I worked in advertising for 16 years. It was routinely discussed by management that promotions and other staffing decisions had to be made for "client reasons," i.e., if the client prefers a man in the job, that's what the client gets. There were accounts staffed by men and women where only men had client contact. In a business where quality is so subjective (really, what is a good ad campaign?), the importance of these relationships allows ingrained prejudices to be magnified and persist longer than in other industries.
12
I've worked in digital agencies, and once, one of my fellow employees was murdered by her husband because he found out she was having an affair with our division head, who was her boss. I was shocked for many, many reasons--not least because the division head flirted with all the young girls in the office in a way that made me worried for them, and then we all find out that he was having an affair with his direct employee. What happened? Did the division head get fired? No, he got promoted a week or two later.
(In no way do I mean to imply that the division head--as smarmy and gross as he was--was directly to blame for his employee's murder or that her husband was in any way justified. Her husband was a crazy man. Still, to be promoted and not fired after you had an affair with an employee who was murdered in a DV episode...)
(In no way do I mean to imply that the division head--as smarmy and gross as he was--was directly to blame for his employee's murder or that her husband was in any way justified. Her husband was a crazy man. Still, to be promoted and not fired after you had an affair with an employee who was murdered in a DV episode...)
8
I was in the ad business as a "creative," a woman, up until very recently. It's still a boy's club, but I'm not sure why anybody would be surprised by this. Advertising reflects AND CREATES our sexist culture. An endless feedback loop. It's not only the males in the actual agencies driving this, it's the males at the heads of corporations; they're the ones really making these decisions and running the same tired, cliched, sexist advertising. Women aren't promoted at the same rate because the male clients trust/prefer males to reinforce the narratives. Advertising, like Hollywood, will be one of, if not THE last bastion of patriarchal brainwashing to fall. Capitalism and sexism/female oppression are inseparable. I ask anyone to look at any of the ads surrounding this article, or the fashion articles, etc., to see just how the big elephant in the room really is.
Oh, and I can't tell you how many male big wigs behave in all sorts of unethical and predatory ways, totally against company policy. Everybody knows it and everybody covers for it/ignores it/enables it. Business as usual.
Oh, and I can't tell you how many male big wigs behave in all sorts of unethical and predatory ways, totally against company policy. Everybody knows it and everybody covers for it/ignores it/enables it. Business as usual.
13
We write to targets. If 65% of males buy the car, that's why you see a guy driving the car. If 80% Moms buy the kitchen swifter, that's why you see Mom in the kitchen. Here's a brief:
Product: Household cleaner, Target: Hispanic Mom ,Deliverable: 30 TV
Timeline: Let's IR with account tomorrow
Remember, don't be cliche or draw from sexists tropes. Go.
Product: Household cleaner, Target: Hispanic Mom ,Deliverable: 30 TV
Timeline: Let's IR with account tomorrow
Remember, don't be cliche or draw from sexists tropes. Go.
7
I totally agree. I worked in a media agency, the target audience or focus group studies sometimes are so full of stereotypes and sexism, even many of the briefs are actually created by women. One time, when I was working on a proposal for a branding targeting affluent families, I used a picture of females for illustration. Later my boss saw the slides and asked me to replace that picture to business men, saying pictures of men project more successful image, and my boss is a woman.
Working females, more or less, may all have experienced the pressure of discrimination, but in other cases, they could be the one who is letting it too.
Working females, more or less, may all have experienced the pressure of discrimination, but in other cases, they could be the one who is letting it too.
6
Last week it was sexism in architecture. The week before, gender bias in the film business. Please, do an article on how poorly women are treating in religious organizations — particularly the Catholic church. The pope takes in a family of refugees, but God forbid, have a woman preach good news.
7
Aw, are you frustrated by the articles? Guess what? Many of us are frustrated by the still rampant sexism in our culture. Count yourself as lucky. You can ignore the articles you don't want to read. It's pretty hard to ignore the sexism.
10
This is the complete opposite of my experience in the industry, women make up the vast majority of top level employees at most brands and agencies.
4
I never worked in New York, but I did work in advertising in both Chicago and Philadelphia. Although I worked my way up to the position of creative director, I can never remember a time when I wasn't called girl or accused of being too pushy too emotional to angry or too hard bitten depending upon the tack I took. If bosses were angry with me I could expect to be called at best young lady. As I rose in the business be negative attention I got only seemed to grow worse and although in each of the agencies in which I worked I won more awards did my mail counterparts and was more popular with our clients I was always the last one to receive accolades and the last one to be promoted. Eventually I went out on my own and freelanced for a living. Strangely that was the only time I was shown real respect. The examples given by the women in this article absolutely reflect the treatment I received throughout my long career.
15
Oy- some of the comments miss the point. It's not awful these women are successful or make good money and indulge in the behaviour because it's easier (Nik Cecere), it's really a case of the more things change, the more they stay the same. Bravo to these women for being successful and yes it does hurt when you are invisible.
6
"yes it does hurt when you are invisible"
I agree whole heartedly.
A pan handler once told me the same thing. It wasnt the lack of money that hurt him most. It was being ignored, being invisible to those whi just walked on by.
Not too long ago, I was watching an interview on television. A man and a woman were interviewing another man. The female host asked what I thought was a rightful question. Apparently, the guest was not pleased, and so, for the rest of the interview, he just ignored her, completely, refusing to even look at her.
Recently, this same idiot had to resign as head of a worldwide organization because there had ben a number of complaints, harassement mostly, and all loged by women.
Of course, he's not the only one.
The are however a lot of guys who dont act in this same manner.
So lets not put us all in the same boat. Its insulting to us as well those who raised us, for the most part, our mothers.
Some of us, a lot of us, are well manerred, respectful and considerate.
I agree whole heartedly.
A pan handler once told me the same thing. It wasnt the lack of money that hurt him most. It was being ignored, being invisible to those whi just walked on by.
Not too long ago, I was watching an interview on television. A man and a woman were interviewing another man. The female host asked what I thought was a rightful question. Apparently, the guest was not pleased, and so, for the rest of the interview, he just ignored her, completely, refusing to even look at her.
Recently, this same idiot had to resign as head of a worldwide organization because there had ben a number of complaints, harassement mostly, and all loged by women.
Of course, he's not the only one.
The are however a lot of guys who dont act in this same manner.
So lets not put us all in the same boat. Its insulting to us as well those who raised us, for the most part, our mothers.
Some of us, a lot of us, are well manerred, respectful and considerate.
7
I'm an account supervisor at an advertising and PR agency in the Midwest. My colleague and I co-lead a women's group in our office. We would be curious to read a follow-up collection of interviews about other types of bias (age and race, particularly). There is a group in Minneapolis called The Brand Lab - Ellen Waldhour, the executive direcotr, would be a fantastic source.
In addition, I'm not sure I agree with the headline selection for this article. I don't think most of these women would agree it's still entirely a "Man Men World" - much has certainly changed. Not enough, for sure. To me, and many individuals I've spoken with about this subject, it's more about understanding that we have a serious diversity problem in advertising in many ways - not only gender. It's more complex than that. Which I think is partially why 3% and other groups only get so far.
However, I do unfortunately agree that there are quite a few men out there (and women) who are not open to discussing or admitting to this is a significant problem.
In addition, I'm not sure I agree with the headline selection for this article. I don't think most of these women would agree it's still entirely a "Man Men World" - much has certainly changed. Not enough, for sure. To me, and many individuals I've spoken with about this subject, it's more about understanding that we have a serious diversity problem in advertising in many ways - not only gender. It's more complex than that. Which I think is partially why 3% and other groups only get so far.
However, I do unfortunately agree that there are quite a few men out there (and women) who are not open to discussing or admitting to this is a significant problem.
7
As a former male adman, all I can say is that I have had my feelings hurt by women in advertising more times than I can count. One time my boss, a female, ran her fingers through my hair and said: "You really ought to wash that." I was humiliated, embarrassed and devastated.
5
I know a couple of women in advertising, and they always struck me as studiously apolitical and disinterested in any kind of discussion of feminism or sexism. As a woman, working in the overtly political world of public interest law, it seemed to me that those topics were always taboo in casual conversation. We could have martinis and joke around about dating, but nothing substantial was allowed. Perhaps that is industry culture, but if the only women being promoted are those who accommodate sexist behavior, then nothing will change.
5
So sad and yet so true. The unending recession is only delaying progress since it will take even longer for baby boomers to retire so the rest of us can get a breath of fresh air.
Meanwhile career executives of 15 years like me will be constantly scrutinized and judged while my male colleagues get away with nearly everything for as long as they play along with the boys.
My last male boss and company president consistently organized team building events close to his favorite strip clubs so he can have fun with the other guys afterwards. Surprisingly, the promotion discussions were happening during that part of the evening. Sadly he was the best boss I've had.
Meanwhile career executives of 15 years like me will be constantly scrutinized and judged while my male colleagues get away with nearly everything for as long as they play along with the boys.
My last male boss and company president consistently organized team building events close to his favorite strip clubs so he can have fun with the other guys afterwards. Surprisingly, the promotion discussions were happening during that part of the evening. Sadly he was the best boss I've had.
7
Wonder what it's like for women in another macho high pressure industry like investment banking. And like at Goldman Sachs.
3
Ah the sixties and seventies. I remember clearly at the office, the girls dressed to the nines as they say, and the attractive ones strutted their stuff as they say, obviously loving the attention. A circumstance we all looked forward to the next day. Ninety nine percent of we males made no comment made no overtures. As time passed the ladies didn't want to be stay at home Moms or have clerk task. Corporate HR regulations became common and we all excepted them. I traveled international with females and it went well . Many females decided to become CEO's doctors, pilots etc. Their choice, it went well. Adjusting to the 24/7 work routine took some thought.
It's really sad to see that nothing's changed in all these decades. I never watched Mad Men because it was still much too close to reality. when I started male art directors still plastered their walls with photos of naked women—"art," they called it. Only 11% of Creative Directors are women—that's worse than the STEM industries. Though we start out in equal numbers, most of the women I know have been forced out of the industry they sacrificed so much for. These are women, like me, who gave up marriage and kids for a career that was pulled out from under them once they approached age 40. I've watched as the guy who was my first partner, a boozing, hands-up-the-skirt perv, was promoted to global CMO, and guys who are 5, 10, 15 years younger than me got promoted over me. All the creative women I know who are my age are freelancing now, having been fired or laid off, with a few exceptions demoted to positions they held 20 years ago. And then you have someone like Lee Clow "pledging" to take the next 20 years to increase the percentage of female Creative Directors in his agency to a whopping 13.2%, and getting a bunch of white guys together to talk to the camera about it. And I'll bet he's proud of his "pledge" to keep women out of the top echelons of creative departments for as long as possible, and his incredibly tone-deaf video.
14
If you are making advertising to sell to customers who have issues with gender or racial diversity, you generally avoid raising those issues. One way to do this is to not see them yourself, even if they are obvious or blatant. It is easier to sell to biased consumers if you are biased yourself and do not see the biases as such. Nonbiased people or ad campaigns will appear as biased against what is normal and acceptable and as enemies of the way things have always been and should be.
Advertising is inherently dishonest in that its goal is to make a sale, not to help consumers make decisions that are best for them. The industry's self conception is also inherently dishonest, since it presents its manipulation of consumers as helping them make decisions rather than fooling or tricking them. The only honest self-conception of advertising is of a world where everything is a sales pitch and the measure of truth is effectiveness, and of advertising as fitting seamlessly into this world. Thus an article in a scientific journal is a sales pitch for the future careers of the authors, and its truth is that their reputations are burnished. People who see the world in this way may have trouble conceiving of sexism or racism as a problem rather than one of the factors that must be considered in crafting a successful sales campaign.
Advertising is inherently dishonest in that its goal is to make a sale, not to help consumers make decisions that are best for them. The industry's self conception is also inherently dishonest, since it presents its manipulation of consumers as helping them make decisions rather than fooling or tricking them. The only honest self-conception of advertising is of a world where everything is a sales pitch and the measure of truth is effectiveness, and of advertising as fitting seamlessly into this world. Thus an article in a scientific journal is a sales pitch for the future careers of the authors, and its truth is that their reputations are burnished. People who see the world in this way may have trouble conceiving of sexism or racism as a problem rather than one of the factors that must be considered in crafting a successful sales campaign.
5
If you are a man, and if you are about to start bloviating about why this article is all wrong, please sit on your hands and think.
Think about what these women are saying. Not so that you can argue with it. So that you can understand it. Not so that you can understand it so you can argue with it. So that you can understand SOMEBODY ELSE FOR A CHANGE.
Just be quiet and listen, and think, without arguing. These women are telling you important things. Stop defending and listen.
Think about what these women are saying. Not so that you can argue with it. So that you can understand it. Not so that you can understand it so you can argue with it. So that you can understand SOMEBODY ELSE FOR A CHANGE.
Just be quiet and listen, and think, without arguing. These women are telling you important things. Stop defending and listen.
35
Im assuming you've done the same, sat on you hands and listened, "So that you can understand SOMEBODY ELSE FOR A CHANGE" and "Just be quiet and listen, and think, without arguing"
Somehow I doubt it.
Thru your dismissiveness, you've just given creedence to all those who argue a pout contrary to yours.
Bravo! Well done!
Somehow I doubt it.
Thru your dismissiveness, you've just given creedence to all those who argue a pout contrary to yours.
