This is a heap of the same old ideas and cliches: Romanticism, which emerged as an overreaction to pragmatic marriage, is bad, there’s no one perfect, you shouldn’t discard the other person, you should marry someone who is “mature” and can negotiate disagreement, like a friend you’re sleeping with (or not). This runs up against the same wall: rationalism is as pragmatic in its way as economic arrangement. If people have enough pleasure in each other (and “enough” is completely individually defined), they probably want to be together, and why not -- that you will just marry a friend and be happy is as ridiculous to people of strong feeling as marrying for romantic feeling is a dubious proposition to people who would rather live a calm life with a sort of friend. You can see this in the article’s comments: Yes, the article is very true,, say some; Well, I married at 16 and am now 110 and still happy, I don’t see what the fuss is, says another; yes, you should stick with it; no, I was right to leave the first mate(s), etc. Any pronouncement that speaks as if love and marriage are and should be one thing gets it wrong, as many people who try to submit to that find out. The idea that you can solve unhappiness in marriage by accepting whoever we’re stuck with and making a rational go of it is not likely to work, except for those (maybe the majority) who already do that.
257
Brilliant. Everything in this essay is spot on.
174
Some years ago, I read an article based on social science research indicating that the fluttery "in love" phase of romantic love lasts on average no longer than 18 months.
Then, as I was perusing the literature of grief after a loss, I read that the "active daily pain" phase of grieving a loved one lasts on average no longer than 18 months.
In my own life, both of these estimates have been roughly accurate.
Perhaps most humans are simply not wired to feel emotions so intense longer than about a year and a half. Those emotions then must transform to something else in order for us to function adaptively.
Then, as I was perusing the literature of grief after a loss, I read that the "active daily pain" phase of grieving a loved one lasts on average no longer than 18 months.
In my own life, both of these estimates have been roughly accurate.
Perhaps most humans are simply not wired to feel emotions so intense longer than about a year and a half. Those emotions then must transform to something else in order for us to function adaptively.
473
Been married for 40 years, through sickness and health (ours, our children's, our parents), richer and poorer (ditto), in good times and bad (ditto). Life is hard. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. Sometimes your hard work pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Marry a partner, someone with the same values and same dreams, someone you can be yourself with, someone you can count on no matter what, someone who makes you laugh, someone you can cry with, someone who overlooks your flaws while helping you to better yourself, someone you can grow old with. This is how loves matters.
1241
People marry for the wrong reasons and have children for the wrong reasons, but surely this only happens in First World countries, where people see all their bad decisions as easily fixed by divorce and believe that all their children will be supported by the taxpayers.
Idiocracy!
Idiocracy!
76
"One of the privileges of being on our own is therefore the sincere impression that we are really quite easy to live with."
So true, often even when we're not on our own.
I'm 66, been with the same woman for more than 30 years, and it's only in the last decade that introspection has disabused me of thinking how wonderful and easygoing I am.
My wife is apparently quite the tolerant saint.
So true, often even when we're not on our own.
I'm 66, been with the same woman for more than 30 years, and it's only in the last decade that introspection has disabused me of thinking how wonderful and easygoing I am.
My wife is apparently quite the tolerant saint.
592
The author is remarkably perceptive about the dynamics of long-term marriage. My favorite line: "Choosing whom to commit ourselves to is merely a case of identifying which particular variety of suffering we would most like to sacrifice ourselves for." Humans are deeply flawed. In order to keep a marriage intact one must learn to look beyond the daily disappointments, failures, frustrations, and rash words, and focus on a partner's intentions. In the long marriages I have seen fail, couples split when disdain and disrespect poisoned their relationships at the root, not because of an impulsive tumble with a third party or things said that could not be forgotten, or forgiven.
The observations on why we walk away from the too-perfect match are astute. I did that myself.
The observations on why we walk away from the too-perfect match are astute. I did that myself.
261
A world authority on snow safety once said "you really can't call yourself an avalanche expert until you've been in an avalanche." We so often take the plunge, no matter how cautiously measured, before we're old enough and experienced enough to have learned ourselves enough to unite in love in a sustainable way. We are in love but don't know ourselves enough to know what we need from our partner and how to understand them well enough to love them like we want to. Some evolve into truly connected mutual understanding surrounded by love, and some trudge on out of a sense of commitment, yet never evolve. It took me 24 years to know I had failed in my first attempt - so I could finally complete the process of learning myself well enough to be the partner true love requires for sustainability. Permanent union in love requires understanding each other with complete acceptance - all the while being able to continually celebrate each other via the perfect feeling that true love is. You don't know it until you are living it. Maybe good fortune favors the prepared. I feel very fortunate to now be among the luckiest ones.
288
I felt the most valuable part of this essay was the paragraph that includes "The love most of us will have tasted early on was often confused with other, more destructive dynamics . . . We marry the wrong people because we don’t associate being loved with feeling happy."
The problem with the rather cavalier advice that follows, that "it doesn’t matter if we find we have married the wrong person" and "We mustn’t abandon him or her..." is that it doesn't take into account the weight of those "more destructive dynamics" upon which most of us unconsciously model our adult relationships. It is most certainly not good or right to continue in an abusive relationship, and all the juggling about historical concepts of love versus pragmatism in marriage won't make it right.
Having just emerged from the abrupt but long-overdue termination of the tailings of a quarter-century relationship, I can attest to the benefits of freeing oneself from a joyless labyrinth of tolerations. Compromises and give-and-take are necessary to any relationship, but when the wrong of it outweighs the right of it, save yourself and find the exit.
The problem with the rather cavalier advice that follows, that "it doesn’t matter if we find we have married the wrong person" and "We mustn’t abandon him or her..." is that it doesn't take into account the weight of those "more destructive dynamics" upon which most of us unconsciously model our adult relationships. It is most certainly not good or right to continue in an abusive relationship, and all the juggling about historical concepts of love versus pragmatism in marriage won't make it right.
Having just emerged from the abrupt but long-overdue termination of the tailings of a quarter-century relationship, I can attest to the benefits of freeing oneself from a joyless labyrinth of tolerations. Compromises and give-and-take are necessary to any relationship, but when the wrong of it outweighs the right of it, save yourself and find the exit.
859
Very early on, my therapist of 8 years told me that we can never get enough love, that our capacity for love far exceeds what our partners, our friends and our family can possibly give to us. Grasping this, and internalizing it, can alleviate a lot of disappointment. It's far more important to take care of ourselves, to love ourselves in a way that others cannot.
812
Monsieur de Boton, aren't feelings thoughts unacknowledged? You seem to say something close when you say people sometimes have a hard time saying yes to love because they have not "considered" love equals happiness. That is one thing. Then, you say choosing a partner is merely choosing the type of suffering one wishes to sacrifice for. What happiness is that? Mind you, I do not disagree that suffering is inherent, even the essence, of love, and perhaps contrary to the American Constitutional happinness, I am merely pointing what strike me as contradictions. Then, you say we merely have to choose people who disagree agreeably. Is that because the pride of self is the ultimate good to be upheld? And what is it that actually does unite two people together such that they become one? What is this love you merely mention fleetingly at the end of your string of statements for which you claim so assuredly the authority of truth? Are you willing to engage, agreeably or not, in a disagrement, and would you consider possible a union with someone who disagrees as to the heart of the matter, as long as the delivery is kind and the love of self is never the subject of the suffering that must be chosen?
136
I asked the right person, she said no. So the hard part is over.
783
First, I married my college sweetheart, and in many ways we were quite compatible, but she was extremely jealous, even of my male pals, so I was constantly defending myself for no reason. She complained constantly about being unhappy and then she started having affairs, but when she started bringing home STDs, I said, "That's enough." After I put my foot down and separated, she spent a lot of time and energy trying to come back. Four years and one child later, we were divorced.
Then I married someone that seemed the opposite of my first wife except she was prettier and as intelligent. It turned out she was passive-aggressive and after two children, criticizing me for not loving the children, she began running away. Twice I took her back, but when she was packing to leave for the third time I said "that's enough." Four years and two children later, we were divorced. She tried to come back for five years.
I never married again, but I did live with another woman for twelve years. It was my best relationship and we had four lovely cats, but finally we became mutually bored and went our separate ways.
Life is amusing and frightening at times, but once one has survived the merry-go-round of relationships, even the bad times seem interesting and enlightening. I don't dislike any of my exes; I just feel I made two bad choices before I got one right the third time.
Then I married someone that seemed the opposite of my first wife except she was prettier and as intelligent. It turned out she was passive-aggressive and after two children, criticizing me for not loving the children, she began running away. Twice I took her back, but when she was packing to leave for the third time I said "that's enough." Four years and two children later, we were divorced. She tried to come back for five years.
I never married again, but I did live with another woman for twelve years. It was my best relationship and we had four lovely cats, but finally we became mutually bored and went our separate ways.
Life is amusing and frightening at times, but once one has survived the merry-go-round of relationships, even the bad times seem interesting and enlightening. I don't dislike any of my exes; I just feel I made two bad choices before I got one right the third time.
185
We can call it the "wrong person" but what that likely means is "a person not completely compatible with us, our strengths, views, foibles, fears, loves, habits etc". It is not possible to find such a person unless, perhaps, you are marrying your identical twin. The struggle to be kind, accepting, assertive, caring and strong in the face of the inevitable differences that will emerge between two people is the struggle to grow, and evolve and mature as a human being. Having it all your way in no way will make you a better person. But rising to the challenge of living well and decently with another person who has, through nobody's fault, disappointed us, failed to live up to expectations or, turned out to be different from what we had believed, will make you a kinder, more accepting, wiser, philosophical human being and that is what we are here for.
201
"What we really seek is familiarity." Amen to that. Turns out what I wanted was the constant rain of negativity that felt like home. Gawdaloneknows what she was looking for at the time, but 30 years later we're still friends, and laugh about those silly young fools.
113
The title caught my attention and drew me into the article but after reading it I feel like I just consumed a word salad. I cannot quite identify what I ate and it really is not very filling but it looked good sitting there on the table. Yes, I am sure that most of us who are older than, say, 40 know that marriage is far more complicated than idealized in western culture, it requires some patience as it evolves for the couple, and is not a one-size-fits-all proposition. So what else is new?
For those of us who have enjoyed (or tolerated, as the case may be) a long marriage, we already know what has made it work and the various stages it goes through. For those not yet married, well, no words can really tell you what you really need to learn for yourself.
For those of us who have enjoyed (or tolerated, as the case may be) a long marriage, we already know what has made it work and the various stages it goes through. For those not yet married, well, no words can really tell you what you really need to learn for yourself.
218
After two years single (and a total of 12 years spent with only 1 sexual partner) I've recently stumbled into a long distance relationship with a beautiful, intelligent and wonderfully complex women. She also happens to be a woman who is proudly and consciously non-monogamous. She made that very clear when we first started spending time together and a huge part of our relationship thus far has been learning how to love and respect someone who has made such a choice.
Why the focus on marriage or finding the "right" marriage if the institution is so crumbly and unsuited for our "modern" times? (Let's set aside for a minute that that "other", pre-romanticism, form of marriage that the author refers to is still very much alive in many ways across the world and that having a marriage of "feeling" is a privilege that is afforded to the few rather than the many.) My girlfriend? and I have no interest in marriage or having children. I love a great many things about her including that we share these opinions. While I agree, in general, with the views expressed by the author it seems to me that by focusing simply on the institution of marriage and how it can be made to fit a "pessimistic" mindset, that we risk reproducing all of the terrible things about marriage that the author discusses. Might we not do better to promote (and destigmatize) alternative approaches to managing and confronting the realities of human frailty and desire?
Why the focus on marriage or finding the "right" marriage if the institution is so crumbly and unsuited for our "modern" times? (Let's set aside for a minute that that "other", pre-romanticism, form of marriage that the author refers to is still very much alive in many ways across the world and that having a marriage of "feeling" is a privilege that is afforded to the few rather than the many.) My girlfriend? and I have no interest in marriage or having children. I love a great many things about her including that we share these opinions. While I agree, in general, with the views expressed by the author it seems to me that by focusing simply on the institution of marriage and how it can be made to fit a "pessimistic" mindset, that we risk reproducing all of the terrible things about marriage that the author discusses. Might we not do better to promote (and destigmatize) alternative approaches to managing and confronting the realities of human frailty and desire?
72
Those of you who think 50% of marriages end in divorce, please look at this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-is-over-but-t...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-is-over-but-t...
65
Unexpectedly, I married a friend of mine. I say ‘unexpectedly’ because in those days I categorised people in my life as either a platonic friend or possible relationship material. He was definitely a platonic friend, though I knew all too well that he liked me. Still, he played it extremely cool and we dated other people. Now and then we hung out as friends. Great listener that he was, I felt comfortable being myself around him. And he could make me laugh with his quick wit (and still does). Fast forward two years later. We meet up in town. His hair is dyed blue ala Dennis Rodman (he’s a basketball fanatic). This triggers something in me and I’m suddenly overwhelmed with an intense love for him. We commit to each other that same evening. Our families meet. Three years later we get married. September 2016 is our 15-year wedding anniversary. Peace, respect and love continue to grow. I like to think that our initial friendship helped in this respect. It's helped us to disagree on an issue without casting judgment.
250
Right on. So true. I'66 and never remarried. Lots of long terms. My goal is only finding someone I respect, some chemistry and who does not annoy me.
Hard to find. Feel that way about my roommate -- a few years younger than me -- but alas he's looking for someone at least 10 years younger,
Hard to find. Feel that way about my roommate -- a few years younger than me -- but alas he's looking for someone at least 10 years younger,
65
Everyone is the wrong person at some point.
The trick is getting over those points.
In truth, I think it is amazing that 50% of marriages survive!
The trick is getting over those points.
In truth, I think it is amazing that 50% of marriages survive!
142
Its not only the Romanticism of Love, its that marriage is so excessively hyped as the penultimate must-do situation in the US that gets so many in trouble. We MUST get married, or else. Or else suffer is the only answer ever given. Singles suffer in their one-ness, all couples know this as fact. All their moms and grandmoms preach this alleged fact.
Plus, marriage is still in this age of women taking care of all their financial needs (often far better then any man could) preached to them as the ultimate test of their Womanhood. If you dont marry, you fail as a woman, no matter how much else you have accomplished. Even if they have a failed marriage behind them, that they simply married in the first place is a success for their womanhood.
Its that as a culture we hold marriage up as some sort of Perfection value adding act, when its as far from providing perfection or being perfect itself. As it has no actual inherent power to do anything to either party. (Except stress them out, especially the bride, in the preparations leading up to it, where the perfect little-girls dream wedding has to take place at any cost.)
Getting married should be a mundane act, not celebrated until the couple shows some real commitment and accomplishment to not holding on to the fairy-tale aspects, but to the hard work of forcing two, usually poorly matched, lives to work. Marry in silence then after maybe two hard years of work - throw a party for those family and friends who still like you.
Plus, marriage is still in this age of women taking care of all their financial needs (often far better then any man could) preached to them as the ultimate test of their Womanhood. If you dont marry, you fail as a woman, no matter how much else you have accomplished. Even if they have a failed marriage behind them, that they simply married in the first place is a success for their womanhood.
Its that as a culture we hold marriage up as some sort of Perfection value adding act, when its as far from providing perfection or being perfect itself. As it has no actual inherent power to do anything to either party. (Except stress them out, especially the bride, in the preparations leading up to it, where the perfect little-girls dream wedding has to take place at any cost.)
Getting married should be a mundane act, not celebrated until the couple shows some real commitment and accomplishment to not holding on to the fairy-tale aspects, but to the hard work of forcing two, usually poorly matched, lives to work. Marry in silence then after maybe two hard years of work - throw a party for those family and friends who still like you.
116
As a gay person, I would simply observe that, for a significant group of people around the world, the reasonable, arranged marriage remains a profoundly stupid idea.
77
For all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.
You will be most seriously hurt by those whom you trust the most and are closest to you....family and friends.
You will be most seriously hurt by those whom you trust the most and are closest to you....family and friends.
47
My wife of 15 years is great at disagreement. She gets over stuff. It's how we got through the first brutal years fighting over every stupid thing imaginable (because that's how I'm crazy). Also, I'm excellent at kissing.
For that, I would like to thank her in front of all the universe (of NY Times readers). I love you, T.
Now, if you would only get off my back about picking up after myself, we can live happily ever after.
For that, I would like to thank her in front of all the universe (of NY Times readers). I love you, T.
Now, if you would only get off my back about picking up after myself, we can live happily ever after.
155
I've been married for a couple of years and frankly my life hasn't changed much other than there are two in stead of one and a bit of additional expenses as result. (At least that is the story I'd like to stick to when I'm not dealing with wife's OCD behavior).
All those expectations about dependent happiness, and entailing notion of "pefect" and "wrong", are no more than delusional obsessions. And my theory is that those who are not happy alone (because he/she is dependent) are not likely to be happy in marriage either (becaue he/she is still dependent).
All those expectations about dependent happiness, and entailing notion of "pefect" and "wrong", are no more than delusional obsessions. And my theory is that those who are not happy alone (because he/she is dependent) are not likely to be happy in marriage either (becaue he/she is still dependent).
49
Asking "And how are you crazy?" is unlikely to lead to sex. That's largely the point of the date and the marriage.
I married at age 20 because he was beautiful physically and I found the smell of him irresistible. Living together was unusual then and unacceptable to my religious self. So we married. Of course we each chose the wrong person because neither was done growing and changing. We matured into people with very little in common, with divergent political worldviews, with differing hobbies and tastes. Yet 30 years later our marriage persists, thrives at times. Attributable as much to luck as to our individual commitments.
That we survived through the changes in our twenties meant we weren't surprised by the ones that came in the ensuing decades. That's the thing no one tells you. At 30 and 40 and 50 and beyond, we aren't done growing. Health, family and career challenges all continue to shape you, individually and as a pair.
We have been lucky. "Wrong" in our case hasn't meant abusive, addicted or unable to remain together. Recognizing how much of our success is outside of our hands, I think we need to be kind to those who haven't been lucky, to those whose marriages end before the death of one of the partners.
I married at age 20 because he was beautiful physically and I found the smell of him irresistible. Living together was unusual then and unacceptable to my religious self. So we married. Of course we each chose the wrong person because neither was done growing and changing. We matured into people with very little in common, with divergent political worldviews, with differing hobbies and tastes. Yet 30 years later our marriage persists, thrives at times. Attributable as much to luck as to our individual commitments.
That we survived through the changes in our twenties meant we weren't surprised by the ones that came in the ensuing decades. That's the thing no one tells you. At 30 and 40 and 50 and beyond, we aren't done growing. Health, family and career challenges all continue to shape you, individually and as a pair.
We have been lucky. "Wrong" in our case hasn't meant abusive, addicted or unable to remain together. Recognizing how much of our success is outside of our hands, I think we need to be kind to those who haven't been lucky, to those whose marriages end before the death of one of the partners.
175
I am only in partial agreement with this column. I believe that agreement on certain basic tents is essential to a good partnership.
The writer avers that "The person who is best suited to us is not the person who shares our every taste . . . but the person who can negotiate differences in taste intelligently — the person who is good at disagreement."
This may apply to issues such as clothes, food, or where to live, but how are you going to negotiate a basic physical incompatibility where the partners are not attracted to each other? How are you going to negotiate a situation where one partner wants children and the other does not? Half a child?
My point is that you need to start out with agreement on a few, basic values. If you have those, and if you like and trust each other, then you can negotiate the rest.
The writer avers that "The person who is best suited to us is not the person who shares our every taste . . . but the person who can negotiate differences in taste intelligently — the person who is good at disagreement."
This may apply to issues such as clothes, food, or where to live, but how are you going to negotiate a basic physical incompatibility where the partners are not attracted to each other? How are you going to negotiate a situation where one partner wants children and the other does not? Half a child?
My point is that you need to start out with agreement on a few, basic values. If you have those, and if you like and trust each other, then you can negotiate the rest.
76
My husband and I met and fell in love with the wrong people over 30 years ago. In so many ways we were opposites and what drew us to each other is a bit of a serendipitous mystery. Because of our differences our relationship has always been full of challenges ,so the romance has never been about some perceived perfection. Life is messy and tough and people are NOT perfect, but life can also be fun especially if that's important to both of you . As a couple we have loved,fought,laughed, raised children,fought, laughed ,learned about our own failings,and unbelievably still share the same passion for each other even now in our much older bodies. Our marriage vows included the line "to always indulge each other " and this combined with never expecting things to be easy may be part of why we've been successful(so far...)This article is the best advice I have ever read about long term relationships.
95
in my adulthood (post 40) i found that a good partner is indeed one who has “the capacity to tolerate differences with generosity,” and that i must strive to be that way too. this is not pessimistic, just true and eloquently put. the accompanying illustration is just as apt.
71
I have just retired after a career as a sociologist studying and teaching courses on marriage and family. This article returns to some of the initial perspectives that the Sociology of Marriage and Family grew up around. Going back to the 1930s and 1940s the founding sociologists, Reuben Hill and Willard Waller, based their theory on the existential perspective that we are all basically alone in the world. The loneliness is painful and anxiety provoking and we all seek a lifetime bond with a soulmate to assuage this profound loneliness. But any such bonding per se inhibits our independence of action and limits choices we must make. That, also, is painful and anxiety provoking. It is frustrating on a daily basis and provokes a continuing tension with the person we bonded with. This is the fundamental paradox of the romantic model of marriage. The article's solution, negotiation of differences, also harks back to Waller and Hill. They wrote about communication and adaptability. Their textbook was basically an analysis of specific problems that arose from the basic paradox, couple communication about them, and (to use modern terminology) thinking outside the box to solve those problems. I don't know whether the author of this article also had his beginning in marriage study in Waller and Hill, or he just rediscovered the basic truth that Waller and Hill explored 70 or more years ago. But the basic story is well-worth consideration by 21st century couples and counselors.
114
According to Pope Francis (OK, so he's a lifelong bachelor, but still a pretty wise old dude), there are three words critical to every happy marriage:
Please
Thanks
Sorry
It's so easy to neglect everyday courtesies and politeness in the course of a long-term relationship. And it's so important to try not to. For example, I try to stop myself and start over every time I catch myself using the command form with my spouse.
Efficiency of communication can come at a high cost in a marriage.
Please
Thanks
Sorry
It's so easy to neglect everyday courtesies and politeness in the course of a long-term relationship. And it's so important to try not to. For example, I try to stop myself and start over every time I catch myself using the command form with my spouse.
Efficiency of communication can come at a high cost in a marriage.
255
It was a moment in time i never thought my marriage would survive. And then something interesting happened: as I was shedding all my illusions about my partner and I stopped being disappointed by his behavior (or lack of..), I started to appreciate him just the way he was. As unusual as it sounds, our marriage is all worth it now. All I can say in the end is that the culture/subculture we are exposed to is very detrimental in terms of expectations of marriage. It is a very sad fact affecting women worse. We get into marriage with huge personal expectations and not so much the humbleness of a new experience. Perfect setup for unhappiness. Then in the end our children have to deal with it all.
147
The best relationship I've ever witnessed was a man and woman, together 25 years, committed to each other, but who had never lived together. They lived in separate houses, side-by-side, spent a few nights a week in one house or the other, had meals together, took vacations together, etc., but always had their own home to return to. It seemed to me they had worked it all out so perfectly. Solitude when they needed it, togetherness when they wanted it. I haven't been lucky enough to work something like this out myself. Most partners expect to be joined at the hip. I relish my time alone enough that I've given up on relationships, but I wish I had found someone who could value "separate togetherness."
295
I've seen a couple of examples along these lines also. This would be my dream come true. Although I love my spouse, I think I would love him even more if we had adjoining apartments.
112
Wow, thank god I got the memo before I got married. Marriage isn't all roses, it takes work. In this case work means talking, negotiating, listening, and compromise. I married my wife because I thought she was adaptable, and could change and grow. The only worry was could I. As it is, through sorrow, pain outside of our control, rather than pull apart, we have learned to pull together. My worry now is she may die before me, and vice versa. She is my best friend. I feel romance when I look at her face, and feel, yes feel the beauty inside.
98
It's been said that there is only perfection in paradise. I am grateful, each and every day, that my bride accepts and loves me the man that I am. I would not trade our fabulously imperfect life for anything.
51
I do agree with Botton(sorry I misspelled your name before) that we seek the familiarity of our birth family feelings and it is often tragic for women born into absuive families when they can't stop
themselves from marrying an absuive husband. In my friend's case(she tried to avoid it but they seemingly just weren't happy apart) I don't think her husband is physically abusive so at least it's a milder form but she said to me once that a man was polite to her on the bus and she thought, "I could've married someone nice." And the young son knew.
themselves from marrying an absuive husband. In my friend's case(she tried to avoid it but they seemingly just weren't happy apart) I don't think her husband is physically abusive so at least it's a milder form but she said to me once that a man was polite to her on the bus and she thought, "I could've married someone nice." And the young son knew.
46
Emotional abuse can be every bit as damaging as physical. It's insidious nature results in scares on the psyche that can take much longer to heal.
74
I gave up trying to find someone to live with when I realized that I dont want to change and it would be totally wrong to inflict myself and another to the pain of someone trying to reform me so they could stand living with me. Oscar Madison and I have a lot in common
28
Check our Joni Mitchell's LOVES ILLUSIONS. Few of us reach maturity and if we do there is so much to learn about patience and the limitations and the unending disappointments of life and all relationships. The dreamy hopes of childhood and adolescence continue on as though there really is hope that one can find all one wishes for in the most intimate and meaningful relationships of our lives. Some finally get it and they are the fortunate ones who if they have the friendship and wisdom that can grow in such a committed relationship they can count themselves incredibly fortunate. For the rest of us the shortcomings of life and reality are blamed on the insufficiencies of our partners and there is no end to such disillusionment. Growing up is hard to do. Patience and tolerance and appreciation come slowly as life unfolds and for the lucky ones who actually become adults the treasures of intimacy can unfold but even then there are the limits that most of us cannot bear...'tis a shame. "I've looked at love from both sides and..." Read the lyrics. Learn something about patience and reality and maturity. Then you might be able to love your partner and yourself even if you both fall short of angelic sanctity.
43
I enjoyed your comments. For those who want to listen, the song title is "both sides now "
27
If it were easy, everyone would do it ... oh, shoot. Oh, I know!! If it were easy, everyone would survive it!
There's some good advice in the comments so far. Only a few are of the form "Wow - what are you talking about? My wife and I have gotten along from day one!" Of course, it's usually a guy saying that, but I digress.
Here's some simple advice: recognize that opposites do attract, and so you should probably not marry your opposite. Your opposite may "complete you" but eventually that novelty will wear off, and you will (maybe both of you) begin the process of trying to make your partner more like you. That will likely fail and you will likely get very frustrated.
All the other advice, like treating your spouse and your family members, the same way you would treat someone outside your family, is all good. And in the case of children, try to treat them like adults as soon as possible. At first, treat them like adults who don't know as much as you, and then later, like adults who know nearly as much as you. You will always have experience on them but that doesn't mean you're always right. Parents have a lot to offer their kids as adults, as long as they allow their kids to have their own opinions without being grumpy about it.
And for the love of god, try to remember how you felt at their age, and have a little sympathy for their plight.
There's some good advice in the comments so far. Only a few are of the form "Wow - what are you talking about? My wife and I have gotten along from day one!" Of course, it's usually a guy saying that, but I digress.
Here's some simple advice: recognize that opposites do attract, and so you should probably not marry your opposite. Your opposite may "complete you" but eventually that novelty will wear off, and you will (maybe both of you) begin the process of trying to make your partner more like you. That will likely fail and you will likely get very frustrated.
All the other advice, like treating your spouse and your family members, the same way you would treat someone outside your family, is all good. And in the case of children, try to treat them like adults as soon as possible. At first, treat them like adults who don't know as much as you, and then later, like adults who know nearly as much as you. You will always have experience on them but that doesn't mean you're always right. Parents have a lot to offer their kids as adults, as long as they allow their kids to have their own opinions without being grumpy about it.
