1992 Rouge Warrior, and others of the Rouge Warrior series by Richard Marcinko USN, Plank owner of Team 6. We are getting in a tizzy about books from former SEALs now. I hear a cry bully in the midst.
Whatever the denouement of this argument, we're desperate for political and judicial etc. leadership with character and courage. The current leadership standard - characterless, cowardly wimps (e.g. Obama, the supreme libs, so much of congress and the judiciary) is discouraging beyond saying. We're desperate. So more power to these guys.
1
I'd say the last round of tough-talking chicken hawks so prominent in the last adminstration are a much better example of your leadership critique.
There may be some in this country that are hungry for the type of military-style authoritarianism you describe as missing in our civilian leadership, but thankfully the majority doesn't want or need that in our elected officials.
There may be some in this country that are hungry for the type of military-style authoritarianism you describe as missing in our civilian leadership, but thankfully the majority doesn't want or need that in our elected officials.
6
Every other SEAL who has gone public must have wanted the same kind of fame that Chris Kyle had achieved, even with an Oscar and best-seller books as postscript to their name. Their allure rests in large part on the mystique of this elite team, no doubt the first few of them can cash in with some fame and certain fortune. For all those that follow, it's beginning to feel like lemmings.
7
Be careful not to deride the very people who provide the safety you take for granted.
Lots of big talk from fatties behind keyboards here.
Put your money where your mouth is and join up.
THEN you can make assessments.
Lots of big talk from fatties behind keyboards here.
Put your money where your mouth is and join up.
THEN you can make assessments.
1
Name one war where our freedoms have been at stake
11
"Jocko Willink and Leif Babin, who published a book about leadership aimed at business managers. When they appeared on Fox News, they also used the platform to attack President Obama’s defense policies."
This crosses the line. Obama was and is their Commander and Chief. As members of the US military, they should respect that position and understand that command decisions usually involve information that they do not have access to.
This crosses the line. Obama was and is their Commander and Chief. As members of the US military, they should respect that position and understand that command decisions usually involve information that they do not have access to.
16
Please please think before you speak or write. these are men who as part of our society must deal with some of the same problems such as narcissism and when you have bought in to you are special, no one can do what you do, it will effect how you think of your self. It takes a very strong, stable and mature person to keep his head. The Navy brass have also used these men for their own purposes which has not been good for the teams. Just a note the 19 seals were killed in 2005 long before President Obama was in office.
3
Why does a soldier strive to be elite? Very few for the reason they would have you believe, the reason that we want to believe; to be effective as possible in defending and promoting the rights of Americans and of people throughout the world. No, most soldiers strive to be elite for glory, to earn the respect and admiration of their fathers who also served and/or of everyone else. Elite military units have always drawn such glory-seekers, and our military would not be the power that it is without them.
Learn from Bond 007 dudes! If every bartender knows you like your martini shaken-not-stirred then you cannot be a special elite secret agent. The more these guys become exposed, exploited and get drawn into a cheap popular celebrity culture less effective SEALS will be when you need their high level commando camaraderie, secrecy and their unique organized efficiency. Our cheap celebrity culture not only ruins cheap celebrities..it ruins ordinary decent people, good professionals, intellectuals, academics, researches and good leaders or those with potential. Celebrity TV media needs to be sued. It is now hurting national security urity. They certainly support free-dumb.
4
I thought the whole point of Navy Seals was the honor to be one and the willingness to be quiet about your achievements. I do not agree with the new fad of bragging about what they do. I think it ruins the whole privilege of being one.
14
Early in my military career, I was attached to a military health clinic that treated special operators. They did not talk about their missions and were more likely to tell me they fell off a motorcycle then tell me how an injury actually happened. That quiet service changed when SEAL TEAM SIX and other special operators became celebrities. When the White House and Cabinet secretaries began talking about special operations guys like they were members of their family (or their decision to send special ops guys into battle was the "tough" part of a military mission), there was little doubt that special operators were losing control of their narrative. It is great that we have men to put it all on the line to do the dangerous missions that are required of a democracy protected each night by men and women willing to face any threat, but there is a point when saturation of operators and experts become gauche (I think we're there). By and until the Navy and other military organizations stop selling the heroism of special operators, how can anybody expect or ask the men who actually did the mission not to tell the tale? I wish they didn't, but the special ops community has to stop it from happening and the only way to do it is to correct the record when somebody inflates their record with that of others. We should get back to the point where a special operator has anonymity, but it seems that ship has sailed and it will be terribly difficult to get that genie back in the bottle.
6
Other special forces seem to do a good job at keeping their mouths shut.
4
As a combat infantry 'Grunt' from Vietnam I would love to hear the outrage I still feel for President George W, Bush and Vice Dick Cheney who sent off men to die in the completely Unnecessary Iraq War based on the lies they told. Two spineless politicians who avoided combat by staying safe at home during the Vietnam War. Cheney said, " I had better things to do ", as if those now buried couldn't have spent their lives better. We shall probably never see a more incompetent President than George W. Bush. All the public adoration of men trained to kill should be seen for all it is, a way to make mistakes by Politicians look good.
15
Prove it.
@SFCamerica One word: WMDs.
7
This is the natural progression of perpetual war machine
7
...typical of our age and nauseating....
Everything's for sale in mercantile America.
Even Socialism.
I am going to be sick.
Everything's for sale in mercantile America.
Even Socialism.
I am going to be sick.
7
What you realize from these people is that what it takes to be a SEAL is resolve.
What is really scary is the guys they fight, who have no training and know they will die. And they are keenly watching and learning.
At the end of the day real soldiers don't talk!
Because every little bit of info makes the enemy stronger.
What is really scary is the guys they fight, who have no training and know they will die. And they are keenly watching and learning.
At the end of the day real soldiers don't talk!
Because every little bit of info makes the enemy stronger.
3
Apparently, even Seals annot resist selfies.
6
We live in a free country. As long as a Seal is not breaking the law, it is his prerogative to decide if he wants to advertise or conceal his Seal training. It is a personal choice and no one should judge that choice. Until you have gone through the training and risked your life liquidating an enemy you will never know what it is like to walk in these shoes. As Seals well know, the only east day was yesterday. It pays to be a winner, and Seals are winners.
1
What's an "east day"?
A true military man, sailor,soldier, marine or air force, kills to protect and keeps quiet. What, they like killing? No.
5
The nineteen seals slaughtered as a result of Joe Biden and obama bragging about getting Bin Laden., not any seals blurting out stories about the operation. The proper way to handle it would be no public announcement. The Pakistanis could not reveal that they had been hiding him for years. Morons that never risked their lives for their country posing and strutting got people killed for their cheap political stunt.
5
Uh those 19 men died in 2005.
13
You seem to ne confused about how causity works: the death of people in 2005 cannot be "the resul of" action of a president elected in 2008. Thank you for once again demonstrating that people who have decided to hate Obama will invent stories that defy logic, reason, facts, and even basic counting skills to provide self-assurance.
12
This is what happens when the men are fighting aren't patriots often times now but narcissistic hedonist.
2
So two SEALS no longer serving gave an opinion on Obama? So what? I didn't realize that the President was above criticism.
6
I guess there's more demand for books that describe the overseas adventures of former Navy SEALS than those that tell of the overseas experiences of ex-Peace Corps Volunteers, like me. "War versus Peace". Sadly, war wins every time.
7
Since when are public servants not allowed to make money from their experiences? First stop Congress members from becoming lobbyists; then worry about SEALS publishing memoirs.
6
Since the SEAL ethos specifically says not to seek credit.
I am with you on the revolving door. What you fail to see is thay SEALs are now joining the problem, despite SPECIFIC pledges to keep their mouths shut.
I am with you on the revolving door. What you fail to see is thay SEALs are now joining the problem, despite SPECIFIC pledges to keep their mouths shut.
5
As a veteran I find it troubling the continuing fascination our general public has death and warfare.
Maybe if we brought back the draft many of the juveniles among us might come to realize the war should never be viewed as a form of entertainment, but instead an obscenity necessitates that it is fought by those who have the real courage to put their lives on the line for a overwhelmingly clueless and undeserving nation.
Maybe if we brought back the draft many of the juveniles among us might come to realize the war should never be viewed as a form of entertainment, but instead an obscenity necessitates that it is fought by those who have the real courage to put their lives on the line for a overwhelmingly clueless and undeserving nation.
10
In the larger context, we see that the whole problem with the world is not the unequal distribution of money or resources, but rather the uneven distribution of freedom and capitalism.
These SEALs project American strength and values. We fight for human rights against those animals and tyrants who oppress and murder innocent people. If freedom is to overcome tyranny, then these SEALs, and those damn few like them, are the best ambasasadors for that literal and symbolic fight.
These SEALs project American strength and values. We fight for human rights against those animals and tyrants who oppress and murder innocent people. If freedom is to overcome tyranny, then these SEALs, and those damn few like them, are the best ambasasadors for that literal and symbolic fight.
3
How is this any different from someone who brags they went to Harvard, when pitching themselves? Who hides their light under a bushel, anymore?
Bragging that you went to Harvard does not penitentially get your colleagues killed by publicizing classified TTPs (tactics, techniques, and procedures).
6
In these times government agencies and any prominent members of them are only doing what every organization, public or "private" is now focusing on: i.e. "business" and "money". Why should the Seals, org and individual, be expected to do any differently? As now the formerly proud professions and institutions of medicine, law, education and even religion are focusing on the bottom line, i.e. "show me the money", so too is the military. We, the people, are the losers.
1
I don't know. Because they are supposed to be better people or something? Because some people lacking integrity does not mean the rest of us have to follow a lower standard? Because criticism is how we keep people honest, especially those who willingly enter the public eye? Because most professions do not have a code that specifically says to not seek recognition? Because peers in similar groups do a good job of sticking to that code? Because failure to stick to the code puts others in mortal danger? Why do you dismiss the criticism of other SEALs who object to such credit seeking? Why do you feel the need to be an apologist for the few SEALs that appropriate the SEAL brand for personal gain at the cost of erroding an institution?
5
Considering the fact that our politicians not only make out very well while in office, but then also after leaving office often make millions in speaking fees, as lobbyists or as consultants, I can't understand why people have an issue with ex-military doing the same. These ex-Navy SEALs (and other soldiers) have sacrificed far more than any politician ever has. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to leverage their experience like anyone else in our society would do with their own life experience. As long as they are not revealing classified material or jeopardizing current operations, more power to them.
3
There was a time when doctors cared about their work and saving lives as opposed to simply being greedy people who seek expensive toys and trophy wives. It should come as no surprise that military people in modern America would fall victim to the same ethos of greed and celebrity status. Look at Petraeus and his girlfriend and his sharing of top-secret information with her to write a book. Nothing that was formerly of value in this country can escape the money and corruption that so thoroughly characterizes our country. Does it really surprise anyone that SEALs would be selling vitamins and anything else they could flog, or seeking to get into politics, where one does little work and reaps great reward. We've taken Osama bin Laden and turned him into a marketing tool for some greedhead's ambition. As Norman Mailer said, "Only a country as crazy as ours could be such a raging success."
2
Hmmm... I wonder what NY Times fanboys are more angry about - the fact that these "quiet professionals" have spoken out or the fact that they're overwhelmingly conservative in their viewpoints?
I mean, how dare they criticize the consistently moronic policies of Obama?
I mean, how dare they criticize the consistently moronic policies of Obama?
4
Geez seriously. Exactly what do you think are the character attributes of people who aspire to be elite assassins?
The American public has a weird idolatry for such types. Hollywood makes elegiac films starring famously liberal actors like George Clooney to show that murderers for hire are really sensitive souls nobly ridding the world of vermin...
Many people join the military as the only affordable route towards upward mobility and a college education. Most of them hope never to see active combat duty.
But the people who choose the SEALS, or Delta Force, are a very particular breed. Not the sort I*d like representing me, or with any sort of power over anyone else*s life. And quite high on my list of Least Admired People.
The American public has a weird idolatry for such types. Hollywood makes elegiac films starring famously liberal actors like George Clooney to show that murderers for hire are really sensitive souls nobly ridding the world of vermin...
Many people join the military as the only affordable route towards upward mobility and a college education. Most of them hope never to see active combat duty.
But the people who choose the SEALS, or Delta Force, are a very particular breed. Not the sort I*d like representing me, or with any sort of power over anyone else*s life. And quite high on my list of Least Admired People.
6
Since the tide has cast, this is bad.
If in the middle of a mission, I had to worry about the guy next to me trying to figure out what he or she's doing to gather book or movie material, instead of focusing on the mission, my trust is down the drain.
Lack of trust influences any team project, and if you've been in the work force long enough, we know this is not a good scenario.
If in the middle of a mission, I had to worry about the guy next to me trying to figure out what he or she's doing to gather book or movie material, instead of focusing on the mission, my trust is down the drain.
Lack of trust influences any team project, and if you've been in the work force long enough, we know this is not a good scenario.
6
If they are "real" ex-SEALs, and not the stolen valor types, I see no harm it it. They served their COUNTRY, now let them cash in on their brave past. Lots of ex-NFL jocks have cashed in on their NFL past - and there is nothing nation-saving in playing a child's game.