Bravo! Well done!
2
"Some women also said gender discrimination showed up when looking at the ads that agencies produce. Many ads portray stereotypical gender roles, they said, with mothers in the kitchen, for instance, and men driving cars."
This is so true, and something I notice all the time in ads. But, is there no way for these women to branch out on their own or market their services specifically for ads that are targeted to females? In other words, how can the makers of certain products not realize that having a female ad exec on their campaign may produce a new, better type of ad? Why DO ads for household cleaners, breakfast meals, family meals, diapers, etc. always depict a female consumer? Surely there are women and men out there who'd respond very favorably to ads that didn't always show stereotypical roles for men vs women.
This is so true, and something I notice all the time in ads. But, is there no way for these women to branch out on their own or market their services specifically for ads that are targeted to females? In other words, how can the makers of certain products not realize that having a female ad exec on their campaign may produce a new, better type of ad? Why DO ads for household cleaners, breakfast meals, family meals, diapers, etc. always depict a female consumer? Surely there are women and men out there who'd respond very favorably to ads that didn't always show stereotypical roles for men vs women.
4
As the former Chief Creative Officer of an Omnicom marketing agency, I can share one thing no one tells you in the "agency life" brochure -- If you're female creative over the age of 40, you'd better super glue yourself to your chair. If you get up, you'll likely become a freelancer or a consultant for the rest of your professional life. It is a young person's game, and still an adman's world.
20
Come on, not just female, males too. Most creative are expandable after 40.
2
Agreed, Will. With that said, I've seen the hack saw come out more often when it's a female over 40 than a male. There's a massive misconception that youth is more valuable than experience. If you're creative at 50 and have nearly 30 years of experience in your vitae, I believe you are as or more valuable to a client than the person who just got out of college.
8
Tell that to the employers.
Sadly, this same story was written 5 years ago and could be written in another 5 years still. Very little is changing. The thing I'm surprised was not mentioned here explicitly is that it's simply not enough to instill women in senior roles. Once they get into those upper rungs, they can, and often are, guilty of discrimination -- and sexism in advertising -- themselves. Being a woman doesn't automatically mean you will turn around and be respectful to other women. Sometimes it's the contrary, as a manner of self-preservation to be the "only senior woman." They may not even realize their own missteps, after years of being forced to act like one of the boys just to get ahead. The conversation needs to go from being about lifting percentages and joining industry "Girls" groups to a new climate -- one that focuses on true mentorship and commitment to helping other women make their mark. Unless those sorts of rules are instituted -- and not good will, but mandates -- then nothing will change.
8
Yes, ridiculous these top dollar female earners are very carefully choosing their words.
Money makes the world go round. No one is really crying over missed golf dates.
I was squeezed out of the music advertising business I originally started with my former husband.
My sole and original idea as a 19 year old music student to start a music production business when I interned at NW Ayer. My former wanted total control and power and he forced me out of the business and my personal life. Could this particular industry attract in particularly wicked people--maybe. Think about it.
Money makes the world go round. No one is really crying over missed golf dates.
I was squeezed out of the music advertising business I originally started with my former husband.
My sole and original idea as a 19 year old music student to start a music production business when I interned at NW Ayer. My former wanted total control and power and he forced me out of the business and my personal life. Could this particular industry attract in particularly wicked people--maybe. Think about it.
1
I'm sorry, Chief diversity officer at the at a ad agency gets almost no votes. Ad agencies are run by the account, creative and media dept.
3
I worked in the Entertainment Industry for the better part of thirty years.
A while back, I was in a meeting with the Artistic Director, Senior Stage Manager and Human Resources Director, all of whom were women.
We were wanting to hire a new Crew Chief. The HR Director suggested that we hire a women.
I said No. We're going to hire the best person available, based on skills, be they a man or a woman.
On another occasion, the Director, a man, invited a costume designer to partake in one of our meetings. He invited a women he had heard of. Throughout the meeting, the one and only think she did was criticize a co-worker's opinion, stating openly that that was the kind of thing a "guy" would say.
Of course! He was a man.
In the end, she never got the job, not because she was a women, or a bad designer, but because she hadn't contributed anything positive.
Some of the most unpleasant bosses I've had were women. Its not that they were women. It's that they seemingly had too much to prove and were doing it at other people's expense. In the process of wanting to prove themselves, they would often try to demonstrate how strong they were by taking down other men.
I find few things as exhilirating as working for a strong, confident woman.
They offer a different perspective.
Sometimes if you want to succeed, its best to put your biases aside, and this applies to both men and women.
By the way, in my experience, gay men are better costume designers.
A while back, I was in a meeting with the Artistic Director, Senior Stage Manager and Human Resources Director, all of whom were women.
We were wanting to hire a new Crew Chief. The HR Director suggested that we hire a women.
I said No. We're going to hire the best person available, based on skills, be they a man or a woman.
On another occasion, the Director, a man, invited a costume designer to partake in one of our meetings. He invited a women he had heard of. Throughout the meeting, the one and only think she did was criticize a co-worker's opinion, stating openly that that was the kind of thing a "guy" would say.
Of course! He was a man.
In the end, she never got the job, not because she was a women, or a bad designer, but because she hadn't contributed anything positive.
Some of the most unpleasant bosses I've had were women. Its not that they were women. It's that they seemingly had too much to prove and were doing it at other people's expense. In the process of wanting to prove themselves, they would often try to demonstrate how strong they were by taking down other men.
I find few things as exhilirating as working for a strong, confident woman.
They offer a different perspective.
Sometimes if you want to succeed, its best to put your biases aside, and this applies to both men and women.
By the way, in my experience, gay men are better costume designers.
4
Michael,
So refreshing to hear a humanistic response with: "Sometimes if you want to succeed, it's best to put your biases aside, and this applies to both men and women." The answer is so simple, yet people seem bogged down by their biases. I'm a gay male and there are biases about us--and within our own community, so it really has to be a case by case basis. That guy with the "I'll I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten" book was right, but we seem to pick up biases as we age and can't shake them loose. I'm 41 and I think by the time you are 35 at the absolute latest you should be able to look at every person for their merits and not be afraid to have the moral courage to check someone, or call them out (like that lady in the meeting--though it is obvious she was just embarrassing herself--and probably the Director, as it is akin to insulting one of his "family" members, unless he wasn't a nice person.) Character and collaborative contribution are all very important--to me at least.
So refreshing to hear a humanistic response with: "Sometimes if you want to succeed, it's best to put your biases aside, and this applies to both men and women." The answer is so simple, yet people seem bogged down by their biases. I'm a gay male and there are biases about us--and within our own community, so it really has to be a case by case basis. That guy with the "I'll I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten" book was right, but we seem to pick up biases as we age and can't shake them loose. I'm 41 and I think by the time you are 35 at the absolute latest you should be able to look at every person for their merits and not be afraid to have the moral courage to check someone, or call them out (like that lady in the meeting--though it is obvious she was just embarrassing herself--and probably the Director, as it is akin to insulting one of his "family" members, unless he wasn't a nice person.) Character and collaborative contribution are all very important--to me at least.
2
I read your comments and perhaps you are right...I might have been too acerbic here and there. But others and perhaps you are attempting to refute a well-researched and well-know fact with odd counter examples and limited anecdotes. So, instead of readers being illuminated and informed about the issues women have faced in the advertising industry and then to perhaps consider their own industry and how they might stop being part of the problem and start becoming a solution to the problem...we get knee-jerk comments about women being the problem with all their cliques and pedicures and making men watch their bags. The author of this article, has brought out in many of the commenters in their own words, the exact problems that these women have faced for many decades.
In your comment here, you seem to think that its only a problem with biases. Its not biases Michael...you are attempting to set up what is called a "false equivalence" when you attempt to say that both men and women are to blame. That based on your single anecdote, women are as much of a problem as men. That is just not supported by any evidence anywhere in the world....
I will pass on to my brother, who is a gay costume designer, that you have reduced him to a cultural meme. Good thing he didn't become a businessman or minister or General....
In your comment here, you seem to think that its only a problem with biases. Its not biases Michael...you are attempting to set up what is called a "false equivalence" when you attempt to say that both men and women are to blame. That based on your single anecdote, women are as much of a problem as men. That is just not supported by any evidence anywhere in the world....
I will pass on to my brother, who is a gay costume designer, that you have reduced him to a cultural meme. Good thing he didn't become a businessman or minister or General....
3
As always, you read and understand what suits you.
You would do well to understand however that this is not about blame, at least not as I understand it. I choose to see it otherwise.
Give my regards to your brother. I trust he is doing well.
You would do well to understand however that this is not about blame, at least not as I understand it. I choose to see it otherwise.
Give my regards to your brother. I trust he is doing well.
1
As someone who has worked for over 20 years in the marketing/creative industry, I would say that ageism and sexism no doubt exists, and hits women harder than men.
The references come in the absence of words, or with ignorance. I've heard women leaders (over 50 year of age) suggest to young students that they should ignore those in the over 40 crowd. I've also heard male CDs use comments like "I don't know what it is exactly. You need to be more aggressive in your approach. Maybe it has something to do with poor self esteem?" in order feel okay in their decision to reduce your project opportunity. And a slew of moments where the male executives in the room immediately turn to the guy in the room in order to find the answer to a tech question.
It's all very subtle until one day you realize you're constantly hearing salacious and lascivious jokes by those who supposedly are trying to gain your respect. When your superior asks you and your coworkers, with a straight face over drinks, whether any have had the chance to be in a threesome — you’ve had your fill. You suddenly come to realize that the majority of the people at the top (all males excluding one) affect the social rules of the office.
The references come in the absence of words, or with ignorance. I've heard women leaders (over 50 year of age) suggest to young students that they should ignore those in the over 40 crowd. I've also heard male CDs use comments like "I don't know what it is exactly. You need to be more aggressive in your approach. Maybe it has something to do with poor self esteem?" in order feel okay in their decision to reduce your project opportunity. And a slew of moments where the male executives in the room immediately turn to the guy in the room in order to find the answer to a tech question.
It's all very subtle until one day you realize you're constantly hearing salacious and lascivious jokes by those who supposedly are trying to gain your respect. When your superior asks you and your coworkers, with a straight face over drinks, whether any have had the chance to be in a threesome — you’ve had your fill. You suddenly come to realize that the majority of the people at the top (all males excluding one) affect the social rules of the office.
6
You're right on point I'm afraid. As an example, in one and the same performance review I heard all of the following:
I'm too assertive
I don't speak up enough
I am too combative
I compromise too much
I don't network enough
I spend way too much time with clients
Nothing had anything to do with my tangible measurable results. Everything said to me as feedback just sounded schizophrenic.
Go figure
I'm too assertive
I don't speak up enough
I am too combative
I compromise too much
I don't network enough
I spend way too much time with clients
Nothing had anything to do with my tangible measurable results. Everything said to me as feedback just sounded schizophrenic.
Go figure
6
OK! We got it. Bias exists. We are all really heros and heroines, but not paid what we are worth. This is getting so dull, so unnecessary, and so weird that it is starting to look like just one more middle class guilt trip. Pay everyone the same, the manager included, as well as the doorman, and just shut up about it.
5
In a recent article in this paper ("Trump Plays the Man’s Card", Nicholas Kristoff, April 30, 2016), it is dstated:
"...researchers found that having more women randomly assigned to a committee evaluating judiciary candidates actually hurts the prospects of female candidates. A similar study found that on Italian academic evaluation committees, women evaluate female candidates more harshly than men do."
And this very article states that "Women now make up almost 50 percent of those working in the advertising industry."
So why this attitude that any time women are discriminated against, it's the fault of a man (or every man)? This is the victimhood-claiming so many people bristle at when they hear how The Patriarchy™ is keeping someone down, yet again.
"...researchers found that having more women randomly assigned to a committee evaluating judiciary candidates actually hurts the prospects of female candidates. A similar study found that on Italian academic evaluation committees, women evaluate female candidates more harshly than men do."
And this very article states that "Women now make up almost 50 percent of those working in the advertising industry."
So why this attitude that any time women are discriminated against, it's the fault of a man (or every man)? This is the victimhood-claiming so many people bristle at when they hear how The Patriarchy™ is keeping someone down, yet again.
4
What an excellent point. Often the women that succeed in business have struggled mightily trying to play along with the boys in order to get ahead. Eventually they are accepted by male colleagues in the periphery of their informal network and feel they have to be doubly tough on other women in order to maintain approval. Especially since these already accomplished women are typically baby boomers who had to ignore any semblance of private and family life to succeed. The stereotype of the awful female manager is unfortunately very real.
I'm hopeful that once the boomers are out of the workforce we will be able to progress toward a more meritocratic and compassionate approach towards each other at work.
I'm hopeful that once the boomers are out of the workforce we will be able to progress toward a more meritocratic and compassionate approach towards each other at work.
1
Men or people who use the term "victimhood" and go to the trouble of putting a registration mark after the patriarchy are usually people who benefit from things the way they are. Why does it bother you so very much when women speak out against sexism? Newsflash: The patriarchy does keep women down. Also, water is wet.
Many years ago I worked for a time in a low-level advertising job. My boss was a man but the agency also employed women in quite a few upper level positions. We all participated in high level special project campaigns. Of course there was sexism, as was/is in most professions, mistakes were not allowed (for anyone), and stress was a constant. My main take away from this job was pure amazement: so much talent, time, resources, and energy...devoted to...selling - fried chicken, cars, etc., etc! Dear God. What a waste...
