The true enemy of the US and west is Saudi Arabia and the other gulf states.
41
I absolutely cringed when Kasich, Rubio, Fiorina and especially Christie continually referred to Saudi Arabia as our "best friend and ally" in the region during the GOP presidential debates. With friends like the Saudis, who needs enemies? Makes you wonder who is funding their campaign. We already know Clinton has taken lots of donations from the Saudis for her campaign and her husbands assorted "charities". Trump was the only one not buying into this alliance with these two faced people, which is why I am voting for him.
53
America is exporting arms to Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia is exporting Wahabism----which is more dangerous and harmful to humanity? Saudi Royal family has been in power only with the help from America. Saudi royal family and the elites do not follow the wahabism themselves. Their life style and their waste of public money are not only anti-wahabism but also anti Islamic. Overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world do not follow or like wahabism because they follow Mohammadism.
25
The end of a hundred years of war between Protestants and Catholics is western civilization's implicit optimistic analogy to the Sunni/Shia sectarian animus of today.
Thus--if a less irrational future actually could exist in the insanity of the Middle East--eventually they'll have to become less mutually hostile.
How much longer in years is being guesstimated to that less hostile era from today?
While reconciliation failure within both Iraq & of Syria indicate that peace is hugely problematic.
Assad's priority is surely the survival of his Alevites.
I'm pro-Israel while I give-up on pan Muslim rationality and the acceptance of Israel.
Thus--if a less irrational future actually could exist in the insanity of the Middle East--eventually they'll have to become less mutually hostile.
How much longer in years is being guesstimated to that less hostile era from today?
While reconciliation failure within both Iraq & of Syria indicate that peace is hugely problematic.
Assad's priority is surely the survival of his Alevites.
I'm pro-Israel while I give-up on pan Muslim rationality and the acceptance of Israel.
9
Don't confuse pacifist Salafism with the Jihadi Salafism of ISIS and Al-Queda.
3
Here is one more example of reasons why Americans are mad at politicians and people who hold power in Washington. It has been well known for two decades that Saudis have been financing Wahhabism, the culprit of Islamic terrorism. So either they are incompetent or are corrupt. Even now we don't know why we don't punish Saudis for what they have done to us and the world. In fact we continue to appease them.
The world is drowning in oil so let use some of the extra fuel to burn our stupid relationship with Saudi Arabia.
The world is drowning in oil so let use some of the extra fuel to burn our stupid relationship with Saudi Arabia.
37
So then objections to 1.1 million Muslims pouring into Europe unchecked is not really Islamophobia after all is it?
20
Saudi Arabia is a danger to the world. No U.S. tax money, no U.S. military personnel, and no U.S. arms should be used to help that country. Let the Saudis reap what they have sowed.
28
This may be the last straw for me. My nearest involvement in a war (in 22 years in the military) was in Kosovo. Now it seems the Saudi-installed Wahabis are turning people we tried to save into radicals. I also spent a year in Saudi, training Saudis to fly F-15s that are now bombing Yemen. I have tried to maintain perspective, respecting the positive aspects of Saudi culture and the Arab place in history. But it becomes harder as the Saudis (the government giving tacit approval at best) export the most virulent, intolerant form of Islam (Wahibism) and consistently view the world as Sunni vs Shiite, to the point of favoring Al Quaeda at times. I'm not sure that having an "ally" in the middle east is worth the cost any more.
81
I grew up in Quetta, Pakistan in the early 70s, less than 100 miles from Afghan border. They had madrasahs then also, but not yet infected by Saudi Wahhabism. Saudi Arabia has brought untold misery to regular Muslims with Wahhabi ideology. And their hypocrisy is galling. Best wine collection in DC was at a former Saudi Ambassador's residence. High time to call out on the spoiled Saudi brats.
47
America is the real victim. These 'schools' are scattered around our nation and in our population centers. They spread hatred, anti-Semitism, ignorance, and impart a sort of 'superior' attitude to some of the most backward people in our country. It's time to stop this nonsense.
31
Wow, this is refreshing. Is this position only possible since we buried the hatchet with Iran? My family was stuck out in the woods between the Seneca and the British, so I appreciate how sometimes you have to check your own core values just to survive in this world.
10
"The Americans may have erred in assuming that Kosovo’s moderate religious community would prevent extremism from flourishing."
The Serbians knew this was coming.
The Serbians knew this was coming.
13
Saudi Arabia sells oil and buys billions of dollars worth of U.S. made weaponry. In the meantime the Saudi government continues to fund mosques worldwide to spread Wahhabism, support ISIS and promulgate anti-Israel sentiment. The U.S. in turn, gives Israel billions of dollars worth of [FREE] military aid vows to protect Israel at all cost. If this isn't a vicious cycle of hypocrisy on behalf of the U.S. - I don't know what is...
32
So now we are finally going to talk about this? For years people both influential and mundane (me) have been sounding the alarm about the toxic influence of the Wahhabi version of Islam and it's export around the world. This growing problem has been ignored by both the political parties here in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world. For our part we have these examples, the Obama administration now trying to obstruct any open investigation into Saudi involvement in 9/11 on the pretext of protecting Americans abroad and the long standing relationship between the Bush dynasty and powerful individuals in Saudi society. This is a conversation that should have happened long before the Wahhabi madrasas spread throughout the world. We have been blinded by anticommunist rhetoric, armaments sales and the stability of oil supply & price. It's a devil's bargain we and the British first made & we as well as many others may finally have come to rue that bargain and it's consequences. But unfortunately I think that the barn door has closed behind that horse and it will remain lose for long to come.
30
There may be, probably are, many Saudis today who would like to shed the extremism built up over several decades, BUT they are not working fast enough. As I understand it, there are still school books that preach 'my way or the highway' .... the highway being death. It's embarrassing to realize how much the United States has given in aid to the KIngdom - almost a partner in their atrocities.
If their are good citizens in Saudi Arabia, they must speak out and take control - else the world will continue to receive the fruits of radical Islam.
If their are good citizens in Saudi Arabia, they must speak out and take control - else the world will continue to receive the fruits of radical Islam.
15
You forgot to add that your endorsed candidate, Clinton, approved a $12 Billion saleof military equipment, planes, bombs, etc. tthat the Saudi used to kill thousands of civilians, women and children included.
Clinton owes those dead people, and their kin, an apology.
Clinton owes those dead people, and their kin, an apology.
24
This from someone claiming to inhabit the "State of Jefferson, USA?" Please - apparently you forgot all about the photos of George W. Bush walking hand in hand with the Saudi Prince, not to mention the fact that the Bush family arranged for all of the Saudis in the US to depart post haste after 9/11, when no other planes were permitted to fly anywhere. The fact of the matter is the U.s. has a lengthy, egregious history of meddling in the political and internal affairs of a myriad of nations, largely with catastrophic results, from which we've then skated away, or sent hundreds of thousands of our own troops to shed their blood, sweat and tears in one pointless, fruitless non-essential "mission" after another. We have never understood the internecine hatred, tribal and sectarian warfare in any of the regions into which we've heedlessly, recklessly barreled - and we still do not. We, or more precisely George Bush and Dick Cheney et al., created ISIS, my friend - and our complicity with the Saudis, who long ago made their pact with the Wahhabist devils among them, render us equally responsible with them for the resultant Middle Eastern cesspool.
38
Saudi is yet another unintended consequence of the United States policies, just like the Talibans and Al Qaeda. Our poor foreign policies put Saudi Arabia on the map and lifted them out of their miserable, bedouin lifestyle to where they snubbed our president when he visited the Arab State last month.
20
"Yet experts point to a number of reasons the country has been fertile ground for recruitment to radical ideology: a large population of young people living in rural poverty with little hope of jobs; corruption and an attendant lack of faith in government; and...an education system that does not encourage critical thinking."
Written about Kosovo, but sounds like the US, to me. Isn't it funny how we can spot a speck in another's eye before a beam in our own?
And we seem intent on electing either of the two Presidential candidates who will do NOTHING to reverse this state of affairs, while ignoring--when not demonizing--the one who would!
Time to look in the mirror!
Written about Kosovo, but sounds like the US, to me. Isn't it funny how we can spot a speck in another's eye before a beam in our own?
And we seem intent on electing either of the two Presidential candidates who will do NOTHING to reverse this state of affairs, while ignoring--when not demonizing--the one who would!
Time to look in the mirror!
19
Funny that some commentators have tried to find out a chicken & egg kind of thing here ..US is doing that--that´s why Saudis are doing this...utter Rubbish.
Can any one explain why 140 Immas in New Delhi, India, are pay rolled by Saudi Arabia??? Has India sent any soldiers, sold weapons to Saudi Arabia?
Yes I met many Saudi academics in the US with western attire...could you believe that their wives allow these men to have 4 wives if they so wish? Complete uprooting of religious education in the kinder gardens are one of the major steps that the Saudis must take to make the society secular. It´s a 100-year question....we have to suffer until then....there simply is no way out other than to impose UN sanctions, as I wrote in my previous comment ( thanks for publishing).
On the political level the scenario is just inconceivable: The extended story of recent killing of the Taleban chief unfolds that the deceased had connections with Iran and that Shia Iran supports Taliban against Sunni Al Quaeda!!! Pakistan is obviously also involved in this dirty quagmire of unholy politics of power, mayhem and bigotry. I am becoming a pessimist by the minute! No I don't blame the US. A medieval society thrives on colonialism, anarchy, and mass hypnotism. Saudi Arabia is just that. If It itwasn´t not America, it would be Europe to colonize Saudi Arabia directly on indirectly. So there is no valid proof that US bombs and weapons have encouraged Wahhabism.We should come out of slumber!
Can any one explain why 140 Immas in New Delhi, India, are pay rolled by Saudi Arabia??? Has India sent any soldiers, sold weapons to Saudi Arabia?
Yes I met many Saudi academics in the US with western attire...could you believe that their wives allow these men to have 4 wives if they so wish? Complete uprooting of religious education in the kinder gardens are one of the major steps that the Saudis must take to make the society secular. It´s a 100-year question....we have to suffer until then....there simply is no way out other than to impose UN sanctions, as I wrote in my previous comment ( thanks for publishing).
On the political level the scenario is just inconceivable: The extended story of recent killing of the Taleban chief unfolds that the deceased had connections with Iran and that Shia Iran supports Taliban against Sunni Al Quaeda!!! Pakistan is obviously also involved in this dirty quagmire of unholy politics of power, mayhem and bigotry. I am becoming a pessimist by the minute! No I don't blame the US. A medieval society thrives on colonialism, anarchy, and mass hypnotism. Saudi Arabia is just that. If It itwasn´t not America, it would be Europe to colonize Saudi Arabia directly on indirectly. So there is no valid proof that US bombs and weapons have encouraged Wahhabism.We should come out of slumber!
12
I'm disgusted by the fact that Americans are now choosing huge cars again now that gas prices are really low. Americans in their stupid SUVs are the worlds biggest funders of this disgusting nation , Saudi Arabia, and its even more disgusting form of Islam.
31
The US has a long history of betting on the wrong horse
25
This editorial and the article that prompted it caused me to take out my copy of Lawrence Wright's excellent history of the run-up to 9-11, "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9-11", and to contemplate a re-read. It had been an education for me in the history of the region, the history of Islam and of its particularly cruel off-shoot, Wahhabism.
I have also read Lawrence Wright's more recent book, "Thirteen Days in September". This is the story of how President Jimmy Carter, through persistence and force of will, persuaded (to their surprise, I am sure,) Israel's Menachem Begin and Egypt's Anwar Sadat to come to Camp David to resolve unresolvable border issues, and so to begin a path to peaceful co-existence. Which they did. There are certain moments in a life that you will always remember, as if they had happened yesterday. Sadly, I remember where I was the day Sadat was assassinated.
In Islam there is a legitimate peaceful path, I understand, and this is the path that has been embraced by the families of Kosovo. But now in a time of economic hardship, their young men are being lured away to jihad. Who are the leaders who are key to resolving this, and who can bring the young people back into peaceful and productive life? It's never simple, and there are always costs. But they need to step up.
I have also read Lawrence Wright's more recent book, "Thirteen Days in September". This is the story of how President Jimmy Carter, through persistence and force of will, persuaded (to their surprise, I am sure,) Israel's Menachem Begin and Egypt's Anwar Sadat to come to Camp David to resolve unresolvable border issues, and so to begin a path to peaceful co-existence. Which they did. There are certain moments in a life that you will always remember, as if they had happened yesterday. Sadly, I remember where I was the day Sadat was assassinated.
In Islam there is a legitimate peaceful path, I understand, and this is the path that has been embraced by the families of Kosovo. But now in a time of economic hardship, their young men are being lured away to jihad. Who are the leaders who are key to resolving this, and who can bring the young people back into peaceful and productive life? It's never simple, and there are always costs. But they need to step up.
13
It's about time we shine a spot light on Saudi Arabia for their role in radicalizing muslims the world over. But as the article pointed out, they are not alone. Kuwait, Qatar and the UAE are also part of this Islamic radicalization scheme. This is why many of us do not want to see more Islamic migration or more mosques built in the US. Many mosques in western Europe are funded by these gulf monies and presided over by imams that promote radical Islam. This cancer is now spreading into the US, aided and abetted by the left just like in Europe.
The Times pointed out Kosovo's education not promoting "critical thinking", we don't have much room to speak on that regard. Our schools are equally bad at teaching critical thinking thanks to the overwhelming influence of liberalism in academia. Children are force fed since day 1 that opposing more Islamic migration or building of more mosques equals "hate, bigotry and intolerance" and should not be tolerated. Our media do the same every day. It's about time the left wakes up before we turn into the next Belgium or Kosovo.
The Times pointed out Kosovo's education not promoting "critical thinking", we don't have much room to speak on that regard. Our schools are equally bad at teaching critical thinking thanks to the overwhelming influence of liberalism in academia. Children are force fed since day 1 that opposing more Islamic migration or building of more mosques equals "hate, bigotry and intolerance" and should not be tolerated. Our media do the same every day. It's about time the left wakes up before we turn into the next Belgium or Kosovo.
20
How about the Times expose the lifestyles of the Saudi royal families and show the world what we are putting up with to support them. Greed, knowing no morals, is the reason the world is in such horrible shape. We sacrifice people and lives for a handful of venal men and women. The United States, that bastion of freedom is no different. There is no God, nor conscience, but money. Soon, a force more powerful than our puny God will have the last say, Mother Nature. She doesn't sell indulgences nor allows for repentance. Burn fossil fuels, enrich these devils, and see where it will end. Mother Nature will take down not only the privileged, but Leona's "little people" too. Only cockroaches will survive us and inherit the Earth.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-cables-saudi-prin...
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/News/story?id=169246&page=1
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-cables-saudi-prin...
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/News/story?id=169246&page=1
12
But we're missing the "bottom line".
It's UNEMPLOYMENT.
In the U.S. = Trump
In France = Le Pen
In Austria = Hofer
Shall I go on ?
It's UNEMPLOYMENT.
In the U.S. = Trump
In France = Le Pen
In Austria = Hofer
Shall I go on ?
7
Humankind will never be free until the last monarch is strangled with the entrails of the last cleric!
20
And will Clinton or Trump continue the status quo relationship with Saudi Arabia?
For this reason alone I will work to elect Bernie Sanders
For this reason alone I will work to elect Bernie Sanders
10
What year is this article from. This has bee going on for years.
11
I note that you write: "and according to a 2015 report on the Kosovar Center for Security Studies, an education system that does not encourage critical thinking." Sounds like Texas.
22
I remember the picture of GW Bush and Bandar Bush holding hands. The Princes vilified us in their House of Saud run newspapers and we looked the other way at their dismal record on upholding even minimal human rights. Endless oil and armaments and stability -- the important things, right?
15
To me, all religions are fanciful fairy tales. What is most disturbing is the injection of their righteous infallibility into secular government and their sense of indignation and hate and retribution when called out for what they are doing.
It's not just the Muslims in the middle east, but religions all over the world. History tells us that the vast majority of armed conflicts has been fomented by religious zealots. Even in this country, look at how religions are trying to shape our own elections because they think that what they preach is the only "right" way. To me, this is close to the height of arrogance... right behind the money mongers who tell us what choices we have to vote for and then pay the way for those politicians.
Our Plutocratic Theocracy !!!
It's not just the Muslims in the middle east, but religions all over the world. History tells us that the vast majority of armed conflicts has been fomented by religious zealots. Even in this country, look at how religions are trying to shape our own elections because they think that what they preach is the only "right" way. To me, this is close to the height of arrogance... right behind the money mongers who tell us what choices we have to vote for and then pay the way for those politicians.
Our Plutocratic Theocracy !!!
12
Kosovo is one example. During the oil boom, the Wahhabi brand of Islam was spread to many countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asia. The west was knowing full well about the Saudi complexity but preferred to remain silent because of two main reasons -Oil and Saudi's influence over Sunni countries in the Middle East. We are now paying for looking the other way when radical Islam was being exported along with Oil to many countries.
Another example is Pakistan. Their complicity in giving refuge to Osama bin Laden was ultimately exposed. They all along maintained that he was hiding in one of the caves in Afghanistan. Pakistan is also exporting terror and the US keeps rewarding with the state of the art defense equipment. karl mark once famously said that "History repeats itself twice - first time as a tragedy and then as a farce".
We never seem to learn from the history and act only when a situation spirals out of control.
Another example is Pakistan. Their complicity in giving refuge to Osama bin Laden was ultimately exposed. They all along maintained that he was hiding in one of the caves in Afghanistan. Pakistan is also exporting terror and the US keeps rewarding with the state of the art defense equipment. karl mark once famously said that "History repeats itself twice - first time as a tragedy and then as a farce".
We never seem to learn from the history and act only when a situation spirals out of control.
62
Sorry, I can't get this fact that Pakistan is also exporting terrorism if it is the case then why Pakistan is suffering? Pakistan has lost almost 80,000 of its people. And still you're saying that Pakistan is the one who is behind terrorism. We are a peaceful nation and want other nations to be peaceful too.
Saudi Arabia has spent decades funding extremist madrassas in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The corrupt governments of those countries said nothing, and the world powers remained silent as long as those fanatics were fighting the Russians in proxy wars and reserving their mass murders and terrors for the shiite populations. It's still not too late. Stop protecting Saudi interests, propping up corrupt governments, and fund education instead of bombs for these countries.
11
Some perspective would be helpful here. 314 Kosovar Daesh fighters? With respect to their families and victims, big whoop! The south side of Chicago has higher gang participation per capita than that. It's similarly deadly, but it's harder to see because it's local. And, US policies in Central America from the 1980s are partly responsible.
Understanding this kind of violence, whether in the Middle East or in Chicago or LA, calls for historical perspective, not just regime finger-pointing.
Understanding this kind of violence, whether in the Middle East or in Chicago or LA, calls for historical perspective, not just regime finger-pointing.
3
It is obvious that Saudi Arabia felt insecure being too dependent militarily and economically on US, and used the spread of its ideology (religion) to build its defence. Not a smart move, but this is happening elsewhere as well. The solution lies in strengthening multilateral system that guarantees clear and transparent rules for maintaining economic and other relationship between countries. But the biggest challenge to such multilateralism comes mainly from a small but influential group of conservatives in US, not from Saudi Arabia or countries in Europe or even Russia.
2
What if we didn't use oil? How different history would have been.
1
Remember the "christian" crusades, the deadliest war in history, stoked by the catholic church. The original fear, anger, hate, war crowd. NO religious belief is worth dying or killing for.
8
When the Saudis kicked our military out of the country as they did post 9/11 are they really an ally?
4
Very interesting,..... It is the fault of America. No country has received an enormous support from USA like Saudi Arabia has. This horrendous monarchy would not have been able to support terrorism if the United State had been strict with this country. I wonder why the hell USA sells advanced weapons and cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia, while they encourage and prompt radicalism and hatred.
USA is a partner of Saudi Arabia in murdering innocents in Yemen.
USA is a partner of Saudi Arabia in murdering innocents in Yemen.
13
If only our nations "leaders"? listened to the 1970 Earth Day warning to stop using fossil fuels, the Saudi's would not have raked in the billions from our pockets to advance their mid-evil mind control. We would have implemented a NASA like project to flood our system with clean renewable energy. The advancements in clean energy production that could have been made over the last 46yrs are incalculable. The Saudi rulers treachery and Global Warming could never have happened. The biggest lobby in Washington is the Saudi's. They have our Representatives on a short leash.
Our once "Untouchable Strategic Oil Reserve", should the Arab's pull another oil embargo, or Iran block the Strait of Hormuz is now being sold off by representatives under the $ influence. It should stay in the ground in case of emergency. If the nation listened to the hippies (Earth Day) and scientists dire forecast of a future "Global Warming" on that Earth Day, 1970, instead of rallying to Gov Reagan's, Nixon's, Spiro Agnew's, Jessie Helm's, Strom Thurman's etc. hate speech (causing the brutalizing and filling our jails with the slaughter of Pot Smoking "Psychedelic" aware innocents) the world would have been spared the destruction these storms and floods are now causing. Global Warming is very dangerous and needs immediate action against it. Don't let clowns pull your chain with hate as they have in the past. The Earth is actually in the balance now, and hopefully it is not too late for humanity.
Our once "Untouchable Strategic Oil Reserve", should the Arab's pull another oil embargo, or Iran block the Strait of Hormuz is now being sold off by representatives under the $ influence. It should stay in the ground in case of emergency. If the nation listened to the hippies (Earth Day) and scientists dire forecast of a future "Global Warming" on that Earth Day, 1970, instead of rallying to Gov Reagan's, Nixon's, Spiro Agnew's, Jessie Helm's, Strom Thurman's etc. hate speech (causing the brutalizing and filling our jails with the slaughter of Pot Smoking "Psychedelic" aware innocents) the world would have been spared the destruction these storms and floods are now causing. Global Warming is very dangerous and needs immediate action against it. Don't let clowns pull your chain with hate as they have in the past. The Earth is actually in the balance now, and hopefully it is not too late for humanity.
4
For how many years does it go back that the Bush family has had close ties with the Saudi Kingdom royal Kings and Prices? Pappy Bush's father? GWB grandfather. In 80's the airbase on Island of Crete was closed and Reagan/Bush put an airbase in Saudi Arabia and problems began. The corruption and collusion that goes on around the world by leaders, kings, President's, dictators in third world countries, democracies, communist countries, socialist countries is never good for the people of the world.
Until we the people of the world and especially we the people of the United States of America acknowledge that we do not have a free press (it is owned by a few billionaires with their own interest) and are informed citizens of the US or of the world. That we the people(millions) stand up to the actually a few (1,000) powerful people who control our government and take it down and demand accountability.
Until we the people of the world and especially we the people of the United States of America acknowledge that we do not have a free press (it is owned by a few billionaires with their own interest) and are informed citizens of the US or of the world. That we the people(millions) stand up to the actually a few (1,000) powerful people who control our government and take it down and demand accountability.
The editorial and comments are about oil, terrorism and its spread, but ignores 'the elephant in the room'. Religion. Both Mohammed and Jesus were great prophets of love, peace and caring for the lesser of us. The Koran and the Bible are great books, but are used for evil ends. Allah ackbar, God is great? This mysterious God does not seem about in this world. There were magnificent Jewish prophets in the Old Testament, but look at what Jewish fundamentalists have done to promote hatred of Jews and Israel. I pretty much gave up on religion as a force for good when Buddhist monks, those serene beings, started murdering Muslims in western Myanmar. I am a Unitarian born and raised. It is no longer a Christian religion, but a way of trying to live in peace and love for fellow man. Very difficult in these chaotic times riven by the religious-- even in America with freedom of religion, of tolerance, enshrined in our Constitution.
5
Prophets only open Pandora's Box when they claim their prophesies derive from acquaintance with an imaginary personality of nature.
5
The real hope lies in the fact that very soon better batteries and cheaper wind and solar electricity generation will render oil obsolete. Saudi Arabia will become a little backwater country all of whose former "leaders" will have long since gone to join their Swiss bank account billions in their Summer chalets.
3
Unfortunately, we learn nothing from history. Religion has long been a tool for the incorporation of power. The religious right in this country, inspired by the petroleum, Saudi friendly Bushes and a loyal GOP has taken a page out of the Saudi playbook. Recruit religious leaders by offering palpable power over the lives of non conformists and preferential financial compensation (who gets tax breaks in this country that compare with corporations, the religious and those with political power?) and they will serve obediently, for a while. But eventually the recruited leaders will exploit their influence for political goals demanding ever expanding control over governance and the trouble begins, in Saudi Arabia decades ago, and now here. The doctrine may differ but the causality is the same. We are not Saudi Arabia and theocratic authoritarianism will not come easily here, but unrest is in the air. Our democratic republic is very young in historical terms, and naive. Pitting neighbor against neighbor is a failed strategy that leads more often than not to the type of incoherency of policy we are now witnessing, with no common goal or future in sight.
2
"Suffer now to win bliss forever!"
What a scam.
What a scam.
3
Why can't our smart foreign policy intelligentsia in Washington see the elephant in the room that Saudi Arabia is not one of our Great Allies but one of our Greatest Enemies? In the past, we needed them for our gas guzzling ways. But not anymore! If one stands to reason, then Saudi Arabia is actually behind all the deathly extremism. Yet we are feeding the beast while slaughtering the goat - Iran. Even Assad pales in comparison who was secular until the insurgency backed by Wahabist Sunni Saudi Arabia whose money has reached far and deep to instigate the ruthless, bloody mayhem in the Middle East and the rest of the world. The evidence of their involvement is very stark. But for some incomprehensible reason we are supporting them. At least, let's cut our losses. Leave Saudi Arabia to themselves and self-destruct. Saudi Arabia has now started to bleed. They are raiding their Treasury at a rapid rate while income from oil is dwindling at a more rapid rate. Once their golden palaces beat the dust, they will have to go back to their tribal roots of just being nomads in the desert. And peace will return on our Planet, free from wars, upheaval, displacements, pain, deaths and annihilation of mankind.
2
"For centuries, the Muslim majority has followed the liberal Hanafi version of Islam, which is accepting of others. "
One really expects more comprehensive research from the NYT. Who told you this? Could you at least do some basic research about Islamic jurispudence schools before expounding on them? For example, the Hanafi school sees apostasy (rejecting Islam) and blasphemy (insulting Mohammed) as the same offense and recommends the death penalty for both. Blasphemy includes simply making statements contrary to the Islamic doctrine (for example, saying mohammed did not ascend to heaven on a winged horse). How does equating critical thinking about Islamic doctrine with a capital crime count as "accepting of others" to you?
The Taliban isn't Wahabbi. It is Hanafi. Pakistan has clerical bodies advising the govt to forbid laws against domestic violence, and they aren't salafi or Wahabbi. They are Hanafi. At this juncture, it is true that Saudi money has influenced the Taliban and other ultra orthodox Hanafi schools, but the fact is that what the Taliban did had strong and direct roots in classical Hanafi teachings. They didn't need to make much up. And they didn't need to rely on Hanbali (Wahabbi) teachings.
One really expects more comprehensive research from the NYT. Who told you this? Could you at least do some basic research about Islamic jurispudence schools before expounding on them? For example, the Hanafi school sees apostasy (rejecting Islam) and blasphemy (insulting Mohammed) as the same offense and recommends the death penalty for both. Blasphemy includes simply making statements contrary to the Islamic doctrine (for example, saying mohammed did not ascend to heaven on a winged horse). How does equating critical thinking about Islamic doctrine with a capital crime count as "accepting of others" to you?
The Taliban isn't Wahabbi. It is Hanafi. Pakistan has clerical bodies advising the govt to forbid laws against domestic violence, and they aren't salafi or Wahabbi. They are Hanafi. At this juncture, it is true that Saudi money has influenced the Taliban and other ultra orthodox Hanafi schools, but the fact is that what the Taliban did had strong and direct roots in classical Hanafi teachings. They didn't need to make much up. And they didn't need to rely on Hanbali (Wahabbi) teachings.
8
In other words, they more or less just used the Old Testament.
2
What we need is a vast worldwide symposium to determine once and for all how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
5
I am glad to see these articles focusing on the Saudi role in germinating almost every violent Islamist movement in the world.
At the same time, they are 20 years too late. In the 1980s, the USA eagerly embraced Saudi money to build the religious fervor of the Afghan mujaheddin against the Soviet Union.
By encouraging one totalitarian ideology to fight another, and then ignoring what had been set into motion, the next enemies of America were born. Hopefully these lessons will be learnt today, and though however painful and slow, the sustained support of democratic institutions is the only way to avoid creating new conflicts 20 years from now.
President Obama's dictum of not doing stupid stuff, is a small step in the right direction.
At the same time, they are 20 years too late. In the 1980s, the USA eagerly embraced Saudi money to build the religious fervor of the Afghan mujaheddin against the Soviet Union.
By encouraging one totalitarian ideology to fight another, and then ignoring what had been set into motion, the next enemies of America were born. Hopefully these lessons will be learnt today, and though however painful and slow, the sustained support of democratic institutions is the only way to avoid creating new conflicts 20 years from now.
President Obama's dictum of not doing stupid stuff, is a small step in the right direction.
3
Begs the question what the Saudi's $681M donation to Malaysia's Prime Minister was used for and where.
10
Blaming Saudi Arabia alone is not enough. US knows each and everything about Saudi's intention whether it is in Kosovo, Yemen and in Syria. I can't get this fact wrong that it is the United states that also funded different militant organizations along with Saudi Arabia. If it wasn't then why it openly support Saudi government?
3
"Yet experts point to a number of reasons the country has been fertile ground for recruitment to radical ideology: a large population of young people living in rural poverty with little hope of jobs; corruption and an attendant lack of faith in government; and...an education system that does not encourage critical thinking."
Hmmm, sounds like the U.S.
Hmmm, sounds like the U.S.
1
Could a reporter please ask Mr. Trump what he thinks of the Saudis? Are the Saudis an ally in his opinion? What about that fact that it is a Muslim country? Perhaps he could explain what issues he deems necessary to discuss with the King. Please ask him, NYT.
2
"They're great people. I love them. They love me. Some of my best friends are members of the Muslims. We're going to make America great again. We're gonna build a wall to keep the Muslims out, and they're going to pay for it with free oil, but I love them. I think they're great."
2
Yes, criticize Saudi proselityzation of the Islamic world with fundamentalist Wahabbism. Please also criticize the equally destructive proselytizing by American based fundamentalist Christian groups operating around the world with the support of our own government.
2
So when is a county or group's behavior destructive and damaging enough to warrant calling them an enemy? Here in our own country we have big oil from (shell, chevron, Exxon, etc) creating untold damage to our planet and in the Middle East broken societies breeding extreme violence that periodically spills over on to our shores. Our ships, submarines and fancy jets had little resistance to 9/11 or the recent Paris massacre. Wouldn't it be better for us to back away from this sad region and reduce the use of oil that brings a price tag the planet can't pay.
5
The hypothesis of this editorial - that Saudi Arabia is "frustrating" American foreign policy against terrorism - doesn't add up.
As a top comment here has already highlighted, the USA invaded Iraq - at the time, one of the few secular ME countries, where Kurds, Shiite and Sunnites lived in relative peace. This invasion strengthened Saudi Arabia's position in the ME. That was 2003, and we had the excuse the president was George W. Bush, whose family has well-known ties with the Saud family.
But after Obama was elected, the pattern continued: Hillary Clinton invaded Libya - another secular Muslim country, with the best life standards of Africa - because Khadaffi wanted to peg his oil exports in Euro. His fall under the missiles of NATO strengthened radical Islam and SA's position in the oil market once more, and Libya is now the main source of refugees (as Khadaffi had warned it would happen if he was toppled).
Now, to top it off, the USA wants to topple Assad - the last secular regime in the ME! This time, though, Russia came to the rescue, avoiding another disaster.
And let's not forget the sanctions against Iran. Iran is the arch-enemy of Israel and Saudi Arabia, to the point both are now allies. Officially a theocracy (it has an official religion), Iran is a de facto secular democracy, since it also officially recognizes a plethora of other minority religions and has elections. And the USA wants to suffocate Iran - to strengthen Saudi Arabia (and Israel)!
As a top comment here has already highlighted, the USA invaded Iraq - at the time, one of the few secular ME countries, where Kurds, Shiite and Sunnites lived in relative peace. This invasion strengthened Saudi Arabia's position in the ME. That was 2003, and we had the excuse the president was George W. Bush, whose family has well-known ties with the Saud family.
But after Obama was elected, the pattern continued: Hillary Clinton invaded Libya - another secular Muslim country, with the best life standards of Africa - because Khadaffi wanted to peg his oil exports in Euro. His fall under the missiles of NATO strengthened radical Islam and SA's position in the oil market once more, and Libya is now the main source of refugees (as Khadaffi had warned it would happen if he was toppled).
Now, to top it off, the USA wants to topple Assad - the last secular regime in the ME! This time, though, Russia came to the rescue, avoiding another disaster.
And let's not forget the sanctions against Iran. Iran is the arch-enemy of Israel and Saudi Arabia, to the point both are now allies. Officially a theocracy (it has an official religion), Iran is a de facto secular democracy, since it also officially recognizes a plethora of other minority religions and has elections. And the USA wants to suffocate Iran - to strengthen Saudi Arabia (and Israel)!
10
Unless we can achieve something close to energy independence, we will continue to support the Saudi's, regardless of what the Saudi's do with the money we send their way.
How do we find other sources for the massive amounts of energy on which all Americans depend? Fracking, anyone? Nuclear power?
Renewable sources, like sun, wind, and hydroelectric can all help, but all are limited; the sun only shines during the day, the wind blows when it wants to, and the Times reports we are considering decommissioning many of our dams
We need to spend on infrastructure for storing power, and accept some adverse environmental effects - remember Storm King Mountain. It was one of many projects that would have helped us achieve energy independence, but which had a cost to the environment. It was successfully blocked. Similarly for a wind farm near Cape Cod. A little less of the NIMBY mindset might help us move closer to reducing dependence on oil from the Middle East.
Importantly, we need to invest more, and invest better, in technologies that reduce reliance on fossils fuels from the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Most projects fail because they cost too much compared to oil at $30 a barrel. Perhaps it is a price worth paying.
How do we find other sources for the massive amounts of energy on which all Americans depend? Fracking, anyone? Nuclear power?
Renewable sources, like sun, wind, and hydroelectric can all help, but all are limited; the sun only shines during the day, the wind blows when it wants to, and the Times reports we are considering decommissioning many of our dams
We need to spend on infrastructure for storing power, and accept some adverse environmental effects - remember Storm King Mountain. It was one of many projects that would have helped us achieve energy independence, but which had a cost to the environment. It was successfully blocked. Similarly for a wind farm near Cape Cod. A little less of the NIMBY mindset might help us move closer to reducing dependence on oil from the Middle East.
Importantly, we need to invest more, and invest better, in technologies that reduce reliance on fossils fuels from the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Most projects fail because they cost too much compared to oil at $30 a barrel. Perhaps it is a price worth paying.