2
From all the media hype, I thought these patriots were above 'money, glory fame. Guess not
7
I fear that most of this bad behavior aids and abets our enemies.
I agree with the following from the article, "“The raising of Navy SEALs to celebrity status through media exploitation and publicity stunts has corrupted the culture of the SEAL community by incentivizing narcissistic and profit-oriented behavior,” Lt. Forrest S. Crowell, a SEAL, wrote in the critique, his master’s thesis for the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif. Partisan politicking and public disclosure of tactics, he added, “erodes military effectiveness, damages national security, and undermines healthy civil-military relations.” "
The military played a role in allowing. Now it should play a role in stopping it. There is no reason to show our current enemies how we currently operate. It is arrogant, stupid and shameful.
I agree with the following from the article, "“The raising of Navy SEALs to celebrity status through media exploitation and publicity stunts has corrupted the culture of the SEAL community by incentivizing narcissistic and profit-oriented behavior,” Lt. Forrest S. Crowell, a SEAL, wrote in the critique, his master’s thesis for the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif. Partisan politicking and public disclosure of tactics, he added, “erodes military effectiveness, damages national security, and undermines healthy civil-military relations.” "
The military played a role in allowing. Now it should play a role in stopping it. There is no reason to show our current enemies how we currently operate. It is arrogant, stupid and shameful.
7
If you're a true professional and a patriot, which applies in this case.
For any decent human being, if they're paid for the work, it's not theirs. You can take pride in position but not in the work you do.
If I were to give out some of my work as a part of my private job, I would be sued in court by my ex-employer for not respecting the IP.
For any decent human being, if they're paid for the work, it's not theirs. You can take pride in position but not in the work you do.
If I were to give out some of my work as a part of my private job, I would be sued in court by my ex-employer for not respecting the IP.
3
Truly disappointing to see such patriotic, uniquely experienced men adopt the self-aggrandizing, immature behaviors of our narcissistic media culture --especially when highlighting the comparative virtues of serving as a SEAL. They convey the unintended impression that SEAL experience makes you little or no better than anyone else.
It isn't necessary. Rep. Seth Moulton --who earned the Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal for valor in Iraq-- recently proved this by winning a Congressional seat without grandstanding about his combat heroism nor engaging in petty insults.
It isn't necessary. Rep. Seth Moulton --who earned the Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal for valor in Iraq-- recently proved this by winning a Congressional seat without grandstanding about his combat heroism nor engaging in petty insults.
4
Let's set something straight off the bat. 99.9% of soldiers are NOT heroes, and 99.9% of seals are also NOT heroes. The dilution of this label has become insane. That being said, if these guys had any integrity or honor they would not be peddling their taxpayer paid training program, tarnishing it for the entire group.
16
Strongly agree. The past few years any soldier with an injury has been labeled a "hero", and local newscasters use that moniker for anyone returning from Iraq.
3
I am military brat, still amazed that my dad travels the world at almost 70 years of age helping people my age. It saddens me to see another group of select individuals sell-out or plateau themselves as Demi-Gods. It creates a false reality for what really goes on behind the front lines. I agree with military instilling core values in men and women, yet capitalizing on this platform drives a wedge in what the military actually represents for most; an opportunity. Call of Duty Games, Movies, etc.. dot the commercial landscape and have created the marketplace for these members to sell their story. An interesting dynamic, as a collective there are so many unsung Heros in combat. Many will never be able to tell their story, or are so shell shocked they surpress it. Let's honor all combat men and women in the same light, and call a spade a spade when we see it. The best way to end the gravy train is not support it financially. "Navy Seal Super Pac?" the idea just sounds grimmy. You don't need a flamboyant book, or character on a stage, or a YouTube video to get military stories. Go volunteer at your local VA Medical Center, you will a get real taste of how 99% of real soilders live.
14
Thank you for your astute observation.
3
Excellent point. Will be using it with others. Thanks for your and your dad's service. My wife has done work at the VA and absolutely loved it. She rsspected, understood and appreciated some of the Vets' desire not to want to talk or blabber. Lot of healing and support can occur in silence, with few words and/or few small acts of kindness and understanding that also protects their dignity. Thanks for writing.
Best wishes.
Best wishes.
5
The elite, soldiers for that matter don't want recognition for what they have done but I think they want the dignity they deserve.. Profiting from Sacrifices soldiers have done like the Wounded Warrior Project and more so the elite is just wrong. It's not yours to divulge or to tell, even if you served you can't tell your service experience without telling what your fellow soldiers have done because you didn't do it yourself. It's just not yours to tell. If you profit from it why don't you give some money to your fellow soldiers that help achieve your job.
2
The lure of Hollywood and fast money for your story has been the narcissistic American Dream for too long. The selling of the dramatic special operations story will only entertain the masses for a short period of time. There are millions who served this country in the U.S. Armed Forces who never published a book, made a video or motion picture of their contributions, yet America will never forget them. The pendulum needs to swing from its extremes and find a steady balance again - the public's need to know should be moderated by the Pentagon in the interests of national security, in the same manner as we declassify information.
2
Descendant of a family with five generations of military service, it's amazing to see the hype game instagated by nostalgia. The honor of serving ones country comes in many forms. My great great grandfather set aside personal belief systems and volunteered to fight in the civil war. Being a slave, this was his opportunity to fight for freedom. (Purpose) My grandfather who did his WW2 tour in Italy and many other parts of Europe, became a judge. (Honor) He was the first African American Judge, in his state. My dad who continues to serve did two tours in Vietnam, rescue and salvage, now dedicates his time reprogramming shoulders for civilian life, and helping with PTSD. (Service) All these men had something in common, they rarely spoke about their experiences. Their action perpetuated, the belief systems gained in service and manifested into character traits that benefitted others.
14
Moral character, discipline and patriotism are all very commendable but it is important we clearly identify what are the characteristics, qualities, education and background is essential for leadership in government. There should be numerous imperatives including character.
2
An absolute disgrace. Clearly the. e screening process, which should weed attention seeking narcissists out before day one, has failed miserably.
I'm sure the DoD and Navy have contributed to this by using the SEALs' successes for public relations.
I don't know who America's most elite operators are, because whoever they may be, some things are for certain: they're not writing books or appearing on video. Probably CIA, maybe an agency we don't even know exists.
I'm sure the DoD and Navy have contributed to this by using the SEALs' successes for public relations.
I don't know who America's most elite operators are, because whoever they may be, some things are for certain: they're not writing books or appearing on video. Probably CIA, maybe an agency we don't even know exists.
4
Sad how we loose perspective and pride when we have a chance to make the almighty buck.
4
My respect for the Army's Delta Force has increased enormously. They don't seek the limelight. They just get on with it and they are the epitome of what a special operations unit should be. The piece characterizes them as "reticent" which is a huge compliment.
SEALs both present and former should take note and treat their own service with the respect it warrants.
SEALs both present and former should take note and treat their own service with the respect it warrants.
8
Recently, after spending time on a military installation, although I am not a member of the military, I was able to get a very close view of what is at the core of most service people, which is THE CODE. THE CODE harnesses; loyalty, various morality basics such dignity, honor, service, discipline, allegiance, humility and so on. In summary it gives soldiers a guideline for their behavior both during and after service to our country and to whichever branch they are enlisted with. It was the humility that struck me most while on the military base. I found soldiers both men and woman putting their counterparts first most always. I found their sacrifice toward their fellow solider and all civilians on base to be a refreshing change from the "me me me I" and the "all mine mentality" so many spoiled modern Americans possess. So upon that note with regard to the various books being written by certain SEAL officers, in my opinion, arriving at monetary gain from their noble, serious service as a SEAL, strikes me as opposite of THE CODE these soldiers abide by in all things both on duty and off duty, active or retired. My only hope within these writings is that the author stresses the fact they no one SEAL does it alone, standard is a 12 man(soon to include woman) SEAL team. And therefore, in all reality, most accomplishments are the result of the SEAL team. NO ONE HERO EVER SHOULD EVER DO IT TO BE A HERO, THEY SHOULD DO IT FOR THE LIVES THEY ARE SERVING, NOT FOR THEIR OWN LIFE.
4
You are correct in your observation.
On my trip home from another war long ago, over one hundred of us were crammed in a DC-8. None of us cared who was combat arms, who was in food service or an artillery man. We all were subjected to war and the side effects of war, mentally and physically.
I have been in the presence of those who believe serving in combat arms as a more "noble" skill while failing to think of those who supported them-aviation (of which I was proud to serve in), or any other support element.
Rarely do we see any writings from the living Medal Of Honor recipients and the acts that gained them our highest military award.
In closing, I offer that those who wish to profit from their and their teammates activities, donate a good portion of those proceeds to a worthy charity that truly assists veterans, and their surviving family members.
Regards
Dan, U.S. Army, Retired
On my trip home from another war long ago, over one hundred of us were crammed in a DC-8. None of us cared who was combat arms, who was in food service or an artillery man. We all were subjected to war and the side effects of war, mentally and physically.
I have been in the presence of those who believe serving in combat arms as a more "noble" skill while failing to think of those who supported them-aviation (of which I was proud to serve in), or any other support element.
Rarely do we see any writings from the living Medal Of Honor recipients and the acts that gained them our highest military award.
In closing, I offer that those who wish to profit from their and their teammates activities, donate a good portion of those proceeds to a worthy charity that truly assists veterans, and their surviving family members.
Regards
Dan, U.S. Army, Retired
3
This would not be an issue if we took care of our returning soldiers to any reasonable extent. These men/women are risking their lives to take care of their country's best interests while people on Wall Street and in DC make hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars and have only their own interests in mind. Then they come back to little support and have to figure out ways to survive. Some soldiers are injured for life and the compensation is peanuts.
All they have to sell is their experiences so this makes perfect sense. I will never criticize a returning solider's efforts to make a living. I will just say "thank you for service."
All they have to sell is their experiences so this makes perfect sense. I will never criticize a returning solider's efforts to make a living. I will just say "thank you for service."
2
Just because the guy was in special forces doesn't mean he knows anything about running a state government. The two things have nothing to do with each other. Same logic gave us Trump.
13
I'd say that the both the physical and psychological demands required to complete the training as well as the leadership and team work developed as a Navy SEAL certainly beats that of being a community organizer in preparation for any of life's challenges. Of course one might argue that the addition of some insignificant state and US Senatorial experience along with the community organizing experience more than fully qualified the current President for his position.
1
If I had to make a decision on a dangerous, deadly mission, I would jump at the chance for advice and assistance from a Seal, but if I needed advice on political policy or an economic decision I would go elsewhere.
They are heroic men and deserve recognition in their field.
But just as I would choose a brain surgeon over an obstretrician for neurological advice-I would go to the expert in that field.
Seals have expertise in warfare not in public policy, so unless he has demonstrated abilities elsewhere, a seal has no more ability to be a teacher or politician or banker than anyone else.
There was a reason our founders originally meant to keep a line of demarcation between civil and military. They develop two different mindsets and are rarely the same skill set in new jobs.
They are heroic men and deserve recognition in their field.
But just as I would choose a brain surgeon over an obstretrician for neurological advice-I would go to the expert in that field.
Seals have expertise in warfare not in public policy, so unless he has demonstrated abilities elsewhere, a seal has no more ability to be a teacher or politician or banker than anyone else.
There was a reason our founders originally meant to keep a line of demarcation between civil and military. They develop two different mindsets and are rarely the same skill set in new jobs.
7
This says a great deal about what kinds of people are drawn to of the screening and psychological assessments done as part of the process of recruiting SEALs. We are also seeing the beginning of what is best called a "Warrior Class"; something the U.S. never really had until we eliminated the Draft. I say this as a veteran of Vietnam and this change is not for the better.
6
Not surprising, that's our culture. It's not just money but a desire for 'fame, a narcissistic need to tell 'the real story', and a belief that they and their opinions are relevant on everything beyond their SEAL missions - Kardashians, although the obsession with swat teams and special forces precedes the Kardashians by decades (swat team obsession in the 1980s), not to mention acting out in sports starting with Ali's antics in the 60s.
Yes, SEALS are AN elite, but we hear far less about the green berets these days than the SEALS, for whom there is an overly obsessive fascination (maybe the SEALS need their own ballad) with what I consider to be overexposure of special forces/black ops/swat teams/para-military in movies, tv, fiction. Appreciation? Respect? Sure, with the caveat that some of what they are asked to do is unsavory and questionable.
Yes, SEALS are AN elite, but we hear far less about the green berets these days than the SEALS, for whom there is an overly obsessive fascination (maybe the SEALS need their own ballad) with what I consider to be overexposure of special forces/black ops/swat teams/para-military in movies, tv, fiction. Appreciation? Respect? Sure, with the caveat that some of what they are asked to do is unsavory and questionable.
4
Well, one certainly does not hear much from Delta Force members.
3
"Now Mr. Greitens, seeking the Republican nomination, finds himself in a battle with some former comrades"
Then I stopped reading. This confirmed my thoughts on the type of politician-to be, would base his platform on such an elite military group. I hope he does not prevail.