7
Ironic that the ads accompanying this article show faceless women's bodies wearing hosiery and lingerie, in various suggesting poses. Just sayin'
4
This whole piece is based on "interviews with over a dozen women." That barely allows it to reach even the level of "anecdote." So let's not get too carried away with conclusions about an entire industry, one where, according to the article, women are represented at a pretty respectable level of 50%.
2
Anyone here surprised that Trump claims Mrs. Clinton is playing "the woman card"?
2
Speaking out against sexism in the workplace is not "playing the woman card" nor is it "investing in victimization" as many commenters here would like to believe; it's far more simple than that, it's the reality many women live day in, and day out. What many women want is not to put men down, nor is it to ignore differences between men and women; rather they want to make it through the day, week, month without opinions about what they're wearing, without sexual harassment, or "rapey comments" directed toward them.
39
My wife works in IT industry and she worked in 4 companies during her career, the biggest one was a multi-national corporation and the smallest one was a little more than a start-up. In her experience, the smaller the company, more crass and misogynistic the work-environment was. This is not an attempt to generalize, only recounting her experience. In the two smallest companies, use of foul and sexually explicit language in the work place was the norm. Even the boss was part of the problem and there was absolutely no concern for how it made the co-workers who would not engage in such language, especially the female workers, felt. There was no HR department to speak of. On the other hand, the big companies appear to have a better work-culture, at least in terms of keeping it professional and courteous. When we had small children and my wife could not work spend time on office-work beyond the regular 8-5 hours at one of these small companies, the boss and a co-worker systematically conspired to create a hostile work place to force her out. It was a painful experience for her to learn how brutal the world out there can be. After seeing what my wife has gone through during her career, I can only sympathize with American female workers and the work-place indignities they are forced to endure. It is amazing how so many American males forget that they have wives and daughters the moment they get in the company of fellow males and readily engage in uncouth behavior.
9
What, if anything, are these women CEOs, these success stories who have broken through the glass ceiling, done to help bring up women behind them? Have any of them changed their corporations' policies relating to family leave, childcare, flexible work accommodations for all workers, male or female, who have any sort of familial responsibilities (childcare, care of elderly parents, ailing spouses, etc).
Or have these women been satisfied with their own personal gains, relishing being the example of a woman who has 'made it' in the white man's world, only to be self-satisfied that is all she has had to do?
I often wonder about why the forward movement of so many groups - African Americans, women, for example - continues to stagnate, and one contributing factor, it seems to me is this - those who have made it to the top in their field aren't doing enough to bring up individuals behind them, to keep the momentum going.
Or have these women been satisfied with their own personal gains, relishing being the example of a woman who has 'made it' in the white man's world, only to be self-satisfied that is all she has had to do?
I often wonder about why the forward movement of so many groups - African Americans, women, for example - continues to stagnate, and one contributing factor, it seems to me is this - those who have made it to the top in their field aren't doing enough to bring up individuals behind them, to keep the momentum going.
2
The article was not about what high-level women in the ad industry are doing to promote women subordinates. It was an article about the how the ad industry is still a sexist industry after all these years/decades for women.
5
I've been in the business for over 17 years and have worked for many powerful, in control, in charge, well-respected women who were not only talented but inspirational to me as a man. So while I'm sure sexism is still an issue in the industry, I feel this article makes men look like the cigar-smokin, whiskey-sippin, butt-slappin brutes from the Mad Men era which isn't true at all.
19
The problem with opinions like yours are 1) you have a short time period in the work force, 2) you have only worked at 1-2 firms so cannot know what is happening elsewhere, 3) not having been present at 100% of the activities of your own firm you are unable to honestly speak to what is happened in the next cubicle and most importantly.....4) as a male, you do not know nor have you ever experienced what they have.....you have, no doubt, unwittingly, offended many women in the workplace already just due to your ignorance.
5
Right. Because YOU, a man, haven't seen or experienced sexism, it then doesn't exist. Logic FAIL.
6
"11% of creative directors are women." And people here are questioning whether the industry has gender equity? Facts speak for themselves.
12
I'm amazed by the tone of the comments suggesting this type of reporting is whining, or that sexism used to be more fun when women didn't take it so seriously, or that women in advertising have never written memorable catch phrases... really?! Sorry if this is hard to hear guys, but this is the reality for many women at work regardless of their level of success. We've come a long way - but not far enough.
66
I was raised by a misogynistic man who abused my mother in ways that would make it on the evening news and gotten him arrested were he to do these things today. Although I detest the worst of his behavior, I confess that I have behaved in ways that I'm not proud of. This recently came to light when my fiance gave me advice which I ignored, but when a male friend made the exact same suggestion it was if I heard it for the first time. Of course I didn't notice it, but she sure did. Taking an honest look back, I've been that way in all areas of my life.
No doubt I learned to treat women that way from my father and my culture. However, having decided to do better, I've already made progress. To me it's a simple matter of respect and just doing the right thing.
No doubt I learned to treat women that way from my father and my culture. However, having decided to do better, I've already made progress. To me it's a simple matter of respect and just doing the right thing.
15
As the sole woman in an engineering department, I was frozen out for a long, long time. They had had experience with a young female engineer who had gone to HR on many occasions to claim that she'd been harassed by people who were actually trying to mentor her. I kept my head down and worked hard and earned the respect of my male colleagues after some time. They liked my ideas and knew I knew how to get things done. After a while I was invited on all the outings and they came to me when they wanted to buy gifts for their wives. One guy was planning on buying his wife a vacuum cleaner for Christmas, I told him that would earn him a divorce. The next time our families gathered for a ski trip she thanked me for the diamond earrings he'd given her instead. Working with men is often easier than the back biting that goes on with women, but sometimes you have to meet them halfway. Having worked a long time in largely male industries, I can say there have been huge strides since the 70's. The problem is that often young people coming in are so sensitized to what they consider their rights and they demand special treatment. That goes the same for young men, everybody expects a trophy, regardless of the work they do.
39
Sorry, but you lost me when you claim a prior female complained of harassment by "people who were actually trying to mentor her." Dismissing others' feelings or perceptions is a major reason why the problems of sexism and racism remain. We see things through different lens and are unwilling to acknowledge the other person's perceptions and feelings. It's a major problem.
5
but not a mention of Rena Bartos? ! ? ! She fought long and hard and wrote books about women in advertising. She died last year -- or is it two years ago already?
2
Amazing how she was left out! And she worked for JWT!!
Why don't women let the men have this craven madness for themselves. This is the "heart and soul" of phony. Money is all it offers and destruction is all it creates.
9
50% of the ad industry are now women?
I think that statistic is misleading. Certainly there are numerous women in the account service, production, accounting and other departments. And those departments are by all means important. But any great agency has creative at its core and given that, the agency lives and dies by its creative product.
Agency creative departments are at best 10% women. It is reflected in the work that is created and the culture of the agency as a whole. Until we get more women into the creative positions, I'ma afraid the boys club mentality will prevail.
I think that statistic is misleading. Certainly there are numerous women in the account service, production, accounting and other departments. And those departments are by all means important. But any great agency has creative at its core and given that, the agency lives and dies by its creative product.
Agency creative departments are at best 10% women. It is reflected in the work that is created and the culture of the agency as a whole. Until we get more women into the creative positions, I'ma afraid the boys club mentality will prevail.
5
I was in the ad biz for 25 years, on the "creative side." I was vice president and creative director at three of the agencies the women pictured in this article work at. I know for certain all of the women pictured are making 6-figure salaries. They are also taking long lunches (on expense accounts) and flying first- or business-class on the clients' dime. They are in the 1%, striving for the .01%, which is attainable in any multinational advertising/marketing group.
In all my 25 years in the business I only ever had female bosses; and, easily 85% of my peers in other departments were females. They were making sexist and sexual cracks, wearing fashionably revealing clothes and ever higher heels climbing their way up--as I did in my Armani suits and Versace ties.
When male/female teams work at producing ads, the creative process is rife with iconoclastic thinking and "inappropriate" language; it is part of how good (and bad) advertising is created. Then, as now, female ad executives (and lower levels, too) are/were creating what could only be described as "sexist" and "female demeaning" advertising--because sexist advertising works, because our culture is sexist.
Take a look at the way female news-readers dress provocatively while their male counterparts are as staid as ever in coats and ties, as necklines on their "equal" colleagues get ever lower and their bodices ever tighter.
It works; women are a powerful part of making it happen. Physicians: heal yourselves.
In all my 25 years in the business I only ever had female bosses; and, easily 85% of my peers in other departments were females. They were making sexist and sexual cracks, wearing fashionably revealing clothes and ever higher heels climbing their way up--as I did in my Armani suits and Versace ties.
When male/female teams work at producing ads, the creative process is rife with iconoclastic thinking and "inappropriate" language; it is part of how good (and bad) advertising is created. Then, as now, female ad executives (and lower levels, too) are/were creating what could only be described as "sexist" and "female demeaning" advertising--because sexist advertising works, because our culture is sexist.
Take a look at the way female news-readers dress provocatively while their male counterparts are as staid as ever in coats and ties, as necklines on their "equal" colleagues get ever lower and their bodices ever tighter.
It works; women are a powerful part of making it happen. Physicians: heal yourselves.
51
To pick up on just one of your misunderstandings....you are saying that after a few decades of being insulted and commented on for your daily appearance, doing jobs like fetching coffee and being asked in meeting to represent the entire female race...and finally you get to the top and fly first class...you should just enjoy it even though men are on a private jet making multiples of your income and did not have to answer for the male race not be asked whether they had lost a few pounds along the way...?
4
To "Nik Ceccere in Sante Fe, NM" - It sounds like you've had bad experiences in the business.
The New York Times gave up real news quite awhile ago. Now it's all race and "gender", all the time. Feelings, resentments, grievances are all now reported by what once was the greatest paper in the country as "news".
12
Sounds like you have quite a resentful grievances about that, Longue.
7
"Twenty-five percent of women in advertising said they had personally experienced gender discrimination." Wow, and this is based on what, exactly?
What a lame article!
What a lame article!
3
These women all work in a profession whose product regularly devalues and denigrates women. Why are they surprised when they themselves are demeaned? If they shifted the types of advertising they create to empower women and girls, would they perhaps see a change in their workplace?
5
They can create advertising to "empower" woman and girls 'til the cows come home, but very few clients will buy it. Believe me, any time you try TRULY challenging stereotypes, it crashes. There's no advertising in the world that actually "empowers" women. Faux feminist femvertising is just that. Genuine empowerment messages generally don't sell things because advertising works on making the consumer feel that there's something missing or wrong with them.
It's hard to believe that an industry that typically utilizes sex, fear and insecurity to peddle often useless and sometimes downright dangerous products to the less discerning, has an issue with inappropriate behavior in the workplace!
4
I'm an architect. I've worked in this industry for about 15 years. Over this time, I'm happy to say I've seen things change, as the industry has become more "professional" and more team-oriented, and the myth of the heroic "idea-man," usually a raging alcoholic, workaholic "visionary" who swings in on a vine and abuses everybody (but no one cares because he's just THAT good!) has thankfully fallen out of favor. There was clearly a similar hero-type at work in advertising.
However, it's not all better. If you work on large-scale projects for developers, you'll find yourself in a room full of white men in suits, their hierarchy obvious by the size of the watch. Show me a Trump project by a female architect, for example. You'll be invited to casual client meetings over drinks. And you'll still be expected to work 60+ hours a week, and try doing that with small children at home.
Now of course, men have small children at home too, and some are not comfortable with this arrangement. And it's probably harder for them to object.
But any environment that makes us all default to gender stereotypes as a matter of course is, by definition, sexist.
However, it's not all better. If you work on large-scale projects for developers, you'll find yourself in a room full of white men in suits, their hierarchy obvious by the size of the watch. Show me a Trump project by a female architect, for example. You'll be invited to casual client meetings over drinks. And you'll still be expected to work 60+ hours a week, and try doing that with small children at home.
Now of course, men have small children at home too, and some are not comfortable with this arrangement. And it's probably harder for them to object.
But any environment that makes us all default to gender stereotypes as a matter of course is, by definition, sexist.
6
It's a Mad Men world no matter what industry you're in.
7
Ancient Anecdote --
My first ad agency job was as a copywriter in a large national agency's Chicago office on Michigan Avenue.
It was dominated by men, with women serving only in clerical and assistant positions. For the most part, the women were attractive and dressed well, the younger ones often in miniskirts.
One day, I was startled to observe the cutest one of all duck into an office across from mine. She quickly pulled her blouse hem up and out of her skirt, then -- with her hands below the blouse -- wiggle the skirt down so that its hem reached to just above her knees.
"What's going on?" I asked.
"Surprise visit," she replied, "The bosses are here from Detroit." Then she rushed up to the front office to help greet and welcome the brass.
Was this an incident of the Puritans invading the Land of the Mad Men? Think of it as you will, but I will always treasure the vision of the pretty girl wiggling and wriggling as she lowered her sparse skirt down her shapely legs. That, a half-century ago.
My first ad agency job was as a copywriter in a large national agency's Chicago office on Michigan Avenue.
It was dominated by men, with women serving only in clerical and assistant positions. For the most part, the women were attractive and dressed well, the younger ones often in miniskirts.
