I live across the street from campus and you would have to be a fool not to realize that underage drinking is not only tolerated, but encouraged in so many ways. The university could either prohibit drinking on campus altogether, or at least enforce the current state laws. Excessive alcohol consumption is strongly associated with sexual violence.
3
To editor
I would love the New York Times to compare this case with highly publicized, currently ongoing prosecution of 5 Tokyo University Students in Japan, who sexually assaulted a woman while drinking. They are high achievers like Brock with no prior criminal records, from privileged class, and well connected. But it's highly unlikely that they get any leniency in terms of sentencing because regular prison sentence will give "severe impact" on the lives of those criminals. That is just ridiculous statement I have ever heard in developed country. In global context, this puts American universities not a safe place for women to study as essentially American justice system is allowing men, especially those at top universities, with reassured sense of grandiose entitlement shared by Brock and his supporters, can get away with lessened terms even if they commit serious crime.
I would love the New York Times to compare this case with highly publicized, currently ongoing prosecution of 5 Tokyo University Students in Japan, who sexually assaulted a woman while drinking. They are high achievers like Brock with no prior criminal records, from privileged class, and well connected. But it's highly unlikely that they get any leniency in terms of sentencing because regular prison sentence will give "severe impact" on the lives of those criminals. That is just ridiculous statement I have ever heard in developed country. In global context, this puts American universities not a safe place for women to study as essentially American justice system is allowing men, especially those at top universities, with reassured sense of grandiose entitlement shared by Brock and his supporters, can get away with lessened terms even if they commit serious crime.
6
It would be nice to believe Emily Bazelon's comforting fiction, but the sad reality is that--despite the despicably, perversely light sentence he received--Brock Turner will still be punished more, and more harshly, than almost every rapist in this country. Most get off scot-free--not charged, let alone convicted. Until that changes, let's not get too excited about this so-called "progress."
5
So I make wine. And, in my own home, sometimes I fall asleep after consuming two to three glasses.
Now, suppose some clown breaks into my house and I do not hear them, being asleep.
Am I partially responsible for the break in?
The victim exercised poor judgement. That is not criminal. The convict - he was convicted, after all - committed a violent crime. End. Of. Story. We don't need any more information. Steaks, blood alcohol level, whether the perp lies or not. It was a violent crime. He was convicted. On three counts.
Judge, do your duty.
Months - any number - is insulting. Violent crimes scream out for years.
I am a male Stanford alum, btw...
Now, suppose some clown breaks into my house and I do not hear them, being asleep.
Am I partially responsible for the break in?
The victim exercised poor judgement. That is not criminal. The convict - he was convicted, after all - committed a violent crime. End. Of. Story. We don't need any more information. Steaks, blood alcohol level, whether the perp lies or not. It was a violent crime. He was convicted. On three counts.
Judge, do your duty.
Months - any number - is insulting. Violent crimes scream out for years.
I am a male Stanford alum, btw...
9
As a woman, I grew up with a family education of self-discipline and self-responsibility from my mother. Women should be as strong as men. However physically stronger, men are allowed to be weak sometime too, even those white rich and ivy leagued ones. The two youth involved in this case were BOTH drunk. The woman drank herself out of consciousness, in a party. The young man 2 years junior of the woman, little less drunk, "fingered" the woman when there's no way to find out if she consented it. She woke up (finally) in police station while felt physically and psychologically humiliated, completely embarrassed facing her parents and her boyfriend. And he was sentenced six month in jail, banned from university, shattered the dream and expectation of the parents, permanently jeopardized future opportunities.
She firmly claims she's the only victim here. She cried loud "I am a victim because I am a woman, because he is a white rich and an ivy league student." And that's all she needs destroy the young man's life, that's all she needs to win.
It is political correctness playing here. And it's stupid and sad. This is not progressing civilization. It's going backward.
6
Both drunk, yet she did not sexually assault him.
He sent photos of her topless to friends. She has taken responsibility for her part, he has blamed everyone but himself. "Fingering" is the least he did.
It's not political correctness.
I read he's going to appeal. Good. Here's hoping his next sentence is longer.
He sent photos of her topless to friends. She has taken responsibility for her part, he has blamed everyone but himself. "Fingering" is the least he did.
It's not political correctness.
I read he's going to appeal. Good. Here's hoping his next sentence is longer.
5
Actually, she woke up in a hospital. Where she was treated for abrasions on her back and legs, and dirt and bits of twig in her vagina because the assailant not only "fingered" her, he stuck a pine branch inside her. Behind a dumpster. Sound like fun? Sound like something you would consent to? Didn't think so.
3
She is the only victim here. The raper did this to himself.
11
I have read that Turner took cell phone photos of his near naked victim and sent them to friends. If this is true it undermines his specious argument that he should not be seen as culpable because of being intoxicated.
7
A claim only. No proof and the jury didn't even consider.
3
As a rape survivor and recovering alcoholic, this story has resonated with me on many levels. Thank you for a well written piece Emily. I feel quite sure, however, that this young man will eventually use his resources to (illegally) change his name to avoid sex offender registration and the badge of infamy. I can only hope a good investigative reporter will stay with this story after the media commotion has subsided. If this man is to reclaim his self worth it is by good works and ownership of his actions. I send up prayers for him as well as the victim.
4
I question whether progress truly has been made. The only reason this case came to light is because two young men were witnesses and the lawyers couldn't discredit them or their account. What if two young women had come upon the scene? The turner lawyers would have had a field day discrediting them as well as the victim. Do take a moment to consider if there hadn't been any witnesses or if the witnesses had been women. Do you still think he'd have gotten even six months?
5
Of course this is rape, although not is unclear how conscious the young woman was when the encounter began. But what is not being said is how this university and many others can implicitly condone the alcohol abuse that is routine on most campuses. Alcohol is technically illegal in the US for anyone under the age of 21, as are most undergrads, yet vast overconsumption regularly occurs in dorms and frat houses which are part of the campus. I feel that the university should be more proactive in preventing gross intoxication, and less concerned about their reputations as "fun"schools.
Again, this in no way condones rape, but removing the intoxication factor would go a long way in improving the physical and emotional lives of the students, as well as preventing many regrettable sexual encounters.
Again, this in no way condones rape, but removing the intoxication factor would go a long way in improving the physical and emotional lives of the students, as well as preventing many regrettable sexual encounters.
2
Much has been said and written about the long-term effects that sexual assault has on the victims.
Suppose a woman is assaulted in a non-sexual manner: she gets coshed in a dark street, for the sake of her purse. If she survives, she is patched up in ER; once she is out of danger to her life, she is sent home with a scheduled medical follow-up and best wishes for speedy recovery. End of story.
Suppose a woman is credibly coerced into a sexual act, and no more. It is an act that does not endanger her life, and she might have engaged in it gladly and joyfully with the right person, under non-coercive circumstances. She may have to be treated for minor bruises and lacerations. She will be subsequently referred to as a “survivor” and, of late, assertions will be made that “her soul has been murdered.”
Can someone explain the logic of this reasoning? I do not doubt that a sexual assault is traumatic, although I question how traumatic it can be for someone who was too drunk to remember it. But so is every other assault, as any victim of violence will testify. Yet we seem to treat sexual trauma as indelible, while we hardly ever bother asking about traumas of any other kind. This looks more like sexual prudery than like compassion.
Suppose a woman is assaulted in a non-sexual manner: she gets coshed in a dark street, for the sake of her purse. If she survives, she is patched up in ER; once she is out of danger to her life, she is sent home with a scheduled medical follow-up and best wishes for speedy recovery. End of story.
Suppose a woman is credibly coerced into a sexual act, and no more. It is an act that does not endanger her life, and she might have engaged in it gladly and joyfully with the right person, under non-coercive circumstances. She may have to be treated for minor bruises and lacerations. She will be subsequently referred to as a “survivor” and, of late, assertions will be made that “her soul has been murdered.”
Can someone explain the logic of this reasoning? I do not doubt that a sexual assault is traumatic, although I question how traumatic it can be for someone who was too drunk to remember it. But so is every other assault, as any victim of violence will testify. Yet we seem to treat sexual trauma as indelible, while we hardly ever bother asking about traumas of any other kind. This looks more like sexual prudery than like compassion.
3
"I question how traumatic it can be for someone who was too drunk to remember it."
Really? So if you woke up in the hospital with a sore vagina or anus, with dirt and twigs in your genitals and abrasions on your backside and no idea how that happened you'd be fine with it? You'd shrug it off and say, well, I don't remember, so it's fine!! No big deal!!!
You should read the victim's statement, where she describes how she has tortured herself wondering what happened to her, wondering what was done to her body. In some ways, I think, the not-remembering is worse.
Really? So if you woke up in the hospital with a sore vagina or anus, with dirt and twigs in your genitals and abrasions on your backside and no idea how that happened you'd be fine with it? You'd shrug it off and say, well, I don't remember, so it's fine!! No big deal!!!
You should read the victim's statement, where she describes how she has tortured herself wondering what happened to her, wondering what was done to her body. In some ways, I think, the not-remembering is worse.
6
Had she been assaulted in some other way, as in your example of mugging, she would not be blamed and shamed for her own assault. It would be relatively easy to convict her attacker once you took sexual violence out of it. Rape is the only violent crime I can think of where the victim is more ashamed than the perp, where the victim is blamed for being in dangerous proximity to an attacker, where the victim is asked what she was wearing (and why), what she drank (and why).
Would it be pert ant to a robbery what a young woman's sexual habits were? No. So why would it be pertinent to any other crime? It wouldn't matter to me if she was an off duty hooker who got jumped, rape is rape is rape is rape....
But I think you know and understand all of this. I think you are the face of rape culture.
Would it be pert ant to a robbery what a young woman's sexual habits were? No. So why would it be pertinent to any other crime? It wouldn't matter to me if she was an off duty hooker who got jumped, rape is rape is rape is rape....
But I think you know and understand all of this. I think you are the face of rape culture.
3
Katie,
no, it would not be fine with me: I would be concerned, I would want to find out what had happened. But trauma, by any meaningful definition, is a consequence of an experienced and remembered painful or frightening event. As an example, coming out of general anesthesia after surgery is disconcerting, but there is no trauma associated with it.
I sympathize with the victim, but her statement can only describe her subsequent mental state. How much one is willing to mentally "torture oneself" is a subjective, open-ended thing, and in all fairness neither the criminal law nor the broader society can offer a compensation for it. It is my guess that this young woman will be able to grow out of her experience just fine. People are capable of overcoming far worse things.
So the gist of my comment is that a sexual assault is far from "soul murder" or any such thing, even less so if it is not even remembered. It undoubtedly has no place in civilized society, but the cold reality is that what is taken forcibly in a rape is given freely for love or for money, under different circumstances. And that fact belies all the overheated assertions about lifelong traumas, rape "survival" etc. I suspect that such talk is driven by sexual prudery, and it does not serve the rape victims, nor the cause of justice.
Thank you for your comment.
no, it would not be fine with me: I would be concerned, I would want to find out what had happened. But trauma, by any meaningful definition, is a consequence of an experienced and remembered painful or frightening event. As an example, coming out of general anesthesia after surgery is disconcerting, but there is no trauma associated with it.
I sympathize with the victim, but her statement can only describe her subsequent mental state. How much one is willing to mentally "torture oneself" is a subjective, open-ended thing, and in all fairness neither the criminal law nor the broader society can offer a compensation for it. It is my guess that this young woman will be able to grow out of her experience just fine. People are capable of overcoming far worse things.
So the gist of my comment is that a sexual assault is far from "soul murder" or any such thing, even less so if it is not even remembered. It undoubtedly has no place in civilized society, but the cold reality is that what is taken forcibly in a rape is given freely for love or for money, under different circumstances. And that fact belies all the overheated assertions about lifelong traumas, rape "survival" etc. I suspect that such talk is driven by sexual prudery, and it does not serve the rape victims, nor the cause of justice.
Thank you for your comment.
2
"The general rule in criminal law is that recklessness resulting from intoxication does not lessen culpability. but the A.L.I. is considering making an exception to that rule, specifically for rape law." Outrageous. And as usual, the woman will ALWAYS be considered culpable, if she's been drinking, for "allowing" herself to be sexually assaulted. "She had it coming" vs. "Hey, the poor guy didn't know what he was doing, give him a break". Give all of us a break. Thank you, victim of Brock, for your clarity and bravery.
8
Bazelon's analysis is thoughtful and informative. I agree with "California Reader" and others, though, that the root cause of this tragic and disgusting incident was the fact that the blood alcohol levels of both the college freshman and of the recent college graduate were multiples of the legal limit. Both noted that they learned how to drink heavily while they were students.
Our national educational policy needs to affirm that alcohol abuse is not one of the liberal arts. Incapacitating intoxication of students should be punished with suspension or expulsion whether or not it results in rape, road deaths, theft, or other consequential horrors.
Our national educational policy needs to affirm that alcohol abuse is not one of the liberal arts. Incapacitating intoxication of students should be punished with suspension or expulsion whether or not it results in rape, road deaths, theft, or other consequential horrors.
7
In all the talk about alcohol, and culpability and such, people might consider this:
If you, woman, girl, had fallen and struck your head and were unconscious, this man would have pulled you behind a dumpster and done this to you. If you'd fallen from low blood sugar or another ailment, he would have done this to you, too. He would not have helped you. He would not care more for you than for this young woman whom he mauled and raped. He didn't do it because she'd been drinking.
He did it because he could. That's all.
If you, woman, girl, had fallen and struck your head and were unconscious, this man would have pulled you behind a dumpster and done this to you. If you'd fallen from low blood sugar or another ailment, he would have done this to you, too. He would not have helped you. He would not care more for you than for this young woman whom he mauled and raped. He didn't do it because she'd been drinking.
He did it because he could. That's all.
37
Well said!
3
I would like to know how being intoxicated excuses Turner for the despicable things he did and at the same time puts the onus on the victim for her own rape. To repeat intoxicated rapist gets a pass. Intoxicated victim is responsible. How does that make sense?
Of course that is the argument of people in denial like Turner's parents. The problem with that paradigm is that many young men drink and do not rape. I reject the idea that drinking will cause you to do things that you would not otherwise do. I reject the argument that an unconscious young woman is responsible for Turner raping her. The Turners will have to come to realize that they brought up a young man who is entitled and feels free to take what he wants and do what he wants without consequences. He has no moral compass. That was their job and they failed utterly and completely. He may enjoy his father's ribeye steaks again one day. He may in reality serve three months or less for his crime. However, he is branded a sex offender. We know now that he is in addition to being a rapist a craven liar (regarding his prior use of drugs and alcohol), a feckless poster of intimate images (that of her breast sent to his friends) and more, or really less as his character is diminished even more as more information about him is revealed. Good luck, Brock. We all know who and what you are now. You will be in another kind of prison for the rest of your life. It is no less than you deserve.
Of course that is the argument of people in denial like Turner's parents. The problem with that paradigm is that many young men drink and do not rape. I reject the idea that drinking will cause you to do things that you would not otherwise do. I reject the argument that an unconscious young woman is responsible for Turner raping her. The Turners will have to come to realize that they brought up a young man who is entitled and feels free to take what he wants and do what he wants without consequences. He has no moral compass. That was their job and they failed utterly and completely. He may enjoy his father's ribeye steaks again one day. He may in reality serve three months or less for his crime. However, he is branded a sex offender. We know now that he is in addition to being a rapist a craven liar (regarding his prior use of drugs and alcohol), a feckless poster of intimate images (that of her breast sent to his friends) and more, or really less as his character is diminished even more as more information about him is revealed. Good luck, Brock. We all know who and what you are now. You will be in another kind of prison for the rest of your life. It is no less than you deserve.
6
During the trial, three women suggested Turner was a sexual predator. He was convicted of three felonies: sexual assault, penetrating the victim with his finger, and penetrating her with a foreign object - -a pine stick. This is not a case of a drunken man who "forgot" what he was doing. as he himself testified, he remembered the whole thing. He also had several encounters with police before arriving at Stanford, for drug and alcohol issues. SO his claim that he was a naive boy from the mid-West who found Stanford's drinking culture overwhelming is not convincing.
10
Commenters keep mentioning penetration with a pine stick...or a pine branch. There is nothing in the court record or media accounts of the trial, or the sheriff's report or the police report that mentions pine sticks or pine branch. If there is, could someone point it out? If not, shouldn't we all be outraged and/or arguing not over what has been speculated or heard, but over the facts of the case that are in the record? The "foreign" object was fingers.
3
Son has lost his appetite for ribeye steak, laments Father. Isn't that suffering enough for the fruit of my loins? The arrogance, the narcissism, the Ramsey Boltonism of this event is heart-seering.
18
The mother's letter to the judge is just as bad. She focuses on how she doesn't have the heart to hang pictures in her new house now. Not a word about the victim; it's all, "Why HIM?" as though the vicim marked out her son as the person to be assaulted by and then drag through the courts. It's amazing in its self-absorption, self-pity, and complete delusion ("my son never lies").
3
Reading over the comments I could help but see the similarity between the predatory nature of the college/fraternity drinking to try to have sex with intoxicated women culture and Bill Cosby's life long serial drug induced rapes. And Darren Sharper's rapes.
The alcohol for the college/fraternity men is a predatory practice that allows men the opportunity to rape.
The alcohol for the college/fraternity men is a predatory practice that allows men the opportunity to rape.
8
"20 minutes of action"
Dad Turner, is that ok for your wife, your daughter or your rapist son? Would a 3 month sentence be adequate if your family were the victims? Would it still be 20 minutes of action or would you see it as a lifetime of pain. And what about this go fund me type page set up (and I think now taken down) by a friend of your family to pay for poor Brock's legal expenses. I am glad the consequences are going to be with Brock Turner for the rest of his life, that sex offender emails and postcards will surround where he chooses to live. I am glad that should he marry and have children that being a sex offender will likely mean that he will be unable to attend school functions. If my boys ever did what you son did, I would be horrified, ashamed and searching my soul for what I did wrong in raising him.
Dad Turner, is that ok for your wife, your daughter or your rapist son? Would a 3 month sentence be adequate if your family were the victims? Would it still be 20 minutes of action or would you see it as a lifetime of pain. And what about this go fund me type page set up (and I think now taken down) by a friend of your family to pay for poor Brock's legal expenses. I am glad the consequences are going to be with Brock Turner for the rest of his life, that sex offender emails and postcards will surround where he chooses to live. I am glad that should he marry and have children that being a sex offender will likely mean that he will be unable to attend school functions. If my boys ever did what you son did, I would be horrified, ashamed and searching my soul for what I did wrong in raising him.
21
I'm kinda curious if this was really his first offense.
His parents and other supporters may have swept similar incidents under the rug.
Mildly curious.
His parents and other supporters may have swept similar incidents under the rug.
Mildly curious.
