Another Douthat plea for bright line boundaries with the Catholic Church's leaders as the referees. Yet, what is holding in the NFL, what is a charge in the NBA, what is a strike in MLB? Those are a matter of judgement by those in charge not a matter of black and white. Yes, people will complain about those judgement calls as does Douthat of the Jesuit's latest letter. Yet, life will continue to evolve, the Church hopefully will continue to live its pastoral duty of serving its faithful as they are and the community will be required to think not necessarily obey blindly to dictates of a past era. Quite messy, of course, but now a Church that clearly accepts its humanity and refuses to cut itself off from large portions of its community.
16
Ross,
With all due respect your hermeneutic is terrible misguided.
This document, while derived partly from extensive consultations, is also guided by Pope Francis' own vision.
While it might appear that its chief goal was to steer a carefully compromised path between what you call the conservative wing and the liberal wing, it chief goal was actually to articulate a pastoral theology, (Pastoral theology is doctrine) which brings the love of Jesus Christ more effectively to all those who do not live up to the ideal (i.e. to all of us, maybe even those who have trouble loving the enemy such as ISIS terrorists) The document also encourages the entire Church community to be more welcoming to all who in some way fall short of the ideal.
This document is a reconceptualization of pastoral theology. It is doctrinal and seeks to guide practice in a different direction.
With all due respect your hermeneutic is terrible misguided.
This document, while derived partly from extensive consultations, is also guided by Pope Francis' own vision.
While it might appear that its chief goal was to steer a carefully compromised path between what you call the conservative wing and the liberal wing, it chief goal was actually to articulate a pastoral theology, (Pastoral theology is doctrine) which brings the love of Jesus Christ more effectively to all those who do not live up to the ideal (i.e. to all of us, maybe even those who have trouble loving the enemy such as ISIS terrorists) The document also encourages the entire Church community to be more welcoming to all who in some way fall short of the ideal.
This document is a reconceptualization of pastoral theology. It is doctrinal and seeks to guide practice in a different direction.
23
OK, we can compromise - as long as we protect the sacred sacrament of property transfer and ensure that priests can have no legitimate children who might make claims on church property.
14
What the letter is all about is how to live the good life, a joyful life now, not just for ourselves but for those close to us; how to invest in each other and in our children. This is neither a liberal nor conservative but a human agenda. Dismissing such a thoughtful communication as 'bigotry' is not constructive. To respond to Ross, it is axiomatic and a truism that anyone working with people has to meet them where they are. This entails holding in mind the ideal while recognising that many of us are overwhelmed by life and doing our utter best to find good solutions. Many in complex predicaments display for instance, a self-sacrificing love for their children or old relatives, even if they are in 'irregular' arrangements. Being uncompromising offers them no help and risks the 'helpers', who might crumble under the same challenges looking like hypocrites. The Pope is very aware of this and has helped us Catholics move on.
12
I am what I call a "de facto Catholic" as I married a Catholic and we have raised our children as Catholics. We've been married for 42 years. The notion that my wife, were we still at some point to divorce and she to remarry, would somehow not be welcome in the Catholic church has to me always seemed insane. On this particular point, the "liberal" position of Pope Francis seems to be a welcome change for the good.
12
I would like to introduce Ross Douthat to Fr. Richard Rohr O.F.M. Just getting Richard's daily morning email would go a long way in letting some light in to Ross's understanding of Catholicism.
13
Pope Francis is a phony re: sexual abuse by priest.
Read: http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/strange-disconnect-between-pope...
Read: http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/strange-disconnect-between-pope...
2
Mr. Douthat: Your continual misunderstanding of church doctrine and how it evolves throughout the ages as a reflection of the belief and practices of the believing community astounds me. And to compare Francis’ papacy with the Soviet nomenklatura only demonstrates your intrenched and myopic view and limited grasp of process as the emergence of the presence of God in the universe. If we were to follow your idea that change equals the abandonment of Tradition (writ large), we would not have been able to recognize the Son of God, because we would not have recognized the unfolding of our understanding of God as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Matthew 22: 32; Exodus 3:6). To refuse the development of doctrine and practice as lived by the ecclesia is to not believe in the Living God.
25
Let's be clear, the Catholic Church is a man made institution. And men are futzing around trying to modify it a tad, and good for the Pope. I think he is great. However, unless and until the Catholic Church starts worrying as much about about same sex unions (formal or informal) among its Priesthood, as appossed to its flock, then it's all just a sham.
So how about the Catholic Church start preventing gay and pediophile Priests from giving communion, and stop focusing on so much on its parishioners receiving communion.
So how about the Catholic Church start preventing gay and pediophile Priests from giving communion, and stop focusing on so much on its parishioners receiving communion.
10
Can we please retire the term sexual revolution? There has never been one. Only a rebellion, and that mostly by women. Men have always enjoyed sexual freedom with a wink from legal and religious hierarchies dominated by men. As often as not, actions against men for sexual immorality reflect actions of revenge against personal and political enemies. (Think Bill Clinton versus Dennis Hastert.) In other words, the buddies get a wink, the enemies are exposed, or in the case of an angry king, lose a head. But almost always, men call the shots. A male pope suggests compassion in regard to sexual sins, but an all male priesthood still gets to make the final call. I wonder how many men will be granted communion compared to women? One must never forget, it is all Eve's fault and for millennia the decks have been stacked against the weaker sex. Very chivalrous, the church.
34
There is much hostility and hatred in many of these comments and it is unfortunate. I do not recognize my Catholic Church here at all. My Church is a loving and caring Church with many fine priests and nuns assisting every single day to those who are in need and the less fortunate. I think that if these detractors and critics were to attend they would get an entirely different picture. It is so easy to criticize and find fault when you do nothing to assist the Church. I would like to thank the many fine priests and nuns who devote their time and energy to the Church and its flock. There are still many Catholics who appreciate what you do to keep the Church vibrant and running smoothly. It is much appreciated.
8
I dunno. Seems to me that a turn away from conservatism and fundamentalism is a net positive for a religion. There are plenty of present day examples of the opposite - and it's deadly.
18
Mr. Douthat:
small suggestion - - -
try a different parish...and get fully involved in its activities...
your raised-pulpit view of the American church needs a major re-edu-ma-cation.
our parish, while far from perfect in any sense,
has developed the ways and means to house, care and educate the refugees from the war-zones of the middle-east while still doing the same for the 300+ high school aged homeless in our larger community...
there is enough work for everyone to participate...
please come join us, we welcome everyone...
and we leave all judgments for the much, much later - - -
namely, the hereafter.
13
The message in AMORIS LAETITIA is to call souls to the Church, voluntarily, who may be troubled or confused or hurtfully damaged, no matter the source (even by the Church itself) to help find a deeper sense of peace and joy in this troubled world. To hear, and maybe even believe in a message of hope for and by anyone, is a real joy. It is not intended to be a political statement of any sort, within or without the Church walls. The millions of words written and to be written about this document, and the Pope himself, will be wasted if the authors attempt to fit a political view into his words. It is troubling that we can't talk about the Faith, whether one embraces it or dismisses it, without this need to reduce how we find hope to banal, narrow political limits. It can't be done because it in not the context. It is comforting that this Pope annoys both sides. Sure there are rules, as there are everywhere, but the first and primary rule of Catholic morality is the absolute belief in free will. It is where the Church begins its discussion on morality, as it must. Pope Francis just reminds us that this is still true. I urge everyone to al least read his words before believing there is some agenda beyond supplying abundant hopefulness to the soul.
21
Douthat's "essential sameness" supposes that the "church of conservatism" and "church of liberalism" are separated by a deeper and older schism than those separating Judaism and Christianity or Catholicism and Protestantism. Yet the notion of a "conservative ideology" and Douthat's ideas about the liberal-conservative divide both post date WWII. Few who take any of these religions (or religion generally) seriously would agree.
5
Substitute political terms and identities for the religious ones and you have a description of what is occurring around the world in politics today. Similarly, for so many these struggles within Catholicism appear to be between clerical sects and elites vying for power and control and the adherence to some abstruse doctrinal ideals, which to many seem divorced (pun intended) from modernity, if not reality. Little of it seems at least to be about finding, through either renewal or reform, the means of nurturing or encouraging a commonplace sense of the divine or cosmological unity; after all, isn't that part of the meaning of "catholic."
The pope seems to have recognized belatedly this schism between doctrine and daily life. His efforts of course are met with resistance and the greater schism that this resistance presages is the division, if not dissolution, of the church within a few generations. Much as so many, through either vested interest or willful ignorance, continue to deny the ever-accumulating evidence of global warming and its devastating potential, Catholicism's leaders seem in parallel to be unable to acknowledge that at a minimum they risk irrelevance and quite possibly extinction. Those bishops and cardinals arguing among themselves about wholly unworkable doctrine may be like the musicians on the Titanic trying to decide what songs to play while the ship was sinking. Smart Catholics will soon be rushing to the lifeboats.
The pope seems to have recognized belatedly this schism between doctrine and daily life. His efforts of course are met with resistance and the greater schism that this resistance presages is the division, if not dissolution, of the church within a few generations. Much as so many, through either vested interest or willful ignorance, continue to deny the ever-accumulating evidence of global warming and its devastating potential, Catholicism's leaders seem in parallel to be unable to acknowledge that at a minimum they risk irrelevance and quite possibly extinction. Those bishops and cardinals arguing among themselves about wholly unworkable doctrine may be like the musicians on the Titanic trying to decide what songs to play while the ship was sinking. Smart Catholics will soon be rushing to the lifeboats.
5
The Church has no moral standing. Its history of child abuse and contemporary cover-up makes it a criminal organization. It should be charged under RICO laws. The devout should break off and ignore these abhorrent men.
17
I'm not Catholic and don't really care,,,but your religious and political beliefs seem to go hand in hand--backwards.
24
When the ambiguous becomes the sacred, the ambiguous become sacred. Order comes, order goes.
This is not a poker game. There is not a winner who is going to take the pot. Organized religions survive by occupying persistent niches in ever-changing societies over long spans of time. But successful persistence is not attained by continuous tenacity. Rather, all follows the way of water, and understands when the way requires fluidity.
In the long run the sacred cannot be defeated. All that is required by us is that we not botch things up completely. Pope Francis seems up to that modest task.
This is not a poker game. There is not a winner who is going to take the pot. Organized religions survive by occupying persistent niches in ever-changing societies over long spans of time. But successful persistence is not attained by continuous tenacity. Rather, all follows the way of water, and understands when the way requires fluidity.
In the long run the sacred cannot be defeated. All that is required by us is that we not botch things up completely. Pope Francis seems up to that modest task.
9
This reminds me of a widowed friend who married a divorced Protestant. He still received communion due to his parish priest approval. Later a new priest was assigned and although this priest didn’t agree with the arrangement still allowed it. Later the woman’s ex died and she became Catholic. Both are now active in the parish’s social ministry program. This is a good example of the Pope’s thinking of keeping a soul in the church.
8
Yet another very insightful and intellectually stimulating article confirming my rejection of all organized religions since they parse whatever scriptures they accept into conflicting camps for no particular spiritual gain. The teachings of Christ, for example, are basically love, faith, forgiveness, hope, charity, and baptism. If we followed those teachings, all the other crazy stuff from semi-literate preachers and schools of theology claiming the one true word would disappear. What a wonderful world that would be.
9
I think it just show how innocuous a male driven entity can be. The truth cannot be managed. It is what it is. Just follow the 10 commandments. Anything else is overblown.
3
This pope is bizarre. He's basically a leftist political figure, not a representative of the church. When the church allows anything, it ceases to stand for anything.
1
In an ever changing world, the center always shifts. It never holds for long, a new center is always in the making. What Mr. Douthat looks upon with alarm is merely the normal course of things.
5
All this analysis is worthless considering the subject. The true future of humanity is away from backward vestigial mythologies and toward a relationship with the world and its inhabitants based on evidence and objective fact. Isn't analyzing religious factions like admiring a sinking ship?
11
Since Pope Francis became pope, there's been a constant drum beat about how "different" he is, how he's "making changes," how much more compassionate he is. I wish this would stop. Because all of his little changes mask the deepest of injustices that persist: Sexual abuse BY PRIESTS of CHILDREN.
None of the offenders have gone to jail. Some have simply been "put out to pasture." In other words, Pope Francis has let CRIMINALS off. Why? To protect the church. At the expense of the victims. That is heinous. Imagine any other leader -- Obama, Merkel, FDR, Bush -- being able to do that without an uproar of criticism.
None of the offenders have gone to jail. Some have simply been "put out to pasture." In other words, Pope Francis has let CRIMINALS off. Why? To protect the church. At the expense of the victims. That is heinous. Imagine any other leader -- Obama, Merkel, FDR, Bush -- being able to do that without an uproar of criticism.
11
The op ed stands on a fault line from the get go. Speaking of a truce presupposes an adversarial stance among warring camps. For most of us Catholics behind the pews, the hold of our faith tradition is not political but lies in our commitment to the system of meaning that Catholicism provides, which in turn expresses itself in prayer, worship and ministry. From where we stand, sharing communion with more and more of those who ache to receive it, is a source of joy.
7
The perennially sought state of organized religion throughout time has been a static state wherein "religion" holds primacy of place above the laws of man...in other words - a static status quo with preternatural authority and absolute control over individuals' thoughts, speech, actions and beliefs. The implications and connotations inherent in "Modernity" are to many both heretical and profane to that goal.
As religious doctrine has never recognized the concept of "personal freedoms," little wonder thoughts of modernizing and upgrading has left nearly every religious tradition in the Western world divided.
As religious doctrine has never recognized the concept of "personal freedoms," little wonder thoughts of modernizing and upgrading has left nearly every religious tradition in the Western world divided.
5
What must it be like for Pope Francis, who must realize that for all the good the Catholic Church does in the world, it's an organization that has far too many embarrassing and counter-productive rules that too many in the church resist changing or eliminating? It must be like being the President of the Confederate States of America, trying to keep slavery alive while pretending it's about state's rights...to keep slavery alive...
6
Hoping for any kind of clarity or sanity from people who claim to know what god wants is insanity.
Killing in the name of ancient scripture, deciding who is holy and who is not, recognizing miracles as fact are all acts of insanity.
What kind of crazy person would believe that the men who have worn the pointy bejeweled hat have a direct line to god if they can't bring themselves to stop their priests from raping boys or helping Nazis or even having a 'Just War Doctrine.' Yes, the church has a document that says when it's OK to kill other people. You just have to follow the way they have officially interpreted the 'word of god' and trust that the people who have gone to divinity school have a direct line to the all-powerful. It was originally written by Justinian about 400 AD and has been revised ever since.
If one were about to enter the army and asked a priest about it the Doctrine he would tell you to do what your commanders tell you without regard to whether the commander will follow the Just War Doctrine. So it's OK to kill if you follow your commander, not whether you follow Church law.
If this makes sense to any of you, you should contact a doctor or any sane person - NOT a priest - immediately.
PS: I teach at a large, well known Jesuit College. I like the priests, I just don't trust them to speak for god.
Killing in the name of ancient scripture, deciding who is holy and who is not, recognizing miracles as fact are all acts of insanity.
What kind of crazy person would believe that the men who have worn the pointy bejeweled hat have a direct line to god if they can't bring themselves to stop their priests from raping boys or helping Nazis or even having a 'Just War Doctrine.' Yes, the church has a document that says when it's OK to kill other people. You just have to follow the way they have officially interpreted the 'word of god' and trust that the people who have gone to divinity school have a direct line to the all-powerful. It was originally written by Justinian about 400 AD and has been revised ever since.
If one were about to enter the army and asked a priest about it the Doctrine he would tell you to do what your commanders tell you without regard to whether the commander will follow the Just War Doctrine. So it's OK to kill if you follow your commander, not whether you follow Church law.
If this makes sense to any of you, you should contact a doctor or any sane person - NOT a priest - immediately.
PS: I teach at a large, well known Jesuit College. I like the priests, I just don't trust them to speak for god.
7
Mr. Douthat writes that if the pope endorsed communion for the divorced, it would throw doctrine "into a flagrant self-contradiction." Oh my, and who would give a fig about yet another "self-contradiction" in the Catholic Church?
The Church - the self-appointed holier-than-thou group of pedophiles, "virgins" and closeted gay men wearing gold robes and dresses while living tax-free and immune from any justice for their crimes - continues its absurdity that remarriage without an annulment is adultery, as adultery in the Church runs rampant, divorcees and not.
"What the church considers a commandment becomes a mere 'ideal'." Yes, just as all the gun-loving Catholics believe the 2nd Amendment trumps that "idealistic" first commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Al Jazeera's "Holy Money" revealed the RCC's financial empire in real estate and health care.. So public hand-wringing about divorce and communion just takes the focus off their obscene wealth while people needing charity get none. Same tactic used by GOP conservatives flailing on about restrooms and wedding cakes, instead of jobs, justice and equality.
Religion is simply indoctrinated hypocrisy. Other than money laundering or pedophilia, why would anyone care what religious "leaders" do or say? They don't live in the real world. Never have. Never will.
The Church - the self-appointed holier-than-thou group of pedophiles, "virgins" and closeted gay men wearing gold robes and dresses while living tax-free and immune from any justice for their crimes - continues its absurdity that remarriage without an annulment is adultery, as adultery in the Church runs rampant, divorcees and not.
"What the church considers a commandment becomes a mere 'ideal'." Yes, just as all the gun-loving Catholics believe the 2nd Amendment trumps that "idealistic" first commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Al Jazeera's "Holy Money" revealed the RCC's financial empire in real estate and health care.. So public hand-wringing about divorce and communion just takes the focus off their obscene wealth while people needing charity get none. Same tactic used by GOP conservatives flailing on about restrooms and wedding cakes, instead of jobs, justice and equality.
Religion is simply indoctrinated hypocrisy. Other than money laundering or pedophilia, why would anyone care what religious "leaders" do or say? They don't live in the real world. Never have. Never will.
16
This is not a doctrinal document. It is a political document.
Conservatives can take heart in knowing that Francis's loosening of restrictions on parish priests' will be rolled back as soon as a new conservative pope is elected.
Liberals can take heart in knowing that this is an opportunity for the church leadership to observe that the majority of Catholics don't really care about doctrinal rules on anything, and do not even accept the validity of the alleged source of those rules.
The Catholic Church has, in the last half-century, morphed into a new Anglican church, in which average members agree on little aside from the role of tradition and pageantry, nostalgia for a fading sense of community, and boredom with medieval theology.
Conservatives can take heart in knowing that Francis's loosening of restrictions on parish priests' will be rolled back as soon as a new conservative pope is elected.
Liberals can take heart in knowing that this is an opportunity for the church leadership to observe that the majority of Catholics don't really care about doctrinal rules on anything, and do not even accept the validity of the alleged source of those rules.
The Catholic Church has, in the last half-century, morphed into a new Anglican church, in which average members agree on little aside from the role of tradition and pageantry, nostalgia for a fading sense of community, and boredom with medieval theology.
8
RD writes from the view that the Church and its sacraments of God's Grace are rewards for those who hear and follow the Rules of Moral Behavior. Pope Francis is of the view that the Church and its sacraments are food and medicine in the struggle to experience grace and share love. A rulebook administered without kindness and forgiveness quickly becomes a revision of Draco's code; a life without ideals of the good rapidly defaults into being self-righteous and hostile to those believing otherwise. Between these views walk all Catholics if not all humanity.
3
Judy Collins: Priest
Then he took his contradictions out
And he splashed them on my brow
So which words was I then to doubt
When choosing what to vow
Should I choose them all-should I make them mine
The sermons the hymns and the valentines
And he asked for truth and he asked for time
And he asked for only now
Then he took his contradictions out
And he splashed them on my brow
So which words was I then to doubt
When choosing what to vow
Should I choose them all-should I make them mine
The sermons the hymns and the valentines
And he asked for truth and he asked for time
And he asked for only now
1
A "new Catholic truce"?? Really?? Is anyone speaking OF or has anyone spoken FOR all the Catholic children abused by the Catholic clergy?. Seems that there are a lot of small people who have nobody to speak for them,. But, has that not always been the way, is it not?????
6
It's so sad...it's just such a waste.
Mr. Douthat has clearly read a great deal, knows the authors, the arguments, the different points of view...
And yet it doesn't do him, or his readers, a bit of good. All that time wasted.
Mr. Douthat has clearly read a great deal, knows the authors, the arguments, the different points of view...
And yet it doesn't do him, or his readers, a bit of good. All that time wasted.
7
I don't see this as much progress. It's still "antics with semantics" at best. Remember, this is religion we are talking we are talking about: something that should be authentic and high integrity. Instead we have a compromise that keeps the "Truths as true" while encouraging priests to bend and be flexible with them on a more informal basis, in favor of pastoral needs and care.
The Church is now officially trying to have it's cake while eating it too. They're doing the same thing to Gays: be symapathetic, offer them welcome, do not judge - but don't support their lifes either, especialy their desire to have home, marriage and family. You can informally be part of the Catholic Family, but you can't make one of your own.
The Church has got to come to grips with the fact that people are Born Gay, and as such are created by God that way. It's not a moral lifestyle choice. They need to ultimately figure out what modernity and liberality really mean. Ironically, we have Francis trying to make the Church warm and welcoming, while his still living predecessor was famous for saying the Church had to be true to it's beliefs, even if that meant the Family of the Faithful would shrink over time. The Conservatives are happy, some Liberals are... happier, but the messaging is more confusing than ever to the Faithful. This is really a new way of saying, "hate the sin, love the sinner." Is this really progress? A message of True Love should address more.
The Church is now officially trying to have it's cake while eating it too. They're doing the same thing to Gays: be symapathetic, offer them welcome, do not judge - but don't support their lifes either, especialy their desire to have home, marriage and family. You can informally be part of the Catholic Family, but you can't make one of your own.
The Church has got to come to grips with the fact that people are Born Gay, and as such are created by God that way. It's not a moral lifestyle choice. They need to ultimately figure out what modernity and liberality really mean. Ironically, we have Francis trying to make the Church warm and welcoming, while his still living predecessor was famous for saying the Church had to be true to it's beliefs, even if that meant the Family of the Faithful would shrink over time. The Conservatives are happy, some Liberals are... happier, but the messaging is more confusing than ever to the Faithful. This is really a new way of saying, "hate the sin, love the sinner." Is this really progress? A message of True Love should address more.
6
Mr. Douthat fears that the Pope's new center is not likely to hold. Why should this be a matter for fear? Let the two churches, rigid dogma and liberal pablum, separate and go their own ways.
Dan Kravitz
Dan Kravitz
4
I believe in this whole-heartedly: organized religion is a mental illness and the sooner we eradicate it from our species, the better. But with climate change coming on so much more quickly than even the scientists' models predicted I fear there now is not enough time. Those who believe so fervently in their 'god' would help us all by worshiping privately and keeping it out of our public sphere.
13
This piece, like many others I've read complaining about Pope Francis' exhortation, read as if they had been written by the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son.
I'm glad Pope Francis released this during the Year of Mercy.
I'm glad Pope Francis released this during the Year of Mercy.
3
Pope Francis has struck an artful balance between doctrine, which he says he hasn't changed, and pastoral concerns, which he has elevated with his call for clergy to engage with greater flexibility, affective concern and care.
What nobody has mentioned (that I have seen, anyway) is the effect this will have on the clergy. Many of them are ambitious about getting ahead in clerical roles. Now they know that being a good pastoral leader will help them, while fighting against it would hurt them.
In much the same way that Pope Francis's predecessors encouraged the clergy to be more dogmatic and strict, this pope has encouraged them to meet their flock where they are in the real world.
Many of the clergy will do this because it feels right in terms of their Christian beliefs. Others will follow because they want to get ahead in the clergy. Either way, it's a better direction for the church.
What nobody has mentioned (that I have seen, anyway) is the effect this will have on the clergy. Many of them are ambitious about getting ahead in clerical roles. Now they know that being a good pastoral leader will help them, while fighting against it would hurt them.
In much the same way that Pope Francis's predecessors encouraged the clergy to be more dogmatic and strict, this pope has encouraged them to meet their flock where they are in the real world.
Many of the clergy will do this because it feels right in terms of their Christian beliefs. Others will follow because they want to get ahead in the clergy. Either way, it's a better direction for the church.
3
I gave up on organized religion decades ago--too many arbitrarily conceived rules and "truths" promulgated by groups of men over centuries, deciding what power and control they wanted to impose on the rest of us. I am not Catholic, but I admire Pope Francis enormously for his compassion, understanding, forgiveness, tolerance, empathy, and courage. It always amazes me when ardent Catholics, like Ross, are apparently more concerned with rules and structure than with living by the example of Christ.
10
Many newspapers used to have a 'Religion' section. Maybe the NY Times needs one. Douthat seems to write about two things with great frequency: Pope Francis and Donald Trump. Sometimes he write about them both in the same column.
6
Douthat is simply wrong, when he pontificates ( a man of tradition that he is) to the effect that the other religions he references are functionally analogous to Catholicism.
Newsflash Ross: no one can throw you out of Judaism or Protestantism. Nor consign you to hell.
Catholicism is a strictly hierarchical brand with absolute authority and supernatural powers claimed for one person at the top. Meanwhile, Protestantism flourishes with many, many different tendencies, each with independent authority and power. As to Judaism, it is best defined by "Two Jews, three opinions."
Newsflash Ross: no one can throw you out of Judaism or Protestantism. Nor consign you to hell.
Catholicism is a strictly hierarchical brand with absolute authority and supernatural powers claimed for one person at the top. Meanwhile, Protestantism flourishes with many, many different tendencies, each with independent authority and power. As to Judaism, it is best defined by "Two Jews, three opinions."
9
The congregants that I encounter at my fairly large upper east side Catholic Church in Manhattan at Sunday Mass are very content and worship enthusiastically week after week. It is very well attended by young and old, married and single but what is striking is the number of young people the Church is attracting. I think they know they cannot go it alone and need God's assistance in their day to day living.
They are active participants who help with readings, serving holy communion and taking up the collection. There are both men and women assisting the priests and there is never a shortage of volunteers. They give generously to the collection basket which goes towards aiding the poor and paying for the expenses associated with operating the church.
The sermons I have heard are excellent and everyone listens intently. The priests are very caring and the pastor is extremely approachable. He even announced from the altar that he was available to anyone who needed his help. There are many priests like this one who are compassionate and are ready and willing to assist us. All we need to do is ask. This is why I love my Church and remain a Catholic.
They are active participants who help with readings, serving holy communion and taking up the collection. There are both men and women assisting the priests and there is never a shortage of volunteers. They give generously to the collection basket which goes towards aiding the poor and paying for the expenses associated with operating the church.
The sermons I have heard are excellent and everyone listens intently. The priests are very caring and the pastor is extremely approachable. He even announced from the altar that he was available to anyone who needed his help. There are many priests like this one who are compassionate and are ready and willing to assist us. All we need to do is ask. This is why I love my Church and remain a Catholic.
8
The story of the Catholic Church is a series of capitulations to reality, always expressed with a rationalization as if to say: this is not really a change, just a reinterpretation. Bumbling along one or two centuries behind Western Civilization, Catholicism co-opts the civil rulebook of the moment, only to be out of date a hundred years later. The hierarchical organization of the church provides an authority figure who can issue new rules when falling membership demands it. This is the strength of Catholicism: the Pope can always maneuver himself out in front of the crowd to raise his banner.
4
The Catholic Church put itself into a corner for centuries and now it is flip flopping on its principles. Hypocrisy at its best.
6
Oh, that all religions would just "evolve" themselves out of existence. That popes, bishops, rabbis, ayatollahs, imams, and other masculine know-it-alls would evolve out of their so out-of-date robes and beanies, crowns, capes, cummerbunds and sashes, and out of the awful dogma and take their places in the world with real full-blooded people.
People suffer quite enough in their lives without the restrictions of religious belief foisted on them. People have enough to worry about and protect their families from without having to tow the line of a religious dictators and their 'beliefs'.
The major religious beliefs sprang from a gang of guys in a barren desert, ignorant and fearful of death and other natural phenomena, like sex. If we are not directly victimized by a religion in our little lives, the consequences of the battles over it and within it are everywhere. The destruction, waste, displacement of peoples, mayhem, terrorism, rape and subjugation of women and girls, torture and murder of innocents can be found in nearly every part of the world because of religion and its 'believers'. And then there are the evils done by the church members themselves and the protection of their own sexual predators, child rapists, con men, and nazi murderers.
Religious beliefs enslave us all and will enslave us forevermore until they collapse under the weight of their own ridiculous emptiness. Some day,
People suffer quite enough in their lives without the restrictions of religious belief foisted on them. People have enough to worry about and protect their families from without having to tow the line of a religious dictators and their 'beliefs'.
The major religious beliefs sprang from a gang of guys in a barren desert, ignorant and fearful of death and other natural phenomena, like sex. If we are not directly victimized by a religion in our little lives, the consequences of the battles over it and within it are everywhere. The destruction, waste, displacement of peoples, mayhem, terrorism, rape and subjugation of women and girls, torture and murder of innocents can be found in nearly every part of the world because of religion and its 'believers'. And then there are the evils done by the church members themselves and the protection of their own sexual predators, child rapists, con men, and nazi murderers.
Religious beliefs enslave us all and will enslave us forevermore until they collapse under the weight of their own ridiculous emptiness. Some day,
13
I was taking your column seriously until you started throwing around terms like "late-Marzist odor" and "Soviet nomenklatura".
Your underhanded attempt to paint the Pope as some commie pinko totally undermines you credibility.
Your underhanded attempt to paint the Pope as some commie pinko totally undermines you credibility.
19
The tension here is that many Catholics - especially those who have grown up in the church - are struggling to balance their personal circumstances with the Church's dogma, but converts like Ross have often chosen to enter the Catholic church precisely because it stands counter to current social trends. One of the things they value most is the church's willingness to give the figurative middle finger to those seeking looser standards (that's the way they see it). That, not theology, is why they are Catholic. The only thing I can say to Douthat is that the church that blew itself apart over the divorce of Henry VIII is not the same institution that would fall all over itself to welcome Newt Gingrich into its orbit. Addressing every development as a dimension of current political situations is itself a sign that the church is not universal and unchanging. The church needs a different paradigm for dealing with the modern world.
5
Diversity among religious groups is why religions evolve,as they should.If there is any hope for humanity it lies in keeping pace with revolutionary thought & accomplishments , which is the primary weakness with the Catholic Church, & every orthodox religious concept.When you enslave thought & reason & make questioning a sin, you destroy the greatest gift that God gave us, the ability to think.Christianity & Islam were the greatest revolutions in the history in mankind. However, they both became what they had rebelled against.
6
Americans always mistake the Pope. Italians, among others, know better. The Church is an ancient institution, with rituals and guidance and ceremony and background. It is the stage on which life happens. But nobody, not even the priest, takes it as deadly serious as Christians in America. Religion is supposed to help you live your life in the community. It is not, except for clerics, supposed to dictate terms.
6
As I read this, I kept thinking of two famous quotations:
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson.
"It is revolting to have no better reason for a rule of law than that it was laid down in the time of Henry IV. It is still more revolting if the grounds upon which it was laid down have vanished long since, and the rule simply persists from blind imitation of the past." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson.
"It is revolting to have no better reason for a rule of law than that it was laid down in the time of Henry IV. It is still more revolting if the grounds upon which it was laid down have vanished long since, and the rule simply persists from blind imitation of the past." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
6
There's just so much to say about the Popes latest "letter", and peoples reactions to it. But all the interpretations of what it actually says, implies or what it holds out as preview for the next few letters are all irrelevant to most RC's. Actual practicing Catholics are caught between 4 pressing forces; The Church - the institution, their local parish, their own understanding of what makes one a good Catholic, and the generality of being a good christian. Being a good Catholic means following certain ceremonial rules of the Institution, while being a good christian is where the person does their own interpretive work. The two can be miles apart, or not. While a devoted Catholic knows what the The Church demands of them - they also know, instinctively that a personal God isnt overly worried about mostly man-made rules.
That a personal God is in the trenches with them, while The Churches God is not. The Churches God is nothing but a bookkeeper, tallying up their offenses, seeking penance (payment) in return for leniency. Their personal God is there in the car ride home to a bad marriage, to a job that drains them but supports their family, to their vice driven outlets for the stresses of life, to the pharmacy to pick up birth control, etc. Their personal God knows them for who they are and the struggles they endure.
The Churches God doesnt know them, no more then a belligerent IRS agent knows the person they seek to audit and crush. Those two Gods remain always at odds.
That a personal God is in the trenches with them, while The Churches God is not. The Churches God is nothing but a bookkeeper, tallying up their offenses, seeking penance (payment) in return for leniency. Their personal God is there in the car ride home to a bad marriage, to a job that drains them but supports their family, to their vice driven outlets for the stresses of life, to the pharmacy to pick up birth control, etc. Their personal God knows them for who they are and the struggles they endure.
The Churches God doesnt know them, no more then a belligerent IRS agent knows the person they seek to audit and crush. Those two Gods remain always at odds.
7
Ross,
Most of these people howling at you aren't Catholics. They are like fat, out-of-shape people who can't stick to a diet and then want to have the diet changed so they can say still say they are dieting.
The social justice-based (let's not worry about sexual morality! let's feed the poor!) denominations rapidly whither away. You don't need God to feed the poor--government or secular NGO's will do it fine.
And freed of any morality to direct their desires toward procreation rather than selfish physical pleasure, they rapidly decline as a population anyway.
Only those who continue to follow the difficult moral teachings that keep a society from going extinct will be around eventually.
Yes, the times (And The NY Times) may be on their side, but time isn't.
Most of these people howling at you aren't Catholics. They are like fat, out-of-shape people who can't stick to a diet and then want to have the diet changed so they can say still say they are dieting.
The social justice-based (let's not worry about sexual morality! let's feed the poor!) denominations rapidly whither away. You don't need God to feed the poor--government or secular NGO's will do it fine.
And freed of any morality to direct their desires toward procreation rather than selfish physical pleasure, they rapidly decline as a population anyway.
Only those who continue to follow the difficult moral teachings that keep a society from going extinct will be around eventually.
Yes, the times (And The NY Times) may be on their side, but time isn't.
3
I never understood conservative christians.
Whine all you want but Jesus was a Liberal.
