The photo at the end of the movie of a marine running with a flamethrower is my father, Staff Sgt. Ludger A. Champagne. He signed the photo in the official history of the 3rd Division. I have proof.
2
The picture doesn't show the thousands of soldiers I see who raised the flag on Iwo Jima. Mr. Bradley, I am proud of your father wherever he was that day on that island.
2
The "famous" flag raising was a re-enactment in the first place. The flag had already been raised once, but no one was there to take a picture. When the noted photographer got three (later) they did it again. Who they were is irrelevant. It was the act that was significant, not the people.
1
It's surprising how many people tie themselves in knots over whether something is real, fake, phony, staged, valid, etc.
The photo is real in that it wasn't put together in a dark room someplace; the image captures something that did take place.
It's staged in that all flag raisings are staged. After all, the Marines were ordered to put up a flag while they were on top of the mountain, then replace it with a bigger one.
The flag raising, though, wasn't posed. Rosenthal didn't pick six guys to stand in a certain order while he took a few shots., then try it again several different ways. He had the chance to snap one shot. And he didn't expect much out of it. He assumed the papers would run the group shot he had taken of the Marines who had raised the first flag. It actually took Rosenthal a couple of days to realize what everyone was talking about. In fact he contributed to this whole mythology when he was asked if he had posed the photo. Since he had told the Marines to get together so he could take a group photo, of course he said he had posed it.
It was pure chance Rosenthal caught an image that had such immediate power. In fact the image violates several major rules of visual composition: it's kind of off-balance and you can't see anyone's faces. If Rosenthal (or anyone else) actually had posed the flag raising, it wouldn't have ended up looking anything like that.
The amazing thing is that this almost off-hand shot produced such a powerful and lasting image
The photo is real in that it wasn't put together in a dark room someplace; the image captures something that did take place.
It's staged in that all flag raisings are staged. After all, the Marines were ordered to put up a flag while they were on top of the mountain, then replace it with a bigger one.
The flag raising, though, wasn't posed. Rosenthal didn't pick six guys to stand in a certain order while he took a few shots., then try it again several different ways. He had the chance to snap one shot. And he didn't expect much out of it. He assumed the papers would run the group shot he had taken of the Marines who had raised the first flag. It actually took Rosenthal a couple of days to realize what everyone was talking about. In fact he contributed to this whole mythology when he was asked if he had posed the photo. Since he had told the Marines to get together so he could take a group photo, of course he said he had posed it.
It was pure chance Rosenthal caught an image that had such immediate power. In fact the image violates several major rules of visual composition: it's kind of off-balance and you can't see anyone's faces. If Rosenthal (or anyone else) actually had posed the flag raising, it wouldn't have ended up looking anything like that.
The amazing thing is that this almost off-hand shot produced such a powerful and lasting image
11
''When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.'' - Newspaper Editor, " The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance."
Even a amateur photographer can tell this picture is staged. And so what if it is? Enough glorification of war and our lies about "saving the world for democracy." How about spending some energy and a few bucks on fixing the myriad problems we have at home?
1
Do we honor
the photograph?
or the event?
the photograph?
or the event?
1
Stories such as this are not an attempt at accuracy and truth...the author can choose to take his "Soldier Father" out of the picture based on clothing he allegedly wore and time of day picture was taken...but in the sum total it remains: American Soldiers lost their lives at Iwo Jima and a photographer attempted to capture the proof of a victory, courage, bravery, integrity and valor...I say: Hear! Hear!
Put the son's new information in a footnote...
Put the son's new information in a footnote...
Does anyone remember the Classics Illustrated, from the sixties? I clearly recall a small story on this in such a publication. It was illustrated as well: a group photo of the Marins, one raising his helmet; and then someone suggests (maybe the photographer?), let's get one of you guys raising the flag. So the picture is taken. It was staged, quite innocuously. No mention of any prior raising of the flag. Story ended saying how the second photo became the famous one, because of the sculpture.
To me, they are all heroes. Heroes- all those soldiers who fought; died; were injured on that Island.
The possible misidentification of the actual six depicted in the photo shouldn't detract from the symbolism of that image captured at that time and in that place.
But, J. Bradley Sr's reticence to discuss his participation in this action, as described in his son's book, speaks volumes, possibly about what its like to be an individual caught up in big event, be it a pivotal battle or the propoganda/fund raising juggernaut that followed. Its quite likely that the USN didn't care if Bradley was not amongst those exact six (and likely knew), but needed living participants to put on the war-bonds tour, another sacrificing of the individual for the greater good, war being war.
Semper fi all over again.
If that is the case, I have even more respect for USN Corpsman Jack Bradley and the rest of the contingent that tackled Mt Suribachi.
But, J. Bradley Sr's reticence to discuss his participation in this action, as described in his son's book, speaks volumes, possibly about what its like to be an individual caught up in big event, be it a pivotal battle or the propoganda/fund raising juggernaut that followed. Its quite likely that the USN didn't care if Bradley was not amongst those exact six (and likely knew), but needed living participants to put on the war-bonds tour, another sacrificing of the individual for the greater good, war being war.
Semper fi all over again.
If that is the case, I have even more respect for USN Corpsman Jack Bradley and the rest of the contingent that tackled Mt Suribachi.
2
If Mr. Bradley's father was not part of the photo (staged or not, its a beautiful photo and the battle was real!) it might be nice for the family of the man who was actually in the photo to know that as part of their history. One name i do recall who participated in the flag raising was Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian who was memorialized in Peter LaFarge's song of a similar name. The fate of Mr. Hayes is so similar to that today of so many of our service wo/men coming back from engaging in the moral wound called war.
2
There are secrets in my family that I will take to my grave because they serve no positive purpose.
I am shocked. The military - LIES?!?!?
Why, next, you'll tell me more unbelievable stuff - like Donald Trump might actually be a presidential nominee…
Seriously, as others have said, it's not the specifics of who, but, the iconic quality of the image in toto.
Problems naturally arise when things aren't crystal clear. A similar issue arises from the (also iconic) image of the GI kissing the nurse on VJ Day, where several men have come forward to proclaim they're the man featured in that picture.
People - for reasons ranging from innocent mistake to ego - will undoubtedly come forward to announce 'they're the one,' and as the amount of corroborating information is lacking, who's to say they're not?
Someone else - who says 'they're the one.'
Ultimately, 'who' is in these photos is of little importance to anyone but the subject, and their friends and family, and in the 'flag-raising' case, that's abundantly clear, as Mr. (James) Bradley has managed to make a career off his father's supposedly appearing in it.
Why, next, you'll tell me more unbelievable stuff - like Donald Trump might actually be a presidential nominee…
Seriously, as others have said, it's not the specifics of who, but, the iconic quality of the image in toto.
Problems naturally arise when things aren't crystal clear. A similar issue arises from the (also iconic) image of the GI kissing the nurse on VJ Day, where several men have come forward to proclaim they're the man featured in that picture.
People - for reasons ranging from innocent mistake to ego - will undoubtedly come forward to announce 'they're the one,' and as the amount of corroborating information is lacking, who's to say they're not?
Someone else - who says 'they're the one.'
Ultimately, 'who' is in these photos is of little importance to anyone but the subject, and their friends and family, and in the 'flag-raising' case, that's abundantly clear, as Mr. (James) Bradley has managed to make a career off his father's supposedly appearing in it.
The picture speaks for itself, regardless of whether or not it was the first or second such ceremony. Thousands fought and died, all unnamed except to their relatives, and these few in the photo also remain -- to paraphrase, "in honored anonymity" as it should be, for they represent all.
2
really, who cares. It's what the image represents to America not the names of who participated.
1
One man who was at the original flag raising on Mount Surabaci was Stg. Henry Oliver Hansen of Somerville, Massachusetts. He was born a year and a month after the armistice that ended WWI, and he died March 1st, 1945 five months before the end of WWII. He served honorably with the 28th Marines, 2nd Battalion, C Company in the Pacific War against The Empire of Japan. Sgt. Henry O. Hansen has the rare distinction of being one of the six Marines who raised the flag on Iwo Jima – he was the one who found the lead pipe to hoist it. This took place on February 23, 1945. In a few short days Stg. Hansen would die on March 1st. Sgt. Hansen is not depicted in the famous photograph by Rosenthal. That photo was staged – a reenactment of what had already happened. Hansen is in another photo holding the pole with his left hand, steadying it. He is wearing a soft hat though everyone else around him is helmeted. They were still taking fire. It is not the same flag as in the Rosenthal photo – it’s smaller. The city of Somerville has dedicated a small gated park to Sgt. Hansen on Medford Street and Partridge Avenue. The monument depicts Stg. Henry O. Hansen in a helmet with a chin strap, arms across his chest. He is seen from the bottom up. Under this image are the dedicatory words informing the viewer of the basic facts of Hansen’s service.
4
Another participant in the original flag raising was Larry D. ('LD') Taunton (now deceased, formerly living in San Diego) who can draw his family tree all the way back to the Mayflower. He was a vehicle mechanic working down on the beach, and when someone suggested they raise the flag, he thought it was crazy, but anything was better than working in a fixed position on the beach being peppered with live fire, so he joined the original group and helped raise the original flag.
Why is this an issue?
Sure, families may be interested, and, as noted, assertions made in books and movies may have been wrong. And maybe that particular photo was staged.
It may seem callous, but so what? I would venture that none of the Marines on Iwo Jima fought for glory or recognition or to be captured in an iconic photograph. They fought for the men beside them and for their commitment to their country. The particular Marines in that photograph, or any other classic wartime photos, should be seen as representative of all Marines and, indeed, of all soldiers, sailors, and airmen who fought and died.
Sure, families may be interested, and, as noted, assertions made in books and movies may have been wrong. And maybe that particular photo was staged.
It may seem callous, but so what? I would venture that none of the Marines on Iwo Jima fought for glory or recognition or to be captured in an iconic photograph. They fought for the men beside them and for their commitment to their country. The particular Marines in that photograph, or any other classic wartime photos, should be seen as representative of all Marines and, indeed, of all soldiers, sailors, and airmen who fought and died.
6
The new claims by James Bradley really disturbs me. I cried much of the time when reading his book when it first came out because of how powerful the story was and still is today. By all accounts written about John Bradley, he did not come across as a liar or someone who misrepresented himself. If Mr. Bradley was in deed not the individual in that immortal photograph, why did he not come forward and correct it from the beginning? Taking credit for something he allegedly never did seems completely in contrast to the character and integrity of the man.
The only individuals who knew for certain who were in that photograph are those six photographed servicemen - PERIOD. Anyone else making claims, including Mr. Bradley's son, are merely speculating. The "evidence" suggested by Stephen Foley and Eric Krelle is hardly earth shaking.
Until the time comes when possibly a new family member surfaces and challenges with concrete evidence that his/her father was the individual in the photo and not John Bradley, this entire premise is insulting and disgraceful. If James Bradley feels so bad, perhaps he should donate all of the proceeds of his book to the USO or servicemen and servicewomen who have permanent combat injuries.
3
The first flag raising on Iwo Jima (not the one in Rosenthal's iconic photo) was repeated because that flag was too small to be seen by other troops on the beachehad or still at sea. So, in a sense, the second raising was "staged" but I say in a sense because it was done for a military and morale purpose, not simply for wartime propaganda.
Like many others, I wanted to know who were the guys who raised the flag and what happened to them. But as the years have gone by, I have come to look upon the Iwo Jim flag-raisers as "unknown soldiers," who command anonymous but deep eternal respect and honor.
Like many others, I wanted to know who were the guys who raised the flag and what happened to them. But as the years have gone by, I have come to look upon the Iwo Jim flag-raisers as "unknown soldiers," who command anonymous but deep eternal respect and honor.