1
Having lived in Jeddah for five years I have seen first hand what it's like to live in a country where 99.9% of the populace can't even imagine the idea of separation of church and state. We Westerners used to joke that we needed a vacation to the Soviet Union to get away from the oppression and enjoy a little freedom. I kid you not that you could get arrested for eating in public during daylight in the month of Ramadan, or being a woman driving a car.
The argument has always been that we need to support the Saudi regime because they represented the best possibility of ensuring a stable oil supply and of maintaining political stability in the region. Thanks for 9-11 guys. The families of those killed probably aren't such avid supporters of this policy anymore. To appreciate the depth of Saudi devotion to spreading Islamic viciousness around the world one need only visualize the grinning face of Mohammad Atta, a university educated family man, as he guided the 767 into the World Trade Center tower, chanting "God is Great".
My hope is that the recent decision to allow US citizens to sue the Saudis in international court for 9-11 damages will bring the depth of their involvement to light. Why were the Saudi citizens in NYC at the time rushed immediately out of the US before any information could be gathered? To allow our petrodollars to fund our own destruction is the height of foolishness.
The argument has always been that we need to support the Saudi regime because they represented the best possibility of ensuring a stable oil supply and of maintaining political stability in the region. Thanks for 9-11 guys. The families of those killed probably aren't such avid supporters of this policy anymore. To appreciate the depth of Saudi devotion to spreading Islamic viciousness around the world one need only visualize the grinning face of Mohammad Atta, a university educated family man, as he guided the 767 into the World Trade Center tower, chanting "God is Great".
My hope is that the recent decision to allow US citizens to sue the Saudis in international court for 9-11 damages will bring the depth of their involvement to light. Why were the Saudi citizens in NYC at the time rushed immediately out of the US before any information could be gathered? To allow our petrodollars to fund our own destruction is the height of foolishness.
21
The rationale for all this idolatry is that people who submit to it will get to have fun forever when they're dead.
5
The US is propping up the Saudi regime because if they fell, what would come after them would almost certainly be even worse. It's as simple as that.
If it were my call, I would be secretly encouraging the oppressed Shiite minority -- which makes up about 15% of the population, and is concentrated in the oil rich eastern region of the country -- to rise up and take the oil fields away from the Wahhabis. I'd give them all the support I could. The Shiites probably wouldn't be that nice either, but at least they wouldn't use the oil money to promote Sunni terrorism.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/12/03/saudi-arabia-has-a-shiite-problem-ro...
If it were my call, I would be secretly encouraging the oppressed Shiite minority -- which makes up about 15% of the population, and is concentrated in the oil rich eastern region of the country -- to rise up and take the oil fields away from the Wahhabis. I'd give them all the support I could. The Shiites probably wouldn't be that nice either, but at least they wouldn't use the oil money to promote Sunni terrorism.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/12/03/saudi-arabia-has-a-shiite-problem-ro...
9
We as Americans have been supporting the Saudi's and their support of Wahhabism for decades through our addiction to their oil. Since 9/11, Thomas Friedman, NY Times columnist and author, has been writing and speaking about how our government has been looking the other way as long as we could fill our oil tankers with cheap oil. So what I am saying is that this is not new news, just a result of what we have know for over a decade. Turn off the Saudi oil spigot is the only way to begin to strangle the spread of Wahhabism.
13
Imagine...no religion.
5
Please don't try for the impossible. Discrediting all claims by anyone to know why a putative intelligent creator of the universe did it should be sufficient.
The Saudi's have never been out friends, they have been out supplier. The best thing we can do to counter act the hate they spread around the world, the teaching that end up slaughtering innocent people, is to product more and more oil. Bury their oil business, which we can, and end this madness called Wahhabism.
5
Saudi Arabia remains in grotesque violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that was proclaimed by the United Nations General Assembly in Paris on 10 December 1948 General Assembly resolution 217 A. It provides a common standard of achievements for all peoples and all nations. It sets out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected. The resolution was adopted by a majority of 48 countries from among the 58 members of the United Nations at that time.
Saudi Arabia, USSR, South Africa, Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, Czechoslovakia, Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and Yugoslavia abstained because they did not have the audacity to vote against it.
Saudi Arabia's flagrant violations include the following articles as example:
Article 5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. (WOMEN NEED WRITTEN PERMISSION)
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government;
It is time to hold their feet to fire as we did with South Africa.
Saudi Arabia, USSR, South Africa, Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, Czechoslovakia, Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and Yugoslavia abstained because they did not have the audacity to vote against it.
Saudi Arabia's flagrant violations include the following articles as example:
Article 5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. (WOMEN NEED WRITTEN PERMISSION)
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government;
It is time to hold their feet to fire as we did with South Africa.
10
At its heart, religion is supposed to be about love for one another -- as in the teachings of Christ, and other prophets.
What it has been, for untold years -- and esp today, within its more radical elements -- is the bane of society.
I hope the world grows out of the need for religion, someday.
What it has been, for untold years -- and esp today, within its more radical elements -- is the bane of society.
I hope the world grows out of the need for religion, someday.
4
Oil. Money. Nothing else to say because nothing else matters.
1
Oh I think you forgot hatred. Oil, money and hatred. To a great extent this is an Islamic civil war. We need to contain it. Maybe a huge wall can help?
2
It's astounding that people can get all worked up and go kill and be killed because of a religious belief that can't be proven. My god's better than your god - but you can't see either of them. Incomprehensible even to most of us who believe in a higher power but don't need a man-made middle man to communicate with it.
13
There is no evidence whatsoever in all of science that nature is whimsical, only that it is utterly indifferent.
"Ostensibly a critical ally"
Critical ally of whom, exactly? Oil company executives, weapons manufacturers, war mongers in government. The Bushes. "Ally" of the average American? No way.
When the people the US government supports splits so decisively from the interests of the majority of the American people, our Republic is in terrible trouble.
Critical ally of whom, exactly? Oil company executives, weapons manufacturers, war mongers in government. The Bushes. "Ally" of the average American? No way.
When the people the US government supports splits so decisively from the interests of the majority of the American people, our Republic is in terrible trouble.
14
Strangely, this dates back to the 1920s. Terrible trouble indeed.
1
America has frustrated Saudi policy makers for years. Ostensibly a critical ally, sheltered from its enemies by abundantly flowing oil, the democracy has spent untold millions promoting Trumpism, the radical form of republicanism that inspired the 2016 election and that now inflames the United States.
2
If we are no longer dependent on Saudi oil, why should “The World Reaps What the Saudis Sow”? Between the radical and extreme right-wing regimes of Israel and the obsolete Saudi monarchy, the western world is between a hard place and a rock.
1
We are in an era (thanks, in part, to fracking) of inexpensive oil. And so we are once again buying huge pickups and gas guzzlers, and slowing down our transition to solar and wind energy.
The tragedy is that crude oil is a very valuable and important natural resource. We have managed, in a single century, to use up and destroy almost all of a wonderful and irreplaceable treasure, which future generations will curse us for not understanding the value of what we thoughtlessly threw away.
Where will you get grease and lubricating oil from a hundred years from now, when all the crude oil is gone? We can come up with substitutes for some parts of petroleum.... but lubricants are going to be hard to come by.
The tragedy is that crude oil is a very valuable and important natural resource. We have managed, in a single century, to use up and destroy almost all of a wonderful and irreplaceable treasure, which future generations will curse us for not understanding the value of what we thoughtlessly threw away.
Where will you get grease and lubricating oil from a hundred years from now, when all the crude oil is gone? We can come up with substitutes for some parts of petroleum.... but lubricants are going to be hard to come by.
5
S. I. Hayakawa, professor of linguistics and semantics, author of "Language in Thought and Action", UCSF chancellor and later U.S. Senator from California would have a field day parsing your overheated thesis, so front-loaded with pejoratives like "radical", "extremists", "hard-liners". It reads like a recycled NY Times editorial excoriating the New Left for its excesses during the 1960s.
The history of how Saudi Arabia became "Saudi Arabia" would make a big book. Suffice it to say, after ibn Saʿūd led his clan to overthrow the al-Rashīds in 1902 and withstand an Ottoman Turk siege until Lawrence of Arabia came along (1915) ibn Saʿūd renewed his clan's alliance (made in 1703) with another clan, clerics descended from Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb. In return for his protection the al-Wahhāb clan sanctified al-Saʿūd's clan as God's instrument on the Arabian Peninsula. That simple.
It's a matter of perspective. The al-Wahhāb interpretation of Islam isn't "extremist" or "radical" at all, from their perspective, but conservative. Adherents live by tenets in the Noble Qurʾān (in Arabic: “Recitation”), the word of God revealed by Archangel Gabriel to The Prophet. Believers aren't "radicals" or "extremists". They submit, obey the teachings in the Qurʾān, lessons taught by learned clerics. It's the same kind of fundamentalism found in Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity.
Sicarri, Haredi, Hindutva, monks, Puritans, Crusaders and Jihadists have been with us for a long, long time.
The history of how Saudi Arabia became "Saudi Arabia" would make a big book. Suffice it to say, after ibn Saʿūd led his clan to overthrow the al-Rashīds in 1902 and withstand an Ottoman Turk siege until Lawrence of Arabia came along (1915) ibn Saʿūd renewed his clan's alliance (made in 1703) with another clan, clerics descended from Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb. In return for his protection the al-Wahhāb clan sanctified al-Saʿūd's clan as God's instrument on the Arabian Peninsula. That simple.
It's a matter of perspective. The al-Wahhāb interpretation of Islam isn't "extremist" or "radical" at all, from their perspective, but conservative. Adherents live by tenets in the Noble Qurʾān (in Arabic: “Recitation”), the word of God revealed by Archangel Gabriel to The Prophet. Believers aren't "radicals" or "extremists". They submit, obey the teachings in the Qurʾān, lessons taught by learned clerics. It's the same kind of fundamentalism found in Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity.
Sicarri, Haredi, Hindutva, monks, Puritans, Crusaders and Jihadists have been with us for a long, long time.
4
It turns out that all sentience is mortal and all self-aware beings die.
2
The New York Times need to ask itself why it has taken so long to come to this obvious conclusion.
4
Conspiracy bulletin:
I have whip-lash here in NYT-land:
Yesterday? Bernie Sanders named a platform committee, with those who blame Israel for the Palestinian problem (disclosure - I blame the Pals)
Readers' comments were a deluge of how ISRAEL runs US foreign (and domestic) policy
TODAY, SAUD run US foreign policy
Do these two ancient middle-east Semites take turns - alternate days- corrupting American foreign policy, seems so...
=
The REAL DEAL (over simplified), is Saud =Sunni, Iran = Shia,
Recall sunni favor Muslim leadership by colleague-ship,think Papal succession via College of Cardinals
Shia favor leadership by lineal descent
This split goes back to 750 or so, Christian counting; they have been at war ever since (think Iran v Iraq...)
Most green-on-green butchery is Shia v.Sunni, although alignments are not so tidy, -- T E Lawrence in Arabia in 1917 had to unify the sunni locals
OUR government of late favors Shia/ Iran, by nuclear and financial empowerment thereto
Our 'taking sides' - - - demonizes Saud:
1) recently pointing to Saud's missing 28 pages of 911,
(2) herein Saud-ifying European jihadis
Kosovar jihadis, now only add to intra Islamic carnage, which should be our goal, arm both sides, with local weaponry
- and do NOT threaten US
This article is disinformation in service of Irani /shia victory, the worst of Islam (from a western perspective)
END conspiracy bulletin
Recall Obama bowing from the waist to Saud King?
Fickle fellow
I have whip-lash here in NYT-land:
Yesterday? Bernie Sanders named a platform committee, with those who blame Israel for the Palestinian problem (disclosure - I blame the Pals)
Readers' comments were a deluge of how ISRAEL runs US foreign (and domestic) policy
TODAY, SAUD run US foreign policy
Do these two ancient middle-east Semites take turns - alternate days- corrupting American foreign policy, seems so...
=
The REAL DEAL (over simplified), is Saud =Sunni, Iran = Shia,
Recall sunni favor Muslim leadership by colleague-ship,think Papal succession via College of Cardinals
Shia favor leadership by lineal descent
This split goes back to 750 or so, Christian counting; they have been at war ever since (think Iran v Iraq...)
Most green-on-green butchery is Shia v.Sunni, although alignments are not so tidy, -- T E Lawrence in Arabia in 1917 had to unify the sunni locals
OUR government of late favors Shia/ Iran, by nuclear and financial empowerment thereto
Our 'taking sides' - - - demonizes Saud:
1) recently pointing to Saud's missing 28 pages of 911,
(2) herein Saud-ifying European jihadis
Kosovar jihadis, now only add to intra Islamic carnage, which should be our goal, arm both sides, with local weaponry
- and do NOT threaten US
This article is disinformation in service of Irani /shia victory, the worst of Islam (from a western perspective)
END conspiracy bulletin
Recall Obama bowing from the waist to Saud King?
Fickle fellow
1
Our amazing key "allies!"
1) Saudi Arabia
2) Israel
3) Pakistan
Israeli extremism, criminal abuse and killing of Palestinians (and Lebanese), along with illegal seizures of their land, turns virtually the entire Arab and Muslim world against us, and serves as readymade inspiration for every lunatic that Saudi Arabia's global Wahabi crusade inspires, while the Saudis single handedly pervert the practice of Islam across the world. Meanwhile, Pakistan takes boatloads of our money while supporting, arming, giving sanctuary to and guiding terrorists who kill and maim our troops and undercut our vital interests in Afghanistan - and uses us to kill terrorists who have lost their usefulness to Pakistan, making us feel very proud of our amazing prowess in killing terrorist leaders (even as we only do exactly what Pakistan wants us to).
And these, as above, are our supposed key "allies!"
Who then are our enemies?
1) Saudi Arabia
2) Israel
3) Pakistan
Israeli extremism, criminal abuse and killing of Palestinians (and Lebanese), along with illegal seizures of their land, turns virtually the entire Arab and Muslim world against us, and serves as readymade inspiration for every lunatic that Saudi Arabia's global Wahabi crusade inspires, while the Saudis single handedly pervert the practice of Islam across the world. Meanwhile, Pakistan takes boatloads of our money while supporting, arming, giving sanctuary to and guiding terrorists who kill and maim our troops and undercut our vital interests in Afghanistan - and uses us to kill terrorists who have lost their usefulness to Pakistan, making us feel very proud of our amazing prowess in killing terrorist leaders (even as we only do exactly what Pakistan wants us to).
And these, as above, are our supposed key "allies!"
Who then are our enemies?
4
Insane people + lots of money = trouble for everyone else.
2
A little late, but great editorial and we need to see a LOT more of this.
5
Hey, it's their religion, and in the United States religion is trump.
3
I don't want my government having ANYTHING to do with the Saudis, I am not alone, and I believe the MAJORITY feel the same way, is it not time our government started listening to us?
And, don't tell me it's more complicated than that, let's just make it as simple as that.
And, don't tell me it's more complicated than that, let's just make it as simple as that.
4
Oil and guns. Is there no other country (or countries) we could do business with to pick up the 10% of oil imports we get from Saudi Arabia so we can get out of their grip? Are American gun manufacturers funding the arms that extremists then use against us??? Is there no ethics whatsoever in these businesses?
4
Canada has oil but we refuse to build a pipeline. Instead, we look the other way and buy from KSA and Venezuela.
Canada just approved a $15B deal to sell arms to the KSA
2
The Keystone will employ 15 Americans, but destroy thousands of miles of our country taking Canada's oil to the Gulf to be shipped out. Nobody with a brain cell working wants the US to be used in that way, and nobody with a brain supports the Keystone, or any other abuse of the US for foreign profit.
3
U.S. should pressure Saudi Arabia to stop supporting all the Madrasas all over the world with their money and extreme form of Islamic ideas. The Madrasas are the breeding ground for terrorism. They must be replaced with modern regular science based schools.
2
The Saudi government spends billions, annually, on building and staffing mosques, Moslem centers, and madrassas to spread the Wahhabi creed. This includes most of the 960 mosques that have been built here, in the U.S., since September 11, 2001. Wahhabism is vehemently anti-Western, and teaches intolerance towards anyone who is not a Wahhabi adherent.
For more information, read the article “The Saudi Connection: Wahhabism and Global Jihad” by Carol E.B. Choksy and Jamsheed Choksy on the web site of the journal World Affairs dated May/ June 2015.
For more information, read the article “The Saudi Connection: Wahhabism and Global Jihad” by Carol E.B. Choksy and Jamsheed Choksy on the web site of the journal World Affairs dated May/ June 2015.
3
It's BILLIONS not millions. And the victims have been the historically grown and wonderfully rich Islamic cultures from Java to Morocco and from Sarajevo to Timbuktu. Saudi-funded jihadis have been been bulldozing centuries-old mosques and burning centuries-old Islamic books, but, most cruelly, impressed brutal civil war, genital mutilation, and barbaric Sharia laws on hundreds of millions of Muslims. In comparison to what the Saudis have done to the Islamic world, 9/11 is just a minor footnote.
1
Umm.
A Trump-like flip in the NYT propaganda machine.
But the title of the piece should be more like "The World Reaps What the US Enabled."
I think it timely that Michael Moore's documentary "Where to Invade Next" is about to be released. I gather that the NYT choice is Saudia Arabia,.
A Trump-like flip in the NYT propaganda machine.
But the title of the piece should be more like "The World Reaps What the US Enabled."
I think it timely that Michael Moore's documentary "Where to Invade Next" is about to be released. I gather that the NYT choice is Saudia Arabia,.
2
The only real surprise about recent criticism of Saudi Arabia by the mainstream media is the fact that it took so long. The media's acquiescence and appeasement of Saudi Arabia over the past several decades has been appalling.
The Saudis somehow managed to buy or scare everyone off, but such articles and editorials are better late than never.
Now the big question is when Israel, the other incubator of radical Islam, will get its just desserts in the press. But I'm not holding my breath.
The Saudis somehow managed to buy or scare everyone off, but such articles and editorials are better late than never.
Now the big question is when Israel, the other incubator of radical Islam, will get its just desserts in the press. But I'm not holding my breath.
2
Has anyone considered that a drone strike on Riyadh might be warrantied and give us the best return on our dollar.
We don't need to be their oil mercenaries anymore. Natural gas.
When(and if) we get to see the redacted 9/11 stuff on who financed the terrorists and why they had to flee the US in the following days the roar from the people might make it happen.
We don't need to be their oil mercenaries anymore. Natural gas.
When(and if) we get to see the redacted 9/11 stuff on who financed the terrorists and why they had to flee the US in the following days the roar from the people might make it happen.
1
Sure, Lawrence, as long as you're willing to pay the rest of us for the immediate 50% drop in the stock market and quintupling of oil prices, we're all right behind you.
A good question for all remaining Presidential candidates.
A key lesson of human history, repeated over the past 5 or 6 thousand years, is that a government strongly aligned with a single religious point of view is a dangerous entity. In the name of religion, governments with the power to tax and build a military are dangerous to their citizens and the world. Go back to the Crusades for a great lesson.
Present-day examples include Israel, a constitution-less democracy with a mission to preserve Judiasm, which has reached a point where they will suppress the Arab majority within its borders and occupies neighboring land under the guise of security.
The editorial describes the Saudi Arabia case quite well. ISIS is, of course, the most extreme case today.
In the U.S., we're trying to maintain the church-state separation, although about half our elected officials keep stepping across that line. We should heed these historical lessons. We should also start modulating our support for foreign governments when their religious alignment threatens their own people and other nations.
Present-day examples include Israel, a constitution-less democracy with a mission to preserve Judiasm, which has reached a point where they will suppress the Arab majority within its borders and occupies neighboring land under the guise of security.
The editorial describes the Saudi Arabia case quite well. ISIS is, of course, the most extreme case today.
In the U.S., we're trying to maintain the church-state separation, although about half our elected officials keep stepping across that line. We should heed these historical lessons. We should also start modulating our support for foreign governments when their religious alignment threatens their own people and other nations.
2
Ironically, the religious utopia called "Zion" or "Umma" is a place of harmonious coexistence of diversity.
If we want to see an American parallel, we need look no further than the evangelical Christians who go to African countries to spread the gospel of religiously-based homophobia.
8
It's long past time that the US frankly told the Saudis that we've had it with their double game. Their pact with Wahabism is a threat to our safety. They won't cut the ties? That's their choice but if so, then we're cutting our military ties with them. Let the "kingdom" deal with ISIS and/or on its own and see how that works out.
3
This is old news. The Times and other notable publications often write about this issue. Unfortunately nothing gets done. No serious steps are taken by the US and our European allies to chop off the evil snake's head;Saudi Arabia. Until this happens, its all useless talk!
6
The 9/11 hijackers were not House of Saud Wahhabi. They are political opponents of the Wahhabi House of Saud (Al Qaida was closer to the Salafi, ideologically) who consider the Saud rulers apostates. Al Qaida hates the US because we support The House of Saud, which itself deeply fears more radical versions of Islam everywhere. To suggest that Saudi rulers support Kosavars joining Isis is ridiculous.
The Saudis did build mosques, schools, and hospitals in moderate Islamic nations (the Balkans, Turkey) during the oil boom. This was to counter profound secularist movements in those countries (especially Ataturkism, forms of which extended into the the Balkans) that genuinely did prevent the majority Muslim populations from practicing or learning any form of Islam and denied them social services, or imprisoned and killed them. What the Saudis did is no different than what Christians do in many parts of the world. We call it supporting freedom of religion. When parts of Turkey and the Balkans moved away from political secularism over time, they did not become Wahhabi. Their Islamist movements were a rebirth of what was already there, not Saudi-inspired revolution. Kosavars, all 300 or so, who joined ISIS have their reasons - lack of opportunity to do anything in the crony economy of Kosovo is the main one.
The US supported the Saudis in the first place because of the Cold War. Similarly, Nassar's support of Russia is why we began supporting Israel militarily. Google it.
The Saudis did build mosques, schools, and hospitals in moderate Islamic nations (the Balkans, Turkey) during the oil boom. This was to counter profound secularist movements in those countries (especially Ataturkism, forms of which extended into the the Balkans) that genuinely did prevent the majority Muslim populations from practicing or learning any form of Islam and denied them social services, or imprisoned and killed them. What the Saudis did is no different than what Christians do in many parts of the world. We call it supporting freedom of religion. When parts of Turkey and the Balkans moved away from political secularism over time, they did not become Wahhabi. Their Islamist movements were a rebirth of what was already there, not Saudi-inspired revolution. Kosavars, all 300 or so, who joined ISIS have their reasons - lack of opportunity to do anything in the crony economy of Kosovo is the main one.
The US supported the Saudis in the first place because of the Cold War. Similarly, Nassar's support of Russia is why we began supporting Israel militarily. Google it.
19
Let's prove to the world that we've learned nothing from the W. Bush years and vote in Trump. Another arrogant, willfully ignorant president will make America great again.
7
It's amazing to me that Saudi Arabia has never made it to the state sponsored terrorist list. I wonder why?!
10
Money and Bush connections.
3
The writer Hilary Mantel once lived in Saudi Arabia,and this was her conclusion: 'When you come across an alien culture, you must not automatically respect it. You must sometimes pay it the compliment of hating it'.
It's about time the West said it loud and clear: we hate everything the Saudi regime represents. And our politicians should act accordingly.
It's about time the West said it loud and clear: we hate everything the Saudi regime represents. And our politicians should act accordingly.
9
Saudi Arabia and its regressive and hostile form of Islam is the cancer that is spreading around the world and very few people have tried to understand how they have managed to seed this poison across poor countries in Asia and Africa. Its important to cut off their funding to all mosques teaching their form of hatred as well as target all the secretive organisations in the gulf that help channel the money. These imams on their payrolls need to be put behind bars.
5
If the United States and Kosovo have anything in common - it is that Whabbism and Salafi Islam are taught in various mosques and schools throughout the country. Yes, we have religious schools teaching these forms of Islam in the United States. So, perhaps we need to turn the lens on what is going on in this country as well as Kosovo.
Last year Austria got a lot of negative press when it passed laws to curb foreign Muslim clerics and their influence in Austria. To quote from a NY times op-ed piece (Austria's Islamic Reforms) the laws banned "other countries from financing Islamic groups in Austria, and foreign clerics from leadership positions in Austrian mosques. All imams must speak German, and Muslim clergy must prove “professional suitability,” either by completing the University of Vienna program, or demonstrating equivalent training." I would be very curious to know how much Saudi money is flowing into the United Stated in the same way it did/does for Kosovo - and then I would want it stopped.
Last year Austria got a lot of negative press when it passed laws to curb foreign Muslim clerics and their influence in Austria. To quote from a NY times op-ed piece (Austria's Islamic Reforms) the laws banned "other countries from financing Islamic groups in Austria, and foreign clerics from leadership positions in Austrian mosques. All imams must speak German, and Muslim clergy must prove “professional suitability,” either by completing the University of Vienna program, or demonstrating equivalent training." I would be very curious to know how much Saudi money is flowing into the United Stated in the same way it did/does for Kosovo - and then I would want it stopped.
6
They are not our ally and we need to act accordingly.
4
One need only look at Pakistan, with its 24,000 Saudi funded madrassas, to understand the damage that can be caused by Saudi-exported Wahhabism.
A whole generation of Pakistani Muslims has grown up with an extremist form of Islam that has given them an intolerant, negative view of other faiths.
So it's tragic, but not surprising, that body guard Mumtaz Qadri was hailed as a hero by thousands of Pakistsni Islamists after he murdered Pakistan's Punjab Governor, Salman Taseer, over his opposition to blasphemy laws in Islamabad in 2011.
A whole generation of Pakistani Muslims has grown up with an extremist form of Islam that has given them an intolerant, negative view of other faiths.
So it's tragic, but not surprising, that body guard Mumtaz Qadri was hailed as a hero by thousands of Pakistsni Islamists after he murdered Pakistan's Punjab Governor, Salman Taseer, over his opposition to blasphemy laws in Islamabad in 2011.
11
I can't think of a more ridiculous display of idolatry than blasphemy laws. As if the universe will collapse because somebody says or does something.
2
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight -- We were attacked on 9/11 by mostly Saudi terrorists funded directly or indirectly by more Saudis who are the worst tyrants in the Middle East & the main source spreading Islamic extremist hatred of the West, but they're our closest allies because they’ve got oil they want to sell to us. Then we invaded Iraq because it was supposedly a tyranny we wanted to make democratic but that had nothing to do with 9/11 and no Al-Qaeda at the time we attacked (plenty there now though & ISIS), in order to get their WMD they didn’t have & weren’t a threat to us if they did. And we did this because our President said he was advised by the Prince of Peace to start a war, and who helped some of the Saudis escape from America after 9/11 & later let Osama Bin Laden, another Saudi get away. The War in Iraq unnecessarily killed thousands of Americans which we did to save Americans who were in no danger from the thousands of Iraqis we killed to save them. This all cost us trillions of tax dollars & it was advocated by fiscally responsible conservatives who are “pro life” and who were strong advocates of war though most of them avoided the draft when it was their turn to serve in another unnecessary war they supported others serving in.
And now after the West saved Muslims in Kosovo, the Saudis are recruiting them to help ISIS our mortal enemy.
All this is to secure fossil fuel the burning of which is going to destroy the earth.
Got it.
And now after the West saved Muslims in Kosovo, the Saudis are recruiting them to help ISIS our mortal enemy.
All this is to secure fossil fuel the burning of which is going to destroy the earth.
Got it.
177
Indeed. Thanks for your devastating sketch of the comprehensive lunacy of it all!
3
This is an excellent review of what's gone on up to now. The question remains how do we short circuit this chain of events to bring about some different outcome in the future. We can't blame everything on the Law of Unintended Consequences.
3
Nice, but you left out the part of all the money made by certain people and industries via these apparent misadventures. The logic will emerge, and it ain't pretty.
3
We need a new and bold foreign policy in the Middle East. Iran should be our partner, not Saudi Arabia. It is a country filled with a relatively moderate, secular populace. In Iran, life doesn't revolve around religion. There women run businesses and cover their hair with fashionable headscarves rather than the niqab and abaya required throughout most of Saudi Arabia. Because of its history as a descendant state of Persia, Iran is filled with a proud and historically minded people who value secular culture and traditions alongside religion. And because it is Shia and relatively moderate, Iran has been immune to much of the extremism found in Sunni states.
Ok, there's the death to america stuff. The funding of Hezbollah. Many in Iran lament the state of their government. As far as death to america, many who have visited there have said that it is really a hyperbolic slogan. They blame many of their problems on our meddling in their affairs by supporting the Shah and then later arming Iraq against them (they have a point). But a majority of Iranians hold a positive view of the US. And at the end of the day, they were one of the few Middle East countries were candlelight vigils were widespread following 911. Why? Because they don't believe in Jihad and have secular, modern values.
Iran is a golden opportunity. We must find a way to loosen the noose that Saudi Arabia has on us and push Iran on the secular course its people are ready to embrace.
Ok, there's the death to america stuff. The funding of Hezbollah. Many in Iran lament the state of their government. As far as death to america, many who have visited there have said that it is really a hyperbolic slogan. They blame many of their problems on our meddling in their affairs by supporting the Shah and then later arming Iraq against them (they have a point). But a majority of Iranians hold a positive view of the US. And at the end of the day, they were one of the few Middle East countries were candlelight vigils were widespread following 911. Why? Because they don't believe in Jihad and have secular, modern values.
Iran is a golden opportunity. We must find a way to loosen the noose that Saudi Arabia has on us and push Iran on the secular course its people are ready to embrace.
5
The US has been double-crossing Iran since WW II.
1
Every time we fill up a tank at gas station, we are funding this menace.
6
Perfect - the u.s. sends billions to israel and billions to the saudis. What could go wrong there?
4
I don't think Wahhabism should be called a radical form of Sunni Islam. It is not all that different from Salafism, which goes back something like 800 years and has millions of adherents.
2
Saudi Arabia is a family not a country. The devil's bargain with the ruling family was that the Wahhabis were free to make trouble outside of the country but not inside. Only when the Saud family fears the USA reaction to Wahhabi sponsored terrorism more than an internal threat by the Wahhabis will this situation stop.
Not as farfetched as it sounds. In 1923-24 the Saud family conquered the Hejaz with the help of the Wahhabi Ikwan tribe. There was a falling out when the Ikwans insisted on expanding wahhabism to British territories and the Sauds slaughtered the Ikwans at the battle of Sabailla in 1929.
Not as farfetched as it sounds. In 1923-24 the Saud family conquered the Hejaz with the help of the Wahhabi Ikwan tribe. There was a falling out when the Ikwans insisted on expanding wahhabism to British territories and the Sauds slaughtered the Ikwans at the battle of Sabailla in 1929.
2
Don't blame the Saudis....they don't hide what they do....Blame our governments for supporting them and their ugliness. Why do we support them? What is the matter with us? These are the people we elect, time after time. Enough.
1
Our "good friends" the Saudi's in bed with the Bush clan for many years....why even go on?
5
This article breezes past the real issue. The very radical fundamentalist Christian's numbering in the millions here in the US and elsewhere along with the very radical fundamentalist Islamists all agree that they know how human history will end. For the Christians Jesus will return and rule and for the Islamists, Allah will rule and all will submit to Him. It is as simple as that and the vast majority of the world are just too confounded to understand that all these fundamentalist really believe in their quest to have this final end come about at any cost. Scientists that believe in "Black Holes" just cannot come to grips with Fundamentalist Religions. Ideas are very hard to eradicate.
1
I didn't realize scientists that believe in "Black Holes" were trying to come to grips with Fundamentalist Religions.
2
vast amounts of oil and energy are a very bad-mix with religious fanaticism...
which is easier:
for the Saudi's and the Gulf to return to the 19th ( sic, 9th ) Century,
or for the West to return to the 1930s...
ARAMCO hijacked any realistic opportunities for lasting 'peace' decades ago,
and after twenty-five years of undervalued resources following world war 2,
the 1st-world was clearly addicted - - -
the die was cast:
greed without consequences made violence the rule of the region.
thus, having made a devil's-bargain, any cure is fraught with multiple dangers.
admitting the West's collaboration in triggering and sustaining these realities would be a beneficial first step.
in one sense it is actually far-more an "us" problem:
our unbridled consumption has unleashed these sharia-based horrors upon the world.
the wicked-twin of the genie has been loosed from the jar...
next: _____.
"Tolerance" means putting up with, which begs the question, why should they/we? It's why Trump is gaining ground. Lots of people unfettered by a duty to political correctness have asked why anyone would protect a group(s) who have demonstrated the behaviors/intentions and support of radical Islam. It kind of reminds me of the guy who went to live with bears, considering himself special enough to be befriended. We know how that went. I'd say the commitment to tolerance should be replaced by the pursuit of unflinching understanding. For example, why dance around these two radical imams who draw crowds of young men? What is being protected by the inaction? Certainly not freedom, because these guys plan to kill it. Maybe it's time our politicians stopped trying to placate and become more explicit in how the differences are a problem. Not way be Trump, but a little more backbone and a little less back rubbing with Saudis and others suspected of supporting the Islamic State. Pretending we can live with that ideology is like trying to live with the bears.
5
Will the American people ever see the missing 28 pages that will prove the point?
4
All seem to agree that the Saudis are no friends of democracy and are the backbone providing financial and moral support for various radical Islamist groups. The real question is why western states have been so tolerant of Saudi Arabia? Could it be that the Saudis are using their enormous financial resources to convince western leaders to look the other way? It will be interesting to see how Hilary Clinton, if she becomes President, will deal with this problem; given that the Clinton Foundation has received millions from Saudi donors!!!
5
The civilised world sanctioned South Africa for apartheid.
Now, it is long overdue that Saudi Arabia be similarly sanctioned for its denial of human rights to women, support of slavery and the spread of extremist Wahabism.
Now, it is long overdue that Saudi Arabia be similarly sanctioned for its denial of human rights to women, support of slavery and the spread of extremist Wahabism.
15
NYT, dont preach to me.
I know what going on in the world.
Talk to your man, Obama.
he threatened to veto the 9/11 bill which will allow us to sue the Saudis for the 9/11 tragedy.
enough is enough.
I know what going on in the world.
Talk to your man, Obama.
he threatened to veto the 9/11 bill which will allow us to sue the Saudis for the 9/11 tragedy.
enough is enough.
3
Considering that Kosovo became Muslim after centuries of "liberal" Ottoman ethnic cleansing that forced the Serbs to flee their country or be sold into slavery or killed, The Times is quite biased in the way it spins this story. The "liberal" Muslims who occupied Kosovo persecuted the remaining Christians. When the Ottoman empire fell after WW1, the Serbs turned the tables on the Muslims. Ever since there has been tension and violence between the groups and the Muslims have not been without sin in perpetrating the violence, the "liberal" Muslim Kosovo Liberation Army leading the violent resistance, first to Yugoslav security forces and then to the Serbs.