Heck, Jesus might be the first Liberal (Buddha and Ahkanatan notwithstanding) "Love Thy Enemy", "Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone", "Turn The Other Cheek", Blessed Are The Peacemakers"...sounds pretty hippy dippy to me.
It just goes to show that when you add conservatives to anything, even a religion based on forgiveness, the whole message gets lost and the bickering starts.
Whine all you want but Jesus was a Liberal.
Heck, Jesus might be the first Liberal (Buddha and Ahkanatan notwithstanding) "Love Thy Enemy", "Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone", "Turn The Other Cheek", Blessed Are The Peacemakers"...sounds pretty hippy dippy to me.
It just goes to show that when you add conservatives to anything, even a religion based on forgiveness, the whole message gets lost and the bickering starts.
20
Once upon a time in the days of my innocence and faith I learned much if not all of the Baltimore Catechism No. 3. I questioned nothing and sought to survive as a sinner by going to confession, reciting countless rosaries and novenas while seeking the holy life as a seminarian on the way to becoming ordained as a priest. The realities of human biology overcame me as I discovered the passions and pleasures of human sexuality that as a youth was regarded as sinful to be confessed weekly with penance sufficient to remove the stain of mortal sin. Now I am a psychoanalyst sober and grounded as an adult in the realities of human nature. I feel deep sorrow as the tragic narrative of pedophilia emerges dramatized in SPOTLIGHT. The priests I once revered as a youth still remain as treasured men in my life for they fostered my development as a responsible and ethical adult but the cynical realities of organized religion and its imperious modes is now crystal clear. What would Christ say were He here amongst us? To be sure He would speak and act with compassion and concern most focused on the children not as a politician the most important of whom in Roman Catholicism is the Pope. To that kingdom and its continuance the Pope must devote himself. The Vatican as a City State with it's armies and diplomats, great wealth and worldwide impact seems to be a universe away from the simplicity and relevance of an itinerant Jew, the Christ, who said, "Suffer the little ones to come unto me".
3
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
Follow the money people. Francis was selected by the same old white men who selected the last pope, a somewhat conservative fellow. The last pope was costing the church money by alienating contributors in affluent countries so the men behind the curtain pushed him out and put a new, kindler, gentler, spokesman in his place.
Follow the money people. Francis was selected by the same old white men who selected the last pope, a somewhat conservative fellow. The last pope was costing the church money by alienating contributors in affluent countries so the men behind the curtain pushed him out and put a new, kindler, gentler, spokesman in his place.
8
The solution is clear, Ross. All women, worldwide must just walk away from all patriarchal religions. It is clear from his list that all of those religions are simply a set-up for the needs of the males and if those males haven't smartened up in all those centuries, then they never will.
Men must be freed to war on their doctrines and dogmas, rites and rituals. Let them go at it. It has nothing to do with females. We aren't considered worthy, nor are we welcome.
Ladies, let's take our Pill and our safe means of abortion and clear out.
Let's take the parts of religions that the men could not care less about: Let's take the music and pot-luck suppers, the feeding the poor, sense of welcome, the sense of purpose, the joy of education, the freedom of pleasure and dump these neo-lithics. And, we'll take the kiddies because, obviously, we are much better at protecting them than the men.
There we go, Ross! You don't need us or want us? Then, bye-bye!
Frankly, we women are all working nowadays and our need for patriarchal, misogynistic, androcentric and hierarchical men is near zero.
You are not invited, Ross, not for 2,000 years.
Go fight your wars of dogma.
We're outta here!
Men must be freed to war on their doctrines and dogmas, rites and rituals. Let them go at it. It has nothing to do with females. We aren't considered worthy, nor are we welcome.
Ladies, let's take our Pill and our safe means of abortion and clear out.
Let's take the parts of religions that the men could not care less about: Let's take the music and pot-luck suppers, the feeding the poor, sense of welcome, the sense of purpose, the joy of education, the freedom of pleasure and dump these neo-lithics. And, we'll take the kiddies because, obviously, we are much better at protecting them than the men.
There we go, Ross! You don't need us or want us? Then, bye-bye!
Frankly, we women are all working nowadays and our need for patriarchal, misogynistic, androcentric and hierarchical men is near zero.
You are not invited, Ross, not for 2,000 years.
Go fight your wars of dogma.
We're outta here!
33
Conservatives like Mr Douthat (i.e. most of the Republican Party establishment) seem to think that only one of them is fit to rule, regardless of the role, political, religious or the local school board. Why can't they look at what they've done and all the damage they have caused and come to the realization that they are just wrong and completely out of touch with the world in 2016? The conservative establishment, and the weak-minded fools that accept their disconnect from reality as reality itself, continually run off at the mouth with hubris fit for a king.
It is time that they get out of the way and let the rest of us deal with the reality they refuse to accept, but that they have collectively created. Conservatives have become only about control, regardless of the topic or the consequences. It's high time they face the consequences.
People like Ross Douthat need to start the own religion along with their own political party and they can keep them as pure and stilted as they want. And the rest of us can shut them out.
It is time that they get out of the way and let the rest of us deal with the reality they refuse to accept, but that they have collectively created. Conservatives have become only about control, regardless of the topic or the consequences. It's high time they face the consequences.
People like Ross Douthat need to start the own religion along with their own political party and they can keep them as pure and stilted as they want. And the rest of us can shut them out.
15
However important stable marriages and family are for a healthy society, to call remarriage a "mortal sin" is of such a different time and place as to now be beyond absurd. That Ross Douthat is so beholden to millennial-old dogma makes me worry about myself when I happen to agree with him on on other issues which, believe it or not, I actually do from time to time.
4
It is very possible for divorced, happily remarried and non-annulled Catholics to carefully examine their consciences and find themselves sinless in that regard. It does not help that those who minister and would withhold the sacrament are all unmarried, celebrate and thereby limited in their ability to empathize. Francis, at the core of A-L, is calling for greater empathy, which just might push the needle of dogma.
1
"Who am I to judge?" says Pope Francis. Perhaps the most powerful words ever spoken by a religious leader. And certainly the humblest words ever spoken by any "leader".
Even as an ex-Catholic who has mostly escaped the prison of Catholic dogma, I have to say that I love Pope Francis! His words are those of a real person, and could be those of a real God, that I can respect.
Rather than trying to reconcile seemingly irreconcilable differences, Pope Francis and his amazing grace simply has went to the basics. "Who am I to judge?" With those powerful words he has given all Roman Catholic priests the kind of direction that invites them to meet the flock with open arms and at their level - on the ground in the real world - with compassion not judgement.
Mr. Douthat also amazes me with this article. Because in it he stumbles upon the common ground that escapes most religious minds. I say this as an ex-Catholic who left the church long ago exactly because of the lack of common ground that most Catholic hierarchy enforce - sometimes with banishment. Who can respect that in a God? God loves me so much that He tells me to go away? Forever?
Not this Pope. He lives in the real world.
Viva Papa Francisco!
Even as an ex-Catholic who has mostly escaped the prison of Catholic dogma, I have to say that I love Pope Francis! His words are those of a real person, and could be those of a real God, that I can respect.
Rather than trying to reconcile seemingly irreconcilable differences, Pope Francis and his amazing grace simply has went to the basics. "Who am I to judge?" With those powerful words he has given all Roman Catholic priests the kind of direction that invites them to meet the flock with open arms and at their level - on the ground in the real world - with compassion not judgement.
Mr. Douthat also amazes me with this article. Because in it he stumbles upon the common ground that escapes most religious minds. I say this as an ex-Catholic who left the church long ago exactly because of the lack of common ground that most Catholic hierarchy enforce - sometimes with banishment. Who can respect that in a God? God loves me so much that He tells me to go away? Forever?
Not this Pope. He lives in the real world.
Viva Papa Francisco!
9
Where is the Messiah now that we really need Her?
5
God protect Pope Francis, the beautiful pope!
6
The Papal message sounds like a balancing act. If He were to change doctrine itself he would risk a schism and would be contradicting his predecessors who claimed to be speaking with infallibility. So, He recommends change of pastoral tone and practice. This is a good move as the Church is made for man and not man for the Church which should never have become simply a guardian of so called theological truths demanding everybody's allegiance and adherence.
3
Comparing Mass to the old high school cheer, this is another invitation to "Stand-up, Sit down, fight, fight, fight!
3
Pope Francis says we should try to help the poor and lessen inequality and not just worry about making money.
And conservatives seem to really not like him for that.
And conservatives seem to really not like him for that.
7
What could be more 'catholic' (small 'c') than the idea that we can be fluid in our means so long as the ends are maintained.
The 'ends'? ... the maintenance of our humanity, our community, our respect for one another, our Love of the Higher, our repudiation of the lower. In other words, the characteristics that help us survive and thrive as individuals and as a species.
The 'means' ? My recollection is that Jesus was happy to leave most of that to us... so long as we loved.
The 'ends'? ... the maintenance of our humanity, our community, our respect for one another, our Love of the Higher, our repudiation of the lower. In other words, the characteristics that help us survive and thrive as individuals and as a species.
The 'means' ? My recollection is that Jesus was happy to leave most of that to us... so long as we loved.
4
God and the world He created, is truly a mystery.
If you want to understand some of the miracles of God, study science, gravity, electromagnetics, life originating out of the primordial soup. Truly miracles and much more impressive than Jesus and the fish.
Humans created religion, at best to fulfill their spiritual feelings, at worst for smart cynics to prey on the ignorance of those with the personality who want to follow authority.
It’s ok to say we aren’t smart enough to know what God is thinking.
On the other hand, God gave us a heart and a brain and He expects us to use them.
If you want to understand some of the miracles of God, study science, gravity, electromagnetics, life originating out of the primordial soup. Truly miracles and much more impressive than Jesus and the fish.
Humans created religion, at best to fulfill their spiritual feelings, at worst for smart cynics to prey on the ignorance of those with the personality who want to follow authority.
It’s ok to say we aren’t smart enough to know what God is thinking.
On the other hand, God gave us a heart and a brain and He expects us to use them.
6
Good job at parsing the inside baseball for a religious hierarchy that is most noteworthy in the US for squandering its endowment through the protection of pedophiles rather than their victims. That church is today most skilled at one activity producing disgruntled former members, whose numbers may now rival the number of current Catholics. While the church's failings with marriage have not grabbed the headlines that have been earned by its record with pedophiles, the damage there also has been great - due to the duality (truce) you discuss. I appreciate Francis going after it, but so what? it is clear that he was a selection error, whose record will vanish when he leaves the scene.
I grew up in a large Catholic family and I remember my parent divorcing over 40 years ago as if it happened yesterday. I recall vividly the lack of any consideration by the local priests. Then my parents were able to buy their way out of the dilemma with an annulment so that the marriage did not officially happen. It surely was a miracle! I later asked the priests where the annulment left me and my siblings. Didn't it make us bastxxds? Oh no, not at all was the response - although it clearly did. Of my siblings, two are now dead and five have had lives wrecked by substance abuse. None are Catholic.
I hope someone reboots Dante's Inferno to add circles in hell for the clergy who administered Catholic family policy during the past 40 years.
I grew up in a large Catholic family and I remember my parent divorcing over 40 years ago as if it happened yesterday. I recall vividly the lack of any consideration by the local priests. Then my parents were able to buy their way out of the dilemma with an annulment so that the marriage did not officially happen. It surely was a miracle! I later asked the priests where the annulment left me and my siblings. Didn't it make us bastxxds? Oh no, not at all was the response - although it clearly did. Of my siblings, two are now dead and five have had lives wrecked by substance abuse. None are Catholic.
I hope someone reboots Dante's Inferno to add circles in hell for the clergy who administered Catholic family policy during the past 40 years.
11
Hilarious. Douthat parses how many adulterers can dance on the head of a pin while the Pope allows Bernard Law to run free & easy in the Vatican sanctuary and escape civilian prosecution in Boston. The RCC needs to clean its own house before it judges the dirt in yours.
18
My guess is that if Jesus were here today, He would say that the teachings of Marx come closer than the teachings of Adam Smith to what Jesus taught.
9
Ross Douthat is right, there is no way that I, as a devout Catholic, can believe in a flagrant self-contradiction about the indissolubility of marriage. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to believing in the Trinity, one God who is three Persons, the second of whom was born of a Virgin and who died and is now alive forever.
8
if the church is truly unchanging, why did west divorce east during the Great Schism of 1054?
If another schism is brewing, maybe it's not so bad. Both spouses survived the first one.
If another schism is brewing, maybe it's not so bad. Both spouses survived the first one.
5
Yeah, I can just imagine the old guy with a beard sitting in the clouds saying that it's alright to get divorced and take "holy" communion. I wonder what the old guy in the clouds says about all the pedophilia and the cover ups?
11
"a distinctive late-Marxist odor"
Huh? Would it be fair to say that the conservative Catholics have a distinctive late-Nazi odor? Of course not. Why the smear?
Huh? Would it be fair to say that the conservative Catholics have a distinctive late-Nazi odor? Of course not. Why the smear?
16
I feel the same way. A mean, gratuitous aside and revealing of the writer's urge to throw heat-seeking missiles rather than acknowledge the Christian principles that the pope has so beautifully and thoughtfully conveyed. Francis gives me great hope for this battered world.
2
As with all this pope's pronouncements, there is less here than meets the eye, and less than the liberal wing of the Church has hoped for.
Though Mr Douthat seems to panic, the ground is not shifting under the traditionalists' feet. If anything, Francis is simply acknowledging what has been reality for a long time: that down at the parish level, pastors are following their consciences, or, in the face of rising alienation and dwindling attendance, being pragmatic. The difference between a pope or bishop railing against modernity and King Canute is that Canute knew he couldn't actually roll back the sea. Francis knows too.
The Church's main selling point, though, is that it claims to offer eternal, unchanging truths. And Catholics who chose that supposed certainty over their personal happiness, staying in unhappy marriages or suppressing their sexual orientations, could feel understandable anger if the rules change in mid-game. (And though I disagree with them, the right would have a point.) Vatican II shook the Church up enough to produce the Traditionalist Catholic Church.
In that sense, even if Francis wanted to be a radical reformer (which I doubt), he's painted into a corner. It would take a very Jesuitical Jesuit indeed to walk back the core teachings that far to please the left, without prompting a walk-out by the right.
Though Mr Douthat seems to panic, the ground is not shifting under the traditionalists' feet. If anything, Francis is simply acknowledging what has been reality for a long time: that down at the parish level, pastors are following their consciences, or, in the face of rising alienation and dwindling attendance, being pragmatic. The difference between a pope or bishop railing against modernity and King Canute is that Canute knew he couldn't actually roll back the sea. Francis knows too.
The Church's main selling point, though, is that it claims to offer eternal, unchanging truths. And Catholics who chose that supposed certainty over their personal happiness, staying in unhappy marriages or suppressing their sexual orientations, could feel understandable anger if the rules change in mid-game. (And though I disagree with them, the right would have a point.) Vatican II shook the Church up enough to produce the Traditionalist Catholic Church.
In that sense, even if Francis wanted to be a radical reformer (which I doubt), he's painted into a corner. It would take a very Jesuitical Jesuit indeed to walk back the core teachings that far to please the left, without prompting a walk-out by the right.
2
I know Ross is a Catholic and a believer so what is critical to appreciate in this column, a column he says is about all western religions, is this: Although Ross is writing about religion, there is not one reference to God!
What this tells you is that, though inadvertent on Ross' part, organized western religions (you can include the east as well for my money) are the creation of MEN! Men that seek to secure their worldly power through the use of religion!
Thanks Ross.
What this tells you is that, though inadvertent on Ross' part, organized western religions (you can include the east as well for my money) are the creation of MEN! Men that seek to secure their worldly power through the use of religion!
Thanks Ross.
15
William Blake wrote of Jesus that he was "the perfect man" acting "from impulse and not rules." The impulse he acted from was always love. My Baptist background taught me that not only have "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God," but that we are all sinners, persisting in sin despite grace. You, too, Mr. Douthat, who are lucky enough I suppose to have married a wife who was satisfied not to walk away and leave you with choice of having to soldier on alone or to try to find happiness with someone else; who were fortunate to be born heterosexual, which was very convenient for your faith. If all the church is, is a series of unbreakable rules, what does it really have to offer anyone? What would there be, ultimately, for all those conservatives to conserve?
19
Something Mr. Douthat is forgetting--and it's a big something--is that the church doesn't exist for its own benefit. It's not supposed to prioritize self-preservation. It's supposed to serve people of good will and perform the work of God on earth. Even if that means risking its own existence.
That's ultimately what makes the Church different from businesses and institutions. Missing this point leads to a complete misunderstanding of the Church's mission.
That's ultimately what makes the Church different from businesses and institutions. Missing this point leads to a complete misunderstanding of the Church's mission.
8
How exactly is The Church different from businesses and institutions? It raises money, misrepresents its product, and launders its income to avoid paying taxes. It shelters its criminals by reassigning them to another "department." It hides its obscene wealth from anyone and everyone. It invests heavily in real estate. It owns health care corporations (57% of those in the US), sues the patients who can't pay their bills, and has created more than 100 Catholic universities to spread its propoganda.
How again is the Church not a for-profit corporation?
How again is the Church not a for-profit corporation?
2
The problem is that one man thinks that he, and he alone, knows what a mythological, invisible, supernatural creature wants us to do in order to please it. Believing that this creature actually exists is bad enough, but trying to force others to do as you say it wants us to is sick and dangerous.
9
After getting a divorce, I found other parents at my children's Sunday school and other church related activities were not as friendly. At all.
A coworker told me that I was automatically excommunicated. Simply for being divorced.
These were Catholics, by the way.
A divorce does not, of itself, constitute cause for excommunication in the Catholic Church. There is a LOT of misinformation and there are a LOT of badly educated Catholics.
It is good to see the Pope produce this, but it has to get through to the individual parishes where there can be significant resistance.
A coworker told me that I was automatically excommunicated. Simply for being divorced.
These were Catholics, by the way.
A divorce does not, of itself, constitute cause for excommunication in the Catholic Church. There is a LOT of misinformation and there are a LOT of badly educated Catholics.
It is good to see the Pope produce this, but it has to get through to the individual parishes where there can be significant resistance.
7
The current Pope, (who know's why appointed), is something going on internal in this very large organization? With that said, he obviously appeals to the what I would call the dis-enfranchised . The Catholic who practices birth control, the Catholic who divorced , choosing their own well being over the rules of their religion, gays, and those who simply don't attend. This document my guess would still leave those folks in anguish, as the issues exposed are encouraging but ambitious. In modernity not poor countries when you go to a Catholic church it is so obvious the mainstream sparse attendance is either seniors or immigrants. When I was required to attend Mass every Sunday, you were lucky to get a pew seat. If you were late you often had to stand in the back or along the walls. My point is now most Church's are basically empty, why?, doesn't that concern Rome ?
4
Christianity after almost 200 years of Christ's original message was re-invented by Roman king Constantine for the sole benefit of then declining Roman Empire twisting the real message of Christ ! It was thoroughly corrupted further by Henry the v111,for the same reason. Pope is trying his best to save Catholocisn from dying its natural death by gentle persuasion of confused minds . Recent news of the Arch Bishop of Canterbury being proud of his mother who was bed hopping resulting in his miraculous birth out of wedlock ,shows the steady decline of what is left of Protestant faith too . No wonder Jewish faith has sacrificed so much to maintain its integrity through centuries of persecution at the hands of every one who had the power to do so there is no end in sight either !
Christ in heavens must be so sad to see what happened to his message of peace and love !
Christ in heavens must be so sad to see what happened to his message of peace and love !
Douthat - and thus the NYTs - spends far too much of his, time, yours and ours - plumbing the depths of his obsession with the roaming Catholic church as a bellweather for the national and universal condition. Oh well, I suppose I can only be grateful that, at least as yet, the Grey Lady has not become equally as smitten with a similarly engaged, intellectually overcharged Hassidic Jew or extreme Evangelical Christian.
7
There is no believer like a converted believer. Mr. Douthat, I sincerely hope you feel better after having written this column.
3
The ancient Judeo-Christian religions continue to try to beat back the inevitability of change in a universe constantly and forever in flux, right down to the quantum level. That INCLUDES human experience. Their cosmic view has never held with any degree of logic, which has hijacked the purity and transcendence of true spirituality. Eastern spiritual thought/practice was well aware of this thousands of years before Christianity was even a glint in the eye of humanity.
Divisions into religions are relics of THIS world, and this world only. Want to find yourself spirituality? Ditch the religion thing.
Divisions into religions are relics of THIS world, and this world only. Want to find yourself spirituality? Ditch the religion thing.
3
I don't remember who said this quote but it has a prominent spot in my memory. I should google it. "Religion does three things quite effectively: divides people, controls people, deludes people." That about sums it up in my book.
7
OMG! All we have here is more manipulation of language to justify the machinations of a man who is simply trying to play politics with competing sides of his constituency. There is no teaching here. There is still a theological crisis and it is not going away.
5
From the history I have read, the Roman Catholic Church decided questions of dogma by voting at councils, like Trent and Nicea, that were frequently, if not always, rigged by the winning factions. They invariably cemented their dominance, from the very beginnings of the Church, by declaring that the resulting vote totals were God's eternal Truth. The Catholic Church has always acted like any doubt of it's eternal, rigid, un-assailable authority would bring the whole thing crashing down.
4
I never cease to marvel at the attention paid religion. There tens of millions of Americans who understand and appreciate science, who derive ethical values from human experience, philosophy, and the remarkable social contract that binds us. We evolve, understand and honor human differences and advocate for justice for all.
Then, when a religious leader hints that he might "tolerate" a bit of inclusion and empathy in his archaic mythology, it is international news.
Go figure.
Then, when a religious leader hints that he might "tolerate" a bit of inclusion and empathy in his archaic mythology, it is international news.
Go figure.
12
It is serious error to write that "remarriage without an annulment is adultery" because it wrongly implies that an annulment is like a divorce. A marriage is either sacramentally valid or it is not. A declaration of annulment is no more than an informed guess about the marriage by church officials that never even speak with the couple in person. The process is no more valid than most appellate court decisions. It is certainly less valid than an informed conscience of one or both parties to the [attempted] marriage.
The more important lesson from Pope Francis’s “Joy of Love” is that we need to inform our conscience not just with the well intentioned church rules and teachings but with the more important biblical spirit. It is refreshing to hear that Francis apparently thinks the church has more than enough rules on the subject of family formation. Local priests and bishops will have to face the myriad of everyday problems in the modern world and produce “prophetic visions, transformative actions and creative forms of charity” with little help from uniform religious protocols. Honest mistakes are an intended consequence of the process and mercy will right the ship.
The more important lesson from Pope Francis’s “Joy of Love” is that we need to inform our conscience not just with the well intentioned church rules and teachings but with the more important biblical spirit. It is refreshing to hear that Francis apparently thinks the church has more than enough rules on the subject of family formation. Local priests and bishops will have to face the myriad of everyday problems in the modern world and produce “prophetic visions, transformative actions and creative forms of charity” with little help from uniform religious protocols. Honest mistakes are an intended consequence of the process and mercy will right the ship.
6
As a remarried Catholic, I feel very comfortable. Contradictions in a religion that is over 2000 years old should not surprise any observer. Countries, most of them much younger, have its contradictions. People have contradictions.
It is part of being human. It is the nomenklatura of being human. Soviet or not.
What I perceive of Pope Francis is his inclusiveness. He is doing his job: A very diplomatic Head of State and, most important, Chief Spiritual Officer for everyone. He is doing God’s job. Christ’s job. Not only Catholics find him appealing.
I love being a Catholic.
It is sort of trendy not believing in God. I refer to agnostics because atheists need the same amount of faith than believers. I do not want to be trendy. Like Teilhard De Chardin, I do not perceive contradictions between Science and God.
By the way, Andrea Bocelli has sung in Math, in our Church. Several times. Impromptu!
It is part of being human. It is the nomenklatura of being human. Soviet or not.
What I perceive of Pope Francis is his inclusiveness. He is doing his job: A very diplomatic Head of State and, most important, Chief Spiritual Officer for everyone. He is doing God’s job. Christ’s job. Not only Catholics find him appealing.
I love being a Catholic.
It is sort of trendy not believing in God. I refer to agnostics because atheists need the same amount of faith than believers. I do not want to be trendy. Like Teilhard De Chardin, I do not perceive contradictions between Science and God.
By the way, Andrea Bocelli has sung in Math, in our Church. Several times. Impromptu!
3
Errata:
"...same amount of Faith as believers"
Mass and not Math
"...same amount of Faith as believers"
Mass and not Math
I am not a Catholic, at least not now though when I was young it had a strong influence on me in that it introduced me to an ineffable feeling of spirit in the world, something that I could not define, but seemed inherent in everything. The moral infallibility claimed by the church never made sense to me but I have never lost that sense of wonder which I believe is the essense of the spiritual life.
The world is bound by its feelings of right and wrong which is perhaps needed for civilization to survive, but somehow the spirit or what ever you want to call it seems beyond all of our superficial stories. So paraphrasing the bible, render to Caesar his due. But our figuring out how many angels fit onto the head of a pin seems pointless and just part of the religious game.
The world is bound by its feelings of right and wrong which is perhaps needed for civilization to survive, but somehow the spirit or what ever you want to call it seems beyond all of our superficial stories. So paraphrasing the bible, render to Caesar his due. But our figuring out how many angels fit onto the head of a pin seems pointless and just part of the religious game.
2
Thanks for putting into words something I've had difficulty expressing in my life. I am so thankful for this spiritual presence and intellectual structure of Catholicism. But, as an aunt of mine (a nun) told me, "It's a human institution! Humans are fallible. We have to be humble!". For her, this meant total adherence. For me, it means that I need to keep my informed conscience at-the-ready.
I'm not Catholic now because I believe the response to the sexual abuse scandal is a scandal in and of itself.
Be humble, you guys.
I'm not Catholic now because I believe the response to the sexual abuse scandal is a scandal in and of itself.
Be humble, you guys.
3
Douthat's relativism is my (and the Church's) "primacy of the informed conscience." Love the Church's paradoxes and mysteries! And there is a major exception to the indissolubility of marriage (marriage beyond the grave). It's called DEATH. Now what does it mean to die? "Death do us part" is a secular (and compassionate) accommodation. It is not sacramental. The Church--laity and clergy--is the place to ponder paradox. God is as much a verb as a noun.
1
Am I reading this piece in the 21st century or did I wake up today in the 15th century? With the many problems our world is confronting --- and for that matter, the Catholic church is dealing with, and this issue rises to the top of the Pope's agenda.
7
Thank you Ross, for this op-ed. It is a kind of atonement I am glad you did not pontificate to the Pope himself unlike an earlier op-ed where your absolute, supercilious disagreement was mind-boggling, to say the least. This Pope is wise and astute, feeling the pulse of his flock, how times are changed, how people have changed. He believes in inclusion not excommunication. He realizes that people lead lives according to the modern setup, a setup rife with trials and tribulations. Marriage, love, sexuality are not defined by dogma which has become archaic. Yes. he has definitely more to the center, not by completely breaking down the Church norms of old but opening the doors to people who are left in the lurch, making them a non-believer, excommunicated. Marxist odor? Soviet nomenklatura? Lack of confidence? Really? You got it all wrong. He is extremely wise trying to evolve the Church as people have evolved. He is taking a small step but it is a giant leap forward. No Ross, if you consider this as a truce, then it is a truce that will permanently hold on the road to peace and harmony.
5
In the coda to these musings, Ross leaves us with, "But not one, I fear, that’s likely to permanently hold." In so doing, predicts and -- to be quite candid -- encourages a Masada-like demise for his antique institution.
The only things that do not change are things that are dead. Eternal and immutable truths have no persistence in this worldly plain. Surely he knows that.
The only things that do not change are things that are dead. Eternal and immutable truths have no persistence in this worldly plain. Surely he knows that.
3
A couple of observations:
1. Mr. Douthat doesn't mention the role of personal conscience in his piece. Yet, conscience is at the heart of the Pope's message. Simply put, there is no substitute for an honest conscience. A conscience can be tricked or "compromised', but only by an outright decision to do so. The Church doesn't want followers to blindly adhere to its rules. it wants people to study them, reflect on them, pray for guidance, then, make an informed decision.
2. I see a danger in the Pope' s message, though. To some extent, he's pushing the decision making down to the local priests' level. This is a tremendous responsibility for the individual priest. I wonder how many priests are up to the task. Then again, I wonder how many popes/bishops are up to it.
1. Mr. Douthat doesn't mention the role of personal conscience in his piece. Yet, conscience is at the heart of the Pope's message. Simply put, there is no substitute for an honest conscience. A conscience can be tricked or "compromised', but only by an outright decision to do so. The Church doesn't want followers to blindly adhere to its rules. it wants people to study them, reflect on them, pray for guidance, then, make an informed decision.
2. I see a danger in the Pope' s message, though. To some extent, he's pushing the decision making down to the local priests' level. This is a tremendous responsibility for the individual priest. I wonder how many priests are up to the task. Then again, I wonder how many popes/bishops are up to it.
18
I agree with Patrick. Pope Francis wants the people to take responsibility for their thoughts and actions--just like we teach our kids. I also wonder if many of our priests--especially our younger priests--are up to the task of ministering to their flock. While there are good priests, some don't seem to have the background or training to truly understand their parishioners and their lives, let alone the dynamics of marriage and all that is involved.
Still confused: how many angels can fit on a pinhead?
12
Douthat.
Tripe.
Tripe.
12
What a giggle! Douthat, dyed-in-the-wool Republican defending the Roman Church. But it figures. The laugh is that he seems to think he makes sense. He's not just whistling past the graveyard, He's sitting in its middle whistling while Rome spurns.
15
The Church preaches "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." But when one does not "render" or submit to her authority, the Church since Constantine has turned to Caesars to impose Church authority on non-Christians, women and atheists. Roman Christianity is in crisis because European Christian history presents stubbornly documented facts contradicting Christ: anti-Semitism, racism, and European colonial ethnic cleansing of non-Europeans.("And is it supposed that the wandering savage has a stronger attachment to his home than the settled, civilized Christian?"----President Andrew Jackson's 1st annual message to Congress "On Indian Removal," 1830. ) But the source of the problem still lies in Church doctrine on the Messiah's deification, taken from the ancient Roman Romans honoring the memories of distinguished persons (in a consecrated, memorial worthy of divine honor and worship). A Roman doctrine bestowing divinity became a Church doctrine of endowed sacred divinity. Non-European peoples who then ask historical questions of Christian missionaries about racism: ("Was Christ brown skinned, a Jew"; sexism ("What happened to the wives & children of the Apostles when they fled Roman occupied Judea?" Were the Apostles celibate, divorced...remarried?") are dismissed with guesses or worse. Hence, Pope Francis, like his predecessor, finds Christianity bewildered and besieged by its European history.
2
The roman emperor Constantine never "imposed Christian authority" over non-Christians, and, since he was the Caesar he did not rely on other Caesars to impose Christian authority. He made it illegal for Roman citizens to discriminate against Christians. Get your facts straight.
3
The Church has been in the business of inventing and forgiving sins for 2000 years. It's the basic function of this organization. For a Pope to "urge" less "judgment" while insisting on the core fantasies of a church that thinks it can control and penalize sex, marriage, and divorce is meaningless. It looks like an attempt to burnish the brand while keeping the same toxicity in the product. The sooner the Church discards its attempts to be sexual police the better. American Catholics have been ignoring their vain and ignorant posturing since the 60's. Somebody needs to tell Douthat.
24
My old 1950's era catechism showed a young boy with a black heart and a red devil standing behind him - the boy had committed a mortal sin. Back then a mortal sin included eating meat on Friday, eating between meals during lent, breaking a fast and receiving communion, etc. We were taught to admire Mr. John who received a Dear John letter during WWII and spent the rest of his life practicing celibacy. In the movie, "Spotlight", the psychologist quoted said that 50% of priests are in sexual relationships with women. The desire for intimacy is powerful and God-given. If Mr. Douthat's wife left him in his 20's would he be spouting all this nonsense about whether he could receive communion because he found a woman who filled a big void in his life? Jesus condemned all this legalistic thinking. No, he didn't approve of men giving their wives a pink slip and moving into new relationships on a whim but I strongly believe he would not make a blanket condemnation.
30
Francis seems to be conducting a brilliant "internal reformation" without literally disturbing the precious dogma established in various church councils. His efforts to address the realities of modernity by an emphasis on the basic gospel message and the devolution of the power to interpret certain aspects of "doctrine" to the parish level, I hope, will result in a more caring and relevant and "catholic" institution.
8
Next, the liberal progressive pope will sanction abortion.
As a 'driven-away Catholic', I see a way clear for Catholics to go their own way while still enjoying the benefits of the community: don't marry in the Church. The Church will not quite accept a civil marriage as legitimate or binding, and so a civil divorce ought not then be a strict problem according to canon law. What can they do? Deny your children baptism? But I was taught as a young boy that lay people can baptize in the absence of a priest, and often did in early church history. I am so pleased to have benefited from an excellent Jesuit education in the 60's that enlightened, and enabled me to leave the Church without regret. I greatly admire that good Jesuit, Pope Francis.
26
What this pope is really doing is finally forcing the Church to confront the uncomfortable situation that most — not many, most — practicing Catholics routinely have practiced some form of artificial birth control, yet continue to take communion and the sacraments.
The conservatives don't want to preserve tradition and doctrine. They simply want to deny the unalterable fact that the congregation has moved on.
The conservatives don't want to preserve tradition and doctrine. They simply want to deny the unalterable fact that the congregation has moved on.
16
How can you follow the teachings of a church that changes its stance on what god wants and what is right and wrong when popular opinion changes? Whatever happened to the idea that religion came from God and not Twitter? As much as I dislike organized religion I am baffled by the idea that scripture is the unalterable and eternal word of god but can be changed by whims or interpreted any of a million ways.
It's like saying 'I'll always love you, unless my friends don't think I should or if I don't want to..
The Bible is the inerrant and eternal word of god. Strange, considering that it was compiled from a stack of 65 'gospels' by a Roman emperor, edited, added to, translated and interpreted by men.
It's like saying 'I'll always love you, unless my friends don't think I should or if I don't want to..
The Bible is the inerrant and eternal word of god. Strange, considering that it was compiled from a stack of 65 'gospels' by a Roman emperor, edited, added to, translated and interpreted by men.
