All the nations who were occupied by Turks had to shed their blood to be liberated. Lets look at the list: The Arabs, Albanians,Armenians, Bulgarians,Georgians, Greeks, Serbians, Montenegrins and the list goes on... They all had to die en mass to get their Freedom. Now is the turn of the Kurds. Interesting, that the Turks have not learned anything from history. You cannot keep people subservient by force. Just give them their freedom and make some new friends. Just look at Obama visiting Vietnam and promising them strong support and some sophisticated guns. Imagine being the loved one of the 50K young American boys who died there asking "Why?" Just be a visionary. In 30 years Kurdistan will be the best ally and trading partner for Turkey. Why shed so much blood when the future is inevitable?
17
I dislike Erdogan, and I am very critical of his governments, but I strongly support his push for cleaning out the cities from PKK terrorist who have declared “liberated” zones and forced their will in those towns, without any regard for human life and democracy, and DELIBRATELY destroyed the peace process between the government and Kurdish politicians.
11
Robert F. Worth clearly sympathizes with PKK. We feel sorry for those young terrorist people. He does not mention executions of Kurds by PKK. He does not mention that their aim is to establish a Marxist government under their control. He does not mention that the terms of the agreement dictated by Ocalan was all PKK arms and fighter would leave Turkey. He does not mention that instead PKK stockpiled arms and explosives within cities for the last two years against that agreement, while the government looked away not to destroy the truce.
I wonder how we would feel in USA, and what US government would do, if an ethnic group created a terrorist organization, say in Southern California, to make it part of Mexico, and stockpiled arms with the intention of excluding all government authorities from their “liberated” regions. Putting my family’s life in danger by taking positions next to my house? This is EXACTLY what PKK (a terrorist organization as defined by Western Governments) has done in those cities that Mr. Worth is reporting.
I wonder how we would feel in USA, and what US government would do, if an ethnic group created a terrorist organization, say in Southern California, to make it part of Mexico, and stockpiled arms with the intention of excluding all government authorities from their “liberated” regions. Putting my family’s life in danger by taking positions next to my house? This is EXACTLY what PKK (a terrorist organization as defined by Western Governments) has done in those cities that Mr. Worth is reporting.
11
Remember that for most of western history, Turkey has been a threat. Our first foreign war was against the Barbary pirates, who acted under the aegis of the Turkish Sultan.
4
Global Terrorism Watch, cited in a comment below, would do well to add to it's index of Most Active Terrorists in the OECD, state-sponsored terrorism. For decades Turkey has waged a campaign of ethnic cleansing on different ethnic groups within and beyond its borders, including the Kurds with tens of thousand of unreported deaths, starting before formation of the PKK. Overt genocide of the Yezidi Kurds on Mt. Sinjar in 2014 by ISIS (which is backed by Turkey and Saudi Arabia) brought some attention to the atrocities, but not much. Even now, no effort has been made to rescue over 3500 Yezidi Kurd women and girls enslaved by ISIS in Iraq. The cycle of violence runs full-circle. The US and the west should get out of the business of supporting ISIS terrorism via states such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia, as we claim to wage 'war on terror.' Kurds now are the one reliable, ground combat force against ISIS. If our nation and the EU is to survive in any moral sense, we must support the Kurds' aspirations for autonomy, and prevent their genocide. Remember, "Never again."
19
a good article. not at all propaganda. there has always been in Turkey a strong xenophobic strain. Somehow the Ottomans managed an empire of numerous ethnic groups for 500 years reasonably. Modern Turkey can't
seem to do the same.
seem to do the same.
12
please enumerate on what you mean by managed...reasonably. I suggest you don't ask a Greek for input on that.
3
In an increasingly ugly world, the story of our allies, the secular Kurds, and their brave struggle to defeat Daesh (Isis) and achieve their own land in peace (Kurdistan) is truly inspiring and present to us a people we can admire. We must only hope that they will win the fight to prevent Turkey's Erdogan from stirring up his people to create another holocaust similar to that which virtually wiped out the Armenians a century ago.
It seems that the evil ways of the Ottoman Empire were only temporarily intimidated by Ataturk's guidance in the last century to try and have Turkey emulate the best of European and American ways, to embrace freedom and liberate themselves from the suffocating curse of old Muslim ways. For now Erdogan resembles more and more a reincarnation of the dictatorial, egotism of Adolph Hitler as he tries to obliterate these brave people from their land.
Let us remember that the Kurds have stood with us, and we should stand by them.
It seems that the evil ways of the Ottoman Empire were only temporarily intimidated by Ataturk's guidance in the last century to try and have Turkey emulate the best of European and American ways, to embrace freedom and liberate themselves from the suffocating curse of old Muslim ways. For now Erdogan resembles more and more a reincarnation of the dictatorial, egotism of Adolph Hitler as he tries to obliterate these brave people from their land.
Let us remember that the Kurds have stood with us, and we should stand by them.
14
There must be a sovereign independent Kurdistan allied to its current occupiers.
4
To Turkey, there is not such thing as constructive criticism. Insecure, bombastic, Turks are threatened by any commentary. They do not learn from mistakes- as they refuse to any. This trait will not allow personal or national growth.
13
It is amusing how media can change sides so easily based on the needs of some politicians and businessmen. So, Erdogan was elected in 2002 thanks to your efforts and he did whatever you asked him to do up until two years ago. And, now, not that I like him, somehow he is the only bad guy out there. According to Joe Biden, you created a mess in Syria and Iraq by asking(!) your allies (Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia etc.) to help and now you are looking for someone to clean up that mess. And Kurds are the perfect fit for this job of course. It is not Kurds actually, it is terrorist organizations such as PYD, PKK etc. willing to do this job just to survive there.
PKK to Kurdish people is what Erdogan government to Turkish people is. Last week, Kurdish villagers in Diyarbakir tried to stop a truck loaded with explosives by PKK and they were shattered to pieces when that thing exploded while PKK rebels(!) were firing at villagers. Their remains could only be identified with DNA samples from their families and the total weight of the remains of these 15 villagers was only 60 kg. Are you aware of this lovely peaceful crime committed by PKK rebels(!)?
I am not saying Erdogan is innocent. The so-called peace(!) process was never meant to work and it was so obvious he was asked to do that in exchange for financial aid. Now he is claiming that he never spoke to PKK. And if you are not happy with his radical Islamic ideology, did you not see that coming? What were you expecting anyway?
PKK to Kurdish people is what Erdogan government to Turkish people is. Last week, Kurdish villagers in Diyarbakir tried to stop a truck loaded with explosives by PKK and they were shattered to pieces when that thing exploded while PKK rebels(!) were firing at villagers. Their remains could only be identified with DNA samples from their families and the total weight of the remains of these 15 villagers was only 60 kg. Are you aware of this lovely peaceful crime committed by PKK rebels(!)?
I am not saying Erdogan is innocent. The so-called peace(!) process was never meant to work and it was so obvious he was asked to do that in exchange for financial aid. Now he is claiming that he never spoke to PKK. And if you are not happy with his radical Islamic ideology, did you not see that coming? What were you expecting anyway?
15
For 15 years, since 9.11, I have never seen in Turkish media any articles romanticizing Al-Qaeda terrorists, their difficult lives, the hardships they faced attacking WTC etc. No wonder it is getting more and more difficult to explain ordinary Turks that the US people are our allies.
9
Appeals to "history" are feckless. Ignorant people learn history late and what kind of history is that? Whichever version they believe. Random history lessons. We are doomed to repeat all the versions that we don't know or believe in.
The Middle East's history is the most convoluted on the planet. Forget the damned past! It doesn't help us one bit.
Don't trust any side that puts up pictures of "the strong man", their leader, no matter who s/he happens to be: their thinking is screwy if they think that "the strong man" is going to save them, or is what/who they are fighting for. Thus, "Kurdistan" is a myth, a false goal to mobilize popular support for yet another dictator.
We need to get out and stay out. Period. Too bad that ISIS remains. Too bad that Kurds lose their main weapons and training source and will have to look elsewhere. The US should not be in the business of correcting the ages-old problems of other places in the world.
As long as the terror remains outside of our homeland we have nothing to say about how other people live and die among themselves.
We remain the land of the free. Only an alternative way will convince those who kill that their old ways are wrong together.
If they want to escape the killing, they can come here, but the price they must pay is integration. They must prove that that is what they want.
The Middle East's history is the most convoluted on the planet. Forget the damned past! It doesn't help us one bit.
Don't trust any side that puts up pictures of "the strong man", their leader, no matter who s/he happens to be: their thinking is screwy if they think that "the strong man" is going to save them, or is what/who they are fighting for. Thus, "Kurdistan" is a myth, a false goal to mobilize popular support for yet another dictator.
We need to get out and stay out. Period. Too bad that ISIS remains. Too bad that Kurds lose their main weapons and training source and will have to look elsewhere. The US should not be in the business of correcting the ages-old problems of other places in the world.
As long as the terror remains outside of our homeland we have nothing to say about how other people live and die among themselves.
We remain the land of the free. Only an alternative way will convince those who kill that their old ways are wrong together.
If they want to escape the killing, they can come here, but the price they must pay is integration. They must prove that that is what they want.
9
So true
5
I don't know that you could argue that the Kurds are looking to a strongman or dictator. The Kurdish areas of Iraq (which are effectively autonomous at this point) have free and fair elections for their leadership, and don't disenfranchise non-Kurdish citizens of the area.
9
The Land of the Free was born in revolt — revolt by those who revolted against the lawful rule and control of their King in Westminster. The land of the free has not proved so free for the Native Americans dispossessed of their ancient lands, or for the African Americans brought to the land of the free in chains, to be enslaved for the greed of white men and white women too lazy to pick their own cotton.
The struggle by the Kurds to regain their homelands goes back centuries if not millennia. The Kurds are a people with a distinct language. Americans are not.
The USA is in essence merely an ex-British colony that rebelled against its lawful masters because the hordes of flotsam and jetsam from Europe arriving on America's eastern shores were hungry for the 'unsettled' lands in the west — more precisely, the lands in the west as yet unstolen by the new arrivals.
Today, therefore, the Kurds are every bit as entitled to their freedom from the Turkish rule in Ankara, as were the American revolutionaries rebelling against the British rule in Westminster.
That is the lesson of history.
The struggle by the Kurds to regain their homelands goes back centuries if not millennia. The Kurds are a people with a distinct language. Americans are not.
The USA is in essence merely an ex-British colony that rebelled against its lawful masters because the hordes of flotsam and jetsam from Europe arriving on America's eastern shores were hungry for the 'unsettled' lands in the west — more precisely, the lands in the west as yet unstolen by the new arrivals.
Today, therefore, the Kurds are every bit as entitled to their freedom from the Turkish rule in Ankara, as were the American revolutionaries rebelling against the British rule in Westminster.
That is the lesson of history.
4
No one should judge whats going on in there just by reading a few articles. If it were so simple, the situation wouldn't take 30 years (PKK's first action was in 1984).
The soil they (Rebels (actually terrorists)) are fighting (!) for is Turkey's land and it is quite normal for her to defend it from foreign threats.
Consider Turkey's independence war in 1920s. At that time, Turkish forces couldn't provide troops to fight in south eastern part of Anatolia (Urfa, Antep, Bekir, Maras, etc.). But people fought and willingly became cities of the new state (Later on National Assmebly renamed these cities to SANLIUrfa, DIYARbakir, etc. to honor their acts in the war.). So why didn't they separated in the first place ? It may be much easier and painless at that time. Why in 1984 ? Why now ?
Also please bear in mind that most of the Kurds living in Turkey actually migrated from Iraq in 1991 (Operation Desert Storm ?). Just like Syrians, Kurds were welcomed by the Turkish government (Turgut Ozal was the president or PM) at that time. So it can be easily argued that Kurds living in that area do not have historical bonds which may provide them the right to rebel.
So people denoting independence, please answer, southern states of US holds many Mexican citizens (Hispanic folks), legal immigrants or not. Even a state is called New Mexico. Do they have the right to quit United States of America and join Mexico or even declare independence ?
The soil they (Rebels (actually terrorists)) are fighting (!) for is Turkey's land and it is quite normal for her to defend it from foreign threats.
Consider Turkey's independence war in 1920s. At that time, Turkish forces couldn't provide troops to fight in south eastern part of Anatolia (Urfa, Antep, Bekir, Maras, etc.). But people fought and willingly became cities of the new state (Later on National Assmebly renamed these cities to SANLIUrfa, DIYARbakir, etc. to honor their acts in the war.). So why didn't they separated in the first place ? It may be much easier and painless at that time. Why in 1984 ? Why now ?
Also please bear in mind that most of the Kurds living in Turkey actually migrated from Iraq in 1991 (Operation Desert Storm ?). Just like Syrians, Kurds were welcomed by the Turkish government (Turgut Ozal was the president or PM) at that time. So it can be easily argued that Kurds living in that area do not have historical bonds which may provide them the right to rebel.
So people denoting independence, please answer, southern states of US holds many Mexican citizens (Hispanic folks), legal immigrants or not. Even a state is called New Mexico. Do they have the right to quit United States of America and join Mexico or even declare independence ?
11
"Also please bear in mind that most of the Kurds living in Turkey actually migrated from Iraq in 1991 ", not correct. Very few came and went back afterwards.
2
In fact Turgut Ozal, who served as the 8th President of Turkey from 1989 to 1993 himself had Kurdish roots from his mother's side of the family.
Due to the decades long and still ongoing migration of people from the rural Anatolian countryside to the big cities of Turkey in search of better paying jobs; according to demographic surveys there are presently more Turkish citizens of Kurdish descent living in Istanbul alone than in all of southeastern Anatolia. To think that if there were an autonomous or independent "Kurdistan" carved out of the Republic of Turkey, that these individuals would forgo their livelihoods, take their children out of school, leave their homes and go back to such an entity in southeastern Anatolia is sheer nonsense.
Had the Kurds in Turkey's large cities wanted to "return to their roots" as the terrorist PKK would have the world believe they would if such an entity were formed, they would have have left much earlier to go to the Kurdish region of Northern Iraq adjacent to Turkey where the semi-autonomous Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) governs and due to huge oil deposits far more economic opportunities exist than in rural southeastern Turkey. But they have not left Turkey to do so.