8
My 90-year-old father served in the Second Marine Division in the Pacific during WWII. As far as I know, he was not in the battle for Iwo Jima, but he has been so hesitant to talk about his experiences in detail that it would be difficult for me to determine exactly what events he was involved in, although I have a general idea. To me, this photograph and the memorial are less about which individuals were in them and more about the courage and sacrifice of "the greatest generation" to confront evil in the world. I am probably one of the younger children of a WWII vet who still has my dad around as a role model, so I hope their values are what we can focus on as we attempt to memorialize them to a new generation.
6
The raising of the flag was but a symbol that marked the sacrifice and heroism of all that fought at Iwo Jima and beyond. We should be much more concerned about taking care of our veterans that getting involved in arcane trivia like this.
4
It's also worth noting that whoever those were in the picture, we definitely know who the photographer was. Along with many other war correspondents, Joe Rosenthal placed his life on the line to keep people back in the U.S. informed of what was occurring. And he took that iconic photo in a place where there were active enemy troops all around.
8
We have many challenges facing the country and our brave Marines. I hope that any work going into the identification of these soldiers will be stopped so that we can turn our attention to important matters.
Any Marine on Iwo Jima was a hero, and I have little interest in further arcana.
Mr. Bradley's book was a terrific recounting of the struggle we faced on that tiny island. I remember where I was when I read it and found it to be riveting.
Please call me if you learn we were never on Iwo Jima. Otherwise, I am going to think about my Dad, a man who served in the Army Air Corps, who was deservedly part of the Greatest Generation.
Any Marine on Iwo Jima was a hero, and I have little interest in further arcana.
Mr. Bradley's book was a terrific recounting of the struggle we faced on that tiny island. I remember where I was when I read it and found it to be riveting.
Please call me if you learn we were never on Iwo Jima. Otherwise, I am going to think about my Dad, a man who served in the Army Air Corps, who was deservedly part of the Greatest Generation.
1
Largely, and understandably forgotten -- at least to a degree by the American public, so hungry for an end to the war -- are the thousands of Japanese soldiers who died, often literally in the very act of killing the Marine who was bayoneting or strangling him. This battle was one of the most horrific ever fought -- ever. That cannot be under emphasized, nor, frankly, even imagined.
Furthermore, had the Americans not come prepared for such a titanic struggle, with hundreds of ships, many of them battleships with their massive turreted cannon, and planes and tanks and numberless flame throwers, against a dug-in/cut-off/backs-to-the-wall Japanese army committed to die for their emperor to the man, from the moment they arrived on the island and their labyrinthian defensive works of caves and tripwires and ramparts and hideaways which the unknowing Americans would literally walk over not knowing what lurked beneath their feet, until the Japanese would erupt from within them and attack our men suddenly rom behind...the seemingly endless horror, terror, hopelessness...
May they, all of them, the dead, rest in peace, the long moments of their dying embracing their enemies, forever.
Furthermore, had the Americans not come prepared for such a titanic struggle, with hundreds of ships, many of them battleships with their massive turreted cannon, and planes and tanks and numberless flame throwers, against a dug-in/cut-off/backs-to-the-wall Japanese army committed to die for their emperor to the man, from the moment they arrived on the island and their labyrinthian defensive works of caves and tripwires and ramparts and hideaways which the unknowing Americans would literally walk over not knowing what lurked beneath their feet, until the Japanese would erupt from within them and attack our men suddenly rom behind...the seemingly endless horror, terror, hopelessness...
May they, all of them, the dead, rest in peace, the long moments of their dying embracing their enemies, forever.
3
For the record, Marines do not like to be called Soldiers, and the author's dad was a Navy Corpsman. The term, Soldier, usually refers to US Army personnel.
4
Every Marine on Iwo Jima raised that flag. It doesn't matter who was holding it.
5
As far as I am concerned, it makes no difference who was in the picture. These six marines are symbolic representatives of all the Marines that fought in the Pacific war against Japan. They were all heroes, many just out of high school. Let them lie in peace.
Semper Fi.
Semper Fi.
2
There's nothing I can add that others haven't said below more eloquently. All I can do is to quote The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
1
I would agree with all the comments about it not mattering who the actual Marines were as it was intended to be symbolic of all Marines if it were not for the fact that the military paraded these men relentlessly to sell war bonds and made them heroes. If they had kept the names anonymous it would have been better, but they chose to honor the men that raised the flag and if so also honor the people who had the original idea and raised the fist flag.
1
All heroes, regardless. I'm sure there were thousands of iconic moments not caught of film that could have just as easily summed the triumph of a terrible and hard-fought war. Hats off to a proud generation.
1
Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking about when they do these things. Does he think destroying the imagery of the photo will help solve any of the problems this country now fact? I doubt it. He just wants a jolt of the spot light!
Michael S. Schmidt tacking the important issues that impact our daily lives.
So what? Do we discount the sacrifices made by the men on Iwo Jima? Do we have to give the island back?
Garbage article. Insulting to readers.
So what? Do we discount the sacrifices made by the men on Iwo Jima? Do we have to give the island back?
Garbage article. Insulting to readers.
My dad was in Europe, not the Pacific so I am positive that he was not one of the men who raised the flag on Iwo Jima. The ones who did and all their comrades sacrificed much. The flag was raised - if not by the ones (improperly) identified then by others. If the photo was staged - then it was staged -- but the fighting wasn't and all the Marines there fought and bled.
It is not historically significant who raised the flag. They were all heros.
It is not historically significant who raised the flag. They were all heros.
From Italian it makes me realize that in the US nothing is sacred and everything can be questioned. While in Italy it is very easy to create the popular hero (relying on popular immaturity) in order to subvert the status quo.
1
It is a work of art in it's purest sense. It moves us for ALL it represents.
2
Have read the book and seen the movie. Have stared at the photo, read the story behind it. Have visited the monument. Have seen the stamp. Iwo Jima was a high point and a low point in the history of our country and the world. So many died there, violently, slaughtered for what? My father fought in New Guinea. Returned from war, broken, no teeth in the rear, scabbies. My mother said he caught a disease. He died at 52, when I was a kid.
1
We are spending too much time trying to rewrite our history. We see students asking their venerable old colleges and universities to rename buildings and institutions because they see things they do not like in the actions of the people they are named after. We want to change the people pictured on our currency because some people do not think they were proper people to be so honored. And now, we are attacking the integrity of one of the most iconic pictures of WW II, which has stood for many years as a symbol of the tenacity and efficacy of our troops at one of their great moments.
All of the people who were involved in the picture, including the photographer are now dead, some long dead. So, we will never know for certain what the full facts were. Let's leave the dead in peace and celebrate what was an undoubtedly important moment in the history of the WW II and the memorialization of it.
All of the people who were involved in the picture, including the photographer are now dead, some long dead. So, we will never know for certain what the full facts were. Let's leave the dead in peace and celebrate what was an undoubtedly important moment in the history of the WW II and the memorialization of it.
3
I new I new a guy who claimed to be one who intitally raised the flag. It was one of my friends grandfathers. He sai pad the picture was second. We said Pap why didn't you get I the picture, his comment was "I do not want to be aIn any picture". If you knew this guy that sentiment fit with his character. They just fought a horrific battle where their friends were killed, there was blood and gore everywhere, they were surprised to still be alive, I am sure that people's memories were not always accurate. All of the arguments aside it is a great picture.
The truth matters more than anything. Indeed, it is the only thing that matters.
In the end, the truth is all we have to guide us. Love sours, love dies and turns to dust. Friendship prove to be hollow, a sentimental fiction based on lies and deceit.
Patriotism is shown to be the folly of those who put the fabricated idea of their idealised country before the greater ideal of personal integrity.
When all else is dead and gone, only the truth remains, bitter and unvarnished, and for all that sweet, shining and victorious.
In the end, the truth is all we have to guide us. Love sours, love dies and turns to dust. Friendship prove to be hollow, a sentimental fiction based on lies and deceit.
Patriotism is shown to be the folly of those who put the fabricated idea of their idealised country before the greater ideal of personal integrity.
When all else is dead and gone, only the truth remains, bitter and unvarnished, and for all that sweet, shining and victorious.
2
I was 5 years old at the time and remember my father showing me the photo in our newspaper. I also remember thinking what heroes these soldiers (I didn't discriminate between the Marines and the Army then) were in taking that island from the Japs, as we called the Japanese at the time.
For me heroes they were and heroes they remain, misidentified or posed though they may be. I will continue to respect those Marines just I will continue to respect our slave-holding presidents, Washington and Jefferson among them.
Although we need mythis, it is important to seek the truth. The problem is that some cannot or do not want to deal with the truth. All, or most, of us know there's no Santa Claus, tooth fairy, or Easter Bunny. Are we harmed by that knowledge? I think not.
I believe that when we know the truth, we are indeed set free.
For me heroes they were and heroes they remain, misidentified or posed though they may be. I will continue to respect those Marines just I will continue to respect our slave-holding presidents, Washington and Jefferson among them.
Although we need mythis, it is important to seek the truth. The problem is that some cannot or do not want to deal with the truth. All, or most, of us know there's no Santa Claus, tooth fairy, or Easter Bunny. Are we harmed by that knowledge? I think not.
I believe that when we know the truth, we are indeed set free.
6
My father was on Iwo Jima. He never respected the Rosenthal posed photo as anything but a posed photo. For him, only the real flag raising on Mount Saribachi mattered.
5
A bit confused. I've watched the video of the flag raising...that combined with fact that Rosenthal couldn't have seen his photo prior to it going to print makes me wonder why such considerations of "posing" are still warranting any discussion. The key point of the article is that a soldier may have been misidentified...the photo remains valid. That there were two flag raising a does not make one or the other any less valid.
2
I do appreciate the need to get it right when it comes to the details, so it is not a wasted effort in that sense. The importance of the symbol represented by this image, particularly at the time, cannot be overlooked.
What the flag raising on Mount Suribachi meant to those who were there at the time, and who could see it, is probably unfathomable to us now. It symbolized the nearing of the end of the fighting and hope that they might live another day... and make it back home.
Considering the fighting that was yet to come, it was an important image on the home front too. I think the mystique came later. I actually feel for the guys who survived and did the patriotic tours. It had to be surreal to go from the hell of Iwo to the adulation and plenty of the US.
As a symbol it is powerful. It speaks of getting the job done and spreading hope. In memory of an Uncle I never met who died in the Pacific and all of those who face the horror of such events.
What the flag raising on Mount Suribachi meant to those who were there at the time, and who could see it, is probably unfathomable to us now. It symbolized the nearing of the end of the fighting and hope that they might live another day... and make it back home.
Considering the fighting that was yet to come, it was an important image on the home front too. I think the mystique came later. I actually feel for the guys who survived and did the patriotic tours. It had to be surreal to go from the hell of Iwo to the adulation and plenty of the US.
As a symbol it is powerful. It speaks of getting the job done and spreading hope. In memory of an Uncle I never met who died in the Pacific and all of those who face the horror of such events.
4
It only seemed like the flag raising came at the end of fighting to those that knew nothing about IWO.
Anyone who has every read a book on Iwo know the flag raising came very early in the fight.
Anyone who has every read a book on Iwo know the flag raising came very early in the fight.
2
Don't you think if there was something wrong with the photo identities that sometime in the last 70 years one of the survivors would have mentioned that?
2
So the Marine Corp has the time and the energy to "investigate" this? I would have thought there were other things happening that merited their attention. Our priorities are so messed up it is hard to understand how we will survive as a country.
1
Correction to the article: Ira Hayes went from Texas to Arizona to state to the family that their son WAS in the famous photograph; not that he was "incorrectly named."
3
staged photograph or not, correctly identified participants, doesnt really matter
to me.
what strikes me most is that it came to pass. The allies actually pulled it off and
won the war in under 5 years. Incredible.
This was an incredible feat involving millions who
served and the full commitment of their countries resources.