1
Uh, you know why the Church has been against birth control, right? So there will be more Catholic babies!
We all know that if the church thinks it will retain more members by allowing birth control than by banning it that they will allow it. It's about power, not god.
We all know that if the church thinks it will retain more members by allowing birth control than by banning it that they will allow it. It's about power, not god.
1
If Ross, a good Catholic, had been accidentally switched at birth and sent home with a Baptist or a Muslim family, he would be a Baptist or a Muslim. (Same goes for the pope.)
A few years ago, we thought our minds were were fully developed by our late teens. Now, we have discovered this doesn't happen until we are in our mid to late twenties.
Indoctrination of children, before their minds have developed enough for critical thinking, reason and logic is how all religions survive.
A few years ago, we thought our minds were were fully developed by our late teens. Now, we have discovered this doesn't happen until we are in our mid to late twenties.
Indoctrination of children, before their minds have developed enough for critical thinking, reason and logic is how all religions survive.
54
And, as Christopher Hitchens so persuasively put it: to put the "Fear Of God" into young children is child abuse. I grew up deathly afraid of going to hell, and that is a terrible burden for even aging adults to fear. For shame.
1
Yup. And I have another "if". If The Pill and safe abortion methods had been discovered in the year 33 CE, then all religions in this entire world would either be non-existent or astonishingly different. For this woman they all became way too creepy. The ISIS sex-slave markets and sex crimes against children of both sexes are utterly logical in a patriarchal religion.... and they are all patriarchal religions.
1
Uh...not remotely true. Ross was born into another faith (I assume Protestant) and converted to Catholicism in his 20s.
2
Every social advance has its dead enders who oppose progress, and their opposition typically has more to do with being upset that a group they don't like is having something good happen to them (they'll never admit this, but let's be honest among ourselves, even if Ross will excuse himself from the honest parts of the discussion.)
We didn't get to live among those dead enders when slavery ended, but as depressing as it is, it's also illuminating to have Ross show us what the dead enders who oppose Catholic progress are willing to say to oppose it.
We didn't get to live among those dead enders when slavery ended, but as depressing as it is, it's also illuminating to have Ross show us what the dead enders who oppose Catholic progress are willing to say to oppose it.
15
Modernity is the natural answer of science, objectivity, reason, facts, logic, morality, imagination and curiosity.
Faith is the supernatural answer to fear, ignorance, stupidity, bigotry, misogyny, physics, chemistry and biology.
Every faith is a condemnation of any other faith. While it is not possible that all of them could be truthful and accurate. It is entirely possible, indeed probable, that they are all wrong. We live in a natural world where we are doomed to currently knowing the 5% of physical reality that is not dark energy which 70% and dark matter which is 25% of our universal reality.
Faith is the supernatural answer to fear, ignorance, stupidity, bigotry, misogyny, physics, chemistry and biology.
Every faith is a condemnation of any other faith. While it is not possible that all of them could be truthful and accurate. It is entirely possible, indeed probable, that they are all wrong. We live in a natural world where we are doomed to currently knowing the 5% of physical reality that is not dark energy which 70% and dark matter which is 25% of our universal reality.
36
Well said.
1
Faith and the morality that is built upon it allows human beings prosper and multiply. Endless demands for selfish choices simply lead to a dead end. This is true for individuals as well as societies.
Find me a person I can trust enough to tell me what god wants then I'll believe in religion. Jimmy Swagger is out, as is that guy Dollar in Florida (although I do admire his felonious behavior), and I think that Nazi Youth Pope is dead now.
Maybe that Pope is lingering in Limbo - oh, I forgot, the Church eliminated Limbo when they found that 3rd world parents didn't want to be separated from their dead babies in the afterlife. Limbo? Gone! Nope, no more Limbo. Limbo bad, berry, berry bad. God don't want no more Limbo unless it's a dance in the Caribbean or tacky cruise ships.
Deuteronomy 22:5 says: “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.”
So all women who wear pants or a watch or sneakers or a fake moustache or men who wear a bra are an abomination? No, not so much any more. I guess god isn't interested in that part of the Bible.
Maybe that Pope is lingering in Limbo - oh, I forgot, the Church eliminated Limbo when they found that 3rd world parents didn't want to be separated from their dead babies in the afterlife. Limbo? Gone! Nope, no more Limbo. Limbo bad, berry, berry bad. God don't want no more Limbo unless it's a dance in the Caribbean or tacky cruise ships.
Deuteronomy 22:5 says: “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.”
So all women who wear pants or a watch or sneakers or a fake moustache or men who wear a bra are an abomination? No, not so much any more. I guess god isn't interested in that part of the Bible.
1
Good grief. The parts of the Pope's letter that cover the remarriage of Catholics outside of the Church isn't all about a great liberal vs. conservative political schism in the Church. All he is noting, is that on the front lines there may very well be mitigating factors in the personal human condition which God would clearly understand, and that in our positions as Christians, we too should strive to understand, rather than writing people off on the strict basis of the 'Rules'. For example, if in the second marriage there are children involved and the couple are very much loving, committed people building a positive, constructive life and family with a faith in God, why wouldn't this couple and family also be living under the state of God's grace? God doesn't get bogged down in interpreting the 'rules' the same way people do, even though he gave them to us, because he already knows what lies one's heart.
57
I hope this husband is devoting as much time to his children from the first marriage as he is to those in his second. What frequently happens is that those children are ignored completely. I have seen this happen many times and it is very sad.
3
People do what they want for life styles. God has no importance in their choices.
My problem with your post is that religious people use those 'rules' to tyrannize other people. Is bestiality OK or is a rule not to be broken? How about many changing at the temples? How many laws are passed in the US because 'it's the rule of god?'
So which is it? Are rules soft things to be broken and changed over time or are they the word of god?
You want a church that is flexible but it is only flexible when it sees a chance to increase its power.
So which is it? Are rules soft things to be broken and changed over time or are they the word of god?
You want a church that is flexible but it is only flexible when it sees a chance to increase its power.
1
What do you want Ross? Doctrine? Read the reply that quoted Joyce Carol Oates. (I'm sorry not to give credit but I can't find the comment) Your symbols are more important than an evolving attitude toward humanity and its problems? The strict doctrine of the Crusades, that has turned a blind eye to the biggest pedophile ring imaginable, the doctrine that women are lesser than men? Who must breed without contraception no matter their circumstances and desires? Who now must carry a zika virus infected microcephalic child to term? What does doctrine say about a huge population of microcephalic individuals coming of age in 20 years who are unable to care for themselves? You'd better brush up on your Greek or Latin and try to figure out what the the DOCTRINAL, written in stone teachings are on that!
27
Amen.
1
...leaving the Vatican to attach to the larger, more progressive wing in any schism?
To misquote the great Molly Ivans, the debate you outline was better argued in the original Latin.
8
"he reliability of Scripture"
Just get over it. If I were to write down the things the "Scripture" says, from tattoos to pork to circumcision, all I'd be doing is repeating what anybody who's ever read the Bible has already said a thousand thousand times over.
Hierocracy abounds: from pedophile priests to Dennis Hastert, the righteous fall every day further than those of us who recognize our own weaknesses. There have always been and are married Catholic priests (Eastern Rite, converted Anglicans and Lutherans and Orthodox Catholics), there have always been and are gay priests and YES bishops (and I know firsthand of both - don't ask names b/c I won't ruin their (self-serving) "careers".
So stop it. Stop stop stop. Judge ye not lest ye be judged, and Physician, well, you know how that rolls.
Why we listen to these people who are wrong about everything I have no idea. They don't deserve the pixels they waste. We have a "better" pope today, but until we've had a pope who's been married and had kids, or has admitted he's gay and a "sinner," no reason to pay attention to people who think they're better than the rest of us, when THEY HAVEN'T A CLUE.
High horse = barf. Get over it.
Just get over it. If I were to write down the things the "Scripture" says, from tattoos to pork to circumcision, all I'd be doing is repeating what anybody who's ever read the Bible has already said a thousand thousand times over.
Hierocracy abounds: from pedophile priests to Dennis Hastert, the righteous fall every day further than those of us who recognize our own weaknesses. There have always been and are married Catholic priests (Eastern Rite, converted Anglicans and Lutherans and Orthodox Catholics), there have always been and are gay priests and YES bishops (and I know firsthand of both - don't ask names b/c I won't ruin their (self-serving) "careers".
So stop it. Stop stop stop. Judge ye not lest ye be judged, and Physician, well, you know how that rolls.
Why we listen to these people who are wrong about everything I have no idea. They don't deserve the pixels they waste. We have a "better" pope today, but until we've had a pope who's been married and had kids, or has admitted he's gay and a "sinner," no reason to pay attention to people who think they're better than the rest of us, when THEY HAVEN'T A CLUE.
High horse = barf. Get over it.
14
To be a Catholic of a sort acceptable to Ross Douthat, one need only relinquish one's intellect and allow doctrine and "the authority of tradition, the reliability of Scripture" to do one's thinking. No risk of accountability before a higher power there. On the other hand, there is considerable fear...of modernity...of ambiguity, which can only be exorcized by making sure EVERYONE strictly adheres to the correct orthodoxy as defined by immutable centuries.
Take a leap of courage, Mr. Douthat, and place a modicum of trust in Christ's actual message of love and reconciliation. Pope Frances has and it's a good thing...both for the Church and for the people who depend on the institution for support in an arbitrary and cruel world.
Take a leap of courage, Mr. Douthat, and place a modicum of trust in Christ's actual message of love and reconciliation. Pope Frances has and it's a good thing...both for the Church and for the people who depend on the institution for support in an arbitrary and cruel world.
14
It's precisely this semi-official, look-the-other-way pastoral approach that drives me crazy about the Catholic Church. Jews are regularly accused of being exclusive, but they've got nothing on the Catholics when it comes to shutting out the unwashed. If a Catholic family wants a non-Catholic to be god mother or father to their child, uh--well--er, yeah sure, no problem...just show up at the ceremony, says the Church. But the family will also need to get some real Catholics on board to be 'official' god parents and sign the book. But don't worry, the Church tells the non-Catholic god mother or father--you'll be the Real god parent...you understand how it is with rules and bylaws...you never know when there'll be an emergency. And marriage employs another type of caste system if there's a non-Catholic involved. And now here we go again with official version vs. the street version. "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways," quoth James. And so it follows that the Church destabilizes itself by speaking out of both sides of the mouth like this and spreading a Gospel of the Wink and the Nod.
8
The teaching of the Catholic Church on marriage screams hypocrisy. If a Catholic wishes to marry a Jewish man previously married and divorced by Jewish officials, a priest cannot marry the couple unless the Church annuals the Jewish marriage - which they don't recognize in the first place. Yikes!
It seems that Pope Francis is having somewhat of a crisis of faith. He recognizes hypocrisy and is trying to work through it. What ever happened to Papal Infallibility?
It seems that Pope Francis is having somewhat of a crisis of faith. He recognizes hypocrisy and is trying to work through it. What ever happened to Papal Infallibility?
7
You mean the papal infallibility that declared the sun revolves around the earth?
3
You need to brush up on your understanding on infallibility. No one has ever claimed that everything a Pope says is infallible. In fact, it has only been invoked rarely, and in relation to thinking about Mary, at that.
1
Papal infallibility is a specific doctrine that applies only to pronouncements made ex cathedra. Aside from canonization of saints, Wikipedia lists only seven instances of such pronouncements made since Pius IX made infallibility official in 1870, and all of them concern theology, not worldly matters. I doubt anyone outside the Church cares all that much about such points of doctrine as whether Mary was immaculately conceived (i.e., free of sin), or assumed bodily into Heaven, or could explain the Jansenists' friction with the Jesuits. In fact, I'm not sure too many Catholics care.
I'm an atheist, but we really need, if we're going to discuss these matters at all, to be accurate in what we're talking about.
I'm an atheist, but we really need, if we're going to discuss these matters at all, to be accurate in what we're talking about.
4
Most people in my age bracket long ago realized that all the religious magic mumbo-jumbo is a con that traditionalists use to hold on to power. In many conflicts of human rights, the Catholic Church was on the wrong side: women's rights, slavery, Nazism, sexual freedom, gay rights...the list goes on and on and on.
23
Who wants to belong to a religion wherein 'morality' can change by popular decree? If something was extremely wrong a thousand or even just 30 years ago, how can it be made 'right' today? Because people have become immoral? I stand with the Truth and the Church....same same.
3
Where in the Bible is the list showing which sins are mortal and which are not? Isn't that distinction doctrinal, and not scriptural? Why aren't the six things that Proverbs tells us are hated by God considered mortal sins by the Roman Catholic Church?
3
By this simple logic slavery, which was 'right' and 'moral' a thousand years ago should not be made 'wrong' by popular decree in more modern times. Absolutism, whether in religion or politics, is a major impediment to our evolution as a a culture.
5
Hate to break the news to you, dear, but Catholic dogma and "morality" have changed repeatedly over the years. One only has to hear the names of Jeanne d'Arc (burned to death with the acquiescence of the Church, but now canonized) and Galileo (imprisoned by the Church, but recently the recipient of an apology), to say nothing of numerous innovations in dogma, to realize that lots of things that were wrong a thousand or even just 30 years ago have been made "right" today. The notion that the Catholic version of "Truth" does not change is at most a pious ignorance.
7
How dogmatic your church is does not concern me. It's as if we had a whole column about some country club's decision to serve a different brand of tea. Go talk amongst yourselves!
21
So, why did you read it? Simply to issue criticisms?
8
Or maybe you could just skip over the articles that don't interest you.
3
Yes. The criticism of bad ideas infecting our society is a moral obligation.
Truly enjoy your writing Ross, keep up the good work!
3
Time for the Roman church to go back to the first century and start all over again.
As a first move, take the Gospel of Thomas of the “heresy” list.
www.InquiryAbraham.com
As a first move, take the Gospel of Thomas of the “heresy” list.
www.InquiryAbraham.com
4
Sigh. What qualifies Douthat to opine on the Roman Catholic Church anyway? Did the NYTimes intend to give him this platform? There's nothing Marxist about anything that His Holiness, does, says or writes, Mr. Douthat. As a faithful Roman Catholic myself, I see the Holy Spirit working through the VIcar of Christ. A.M.D.G.
11
What precisely do you mean by the term "soft hererodoxy," kemo sabe?
The recognition that some marriages break up and people move on, and a few liberal priests in urban areas are kind of nice about it? Is that too soft? The recognition that many women enjoy sex, and want to have it without getting pregnant? Are they all kind of soft? Oh ... soft.
Let's imagine that women's decisions regarding sex may be hard. Just for the sake of the experiment. Try it.
When the allegedly celibate patriarchs of the Catholic Church continue to debate the small print of their large, worldwide rules regarding consensual sexual relationships between women and men, and they grant themselves the power to authorize some couplings, and demonize others, I just want to invent a song that starts with the liquid word " CONTRA-CEPTION, CONTRA-CEPTION, CONTRA-CEPTION !!! .. " using the tune, of course, from "Maria" in West Side Story.
There should be no woman in the whole wide world who is subjected to repeated pregnancies and taught by celibates, who claim to be in touch with a benevolent, bearded God, that these babies all come down to her from God, and that she sins if she separates from her husband or denies him her favors.
Yes, religions around the world have been divided. Why? Feminism. Contraception. Look around. Smell the coffee.
The recognition that some marriages break up and people move on, and a few liberal priests in urban areas are kind of nice about it? Is that too soft? The recognition that many women enjoy sex, and want to have it without getting pregnant? Are they all kind of soft? Oh ... soft.
Let's imagine that women's decisions regarding sex may be hard. Just for the sake of the experiment. Try it.
When the allegedly celibate patriarchs of the Catholic Church continue to debate the small print of their large, worldwide rules regarding consensual sexual relationships between women and men, and they grant themselves the power to authorize some couplings, and demonize others, I just want to invent a song that starts with the liquid word " CONTRA-CEPTION, CONTRA-CEPTION, CONTRA-CEPTION !!! .. " using the tune, of course, from "Maria" in West Side Story.
There should be no woman in the whole wide world who is subjected to repeated pregnancies and taught by celibates, who claim to be in touch with a benevolent, bearded God, that these babies all come down to her from God, and that she sins if she separates from her husband or denies him her favors.
Yes, religions around the world have been divided. Why? Feminism. Contraception. Look around. Smell the coffee.
22
Roman Catholicism . . .remains officially United??? Perhaps in agreement that the last one to leave should put out the candles.
5
Well....I would be interested to know why you (or any of the readers) think the "new" center provided by Pope Francis will not hold.
1
The arc of our Church is bending toward a more loving, gentle understanding of it's teachings. The Holy Father's exhortation is a mid-course report of sort. Ross should read up on the place of the Holy Spirit in our faith. This is the same Holy Spirit who guided the elction of Francis ..not Cdl. Burke . to be he Vicer of Christ in today's wold.
So the Church finally enters the 20th Century (let's be honest, it's not quite "here" yet) and you feel the need to throw out phrases like "distinctive late-Marxist odor" when you talk about our Pope. I have a few phrases for you, one of the nicer ones is ideologue. No matter, that's not very Christian of me and I prefer to move on. So the greatest thing about free will and religion is that you can leave the Church anytime you feel it's too "marxist" for you. This Irish-Cathloc lad for one is starting to feel much more at home.
5
It's fine about scripture,I guess Douthat means scripture to be the New Teetament in the case of Catholics. But there is something that Douthat forgets,the teachings of Christ,not Paul,not many others who have tried to elaborate on Christ. Francis prefers the teachings of Christ paramount to our faith,not self righteousness. Francis wants to return to the core of our faith,Christ, not the layers of history & mistakes. Not the robes,basilicas,ceremony but the faith. So as others who understand what inclusion means,they understand what it means to have a humility to accept Christ. No baseball caps,no bumper stickers,just simple embracing we are one.
6
I am a lapsed Catholic.
In the USA we contingent of lapsed Catholics make up the third largest "religious group" in the USA. I guess I fall under atheist/agnosticism.
But that isn't quite true as I do NOT identify with ANY magical mystery tour! I just work each day keeping people healthy as possible in my medical practice. I have worked using science in diagnosing and treating my patients.
I have ONE goal to make it as close to heaven on earth for as many people as I can reach out and touch. So whether it's Doctors Without Borders, or volunteering at an Indian reservation or at free clinics in underserved areas from rural to urban--each person is EQUAL!
Every person has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Ross you and other "believers" of virgin births, oral history of a man's ascension into heaven, or folks actually thinking that they are eating and drinking the ACTUAL body and blood of a Jesus Christ are far removed from what I know about the REAL world!
A universe of 350 BILLION galaxies that contains such marvels as the CERN Large Hadron Collider and Particle Accelerator!
We live in the 21st century and yet here you are parsing the nuances on how a celibate unmarried man, a pope envisions divorce or annulment? And whether this pope ALLOWS this?
Two people in love can do WHATEVER they want that doesn't involve REAL crime. I don't care what you personally believe but you have NO right to tell others how to live.
When will we grow up?
In the USA we contingent of lapsed Catholics make up the third largest "religious group" in the USA. I guess I fall under atheist/agnosticism.
But that isn't quite true as I do NOT identify with ANY magical mystery tour! I just work each day keeping people healthy as possible in my medical practice. I have worked using science in diagnosing and treating my patients.
I have ONE goal to make it as close to heaven on earth for as many people as I can reach out and touch. So whether it's Doctors Without Borders, or volunteering at an Indian reservation or at free clinics in underserved areas from rural to urban--each person is EQUAL!
Every person has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Ross you and other "believers" of virgin births, oral history of a man's ascension into heaven, or folks actually thinking that they are eating and drinking the ACTUAL body and blood of a Jesus Christ are far removed from what I know about the REAL world!
A universe of 350 BILLION galaxies that contains such marvels as the CERN Large Hadron Collider and Particle Accelerator!
We live in the 21st century and yet here you are parsing the nuances on how a celibate unmarried man, a pope envisions divorce or annulment? And whether this pope ALLOWS this?
Two people in love can do WHATEVER they want that doesn't involve REAL crime. I don't care what you personally believe but you have NO right to tell others how to live.
When will we grow up?
26
Thank you for the work you do and for focusing on real problems in this world.
5
Nuschler,
I am glad for you that science seems to have all the answers for you. Yet, there are many others who have a firm understanding of science (CERN and all) and keen intellects, but have profound questions about what is well beyond your REAL world. In your spare moments, you may want to read some of their writings and reflections. It may, I say repectfully, help expand your views about unseen reality.
I am glad for you that science seems to have all the answers for you. Yet, there are many others who have a firm understanding of science (CERN and all) and keen intellects, but have profound questions about what is well beyond your REAL world. In your spare moments, you may want to read some of their writings and reflections. It may, I say repectfully, help expand your views about unseen reality.
2
Well said Ross! Sin is an irregularity and doctrine is an ideal. This Pope is no St John Paul II or Benedict XVI.
Thank God that Pope Francis is NOT JP II, or Benedict XVI!
4
Maybe Pope Francis's late-Marxist odor is the aroma of Christian morality. For an interesting slant on his philosophy, there's an interesting and little known book: "Be Revolutionary: Some Thoughts from Pope Francis."
5
MY mother used to say "Don't let the church get between you and God." I think Pope Francis would agree.
20
Papa Frankie is a performance artist...fun to watch.
1
Viva il Papa!! Viva il Papa!
5
Once again, Ross, you do not know what you are talking about. I suggest you take a theology course or two before your next piece trashing the "liberal wing" of the Catholic Church.
10
As far as I can tell, the 'liberal' wing of the Catholic Church is the "Old Catholics" who split away in 1870 because they were so horrified by "Papal Infallibility".
They disagree with the "Newbies" on pretty much everything: women, contraception, same-sex, female ordination.
They are the 'progressive wing' and utterly legitimate as the popes consult with them on all matters.
They are the most well-kept secret in theology. Goggle them: "Old Catholics".
They disagree with the "Newbies" on pretty much everything: women, contraception, same-sex, female ordination.
They are the 'progressive wing' and utterly legitimate as the popes consult with them on all matters.
They are the most well-kept secret in theology. Goggle them: "Old Catholics".
2
As a non-believer, I have great difficulty understanding the differences between the many different religions and their sub-groups. I have trouble understanding how much emphasis is placed on things like divorce and personal sexuality (as long as these are not exploitative of others).
I like thinking about Big Issues and I really enjoy talking with open hearted religious people about big questions. Why are we here? How should we live? How do we understand good and evil? How do different kinds of people contribute to humanity?
I just can't believe that God cares about most of the issues in Mr. Douthat's article. If God does care, this doesn't seem very god-like to me.
I like thinking about Big Issues and I really enjoy talking with open hearted religious people about big questions. Why are we here? How should we live? How do we understand good and evil? How do different kinds of people contribute to humanity?
I just can't believe that God cares about most of the issues in Mr. Douthat's article. If God does care, this doesn't seem very god-like to me.
17
Exactly. If God exists and if God is all good, it is impossible for God to care about many of the things that believers claim. They are the concerns of a petty meanspirted and egotistical being. Not an all good and loving Creator.
8
Assuming God is perfect, it's the humans who keep screwing it up, which sounds about right.....be it Christianity OR Marxism...
Mr. Douthat neglects to mention that the process of annulment is not easy for everyone. It costs money and the help of supporters who are willing to spend time traveling to and meeting and talk with church authorities. I know because I was involved in helping a family member obtain an annulment. Without my help and that of another family member, she wouldn't have been able to obtain the annulment.
Pope Francis is simply being kind and just, hallmarks of his character, in welcoming the divorced and remarried.
Pope Francis is simply being kind and just, hallmarks of his character, in welcoming the divorced and remarried.
9
Hummm.... 'annulment' appears to be the equivalent of the Henry Hyde Amendment concerning abortion: it only impacts poor women. Jesus, who never had anything to say on contraception or abortion, would be sooo proud.
4
It's also--forgive me--stupid, declaring that what happened never did. It is form without substance, and all it preserves is power: you are not wed when a priest says it, no matter what you promised, no matter that you gave your word, no matter that you had children, sex, set up housekeeping: sophistry masquerading as ideological purity.
3
It still baffles me that people would accept marriage advice from supposedly celibate, old, white men who have a tendency to molest children and organize elaborate cover-ups. Where is the outrage? Why are there still Catholics at all?
31
And yet the people who reject the Church's authority, for the reasons you name, usually declare themselves followers of a guy who didn't marry and ran around with a bunch of men. If the scriptures are to be believed, Jesus knew even less about marriage and sexuality, yet he is held up as the ultimate authority.
But there's not enough room to write an essay exploring all that.
But there's not enough room to write an essay exploring all that.
2
The Soviet analogy is apt. All revolutions end and then the survivors have to settle down to the hard work of living in the new reality which includes evolving within the new paradigm brought on by the revolution. The Soviets couldn't pull off the evolution due to corruption and cronyism and their revolution didn't even last a century. The Church has never gotten around to evolution and if anything has regressed in important ways, e.g. priests were allowed to marry for about a thousand years and I believe homosexuality was treated with greater humanity back then too. It's important to remember that doctrine and dogma are important but derivative of original teachings; they are not the teachings themselves, they are interpretations. The question of evolution is simply this: when does protecting dogma prevent living evolution? What price do we pay for tidy dogma?
6
So much of the world does not care.
5
Thomas Merton once said, "The Church is a big place. Find your place in it."
5
As a Christian, our model is Jesus. He dealt with each person as He met them. Is it really our role as humans to judge to whom God should show mercy and to whom He shouldn't? Seems to me that's a lot like what our forebears, Adam and Eve, were aiming for -- a chance to play God!
2
Jesus' message was a way of life and people made a religion out of his message. All the "Catholic" rules and codes are man made. Life is about "morality." Life is not about "mortality."
5
I find it amusing from this former Catholic that anyone pays any attention to what an old man says on how to live their life. Once you get religion out of your life, it frees you from all of these silly rules.
12
New position just marketing. What is the source of validity for his position?
4
Mr Douthat is qute a bit younger than me. Therefore i fail to understand why he has such a nasty attitude toward sex. He is almost perverse in his embrace of the anti -Human, anti Life aspects of catholic sexuality. Why? Did he have a hard time getting girlfriends in High School? I just do not get where he was so injured as to accept the deep perversion that is traditional Catholic teaching on sex. Oh, I was raised Catholic and have tremendous respect for the catholic position oin helping the poor. Sex is not something the Church gets right and Our Pope is trying to correct that. If you were 90 years old i would understand you better, Mr Douthat.
9
The "Church" perpetuated and articulated the teachings of Jesus Christ to mankind (including myself, as a discerning adult) and for that I am grateful. Realistically however, it is nothing more than a slice in the great pie of humanity, with evil-doers of every sort and angels on earth comprising its spectrum. If you embrace Christianity (or Judaism), you know that God gave man free will, to believe and to choose, and you know that Christ called out the hypocrites at every level but also showed great love, compassion, and forgiveness. Pope Francis truly shows us a man who is Christocentric. Ross is appropriately named--Doubt-that!
8
"Christ showed great love,compassion, and forgiveness", did he really.
He said believe in me and love me or you will go to a lake of fire, there to suffer -- forever.
Some love. Some compassion. Some FORGIVENESS!
He said believe in me and love me or you will go to a lake of fire, there to suffer -- forever.
Some love. Some compassion. Some FORGIVENESS!
4
When I read the Gospels from outside Christian belief, even aside from the many contradictions, I see a guy who was probably bipolar and rather like one of those robed, sandalled protestors who stalk through New Yorker cartoons with a sign reading 'The End Is Nigh!' He was certainly judgemental when it suited him. Near the end he was gripped by the delusion he was the Messiah, and went to his death believing that at any second in his ordeal God would rescue him - thus leading to his words, 'My God, why hast thou forsaken me?' The difference between Jesus and Sabbatai Zevi some 1400 years later was that Saul of Tarsus was a more effective proselytizer than Nathan of Gaza, and Jesus died, whereas Zevi converted to Islam, leaving his followers in an embarrassing position. If the Ottomans had martyred Zevi, his churches might be all over the globe today ....
2
What this "truce" amounts to, in Europe and especially in the U.S., is this: On Sundays there is no one standing at the door of the church checking your "Catholic ID"--no one checking to see if you've divorced and remarried, no one checking to see if you're in a gay relationship… So what's to stop you from entering, going to Mass, singing the hymns, taking communion? Principles, doctrine, encyclicals? Self-examination? On what basis?
This is not a church; it's a club--a little like Kiwanis, or the K of C. You already know the basic club rules. So what if Rome is always tinkering with some of the by-laws! If I joined the club since--well, before I can remember--aren't I still a member? Why not? I pay club dues--every Sunday, don't I?
Sound cynical? Ask yourself if most U.S. Catholics don't think this way?
This is not a church; it's a club--a little like Kiwanis, or the K of C. You already know the basic club rules. So what if Rome is always tinkering with some of the by-laws! If I joined the club since--well, before I can remember--aren't I still a member? Why not? I pay club dues--every Sunday, don't I?
Sound cynical? Ask yourself if most U.S. Catholics don't think this way?
3
Some centers ought not hold.
6
Your church is having a civil war? Now I remember why I stopped going to church.
8
Russell: your position is the utopian one, disconnected from truth. Francis knows imperfect humans must live in the tension between what is and what ought to be. There is no perfection inside history your dogma is capable of producing.. Those like you who insist there is are the real problem that is tearing our religious and political lives apart.
It is incongruous for a conservative in the Catholic church to dispute the teachings of the Pontiff. Listen, surely you can hear the Holy Spirit in his words.
Christ welcomed all who would listen, the Church must surely do the same.
Christ welcomed all who would listen, the Church must surely do the same.
3
The letter killeth, the spirit giveth life. It seems Francis has not lost sight of this wise Biblical teaching. Would that our current "conservatives," religious and political, had not forsaken that deep truth.
6
Unlike you, I am very grateful to this Pope. For one thing, (as my Catholic friend in the coffee shop today said), he is encouraging people to use their brains as opposed to letting the priests do all the thinking. For another, he is bringing up the most important teaching of Jesus (in my view), which is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Of everything I learned, and was made to memorize, in Sunday school, this is the one that sticks with me the most.
9
Please stop being so judgmental! Francis is trying to get the pious Catholics to stop acting like the outraged older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Jesus taught and his whole life demonstrated mercy and love. Forget the dogmatic legalism. God is love.
11
Is there ever a column on the Catrholic Church written by Mr. Douthat that doesn't talk about "civil war." There is no war in the Church, Mr. Douthat. There are disagreements as to interpretation of various aspect of Church teaching, but there is no war.
The first thing Jesus said to his apostles after his resurrection was "Peace." Your choice of language is not helpful in the least.
The first thing Jesus said to his apostles after his resurrection was "Peace." Your choice of language is not helpful in the least.
9
"Modernity has left nearly every religious tradition in the Western World divided."
Noooo.... "Ethics" has been the divider on every religion in the entire world, always has, always will. You see, there are some people who expect their religion to be ethical, to be fair, to be encouraging and supportive, to be a delight, to be respectful of humans and helpful.
These people who want their religion "ethical" have no use for jihad, crusade, demonizing women, forcing women to be simple breeders, or the criminal element that rapes children. They simply won't tolerate it. People don't stay with religions that have a criminal element. They either find another religion or become atheist.
Nor can any religion become too personal. Tell me that I must have a child a year, every year, and I will politely remind you that my 'child-bearing years' lasted 37 years. Really? 37 children? Me and every other woman, too?
Get real.
No, I mean that literally, Ross.
You need to come into the real world, you and all those churches that you listed that are at war with themselves and other churches.
The 'wars' of religion that are going on are "ethical" wars.... and your church, like so many others, is losing big. No, many are NOT waiting for the Church(es) to "evolve". They have already waited. They waited in vain. And they went home and they stay there.
How many words did you write, Ross?
And not one word on the crime of raping a child.
Shame on you.
And that is "ethics".
Noooo.... "Ethics" has been the divider on every religion in the entire world, always has, always will. You see, there are some people who expect their religion to be ethical, to be fair, to be encouraging and supportive, to be a delight, to be respectful of humans and helpful.
These people who want their religion "ethical" have no use for jihad, crusade, demonizing women, forcing women to be simple breeders, or the criminal element that rapes children. They simply won't tolerate it. People don't stay with religions that have a criminal element. They either find another religion or become atheist.
Nor can any religion become too personal. Tell me that I must have a child a year, every year, and I will politely remind you that my 'child-bearing years' lasted 37 years. Really? 37 children? Me and every other woman, too?
Get real.
No, I mean that literally, Ross.
You need to come into the real world, you and all those churches that you listed that are at war with themselves and other churches.
The 'wars' of religion that are going on are "ethical" wars.... and your church, like so many others, is losing big. No, many are NOT waiting for the Church(es) to "evolve". They have already waited. They waited in vain. And they went home and they stay there.
How many words did you write, Ross?
And not one word on the crime of raping a child.
Shame on you.
And that is "ethics".
26
I read the entire piece exchanging the words "stupid" for "conservative" and "intelligent" for "liberal" and I believe the story remains the same.
11
Ross, an interesting move you make, blaming Pope Francis for "transforming the papacy’s keenest defenders into wary critics." Funny how conservatives were enthusiastic champions of the pope's authority...as long as the pope was conservative. Faced with Francis, you and your fellow conservatives tie yourselves into knots, in order to question papal authority. In doing so, you contradict your own ecclesiology. It is you, not Francis, who are "bound to ideological precepts" that you're "no longer confident can really, truly work."
12
This discussion, which comes down to whether either Ratzinger's orthodoxy (I don't care if you like our teachings) or Bergoglio's liberalism (I want us all to be able to be a Catholic) , will help the Church, seems rather irrelevant to our part of the world. This fight is over a Church in decline. Younger people do not follow either path in large enough numbers, spelling doom. My hope is that the dark veil, that is Islam, will not come and cover us, as it has in other parts of the world.
3
Douthat is content and feels safe in a Church that bars the door to sinners. He wrongly thinks this meanness is based in the Jesus of scripture. What he is angry about is a pope who doesn't carry the "Devout Catholic " ID card and still walks around at the Church Militant Barbecue. Yes, Ross would love a Church that kicked out sinners and kept them kicked out, where the priests who opened the door to them were the ones yelled at, where lack of doctrinal doubt was the greatest possible good. Where kindness and a seat at the table were symptoms only of the plague of liberal laxity rather than kindness and a seat at the table.