Despite PKK's attempts to tear apart the social fabric of Turkey by fanning the flames of ethnic discord and hatred, it has not succeeded for 30 years and never will because there is far more that unites the Turks and Kurds in the nation they share than divides them.
Due to the decades long and still ongoing migration of people from the rural Anatolian countryside to the big cities of Turkey in search of better paying jobs; according to demographic surveys there are presently more Turkish citizens of Kurdish descent living in Istanbul alone than in all of southeastern Anatolia. To think that if there were an autonomous or independent "Kurdistan" carved out of the Republic of Turkey, that these individuals would forgo their livelihoods, take their children out of school, leave their homes and go back to such an entity in southeastern Anatolia is sheer nonsense.
Had the Kurds in Turkey's large cities wanted to "return to their roots" as the terrorist PKK would have the world believe they would if such an entity were formed, they would have have left much earlier to go to the Kurdish region of Northern Iraq adjacent to Turkey where the semi-autonomous Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) governs and due to huge oil deposits far more economic opportunities exist than in rural southeastern Turkey. But they have not left Turkey to do so.
Despite PKK's attempts to tear apart the social fabric of Turkey by fanning the flames of ethnic discord and hatred, it has not succeeded for 30 years and never will because there is far more that unites the Turks and Kurds in the nation they share than divides them.
7
you are not correct to say that "most of the Kurds living in Turkey actually migrated from Ira1 in 1991". That is not true, the Kurds had millions of people living in South Eastern Turkey before 1991.
You are obviously biased and have been fed wrong information by the brutal Turkish government.
The Kurds are not terrorists, they are rebels revolting agains a brutal regime that won't even let them speak their own language.
You are obviously biased and have been fed wrong information by the brutal Turkish government.
The Kurds are not terrorists, they are rebels revolting agains a brutal regime that won't even let them speak their own language.
11
Continuing from previous post..
6. Turkish security forces suffered this many casualties mainly because
a. They tried to sweep and clear the area on foot, being the target of PKK militants. The militants are using western made rifles with advanced optical sights (supplied by US and Germany to Kurds in Syria&Iraq to fight IS.
b. PKK is using suicide bombers (very young, often children) to pose as civilians and approach the security forces
c. PKK has stock of unprecedented amount of explosives (a 15 tonnes of explosive shipment went wrong last week -villagers thought they were sheep thieves and followed them- and 16 villagers were killed in explosion)
PKK is a Maoist Terrorist group. They're no freedom fighters, they're more like the Shining Path, or FARC, or LTTA. Bear this in mind when reading about them in western press.
6. Turkish security forces suffered this many casualties mainly because
a. They tried to sweep and clear the area on foot, being the target of PKK militants. The militants are using western made rifles with advanced optical sights (supplied by US and Germany to Kurds in Syria&Iraq to fight IS.
b. PKK is using suicide bombers (very young, often children) to pose as civilians and approach the security forces
c. PKK has stock of unprecedented amount of explosives (a 15 tonnes of explosive shipment went wrong last week -villagers thought they were sheep thieves and followed them- and 16 villagers were killed in explosion)
PKK is a Maoist Terrorist group. They're no freedom fighters, they're more like the Shining Path, or FARC, or LTTA. Bear this in mind when reading about them in western press.
10
This piece needs some (mostly technical) clarifications/corrections to be fair:
1. PKK has planted countless number of IED's in the barricades, buildings dead bodies, etc. They're shooting at the soldiers and the police trying to advance in the streets. In several occasions they made whole buildings collapse with explosives while police were in for search.
2. Tanks are used in the streets to protect advancing soldiers from PKK marksmen, and to blow the IED traps in the barricades, buildings and every possible object, from a safe distance. The army doesn't simply shoot the buildings by tanks for destroying the town, as the author suggests. If that was the purpose, they could use artillery.
3. PKK militants have made holes on the building outer walls (to use for shooting and watching), and also made holes between adjacent apartment buildings for escape. They also threaten the civilians who fled the area
4. PKK guerillas are using the civilians as human shield, they are preventing them from leaving (there is a video of a PKK militant shooting at a car leaving the town with an AK47 and killing the driver, injuring his wife)
5. The missile used to shoot down a Turkish AH1W Super Cobra helicopter is a Russian model, most probably stolen/looted from a Syrian Army storage.
To be continued..
1. PKK has planted countless number of IED's in the barricades, buildings dead bodies, etc. They're shooting at the soldiers and the police trying to advance in the streets. In several occasions they made whole buildings collapse with explosives while police were in for search.
2. Tanks are used in the streets to protect advancing soldiers from PKK marksmen, and to blow the IED traps in the barricades, buildings and every possible object, from a safe distance. The army doesn't simply shoot the buildings by tanks for destroying the town, as the author suggests. If that was the purpose, they could use artillery.
3. PKK militants have made holes on the building outer walls (to use for shooting and watching), and also made holes between adjacent apartment buildings for escape. They also threaten the civilians who fled the area
4. PKK guerillas are using the civilians as human shield, they are preventing them from leaving (there is a video of a PKK militant shooting at a car leaving the town with an AK47 and killing the driver, injuring his wife)
5. The missile used to shoot down a Turkish AH1W Super Cobra helicopter is a Russian model, most probably stolen/looted from a Syrian Army storage.
To be continued..
9
What a one sided article, PKK killed thousands of innocent people, infants, children, women, men, they build and caused all these damage. And they are really equal citizens in Turkey, there are kurdish presidents, ministers, high profile bussineses, they can be anything they want. Ocalan's other name is "baby killer". This article is a terorist propoganda.
7
What a horrible and biased report. Let's forget about you are saying something like "terrorist who has a sweet smile" it actually has horrible misconceptions like "Erdoğan predicted ISIS victory", he actually said "Kobani is about the fall and world is watching. We need to train opposition in Syria and Iraq". It's a simple Kurdish manipulation and NY Times using it.
Those people who has "sweet smile" killed my cousin and i won't forgive them ever. If west continues to support PKK don't expect any sympathy from me when ISIS attacks your cities and kills civillians.
Those people who has "sweet smile" killed my cousin and i won't forgive them ever. If west continues to support PKK don't expect any sympathy from me when ISIS attacks your cities and kills civillians.
9
Lets simply replace the 'PKK' or 'PYD' in this article with 'Al-Qaeda', 'DAESH' or 'ISIS'. What would you then think, that the author is a terrorist sympathizer or would it be OK also?. In reality there is no-difference between either of them, calling them rebels or sympathizing with people that kill civilians and children, burn hospitals and machine gun doctors and teachers, that kidnap children make them kill for their cause... is inexcusably dark.
The real amount of ethnic Kurds in Turkey will probably be around 12-15 million mark, out of those only 0.5-1% support the PKK or are with the PKK. Look up the numbers of the Turkish army.
The situation at the moment is that the US both denying and supporting terrorists actively killing civilians in Turkey. The reality is that the US is supporting terrorists of Turkey since the 90's as to ease its job in Iraq, Syria. Most Turks are not only angry due to this, but also have begun to see the US as a threat, an enemy, not an trustworthy ally which will have very serious consequences in the near future for US plans in N. Africa, Asia and the ME.
There is a point where tolerance will run out, and Turkey will steamroll into both Iraq and Syria, to protect its borders as its 'allies' definitely couldn't care less, as seen time and time again... Turkey is ready to fight, 20+ million fit for military service, each with 12-18 month compulsory military service under their belts and enough arms... what will happen then? sanctions :)
The real amount of ethnic Kurds in Turkey will probably be around 12-15 million mark, out of those only 0.5-1% support the PKK or are with the PKK. Look up the numbers of the Turkish army.
The situation at the moment is that the US both denying and supporting terrorists actively killing civilians in Turkey. The reality is that the US is supporting terrorists of Turkey since the 90's as to ease its job in Iraq, Syria. Most Turks are not only angry due to this, but also have begun to see the US as a threat, an enemy, not an trustworthy ally which will have very serious consequences in the near future for US plans in N. Africa, Asia and the ME.
There is a point where tolerance will run out, and Turkey will steamroll into both Iraq and Syria, to protect its borders as its 'allies' definitely couldn't care less, as seen time and time again... Turkey is ready to fight, 20+ million fit for military service, each with 12-18 month compulsory military service under their belts and enough arms... what will happen then? sanctions :)
8
Sounds like supporting PKK is the very old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." How on earth do we ever decide who to support and who to oppose??
1
You cannot compare the Kurds to Al Queda or ISIS. They are completely different situations and causes.
The Kurds are not a religious fundamentalist group of criminals burning people alive in cages.
The Kurds are fighting an oppressive government, it's as simple as that.
The Kurds are not a religious fundamentalist group of criminals burning people alive in cages.
The Kurds are fighting an oppressive government, it's as simple as that.
3
Of course,replacing kurds with turks is great idea and best way to develop iran's arsenal
This is the most biased article I have ever read on NY times.
10
Really? What is your experience in the Kurdish region of Turkey?
2
It's a beautiful piece! The author shows how the youth romanticize violence in the struggle for independence while pointing out that if Turkey waged all out war it would be "like Kobani in reverse." The reader has every opportunity to consider whether they agree with the youth, or the more passive approach. I, for one, cannot decide which is the more effective course... So I guess I'll let the Mountain Turks decide for themselves how to get out from under that disgusting title.
3
First and foremost how can a human support an terrorist organization who kills innocent people by suicide bombing. How can it be romanticized? If it is possible what could you say against radical terrorists?
Should every humankind who is not satisfied with government policies establish his own state? Then what is democracy?
Such uninformed, unfair article. Looking at the general level of comments here, I can say that Mr. Trump, who discredited the current US politics on Middle East, is a very wise guy. Look at Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria... where is weapons of mass dectruction? where is democracy in Libya? what is going on in afghanistan, syria? Please do not poke your nose. Neither military operation nor comments in articles work.
Should every humankind who is not satisfied with government policies establish his own state? Then what is democracy?
Such uninformed, unfair article. Looking at the general level of comments here, I can say that Mr. Trump, who discredited the current US politics on Middle East, is a very wise guy. Look at Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria... where is weapons of mass dectruction? where is democracy in Libya? what is going on in afghanistan, syria? Please do not poke your nose. Neither military operation nor comments in articles work.
2
All societies have shameful pasts and blood covered hands. maybe Steve the Commoner think about that.
As one wise analyst put it:
'Ankara sees people distancing themselves from the PKK and thinks, "Well, they are staying away from the PKK, therefore they must be supporting us.” The PKK, on the other hand, misreads their attitude as, “Ah, they are distancing themselves from Ankara. Therefore we can win them over by proving our strength.
In reality, the anger of hundreds of thousands of Kurds is not against Ankara or the PKK, but the incessant clashes that severely disrupt their lives. Ankara and the PKK cannot understand that most of these people are furious with them both, with Ankara’s slogan of "Obey us" and the PKK’s “Rise and take up arms.” True victory will only come by winning the hearts and minds of the people of the region. The question now is, which side will be the first to succeed?'
As one wise analyst put it:
'Ankara sees people distancing themselves from the PKK and thinks, "Well, they are staying away from the PKK, therefore they must be supporting us.” The PKK, on the other hand, misreads their attitude as, “Ah, they are distancing themselves from Ankara. Therefore we can win them over by proving our strength.
In reality, the anger of hundreds of thousands of Kurds is not against Ankara or the PKK, but the incessant clashes that severely disrupt their lives. Ankara and the PKK cannot understand that most of these people are furious with them both, with Ankara’s slogan of "Obey us" and the PKK’s “Rise and take up arms.” True victory will only come by winning the hearts and minds of the people of the region. The question now is, which side will be the first to succeed?'
5
As output per unit of available energy declines worldwide there is more war, more tyranny. Autocrats promise to create prosperity for their followers, but nothing is created only stolen from others. The victims fight back but their efforts are in vain ...
With less prosperity to share widely. those with military power grab what they can for themselves. The process leaves permanent ruin in its wake as there is too little in the way of resources remaining to rebuild after the fighters have exhausted themselves and each other.
The faulty theory here is that war -- whether it is in Turkey, Syria, Sri Lanka or elsewhere -- is winnable. Instead, it is resource 'Conservation by Other Means™.
With less prosperity to share widely. those with military power grab what they can for themselves. The process leaves permanent ruin in its wake as there is too little in the way of resources remaining to rebuild after the fighters have exhausted themselves and each other.
The faulty theory here is that war -- whether it is in Turkey, Syria, Sri Lanka or elsewhere -- is winnable. Instead, it is resource 'Conservation by Other Means™.
1
Great article which highlights the many issues facing Kurds in Turkey and reasons why the youth pick up their weapons. Turkey as a country has always had its underlying problems since its inception, it's not built on solid foundations. Whether this is holding back religion, influence of the military, corruption and nepotism in politics, lack of freedom of expression etc..
By repressing Kurds for decades, it has become a self fulfilling prophecy that Turkey will one day be split. Forget about all the bluster from nationalist Turks here, its all a load of hot air. Switch through Turkish TV channels, you can see the industry of public grief. You will come across at least 10 funerals showing the coffin draped with the Turkish flag with wailing of parents in the background and emotional music. Dead soldiers should be shown respect of course, but these channels are used to keep the public in constant state of grief and anger. Politicians, instead of working to end this conflict through diplomatic means feed on this grief and anger for votes. It's like a merry-go-round.
It's impossible to speak of the Kurdish issue with anyone in Turkey. If you raised it, you will automatically get emotional anger and that would be the end of the conversation. The funny thing is, you can have the most liberal Turk talking to you about the need to compromise and open dialogue with Palestinians and Israelis, move the conversation about the Kurds in Turkey, they will start frothing at the mount.