I cant really fathom something like this happening again, it seems to be a sort of thing that I would set aside as fiction yet it did happen
and we are free for it.
to me.
what strikes me most is that it came to pass. The allies actually pulled it off and
won the war in under 5 years. Incredible.
This was an incredible feat involving millions who
served and the full commitment of their countries resources.
I cant really fathom something like this happening again, it seems to be a sort of thing that I would set aside as fiction yet it did happen
and we are free for it.
10
the allies were in the war for almost six years. the soviet union and the usa were rather late in fighting hitler. the war started in 1939, not 1940 or 1941.
3
I can. And overpopulation and depletion of resources is leading everyone down the slow but sure path to a similar annihilation.
One has to laugh. We elected a president who seemed to have believed that appearing in war movies during WWII was the same as actually serving in combat. We elected a man who used his connection to join the National Guard and his draft dodging running mate both of whom avoided service in a war they supporter over a man who actually placed his life on the line for his country in a war he thought was wrong. And a man who Congress voted a medal for as the ideal of American heroism managed to duck out service completely during WWII.
Unless someone finds that Iwo Jima photo was taken on a sound stage somewhere in Hollywood, I know that whoever the men are in the picture they did a heckuva a lot more for their country and were more courageous than Reagan, W., Cheney, or John Wayne.
Unless someone finds that Iwo Jima photo was taken on a sound stage somewhere in Hollywood, I know that whoever the men are in the picture they did a heckuva a lot more for their country and were more courageous than Reagan, W., Cheney, or John Wayne.
31
Why does this even matter?
16
John Bradley was a hero, and on a personal note, a friend of my dad's. The two met in Navy boot camp. Bonds were special then, as all men in camp were anxious about what lay ahead.
Bradley was selected for the Fleet Marine Force while my dad missed out on that opportunity (I'm not sure I'd be here if he had been picked). While John was later piecing together bodies on Iwo Jima, my dad was handing out aspirin and penicillin to servicemen as a navy corpsman on Tinian Island and then Japan.
My opinion of Bradley does not change a bit. I know my dad, who died a few years ago, would not have cared either.
Bradley was selected for the Fleet Marine Force while my dad missed out on that opportunity (I'm not sure I'd be here if he had been picked). While John was later piecing together bodies on Iwo Jima, my dad was handing out aspirin and penicillin to servicemen as a navy corpsman on Tinian Island and then Japan.
My opinion of Bradley does not change a bit. I know my dad, who died a few years ago, would not have cared either.
11
Seriously, we have a man who is quite clearly delusional and definitely obnoxious almost positioned to make a serious run for the White House, and you are worried about an iconic image that commemorates actual heroes? Talk about irony.
10
There is more than enough media coverage of the Trump, and I for one am happy to click on an article that has nothing to do with the current presidential race. A re-examination of an event that happened in the past doesn't detract from anyone's interest of current events, and reading this article was a lovely distraction for me. A little history never hurts when it comes to put things into perspective.
The Tomb of the Unknowns, in Arlington National Cemetery, is there for a reason. The truth is the truth and that includes that those who were there were there and those who died, died. Then. Now. In all years to come. On every field of action.
4
This is a bit of oral history from my father, a Pacific Theater veteran who was in D-Days at Lingayen Gulf and Okinawa, but not Iwo Jima. When he was campaigning for Democrats in the 1970s, he met a man named Burt Yafffe who was running for some sort of office in Fall River, MA. Yaffe was in the Marines at Iwo Jima, and had a story about the attempt at the first raising of the flag on Mt. Suribachi. Apparently, an officer told him and his men to raise a flag, and Yaffe said "What are you crazy? The Japanese are still shooting at us and this area is not secure yet." They really wanted that photo quickly, but there was no need for more men to die to create that photo-op. But hey, that is just a couple of veterans telling their story, but it backs up what Schmidt is saying. An army moves on its belly, and those war bonds, with the A-Bomb, were crucial to create V-J Day. This is subtly demonstrated in Eastwood's Flags of our Fathers between the bravado.
5
There is great honor in each and every one of the Marines who raised either of the flags on Iwo Jima. Great honor for they and their brothers who made the flag raisings possible through their bravery, blood and lost lives. It is a shame that media reports of this most recent analysis --of who held which of the flag poles --as big news. Both flags were raised under enemy fire. The entire body of "Flags of our Fathers" illustrates that Bradley sought nothing for what he did other than the healing sands of time and anonymity.
10
I am a HS teacher and all my students were born after 9/11. Yes, we are all growing older as a nation. Let's honor the sacrifice of all who fought in the Pacific. This new generation will only be better for the study of these heroes.
9
I admire the flag raisers, whoever they were, but I bet every G.I. who set foot upon that island during the war agrees that the greatest heroes are the ones who did not leave alive.
8
I have so worried about this issue.
4
How well I recall the movie, The Outsider, about Ira Hayes, the Native American who was part of the flag-raising party on Iwo Jima. Played by Tony Curtis, it was a sad tale of being used to sell war bonds without any consideration of his humanity. The lad drank himself to death and died of exposure at age 32. The film was from 1961
4
Even better is the Pete La Farge song "The Ballad of Ira Hayes" made famous by Johnny Cash. In a few minutes it tells the story better than that whole movie.
6
It would also appear that the casting of his character was accomplished "without any consideration of his humanity".
1
A dramatic symbolization but, in reality, nothing more than a well staged picture. The truth, sacrifice and heroism expaned on that day on Iwo Jima can not wrapped in a posed photo or a cinematic melodrama. "John Wayne" did not fight on Iwo Jima. Real men did. Many really died.
4
History is fascinating, but questionable when using film negatives to digital creation with questions on resolution, shadows, etc. especially in pictures where faces aren't shown. Then using more flawed conversion of film to digital with questionable dates/time to support statements of people there... 70 years later, all those there have died and now we try to prove inconsequential history wrong... Amazing...
The picture spoke a million words without one person questioning who is in this picture; and rallied a nation tiring of war... It gave home and promise this war could be won...
Changing the names changes nothing. Those listed didn't receive any specific honor. They were brought home to sell war bonds while their friends died fighting the war... Some honor, to live while others you care for die in a war impacting the world... Heck, Ira Hayes threatened violence if he was named; see where it got him... A sad lonely death drunk dying from exposure to freezing temperatures...
Hats off to the veterans who fought for our freedom and asked nothing in return and came home wanting to forget without all this "Hero" garbage going on our service people seem to demand today.
The picture spoke a million words without one person questioning who is in this picture; and rallied a nation tiring of war... It gave home and promise this war could be won...
Changing the names changes nothing. Those listed didn't receive any specific honor. They were brought home to sell war bonds while their friends died fighting the war... Some honor, to live while others you care for die in a war impacting the world... Heck, Ira Hayes threatened violence if he was named; see where it got him... A sad lonely death drunk dying from exposure to freezing temperatures...
Hats off to the veterans who fought for our freedom and asked nothing in return and came home wanting to forget without all this "Hero" garbage going on our service people seem to demand today.
7
Truth and accuracy about historical events is always difficult to establish and every new fact which improves the accuracy of what is known is a good thing, even if it disillusions people as to what they have believed.
2
This is the headline sent out in an NYT email:
"BREAKING NEWS
New doubts have emerged about the iconic image of U.S. Marines raising a flag over Iwo Jima in World War II
Tuesday, May 3, 2016 5:53 PM ED"
The doubts about the identities of some of the participants does not throw "doubt" on the authenticity or significance of the second flag raising on Iwo. That is a misleading headline.
The flag was raised by the US Marines who survived the fighting climb to the top. The first flag was too small to be seen by the Marines fighting below. To further inspire their valor, a second, large flag was raised. An American flag was raised on Suribachi by Marines who fought the enemy for the honor. I know who each man was, they were Marines.
"BREAKING NEWS
New doubts have emerged about the iconic image of U.S. Marines raising a flag over Iwo Jima in World War II
Tuesday, May 3, 2016 5:53 PM ED"
The doubts about the identities of some of the participants does not throw "doubt" on the authenticity or significance of the second flag raising on Iwo. That is a misleading headline.
The flag was raised by the US Marines who survived the fighting climb to the top. The first flag was too small to be seen by the Marines fighting below. To further inspire their valor, a second, large flag was raised. An American flag was raised on Suribachi by Marines who fought the enemy for the honor. I know who each man was, they were Marines.
6
"Flags of Our Fathers’ Author Now Doubts His Father Was in Iwo Jima Photo"
Praise the Marines that did raise the FLAG and be on our Merry Way***
Praise the Marines that did raise the FLAG and be on our Merry Way***
My late father, James T. Dockery, was a first lieutenant in the Marines and a general's aide at Iwo Jima. He told me that after the first flag was raised, a Navy admiral wanted the flag for his ship so some Marines took it down and replaced it with a bigger flag, hence the second flag raising. Photographer Rosenthal then had a chance to shoot the historic moment for posterity. Everyone who served at Iwo Jima is represented in that photo and should be honored as such.
7
The chilling fact that three of the men who raised that flag were killed in action on Iwo Jima within days of the picture demonstrates that was indeed the greatest battle photograph of all time, and illustrates the essence of America.
I travel a lot, and what even foreigners well disposed towards American can't understand is why such a great percentage of people hang the American flag outside their houses, why it hangs from schools, churches, police stations, town halls. It just doesn't happen in their homelands.
Remember the emotion when the firefighters raised the American flag in the ruins of the World Trade Center.
Maybe some grad student can study whether our flag enthusiasm derives from the iconic photograph or whether it runs much deeper.
I travel a lot, and what even foreigners well disposed towards American can't understand is why such a great percentage of people hang the American flag outside their houses, why it hangs from schools, churches, police stations, town halls. It just doesn't happen in their homelands.
Remember the emotion when the firefighters raised the American flag in the ruins of the World Trade Center.
Maybe some grad student can study whether our flag enthusiasm derives from the iconic photograph or whether it runs much deeper.
3
My father was there, off shore. He distinctly recalls two flags, the first smaller flag and the second larger flag. I asked about this again after reading Flags of our Fathers. He confirmed again that he saw two flags.
6
The whole point of the image was the men were anonymous. None of their faces were visible and this to me represents the entire force being unified in one goal beyond a personal glory. It was the force of our nation on that mountain not six men. And to honor and glorify certain men over others just because one was in a photograph is disrespectful to the dead we never saw.
12
Mr. Bradley, take "the fog of war" to your heart closely. A very highly placed former U.S. Cabinet secretary mistakenly claimed to have rescued my grievously wounded father after a land mine disabled him just a couple hours into D-Day. I say "mistakenly" although my initial instinct upon hearing his claim was to expose it as a falsehood, since I knew the story to be untrue. But, upon looking into this man's personal and professional history after the war and realizing that aspects of his public service career were in fact beyond simply honorable and bordered on the heroic, that in fact, this man's actions benefited our entire nation at a critical time with regard to the respect for the office of our Presidency...well, as a consequence, I chose to think of the "inaccuracy" as a manifestation of the fog of war and just let history roll on. My father's own very estimable life history would not have been improved or degraded by having corrected the record, so what would have been the point of my little crusade to pursue and make public "the truth?" My father, the unnamed gentleman to whom I allude here, the platoon members who actually did rescue my father, all of whom have died at this point...who would have benefited at this point? No one that I can determine. Sometimes the "real" truth can take a back seat to the accepted truth, and can bring a sort of peace
7
I remember reading a magazine article not long after Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan came out in which a historian bitterly castigated Spielberg for "insulting his viewer's intelligence" by depicting a .30 caliber machine gun firing at "a rate of fire impossible to sustain in combat". As I recall the good laugh I had imagining this pedant huffing and puffing over an absurd irrelevancy, I wondered when we as a culture began to lose our way here; when did people begin losing sight of the broader significance of things, even momentous, grandioise things, preferring instead to parse over minutia that is often meaningless? For me (my father was a combat photographer in the Pacific) the facelessness of soldiers in this photo is precisely what elevates it and infuses it's powerful impact.