One day, I was startled to observe the cutest one of all duck into an office across from mine. She quickly pulled her blouse hem up and out of her skirt, then -- with her hands below the blouse -- wiggle the skirt down so that its hem reached to just above her knees.
"What's going on?" I asked.
"Surprise visit," she replied, "The bosses are here from Detroit." Then she rushed up to the front office to help greet and welcome the brass.
Was this an incident of the Puritans invading the Land of the Mad Men? Think of it as you will, but I will always treasure the vision of the pretty girl wiggling and wriggling as she lowered her sparse skirt down her shapely legs. That, a half-century ago.
5
I worked for the first and oldest ad agency in the country during the 90's. A profession noted for it's ruthlessness and competition but also for it's high degree of excellence. Like any other business, you have those who are equal to the task and those who are not and those who are fair minded and those who will do anything to succeed. I've met them all, male and female. Generally speaking, a good idea is a good idea regardless of it's gender source. I never once heard any sexist or profane remark made in public against women and their contribution to a a concept or campaign. No man would have dared without suffering the consequences. Creative teams, art director & copywriter, were made up of men & women, men & men and women & women. No bias towards creative directors either.
The only time I was witness to an openly sexist bias was when men were barred from a particular client, a well known cosmetic firm. The CEO, the first woman to head the agency, had been a liaison for the account for many years at another agency. Needless to say, in time the agency developed a "girls against the boys" mentality as the CEO surrounded herself with an exclusive staff of women. The agency had been in decline after having lost many top tier clients, the polarization didn't help and eventually the agency closed it's doors.
Bias, regardless of it's source, has no place in any environment but to say it's a male only trait is unfair and miopic.
The only time I was witness to an openly sexist bias was when men were barred from a particular client, a well known cosmetic firm. The CEO, the first woman to head the agency, had been a liaison for the account for many years at another agency. Needless to say, in time the agency developed a "girls against the boys" mentality as the CEO surrounded herself with an exclusive staff of women. The agency had been in decline after having lost many top tier clients, the polarization didn't help and eventually the agency closed it's doors.
Bias, regardless of it's source, has no place in any environment but to say it's a male only trait is unfair and miopic.
7
men, if you work in any office w women, keep your mouth shut to avoid sex harassment suits
if you must discuss business, do it as briefly and as professionally as possible
i suggest averting your eyes when you speak to a female to avoid being accused of ogling
never have ANY interaction beyond that
if you must discuss business, do it as briefly and as professionally as possible
i suggest averting your eyes when you speak to a female to avoid being accused of ogling
never have ANY interaction beyond that
6
If only men would actually take your advice. That would be Utopia!!
It can be very hard to dismiss, ignore, or hide natural instincts around men and women. We've come a long way as a society with regards to gender equality in the workplace, but we haven't changed what it fundamentally means to be a man or a woman. That each side has differences, which we keep trying to sanitize until it goes away. Just because we put men and women together in workplaces and tell them to be a-sexual equals doesn't mean they aren't attracted to one another sometimes, have pre-conceived ideas or have an easier time interacting with the same gender socially sometimes.
It seems in the "Mad Men" era that was taken more jovially, but accompany more negative limits on women. Now we have a corporate environment that is sterilized and repressed, where we are wondering why people aren't naturally getting a long like we want and living some idealized work environment. Instead of embracing our natural differences, they' off limits entirely.
Our reaction is to try and force more, control more, and regulate more; but it doesn't address that in many ways men and women are different and as humanity much of our interaction is around how those differences interact.
It seems in the "Mad Men" era that was taken more jovially, but accompany more negative limits on women. Now we have a corporate environment that is sterilized and repressed, where we are wondering why people aren't naturally getting a long like we want and living some idealized work environment. Instead of embracing our natural differences, they' off limits entirely.
Our reaction is to try and force more, control more, and regulate more; but it doesn't address that in many ways men and women are different and as humanity much of our interaction is around how those differences interact.
17
MH. The point is, isn't it, changing those "givens" in people's minds. You seem to think that there are reasons other than prejudice driving this. Advertising should recognize societal change. The white men described here are hiding in their clubs and foursomes on the course. It seems now to be turning into a fortress mentality since the Madmen days. Why are ads so sexist anyway? It is conventional thinking like this that will leave agencies trapped in those views behind. I cringe when I see cleaning product ads aimed at women that ignore the fact a huge proportion of women are in the workplace. My husband does the laundry. So he is the one who picks out the detergent. Not me. The creative, forward thinking ads that reach us come from inclusive agencies. Why? Because they recognize a nimble mind is a terrible thing to waste (and that clear thinking often comes from a woman.)
19
Or you could be a civil human being instead of making excuses for yourself.
2
I don't recall anywhere in this article that discussed issues of men being attracted to their female counterparts and that that was an issue for the women interviewed. Instead, the examples were of one female executive being ignored while waiting with 2 men on the stage wings and the speaker coming off stage and only speaking to the 2 men and ignoring the female executive.
Another example discussed the chief executive of J. Walter Thompson allegedly grabbing a woman repeatedly by her neck. This is the not the actions of a man who is attracted to the woman he's grabbing by the neck, so much as a man who wants to let a woman know that he has power and control over her.
Another example discussed the chief executive of J. Walter Thompson allegedly grabbing a woman repeatedly by her neck. This is the not the actions of a man who is attracted to the woman he's grabbing by the neck, so much as a man who wants to let a woman know that he has power and control over her.
4
Just look at how sexist the advertising is. Doesn't matter if it's successful women reinforcing stereotypes, because only like thinkers, panderers, will get ahead in the business.
5
@lulu And let's not forget the women who voluntarily peddle themselves as sex objects, and as vapid humans. Reality TV is designed for, by Women. Guys don't tune into The Bachelor. Guys don't tune in the Kardashians. The women I know have self respect. I admire them because of how they handle themselves, the proper way they behave, dress, act and treat others. They never complain that they're being mistreated. Most have better jobs than I do. They earned it. How one presents oneself to the world has everything to do with how one is treated. I'm not diminishing sexism. I'm pointing out it is on the fast die and guys I know never talk about women in these ways. How about we look at how women treat women. That's a shocker. Ask Hillary Clinton if women stick together. Overwhelmingly women follow the vote of their boyfriend's or husbands. That is a tragedy.
1
I think you may have a point somewhere in here, but it was lost in the anecdotal evidence and broad generalizations...
2
So if men are running the show, it's their fault. If women are running the show, they're Quislings, and it's still men's fault.
Got it.
Got it.
4
I've been out of the ad game for several years but during the 90s, all the male executives bonded over golf and attending sporting events. I recall one executive stating that he never plays golf with women, not even his wife. So much for equal opportunities and inclusion. I was hoping it had changed but apparently, it has not improved much at all.
26
Quick question: do you actually play golf, or are you just someone who's mad that you didn't get to play a sport you dislike in order to prove your "equality"?
1
Its just golf.....
That being said, why not share some of your activities strictly with people of your own gender, whether you're man or woman
That being said, why not share some of your activities strictly with people of your own gender, whether you're man or woman
2
I work for a large advertising agency. All the successful people are women. My boss is a woman. Her boss is a woman. My previous boss was a woman. This place is run by woman. I can't speak of all agency but this is entirely not my experience.
9
EXHIBITIONISM Is the name of the game for those in advertising. Alongside a more than healthy dose of narcissism. On top of that, a heaping serving of competitiveness. Those characteristics are necessary in people who design ad campaigns, since they're vying for our attention in an ever more crowded and faster paced world of traditional as well as novel electronic media. Ads use the process of identification, so that the actors in them are meant to have viewers think, They're just like me. The other side of the coin is, of course, stereotypes. Where does one cross the line where association and affiliation become stereotyping; where identifying with others becomes bias and prejudice. Clearly in the fast paced world of advertising, such unconscious themes influence those who are successful. Deborah Tannen, in her masterpiece, You Just Don't Understand, observes that women typically communicate with the purpose of answering the question, Do you like me yet? While men typically communicate with the purpose of answering the question, Have I won yet? So they use language that is highly inflected and marked for gender differences. Ad executives would do well to study Tannen's book and incorporate her concepts into their business model so as to welcome the creativity and energy of the females on the mostly-male teams. Survey data about the impact of ads will show which gender focused messages succeed best with women and/or men. Creativity is where it's at, F or M.
I have read Deborah, Ann Campbell, and Dale Evans and am amazed at how few women read their work.
I am also amazed at how many women want men to solve their problems.
I am also amazed at how many women want men to solve their problems.
How many women actually prefer to work with men rather than women do to constant drama in a women-centric environment?
I've been told this by women, usually in a hushed tone, more than once. Here is the typical comment: "At least with the guys I know what I'm in for. Some are a little crude but after we get over the initial "break-in" and set some rules, things are so much smoother. We just come in and do our work".
We all are big girls and boys. You don't have to be a victim if you stand your ground. And that goes for both sexes. Sexism isn't particular to men (despite that being repeated ad nauseam). Men don't have secret meetings where we discuss how we want to oppress women.
I've been told this by women, usually in a hushed tone, more than once. Here is the typical comment: "At least with the guys I know what I'm in for. Some are a little crude but after we get over the initial "break-in" and set some rules, things are so much smoother. We just come in and do our work".
We all are big girls and boys. You don't have to be a victim if you stand your ground. And that goes for both sexes. Sexism isn't particular to men (despite that being repeated ad nauseam). Men don't have secret meetings where we discuss how we want to oppress women.
8
Wow. So its the fault of women for not standing their ground. But its okay to harass and see if you can get away with it. After all, women just need to be broken in.....
1
Here's a solution: Start your own advertising firm. Put out a sign and do things better than the good ole boys down the street. Then you can demonstrate that you are better than they are. If you are the real creative talent and your talents are going unrewarded, the free market lets you prove that to yourself and the world.
5
It's distressing to hear that sexism persists in an industry devoted to polluting human culture and destroying the world.
19
Yeah...that is what the author is saying. What a mess men have made with advertising. What if women had been involved decades ago.....maybe you could worry less.
2
First of all, these women work in ADVERTISING, a profession that has in many ways propped up and perpetuated stereotypes and biases of all different types of people - men, women, children, white, black, brown, whatever.
I sure hope none of these women have ever worked on an advertising campaign that features a scantily clad woman. If so, they're hypocrites.
I sure hope none of these women have ever worked on an advertising campaign that features a scantily clad woman. If so, they're hypocrites.
15
"I sure hope none of these women have ever worked on an advertising campaign that features a scantily clad woman. If so, they're hypocrites."
More than likely they did. Principles can be rather inconvenient.
More than likely they did. Principles can be rather inconvenient.
5
The advertising profession is an evil profession once run by men. Evil has no gender bias.
10
Oh yes, it's so evil... until you have something you want to have heard.
Maybe you have a business, and you need to get the word out - your family's livelihood and investment is at stake. Maybe you work for a non-profit, and you want to promote a cause that is important to you: fighting Alzheimer's disease, breast cancer, or injustice. Maybe you want to promote a candidate you believe in who you hope will change the country's direction.
Evil evil evil... unless it's on your side.
Maybe you have a business, and you need to get the word out - your family's livelihood and investment is at stake. Maybe you work for a non-profit, and you want to promote a cause that is important to you: fighting Alzheimer's disease, breast cancer, or injustice. Maybe you want to promote a candidate you believe in who you hope will change the country's direction.
Evil evil evil... unless it's on your side.
2
I'd like to know one great line of ad copy, one great ad campaign, written by a woman. Are there any?
4
That's the point....there could have been thousands....but they were fetching coffee with their Yale degrees for the boys from State U.
4
"Blondes have more fun"
2
The Aflac Duck campaign (Aflac) - Robin Koval and Linda Kaplan Thaler, Publicis Kaplan Thaler
The "I Heart NY" campaign - Jane Maas, Ogilvy & Mather
"Think different" (Apple) - Margaret Keene, Saatchi & Saatchi
"I don't want to grow up/I'm a Toys-R-Us Kid" - Linda Kaplan Thaler, Publicis Kaplan Thaler
"We do chicken right" (KFC) - Caroline Jones, Caroline Jones Advertising
The "I Heart NY" campaign - Jane Maas, Ogilvy & Mather
"Think different" (Apple) - Margaret Keene, Saatchi & Saatchi
"I don't want to grow up/I'm a Toys-R-Us Kid" - Linda Kaplan Thaler, Publicis Kaplan Thaler
"We do chicken right" (KFC) - Caroline Jones, Caroline Jones Advertising
15
Oh, the irony: Most of the ads i see today make fun of the "dumb, helpless dad" who forgot something at the store or who says something awkward. It takes the smart, all-knowing wife to come to the family's rescue.
I would be fired if I said something sexist or racist to a colleague. Why isn't this the same at advertising agencies?
I would be fired if I said something sexist or racist to a colleague. Why isn't this the same at advertising agencies?
17
Maybe you should take that up with the Creative Directors who brief, critique and approve those commercials, 90% of whom are men.
1
So tired of the barrage of articles, with women whining about their lot in life. In the last four months, the following industries have been examined in this whine-a-thon:
o Tech/Silicon Valley
o Investment Banking
o Movies/Hollywood
The ironic bit is that the Times asks some of the richest and most successful people (all women) to comment in these sob-articles.