5
This is your classic inter-ethnic population growth race for political control of a region that illustrates what has driven genocidal warfare since tribes first self-organized.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I am the Muslim who has an obligation to study the Quran daily. "Wahabbis" are not Sunnis. You have first, a terminology problem. There are four schools of Ah lal Sunnah Wal Jam'a. You see? Just telling you the actual name of faith is problematic. Anyway, there are four traditional schools that teach Sunni Islam. Wahabbi is NOT one of them. We believe in scholarship transmitted and interpreted as passed down from and through chains of historical transmission. "Salafi" is the term they like more. They say they study directly from the early Muslims without a train because such passing down of knowledge corrupts it. Sunnah means you follow a path of a person before you. Christians in this jargon, follow the Sunnah of Jesus. Saudi confusion over ultra-orthodox teachings in not inherent in the religion, but in their world view that constantly demands purity. Only a Saudi can be a citizen in Saudi Arabia. They have no naturalization. It is their right to cultural fixate on being pure, but as an American, obviously it is a problematic world view. Please quit saying they are Sunni Muslims. Every Muslim is a sunni Muslim and then, at the same time, every Muslim who does not adhere to one of the four classical madhabs is not.
2
Does anyone ever question the validity of those chains of historical transmission?
1
The tone makes the music, talking down is problematic, always!
the Saudis reject classical Sunni chains of scholarly historical transmission. I think you are asking about reform. I would ask you to reform yourself to accept that I am free to interpret and practice my faith in any peaceful way I see fit as an American. Islam is protected by the US Constitution, even the ultra orthodox interpretations embraced by the Saudis. It's the racism that makes many whites think they get to OK someone's religion that is blatantly un-American and illegal.
Kosovo is the tip of the iceberg as the proverb goes. Our relationship to provide security to the Aal-e-Saud (Saud’s children) goes back to the fateful day on USS Quincy (Feb 20, 1945). This was the meeting between President Roosevelt and King Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud. That was over 70 years ago, we were to be provided Gasoline and we would provide security to the kingdom. Both have kept their end of the bargain. When the Saudis paid off the US companies to regain total control on ARAMCO, our government did not intervened thinking that the Saudis need to sell oil anyways and we won't be affected.
US/Europe were not concerned with the spread of Wahhabism in their land as they liked the idea of the Saudis calling the shots with regards to anything Islamic.
This extremist ideology was used by us to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan. Saudis, ISI, and CIA created the first Wahhabi fighting force – Taliban. It was very shortsighted of our leaders that we let this genie out of the bottle, it has morphed in Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusrah, AQAP, AQM, Boko Haram, JI, and now ISIS/ISIL
In order to eradicate this cancerous growth which has metastasized; it has spread from to Pakistan, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Kuwait, Jordan, Hamas, Egypt, Somalia, Turkey (Erdogan), Algeria, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Chechnya, China, EU, UK, Canada, USA, and Kosovo. The question is how do we kill this snake, and the answer is crush its head; and the head is Saudi Arabia.
US/Europe were not concerned with the spread of Wahhabism in their land as they liked the idea of the Saudis calling the shots with regards to anything Islamic.
This extremist ideology was used by us to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan. Saudis, ISI, and CIA created the first Wahhabi fighting force – Taliban. It was very shortsighted of our leaders that we let this genie out of the bottle, it has morphed in Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusrah, AQAP, AQM, Boko Haram, JI, and now ISIS/ISIL
In order to eradicate this cancerous growth which has metastasized; it has spread from to Pakistan, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Kuwait, Jordan, Hamas, Egypt, Somalia, Turkey (Erdogan), Algeria, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Chechnya, China, EU, UK, Canada, USA, and Kosovo. The question is how do we kill this snake, and the answer is crush its head; and the head is Saudi Arabia.
9
And yet - Saudi money has been allowed everywhere under the guise of religious freedom. Saudis are building 300 mosques in Germany yet refuse to accept even a single refugee.
It is time the West as a whole rewrites the Saudi-Qatari-UAE engagement book. No more imams, no more money flooding into the West. Let them support "charities" at home.
It is time the West as a whole rewrites the Saudi-Qatari-UAE engagement book. No more imams, no more money flooding into the West. Let them support "charities" at home.
9
I wouldn't be surprised if Kosovo turned out to be a Saudi proving ground for radicalizing a democracy, post-Arab spring.
4
Look..............everyone - EVERYONE - knows that the Saudis hate America..... you know it, I know it, Bob Dole knows it, George Bush I & II know it. (Bob and I are not in the Saudi's hip pocket - do robes have a hip pocket?).
Anyway ....... why it is that we allow a third - perhaps fourth - world country to lead us about by the nose is beyond me.
It's our oil. We found it, we developed it. we produce it, we transport it. Anything else is nonsense.
Anyway ....... why it is that we allow a third - perhaps fourth - world country to lead us about by the nose is beyond me.
It's our oil. We found it, we developed it. we produce it, we transport it. Anything else is nonsense.
1
We are extremely tolerant of other regimes undoing whatever America has achieved through sacrifices of our men/women in uniform and costly military campaigns. The article rightly points out how S.A. promotes extremisn jn Kosovo and other countries. Similarly Turkey is wolfing hard to destroy Kurdish enclaves in Syria and N. Iraq who have established a secular, liberal, and democratic societies that recognize and honorswomen/minority-rights. Similar situation with Iran's influence in Shiite part of Iraq.
Or Pakistan and its support of Taliban.
the situation will get worse and all the newly born democracies will be replaced by extrimism unless US takes a serious and assertive stand against all those regimes. what an irony to be a superpower and the biggest pushover!
Or Pakistan and its support of Taliban.
the situation will get worse and all the newly born democracies will be replaced by extrimism unless US takes a serious and assertive stand against all those regimes. what an irony to be a superpower and the biggest pushover!
5
cant agree more.. Seen it in real life. When Somalia civil war broke we flee and end up refugee camps in Kenya, I remember Saudi funded Madarasa with good foods and uniforms... Thnks to my mom she knew exactly what a lot people admits now... Somalia was very leberal country my mom went school wit pants and shirts, today there no more Wahhabis blood took all academics and schools... I can spat this people by looking them, they no political Islam in Somalia, now there all Shabab,
42
US and European meddling in the Muslim world is what brought the Saudi family into power in the first place -- all part of the lust for oil drilling contracts. That also is what stirred up Iran and Iraq, leading to Saddam and to the fanatics who rule Iran.
Western meddling, with the US playing a key role, is what set Japan off on its militaristic adventurism in WWII. Western meddling, and backlash to it, also led to the current government of China.
When, if ever, will we learn to stop this imperialistic meddling?
Western meddling, with the US playing a key role, is what set Japan off on its militaristic adventurism in WWII. Western meddling, and backlash to it, also led to the current government of China.
When, if ever, will we learn to stop this imperialistic meddling?
3
I will never forget the image of George W. Bush holding hands with the King of Saudi Arabia. There it was in all its naked realism: the Saudis are the friends of the Bushes and Cheneys and those who batten on the oil industry, but they are no friends of the United States or the rest of the western world. They use us to further their own ends, and we pretend they are our allies.
The Saudi-financed madrassas in Kosovo and Pakistan and all over the Muslim world prove that they are not. The Saudis who flew the planes on 9/11 prove they are not. When will we look past the self-serving rhetoric of the oilsters and see the reality?
The Saudi-financed madrassas in Kosovo and Pakistan and all over the Muslim world prove that they are not. The Saudis who flew the planes on 9/11 prove they are not. When will we look past the self-serving rhetoric of the oilsters and see the reality?
8
Bad Saudis? That's nothing. Let's not forget our American government's seed funding of Muslim extremists, co-managed by Pakistan, all also funded partly by wealthy American extremists bent on proxy fighting the "Rooskies" in Afghanistan. The beneficiary of America's Cold War largesse? The indefatigable, Osama Bin Laden. Bad Saudis? More like bad Americans, for we certainly showed them the effectiveness of Muslim extremism.
1
Saudi Arabia is indeed a major problem in part created by Western support for the kingdom but the Kosovo war was not a war against oppression for democracy. The West formed an alliance with the KLA which was considered until a short time before the war as a terrorist organization. The West fought against Serbia and got the full force of Saudi Arabia. In Iraq the West fought against a tyrant, Hussein, and reinforced Iran. This being said the Saudias are now a major source of worry in the Middle East and the world.
2
Subsequent to the ill-advised attack on Iraq by GWB a misinformation campaign of Shia crescent was started by the Saudis through Jordan’s King who told us on talk show circuits such as Charlie Rose that Iran and the Shias are about to take over the Middle East and would control the oil with Iraq and the Ayatollahs and would create havoc in the industrialized world. Every possible reason was given to frame all the Middle Eastern conflicts into a sectarian narrative. People who have lived for centuries in perfect harmony between sects were now challenged by the Wahhabi establishment funded by the Saudis and UAE. They imported extremists from Afghanistan and Pakistan and introduced them in Iraq, Bahrain, and Syria.
However, for Saudis it is different as majority of the population in the Persian Gulf are Shia Muslims. CIA World fact book tells us that the total population of the Gulf is 155.8 million 151.6 million Muslims and 106.12 million (69.9%) are Shia Muslims. In Eastern Province KSA, where oil is located, majority are Shia Muslims. The overall Shia Muslim population worldwide is about 15%. Saudis have introduced Takfiri/Wahhabi ideology to undermine primarily the Shia Muslims throughout the world.
Most terrorist attacks are conducted by the Saudi inspired Wahhabis/takfirist, whether it was 9-11 where 16 of 19 Hijackers were Saudis to Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, AQAP, ISIS, or Hamas
The Saudis are still at it and we have bought it hook line and sinker as in Yemen.
However, for Saudis it is different as majority of the population in the Persian Gulf are Shia Muslims. CIA World fact book tells us that the total population of the Gulf is 155.8 million 151.6 million Muslims and 106.12 million (69.9%) are Shia Muslims. In Eastern Province KSA, where oil is located, majority are Shia Muslims. The overall Shia Muslim population worldwide is about 15%. Saudis have introduced Takfiri/Wahhabi ideology to undermine primarily the Shia Muslims throughout the world.
Most terrorist attacks are conducted by the Saudi inspired Wahhabis/takfirist, whether it was 9-11 where 16 of 19 Hijackers were Saudis to Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, AQAP, ISIS, or Hamas
The Saudis are still at it and we have bought it hook line and sinker as in Yemen.
3
Gee, NOW you tell us! A little late don't you think?
3
I was in Kosovo in November 2001 as part of an international NGO to oversee their parliamentary elections. To a person, every Kosovar I met loved Americans for helping to get the Serbs off their backs. It is therefore disheartening to read that radicalism has made whatever inroads it has there. Whatever our military might, we have yet to win the propaganda wars.
3
The USA/SAUDI dispute is out in the open and the USA is in constant search for palaple political, Syria, economic, the possible partial privatiation of Aramco, and now religious , Wahabism, reasons for a possible parting of ways between the two close allies.
Why is that, now?
An Immediate reason is the shy Saudi threat to take over the management of its own its monies, presently mostly lodged in , managed and long coveted by the US to ward off the expected outfall of American claims in American courts, for presumed Saudi responsibility in 9/11; recently legalized by the USA Congress and validated by the supreme court.
Another reason is SAUDI talk about independence from oil , a major weapon in American hands, and the development of an economy less deendent on it!....... ( historically the USA was dead set against Saudi efforts to further the cultivation of basic food comodities:wheat , barley ec that would reduce imports from America)
Basic reasons spring from two potential changes in America's regional strategic outlook with regional powers :a tottering Egypt and a wars torn Saudi Arabia that ordain:
A-reduced confidance in the stability and ability to carry USA demands of present major Arab regimes
B-the development of the American dream of a USA/ISRAEL/IRAN alliance to rule oner the Mddle East.
Islam is brought in only as the sugar coating that makes American moves understandable and acceptable to and supported by the general public of the USA and EU !
Why is that, now?
An Immediate reason is the shy Saudi threat to take over the management of its own its monies, presently mostly lodged in , managed and long coveted by the US to ward off the expected outfall of American claims in American courts, for presumed Saudi responsibility in 9/11; recently legalized by the USA Congress and validated by the supreme court.
Another reason is SAUDI talk about independence from oil , a major weapon in American hands, and the development of an economy less deendent on it!....... ( historically the USA was dead set against Saudi efforts to further the cultivation of basic food comodities:wheat , barley ec that would reduce imports from America)
Basic reasons spring from two potential changes in America's regional strategic outlook with regional powers :a tottering Egypt and a wars torn Saudi Arabia that ordain:
A-reduced confidance in the stability and ability to carry USA demands of present major Arab regimes
B-the development of the American dream of a USA/ISRAEL/IRAN alliance to rule oner the Mddle East.
Islam is brought in only as the sugar coating that makes American moves understandable and acceptable to and supported by the general public of the USA and EU !
1
One reason for the "contradictory and even duplicitous behavior of America's partners in the Persian Gulf" (Iraq...and elsewhere....Latin America, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Japan, sub-Saharan Africa etc. etc. etc.) is because of the contradictory and even duplicitous behavior of American (U.S.) political leaders and their corporate allies. Supporting whoever (including terrorists, war lords, slave owners, drug dealers,"respectable" arms dealers), will support the immediate interests of various sectors of the US political and corporate spectrum, leaving others to clean up the mess, which often includes the misery of millions of innocent local people.
1
As hard as I find it hard to believe, this editorial does not contain the one word that explains so much of the sorry relationship between America and Saudi Arabia, at least in recent history...OIL.
At least until the present oil glut, we have been in deadly embrace with Middle East countries, with Saudi Arabia at the top of the list, because of America's insatiable taste for energy in the form of OIL.
If we need blame to spread around, look in the mirror first.
At least until the present oil glut, we have been in deadly embrace with Middle East countries, with Saudi Arabia at the top of the list, because of America's insatiable taste for energy in the form of OIL.
If we need blame to spread around, look in the mirror first.
2
A theology with inherent violence is a cancer Since it was not removed from its primary site early enough, it has metastasized. Stage 4?
2
What a heavy price we have payed for "cheap and easy oil" from the middle east. This was a bargain with the Devil from the beginning. The big oil companies got their massive profits and political power, the Saudi tribe got royalty and riches, the military industrial complex got wars and rumors of wars and the world got holy war and climate change which now threatens the end of civilization.
8
Put most simply, Saudia Arabia, because of its wealth and reach and religion and views on women, is the most damaging global problem country on earth right now. The global community need to ostracize SA.
3
The problem is not “rogue states”.
The problem is Western hypocrisy.
The last 25 years America´s favorite policy to deal with “rogue states” was regime change by invading, bombing, or inciting civil wars. Some states like Saudi Arabia, which act like “rogue states”, were exempted from such treatment. And not only that. They were and are respected politically and economically on the international stage. For me this raises a basic question. Shall we dispose of “rogue states” by war or shall we try to change them by engaging their leadership politically and economically? –
What we ought not to do is to dispose of one repressive system by war and at the same time pay court to another repressive system right next door. And what is an absolute “no no” is to tolerate “rogue” actions of allies or even to cover up for them. The American government must publish the held back 28 pages of the 9/11 report. The issue is not only to find out possible Saudi involvement in the 9/11 attacks but America´s international credibility concerning integrity, justice, and the truth. For that matter also in Germany there is a need for clarification concerning Saudi connections to Jihadists who were under observation by German security services. The German government knew about it and looked away. Here are some facts. http://www.english.kamus-quantum.com/15.html
The problem is Western hypocrisy.
The last 25 years America´s favorite policy to deal with “rogue states” was regime change by invading, bombing, or inciting civil wars. Some states like Saudi Arabia, which act like “rogue states”, were exempted from such treatment. And not only that. They were and are respected politically and economically on the international stage. For me this raises a basic question. Shall we dispose of “rogue states” by war or shall we try to change them by engaging their leadership politically and economically? –
What we ought not to do is to dispose of one repressive system by war and at the same time pay court to another repressive system right next door. And what is an absolute “no no” is to tolerate “rogue” actions of allies or even to cover up for them. The American government must publish the held back 28 pages of the 9/11 report. The issue is not only to find out possible Saudi involvement in the 9/11 attacks but America´s international credibility concerning integrity, justice, and the truth. For that matter also in Germany there is a need for clarification concerning Saudi connections to Jihadists who were under observation by German security services. The German government knew about it and looked away. Here are some facts. http://www.english.kamus-quantum.com/15.html
Imagine if the Lord's Resistance Army or Westboro Baptist Church sat atop the global oil supply, and spread their warped version of Christianity worldwide via brainwashing schools for 40 years.
Then imagine 16 LRA pilots flew planes into the WTC and we still embrace them? And sent them billions in arms? This is what we are doing for Saudi Arabia's Wahhabis by buying their oil and sending them arms.
Then imagine 16 LRA pilots flew planes into the WTC and we still embrace them? And sent them billions in arms? This is what we are doing for Saudi Arabia's Wahhabis by buying their oil and sending them arms.
3
NYT is right to call Saudi Arabia out for its support of violent extremism. But you misrepresent the gravity of the situation in Kosovo. Of course it is terrible that 314 young Kosovars have joined the fight in Syria. But, the government of Kosovo, with lots of help from the US and Europe, a vibrant, growing civil society, and this country's remarkably strong family structure are hard at work to stem the tide of extremism.
Relative to the overall Muslim population, the problem here doesn't even compare to countries like France, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, etc. About 1 in every 5500 Muslims in Kosovo have gone to fight in Syria. About 1 in every 250 of Belgium's Muslim citizens have joined ISIS.
While recruiting foreign fighters in either Western Europe or Kosovo is made easier by the economic hardship that people face, the social isolation that Kosovars feel from being denied travel in Europe will, thankfully, disappear with the planned lifting of visa restrictions later this year. Any similar reduction in the social exclusion that Muslim immigrants in Western Europe experience is difficult to imagine in the near term. Thus, to focus more attention on the problem in Kosovo is to misrepresent and misunderstand the relative risks.
Living and working here, one sees strong, supportive families, a tradition of tolerance, and progress in social and economic opportunity. These will continue to transform Kosovo into a productive member of the European and world communities.
Relative to the overall Muslim population, the problem here doesn't even compare to countries like France, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, etc. About 1 in every 5500 Muslims in Kosovo have gone to fight in Syria. About 1 in every 250 of Belgium's Muslim citizens have joined ISIS.
While recruiting foreign fighters in either Western Europe or Kosovo is made easier by the economic hardship that people face, the social isolation that Kosovars feel from being denied travel in Europe will, thankfully, disappear with the planned lifting of visa restrictions later this year. Any similar reduction in the social exclusion that Muslim immigrants in Western Europe experience is difficult to imagine in the near term. Thus, to focus more attention on the problem in Kosovo is to misrepresent and misunderstand the relative risks.
Living and working here, one sees strong, supportive families, a tradition of tolerance, and progress in social and economic opportunity. These will continue to transform Kosovo into a productive member of the European and world communities.
4
Curious that after some 70 years of official diplomatic interaction, instead of the medieval Sauds becoming more like their protectors in terms of social and governmental organization, it is the protector who is becoming more like the Sauds - secretive, self-interested, religiously intolerant, worshippers at the alter of manna, and an active enemy of citizen discourse and petition.
1
The latest chapter in this long, sorrowful history of Kosovo is likely to be endless tragic story of other Islamic nations too, unless the international Islam take resolute action to root out the extremist ideology within the religion that presents it as unchanging and static, becoming new normal.
It is the Muslims themselves interpreting Islam, responsible for perpetuating extremism.
Farouk Peru of MECCA online Islamic seminary says this extremist ideology as ‘Islamofascism’. Because of the supremacy of absolutist dogma ..‘Islamofascism is not essentially Islamic but rather an interpretation by the Islamofascists themselves because of their potential to undo the system of teachings they promote’.
"In the final analysis, extremism is really about the fear of ‘multicultural ethos and coexistence’. It is anchored on the belief that one’s own community has the monopoly on truth, there are no other notions of truths, and other claims to truth cannot be tolerated. And it is a belief that is gaining common currency in postnormal times, when pluralism and diversity come knocking on every door, everyone is connected to everyone else, everything is enveloped by contradictions and complexity, and we are perpetually at the edge of chaos. Like monopoly capital, monopolistic truth is evident everywhere – in religious communities as well as those who claim to be secular and atheists". http://criticalmuslim.com/issues/17-extreme/postnormal-blues-ziauddin-sa...
It is the Muslims themselves interpreting Islam, responsible for perpetuating extremism.
Farouk Peru of MECCA online Islamic seminary says this extremist ideology as ‘Islamofascism’. Because of the supremacy of absolutist dogma ..‘Islamofascism is not essentially Islamic but rather an interpretation by the Islamofascists themselves because of their potential to undo the system of teachings they promote’.
"In the final analysis, extremism is really about the fear of ‘multicultural ethos and coexistence’. It is anchored on the belief that one’s own community has the monopoly on truth, there are no other notions of truths, and other claims to truth cannot be tolerated. And it is a belief that is gaining common currency in postnormal times, when pluralism and diversity come knocking on every door, everyone is connected to everyone else, everything is enveloped by contradictions and complexity, and we are perpetually at the edge of chaos. Like monopoly capital, monopolistic truth is evident everywhere – in religious communities as well as those who claim to be secular and atheists". http://criticalmuslim.com/issues/17-extreme/postnormal-blues-ziauddin-sa...
2
65% of Saudis are educated in madrassas and when they graduate, they have to go somewhere...the smart ones get to be imams and are deployed around the world to spread Wahhabism....the not so smart and violent ones go on to jihad....it is a like a giant factory making little bombs and sending them around the world.
1
The neo-imperialist democratic USA has many surrogate colonies with virtually the same relationships that traditionally existed in the golden age of imperialism. The USA provides protection, material, and support; the colonies supply raw material, influence, etc. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Kuwait, etc., are examples with many variations and with many different characteristics. Unlike traditional imperialist structure, the USA has little influence on how these colonies behave toward their own people, their neighbors, and what political/religious export they wish to exercise. USA becomes an enabler with limited control. Divesting completely is not an option as the USA is the world only superpower and wants to remain so. The choices/options are few then.
"44 women and 28 children."
'children'... teenagers are not children. Always the same modern nonsense
'children'... teenagers are not children. Always the same modern nonsense
1
Teenagers are children and they're easily swayed because of their lack of maturity.
Why we continue to consider a country implacably opposed to the very existence of Western civilization an ally is inexplicable.
7
Pondering this question gave T. E. Lawrence one of history's worst cases of PTSD.
1
Saudi Arabia, a true "Axis of Evil" country that somehow never made Bush's list. The US's close relationship to them insults women everywhere. It's time to cut ties to this medieval empire...
4
We have our own culture and we don't insult women everywhere and also make sure they have their wrights according to our country roles. We don't let them work in gogo clubs or something like that and guess what they are happy with that.
Actions speak louder than words, but it's fascinating to see how soft words from the Saudi's and Pakistan somehow deflect attention from their clear actions pushing radical islam. Why are we so constantly fooled by words, why do we credit words with the meanings we want even when everything surrounding the words shouts their falsity? Even in this editorial, the Saudi's words are used to pretend that their actions are not really what they are.
It would be interesting to see a graph comparing income from oil, since the price increases of the 1970's, to the funding of Wahhabism and the rise of radical Islam. I'd guess the correlation would be very strong. And we are losing - Watch the movie "Patriot Games", made roughly 25 years ago, where a few terrorist groups are in small camps in the desert. Compare that with today, where the terrorists - and they are far more terrifying than the ones in Patriot Games - essentially control vast swaths of the desert.
It would be interesting to see a graph comparing income from oil, since the price increases of the 1970's, to the funding of Wahhabism and the rise of radical Islam. I'd guess the correlation would be very strong. And we are losing - Watch the movie "Patriot Games", made roughly 25 years ago, where a few terrorist groups are in small camps in the desert. Compare that with today, where the terrorists - and they are far more terrifying than the ones in Patriot Games - essentially control vast swaths of the desert.
2
And for how long have we not known this? How about that we have always known. It might be of interest to look at the Bush family's long time ties to the 'royal' family. Google it for a start. Than wonder why the bin Laden family, many of whom were in the US on 9/11, were allowed to fly out of the US when all other planes were grounded. And we wonder why the American citizenry is disgusted with politics as usual.
2
I can't name a single Saudi invention, company, brand, or product I use every day. All that money...trillions wasted over the last sixty years....spent on what? Think of all the good that could be done...and was not. Life is meaningless to these people that only want to produce more lives for jihadi fodder..
1
They spend their wealth on everything West makes- whether it's a Rolls or the Stealth Bomber- they want the biggest and the best, our Military Industrial Complex loves them- don't knock it, if not for their stupid spending we may have to invade/occupy them to survive. We just sold them $640 million worth of Cluster bombs for apparent no good reason except to use on the Yemenis.
That is our moral dilemma- they have very little to do. We can pressure our politicians to change the Saudi behaviour, question is our willingness to do the right thing.
That is our moral dilemma- they have very little to do. We can pressure our politicians to change the Saudi behaviour, question is our willingness to do the right thing.
1
The Bush family with their oil fortune were the original enablers.
4
People in the US make tons of money from selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. The lobbyist for that country in the US is The Podesta Group. The Saudi Royal family is a part owner of the Carlyle Group with deals in oil, banking war and spying. Booz Allen is owned by the Carlyle Group. The censored 28 pages of the 9/11 report, (along with many other reports, according to Bob Graham) should be released. Connect the dots folks. The Saudis are not our friends - they our accomplices in the war business.
7
The Bushes are treasonous, close friends of the poisonous snake House of Saud.
2
The comments to this article show how much the minds of the public are controlled. Wahhabism's pernicious effects everywhere were known more than 20 years ago.
This is the first time, NYT calls attention to that "fact". The real question is why now?
The fact is The Clinton / Bush Establishment Party Agenda which includes Obama has been to encourage and support the Saudi's. State Policy !
Now Schumer's "fake concern" over 911 victims has made a complete mockery of the 911 people:
NYP: "Last week’s unanimous passage of a Senate bill making it easier for 9/11 families to sue Saudi Arabia and other foreign terror sponsors was widely heralded as a major victory.
It’s more of a cruel hoax.
It turns out that just before the vote, Sen. Charles Schumer and other proponents of the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act stuffed an amendment into the final draft allowing the attorney general and secretary of state to stop any litigation against the Saudis in its tracks.
Yes, JASTA would remove the statutory restrictions that have prevented 9/11 families from taking the Saudi kingdom to court. But Schumer helped craft an entirely new section to the original bill, giving the Justice and State departments the power to stay court action "indefinitely".
All they have to do is inform the judge hearing the case that the US government has "engaged" with Riyadh in diplomatic talks to resolve the issue.".......(never will happen)
Gaming the Citizens with propaganda never ends!
This is the first time, NYT calls attention to that "fact". The real question is why now?
The fact is The Clinton / Bush Establishment Party Agenda which includes Obama has been to encourage and support the Saudi's. State Policy !
Now Schumer's "fake concern" over 911 victims has made a complete mockery of the 911 people:
NYP: "Last week’s unanimous passage of a Senate bill making it easier for 9/11 families to sue Saudi Arabia and other foreign terror sponsors was widely heralded as a major victory.
It’s more of a cruel hoax.
It turns out that just before the vote, Sen. Charles Schumer and other proponents of the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act stuffed an amendment into the final draft allowing the attorney general and secretary of state to stop any litigation against the Saudis in its tracks.
Yes, JASTA would remove the statutory restrictions that have prevented 9/11 families from taking the Saudi kingdom to court. But Schumer helped craft an entirely new section to the original bill, giving the Justice and State departments the power to stay court action "indefinitely".
All they have to do is inform the judge hearing the case that the US government has "engaged" with Riyadh in diplomatic talks to resolve the issue.".......(never will happen)
Gaming the Citizens with propaganda never ends!
5
Just goes to show that if your country sits on over one fourth of the world's proven oil reserves that you can pretty much do anything, and still get the US to provide for your defense and fighting your wars all while looking the other way. The Saudi Royals know a sucker when they see one.
3
This is the result the world gets EVERY SINGLE time religion is allowed to be injected into government and politics. Just look at the religious freedom laws now being enacted the States that are supposed to be Christian, but allow an entire group of people to be intentionally discriminated against. Religion has been used and manipulated since its inception for greed and control. Marx was right, "religion is the opiate of the masses." Remove religion from politics and denounce those who hide behind it to further their agenda and the fear and continued division everywhere will be diminished.
4
The Saudi dictatorship will collapse soon of oil prices stay low. We should be producing s much as possible to ensure that happens.
1
We have been. Are you aware that domestic oil and gas production has increased under Obama? Most Americans think the opposite is true.
I worked in Kosovo from 2000 to 2002. The Saudis started building mosques in my region in 2001. My interpreter, a young Kosovar Albanian, said, "Can't you make us the 51st state?" Very few State Dept. officials assigned to the US Office in Pristina (precursor to the US Embassy in Kosovo) were allowed to leave their fortified compound to move around Kosovo. I remember visiting the office in 2002 and was astounded when one senior offical asked me, "What's it like out there?" Some say we dropped the ball, but from what I saw, we never had a plan for Kosovo. We too have reaped what we sowed with our shortsightedness.
58
One wonders if the air war on Serbia somehow contributed to the Columbine mass-shooting, which took place during the height of the bombing.
The US needs to stop funding every country in the ME including israel, Egypt, Turkey and Pakistan!
The people of the ME are from the same Semitic tribe so when we send money, we are only encouraging internecine warfare! Muslims are at war with each other like the Christians in northern Ireland! The absurdity of the situation is mind boggling!
Our dollars and weapons are only adding fuel to the fire and we cannot fix this situation no matter how many US troops loose their lives or how much treasure is lost!
The people of the ME are from the same Semitic tribe so when we send money, we are only encouraging internecine warfare! Muslims are at war with each other like the Christians in northern Ireland! The absurdity of the situation is mind boggling!
Our dollars and weapons are only adding fuel to the fire and we cannot fix this situation no matter how many US troops loose their lives or how much treasure is lost!
4
Mazel Tov NYT Editorial Board! It took you almost sixteen years to acknowledge Saudi Arabia as the critical link to 9/11. Then came Madrid, London, Paris, San Bernardino, Belgium. Follow the money. Saudi Arabia has spent over one hundred billion of its petrodollars to spread Wahhabism/Salafism, and the US just let it happen. We have fought in Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria without ever stating the truth: we fight to halt and destroy Saudi Arabia's evil deeds.
7
Like most depictions of the devil in history, Saudi Arabia continues to be a false friend, filthy rich, and spoiling to watch the world burn. And in the name of "God," of course. Truly, a more self evident Satan in history I have never seen. May it be upon their heads.
2
Saudi Arabia -- a Catch 22 relationship for sure.
1
Wahhabism is an 18th century movement that sought to "purify" Islam with the severe, puritanical, intolerant backward teachings of a preacher Wahhab from Najd. There has been a long alliance between the followers of Wahhab and the House of Saud to their mutual benefit. This Wahhabi and Saudi axis did not gain control of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina until the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The British used the Arabs in defeating the Ottoman Empire. The discovery of oil gave the Saudis and Wahhabis the wealth to spread their toxic ideology. The US relationship goes back to FDR and Abdul Aziz, the first king of Saudi Arabia. The US took over from the British in protecting Arab kingdoms to get access to the oil - a Faustian bargain that is still alive. In 1979, with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the largest CIA operation gave us Saudi funded Mujahideen that would morph into Bin Landen and Al Qaeda and the Taliban. From there we had 9/11. After our disastrous Iraq War, we ended up with ISIS. All the GLOBAL terrorism in the name of Islam is founded on the Wahhabi poison (the other "Radical Islam" terrorism is largely regional and not global). The petrodollar funded Wahhabism attacks all moderate forms of Islam and fuels hatred for all non-Muslims and any Muslims that disagree with the Wahhabi/Saudi toxic ideology - not just in Kosovo but everywhere including US. We cannot defeat GLOBAL terrorism in the name of Islam until we stop Saudi Arabia from supporting Wahhabism.
6
Wahhabism is what Islam was invented to make impossible. Every Wahhabist is an impostor of Allah, threatening immortal punishment of mortals.
The U.S. president, Franklin D. Roosevelt, made a grand bargain at the end of World War II with the Saudi King, Abdul Aziz, that the U.S. would provide military defense to Saudi Arabia in return for a promise from Saudi Arabia of assured access to Saudi Arabian oil. The United States has upheld its commitment and Saudi Arabia has honored its commitment, through thick and thin, for 70 years.
Both countries have spawned a share of bad eggs--witness, Osama Bin Laden, out of Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia sometimes leans toward supporting hostile elements in the hope, often vain in my opinion, of bringing them into the fold. But to argue that Saudi Arabia intentionally sponsors extremism abroad does not square with the facts of history or Saudi's conservative bent. Nor is it helpful to attack Saudi Arabia, conservative and very different from America, as hostile to our interests. The Saudis are quiet, reliable and tough, in my experience.
Both countries have spawned a share of bad eggs--witness, Osama Bin Laden, out of Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia sometimes leans toward supporting hostile elements in the hope, often vain in my opinion, of bringing them into the fold. But to argue that Saudi Arabia intentionally sponsors extremism abroad does not square with the facts of history or Saudi's conservative bent. Nor is it helpful to attack Saudi Arabia, conservative and very different from America, as hostile to our interests. The Saudis are quiet, reliable and tough, in my experience.
8
The Saudis may not directly fund terrorism, but they hundred BILLION dollars they have spent on spreading Wahhabism have prepared the ground for jihadist movements the world over. The House of Saud is big and it is impossible to say how many princes sympathize with Al Quaeda or ISIS. But they all sympathize with destroying historically grown Islamic cultures the world over in order to create an Islamic Umma that lives by the most fundamentalist of rules and throws democracy, secularism, the idea of universal human rights and individual freedoms out of the window.
Reliable? Have you had any direct contact with Saudis?
Changing "Kosovo" with "Kosovo and most countries in Western Europe and the Balkans" would have made it into stronger, albeit much belated, editorial.
1
I only bother to try post here because the NYT has such national and global impact.
But the NYT has been utterly useless until very recently on the immensity that it the horrific vile state of Saudi Arabia. The decapitation regime par excellence. Even Assad, the Syrian butcher, assaults us with the Saudi spectacle of sword decapitations. The NYT largely absent on this even when this murdering was for non-violent crimes. Women from the Philippines raped and who retaliated against the rapist beheaded. Nothing or not much in the NYT.
Millions, it's not millions, some respectable estimates, it's 40 BILLION over the past 30 years exporting fanatic Islam.
Many options for the most immense failures of the US press and the NYT - Saudi Arabia ranks very high.
But the NYT has been utterly useless until very recently on the immensity that it the horrific vile state of Saudi Arabia. The decapitation regime par excellence. Even Assad, the Syrian butcher, assaults us with the Saudi spectacle of sword decapitations. The NYT largely absent on this even when this murdering was for non-violent crimes. Women from the Philippines raped and who retaliated against the rapist beheaded. Nothing or not much in the NYT.
Millions, it's not millions, some respectable estimates, it's 40 BILLION over the past 30 years exporting fanatic Islam.
