Is your view of morality more valid than another's.? Are you pro life in vigorously opposing the death penalty?? If not, you are not pro life. Do you vote for politicians who refuse medicaid, cut food assistance, housing assistance, cut education funds,job training? Then you are not pro life and you are participating in the slow death of the children and adults affected by these cuts.
4
"Thou shalt not kill" covers a lot of ground.
Religions have been trying work out the rules on exactly what that means for eons.
Are we implicitly allow to kill animals? Yes under the Judeo-Christian religion, but NO under some other equally important far Eastern religions.
Is killing of self covered?
Abortion is just one of many termination issues that we'll be facing going forward.
Women got the vote, the right to work, and are getting the right to have full, equal status with men. They will also get the right to control their bodies and their health (as men can).
Religions have been trying work out the rules on exactly what that means for eons.
Are we implicitly allow to kill animals? Yes under the Judeo-Christian religion, but NO under some other equally important far Eastern religions.
Is killing of self covered?
Abortion is just one of many termination issues that we'll be facing going forward.
Women got the vote, the right to work, and are getting the right to have full, equal status with men. They will also get the right to control their bodies and their health (as men can).
1
regulate (vt): "to direct or control" Regulation, is by definition, restrictive -- involving, by definition, requiring some actions, discouraging some, and forbidding others.
So, for example, margin requirements for stock markets clearly forbid highly leveraged transactions -- and lessen access for some potential participants.
Seems to this reader that abortion is a poster child for the usefulness of regulation. Women with unwanted pregnancies (many of whom are highly stressed and poorly informed) are ready targets for abuse. They are, for example, unlikely to undertake due diligence regarding what happens if the operation goes wrong. Appropriate regulations for abortion clinics could remedy this particular situation.
Some regulations are useful, and some not. However, Ms. Greenhouse seems to think that any expansion of regulations dealing with abortion must be the result of evil intent, or a crypto abolition movement.
Undoubtedly some abortion regulations are ill advised but that's true in virtually every aspect of human activity which encounters the (ever-expanding) regulatory state.
Lighten up, Linda. This is a matter for policy debate, not morals or human rights. Meaning that assuming every regulation dealing with abortion is bad or wrong-headed just doesn't cut it any more.
So, for example, margin requirements for stock markets clearly forbid highly leveraged transactions -- and lessen access for some potential participants.
Seems to this reader that abortion is a poster child for the usefulness of regulation. Women with unwanted pregnancies (many of whom are highly stressed and poorly informed) are ready targets for abuse. They are, for example, unlikely to undertake due diligence regarding what happens if the operation goes wrong. Appropriate regulations for abortion clinics could remedy this particular situation.
Some regulations are useful, and some not. However, Ms. Greenhouse seems to think that any expansion of regulations dealing with abortion must be the result of evil intent, or a crypto abolition movement.
Undoubtedly some abortion regulations are ill advised but that's true in virtually every aspect of human activity which encounters the (ever-expanding) regulatory state.
Lighten up, Linda. This is a matter for policy debate, not morals or human rights. Meaning that assuming every regulation dealing with abortion is bad or wrong-headed just doesn't cut it any more.
A lot of this debate is on grounds of what is moral or not - depending on one's religion or point of view. And as many have pointed out, there are millions on either side of the argument.
I think this could be resolved more clearly though - and Donald Trump's remarks to Chris Matthews two weeks ago are indeed clarification. The objective of this moral crusade is to take away a right currently held by women in our country, and turn women into criminals. Not only that - but there "should be punishment" in the Republican front runner's own words, for a woman who has an abortion. As I understand from my high-school sex ed class, it takes a man and a woman to create a pregnancy. He does not believe - nor have I seen any of the pro-life movement suggest that the male should be punished for an abortion should this right be taken away from 51% of our population. I suggest, then, by simple DNA paternity tests which can be performed quickly with modern technology - that any male who caused such a pregnancy and subsequent illegal abortion be similarly charged, convicted and punished - equally and fairly.
Once such a law is proposed - I suspect this entire argument will largely dissolve, morality or not.
I think this could be resolved more clearly though - and Donald Trump's remarks to Chris Matthews two weeks ago are indeed clarification. The objective of this moral crusade is to take away a right currently held by women in our country, and turn women into criminals. Not only that - but there "should be punishment" in the Republican front runner's own words, for a woman who has an abortion. As I understand from my high-school sex ed class, it takes a man and a woman to create a pregnancy. He does not believe - nor have I seen any of the pro-life movement suggest that the male should be punished for an abortion should this right be taken away from 51% of our population. I suggest, then, by simple DNA paternity tests which can be performed quickly with modern technology - that any male who caused such a pregnancy and subsequent illegal abortion be similarly charged, convicted and punished - equally and fairly.
Once such a law is proposed - I suspect this entire argument will largely dissolve, morality or not.
1
It is hard to believe this is a conversation so many years after Roe v Wade. I partly blame the democrats who make weak statements like "I believe abortion should be infrequent but legal." Or "can you at least make it legal in the case of rape or incest." Or "maybe we can compromise on the WHEN it is legal. Dems: there should be no compromise. It is the woman's right to become a parent when she chooses. Nobody else, not her husband, not loud-mouthed politicians. And I say this as a woman who would not have had an abortion herself. No compromise: save a woman's right to choose.
4
When a Spartan woman delivered a unwanted child it was left in the cold to die. With modern medical science in the 21st century we have become much more efficient Spartans.
Is having unprotected sex a medical decision? Isn't this where "reproductive choice" begins? The man made her do it. Women are weak because of men. "Abortion is the fault of patriarchy."
"I feel like I'm standing on a playground where the little boys are all screaming at each other, 'He started it!' and throwing rocks that keep taking out another eye, another tooth. I keep looking around for somebody's mother to come on the scene saying, 'Boys! Boys! Who started it cannot possibly be the issue here. People are getting hurt."
I give credit to Barbara Kingsolver for the above quote.
"I feel like I'm standing on a playground where the little boys are all screaming at each other, 'He started it!' and throwing rocks that keep taking out another eye, another tooth. I keep looking around for somebody's mother to come on the scene saying, 'Boys! Boys! Who started it cannot possibly be the issue here. People are getting hurt."
I give credit to Barbara Kingsolver for the above quote.
1
Overpopulation, dead oceans, polluted land, and greenhouse gasses have pretty much put a lid on the ole '......go forth and multiply....' idea, and robots will quickly promote the need for quality over quantity in human procreation.
Crude as it is, abortion is only one of the tools that are necessary to promote and insure the survival of the species. We need to stop blubbering about the irrelevant and get on with finding ways to promote the interests of ALL humans (aka ALL of God's children)........not just the passing fancy of temporary love that Republicans reluctantly give out to "others" to assuage their own consciences, fight their wars of fear and greed, serve as minimum wage slaves to forward their economic advantage, or otherwise use to fulfill some personal self service in the name of caring or charity.
Procreation, the protection of offspring, and other 'unchained' biological processes will ultimately work themselves out once we turn our primary focus on promoting humanity rather than self.
Ask not what you can do for yourself. Ask what you can do for your fellow man. In effect, in a democracy, (government is the protector and promoter, aka a proxy, for humanity), and self benefits from the platform and wealth creation resulting from beneficent, democratic governance.
We've just been misled by a Republican and as a result have be using the wrong worlds and promoting the wrong interests for for the past 52 years based on a few misplace words.
Crude as it is, abortion is only one of the tools that are necessary to promote and insure the survival of the species. We need to stop blubbering about the irrelevant and get on with finding ways to promote the interests of ALL humans (aka ALL of God's children)........not just the passing fancy of temporary love that Republicans reluctantly give out to "others" to assuage their own consciences, fight their wars of fear and greed, serve as minimum wage slaves to forward their economic advantage, or otherwise use to fulfill some personal self service in the name of caring or charity.
Procreation, the protection of offspring, and other 'unchained' biological processes will ultimately work themselves out once we turn our primary focus on promoting humanity rather than self.
Ask not what you can do for yourself. Ask what you can do for your fellow man. In effect, in a democracy, (government is the protector and promoter, aka a proxy, for humanity), and self benefits from the platform and wealth creation resulting from beneficent, democratic governance.
We've just been misled by a Republican and as a result have be using the wrong worlds and promoting the wrong interests for for the past 52 years based on a few misplace words.
2
It´s disconcerting the number of GOP women who turn a blind eye to the GOP´s extremist assault on women.
GOP congresswoman McMorris Rodgers for example voted against the Fair Pay Act insisting that women do get paid equally, and sees no problem with overturning roe vs wade taking away a woman´s right to choose or dismantling planned parenthood entirely, supports the personhood law essentially abolishing abortion entirely, and banning the pill through constitutional
amendment.
GOP congresswoman McMorris Rodgers for example voted against the Fair Pay Act insisting that women do get paid equally, and sees no problem with overturning roe vs wade taking away a woman´s right to choose or dismantling planned parenthood entirely, supports the personhood law essentially abolishing abortion entirely, and banning the pill through constitutional
amendment.
For a variety of reasons, it's just a bad idea to compel people to have children they don't want. I was listening to a judge give a talk on our Homeless Court here yesterday. She says she goes to places like Rotary, and they just say, "Why don't they just get a job?" I do not trust people with this mindset to make decisions about abortion or much else. They have no compassion, nor do they want to have it.
5
If abortion is to be discouraged then attitudes defining sexual behavior, "risky" or otherwise have to be brought up to date. Women don't get pregnant by themselves.
These laws it must be noted are passed by an overwhelming majority of men, not women, but men. If nothing else, the passage of these restrictive laws should bring into focus just who among us considers abortion to be in need of restriction and that does not appear to be women.
I would not want anyone to have the power, legislative or otherwise, telling me what I can do with my body and my sense is the fetus, until viable outside a woman's body, is part of her body and only her body.
These laws it must be noted are passed by an overwhelming majority of men, not women, but men. If nothing else, the passage of these restrictive laws should bring into focus just who among us considers abortion to be in need of restriction and that does not appear to be women.
I would not want anyone to have the power, legislative or otherwise, telling me what I can do with my body and my sense is the fetus, until viable outside a woman's body, is part of her body and only her body.
2
An important reminder:
Criminalizing abortion does not reduce abortion rates. This is not conjecture but empiric fact, tracked over time and over cultures in many studies.
So many write as though criminalizing abortion would have an actual effect on "saving babies." What choice opponents see as babies.
This is just not true.
The reality is that criminalizing abortion only increases mortality and morbidity rates among women.
Including the 35% of us, here in America, who have had or will have abortions.
You know, the one third of all females who belong in prison if abortion is indeed the murder of a human being.
Criminalizing abortion does not reduce abortion rates. This is not conjecture but empiric fact, tracked over time and over cultures in many studies.
So many write as though criminalizing abortion would have an actual effect on "saving babies." What choice opponents see as babies.
This is just not true.
The reality is that criminalizing abortion only increases mortality and morbidity rates among women.
Including the 35% of us, here in America, who have had or will have abortions.
You know, the one third of all females who belong in prison if abortion is indeed the murder of a human being.
4
@ Connie
The words a person would use are "It's a personal decision that a women has the right to decide for herself". Or, a shorten version "It's none of your business!"
The words a person would use are "It's a personal decision that a women has the right to decide for herself". Or, a shorten version "It's none of your business!"
2
No one that I have ever spoken with on the topic thinks that abortion is anything but a measure to be taken only with serious thought. No one thinks that it is a suitable method of birth control.
A woman's body is her own and she should be the only one to make such a decision as to have an abortion. If we do not recognize that, America will be headed for the old way: back-alley, illegal, unsanitary, dangerous practices.
A woman's body is her own and she should be the only one to make such a decision as to have an abortion. If we do not recognize that, America will be headed for the old way: back-alley, illegal, unsanitary, dangerous practices.
3
A thought for all those "Bernie or bust" voters: If this remains your strategy, expect a President Trump, Cruz or Kasich to continue to curtail abortion rights. Yes, elections have consequences.
2
Not too many years ago, many evangelicals believed that life began at birth and cited the bible for the proposition. And the Jewish view, as I understand it, is that if a choice must be made, the mother's life must be saved at the expense of the fetus. So the anti-abortion crowd is imposing a particular religious view that not shared by all religions and is not even unambiguous Christianity. Of course, Catholicism is against contraception as well; against anything that might limit the increase in their numbers.
1
The pro-life cause is the human rights issue of today. It is as important as the civil rights movement was in the 1960s. We must continue standing up for the rights of the unborn. We must never give up on this very important life issue. Our society will thank us years from now.
What is immoral is the ongoing attempt by Evangelicals and other ultra-conservative Christians to subvert the constitution by imposing their religious values on society as a whole.
The pro-choice movement also bears responsibility for the anti-abortion momentum, by being nice and naive to a fault. The religious bullies use rough, even brutal street fighting tactics, the nice guys continue to adhere to the Queensberry rules. It's time the good guys learned to behave badly when necessary. Bullies are cowards, and when they come under the same sort of physical attacks they have subjected abortion clinics and activists to, they will fold, like bullies always do. People are attracted to sincerity. Guys willing to go the extra mile for what they believe in, even if that means chucking the rule book look more motivated and sincere than those who don't.
The pro-choice movement also bears responsibility for the anti-abortion momentum, by being nice and naive to a fault. The religious bullies use rough, even brutal street fighting tactics, the nice guys continue to adhere to the Queensberry rules. It's time the good guys learned to behave badly when necessary. Bullies are cowards, and when they come under the same sort of physical attacks they have subjected abortion clinics and activists to, they will fold, like bullies always do. People are attracted to sincerity. Guys willing to go the extra mile for what they believe in, even if that means chucking the rule book look more motivated and sincere than those who don't.
1
Terrific article, with one exception: the media should stop using the term "pro-life" to describe anti-abortion activists. Every decent human is "pro-life." Abortion rights activists are not "anti-life." Please, let's not let the anti-abortion zealots dominate the terminology used in this fight, as they have so recently dominated the lawmaking process. Words matter.
20
Those attempting to restrict a woman's right are not "pro-life." They are "pro-birth." They could care less what happens afterwards.
2
What words would a person use to talk about a culture of citizens who have passed animal protection laws in every state? What words would a person use to talk about a culture of citizens who protect natural habitats, open spaces and national parks? What words would a person use to talk about a culture of citizens who want to pass laws that do not protect a human life?
3
Animals and trees do not engage in law-making, nor do animals or trees vote.
Now, let's discuss exactly who it is that you mean when you use the 'words' 'human life'. I suspect that already born men and women with reproductive capacity are waaayyy low on your list.
And as for 'citizens', please recall that 51+% of the 'citizens' of this particular country are not included in the Constitution except for their one right: that they can vote. The ERA was never ratified due to conservatives , fundamentalists and religionists.
Let's open THAT dialogue.
Now, let's discuss exactly who it is that you mean when you use the 'words' 'human life'. I suspect that already born men and women with reproductive capacity are waaayyy low on your list.
And as for 'citizens', please recall that 51+% of the 'citizens' of this particular country are not included in the Constitution except for their one right: that they can vote. The ERA was never ratified due to conservatives , fundamentalists and religionists.
Let's open THAT dialogue.
5
It all depends on what wonderful things as human life. There is not a universal consensus on that.
1
You define a few undifferentiated cells as a human life. Others do not. Yet you are so certain of your rightness that you will impose your interpretation on others.
4
Why do women continue to vote for the party that wants to restrict their medical choices? All of this could end tomorrow, if women used the power they have.
15
Yes, but we'd also have to stop the baloney-talk on 'voting fraud' and fire all the government officials that we don't get to vote on who are suppressing the vote and insisting they have a 'right' to discriminate for 'religious' reasons.
Odd, but their 'religious reasons' look like common garden-variety bigotry to me.
Odd, but their 'religious reasons' look like common garden-variety bigotry to me.
1
Many comments refer to male politicians' motivations to control women's bodies. Sure, men want to consolidate their power but there's more to it than that. Many of these male and female politicians do not have any real commitment to either preventing abortion or controlling women's bodies, they are simply trying to arouse their base by cynically taking advantage of anti abortion sentiments. Keep the people agitated and they won't look too closely at what you're doing outside the abortion arena. It's an old trick, and it still works.
13
i have clearly been misled...
it is my understanding that the practice of medicine,
in most jurisdictions in these united states,
requires years of specialized education, training and licensing
before any services can be offered to our fellow citizens...
when was this function unilaterally transferred to legislators,
most of whom are not-likely licensed physicians?
16
It wasn't. They need to be thrown in jail.
2
This belief that one can terminate a child's life during pregnancy is dangerous. If we as a people justify abortion as legal, we may embark upon a dangerous road that history has proven to be deadly. Today we see store owners being sued for their beliefs, political organizations being targeted for their political beliefs. If people continue to justify some of these things, and then attack anyone who opposes them, a dangerous future will lie ahead of us.
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out, because I was not socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jew. And then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out, because I was not socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jew. And then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."
1
A dictionary will help you. If a child is pregnant, as happens, no one anywhere attempts to terminate the child's life.
11
Thanks, Albert. I missed that wording.
And, for Berglowe's information: The Nazi's outlawed abortion. They would force the undesirable's who were not fully protected by law to have an abortion, but good pure-blood women were not allowed to get rid of precious seed.
American women would do well to remember that they are not equal under the law: The Equal Rights Amendment was never ratified.
And, for Berglowe's information: The Nazi's outlawed abortion. They would force the undesirable's who were not fully protected by law to have an abortion, but good pure-blood women were not allowed to get rid of precious seed.
American women would do well to remember that they are not equal under the law: The Equal Rights Amendment was never ratified.
2
You are unaware of history. The present hysteria about abortion is fairly new.
2
There are an amazing number of people who believe that another person's reproductive life is their business. They refuse to accept the fact that women are quite capable of making the decision to have an abortion without suffering from severe depression afterwards or any other consequences. They take it upon themselves to tell us how to live our lives even though they should be paying more attention to their own lives. If it's so important to these people that every embryo and fetus is carried to term they ought to be waiting at the maternity ward when the infants are ready to be discharged. Let them care for a severely handicapped infant who will not be more than an infant. Let them provide homes for children whose parents cannot care for them and didn't want them because they didn't have the means to care for them.
Abortion is not, despite what these people say, a heartless decision. It's not a spur of the moment decision. The world is overpopulated as it is. Fewer babies, especially unwanted ones, would help. As someone who was unwanted and was told that I was unwanted, I am in favor of allowing women to have abortions until it's no longer safe for them. It's their lives and they know, better than anyone else, if they can care for, love, and raise a child.
Abortion is not, despite what these people say, a heartless decision. It's not a spur of the moment decision. The world is overpopulated as it is. Fewer babies, especially unwanted ones, would help. As someone who was unwanted and was told that I was unwanted, I am in favor of allowing women to have abortions until it's no longer safe for them. It's their lives and they know, better than anyone else, if they can care for, love, and raise a child.
18
Thanks, hen3ry. I always read your comments. Ditto from me on all of it.
Cruelly, Zika is coming and it will test all of this discussion and every person in this country. Did you read 'Socrates' comment in 'Reader's Picks'? I had no idea that Canada was so clear-sighted. You have a good day, hen3ry.
Cruelly, Zika is coming and it will test all of this discussion and every person in this country. Did you read 'Socrates' comment in 'Reader's Picks'? I had no idea that Canada was so clear-sighted. You have a good day, hen3ry.
6
I will try again since my original posting seemed not to have made the cut by Noon, Thursday, April 14th.
Ms. Greenhouse,
How is it that you can write so clearly, yet casually about abortion ?
As if a fetus were nothing but tissue. Were you not once a fetus,
was not your mother once a fetus, was not your grandmother a fetus ?
Yes, we were all once the size of a grape, but does that mean that humans
who were in the first stages of growth do not deserve the possibility of
a burial ?
As for the Post conception pill - why take the original "Pill" if you can just
take these abortificants ?
As for the end of the "Abortion Wars"...they will never end, just as
my great, great, great grandfather did all he could to end slavery at
Harper's Ferry, so we, who know the simple truth:
A fetus is just as human as anyone else, the only difference being how
young they are - as such they deserve and have a right to life.
will never give up the fight to defend the lives of those who are most
defenceless.
Ms. Greenhouse,
How is it that you can write so clearly, yet casually about abortion ?
As if a fetus were nothing but tissue. Were you not once a fetus,
was not your mother once a fetus, was not your grandmother a fetus ?
Yes, we were all once the size of a grape, but does that mean that humans
who were in the first stages of growth do not deserve the possibility of
a burial ?
As for the Post conception pill - why take the original "Pill" if you can just
take these abortificants ?
As for the end of the "Abortion Wars"...they will never end, just as
my great, great, great grandfather did all he could to end slavery at
Harper's Ferry, so we, who know the simple truth:
A fetus is just as human as anyone else, the only difference being how
young they are - as such they deserve and have a right to life.
will never give up the fight to defend the lives of those who are most
defenceless.
2
You are just repeating yourself over and over again in this comment section. You will not find converts here.
4
Among physicists there are lively discussions about which hypothesis is right and which is wrong.
And then there are those hypotheses which are so far off-base that they are not-even-wrong.
The idea that a fertilized egg is a person is not even wrong.
It is not worth discussion.
And then there are those hypotheses which are so far off-base that they are not-even-wrong.
The idea that a fertilized egg is a person is not even wrong.
It is not worth discussion.
3
Where is the NBA? PayPal? Amazon? Apple? Disney? Where are the companies who refuse to do business in states with draconian reproductive laws? If they object to LGBT discrimination, they should object to the insult and subjugation of women, too.
22
You have your religion, and I mine. That's why the Founding Fathers separated church and state. Laws should only be written and enforced when two things are included: freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
12
Politicians are not MD's. Women have rights. What is wrong with this picture? Get men and especially politicians out of woman's uteri.