7
Why is the Catholic Church obsessed with sex? Jesus's teachings had nothing to do with sex. Pope Francis should reverse the Churches ban on contraception which would lead to many fewer abortions and allow couples to control their own fertility without the treat of committing a sin.
11
Let's end celibacy while we're at it.
8
You'd have to read St. Augustine in particular but other Church Fathers like Jerome, to find the answer to that. They founded an entirely new theological doctrine that ordained that, although the material world per se was not inherently evil, the flesh was.
3
Um ... they already have ... a long time ago. They just don't admit it or even talk about it.
1
"But not one, I fear, that’s likely to permanently hold."
Hate to tell you this, Mr. Douthat, but the Catholic Church is not permanent either. Nor is the human species, nor the planet, nor the sun. Get used to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_the_Earth
Hate to tell you this, Mr. Douthat, but the Catholic Church is not permanent either. Nor is the human species, nor the planet, nor the sun. Get used to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_the_Earth
12
Why does the dervish whirl? What is his inspiration? Why do Catholics whirl from Mass to Confession and to the other places the Church declares to be holy? The Church has a problem. Fewer and fewer of Catholics are whirling these days. Why? The Church has become more interested in the nitty-gritty of Christianity than in the inspiration. It has allowed the nitty gritty of Christianity to dilute the inspiration. The Church has become so bogged down in the nitty-gritty of Christianity that it cannot climb out of it and ascend the holy mountain (Isaiah 2:2-4) to help us to explore the mystery, majesty and magnificence of God. The Church is either a petty despot who reigns absolute over the nitty-gritty of Christianity or the tour guide who helps us explore the mystery, majesty and magnificence of God. It is difficult for the Church to be both. Pope Francis prefers the Church as tour guide more concerned with the inspiration than the nitty gritty. Pope Francis wants to put the nitty-girtty of Christianity behind us so we can focus on the inspiration. What is the inspiration of Christianity? Behold, in twenty-two words, the crux of Christianity. We tortured and killed him. He suffered and died. Yet, he did not stay dead and he did not stop loving us. Can Christianity be expressed more succinctly? That he did not stay dead is the proof that Jesus is God. That he did not stop loving us is the proof that divinity is love - a love so profligate that it extends to sinners like us.
2
Great post when you substitute "inspiration" with "delusion".
3
So what Mr Douthat is saying is that the only religious position of consequence is integrism (after all this is the word of God(s) we are speaking of) ; unfortunately many people (Christians, Jews, Muslims) agree.
For the rest of us, an excellent reason to stay away
For the rest of us, an excellent reason to stay away
7
Pope Francis, thank God, always speaks from his heart, utilizing as well a superior intellect, direct , personal, hard won experience, and a true sense of what forgiveness is. "Church doctrine," has been created (read "concocted") by men, period, and it reeks of human fallibility. Doctrine does not matter. It has nothing to do with ultimate truth, nor is it in some way a path to salvation. Francis knows this, and simply ignores it, as it should be ignored. For those priests and laypeople who have relied on doctrine, pity. And to those that cling to it and abuse others with their prideful claims to authority, shame.
As far as the specific issue of marriage, divorce, and the blessed sacrament: the Roman Catholic Church, as a human institution, has had two thousand years to confront and address human sexual love. It has not done so. To claim any authority over this issue as belonging to unmarried male priests, and to not have addressed the issue as a whole, is a vast, monstrous sin against God and humanity.
I am a Catholic, a member of the mystical body of Christ, by the grace of God.
I am twice divorced and receive the sacrament regularly. I have not nor will I seek "permission" to receive holy communion from any priestly authority, which I consider, like the atrociously phony process of annulment, a violation of the primal gift of God to human beings, the sacred spirit of individual existence.
As far as the specific issue of marriage, divorce, and the blessed sacrament: the Roman Catholic Church, as a human institution, has had two thousand years to confront and address human sexual love. It has not done so. To claim any authority over this issue as belonging to unmarried male priests, and to not have addressed the issue as a whole, is a vast, monstrous sin against God and humanity.
I am a Catholic, a member of the mystical body of Christ, by the grace of God.
I am twice divorced and receive the sacrament regularly. I have not nor will I seek "permission" to receive holy communion from any priestly authority, which I consider, like the atrociously phony process of annulment, a violation of the primal gift of God to human beings, the sacred spirit of individual existence.
13
". . . a true sense of what forgiveness is"?
Does the true sense of forgiveness square with sending over half of all humanity to a
"lake of fire" there to suffer FOREVER?
Where is the love and mercy in that?
Does the true sense of forgiveness square with sending over half of all humanity to a
"lake of fire" there to suffer FOREVER?
Where is the love and mercy in that?
3
It is frustrating that Ross seems to be positioned as the Times designated traditional Catholic mouthpiece. What purports to be analysis turns into just another cry against though and mercy. What did you expect to Pope to say during the Year of Mercy he has proclaimed? That large numbers of the faithful are second class? That's not a Marxist odor it's the smell of stale air exiting the door.
5
Why not just declare the See of Peter vacant, Douthat? That's what you really mean. The present "pope" is actually some sort of theological fraud. "True" Catholics should hit the bunkers.
In reality, the spirit has overruled the letter countless times in Catholic history. A small (and ironic) sample: usury (once doctrinally forbidden), purgatory (invented out of whole cloth, later repudiated), annulment (f/k/a divorce), anti-semitism (once heartily endorsed, later repudiated), stealing Jewish children (cf. Edgardo Mortara), the Papal States (once grounds for excommunication, now an embarrassment swept under the rug), democracy (read the condemnation of "Modernism"), modernity in general (ditto), Masontry (once grounds for excommunication), the Index of Prohibited Books (also grounds for excommunication, now anpther embarrassment), and on and on. Didn't the nuns teach you anything?
In reality, the spirit has overruled the letter countless times in Catholic history. A small (and ironic) sample: usury (once doctrinally forbidden), purgatory (invented out of whole cloth, later repudiated), annulment (f/k/a divorce), anti-semitism (once heartily endorsed, later repudiated), stealing Jewish children (cf. Edgardo Mortara), the Papal States (once grounds for excommunication, now an embarrassment swept under the rug), democracy (read the condemnation of "Modernism"), modernity in general (ditto), Masontry (once grounds for excommunication), the Index of Prohibited Books (also grounds for excommunication, now anpther embarrassment), and on and on. Didn't the nuns teach you anything?
6
Glad you brought up Edgardo Mortara. That was the case that defined "Papal Infallibility", that even a Pope could steal a child, live with him and no one could say otherwise. That was when the "Old Catholics" walked, a schism that lasts to today. Today the Old Catholics are world's apart from the New Catholics on contraception, women, same-sex and the priesthood.
1
I do not know why I even read your article on the catholic religion since I believe all religions belong in the dustbin of history. Unfortunately, we still have true believers, aka religious fundamentalists, which I believe is just another way of saying “a close-minded intolerant bigot.”
The only biblical quote of any significance is, “Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you,” which if we all followed the world would be a much better place.
The only biblical quote of any significance is, “Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you,” which if we all followed the world would be a much better place.
7
I am not Catholic, yet I am always fascinated by your columns on this subject, especially your implications that the Catholic Church may be teetering on schism. I think the profound historical significance of this struggle within the Catholic Church is lost on most people, even the relatively educated readers of the Times, who are focused on parochial politics and anti-religious screeds. While I personally reject the Pope’s claim to be the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Christ, I recognize that the Papacy or Bishop of Rome for the Catholic Church is probably the most enduring institution on the face of the Earth. Your analysis, which I look to as informed and incisive, suggests that the latest development in this saga, the Pope’s letter on marriage and family, is somewhat anticlimactic, portending slow erosion of Catholic religious authority rather than civil war. I will tell you however, that though I am as conservative as you are (but with no emotion invested in the outcome), I am not fully convinced that your Pope has betrayed your values. If he possesses the inherent wisdom as imbued by the Holy Spirit that you doctrinally believe he does, then perhaps he is bringing millions of Catholics into fuller fellowship with the Catholic Church, without explicitly rejecting the Church’s doctrine, but in a way that will eventually lead many to embrace the doctrinal foundations of your Church.
2
Who cares about a medieval institution that should have died of its own a corruptions a half a millennium ago? Ross just join a monastery and spare of those of who moved into the 21st century your drivel.
5
Ross Douthat has adroitly nailed the essence of what has happened in the Catholic Church over the last half century since Vatican Council II.
Pope Benedict XVI said that "We are living in the shadow of The Enlightenment" and the papacy of Francis is evidence of the new Dark Ages of Modernism and Relativism.
The Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X is a Traditional Group of Latin Rite Vatican Council I Catholics and this group is growing tremendously worldwide as people realize the loss of the Sacred within the Pope Francis church.
The Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X is now the "Sensus Fidei" True Catholic Church that will lead the world back to truth.
Pope Benedict XVI said that "We are living in the shadow of The Enlightenment" and the papacy of Francis is evidence of the new Dark Ages of Modernism and Relativism.
The Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X is a Traditional Group of Latin Rite Vatican Council I Catholics and this group is growing tremendously worldwide as people realize the loss of the Sacred within the Pope Francis church.
The Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X is now the "Sensus Fidei" True Catholic Church that will lead the world back to truth.
1
Vindication (what's with the all caps, anyway?),
You realize that the time when the Church actually had "ascendancy" is now called the "Dark Ages," right? Why do you think that is?
You realize that the time when the Church actually had "ascendancy" is now called the "Dark Ages," right? Why do you think that is?
2
Mr. Douthat misses the message because he hasn't removed the ideological plank from his eye. Anyone with common sense knows that Pope Francis is no liberal.
"Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”
"Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”
3
As a recovering Catholic, I now find the underlying notion of this article pretty silly.
10
Mr. Douthat writes: "But not one, I fear, that’s likely to permanently hold."
And what, pray you, is supposed to "permanently hold"? As you know, everything evolves, at least on Earth, and so do our customs. Even uber-conservatives do not live like the characters in the Bible. And I know plenty of Catholics who sanctimoniously judge others' morals who have remarried two or three times, previous marriages mysteriously annulled. Newt Gingrich is a prime example: does he get communion? There's a word that describes this kind of intolerant, conservative, judgemental Catholic: hypocrite. Most conservative live their lives according to the following dictum: Do as I say, not as I do.
And what, pray you, is supposed to "permanently hold"? As you know, everything evolves, at least on Earth, and so do our customs. Even uber-conservatives do not live like the characters in the Bible. And I know plenty of Catholics who sanctimoniously judge others' morals who have remarried two or three times, previous marriages mysteriously annulled. Newt Gingrich is a prime example: does he get communion? There's a word that describes this kind of intolerant, conservative, judgemental Catholic: hypocrite. Most conservative live their lives according to the following dictum: Do as I say, not as I do.
12
Douthat really sees the world in just two categories: liberal and conservative, with the latter being right almost all the time. You'd think that the utter silliness of the Republican party would make him reconsider his dichotomous view. But alas no it apparently hasn't. He brings this view to the Church as well. Seeing two warring factions within the Roman Catholic community and Francis holding sway for the liberals. He cannot conceive of anything transcending his left right worldview. Douthat is completely and utterly captive to this narrative. His ethos is that of a fundamentalist Protestant. Many Catholic converts from evangelicalism are like this. They have rejected Protestant dogmas like sola scriptura but see the Church as their new source of certainty. Thankfully most Church leaders are more thoughtful than Douthat. Apart from Francis, think also of Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople. Both bring men bring together fidelity to the Church's tradition whilst embodying the empathy and compassion of Christ. Douthat? Well he is closer to a Calvinist Presbyterian than to a Catholic. Sorry Ross. The Christian world is passing you by. Welcome to the fringes
3
The Goldwater Catholics are threatening to hijack the conventions. This reads like the son who explains to the family that he has outgrown them in worldly goods and by golly the youngest sister and her troubles are making it easier for him to leave, although he never does.
4
I am not surprised that the one devout Catholic NYT columnist did not mention the Yuge news that exactly 1 presidential candidate has been invited next week to talk at the Vatican. The subjects are income inequality and global warming. The pope has talked extensively on these issues.
Climate change and income inequality are (IMHO) vastly more important than discussing how consistent the Roman Catholic church is or should be on subjects that have been viewed differently over the decades and centuries. Homosexuality got it's bad name with the Biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah. 1100 years ago, priests didn't have to be celibate. It is only in the last 500 years that marriages become more than personal vows and/or business contracts. 400 years ago Galileo was excommunicated for saying the planets orbit the sun. On a longer time scale, the church has never been consistent.
You know what? If we don't do something about income inequality, and the related and more important climate change, nobody in 1000, or even 50 years is going to give a rat's behind if this pope gave a little bit more leeway to Catholics who got divorced.
I know the Times has a severe anti-Sanders bias and you're trying to shut down the messages of Mr. Sanders' campaign. Maybe you could think about the planet and the people that will being trying to inhabit it in the near future rather than just increasing your profits. Keep in mind, New York will be under water too.
06:00 EST (43 comments)
Climate change and income inequality are (IMHO) vastly more important than discussing how consistent the Roman Catholic church is or should be on subjects that have been viewed differently over the decades and centuries. Homosexuality got it's bad name with the Biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah. 1100 years ago, priests didn't have to be celibate. It is only in the last 500 years that marriages become more than personal vows and/or business contracts. 400 years ago Galileo was excommunicated for saying the planets orbit the sun. On a longer time scale, the church has never been consistent.
You know what? If we don't do something about income inequality, and the related and more important climate change, nobody in 1000, or even 50 years is going to give a rat's behind if this pope gave a little bit more leeway to Catholics who got divorced.
I know the Times has a severe anti-Sanders bias and you're trying to shut down the messages of Mr. Sanders' campaign. Maybe you could think about the planet and the people that will being trying to inhabit it in the near future rather than just increasing your profits. Keep in mind, New York will be under water too.
06:00 EST (43 comments)
5
Ross's understanding of Catholic doctrine is as good as his understanding of the Constitution. He is an originalist. He believes that he knows what the original intent of the Founder(s) was. By certain criteria, he is entitled to his beliefs. In public, he and his "conservative" friends are in a lurch.
"There is still a formal teaching that remarriage without an annulment is adultery, that adultery is a mortal sin, that people who persist in mortal sins should not receive communion." is an example of that confusion.
Jesus never mentioned or discussed "mortal sin", always promoted forgiveness and mercy. Confronted with adultery he turned the savage mob away from stoning "a woman caught in adultery" by writing in the dirt. The Pope, whom we are invited to disrespect because of purported Marxist concern for the poor, has written about mercy and forgiveness and been chastised for offending the "conservatives" who demand a strict originalist doctrine. The original, Jesus, only condemnations were: "(pedophiles and their protectors) better that a millstone were tied around their necks....and thrown into the sea" and then "you did not feed me....give me drink...when you refused to help the least....you did to me'
“And they will go away into eternal punishment." Sounds like the original condemns the conservative defenders of wealth and power, and protectors of pedophiles?
Of note, the "conservatives" persist in hiding pedophiles, to avoid scandal, and deliberately harm the poor.
"There is still a formal teaching that remarriage without an annulment is adultery, that adultery is a mortal sin, that people who persist in mortal sins should not receive communion." is an example of that confusion.
Jesus never mentioned or discussed "mortal sin", always promoted forgiveness and mercy. Confronted with adultery he turned the savage mob away from stoning "a woman caught in adultery" by writing in the dirt. The Pope, whom we are invited to disrespect because of purported Marxist concern for the poor, has written about mercy and forgiveness and been chastised for offending the "conservatives" who demand a strict originalist doctrine. The original, Jesus, only condemnations were: "(pedophiles and their protectors) better that a millstone were tied around their necks....and thrown into the sea" and then "you did not feed me....give me drink...when you refused to help the least....you did to me'
“And they will go away into eternal punishment." Sounds like the original condemns the conservative defenders of wealth and power, and protectors of pedophiles?
Of note, the "conservatives" persist in hiding pedophiles, to avoid scandal, and deliberately harm the poor.
10
Who are these conservative Catholics that wish to deny communion to their neighbors in the pews simply because they are divorcees? You will be hard pressed to find many parishioners who agree with this Doctrine. Pope Frances merely sees the writing on the walls. Why insist on doctrine that most are willing to ignore and that is pushing some out the door. The old white mail hierarchy is always one step behind what is happening in the pews and this is just one more example.
6
The great commandments of love thy neighbor was not new to Jews of Christ's time. A more pithy enunciation of it by Rabbi Hillel preceded Christ by a generation. He was asked by a potential gentile convert to Judaism that he would convert if Hillel could teach him the message of Torah in the time he could stand on one foot.
In an earlier encounter, the gentile had been chased away by Rabbi Shammai who found the challenge offensive and it was incomprehensible on anyone could teach the Torah in such a brief time.
Hillel did not take offense. His response was: "Do not do to other what is offensive to yourself." All the rest is commentary. Now go study" The Gentile converted.
It was in the next generation that Christ appeared and to his enunciation of the two great commandments (love of God and love of neighbor): " On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Francis is only following in the footsteps of Jesus – and Hillel. The commandment of love is the only path for all humanity including Catholic Christians, like myself. It is also the only thing that will save humanity from an impending apocalypse of selfishness being caused by selfish, unloving, exploitation of the environment. Francis is way ahead of the curve on that one too.
John Klotz
http://johnklotz.blogspot.com
In an earlier encounter, the gentile had been chased away by Rabbi Shammai who found the challenge offensive and it was incomprehensible on anyone could teach the Torah in such a brief time.
Hillel did not take offense. His response was: "Do not do to other what is offensive to yourself." All the rest is commentary. Now go study" The Gentile converted.
It was in the next generation that Christ appeared and to his enunciation of the two great commandments (love of God and love of neighbor): " On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Francis is only following in the footsteps of Jesus – and Hillel. The commandment of love is the only path for all humanity including Catholic Christians, like myself. It is also the only thing that will save humanity from an impending apocalypse of selfishness being caused by selfish, unloving, exploitation of the environment. Francis is way ahead of the curve on that one too.
John Klotz
http://johnklotz.blogspot.com
8
You try valiantly to frame this as a battle of ideas and ideals. But ultimately, it is all about raw politics and power, with precious little concern for the real people and real lives out their in the pews. And ironically, moral authority based solely on orthodoxy will provide little in the way of effective or lasting leadership.
7
Why is Ross so tied up with matters Roman Catholic orthodoxy? I like the old saying that orthodoxy is my doxy while heterodoxy is your doxy. All full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
If the great intellectual pundit who writes for the paper of record would take the scientific approach to thinking and look at the evidence, he would realize that man created god and god did not create man. If he disagrees, he should come up with some reasonable evidence to prove otherwise. His whole diatribe is much ado about nothing.
If the great intellectual pundit who writes for the paper of record would take the scientific approach to thinking and look at the evidence, he would realize that man created god and god did not create man. If he disagrees, he should come up with some reasonable evidence to prove otherwise. His whole diatribe is much ado about nothing.
7
Conservatives follow so many rules and traditions, yet seem to be ignoring those associated with the Pontiff's role in guiding the Church. I guess they are already embracing the ideas of individual conscience and selective acceptance of doctrine
9
I this as Francis' way of admitting that Catholic Church annulments are a farce- Princesses in Monaco or Kennedy family members used to get them- a wink to the privileged.
If one had money and the stamina to go through pages of forms and insulting interviews by priests, one could get years of marriage declared null and void so one might get remarried in the Catholic Church.
My marriage has prospered more than 40 years, but my allegiance to the Catholic Church expired decades ago. One does learn to sniff out hypocrisy as one ages.
If one had money and the stamina to go through pages of forms and insulting interviews by priests, one could get years of marriage declared null and void so one might get remarried in the Catholic Church.
My marriage has prospered more than 40 years, but my allegiance to the Catholic Church expired decades ago. One does learn to sniff out hypocrisy as one ages.
12
To misquote the great Molly Ivans, the debate you outline was better argued in the original Latin. But that was taken care of during the last Catholic truce and nobody wants to go back to that conservative, patriarchal and distancing way of approaching Christ's teachings.
1
You lost me at the first sentence. More precisely: The enlightenment has rendered religion useless as a way to explain how the world works.
2
Mr. Douthat, you are missing the most salient theological dilemma faced by your church, and it does not involve marriage by any definition.
The foundation of Catholic doctrine (as taught to me during my years in Catholic school) is concise: Jesus was divinely ordained as the the blood sacrifice in 'payment' to enact Redemption for Original Sin committed by Adam and Eve. That's the deal.
But the reality of evolution, acknowledged by two previous popes, nullifies this theology. This is your real problem. No Eden, no Adam and consort, no 'original sin', and the entire pretension of repayment through blood sacrifice is voided. That is the deal breaker.
Your battle is not with liberals, or Pope Francis, or the 'devil'. It is with reality. Deal with it.
The foundation of Catholic doctrine (as taught to me during my years in Catholic school) is concise: Jesus was divinely ordained as the the blood sacrifice in 'payment' to enact Redemption for Original Sin committed by Adam and Eve. That's the deal.
But the reality of evolution, acknowledged by two previous popes, nullifies this theology. This is your real problem. No Eden, no Adam and consort, no 'original sin', and the entire pretension of repayment through blood sacrifice is voided. That is the deal breaker.
Your battle is not with liberals, or Pope Francis, or the 'devil'. It is with reality. Deal with it.
4
These ' religious traditions' are divided because their truth claims - the important ones - are not historically and/or scientifically true. It's as simple as that.
1
Theoretically if God made this world, and the world has been changing since the day he created it, shouldn't change be embraced? Isn't flexibility the characteristic God gave humans to survive? God also gave most of us an enlightenment chip in our brains so that we could evolve and change. It is such a disservice to Catholic parishioners that the Catholic hierarchy is stuck in the dark ages.
1
Would Mr. Douthat mind reading the actual Gospel instead of the Book of Dolan. Post-Resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples and explicitly gave them authority to both "bind"and "loose" us, sinners all, in terms receiving Him in the Sacraments. Arch-Conservatives the Church conveniently leave out the "loosening" part. As one critic of Francis's latest Message of Mercy put it, when it comes to divorced and remarried Catholics, he's "letting them off the hook" -- sounds like "loosening" to me. I guess Mr. Douthat prefers the
alternatives: annulments which depend on denying the reality of the first marriage in terms of original capacity to commit -- a convenient, legalistic fiction in most cases, and generally available only to those who can pay for the process until recently; living a sexless second marriage; or returning to the first spouse! Like so many Conservatives, Mr. Douthat is happy to explain what he is against, but awfully quiet about what he is for (see above alternatives). And isn't it noteworthy, as a Boston College professor pointed out, that Pope Francis never mentions in his document the anti-birth control edict of Humane Vitae: not once! Surprising in a apostolic exhortation addressed to the essence of what makes a "family" sacred, isn't it. As the prof pointed out, the Church never did admit the earth is round, but just stopped saying it is flat. Now there's a truce to be reckoned with staying power.
alternatives: annulments which depend on denying the reality of the first marriage in terms of original capacity to commit -- a convenient, legalistic fiction in most cases, and generally available only to those who can pay for the process until recently; living a sexless second marriage; or returning to the first spouse! Like so many Conservatives, Mr. Douthat is happy to explain what he is against, but awfully quiet about what he is for (see above alternatives). And isn't it noteworthy, as a Boston College professor pointed out, that Pope Francis never mentions in his document the anti-birth control edict of Humane Vitae: not once! Surprising in a apostolic exhortation addressed to the essence of what makes a "family" sacred, isn't it. As the prof pointed out, the Church never did admit the earth is round, but just stopped saying it is flat. Now there's a truce to be reckoned with staying power.
2
No religion has any truce with nonbelief now will any ever have. It is simply grounded in the supernatural and will always have an unchallengeable allegiance to it.
2
Nonsense. I challenge the supernatural all the time to prove its existence.
Not a peep in reply.
Not a peep in reply.
1
Regardless of one's ideological level, all Catholics come together in their love of Christ. That is the one common denominator and, ultimately, the only one that counts.
1
Let's put the matter succinctly. Pope Francis only accentuated and highlighted the divisions in the Catholic Church with his latest anti-marriage document. First he redid the annulment procedure to make it free and easy. Now with his 'Joy of Love (sex)' tome he has given permission (licensed) in a roundabout way those in irregular (sinful) situations to feel comforted and welcome to Communion. With these actions Francis has become the anti-marriage Pope. Divorce will surely increase, divisions will widen, the Church's credibility will further deteriorate and become even more Protestant than it already is. What was he thinking?? Was he thinking??
God cannot be pleased.
God cannot be pleased.
1
Pope Francis suggests we have humility for ourselves and compassion for others.
Pope Francis suggests the most important function of Catholic clergy is to minister to the people, to offer a healing hand, even for people who are different.
Pope Douthat speaks of politics and liberals and conservatives and doctrines and truces.
Pope Douthat speaks of imposing views on others as decided by doctrines.
Which vision of the church do I prefer?
I'll take Pope Francis, thank you very much.
Pope Francis suggests the most important function of Catholic clergy is to minister to the people, to offer a healing hand, even for people who are different.
Pope Douthat speaks of politics and liberals and conservatives and doctrines and truces.
Pope Douthat speaks of imposing views on others as decided by doctrines.
Which vision of the church do I prefer?
I'll take Pope Francis, thank you very much.
3
I'm my mother's first son. She had ten more sons and four daughters. As a child in the early 1960s, I overheard my aunt asking my mother, 'If the Pope approves the pill, will you take it?'
'Yes.'
He didn't. My mother stuck to the Pope's doctrine. Whether almost annual childbearing and rearing 15 children in conditions just a nostril above the poverty line contributed to her death at the age of 47 (of cancer), I don't know.
I do know that, however it is now dressed up by the Church, it all comes down to marketing. From the concession of dropping the latin mass way back when, all the way to today, they are simply trying to stem the tide of abandonment.
Conservative, Liberal, blah, blah, blah...it's marketing, folks, pure and simple (well, maybe not so pure).
'Yes.'
He didn't. My mother stuck to the Pope's doctrine. Whether almost annual childbearing and rearing 15 children in conditions just a nostril above the poverty line contributed to her death at the age of 47 (of cancer), I don't know.
I do know that, however it is now dressed up by the Church, it all comes down to marketing. From the concession of dropping the latin mass way back when, all the way to today, they are simply trying to stem the tide of abandonment.
Conservative, Liberal, blah, blah, blah...it's marketing, folks, pure and simple (well, maybe not so pure).
8
The Catholic Church, even Pope Francis, still considers women to be inferior lesser beings.
And meanwhile, Evangelicals continue to try and push us all back to the Middle Ages.
Religion once again proves to be the most disrupting agent in society.
And meanwhile, Evangelicals continue to try and push us all back to the Middle Ages.
Religion once again proves to be the most disrupting agent in society.
10
"The specific issues vary with the faith, but there is an essential sameness"
That sameness is women and sex and power and control. When you look deeply, it pretty much gets down to that.
That sameness is women and sex and power and control. When you look deeply, it pretty much gets down to that.
10
It is my understanding (very much subject to correction!) that the Orthodox Churches have something like the same position...marriage is indissoluble...except when it isn't. You get at least one free pass, one divorce and remarriage.
I understand that this is not new, but dates back to the very cozy relationship of the Orthodox Churches with the State in the East. Kings and Czars, apparently, needed divorces occasionally for reasons of state (or, whatever) and the Churches obliged.
I understand that this is not new, but dates back to the very cozy relationship of the Orthodox Churches with the State in the East. Kings and Czars, apparently, needed divorces occasionally for reasons of state (or, whatever) and the Churches obliged.
4
Pope Francis took a secondary issue and said "follow your conscience." Ross is happy because he thinks this means he does not have to feel guilty about birth control. But the pope expressly reaffirmed the church's opposition to all forms of "artificial" contraception. While this will not affect educated Catholics in the US, it will have devastating consequences among the poor in South America, now faced with Zika. South American bishops are opposed to the state providing birth control to the poor there, and they have tremendous power. In his attempt to appease the conservative hierarchy the pope has done great harm.
8
More babble from the church. Until the church opens its doors to those Jesus would have placed at the head of his table, the exodus will continue. The Word of the Lord is not intended to be dispensed by the church from an eye dropper, a drop and drip here and there to whatever the churches leadership think will keep them in their pews. That is not the expression of love and acceptance Jesus preached. Maybe one day there will be a Pope who has the courage of the long ago Christians in the Coliseum who had the faith to withstand the crowd.
4
Gotta watch out for Jesus though. If people like me cannot bring ourselves to believe something we profoundly disbelieve, we have (according to Jesus) an ugly surprise waiting for us when we die.
Oh, and that goes for another 5 billion or so alive on this planet today who totally reject the notion that Jesus is their "savior." Only 33 percent of our little planet's inhabitants believe that nonsense and half of them (Catholics) believe the other half (Protestants) are gonna be fricasseed, while Protestants believe the same about Catholics.
Oh, and that goes for another 5 billion or so alive on this planet today who totally reject the notion that Jesus is their "savior." Only 33 percent of our little planet's inhabitants believe that nonsense and half of them (Catholics) believe the other half (Protestants) are gonna be fricasseed, while Protestants believe the same about Catholics.
3
I can't believe I'm reading this in the New York Times in 2016. It seems to me that at its core, the Catholic Church is lacking in any charity, wrestling to subdue human nature. Human nature is tough to deal with and the Catholic Church may finally facing the fact (at least in publicly). I can only compare it to the current Republican Party, adhere to my rules (those rules being anything but compassionate) or go to Hell.
5
My father, a nonetheless devout Catholic, always referred to the Church as,"2,000 years of tradition unhindered by progress."
Pope Francis, bless his soul, is trying to let in a little progress. God bless him for that.
Francis' letter blesses the efforts of many priests such as myself to welcome everyone to the banquet table. I say it is about time!
Pope Francis, bless his soul, is trying to let in a little progress. God bless him for that.
Francis' letter blesses the efforts of many priests such as myself to welcome everyone to the banquet table. I say it is about time!
9
Such a big kerfuffle over nothing, Ross! Why? Because very few Catholics are paying attention to all the rules and regs of the institutional church that make government bureaucracy look tidy. Instead most of us are just trying to love and care for one another.
Where is Christopher Hitchens when we need him! RIP, dear man. He said that religion poisons everything. What would he say today about the bible thumpers like Ted Cruz.
Little wrapped in the cloak of religion is holy. "The last refuge of a scoundrel is politics." Can't recall who said that but it needs to be amended to "The last refuge of a scoundrel is politics wrapped in religion." And Mr. Douthat makes an art form of it defending what is indefensible about his church and the GOP.
Where is Christopher Hitchens when we need him! RIP, dear man. He said that religion poisons everything. What would he say today about the bible thumpers like Ted Cruz.
Little wrapped in the cloak of religion is holy. "The last refuge of a scoundrel is politics." Can't recall who said that but it needs to be amended to "The last refuge of a scoundrel is politics wrapped in religion." And Mr. Douthat makes an art form of it defending what is indefensible about his church and the GOP.
5
Eventually, churches which attempt the grandest of all spiritual feats - claiming to bridge the gap between heaven and earth - have got to come around big issues - and that means abandoning this absurd preoccupation with other peoples' sex lives.
2
I won't confess to knowing a lot about Catholicism, notwithstanding that I was brought up Catholic. In fact I have not gone to confession in many decades and will never again. Still, after reading a clearly political diatribe like this, I can't help but wonder: What happened to Papal infallibility? Wasn't that one thing conservatives liked when it suited their interests?
9
The essence of the Pope's message is really simple and straight forward. If God receives mankind with grace, surely we can receive one another with tolerance.
5
Douthat's ignorance of Judaism is staggering. In America, there's not just Reform and Orthodox Judaism, But Reconstructionist, and Conservative. The Reform movement dates back to the late 18th century and is much more complicated than his simplistic binary explanation. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Origins_of_Refor...
4
Ross, I am reading between the lines here that you *want* to be able to say that you are a conservative Catholic. Okay, you're invested in that.
What also stands out in this piece is the pretzel turns that characterize your logic in the political, social, as well as religious realms of which you write. Now, upon reading this piece, I can see what is the source of the convolutions of thought to which you are bound. (You are not alone in this.)
Conservatives, as I see and understand them, want what they have to be permanent, unchanging. The God of the Ages is forever unmoved and unmovable.
The impulse to conserve what is good, what *should* be preserved and held onto, is not a bad one. But the world has changed. And we know eventually the sun will burn itself out. We know that the Earth is not the center of the solar system, let alone the universe. Every gain in technology that allows us a greater view of the heavens - from Galileo's simple telescope to devices that look into deep space - has shown that the universe is bigger than we thought previously and that the Earth and its inhabitants are, relatively speaking, smaller and more insignificant. It becomes harder and harder to believe that we are the apple of a god's eye in the vastness of it all. Are there other apples of his eye on other orbs out there in the terrifying boundlessnesses of space?
Will God save us when the sun dies? He sure hasn't reached out much to save us humans from our suffering so far. What then?
What also stands out in this piece is the pretzel turns that characterize your logic in the political, social, as well as religious realms of which you write. Now, upon reading this piece, I can see what is the source of the convolutions of thought to which you are bound. (You are not alone in this.)
Conservatives, as I see and understand them, want what they have to be permanent, unchanging. The God of the Ages is forever unmoved and unmovable.
The impulse to conserve what is good, what *should* be preserved and held onto, is not a bad one. But the world has changed. And we know eventually the sun will burn itself out. We know that the Earth is not the center of the solar system, let alone the universe. Every gain in technology that allows us a greater view of the heavens - from Galileo's simple telescope to devices that look into deep space - has shown that the universe is bigger than we thought previously and that the Earth and its inhabitants are, relatively speaking, smaller and more insignificant. It becomes harder and harder to believe that we are the apple of a god's eye in the vastness of it all. Are there other apples of his eye on other orbs out there in the terrifying boundlessnesses of space?
Will God save us when the sun dies? He sure hasn't reached out much to save us humans from our suffering so far. What then?
4
You might want to look at the theology of Jesus' suffering: He's God suffering and dying with us and renewing life. That's "reaching out", no?
1
Snip,
It's a made up story. And no, if there ever was a person named Jesus who was crucified (no evidence outside the New Testament), that hasn't done a thing to help any human being since then. Modern medical science, however, has done alot. As has indoor plumbing.