Then I stopped reading. This confirmed my thoughts on the type of politician-to be, would base his platform on such an elite military group. I hope he does not prevail.
5
As far as I am concerned, all who have served in our armed services and participated in combat have demonstrated that they are as brave and as patriotic as those in the elite forces. Having said that, there is no reason to assume that former soldiers would make better political leaders. The skill set is simply not the same.
6
Suggest new rule: all commercial profits from SEALs duty to be government property for 10 years, with 50% sharing thereafter. After recoupment of US Gov cost of training them.
this could curtail SEALs who act more like mercenaries than soldiers.
this could curtail SEALs who act more like mercenaries than soldiers.
7
I suspect the SEALs going public are no different from other people.
The ones who brag the most are almost always the ones who are the most insecure. Their bragging (and often exaggerating) of their exploits is generally a sign of their own insecurity.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of SEALs live quietly, are respected for the men they are, and don't need other people's fawning to feel good about themselves. It's a shame that character trait isn't more respected. And that the braggarts aren't recognized for what they are.
The ones who brag the most are almost always the ones who are the most insecure. Their bragging (and often exaggerating) of their exploits is generally a sign of their own insecurity.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of SEALs live quietly, are respected for the men they are, and don't need other people's fawning to feel good about themselves. It's a shame that character trait isn't more respected. And that the braggarts aren't recognized for what they are.
4
From my own experience I've learned to doubt those who loudly proclaim their own valor.
6
Something doesn't seem right, for a few individuals to go on paid speaking circuits, do book deals, movies, and celebrity talk shows claiming credit on military operations that were joint efforts involving hundreds of people in planning, logistics, and material support. The SEAL is successful as a team, not as an individual.
3
Thanks for the article. Would O'Neill and Zinke believe the quiet motor pool professionals (or vet who was not a SEAL) who wish to run for Congress would be a very good thing?
1
Well, what can you expect.
Our culture is obsessed with money. In fact, we are so obsessed with money nowadays, we condone any means to an end. Virtues that we took highly and esteemed for having took backseat long time ago. I'm not saying people need to live like yogi pursuing virtues neglecting all worldly value, but after seeing how so many oligarchies and wall st cronies are so rich and what they can do with it, our society has moved to the extremity of the spectrum.
Look at Trump and his popularity! The epitome of the said self-hemorrahing culture.
Our culture is obsessed with money. In fact, we are so obsessed with money nowadays, we condone any means to an end. Virtues that we took highly and esteemed for having took backseat long time ago. I'm not saying people need to live like yogi pursuing virtues neglecting all worldly value, but after seeing how so many oligarchies and wall st cronies are so rich and what they can do with it, our society has moved to the extremity of the spectrum.
Look at Trump and his popularity! The epitome of the said self-hemorrahing culture.
9
What's funny is that all these guys appear to be claiming that they go from one victory to another when the reality is something very different. If they are the supermen as their books purport why can't they stop ISIS (and does anybody think Obama would stop then from doing so if he really thought it was possible).
It's curious that the Vietnam War resulted in books that gave a harsher view of combat such as those by Michael Herr, Tim O'Brien, and Phil Caputo. And even those who wrote about World War II whether it was a journalist like Ernie Pyle who wrote during the war or novelists like Norman Mailer and James Jones who wrote about it afterwards didn't try to turn servicemen into superheroes.
I'm not sure I'd vote for a man who claims that if he's elected governor he'll be as successful in governing as he's been in fighting global terrorism.
It's curious that the Vietnam War resulted in books that gave a harsher view of combat such as those by Michael Herr, Tim O'Brien, and Phil Caputo. And even those who wrote about World War II whether it was a journalist like Ernie Pyle who wrote during the war or novelists like Norman Mailer and James Jones who wrote about it afterwards didn't try to turn servicemen into superheroes.
I'm not sure I'd vote for a man who claims that if he's elected governor he'll be as successful in governing as he's been in fighting global terrorism.
8
The article fails to mention that Mr. Greitens earned a PhD while at Oxford and was a Truman Scholar in addition to receiving the Rhodes Scholarship. He also did humanitarian work in a number of countries prior to joining the military. That such an individual would accept a White House fellowship should be surprising to no one.
The makers of the video attacking Mr. Greitens are at best cowardly and more likely politically motivated. Apparently any video clip treated to add low resolution scan lines is attack ad code for "this person is very bad, see those unsightly resolution lines". The video looks like every annoying attack add we have come to expect in the political arena.
It saddens me that in the era of unbalanced politicians whose rhetoric is dangerously destabilizing that an individual like Eric Greitens is dragged through the mud for a record of service that is rivaled by few others of his generation.
I've read a slew of the SEAL books and virtually all of them cop to the fact that to be a SEAL you have to have a pretty healthy ego to start with and the training and culture reinforces that egotism. Most of this controversy seems to be more about alpha dogs dominance behaviors than anything than anything of substance.
The makers of the video attacking Mr. Greitens are at best cowardly and more likely politically motivated. Apparently any video clip treated to add low resolution scan lines is attack ad code for "this person is very bad, see those unsightly resolution lines". The video looks like every annoying attack add we have come to expect in the political arena.
It saddens me that in the era of unbalanced politicians whose rhetoric is dangerously destabilizing that an individual like Eric Greitens is dragged through the mud for a record of service that is rivaled by few others of his generation.
I've read a slew of the SEAL books and virtually all of them cop to the fact that to be a SEAL you have to have a pretty healthy ego to start with and the training and culture reinforces that egotism. Most of this controversy seems to be more about alpha dogs dominance behaviors than anything than anything of substance.
3
The article isn't about Mr. Greitens qualifications for public office, so mentioning his PhD or that he received a Rhodes Scholarship isn't relevant. It's about former SEALs that exploit their record for gain, which he seems to have done quite well.
5
Since his first and last name are the first words in the article and several paragraphs focus on him let's agree he is a subject of the article. The rest of his experience is meangful because it is not surprising that someone who has read philosophy, pursued advanced degrees and shown passion about the human would write a book or series of books.
Said another way, who doesn't cash in on their experience or expertise? Politicians certainly do. Anyone who puts Harvard, Yale or their resume does. Anyone who discloses they were a SEAL on an application does. This is no different.
Said another way, who doesn't cash in on their experience or expertise? Politicians certainly do. Anyone who puts Harvard, Yale or their resume does. Anyone who discloses they were a SEAL on an application does. This is no different.
3
I had the great good fortune to be taught economics by one of those WW II generation guys. He was a great teacher who used Paul Samuelson's textbook. My professor died in the spring of 2009 and Paul Samuelson died in December of that year. I went to the wake and one of his sons told me his fathers mission in the war was tactical intelligence trying to intercept German communications at the forward edge of the battle area. When he was mustered out he was told not to talk about his mission. This even though the war was over and we won. Germany surrendered unconditionally. But my professor did no talk about what he did for decades.
I think this illustrates the difference between then and now.
I think this illustrates the difference between then and now.
11
Peace Corp Volunteers aren't allowed to use the Peace Corp logo on their blogs and always have to post a disclaimer: “The content of this website is mine alone and does not necessarily reflect the views of the U.S. Government, the Peace Corps, or the [insert host country name] Government.” And when PCV write about their experiences, they are in service of one of the goals of the Peace Corp & further understanding of their host country.
If this branch of the government, can figure out & enforce the guidelines for their volunteers, surely the Armed Forces can do the same for their volunteers.
If this branch of the government, can figure out & enforce the guidelines for their volunteers, surely the Armed Forces can do the same for their volunteers.
11
As usual the brass has created the problem they now view as getting out of hand. Team 6 was originally the counter-terror unit, so by the nature of their missions they were the most visible. They were used and their involvement publicized in the special-ops missions that were likely to become public knowledge, leaving the other units, SEAL, Delta, etc to remain in the shadows. So now some are pushing the envelope a little further, which should surprise no one.
2
The creation of the Green Berets was controversial in the military in the early 60s. The argument against them was that by separating the best fighters into elite units the quality of regular army units decreased. JFK was a big supporter of special forces so the army brass lost this argument. I would think that these warriors should be more discreet about their operations for the simple reason that revealing their techniques to the enemy puts their lives in danger.
5
To have served your country as a Navy Seal is a great thing, but to promote yourself using it as anything more than the fact that you are a veteran does a disservice to the men and women who serve in that particular unit and all the other units of the armed forces. If and when that is ever done, it reveals less character, when would have expected more. Only the bugler in the service should blow his own horn. For the rest it is duty, honor and country first with a ton of respect and humility for those who did not come home or are now disabled.
10
SEAL worship --- and SEAL self-aggrandizement --- is yet another symptom of a culture that marries warfaring to merchandising to produce a new consumer product to sell to the gullible. Sad for everyone, including the special forces.
10
There is a way you can tell your story and maintain the culture, but main of these SEALS are not doing it. A ghostwritten book with an author that refuses to reveal themselves shows us that they care about the story, and not bringing attention to themselves, or brand. However, it is nothing less than the American way to sell yourself, and often, sell your comrades out (by cashing in and breaking the culture of quiet professionalism) when you have a juicy story to tell. Just another example of a capitalistic ethos overriding any other moral and ethical considerations.
While I agree that citizens should very much have access to the details of war, and have a deep understanding of what our soldiers go through, not all of these exploits amount that. Unfortunately, the more stories we get like this, and the more we see SEALS speaking in public, the more the mystique will wear off and the more we will realize that they are all just people, like all the rest of us. For something so revered as the SEALS, I would say this would be incredibly damaging to the 'brand' of these important soldiers.
While I agree that citizens should very much have access to the details of war, and have a deep understanding of what our soldiers go through, not all of these exploits amount that. Unfortunately, the more stories we get like this, and the more we see SEALS speaking in public, the more the mystique will wear off and the more we will realize that they are all just people, like all the rest of us. For something so revered as the SEALS, I would say this would be incredibly damaging to the 'brand' of these important soldiers.
18
Sorry Seals, but military spending props up the economy and is making very powerful people and corporations very rich, so the glamorization of your endeavors, and war generally, will continue. These very wealthy people who profit from war, BTW, see you as nothing but replaceable cannon fodder. You're not risking your lives for the the national interest, you're risking your lives for the corporate interests - those two diverged decades ago.
6
It takes two to tango. It is not merely about SEALs who monetize and, arguably, exploit an image but also about a chickenhawk political leadership and a largely similar society that laps it up.
Role modeling starts at the top, originally articulated by Republican President and former commander of wartime forces in Europe, Dwight Eisenhower, who warned Americans about the advent of the "military-industrial complex." Within the intervening decades, his fear has not only proven warranted but been put on steroids by the addition of Congress and top agency executives to the complex. We now have a revolving door among the military, Congress, and corporate America.
In addition, Congress, which formerly included many, many members who either saw military action personally or had someone in their immediate family who had served, is now mostly composed of those whose knowledge of the military largely consists of taking testimony and junkets.
The SEALs under consideration in this article may (or may not) be worthy of disapprobation. However, in their "defense", while they are no longer serving and taking orders, they are still taking as leadership those in "command."
What clearly is missing across the board from the top down is a sense of honor, a value which appears to be not merely an ignored virtue but a derided one in contemporary society at large.
Role modeling starts at the top, originally articulated by Republican President and former commander of wartime forces in Europe, Dwight Eisenhower, who warned Americans about the advent of the "military-industrial complex." Within the intervening decades, his fear has not only proven warranted but been put on steroids by the addition of Congress and top agency executives to the complex. We now have a revolving door among the military, Congress, and corporate America.
In addition, Congress, which formerly included many, many members who either saw military action personally or had someone in their immediate family who had served, is now mostly composed of those whose knowledge of the military largely consists of taking testimony and junkets.
The SEALs under consideration in this article may (or may not) be worthy of disapprobation. However, in their "defense", while they are no longer serving and taking orders, they are still taking as leadership those in "command."
What clearly is missing across the board from the top down is a sense of honor, a value which appears to be not merely an ignored virtue but a derided one in contemporary society at large.
4
Just email Mr. Babin and Mr. Mr. Willink this message.
Mr Babin, I find it very alarming that you and others former Seal members will ever criticize our President. As a disable veteran who served under Ronald Reagan always respected him as a President, even though I'm a Democrat. I also served under Pappa Bush and and did time in Kuwait in Desert Storm. You individuals are Seal hustlers looking for a large payday. I also find it amusing and comical you and Mr. Willink, who regularly appear on Fox News to voice your unpardonable comments about this President and our military, but had no comment about New York Time article dealing with this growing trend of former Seals member cashing in on their time in service. Your comment put active Seals members in danger by you gentlemen giving up classified information. My only question is why is the Pentagon not asking the Justice Department to prosecute these treasonous acts. Just amazing.
Mr Babin, I find it very alarming that you and others former Seal members will ever criticize our President. As a disable veteran who served under Ronald Reagan always respected him as a President, even though I'm a Democrat. I also served under Pappa Bush and and did time in Kuwait in Desert Storm. You individuals are Seal hustlers looking for a large payday. I also find it amusing and comical you and Mr. Willink, who regularly appear on Fox News to voice your unpardonable comments about this President and our military, but had no comment about New York Time article dealing with this growing trend of former Seals member cashing in on their time in service. Your comment put active Seals members in danger by you gentlemen giving up classified information. My only question is why is the Pentagon not asking the Justice Department to prosecute these treasonous acts. Just amazing.