And for the love of god, try to remember how you felt at their age, and have a little sympathy for their plight.
55
In the end we should treat our spouses as we do strangers, with respect and kindness.
126
This article might be improved by interviewing some of the many NYT commenters who are over the age of 80, which seems to be about half of them in certain articles.
23
I was so disappointed with this essay until I read these lines: "the person who is best suited to us...the person who is good at disagreement...the capacity to tolerate differences with generosity.... Compatibility is an achievement of love; it must not be its precondition.
45
Romantic Love delusions infect marriage.
"Love" needs disambiguation. See CS Lewis "Four Loves" for starters--about five Greek words translatable as "love" (one goes beyond human relations--"love ice cream". Ranging from charity-love (Lewis goes bonkers here--the Christian god could charity-love humans but humans charity-loving god?) Charity is care by superiors of inferiors. "God is love," said John, well then Love is God.
"Yes," said the Greeks--at least one of them--"the oldest and youngest"--Eros. Cupid in Latin (kindergarten kids exchanging Valentines, know not what they do!) gets sexplay right as opposed to reproductive sex.
But eros-love (homo or hetero) has many variations, beginning as Plato/Socrates said with a desire for another's beautiful body--an identifiable person; the general desire for some body or other (go to the bar see what's available, like hunger and the fridge) is better called horniness. But then you realize there are many beautiful bodies; and that beautiful minds (psyches, personalities) are sexy too.
Romantic love---Lancelot-Guinevere--champion and queen in requited illicit service; often confused with monogamous eros-love. Exclusivity can be one sided--sheiks-harems, femmes-fatale and stables. We don't like sharing but don't mind being shared.
Marriage was Christendom's eros-love license--sans controls to propagate the faith.
Marriage should be a license for parent-child love--a cooperative commitment to lifelong care. Unappreciated.
"Love" needs disambiguation. See CS Lewis "Four Loves" for starters--about five Greek words translatable as "love" (one goes beyond human relations--"love ice cream". Ranging from charity-love (Lewis goes bonkers here--the Christian god could charity-love humans but humans charity-loving god?) Charity is care by superiors of inferiors. "God is love," said John, well then Love is God.
"Yes," said the Greeks--at least one of them--"the oldest and youngest"--Eros. Cupid in Latin (kindergarten kids exchanging Valentines, know not what they do!) gets sexplay right as opposed to reproductive sex.
But eros-love (homo or hetero) has many variations, beginning as Plato/Socrates said with a desire for another's beautiful body--an identifiable person; the general desire for some body or other (go to the bar see what's available, like hunger and the fridge) is better called horniness. But then you realize there are many beautiful bodies; and that beautiful minds (psyches, personalities) are sexy too.
Romantic love---Lancelot-Guinevere--champion and queen in requited illicit service; often confused with monogamous eros-love. Exclusivity can be one sided--sheiks-harems, femmes-fatale and stables. We don't like sharing but don't mind being shared.
Marriage was Christendom's eros-love license--sans controls to propagate the faith.
Marriage should be a license for parent-child love--a cooperative commitment to lifelong care. Unappreciated.
25
In this fine article that enumerates the many reasons people get married, if we're talking about love, not mentioned is the notion of Respect. All the reasons people want to get married notwithstanding, it's hard, if not impossible, to love someone you don't respect. By the same token, it's rather easy to fall out of love and consequentially seek divorce from someone you no longer respect.
87
So very true. And loss of respect can gradually shade into contempt -- the most powerful marital poison.
71
The article certainly describes my experiences of many relationships and current 15 year marriage. I have put it in my NYT Saved file.
And reality runs counter to songs, movies, media.
We fall in love with an enhanced version of someone and they do the same with us.
Then the tedium of everyday sets in. And all those little annoyance build up. I truly wish I were single but children, expenses, circumstances etc puts me on a road where I don't see any exit sign.
Thanks for pointing out this is the reality for many of us.
And reality runs counter to songs, movies, media.
We fall in love with an enhanced version of someone and they do the same with us.
Then the tedium of everyday sets in. And all those little annoyance build up. I truly wish I were single but children, expenses, circumstances etc puts me on a road where I don't see any exit sign.
Thanks for pointing out this is the reality for many of us.
41
Let's not forget sense of humor. If the person you're dating and you don't crack each other up from time to time, you may not want to make take the relationship to more serious levels. After 23 years of marriage my wife and I (both introverts, by the way) can still make each other laugh practically to tears. Oh, to be sure, we have our fair share of conflict. But there's some connection made through our compatible senses of humor that keeps our disagreements from threatening the trust at the core of our relationship.
132
Roughly aware of my feelings on the matter, my son gave me a tacky bumper sticker one time. It said, "Every man should marry. After all, happiness isn't the only thing in life." No, I didn't display it on the family car.
I fortunately never had the notion that I might find happiness in marriage. And I haven't been disappointed.
Brilliant essay. Though I think there is a dichotomy between what men and women, on average, expect from marriage. I think most women expect to find happiness. I think most men don't.
Some Harvard psychologists did a study recently that found wives are happiest when they know they can make their husbands miserable. There ought be a lot of happy women then.
I fortunately never had the notion that I might find happiness in marriage. And I haven't been disappointed.
Brilliant essay. Though I think there is a dichotomy between what men and women, on average, expect from marriage. I think most women expect to find happiness. I think most men don't.
Some Harvard psychologists did a study recently that found wives are happiest when they know they can make their husbands miserable. There ought be a lot of happy women then.
46
Could you please provide a link or a citation to that Harvard study? I have my doubts about it.
56
"I think most women expect to find happiness. I think most men don't."
And I think that financially independent women find marriage less and less appealing, at least when no kids are on the horizon.
And I think that financially independent women find marriage less and less appealing, at least when no kids are on the horizon.
97
There is no wrong person because we do not have one marriage but many. My husband married someone who drank and recovered, two different women. I married a man who went into cancer surgery and came out without any memory of our life, two different men. (He also endured me writing about the intimate details of our life and the public exposure of our mistakes, which changed both of us.) The practice of tolerating differences has kept us together for 37 years. Not just the ones in our honeymoon selves, but the differences created in the wake of massive life transformations. Our discovery has been if you don't like the person you're with, wait around and see who they change into next. But learn to wait patiently, with some kindness, and a sense of humor.
500
Do yourself a favor. Don't get married. You've got no chance at it.
34
This is a sad comment. Many people are in fact happy that they married. There is no right path for everyone.
43
Marriage exists for the children, not for the spouses. I thought everyone knew that. Kids need consistent living and care, otherwise they get bent on one direction or another. The love the parents feel for one another us transformed -- sublimated -- into love of their children. The spouses only need to love each other enough so they don't hurt their children. When the children are home, love can return to the spouse.
9
I've had the opposite experience.
The trouble in my marriage erupted when the children got old enough for us to have serious substantive disagreements about how to parent. We could not have predicted these deep disagreements while we were dating.
Now that the children are almost fully launched, I find that there is less conflict in my marriage.
The only good thing about having serious disagreements on parenting issues:
it means an end to silly fights, because you then only fight about something that is deeply important to you.
The trouble in my marriage erupted when the children got old enough for us to have serious substantive disagreements about how to parent. We could not have predicted these deep disagreements while we were dating.
Now that the children are almost fully launched, I find that there is less conflict in my marriage.
The only good thing about having serious disagreements on parenting issues:
it means an end to silly fights, because you then only fight about something that is deeply important to you.
25
Not having kids (by choice) makes marriage easier.
35
I completely agree with this piece, and having come from parents who married a collective EIGHT times, wish it had been written sooner. A wise woman once told me that the first year of marriage is not the hardest, that it's actually the first ten, because it takes that long to "learn another person."
We are not meant to be alone. Few argue that point, or that the greatest lesson to be learned is how to live well among others. If we all master this at home, perhaps the skill can be applied on a global scale. Maybe our homes are where world peace begins.
We are not meant to be alone. Few argue that point, or that the greatest lesson to be learned is how to live well among others. If we all master this at home, perhaps the skill can be applied on a global scale. Maybe our homes are where world peace begins.
33
You are correct, we are not meant to live alone. But we are not meant to live in nuclear families either. Tribal life, which was our experience for countless millenia, had no such one-on-one stress. And now we have no community at all. We presently define that word as anyone with a common interest. That is NOT community -- it's a virtual group, not an actual one.
47
What a ridiculous article! Sex, spouse's families, the nature of each with respect to their history of commitment, humor, overlapping interests and principles, jobs and interests that compete with the relationship over time, children and the fatigue that is a part of that, flexibility of each in terms of both personalities, understanding natures (or not), domineering vs subservient personalities, kindness, attraction that holds up, and did I mention sex, were not tackled as factors that really affect the guts of success or not. Most of these can be predicted to some reasonable degree to at least envision and assess what's ahead.
From experience and hundreds of conversations with others, there is one thing is definitely a peek at the future: if you are a man, observe how your potential wife relates to her father, brothers, and then the family in general. If that relationship is not especially good you are probably going to have a less than marvelous marriage. If it's great, then success is far more likely. Of course, switch the evaluation if you are a woman. In any case, evaluate everything in the first paragraph too.
Prof. Crow
From experience and hundreds of conversations with others, there is one thing is definitely a peek at the future: if you are a man, observe how your potential wife relates to her father, brothers, and then the family in general. If that relationship is not especially good you are probably going to have a less than marvelous marriage. If it's great, then success is far more likely. Of course, switch the evaluation if you are a woman. In any case, evaluate everything in the first paragraph too.
Prof. Crow
32
Marrying for "feelings" is a dead end. We have not evolved as human beings. We are the same human race that has always and will always exist. Fallen.
No marriage, therefore, which is based on "feeling" or "instinct" will last.
Marriage has a purpose which feelings alone will never support since feelings are not to be trusted, are mercurial and ephemeral. Not the foundations of a good marriage.
Marriage's purpose is two fold; to bond the man and woman in a mutual self giving, lifelong love which makes them one. And through this bond to create new life and raise a new generation of humans. Each spouse uses the imperfections of the other to grow in virtue and to help one another to be the man or woman he and she were meant to be.
A marriage that is only about feelings and sharing space, bodies, and money is likely to last only as long as the feelings do. Imperfections will not draw them together but tear them apart. Their cohabitation may be fulfilling as long as the problems of the day don't swamp them or demand too much from them. They can only sail as long as the waters are calm or they feel like it's worth it to stay. If the purpose of the marriage is temporal happiness or companionship or neediness, it is not very permanent.
No marriage, therefore, which is based on "feeling" or "instinct" will last.
Marriage has a purpose which feelings alone will never support since feelings are not to be trusted, are mercurial and ephemeral. Not the foundations of a good marriage.
Marriage's purpose is two fold; to bond the man and woman in a mutual self giving, lifelong love which makes them one. And through this bond to create new life and raise a new generation of humans. Each spouse uses the imperfections of the other to grow in virtue and to help one another to be the man or woman he and she were meant to be.
A marriage that is only about feelings and sharing space, bodies, and money is likely to last only as long as the feelings do. Imperfections will not draw them together but tear them apart. Their cohabitation may be fulfilling as long as the problems of the day don't swamp them or demand too much from them. They can only sail as long as the waters are calm or they feel like it's worth it to stay. If the purpose of the marriage is temporal happiness or companionship or neediness, it is not very permanent.
18
What I don't get is why the author (or anyone) would accept that. We have one life to live. And we are to live it in misery because of what? Why? Because we are told one type of marriage is allowed and required. Being single parents? No way. Divorce? Humiliating. Polyamorous? Too weird. I say no. No life of misery for me. Make your life what you need it to be, just do it openly and honestly.
46
Not sure the author should be using "we" so frequently. I did not share many of the ideas and needs expressed when getting to know my husband to be. And we have been married 30 years
17
Poetic license?
More elegant than repeating "many of us" over and over.
More elegant than repeating "many of us" over and over.
23
I have never in my 66 years met "the person who is good at disagreement" so I don't believe any such person exists.The author's "philosophy of pessimism" might be realistic but cannot be the reason why anyone chooses to get married, essentially he is saying hope for the best when you marry, but expect the worst! Well the worst happened to me so it cost me $30,000 in legal fees to get divorced proving once again that anyone who marries without an ironclad pre-nuptial agreement is crazy! If I re-wrote contact law on marriages. I would not allow any couple to take out a contract to marry(a marriage license) unless they already had an ironclad pre-nuptial agreement in place first!
14
I have known many people who were good at disagreement. If you have met none among all the people in your life, perhaps you are simply not easy to disagree with.
I learned long ago that when I found myself experiencing a similar pattern in my relationships with different people, it was time to look within. The common element was me.
I learned long ago that when I found myself experiencing a similar pattern in my relationships with different people, it was time to look within. The common element was me.
75
Fighting fairly is a skill that can be learned.
43
The compatibility of our mutual neuroses, and the ability to work out differences with civility, dictate the ultimate success of any relationship.
22
Its a matter of development as humans. We seek to duplicate our primordial relationship somewhere deep in our brains- the perfect intimacy, love. Until we really know and love ourselves, intimacy in a romantic relationship is full of IEDs
14
Young Man to Doctor Johnson: "Should I marry, or should I stay single?"
Doctor Johnson to Young Man:"I do not know whether you should marry or stay single. I do know that whichever you choose, you will regret it."
Doctor Johnson to Young Man:"I do not know whether you should marry or stay single. I do know that whichever you choose, you will regret it."
108
Anything that deflates Romanticism makes us stronger -- individually and collectively. I know, we in the West think our Romanticism makes us far more advanced than other cultures. But we're wrong. Delusion is always wrong -- as wrong as forced marriage.
Thanks for this article. This perspective has been a long time coming.
Thanks for this article. This perspective has been a long time coming.
19
Positivism is the preeminent delusion of western cultures, not romanticism.
25
There is only perfection in paradise. Our mortal challenge is to enjoy all that is given us and to share it with others.
18
Marriage is a net sum proposition. If you can keep those things that you like about your partner front and center and can subjugate what you perceive as their faults, the marriage will survive. If you can't it won't. If it doesn't survive and you are discarded by your partner, you can only move on by reversing the process: By moving what you perceived as their positives to the rear of your consciousness and the negatives to the front. The longer you were together, the harder both processes become.
22
Get a dog.
45
Gee, where is there in this notion of marriage anything about wanting to fulfill the happiness of the OTHER person? The article does speak of "love," yes? Which means putting the other before yourself. Which means your notion of the fulfillment of the joy and happiness you are going to receive derives in large part of helping them also find happiness. While I agree with many of the points about romanticism leading to crashing disappointment, it is in large part due to another notion the author holds to - that marriage is all about ME being happy. Love is a verb, a decision. Marriage is the commitment to that decision.
393
Maybe I am still asleep. This article seemed rambling and vague to me. I feel marriage fails (around fifty percent. If fifty percent of planes fell from the sky, you wouldn't get on one) because it is an artificial construct. Just like economics or money in general, or religion. Once you stop believing, it stops working.
23
The fifty percent statistic is wrong. Look it up.
13
The meaning of marriage sometimes seems rambling and vague to me.
6
I find it interesting that most of the respondents (so far) are women.
The reason older adults have more success with marriage is because they have the life experience to understand that there is no 'perfect' anything. Life is short, goofy and at times tragic - and having and keeping close human relationships is difficult. It's how we respond to those things that defines our character. People who strive for adaptability and understanding, and who develop compassionate methods of communicating with each other are positioned well. Marriage these days is like an 'agreement to proceed'. You're asking to be hired to a job without qualifications or experience. How will you succeed? Because you love each other? -maybe. More likely because you've developed some interpersonal skills that can be grown to provide what you need, eventually. But it is work. If you're not capable (i.e. you don't possess any skills), you have a choice: is this important enough to you to get it right?, and, how do you get those skills? Self-evaluation is key, but knowing why (other than love), is also key.
I had many long term relationships over the years that could have easily turned into marriage for all the right reasons, and I ignored them. Until the exact wrong person found me and convinced me to ignore my instincts in favor of a goal that was driven by emotion and biology took over. Evaluate the person, not the goal.
The reason older adults have more success with marriage is because they have the life experience to understand that there is no 'perfect' anything. Life is short, goofy and at times tragic - and having and keeping close human relationships is difficult. It's how we respond to those things that defines our character. People who strive for adaptability and understanding, and who develop compassionate methods of communicating with each other are positioned well. Marriage these days is like an 'agreement to proceed'. You're asking to be hired to a job without qualifications or experience. How will you succeed? Because you love each other? -maybe. More likely because you've developed some interpersonal skills that can be grown to provide what you need, eventually. But it is work. If you're not capable (i.e. you don't possess any skills), you have a choice: is this important enough to you to get it right?, and, how do you get those skills? Self-evaluation is key, but knowing why (other than love), is also key.
I had many long term relationships over the years that could have easily turned into marriage for all the right reasons, and I ignored them. Until the exact wrong person found me and convinced me to ignore my instincts in favor of a goal that was driven by emotion and biology took over. Evaluate the person, not the goal.
11
How can you tell the gender of "most respondents"? Most respondents assign handles to themselves that are gender-neutral.
15
The future of the concept of marrying a person out of love, the concept of romantic love, in the Western world?
This seems a both natural and dangerous concept to have. Natural because to the best of my knowledge--what I have read and experienced--people seem automatically to love, to be brain blasted by beauty, especially in early decades of life. The faces I have loved--Kristin, Fanny, Alexia--are like well remembered planets to my wandering moon. The dangerous aspect of love is of course that it seems in loving the human system aims too high and is apt to be let down--that people are rarely the Gods and Goddesses we expect them to be. On the other hand, if the human system did not aim so high would we ever expect people to surpass themselves, to live up to what we expect of them? The true danger of disappointment in love is if the members of a society are so determined to remain banal, or worse, debase themselves, that idealism collapses in disgust and we simply cannot love in our society any longer.
Romantic love is the expectation that society can live up to lofty image, and if society can no longer do so then it makes little sense to ask that we lower our expectations yet somehow continue to love...How turn against our highest hopes, our deepest sense of the lofty and noble? We can only wonder what is to become of love in an America where by latest technology, communications, acute inspection of the human our debasement is thrust in our faces...Love our mirror?
This seems a both natural and dangerous concept to have. Natural because to the best of my knowledge--what I have read and experienced--people seem automatically to love, to be brain blasted by beauty, especially in early decades of life. The faces I have loved--Kristin, Fanny, Alexia--are like well remembered planets to my wandering moon. The dangerous aspect of love is of course that it seems in loving the human system aims too high and is apt to be let down--that people are rarely the Gods and Goddesses we expect them to be. On the other hand, if the human system did not aim so high would we ever expect people to surpass themselves, to live up to what we expect of them? The true danger of disappointment in love is if the members of a society are so determined to remain banal, or worse, debase themselves, that idealism collapses in disgust and we simply cannot love in our society any longer.
Romantic love is the expectation that society can live up to lofty image, and if society can no longer do so then it makes little sense to ask that we lower our expectations yet somehow continue to love...How turn against our highest hopes, our deepest sense of the lofty and noble? We can only wonder what is to become of love in an America where by latest technology, communications, acute inspection of the human our debasement is thrust in our faces...Love our mirror?
3
This is a fairly nice article, but it names truths with only the fuzziest, poetical explanations, doesn’t get into the relevant psych. Saying “The love most of us will have tasted early on was often confused with other, more destructive dynamics” is unsatisfactory without an explanation. We grow up with critical needs unmet; later in marriage, the present can’t heal the past. (Would a mother’s hug in prison turn Ted Bundy into a loving, benevolent man?) We then, blindly, find our partner to be a failed need-meeter. Also (if NYT will permit me) -- http://pessimisticshrink.blogspot.com/2013/11/normal-0-false-false-false... -- we are attracted to an individual who will not challenge our defenses, self-medications, our sicknesses. Later, still locked in our defenses – and they theirs – we find ourselves lonely again: childhood recapitulated. Of course there’s much more to it than this. But the article is slightly eye-opening and potentially useful.
8
Woody Allen- a perceptive fellow, even if his morals only above something crawls in a sewer, remarked 'Marriage is the abandoning of hope' - and he went on to marry at least a few times - so it that eternal battle between the wise philosopher and something that crawls in the sewer
8
Here is what my wife and I have learned over 18 years of marriage:
Be patient
Accept your spouse as s/he is
Respect each other
Forgive each other
Honestly and openly communicate
Be flexible and compromise
Negotiate conflicts effectively
Share the same goal to resolve conflicts to both party’s satisfaction
Celebrate each other
Be self-aware and “own” your role in interpersonal challenges
Share similar values
Like your partner as you like your best friend
Laugh together
Be patient
Accept your spouse as s/he is
Respect each other
Forgive each other
Honestly and openly communicate
Be flexible and compromise
Negotiate conflicts effectively
Share the same goal to resolve conflicts to both party’s satisfaction
Celebrate each other
Be self-aware and “own” your role in interpersonal challenges
Share similar values
Like your partner as you like your best friend
Laugh together
29
"Naturally, we make a stab at trying to understand them. We visit their families. We look at their photos, we meet their college friends."
-- most people don't.
-- most people don't.
9
This is a terrific article that may not be perfect, like a spouse, but well worth paying attention to. A few years ago I watched a program from a church that had a pre-marriage counseling service. It was run by a few women of the church. They pointed out that there are three phases that we will go through prior to marriage that can lead to a hopeful marriage. The first is a totally romantic phase. Everything is wonderful. The second is a major disruption. This is not just a disagreement like the color of the new car or who washes and who drys. This is a time when the couple are driven apart with anger and / or frustration. If the couple survives, there is the third phase when love matures and deepens. It is an opportunity to experience a sustainable love and one that can persist as the tragedies of life occur. It may be jobs and debts or it may be family. Our own children may not get into MIT or Stanford. Instead they may be in drug rehab or in jail, or even in a terribly abusive marriage. Economics may provide problems. An old adage was that when the flour hits the bottom of the barrel, love flies out the window. What it can be replaced by are frustration, misery, alcohol, and abuse. So while love doesn't conquer all, it can help us sustain all the tragedies of life. To do that, we should see if we can sustain difficulties prior to marriage. That we can is not a guarantee but it does give us hope.
16
This is probably true a lot, and indeed mirrors some lessons I learned, as a long-time single who found the marriage that "took" in my early 40s. It offers some nice pointers to the disillusioned solipsist as to why not to slam the door and move to the Residence Inn. But as much as she and I can annoy each other and butt heads, after 26 years I still enjoy seeing her walk into a room. Period. So you can do it right. Note to husbands: If you even understand your instructions, you are so far ahead of most husbands that complaining about them is really stupid.
20
A very thoughtful op-ed by someone who obviously hasn't found marriage to be as amazing and satisfying as I have. The first time, at 22, I married the wrong person. He was the opposite of guys I had previously been attracted to, but I didn't listen to myself. Twenty-five years later, we both saw the mistake had to end it. But from that came a daughter who knows herself and has a huge capacity for empathy and kindness. At 48, I married a man who has made me totally happy each day since, and I believe the feeling is mutual. The key is to apply weight on what's important--love, peace, laughter --and let the lightweight stuff go. My expectations have always been high--and with maturity (not necessarily age)--continue to be met. Lucky us, I guess .
26
"Compatibility is an achievement of love; it must not be its precondition." Coupled for 28 years and getting married in July, this one line encapsulated my relationship with my partner. Granted marriage for us only became legal across the country last year, but notwithstanding that administrative fact, it is true that compatibility is a gift born of familiarity with the other person and accepting the strengths and weaknesses, not a precondition. Shall my marriage be perfect? Absolutely not. Am I "settling" for the familiar, the easy? Perhaps... after 28 years what is there to lose? But I know that my partner makes me laugh, can anger me and stimulates me each day to be a better me... ultimately the selfish aspect of the marriage act -- what do I get out of it ? -- is the prime motivator. I get far more than by being alone.
15
My favorite author makes it the the Times Sunday Review. Long overdue.
Before Darwin and Freud, Schopenhauer in his 1851 masterpiece essay , "On the Sufferings of the World" said "He who lives to see two or three generations is like a man who sits some time in the conjurer's booth at a fair, and witnesses the performance twice or thrice in succession. The tricks were meant to be seen only once; and when they are no longer a novelty and cease to deceive, their effect is gone." Arthur's brief essay is an excellent supplement to what Alain says here.
Before Darwin and Freud, Schopenhauer in his 1851 masterpiece essay , "On the Sufferings of the World" said "He who lives to see two or three generations is like a man who sits some time in the conjurer's booth at a fair, and witnesses the performance twice or thrice in succession. The tricks were meant to be seen only once; and when they are no longer a novelty and cease to deceive, their effect is gone." Arthur's brief essay is an excellent supplement to what Alain says here.
27
The Schopenhauer quote is brilliant! A keeper -- thank you.
11
Also on point:
"When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life."
-- Samuel Johnson
"When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life."
-- Samuel Johnson
8
Psychologist, married 16 years, still " in Love" with my husband ( with some real moments of "in hate"thrown in there too!). I agree with what I see as some very profound truths echoed here. But I fought it. I found these to be painful but important lessons, that we both are still learning after 20 years by the way. And yes we were deeply in love then. And we are now too. But in a deeper way that includes many painful moments and joyful ones too of course, over two decades. Thank you for this.
17
This article seems to assume that we have to get married. We don't. You find someone you like, fine. Be with them but don't get married. If they insist you get married leave. According to this story you were going to be miserable anyway. So why sign a contract with the state saying you will pay out big when the inevitable happens and you want out.
17
The romance usually ends, sooner than expected. What should be left is friendship and companionship. Should be.
11
Bravo!
6
Ignores the structural issues and context of patriarchy, i.e., unequal power; makes marriage simply the negotiations of two individuals.
12
While those issues are real, I dispute that they are a key factor in every marriage or romantic partnership.
My husband is one of the least patriarchal males I've ever known. I would have to strain really hard to find ways in which I have been repressed, controlled, limited or lessened by him or his maleness. And then I would just be making stuff up.
My husband is one of the least patriarchal males I've ever known. I would have to strain really hard to find ways in which I have been repressed, controlled, limited or lessened by him or his maleness. And then I would just be making stuff up.
14
Dear People in a tizzy, the talented Mr de Botton writes (usually) with great humor and tongue firmly in cheek. It's one of his gifts. Relax....
13
I hate these kind of syrupy fact-free interpretations and analysis. The author implies that EVERY marriage is doomed yet facts say 50% of them are. I know and have worked with many, many people from India and Sri Lanka and they have ALL had arranged marriages--and they fail at the same 50% rate. One friend, whose 1st arranged marriage failed, he and the lady whom he was interested in had their families arrange both their 2nd marriages, and they have been happy for years now.
My marriage is 29 years long, and I cannot imagine life without her. Her parents and mine had marriages that lasted until death. And I know many, many divorced people as well.
Compatibility doesn't mean you both like ice hockey or crocheting doilies, or singing songs from treacly Broadway musicals together. It means you each like in the other for the things you each like about yourselves. It means you share a common moral code, that basic idea of right and wrong that establishes your morals and ethics. It means when you fight, you fight fairly and with the goal of resolving a problem--through understanding and compromise, not one giving in. It means trust, at the deepest level, a trust you will never betray, because you share that fundamental moral code. Plus, of course, you really have to enjoy each other.
Is it easy? Of course not. Some are successful early, some in mid-life. One friend was nearly 60 when he met the woman he always hoped to marry. And they ARE happy now.
My marriage is 29 years long, and I cannot imagine life without her. Her parents and mine had marriages that lasted until death. And I know many, many divorced people as well.
Compatibility doesn't mean you both like ice hockey or crocheting doilies, or singing songs from treacly Broadway musicals together. It means you each like in the other for the things you each like about yourselves. It means you share a common moral code, that basic idea of right and wrong that establishes your morals and ethics. It means when you fight, you fight fairly and with the goal of resolving a problem--through understanding and compromise, not one giving in. It means trust, at the deepest level, a trust you will never betray, because you share that fundamental moral code. Plus, of course, you really have to enjoy each other.