It's a made up story. And no, if there ever was a person named Jesus who was crucified (no evidence outside the New Testament), that hasn't done a thing to help any human being since then. Modern medical science, however, has done alot. As has indoor plumbing.
There is a difference between a Church and an Inquisition. The Conservatives of any faith or creed always seek the Inquisition. Everyone else needs a Church.
6
Ross's fear that the Church's "tones of self-effacement, self-critique" are heterodox suggests his own doctrinal difficulty--with Papal Infallibility. He may succeed to his own satisfaction in rationalizing that difficulty, but this column's dominant tone of fear seems incompatible with a robust faith in God's control over the Church's destiny.
Ross, what internally divides religions is the same thing that separates different religions and indeed is the same thing that created religions in the first place - human needs. When you cut through all the dogma, ceremonialism, and old men wearing funny clothes, you get to the ultimate question - "Is this system meeting my needs?" When they do, people remain "believers;" when they don;t people either modify the system, go look for another system, or decide that no such unprovable systems are necessary. People created religions for specific purposes, when those purposes change because societies evolve, so is the need to remain tied to a static set of rules and regulations.
4
Amend the opening sentence to "Modernity has left organized religion behind" and you'll have stated a more relevant fact. For me and millions of others raised in the Catholic church or its heretical offshoots of Protestantism, we have made the inescapable discovery that dogma, doctrine, strictures and expensive structures are all an impediment to the true acceptance of faith and its practice.
6
Mr. Douthat is correct in that the compromise he describes is unlikely to hold. The compromise that Pope Francis has proffered is one that simply exacerbates the contradictions between doctrine and practice in the church. Conservatives will continue to look with a jaundiced eye at this pope. Real change will not come until the College of Cardinals and the episcopacy is purged of hard liners that the past two popes have elevated. In short, it will probably take another pope in the mold of Francis to move the church doctrinally away from its desperate grip on a medieval model of leadership and doctrinal enforcement.
1
Russ, our world is too filled with rigidity and the Catholic faith is splitting itself because of it. A priest who is adamant about his interpretations of doctrine to the expense of his parishioners, damages the church. Woe unto the parent who has a gay child or has no option but to divorce. An understanding church should never shut faith's door in the faces of the needy but that is exactly what many conservative priest do and I maintain that those who do are not speaking for God or even human understanding.
Seeking a "truce" as you call it is nowhere near a truce if there are unyielding caveats attached.
Seeking a "truce" as you call it is nowhere near a truce if there are unyielding caveats attached.
9
"Roman Catholicism, however, remains officially united" -- but only officially. One cannot ignore the Sedevacantism within the church.
As to all other splits within religions, speaking as an a/ir-religious person, it is difficult to understand the logic that has led to the many schisms within monotheistic religions.
As to all other splits within religions, speaking as an a/ir-religious person, it is difficult to understand the logic that has led to the many schisms within monotheistic religions.
1
With all due respect, I believe God is too big to care. Do we really believe that the infinite, animating power of the universe gives a rip about any church or religion that exists, has ever existed, or will exist? Believing that God has any concern about the day-to-day political and ecclesiastical rules devised by human beings has gotten us into endless struggle and cruelty is horrifyingly presumptive. God defines us. We don't define God. If we chose to seek God within and organized religion (I am a pledging, church-going Episcopalian) it is not by defining God, but by searching together, by asking together, by praying together, by aspiring to participate in divine transcendence, which I think is the simple and complicated task of looking outside ourselves for some glimpse of that which animates us. If we grasp some fragment of the world that is not ourselves, I think we would make our small piece of the universe reflect a flash of that which made us, but is not, decidedly, us.
This comment is confusing and I am okay with that. I think when we strive to be perfectly clear about God we get ourselves in a lot (a world) of pain and trouble. Searching is confusing, subversive, and honest. Claiming to have found all the answers isn't.
This comment is confusing and I am okay with that. I think when we strive to be perfectly clear about God we get ourselves in a lot (a world) of pain and trouble. Searching is confusing, subversive, and honest. Claiming to have found all the answers isn't.
13
Mr. Douthat's analogy to the Soviet nomenklatura is quite apt. Vacating the letter of the law in the hope of fostering a spiritual "glasnost'" only leaves a vacuum to be filled with myriad, parish-level interpretations of Church doctrine.
At St. John Cantius in Chicago, the Latin Rite is still prized and female parishioners often wear veils. At St. Francis Xavier on 16th St. in Chelsea, the parish priest uses his sermon to condemn the firing of an openly gay teacher at a Catholic school, and congregants march in the NYC Gay Pride parade under the church banner (Antonin Scalia's boyhood church, btw). I have attended both churches.
Catholics look to Rome for clarity, not calculated abdication of pressing issues that leave us still wondering what is to be done? If we wanted the priesthood of the individual we'd be protestants. Instead we take Church doctrine not at its word but as The Word, guided by the Holy Spirit acting through the Pope and the synod on the family.
To a lay person this is not unlike the Supreme Court and the Constitution. There is a lot of contending to determine the spirit of a "more perfect union" but the Supremes do eventually step in and draw clear lines and boundaries when things get "hot." The debate does not end, it evolves. No "ruling" from the Pope courts anarchy.
At St. John Cantius in Chicago, the Latin Rite is still prized and female parishioners often wear veils. At St. Francis Xavier on 16th St. in Chelsea, the parish priest uses his sermon to condemn the firing of an openly gay teacher at a Catholic school, and congregants march in the NYC Gay Pride parade under the church banner (Antonin Scalia's boyhood church, btw). I have attended both churches.
Catholics look to Rome for clarity, not calculated abdication of pressing issues that leave us still wondering what is to be done? If we wanted the priesthood of the individual we'd be protestants. Instead we take Church doctrine not at its word but as The Word, guided by the Holy Spirit acting through the Pope and the synod on the family.
To a lay person this is not unlike the Supreme Court and the Constitution. There is a lot of contending to determine the spirit of a "more perfect union" but the Supremes do eventually step in and draw clear lines and boundaries when things get "hot." The debate does not end, it evolves. No "ruling" from the Pope courts anarchy.
3
Really you should read some more Church history. No outright condemnation of slavery for a thousand years, house arrest for Galileo for speaking the truth, burning heretics and saints (Joan of Arc), a Pope who led an army and another who started the Crusades, priestly sex abuse of children...the list is long re things on which Rome failed to speak. And Protestants are baptized Christians and in the Church - that's a doctrine of the RC Church.
2
Most all Christian leaders just don't get it, and while Pope Francis is slowly moving his church in the right direction there is still a long, long way to go.
Jesus preached, taught and led by example that it is love, acceptance and belief that is important rather then all of the "words" of men written after and the constraints imposed by organized religions and their leaders.
Jesus was about mankind, all of it, not some, not the special chosen ones, not the rich temples (churches) built on the sweat of the poor, and not about the church leaders who placed themselves above the people.
Jesus preached, taught and led by example that it is love, acceptance and belief that is important rather then all of the "words" of men written after and the constraints imposed by organized religions and their leaders.
Jesus was about mankind, all of it, not some, not the special chosen ones, not the rich temples (churches) built on the sweat of the poor, and not about the church leaders who placed themselves above the people.
5
There is so much mistaken and myopic here it is hard to know where to begin. I'll limit myself to this, the Holy Father is rejecting the false (and literalist and modernist) dichotomy which forces either assent to juridical and limiting doctrinal formulas or schism. Rather, the Pope is calling the Church to a different charism, which is also part of the Tradition, of engagement and accompaniment with those on the peripheries, not from some "liberal" or " modernizing" impulse, but because as Christians we believe that it is among those outside the circle of righteousness where God is especially active...he loves his enemies. Fortunately for all of us.
4
As a woman I'll tell you.... I can't take much more of this 'love' - it's killing me!
2
The fact that some thoughtful, intelligent people can let themselves be heavily influenced by what has proved to be a flawed hierarchy always impresses me. People believe what they want to believe.
1
In Canada, there are more lapsed Catholics than practitioners. Indeed, we have one of our largest provinces, Quebec, morphing from an overwhelming % of active and faithful practitioners of the faith to essentially a secular society in literally one generation. Participation in most branches of the mainstream organized faiths has declined markedly. I believe this echoes most, if not all, first world countries including the USA.
What lead me to my own disinterest in the Catholic Church was its' seeming orientation as an ethereal accounting firm, more motivated by the debits and credits of sin than providing a welcome home for its parishioners. Under Francis, this appears to be changing, but I fear for many, including myself, it is too little, too late.
What lead me to my own disinterest in the Catholic Church was its' seeming orientation as an ethereal accounting firm, more motivated by the debits and credits of sin than providing a welcome home for its parishioners. Under Francis, this appears to be changing, but I fear for many, including myself, it is too little, too late.
14
Francis is the champion of Christian compassion. There can be no "truce" with that fundamental doctrine which is the very heart and soul of Roman Catholicism, It is an attempt to roll back the harsh doctrine that has moved the Church from its historic mission of caring for all to a callous disregard from those who live an "irregular" life. It is a noble attempt to revitalize a Church that has been dying under the calcification and rigidity of centuries doctrine that Mr. Douthat traces. At its core it embraces the life-affirming spirituality that must include all of us who, we too easily forget, are God's creation in that numinous rainbow of differences that basks in His "joy of love."
5
Regarding the rules and rites of organized religions, I'm with Joyce Carol Oates. "Homo sapiens is the species that invents symbols in which to invest passion and authority, then forgets that symbols are inventions."
Feel free to ignore all that man-made gobbledygook.
Feel free to ignore all that man-made gobbledygook.
10
Most people who disagree with the church's teachings don't attend. They don't care what the Pope says. The pews in most churches are pretty empty on Sundays. Of church goers, there is a large majority who flout the rules, don't go to confession and still take communion. The largest of this group are those who use birth control not sanctioned by the church or even have had an abortion. These people don't consider these to be mortal sins and therefore don't confess and take communion. They also don't really care what the pope says. Then there is the small minority who are more Catholic than the Pope, so to speak, and are angry when he plays fast and loose with the rules. The church is not as blended as you think. The second largest religious community in the US are former Catholics.
11
Annulment is basically revisionist history to allow the divorced back into communion, but we all know it's just a convenient fig leaf. The Church cannot evolve due to doctrine, but must because we know more now than when founded. This conflict will be ever present until the Church decides to change. Without this change, the foundation is nothing but hypocrisy, and everyone knows it.
1
And not a word about the status of women in the church. 51% of the population (and probably a higher percentage of Catholic faithful) being relegated to second-class status isn't even worth a mention in a document that supposedly deals with marriage, sex, and gender.
11
It is folly to debate whether a divorcee commits a mortal sin by receiving communion without the benefit of an annulment, when the bigger question is whether the body of Christ is being passed to the hands of that 'sinner' by a serial rapist of children.
No less folly than the earlier debates by the same people as to how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.
No less folly than the earlier debates by the same people as to how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.
7
Ross Douthat adroitly nails the essence of what has happened within the Catholic Church recently and over the past half century since the Second Vatican Council.
As Pope Benedict XVI noted, "We are living in the shadow of The Enlightenment". The "shadow of The Enlightenment" has truly darkened our world.
Fortunately, there are many excellent groups such as The Priestly Society of St. Pius X which holds to the true Vatican I Church with all the Traditional Sacraments, Prayers, Latin Language, Rites, Body Language, Architecture, Sacred Music and Traditional teachings of the Original Roman Catholic Faith.
Christ has told us that "The Gates of Hell will never prevail against the Catholic Church" and though things appear somewhat darkened at present--the many Traditional Catholics in the world today will perpetuate the Sensus Fidei of Sense of the Faithful.
The Sensus Fidei will lead the world back to truth in time!
As Pope Benedict XVI noted, "We are living in the shadow of The Enlightenment". The "shadow of The Enlightenment" has truly darkened our world.
Fortunately, there are many excellent groups such as The Priestly Society of St. Pius X which holds to the true Vatican I Church with all the Traditional Sacraments, Prayers, Latin Language, Rites, Body Language, Architecture, Sacred Music and Traditional teachings of the Original Roman Catholic Faith.
Christ has told us that "The Gates of Hell will never prevail against the Catholic Church" and though things appear somewhat darkened at present--the many Traditional Catholics in the world today will perpetuate the Sensus Fidei of Sense of the Faithful.
The Sensus Fidei will lead the world back to truth in time!
The flies in amber approach has a certain fascination, doesn't it?
3
Wow! - this is ... nuts.
Another point on a trajectory that includes sharia law, fundamentalist condemnation of everyone but fundamentalists, Orthodox beliefs that demand others turn on a light switch for them lest they be impious/damned ....
the impulse to live primarily by condemning others was live & well.
Francis' tentative steps to redress the Church's tortures stain of intolerance may be too little too late, Sad.
Another point on a trajectory that includes sharia law, fundamentalist condemnation of everyone but fundamentalists, Orthodox beliefs that demand others turn on a light switch for them lest they be impious/damned ....
the impulse to live primarily by condemning others was live & well.
Francis' tentative steps to redress the Church's tortures stain of intolerance may be too little too late, Sad.
2
"The Sabbath was made for humankind, not humankind for the Sabbath." If the Church is an actual community hewing to the law of love--which Jesus said was the only law--then it can afford to look on the world and the people in it with loving eyes. Does it have to be in the fear business? How long will you put up with needing the fear structures in order to keep yourself acting in loving ways? Look for the bigger picture--the Church doesn't have to be about making people afraid so that it can control the most intimate aspects of their lives. It has the potential to be a loving community that accepts and supports actual human beings, who have messy lives and do their best to find the path of the good. That's what Pope Francis is saying.
5
The sooner this Papacy ends, the better. Resignation is a good precedent. The choice of a Jesuit was a mistake the Church had managed to avoid, wisely, for generations.
It's time for the Church to forget about its "social position" permanently. It's the Church of Christ, is it not? The "modern" world will never accept this, but "modernity" will pass.
It's time for the Church to forget about its "social position" permanently. It's the Church of Christ, is it not? The "modern" world will never accept this, but "modernity" will pass.
1
I'm getting a kick out of the commentators who apparently want to dispense with the Enlightenment.
2
Orthodox Christianity, which in a number of senses is "even older than," "even more traditional than" Roman Catholicism, has long accommodated remarriage after a divorce as a matter of "loving kindness."
I pray that in this special Year of Mercy our brother Ross and all people, despite whatever sins or failings each of us has committed, may feel the grace and love of God for each us and all creation, just as we are and are meant to be.
I pray that in this special Year of Mercy our brother Ross and all people, despite whatever sins or failings each of us has committed, may feel the grace and love of God for each us and all creation, just as we are and are meant to be.
4
Pope Francis is sly, like the proverbial fox. Throughout Society, there are many situations where a person has to choose between doing what is required--and what is right.
Francis knew that there would have been a rebellion--a Palace Revolt--if he suggested that Communion was OK for those "living in sin". However, he realized that this is being done every day.
The Church cannot police it, and many clergy just look the other way. Within his verbiage, he more or less authorizes it to continue; but, he also sides with the conservatives by not outwardly saying so.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Francis knew that there would have been a rebellion--a Palace Revolt--if he suggested that Communion was OK for those "living in sin". However, he realized that this is being done every day.
The Church cannot police it, and many clergy just look the other way. Within his verbiage, he more or less authorizes it to continue; but, he also sides with the conservatives by not outwardly saying so.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Really, does Douthat care that much what old sexually repressed (we hope) men decide for the remaing few catholics that actually follow what they say?
I still hope for a true reactionary pope to drive away the sentient few that cling to the church like a life jjacket.
I still hope for a true reactionary pope to drive away the sentient few that cling to the church like a life jjacket.
1
Francis wants a Church that is open, welcoming, loving, and forgiving. This document provides a way forward from an impasse that in this country alone leaves some 60 million Catholics on the outside.
On this issue, as with almost every one in which Douthat has opposed this Pope I am left to ask this question: what kind of Church do you want Ross?
He is very good at criticizing proposed reforms, but offers nothing himself, except predictions of gloom and doom.
On this issue, as with almost every one in which Douthat has opposed this Pope I am left to ask this question: what kind of Church do you want Ross?
He is very good at criticizing proposed reforms, but offers nothing himself, except predictions of gloom and doom.
6
Douthat seems to think that only conservative Catholics need by satisfied with church doctrine. The doctrinally very conservative are a shrinking minority of first world Catholics.
2
Pope Francis' Amoris Laetitia is not, as Ross sees it, a superficial and compromising attempt to paper-over the current debates within the Church, between traditional top-down strict dogmatism and loose bottom-up secular modernity. It is, rather, a brilliant and profound calling to the faithful to transcend both sides of that political dialogue by re-aspiring to Christ's pre-dogmatic, pre-institutionalized religious love of God and our neighbors. Francis is saying that the current debates, pro- and con-dogmatic institutions (both hierarchy and doctrine), are missing the point of religion, which is about saving souls through unconditional love and forgiveness. Ross is stuck in the rut and doesn't get it.
3
Ms Dowd may be unduly concerned about Catholic doctrine, but to the vast majority of us who don't subscribe to it, this is a storm in a teacup. The onward march of rational thought is inexorable even if it faces fierce resistance here and there.
4
"Because the teaching is consistent..." - that statement shows such ignorance of the evolution and change that has occurred over centuries. It also ignores the reality that for many Catholics, until the modern era, Rome was a far aware and often unheard from locus of authority.
6
"And such deliberate ambiguity does offer a center, of sorts, for a deeply divided church."
George Orwell gave such deliberate ambiguity a name: Double-think.
It is double-think that permits someone to "live in sin" for 11 years while waiting for a first marriage to be formally dissolved by Rome so that they can be married in the church - all the while believing they are good Catholics.
Double-think enabled bishops to pass pedophile priests on to other parishes and new victims, justifying their actions by believing (or not) they were protecting the Church. The list goes on and on.
George Orwell gave such deliberate ambiguity a name: Double-think.
It is double-think that permits someone to "live in sin" for 11 years while waiting for a first marriage to be formally dissolved by Rome so that they can be married in the church - all the while believing they are good Catholics.
Double-think enabled bishops to pass pedophile priests on to other parishes and new victims, justifying their actions by believing (or not) they were protecting the Church. The list goes on and on.
5
Hasn't Catholic policy and even doctrine been revised for centuries? In that respect, Pope Francis is being quite traditional, it seems to me.
He is steering a path that lets the Church continue its work, but without closing its eyes to the very world it hopes to help. I'm not sure why Douthat thinks that might do harm -- unless it's because more conservative Catholics will stop following their own Pope, which doesn't sound very conservative to me.
He is steering a path that lets the Church continue its work, but without closing its eyes to the very world it hopes to help. I'm not sure why Douthat thinks that might do harm -- unless it's because more conservative Catholics will stop following their own Pope, which doesn't sound very conservative to me.
2
Ross Douthat is over-complicating.
The Pope is trying to figure out how to allow the Church to keep from turning away huge swaths of people who find themselves as being regarded in a state of perpetual sin. He sees no mercy in that.
On a practical scale, the Pope is trying to keep the Church from hanging on to the dogma, but losing the congregation. The tug of war between moral certainty and change is brutal. But we have changed and modernized slowly, and the change will continue, even as fundamentalists kick and scream.
One thing for the strictest of the doctrinaire to remember, is that the greatest sin is to think you know and understand the mind of God. We may be listening hard and still mishear fundamental truths.
The Pope is trying to figure out how to allow the Church to keep from turning away huge swaths of people who find themselves as being regarded in a state of perpetual sin. He sees no mercy in that.
On a practical scale, the Pope is trying to keep the Church from hanging on to the dogma, but losing the congregation. The tug of war between moral certainty and change is brutal. But we have changed and modernized slowly, and the change will continue, even as fundamentalists kick and scream.
One thing for the strictest of the doctrinaire to remember, is that the greatest sin is to think you know and understand the mind of God. We may be listening hard and still mishear fundamental truths.
2
I find it difficult reading Douthat on the church; on the one hand he seems to be a disinterested observer of the church's two
factions but on the other hand it is pretty obvious he has taken sides----how can he report objectively when all the while
he's very much on one side--an apt analogy would be a "fixed "jury
factions but on the other hand it is pretty obvious he has taken sides----how can he report objectively when all the while
he's very much on one side--an apt analogy would be a "fixed "jury
3
Ross Douthat has adroitly correctly nailed the essence of what has happened within the Roman Catholic Church.
The loss of the belief in the Supernatural and the loss of the Sense of the Sacred within faith is rife in Modernity.
There are several Traditionalist Worldwide Groups of Latin Rite Catholics that are vibrant and growing in leaps and bounds. The Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X is one such group that has so many priestly vocations to its Traditional Latin Mass Seminaries that they are building an enormous new Seminary to house the overflowing number of young motivated Tradition Minded young men joining the group.
These Traditional Catholic groups are the "Sensus Fidei" of truth that are leading the Church and the World back to truth and decency.
The loss of the belief in the Supernatural and the loss of the Sense of the Sacred within faith is rife in Modernity.
There are several Traditionalist Worldwide Groups of Latin Rite Catholics that are vibrant and growing in leaps and bounds. The Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X is one such group that has so many priestly vocations to its Traditional Latin Mass Seminaries that they are building an enormous new Seminary to house the overflowing number of young motivated Tradition Minded young men joining the group.
These Traditional Catholic groups are the "Sensus Fidei" of truth that are leading the Church and the World back to truth and decency.
1
Francis defined the border of love as the center.
It is where the living loving practice of love pulsates with the inherited language of wisdom. It is not a border that divides immutable calcified doctrines from subversive negation and rejection. It is the pulsating life giving center of love where opposites are transmuted into one.
True religion unites humanity. It is devil's worship that divides. Francis is doing God's work.
It is where the living loving practice of love pulsates with the inherited language of wisdom. It is not a border that divides immutable calcified doctrines from subversive negation and rejection. It is the pulsating life giving center of love where opposites are transmuted into one.
True religion unites humanity. It is devil's worship that divides. Francis is doing God's work.
7
Douthat would have us believe that Jesus provided a blueprint for the Church; for him, faith and being faithful is all about the doctrines embedded in the blueprint. When we Catholics become puzzled regarding what is required of us during our pilgrimage on this earth, all we need to do is to consult the blueprint, a document that has been preserved and interpreted through the centuries by the guardians of orthodoxy.
However, he is wrong. Faith is not about a blueprint replete with doctrines. It is about a trustful and loving relationship with a person, a mystery not amenable to control by a few hierarchs.
Pope Francis gets it. Douthat does not.
However, he is wrong. Faith is not about a blueprint replete with doctrines. It is about a trustful and loving relationship with a person, a mystery not amenable to control by a few hierarchs.
Pope Francis gets it. Douthat does not.
7
Sadly, I believe Pope Francis is essentially a PR flack for the church, saying popular things, but taking no action. The perpetrators of mass child abuse and its cover up remain protected, or even honored, by the church; women in general and nuns in particular are still second or even third class Catholics; and the church remains more interested in opposing contraception than providing healthcare to the poor.
5
The pope didn't really say anything new. I think this is a step backward for the Catholic church and the pope's "cool" factor. The conservative factions win--no truce. Francis' message falls flat when it comes to actually changing the language of the dogma. Gays still can't get a Catholic marriage. The divorced may eat communion, but with a shake of the head (?). Women can't be priests. Priests can't marry. Nuns can't marry. The hippie "what would Jesus do" pope bends to the old school establishment. Why even write the document? The conservative factions will just keep doing what they are doing with the argument that they already were being empathetic by following the dogma. The liberal factions already know what's up--this document is a slap in their face.
5
It seems a first step in devolving authority to give annulments to parish priests. This devolution of authority is nothing new; abortion used to draw automatic excommunication thay could only be revoked by a bishop, now confession to a priest is sufficient.
1
I have seen and heard a lot of talk from Pope Francis, but very little action. He talks about poverty while sitting in a gold leaf chair, he talks about caring for abuse victims, but the bishops, and cardinals who made it possible are still there. He talks about the corruption of the Vatican bank, and sacrificed a few people, but one of the world's most corrupt banks is still going strong.
This is the same old song and dance the catholic church has been doing for over 1,000 yrs. They have become evil and corrupt. Until the power of love overcomes the love of power, it is all just talk. There was so much potential in Pope Francis, now he is just another Mafioso Don.
This is the same old song and dance the catholic church has been doing for over 1,000 yrs. They have become evil and corrupt. Until the power of love overcomes the love of power, it is all just talk. There was so much potential in Pope Francis, now he is just another Mafioso Don.
2
"I have seen and heard a lot of talk from Pope Francis, but very little action. He talks about poverty while sitting in a gold leaf chair, he talks about caring"
Then you have not really been looking or listening.
"They have become evil and corrupt."
Since you've made up you mind on that, it is no surprise that you are not willing to see or hear.
Then you have not really been looking or listening.
"They have become evil and corrupt."
Since you've made up you mind on that, it is no surprise that you are not willing to see or hear.
3
I have seen the following:
Proven child abuse by catholic clergy in San Diego, Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, Chicago, Boston, Houston, New York, Ireland, Germany, Italy, on and on.
Witness intimidation in those same cities. Moving priests to avoid prosecution, including a cardinal. Witness intimidation in those same cities. When sued the church has responded by, in the words of one judge "You have presented the most byzantine set of accounts I have ever witnessed."
Please tell me sir, how far in your estimation, does an organization have to go into criminal behavior to be called 'evil and corrupt'?
Proven child abuse by catholic clergy in San Diego, Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, Chicago, Boston, Houston, New York, Ireland, Germany, Italy, on and on.
Witness intimidation in those same cities. Moving priests to avoid prosecution, including a cardinal. Witness intimidation in those same cities. When sued the church has responded by, in the words of one judge "You have presented the most byzantine set of accounts I have ever witnessed."
Please tell me sir, how far in your estimation, does an organization have to go into criminal behavior to be called 'evil and corrupt'?
The Pope, in his letter, instructs priests to baptize all children, even those born to an unmarried mother. That's pragmatic. The rate of children born to unmarried mothers is skyrocketing: in Quebec and Brazil -- indeed, all of Latin America -- the rate is over 60%. That number is not filtered for Catholics only, but the church counts "baptized" members, and without these baptized newborns, the number of Roman Catholics would decrease significantly. The numbers are dropping as it is -- further disenfranchisement will not help the Church.
1
the good columnist seems to misunderstand that the pendulum has effectively swung away from decades of Catholic orthodoxy; this is only natural in an institution where change is glacial at best. but, it has swung and JPII is out of favor - let the Church'es conservatives be made fully aware of that. now we have a period beginning wherein a more inclusive and forgiving, if not tolerant, attitude will hold sway, notwithstanding the disaffected's resistance. they know that this window won't last forever - all us Catholics know that - but their machinations to hasten change back in their favor will be stopped by the same forces that ushered in the previous orthodox period. Deus volt!
6
Oh Ross! It must be frustrating to have a sinecure as an apologist / propagandist for the 1%, and see your bubble burst by Francis. The weary and reactionary Ratzinger quit only to be replaced by someone who takes the Sermon on the Mount and Christ's driving of the money changers from the temple as more central to Christian compassion than the self-serving, status- and power-grabbing hierarchy. I recognize that there are many priests, nuns, and laity who work in the church who understand that Christ's central message was compassion, social justice, and the transitoriness of the material world. They now have a Pope as good as they are.
Maybe you can go to bed and fall into a dream world, where Scalia is reincarnated as the Pope.
Maybe you can go to bed and fall into a dream world, where Scalia is reincarnated as the Pope.
26
Ross Douthat as a conservative convert never lived under the old regime with its fire and brimstone (see Portrait of the Artist); its impossible bans on artificial birth control (pre-Pill) so that Catholic families -especially poor ones - were large; the state of fear the Manichean system of mortal and venial sins bred; Latin mass few understood.
So Douthat waxes nostalgic about the old Papal authority unaware of what his irrdentist thoughts would bring back if elected.
So Douthat waxes nostalgic about the old Papal authority unaware of what his irrdentist thoughts would bring back if elected.
7
Everyone understood and understands the Traditional Latin Mass because the translation is in the local vernacular language side by side with the Latin in the Traditional Missals in the pews of all churches.
Many Catholics currently attend the Traditional Latin Rite Mass each day and the Latin is really easy for most to learn. Most folks learn Latin as children and treasure it in their hearts and minds.
Many Catholics currently attend the Traditional Latin Rite Mass each day and the Latin is really easy for most to learn. Most folks learn Latin as children and treasure it in their hearts and minds.
Was Latin the language that Jesus spoke?
1
"learn Latin as children" - really? Where? Not in public schools any more. And when it was taught in my day really very few in the class were into it.
1
"Licensing innovation rather than merely tolerating it"
That would seem to be a good thing?
"And such deliberate ambiguity does offer a center, of sorts, for a deeply divided church".
That too would seem to be a good thing.
"But not one, I fear, that's likely to permanently hold".
Nor should it. After all innovation has now been licensed.
That would seem to be a good thing?
"And such deliberate ambiguity does offer a center, of sorts, for a deeply divided church".
That too would seem to be a good thing.
"But not one, I fear, that's likely to permanently hold".
Nor should it. After all innovation has now been licensed.
I truly appreciate that Pope Francis is bring the Church back to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Jesus was a radical in his day, defying the laws of the Old Testament. He changed "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek."
When a crowd came upon a woman rumored to be an adulterous, the crowd asked Jesus whether they should stone her to death as called for under the old law.
He said simply, "Let he without sin cast the first stone."
He invoked his followers to treat others as they would like to be treated, to love their neighbor and God, and let God be the judge of people, not man.
He would undoubtedly still be too radical today for many conservatives who surgically pick through Scripture to hide their innate biases and judge everyone but themselves.
The Catholic Church has been especially harsh to the LGBT community, turning them away from the Church despite their efforts to be included and actively working around the world on legislation that marginalizes and discriminates against LGBT people.
If the Churches were only occupied with people without sin they would be empty.
I thank Pope Francis for recognizing that disenfranchising the divorced, those who use contraceptives, those who engage in premarital sex, the LGBT community and any others who fall outside strict adherence to Church doctrine is the wrong path.
We are all still God's children, worthy of and willing to give love and respect to all people. That is what the Church should be about.
Jesus was a radical in his day, defying the laws of the Old Testament. He changed "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek."
When a crowd came upon a woman rumored to be an adulterous, the crowd asked Jesus whether they should stone her to death as called for under the old law.
He said simply, "Let he without sin cast the first stone."
He invoked his followers to treat others as they would like to be treated, to love their neighbor and God, and let God be the judge of people, not man.
He would undoubtedly still be too radical today for many conservatives who surgically pick through Scripture to hide their innate biases and judge everyone but themselves.
The Catholic Church has been especially harsh to the LGBT community, turning them away from the Church despite their efforts to be included and actively working around the world on legislation that marginalizes and discriminates against LGBT people.
If the Churches were only occupied with people without sin they would be empty.
I thank Pope Francis for recognizing that disenfranchising the divorced, those who use contraceptives, those who engage in premarital sex, the LGBT community and any others who fall outside strict adherence to Church doctrine is the wrong path.
We are all still God's children, worthy of and willing to give love and respect to all people. That is what the Church should be about.
12
Pope Francis believes that the Church must act with love and dignity towards all and must be a voice in favor of economic and social justice for all of God's children --rich or poor; straight or gay; married, single or divorced. The Church must not only stand on the side of those with wealth and power but also on the side of those who are socially marginalized. In the 1960s following the Second Vatican Council, the Jesuit's first articulated this love of the marginalized as "a preferential option for the poor," a position soon endorsed by the Latin American Bishops in Medellin, Colombia in 1968. Douthat misses the point when he says there is a faint Marxist odor to these proposals, although his accusations echo those hurled at Vatican II and Medellin in the1960s. The Catholic and Jesuit notions of social justice are not derived from Marxism. Rather the Pope is saying that the Church's teaching on sexuality, marriage and reproduction should be respected, but not at the cost of undermining God's love for all His/Her children or of neglecting the whole range of Catholic social thought. Douthat may want to cling to a narrow focus on marriage and sexuality as the centerpiece of a Church schism but Catholic teaching cannot be reduced to one or two issues favored by one political party in the U.S. Douthat writes more as a partisan columnist from the U.S. and not anyone who has anything to contribute to Catholic theology or a better understanding of the thinking of Pope Francis.
11
Your description of the conservative doctrine and the liberal parish priest may be true in some places, but not everywhere. There are plenty of Bishops promoted by conservative popes whose parish priests echo the orthodoxy and enforce its church-as-government view of spritualuty. This Pope has consistently sent a signal to love and persuade, lead by example. He - and many Catholics - want an end to the era of little demogogues in robes, believing they speak for God.
7
It's high time we add Hypocrisy to the Seven Virtues.
I imagine that there are Catholics who believe that words written in a book in a desert in a century far removed from this one are the be-all and end-all of existence, and that this life is governed by rules that can be altered by a man wearing a costume in Rome. Does the current Pope bolster my childhood programming, or does he invalidate it? If I'm confused, should I celebrate or mourn the ambiguity?
So what you're saying, Ross, is that Francis is disturbing the see-no-evil peace by cheapening rituals that allow good little boys and girls to sneer at "adulterers" who have broken the Book's rules. Divorced and remarried? My goodness, there are so few who have learned ten years into a marriage that they had made a fixable error. Remedy? According to psychotherapy, gently ending such a relationship before the resentment flares into chronic anger. According to the Church, gritting one's teeth and toughing it out. No wonder the Irish drink.
As one who was indoctrinated into the Catholic religion, as one who was assured as a five-year-old that following arcane rules would assure eternal bliss and breaking the "mortal" ones would result in eternal suffering, I can only say, "Run for your lives, kids." Run for your lives.
For happiness in the Church is valid only if it is achieved in a prescribed manner. Publicly, that is. Go ahead and use birth control, which is a sin. Have some Communion. What's wrong with this picture?
I imagine that there are Catholics who believe that words written in a book in a desert in a century far removed from this one are the be-all and end-all of existence, and that this life is governed by rules that can be altered by a man wearing a costume in Rome. Does the current Pope bolster my childhood programming, or does he invalidate it? If I'm confused, should I celebrate or mourn the ambiguity?