13
So an Actaeon complex and a Diana complex walk into a bar…
2
ETERNAL CULTURE WAR Since the legalization of Roe v Wade in the 70s, there has been an unending civil war 2.0 that enslaves women going on undeclared. The very notion that US law at any level should impose religious strictures on anybody is clearly unconstitutional. But here we are, with an civil war already in its 5th decade with no end in sight. And no end of the establishment of state religions to support the end of a woman's freedom to control her own body. Where are all of loud voices shouting about the sanctity of life when it comes to ending the bloodbath of gun violence in this country. In the 15 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, some 7000 US military personnel have died. While in recent years over 32,000 in the US are killed by guns with another more than 60,000 injured. Where is the sanctity of life where guns are concerned? If you ask the wrong person you might just get shot to death. Especially if you're at the TX U of Austin in a class with students carrying concealed weapons. That should have a chilling effect on classroom debate. The number of US citizens who die in auto accidents is approaching the number who die from guns, while the numbers who die from abuse of tobacco, alcohol, coffee and refined sugar are far higher. We're doing a very poor job of protecting the sanctity of life except for the born. As Barney Frank has said, the GOP believes that life begins at conception and ends at birth. The statistics confirm his observation.
12
Do the Republicans and their evangelical base really think we can turn back the clock and go back to the 1900s? I wish the SCOTUS would pronounce itself once and for all on the question of abortion and birth control for women.
7
For those who would argue that "a large number of Americans believe abortion is immoral", a large number of Americans also believe that drinking and gambling are immoral. Those people are free to choose not to drink or gamble.
Likewise, as has been said before, if you are opposed to abortion, fine, then don't have one.
Truly mifepristone changes the landscape, and in a very good way!
Likewise, as has been said before, if you are opposed to abortion, fine, then don't have one.
Truly mifepristone changes the landscape, and in a very good way!
16
Great point. May I add? Americans who are mormans think coffee is immoral. Shall we shut down starbucks and peets?
2
The real purpose of these abortion laws is to get the GOP base out to vote. So the voters in the US can ignore the fact that the "Laffer Curve" is nonsense, that "trickle down" economics is nonsense, and that many of the rich inherited their fortunes, and just vote for the GOP because they are "against abortion".
8
Abortion should be a human right and legal until the 12th week and then be illegal. The viability option is not moral and allows the living fetus to be killed.
As long as the product of conception may be frozen and stored for later use, the product of conception is not a living human.
.
Too bad Linda Greenhouse couldn't geographically condemn just the warmer parts of the America that overthrew the United States.
.
Abortion is just another 'sin' our Father allows us to choose. Jesus implied there was coming a day when an atheist would be called 'blessed' for aborting. It is better today for atheist to abort gestation before the 12th week and then even kill fetal humans rather than raise another atheist?
As long as the product of conception may be frozen and stored for later use, the product of conception is not a living human.
.
Too bad Linda Greenhouse couldn't geographically condemn just the warmer parts of the America that overthrew the United States.
.
Abortion is just another 'sin' our Father allows us to choose. Jesus implied there was coming a day when an atheist would be called 'blessed' for aborting. It is better today for atheist to abort gestation before the 12th week and then even kill fetal humans rather than raise another atheist?
If you would impose a 12-week limit, surely you would then also agree that abortions should be easily and universally available during that period so that women could reasonable meet your deadline.
And surely you would allow exceptions to the 12-week limit for health problems of the mother and birth defects for the fetus.
And surely you would allow exceptions to the 12-week limit for health problems of the mother and birth defects for the fetus.
6
And rape and incest.
1
Jesus does not rule our country. "your" Father's point of view--- which truly you cannot know-- is completely irrelevant. We the people rule the country and we believe a woman has a right to determine her own fate..
2
Oklahoma was "Indian Territory" during the Civil War, and not formally part of the Confederacy, but very closely allied.
Kansas entered the Union finally as a free state, but there had been a great deal of bloody controversy over its status, whether slavery should be allowed or outlawed. Jesse and Frank James were members of Quantrill's Raiders, pro-slavery and pro-Confederacy terrorists, and carried out a massacre of abolitionists at Lawrence, Kansas. In the novel "Gilead," by Iowa-based Marilynne Robinson, the narrator tells a few details of the life of his remarkable, prophetic, monstrous grandfather, a preacher who was an abolitionist and a violent activist in that cause, and an ally of John Brown; and Kansas was the principal scene of his activism.
So if we should wish to add Oklahoma and Kansas to the four truly former Confederate states, Alabama, Arkansas, North Carolina and Texas -- which would be arguably if not 100% fair -- , we find a pattern that approaches Tim Egan's geographical observation regarding another socially divisive issue.
Kansas entered the Union finally as a free state, but there had been a great deal of bloody controversy over its status, whether slavery should be allowed or outlawed. Jesse and Frank James were members of Quantrill's Raiders, pro-slavery and pro-Confederacy terrorists, and carried out a massacre of abolitionists at Lawrence, Kansas. In the novel "Gilead," by Iowa-based Marilynne Robinson, the narrator tells a few details of the life of his remarkable, prophetic, monstrous grandfather, a preacher who was an abolitionist and a violent activist in that cause, and an ally of John Brown; and Kansas was the principal scene of his activism.
So if we should wish to add Oklahoma and Kansas to the four truly former Confederate states, Alabama, Arkansas, North Carolina and Texas -- which would be arguably if not 100% fair -- , we find a pattern that approaches Tim Egan's geographical observation regarding another socially divisive issue.
3
The sanctimonious cynicism of those who enact the restrictions described here is nauseating. Sure that they, and only they, know the absolute truth, they override the rights, welfare and even the personhood of those who disagree.
7
This whole patchwork, piecemeal mess could easily be remedied if the Supreme Court would simply define "undue burden" as an undue burden.
8
As ever, women's bodies are battlegrounds.
Abortion opponents say they want to "protect life," but what they really want is to control life - every woman's. If someone else has the final say over our pregnancies, then we aren't truly free human beings.
Our bodies, our choice.
Abortion opponents say they want to "protect life," but what they really want is to control life - every woman's. If someone else has the final say over our pregnancies, then we aren't truly free human beings.
Our bodies, our choice.
15
Much of the philosophical problem here is that some folks think they know the exact moment human life begins.
Setting aside the fact that there's no scientific way to know this, and that imposing one's religious view of the question violates the Constitution, here's the deal:
There is no single moment when "human life," begins. For that matter, we're not even sure what "human life," is.
We simply have made up a set of theories, and called them settled facts.
Setting aside the fact that there's no scientific way to know this, and that imposing one's religious view of the question violates the Constitution, here's the deal:
There is no single moment when "human life," begins. For that matter, we're not even sure what "human life," is.
We simply have made up a set of theories, and called them settled facts.
7
I don't know whether someone here has already brought this up - take care that women don't get pregnant when they don't want to. Last week an article in my daily in The Netherlands said that we are the country that has the first place in this important issue; the least undesired pregnancies in (young) women. Why is that? Because parents and teachers are open on (almost) everything about sex. I, retired biology teacher, could tell my students (from 12 - 18) what they needed to know, without being hindered by authorities and angry religious parents. That is where to start!
13
We pro lifers are not going to fade away into the sunset. We are here to stay. We have made great gains in our efforts to protect the unborn much to the dismay of the pro abortion folks. We are quiet in our efforts but no less determined to stand up for life. We have been effective in our goals but much more must be accomplished to stop countless babies from dying from abortion. We are patient and have tenacity. Some day the babies saved from abortion will thank us.
1
No one is "pro abortion."
With respect to stopping babies from dying from abortion, how about allowing contraception and factual sex education in schools? See the comment from someone in the Netherlands, ascribing their lowest-in-the-world rate of teen pregnancy to good sex education.
With respect to stopping babies from dying from abortion, how about allowing contraception and factual sex education in schools? See the comment from someone in the Netherlands, ascribing their lowest-in-the-world rate of teen pregnancy to good sex education.
12
I believe you would be correctly identified as believing life begins at conception and ends at birth. Why don't you stop using the label 'pro-life' when you are really against women, who bear all the risks, controlling their lives. Essentially you are against equality for women.
9
Albert,
I am a woman pro lifer and there are many more like me. I am not a feminist in any way, shape or form; but do believe in human rights. Babies have human rights.
I am a woman pro lifer and there are many more like me. I am not a feminist in any way, shape or form; but do believe in human rights. Babies have human rights.
What I want to know is how the conservative justices on the SC justify assuming that state legislatures are trying to protect women and their doctors from themselves. To believe recent rulings in favor of restrictions in states like Indiana and Texas, a judge would have to assume that legislatures are pure in their intent to protect rather than control women. I don't recall the court ever giving so many men (and even a few women) permission to lie about their intent.
We are asked to bury our heads in the sand while farcical funerals are held every time a woman loses a pregnancy for any reason. We are asked to assume that the size of janitors closets in Texas is fundamental to the safety of women.
It's a joke in very poor taste.
We are asked to bury our heads in the sand while farcical funerals are held every time a woman loses a pregnancy for any reason. We are asked to assume that the size of janitors closets in Texas is fundamental to the safety of women.
It's a joke in very poor taste.
7
For many, the real purpose of forbidding abortion is to control female sexual behavior. This is why forbidding abortion goes with discouraging sex education and the use of contraceptives. Forcing women to have children they are financially or psychologically unequipped to properly care for punishes them for their misbehavior (or carelessness in allowing themselves to be in a situation where sex is imposed on them). Have the fun, pay the price. What happens to the kids is often unfortunate, but in the war against immorality such collateral damage is just one of those things that happens, as in any war. God and morality want us to stamp out promiscuity no matter what the cost or side effects.
13
It has always been hard for me to understand how these "gifts from God" become punishment as soon as they're born
2
People in favor of letting women and doctors make their own health decisions have forgotten the dishonest baby parts video go because it was proven to be faked. In these regions, I'd best that is not so.
Planned Parenthood's services are about health-care: helping poor mothers and fathers care for their families. Only 3% is abortion related.
People teaching their children to hate abortion don't know or accept that this has been exposed. There is no respect for the truth. The false "truth" given to children and other younger community members ignores this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/28/us/abortion-planned-parenthood-videos....
I tried to engage with sympathy - which was likely useless, given the result - to a person who said they supported mothers and babies after birth (praiseworthy, if possibly not enough). It is disturbing that children are being recruited to this simplification, which ignores the bigger picture. It's easy for a child or a young adult to be taught not to look outside their circle for other views.
It's hard to explain to a young person: it's complicated. Much easier to say abortion is murder, awful, and punish the victim instead.
Children need mothers. At best, children need loving families able to support them. In our increasingly polarized society with extreme wealth disparity, the expense of bringing up a child means birth control is very very important. Even if one mother and child are helped, "it takes a village to raise a child."
Planned Parenthood's services are about health-care: helping poor mothers and fathers care for their families. Only 3% is abortion related.
People teaching their children to hate abortion don't know or accept that this has been exposed. There is no respect for the truth. The false "truth" given to children and other younger community members ignores this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/28/us/abortion-planned-parenthood-videos....
I tried to engage with sympathy - which was likely useless, given the result - to a person who said they supported mothers and babies after birth (praiseworthy, if possibly not enough). It is disturbing that children are being recruited to this simplification, which ignores the bigger picture. It's easy for a child or a young adult to be taught not to look outside their circle for other views.
It's hard to explain to a young person: it's complicated. Much easier to say abortion is murder, awful, and punish the victim instead.
Children need mothers. At best, children need loving families able to support them. In our increasingly polarized society with extreme wealth disparity, the expense of bringing up a child means birth control is very very important. Even if one mother and child are helped, "it takes a village to raise a child."
12
Sorry about the lack of proofing there, a bad habit. But I wouldn't come back if it weren't for this bit of fun (warning, vulgar Brit humor, Monty Python):
"Every Sperm is Sacred"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
"Every Sperm is Sacred"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
4
For most of history, women were treated like slaves. They married men who were allowed to use and abuse them. A woman was seen as the "property" of her husband and didn't (property) rights of her own. The battle for suffrage was a long and hard fought battle. Unfortunately, the rules of our highly paternalistic culture seem to be reasserting themselves.
Our only hope is for Hillary to become president and to start to shift the tide a bit, again.
Our only hope is for Hillary to become president and to start to shift the tide a bit, again.
16
How can this author who supposedly writes impartially about the Supreme Court write a pro-abortion article like this one? Doesn't she lose her credibility in her articles on the Supreme Court?
1
Nobody is "pro-abortion". We all wish that everything about every pregnancy were hunky-dory perfect. Then we would never have to figure out how to minimize the harm in a bad situation.
3
No, not at all.
Abortion is a human right. Nobody should be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term against her will.
The Supreme Court has already ruled on this. They won't, I assure you, reverse that ruling. Your position is entirely out of the mainstream.
Abortion is a human right. Nobody should be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term against her will.
The Supreme Court has already ruled on this. They won't, I assure you, reverse that ruling. Your position is entirely out of the mainstream.
4
As a lawyer, I think that Linda greenhouse provides excellent coverage of the Supreme Court. Exactly what in this article do you find inaccurate or unfair?
3
Religious fundamentalists of every stripe -- Jew, Catholic, Muslim, Christian -- are utterly fixated on what is going on between other people's legs, mostly women's, as though their sexual development was arrested somewhere around 4 years of age and they are unable or unwilling to admit that we humans are animals, plain and simple, and not would-be angels. If you are really so morally offended by abortion, then I must assume you contribute time and money to organizations supporting the needs of single mothers and their kids, except that I have long suspected -- because I have heard it expressed in no uncertain terms -- that some of this moral outrage is based on the belief that pregnancy, childbirth and the demands of parenting are not seen as blessings but punishment for "fooling around."
20
Your comment column is full-up with great observations by so many bright and well-informed people. Still, three points are worth making.
First, no child born deserves to be unwanted. The amount of child abuse has dropped when women are able to exercise choice in relation to childbearing.
Second, don't believe the old canard that abortion is just a lazy form of birth control. Statistics show that, when given the opportunity, women choose long-term birth control, such as an IUD or implanted medication. Of course, those who can't afford such birth control (or the children the state legislatures wish to force them to have) are then faced with the barrier created by a de-funding of Planned Parenthood offices ... and being given a list of "alternate resources" such as podiatrists, school nurses, and homeless shelters is so cruel that it is not enough laughable.
Third, and this one is worthy of a laugh, Ronald Reagan became a GOP hero because his welfare rolls and expenses dropped when he was Governor of California. They dropped because abortion became legal and the rolls did not have the increase projected, but an actual decrease. You would think the GOP would just love abortion, because they so love small government and want to save money. As we say, HA!
First, no child born deserves to be unwanted. The amount of child abuse has dropped when women are able to exercise choice in relation to childbearing.
Second, don't believe the old canard that abortion is just a lazy form of birth control. Statistics show that, when given the opportunity, women choose long-term birth control, such as an IUD or implanted medication. Of course, those who can't afford such birth control (or the children the state legislatures wish to force them to have) are then faced with the barrier created by a de-funding of Planned Parenthood offices ... and being given a list of "alternate resources" such as podiatrists, school nurses, and homeless shelters is so cruel that it is not enough laughable.
Third, and this one is worthy of a laugh, Ronald Reagan became a GOP hero because his welfare rolls and expenses dropped when he was Governor of California. They dropped because abortion became legal and the rolls did not have the increase projected, but an actual decrease. You would think the GOP would just love abortion, because they so love small government and want to save money. As we say, HA!
20
What isn't explained is why the abortion laws are passed? Do women and other supporters of choice not bother to vote? Or is there less support for choice than is believed?
1
regional. In our "information" age, it is possible to ignore Democratic, liberal, or progressive views entirely.
Those of us working with climate change have found getting news out particularly intractable. Even when people have extraordinary storm seasons, they don't look at cause and effect.
Abortion is even more loaded, and it's easy to indoctrinate the younger generation about those "precious" early babies. Real people are more complex, but the unborn are "pure".
Those of us working with climate change have found getting news out particularly intractable. Even when people have extraordinary storm seasons, they don't look at cause and effect.
Abortion is even more loaded, and it's easy to indoctrinate the younger generation about those "precious" early babies. Real people are more complex, but the unborn are "pure".
4
Neither. The Republicans passing these laws are interested in one thing. Throwing bones to single-issue voters so they'll keep supporting them come election time. It's got nothing to do with women's health and even very little to do with "protecting the unborn." It's about currying favor with a powerful voting bloc in order to stay in power. Same with "gun rights" and just about every other issue Republicans have embraced in recent years. They're not interested in or capable of addressing real issues like income inequality, infrastructure, affordable health care, tax reform, or climate change. So they spend their time passing laws to prevent certain people from using the bathroom of their choice and requiring doctors to prescribe excessive doses of drugs. Wonderful, isn't it?
6
I think they blame climate change on God's wrath about legal abortion, Susan.
1
I have been following all this abortion controversy since law school and Roe v. Wade. Yet I still don't fully understand "why" anti-abortion people pursue their beliefs on this with such fervor.
There does not seem to be much written about "why" (opinions or polls) in the media. What I come-up with on my own is this: 1). concern about the fetus, 2). moralizing about "irresponsible" sex, and 3). keeping women under the "control' of men.
A combination of all (3)? But...what is the predominant reason.? By what percentage?
There does not seem to be much written about "why" (opinions or polls) in the media. What I come-up with on my own is this: 1). concern about the fetus, 2). moralizing about "irresponsible" sex, and 3). keeping women under the "control' of men.
A combination of all (3)? But...what is the predominant reason.? By what percentage?
1
Have a look at KMW. They really believe it's murder. The fetus, you see, is "pure". Mothers, not so much. But it's complex, even the most liberal in views and those seeking abortions will acknowledge it's not life enhancing to have to do this because of circumstances.
5
Actually getting born is the "original sin". That's why life is supposed to be penitential.
2
It's fascinating that in all these laws restricting and denying access to abortion, there's never any mention of the men who were present at the moment of conception. After all, it's not as if women are conceiving all by themselves.
If, as Donald Trump said (later retracted as impolitic) women having abortions are criminals, then it follows that their co-conceivers are criminals also.
We don't have enough prisons.
If, as Donald Trump said (later retracted as impolitic) women having abortions are criminals, then it follows that their co-conceivers are criminals also.
We don't have enough prisons.
17
It's a well-known psychological process known as "projection". When we feel guilty about something, we "project" our guilt onto someone else to make ourselves feel better.
1
cremaing and/or burying a miscarried fetus must have an extraordinary price. why is no one even bringing that up?? and miscarriages happen all the time. this is very disturbing.
8
So, my reading of this is that the nitwit right-to-life Republicans in Arizona are requiring a larger dose of this drug, when a smaller dose will do. Kinda makes their mantra that they only care about women's health a sham. Over 50% of states are controlled by these luddites, so get ready in your state for the same thing. In my state of New Mexico, when the fewest Democrats voted in 60 years, we got the first Republican controlled House in 60 years! What was one of their first steps - you guessed it, anti-abortion bills. Our Senate is still controlled by rational Democrats, so it was stopped. In New Mexico, the blame is at the feet of Democrats. All those Sanders voters who say they won't vote if he's not nominated, better re-think it, or we (Democrats) will be responsible for outlawing Choice again.
18
The cremation idea has merit, but why stop at fetuses. Eggs and sperm are human life in the making… just a bit less formed. But when you think if it, a sperm has even more possibilities. Matched with the right DNA, a discarded sperm could become the next Einstein. Who would flush Einstein down the toilet? At the very least half-baby Einstein needs a proper cremation.
16
It just galls me that bigoted, bible spouting politicians like Pence. Abbott, Perry, and their ilk are so willing to "protect life," wrapping themselves in the mantle of religion, proclaiming at the top of their lungs the right to life when, after these fertilized eggs become human beings, the same governors happily sign a warrant to snuff the life of a capital criminal.
"Ah," they say. "An eye for an eye." One wonders: Do these guys ever read the New Testament?
For all its many faults, at least the Catholic Church is entirely consistent in its avocation for life. No abortion (with which I disagree) and no death penalty (with which I agree).
At what point does a woman get to run her own body, free of the intrusion of hypocrites and moralists?
"Ah," they say. "An eye for an eye." One wonders: Do these guys ever read the New Testament?
For all its many faults, at least the Catholic Church is entirely consistent in its avocation for life. No abortion (with which I disagree) and no death penalty (with which I agree).
At what point does a woman get to run her own body, free of the intrusion of hypocrites and moralists?
14
With total irony in Arizona the Republican's passed a bill that further restricts early and non-invasive abortion forcing women to either seek out more expensive abortion or forcing her to carry a child that she may not be able to afford to take care of later. On the other hand our state Senate President refuses to bring a bill (passed by the House) to a floor vote that would expand children's healthcare in the state (paid for by the Feds). So much for concern over the health and welfare of women and children in the state of Arizona!
21
This cannot be repeated often enough. OUR United States Constitution guarantees SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. That means government cannot interfere in the right of a person to worship as they please AND religious organizations CANNOT force their beliefs on another through laws. These laws are treasonous. Women have an inalienable right - given to them by their creator- to choose what they do with their own bodies. Religious fanatics are wasting BILLIONS of OUR taxpayer money in OUR courts with these reprehensible laws. WE must stop them.
22
What about the babies bodies in the wombs? Who is looking after their rights. Don't they count. We must stand up and fight for them. I certainly will.
I have not checked, but I am confident that there is a law in every state about the unlicensed practice of medicine. The legislatures are practicing medicine in most of these statutes. The legislators voting for these laws should be charged with violating those laws as should the governors who sign the bills.
And it is about time that we quit using 'abortion-rights' to describe those who favor equal rights for women. The right to an abortion is only a sub-part of the equal rights struggle for women. To continue to use 'abortion-rights' is to allow the opponents to frame the issue in a manner which plays into the religious hands of the reactionaries -- those who are already masquerading as conservatives and as Christians.
And it is about time that we quit using 'abortion-rights' to describe those who favor equal rights for women. The right to an abortion is only a sub-part of the equal rights struggle for women. To continue to use 'abortion-rights' is to allow the opponents to frame the issue in a manner which plays into the religious hands of the reactionaries -- those who are already masquerading as conservatives and as Christians.
16
Roe v. Wade is settled law. So is Citizens United. Let's move on.
The law is a flowing stream, and nothing is ever necessarily settled permanently. It is people who decide what the law is, and it is people who can change it.
Plessy versus Ferguson was once the law of the land. The settled law.
We must continue to use our brains and to fight for what we think is right. "Moving on" is the last thing thinking people should do.
That having been said, I have been grateful to live under the protection of Roe v. Wade for all of my reproductive years. But that protection must never be taken for granted.