...so just how bad is it, really? And how much of this constitutes pandering to the progressive/Democrats in the reader community?
o Tech/Silicon Valley
o Investment Banking
o Movies/Hollywood
The ironic bit is that the Times asks some of the richest and most successful people (all women) to comment in these sob-articles.
...so just how bad is it, really? And how much of this constitutes pandering to the progressive/Democrats in the reader community?
22
California Man, this comment just goes to show the entitlements men take for granted - especially those white men who are part of the establishment. Time for your thinking to evolve to the 21st century.
6
Boy am I tired of men like you complaining about articles like this. Afraid women might storm your bastion, or you are retired? Maybe you should go under the moniker California Fossil. Women, people of color, and ethnicity not like yours' deserve more places in the upper reaches of corporate and political America. Just because white men want to use prejudice to preserve their unearned privilege does not mean it doesn't exist. Funny thing, especially in the advertising game, the most forward thinking leave the fossils behind.
6
So true. What is going on with the editing here? Why is real news and analysis being displaced by puff piece after puff piece about 'privileged white men'?
2
Thanks to the New York Times and other media for talking about the 2 million pound elephant in the room - discrimination toward one-half of America's population - women. These comments in the article highlight the problems in overcoming it: “I still to this day, when I feel the blood boiling in me and I just want to let it all out, I cut it by 90 percent because I’m a woman,” she said." Women need to step up and call out sexist behavior and talk the moment they encounter it. Some men say they "didn't know" and it's high time they do.
“The biggest learning for me in all this is, as a woman who has always been accepted, tolerated, nurtured, et cetera, I never really digested that I was the exception.” Yes, this is perhaps the most maddening thing for average women because most women who "make it" have learned to think like a man, and go along, so the social conscience of women has been muted for OUR entire 240 year HIS story. Please, ladies, continue to speak out. It is time to educate the non-enlightened "minority" in America - men.
“The biggest learning for me in all this is, as a woman who has always been accepted, tolerated, nurtured, et cetera, I never really digested that I was the exception.” Yes, this is perhaps the most maddening thing for average women because most women who "make it" have learned to think like a man, and go along, so the social conscience of women has been muted for OUR entire 240 year HIS story. Please, ladies, continue to speak out. It is time to educate the non-enlightened "minority" in America - men.
24
Please, "ladies"? That perpetuates the stereotype. Unless you call the men "gentlemen," we women should be "women," not "ladies." I find that a patronizing term, too.
2
Good point, Susan. However, I often address ladies and gentlemen. It seems civil to me.
5
This argument about what to call women is on a par with all of
the talk about putting pictures of women on money. Who cares
whose picture they put on a bill or whether they say "ladies" or "women"? The only thing that really matters is equal sharing of
power and money in the workplace.
the talk about putting pictures of women on money. Who cares
whose picture they put on a bill or whether they say "ladies" or "women"? The only thing that really matters is equal sharing of
power and money in the workplace.
1
Lots of bile here against the ad business. A real evaluation would require more realistic discussion of how markets actually work and, beside the downsides, the benefits to consumers of competition for their dollars. Also, the idea that advertising is what causes of to consume stuff that is bad for us is nonsense. All you have to do is look at the gluttony, huge alcohol consumption, snuff, tobacco, gambling, incomprehensible clothing and palaces of the rich..etc...etc...of past eras to get that. (Full disclosure: I worked in the industry.)
Of course, that's partially off target of the main topic here. Ironically, it's possible this article intentionally used fascination, ala Madmen, with the ad industry to draw readership. For serious, real consideration of the evils of discrimination, perhaps better to discuss struggling, single working class moms, not the highly successful women here.
Of course, that's partially off target of the main topic here. Ironically, it's possible this article intentionally used fascination, ala Madmen, with the ad industry to draw readership. For serious, real consideration of the evils of discrimination, perhaps better to discuss struggling, single working class moms, not the highly successful women here.
8
Sexism knows no income or status boundaries, Fred. Apparently women who are married to very wealthy men have to justify their annual "allowances". One Wall Streeter said that "women are only half the population -why should we target them?" It is egregious, unacceptable thinking - stone age thinking.
13
Nice job of mansplaining. Do you practice it at home?
7
Here's an idea: Women must start whole new businesses and sectors and employ women exclusively, without any fear of sanctions.
Wait.. that already exists.
Wait.. that already exists.
5
I've worked in the ad business on huge global brands for years. Women are not only part of the team but respected members of the team, This article rings hollow to me.
22
The article isn't about whether women are part of the team—obviously, since we make up 50% of the advertising workforce, we're on the team. It's about 90% male dominance in the upper echelons of the industry. It rings hollow to you because you're a guy.
3
The investment in victimization has blinded many women. What's simply run of the mill politics for everyone who has ever worked in this field (I have) is internalized to the women in the piece as gender discrimination. I'm a male and I fought for years to get my proper pay rate. Now I have an agent and he does this for me. Many of the senior people at the advertising agencies and fashion companies I've worked for, are women. They are smart, clear, straightforward, in charge. We get along fine, but believe me, no one is more in control than the women I have worked with. I admire it, not because they are women. But because they are good at what they do. I don't know where this piece comes up with statistics and stories, but it certainly feels like an imaginary world based on my experiences in the film and advertising world. I'm curious, when an office has 4 women at the top of the chain and 1 man. Should men protest that it's discrimination? Maybe these women deserve the positions. They earned it. Just the same way many men at the top earned it. You can't have it both ways. Stop focusing on gender and suddenly merit becomes apparent.
19
That's a nice fairy tale, MCS. Repeating it does not make it so.
15
Well...you have outed yourself as a male and apparently one who is not paying attention. While you have been clawing your way upwards in the industry, have you noticed that you are not always the most qualified person...perhaps you have not been made aware of all the potential candidates to fill the jobs you are taking. Do you know that if you were a woman...you would have had to fight 50x harder over the same period you claim to have been fighting...just to be seen as equal? Do you think anyone has ever looked at you and thought that you might be getting pregnant soon and dropping out on pregnancy leave and then working part time from home? Do you think anyone ever looked at you and thought that your spouse is doing so well, that maybe you don't need the promotion as bad as others? Do you think that you have ever been judged as a little chubby or perhaps too curvy or or that perhaps your shirts don't match your eye color and those issues might weigh against your promotion? Do you think your agent, who is wiser than you on the industry economics, would be willing to represent you as readily knowing that he would only be able to get 60% of the commission that he would get on you due to the disparity in male-female pay?
I particularly did not understand your last spasm. You are saying that in the 99.9999% of the companies in the world run by 4 men and 1 woman, there is no discrimination. But in the 0.0001% of the firms, maybe only yours, where the opposite is true...?
I particularly did not understand your last spasm. You are saying that in the 99.9999% of the companies in the world run by 4 men and 1 woman, there is no discrimination. But in the 0.0001% of the firms, maybe only yours, where the opposite is true...?
17
I think it's the "people-hire-people-just-like-them" phenomena. Read Jack Welch's book -- From the Gut. Jack wrote about the people he promoted because his gut told him they were the right people. Now find out what they looked like. Yep. All white, male, bald engineers. Try this: reach out to 20 people who share your ethnicity. Then reach out to 20 people who don't. The number of people with your ethnicity who will respond is 4x that of the control. I know, this was my experiment!
2
Whether it be with women or any other group, in this industry or any industry, one must be vigilant re discrimination.
However, you also have to be vigilant re "playing the card".
It has happened in the past with blacks, spanish, women and yes white men ie since I was discriminated against and/or superior I am in a special class and must be treated better than the rest.
However, you also have to be vigilant re "playing the card".
It has happened in the past with blacks, spanish, women and yes white men ie since I was discriminated against and/or superior I am in a special class and must be treated better than the rest.
3
"Government is always bad; private enterprise is always better organized, more efficient, inherently superior to government..."
Of course. St. Market can fix everything, if only we stay out of his way. We humans are so foolish when we fail to accept dogma. Just as when we rejected the medieval Church and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.
3
In my time in the advertising industry, women ruled the roost. The same thing that they talk about in the article played the opposite way for me. Women would go out for manicures and pedicures and I'd be left holding their bags at the office. It definitely cuts both ways. I was regularly the only male on lunches and in meetings, and I was definitely held back because of my gender.
16
Well, any business where the top employees use the work day for personal hygiene is probably filled with deeper problems...or perhaps they were secretaries getting the pedicures and you couldn't tell the difference? They were just women to you.
Math skills matter. Would have been better for you to go to one of the 500,000 male dominated ad firms rather than the one female dominated firm.
Math skills matter. Would have been better for you to go to one of the 500,000 male dominated ad firms rather than the one female dominated firm.
3
I'm just sayin, you seem to have missed te point.
Your bias blinds you.
Why are you so dismissive towards Matt.
Your bias blinds you.
Why are you so dismissive towards Matt.
1
Because of all the things he could have said with his potentially helpful experience, he says 1) women...not men....take off time from work, 2) he specifies manicures and pedicures...what's the male equivalent?...a strip club or a poker game and 3) he goes on to talk about "holding" their bags....like what is that....shopping bags, they left him in charge of their purses.....And then he finishes with the absolute, unassailable, fully researched fact...that he was held back because he was a male. Not because he was poor worker or had a bad attitude....
I don't think that I or other readers missed his point. Surprised you think that just because someone reads his bias (which he didn't even bother to hide)....that they are biased for pointing it out.
I don't think that I or other readers missed his point. Surprised you think that just because someone reads his bias (which he didn't even bother to hide)....that they are biased for pointing it out.
2
I was in a media planning and buying shop in the 1990s. It was lead by a woman and all of her senior staff, save a single male, were women.
During discussion to junior employees, the CEO said she felt that women were better suited for the work and men would leave because they were not patient enough for the promotions and raises. As a male, I knew I had no future there.
More recently, the female EVP of our product team (Telecom) looked up at a stage of leaders (mostly men) and said "there's a problem with this picture". I should note that every significant promotion under this EVP has going to women. Coincidence?
Between 1990 and now women in leadership positions think nothing of denigrating men. When men say stupid things about gender, they get criticized. When women say them, it's empowering.
During discussion to junior employees, the CEO said she felt that women were better suited for the work and men would leave because they were not patient enough for the promotions and raises. As a male, I knew I had no future there.
More recently, the female EVP of our product team (Telecom) looked up at a stage of leaders (mostly men) and said "there's a problem with this picture". I should note that every significant promotion under this EVP has going to women. Coincidence?
Between 1990 and now women in leadership positions think nothing of denigrating men. When men say stupid things about gender, they get criticized. When women say them, it's empowering.
51
She's attempting to correct the imbalance. If there's a stage full of entirely men in senior positions, how is it wrong that she's trying to promote women? That's what men have been doing for years, and why the scales continue to be so drastically imbalanced. If it were perfect the way it is now, there would be equity on the stage of leaders, not the token woman in a sea of dudes. I realize this is about the advertising industry, but it exists in most every industry out there.
35
I was a member of an all-woman group led by a woman in a Fortune 10 company. The leader, it seemed, had been burned by a previous male employee who'd attempted a coup while she was on maternity leave; it seemed to have affected her subsequent hiring decisions, whether intentionally or not.
The irony is that I knew the coup leader from another job, and I honestly believe he would have behaved the same way whether the boss was male or female. He didn't try to upset the apple cart because she was a woman; it was merely because he saw the opportunity to strike while the alpha in the group was distracted.
Work groups are definitely stronger and more creative when they're comprised of a diverse mix of members - older, younger, male, female, multi-ethnic. Unfortunately, that goes against many leaders' ingrained and often subconscious fear of the "other."
The irony is that I knew the coup leader from another job, and I honestly believe he would have behaved the same way whether the boss was male or female. He didn't try to upset the apple cart because she was a woman; it was merely because he saw the opportunity to strike while the alpha in the group was distracted.
Work groups are definitely stronger and more creative when they're comprised of a diverse mix of members - older, younger, male, female, multi-ethnic. Unfortunately, that goes against many leaders' ingrained and often subconscious fear of the "other."
3
Carrie, you've pretty much proved my point.
No way could a man in a leadership position today explicitly say there are too many women in the next rung below him and actively promote men to balance it. He'd be hit with a discrimination lawsuit.
Women don't worry themselves about that as much, and do as they please because it's "equalizing".
No way could a man in a leadership position today explicitly say there are too many women in the next rung below him and actively promote men to balance it. He'd be hit with a discrimination lawsuit.
Women don't worry themselves about that as much, and do as they please because it's "equalizing".
1
Neither men nor women should create any advertisements whatsoever that allude to sexual attraction, marriage, procreation, or the procreated. This would help create a non-sexual/sexist atmosphere within ad agencies and the advertising community. Advertising, as the rest of the world, should recognize the absolute equality of men and women. Mort a la difference.
5
This actually sounds like a wonderful idea! Hold on to your dream!
I worked in a different industry but the attitude toward women still existed. It dwells in a man's mind because he is fearful of dealing with a women and can't relate to her. Easier to share sports and car comments with his male counterpart. Therefore, if he can't understand a woman, he dismisses her and it is easier to put her down rather than his male counterpart. The result is that women have become more knowledgeable and more confident and their actions show that. Which results in the male becoming more fearful of his job and therefore more fearful of a woman and more determined to keep her down. Never-ending saga.