Bazelon hits many necessary points, and as livid as I am with the judicial system, our current social construct, and for this brave young woman...there is progress. Rape on college campuses is nothing new, many go unreported. Not because of uncertainty, but knowing there is no voice for rape victims amongst college administration. Where it ends in denial and victim-blaming. Where it's historically and statistically known for college administrations to be hush on rape as it hurts their reputation and marketability. College campuses are brands, you can't taint your brand for being unsafe to half your 'clientele,' right? This brave woman is not just a rape survivor, but a game-changer. She has led the way for other rape survivors to speak out, validate their voices, and reiterate that there is nothing to be ashamed of. BECAUSE it is not their fault. I now have friends coming out and saying they were too rape survivors. That's powerful, that's progress. I hope this young man and his family will learn what it means to see beyond their noses. This will relieve them of their own guilt. But please stop pointing fingers and finding excuses. That life is bigger and more fulfilling than enjoying your rib-eyed steaks.
Turner can also be a game-changer, and show that you CAN rebuild your life, and whatever conditioning that your parents passed down to you, that CAN change. But that's some deep personal work, and a light sentence is not suffice.
Turner can also be a game-changer, and show that you CAN rebuild your life, and whatever conditioning that your parents passed down to you, that CAN change. But that's some deep personal work, and a light sentence is not suffice.
5
He's a sexual predator. His BAL was 0.17 and he's a big guy, a champion swimmer.
His action of running way clearly depicts he knew what he was doing and that it was wrong. If he were punch drunk, he couldn't walk away, much less run away.
Also, listen to the DA Rosen, Rosen states he's a sexual predator.
Stanford did their investigation and it took them less than two weeks to bar the guy from setting foot on campus. The highest disciplinary action possible for the university.
He's a sexual predator, alright.
His action of running way clearly depicts he knew what he was doing and that it was wrong. If he were punch drunk, he couldn't walk away, much less run away.
Also, listen to the DA Rosen, Rosen states he's a sexual predator.
Stanford did their investigation and it took them less than two weeks to bar the guy from setting foot on campus. The highest disciplinary action possible for the university.
He's a sexual predator, alright.
17
He was hitting on other women aggressively all night, according to witnesses. He also lied about previous drug and alcohol use, as photo evidence proves. He changed his story from the night of the assault to the trial. Apparently he also photographed the woman's breasts and sent the picture to buddies to boast about his conquest, while she was unconscious. My understanding is that the photo has vanished but there is evidence of the text messages that accompanied it.
Yep, a predator indeed.
Yep, a predator indeed.
6
I have been a victim of sexual assault, and I also have experience with blackouts. I've also heard many many people describe that, after a night out drinking, they don't know how they ended up in a strangers bed where they were waking up, or, separately -maybe at home, why they woke up with a bloody lip or a black eye. These same people have also not remembered things they said or ways they acted while drunk and in the blackout; things that their friends would fill them in on later.
My problem with this case is that if you are in a blackout, you have no recollection of whether you consented or literally flirted and encouraged the events to happen before you passed out. Even if it is not a way you would ever act sober. And that she may have passed out after consensual sex had already begun.
To 100 percent assume that you did not consent and encourage the events when you can't remember things you did or said is a big problem to me.
My problem with this case is that if you are in a blackout, you have no recollection of whether you consented or literally flirted and encouraged the events to happen before you passed out. Even if it is not a way you would ever act sober. And that she may have passed out after consensual sex had already begun.
To 100 percent assume that you did not consent and encourage the events when you can't remember things you did or said is a big problem to me.
16
The victim's statement is truly bizarre if read with a critical eye. In it she denies her own agency at every turn. She didn't want to go to the party or even decide to, it was a last minute whim to hang with her sister. She didn't mean to get drunk to the point of blacking out and it happened because her tolerance had dropped so much since she'd been in college. She doesn't deny dancing with Brock or making out with him at the party, or leaving voluntarily with him. And then claims she can't remember any of the salient details - it's quite strange. Even worse, the 7100 word statement wait until the latter half of it to acknowledge all I just wrote. Something doesn't add up about all this to me.
11
I read every word of the 14 page letter. My own impressions and conclusions could not be more different from your own.
8
No, one misses the transformation from a woman at a frat party to a "womyn" so beloved by the feminists of the 1970s. Her complicity is discounted because she has the female anatomy, regardless of whatever volitional evidence may obtain. This episode has been coopted into a teaching moment by the fascist wing of our contemporary feminist movement, in which the womyn is above and beyond reproach and the man is inherently evil simply because he has some bizarre appendage hanging between his legs.
3
She may have volunteered to drink, and to do so to the point of passing out; however, she did not volunteer to encounter a person intent on rape who would, indeed, rape her.
The problem is the rapist. He, Turner, is a rapist. It takes a special mind to be a rapist. That is why he will be a registered sex offender at the end of his too-brief sentence.
The problem is the rapist. He, Turner, is a rapist. It takes a special mind to be a rapist. That is why he will be a registered sex offender at the end of his too-brief sentence.
4
This woman, voluntarily, of her own free will, consumed so much alcohol, that she blacked out.
That is why, taking all the circumstances into account, the sentence is reasonable.
The sentence does not condone the rape, what the sentence signifies is that partial responsibility for the consequences must rest with her.
It is for exactly the same reason that you cannot appear before a judge and plead that you T-boned my car while drunk and killed my spouse, but you bear no responsibility, because you were incapacitated by alcohol.
Any reasonable person knows, or should know, that alcohol impairs the judgment -- the more alcohol, the more impairment. The fact is that this woman, as a reasonable person, knew, or should have known, that consuming alcohol would impair her judgment.
Did she want to be raped? Of course not. Did she expect to be raped? Of course not. But it was she -- no one else -- who put herself in a situation where she could be victimized. She opened the door.
For those who deny that alcohol was a mitigating factor, I defy anyone to give an comprehensible account of what happened without admitting the effects of alcohol consumption.
Feminists, by seeking to absolve this woman of any responsibility whatsoever, are perversely returning women to the status of children. The implication is that women cannot be held accountable because they are incapable of thinking about consequences.
That is why, taking all the circumstances into account, the sentence is reasonable.
The sentence does not condone the rape, what the sentence signifies is that partial responsibility for the consequences must rest with her.
It is for exactly the same reason that you cannot appear before a judge and plead that you T-boned my car while drunk and killed my spouse, but you bear no responsibility, because you were incapacitated by alcohol.
Any reasonable person knows, or should know, that alcohol impairs the judgment -- the more alcohol, the more impairment. The fact is that this woman, as a reasonable person, knew, or should have known, that consuming alcohol would impair her judgment.
Did she want to be raped? Of course not. Did she expect to be raped? Of course not. But it was she -- no one else -- who put herself in a situation where she could be victimized. She opened the door.
For those who deny that alcohol was a mitigating factor, I defy anyone to give an comprehensible account of what happened without admitting the effects of alcohol consumption.
Feminists, by seeking to absolve this woman of any responsibility whatsoever, are perversely returning women to the status of children. The implication is that women cannot be held accountable because they are incapable of thinking about consequences.
15
This comment reflects deep ignorance of the law.
2
I don't understand your analogy here. A drunk driver who kills someone DOES HARM while intoxicated, as did Mr. Turner. The woman didn't harm anyone. She committed no crime and no illegal act, whereas Mr. Turner was underage and drunk as well.
Lots of other people at the party were, I presume, drunk; no one else was sexually assaulted that night so far as we know.
Are women also responsible for what they wear, how they walk and where they walk? Women of eighty are raped, women in wheelchairs are raped, women in burkas are raped, infants are raped, men are raped. Why single out a woman who drinks at a party and claim she bears partial responsibility for a crime committed against her?
Lots of other people at the party were, I presume, drunk; no one else was sexually assaulted that night so far as we know.
Are women also responsible for what they wear, how they walk and where they walk? Women of eighty are raped, women in wheelchairs are raped, women in burkas are raped, infants are raped, men are raped. Why single out a woman who drinks at a party and claim she bears partial responsibility for a crime committed against her?
8
Are you seriously suggesting that alcohol was a mitigating factor? Mitigating? Would you say that being high on drugs mitigated murder or robbery? If the victim was drunk would you suggest that their impaired judgment contributed to the perpetrator's crime? This is a young man who claimed to have been a wide-eyed innocent from the boondocks in Ohio, one who had never been exposed to party culture, which was disproved by evidence of drug and alcohol use in high school found on his own cellphone? A man who apparently tried to force himself on other women the week before and at this party? Her drinking in no way lessens Mr. Turner's crimes; it only explains why she was unable to escape him.
And, by the way, I am equally dismayed that young women have somehow bought in to the idea that binge drinking, hookup culture, and the hottie image are equivalent to self-assertion. Women need to be more wary of dangerous situations. But the pervasiveness of binge drinking on campuses all across the country, among both young women and young men, should not interfere with society sending clear moral messages about what is unacceptable for young men to do to young women.
And, by the way, I am equally dismayed that young women have somehow bought in to the idea that binge drinking, hookup culture, and the hottie image are equivalent to self-assertion. Women need to be more wary of dangerous situations. But the pervasiveness of binge drinking on campuses all across the country, among both young women and young men, should not interfere with society sending clear moral messages about what is unacceptable for young men to do to young women.
7
I can only hope this case does signal some kind of sea change in how women victims are treated and male excuses received. I recently read Missoula, by Jon Krakauer, and was so disturbed by the way one case ended -- the woman's walls were spattered with blood, her clothes and mattress were soaked, but because she had been drinking (as had the man), and because she cleaned up the room in horror the next morning instead of preserving it as evidence, the guy got entirely off. this was even though, if I remember rightly, the woman was so damaged she had to have vaginal stitches. I had to get the book out of my house afterwards, it felt so awful to look at the cover.
I don't understand how any man, court, or jury could possibly imagine that sex which leaves a woman in need of surgical repair, or as in the Turner case, with dirt shoved up her private parts and lacerations on her body, is consensual and "enjoyable." But from the comments, we still have a way to go with a small but vehement minority that the women were asking for it.
I don't understand how any man, court, or jury could possibly imagine that sex which leaves a woman in need of surgical repair, or as in the Turner case, with dirt shoved up her private parts and lacerations on her body, is consensual and "enjoyable." But from the comments, we still have a way to go with a small but vehement minority that the women were asking for it.
30
Now the mother has asked that her son doesn't serve jail time at all. Just in the news today but not the New York Times yet. This is a perfect example of how parents nowadays are constantly asking teachers and professors to not hold students accountable for their actions. Now parents are interfering with justice in the courts. They should be ashamed of what their son did. They are not, because from their privileged perspective they are all entitled to their whims and can do what they want without any consequences. I wonder how many times he got away with inappropriate behavior not recorded. How can the courts, and particularly the judge, ignore that not only did the victim had lacerations in her vagina, but that she also had bruises around her neck. The question is: did she really black out or did he strangled her into unconsciousness?
28
Yes, and the mother spent four pages of a rambling document to the judge talking about how she had moved into a new house but couldn't decorate it with pictures because she was so devastated, claimed her son never lied, and asked, "Why HIM?" She seems to be laboring under the delusion that this woman went to the party looking for some innocent young man to set up, by falling unconscious, having dirt and pine needles shoved up her orifice, having a photo of her bare breasts taken, and going through a humiliating trial, all to get at her intended "victim." Talk about self-absorbed, and deluded, and entitled! There isn't a single word in the letter about the victim herself.
9
The "Justice" in this story is the fact that two honorable men stumbled upon and witnessed the violation. Had that not happened, the victim would have had no justice at all. And to make matters worse, the young man's privileged status affords him protected custody for the scant few weeks he will actually serve in prison. It's not a joke, it a disgrace.
To say we are making progress is insulting! As soon as it was disclosed that males were being raped on college campuses, the powers that be got right to it and started taking measures to improve the culture of the campus, improve safety and hold the colleges accountable for providing protection for the victims, not the college itself. And, yes, that helped females too- like a back handed compliment.
For years, women being raped did not warrant such actions. It is a small baby step forward. Where are the great leaps forward in progress? Where are the morals? It is still a privileged white males world. That should make EVERYONE angry. Even a white middle class male, and especially any male of color, save Varsity Team members, would have spent much more unprotected time in prison. The judge should be censored for favoring the convict in any way. The convict deserves about as much consideration as any literature professor would have given him for that piece of fiction he called a statement. Further evidence that SAT scores, which no doubt factored heavily in his admission to Stanford, have no correlation with intellect.
To say we are making progress is insulting! As soon as it was disclosed that males were being raped on college campuses, the powers that be got right to it and started taking measures to improve the culture of the campus, improve safety and hold the colleges accountable for providing protection for the victims, not the college itself. And, yes, that helped females too- like a back handed compliment.
For years, women being raped did not warrant such actions. It is a small baby step forward. Where are the great leaps forward in progress? Where are the morals? It is still a privileged white males world. That should make EVERYONE angry. Even a white middle class male, and especially any male of color, save Varsity Team members, would have spent much more unprotected time in prison. The judge should be censored for favoring the convict in any way. The convict deserves about as much consideration as any literature professor would have given him for that piece of fiction he called a statement. Further evidence that SAT scores, which no doubt factored heavily in his admission to Stanford, have no correlation with intellect.
24
The idea that the public outrage in response to Brock Turner's sentence is progress is horrific. He should be re-sentenced, Judge Pinsky should be removed and our court systems and laws need immediate revision to not only protect women and girls, but to also send a clear message to rapists regardless of color, class, alcohol, education, athleticism, etc.
It's abhorrent to attempt to convince readers that public outrage is progress when Vice President Biden, who authored the VAWA, is as helpless as me in this case.
It's abhorrent to attempt to convince readers that public outrage is progress when Vice President Biden, who authored the VAWA, is as helpless as me in this case.
2
"The graduate students could see that the woman wasn’t moving. When they got off their bikes to intervene, Turner tried to run away."
If it was consensual then why did he run? He was convicted of rape, and rightly so. But maybe it is time to rethink the hook up culture. Maybe it's time for affirmative consent.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-reg...
If it was consensual then why did he run? He was convicted of rape, and rightly so. But maybe it is time to rethink the hook up culture. Maybe it's time for affirmative consent.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-reg...
4
To my discomfort, I initially found myself thinking 'if only the young woman had been more careful about what she drank' -- thus blaming the victim even though I think of myself as a feminist. I also felt sorry that a young man of 18 had blighted his life and understood why a parent would want to defend his 'child and said child's future'.
But then I wondered what would have happened if the victim was a young male who was unconscious and raped.
Because we expect young men to drink too much from time to time as a rite of passage sort of thing, we would be horrified. So now I am horrified at myself, and my double standard, also at the crime.
The victim's letter was a real step towards understanding the double standard that exists today, and how it impacts that victim.
But then I wondered what would have happened if the victim was a young male who was unconscious and raped.
Because we expect young men to drink too much from time to time as a rite of passage sort of thing, we would be horrified. So now I am horrified at myself, and my double standard, also at the crime.
The victim's letter was a real step towards understanding the double standard that exists today, and how it impacts that victim.
16
This is also not a justification, just an observation. Sexual assault victims opened a door when they wanted to make institutions also culpable for the actions of individuals (wanting to expose or seek compensation from schools or universities by claiming that they passively allow, actively tolerate, or fail to prosecute a "campus rape culture" or "campus drinking culture" and fail to satisfactorily punish those accused of such acts etc. ).
Now we see this turned into a defense: a young man blames the "party culture", drinking culture, social media culture, mentality of his friends, or whatever else he was trying to be a part of for popularity, for confusing him about the difference between acceptable norms and unacceptable actions. It is partly true: group norms do shift the norms (eg., gangs make gang violence acceptable, crime syndicates make crime a test of fealty, etc.).
But blaming universities for the culture of various subgroups was always a bad idea and one that has now swung around like a boomerang to the defense. Sometimes dragging in context just muddies the waters.
Now we see this turned into a defense: a young man blames the "party culture", drinking culture, social media culture, mentality of his friends, or whatever else he was trying to be a part of for popularity, for confusing him about the difference between acceptable norms and unacceptable actions. It is partly true: group norms do shift the norms (eg., gangs make gang violence acceptable, crime syndicates make crime a test of fealty, etc.).
But blaming universities for the culture of various subgroups was always a bad idea and one that has now swung around like a boomerang to the defense. Sometimes dragging in context just muddies the waters.
1
I teach at a small university. All members of the campus community are required to participate regularly in training on the implementation of the Clery Act and Title IX discrimination and harassment legislation. At every level of their college experience, students participate in discussion groups and retreats reminding them of the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption, the definition of consent and other relevant ideas. The one bright spot is this horrible story is the dramatic impact of the bystanders. Bystander intervention training is especially popular among my students. I think it makes them feel empowered to be of use to someone in a bad situation, just as the bystanders were in this rape.
21
Dan Turner, have you not heard the old saw, "A moment of folly, a lifetime of regret." Brock Turner is the living proof of it's eternal truth.
He is not the first to experience it's heavy wisdom and he will not be the last.
He is not the first to experience it's heavy wisdom and he will not be the last.
11
Folly or sociopathic opportunism?
3
This wasn't "folly." This wasn't a trivial mistake. This was a brutal assault.
2
Turner’s punishment also includes registering for life as a sex offender. “That doesn’t expire,” the victim said in court. “Just like what he did to me doesn’t expire, doesn’t go away after a set number of years. It stays with me, it’s part of my identity."
This is a desire for revenge.
In terms of emotional trauma, how does it compare to the trauma experienced by a woman who's husband divorces her after 25 years, after carrying on an affair that everyone except her knew about. If inflicting sever emotional trauma and lifelong emotional damage was a crime, surely the impact of such an affair on not only the spouse, but the entire family should be considered criminal. Are we going to start branding adulterers with scarlet As? Or restrict their access to children because of the lasting emotional damage they likely caused their kids?
The pendulum has swung too far. Putting young men who have drunken sex in the same category as violent rapists is an overreaction - just as dangerous as an underreaction. The trauma experienced by this woman had everything to do with the fact that both she and the guy were very drunk - she to the point of losing consciouness, and very little to do with the actual act of sex. It is not hard to imagine getting scratched having sex on the floor of the woods, and "microabrasions" as the result of digital penetrations are nothing hardly surprising .
This is a desire for revenge.
In terms of emotional trauma, how does it compare to the trauma experienced by a woman who's husband divorces her after 25 years, after carrying on an affair that everyone except her knew about. If inflicting sever emotional trauma and lifelong emotional damage was a crime, surely the impact of such an affair on not only the spouse, but the entire family should be considered criminal. Are we going to start branding adulterers with scarlet As? Or restrict their access to children because of the lasting emotional damage they likely caused their kids?
The pendulum has swung too far. Putting young men who have drunken sex in the same category as violent rapists is an overreaction - just as dangerous as an underreaction. The trauma experienced by this woman had everything to do with the fact that both she and the guy were very drunk - she to the point of losing consciouness, and very little to do with the actual act of sex. It is not hard to imagine getting scratched having sex on the floor of the woods, and "microabrasions" as the result of digital penetrations are nothing hardly surprising .