So what you're saying, Ross, is that Francis is disturbing the see-no-evil peace by cheapening rituals that allow good little boys and girls to sneer at "adulterers" who have broken the Book's rules. Divorced and remarried? My goodness, there are so few who have learned ten years into a marriage that they had made a fixable error. Remedy? According to psychotherapy, gently ending such a relationship before the resentment flares into chronic anger. According to the Church, gritting one's teeth and toughing it out. No wonder the Irish drink.
As one who was indoctrinated into the Catholic religion, as one who was assured as a five-year-old that following arcane rules would assure eternal bliss and breaking the "mortal" ones would result in eternal suffering, I can only say, "Run for your lives, kids." Run for your lives.
For happiness in the Church is valid only if it is achieved in a prescribed manner. Publicly, that is. Go ahead and use birth control, which is a sin. Have some Communion. What's wrong with this picture?
12
There may be some sympathetic priests who, in their humanity, see no need to exclude anyone from sacraments. This does not always play well with die hard Catholic conservatives. There is occasionally a story about some teacher fired by a Catholic school after it is known that they've married the person they have spent years with and perhaps even attended Mass together. But the real stone wall against any softening of church's attitude toward divorced persons or gay persons will be the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. Notoriously conservative , surprisingly political and frequently unkind, the USCCB is like the half sister of the GOP.
15
It seems to me that Francis is providing his interpretation of 'subsidiarity,' a doctrine espoused in the 2d Vatican Council, essentially saying that final decision-making should be undertaken at the level at which it meaningfully impacts, rather than from the top down. This idea caused heartburn for the pope at that time, Paul VI, who wanted to set in stone his predecessors' doctrine that birth control was verboten, but as an elderly childless presumed celibate the idea of subsidiarity on birth control could scarcely apply to him. His predecessor John Paul II doubled down on this imperial disdain for sharing decision-making, and so subsidiarity has been in 'limbo' until this latest papal utterance.
6
God is love. A billion years past and a billion years future. Love is unconditional. Relativism is conditional. What Christ taught and proved in no uncertain terms is that love of God and love of other must be unconditional, including that marriage is not until convenient or seasonal. That errors are committed by certain individuals and that perfection is a constant striving does not change that basic truth. So the whole relativistic, feel good, me first, do what you want, think what you want critique is just a negation of Christ's main teaching and revelation, notwithstanding all the rationalizations. And this will bear out twenty years from now and billion years from now, without even a dent inflicted by the enlightened relativistic troupe, to their surprise or not.
A Church that would consign to Hell a significant majority of those baptized in its faith for violating its canons is either very callous or completely out of touch with its members. Pope Francis, unlike some in the Church hierarchy, seems neither.
Conservative Bishops and Mr Douthat's long standing war on sex seems as cruel and futile and our nation's war on drugs. I applaud Pope Francis for understanding the spiritual and material carnage caused by the Church's medieval doctrines that equated love with procreation, marriage vows with fidelity, and saw men in charge of most everything.
What really bothers Mr. Douthat and other conservatives is that their side may soon no longer be making the rules and they will be forced to defend their positions with logic rather than by claims of moral authority. If I held Mr.
Douthat's arcane views, I'd be worried too.
Conservative Bishops and Mr Douthat's long standing war on sex seems as cruel and futile and our nation's war on drugs. I applaud Pope Francis for understanding the spiritual and material carnage caused by the Church's medieval doctrines that equated love with procreation, marriage vows with fidelity, and saw men in charge of most everything.
What really bothers Mr. Douthat and other conservatives is that their side may soon no longer be making the rules and they will be forced to defend their positions with logic rather than by claims of moral authority. If I held Mr.
Douthat's arcane views, I'd be worried too.
10
I once read in the Genesis chapter of a Torah, "Did God make men in His image or did men make God in theirs?"
I think the so called conservative religious men (of most religions) have made God in theirs, the Catholic Church included.
Regardless of the sinfulness of people engaged in divorce, out of wedlock sex, birth control, homosexuality and transgenderism, the attitude and actions of the religiously pious towards these people are often judgmental and hateful, lacking love and compassion that is central to virtuous life. What is virtue without love and compassion?
Big words and high minded concepts expressed here ring hollow to what it means to be a good, ethical person. Church or no church.
I think the so called conservative religious men (of most religions) have made God in theirs, the Catholic Church included.
Regardless of the sinfulness of people engaged in divorce, out of wedlock sex, birth control, homosexuality and transgenderism, the attitude and actions of the religiously pious towards these people are often judgmental and hateful, lacking love and compassion that is central to virtuous life. What is virtue without love and compassion?
Big words and high minded concepts expressed here ring hollow to what it means to be a good, ethical person. Church or no church.
6
A rightly formed personal conscience is the only truly moral force in the world on an individual and collective basis. Much suffering results from following authority because one's forebears followed that authority. There are many books in the library. I believe the church hierarchy, like many hierarchies, exists to sustain itself. Virtue and integrity exist where individuals live decent lives day by day. Mercy? Individuals of conscience and integrity don't need it.
1
Mr. Douthat,
It is not just religion that has been left a house divided in the tides of Modernism. It is also politics. The modern secular nation state itself struggles to define its authority and its limits and comes away from that task with less than either clarity or order. Indeed the very struggle with authority and limits is almost what Modernism is. The jury is still out on whether the struggle can become a sustained system in any form, political or religious, but like you seem to suggest: I suspect the answer is no on both fronts.
The comments to your column are telling in themselves. The automatic assumptions that somehow the Secularist or the Liberal Religious view is (of course!) exempt from this "defeatism that is lurking within” Modernism (as Habermas says) show how those on the Left live unexamined lives as easily as those on the Right that they love to caricature. To believe in mortal sin hardly suggests a quivering intellect, mortified by science; it merely suggests that we take the concept of cause and effect rather more seriously than the culture at large is accustomed to. To suggest that advances in moral thinking mean advances toward Modernist thinking only suggests that Modernist Minds can be as tightly closed in circular justifications as Fundamentalist ones.
I appreciate your stab at nuance in the midst of all this, Mr. Douthat.
It is not just religion that has been left a house divided in the tides of Modernism. It is also politics. The modern secular nation state itself struggles to define its authority and its limits and comes away from that task with less than either clarity or order. Indeed the very struggle with authority and limits is almost what Modernism is. The jury is still out on whether the struggle can become a sustained system in any form, political or religious, but like you seem to suggest: I suspect the answer is no on both fronts.
The comments to your column are telling in themselves. The automatic assumptions that somehow the Secularist or the Liberal Religious view is (of course!) exempt from this "defeatism that is lurking within” Modernism (as Habermas says) show how those on the Left live unexamined lives as easily as those on the Right that they love to caricature. To believe in mortal sin hardly suggests a quivering intellect, mortified by science; it merely suggests that we take the concept of cause and effect rather more seriously than the culture at large is accustomed to. To suggest that advances in moral thinking mean advances toward Modernist thinking only suggests that Modernist Minds can be as tightly closed in circular justifications as Fundamentalist ones.
I appreciate your stab at nuance in the midst of all this, Mr. Douthat.
Mortal sin, unrepented and unforgiven, sends people to the pains of hell for all eternity. What's nuanced about that and its relationship to the culture at large?
4
Pope Francis's letter:
"297. It is a matter of reaching out to everyone, of needing to help each person find his or her proper way of participating in the ecclesial community
and thus to experience being touched by an “unmerited, unconditional and gratuitous” mercy. No one can be condemned for ever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel! Here I am not speaking only of the divorced and remarried,
but of everyone, in whatever situation they find themselves."
this is a church as institution acting as a church of mercy and love. bravo, francis!
"297. It is a matter of reaching out to everyone, of needing to help each person find his or her proper way of participating in the ecclesial community
and thus to experience being touched by an “unmerited, unconditional and gratuitous” mercy. No one can be condemned for ever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel! Here I am not speaking only of the divorced and remarried,
but of everyone, in whatever situation they find themselves."
this is a church as institution acting as a church of mercy and love. bravo, francis!
6
Francis is not the Church. He talked up a storm and now produces a little puff of wind.
1
I think Mr. Douthat's observation explains why, despite all of the exasperation over the exhortation, I haven't heard anyone decide to leave or enter the Church on account of it. The document reiterated over and again the objective character of the Church's perennial teaching, while being fairly ambiguous or unclear about how to carry it out in practice.
I wish he had said more about why it is that every headline has jumped straight to the issue of Communion for divorced and remarried Catholics. What reason does the world have for being interested in this question? Especially when the document touches on far more relevant issues such as consumerism, gender ideology, the education of children, and the very meaning of the family? It seems that the world is interested in seeing the Catholic Church change her teaching--once this happens, the Church loses any claim as a timeless teaching authority. Is there any other reason so much focus should go on this issue?
I wish he had said more about why it is that every headline has jumped straight to the issue of Communion for divorced and remarried Catholics. What reason does the world have for being interested in this question? Especially when the document touches on far more relevant issues such as consumerism, gender ideology, the education of children, and the very meaning of the family? It seems that the world is interested in seeing the Catholic Church change her teaching--once this happens, the Church loses any claim as a timeless teaching authority. Is there any other reason so much focus should go on this issue?
1
Ross: you write " There is still a formal teaching that remarriage without an annulment is adultery, that adultery is a mortal sin, that people who persist in mortal sins should not receive communion."
Does anyone really believe that God requires the complicated ecclesiastical process (often involving, for the Kennedy clan, for example, paying large sums of money) to somehow prove that what everyone thought was a standard, garden-variety "marriage" never existed or was somehow invalid? Does anyone actually believe in annulment? That's the problem, Ross. The Catholic church has created a legal fiction to get around the fact that all of us are intrinsically sinful human beings. This one (annulment) simply happens to be laughable (yes, I'm a former Protestant). And this pope apparently sees the silliness--the contradiction--and is changing the rules.
Reality strikes again.
Better get used to it, Ross.
Does anyone really believe that God requires the complicated ecclesiastical process (often involving, for the Kennedy clan, for example, paying large sums of money) to somehow prove that what everyone thought was a standard, garden-variety "marriage" never existed or was somehow invalid? Does anyone actually believe in annulment? That's the problem, Ross. The Catholic church has created a legal fiction to get around the fact that all of us are intrinsically sinful human beings. This one (annulment) simply happens to be laughable (yes, I'm a former Protestant). And this pope apparently sees the silliness--the contradiction--and is changing the rules.
Reality strikes again.
Better get used to it, Ross.
6
Ross, love ya, but you're thinking too hard. A better more relaxed and hopeful interpretation of Amoris Laetitia is that the Church is just admitting a little more openly to what it has always done at its best: hold up ideals, but with wisdom and compassion and even humor for all the muddled half-hearted half-believers in its care. Christianity's situation today is such that we have to seriously expand the old moral theology concept of invincible ignorance. Lots of Catholics, through no particular fault of their own, just don't--can't--get major chunks of the package. And tempting as the prospect is for zealots, we can't just toss them out. We have to "work with what's there" as the old sad saying goes. This is why there is pastoral theology as well as dogmatic and moral theology in Catholic thought! So Ross, don't get overwrought about the threat of "flagrant self-contradiction." Humanity is a mass of contradictions. Faith is a bundle of paradoxes if not contradictions. Even science is turning up what look like contradictions in nature. (Is light a wave or a particle?) If you are afraid the Church risks contradicting itself by conservatively insisting on ideals, and in the next breath liberally showing itself rather relaxed with the sinful human condition, it's just being Catholic. Like Whitman, it contains multitudes!
6
Religious belief is belief. Plain and actually very simple, just belief.
That belief trumps fact should indicate to anyone who bothers to think, even the most obdurate believer, there is a something loose and not just a screw; the whole machine is in need of adjustment.
I make light of this when in fact a candidate who has a realistic possibility of becoming President of our nation announced his run for the office at Liberty University which teaches, among other myths, the earth is 6000 years old.
This is not meant as a snarky comment rather an expression of disconcert that anyone, let alone a person who considers himself to be qualifed as leader of a nation which is thought to be inhabited by reasonable people, should even tip a cap to such belief. The last thing the world needs is for our nation, for no other reason than our military might, to even consider such a person as a leader.
What is of more immediate concern is that a column such as this is published in a format which is read throughout the world. It has to indicate the actual absurdity coloring any other comment which has earlier and may later appear by the same author.
When belief replaces reason, no one is helped and worse, every one suffers.
That belief trumps fact should indicate to anyone who bothers to think, even the most obdurate believer, there is a something loose and not just a screw; the whole machine is in need of adjustment.
I make light of this when in fact a candidate who has a realistic possibility of becoming President of our nation announced his run for the office at Liberty University which teaches, among other myths, the earth is 6000 years old.
This is not meant as a snarky comment rather an expression of disconcert that anyone, let alone a person who considers himself to be qualifed as leader of a nation which is thought to be inhabited by reasonable people, should even tip a cap to such belief. The last thing the world needs is for our nation, for no other reason than our military might, to even consider such a person as a leader.
What is of more immediate concern is that a column such as this is published in a format which is read throughout the world. It has to indicate the actual absurdity coloring any other comment which has earlier and may later appear by the same author.
When belief replaces reason, no one is helped and worse, every one suffers.
7
Ross, there are so many nasty little cuts and digs here, and so little serious backing for your thesis, that this ranks as one of your more futile efforts. Granted, it encompasses matters near and dear to you; the sanctity and maintenance of the church as it has always been, the need for conservative rather than liberal values in all things, the need to obscure with pedantry what rigorous and open debate would uncover ...
Your third paragraph is so far out of line it is astonishing. While I cannot speak directly to a split between Reform and Orthodox Judaism, I can tell you that evangelicals and main-line Protestants manage to work wonderfully together in all manner of ways; even on occasion to join in prayer and worship. The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church remain members of the Anglican Communion together. In those cases, none of the participants have lost the essentials of faith; some have decided on more or less stringent rules about membership and practice. And, they ALL feel united as christians ... even if the Roman Church does not see them in quite that light due to its own closed focus and narrow-mindedness.
My bishop once told me (I was serving as a parish priest), George, it is always easier to ask forgiveness than permission ...
Your third paragraph is so far out of line it is astonishing. While I cannot speak directly to a split between Reform and Orthodox Judaism, I can tell you that evangelicals and main-line Protestants manage to work wonderfully together in all manner of ways; even on occasion to join in prayer and worship. The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church remain members of the Anglican Communion together. In those cases, none of the participants have lost the essentials of faith; some have decided on more or less stringent rules about membership and practice. And, they ALL feel united as christians ... even if the Roman Church does not see them in quite that light due to its own closed focus and narrow-mindedness.
My bishop once told me (I was serving as a parish priest), George, it is always easier to ask forgiveness than permission ...
6
i have no issue with the Pope's approach. The Church cannot abandon certain rules, as we used to call them, or it will be wishy washy, trendy, I.e., Episcopalian. The organization needs stability of belief while understanding we are all sinners.
That being said, one must be able to seek forgiveness for all sins. Including the so called adultery of divorce and remarriage. Is the logic that the divorced person should,divorce again and remarry the ex? Or, simply divorce again and remain celibate?
That being said, one must be able to seek forgiveness for all sins. Including the so called adultery of divorce and remarriage. Is the logic that the divorced person should,divorce again and remarry the ex? Or, simply divorce again and remain celibate?
1
Stop trying to fool people. There's as much division in the Catholic church as there is among the various protestant churches, not to mention the scandalous conduct of some Catholic officials to shield, cover up, and enable the rape of children while others gasp in utter disbelief. Are you trying to tell this non-Catholic that has not caused a rift in the Catholic church? Not to mention that Catholics in modern countries practice artificial birth control while Catholics in other countries sometimes do not. Just because Catholics holding day-and-night differences go to the same church in different countries, rather than next door to each other, does not mean they are not irreconcilably divided, virtually all Catholics in the USA practicing one brand of Catholicism and and all others practicing another.
2
Pope Francis may be effecting compromise among ideological factions within the Church. But the truces he seems to be forging are between the Church and human beings, and between the Church and all of Life. In other words, Pope Francis is declaring a truce between the Church and Reality. He does not seem to be changing Church doctrine so much as how he approaches people. I don't think Francis will ask Douthat to be a different kind of Catholic. But he may suggest that Douthat be a different kind of human being, leaving Douthat to make his own decisions on that score.
7
As someone who spend part of yesterday singing at Mass, I feel we need to ask Ross if there are many "conservative" catholics who follow the out of date sexual laws? That is, are there really many families where the college kids don't have pre-marital sex? or where couples don't co-habit before marriage? Or where couples stay married out of obedience to church doctrine? There were such couples in my parents generation - they were the majority. But there are almost none.
So the split between conservative rules and liberal practice is between clergy alone. the people in the seats whether conservative or liberal in politics, have modernized.
So the split between conservative rules and liberal practice is between clergy alone. the people in the seats whether conservative or liberal in politics, have modernized.
11
People use religion in many ways.
* Some use it for setting social policy, setting standards of behavior, and punishing those who do not conform.
* Some use it for establishing knowledge, like how old the universe is and how it came into existence.
* Some use it as a means of spiritual transformation that can heal the sick and suffering inside.
The first two invariably lead to trouble. Pope Francis, in his wisdom, seems to be focusing on the last.
Douthat does not understand this. All he can focus on are the politics he loves so much.
* Some use it for setting social policy, setting standards of behavior, and punishing those who do not conform.
* Some use it for establishing knowledge, like how old the universe is and how it came into existence.
* Some use it as a means of spiritual transformation that can heal the sick and suffering inside.
The first two invariably lead to trouble. Pope Francis, in his wisdom, seems to be focusing on the last.
Douthat does not understand this. All he can focus on are the politics he loves so much.
16
I love my church and I cherish my faith. I thank God for the grace of our Holy Father's patient compassion. At the same time I pray for the recognition and reformation of the evil perpetrated by the patriarchal hierarchy that is our church on earth. Roman Catholithism cannot hope to endure until the sins of her clergy against her children are fully vetted and atoned for.
9
"There is still a formal teaching that remarriage without an annulment is adultery, that adultery is a mortal sin, that people who persist in mortal sins should not receive communion."
You forgot the conclusion of the teaching. It is not that people in mortal sin can't receive communion. It is that mortal sin and grace do not coexist and that grace is not reinstated without contrition. And finally, those who die in the state of mortal sin go to hell. A very slippery slope indeed! Whatever happened to hell?
You forgot the conclusion of the teaching. It is not that people in mortal sin can't receive communion. It is that mortal sin and grace do not coexist and that grace is not reinstated without contrition. And finally, those who die in the state of mortal sin go to hell. A very slippery slope indeed! Whatever happened to hell?
I have to ask, after reading the last sentence, why Mr. Douthat "fears" that an ambiguous center to the church will not hold?
I am left wondering which of the following applies:
(1) Mr. Douthat thinks that divorced people and gays and lesbians are sinners;
(2) Mr. Douthat fears that the Catholic church's claim to be the most authoritative sect of Christianity will be lost;
(3) Both of the above, along with the reassurance that his faith give HIM the authority to opine in judgment over others' behavior and lifestyle.
Since it is Mr. Douthat himself who says, "I fear..." perhaps he should consider the degree to which the sin of Pride applies to him. And might Mr. Douthat here -- as in so many other columns -- imagine trying to be more frank with his readers? Mr. Douthat cloaks his intolerance in a robe of faux intellectualism.
I am left wondering which of the following applies:
(1) Mr. Douthat thinks that divorced people and gays and lesbians are sinners;
(2) Mr. Douthat fears that the Catholic church's claim to be the most authoritative sect of Christianity will be lost;
(3) Both of the above, along with the reassurance that his faith give HIM the authority to opine in judgment over others' behavior and lifestyle.
Since it is Mr. Douthat himself who says, "I fear..." perhaps he should consider the degree to which the sin of Pride applies to him. And might Mr. Douthat here -- as in so many other columns -- imagine trying to be more frank with his readers? Mr. Douthat cloaks his intolerance in a robe of faux intellectualism.
8
Mr. Douthat,
As I ponder over the Pope's new position on marriage, I stand divided by myself over it.
Organized religions promote marriage as central to a family. It is an occasion to celebrate. It represents the good. It is a constructive event and a hope for humanity.
On the other hand, religions shun divorce. It is seen as a destructive occurrence. It causes misery for those involved, including the children all of who represent humanity.
Modern society puts pressure on a family unit like never before. Should religion legitimize and encourage divorce and concede defeat ? Isn’t religion supposed to ensure victory of good (marriage) over bad (divorce) ?
Maybe the Pope sees more than I can ever mentally grasp of the good and the bad.
As I ponder over the Pope's new position on marriage, I stand divided by myself over it.
Organized religions promote marriage as central to a family. It is an occasion to celebrate. It represents the good. It is a constructive event and a hope for humanity.
On the other hand, religions shun divorce. It is seen as a destructive occurrence. It causes misery for those involved, including the children all of who represent humanity.
Modern society puts pressure on a family unit like never before. Should religion legitimize and encourage divorce and concede defeat ? Isn’t religion supposed to ensure victory of good (marriage) over bad (divorce) ?
Maybe the Pope sees more than I can ever mentally grasp of the good and the bad.
Conservatism, whether in politics or religion, tends to define institutions in terms of the rules adherents must follow. Those rules embody the essence of the church or constitutional system, and therefore members of the religious or political community should not challenge them. Liberals, on the other hand, tend to think that, at any given time, rules imperfectly express the spirit or purpose of the institution, and that the members of the community should therefore periodically modify those strictures, to bring them into closer conformity with the ideals they are supposed to reflect.
This philosophical difference may account for Douthat's unhappiness with Pope Francis's efforts to reform the Catholic church. After all, if established church doctrine declares that re-marriage without an annulment qualifies as a mortal sin, condemning the guilty couple to eternal damnation, how can priests or bishops finesse the issue by permitting the sinners to receive communion? Do the sin and its penalty disappear if the priest ignores them?
It would seem that the Catholic church, in all but name, has experienced a split between conservatives and liberals, a schism which the pope seeks to conceal with a wink and a nod at practices which alter doctrine. Christianity, at its core, teaches God's unlimited love for humanity. Doctrines of the type discussed by Douthat place limits on that love and therefore seem to contradict the purpose of the church. Maybe a split is in order.
This philosophical difference may account for Douthat's unhappiness with Pope Francis's efforts to reform the Catholic church. After all, if established church doctrine declares that re-marriage without an annulment qualifies as a mortal sin, condemning the guilty couple to eternal damnation, how can priests or bishops finesse the issue by permitting the sinners to receive communion? Do the sin and its penalty disappear if the priest ignores them?
It would seem that the Catholic church, in all but name, has experienced a split between conservatives and liberals, a schism which the pope seeks to conceal with a wink and a nod at practices which alter doctrine. Christianity, at its core, teaches God's unlimited love for humanity. Doctrines of the type discussed by Douthat place limits on that love and therefore seem to contradict the purpose of the church. Maybe a split is in order.
1
A factor that is not mentioned in regard to annulments is that the time factor is not always "lengthy and rigorous." After five years of marriage, my husband initiated the annulment process. At the time, we had been divorced for two years. His motivation for the annulment at that point appeared to me to be motivated by his engagement to a Catholic woman who wanted a Catholic wedding. I received a questionnaire, which I completed, and four months later received an official notice in the mail that the marriage had been annulled due to "the fault of the woman." I have no idea what that fault was. No one connected to the Catholic Church ever talked to me. It was as if I had been tried and convicted without being present. I do not know what had taken place on my husband's side. I do know that his parents were well connected and gave monetary support to their church.
7
Of course Pope Francis was not going to change Catholic Church doctrine that would have had a negative impact on the family and society. He is a man of compassion and forgiveness but he knows that there is right and wrong. There are still mortal and venial sins committed by Catholics but through reconciliation (which is another word for confession) they can be absolved of these sins.
He was correct in his decisions on divorced and gay Catholics. To allow any divorced Catholic to freely receive holy communion without knowing the complete circumstances is making a mockery of this extremely sacred sacrament. Pope Francis sees the importance of marriage remaining between one man and one woman. He is an intelligent man and knows this is extremely important for the future of intact and happy family life.
We cannot just do as we darn well please without having disastrous effects on our society. We must uphold certain values and principles if we want our civilization to thrive and flourish. Let's think about the future generations to come and not be selfish and self centered.
He was correct in his decisions on divorced and gay Catholics. To allow any divorced Catholic to freely receive holy communion without knowing the complete circumstances is making a mockery of this extremely sacred sacrament. Pope Francis sees the importance of marriage remaining between one man and one woman. He is an intelligent man and knows this is extremely important for the future of intact and happy family life.
We cannot just do as we darn well please without having disastrous effects on our society. We must uphold certain values and principles if we want our civilization to thrive and flourish. Let's think about the future generations to come and not be selfish and self centered.
1
It is ironic that marriage is the one act for which there is no escape. There is no way for church members to admit that a marital relationship no longer exists needs to be dissolved. For a while following Vatican II, the church used annulment as a back door even though it essentially forced the parties to declare that the union was at fault from its very start -- something that is often not true in many relationships. In later years, even that path has been effectively closed thanks to multiple layers of clerical bureaucracy.
In the end, it comes down to the church recognizing what it already knows in all other aspects of life. Humans make mistakes despite honest attempts to avoid them. A key pastoral role is to help people learn from those mistakes, achieve forgiveness, and move on to live better and holier lives.
In the end, it comes down to the church recognizing what it already knows in all other aspects of life. Humans make mistakes despite honest attempts to avoid them. A key pastoral role is to help people learn from those mistakes, achieve forgiveness, and move on to live better and holier lives.
1
Funny that any conservative Catholics might have the notion that the Catholic church hasn't changed. It's been changing quite continuously and speeding up lately. The current Pope has made a major shift here accepting divorce and that gay people might not be sinners just from being gay. But shifts have been going on for centuries.
Nowadays, I haven't heard of any Catholic insistence on eating no meat on Friday. Most Catholics have sex outside of marriage and use contraception, and are not excommunicated. The service used to be given in Latin only, until quite recently. It is no longer popular to ritually execute people accused of witchcraft, nor torture people until they recant heresies like the earth being round. Heck, back in the early days priests could marry and have children.
So the change is ongoing, and inevitable. The small steps taken this week will be followed by more, until yet again, as every century, the church is irrevocably altered.
Also it's pretty clear that if the church tries to prevent same-sex marriage, women priests, abortion, and acceptance of science for too much longer, it will render itself obsolete and go the way of the gods the Romans worshiped.
Nowadays, I haven't heard of any Catholic insistence on eating no meat on Friday. Most Catholics have sex outside of marriage and use contraception, and are not excommunicated. The service used to be given in Latin only, until quite recently. It is no longer popular to ritually execute people accused of witchcraft, nor torture people until they recant heresies like the earth being round. Heck, back in the early days priests could marry and have children.
So the change is ongoing, and inevitable. The small steps taken this week will be followed by more, until yet again, as every century, the church is irrevocably altered.
Also it's pretty clear that if the church tries to prevent same-sex marriage, women priests, abortion, and acceptance of science for too much longer, it will render itself obsolete and go the way of the gods the Romans worshiped.
2
The question is, why would anyone want to profess a commitment to a religion that has a history of being so utterly cruel to people just because they fell victim to ordinary human circumstances? A divorce is not an indication of a character flaw. Neither is the reality that someone is transgender or gay.
A compassionate church would recognize that faith in God transcends human frailty and that human circumstances, trying as they be (as in divorce) or uncomfortable as they may be for some, do not indicate a lack of goodness in the individual.
Pope Francis showed decency. I hope his cardinals and bishops do the same and urge priests to recognize, clearly and consistently, that victims of a poor marriage and individuals who, through absolutely no fault of their own, are victimized by an outmoded and idiotic bias against homosexuality are welcome in the Catholic church, welcome to receive communion, and regarded as children of God in every sense of that ideal.
A compassionate church would recognize that faith in God transcends human frailty and that human circumstances, trying as they be (as in divorce) or uncomfortable as they may be for some, do not indicate a lack of goodness in the individual.
Pope Francis showed decency. I hope his cardinals and bishops do the same and urge priests to recognize, clearly and consistently, that victims of a poor marriage and individuals who, through absolutely no fault of their own, are victimized by an outmoded and idiotic bias against homosexuality are welcome in the Catholic church, welcome to receive communion, and regarded as children of God in every sense of that ideal.
5
I never understood the Catholic Church's appeal, and now, married to one for a few weeks shy of 25 years, I understand it even less. My wife married me, a former Church of Christ "Christian" (The CoC does not recognize any other sect of Christian religion as true "Christians." Baptists are Baptists, Catholics are Catholics, etc., etc., etc.) turned skeptic turned all-out atheist little more than a month after my divorce to my first wife of 23 years became final, in a civil ceremony in San Francisco City Hall with the walls and balconies of the rotunda draped in AIDS quilts. One would be forgiven for not considering that set of circumstances particularly auspicious for long term success.
My wife, never divorced, has not taken communion since her last time prior to our elopement and legally binding if canonically denied/forbidden civil union. In matter of fact, my unbelief is no more a problem than if I had been and remained a practicing "Christian" a la the Church of Christ. Pope Francis has proposed a kinda, sorta, maybe possibility of almost regaining full Catholic benefits, under a very limited set of conditions, marriage to anyone not of the Catholic faith, even if that marriage has been sound and happy and ongoing to this day, not being one of them. So Pope Francis's encyclical, or whatever it is called, is irrelevant, immaterial and insulting. If she divorced me, would she then have a possibility of again receiving communion?
I, for one, am not impressed.
My wife, never divorced, has not taken communion since her last time prior to our elopement and legally binding if canonically denied/forbidden civil union. In matter of fact, my unbelief is no more a problem than if I had been and remained a practicing "Christian" a la the Church of Christ. Pope Francis has proposed a kinda, sorta, maybe possibility of almost regaining full Catholic benefits, under a very limited set of conditions, marriage to anyone not of the Catholic faith, even if that marriage has been sound and happy and ongoing to this day, not being one of them. So Pope Francis's encyclical, or whatever it is called, is irrelevant, immaterial and insulting. If she divorced me, would she then have a possibility of again receiving communion?
I, for one, am not impressed.
1
Who cares? There are a hundred (if not HUNDREDS) of other religions your wife (or you) can join -- or not join -- there are very liberal churches that would totally accept your divorce. There are churches that would happily give your divorced wife communion.
Why would you want to be a member of any church that doesn't WANT YOU as a member? Since neither of you believe in the tenets of the Catholic faith -- why do you care?
Why would you want to be a member of any church that doesn't WANT YOU as a member? Since neither of you believe in the tenets of the Catholic faith -- why do you care?
In January, I attended my 90 year old Catholic mother's memorial mass service. The priest stated those who were Catholic could get up and receive communion. Of my her 4 children, I have been divorced twice ( both husbands defrauded me with lies about either or their drug and alcohol use or who they really were. I would not have married either if I had known, the truth). Both my children are baptisted in the Catholic Church after I was divorced from the first husband and both have made their first communion with one being confirmed. All of my siblings have only been married on once and all for twenty plus years. One of them has not bothered to get any children baptized Catholic, one only one of three. I have the only child who has been confirmed a Catholic. My two children are the only one of 13 grandchildren to go to Catholic School. We all went to Catholic elementary school. I graduated from a Catholic University.
At my mothers funeral mass, I and my daughter who attended got up and received communion. I have always received communion in Atlanta, as does every divorced and remarried Catholic I know ITP. Only one of my other siblings even got up for communion.
Who is the better Catholic me, who married the abusive alcoholic men and left to protect my children? Or my siblings who ignore their faith yet remain married?
At my mothers funeral mass, I and my daughter who attended got up and received communion. I have always received communion in Atlanta, as does every divorced and remarried Catholic I know ITP. Only one of my other siblings even got up for communion.
Who is the better Catholic me, who married the abusive alcoholic men and left to protect my children? Or my siblings who ignore their faith yet remain married?
1
The Catholic Church is a both-and church Douthat. The three letter word "and" bears witness to doctrinal development. Doctrinal development occurs when modern needs are addressed using an ancient faith. This means that the ancient faith must be modified to address the modern needs. The "and" also bears witness to the heated (often violent) disagreements between schools of thought. Without the "and" there would be division. Being Catholic is being open to Truth wherever it is found. Examples of both/and teachings include God is One and Three, Christ is human and divine, Scripture and Tradition, Faith and Reason, Grace and Free Will, Papal Infalibility and Collegial Infallibility, and lay infallibility (Sensus Fidelium), outside the Church there is no salvation and salvation is possible outside of Rome, priesthood of all the baptized and Holy Orders, etc. Being both/and is our identity. Embrace it.
Mr. Douthat worries that what he perceives (and perception is all there ever is, unless one believes that he and God conveniently share an outlook, aka "truth"), as the latest papal revelation not having holding power. Perhaps he's too young to have noticed that nothing in the human experience is changeless.
Douthat uses language in such a way as to suggest there has been some sort of straight line from God to the Church to low level clergy to the average Catholic. In fact, each of these is a category of human imagination at work, with history showing that retaining a semblance of control over how people think and lead their lives (power!) remains the primary characteristic of all religious hierarchies. Imagine training people to be as you wish, and then threatening them with severe punishments ranging from burning at the stake to excommunication from church and community, all for what leaders determine to be sinfulness. What part of this sequence does Douthat not recognize as he searches for traditions that hold.
I grew up in Boston, when it was regarded as the most anti-Semitic city in America, with leadership in that damaging hatred in the hands of Catholic clergy. Now I watch every attempt a humanly complex entity like the Church makes to see who wishes to hold the ideological line in the face of the even greater human complexity outside in the daylight of actual life as it is lived. What can "permanently hold" mean other than something must be taken as official?
Douthat uses language in such a way as to suggest there has been some sort of straight line from God to the Church to low level clergy to the average Catholic. In fact, each of these is a category of human imagination at work, with history showing that retaining a semblance of control over how people think and lead their lives (power!) remains the primary characteristic of all religious hierarchies. Imagine training people to be as you wish, and then threatening them with severe punishments ranging from burning at the stake to excommunication from church and community, all for what leaders determine to be sinfulness. What part of this sequence does Douthat not recognize as he searches for traditions that hold.
I grew up in Boston, when it was regarded as the most anti-Semitic city in America, with leadership in that damaging hatred in the hands of Catholic clergy. Now I watch every attempt a humanly complex entity like the Church makes to see who wishes to hold the ideological line in the face of the even greater human complexity outside in the daylight of actual life as it is lived. What can "permanently hold" mean other than something must be taken as official?