4
Apparently the NY Times still felt that 8/10 of these portraits of women in advertising should be shot by men. Maybe it's time for them to acknowledge their own bias. There's absolutely nothing unique or distinctive about the style of these shots that couldn't have been achieved by a long women photographers.
26
Cmon. This is a gag comment, right?
2
C'mon. Cameras are very complex these days. Women can't use complicated digital cameras!
Well of course if women don't get exactly 50% or more of every gig in town that's evidence of discrimination. Funny, we never hear feminists complain about womens' non-50%-representation as garbage collectors, soldiers, or coal miners.
I worked for three female CEO's who built well-defined girl's clubs around them. It was exactly as the author described: exclusion, discrimination, questionable comments and jokes. One woman was particularly fond of talking about male genitalia, favoring the code word "sausage."
16
So....you are saying that they overlooked highly qualified male employees and instead promoted doofus females? That they would have meetings with important clients at day spas where male employees felt left out? That women employees were paid 40% more than male employees doing the same job? That males in meetings were asked to go fetch coffee for everyone else? That after a presentation to a client, that the advertising women and the client women would compliment the male presenter on how well his tie and shirt matched and how well he looked...had he lost some weight?
Not sure you are talking about the same thing as all of us are.
Not sure you are talking about the same thing as all of us are.
5
"Not sure you are talking about the same thing as all of us are."
You presume...
You presume...
2
I opened my own ad agency 25+ years ago, I can tell you with certainty that advertising reflects society, not the other way around. Look at our political landscape. One party is doing everything it can to take away women's reproductive rights, take away minority rights to vote. Hello!!!! Anyone home?
We have a zero tolerance policy for sexism or racism. Maybe because I was insulated from the insidious disease, did I not feel personally affected by it. Whenever I ran across a sexual comment, I either ignored it or hit them right back with a zinger that would shut them up. Works like a charm.
We have a zero tolerance policy for sexism or racism. Maybe because I was insulated from the insidious disease, did I not feel personally affected by it. Whenever I ran across a sexual comment, I either ignored it or hit them right back with a zinger that would shut them up. Works like a charm.
4
Advertising not only reflects culture; it shapes it. That is one reason women need more representation in this field. Interesting how both sexism and racism have gone, generally speaking, from blatant to subtle. The subtle may be more
Insidious.
Insidious.
1
How many ads present men as bumbling incompetent parents vs. women as bumbling incompetent workers. Even without a count, you know the answer.
There's plenty of sexism in advertising, but it's often against men.
There's plenty of sexism in advertising, but it's often against men.
11
There are many studies that show that looks and height affect career and promotion prospects whether man or woman. However only women can and do play the "looks" card deliberately.
2
And men don't...trying to remember the last time I saw a guy dressed in rumpled Dockers and backwards ball cap who thought he was on the fast-track.
3
Advertising is the flagrant manipulation of insecurities to sell illusions, hawking panaceas for lost souls with unfulfilled lives, resulting in wastes of planetary resources and pollution. If these women want self-respect and genuine meaning, what are they doing in advertising? Can anyone really expect to find truth, fairness or conscience in an industry that is opposite to these things at its core?
12
This has not been my experience in the ad business. I worked at a major NY agency as a staff producer beginning in the mid 80's. I subsequently freelanced at many of the top agencies also in NY. There were always women in positions of power i.e. creative director, head of production, account executive. In addition, and most importantly, no one was ever disrespectful to me in this regard. Nor did I see this culture with any of my female colleagues.
Ever. Period. So, I guess it depends on who you ask. Sure I believe there will be cases from time to time, and I don't doubt these women's personal experiences, but I would argue that this could happen in any industry, and it's not the norm.
Ever. Period. So, I guess it depends on who you ask. Sure I believe there will be cases from time to time, and I don't doubt these women's personal experiences, but I would argue that this could happen in any industry, and it's not the norm.
9
I am an old guy. I routinely use the 'honourifics' of 'Young lady, and Young man. Do I know their name or can I remember it rapidly, no, maybe not.
Yet one is not considered,"Young man.", the other is demeaning and sexist, "Young lady."
I can say. "Nice tie, how was your weekend?" to one, but when I say "That dress suits you, how was your weekend?" I am sexist.
Bull !
I don't care whether the person in front of me is black, white, male, female, pink, or purple (very few of those),, What I DO care about , is the job done. Is the job done well?
What I do find demeaning are, "Oh, poor me." articles.
Yet one is not considered,"Young man.", the other is demeaning and sexist, "Young lady."
I can say. "Nice tie, how was your weekend?" to one, but when I say "That dress suits you, how was your weekend?" I am sexist.
Bull !
I don't care whether the person in front of me is black, white, male, female, pink, or purple (very few of those),, What I DO care about , is the job done. Is the job done well?
What I do find demeaning are, "Oh, poor me." articles.
27
You sound like an "old guy".....
2
Ah yes, The NYT doing what it does best. Telling people that personal problems are "systemic" or "structural." Sexism persists! It's not me! It's everyone else! There! That should fix it!
13
Wow! Very insightful to read that a guy from Idaho doesn't think sexism is a problem caused by men....he thinks its caused by the victims.
7
So your response in opposition to a presumed prejudiced comment is to make a prejudiced comment?
3
Seems to me that sleazy behavior would come with the territory, and endurance of it the price of admission. Who expects professional con-men and fraudsters to behave honorably? Almost single-handedly, the advertising industry has turned the Seven Deadly Sins into celebrated Virtues -- with grievous damage to social solidarity and human dignity. To expect enlightenment from their males is simply puerile.
8
So, some dude in Brooklyn who knows nothing about advertising but thinks he dislikes the entire industry...that excuses men from misbehaving towards women?
5
Apparently, you also have issues with Brooklyn.
How is that any different.
And when does that stop?
You also refer to a bunch of people as "dude"
How is that different?
Its rather demeaning and a bit sexist, no?
How is that any different.
And when does that stop?
You also refer to a bunch of people as "dude"
How is that different?
Its rather demeaning and a bit sexist, no?
2
I am sure that if you want to assign proportions, advertising would represent 80% of the reason that I haven't had television for 20 years. For these people, I'd say that there's a 'you reap what you sow' predicament -- just trapped in a sorry, stupid world, and so who gives a hoot --
4
There's a wide range of work places that are narrow-minded a "boy's playground". Advertising is one, Universities another and Wall street is a third. Unless you stick to conformity (i.e. play along the WASP-male rules) you're in for a tough run.
*But* we have to expand the discussion beyond the work place. In US Metro areas young single women below the age of 35 make *more* money than men. Quite some even.
In Sweden - equality wise highly ranked and praised - those young single women make 20% *less* than their male counterparts! A figure that basically looks the same in all of Scandinavia and trough out big parts of Europe.
As for tope level managers... the US has almost twice the number of women per capita at that level compared to Sweden.
By comparison the US work place is a success when it comes to gender.
But then again - looking at women past 35, married with kids the ages plummets gain, far below the male counterparts. (In Sweden it stays at the sad 80%-level). Please note: I'm not saying anything about poverty here, just averages.
And let's be fair - after decades of legal fights, new rules and laws, the work places *have* changed. It's still bad, but it's better.
But the family setting is basically the same. It's where the notions of equality - or lack there of - is rooted. We can't leave the family out of the discussion. Sexists aren't born sexists; they are made. And although our workplaces may reinforce it or not, the ground is set elsewhere.
*But* we have to expand the discussion beyond the work place. In US Metro areas young single women below the age of 35 make *more* money than men. Quite some even.
In Sweden - equality wise highly ranked and praised - those young single women make 20% *less* than their male counterparts! A figure that basically looks the same in all of Scandinavia and trough out big parts of Europe.
As for tope level managers... the US has almost twice the number of women per capita at that level compared to Sweden.
By comparison the US work place is a success when it comes to gender.
But then again - looking at women past 35, married with kids the ages plummets gain, far below the male counterparts. (In Sweden it stays at the sad 80%-level). Please note: I'm not saying anything about poverty here, just averages.
And let's be fair - after decades of legal fights, new rules and laws, the work places *have* changed. It's still bad, but it's better.
But the family setting is basically the same. It's where the notions of equality - or lack there of - is rooted. We can't leave the family out of the discussion. Sexists aren't born sexists; they are made. And although our workplaces may reinforce it or not, the ground is set elsewhere.
3
Another deathly boring plaint about how women are victims in (yet another) industry.
Interestingly, one "victim" gets it. She said: "it isn't generational, it's cultural -- it's just the way it is". Too right.
There are dozens of studies that have determined that white men of less than "average" height are paid less well and promoted less often than other, taller, men.
Waiting for the NYT piece about 'height discrimination in the workplace'. (but won't hold my breath)
Interestingly, one "victim" gets it. She said: "it isn't generational, it's cultural -- it's just the way it is". Too right.
There are dozens of studies that have determined that white men of less than "average" height are paid less well and promoted less often than other, taller, men.
Waiting for the NYT piece about 'height discrimination in the workplace'. (but won't hold my breath)
12
All these manifold abuses and resulting complaints point to one thing: karma. If you participate in an evil activity, whether or not for remuneration, you'll be punished. Duping the public into using inorganic chemicals on their totally unnecessary lawns, into eating high-fructose corn syrup-laden foods and the whole lot of it, entails this ugly aspect of retribution. I can't squeeze out a single tear in this 15-second overamplified psychologically engineered segment for any ad people, sorry!
5
Since sex is a primary tool of advertising using primal drives as a way to make money, is it any surprise that there is a lapse of morality or a great sense of ethics revolving a clear definitive red line as far as sexual harassment in the work place of advertising of all places? This mixed message expectation is akin to expecting the employees of the Coliseum under Caligula's reign to treat others as you would have them treat you. The same Caligula that employed the motto, "Damnatio ad bestias" and regularly supported throwing the people occupying the first two rows of the Colosseum in front of the lions in the arena to appease the animal nature of the crowds.
If you really want to end sexual harassment in the workplace, end the practice of advertising and mass media entertainment that regularly uses maidens as objects to be treated as objects in order to sell everything from cars, washing machines, clothing, perfumes to circuses (remember to beautiful bearded ladies?). Women who chose to enter the field of advertising are very acquainted with the idea of sexuality used subliminally to entice consumers yet somehow feel that they are exempt from the same sort of objectification and callous idification (employing the id versus the superego or morality as a driver.) If women want to end sexual harassment within the field of advertising then they need to take a stand and refuse to participate in a profession that exploits women in order to make money for their clients.
If you really want to end sexual harassment in the workplace, end the practice of advertising and mass media entertainment that regularly uses maidens as objects to be treated as objects in order to sell everything from cars, washing machines, clothing, perfumes to circuses (remember to beautiful bearded ladies?). Women who chose to enter the field of advertising are very acquainted with the idea of sexuality used subliminally to entice consumers yet somehow feel that they are exempt from the same sort of objectification and callous idification (employing the id versus the superego or morality as a driver.) If women want to end sexual harassment within the field of advertising then they need to take a stand and refuse to participate in a profession that exploits women in order to make money for their clients.
8
I'm 75 and a retired executive. These articles help me make sense of my career. Thanks
1
Let’s face it: sexism is deeply embedded in our culture. We have come a long way in past few decades, but it is still an ongoing fight. Advertising is not here to change society. Advertising uses existing clichés that everyone can quickly recognise to get a sales message across as quickly as possible. That ad agencies will be one of the last bastions of the ideas that they need to espouse every day is lamentable, but not surprising. The only way things will change is through women standing up for their rights and fighting for their ideas, as difficult as that may be.
36
Rather than expecting the onus to be on women to fight for their ideas and to fight for a sexist-free work environment, men need to take responsibility for their own behavior. In addition, those at the top have to implement non-discrimination policies with some, "teeth" and need to mentor and promote more women and people of color.
2
Advertising is a soulless, damaging phenomenon. Billions of dollars spent every year on a useless, materialism "service" designed to manipulate people to purchase things they do not need. I make an efforts to buy products that do not advertise. Advertising has created industries where people are paid obscene amounts of money for creating very little. If adverting were eliminated, a new and more meaningful world would rise out of the ashes. Sexist inside and out? It goes without saying.
19
The problem with most of these anti-advertising diatribes is that the posters have no knowledge of what the industry does and how it benefits society as in selling products that create jobs. Unfortunately, the internet has given a forum to every ignorant opinion.
1
Wow, many of the comments by male posters here precisely illustrate how cavalier they are about the hostile work environments that women still endure. It's 2016 and it's not your stag party anymore fellas, get over yourselves already or be prepared to legally defend your sexist and boorish behavior.
11
Yeah...very depressing. I thought we were making progress over the last 50 years.....maybe related to all the conservative, Tea Party, Glenn Beck mumbo jumbo?
5
Women will start seeing equal #s in executive ranks when men, and our society in general, start to take serious accountability for child care, rather than letting it be something that women fit into their lives as if its simple, like doing an extra loan of laundry per week. We can fight the sexist stereo types and get past the biases in time, but we cannot take on another full time job mid way through our careers and still shine enough to get promoted. The sexist stereo type that all or most of the child rearing falls on the mother is what holds us back and allows men to shine at work just when the big promotions start mid career.
3
"...The sexist stereo type that all or most of the child rearing falls on the mother is what holds us back..."
Isn't this something that should be worked out with the father *before* deciding to have a child?
Or is the father not necessary anymore, so everyone else has to chip in?