10
I hope you never wake up with dirt and pine needles within your body, whether you are female or male, really, "Debbie". I hope no one you truly love ever knows what that's like. You won't be comparing it with "worse" rapes or "real" rapes then. Your sympathy for a man who deliberately sexually attacked and violated a woman and left her lifelong scars from that is obscene in itself.
25
Committing adultery is no longer a crime in our country. Sexually penetrating an unconscious person is a crime in our country.
Different sets of circumstances may make people feel vengeful feelings, of course. Some of those feelings are backed up by our criminal justice system, and others are not.
Our society has made a decision that sexually penetrating the orifices of an unconscious person is a criminal act. This represents a consensus that this act is a serious enough violation of social norms and individual rights to bodily integrity to merit the involvement of the state in weighing whether to punish a perpetrator.
PS:
you appear to be questioning the facts of the case. That was the job of the jury, and the jury here unanimously decided beyond a reasonable doubt that three felonies were committed.
Most of us do not have the time or energy to explore the facts of zny case to the degree a jury can and does. For example, you seem to be unaware that, according to the defendant's own statements to police, he penetrated the victim with a pine stick when he could not get an erection.
Different sets of circumstances may make people feel vengeful feelings, of course. Some of those feelings are backed up by our criminal justice system, and others are not.
Our society has made a decision that sexually penetrating the orifices of an unconscious person is a criminal act. This represents a consensus that this act is a serious enough violation of social norms and individual rights to bodily integrity to merit the involvement of the state in weighing whether to punish a perpetrator.
PS:
you appear to be questioning the facts of the case. That was the job of the jury, and the jury here unanimously decided beyond a reasonable doubt that three felonies were committed.
Most of us do not have the time or energy to explore the facts of zny case to the degree a jury can and does. For example, you seem to be unaware that, according to the defendant's own statements to police, he penetrated the victim with a pine stick when he could not get an erection.
22
No one I know has ever drunk so much they became unconscious or have no recollection of what they did. She's lucky she didn't pass out on concrete and crack her skull open. The witnesses did not see him penetrating her at all. That was prior to their happening on the scene, and I for one, highly doubt she was unconscious at that point. Very drunk, but not unconscious. He was not quite as drunk as she was, but neither are drunk drivers who are clearly lacking in judgement.
4
The statement by the rapist's father - a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action - makes me want to say to the man - & if I shot & killed you, it would only be a split second of action, so maybe the punishment should be a day in jail!
14
Listening to the news this am, [I haven't gone searching for the source material] - what is reported is that this guy was not a naif when it came to drugs or alcohol; and that the probation report recommended light sentencing. It seems that Probation wasn't diligent in going after this guy's background; and accepted way too much about him at face. value - as did Judge Persky. Having seen his statement of "apology" in which he neither apologizes or accepts responsibility -- he is a punk who expects privileged treatment.
Bazelon is correct, tho', this huge misstep in justice for the victim, and the wide reaction to it will be read as a message to other would be rapists that they will no longer be able to get away with a wink and slap on the wrist. And a message to prosecutors to go forward.
Bazelon is correct, tho', this huge misstep in justice for the victim, and the wide reaction to it will be read as a message to other would be rapists that they will no longer be able to get away with a wink and slap on the wrist. And a message to prosecutors to go forward.
13
"A steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action." -Dan Tuner (the convicted boy's father).
I had to read Turner's statement several times before the level of sheer misogyny sunk in. "Action"? I came as close as I will probably ever come to feeling empathy for the younger Turner.
"Action"? No wonder the poor boy gets his kicks from sticking pine branches in the vaginas and anuses of unconscious girls. As ad as it is to witness "the sins of the fathers", this particular father's sin is coming home to roost, and coming home hard.
I had to read Turner's statement several times before the level of sheer misogyny sunk in. "Action"? I came as close as I will probably ever come to feeling empathy for the younger Turner.
"Action"? No wonder the poor boy gets his kicks from sticking pine branches in the vaginas and anuses of unconscious girls. As ad as it is to witness "the sins of the fathers", this particular father's sin is coming home to roost, and coming home hard.
33
I am no excuse-maker for rape, on campus or otherwise, and I think the overall tenor of the father's letter in this case is appalling.
That having been said, I think that the father's phrase "about 20 minutes of action in a life of 20 years" has been misinterpreted. I think what the father meant to convey was something more along the lines of "these were his actions of only 20 minutes in a 20-year life."
That having been said, I think that the father's phrase "about 20 minutes of action in a life of 20 years" has been misinterpreted. I think what the father meant to convey was something more along the lines of "these were his actions of only 20 minutes in a 20-year life."
9
I'm giving Mr. Turner the benefit of the doubt. I think his words were misconstrued also, but it is curious that the man is so tone-deaf that he couldn't have come up with a better phrase.
6
I suspect a key element of this case - apart from the two witnesses - is 'pine needles in the vagina' - instinctively anyone can recognise that would not be done with her consent, ergo he should go to jail.
lacking that evidence, it could have gone the way of so many others - he said, she said - one person's word against another's - impossible to prove in the absence of corroborative evidence
lacking that evidence, it could have gone the way of so many others - he said, she said - one person's word against another's - impossible to prove in the absence of corroborative evidence
15
I don't suspect, I know that without the two men who witnessed the attack, Brock wouldn't have faced any punishment. I find it discouraging that this is considered progress.
I also find it disturbing that the comments of "DebbieR" were chosen as representative of the comments on this issue. "DebbieR" made several comments that sought to excuse this man's behavior and demonize the woman for her behavior.
It is truly retrograde to excuse a criminal sex act by a man because he was drinking while blaming the victim of his crime because she too was drinking. The clear message, as one commenter put it, is: To the man: You were drunk. It's not your fault. Anyone could make that mistake. To the woman: You were drunk. It's your own fault a criminal attacked you. Didn't you know any better?
This is one of the few areas of law in this country where the perpetrators of violent crime very rarely face any kind of justice at all. That this particular case could be pointed to as progress is really disturbing in terms of where we are in this country.
We are tough on every other conceivable crime, violent or not, but rape.Our prisons are packed to capacity with non violent offenders but rapists still walk amongst us.Rape kits gather dust untested.
And THIS is progress.
I also find it disturbing that the comments of "DebbieR" were chosen as representative of the comments on this issue. "DebbieR" made several comments that sought to excuse this man's behavior and demonize the woman for her behavior.
It is truly retrograde to excuse a criminal sex act by a man because he was drinking while blaming the victim of his crime because she too was drinking. The clear message, as one commenter put it, is: To the man: You were drunk. It's not your fault. Anyone could make that mistake. To the woman: You were drunk. It's your own fault a criminal attacked you. Didn't you know any better?
This is one of the few areas of law in this country where the perpetrators of violent crime very rarely face any kind of justice at all. That this particular case could be pointed to as progress is really disturbing in terms of where we are in this country.
We are tough on every other conceivable crime, violent or not, but rape.Our prisons are packed to capacity with non violent offenders but rapists still walk amongst us.Rape kits gather dust untested.
And THIS is progress.
21
I would like to think that we are making progress and there is cause for hope. But reading the other comments makes clear that there are an awful lot of people who continue to excuse flat-out rape in favor of misogynistic victim-blaming. Women should be free to drink alcohol, to wear form-fitting clothing, to go to parties where there are men. None of that constitutes consent to sexual activity. This monster was caught raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and ran away when confronted -- and as a society, we are apparently still contemplating whether the woman is the one is at fault for this! I find that sickening, just like the loathsome father's complete lack of empathy for his son's victim, as exemplified by his belief that forcible rape of an unconscious person equates to a benign "20 minutes of action." Many commenters here similarly are so steeped in rape culture that their response to this is to attack the brave, eloquent victim for drinking too much beer, rather than condemn her unrepentant attacker for violating her in the worst way possible. I am sad to say that I feel despair rather than hope.
38
I agree. Overall, the comments depressed me to death. If these are the readers of the New York Times, what hope is there?
8
Yes, women (and men) should be free to drink alcohol. They ARE free to drink alcohol. But being free to drink alcohol comes with well-known, proven problems -- in this and in many other cases, the problem is the possibility of sexual abuse. One is not blaming or attacking the woman to point out the dangers inherent in getting drunk (women or men). Because we know that alcohol (and other drugs) can impair clear thinking, cause behavior that a person when sober might well not engage in -- what is your solution for the fact that excessive consumption of alcohol can have a profound affect on the behaviors those who get drunk? Until you can find a way to get drunk without mental/emotional impairment, being free to drink onseself under the table can have unintended consequences. To expect otherwise is to ignore the obvious.
dg
dg
6
Only one man raped a woman that night although presumably dozens of young adults were drunk: Brock Turner.
6
It's not Turner's life that should be anyone's concern. It's the next inebriated classmate or date who'll be sexually assaulted by someone who views them as fair game.
11
This case was always slam-dunk
1) Behind a dumpster
2) unconscious, UNRESPONSIVE female
3) Guy engaged in some kind of sexual activity with her
4) Guy tries to run away when accidentally discovered by 2 others
Reality-Check: Even as a male, I learned early in my teens tp never, ever to get so drunk that I was going to 'pass-out' in any environment that I wouldn't be completely in control of
BEST-CASE DOWNSIDE: Pranks where people shave your head bald, or other such fun
More Likely, wake up with watch, wallet, keys, & whatever missing
1) Behind a dumpster
2) unconscious, UNRESPONSIVE female
3) Guy engaged in some kind of sexual activity with her
4) Guy tries to run away when accidentally discovered by 2 others
Reality-Check: Even as a male, I learned early in my teens tp never, ever to get so drunk that I was going to 'pass-out' in any environment that I wouldn't be completely in control of
BEST-CASE DOWNSIDE: Pranks where people shave your head bald, or other such fun
More Likely, wake up with watch, wallet, keys, & whatever missing
9
The Stanford case, as with so many others, involves young men and women rapt in socializing that requires copious amounts of alcohol (and in many cases, drugs). If this conviction represents progress, it is not in the arena of imbibing into loss of self-control, unconsciousness and young men whose hormone-driven egos and impulses lead to sexual abuse. When human nature is plied with alcohol or drugs, predictible things happen to even the "best and brightest." Fraternities, sororities, socialization of often new-found freedom from restrictions -- these aspects of college life are not new, and the rampant examples of excessive drinking ending in sexual abuse and even death are not likely to be modified because of the Stanford scandal. Future college students must be counseled: Buyer Beware. But tradition is a powerful force. It seems the more things change, the more they remain the same.
Doug Giebel
Big Sandy, Montana
Doug Giebel
Big Sandy, Montana
7
Shame on her sister for leaving her there.
5
Here's a creative twist – – yet another party to blame who is not in fact the perpetrator!
13
What a cruel comment. You weren't there. You have absolutely no idea how or why they were separated. Why not focus your outrage on the person at fault, the man who raped her.
13
Was this rape? She was unconscious? There was no semen found. Its a passed out woman and a man simulating sex on top of her.
My room mate was living in New York in the 1990s. She walked her dog was hit over the head with a baseball bat, dragged into a side street and violently raped in an alley. She had HIV tests, and spent a week in hospital. That was rape. The police made no effort to find the offender. She had post traumatic stress for years. Probably still does.
My room mate was living in New York in the 1990s. She walked her dog was hit over the head with a baseball bat, dragged into a side street and violently raped in an alley. She had HIV tests, and spent a week in hospital. That was rape. The police made no effort to find the offender. She had post traumatic stress for years. Probably still does.
7
Sexual assault -- penetration of vagina by fingers and with a stick without consent.
You don't have to spend a week in the hospital for it to be rape or sexual assault.
You don't have to spend a week in the hospital for it to be rape or sexual assault.
45
Lawyer mom, you're right and scientella's comment was unsophisticated, to say the least. But we have to find a way to talk somewhat rationally about differences in rape cases. Surely, just as there are different levels of homicide - all of which call for punishment under the law - we could talk about different "levels" (better word, please) of rape. The problem is, the subjective experience of a more minor sexual assault can be just as traumatizing for one woman as the experience of a more violent assault is for another woman. But I can't equate the actions of Brock Turner with the actions of the man who climbed in my window at 4 a.m. with a rope and a knife. I can't make myself think Brock Turner should get the same sentence he did. And we can't hand out sentences based on what the crime felt like to the victim. We can ache for her, but we can't conduct justice that way.
10
scientella, you are not the first to point to what you view as a "real" victim of rape. You are an example of the problem. Rape is viewed as just a cost of doing business when women dare to live their lives with the misconception that they have full agency and that no one has the right to violently attack them no matter what state they are in.
So to echo other comments, including my own, does your opinion change is she is unconscious as the result of seizure? If he drugged her? (happens all the time, still her fault?)
Apparently a club rendering a woman unconscious reaches your high level of proof that a man is at fault but the law makes no distinction in how a person is rendered unconscious. The law states that you may not engage in sexual activity with an unconscious person.
Your opinion does not meet the standard of the law. It does, however, shine a light on how seemingly educated people like the Stanford educated judge can find room to excuse such activities if they can find any reason at all to blame the victim rather than the criminal.
Your depiction of yourself as a nun (pic beside name) lecturing women on proper deportment is offensive. Your object is to victim shame. Not very Christlike, sir or madam.
Shame on you.
So to echo other comments, including my own, does your opinion change is she is unconscious as the result of seizure? If he drugged her? (happens all the time, still her fault?)
Apparently a club rendering a woman unconscious reaches your high level of proof that a man is at fault but the law makes no distinction in how a person is rendered unconscious. The law states that you may not engage in sexual activity with an unconscious person.
Your opinion does not meet the standard of the law. It does, however, shine a light on how seemingly educated people like the Stanford educated judge can find room to excuse such activities if they can find any reason at all to blame the victim rather than the criminal.
Your depiction of yourself as a nun (pic beside name) lecturing women on proper deportment is offensive. Your object is to victim shame. Not very Christlike, sir or madam.
Shame on you.
19
I wanted to see what the writer the author quotes on blackouts had to say. Here is the bone-chilling first chapter:
"I'm on top of a guy I've never seen before, and we're having sex.
Hold on. Can this be right? I'm having sex with a man, and I've never seen him before. ...But I seem to be enjoying it. I'm making all the right sounds.
... I continue my erotic pantomime. I wonder if I should be worried right now, but I'm not scared. I don't mean to suggest I'm brave. I mean to suggest you could break a piece of plywood over my head, and I would smile, nod, and keep going....
'I should go' I tell him.
He gives an annoyed laugh. 'You just said you wanted to stay.'
So I stay...
... A blackout is: What happened last night? Who are you, and why are we f***ing?"
That's a shockingly honest opener (meant to be self-deprecatingly funny, and yet imminently serious, and meant to be about alcohol and not rape. But in a heartbeat, the above scene could be easily turned into rape. Maybe this victim was in this state before passing out (between incoherent phone calls and being found by passers by). Maybe the young man was in a degree of this state also, though not quite as non-compos and then jolted into reality by fear.
It isn't victim blaming to want to point that possibility out, as an admonition to all young men and women.
"I'm on top of a guy I've never seen before, and we're having sex.
Hold on. Can this be right? I'm having sex with a man, and I've never seen him before. ...But I seem to be enjoying it. I'm making all the right sounds.
... I continue my erotic pantomime. I wonder if I should be worried right now, but I'm not scared. I don't mean to suggest I'm brave. I mean to suggest you could break a piece of plywood over my head, and I would smile, nod, and keep going....
'I should go' I tell him.
He gives an annoyed laugh. 'You just said you wanted to stay.'
So I stay...
... A blackout is: What happened last night? Who are you, and why are we f***ing?"
That's a shockingly honest opener (meant to be self-deprecatingly funny, and yet imminently serious, and meant to be about alcohol and not rape. But in a heartbeat, the above scene could be easily turned into rape. Maybe this victim was in this state before passing out (between incoherent phone calls and being found by passers by). Maybe the young man was in a degree of this state also, though not quite as non-compos and then jolted into reality by fear.
It isn't victim blaming to want to point that possibility out, as an admonition to all young men and women.
9
Rapists will rape anytime they have a chance. It doesn't matter whether you're drunk, or sick, or fallen, or just smaller, or sometimes a child. You can be raped walking in a parking lot, be pulled into an alley of a side street, have someone break into your house at night.
So admonish if you want. And tell people that they shouldn't get drunk because they can't fight off a rapist that way. But the problem is not the drinking, and not drinking won't fix it. The problem is that rapists rape, and second to that, when they do, people look everywhere else for "explanations" and excuses, and many times the rapists aren't even turned in because we know that already.
So admonish if you want. And tell people that they shouldn't get drunk because they can't fight off a rapist that way. But the problem is not the drinking, and not drinking won't fix it. The problem is that rapists rape, and second to that, when they do, people look everywhere else for "explanations" and excuses, and many times the rapists aren't even turned in because we know that already.
2
An additional piece of information from legal papers filed in the case is being widely reported by the media today.
There is apparently emerging evidence that the defendant in this case, who himself admitted to lifting or taking off the conscious victim's top in order to fondle her breasts, also took a picture of her breasts and shared it with swim team friends through a group messaging app. It has been reported today that there is both electronic evidence of this as well as the statementyo police of a passing witness (not one of the Swedish grad students).
This brought to mind the actions of the Connecticut home invader/rapist/murderer/arsonist in the Petit case who took cell photos of the vagina of his tied-up 13-year-old victim and sent them to acquaintances before raping her. Have you really bagged your game if you go home without a trophy?
Psychiatry has a term to describe people who, given the opportunity, are capable of treating other people in this manner:
sociopaths.
There is apparently emerging evidence that the defendant in this case, who himself admitted to lifting or taking off the conscious victim's top in order to fondle her breasts, also took a picture of her breasts and shared it with swim team friends through a group messaging app. It has been reported today that there is both electronic evidence of this as well as the statementyo police of a passing witness (not one of the Swedish grad students).
This brought to mind the actions of the Connecticut home invader/rapist/murderer/arsonist in the Petit case who took cell photos of the vagina of his tied-up 13-year-old victim and sent them to acquaintances before raping her. Have you really bagged your game if you go home without a trophy?
Psychiatry has a term to describe people who, given the opportunity, are capable of treating other people in this manner:
sociopaths.
78
The evidence is not "emerging" as in "new evidence is being found." It is newly being made known to the media, but was known to the relevant parties from the beginning. However, it couldn't be proven in court. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course. Would love to keep the mob fury roped to facts rather than rumors. Help out?
1
I thought that the text message accompanying the photo still existed, but not the photo itself?
1
"Roping in the mob fury" is going to require something we can't accomplish: getting rid of the Internet. The Internet does not abide by the rules of evidence.