Many options for the most immense failures of the US press and the NYT - Saudi Arabia ranks very high.
5
It is hypocritical to excuse deliberate efforts by Saudi Arabia to foster fanaticism in Kosovo on the grounds that Kosovo sought help, including from Saudi Arabia, in being freed from oppression under Serbia and the fanatical intolerance of Milosevic.
It is also hypocritical to deny and rationalize deliberate efforts of Netanyahu to foster fanaticism in Israel and bolster oppression of occupied Palestinian lands, on the grounds that Israel is some kind of never to be questioned bulwark against dangerous Jihadist extremism from Saudi Arabia.
It is also hypocritical to deny and rationalize deliberate efforts of Netanyahu to foster fanaticism in Israel and bolster oppression of occupied Palestinian lands, on the grounds that Israel is some kind of never to be questioned bulwark against dangerous Jihadist extremism from Saudi Arabia.
8
So why isn't Saudi Arabia condemned in the United Nations? Where as, Israel is now blamed for air pollution? How come you paper people don't draw attention to the unfitness of the United Nations to act?
1
The rest of the world should band together and impose sanctions against every country which promotes Wahhabism, especially Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates. As a start, the sanctions should be similar to the ones currently in place against North Korea.
5/28 @ 5:34 am
5/28 @ 5:34 am
11
The only solution to Wahhabism is to quarantine the sources of Wahhabism.
Wahhabism is a political plague wrapped in religion. Or it's a religious plague wrapped in politics. It really doesn't matter.
What does matter is that Wahhabism is a value system that is antithetical to secular liberal civilization. Worse, it is being promoted by its sponsors as a means to impose its will upon non believers who are most of the world's population.
Quarantine the source. Eradicate the carriers. Deport Wahhabist clerics and imans.
Or live with the consequences.
Wahhabism is a political plague wrapped in religion. Or it's a religious plague wrapped in politics. It really doesn't matter.
What does matter is that Wahhabism is a value system that is antithetical to secular liberal civilization. Worse, it is being promoted by its sponsors as a means to impose its will upon non believers who are most of the world's population.
Quarantine the source. Eradicate the carriers. Deport Wahhabist clerics and imans.
Or live with the consequences.
11
So now we hear what has been known all along - it was Saudis who carried out 9/11. Yet the very people who knew and the media have led the world on a catastrophic dance and spread fear and hatred. We need to look in the mirror and also ask why did 9/11 happen. Why do those who carried out 9/11 hate America so much? Go on - I dare you.
1
Because we are infidels, which is why islam has always been at perpetual war with the dar al-harb, "the abode of war", that is the non-islamic world.
In the words of Steve Earle, "just another poor man off to fight a rich man's war".
1
Over the past few years, there have been a number of articles addressing the radicalization of the Muslim world by the Saudis. While we slowly awaken to the problem, barbaric beliefs, incompatible with modern western democracies, continue to be spread in Wahhabi schools, mosques and media outlets throughout the world. There is an urgent need for us to pivot from knowing to doing; to do more than condemn the Saudi funded spread of salafism. The western world must actively work with the many like-minded Mulsims to support, strengthen, and spread the liberal and tolerant versions of Islam that have been replaced by Wahhabism.
2
Now you know it, Saudis and their beliefs, which are the beliefs of many Muslims these days, are the true inspiration behind terrorism and radicalism. What your answer will be?
- Are you ready to put sanctions on Saudia as you did on Iran? After all both posses high threat, I personally believe Saudia is much bigger threat.
- Are you ready to come out directly and say that the problem isn't in a couple of maniacs but actually in the scripture and its interpretation?
- Are you ready to stop being naive and treat everyone, no matter what are his beliefs and where is his heart, the same as you treat those who believe in freedom and liberal thinking? You don't need to test, see what's happening in Germany to get the result of naivety.
You know the answer to these questions, you will do nothing.
The question, and this is for myself not you, how can I replace those cowards and impotent with those who can answer these questions? I don't know for now, but I will keep working till I find the answer
- Are you ready to put sanctions on Saudia as you did on Iran? After all both posses high threat, I personally believe Saudia is much bigger threat.
- Are you ready to come out directly and say that the problem isn't in a couple of maniacs but actually in the scripture and its interpretation?
- Are you ready to stop being naive and treat everyone, no matter what are his beliefs and where is his heart, the same as you treat those who believe in freedom and liberal thinking? You don't need to test, see what's happening in Germany to get the result of naivety.
You know the answer to these questions, you will do nothing.
The question, and this is for myself not you, how can I replace those cowards and impotent with those who can answer these questions? I don't know for now, but I will keep working till I find the answer
2
Thanks for this editorial. Stay safe.
2
If the editorial board cares so much why is this not on the front page where so much opinion is. While back here in op-ed is where they hide news.
1
And the U.S. Bears no responsibility for the miseries described here?
3
america should have sanction Saudi Arabia after 9/11 but of course Bush was an oil man. Now we don't need their oil and we don't need their extremism. Time to sanction them.
6
If Muslim nations like Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan etc. do not practice mainstream Islam, then who does? Does anyone know Mohamed and Koran and Islamic theology better than Saudis or Iranians or Pakistanis? It is the mainstream Islam. If not, then where is it?
4
America has achieved energy independence from fracking, wind and solar power.
Energy independence cuts the dependency to the middle east. Radical islam comes from the imans that Saudia Arabia has trained and sent throughout the world replacing moderate Sunnis imans and threatening Sufism and any less repressive forms of Islam.
Islam is not evil, but Wahhabism clearly is evil.
Energy independence cuts the dependency to the middle east. Radical islam comes from the imans that Saudia Arabia has trained and sent throughout the world replacing moderate Sunnis imans and threatening Sufism and any less repressive forms of Islam.
Islam is not evil, but Wahhabism clearly is evil.
3
I am surprised it took so long for a major establishment or media voice to say what has been the glaring fact for many years. The radical islam we see is a direct result of the Saudi and other sunni non-democratic states to fund a strict and intolerant Isalmic teachings around the world led by very radical clerics.
8
The best way to undermine Saudi power and influence is a vigorous and concerted movement away from hydrocarbon energy. If we were to put billions of dollars into R&D for photovoltaic, hydrogen fuel cell, and battery technology, the Saudis would soon be scrambling to survive and would have no money to bankroll terrorists. Why wait 50 years for the oil supplies to run out (and sea levels to rise)? Let's do it now. It would have the added advantage of mitigating the climate changes that will be disrupting the world for our grandchildren.
4
Saudi oil is some of the easiest to produce anywhere on the planet. Do you think the remaining carbon budget should come from the tar sands in Alberta or Venezuela?
Regardless of political party, we love their oil and the monetary benefits. And we want it for ourselves not our enemies. Greed is poured out as blood from people of countries, faiths and practices that offend the Saudis
1
It really is a farce to see the legitimacy of a government rest on the blessings of clerics of an essentially anti-clerical religion,.
So, will Donald Trump break ties with Saudi Arabia and its Middle-East underlings? He has promised to make the US "totally" energy independent, after all. If that be the case, of what need are we in supporting a regime no less brutal than North Korea? The fact that the richest North Korean farmer or factory worker makes a church mouse seem wealthy indeed, and the poorest Saudi average citizen makes a middle-class American look like the church mouse does not change the fact that both are sorely oppressed, with the presence or absence of religion being the main component of that oppression. As for Kosovo itself, Trump would probably have no idea that it is a country, not a Japanese-built sedan, were it not for his third wife.
But the Arabian Gulf is strategically crucially important, for now. At least, that is the official reason for continued American involvement, since Saudi oil is, in fact, no longer the lifeblood of American commerce and way of life. Trump's isolationism in conjunction with his courting of fundamentalist American Christians will not change reality and, if brought into being, will only serve to turn the US into a stronger version of North Korea or Saudi Arabia.
"Religion ruins everything." - Christopher Hitchens.
But the Arabian Gulf is strategically crucially important, for now. At least, that is the official reason for continued American involvement, since Saudi oil is, in fact, no longer the lifeblood of American commerce and way of life. Trump's isolationism in conjunction with his courting of fundamentalist American Christians will not change reality and, if brought into being, will only serve to turn the US into a stronger version of North Korea or Saudi Arabia.
"Religion ruins everything." - Christopher Hitchens.
2
So does nationalism. Or any form of 'I'm different from you - and better.'
L&B&L
L&B&L
Why do the Saudi royals spend billions to support radicals abroad? Remember the phrase George W Bush used to sell the war in Iraq...let's fight them over there so we don't have to fight them at home. The Saudis lavishly fund the radicals abroad, leading to murder and mayhem, so the radicals will leave the royals unmolested at home. Think the largest protection racket in history. The Saudi royals provide the funds to drive terrorism abroad, America needs oil and provides the arms to keep the oil flowing and our "friends" in power. As Trump would say, "I'm a businessman. What would you expect me to do?"
65
I hasten to remind you that the US government back in the Clinton days was well aware of Saudi's intentions and practice in Bosnia but turned a blind eye. Al Qaida was born out of Saudi Arabia as was ISIS, again well known by Clinton, Bush and Obama administrations. Unfortunately Obama didn't take advantage of the shale revolution in the US which would have bludgeoned the Gulf's hold on the economy of the world by imposing sanctions on the puppet regimes. We reap what we sow, not the Saudis.
16
Let's not forget that Hillary's campaign for presidency is run by Huma Abedin, with strong ties to Saudis. Hillary's campaign is being financed by the Wahabi Saudis and will be an extension of Cheney/Bush administration.
1
So let's bludgeoned "this land is my land from sea to shining sea"? NOT! Invest more in renewable. If we would of listen to Jimmy Carter's energy speech of 1979 and promised energy independence by 2000, just think where we would be. If we would not of taken solar off the White House roof. If the people would not of elected Ronald Reagan and the gang of neoliberals who have been raping the pillaging the tax payers coffers and great assets.
Just think if development would of created an energy new revolution age of renewables instead of following the high profits of greed and power.
Just think if development would of created an energy new revolution age of renewables instead of following the high profits of greed and power.
Remind me again how Pres. Obama is responsible for the collapse in world-wide oil prices that has led to a decline in shale-oil production in the past year due to its higher cost and rapid decline of well-head production?
Whoops, everyone's forgetting to blame Israel, again.
2
Don't worry Max, somebody will - just you wait.
L&B&L
L&B&L
More details on the organizations (their financial details/management etc) working as NGOs/charities and spreading extremist views would be useful.
There could be a chance of NYT being sued for libel, but that is the price for good and thorough journalism.
There could be a chance of NYT being sued for libel, but that is the price for good and thorough journalism.
3
"The search is underway for those who are behind these evil acts. I've directed the full resources of our intelligence and law enforcement communities to find those responsible and to bring them to justice. We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them."
George W. Bush, 9/11/01
It sounds like we know exactly who is responsible for the religious extremist terrorists around the world.
Saudi Arabia.
George W. Bush, 9/11/01
It sounds like we know exactly who is responsible for the religious extremist terrorists around the world.
Saudi Arabia.
8
Probably no nation better exemplifies the nest of vipers that is the Middle East than Saudi Arabia. Trying to keep track of its government's wheelings, dealings, double and triple crosses over the decades is enough to make one's head spin.
4
Fossil fuels - a clear an present danger to the planetary environment and an outrageously massive source of money to leverage the power of barbaric medieval (mid-Evil) cultural leaders to wreak havoc around the world.
Saving the planet from environmental destruction is one way to throw the Saudi regime back into the backward world they came from - without the resources we give them now to endanger the rest of us.
Saving the planet from environmental destruction is one way to throw the Saudi regime back into the backward world they came from - without the resources we give them now to endanger the rest of us.
3
Oh yes, Saudi Arabia. Our Allies & partners in peace.
4
"The Sunni Arab states still do not seem to understand the extent to which extreme versions of Islam imperil them as well." Did the author mean to say the US still does not understand? Many in the Sunni Arab world have been warning the US for quite some time about the dangers of supporting Saudi Arabia without question.
2
While the GOP and others have been screaming about Iran, the Saudis have been the largest exporters of Islamic radicalism and terror for decades. Want to put an end to it? Stop by oil from the Saudis and the other Gulf states. Ban travel by Wahabbi muslims to the West. Close mosques sponsored by the Gulf States. And above all, stop all western aid and arms sales to the Saudi government.
Let them reap what they have sown.
Let them reap what they have sown.
7
Can someone explain again why the US helped create an Islamic state in the central Europe?
4
"What do we have all this military power for?" asked Madeleine Albright.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright
Have gun, will travel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright
Have gun, will travel.
Not to worry. When the oil runs out, they'll go back to herding camels and eating dates.
3
“The Americans may have erred in assuming …”
This could be a refrain for American Middle East policy in recent decades.
… that bombing Iraq would bring good results"
… that bombing Libya would bring good results"
… that bombing Gaza would bring good results"
… that fomenting Civil War in Syria would bring good results"
… that fomenting Civil War in Ukraine would bring good results"
Add your own for destabilization of South America and the return to the Shock Doctrine.
There is a saying “to err is human to forgive divine” but egregious error on this scale begins to look like deliberate policy.
This could be a refrain for American Middle East policy in recent decades.
… that bombing Iraq would bring good results"
… that bombing Libya would bring good results"
… that bombing Gaza would bring good results"
… that fomenting Civil War in Syria would bring good results"
… that fomenting Civil War in Ukraine would bring good results"
Add your own for destabilization of South America and the return to the Shock Doctrine.
There is a saying “to err is human to forgive divine” but egregious error on this scale begins to look like deliberate policy.
6
Pigs do fly. The NY Times editors who spend every second since 9/11 ignoring the role of Saudi Arabia has finally acknowledged it. After 9/11, I expected the Times to publish a series of articles on the Saudi's support of terrorism and radicalism There was one article on Saudi education and textbooks and then silence. I can only speculate about why the Times went aborted its coverage of Saudi Arabia.
It should be clarified t hat all the terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia have targeted its Shia population so the terrorist supporting corrupt House of Saudi does not care.
It should be clarified t hat all the terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia have targeted its Shia population so the terrorist supporting corrupt House of Saudi does not care.
8
There are several lessons here that we have yet to learn. Saudi Arabia is not deserving of ally status. They are something considerably less than an ally, even though they have a strategic importance. Fundamental Islam is a violent political system the masquerades as a religion and does not deserve the protections Western society typically accords to religious beliefs. Left unchecked, fundamental Islam will infect far more than Kosovo, Belgium, and France. It will destroy Europe which Islam has coveted for at least a thousand years. The victories in Spain in the late 1400s and in Vienna in the 1600s were just setbacks to Islam, not definitive solutions to Islamic aggression.
4
and where does the Saudi money come from? For a century the US has been the world's largest oil consumer, propping up the Saudi economy. WE have been paying for extremism.
3
Correct, Paul, and many Americans profit from this expensive propping up of the Saudis..the people who actually own and operate our country profit from keeping the relationship with the Saudis as it is now.
1
The Saudi version of extreme Sunni Islam, Wahhabi, would horrify the Prophet. Hate and power rather than love and charity define the Wahhabi. In both my military and civilian careers, I watched Saudi money fund ‘schools’ and mosques with the express mission of spreading hate. Pakistan was seen as an ideal breeding ground to spread this poison (yes, correct word). Indeed, wherever there is poverty and ignorance, the Saudi funded Wahhabi preacher will be found spreading and sowing disunity.
Where does the money come to fund Al Qaeda, ISIL, and Salafism? The path almost always leads to Saudi. From Egypt through Syria, the Gulf States and Yemen, Saudi dollars and, now even military, attempt to arm the many ignorant youth to fight wars for Saudi interests. Now, as the Saudi alliance with Israel becomes increasingly clear, Saudi maintains a staggering hypocrisy cloaked in a pseudo religion pretending to be Islam.
Where does the money come to fund Al Qaeda, ISIL, and Salafism? The path almost always leads to Saudi. From Egypt through Syria, the Gulf States and Yemen, Saudi dollars and, now even military, attempt to arm the many ignorant youth to fight wars for Saudi interests. Now, as the Saudi alliance with Israel becomes increasingly clear, Saudi maintains a staggering hypocrisy cloaked in a pseudo religion pretending to be Islam.
3
While the editorial is very thorough, it leaves out a salient point: The Saudis are actually paying effectively extortion money to the radicals NOT to mount terrorist attacks against Saudi Arabia. Obviously not all the radical islamists got the memo, but most did and Al Qaeda did.
There's a reason that the Saudis, as purveyors of the most conservative version of Sunni Islam are blood-sworn enemies of the Iranians, the heart of Shi'ia Islam. The Israelis and the USA have tolerated Saudi Arabia's funding of all sorts of extremists that violently attack both nations, yet both condemn Iran whose participation in similar actions is far more limited. It's not so much that we (and Israel) have picked the wrong side, it's that we fail to recognize that there is NO "right" side.
At least the Iranians are honest about not liking us. The Saudis pretend to be our allies while funding our worst enemies.
There's a reason that the Saudis, as purveyors of the most conservative version of Sunni Islam are blood-sworn enemies of the Iranians, the heart of Shi'ia Islam. The Israelis and the USA have tolerated Saudi Arabia's funding of all sorts of extremists that violently attack both nations, yet both condemn Iran whose participation in similar actions is far more limited. It's not so much that we (and Israel) have picked the wrong side, it's that we fail to recognize that there is NO "right" side.
At least the Iranians are honest about not liking us. The Saudis pretend to be our allies while funding our worst enemies.
9
"The Sunni Arab states still do not seem to understand the extent to which extreme versions of Islam imperil them as well."
Actually this is a not unusual deal in which the religious elite makes a deal with the political elite: in exchange for their support they are allowed to impose religious rules that normally wouldn't be accepted. In the Middle Ages this was a very common deal and even today we can see similar deals in Israel and Iran. What is unusual is the amount of money and power that has been given to those religious leaders to make trouble in other countries.
In fact the risks for the Saudi leaders are much less than the article claims: some misleaded fools may make trouble but the religious leadership knows very well that they are unlikely to get a better deal when the Saudi government is overthrown.
Note also that this deal is very similar to the one the US made with the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan. In that case there was indeed blowback but we have yet to see one of the architects of that deal to utter his regrets.
Actually this is a not unusual deal in which the religious elite makes a deal with the political elite: in exchange for their support they are allowed to impose religious rules that normally wouldn't be accepted. In the Middle Ages this was a very common deal and even today we can see similar deals in Israel and Iran. What is unusual is the amount of money and power that has been given to those religious leaders to make trouble in other countries.
In fact the risks for the Saudi leaders are much less than the article claims: some misleaded fools may make trouble but the religious leadership knows very well that they are unlikely to get a better deal when the Saudi government is overthrown.
Note also that this deal is very similar to the one the US made with the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan. In that case there was indeed blowback but we have yet to see one of the architects of that deal to utter his regrets.
2
I keep wondering why we allied ourselves with Saudi Arabia instead of Iran.
6
Our relationship with the Saudis is as dirty as an oil spill. It was the building of a U.S. military base in Saudi Arabia that inflamed religious extremists in that country to seek revenge against us. Al-Qaeda was the result.
Now, we are arming the Saudi government to the teeth. In return, they contribute to the Clinton Foundation.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/hillary-clinton-foundation-s...
Now, we are arming the Saudi government to the teeth. In return, they contribute to the Clinton Foundation.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/hillary-clinton-foundation-s...
3
Looks like a job for Generalissimo Trump. A greedy, ignorant businessman and master con-artist will soon will make the Saudis come to Jesus or he’ll nuke a few oil wells to get their attention. The result will be yuge, marvelous.
Some say our relations with the Saudis and the present reckless ultra right government of Israel can’t be worse; they can. As Captain Combover had promised when elected he cancels the deal President Obama made with Iran. In 2 years Iran has nuclear weapons or were are fighting a ground war with Iran with a likely nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel.
War Chief Trump will blame the whole thing on a secret deal between the Saudi King and HRC for a job for Bill which, which Chief Trump discovered on the Drudge Report, quoting as authority the Supermarket Enquirer. in an article about a 3 headed cow falling down an elevator shaft.
What a bad dream. The election is 5 months away. Okay, HRC is damaged goods, Crazy Trump is poison. The GOP is not entitled to a conservative Supreme Court in perpetuity. The rich are not an entitled ruling class. The environment does not belong to corporations. The GOP does not believe in the rule of law and it’s party over country every time. There are 100s of good reasons to vote for HRC and they all are the Supreme Court, and what a conservative court will do to our lives as they amend our Constitution.
Some say our relations with the Saudis and the present reckless ultra right government of Israel can’t be worse; they can. As Captain Combover had promised when elected he cancels the deal President Obama made with Iran. In 2 years Iran has nuclear weapons or were are fighting a ground war with Iran with a likely nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel.
War Chief Trump will blame the whole thing on a secret deal between the Saudi King and HRC for a job for Bill which, which Chief Trump discovered on the Drudge Report, quoting as authority the Supermarket Enquirer. in an article about a 3 headed cow falling down an elevator shaft.
What a bad dream. The election is 5 months away. Okay, HRC is damaged goods, Crazy Trump is poison. The GOP is not entitled to a conservative Supreme Court in perpetuity. The rich are not an entitled ruling class. The environment does not belong to corporations. The GOP does not believe in the rule of law and it’s party over country every time. There are 100s of good reasons to vote for HRC and they all are the Supreme Court, and what a conservative court will do to our lives as they amend our Constitution.
4
After 9/11, it would have been much more effective to invade Saudi Arabia, take their oil and shut down the funding for other extremists. Problem solved
5
Wahhabism and takfirism are two different interpretations of Islam. Under takfirism even the Saudi King would be considered a heretic. I disagree with the author using these term synonymously. The Saudi government promotes Wahhabism but to promote takfirism would be suicide for the kingdom no pun intended.
1
It is time for the US to develop a strategy to let the Saudi royal family to return to the nomadic tent dwelling tribesmen they were but for recent history. The Saudi's clearly do not merit US protection and support any more than North Korea as they poison they spread is just as evil. The US energy policy can deal with a Saudi Arabia that goes dark until some responsible party is in charge which is clearly not the current tribe.
3
Our relationships with Saudi Arabia, as in totalitarian regimes in Southeast Asia, are built on oil. As another reader pointed out, our international "relationships" are all about promoting American business interests. Commerce, it is believed, is the instrument by which we reduce military tensions.
Yet in the course of building relationships with the likes of the Saudi government, the money that is generated does not benefit the people overall. The money filters upward to the ruling families. They build grandiose skyscrapers, resorts and palaces to mask the regime's cruelty.
Does anyone recall the outcry, during the Bush43 years, when it was proposed that the United States sell the operations of the Port of Houston to the Saudis?
Make no mistake, then-veep, Dick Cheney, a devoted oil man, had a hand in that concept.
Someday, forensic accounting experts will peruse the accounts of Dick Cheney to "follow the money" (to borrow a phrase from the Watergate investigation). No one will be surprised when billions of dollars are found in offshore accounts, mostly gained from Halliburton /KBR income during the invasions of Iraq.
No-bid contracts to Cheney's former employer (Halliburton) to privatize war operations were common.
Our relationships with the Saudis can be traced back to the earliest partnerships between the Bush and Walker families following WW1. Investing in oil and military defense became the basis for their sudden and lasting wealth.
And do it goes.
Yet in the course of building relationships with the likes of the Saudi government, the money that is generated does not benefit the people overall. The money filters upward to the ruling families. They build grandiose skyscrapers, resorts and palaces to mask the regime's cruelty.
Does anyone recall the outcry, during the Bush43 years, when it was proposed that the United States sell the operations of the Port of Houston to the Saudis?
Make no mistake, then-veep, Dick Cheney, a devoted oil man, had a hand in that concept.
Someday, forensic accounting experts will peruse the accounts of Dick Cheney to "follow the money" (to borrow a phrase from the Watergate investigation). No one will be surprised when billions of dollars are found in offshore accounts, mostly gained from Halliburton /KBR income during the invasions of Iraq.
No-bid contracts to Cheney's former employer (Halliburton) to privatize war operations were common.
Our relationships with the Saudis can be traced back to the earliest partnerships between the Bush and Walker families following WW1. Investing in oil and military defense became the basis for their sudden and lasting wealth.
And do it goes.
7
We invaded the wrong countries after 9/11.
5
Oh, OK... So Islam *does* have something to do with it. Thanks for finally, unwittingly admitting it.
4
No, only one particular branch of Islam. Re-read the essay. Re-read your history.
Not only Kosovo, but the whole Western Balkans (Bosnia, Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro - all EU aspirants) is being targeted by Radical-Islamic-end goal money. The traditional Muslim communities in the region - which happen to be the most underdeveloped ones - have been used for easy brain-wash of the most vulnerable ones. Since the end of Balkans wars of early '90s all US governments and EU capitals have missed completely the point by thinking that stability and security is made of only of getting Kalashnikovs out of streets. Economic and social development associated with proper western Europe based education and values should have been at top of the list of western efforts. And by hypocrisy, it’s only after the Russia’s aggression against Ukraine that the EU capitals and Washington understood the alarm bell of instability and started paying more attention, including strategic investments (energy) and hunting down Radical Islamic networks in the region. NYT is right of blaming local corrupted leaders, unfortunately still beloved by Washington and Brussels for the sake of inter-ethnic stability. But flirting with them for that kind of stability now proves to have produced an even dangerous threat, Islamic Radicalism. Mistakes are continuing, however. The new Sultan of Turkey, Erdogan is spreading his way of Fanatic Islam through businesses and political influence in the region. And yet, this is happening in front of the US and EU eyes. Strange, isn’t it ?
62
The Saudis are arrogant, evil, bold faced hypocrites. I first came into contact with them my work at the Waldorf in NYC, where because I was a mere behind the scenes peon they took no notice of me and talked and acted in ways that gave me a chance to observe them as they really were: they drank alcohol, had young girls brought to their suites, did drugs, watched porn and did all manner of things completely contrary to their religious posturing, all the while keeping their wives in separate suites. It was a real eye opener for me. That they support terrorism for their own benefit does not surprise me. That being said I've always thought that we invaded the wrong country after 9/11, it should been Saudi Arabia.
10
Well, let me give you a quick glimpse in what it's going on. Government has nothing to do with this, there are a relatively small proportion Muslims around the world who are not understand Islam as a religion presumably in the past, so our stupid religious group went there to teach wahhabism which is not pure Islam religion unfortunately, Islam is peaceful religion. You can look into the world and see others religion activities. For instance, Christianity religious group always go to poor countries and somewhere else to spread religion as much as they can as they are trying to exploits poverty conditions and ignorance existed among those people, I have heard about KKK group and who extreme they are, so at this point we don't only have Islam extreme group. and also take this one for example, Jews who used a religion as a big reason to invade Palestine before years, exploited Palestine condition at that time, less power, uneducated and unarmed country.
The roots of all our hypocrisy and duplicity. We all suck up to power and money. How do we move forward without war and unnecessary violence?
1
The Saudi government has done this sort of thing for years; you have a small group of people who plunder the countries resources to satisfy their endless greed, while poverty, near-poverty and illiteracy plague the citizenry. The relationship between the government and the clergy is co-dependent; the government allows this thoroughly wacky Wahhabi brand of Islam to flourish because the clergy directs their flock's angers and resentments towards imagined external religious enemies, thus making any sort of revolution in Saudi Arabia less likely. It'll be a long time before they reform themselves, if ever.
57
Kosovo is not unique. Saudi Arabia has funded and is continuing to fund the radical madrassas in Pakistan. The scholars at these religious Pakistan schools are the orphans, and the abandoned street urchins in slum areas whose benefactors are rich Saudi Arabian philanthropists(?). Starving school children are radicalized so they can eat.
The Republican Party sat with a full view as the Bush Family coddled the Royal Saudi Vision and messaged the shoulders of the Oil they sorely wanted to benefit from.
We made the biggest most egregious diplomatic errors in the history of diplomacy.
We made the biggest most egregious diplomatic errors in the history of diplomacy.
5
I have a hard time crediting the nyt for Finally getting around to adressing the evil core of Saudi Arabia directly and openly. For years people have vilified Iran and ignored Saudi Arabia.
Guess which country has a long history of art, music, science, and yes, democracy? Guess which one has zero history of any of that, and produced almost all Islamic terrorism?
Iran is a flawed country, Saudi Arabia is actively evil.
Guess which country has a long history of art, music, science, and yes, democracy? Guess which one has zero history of any of that, and produced almost all Islamic terrorism?
Iran is a flawed country, Saudi Arabia is actively evil.
9
"For centuries, the Muslim majority has followed the liberal Hanafi version of Islam, which is accepting of others."
Are you sure Hanafi islam is liberal? According to wikipedia:"The Hanafi school was founded by Abu Hanifa an-Nu‘man. It is followed by Muslims in the Levant, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Western Lower Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, the Balkans and by most of Russia's Muslim community. There are movements within this school such as Barelvis and Deobandi. They are concentrated in South Asia and in most parts of India." For your information Deobandi, which is within the hanafi islam, is Talibans' Islam.
Truth is Hanafi Islam and liberal can not stay in the same sentence.
Are you sure Hanafi islam is liberal? According to wikipedia:"The Hanafi school was founded by Abu Hanifa an-Nu‘man. It is followed by Muslims in the Levant, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Western Lower Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, the Balkans and by most of Russia's Muslim community. There are movements within this school such as Barelvis and Deobandi. They are concentrated in South Asia and in most parts of India." For your information Deobandi, which is within the hanafi islam, is Talibans' Islam.
Truth is Hanafi Islam and liberal can not stay in the same sentence.
And hence: the reason a "Muslim ban" resounds so much for so many.
1
Maybe ,just Maybe NATO spearheaded by Bill Clinton was to quick on the draw in the Balkans. Did the Serbs know something we didn't ? Sure seems like it. What a buffer/deterrent to radical Islam....The mighty Serbs.......
Why didn't we act sooner to stem the extremism of one Islami sect in Kosovo? No excess of critical thought is necessary to answer that!
1
The Saud family has made a corrupt bargain with the Wahhabist clerics in order to retain power. The US made a corrupt bargain with the Saudi's in order to ensure the flow of Saudi oil. But now, with our need for oil reduced, that latter bargain has more to do with maintaining Saudi power in the Persian Gulf that can stand up to Iran. Our Iranian enemy is also the Saudi's enemy. Therefore, for now, the Saudi's are our friend, but only because its support of Wahhabist terrorists is less a threat to our interests in the Middle East than are Iran's multifaceted threats. If we failed to support the Saudi government than Iran would supplant it as the major power in the region. If the Saud family failed to support the Wahhabist clerics, then the Saudi people, at the urging of the clerics, could revolt leaving either an oppressive Wahhabist government or utter anarchy. Foreign policy makes for very difficult decisions and very uncomfortable bedfellows.
2
I would gladly pay extra for fuel not purchased from the Saudis. My feeling after 9/11 was that we should have cut them off then and there and told them to fix it.
3
A most important article, depicting the two-faced Saudis, among others, in inciting violence by preaching, or allowing its clerics to proceed, radical Islam. Jihadism is the result, an extremist fundamentalist group of thugs with a religious dogma impossible to reason with. The indiscriminate killing, including Muslims that do not believe in violent Islam, all in the name of a 'loving' God, is such a barbaric concept, only able to be understood when individuals become entirely divorced from the only reality we know, life on Earth. For people that are oblivious to reason and logic, who lost any feelings for their fellow human beings, ready to annihilate others by violent means, deserve to be destroyed as well; this, in strict justice. Anybody allowing, or worse, encouraging violent religious dogma to proceed, is not, can not, be a friend of any civilized nation. Saudis beware, you are playing with fire, allowing wahhabism to flourish so your medieval means of control can be justified. And worse, exporting radical Islam, akin to throwing stones and then hiding that hand. Hypocrisy for all to see; looking the other way won't cut it anymore.
2
Jihad is in the mind. Every other kind of war is a bloody exercise in futility.
Maybe Bush should have invaded Saudia Arabia, instead of Iraq? (Obviously no oil man could ever think of doing that.)
Our relationship with Saudi Arabia shows the complexity of important foreign relationships. Better to have it as a bad friend than to see it become best friends with Russia or China.
And sadly, as long as we remain dependent on oil and gas, we will remain subject to the whims of those, like Saudia Arabia, with the means to affect the market. (Trump's naive idea that energy independence means sourcing oil and gas only from the US is as laughable as his other incoherent solution unless he wants to nationalize our oil and gas industry.)
And even if we were to become no longer dependent on oil and gas, as long as the rest of the world remains dependent on oil and gas, we will be affected by the rise and fall of oil prices.
We need to recognize the limits and extent of our foreign friendships and use our leverage wisely.
Our relationship with Saudi Arabia shows the complexity of important foreign relationships. Better to have it as a bad friend than to see it become best friends with Russia or China.
And sadly, as long as we remain dependent on oil and gas, we will remain subject to the whims of those, like Saudia Arabia, with the means to affect the market. (Trump's naive idea that energy independence means sourcing oil and gas only from the US is as laughable as his other incoherent solution unless he wants to nationalize our oil and gas industry.)
And even if we were to become no longer dependent on oil and gas, as long as the rest of the world remains dependent on oil and gas, we will be affected by the rise and fall of oil prices.
We need to recognize the limits and extent of our foreign friendships and use our leverage wisely.
1
Economic interests far outweigh common sense. Add to that the fact that many of our congressmen are bought and paid for by a number of self seeking interests and the only logical conclusion is more of the same. This country should go to a six year term of office-and then- Go Get A Job! Career politicians mean career corruption, by the Saudis, by the banks, by any group with the money to influence their careers. This cannot be what the founding fathers envisaged.
1
So it safe to assume that the Saudi wii pull the same trick in Europe, when the Saudi don't want to take in any refugees from the middle east, but will send money to help build the mosque for them to attend. When will the world walk up to the fact that the Saudi are the most evil people in the work and we need to stop buying their oil and stop sending them weapon or any aid. Let's hope out govt will not be stupid enough to risk our soldiers to save this evil country and its leader when they are over run by the very groups they funded and created.
2
But it was acceptable for Britain to send its missionaries to South Asia during its Raj in the 19th century, while London was busy milking all the money out of that part of the world. And our own preachy people ventured to convert the heathen Chinee as they were once called in a non-politically correct era, while our businessmen were busily opening cracks in the Chinese mercantile wall. Western people need to remember that we sound quite hypocritical indeed to criticize the Islamic fundamentalists for their proselytising while we endure many millions of fervent evangelical folks in our own midst, intent on being raptured into Heaven.
3
The title of this page should actually be "the world reaps what America sows". Saudia Arabia wouldn't have been able to do any of this without America's support.
118
and don't forget the Bush family going back more than 50 years close ties with these thiefs and religious zealots.
Meg, while it's true that the Saudi's depend on our misguided support it not just us. Britain has a long history of involvement with the Kingdom and the west in general has relied on supply and price stabilization that the Saudi's supply. For our part it's also our lucrative arm's deals that Saudi oil rich's have allowed and now are being used to kill civilians in Yemen. But it must be noted that another form of "American exceptionalism" is that it's all our fault. That's just as misguided as the opposite that all good things are to our credit. Good and bad have a complex relationship and so does human society. So no it's not "the world reaps what America sows" and that is becoming even more so now as centers of power shift around the world.