Plessy versus Ferguson was once the law of the land. The settled law.
We must continue to use our brains and to fight for what we think is right. "Moving on" is the last thing thinking people should do.
That having been said, I have been grateful to live under the protection of Roe v. Wade for all of my reproductive years. But that protection must never be taken for granted.
10
Here the US there are more jursidictions where to seek unequal rulings of law than in any other country.
1
I agree with Ms. Greenhouse. This new FDA development has the potential to end the shouting matches, and the crowd intimidation. What are the "sidewalk counselors" going to do, argue with the UPS guy? This is a day they've long feared, depriving the movement of one of its most powerful theatrical weapons.
13
What happens if all abortions become illegal? Would that prevent them? Banning access to safe abortions is a poor strategy that will never achieve its objective. It will only cause more misery....
11
Thank you. Gov. Kasich was recently asked about gay marriage and in his response said that the matter has been settled by the Supreme Court. And so he will not fight to overturn the decision. Yet nobody asked him why that same analysis does not apply to Roe v. Wade. Could someone please ask him to explain this. I have to think that his and his ilk's constant push against Roe v. Wade is pure misogyny.
21
I believe the NY Times Editors' style guide should discourage the use as in this article of the word "theory" which is a scientific term used properly to describe a science based process. In this article I believe it is a wrong use to describe "the theory that fetuses feel pain". This is NOT a scientific theory. It is a "belief" or a "claim" that is without scientific support. Allowing the term "theory" in this use confuses the reader / public about what it means to read something is a "theory".
18
See a related story today confirming that the Zika virus is responsible for birth defects. The story indicates a high probability of Zika occurring soon in the very Southern states that have the most restrictive anti-abortion laws. Ironic or tragic?
14
Corporations need to step up and voice their discomfort with these TRAP laws; after all, women make up more than half the populations and control the purse strings in a majority of families. Can't the Pro-Choice movement highlight corporations that operate in these states and suggest a boycott of these business. I say we start with Walmart in AK.
11
To skanik:
"A fetus is a living human being and, save for its age, is just like you and me."
No it isn't just like you and me. I am a grown adult woman; I am not a fetus and I do not need others to make my decisions for me. You should think about the implications of your statement. There is an element in anti-abortionists which pits the mother against the fetus, and somehow the fully human and adult woman counts for less. I am not an incubator for your religious morality.
"A fetus is a living human being and, save for its age, is just like you and me."
No it isn't just like you and me. I am a grown adult woman; I am not a fetus and I do not need others to make my decisions for me. You should think about the implications of your statement. There is an element in anti-abortionists which pits the mother against the fetus, and somehow the fully human and adult woman counts for less. I am not an incubator for your religious morality.
29
"skanik" has a birth certificate, went to school, walked his/her dog in the park, voted, argued against choice, served in the military (doubtful), has enjoyed consensual sex, likes potato chips, has his/her own children, has signed legal documents and drives a car.
None of the above has ever been done by a fetus.
... oh, yes, and add paying taxes to all of that...
None of the above has ever been done by a fetus.
... oh, yes, and add paying taxes to all of that...
14
It's surprising to me that the AMA and various other medical/health associations have not taken this issue up as expressed in Arizona, Indiana and Texas. Where in the law, or in any court in the land, would an unskilled, many times uneducated, low IQ, politician have ANY say over medical issues. If one tried to practice medicine they would be jailed. Why isn't the pro-choice movement trying to assert that without a medical degree and license they have no right to direct medical professionals in the course of their duty?. The AMA has a lot of power. Oh, silly me, it's run by white men. What could I have been thinking?
13
Thank you Linda for your dogged reporting on women's reproductive rights. While I applaud national boycotts against state laws which affect a small portion of our population (LGBT rights in NC), it's discouraging to see laws in every state adversely affecting more than 50% of our population being ignored by corporations & citizens.
56
June, laws affect all of us everyday. They are there for the benefit or protecting the rights of all of us in society, including the unborn. Boycotts are ineffective and the objective of corporations are to make a profit, not to advocate on behalf of a portion of the population. Reproductive laws are designed to benefit society and the people in it and therefore not adversely affecting anyone.
Isn't there ANYONE in these United States which values BOTH the pregnant woman and the fetus, which after all is a human being?
I am depressed that progressives duck this question and pretend that the only reason we have an issue is these stupid Republican males.
I have lost more respect for progressives over this issue than over any other. "Those awful Republicans" cannot be the answer to every single moral question.
I am depressed that progressives duck this question and pretend that the only reason we have an issue is these stupid Republican males.
I have lost more respect for progressives over this issue than over any other. "Those awful Republicans" cannot be the answer to every single moral question.
2
Rohit: "Isn't there ANYONE in these United States which values BOTH the pregnant woman and the fetus, which after all is a human being?" Did you read the piece? Our country has plenty of religious nuts who want to take over other people's lives. And, if the "life" of that fetus isn't valued by the pregnant woman, what will happen to the 9 month baby that results from the pregnancy? An unvalued child?
5
The problem with your position is that there is no widespread consensus on the question of when human life begins. To you, it begins at conception. To me, it begins at viability.
What makes you think you should be able to impose your morality on me when there is no consensus on this highly divisive issue?
Tend to your own garden, please.
What makes you think you should be able to impose your morality on me when there is no consensus on this highly divisive issue?
Tend to your own garden, please.
9
Until that fetus can survive outside of her womb, the mother is the one who gets to make the decisions. If you "value and respect" women, trust them to make their own choices.
You don't "protect" women by forcing your personal moral beliefs on them through legislation.
You don't "protect" women by forcing your personal moral beliefs on them through legislation.
5
My wish? A national referendum on abortion only open to women. We, the 51% of the population that can get pregnant, decide when/if there should be safe access to abortion.
I am beyond sick and tired of men having anything to do with this issue other than interfere or preach. My opinion? If you believe abortion is immoral, don't have one. If you CAN'T have an abortion because you're male, keep your mouth shut.
I am beyond sick and tired of men having anything to do with this issue other than interfere or preach. My opinion? If you believe abortion is immoral, don't have one. If you CAN'T have an abortion because you're male, keep your mouth shut.
21
Be careful what you wish for. There are more women against abortion especially today than ever before. Let the debate begin.
It's heartbreaking that pro-abortion and anti-abortion groups can't agree on one thing: safe, low-cost, equitable access to birth control. Increasing access to birth control is the best, sanest way to reduce the number of abortions. But it's abundantly clear that anti-abortion rhetoric about women's health and safety is just a cover for "my religious beliefs say no sex unless it's for babies." The same people who wish to stop a woman from ENDING a pregnancy are most often the same people who wish to stop a woman from PREVENTING pregnancy in the first place. Because: religion.
Could we have just a little, teeny, tiny bit of separation of church and state, please?
Could we have just a little, teeny, tiny bit of separation of church and state, please?
16
How can it be legal to sign a law not allowing, but REQUIRING, doctors to prescribe an overdose? So much for caring about women's health--what a joke.
Who has legal jurisdiction over Arizona, if they are legislating malpractice? The official website of the Arizona Medical Board says their mission is "to protect public safety through the judicious licensing, regulation and education of all allopathic physicians." (Allopaths are MDs.) Is the Arizona Medical Board speaking up? This is outrageous.
Who has legal jurisdiction over Arizona, if they are legislating malpractice? The official website of the Arizona Medical Board says their mission is "to protect public safety through the judicious licensing, regulation and education of all allopathic physicians." (Allopaths are MDs.) Is the Arizona Medical Board speaking up? This is outrageous.
16
A governor can sign any bill into law. Then the issue becomes whether or not the law, if challenged, will be upheld by the judiciary.
3
The government passes all kinds of restrictions regarding you and your body. You can't have sex in front of Bloomingdales. If you're going to paint your boobs, you have to stand in the corner. You can't marry your brother. If you have AIDS there are rules about having sexs. And if you delay 5 months, you can't have an abortion.
All this talk about it's my body doesn't add up to a hill of beans without Roe v. Wade. The right to an abortion exists because of one Court decision. Norma McCorvey, a 21-year poor, abused heavy drinker who was pregnant with her 3rd child is the hero of Roe v. Wade, and because the case took 3 years, she had the baby and gave it up for adoption. I don't think Norma went around saying she had some inherent right. The gods smiled on her, just this once. Abortion is a fragile right. I wouldn't take iit for granted.
All this talk about it's my body doesn't add up to a hill of beans without Roe v. Wade. The right to an abortion exists because of one Court decision. Norma McCorvey, a 21-year poor, abused heavy drinker who was pregnant with her 3rd child is the hero of Roe v. Wade, and because the case took 3 years, she had the baby and gave it up for adoption. I don't think Norma went around saying she had some inherent right. The gods smiled on her, just this once. Abortion is a fragile right. I wouldn't take iit for granted.
3
Michjas:
... only THIS government. Please read the first "Reader's Pick" by "Socrates" which explains how the Canadian government handles all this. Moreover, neither I nor Norma are breeders for the adoption market. I can't imagine what gods you are talking about, that "smiled on her". She was denied an abortion, forced to carry to term, and then forced to leave the child with others. You are talking a very sadistic god. And, I DO believe she had an "inherent right" to claim any reproductive right she wished. Every woman always has and always will. End of story.
... only THIS government. Please read the first "Reader's Pick" by "Socrates" which explains how the Canadian government handles all this. Moreover, neither I nor Norma are breeders for the adoption market. I can't imagine what gods you are talking about, that "smiled on her". She was denied an abortion, forced to carry to term, and then forced to leave the child with others. You are talking a very sadistic god. And, I DO believe she had an "inherent right" to claim any reproductive right she wished. Every woman always has and always will. End of story.
7
I LOVE this: "Women have been mocking the law by calling Governor Pence’s office to let him know that their menstrual periods have arrived on time." That's the ticket ladies and gentlemen. Call, write, e-mail, tweet and post on social media to these archaic men and women who think they have a right to control what a woman does with her own body. Below is contact information for every governor, every senator and the catholic conference of bishops contact form. Please use them to voice your OUTRAGE over these medieval thinkers laws. NOW is the time to pass the Equal Rights Amendment to OUR United States Constitution that says "No law shall be passed in America that discriminates based on gender." NO LAW!
http://people.smu.edu/rhalperi/governors.html
http://www.democratichub.com/senate-list?t=ds
http://www.usccb.org/about/contact-us.cfm
http://people.smu.edu/rhalperi/governors.html
http://www.democratichub.com/senate-list?t=ds
http://www.usccb.org/about/contact-us.cfm
14
I think law-abiding Indiana women should go one step further, with an initiative that could be called "Pads for Pence."
Because approximately 75% of conceptions self-abort and are mistaken for an ordinary period, it is essential that Gov. Pence take the lead in sorting through the products of menstruation to ensure that early fetuses and zygotes of Indiana women receive proper cremation or burial as they move from this life into the next.
So, ladies, let's unite to bring the spirit of this law to life by helping Gov. Pence achieve his goal. All it will cost you is a Ziploc bag, a manila mailer, and a bit of postage.
Because approximately 75% of conceptions self-abort and are mistaken for an ordinary period, it is essential that Gov. Pence take the lead in sorting through the products of menstruation to ensure that early fetuses and zygotes of Indiana women receive proper cremation or burial as they move from this life into the next.
So, ladies, let's unite to bring the spirit of this law to life by helping Gov. Pence achieve his goal. All it will cost you is a Ziploc bag, a manila mailer, and a bit of postage.
17
It is long past time for the outing of the families of anti-choice politicians. Just as anti-LGBT politicians were dragged kicking and screaming out of the closet we need to make known the fact that there are anti-choice politicians who take their public positions secure in the knowledge that their wives and daughters can use birth control and get an abortion if needs be. These monstrous hypocrites need to be revealed for what they are.
12
You are correct. The Hyde Amendment only applies to poor women.
You'll never see the anti-choice folk howling on 5th Avenue outside of a private doctor's office that does abortions.
And, for a good laugh, Goggle: Henry Hyde, the philanderer and criminal who was out to get poor women and admitted it. Revolting person.
You'll never see the anti-choice folk howling on 5th Avenue outside of a private doctor's office that does abortions.
And, for a good laugh, Goggle: Henry Hyde, the philanderer and criminal who was out to get poor women and admitted it. Revolting person.
8
This article dovetails perfectly with Roger Cohen's article in today's paper titled the Death of Liberalism, because certain factions cannot accept different views and must have their view and only their view upheld. Expect more from the states though, they have the dark money, and plenty of it, from the hard right wing science deniers.
4
I just read the best solution is mandatory reversible vasectomies starting at 18. They can only be reversed with the woman's permission...
14
Or temporary sterilization of all boys at age 10 until they marry. Problem solved.
11
Startling analysis, but it leaves out one important aspect. We know that many local school districts have adopted rules that prohibit teaching any form of birth control other than abstention. Do we know how many? Have any states adopted similar rules? The effect of these rules is that they often force young women to give birth to babies they're unqualified to care for.
5
Those of us in the pro-life movement are not kooks, weirdos nor crazy but are genuinely concerned for the life and well being of the innocent life in the mother's womb. We stand up for those who have no voice.
The excuses for abortion are numerous (a woman's right to choose, not enough money, career comes first, etc. This is so selfish and self centered. The arguments directed toward those of us who are pro life are also unfair and silly. We do care for the women and their babies. We do not let me go,it alone. We support them and love them. We are not zealots and I find this insulting.
We are highly educated and the people I have met while volunteering are some of the nicest you will find. We have already aborted over 50 million babies; and if this does no repulse you, nothing will. We want to save lives not end them.
The excuses for abortion are numerous (a woman's right to choose, not enough money, career comes first, etc. This is so selfish and self centered. The arguments directed toward those of us who are pro life are also unfair and silly. We do care for the women and their babies. We do not let me go,it alone. We support them and love them. We are not zealots and I find this insulting.
We are highly educated and the people I have met while volunteering are some of the nicest you will find. We have already aborted over 50 million babies; and if this does no repulse you, nothing will. We want to save lives not end them.
1
One big problem with your stance is that criminalizing abortion does not reduce abortion rates.
If you achieve your goal of criminalizing abortion, you will not be "saving the lives of babies." You will merely be driving abortion underground, thereby driving up rates of mortality and morbidity. Dozens of studies over many years and across cultures demonstrate this. It's not conjecture, it's empiric fact.
So at least be clear about what you will and will not accomplish if you succeed in abolishing the right to safe, legal abortion.
If you achieve your goal of criminalizing abortion, you will not be "saving the lives of babies." You will merely be driving abortion underground, thereby driving up rates of mortality and morbidity. Dozens of studies over many years and across cultures demonstrate this. It's not conjecture, it's empiric fact.
So at least be clear about what you will and will not accomplish if you succeed in abolishing the right to safe, legal abortion.
13
You are insulting because of your materialistic and paternalistic attitudes towards women as if they asked for and want your help. They don't. Leave them alone and concentrate on your own life. It does not repulse me one bit. Because I know those women made decisions for themselves and their lives, of which I know nothing about. If you want to save lives, fight for comprehensive sex education, free and widely available contraception, aid for women and children who live in poor communities, comprehensive healthcare for women and children. You just fighting to keep a woman pregnant is not saving lives, and most likely ruining some in the process. There are much better things you could do with your time to Actually lower the abortion rate.
11
You are religious zealots who think that women can't make their own reproductive decisions and commit serial intellectual dishonesty with prohibitions that are ostensibly about safety and informed consent but are really back-door attempts to make that decision for those women.
There is also nothing selfish and self-centered about deciding when one wants to have a family. There is much that is self-centered about presumably that you get to make that decision for any other woman.
There is also nothing selfish and self-centered about deciding when one wants to have a family. There is much that is self-centered about presumably that you get to make that decision for any other woman.
10
Lillibet's mom here again. In 1975 I miscarried at (guessing) about 2 months, or 8 weeks pregnant. I remember the cramps coming on in the middle of the night, and not being quite sure what was happening. It became all too apparent when I finally passed two bloody gelatinous clots the size of my fists. I was staying in my hosts' garage at the time (a common thing in southern CA) and had to cross the yard to get to the bathroom. I made it once, but not the second time. I tried desperately to dig through the mess, both in the toilet and in the yard, trying to locate a fetus, but without success. I'm writing this because people like Mike Pence might as well be demanding Somalians plant tea as require women to bury fetal remains of a miscarriage--he knows as much about one as the other, and so do many of the anti-abortion hacks supporting his kind of legislative horror shows. This is not a joke. To quote Randy Newman, "Lord, if you won't take care of us, won't you please just let us be."
14
One of the reasons is that there is no "South" today. We are made up of transplanted Northerners. Most Floridians have never met a native Floridian over the age of 15.
Our Governor, Rick Scott, who just signed into law one of the most restrictive abortion bills in the country is a transplanted carpetbagger from Illinois, who was voted into office by the 1500 people who move here from up North every day - every day - a "leader" who will leave again for what he considers to be greener pastures as soon as someone offers him a place in DC and he is using Florida to establish his conservative bona fides while the rest of the nation tsk tsks about Florida where Jeb! was not born - nor Scalia.
I weep.
Our Governor, Rick Scott, who just signed into law one of the most restrictive abortion bills in the country is a transplanted carpetbagger from Illinois, who was voted into office by the 1500 people who move here from up North every day - every day - a "leader" who will leave again for what he considers to be greener pastures as soon as someone offers him a place in DC and he is using Florida to establish his conservative bona fides while the rest of the nation tsk tsks about Florida where Jeb! was not born - nor Scalia.
I weep.
5
"There’s the bill that Indiana’s governor, Mike Pence, signed last month requiring cremation or burial for aborted or miscarried fetuses. (At the gestational age when most abortions occur, the fetus is about the size of a grape.)"
They should also pass a law requiring men to cremate or bury the tissues that they use while masturbating while singing the "Every Sperm is Sacred" song from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life."
They should also pass a law requiring men to cremate or bury the tissues that they use while masturbating while singing the "Every Sperm is Sacred" song from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life."
19
I'm pro-choice, but you missed the (to pro-lifers) important difference between a sperm and a fertilized egg. The anti-abortion faction believes an individual human life, i.e,, a baby, begins at conception - that is, when sperm meets egg. Sperm, like egg, in and of itself is not yet an individual life.
Contraception is not the same as abortion, though admittedly some pro-lifers oppose both, and some also oppose masturbation (good luck enforcing a law against that).
Muddy thinking and bad arguments, resort to snark - these undermine our case. Pro-choicers need to make the strongest, most logically defensible arguments possible. So many of us keep failing to do so, and are so firm in our convictions that we don't bother to examine our arguments for flaws and omissions. (Why bother, when we already know we're right?) In this we're like the pro-lifers, unfortunately.
Contraception is not the same as abortion, though admittedly some pro-lifers oppose both, and some also oppose masturbation (good luck enforcing a law against that).
Muddy thinking and bad arguments, resort to snark - these undermine our case. Pro-choicers need to make the strongest, most logically defensible arguments possible. So many of us keep failing to do so, and are so firm in our convictions that we don't bother to examine our arguments for flaws and omissions. (Why bother, when we already know we're right?) In this we're like the pro-lifers, unfortunately.
4
"Pro-choicers need to make the strongest, most logically defensible arguments possible. So many of us keep failing to do so, and are so firm in our convictions that we don't bother to examine our arguments for flaws and omissions."
Yeah because that's worked so well for the last 43 years. The mistake you're making is that any rational argument will change the minds of religious zealots who believe that God is on their side. Thanks for the advice, but I'll stick with sarcastic ridicule.
Yeah because that's worked so well for the last 43 years. The mistake you're making is that any rational argument will change the minds of religious zealots who believe that God is on their side. Thanks for the advice, but I'll stick with sarcastic ridicule.
2
The laws that make abortion difficult to nigh unto impossible to get are anti-Constitutional because at their heart the various states are using a particular religious interpretation of "life" to restrict the right of conscience and religious liberty to women who don't agree with that particular view. When the physical requirements for a medical clinic make it impossible to conduct the medical practice that is also a constraint of a legal profession as well. That this elimination of clinics serving the medical needs of women will kill some of them also doesn't concern those who only have hearts and minds for misogyny and fetuses. Everything about these laws is revolting and anti-Constitutional in order to encourage the practice of medicine by religious precept.
9
Medication abortion will hopefully be a game changer. The obsession to control and mandate the the health and future of women's lives has to end. Could you imagine the outrage if men's reproductive organs were restricted by legislation? Yet our tv's are filled with ads for Viagra.
12
I will never understand these hateful people and their fixation with other women's personal issues. If they are religious and truly believe in God, then let God make the final judgement for what these women are doing to their own bodies. But I think for the most part, these are just controlling men who relish having the power to tell these women what to do (or should I just refer to them as Republican men?).
17
Non-medically trained males should not be allowed to make decisions "to protect women's health" since they have nothing at stake and don't know what the hell they are talking about.
This is all about male control, folks. In the end it has nothing to do with abortion and a lot to do with controlling women's sex lives.
Just listen to Ted Cruz: it's easy for men to buy condoms without a prescription therefore there is no need for women to have contraceptives.
At least that's what the guys at the Frat House believe.
This is all about male control, folks. In the end it has nothing to do with abortion and a lot to do with controlling women's sex lives.
Just listen to Ted Cruz: it's easy for men to buy condoms without a prescription therefore there is no need for women to have contraceptives.
At least that's what the guys at the Frat House believe.
107
Yes, there was that old phrase once used about women expressing male control: "keep 'em barefoot and pregnant" (and theoretically out of the way).
1
Bravo, Tom!
We elect men and women to represent us and to seek out the best information with which to make decisions regarding making laws for society. Congress didn't need to be doctors to enact healthcare legislation and they didn't need to be bankers to enact broad financial legislation and they don't need to be doctors to protect the unborn.
And, of course, it has nothing to do with male control. He has to do with love for the living and defending those who cannot defend themselves.
And, of course, it has nothing to do with male control. He has to do with love for the living and defending those who cannot defend themselves.
i wonder if women would be willing to collect their fluids in menstrual cups and forward them on to mike pence so he could root through the mess, find the eggs, and properly inter them. really, if you carry their (il)logic through it all becomes so much nonsense. and when are these politicians going to deal with all the wasted sperm?