By repressing Kurds for decades, it has become a self fulfilling prophecy that Turkey will one day be split. Forget about all the bluster from nationalist Turks here, its all a load of hot air. Switch through Turkish TV channels, you can see the industry of public grief. You will come across at least 10 funerals showing the coffin draped with the Turkish flag with wailing of parents in the background and emotional music. Dead soldiers should be shown respect of course, but these channels are used to keep the public in constant state of grief and anger. Politicians, instead of working to end this conflict through diplomatic means feed on this grief and anger for votes. It's like a merry-go-round.
It's impossible to speak of the Kurdish issue with anyone in Turkey. If you raised it, you will automatically get emotional anger and that would be the end of the conversation. The funny thing is, you can have the most liberal Turk talking to you about the need to compromise and open dialogue with Palestinians and Israelis, move the conversation about the Kurds in Turkey, they will start frothing at the mount.
8
Quite an ignorant post this and nothing but a silly rant. Show me witb examples that the Palestinians were allowed into the Knesset with 10% of the available total votes amd allowed to speak freely about changing the Constitition of Israel? Well, the Kurds got their chance and showed their true colors. They are not interested in a democratic voice, they want to make sure their drug lines are preserved by force. Nothing more than crooks really. So yeah, we have been living side by side with 14-15 million kurds (!!!) for a long time and yes ups and downs were there but the 1-2 % trying to topple a government by force will not be tolerated. Or do you also cheer for the IRA?
5
"It's impossible to speak of the Kurdish issue with anyone in Turkey. " Wrong. Kurdish issue is being discussed all the time. Not everyone is jingoistic in Turkey.
2
Funny you mentioned the IRA. Only a mature country could have reached a compromise and resolved their differences through dialogue. As my comment clearly shows, Turks or Turkey are not mature enough to have a grown up discussion. You call my comment a "rant" but you have done nothing but rant with your hopelessly ill informed post.
1
This link shows the humane manner in which the captured PKK terrorists are treated by the Turkish military: http://bit.ly/1s9nBAF
A far cry from what this biased article indicates.
A far cry from what this biased article indicates.
4
Year I agree. I mean, this civilian got tied to an APC, dragged through the city while the soldiers taunted to locals. If they do this to a civilian, one wonders what happens to captured PKK fighters. ;)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3262116/Turkish-officials-defend...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3262116/Turkish-officials-defend...
Maps are among the most deceiving coded storytelling devices ever invented. When we look at a map, what exactly are we looking at? Someone has said (usefully but inadequately) that a line on a map is where an army stopped marching one day.
Political maps are so much simpler than what hides inside their neat pastel certainties. Here is A, and there is B. Uh, probably not so much.
Maps at their most useful call us as viewers to a kind of Now-ness, a utilitarian historical amnesia. As Charles Kingsley said, "Happy is the people who have no history." Complexity, especially the kind of sordid, violent, compromised, historical sort makes us sad and hesitant, less certain, less patriotic. The colors on the maps begin to bleed into one another. Not good.
Turkey is far from unique. It is the remnant of a land empire, the rump of much larger space in which one group of people in a distant past with some set of advantages marched in various directions do, what? "important work for God and country? Who knows?
The real question is how long and in what way are the explanations and justifications invented later to make such "work" necessary, inevitable, and moral, how are these invisible ghosts of history and culture to be maintained NOW? How long, how ruthlessly hermetic will they be?
Apparently some people are fully ready for another round. Hence the elegiac perfume of tragedy that hangs over this powerful, understated piece of journalism. Well done Mr. Worth.
Political maps are so much simpler than what hides inside their neat pastel certainties. Here is A, and there is B. Uh, probably not so much.
Maps at their most useful call us as viewers to a kind of Now-ness, a utilitarian historical amnesia. As Charles Kingsley said, "Happy is the people who have no history." Complexity, especially the kind of sordid, violent, compromised, historical sort makes us sad and hesitant, less certain, less patriotic. The colors on the maps begin to bleed into one another. Not good.
Turkey is far from unique. It is the remnant of a land empire, the rump of much larger space in which one group of people in a distant past with some set of advantages marched in various directions do, what? "important work for God and country? Who knows?
The real question is how long and in what way are the explanations and justifications invented later to make such "work" necessary, inevitable, and moral, how are these invisible ghosts of history and culture to be maintained NOW? How long, how ruthlessly hermetic will they be?
Apparently some people are fully ready for another round. Hence the elegiac perfume of tragedy that hangs over this powerful, understated piece of journalism. Well done Mr. Worth.
12
One of the saddest reporting I have ever read.
The more I read this article, the more I am disgusted. Here is why:
> "the defenders kept them at bay with a mix of well-placed
> roadside bombs and snipers."
Those "well-placed" bombs killed soldiers and security personnel. Those "defenders" are terrorists.
What kind of reporting is this, glorifying terrorism? Shame on Robert Worth and shame on NYT for printing it.
> "the defenders kept them at bay with a mix of well-placed
> roadside bombs and snipers."
Those "well-placed" bombs killed soldiers and security personnel. Those "defenders" are terrorists.
What kind of reporting is this, glorifying terrorism? Shame on Robert Worth and shame on NYT for printing it.
11
So rather than the Kurds defending themselves they should just welcome the Turkish military that are sent there to kill them?
That's an interesting idea, mmmm….
That's an interesting idea, mmmm….
What do ISIS, the Taliban and the PKK have in common? Being considered as terror organizations? All check. Carrying out suicide bombings in major cities like Paris, Ankara and Kabul and killing hundreds of civilians? All check. Accused of ethnic cleansing? Yes for ISIS and the PKK affiliate PYD in Syria. Accused of kidnapping and employing child fighters? Check. The difference then? The PKK is the pet of the West. They are even protected by the police if they set up tents for propaganda in Brussels. And this 7000 word essay reeking of propaganda readily reflects this.
The PKK has destroyed thousands of lives and homes yet the West choses to romanticizes them because they serve their interest. No amount of lipstick the West tries to put on the PKK with such articles will make the evil of PKK look any better.
And ending the story by mentioning that a 5-6 months old baby "knows" the motivation of PKK terrorists is crude Soviet style propaganda. Studies show that babies can smell fear and sense their mother's emotions. It is more plausible that the mother was terrorized at the sight of the terrorist and the baby sensing that stopped crying. The Turks are not the antagonists here the PKK is. Shame on you NYT.
The PKK has destroyed thousands of lives and homes yet the West choses to romanticizes them because they serve their interest. No amount of lipstick the West tries to put on the PKK with such articles will make the evil of PKK look any better.
And ending the story by mentioning that a 5-6 months old baby "knows" the motivation of PKK terrorists is crude Soviet style propaganda. Studies show that babies can smell fear and sense their mother's emotions. It is more plausible that the mother was terrorized at the sight of the terrorist and the baby sensing that stopped crying. The Turks are not the antagonists here the PKK is. Shame on you NYT.
4
Some real reporting, a treat these days. Well done MR. Worth and Times!
I wish more "boots on the ground" were reporters instead of soldiers.
I wish more "boots on the ground" were reporters instead of soldiers.
9
Finally a comprehensive piece on the Kurds of Turkey. It's been painful to see the newspapers' lack of interest in their plights.
6
Kurds inside Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran should have their own independent state.
Persians inside Iran should have their own independent state.
Turks inside Turkey, Syria and Iraq should have their own independent state.
Armenians inside Turkey, Iraq and Iran should have their own independent state.
Alawites inside Syria and Lebanon should have their own independent state.
Druze inside Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel should have their own independent state.
Shiite Arabs inside Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Iraq should have their own independent state.
Sunni Arabs inside Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and Iraq should have their own independent state.
Bedouin inside Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Iraq should have their own independent state.
Jews throughout the Middle East should have their own independent state.
Palestinian Arabs, be they Sunni and Shiite inside Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza should have their own independent state.
If you want peace.
If you want war -- vicious sectarian strife punctuated by outbreaks of outright genocide, keep the current arrangements. These empower some religious and ethnic groups (Turks, Jews, Alawites, Persians, Sunnis, Shiites) to dominate and oppress other weaker ethnic groups who, understandably, rebel against their oppression.
Persians inside Iran should have their own independent state.
Turks inside Turkey, Syria and Iraq should have their own independent state.
Armenians inside Turkey, Iraq and Iran should have their own independent state.
Alawites inside Syria and Lebanon should have their own independent state.
Druze inside Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel should have their own independent state.
Shiite Arabs inside Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Iraq should have their own independent state.
Sunni Arabs inside Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and Iraq should have their own independent state.
Bedouin inside Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Iraq should have their own independent state.
Jews throughout the Middle East should have their own independent state.
Palestinian Arabs, be they Sunni and Shiite inside Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza should have their own independent state.
If you want peace.
If you want war -- vicious sectarian strife punctuated by outbreaks of outright genocide, keep the current arrangements. These empower some religious and ethnic groups (Turks, Jews, Alawites, Persians, Sunnis, Shiites) to dominate and oppress other weaker ethnic groups who, understandably, rebel against their oppression.
2
@ Steve Singer - Here is a list of some of the groups here in the USA seeking their own “independent states”:
Alaska – Alaskan Independence Party (as the name specifies).
California –Californians for Independence, for the Third Californian Republic.
Hawaii – Hawaii Independence Party, for a Nation of Hawai’i.
New Hampshire – Free State Project, Granite Stater, New Hampshirite.
Texas – Texas Nationalist Movement (TNM), for The Republic of Texas.
Vermont – Vermont Independence Party, for a Second Vermont Republic.
Regional Groups:
Cascadia Independence Movement, for a Cascadia nation.
Northwest Front, for a Northwest American Republic.
Territories:
Puerto Rico – Puerto Rican Independence Party; Puerto Rican Nationalist Party; Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano (MINH); Socialist Front (SF); Puerto Rican Independence Movement (MPI); for making Puerto Rico an independent nation.
Puerto Rican Terrorist Organization – Boricua Popular Army (Macheteros).
The group claimed responsibility for the 1978 bombing of a small power station in the San Juan area, the 1979 retaliation attacks against the United States armed forces personnel, the 1981 attacks on Puerto Rico Air National Guard aircraft, and a 1983 Wells Fargo bank robbery. Boricua Popular Army was led primarily by former FBI fugitive Filiberto Ojeda Ríos until his killing by the FBI in 2005.
The moral of the story: Be careful about what you wish for your neighbors lest it burn down your own house.
Alaska – Alaskan Independence Party (as the name specifies).
California –Californians for Independence, for the Third Californian Republic.
Hawaii – Hawaii Independence Party, for a Nation of Hawai’i.
New Hampshire – Free State Project, Granite Stater, New Hampshirite.
Texas – Texas Nationalist Movement (TNM), for The Republic of Texas.
Vermont – Vermont Independence Party, for a Second Vermont Republic.
Regional Groups:
Cascadia Independence Movement, for a Cascadia nation.
Northwest Front, for a Northwest American Republic.
Territories:
Puerto Rico – Puerto Rican Independence Party; Puerto Rican Nationalist Party; Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano (MINH); Socialist Front (SF); Puerto Rican Independence Movement (MPI); for making Puerto Rico an independent nation.
Puerto Rican Terrorist Organization – Boricua Popular Army (Macheteros).
The group claimed responsibility for the 1978 bombing of a small power station in the San Juan area, the 1979 retaliation attacks against the United States armed forces personnel, the 1981 attacks on Puerto Rico Air National Guard aircraft, and a 1983 Wells Fargo bank robbery. Boricua Popular Army was led primarily by former FBI fugitive Filiberto Ojeda Ríos until his killing by the FBI in 2005.
The moral of the story: Be careful about what you wish for your neighbors lest it burn down your own house.
8
The Turkish people have a shameful past and hands covered in blood.
3
And which people throughout history do not "have a shameful past and hands covered in blood"? First look in the mirror.
4
And the U.S.? Obliteration of the native American population, slavery, Vietnam, support for child labor in China... every country has skeletons.
4
And native Americans would say the same thing about us. Those who live in glass houses ...
5
Just a little remainder about Turkey
When after 1945 Europe lay in ruins and Greece was going through a bloody merciless civil war after years of occupation and starvation by the Nazi forces, Turkish army albeit helped by second hand arms and equipment left behind in Europe by the USA armed forces stood guard against then USSR as a member of NATO. While Europe licked its wounds tried to get back on its feet it was the Turks guarding south Eastern frontiers of Europe. This is just to refresh memories a little bit lest we forget that had the USSR decided on a Hot War instead of Cold, it would have been the Turks who would have borne the brunt of Soviet onslaught give Europe a some time to pull itself together before USA could come to the aid of Europe.
When after 1945 Europe lay in ruins and Greece was going through a bloody merciless civil war after years of occupation and starvation by the Nazi forces, Turkish army albeit helped by second hand arms and equipment left behind in Europe by the USA armed forces stood guard against then USSR as a member of NATO. While Europe licked its wounds tried to get back on its feet it was the Turks guarding south Eastern frontiers of Europe. This is just to refresh memories a little bit lest we forget that had the USSR decided on a Hot War instead of Cold, it would have been the Turks who would have borne the brunt of Soviet onslaught give Europe a some time to pull itself together before USA could come to the aid of Europe.
14
@LCG:
Sounds great. But I think America's A-bomb monopoly that lasted into the early 1950's plus the detritus of the Great Patriotic War (utter devastation of much of the western Soviet Union, 20-25-million dead and at least 1-million crippled wounded) had more to do with it.
Sounds great. But I think America's A-bomb monopoly that lasted into the early 1950's plus the detritus of the Great Patriotic War (utter devastation of much of the western Soviet Union, 20-25-million dead and at least 1-million crippled wounded) had more to do with it.
2
Dear Robert F. Worth,
The Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) is an armed terrorist organization, listed by the United States, NATO, Turkey, and the European Union.
The PKK has caused approximately 40,000 casualties.
According Global Terrorism Index, PKK is the Most Active Terrorist Groups in the OECD: "The PKK is responsible for the most terrorist deaths in the OECD in the last five years. The waves of violence waged by the PKK in the 1990’s are estimated to have caused approximately 40,000 casualties.
In the past five years the PKK has been responsible for 29 per cent of all deaths from terrorism in the OECD.
OECD countries attacked in last five years: Turkey¬
Incidents in last five years in OECD countries: 156¬
Fatalities in last five years in OECD countries: 129"
Source: Global Terrorism Index 2014
We would expect from you to share the information; How many deaths is the PKK responsible for?