Is it easy? Of course not. Some are successful early, some in mid-life. One friend was nearly 60 when he met the woman he always hoped to marry. And they ARE happy now.
21
I've only been married once and have three beautiful kids from that union. However, now that those kids are grown and gone, I've been back on the dating scene for the past few years...mostly via online dating sites. Perhaps one reason I haven't found the right Him yet is because I am very precise about the kind of man I am looking for.
My friends have tried to convince me to lower my standards, but I have resisted. The reason I i am sticking to my standards is because I am not desperate to find that man. While the single life can be lonely at times, for the most part, I enjoy my solitude. I love reading and writing and attending culturally-rich events. I don't seem to have enough time in the day to accomplish all the things I would like to accomplish.
It would take a wholesome man, intelligent and intellectually-challenging man to get my attention. I guess you could say I'm "sepio-sexual." I'm willing to wait for that man...even at this ripe age of 58. No hurries...
My friends have tried to convince me to lower my standards, but I have resisted. The reason I i am sticking to my standards is because I am not desperate to find that man. While the single life can be lonely at times, for the most part, I enjoy my solitude. I love reading and writing and attending culturally-rich events. I don't seem to have enough time in the day to accomplish all the things I would like to accomplish.
It would take a wholesome man, intelligent and intellectually-challenging man to get my attention. I guess you could say I'm "sepio-sexual." I'm willing to wait for that man...even at this ripe age of 58. No hurries...
37
Bunch of drivel, but the topic is of interest.
Women often marry down, they marry some pathetic, helpless or dysfunctional man because they have a nurturing hormone oxytocin which results in them marrying losers. Why do women send cards to prisoners? Why do young girls in high school date the rebel with bad grades with a motorcycle instead of the class president who has a job and bought his own car? As the young girlfriend of Charles Manson said: "This is what I was born for." An Ivy League school advisor urged young women to marry while in school where they will find the men with the best incomes. Why did she have to point out the obvious? This is the driving factor behind marriages -- biology. Once married the loser male has time to devote to his spouse but can't gain her respect because he can't satisfy her need for financial security. In the extreme example, she often ends up being the bread winner and controls the check book. He ends up feeling he is losing her and slaps her and tells her to stop dressing to attract men. She blames herself. She ends up in a battered women's home and he in jail. Yet nobody is helping young people, particularly women, figure this out.
Women often marry down, they marry some pathetic, helpless or dysfunctional man because they have a nurturing hormone oxytocin which results in them marrying losers. Why do women send cards to prisoners? Why do young girls in high school date the rebel with bad grades with a motorcycle instead of the class president who has a job and bought his own car? As the young girlfriend of Charles Manson said: "This is what I was born for." An Ivy League school advisor urged young women to marry while in school where they will find the men with the best incomes. Why did she have to point out the obvious? This is the driving factor behind marriages -- biology. Once married the loser male has time to devote to his spouse but can't gain her respect because he can't satisfy her need for financial security. In the extreme example, she often ends up being the bread winner and controls the check book. He ends up feeling he is losing her and slaps her and tells her to stop dressing to attract men. She blames herself. She ends up in a battered women's home and he in jail. Yet nobody is helping young people, particularly women, figure this out.
13
Consider whether this is pure projection.
28
Excellent and provocative read. Initial passion morphs into compassion to sustain a long term relationship. A dopamine filled brain cannot imagine the future hard work and complexities of managing the difficulties of daily life. Anyone clinging to the myth that you'll always hold onto the that romantic phase in your initial lives together, is embarking on a life of disappointment and frustration. The goal is never to find someone who is exceptionally similar to you. As the sociologist John Gottman notes, success in a marriage is achieved when two people can learn to respect, talk about and navigate their differences. And, as the author notes, add some humor, and share from the depths of your soul. Be known to each other. It's hard work, but so worth it.
7
Was truly an excellent article. There might be another way of looking at this rather than "the philosophy of pessimism". The real question is we're driven by years of genetics, Natural selection. We are drawn to mating with DNA that is the opposite of ours.. Another way of looking at it is it would be boring to be with someone that had all the same interest. We're wired to grow, if we don't we figure out ways to be self destructive. So rather that look at relationships from a point of pessimism, maybe it's not only about "Gottman's team calls 'the generosity factor', additionally realizing that at very basic level were are drawn to someone who is different from us. The $20000 question is how do we find that person and develop that "happy" balance.
6
I always told my kids, if you are going to have an argument with your significant other, just remember once words come out of your mouth - you can't put them back in. Think before you say something your partner will remember for the rest of your lives. Is it what you truly wanted to say or emotions talking?
24
My husband and I have been together for over 20 years with never a cross word. From the outside, we appear totally dissimilar. I'm a product of old WASP gentry. He is a black East Village type artist. it looks like Che Guevara living with Martha Stewart. People find it hard to believe we've never had an argument. The explanation is simple. We have never tried to change each other. I didn't fall in love with him because I thought he "had potential' or "could be made into something." He already was something; a kind, honest, funny, caring person who also has a remarkable ability to simply ignore me when I become annoying, opinionated or selfish. I give him the lion's share of the credit for a long and happy marriage. When people ask me the secret to a good long-term relationship, I usually say "in a word - deafness."
38
Life is tough, full of hard choices, frightening times, and even tragedies. When you go through them with someone who supports you and you her, it forms a deep, deep bond. If you can travel through life and have fun together on top of all that, you've got something special. My wife and I have met many couples in our earlier years who "never had cross words". They are ALL divorced! You've got to have someone to fight it out with. Life isn't for sissies.
22
Several thoughts occur:
In previous times, until death do us part, only meant about 20 to 30 years because one of the spouses was going to die in childbirth, from an infection, or an occupational accident.
We are easily distracted, selfish, and stubborn. We have inherited social norms which have intrinsically become part of our psyches even though they may be incompatible with our personalities and intentions.
With the continuing expansion of population our options have increased dramatically and too often we rush into a relationship which, in retrospect, we perhaps should have been more cautious about.
An elder physician once told me that marriage isn't a 50/50 arrangement, it is 90/10 for each partner and my response was, why does it have to be so difficult, leading to the question, why do we have to subjugate our personalities to those with whom we spend a substantial, if not the most, amount of time?
It is one thing to compromise but when it comes to attempting to change other people's personalities to satisfy our own desires, we should realize that the prospects are pretty slim.
In previous times, until death do us part, only meant about 20 to 30 years because one of the spouses was going to die in childbirth, from an infection, or an occupational accident.
We are easily distracted, selfish, and stubborn. We have inherited social norms which have intrinsically become part of our psyches even though they may be incompatible with our personalities and intentions.
With the continuing expansion of population our options have increased dramatically and too often we rush into a relationship which, in retrospect, we perhaps should have been more cautious about.
An elder physician once told me that marriage isn't a 50/50 arrangement, it is 90/10 for each partner and my response was, why does it have to be so difficult, leading to the question, why do we have to subjugate our personalities to those with whom we spend a substantial, if not the most, amount of time?
It is one thing to compromise but when it comes to attempting to change other people's personalities to satisfy our own desires, we should realize that the prospects are pretty slim.
5
Relax, brides and grooms.
Methinks thou protest too much.
Know thyself. That's all.
Methinks thou protest too much.
Know thyself. That's all.
6
If only!
5
I'm unsure as to the motives of attempting to encapsulate/decodify what is an unfathomably complex subject - human relationships. This felt, at best, an embarrassing, personal journaling exercise. Perhaps "we" is you? Sorry to be rude...
10
agreed. all relationships are 50/50. you acquiesce only to the degree that they allow, and vice versa.
the 50/50 rule is something I figured out a long time ago. works for business relationships too.
the author used "we" but should have used "I"
the 50/50 rule is something I figured out a long time ago. works for business relationships too.
the author used "we" but should have used "I"
4
Brilliant. Now if only I could get my wife to be interested in reading this, and talking about it with me, maybe we could save the marriage.
20
"A case of identifying which particular kind of suffering we'd most like to sacrifice ourselves for?" Geez, I'd rather share a beer with Dick Cheney, Donald Trump or Mitch McConnell than with this little ray of op-ed sunshine!
Roughly fifty years ago, I decided to marry because my future spouse owned a really nice stereo system after which I shamelessly lusted. The marriage worked out pretty well. We're still together. Never a cross word, except occasionally about music selection.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Roughly fifty years ago, I decided to marry because my future spouse owned a really nice stereo system after which I shamelessly lusted. The marriage worked out pretty well. We're still together. Never a cross word, except occasionally about music selection.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
13
Little is said about commitment. In the long run love is not a hormone induced feeling but a rational decision and commitment to care for, respect, and cherish another person. Sure, compatibility, sex, and romance help. But in the end it is commitment that makes a successful, happy marriage.
309
Love is a choice we nake every day.
10
M. de Botton uses the word "we" throughout this article. Is this a reference to his experience with (a) marital partner(s)? Is it a reference to some kind of survey or research (not mentioned in the article) to support his theses? Or, more likely, is it just a way to make his personal musings seem more authoritative and general?
12
When the average lifespan was 60 or so, getting married "for life" in your twenties made perfect sense. It got you through the reproductive years plus child raising plus some to spare. However, with the average lifespan continuing to increase (now around 70-80s, some 90s), are we really meant to spent 50-70 years with one person? I'm very dubious. The rising tide of secularism plus the explosion of information and options in our complex world often leads (hopefully) to continual personal growth, multiple careers and increasing personal evolution and changing perspectives. Perhaps it is time to recognize that the traditional institution of (lifetime) marriage is obsolete, that it no longer serves the purpose for which it was intended. Solution: have individuals make 7-to-10 year long "marriage contracts" to be renewable if desired. This does not nullify the need to learn to love and communicate effectively but it does recognize that we have entered another era. It will remove the stigma of divorce as a "personal failure" instead recognizing that some relationships were never meant to last forever but were nonetheless valuable in their own right as a step towards growth. Our Old World romanticism regarding marriage is killing us with its unrealistic standards. Better to face reality and modify our expectations. There will be less pressure all around.
25
How sad for you that your experiences have led you to be such a pessimist (unless this was all tongue in cheek). Romanticism does not mean perfectionism, but it does mean an excitement and love that I believe many people find and base their marriages upon. Of course, any long term commitment requires work, but optimism and a "we're in this together" attitude make can make that a lifelong labor of love. As we celebrate our 37th anniversary, I know I married the right person, and I know she feels the same. It's a great feeling. I hope you experience it someday.
20
In the 1960's I attended a lecture by Margaret Mead who said she thought the institution of marriage was based on a 2000 year old society where people married in their early teens, produced children to preserve the tribe and died by their mid thirties. She mentioned three stages of what she thought might be a contemporary relationship as being romantic, child bearing and companionship and thought that the current institution of marriage is wrong in that expects that couple would be well suited to last through all three stages together. From my own experience and observation it seems that people evolve and change moving in different direction and at different speeds. What was a perfect relationship at one point may not suit the needs of two people ten, twenty years later. Couples moving in approximately the same direction at approximately the same speed and may be the lucky ones.
31
I love New York Times lifestyle articles on Sunday. "Darling, put down that bagel, and check out this article on marriage. The author writes we marry in haste and repent at leisure."
What fascinating other fascinating ways can they write "rain is wet?" Find out next Sunday!
What fascinating other fascinating ways can they write "rain is wet?" Find out next Sunday!
17
Romantic relatinships are complicated. This article brought up many interesting feeling for me about my past marriage and relatinships. Reading it reminded me of a joke about Unitarian Universalists. When the Unitarian dies they are afforded a choice: Going to heaven, or going to a discussion about heaven. They choose the discussion, because it's more interesting - or less boring. In my 60s, I'm coming to better appreciate how I have conducted my romantic/social mainly around avoiding lonelyness and boredom. This led to a lot of conflict ! The other big factor in my choice of a mate that this piece was timing. Very early, I almost subconscoiusly decided what year I should get married, and whoever I was with at that time got unlucky !
7
Pessimism does have advantages over optimism. One being you aren't disappointed when things go wrong (you knew they would), and thus have more opportunities to be pleasantly surprised when they do.
As for being crazy, it's one of those things that should be made a mandatory module in school classrooms, starting in junior high and repeated every other semester. This might not improve the longevity or quality of marriages, but a little sanity about lunacy couldn't hurt.
As for being crazy, it's one of those things that should be made a mandatory module in school classrooms, starting in junior high and repeated every other semester. This might not improve the longevity or quality of marriages, but a little sanity about lunacy couldn't hurt.
5
There is no right or wrong spouse once two people have made the commitment to spend the rest of their lives together in marriage. At that point, it becomes a matter of putting your spouse first, knowing what is important to your spouse and doing what you can to make it happen, compromising reasonably and intelligently when the inevitable conflicts arise, and affirming to your spouse regularly and sincerely your strong feelings of love and affection.
One very important rule is never let a conflict exist for more than a day. Never go to sleep for the day with an unresolved conflict with your spouse, even if it is a tentative resolution. You have at least established a framework for its final resolution and demonstrated your willingness to get past it and move forward with love and respect for one another.
One very important rule is never let a conflict exist for more than a day. Never go to sleep for the day with an unresolved conflict with your spouse, even if it is a tentative resolution. You have at least established a framework for its final resolution and demonstrated your willingness to get past it and move forward with love and respect for one another.
5
Chemistry is key, but also the ability to create an important life for the other is most important. I married at the age of 25, which was the average age back in 1985; I divorced in 1991. I supported my ex through it all, although he never helped me create a creative life. I was living more of a life my parents had, although their marriage worked for 60 years.
Know oneself first, and yes, learning compassion and compatibility comes with experience. But love and support for one another is unselfish. Most people marry for 'what's in it for me'. We live in a shallow country influenced by fake celebrities, etc.
Know oneself first, and yes, learning compassion and compatibility comes with experience. But love and support for one another is unselfish. Most people marry for 'what's in it for me'. We live in a shallow country influenced by fake celebrities, etc.
8
I am lucky enough to have gotten married last weekend after seven years with the same woman, having started dating when we were 20 and 21.
Call me naive (I'm quite literally on my honeymoon right now) but I agree immensely with the large ideas of what's been written here.
To me, trust is the ingredient that gets you from the premise delivered in this article that imperfection is inevitable, to the "happy place."
I have to trust that no matter what my perception of my partner's actions might be (even and especially when I'm right about what those actions convey) they are rooted in good intentions for me, our relationship, or herself in the context of our relationship.
The other side of that trust is trusting her with my own crazy. I have to be able to share my inner workings and know that she will see it the same way, intended to improve our state.
My advice in this author's deal with the devil while searching for love is to maximize the trust you can find in another person. Sacrifice those pieces of the romanticized ideal and aim for the person you can confidently let inside and know they won't muck it all up :)
Call me naive (I'm quite literally on my honeymoon right now) but I agree immensely with the large ideas of what's been written here.
To me, trust is the ingredient that gets you from the premise delivered in this article that imperfection is inevitable, to the "happy place."
I have to trust that no matter what my perception of my partner's actions might be (even and especially when I'm right about what those actions convey) they are rooted in good intentions for me, our relationship, or herself in the context of our relationship.
The other side of that trust is trusting her with my own crazy. I have to be able to share my inner workings and know that she will see it the same way, intended to improve our state.
My advice in this author's deal with the devil while searching for love is to maximize the trust you can find in another person. Sacrifice those pieces of the romanticized ideal and aim for the person you can confidently let inside and know they won't muck it all up :)
8
My parents were married for 34 years until my father died from cancer. My mother cared for him until his last breath. Once, during one of my many teenage feuds with her, I asked him why he married her. He told me he thought she would be a good mother. He also told me you don't marry someone because you love them; you marry someone you believe to be a good person, and you learn to love them. His advice worked for me. And now I see that he couldn't have chosen a better mother for his kids.
14
Marriage is like buying a house, you did a few walk throughs, you committed all your money, but you really don't know what you have till you have been living there a few years.
20
My very wise grandmother advised, "There hasn't been a person made yet, that doesn't have faults. The trick is to find someone whose faults suit you."
13
best, most realistic writing on marriage ever. you find someone with shared 5 important values and make it work from there. I think marriage is a part time job. there are three entities in a marriage: you/him or her/and the two of you. 34 years and still working at it. Happily.
3
Years ago a friend said that none of the reasons he'd married his wife still applied. It's taken me a long time to understand his wisdom. Each new day of a committed relationship needs to begin with the recognition that both of us are new and different than we were the day before, and to discover anew why we are together now, today.
228
thanks for the brilliant title. i would add that I've escaped that fate, since I've remained single. I believe that marriage was invented when the average age was 30, and people would marry at 18-20: just enough time to have a few descendants. to pretend to love the same person for the rest of your life is today a cruel punishment.
8
This seriously is one of the best things I've read about relationships in a long time and certainly rings true after 16 years of marriage. I read On Love in my 20s and related to nearly every word. How perfect to read this gem from the same author 20 years later.
A young person cannot truly know all of his or her flaws at 20 or expect to know all of their partner's flaws. We change over time as life presents us with new challenges. Accepting the inherent imperfection of marriage will allow a couple to move forward rather than be stuck in the fairy tale if happily ever after.
A young person cannot truly know all of his or her flaws at 20 or expect to know all of their partner's flaws. We change over time as life presents us with new challenges. Accepting the inherent imperfection of marriage will allow a couple to move forward rather than be stuck in the fairy tale if happily ever after.
6
When I have the chance I tell young people who are getting married that their marriage doesn't start on their wedding day it starts the day they look at their spouse and say to themselves "what was I thinking!". Then you start the work of accepting the person you married, warts and all. I tell them to be kind. Try to put more importance on what you like/love about the person you married than on what you don't. No one is perfect!
14
For a good marriage, there are two things that matter, so it seems to me:
First, how a potential mate treats others is how he/she will eventually treat you. If they're a kind, generous, and honest person with other people, that's probably generally how'll they'll treat you. If they cheat, lie, and sneak, expect the same no matter how good they are to you while you're in the thrall of new love.
Second, and I say this from 39 years with my partner and counting, is that deep, abiding love requires a lot of work. Our habits are like deep ruts in the road that grab the wheels and steer our corse no matter how much we'd like to go in another direction. It requires that both partners recognize those ruts, because it takes both of you to shift corse. You have to learn to give up on the satisfaction of being aggrieved and being right and learn to laugh at the mud you're spattering as you make those ruts.
First, how a potential mate treats others is how he/she will eventually treat you. If they're a kind, generous, and honest person with other people, that's probably generally how'll they'll treat you. If they cheat, lie, and sneak, expect the same no matter how good they are to you while you're in the thrall of new love.
Second, and I say this from 39 years with my partner and counting, is that deep, abiding love requires a lot of work. Our habits are like deep ruts in the road that grab the wheels and steer our corse no matter how much we'd like to go in another direction. It requires that both partners recognize those ruts, because it takes both of you to shift corse. You have to learn to give up on the satisfaction of being aggrieved and being right and learn to laugh at the mud you're spattering as you make those ruts.
29
Over-written, but raises essential issues of temperamental compatibility...marriage seldom generates ecstasis, but mitigates involuntary solitude...the probabilistic life expectancies of the late 21st Century will drive serial alliances & polyamory, financed by the oft-bruited natal stipends & 'mincomes'...wise folk who expect little are never disappointed.
2
I googled the author and you must note that he himself seems never to have been married - perhaps this is an extended pep-talk to himself as he prepares to "take the plunge" and not be so cautious. It appears he has realized that there is no such thing as a perfect person (Erich Fromm - Art of Loving) - no perfect person except another who has also come to the same conclusion: if not, if the other is looking to you to be that perfect someone for him the marriage is still doomed...so the perfect marriage is between too imperfect beings ready to commit to each other as they are and what they might become... till death do us truly part
6
The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of. (But Pascal never married).
4
Not a philosophy of pessimism but a philosophy of realism.
As the article clearly states nobody is perfect and
nobody can fulfill all your needs. If that is who you
are looking for you will never find them.
You must accept your partner willingly and lovingly
as imperfect and learn to forgive their shortcomings
as they hopefully learn to forgive yours.
The idea is not to try to win but don't let yourself lose either.
Try to make things better for you and your partner in little ways
everyday and the big things will work themselves out eventually.
Be patient and understanding and never speak out of anger
if you can at all help it. If you do things right your life
together will not be perfect but it will be better for both of you.
As the article clearly states nobody is perfect and
nobody can fulfill all your needs. If that is who you
are looking for you will never find them.
You must accept your partner willingly and lovingly
as imperfect and learn to forgive their shortcomings
as they hopefully learn to forgive yours.
The idea is not to try to win but don't let yourself lose either.
Try to make things better for you and your partner in little ways
everyday and the big things will work themselves out eventually.
Be patient and understanding and never speak out of anger
if you can at all help it. If you do things right your life
together will not be perfect but it will be better for both of you.
8
Reading Mr. Botton, I am reminded that his approach as an author is not to be "right" or definitive, but to slow us down and get us thinking in new and fresh ways about the ordinary matters of life. It is spring time, romance is in the air, fools rush in, as the saying goes. Pessimism is proposed to counter-balance a prevailing and often unexamined optimism that characterizes blessed unions. I agree that Mr. Botton makes assertions that seem presumptive...but these too compel us to think and self-reflect. In his own way, Botton is a moralist, inviting us to examine our expectations before we contemplate "abandoning" the other in search of imagined greener pastures. Lurking beneath this stark assessment is humor, the perspective that comes from the dawning realization that maybe, just maybe, it isn't all about us.
5
Luckily I realized a long time ago that marriage isn't about marrying the right person although my wife of 40 years seemed compatable and we shared the same dream. It is about becoming the right person throughout marriage. That appears to be what the author has discovered as well, "compatability is an achievement of love". Life has a life of it's own. Love adapts.
10
I was married for 29 years and then we divorced. I think perhaps if I had read this then we could have worked things out.
11
Right-on, up to the point where we are admonished to remain in the marriage made for the wrong reasons.
After 50 minutes with a psychologist, I was told my "problem" was that I married an alcoholic, something not apparent to me because he was a covert drinker and a high-functioning professional. At an alanon meeting, the prevailing mood was that one stays with the alcoholic, mostly advanced by women who believed themselves economically dependent, as I did as well.
The choice I believed I faced was to live a demeaning life in a "wrong" marriage with an abusive alcoholic, or figure out how to become an adult in my mid-40s. It wasn't easy but it wasn't as frightening as I anticipated, just one foot in front of the other and not looking back.
Having interviewed several hundred middle-class women in India, I can't help concluding that there can be much to recommend arranged marriages where there exists relative economic equality between the 2 sets of parents.
After 50 minutes with a psychologist, I was told my "problem" was that I married an alcoholic, something not apparent to me because he was a covert drinker and a high-functioning professional. At an alanon meeting, the prevailing mood was that one stays with the alcoholic, mostly advanced by women who believed themselves economically dependent, as I did as well.
The choice I believed I faced was to live a demeaning life in a "wrong" marriage with an abusive alcoholic, or figure out how to become an adult in my mid-40s. It wasn't easy but it wasn't as frightening as I anticipated, just one foot in front of the other and not looking back.
Having interviewed several hundred middle-class women in India, I can't help concluding that there can be much to recommend arranged marriages where there exists relative economic equality between the 2 sets of parents.
12
I really appreciated this profound and enlightening article and discussion thereon. Am I biased in thinking I noticed a tendency in the men commenting that success in marriage was mostly a matter of chance and the woman more likely to suggest it was more a matter of effort?
8
How do you find 'her'? How do you know when you have found 'her'?
There is no class taught,, there is no book,,, for how I find words to describe how I feel,, are NOT your words to describe how I feel. So, simply speaking of it,, inevitably devolves to, "Well,, you know,," I used to think I did. But it has become too obvious to dismiss as decades have accumulated,, No, I don't know.
There is nothing,, simply nothing , that I would not give to find 'her'. There is nothing I have wanted more,, ever,, since I was a child,,, yet even now,, I learn more,,, but I still fail.
We will marry the wrong person because we , just, don't, know,,, and no one is trying to teach us how. I've lived my life,,, I wish I knew.
There is no class taught,, there is no book,,, for how I find words to describe how I feel,, are NOT your words to describe how I feel. So, simply speaking of it,, inevitably devolves to, "Well,, you know,," I used to think I did. But it has become too obvious to dismiss as decades have accumulated,, No, I don't know.
There is nothing,, simply nothing , that I would not give to find 'her'. There is nothing I have wanted more,, ever,, since I was a child,,, yet even now,, I learn more,,, but I still fail.
We will marry the wrong person because we , just, don't, know,,, and no one is trying to teach us how. I've lived my life,,, I wish I knew.
4
Wow! Any psychologists out there reading this piece must be having a field day about the author.
4
Taking a required course in my divorce called "Focus on Children," I learned an amazing fact. The U.S. divorce rate is more than 50%. If one remarries within three years after the first divorce, the divorce rate jumps to over 72%!
I recommend to all four of my children not to make my mistake. I dated for eight months and got married six months later. Learn who your partner is. Take a full three years. Live with them. Learn how to deal with decisions and difficulties together within those three years. Learn how to relax and laugh together. Learn how both sets of parents work or deal with each other. The fruit doesn't fall far from the tree.
I recommend to all four of my children not to make my mistake. I dated for eight months and got married six months later. Learn who your partner is. Take a full three years. Live with them. Learn how to deal with decisions and difficulties together within those three years. Learn how to relax and laugh together. Learn how both sets of parents work or deal with each other. The fruit doesn't fall far from the tree.
8
A false conclusion in the 1970s that half of all first marriages ended in divorce was based on the simple but completely wrong analysis of the marriage and divorce rates per 1,000 people in the United States. A similar abuse of statistical analysis led to the conclusion that 60 percent of all second marriages ended in divorce.
-- http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-myth-of-the-high-rate-of-divorce/
You need to do some more digging.
-- http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-myth-of-the-high-rate-of-divorce/
You need to do some more digging.
5
Married 20 years--after our third engagement in 8 years--with 4 very reasonable teenagers at home.
I've always told the kids that it doesn't matter if they laugh at my jokes; if their mom does then I'm alright.
So I realized very recently, after reflecting on our 20-year milestone, that a key to our successful marriage is that we don't try to make each other happy--that's impossible--we just try to make each other laugh. And the only way to do that is to listen.
I've always told the kids that it doesn't matter if they laugh at my jokes; if their mom does then I'm alright.
So I realized very recently, after reflecting on our 20-year milestone, that a key to our successful marriage is that we don't try to make each other happy--that's impossible--we just try to make each other laugh. And the only way to do that is to listen.
16
I met my wife four decades ago when I was 16 and she was 15. I was her first love and she was mine. Every year I write in her birthday card how I love her more than the year before. Every year, it is absolutely true. Why are we so compatible? No one knows and I really can't explain it but I simply can't imagine life without her. We grew up together as a couple and now we're growing old as one as well. The story where an elderly husband and wife passing within hours, holding each other's hand is my hope. I can't bear thought of the pain that I will cause her should I pass first and I know I can't bear the pain of losing her.
46
This quote comes from a friend who is an English teacher then teaching Romantic literature to high school kids. "What is lust?" Meghan "Lust is the first three weeks you are with someone before you realize how he chews his food". Bet she married well. I agree with the commentator who said this piece is fatuous.
10
Or, maybe society should scrap the institution of marriage, because in a majority of the cases, it just doesn't work.
5
"Choosing whom to commit ourselves to is merely a case of identifying which particular variety of suffering we would most like to sacrifice ourselves for."
Mm, boy. Can't wait. (And I like that "merely".)
Mm, boy. Can't wait. (And I like that "merely".)
13
Freud came to the same conclusions about a hundred years ago, just with different reasons. We tend not to know ourselves nor what we really need in an intimate relationship and end up finding someone who is "comfortable" for all the wrong reasons. Some people are just outright lucky and probably due to pure chance, avoid choosing a partner that will not work out as we had planned. Emptiness results. I'm convinced arranged marriages, not for gain, but rather for long term happiness, could be better chosen by those who know us best.