1
The broader problem for the U.S. is that we have sided with the Sunni leader of a religious war with Shiites (led by Iran). This religious war is spearheaded by fanatics on both sides that will brook no compromise. No good can come to the U.S. from this. But, we allow our military-industrial complex to keep selling weapons and fanning flames of war.
5
Saudi Arabia still has the largest most productive deposits, and as long as the West and the entire World depends on oil to move their economies, even when not buying directly from them, we still depend on what they do...in other words, we are at their mercy, as shown when they kept production up flooding world markets and resulting in thousands and thousands of jobs being momentarily cut.
Venezuela has immense oil wealth under ground, and it tried to pretend it could survive any catastrophe, enrich its population, etc. Despite that, their economy is in shambles and their oil richness was not the panacea they believed.
No single nation , except for Saudi Arabia ( the bully), can control the price of this commodity by itself.
Many in the US foolishly think ( the worst example now is Mr. Trump) that we can achieve energy independence by finding and extracting more fossil fuels from US soil and Canada. The US does not have the storage or refining capacity to process all this new oil so companies must sell it and most of it will go abroad. (we do have a Strategic Oil reserve for emergencies, but that has its limits). The environmental damage to the World is much more than the profits the Oil Giants want to make, and that is all they want, profits for their shareholders.
Religious considerations do not enter into the profit equations of multinational oil companies. They will go to bed with the devil to ensure their wealth and the rest of us can rot. We got what we wanted...
Venezuela has immense oil wealth under ground, and it tried to pretend it could survive any catastrophe, enrich its population, etc. Despite that, their economy is in shambles and their oil richness was not the panacea they believed.
No single nation , except for Saudi Arabia ( the bully), can control the price of this commodity by itself.
Many in the US foolishly think ( the worst example now is Mr. Trump) that we can achieve energy independence by finding and extracting more fossil fuels from US soil and Canada. The US does not have the storage or refining capacity to process all this new oil so companies must sell it and most of it will go abroad. (we do have a Strategic Oil reserve for emergencies, but that has its limits). The environmental damage to the World is much more than the profits the Oil Giants want to make, and that is all they want, profits for their shareholders.
Religious considerations do not enter into the profit equations of multinational oil companies. They will go to bed with the devil to ensure their wealth and the rest of us can rot. We got what we wanted...
88
Actually, the US is the no. 3 producer but apparently could be no. 1 producer of oil, etc. with little effort. (why does the Times persist in publishing the inaccurate. Listen to Wealthtrack occasionally-- might learn something..
World population was 2.3 billion post WWII . 9 billion projected for 2050.
Arguable what causes most environmental damage... fishing the seas to death, burning the amazon rain forest so we can have coffee ahd chocolate. Eating steak and hamburgers (cows and their methane)? (the Times editors certainly cause mental damage to the US citizens by publishing too much garbage and endorsing worse.)
Most complex questions have many sides.. but this editorial I supposed to be about war and terrorism not about the Duck so Editors -- fire a few already.. or change whatever is in the koolaid.
World population was 2.3 billion post WWII . 9 billion projected for 2050.
Arguable what causes most environmental damage... fishing the seas to death, burning the amazon rain forest so we can have coffee ahd chocolate. Eating steak and hamburgers (cows and their methane)? (the Times editors certainly cause mental damage to the US citizens by publishing too much garbage and endorsing worse.)
Most complex questions have many sides.. but this editorial I supposed to be about war and terrorism not about the Duck so Editors -- fire a few already.. or change whatever is in the koolaid.
And we continue to give our tax dollars to the Saudi's: our friends?
7
True believers are harvested from such sadly fertile soil. My memories of Kosovo while serving there July - September '99 (KFOR, Operation Joint Guardian) were largely positive--the benign form of Albanian Islam seemed a footnote to the larger issue of recovering from Serbia's maleficence. For Kosovo's youth to now answer the Saudi's siren call and leave those beautiful hills and fields for a martyr's grave is a colossal affront to humanity.
96
This is interesting. The Saudis are bad but the Kosovars who are believing the exact same extreme ideology are actually good because we invested heavily in ripping away a part of a sovereign nation, namely as one special commentator put it "maleficent Serbia"? Very intriguing logic by the always subjective, questionably cogent Editorial Board. How can the Kosovars be victims? According to this thinking, they are like children being led by a very petro-rich older.... cousin? Are Kosovars that innocent? Clearly something in this ideology is appealing to them even with extreme Western patronage. Once again you have not hit the nail on the head; perhaps it's not Saudi Arabia but the answer may lie in the same people the West "liberated" or rather aided in a very suspicious, unethical independence campaign.
1
We have to hit 'em where it hurts: We need US energy independence now. We have plenty of natural resources, technical know-how, hard working and skilled people, and a need for energy. We need an "all of the above" strategy including renewables as well as fossil fuels, fracking, and nuclear.
If you drive a car, then would you rather have your gasoline come from the US where it is drilled, acquired, and processed under US law and US regulations, or would you rather your gas come from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, or Russia? If you heat your home with natural gas, would you rather have this come from the US or from Iran or Russia? If you are concerned about fracking, do you really think that environmental regulations are stronger in Nigeria than they are in the US? We can do things better, safer, and cleaner than anyone else in the world and we won't be funding terrorism or despotism if we produce our energy here in the US.
Americans of all political persuasions can unite around American energy independence. It means more jobs, lower costs, less terrorism, and a better environment.
If you drive a car, then would you rather have your gasoline come from the US where it is drilled, acquired, and processed under US law and US regulations, or would you rather your gas come from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, or Russia? If you heat your home with natural gas, would you rather have this come from the US or from Iran or Russia? If you are concerned about fracking, do you really think that environmental regulations are stronger in Nigeria than they are in the US? We can do things better, safer, and cleaner than anyone else in the world and we won't be funding terrorism or despotism if we produce our energy here in the US.
Americans of all political persuasions can unite around American energy independence. It means more jobs, lower costs, less terrorism, and a better environment.
79
The simplest way to achieve this is to fund all military operations concerning terrorism with a tax on imported oil. If Saudi Arabia can become a nation that promotes peace, then we won't need the tax. If they continue along this path, then they will lose out on a huge global customer.
So, you still think the US is different from and better than everybody else? Think again, RG.
While I often disagree with the Founding Fathers, they did specify the separation of church and state, which is under relentless attack now. On 5.26.16 The Hill reported:
"Rep. Rick Allen, a Georgia freshman, launched the GOP's regular policy meeting in the Capitol basement by reading a Bible passage condemning homosexuality and suggesting that supporters of the LGBT provision, which passed the House the night before, were defying Christian tenets, attendees said.
Several Republicans walked out of the room in disgust."
We are living through a time of dense change. White men, western culture, the oil industry, the privilege of 'Man' over all other members and aspects of our planet and even the universe, the elevation of money above all other standards of - everything! These ideas are challenging - everything! Most of us are not in a position to affect any of these directly or immediately; yet most of us, given both the mainstream and alternate media availability and insistence, are constantly aware of the threats to the peace and safety of our worlds, the health of our bodies and minds, the continuity of our religious and cultural traditions - all the time.
These things are happening everywhere on Earth. Sigmund Freud said "civilization is built up on the suppression of instincts. We have the power of thought, a much later development than instinct. Let's to use it.
L&B&L
While I often disagree with the Founding Fathers, they did specify the separation of church and state, which is under relentless attack now. On 5.26.16 The Hill reported:
"Rep. Rick Allen, a Georgia freshman, launched the GOP's regular policy meeting in the Capitol basement by reading a Bible passage condemning homosexuality and suggesting that supporters of the LGBT provision, which passed the House the night before, were defying Christian tenets, attendees said.
Several Republicans walked out of the room in disgust."
We are living through a time of dense change. White men, western culture, the oil industry, the privilege of 'Man' over all other members and aspects of our planet and even the universe, the elevation of money above all other standards of - everything! These ideas are challenging - everything! Most of us are not in a position to affect any of these directly or immediately; yet most of us, given both the mainstream and alternate media availability and insistence, are constantly aware of the threats to the peace and safety of our worlds, the health of our bodies and minds, the continuity of our religious and cultural traditions - all the time.
These things are happening everywhere on Earth. Sigmund Freud said "civilization is built up on the suppression of instincts. We have the power of thought, a much later development than instinct. Let's to use it.
L&B&L
@ RG - RG you are a Times Pick perhaps for writing about energy independence but you show signs of really meaning - mostly fossil fuel independence.
I am now in my 2d week in the US and I see no signs of the commitment to State and National programs for renewable on the scale that will be needed. I will now waste my time here repeating what I have written so many 100s of times but instead simply pose the question that very few Times commenters and repliers will answer. "What do you know about standard renewable technologies used on a national scale in northern Europe, and to what extent are they being used by you or by the state in which you reside?"
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
I am now in my 2d week in the US and I see no signs of the commitment to State and National programs for renewable on the scale that will be needed. I will now waste my time here repeating what I have written so many 100s of times but instead simply pose the question that very few Times commenters and repliers will answer. "What do you know about standard renewable technologies used on a national scale in northern Europe, and to what extent are they being used by you or by the state in which you reside?"
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
I'll say it: Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are the true enemies of Western culture, philosophy and democratic principles. They need to be treated as such. This fantasy that they are our allies in the war against radical Islam must end. How much more evidence is needed than this: bin Laden was a Saudi and we found him cowering in Pakistan near that country's version of West Point.
11
How many decades has it taken the NYTimes to print this info!
The Bushes and the Saudis were good friends so 9/11 got blamed on the Saudis.. and now we have a bigger mess thanks to all of them GW, and BHO and HRC then we had before....
Why is it so hard to follow the money?? and weapons and ignore the hot air. I would prefer we build a wall (a stupid diversion that created jobs) than that we continue to arm MANY in the Near East and elsewhere....
The Bushes and the Saudis were good friends so 9/11 got blamed on the Saudis.. and now we have a bigger mess thanks to all of them GW, and BHO and HRC then we had before....
Why is it so hard to follow the money?? and weapons and ignore the hot air. I would prefer we build a wall (a stupid diversion that created jobs) than that we continue to arm MANY in the Near East and elsewhere....
2
I guess this says it all, " the Saudi royal family relies on the Wahhabi clerics for their political legitimacy,"
11
Today's young people think my generation is stupid and blind for continuing to support the Saudis; much like we thought our parents generation was when it came to the Vietnam Nam War. Terrible things to be right about.
10
You should broaden you questioning of US public policy to its support and gifts of credibility to people who claim to know what nobody will ever know.
So much for religion being the opiate of the masses.
5
Why can't the western world impose sanctions against Saudi Arabia for radicalizing Muslims within and outside the country? And what are the world bodies like UN doing to stop it? Why is Russia only a soft target for Western world sanctions though the country is suffering from and fighting terrorism wholeheartedly?
4
Thank you for this article, which is also news to me re Kosovo. Very informative and a clear call to separation of US interests from those of Saudi Arabia. That number "15 of 19 September Eleventh Hijackers" has always been haunting and we must eventually hold the SA royals accountable.
7
Saudi Arabia is not our friend. The Saudi royal family only cares about its own survival. We're stupid for playing along thinking there's a common interest between us. They know that and they take advantage of our stupidity.
10
It is a fact that the Repub anti-Muslim war mongers are afraid to say the words "Sunni Radical Islam Violence". ISIL has been financially supported by Saudi Arabian groups, just Osama Bin Laden and Al Quieda. Repubs are more worried about the Shia being contained as Saudi and Israel wishes. Someone should ask Trump why he is afraid to say Sunni Radical Islamic terror.
3
Here's the op-ed on September 30, 2014 in The Guardian, written by Kosovo prime minister Hashim Thaçi.
Kosovo is fully behind America’s fight against Isis | Hashim Thaçi http://gu.com/p/422tb/stw
He rejects the claims that his country has become a safe haven for Islamist radicalism and an exporter of foreign fighters to Iraq and Syria, assuring that he would crack down on jihadism.
He also says: "Kosovars wholly reject the religious dogma proposed by radical strains of political Islam, and we shall not allow it to endanger our path towards eventual Nato and EU membership."
But it still has a long way to go!
Kosovo is fully behind America’s fight against Isis | Hashim Thaçi http://gu.com/p/422tb/stw
He rejects the claims that his country has become a safe haven for Islamist radicalism and an exporter of foreign fighters to Iraq and Syria, assuring that he would crack down on jihadism.
He also says: "Kosovars wholly reject the religious dogma proposed by radical strains of political Islam, and we shall not allow it to endanger our path towards eventual Nato and EU membership."
But it still has a long way to go!
3
And Saudi Arabia is US's best friend.
What does that says about the US?
What does that says about the US?
9
That Saudi Arabia is not sanctioned as a state which nurtures Sunni terrorism is completely ridiculous. In fact ISIS would not exist, if it were not for the support of the Kingdom. The World Trade Center, where my son has his senior prom at the Windows on the World would still be standing instead of having become an imploded grave of smouldering rubble for three thousand Americans.
The 9/11 attack became a cause for war with States like Iraq, and Libya, which had nothing to do with the demolition of the Towers, but the FBI, and the CIA managed to overlook the fact that Saudi terrorists were in America legally, and training to fly big jets.
For reasons, yet to be explained, George W Bush spoke the mantra "Saddam! 9/11! Never forget!" And we went to war with Islam allied with Saudi Arabia! We were clearly deceived, but a lot of us didn't care, and apparently still don't.
While we may have sympathy for the people Kosovo, the fact remains that Islamic Albanian Kosovo is a part of Serbia, which the US enabled to secede from Serbia illegally.
Instead of wasted emotions for the Albanian Kosovars, the NYT should express sympathy and support for the victims of 9/11, and excoriate the colossal failure by the US Government to expedite justice by punishing Saudi Arabia for all of the misery that they have caused in the name of the Great Game of distributing oil, behind a wave of Sunni terror. Al Qaeda, The Taliban, and ISIS are all on them!
The 9/11 attack became a cause for war with States like Iraq, and Libya, which had nothing to do with the demolition of the Towers, but the FBI, and the CIA managed to overlook the fact that Saudi terrorists were in America legally, and training to fly big jets.
For reasons, yet to be explained, George W Bush spoke the mantra "Saddam! 9/11! Never forget!" And we went to war with Islam allied with Saudi Arabia! We were clearly deceived, but a lot of us didn't care, and apparently still don't.
While we may have sympathy for the people Kosovo, the fact remains that Islamic Albanian Kosovo is a part of Serbia, which the US enabled to secede from Serbia illegally.
Instead of wasted emotions for the Albanian Kosovars, the NYT should express sympathy and support for the victims of 9/11, and excoriate the colossal failure by the US Government to expedite justice by punishing Saudi Arabia for all of the misery that they have caused in the name of the Great Game of distributing oil, behind a wave of Sunni terror. Al Qaeda, The Taliban, and ISIS are all on them!
11
Duh. My first words when we invaded Iraq in 2003: "ummm....isn't this the wrong country entirely?"
The Saudis have always been the problem. THEY ARE THE PROBLEM. Follow the money. The money and power are in Saudi Arabia.
They are NOT OUR FRIENDS.
The Saudis have always been the problem. THEY ARE THE PROBLEM. Follow the money. The money and power are in Saudi Arabia.
They are NOT OUR FRIENDS.
15
Do you remember 1973, when we capitulated to the oil boycott and began the enrichment of oil producers? We paid for our own attackers.
Remember when gas was 25 ¢ a gallon? $4 a gallon crushed our economy.
You could kill every Jew and these mullahs won't be satisfied; they need everyone to submit to their authority. Germans learned that lesson and do not allow unfettered hate to be espoused. The tribes that make up the middle east have not - not even mine.
So violence will continue, and until we use drones in these countries - and yes, remind illegal settlers that there's a price to be paid for flaunting the law, we're cutting off tentacles: the threat survives.
Remember when gas was 25 ¢ a gallon? $4 a gallon crushed our economy.
You could kill every Jew and these mullahs won't be satisfied; they need everyone to submit to their authority. Germans learned that lesson and do not allow unfettered hate to be espoused. The tribes that make up the middle east have not - not even mine.
So violence will continue, and until we use drones in these countries - and yes, remind illegal settlers that there's a price to be paid for flaunting the law, we're cutting off tentacles: the threat survives.
1
Forget the drones..
So long as we have war,, I think all members of Congress and male members of their families over 21, the president's cabinet including women, should serve on the frontline annually for three months.
Things would change fast, really fast.
Easy to support war when your onw life is not at stake, eh?
So long as we have war,, I think all members of Congress and male members of their families over 21, the president's cabinet including women, should serve on the frontline annually for three months.
Things would change fast, really fast.
Easy to support war when your onw life is not at stake, eh?
1
We should be imposing financial sanctions and an economic embargo on Saudi Arabia instead of continuing to foment a foolish Cold War with Russia which is Western and Christian.
But our leaders (and Europe's) are as myopic as Mr. Magoo. They continue to ignore the historic reality that for the last 1300 years, the dominant world struggle has been stopping the aggresively expanding Islam.
But our leaders (and Europe's) are as myopic as Mr. Magoo. They continue to ignore the historic reality that for the last 1300 years, the dominant world struggle has been stopping the aggresively expanding Islam.
11
Pay no attention to dancing Saudis 'here to document the event'
Heeeeey, wait a second..
Heeeeey, wait a second..
3
Just to be clear, under Clinton the US bombed a Catholic country to support a Muslum country. That move seemed ridiculous then, perilous now.
5
A truly "Catholic" country would not have comitted the horendous crimes against innocent Muslums in the first place. Bill Clinton was on the side of the angels.
5
Let's be clearer, Clinton stepped in to stop a "Christian" country from committing genocide on a Muslim country. You know, genocide, it's what Jesus would do.
4
Serbia is primarily Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic.
I am not sure that Saudi Arabia is any better or any worse than most of the Middle East when it comes to Muslim extremism. Outside of Lebanon, virtually every Middle Eastern country has an overwhelmingly negative view of the United States. Domestic terrorism is considerably worse elsewhere in the Middle East than in Saudi Arabia. As the Times has previously noted, foreign cultural and intellectual influence in the Middle East is sparse. True, most Middle Eastern Muisims oppose jihadis and suicide bombers. But the overwhelming majority, outside of Lebanon, subscribe to religious law. and 91% believe that only the religious are moral.
According to the Pew Research Center, overwhelming majorities of Middle eastern Muslims consider homosexuality, alcohol, and abortion to be immoral and they believe that a woman should obey her husband. And most want Islam to play a role in their government.
All this raises the question whether Wahhabism is all that radical and all that different from mainstream Middle Eastern religious thought.
According to the Pew Research Center, overwhelming majorities of Middle eastern Muslims consider homosexuality, alcohol, and abortion to be immoral and they believe that a woman should obey her husband. And most want Islam to play a role in their government.
All this raises the question whether Wahhabism is all that radical and all that different from mainstream Middle Eastern religious thought.
4
The difference is that Wahhabism supports and encourages killing "infidels." It is one thing to have a set of beliefs that you follow, and quite another to try to impose those beliefs on others through violence.
4
Folks, let us make it hard for Saudi Arabia by imposing UN sanctions on them.
This is the 1st time in the modern history that one particular brand of one particular religion is terrorizing the whole world. Doesn´t matter how strongly we comment here, doesn´t matter how sincerely the NYT exposes the Wahhabi venom, it just is not going to vanish unless tougher actions are taken globally. Why, why, just why, only a few thousand Royal blood bearers would enjoy unlimited power by blackmailing the entire humanity. What good is in Sharia that they MUST export to all parts of the world by swords? What do they Saudi Royals want actually? To impose Islam on us? And this violent, rotten, and morbid version?
Sooner this anti human country is taken to justice the better for the mankind. It still isn´t too late, my friends, it still isn´t too late.
Peace and Light. Thanks!!!
This is the 1st time in the modern history that one particular brand of one particular religion is terrorizing the whole world. Doesn´t matter how strongly we comment here, doesn´t matter how sincerely the NYT exposes the Wahhabi venom, it just is not going to vanish unless tougher actions are taken globally. Why, why, just why, only a few thousand Royal blood bearers would enjoy unlimited power by blackmailing the entire humanity. What good is in Sharia that they MUST export to all parts of the world by swords? What do they Saudi Royals want actually? To impose Islam on us? And this violent, rotten, and morbid version?
Sooner this anti human country is taken to justice the better for the mankind. It still isn´t too late, my friends, it still isn´t too late.
Peace and Light. Thanks!!!
9
So, by heavily funding and protecting our "friendly" Saudis, does this make America COMPLICIT in the actual spreding of the very terror that we are now trying to wipe out? What a strange world we live in ........
21
Ever since I saw pictures of GW Bush kissing and holding hands with a Saudi royal family member, I thought we were kissing cousins, and like a lot of kissing cousins, each has an agenda that doesn't always benefit the other. But, having loads of cousins, I have always had one or two whose agenda is opposed to mine to the point that they kiss and hand hold while undermining all that I stand for.
Seems to me our kissing cousin Saudi Arabia is Judas come back. And we support them with arms and all they need to protect themselves when we should be protecting the countries that they are infiltrating and destroying from within with their religion as an excuse to control the mid-east and make it a Wahabbi paradise.
Seems to me our kissing cousin Saudi Arabia is Judas come back. And we support them with arms and all they need to protect themselves when we should be protecting the countries that they are infiltrating and destroying from within with their religion as an excuse to control the mid-east and make it a Wahabbi paradise.
13
To bad the news media does not tell Americans more about how the Saudis treat their women. But then the Saudis would not buy advertisement time on their networks through their shell companies.
14
Years from now if not sooner we will look back on our relationship with Saudi Arabia and wonder what were we doing. The Saudis have contributed to presidential campaigns,they have built presidential libraries. They know American politicians are whores when it comes to money and the Saudis play us like a fiddle.
17
That the Saudi rulers are not nice has been a fact hiding in plain sight
for all too many years.
Nasty clerics at the root of terrorism's evils and supported by a rich,
oppressive government is one of the biggest stories not told.
Yet another result of the pathetically sad state of mainstream journalism.
Thanks be to The Times, anyway, for finally exposing Saudi Arabia.
for all too many years.
Nasty clerics at the root of terrorism's evils and supported by a rich,
oppressive government is one of the biggest stories not told.
Yet another result of the pathetically sad state of mainstream journalism.
Thanks be to The Times, anyway, for finally exposing Saudi Arabia.
8
Goooooood Morning NYT editors!
Did you know you were asleep since 9/11/2001?
Did you know you were asleep since 9/11/2001?
14
Near the end of his life, Thomas Jefferson despairingly described the South's relationship to slavery as "having a wolf by the ears." The institution, in his judgment, posed a serious threat to the region, whether the whites preserved or abolished it.
The Saudi princes, it would appear, face a similar dilemma with respect to the Wahhabist sect of Islam. The clerics support, or at least tolerate, the autocratic rule of the Saud family, in exchange for financial support and a free hand in spreading their religious poison throughout much of the ME. This faustian bargain, however, has finally begun to exact its price in the form of terrorist attacks within the kingdom. If this violence should provoke the government into a violation of its end of the bargain through a crack down on the clergy, how would these gentlemen respond? It's a safe bet the princes, with their lavish lifestyles (and perhaps their very lives) at stake, don't want to find out.
But for America and the West, the dangerous relationship with the Saudis long ago ceased to satisfy any cost/benefit calculus. If the US withdrew its shield from the regime, how would the princes respond? They must sell oil or perish. The regime might try to manipulate the price in its favor, but any sustained cut in production would hurt the Saudis more than Europe or this country.
Time for us to remember that the princes of the Saud family, not the West, have the wolf by the ears.
The Saudi princes, it would appear, face a similar dilemma with respect to the Wahhabist sect of Islam. The clerics support, or at least tolerate, the autocratic rule of the Saud family, in exchange for financial support and a free hand in spreading their religious poison throughout much of the ME. This faustian bargain, however, has finally begun to exact its price in the form of terrorist attacks within the kingdom. If this violence should provoke the government into a violation of its end of the bargain through a crack down on the clergy, how would these gentlemen respond? It's a safe bet the princes, with their lavish lifestyles (and perhaps their very lives) at stake, don't want to find out.
But for America and the West, the dangerous relationship with the Saudis long ago ceased to satisfy any cost/benefit calculus. If the US withdrew its shield from the regime, how would the princes respond? They must sell oil or perish. The regime might try to manipulate the price in its favor, but any sustained cut in production would hurt the Saudis more than Europe or this country.
Time for us to remember that the princes of the Saud family, not the West, have the wolf by the ears.
5
The true dimension of this outrage extends much further than Kosovo. Saudi extremism influence is seen around the Muslim world and beyond. Pakistan is a prime example. The Taliban are both financed and heavily influenced by Saudi extremist thinking. Not only do they brutalize Afghanistan, it has brought Pakistan to the point of being ungovernable. When the US really comes to terms with the extent of this danger, it may well see this ironic truth: Saudis have created a much more dangerous world than Iran ever has. Iranian theology, for all its anti-Semitism, is in large part simply a proxy for protecting Muslim minorities -- that is Shiites -- against the majority Sunnis. Additionally, as scholars have long noted, Shiite theology has much in common with Catholicism, such as its veneration of martyrs and saints and its penitential aspects.
17
You mean Christianity ?
Western Christianity is no different than Islam, in that both are specifically nurtured to keep division among ethnicities and creeds alive, all so the masters of mankind may continue their rule, and accumulation of all the wealth of the planet.
Western Christianity is no different than Islam, in that both are specifically nurtured to keep division among ethnicities and creeds alive, all so the masters of mankind may continue their rule, and accumulation of all the wealth of the planet.
Terror, it's great for business, the war business that is.
5
It seems that like "free speech" that also has its limits, "freedom of religion" too cannot be used to yell "fire" in a troubled, but peaceful, society. Saudi Arabia has used the tolerance of religious freedom to sow the hate of "extreme versions of Islam" (aka Wahhabism) that brought the 9/11 attackers here and gave birth to ISIS abroad. You make it clear that defeating ISIS will require the U.S. and its Western allies finally to confront its very "heart of darkness" that is the medieval monarchy, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which has, in effect, become the major sponsor of Islamic terrorism.
105
You neglect our prez Dubwa 's mischief in Iraq as a catalyst for isis
There is no freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia, only freedom of more or less radical terrorist Islam. Jews are forbidden and Christians may only practice their religion in private "counseling sessions" on company property viz ARAMCO et al.
Fifteen years ago, the year that Saudis flew planes into buildings, a movie called "A.I." chronicled the transition into human society of an artificial intelligence that resembled a child.
Religious proselytizing is the programming of new AI's by a previous generation of AI's. For what is a computer program but a choice of how to use an intelligent architecture? A computer can be purposed to solve complex equations or fetch pages of cat memes. A young human child can be programmed to celebrate its short time on Earth or to become (to use imagery from a more recent film shot in New Zealand) a mindless Orc pledged to destroy those who decline to worship his Lord and Master.
What a dilemma. Humans entertain lots of unreal concepts, but in nearly all cases such psychosis is harmless. When Charles Manson programmed his harem to kill Sharon Tate and her guests, we cut the man no slack. He claimed no higher purpose for his butchery.
When a young person wears C4 into a crowd and detonates, though, in favor of the hometown deity, we can be empathetic toward not only the victims but also the perpetrator, for we know in our DNA that that young person was not destined from birth to spew hatred into the face of humanity. Rather, he or she was an AI shanghaied into an acceptable mental illness and then trained to kill by elders who in turn had been hijacked in their cribs. Old AIs train new AIs.
The story is as old as the planet. However, this tale is now sponsored by our tax dollars.
Religious proselytizing is the programming of new AI's by a previous generation of AI's. For what is a computer program but a choice of how to use an intelligent architecture? A computer can be purposed to solve complex equations or fetch pages of cat memes. A young human child can be programmed to celebrate its short time on Earth or to become (to use imagery from a more recent film shot in New Zealand) a mindless Orc pledged to destroy those who decline to worship his Lord and Master.
What a dilemma. Humans entertain lots of unreal concepts, but in nearly all cases such psychosis is harmless. When Charles Manson programmed his harem to kill Sharon Tate and her guests, we cut the man no slack. He claimed no higher purpose for his butchery.
When a young person wears C4 into a crowd and detonates, though, in favor of the hometown deity, we can be empathetic toward not only the victims but also the perpetrator, for we know in our DNA that that young person was not destined from birth to spew hatred into the face of humanity. Rather, he or she was an AI shanghaied into an acceptable mental illness and then trained to kill by elders who in turn had been hijacked in their cribs. Old AIs train new AIs.
The story is as old as the planet. However, this tale is now sponsored by our tax dollars.
10
So are you saying that these individuals are machines? Humans possess "actual" intelligence, along with emotion, fear, love, hate. Machines do not hate, that which has AI is not human. You cannot attribute a mental illness to something that is artificial. It is not helpful to equate people to machines, even if unintentionally. There is no problem pulling the plug on a computer. I am sure a suicide bomber feels fear. There is nothing "artificial" about any of this. The tragedy is the situation in which real people see so little hope that nihilism is a viable option. Then hatred can provide purpose. Or are you saying machines can have unfulfilled hopes and aspirations? You have to be human first to be dehumanized. Your argument does not make sense.
Everyone remembers the 1979 Iranian hostage crisis as a cataclysmic world event. But an even greater cataclysmic world event occurred in 1979 that very few people talk about: The siege of the Grand Mosque in Saudi Arabia by Wahabbist radicals. The French special forces took them out, but the dye was cast.
The Mullahs of Saudi Arabis made a deal with these radicals: Don't do this here. Export your terror. And we fund you. We will fund your immigration jihad. We will build your mosques in other countries. Just don't ever do your jihad shtick here.
That's is why we had 9/11, international Islamic terrorism, ISIS, and World War. The seeds wer down in 1979. In Mecca. In Saudi Arabia.
The Mullahs of Saudi Arabis made a deal with these radicals: Don't do this here. Export your terror. And we fund you. We will fund your immigration jihad. We will build your mosques in other countries. Just don't ever do your jihad shtick here.
That's is why we had 9/11, international Islamic terrorism, ISIS, and World War. The seeds wer down in 1979. In Mecca. In Saudi Arabia.
14
What this editorial conveniently omits from its narrative is the ideological service performed by the Wahabists for the US during the Cold War when their militantly reactionary views made them a bulwark against secular nationalisms, socialism and communism that threatened the interests of Western corporations, most notoriously but by no means exclusively in Afghanistan.
Western powers and mass media were content to remain silent on the Medeival brutality of their Wahabists allies so long as their victims were darker skinned peasants, workers and leftists. Indeed they would often praise them as "freedom fighters."
Western powers and mass media were content to remain silent on the Medeival brutality of their Wahabists allies so long as their victims were darker skinned peasants, workers and leftists. Indeed they would often praise them as "freedom fighters."
168
"Western powers and mass media were content to remain silent on the Medeival brutality of their Wahabists allies so long as their victims were darker skinned peasants, workers and leftists. Indeed they would often praise them as "freedom fighters." "
When fighter agains Soviet aggression, freedom fighter was the correct term.
When fighter agains Soviet aggression, freedom fighter was the correct term.
Saudi Arabia’s championship of radicalized Islam is not new. During World War I, Britain encountered the Saudis as London tried to align Arab tribes in opposing the Turks. In the aftermath of the war, England’s main ally the Hashemites battled the Saudis for supremacy. Ibn Saud’s victory not only assured his control of the region but cemented Wahhabism to the throne.
But Riyadh was not alone in trying to capitalize on radical Islam to further political ends.
The United States employed Islam in the Cold War. Arab nationalism was viewed as a mask for Soviet penetration into the region. American efforts such as CENTO seemed to fail as Moscow made inroads into Egypt and Syria, and later Iraq. Washington countered the secularism that these nations represented by turning to Islam. The intra-Arab struggles of the 1950s to the 1970s saw America more often than not allied with Islamic governments in combating the more secular rulers.
When the Soviets moved into Afghanistan, we once more turned to religion as a weapon. As political leaders celebrated Saudi money and American arms in the defeat of Russia, Osama bin Laden capitalized on the situation to create al-Qaeda.
Arab Gulf kingdoms’ responsibility for Islamic radicalism is seldom discussed in DC. But it makes a farce of our War on Terrorism when those closest to us insures the failure of our efforts to fight it.
But Riyadh was not alone in trying to capitalize on radical Islam to further political ends.
The United States employed Islam in the Cold War. Arab nationalism was viewed as a mask for Soviet penetration into the region. American efforts such as CENTO seemed to fail as Moscow made inroads into Egypt and Syria, and later Iraq. Washington countered the secularism that these nations represented by turning to Islam. The intra-Arab struggles of the 1950s to the 1970s saw America more often than not allied with Islamic governments in combating the more secular rulers.
When the Soviets moved into Afghanistan, we once more turned to religion as a weapon. As political leaders celebrated Saudi money and American arms in the defeat of Russia, Osama bin Laden capitalized on the situation to create al-Qaeda.
Arab Gulf kingdoms’ responsibility for Islamic radicalism is seldom discussed in DC. But it makes a farce of our War on Terrorism when those closest to us insures the failure of our efforts to fight it.
5
Why do people complain about Cuba and human rights when our allies, the Saudis and Pakistanis, regularly torture and execute people for political and religious reasons? As the article notes, the Saudis also spread the fertilizer for radical Islamic terrorism. When was the last time we had a terrorist inspired by the Castros? Answer: never.
15
Well...actually Che Guevara was a Castro export and a terrorist. But that was a long time ago.
Absent opportunity, people will turn to whatever promises a sense of belonging, purpose, and access to power. The cultural setting is irrelevant— a gang in Chicago, a mosque in Kosovo. That governments assist these illegitimate and destructive causes— lax national gun laws in the former example, exporting Wahhabism in the latter—is unconscionable.
97
Saudi Arabia has promised to build 400 mosques in Europe for the millions who have invaded the country over the last two years. No doubt it will supply the radical Imams as well.
This does not bode well for Europe and any idea of assimilation with the host people will be an impossibility.
This does not bode well for Europe and any idea of assimilation with the host people will be an impossibility.
1
Perhaps, but nothing inspires people to violence quite like religious ideology because it promises not just material gain but transcendance.
No. Cultural settings matter. There is something rotten in a culture that forbids music.
There are a lot of guys like Bin Laden--educated people with plenty of opportunities, who, because of the culture of Saudi Arabia, become monsters.
There are a lot of guys like Bin Laden--educated people with plenty of opportunities, who, because of the culture of Saudi Arabia, become monsters.
1
I once had a friend with significant investments tell me that the job of our military stance and international relationships was "to make the World safe for business." I think that is, and remains, the driving force behind our foreign policy.