6
I wonder if being a Seal really translates to success outside the closed system on the Military. Dies success among a already small cohort of citizens translate automatically to success among the much more diverse general populations.
4
They are cheapening the SEAL standard in the American (and world's) psyche, just as the "Right" in this country has cheapened the word, "freedom" and reduced our flag to little more than an overly exploited political commodity over the past two decades.
Oh, but for the days of the strong, SILENT type.
Oh, but for the days of the strong, SILENT type.
7
I'm wondering if I should write a book about my life as a Navy Nurse?
It's ashamed those whom wish to remain solitary receive no recognition for withdrawing their right to brag.
It's ashamed those whom wish to remain solitary receive no recognition for withdrawing their right to brag.
3
It riles me to see conservative media use SEALs to undermine the commander-in-chief, to attempt to delegitimize a sitting President. This, despite their stated loyalty to leadership and service ethos.
But there is a larger point: the cloak of anonymity. Anyone who puts on a service uniform loses autonomy, but in return they are not held personally accountable for actions that would ordinarily be crimes. So long as they stay within certain boundaries (war crimes), they are not scrutinized back home on a personal level as murderers because they submitted to serving their country: they are not individuals so much as actors of the State. Upon returning home, this is a solace, but it also informs the humility of their valor - it cuts both ways. So to return home bragging so publicly of individual exploits is to break the bargain: they take off the inform and claim individual, personal honor. In equal measure, stripped of the protection of the uniform, they should also be held personally accountable for the stories they would rather leave behind; the accidents, the moral failures, and the death of innocents.
But there is a larger point: the cloak of anonymity. Anyone who puts on a service uniform loses autonomy, but in return they are not held personally accountable for actions that would ordinarily be crimes. So long as they stay within certain boundaries (war crimes), they are not scrutinized back home on a personal level as murderers because they submitted to serving their country: they are not individuals so much as actors of the State. Upon returning home, this is a solace, but it also informs the humility of their valor - it cuts both ways. So to return home bragging so publicly of individual exploits is to break the bargain: they take off the inform and claim individual, personal honor. In equal measure, stripped of the protection of the uniform, they should also be held personally accountable for the stories they would rather leave behind; the accidents, the moral failures, and the death of innocents.
5
Naturally......it involves money for the secrets revealers. Remember a while back there were six Navy Seals who revealed navy classified documents while publishing a book? They received a slap on the wrist, but not much more.........I spent more than 20 years in the military and I was never able to understand such "honor among thieves" then or now. Military hanging for treason should be brought back,for that is what classified revelations are - treason. No exceptions. No excuses. Ever.
5
I am wondering if there could be unintended consequences from making heroic acts that were part of a clandestine operation public. Could this result in SEALS or their families becoming targets of terrorists? Could other missions be compromised?
Heroism is being treated like a commodity in many instances. I can understand the person who performed a heroic act being rewarded, but it also smacks of exploitation.
Heroism is being treated like a commodity in many instances. I can understand the person who performed a heroic act being rewarded, but it also smacks of exploitation.
3
“How can the symbol of an apolitical military unit be used in such a partisan way without any protest from society or the military?”
Much like an apolitical bureaucracy like the IRS can be used in such a "partisan way" I suppose.
And by the way, retired military personnel have EVERY RIGHT to go on Fox News, CNN, or anywhere else to voice their political opinions.
I understand that the command doesn't want them to divulge secrets, and they shouldn't. But this idea that they should retire and then quietly go on to pumping gas or working at Walmart is absurd at best, insulting at worst.
Much like an apolitical bureaucracy like the IRS can be used in such a "partisan way" I suppose.
And by the way, retired military personnel have EVERY RIGHT to go on Fox News, CNN, or anywhere else to voice their political opinions.
I understand that the command doesn't want them to divulge secrets, and they shouldn't. But this idea that they should retire and then quietly go on to pumping gas or working at Walmart is absurd at best, insulting at worst.
1
So your assumption is that all former Seals can do, if they don't appear as political hacks on Faux News, is pump gas or work at Walmart? Now THAT'S absurd at best and insulting at worst.
3
It's been true since the dawn of human history that there are two types of warriors: those who boast of being warriors, and those who really are warriors. And they are not often the same person.
5
Honor and loyalty have given way to money and corruption.Success is measured by fortune and driven by greed. Competence gave way to corruption, connections, and competition without limits.
It all has happened slowly over the last 50 years, picking up steam in the last 25 and climaxing in the last 15. From our presidential candidates on down there is barely an honest candidate in the race save poor Bernie Sanders who is about to be steamrollered by the corrupt Party machine. Even West Point is modelled by Petraeus. So our Navy is down to the Seals in ships, if I may, simple assassins driven by the Presidents who, in their turn follow the orders of the CIA.
The American image has been lost in dollar bills and lip service to those without them.
It all has happened slowly over the last 50 years, picking up steam in the last 25 and climaxing in the last 15. From our presidential candidates on down there is barely an honest candidate in the race save poor Bernie Sanders who is about to be steamrollered by the corrupt Party machine. Even West Point is modelled by Petraeus. So our Navy is down to the Seals in ships, if I may, simple assassins driven by the Presidents who, in their turn follow the orders of the CIA.
The American image has been lost in dollar bills and lip service to those without them.
Can the right-wingers of Missouri simply vote to put their state in the hands of the Navy Seal Command for four years? It would cut out the middleman.
1
I can imagine a whole new batch of young applicants wanting to become SEALs just because of some skewed notion of "heroism" that they picked up from a movie, tv, or a book. I have no doubt about the bravery of these soldiers, and I admire their skills and all. But I would prefer that with their training, and desire to do good things for our country, that they come with genuine humility and a desire to stay far away from the public limelight.
5
Special operators do whatever it takes, bearing in mind that the brass doesn't want to hear about it, ever.
They are sailors, not soldiers.
3
Ego-trips of some in military will not change the fact of all the expensive and defeated foreign policies the U.S. government has started. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc. While the U.S. military may brag about the destruction of Iraq and Libya the many ramifications of the expensive and defeated foreign policies are yet to come. When will those who gave America the defeated foreign policies be held accountable? Some say never as all three branches U.S. government dominated and run by lawyers known as the U.S. legal caste and they are above all laws.
2
Some of these warriors are profiteering because, sadly, SF members across all branches don't get paid jack for the danger they encounter, just in training! Compare their wages to even the lowest paid pro athletes. I think the media should do a story about how little they make for the work they do serving our country, especially given the wear and tear they experience physically, mentally and emotionally. They truly get used like tools.
2
It's a 'volunteer' force. Ideally, the young folk seeking to earn their way on to one of these elite teams are motivated by motives more noble than "the pay".. or fame. Ideally.
2
As do other service personnel in combat. SEALS get hazardous duty pay for certain special ops, as do other personnel, but all military members know the monetary and benefits drill when they sign up. The talk should be about increasing military pay among the ranks across the board, not merely for SEALS.
3
Sad and disgusting and all part of of the war as a growth industry mindset where there's money to be made.
The Commander in Chief should put an end to this nonsense immediately. No one should make money by being a SEAL.
The Commander in Chief should put an end to this nonsense immediately. No one should make money by being a SEAL.
3
I wish some bureaucrat would make the same decision about whatever it is you do for a living (if anything to begin with).
When any commander in chief leaves office and he then writes a books, gets paid for speeches, and otherwise "makes money off of" being the president. Until THAT stops, your argument is hollow.
When any commander in chief leaves office and he then writes a books, gets paid for speeches, and otherwise "makes money off of" being the president. Until THAT stops, your argument is hollow.
1
The assertion that there is historical precedent for American soldiers "cashing in" on the honor of their service is a huge distortion of what is now occurring. It is shameful that the behavior of contemporary profit motivated veterans is being justified in this manner. Shameful.
In my opinion, what is happening today in the United States with our military is unprecedented. The measure of "heroism" has everything to do with the core motivation of the heroic acts. The self-aggrandizing has nothing to do with anything most of us think of as heroism.
As a child, I carefully listened to veterans talk about their experiences of war. I heard stories from WWI, WWII, Korea... The men were my uncles and neighbors. I was a curious kid. I wanted to know what happened. What I remember was the quiet tones and some tears. What I remember was having my Dad tell me to stop asking questions about things that people did not want to talk about, let alone brag about.
I have since been to some of the funerals of the men who quietly told me stories. There service was noted, respectfully and appropriately. Sometimes with music, sometimes with honor guards, and always with the flag they served beneath.
The self-aggrandizing of current soldiers dishonors the selfless service of these men. Calling attention to yourself and bragging about military service is not an American tradition where I am from.
In my opinion, what is happening today in the United States with our military is unprecedented. The measure of "heroism" has everything to do with the core motivation of the heroic acts. The self-aggrandizing has nothing to do with anything most of us think of as heroism.
As a child, I carefully listened to veterans talk about their experiences of war. I heard stories from WWI, WWII, Korea... The men were my uncles and neighbors. I was a curious kid. I wanted to know what happened. What I remember was the quiet tones and some tears. What I remember was having my Dad tell me to stop asking questions about things that people did not want to talk about, let alone brag about.
I have since been to some of the funerals of the men who quietly told me stories. There service was noted, respectfully and appropriately. Sometimes with music, sometimes with honor guards, and always with the flag they served beneath.
The self-aggrandizing of current soldiers dishonors the selfless service of these men. Calling attention to yourself and bragging about military service is not an American tradition where I am from.
7
I don't remember the Navy Seals ever criticizing a sitting President before President Obama. Or, making money from their positions as Navy Seals even after they left the service. Americans have this wonderful idea of the Navy Seals and what they can do. American's were proud of the Navy Seals. However, once they are seen on such a regular basis and appear to be rather petty, we have come to realize that they are just average men, nothing more. They do not look special in photos, even in uniforms. In fact in America and in the world, I believe this pride we once had, has started to tarnish.
7
Here's what I know.
The SEALS are the genuine article who EARNED their title through some of the hardest work in the universe.
Those that criticize their being human and wanting to show off a little are generally arm chair Generals who dont have a secret mission to keep secret.
It would appear that the quiet understanding of what a SEAL should not be has been a culture that is only now being scrutinized towards regulation, though in a free country, you might believe that those who most logically gave and protected our freedom, would have the freedom to do and say as they please within the bounds of the necessary secrecy acts.
The SEALS are the genuine article who EARNED their title through some of the hardest work in the universe.
Those that criticize their being human and wanting to show off a little are generally arm chair Generals who dont have a secret mission to keep secret.
It would appear that the quiet understanding of what a SEAL should not be has been a culture that is only now being scrutinized towards regulation, though in a free country, you might believe that those who most logically gave and protected our freedom, would have the freedom to do and say as they please within the bounds of the necessary secrecy acts.
Reading comprehension, reading comprehension, reading comprehension. The story here is about active and veteran SEALs themselves questioning these actions on the part of others. The split is within the ranks. Do you extend your "arm chair general" label to these critics? Or have they EARNED the right, through serving in an elite institution that as you rightly note does dangerous and difficult work, to have an informed debate about how fellow SEAL vets represent themselves and the institution?
3
US needs to rethink its approach to warfare from the ground up.
It's a money-first endeavor that does not get the desired results on the battlefield. The last time the US won a war = 1945.
The increase of elite forces-within-forces is part of the rot. What war have these units won? How much do they cost ... including life-cycle expenses in lives and currency both here and in countries where they operate?
As is clear, what matters is what happens to elites after their terms of employment = funneling money to themselves. Elites 'serve' as PR for the military-for-profit enterprise.
Bring back the citizen soldier, the engagement of the public in policy making and policies that have the strategic aim of defending the country rather than fighting overseas for dollars.
It's a money-first endeavor that does not get the desired results on the battlefield. The last time the US won a war = 1945.
The increase of elite forces-within-forces is part of the rot. What war have these units won? How much do they cost ... including life-cycle expenses in lives and currency both here and in countries where they operate?
As is clear, what matters is what happens to elites after their terms of employment = funneling money to themselves. Elites 'serve' as PR for the military-for-profit enterprise.
Bring back the citizen soldier, the engagement of the public in policy making and policies that have the strategic aim of defending the country rather than fighting overseas for dollars.
7
The rationale for war is to create enemies so as to create FEAR in the American tax paying public. Did I say "tax paying"? Ah, yes I did......
1
Not sure I understand the furor. Thomas Magnum was an ex-SEAL, Ron Ely was "The Seal," both early eighties. There've been several films built around Delta Force characters. Americans love their superheroes. We also love commercial success. It is inevitable some of these guys decide to cash in.
1
Loose lips sink ships.
When I joined the Navy I voluntarily gave up some of my rights .I agreed to certain rules and regulations for the good of all. Discretion is the better part of valor. Not to mention divulging mission protocol could put future operators at a higher risk level.
When I left active duty I was “readout” of my security clearance and swore an oath not to reveal any classified info that I had knowledge of.
Non sibi sed patriae.