6
I often see people who get very frustrated because their spouse isn't the idealized romantic version that imagined. It is cruel to be constantly dissatisfied, and want to change another adult. Unless a spouse is addicted, or mentally unstable, we need to forgive, love, and care for them as we would expect the future spouses of our children to do with our children. History repeats itself. In christian marriages we make a promise to God, those that practice their faiths, respect that promise. My mother comes from a catholic family of 12 children. None are divorced. My father came from a family 7, they were non practicing, and all completely disfunctional. My experience is that a marriage has everything to do with how a person was raised.
4
There is a very large error here, made by the author, in his rather naive assumption that childhood is undoubtedly a safe, cozy experience of being cherished, acknowledged, accepted, cared for and loved. If only!!!!!
Many ill advised marriages are such for exactly the reason that one gets used to a certain flavor or abuse in childhood and unwittingly seeks a partner to continue and replicate that attitude, the one that is so familiar and known, even as it is destructive and toxic.
Many ill advised marriages are such for exactly the reason that one gets used to a certain flavor or abuse in childhood and unwittingly seeks a partner to continue and replicate that attitude, the one that is so familiar and known, even as it is destructive and toxic.
9
That's not what he's saying; he's saying WHATEVER our childhood experience was, even if it were of an imperfect love, a version of that is what will feel most "right" to us. Our definition of love is formed in childhood, for good or ill, and I think he's right.
13
“Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed.”
― Albert Einstein
― Albert Einstein
37
Conflict and betrayal cause marriages to fall apart. Then loss of trust. Ideally, the two partners will have learned who they are and what they need before marriage. Two broken people make for poor bedfellows. The long term marriages I have seen are the families and couples who wrap themselves in 'bubble wrap' as I like to tell my now engaged daughter. They don't let third parties into the relationship and they learn conflict management to steer through the very rough waters coming.
There will always be another person coming along like buses on a regular schedule who look better than the person you married But you don't know them really and it is better to work through issues with the one who has made a decision to love you in the best way they know how . You will have problems with anyone, they are included with every relationship.
Love is a decision. A decision to lock hands and fight against the roaring tides of life together.
There will always be another person coming along like buses on a regular schedule who look better than the person you married But you don't know them really and it is better to work through issues with the one who has made a decision to love you in the best way they know how . You will have problems with anyone, they are included with every relationship.
Love is a decision. A decision to lock hands and fight against the roaring tides of life together.
23
Not me. 45 years and counting. About 2/3 of my friends are married to their first wives and for periods of 35-50 years. Marry some one like yourself in education level and socioeconomic status. Run if your intended's parents are devoutly religious and you are from a different religion. Your in-law will always resent you and they will never let up harassing and criticizing you. As time passes they will poison your relationship with your spouse and children.
5
There are only 2 things wrong with this piece:
1. The author of the piece, Alain de Botton, is identified as a "novelist". But in fact he's much better known as a philosopher.
2. In any case, why publish an article on this subject by a *philosopher* or *novelist* than someone better-qualified to write on this subject, such as a behavioral scientist, e.g. sociologist, psychologist?
1. The author of the piece, Alain de Botton, is identified as a "novelist". But in fact he's much better known as a philosopher.
2. In any case, why publish an article on this subject by a *philosopher* or *novelist* than someone better-qualified to write on this subject, such as a behavioral scientist, e.g. sociologist, psychologist?
5
Great article. Well written.
Christianity has saved my marriage. I could only be married 13 years to a girl with four kids and a long education who believed in forgiveness and a non-self focus. Many of the doctrines taught in my Mormon faith are the antidotes to an unfulfilling marriage. I like this quote by Gordon B. Hinckley:
“I am satisfied that if we would look for the virtues in one another and not the vices, there would be much more of happiness in the homes of our people. There would be far less of divorce, much less of infidelity, much less of anger and rancor and quarreling. There would be more of forgiveness, more of love, more of peace, more of happiness...” Gordon B. Hinckley
Christianity has saved my marriage. I could only be married 13 years to a girl with four kids and a long education who believed in forgiveness and a non-self focus. Many of the doctrines taught in my Mormon faith are the antidotes to an unfulfilling marriage. I like this quote by Gordon B. Hinckley:
“I am satisfied that if we would look for the virtues in one another and not the vices, there would be much more of happiness in the homes of our people. There would be far less of divorce, much less of infidelity, much less of anger and rancor and quarreling. There would be more of forgiveness, more of love, more of peace, more of happiness...” Gordon B. Hinckley
4
The author seems to be saying that no one should expect to be happily married. Marriage is at best a compromise and an acceptance of the other's many shortcomings. Romantic love doesn't hold a marriage together.
I don't think this is correct. I think the best marriages are those where two people fall hard and fast in love, especially in their teens and twenties. Later on people start accumulating all kinds of poisonous baggage and cynicism which ultimately dooms the relationships.
I don't think this is correct. I think the best marriages are those where two people fall hard and fast in love, especially in their teens and twenties. Later on people start accumulating all kinds of poisonous baggage and cynicism which ultimately dooms the relationships.
7
People who marry young nowadays are less likely to stay married, actually.
3
"Marriage is a wonderful institution. But who wants to live in an institution?"
-- Groucho Marx
-- Groucho Marx
30
My marriage was a disaster that lasted 20 years. I've been single for many more. When I see the couples who have survived 40 or more years of living together and seem quite happy with their choice, there is a twinge of regret. But then I realize that none of the men would ever have interested me and simple, middle class marriage was not my cup of tea. The average survivor of a life long marriage is just that, a survivor. Sometimes there is a need for escape, no matter the risks.
15
At the heart of any great mystery is, well, a heart. Our own is unknowable; that of another is even more so.
To complement Mr. de Botton's insightful piece, I offer the following quoted directly from Saul Bellow's novel "More Die of Heartbreak." For what it's worth, these words restored some order to life after my wife told me that she had "a gut feeling" she had to return to her first husband. The woman I'd come to know for 7 years and had married just months before would, of course, "never" have said such a thing. But then that's the whole point: we'd both married strangers . . .
"All those mad men and mad women sharing beds. Two psychopaths under one quilt. Do you ever know who is lying beside you, the thoughts behind the screen of "consideration"? A flick of the thermostat and the warmth of love explodes, a bomb of flame that cremates you. As you float away from your ashes into the etheric world, don't be surprised to hear sobs of grief from your destroyer."
Before I'd read this, I thought that the madness into which I had fallen had been custom-made. Learning that I'd fallen on countless others who'd come before and of countless others likely to come after, such madness had been rendered universal; I was no longer alone.
Laced with bias as we are, apparently it's human nature to be more informed about the nature of our pets than we are about the nature of ourselves. We're mostly deaf, dumb, and blind. Couples who stay together must be grateful.
To complement Mr. de Botton's insightful piece, I offer the following quoted directly from Saul Bellow's novel "More Die of Heartbreak." For what it's worth, these words restored some order to life after my wife told me that she had "a gut feeling" she had to return to her first husband. The woman I'd come to know for 7 years and had married just months before would, of course, "never" have said such a thing. But then that's the whole point: we'd both married strangers . . .
"All those mad men and mad women sharing beds. Two psychopaths under one quilt. Do you ever know who is lying beside you, the thoughts behind the screen of "consideration"? A flick of the thermostat and the warmth of love explodes, a bomb of flame that cremates you. As you float away from your ashes into the etheric world, don't be surprised to hear sobs of grief from your destroyer."
Before I'd read this, I thought that the madness into which I had fallen had been custom-made. Learning that I'd fallen on countless others who'd come before and of countless others likely to come after, such madness had been rendered universal; I was no longer alone.
Laced with bias as we are, apparently it's human nature to be more informed about the nature of our pets than we are about the nature of ourselves. We're mostly deaf, dumb, and blind. Couples who stay together must be grateful.
8
After a lifetime of failed serial monogamous relationships that were all less than 100% perfect I have come to understand that the best we can hope for is the 85% perfect marriage. Expecting perfection and getting perfection is a dream promoted by those who believe in fairy tales.
4
Is it mere coincidence that this article is published on Mother's Day (at least in parts of Europe, Africa and the Caribbean)?
2
No one is entitled to the perfect partner. The author didn't state that explicitly but maybe by owning up to flaws. A sense of being entitled to a romantic marriage that runs on auto pilot seems more common than not.
3
My parents married for life. My husband's parents married for life. My husband and I are 30 years married, after living together for 7. Hate to say, but I think you can only do this if you have seen it done. For what it's worth, here's the waiter rule: watch how your date treats a waiter. That's how they'll treat you 6 months plus down the road. And for a first date, go to the zoo. Not a movie, which manipulates both of you and you can't talk. Not dinner, where the examination and play acting is intense. A slow walk around a zoo will show you how your date thinks about (helpless) animals, and whether they talk about ideas, people or things, and how much they talk, and whether they're kind or mocking. Good luck; see you in 30 more.
101
Great advice. Add to that: before marriage, go in a trip to a country you both have never been (and preferably don't speak the language) and plan some activities a bit outside your comfort zones. Forces you to rely on each other, communicate, navigate, share finances and budget, under a bit of pressure. Gives each of you an opportunity to see how the other reacts (controlling or compromising, gets frustrated easily or rolls with it) and how you work together (or not) under stress.
12
Not a fan of zoos...I'd probably never go out with someone who wanted to go to a zoo on a first date, so you've narrowed the field quite efficiently right from the get-go.
4
I appreciated this article. It seems that the marital relationship is often the main source of support for many, as we are living in a more disconnected way from others (unless perhaps you attend church regularly, which does not appeal to ma ny). I do think that our expectations are fueled by our societal context and are highly unrealistic, yet we end up being caught up in them despite how aware we imagine that we are. Kindness seems such a difficult attitude to maintain in a marriage with all of the demands that are placed on it. I do like the approach of ignoring what one doesn't like...I'll give it a try combined with observing my irritation, breathing, and not reacting.
8
Actually, through most of history, and especially in the paleolithic pre-history, people did not get married. Marriage came about once people could accumulate wealth. Made sure that wealth stayed with the "right" people.
The vast majority of people just had sex, or started staying together to the (maybe) exclusion of others. But insofar as ceremony and larger meanings, not so much.
The vast majority of people just had sex, or started staying together to the (maybe) exclusion of others. But insofar as ceremony and larger meanings, not so much.
7
Query whether there is too much emphasis on marriage at the expense of the relationship. Because our society is overly focused on marriage as a great achievement, and builds in financial rewards for such achievement, it becomes the desired result. If all the effort that went into wedding planning was instead channelled into thinking about how to enjoy and strengthen one's relationship daily, when marriage came along (if so chosen), it would have a greater chance of working.
8
God. What a depressing article. And. Every word is true.
12
Entertaining and equally insightful piece. I'm so happy for those who were fortunate enough to have the blessing of finding the "right" person early on. And I empathize with those who had to re-try more than once.
Relationships are complex and personal. Trying to find and build the right relationship for us can sometimes/oftentimes/never be a painful process. To those who have found happiness, I ask that you be a little more patient if not sympathetic to those of "us" who were not so lucky as you. Maybe for some of "us", asking the question "So how are you crazy?" is a workable tactic lol. While asking this question out loud is funny, I personally think the philosophy behind it makes sense.
I don't think the author meant to establish universality about any of his ideas and even if he did, let us remember that this is an OPINION piece. Therefore, my humble opinion is that the key to happiness is how we negotiate the differences between ourselves and our significant others, that compromise we hear so much about.
Relationships are complex and personal. Trying to find and build the right relationship for us can sometimes/oftentimes/never be a painful process. To those who have found happiness, I ask that you be a little more patient if not sympathetic to those of "us" who were not so lucky as you. Maybe for some of "us", asking the question "So how are you crazy?" is a workable tactic lol. While asking this question out loud is funny, I personally think the philosophy behind it makes sense.
I don't think the author meant to establish universality about any of his ideas and even if he did, let us remember that this is an OPINION piece. Therefore, my humble opinion is that the key to happiness is how we negotiate the differences between ourselves and our significant others, that compromise we hear so much about.
8
Groucho Marks, to a young man who wanted a happy marriage:
"You only have to remember two things-- keep a closed mouth and an open wallet"
Worked for me for 44 years, 4 kids and 6 grands.
"You only have to remember two things-- keep a closed mouth and an open wallet"
Worked for me for 44 years, 4 kids and 6 grands.
3
What no one mentions is how useful the traditional patterns of courtship were by displacing whims and bars with mature structures. Slow decorous movement from groups, to sitting a talking, to letters/poems/some version of deeper emotional expression, and simmering attraction. Of course, this could go astray (Pride and Prejudice!) Yes, probably not going to return.
Someone I know slept with dates on the first date "because you have to start somewhere". Guess it works for some.
Someone I know slept with dates on the first date "because you have to start somewhere". Guess it works for some.
1
de Botton could have covered his take on marriage in five words: Nobody knows anything. Good luck!
9
Some kid in 5th grade once wrote an answer:"In the US one person gets married to one person and they live together for their whole lives. This is called monotony."
15
It does not matter how much you investigate nor how many questions both of you ask nor how long the both of you lived together before the expensive wedding nor if your parents loved or hated the significant other...in the end it is just luck...the roll of the dice..
7
We all make mistakes, or so the author opines. I suppose he's correct in many if not most cases. My parent's marriage defied the odds every day of their married life, the key being selflessness. A different time, different people. If the major premise of this piece is correct, then in this day and age a second or third marriage has a better shot at success because of lowered expectations, No?
There has been so so much written of late about the institution of marriage. All we know of late is, marriage is being delayed by the young, and 50% of marriages end in divorce, as for many, divorce is financially possible. The percentages we don't have access to is, the % of couples who remain in a marriage because of their children. Then there is another % who don't want to bust up an estate, for one reason or another. I was a child of The greatest generation. Most of my friends parents had unsettled home lives, of bickering, or abusive parents to each other Women had to hang as few worked outside the home. Then as a Catholic we were taught to re-produce, marriage was the only rule of thumb. Point being the odds of two people, kids, a career, and as people change , doesn't provide very good odds. I shake my head when I attend a wedding, and all the fantasy on display. Reminds me of Hollywood.
5
And yet we abhor the single person like we're all aboard Noah's Ark!
6
Marriage is being delayed by women because they wish to focus on their careers. Apparently a cubicle job, a spotless and sterile co-op, and a leased car offer more satisfaction that a loving husband and adoring children.
Men are delaying or avoiding marriage altogether because family law and government policies make marriage an entirely losing proposition.
Once women stop feeling required to work like men, and once men are no longer a legal underclass in marital law, you'll see marriage and nuclear families - the bedrock of free, healthy, stable societies - return to wide popularity.
Men are delaying or avoiding marriage altogether because family law and government policies make marriage an entirely losing proposition.
Once women stop feeling required to work like men, and once men are no longer a legal underclass in marital law, you'll see marriage and nuclear families - the bedrock of free, healthy, stable societies - return to wide popularity.
4
Not sure one ever gets that adoring children bit. Your job is to raise them, not befriend them. Their job is to rebel with some minimal kindness.
9
The last four paragraphs were the most moving, insightful parts of this article. The soulmate ideal is harmful, and although one might appreciate the sentiment, changes in our lives, the practical needs of living, and imperfect nature of our evolving interests needs to adapt. Yes, we need to continually strive for compatibility and agreement, and when we can't, find acceptance of our differences, and maybe our complementarity.
6
Not sure if that still explains all the married men on dating websites, they do not want to meet "just yet", they want to chat....
2
What about all those married women? Don't they count?
3
I'm not interested in women but you can do your own research.
1
I agree completely.
2
People call me a romantic and it is essentially true. Nor, do I expect that to ever change. My wife and I just celebrated 32 years of marriage, this weekend.
My only advice is to follow your heart and marry for love. To do that, though, you must truly know what is in your heart. That is not a trivial task...
My only advice is to follow your heart and marry for love. To do that, though, you must truly know what is in your heart. That is not a trivial task...
5
This could have been summed up in one sentence.....
"Marriage is work!"
Growing up in the 50s and 60s, TV and romantic comedies showed us the perfect couples and their children. (with the exception of "The Honeymooners" whose content made it iconic.) If you grew up in a family where the mom and dad fought all the time, you yearned for that lifestyle and really thought it could exist. (I wanted to live like the Andersons in "Father Knows Best".) And when men don't live up to that expectation, you are either stuck in a bad marriage or remain single.
Later in life we found out that "Kitten" and other actresses like Patty Duke were abused in real life. Hollywood hid the realities from us.
But let us remember there are many good marriages that stand the test of time. Most will tell you it takes work.
"Marriage is work!"
Growing up in the 50s and 60s, TV and romantic comedies showed us the perfect couples and their children. (with the exception of "The Honeymooners" whose content made it iconic.) If you grew up in a family where the mom and dad fought all the time, you yearned for that lifestyle and really thought it could exist. (I wanted to live like the Andersons in "Father Knows Best".) And when men don't live up to that expectation, you are either stuck in a bad marriage or remain single.
Later in life we found out that "Kitten" and other actresses like Patty Duke were abused in real life. Hollywood hid the realities from us.
But let us remember there are many good marriages that stand the test of time. Most will tell you it takes work.
9
Marital fidelity for life goes against one of the strongest laws of species survival, genetic diversity. A year of courtship. A year of pregnancy. Three years until the infant is weaned. A year of squabbles. And the search of new genetic material resumes. Voila, we are very near the average survival rate of a marriage.
Perhaps we should listen to our biological sirens.
Perhaps we should listen to our biological sirens.
9
This kind of thinking applies more to males and two females in general. For obvious reasons.
My husband and I met in group therapy. We knew each other's complex emotional issues before we knew each other's name. After 21 years, we still laugh at our great good fortune.
14
"Compatibility is an achievement of love; it must not be its pre-condition." I strongly disagree based on experience. Without compatibility, a relationship will be eaten away, leaving only love, which in the end is not enough to save a marriage.
8
The modern day interpretation of marriage as being a union based on feeling rather than utility actually brings into question the need for the institution at all. I feel more "married" to my partner of over a decade, a man with whom I feel completely aligned, than I ever did years ago when I was legally, traditionally married to my (now) ex-husband. In my opinion, a great "marriage" happens when two people have compassion and empathy for each other above all else...making the good things even better and the bad things not so bad. So, when most legal rights can be otherwise exchanged in contract form on their own, why do we need the government to "approve" our feelings and private matters of the heart?
11
I have only one quibble with this piece. A tragic view of marriage is just he flip side of a romantic one ("And then he betrayed me!" "She broke my heart!" "He wasn't the man I thought he was!").
A comic view is radically different. ("We planned our funerals before we planned our wedding." "We decided we might as well have a threesome." "We could no longer afford to eat out, so we started making our own peanut butter.")
For a truly comic (and touching) view, see today's Modern Love.
Romantic types love tragedy. Comic types love reality.
A comic view is radically different. ("We planned our funerals before we planned our wedding." "We decided we might as well have a threesome." "We could no longer afford to eat out, so we started making our own peanut butter.")
For a truly comic (and touching) view, see today's Modern Love.
Romantic types love tragedy. Comic types love reality.
15
I kind of feel like the headline for the article should have been "Why women always marry the wrong man" at least that's the feeling I got by reading this and from the illustration above. Nonetheless, it was a good article and I always enjoy reading these types of things.
My take on this is for men is that I always suggest you partner up with women from a different country. Yes, there are often cultural disadvantages, and often there can be severe learning curves when it comes to family, since family is something most people still take serious outside our overly liberal America. But at the end of the day, there is still no greater positive than the fact that most women from outside the U.S. still look at man for being a man and expect as much. It's be about 15 years since I've even considered having a personal relationship with an American woman and my life has grown better from it. I also now have a far greater understanding of our world from learning about different people, traveling and cultures. And for the record, many of these women from other countries are educated, just like American women, but there major difference is what is being taught or rather, how it is interpreted.
My take on this is for men is that I always suggest you partner up with women from a different country. Yes, there are often cultural disadvantages, and often there can be severe learning curves when it comes to family, since family is something most people still take serious outside our overly liberal America. But at the end of the day, there is still no greater positive than the fact that most women from outside the U.S. still look at man for being a man and expect as much. It's be about 15 years since I've even considered having a personal relationship with an American woman and my life has grown better from it. I also now have a far greater understanding of our world from learning about different people, traveling and cultures. And for the record, many of these women from other countries are educated, just like American women, but there major difference is what is being taught or rather, how it is interpreted.
4
Married 22 years. Divorced (very happily) for 18 years.
RESPECT, for self and other, is key.
RESPECT, for self and other, is key.
7
I agree that fiction on the page and on the screen is dangerous to pattern life upon. You see yourself as the protagonist in your own story but to others you play a supporting role (or maybe are just an extra). Stories are controlled by an author. Life has no overlord to mete out just deserts, tidy up the loose ends or construct a happy ending. Basing your expectations for life on stories is asking for disappointment. Thank you, Alain de Botton, for saying what's been on my mind.
7
A more serious (but by no means wiser) response to this article:
1. We only think we are choosing. It's our genes, along with our social upbringing along with the prejudices we picked up, that are making the decision.
2. If you're going to simply reduce the chances of a disastrous marriage, not eliminate it (well, isn't that worth something) try and study her mother (or his father). Imagine how you would feel living with her/him 20 years from now. If you can't stand the idea, make a graceful exit, now.
3. Probably the two points above, and this article too, are pointless. We're going to do what we're gonna do. All of this is just amusing, retrospective patter and contemplation. (Which it is, in my case; Well, I am also writing a novel about my marriage, and so the subject is both sad and funny--but only in retrospect.)
1. We only think we are choosing. It's our genes, along with our social upbringing along with the prejudices we picked up, that are making the decision.
2. If you're going to simply reduce the chances of a disastrous marriage, not eliminate it (well, isn't that worth something) try and study her mother (or his father). Imagine how you would feel living with her/him 20 years from now. If you can't stand the idea, make a graceful exit, now.
3. Probably the two points above, and this article too, are pointless. We're going to do what we're gonna do. All of this is just amusing, retrospective patter and contemplation. (Which it is, in my case; Well, I am also writing a novel about my marriage, and so the subject is both sad and funny--but only in retrospect.)
12
You are so correct about the "check out the mother/father". That would have saved us a lot of anguish along the way. I've been married 49 years, for better and for worse; had I done that I still would have married the same man but would have done so with my eyes wide open and much more clarity of the future.
121
A better idea than imagining that your future spouse will turn into his or her father or mother, in my opinion:
Look at how your potential partner feels about and treats his or her opposite gender parent. Examine how that parent treated him or her.
I believe that there is a significant correlation between the quality of one's relationship with the opposite gender parent and one's likelihood of forming a loving and lasting bond in marriage.
Look at how your potential partner feels about and treats his or her opposite gender parent. Examine how that parent treated him or her.
I believe that there is a significant correlation between the quality of one's relationship with the opposite gender parent and one's likelihood of forming a loving and lasting bond in marriage.
13
yes...and no. I an married 34 years this past week. His mother and I STILL don't see eye to eye (but I did hear hear she praised my cooking to a new in-law this year...imagine that!) but my husband is NOT a copy of his mother, for which I am grateful.
3
This is such a well considered and carefully crafted article. It's a miracle that two people can survive together for decades. Relationships and people evolve through so many stages that are difficult to predict.
Marriage can be brutal. Over the years, my marriage has forced me to confront all of my character defects, which was appalling to me at the time. Now we laugh off each other's quirks. Thanks to marriage, I'm no longer afraid to be wrong or to be less than perfect. Sometimes, if you can survive a marriage, it will set you free. An old marriage can be worth staying for.
Marriage can be brutal. Over the years, my marriage has forced me to confront all of my character defects, which was appalling to me at the time. Now we laugh off each other's quirks. Thanks to marriage, I'm no longer afraid to be wrong or to be less than perfect. Sometimes, if you can survive a marriage, it will set you free. An old marriage can be worth staying for.
46
As I lay here next to my sleeping wife of 45 years and after 5 children, 16 grandchildren and 3 great-grandchildren she is still the most beautiful and wonderful person who makes my life delightful and I try very hard to do the same. I feel sorry for the author of this this piece. The trouble is not in the stars but in him.
34
You are very lucky. But no need to judge the author as I'm sure he isn't speaking for the very lucky, but for the folks that depsite their very best and earnest efforts, still come up lacking in the marriage department, and truth is that is a majority of marriages.
8
You are a very lucky person, and I know that there are people like you in marriages like yours. But many, many lasting marriages do not stay in that state of grace.
For many, perfection is not one of the choices on the marital menu card.
For many, perfection is not one of the choices on the marital menu card.
4
Kenneth, you might actually be pleasantly surprised by the conclusions and advice within the article, once you read it. ;) (Also, a hint: The title isn't 100% literal.) Best of luck, sir, happy reading.
2
The Victorian writer Anthony Trollope says of one of his characters something like this: "Having a good digestion and a command of her temper, she jogged along well enough with Lord X [her irascible husband.]"
4
Who, pray tell then, would ever be the right person?
2
Spot on as I move into the 16th year of my relationship. We took a long time to marry, and steadfast friends wondered why I would finally wed my imperfect partner. Yes, there was that pesky little thought (at least I can say I failed at marriage instead of being unmarriable), and yes, there were more practical reasons than romantic (dispassionate financial security). I finally was able to vocalize the logic to my doubters that "he puts up with my b. s."
And, most days, that's enough.
And, most days, that's enough.
9
My mother was married three times as was my father; I learned from their mistakes - I never married. I'm very happy.
13
What kind of crazy are you is probably the most important question we can't ask outright, but need an answer to. I've had four husbands, each with their own brand of crazy, all whom I liked very much and could probably marry again, with a sufficient breather between rounds of craziness. Part of the trouble with keeping a relationship together in the U.S. is that each partner has a Greek chorus chanting in the background "you deserve better than this. Don't put up with that!" I think virtually anyone can look around them and be hard pressed to name five couples with great, enduring relationships, and yet be caught on a constant quest for that illusive, perfect, 50 year marriage. That's like being on a quest for the perfect martini--nice if you can find it, but are you enjoying no other martinis if you don't? The fact is, we are a mystery to ourselves, and don't really know what combination of traits will make us "happy" in a relationship.
38
You may be onto something in that first sentence. George Strait, singing a Delbert McClinton song, says "I finally got something right" when he finds a woman who's "the same kinda crazy as me." May a ready sense of humor ease the search for everyone.
3
Don't know how old the author is. I Assume he is or has been married. However, his viewpoint is rather nihilistic in my opinion. Marriage is more about learning to compromise and sometimes putting your partner's happiness above your own than it is about finding the right partner. It is always about joining together to make a home for and do right by the children you produce. The problem with people today, and this is a consequence of the "me" generation, is that their own happiness is of supreme importance over all else, including their partner's. This is why our divorce rate stands at 50%.
12
Insert "we sentimentalists" every time you come across "we" and the scope and relevance of this opinion piece becomes more appropriate -- and maybe even useful to those with a tendency to favor emotion over reason when it comes to making decisions.
8
One of the best speeches in American cinema about the trials and tribulations of marriage is the following, from "The Best Years of Our Lives" (1946), captured from the Internet Movie Database:
[after Peggy [played by Teresa Wright] tells her parents that they never had any trouble in their relationship]
Milly Stephenson [played by Myrna Loy]: "We never had any trouble." How many times have I told you [husband Al, played by Fredric March] I hated you and believed it in my heart? How many times have you said you were sick and tired of me; that we were all washed up? How many times have we had to fall in love all over again?
[after Peggy [played by Teresa Wright] tells her parents that they never had any trouble in their relationship]
Milly Stephenson [played by Myrna Loy]: "We never had any trouble." How many times have I told you [husband Al, played by Fredric March] I hated you and believed it in my heart? How many times have you said you were sick and tired of me; that we were all washed up? How many times have we had to fall in love all over again?
7
On this one and so many other levels, The" Best Years of Our Lives" could be America's greatest film.
6
Such 'half empty' view. Yes, the blush of romantic love most often diminishes with time but often only because we let it.