12
When a Marine Corp General wins The Medal of Honor, twice,
and then goes on to tell us all "War Is A Racket," only those who $omehow benefit from war, plug their ears.
and then goes on to tell us all "War Is A Racket," only those who $omehow benefit from war, plug their ears.
6
" the job of our military stance and international relationships was "to make the World safe for business." I think that is, and remains, the driving force behind our foreign policy.''
Our constitution allowed for a Navy to keep the trade routes open. As a nation dependent on the importation of raw goods and the ability to deliver finished goods this is a necessity. Jefferson sent the Navy and Marines into Tripoli Libya to fight the Barbary Pirates who were disrupting that trading by attacking merchant ships and holding them and their crews for ransom.
The constitution did not authorize an army except under the most necessary need and allowed it to stand for only two years. This was considered necessary to guarantee a nation free from an armed federal government.
Alfred T Mahon's book on sea power is still read at the Naval Academy for it's premise that a nation that makes it living by overseas trade must have a Navy.
Our constitution allowed for a Navy to keep the trade routes open. As a nation dependent on the importation of raw goods and the ability to deliver finished goods this is a necessity. Jefferson sent the Navy and Marines into Tripoli Libya to fight the Barbary Pirates who were disrupting that trading by attacking merchant ships and holding them and their crews for ransom.
The constitution did not authorize an army except under the most necessary need and allowed it to stand for only two years. This was considered necessary to guarantee a nation free from an armed federal government.
Alfred T Mahon's book on sea power is still read at the Naval Academy for it's premise that a nation that makes it living by overseas trade must have a Navy.
1
How can Saudi Arabia - the country that is funding extremism among young and older zealous and radical Muslims to take over the world - be our ally and "friend"? Where is Prince Bandar bin Sultan the great Saudi Ambassador to the United States in the 1970s and 80s intil 2005? Surely he could explain how his country has gone off the rails and is now promulgating ISIS, Da'esh, The New Caliphate, The New Islamic State? Energy independence will cut the awful umbilical cord between Saudi Arabia and America.
16
1. Ban the use of US dollar currency in purchasing Saudi oil. This is an efficient practice where US authorities ban dollar transactions with terrorist groups, like the Saudis
2. If that does not work, lets try out Ted Cruz's theory and see if Saudi sand glows in the dark
FYI - I am an American citizen who moved here legally after my home country, a Muslim nation, was laid to waste by Saudi funded "schools"
2. If that does not work, lets try out Ted Cruz's theory and see if Saudi sand glows in the dark
FYI - I am an American citizen who moved here legally after my home country, a Muslim nation, was laid to waste by Saudi funded "schools"
3
Curious that the Saudis sit at the epicenter of two very different but nontheless apocalyptic threats to civilization: exporting insane religious fanaticism (esp., Wahhabism and its various mutations) and feeding fossil fuel driven climate change (esp., energy industry money alliance with climate change deniers).
The Saudis are not solely responsible of course, human weaknesses for religion and money provide the hunger, but it's curious nonetheless. They will one day need to confront what they have delivered to the world.
The Saudis are not solely responsible of course, human weaknesses for religion and money provide the hunger, but it's curious nonetheless. They will one day need to confront what they have delivered to the world.
8
At no point in its history has the House of Saud been a friend of the United States or Europe. The need for Saudi oil and for oil-rich customers for American armaments has encouraged our politicians to turn a blind eye to the obvious. Wahhabi extremism has always had as its endgame the destruction of Western influence. Saudi Arabia may carefully push the right buttons in Washington and at the Pentagon and even in Tel Aviv, but the nation which dominates the Arabian Peninsula is our worst enemy in the region.
233
Finally! NY Times has had the courage to acknowledge the pernicious ideology propagated by Saudi Arabia through Wahabism. Every jihadist has its roots in Wahabism.
With the promise of martyrdom and paradise to a disaffected and gullible youth, there is no ideology that can stop a suicide bomber from massacring entire communities.
"You like life we enjoy death' is the ultimate expression by jihadists with which Wahabism has poisoned thousands of its adherents.
With the promise of martyrdom and paradise to a disaffected and gullible youth, there is no ideology that can stop a suicide bomber from massacring entire communities.
"You like life we enjoy death' is the ultimate expression by jihadists with which Wahabism has poisoned thousands of its adherents.
saw, well said. The historian and journalist, Kevin Phillips, wrote a massive tome called, "American Dynasty" about the rise of the Bush and Walker families following WW1. As the first war conducted with petroleum-driven machinery (tanks, planes, trucks ...), they saw massive wealth creation for themselves if they invested in oil and military defense contractors. Linking up with the Harriman Company in NYC, the die was cast.
Tagging along by the 1970s was Richard Cheney. Does anyone recall the outcry, during the Bush43 years, when it was proposed that the United States sell the operations of the Port of Houston to the Saudis? Make no mistake, then-veep, Dick Cheney, a devoted oil man, had a hand in that concept. Perhaps it was a Bush family-driven proposal all along.
Someday, forensic accounting experts will peruse the accounts of Dick Cheney to "follow the money" (to borrow a phrase from the Watergate investigation). No one will be surprised when billions of dollars are found in offshore accounts, mostly gained from Halliburton /KBR income during the invasions of Iraq. No-bid contracts to Cheney's former employer (Halliburton) and the privately-owned security service company, Blackwater (famous for random murders of Iraqi citizens) were common to privatize war operations.
Toward the end of the 1980s, the Bush41-driven Carlyle Group invested in oil and defense contracts with former Defense Department official Frank Carlucci at the helm. Saudi connections remain today.
Tagging along by the 1970s was Richard Cheney. Does anyone recall the outcry, during the Bush43 years, when it was proposed that the United States sell the operations of the Port of Houston to the Saudis? Make no mistake, then-veep, Dick Cheney, a devoted oil man, had a hand in that concept. Perhaps it was a Bush family-driven proposal all along.
Someday, forensic accounting experts will peruse the accounts of Dick Cheney to "follow the money" (to borrow a phrase from the Watergate investigation). No one will be surprised when billions of dollars are found in offshore accounts, mostly gained from Halliburton /KBR income during the invasions of Iraq. No-bid contracts to Cheney's former employer (Halliburton) and the privately-owned security service company, Blackwater (famous for random murders of Iraqi citizens) were common to privatize war operations.
Toward the end of the 1980s, the Bush41-driven Carlyle Group invested in oil and defense contracts with former Defense Department official Frank Carlucci at the helm. Saudi connections remain today.
Wait, haven't you seen the photos of G W Bush holding hands and kissing the cheek of a Saudi Prince?
The Bush family has made tens of millions of dollars by being in bed with the House of Saud as members of the Carlyle financial group but US troops have paid for this alliance with their lives!
The Bush family has made tens of millions of dollars by being in bed with the House of Saud as members of the Carlyle financial group but US troops have paid for this alliance with their lives!
1
The karma bus really did make a huge stop for all. The Saudi's are the enemy. I have been harping on this for 20 years, old news.
8
The US and European oil companies for decades have demanded and gotten a "hands off" policy on Saudi Arabian religious rot. Our failure to clamp down on the Wahhabis means that ISIS will stand as a monument to Cheney/Bush and to big and little oil everywhere. Once again, The Times is late to the table with "gee whiz" coverage of ancient stories and impossible fixes.
13
Go look in the archive and see if they said this in 2003 -- 13 years later it is absolutely useless.
1
What of the infamous 28 pages of the 911 Commission report that remain under classification wraps? Ten years and waiting.
10
Obama has promised to veto their release, should Congress rule they be released.
Some change we got, putting this charlatan into office.
Some change we got, putting this charlatan into office.
3
so many voices raised in alsrm, so few willing to listen...the oilers spun, the bushes protected, infotainment happy retailing thr kool ade...poor condoleeza, unable to see the dots much less connect them....colin powell on power point...sad stuff america.
9
The Saudis are the true enemy in the mideast not Iran, they were never a friend same with Pakistan.
12
The Editorial Board argues that "The Sunni Arab states still do not seem to understand the extent to which extreme versions of Islam imperil them as well."
There's a parallel in another country, where the Southern Strategy and related propaganda efforts of the billionaire class appears to have created a monster that not only opposes the adversaries of the billionaires, but also the billionaires' traditional political front organization, when it's members appear "too moderate" in the culture wars, too timid in advancing nativist white supremacy, Christian dominionism, misogyny, and opposition to science, and instead supports erratic, irrational, destabilizing and destructive policies...
There's a parallel in another country, where the Southern Strategy and related propaganda efforts of the billionaire class appears to have created a monster that not only opposes the adversaries of the billionaires, but also the billionaires' traditional political front organization, when it's members appear "too moderate" in the culture wars, too timid in advancing nativist white supremacy, Christian dominionism, misogyny, and opposition to science, and instead supports erratic, irrational, destabilizing and destructive policies...
7
Until the Saudi monarchy and its well funded instrumental use of the extremist Wahhabi version of Islam continues to go unchallenged by the liberal Islamic scholarship and the larger Muslim community in general, it would continue to be the most destabilising force in the world, making a harmonious living a thing of the past. It's high time the US, the main ally of Saudi Arabia, reviews its ties with the latter and rework its whole Middle East policy and the engagement with the Muslim world accordingly.
33
All extremist religion is nothing more than shirk and idolatry.
2
Saudi Arabians are the Beverly Hillbillies of the Middle East. They lucked into oil and insulated by their wealth, have felt no need to accommodate themselves to the demands of a modern world. Instead, everything of cultural, technological or intellectual value is imported; their only exports being oil and a codified medieval intolerance. For those who recall the TV show, the Hillbillies were cosseted by the obsequious Mr. Drysdale, a banker willing to suffer their relationship as long as the oil money kept flowing. The parallels are unnerving...
4
It's literally screaming for a parody, but nobody today is brave enough to lampoon the Saudis -- not after Charlie Hebdo.
1
How is Saudi Arabia our ally?
Sam Beckett deserves quoting here. He said something to the effect that he did not want to destroy his enemies; he wanted to corrupt them.
Saudi Arabia has done worse. It has infected the planet.
I am a bleeding heart liberal. Yet, if Trump promises to spend the first 100 days ejecting the Saudi royals, and taking it over as a protectorate where we control the oil, and the money that comes from it, he gets my vote. I think it is abhorrent for Trump to speak of banning Muslims; I will wholeheartedly support the deportation of any civilian on Saudi payroll (that would be the mullahs who are preaching 'death to all disbelievers' at every prayer).
He has said something about taking over the oil in Saudi Arabia. And if he delivers, he gets my undying loyalty. Why? Because some causes (freedom from tyranny of Saudi-brand Islam, the freedom from random violence, the freedom from the destruction of mankind by a medieval philosophy) calls for sacrifices. So that my children and their children are never asked: "where is your hijab?" And that my daughter can become a fighter pilot she may want to be some day. That is why.
Kalidan
Sam Beckett deserves quoting here. He said something to the effect that he did not want to destroy his enemies; he wanted to corrupt them.
Saudi Arabia has done worse. It has infected the planet.
I am a bleeding heart liberal. Yet, if Trump promises to spend the first 100 days ejecting the Saudi royals, and taking it over as a protectorate where we control the oil, and the money that comes from it, he gets my vote. I think it is abhorrent for Trump to speak of banning Muslims; I will wholeheartedly support the deportation of any civilian on Saudi payroll (that would be the mullahs who are preaching 'death to all disbelievers' at every prayer).
He has said something about taking over the oil in Saudi Arabia. And if he delivers, he gets my undying loyalty. Why? Because some causes (freedom from tyranny of Saudi-brand Islam, the freedom from random violence, the freedom from the destruction of mankind by a medieval philosophy) calls for sacrifices. So that my children and their children are never asked: "where is your hijab?" And that my daughter can become a fighter pilot she may want to be some day. That is why.
Kalidan
2
It is not only Kosovo that is being infected, it is all of western europe. And, it is not only the saudis that are to blame, the turks are no better.
We need to stop cuddling our enemy and giving in to their demands, we are only digging a deeper hole for ourselves!
We need to stop cuddling our enemy and giving in to their demands, we are only digging a deeper hole for ourselves!
7
There are few places in the world where people will not make a direct, or indirect, critical comment about SA. In stead of confronting SA intelligently after September 11th, US went on some convoluted diversion that has cost 100,000 innocent lives (including in the Middle East ) and nearly three trillion dollars. How did SA get so indomitable and the US so stupid?
And on religion I have no problem with adults voluntary choosing to convert to a religion that makes sense to them, or is helpful or beneficial to them. The problem with many religious conversion programs, like deviant culfs, is that they prey on the poor, the desperate, the sick, the lonley, the uneducated, the unschooled, the isolated, the psychologically distressed, the naive, the trusting and the young. That is cruel, and a serious violation of human rights and human decency.
When I hear of young boys in Pakistan, poor, illiterate and from remote areas, being brainwashed by men with wealth and power to kill themselves in the name of their religion it makes one sick. Pakistan should sue Saudi Arabia for for what it tries to do to its young, and so must many poor countries affected by SA's nonsense.
And on religion I have no problem with adults voluntary choosing to convert to a religion that makes sense to them, or is helpful or beneficial to them. The problem with many religious conversion programs, like deviant culfs, is that they prey on the poor, the desperate, the sick, the lonley, the uneducated, the unschooled, the isolated, the psychologically distressed, the naive, the trusting and the young. That is cruel, and a serious violation of human rights and human decency.
When I hear of young boys in Pakistan, poor, illiterate and from remote areas, being brainwashed by men with wealth and power to kill themselves in the name of their religion it makes one sick. Pakistan should sue Saudi Arabia for for what it tries to do to its young, and so must many poor countries affected by SA's nonsense.
8
Yeah, but that does not explain at all the problem of Syeed Rizwan Farook -- the San Bernardino shooter. He was a US citizen, a Muslim, educated and quite successful. Not some poor desperate Pakistani kid.
The European Muslims being radicalized -- the teenage girls running away to the Middle East to marry terrorist husbands -- they did not arise out of poverty nor ignorance.
The European Muslims being radicalized -- the teenage girls running away to the Middle East to marry terrorist husbands -- they did not arise out of poverty nor ignorance.
1
While the danger of what the Saudis and their Gulf neighbors have been doing has been obvious since at least 9/11, it is only recently that we see editorials like this in mainstream media. And we're seeing a lot of it recently, and that's good. Why now? For decades there was nothing that the West could do about the situation. Confrontation -militarily or otherwise - with the country that is the birthplace of Islam, ensured strong backlash and consolidation of Muslim support for the Saudis. The Saudis threat has always been that what comes after the Royal family will be worse. And there's the worry about a steady flow of oil. The Saudis were masters of duplicity, promising cooperation, helping sometimes, all the while doing their proselytizing and funding of extremists around the globe. But now the oil is plentiful, and cheap. The world is united (with the exception of the American GOP) in looking forward to new alternate energy sources. And President Obama has courageously made a deal with Sunni's arch enemy, Iran. The Saudis have less money and after the Iran deal - less clout to buy Congressional favor. Their power is diminishing to such a degree that opinion pieces can be more than futile whining. Their weakness gives us more power to affect solutions. The President has smartly remained publicly deferential to them, but the Saudis know that for the first time, they finally lost a game of chess with us. Bravo Mr. President.
6
Unfortunately for your theory, oil prices are creeping back up. Just since March, the price at the pump in the Midwest has gone up $1.20 -- back to $2.59 today -- it was as low as $1.39 for a few months. It won't take much at all to push it up another dollar and then we are back to exactly what we were paying a few years back.
3
I hope the Times continues these editorials, next time highlighting other groups the Saudis and their proxies have been paying off: American colleges and universities, think tanks, research organizations, scholarship funds and, of course, the Clinton Foundation, which has received between 10-25 million from the Saudis. The goal is to keep the straight story of Saudi duplicity from the public and these supposedly liberal institutions have proven very compliant.
14
I notice this article fails to mention the Saudi's own the Clinton's -- just as they owned the Bush family -- lock, stock and barrel.
3
We Americans have been manipulated by big oil, big defense, and the 1% for many years through several administrations. Invasion of Iraq amounted to an enormous diversionary tactic to redirect Americans attention away from Saudi Arabia.
The close friendship between the Bushes and Clintons is very suspicious and should have been a warning to Americans years ago. We are being lied to by those in power with the assistance of the press.
Trump is frightening the 1% because they can't control him. His erratic decisions are disrupting the status quo.
Hillary can be counted on to not threaten the moneyed class since she and Bill have been invited in to that cabal.
It's not an exaggeration to say that America has been taken over by a small group of ultra wealthy people. The only democracy we are given is that amount that doesn't threaten their power and control!
The close friendship between the Bushes and Clintons is very suspicious and should have been a warning to Americans years ago. We are being lied to by those in power with the assistance of the press.
Trump is frightening the 1% because they can't control him. His erratic decisions are disrupting the status quo.
Hillary can be counted on to not threaten the moneyed class since she and Bill have been invited in to that cabal.
It's not an exaggeration to say that America has been taken over by a small group of ultra wealthy people. The only democracy we are given is that amount that doesn't threaten their power and control!
13
So let's put Mr. Mega bucks in charge? Makes no sense.
Don't forget our current President bowing like a lackey to the Saudi monarchs on his first visit to the kingdom. Disgraceful.
2
Basing policy on things that aren't true creates a big weakness.
It's created a situation where what you'd normally call a conspiracy theory happens to be true.
This issue is tailor-made for exploitation by a xenophobic, racist, conspiracy-theory-promoting demagogue, should one come along.
It's created a situation where what you'd normally call a conspiracy theory happens to be true.
This issue is tailor-made for exploitation by a xenophobic, racist, conspiracy-theory-promoting demagogue, should one come along.
2
The US came to the rescue of Kosovo only to lose it to Islamism. That makes the US look like chumps. Our supposed ally Saudi Arabi let the US do their dirty work for them, and they received the benefit, which was contrary to the security interests of the west. In hindsight, and painful to say, the national security of the US and the west would have been better off had Kosovo remained part of Serbia, which is now peaceful and democratic and is currently in the process of meeting EU membership goals. Also, the war criminals have been brought to justice. This outcome of losing Kosovo so quickly after saving it should have been predictable and should be another wake up call to the west.
11
True . And they repeated the same mistake in Iraq.
1
Perhaps if the United States can become less "oil dependent", the need to support such "allies' as Saudi Arabia will diminish if not cease altogether.
The so called religious fissures in the region seem to block any attempts by the people who live there to quit violence and try co-operation. It's been that way since the death of the Prophet and shows no signs of retreat with one side sponsored by the Saudis and the other by the Iranians.
Any involvement by "infidels" is not wanted with the exception of selling both sides weapons.
The sooner we wean ourselves from the very commodity that funds all this senseless violence and remove ourselves militarily from the area, the better it will be.
The so called religious fissures in the region seem to block any attempts by the people who live there to quit violence and try co-operation. It's been that way since the death of the Prophet and shows no signs of retreat with one side sponsored by the Saudis and the other by the Iranians.
Any involvement by "infidels" is not wanted with the exception of selling both sides weapons.
The sooner we wean ourselves from the very commodity that funds all this senseless violence and remove ourselves militarily from the area, the better it will be.
5
Kosovo was never a peaceful, tolerant place, except in the eyes of the West. Its independence movement used the same violent tactics
3
Kosovo is an epicenter of a population contest for political control.
On one hand, we are exceptionally complicit. We also reap the rewards of reduced energy costs. Without oil, Saudi Arabia, and the world, would be a very different place. The larger issue in my eyes is that we can't, or refuse to, confront the larger contradictions because the opposite of a tyrannical regime in the Gulf is anarchy, similar to whats going on in Venezuela at this moment, and that is bad for markets
3
Oil wealth fuels unsustainable population growth.
Put solar panels down the median of every interstate in America. Include in this scenario a car battery that can be easily swapped out at a service station and hyper loop transit and the Saudi's can drink their oil. As the market dwindles, a greedy Saudi royal family will gobble up the remaining oil wealth and global warming will make their parched plot of ground harder and harder to sustain. They'll need to find another industry to remain relevant.
11
How shameful. It has taken the NYT this long to recognize the source of Sunni Wahhabi extremism as a result of laziness, stupidity, or collusion with mutual interests in oil, banking, and defense. Americans wonder why these Sunni Muslims are attacking us but have been blinded by the propaganda of our power elite, and our government. American leaders bound to Saudi wealth and Saudi oil sold our national security and our integrity.
The Saudis are dangerous because we have made them dangerous. We made them dangerous because our oil and banking and defense industries have formed a compelling alliance that has no regard for American citizens, or American military men and women. Today we have a glimmer of truth. The clouds have parted and we can see that our good friends are sending missionaries of murder, and absolute religious tyranny everywhere, and we financed Saudi Arabia and sold them weapons and promised to protect them.
Recently the Saudis have threatened America because we want to read 28 pages of evidence from the 9/11 commission. The NYT and responsible media must hammer those who prevent it and those who are working for the Saudis. These powerful people work in the oil, banking, and defense industries. They also work in the government and in the media. America has the means to end Saudi influence without harming our currency, or our credit. Those who deny it or prevent it are working for the Saudis.
The Saudis are dangerous because we have made them dangerous. We made them dangerous because our oil and banking and defense industries have formed a compelling alliance that has no regard for American citizens, or American military men and women. Today we have a glimmer of truth. The clouds have parted and we can see that our good friends are sending missionaries of murder, and absolute religious tyranny everywhere, and we financed Saudi Arabia and sold them weapons and promised to protect them.
Recently the Saudis have threatened America because we want to read 28 pages of evidence from the 9/11 commission. The NYT and responsible media must hammer those who prevent it and those who are working for the Saudis. These powerful people work in the oil, banking, and defense industries. They also work in the government and in the media. America has the means to end Saudi influence without harming our currency, or our credit. Those who deny it or prevent it are working for the Saudis.
25
The NY Times has had numerous articles regarding the problems associated with Saudi support for Wahhabi ideas. This article adds to these by describing Kosovo's struggles.
The only reason why we have a relationship with Saudi Arabia is its oil. Now that global warming has become a real and serious threat to our very existence, we should move as quickly as possible in adopting a fossil free future. Let's put Saudi Arabia in our rear view mirror where they belong and move quickly to embrace wind, solar, and hydro-electric sources for our energy needs and leave that part of the world to fend for itself. With friends like them, who needs enemies?
12
We've been mad about our dependence on foreign oil since the early 70s but to what avail? In that 40+ years, where is that "fossil free future"? It's no closer. We still can't heat homes or run cars on what we have -- wimpy little solar panels and huge noisy wind generators.
1
The Saudis are relevant only because of the oil upon which they sit. The answer is energy independence for the US and western Europe. Those who oppose nuclear power and fracking unwittingly empower the sponsors of terrorism.
There are risks involved in new energy technologies, but they are dwarfed by the risk of pumping up violent religious zealots with American money.
There are risks involved in new energy technologies, but they are dwarfed by the risk of pumping up violent religious zealots with American money.
7
It is possible that Saudi Arabia sits on a large fraction of the remaining carbon budget to limit climate change to sub catastophic levels.
1
Lefty libs are in an interesting conundrum here. They don't want that nasty oil, because of the carbon.
But they also don't want nuclear power, and certainly NOT coal. That doesn't leave much. You can't run the whole nation on natural gas. Solar and wind power are a joke.
The left fought nuclear power plant construction in the 70s, 80s and 90s like a craved pack of rapid wolverines. Remember the protests? "No nukes"? Meanwhile, FRANCE built plants and is now completely electricity-independent.
But they also don't want nuclear power, and certainly NOT coal. That doesn't leave much. You can't run the whole nation on natural gas. Solar and wind power are a joke.
The left fought nuclear power plant construction in the 70s, 80s and 90s like a craved pack of rapid wolverines. Remember the protests? "No nukes"? Meanwhile, FRANCE built plants and is now completely electricity-independent.
1
People who see this tiny planet as a self-contained space-ship think that the remaining carbon budget should be produced from the most efficient and least environmentally disruptive sources.
And yet I and yet President Obama has been paying court to this monarchy and acting as if they were true allies. He threatens the UK if they don't do as he says but he coddles the Saudis and plies them with cash even though he knows they would slit our collective throats given the chance. Their funding of the murders of 9/11 and their involvement in the exportation of a violent and cruel ideology is more than enough to warrant an end to any ties we have to them but our leaders embrace them. It is disgusting.
They are, without doubt, a insidious enemy and an arrogant one.
They are, without doubt, a insidious enemy and an arrogant one.
20
Sadly, the left cannot wake up to the fact that Obama is not measurably different than Bush. What has he changed, besides social issues like gay marriage or now, unisex bathrooms?
Are you better off today than you were in 2007? (Only if you lucked out and got 100% FREE Medicaid welfare, at taxpayer expense.)
Are you better off today than you were in 2007? (Only if you lucked out and got 100% FREE Medicaid welfare, at taxpayer expense.)
1
Let's connect this with trump's oil policy. His simplistic energy policy is straight from the 1980s and only strengthens our dependence on the Saudi government. Whom does he represent? Us or them?
21
And Clinton's policy is "pay and pay and pay lots more taxes". Sander's policy is "freeze to death in the dark".
2
Will building the Keystone pipeline cause us to be dependent on the Canadians?
1
Glad to see that NYT editorial board acknowledges that Saudi Arabia does all these things while being " sheltered from its enemies by American arms and aid." As many readers already pointed out--the root cause lies with American foreign policy. America is systematically ill-served by the people who run American foreign policy--and this has been the case for a long time. Rest of the world knows how incompetent and ignorant American foreign policy makers and officials are. Are there many journalistic reports on what American embassy officials do in foreign countries, what kind of people they associate themselves with, and what are their competence levels? Last time I went abroad as a US Visiting Fulbright Scholar, all my personal books, that I shipped from New York, were cataloged and shelved in US Embassy Library in that country, and I was told that my books were damaged during the shipment. When I found all my books in the embassy library, nobody even apologized. This is just one example, how incompetent officials represent the US abroad. American media hardly cover the incompetence and ignorance of American ambassadors and embassy officials, while rest of the world laughs at them. In the absence of US military might and veiled the threat of the CIA--most of the American embassies and officials would be laughing stock to the rest of the world. American media must address these issues and make American people aware of such issues.
17
Ambassadorships often go to political donors with the character and depth of Donald Trump.
2
Surprised that NYT did allow your comment.....just show how our politicians are naïve and gullible.....still believing that Shiite countries are our enemies......while ignoring the real facts: Saudi Arabia and Israel....Well, when Congress is controlled by special interest groups........not much will change and our children will pay the price.
Twas ever thus.. Reference "The Ugly American," pub. 1958. Or the Bush "Coalition" Provisional Authority of Iraq, 2003.
America is paying for the extremism, we do want our SUVs, and the Republican party doesn't want clean energy. If not so for the clean air, we could take way the financing of people so intent in our destruction. It is in our power to stop support for this crazy ideology, go green,no war required, side effect, a better America.
23
I agree, and essentially what I was going to say. The observation: " education system that does not encourage critical thinking" sounds like the direction the U.S. has been going and now we have Trump.
5
Oil has been and continues to be one of the dominant influences on America's policies in the Middle East. For many decades, OPEC had us over a barrel, and our presidents, especially the Bushes, became sycophantic toward Saudi leaders in particular, to keep the oil spigot turned on. (See photos of George W. and the Saudi Ambassador at the Ranch and in the Oval Office, looking like happy school chums.) Hopefully, oil is less of a factor in America's foreign policies now, but I wouldn't bet on it.
31
My father led a large contingent of McDonnell-Douglas employees to Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s, and lived there, with my mom, for a couple of years. That crew was assigned to teach the Saudis how to maintain the substantial fleet of F-15 fighter planes (The Eagle) that the government purchased from the US. The F-15 is one of the most beautifully designed and effective ... and expensive ... fighters ever made. The Saudis bought a load of them.
Mom loved to travel and to shop. She purchased plenty of glassware with her friends at the souks, and a few golden chains. I've got a couple of them in the safe deposit box.
Golden chains.
Yes, the Saudis promulgate radical Islam, but we promulgate militarism, the sale of fighters, and profit. Whose more to blame?
Remember that old phrase, the "military-industrial complex"? I'd be curious to know whether the US is still selling expensive military equipment to Sunni nations in the Middle East.
(PS. I love and miss my dad. The money he made in Saudi Arabia paid off my college debts.)
Mom loved to travel and to shop. She purchased plenty of glassware with her friends at the souks, and a few golden chains. I've got a couple of them in the safe deposit box.
Golden chains.
Yes, the Saudis promulgate radical Islam, but we promulgate militarism, the sale of fighters, and profit. Whose more to blame?
Remember that old phrase, the "military-industrial complex"? I'd be curious to know whether the US is still selling expensive military equipment to Sunni nations in the Middle East.
(PS. I love and miss my dad. The money he made in Saudi Arabia paid off my college debts.)
136
Try eating without profit. The Saudi's have their oil.
1
Deborah - Ithaca
There are a lot of us relatively affluent, well-educated, well-traveled who have fond memories of the countries where we lived & our parents worked.
But we only met fellow affluent, well-educated, well-traveled "people like us".
We probably didn't meet any "poor" people (except maids, nurses, gardeners) to whom ISIS might have had more appeal.
There are a lot of us relatively affluent, well-educated, well-traveled who have fond memories of the countries where we lived & our parents worked.
But we only met fellow affluent, well-educated, well-traveled "people like us".
We probably didn't meet any "poor" people (except maids, nurses, gardeners) to whom ISIS might have had more appeal.
2
(PS. I love and miss my dad. The money he made in Saudi Arabia paid off my college debts.) - on the backs of the Saudi women, common people, surrounding Arabs, and the world economy.
3
The USA have always had an unfortunate talent for choosing unreliable partners. Saddam Hussein was coddled and supported during his war with Iran, then dropped like a hot potato. In Afghanistan, the Taliban got clandestine support to get rid of the Russian forces. In both examples, further developments have left the Near East in a chaos that will take decades to reorganize itself into governments wrth the name. Oh, yes, and the erstwhile supported by the USA were corrupt, leaking the aide they got to their relatives and supporters. Or after the Second World war and subsequent wars: divided countries: Vietnam, Korea, Germany... of these three, only Germany has become one again.
It would be a good idea to stop mixing up in other countries' affairs and, above all, choose allies more wisely.
It would be a good idea to stop mixing up in other countries' affairs and, above all, choose allies more wisely.
154
It seems the US chooses allies like they choose which governments they will overthrow, the only criteria used is what side is the money on. From the Shah to the Somossa's in Nicaragua, the many others and of course, the leaders in Saudi Arabia.
They have the cheap oil, there is no possibility of choosing better allies. Simple as that.
In a sense, "they" are choosing "their" allies wisely -- whoever serves particular interests for the moment. Belief in the slogan "What is good for GM (or other major corporations/banks) is good for America" is what keeps the US population puzzled at why these seemingly irrational decisions are made. They are not irrational. They serve certain interests. Just not ours.........or the unfortunate victims overseas.
I write this from the perspective of having worked in Saudi Arabia for the last 5 years.
It is very easy to say, "Saudi Arabia is doing this or that", as if the entire country of almost 29 million people is one great homogeneous mass. However what people write about what "Saudi Arabia is doing" doesn't seem to match up with what I see.
I wish that features like yours would be more specific about WHO is behind this, specific organizations and individuals, and HOW they accomplish it.
Though not liberal by any Western Standard the late King Abdullah, his successor King Salman and the deputy Crown Prince are far less supportive of narrow minded religious views. They've taken consistent action to chip away at the power of the Mutawwa (religious police) and have opened up scientific advanced education to the populace, both by creating new universities, bringing in top quality academics from around the world, and by funding students to study abroad.
My Saudi colleagues are educated business people and engineers, all of whom have lived at least part of their lives outside the Kingdom. Though they pray and visit Mecca, as is expected of them, they are quick to wear western style clothes when in the privacy of their homes or traveling abroad.
Yes, there is still a strongly religious portion of the population, mostly less educated, and a religious elite that tells them what to think.
Are these the people who are funding and promoting extremism?
More detail please!
It is very easy to say, "Saudi Arabia is doing this or that", as if the entire country of almost 29 million people is one great homogeneous mass. However what people write about what "Saudi Arabia is doing" doesn't seem to match up with what I see.
I wish that features like yours would be more specific about WHO is behind this, specific organizations and individuals, and HOW they accomplish it.
Though not liberal by any Western Standard the late King Abdullah, his successor King Salman and the deputy Crown Prince are far less supportive of narrow minded religious views. They've taken consistent action to chip away at the power of the Mutawwa (religious police) and have opened up scientific advanced education to the populace, both by creating new universities, bringing in top quality academics from around the world, and by funding students to study abroad.
My Saudi colleagues are educated business people and engineers, all of whom have lived at least part of their lives outside the Kingdom. Though they pray and visit Mecca, as is expected of them, they are quick to wear western style clothes when in the privacy of their homes or traveling abroad.
Yes, there is still a strongly religious portion of the population, mostly less educated, and a religious elite that tells them what to think.
Are these the people who are funding and promoting extremism?
More detail please!
148
Seriously, you need more details?
Start here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/15/opinion/nicholas-kristof-an-islamic-re...
Start here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/15/opinion/nicholas-kristof-an-islamic-re...
1
Who cares, Saudi Arabia is an oppressive dictatorship and not our ally in any way.
"chip away at the power of the Mutawwa (religious police)"? Seems to me that if you're a king, you end things when you want them ended. You don't chip away at anything.
2
Once again we see that disaffected youth are a danger to our stable oil economy. With few fast food service jobs, with no opiate scourge to keep them at home, youth turn to radical religion as their hope of glory. Exploited and enticed by an American supported middle ages punishing regime, nearly three hundred and twenty of them have boarded planes to civil war torn quagmire regions reeling from American wars of adventure. Safe from newly isolationist American public opinion and in no danger of airport pat downs and delays, they die, are shipped home to reside in the same fallow fields they dropped their hoes in months before while the internet creates rumors of great futures, safe in the knowledge that the global elite spend more money monitoring the distribution of pot which threatens the liquor industry than they spend on job training. Hoping against hope for shovel ready development projects building fast food restaurants, they enter, place their order and while waiting for their number to be called, read a pamphlet enticing them to fight in another country and the whole cycle is repeated. Will they never learn to follow NCAA basketball like illiterate freshmen enticed prematurely to the pros?
1
KOSOVO As in other countries in the communist Soviet block, was home to different ethnic groups whose religious affiliation and activities were discouraged, if not brutally persecuted in the USSR. The secularization of the societies in those countries, interestingly, was also found in Western Europe, where many became disillusioned about the strictures of organized religion. There has and will always been conflict among church and state. I think it is constructive that in Kosovo the intrusion of the Saudis in the form of money. What will it take for the Saudis to realize that domestic oppression with instigating violence abroad are two sides of the same coin. The Sauds are playing with fire and will ultimately be burnt, especially as they lose their economic advantage since the world is going to be moving rapidly toward sustainable energy. If they wanted to maintain their influence they would build solar farms at home and abroad. But that doesn't fit in with their explosive mixture of highly punitive religious practices that morph into nations destabilized by their dangerous attempt to spread their cult of chaos, murder and repression masquerading as religious purity. The very name of the Saudi religion, Islam, comes from the same root the word for peace, Sala'am. Say what the wish, the Saudis cannot prevail by promoting chaoss, using extremist religious doctrine as their justification. The Saudis will know they've been playing with fire when everything blows up.