When I joined the Navy I voluntarily gave up some of my rights .I agreed to certain rules and regulations for the good of all. Discretion is the better part of valor. Not to mention divulging mission protocol could put future operators at a higher risk level.
When I left active duty I was “readout” of my security clearance and swore an oath not to reveal any classified info that I had knowledge of.
Non sibi sed patriae.
7
Anyone that tries to capialize on their time in service is no hero and is the type to self-proclaim how brave and tough they are. SEALS need anonymity to conduct their missions successfully.
9
Why would anyone believe that being a seal qualifies you for public office. Seals have to be disciplined and uncompromising in their fight against an opponents. Good politicians need to compromise with opponents.
7
It is simply the Kardashianization of America.
16
This article has reinforced my belief in the importance of America's commitment to the civilian control of the military. Eisenhower's parting speech makes so much sense now...
13
This discussion predates the SEALS... CIA has long wrestled with former employees who sought to profit from the notoriety of what they previously did for a living. And exactly how does this differ from Bill Clinton earning $50,000 a speech.? As long as any former government employee (of any ilk) remains within the bounds of legality (non-disclosure, etc.), any effort to discourage them impinges on their freedom of speech. And with that said, I'm not condoning their actions. Their honor and ethics are certainly questionable; but not inherently "wrong".
1
Fact of the matter is that the SEALs are employees of the US military and thereby the US Government. Consequently any money made from exploits and missions by individuals while being paid through their employment with a "company" belongs to the company. Even when they leave that employment, those acts still belong to the company.
Perhaps the US Government should sue to get the royalties paid to these people transferred over to the government treasury.
I'm no lawyer and I suppose I could be way off base legally but I think it would be an interesting case.
Perhaps the US Government should sue to get the royalties paid to these people transferred over to the government treasury.
I'm no lawyer and I suppose I could be way off base legally but I think it would be an interesting case.
5
Way off base. What these men are paid is peanuts for putting themselves and family on the line.
How is it the politicians can collect millions as a result of serving the public? When Hillary gives back her millions come talk to us.
How is it the politicians can collect millions as a result of serving the public? When Hillary gives back her millions come talk to us.
1
They are fighting to protect capitalism and democracy, correct?
Why shouldn't they be allowed to benefit from their heroic and life threatening work like everybody else.
The answer is, there is no reason why, especially among retired seals.
Making money and doing your job with honor do not have to be mutually exclusive pursuits.
Why shouldn't they be allowed to benefit from their heroic and life threatening work like everybody else.
The answer is, there is no reason why, especially among retired seals.
Making money and doing your job with honor do not have to be mutually exclusive pursuits.
"They are fighting to protect capitalism and democracy, correct?"
Depends on your definition of capitalism and democracy.
From where I stand, they simply serve a rotting US Government
Depends on your definition of capitalism and democracy.
From where I stand, they simply serve a rotting US Government
1
Maybe part of the problem is a culture in which the most respected newspaper in the land uses "brand" as a metaphor?
There is no SEAL brand to cash in on. These men are betraying their brethren to make "easy" money.
Let me suggest the old standard of holding these men up to a high standard of intellectual ability as well as the high standard of physical endurance has been let slip in favor of the physical and that is why men like this have managed to get through the program.
Smarter men would be able to earn a good living without betraying their brethren.
Those of you who find the stories entertaining and see nothing wrong with it are being foolishly narrow minded and childish about the issue. Nothing good can come of this.
BTW haven't you folks finally connected video games with violence? If the GOP's constant harping on the evils of abortion can be credited with inspiring the bombings and murders it did and was intended to in the fringe element, why is it you can't see that Video Games which have much more intense and longer term exposure to a wide segment of isolated likely fringe populace do the same thing?
There is no SEAL brand to cash in on. These men are betraying their brethren to make "easy" money.
Let me suggest the old standard of holding these men up to a high standard of intellectual ability as well as the high standard of physical endurance has been let slip in favor of the physical and that is why men like this have managed to get through the program.
Smarter men would be able to earn a good living without betraying their brethren.
Those of you who find the stories entertaining and see nothing wrong with it are being foolishly narrow minded and childish about the issue. Nothing good can come of this.
BTW haven't you folks finally connected video games with violence? If the GOP's constant harping on the evils of abortion can be credited with inspiring the bombings and murders it did and was intended to in the fringe element, why is it you can't see that Video Games which have much more intense and longer term exposure to a wide segment of isolated likely fringe populace do the same thing?
4
Nothing says "I'm not a hero" like someone saying "I am such an awesome hero"; compounding the classlessness of that approach is the subtext of most everyone of these memoirs: the commanders and leaders whose decisions allowed me to be a great hero are devoid of honor, intelligence or patriotism. The actions of a few proud men can be quickly undone by the Gollum-like obsession with fame of a few narcissistic men. I will never respect a seal looking to cash in on his self-proclaimed heroism and who seems to have forgotten that discretion is the better part of valor.
4
To quote one of my parental units:
"If you have to tell me who you are, You Aren't."
"If you have to tell me who you are, You Aren't."
13
Obviously honor is no longer enough of a boundary, they will have to make a regulation with real consequences that the role cannot be exploited for monetary gain.
3
If you are a true warrior, part of your Way is to be humble. Beyond that, you're just a self-centered braggart of an opportunist.
Admittedly, self-centered braggart opportunists seems to be the flavor of the decade, if not the norm for politics (a step away from reality TV), yet when someone like Greitens can be put in his place, shut down, and told to shut up with his exaggerations and lies, it should be done.
Think about it.
And if you live in Missouri, think hard, real hard.
Admittedly, self-centered braggart opportunists seems to be the flavor of the decade, if not the norm for politics (a step away from reality TV), yet when someone like Greitens can be put in his place, shut down, and told to shut up with his exaggerations and lies, it should be done.
Think about it.
And if you live in Missouri, think hard, real hard.
5
Hypocrisy. Bill and Hillary Clinton have done more to cash in on their government "service" than anybody in US history. Wonder how much of their take went to helping veterans? The American public doesn't know 1% of what these guys have done to secure our freedoms so leave them alone.
1
The American military is envied for its professionalism. Take that away, and what is left? -- cheap publicity and boastful arrogance. Nothing to be proud of.
6
Hey, what about ex presidents and CICs commercializing their service to the U.S.?
Don't forget, the "Last Survivor" mission recounted by Marcus Luttrell went bad because the team didn't kill two young goatherds whom they stumbled upon. These youths then reported the presence of the SEALs to the local Taliban chief, who mustered hundreds of fighters to catch them.
Special ops is not a clean business.
Special ops is not a clean business.
1
It's one thing to make a dollar, another to become a partisan hack. Want to be a millionaire, just say what the billionaire wrote down for you. SEALS for sale, cheap.
9
I think it only natural that movies and books follow the careers of SEALs. Have met a few in my lifetime and heard accounts of many more. These guys are not lacking in self-confidence or modesty. These are cowboys that generally want others to know that their bravery and skill-sets are well beyond your own. Books and movies allow these men the forum to share those facts with the greatest # of people. And let's face it, they obviously sell. Now, if only we could have some way to evaluate the validity of such books and movies. Let me conclude that I have met some SEALs that are genuine heroes, and modest to boot. But you won't ever know who they are, because they haven't written any books.
3
I have read some of these writings penned by current and former Seals and have found them tedious in their first person narrative which demeans the team effort, and their constant criticism of the civilian leadership of the military, meaning the Commander-in-Chief.
The best writings concerning first person experience in battle are those where the author seeks to convey to the reader the sights, smells and sounds of the battle without resorting to self-aggrandizement. Yes, authors of those writings where they do not place themselves in the center of attention do profit from those book sales, however, they are still humble, and do not view themselves as heroes.
U.S. Army, Retired
The best writings concerning first person experience in battle are those where the author seeks to convey to the reader the sights, smells and sounds of the battle without resorting to self-aggrandizement. Yes, authors of those writings where they do not place themselves in the center of attention do profit from those book sales, however, they are still humble, and do not view themselves as heroes.
U.S. Army, Retired
5
A true hero of war is one who did not go into harm's way as part of an intentional plan to aggregate attention, acclimation, glory and praise unto himself. Hubris is not bravery.
This is one of the undesirable consequences of the irrational choice 40 years ago to eliminate conscription and make the military services 100% volunteer. What is the phrase about reaping what is sown?
Read, or re-read, the shelves of books that emerged from Vietnam. Compare them to the self-puffery being offered today.
I repeat, hubris is not bravery.
This is one of the undesirable consequences of the irrational choice 40 years ago to eliminate conscription and make the military services 100% volunteer. What is the phrase about reaping what is sown?
Read, or re-read, the shelves of books that emerged from Vietnam. Compare them to the self-puffery being offered today.
I repeat, hubris is not bravery.
9
Only the higher ups in the Military are allowed to cash in like Petraeus. Remember you regular enlisted men are just supposed to die or fade away into the incompetence of the VA. According to the evil war criminal Henry Kissinger “Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.”
Welcome to today's United States, where profit trumps all. How dare anyone criticize these men for engaging in entrepreneurial capitalism.
2
It is the Navy that has elevated SEAL to celebrity status. There are those who are more shark than SEAL and will always take advantage.
Perhaps the bigger question is what kind of person would charge a fee to brag about killing another human being, despicable though the murdered person was? Oh, and that person was not in a combat role and in fact, sleeping,
Necessary? Yes. Easy? No. Doing one's duty? Yes. Brag about it? You have to wonder. Charge money for it? Awful.
Time for the Navy to get back to basics before they produce more run-amok sailors.
Perhaps the bigger question is what kind of person would charge a fee to brag about killing another human being, despicable though the murdered person was? Oh, and that person was not in a combat role and in fact, sleeping,
Necessary? Yes. Easy? No. Doing one's duty? Yes. Brag about it? You have to wonder. Charge money for it? Awful.
Time for the Navy to get back to basics before they produce more run-amok sailors.
2
There is nothing surprising about this. For decades, the right wing of our political spectrum has been glamorizing the military as an elite "warrior class", with the public being expected to essentially worship at their feet. While at the same time, the actual real-life military has been increasingly turned into a purely mercenary army, more and more of whose members are only in it for the money. When these two trends run head on into each other, this is exactly what you get. The ultimate "cashing in". With Fox not surprisingly leading the way.
6
Everyone of these guys have been turned into GOP talking point hero sticks, the celebrity created by Fox and friends has propelled them into high society
4
My father was in the Army and saw combat in Germany and France in World War II. Never did he talk about it. After his death, I did some research and read that Dad's unit was under attack for weeks and received a commendation for heroism under fire. This is something he never spoke about, let alone bragged about. He was and is a true hero in my eyes. Many others of the Greatest Generation were the same. They did what had to be done without covering themselves in glory.
6
Some of the videos and documentaries seem like exposing the nation's private parts to strangers. I think they should remain as mysterious as possible. Definitely shouldn't be any "secrets of the SEALS" type videos. At the same time they should get their stories out and set themselves up to enjoy the dream they fight for. The policy makers who send these men to battle seem to have allegiances elsewhere. It is only a matter of time before a major betrayal takes place.
1
It's wrong for a SEAL to make money off the brand and reputation. Period. Same as a Green Beret or Ranger or whomever. They should be satisfied with serving their country.
3
When things were not going well at home with the economy, terrorism, and politics, it was handy to allow the exploitation of the impressive feats of our special forces, but this leads to placing an undesirable emphasis on a warrior culture. Special forces should be the quiet professionals that many of them apparently want to be.
1
I think if there is story to be told ....TELL IT! Its good to know that these guy's are for real. Our Govt has lied to us about almost everything. Unemployment figures, illegal deportations and many other things are all FABRICATIONS to blatantly fool the people! Where is our integrity? Its gone!
Americans are and always been infatuated with the military. Witness Eisenhower or less deserving egomaniacs like MacArthur or Clark. This is not going to change given cultural attitudes and the media playing up every example. There's some ex CIA man on TV currently peddling his book. If these individuals want to change the SEALS or CIA into a branch of the entertainment industry it doesn't reflect well upon them and ultimately is damaging to the institution but there is little that can be done about it. However, like everything to do with the entertainment industry they are to be treated with deep skepticism.
4
By publicizing their work SEALs inspire young people to join them!
Unfortunately, this behavior draws the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
3
The SEALS and NAVY command have been brewing this stew for some decades now. It's all of their own doing.
In the 80s, I was engaged in Cold Weather Operations training that had a mix of Army, Marines, Air Force (para-rescue), and Navy SEALs all training for ultra-cold (-30 below) combat patrol operations. During the class room phase, the SEALS were obnoxiously full-of-themselves. Constantly interrupting things just to assert themselves as being some sort of "action heroes" that didn't necessarily need to be briefed on how to succeed in these conditions--they already knew and paid little attention to "rules".
It was gratifying to me the next week in the field, when they showed themselves as some of the biggest "whiners" and "no-gos" out in waist-deep snow, high winds, hard travel, and super cold temps. The instructors (Army) were constantly barking at them about their crying and in-adherence to policy.