When has the Roman Catholic Church ever admitted it has been wrong? To the best of my knowledge never, up to and including the Doctrine of Discovery, devised in the 1400s to validate the conquest(violently when necessary) and (forced)conversion of any people, anywhere in the world who were non-Catholic. The niceties of family and marriage pale in comparrison to the horrors this Papal decree pereptuated and it too remains in place, rarely discussed, never repudiated.
I believe the main virtue of the Catholic Church is not the heirarchy or even the Pope but the people in the pews, the community they share and the works they do to meet real human needs. Worldwide it is possible to enter any Catholic Church and experience essentially the same Mass, with the same readings around the world and if one understands the language hear the teaching of Jesus as read in the Gospel. This daily exposure to the words of Jesus and the limited effect of individual preachers keeps the essence of the faith in front of the people, most of whom understand the realites of community and family life far beter than the professional clergy. This Pope's limited excercise of his authority changes nothing long term. The idea that the Church moves slowly across centuries is not going to hold in the future with global communications in place. All new members are receiving information mediated and crossing cell phones/social media. The Church is likely going to find it must change if it is to survive.
I believe the main virtue of the Catholic Church is not the heirarchy or even the Pope but the people in the pews, the community they share and the works they do to meet real human needs. Worldwide it is possible to enter any Catholic Church and experience essentially the same Mass, with the same readings around the world and if one understands the language hear the teaching of Jesus as read in the Gospel. This daily exposure to the words of Jesus and the limited effect of individual preachers keeps the essence of the faith in front of the people, most of whom understand the realites of community and family life far beter than the professional clergy. This Pope's limited excercise of his authority changes nothing long term. The idea that the Church moves slowly across centuries is not going to hold in the future with global communications in place. All new members are receiving information mediated and crossing cell phones/social media. The Church is likely going to find it must change if it is to survive.
2
Ross I remember your faction of the Catholic Church from my youth. You represent the narrow minded judgmental side of the church based on class race, ethic background and wealth.
Your Favorite clergy were the ones demanding money from poor partitioner so the could build church infrastructure and ship bullion off to Rome every week from Logan and Kennedy airports all while they were screwing the housekeeper or the alter boys.
They were the ones who condemned young women pregnant out of wedlock and divorced women remarrying to support their kids after divorce from brutal drunken husbands or marrying out of the church to replace the war dead husbands and support their children.
Yes I remember your form of Catholism well and I was glad to renounce it for science and atheism as soon as I could do so as a youth.
No Ross "The Center cannot hold for Catholism" and conservative religion in general because of modern education and science. Educated people will not stand for subjugation and suffering in this life for the promise of "pie in the sky by and by".
If the Catholic Church is to become a compassionate organation on earth and not a tool of the plutocracy to oppress the poor it needs to drop its oppressive and authoritarian way and repudiate the doctrines you espouse.
The conservative establishment in the Vatican will not willingly do that so Francis has a fight on his hands and will fail. But it doesn't matter because the laity are leaving in droves.
Your Favorite clergy were the ones demanding money from poor partitioner so the could build church infrastructure and ship bullion off to Rome every week from Logan and Kennedy airports all while they were screwing the housekeeper or the alter boys.
They were the ones who condemned young women pregnant out of wedlock and divorced women remarrying to support their kids after divorce from brutal drunken husbands or marrying out of the church to replace the war dead husbands and support their children.
Yes I remember your form of Catholism well and I was glad to renounce it for science and atheism as soon as I could do so as a youth.
No Ross "The Center cannot hold for Catholism" and conservative religion in general because of modern education and science. Educated people will not stand for subjugation and suffering in this life for the promise of "pie in the sky by and by".
If the Catholic Church is to become a compassionate organation on earth and not a tool of the plutocracy to oppress the poor it needs to drop its oppressive and authoritarian way and repudiate the doctrines you espouse.
The conservative establishment in the Vatican will not willingly do that so Francis has a fight on his hands and will fail. But it doesn't matter because the laity are leaving in droves.
10
I think this will work. Experience has taught 'way too many people that a rigid interpretation of these moral doctrine positions is unsustainable. And vice versa; there's a lot of truth in all of these doctrinal positions and a rigid rejection is unsustainable too.
The sense of sin that comes from comparing yourself to what you should have been -- that is the foundation of Christianity and of love for your fellow man.
There is a certain kind of conservative who strives for perfection, and of course falls, but in the process hates everyone else who has ever fallen. No one can live a whole life in a church, or a country, like that.
I was told, back in the '70's, that it is the softness of my female intellect which does not allow me to believe, and impose, impossible things -- like that every fertilized egg is a baby; or that marriage is indissoluble. But here I am, affirming all that. It is, after all, the substance of incarnation, and all of us have seen it. It is not softness that compels me to affirm reality.
The sense of sin that comes from comparing yourself to what you should have been -- that is the foundation of Christianity and of love for your fellow man.
There is a certain kind of conservative who strives for perfection, and of course falls, but in the process hates everyone else who has ever fallen. No one can live a whole life in a church, or a country, like that.
I was told, back in the '70's, that it is the softness of my female intellect which does not allow me to believe, and impose, impossible things -- like that every fertilized egg is a baby; or that marriage is indissoluble. But here I am, affirming all that. It is, after all, the substance of incarnation, and all of us have seen it. It is not softness that compels me to affirm reality.
4
When I was young, Church doctrine taught that masturbation is a "mortal sin," the commission of which, even once, guaranteed an eternity burning in the fires of Hell. This sobered me up, as I realized I was committing myself to the perpetual flames of Hell about 5 or 6 times a day. Faced with the choice of fearing for my mortal soul several times a day or giving up Holy Mother Church -- I quit. Never looked back; never regretted it. Why anybody would follow Church doctrine to comply with the 13th century theology of Thomas Aquinas is beyond me, and beyond most Catholics, with the result that the overwhelming majority of American Catholics don't bother to follow Church doctrine. The Church has admitted that Copernicus and Galileo were right. Someday, when the archconservatives realize they lead fewer and fewer followers, the Church will fine some casuistic fig leaf to get itself into the current century.
5
Like so many people my age, who grew up Catholic and even went to Catholic schools, I can no longer stomach the immorality of this organization and left it long ago. However, it continues to intrude into the life and culture we all share through its teachings and official and unofficial organizations that, among other things, fight abortion rights.
The current Pope does teach a much more inclusive and loving message, even if, as Douthat points out, it is done in a read between the lines fashion.
My immediate concern is the documented spread of Zika Virus and the risk of severely deformed babies being born to pregnant women infected with this virus. How will the Catholic Church respond to this immediate crisis? Will it insist the women give birth to babies that will each require countless tens of thousands of dollars in health care over their lifetimes, or will the Church take the more loving and rational approach and support abortion for these affected mothers and babies? If you want to write about Catholic doctrine and values in the NYT I ask that you open the discussion up to how Church power is used in ways that can harm or possibly do some good. All the resources siphoned off to bring severely deformed infants into the world come from the limited pot of money for health care for all.
The current Pope does teach a much more inclusive and loving message, even if, as Douthat points out, it is done in a read between the lines fashion.
My immediate concern is the documented spread of Zika Virus and the risk of severely deformed babies being born to pregnant women infected with this virus. How will the Catholic Church respond to this immediate crisis? Will it insist the women give birth to babies that will each require countless tens of thousands of dollars in health care over their lifetimes, or will the Church take the more loving and rational approach and support abortion for these affected mothers and babies? If you want to write about Catholic doctrine and values in the NYT I ask that you open the discussion up to how Church power is used in ways that can harm or possibly do some good. All the resources siphoned off to bring severely deformed infants into the world come from the limited pot of money for health care for all.
7
It's not so much a compromise document that tries to mollify two camps, but a return to the Jesus' approach to the tension between Law and compassion.
At the same time Jesus condemned the legalism of some of his peers it was not unknown for him to make the Law even more strenuous... that even having anger in your heart is as bad as breaking the law against killing. But as much as Jesus keeps raising the bar, he doesn't condemn those who try and fail to reach that high bar.
As much as he recognized the adulteress's sin as sin, "Go and sin no more." He also kept her from being executed by reminding everyone how we all are sinners in need of mercy.
He recognized that what the Prodigal Son did was wrong "spent it all on dissolute living", yet had the father forgive him.
Jesus in Mt 25 gave the community rules for throwing out an unrepentant abuser, but only after several attempts to reconcile.
And so, Francis is following suit. The moral laws, procedures, and penalties stay on the books for those who need them (the grossly scandalous and abusively unrepentant), but he's encouraging a compassionate approach to the law letting local bishops, pastors, and communities seek reconciliation with those who don't live up to the ideal.
Dispensation and "the internal forum" (a long tradition which recent previous pontiffs and conservatives tried to get rid of) are now back on the table.
This isn't what can the liberals and conservatives can abide, it's what Jesus would do.
At the same time Jesus condemned the legalism of some of his peers it was not unknown for him to make the Law even more strenuous... that even having anger in your heart is as bad as breaking the law against killing. But as much as Jesus keeps raising the bar, he doesn't condemn those who try and fail to reach that high bar.
As much as he recognized the adulteress's sin as sin, "Go and sin no more." He also kept her from being executed by reminding everyone how we all are sinners in need of mercy.
He recognized that what the Prodigal Son did was wrong "spent it all on dissolute living", yet had the father forgive him.
Jesus in Mt 25 gave the community rules for throwing out an unrepentant abuser, but only after several attempts to reconcile.
And so, Francis is following suit. The moral laws, procedures, and penalties stay on the books for those who need them (the grossly scandalous and abusively unrepentant), but he's encouraging a compassionate approach to the law letting local bishops, pastors, and communities seek reconciliation with those who don't live up to the ideal.
Dispensation and "the internal forum" (a long tradition which recent previous pontiffs and conservatives tried to get rid of) are now back on the table.
This isn't what can the liberals and conservatives can abide, it's what Jesus would do.
2
What is truly fascinating in these discussions is the reliance on Biblical passages written thousands of years ago in the context of a very different culture and societal makeup. Women were property. They were literally sold into a marriage. A raped virgin received no compensation. Her father did. Her father had "damaged goods" now and she was less marketable for marriage. Jesus taught relationships, right relationships. Yet what he taught has been interpreted by almost exclusively male scholars, writers and translators over the years. Where were/are the voices of women who got bartered into marriages in a variety of ways that prove not to be right relationships. I cannot glean from Jesus' teachings that He intended an abusive and coercive marriage should continue to exist. I cannot fathom that He would doom a woman in particular to a physically and mentally painful relationship with no way out of it. It is our arrogance in this, not God's, that clings to such harmful ideas that a marriage should be indissoluble no matter what.
By the way, Ross, The Episcopal Church is the only branch of Anglicanism in the United States. The Anglican Church in North American is a splinter group not recognized by the See of Canterbury. The Anglican Church of Canada is the other official branch of Anglicanism in the rest of North America. Some want to cling to the "way we were" at the expense of God's children, regardless of the consequences. Is that truly of God?
By the way, Ross, The Episcopal Church is the only branch of Anglicanism in the United States. The Anglican Church in North American is a splinter group not recognized by the See of Canterbury. The Anglican Church of Canada is the other official branch of Anglicanism in the rest of North America. Some want to cling to the "way we were" at the expense of God's children, regardless of the consequences. Is that truly of God?
7
The handlers of Francis, first pope from this hemisphere, usually make sure that Vatican spin resonates.
But for those of us who may be older than the pontiff--in my case: DOB 1935--we remain estranged because of what we experienced first hand, say in the 70s.
At the time, I was working in Los Angeles; DIGNITY was blessed with a membership of more than a 100 gay men. But the Church, with its usual policy of exclusivity, succeeded in closes doors (literally) and bringing about the chapter's demise. Damn it.
That, and the earlier experience as an undergrad (in the 50s) cemented my anger and acceptance of being A Lapsed Catholic (with parents from Italy and Ireland).
Also, the bigotry of a European cousin also influenced my choice. I, with countless others, think independently. Such a person is not wanted in the Church. Unfortunately. Hence, the Church hierarchy continues in a manner that is not truly "new".
But for those of us who may be older than the pontiff--in my case: DOB 1935--we remain estranged because of what we experienced first hand, say in the 70s.
At the time, I was working in Los Angeles; DIGNITY was blessed with a membership of more than a 100 gay men. But the Church, with its usual policy of exclusivity, succeeded in closes doors (literally) and bringing about the chapter's demise. Damn it.
That, and the earlier experience as an undergrad (in the 50s) cemented my anger and acceptance of being A Lapsed Catholic (with parents from Italy and Ireland).
Also, the bigotry of a European cousin also influenced my choice. I, with countless others, think independently. Such a person is not wanted in the Church. Unfortunately. Hence, the Church hierarchy continues in a manner that is not truly "new".
Mr. Douthat, annulment for the vast majority of divorced Catholics is a ploy to exert authority and to exhort money. It does not solve problems of conscience. It causes hostility and resentment.
The majority of Catholics favor a married clergy. The current view of priests is jaundiced at best. Baby boomers are probably counseling their children against allowing grandchildren unsupervised time with priests. And the view of the bishops and cardinals is probably worse.
The treatment of nuns, and women in the church,is an embarrassment. It is time for equality.
In regards to gays, it is time to recognize that sexual preference is controlled in a persons DNA.
Lastly, perhaps the greatest sin of the church is concerning modern birth control. Like other scientific breakthroughs, it is a gift to mankind. It greatly aids the poor break the chains of poverty. It greatly AIDS the health of women in general. And their wanted children. It is practiced by the vast majority of US Catholics, without being a matter of confession. It should be accepted and encouraged world wide. Amazing that it was not part of the Pontiff's plea concerning global warming.
Ross, your Catholic Church is not thriving. And this latest letter from the Pope is a great disappointment to millions of former and current Catholics. Kind words of little substance or help.
The majority of Catholics favor a married clergy. The current view of priests is jaundiced at best. Baby boomers are probably counseling their children against allowing grandchildren unsupervised time with priests. And the view of the bishops and cardinals is probably worse.
The treatment of nuns, and women in the church,is an embarrassment. It is time for equality.
In regards to gays, it is time to recognize that sexual preference is controlled in a persons DNA.
Lastly, perhaps the greatest sin of the church is concerning modern birth control. Like other scientific breakthroughs, it is a gift to mankind. It greatly aids the poor break the chains of poverty. It greatly AIDS the health of women in general. And their wanted children. It is practiced by the vast majority of US Catholics, without being a matter of confession. It should be accepted and encouraged world wide. Amazing that it was not part of the Pontiff's plea concerning global warming.
Ross, your Catholic Church is not thriving. And this latest letter from the Pope is a great disappointment to millions of former and current Catholics. Kind words of little substance or help.
13
There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that "sexual preference is controlled by a person's DNA".
You cannot show a genetic scientist the DNA of a gay person and the DNA of a straight person, and in a double blind study, have that scientist tell you which is which. Therefore, it is at most a THEORY but the science of the day cannot possibly determine what you have alleged.
Lastly: the Roman Catholic Church has a BILLION or more members, and IS thriving in many places. It is certainly not melting away like the "social justice" liberal Protestant churches. And if it did, so what? I'd rather stick to what I believe and go down with the ship, than "cut my conscience to fit the fashions of the day".
You cannot show a genetic scientist the DNA of a gay person and the DNA of a straight person, and in a double blind study, have that scientist tell you which is which. Therefore, it is at most a THEORY but the science of the day cannot possibly determine what you have alleged.
Lastly: the Roman Catholic Church has a BILLION or more members, and IS thriving in many places. It is certainly not melting away like the "social justice" liberal Protestant churches. And if it did, so what? I'd rather stick to what I believe and go down with the ship, than "cut my conscience to fit the fashions of the day".
As usual, the commenters by and large are missing the point of Douthat's column. The question is not whether the Pope is on the right side of history as progressives see it, it's whether the Pope has struck an effective compromise, effective in terms of where the church's different constituencies stand. And the people to decide this are not your typical New York Times readers, who have long ago made up their minds on all moral issues. Not, frankly, is it the faithful in the US or Western Europe, who have paid no attention to church doctrine for the past fifty years, or their bishops and cardinals. It's the great mass of Roman Catholics, and their leadership, in Latin American, Africa, and Asia, as well as communities in Eastern Europe. It was these Catholics who regarded John Paul II as a moral exemplar and social hero, even though he opposed liberation theology, turned back any attempt to change church doctrine on matters of sex and marriage, and frankly drove many Westerners away from the Church. Francis will succeed in his attempt to refashion the church only if he has the power to change minds among what has become its core of teachers and believers.
66
Oh, gee, thanks for explaining it to us. But I'd venture to guess that most NYTimes readers think the whole 'life based on a fictional story and a science fiction book' thing makes Ross's explication a moot point. The more people driven away from the church the better. And this Pope has an influence outside the church that may be much more important than whatever he has to say to those within it.
2
Westerners have paid no attention church doctrine for the last 50 years? Tell that to the gay people who can't get married in their hometown Catholic Church, or the gay teachers that have been fired from teaching in Catholic school because he or she revealed themselves.
2
There is no compromise when it comes to the bigotry practiced by an institution mired in the mists of the Dark Ages.
The unquestionable misogyny and rampant homophobia sermonized by a priesthood forever tainted by the world wide molestation and sodomy of the children entrusted to its care , is not to be tolerated under any circumstance.
In the eyes of the Church , women are not endowed with free will in any sense of the word. They are instead treated as if they were commodities and dumb farm animals , incapable of making the most personal decisions and deciding what is proper for their families.
As for the LBGT folks , they do not exist as a part of the human family recognized by the Church.
The Church therefore , deems well over 50 % of the Earth's population as either entirely unequal or as irredeemable sinners.
Not quite what Christ had in mind and inacceptable to our Constitution as well, this Catholic dogma has no place in the modern world. Religious bigotry , like any other form of hatred , is not to be tolerated at all.
The unquestionable misogyny and rampant homophobia sermonized by a priesthood forever tainted by the world wide molestation and sodomy of the children entrusted to its care , is not to be tolerated under any circumstance.
In the eyes of the Church , women are not endowed with free will in any sense of the word. They are instead treated as if they were commodities and dumb farm animals , incapable of making the most personal decisions and deciding what is proper for their families.
As for the LBGT folks , they do not exist as a part of the human family recognized by the Church.
The Church therefore , deems well over 50 % of the Earth's population as either entirely unequal or as irredeemable sinners.
Not quite what Christ had in mind and inacceptable to our Constitution as well, this Catholic dogma has no place in the modern world. Religious bigotry , like any other form of hatred , is not to be tolerated at all.
3
Since many average Catholics, especially the conservative ones, believe that the Pope is "infallible," one would think that they would accept a new teaching or clear change in doctrine by a Pope as infallible as well (The actual church teaching on papal infallibility is far narrower than the average Catholic understands. The doctrine claims infallibility only when the Pope does something called speaking "from the chair of Peter," which is very, very rarely done, i.e., not everything a Pope says is considered infallible by the church itself). Apparently, conservative Catholics hold to THAT doctrine only when the Pope says what they want to hear.
5
Mr. Douthat is cheery and in a good mood because the pope basically didn't change a thing, except to say, "be nice".
Last time I looked, nobody was dying because they were not able to receive communion. However, women throughout the world die (yes, die) every day because they are unable to acquire contraception. If the pope would reverse the church's ban on contraception, this situation could ease up overnight.
I had great hopes for Pope Francis to do the right thing for women. But it looks like he is all store-front and no merchandise.
Last time I looked, nobody was dying because they were not able to receive communion. However, women throughout the world die (yes, die) every day because they are unable to acquire contraception. If the pope would reverse the church's ban on contraception, this situation could ease up overnight.
I had great hopes for Pope Francis to do the right thing for women. But it looks like he is all store-front and no merchandise.
31
Ross, Pope Francis has made worthwhile but limited gestures - addressing that the scope of what is considered "sin" is anachronistic today, and taking the Church's head out of the sand to address the gap between its doctrine and the reality of its parishioners. These are not revolutions, but allow for evolutions.
Pope Francis is, by education, a scientist. A scientist knows that a being unable to adapt and, yes, evolve, will die. So too with his faith group.
Pope Francis is, by education, a scientist. A scientist knows that a being unable to adapt and, yes, evolve, will die. So too with his faith group.
29
My goodness Ross your church is actually evolving. Your condescending words about the Pope regarding the mild changes of doctrine indicated in the Pope's paper with respect to families "it still carries a distinctive late-Marxist odor, is arrogant. You are aware that your church has changed over time, aren't you? Books are allowed to be printed, you can even read your own Bible which was prohibited for many, many years, the Inquisition did end. Your fear of anything that smacks of liberalism in any form whether in politics or religion is profound.
I am by no means a religious person, but I find Pope Francis a refreshing change in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. He is not a science denier, and he believes we have an obligation to the poor and sick.
I am by no means a religious person, but I find Pope Francis a refreshing change in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. He is not a science denier, and he believes we have an obligation to the poor and sick.
83
And how did Jesus react to the woman taken in adultery? Throw the stones of religious teaching at her? I don't find this ambiguous at all.
17
In addition it was a prostitute, violated by men, someone who had seen her selfhood denied by misogynistic hatred, that Christ chose to reveal himself first after defeating death. Without Mary Magdalene some have argued there would have been no perception of the Resurrection. Resurrection would have remained unseen like the proverbial tree that falls in the forest and no one hears it. Without Resurrection there would have been no Christianity.
I say it is time to have a woman Pope not just one who honors women and treats them as equals to men.
I say it is time to have a woman Pope not just one who honors women and treats them as equals to men.
2
In the South Indian state of Kerala, there's an adage, that, roughly translated, says:
"Even if God blesses you, the priest may not."
As I read this column, I was thinking there is some universal truth to that saying.
"Even if God blesses you, the priest may not."
As I read this column, I was thinking there is some universal truth to that saying.
26
What Ross Douthat calls "the authority of tradition" was seriously damaged within the Catholic church long before the Pope issued this latest letter on marriage and the family.
The Pope and other fathers of the church continue to forbid and condemn the use of birth control, calling it a "grave evil" that merits an eternity in hell. And the overwhelming majority of Catholics--more than 90 percent--completely ignore them. The elderly males at the top of the Catholic hierarchy have no authority whatsoever on this issue, and as a result their authority is seriously undermined in other areas as well.
How far out of step Ross Douthat is with most Catholics is shown by the term he uses to speak about the improvements modernity has brought to the lives of women: "Sexual Revolution." Social conservatives, who consider sex disgusting and dirty, try to smear all women who have moved beyond traditional social limitations by implying that it's all about being contraceptive-using sluts. It isn't. It's about achieving and taking advantage of increased opportunities to flourish in education, business, the arts and other spheres of life.
To use Douthat's own words,"there is an essential sameness" among fundamentalists in all religious traditions, from conservative Catholics to Protestant evangelicals to the Taliban. They're all filled with an incomprehensible fear and loathing of female sexuality, and they consider women a lower form of life to be dominated and controlled by men.
The Pope and other fathers of the church continue to forbid and condemn the use of birth control, calling it a "grave evil" that merits an eternity in hell. And the overwhelming majority of Catholics--more than 90 percent--completely ignore them. The elderly males at the top of the Catholic hierarchy have no authority whatsoever on this issue, and as a result their authority is seriously undermined in other areas as well.
How far out of step Ross Douthat is with most Catholics is shown by the term he uses to speak about the improvements modernity has brought to the lives of women: "Sexual Revolution." Social conservatives, who consider sex disgusting and dirty, try to smear all women who have moved beyond traditional social limitations by implying that it's all about being contraceptive-using sluts. It isn't. It's about achieving and taking advantage of increased opportunities to flourish in education, business, the arts and other spheres of life.
To use Douthat's own words,"there is an essential sameness" among fundamentalists in all religious traditions, from conservative Catholics to Protestant evangelicals to the Taliban. They're all filled with an incomprehensible fear and loathing of female sexuality, and they consider women a lower form of life to be dominated and controlled by men.
116
It's also telling that Douthat capitalizes both "Scripture" and "Sexual Revolution", apparently putting them on the same plane of existence.
1
"And the overwhelming majority of Catholics--more than 90 percent--completely ignore them."
I've no idea what your research source for that remark is (I suspect the inside of your head) but I think you mean the majority of US Catholics. The word Catholic means universal, not American. Both the article and most of the comments here are hopelessly US-centric, which means they take as their premise that the Catholic faith is some sort of pick and mix religion wherein everyone gets a vote on where it should go next. It isn't. If you think contraception designed to prevent birth is OK, you are not a Catholic, just someone pretending to be one. If you think abortion is OK; you are not a Catholic. If you think that divorce is OK, you are not a Catholic. If you think that an active homosexual relationship is OK, you are not a Catholic. If you think that you can ignore what the Pope says regarding faith and morals, you are not a Catholic. Just an American.
I've no idea what your research source for that remark is (I suspect the inside of your head) but I think you mean the majority of US Catholics. The word Catholic means universal, not American. Both the article and most of the comments here are hopelessly US-centric, which means they take as their premise that the Catholic faith is some sort of pick and mix religion wherein everyone gets a vote on where it should go next. It isn't. If you think contraception designed to prevent birth is OK, you are not a Catholic, just someone pretending to be one. If you think abortion is OK; you are not a Catholic. If you think that divorce is OK, you are not a Catholic. If you think that an active homosexual relationship is OK, you are not a Catholic. If you think that you can ignore what the Pope says regarding faith and morals, you are not a Catholic. Just an American.
2
Fortunately, if you do not believe in Catholic dogma or theology -- there are at least a hundred or more OTHER CHURCHES and doctrines you can go and belong to. Or no religion at all. Or make up your OWN religion.
Those social conservatives you hate so much -- most are not even Catholic. Ted Cruz? Not Catholic. Donald Trump? Not Catholic. Grover Norquest? A MUSLIM! Eric Cantor was an Orthodox Jew. Mitt Romney was a MORMON.
Some Catholic "conspiracy".
Those social conservatives you hate so much -- most are not even Catholic. Ted Cruz? Not Catholic. Donald Trump? Not Catholic. Grover Norquest? A MUSLIM! Eric Cantor was an Orthodox Jew. Mitt Romney was a MORMON.
Some Catholic "conspiracy".
1
How many pedophile priests have to be arrested and how many straight-to-the-Vatican cover-ups have to be exposed before we can ask American Catholics (politely) to go clean up their own houses and leave the rest of us alone for a while?
25
In what sense are they not leaving "the rest of us" alone? Other than providing some entertainment for those watching all the wringing of hands, none of this has any relevance to non-Catholics, and even less to the non-religious.
"In what sense are they not leaving "the rest of us" alone?"
Well, for one thing, the Times has this strident columnist named Ross Douthat. Or would you like to discuss The Little Sisters of the Poor and their war against biologically functioning women? Until a few weeks ago a Roman Catholic majority on the Supreme Court has been chipping away at the separation of church and state. The mainstream media, politicians, even civilians are expected to show respect and deference to the church and its clergy as if they were not fatally tainted by the most horrifying sex and conspiracy scandal in American history. Do I really need to continue?
Well, for one thing, the Times has this strident columnist named Ross Douthat. Or would you like to discuss The Little Sisters of the Poor and their war against biologically functioning women? Until a few weeks ago a Roman Catholic majority on the Supreme Court has been chipping away at the separation of church and state. The mainstream media, politicians, even civilians are expected to show respect and deference to the church and its clergy as if they were not fatally tainted by the most horrifying sex and conspiracy scandal in American history. Do I really need to continue?
So the new policy is "come back to the church and bring your checkbook"?
17
POPE FRANCIS Is a great soul, a loving leader and a humble man who practices his humility. I see much in his current statements that relate to traditional Jewish teachings. Since Jesus was born Jewish and had no intention of starting a new religion during his lifetime (about which there are no contemporary accounts that survive as documents), it is logical to look at the contemporary religious practices to understand more about his world. Jesus taught, Love your neighbor as yourself. Looking at his statements literally, he practiced inclusiveness and encouraged others to do so. By leaving the comforts of his modest residence to minister to the poor and to wash their feet, the Pope is leading by example. He embraced his former student who is gay and was accompanied by his husband. When his student's Aunt asked the Pope to pray for her, he said, please pray for me too. In this world of pressures, alienation and materialism, to see a spiritual leader who brings us back to ourselves is a great gift to humanity. I hope that the members of the Catholic Church will study the Pope's teachings to see how they can bring more love and acceptance into a world where there are so many crises and so much anger.
44
Paul, the father of Christian theology, summed it up in Galatians 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Inspired by Jesus who said "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:34.
All the rest is just doctrinal gobbledygook.
All the rest is just doctrinal gobbledygook.
97
The Golden Rule was far from new when Jesus said it.
The Golden Rule is taken directly from Leviticus 19:18: love thy neighbor as thyself.
1
Which took it from other, more ancient writings.
Oh, Ross. Wake up. You and your conservative friends are in a tizzy because the Pope doesn't want to lay down a bright line that will give you and your pals permission to declare which specific other people are in mortal sin. The Pope wants the church to focus on love and welcome, not on arbitrating the holiness, virtue or sin in other people. Why is it essential to have strict rules in order to love people? Why does the church have to cut off those who (on the church's terms) are most in need of Jesus's love? There may have once been a day when people didn't remarry because the church told them they couldn't. That day has passed. They are going to remarry, and the church can say "you're a sinner, welcome" or "we don't want you." Smell the coffee.
108
What Pope Francis' Statement on Family does is far more important than any "truce". It divides the ideal from the practical in a fallen world. It does so in the same way Jesus did it in the Bible when he prevented a stoning: he upheld the principle with unusual and modern relevance, recognized we can't reach the ideal fully here on earth, and dispensed grace for practical recovery in real life situations. To read this document solely as a political fight is to miss it's majesty.
35
Talking about Douthat's own slippage from the Pop wanting to be more inclusive to smelling post-Marxist odor. Douthat is always looking for the stern father who is highly critical and disciplinary and cannot stand the current papa who tries to be gentle, kind, open and inclusive (to wishy washy, too feminine). For Douthat, this Pop lacsk of authority and uncertainty and his teachings would not last. Until the next Pop who came back and whip everyone (gays, nuns, divorced) into their rightful place, Douthat would not be able to sleep easy. Paging S Freud, where are you when we need you.
21
In the Catholic Church that Ross Douthat sees heading toward a crises because the new, forming "center" cannot hold, punishment or banishment from participation in the sacraments is the glue that cements current orthodoxy.
I get the impression, although it is hard to know with certainty, that this Pope has a different idea. After reading his book latest book on Mercy, I get the impression that punishment is a tool he rarely uses, certainly not for something like divorce, or lifestyle preferences. I think he'd like to bring the Church closer to the people--maybe all the people not just its members--and bring some of its leaders around to the point of understanding that they and the Church have a duty be kinder, more merciful, more understanding of people who may, for one or another reason, find their lives in personal crisis. Any teaching that leads a big, powerful institution like the Church and its leaders to be more compassionate and inclusive of those whose lives do not conform to a "rule" or a "doctrine" is a teaching worthy of acceptance and respect.
I get the impression, although it is hard to know with certainty, that this Pope has a different idea. After reading his book latest book on Mercy, I get the impression that punishment is a tool he rarely uses, certainly not for something like divorce, or lifestyle preferences. I think he'd like to bring the Church closer to the people--maybe all the people not just its members--and bring some of its leaders around to the point of understanding that they and the Church have a duty be kinder, more merciful, more understanding of people who may, for one or another reason, find their lives in personal crisis. Any teaching that leads a big, powerful institution like the Church and its leaders to be more compassionate and inclusive of those whose lives do not conform to a "rule" or a "doctrine" is a teaching worthy of acceptance and respect.
51
It seems to me that this tension between dogma and practice is not new from Francis. I see the same attitude and behavior in Jesus, for example in his dealings with the Samaritan woman at the well.
22
A divorced Catholic can finally get communion, but it's decided on a case by case basis? Pretty glacial "progress."
22
Whether or not one would partake of communion should be a personal matter between the individual and God. The church should have no authority to deny this sacrament to anyone. The Apostle Paul teaches in ( 1 Corinthians 11:27-28) " So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink of the cup." We should " examine ourselves". The role of the church is nor mentioned.
33
Far be it from someone like me ("lapsed Catholic" who plans never to go back) it is the priest's duty to prevent the sacrilege to the Host, which is exactly what happens when a person in a grievous state of sin attempts to receive the sacrament of Communion.
2
That is the reality in practice. Does you local priest know who your are? That you are divorced and remarried? Unless you are in a very small town, it really is up to your own conscience, the same as if you are not in a state of grace for other sins. Did you cheat on your spouse and not confess it? No one knows so it is up to you to 'police' yourself before communion. As to whether or not the church should have the authority to deny communion, of course it should. If you reject that authority, go elsewhere.
1
It maybe true in the Catholic Church as it is not only hierachical it also has a leader in matters of doctrine is infallible. Besides the rules based splits as evidence by Reform and Orthodox Jews there is the relationship between man and God. Some see the relationship as needing to be mediated through the institutional religion and its leaders. Others seek a direct connection to God. It is interesting that Douthat left that split out.
9
The infallibility doctrine of the church is very narrow. The Pope has to proclaim that he is speaking 'from the chair of Peter,' which is very rarely done. Though many Catholics also believe that the Pope is infallible in all matters of 'faith and morals' at all times, that is not actually church teaching (though the conservative hierarchy seems to do little to re-educate the people on that belief).
4
Greenbum repeats a common misperception that Catholics believe their pope to be infallible. Infallability, FWIW, is a special doctrine only drawn upon in certain, rare instances, and was only defined at the First Vatican Council in the mid-ninetheenth century. It's number of uses has been rare. So no, Catholics don't go around blindly believing everything their leader says is without error--particularly, the moral teachings, which do not fall within the purview of infallability as defined at Vatican I.
2
"the informal admission of remarried Catholics to communion by sympathetic priests."
Is this just a polite way of saying the Pope is passing the buck? What's happened to "The Buck Stops Here"?
To clean up the old Navy axiom (and I'm sure an axiom in any hierarchal bureaucracy...):
"Stuff" flow down hill.