How many civilian deaths included, children, teachers, civil servants, and off-duty police officers is the PKK responsible for?
Thank you.
The Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) is an armed terrorist organization, listed by the United States, NATO, Turkey, and the European Union.
The PKK has caused approximately 40,000 casualties.
According Global Terrorism Index, PKK is the Most Active Terrorist Groups in the OECD: "The PKK is responsible for the most terrorist deaths in the OECD in the last five years. The waves of violence waged by the PKK in the 1990’s are estimated to have caused approximately 40,000 casualties.
In the past five years the PKK has been responsible for 29 per cent of all deaths from terrorism in the OECD.
OECD countries attacked in last five years: Turkey¬
Incidents in last five years in OECD countries: 156¬
Fatalities in last five years in OECD countries: 129"
Source: Global Terrorism Index 2014
We would expect from you to share the information; How many deaths is the PKK responsible for?
How many civilian deaths included, children, teachers, civil servants, and off-duty police officers is the PKK responsible for?
Thank you.
25
Who gets on or off a terrorist list is a political and diplomatic decision that has little to do with terrorism and much to do with propaganda and alliances. Terrorist lists are part of the rhetoric of the Middle East and have as much relation to what is really going on as the rest of Middle Eastern rhetoric.
Suicide bombs are terrorist weapons, but drone strikes are not. Dum-dum bullets, with slits in the nose so that they spread out and do more damage on impact, are illegal. The smaller rounds used today are designed to tumble when they hit a body, doing more damage, but they are legal, as are plastic mines whose fragments do not show up on x-rays and must be felt for in wounds.
Constant propaganda is a major ingredient of our problems.
Suicide bombs are terrorist weapons, but drone strikes are not. Dum-dum bullets, with slits in the nose so that they spread out and do more damage on impact, are illegal. The smaller rounds used today are designed to tumble when they hit a body, doing more damage, but they are legal, as are plastic mines whose fragments do not show up on x-rays and must be felt for in wounds.
Constant propaganda is a major ingredient of our problems.
I wonder why exactly is the PKK considered (still) a terrorist organization. The Kurds are overdue a state of their own, and in Turkey at least a much stronger federated control of the areas where they are a majority.
The latest round of violence can be blamed directly on Erdogan, who proves every day that he is an authoritarian megalomaniac who is using the Kurdish question to try to change the Turkish Constitution to amass even more personal power.
All this is bad for the Kurds, but it is also bad for the Turks. I hope the US does not abandon the Kurds this time. This is a very sad situation.
The latest round of violence can be blamed directly on Erdogan, who proves every day that he is an authoritarian megalomaniac who is using the Kurdish question to try to change the Turkish Constitution to amass even more personal power.
All this is bad for the Kurds, but it is also bad for the Turks. I hope the US does not abandon the Kurds this time. This is a very sad situation.
7
This is such a biased piece. It clearly tries to romanticize the Kurdish Rebels. This is the kind of piece that totally undermines the Times claims of neutrality. In my opinion (and I am fairly liberal) the Wall Street Journal has become a much better newspaper than the Times and able to proved a more balanced picture. I read both regularly, but have a higher opinion of the WSJ
22
In your opinion, what information should the article provide to be more fair?
1
Long live the Kurdish nation!!! Of ALL middle eastern governments, the Kurdish people have the best. Their entire way of life 9s derived from Bookchin, and they want to live in the socialist paradise Marx actually envisioned. Their women are complete equals to their men. Unlike the jerks who keep pushing to deny women jobs in the Marine Corps, the Peshmerga have many female battalions. led by females, who have been killing more ISIS fanatics than any other group.
They deserve a nation. Turkey should be denied entry to the EU and thrown out of NATO. Their dictatorial president is almost as bad as Putin.
They deserve a nation. Turkey should be denied entry to the EU and thrown out of NATO. Their dictatorial president is almost as bad as Putin.
13
You must not have read the article. It clearly states that Turks played a major role in the establishment of Northern Iraqi Kurdish state. It is the terror that Kurds and their handlers, the US, are involved in that is the problem. You should be ashamed of showing any sympathy to people who murdered innocent people by car bombs and suicide bombings. But this kind of support, if you are an American, you loose the right to complain about the terror inflicted on you.
6
Kick Turkey out of NATO. Carve out southern Turkey for the Kurds so they can have their own country. Make this new country a member of NATO.
11
Sounds like somebody's plan for the Armenians about 100 years ago. Hmm, then what happened?
9
This is one more civil war that America should stay out of. Totally out! No arms to Turkey and no arms to anyone else regardless of how much damage they can do to ISIS or Assad. Its none of our business. If we can offer humanitarian aid such as food, water and medical services then we should do so, but only in neutral setting agreed to by all parties. And that would pretty much exclude that prospect out of hand.
Erdogan is no friend of the United States. He's merely a pawn that we exploit when it suits our needs. Turkey too is a nation that we use for our own convenience when opposing Russia, Assad, or ISIS. Remember how Turkey turned down the U.S. when we wanted to invade Iraq from the North through Turkey? That was when we should have terminated all relations with Turkey. Surely they are not an ally.
Its time to asses the real value of Turkey. Maybe advising Turkey that we're thinking of closing Incirlik however inconvenient that would be to the U.S. would send a message that no matter how critical Turkey thinks that base is we'd rather do without that base than do business with dictator who butchers his own citizens and suppresses opposition and democracy.
Erdogan is no friend of the United States. He's merely a pawn that we exploit when it suits our needs. Turkey too is a nation that we use for our own convenience when opposing Russia, Assad, or ISIS. Remember how Turkey turned down the U.S. when we wanted to invade Iraq from the North through Turkey? That was when we should have terminated all relations with Turkey. Surely they are not an ally.
Its time to asses the real value of Turkey. Maybe advising Turkey that we're thinking of closing Incirlik however inconvenient that would be to the U.S. would send a message that no matter how critical Turkey thinks that base is we'd rather do without that base than do business with dictator who butchers his own citizens and suppresses opposition and democracy.
6
Short sighted and mislead opinions.
When a country considers their own interest instead of USA, then they are not an ally. Isn't it that the same thing for this particular country. The meaning of "Ally" is not to follow all the orders of the US governments. Every country has the right to choose the best for its own interests.
2
The article dares to say what US officials have not: "Erdogan’s government has itself supported hard-line Islamist militias in Syria — including some with ties to Al Qaeda." Nuff said.
14
this is lie.
1
Erdogan is a super useful tool at the hands of the US. CIA is in big cahoots masterminding whole Syrian (ehem, so called starting with the Arab Spring.!)
First, one needs to read little history on how Erdogan had been nurtured by Neocons all the way back in 1990s when he was the mayor of Istanbul from a hard core religious party. Then, how he got carried to government and appointed as Vice Chairman of Greater Middle Eastern Plan drawn by no other than hard core Neocons (Wolfowitz, Condi Rice among others)..
Erdogan would be gone in a New York minute should the US wishes! Watch what the US does, not what the talking heads from the administration say!
First, one needs to read little history on how Erdogan had been nurtured by Neocons all the way back in 1990s when he was the mayor of Istanbul from a hard core religious party. Then, how he got carried to government and appointed as Vice Chairman of Greater Middle Eastern Plan drawn by no other than hard core Neocons (Wolfowitz, Condi Rice among others)..
Erdogan would be gone in a New York minute should the US wishes! Watch what the US does, not what the talking heads from the administration say!
3
Really?!?! And the US is not supporting Kurdish terorists, PKK/YPG? It is bizarre that you are ok with US making up fake evidence of WMDs to invade Iraq which created the grounds for ISIS; and now, supporting one terrorists, Kurds, fight another, ISIS? Invasion of Iraq murdered hundreds of thousands of Arabs, displaced millions, and, split up the middle east. The US appears to be getting in bed with terrorists only to blame them for the consequences. You need to examine your own principles before pointing fingers to others.
2
Glorying/romanticizing terror is not a solution. "But they gained admirers all over the world", how cute! When Kurds are doing the dying and killing instead of Westerners, they got instant admirers in the West. Actually, Kurds are totally useless against ISIS: just check the maps. The PKK has been supported by Russians, as a pet project, with the sole purpose of destabilizing Turkey, a NATO ally, but clearly it doesn't matter much. The timing of the most recent PKK aggression is really telling (not mentioned in the article): only a few weeks before the Russians came to Syria, PKK executed two police officers in their beds - point blank. It happened during Turkey's "Kurdish Opening" while a cease fire was in effect. During this time, the Turkish public was ready for civil rights for the Kurdish minority, a Kurdish candidate run for President, and the Kurdish party got to the Parliament. Things were looking up for the Kurds in Turkey, then Russians decided to save Essad and all the bets were off. And these all stroke well the centuries-old Turkish existentialism: no friends in our fights, this is war, people die in war, it is better you than me, it is better there than here. Finally, regarding the picture with the caption "Kurdish residents of Cizre returning to their destroyed", Look carefully, it is actually not destroyed, and all these towns were dingy to start with. The holes in the walls are PKK defense lines, meaning they themselves put them there.
20
you should write your mind in bold face that anatolia contains not only turks but also kurds as well, and should not be their rights suppressed to live in there equally. "kurdish opennins" was only a toy played/managed by Tayyip Erdoğan to get kurds'votes and succeeded in the last three general elections except the last one! the table of peace talk betwween parties lasted many years was thrown by Tayyip Erdoğan to compansate his party's defeat on 7/june general election. he exploited ISIS, which freely operates in cities of antep and adiyaman, to kill many innocent people of HDP fans and furthermore violated ceasefire first by making operations against PKK with the use of Jandarma. as result he increased hatred between turkish and kurdish people to get nationalist votes from turkish side and scared civilian kurdish people to get their votes once he lost. PKK never claimed responsibility of killing two innocent police officers... figure out yourself; but, tayyip erdoğan had used these two killings to launch its bloody campaign against kurdish civilians.
1
@ Henry Stone who wrote “PKK never claimed responsibility of killing two innocent police officers”:
If you indeed hail from Ankara, Turkey as you claim, then you should know very well that the PKK openly claimed responsibility for the murder of the two Turkish police officers while sleeping in their home within two days of the crime. A fact widely reported not only in the Turkish press but internationally as well:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/kurdish-group-claims-revenge-murde...
Your playing fast and loose with the facts does not end there. With regard to your baseless assertion that Turkish leader Erdogan “exploited ISIS … to kill many innocent people of HDP fans” presumably referring to the attack by an ISIL suicide bomber at a Kurdish HDP rally in Suruc on 20 July 2015; not a shred of evidence has ever been shown to connect the Turkish government to the ISIL attack on the Kurdish rally. Considering that the Kurds were fighting ISIL in Syria, ISIL hardly needed Turkish coaxing to have targeted the Kurds.
Also, talk about violating the ceasefire; what do you call some of the Kurdish mayors in southeastern Turkey having lent their cities bulldozers and other heavy equipment to the terrorist PKK and its affiliates so they could excavate and place remotely controlled bombs under public roads in the region for future use against Turkish police and military vehicles? Hardly good faith negotiating on the part of the Kurds is it?
If you indeed hail from Ankara, Turkey as you claim, then you should know very well that the PKK openly claimed responsibility for the murder of the two Turkish police officers while sleeping in their home within two days of the crime. A fact widely reported not only in the Turkish press but internationally as well:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/kurdish-group-claims-revenge-murde...
Your playing fast and loose with the facts does not end there. With regard to your baseless assertion that Turkish leader Erdogan “exploited ISIS … to kill many innocent people of HDP fans” presumably referring to the attack by an ISIL suicide bomber at a Kurdish HDP rally in Suruc on 20 July 2015; not a shred of evidence has ever been shown to connect the Turkish government to the ISIL attack on the Kurdish rally. Considering that the Kurds were fighting ISIL in Syria, ISIL hardly needed Turkish coaxing to have targeted the Kurds.
Also, talk about violating the ceasefire; what do you call some of the Kurdish mayors in southeastern Turkey having lent their cities bulldozers and other heavy equipment to the terrorist PKK and its affiliates so they could excavate and place remotely controlled bombs under public roads in the region for future use against Turkish police and military vehicles? Hardly good faith negotiating on the part of the Kurds is it?
1
@EMIP
no; i back my word PKK never claimed the responsibility of that incident. the reference you cited did not refer to PKK officials or PKK's media sites.
here you go from a first hand disclaim from top officer of PKK organization: http://www.chpgundemi.com/karayilan-ceylanpinardaki-iki-polisi-biz-oldur...
I am not trying to defend PKK, but it was the turkish government which started talks with that organization and ceasefire lasted for many years. kurds won the general election of nov 2nd by 80 congressmen and AKP lost majority. ask yourself who might get benefit by intensifying hatred between these two nations... why do you think hakan fidan, head of national intelligent agency, had been forced to return his post even though he was already resigned just before the massacre in Suruc that caused killing of dozens of civilians...
I love my country but love all people live in anatolia.
no; i back my word PKK never claimed the responsibility of that incident. the reference you cited did not refer to PKK officials or PKK's media sites.
here you go from a first hand disclaim from top officer of PKK organization: http://www.chpgundemi.com/karayilan-ceylanpinardaki-iki-polisi-biz-oldur...
I am not trying to defend PKK, but it was the turkish government which started talks with that organization and ceasefire lasted for many years. kurds won the general election of nov 2nd by 80 congressmen and AKP lost majority. ask yourself who might get benefit by intensifying hatred between these two nations... why do you think hakan fidan, head of national intelligent agency, had been forced to return his post even though he was already resigned just before the massacre in Suruc that caused killing of dozens of civilians...
I love my country but love all people live in anatolia.
1
The Turks were our friends in Kora. Today they have become an oppressive state. The Kurds have long been mistreated in the area. G.W. Bush had the opportunity to give them their own state by declaring their part of Iraq, Kurdistan.