Some say, "This kid deserves life in prision [sic] for what he did." The problem with many comments here and elsewhere is that people react to this as though there was only one category of rape when, in fact, there are almost 20 different categories applicable to the circumstances (at least in NY) ranging from sexual misconduct, which involves intercourse, but is a misdemeanor, to rape in the 1st degree, which is a felony. I'm sure the judge in California had a similar range of possibilities from which to choose. Many are reacting as though this was rape in the 1st degree, which it is clearly not. Many are in high dudgeon who would better understand the situation if they cooled off and realized that this was a tragedy for both participants.
8
The victim was not a 'participant' in any meaningful sense of that word.
10
Of course, perpetrators should be caught and punished. But when you are dealing with intoxication and sex, there are the built-in
complications of incomplete memories and differing interpretations of intent and consent. To establish if a driver is too drunk to be behind the wheel, all it takes is a quick test to see if his or her blood alcohol exceeds the legal limit. There isn’t such clarity when it comes to alcohol and sex. According to “Prosecuting Alcohol- Facilitated Sexual Assault,” a study by the National District Attorneys Association: “Generally, there is not a bright-line test for showing that the victim was too intoxicated to consent, thereby distinguishing sexual assault from drunken sex.
complications of incomplete memories and differing interpretations of intent and consent. To establish if a driver is too drunk to be behind the wheel, all it takes is a quick test to see if his or her blood alcohol exceeds the legal limit. There isn’t such clarity when it comes to alcohol and sex. According to “Prosecuting Alcohol- Facilitated Sexual Assault,” a study by the National District Attorneys Association: “Generally, there is not a bright-line test for showing that the victim was too intoxicated to consent, thereby distinguishing sexual assault from drunken sex.
8
Doesn't apply. The vicim was passed out, not drunk & giggling.
11
music ink, "generally," and legally, loss of consciousness is a bright-line test. Your logic fails.
6
it is a felony under California law to sexually assault an unconscious person, who is incapable of consent. The woman was unconscious, not moving, when the Swedish graduate students saw her, and did not wake up in the hospital until several hours later.
6
Turner, the rapist, didn't even remotely take responsibility for his actions.
His reference to 'promiscuity' is dog-whistle victim shaming.
His reference to 'promiscuity' is dog-whistle victim shaming.
30
being a defendant in a criminal case tends to make people say whatever they can think of to save their own skin. Expecting anything else is absurd.
1
Did he actually say "promiscuity?" I don't think we know this. It's unclear. She put the word in quotation marks, so it does look like he said it, but this is a victim's statement, not a court transcript. Would love to clear that one up. (not that he couldn't have insinuated it without saying the word - just, the word matters). By the way, I'm not trying to discredit her. I don't have any reason to think she's discreditable anyway. But I'm nitpicky about facts, especially when it comes to criminal justice.
2
Yes, we do know that Brock Turner specifically cited "a culture of sexual promiscuity" at Stanford as the cause, among other causes apart from his own choices, of what he called "the events of [DATE]" in the letter he drafted and read to the court in an effort to mitigate his sentence. The letter is easily accessed. In it, Brock Turner does not own personal responsibility but instead appears to blame everything but the houses of the moon for the decision he made that night. From a lawyer's perspective, his letter is almost as bad as his father's. You would think they were both working for the prosecution!
This is the same letter, now factually contradicted by reams of Facebook material all over the Internet, in which the defendant claimed to be a stranger to party culture who "really had no" experience with partying, drinking or drugs back in small town Ohio. If you are a sharp-eyed lawyer or judge, it's the modifier "really" that should catch your attention. Apparently it did not catch the attention of Judge Persky, who appears to have taken the defendant at his word during the sentencing phase.
This is the same letter, now factually contradicted by reams of Facebook material all over the Internet, in which the defendant claimed to be a stranger to party culture who "really had no" experience with partying, drinking or drugs back in small town Ohio. If you are a sharp-eyed lawyer or judge, it's the modifier "really" that should catch your attention. Apparently it did not catch the attention of Judge Persky, who appears to have taken the defendant at his word during the sentencing phase.
3
There is no progress here. This case only got so far because it had concrete evidence of a crime: the nurse confirming lacerations and bruises, two witnesses who caught Brock running away, and immediate police arrival on the scene. How many people accused of sexual assault (especially on college campuses) actually get convicted - without witnesses who tackled them as they ran away or medical reports conducted immediately after the assault? You offer up as evidence of progress what is actually the sad reality: without concrete evidence, many sexual assault cases never extend beyond initial police investigations. If nobody had found them behind the dumpster, the case could have easily been a "he said - she said" and Brock could have kept his fast swimming times and eaten his snacks while a campus inquiry concludes with ordering Brock to attend a class on underage drinking.
21
Consensual intoxication by Turner (or anyone) is exactly that - consensual. Perhaps the doctrine should be extended to say that anyone who CHOOSES to get wasted in any way abdicates their right to an impaired-judgement exception for any crime. Culpability increases, legally.
Obvious exception - prescription medication, taken as directed.
As undeniable as Turner's guilt was, this sentence is truly an insult.
Flip side - I have a close relative who basically had Emily Doe's (victim here) experience in nearly identical circumstances - quite intoxicated, a traumatic rape, but this time without any witnesses. Prosecution was declined, in part because of her own blackout intoxication. She's understandably incredibly angry at her powerlessness. As are we all.
In a perfectly ethical, moral world, the "she asked for it" exception that's actually the rule wouldn't exist. But in this real world - women, please-- it's just not as safe as it ought to be. Please don't put yourself into this situation by abetting your own victimization. All it takes is one bad apple. And there are a lot more than one out there. Sad and infuriating but true. And the deck is stacked against you after the fact.
Obvious exception - prescription medication, taken as directed.
As undeniable as Turner's guilt was, this sentence is truly an insult.
Flip side - I have a close relative who basically had Emily Doe's (victim here) experience in nearly identical circumstances - quite intoxicated, a traumatic rape, but this time without any witnesses. Prosecution was declined, in part because of her own blackout intoxication. She's understandably incredibly angry at her powerlessness. As are we all.
In a perfectly ethical, moral world, the "she asked for it" exception that's actually the rule wouldn't exist. But in this real world - women, please-- it's just not as safe as it ought to be. Please don't put yourself into this situation by abetting your own victimization. All it takes is one bad apple. And there are a lot more than one out there. Sad and infuriating but true. And the deck is stacked against you after the fact.
9
Unfortunately, you are correct. There are all kinds of predators out there. Keep in mind, though, the innocence of being 22. You think you're immortal and that all people are basically good.
Many aspects of the vilification of Brock Turner bother me. It is almost as if he is being used as a way to distance Americans from the light flashed on the culture within their most prestigious universities and communities. It's not all Brock Turner. He makes it easy to say not my son or daughter, all in the name of the victim and protecting women. So many things were wrong here and at that party. Going after the judge, the parents. him, make it easy to think the problem doesn't belong to you and yours. Easier to judge rappers and unwed mothers, welfare queens then the behavior of our own kids. How many Brock Turners and victims were in that frat house that night? Just him and her. I doubt it. How many are getting ready to drink and hook up tonight as fun? It's enough, no one wins by joyfully watching and participating in this type of stoning and blood bath, which we vilify in other societies. Who is this making feel better but ourselves?
10
"Hooking up" and penetrating an unconscious person incapable of giving consent are not the same thing. Only the second is a crime.
8
Emily, I appreciate the larger point you are making but I'm confused by your use of the phrase "legal limit" in reference to the victim's blood alcohol level. Isn't this concept something that refers to driving, something she was not doing? I am unaware of a legal limit for drinking other than age or driving. The victim, unlike the perpetrator, was over the legal drinking age and she was not driving so your reference to "legal limit" unmodified doesn't make any sense.
16
The 21 year old drinking age in America is archaic. Because of it underage drinking related crimes and critical medical conditions go unreported. Residential campus life in America can be a license for puerile behaviour. In the countries where I have lived, Australia and Holland, students often commute between their own family homes and University. Needless to say there would be a strong force of accountability to oneself if one had to a) get in a car and turn the key in the ignition and drive home and b) face one's parents. If a child has already exhibited substance abuse and other questionable behaviours in High School, that child should go to a local community college. Talented athletes often blind their parents and those around them as to the importance of their prowess.
2
If he was too intoxication to know that climbing unto that girl without consent was wrong, then why did he run. the fact that he ran shows that he knew his actions were wrong.
26
The witnesses weren't clear on what they were seeing, and had no idea if she passed out because she had been beaten senseless or was severely drunk.
We are a highly punitive society, especially, I think compared to Scandinavian countries, and I wonder how these students will feel looking back years later at the consequences experienced by Brock Turner after being labeled a sex offender. I am pretty sure nothing of this kind exists in Sweden, and that they treat even worse criminals as people who deserve second chances, and have prisons that are geared not at humiliating people but rehabilitation.
We are a highly punitive society, especially, I think compared to Scandinavian countries, and I wonder how these students will feel looking back years later at the consequences experienced by Brock Turner after being labeled a sex offender. I am pretty sure nothing of this kind exists in Sweden, and that they treat even worse criminals as people who deserve second chances, and have prisons that are geared not at humiliating people but rehabilitation.
3
I am pretty sure they won't regret saving an unconscious woman who was unresponsive when medics appeared from more of what she was enduring.
4
Your implication is that the Swedes should feel guilty, or that THEY did something wrong. All they did was pull Turner off of an unconscious person and hold him for the police. Turner did everything else, and was tried and convicted for it. I guess we don't need to wonder what you would do if you stumbled upon a similar situation. The victim was lucky to have the Swedes.
3
I wish that I could see the Brock Turner conviction as progress, but it seems to have resulted from the blind luck of two unsuspecting and heroic witnesses coming upon a grotesque scene that plays out on college campuses all too often. When a similar assault happened on my own college campus in the 80's, the grand jury declined to indict and the perpetrator went on to become a partner at a law firm. The same sickening stream of questions was asked by the defense attorneys because the questions have unfortunate traction in a sexist society -- what was she wearing, how much did she have to drink, why was she out so late? The female victim was ritualistically put on trial, and the resulting micarriage of justice was seared into my mind as the most formative experience from my college days. While out the other evening, a male friend expressed the view that the victim in this case should have known what was likey to happen if she got drunk in a fraternity atmosphere. In other words, she was to blame. Sadly, these views persist even though it should be obvious that no young person would expect to be assaulted on an otherwise safe campus among fellow undergrads. Viewing a passed out girl as a sexual opportunity does not result from drunkeness, but from the all too prevalent view that girls who let their guard down are "asking for it" because "boys will be boys."
24
jnyc wrote: "Viewing a passed out girl as a sexual opportunity does not result from drunkeness, but from the all too prevalent view that girls who let their guard down are 'asking for it' because 'boys will be boys.' "
I do not think this is how boys and men see it. I think they see that this is about sex (with sex being defined from the male perspective); sex is an act of physical relief and not love; and surely girls and women feel the same way. So if one wakes up naked next to an also naked female, then, say the boys and men, why not have "sex"?
A college can do all the rape prevention counseling it wants. I do not think said counseling will change the fact that the odds seem to favor the boys, when it comes to the boys avoiding a charge of rape. Add in that, as a factual matter, girls and women are having more consensual sexual partners in their lifetimes than at any other time in history, and we have these difficult situations, destroying two people's lives.
I just can't give the woman a free pass here and feel honest at the same time.
I do not think this is how boys and men see it. I think they see that this is about sex (with sex being defined from the male perspective); sex is an act of physical relief and not love; and surely girls and women feel the same way. So if one wakes up naked next to an also naked female, then, say the boys and men, why not have "sex"?
A college can do all the rape prevention counseling it wants. I do not think said counseling will change the fact that the odds seem to favor the boys, when it comes to the boys avoiding a charge of rape. Add in that, as a factual matter, girls and women are having more consensual sexual partners in their lifetimes than at any other time in history, and we have these difficult situations, destroying two people's lives.
I just can't give the woman a free pass here and feel honest at the same time.
1
The woman was abused, assaulted, and scarred for life, Ben's Ghost. Do you think you need to "honestly" refuse to give her a "free pass" for having drunk more than she ought? Or do you think the "punishment" of having a rapist attack her might've been justice enough to satisfy you such that you might refrain from judgment? I've been drunk a lot and never suffered more than a hangover. I can only imagine what you think ought to happen to me.
1
The considerable outrage pertaining to the failure of many institutions, the military, churches, college campuses, as well as the judicial system, to provide protection and justice for victims of sexual assault is valid. To view this case as emblematic of the history of injustice is not. I agree with Scott Herhold in The Mercury News "There is a temptation to see the Turner case as a chance to send a message, rather than to weigh all the messy human elements involved."
Alcohol induced blackout is one of those elements and I appreciate reference to that in this piece. "Pre-gaming", a practice of quickly consuming several shots of alcohol before going to an event, which fits this woman's testimony, is a dangerous aspect of this culture. Herhold also says "... it's hard to review this case without concluding that it has roots in a culture of campus drinking, the unindicted coconspirator here." Read in their entirety not just inflammatory excerpts, the letter of Mr. Turner and his father, make legitimate reference to this cultural influence and both acknowledge, as they should, his full responsibility, remorse for his actions and the suffering he caused.
The woman's situation would inspire more sympathy from me if she relinquished her anonymity and took full responsibility for her alcohol induced blackout as a real contributory factor. As a woman/feminist I am responsible for myself, for not consuming so much alcohol that I put myself and others at risk.
Alcohol induced blackout is one of those elements and I appreciate reference to that in this piece. "Pre-gaming", a practice of quickly consuming several shots of alcohol before going to an event, which fits this woman's testimony, is a dangerous aspect of this culture. Herhold also says "... it's hard to review this case without concluding that it has roots in a culture of campus drinking, the unindicted coconspirator here." Read in their entirety not just inflammatory excerpts, the letter of Mr. Turner and his father, make legitimate reference to this cultural influence and both acknowledge, as they should, his full responsibility, remorse for his actions and the suffering he caused.
The woman's situation would inspire more sympathy from me if she relinquished her anonymity and took full responsibility for her alcohol induced blackout as a real contributory factor. As a woman/feminist I am responsible for myself, for not consuming so much alcohol that I put myself and others at risk.
15
Drinking alcohol is not contributing to your own rape.
8
Why do you say her passing out caused her to be raped? Had she passed out alone in her own bedroom in her own apartment, it wouldn't have been an issue, would it? Her only mistake was trusting this misanthrope, and that's no crime.
Sexually forcing yourself upon an unconscious person is.
Sexually forcing yourself upon an unconscious person is.
4
Ms. Bazelon, You need to make clear that the victim's BAL was 3 times the legal limit for DRIVING. Otherwise, you imply she did something illegal simply by being that drunk. She was, obviously, not driving and is of legal drinking age.
17
Unequal privilege before the law, was provided to the victim not the defendant in this case and it is the fault of the lawmakers who created a law that has inequality before the law as its essence. Saying a woman cannot give consent to sexual stimulation when she is intoxicated, but demanding that an equally intoxicated man can discern that a woman is intoxicated when she agrees to sexual stimulation, and that he is guilty of a felony if he proceeds is self-evident inequality before the law and therefore unconstitutional on its face.
But this does not mean that Turner was innocent. When he ignored the fact that Ms. Doe had passed out and lay helplessly unconscious, he had the responsibility to help her: she could have had a heart attack, stroke or other catastrophe as the cause of her unconsciousness and he had a human duty to assist her and seek emergency medical support, but he ignored that duty and instead of acting like a decent human being, he decided to act like a sleazy sewer rat and dry-hump away, ignoring the plight and human dignity of the unconscious woman beneath him. And for this he deserves to be punished.
But he did not rape Ms. Doe and for that reason the prosecutor had to drop the rape charge and Turner was not convicted of rape. To call him a rapist, as so many continue to do, is untrue; a malicious self-indulgent, culture war lie. His crime was reckless, depraved and damaging disregard for human life and that's what he should have been charged with.
But this does not mean that Turner was innocent. When he ignored the fact that Ms. Doe had passed out and lay helplessly unconscious, he had the responsibility to help her: she could have had a heart attack, stroke or other catastrophe as the cause of her unconsciousness and he had a human duty to assist her and seek emergency medical support, but he ignored that duty and instead of acting like a decent human being, he decided to act like a sleazy sewer rat and dry-hump away, ignoring the plight and human dignity of the unconscious woman beneath him. And for this he deserves to be punished.
But he did not rape Ms. Doe and for that reason the prosecutor had to drop the rape charge and Turner was not convicted of rape. To call him a rapist, as so many continue to do, is untrue; a malicious self-indulgent, culture war lie. His crime was reckless, depraved and damaging disregard for human life and that's what he should have been charged with.
8
I just wanted to clarify that Mr. Turner's BAC was about .15, which was formerly the legal safe-driving limit. With a BAC at that level one typically displays some decreased fine motor coordination but is still capable of making rational decisions. Ms. Doe's BAC was measured at .24, and she was stone-cold passed out for more than three hours.
2
Turner was not "equally intoxicated." He had less alcohol in his blood than she did, and he's 6 foot 3, which means that a particular quantity affects him less than it does a smaller woman.
Technical definitions of rape vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and "sexual assault with a foreign object," of which he was convicted, is a form of rape, called assault to distinguish it from penile rape. It is punishable exactly the same as penile rape.
Technical definitions of rape vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and "sexual assault with a foreign object," of which he was convicted, is a form of rape, called assault to distinguish it from penile rape. It is punishable exactly the same as penile rape.
4
Unstated is the issue of whether he should even have been charged as an adult, given his age? The woman receives a full ride as she was over 21. Ironic so many are clapping a "rich white boy" got his when American history on rape is the laws have less to do with any type of assault, much less sexual, than as a means for targeting minorities, particularly African Americans. Review American legal history of those executed for rape, and you will find almost all are African Americans, but, surprise, even with rigid segregation, all of them were alleged to have raped a white woman. And, of course, no man has ever been executed for raping a black woman. Agree with his father, a lifetime as, you can't make this up, a sex offender for 20 minutes as a 20 year old. A fellow employee of my son is one of those accused in the Duke lacrosse case, Fantastic Lies. And as a court reporter I took part of a case where 3 black men were on trial for life for a rape which never occurred. Fortunately, unlike in almost the entire US, they had competent dedicated counsel since they were in the army. A 9 month trial ended in 6 minutes with the Not Guilty verdict.
3
"ironic so many are clapping a 'rich white boy' got his"
Are you confused? The rich white boy DIDN'T get his.
Are you confused? The rich white boy DIDN'T get his.
7
The elephant in the room that needs addressing is that both male and female students drink too much at these parties. Two and three times over the limit for each of them is shocking!
10
I understand the actions of the potential jurors who stated their objections to sitting as jurors in a case to be overseen by Judge Persky.
While I am not a fan of "railroading" judges (nor, I should add, am I a fan of any system of electing judges, as exists in Santa Clara County), it is obvious that many potential jurors will be unable to serve in cases to be overseen by a judge who has become notorious.