14
The truth is always beneficial with respect to history and every genuinely new fact that improves the accuracy of what is known about historical events are useful.
The men in the photo were not models and the event was not made up in a studio far from Iwo Jima. To capture these men in those positions with the wind flapping the flag simply could not be staged, it could be painted and in our day and age might be made with computer graphics, but those things did not happen. The photo was perfect but it was luck and a skilled photographer that produced it not clever staging. In any case, the men in the photo were heroes of the battle of Iwo Jima, not men pretending to be heroes.
The men in the photo were not models and the event was not made up in a studio far from Iwo Jima. To capture these men in those positions with the wind flapping the flag simply could not be staged, it could be painted and in our day and age might be made with computer graphics, but those things did not happen. The photo was perfect but it was luck and a skilled photographer that produced it not clever staging. In any case, the men in the photo were heroes of the battle of Iwo Jima, not men pretending to be heroes.
7
who cares? historic accuracy. the picture was staged; a senior officer wanted a larger flag used than the flag used in the FIRST pic taken earlier on same day. read the omaha news article before you decide that the issue is basically irrelevant. i suspect mr. bradley is lacking in candor, he just happened to 'correct' the historic record days after marines announced their investigation.
6
Marines care. The fight, deaths and wounded were not staged. Thanks for demonstrating how shallow Americans can be.
1
Doesn't matter if Bradley was actually in the second photo or not (for a few years now, Ive been convinced he wasn't). He still got to the top of Suribachi with that platoon and witnessed the raising. Common men who did uncommon things. None were heroes, but all were great in my book...
John, I still respect your dad. I also know that to go against the common wisdom at the time and sort out the confusion over the many years would have caused more pain than it would have been worth.
God Bless the men on both sides who either lived or died on that Island.
John, I still respect your dad. I also know that to go against the common wisdom at the time and sort out the confusion over the many years would have caused more pain than it would have been worth.
God Bless the men on both sides who either lived or died on that Island.
5
The men who were fighting on Iwo Jima when that photo was taken had suffered terribly and would go on suffering for another month after the hill upon which the flag was raised was surmounted. The raising of the first flag, prior to this one, was a sign of progress to the men at the time. This flag raising proved to be the perfect symbol for the battle, of any battle, really, and it helped to keep the nation supportive of the war when it was the hardest to do so, when victory was in sight but casualties were still horrifyingly high.
7
My uncle was captain on two carriers: Hornet and Enterprise. Battle of Midway. After the war ended, he told my father that the memories which haunted him were what happened after: the carriers went back to the islands and looked for any surviving Marines. They found them on the beaches waiting for rescue; they were emaciated, infected with foot sores, and sick. They were picked up, put in sick bay, given basic care and taken to hospitals in Hawaii. They made several trips until they found no more survivors. He said those were his worst memories; they were kids. He kept in touch with those who served under him; he called them his boys. He was only 24 at the time; also a "boy". Boys grew up fast in 1940.
7
The Rosenthal photo that inspired the memorial was NOT staged, contrary to comments below. There is ample evidence, written and photographic, to substantiate that fact. It was not, however, an image of the FIRST flag raising that inspired the marines and sailors who could see it from the island and sea below. The second raising would have been barely an afterthought were it not for the iconic photo. Sgt Lou Lowery captured photos of the first flag raising - also not staged - in which Corpsman Bradley definitely took part. Rosenthal did take staged photos of the participants (first and second) after the second raising - many were killed on that island. John Bradley was a true hero regardless of the flag raising - he later received the Purple Heart and Navy Cross (second in order to the MOH) for his actions as a Navy corpsman caring for his marines. Bradley may not have been in the Rosenthal photo, but he was one of the Iwo flag raisers. Every man on the island was a hero, particularly the 6800 Americans who died there. When they died they went to heaven, because they'd served their time in hell.
7
No need for a retraction. Your father is honored.
9
Any Corpsman or Medic is honored by any thinking individual and all those who have served in the military. They often do what others receive medals for.
1
"What does this iconic image mean to you?"
Exactly what is supposed to.
And this "news", sadly, means that any sense of dignity and importance is being lost in the social media era.
Exactly what is supposed to.
And this "news", sadly, means that any sense of dignity and importance is being lost in the social media era.
This is a great photograph that has been seen by a great many people.
It is a tribute to those who are the subjects and for all the photographers who braved the dangers of war to bring us stories and hope from the areas affected by the most traumatic war of their time.
They were all Heroes!
It is a tribute to those who are the subjects and for all the photographers who braved the dangers of war to bring us stories and hope from the areas affected by the most traumatic war of their time.
They were all Heroes!
3
God Bless every soldier in both theaters of the War. We need the photo so that we never forget, regardless of who is in it or its province.
3
I'm think it's interesting the way people talk about this photo being "staged". These weren't models flown in to look good for the flag photo--they were real soldiers, fighting for their country, fighting for their lives, our lives. Three of the named men in the photo died on Iwo Jima. I honestly wouldn't care if it came out that they got the iconic shot on the 50th take. That would do nothing to take away from the achievement and sacrifice of the men there, pictured and not pictured.
18
It is doubtful the world will ever see a more selfless generation than the one which fought and won the second world war. The names of the Iwo flag raisers really matter not as they were representative of the Marines, Sailors, and Soldiers. who won the war. Those few who strive to break down the photograph and discredit the history are sadly missing the point.
9
The names matter because the Marine Corps gave those men names. The wrong names.
Correcting history can never be wrong. Giving due credit is just an honest approach.
I had wished for a different outcome. It bothers me a lot that one if them is not a doc.
Correcting history can never be wrong. Giving due credit is just an honest approach.
I had wished for a different outcome. It bothers me a lot that one if them is not a doc.
1
I am surprised by the comments re: "the photo being staged" and questioning the value of who is really in it. Its well documented Navy Secretary Forestall who was offshore on a destroyer at the time observing the battle wanted the first flag as a souvenir. The Navy commander in charge ordered a bigger replacement flag be found and sent up. AP photographer Joe Rosenthal followed the Marine platoon up Surabachi hoping to get a photo as he had missed going up for the first raising. He had time for one quick photo. I myself am a photographer. Considering the equipment available to Rosenthal in 1945 (or even today for that matter) he DID NOT stage that photo. He got lucky and clicked the shutter at the right moment. He had no idea the flag was perfectly "curled" nor the Marines perfectly "positioned" when he clicked the shutter. He simply at great personal risk took one photo. Look at the video shot by Marine Corp cameraman Lou Lowery of the raising of this second flag and you will see it goes up very quickly. Rosenthal took one quick shot. he had no idea all the "photographic" stars would align to create possibly the worlds most famous photograph. All real photographer's know this. Considering this photos place in American history it is important from a historical perspective to know who was in the photo. Read John Bradley's book "Flags of Our Fathers" to really understand this iconic moment. It saddens me armchair critics still see a phony.
.
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7
And...
If the investigation reveals Mr. Bradley's father was indeed part of the flag raising...
What was the point?
We've lost so much over the years - now everything is suspect and fair game to be crapped all over by the "truth seekers".
Hey, Mr. Bradley - your dad fought with courage and distinction on Iwo - and saved many brave Marines' lives - you wrote a beautiful book about the battle and the event - don't diminish the reality of that - those of us who still honor our Military and their sacrifices just see Marines raising that flag - just Marines.
If the investigation reveals Mr. Bradley's father was indeed part of the flag raising...
What was the point?
We've lost so much over the years - now everything is suspect and fair game to be crapped all over by the "truth seekers".
Hey, Mr. Bradley - your dad fought with courage and distinction on Iwo - and saved many brave Marines' lives - you wrote a beautiful book about the battle and the event - don't diminish the reality of that - those of us who still honor our Military and their sacrifices just see Marines raising that flag - just Marines.
2
As most everyone now knows, the second staged photo was used to raise bond monies for a continued war effort. So why is it impossible that the identities are in question?
I don't intend this satire to discredit The Corps, but more the needless politics of war. - Certainly only the "pride of Semper Fidelis" would have stormed Suribachi and then raised the America flag after fighting days of bloody battle.
The second photo (the NY TImes could have published the first, raw photo in comparison?) does no justice to the harsh ugliness of war and the men who fought it and is instead merely staged drama. The first photo of a smaller flag raised on the only available standard on a bombed out ridge after a pitched battle was the Marine's rallying tribute to their comrades in arms, not the "war effort".
May the politics of war someday be abandoned. To quote Michael Franti's song "Time To Go Home"
"Those who start wars, never fight them
And those who fight wars, they never like them."
I don't intend this satire to discredit The Corps, but more the needless politics of war. - Certainly only the "pride of Semper Fidelis" would have stormed Suribachi and then raised the America flag after fighting days of bloody battle.
The second photo (the NY TImes could have published the first, raw photo in comparison?) does no justice to the harsh ugliness of war and the men who fought it and is instead merely staged drama. The first photo of a smaller flag raised on the only available standard on a bombed out ridge after a pitched battle was the Marine's rallying tribute to their comrades in arms, not the "war effort".
May the politics of war someday be abandoned. To quote Michael Franti's song "Time To Go Home"
"Those who start wars, never fight them
And those who fight wars, they never like them."
Two flags were raised, minutes apart. The photo is from the 2nd raising. But it was not staged for the photographer. He simply saw what was about to take place (the 2nd raising) and got into a good position to capture it with his camera. That he caught it at that magical moment is a stroke of talent and luck. He had no idea, since he didn't see the print until weeks later.
It was longer than minutes apart . Closer to two hours.
1
It would be good know who they really were, if possible. But as many of the other commenters point out, it is not the point of who they were but what they did. Sacrifice for all of us and each other. We need to keep that commitment to each other alive as long as possible since it is the foundation for our Nation. These guys did it, we can too.
It doesn’t really matter who the men in the picture are. They are every marine who did equally valiant things in the Pacific - most of whom didn’t get their picture taken.
4
The current politically correct solution is to saw Mr. Bradley's head off the monument in DC. Realistically its history he was at the flag raising, right or wrong leave it alone.
It was FDR who decided to publicize the Photo and sell War Bonds with it in February 1945, not Harry Truman. Let's at least get our Presidents right!
1
All the men who charged onto Iwo Jima were heroes to whom we owe our gratitude. Does it really matter now who the men in this fabulous photo were especially since they were probably not in the original photo? As "Sam" wrote: leave it alone. Let the legend be.
4
I can only say that whoever those brave men were in that picture it is still very important for what it represents in the overall scope of things. Some symbols are important. And they are extremely important to me. That picture had a lot of meaning to the American people when they first saw in newspapers in 1945. All I can now is thank you to all those who served in WWII and especially to those who died defending our nation.
4
Let's also remember that AP photographer Joe Rosenthal had to explain for almost half of his life that he didn't set up the flag raising photo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Rosenthal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Rosenthal
2
My father was on Iwo Jima, when I asked him about the flag raising when I was in a book club reading Flags of our Fathers, he said his response was: "Why are they raising the flag, we haven't won yet!".
1
Maj. Carpenter understands what is important.
The original flag raising was captured by Army photographer George Burns of Schenectady NY. The Rosenthal Photo is of a staged reenactment.
1
I've known a number of Marines over the years. Those I've known have been humble about combat, always been quick to give credit to others, and never have I heard one of them claim to have done something he didn't. In fact, most often they have not wanted to talk about their combat roles at all. John Bradley fought on Iwo Jima and survived it. Whether he is in a photograph or not is irrelevant. The iconic status of that photo represents his service regardless of the Marines who hold the flag. They hold that flag for all Marines.
1
This is like reading the real Mona Lisa's name, really wasn't Lisa.