Isn't this something that should be worked out with the father *before* deciding to have a child?
Or is the father not necessary anymore, so everyone else has to chip in?
Women are quite free to marry house husbands. The fact is that women, especially women with lots of choices in men, don't want to marry house husbands. Women also fight to keep their stereotypical role as primary caregiver should a marriage or relationship end in divorce or breakup.
It's not just as simple as men doing more child care. A man who wants to stay home with the kids is not going to find too many women who wish to be with him.
It's not just as simple as men doing more child care. A man who wants to stay home with the kids is not going to find too many women who wish to be with him.
"One reason, some executives said, is that there are currently other priorities in advertising, given the pressing challenges that stem from a broad shift in how people consume media."
Yes, those more pressing challenges...
Yes, those more pressing challenges...
2
There is no question that bias exists, but like other articles I've read on the subject, this one mostly misses the point. The bias is narrower. As a man in the business world, the one with a stable marriage who'd rather see a musical than play golf, I experienced many of the same things. And I was older than average too, and that bias was terrible and destructive too.
Like the women in this article, I was a top producer in spite of the ever present biases. The pressure to be a "man's man" is a constant, regardless of gender or age. One boss of mine expresses shock that I hadn't cheated on my wife in 25 years of marriage. I was the oddball, not him. The women are not alone.
Like the women in this article, I was a top producer in spite of the ever present biases. The pressure to be a "man's man" is a constant, regardless of gender or age. One boss of mine expresses shock that I hadn't cheated on my wife in 25 years of marriage. I was the oddball, not him. The women are not alone.
151
Yes, please, let's make it about you and your feelings of mild not-fitting-in discomfort, not about the harassment and chronic, sense-of-self-destroying belittling women experience, our inability to advance when men are self-absorbed and talk only to each other, and unemployment.
I get that you feel DL for being a sensitive guy. But when you're getting fired, not hired, not promoted, groped, and belittled daily for merely walking down the hall in the body you've rented for this life, you can talk about women's not being alone. In the meantime, perhaps you'd better acquire the same nerve the women have had to, show who you are, and fight.
I get that you feel DL for being a sensitive guy. But when you're getting fired, not hired, not promoted, groped, and belittled daily for merely walking down the hall in the body you've rented for this life, you can talk about women's not being alone. In the meantime, perhaps you'd better acquire the same nerve the women have had to, show who you are, and fight.
3
This comment reminds me of some people's response to, "Black Lives Matters" that, "All lives matter". Just as in that example, this article was exploring that there is still gender bias and discrimination in the ad industry and that does not negate that there are other biases and discrimination.
While all this may be true, the pressure is not worse for a man who likes musicals than it is for a woman.
I'm tired of people highlighting their ancedotes in place of institutional sexism and racism.
I'm tired of people highlighting their ancedotes in place of institutional sexism and racism.
I studied advertising in college. I loved so much about it, playing with language and creativity. And then I joined a small agency (thinking my work would be more visible). This was 1984. The CD and all creative leads were men. The lead ADs were men. All the other writers were men. There was one woman on the design staff. All other women were administrative. Four or five guys snorting coke while I tried to present my ideas was too much for small-town me. I left the agency and the industry after four months. I'm now a senior management consultant. The same attitudinal nonsense persists today. Not the coke, but the ogling, icky faux paternalism, etc. I hate watching fresh young things with ideas and hopes for their brilliant careers run into the brick wall of realization that it's going to be harder than they thought. Because of colleagues vs. work challenges.
4
"Women now make up almost 50 percent of those working in the advertising industry..."
"They recalled times when they were the only woman in meetings with both co-workers and clients."
Well, which is it, are women half the ad industry or are you the only female in the meetings? I seem to remember that Leo Burnett's board was lead by a woman when they sold the agency to Publicis, where is that mentioned?
"They recalled times when they were the only woman in meetings with both co-workers and clients."
Well, which is it, are women half the ad industry or are you the only female in the meetings? I seem to remember that Leo Burnett's board was lead by a woman when they sold the agency to Publicis, where is that mentioned?
4
You just made the entire point of the article....bravo! 100 men and 100 women at an agency.....a meeting of 20 is held with a client. Of the 20 agency employees, 19 are male, 1 is a female. Where is the problem ? You can pick 1) 8-9 doofus males were invited because they were at the most recent beer and football party and the highly qualified 8-9 women were in the office working or 2) that despite Ivy League degrees and high productivity, the 50% female employees were making coffee and preparing correspondence so the 50% state college fraternity brothers could go to the meeting......
And just so you know, when you try to make a point with a single counter example....it actually proves the opposite point. I am sure that George Wallace had a black gardener and that Antonin Scalia once hired a secretary that voted for Walter Mondale.
And just so you know, when you try to make a point with a single counter example....it actually proves the opposite point. I am sure that George Wallace had a black gardener and that Antonin Scalia once hired a secretary that voted for Walter Mondale.
4
"Rapey talk and grabby hands" ??
Who went to prison for this?
That was all I read. All men talk rapey, all men have grabby hands, that's the implication unless, if by reading this I would find, it says that she went to court. I can't read this.
Who went to prison for this?
That was all I read. All men talk rapey, all men have grabby hands, that's the implication unless, if by reading this I would find, it says that she went to court. I can't read this.
5
Two generations at least of American feminists have grown up criticising the way in which advertising way more often than not supports regressive views of women. We need more articles like this and about more different industries and professions. My guess is that it is still much worse in architecture, at least in the United States, but your article on that did not dig very deep. The recent spate of articles about Berkeley show that sexual harassment is tolerated in the highest ranks of academia, although, at least in the humanities, women have made real progress. Film has also been under the lens recently. Where are the successes and why do they work? And are fields, such as publishing, where women have real power devalued once they are more equitable? Salary comparisons help here!
1
Not that it's ok, but compared to Wall Street I see a whole lot more success for women on Madison Avenue. Or New York law firms. Or tech. Or a host of other industries. Women are dominant in many less glamorous professions like nursing or teaching. Does that make them any less important? No. So what's the message here? Equality is like world peace. It's a noble pursuit, but it may be equally as fleeting.
1
I recently attended the Rosey Awards, put on by the Portland Ad Federation. They had strippers. Female dancers gyrating around. I'm sure it was all meant to be very hipster faux ironic as Portlanders seem quick to boast that PDX has more strippers per capita than any other city in the States. I found it irritating especially after all the recent coverage of the JWT scandal. In 2016, strippers do not belong at awards shows unless it's the Video Vixens annual in Vegas. Enough already.
6
Wow. Each and every one of your readers should take this article as another good reason to stay out of the advertising industry. Look at these portraits. Well shot to be sure, and these women are successful no doubt. But what a combination of aggressiveness and a lack of standing for anything substantial, not to mention self engaged self obsessed.
I feel as if I am being accused, just looking at their expressions. And if I brought an idea to them, they would put the "not invented here" kibosh on it immediately. The only thing worse is the mega companies that employ and empower advertising agencies. What a business! No thanks.
I feel as if I am being accused, just looking at their expressions. And if I brought an idea to them, they would put the "not invented here" kibosh on it immediately. The only thing worse is the mega companies that employ and empower advertising agencies. What a business! No thanks.
2
Uh, dude, those are your issues. Not everyone else's. I see women posing for a photo, nothing else. It's a good thing you aren't in advertising because thin-skinned people like yourself don't last very long. The rest of us have a pretty good time and behave professionally. Yes, it's possible to do both.
4
I guess you would rather the women in the photos be smiling...
2
I was in it. Too long. Skin plenty thick. Saw finally nothing of substance in what we did or the people in charge, like these women. I saw very little professionalism. Enjoy your "career". Out.
2
My experience has been that relationships in organizations, regardless of their nature, are essentially tribal. The kinds of content-less discrimation that women experience is much the same as many men do, just less apparent.
This was clear from the very moment a candidate went through the employment screening process. While working for one the largest companies in the world years ago, I would be one of several who would perform the final stages of the interview process. In the evaluation form I would complete afterwards there were a series of detailed questions as to the suitability of the candidate which all appeared to be objective until the very last question when it simply asked, "Will they fit in?"
We understood exactly what was being asked, it was the "money question". They might as well have asked, "Will they perpetuate us or do we have a potential conflict here?"
Men could maneuver around the implicit discrimation that this tribal culture presented by identifying and attaching themselves to a sympathetic tribe, but women didn't have that option. They were largely individuals operating within male tribes who learned to superficially "fit in" in order to survive and prosper until they reached their glass ceiling, of course.
This was clear from the very moment a candidate went through the employment screening process. While working for one the largest companies in the world years ago, I would be one of several who would perform the final stages of the interview process. In the evaluation form I would complete afterwards there were a series of detailed questions as to the suitability of the candidate which all appeared to be objective until the very last question when it simply asked, "Will they fit in?"
We understood exactly what was being asked, it was the "money question". They might as well have asked, "Will they perpetuate us or do we have a potential conflict here?"
Men could maneuver around the implicit discrimation that this tribal culture presented by identifying and attaching themselves to a sympathetic tribe, but women didn't have that option. They were largely individuals operating within male tribes who learned to superficially "fit in" in order to survive and prosper until they reached their glass ceiling, of course.
5
It's bizarre that the NYT is running this story but has yet to mention that its CEO is being sued for discriminatory practices towards older black women in its own ad-sales departments. See http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/apr/28/new-york-times-ceo-sued-dis... and http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/29/new-york-times-laws....
44
As you point out....its being reported elsewhere. Does the NYT now have to re-report every story in the world....?
No, but it does have to be objective.
1
When the ad-fo-tainment industry stops using sex to sell toothpaste, shaving cream, "anti-aging" beauty products, shampoo, gender-based hygiene products, underwear, milk, juices, and butter (or Americans learn to develop a healthier European humorous regard for their own bodies), then maybe there can be a serious conversation about sexism in the ad agencies.
1
We need to all a a planet become more humanists. We are all humans, we all want to be treated fairly. Any person in any position should always treat others how they want to be treated. I guess I just don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to understand, but of course it has, and does, happen. Adversity can build character, but the characters that cause the harmful adversities should be dealt with swiftly. But there is poetic justice and someone who might be king or queen (or a mixture of both) of the hill when they are younger, can also be discriminated against as they age--ageism seems to be one of the last strongholds of discrimination--but at least that affects everyone across the board.
2
An article on industries and/or employers where women don't face discrimination might have more practical value. So far the New York Times has done a good job (with multiple articles) of saying where women should not work, but what about where they actually would be welcomed by employers and co-workers? (Or perhaps the answer is "Only the New York Times Company itself is a sufficiently enlightened employer"?)
After reading this story about how women are treated and regarded in the advertising industry, which pretty much reflects how they are treated in the military, in big business and in little business, I can begin to imagine changing my position on capital punishment regarding crimes committed against women by avowed sexist and misogynistic corporate and business executives and corporations and businesses in general. That may sound weird since there are no capital crimes on the book about such misogynistic practices but if there ever are, I'm ready to consider making that change.
You would seriously consider putting someone to DEATH for snubbing a woman as he comes offstage or for saying "Hey baby, looking good today"? What the heck are they teaching you at Hunter College?
7
The advertising industry has some serious denial issues. Only when clients (who depend on minorities for their profit) take them to task will anything change.
Women are not treated as equals, but neither are African Americans or Americans of Hispanic heritage. Just look at group photos of people in the agencies, especially in the managerial level, zero diversity.
For decades ad agencies like JWT, Ogilvy, DDB, FCB and the rest of usual suspects talk about change, and everything remains the same.
What Chris Rock said to the people at the Oscars, can be easily said to the entire advertising industry. It's an insulated fraternity of closed minded people.
Women are not treated as equals, but neither are African Americans or Americans of Hispanic heritage. Just look at group photos of people in the agencies, especially in the managerial level, zero diversity.
For decades ad agencies like JWT, Ogilvy, DDB, FCB and the rest of usual suspects talk about change, and everything remains the same.
What Chris Rock said to the people at the Oscars, can be easily said to the entire advertising industry. It's an insulated fraternity of closed minded people.
5
Is it weird to think, "Oh man, I wish they would sexually harass me"? At least then I would have made it past the "we really want to hire more talented young women of color" informational interview and been miraculously hired. - Confirmed Talented Young Black Woman of Color Trying to Break into the Ad Industry [For the record: sexual harassment is never acceptable.]
A thousand articles a day on racial discrimination...and one on gender discrimination. Until you showed up and said this article too needed to be about racial discrimination. 50% of the global population are women...including America's population. They are all discriminated against and its a problem....a problem that in its size dwarfs other types of discrimination.
1
Seems to me that since the early 80s (as a backlash to the women's rights/feminist movement), men in business have been circling the wagons: sexism may not be as blatant but it's still rampant in terms of who gets hired, mentored, paid well and promoted. Men have rewritten the rules to keep women down and out. From advertising to Hollywood--women are still treated as beautiful playthings and objects or not worth attention or merit. And though younger women are making gains in the workforce, I still see them unconsciously playing the game promoted on TV--dress the part, don't speak up, and don't act uppity.
78
Perhaps the backlash is due to men being told that every thought, feeling and impulse they have towards women is wrong. Never feel sexual, never act assertive, testosterone is poison, all intercourse is rape (thank you Andrea Dworkin) and only act, think, talk and feel in the ways defined as narrowly as possible so women will feel OK. IOW, become women.
