shades of gray.
If their yes/no logic was imposed on them in other areas of their lives, gun nuts would be outraged. Maybe it should be.
If their yes/no logic was imposed on them in other areas of their lives, gun nuts would be outraged. Maybe it should be.
2
We're number one! Thank you for some excellent reporting.
SO: 130 dead in the Paris attacks, which were horrendous, equates to less than five days of gun deaths in the USA. (Using the average of 27, count 'em, 27 gun deaths per day in this great nation.)
That's rather horrendous too.
SO: 130 dead in the Paris attacks, which were horrendous, equates to less than five days of gun deaths in the USA. (Using the average of 27, count 'em, 27 gun deaths per day in this great nation.)
That's rather horrendous too.
190
If gun owners, who kept their guns at home, needed insurance like automobile owners need insurance to drive on public streets most crazy people would not be able to afford the most dangerous types of firearms.
317
An important statistical study. I'm amazed that pundits, especially GOP pundits, will focus on religion, ethnicity, mental illness, criminality...whatever to explain away incidents such as Columbine, Newton, Colorado, San Bernardino, and Orlando without ever acknowledging the easy access to guns (especially multiround assault weapons) in this country. Americans never like to be compared to other nations. We define ourselves by our exceptionalism. And, regarding our rate of gun homicides, we, unfortunately, are the most exceptional of nations.
377
Gun violence affects the poor to an overwhelming degree. Hence it is not seen as a real problem. If it affected the rich at the same rate, there would be real action taken. We are all complicit in this continuing outrage.
461
Right because poverty is not seen as a societal problem either. It's considered a personal failure.
10
It takes a certain amount of intelligence to understand the counterintuitive argument that more guns does not make you safer. Therein lies the problem. As a side note, I have several relatives in Germany who have various combinations of rifles, shotguns and pistols each. All are registered and locked in gun cabinets with the keys hidden somewhere else - as the rules require and as responsible gun owners here do.
5
Unfortunately, the same can be said for race.
1
Further proof that the USA is not a first-world country.
614
1st point: Unless you are incarcerated, feel free to move around the globe at your desire...
2nd point: If the article were in a peer-reviewed publication, we might expect a more middle of the road appraisal of the situation with the bias and selective statistics removed.
3rd point: As a "professor" I would assume you expect your students to provide more "proof" than a newspaper article from a publisher with an anti-gun bias.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opinion/end-the-gun-epidemic-in-americ...
2nd point: If the article were in a peer-reviewed publication, we might expect a more middle of the road appraisal of the situation with the bias and selective statistics removed.
3rd point: As a "professor" I would assume you expect your students to provide more "proof" than a newspaper article from a publisher with an anti-gun bias.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opinion/end-the-gun-epidemic-in-americ...
4
Third world simply means poor. First world means rich and powerful. The US is first world alright. But we do have our own form of poverty. Being the most violent of nations, we are neither good nor blessed. And so, despite our abundance, we have little. We are the poor rich.
3
Where's the "middle of the road appraisal" of a country that has had over 26 toddler shootings, so far, this year? That's uniquely American and hasn't occurred in any other first world country, to date.
The "guns everywhere" list of excuses has worn out it's welcome. Thankfully the NRA is circling the bowl with the GOP. An affiliation with them is the political kiss-of-death this election cycle.
The "guns everywhere" list of excuses has worn out it's welcome. Thankfully the NRA is circling the bowl with the GOP. An affiliation with them is the political kiss-of-death this election cycle.
6
Car or bullet? which do you prefer?
If you compare deaths from DUI we are also far above Europe. Could be we need a much better understanding of risk assessment.
2
The authors correctly excluded suicide-with-firearm from their graphs and data.
They also wrote "We focused on the rates of gun homicides; the overall rate of gun deaths is substantially higher, because suicides make up a majority of gun deaths in the United States and are also higher than in other developed countries."
The suicide-by-all-means rate in the United States falls between that of Austria and France. These countries, among others, have suicide rates higher than the USA: France, Iceland, Belgium, Finland, and Japan.
If you aren't a habitual violent criminal your odds of being killed by a murderer with a firearm drop to the European levels.
On average, we all have a 300/300 chance of dying. The cause of our death being by firearm is about 1/300.
They also wrote "We focused on the rates of gun homicides; the overall rate of gun deaths is substantially higher, because suicides make up a majority of gun deaths in the United States and are also higher than in other developed countries."
The suicide-by-all-means rate in the United States falls between that of Austria and France. These countries, among others, have suicide rates higher than the USA: France, Iceland, Belgium, Finland, and Japan.
If you aren't a habitual violent criminal your odds of being killed by a murderer with a firearm drop to the European levels.
On average, we all have a 300/300 chance of dying. The cause of our death being by firearm is about 1/300.
8
I didn't realize the 50 folks recently killed in Orlando, or the movie goers, or the children in schools or the domestic partners, children accidentally shot, road rage victims,innocent bystanders etc.etc.etc. were all habitual violent criminals. I miss your point on that one and I don't at all believe that the numbers would equal European levels.
83
Amarillo Mike:
What is the source of your death by gun rate when excluding habitual violent criminals? I assume the European gun death rate would also drop markedly if you exclude their habitual violent criminals. Do you have data on that?
Good point about everyone dies of something. However if we focus on preventable (premature) deaths, gun violence will be a bigger piece of that.
What is the source of your death by gun rate when excluding habitual violent criminals? I assume the European gun death rate would also drop markedly if you exclude their habitual violent criminals. Do you have data on that?
Good point about everyone dies of something. However if we focus on preventable (premature) deaths, gun violence will be a bigger piece of that.
31
Mike--I encourage you to post any links to scientifically conducted research to support the assertion that "If you aren't a habitual violent criminal your odds of being killed by a murderer with a firearm drop to the European levels." While I do not know the answers, I suspect that the problem is not as simple as presented in this article.
15
That's a given but Government has a responsibility to make it as difficult as possible for terrorists, criminals , mentally challenged people to get weapons of mass destruction . Sensible gun control as employed by all industrialized nations will be a step forward to achieving that aim.
It's not the total solution but it is part of it.
The best way to stop a bad person is not with a gun but by stopping him getting it in the first place