20
Why should men care about women's right to choose when women like Linda Greenhouse think men don't also deserve a right to choose?
Linda doesn't even care that men have no access (none, in any State) to safe, effective, reversible birth control.
And spare me talk about condoms. They fail 18% of the time in ordinary use.
Linda doesn't even care that men have no access (none, in any State) to safe, effective, reversible birth control.
And spare me talk about condoms. They fail 18% of the time in ordinary use.
1
I did my wife (and me) a favor, and after our children got a vasectomy. Easy as pie. I took responsibility and did the right thing, and mos men can too.
8
But they have viagra
4
How do you know that Linda doesn't care about that?
By the way, condom effectiveness increases dramatically with proper application technique combined with spermicide use.
In addition, while vasectomy is not invariably reversible, in recent years reversibility rates hover around 75%. In cases where reversal fails, sperm harvesting through needle aspiration directly into the testicle can usually be done.
By the way, condom effectiveness increases dramatically with proper application technique combined with spermicide use.
In addition, while vasectomy is not invariably reversible, in recent years reversibility rates hover around 75%. In cases where reversal fails, sperm harvesting through needle aspiration directly into the testicle can usually be done.
3
I wish all those who are so concerned with the sanctity of life, regardless of when it began, would give due thought to the election of their representatives who vote to increase the military budget or vote to go to war against countries like Iraq.
Just what is the percentage of abortions versus military casualties?
Just what is the percentage of abortions versus military casualties?
10
The Arizona legislature is practicing medicine without a license. Its actions additionally constitute malpractice. While it may successfully claim immunity for those criminal acts, any such "privilege" does not extend to contempt from citizenry everywhere.
8
A fertilized egg, an embryo or a fetus is what it is – it is not what it Will Be. The law cannot treat anyone or anything as it Will Be since that is not in evidence today. This idea of ‘is vs. will be’ is so fundamental to arguments for and against, it is impossible to settle - it is a matter of belief. We need then to fall back on the law and, the law can only rule on what is not what will be. When states seek to pacify the Will Be, we see the torturous laws that result. The law was never meant to be bent that way.
14
I'll accept state control over bodily autonomy for women who have sex and participate in the creation an embryo under the following conditions: If men have sex and participate in the creation of an embryo, they must be compelled by the state to donate their organs "to sustain another life," just as GOP lawmakers compel women who engage in the exact same behavior to donate their organs to the developing embryo/fetus. Men in this category must undergo blood testing for organ matching purposes, and must donate bone marrow or a kidney if found to be a match for a living, fully formed human being. It won't kill them (most likely), but will hinder their activities for awhile - like pregnancy and childbirth. They will be saving an actual person's life, rather than a clump of cells, and it'll be less of a burden than pregnant women carry, because they'll have no responsibility for the life they were compelled to donate their bodies to (unlike having a baby and raising a child). If the GOP wants the state to force people who are sexually active to use their organs to "sustain life" then, by God, let's sustain some life. I'm sure the men leading the GOP and the anti-abortion (and anti-birth control, and anti sex-ed) movement will be first in line to comply with these new laws.
20
Name one medical procedure that men go through that elected officials have stepped in and set clinic standards for, told doctors what they must say to the patient, require the length of time that needs to occur between a consultation and procedure or set deadlines as to when access to that procedure would be cut off? Name one..... Is no one concerned about the health of men? Because concern for the health of women is the reason we are given as to why these laws are needed.
93
Perhaps in every State that passes these laws prohibiting women from exercising their right to a personal decision there should be another law that is triggered for males including a forced non-reversible vasectomy for the partner of any woman who is prohibited from an abortion and in the case of rape and/or incest, automatic castration.
2
The issue is not about life or death, it’s a matter of who is choosing the right to life. What is life? It’s the ability of self-replicating systems to reproduce. But we are destroying life on the planet at an accelerating pace – witness climate change, species extinction, wars and the subsequent destruction of the means of survival from loss of agricultural land, mutation of microbes and, of course, over-population throughout the world. So with our on-going ability to destroy life on earth, what is the argument for one species (homo erectus) denying reproductive choice for womankind? Even our ancestors, the gorillas, will mate with the discretion and discernment, allowing females to pick and choose their mate when they are in estrus, so that sex is not simply a matter of providing pleasure to the male. Scandinavian countries have also allowed women the right to choose, and the population has allowed their women to share positions of authority in democracy. The issue of reproduction is not a political one nor a religious one, it is a social one that societies must address with intelligence and not with lust and corporate greed.
1
This is terrible - but I'm always puzzled why there is so little collective action by women to stop this nonsense. We have real voting power? Why do these mostly republican governors and state legislators continue to win re-election? Why do women still shop at Hobby Lobby? If women just stopped shopping at Hobby Lobby for a week - I bet they would gladly cover contraception for their mostly female workforce - but we don't do that - why?
14
Still controlled by men? Plus Democrats don't vote.
3
I don't shop there. I don't eat at Chic filet either.
3
The religious right has become increasingly creepy and destructive. They oppose educating young people about contraception, virtually assuring that teenage girls will become pregnant. Then, they force them to have children they are unprepared to raise, while they oppose funding for social services to support the mother and child.
To those who insist that youth should just be taught not to have sex outside of marriage: remember how well that worked for Sarah Palin's daughter, who proudly demonstrated the abysmal failure of abstinence-only education.
To those who insist that youth should just be taught not to have sex outside of marriage: remember how well that worked for Sarah Palin's daughter, who proudly demonstrated the abysmal failure of abstinence-only education.
18
I read this article the first time and appreciated the detailed history put together by Linda Greenhouse, but was also appalled by it. Then had to go brew some tea and look out the window ... this compressed report of retrogressive and mean, moralistic, punitive state laws was so awful.
Then it occurred to me that, behind the screen, there's very good news hidden in this article: medication abortion. No doubt this private, "empowering" option has been made possible by prolonged, determined medical research and political action. Good!
So now I'm happier.
It's been a long, ferocious, political wrestling match, this fight for women's rights to choose contraception and abortion. My great-grandmother died of a septic, illegal abortion in 1903 (leaving behind her little daughter, my grandmother). We forget the bloodiness and desperation of our history.
Then it occurred to me that, behind the screen, there's very good news hidden in this article: medication abortion. No doubt this private, "empowering" option has been made possible by prolonged, determined medical research and political action. Good!
So now I'm happier.
It's been a long, ferocious, political wrestling match, this fight for women's rights to choose contraception and abortion. My great-grandmother died of a septic, illegal abortion in 1903 (leaving behind her little daughter, my grandmother). We forget the bloodiness and desperation of our history.
84
Thank you for sharing your comment. I had a great aunt, a poor immigrant, who also died from a legal abortion. She left behind a husband and two children.
6
The "abortion map" does not follow the normal geographic concentration.
That is because how people feel about abortion doesn't follow a simple trajectory. There are some who believe it is always moral and should be always legal; some who believe it is never moral and should never be legal; some who believe that it is immoral, necessary and should be legal, or legal with some restrictions; some who believe it is sometimes moral, should be sometimes legal; some who believe it is usually immoral and should be nonetheless illegal.
The mixed bag of emotions and reasoning leave a mixed map of support for abortion rights and abortion restrictions.
We need to separate the issues of legality and morality, and are unlikely to do so.
That is because how people feel about abortion doesn't follow a simple trajectory. There are some who believe it is always moral and should be always legal; some who believe it is never moral and should never be legal; some who believe that it is immoral, necessary and should be legal, or legal with some restrictions; some who believe it is sometimes moral, should be sometimes legal; some who believe it is usually immoral and should be nonetheless illegal.
The mixed bag of emotions and reasoning leave a mixed map of support for abortion rights and abortion restrictions.
We need to separate the issues of legality and morality, and are unlikely to do so.
9
Yes, and the numerical breakdown on your second paragraph is:
80% of the population is fine with "some or all" choices of abortion
and, only 20% of the population deems that abortion should "never" happen.
The problem is not with the numbers who support abortion.
It is with a conservative/fundamentalist Congress.
Vote.
80% of the population is fine with "some or all" choices of abortion
and, only 20% of the population deems that abortion should "never" happen.
The problem is not with the numbers who support abortion.
It is with a conservative/fundamentalist Congress.
Vote.
6
A generation from now, these red states will have a lot more poor children on their hands, and all the social ills that accompany the unfortunate women who live there.
On another note, what must the doctors think of this insanity. Imagine, a politician signs a law requiring a dosage that is utterly contrary to objective evidence (and now, FDA guidelines). That has to take the cake.
I thought they hated government overreach --- but in truth, they love it, embrace it, are addicted to it.
On another note, what must the doctors think of this insanity. Imagine, a politician signs a law requiring a dosage that is utterly contrary to objective evidence (and now, FDA guidelines). That has to take the cake.
I thought they hated government overreach --- but in truth, they love it, embrace it, are addicted to it.
72
The Casey Court unduly balanced the exercise of a women's right to terminate her pregnancy in favor of states' rights to interfere with it. The ongoing and cumulative impact of applying such a lopsided, balancing test is itself an undue burden on a woman's right to choose. If the fulcrum point of balancing state-interest and individual freedom is weighted toward state-interest, exercising individual freedom is unduly burdened (much like a teeter-totter with unequal weights on opposite sides).
https://casetext.com/posts/roe-casey-and-whole-womans-health-v-hellerste...
5
A new law passed in Indiana outlaws abortion in the case of a fetus' disability. Nothing demonstrates the perverse "morality" of the abortion opponents better that this monstrous bill. A woman requires no justification for not wanting to be a mother but if there is a case in which abortion may be seen as morally mandatory, it is when the pregnant woman knows the life she is creating will be doomed to suffering. Why would anybody with an ounce of moral sense increase the amount of pain in the world? Of course, not all disease can be diagnosed in utero. When a human person with disability already exists, society needs to do whatever is possible to help. But why to create one if this can be avoided? How is the deliberate imposition of suffering on innocent women and children better than torture? By forcing women to give birth to disabled babies, anti-abortion fanatics punish both the woman and the child to satisfy their own sadistic fantasies. And then they accuse abortion supporters of immorality!
16
This law will be struck down, just as the same law signed by Governor John Kasich in Ohio will be.
6
I wish the "deliberate overdose" approach to political/medical coercion were a new story. Unfortunately, it's not. The only way I can think of to handle this recurring nightmare involves coming to grips with off-label uses and dosages more generally. As it is, one experience like this undermines not only the citizen's trust in government but also the human being's willingness to seek or accept even appropriate medical advice.
2
I'm from a very conservative place. Over time it has become clear to me that the real game in these places is to make angry stump speeches, raise funding, rally, stir hatred and pass legislation around these arcane social issues every once in a while to distract voters while right-wing politicians do their real work, which is to lower taxes and regulations for the industries and corporations they are actually representing.
12
While I am happy to see the gay rights movement organize effective boycotts in North Carolina recently, I wonder why no businesses get on board to boycott states that have draconian anti reproductive rights laws? What if I am employed in a "good" state but am asked to relocate to Arizona or Texas by my employer. I am now going to have lesser rights than I had before the move. Why should I move? why should access to a safe and legal procedure be dictated by where I live, which could be an accident of birth or a forced employment move. Time for businesses to wake up to this reality as well.
12
I was surprised, when the issue of 'admitting privileges' at Texas hospitals first arose and was discussed in news articles, to discover what 'admitting privileges' really are. I confess I'd never thought about it; I assumed hospitals granted them by taking into account such factors as patient outcomes; board certifications; malpractice suits, complaints, and disciplinary actions; peer reputation; similar indicia of quality.
Nope. You get admitting privileges based on the number of patients you admit per year - the hospital's revenue stream. One article quoted 30 patients a year as the minimum. 30!
Think about this, and envision a good doctor, who catches and treats small problems before they become big ones, or a doctor who does mostly routine procedures (that is, an abortion provider). They won't get 'admitting privileges' because they won't make enough money for the hospital. Whereas a barely competent quack can guarantee the hospital a steady stream of his lucrative mistakes and oversights.
BTW the difference between 'for profit' and 'nonprofit' hospitals is a joke. But that's another discussion, which we're having now in NJ. Point here is, either way the hospital's concern is $$$. The notion that 'admitting privileges' have anything to do with protecting a woman's health is therefore shown up for the arrant nonsense it is.
Nope. You get admitting privileges based on the number of patients you admit per year - the hospital's revenue stream. One article quoted 30 patients a year as the minimum. 30!
Think about this, and envision a good doctor, who catches and treats small problems before they become big ones, or a doctor who does mostly routine procedures (that is, an abortion provider). They won't get 'admitting privileges' because they won't make enough money for the hospital. Whereas a barely competent quack can guarantee the hospital a steady stream of his lucrative mistakes and oversights.
BTW the difference between 'for profit' and 'nonprofit' hospitals is a joke. But that's another discussion, which we're having now in NJ. Point here is, either way the hospital's concern is $$$. The notion that 'admitting privileges' have anything to do with protecting a woman's health is therefore shown up for the arrant nonsense it is.
16
The drumbeat about state legislative efforts to end abortion through enacted laws continues. The remedy is simple, elect representatives who will repeal all anti-abortion laws, enact no new ones, and provide funding for abortions. Abortion is the outlier on constitutional rights in that all other constitutional rights protect minorities, usually unpopular minorities. Women are a majority in this country, a majority in every state,and have not been targeted directly in the denying the right to vote movement. The depth of women's failure can be seen in, per Mrs. Greenhouse, you can't make this up, over 50 women writing letters to Supreme Court Justice Kennedy saying how important an abortion was in their lives.
There needs to be a movement to educate women that if elected representatives can pass these scientifically idiotic measures new elected representatives can repeal them. If even a majority of women in each state,not even the actual women majority in each state, organize and inform legislators, you will repeal all anti-abortion measures, pass no new ones, and provided funding for abortions, or the only way you will be in the state legislative chamber is with a visitor pass, the population landscape likely would change.
There needs to be a movement to educate women that if elected representatives can pass these scientifically idiotic measures new elected representatives can repeal them. If even a majority of women in each state,not even the actual women majority in each state, organize and inform legislators, you will repeal all anti-abortion measures, pass no new ones, and provided funding for abortions, or the only way you will be in the state legislative chamber is with a visitor pass, the population landscape likely would change.
1
The late Justice Antonin Scalia, partisan advocate that he was, would have gone along with the ruse, proclaiming with great seriousness that the courts must take legislatures at their word and treat these measures as women's health protections. For that reason alone, even if there were no other reason, it is critically important that Democrats unite in November to ensure that Scalia's replacement is selected by Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders and not Donald Trump or Ted Cruz.
These measures are indeed shamelessly transparent efforts to burden women's exercise of their constitutionally recognized right to choose. It is critically important to that right that we have a Supreme Court that is not willing to indulge the legislative pretext.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
These measures are indeed shamelessly transparent efforts to burden women's exercise of their constitutionally recognized right to choose. It is critically important to that right that we have a Supreme Court that is not willing to indulge the legislative pretext.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
7
1973 was not the beginning of abortions in the US. It was the end of women being harmed by or dying from illegal abortions.
I was raped in 1980 in San Francisco. The police took me to SF General Hospital. The nurse there asked me if there was a possibility I might become pregnant, and told me she could give me pills if I wanted to prevent that. In the 1990's, my gynecologist told me that doctors have known for a long time that a certain high dose of specific hormonal birth control pills causes abortion. This drug has since been reformulated in dosages specifically for that purpose. But it's nothing new.
There is no way to stop doctors and women from using the particular hormonal birth control pill as an early abortifacient. The information has been out for decades now.
I was raped in 1980 in San Francisco. The police took me to SF General Hospital. The nurse there asked me if there was a possibility I might become pregnant, and told me she could give me pills if I wanted to prevent that. In the 1990's, my gynecologist told me that doctors have known for a long time that a certain high dose of specific hormonal birth control pills causes abortion. This drug has since been reformulated in dosages specifically for that purpose. But it's nothing new.
There is no way to stop doctors and women from using the particular hormonal birth control pill as an early abortifacient. The information has been out for decades now.
10
True, but you have to have the hormone pills in your hands within a certain number of hours since unprotected intercourse. And, as you may know, many states will not permit minors to purchase plan B. Plan B is also useless in cases of contraceptive failure, because you would not know that you needed to take it.
3
Happy to see that "almost everywhere" doesn't include the West Coast states and most of New England (I grew up in Upstate New York). Before I retired, some of my colleagues asked me if I planned to stay in California despite how much it costs to live here. I said of course I did - it's worth every penny! I've never had reason to regret my choice to remain in California. In this instance, I get what I pay for.
Even though I'm long past the age where I will ever need to seek an abortion, I view this issue as impacting all women, including women in my age demographic. A society that denies a woman control of her own body is telling her she's less than fully human and is comfortable with the idea of denying women the rights and freedom that men take for granted. I would never choose to live in such a society.
We have different societies/communities in this country. I live in one that represents what I hope is the future for the U.S.: one that respects the basic human rights of women, all women. Control of one's body is crucial to maintaining such rights. This issue is every bit as important to me now as it was when I was in my 20's and 30's. Because I'm still a woman and part of my community.
Even though I'm long past the age where I will ever need to seek an abortion, I view this issue as impacting all women, including women in my age demographic. A society that denies a woman control of her own body is telling her she's less than fully human and is comfortable with the idea of denying women the rights and freedom that men take for granted. I would never choose to live in such a society.
We have different societies/communities in this country. I live in one that represents what I hope is the future for the U.S.: one that respects the basic human rights of women, all women. Control of one's body is crucial to maintaining such rights. This issue is every bit as important to me now as it was when I was in my 20's and 30's. Because I'm still a woman and part of my community.
18
It remains amazing to me that a fight for innocent life is called extremist, while the other side, desperate to bring on more destruction, is called a fight for freedom. For a reluctant pro-choicer, it is hard to adequately justify taking life to rectify a personal failure (to effectively practice birth control) never mind to demand that it become more prevalent. What was once a reluctant nod to a need has now become a demand without restraint of any kind and in fact, encouraged. Any attempt to put the brakes on run-away, extremist abortion demand is regarded as a war on women. Well, it certainly is a war on babies; women? not so much. Women have choices, babies do not. And now, increasing a woman's power over the life and continued existence of a baby is a necessity to the fulfillment of a woman's freedom. Kind of scary. In an age when control over conception has never been easier, more acceptable or available -- never. But hey, don't want it? It's just a grape sized thing. Want it? It's the most precious life in your world. Abortion is certainly about power -- and convenience -- and freedom? This is what passes for freedom now? Our world is becoming more and more perverse.
10
Except that efforts to restrict abortion are almost always accompanied by actions that make it harder to obtain contraception as well.
9
Women have been aborting unwanted pregnancies for thousands of years. There is evidence Ancient Greek women used a potion of toxic herbs to induce abortion/miscarriage.
To all the anti-abortion/pro-life people, I'd like to pose a respectful and straight-forward question and I'd appreciate a respectful and straight-forward answer:
If all abortion procedures were outlawed in the United States, to you believe that American women will stop having abortions?
To all the anti-abortion/pro-life people, I'd like to pose a respectful and straight-forward question and I'd appreciate a respectful and straight-forward answer:
If all abortion procedures were outlawed in the United States, to you believe that American women will stop having abortions?
8
“The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” Confucius. Language is very old and most useful when used with precision. The use of babies to describe zygotes and fetuses is inconsistent with clarity and a sophistic conflation of nouns. A human life cannot be created without a zygote preceded by an egg and by a sperm. Should those who are celibate be castigated for not giving 'babies', your definition, a chance? The inappropriate use of 'babies' renders the thought train which follows as suspect.
11
Than you Ms Greenhouse. I am always smarter after reading your column. I wish there were more columnists of your ilk. Thoughtful, calm, not overheated, not matter what the topic.
The onslaught of restrictive laws on abortion doesn't just happen out of the blue. They are crafted in right wing law offices and introduced, often word-for-word, by compliant legislators. It is a campaign underway nationwide, a campaign with one objective in mind: to outlaw abortion and all forms of birth control.
53
The ultimate goal of the cynically misnamed "right-to-life" movement is the paramount objective of almost all organized religions since the early priests overthrew the earlier priestesses -
the subjugation of females to men.
the subjugation of females to men.
8
Not exactly. I support and encourage allowance of killing the product of conception throughout the first 11weeks gestation. As far as I am concerned, most women who would abort SHOULD abort before a fetal life has begun.
Women should treat the product of conception throughout the first 11weeks gestation with no more dignity than a dog tick. A human fetus can't be frozen for later use and a fetus should be protected.
Women should treat the product of conception throughout the first 11weeks gestation with no more dignity than a dog tick. A human fetus can't be frozen for later use and a fetus should be protected.
The Republican war on women continues...
9
That is nonsense. We want to stop the war on the unborn. That is where the battle lies.
1
Sorry but there is no "war on the unborn". Find me a zygote that can survive outside the uterus of an actual living, thinking mother. Your war is against women; you apparently think they are too stupid to make their own healthcare decisions. I am so very tired of people like you who pretend to know 'what is best for all the poor, misguided ladies". Why don't you go adopt some meth orphans or refugee children who might actually NEED your help?
5
Forget illegal. They want to make it impossible. TReating women
as trained seals to jump through hoops to exercise a constitutional
right. One medicallu unnecessary requirement after another.
Keep in mind, the real target is Griswold.
If you cannot control your own body, you are not free and you
are not equal.
The stakes could not be higher this November. Ladies your
lives are on the line. That is no understatement.
Word
as trained seals to jump through hoops to exercise a constitutional
right. One medicallu unnecessary requirement after another.
Keep in mind, the real target is Griswold.
If you cannot control your own body, you are not free and you
are not equal.
The stakes could not be higher this November. Ladies your
lives are on the line. That is no understatement.
Word
20
The law is no longer simply the law. It has now become one of the more powerful and abused tools to be used by partisans to rally for or pushback on legislation and policies according to their particular stance. Abortion obviously is one such area of freewheeling legal interpretation. Thus, the tizzy about the Garland nomination since the Supreme Court is now the epicenter of legal manipulation to overriding the will of the people in the US.