Based on the evidence in the rape case as reported, I myself would unable to muster sufficient respect for Judge Persky to serve fairly as a juror in his courtroom. Would I be able to accept without question his management of the trial and his explanation of the legal standards to be applied? I'm not at all sure. If I were a prospective juror in the voir dire process in Judge Persky's courtroom, it would be my duty to make my doubts plain.
While I am not a fan of "railroading" judges (nor, I should add, am I a fan of any system of electing judges, as exists in Santa Clara County), it is obvious that many potential jurors will be unable to serve in cases to be overseen by a judge who has become notorious.
Based on the evidence in the rape case as reported, I myself would unable to muster sufficient respect for Judge Persky to serve fairly as a juror in his courtroom. Would I be able to accept without question his management of the trial and his explanation of the legal standards to be applied? I'm not at all sure. If I were a prospective juror in the voir dire process in Judge Persky's courtroom, it would be my duty to make my doubts plain.
9
What seems unique about this case is that the rape was witnessed by
two men who apprehended the rapist. This is not the usual he-said she-said situation. Also the evidence found on the victim. That two male Swedish grad students recognized that a woman's rights were violated tells me that our American culture needs to catch up with Sweden. I have not heard of another case in the U.S. where a rapist was apprehended by men, although
it is likely that rapes are witnessed at frat parties.
two men who apprehended the rapist. This is not the usual he-said she-said situation. Also the evidence found on the victim. That two male Swedish grad students recognized that a woman's rights were violated tells me that our American culture needs to catch up with Sweden. I have not heard of another case in the U.S. where a rapist was apprehended by men, although
it is likely that rapes are witnessed at frat parties.
14
So in other words, another privileged person lacking a moral compass is given a Get Out of Jail card and his victim is denied justice.
10
Righteous outrage, like alcohol, can cloud minds. And incapacitation won't excuse us when we do something bad.
One bad result is the hounding of character witnesses for the defense ( http://nyti.ms/1XFxWlD ). If the judge wrongly credited their letters, blame the judge. But we won't have fair trials unless witnesses can speak without repercussions (except for perjury). Just as it's bad when the Mafia intimidates prosecution witnesses, it's bad when crowds intimidate defense witnesses. We won't have confidence in verdicts or sentences, if they're not obtained despite the best possible defense. That means letting defense lawyers make arguments (even if offensive), and letting defense witnesses speak without fear of punishment.
One bad result is the hounding of character witnesses for the defense ( http://nyti.ms/1XFxWlD ). If the judge wrongly credited their letters, blame the judge. But we won't have fair trials unless witnesses can speak without repercussions (except for perjury). Just as it's bad when the Mafia intimidates prosecution witnesses, it's bad when crowds intimidate defense witnesses. We won't have confidence in verdicts or sentences, if they're not obtained despite the best possible defense. That means letting defense lawyers make arguments (even if offensive), and letting defense witnesses speak without fear of punishment.
9
It is blatant sexism for the ALI to want to make an exception for rape to intoxication as a defense. Men should be afraid of the rape that will encounter in prison if they rape or sexually assault women. Brock Turner should have been sent to such a prison.
The only thing exceptional about rape as crime is its especial heinousness, third only to murder and kidnaping. It is actually a kind of kidnapping.
A rapist has to have the mindset of a rapist when sober to commit the crime when intoxicated.
The only thing exceptional about rape as crime is its especial heinousness, third only to murder and kidnaping. It is actually a kind of kidnapping.
A rapist has to have the mindset of a rapist when sober to commit the crime when intoxicated.
4
What is very sad is the speed in which men rally to the side of the men in theses kinds of cases. Most men will cry "consent" because they know they are guilty and by saying it was consensual they can obfuscate the issue and in most cases get away with it.
It's analogous to white police officers saying they "feared their lives were in danger" when asked for an explanation of why the black male "suspect" is lying on the ground full of bullet holes. Theses are formulaic words and phases that are plugged in to get away with crimes when one's career is on the line.
We still live in a society where star athletes can get away with rape. Yes he was convicted, but the sentence didn't fit the crime. And how many people really believe a black man who is not a star athlete would garner a sentiment such as "it will ruin his life to sentence him more than six months"? Really? The judge really said that?
I don't envy being a young woman in sexual assault cases, because men identify with the accused; many girls blame other girls, and older women tend to be a woman's worst ally on juries. But hopefully this case changed a lot of that, and was a wake up call for many.
It's analogous to white police officers saying they "feared their lives were in danger" when asked for an explanation of why the black male "suspect" is lying on the ground full of bullet holes. Theses are formulaic words and phases that are plugged in to get away with crimes when one's career is on the line.
We still live in a society where star athletes can get away with rape. Yes he was convicted, but the sentence didn't fit the crime. And how many people really believe a black man who is not a star athlete would garner a sentiment such as "it will ruin his life to sentence him more than six months"? Really? The judge really said that?
I don't envy being a young woman in sexual assault cases, because men identify with the accused; many girls blame other girls, and older women tend to be a woman's worst ally on juries. But hopefully this case changed a lot of that, and was a wake up call for many.
12
Judge Persky concluded that a lengthy prison sentence would "have a severe impact" on Turner.
Turner raped an unconscious person behind a dumpster. Shouldn't the punishment have a severe impact on the rapist?
The defense is working on an appeal, too bad he can't be re-sentenced.
Turner raped an unconscious person behind a dumpster. Shouldn't the punishment have a severe impact on the rapist?
The defense is working on an appeal, too bad he can't be re-sentenced.
16
He has preserved his right to appeal, as is standard, but he would be a fool to do so. If he won his appeal (unlikely in any event), he would be tried again and sentenced fresh. The chance that he would be given another massage on the wrist the second time around are slim to nonexistent.
5
I wrote a comment earlier that apparently the Times staff did not find appropriate to print. Nevertheless, another commenter in this forum, "Am" from New York expresses my feelings precisely, and frames it better than I did. I suggest everyone reads it; Brock Turner is Not a "rapist" in the sense that many of you believe. And had those two cyclists not intervened, the victim would wake up with a hangover and the realization that she shouldn't get so drunk in the future, but she wouldn't be so traumatized.
3
The comments of "Am" are run of the mill victim-blaming, without even a fresh twist. His or her views are also contrary to long-established law.
6
Lawyer mom,
You seem to like just making stuff up. I said nothing about what the law is or what the law should be. I made no assertion at all that Turner's victim is in any way to blame.
You've also asserted that Turner's conviction involved the use of a stick, which is simply untrue. His actions were despicable enough that you need not enhance them to justify your outrage.
You seem to like just making stuff up. I said nothing about what the law is or what the law should be. I made no assertion at all that Turner's victim is in any way to blame.
You've also asserted that Turner's conviction involved the use of a stick, which is simply untrue. His actions were despicable enough that you need not enhance them to justify your outrage.
2
I was out with a male friend a few nights ago discussing this case - the last discussion I hope we'll ever have. He expressed his view that Brock Turner's victim should have known that if she, as a woman, became intoxicated around men who were also intoxicated, she risked the violent sexual assault she endured. In other words, he blamed the victim, as most juries, grand juries, and society at large has always done. I was shocked that a relatively young person still holds these sexist, dangerous views. Young women do not expect to be raped in the evironment of a college campus among friends and peers, and if that were the reasonable expectation, we have failed them miserably. Thankfully, most men, no matter how drunk would not sexually assault an incapacitated person. Because of the persistence of views like that of my former friend, the only reason Mr. Turner found himself convicted for his crimes, was because two independent witnesses stumbled across his heinous acts, reported him, and testified in court. Otherwise, the victim would have been blamed yet again and he would have gotten off, pun intended.
22
Has progress has been made? The one bit of luck the victim had was provided by two Swedish heroes willing to take action and provide testimony. What if they had not walked by; what if they had not intervened or testified? Would the victim have been believed, or would a psychopath be enjoying his morning dip?
22
The presence of 2 witnesses makes this case exceptional, in that they could attest to the fact that the women was unconscious. This is what makes this verdict so egregiously awful.
I'm hearing a lot of outrage among men about this case; apparently most men find it possible to get drunk and still not rape somebody. They see this Brock as an entitled little brat--and an entitled jock, especially--and his comments and his father's letter sort of cement that impression. The blaming of "promiscuity" and drunkenness on campus is particularly outrageous; when will defense attorneys realize this defense sounds entitled and whiny in the extreme?
So I don't think citing of "feminists" is particularly relevant or useful--I'm hearing outrage from many who would never join a feminist cause. It's just about human decency in the end.
I'm hearing a lot of outrage among men about this case; apparently most men find it possible to get drunk and still not rape somebody. They see this Brock as an entitled little brat--and an entitled jock, especially--and his comments and his father's letter sort of cement that impression. The blaming of "promiscuity" and drunkenness on campus is particularly outrageous; when will defense attorneys realize this defense sounds entitled and whiny in the extreme?
So I don't think citing of "feminists" is particularly relevant or useful--I'm hearing outrage from many who would never join a feminist cause. It's just about human decency in the end.
18
That's what feminism is about--human decency.
6
We differentiate different types of killing, from first degree, premeditated murder to manslaughter. In all cases, the victim is dead, but we recognize that there are differences in how things started even if the outcome is the same. Rape, a highly emotional topic, should be treated the same way. There is a spectrum of scenarios. The stalker who drags his victim into a dark alley and holds a knife to her throat is not the same as the very intoxicated couple who, at a frat party, don't quite remember what happened but wind up behind a dumpster in the back yard having intercourse. Right now, it's up to the judge to decide and with lack of more specific guidance from the law, outrage becomes more likely when the decision becomes controversial. That would be progress.
7
In this case, Brock Turner remembered very well what happened and provided detailed statements.
10
Except that he remembered differently at the time, and later during the trial after he'd been coached by his lawyers.
5
I'd like to think it's progress, but so much seems to depend on the unusual fact that this case had very credible eyewitnesses. Absent that level of certainty, which cases of a similar nature seem to rarely have, I doubt the conviction or the outpouring of moral outrage would have followed. If no one had seen the victim's clear unconsciousness during the time of the assault, she would have been treated with the same skepticism as the other cases Turkheimer mentions. I'm not sure what the solution is, but it's scary to me that justice seems to hinge on something so random as the right person/people walking by.
9
Justice always hinges on evidence.
Our system of due process favors allowing the guilty to go free over punishing the innocent. When the standard of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt," the goal is the avoidance of taking life, liberty or property without a very high degree of certainty he that the acts charged have been committed.
Our system of due process favors allowing the guilty to go free over punishing the innocent. When the standard of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt," the goal is the avoidance of taking life, liberty or property without a very high degree of certainty he that the acts charged have been committed.
5
Thank you, I understand how the criminal justice system works and why. I was just disagreeing with the author's argument that the results of this case, which seems like an outlier because of particularly strong evidence, is a sign of some kind of progress. Like I said, I don't know what the solution is. Because of the difficulty of proving a crime like this beyond reasonable doubt, I imagine something has to change outside the criminal justice system--say, an increase in cultural understanding that this is a real and horrifying thing that happens, and it's not all just drunk kids having fun and then regretting it in the morning. It's hard to prove on an individual basis, but if we treat this as the widespread problem it probably is instead of as one incident by one bad guy, we can take steps to teach about consent and responsibility for one's actions, etc. Maybe that's unrealistic, too, but it's all I got.
I work with college students and I have sat in rooms with young women who have been sexually assaulted. In some cases it wasn't even 20 minutes...it was 5. And that 5 minutes has changed their lives forever. I have seen the effects of those 5 minutes, and seeing that will cause you to stay awake at night. We must examine why young men -- and even women -- believe that unwanted sexual behavior is excused by the presence of alcohol.
33
Absolutely! I had a student who was raped ask me to go with her to the campus disciplinary proceedings this year. And even if the rape isn't "first degree" as sbmd says above, it rips apart these women's lives--their personhood is violated.
4
I can see why you want to think this is progress, but I assure you it is not. The cases you use as comparison are he-said-she-said cases which, you are right, often favor the aggressor in our innocent until proven guilty legal system. But this was not a case of he-said-she-said. This was a case of being caught in the act. Now if we want to look and see if this really is progress, let's look at cases where the rapist is caught and captured in the act, the victim is unconscious, and the victim has injuries consistent with sexual contact. Now of those cases, how many received a 6-month sentence? How are we looking on progress? Of those who did receive light sentences, how many were white male athletes of the upper-middle class? How's our progress looking? Progress, in my opinion, would have been using this rapist to set an example and show all others that even young white athletic dudes will get the book thrown at them if they attempt this sort of behavior. If progress of any kind was seen in this case it was what resulted from a great injustice, the revelation of the victim's letter to her attacker, a letter that should be required reading for all people, male and female, once they get to high school. That letter is the only progress our society gained from this case.
15
I don't think that the writer and legal analyst Emily Bazelon means that this sentence itself "represents progress." I think she means that the amount of attention being paid to this disproportionately mild sentence will lead to a greater understanding that campus rape should be treated like the serious crime it is.
16
The problem with many comments here and elsewhere is that people react to this as though there was only one category of rape when, in fact, there are almost 20 different categories applicable to the circumstances (at least in NY) ranging from sexual misconduct, which involves intercourse, but is a misdemeanor, to rape in the 1st degree, which is a felony. I'm sure the judge in California had a similar range of possibilities from which to choose. Many are reacting as though this was rape in the 1st degree, which it is clearly not.
11
So many comments integrate basic misunderstandings about the law. Just one example: judges don't choose among charges to bring. It is the job of the prosecutor to bring charges consistent with the fact that emerged in the investigation.
8
we all suffer from a childish belief in good guys and bad guys...
both parties can be wrong...
his actions were inexcusable...
so were hers (so drunk you dont wake up for 3 hours; was she even raped if she cant remember it; if a tree falls in the forest...)
both parties can be wrong...
his actions were inexcusable...
so were hers (so drunk you dont wake up for 3 hours; was she even raped if she cant remember it; if a tree falls in the forest...)
8
Are you raped even if you can't remember it?
The law is clear on that. Yes.
The law is clear on that. Yes.
8
Michael--What do you mean by saying "if a tree falls in the forest..."? It seems like the rest of that question/saying is, does anyone hear it, or does it really fall, since no-one saw it, or something like that. The parallel you are drawing is unclear. Are you asking, if a girl gets assaulted behind a dumpster in an alley.... did it really happen? I ask you to clarify, as your question as posted seems horribly offensive.
17
Yes, you can be raped and not remember it. It is illegal to have sex with someone who is unconscious. Extend your argument. Are you allowed to walk into a nursing home and have sex with someone with dementia? Gross, right? It's gross and illegal to have sex with someone incapable of giving consent. Did you read her statement? She takes responsibility for becoming incapacitated. She was not in a blackout. She was unresponsive. I am hopeful you cannot imagine what it's like to try to have sex with someone who does not move.
20
I think it's important to remember that rapist Brock Turner is appealing. My money says either his conviction will be thrown out, or his sentence will be reduced. If this happens, then one way or another, and is Emily Bazelon's piece suggests, I think this will be because of the mutually intoxicated state of the two people here.
For every Brock Turner caught and convicted, I believe the statistics say there are five to ten more boys and men who raped but are never charged.
Emily Bazelon writes that the victim, "has found her voice and taken back any power she lost." I do not believe this. For the rest of her life I think the victim will beat herself up for becoming so drunk she passed out, in a sea of frat boy sharks who know full well their chance of 'hooking up,' via rape or otherwise, is high indeed under such circumstances. The chances of criminal charges are slim to none.
I am tired of insisting that the girls and women in these scenarios have a right to become so inebriated they black out and have no memory of what happened. Doing so is like saying to a rabbit that it should feast in a vegetable garden under a full moon in a woods teeming with hungry coyotes. It's become weird to take a position that is not merely counter-intuitive, but is failing to prevent the harm.
Until girls and young women get this reality, I figure the best way of reducing rape-via- intoxication is to sue. The Turners look like they can afford to pay a nice settlement.
For every Brock Turner caught and convicted, I believe the statistics say there are five to ten more boys and men who raped but are never charged.
Emily Bazelon writes that the victim, "has found her voice and taken back any power she lost." I do not believe this. For the rest of her life I think the victim will beat herself up for becoming so drunk she passed out, in a sea of frat boy sharks who know full well their chance of 'hooking up,' via rape or otherwise, is high indeed under such circumstances. The chances of criminal charges are slim to none.
I am tired of insisting that the girls and women in these scenarios have a right to become so inebriated they black out and have no memory of what happened. Doing so is like saying to a rabbit that it should feast in a vegetable garden under a full moon in a woods teeming with hungry coyotes. It's become weird to take a position that is not merely counter-intuitive, but is failing to prevent the harm.
Until girls and young women get this reality, I figure the best way of reducing rape-via- intoxication is to sue. The Turners look like they can afford to pay a nice settlement.
4
Mr. Turner's sober state of mind before the party seems to have included the knowledge that drinking can impair a person's ability to rationally consider whether to give or withhold consent. So there seems to have been premeditation. Even if consent was actually given right up to the time when the victim lost consciousness while lying on the ground, Mr. Turner knew and is responsible to know that such consent may not have legal force. The post-sentencing events where the victim made public statements while being allowed to remain anonymous aren't strictly relevant, so I doubt that any appeal would change the sentence one way or the other, although technical details of the verdict could change.
4
There's no such thing as "rape-via-intoxication." I have news for you, it is LEGAL to get really drunk.
5
This piece leaves out several essential facts in the assault. The victim's vagina was lacerated and had dirt in it because Brock Turner repeatedly shoved a stick into her when he was too drunk to sustain an erection. And, others have claimed that it wasn't really a rape because it was "only" a stick! This was a hate crime. Have we forgotten the young Indian woman who died of massive internal injuries after a metal rod was shoved into her? This piece is reducing the assault to a simple matter of binge drinking, just as the perpetrator successfully argued when getting the token sentence.
51
Please cite the transcript of the trial exactly, because there is no mention of a stick here. In fact, the article explcitly says that the vaginal laceration and dirt are hearsay (from a nurse) and not documented. If they were documented, shouldn't that appear here more clearly? But as narrated now, it's sounds like "he said/she forgot."
2
dgm--
The stick evidence has been reported widely. Look it up yourself if you'd like a citation.
The stick evidence has been reported widely. Look it up yourself if you'd like a citation.
6
Lawyer mom
I can't find anything about a stick when I google this story. I don't see anything about a stick in the police report, which I read, or the SART report, which I also read.
If you have link to a source for this information, dgm and I would both like to see it.
I can't find anything about a stick when I google this story. I don't see anything about a stick in the police report, which I read, or the SART report, which I also read.
If you have link to a source for this information, dgm and I would both like to see it.
4
I dont understand how innocent unless proven guilty applies to this case. How was it proven that the behavior was not consensual at it's outset. Maybe the woman was conscious initially and then drifted into unconsciousness near the end. Why was that possibility never mentioned? And wouldn't it have to be disproved before this poor boy is found guilty? If she was conscious at the beginning then it likely was consensual and he really did nothing wrong.