The identity of the Marines who lifted our flag during the battle at Iwo Jima is important to their relatives. But it may fairly be said that all of our servicemen who waged that hellacious battle lifted the flag and all of them deserve our undying admiration, love and respect.
All of the men and women who fought for freedom in WW2 are in this picture. Including these, who could not know victory was near.
Louis Charlo from Montana was reputedly one of those raising that original flag. He was killed a few days later. He was a Native American from the Flathead Reservation. I do not see his name mentioned here at all.
1
Get in line. Before this is over there will be another 100 names to add to the list
1
This does matter if you think the son knowingly misrepresented or exaggerated his father's role and is only now coming clean because he is about to be exposed.
1
Bradley "said that his father had participated in raising a flag on Iwo Jima on Feb. 23, 1945, but had not participated in a second flag-raising the same day, which became the famous photograph." Actually, it was more dangerous to have participated in the first flag-raising than the second one. John Bradley's bravery and that of his comrades is not diminished one bit by being first in the line of enemy fire; indeed, their valor is enhanced. So what if the first attempt wasn't the one captured in the iconic photograph. God bless all the unsung, un-photographed heroes who gave their lives or were wounded on Iwo Jima and elsewhere during WW II.
6
The photgraph was staged from the very begining..by the photographer. I have the real one and the phony that is on the postage stamp.
The phony news created what they wanted not what happened.
The phony news created what they wanted not what happened.
Even if the flag raising in the infamous photo was staged and even if the men who actually raised the flag remain unidentified forever, the scores of lives lost and the deep personal sacrifices made by every American soldier unfortunate enough to have been on Iwo Jima at the time cannot be denied. RIP.
The Marines and Navy Corpsmen on Iwo Jima:
"Uncommon valor was a common virtue." S/F
"Uncommon valor was a common virtue." S/F
2
Pfc. Harold Shultz.
He deserves to be recognized with the rest He probably knew he was one of them, but kept silent for a lifetime. He probably figured no one would believe him.
He deserves to be recognized with the rest He probably knew he was one of them, but kept silent for a lifetime. He probably figured no one would believe him.
1
That the photo was a recreation should not be a surprise it has been my understanding for many years.
Who really cares who was in the photo? They were all heros in my book. Why a son would feel the need now to prove his father wasn't in the photo is beyond me.
It is others (and not the son) who "feel the need to prove" the father wasn't in the photo.
Well, this surprises me because my father was friends with Mr. Bradley's father, as they were both Iwo Jima veterans. My father, Sam, Sr., said Corpman Bradley was in the Rosenthal photo. I was also told that by Colonel Dave Severance, Captain of E Company, 2nd Battalion, 28th Marines whose company put that flag on Mt. Suribachi.
But, a lot was going on there then. So, maybe they were both wrong.
But, a lot was going on there then. So, maybe they were both wrong.
11
Is this really an important issue?
“We are humbled by the service and sacrifice of all who fought on Iwo Jima.”
JimF from Sewell
“We are humbled by the service and sacrifice of all who fought on Iwo Jima.”
JimF from Sewell
All the men in the photo are "our fathers"...
3
I was 4 years old when the battle for Iwo Jima was fought.`This photo has been part of my life for almost my entire life. I don't know who the men were in photo 1 or in the apparent "reshoot" in photo 2.
From my perspective, the photo is a symbol of American bravery in the face of an enemy who clearly wished to destroy the United States. What is real is that six thousand plus Americans died in the battle and the men in both photos represented them and their courage.
Please let's not put every moment of our history under a microscope. One thing is sure; without the sacrifices made by those who deserve to be called "the greatest generation", we would not be where any of us are today.
Please Americans, in these very divisive times, let's not lose sight of the big picture.
From my perspective, the photo is a symbol of American bravery in the face of an enemy who clearly wished to destroy the United States. What is real is that six thousand plus Americans died in the battle and the men in both photos represented them and their courage.
Please let's not put every moment of our history under a microscope. One thing is sure; without the sacrifices made by those who deserve to be called "the greatest generation", we would not be where any of us are today.
Please Americans, in these very divisive times, let's not lose sight of the big picture.
15
Mr. James Bradley, you can certainly take solace in the fact that, as are all the participants in the hand-to-hand battle on Iwo Jima, your Father was a true hero. The same goes for the Japanese soldiers, as well.
The "dog-faces", on both sides, were merely participants.
First flag? Second flag? It surely shouldn't matter to America!
The "dog-faces", on both sides, were merely participants.
First flag? Second flag? It surely shouldn't matter to America!
1
My mother was from a small town in New York and she said the mothers who received telegrams that their soldiers died in on Iwo Jima had no idea where it was -- the photograph tied an image to the name and provided at least some small level of comfort that their sacrifice meant as much as the invasion of Normandy. Do the names really matter? Not to us. But if I was a mother who lost her baby on Iwo Jima, I would cling to that possibility that I had a photograph of my son while he was still alive and I would begrudge no other mother for thinking the same of her baby.
Does it really matter what their names are anymore? Each man paid a price to fight for his country. The names of the six are Everyman. The grandfather of my daughter is standing on that mountain watching that flag be raised twice. He could easily have been one of the six. My uncle, a Marine, also fought in the Pacific, on some little spot on the map. These two men are foremost in my thoughts when I see this photograph. Their names are on my heart. I am grateful for the service of every man who fought.
1
trying hard to imagine "who cares?"...staged propaganda
Small brain, no combat military service, certainly not a Marine. Keep trying as an antidote to your meaningless life.
It's a great photo, decades old, that captured the spirit of the moment... now let's just move on. Questions would have been best asked back then.
15
It's called propaganda.
6
Really Shannon?
Typical Canuk.
It's an AMERICAN icon, we ALL raised that flag!
14
QWhether intentional or not, Mr. Rosenthal did not show any of the men's faces in the photograph. Indeed, ALL the Americans on Iwo Jima are represented in that photograph.
It is a Marine Corps icon, plain and simple. For the rest of us, it's a reminder why the Marine Corps matters.
There were two flag raisings on Mount Suribachi over a short period of time. Anyone who participated i either gets full credit as well as everyone else who fought on Iwo Jima.
17
Who cares? Print the legend!
6
The icon image at first defined a moment and a battle in a grand struggle, and which instilled a sense of great thanks and gratitude owed. Having grown up and learned a fair amount about that battle and many of the stories surrounding both of the photographs as well as the actually assault, the iconic image has come to define the struggle and sacrifice of the whole Pacific theater, and still instills a sense of great thanks and gratitude owed.
14
YES!!
What difference does it make as to the individual identities of the soldiers? I just finished watching a special on CNN about the killing of Osama Bin Laden, and Admiral McClosky commended Obama on visiting and congratulating ALL the troops who had fought for the US after the attack of Bin Laden. No one asked who pulled the trigger, or which pilot flew which helicopter, or who entered the compound first. The Iwo Jima memorial represents all those who fought valiantly for the honor of our country and in defense of the standards we represent. I would hope that that reminder will carry us through and come to the fore again as we examine our values, vote in our elections, and protect our fellow citizens on the battlefields, on the highways, in our cities and in our hearts.
27
Many people are saying that all this research doesn't matter, what difference does it make, etc.
So, if this doesn't matter, why not just say it: yes, the photo was staged and is not a historical record? That's all.
So, if this doesn't matter, why not just say it: yes, the photo was staged and is not a historical record? That's all.
4
Because it was not staged by those Marines who raised it. I interviewed Joe Rosenthal once who explained exactly what happened, and it denigrates him to suggest that there's any fakery involved. As far as why another Marine didn't step forward, it's quite possible, if he existed, that he was killed on Iwo Jima. That said, I hope all controversy goes away and we're simply left to remember the incredible bravery and the horrific losses our country experienced in World War II. And we, as a country, were the lucky ones.
@Steelmen,
Sorry, I didn't read your interview, but I have no ill thoughts about Joe Rosenthal, or those Marines! Of course they are heroes!
I just cannot imagine an explanation how any unique historic event can happen more than once.
Sorry, I didn't read your interview, but I have no ill thoughts about Joe Rosenthal, or those Marines! Of course they are heroes!
I just cannot imagine an explanation how any unique historic event can happen more than once.
It shouldn't matter who's in the photograph, at least not to most of us. I understand why it matters to Mr. Bradley. What matters, and yes, this doesn't take away anything from the people in the picture and maybe even from those who used it for propaganda purposes (the government), is the character of the photographer. Just as doctors have a hippocratic oath to uphold certain ethical standards, photojournalists are expected to uphold theirs, too. Recreating a photograph, even of an event that took place spontaneously just seconds ago, and not clearly stating it was staged, is forbidden in the world of photojournalism. A photographer who'd get caught doing it would have his/her reputation tarnished forever.
2
The flag was raised by a nation. Any distraction that loses sight of that doesn't understand its meaning.
35
John Bradley appeared to be a very honorable man who never spoke to the media about the flag raising or his Valor (he was awarded the Navy Cross). if he wasn't one of the flag raisers, I would assume he would have corrected the assumption in the years after WW2 as he did not want to be associated with it as Rene Gagnon did. Furthermore, the Marine who it is claimed was a participant never came forward. Once again, logic has it that this individual would have tried to correct the record long ago
2
The first flag on Mt Suribachi was photographed by Marine Staff Sergeant Louis Lowery working for Leatherneck Magazine.
Not to take anything away from the magnificently composed photo by Rosenthal, but the event was known in advance- that makes a huge difference when deciding how to shoot something. The Marines had decided to replace the first flag with a larger one- the subject of the famous photo. Rosenthal did not stage the picture but had advance knowledge of what was going to happen.
In my youth I was a Military Photographer for the US Army- fortunately during peacetime- and the military combat photographers are often overlooked. They are in all branches of our Armed Services and have recorded a lot of history that would have otherwise been missed.
Here is an article in Stars and Stripes telling of them and their service.
http://www.stripes.com/news/combat-camera-troops-put-their-lives-at-risk...
Not to take anything away from the magnificently composed photo by Rosenthal, but the event was known in advance- that makes a huge difference when deciding how to shoot something. The Marines had decided to replace the first flag with a larger one- the subject of the famous photo. Rosenthal did not stage the picture but had advance knowledge of what was going to happen.
In my youth I was a Military Photographer for the US Army- fortunately during peacetime- and the military combat photographers are often overlooked. They are in all branches of our Armed Services and have recorded a lot of history that would have otherwise been missed.
Here is an article in Stars and Stripes telling of them and their service.
http://www.stripes.com/news/combat-camera-troops-put-their-lives-at-risk...
15
Yes. Service combat photography has added countless images but the shooters don't get credit. I read this comment and thought of the photo of a Japanese bomb exploding in the deck of a us carrier. Great image. Btw the photographer was killed by the blast.
I really question the necessity of spending time and government money on this. There is no apparent fraud involved, is there? I am so sick of everybody playing "Gotcha" when there are genuine problems in the world. Why don't the Marines look into all the young women who fialed to survive Marine officer training and why.?
13
Leave well alone Bradly got credit let it be!
1
You obviously miss the point of the article or the reason why the Mr. Bradley came forward about the info. It's nothing as cynical as a "gotcha" moment. It's just for historical accuracy. He wrote a book called "Flags of Our Fathers" that documented his father as being part of the iconic picture. Since he doesn't believe it was his father, he is letting the information be known. This has not who participated in the war. It's only about that moment in time that became iconic. And since there is a memorial that replicates the photograph, it would be good to have the names of the soldiers accurate.
Those women failed because they could not hack the physical and mental standards.
In my mind, this development does not diminish the content of the book, Flag of our Fathers. The book's account of those who raised the flag may not turn out to be *factual*, but the book itself is still *true.*
5
Does it really matter at this point?
3
Does it really matter now, several decades later?
Each and everyone of those brave Americans contributed more in a single day, or hour, than what the most of us will do to these United States in a lifetime.