None of those "heroes" came close to any recognition at the end of that brutal training. They just sat in the back silently knowing they had over-stepped. An Air Force airman (para-rescue) won the Honor Graduate award. Ha, go figure!
The NAVY has needed to reel these rogues back in for some time now.
In the 80s, I was engaged in Cold Weather Operations training that had a mix of Army, Marines, Air Force (para-rescue), and Navy SEALs all training for ultra-cold (-30 below) combat patrol operations. During the class room phase, the SEALS were obnoxiously full-of-themselves. Constantly interrupting things just to assert themselves as being some sort of "action heroes" that didn't necessarily need to be briefed on how to succeed in these conditions--they already knew and paid little attention to "rules".
It was gratifying to me the next week in the field, when they showed themselves as some of the biggest "whiners" and "no-gos" out in waist-deep snow, high winds, hard travel, and super cold temps. The instructors (Army) were constantly barking at them about their crying and in-adherence to policy.
None of those "heroes" came close to any recognition at the end of that brutal training. They just sat in the back silently knowing they had over-stepped. An Air Force airman (para-rescue) won the Honor Graduate award. Ha, go figure!
The NAVY has needed to reel these rogues back in for some time now.
9
When you make a military unit a commodity, what do you think is going to happen? I think copyrighting the insignia (if it is not already) would help. Elite units shouldn't need publicity, because those in the military already know about them.
So the whole endeavor was about pride in the unit instead of need. Pride cometh before a fall.
So the whole endeavor was about pride in the unit instead of need. Pride cometh before a fall.
6
Those who say they should profit, cash in on their experiences probably haven't served. Secondly, having been a SEAL makes no one especially suited for anything other than being a SEAL. It is an exceptional community and I would not have been able to make it through BUDS (it used to be much more difficult) in my day, but that doesn't mean those who do make it are any more qualified for say, politics, or business, than anyone else.
There is supposed to be satisfaction in serving and doing a difficult job well for their own sake, not in an eventual cash payout. I am mortified by this rush to exploit the service and the community.
Master Chief Petty Officer
USN, retired
There is supposed to be satisfaction in serving and doing a difficult job well for their own sake, not in an eventual cash payout. I am mortified by this rush to exploit the service and the community.
Master Chief Petty Officer
USN, retired
68
Thanks for your service, Master Chief. I couldn't pass basic.
Please relate how getting through BUD/S is easier now than it was before.
Please relate how getting through BUD/S is easier now than it was before.
I was surprised to not see Chris Kyle amount the books and articles listed. American Sniper was completely about Seals.
The behavior is unprofessional in the context of the Seal training, but that's my personal view. As long as the published material is screened for tactics and classified info, folks get to tell about themselves. It's called freedom of speech.
Best,
Vince
The behavior is unprofessional in the context of the Seal training, but that's my personal view. As long as the published material is screened for tactics and classified info, folks get to tell about themselves. It's called freedom of speech.
Best,
Vince
I make a distinction between being proud to have been part of a team that finally put bin Laden out of commission versus bragging about or at least seeking credit for the actual killing of a human being. This may be part of the culture, but I find it unsettling.
9
I was asked to join the SEALS in boot camp in 1971. It was presented to me as a force that did its job quietly and well. I was the only recruit asked in a company of 80 men and that was emphasized so I'd feel the exclusivity of joining.
I turned them down because I was unwilling to commit to two more years of service. At the time I had a good civilian job and wished to return to it after my four years were up. I'd been drafted and four years in the Navy appealed to me more than two years in the Army. Had I extended my enlistment I would have lost that job. Instead I went into the SEABEES the first to leave Orlando out of 146 companies of recruits. It too did its job quietly and well.
A pity now that the battalions are being decimated and we hire foreign nationals to work on our bases overseas.
I turned them down because I was unwilling to commit to two more years of service. At the time I had a good civilian job and wished to return to it after my four years were up. I'd been drafted and four years in the Navy appealed to me more than two years in the Army. Had I extended my enlistment I would have lost that job. Instead I went into the SEABEES the first to leave Orlando out of 146 companies of recruits. It too did its job quietly and well.
A pity now that the battalions are being decimated and we hire foreign nationals to work on our bases overseas.
4
"The film sent 'a confusing message' to SEALs, who questioned why the command 'could take advantage of the public interest and adulation but individual SEALs could not,' Lieutenant Crowell wrote in his paper."
Any SEAL members who asserted that the film sent a "confusing message" are being disingenuous. The film was made in response to the SEAL command who sought the film for the purpose of building SEAL teams (to better protect the U.S.) without any benefit going to individual SEAL command members. Individual SEAL members, however, are promoting their roles as SEAL team members for personal gain.
Any SEAL members who asserted that the film sent a "confusing message" are being disingenuous. The film was made in response to the SEAL command who sought the film for the purpose of building SEAL teams (to better protect the U.S.) without any benefit going to individual SEAL command members. Individual SEAL members, however, are promoting their roles as SEAL team members for personal gain.
2
The unfortunate reality is that Seal self commercialization is the result of the recruitment of a lesser breed of Seals. Their work represents the ultimate sacrifice to their country by offering their lives. Yet, modern media, with its dysfunctional and aberrant focus on cosmetic beauty and short term gratification has even permeated and corrupted the quiet professionalism that was once a hallmark of the professional military.
2
Well, another of my fantasy-bubbles has been burst, as are fantasy-bubbles prone to. David Boreanaz's portrayal of F.B.I. special agent Seely Joseph Booth, "the man who does not shine a light on himself", was a comforting fantasy but obviously has little resemblance to actuality.
Bursting Fantasy-Bubbles is probably a healthy activity, but I despise the 21st century's propensity for doing it.
"Money is honey ... Money is honey."
(Quote #1 belongs to Dr. Temperance Brennen on "Bones". #2's source I can't remember for the life of me. )
Bursting Fantasy-Bubbles is probably a healthy activity, but I despise the 21st century's propensity for doing it.
"Money is honey ... Money is honey."
(Quote #1 belongs to Dr. Temperance Brennen on "Bones". #2's source I can't remember for the life of me. )
The most impressive thing about these guys is their huge egos and their low regard of what their former brotherhood thinks. And what does targeting high school students for recruitment say about the level of intelligence they will achieve at the end of that program? Apparently their training forgot to include honor, integrity and loyalty in their curriculum. At least their Army and Air Force counterparts seem to have found and bonded to a higher ethos to live by. And BTW isn't O'Neill now the second seal claiming he was the one who shot Bin Laden? We'll probably get a few more pretenders who shot Bin Laden before it's over.
6
why the hell not?.
Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, Judges, Generals, SecDefs, everyone and their mother is writer books, why not the SEALS.
I remember when writers wrote books, but nowadays plenty who accomplished very little than the SEALS is writing a book. What is good for the goose is good for the SEALS.
Presidents, Senators, Congressmen, Judges, Generals, SecDefs, everyone and their mother is writer books, why not the SEALS.
I remember when writers wrote books, but nowadays plenty who accomplished very little than the SEALS is writing a book. What is good for the goose is good for the SEALS.
2
It's troubling to read Republican, Republican, Republican in this article, leading this reader to assume that the SEALS are politicized. There have been frequent observations that certain branches of the military are also highly politicized -- I seem to remember comment about the Air Force Academy in this regard. This is troubling. Church and State used to be separated, and military leaders were not supposed to dabble in politics. Eisenhower only declared a political affiliation after his military career was over, for example.
10
Well Annabella, have you ever heard of Bob Kerry (former long time senator from Nebraska and former presidential candidate) and Jesse Ventura (former 2 term governor of Minnesota)? Each was a former Seal, each played up their military experience on the campaign trail and each were (shocking) not republicans. Ventura is a staunch libertarian and Kerry is an extremely liberal democrat, so much so that after leaving the senate he was made president of the New School in NYC, hardly a bastion of conservatives.
Kerry is an "extremely liberal democrat" like a gnat is an elephant? Are you "extremely in the tank"?
2
There is nothing wrong if these real life heroes are making public their exploits. When an author can make money by writing books on fictitious James Bond,then why find fault with these real life heroes. The root cause of the problem is - "I am more competent than you" - that is office politics. It is in human nature,to feel that my shirt is more white than you,and it is coming out in the public. SEALS were not known globally,before they killed the terrorist - Osama Bin Laden,and wide publicity was given to this event. Then why blame SEALS - let them speak. Who knows in future,they may be barred from speaking in the public,even after retirement.
The idea that the United States has a "secret military elite" at all is blood-chilling to me. That they engage in activities that may violate US law and possibly violate international law as well is doubly disturbing. That they are lauded for this secret and lawless behavior is beyond comprehension. The more the general public learns about the military elite and their activities, the better-off the ordinary US citizen will be.
4
This discussion predates the SEALS... CIA has long wrestled with former employees who sought to profit from the notoriety of what they previously did for a living. And exactly how does this differ from Bill Clinton earning $50,000 a speech.? As long as any former government employee (of any ilk) remains within the bounds of legality (non-disclosure, etc.), any effort to discourage them impinges on their freedom of speech. And with that said, I'm not condoning their actions. Their honor and ethics are certainly questionable; but not inherently "wrong".
1
@Charley
VaBch
Clinton was, is, a public man not a member of a secret agency. There is a difference.
VaBch
Clinton was, is, a public man not a member of a secret agency. There is a difference.
3
How much secrecy do secret agencies deserve in a democracy? There's the difference.
1
I've read the article, and read and listened to the documentation to which it referred. And in the past I've spoken with another former Seal, and currently speak from time to time with another currently serving Navy Seal, who is close to serving for a decade and a half.
They both did/do honor to our country, their platoon brothers, and the Seals as a whole. They are humble, self-effacing and respectful, and not in it for fame, notoriety and money. They just do/did their job and don't provide bravado and details about their exploits for their own gain, which could compromise their security and compromise our national security. They are, exactly what they are supposed to be. Whenever I see them, I thank them for their service to our country. They appreciated that and didn't expect anything more.
From reading, listening to our media and attending academic seminars, is my layman's conclusion that all of our special forces are sorely undermanned, due to their increased usage for today's asymmetric terrorist warfare.
And, it is solely my conclusion, that the others in the article who have sought publicity and money via video, movies and books, do a disservice to our national security and country. And finally, Greitens is merely another, self-aggrandizing political opportunist, out to make a quick buck and name for himself, to become just another political hack. We already have enough of them in in DC and throughout the US.
They both did/do honor to our country, their platoon brothers, and the Seals as a whole. They are humble, self-effacing and respectful, and not in it for fame, notoriety and money. They just do/did their job and don't provide bravado and details about their exploits for their own gain, which could compromise their security and compromise our national security. They are, exactly what they are supposed to be. Whenever I see them, I thank them for their service to our country. They appreciated that and didn't expect anything more.
From reading, listening to our media and attending academic seminars, is my layman's conclusion that all of our special forces are sorely undermanned, due to their increased usage for today's asymmetric terrorist warfare.
And, it is solely my conclusion, that the others in the article who have sought publicity and money via video, movies and books, do a disservice to our national security and country. And finally, Greitens is merely another, self-aggrandizing political opportunist, out to make a quick buck and name for himself, to become just another political hack. We already have enough of them in in DC and throughout the US.
6
As far as I'm concerned, if the government is using the exploits and fame of the SEAL's for their own profit with movies like Act of Valor, and if it is sending them to risk death in the first place, why on earth shouldn't individual SEALs profit as well? The argument for them to keep silent seems to rest on antiquated ideas of "nobility" or "honor", but it isn't as if the SEALs aren't still risking their lives for their country.
Years ago, after the 9/11 attacks, my state hired a Homeland Security Liaison. He was a former Navy SEAL. As far as I can tell, his job consisted of trying to look menacing in a blue blazer and aviator glasses. The state bought him a membership at the gym I go to, and a black SUV to drive there. He spent a lot of time doing 1960s-style Karate moves in the warmup room. Once, while attempting a spinning back kick, he fell on his backside. Ouch. I hope no terrorists saw that.
3
Perhaps if we didn't popularly conceive of the Navy SEALs as superheroes, as we have done for decades, there would be no market to eagerly devour self-aggrandizing stories of their exploits. However, understanding who SEALs are as a nation comes from listening to their stories as they tell them. Learning how our elite forces operate, both professionally and personally, is both interesting and important. And the narrative put forward by our government is not typically the most honest one. Speaking generally, just because the government tells you never to do it doesn't mean that's the only correct choice to be made.
Does history as a SEAL qualify for you governance, or even earn you celebrity status? That's doubtful.
Does history as a SEAL qualify for you governance, or even earn you celebrity status? That's doubtful.
4
It takes two to tango. It is not merely about SEALs who monetize and exploit an image but also about a chickenhawk political leadership and a largely similar society who lap it up.
Role modeling starts at the top, originally articulated by Republican President and former commander of wartime forces in Europe, Dwight Eisenhower, who warned Americans about the advent of the "military-industrial complex." Within the intervening decades, his fear has not only proven warranted but been put on steroids by the addition of Congress and top agency executives to the complex. We now have a revolving door among the military, Congress, and corporate America.
In addition, Congress, which formerly included many, many members who either saw military action personally or had someone in their immediate family who had served, is now mostly composed of those whose knowledge of the military largely consists of taking testimony and junkets.