Relationships can be what we make them. Bad attitude results in bad relationships. Think abut it. YOUR attitude effects your partner immensely and that of course effects you and the relationship.
Relationships can be what we make them. Bad attitude results in bad relationships. Think abut it. YOUR attitude effects your partner immensely and that of course effects you and the relationship.
5
Our 50 plus year marriage has been successful because we both subscribe to the approach that marriage is a 60 / 60 proposition. If you always each strive for this you will rarely fall short of 100% and avoid the resultant problems
7
"Rather than some notional idea of perfect complementarity, it is the capacity to tolerate differences with generosity that is the true marker of the “not overly wrong” person. Compatibility is an achievement of love; it must not be its precondition." Thank you spouse, for tolerating my insanities and differences with generosity--and your welcome.
Twenty-five years and counting...
Twenty-five years and counting...
7
I find this interesting, but no different from the many other rationalizations of the madness that is marriage, literally! As somebody recently said, it's an outdated institution, period! I think its purely the preserve of liars and/or actors, putting on a show for everyone else! 100% of the people I know in marriage are either miserable, regretful, unhappy, lying about it, or have purely other reasons than love for staying together! The brave ones put an end to all the pretense, lying, infidelity, and cheating or "wandering eyes" with divorce. Marriage is great only for great liars, or the purely mad, or devoid of the worldly pleasures of the opposite or same sex, period! A great marriage, if there's one, is an honest and open one!!!!
13
Wondering who's the"we" so repetitively referred
to.
to.
1
People in general. With exceptions, of course.
2
Marriage = wishful thinking = dreaming = delusion. But it is great! Always interesting to see human beings delude themselves!!
4
An excellent column, well done and much needed. The romantic love that generally precipitates marriage must ultimately be reinforced, even replaced, by a durable sort of respect that comes with the realization of the truths laid out in this fine piece of writing.
16
"Marriage: When two people are under the influence of the most violent, most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions, they are required to swear that they will remain in that excited, abnormal, and exhausting condition continuously until death do them part." George Bernard Shaw
18
A wise aphorism: "the cure for loneliness is solitude."
13
Only a culture as flawed and shallow as America's would cling to the childish idiocy of the "perfect mate." As if it were a Milton Bradley board game from the early 1960s. One is pleased to see that M. de Botton sensibly recognises the freshly-minted pedigree of our conjugal notions and has set himself to disabusing the careful reader of sad illusions on the subject of matrimony.
4
As always (e.g. his many books) de Botton hits the nail on the head. His many non-fiction books might be described by some as 'philosophy, light' because they are so readable; but I would label them more aptly 'philosophy, profound' because he so often hits the nail on the head.
7
Using too many big words to say "lower your expectations". I dont choose to live my life that way. I am optimistic and idealist because it allows me to make my wishes come true.
3
Amir, look the words up, buddy, that's not what the article said. ;)
3
My 55 year experience with on person agrees with the author.
Sorry rookies.
Sorry rookies.
5
I'm 67 and have never been married. Still, my married friends tell me not lose hope and that there is still someone out there who is right for me. They never seem to consider the benefits of remaining single and avoiding all the difficulties and disappointments of marriage. I'm good with staying single my whole life. The basic consideration should be how an individual feels about interacting constantly with another person, as is required in a marriage. If that appeals, then maybe marriage is an option. On the other hand, if you value time alone more and don't want to be responsible for another person's happiness, the single life has more sway.
10
After 40 years of a good marriage I realized (with some coaching from a good therapist) that I don't need to feel responsible for my wife's emotional state at any given point -- apart from birthdays and anniversaries, of course!
3
What kind of partnet/husband will he be? Pay attention to how he treats his mother.......
16
It's simple: marriage is equal parts boredom and compromise.
161
After the flush of being "in love" ends, the real long-term love commitment begins (if you and your partner are lucky). Features of that state may include:
Mutual supportiveness
Disappointment
Companionship
Symbiotic investment
Affection
Dispute management
Loyalty
Reduced expectations
Comfort
Acceptance
Mutual supportiveness
Disappointment
Companionship
Symbiotic investment
Affection
Dispute management
Loyalty
Reduced expectations
Comfort
Acceptance
3
Sometimes. But so does staying single. You think you don't compromise when alone? Sure you do: you compromise in your living space, because you have only one income to pay rent. You compromise at work, staying extra hours because you have no one to go home to. You avoid certain social situations because you are the only one not part of a couple. Neither situation is perfect.
4
Oh boy, you got that right. And throw in petty annoyances
2
This conversation never ends and never satisfies. My lovely wife and I have been married for 39 years and believe me when I say she is no Stepford wife. She has a short fuse and a propensity to use words that she shouldn't, but I accept it. I find her exasperating at times, but always respect her because she is intelligent and honest and I would never, ever say anything negative about her to anyone. That's between us. And she reciprocates, even though she finds much to criticize. I understand -- neither one of us is saintly.
The secret to a good marriage? Love? Yes, but not the kind of love teenagers have -- instead it is a mature affection and respect for one another born of shared sacrifice, challenges, and, hopefully, the raising of children. And need I add of trust and confidence that we both have each other's back and would NEVER, under any circumstance, betray it.
I did not find this so very hard and feel remorse for those who could not or cannot make such a simple bargain work. In fact, I would add that those who could not achieve this very simple and straightforward transaction did not try very hard and did not properly value the person whom they claimed to embrace. And what about the innocent children?
In sum, I would say that marriage is a necessary and lovely institution and those who eschew it or mock it or refuse to participate are fools.
The secret to a good marriage? Love? Yes, but not the kind of love teenagers have -- instead it is a mature affection and respect for one another born of shared sacrifice, challenges, and, hopefully, the raising of children. And need I add of trust and confidence that we both have each other's back and would NEVER, under any circumstance, betray it.
I did not find this so very hard and feel remorse for those who could not or cannot make such a simple bargain work. In fact, I would add that those who could not achieve this very simple and straightforward transaction did not try very hard and did not properly value the person whom they claimed to embrace. And what about the innocent children?
In sum, I would say that marriage is a necessary and lovely institution and those who eschew it or mock it or refuse to participate are fools.
15
The drawing by Marion Fayolle is one of the best examples I have ever seen that describes the dropping away of the illusion of our own projections and discovering the other for who they are. Great piece of work and understanding.
Two excellent, small tomes on the issues raised by Mr. de Botton include:
"Marriage: Dead or Alive" by Adolph Guggenbuhl-Craig; Swiss Jungian psychotherapist.
"Invisible Partners" by John Sanford, Jungian analyst and priest, Episcopal as I recall, perhaps incorrectly.
And a further piece by Carl Jung: "The Undiscovered Self".
All these might help in some measure to not marry the "wrong person".
Two excellent, small tomes on the issues raised by Mr. de Botton include:
"Marriage: Dead or Alive" by Adolph Guggenbuhl-Craig; Swiss Jungian psychotherapist.
"Invisible Partners" by John Sanford, Jungian analyst and priest, Episcopal as I recall, perhaps incorrectly.
And a further piece by Carl Jung: "The Undiscovered Self".
All these might help in some measure to not marry the "wrong person".
8
Among other things identify your motivation for marrying as well as your potential mate's. If your goals for the marriage aren't the same, look out below. Real honesty is the key. Most of us avoid it because it would point us away from quicker or more initially convenient partners. It might also cause us to examine our expectations for reasonableness and long term compatibility with the institution of marriage.
6
Ugh. Maybe it's just me but when a writer tells me how I feel I get annoyed.
No science here I notice, just opinions. So I can throw in my opinion as well: marriage is about finding someone (not the perfect someone) with whom one can enjoy time together (lots of time) and feel close and caring. More to it than that, but that's the core, IMHO
No science here I notice, just opinions. So I can throw in my opinion as well: marriage is about finding someone (not the perfect someone) with whom one can enjoy time together (lots of time) and feel close and caring. More to it than that, but that's the core, IMHO
12
hmmm...it sounds like the author might be trying to justify his own failures in this department by constructing a misery-enjoys-company philosophy. A self-serving, bitter essay in my view.
6
If you are truly content with your life, there is no need to be lonely or to get married.
A single life of learning and growing is a beautiful thing that many long-married people secretly wish for.
A single life of learning and growing is a beautiful thing that many long-married people secretly wish for.
22
If indeed the wishes of others are "secret," then how can you know them?
3
It is not about their contentment; it is about yours.
2
Sometimes there are irreconcilable differences between people and then they should not waste each-others time and move on.
But if they are a great match, then I respectfully disagree that pessimism is a good strategy. It is my observation that if one expects to be dissapointed, one will also notice the negative things more often. And in time, the negatives will be connected into a long depressing narrative.
Contrary to all evidence I prefer the Romantic view, but tinged with openness, cautious optimism, sense of humour, ability to forgive and forget, and a set of overlapping values.
But if they are a great match, then I respectfully disagree that pessimism is a good strategy. It is my observation that if one expects to be dissapointed, one will also notice the negative things more often. And in time, the negatives will be connected into a long depressing narrative.
Contrary to all evidence I prefer the Romantic view, but tinged with openness, cautious optimism, sense of humour, ability to forgive and forget, and a set of overlapping values.
18
As much as I did not want to accept Botton's pessimist point of view, I have to acknowledge he is right, at least if I apply what he says to my personal case. Thus the most important thing before marrying would be to find "the person who can negotiate differences in taste intelligently." More realistic and maybe less complicated than finding"the price(ess) of our dreams. Good advice!
5
After 3 failed marriages, all which I entered into for the wrong reasons, I remained single till I was content living with myself.
Then I met someone unlike anyone I had ever known before. We lived and worked together for 13 years and decided that since we both are in our 60's it was finally safe to proceed, and so last June she and I married.
Then I met someone unlike anyone I had ever known before. We lived and worked together for 13 years and decided that since we both are in our 60's it was finally safe to proceed, and so last June she and I married.
23
Given the nature of state laws today, there is no good reason for a single, successful man who does not want children to get married. And there are lots of bad reasons.
9
So if romanticism as a basis for marriage is, in the end, little better to individuals than marriages for some arrangement are, one must question whether the fault isn't with the basis, but rather the institution of marriage itself? Is lifetime monogamy the ideal in our cultural mythologies, but in practice is more of just another form of oppression?
No matter what the paradigm of relationships may be based upon, in the end it comes down to the same thing: imperfect people in an imperfect world. You roll the dice, pay your dues, and take your chances.
Good luck.
No matter what the paradigm of relationships may be based upon, in the end it comes down to the same thing: imperfect people in an imperfect world. You roll the dice, pay your dues, and take your chances.
Good luck.
11
Well that was kind of depressing.
I married the person that I realized I could respect. He was good to his family, took responsibility seriously, and was - and this was a deal breaker - totally ethical. And he made me laugh. How could I not want to be with him?
It was that he wanted to be with me that was always the surprise.
You can marry the right person if you have an inkling of self knowledge, and the great good luck to find some one who has completed most of radical change that comes with growing up and maturing.
So, OK, maybe I agree a little, because I didn't marry the guy who made me feel a little high, I married the guy who made me feel like a better human.
I married the person that I realized I could respect. He was good to his family, took responsibility seriously, and was - and this was a deal breaker - totally ethical. And he made me laugh. How could I not want to be with him?
It was that he wanted to be with me that was always the surprise.
You can marry the right person if you have an inkling of self knowledge, and the great good luck to find some one who has completed most of radical change that comes with growing up and maturing.
So, OK, maybe I agree a little, because I didn't marry the guy who made me feel a little high, I married the guy who made me feel like a better human.
47
I am just floored by the eloquence of this piece. What a beautiful tapestry of words !
13
I understand this opinion article is more about feelings than facts. However, I would have expected a few more thoughts about the causes of picking the wrong partners, sprinkled with some statistics.
4
I see so many couples going through the motions who nonetheless will probably remained married "til death do we part". It's very sad. Contrast the intense love and respect and enthusiasm Barack and Michelle Obama show for each other with the you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours type of marriage exemplied by Bill and Hillary Clinton. I suppose nothing is wrong with either marriage though only the Obama partnership is one I could regret never having.
12
The notion of loving one person for your time on earth has always been foreign to me. I believe in great loves that come like leaves in the wind.
Stating or writing about marriage in this context and in this day and age makes no sense to me.
Why does one need a pre modern term to live / have children / travel / respect / etc... The one you love.
Marriage to me at this pint in this day and age is a tax benefit. I say to all lovers young and old, be with your other. Period the End.
Stating or writing about marriage in this context and in this day and age makes no sense to me.
Why does one need a pre modern term to live / have children / travel / respect / etc... The one you love.
Marriage to me at this pint in this day and age is a tax benefit. I say to all lovers young and old, be with your other. Period the End.
6
Having played the piano at hundreds of receptions I always watched what happened before the first dance and how the "In-Laws" got along at the "Head Table".
Before you get married please do the following:
a) Go on a long trip where you two are confined in cars/trains/ small rooms for hours at a time.
b) Watch how your potential spouse treats the help at hotels/restaurants.
c) Watch your and his/hers favourite film and see what your future spouse
things about it.
d) Take a long and honest look at your In-Laws - the apple rarely falls that far
from the tree.
Finally realise there is a much deeper love than romantic love and if you do not
have it or feel you can grow to have it with your future spouse...
Before you get married please do the following:
a) Go on a long trip where you two are confined in cars/trains/ small rooms for hours at a time.
b) Watch how your potential spouse treats the help at hotels/restaurants.
c) Watch your and his/hers favourite film and see what your future spouse
things about it.
d) Take a long and honest look at your In-Laws - the apple rarely falls that far
from the tree.
Finally realise there is a much deeper love than romantic love and if you do not
have it or feel you can grow to have it with your future spouse...
38
Sounds like projection. I married the love of my life and she remains so after 30 years.
9
As a weathered couples therapist for many years, I find this article almost “all you need to know.”
If you can smile while reading it, you will be fine.
Thanks, Mr. deBotton, for a great piece.
If you can smile while reading it, you will be fine.
Thanks, Mr. deBotton, for a great piece.
13
Oh, you generous, loving, tender, cynical realist, Mr. de Botton. You are extending us a gift if only we can wake from our silly prince/princess dreams long enough to accept it. We Americans (and some others out there) are so wedded to our certainty that the vast spinning universe itself, all of it, waits with bated breath to find us worthy in our true belief and noble, narcissistic self-absorption that it can bestow pure wish-fulfilment on us as a fitting reward. May we all awake to the hearty, durable joy of the imperfect Now from the effortless lotus dreams of the One.
5
One of the best pieces I've read in the New York Times in quite some time.
Less Trump more De Bottom!
Less Trump more De Bottom!
22
" . . . it is the capacity to tolerate differences with generosity that is the true marker of the “not overly wrong” person."
I married a guy who excels at this, among other things. Celebrated our 38th anniversary two days ago.
I married a guy who excels at this, among other things. Celebrated our 38th anniversary two days ago.
2
Marriage is the compromise of freedom for companionship. Then it becomes the sacrifice of happiness in the service of parental duty. Life is too short for such compromises...but the children
2
And if you manage, as Kierkegaard enjoins us, to be objective towards yourself and subjective towards your spouse, you will probably realize that s/he, too, married the wrong person.
8
In response to dga, I suspect Mr de Botton would agree that marital problems arising from addiction or mental-health issues need especial consideration.
Thank you, Mr de Botton, for a serious but light-textured piece. Could you perhaps now pen something entitled "Why You Will Elect the Wrong Person"?
Thank you, Mr de Botton, for a serious but light-textured piece. Could you perhaps now pen something entitled "Why You Will Elect the Wrong Person"?
8
The very reason that marriage fails and romance disappears is because there are too many people like the author. Love and marriage is not a dough that you lead over over again and analyze left and right like the author, or the author-alike. Love is like gardening, marriage is just another spring - put your heart and sweat, at the end of summer, you are glad to pick your fruits. Nothing mor.
7
Mr. Botton, perhaps you should give credit to all the psychologists, who came before you, from whom you borrowed these ideas, beginning with Carl Jung.
1
I just lost my wife of 50 years to cancer three months ago. I don't recognize our marriage in this article. I know we were lucky, but if most of this article is true our luck was boundless.
We met in Junior High School at age 13. We married at 21. We actively loved each other -- intellectually, physically, emotionally -- and told each other we loved each other pretty much every day. We argued rarely; we never fought. On the brink of what could have been a significant argument we both broke up laughing. Boring, huh? Neither of us considered it "work." You don't "work" on a marriage. You respect each other, you agree to disagree. Lest you think we were simple unsophisticates, we were both professionals, she with a international corporation I with a law firm.
There are many good tips for getting along in a loving relationship. Perhaps the one that worked best for us -- always practiced never (as I recall) articulated: you don't have to say everything that crosses your mind.
The ache is endless. But my memories are full of smiles.
I am
We met in Junior High School at age 13. We married at 21. We actively loved each other -- intellectually, physically, emotionally -- and told each other we loved each other pretty much every day. We argued rarely; we never fought. On the brink of what could have been a significant argument we both broke up laughing. Boring, huh? Neither of us considered it "work." You don't "work" on a marriage. You respect each other, you agree to disagree. Lest you think we were simple unsophisticates, we were both professionals, she with a international corporation I with a law firm.
There are many good tips for getting along in a loving relationship. Perhaps the one that worked best for us -- always practiced never (as I recall) articulated: you don't have to say everything that crosses your mind.
The ache is endless. But my memories are full of smiles.
I am
2464
Please accept my condolences on the death of your beloved spouse.
" you don't have to say everything that crosses your mind." Such good advice in this age of oversharing.
I'm a school librarian, and I tell my students, "Every thought that comes into your head does not have to come out of your mouth."
" you don't have to say everything that crosses your mind." Such good advice in this age of oversharing.
I'm a school librarian, and I tell my students, "Every thought that comes into your head does not have to come out of your mouth."
33
Thank you, LHC. I wish you well in the years ahead of you.
My husband and I have been together for 32 years, 98% of which has been lovely, enriching, and fun. We have very similar family backgrounds and shared values from common religious and political views. When we were married, our minister instructed us to remember that a good marriage required compatibility, commitment, and courage. All, I think, are key to maintaining a good (and I do not use that word to describe mediocracy), truly good marriage. Compatibility is what most people look for, and hope that it will carry them through the vicissitudes and challenges they will face over many years. But it is commitment and courage that my husband and I have relied on again and again through illness, parenting challenges, illness, cross-country moves, family crises, mid-life crises, illness, and career success and failures. Without commitment to our marriage--which entails a willingness to reflect internally and grow with each other--and the courage to work through tough times and to support each other when it isn't fun or lovely, we could easily have left it all behind and sought out the next fun and lovely thing.
But I would add a fourth requirement, and that is community. We have maintained ties with those people who have nurtured our commitment to each other--our family, church, and friends.
My husband is the best friend I've ever had, and I am exceedingly grateful.
My husband and I have been together for 32 years, 98% of which has been lovely, enriching, and fun. We have very similar family backgrounds and shared values from common religious and political views. When we were married, our minister instructed us to remember that a good marriage required compatibility, commitment, and courage. All, I think, are key to maintaining a good (and I do not use that word to describe mediocracy), truly good marriage. Compatibility is what most people look for, and hope that it will carry them through the vicissitudes and challenges they will face over many years. But it is commitment and courage that my husband and I have relied on again and again through illness, parenting challenges, illness, cross-country moves, family crises, mid-life crises, illness, and career success and failures. Without commitment to our marriage--which entails a willingness to reflect internally and grow with each other--and the courage to work through tough times and to support each other when it isn't fun or lovely, we could easily have left it all behind and sought out the next fun and lovely thing.
But I would add a fourth requirement, and that is community. We have maintained ties with those people who have nurtured our commitment to each other--our family, church, and friends.
My husband is the best friend I've ever had, and I am exceedingly grateful.
23
Deep and profound sympathy for your loss. The ache is indeed endless, but the smiles sometimes get through.
14
A risotto place? Any ristorante or trattoria in Italy will have a couple of risotto courses.
5
My parents just celebrated their 29 anniversary last week. I was wondering how in the heck could two person with such different personalities, behaviour, and philosophies still be married to each other for so long. So I asked my mom how did they make it work? She said something to me something about how they felt that they understood each others happiness and sorrow in a way that no other person in the world could.
So then I asked her how can she think like that when they were never married to other person. She simply replied, "That's reason why we are still married."
So then I asked her how can she think like that when they were never married to other person. She simply replied, "That's reason why we are still married."
9
Brilliant and charming and comforting. Thank goodness its all out in the open here...a relief to not be (endlessly) required to aspire to the unattainable...and a relief to be given permission to enjoy what is. This is an homage to mature love.
4
Great column. The same thoughts can apply to almost any other relationship in life.
2
A better headline would be: Why you will marry and then compromise with your partner for the rest of your marriage (or life). Marriage is a big compromise. In arrainged marriages, one partner will do all the compromising ( normally the woman). In love marriages both partners have to compromise. Divorce should never be off the table, but should not be the first or only option. Surprisingly why you fell in love in the first place, always helps. Never cheat!
8
Oh come on now, as my mother used to say: Romantic love is the biggest supplier of disenchanted souls to the divorce courts.
4
I married the guy I truly believed that I could have a conversation with 20 years down the road...and we're still talking at the 32nd mark.....
15
The poet W.H. Auden called marriage "the long conversation"—the one whose fascinations continue, for years and decades.
5
It is not about us now but about a commitment to our unknown joint future based on judgment today.
If wrong, let us say what it is - cut and run!
If wrong, let us say what it is - cut and run!
Having been put in the position to advise our son about various romantic situations, even though we did not ask for this job, and our parents never did it for us, we advised having shared interests. This outlasts sexual compatibility, which is also quite important.
Liking the same food also helps.
Liking the same food also helps.
3
I'm always saddened to see so many people who are married to people they don't truly like. In the words of Percy Sledge, take time to know her / him.
5
The only thing missing from this is that a totally committed relationship turns out to be a great place to grow, and a partner's insight can provide a map for that growth. Those patterns from childhood? They can be healed and changed, making it that much easier for the next generation to be s better partner and find a better partner.
Some things, of course, can't change. They are the essence of being. But, oh, my, there is a lot you can dig in and work on. (20 years since meeting, 19 since marriage, two bouts of unemployment, three moves, two houses under construction, one special needs child, four miscarriages and a good life together. (All the kids are doing great. Even the special needs kid. And so far, they are choosing great friends and crushes. Fingers crossed.)
,
Some things, of course, can't change. They are the essence of being. But, oh, my, there is a lot you can dig in and work on. (20 years since meeting, 19 since marriage, two bouts of unemployment, three moves, two houses under construction, one special needs child, four miscarriages and a good life together. (All the kids are doing great. Even the special needs kid. And so far, they are choosing great friends and crushes. Fingers crossed.)
,
6
I first read this formula for finding the "perfect" mate in a book by Darrin Hardy called The Compound Effect: Make a list of all the qualities you seek in a mate. Use that list to see which of those qualities you possess. Acquire those qualities you are lacking in. Once done, your "perfect" mate will fine you. In any event, I really liked this article.
3
It's amazing how often lonely-hearts writings make the opinion pages of the NYT.
6
I've occasionally wondered how many marriages were ruined by the unrealistic expectations baked deep into the psyche, early in life, by old Disney cartoons. (Perhaps Frozen was something of a penance?) Children could benefit from the deep wisdom on display here, wisdom which sadly evades us until long after the damage is done.
Would someone kindly weave it into a cartoon?
Would someone kindly weave it into a cartoon?
5
Haha, I wish it were that simple!!! I grew up in former Soviet Union with Grimms fairy tales and was bathed in Disney cartoons only starting age 13 or so. I still have unrealistic expectations.
LOL
LOL
3
If you are dating, and trying to decide if this is the right person for you, then try this; When confronted with problems in the relationship, see if your partner makes an attempt to make things better, makes it worse or waits for you to do something. If your partner usually tries to make things better, you may have found a good one. At least one partner is necessary in a relationship with this trait for a marriage to survive. If both of you have this trait, you will have a happy life together. I don't think the rest of the traits that each of you have matter as much.
8
It's difficult to attempt to make things better when one person insists nothing's wrong when asked. It's more like , "I'm angry and it's up to you to figure out why."
1
An excellent analysis of what ails most couples I see, as a Clinical Psychologist. Waylaid by romantic idealism and unskilled at dealing with the panoply of inevitable differences, they come in with arm loads of disappointment and resentments. It takes some critical work to revamp these cultural expectations.
12
Bingo, and beautifully put. The idea of well-managed conflict applies more broadly as well in political and social life. Much is about picking your problems, in a relationship, in a career, in a friendship, in a society, in global affairs. In a relationship, one's partner exhibits a whole constellation of characteristics that in them necessarily come together. Quickly to anger, e.g., may also entail deeply to love; generosity may entail extravagance. As the piece suggests, contentment comes from navigating the good and the bad of these, and working to orchestrate harmony through self-awareness, communication, and mutual accommodation. As the state of the various realms in which we apply this technique suggest, this is no easy task. But identifying the proper task is half the battle. Kudos on this piece. Look forward to more.
3
Even if two people are "right" for one another when they decide to marry, the reality is that everyone is constantly changing, and there's no meaningful way to predict whether any given pair of people will evolve in compatible ways. So, a worthwhile long-term marriage requires continually getting to know one's spouse anew, as the person he or she is always in the process of becoming, and not viewing one's spouse through the restrictive prism of the past. (This is also a key to maintaining good relationships with one's adult children.) This, plus as much tenderness as we can muster for our partner in life's journey--manifested by trusting that our partner is doing his or her best under the circumstances presented--gives us our best shot at a sustained, loving partnership.
503
I really loved this article, it pointed out thoughts I've encountered but haven't really acknowledged before. I've always wanted perfect, but having 'perfect' means no perfectibility, no allowances for mistakes. I don't think I want 'perfect' anymore.
185
Marriages from early on tend to teach one the fine art of forgiveness. And, not incidentally, the forgiveness of one who comes to know us as well or even better than we know ourselves may be the most precious thing that marriage has to offer because that singular sort of forgiveness is the closest that most of us will ever come to self forgiveness and, therefore, true peace of mind.
12
I've been married 29 years, to my first and only wife. A chance introduction by a mutual friend. I was 25 and she was 21. Less than a year later we eloped to Reno. But most of the time in between we lived in different states.
In almost any company that does not know us well, I will glibly refer to her as my "Trophy Wife", but then always add "First Place Trophy of course"! By definition I will have subtly insulted half of the married people within earshot I guess, but that's their problem. Invariably, they seem to admire our marital tenacity, despite the sideways diss.
Marriage is work. Marriage is a business. Be kind, understanding, and loyal. Do not let yourself go. Try to stay as attractive to your partner as you can. That is important. And that usually means you are taking care of yourself too, in the process. Avoid addictions of any sort at all costs. This is Marriage-101, and we've all heard it, but it's true!
My trophy wife and I also agree with the author that you need to lower your expectations because no one can be everything to everyone. Just accept it, and do your best.
And lastly, a confession. Never dismiss that there is a tremendous amount of luck that goes into making this decision. Truly, we hardly knew each other when we said "I do".
In almost any company that does not know us well, I will glibly refer to her as my "Trophy Wife", but then always add "First Place Trophy of course"! By definition I will have subtly insulted half of the married people within earshot I guess, but that's their problem. Invariably, they seem to admire our marital tenacity, despite the sideways diss.
Marriage is work. Marriage is a business. Be kind, understanding, and loyal. Do not let yourself go. Try to stay as attractive to your partner as you can. That is important. And that usually means you are taking care of yourself too, in the process. Avoid addictions of any sort at all costs. This is Marriage-101, and we've all heard it, but it's true!
My trophy wife and I also agree with the author that you need to lower your expectations because no one can be everything to everyone. Just accept it, and do your best.
And lastly, a confession. Never dismiss that there is a tremendous amount of luck that goes into making this decision. Truly, we hardly knew each other when we said "I do".
8
Good luck to everyone.