Some people oppose abortion. Some people are for it. As such, it is subject to the ups and downs of public sentiment, legislative vagaries, executive privilege or judicial fiat. So, both sides will continue to willfully and freely "interpret" the law to their own ends, using the three branches of government as the any means necessary to achieve their goals.
Greenhouse, as much as she tries to put herself forth as an objective assessor of the law, is just another partisan attorney merely using her legal skills to craft a case supporting her pro-abortion stance.
Some people oppose abortion. Some people are for it. As such, it is subject to the ups and downs of public sentiment, legislative vagaries, executive privilege or judicial fiat. So, both sides will continue to willfully and freely "interpret" the law to their own ends, using the three branches of government as the any means necessary to achieve their goals.
Greenhouse, as much as she tries to put herself forth as an objective assessor of the law, is just another partisan attorney merely using her legal skills to craft a case supporting her pro-abortion stance.
4
I am not "pro-abortion". What I'm pro is the right to make my own decisions about my own body. Now, I admit, I'm past child-bearing age, but I am a woman.
I'm fortunate, I never had to make that decision. But, it is not up to me to tell other women what to do with their bodies. Nobody is forcing other people to have abortions. And, I really believe that it must be a difficult decision to make, but again it is not my business to tell someone they have to have the same moral beliefs as myself.
I'm fortunate, I never had to make that decision. But, it is not up to me to tell other women what to do with their bodies. Nobody is forcing other people to have abortions. And, I really believe that it must be a difficult decision to make, but again it is not my business to tell someone they have to have the same moral beliefs as myself.
3
NO ONE is "pro-abortion." That is an offensive characterization of the views of people who instead seek to allow all people to have self-determination in matters of their health. Abortion, like any medical procedure, should be between the patient and the physician. Nobody else should be involved. Not you, not me, not the legislators of Arizona.
1
Greenhouse is neither pro- nor anti- abortion. She is pro- a woman's choice to decide for herself whether she wants to, or is ready to, have a child. She recognizes (as you do not), that the decision that any woman comes to on this is none of your business.
3
Thank you, Ms. Greenhouse, for highlighting what is happening in states across the country.
I live in Texas and have seen the impact of legislation relating to women’s access to reproductive health care. This chipping away has been going on for years. I’d love to believe that our lawmakers have been working to protect and promote women’s health, but when taken in the aggregate, the decisions look a lot more like a sustained agenda.
The lead up to the new FDA label is revealing. Can we say in good faith that women’s health was the driver behind laws prohibiting doctors from adhering to evidence-based, accepted protocol (a lower dosage in this case)?
There are consequences to actions taken by the state. The New England Journal of Medicine recently published a study concluding that there has been a spike in births among low income women in Texas due to ‘inaccessibility to affordable and effective contraception and thus a reduction in use.’ The result of Texas drastically cutting funds to Planned Parenthood in 2011.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1511902
With regard to SCOTUS and HB2, I trust the justices will be clear eyed when weighing undue burden against the state’s intent/interest. Clear eyed when thinking about Constitutionally protected rights, and the proper role of government when passing laws that impact our personal health decisions and access to care.
I live in Texas and have seen the impact of legislation relating to women’s access to reproductive health care. This chipping away has been going on for years. I’d love to believe that our lawmakers have been working to protect and promote women’s health, but when taken in the aggregate, the decisions look a lot more like a sustained agenda.
The lead up to the new FDA label is revealing. Can we say in good faith that women’s health was the driver behind laws prohibiting doctors from adhering to evidence-based, accepted protocol (a lower dosage in this case)?
There are consequences to actions taken by the state. The New England Journal of Medicine recently published a study concluding that there has been a spike in births among low income women in Texas due to ‘inaccessibility to affordable and effective contraception and thus a reduction in use.’ The result of Texas drastically cutting funds to Planned Parenthood in 2011.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1511902
With regard to SCOTUS and HB2, I trust the justices will be clear eyed when weighing undue burden against the state’s intent/interest. Clear eyed when thinking about Constitutionally protected rights, and the proper role of government when passing laws that impact our personal health decisions and access to care.
11
Having observed the abortion wars from before Roe v. Wade to the present, it strikes me that we women along with men of solid ethics have been somewhat complicit in the buildup to the horrifying laws that are currently being put into place.
First, as great as Roe was for us (no more anxiety along with a late period!), the ruling itself placed conditions on the procedure. And it seems those conditions have opened the door to years of useless argument, with women's and their family's rights always being chopped away, little by little. Now they speak of fetal pain, selling baby parts, and proclaim that rape by the state via ultrasound is mandatory. Drip, drip, drip. We have allowed them to remove abortion from state or federal funding, remove it from insurance policies, and have patted on the back those who would "permit" abortion in cases of rape, incest, or the life of the mother.
Abortion is a medical procedure practiced freely throughout much of the world. It is a private matter, and no one involved need apologize or give an explanation to anyone else. It should be covered under Medicaid, Tri-care, and any other state or federal funding sources just as any other gynecological procedure would be and be part of any standard insurance policy.
This incrementalism has lost many women their dignity, their health, even their lives. It's time for the Supreme Court to get this behind us.
First, as great as Roe was for us (no more anxiety along with a late period!), the ruling itself placed conditions on the procedure. And it seems those conditions have opened the door to years of useless argument, with women's and their family's rights always being chopped away, little by little. Now they speak of fetal pain, selling baby parts, and proclaim that rape by the state via ultrasound is mandatory. Drip, drip, drip. We have allowed them to remove abortion from state or federal funding, remove it from insurance policies, and have patted on the back those who would "permit" abortion in cases of rape, incest, or the life of the mother.
Abortion is a medical procedure practiced freely throughout much of the world. It is a private matter, and no one involved need apologize or give an explanation to anyone else. It should be covered under Medicaid, Tri-care, and any other state or federal funding sources just as any other gynecological procedure would be and be part of any standard insurance policy.
This incrementalism has lost many women their dignity, their health, even their lives. It's time for the Supreme Court to get this behind us.
101
Yes, agree. But here's what confuses me. Why are some of the most fierce players in the US anti-abortion debates female? I tend to think, "Oh, those mean, patriarchal guys out there, if we could only render them briefly pregnant, they'd see the light and donate to Planned Parenthood." But in fact the citizens supporting these laws are often women. 50 percent? I'd like to see an article analyzing that pattern.
2
Add the VA for women veterans.
2
"The F.D.A.’s decision two weeks ago ... didn’t make quite the splash I would have expected."
Not only was the timing blatantly political and designed to interfere, as in throw a monkey-wrench, in the governor's bill-signing, it brings-up troubling questions about years-long FDA inaction on private Pharma, perhaps even outright collusion, on excess doses. These developments have all the trappings of a huge scandal, but not yet splashing in the press, no small thanks to The Times and others glazing over.
Nevertheless, given that thousands over the years are now excess-dose victims with monetary claims, all due to the inactions of wink-and-nod FDA, and all of whose abortion rights Ms. Greenhouse passionately advocates for, we should see the real truth come out in the form of class-action lawsuits, and possibly independent counsel investigations.
But wouldn't it be nice to see pro-abortion advocates raise the first hue and cry on this scandal for a change? C'mon, too many sleeping together in the same bed: big Pharma, government, PP, and now the NYT. Never mind the Arizona governor, one of you get up and start raising hell on this rotting scandal. Yes, you NYT.
Not only was the timing blatantly political and designed to interfere, as in throw a monkey-wrench, in the governor's bill-signing, it brings-up troubling questions about years-long FDA inaction on private Pharma, perhaps even outright collusion, on excess doses. These developments have all the trappings of a huge scandal, but not yet splashing in the press, no small thanks to The Times and others glazing over.
Nevertheless, given that thousands over the years are now excess-dose victims with monetary claims, all due to the inactions of wink-and-nod FDA, and all of whose abortion rights Ms. Greenhouse passionately advocates for, we should see the real truth come out in the form of class-action lawsuits, and possibly independent counsel investigations.
But wouldn't it be nice to see pro-abortion advocates raise the first hue and cry on this scandal for a change? C'mon, too many sleeping together in the same bed: big Pharma, government, PP, and now the NYT. Never mind the Arizona governor, one of you get up and start raising hell on this rotting scandal. Yes, you NYT.
3
NO ONE is "pro abortion."
Requiring three times the necessary dose for the purpose of punishing women with the side effects, to deter them from using the medication at all -- now that can't be sold as being for the health of women like hospital privileges is sold. It is just blatant.
Someone who would hurt people with a deliberate overdose is just evil.
Ban it if you can, but just legislating harm is evil.
Someone who would hurt people with a deliberate overdose is just evil.
Ban it if you can, but just legislating harm is evil.
37
" [L]egislating harm is evil." It's almost as if the legislators responsible for these laws are at war with women; why do the Republicans keep denying this fact?
4
Republicans in the Missouri statehouse want to pass an amendment to the Missouri constitution that would outlaw abortion with NO exceptions at all - none for incest, rape or the life of the mother. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. If a Missouri legislator had a wife or daughter with a life-threatening pregnancy involving a fetus that was so defective it could not survive (as did happen to a friend of mine), the odds are extremely high that he/she would make sure they could get her to a state offering abortion.
I don't care that some people's faiths make them value a fetus over a living, breathing person. Why should their faiths trump mine or that of others? The reasons for abortion are many and no one, especially not politicians, should have the right to determine what is right for any woman or her family. Women have the intellect, their own faiths, and their own medical advisors with which to make such decisions. I resent the fact that Republicans believe women are incapable of making their own decisions, and that women are second class citizens who should be subservient to the whims of male-dominated faiths and legislatures.
I don't care that some people's faiths make them value a fetus over a living, breathing person. Why should their faiths trump mine or that of others? The reasons for abortion are many and no one, especially not politicians, should have the right to determine what is right for any woman or her family. Women have the intellect, their own faiths, and their own medical advisors with which to make such decisions. I resent the fact that Republicans believe women are incapable of making their own decisions, and that women are second class citizens who should be subservient to the whims of male-dominated faiths and legislatures.
60
The media also needs to stop referring to the anti-abortion movement as "pro-life." There is nothing pro-life about it. If the media can start to train themselves to use accurate terminology-- anti or pro abortion--then the public could ultimately follow suit. Not to blame the media for this craziness. But I am startled over and over again by the skill with which the repressive wing of the Republican party can rename/re-market anything (religious freedom) and have it stick... We give them power at the most basic level... Thank you for writing the column.
59
I would argue that no one really is "pro abortion" as that term simply plays neatly into the argument of those opposed. I'd rather see the media stick with the more accurate label "pro choice." This is what this long battle is all about - the right of women to make the choice whether to bring a new life into this world when they are ready financially, physically and emotionally to do so. Only the woman facing that momentous decision should be empowered to make that choice. And it also should be up to her to decide whether to seek the advice of others in her life.
5
I use anti-choice
3
While I agree that the right wing has a PR genius for assigning distorting and inaccurate labels, I'm not sure that your solution in this instance – – using the terms "anti-abortion" and "pro-abortion" – – works.
At least it does not work for me. I am not "pro-abortion," I am pro-reproductive rights.
Nobody in this debate, as far as I'm aware, would recommend abortion to women who do not want it. It's about recognizing a basic human right to exercise control over one's own body. In short, the right to choose.
So why don't we just stick with "pro-choice" and call the opposite view what it is: anti-choice.
At least it does not work for me. I am not "pro-abortion," I am pro-reproductive rights.
Nobody in this debate, as far as I'm aware, would recommend abortion to women who do not want it. It's about recognizing a basic human right to exercise control over one's own body. In short, the right to choose.
So why don't we just stick with "pro-choice" and call the opposite view what it is: anti-choice.
5
Why don't more husbands and boyfriends speak out in favor of women's right to choose,since if they are responsible partners they have a vested interest birth control and abortion? Why do sit back and let it be all a women's battle? They should be lobbying congress right along with their partners. Shame on you "gentlemen" who don't.
91
This husband does everything he can.
6
Funny how the folks who fret about abortion can’t seem to feel the love for the demographic with the lowest abortion rate of all: gays and lesbians.
Protecting life? Don’t make me laugh. This brouhaha has only ever been about sex and only sex.
Protecting life? Don’t make me laugh. This brouhaha has only ever been about sex and only sex.
67
"This brouhaha has only ever been about sex and only sex."
And power. The desperate need to assert power over women as we insist on having it.
And power. The desperate need to assert power over women as we insist on having it.
6
It is way past time to stop referring to the self-defined "pro-life" side without quotation marks.
These are the same people who treat actual human girls and women as much less then living, thinking people; the people who lie about their "concern" for women's health when they make up fraudulent laws they claim are to protect women but are actually designed to punish women for being sexual; the people who are so "concerned" with women that they wouldn't fund a successful program that reduced teen pregnancy and abortions:
"During the period from 2009 to 2013, births to teen mothers dropped by 40% and abortions dropped 35%, the state says. Armed with a national award for excellence, state health officials asked lawmakers this spring to provide $5 million to keep it going but were rebuffed." -- http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/07/colorado-iud-lo...
These are people who hate life unless they can control it.
These are the same people who treat actual human girls and women as much less then living, thinking people; the people who lie about their "concern" for women's health when they make up fraudulent laws they claim are to protect women but are actually designed to punish women for being sexual; the people who are so "concerned" with women that they wouldn't fund a successful program that reduced teen pregnancy and abortions:
"During the period from 2009 to 2013, births to teen mothers dropped by 40% and abortions dropped 35%, the state says. Armed with a national award for excellence, state health officials asked lawmakers this spring to provide $5 million to keep it going but were rebuffed." -- http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/07/colorado-iud-lo...
These are people who hate life unless they can control it.
78
"These are the same people who treat actual human girls and women as much less then living, thinking people"
What do you know about these "same people"? Did you mean Mother Teresa? Did you mean Mahatma Gandhi? Did you mean MLK? Did you mean his niece Alveda King?
It is wrong to kill fetuses who belong to no party because of your imaginary picture of those who care about its life.
What do you know about these "same people"? Did you mean Mother Teresa? Did you mean Mahatma Gandhi? Did you mean MLK? Did you mean his niece Alveda King?
It is wrong to kill fetuses who belong to no party because of your imaginary picture of those who care about its life.
I'd like to see the term "anti choice" used.
3
Forcing someone to take a dangerously dosage must be criminal. Creating laws specifically intended to endanger the lives of these women is reckless endangerment. Prosecute and jail the self righteous hypocrites.
61
I think that stupid and mean-spirited legislation passed by Republican lawmakers should only apply to Republican constituents. Leave the rest of us to live our lives without their benefit.
65
This is the party of Donald Trump, who openly proclaimed that women who abort should be punished. What better way to do that but to force them to take a triple dose of a drug that could kill them? GOP--the party that hates women!!!
1
Well put. I usually support the power of government to impose uniform rules on everyone, as a necessary part of civilized society, but abortion is different.
This absolutely breaks my heart. I want so much to believe that we can find a way to restore sanity to our politics and that we can somehow begin to speak rationally to each other. I am so discouraged. Politics can go nowhere when each side demonizes the other. I do not want to demonize, but I cannot find a reason not to. These Republican governors are evil.
60
Just as rape is not about sex, but rather is about power, the anti-abortion movement is not about "saving babies" but rather is about exercising power, about taking from women any sense of agency or autonomy they might dare to believe they possess.
The "religion" at issue is the belief that women are second class creatures who must be punished for having sex, and that their punishment is for them to be denied contraceptives, and to then be forced to carry any resulting pregnancy to term, with the ultimate outcome of that pregnancy to then be denied any and all support. Yes, babies are seen as punishment, and it can't get any more depraved than that.
Women should not be allowed to ever engage in sex except for purpose of procreation--that is the fundamental belief of the anti-abortion crowd.
If the pregnancy threatens the life of the woman, so what? Her life is second-class (see above) so it does not matter.
If the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest, so what? Again, the woman is second-class in comparison to the male who impregnated her, so of course his right to procreate takes precedence over her autonomy.
The intent behind forcing bad medical treatment (using 3x the dose and risking greater side effects--i.e., pain and/or complications) is to punish the woman, plain and simple; there can be no other reason for it.
The "religion" at issue is the belief that women are second class creatures who must be punished for having sex, and that their punishment is for them to be denied contraceptives, and to then be forced to carry any resulting pregnancy to term, with the ultimate outcome of that pregnancy to then be denied any and all support. Yes, babies are seen as punishment, and it can't get any more depraved than that.
Women should not be allowed to ever engage in sex except for purpose of procreation--that is the fundamental belief of the anti-abortion crowd.
If the pregnancy threatens the life of the woman, so what? Her life is second-class (see above) so it does not matter.
If the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest, so what? Again, the woman is second-class in comparison to the male who impregnated her, so of course his right to procreate takes precedence over her autonomy.
The intent behind forcing bad medical treatment (using 3x the dose and risking greater side effects--i.e., pain and/or complications) is to punish the woman, plain and simple; there can be no other reason for it.
243
This is exactly right, and is a point that gets lost in the debate over TRAP laws. It's nothing less that an effort to turn sex into a burden for women who must "suffer the consequences" of their behavior. As for men, well, boys will be boys.
12
I'll add to this excellent comment that while medical science tries to perfect the technique of uterine transplant, this effort should extend to making receptive vessels of all male politicians who favor these punitive anti-abortion laws in the interest of "women's health." Pregnancy is riskier to women's health than safe, legal, early abortion, so let's share that risk, why don't we?
51
Brava/Bravo for writing the clearest, most accurate & explicit analysis of the anti-choice position: to punish & control women. Please publish!
10
"In the clear light of day, it’s not easy even for the most abortion-hostile politician to stand up and declare that doctors should be required by law to give three times the evidence-based dose of medicine, any medicine."
This, and the continued war on Planned Parenthood, makes me wonder if the ultimate goal of these misogynists is requiring chastity belts for unmarried women...or women who are not trying to have a child...
This, and the continued war on Planned Parenthood, makes me wonder if the ultimate goal of these misogynists is requiring chastity belts for unmarried women...or women who are not trying to have a child...
33
Given the easy availability of drugs in America, it's difficult to believe that there isn't an easier way to obtain abortion medication than by going to a clinician.
Give it a few years.
Give it a few years.
8
It's good that women are updating Gov. Pence on their menstrual cycles. After all, any period could contain a miscarried zygote or early fetus – – 75% of conceptions self-abort, usually before the woman knows that she has conceived.
To stay on the safe side, I'd suggest that women concerned about staying in conformity with the new law on cremations, burials and and funerals for zygotes and fetuses go one step further:
Instead of just calls and emails to the office of the governor, consider sending his office the physical evidence of your monthly effluvia. The governor may well wish to set up a laboratory and/or review panel to assure that any self-aborted zygotes and fetuses of Indiana are handled properly after they pass from this life into the next.
To stay on the safe side, I'd suggest that women concerned about staying in conformity with the new law on cremations, burials and and funerals for zygotes and fetuses go one step further:
Instead of just calls and emails to the office of the governor, consider sending his office the physical evidence of your monthly effluvia. The governor may well wish to set up a laboratory and/or review panel to assure that any self-aborted zygotes and fetuses of Indiana are handled properly after they pass from this life into the next.
63
I like the way you think!
3
>Instead of just calls and emails to the office of the governor, consider sending his office the physical evidence of your monthly effluvia.
This sort of political theater--if that's the right term--might be what's needed to get through to Governor Pence and others like him. I think it's a great idea, and I regret that I'm past being able to participate.
This sort of political theater--if that's the right term--might be what's needed to get through to Governor Pence and others like him. I think it's a great idea, and I regret that I'm past being able to participate.
4
I so pity those poor unborn children who will never be subjected to conservative compassion.
18
The anti-abortion movement is about to blow up in its own face. Thousands of pregnant women will soon find themselves looking at sonograms of deformed zika fetuses, crying and tearing their hair out at the prospect of a life sentence with nowhere to turn. I'm sure the church will offer them words of solace, but nothing more.
40
The Last Hurrah. The Death Rattle of the GOP. "What's all that gurgling?" We have turned a corner, and we're not going back. Women no longer are willing to stay in shadows. Families, including men and children are affected in some ways as much as women under these medieval laws.
We are all, women and men, now demanding the full measure of our Constitutionally guaranteed rights. We know too much to accept the fraudulent excuses to deprive of our rights.
If the health of the woman is such a concern in these laws then let's have abortions performed at our local hospitals. No issues about patient safety.
We all saw how quickly the corner turned for LBGT rights. To me it was like a cascade, a dam broken, finally. We are not going back to the old days.
The GOP is in tatters. We should take advantage of their weaknesses. We can attack on many fronts and we should. Let's take a page from their efforts and field an "army of workers" for our Constitutional rights, as they do 24/7.
We need to match their efforts. Which has been great. Our efforts can ramp up. Ramp up to finally push it over the edge.
The Tipping Point is coming. Maybe sooner than we all think. Watch for it. Unavoidable.
We are all, women and men, now demanding the full measure of our Constitutionally guaranteed rights. We know too much to accept the fraudulent excuses to deprive of our rights.
If the health of the woman is such a concern in these laws then let's have abortions performed at our local hospitals. No issues about patient safety.
We all saw how quickly the corner turned for LBGT rights. To me it was like a cascade, a dam broken, finally. We are not going back to the old days.
The GOP is in tatters. We should take advantage of their weaknesses. We can attack on many fronts and we should. Let's take a page from their efforts and field an "army of workers" for our Constitutional rights, as they do 24/7.
We need to match their efforts. Which has been great. Our efforts can ramp up. Ramp up to finally push it over the edge.
The Tipping Point is coming. Maybe sooner than we all think. Watch for it. Unavoidable.
17
I've spent years reminding myself that there are some people who oppose abortion are sincere in their motivation. But the disrespect for the Constitution and the humanity of women as practiced by most Republican elected officials has sickened me. A few anti-abortion organization leaders have expressed concern about some of these outrageous laws but every one said that they were afraid that a particular law might interfere with their ability to pass other laws that make it difficult, even impossible, for women to exercise their right to control their own medical decisions.
The most offensive thing about these laws aside from the impact on women seeking an abortion or contraception is the disingenuous claim that each of these laws have been passed to "safeguard the health of women." Shame on every Christian member of the GOP who stands up and tells this lie.