The SEALs under consideration in this article may (or may not) be worthy of disapprobation. However, in their "defense", while they are no longer serving and taking orders, they are still taking as leadership those in "command."
What clearly is missing across the board from the top down is a sense of honor, a value which appears to be not merely an ignored virtue but a derided one in contemporary society at large.
Role modeling starts at the top, originally articulated by Republican President and former commander of wartime forces in Europe, Dwight Eisenhower, who warned Americans about the advent of the "military-industrial complex." Within the intervening decades, his fear has not only proven warranted but been put on steroids by the addition of Congress and top agency executives to the complex. We now have a revolving door among the military, Congress, and corporate America.
In addition, Congress, which formerly included many, many members who either saw military action personally or had someone in their immediate family who had served, is now mostly composed of those whose knowledge of the military largely consists of taking testimony and junkets.
The SEALs under consideration in this article may (or may not) be worthy of disapprobation. However, in their "defense", while they are no longer serving and taking orders, they are still taking as leadership those in "command."
What clearly is missing across the board from the top down is a sense of honor, a value which appears to be not merely an ignored virtue but a derided one in contemporary society at large.
9
"However, in their "defense", while they are no longer serving and taking orders, they are still taking as leadership those in "command.""
Quite a defense. They have not mutinied. Yet.
The percent of americans who have no clue to what the US military is and does is frightening. No clue. The NYT even had a stray opinion piece or two on that sea of ignorance. Yet, many of the clueless know everything about it when it comes tomjudgments.
Quite a defense. They have not mutinied. Yet.
The percent of americans who have no clue to what the US military is and does is frightening. No clue. The NYT even had a stray opinion piece or two on that sea of ignorance. Yet, many of the clueless know everything about it when it comes tomjudgments.
The now multi-generational degradation of ex-veterans and their appalling situations could be said to excuse any option for all ex-military people to cash in on their work. There are also quite a few official SEAL products available, like documentaries, etc. Audie Murphy could do it, they can't? Good luck to them.
As to the mission to kill Osama Bin Laden:
The US Army 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) got the SEALS there and provided them with cover, yet did not become the Glory seekers the Department of the Navy's Marines and Navy SEAL units seem to thrive on.
Read of them here: http://www.soc.mil/USASOAC/160th.html
There are plenty of brave and highly professional members the Special Operations community in all branches of service, yet the Navy seems to relish PR. The USAF and Army do not seem to have this problem.
The US Army 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) got the SEALS there and provided them with cover, yet did not become the Glory seekers the Department of the Navy's Marines and Navy SEAL units seem to thrive on.
Read of them here: http://www.soc.mil/USASOAC/160th.html
There are plenty of brave and highly professional members the Special Operations community in all branches of service, yet the Navy seems to relish PR. The USAF and Army do not seem to have this problem.
9
I've seen similar critiques throughout the comments. The difference between the two is that the Army doesn't technically acknowledge the existence of the Delta Force other than vague references to the unit number.
1
“The raising of Navy SEALs to celebrity status through media exploitation and publicity stunts has corrupted the culture of the SEAL community by incentivizing narcissistic and profit-oriented behavior.”
This sounds like what the leading Republican Party candidate is doing to his (enabling) party and like what he wants to do to the country.
This sounds like what the leading Republican Party candidate is doing to his (enabling) party and like what he wants to do to the country.
5
If you'd like to avoid having to judge whether buying a book is supporting breaking the code of quiet professionalism, I suggest reading the book Fearless, about special operator Adam Brown. It was written about him after his death. Best book I have ever read about SEALs. Best book I have ever read period. It's broader than just a military book. He overcame addiction, lost an eye in training and taught himself how to shoot even better using the other eye, had an amazing relationship with a strong wife, and underwent a remarkable faith odyssey.
All published books have an element of self-interest on the part of somebody. But I think the author has a legitimate motive of introducing Brown's story to a broader audience.
All published books have an element of self-interest on the part of somebody. But I think the author has a legitimate motive of introducing Brown's story to a broader audience.
1
Yeah, it's not only about politics, it's also about fitness programs and fitness gear with the SEAL label on them, which have no affiliation with the military.
I've known one Ranger, one Delta Force member, and a SEAL during my life. All three were smart, humble, hardworking men. I hope that tradition continues rather than the attention-seeking behavior we see now from all quarters of society.
I've known one Ranger, one Delta Force member, and a SEAL during my life. All three were smart, humble, hardworking men. I hope that tradition continues rather than the attention-seeking behavior we see now from all quarters of society.
7
I personally enjoy reading these accounts by SEALs more than i enjoy reading people complaining about those accounts to the New York Times. Not to mention the irony of people using a comments section on the internet to mourn the loss of people being "quiet". Welcome to the 21st century.
1
Civil service- military service included- should not never lead to profit.
2
Not never or not ever?
Difficult because on one hand you want the elite special operations units to maintain their mystique and remain cloaked in the mystery of a shadow operator. After all, that is what made Hollywood so interested to make films depicting special forces in action, and perhaps a peek into their private worlds.
On the other hand, these guys risk so much and get relatively little in return. They don't even get to take credit for most of their professional activities. Who could blame them for wanting to exploit their time in special forces and pander to a world that fawns over them because of all the glory that Hollywood has showered them with. With economic times being what they are, they have all the reason and incentive anyone could need.
I suppose such exploitation is a violation and betrayal of a code that special forces live by, or at least what we are to believe they live by.
I wish it wasn't necessary, but I'm sure that when it comes to making a decision to capitalize in such ways on your special forces career the thought of betrayal at least crosses their minds.
I don't know what the answer is. I personally, don't know what I would do, but I would definitely be tempted by the money and opportunity.
On the other hand, these guys risk so much and get relatively little in return. They don't even get to take credit for most of their professional activities. Who could blame them for wanting to exploit their time in special forces and pander to a world that fawns over them because of all the glory that Hollywood has showered them with. With economic times being what they are, they have all the reason and incentive anyone could need.
I suppose such exploitation is a violation and betrayal of a code that special forces live by, or at least what we are to believe they live by.
I wish it wasn't necessary, but I'm sure that when it comes to making a decision to capitalize in such ways on your special forces career the thought of betrayal at least crosses their minds.
I don't know what the answer is. I personally, don't know what I would do, but I would definitely be tempted by the money and opportunity.
Since I do not honor those who shoot unarmed old men in nightgowns, nor conceive that honor has anything to do with what they do, as far as I am concerned they can take it outside and settle it in their own way until only one remains.
1
Put a lid on it, SEALS, and take a lesson from your more discreet brethren in Army special ops. You perform a great service, but part of that service is a commitment to not talking about it, no matter what temptations publishers and media might throw your way.
14
One has only to view the "Situation Room" photo {05/02/2011) taken by White House photographer, Pete Souza, for completion of this list.
I blame the Kardashians. Or the people who watch & support them. Or both.
It's a weird 'new day' we're living in. Everyone has to 'be a brand.' It's strange.
It's a weird 'new day' we're living in. Everyone has to 'be a brand.' It's strange.
5
The culture and leadership comes from the top. Senior officers in all branches of the military go from active duty to working for defense contractors. Elected officials and senior government administrators and officials, both elected and appointed, move from government positions to lobbying firms for large compensation. One of the current Democratic nominees and her husband have received very large speaking fees over the past decade amounting to over a hundred million dollars. These preceding actions have set the tone and atmosphere that it's "OK", to exploit your government service for personal gain.
With these kinds of examples being set and this type of culture being created how can we expect lower ranking men and women of our military to forgo the financial opportunities presented to them when the examples set by their "superiors" are so poor.
With these kinds of examples being set and this type of culture being created how can we expect lower ranking men and women of our military to forgo the financial opportunities presented to them when the examples set by their "superiors" are so poor.
1
The culture and leadership comes from the top. Senior officers in all branches of the military go from active duty to working for defense contractors. Elected officials and senior government administrators and officials, both elected and appointed, move from government positions to lobbying firms for large compensation. One of the current Democratic nominees and her husband have received very large speaking fees over the past decade amounting to over a hundred million dollars.
These preceding actions have set the tone and atmosphere that it's "OK", to exploit your government service for personal gain.
With these kinds of examples being set and this type of culture being created how can we expect lower ranking men and women of our military to forgo the financial opportunities presented to them when the examples set by their "superiors" are so poor.
These preceding actions have set the tone and atmosphere that it's "OK", to exploit your government service for personal gain.
With these kinds of examples being set and this type of culture being created how can we expect lower ranking men and women of our military to forgo the financial opportunities presented to them when the examples set by their "superiors" are so poor.
10
While I would not attempt to define honor here, a combination of the article and comments impels me to bemoan the fact that honor appears to be not merely an ignored virtue but a derided one in contemporary society.
5
I have read 'Resilience' and 'The Heart and the Fist' by Eric Greitens and did not feel either book had evidence of bragging or exploitation. Eric did a fine job of using what he learned in the SEALs and relating it to civilian life. 'Resilience' especially has helped me through some difficult times and I recommend it often.
I suppose the Times is picking on Eric because he is running for governor of Missouri, but there are plenty of other examples to illustrate the author's argument. How about Chris Kyle's brazen account of his SEAL experience?
I suppose the Times is picking on Eric because he is running for governor of Missouri, but there are plenty of other examples to illustrate the author's argument. How about Chris Kyle's brazen account of his SEAL experience?
2
Uh...excuse me...why are he SEALs a "brand?" I realize they are no longer the super-secret covert ops group they used to be. But when, how and why did they become a "brand?" Personally, I think the whole thing is stupid.
6
Delta are the true operators and know how to carry out missions. The seals only got the UBL raid because the commander of Socom was a navy guy. Real men join the Army.
1
I served during Viet Nam and did my duty like most people did at that time. A favorite relative of mine, also a vet, was always quiet and very unassuming. I really liked him. When he died some years ago I learned he served in Germany during most of Hitler's reign. He was with the OSS. He never mentioned it, never alluded to the horrors he must have seen. He worked alone, with no team, no one to talk to or share his experiences. He learned to keep his mouth shut. Many lives counted on that. Who says it's OK to spill your guts for money, at the risk of endangering other US servicemen and women? What you may say may give someone useful information to hurt others.
12
Killing as a tool is wrong
and comments call for silence.
When our minds accept control
this conversation won't repeat.
and comments call for silence.
When our minds accept control
this conversation won't repeat.
1
It seems perfectly consistent with what our society and culture have become. We prize money and fame above all else and it is therefore no surprise that one of the leading contenders for president is a man renowned for his reality T.V. show and vast wealth but who displays a glaring weakness on gravitas and temperament. That the military has evolved into a mercenary military that values money and fame amplifies this corrupted value system.
Not to be too partisan here, but I believe this deterioration of traditional military values began to decline under Ronald Reagan and the rise of the privatized military for profit. Can't get funding and congressional approval for a covert military mission to funnel arms to Iran's ayatollahs in exchange for pursuing the Reagan administration's stated policy to overthrow Nicaragua's government? No problem, just dispatch a lower-ranking lieutenant colonel to do private fundraisers for the cause.
It is time to end America's 40-year dependency on the voluntary for-profit military. During the last decade fewer than one percent of Americans participated in either the Afghanistan or Iraq war. This not only contributes to the erosion of our current military (suicides among military members have crossed new thresholds), it also erodes the fragile balance of society between our civilian population and the military upon which it depends. We also can no longer afford it.
Not to be too partisan here, but I believe this deterioration of traditional military values began to decline under Ronald Reagan and the rise of the privatized military for profit. Can't get funding and congressional approval for a covert military mission to funnel arms to Iran's ayatollahs in exchange for pursuing the Reagan administration's stated policy to overthrow Nicaragua's government? No problem, just dispatch a lower-ranking lieutenant colonel to do private fundraisers for the cause.
It is time to end America's 40-year dependency on the voluntary for-profit military. During the last decade fewer than one percent of Americans participated in either the Afghanistan or Iraq war. This not only contributes to the erosion of our current military (suicides among military members have crossed new thresholds), it also erodes the fragile balance of society between our civilian population and the military upon which it depends. We also can no longer afford it.
10
th draft is unlikely to come back
too much potential for social unrest, as w th vietnam incident
th rich will always be able to get out of service anyway
slime-bags like bush and cheney are proof of that
too much potential for social unrest, as w th vietnam incident
th rich will always be able to get out of service anyway
slime-bags like bush and cheney are proof of that
2
I've lived 80 years but I've never understood what is heroic about killing people. Call me a misguided old fool but to me heroism has to do with persistence in trying to do the right thing in the face of powerful resistance; like a single mom bringing up kids or a guy like Edward Snowden. or John Kariakou who served 30 months for telling a reporter we tortured prisoners while David Petraeus got a wrist slap for giving his mistress top secrets, codes, names of agents.