1
Kosovo was never part of the USSR. check your geography.
The Editorial Board writes: "Since 2014, there have been 20 terrorist attacks in the kingdom, many staged by ISIS." True, before 2014, the attacks were mainly staged by Al Qaeda terrorists. Between 2007 and 2012 it was relatively quiet. There were multiple attacks launched in 2015, but mainly on targets in Shia strongholds. ISIS aimed to stoke sectarian violence, because it knows that Saudi authorities do little to protect their Shia minority.
The Saudis and the Gulf Sunnis have so far done nothing to help resettle the Syrian refugees, triggering an influx to Europe. Many Europeans believe it is the intention of the Sunni Arabs to promote an encroaching Islamisation of their continent.
The Saudis and the Gulf Sunnis have so far done nothing to help resettle the Syrian refugees, triggering an influx to Europe. Many Europeans believe it is the intention of the Sunni Arabs to promote an encroaching Islamisation of their continent.
4
The Saudis are our ally because of their oil. Oversimplification, But essentially true. We now have domestically the ability to produce enough oil, coal and natural gas to satisfy our needs if fraking and other technologically advanced methods were allowed to proceed. The federal government should be encouraging domestic fossil fuel production; instead it discourages it, relying on some pie in the sky future day when fossil fuels will not be needed. In the meantime, Jihad spreads. Ridiculous. If we become energy independent, we can tell the Saudis to go pound sand.
1
I have written about this several times and the people who screen thse posts have never actually allowed them up. But, I find it highly negligent of the nytimes to write about Saudi Arabia spreading an extremist religion that breeds terrorism while failing to mention the millions of dollars the clinton foundation has received from this government while she was secretary of state. If the goldman sachs speeches were news, the amount of money here dwarfs that. It raises a justified concern that a president Clinton will not deal with Saudi arabia in the manner she would otherwise, and that this large sum will influence her stance with the country. The second major concern is lack of judgement just taking the money while sec of state knowing they have promoted extremism. The NYtimes justifies a clinton presidency based upon her experience, but then chooses to avoid making a connection between her and the negative effects of her policies. It seems the nytimes is afraid the American public will realize our former secretary of state took millions while in office from a country promoting extremism. I'm sorry, but that is huge news, and worthy of front page exposure. Not something to be avoided even if it reflects poorly on your chosen candidate. It very well may be the case she would have pushed the Suadi's harder on this issue if it wasn't for the money back then
8
wow surprised that went up. " In Honduras, in particular, Hillary Clinton as Obama’s secretary of state was instrumental in legitimizing the coup’s subsequent death-squad regime." http://www.thenation.com/article/still-selling-neoliberal-unicorns-us-ap... As ypu see I can't reconcile the clinon you advocate as someone supporting women their entire career, and human rights advocate with the actual outcomes of her polices. I don't mean this to be an attack on clinton, I do mean it to be an attack on the journalism happening at the nytimes right now. I find it bizarre that I can make these easy connection while your editorial writer there is no justified reason anyone couldn't or shouldn't back clinton. Or that it's based upon sexism. But this is just another example of the negative effects of her positions. There are many alone with the saudi money. It's insulting to be a compassionate, caring, empathetic human being and get slandered as being the exact opposite by the editoral staff here
1
While Saudi Arabia is scarcely without guilt--I myself saw a Wahhabi imam take over a traditional Sufi center to run an extremist school with students incongruously dressed like Pakistanis--the fact is that America and the Europeans share much blame for what has happened in Kosovo. They insisted on an unworkable governmental system in which Serbs, a tiny minority deeply involved in an attempted genocide, retained an effective veto within the Kosovo government. The mineral-rich north was given to the Serbs, depriving Kosovo its largest economic asset. Many of the Serbs now living in Kosovo were actually refugees from Croatia resettled in Kosovo by the Serbian government and subsidized by Serbia. They also include well-known participants in the 1999 attempted genocide. Other "Serbian" towns are virtually empty with their "citizens" working in Serbia proper. The Serbian state then continued to insist that Kosovo was part of Serbia and, with Russian support, blocked Kosovo from the kind of integration into the European system that would have allowed economic development. (An example: Serbia falsely reported mad cow disease in Kosovo.) The result was economic and political stagnation, massive unemployment, with youth unemployment over 50%. It's scarcely surprising then that overwhelmingly pro-American Kosovars should begin turning elsewhere when well-funded Wahhabi groups show up.
For half a century this relatively small and insignificant Middle Eastern nation has exercised undue influence on the world stage for two reasons: first, it held the world's largest stockpile of oil during a time when the entire world ran on oil. Second, the Saudis made a pact with the US government back in the '70's whereby they would sell oil only for US dollars. This strategic agreement was paramount in securing the financial and military support of the world's only remaining superpower. Since then they have enjoyed carte blanche in regard to domestic affairs and foreign policy.
But the world is changing. Fossil fuels are no longer the gold standard of the world's economy, and American military and economic might is being challenged by Russia and China. In addition, the Saudis are suffering regional challenges from a newly resurgent Iran and a militarily significant Egypt.
The only means they have of maintaining regional and global influence is the way the Roman Empire continued its domination of the world long past its alleged "fall": by switching from military or economic might to religion and ideology as tools for domination.
It's a tried & true formula.
But the world is changing. Fossil fuels are no longer the gold standard of the world's economy, and American military and economic might is being challenged by Russia and China. In addition, the Saudis are suffering regional challenges from a newly resurgent Iran and a militarily significant Egypt.
The only means they have of maintaining regional and global influence is the way the Roman Empire continued its domination of the world long past its alleged "fall": by switching from military or economic might to religion and ideology as tools for domination.
It's a tried & true formula.
1
The United States must awaken to its true problems in the Middle East; one is Saudi Arabia and the other is Israel.
Both countries are working at cross purposes to the best interest of the United States, and this anti-U.S. effort is best seen in the strong ties between Israel and Saudi Arabia (think the pernicious efforts of Netanyahu and Saudi Arabia with respect to recent U.S.-Iran negotiations).
Both nations are undermining the Middle East policy of the United States. President Obama and Secretary Kerry seem to recognize the injurious nature of the Netanyahu-Saudi Arabia axis on United States foreign policy.
Both countries are working at cross purposes to the best interest of the United States, and this anti-U.S. effort is best seen in the strong ties between Israel and Saudi Arabia (think the pernicious efforts of Netanyahu and Saudi Arabia with respect to recent U.S.-Iran negotiations).
Both nations are undermining the Middle East policy of the United States. President Obama and Secretary Kerry seem to recognize the injurious nature of the Netanyahu-Saudi Arabia axis on United States foreign policy.
24
Unfortunately, unlike Obama and Kerry, Hillary Clinton takes a ton of money from the evil Saudis
4
All the more reason to believe the Obama Administration's current policy toward Saudis - and Iran and Israel for that matter - is a correct one.
Before President Obama, and even he, every recent POTUS has bended over backward to help the so-called ally in the Middle East but what did the U.S. get in return? Demands and ungratefulness. With Iran, while its rhetoric is unpleasant, at least it has its reason to gripe because of the CIA relationship with the late Shah of Iran. But whether the U.S. decides to publish the redacted portion of the 911 report, it is common knowledge that the Saudis, at least the wealthy Saudis with a tacit approval of their government, have been funding the Wahhabis. And average U.S. citizens mustn't forget what the current Israel PM did to the last U.S. election cycle even though Mr Obama did a lot, probably more than his predecessors, in Israel's defense.
While the Saudi oil policy is probably aiming at Russia, one reason it has been pumping so much oil below social cost is to stop the U.S. fracking industry. To some anti-fracking people here in the U.S., maybe it is a good thing; but rest assured the Saudis' intention is not the same. With ally like these, and with the U.S. efforts in ending the Kosovo conflict, the U.S. really doesn't need any enemies!
Before President Obama, and even he, every recent POTUS has bended over backward to help the so-called ally in the Middle East but what did the U.S. get in return? Demands and ungratefulness. With Iran, while its rhetoric is unpleasant, at least it has its reason to gripe because of the CIA relationship with the late Shah of Iran. But whether the U.S. decides to publish the redacted portion of the 911 report, it is common knowledge that the Saudis, at least the wealthy Saudis with a tacit approval of their government, have been funding the Wahhabis. And average U.S. citizens mustn't forget what the current Israel PM did to the last U.S. election cycle even though Mr Obama did a lot, probably more than his predecessors, in Israel's defense.
While the Saudi oil policy is probably aiming at Russia, one reason it has been pumping so much oil below social cost is to stop the U.S. fracking industry. To some anti-fracking people here in the U.S., maybe it is a good thing; but rest assured the Saudis' intention is not the same. With ally like these, and with the U.S. efforts in ending the Kosovo conflict, the U.S. really doesn't need any enemies!
36
Obama did not bend over backwards, he had bowed before the Saudi King.
2
The Obama administration's policy toward the Saudis is the correct one? You have got to be kidding. While th Saudis are rolling in cash we give them billions! He flies to Saudi Arabia to morn their theocratic king while the bodies of the Charlie Hebdo attack are ignored by his administration. Islamic violence is excused and explained. I see nothing in his policies on the ME of which to approve.
We must disentangle ourselves from Saudi Aravia and the rest. We must come home and rebuild our country and let the Middle East replace its only problems with no money or arms from us.
Come home America.
We must disentangle ourselves from Saudi Aravia and the rest. We must come home and rebuild our country and let the Middle East replace its only problems with no money or arms from us.
Come home America.
2
This is a powerful and important editorial.
It is long overdue, and offers only an instance of the little noticed influence of the Saudi Wahhabi faction that spreads jihad worldwide; yet it clearly exposes the way jihad is promulgated, and sheds some light on the internal Saudi amalgam of Wahhabi extremist Islamic religion and the royal ruling family.
I hope the NY Times will devote adequate resources to further exposing the systemic influence this extremist Islamic faction's attempts to plant their ideology in mosques everywhere. One can suspect that its propaganda and monetary support, together with the ruthlessness with which it treats Muslims who are more moderate, may account for the seeming lack of internal Muslim opposition, even in open societies like the US.
The Wahhabi strategy is having considerable success, as demonstrated by the spread of ISIS. It needs to be exposed if it is to be effectively countered.
I am sorry that the normal invitation to email copies of editorials is absent from this article. it deserves wide circulation.
It is long overdue, and offers only an instance of the little noticed influence of the Saudi Wahhabi faction that spreads jihad worldwide; yet it clearly exposes the way jihad is promulgated, and sheds some light on the internal Saudi amalgam of Wahhabi extremist Islamic religion and the royal ruling family.
I hope the NY Times will devote adequate resources to further exposing the systemic influence this extremist Islamic faction's attempts to plant their ideology in mosques everywhere. One can suspect that its propaganda and monetary support, together with the ruthlessness with which it treats Muslims who are more moderate, may account for the seeming lack of internal Muslim opposition, even in open societies like the US.
The Wahhabi strategy is having considerable success, as demonstrated by the spread of ISIS. It needs to be exposed if it is to be effectively countered.
I am sorry that the normal invitation to email copies of editorials is absent from this article. it deserves wide circulation.
26
NATO had no business helping breakup Serbia. Europe is now paying for this mistake.
6
Exactly right !!
1
It would be very interesting to see the NYTimes investigate similar Saudi funding of schools, kindergartens, mosques led by radical imams and even political elections in the Western world in order to promote their extreme form of Islam and to prepare future generations of immigrants to Europe, the USA, and Australia for the broad influx of Islamist culture and politics that has already started. In Austria for instance, the Viennese education department had to close several Muslim kindergartens in 2015, because they were not conforming to traditional Austrian guidelines, but instead indoctrinated the Muslim children in their care with exclusively Muslim ideology and put the madrassa-like daily studies of the Qur'an above all other education goals. It was discovered that the children were actually taught to regard Western culture as bad and to reject it. It is also no secret that the radical imams in London and Denmark and Belgium, who were allowed for years to use hate speech against their host countries' secular ways, were getting lots of money from the Saudis to establish themselves in foreign countries. And the American taxpayers, among others, have been unknowingly supporting the gradual creeping and spreading of Islamist ideas into the West.
23
The Ottomans had almost completely stamped out Wahhabism by the early 20th century. Then Ibn Saud made a deal with the Wahhabist clerics to make their hateful, violent, murderous religious sect the state religion of Saudi Arabia if in return those clerics would support the Saudi state. They did and have and the evil bargain between those two groups was never a secret. Yet it was ignored in the West.
Then we got the spectacle of all of our elected leaders wringing their hands and shaking their fists on and after 9-11 about the terrorists who carried out those attacks. Yes, those politicians were shocked, SHOCKED!, that those terrorists did so. No mention of the Saudi's though. No condemnations of them, no sir. Instead we got Bush holding the blood drenched hand of crown prince Abdullah even though the Saudi's role in sponsoring and spreading the Wahhabist sect, the sect that provided the encouragement, justification, motivation and rationale for those terrorists to carry out those attacks, was very well known.
Saudi Arabia is a cancer on the world. The time is long past due for the world to remedy that sickness.
Then we got the spectacle of all of our elected leaders wringing their hands and shaking their fists on and after 9-11 about the terrorists who carried out those attacks. Yes, those politicians were shocked, SHOCKED!, that those terrorists did so. No mention of the Saudi's though. No condemnations of them, no sir. Instead we got Bush holding the blood drenched hand of crown prince Abdullah even though the Saudi's role in sponsoring and spreading the Wahhabist sect, the sect that provided the encouragement, justification, motivation and rationale for those terrorists to carry out those attacks, was very well known.
Saudi Arabia is a cancer on the world. The time is long past due for the world to remedy that sickness.
122
Sooner or later the rest of the world will nuke Saudi Arabia into glass.
Will we ever know if the Bush family was complicit or simply naive or greedy through their Saudi ties? The US wars against Iraq, both under Bush presidents with Saudi encouragement and support. The Cheney "energy plan." The uncomfortably close friendship between an American president and his family and the royal family of this strange country with its extremism and social values anathema to everything Americans holler about. Their citizens gave us 9-11! I don't know why we're still on speaking terms with the Saudis and yet they are listed as allies?
35
There is a program by the government of Saudi Arabia to pay hospitals in Europe and the US for the training of their physicians. There are medical residency training programs in the US and Europe, where most or all foreigners are Saudis. This is not skill or merit based but only due to the fact the kingdom pays for their salaries (and probably some more $ to the hospital). Call it what you want.
5
I am very glad to see the Editorial Board reiterating this issue so overtly. The article by Carlotta Gall is one of best articles published recently in the NYT.
There is also a good article in Der Spiegel on Bosnia describing the same type
of problems http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/islamic-state-presence-in-bos....
But, I would like to suggest a minor change to the title of the article "The World Reaps what the Saudis Sow and the World ignored for so long."
There is also a good article in Der Spiegel on Bosnia describing the same type
of problems http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/islamic-state-presence-in-bos....
But, I would like to suggest a minor change to the title of the article "The World Reaps what the Saudis Sow and the World ignored for so long."
13
Saudi leaders have the ability to hypnotize our presidents, again and again. Remember the photos of Bush kissing a classically sinister-looking Saudi? Why didn't that become an icon of our willing corruption, why wasn't that repeated endlessly in the media?
32
I wouldn't read too much into this. Arab men great friends with a kiss on the cheek or both cheeks.
The Saudis bailed out George Bush's busted oil bidness. He owed them big time. All the Bushes owe the Saudis.
What more foolish and self-defeating policy could one have than sending huge amounts of war materials to Saudi Arabia and its allies at the same time as Saudi Arabia is spending billions to set up religious schools all around the world where students are taught to support the most extreme forms of Moslem teachings. Out of these schools come huge numbers of extremist fighters who engage in fighting and killing our troops and threatening our country. And no one in Congress apparently questions and challenges this "shooting-ourselves-in-the-body" approach to fighting terrorism. What goes on behind the diplomatic curtain that we should all know about?
36
Let's ask Tony Podesta , He's the lobbyist for Saudi Arabia. Yes, that Tony Posesta. And we wonder why Obama does what he does. Follow the money!
Foreign governments and foreign companies should not be permitted to hire lobbyists! Lobbyists who work for these governments are foreign agents and should be under tight scrutiny at all times. I sick of the idea that foreign governments have better access to our policiy makers that our citizens. And you can tell that their influence is great. What else would explain policies that so anti our own best interests?
Foreign governments and foreign companies should not be permitted to hire lobbyists! Lobbyists who work for these governments are foreign agents and should be under tight scrutiny at all times. I sick of the idea that foreign governments have better access to our policiy makers that our citizens. And you can tell that their influence is great. What else would explain policies that so anti our own best interests?
1
We must be careful not to confuse the Source of Wahhabi (Saudi Arabia) with the Source of Wasabi Sauce (Japan).
Wahabbi is an extreme creed of Islamic belief following Sharia Law, whilst
Wasabi is a paste that blends well with Sushi Cuisine and has an extreme tang similar to a hot Mustard.
One Destabilizes the Planet, whilst the other can Destabilize the Palate.
Care should be taken to not mistake one for the other.
Wahabbi is an extreme creed of Islamic belief following Sharia Law, whilst
Wasabi is a paste that blends well with Sushi Cuisine and has an extreme tang similar to a hot Mustard.
One Destabilizes the Planet, whilst the other can Destabilize the Palate.
Care should be taken to not mistake one for the other.
20
Thank you ... it's good to know the difference! lol
So, remind me again why the US considers the Saudis allies, why the US supports them militarily, or, generally put up with them at all.
It would seem to me that the Law of Diminishing Returns kicked in a long time ago...
It would seem to me that the Law of Diminishing Returns kicked in a long time ago...
76
Once a welfare program is started by the US Government, it never ends....it only grows larger. Solutions are the enemy of that bunch.
Kosovo has been a failed state for some time. It mattered not that they are an exporter of terrorists.
1
Although the U.S. saved Kosovo and Bosnia and heavily bombed Serbia, there have been occasional Islamic terror strikes and threats by Kosovors and Bosnians against Americans, but none by Serbians.
"The Sunni Arab states still do not seem to understand the extent to which extreme versions of Islam imperil them as well."
Exactly.
Exactly.
4
saudi Arabia bears a relationship to th west analogous in th extreme to that which a heroin dealer bears to his customers
2
So if the Saudis are trouble-makers why is the Obama Administration threatening to veto the bill recently passed by Congress permitting Saudi Arabia to be sued civilly for its part in 9/11?
8
Cause the Saudis have said that they will dump $750 billion in US bonds on the market, with the intent of driving the US back into recession/depression - something the GOP has no scruples about, they don't care if the people of the US starve and lose their homes and jobs. Having led us out of the Bush Recession, Obama does not want hundreds of millions of Americans back on the breadline and waiting on line for handouts from charity again - the Saudis did plan and pay for 9/11. Time to impose sanctions on them, but the civil suits will not help the average American keep their job or home. Think like a lawyer, think like a Constitutional scholar, and you will understand Obama's reasoning.
1
If The Times feels this way - which is correct - than why did they endorse Hillary, when the Clintons have received so much cash/bribes from the Arab State that practice and sponsor international Wahhabism?
24
Where is your proof? And why not bring up how Sanders has been bought by big oil and big dumping - or have you conveniently forgotten about the town in Texas that he voted to receive large amounts of toxic waste from the oil industry - and that Mrs. Sanders very conveniently sits on the "board" of that oil company? Why leave out the scandals of the Sanders - is it because you are being paid by them?
1
Remember when if you were a communist, (a proponent of a philosophy that we found repugnant), you were barred from entering the USA?
12
Communism wasn't a religion. Russian leaders like Lenin and Stalin acted like religious leaders even though they proclaimed they were atheists.
The Republicans attack President Obama for his diplomacy with Iran and Cuba, yet Saudi Arabia is more troubling than either. Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country, more severely so than Iran, is a worldwide sponsor of fanatical madrasahs, and is behind the global terrorism that both spawn. Saudi Arabia's lack of democratic principles and human rights are worse than in Cuba, considering its fondness for executions and dismemberment, and the complete lack of legal rights for females, children and adult alike.
If the GOP wants to sound the alarm about another country, they should look to the Saudis, our supposed national ally - and personal friends of the Bushes.
If the GOP wants to sound the alarm about another country, they should look to the Saudis, our supposed national ally - and personal friends of the Bushes.
17
This editorial goes to almost laughable lengths to avoid stating anything remotely critical of Islam itself. The US is tripping all over itself to tolerate the intolerance of Islam and instead prefers to pretend that certain imams are "radical". Wake up, read the Quran, learn about what daily life is like for a woman, gay or lesbian, Christian or Jew in any Muslim majority nation. Instead we prefer to blame Saudi Arabia and therefore our own government with its collusion and sidestep any inquiry as to why Muslims are blowing each other up and attempting to establish a religiously mandated caliphate. They are oppressed brown people and we caused their problems and Islam is a religion of peace, never mind the jihad behind the curtain!
19
While our "Christian" ancestors were burning heretics and Jews, Muslim rulers were promoting science and medicine and employing Jewish physicians. Don't tar all Muslims with a brush soiled in Wahhabi filth.
1
Saudi Arabia is not our friend and we should stop treating them as one. It's as simple as that. We don't need their oil anymore, and they can't afford the income loss of another embargo anyway, so they have no leverage over us. Time to cut ourselves loose from this medieval regime that is sowing medieval religious barbarism all across the Islamic world. Instead of coddling them, we should be hitting them with sanctions to make them stop funding the seeds of terrorism.
16
The new Persian Empire is by far the greater threat thanks to Obama
Wait a minute - wasn't there a recent article in the NY Times about Saudi Arabia running out of money, and having to end the "cushy" jobs for its well-connected men - ah yes, that article ran on February 17 2016. Can it be that the royal family is deliberately sowing dissent and trouble in other countries to draw their own population's attention away from the impending economic disaster looming, what with a huge population of children in Saudi Arabia, who will want those cushy jobs soon? Is this the same as Reagan invading Grenada, and Thatcher going to war with Argentina (???) - deliberate deflection from crises at home to invented crises abroad, to keep the citizens' attention elsewhere? It worked for Reagan and Thatcher - both got re-elected and continued to serve those who owned them rather than their countries. Why shouldn't the same warmongering work for the Saudis - who have funded terrorism around the world - why not use the rest of the world to prop up an incompetent leader, same as Reagan and Thatcher? And seeing as they have gotten off scott-free for 9/11 - when will the Saudi's ever really be brought to justice? Anybody know?
7
I will remind fellow readers of the video (easily accessed) of GW Bush holding hands with the Saudi Crown Prince as they walk through Paradise Garden - true love, that. Of course, the Bush family's personal financial relationship with the Saudis has been a source of concern, but not enough to inspire a congressional investigation of any depth for some reason (but easy to deduce).
The Bush hunta is no longer in direct power, but the machinations and treachery remain largely in the same strategic positions, and our relationships in the middle east consist exclusively of bribing our enemies (Pakistan) and our 'friends' (Israel) in equal measure. Insane, utterly insane...
What do we get in return? Not a safer United States - that has been well proved. But that will not stop both parties in congress from pouring hundreds of billions of our tax dollars into the those sinkholes. Meanwhile, we can't find enough money to pay school teachers in the U.S. decent salaries or add dental care into the social security equation.
The Bush hunta is no longer in direct power, but the machinations and treachery remain largely in the same strategic positions, and our relationships in the middle east consist exclusively of bribing our enemies (Pakistan) and our 'friends' (Israel) in equal measure. Insane, utterly insane...
What do we get in return? Not a safer United States - that has been well proved. But that will not stop both parties in congress from pouring hundreds of billions of our tax dollars into the those sinkholes. Meanwhile, we can't find enough money to pay school teachers in the U.S. decent salaries or add dental care into the social security equation.
23
You as a person or a nation cannot be an ally of anyone or any country that stands by or promotes extremist views, hate, murder, deceit, lying, or undermines the integrity of another human being or country. That is why the United States entered the war with England against the government of Germany who was killing not only Jews, but gays, mentally ill people, and any one who stood in their way. There is not a middle ground. Otherwise, you become a liar one day and a friend the next. It doesn't work that way for those few or those countries who have stood up against pure evil.
3
Is Saudi Arabia an enemy of the United States of America? It sure seems that way to me. Inciting and paying murderers to kill us is a distinctly unfriendly act.
23
Saudi Arabia doesn't need to export takfirism, Wahhabism, salafism, shariah law, or any of the other trappings of extremist Islam; all the Saudis have to do is wait for the Muslim world to come to them. After all, Saudi is the home of Mecca and Medina, the holiest sites in Islam. All Muslims must pray towards Mecca every day. And all Muslims must make the hajj, must travel to Mecca and visit the holy sites, where they will hear the takfirism, and all the other ruthless "-isms" that Saudi clerics teach. Saudi Arabia is to Islam what the Vatican is to Catholicism. As long as this jihadist religion dominates in Saudi, it will be a major force throughout the Muslim world.
5
In West Africa, Muslims of the moderate Sufi persuasion (the majority, absent extremists like Boko Haram) pray toward the holy city of Touba, in Senegal. I've helped African Muslims get properly oriented for prayer, right next to our Christmas tree. I thought the juxtaposition charming and hopeful.
Kudos to the NYT! The duplicous Saudis should be exposed with their buddies the Bushes. Hopefully the 29 pages of the 911 commission will be released un-redacted. If the western world can get on an alternative energy source, the Middle east will be a black hole cut off from the rest of the world, economically as well as ideologically. Time is on their side, we need to do whatever is necessary to snuff out the venomous Wahhabism.. And if Bush knew all along that Saudis were responsible for 911, why wouldn't he be brought before the Hague? He lit the wick for WWIII for no reason than Iraq's oil.
17
While oil certainly was a consideration, I do not believe oil was the primary reason for our actions against Iraq/Saddam in 2003.
So why did Bill Clinton help Kosovo against the Serbs? The US should have stayed out of it and let Serbia do it's thing. Nothing is more evil than Islam except Saudi Islam.
1
An excellent NYT editorial for a change. I would go further: US and EU should declare Wahhabism a terrorist religion and ban all Wahhabi Muslims from entering their territory. So not all Muslims, like Trump said, just Wahhabi Muslims. They are the radicals. Ban all madras, religious scholarships and imans' trainings they sponsor; ban all and any Saudi Arabian sponsored mosques and Islamic centers that teach wahhabi in EU and USA, and even in Pakistan, Africa, etc.
Sadly not only Bush had been corrupt by the Saudis. Bill Clinton had received a lot of money from Saudis for his foundation, and in speeches, and Secretary Hillary Clinton promptly followed up, like after all donations and Bill's paid speeches (READ the book CLINTON CASH) with policies lobbied by Saudis.
The separatist war in Kosovo during Bill Clinton Presidency had been encouraged by the Saudis, who wanted a Muslim state in the heart of Europe. The war in Iraq served the same Saudis who wanted to destroy the non-religious regime of Saddam Hussein; for the same Sunni religious dominance (that they are now infecting with Wahhabism) they also try to goad USA in Syria and Iran wars as well.
US congressmen and officials and US foundations and super packs should be banned from receiving a cent from Saudis in any shape or form. Hillary, the champion of women supposedly, will never do this, although Wahhabism treats women like slaves. Only Trump or Bernie would tackle this.
Sadly not only Bush had been corrupt by the Saudis. Bill Clinton had received a lot of money from Saudis for his foundation, and in speeches, and Secretary Hillary Clinton promptly followed up, like after all donations and Bill's paid speeches (READ the book CLINTON CASH) with policies lobbied by Saudis.
The separatist war in Kosovo during Bill Clinton Presidency had been encouraged by the Saudis, who wanted a Muslim state in the heart of Europe. The war in Iraq served the same Saudis who wanted to destroy the non-religious regime of Saddam Hussein; for the same Sunni religious dominance (that they are now infecting with Wahhabism) they also try to goad USA in Syria and Iran wars as well.
US congressmen and officials and US foundations and super packs should be banned from receiving a cent from Saudis in any shape or form. Hillary, the champion of women supposedly, will never do this, although Wahhabism treats women like slaves. Only Trump or Bernie would tackle this.
15
Yes indeed, the chickens are coming home to roost for the Saudi royal family, just as they've come home to roost for another purveyor of hatred, the Republican party.
Hatred begets hatred. This should be a warning for those on the far left in this country who feast daily on a diet of hatred.
Hatred begets hatred. This should be a warning for those on the far left in this country who feast daily on a diet of hatred.
49
Sure, compare apples and oranges, why not...
You mean that the far left are victims of hatred spewed by Faux News and Rush.
1
“If God hates all the same people you hate you can be assured that you have created him in your own image.” –Anne Lemott
Islam is a political movement that happens to have a significant religious component it uses to control those it has dominion over. From the very beginning that system used terror, violence, raiding, theft, deceit & conquest to expand itself. The religion was just a compact whereby one agreed to submit without fighting & perhaps join in to help expand the system. Almost any biography of Mohammed, including the authorized traditional Islamic accounts makes plane that he was mostly likely a psychopath; one of the most intrinsic characteristics of which is a fear of domination (by other psychopaths) which impels the only thing psychopaths do value: domination of others. The name of the religion, submission/surrender, is the first tell. Yes the implication is that one submit & surrender to God, but the next implication, as Anne Lemott‘s quote suggests is that Islam & its God are simply the alter-egos of Mohammed.
The plunder & expansion ethos went right on until 1816 when the British navy over Barbary pirates & European hegemony ended it. Cut off from other people‘s $, Islam for the 1st time in 1200 years became moribund. The emergence petroleum in the global economy since 1950 essentially has restored Islam‘s dynamism: it approximates the effect of plunder via different means. They don‘t create wealth, they take it from those that do & expansion too is back.
Islam is a political movement that happens to have a significant religious component it uses to control those it has dominion over. From the very beginning that system used terror, violence, raiding, theft, deceit & conquest to expand itself. The religion was just a compact whereby one agreed to submit without fighting & perhaps join in to help expand the system. Almost any biography of Mohammed, including the authorized traditional Islamic accounts makes plane that he was mostly likely a psychopath; one of the most intrinsic characteristics of which is a fear of domination (by other psychopaths) which impels the only thing psychopaths do value: domination of others. The name of the religion, submission/surrender, is the first tell. Yes the implication is that one submit & surrender to God, but the next implication, as Anne Lemott‘s quote suggests is that Islam & its God are simply the alter-egos of Mohammed.
The plunder & expansion ethos went right on until 1816 when the British navy over Barbary pirates & European hegemony ended it. Cut off from other people‘s $, Islam for the 1st time in 1200 years became moribund. The emergence petroleum in the global economy since 1950 essentially has restored Islam‘s dynamism: it approximates the effect of plunder via different means. They don‘t create wealth, they take it from those that do & expansion too is back.
48
In Karen Armstrong's very useful 'A Short History of Islam', early Muslim expansionism is explained in this way as I recall: since the Koran instructs Muslims to respect and help members of their community (eventually that 'umma' becoming a nation-state), they needed to fund it by expanding into their non-Muslim neighbors to extract enough riches. As these conquered peoples became Muslim and were brought into the umma, it was necessary to go after the next ring of non-Muslims, and so it goes. Then by the simple expedient of a schism between the two sects of Sunni and Shiite, fellow Muslims were declared non-Muslim and available for plunder. It's quite elegant, really.
2
This editorial makes it seem like that before the Saudis came in, religion of Islam was secular and tolerant and peaceful. Just a brief look into history reveals just the opposite. Islam has historically been a violent , expansionist and supremacist ideology.
1
The Saudis have played us for suckers for a couple of generations now. They are much better at Middle East politics than we are. But pacts with the devil are pacts with the devil even in the Middle East.
The Saudis permitted their religious extremists to proselytize all over the world, using oil money to pay for schools and mosques. In turn the religious extremists legitimized the Saudi rule and trusteeship over the holy places of the hajj, and restrained from criticizing the Saudis for corruption and lack of faith. So to buy peace and legitimacy the Saudis allowed their religious extremists to spread poison in the Islamic world. And we helped them, particularly in Afghanistan, where the forces we supported proved incapable of living and governing together once they had won. We got oil, oil profits, and a market for our military products. They got protection as they spread their extremism, and they got us to take their side in their religious war against Iranian Shiism.
Now the extremism they have spread so successfully is coming back to plague everyone -- us, Europe, Saudi Arabia, and everyone else.
The Saudis permitted their religious extremists to proselytize all over the world, using oil money to pay for schools and mosques. In turn the religious extremists legitimized the Saudi rule and trusteeship over the holy places of the hajj, and restrained from criticizing the Saudis for corruption and lack of faith. So to buy peace and legitimacy the Saudis allowed their religious extremists to spread poison in the Islamic world. And we helped them, particularly in Afghanistan, where the forces we supported proved incapable of living and governing together once they had won. We got oil, oil profits, and a market for our military products. They got protection as they spread their extremism, and they got us to take their side in their religious war against Iranian Shiism.
Now the extremism they have spread so successfully is coming back to plague everyone -- us, Europe, Saudi Arabia, and everyone else.
57
With the help, protection, and support of our government, vassals of oil, banking and defense industries"The Saudis have played us for suckers for a couple of generations now." Today, the alliance of oil, banking. and defense, and the mouthpiece media collude with the Saudis to threaten our solvency and threaten retaliation should we pursue the primary source of all Sunni Wahhabi terrorism. America should prepare to defend ourselves from the Saudi despots. Identify those in the Saudi power elite who threaten our monetary system and those American government operatives employed by the Saudis, and the banking, oil, defense, and media outlets cabal who assist the Saudis and then act like these entities are preparing to launch an economic war on American solvency. We cannot hope for the best from the Saudis. We cannot let them crash the dollar and the world economy. Let's start acting as if the Saudis are not some eccentric uncle but a clear threat to world peace who are using religion to spread hatred, murder, and oppression around the world. Freedom of a religion to spread fanaticism is a fools bargain. We should identify all Wahhabi mosques, and imams in the world and monitor their actions and arrest them wherever they are when they advocate terrorism.
1
Like everything else in this world, if one looks deeply about any issue, it's always about money, who has it, and who is deprived and doesn't have it. And in this case, the source thereof, is from oil.
It looks like the Saudi's are finally experiencing owed blowback, and they are finally beginning to acknowledge they had better change their financial and governing mo for their own survival, and those of their own less fortunate countrymen. Some of their unfortunate victims just happen to include the young despondent Kosovars, who are merely their expendable by-product.
In all of our societies, including our own, just as it has been throughout history, inequality needs to be addressed if our civilizations are to continue into the future. History has proven that fairness, equality and change is a condition precedent to continued existence.