8
Thank you. Best essay I have read in some time about relationships. Accommodating the imperfections of others, acknowledging your own, and working at differences with grace and generosity are among the most difficult and essential of adult skills. I love the summing up “compatibility is an achievement of love,” not its precondition.
6
"it is the capacity to tolerate differences with generosity that is the true marker of the “not overly wrong” person." I wholeheartedly agree with this, for platonic and romantic relationships, though I don't consider it a sign of pessimism as much as pragmatism and maturity. Perhaps if we stop expecting perfection in ourselves and elsewhere, it might be easier to consider each other with more kindness and forgiveness.
I know quite a number of very happy long-term "arranged marriages," which have been successful for varied reasons, among them a respect for each other's differences, a commitment to working things out and the determination to get through the challenges that life presents, together, and always, a generosity of spirit.
Having said all that, a bit of luck helps, too!
I know quite a number of very happy long-term "arranged marriages," which have been successful for varied reasons, among them a respect for each other's differences, a commitment to working things out and the determination to get through the challenges that life presents, together, and always, a generosity of spirit.
Having said all that, a bit of luck helps, too!
10
In other words, that glorious Holy matrimony whose demise is lamented by "conservatives" has rarely existed. As the author states at the beginning, marriage through most of human history has been made of convenience, generally financial in nature. Ho hum.
1
"...it is the capacity to tolerate differences with generosity that is the true marker of the “not overly wrong” person." Exactly! Look at King Kong and Fay Wray, for example. Talk about a mismatch!
But...on closer examination, look at how things turned out for her. Kong recognized their differences and he tolerated her's with the ultimate generosity; he set Ms. Wray down gently, out of the airplane fire and patted her one last time...goodbye. The wrong ape would have used her as shield or taken her with him on the outdoor-express-elevator to the bottom of the Empire State Building!
But...on closer examination, look at how things turned out for her. Kong recognized their differences and he tolerated her's with the ultimate generosity; he set Ms. Wray down gently, out of the airplane fire and patted her one last time...goodbye. The wrong ape would have used her as shield or taken her with him on the outdoor-express-elevator to the bottom of the Empire State Building!
2
Many of the young women I've dated have flown off the handle and blown up the relationship at the first sign of trouble. I think many girls are still somehow in thrall to the fantasy that there is a man who will fulfill their every expectation without flaw. All hallmarks of bad thinking: predicting the future, black and white, generalizations..the paths to depression.
8
So it is the women in your life that have unrealistic expectations, D. Moore?Perhaps...if they grew up in a house with a single mother such fairy tales might persist. My parents are still together more than 50 years later. I know men are imperfect, I knew it before I had words.
For my parents, the success of their marriage relied on a busy travel schedule for work. When dad was home more than a week straight mom would start muttering "when is he leaving town?!" They are still together and relatively happy in his retirement (women don't retire).
Perhaps you might try not calling them all girls...
For my parents, the success of their marriage relied on a busy travel schedule for work. When dad was home more than a week straight mom would start muttering "when is he leaving town?!" They are still together and relatively happy in his retirement (women don't retire).
Perhaps you might try not calling them all girls...
7
One of the lasting dynamics of marriage is sacrifice: how much is each party going to give up in the pursuit of a common goal or dream? How much of individual needs and desires are going to be put to flames by the greater need to get along and find compatibility in areas of life where none naturally exists? (The early compatibility, for most people, comes much easier or else they split.)
This dynamic never ends. If most people entered marriage knowing how much personal sacrifice it takes, they would run for the hills rather than say, "I do". (By the way, we said, "I will" not by prearranged choice, but because it was more grammatical to the way the question was framed, "Will you...") To what end is this sacrifice? On what altar are our dreams slain a bloody death?
Is it the woman's necessary goal to tame the wild and reckless side of the man she chooses, to defeat him? If she defeats him, will she then love him more or slowly start to hate her own creation? The same sort of question could be posed of men: do they want to bend their mate's feminine side toward performance of duties, regardless of the need for self expression and a measure of breathable freedom?
These are radical questions. Just because marriages dominate society, we should not assume they shouldn't be asked.
Romantic notions bury such concerns and a million brides split their faces with permanent smiles on their wedding days, awaiting the truth to come.
Doug Terry
This dynamic never ends. If most people entered marriage knowing how much personal sacrifice it takes, they would run for the hills rather than say, "I do". (By the way, we said, "I will" not by prearranged choice, but because it was more grammatical to the way the question was framed, "Will you...") To what end is this sacrifice? On what altar are our dreams slain a bloody death?
Is it the woman's necessary goal to tame the wild and reckless side of the man she chooses, to defeat him? If she defeats him, will she then love him more or slowly start to hate her own creation? The same sort of question could be posed of men: do they want to bend their mate's feminine side toward performance of duties, regardless of the need for self expression and a measure of breathable freedom?
These are radical questions. Just because marriages dominate society, we should not assume they shouldn't be asked.
Romantic notions bury such concerns and a million brides split their faces with permanent smiles on their wedding days, awaiting the truth to come.
Doug Terry
2
In my couples therapy practice, clients often express the wish "to be accepted just as I am."
My response is that if we are fortunate, this may occur twice in our life: if our mom does an exceptional job during our infancy or if we are fortunate enough at some point to own a golden retriever. Aside from these examples, abandon all hope.
We arrive in our marriages carrying both strengths and exquisite mishegoss. That my wife remains curious and interested about mine fills me with gratitude.
My response is that if we are fortunate, this may occur twice in our life: if our mom does an exceptional job during our infancy or if we are fortunate enough at some point to own a golden retriever. Aside from these examples, abandon all hope.
We arrive in our marriages carrying both strengths and exquisite mishegoss. That my wife remains curious and interested about mine fills me with gratitude.
35
I married because I needed a car. It worked (the marriage) for 21 of its 22 years, so, all in all, I count it a success.
5
Not me, dude.
I fell in love in an instant over 40 years ago and we're still in love.
Happier than ever, in fact.
You only marry the wrong person if you're marrying for the wrong reason.
Duh.
I fell in love in an instant over 40 years ago and we're still in love.
Happier than ever, in fact.
You only marry the wrong person if you're marrying for the wrong reason.
Duh.
12
Too often people marry in the hope of solving a problem, or filling a deficiency that they perceive in themselves. Often this includes a fantasy that some admired quality of the spouse will be transmitted to them. Then, under stress, they encounter mutually unacceptable coping styles. This unsurprisingly leads to conflicts that cannot be resolved.
If you marry before attaining at least some knowledge if not resolution of your problems, or because you need a spouse, you are headed for trouble.
If you marry before attaining at least some knowledge if not resolution of your problems, or because you need a spouse, you are headed for trouble.
5
I am going to have to read this column two or three more times to fully grasp it.
What works? Travel, for a week or more, with your prospective spouse to a country where neither of you have even been before, and neither of you speaks the local language. You will learn more about your potential partner than you ever would at home.
What works? Travel, for a week or more, with your prospective spouse to a country where neither of you have even been before, and neither of you speaks the local language. You will learn more about your potential partner than you ever would at home.
9
If you can take a very long road trip with your intended spouse to see relatives on either side, stay with those relatives for a week and not kill each other then you guys have a shot.
3
Human beings evolved in a context where men and women had to cooperate to survive. Marriage allowed a man and a woman to form a cooperative union that allowed them, together, to get the essentials for survival including having food, shelter, and children. If we try to make up a new story of marriage centered around "love" we will find out, one way or another, that we are deceiving ourselves. But it is a very pleasant story to believe, as it simplifies life into a quest for the perfect mate as the solution to all problems. Who wants to admit there is no such simple solution?
1
Having recently ended an 18 year relationship/marriage...and more recently a year long rebound relationship. i am convinced that having lifestyle commonalities is important but most crucial is the absolute willingness on both partners part to find common ground/balance in dealing with the daily challenges that life presents us. Remembering that your partner is a flawed and a highly imperfect being....they will not live up to fantasy standards and cannot recreate the feelings of childhood expectations. No person alive will be able to fulfill these or your personal voids. After constant searching, i keep coming back to the same thing: find balance in your life and relationship, empathy and realistic expectations for your partner and the recognition of what are luxury problems in life and what are not. Ah, time to go....the sound of love needed coming from my 5 yr olds bedroom, Daddy "I want to snuggle"
9
I would like to recommend to the author and to readers the book "Leaving Mother Lake" by Namu and Mathieu,
This is about the place where I met my wife: Lake Lugu, in Yunnan. The lake hosts one of the last matriarchal societies on Earth. Here, in the land of the Moso, (sometimes called "the land of the walking marriage") marriage is temporal, dissociated from wealth, and very conditional.
It has been posited that dissociating wedlock from traditional western encumbrances makes for happier unions. This is laid-out in the book by the anthropologist coauthor. But this tale is not academic. It is earthy and riveting.
This is about the place where I met my wife: Lake Lugu, in Yunnan. The lake hosts one of the last matriarchal societies on Earth. Here, in the land of the Moso, (sometimes called "the land of the walking marriage") marriage is temporal, dissociated from wealth, and very conditional.
It has been posited that dissociating wedlock from traditional western encumbrances makes for happier unions. This is laid-out in the book by the anthropologist coauthor. But this tale is not academic. It is earthy and riveting.
3
Why women marry men or even have anything to do with us is somewhat beyond me. Some kind of madness, one can only assume.
20
I believe the author is recommending we choose someone reasonable and communicative....however nature conspires against us once a month. A sense of humor helps, or maybe a second bedroom?
7
As we approach 27 years of marriage, I beg to disagree with Alain de Boton- sometimes you get it right.
My wife and I met doing theater in a Midwestern cowtown. She from Minnesota, Me born on the banks of the Erie Canal. We had been through a lot of romances and partners, but in the process of working together in theater, our affection for each other grew through our imperfections. We weren't perfect, but who is?
Our differences were manageable and we complemented each other in places where others before had not. Moving in together was a good trial and each of us grew closer as senses of humor overcame the times either one of us felt the world was closing in too close for comfort. We stuck together.
Our marriage surprised almost all our friends few of whom thought us capable of pursuing the conventions of married life. Surprisingly, the path we chose together kept leading us somewhere better - bumps here, bruises there.
Our kids were an unexpected benefit that helped make better people out of us, 24 hours a day, despite the diapers and colds, broken bones and their testing the world around them like explorers on a strange planet. Our two boys are now young men, lives shaped through blizzards, sports, orchestra, pets, and mistakes we shared and muddled to solve.
I learned to not be critical of ideas when I first heard them. We worked together on projects I never dreamed up myself, growing closer in the process and creating a shared happiness that we now see was a perfect fit.
My wife and I met doing theater in a Midwestern cowtown. She from Minnesota, Me born on the banks of the Erie Canal. We had been through a lot of romances and partners, but in the process of working together in theater, our affection for each other grew through our imperfections. We weren't perfect, but who is?
Our differences were manageable and we complemented each other in places where others before had not. Moving in together was a good trial and each of us grew closer as senses of humor overcame the times either one of us felt the world was closing in too close for comfort. We stuck together.
Our marriage surprised almost all our friends few of whom thought us capable of pursuing the conventions of married life. Surprisingly, the path we chose together kept leading us somewhere better - bumps here, bruises there.
Our kids were an unexpected benefit that helped make better people out of us, 24 hours a day, despite the diapers and colds, broken bones and their testing the world around them like explorers on a strange planet. Our two boys are now young men, lives shaped through blizzards, sports, orchestra, pets, and mistakes we shared and muddled to solve.
I learned to not be critical of ideas when I first heard them. We worked together on projects I never dreamed up myself, growing closer in the process and creating a shared happiness that we now see was a perfect fit.
21
Your wife is from Minnesota, there's the success for your marriage right there.
Minnesotans are God's own people. Love 'em!
Minnesotans are God's own people. Love 'em!
4
I married the right woman. She and I were 19 when we got married. We had 3 children by age 22, five by age 28. We have 12 grandchildren, three of whom are in college, four in high school.
We are now 68, and celebrated our 49th anniversary last week. Of course, we got to know each other and each others' families pretty well before we got married, because we started going out together at 16.
So, I married the right woman. I hope she married the right man...I'll have to ask her!
We are now 68, and celebrated our 49th anniversary last week. Of course, we got to know each other and each others' families pretty well before we got married, because we started going out together at 16.
So, I married the right woman. I hope she married the right man...I'll have to ask her!
731
You are a lucky, lucky man. Now I have to ask your wife what she thinks.
7
Understandably, the columnist is an author but Mr Botton seems to make a lot of assumptions and pronouncement such as "Compatibility is an achievement of love; it must not be its precondition."
In spite of some successes with the modern dating sites, marriage and love are still a mystery to some and an obligation to others. The durability of an algorithm depends in part on faith. Whether it be lunch-date, church-date or arranged marriage, it is as rational as this column
In spite of some successes with the modern dating sites, marriage and love are still a mystery to some and an obligation to others. The durability of an algorithm depends in part on faith. Whether it be lunch-date, church-date or arranged marriage, it is as rational as this column
15
I often jest that marriage is a relationship where two people grow sick of each other together.
85
Like a Rabbi once told me about his belief in arranged marriage - marriage is too important and too complex for two young and inexperienced people to decide on their own.
48
Many women believe that once married they can help their college-educated husbands become avid readers and sensitive lovers of the arts. Post-adolescence, that's not likely to happen.
Men think the wives they've chosen for their relative attractiveness and ability to have fun will overnight become contended domestics providing the numerous services that their mothers once provided, at the same time remaining entertaining and romantic.)
These unrealistic expectations lead to longterm confusion and anger.
Men think the wives they've chosen for their relative attractiveness and ability to have fun will overnight become contended domestics providing the numerous services that their mothers once provided, at the same time remaining entertaining and romantic.)
These unrealistic expectations lead to longterm confusion and anger.
9
Romantic comedies and fairy tales have wreaked havoc on our expectations for love and marriage. The desperate search for a soul mate and one true love can be more restrictive to our happiness in the long run than even an arranged marriage.
Unlike the Greeks, we still have just one word to describe the many different types of love we experience in life. Marriage requires a type of love that cannot be achieved at first sight.
Unlike the Greeks, we still have just one word to describe the many different types of love we experience in life. Marriage requires a type of love that cannot be achieved at first sight.
103
First sight drives evo-devo, but converging interests preserve connubium & optimize the benisons of family.
2
Considering that there are only 7 billion people around, and that a person has 25,000 protein-coding genes that determine the personality, the probably of finding the right partner is close to zilch,
But it is not all that bad really, if you know the secret -- you learn to love the person you marry.
But it is not all that bad really, if you know the secret -- you learn to love the person you marry.
114
Isn't avoiding a mistake preferable to learning to adjust to a mistake?
3
Don't do that if they beat you....
1
@Jim Ryan,
If there are children involved, I prefer that they grow up having both parents around to raise them. In a "marriage" each avow to themselves and to those close to them that they will strive for it.
(ps: in my original note, read "probably" as "probability").
If there are children involved, I prefer that they grow up having both parents around to raise them. In a "marriage" each avow to themselves and to those close to them that they will strive for it.
(ps: in my original note, read "probably" as "probability").
I was in a long marriage with someone who wanted to change me and make me be more like he was. Why didn't I leave earlier? Because I spent all those years trying to be someone else, someone other than who I was. It was hard work and didn't work. I'm recovering and it's taking a really long time. Try not to make my mistake.
136
Hi Peggy. I love you just the way you are!
2
I understand and feel fully what you wrote about yourself. I am 69 years now and I still have to play the 'other person' my wife wants me to be. But we have children and grand children and I do not want to affect their lives by getting separated. So I try to be myself within the image I play!
2
Reminds me of The quote from the old TV show, Drag net. " There are 12 million stories in the city", something to that effect. When 50% of folks divorce the reasons are all over the map. Usually starts in my option with too much change from the onset. Kids, career's, financial responsibilities, and boredom.
1
“The person who is best suited to us is not the person who shares our every taste (he or she doesn’t exist), but the person who can negotiate differences in taste intelligently — the person who is good at disagreement.”
I’ve let the romantic view of marriage go and now look for a person who values compromise-cooperation when there is a disagreement. No matter how much I have in common with a person, the right approach to conflicts is what will determine if the relationship lasts. I wish I had known this before I married…then divorced. My husband approached conflicts in a dominance-submission manner. It’s a recipe for failure in a relationship because it doesn’t allow couples to open up communication and connection. There is a shuffling aside of problems, and solutions do not take place.
I’ve let the romantic view of marriage go and now look for a person who values compromise-cooperation when there is a disagreement. No matter how much I have in common with a person, the right approach to conflicts is what will determine if the relationship lasts. I wish I had known this before I married…then divorced. My husband approached conflicts in a dominance-submission manner. It’s a recipe for failure in a relationship because it doesn’t allow couples to open up communication and connection. There is a shuffling aside of problems, and solutions do not take place.
80
This is so. long. Got bored and if there's a point, it's buried.
52
You should probably stick to Twitter......
3
Maybe the writer has a twitter feed that would be more meaningful to you.
2
Got that right!
2
Marrying the right person requires a courage most people don't have. It requires the ability to say 'No,' knowing you could be alone; and requires the strength to lower your walls. All of your walls, all the way down. Are you, for instance, willing to tell / show your partner that you pick your nose in bed and that some of Trump's ideas make sense?
Most of us have a huge fear of being alone, so we compromise and tell ourselves 'I can live with that,' until we can't. Which is why the divorce rate is around 50%. We also are deathly afraid to show all of ourselves to anyone. We try to hide what we think is unworthy, except it keeps leaking out, or we get so frustrated by not being ourselves, there is an explosion. Again, the divorce rate is around 50%.
Perhaps we should raise the marriage age to 50. To an age where, perhaps, we have picked up some wisdom and some courage. Maybe then we would be more successful in picking partners.
Most of us have a huge fear of being alone, so we compromise and tell ourselves 'I can live with that,' until we can't. Which is why the divorce rate is around 50%. We also are deathly afraid to show all of ourselves to anyone. We try to hide what we think is unworthy, except it keeps leaking out, or we get so frustrated by not being ourselves, there is an explosion. Again, the divorce rate is around 50%.
Perhaps we should raise the marriage age to 50. To an age where, perhaps, we have picked up some wisdom and some courage. Maybe then we would be more successful in picking partners.
521
Actually best raise the age to 70 - my best insights about people and myself didn't happen until then. Who knows what deeper insights might arrive at age 80, 90 and 100.
3
I agree
1
I'm with you there. Raising the minimum age might also discourage the indiscriminate over-breeding that will soon destroy us all.
4
Wonderful. The experience of three marraiges conforms nicely with that written.
25
Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person:
Because the right person hasn't been born yet.
Because the right person hasn't been born yet.
20
...& never will be.
3
People who have not achieved fully happy relationships love to tell others that marriage is hard, that our expectations are too high, that no one can fulfill all our expectations, that there's no such thing as "the one" or soul mates. And on and on.
They think they speak for everyone (hence all the "we's" in this article). But they only speak of themselves and their disappointments. That want their pessimism to be "the way things are" but they are simply the way things are for *you*.
My husband and I have been married for over ten years. I have never felt that marriage was hard. It's the easiest and best thing in my life. I still feel he is the right one, in fact, the perfect one for me. Romanticism is alive in well, in some places, if not in all. Perhaps instead of lowering one's expectations, "we" should figure out how to find that Romanticism "ourselves."
They think they speak for everyone (hence all the "we's" in this article). But they only speak of themselves and their disappointments. That want their pessimism to be "the way things are" but they are simply the way things are for *you*.
My husband and I have been married for over ten years. I have never felt that marriage was hard. It's the easiest and best thing in my life. I still feel he is the right one, in fact, the perfect one for me. Romanticism is alive in well, in some places, if not in all. Perhaps instead of lowering one's expectations, "we" should figure out how to find that Romanticism "ourselves."
98
Defensive much?
PS: I think it is funny when people think ten years is a long time.
PS: I think it is funny when people think ten years is a long time.
10
Lets "us" know how you feel in another ten years.
11
I cannot help but wonder whether the spouses of those who claim to be in blissful, easy marriages would pass a polygraph test if they were asked if they too felt that way. I suspect not, in most cases. Marriage is only easy when the other spouse is always the one making all the sacrifices/compromises. Which is an unspoken corollary of this wise article.
9
Perhaps a statistical based examination of contemporary marriage might provide some insight, especially for the rather considerable number of people who remained married for periods of 5 decades or more. Having married at the tender age of 22 to my 21 year old wife, what I remember most clearly is the time spent talking about our life goals (career, family, and sense of self). From those extended conversations came not only an awareness of each other, also the the extent to which we shared each others dreams. What we didn't and couldn't know was it was one thing to explore dreams and another to commit to each other in the face of disaster. Personal disasters that almost took my wife's life, followed by the death of our first child. We learned the hard way, the virtue of mutual support, dealing with anger and disappointment, never going for the "jugular" of the other verbally and simply enjoying each other's company. She died 47 years after we wed, 19 years ago, and I was and am a truly fortunate husband. Love? Yeah, if you want to be romantic about it. But binding your life together, creating a family and warmly remembering it all as one's days become numbered is my definition of marrying the right person. It does take time.
788
What you wrote was deeply touching and a tribute to your late wife and your life.
19
The best time to get divorced is before you get married.
32
It's certainly the least expensive option.
3
No, I married the right person and on most days he would agree with regard to me. On days when either of us would think twice, it is not because of each other but rather indirectly due to the demands of a world that both of us would prefer to ignore. He, slightly older and less impressed with the fake niceties of work-a-day lives, has already more or less written all that off. I, still tethered to a salary and real estate and elder care and trying for tenure (good grief, no one should be up for tenure after an age when even her ovaries have called quits) am impatient with him mainly for his resistance to my front-stage existence. So, the author's either-or historical model of reason vs. feeling leaves out the conundrum that one can only be happily marry to the "right" person if one has already come to terms with all those other persons that we allow to intrude upon our lives together as a couple.
22
For most of recorded history, people married for logical sorts of reasons: because her parcel of land adjoined yours, his family had a flourishing business, her father was the magistrate in town, there was a castle to keep up, or both sets of parents subscribed to the same interpretation of a holy text. And from such reasonable marriages, there flowed loneliness, infidelity, abuse, hardness of heart and screams heard through the nursery doors.
Actually reasonable marriages tend to be longer lasting and rewarding. Marriage is a legal contract with few rights and lots of responsibility. Those hoping to find some romantic fantasy a la Hollywood movie are the ones who typically are disappointed.
Actually reasonable marriages tend to be longer lasting and rewarding. Marriage is a legal contract with few rights and lots of responsibility. Those hoping to find some romantic fantasy a la Hollywood movie are the ones who typically are disappointed.
13
"What we really seek is familiarity — which may well complicate any plans we might have had for happiness. We are looking to recreate, within our adult relationships, the feelings we knew so well in childhood."
Wow. It is always shocking to see just how out of touch people like this are who love to declare in simplistic terms the deepest motivations of others not themselves. Slow clap for the ignorant and yet confident arrogance of it all.
Wow. It is always shocking to see just how out of touch people like this are who love to declare in simplistic terms the deepest motivations of others not themselves. Slow clap for the ignorant and yet confident arrogance of it all.
26
dude nyc....to assuage the anguish of your childhood indignity,.....the statement that upset you ,should more accurately read..."We are looking to recreate,OR AVOID,within our adult relationships,the feelings we knew in childhood";but even with the best informed conscious intent,our unconscious impressions from early childhood remain a paradigm,more or less ,for our entire lifetime.
These complications come from the evolving cerebral cortex ,flowering from our ancient limbic "brain", and now interpreting our basic life instincts of self preservation,procreation,and nutrition through the reflective phenomenon of consciousness.We are clearly designed to evolve(i,e.advances in all fields of knowledge)but we have created weapons that can destroy all life,wage war,and recklessly damage our only source of life(the earth)......pursuing artificial and selfish materialistic goals.We accumulate useless and uneconomic excesses of wealth ........despite the fact that nature all around us ,is economic and distributive ,supportive of all life equally.
We must inevitably succumb to natures lesson that consciousness in all life is an everpresent unity of our universe.This will take some time ,if we survive,but the evolution of human consciousness is inevitable by design.Marriage and all our cultural structures and values will be perceived in a new light.
These complications come from the evolving cerebral cortex ,flowering from our ancient limbic "brain", and now interpreting our basic life instincts of self preservation,procreation,and nutrition through the reflective phenomenon of consciousness.We are clearly designed to evolve(i,e.advances in all fields of knowledge)but we have created weapons that can destroy all life,wage war,and recklessly damage our only source of life(the earth)......pursuing artificial and selfish materialistic goals.We accumulate useless and uneconomic excesses of wealth ........despite the fact that nature all around us ,is economic and distributive ,supportive of all life equally.
We must inevitably succumb to natures lesson that consciousness in all life is an everpresent unity of our universe.This will take some time ,if we survive,but the evolution of human consciousness is inevitable by design.Marriage and all our cultural structures and values will be perceived in a new light.
2
Who is this "we" he is nattering on about? What are his credentials for making any of these outlandish claims? Where is his proof that any of this is true for the general population? I certainly don't feel included in any of these statements and suspect that he has wrongly universalized his own experience.
28
yes. agree. this could not be more annoying. I got good news people: not everyone is that neurotic!!!
1
I haven't made that mistake yet, but this is 2016, and I'm a pessimist anyway! Except for the times, when I still think it's the end of the twentieth century, and I'm sill a cockeyed optimist!!!
4
Heaven and hell alone
multiplied in matrimony
multiplied in matrimony
7
Spot on.
I was divorced years ago.
I didn't marry the wrong person. I was the wrong person.
I'd never asked myself "And how are you crazy?" I didn't have a clue.
I was very young - so was he - and I had never assessed what was going on in my own family, why my parents - themselves the children of divorced parents & who argued frequently and seemed to despise each other - were so unhappy. I had no template for what a happy marriage was. I'm not blaming them but if you've never been around a loving, forgiving happy marriage up close, how do you know what that is? It's not like we learn from watching tv.
I made both of us miserable. It took a long time to forgive myself and mourn what I missed up and move on.
Maya Angelou told Oprah: People do what they know how to do. "When you know better, you do better."
Everything you learn in life is useful, maybe just not the way you thought it was at the time. But give it 30 years and what seemed mundane can turn out to be profound.
I was divorced years ago.
I didn't marry the wrong person. I was the wrong person.
I'd never asked myself "And how are you crazy?" I didn't have a clue.
I was very young - so was he - and I had never assessed what was going on in my own family, why my parents - themselves the children of divorced parents & who argued frequently and seemed to despise each other - were so unhappy. I had no template for what a happy marriage was. I'm not blaming them but if you've never been around a loving, forgiving happy marriage up close, how do you know what that is? It's not like we learn from watching tv.
I made both of us miserable. It took a long time to forgive myself and mourn what I missed up and move on.
Maya Angelou told Oprah: People do what they know how to do. "When you know better, you do better."
Everything you learn in life is useful, maybe just not the way you thought it was at the time. But give it 30 years and what seemed mundane can turn out to be profound.
284
I took a big gamble, very uncertain of the outcome. To say it was ... "an interesting experience" is to put it mildly.
13
This essay is ridiculous. It's like reading some individual's specific experience that has been written as a universal law. I don't relate to anything he's talking about, personally, and I find it absurd for him to use the word "we" like he does.
Although maybe I'm just saying this because I married the right person.
Although maybe I'm just saying this because I married the right person.
49
Lucky you
3
Marriage is the outcome of society trying to contain and manage primal instincts. No Romance is involved, just hormones.
For a long term relationship to prosper a couple needs a bounty of romance, defined as a healthy dose of self delusion and magical thinking. Without that on-going romance, a marriage won't have a more forgiving, humorous and kindly perspective.
For a long term relationship to prosper a couple needs a bounty of romance, defined as a healthy dose of self delusion and magical thinking. Without that on-going romance, a marriage won't have a more forgiving, humorous and kindly perspective.
8
Is it possible to overthink and oversimplify in the same article...yup. Relationships are certainly complex, require immeasurable patience, compromise, and respect...because everyone has a story...but at the end of the day, its only as complicated as you decide to make it...man you gotta lighten up.