His cowardly rejection of that goes directly to Cheney and the oil companies. We based our spy planes in Turkey, they were very friendly at the time, but his Erdogan has turned Turkey into an Islamic state. What migt stop this destruction of Kurdish towns and the killing of civilians, is for the U.S. to send military advisors to their area, and to take the PKK of the terrorist list. Let the Turks know we mean business.
The Turks are becoming terrorists themselves.
His cowardly rejection of that goes directly to Cheney and the oil companies. We based our spy planes in Turkey, they were very friendly at the time, but his Erdogan has turned Turkey into an Islamic state. What migt stop this destruction of Kurdish towns and the killing of civilians, is for the U.S. to send military advisors to their area, and to take the PKK of the terrorist list. Let the Turks know we mean business.
The Turks are becoming terrorists themselves.
9
As it pertains to this story, why would we think to include Israel with Turkey and Saudi Arabia? Israel maybe the best ally the Kurds have.
Kurds don't have real allies, and they know it. Their 'friends' at the moment will be there just as long is it convenient
1
"...when the fighting broke out, Kurdish youth affiliated with the PKK built barricades around several neighborhoods making up about half the town. The Turks initiated several short military operations during the autumn and winter, but the defenders kept them at bay with a mix of well-placed roadside bombs and snipers"
Those of us who lived through the Washington, DC riots in 1968 and the LA Riots in 1992 when 55 people were killed can well imagine the anarchy/insurgency that the Turks have to deal with. Imagine rioters or terrorists armed with high explosives, sniper rifles, machine guns and shoulder fired missiles being used against National Guard helicopters.
And yet our country supports, trains and arms the Kurdish PYD (Democratic Union Party), and by extension, its militant wing the YPG (so-called "People's Protection Units") in Syria in an effort to fight the ISIS; knowing full well that a large number of those weapons ends up across the border in Turkey where they are used by the Kurdish terrorist organization PKK and its affiliates to murder the police and soldiers of our NATO ally Turkey.
It is amazing that a respectable newspaper like the NY Times would print rubbish like a baseless assertion by some nameless Kurd that the Turks are telling them "If you refuse to be slaves, we will kill you"; knowing full well that the Kurds are free to speak their own language, have schools teaching in Kurdish, their own radio stations and 59 Kurd representatives in Parliament.
Those of us who lived through the Washington, DC riots in 1968 and the LA Riots in 1992 when 55 people were killed can well imagine the anarchy/insurgency that the Turks have to deal with. Imagine rioters or terrorists armed with high explosives, sniper rifles, machine guns and shoulder fired missiles being used against National Guard helicopters.
And yet our country supports, trains and arms the Kurdish PYD (Democratic Union Party), and by extension, its militant wing the YPG (so-called "People's Protection Units") in Syria in an effort to fight the ISIS; knowing full well that a large number of those weapons ends up across the border in Turkey where they are used by the Kurdish terrorist organization PKK and its affiliates to murder the police and soldiers of our NATO ally Turkey.
It is amazing that a respectable newspaper like the NY Times would print rubbish like a baseless assertion by some nameless Kurd that the Turks are telling them "If you refuse to be slaves, we will kill you"; knowing full well that the Kurds are free to speak their own language, have schools teaching in Kurdish, their own radio stations and 59 Kurd representatives in Parliament.
20
The Kurds need their own country.
14
yeahh also indians,need a country..They have to seperate fm USA ? is that good ?
They already have a country in Iraq, with its capital Erbil. :)
1
It is a bad thing if ISIS fighters blow themselves up to kill scores of civilians, but when PKK explodes bombs or its fighters blow themselves up in the city centers, killing dozens of innocent civilians,
a) it is a good thing
b) our boys can't have been this barbaric
c) my terrorist is better than your terrorist
d) all terrorists are equal but some terrorists are more equal
e) suppress it so that few know it
f) I respect the rights of female terrorists
*This question was taken from the Common Core.
a) it is a good thing
b) our boys can't have been this barbaric
c) my terrorist is better than your terrorist
d) all terrorists are equal but some terrorists are more equal
e) suppress it so that few know it
f) I respect the rights of female terrorists
*This question was taken from the Common Core.
22
Erdogan is just a little too big for his boots. He's pushing around the European Union and the USA as if his geographic positioning gives him the leverage to out-maneuver the world's leading economic and political powers. He's heading for a big, well-deserved let-down, if not a crash. There isn't enough vested interest in Turkey to comply with his nonsense and the distaste and political liabilities for dealing with his increasingly repressive regime grows by the month where it matters most to Turkey's long-term interests for integration with the international community.
9
Too reminiscent of the Armenian genocide.
11
What genocide is that? No such thing. Wartime atrocities committed by both sides, when more Turks were killed than Armenians.
3
or, Turkish, depending on which side you were!
Ok, let’s put it this way so that people unfamiliar with what’s going on can discern the situation better: a group of Mexican guerrillas called YPG cross the Mexican border and join another group of fighters called PKK, already based in the USA, which aim to ‘liberate’ El Paso, claiming that the city has historically been a Mexican city and Mexicans actually constitute the majority in the city. YPG, PKK and local ‘civilian’ sympathizers join forces to arm themselves. As a joint venture, PKK and YPG deploy IEDs everywhere in El Paso that you can possibly imagine or can’t imagine, literally in every building, under carpets, inside Bible. Getting help from the mayor of El Paso, a PKK sympathizer, they even manage to find cranes to deploy IEDs under the asphalt roads. Surprisingly and inhumanely, the American government isn’t tolerating people to wave the flags of PKK. Even more surprisingly, Obama declares curfew, calls in the national guard. As a result of the clashes between American soldiers and PKK, some soldiers die, and many PKK fighters, not to be confused with terrorists, die too. Shielding themselves behind civilians and even preventing locals from exiting the city, PKK shoots American soldiers. The American soldiers are careful not to hit civilians, but despite being rare, ‘collateral damage’ happens. PKK wants to unite Mexicans in El Paso with Mexicans in Ciudad Juarez aka Kobani, where Russia sends military 'advisors'.
27
Except the Kurds have brutally oppressed and discriminated by the Turks since the formation the of the Turkish state, and Kurds make 20% of the population. These issues didn't just start last week!
I really think you're trying to prove that you don't understand what has and it going on.
I really think you're trying to prove that you don't understand what has and it going on.
2
I find it difficult to say anything nice about Turkey.
16
I am sure the Indians say the same thing about you.
10
I agree with you, time to kick them out of NATO or the US needs to leave NATO.
1
You mean the Native Americans wouldn't have said if they weren't extinct.
1
With friends like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Israel who needs enemies when we are own worst enemy. America right now sure looks like a big hypocrite right now. America says they are fighting terrorism but yet they are supporting wahhabbi radical Islam in Saudi Arabia and a autocrat in Turkey when are we going to evaluate who are real friends are really are.
21
The US would be better off leaving NATO and pulling out of the middle east. Everything they have done from Bush invading Irag to present has been a disaster.
4
If I were betting the Kurds against Erdogan, the Kurds would win. We have seen their bravery in the battle against ISIS just as we have watched Turkey's tepid response to the refugee crisis. Once again Merkel has made a deal with the devil, to cover he missteps. Turkey in not the west's friend and nor should it be an ally. Any leader that builds a 150 million dollar parade to him self while not taking that money to help it's own people, is the epitome of corruption. We should not give weight to anyone, in any country, who seeks to repress women. Likewise we should not encourage countries led by narcissistic leaders for life, especially ones who have sharp religious views. Angela Merkel can make deals with other governments, only when they give up their radical view of the Kurds, who are clearly our real ally
7
Parade = palace? Are you referring to the Ak Sarayi? Seems it was 615 million USD equivalent. http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/24/370931835/turkeys-presi...
Clearly 'allies' change over time as we had agreed that the PKK were terrorists remember? And now they're friends?
This is an attempt by the establishment in the US, by way of planting these types of articles, improving the image of Kurds, who are otherwise organized under murderous terrorist organizations PKK/PJK or recently YPG. The US is getting the Kurds fight its own wars in the Middle East: It is fighting ISIS, one terrorists, with another, PKK?YPG.
9
This NATO member has been committing atrocities against the Kurds for decades. An estimate 3,000 Kurdish villages have been wiped out while the Western press including the New York Times have mostly silent.
10
Eli, you do know that the Kurdish language is Turkish dialect, do you not. Ataturk knew this. He also protected Kurdish culture and language ( a policy continued under Turkish regimes following him), unlike the governments of Bulgaria, Greece and Cyprus regarding their Turkish populations.
You need to read some of his books and educate yourself as to his views.
You need to read some of his books and educate yourself as to his views.
3
Yoda How does your statement square with the following from this article??
"The founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, was bent on melding his fractious array of peoples into a single, homogeneous state. Starting under his rule in 1923, the Kurds, whose presence in the area goes back well over a thousand years, were rebranded “mountain Turks,” their language and customs suppressed. Kurdish schools, organizations and publications were forbidden; even the words “Kurd” and “Kurdistan” were prohibited. Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled to western Turkey and Europe, and the southeast became a neglected backwater."
"The founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, was bent on melding his fractious array of peoples into a single, homogeneous state. Starting under his rule in 1923, the Kurds, whose presence in the area goes back well over a thousand years, were rebranded “mountain Turks,” their language and customs suppressed. Kurdish schools, organizations and publications were forbidden; even the words “Kurd” and “Kurdistan” were prohibited. Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled to western Turkey and Europe, and the southeast became a neglected backwater."
6
Where do you get your weird linguistic ideas from, Turkish, which I know reasonably well and Kurdish (kurmaji) which I have a basic comand of are not even in the same language groups, Kurmanji is actually closer to my native Norwegian, being a indo european language. Sorry, your wrong, there are obviously common words, but otherwise there is no similarity whatsoever.
1
Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel? these are the best allies we can come up with?
7
Yes.
1
Give Turkey and Saudi the boot then partner with Russia and Syria. Create a new country for the Kurds. Problem solved.
Wonderful, you are full of great ideas today!
1
Excellent article! But why call this a "hidden" war ? The unfathomable violence inflicted on the Kurdish populations by Turkey has only been "hidden" for those who deliberately averted their eyes.
There are countless reports year after year, decade after decade, from the most reputable human rights organizations, documenting how Turkey uses weapons of war, including F-16 jets, against Kurdish populations. If there ever were an example of large-scale state-sponsored domestic terrorism, this is it.
The Kurds are the West's most sincere and culturally closest allies in the region. They deserve our absolute support, not our silence in the face of the senseless violence inflicted upon them by Turkey.
There are countless reports year after year, decade after decade, from the most reputable human rights organizations, documenting how Turkey uses weapons of war, including F-16 jets, against Kurdish populations. If there ever were an example of large-scale state-sponsored domestic terrorism, this is it.
The Kurds are the West's most sincere and culturally closest allies in the region. They deserve our absolute support, not our silence in the face of the senseless violence inflicted upon them by Turkey.
23
Culturally closest? Are you sure?
3
"The Kurds are the West's most sincere and culturally closest allies in the region. ..." You are really carried away. Just like the next guy in the Middle East they are after the US buck - they, too, know a lot money change hands in such foggy days.
1
"It has been a Kurdish town since a century ago, when Christian residents fled southward from Turkish pogroms that started during the upheavals of World War I. "
You mean the Armenians who were marched to their deaths during the Armenian Genocide?
You mean the Armenians who were marched to their deaths during the Armenian Genocide?
8
"You mean the Armenians who were marched to their deaths during the Armenian Genocide?"
This was a counter-insurgency, not a genocide. You need to read more books by shaw, McCarthy, professors at the University of Utah and Georgetown's Turkish studies program. Plus the books of Bernard Lewis (leading Jewish intellectual). They have disproven this allegation.
This was a counter-insurgency, not a genocide. You need to read more books by shaw, McCarthy, professors at the University of Utah and Georgetown's Turkish studies program. Plus the books of Bernard Lewis (leading Jewish intellectual). They have disproven this allegation.
3
Obviously and the karmic irony is that most of those atrocities were committed by Kurdish militia, since the Ottoman government wanted to cover up connection to the crimes.
5
Even the Kurds acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. The only group that does not are the Turks.
5
It is so hard to understand how US considers "allies" to Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
Turkey has commited in history four documented genocides: Armenian, Assyrian, Dersum and Greek genocides, and now they are commiting genocide against Kurds. Why US insist in having the criminal regime of Erdogan as "friend". This is awful!
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history)
The same case is Saudi Arabia, this country is repressive and one of the main violators of Human Rights in the World, this is a FACT.
And also there is very strong evidence against Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Turkey buys stolen oil in Syria from ISIS. Saudi Arabia and Qatar are arming and sponsoring ISIS. There are a lot of suspicion on the role of Saudi Arabia in the attacks of World Trade Center of september 11th of 2001.
These are the "allies" of US.
Turkey has commited in history four documented genocides: Armenian, Assyrian, Dersum and Greek genocides, and now they are commiting genocide against Kurds. Why US insist in having the criminal regime of Erdogan as "friend". This is awful!
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history)
The same case is Saudi Arabia, this country is repressive and one of the main violators of Human Rights in the World, this is a FACT.
And also there is very strong evidence against Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Turkey buys stolen oil in Syria from ISIS. Saudi Arabia and Qatar are arming and sponsoring ISIS. There are a lot of suspicion on the role of Saudi Arabia in the attacks of World Trade Center of september 11th of 2001.
These are the "allies" of US.
59
Assyrian genocide?! Really now, the Turkish Republic was founded in 1923. What you mention was back in 25th century BC to 6th century BC. Your hate of Turks is evident from your stretching of facts and events.
4
"Turkey buys stolen oil in Syria from ISIS"
no, it does not. Next thing you will say is the repeated lie that Turkey supported ISIS. It did not. If anything, the West should be condemned for not supporting the Turkomen's goal of a free state (or possible unity with turkey - after all they are Turks)!
no, it does not. Next thing you will say is the repeated lie that Turkey supported ISIS. It did not. If anything, the West should be condemned for not supporting the Turkomen's goal of a free state (or possible unity with turkey - after all they are Turks)!
1
The truth is very uncomfortable for a lot of people, including Turks or foreign people living in Turkey. But the truth cannot be changed. That´s why I include the link, it is History.