13
The possibility wasn't mentioned because it is irrelevant. Even if she had initially consented, he should have stopped when he realized she was passed out. Any decent human being would do so, without having to be asked.
5
As a legal matter, consent ends when consciousness ends. Based on the testimony of the two Swedish graduate students, there is no question that the woman was unconscious. One of them even stated that he thought she might be dead. The passerby who saw the male figure standing over the inert female figure apparently taking a flash photo also stated that she was entirely motionless.
6
Finally, the sane people arrive to the conversation after the holier-than-thou mob is winded.
2
Don't buy into the hype that there is progress. Hundreds and thousands of men and women will be raped in the future. They will never have as much as a high profile visibility as this Stanford Rape Case. This Stanford rapist had his "20 - minute action" at the wrong time and wrong place, most of all, against the wrong woman. You go girl. Heal. Don't be victimized for the rest of your life for that "20 - minute action". Learn to live the life you deserve. Don't let the rapist define the rest of your life.
11
Let's just allow all persons who commit violent crimes while intoxicated or drugged out of their mind to receive minimum sentences. How pathetic. How sad. I doubt very seeriously if Judge Persky would have issued such a light sentence if the young man was African-American or Hispanic. He should be ashamed. He is the worst kind of person and he had authority over the lives of people. They should go back and review all of his cases for a pattern of discrimination. People like Judge Persky will ensure the demise of this nation.
4
This case illuminates so much. I'd like to add one more thing; if the unconscious victim 'consented,' why did the rapist run when the two guys on bikes approached?
20
I have little sympathy for the victim. She is 22 and does not know what to do about her life with 19 year guy? Come on .
3
The sad truth is that so many targets of sexual assault do not have witnesses and/or individuals who stand up for them. I am grateful that the witnesses were able to be active bystanders. More of this needs to happen as there are many many targets.
19
You are right that this conviction represents progress, but when it comes to righteous outrage this particular incident is pretty much straight out of central casting. After all, the perpetrator is a white star athlete at an elite school. Privilege all the way around.
Yet other incidents seem to not generate the same degree of moral indignation. Football programs seem to be the source for most of these other incidents and the alleged wrong doers don't fit Mr. Turner's demographic. Jameis Winston, anyone?
It will be real progress when all students, and particularly the coddled elite athletes in football programs, are held to the same standard as everyone else.
Yet other incidents seem to not generate the same degree of moral indignation. Football programs seem to be the source for most of these other incidents and the alleged wrong doers don't fit Mr. Turner's demographic. Jameis Winston, anyone?
It will be real progress when all students, and particularly the coddled elite athletes in football programs, are held to the same standard as everyone else.
11
It is my strong belief that no one would commit such a horrid crime as rape while drunk without a prior mindset to do so. The idea, even the physical realities of the motions one would have to go through, has to be there in advance, waiting to be released or given permission by a state of heavy intoxication. The idea to rape and the will to do so don't get suddenly planted in the brain and body by alcohol, they have to be there previously, perhaps in some dormant or fantasy state.
It appears there are many sources contributing to the impulse to be abusive toward women. One that I have not seen mentioned in all of the news items I have read about this case is pornography. This is likely because criticizing the abundance of porn is considered illiberal, as if even making note of its probable influence on young minds would align the person with extreme, repressive views. Plus, those who might see potentially negative affects might themselves be people who enjoy some pornographic materials on occasion, lessening the will.
Another factor that should be considered is the apparent atmosphere of very casual sex on college campuses. The "hook-up culture" assumes no need for emotional or general compatibility between people for sex to occur. While this in no way excuses rape, if all the informal rules about behavior in such matters have been dropped, some minds, fueled by alcohol and hormones, will surely interpret the general mood as blanket permission to do as they please.
It appears there are many sources contributing to the impulse to be abusive toward women. One that I have not seen mentioned in all of the news items I have read about this case is pornography. This is likely because criticizing the abundance of porn is considered illiberal, as if even making note of its probable influence on young minds would align the person with extreme, repressive views. Plus, those who might see potentially negative affects might themselves be people who enjoy some pornographic materials on occasion, lessening the will.
Another factor that should be considered is the apparent atmosphere of very casual sex on college campuses. The "hook-up culture" assumes no need for emotional or general compatibility between people for sex to occur. While this in no way excuses rape, if all the informal rules about behavior in such matters have been dropped, some minds, fueled by alcohol and hormones, will surely interpret the general mood as blanket permission to do as they please.
18
Thank you for writing this. Researchers and progressives have for years tried to bring to the public's attention the effects of pornography, especially on young men as "education" on what women "really" want. It has indeed been difficult getting such discussion published (including in this newspaper) for the very reasons that you have stated--a form of illiberalism in itself. Years of saturation in this stuff--especially the video type--at the push of a button have contributed to an atmosphere of misogyny that no one wants to admit exists--least of all the author of this article.
2
A further factor is what we might call star athlete syndrome. The book Missoula by Jon Krakauer addresses the favoring of male athletes who rape female students; it's a horrific but important read. On one forum I frequent, a Stanford alumnus says that when she attended, women were advised to stay away from any parties given by or featuring swimmers and water polo players, as they were infamous for sexual aggression and assault.
7
I agree with this. When I have been wildly inebriated, it still would never occur to me to do something that I would normally consider repugnant. I think there has to have been a previous feeling or belief by this young man that a drunk woman is fair game.
2
Unfortunately, our laws reduce culpability for intoxicated drivers when they injure or kill people and this is an extension of that. Alcohol use is encouraged and overuse minimized (boys will be boys, having a good time) and the victims are just collateral damage. Until we demand people take personal responsibility for "partying" (another euphemism) and the aftermath, nothing will change.
6
Um, no... Drunken driving is a crime even if you don't kill someone.
6
This column makes a valid point, but there is another essential point that must also be made.
Did the perpetrator commit sexual assault? Yes. This case was tried in criminal court, and he was found guilty. Did he get off too lightly? Yes.
That said, we must also ask: are the kangaroo campus tribunals that are now mandated by the Obama DOE, and which the DOE requires to use the “preponderance of the evidence” standard to determine guilt, appropriate forums to adjudicate these cases? Absolutely not. The fact is, not all accusations of sexual assault are true, as the Duke lacrosse case and UVa case demonstrate.
The reaction to the light sentence in this case is illustrative. A vigilante mob, empowered by social media, is in full swing. The judge and his family have received death threats. As the Times reports, a 20 YO woman who grew up with the perpetrator, and who wrote a character reference on his behalf (which is standard procedure in our legal system), which was published by the California court, has had her life upended. And it goes on.
We must consider the rights of victims, but also the rights of the accused to fair hearings. This case, and the reaction to it, illustrates why campus tribunals will not be able to deal fairly with these cases, and why they should be handled by the criminal justice system, for all its flaws.
Did the perpetrator commit sexual assault? Yes. This case was tried in criminal court, and he was found guilty. Did he get off too lightly? Yes.
That said, we must also ask: are the kangaroo campus tribunals that are now mandated by the Obama DOE, and which the DOE requires to use the “preponderance of the evidence” standard to determine guilt, appropriate forums to adjudicate these cases? Absolutely not. The fact is, not all accusations of sexual assault are true, as the Duke lacrosse case and UVa case demonstrate.
The reaction to the light sentence in this case is illustrative. A vigilante mob, empowered by social media, is in full swing. The judge and his family have received death threats. As the Times reports, a 20 YO woman who grew up with the perpetrator, and who wrote a character reference on his behalf (which is standard procedure in our legal system), which was published by the California court, has had her life upended. And it goes on.
We must consider the rights of victims, but also the rights of the accused to fair hearings. This case, and the reaction to it, illustrates why campus tribunals will not be able to deal fairly with these cases, and why they should be handled by the criminal justice system, for all its flaws.
8
I'm a retired Criminal Defense Attorney. Based on my experience, if Turner had been from a middle class or poor
family he would have gone to prison. I've seen non-rich young men go to prison for a lot less that Turner did.
family he would have gone to prison. I've seen non-rich young men go to prison for a lot less that Turner did.
35
Turner had a more than fair hearing, tilted in his favor by a judge who was a Stanford alumnus and a former athlete there, who lightened the sentence because, in part, he thought Turner was "fragile" and "from a good family." I don't think this was fair handling in the least.
As for the friend who wrote a letter: how was her life "upended"? She had a few concerts canceled due to safety issues. She later retracted her statement of support.
Interesting how you fail to consider the person whose life was truly upended: the young woman who was unconscious and assaulted.
As for the friend who wrote a letter: how was her life "upended"? She had a few concerts canceled due to safety issues. She later retracted her statement of support.
Interesting how you fail to consider the person whose life was truly upended: the young woman who was unconscious and assaulted.
5
Alcohol reduces inhibition. It doesn't alter one's true nature, but reveals it. As our society rejects misogyny and its associated behaviors, misogynists who refuse to change are advised to stay sober.
18
There is another villain in this case, which we must not ignore. That is alcohol on college campuses. We need to ban, or at least heavily restrict, the use of alcohol at college-sanctioned venues, including fraternity parties. The majority of those who imbibe are younger than 21 so in practical terms, this is a request to enforce existing law. But even for students 21 and older, alcohol on campus should be restricted. Consumption of alcohol, especially heavily, by underage or barely-of-age students is a recipe for sexual assault, or worse.
In the current case, both the perpetrator and the victim were heavily intoxicated.
College may perhaps be a bit less “fun” without booze. But college is supposed to be about education.
This observation is not about blaming the victim, or excusing the perpetrator. It is simply about common sense. Without excessive drinking, sexual assault would be a lot less common. Colleges need to get their act together, remember what their purpose is, and do their job.
In the current case, both the perpetrator and the victim were heavily intoxicated.
College may perhaps be a bit less “fun” without booze. But college is supposed to be about education.
This observation is not about blaming the victim, or excusing the perpetrator. It is simply about common sense. Without excessive drinking, sexual assault would be a lot less common. Colleges need to get their act together, remember what their purpose is, and do their job.
8
When my now college-age son was living at home during high school, my best efforts at detection and prevention could not entirely keep alcohol off my property. Or out of my cars. This was despite my very best efforts and deep commitment. It is unlikely that colleges will be able to do much better than I did as a dogged one-woman Javert, with no legal or practical limitations to my powers of search and seizure.
This is not a recommendation that colleges give up on the issue. It's merely a sober acknowledgment of the practical realities.
(Pun intended, although I certainly wasn't laughing much about this issue a few years ago. )
This is not a recommendation that colleges give up on the issue. It's merely a sober acknowledgment of the practical realities.
(Pun intended, although I certainly wasn't laughing much about this issue a few years ago. )
6
True, alcohol is not helpful. But I had a night in college where I drank way too much and ended up in an older male's bedroom; I was overly intoxicated but still realized I did not want to have sex, and I said "no," and he stopped. He was also drunk, as was I. But he was a decent human being who listened to another human being. Alcohol cannot be blamed for someone raping an inebriated woman. How hard is that for people to grasp when it is so simple?
31
Good luck with that. Should work out about as well as Prohibition did.
5
What if she gave consent before she passed out? (Not the formal verbal "ask and answer" consent, but the kind of consent that everyone is familiar with) she might have been going along with it, but she just doesn't recall. If he's alternately fingering her and dry humping her and she is consenting, meaning going along with it, and then she passes out at the exact moment these two bypassers notice, how is this such a horrible crime? This young man is obviously not a "rapist" or sexual predator. Just a typical horny college kid. I would also argue that the experience with Brock wasn't so horrible, but the aftermath in the hospital was, based on her own description.
7
I have been to many, many college parties in the past and spent time around drunk people from all walks of life. There is NOTHING typical about the behavior he engaged in on that night. And even if were typical, it would be no less immoral.
12
He also apparently photographed her breasts while she was unconscious and sent the pic to his buddies. The picture is gone but I understand the text still exists or was evidence. So I don't think your scenario is valid.
2
If your scenario were true he would not have tried to run when the witnesses called out. Clearly, he knew he was doing something wrong.
2
We differentiate different types of killing, from first degree, premeditated murder to manslaughter. In all cases, the victim is dead, but we recognize that there are differences in how things started even if the outcome is the same. Rape, a highly emotional topic, should be treated the same way. There is a spectrum of scenarios. The stalker who drags his victim into a dark alley and holds a knife to her throat is not the same as the very intoxicated couple who, at a frat party, don't quite remember what happened but wind up behind a dumpster in the back yard having intercourse. Right now, it's up to the judge to decide and with lack of more specific guidance from the law, outrage becomes more likely when the decision becomes controversial.
3
She was unconscious and assaulted, so she doesn't remember; but he does -- only his story changed from the moments when he was first interviewed to the trial where he had a story put together for maximum presentation of his own innocence and goodness. There was no intercourse; he was convicted of assaulting her with his fingers. He also apparently photographed her breasts while she was unconscious and sent the pic to his swim buddies; the photo is gone but the text still exists, from what I understand. So this is not just a drunken couple going at it together.
4
I don't think many men realize how devastating rape is for a woman. When the sex act is consensual, it is something positive for both people. When it is nonconsensual, the feelings are negative for one of the parties. But the feelings may be positive for the rapist. Aren't women supposed to say no, even if they really want to? Isn't she secretly enjoying it as much as he is?
The answer is no. As a rape victim, the scars are still with me almost half a century later. It is devastating --- the feeling of never being safe, of being afraid of being overpowered by someone stronger. Way back when, only bad women got raped, so what does that say about me? These scars will never disappear.
It is very hard for a man to understand these feelings, and in the past, men had control. They were the police, the doctors, the attorneys, the judges, the lawmakers. They had all the power.
The Stanford rapist would have lived the rest of his life without a thought to the life he had changed. The protesters are saying we want you to remember this as long as your victim will.
The answer is no. As a rape victim, the scars are still with me almost half a century later. It is devastating --- the feeling of never being safe, of being afraid of being overpowered by someone stronger. Way back when, only bad women got raped, so what does that say about me? These scars will never disappear.
It is very hard for a man to understand these feelings, and in the past, men had control. They were the police, the doctors, the attorneys, the judges, the lawmakers. They had all the power.
The Stanford rapist would have lived the rest of his life without a thought to the life he had changed. The protesters are saying we want you to remember this as long as your victim will.
22
Ms. bazelon too frequently bares a smidgen of academic fluff in any situation, this misplaced essay falls into that category---------the role of law and its justice system revolve around a test of responsibility and intent, then appropriate punishment, and next rehabilitation. Reshaping public policy and social codes stand outside its role and effect, and may or may not play a part. If eb stands persuaded to be a social policy commentator, she might have referred to the typical African-American youth “handled” by the system rather than a bright white kid from America’s heartland. How does the youth of “color” see this verdict?
The facts are simple, he was raping here in public view, she was too flattened to resist, and Mr. Turner conveniently lied to the judge in a sworn statement about everything from substance abuse to past behavior. How can we pan any wisdom from this gross application of the very system that the lawyers and judges, and of course professors, hold up to be the code for our lives? And, no detailed mention of the victim and her trauma versus the smirking jerk from the suburbs, long on amnesia and short on morality……..
The facts are simple, he was raping here in public view, she was too flattened to resist, and Mr. Turner conveniently lied to the judge in a sworn statement about everything from substance abuse to past behavior. How can we pan any wisdom from this gross application of the very system that the lawyers and judges, and of course professors, hold up to be the code for our lives? And, no detailed mention of the victim and her trauma versus the smirking jerk from the suburbs, long on amnesia and short on morality……..
3
Sadly the conversation on drug abuse and crime has stalled.
How many lives are affected each year by alcohol abuse? (Killed, injured, abused, neglected, raped...)
How do lengthy jail sentences exact justice or solve the root cause?
How many lives are affected each year by alcohol abuse? (Killed, injured, abused, neglected, raped...)
How do lengthy jail sentences exact justice or solve the root cause?
2
Comparing a drunk person killing someone to a drunk person having sex with someone shows a remarkable ignorance of how a human brain works. We have deep pre-rational blocks inhibiting us from killing. Those same deep irrational processes are directing us toward having sex.
2
So, you'd understand if I stole from you because I have a deep irrational need to eat and not starve?
2
I've been drunk, high, and half-nuts at various times in my life, quite frankly, and I know other people who have. And I never raped a woman, and neither have they. You have to be a rapist criminal who puts your own self over another person's deepest agonies, to make yourself everything and that person nothing, to commit rape, John. It's not "normal", and it's not excusable because it's "irrational". Btw, I might well irrationally want to kill you for your woman, your wallet, or your car. People do that, too, for the same reason as they rape: because they want to.
1
Btw, John, your idea that this is "having sex"? If some drunk ol' boy grabbed you and raped you like this, would you be saying you "had sex" with him?
Thank you for this perspective. It's hopeful. Perhaps the options for the defendents in these cases will become much more narrow and the horror of the victims much more clear.
2
The fact that the perpetrator had an apparently bright future elicited sympathy from the judge and resulted in a light sentence. That bright future had a lot to do with the perpetrator's high social status, which of course had a lot to do with with being a white male. The judge probably does not consider himself racist, but moments like this, repeated in courtrooms every day, are what lead to unequal racial outcomes in our justice system. What if the perpetrator had been black? What if he were a working-class white man going to community college rather than Stanford? What would those sentences be?
46
I wish that a publisher, with the victim's consent, would bring out a print version of her final statement in court about her rape, and make it widely available. I have never read anything that brings into such clear focus the before and after of this vile crime. It is one of the most brutally honest and eloquent things I have ever read and should be mandatory reading for young men (and women) and be a basis for discussion with their peers, parents, teachers and community leaders. I know some may consider it too graphic and shocking for young minds, but with the Internet awash in easily accessible pornography often featuring women as submissive participants in rape like scenarios, we need every tool we can to keep hammering out the message that rape is a violent and ugly crime with no extenuating circumstances.
7
Ironically, the under-sentenced rapist in this case will, in the fullness of time, receive a far harsher punishment than if he had been given a sentence proportionate to his crime. The leniency of Judge Persky did the rapist no favor.
This is a real-life O. Henry story.
This is a real-life O. Henry story.
7
Progress? Or evidence of easily attained mob reprisal? Hundreds of thousands - completely ignorant of the trial's daily revelations - but whipped into frenzy of the judge's "injustice" - scream to have the judge fired; many, in fact, issue death threats to him and his family. All this aligned through the cheap and easily exploited social media. You don't even have to take pen to paper anymore to register disgust, anger and vehemance. That's progress? More like craziness.
3
Similar to when thousands signed a petition to get Steven Avery's murder conviction overturned after they watched "Making of a Murderer" on Netflix, because that's all the evidence you need to know you're right.
1
I am glad that this case has raised greater awareness of how the criminal justice system has failed rape victims. Our society is way behind the curve on this issue, and we have a long way to go. But I don’t think this case is typical.