It looks like the Saudi's are finally experiencing owed blowback, and they are finally beginning to acknowledge they had better change their financial and governing mo for their own survival, and those of their own less fortunate countrymen. Some of their unfortunate victims just happen to include the young despondent Kosovars, who are merely their expendable by-product.
In all of our societies, including our own, just as it has been throughout history, inequality needs to be addressed if our civilizations are to continue into the future. History has proven that fairness, equality and change is a condition precedent to continued existence.
20
The Wahhabi are extremists. They are thus a minority of Sunni.
The Saudi Royals made a deal with the Wahhabi -- control of the oil for support of those extremists. The Saudi Royals are not themselves extremists, they are Faust making a deal. Now they are about 5,000 princes and such who cannot break the deal, or be swept away, but they themselves are playboys wallowing in the money, not extremists themselves. They know, but don't dare do anything about it.
Why Kosovo? Because it is small and new and vulnerable, within the reach of purchase by what the Saudis pass on to the Wahhabi.
The divide in the Arab world is not really Sunni vs Shiite. It is Wahhabi vs Shiite. The minority is actually the radical Sunnis, not the Shiites. The rest of the Sunnis are along for the ride. In Syria for example many Sunni who are not Wahhabi extremists fight for Assad, in fear of the wild men. Assad's army was always majority Sunni, and still is.
We've been fed a story that really isn't true, about Sunni vs Shiite and our ally Saudi Arabia. Nothing makes sense? That's because the story is not true, so of course it doesn't seem to explain things.
The Saudi Royals made a deal with the Wahhabi -- control of the oil for support of those extremists. The Saudi Royals are not themselves extremists, they are Faust making a deal. Now they are about 5,000 princes and such who cannot break the deal, or be swept away, but they themselves are playboys wallowing in the money, not extremists themselves. They know, but don't dare do anything about it.
Why Kosovo? Because it is small and new and vulnerable, within the reach of purchase by what the Saudis pass on to the Wahhabi.
The divide in the Arab world is not really Sunni vs Shiite. It is Wahhabi vs Shiite. The minority is actually the radical Sunnis, not the Shiites. The rest of the Sunnis are along for the ride. In Syria for example many Sunni who are not Wahhabi extremists fight for Assad, in fear of the wild men. Assad's army was always majority Sunni, and still is.
We've been fed a story that really isn't true, about Sunni vs Shiite and our ally Saudi Arabia. Nothing makes sense? That's because the story is not true, so of course it doesn't seem to explain things.
173
The divide is Sunni Vs Shiite. The Princes for whom there is no solid census, are somewhere between 5000, and 15 thousand according to obviously flawed estimates. About 2000 of them have power, and they are of course extremists by definition.
They sit on top of about 28.5 million Saudi's, 20 million of whom are the hated, and feared Shiites, who live, and work in the Eastern Shiite Crescent, where of course all of the oil is.
Ibn Saud made the deal with Wahabi, in order to be anointed by them King of Saudi Arabia, and the Guardian of Mecca. Wahhabi crowned the head of the house of Saud in the same sense and for the same reasons, that the Pope crowned Charlemagne Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. If the Great Charl was not holy, then he was just another robber baron whose legitimacy rested upon extreme violence, and the same is true of the King of the extremely violent drone Princes of the Saudi Arabia.
The Princess hate the Shiite ostensibly because they are apostates, but let's face it, Baharin exists so that the Princes can sip Scotch and taste blondes, without arousing censure at home. Shiites are considered a never ending threat because they are the labor force, which enables cheap oil extraction through cheap labor, and of course they occupy the vital border area between Iraq, and homeland reserves.
The purpose of Princely Sunni Terrorism is to tame the Shiites, while extracting labor, and obstructing by violence Persian pipeline ambitions for Europe and Asia.
They sit on top of about 28.5 million Saudi's, 20 million of whom are the hated, and feared Shiites, who live, and work in the Eastern Shiite Crescent, where of course all of the oil is.
Ibn Saud made the deal with Wahabi, in order to be anointed by them King of Saudi Arabia, and the Guardian of Mecca. Wahhabi crowned the head of the house of Saud in the same sense and for the same reasons, that the Pope crowned Charlemagne Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. If the Great Charl was not holy, then he was just another robber baron whose legitimacy rested upon extreme violence, and the same is true of the King of the extremely violent drone Princes of the Saudi Arabia.
The Princess hate the Shiite ostensibly because they are apostates, but let's face it, Baharin exists so that the Princes can sip Scotch and taste blondes, without arousing censure at home. Shiites are considered a never ending threat because they are the labor force, which enables cheap oil extraction through cheap labor, and of course they occupy the vital border area between Iraq, and homeland reserves.
The purpose of Princely Sunni Terrorism is to tame the Shiites, while extracting labor, and obstructing by violence Persian pipeline ambitions for Europe and Asia.
So where is mainstream Islam practiced- the tolerant, peaceful and secular version?
Whahabiism started in 1776 when Ibn Whahab made a deal with the king of Arabia to insure the power of the Arabian leading family in exchange for fealty to Whahabism. Then, not long before his death, President Franklin D. Roosevelt made a secret deal with King Saud that cemented the alliance between Saudi Arabia and the U.S.
Ironical that the birth of Democracy and the birth of its opposite should share the same historical year.
Ironical that the birth of Democracy and the birth of its opposite should share the same historical year.
1
Why is Saudi Arabia so interested in little Kosovo? What is so special about this tiny nation of 1.8 million? The answer is absolutely nothing.
So is there some strategic military value to Kosovo for preserving the power of royal family? Nope!
So what is the reason?
Kosovo isn't the only place the Saudi's are spreading their poisonous Wahhabi Islam. They are spreading it anywhere they can and Kosovo is just one of those places. The goal of Shariah law is to have it enforced everywhere.
Saudi Arabia can inject their societal cancer in Kosovo because they can get away with it. The Times is writing about it because they have people investigating it. It isn't safe to send reporters into these hotbeds of religious fanaticism which makes it difficult for this paper or any news organization to get the details out. But they must come out into the light of day.
The victims of this cancer are always the same. Angry, disenfranchised, hopeless young people that want to get ahead and get even. Unfortunately, they are just pawns of a much bigger enterprise. Their manipulators live well, while the pawns end up as walking bombs.
The Saudis and other gulf states have been spreading this infection for decades. It's time we made them stop. If we don't, then we are passively aiding the very fanatics we claim to be fighting against.
So is there some strategic military value to Kosovo for preserving the power of royal family? Nope!
So what is the reason?
Kosovo isn't the only place the Saudi's are spreading their poisonous Wahhabi Islam. They are spreading it anywhere they can and Kosovo is just one of those places. The goal of Shariah law is to have it enforced everywhere.
Saudi Arabia can inject their societal cancer in Kosovo because they can get away with it. The Times is writing about it because they have people investigating it. It isn't safe to send reporters into these hotbeds of religious fanaticism which makes it difficult for this paper or any news organization to get the details out. But they must come out into the light of day.
The victims of this cancer are always the same. Angry, disenfranchised, hopeless young people that want to get ahead and get even. Unfortunately, they are just pawns of a much bigger enterprise. Their manipulators live well, while the pawns end up as walking bombs.
The Saudis and other gulf states have been spreading this infection for decades. It's time we made them stop. If we don't, then we are passively aiding the very fanatics we claim to be fighting against.
478
FYI Bruce; Saudis are so interested in Kosovo because it is the first independent Muslim in Europe, They want others to follow. Turkey and Saudis are also pouring money in the Muslim community in Bulgaria and in all the former countries of the Ottoman Empire, trying to spread Islam. They always wanted to conquer the West though, for centuries of crusade; and the current one, with the "Muslim refugees" is working.
5
Why the interest in Kosova?
It's obvious....they're evangelicals.
It's obvious....they're evangelicals.
3
Maybe because Kosovo is an European country that has predominantly Muslim population?
2
There are some very deep flaws in this editorial, beginning with the very first sentence. To write that Saudi Arabia has frustrated U.S. policy makers of either political bent in any administration in recent memory, going all the way back to Richard M. Nixon is false, ignorant, deceitful, or a combination of all three.
We have allowed Saudi Arabia to lead us by the nose for decades, ceding power over our relationship to it from the beginning, allowing commercial interests (money and Big Oil) to lead U.S. administrations by the nose. We've had presidents and high-level administration officials with deep ties to the oil and energy industries. Undue deference has been given to a tiny kingdom, ruled by despotic religious zealots bent on using their poisonous brand of Islam to recreate their version of the old Ottoman Empire. And we, as a nation, acquiesced to very bad Saudi behavior.
There is no way our intelligence services have had no inkling as to what the Saudis and their agents have been up to. Why have we never put them in their place? Given them any ultimatums? Gotten our European partners together in some kind of effort to reign the Saudis in?
At the root of all this is deep corruption and the rule of fear. Fear of oil shortages, fear of sudden sell-offs of US stocks held by the Saudis see http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-2ct), fear of increased terrorism against the U.S., fear of... We already have fear and chaos. It's time to confront the bullies and put them out of business.
We have allowed Saudi Arabia to lead us by the nose for decades, ceding power over our relationship to it from the beginning, allowing commercial interests (money and Big Oil) to lead U.S. administrations by the nose. We've had presidents and high-level administration officials with deep ties to the oil and energy industries. Undue deference has been given to a tiny kingdom, ruled by despotic religious zealots bent on using their poisonous brand of Islam to recreate their version of the old Ottoman Empire. And we, as a nation, acquiesced to very bad Saudi behavior.
There is no way our intelligence services have had no inkling as to what the Saudis and their agents have been up to. Why have we never put them in their place? Given them any ultimatums? Gotten our European partners together in some kind of effort to reign the Saudis in?
At the root of all this is deep corruption and the rule of fear. Fear of oil shortages, fear of sudden sell-offs of US stocks held by the Saudis see http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-2ct), fear of increased terrorism against the U.S., fear of... We already have fear and chaos. It's time to confront the bullies and put them out of business.
523
One more big nit with this editorial...
"... Since the war, that tradition has been threatened by Saudi-trained imams, their costs paid by Saudi-sponsored charities, preaching the primacy of Shariah law and fostering violent jihad and takfirism, which authorizes the killing of Muslims viewed as heretics."
This is an incorrect usage of the term "Shariah law." Shariah law is to Islam what Rabbinical law is to Judaism, canon law to Catholicism, Dharma to Hindusim, etc. Every religion has its laws, Islam included. To write "teaching the primacy of Sharia law..." is a highly prejudiced way of writing about Islam when all religions teach the primacy of their own laws. This usage of the term is highly divisive and fundamentally incorrect.
"... Since the war, that tradition has been threatened by Saudi-trained imams, their costs paid by Saudi-sponsored charities, preaching the primacy of Shariah law and fostering violent jihad and takfirism, which authorizes the killing of Muslims viewed as heretics."
This is an incorrect usage of the term "Shariah law." Shariah law is to Islam what Rabbinical law is to Judaism, canon law to Catholicism, Dharma to Hindusim, etc. Every religion has its laws, Islam included. To write "teaching the primacy of Sharia law..." is a highly prejudiced way of writing about Islam when all religions teach the primacy of their own laws. This usage of the term is highly divisive and fundamentally incorrect.
58
Not only that, Rima, but our government, of both parties has willingly bought the bill of goods that we and Israel can deal effectively with the Saudis as a bulwark against the "real" enemy, Iran. Yet we characterize Iran as a "state sponsor of terrorism," but not Saudi Arabia?
Proof positive that in the middle east, we are pliable fools taken for a ride over and over again.
Proof positive that in the middle east, we are pliable fools taken for a ride over and over again.
6
Great points, but you buried the lead. Paragraph 2 is where the story begins IMHO.
The Kosovo story is excellent journalism, a view of a country small enough to see the effects of Saudi trained radicals up close. But Turkey and other once moderate nations are also falling under the influence of Wahhabism, with Saudi funding for many Haj pilgrims from Turkey and elsewhere.
The nuclear deal with Iran and other balancing in the Middle East suggest that the the US-Saudi alliance may be going the way of the US-Pakistan relationship.
Wild speculation: did the US maintain a cosy relationship with the Saudis to keep them out of the nuclear club?
The nuclear deal with Iran and other balancing in the Middle East suggest that the the US-Saudi alliance may be going the way of the US-Pakistan relationship.
Wild speculation: did the US maintain a cosy relationship with the Saudis to keep them out of the nuclear club?
45
The House of Saud has been the epicenter of evil we are seeing in the world. The oil money is solely responsible to fan the religious hatred and the ensuing culture of murder and mayhem. It has been easy for the well funded Wahabis to brainwash semiliterate people into believing that there not only are 72 virgins on the other side, but you will also be blessed for taking along your village with you to the promised land. How can a 18 year old child in an Islamic country with hardly any prospects in life refuse such a deal. A child who has most of his life memorizing a book, the language of which he does not even understand, in a madrasah funded by none other than the House of Saud. The generous grants for these Saudis fund the scheming charlatans who are expert at using dubious logic in duping people into beliving Islam is the greatest religion in the world and Quran has answers for every question. They denigrate other societies, justify violence against innocents by branding them non-believers and sow the seeds of oppression and violence. unless the schemes and schemers and especially the wily financiers are exposed, the future of the world as we know it is very very bleak.
182
You just now all figuring that out now wow I could have told you that years ago. America has been funding radical Islam through support of the Wahabbi Dictatorship in Saudi Arabia and you folks wonder why America is viewed as the biggest hypocritical nation on earth just look at who you support with your tax dollars Americans. America has been supporting a viper and they have been biting us for decades and yet we do nothing about it so eventually the venom will kill us as a nation and we won't have the doctor to blame but our own selves for not getting to the doctor sooner. Wake up Americans for please sake and use common sense at the voting booth.
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Hate to remind you, but the voting booth is no guarantee that democracy wins. We the people elected Al Gore in 2000 - but voter fraud put good Saudi Friend Bush in the White House - and we all know how that disaster played out. It's prayer we need to turn to, prayer that the Universal Consciousness will guide us to riot, refuse to pay taxes and obstruct highway traffic until our rightfully elected president takes office in 2017 - because yes, the GOP is again going to commit voter fraud to steal the White House. Be sure of it.
9
I know! NOW they tell us, right?
I have never understood why the American public and the American press (especially the NYT) didn't scrutinize our (and the Bush family's!) cozy alliance with Saudi Arabia or our invasion of Iraq after 9-11 considering that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis and not one of them was from either IRAQ or IRAN!
I have never understood why the American public and the American press (especially the NYT) didn't scrutinize our (and the Bush family's!) cozy alliance with Saudi Arabia or our invasion of Iraq after 9-11 considering that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis and not one of them was from either IRAQ or IRAN!
1
President Obama was deeply concerned about the recent action to attempt to sue Saudis for 9/11. So who do we vote for? Hillary?
The Saudi government is indeed repugnant. It certainly deserves the opprobrium that the Times heaps on it.
It's also true that the government of Iran is supporting the Assad regime in Syria, which is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents. President Obama has enabled Iran to step up its material support for Assad and his Hezbollah allies through the nuclear deal he reached with Iran. This, too, is worth an editorial.
It's also true that the government of Iran is supporting the Assad regime in Syria, which is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents. President Obama has enabled Iran to step up its material support for Assad and his Hezbollah allies through the nuclear deal he reached with Iran. This, too, is worth an editorial.
14
Boy, that's some stretch to blame Obama's diplomacy, which reduced the possibility of a nuclear-armed Iran and opened avenues of communication with that Shi'ite state, for Assad's atrocities. Has it occurred to you that Assad's regime is also under siege by ISIS, which was the topic of this editorial?
As someone commented yesterday regarding a different op-ed, blame Obama again?
As someone commented yesterday regarding a different op-ed, blame Obama again?
11
Good point but what about Saudi Arabia's bombardment of tiny Yemen? How many have they killed there? The Saudis are using cluster bombs in the impoverished country leaving it in ruins and giving new power to Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. How many suicide bombers around the world have been Sunni, supported by KSA and how many have been Shia?
It is far too easy to point the finger at Iran but fact is that almost all terrorism's roots can be found in Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia.
It is far too easy to point the finger at Iran but fact is that almost all terrorism's roots can be found in Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia.
1
Allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons would allow them to DRASTICALLY step up their support for Assad! The world is neither simple nor perfect and right now, it's SUNNI Islamic terrorists who are working feverishly to attack and kill us both at home and abroad, not SHIITE Iranian terrorists.
Yes, Iranian IEDs were used to attack American soldiers but only after we invaded Iraq for no reason whatsoever. Even after President Reagan gave Saddam Hussein CHEMICAL and biological weapons to drop on Iranian citizens they did not attack us in return! Remember those good old days, the days when we/Reagan were BFFs with both Saddam Hussein AND the Taliban?!?
Yes, Iranian IEDs were used to attack American soldiers but only after we invaded Iraq for no reason whatsoever. Even after President Reagan gave Saddam Hussein CHEMICAL and biological weapons to drop on Iranian citizens they did not attack us in return! Remember those good old days, the days when we/Reagan were BFFs with both Saddam Hussein AND the Taliban?!?
1
The Saudi support of the radical version of Islam and the negative political effects of that support would have been a timely and wonderful story twenty or thirty years ago. Still, it as they say: "better late than never." I'm sure the fact that the Times is expressing concern and outrage is registering on various leaders in the middle east. But it is late in the game as the horse has already left the barn.
The Times editorial staff would do well to consider what other important stories are being neglected for fear of upsetting the apple cart.
The Times editorial staff would do well to consider what other important stories are being neglected for fear of upsetting the apple cart.
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Islam, is a system that has always used its religious component to advance itself politically and its political component, conquest, to advance itself religiously. Its dynamism has always come from the plunder that came with raiding and conquest, the former coming first, softened up and prepared for the latter.
They intend to use our systems against us. Specifically, freedom of religion to expand demographically in our midst.
We should impose upon those we trade with freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
Freedom of speech can allow us to propogate knowledge of who Mohammed was and just what it is Islam actually believes in.
Most Muslims don‘t know what they believe in. Most are ordinary decent people with a conscience just like 95 percent of the rest of humanity. Once they know what Islam is all about, freedom of religion will allow them to drift away from it, for agnosticism, atheism, or perhaps some other religion if they so choose. In an environment of freedom of religion and speech over 150 years, that means just about everybody.
Want to make Wahabist in Saudi Arabia really nervous? Insist upon freedom of speech and freedom of religion, have Hollywood cook up a movie detailing Mohammed‘s life, grab a box a popcorn and watch and see what happens.
They intend to use our systems against us. Specifically, freedom of religion to expand demographically in our midst.
We should impose upon those we trade with freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
Freedom of speech can allow us to propogate knowledge of who Mohammed was and just what it is Islam actually believes in.
Most Muslims don‘t know what they believe in. Most are ordinary decent people with a conscience just like 95 percent of the rest of humanity. Once they know what Islam is all about, freedom of religion will allow them to drift away from it, for agnosticism, atheism, or perhaps some other religion if they so choose. In an environment of freedom of religion and speech over 150 years, that means just about everybody.
Want to make Wahabist in Saudi Arabia really nervous? Insist upon freedom of speech and freedom of religion, have Hollywood cook up a movie detailing Mohammed‘s life, grab a box a popcorn and watch and see what happens.
8
Mr. Friedman is correct and the Times might inquire more deeply into the workings of the Clinton Foundation, much of whose funding comes from the Saudis and other ME entities. This entire business of them using a Canadian charity to shield the identities of their donors is a real sham and would imagine the RCMP would co-operate fully if only they were asked. It's like Hillary's closed door talks to the Wall Street gang. Would you have us believe that not one person at those little "chats" didn't take notes or even record her talks? If you don't ask, no one will tell. This is the latest version of "Don't ask, don't tell" and the Times has been remiss on this and many other issues for years.
Until the United States ends its dangerous liaison with Saudi Arabia, it will continue to pay a heavy price. By supporting Saudi Arabia, the U.S. is inadvertently lending support to Islamic extremism. America knows very well that it is sleeping with the enemy yet it seems willing to pay any price for it.
Meanwhile, a country that need not be an enemy - Iran - is demonized purely for domestic political reasons. Who said American foreign policy made sense?
Meanwhile, a country that need not be an enemy - Iran - is demonized purely for domestic political reasons. Who said American foreign policy made sense?
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Umm...Nobody in the know for at least the last 40 years...
1
Did you catch the line: "does not have an educational system that supports critical thinking" ???? This sounds suspiciously like the educational curriculum that not too long ago Texas as cautioned about: mdidn't some of their legislators and educational "experts" decry and squash any effort tomteach "critical thinking" in the schools? Heaven forbid theynteach children and adolescents to think for themselves. Oh, wait! Texas.
5
Trying to contain Iran has more to do with their decades long support for such terrorist organizations as Hezbollah and their quest for atomic weapons than just "politics." If the mullahs were removed from power, I agree that Iran has the potential to be a valuable member in the family of nations. Most people lump Iran together with the rest of the ME, but they are of the Persian culture and are not Arabs in any real sense save their adherence to the Shia branch of Islam.
1
On 911 17 Saudis, led by a Saudi prince, funded by Saudi money and fueled with a religious fervor encouraged by the Saudi government took down the twin towers in NYC. Our response was to invade Iraq. A country run by a secular government with no ties to religious extremism, who's leader called Osama Bin Laden a dog and where Shiite, Sunni and Kurd lived together in relative peace. Instead of dealing with the underlying religious motivations of a few Saudi crackpots, the U.S., instead, started a war that destabilized the middle east ensuring that the religious crackpots would gain traction by being the last refuge for those with no further allegiance to their destabilized governments. Mission accomplished?
877
If dubya and company had been working for Osama, could they have served him better?
16
Rick, I'm curious about your source for the Saudi Prince you mentioned. Can you name him and provide sources?
1
Invading Iraq was the excuse necessary to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia. Those infidel troops had been a blasphemy to the
islamofascists in the Wahabi hierarchy and their militant terror agents. They had defiled the holy land of the Saudis since 1990, and by 9-11 the islamofascists hatched a plot to retaliate against the infidels.
islamofascists in the Wahabi hierarchy and their militant terror agents. They had defiled the holy land of the Saudis since 1990, and by 9-11 the islamofascists hatched a plot to retaliate against the infidels.
2
Wahhabism is a problem. But it's not like it's some rogue radical offshoot that is totally indistinguishable from the rest of Islam. The root ideology that "inspires", "promotes" and "inflames" people to commit acts of violent jihad in defence of the faith is Islam itself (or more specifically, Islamism).
An honest reading of the Koran and hadith will reveal specific doctrines related to martyrdom, Paradise, jihad, heresy, apostasy, conversion, xenophobia, and a longing for the afterlife to be the central tenets of mainstream Islam. These beliefs are part of Wahhabism, yes, but they're also widespread outside it. Focusing criticism solely on Wahhabism misses the mark.
An honest reading of the Koran and hadith will reveal specific doctrines related to martyrdom, Paradise, jihad, heresy, apostasy, conversion, xenophobia, and a longing for the afterlife to be the central tenets of mainstream Islam. These beliefs are part of Wahhabism, yes, but they're also widespread outside it. Focusing criticism solely on Wahhabism misses the mark.
73
Yes, yes, but the Old Testament is chock-full of "specific doctrines" calling for stoning heretics to death and all kinds of loony, extreme punishments for "offenses" to the faith.
It's not just radical Islam; it's radical religion.
It's not just radical Islam; it's radical religion.
13
Greed is the operative element here. That's why Exxon-Mobil and its political hacks look the other way. Religion is a distant second. That's why so many "evangelicals" vote for Trump. In the end religion is just a dodge, money rules, and profit is more important than principle, or really in the the view of the Christian right and the Davos set, its the only principle.
5
Your comment incorrectly broadbrushes the entire Islamic religion with the statement that it is inherently violent. Where are your facts to back up your assertions?
BTW - In last week's CNN GPS program, leading experts indicated that the violence was perpetuated by 0.01% of the 1B Muslims.
BTW - In last week's CNN GPS program, leading experts indicated that the violence was perpetuated by 0.01% of the 1B Muslims.
1
Saudi Arabia has been allowed to do what they have done because they have oil and therefore money. Western societies worship money much more than any deity. Oil was cheap and allowed a feeling of omnipotence that blinded most people to the potential destructive nature of what was going on. We had choices that would have averted this outcome as well as adequate warning such as the oil embargo in the early 70's. We could have moved from a carbon based energy source to many viable alternatives. However, the short term gains obtained from carbon negated the long term advantages of non-carbon energy sources. Typical of modern finance and western society. 'I have seen the enemy and he is us.'
91
The sooner we transition to non-fossil fuels, the sooner we can jettison America's intimacy with the Saudis. President Obama has begun this transformation. It will be up to the next administration, and Congress, to lead the nation further along the road to energy independence without selling our birthright of publicly owned lands to fossil fuel extraction by the likes of the Koch Bros. et al and their armed agents, the Bundy crew.
328
The US no longer has any need of Saudi oil, quite apart from any transition to renewable energy. It can provide its needs for fossil fuels itself or with the help of close allies. Transitioning to renewable energy may indeed be desirable, but technical issues remain for some time. Eliminating any dependence on Saudi Arabia is easily achievable now.
2
The truth is that only a small percentage of the oil consumed in the US comes from the Middle East. It is the interests of US oil drillers that are at stake in the Middle East, not US consumers.
8
Once again, I will very greatly miss President Obama (can we write his name in on the ballot come November? For a third term???). He has been level-headed, even-tempered, cautious and deliberate and thoughtful in his responses to international crises (not the cowboy, shoot-from-the-hip folks from Texas, and now from New York!). He has even "called it like it is" in referring to our supposed (and in some cases very wealthy - hint, hint, ou Middle Eastern countries and some Eurooeans) "free riders". That comment surely smarted the accused (if the shoe fits.....). PLEASE STAY, BARAK!!!!!!
I may live in North Carolina, but I'm a white Yankee ex-pat old enough to have seen it all.
I may live in North Carolina, but I'm a white Yankee ex-pat old enough to have seen it all.
4
This piece is just whining. Time to take action against the Saudis-- no more aid, arms, support, talks etc until they stop forcing women to wear shrouds (and mistreating them in countless other ways), funding our enemies and stirring up hatred. Might as well also require that they hold elections immediately. There is truly zero reason to think that this "culture" is anything other than hateful and regressive.
186
For all you know, they could be saying the same about a country where one child is killed by a firearm every other day.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sandy-hook-american-kid-has-died-gun...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sandy-hook-american-kid-has-died-gun...
2
Wahabism - the bane of civilization world wide.
275
Religion, the bane of civilization world wide,
7
It is not Wahabism, JMWB. It's the people who believe it.
1
Remember the "christian" crusades, the deadliest war in history, stoked by the catholic church. The original fear, anger, hate, war crowd. NO religious belief is worth dying or killing for.
4
Where was this editorial on 9/12 of 2001?
692
censored, of course
2
Speaking of 9/11 and the amazing behavior of the people here in the CIty in is aftermath, I used for many years the following as my signature line on a major progressive political blog forum:
'By the morning of September 12th, 2001, the people of New York City had won the War on Terror.'
They refused to be terrorized and worked together in an incredible way. That's one big reason I love this town.
'By the morning of September 12th, 2001, the people of New York City had won the War on Terror.'
They refused to be terrorized and worked together in an incredible way. That's one big reason I love this town.
1
If I had to guess JB , Id say that in 2001 the Saudi's were a vital cog, notwithstanding their religious extremism, in the Bush Administrations push for a new world order. As usual, the NY Times drearily went along with this mantra without exposing the severe hypocrisy that underlaid the US-Saudi alliance, an alliance that visited no sanctions or demanded no internal upheavals in the Kingdom despite the fact that a frightening number of the hijackers came from and were radicalized in the Kingdom. American energy independence is now allowing the US to distance itself from its erstwhile ally, to become, finally, responsive to the US electorates long held views. Do you think this would ever happen if fracking hadnt come along? Of course not. So who's worse: the Saudi's or the American govt which has long known what happens in the Kingdom but is now "ditching" the Saudi's for political expediency?
2
This reminds me of how the Republican Party enlisted right-wing talk radio, Fox TV, the Christian conservatives and Tea Partiers to keep getting Republicans elected and in power. Now, these people, just like the terrorists, are coming back to beat the Republican leadership, in the form of Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. Unfortunately, just as with Saudi Arabia, the US is reaping what the Republican leadership has sown. Let's hope that more rational, forward-thinking and compassionate people come back into power.
122
Many Conservatives would turn us into a theocracy if we let them. But it seems unlikely due to the large opposition against them. The closest parallel would be Israel, another state founded by religious reasons being taken over by an extremist minority. That is why it is amazing the type and number of attacks in these comments against Islam and Sunnism in particular when is clear in the editorial that only a minority among them are extremist. If they were directed against Israel I'm sure they would be attacked relentlessly as anti-Semite.
Extremism needs to be condemned and, if possible, contained. But we need to be careful not to alienate the moderates within those groups.
Extremism needs to be condemned and, if possible, contained. But we need to be careful not to alienate the moderates within those groups.
Ties between the Saudis and Clintons; Saudis and Bushes should be investigated.
http://prospect.org/article/clinton-foundation-donor-list-released
"An email ... the press corps announcing... Bill Clinton has released his foundation's donor...But no sooner had I clicked over to the foundation's website and read that the governments of Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Qatar had donated multiple millions of dollars each to Clinton's charitable works, than the site crashed. The website of Friends of Saudi Arabia, a group listed as a million-dollar donor to the Clinton Foundation, is also down."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bush,_House_of_Saud
"House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties is a 2004 book by Craig Unger that explores the relationship between the Saudi Royal Family and the Bush extended political family. Unger asserts that the groundwork for today's terrorist movements and the modern wars that have sprung up about them was unintentionally laid more than 30 years ago with a series of business deals between the ruling Saudis and the powerful Bush family."
http://prospect.org/article/clinton-foundation-donor-list-released
"An email ... the press corps announcing... Bill Clinton has released his foundation's donor...But no sooner had I clicked over to the foundation's website and read that the governments of Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Qatar had donated multiple millions of dollars each to Clinton's charitable works, than the site crashed. The website of Friends of Saudi Arabia, a group listed as a million-dollar donor to the Clinton Foundation, is also down."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bush,_House_of_Saud
"House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties is a 2004 book by Craig Unger that explores the relationship between the Saudi Royal Family and the Bush extended political family. Unger asserts that the groundwork for today's terrorist movements and the modern wars that have sprung up about them was unintentionally laid more than 30 years ago with a series of business deals between the ruling Saudis and the powerful Bush family."
141
It is profoundly wrong and unfair to the Clintons to compare the Bush family's ties to Saudi Arabia with the Clintons!
Clinton did try to kill Bin Laden and his admin warned W The Worst's about the impending threat posed by Bin Laden after his attack on the USS Cole and the Nigerian embassy etc. but their cries were largely ignored by his staff. (See how Condi Rice responded to an intel brief titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside US" delivered to her in August of 2001!)
The Bush family's fortunes have been intertwined with Saudi royals for decades! Michael Moore's brilliant movie FAHRENHEIT 9-11 laid out the details for all to see way back in 2004! He (and the book you reference) describes how the Bushes were SO close to the Saudi ambassador PRINCE BANDAR that they called him BANDAR BUSH! This was the same PRINCE BANDAR whose wife had allegedly funneled money to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden before 9-11. With friends like the Saudis who needs frenenemies?
Clinton did try to kill Bin Laden and his admin warned W The Worst's about the impending threat posed by Bin Laden after his attack on the USS Cole and the Nigerian embassy etc. but their cries were largely ignored by his staff. (See how Condi Rice responded to an intel brief titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside US" delivered to her in August of 2001!)
The Bush family's fortunes have been intertwined with Saudi royals for decades! Michael Moore's brilliant movie FAHRENHEIT 9-11 laid out the details for all to see way back in 2004! He (and the book you reference) describes how the Bushes were SO close to the Saudi ambassador PRINCE BANDAR that they called him BANDAR BUSH! This was the same PRINCE BANDAR whose wife had allegedly funneled money to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden before 9-11. With friends like the Saudis who needs frenenemies?
4
Besides the religious and political extremism that some in Saudi Arabia and its government underwrite, what particularly amazes is that this is an ally of the US. It's like having a venomous snake for a pet.
373
Except that most people get rid of a pet that has repeatedly harmed them. It's high time that American policy recognizes that Saudi Arabia is the head of the snake that threatens all secular societies.
8
There is going to come a day, probably not within my remaining lifetime but you never know, when the world is powered by other than carbon sources of energy. Certainly, nuclear and renewables offer hope of transitional fixes, but I suspect that this century sometime we’ll lick fusion, and open up a new age of endless, cheap, clean and safe energy; and the planet will begin to heal while the world that doesn’t rely exclusively on selling oil gets on with building prosperity and better-entrenched middle classes.
When that happens, the Saudis are going to look around and find that they have remaining absolutely no friends, and at a time when the ONLY thing that they offer the world for money has lost all its value. We will see again the silhouette of a nomadic royal Sunni tribesman on a dune, heating his tea by a fire fueled by camel dung … or by oil that nobody else wants. And that will be the story of Saudi Arabia.
But until that happens, hatred is sown throughout the region and beyond. We missed seeing the stirrings of Arab Spring entirely, then failed to lend it the kind of support it needed in building lasting representative institutions in parts of the world that had never before known them. Not surprisingly, Arab Spring failed. And we’ve missed seeing the co-opting of Kosovar youth, with the outcome the editors condemn.
When will we start seeing these things and doing something about them BEFORE they bite us?
When that happens, the Saudis are going to look around and find that they have remaining absolutely no friends, and at a time when the ONLY thing that they offer the world for money has lost all its value. We will see again the silhouette of a nomadic royal Sunni tribesman on a dune, heating his tea by a fire fueled by camel dung … or by oil that nobody else wants. And that will be the story of Saudi Arabia.
But until that happens, hatred is sown throughout the region and beyond. We missed seeing the stirrings of Arab Spring entirely, then failed to lend it the kind of support it needed in building lasting representative institutions in parts of the world that had never before known them. Not surprisingly, Arab Spring failed. And we’ve missed seeing the co-opting of Kosovar youth, with the outcome the editors condemn.
When will we start seeing these things and doing something about them BEFORE they bite us?
114
Sadly, that won't happen. Because neither Hillary nor Trump has the motive, desire, or conscience to make that move.
22
Our president was faced by a legislature dominated by a party that stopped mentioning its most recent president so it would not have to discuss his record and decisions or their usually enthusiastic support. The party was interested in the Middle East because it offered opportunities to make the president look bad and win the next election.
8
C3p0:
For the love of Mike, I swear you and so many like-minded are going to go to your reward still blaming Dubya for all the ills to which flesh is heir. Is this HIS presidency, or Barack Obama's?
I hardly ever mention the absurdity of the Carter presidency anymore.
For the love of Mike, I swear you and so many like-minded are going to go to your reward still blaming Dubya for all the ills to which flesh is heir. Is this HIS presidency, or Barack Obama's?
I hardly ever mention the absurdity of the Carter presidency anymore.
3