25
Holy moley. I loved this piece. It's a testament to the value of the study of philosophy (I also loved de Boton's slim but brilliant "The Consolations of Philosophy").
I'm settled at happy at last in my 50s, but I've forwarded the link to my many friends in their 30s who can't figure out where they went wrong in hopes that I can save them some time -- and some pain.
I'm settled at happy at last in my 50s, but I've forwarded the link to my many friends in their 30s who can't figure out where they went wrong in hopes that I can save them some time -- and some pain.
17
American culture is allergic to the tragic. It prefers farce and melodrama.
16
Really makes you think, nice column.
I'm still in my twenties and am seeing a lot of friends get married. I've been asked over and over when my girlfriend and I are moving in or getting married. Both of us are happy living separately and being individuals as much as we enjoy spending time with each other. I've come to the realization that my friends don't understand that a long, lasting relationship, whether it leads to marriage or not, is something that builds and builds. Most people want the immediate feeling of limerance, but love takes time to grow
I'm still in my twenties and am seeing a lot of friends get married. I've been asked over and over when my girlfriend and I are moving in or getting married. Both of us are happy living separately and being individuals as much as we enjoy spending time with each other. I've come to the realization that my friends don't understand that a long, lasting relationship, whether it leads to marriage or not, is something that builds and builds. Most people want the immediate feeling of limerance, but love takes time to grow
22
Not living together is one of the best ways to make a relationship last. It is worth that second rent payment.
2
"limerance" ... Had to look it up. Good word!
2
Banality and straw men, plus ignoring that there are certain characteristics that we can look for that will increase the likelihood we will have a contented marriage. Most important is what Gottman's team calls 'the generosity factor'; if you yourself, and the person you marry, are fundamentally kind, honest and generous, you're much more likely to have a long and happy relationship. And while we can never know another perfectly, if you give yourself time for infatuation to calm, and to really get to know your partner over a couple of years, keeping your eyes open to the strengths and weaknesses the relationship shows, you can definitely increase the chances you'll pick the 'right' person.
But we don't talk to young people about any of this, we let them 'learn' about love and marriage from movies and television and our often poor examples, so they learn it the hard way.
But we don't talk to young people about any of this, we let them 'learn' about love and marriage from movies and television and our often poor examples, so they learn it the hard way.
733
Sexual compatibility is one of the most important factors in a relationship, although I seldom hear it being discussed or considered. How many kids, a dog, a one family or apartment.... these are important, maybe.. but if two people are not sexually compatible the relationship ie marriage is bound to fall apart sooner or later. Just ask Dan Savage and his thousands of readers / advice seekers!
4
Additionally, cities are filling with people who do not gravitate to 'kindness and generosity', but are instead are fixated on their experiential quests. (Everyone has these, but some balance them with other values.)
That kind of person really shouldn't get married. They see each of the character flaws mentioned above as a stopgap indicating time to get off a subway and switch to another track. This contrasts with how other people see such flaws in oneself and their partners as a challenges and means to obtain personal growth.
Arguing that one should subject themselves to a nihilistic, "it is all a failure" view of marriage is just downright sad. There were so many other ways to see things, but the author simply cannot.
That kind of person really shouldn't get married. They see each of the character flaws mentioned above as a stopgap indicating time to get off a subway and switch to another track. This contrasts with how other people see such flaws in oneself and their partners as a challenges and means to obtain personal growth.
Arguing that one should subject themselves to a nihilistic, "it is all a failure" view of marriage is just downright sad. There were so many other ways to see things, but the author simply cannot.
1
Well, speak for yourself. I married the right person!
Linda, if you read this, know that I love you!!!
Linda, if you read this, know that I love you!!!
48
This comment makes me so happy. Dan and Linda, I love your love!
3
This article says "Choosing whom to commit ourselves to is merely a case of identifying which particular variety of suffering we would most like to sacrifice ourselves for." How is it possible to choose a particular variety of suffering when it is asserted that marriage is a "gamble taken by two people who don't know yet who they are or who the other might be"?
I think there is much wisdom in the author's statement that "The person best suited to us is ... the person who can ... tolerate differences with generosity". I'd call that a willingness to compromise.
I think there is much wisdom in the author's statement that "The person best suited to us is ... the person who can ... tolerate differences with generosity". I'd call that a willingness to compromise.
14
My golden rule; everyone I meet is a jerk until proven otherwise. That way I'm sometimes pleasantly surprised, but I'm never disappointed.
14
I'm with the late, great Jonathan Larson: "Life's too short, babe, time is flying
I'm looking for baggage that goes with mine"
The difficulty, of course, is knowing (REALLY knowing) what sort of baggage one actually has, and then determining whether the other parties baggage can 'go with' ones own. That can take a lifetime to figure out, and by that time, the damage done to children and spouses can be also be something that will take a lifetime to recover (if recovery happens at all) from.
I'm looking for baggage that goes with mine"
The difficulty, of course, is knowing (REALLY knowing) what sort of baggage one actually has, and then determining whether the other parties baggage can 'go with' ones own. That can take a lifetime to figure out, and by that time, the damage done to children and spouses can be also be something that will take a lifetime to recover (if recovery happens at all) from.
15
I now have two children in their twenties and dating. I tell them the following:
1. You cannot love another until you love yourself. You can't accept another's flaws until you accept your own. Until you know yourself, you cannot truly know another. To know yourself requires reflection and inner work. It is called Inner Work, because it is truly hard work. You must constantly analyze your actions and thoughts. Are they healthy? Is it based on a flawed view of yourself, or your past? Everyone has had trauma of some kind. You can't carry it around with you the rest of your life, and inflict it on your mate.
2. Treat your mate how you would treat a friend, respecting his or her boundaries and point of view. Most bad marriages I've seen, the spouse treats his or her mate a whole lot worse than they would ever dream of treating a friend. Why is that? So don't abuse the relationship, have respect, don't say things you'll regret later, and your marriage just might last.
1. You cannot love another until you love yourself. You can't accept another's flaws until you accept your own. Until you know yourself, you cannot truly know another. To know yourself requires reflection and inner work. It is called Inner Work, because it is truly hard work. You must constantly analyze your actions and thoughts. Are they healthy? Is it based on a flawed view of yourself, or your past? Everyone has had trauma of some kind. You can't carry it around with you the rest of your life, and inflict it on your mate.
2. Treat your mate how you would treat a friend, respecting his or her boundaries and point of view. Most bad marriages I've seen, the spouse treats his or her mate a whole lot worse than they would ever dream of treating a friend. Why is that? So don't abuse the relationship, have respect, don't say things you'll regret later, and your marriage just might last.
2038
Someone wrote: treat your spouse as an honored guest. That must be incredibly difficult at times.
10
Wise words, indeed...
6
My husband of 5 years and I are in counseling. He grew up in an unstable home with a suicidal mother and her mental illness. I have a history of sexual trauma from my 20s. Unfortunately we both started the inner work after we had our first child. We love each other and I think we will make it, but the writer had a point and so does the commentator. I wish we had both addressed our issues before inflicting them on each other. however I wonder whether we could have understood how damaging they were/would be without someone to trigger them?
264
fMRI Brain scans on new and long term companions are an empirical and scientific way to assess the romantic view of marriage. The same region of the brain lights up in scans in a fraction of long time partners and in new romantic lovers when they are shown pictures of their lovers, demonstrating that the flame of romantic love need not die out but can persist for many years. This emotional feelings is certainly different from the gratitude you feel from a platonic friendship that is supportive in the face of known flaws and disagreements. Perhaps our fMRI tells us that there is hope for the romantic view of marriage and indeed we are capable of marrying right.
19
Well said. We ought to remember that, to be able to love another person, we must be able, and willing, to love ourselves first. And love is an all-forgiving proposition, knowing we humans are perfectly imperfect; and quite right, given that our self-worth, luckily, dos not depend on our achievements or lack thereof. This feeling, independent and away from reason and logic, ought to satisfy our being, and glad we can engage with somebody we can disagree with...without being disagreeable. Only a fool would expect fulfillment of all his/her needs by this other individual he/she is married to. As Cervantes' Don Quijote makes clear: 'those demanding the impossible, even what is possible ought to be denied' to them. There. Incompatibility, raised often enough as the reason for a divorce, is so, but so lame an excuse, to break a deadly routine of taking each other for granted.
6
Thank you. I think this is a great piece.
4
Good Heavens, how does one decide a priori whether the chosen partner is, or is not, the right one? In dynastic marriages, the two selected for, or condemned to, matrimony may control their tempers by their recognition of the higher motives of their union. All others, who are misled into marriage by the emotional state known as "love", should be thoroughly advised on the psychological and materiel consequences of a break-up, and they should take appropriate measures for such an eventuality.
4
As one who's been married to a soulmate for almost 33 years (together for almost 35), I can attest that there is deep wisdom in this piece -- wisdom not easily acquired, let me hasten to add (who is this Alain de Botton?) -- especially in its closing paragraph:
"Romanticism has been unhelpful to us; it is a harsh philosophy. It has made a lot of what we go through in marriage seem exceptional and appalling. We end up lonely and convinced that our union, with its imperfections, is not “normal.” We should learn to accommodate ourselves to “wrongness,” striving always to adopt a more forgiving, humorous and kindly perspective on its multiple examples in ourselves and in our partners."
It's the kind of saying that, in my youth, I might have framed and hung on the wall. After all these years, I don't have to.
"Romanticism has been unhelpful to us; it is a harsh philosophy. It has made a lot of what we go through in marriage seem exceptional and appalling. We end up lonely and convinced that our union, with its imperfections, is not “normal.” We should learn to accommodate ourselves to “wrongness,” striving always to adopt a more forgiving, humorous and kindly perspective on its multiple examples in ourselves and in our partners."
It's the kind of saying that, in my youth, I might have framed and hung on the wall. After all these years, I don't have to.
19
Some people hang dead animals on their walls.
2
This is one of the best things I've ever read.
19
This is why the devotion to self-gratification fails. As Gary Thomas says, "What if God made marriage not to make us happy, but to make us holy?' And I'm sure there's a secular or Buddhist version of this. When we appear to be unselfish, it is only guilt. Do not think that all you have to do is find "The One", and then you will effortlessly cruise. I had had a deal with myself that I would never be with a woman who had chronic health problems. Of course, I could only find happiness with a woman who did. This is what life is like.
8
There are more than one of "The One." Live long enough and you will find that out. But there are not a lot of "The One".
Although I've never wanted to marry, I found this fatuous. Go to today's wedding section in Sunday Styles, or any week's, really, and you can see the stories of people who are getting married who know each other over years and have experienced each other in all kinds of situations. It seems to me that a lot of marrying couples know each other quite well and know themselves fairly well.
Sometimes you get the feeling that an author is just generalizing from his own, usually bad, experience, and applying his particular situation to others. I don't know anything about the author's life, but that's the feeling I got here. I've seen more interesting and true pieces about couples in Modern Bride Magazine and on Thought Catalog.
Sometimes you get the feeling that an author is just generalizing from his own, usually bad, experience, and applying his particular situation to others. I don't know anything about the author's life, but that's the feeling I got here. I've seen more interesting and true pieces about couples in Modern Bride Magazine and on Thought Catalog.
351
While a person becholar he is in a unsecular condition. You do not know who the next person and for this next person you wait for long or not you always have thoughts whether is right man. So you always lose time and yourself.
Catch him if you feel easy with do not lose to avoid another time loosing.
Catch him if you feel easy with do not lose to avoid another time loosing.
1
My mommy mom wisely advised, "there is no on perfect person out there, honey. You will meet many people along the way.... You need to make a decision, and then work at it." It doesn't always work, but it IS always work, and when it does work, it is pretty special.
15
I've been married 27 years. With very few exceptions, most of our friends have been married for 25+ years and we all have marriages that are far more than companionship.
When together, we as couples try to figure out why our marriages have lasted so long and why we would pick exactly the same person if we could roll back the calendar.
Our general--whether male or female--consensus is that we all started with intense physical attraction to our spouses that included an attraction to repeated, concrete evidence that our spouse was hardworking, responsible, loyal, and stable.
We tell our children they must choose carefully; there must be a strong physical attraction/satisfaction combined with an abiding respect for the actions of the other person over a period of time.
When together, we as couples try to figure out why our marriages have lasted so long and why we would pick exactly the same person if we could roll back the calendar.
Our general--whether male or female--consensus is that we all started with intense physical attraction to our spouses that included an attraction to repeated, concrete evidence that our spouse was hardworking, responsible, loyal, and stable.
We tell our children they must choose carefully; there must be a strong physical attraction/satisfaction combined with an abiding respect for the actions of the other person over a period of time.
46
Best comment yet.
1
The marriages that you describe including your own and let's face it, most successful ones, are really a function of demographics. You and your peers are likely successful, middle to upper class, have money and resources, are able to get help when needed. Just like most people who get married these days.
It's hard to be in a marriage, even if it will be better for you economically and socially, when you are poor, have to work three jobs, live in unsafe neighborhoods, and under constant stress.
This column is written for people who are reasonably well to do and subscribe to the NYT.
It's hard to be in a marriage, even if it will be better for you economically and socially, when you are poor, have to work three jobs, live in unsafe neighborhoods, and under constant stress.
This column is written for people who are reasonably well to do and subscribe to the NYT.
6
Cohabitation may help a couple test the waters prior to marriage. I really enjoyed reading the recent Modern Love column by Jasmine Jaksic. She talks about stress-testing a relationship. Online matchmaking, when it works and when people answer questions honestly, gives you a good sense of a potential partner's likes, dislikes, phase in life, and sometimes, quirks.
I think most married folks ponder what it would have been like if they had not tied the knot or had married someone else. Would I had been happier single? People will always disappoint you, but if you start counting your blessings and quit keeping scores, you'll realize that even if you hadn't married the perfect person who is 100% right for you, he or she has more than once made you super happy and loved. Unless of course you're in an abusive relationship or loveless relationship. In that case, get out of there! Better to be alone then!
I think most married folks ponder what it would have been like if they had not tied the knot or had married someone else. Would I had been happier single? People will always disappoint you, but if you start counting your blessings and quit keeping scores, you'll realize that even if you hadn't married the perfect person who is 100% right for you, he or she has more than once made you super happy and loved. Unless of course you're in an abusive relationship or loveless relationship. In that case, get out of there! Better to be alone then!
11
Tolstoy remarked " All happy families are alike. All unhappy families differ in their particular misery." Or something like that.
I think something similar holds in marriages.
There is a beguiling pattern in the writer's words. I wonder if he wasn't seduced himself by what he wrote. Like Narcissus.
Marriage is friendship. It needs give and take. It needs work. Everyday.
Life and good health are blessings. Whether you are single or with a loving partner, you are blessed.
I think something similar holds in marriages.
There is a beguiling pattern in the writer's words. I wonder if he wasn't seduced himself by what he wrote. Like Narcissus.
Marriage is friendship. It needs give and take. It needs work. Everyday.
Life and good health are blessings. Whether you are single or with a loving partner, you are blessed.
7
A friend said it best, when it comes to love, you can't trust your own judgment.
9
I have been utterly convinced by the writer's arguments for years but have never before been able to articulate nor come across more clear articulation of this solemn truth about love and commitment.
I know many who will decry this pessimistic position and identify them by their own failed romantic trajectories. I know fewer who will agree with the veracity of the claims staked so eloquently herein. I am grateful to count myself among this latter tribe having celebrated yesterday my 14th wedding anniversary (18 years all-told) with a frustratingly aggravating yet lovingly supportive man. Not the only one I have known to fit the bill (another falsehood of romanticism that there is only one for each of us), but the one who, at the moment seemed right, and despite ample evidence to the contrary (for both of us) has endured steadfastly with me.
I know many who will decry this pessimistic position and identify them by their own failed romantic trajectories. I know fewer who will agree with the veracity of the claims staked so eloquently herein. I am grateful to count myself among this latter tribe having celebrated yesterday my 14th wedding anniversary (18 years all-told) with a frustratingly aggravating yet lovingly supportive man. Not the only one I have known to fit the bill (another falsehood of romanticism that there is only one for each of us), but the one who, at the moment seemed right, and despite ample evidence to the contrary (for both of us) has endured steadfastly with me.
535
I don't see this piece as pessimistic. Quite the opposite, in fact. (I have been married almost three decades, to a man who is perfectly imperfect.)
5
My mother made all the important decisions in her marriage with my father. Where they would live, how they would spend their money, where I would go to school, what cars they would buy, where they would go on vacation, and what movies to go to.
It’s worked out quite well for my father. All he had to do was make the money that allowed her to do these things; which left the rest of his time free for trying to rid the world of nuclear weapons and establishing peace in the Middle East. Which is what he had his mind on in the first place.
It was an excellent division of labor. While he never made any progress on nuclear weapons or the Middle East, his relationship with my mother was always very good. Of course, it helped a lot that they loved each other.
We ought to be figuring out ways to get back to marriages like that. Where both parties get what they want.
It’s worked out quite well for my father. All he had to do was make the money that allowed her to do these things; which left the rest of his time free for trying to rid the world of nuclear weapons and establishing peace in the Middle East. Which is what he had his mind on in the first place.
It was an excellent division of labor. While he never made any progress on nuclear weapons or the Middle East, his relationship with my mother was always very good. Of course, it helped a lot that they loved each other.
We ought to be figuring out ways to get back to marriages like that. Where both parties get what they want.
21
'...where both parties get what they want.' What happened to 'the PEACE' and 'nuclear DISARMAMENT'? I guess, as part and parcel of any hopes and dreams for survival of the human species, we'll just have to be satisfied with nicer material goods after all.
1
Brilliant article. And while it might not have been written from a faith perspective, it in many ways illuminates what a Christian marriage should be, two people building love through acts of acceptance, sacrifice, and forgiveness.
10
"Christian" marriages for centuries in practise were arranged and based on exploitation of women.
5
Feeling wanted, feeling needed, feeling respected, feeling loved, complimenting for no reason, bringing out the best in the other person, and doing the all of the above in return. Too much to ask, I know. In the end it's simple. People just want to feel included, respected, loved. All the disagreements don't matter.
17
I married the right man 44 years ago. We share values and goals. We love, laugh, and cry together. We have huge differences. We respect each other and feel lucky to have shared our lives together
15
What I see here is quite a bit of double talk. While I agree that romanticism isn't the same as love, and I also agree that love is a choice - not an event, I don't agree that 'we', whoever that is, need to resolve to accept to stay with a person with whom we have nothing in common.
I do like how the illustrator, Marion Fayolle, imagined the subject of the written piece. It is noticeable that the woman is who she was from the beginning and the man is all-together a different person. Meanwhile, that discovery leads her into understanding it is her problem because she did not unearth his stealthy actual personality prior to making a commitment, hence she should accept she is the one who must adjust to a life she never bargained for.
Been there, done that. I have not changed much in my 66 years other than accrue life experience. I married 2 men who changed the day after we were married. With the second one I went to 3 marriage councilors who all gave me this same double talk I read here. I left the first after being beaten by him and the second after he broke my daughter's arm. Then I didn't even date again because I believe all men were false, liars, and irrational. At 50 I found that wasn't true. After taking the time to know the man I married him. He didn't change. It is how a marriage is suppose to be. I'm here to tell you that yes indeed you can find a person whom fits you and who you will fit.
I do like how the illustrator, Marion Fayolle, imagined the subject of the written piece. It is noticeable that the woman is who she was from the beginning and the man is all-together a different person. Meanwhile, that discovery leads her into understanding it is her problem because she did not unearth his stealthy actual personality prior to making a commitment, hence she should accept she is the one who must adjust to a life she never bargained for.
Been there, done that. I have not changed much in my 66 years other than accrue life experience. I married 2 men who changed the day after we were married. With the second one I went to 3 marriage councilors who all gave me this same double talk I read here. I left the first after being beaten by him and the second after he broke my daughter's arm. Then I didn't even date again because I believe all men were false, liars, and irrational. At 50 I found that wasn't true. After taking the time to know the man I married him. He didn't change. It is how a marriage is suppose to be. I'm here to tell you that yes indeed you can find a person whom fits you and who you will fit.
651
Also been there. And I have a friend hoping the 3rd will be different too. Where and how do people learn to put forth an image until they get married and then their real self emerges? Does our culture's romanticism produce sociopaths? Yes I had lots of work myself and did it, it all paid off with #3 who had been in the same situation. Now loving is easy and a joy.
2
Susannah,
It took me 30 years to figure out that I was in love with the idea of "marriage" instead of the reality. Most people wont understand what this means but after four marriages I'm here to tell you it is a very easy thing to do. I created the perfect spouse in my head and could only see that future spouse when I looked at betrothed. That image crumbled just after the honeymoon when reality set in. All three of my marriages had the same theme. We fell in love, talked about the future and agreed that we loved each other enough to make it work. It never worked out,
This time (my fourth) is different. I love my husband and strangely more for the complications in our marriage then for the easy times. My husband and I agreed before we married that if things ever get tough we need to focus on "us". It works amazingly when we sit down and start coming up with "us" plans. We learn so much about each other and how to help the other person work through whatever is holding them back or causing strive. Its so ironic how I found my perfect spouse not because of who he was when I met him but because we bonded and agreed to put our love and trust in each other and not into the marriage our bond created. He is my perfect spouse because of the "us" bond we have and the promise to always keep "us" healthy and happy. I now understand is is not about who you or your spouse is when you marry, but how you both work together to find your perfect "us" as your marriage grows.
It took me 30 years to figure out that I was in love with the idea of "marriage" instead of the reality. Most people wont understand what this means but after four marriages I'm here to tell you it is a very easy thing to do. I created the perfect spouse in my head and could only see that future spouse when I looked at betrothed. That image crumbled just after the honeymoon when reality set in. All three of my marriages had the same theme. We fell in love, talked about the future and agreed that we loved each other enough to make it work. It never worked out,
This time (my fourth) is different. I love my husband and strangely more for the complications in our marriage then for the easy times. My husband and I agreed before we married that if things ever get tough we need to focus on "us". It works amazingly when we sit down and start coming up with "us" plans. We learn so much about each other and how to help the other person work through whatever is holding them back or causing strive. Its so ironic how I found my perfect spouse not because of who he was when I met him but because we bonded and agreed to put our love and trust in each other and not into the marriage our bond created. He is my perfect spouse because of the "us" bond we have and the promise to always keep "us" healthy and happy. I now understand is is not about who you or your spouse is when you marry, but how you both work together to find your perfect "us" as your marriage grows.
3
You have no faults?
4
So this article isn't a warning that we will all inevitably marry the wrong person, it's a pep talk on living with that disconcerting fact once we realize we've done it (or done it again). If the "wrong person" means any other person, then okay, I get it. This is an existential article, an attempt to help us live with the dilemma of needing closeness and freedom at the same time. In cultures where marriages are arranged and mandatory, love is either irrelevant or expected to evolve over time if the parties are lucky. In our society, marriage is a cultural imperative. Look at how hard we gays have fought for the right to marry, so we could put our wedding announcements in the NY Times and then later go through painful divorces and child custody suits, just like our straight friends and relatives.
I once asked a gay male couple about the secret to their longevity: thirty-five years as boyfriends and then husbands when the laws changed. They told me the key was "ignore-ance." Pay attention to the things you love in the other person, and ignore the stuff that makes you want to poison their oatmeal.
I agree with the author: the best potential mate is the "not overly wrong" person. Or, as I prefer to think of it, the right wrong person.
I once asked a gay male couple about the secret to their longevity: thirty-five years as boyfriends and then husbands when the laws changed. They told me the key was "ignore-ance." Pay attention to the things you love in the other person, and ignore the stuff that makes you want to poison their oatmeal.
I agree with the author: the best potential mate is the "not overly wrong" person. Or, as I prefer to think of it, the right wrong person.
1682
Brilliantly said. Bravo!
The "right" wrong person---I like that.
2
"Ignore-ance" That is AWESOME advice!
4
Every person is a monster close up.
8
Hell is other people?
3
This column brings to mind Ambrose Bierce's definition of a bride: "A woman with a fine prospect of happiness behind her."
13
There is a definite shortage of people who are "are too right — too balanced, mature, understanding and reliable". I waited for such person, successfully, in that one regard, but marriage in your mid-late 30's does not work out for society, or for the individual that does not have the exceptional economic and professional means.
Even at our mature age of marriage there is a constant reinvention needed to make our relationship work. We're both committed to be together for life, but that is not the best course for couples truly in the wrong relationship.
Demographic trends are for people to marry at a later age, and I think this is a positive development for the health of the relationship and the individuals in it, but it compresses mid-life into a blur of competing economical demands: college tuition, aging parents, retirement saving.
Even at our mature age of marriage there is a constant reinvention needed to make our relationship work. We're both committed to be together for life, but that is not the best course for couples truly in the wrong relationship.
Demographic trends are for people to marry at a later age, and I think this is a positive development for the health of the relationship and the individuals in it, but it compresses mid-life into a blur of competing economical demands: college tuition, aging parents, retirement saving.
9
Of course a partner is not Prince Charming or Ms. Perfect. Of course you will be sorely disappointed if you actually anticipated this. The most dangerous comment in this article, and the most naive is: "We musn't abandon him or her..." Can adults really be abandoned? Mentally healthy people understand that the real danger in life is abandoning oneself. Adults are not babies, children, or fragile flowers. You weren't put on this earth to cure your spouse of alcoholism, other addictions, domestic violence, rages, mental illness, or personality disorders by remaining with them if they have no interest in or capacity to change. Leaving is not, in any shape or form, abandoning this person. It is often a gift to them. In not abandoning ourselves, we not only teach those around us what healthy relationships looks like, we are able to create them.
73
Why will you marry the wrong person? Because most men are immoral, objectionable sacks, and most women are irrational at best and downright crazy at worst--i.e. it's simple math and, especially in the U.S., there aren't enough decent humans to go around.
21
Well, you are a genius. Too bad most of us didn't know this way back when. Some people are, of course, more wrong than others. If you are lucky enough to find and choose someone "less wrong" for you, you'll both still need curiosity, effort and a sense of humor to create a marriage.
12
Simply stated, marriage is about 'we' not 'me'. So, if you think otherwise, don't ever get married.
24
How is it that the NyTimes and its authors continue to publish articles from such a Eurocentric and marginal point of view. Castle adjoining yours really?! Couldn't read it.
7
The castle comment was tongue in cheek. Lighten up!
4
How on earth does that one sentence make this article Eurocentric?
2
"WE need to swap the Romantic view for a tragic (and at points comedic) awareness that every human will frustrate, anger, annoy, madden and disappoint us — and we will (without any malice) do the same to them." Pope Francis takes a similar tack in The Joy of Love. Near the end of the exhortation (Section (?) 320), he says that the "principle of spiritual realism requires that one spouse not presume that the other can completely satisfy his or her needs.The spiritual journey of each--as Dietrich Bonhoeffer nicely puts it--needs to help them to a certain 'disillusionment' with regard to the other, to stop expecting from that person something which is proper to the love of God alone."
9
I wonder which one of the committee of unmarried males that wrote that document produced that passage?
7
As long as it reliably produces more unhappy people, "marriage" doesn't care what anybody thinks.
13
When my daughter asks me how long did passionate romance last in my marriage to her father (together for 28 years now), I tell her that it ended the day after the wedding ceremony. I’ve given her some pointers that exist, and I wish existed, in my marriage – sense of humor, small gestures of affection and kindness towards your partner, providing space to your partner/spouse to air grievances, and forgiving even if you cannot forget. I’ve cautioned her that if you find yourself depressed or very anxious on a long-term basis, the marriage is probably not working. If things are good sometimes and bad sometimes – that’s likely normal. But if you find yourself happy and well adjusted all the time – Get Out – something’s clearly not right!
23
This hit extremely close to home, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Scarily well-written.
36
Some will get lucky but most will have a spouse or three. Marriage is a game of chance.
24
Best to skip it completely!
Negotiate a fair and comprehensive contract regarding asset dissolution and child raising responsibilities.