This sexual assault happened in public. While I have no statistics on the issue, I have to believe that 90-95% of sexual assaults involving incapacitated women take place behind closed doors – in dormitories, apartments, fraternity houses, etc. There are no Swedish bicyclists to arrive and witness such attacks. If you take the victim from this case and put her in a dorm room, you don’t have the power of testimony from third parties who witnessed the attack of an incapacitated woman.
Tragically the court case becomes murkier for a victim who blacked out, and as the victim states in this case: “. . . . .because he now knows you don’t remember, he is going to get to write the script.”
While I agree that the reaction in the Stanford case is progress, we need to make greater progress in the attacks that are more typical, and that are just as powerful and destructive to the victim.
This sexual assault happened in public. While I have no statistics on the issue, I have to believe that 90-95% of sexual assaults involving incapacitated women take place behind closed doors – in dormitories, apartments, fraternity houses, etc. There are no Swedish bicyclists to arrive and witness such attacks. If you take the victim from this case and put her in a dorm room, you don’t have the power of testimony from third parties who witnessed the attack of an incapacitated woman.
Tragically the court case becomes murkier for a victim who blacked out, and as the victim states in this case: “. . . . .because he now knows you don’t remember, he is going to get to write the script.”
While I agree that the reaction in the Stanford case is progress, we need to make greater progress in the attacks that are more typical, and that are just as powerful and destructive to the victim.
9
I am sixty six, male, I remember fraternities and drunken parties sometimes fueled with psychedelics, all manner of drunkeness and sex, but even with all that there was a limit. I do not remember ever hearing of anyone taking advantage of someone on the ground behind a dumpster. The question, among many here, is what sort of uncivilized barbarian would do this, and how we have digressed from the free wheeling sixties to a now when we write about progress and rape. What transpired in the interim? What went wrong over the last fifty years with the socialization of our students. I suspect it has something to do with a culture that is consumed by greed and the elite universities this culture produces and caters to. This rapist must have felt entitled, he did not even require a bed, he could do what ever he wanted. Not only does this criminal need a harsher sentence, he needs deprogramming from America.
16
Let's see if I've got this straight--if I hurt someone when I drive drunk I'm more culpable, but if I sexually assault someone when I'm drunk I'm less culpable?
26
Perhaps change is coming.
But this is the same California in, as memory holds, which several "white. privileged. high school males," skipping afternoon school, droivew through high-end neighborhoods shooting at Latino landscapers with a BB gun. The were caught and charged with the assault, and faced a mandatory life sentance for "firearm used in the commission of a felony. California at that time classified BB guns as a firearm. The State came to these otherwise good boy's rescue ant retroactively re-classified BB guns.
It is still the same state with, again as memory holds, another "white. privileged. high school male" committed a felony and was sentenced to "ski camp."
So, it is not unthinkable to acquit "to acquit killers, kidnappers or thieves for this reason.”" It's a California -thing.
But this is the same California in, as memory holds, which several "white. privileged. high school males," skipping afternoon school, droivew through high-end neighborhoods shooting at Latino landscapers with a BB gun. The were caught and charged with the assault, and faced a mandatory life sentance for "firearm used in the commission of a felony. California at that time classified BB guns as a firearm. The State came to these otherwise good boy's rescue ant retroactively re-classified BB guns.
It is still the same state with, again as memory holds, another "white. privileged. high school male" committed a felony and was sentenced to "ski camp."
So, it is not unthinkable to acquit "to acquit killers, kidnappers or thieves for this reason.”" It's a California -thing.
1
While the father didn't actually commit a crime, he deserves to share a cell with his son for his absolutely tone-deaf (!), disgusting, moronic comments.
"...20 minutes of action." That's all he has to say??
"Action?" Are you kidding me????
The article intimates that we've made progress. Apparently, not nearly enough.
"...20 minutes of action." That's all he has to say??
"Action?" Are you kidding me????
The article intimates that we've made progress. Apparently, not nearly enough.
15
Parents will desperately defend their children no matter what. I once had two parents try to blame their son's drug addiction on me because I was dating him, even though the addiction far proceeded my knowing him and I didn't even know about it until looooong into the relationship, at which point I tried to help, then left when I saw that wasn't possible...No one wants to believe their child is capable of something like this. I actually feel sorry for him (the father, NOT the rapist)-- even though his statement was of course hugely disrespectful.
3
And the mother wrote a rambling four page letter all about how she has a new house but can't decorate it because it's all just too sad. She asks, "Why HIM?" as if the woman singled out her son with the plan of becoming unconscious, being assaulted, and prosecuting him.
2
six months still too short a sentence.
3
Scary what can happen at frat parties, with booze overflowing. I cannot recall reading about a campus rape where both parties were drunk. Are there any statistics indicating the correlation of campus drinking and rape?
I'm assuming you left out a "not"? As in, "I cannot recall reading about a campus rape where both parties were NOT drunk."
2
Of course, one hates to think what might have been the outcome, had the cyclists not happened on the situation and taken action.
8
Commenting to inquire as to where the 14-year number comes from.
I'm not an expert here, but my understanding is that in California, the standard for first time offenders is for all charges to be served concurrently barring aggravating factors. The sentence for any of those charges is 2-4--meaning two years of prison and two years of probation--provided that the convict does not further break the law (when all of the probation can become a prison term in addition to any new convictions). The prosecution asked the judge to give the defendant a six year prison term, or in other words, all three charges served consecutively. The prosecution failed to show any aggravating factors.
2-4 was therefore the maximum. The Probation Department suggested six months as well, which is also seemingly left out of this article.
The 14-year maximum sentence suggested here seems to magnify a certain agenda through a misstatement of law. It further seems leaving out the probation department's suggested sentence of six months points a finger at Judge Persky as having a bias he likely does not. Maybe the probation department should be attacked similarly to how Persky has been.
This article is a step in the right direction, away from most of the nonsense written covering this case.
My personal opinion is 364 days would have been a more proper sentence in light of the reasoning provided by the judge, I do not get why the probation recommended so little.
I'm not an expert here, but my understanding is that in California, the standard for first time offenders is for all charges to be served concurrently barring aggravating factors. The sentence for any of those charges is 2-4--meaning two years of prison and two years of probation--provided that the convict does not further break the law (when all of the probation can become a prison term in addition to any new convictions). The prosecution asked the judge to give the defendant a six year prison term, or in other words, all three charges served consecutively. The prosecution failed to show any aggravating factors.
2-4 was therefore the maximum. The Probation Department suggested six months as well, which is also seemingly left out of this article.
The 14-year maximum sentence suggested here seems to magnify a certain agenda through a misstatement of law. It further seems leaving out the probation department's suggested sentence of six months points a finger at Judge Persky as having a bias he likely does not. Maybe the probation department should be attacked similarly to how Persky has been.
This article is a step in the right direction, away from most of the nonsense written covering this case.
My personal opinion is 364 days would have been a more proper sentence in light of the reasoning provided by the judge, I do not get why the probation recommended so little.
1
So let's say the victim had taken a little too much insulin because she planned on eating more carbohydrates than usual. In error she took far too much and ended up unconscious, unable to move. Does this mean that she is in some way to blame for her attacker's actions. Would some have judged her as irresponsible and even "asking for it". I doubt it. People make mistakes when drinking alcohol and judging it's effect. That's why there's a don't drink and drive law in every state and most countries. Does Judge Persky seriously believe alcohol reduced Mr Turner's moral culpability? In effect don't drink and rape?
11
The term 'progress' is overstated. The only reason why the perpetrator was prosecuted was because there were eye witnesses who could speak for her.
9
Ironically, the judge did Brock Turner no favor. In the normal course of events Turner would serve a few years and despite felony convictions and registered sex offender status would normally sink back into anonymity and get on with his life. Now Turner is infamous and for the rest of his life if he gets as much as a traffic ticket it will be news.
76
I think the appropriate punishment is whatever is likely to prevent this man from committing similar crimes.
4
All men is the point.
He is unlikely to commit similar crimes in the future, so is nothing the appropriate punishment?
1
Publicus Seattle: A dull point, gratuitous and fallacious.
1
What twisted reasoning! If this outcome is "progress", is anyone attempting to convince the victim of that fact? "20 minutes" should be changed to "her whole life". The kid committed a barbaric crime, yet gets off (pardon me, bad choice of words) with practically no punishment. What has our young peoples' society become????
16
"What has our young peoples' society become?"
Well, better than it was. Are you going to tell us that Mr. Turner would have even been prosecuted 50 years ago? Maybe even 20 years ago? Now, he's wearing his own Scarlett letter for the rest of his life, and serves as example #1 for any other creep thinking of doing the same thing. His victim at least has the satisfaction of witnessing his public shaming and the ruination of his life, as much as we would all prefer that this had never happened in the first place (yes, she is injured for life, and it will never make up for what she suffered at his hands).
So, yes, this does represent progress, and "pogoWasWrong."
Well, better than it was. Are you going to tell us that Mr. Turner would have even been prosecuted 50 years ago? Maybe even 20 years ago? Now, he's wearing his own Scarlett letter for the rest of his life, and serves as example #1 for any other creep thinking of doing the same thing. His victim at least has the satisfaction of witnessing his public shaming and the ruination of his life, as much as we would all prefer that this had never happened in the first place (yes, she is injured for life, and it will never make up for what she suffered at his hands).
So, yes, this does represent progress, and "pogoWasWrong."
1
Please re-read the article. Bazelon was simply saying that in the past it was likely the attacker wouldn't even have been prosecuted. We all think the sentence was too light, but a conviction, a prison stay, and lifetime sex offender status is a better outcome than authorities declining to even prosecute or the attacker being found not guilty.
1
This is progress because in the very recent past, and in many courts in the country, he wouldn't have been prosecuted at all. This is progress because people on the Internet are mad at the rapist, not at the victim. This is progress because although there are still some people saying "why did she drink so much", they are the minority and are being drowned out by people saying "what does it matter?"
Young peoples' society has become one in which rape isn't excused by "boys will be boys" or "why was she at a party"? We're fixing your generation's rape culture, old man. This is progress because of how bad things were before.
Young peoples' society has become one in which rape isn't excused by "boys will be boys" or "why was she at a party"? We're fixing your generation's rape culture, old man. This is progress because of how bad things were before.
6
Intoxication also used to be a reason for reduced culpability in motor vehicle accidents. Just as with DUI, intoxication should no longer be an acceptable argument for reduced culpability in rape cases (or any other transgression of the law).
48
Exactly. DUI is not forgivable because the driver was intoxicated, therefore not responsible for his crime.
1
I'm sure you are aware that alcohol reduces inhibitions and makes both men and women do things they would never do when sober. Drinking and driving became illegal when cars appeared on roads - it was never an argument for reduced culpability in automobile accidents, as you somehow allege it was. The laws of the land allow for consideration of altered mental state when sentencing - ever heard of "insanity" as a plea?
1
DaveB Boston, MA: think it over, Dave, DUI means "driving under the influence" - we're not talking about under the influence of little green men from Mars - it's about alcohol! Wouldn't make sense at all if DUI was forgivable because it involved alcohol. Your statement is a non-sequitur.
Recall of a judge ought to be an extreme action, taken when the judge commits a crime while in office, or when there is a pattern of judicial misconduct over time. Initiating a recall because you disagree with the judge on a single case ... that is shameful. Sowing fear in judges does not promote democratic principles.
14
Actually, a pattern of disturbing behavior by Persky in sexual assault cases is emerging.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/09/stanford-sexual-assault-j...
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/09/stanford-sexual-assault-j...
6
None of this needed to happen.
Why are very bright students getting so drunk that they pass out
and then are taken advantage of by highly drunk students ?
Why are very bright students getting so drunk that they pass out
and then are taken advantage of by highly drunk students ?
27
Because young people sometimes make mistakes, especially when they are inexperienced with the effects of alcohol
1
First, obviously you don't have the facts. The victim was not a student. She lives in a nearby community. Secondly -- and perhaps most troublingly -- you are engaging in victim blaming. The act of consuming alcohol, regardless of the amount, NEVER implies that one is "fair game" for assault. As the victim so eloquently expressed in her statement to the court, Turner preyed on her specialty because she was vulnerable. That's what makes his actions so heinous.
14
Wow. You place ALL the culpability on the woman here... "Why are very bright students getting so drunk that they pass out and then are taken advantage of by highly drunk students." How about asking, instead, why Brock Turner thought it was acceptable to sexually assault an incapacitated woman?
As a woman, I don't advise getting black out drunk so that one is vulnerable, but the culpability is with the rapist.
As a woman, I don't advise getting black out drunk so that one is vulnerable, but the culpability is with the rapist.
7
Finally, a white rich man is held accountable, too bad it wasn't by the Justice system.
Look, only yes means yes, and if you are both drunk, yes or no means nothing. Sex if you are wasted is ridiculous, and men and women need to back away from being drunk when hooking up.
This kid deserves life in prision for what he did. We need to send a message that the time of the rich white man getting away with rape is gone forever.
Look, only yes means yes, and if you are both drunk, yes or no means nothing. Sex if you are wasted is ridiculous, and men and women need to back away from being drunk when hooking up.
This kid deserves life in prision for what he did. We need to send a message that the time of the rich white man getting away with rape is gone forever.
9
I think this type of sentiment, which emphasizes primitive vengeance, is a huge part of the problem. Why not kill Mr. Turner, publicly? How about a public flogging? How about we just flog white men, or men, in general, merely by virtue of their gender? What if the perpetrator was a hired female caregiver who repeatedly assaulted a very young boy (a case with which I am unfortunately familiar)?
We need punishments sufficiently and appropriately tailored to the crimes that juries will convict even in somewhat troubling and ambiguous circumstances. All crimes with a given label ('rape', 'theft', 'murder') are not the same. Indeed, if explicit consent is an absolute requirement, two people who sleep with each other without getting it can both claim they were raped notwithstanding the complete absence of violence or coercion, a ridiculous result.
No purpose is served by punishment beyond that of specific and general deterrence. Mr. Turner, who has been publicly shamed, identified, incarcerated and must register as a sex offender forever, is extremely unlike to repeat his crime (specific deterrence), nor is it likely that anyone who might otherwise be dissuaded from similar crimes will fail to be dissuaded by the 'leniency' shown him ('general deterrence').
Putting a young person in jail until he rots serves no purpose other than the basest of our nature, vengeance. Our sorry history of racist vengeance masquerading as 'justice' should teach us at least that.
We need punishments sufficiently and appropriately tailored to the crimes that juries will convict even in somewhat troubling and ambiguous circumstances. All crimes with a given label ('rape', 'theft', 'murder') are not the same. Indeed, if explicit consent is an absolute requirement, two people who sleep with each other without getting it can both claim they were raped notwithstanding the complete absence of violence or coercion, a ridiculous result.
No purpose is served by punishment beyond that of specific and general deterrence. Mr. Turner, who has been publicly shamed, identified, incarcerated and must register as a sex offender forever, is extremely unlike to repeat his crime (specific deterrence), nor is it likely that anyone who might otherwise be dissuaded from similar crimes will fail to be dissuaded by the 'leniency' shown him ('general deterrence').
Putting a young person in jail until he rots serves no purpose other than the basest of our nature, vengeance. Our sorry history of racist vengeance masquerading as 'justice' should teach us at least that.
1
If being drunk diminishes responsibility for a woman who asserts she is raped, why doesn't being drunk likewise diminish responsibility for a man accused of rape? Being drunk does not diminish responsibility for, say, anyone driving a car, so why does being drunk diminish responsibility for anyone under any circumstance?
26
Regarding your first sentence:
Being drunk doesn't "diminish responsibility" for a rape victim because a rape victim is a victim and not a perpetrator.
In our system, perpetrators have responsibility and victims do not.
For an alternative system, see the tribal regions of Afghanistan.
Being drunk doesn't "diminish responsibility" for a rape victim because a rape victim is a victim and not a perpetrator.
In our system, perpetrators have responsibility and victims do not.
For an alternative system, see the tribal regions of Afghanistan.
10
The woman wasn't responsible for lacerating her vagina while unconscious, the defendant was, as he was the one who did it. I guess you can fault her for drinking until she passed out, if you want, but what law did she break that she ought to be held accountable for? A jury found the person who was on top of her, humping her, putting his fingers in her while she was unconscious guilty of the crimes he was charged with. Again, what crime did she commit?
6
Because being victimized is not a crime. It is not and should not ever be a person's responsibility to keep a rapist from raping them. We do, however, all have a responsibility to abide by the law and to not violently assault our fellow citizens no matter how vulnerable they may be. How do you not understand this?
9
I don't know where to start. The 6-month sentence left me enraged even before I read the reaction of millions of others. A lot has been written since there. Here is something I haven't seen addressed:
Why aren't drinking laws upheld on university campuses? A quick Google search indicates that a child under age 21 can drink at home if under the supervision of a parent or guardian. Many college campuses, including Stanford, are private land. However, the Federal Trade Commission says on its website:
"No state has an exception that permits anyone other than a family member to provide alcohol to a minor on private property. In addition, many states have laws that provide that “social hosts” are responsible for underage drinking events on property they own, lease, or otherwise control, whether or not the social host actually provides the alcohol."
Was Stanford the "social host" in the Brock Turner case? Perhaps it and all universities need to be held accountable for underage drinking.
I know, many of you are thinking college would be a bore without drinking. That said, this country has a law requiring one to be 21 to drink alcohol. Many 18 to 20-year-olds are in college. Are they exempt from this law? Let's start enforcing the drinking age on college campuses.
Or, as some suggest, if the legal drinking age is lowered in the U.S., let's still hold universities accountable for the excessive alcohol consumption on campus.
Why aren't drinking laws upheld on university campuses? A quick Google search indicates that a child under age 21 can drink at home if under the supervision of a parent or guardian. Many college campuses, including Stanford, are private land. However, the Federal Trade Commission says on its website:
"No state has an exception that permits anyone other than a family member to provide alcohol to a minor on private property. In addition, many states have laws that provide that “social hosts” are responsible for underage drinking events on property they own, lease, or otherwise control, whether or not the social host actually provides the alcohol."
Was Stanford the "social host" in the Brock Turner case? Perhaps it and all universities need to be held accountable for underage drinking.
I know, many of you are thinking college would be a bore without drinking. That said, this country has a law requiring one to be 21 to drink alcohol. Many 18 to 20-year-olds are in college. Are they exempt from this law? Let's start enforcing the drinking age on college campuses.
Or, as some suggest, if the legal drinking age is lowered in the U.S., let's still hold universities accountable for the excessive alcohol consumption on campus.
33
Many college fraternities are located off campus. I do not know whether the Stanford affiliated fraternity where this party was held is on campus or off.
1
College administrations know very well what's going on. How could they not? But they look the other way. Drinking is worst at the frat houses, but of course, many college donors are alumni of these proud organizations--and we don't want to endanger the development campaign, do we?
Enforce the drinking age laws, indeed.
Enforce the drinking age laws, indeed.
2
How do you propose colleges should do this? They already prohibit underage drinking in dorms, prohibit the serving of alcohol to underage partygoers, etc. Students still sneak alcohol into their dorm rooms, they still procure fake id's, etc.