The most offensive thing about these laws aside from the impact on women seeking an abortion or contraception is the disingenuous claim that each of these laws have been passed to "safeguard the health of women." Shame on every Christian member of the GOP who stands up and tells this lie.
222
...except for the fact that abortion isn't in the Constitution.
4
Even Justice Ginsberg-who seemingly hasn't yet seen a form, or circumstance, for abortion she cannot defend-has said that Roe was abominably reasoned and written.
But then it had to be since it was erected on the impossibly rickety opinion in Griswold. With its discovery of "emanations" and "penumbras" found by leftwing Justices to support the existence of a "right to privacy".
A "right" which in their "jurisprudence" has been applied only to the result in subsequent cases which their result oriented decision making dictates-for themselves and the rest of us. In this regard cf. Lewis Carroll: "The word means nothing more or less than I say it does."
But then it had to be since it was erected on the impossibly rickety opinion in Griswold. With its discovery of "emanations" and "penumbras" found by leftwing Justices to support the existence of a "right to privacy".
A "right" which in their "jurisprudence" has been applied only to the result in subsequent cases which their result oriented decision making dictates-for themselves and the rest of us. In this regard cf. Lewis Carroll: "The word means nothing more or less than I say it does."
Just as the Constitution with amendments specifies guns for the militia.
2
The flip side of granting a government the power to insist that women must carry a fetus to term is that we grant them the power to insist that women should not be allowed to reproduce. Once we grant that level of intrusion into our lives, it cuts both ways. And who decides which women must give birth, and which women must not?
Those of you in favor of giving government the power to ban abortion, are you at peace with the idea that government has the right to interfere with your reproductive decisions if you wish to reproduce but are prevented from doing so? If not, why not? If the shoe fits...
Those of you in favor of giving government the power to ban abortion, are you at peace with the idea that government has the right to interfere with your reproductive decisions if you wish to reproduce but are prevented from doing so? If not, why not? If the shoe fits...
17
This monkey business won't end until the first amendment prohibition of faith based legislation is implacably enforced on all these prevaricating politicians.
38
It has nothing to do with faith unless you make it so.
Caring about Romney's dog, about Syrian refugees, about people facing a death sentence, and caring about the innocent unborn, are all alike.
We care not because of some God or some scripture. We care because we are human beings and caring for helpless is part of our nature.
Caring about Romney's dog, about Syrian refugees, about people facing a death sentence, and caring about the innocent unborn, are all alike.
We care not because of some God or some scripture. We care because we are human beings and caring for helpless is part of our nature.
Exactly! These are the very people who get so exercised about their imagined threat Sharia law being introduced by immigrant Muslims. We should be as afraid of Cristian-reasoned law as of Islam-reasoned or Hindu-reasoned law. And we should gather ourselves into a huge movement to have every state's laws reviewed for religious influence. Then we should compile those findings and publish them for use by every big employer in the country and for every organization that holds national gatherings. It seems to be effective for stopping some of the crazy new license to discriminate laws. Why not?
1
When Donald Trump uttered his politically incorrect comments on abortion, he pointed out a truth: if you criminalize abortion, it is only logical to also criminalize the solicitation of abortion. A number of op-ed pieces, including at least one in the Times, expanded on the point. So let those states that want to criminalize abortion do what common sense requires: criminalize the solicitation of abortion as well, so the woman is complicit. And see how that goes over with your electorate. Or quote the 1904 ruling, based on the premise that women are too weak to be held accountable for their decisions.
31
The decision by the Supreme Court to legalize abortion may have solved the legal question surrounding this issue. But for many, in no way did it solve the moral questions. Many truly, deeply believe that abortion is wrong. Some believe, because of religious reasons, that abortion is a sin, and therefore must be stopped. Some believe, even beyond any religion, that it is the taking of a human life - a human life even at creation. Therefore it must be stopped because the act of abortion is seen as murder. Some, but I think not many, of those who oppose abortion are kooks, who would repay the act of abortion with violence. They are wrong and should be punished like any other criminal. But, for those whose morality steers them to fight against abortion, using whatever legal means they have available to them, they should be strongly supported by all like minded individuals. The tide pushing against abortion is moving slowly, but it is moving.
13
The ease of travel these days makes abortion increasingly available to anyone who can get a few thousand dollars together. So the tide pushing against abortion pushes only poorer women while leaving the wives, children, and mistresses of preachers and legislators alone to do what they want, as long as they can come up with some money. Drug-induced abortions are also part of the tide implementing a woman's right to choose in this area.
So much for imposing moral values on people who dont agree with them.
So much for imposing moral values on people who dont agree with them.
40
Sdavidc9,
You could make the exact same argument about the "morality" of allowing African-Americans the right to vote, a right enshrined BY AMENDMENT to the Constitution. It was imposed upon an entire section of the country that spent another 150 years doing its best to get around the law.
.
If you want abortion to be a constitutional right, put it in an AMENDMENT, because otherwise it's not there. Good luck forcing that "morality" on a majority of Americans.
You could make the exact same argument about the "morality" of allowing African-Americans the right to vote, a right enshrined BY AMENDMENT to the Constitution. It was imposed upon an entire section of the country that spent another 150 years doing its best to get around the law.
.
If you want abortion to be a constitutional right, put it in an AMENDMENT, because otherwise it's not there. Good luck forcing that "morality" on a majority of Americans.
3
gmhk: excuse me. The act of abortion is a personal, private matter. The morality
of it is personal as well and should not be imposed on another person. The so-called "tide pushing against abortion" is total bull - it's religion based, anti-science
and anti women's rights. Call it what it is and keep your ""morality" to yourself.
of it is personal as well and should not be imposed on another person. The so-called "tide pushing against abortion" is total bull - it's religion based, anti-science
and anti women's rights. Call it what it is and keep your ""morality" to yourself.
3
There are the usual religious objections to abortion, and they are free to not have any. But, they have not right to demand others adhere to their medieval beliefs and superstitions.
They claim to be protector of life, and are willing to kill to prove it. It is none of their damned business what other people do with their own bodies, or with what is in them. These anti abortionists are the best argument for abortions, their mothers should have had one, they are a scab on society.
They claim to be protector of life, and are willing to kill to prove it. It is none of their damned business what other people do with their own bodies, or with what is in them. These anti abortionists are the best argument for abortions, their mothers should have had one, they are a scab on society.
25
Castigating southerners for "clinging to the past" when in fact it's a matter of faith is tantamount to calling faith passé. That's demonstrably false.
Would that we were so lucky, but it's not to be.
Of course anti-abortion measures can be found everywhere. Among even the moderately religious as well as those of us who don't imbibe, there's a queasiness about abortion pretty much everywhere in the world: aborting healthy fetuses is counter-evolutionary, counter-survival. You don't need to be religious to sense this. And even Roe provides the means for states to legitimately regulate abortion.
However, we've evolved socially to the point where we can't simply enslave women to archaic notions that were more appropriate to Homo Habilis. Roe is a brilliant compromise that addresses the rights and needs of women AND states, and we put ourselves at grave peril of a religious war on our soil by seeking to destroy it.
We can forget about Congress doing anything useful about this, particularly in an election year. An eight-justice U.S. Supreme Court composed as this one is needs to reassert the primacy of Roe, and with a little nudging it might just do that 5-3, with Kennedy's help. If ever we needed Irish wisdom ...
But this focus on FDA labeling is death to Roe by a thousand cuts. Focusing on every attack cedes the battle, because there is no end to the piece-part attacks and they will overwhelm Roe. All that can really save it is the U.S. Supreme Court.
Would that we were so lucky, but it's not to be.
Of course anti-abortion measures can be found everywhere. Among even the moderately religious as well as those of us who don't imbibe, there's a queasiness about abortion pretty much everywhere in the world: aborting healthy fetuses is counter-evolutionary, counter-survival. You don't need to be religious to sense this. And even Roe provides the means for states to legitimately regulate abortion.
However, we've evolved socially to the point where we can't simply enslave women to archaic notions that were more appropriate to Homo Habilis. Roe is a brilliant compromise that addresses the rights and needs of women AND states, and we put ourselves at grave peril of a religious war on our soil by seeking to destroy it.
We can forget about Congress doing anything useful about this, particularly in an election year. An eight-justice U.S. Supreme Court composed as this one is needs to reassert the primacy of Roe, and with a little nudging it might just do that 5-3, with Kennedy's help. If ever we needed Irish wisdom ...
But this focus on FDA labeling is death to Roe by a thousand cuts. Focusing on every attack cedes the battle, because there is no end to the piece-part attacks and they will overwhelm Roe. All that can really save it is the U.S. Supreme Court.
14
"Castigating southerners for "clinging to the past" when in fact it's a matter of faith is tantamount to calling faith passé. That's demonstrably false."
Care to "demonstrate" that?
Care to "demonstrate" that?
8
Faith is not a legitimate rationale for any law because faith based laws are constitutionally prohibited. Full stop.
6
Bill:
You waste my time, and yours. As of November of 2011, the number of people in the U.S. who identify as believers is 89%, according to a Pew Research poll, down somewhat from 92% in the first such poll Pew conducted in 2007.
If 89% of any sample universe were Martians, you'd really have to conclude that the universe tested consisted overwhelmingly of Martians.
Steve:
Thanks for that. I'm sure we'll get widespread disagreement with your assertion in this forum.
You waste my time, and yours. As of November of 2011, the number of people in the U.S. who identify as believers is 89%, according to a Pew Research poll, down somewhat from 92% in the first such poll Pew conducted in 2007.
If 89% of any sample universe were Martians, you'd really have to conclude that the universe tested consisted overwhelmingly of Martians.
Steve:
Thanks for that. I'm sure we'll get widespread disagreement with your assertion in this forum.
My recommendation is that those who would interfere in other's decisions get a life. Concerned about life, find some families in difficulties and help them with their children. Promote nonviolence.
There are plenty of babies and children out there who could use a mentor, a leg up, some proper nutrition, help with transport and nutrition, help with getting into a good school or getting a job.
Instead of hating on people and putting all your energy into that, which is a kind of violence that is poisoning you, find something you can do to help life get better.
Women are vulnerable, in all kinds of way, and our society makes all kinds of demands. Nowadays kids are getting their sex ed from pornography. Do you think that's right? Should boys be able to demand their girlfriends "service" them in that way? Yes, it's twisted, but blaming the victims never helps. You don't have to accept the arguments from others if you don't like 'em, but it is important to recognize that life takes many forms, and the people all around you could use your help, instead of your hatred. Hatred leads to violence. Hurting the living does not help the unborn.
There are plenty of babies and children out there who could use a mentor, a leg up, some proper nutrition, help with transport and nutrition, help with getting into a good school or getting a job.
Instead of hating on people and putting all your energy into that, which is a kind of violence that is poisoning you, find something you can do to help life get better.
Women are vulnerable, in all kinds of way, and our society makes all kinds of demands. Nowadays kids are getting their sex ed from pornography. Do you think that's right? Should boys be able to demand their girlfriends "service" them in that way? Yes, it's twisted, but blaming the victims never helps. You don't have to accept the arguments from others if you don't like 'em, but it is important to recognize that life takes many forms, and the people all around you could use your help, instead of your hatred. Hatred leads to violence. Hurting the living does not help the unborn.
114
And don't forget that backstreet abortions (coat hanger abortions) were rife before Roe. The health of the baby ain't worth much without the mother being healthy enough to support it.
One argument against the "murder" people is that they value the life of the unborn far more than the life of the mother. To me, this is absolutely baffling. Healthy mothers are the most important thing for babies. Single poor mothers are very badly treated in our society, particularly by the new breed of judgmental moneygrubbing Republicans and authorities.
For example, an abused mother was recently put in jail for standing her ground by firing a warning shot against her abuser (not at him), without regard to the lives of her children. Never mind that Trayvon Martin's killer got off, she was jailed with a long sentence. How exactly is that caring for the children, the innocent?
Of course, she was black. No surprises there.
One argument against the "murder" people is that they value the life of the unborn far more than the life of the mother. To me, this is absolutely baffling. Healthy mothers are the most important thing for babies. Single poor mothers are very badly treated in our society, particularly by the new breed of judgmental moneygrubbing Republicans and authorities.
For example, an abused mother was recently put in jail for standing her ground by firing a warning shot against her abuser (not at him), without regard to the lives of her children. Never mind that Trayvon Martin's killer got off, she was jailed with a long sentence. How exactly is that caring for the children, the innocent?
Of course, she was black. No surprises there.
17
Why is it difficult for you to understand that there are those of us who are pro life before the child is born and after birth? This is our right and freedom of speech. We give to charitable organizations that care for the needy children and family. We are pro-life and the next generation is very pro life. They have seen the horrors of abortion and are outraged.
3
@KMW
I'm glad you support mothers and children as well. That's very good of you. Do you care for the less fortunate? Are you against guns and the death penalty? Are you working to address climate change? (Now that's something that might reduce the earth's population by a couple billion.) Do you care about our water supply?
These are of concern for those who are for life.
I don't like blaming victims. I too like my freedom; quite a range of other people's freedoms don't seem to matter to those on the right, but perhaps I misjudged you.
Personally, I regard humans of all ages as important, not just those who have not yet emerged from the womb.
I'm glad you support mothers and children as well. That's very good of you. Do you care for the less fortunate? Are you against guns and the death penalty? Are you working to address climate change? (Now that's something that might reduce the earth's population by a couple billion.) Do you care about our water supply?
These are of concern for those who are for life.
I don't like blaming victims. I too like my freedom; quite a range of other people's freedoms don't seem to matter to those on the right, but perhaps I misjudged you.
Personally, I regard humans of all ages as important, not just those who have not yet emerged from the womb.
5
Interestingly enough, although Texas doesn't want women to have abortions, and is closing clinics that provide contraception, the state also doesn't want women to have sex by themselves. Wouldn't self sex prevent pregnancy? Texas passed a law that prevents the sale of sex toys. A 43 year old mother of three was arrested after selling a vibrator to two undercover agents posing as a married couple. Ted Cruz defended Texas' law by saying, "There is no substantive due process right to stimulate one's genitals for non-medical purposes unrelated to procreation outside of an interpersonal relationship."
There you have it. Republicans don't want women to have any kind of sex, even with a vibrator, unless it's for procreation.
There you have it. Republicans don't want women to have any kind of sex, even with a vibrator, unless it's for procreation.
274
Thank you, Linda! You know, I knew that Ted was creepy.
Now, my question is this: How many males has Trussed-up Ted arrested for self-pleasuring? Have undercover agents arrested any male trying to sell vibrators? And how much is Texas paying these agents to pose as a married couple so they can buy vibrators? Ah, the Genital Police! Orwell lacked imagination!
Now, my question is this: How many males has Trussed-up Ted arrested for self-pleasuring? Have undercover agents arrested any male trying to sell vibrators? And how much is Texas paying these agents to pose as a married couple so they can buy vibrators? Ah, the Genital Police! Orwell lacked imagination!
24
What's next?
Mandatory chastity belts for all single men and women? Have we entered a time warp back to the dark ages?
Mandatory chastity belts for all single men and women? Have we entered a time warp back to the dark ages?
11
This gets to the nub of the issue. No sex except to have babies for women to carry to term.
6
Don't forget the best part of the North American map --- Canada, where civilization and female liberty remain completely untouched by American-style Christian Shariah Law and religious fanaticism.
Abortion in Canada is legal at any point in a woman's pregnancy for any reason and is governed by the Canada Health Act.
Canada is one of only a few nations with no legal restrictions on abortion.
In 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in R. v. Morgentaler that existing laws criminalizing abortion were unconstitutional and struck them down.
Justice Bertha Wilson noted that that preventing a woman from having an abortion violates a woman's right to conscientiously-held beliefs and deprives women of their "essential humanity".
Wilson said: "The decision whether to terminate a pregnancy is essentially a moral decision, a matter of conscience. I do not think there is or can be any dispute about that. The question is: whose conscience? Is the conscience of the woman to be paramount or the conscience of the state? I believe, for the reasons I gave in discussing the right to liberty, that in a free and democratic society it must be the conscience of the individual.
Abortions in Canada are provided on request and are funded by Medicare (like most medical procedures) in hospitals all across the country.
Abortion funding for hospitals comes from provincial governments and is partly reimbursed by the federal government.
As usual, the USA could learn a lot from Canada.
Abortion in Canada is legal at any point in a woman's pregnancy for any reason and is governed by the Canada Health Act.
Canada is one of only a few nations with no legal restrictions on abortion.
In 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in R. v. Morgentaler that existing laws criminalizing abortion were unconstitutional and struck them down.
Justice Bertha Wilson noted that that preventing a woman from having an abortion violates a woman's right to conscientiously-held beliefs and deprives women of their "essential humanity".
Wilson said: "The decision whether to terminate a pregnancy is essentially a moral decision, a matter of conscience. I do not think there is or can be any dispute about that. The question is: whose conscience? Is the conscience of the woman to be paramount or the conscience of the state? I believe, for the reasons I gave in discussing the right to liberty, that in a free and democratic society it must be the conscience of the individual.
Abortions in Canada are provided on request and are funded by Medicare (like most medical procedures) in hospitals all across the country.
Abortion funding for hospitals comes from provincial governments and is partly reimbursed by the federal government.
As usual, the USA could learn a lot from Canada.
455
Socrates, Sarah Palin said in 2010, "We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada." She loved their single-payer system. Yet for this country she snarled that even 'Obamacare' would have 'death panels' and demonized it in that fact-free way that all Republicans have. The ACA is hardly the sane system that Canada has, thanks largely to people just like her.
Thanks for the info on Canadian abortions.
Sane. Sane. Sane.
Thanks for the info on Canadian abortions.
Sane. Sane. Sane.
23
"Abortion in Canada is legal at any point in a woman's pregnancy for any reason"
Your Wikipedia quote provocatively implies that Canadian women can get abortions on a whim up to the moment of birth. Not at all.
[http://www.arcc-cdac.ca]
Hospitals and some clinics in Canada perform abortions on request up to about 20 weeks, and a few centres do abortions up to 22 or 23 weeks…most of the very small number of abortions performed over 20 weeks gestation in Canada are done to protect the woman’s physical health, or because of serious fetal abnormalities [not] discovered until an amniocentesis test...later in pregnancy. Rare abortions after 22 or 23 weeks gestation are also done in Canada for some cases of lethal fetal abnormalities, where the fetus cannot survive after birth. Since abortion services after 20 weeks are not always readily accessible in all parts of Canada, women are sometimes referred to clinics in the United States...
[letter by Dr. Carolyn Bennett to National Post Feb.5/13]
While in Canada we do not have a law, we do have very strict professional guidelines. No physician in Canada can terminate a pregnancy over 24 weeks without serious indications that the life of the mother is at risk or that the fetus has very serious malformations. I have sat with these women as they received the terrible news…throughout the terrible long, tear-drenched process. The assertion that late-term abortions can be performed “for any reason, or no reason at all” is just not true...
Your Wikipedia quote provocatively implies that Canadian women can get abortions on a whim up to the moment of birth. Not at all.
[http://www.arcc-cdac.ca]
Hospitals and some clinics in Canada perform abortions on request up to about 20 weeks, and a few centres do abortions up to 22 or 23 weeks…most of the very small number of abortions performed over 20 weeks gestation in Canada are done to protect the woman’s physical health, or because of serious fetal abnormalities [not] discovered until an amniocentesis test...later in pregnancy. Rare abortions after 22 or 23 weeks gestation are also done in Canada for some cases of lethal fetal abnormalities, where the fetus cannot survive after birth. Since abortion services after 20 weeks are not always readily accessible in all parts of Canada, women are sometimes referred to clinics in the United States...
[letter by Dr. Carolyn Bennett to National Post Feb.5/13]
While in Canada we do not have a law, we do have very strict professional guidelines. No physician in Canada can terminate a pregnancy over 24 weeks without serious indications that the life of the mother is at risk or that the fetus has very serious malformations. I have sat with these women as they received the terrible news…throughout the terrible long, tear-drenched process. The assertion that late-term abortions can be performed “for any reason, or no reason at all” is just not true...
1
Exactly right Socrates. What century are US legislators living in?
5
The strategy behind the legislative efforts discussed by Professor Greenhouse seems crystal clear. The legislators are forcing their adversaries to play "whack-a-mole," enacting new measures as soon as the courts strike down the old ones. This war of attrition entails high costs, which the state governments can more easily afford than the defenders of women's rights. Even if the laws remain on the books only temporarily, they can force closure of clinics, as in Texas.
In the face of this legislative offensive, the remaining clinics will face real challenges in covering their costs. However dedicated they may be, doctors will surely begin to ask themselves if there are not easier ways to serve the community, while also making a decent living.
In blue states, where the lawmakers don't answer to the right-to-life lobby, this campaign will not achieve much. But in the states discussed by Greenhouse, the effective right to a legal abortion faces its most serious threat since the Roe decision.
In the face of this legislative offensive, the remaining clinics will face real challenges in covering their costs. However dedicated they may be, doctors will surely begin to ask themselves if there are not easier ways to serve the community, while also making a decent living.
In blue states, where the lawmakers don't answer to the right-to-life lobby, this campaign will not achieve much. But in the states discussed by Greenhouse, the effective right to a legal abortion faces its most serious threat since the Roe decision.
31
This is an interesting set of events.
A number of years ago people in the Republican party who were supposed to be in the know feared that limitations of reproductive freedom for women if occurred at the local level rather than the federal level would be a death knoll for Reublicans.
So now it is happening.
Will young women and men awake to what is happening and respond?
One very promising thing is that young phsicians responding to these illegal restrictions are asking to be taught how to preform abortions.
A number of years ago people in the Republican party who were supposed to be in the know feared that limitations of reproductive freedom for women if occurred at the local level rather than the federal level would be a death knoll for Reublicans.
So now it is happening.
Will young women and men awake to what is happening and respond?
One very promising thing is that young phsicians responding to these illegal restrictions are asking to be taught how to preform abortions.
13
Pro-abortion folks call those of us who are anti-abortion all sorts of names. They claim we are religious zealots and are uneducated people. That is absolutely false. I have volunteered with these people and they are extremely intelligent and are not religious fanatics but people who are genuinely concerned for the welfare of the unborn child. They take care of the mother before birth and mother and child after birth. They feel all babies deserve to live and that life is precious. Many people today agree.