Is this just a polite way of saying the Pope is passing the buck? What's happened to "The Buck Stops Here"?
To clean up the old Navy axiom (and I'm sure an axiom in any hierarchal bureaucracy...):
"Stuff" flow down hill.
1
Some churches split off to follow their own beliefs.
The Catholic Church is different. It conceives of itself as embracing all. The very word "catholic" means "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing." Therefore, that sort of "truce" Douthat discusses is what it means to be "catholic" about anything.
Pope Francis seems to understand that as defining the Church he leads. Douthat does not.
If Douthat just must be right in his own narrow way, he isn't being catholic, his thinking is anti-catholic, my way or the highway. He needs to find a narrow-minded little Protestant church somewhere that agrees with him on enough so they can tolerate each other long enough to fight about the rest.
The Catholic Church is different. It conceives of itself as embracing all. The very word "catholic" means "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing." Therefore, that sort of "truce" Douthat discusses is what it means to be "catholic" about anything.
Pope Francis seems to understand that as defining the Church he leads. Douthat does not.
If Douthat just must be right in his own narrow way, he isn't being catholic, his thinking is anti-catholic, my way or the highway. He needs to find a narrow-minded little Protestant church somewhere that agrees with him on enough so they can tolerate each other long enough to fight about the rest.
169
Not really -- in Europe, there are definitely rebel branches of the Catholic faith.
Catholics have had schism before -- and endured.
Pope Francis is 80, and while Pope's have lived longer than that....frankly, he's at the outside edge of male life expectancy. There will be other Pope's after Francis and very likely, more conservative than he is.
Catholics have had schism before -- and endured.
Pope Francis is 80, and while Pope's have lived longer than that....frankly, he's at the outside edge of male life expectancy. There will be other Pope's after Francis and very likely, more conservative than he is.
1
As with Galileo and the geocentric view of the universe, the church got some things wrong and cannot admit this without revising its official view of itself as the only legitimate ambassador of God to mankind. It has already waffled on this official view by making itself the most legitimate ambassador and having dialogue with other faiths instead of crusading against them.
For example, in the late Middle Ages there was a vibrant synthesis of Islam, Christianity and Judaism in southern Spain, and Christianity waged a long struggle against it and won. This was the destruction of a peaceful synthesis that we are trying in vain to recreate; the fruits of this destruction are with us still, in the present state of the Middle East and the almost complete absence of Jews from central Europe.
We will never fully understand God, for we are both finite and corrupt. But our understanding of God is better now than it once was. We now understand that God does not like slavery or the position of wives as more or less belonging to their husbands. The parts of our great religions that never lost (or have regained and recreated) their old beliefs on slavery or women fill most of us with outrage and horror.
The church must update its understanding in some areas, to catch up with civilization or us or whatever. And to do this, it must discard the idea that it is infallible or its customs immutable. God alone is infallible; a human institution cannot be. Period.
For example, in the late Middle Ages there was a vibrant synthesis of Islam, Christianity and Judaism in southern Spain, and Christianity waged a long struggle against it and won. This was the destruction of a peaceful synthesis that we are trying in vain to recreate; the fruits of this destruction are with us still, in the present state of the Middle East and the almost complete absence of Jews from central Europe.
We will never fully understand God, for we are both finite and corrupt. But our understanding of God is better now than it once was. We now understand that God does not like slavery or the position of wives as more or less belonging to their husbands. The parts of our great religions that never lost (or have regained and recreated) their old beliefs on slavery or women fill most of us with outrage and horror.
The church must update its understanding in some areas, to catch up with civilization or us or whatever. And to do this, it must discard the idea that it is infallible or its customs immutable. God alone is infallible; a human institution cannot be. Period.
56
That Al Andalus was peaceful is a myth: http://www.abelard.org/briefings/islamic_tolerance_myth_spain.php
We will never understand a superstitious being (?). This superstitious being is infallible (?). You can't make this stuff up.
Vibrant synthesis? The Almoravids and Almohads would disagree with you. They were the Berber Muslims who displaced the earlier Muslim rulers, and they killed Jews just like Christians did.
1
Mr. Douthat is seething. He and his conservative minions in the Catholic Church did not get the fight they wanted, and that just makes for greater anger because it does not have a focused outlet. Pope Francis has endorsed the practice of communion for divorced and remarried Catholics without providing anything to rise up against. And someday it may even lead to recognition that, well, Mary wasn't exactly a virgin, but it's a nice story. And worse yet, ordination of women.
It *is* evolution in progress. Mr. Douthat's tribe is threatened and on the edge of endangerment. Resistance will only lead to eventual extinction.
It *is* evolution in progress. Mr. Douthat's tribe is threatened and on the edge of endangerment. Resistance will only lead to eventual extinction.
130
"He and his conservative minions in the Catholic Church did not get the fight they wanted."
Churchill: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
Churchill: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
2
I always thought the Catholic concept of Mary's forever viginity makes Joseph a chump, not to mention disowning Jesus's brother James. Curious because Joseph would have been a bad Jew if he did not have children. My uncle the priest said James was a cousin but the New testament is pretty clear on the 'brother' title for James.
1
This editorial is a simplistic spin on the Pope's teaching. It completely skips the issue of central (Rome) vs. local decision making. Vatican bureaucrats were deciding annulments without any direct, pastoral contact with Church members in real spiritual and pastoral need. Such a change should appeal to a conservative who supports states' rights...
It especially misses the ultimate goal which is to bring lost Catholics back to the Church. This goal is consistent with the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy. Emphasis on "mercy," not "condemnation."
Please, don't put this off on those "awful liberals" and their loose morality. Not even remotely accurate.
It especially misses the ultimate goal which is to bring lost Catholics back to the Church. This goal is consistent with the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy. Emphasis on "mercy," not "condemnation."
Please, don't put this off on those "awful liberals" and their loose morality. Not even remotely accurate.
142
If you want to see why Rome is needed as a final arbiter on annulments, see the Bobby Kennedy Jr. case, in which his divorced wife appealed to Rome an "annulment" by the local diocese and won. They're still married in God's eyes, something even the Kennedy millions couldn't change. And she's not even Catholic.
These kinds of pseudo-intellectual rationalizations and odd justifications for following beliefs unfortunately inherited from times before we even understood that the earth might not be flat or perhaps the sun did not rotate around the earth, the divinity's great creation, just make me despair. Come on, a man sworn to celibacy pontificates (sorry, couldn't resist) about how human beings should conduct their sexual lives, decides that our gay fellow humans have relationships somehow less valued than our straight ones. Even a probably kind man, as the Pope seems to be, is forced into such silly contortions to justify this nonsense. I'm not sure why we seem to be so regularly afflicted by these kinds of columns in the NYT. Being opposed to any modern forms of contraception in the light of third world poverty and misery, and opposed to abortion under any conditions, is too medieval, inhumane and bizarre to warrant any respect.
260
Totally agree Jack, not to mention the servile and inferior role allowed to women in the church—half the population!
1
While "theologians" discuss such theories as the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin, I read a story in Time magazine on sex slavery and rape in the Southern Sudan.
While celibate men are parsing truths, hundreds of thousands of women and girls are being raped as a part of war. To the victors go the spoils of war. A three month old baby was repeatedly raped in front of her mother. The MOTHER had to be held down by five soldiers as she fought and kicked to save her baby...until nothing was left but blood on the dirt floor. Nine year old girls raped until they are paralyzed from the waist down.
Horrors so explicit that I sobbed as I read the stories. And these "men" and that includes Ross are discussing the most vexing problem of the Catholic Church as being whether one should be able to continue to receive the sacraments after divorce????
Are you f****** kidding me? Millions of Syrians and other refugees from war torn countries are escaping death from brutal gangs or being turned away at borders.
You religious folks disgust me. You write laws allowing discrimination against those who differ from mainstream heterosexuality while genocide is occurring in the Congo, in Palestine, in tribal areas under the Boko Haram.
Whether it's ISIS or Christianity bizarre interpretations of papyrus writings can justify ANYTHING. Ted Cruz stands with evangelists who want gay men NOT allowed in the country or executed. Trump is ok with the KKK.
This is NOT 700 AD!
While celibate men are parsing truths, hundreds of thousands of women and girls are being raped as a part of war. To the victors go the spoils of war. A three month old baby was repeatedly raped in front of her mother. The MOTHER had to be held down by five soldiers as she fought and kicked to save her baby...until nothing was left but blood on the dirt floor. Nine year old girls raped until they are paralyzed from the waist down.
Horrors so explicit that I sobbed as I read the stories. And these "men" and that includes Ross are discussing the most vexing problem of the Catholic Church as being whether one should be able to continue to receive the sacraments after divorce????
Are you f****** kidding me? Millions of Syrians and other refugees from war torn countries are escaping death from brutal gangs or being turned away at borders.
You religious folks disgust me. You write laws allowing discrimination against those who differ from mainstream heterosexuality while genocide is occurring in the Congo, in Palestine, in tribal areas under the Boko Haram.
Whether it's ISIS or Christianity bizarre interpretations of papyrus writings can justify ANYTHING. Ted Cruz stands with evangelists who want gay men NOT allowed in the country or executed. Trump is ok with the KKK.
This is NOT 700 AD!
9
Ross, the light shines on all of us, to the degree that we are willing to acknowledge it, from a slightly different perspective. Hence, we are each likely to envision the mythic through unique eyes.
Thousands of years ago, while Hebrews imagined that they were receiving eternal commandments, commandants that Christians would later adopt as their own, Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists also concluded that they were arriving at an authoritative vision of truth, even if that truth tended to be more experiential and atmospheric than the Judaeo-Christian variety.
Ross, when a parent instructs a young child about to first encounter the adult world to not talk to strangers, they generally do not intend for that instruction to remain with the child in perpetuity. For as the child becomes a man, the loving parent hopes that they too will develop an ability to discriminate between potential friends and foes, between lovers and stalkers - and thus create a richer life for themselves in the larger world.
Yet conservatives continue to imagine that the author of this extraordinary and expansive (if also wildly impersonal and unpredictable) universe must be as controlling and dogmatic as a parent in a religious cult!
Ross, to live is to change and to grow. Pope Francis understand this - even if his detractors do not. The forms of yesterday are ultimately unimportant, for only the spirit survives - and this spirit, if it exists at all, is surely resurrected on a regular basis.
Thousands of years ago, while Hebrews imagined that they were receiving eternal commandments, commandants that Christians would later adopt as their own, Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists also concluded that they were arriving at an authoritative vision of truth, even if that truth tended to be more experiential and atmospheric than the Judaeo-Christian variety.
Ross, when a parent instructs a young child about to first encounter the adult world to not talk to strangers, they generally do not intend for that instruction to remain with the child in perpetuity. For as the child becomes a man, the loving parent hopes that they too will develop an ability to discriminate between potential friends and foes, between lovers and stalkers - and thus create a richer life for themselves in the larger world.
Yet conservatives continue to imagine that the author of this extraordinary and expansive (if also wildly impersonal and unpredictable) universe must be as controlling and dogmatic as a parent in a religious cult!
Ross, to live is to change and to grow. Pope Francis understand this - even if his detractors do not. The forms of yesterday are ultimately unimportant, for only the spirit survives - and this spirit, if it exists at all, is surely resurrected on a regular basis.
135
Nice post,
However,to the best of my knowledge, the Buddhists do not have
"an authoritative vision of truth" and if they do they have missed the point.
I enjoy your comments,
Enrico
However,to the best of my knowledge, the Buddhists do not have
"an authoritative vision of truth" and if they do they have missed the point.
I enjoy your comments,
Enrico
1
Perhaps all the religious rules are also up for grabs. Maybe it's time abandon those stupid old "commandments" about not stealing -- committing adultery -- or murder.
After all, maybe we have evolved beyond them.
After all, maybe we have evolved beyond them.
"Roman Catholicism, however, remains officially united".
That, indeed is the essential fact - "officially united". But de-facto there have been separate strains of "The Catholic Church" for years now, which live side by side in a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" limbo. Most catholics in the US and Western Europe practice birth control, don't tell, their priest does not ask, and they participate in all the sacraments. Even conservative Catholic countries like Ireland are moving towards legalizing abortion, and hell and damnation had not descended on them.
My father-in-law was a devout Catholic. The family had five children, which they could not afford, and barely scraped by for most of their lives. His fervent hope until late in life was that The Church would give up this idiotic prohibition. Finally he got so disgusted that he stopped going to church. This kind of experience was repeated over many years in many societies and The Church essentially closed both eyes and ignored the obvious in order to halt the mass exodus.
The response of the Catholic church to the child abuse scandals, protecting the guilty priests, Diocese after Diocese choosing to file for bankruptcy rather than admit the truth and compensate the victims, has just been one more nail on the coffin of a Church which pretends moral superiority while condoning the most disgusting activities in its midst.
That, indeed is the essential fact - "officially united". But de-facto there have been separate strains of "The Catholic Church" for years now, which live side by side in a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" limbo. Most catholics in the US and Western Europe practice birth control, don't tell, their priest does not ask, and they participate in all the sacraments. Even conservative Catholic countries like Ireland are moving towards legalizing abortion, and hell and damnation had not descended on them.
My father-in-law was a devout Catholic. The family had five children, which they could not afford, and barely scraped by for most of their lives. His fervent hope until late in life was that The Church would give up this idiotic prohibition. Finally he got so disgusted that he stopped going to church. This kind of experience was repeated over many years in many societies and The Church essentially closed both eyes and ignored the obvious in order to halt the mass exodus.
The response of the Catholic church to the child abuse scandals, protecting the guilty priests, Diocese after Diocese choosing to file for bankruptcy rather than admit the truth and compensate the victims, has just been one more nail on the coffin of a Church which pretends moral superiority while condoning the most disgusting activities in its midst.
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I am far from being an apologist for the church - for my church - but the truth is bankruptcy was a process that allowed more victims to receive compensation, rather than have the earliest claimants exhaust the assets before other victims had an opportunity for compensation. Bankruptcy filings were grounded in the admission of the truth, that many priests and many bishops committed abuse or aided and abetted it. The housecleaning must continue.
2
"A very solid scientific consensus indicates that we are presently witnessing a disturbing warming of the climatic system. ... A number of scientific studies indicate that most global warming in recent decades is due to the great concentration of greenhouse gases (carbon dioxide, methane, nitrogen oxides and others) released mainly as a result of human activity." Pope Francis
"What kind of world do we want to leave to those who come after us, to children who are now growing up?" Pope Francis
I know its all very interesting to parse papal positions and pastoral flexibility on marriage and who has sex with whom, but the Pope has been far more clear and emphatic about the existential risk of the current growth-obsessed trajectory of the human race.
Its unfortunate that so many in the Christian movement are obsessed about suppressing birth control and narrowing the definition of marriage while being silent or antagonistic on the science of climate change.
If you want to save souls, you might want to pay more attention to the Pope's encyclical addressing climate change.
"What kind of world do we want to leave to those who come after us, to children who are now growing up?" Pope Francis
I know its all very interesting to parse papal positions and pastoral flexibility on marriage and who has sex with whom, but the Pope has been far more clear and emphatic about the existential risk of the current growth-obsessed trajectory of the human race.
Its unfortunate that so many in the Christian movement are obsessed about suppressing birth control and narrowing the definition of marriage while being silent or antagonistic on the science of climate change.
If you want to save souls, you might want to pay more attention to the Pope's encyclical addressing climate change.
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Maybe he is trying to salvage the authority of a anti-sex institution that condones raping teenage boys, at least on an official level
Ross, I gather you are the type of Catholic that just loves being told what to do. Under every circumstance (hypothetical or real), chapter, paragraph, and verse. I suspect also that like many conservative Catholics, the notion of any change, any slight reinterpretation or revisiting of laws and rules made in ancient times based on ancient understandings gives you fit. Because, why, if you have been a strict observer of the law--dare I say, Pharisee?--why should others be left off the hook or given any slack?
While in Florida, I attended a parish mission led by a Paulist Priest who focused on the spirituality and development of Pope Francis throughout his pre-papal career. While the thrust was to understand the Pope's version of "mercy" in this Year of Divine Mercy, it was clear that Jorge Bergoglio had mastered the difference between literalism and realism--an essential component of compassion, eg, meeting people where they are in all the complexity of their lives.
Like many liberal Catholics, I would have liked more clarity but it's in this lack of clarity that Francis calls us to live. Do you realize that it takes greater effort to discern God's will and our role in fulfilling it, when things are, let's just say it, a bit inchoate? That the role of the parish priest should be less judge and more spiritual counselor?
Unlike you, I'm not one of those Catholics who thinks God keeps a scorecard-a pretty grim way to view one's faith.
While in Florida, I attended a parish mission led by a Paulist Priest who focused on the spirituality and development of Pope Francis throughout his pre-papal career. While the thrust was to understand the Pope's version of "mercy" in this Year of Divine Mercy, it was clear that Jorge Bergoglio had mastered the difference between literalism and realism--an essential component of compassion, eg, meeting people where they are in all the complexity of their lives.
Like many liberal Catholics, I would have liked more clarity but it's in this lack of clarity that Francis calls us to live. Do you realize that it takes greater effort to discern God's will and our role in fulfilling it, when things are, let's just say it, a bit inchoate? That the role of the parish priest should be less judge and more spiritual counselor?
Unlike you, I'm not one of those Catholics who thinks God keeps a scorecard-a pretty grim way to view one's faith.
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He also appears to be the kind of Catholic who loves telling others what to do.
103
Christine, I don't believe Ross Douhat necessarily likes being told what to do. In fact, it may be the opposite. It may be that the only reason he responds to church teaching is because he has taken church dogma to heart, believed what he was taught, and if he is going to be told to start questioning one part of it, why not question all of it? If he is going to accept that maybe the teaching doesn't work so well for some people, so shouldn't be taken quite so literally, why bother with it at all?
I think this is a perfectly rational response, devoid of sentimentality and reflects a willintgness to confront ones own beliefs and consider that they may be wrong.
I think this is a perfectly rational response, devoid of sentimentality and reflects a willintgness to confront ones own beliefs and consider that they may be wrong.
4
@DebbieR. Interestingly enough, many of the priests I've spoken to over the years have said questioning one's faith and exploring the tensions is part of faith itself. None more than the Jesuits-- so this Pope's tendency to suggest rather than command, to offer possibilities even if not spelled out, to hint at a key principle of Catholicism, freedom of conscience after considerable prayer and discussions with men of faith, is not at all surprising.
10
It might eventually be acknowledged that modernity can’t co-exist with a church that depends for its strategic viability on the fear of eternal metaphysical damnation the antidote for which is held only by that church, which will dispense it only on evidence that petitioners conform to behavioral dicta as complex as the body-shakes Chinese of social heft once used to communicate mutual respect for their own outré totems.
This was once an effective civilization-building tool to force people to conform to what elites regarded as productive behavioral norms; but lost effectiveness when global society increasingly adopted relativistic value systems. Ross discusses the RCC as if it were still relevant in some future historical sense. It’s probably not.
It may appear that extreme religion is on the rise globally, but that’s not the actual case. Every year fewer and fewer people really live by the tenets of established religion (http://americanhumanist.org/HNN/details/2012-04-the-state-of-religion-de.... Unless somehow we lose civilization, this trend will intensify as automation robs us of our work and survival beyond mere subsistence takes on an increasingly pressing importance. Most of us just want to fund a retirement and largely be left alone to our football games (American AND everyone else’s).
So, Ross’s interest in how many angels one can fit on the head of a pin is interesting, but most of us just want loose shoes and a few extra bucks.
This was once an effective civilization-building tool to force people to conform to what elites regarded as productive behavioral norms; but lost effectiveness when global society increasingly adopted relativistic value systems. Ross discusses the RCC as if it were still relevant in some future historical sense. It’s probably not.
It may appear that extreme religion is on the rise globally, but that’s not the actual case. Every year fewer and fewer people really live by the tenets of established religion (http://americanhumanist.org/HNN/details/2012-04-the-state-of-religion-de.... Unless somehow we lose civilization, this trend will intensify as automation robs us of our work and survival beyond mere subsistence takes on an increasingly pressing importance. Most of us just want to fund a retirement and largely be left alone to our football games (American AND everyone else’s).
So, Ross’s interest in how many angels one can fit on the head of a pin is interesting, but most of us just want loose shoes and a few extra bucks.
97
"it only on evidence that petitioners conform to behavioral dicta as complex as the body-shakes Chinese of social heft once used to communicate mutual respect for their own outré totems. "
Translation in English needed. What pray tell is behavioral dicta as complex as the body-shakes Chinese of social heft...? In fact what is the meaning of the rest of the sentence. And do most just want loose shoes and a few extra bucks? Dang, I wish I had a little green check, because this letter isn't going to get printed and I'll never find out what Richard is talking about.
Translation in English needed. What pray tell is behavioral dicta as complex as the body-shakes Chinese of social heft...? In fact what is the meaning of the rest of the sentence. And do most just want loose shoes and a few extra bucks? Dang, I wish I had a little green check, because this letter isn't going to get printed and I'll never find out what Richard is talking about.
3
Richard Luettgen -- While I largely agree on what you write here, there is another side of it.
There is a place in modern life for people to get together, sing, be accepted, and hear a considered aspirational talk about how to treat others with love and respect for their dignity and humanity. Done well, they leave feeling better and behaving better toward others, their lives enriched, and enriching the lives of those they affect.
That too is religion, and you don't even need to believe in myths to hear the wisdom and common sense in it, and to feel the love and fellowship.
This is why I feel the better churches belong in active politics, asserting their liberal agenda. We'd all be better off if the message of Pope Francis had more impact, both Catholics and non.
There is a place in modern life for people to get together, sing, be accepted, and hear a considered aspirational talk about how to treat others with love and respect for their dignity and humanity. Done well, they leave feeling better and behaving better toward others, their lives enriched, and enriching the lives of those they affect.
That too is religion, and you don't even need to believe in myths to hear the wisdom and common sense in it, and to feel the love and fellowship.
This is why I feel the better churches belong in active politics, asserting their liberal agenda. We'd all be better off if the message of Pope Francis had more impact, both Catholics and non.
3
Richard, we are often on opposite sides of issues, but I have to give you major kudos for your uncompromising rejection of the pipe dreams with which people amuse themselves. Epistemic closure, which adversely affects so much of our political dialogue, is eternally renewed in the echo chambers of organized religion.
3
"the indissolubility of marriage...what the church considers sin becomes mere 'irregularity'"--how Platonic. There is a belief, somewhere, by something known as "the church" that marriage is indissoluble. But the Pope himself, and millions of the members of this church know for a fact that marriages do sometimes somehow dissolve. Still, there exists somewhere in the ether a belief that this is not so. "And yet it dissolved," as Galileo might have said.
91
More important than the belief that marriage should be indissoluble is the practical wisdom that a stable marriage is essential during the growth to maturity of children. The Pope's emphasis on practice in better balance with doctrine seems to reflect this wisdom.
1
Father Douthat - it's always wonderful to see you deeply engrossed in the wonder and glory of 4th century religious law and your sacred Jesus myth.
As you travel though history, Ross, take some notes on some of the myths that the Jesus myth was based upon.
Horus (3100 BC) was one of many Egyptian Gods. Some say he had 12 disciples and was born of a virgin in a cave. His birth was announced by a star and was attended by three wise men. Horus performed miracles, including rising at least one person from the dead and walking on water. He was crucified, buried in a tomb, and resurrected, just like Jesus Christ.
Buddha (563 BC) - Buddha’s mother, Queen Maha Maya, had a dream that a white elephant with six tusks entered her right side, impregnating her. Buddha performed miracles, healed the sick, walked on water, fed 500 men from a single basket of cakes and taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
Mithra (2000 BC) was an ancient Zoroastrian deity born to the virgin Anahita on December 25th. He was swaddled and placed in a manger, where he was tended to by shepherds and was known as the messiah, the savior, and “the Way, the Truth and the Light.”
4. Krishna (3000 BC) a Hindu God born after his mother was impregnated by a God. His birth was attended by angels, wise men, and shepherds.
5. Osiris (2500 BC) the son of an Egyptian God, his myth says he was killed and the resurrected after three days in hell.
Happy myth-making, Ross !
As you travel though history, Ross, take some notes on some of the myths that the Jesus myth was based upon.
Horus (3100 BC) was one of many Egyptian Gods. Some say he had 12 disciples and was born of a virgin in a cave. His birth was announced by a star and was attended by three wise men. Horus performed miracles, including rising at least one person from the dead and walking on water. He was crucified, buried in a tomb, and resurrected, just like Jesus Christ.
Buddha (563 BC) - Buddha’s mother, Queen Maha Maya, had a dream that a white elephant with six tusks entered her right side, impregnating her. Buddha performed miracles, healed the sick, walked on water, fed 500 men from a single basket of cakes and taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
Mithra (2000 BC) was an ancient Zoroastrian deity born to the virgin Anahita on December 25th. He was swaddled and placed in a manger, where he was tended to by shepherds and was known as the messiah, the savior, and “the Way, the Truth and the Light.”
4. Krishna (3000 BC) a Hindu God born after his mother was impregnated by a God. His birth was attended by angels, wise men, and shepherds.
5. Osiris (2500 BC) the son of an Egyptian God, his myth says he was killed and the resurrected after three days in hell.
Happy myth-making, Ross !
408
looks like horus has a good case of intellectual property theft
all those other gods are just stealing his act
all those other gods are just stealing his act
21
Socrates, you are really on a tear today, more offensive in your comments than clever. The election hype must be getting to you - maybe take a few days off. I usually appreciate and like your comments and find them illuminating, but not today.
3
Socrates, Please provide references for these assertions. It's very annoying when statements such as these can't be verified by those of us who haven't been educated about these ancient cultures.
4
It gives me the willies to hear an educated adult throw around terms like mortal sin, especially when the history of most modern religions has been one of liberalization. Do we really want a Catholic Church of the kind that gave us the Inquisition, or imprisoned Galileo?
It’s telling that religion splits along the same liberal-conservative divide as does politics and attitudes about social justice. It seems that religion has less to do with the will of some invisible deity than it does the will of human beings, and how they feel about people who are different from them.
The conservative Republican plan for America is to bring down God’s vengeance on wanton women, gays, immigrants and the poor. One gets the impression that conservatives would feel this way with or without a God. But it’s easier to impose your will upon ordinary people if you claim to be an Agent of the Divine, someone who knows the ineffable mind of God and can back up their bigotry with the approval of an omnipotent celestial bully.
Condemning divorce is something out of the middle ages. It reeks of hypocrisy, especially coming from a Church that abetted the rape of children. Pope Francis knows this, and is trying to downplay those parts of Catholic doctrine that punish and condemn the faithful.
This won’t please everyone. Those that doubt God will do His job in the next life are eager to punish and condemn transgressors in this one. Otherwise, what's an Agent of the Divine for?
It’s telling that religion splits along the same liberal-conservative divide as does politics and attitudes about social justice. It seems that religion has less to do with the will of some invisible deity than it does the will of human beings, and how they feel about people who are different from them.
The conservative Republican plan for America is to bring down God’s vengeance on wanton women, gays, immigrants and the poor. One gets the impression that conservatives would feel this way with or without a God. But it’s easier to impose your will upon ordinary people if you claim to be an Agent of the Divine, someone who knows the ineffable mind of God and can back up their bigotry with the approval of an omnipotent celestial bully.
Condemning divorce is something out of the middle ages. It reeks of hypocrisy, especially coming from a Church that abetted the rape of children. Pope Francis knows this, and is trying to downplay those parts of Catholic doctrine that punish and condemn the faithful.
This won’t please everyone. Those that doubt God will do His job in the next life are eager to punish and condemn transgressors in this one. Otherwise, what's an Agent of the Divine for?
457
Other than the mini-rant on Republicans that validates this comment as gemli's, I can agree with a lot of it purely on religion. It's good to know that a mainstream Republican occasionally can agree with an avatar of the unchained, potted liberati -- gives us hope for life beyond Trump ... or the Tea Party.
20
" Do we really want a Catholic Church of the kind that gave us the Inquisition, or imprisoned Galileo?"
We may not, but Douthat has made pretty clear over the years that he would welcome it.
We may not, but Douthat has made pretty clear over the years that he would welcome it.
42
If today's Christians really followed the teachings of Christ, they would be Democrats.
33
"disagreements about the authority of tradition"
No. The disagreements are about reconciling enlightenment with religion. As time goes on, humanity progresses and the most conservative among us resist change. At this point in time, the conservative among us are in a fight to the death of democracy not only on keeping religious orthodoxy in a state of supremacy, but imposing religiosity on the rest of us through control over educational curriculum, the nature of scientific research and scientific facts, the denial of the reality around us, the denial that social welfare and government and religion don't cancel each other out, up to and including denigrating Pope Francis who, very easily, has shown us time and again that you can be a good person, a believer, and believe in science and others' right to live in a modern world, hold modern beliefs and still remain true to religion.
This is about control and about alliances made to retain control, using religion and false prophets in order to establish supremacy. http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-qm This is what the "establishment" on the right has done and exactly what is being rejected in the success of Donald Trump's candidacy, regardless of the fact that he doesn't represent what those who vote for him think he represents.
Pope Francis, when it comes to religion, is still a Jesuit; learned and pragmatic. As a pope, he's doing the very same things all popes before him have done: keep the faith.
---
www.rimaregas.com
No. The disagreements are about reconciling enlightenment with religion. As time goes on, humanity progresses and the most conservative among us resist change. At this point in time, the conservative among us are in a fight to the death of democracy not only on keeping religious orthodoxy in a state of supremacy, but imposing religiosity on the rest of us through control over educational curriculum, the nature of scientific research and scientific facts, the denial of the reality around us, the denial that social welfare and government and religion don't cancel each other out, up to and including denigrating Pope Francis who, very easily, has shown us time and again that you can be a good person, a believer, and believe in science and others' right to live in a modern world, hold modern beliefs and still remain true to religion.
This is about control and about alliances made to retain control, using religion and false prophets in order to establish supremacy. http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-qm This is what the "establishment" on the right has done and exactly what is being rejected in the success of Donald Trump's candidacy, regardless of the fact that he doesn't represent what those who vote for him think he represents.
Pope Francis, when it comes to religion, is still a Jesuit; learned and pragmatic. As a pope, he's doing the very same things all popes before him have done: keep the faith.
---
www.rimaregas.com
77
"...reconciling enlightenment with tradition." Well put, Rima. I hope I live long enough to see all the world's religious traditions, including nonbelievers, realize the necessity and the wisdom of this, if we are ever to coexist in peace.
3
Yeah, Father Doubt That likes disagreements about the authority of tradition, allowing him to stomp his feet and declare Pope Francis wrong, wrong, wrong. Hey, Father, don't you accept the infallibility of the Pope on matters of faith?
4
Truce? No, Mr. Douthat it's simply a tiny little smoke screen to try to get the heat off them. The catholic church hid international institutionalized child sexual abuse for probably centuries. Programmed pedophilia. And they pretend they have the moral right to tell over one-half the world's population -women - what they can do with their own bodies? It is an OUTRAGE because they have managed to get their hooks into America's health care system and try to force everyone to adhere to their archaic beliefs. It is an OUTRAGE! The catholic church and all it's supposed "non-profit" VERY profitable businesses should be dismantled, the places of worship turned into community shelters for battered women and homeless shelters and the wealth returned to the people who funded it - direct payment to the taxpayers of each country, state, city and other governmental regions. Vatican wealth can be transferred back to the countries where the most was stolen through government contracts and tax breaks; America will win on that one. Put this archaic religious institution OUT of business.
226
Here in Maryland the state legislature is again trying to vote to extend the statute of limitations for young people abused by pedophiles to file a civil suit.
The bill has been blocked, for many years, by the Roman Catholic Church.
They feel that extending time for these victims would be unfair to their old reprobate priests.
I am ineligible for communion because my ex-wife ran off years ago with a pizza man- and sent me a bill for alimony.
Any sane person who subscribes to the dictates of this RICO organization should have his head examined.
The bill has been blocked, for many years, by the Roman Catholic Church.
They feel that extending time for these victims would be unfair to their old reprobate priests.
I am ineligible for communion because my ex-wife ran off years ago with a pizza man- and sent me a bill for alimony.
Any sane person who subscribes to the dictates of this RICO organization should have his head examined.
32
No, there is not an international conspiracy. There are only the evils inherent in a hierarchical social structure. There are far more good people in Catholicism and every other organized religion than there are greedy, power addicted abusers of the weak. People in the billions are drawn to, and aspire to grasp, the golden thread that runs through religious practices and frankly, the lives of most of the Atheists I know. Research has shown, however, that that the perception of having power over others blunts the feeling of empathy we have towards those we think are below us. Holding tightly to that golden thread can sometimes prevent that devolution of values but it is a steep slippery path. Princes of the Church, just like the princes of our own corporate aristocracy, have to fight hard to avoid unconsciously replacing the Golden Rule with the pursuit of their own power and privilege. Otherwise they inevitably fail to "see" the wrongs they are doing to others. "Won't someone take care of this?", says the King, or the Bishop, or the CEO, and their respective minions do great evil in their name. They hide the child abuser, the polluter, kill the truth teller, disguise the dishonest business practices, and ignore the suffering of their victims.
6
I mostly agree with you but, as respects the church telling women what they can do with their bodies and lives, I think that any adult woman that adheres to a theology that considers her a second class citizen, not suitable for church leadership and not even capable of deciding for herself as to contraception, shares part of the blame.
The church's prohibition against contraception is, nonetheless, an outrage--it condemns developing countries around the world to poverty and condemns the planet to environmental destruction. The church's restrictions on divorce are pernicious as they leave people, particularly women, in abusive relationships. And while the church itself isn't guilty of violence against gay people, its prohibition against gay marriage gives solace to those who commit such violence.
IMHO the church can practice whatever superstitions it likes, so long as it's not hurting someone in the process. But some of its superstitions are clearly hurting people.
The church's prohibition against contraception is, nonetheless, an outrage--it condemns developing countries around the world to poverty and condemns the planet to environmental destruction. The church's restrictions on divorce are pernicious as they leave people, particularly women, in abusive relationships. And while the church itself isn't guilty of violence against gay people, its prohibition against gay marriage gives solace to those who commit such violence.
IMHO the church can practice whatever superstitions it likes, so long as it's not hurting someone in the process. But some of its superstitions are clearly hurting people.
15