1
Europe has properly bribed Turkey to handle the refugee crisis. I believe it is in our best interest to bribe Turkey to address the Kurdish situation. We should give Turkey $300 billion. It will be money well spent. That money will allow Turkey to fix itself up before it joins the European Union--where it rightly belongs.
1
Turkey is NEVER going to join the EU. The last thing Europeans need is another 80 million muslims roaming their cities.
As for the "We should give Turkey $300 Billion", you must be kidding. Our country's infrastructure is crumbling, our kids are uneducated, we have no universal healthcare, what we should do instead is cut ALL FOREIGN AID, not give a dime to Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt or anyone else. If Europe doesn't want refugees, they should station warships in the Aegean and direct all refugee boats back to Turkey.
As for the "We should give Turkey $300 Billion", you must be kidding. Our country's infrastructure is crumbling, our kids are uneducated, we have no universal healthcare, what we should do instead is cut ALL FOREIGN AID, not give a dime to Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt or anyone else. If Europe doesn't want refugees, they should station warships in the Aegean and direct all refugee boats back to Turkey.
10
Well, I can see many haters here. You can blame Erdogan for his politics, half of my country do the same thing. It's OK. You may not support a politician but you have respect the people who voted for him. I do respect my people even I don't share the same ideology with them. But there is a thing in Turkey that everybody support. Our independence. We inherited a massive empire and we fought for our freedom almost 100 years ago. We could take our lands back form Europeans. Like rest of our history which is way older than any western nation, we always fight. For our dreams or our independence. My point is, there will not be a Kurdish country which born into our lands. This just a dream for them and for you. Believe or not but we are not like Iraqis or Syrians. We would never leave our lands and ask help from other nations. My point is simple, if you want to see a Kurdish Autonomy or free Kurdistan or what ever you want to call it in Turkey, you will have to kill us all one by one. Cause any Turk in the Earth will never let this happen. We grown up with our freedoms anthem, we all took the oath that we will protect our lands with our lives every single day. I can ensure you, we may not be so smart or developed country but when its come to honesty and war, there is nothing in this world that can match with Turks. ( I may look like a racist but I'm not, I'm just a nationalist who's supporting liberals and I'm sorry if I offend any one)
11
Can, thank you, well put. Like you mentioned, outsiders mistake Turkey for Syria or Iraq. Turkey has an incredibly powerful military, not to be messed with. And after the military, there are the people of Turkey, who will rise up to the challenge, easily. An independent Kurdistan is a dream.
3
Educate us, Can- why is an independent Kurdistan something no Turk can abide?
1
Joe Biden had it right years ago; Iraq should be divided into areas for the Kurds, the Sunni's, and the Shia.
As an aside, when Hillary finally gets indicted this summer, I see the Dems turning to Joe Biden, not Bernie Sanders.
As an aside, when Hillary finally gets indicted this summer, I see the Dems turning to Joe Biden, not Bernie Sanders.
2
Great piece if you also like "All Quite on the Western Front". Apparent aim is romanticising the resistance movement.
Many of written in this article are correct though, except the part "Erdogan breezily predicted an ISIS victory in Kobani and refused to allow Turkish Kurds to cross to the rescue. There were protests across the southeast, and young P.K.K. members began building barricades; the police responded with force, shooting and killing dozens of protesters.", which refer to 6-8 October uprisings, where PKK aimed to take an indisputable control in the region and supress other Kurdish political establishments.
During these days, they terrorised all other political movements, killed many innocent youngster with ISIS style horrifying methods.
This was basically the first shot of taking over the governance and also end of the peace process.
That's why probably the writer passed the story very blurry.
Many of written in this article are correct though, except the part "Erdogan breezily predicted an ISIS victory in Kobani and refused to allow Turkish Kurds to cross to the rescue. There were protests across the southeast, and young P.K.K. members began building barricades; the police responded with force, shooting and killing dozens of protesters.", which refer to 6-8 October uprisings, where PKK aimed to take an indisputable control in the region and supress other Kurdish political establishments.
During these days, they terrorised all other political movements, killed many innocent youngster with ISIS style horrifying methods.
This was basically the first shot of taking over the governance and also end of the peace process.
That's why probably the writer passed the story very blurry.
5
It is time for the Turks to acknowledge the writing on the wall, and the U.S. and Europe should stop ignoring it, too. Contiguous chunks of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and Iran comprise what should be Kurdistan. The Kurds are already officially autonomous in Iraq and essentially so in Syria, a failed state. Iran's role is comparatively small, and Turkey should be forced (through heavy diplomatic pressure) to cede territory and accept a new neighbor and new borders, after which the U.S. could take responsibility and apply its powerful influence to maintain peace and ensure that the Kurds don't try to expand those borders. This is one positive that could come from all this mess in the Middle East...until the next time.
30
Did you ask yourself how Syria become a failed state? The western powers backed terrorist organizations like ISIS and AQ to wage war against a sovereign state. But guess what? Assad is still in power after 5 years of war.
todd, I have to disagree with you on that one. Syria entered a civil war not because of western intervention but because its people wanted to overthrow the Assad regime (i.e., extension of Arab spring). If there were no similar "revolutions" in arab countries, Assad would still be in good shape in his country. And there would not have been a civil war.
but I do see your point that the West, unlike Turkey, backing ISIS and similar groups in Syria. Simultaneously they claim that Turkey supported ISIS ( a lie). They are also opposed to the Turkomen's right to become a separate nation.
but I do see your point that the West, unlike Turkey, backing ISIS and similar groups in Syria. Simultaneously they claim that Turkey supported ISIS ( a lie). They are also opposed to the Turkomen's right to become a separate nation.
Where do you live in? in a dream land! mr. davutoğlu, former turkish prime minister, once said, during a public meeting, in the beginning of syrian conflict that we pray our next friday pray in domescus!
Turkish authorities supported (maybe still as well) illegally ISIS and prisoned many reporters who unreveal and documented tons of armory vehicles; one of well known reporter is can dundar. Turkish state along with State still provides lojistic support al nusra, which is sect of AQ. It is also believed by many citizens Tayyip Erdoğan used ISIS to bomb public gatherings of HDP in three occasions during general election campaings causing hundreds of people died while trying to raise their voices for peace...
Turkish authorities supported (maybe still as well) illegally ISIS and prisoned many reporters who unreveal and documented tons of armory vehicles; one of well known reporter is can dundar. Turkish state along with State still provides lojistic support al nusra, which is sect of AQ. It is also believed by many citizens Tayyip Erdoğan used ISIS to bomb public gatherings of HDP in three occasions during general election campaings causing hundreds of people died while trying to raise their voices for peace...
2
Turkey is an extraordinary project in an extraordinary geopolitical location. It is a bridge - literally. Those who are chanting for US to abandon Turkey as an ally or advocating Turkey's exit from NATO are clearly not informed about the history of this region and do not understand/appreciate the real value of Turkey's tilt towards the West. Despite the current goverment's effort to change that tilt towards the East, Turkey is still the only successful example of a Muslim population adopting a secular democracy and a Western lifestyle in general. It is clearly not a perfect democracy. There have been and still are significant free speech and human rights issues that have to be corrected.
Back to the article: it is yet another example of the romantic Western notion of oprressed minorities rising against "the State". It is an appealing story. Yet, the article conveniently omits some of the uglier means & methods used by the PKK and related groups, including recent suicide bombings that have killed civilians. It is so easy for us to view this as a black & white situation, but in reality, it is completely in the gray world. Do the ends justify the means? How is a PKK-sponsored suicide bombing killing 30 different from an ISIS-sponsored suicide bombing killing 30? They have both taken place in Turkey - multiple times during the past year. The reality is that neither Europe nor the US can afford Turkey being embroiled in civil war or the ongoing conflict in Syria and Iraq.
Back to the article: it is yet another example of the romantic Western notion of oprressed minorities rising against "the State". It is an appealing story. Yet, the article conveniently omits some of the uglier means & methods used by the PKK and related groups, including recent suicide bombings that have killed civilians. It is so easy for us to view this as a black & white situation, but in reality, it is completely in the gray world. Do the ends justify the means? How is a PKK-sponsored suicide bombing killing 30 different from an ISIS-sponsored suicide bombing killing 30? They have both taken place in Turkey - multiple times during the past year. The reality is that neither Europe nor the US can afford Turkey being embroiled in civil war or the ongoing conflict in Syria and Iraq.
28
It is an article driven to justify support of the US of a terrorist organization, PKK and YPG. The article entirely omits the terror inflicted on the civilians by the Kurds.
3
How do you know these bombings were not manufactured by Erdogan as way to leverage his fight against the Kurds.
You've nailed it, jt, from first line to last. Turkey cannot and must not be ignored. Diplomacy among nations is desperately needed.
2
It is a real tragedy how Turkey has treated the Kurds. Actually, the Kurds are the SECOND JEW of the Muslim Arab world. The world kept quiet when Hitler annihilated Jews and it is keeping quiet now when the Kurds are bieng annihilated. Kurds are the better, more enlightened, progressive and tolerant people among these Arabs and the Arabs can not handle. The world MUST speak up strongly against the murder of Kurds and protect them no matteat the cost.
21
You say: "Among these Arabs?" Do you realize how racist that sounds? And Turks (or Iranians, for that matter) are not Arab!
6
It's more like the Kurds are the Palestinians, not the Jews of the muslim world.
This article portrays the Kurds the heroic fighters rebelling against an oppressive regime, even though Kurds in Turkey are full citizens with full civil and political rights, unlike the Palestinians who are portrayed as terrorists for fighting a much more oppressive regime that has taken away ALL their rights, and often their lives.
This article portrays the Kurds the heroic fighters rebelling against an oppressive regime, even though Kurds in Turkey are full citizens with full civil and political rights, unlike the Palestinians who are portrayed as terrorists for fighting a much more oppressive regime that has taken away ALL their rights, and often their lives.
3
Why is that racist?
As you were reading this article, PKK terrorists killed 6 Turkish soldiers in the province of Van using a roadside IED (late Tuesday May 24). Articles like this that glorify terrorist organizations do not help.
15
I completely agree but Americans love reading these articles and they start lecturing people about history and how NATO should do this and that. They have all the answers to every problem in the world.
7
Ugur, they also claim to have real universities that teach the "truth". Yet their universities, with the noteable exception of the University of Utah's and Georgetown's Turkish studies departments and their esteemed professors such as Shaw and McCarthy (you should read a few books of theirs), teach nothing but distorted truths. More westerners need to study at Turkish universities to learn the truth. TUrkey must correct this pro-PKK propaganda (running amuck in the West) by offering scholarships.
1
I find it unfathomable that Turkey can be considered for EU membership: here is a country which is in a perpetual state of civil war, and as this article points out, a porous, if not outright open border. Furthermore, the Turkish-Kurdish fighting has now been imported to every European country where Turks and Kurds have immigrated. 1000s of riot police officers are required to separate the two groups whenever one of them celebrates their native natural holidays. Without fail, they still break loose and violence erupts in every major German city that makes mafia and gangster violence seem like child's play. Fortunately it seems that the EU is coming to its senses and will not grant visa-free travel to Turkey.
46
Germany has the best track record on human rights.
4
Appalling that a German even dares to comment on human rights. Germany's record on war crimes is unmatchable. Sad that even today they have pretty racist policies for non Germans - including forcing migrants to learn and speak German to become a citizen. This was in law until very recently. Now imagine a poor Kurdish national moving to Germany and living there for sometime. Germany will deny education in Kurdish. It will also deny citizenship because of the inability to speak German. Now how is this any better than Turkey's policies?
1
desabata, you reflect your nation's racism well. You strike me as the same type of racist who gloats at the victory of the Christians against the Turks at Vienna. Thanks to the Ottoman defeat turkey was unable to spread its culture and political domination over the rest of Europe which would have prevented both Western imperialism and Europe's genocidal wars. Plus it would have allowed the various Christian millets to prosper, as they did under Turkish guidance, tolerance and tutelage in the Christian nations of the Balkans.
Western history has instead painted the period of Turkish rule in the Balkans as intolerant and imperialist, when nothing was further from the truth. A perfect example of the Christian world's racism and intolerance for both Turkey and Islam.
Western history has instead painted the period of Turkish rule in the Balkans as intolerant and imperialist, when nothing was further from the truth. A perfect example of the Christian world's racism and intolerance for both Turkey and Islam.
2
I think Turkey should face a NATO review of its membership with an eye toward kicking them out.
Erdogan is not a legitimate politician he is a narcissistic hyper religious autocrat who is seeking to create a lifetime position for himself and probably more while hiding behind a false front of "democracy".
There are still many questions to be answered about how he got those 40 Turks back from Daesh including why he did not act quickly when they took Kobani and has not taken effective action against foreign fighters using Turkey to get into Syria to join Daesh. Turkey is not a typical "ineffectual government" nation. It has effective agencies in the government who could handle this if the leadership wanted to.
The attacks on the PKK are like W's attacking Iraq, a diversion from the real issues so that everyone looks at it and complains of this not being necessary while the real crime is being committed elsewhere. In this case he is consolidating power and destroying the institutions of democracy under the guise of the invented danger from PKK terrorists.
W used it to funnel trillions of dollars to his masters, including Cheney's company all while pretending we "we" were in danger.
Erdogan is not a legitimate politician he is a narcissistic hyper religious autocrat who is seeking to create a lifetime position for himself and probably more while hiding behind a false front of "democracy".
There are still many questions to be answered about how he got those 40 Turks back from Daesh including why he did not act quickly when they took Kobani and has not taken effective action against foreign fighters using Turkey to get into Syria to join Daesh. Turkey is not a typical "ineffectual government" nation. It has effective agencies in the government who could handle this if the leadership wanted to.
The attacks on the PKK are like W's attacking Iraq, a diversion from the real issues so that everyone looks at it and complains of this not being necessary while the real crime is being committed elsewhere. In this case he is consolidating power and destroying the institutions of democracy under the guise of the invented danger from PKK terrorists.
W used it to funnel trillions of dollars to his masters, including Cheney's company all while pretending we "we" were in danger.