5
Though I disagree with your conclusion, I have recommended your note here. Unfortunately, that is not universally true. And do they care for the mother and child through the child's adulthood? If so, hats off to them. Thank you for speaking up, anyway; we here can be a mite pushy.
However, I suspect your preoccupation with the unborn is missing a whole lot about the completeness of a human life. With readily available birth control, it might not have to come to this, so I hope you at least work for access to that.
You may understand another's heart and experience, and sometimes you may be right, but I'd suspect you are not looking at the whole of other people's lives, and might be judging them from a limited exposure.
I realize I'm diverging from your argument, which I wish to respect. What bothers me is that I think to many people the fetus is "pure" and they seem to value that more than the life of the mother and other people who are also in need. Not all women want to be mothers, and not all sex is as protected as perhaps it should be. We could go into arguments about self-indulgence, but it seems to me even if you don't consider forced sex and incest, there needs to be an understanding of the whole life of the community that involves the mother and father as well as the fetus, which is more potential life than actual until it gets older.
Also, Planned Parenthood's main job is providing health care to the poor. Taking that away does not help babies or mothers.
However, I suspect your preoccupation with the unborn is missing a whole lot about the completeness of a human life. With readily available birth control, it might not have to come to this, so I hope you at least work for access to that.
You may understand another's heart and experience, and sometimes you may be right, but I'd suspect you are not looking at the whole of other people's lives, and might be judging them from a limited exposure.
I realize I'm diverging from your argument, which I wish to respect. What bothers me is that I think to many people the fetus is "pure" and they seem to value that more than the life of the mother and other people who are also in need. Not all women want to be mothers, and not all sex is as protected as perhaps it should be. We could go into arguments about self-indulgence, but it seems to me even if you don't consider forced sex and incest, there needs to be an understanding of the whole life of the community that involves the mother and father as well as the fetus, which is more potential life than actual until it gets older.
Also, Planned Parenthood's main job is providing health care to the poor. Taking that away does not help babies or mothers.
59
KMW...no one is 'pro-abortion'.
No one's out there rooting for abortions to happen.
But when regular contraception doesn't work or a pregnancy wasn't planned, some people think there should be a choice in the matter instead of a forced state pregnancy.
And the idea that men have a say in the legal control over women's bodies is nothing less than legislative and political rape.
Men should leave women alone and let women decide the matter until that time when men are willing and able to bear children.
The patriarchy of it all is disgusting...and for the record, I'm a man.
No one's out there rooting for abortions to happen.
But when regular contraception doesn't work or a pregnancy wasn't planned, some people think there should be a choice in the matter instead of a forced state pregnancy.
And the idea that men have a say in the legal control over women's bodies is nothing less than legislative and political rape.
Men should leave women alone and let women decide the matter until that time when men are willing and able to bear children.
The patriarchy of it all is disgusting...and for the record, I'm a man.
117
KMW, it's pretty clear that most "pro-lifers" are not for life, but only against abortion. I'm happy you know exceptions, but what do those same people think about capital punishment (one kind of state-sponsored murder) and starting wars (another kind of state-sponsored murder)? I'd bet many of them are Republicans who supported our invasions of Afghanistan and iraq, for instance, which have become sterling examples of state-sponsored mass murder. Please ask them about that.
15
In setting prescription requirements contrary to medical standards, are these governors and legislators guilty of practicing medicine without a license?
59
This is not difficult to understand. Reasonable people believe that a fetus is a person, a human being. That abortion is murder. You may disagree, but that is what they believe and they act accordingly to prevent murder.
5
So, Beefeater, why do they not prosecute the women who commit the murder and why do they sometimes allow "babies" to be "murdered" if they resulted from rape or incest? The "pro-life" people are mostly incoherent. That's because they mainly want to punish women for having "illicit" sex and yet not appear to be punishing them.
32
You apparently believe this, since you characterize that stance as "reasonable." I am also a reasonable person, and I don't think that a fetus is a person until I can feel him or her kick, at roughly the three-month mark. Once I felt my youngest daughter kick me hard, and I swatted her on her little behind, I could imagine her looking up at me and her thinking, "Just who the heck to do you think you are to swat me on the behind like that?" I think that is the moment that we both realized that there was a person in there, and that there was a person out here. But she was six months along at the time. A fetus the size of the nailbed of your pinky-finger doesn't have that kind of sentience. Regardless, whether or not a woman chooses to abort said nailbed-sized fetus is up to her, alone, and definitely not up to a person who, from birth, completely lacks a uterus.
11
And I believe that reasonable people believe exactly the opposite.
Therefore I leave you to your beliefs and I thank you for leaving me to mine.
Therefore I leave you to your beliefs and I thank you for leaving me to mine.
8
Why are men rarely prominent leaders in the fight for safe and legal abortion? I reserve the right to work together wife my wife to decide what to do about an unwanted pregnancy in private, without government getting in the way.
Your reproductive freedom is my reproductive freedom.
Your reproductive freedom is my reproductive freedom.
35
How can anyone kill their own flesh and blood is beyond words. What have we become as a nation when we turn a blind eye to abortion and not cringe at the fact that an innocent life is being destroyed. Where is our compassion and caring about the least among us? This is wrong and those of us who cherish life must not remain silent and not stop taking about the evils of abortion.
6
7.3 billion human beings and counting is also aborting the Earth's climate and resources, KMW.
Maybe a little extra contraception is exactly what Mother Earth needs to sustain life.
Maybe a little extra contraception is exactly what Mother Earth needs to sustain life.
52
KMW: You are living in a fantasy land. I hope you eat only artificial nutrients not created by killing innocent animals and plants.
19
"Where is our compassion and caring about the least among us? "
One would ask the same question of those who perpetually support cutting funding to better the lives of the least/poorest among us. That includes support vis-a-vis voting for the politicians that want to put billions of dollars into the military and nary a dime into support for poor families. One could say that is murder by proxy.
One would ask the same question of those who perpetually support cutting funding to better the lives of the least/poorest among us. That includes support vis-a-vis voting for the politicians that want to put billions of dollars into the military and nary a dime into support for poor families. One could say that is murder by proxy.
14
The real tragedy in all these efforts is that these legislators, with all the time on their hands, and all manners of creativity of Thomas Edison, do nothing to resolve the more imminent problems faced by their constituents.
What, you work 50 hours a week and still cant pay your rent? Let's make sure your gay neighbors cannot get married!
You cant afford day care for your young children while you work your second job? Don't worry, we'll make sure that unmarried lady next door cannot abort her pregnancy conceived from a rape assault.
In the meantime, while the poor and struggling middle class are sufficiently preoccupied with the gays, blacks, Muslims, immigrants, and all manners of culture wars, we will continue the wholesale transfer of wealth to the newly-permanent 1%.
These people are morally bankrupt.
So long, the America we used to know.
What, you work 50 hours a week and still cant pay your rent? Let's make sure your gay neighbors cannot get married!
You cant afford day care for your young children while you work your second job? Don't worry, we'll make sure that unmarried lady next door cannot abort her pregnancy conceived from a rape assault.
In the meantime, while the poor and struggling middle class are sufficiently preoccupied with the gays, blacks, Muslims, immigrants, and all manners of culture wars, we will continue the wholesale transfer of wealth to the newly-permanent 1%.
These people are morally bankrupt.
So long, the America we used to know.
150
Let's see what happens in these red states when the Zika virus starts hitting. Of course, most of these sames states send legislators to Washington who are holding up the funding to fight this danger.
23
At least one or two Republican members of the Florida congressional delegation have spoken in support of the Administration's request for Zika funds. But I suspect that the CDS's announcement that Zika causes birth defects will not be taken seriously until local transmission shows up in the US and women start seeking abortions that are no longer available.
I'd like to eavesdrop on executives in Florida's tourism industries discussing the odds of Zika panic.
I'd like to eavesdrop on executives in Florida's tourism industries discussing the odds of Zika panic.
42
If the United States follows its current trend, areas that are at risk for the Zika virus transmission won't get funding for pesticides, women will lose funding for birth control, those women who get bitten by mosquitoes that carry the Zika virus won't be able to get abortions, there will be no funding for special education should those microencephalitic kids live long enough to go to school, and everyone will blame the mothers for having gotten pregnant in the first place, whether they are married or not.
17
And good GOP's will avert their faces so that they don't have to see the very deformed victims of Zika.
2
It is good to see that there are still people in our country defending the life of the unborn. Abortion is a grisly act and affects the least defenseless among us - the baby in the mother's womb. If you have ever viewed an ultrasound, you will see the various stages of the baby's development. You cannot deny that this is a life and must be protected. I guess I will be getting out my checkbook and sending a donation to my pro-life group in Boston. I am thinking of the babies who have yet to be born.
5
You must have your blinders on. You don't notice that any of the already born around you are struggling? You don't think the mother is defenceless in the face of your attacks?
Maybe you're against the death sentence, senseless wars, guns all over the place?
Climate change? About to put the lives of billions at risk? Oh no, reality doesn't exist, but that precious precious embryo.
sigh ...
Maybe you're against the death sentence, senseless wars, guns all over the place?
Climate change? About to put the lives of billions at risk? Oh no, reality doesn't exist, but that precious precious embryo.
sigh ...
83
Better you should send a check to fund sound nutrition for the babies already born. Funny how the ones who scream the loudest about protecting the unborn are strangely silent about their fate once the become born.
130
KMW, I have serious doubt that any of these so-called "pro-life" groups are actually for life. They are only against abortion. After the birth, they don't give a bat----. If I'm wrong, show me their programs to assist poor families with food, rent, good baby care, and so forth.
35
Abortion is the most controversial issue in the U.S., ahead of terrorism, global warming and illiteracy. What is wrong with us?
34
We are idiots!
10
What's wrong with us is religious zealotry imposing on others.
17
Abortion is the ideal hot button issue for conservative politicians. It's a dream come true. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
These people NEVER want abortion to disappear! They would be at a complete loss if it did.
These people NEVER want abortion to disappear! They would be at a complete loss if it did.
4
I'll have more respect for what the "Pro-Life" movement says against abortion when they come out equally as strongly against capital punishment & unnecessary warfare. Unnecessary war is the ethical equivalent of murder, but I didn't hear a peep from most of them in 2003, or maybe it was just drowned out by all the cheering.
83
The states with the most restrictions to abortion and family planning are also the states with the most Mosquitos. The Zika virus has the potential to effects thousands...hopefully these mysogenistic legislatures will learn a valuable lesson that women's health is personal, private and none of their business...before an outbreak reeks havoc on people's lives.. Very sad. Read this month's Rolling Stone. It will open your eyes.
26
Zika is now in 30 states in the US.
There is no cure.
There is no vaccine.
There has been no response from the Republicans.
There is no cure.
There is no vaccine.
There has been no response from the Republicans.
37
Deirdre Diamint: You are, in a sense, wrong. Zika has the potential to affect millions, literally millions. Not only in the U.S.; it's a hemispheric catastrophe in the making.
6
There is also little risk rosa - do not get swept up in the hysteria.
I think some of the responders here are a bit harsh on both sides. There are many people who have a generally religious objection to abortion, but the problem is that they are unwilling to acknowledge that it is the law of the land. Its like playing a game and the loser insisting the game is not over since they have not won yet (almost a Future Shock kind of moment).
This sniping at abortion through convoluted logic and bizarre statutes as Greenhouse points out is both unseemly and counterproductive. As a citizen of one of these states I respect different opinions, but I don't understand how people who claim to want to "save" fetuses can also restrict women's access to reproductive services that would eliminate the need for many abortions and close the only clinics giving mammograms and other women's health procedures.
What is the carnage caused by the loss of these clinics to living women because various ovarian & breast cancers are not detected when they could be effectively fought? How many abortions happened because women couldn't get birth control? The Colorado experiment suggests the best way to cut down on abortion is to provide effective and free birth control. Surely it is the height of hypocrisy that these demagogues are hurting so many innocent bystanders!
This sniping at abortion through convoluted logic and bizarre statutes as Greenhouse points out is both unseemly and counterproductive. As a citizen of one of these states I respect different opinions, but I don't understand how people who claim to want to "save" fetuses can also restrict women's access to reproductive services that would eliminate the need for many abortions and close the only clinics giving mammograms and other women's health procedures.
What is the carnage caused by the loss of these clinics to living women because various ovarian & breast cancers are not detected when they could be effectively fought? How many abortions happened because women couldn't get birth control? The Colorado experiment suggests the best way to cut down on abortion is to provide effective and free birth control. Surely it is the height of hypocrisy that these demagogues are hurting so many innocent bystanders!
461
Thanks. Don't know why this comment is being ignored.
5
You are from Texas.
Send an e-mail of this article to your Representative and Senator.
Suggest that they read the "Comments" section.
Let us know what they have to say.
Send an e-mail of this article to your Representative and Senator.
Suggest that they read the "Comments" section.
Let us know what they have to say.
4
Don't forget that a lot of these people also oppose any type of contraception. That's one reason the "abstinence only" sex "education" programs have been able to proliferate. (Another is, of course, the absurd conviction that if you don't tell young people how to avoid unwanted side effects of sexual activity, they won't indulge in any such activity.)
1
I imagine that making the decision to have an abortion has to be as difficult a choice as any woman could ever have to make. The labels "pro life" and "pro choice," though, are truly unfortunate, as those women who choose to have an abortion also value life, and must have experienced a great deal of anguish reaching that conclusion. To equate "pro choice" as "pro abortion" is absurd.
49
Right, and to equate anti-abortion with "pro-life" is yielding to insidious propaganda.
10
If you're against abortion, the answer is simple....don't have one. But for anti abortion zealots to dictate how one is to live their life is just plain wrong. The GOP says it wants "less government" but has no problem dictating that abortion should be illegal. These misogynists are hypocrites. When was the last time one of them offered to care for an unwanted child? These are the same people that want to deny child health care, housing, education, etc. These are the same hypocrites that have no problem war-mongering. There is no "sanctity of life" despite what these lying self righteous hypocrites say.
104
I agree with you 100%. Actually, though, many conservatives--social, religious conservatives--do care for unwanted children. It's the least they can do.
1
But your point is moot because abortion is killing innocent children.
2
Zika is here. There will be children born of this virus. The states most greatly impacted will be the southern states. It is already in 30 states. The women of these states need to know that they are going to be on their own.
The very people who are demanding that abortion be criminalized are going to be the same people who will do nothing to stop Zika nor help nurse a Zika child for life.
"Hypocrites"? Yes. And stupid. This will be a disaster.
The very people who are demanding that abortion be criminalized are going to be the same people who will do nothing to stop Zika nor help nurse a Zika child for life.
"Hypocrites"? Yes. And stupid. This will be a disaster.
7
The map shows the basic midwest/southern alliance against the NE and left coast.
And look at Kansas! Whoo! I think I'd be afraid to drive through Kansas at this point.
And look at Kansas! Whoo! I think I'd be afraid to drive through Kansas at this point.
17
When it comes to abortion what any politician, church, or civic authority has to say about it will not alter my view, my rights and my actions ... that there be only two people involved: the doctor/nurse practitioner and the woman. Period.
These religious zealots who insist on unfettered conception regardless of conditions and circumstances invariably and routinely ignore the fate of the unwanted child committed to a life bound in shallows and miseries absent vital necessities.
These religious zealots who insist on unfettered conception regardless of conditions and circumstances invariably and routinely ignore the fate of the unwanted child committed to a life bound in shallows and miseries absent vital necessities.
276
Never fear John. The religious zealots have agreed to raise the unwanted children. After all, it is part of their religious purpose to take in the unwanted. They are even willing to cut taxes to eliminate foster parenting provided by the state. Right?
7
John,
I thought Doctors took a pledge never to do harm to humans.
You were once a fetus, Linda Greenhouse was once a fetus, the doctor
who may carry out the abortion or provide the abortificants was once a fetus,
all 8 of the Supreme Court Judges were fetuses, everyone on the planet
was once a fetus. Every fetus is just as human as anyone else.
By what right, save the bigotry of Ageism does anyone have a right to abort
a healthy fetus in her healthy body.
You know and I know and everyone who reads the New York Times knows,
as do you LInda, that when an abortion takes place a youngest human dies.
We live in a Society that sends young men and women off to war to die,
allow rifles/pistols that fire more shots in two seconds than anyone has fingers,
ignores the homeless and just wishes the poor would die far sooner than later.
So if you want to add un-restriced abortions to one of society's accepted ills -
I will not, I will stand like my great-great-great grandfather against any
evils done to the most helpless of our fellow humans. [ A painting of him is
in the icon in the upper left. ]
You are wrong about those who oppose abortion, many of them volunteer to help
un-wed mothers, poor mothers who need medical care, help to raise their children,
work and volunteer at facilities that take care of abandoned children with severe disabilities.
I thought Doctors took a pledge never to do harm to humans.
You were once a fetus, Linda Greenhouse was once a fetus, the doctor
who may carry out the abortion or provide the abortificants was once a fetus,
all 8 of the Supreme Court Judges were fetuses, everyone on the planet
was once a fetus. Every fetus is just as human as anyone else.
By what right, save the bigotry of Ageism does anyone have a right to abort
a healthy fetus in her healthy body.
You know and I know and everyone who reads the New York Times knows,
as do you LInda, that when an abortion takes place a youngest human dies.
We live in a Society that sends young men and women off to war to die,
allow rifles/pistols that fire more shots in two seconds than anyone has fingers,
ignores the homeless and just wishes the poor would die far sooner than later.
So if you want to add un-restriced abortions to one of society's accepted ills -
I will not, I will stand like my great-great-great grandfather against any
evils done to the most helpless of our fellow humans. [ A painting of him is
in the icon in the upper left. ]
You are wrong about those who oppose abortion, many of them volunteer to help
un-wed mothers, poor mothers who need medical care, help to raise their children,
work and volunteer at facilities that take care of abandoned children with severe disabilities.
2
When you say that your actions will not be altered, is abortion legal in Mexico? If it is not, then your actions could be altered; unless, of course, you have the financial means to travel to where abortion is legal.
1
As an LGBTQ person, I highly approve of the negative reaction that North Carolina has been experiencing from the business community and celebrities. But as a woman, I wonder why abortion restrictions don't face the same level of outrage. They are a direct challenge to the right of anyone who can get pregnant to have control over their own body and life.
429
Thank you. I've also wondered why there is a difference in the response. If corporations and entertainers threatened to boycott states that pass laws restricting women's access to health care as well, the map might look different. The NYT should explore this question.
49
Les. the NYTimes will not. It never has, it never will.
2
K, the reason is that gay rights have become mainstream, and discrimination against gays, whether by the government or private actors, is no longer fashionable.
In contrast, abortion is still seem as shameful and wrong. Women who have or seek to have an abortion are ostracized, chided, and, often, outcast. That's why women are often secretive about having abortions, and do not discuss it. If we instead were to treat abortion as a medical procedure - which it is - and remove the stigma, I believe states would have a much harder time restricting abortion rights. We don't see states restricting a man's right to a vasectomy or protesters outside a clinic that performs vasectomies.
In contrast, abortion is still seem as shameful and wrong. Women who have or seek to have an abortion are ostracized, chided, and, often, outcast. That's why women are often secretive about having abortions, and do not discuss it. If we instead were to treat abortion as a medical procedure - which it is - and remove the stigma, I believe states would have a much harder time restricting abortion rights. We don't see states restricting a man's right to a vasectomy or protesters outside a clinic that performs vasectomies.
This is so disturbing on several levels: politicians posing as medical professionals; legislation written around women's bodies; disregard for born children and for women, but an obsession with fetuses and embryos; a state-by-state assault on Roe v. Wade.
All people, everywhere, deserve objective medical care and legal privacy in the most personal parts of our bodies and lives.
All people, everywhere, deserve objective medical care and legal privacy in the most personal parts of our bodies and lives.
385
Remember, women didn't get the vote until 1920. The world is full of self appointed moral authorities..........and world progress is full of examples of human progress resulting from the 'over throw' of self appointed moral authorities.
......and, oh, by the way, self appointed moral authorities usually rely on a self imagined invisible assistant that is either mute or only talks to them. It helps to back them up with imagined answers when questioned about their veracity of their "authority"............or, at least it has up until now.
......and, oh, by the way, self appointed moral authorities usually rely on a self imagined invisible assistant that is either mute or only talks to them. It helps to back them up with imagined answers when questioned about their veracity of their "authority"............or, at least it has up until now.
The National Review article mentioned by Greenhouse is titled "Pence Mockery Syndrome." Note the initials. More misogynistic conservative contempt.
47
18 states prohibit telemedicine by stipulating that the prescribing physician be in the presence of the patient.
https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/spibs/spib_MA.pdf
https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/spibs/spib_MA.pdf
7
Abortion restrictions are their own "retreat to bigotry".
What a shame that the CEOs who are now moving their patronage from those states legislating gay discrimination never thought it necessary to lift a finger when women's rights were being abridged.
What a shame that the CEOs who are now moving their patronage from those states legislating gay discrimination never thought it necessary to lift a finger when women's rights were being abridged.
76
Dear Notagirlanymore,
Yesterday, April 12, 2016, was "Equal Pay Day".
The women in this country had to work all last year AND up to April 12th of THIS year to match the income that men had received by Dec. 31, 2015.
That's 4 extra months of work for the same job.
That's why the CEO's were also behind the stopping of the Equal Right's Amendment. They never wanted it ratified. If it had been then they would have had to pay equal pay for equal work.
Add up the money they have swiped over the decades.... at least 4 months earnings for every women they employed.
The LGBT community is a small sliver of the U.S. population.
Women are over 51%.
That's a lot of moola.... and it still goes on.
Yesterday, April 12, 2016, was "Equal Pay Day".
The women in this country had to work all last year AND up to April 12th of THIS year to match the income that men had received by Dec. 31, 2015.
That's 4 extra months of work for the same job.
That's why the CEO's were also behind the stopping of the Equal Right's Amendment. They never wanted it ratified. If it had been then they would have had to pay equal pay for equal work.
Add up the money they have swiped over the decades.... at least 4 months earnings for every women they employed.
The LGBT community is a small sliver of the U.S. population.
Women are over 51%.
That's a lot of moola.... and it still goes on.