1
Maybe during Brock Turner's six months of jail time, some helpful fellows will make him feel like he is spending 60 years there...what goes around...
The fellow, his Dad and the judge are all miserable pathetic jerks. Dad, what did you have to bribe the judge with? What about the mother? Can she speak or is she duct taped in the closet? You parents failed big time.....you will carry this with you for the rest of your lives.
The fellow, his Dad and the judge are all miserable pathetic jerks. Dad, what did you have to bribe the judge with? What about the mother? Can she speak or is she duct taped in the closet? You parents failed big time.....you will carry this with you for the rest of your lives.
28
The term "legal limit" is used regarding blood alcohol content in the story. Presumably this refers to the legal limit to drive but it is confusing and inaccurate to say someone was over the legal limit when not driving because there is no legal limit unless driving.
11
I live a stone's throw from Stanford University; I grew up in Palo Alto. A very interesting twist to this story as of today: More than 10 potential jurors in a Santa Clara County courtroom (Palo Alto's county), who presented themselves in court for consideration of jury duty, have stood up - actually stood up in the courtroom - and declared that they are unable to unbiasedly participate in any case that is under the control of Judge Persky who was in the courtroom for jury selection this day. Notably, this was jury selection for a case that was not a sexual assault case, but a property-crime case. I believe this is unprecedented for the Palo Alto area. If Mr. Persky thinks that he can wait out this storm, he may want to think again. The outrage is palpable here...and everywhere. Mr. Persky needs to go.
114
K.L. Frank Palo Alto, California: yes, it is shameful how mob behavior can affect the workings of justice. You may not agree with the judge on how he rules, but if he rules withing the confines of the law, you have to accept the verdict. Too often it runs the opposite way: three strikes and you're out; possession of a small amount of marijuana, etc., but people accepted the verdict and the sentences without much ado for decades.
2
And if a judge, just a few decades ago, sentenced a man who was convicted of possessing just an ounce of marijuana to just six months in jail instead of years he would have been railroaded off the bench and harassed by trolls much like Mr. Persky is now. And that's a fact you can take to the bank, sir!
sbmd, are you trying to equate having an ounce of marijuana with sexually assaulting a woman? Tell me you're not doing that, because I think you are, and it's hard (and sort of scary) to imagine why you want to do that.
1
She's being blamed & punished for drinking.
Nobody thinks it's legal to rob someone because they're drunk. No matter what you think of drinking, you don't deserve to have someone hit you & take your wallet because you've been drinking.
We need to stop drinking & drug use by women as an 'excuse' or 'defense' for rape the way we rid the legal system of using "her skirt was short" or "she's a tramp" or "I've had sex with her before" or "she's my wife" as 'excuses' or 'reasons' for dismissing - or trivializing - rape.
We need to rid the system of anything that puts the blame on the person raped: sexual history, time & place, status.
There should be a national effort to recall - & shame - judges who give inadequate sentences for felony sexual assault. We all know if this had been a poor black defendant, the sentence would've been harsh. All race/class/status/privilege issues must be removed from consideration in rape cases - for defendant or victim.
I know, good luck. But the publicity accorded to the judge & Brock Turner are a start.
Thanks to the 2 Swedish grad students who intervened to stop this despicable crime. If all the witnesses to - or those knowledgeable about - sexual assaults on campuses would do what these men did incidences of rape would diminish. Guys like Brock Turner assume that no one will notice what they're doing, that no one will care if they do notice & that he won't be prosecuted because of the 'kind' of rape he's committing.
He was wrong.
Nobody thinks it's legal to rob someone because they're drunk. No matter what you think of drinking, you don't deserve to have someone hit you & take your wallet because you've been drinking.
We need to stop drinking & drug use by women as an 'excuse' or 'defense' for rape the way we rid the legal system of using "her skirt was short" or "she's a tramp" or "I've had sex with her before" or "she's my wife" as 'excuses' or 'reasons' for dismissing - or trivializing - rape.
We need to rid the system of anything that puts the blame on the person raped: sexual history, time & place, status.
There should be a national effort to recall - & shame - judges who give inadequate sentences for felony sexual assault. We all know if this had been a poor black defendant, the sentence would've been harsh. All race/class/status/privilege issues must be removed from consideration in rape cases - for defendant or victim.
I know, good luck. But the publicity accorded to the judge & Brock Turner are a start.
Thanks to the 2 Swedish grad students who intervened to stop this despicable crime. If all the witnesses to - or those knowledgeable about - sexual assaults on campuses would do what these men did incidences of rape would diminish. Guys like Brock Turner assume that no one will notice what they're doing, that no one will care if they do notice & that he won't be prosecuted because of the 'kind' of rape he's committing.
He was wrong.
76
fastfurious the new world: yes, he was wrong and he was convicted of a felony which will punish and haunt him for the rest of his life. I don't think you have Turner's mind-set too accurate, though. I don't think he thought too much about the kind of sexual assault [he was not convicted of rape] he was about to commit; he was too drunk.
2
there are people who think this is all an over-reaction, but these are the same people from the past in a society that treats women and minorities as less than first class citizens whether in the boardroom or in the court house. I'm glad people are outraged, alot of them. This is unacceptable behavior to try to force oneself on a woman who was intoxicated and unconscious behind a dumpster. It is behavior that is inexcusable and certainly criminal. A decent gentleman would have tried to get her to a safe place.
36
There is this recent case in Rio de Janeiro where a 16 years old girl was raped by more than 30 guys who posted a video mocking the her and sexually assaulting her on twitter. The case became public, and to make matters even worse, the detective responsible for the investigation claimed it wasn't a rape that could have been an orgy! Just to make this horrendous and outrages enough, the gang of guys who raped her were drug dealers, thugs, thief and killers, there was a football player too that has behaved like the real victim. And guess what? Just 2 have been arrested, the others 5 identified suspects are on the lose and police has done NOTHING to catch them. The detective that was holding the case was replaced but not punished for have let the suspects go and tried to incriminate the victim. Since this happened, I haven't been able to sleep, I'm devastated, I'm depressed and worst of all angry because the press in Brazil, isn't supporting the victim the way American press has shown support on this case. In Rio, the girl has been called names, promiscuity and the football player is back at his team telling a whole different story now. In cases like these, justice is needed by a large number of people that feels also victimized by the brutality of the act. This girl in Rio won't ever see justice, even with a video showing part of they did to her to the whole world to see. I suggest people in USA or Europe or any part of the world, to stay away from Rio, it is a totally chaos!
31
just wondering how the victim got to the place where the assault took place. Did Turner take her there? Or did he just stumble upon her lying there behind the dumpster drunk and motionless? She might not remember but what did he say?
14
I read that he claims to have asked her to come to his room and she consented.
Two stupid drunks.
Two stupid drunks.
5
They left the party together and were walking back to his place.
2
@winchestereast what makes you think he's telling the truth? Either way, there may have been two stupid drunks, but only one of them committed a violent crime. Pretty big difference.
8
While I agree the handling of sex crimes is getting better, the author here is too optimistic. True, as she states, most campus officials would not get past a victim saying, "I don't remember" but the real difference here is the existence of witnesses. Those two men who intervened changed the outcome of this case.
69
I hope you are right that the justice system is shifting toward more justice for rape victims where alcohol is involved. But I can tell you that in 20+ years as a sex crimes state prosecutor, I have never had evidence as good as what is described in the article. An independent witness (the grad student) who cried on the stand at how awful the assault was? And very helpfully etablished that the victim was unmistakably unconscious? And a defendant who ran from the grad students, allowing the People to argue flight as consciousness of guilt. This case is very strong, which makes the ultimate outcome that much more painful. But the fact remains that the vast majority of these events are not witnessed, not reported in good time, and there are huge gaps that allow the defendant to "write the script" suggesting consent after he has read all the prosecution discovery. Of course, all a defendant must do is plant a seed of reasonable doubt in the juror's minds. So while I wish we could do better getting a measure of justice for these victims, I tell my teenage daughter until I am blue in the face that she is at great risk of assault if she becomes too intoxicated to care for herself, on campus next year or anywhere else. I want more than anything to keep this from happening in the first place, because it's next to impossible to fix after it happens.
150
All parents need to tell this to their kids. Boys and girls. If this assault had not taken place in an alley, but in a room, on a bed, would this girl have even remembered? Is she certain this is the first time she's blacked-out, walked somewhere in a state of complete inebriation, and had her genitals touched by a male companion? What are these kids not getting?
3
Great to have your perspective, Ms. Flaherty. Thank you for serving.
2
Winchester East – –
She might not have remembered what happened if she had blacked out under the circumstances you describe, but, sticking with the facts of this case, she surely would have wondered why her vagina was lacerated and contained wood fragments and dirt.
She might not have remembered what happened if she had blacked out under the circumstances you describe, but, sticking with the facts of this case, she surely would have wondered why her vagina was lacerated and contained wood fragments and dirt.
6
Suppose we have two equally intoxicated people who decide to leave a party together. While they are walking to his place or her place, they stop to fool around. They are both very intoxicated so they are oblivious that what they are doing is too much to be doing in a public space. They look for an out-of-sight place and the fooling around goes further and becomes explicit sexual activity. Both are too intoxicated to consent, and both are actively engaged in the activity. Then one of them passes out. The other one doesn't notice and continues whatever he or she was doing for a while longer. Is that rape? If so, at what point did it become rape rather than two drunk people doing something they might regret the next morning? What if the one who passed out was the guy?
33
"What if the one who passed out was the guy?"
Well then there would not be any rape, would there? Sexual violence is essentially an "one-way street" - the male that has the "power" and hence bears the responsibility. Moral of the story for the guys - keep it in your pants, make sure the female is fully awake and aware. If you have any doubt, just walk away.
Well then there would not be any rape, would there? Sexual violence is essentially an "one-way street" - the male that has the "power" and hence bears the responsibility. Moral of the story for the guys - keep it in your pants, make sure the female is fully awake and aware. If you have any doubt, just walk away.
5
At this point, the intoxicated individuals are each like rattlesnakes with no rattles. You won't know when they will strike. Best to exit the situation and remember that when you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.
1
This narrative makes so much sense that it would seem a good line of defense against the accusation of rape (and even assault) in this case. But since the defense chose not use it, perhaps there is something that is not being clearly communicated in the media coverage. [I keep hearing about sticks and lacerations, but without enough description to constitute evidence.] It would be good if someone would describe why your scenario isn't (wasn't) a good defense -- for it seems quite probable -- in a system that presumes innocence. There must be some evidence that quashes this quickly, but I am just too tired reading all the blathering propaganda to search for it. < Seeking liberal enlightenment.
1
I hope Ms. Bazelon is correct, but personally I think the fact that two MALE passersby intervened and restrained the offender was a big driver of the decision to charge and ultimately convict. All rape victims should be so "lucky."
87
He claimed he didn't know he was raping her, but yet his first instinct when he got caught was to flee.
I just can't get over the callousness of his father, the obtuseness to think this was the time to try to get people to pity his son as the victim here. He said his son his not a rapist. Well guess what, the U.S. legal system says he is. He won't be punished nearly enough for what he did, not in the sense of jail time. But maybe this case can help lead to some real change in this world. Maybe the victim's cri de coeur will inspire more people to speak out. I hope she finds much strength in the public's support of her and our gratitude for her words.
I just can't get over the callousness of his father, the obtuseness to think this was the time to try to get people to pity his son as the victim here. He said his son his not a rapist. Well guess what, the U.S. legal system says he is. He won't be punished nearly enough for what he did, not in the sense of jail time. But maybe this case can help lead to some real change in this world. Maybe the victim's cri de coeur will inspire more people to speak out. I hope she finds much strength in the public's support of her and our gratitude for her words.
64
I have read about the father's defense and see in it a clue as to the "entitlement" of the student athlete.
6
Ben Ryan NYC: his first instinct was to flee. What did he have to fear? Why would being caught naked in the throes of intercourse behind a dumpster, dead drunk with a dead drunk woman, be a reason that a sports hero on a scholarship at a prestigious university, in a situation fraught with implications, would try to flee?
3
Correct!
Despite his light sentence, Turner is a rapist because he was CONVICTED of the three sexual assault felonies.
Despite his inebriation, his conscience knew enough to run when confronted!
Despite his light sentence, Turner is a rapist because he was CONVICTED of the three sexual assault felonies.
Despite his inebriation, his conscience knew enough to run when confronted!
3
To me, the real question is: Why wasn't Turner's response to finding an unconscious person (male or female) to render aid?
That's certainly what I was taught and how I believe most people (of any age) would respond.
It isn't about drinking or partying or culture. It's about helping someone who is unable to help herself.
What did his father teach him? What are we teaching our children? That's what's so terribly wrong here.
That's certainly what I was taught and how I believe most people (of any age) would respond.
It isn't about drinking or partying or culture. It's about helping someone who is unable to help herself.
What did his father teach him? What are we teaching our children? That's what's so terribly wrong here.
80
He didn't find an unconscious person. He met her at the party. According to him, they left together, both very drunk, walking to his place. Again, according to him, they stopped to fool around. Then at some point, apparently, she passed out. According to him, he did not know she was passed out. The witnesses say it was obvious to them that she was.
4
A.J. Sommer Phoenix, AZ: it's rare that alcohol brings out the best in a person. It usually brings out the beast.
1
Am --
He didn't know that she had passed out? And I guess, he must have thought that she enjoyed having a dirty stick inserted into her vagina, cutting the walls of her vagina?
He didn't know that she had passed out? And I guess, he must have thought that she enjoyed having a dirty stick inserted into her vagina, cutting the walls of her vagina?
4
I am embarrassed that Brock Turner is from Ohio I am embarrassed that his father was so dismissive and almost condoning of his son's act But most of all -- as a retired AF guy -- knowing that Dan Turner is a civilian employee of the Air Force Research Lab I fear that the Air Force's much ballyhooed Sexual Assault Prevention and Response (SAPR) seems to have little effect on Air Force civilians
42
Very bad all the way around. He was drunk. She was drunk. Which of the two was not taking care of himself/herself? Who is right? Who is wrong? Are they both to blame? Since when is getting so wasted that you don't remember anything?
12
He was conscious. She was unconscious. Unquestionably. She hadn't been drinking in a while. Her drinks might have been spiked. All we know for sure is that a conscious man was attacking an unconscious woman and he fled when confronted.
3
I truly hope this is another nail in the coffin of the academic-athletic complex. Everyone around "student athletes" at elite levels is telling them that they can have, and do, what they want. It's a message they've heard for years from coaches and--in this case--parents. Let's call a halt to this, and to "boys will be boys" while we're at it.
104
I am glad for all the public opposition to the judge's decision, but the judge, the perpetrator and his father seem to believe that "droit de seigneur" is still alive, perhaps as droit de baigneur.
12
Hopefully, this sentencing travesty will help us to look more critically at all sentencing absurdities, e.g. when people of color are put away for inordinate time for non-violent drug offenses, 3-strikes laws, etc.
15
Well this is brilliant. I was thinking that maybe the evidence is shifty and that's why he got the light sentence but this really opened my eyes. I mean he should still be in trouble cause it'as weird to have sec with a girl who's asleep. I mean he deserves longer because if I was having sex with a girl and she passes out I'm not gonna finish. That's weird. He chose to rape here because she stopped responding. A normal human reaction would be to stop if she isn't moving, especially if she was drinking. That's what makes him the bad guy here. If she was drunk but reactive the whole time there wouldn't be much of an issue, but because she was unconscious it was clearly rape. Sorry I'm not as good a writer as most people on this site. Justy 2 cents haha
15
I hear you but I disagree on the punishment. First, if you want to see criminal rape, pay a visit to some prisons or talk a walk into some bad neighborhoods where shady people hang out. This situation involves a couple of young people who were inebriated. The young man was very wrong. The young woman was wrong as well. However, a healthier solution might be for them to get counseling and get this behind them.
So the drinking, which is often the underlying cause here, is okay. Have I got that right?
9
No. Did someone make that claim?
3
Never mind that, Floyd; people drink all the time, male and female. They sometimes drink too much and get sick, or even pass out. If they drive, that's bad; that didn't happen here. Okay, that's the drinking part. Now let's get to this part: RAPE IS A CRIME, A VIOLENT BRUTAL WICKED CRIME, and drinking does not excuse it any more than it excuses murder. There ya go.
2
Wow, a very even-handed piece. All women are abused in a sense by their implied lesser worth because of men's shrugging off of responsibility for a "mere" twenty minutes of "action" as being insignificant. This writer really "gets" it. Times are changing, thank goodness. Women have worth that is equal to that of men, and being abused, especially in that most personal of places, the vagina, is an outrage so wounding it's hard to describe, although the victim did describe it well. "Twenty minutes of action" indeed. Totally misogynistic.
19
The judge's assertion that the defendant had "less moral culpability " because he was intoxicated flies in the face of logic. If the defendant had gotten behind the wheel of a car when drunk, driven down the wrong side of the road, and killed a person, would he be less "morally culpable"? The law is intended to enforce what common sense would dictate to be reasonable behavior and taking responsibility for ones action, drunk or sober, is the fundamental principle here. The definition of rape has shifted. Everyone knows this. He is guilty, drunk or not.
62
Judge Persky would have then blamed the death on "affluenza" and given him a suspended sentence. The way we treat poor and Black people in the judicial system is downright frightening. And the same "tough on crime" members of the judicial system bend over backwards when the defendants are White or affluent or well-connected or all three.
4
I have sons and a daughter. I'm trying to understand what to tell them. If the boys are drunk, are they culpable but their sister, if inebriated, isn't? This isn't a "statement" question--I genuinely don't understand the law here.
11
If your daughter is inebriated and disrobes and sexually assaults a passed out man and penetrates his orifices with foreign objects, tell your daughter she will be culpable of sexual assault.
It's very straight-forward and easy to understand the law.
It's very straight-forward and easy to understand the law.
19
The moment one of the two passes out, the other becomes a rapist, apparently.
1
It's easy. If your daughters are inebriated and they find an unconscious man, remove his clothes and penetrate his body with their fingers -- they are guilty. If they are drinking and are unconscious and someone removes their clothes and penetrates them -- they are not -- the penetrator is.
17
If being drunk can (some people claim) reduce culpability for raping someone, shouldn't intoxicated burglars, arsonists, and murders also get a minimal sentence?
In fact, if it takes them only 20 minutes or less to steal, burn, or kill, should they be charged at all? Jail might ruin their future... even their appetite.
In fact, if it takes them only 20 minutes or less to steal, burn, or kill, should they be charged at all? Jail might ruin their future... even their appetite.
162
And if being drunk diminishes culpability, why have DWI laws?
1
The audacity of that judge and father.
4
Being intoxicated does reduce capability for so-called "specific intent" crimes. If you are so drunk that you cannot form the intent, then a lesser crime is charged. That is one of the distinctions between murder and manslaughter.