57
Be careful, Turkey may first "kick out" the U.S. (wait, I meant to say NATO) airbase at Incirlik!
4
With modern technology it isn't a must have and if the US leaves NATO then their is no advantage to having access to Turkey's airbase. If things ever get so bad that we think we might need it then we will just take it. At that point the US will show up with all its modern toys.
1
kansashowdy: "we will just take it" - you mean like how you just "took" Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Vietnam?! Those are all wars lost by the U.S.
2
Great story. I can't help but wonder about all the people that benefit from the ongoing conflict in the area. Erdogan certainly has his ego and his quest for power. The article did a good job of highlighting the less than perfect intentions of the PKK militants too. I wonder about all these arms sales the US makes to so-called "allies" which end up being distributed anywhere and everywhere. A naïve person might themselves assume this was naivete on the part of the USA leadership but there are too many powerful interests (namely the weapons manufacturers) who profit from this arrangement. Europe cares only about its own migrant "problem". And the world keeps on fighting.
11
If there weren't any wars then weapons manufactures couldn't make money. Trump is right, it is time to dissolve NATO and bring all of our troops home. There is nothing to be gained by all these manufactured wars.
I lived in TR for almost ten years, and quite recently. I marvel -- and tremble -- at the increasingly complicated nation that is Turkey. While I love the "white Turk" friends that I have, I have witnessed plenty of casual and appalling prejudice against Kurdish people, who tend to be very reserved about their ethnic identity and for good reason. Although I reject the PKK's terrorism, as a contemporary U.S. citizen, my heart and sympathies lie with the Kurds, who struggle so valiantly for a place in the country that has simultaneously claimed their land and rejected them.
I fear for my dear friends, Kurds and Turks alike, and I fear most deeply for Turkey. Erdogan is a corrupt official who will not likely relinquish power without burning the country to the ground. How I wish Turkey had a leader who would hold the line against the tide threatening the Middle East, instead of manipulating all players equally in the interests of his backward agenda. I am sadly certain that the diverse, warm and wonderful citizenry of Turkey will be the casualty of an even greater impending conflict.
I fear for my dear friends, Kurds and Turks alike, and I fear most deeply for Turkey. Erdogan is a corrupt official who will not likely relinquish power without burning the country to the ground. How I wish Turkey had a leader who would hold the line against the tide threatening the Middle East, instead of manipulating all players equally in the interests of his backward agenda. I am sadly certain that the diverse, warm and wonderful citizenry of Turkey will be the casualty of an even greater impending conflict.
82
All valid points.
I wonder why the author never bothered to talk to main opposition party (CHP, Republican Peoples Party) and get their view. CHP is the party of the founding father Ataturk.
Turkey has become an increasingly authoritarian state under Islamists (Erdogan/AKP) over the last 14+years, and the US/the EU still in bed with this tyrant regardless of what the government/administration officials say. An uber corrupt tyrant like Erdogan would be removed from his post easily should the US wish to open Erdogan's vast corruption dossier that runs through many channels.
For some reasons, the US lets him stay in power!?..
I wonder why the author never bothered to talk to main opposition party (CHP, Republican Peoples Party) and get their view. CHP is the party of the founding father Ataturk.
Turkey has become an increasingly authoritarian state under Islamists (Erdogan/AKP) over the last 14+years, and the US/the EU still in bed with this tyrant regardless of what the government/administration officials say. An uber corrupt tyrant like Erdogan would be removed from his post easily should the US wish to open Erdogan's vast corruption dossier that runs through many channels.
For some reasons, the US lets him stay in power!?..
1
Thank you, Dan.
Re: the CHP, I had the sense that it was increasingly toothless during the years that I was there, and even its predictable adherents were losing faith. Hence the growing interest in the HDP. I might be wrong, but that is my impression.
I rather think that the U.S. and the E.U. don't have any other choice than to deal with Erdogan. He is, after all, the leader of the Turkish Republic. I see some degree of "getting in bed" as necessary, no matter how distasteful it may be.
As for the U.S. "letting" Erdogan stay in power, I don't even know what to say to that. What should be done -- is removing him somehow justifiable? I don't think so. Diplomacy is hard work and takes time. It's less a valued skill than ever, I think.
Re: the CHP, I had the sense that it was increasingly toothless during the years that I was there, and even its predictable adherents were losing faith. Hence the growing interest in the HDP. I might be wrong, but that is my impression.
I rather think that the U.S. and the E.U. don't have any other choice than to deal with Erdogan. He is, after all, the leader of the Turkish Republic. I see some degree of "getting in bed" as necessary, no matter how distasteful it may be.
As for the U.S. "letting" Erdogan stay in power, I don't even know what to say to that. What should be done -- is removing him somehow justifiable? I don't think so. Diplomacy is hard work and takes time. It's less a valued skill than ever, I think.
1
In 2011, I was in Istanbul to visit family after a long absence. I took the opportunity to strike up conversations with all whom I encountered to better understand the changes that had occurred in my country of origin. Erdogan had been in power for nine years at that point. The cab driver taking me to the airport on my departure day spoke of all the positive improvements that Erdogan had brought to Turkey, but (and it was a big BUT) he said "We are all holding our breath because it is not clear yet if we can trust him." Since then, Erdogan has revealed himself to be a cruel, immature, self-serving Jekyll and Hyde. He would sacrifice the stability and well-being of his country and people to maintain his status as neo-sultan. Turkey is a victim of yet another terrible leader among many terrible world leaders. The Kurds are a wonderful people. There is no good reason to be at war with them.
25
The Kurds are not a separate people. As Attaturk pointed out, they are "mountain turks". Why do you refuse to see them as such?
Mabb, I like your story, and I have a similar one concerning a cab driver. I loved the enthusiasm of Turkish cabbies for talking politics with yabancis (foreigners), and the working class was a huge base for Erdogan's early years. For my part, I always tried to remain as neutral as possible. I did notice the tide turning away from Erdogan among the working class when one cab driver told me "He got caught once with his hand in the cookie jar. Okay, that's a politician. He got caught twice with his hand in the jar. We'll try to overlook it. But three times?! It's too much!"
I've changed the metaphor, but you know what I mean....
I've changed the metaphor, but you know what I mean....
2
Racist Turks will be racist Turks. If you're going to mention Ataturk, at least spell his name correctly.
1
This is unfortunately a two-sided war. The attacks by the Turkish Gov were brutal but the Kurds who support and build a terrorist organization are also to blame. NYT has managed to skip many details - like most of the 66 people who were killed by the PKK suicide bombing in Ankara were high school and college students. And military service in Turkey is mandatory, that means every soldier killed in a PKK attack is someone's 18 year old son. PKK has been executing other attacks on civilians too, killing parents next to their children. And a good majority of the Kurds actually voted for years (and did so in the last election) for Erdogan. And many people who voted for HDP - the Kurdish party- were Turkish, because they wanted to resolve the issues of the Kurds in the parliament.
11
Who in their right mind would want Turkey in the E.U.
One of the most undemocratic countries in the world.
Besides that, considering their position on this planet
of ours, I would have considered them a middle eastern
country.
I did though find the article very moving and sad.
Will people never learn. Obviously NOT!
One of the most undemocratic countries in the world.
Besides that, considering their position on this planet
of ours, I would have considered them a middle eastern
country.
I did though find the article very moving and sad.
Will people never learn. Obviously NOT!
6
Attaturk and successive governments since his have every right to be sure they do not get their "own" nation. The Kurds, as Attaturk pointed out, are "mountain turks" speaking a dialect of Turkish. If you had attended a school in Turkey, instead of the West, you would know this. IN the West nothing more than lies are taught. For example, the ethnic cleansing of turks in Bulgaria and Greece is barely mentioned as is the tolerance shown to Bulgarians and greeks living in Turkey. WHy else would so many Bulgarians and greeks be living in Turkey than Turks in Bulgaria and Greece?
yoda, you are a product of Turkish schools and their revisionist history.
"WHy else would so many Bulgarians and greeks be living in Turkey than Turks in Bulgaria and Greece?"
Could it be because Turkey is sitting on Greek and Armenian lands perhaps? I sure hope, your Turkish schools mentioned how Turks came from Central Asia to the area, conquering the land at the point of a sword and raping and killing its inhabitants.
"WHy else would so many Bulgarians and greeks be living in Turkey than Turks in Bulgaria and Greece?"
Could it be because Turkey is sitting on Greek and Armenian lands perhaps? I sure hope, your Turkish schools mentioned how Turks came from Central Asia to the area, conquering the land at the point of a sword and raping and killing its inhabitants.
9
Westsider,
With the same analogy, the US is sitting in the land of Native Americans!? And true for many other nations in today's world. Turks ruled the land (Greece for instance) for over 300 years. If they wanted to wiped them off, believe me, they would have easily.
The Ottoman Empire could be many things, but not genocidal, just look at Jerusalem and the entire North Africa/Middle East under the Ottomans and afterwards upon carved by British-French. I'd suggest reading some history books starting with Bernard Lewis would help.
With the same analogy, the US is sitting in the land of Native Americans!? And true for many other nations in today's world. Turks ruled the land (Greece for instance) for over 300 years. If they wanted to wiped them off, believe me, they would have easily.
The Ottoman Empire could be many things, but not genocidal, just look at Jerusalem and the entire North Africa/Middle East under the Ottomans and afterwards upon carved by British-French. I'd suggest reading some history books starting with Bernard Lewis would help.
1
It is claimed that there are 10-15 million Kurds living in Turkey. More Kurds are living all over Turkey- East, West, South, North and Central Anatolia-than in the East. Their population is three times more numerous than that is of Iraqi and and Iranian Kurds put together. In Turkey they are in Adana, Ankara, Istanbul, Izmir, etc.-large industrial cities as well as in rural communities. There is also an assimilated large middle-class professional Kurds who have been living everywhere in Turkey. They are well integrated and no one is bothering them outside Eastern Turkey. Few Kurds have gone over to join and live in Northern Iraq. Northern Iraqi Kurds-as it happens in all families- are not interested in sharing their new found oil wealth with their brethren across the border. Iran has been within its current borders for at least approximately two thousand years and is a reasonably well adjusted multi-cultural society with Kurds, Azeris, Baluchis and Turkmens. In fact Iranian Azeri population is larger than the Azeri population in Azerbaijan. Turkey's development only took of in 1990s. Until then Turkey was the poorest member of OECD. To make long story short, why is it that Turkish Kurds try to get away from the current unfortunate- and uncalled for- strife in Eastern Turkey all run away from the strife areas to different parts of Turkey and not to Iran or Iraq?
4
LCG, your words are proof that the Kurds consider themselves Turkish (as Attaturk saw them, hence his calling them "mountain turks"). Yet western racism prevents the teaching of this fact and revisionist theories full of lies and bent on making Turkey look bad. Shame on the West!!!
1
LCG, this comment is made purely on anecdotal observation and experience, but the Turks who are established all over the major Turkish cities that you mention have been migrating there for some time before this Syrian conflict exploded, and they migrated for economic opportunity. My understanding is that much of the frustration the Kurds have had is that the government has not invested in the east during these recent economic boom years, and that national development has not been evenly applied.
I wonder if I knew any middle-class Kurds while I lived in Turkey. If I did, they never self-identified. It was almost impossible to get anyone I knew to admit to Kurdish heritage until the Gezi movement, though I won't speculate on the correlation. Most Kurds I knew were working-class drivers, servers, and worker-bees in kitchens and construction. They made every effort to blend in and not talk politics. I did not take this to mean that they were comfortably integrated.
As far as no one bothering them outside of eastern Turkey, that's not my experience. I had many well-to-do educated Turkish friends and acquaintances casually blame Kurds for... well, a variety of social failings. Obviously not all Turks think this way, but I heard enough casual prejudice to make me really uncomfortable.
I wonder if I knew any middle-class Kurds while I lived in Turkey. If I did, they never self-identified. It was almost impossible to get anyone I knew to admit to Kurdish heritage until the Gezi movement, though I won't speculate on the correlation. Most Kurds I knew were working-class drivers, servers, and worker-bees in kitchens and construction. They made every effort to blend in and not talk politics. I did not take this to mean that they were comfortably integrated.
As far as no one bothering them outside of eastern Turkey, that's not my experience. I had many well-to-do educated Turkish friends and acquaintances casually blame Kurds for... well, a variety of social failings. Obviously not all Turks think this way, but I heard enough casual prejudice to make me really uncomfortable.
4
J,
why would they hide their feeling and be afraid to speak? They have never been persecuted and have no fear. Are you an propagandist?
why would they hide their feeling and be afraid to speak? They have never been persecuted and have no fear. Are you an propagandist?
Erdogan's Turkey is no ally of the United States. We cannot support such a totalitarian leader, especially with his aiding ISIS. It is time we allied ourself with those who promote freedom.
Thirty million Kurds deserve a nation. If not that, they at least deserve autonomy.
The taking in of Muslim refugees by a Muslim state does not make them our friend.
Thirty million Kurds deserve a nation. If not that, they at least deserve autonomy.
The taking in of Muslim refugees by a Muslim state does not make them our friend.
39
Kegel, if they deserve a nation, would you like to put them up in the U.S.? Say North Carolina? Oh wait, NC Governor McCrory won't even take in a few hundred Syrian refugees, let alone 30 million Kurds.
2
But we do and have supported totalitarian leaders when it served our national interests... and if we don't want to do that with TR, neither can we utterly abandon a relationship with that country. The U.S. (and all other vested nations) will need a leader who can carefully negotiate the diplomacy required for helping to maintain what peace is possible in Turkey and in the region. That involves compromise, and it isn't always ethical or ideal.
I have hope for the Kurdish people, but whatever gains they make are best made not by terrorism or force, but by constant and careful negotiation over time. I hope that this is possible. Frankly, I dread and pretty well believe that the U.S. will use the Kurds as far as they can, and then throw them under the bus. I really hope that doesn't happen, but I think that it could.
I have hope for the Kurdish people, but whatever gains they make are best made not by terrorism or force, but by constant and careful negotiation over time. I hope that this is possible. Frankly, I dread and pretty well believe that the U.S. will use the Kurds as far as they can, and then throw them under the bus. I really hope that doesn't happen, but I think that it could.