In this immigrant's mind and heart, they were ALL heroes who did, so very easily and without any airs, that the current generations cannot even imagine of doing. Ever.
So, let it be. Instead, try to emulate just one of these heroes, any one of them, just for a few days of our lives. In just a few small measures that these glorious individuals delivered every hour.
Each and everyone of those brave Americans contributed more in a single day, or hour, than what the most of us will do to these United States in a lifetime.
In this immigrant's mind and heart, they were ALL heroes who did, so very easily and without any airs, that the current generations cannot even imagine of doing. Ever.
So, let it be. Instead, try to emulate just one of these heroes, any one of them, just for a few days of our lives. In just a few small measures that these glorious individuals delivered every hour.
22
What next? Washington did not cross the Delaware? Paul Revere's ride is an urban myth? Get a life, people. It doesn't matter exactly who was portrayed, it's an iconic image of the marvelous spiritual force still present in the US at that time. I remember , I was a little girl at that time, how inspiring the idea of our armed forces were.
10
Well, we should be pretty sure that Washington did not cross the Delaware standing up heroically in the bow, nor did they stop for several hours to have an enormous painting done of their crossing. Also that Paul Revere was a pretty good silversmith.
1
There has been a controversy over the picture and the servicemen who took part in it. It started right from the red room when Rosenthal was asked if the photo was posed and he agreed mistaken it with another one. Then came up the controversy that it was a second flag. Then about the identities when one of the risers pointed the wrong members. To me it is the most beautiful photograph that had ever been taken for it reflects the brotherhood and the military force and strength of the US Armed Forces. Sincerely, it'd be good to know who really were those men to give them and their families the deserved recognition but as someone pointed in a comment, let us just picture all and every servicemen of any branch in it and give the recognition well deserved for their sacrifices and duty.
22
... Um, about the Pentagon's exhaustive internal investigation into the American bombing and strafing of the Hospital in Kunduz...
20
Dear Paul Cohen,
What? Completely unrelated and relatively unimportant. Accidental and friendly-fire casualties happen in every war, this was just another in many thousands of such incidents, and this one people who made mistakes were actually punished. And the Taliban gleefully attack hospitals, schools, groups of children, and anyone in range, so don't go thinking we're the bad guys in that conflict.
At any rate it has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic.
What? Completely unrelated and relatively unimportant. Accidental and friendly-fire casualties happen in every war, this was just another in many thousands of such incidents, and this one people who made mistakes were actually punished. And the Taliban gleefully attack hospitals, schools, groups of children, and anyone in range, so don't go thinking we're the bad guys in that conflict.
At any rate it has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic.
4
You mean the accidental bombing of a medical facility not marked with the Red Crescent or Red Cross identifying it as a hospital as mandated by international law. Nice try pal!
1
A couple of lines from a classic John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart western, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, seem very apropos.
John Wayne's character has died and and at the funeral Ransom Stoddard, Jimmy Stewart's character, now an aging US Senator and the man credited with killing the evil Valance (when he was a young attorney) when, in fact it was Wayne who killed him, is speaking to Maxwell Scott, the editor of the newspaper, after having revealed the truth to the editor:
Stoddard: "You're not going to use the story, Mr. Scott?"
Scott: "No, sir. This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
John Wayne's character has died and and at the funeral Ransom Stoddard, Jimmy Stewart's character, now an aging US Senator and the man credited with killing the evil Valance (when he was a young attorney) when, in fact it was Wayne who killed him, is speaking to Maxwell Scott, the editor of the newspaper, after having revealed the truth to the editor:
Stoddard: "You're not going to use the story, Mr. Scott?"
Scott: "No, sir. This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
22
My understanding is that the flag used in the first photo is significantly smaller than the one used in the second. Further, that the second raising was not spontaneous but staged, hence the use of a larger flag. At any rate, the photo remains arguably the most iconic from all of WWII. Why the Marines feel it necessary to clarify who was or wasn't involved 60 years after the fact is another issue altogether.
11
The notion that the second flag raising was 'staged' is an urban legend with no basis in truth. The first flag was too small to be seen at a distance and the men were ordered to raise a second larger flag. Rosenthal was fortunate in being in the right place at the right time.
3
They wanted a flag that was big enough to be seen from a distance, so they took down the first flag and put up the second. The photographer happened to push the shutter release at just the right time. He had one shot and was lucky.
3
It was, and is, a symbol. It doesn't matter, except to Mr. Bradley the identity,
They were heroes, all that fought and died on that godforsaken bit of volcanic sand.
Thanks guys.
They were heroes, all that fought and died on that godforsaken bit of volcanic sand.
Thanks guys.
26
There's always been something unfair about the flag photo. Although the men who raised the flag fought heroically, and three died on Iwo Jima, the raising of the flag was not an act of heroism. So maybe it's not a bad thing that one of them may remain unknown. This way other descendants may think it possible their father or grandfather is one of the men in the photo.
8
Regardless if it is an image of the spontaneous raising of the flag at that spot on Mount Suribachi, or if the original act was seen by a photographer and requested that six servicemen repeat that remarkable moment, it occurred on the same day, minutes or hours after the great sacrifice of American troops led to a devastating battle on Iwo Jima. The photograph wasn't produced in Photoshop. It wasn't a fiction created in the imagination of the photographer. The soldiers, whoever they were, represented all who fougt and died, were wounded, or survived to fight and possibly die in battles that would follow. It remains a beautiful, emotional moment captured in a moment and place in which few would choose to be. I don't know of many other images that inspire more respect for our troops engaged in any armed conflict, or captures a moment of victory that inspires the men and women who now serve, or have served, in the armed forces.
104
It wasn't a matter of repeating the flag raising so the photographer could get a shot. They were replacing a small flag with a larger one that could be seen for a long distance. The photographer was lucky to get the shot because it happened quickly.
2
Here here
Does not matter. As a photojournalist you cannot recreate it and NOT acknowledge it.
The military budget is through the roof and this is what desk jockeys are spending it on. This sort of research costs a lot of money and is of little value to anyone. If private persons want to do historic and scholarly research, I applaud them.
4
Arguably the greatest insult to American military forces is the instant fictionalization of their contributions. In later generations, the hype and hoopla of publicity was a way of losing wars, too. WW2 was a media war too, and acknowledgement of real hardships. Allied military blunders and personal ordeals was way down the food chain compared to iconic imagery and rhetoric. Who did what DOES matter in this case in particular; Iwo Jima was no stroll in the park, and people taking credit for it should have earned it. The guys in this photo aren't to blame for any hype. They were on Iwo Jima, and media legend says that this pic was staged after an initial flag raising. That first flag would have meant a lot to the grunts who'd been getting pounded from Suribachi for days and lost a lot of friends from its fire. So can we get this tale in context, please, after all these years?
2
What media legend implies or states the second flag raising was "staged"?
The urban myth was that the original flag raising, rather tactlessly, was done without photographers. Obviously you can't have a war without photographers, so the redid it, and the classic image was the result. They found a few grunts in the area, and set it up. It's in a few histories of Iwo Jima, which I read years ago.
Having had an Uncle captured in the Philippines who barely survived the Corriggedor march and many long, horrible months as a prisoner and a Father who was involved in WWI and WWII, I have no interest in the correct identification of the individual Marines involved in the flag raising on Suribachi. It is enough that their heroism saved our free world from the scourge of dictators and murderers and the picture of the flag raising certainly raised the spirit of all who feared for their freedom in those years- particularly those of us who lived in California. I fear now that those who criticize from hindsight have no clue as to the real sense of desperation the country was in.
55
Since I was a child, born in 1949, I remember seeing this photograph for the first time and it has always moved me..I saw the Marine Corp memorial in Washington in 1958 when I was nine years old and it awed me then too...probably for the sheer magnitude......I think it is fitting that you cannot see the faces of the flag raisers.. as they symbolize not only all the Marines who served, but also all GI's in all theaters... I remember wondering who was the Marine at the base of the pole...And read "Flags" eagerly..I'm glad to know that his name was Harlan Block, who died on Iwo, as did Franklin Sousley and Mike Strank fellow flag raisers....May they rest in peace......
Magnificently expressed.
It doesn't matter who raised the flag. All of the Marines present were heroes. Let this rest. Eugene Phillips, Lieutenant Colonal, Ret.
55
Absolutely right sir, and if I may say so, thank you for your service.
Does it matter who they were? They were what we were all about. Whether in either the first flag raising or the more celebrated second image, they were the representatives of all of the people who risked their lives to defeat the powers of darkness, the Nazis and Japanese. I believe each or most of the flag raisers died subsequently in combat, noble sacrifices indeed. My country right or wrong? Those depicted represented all that was right, not only for our country, but for human civilization.
12
I disagree with the commenters who are saying here that it makes no difference at all whether James Bradley's father was or wasn't one of the six Marines in the photograph. I think it makes at least a bit of a difference: to the extent that the popularity (and credibility) of Bradley's battle account derived from Bradley's emotional proximity to the event -- from his status as the son of one of the men in the photographed flag-raising -- it surely isn't irrelevant that he wasn't actually the son of one of the men in the flag-raising.
This is not to say that the revelation seriously undermines Bradley's overall narrative, and it is certainly not to say anything at all about the courage of all of the Marines involved in the Iwo Jima effort.
But it is to say, at a minimum, that some of the success of Bradley's own account may have been grounded in something that wasn't true. Putting it differently, if Bradley had written this account but had not been the son of one of the pictured Marines, would his account have gotten the attention it did? Would the book have been published by as prominent a publisher? Would Clint Eastwood have made it into a movie?
These are not earth-shattering questions, but neither are they irrelevant. Bradley's account has had a major role in shaping the public's understanding of these military events.
This is not to say that the revelation seriously undermines Bradley's overall narrative, and it is certainly not to say anything at all about the courage of all of the Marines involved in the Iwo Jima effort.
But it is to say, at a minimum, that some of the success of Bradley's own account may have been grounded in something that wasn't true. Putting it differently, if Bradley had written this account but had not been the son of one of the pictured Marines, would his account have gotten the attention it did? Would the book have been published by as prominent a publisher? Would Clint Eastwood have made it into a movie?
These are not earth-shattering questions, but neither are they irrelevant. Bradley's account has had a major role in shaping the public's understanding of these military events.
41
Mr. John Bradley would be proud of his son for always seeking for the truth. Mr. James Bradley is proud of his father, who had participated in raising the flag on Iwo Jima when he must. Great men have no need for bending the light of truth.
6
I guess history will be rewritten many more times as we reinterpret the facts and our understanding of what happened that day. Regardless they all wore the uniform and fought for what they believe was right. Many made the ultimate sacrifice. They will remain heroes. The reporting has changed so much too - I cannot imagine the NYT using similar headlines anymore - "our Carrier aircraft slash at Tokyo again" - meaning our American forces. Today the press relishes in some pseudo-neutrality as if it gives them more credibility. I still remember on 9/11 the headlines was "America under attack" - Not "Our Country is under attack". So the press will weave this story to suit their needs many more times but the men who fought that day will remain as heroes.
4
yes and the World Trade Center tower's coming down was also staged for a photographic and media event...why must we endlessly litigate significant events to discredit our culture of beliefs for no good reason..come on Ted Cruz's father killed Kennedy didn't you hear
2
Does it really make a difference as to exactly who was in the photograph? After all, the photograph that is burned into everyone's mind was staged. Yes, it is based on the actual event but it is a representation. And, are not the men participating in the actual event along with those in the photograph representations of all those men killed and wounded to reach the summit?
It's nice to correct the record but it is the event that is truly important.
It's nice to correct the record but it is the event that is truly important.