Make a solid business relationship - strive for emotional enrichment - don't seek sexual exclusivity.
Most marriages fail horribly and the remainder are mostly about managing pain.
Negotiate a fair and comprehensive contract regarding asset dissolution and child raising responsibilities.
Make a solid business relationship - strive for emotional enrichment - don't seek sexual exclusivity.
Most marriages fail horribly and the remainder are mostly about managing pain.
5
This ignores the presence of children of this union/marriage. That complicates the whole picture. The urge to produce an image of one's self is inherent in the mind of the individual. The recognition of a finite lifespan versus the future is an undeniable contradiction.
4
Well this is an exceptionally strong, well thought out piece on a very powerful part of life. Matching up with an open ended time frame is hard in any set of decisions like career, joining military, attending higher learning, etc.
Having been through a 15-year marriage - that she left (her on to a second 15
years, me none) much of this rings so true. We had married early as college juniors and really got on great. Grew on each other. Problem might have been that being both painters we grew out of each other. It just ended.
I doubt if reading this opinion piece at age 21 would have made any difference since our feelings were the driver. Others around us used planning as basis for decision making and delayed. They too ended in divorce and same set of remarriage for one, none for other was common.
Point is to just ride the beast, there's no figuring it out.
Having been through a 15-year marriage - that she left (her on to a second 15
years, me none) much of this rings so true. We had married early as college juniors and really got on great. Grew on each other. Problem might have been that being both painters we grew out of each other. It just ended.
I doubt if reading this opinion piece at age 21 would have made any difference since our feelings were the driver. Others around us used planning as basis for decision making and delayed. They too ended in divorce and same set of remarriage for one, none for other was common.
Point is to just ride the beast, there's no figuring it out.
25
Failed marriages are a bit like automobile accidents. It's always the other guy's fault, is it not?
19
The brilliant Yogi Berra said, "If the world was perfect it wouldn't be." The same could be said for marriage. The best combination of traits is, love, mutual respect and a commitment to fight fair. Couples that don't disagree, and care enough to fight about things split up. I'm starting the 30th year of my marriage - this is true for us. Still in love.
16
Familiarity is the key that opens the door. Respect and trust keeps it open.
I know, I have 30 years under my belt married to a family law-divorce attorney.
I know, I have 30 years under my belt married to a family law-divorce attorney.
11
I think marriages should automatically dissolve after children are reared. Couples would then be free to date around, and return to each other if they both agreed.
I am ecstatically single, after a 20 year marriage that ended 15 yeas ago, when raising children was finished. I will never date again. There is not even one compelling reason to couple up again, and about a hundred reasons not to. Most married people I know in my age group can be assessed according to degrees of misery.
Every night before I go to sleep, I am profoundly grateful to be independent. The only recurring nightmare I have, is that I am married.
For those happily wed for decades, congratulations. I firmly believe you are exceptional and way outside the norm.
I am ecstatically single, after a 20 year marriage that ended 15 yeas ago, when raising children was finished. I will never date again. There is not even one compelling reason to couple up again, and about a hundred reasons not to. Most married people I know in my age group can be assessed according to degrees of misery.
Every night before I go to sleep, I am profoundly grateful to be independent. The only recurring nightmare I have, is that I am married.
For those happily wed for decades, congratulations. I firmly believe you are exceptional and way outside the norm.
39
A recipe for a (somewhat) successful marriage (in just four words): expect less, laugh more.
31
I never realized how completely benighted I am and how many mistakes I make, indeed how I live in utter darkness, until you, who, for reasons as yet unclear to me, seem to understand everything, wrote this splendid piece. Thank you so very much.
21
I agree people often marry for irrational romantic reasons but in my experience that's not why they divorce. The lack of intelligent disagreement is precisely what kills romance and brings on deep resentments that poison the relationship slowly but surely.
It is possible to have lasting romance over many years but only when both people trust they're being genuinely heard and cared for...even when they agree to disagree. Maybe romance in a marriage just signals that the relationship is strong and healthy.
My two cents is to never give up expecting romance. Just know that it's not flowers, candy and jewelry that brings it. It's a partner who'll make a funny face at you when you're being irrational.
It is possible to have lasting romance over many years but only when both people trust they're being genuinely heard and cared for...even when they agree to disagree. Maybe romance in a marriage just signals that the relationship is strong and healthy.
My two cents is to never give up expecting romance. Just know that it's not flowers, candy and jewelry that brings it. It's a partner who'll make a funny face at you when you're being irrational.
19
Married 30yrs here. I do not claim to have a perfect marriage but it takes a lot of work. It helped that we lived together for 3yrs before marriage.
13
>>>>
“On the surface of it, the lover wants the beloved. This, of course is really not the case.”
Anne Carson, Eros the Bittersweet
“On the surface of it, the lover wants the beloved. This, of course is really not the case.”
Anne Carson, Eros the Bittersweet
4
No one should expect perfection but there is an expectation of reasonable consistancy with the values in your partner after the vows have been shared. That too, can not be assured.
With my last and current marrage it took years to discover a disconcerting nature of my spouses in the way they would reciprocate my support-if at all.
I learned early that my self validation is sufficient and got a hobby.
Steady as she goes.
With my last and current marrage it took years to discover a disconcerting nature of my spouses in the way they would reciprocate my support-if at all.
I learned early that my self validation is sufficient and got a hobby.
Steady as she goes.
4
Fifty-two years ago, when we married, people had different expectations. Today people want to be entertained by their significant other. My husband and I are complete opposites. We appreciate each others abilities because we don't possess them ourselves. I fear for my grandchildren's choices as their most used word is "boring".
This is the best article I have read in the NY Times since they headed down the road of "fluff" and fronting for the Liberal Left.
This is the best article I have read in the NY Times since they headed down the road of "fluff" and fronting for the Liberal Left.
9
This is one of the more realistic,helpful and spot on assessments of relationships I've read in a long time. Thank you. Everyone is "wrong" for everyone else in some way--it's up to us to do the work of negotiating that. It's a good reason why extramarital affairs are such bulls***. Ultimately, when the haze of fantasy wears off, THAT person will be just as "wrong" as the one you left.
21
Romantic love often devolves into efficiency and survival when the children come. Under the stresses of the early parenting years, just about any spouse can seem like the wrong person. I tend to think that how one views their spouse, their marriage and life together has everything to do with an individual's personality and expectations and very little to do with the actual dynamics of the relationship.
16
As the old saying goes "expect the worst possible result and you will never be disappointed.
4
Sincerely felt, but also wrong. I know it's awful, but some people don't feel alone in the crowded room, and some marriages are happy, even if they're not always harmonious.
It's become fashionable to say that the key to happiness, especially in relationships, is to expect less of everybody. I can see why, but I'm afraid the truth is much more terrible than Dan Savage's "nobody settles without settling." First, you have to stop thinking of marriage as any more evolved than biological attraction-just like biological attraction, it works because it does. My wife likes dusky complexions and black, curly hair. Weirdly, so do I. Neither of us has either, both of us dated mostly to type, and when we met, it made no difference. You're hungry for somebody because you are, not because you count your way up their bodies. You marry somebody for the same reason. You can only settle if you still care about your list; you're never settling for the one who sets it alight.
Which is terrible, because, yes, it's luck. More terrible because, yes. Then you work your heart out, not to be somebody you're not (bad idea) but to be what she/he/~ deserves. That's life, and it makes us better-it's how we build something (or someone) together.
But when nobody else is around, when the striving is done for the day, when the doors are closed and you're on the couch, I do think gets simpler. Be honest, be reasonable, be decent.
And marry somebody who'll do the same.
It's become fashionable to say that the key to happiness, especially in relationships, is to expect less of everybody. I can see why, but I'm afraid the truth is much more terrible than Dan Savage's "nobody settles without settling." First, you have to stop thinking of marriage as any more evolved than biological attraction-just like biological attraction, it works because it does. My wife likes dusky complexions and black, curly hair. Weirdly, so do I. Neither of us has either, both of us dated mostly to type, and when we met, it made no difference. You're hungry for somebody because you are, not because you count your way up their bodies. You marry somebody for the same reason. You can only settle if you still care about your list; you're never settling for the one who sets it alight.
Which is terrible, because, yes, it's luck. More terrible because, yes. Then you work your heart out, not to be somebody you're not (bad idea) but to be what she/he/~ deserves. That's life, and it makes us better-it's how we build something (or someone) together.
But when nobody else is around, when the striving is done for the day, when the doors are closed and you're on the couch, I do think gets simpler. Be honest, be reasonable, be decent.
And marry somebody who'll do the same.
19
Speaking as someone who's been part of a marriage for nearly 49 years, here's my image of what happens during marriage - if you stick it out, through thick and thin.
Two people, who fall in love, are like rocks with jutting angles all over them. Uncut gems, you could say. And over many years of "togetherness" slowly those angles become smoother and smoother, so that the two fit more and more easily together, more rounded, minus the rough edges.
Old age is wonderful! Don't give up!
Two people, who fall in love, are like rocks with jutting angles all over them. Uncut gems, you could say. And over many years of "togetherness" slowly those angles become smoother and smoother, so that the two fit more and more easily together, more rounded, minus the rough edges.
Old age is wonderful! Don't give up!
144
I had I had a wise friend who said that you actually know who you are marrying--you just don't always admit it to yourself until it's too late. (She also said if you can't stand it, get out. If you can, shut up!)
15
And hopefully the craziness is compatible with their mates. This piece bestows wisdom most people are lucky to learn after being married for years, and dispels the thinking that marriage is not worth pursing unless it is an illusion.
6
As a late twenty something, this really speaks to me. The pressure not only to marry, but to marry someone you're madly in love with, who completes you, can feel crushing.
Lately the question I've been asking myself is not, "do I love him?" but more "is he kind?" In the long run, I think the latter will matter more.
Lately the question I've been asking myself is not, "do I love him?" but more "is he kind?" In the long run, I think the latter will matter more.
915
@Audry, Only 1~4% of the entire population around you is "in love" as far as couples are involved. The 'marriage business' is a massive multi-billion dollar enterprise and has been across decades. I still do not understand it as it's outdated and nearly irrelevant in 2016 as no matter what you do, you and your partner are bound to land up in divorce, which essentially means that this relationship has run it's course and it's time to move on. Best to just live with someone for about 7 years before putting any wild legal ties on it. Also, stick with your inner heart with all of this i.e. "Does he love me?" "Do I love him" etc. This is perhaps the first generation that has really attempted to grapple with that elusive quality of mutual affection, authentic deep caring, true intimacy and then friendship, support and bonding. Very few if any find this in the general population as they never ever experienced it as children.
"Lorde" ( Ella Marie ) , gifted and very grounded writer and recording artist from New Zealand has two wonderful parents as well as a sister, and her own parents just recently were married after some 30 years of living together. Smart and wise people. It was a celebration of their relationship together as a family I suspect. Something for all to ponder.
"Lorde" ( Ella Marie ) , gifted and very grounded writer and recording artist from New Zealand has two wonderful parents as well as a sister, and her own parents just recently were married after some 30 years of living together. Smart and wise people. It was a celebration of their relationship together as a family I suspect. Something for all to ponder.
1
Right you are.
1
Marriage is as mysterious an endeavor as any our hearts or minds could ever anticipate. So why not go into the arrangement, as I expect almost all do, with an open heart and mind.
Rather than pessimism, -enlightened optimism- seems a bit more consistent with the early stages of marriage, and could very well carry you through “so long as we both shall live.” Reading this often gloomy elegy on marriage is indeed enlightening for us long married optimists.
To paraphrase the author; ‘This philosophy of -enlightened optimism- offers a solution to a lot of distress and agitation around marriage. It might sound odd, but -enlightened optimism- relieves the excessive imaginative pressure that our romantic culture places upon marriage. The failure of one particular partner to save us from our grief and melancholy is not an argument against that person and no sign that a union deserves to fail or be upgraded.’
Rather than pessimism, -enlightened optimism- seems a bit more consistent with the early stages of marriage, and could very well carry you through “so long as we both shall live.” Reading this often gloomy elegy on marriage is indeed enlightening for us long married optimists.
To paraphrase the author; ‘This philosophy of -enlightened optimism- offers a solution to a lot of distress and agitation around marriage. It might sound odd, but -enlightened optimism- relieves the excessive imaginative pressure that our romantic culture places upon marriage. The failure of one particular partner to save us from our grief and melancholy is not an argument against that person and no sign that a union deserves to fail or be upgraded.’
16
Marriage is not all romance, or love, or sex. It is also a job, a business partnership and takes work, by both parties. It takes effort and self-awareness. It takes ability to accept differences, to agree to disagree. It takes openness to new experiences your partner enjoys as well as mutual interests. It takes ultimate trust, emotionally and financially. It takes compromise.
There is no way to be a perfect partner, but there are a million different ways to be a great partner.
There is no way to be a perfect partner, but there are a million different ways to be a great partner.
155
Isn't there an expression that marriage is finding that one special person to annoy the rest of your life.
32
A wonderful column. Really good insights on entering into and working through marriage. Perhaps useful thoughts about getting through life as well. Having experienced a long marriage, 57 years and counting, it seems we are always striving to understand and adapt to what the day may bring. As Mick Jagger might say "...you don't always get what you want" but that is not the issue. Listening, understanding, always open to possibilities and a shared love for popular music I think may keep us going for a few more years. Looking back, I think I picked the right person. I'm pretty sure she did too.
45
I like this piece but the artwork at the top is sexist. Men marry women who who turn out to be different than the projections during the early days of love. The image reinforces that tired stereotype of the marriage-hunting woman. Not to mention the reality of same sex marriages.
67
The image reinforces a tired steroetype because it doesn't portray a same sex marriage? You know, I'm 100% pro same-sex marriage, but that's ridiculous. Must every doodle of a newlywed couple now show multiple couples, to make sure every possible permutation of marriage is covered? It's this kind of over the line thinking that makes people start mumbling nonsense like "politically correct libs are destroying the country bla bla bla".
15
But if the artwork was the other way round, wouldn't that be "sexist" too?
9
Why 20 year old's are asked to decide the rest of their entire lives and everyone is shocked when at 30 they divorce is one of the most cruel constructs modern man/woman faces. I knew that 40 years ago and I was right. Yes, I would rather be right than happy. I knew that too. I never married and was castigated in the family. My parents were married and stayed that way forever. Like I said, 'modern' man or woman.
15
Learning to be people who are good at disagreement takes time. Thirty-five years and counting. We're getting there. Finally figuring out that not a whole lot else matters, so long as you can come home at night and make each other laugh.
79
One minor quibble: this article might give the impression that "marriage of feeling" is something new, but that's hardly true. Even in the most primitive of foraging or agricultural societies, young people often form romantic attachments that are contrary to what is expected of them. And depending on their perseverance, and the rigidity of the particular society they live in, they sometimes even end up together! The idealization of romantic love as the only legitimate foundation for marriage may be new, but romantic love itself, and marriages based upon it, are an ancient part of the human condition.
30
One of the more sensible views of marriage I have read in a very long time. This from one who, by the grace of God, has been married for 30 years. Being able to see each other as people who do not have to bear the weight of each other's soul really helps to lighten the loads that invariably come our way.
24
Or, sometimes you marry your high school sweetheart. This June 4th, it will be 50 years for my husband and me. Sometimes the reason(s) that we think the person is wrong are legitimate and sometimes it's just that we think there must be someone more exciting or good looking out there. Someone we missed. Staying married to someone isn't always easy, but getting rid of someone is especially easy. No one seems to want to figure out the problems and find solutions any more. It is too easy to just quit. Divorce is easy. Staying is hard, but sometimes, just sometimes, it is the right thing to do. From the viewpoint of 50 years of learning and discovery about my partner, I can recommend sticking around a while to see how it all comes out.
112
Divorce isn't easy, either.
9
Sounds like you are just patting yourself on the back. Since you never "got rid of someone", I don't see how you can tell that its "especially easy". Divorce is not easy. It can be long and destructive and painful, both emotionally and financially. I think that 50 years with only one partner has provided a very narrow field of experience.
12
Clearly you have never gone through divorce. There's nothing easy about it. Think twice before you say something so ignorant and without empathy.
15
My husband and I were very open about our flaws while we were dating.
The key is to find someone you with whom you can discuss matters you're scared to bring up. It's about communication.
The key is to find someone you with whom you can discuss matters you're scared to bring up. It's about communication.
114
Very good. I think this captures it for me. Finding Happiness is more are your own ability to accept yourself and your partners imperfections, life's imperfection. It's sad letting go of the romantic ideal but happiness and contentment can be found if you do.
15
From my own perspective there only three critical questions as to what conditions will usually maintain a marriage. Are your values in reasonable proximity? Will you be home every night absent required solo trips and hospitalizations? Are you both willing if things get intractable to see the best therapist humanly possible in your locale and invest your entire soul into the marital therapy?
11
Why am I not surprised when I see that the author is the ever provocative Alain de Boton? :) I think the mistake is our having thought there can be only one person who can be everything to us. There loneliness lies! I think.
23
Just live with them for a few years, see them go through good and bad times, see them under stress. Then if years later, you two are still together, tie the know.
Young weddings look cute, but do you really know some 20 something who has never had to struggle in life? and sorry, going through college and 'studying for a major' does not count, you can always repeat that test. Going through a crisis at work and at home do not get a redo.
And wait some years. Your 30 something self will know a lot more, than your 20 something You who thought drama at the club was the most stressful situation ever. People are living a lot longer now, wait it out and make a much better choice.
Young weddings look cute, but do you really know some 20 something who has never had to struggle in life? and sorry, going through college and 'studying for a major' does not count, you can always repeat that test. Going through a crisis at work and at home do not get a redo.
And wait some years. Your 30 something self will know a lot more, than your 20 something You who thought drama at the club was the most stressful situation ever. People are living a lot longer now, wait it out and make a much better choice.
34
Agreed (particularly about the perniciousness of romanticism)! However, doesn't this rely on a markedly unmodern idea of courtship? It is not irregular to live with one's future spouse for years before tying the knot. The trail is not marriage, as it once was, but rather with the "living together" phase of the serious, modern relationship that preambles marriage. You're doing something seriously wrong if this doesn't delve into the individuals' complexities (and foibles)!
6
Another reason why so many will enter doomed marriages is pressure to be married in the first place. People often view marital status as a social status, coupling as the key to socializing, and for some, marriage is a requisite for having children.
Not everyone will thrive in marriage, and certainly won't find the best possible match when they are determined to have a spouse without imagining long-term daily life with a partner.
Not everyone will thrive in marriage, and certainly won't find the best possible match when they are determined to have a spouse without imagining long-term daily life with a partner.
37
Reminds me of the Paul Simon lyric "We're just a habit, like saccharine."
3
It's nothing but the dictates of evolution. Otherwise women would not be marrying violent men, who in the past showed their food providing potential this way. And men would not be marrying vain and dim women just because they appear to possess the ratios showing optimal estrogen levels.
35
So true my friend
3
A surefire way to know we'll be marrying the wrong person is when we think we can change our partner's personality and habits after marriage. Will just not happen!
181
The purpose of our our first date was to talk over a trip to more than a dozen countries over several months, requiring that we leave good jobs in the depths of a deep recession to spend virtually all of our respective life savings.
If this seems a romantic disaster, it was further complicated by the differences we discovered on the road. I remembered all of the romantic locations, my partner all of the arguments over dinner.
But the months long, 24 hour, tight budget intensity of foreign travel was actually helpful in forming a long lasting relationship that gave us some practice in bigger decisions to come. When you are halfway around the world, you don't walk away.
Early relationship stress might actually be a good thing. We spent another decade being broke with kids, causing more stress but we also developed a taste for low cost camping vacations. Home ownership, college tuition for three and and health crisis were hurdles that just kept coming. The experience of being broke paradoxically helped us to save.
We're still working on it.
Take risks early in life, when you have the chance to learn from them and recover.
If this seems a romantic disaster, it was further complicated by the differences we discovered on the road. I remembered all of the romantic locations, my partner all of the arguments over dinner.
But the months long, 24 hour, tight budget intensity of foreign travel was actually helpful in forming a long lasting relationship that gave us some practice in bigger decisions to come. When you are halfway around the world, you don't walk away.
Early relationship stress might actually be a good thing. We spent another decade being broke with kids, causing more stress but we also developed a taste for low cost camping vacations. Home ownership, college tuition for three and and health crisis were hurdles that just kept coming. The experience of being broke paradoxically helped us to save.
We're still working on it.
Take risks early in life, when you have the chance to learn from them and recover.
288
Being broke together, for what ever reason, reveals character and resilience in a potential spouse.
Happy to hear you and your spouse got through, and taught your children well.
Happy to hear you and your spouse got through, and taught your children well.
3
I laughed reading this; recalling my own fantasy-driven approaches to love, the mistakes I made, the candidates for my heart that I rejected and who rejected me. De Botton captures some of the best wisdom (skills) about what make relationships work and reinforces what I've found to be true: love is a decision that you will make over and over again -- and even when I don't feel like it, it's better to just go ahead and love anyway.
239
This is a very insightful article. We marry for all of the wrong reasons, but stay for the right ones in most cases. Marriage is a huge compromise, and the grass always seems greener when you have chosen the wrong partner. I have found the longer you stay at it, the more compassion you end up having for your partner.
Folks have to get past the romance. I agree that is a bad guide to the future. My boss was born in India and his marriage was arranged; they didn't even speak the same language at the time. But after 30 years they truly have a bond and genuine affection for each other. Romance is something you must work at, and respect and compassion take time if they were never established in the beginning.
Folks have to get past the romance. I agree that is a bad guide to the future. My boss was born in India and his marriage was arranged; they didn't even speak the same language at the time. But after 30 years they truly have a bond and genuine affection for each other. Romance is something you must work at, and respect and compassion take time if they were never established in the beginning.
7
Men are clueless about themselves in these things. He could not answer if asked. He doesn't know.
A woman thinking of him must have long talks with the women who know him best, his sisters ideally, maybe his mother for some things, former girlfriends for other things.
If a man wanted to know this about a woman, he could ask her sisters or the girls she went to school with. But it won't help, because he won't understand what they tell him even if they tell him.
A woman must figure this out for the both of them. That means she also must ask her own sisters and long-time girlfriends about herself as potential wife, since we don't see such things about ourselves as others do. Consider it the first of her (potential) wifely duties, to take care of her man who is hopeless for such things. There will be more like that if they marry. He can take comfort that she will need some of that too.
The good news? It is fun.
A woman thinking of him must have long talks with the women who know him best, his sisters ideally, maybe his mother for some things, former girlfriends for other things.
If a man wanted to know this about a woman, he could ask her sisters or the girls she went to school with. But it won't help, because he won't understand what they tell him even if they tell him.
A woman must figure this out for the both of them. That means she also must ask her own sisters and long-time girlfriends about herself as potential wife, since we don't see such things about ourselves as others do. Consider it the first of her (potential) wifely duties, to take care of her man who is hopeless for such things. There will be more like that if they marry. He can take comfort that she will need some of that too.
The good news? It is fun.
72
Hard to have that kind of pragmatism and foresight when the animal instinct is driving the intellect.
Marriage is mating, long term commitment is a journey in self discovery.
Marriage is mating, long term commitment is a journey in self discovery.
10
Men are perfectly capable of emotional awareness. We don't get to abdicate responsibility in the name of incompetence.
11
Those are some unwarranted stereotypes about men. My husband is more emotionally astute than I am.
16
The author here uses lots of we's, We this an we that. I do not know where he gets his views, but I don't see any references to interviews, or any kind of studies.
I think a great many of us find a compatible sex partner, and overlook the negatives. Things are just too goo to give it up. I was divorced once, started attending singles events and listened. many of them found the perfect partner within a few months, just the opposite of their ex. The would get married and six months later separate. Mr. or Ms. wonderful was like their ex, that is what they were attracted to in the first place.
Discussion groups we instructive, I need to find someone to make my happy. Aha, a revelation, no one can make you happy, only you can make you happy. Happy people gravitate to other happy people.
A few rules, go together for three years, live together for three more, learn to put up with the small things, like the way they squeeze the toothpaste tube, or take your closet space.
You will have fights, learn how to work them out. You have to remake your personality, the one that got you apart from the previous relationship. Each new affair has to be better than the last.
You are on your best behavior when you meet, you can not keep it up, you will be found out eventually. If you are not honest abut yourself, you will be caught and it will bring distrust.
And, sex is fun, keep it that way.
I think a great many of us find a compatible sex partner, and overlook the negatives. Things are just too goo to give it up. I was divorced once, started attending singles events and listened. many of them found the perfect partner within a few months, just the opposite of their ex. The would get married and six months later separate. Mr. or Ms. wonderful was like their ex, that is what they were attracted to in the first place.
Discussion groups we instructive, I need to find someone to make my happy. Aha, a revelation, no one can make you happy, only you can make you happy. Happy people gravitate to other happy people.
A few rules, go together for three years, live together for three more, learn to put up with the small things, like the way they squeeze the toothpaste tube, or take your closet space.
You will have fights, learn how to work them out. You have to remake your personality, the one that got you apart from the previous relationship. Each new affair has to be better than the last.
You are on your best behavior when you meet, you can not keep it up, you will be found out eventually. If you are not honest abut yourself, you will be caught and it will bring distrust.
And, sex is fun, keep it that way.
181
I really liked the notion of achieving compatibility. Because, as the author makes clear and therapists have told couples forever, it's impossible for one person to meet all our needs, or match all our tastes.
I have never been married, but I have picked the wrong partners. In the case of two, what first attracted turned to a huge disappointment that, no, he really wasn't what I thought he was because of my own perceptions, or blindness-- likely the latter.
But the two that have worked were precisely because they couldn't meet all my needs, but their ability to disagree amiably was key. One died after 19 years, and the other is still with me.
In between, I've spent long periods alone which perhaps was the best thing of all, at least for my ability to more clearly judge if something will work. But another thing the author could have mentioned is this: does your mate support you and your tastes/choices or put them down? When I look back at the two "failed" relationships, that's what was lacking. If the guy or gal you're so crazy about wants to have everything their way, watch out: an inability to compromise on a movie might turn into an inability to accept you for who you are.
I have never been married, but I have picked the wrong partners. In the case of two, what first attracted turned to a huge disappointment that, no, he really wasn't what I thought he was because of my own perceptions, or blindness-- likely the latter.
But the two that have worked were precisely because they couldn't meet all my needs, but their ability to disagree amiably was key. One died after 19 years, and the other is still with me.
In between, I've spent long periods alone which perhaps was the best thing of all, at least for my ability to more clearly judge if something will work. But another thing the author could have mentioned is this: does your mate support you and your tastes/choices or put them down? When I look back at the two "failed" relationships, that's what was lacking. If the guy or gal you're so crazy about wants to have everything their way, watch out: an inability to compromise on a movie might turn into an inability to accept you for who you are.
939
I totally agree with your comment on the ability to compromise in a love/cohabitation/marital relationship. I married late-ish (early 30's) and was a partner in my law firm, living alone and having never even had a roommate. Another partner in the firm, herself married for 10-plus years, told me that the key to success in a marriage was the ability to compromise. Specifically, she said that there was not ever going to be even one single issue where the resolution was not going to matter more to one spouse than to the other. If honest communication exists between and within the spouses, then for any decision the choice should be to go with the the result that matters the most to one of you. Ideally, you love the person you share your life with enough to let them have their way when the issue at hand doesn't really matter to you. If you (or they) have to have it your way no matter what, and if you (or they) always insist on having the upper hand or being "the decider", that's when the trouble starts. It's been 33 years since I got that advice, and it has served me and my spouse in good stead. We agree on a lot of things, but we are different people and have been known to irritate the living daylights out of each other. Omg, we even fight and argue from time to time. But when we don't agree, we compromise. Sometimes it's me, sometimes it's him. But it works!!!
24
You have answered so well and so perceptively, no one else seems to feel the need to comment. Bravo!
2
You're onto something. One of the biggest predictors of divorce is one partner belittling the other (eyerolling, etc.) in public.
10