3
@J. Excellent observation/commentary all around - thanks.
2
This article, unfortunately, is promotional material for PKK.
Why is the Turkish NYT reporter Ceylan Yeginsu not mentioned in the contributors list at the end of the article? Why was she not consulted?
Why is the Turkish NYT reporter Ceylan Yeginsu not mentioned in the contributors list at the end of the article? Why was she not consulted?
7
I agree. The fact that Turkey, even under Attaturk (so much so that he called the Kurds "mountain turks"), was tolerant towards the Kurds is not even mentioned. Do the authors not know that the Kurdish language and culture was even supported by the Turkish Republic and Attaturk? Why the whitewashing of history? why the revisionism?
Articles like this are the same as those written who claim that there was a "genocide" of Armenians in Turkey. Any graduate of a Turkish secondary school would be able to point out the lie this was (it was a counter insurgency campaign against Armenian terrorists).
More Americans (and westerners in general) need to attend Turkish universities to find the truth instead of being brainwashed by special interest groups who seek to revise Turkey's history.
Articles like this are the same as those written who claim that there was a "genocide" of Armenians in Turkey. Any graduate of a Turkish secondary school would be able to point out the lie this was (it was a counter insurgency campaign against Armenian terrorists).
More Americans (and westerners in general) need to attend Turkish universities to find the truth instead of being brainwashed by special interest groups who seek to revise Turkey's history.
5
Not only there was a GENOCIDE of Armenians in Turkey, but much of it was carried out by the Kurds on order of so-called 'Young Turks' from Salonica, who put one of their own, Ataturk, in charge when it was all done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Union_and_Progress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Union_and_Progress
2
"Any graduate of a Turkish secondary school..." and there you have it.
The irony here is that you are as vehemently invested in your own perspective as all those you accuse of being propagandists and special interest groups. You are the other side of the coin.
What in the world is "truth" when we speak of history? I've sat through many a national holiday at secondary schools in TR, and I've been very interested to see how Turkey's political losses and gains in the twentieth century were presented to students (being, effectively, an historical representative of the opposite side sitting there in the audience). My students were aghast and appalled that I did not know who Ataturk was until a few months before my move to TR. They had a naive faith that the whole world saw their revered founder as they did, and they were eager to school me in the knowledge of Ataturk's heroism and achievements. I appreciated their efforts, but I recognized that their perspective was formed in one way, and mine in a radically different way. Your protests and assertions remind me a bit of those students. Where does one find the "truth"?
The irony here is that you are as vehemently invested in your own perspective as all those you accuse of being propagandists and special interest groups. You are the other side of the coin.
What in the world is "truth" when we speak of history? I've sat through many a national holiday at secondary schools in TR, and I've been very interested to see how Turkey's political losses and gains in the twentieth century were presented to students (being, effectively, an historical representative of the opposite side sitting there in the audience). My students were aghast and appalled that I did not know who Ataturk was until a few months before my move to TR. They had a naive faith that the whole world saw their revered founder as they did, and they were eager to school me in the knowledge of Ataturk's heroism and achievements. I appreciated their efforts, but I recognized that their perspective was formed in one way, and mine in a radically different way. Your protests and assertions remind me a bit of those students. Where does one find the "truth"?
3
It's patently obvious that the Kurds deserve a state of their own and would be an osasis of stability and moderation in the region. The Turkish government, particulary Erdogan, has engaged in a brutal, genocidal war against the Kurds to oppress the Kurds and reap the rewards of Turkish nationalism.
Erdogan is a lesser Putin.
Erdogan is a lesser Putin.
35
You assume they would be stable. they have known only war for many decades so they aren't engaged in civil society in a long time. There is no telling what might come up from hyper religiosity encouraged by our ever traitorous GOP to exuberant foolish adventures.
"It's patently obvious that the Kurds deserve a state of their own and would be an osasis of stability and moderation in the region"
no, they do not. As Ataturk pointed out, the Kurds are "mountain turks". their language is a Turkish dialect (Ataturk pointed this out too). Their culture, language have been protected since Ataturk in Turkey. In addition, they have been allowed to even teach Kurdish.
You need to read a few books by professors at the University of Utah's and Georgetown's Turkish studies program such as Shaw, McCarthy and Bernard Lewis (a leading Jewish intellectual) to realize the errors of your comments.
no, they do not. As Ataturk pointed out, the Kurds are "mountain turks". their language is a Turkish dialect (Ataturk pointed this out too). Their culture, language have been protected since Ataturk in Turkey. In addition, they have been allowed to even teach Kurdish.
You need to read a few books by professors at the University of Utah's and Georgetown's Turkish studies program such as Shaw, McCarthy and Bernard Lewis (a leading Jewish intellectual) to realize the errors of your comments.
Patently obvious from this article, or do you know the history from both sides? What makes you think it would be any kind of oasis? Do you think good intentions are all it takes to create stability in such a volatile region?
1
If Sultan Erdogan gets what he deserves it works for me. He's no "ally.'
12
Why is aerial bombardment of civilian areas still not a war crime? Why are states using overwhelming force (Turkey, US,Israel, Russia) not terrorists?
11
Terrorists don't have the means to use overwhelming force.
Interesting article. The Kurds are suffering from being stateless. Erdogan certainly has made things difficult for everyone. His ambitions to be another middle eastern strongman are making him into a violent obstacle to any solution. Assad certainly started the war in Syria but Erdogan upped the stakes and helped ISIS get a foothold. The Kurds in Syria are the only players that the US can use as ground troops. After Paris and Brussels clearly ISIS is the number one Western target in Syria. The war has so many moving parts and ISIS benefits from this. Erdogan due to his position to shut off the refugee exodus cannot be stopped in his efforts to battle the Kurds. So the war ratchets up with little that can stop it.
14
There are millions of Kurdish citizens of Turkey. They are anything but stateless; they are citizens of T.C. (Republic of Turkey).
1
todd, it should also be mentioned that Turkey has long shown respect for their culture and language. Even Attaturk, as a sign of tolerance and respect, called them "mountain turks". Yet Western revisionists have turned these facts inside out. Shame on them!
@yoda: After any NYT article, you get commenters coming out of the woodwork with their claims about the so-called genocide. There were atrocities committed by both sides (Ottoman and Armenian) during WW I, but there was no genocide. And thanks for acknowledging Ataturk, founder of modern and secular Turkey.
It is shocking that such anti-Turkish propaganda would come from the NY TImes. Does the NY Times not know that Attaturk called the Kurds "Mountain Turks" (a sign of friendship)? Does it not know the tolerance it has shown for the Kurdish people during its Republic? This is very much unlike, say, Greek Cypriot torture and murder of Turks in Cyprus (which justified Turkish intervention to prevent their Genocide) or Armenian allegations that there was a so-called "Genocide" of them in Turkey (when the reality was it was the putting down of Armenian pogroms of Turks)?
The editors of the NY Times really need to go to Turkey to study history. At least there they would get an unbiased and truthful history as opposed to the anti-Turkish smears and lies that are so common in the West.
The editors of the NY Times really need to go to Turkey to study history. At least there they would get an unbiased and truthful history as opposed to the anti-Turkish smears and lies that are so common in the West.
3
We could go to Turkey to learn "Turkish History". However, unlike Turks, we Americans can go to Universities that teach the truth.
7
If Erdogan were anything like Ataturk there would be no problem. Turkey would now be, or soon become, a modern European state. But sadly he is not, and it will not be until after he is gone.
10
You have your history inside out.
10
Erdogan is the Donald Trump of Turkey, egotistical and interested only in extending his own power, regardless of the cost.
59
No he is the Dick Cheney of Turkey. A truly evil and malevolent man seeking only after his own interests without regard for anyone else.
6
Trump has said many times that we need to leave NATO and bring our troops home. I am all for it.
All one has to do is look at the recent history of Turkey to see that what is happening now to the Kurds has been done before, to another significant minority group, the Armenians of Turkey. From the late 19th century until 1923, the Ottoman government of Turkey sought to repress their move for more freedom and autonomy. The repression reached a frenzy during the 1890s, when 200,000 Armenians were killed in massacres across eastern Anatolia, and then climaxed in a genocidal campaign that eliminated at least 1.5 million of the 2.2 million Armenians of Anatolia, if not more. Sad to say, this scenario is playing out once again. In an ominous repeat of history, millions of innocent Kurds who are full Turkish citizens, are facing the prospect of unchecked state sponsored terrorism from their own government. Is it any surprise that they're opting for self-defense?
104
Karekin, in Turkey it is a proven fact that there was no genocide of the Armenians. What happened was due to that group's terrorism. You are a victim of Western propaganda. You need to study history in Turkey, not in the West (where it is biased and sensationalist).
1
yoda, I agree with you. There were atrocities during the Great War on *both* sides. More Turks died than Armenians. Who weeps for the Turks killed during that time? History is written and recorded by the powerful.
1
True, double dealing dictator Erdoghan is the re-incarnation of the Young Turks who conducted the first genocide in the 20th century by massacring and deporting a million and a half Armenians, who were full citizens of the Ottoman Empire. They used Kurds to complete their heinous tasks. Ataturk followed their steps by massacring and deporting Greeks and Assyrians from Western Turkey, then declared Turkey minority free.
Erdoghan is exhibiting the same spirit by massacring and deporting Turkey's the new 'minority', the Kurds.
It is a travesty of justice to call Turkey an ally of the US. Erdoghan will be the next tyrant to complete in Turkey and its neighbors, all that Bashar Al-Assad started in Syria.
Erdoghan is exhibiting the same spirit by massacring and deporting Turkey's the new 'minority', the Kurds.
It is a travesty of justice to call Turkey an ally of the US. Erdoghan will be the next tyrant to complete in Turkey and its neighbors, all that Bashar Al-Assad started in Syria.
2
Let's stop the charade of referring to Turkey as our ally. They are not and never have been. The Turkish government violates the human rights of its citizens, represses any form of dissent, and controls its nation's media with an iron fist. Turkey has long engaged in conduct designed to destablize the region. For years now, they have encouraged and facilitated illegal immigration into Europe through Greece. This was a purposeful attempt to further destablize any economicaly week Greece as well as a successful effort to extract monetary payments and visa waiver concessions from the EU. The US allowed Turkey to invade Cyprus in 1974 and it has done nothing to stop Turkish agression in the Aegean where it violates Greek airspace on a daily basis. I hope the Kurds and every other abused minority in Turkey gives that country th fight of their existence.
94
Agreed that the current government in Turkey is not an ally of U.S. interests. However, in the interests of peace and the well-being of all Turkish citizens and of the region, I would never encourage more conflict and fighting. Ideally, it's time for a new script. Avenging the past will create an endless cycle of violence. If only invested leaders of the region would commit to diplomacy... but that hope died a long time ago.
Tula, if only the Greeks did not launch pogroms of turks in Cyprus (and accepted Turkeys sovereignty to begin with) there never would have been a reason to partition the island to begin with. THey had it coming. The fact that the Greek Cypriots also refuse to share the wealth of the gas fields found South of Cyprus is also despicable. This is also the property of Turkish Cypriots. With any luck, Turkey will start to tap into these resources to insure that the Turkish Cypriots get their right ful share.
Although I am a Turkish citizen, I am writing this reply in defense of US behavior in this issue. 'Greek airspace' concept is not clear due to dispute in island airspaces issue in UN basically a resolution which might lead to Greek benefit is blocked by primarily UK. Secondly, there were blood baths performed by Greek rebels to Turkish civilians and even diplomats openly performed and broadcasted(in case you don't believe check Bloody Christmas as an example) over the years which gave little or no space to UN members to prevent a Turkish military operation, still US made significant diplomatic pressure to Turkey(Johnson letter, 1964). Yet the problem was following Turkish invasion without any internationally recognized referendum separated the island still not recognized anyway.
3
Heroic people like these Kurds strike fear into the heart of political users and hucksters like America's current president. They are actually fighting the people Obama seems to fear.
The one thing this sadly inept ''leader'' of ours will never do is admit that he rushed American troops out of Iraq far too soon simply for political reasons.
The one thing this sadly inept ''leader'' of ours will never do is admit that he rushed American troops out of Iraq far too soon simply for political reasons.
4
You might try checking up on the Status of Forces Agreement, negotiated by GW Bush and ratified by Congress which mandated our withdrawal from Iraq. Since you are apparently the subject matter expert (were you ever in Iraq, or the military?) perhaps you can also explain what we would have hoped to accomplish by staying, given that the Shia militia leaders stated they would resume attacking US forces if we did not withdraw as agreed.
3
If Kurds are so heroic, how come they have never had a land of their own? And why is it that they have always been ready to serve imperial interests throughout history?
3
the PKK is a cowardly terrorist organization, especially considering how tolerant the Turkish Republic has been of them (i.e., traditionally allowing them to use their language, keep their culture, teach their language and even broadcast in Kurdish (a Turkish dialect, as Ataturk pointed out)). Considering these facts what reason would the Kurds seek to succeed from Turkey?
And the US continues to support this so-called valuable ally as many decent Americans wonder why people around the world harbour so much hatred towards Americans. It really is time to kick Turkey out of NATO and recognise an independent Kurdistan. Kurds and Kurdistan ARE what Turks and Turkey used to be! Dependable allies on a strategically important piece of land very close to the cradle of so many prophets.
66
Unfortunately, those people might be asking why Americans support George W. Bush and Donald Trump than rather than US allies
2
All one has to do is look at history to see that this scenario has played out before in Turkey, with painful consequences. From the late 19th century until 1923, Turkey adopted a very similar approach towards another significant 'minority' group, the Armenians who also tried to resist decades of assault and insults by the Turkish government with a move for more autonomy. The result was a genocidal campaign that extinguished 1.5 million of the 2.2 million Armenians living in Anatolia. I fear that Turkey might be heading down the same genocidal road once again, and fear for the millions of innocent Kurds who have suffered thus far, and those who will have to endure a state sponsored terrorism that knows no bounds.
51