2
Of course it was staged, I've always assumed it was even though I wasn't aware that there was a second raising of the flag. My Dad had a book of WW2 art. I also studied art so of course I see the classic golden triangle in the photo. Only a fool would believe that a photo can't be staged as is any other art. John Singer Sargent comes to mind and then the photos of gas-blind men being led in file. Propaganda requires staged events so that we can choose to believe we are on the 'good side'. This works for whatever countries are participating. Nobody wants to suspect for a moment that the person they care about is fighting for the 'evil side', it isn't just mothers, sisters, wives, or daughters either any more is it? When we send our loved ones to war, to die, we want to believe there will be a higher value than just putting money in arms manufacturers pockets or shoring up some 2-bit politician voters' appeal. I knew and understood all of this in the 60s. That's why I did not support the draft nor our people being sent to waste their lives in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, nor not now any other Middle East County. It is still a great piece of art, regardless of the propaganda intended or the models used to produce it. It also served its intent then and continues to do so. Must like all military monuments.
2
I can't believe you actually brag about not having supported "our people being sent to waste their lives in Vietnam..." What kind of sad American citizen are you? I served there like so many others, and I can assure you that we appreciated the support of many of our countrymen. A number of young Marines in my platoon told me how discouraging it was to read of the protesters who chose to disparage them as people, not just the war but THEM!
Photographer Joe Rosenthal insisted always that it was not staged. As I recall, there was confusion right at the beginning about who was shown in the photo, to the point where one family was mistakenly informed that their son was depicted. Simply calling it staged does not make it so. And what an insult to the combat photographer who shot it.
Two flag-raising events happened, one of them was photographed. I cannot imagine that anyone cares about the identities of the Marines. They represent every Marine, don't they?
12
The first was photographed, too. The composition of the photos was not the sort that captures the imagination. One of the shots of the first flag raising shows a Marine in the foreground with his M1 carbine watching for any Japanese soldiers that might attack because the peak was anything but secure when they raised the flag. You can find the photo on Wikipedia by searching for Iwo Jima first flag raising.
Interestingly, the photo caption indicates that John Bradley participated in the first flag raising, too.
Interestingly, the photo caption indicates that John Bradley participated in the first flag raising, too.
2
When I first read the headline I was like why is Mr. Bradley making a big deal of his mistake? And then I got it. Thank you, Mr. Bradley, for being publicly honest and honoring the soldiers in the photograph. You have my deepest respect.
9
According to the article he didn't become publicly honest the Marine Corps opened an inquiry. Doesn't get my deepest respect.
Yes, I agree with your assessment of Mr. Bradley and I do think it does matter in the sense that if Mr. Bradley's dad was not one of the Marines, the identity of the unknown Marine would be important to HIS family. Yes, this symbolizes the 6500+ men who lost their lives in this battle, yes this represents the many who died in the war against Japan, but it is also personal--these were real men, in a real situation, even if this was a second raising of the flag.
1
I am sure their names matter to the families but, in reality, that photograph is much more of a symbol simply representing ALL Marines who served in the Pacific and our Armed Forces in general. Thank you to ALL of them!
15
The report says that the picture shows six Marines.
But when I look at the picture, I see more than 6,500 Marines.
But when I look at the picture, I see more than 6,500 Marines.
48
Nothing earthshaking can come from new information about that flag raising, as it has long been known that the photo did not depict the FIRST raising of the American Flag over the island. It matters not who the actual participants in the photo were, as every American who took part in that important event in American History, was a true hero. May they rest in peace!
16
It's just a better picture of a great moment, not a misrepresentation of it. The raising of the flag at Iwo Jima is a moment that should inspire us and this picture served that purpose. Were it not for the picture, people might not remember the great sacrifices made on Iwo Jima.
4
It is strange, and perhaps a testament to the enduring legacy of this image, that the identity of the Marines in the classic photo is being questioned 71 years later. Although the photograph and its depiction of sacrifice and courage transcend the issue of individuality, we may never settle beyond question the identity of the Marine or sailor who faces away from the camera. With all due respect to Mr. Bradley's son, however, the evidence that John Bradley was not in the photograph appears thin. Mr. Bradley was a honorable man, who probably would have corrected the record if indeed he was not depicted in Rosenthal's famous photograph. Nobody who appeared in the photo or served with him ever suggested that Mr. Bradley was not portrayed in the photo. The fact that he was a corpsman and was wearing webbed gear that contained rifle ammunition is not dispositive. He had accompanied Marines who fought their way to the summit of Surabachi and Iwo Jima was a ferocious battle. Corpsmen probably were armed or carried ammunition, if only for survival.
1
Major Carpenter has it exactly right: “We are humbled by the service and sacrifice of all who fought on Iwo Jima.” The Rosenthal photo and Felix DeWeldon's sculpture capture the essence of the United States Marine.
Let's not forget, either, that this service and sacrifice saved the lives of more than 24,000 US aircrew members whose B-29 and other aircraft made emergency landings on Iwo -- some of them even before the island was completely secured.
Let's not forget, either, that this service and sacrifice saved the lives of more than 24,000 US aircrew members whose B-29 and other aircraft made emergency landings on Iwo -- some of them even before the island was completely secured.
4
Who cares! The point is that the flag raising happened. The boys in that photo were courageous and some died in battle. Even if the identities are mistaken, the focus should be on the courage of the Marines. The flag raisers represent all Narie s, Army, Navy and Army Air core service members in WWII who laid down their lives in defence of human dignity. That is the lesson of Iwo Jima... And that is what should be remembered, honoured and part of the history of WWII.
4
The fact that Mr. Bradley's father did raise a flag on Iwo Jima speaks to his right to be part of the memorial. So when the legend become fact print the fact.
4
I can still remember, as a very little boy, being told by my mother that the iconic photograph was staged and not spontaneous. She felt that this somehow detracted from the victory and the valor of our troops. I don't see it that way, myself.
As to who is actually in the photograph -- who cares after all these years? Don't we all have more important things to worry about?
As to who is actually in the photograph -- who cares after all these years? Don't we all have more important things to worry about?
27
Oh, it matters. It's our history as a nation.
If a nation forgets, ignores, downplays, overplays or does not act as a steward of its history, then how can future generations know and believe?
Then, the only "reality" that matters to a generation of Americans is based solely on what they experience, what they know, what they see - - and when this nation stands tall it does so because we today stand on the shoulders of our ancestors who went before us. If we don't know truthfully and as accurately as possible their history and experiences, we will become lost.
I believe. Semper Fi.
If a nation forgets, ignores, downplays, overplays or does not act as a steward of its history, then how can future generations know and believe?
Then, the only "reality" that matters to a generation of Americans is based solely on what they experience, what they know, what they see - - and when this nation stands tall it does so because we today stand on the shoulders of our ancestors who went before us. If we don't know truthfully and as accurately as possible their history and experiences, we will become lost.
I believe. Semper Fi.
apparently, your fine mother did not serve in the Pacific Theater., so she wouldn't know regardless.
1
The 2 most important things to remember about this photograph are:
1. The Times, instead of blandly stating "Rosenthal brushed back accusations that it had been staged" should have noted that there was a contemporaneous video which proves beyond doubt that the photo was not staged: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-xGKIn_cnM
Rosenthal was lucky to have caught the memorable split second moment shown in the video. Enhancing the video may help answer the question of whether Bradley participated.
2. Anyone who fought on Iwo Jima faced constant severe danger--3 of the flag raisers did not survive the battle. This photo memorializes their sacrifice.
Those who brush aside the idea that an invasion of Japan would have cost enormous casualties on both sides should read about what the battle of Iwo Jima, one small island, cost--and then multiply it by 100 or more.
1. The Times, instead of blandly stating "Rosenthal brushed back accusations that it had been staged" should have noted that there was a contemporaneous video which proves beyond doubt that the photo was not staged: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-xGKIn_cnM
Rosenthal was lucky to have caught the memorable split second moment shown in the video. Enhancing the video may help answer the question of whether Bradley participated.
2. Anyone who fought on Iwo Jima faced constant severe danger--3 of the flag raisers did not survive the battle. This photo memorializes their sacrifice.
Those who brush aside the idea that an invasion of Japan would have cost enormous casualties on both sides should read about what the battle of Iwo Jima, one small island, cost--and then multiply it by 100 or more.
9
Dear DSM,
I'm sorry but that video, clearly assembled well after the battle, doesn't show that the second flag raising was not staged. It shows them doing it, sure, but the idea is that our flag was raised well before this photo, and then the photographer and video crew said, hey we missed that, could you guys raise a flag again up on that hill, or words to that effect. That's the notion of it being 'staged', that it happened in order to get photographed and not spontaneously. Nor did it indicate victory as the fighting went on for some days afterwards.
I'm sorry but that video, clearly assembled well after the battle, doesn't show that the second flag raising was not staged. It shows them doing it, sure, but the idea is that our flag was raised well before this photo, and then the photographer and video crew said, hey we missed that, could you guys raise a flag again up on that hill, or words to that effect. That's the notion of it being 'staged', that it happened in order to get photographed and not spontaneously. Nor did it indicate victory as the fighting went on for some days afterwards.
You are certainly correct that it did not indicate victory--indeed, fighting went on not just "or some days afterwards", but weeks, with 3 of the unquestionned flag raisers (and 1 who was originally identified as raising it) being killed. The flag raising was wildly cheered by the Marines at the time because it was a very visible sign of progress after days of brutal fighting.
Most of the false "staging" claims were that the men stood still and posed. It was always clear that it was the second flag raising--there are lots of photos of the first.
There is also abundant evidence that the second flag was raised not as a photo stunt, but to get a larger, more visible flag raised--and to allow the Marine regiment to keep the original flag while allowing the larger flag to be grabbed by the Secretary of the Navy, who had witnessed the original flag raising off shore.
Most of the false "staging" claims were that the men stood still and posed. It was always clear that it was the second flag raising--there are lots of photos of the first.
There is also abundant evidence that the second flag was raised not as a photo stunt, but to get a larger, more visible flag raised--and to allow the Marine regiment to keep the original flag while allowing the larger flag to be grabbed by the Secretary of the Navy, who had witnessed the original flag raising off shore.
Whether Mr. Bradley's father was in the photo misses the point. My great uncle, who died in the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October 1944, after whom I was named by my father, his nephew, 13 years after my uncle's death, was in this iconic photo. Every soldier who served and lived or died was in this photo. As I was growing up, knowing my history, this photo, probably more than other image, symbolized not only the sacrifices of my uncles and others, but the historical fact that, without apologies, we prevailed in World War II. It was "our" flag and those were "our" boys planting it on that hill. I remember when pride mattered and those events in which we could as a nation justifiably feel collective pride. This photo will always remind me of those days and instills confidence in me that when called upon we will always deliver when needed.
11
In every culture from the Ancient Greeks on down, myths have defined national identity. They are convenient untruths based on a patriotic readings of historic events. The minutiae (truth) gets in the way of the legend. Did the actual soldiers get short shrift? Possibly. But the purpose of the photograph and the ensuing life it assumed wasn't to canonize the individuals; it was to glorify the concept of America. It can be argued that Bradley is a Homer for our times. And regardless, no U.S. Marine would shout "It was me, not him." It would always be "We."
65
Amen to that!
1
Really. You don't know too many marines, do you?
Part of the photograph's brilliance is that none of their faces are visible, their identities not apparent. These men were stand-ins that represent so many brave servicemen that were called to battle.
5
Had the pleasure of meeting Joe Rosenthal and asked him to sign a copy of the photograph in our possession. He said: "Go find a Marine who was there, and get HIM to sign it..." As far as we're concerned every man who set foot on that island or who supplied or tended to them from offshore should be granted the status of National Treasure.
3
The image and the effort remain the same. But why this matters is that somebody deserves to be identified and known as one of the brave Americans who was there that day. It isn't events that make history. It is people.
1
I have always considered the fact the soldiers are "faceless" to be one of the defining elements of the photo. It reflected better than any description the anonymity of battle, and the essential need for selflessness among warriors.