Now, I must say this because if I don't hellfire will rain down on me: thoughts, feelings and impulses are different from behavior. Bad behavior from both men and women should not be tolerated. Had the women's movement stopped at discussing and condemning men's bad behavior then OK. But it didn't. It went way too far in condemning the essence of masculinity and has continued to try to do so.
I say some of the backlash is deserved.
Now, I must say this because if I don't hellfire will rain down on me: thoughts, feelings and impulses are different from behavior. Bad behavior from both men and women should not be tolerated. Had the women's movement stopped at discussing and condemning men's bad behavior then OK. But it didn't. It went way too far in condemning the essence of masculinity and has continued to try to do so.
I say some of the backlash is deserved.
6
How things "seem" to you is just your bias. "Men have rewritten the rules to keep women down and out." What a fantasy! Women are dominant in many fields of their own choosing, favored at every step of their development through college, and are now the gatekeepers of who gets hired via HR departments. And yet, you still think women are too stupid to see through fashion magazines and TV shows, which, in any case, never tire of presenting women as smarter and stronger than the men around them. You're living in a past long gone.
1
If posting pictures of scantily clad and sexy women creates an antagonistic workplace doesnt it follow that when women choose to dress sexy they are creating an antagonistic workplace? What power does the picture have over the person? Its time to rethink gender politics and understand there will always be basic level of conflict between the sexes that gets played out in different ways.
14
Really, do you have scantily clad women working in your workplace? (dressed similarly to the pinup girls on the walls)
What line of work are you in?
What line of work are you in?
4
I wish you hadn't bothered to add the diversity officer to the story. She's clearly not a player, and it's just depressing and highlights the gender and race issues that plague this industry. It's fab that the rest of the women featured are making bank, and have learned to swallow hard to continue earning said bank. But I don't envy them, at all. It's too high a price to pay to create dreadful ad campaigns for lifestyles and items that most of us don't need and/or can't afford.
77
She was probably added because that was the only minority woman they could find; basically confirming the article's premise that majority men are in charge and things go they way they want.
7
Yes, Kay, and the article clearly states that many women are still afraid to speak out. THAT must change.
3
It's NYT way to be PC. Diversity officer in an ad agency makes no difference. I have never seen one in all my years in my client presentation or planning meetings.
Obviously one has sympathy for credentialed women who are overlooked for their less credentialed male colleagues. Even more so for those who are sexually harassed.
However the challenge for women is to change the default perception that poor resides with the male. Pretty obviously this is a statistical challenge: if more women occupy positions of power (50% or more, say) the default will change.
Naturally, this implies that more women need to get into more positions of power. What is the optimal way forward here? Is it to make a whole bunch of concessions to the psychology of women? Or should women simply compete head to head with men, deal with the particular forms of adversity that come their way and let the chips lie where they fall?
If credibility as equals is the goal then has to be the latter. This may not however, be the most desirable course.
Perhaps the greater good is best served by down regulating competitiveness & relentlessness and up regulating cooperation, sensitivity & deference?
Unknown at this point but it is hard to see the pace of innovation, creativity or technological improvement being the same without individuals being committed to outperform their peers (aka: competitors).
Of course, this is not all there is to the quality of life but it does in fact contribute a great deal. Deference, sensitivity, collectivism admirable qualities though they may be are not strongly associated wth progress and innovation.
Go figure.
However the challenge for women is to change the default perception that poor resides with the male. Pretty obviously this is a statistical challenge: if more women occupy positions of power (50% or more, say) the default will change.
Naturally, this implies that more women need to get into more positions of power. What is the optimal way forward here? Is it to make a whole bunch of concessions to the psychology of women? Or should women simply compete head to head with men, deal with the particular forms of adversity that come their way and let the chips lie where they fall?
If credibility as equals is the goal then has to be the latter. This may not however, be the most desirable course.
Perhaps the greater good is best served by down regulating competitiveness & relentlessness and up regulating cooperation, sensitivity & deference?
Unknown at this point but it is hard to see the pace of innovation, creativity or technological improvement being the same without individuals being committed to outperform their peers (aka: competitors).
Of course, this is not all there is to the quality of life but it does in fact contribute a great deal. Deference, sensitivity, collectivism admirable qualities though they may be are not strongly associated wth progress and innovation.
Go figure.
3
"Deference, sensitivity, collectivism admirable qualities though they may be are not strongly associated wth progress and innovation"
innovation, no. progress, yes.
innovation, no. progress, yes.
2
You sure wasted a lot of words to say nothing that had any substance.
2
I was a "Mad Man" in the sixties and seventies with FCB and others and women had a problem. But I was involved with women who " rose above it" and did very well. As I recall, Shirley Polykof (?) was very successful because of her Clairol campaigns. (Better paid than Cone?)
All changes, all remains the same. I owe a lot to a "woman" in the seventies who figured out what was going on and made a decision, the end result of which was very beneficially financially
good for me!
As I recall women have headed major agencies. Not sure how to react to this "complaint"
All changes, all remains the same. I owe a lot to a "woman" in the seventies who figured out what was going on and made a decision, the end result of which was very beneficially financially
good for me!
As I recall women have headed major agencies. Not sure how to react to this "complaint"
1
Just curious. If an ad agency is mainly aggressively gay men, do they make a hetero male feel awkward by referring to his body, lack of style, etc. and exclude him if possible? By pass him maybe?
Involved with a woman, Rudy? Does that mean having an affair? If so, she would be accused of "sleeping her way to the top". That was the male accepted reason for women being successful back then.
1
njglea, you read it wrong. "Involved with women." Plural, not singular and obviously referring to professional relationships.
It seems that these alleged sexist men have gotten away with their behavior or eons. The time has come for racism and sexism be dealt with. Yet how will Trump or Clinton address our national racism? The Clinton Foundation has done little or nothing to rectify these issues, particularly in the southern states or to help those that have fallen into poverty due to NAFTA and reform of the Glass/Steagal laws that cause jobs to go overseas and factories to close.
15
The absolutely most sexist ad on TV today is the one where the guy thinks he looks cool in a family van and looks disgusted when he picks up his daughter and her friends and his fantasy is destroyed. Who let that one get through?
51
To FF: I thought he (at least was supposed to) looked happy the whole time. He was happy going there (sexy and looking happy) and then even happier when they all piled in (a proud dad). I liked it and I watch very few ads. I'm a TiVo person.
3
I think you seriously missed the boat on that ad. As a man, with a daughter, I see the ad as exactly what it is intended to be. The good looking guy driving a good looking car, and while you might think he is an arrogant overconfident dude., when his daughter arives with her friends he smiles grandly, and that shows what his priorities are. My daughter is grown now, but it made me remember the wonderful chaos of driving her and her friends around from swim team or basketball practice. I was a good looking guy with a great car, but none of that came into play. It was simply joy at watching her growing up and interacting with her friends, and the silly things that little girls do; singing songs together on the radio, etc. I'm surprised you didn't get that.
6
The SUV driving dad in the Lexus? I thought just the opposite. He thinks he's cool jammin the tunes, and then he's still cool picking up his kids. Dad doing his job - totally not sexist - absolute equality. Perhaps it's your lens that tainted the ad?
5
Stop your whining and channel Peggy. Oh the tragic lives of white women at the top of their profession! Cry us all a river!
48
Spoken like a true man, bradd graves.
5
I'll take that as a compliment, though of course your intent is otherwise.
No doubt seism exists. It is rampant and ugly and the men are retrograde bores.
That said, it feels as if the women cited might need to learn more assertiveness in interaction. Not be unpleasant, just more self assured.
I'm a man who hates sports and, too, have been left out of these all male gatherings. Instead of assuming it's sexism, actually it's a cultural thing I'm not into. So, I assert myself as being clearly and proudly anti-sport, and they seem to get it.
That said, it feels as if the women cited might need to learn more assertiveness in interaction. Not be unpleasant, just more self assured.
I'm a man who hates sports and, too, have been left out of these all male gatherings. Instead of assuming it's sexism, actually it's a cultural thing I'm not into. So, I assert myself as being clearly and proudly anti-sport, and they seem to get it.
20
I do not care for sports myself -- but if my company was having an outing at a basketball game (free tickets!) and socializing was a part of my business -- I'd manage to force myself to go.
There will always be events and social ops that don't appeal to one gender or the other. If the social outings were ballet -- rather than sports or golf -- and the MEN didn't want to go -- would that make it better?
There will always be events and social ops that don't appeal to one gender or the other. If the social outings were ballet -- rather than sports or golf -- and the MEN didn't want to go -- would that make it better?
I get left out, as well, because I don't watch sports on TV. And I get left out of nights out because I'm not high up enough for this one group. So instead I hang out with men and women who are more accepting.
1
You, unfortunately, only seemed to have read (or retained) the one example about being left out of sports. It might be worth re-reading the article to see some of the other examples mentioned.
Many men don't know how to engage professionally with a woman; they've been conditioned their whole lives to assess women for their sexual suitability and, barring that, to dismiss them as not worth their time.
174
Where is this coming from? Seriously?
22
She's right. I am a single woman in my mid-40s and I am often asked by men where my husband is or what he does for a living. Well I tell them I don't have a husband their eyes glaze over and they move on, and I am left feeling like I don't exist and my accomplishments don't matter.
36
Where is this coming from? Are you serious?
It's coming from the reality, the truth, of the continuing disparity in the balance of power between men and women; of the ever-increasing objectification of women; of the misogyny that men don't even bother to try to conceal anymore.
For the vast majority of women, success is still metaphorically or literally one long casting couch.
It's coming from the reality, the truth, of the continuing disparity in the balance of power between men and women; of the ever-increasing objectification of women; of the misogyny that men don't even bother to try to conceal anymore.
For the vast majority of women, success is still metaphorically or literally one long casting couch.
37
We've come quite far from the "mad men" days but the impact still remains. If sexism in the industry didn't exist, there would be a lot more than only 11% of executives become female. I believe what these women are saying is true; it's non blatant sexism but more subtle. Many of the executives commented that they felt invisible. Women in the workplace often are overlooked and it needs to be changed. Maybe we can start with equal pay for equal work. Once men and women are paid equally, maybe they will finally be seen as equals. Actually seen and not dismissed or ignored.
68
In the late 60s I met many many women who worked with my DH on the creative side in advertising and they weren't held back. In other fields women definitely were held back at the time. Women were in medical school and law school...but rarely in business school.
Also in ads men are shown in cars and women are in the kitchen for a reason. This is carefully thought out...you want the usual decision maker shown for each product category.
Also in ads men are shown in cars and women are in the kitchen for a reason. This is carefully thought out...you want the usual decision maker shown for each product category.
2
"The usual decision maker"? What century do you live in? I've chosen which car to buy and my husband has chosen which laundry detergent for decades. There are many single boomer and millenials women who do both.
116
Well, it is 2016 and just as many women buy cars as men, though you would never know it from the advertising....automotive advertising accounts are incredibly lucrative, high status and desirable so I am making a wild guess this field is still heavily dominated by guys.
But products for the home....kitchen stuff....decorating stuff....who are we kidding here? You can show a dude in an apron cooking dinner, but that won't sell pots & pans or electric ranges to guys -- it will actually turn them off. And it won't sell the product to women either. This is probably also true for child-oriented merchandise or services. Men have no interest in it, so it makes no sense to market it to them.
Advertising has always lagged well-behind actual social change. Despite the hipster clothing and attitudes, it is really a VERY stodgy business.
But products for the home....kitchen stuff....decorating stuff....who are we kidding here? You can show a dude in an apron cooking dinner, but that won't sell pots & pans or electric ranges to guys -- it will actually turn them off. And it won't sell the product to women either. This is probably also true for child-oriented merchandise or services. Men have no interest in it, so it makes no sense to market it to them.
Advertising has always lagged well-behind actual social change. Despite the hipster clothing and attitudes, it is really a VERY stodgy business.
42
Not to be rude here, but the fact you met women who worked with your husband doesn't necessarily mean you're in any position to judge whether or not they were held back. You're seeing them in a social setting, you're seeing them through your husband's eyes, and I'm going to say - with all due respect - you have no idea.
2
Oh these poor women. Spending their lives telling lies and shilling for corporations. Then convincing people to buy junk they don't need, No pity from me. "Chief creative officer." What a joke. There's nothing creative here other than pandering to some CEO.
86
You may wish to note that some of these execs, like my mother, also write and produce major campaigns for public or non-profit organizations, such as gun control, AIDS, bullying, etc...
I guess your job is, what... judging others from your high horse?
Equality for all means we get equal pay and treatment no matter what career path we choose-- even if you don't like it.
I guess your job is, what... judging others from your high horse?
Equality for all means we get equal pay and treatment no matter what career path we choose-- even if you don't like it.
8
Wow, George, I guess this topic makes you really angry. Professional women in many fields know the routine. When she speaks up, just put her down, call her a joke and maybe that will convince women to keep quiet and not to bring up these uncomfortable facts.
6
The racism and sexism reported here are contemptible. And yet.... Things are equally bad in many other sectors of business and society, and in most people's lives the plutocracy is even more powerful than the patriarchy.
The ad business seems to be the full flower of the plutocracy and the patriarchy is along for the ride. Perhaps they are inseparable.
The ad business seems to be the full flower of the plutocracy and the patriarchy is along for the ride. Perhaps they are inseparable.
2