15
Don't forget to show California as the state where Reagan, as governor, signed the most liberal of all abortion bills way back in 1967. California went from having 518 legal abortions a year to over 100,000 a year for the rest of his reign. Soon, many states were following California's lead. Whether you are for or against abortion, the Republicans have to take a lot of ownership of abortions in America.
17
As usual Linda, a thorough, fact-based piece on the scam the GOP is endorsing in terms of obtaining a legal, safe abortion. The obstructionism is bad enough, but the hypocritical nature of the attacks, as if they REALLY did care about the health of the woman, is pathetic. If these right-wing hacks did care about women, they would endorse and advocate for free birth control, regular health care and safe, rare abortions as a last resort. But no, they really only care about their obsession with controlling and shaming women for having...wait for it...SEX and...maybe even enjoying it.
This is why we need a ninth Supreme Court justice, and why, as the legitimately elected President, Mr. Obama should be able to choose his appointee. The Republicans have again and again proven themselves to not be trustworthy, and not fit to lead this country. Furthermore, the goons on the other side running for President are not capable of selecting Justices. This is why, as democrats, we need to stick together and support the eventual democratic nominee. Either one would make an excellent President and far better than anyone the GOP could muster.
This is why we need a ninth Supreme Court justice, and why, as the legitimately elected President, Mr. Obama should be able to choose his appointee. The Republicans have again and again proven themselves to not be trustworthy, and not fit to lead this country. Furthermore, the goons on the other side running for President are not capable of selecting Justices. This is why, as democrats, we need to stick together and support the eventual democratic nominee. Either one would make an excellent President and far better than anyone the GOP could muster.
50
With real problems facing the nation, all of these Republicans are devoting their resources into sticking the force of government and their personal religious beliefs into doctor's offices and women's bodies. We do not live in a theocracy. These ridiculous machinations are specifically designed to deprive women of their constitutionally protected privacy rights.
And they say they're doing this for women's health? What a whopping lie. The point is to deny safe access. Back to the back allies and the coat hangers.
And how much is it costing these states to pay for the legal counsel to defend all of these disingenuous laws? What a waste of taxpayer-financed resources.
You want to decrease abortions? How about increasing birth control availability and accurate sex ed in schools -- Oh, wait, the anti-abortion crowd is opposed to that too.
I truly can't understand how they keep getting elected.
And they say they're doing this for women's health? What a whopping lie. The point is to deny safe access. Back to the back allies and the coat hangers.
And how much is it costing these states to pay for the legal counsel to defend all of these disingenuous laws? What a waste of taxpayer-financed resources.
You want to decrease abortions? How about increasing birth control availability and accurate sex ed in schools -- Oh, wait, the anti-abortion crowd is opposed to that too.
I truly can't understand how they keep getting elected.
209
They keep getting elected because there is no fear more widespread than of independent women.
7
It is the circus part of "bread and circus" or the urgent "look over there" while the pickpocket does his work. Unfortunately, as noted elsewhere, the "distraction" actually results in untold suffering for women, children, our society.
1
Shameless gerrymandering explains a good bit of it, which is why purple states like NC, Florida and Virginia have state legislatures disproportionately crammed with right-wing primitives.
2
Considering how many women, across the country, support republicans -- even rabid anti-abortionists like Cruz and Kasich -- I am interested in why you expected the abortion map to be limited to the old south ?
13
It will be interesting to see what effect, if any, the invasion of the Zika virus will have on the religious entities (both laymen and clergy) who sit on boards and legislatures across the country. The virus is coming, they tell us, and with it, scores of babies afflicted with microcephaly, which causes any or all of the following birth defects:
- Seizures
- Developmental delay, such as problems with speech or other developmental milestones (like sitting, standing, and walking)
- Intellectual disability (decreased ability to learn and function in daily life)
- Problems with movement and balance
- Feeding problems, such as difficulty swallowing
- Hearing loss
- Vision problems
I wonder if, faced with an unknown number of such sadly afflicted infants, the states who now are claiming to be against abortion for any reason may have different views.
- Seizures
- Developmental delay, such as problems with speech or other developmental milestones (like sitting, standing, and walking)
- Intellectual disability (decreased ability to learn and function in daily life)
- Problems with movement and balance
- Feeding problems, such as difficulty swallowing
- Hearing loss
- Vision problems
I wonder if, faced with an unknown number of such sadly afflicted infants, the states who now are claiming to be against abortion for any reason may have different views.
20
Since most of the pro-forced birthers are against abortion for any reason, including rape, incest and fetal abnormality, I see no reason why they'd allow abortion if the fetus had a strong chance of developing serious fetal abnormalities with the Zika virus either. They're not reasonable people making decisions based on reason, science or concern for the child's quality of life. Logic and humaneness don't apply here; myopic, simple-minded thinking does.
48
The Catholic Church, at least, has signaled to bishops and priests within the most severely affected communities (all of which are heavily Catholic regions) that the normal ban on and disapproval of contraception should be lifted - or at least not emphasized or focused upon. Their rationale is that abortion is unequivocally worse than contraception, so if avoiding encephalitis caused by Zika can result in no need for an abortion, thanks to contraception, that is far more preferable.
2
I suppose now since the CDC is confirming the effects of the Zika virus, this will only provide another excuse to keep abortion "On demand" legal, regardless if a woman actually contracts the virus or not....
1
As an Arizonan, I would never have voted for Ducey. But your account of his actions is contrary to what has been reported in in-state newspapers. Arizoma reporters, who interviewed Ducey, noted that he passed the RU4886 bill on March 31 and the FDA didn't change its practices until the next day. Ducey has repeatedly stated that he would never have signed the bill on the 31st if he knew what was coming on the 1st. He has also effectively admitted that the law he signed should be repealed. Ducey is right wing. But he's not a total kook. And the fact that Arizona reporters believe what he says strongly suggests that your attack is unfounded.
3
The FDA announced the change on March 30th. There are multiple news reports giving March 31st as the date the governor signed the bill. Unless he routinely waits 24 hours between signing a bill and announcing it to the press, he knew about the FDA change and went ahead anyway.
10
S -- You're a great fact checker. My mistake. Ducey signed on Mar. 28
In what other context has the Government dictated to health care providers how they are to provide healthcare not to enhance access to quality medical care, but to obstruct it? Sadly, there always has been and there always will be unwanted pregnancies, including those resulting from rape and incest, and those causing medical complications threatening the life of the woman or her unborn child. In the first trimester, how is it so difficult to leave the care needed by the woman to health care providers? Certainly, those health care providers should be subject to the same regulations as any other health care providers, for example, treating patients for acute and chronic illnesses and diseases. But why should women needing health care in the first trimester of their pregnancies encounter any governmental impediments to their access to such health care, including abortions? And, for those who want to judge these women and effectively punish and condemn them for getting pregnant, even under circumstances of rape, incest, or life-threatening medical complications, get off the throne and place God whose job you seem awfully anxious to assume in His name do the judging.
34
This is not about healthcare. It is about life and morality. People are the agents of God and we are commanded by God to obey His law. God has already judged whether taking a human life is wrong; therefore, we don't need for God to tell us something we already know.
The men who are passing these laws want to use women sexually and then allow themselves and others of their ilk to walk away from all responsibility, leaving women forced to have their babies. This has nothing to do with reverence for life and everything to do with controlling women. It's sick!!
120
You don't need laws to use women sexually, and the lack of laws will not keep men from walking away from their responsibilities. Both men and women should be held responsible. Do you really think men are making laws to protect the unborn so that they can use women sexually? That's absurd. The sickness is the systematic destruction of defenseless human life.
I'm so tired of Republicans.
I'm so tired of priests.
I'm so tired of "Doctor Congress".
I'm tired of lies, deception, sham, obstruction, faux laws, a Congress obsessed with female anatomy, creepy men who swear to 'punish' women for a legal act, religious wacks that are so unlearned that they haven't a clue that Jesus never said a word about contraception, abortion, or pregnancy.... even though all three were around in his day, which in my book doesn't make him as universal or small 'c' catholic as his religion proposes him to be...
My point? Every person needs to check right now that they are registered to vote. Don't leave it for July or October.
Part and parcel of this war on women is the war on registered voters.
The Republicans are passing as many 'laws' on that as they are against the 51% of this nation's civilians.
Check now to see if you are still on the books.
Don't assume that you are.
There's a name for men like these....
Oh, yes, I can write it...
They are called "destroyers".
I'm so tired of priests.
I'm so tired of "Doctor Congress".
I'm tired of lies, deception, sham, obstruction, faux laws, a Congress obsessed with female anatomy, creepy men who swear to 'punish' women for a legal act, religious wacks that are so unlearned that they haven't a clue that Jesus never said a word about contraception, abortion, or pregnancy.... even though all three were around in his day, which in my book doesn't make him as universal or small 'c' catholic as his religion proposes him to be...
My point? Every person needs to check right now that they are registered to vote. Don't leave it for July or October.
Part and parcel of this war on women is the war on registered voters.
The Republicans are passing as many 'laws' on that as they are against the 51% of this nation's civilians.
Check now to see if you are still on the books.
Don't assume that you are.
There's a name for men like these....
Oh, yes, I can write it...
They are called "destroyers".
183
Linda Greenhouse: The following are the states that never ratified the Equal Rights Amendment.
Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia
Illinois
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Utah
Virginia
Does that list match-up with your map?
The ERA only needs 3 more states to be ratified.
Yes, I know that Reagan said it was all over, that women in this country could never be equal under the law, that they would have to be satisfied with the "Jane Crow" laws called "The Titles"....
But, you know, I don't think that Ronald Reagan was god, nor that what he had to say was written in stone...
So I say: All states on that list: Pass the Equal Rights Amendment NOW and let the Supreme Court rule on the legality.
After all, isn't that the reasoning that Arizona's Gov is saying? "Some changes may need to be made in a later bill."
Well, all right!
Pass the ERA, Gov, ratify it... we'll let the SCOTUS figure it all out later!
Enough of this creepiness.
Republicans. How foul.
Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia
Illinois
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Utah
Virginia
Does that list match-up with your map?
The ERA only needs 3 more states to be ratified.
Yes, I know that Reagan said it was all over, that women in this country could never be equal under the law, that they would have to be satisfied with the "Jane Crow" laws called "The Titles"....
But, you know, I don't think that Ronald Reagan was god, nor that what he had to say was written in stone...
So I say: All states on that list: Pass the Equal Rights Amendment NOW and let the Supreme Court rule on the legality.
After all, isn't that the reasoning that Arizona's Gov is saying? "Some changes may need to be made in a later bill."
Well, all right!
Pass the ERA, Gov, ratify it... we'll let the SCOTUS figure it all out later!
Enough of this creepiness.
Republicans. How foul.
58
Now we just need a new anthem like Loretta Lynn's "The Pill" about letting women control their bodies, and not men. This country has moved backwards so much.
To all Republicans who ever want women to vote Republican again - listen to Loretta Lynn - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DcdONaKSQM&nohtml5=False :
But all I've seen of this old world
Is a bed and a doctor bill
I'm tearin' down your brooder house
'Cause now I've got the pill
All these years I've stayed at home
While you had all your fun
And every year that's gone by
Another babys come
There's a gonna be some changes made
Right here on nursery hill
You've set this chicken your last time
'Cause now I've got the pill
It is getting old to hear about hundreds of anti-abortion bills now, most of them very anti medicine and anti science but based on medieval religion. With the Zika virus in this country and spreading, it is more critical than ever for women to be able to control their access to both contraceptives and abortion rights.
To all Republicans who ever want women to vote Republican again - listen to Loretta Lynn - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DcdONaKSQM&nohtml5=False :
But all I've seen of this old world
Is a bed and a doctor bill
I'm tearin' down your brooder house
'Cause now I've got the pill
All these years I've stayed at home
While you had all your fun
And every year that's gone by
Another babys come
There's a gonna be some changes made
Right here on nursery hill
You've set this chicken your last time
'Cause now I've got the pill
It is getting old to hear about hundreds of anti-abortion bills now, most of them very anti medicine and anti science but based on medieval religion. With the Zika virus in this country and spreading, it is more critical than ever for women to be able to control their access to both contraceptives and abortion rights.
60
How is it that Governors Ducey and Herbert, neither of whom have medical training or license, can make medical decisions contrary to the F.D.A. and medical professionals? If Gov. Pence's intent is "not to jail women who miscarry", what then will be the consequences for ignoring the bill he signed? Even Donald Trump knew there had to be a next step. Btw, what are men to do with their "unused" semen? Funeral directors in Indiana could become billionaires!
53
Nancy, I think a biology lesson is needed here to get you up to speed on how people come to exist. Semen is used to fertilize the egg, which then forms into an embryo - the first stage of human life. Semen is not a human life, and neither is the egg. The resulting beautiful process of combining the two is why you and I are both alive today. You were once and embryo and once a fetus. If someone snuffed your life out at that beautiful stage, your life would have been taken away from you. It just easier to take a life when you don't have to look that person in the eye and when for the sake of unbridled liberty, it is somehow lawful.
Just what do you mean when you use the word abortion? I'll tell you: abortion by definition is the death or termination of life. Now let that sink in to your intellectual dishonesty.
4
Robert, please TRY to use factual information. An embryo or a fetus is NOT a person. It is not viable outside the womb before at least 23 weeks. Here are some definitions to refresh your poor memory:
Dictionary.com:
The deliberate termination of a pregnancy, usually before the embryo or fetus is capable of independent life. In medical contexts, this procedure is called an induced abortion and is distinguished from a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or stillbirth.
Merriam-Webster:
the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as
a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage
b : induced expulsion of a human fetus
c : expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy — compare
Ant, by the way...you are not a woman, so stay out of it. No one is controlling your body.
Dictionary.com:
The deliberate termination of a pregnancy, usually before the embryo or fetus is capable of independent life. In medical contexts, this procedure is called an induced abortion and is distinguished from a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or stillbirth.
Merriam-Webster:
the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as
a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage
b : induced expulsion of a human fetus
c : expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy — compare
Ant, by the way...you are not a woman, so stay out of it. No one is controlling your body.
138
When you can carry a child then you can have an opinion.
78
Think abortion is murder? Don't get one.
16
It's amazing that the author fails to understand that a large number of Americans believe abortion is immoral. Yes, abortion is the law of the land, but that does not make it moral anymore than slavery was when it was lawful.
24
Then they don't have to have one.
There. All fixed.
There. All fixed.
71
Forcing a woman to have a baby that she doesn't want or can't afford to raise, just because she and a man made a mistake, when she could have terminated the pregnancy before the fetus became a viable human, is immoral. And it doesn't make sense.
319
To the guy who compared abortion to slavery:
Really, I wouldn't have gone there, but as you did, forcing a woman to have a baby to satisfy other people's religious beliefs (in a country that recognizes separation of church and state no less) is tantamount to the government taking possession of a woman's uterus against her will; it is forcing a woman against her will to give up her blood, nutrients, tissue, etc., and to endure childbirth, and the inherent serious risks of pregnancy and childbirth, all against her will. So the government is taking ownership of a woman's body for a period of time, against her will, harming her. I wouldn't be making slavery comparisons if you're looking to justify the disingenuous machinations of the anti-abortion crowd catalogued in Ms. Greenhouse's article.
Really, I wouldn't have gone there, but as you did, forcing a woman to have a baby to satisfy other people's religious beliefs (in a country that recognizes separation of church and state no less) is tantamount to the government taking possession of a woman's uterus against her will; it is forcing a woman against her will to give up her blood, nutrients, tissue, etc., and to endure childbirth, and the inherent serious risks of pregnancy and childbirth, all against her will. So the government is taking ownership of a woman's body for a period of time, against her will, harming her. I wouldn't be making slavery comparisons if you're looking to justify the disingenuous machinations of the anti-abortion crowd catalogued in Ms. Greenhouse's article.
158
Thanks for an insightful article. I have one quibble, though. Please do not refer to anti-abortion adherents as "pro-life" ("As for the pro-life side..."). I find this infuriating. I don't know what this term means, except in a marketing context. They are opposed to the procedure known as an "abortion" and they should be referred to as such; i.e. "anti-abortion".
302
I find the term "pro-forced birth" to be quite descriptive!
40
Given that other lives don't matter much to them, you are correct. Death penalty, guns, militarism, stand your ground, not to mention the poor children and their families once they've emerged from the womb: then they're "takers" unless born to privilege. And the privileged can afford travel to legal abortions.
24
You are either pro-life or pro abortion. There is no middle ground. It is amusing when abortion folks call those of us who are pro life as anti choice or forced birthers. We are pro life and do not deny this fact.
1
As noted in the article, all of these moves backwards to the 19th century are being led by GOP controlled statehouses and legislatures. It's crucial to vote in EVERY election!
155
The ten states with the most restrictions on abortion are listed in this interesting piece. All of them receive a lot more of my tax money (i.e. Federal money) than they send in taxes. The average ratio is almost 3 to 1. We should stop spending Federal money in those states. If I pay taxes I would be happier if the Federal expenditures were in my community where I would benefit more.
Let's cut the takers off!
To see other great ideas, YouTube Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec). Thank you. [email protected]
Let's cut the takers off!
To see other great ideas, YouTube Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec). Thank you. [email protected]
43
California's political and social ideals is what has led to more money being sent to these states you wish to cut off as well as contributing to California's own budget woes, and its failing pension system with a trillion dollars in debt.
Besides, your state is sucking the nation's natural resources dry. California uses more than two times the energy it produces, and a lot of those natural resources are in the states you wish to disown. CA also consumes more water than it can supply for its people. I think you should step back and consider that California can't go it alone and that we are a nation united for a lot of reasons.
But back to the issue at hand, California is in the top 5 states for extinguishing the lives of the unborn, which is hardly a benefit or an example for the rest of the nation. California also leads the nation in homelessness and child neglect, and poor schools, so we can see where the little people stack up in your state.
Besides, your state is sucking the nation's natural resources dry. California uses more than two times the energy it produces, and a lot of those natural resources are in the states you wish to disown. CA also consumes more water than it can supply for its people. I think you should step back and consider that California can't go it alone and that we are a nation united for a lot of reasons.
But back to the issue at hand, California is in the top 5 states for extinguishing the lives of the unborn, which is hardly a benefit or an example for the rest of the nation. California also leads the nation in homelessness and child neglect, and poor schools, so we can see where the little people stack up in your state.
Liberty is a good thing. And morality is a good thing. For humankind to benefit, there must be a balance between both liberty and morality.
It is the desire of some to preserve morality by preventing the continual genocide of the unborn. It is the desire of others to obtain liberty at all costs by contending that woman should be able to destroy a viable human at will.
It is misplaced to designate those who take the side of those aspiring to come into our world as bigots. These "Confederates" are not trying to take away rights but rather preserve the rights of those who cannot defend themselves.
I understand that having rights is a good thing but in the case of abortion, Liberty is eating her own children.
It is the desire of some to preserve morality by preventing the continual genocide of the unborn. It is the desire of others to obtain liberty at all costs by contending that woman should be able to destroy a viable human at will.
It is misplaced to designate those who take the side of those aspiring to come into our world as bigots. These "Confederates" are not trying to take away rights but rather preserve the rights of those who cannot defend themselves.
I understand that having rights is a good thing but in the case of abortion, Liberty is eating her own children.
4
Actually, the more basic question is who is to decide such matters, and on what basis? Or to put it another way, how does one get to decide such a matter on behalf of someone else (a woman)) who does not share that view?
41
I respect your opinion fully, because you were being honest about your belief... That you think abortions are immoral and therefore shouldn't be allowed. However, that's exactly what many pro-life arguments go out of their way to avoid saying, because they realize abortion is legal in this country thanks to Roe vs Wade. All of this legislation that claims to protect women's health is a smokescreen to prevent women from exercising their rights, and those who disingenuously claim otherwise aren't acting with much moral character.
19
Wrong. Whether a fetus is the same as a child is not self evident, but is very much in dispute.
If you think that our humanity comes from our capacity for consciousness, then a fetus is not yet a person, for the same reason that a brain-dead body is no longer a person. I'm an organ donor, which means that once my brain stops functioning, I am no longer a person, whether or not my DNA is human, and whether or not my heart is beating. When they pull the plug and take my organs, will this be murder? I don't think so.
So stop question begging and try to understand that we do NOT say it's OK to kill children. We don't consider fetuses to be children, for a long list of reasons (mine is one of many) which you should try to address if you want to convince anybody, of anything.
If you think that our humanity comes from our capacity for consciousness, then a fetus is not yet a person, for the same reason that a brain-dead body is no longer a person. I'm an organ donor, which means that once my brain stops functioning, I am no longer a person, whether or not my DNA is human, and whether or not my heart is beating. When they pull the plug and take my organs, will this be murder? I don't think so.
So stop question begging and try to understand that we do NOT say it's OK to kill children. We don't consider fetuses to be children, for a long list of reasons (mine is one of many) which you should try to address if you want to convince anybody, of anything.
18
Thanks for the update. Perhaps the apparent apathy is related to what you called the " dreary drumbeat of bad news," the relentless onslaught of proposed laws and regulations focused on removing control over pregnancy from women. Legislatures which a cannot seem to do anything else can manage to be oppressive.
118
Yes, there is a "relentless onslaught of proposed laws and regulations focused on removing control over pregnancy from women". These laws recognize that an unborn baby has a right to life. They are not not dreary; rather, they echo a resounding drumbeat.
3
A grape-sized fetus is not a baby.
46
If the unborn fetus has a right to life, we won't the folks who support forced motherhood agree to pass legislation that guarantees that the child has food, clothing, education and a place to live? Quality of life matters, too.
3
Technically, Ms. Greenhouse, you are correct - restrictions on abortion don't correspond with the old confederacy, in a strict geographic sense. But in so many ways, the confederate mentality has so metastasized far and wide around the nation's body politic that one can wonder which side won the civil war.
188
As a disgusted Indiana resident, I'm trusting Governor Pence will be deploying the National Guard to defend women from mosquitoes carrying the Zika virus since he will prosecute any woman wanting to abort a microcephalic fetus, and he sure as heck won't be paying for social services to assist families.
75
The South, of course, but only in a sense. It suited Northern capitalists, and for no other reason. Otherwise the South, with all its nobel pretenses, would have been ground into the dust.
2
There's also 150 years of migration from the South that carried the mindset elsewhere.