194
They're marines. not soldiers.
I'm sorry but while I still get a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes (and I was on the verge of being born!) from the heartbreak of seeing Bobby Thompson hitting that shot heard round the world, beating my beloved Dodgers in 1951, no new spin on that Flag raising at Iwo Jima can diminish the pride and love I have of being an American, and the sacrifice of men like those depicted in that photograph, and my five uncles who bravely fought our enemies in World War II. Real or not it represents much of what is good about our nation. G-d Bless America!
2
This revelation would have made little difference to John "Jack" Bradley, my mother's first cousin. He never, ever talked about Iwo Jima, only to say that "the heroes are the guys who didn't come back...."
12
My WW II Vet father of the European theater and Patton's Army, used to say the the true heroes of the war were the tragicalluy fallen young soldiers and those gravely wounded, he said the real lucky ones were those who came back mentally and physicaly in one piece and who went on to live out their lives with wife and family in the post war years. Yet he lived with the memories of the horrors of war of which he never shared with his young sons who were too young to have appreciated a father's war experiences to any meassuable degree.
28
My father also served in Europe. He spoke only (and rarely) of the non combat things he did there, until just before he died when he shared some with my son. I am so sorry that I never thought to probe deeper while he was alive. He and his buddy were standing a foot from one another - a sniper killed his buddy and best friend. A toss of the dice, nothing more. Then back to the fighting and more of the same.
My father flew Forts out of England (his plane was named "Hang the Expense") and rarely talked about his experiences until I was in high school. He spent his later years at air shows, sitting under a wing of one of those great aircraft and enthralling young folks with his memories. It was the first time many of the kids had heard much about WWII as it is only a brief footnote in history classes now.
My favorite story of his was a happy one, though. He and the flight crew would save up milk and sugar rations, mix up a batch of ice cream and circle the field at altitude to freeze it (Flying Forts weren't heated) and then treat everyone at the field.
My favorite story of his was a happy one, though. He and the flight crew would save up milk and sugar rations, mix up a batch of ice cream and circle the field at altitude to freeze it (Flying Forts weren't heated) and then treat everyone at the field.
What do you do here? If you find out that it's not your dad, then what? I guess its closure for you, the photograph is more then about who's in it, individually, it's about Americans, Marines, and the determination to fight for the United States! I'm afraid no-one wins here!!
The days are coming when even those who heard about the war from servicemen who were there, will be gone. My grandfather told me of the perilous transatlantic crossings he made aboard ship during wartime. He loved serving in the Navy and did so for many years. But as I look around me, those of us who heard those firsthand accounts are getting gray.
I hope succeeding generations will know and appreciate the sacrifices these young people made, and which is so striking depicted in the Iwo Jima photo.
I hope succeeding generations will know and appreciate the sacrifices these young people made, and which is so striking depicted in the Iwo Jima photo.
45
Coming soon, "Flags of YOUR Fathers"
Honestly, recast the statue and put both groups in it, they are all heroes.
Honestly, recast the statue and put both groups in it, they are all heroes.
Noble of Mr. Bradley to try to set the record straight, I imagine his father would be very proud of him.
62
I agree. In this day and age, when we accept politicians lying 50% of the time as reasonable -- see recent NY Times articles about the Ds and Rs in this election -- and celebrities often lie to garner more publicity, it is refreshing to see someone try to set the record straight, even at a potential detriment to himself and his father.
It's all well and good for people to see this and say it doesn't matter and all respectable WW2 veterans should be honored, after the fact, but quite another had the author continued to insist or cover up anything that might detract from his prior views.
It's all well and good for people to see this and say it doesn't matter and all respectable WW2 veterans should be honored, after the fact, but quite another had the author continued to insist or cover up anything that might detract from his prior views.
5
It is of insignificant and small importance whatever the research suggests. The picture and statues are more symbolic of the events at Iwo Jima than anything else. That sacrifice of American lives can never be diminished.
228
It is a symbol, in the same sense as The Last Supper, so take it for the message it delivers.
1
Yes, Donahue...."truth" and "details" matter little to some.
He's a hero. He was a Marine. who cares?
101
I agree! Who cares! All of these marines, whether they were in the first picture or the second picture or no picture are all heroes!
10
Bradley's father was a Navy corpsman, not a Marine. But whether he was in the first or second flag raising, I'd still buy him beer all night.
6
Will properly identifying the Marines in the photo or discovering that the photo was indeed "staged" detract one iota from the courage and sacrifice of those who served and lost their lives at Iwo Jima? Will it detract from the service of the millions of American men and women who served in the United States "last just war?"
I think not. This is a question purely for antiquarians and military specialists.
I think not. This is a question purely for antiquarians and military specialists.
218
I was about to say the same thing. Thank you.
Not any more than destroying a piece of fabric, aka "the flag" would detract from how great this nation is. Although flag-waving fascists would beg to differ about that "symbol."
I would agree. In boot camp and Warrant Officer school we saw that photo as the ultimate sacrifice that sometimes must be made, not just for your country, but for your comrades. I saw it over and over in Vietnam, an unjust war, and my father saw it in the Pacific on Iwo and many other islands. It won't, or should not make a difference. Still historians must do their job, as well.
USMC WOI, Vietnam 1969-70.
USMC WOI, Vietnam 1969-70.
What difference does it make? The flag was raised by all the men who fought and died in that epic battle, whether on land or at sea, including my dad who was on a US navy ship off the coast during that battle.
80
Dear Bob,
I agree but with a slight correction; the flag stood for the victors, and more of the vanquished died on Iwo Jima, nearly all the Japanese there. And certainly their side was in the wrong, but those men fought bravely too, and had no choice but to be there. They knew they would lose but never gave up, and I think their courage is overlooked by most.
I agree but with a slight correction; the flag stood for the victors, and more of the vanquished died on Iwo Jima, nearly all the Japanese there. And certainly their side was in the wrong, but those men fought bravely too, and had no choice but to be there. They knew they would lose but never gave up, and I think their courage is overlooked by most.
1
The breaking news headline is pretty misleading. "New doubts have emerged about the iconic image of U.S. Marines raising a flag over Iwo Jima in World War II" suggests that there's some question as to whether it actually happened when/where it is thought to have happened.
There's only doubt about the identity of one person in the photograph. Very different.
There's only doubt about the identity of one person in the photograph. Very different.
70
But when has the media been concerned about misleading headlines. It's all about grabbing our attention and getting more papers sold, or more views to sell their ads. I think the term these days is "clickbait ".
2
That's because headlines are "hooks" with a little hyperbole to reel 'em in to read the whole piece...which this one did rather well to the both of us.
Yes, this is a striking example of a headline not matching the story.
In the end, aren't we better off not knowing who the individuals were? The battle, like WWII itself was a collective effort.
165
Couldn't have said it better, doesnt matter who it is, nor who it isn't.
6
Well it hardly matters that Mr. Bradley's father wasn't in the photograph; his father was there at the invasion of Iwo Jima, and probably did take place in the initial flag-raising that wasn't photographed.
In this photo, not one of the soldiers can be directly identified, not even their ranks, and since the battle wasn't quite over, some of those pictured might have died that day. Their identities aren't important though, what's more important is the symbolism of the staged photo. It's the ancient European conceit that a flag means ownership (as in the Eddie Izzard bit: "hey, this is our land, you Brits can't just grab it."; "Haven't got a flag though have you? So it's ours now.")
So at the time this was great for all sorts of jingoistic propaganda, particularly after the war when we were wielding our nuclear supremacy like a vast sledgehammer. But looking back it just highlights the tragedy of the clashing cultures that couldn't understand eachother.
The movie "Flags of Our Fathers" was terrific, but I think the companion "Letters from Iwo Jima" was far more powerful in impact, and if anyone sees one they should see both. They show the terrible effects of patriarchal, power-driven societies, and the outcome of unwillingness to compromise with or understand ones enemies.
In this photo, not one of the soldiers can be directly identified, not even their ranks, and since the battle wasn't quite over, some of those pictured might have died that day. Their identities aren't important though, what's more important is the symbolism of the staged photo. It's the ancient European conceit that a flag means ownership (as in the Eddie Izzard bit: "hey, this is our land, you Brits can't just grab it."; "Haven't got a flag though have you? So it's ours now.")
So at the time this was great for all sorts of jingoistic propaganda, particularly after the war when we were wielding our nuclear supremacy like a vast sledgehammer. But looking back it just highlights the tragedy of the clashing cultures that couldn't understand eachother.
The movie "Flags of Our Fathers" was terrific, but I think the companion "Letters from Iwo Jima" was far more powerful in impact, and if anyone sees one they should see both. They show the terrible effects of patriarchal, power-driven societies, and the outcome of unwillingness to compromise with or understand ones enemies.
67
By the way, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I have no doubt that America was on the good side of WWII and Japan was in the wrong. But the fighting could have ended a lot sooner and the nuclear bombs need never have been used, if only we had understood eachother better.
11
That's a funny take right there. I applaud your admission that we were the good guys.
When you deal with power hungry dictators (WWII Germany and Japan), nothing short of a cease fire was going to stop the war before brute force. No conversation was going to make the atrocities they committed go away.
When you deal with power hungry dictators (WWII Germany and Japan), nothing short of a cease fire was going to stop the war before brute force. No conversation was going to make the atrocities they committed go away.
3
Some people learned the photograph was of a second flag raising and said the picture was posed. Joe Rosenthal: "Had I posed that shot, I would, of course, have ruined it. I'd have picked fewer men . . . I would have also made them turn their heads so that they could be identified for A.P. members throughout the country, and nothing like the existing picture would have resulted."
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/16/opinion/l-the-man-who-took-the-picture...
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/16/opinion/l-the-man-who-took-the-picture...
1
In the end of this debate, it matters not the indivual names of the Marines and Navy personnel who were personally involved in this seemingly in oculus and patriotic fact,that which does matter is that the act represents the heroism and devotion of all those servicee personnel who fought in this battle and many other like it across the Pacific so that we may live in the free world that exists today for so many of the planet's population. Well done WW II generation, very well done indeed.
105
This only brings more honor to all the men and women who helped bring an end to two of the worst tyrannies our world has known.
44
Wars which are made by politicans must be ended by politicians, the military does the fighting, stragey and tactics, yet it remains to DOD and the Chief Executive to end the war. Yet as history so well demonstrates, it is very easy to enter into a war and very difficult to stop or get out of a war, especially a verry unpopular one.
3
Who/what will bring an end to the tyranny of trump? Images like this, not the names of those pictured, are important as reminders that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And it looks like we are going to repeat it because so many people in this country not only failed to learn from history, but failed to learn history, period.
3
Actually, WWII Japan showed us that some times, you have to nuke a dictator to get him to stop.
Sometimes, twice.
Sometimes, twice.
My step-father was a seriously wounded Marine Paratrooper in Iwo Jima, and wounded again in later Pacific battles, to later return home with a steel plate in his head, but thereafter, a kind and gentle man- to me anyway. And my biological father was killed in Belgium in the Battle of the Bulge, less that 7 days after he had first set foot in Europe--one of Eisenhower's many drafted minions/cannon-fodder to fill those scant lines.
So I am and will probably remain, an avid WWII student, because of those two brave now-deceased men [one very quick and the other much too soon] losses. Been there literally, and walked the talk, I suspect unlike most of you editors anyway.
So why do you challenge these legends? Good for books no doubt, and maybe a blog; but it was a nationally inspiring photo and much-appreciated at the time Rosenthal shot it and published it. [I even remember it as a very young child]. Who cares who is really in it--especially 70 years later ?
It is a great picture of American heroism and eventual triumph in a very, very nasty time, And there were clearly American Marines up there, no matter whom they were. Does it really matter who after they finally got up there and put those flags up ?
MAMK