18
I feel it's important to understand the underlying tensions here. For one - the military exists to protect the national interests. This infers a degree of ethics. Also present is the Constitutional Paradigm within the officer corp: Constitution, Mission, Service, Ship, Shipmate, Self - in that order. This hierarchy is taught as the ethical guide to Naval officers. And I believe it is the "self" - presented as the last priority - which is the central ethical cause of the rift spoken about in this article. And because this is an ethical code - it is assumed to carry on into civilian life. An assumption to be sure. Ultimately it is up to the individual to choose - and for others to judge. There is no answer on this one.
4
After reading many of the comments I am pretty torn between feeling Ex-Seals like Robert O'Neill are breaking the code of silence for their own financial gain, and those that point out how military generals and officers trade in their rank and influence to work for arms makers who make millions selling often over-priced weapons to our military (that the taxpayers of course are paying for.) Maybe the line should be drawn with active-duty Seals being compelled to remain silent until discharge, and even then there should be some limits to their cashing in on their service. Maybe they also need to get paid more while serving. What bothers me the most is the revolving door for politicians who become lobbyists and/or open up law firms that cash in on their local and Washington connections. The corruption that flows from there is part of what Bernie Sanders is yelling about.
4
It's the Times we live in. Money Rules! No moral compass, and no real honor! And where did this all start? Might seem corny, but just go back to the beginning of that show, Lifestyles of The and Rich and Famous! Punctuated and Reinforced, when Mr. Cruise said in that seminal role, SHOW ME THE MONEY.
4
Some are delivering the transparency we were promised by a politician in 2008. Question is: can we handle the truth of what we do abroad?
1
Military generals exploit their service all of the time. In fact, the revolving door allows them to run to defense contractors to make hundreds of thousands of dollars per year working on "procurement" for their industry and the Pentagon. One that I am personally aware of created a company to sell new guns to the Pentagon. I can buy one as a civilian (a semi-auto version) for about $6,000, while the DOD pays quadruple that amount for the same system, except it's full auto. It's all part of the gig.
Therefore, I have no qualms about Rob O'Neil trying to make a few bucks from his military service. It's the American way.
Therefore, I have no qualms about Rob O'Neil trying to make a few bucks from his military service. It's the American way.
2
Media has fueled this and we, the public, are quite willing participants.
5
God forbid the men who actually have had skin in the game be permitted to profit from the trauma they have been put through. More than most, they have earned the right to speak freely, to offer their opinions of our so called leadership, and to make a living doing so. There is nothing dishonorable about honestly sharing the experience of war and the lessons it teaches. Perhaps their voices will help to balance out the tone deaf rhetoric we hear from both sides of the political aisle.
11
"God forbid the men who actually have had skin in the game be permitted to profit from the trauma they have been put through."
Uh, I believe they volunteered for this? And they received excellent compensation and benefits from the military? And we, the taxpayers, paid for all that expensive recruitment, training and specialized equipment they used?
Kind of takes the sheen off all that patriotic talk, when it's really all about cashing in, doesn't it?
Uh, I believe they volunteered for this? And they received excellent compensation and benefits from the military? And we, the taxpayers, paid for all that expensive recruitment, training and specialized equipment they used?
Kind of takes the sheen off all that patriotic talk, when it's really all about cashing in, doesn't it?
3
Sensationalizing their experiences and trivializing the Special Forces by selling trinkets is dishonorable to the unit and to the people who serve or have served in it. Openly criticizing the chain of command for political reasons is destructive & degrading to the integrity of the armed forces & to the people who serve in it. (Restrained, objective criticism is okay though.)
2
"excellent compensation"? there is nothing excellent about the compensation for senior enlisted men or junior officers. it's the military, not wall street.
1
I served 8 years in the Navy Submarine Service. We were taught from the first day of Submarine School to keep our mouths shut. I understand that the SEAL's are heros, but the publicity machine is getting way out of hand
90
The SEALS are not heroes; they are trained killers in the service of their country who are admired just like their international counterparts are admired by their compatriots. It's an old saw: A SEAL by any other name would smell as Mossad.
6
Anyone that can spend 6 months underwater has my respect!
To do a job you've signed for does not make you a "hero", with all respect.
Many years ago, while I was practicing law in San Diego, I was retained by a professional police officers' association to represent two ex-seals, who were then San Diego policemen. They had beaten to death with their flashlights a drunk they followed out of a bar in Santee. They sued a local newspaper editor that had called them "murderers" for defamation of character. During a deposition at a break, one of them told me "don't worry, if we don't win, I know where I can get his legs broken for $300." They ultimately won a jury trial and got $1.00 in damages. Over all, in my experience, they are a disgusting group or thugs, notwithstanding some of the occasional acts of true heroism they perform.
11
As ex-SEALs did they complete their service in good standing?
I remember going through airborne school in 1993 with a group of Seals and they did not seem like this Robert O'Neill that wants to run around the entire Nation telling everybody how he and 50 other US Seals crossed into Pakistan illegally and broke into a resident and murder Osama by shooting him in the face 3 time and next all the Seals that enter the room shot into the body such is also a crime.
Just because we hated Obama means that we should have handle him with even more care that everything was done legal! However we got ISIS running around killing everyone in a never ending Middle East war.
O'Neill wants the fame and he knows that the killing of Osama was the 1930 town square hanging of the black male accused of raping the white woman, and the crowning moment of this Administration, so these Seals are getting away with emails, IRS stuff because the due process of the law is what its always been in the nation.
O'Neil not brought up the failure of the Federal Government to modify all his fellow brothers in arms and veterans that in 2009-2010 applied for President Obama modification program but none of the 50,000 that applied ever received the underwriting and instead 50,000 Dept of VA borrowers illegally foreclosed and like Osama the Federal Government sent armed soldier in the form of county Sheriffs to physically evict all 50,000 military families.
However America moved on and is acting as if the housing crisis is over, like Agent Orange or Gulf Syndrome!
Just because we hated Obama means that we should have handle him with even more care that everything was done legal! However we got ISIS running around killing everyone in a never ending Middle East war.
O'Neill wants the fame and he knows that the killing of Osama was the 1930 town square hanging of the black male accused of raping the white woman, and the crowning moment of this Administration, so these Seals are getting away with emails, IRS stuff because the due process of the law is what its always been in the nation.
O'Neil not brought up the failure of the Federal Government to modify all his fellow brothers in arms and veterans that in 2009-2010 applied for President Obama modification program but none of the 50,000 that applied ever received the underwriting and instead 50,000 Dept of VA borrowers illegally foreclosed and like Osama the Federal Government sent armed soldier in the form of county Sheriffs to physically evict all 50,000 military families.
However America moved on and is acting as if the housing crisis is over, like Agent Orange or Gulf Syndrome!
This is hardly new. The SEALs have had this rep for a much longer time than that.
It really began with the first (of many) books and appearances by the 'founder' of Seal Team Six, Richard Marcinko. Rogue Warrior in 1992 was the true beginning of the SEALs foray into the entertainment business.
Don't get me wrong, I have read lots of the books, watched the documentaries and movies, etc. If they want to tell the story, I want to hear it.
But I've heard from Marine Recon guys, Rangers, and of Green Berets & Delta Force guys for over 25 years that SEALs love the limelight and love the attention. Probably not fair to all the SEALs who keep to the "Quiet Warrior" code, but that's the reputation.
I have nothing much to judge on personally, but this is hardly a recent development.
Anyway, my thanks and respect to all who do those tough and ugly jobs that keep us safe.
It really began with the first (of many) books and appearances by the 'founder' of Seal Team Six, Richard Marcinko. Rogue Warrior in 1992 was the true beginning of the SEALs foray into the entertainment business.
Don't get me wrong, I have read lots of the books, watched the documentaries and movies, etc. If they want to tell the story, I want to hear it.
But I've heard from Marine Recon guys, Rangers, and of Green Berets & Delta Force guys for over 25 years that SEALs love the limelight and love the attention. Probably not fair to all the SEALs who keep to the "Quiet Warrior" code, but that's the reputation.
I have nothing much to judge on personally, but this is hardly a recent development.
Anyway, my thanks and respect to all who do those tough and ugly jobs that keep us safe.
3
I dated a Navy Seal in the 80's. Never would he talk about what he did. It was just off limits. I recently was at my brothers house and his neighbor came over dressed quasi commando and everyone there commented that he was a former seal. The guy was eating it up. I kept my mouth shut as I knew the closest this guy ever got to a seal team was with a big gulp, deluxe popcorn and an imax screen. It does no good to glorify the Seals because if they are captured while on ops they will be considered a high value prisoner and one the enemy will exploit. That was the only thing my Seal ever told me about his work and the one thing these cashing in don't take into consideration.
5
How do you spell mercenary?
2
SEALS are different. But they're also human beings who are susceptible to the same temptations and trappings as anyone. That doesn't go away upon becoming a SEAL.
I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for special operators, including SEALS. But I'm leery when they run for public office declaring that their incredible skill with deadly weapons conflates to incredible skill in getting Congressional legislation passed. Being a SEAL doesn't mean you'll be a good politician. The two are very different, and the skill sets don't automatically transfer over.
In the SEAL teams, operators are surrounded by fellow operators who are held to the same high standards, who have passed an extremely rigid indoctrination process, and who have chosen to be there for reasons other than money or power. This is completely unlike politics.
Even if these operators don't personally like some of their teammates, they know their fellow operators will get the job done or die trying. Again, the complete opposite of politics. In politics, you're surrounded by people with oftentimes dubious character, intellect, and motives who have, in achieving elected office, publicly admitted that their ethics are for sale to the highest bidder.
Every politician who gets elected thinks they're going to change the system. Without fail, though, it's the system that changes them - SEAL or not.
Why do former SEALS speak out about their service? For money, fame, glory. In other words, because they're human.
I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for special operators, including SEALS. But I'm leery when they run for public office declaring that their incredible skill with deadly weapons conflates to incredible skill in getting Congressional legislation passed. Being a SEAL doesn't mean you'll be a good politician. The two are very different, and the skill sets don't automatically transfer over.
In the SEAL teams, operators are surrounded by fellow operators who are held to the same high standards, who have passed an extremely rigid indoctrination process, and who have chosen to be there for reasons other than money or power. This is completely unlike politics.
Even if these operators don't personally like some of their teammates, they know their fellow operators will get the job done or die trying. Again, the complete opposite of politics. In politics, you're surrounded by people with oftentimes dubious character, intellect, and motives who have, in achieving elected office, publicly admitted that their ethics are for sale to the highest bidder.
Every politician who gets elected thinks they're going to change the system. Without fail, though, it's the system that changes them - SEAL or not.
Why do former SEALS speak out about their service? For money, fame, glory. In other words, because they're human.
5
Rendering military service to the nation is as noble as teaching or medical service. Trying to make fame or money out of such a noble profession is highly shameful.
It is the dream of every soldier to get selected as a Navy SEAL. But not every one is successful, as SEAL training is said to be the toughest military training. A Navy SEAL is unique, elite and prestigious person. I am unable to digest the fact that former SEALs are using their position and fame to make money out of it. It will only send a wrong signal to youngsters. So far, SEAL Units have had a positive effect on kids and youngsters, in that only those who are highly disciplined, dedicated and strong, both physically and mentally, could enter into SEAL team. SEAL dream has transformed the lives of many young people. My appeal to these former SEALs is, let not the image of Navy SEALs be dented to meet your selfish needs.
It is the dream of every soldier to get selected as a Navy SEAL. But not every one is successful, as SEAL training is said to be the toughest military training. A Navy SEAL is unique, elite and prestigious person. I am unable to digest the fact that former SEALs are using their position and fame to make money out of it. It will only send a wrong signal to youngsters. So far, SEAL Units have had a positive effect on kids and youngsters, in that only those who are highly disciplined, dedicated and strong, both physically and mentally, could enter into SEAL team. SEAL dream has transformed the lives of many young people. My appeal to these former SEALs is, let not the image of Navy SEALs be dented to meet your selfish needs.
Not that they had much in the way of honor to begin with, but, on the subject of "incentivizing narcissistic and profit-oriented behavior", is the NYT by any chance planning a similar series on former senators and congressmen who cash in become K Street lobbyists?
4
I am not at all bothered about the rift among Navy Seals but scared to death about the mini Nuclear bomb that can be carried in their backpacks which can kill people en masse as shown in the documentary on Navy Seals in Netflix.
SEALs capitalizing on their brand. Why not include Richard Marcinko? I loved his Rouge Warrior Series. And his non-fiction is excellent. He was someone who had all rights to write books based on his experience after the government threw him under the bus.
Here is the no honor code summed up:
"He was someone who had all rights to write books based on his experience after the government threw him under the bus."
Even boot camp teaches the "government" can throw you under the bus at any moment and may and if in combat long enough, almost guaranteed. That. Is. Part. Of. The. Job.
At Waterloo troops rotated in formation to take turns taking the cannon fire. An officer has a sidearm to take care of troops who don't want to rotate. To use two famous examples; today's army soldiers can give many current examples of bus run overs without blabbing or betraying. Even marines can. The SEALs, and their fans, in a different business. Me me me me. And, never ever ever forget, me.
"He was someone who had all rights to write books based on his experience after the government threw him under the bus."
Even boot camp teaches the "government" can throw you under the bus at any moment and may and if in combat long enough, almost guaranteed. That. Is. Part. Of. The. Job.
At Waterloo troops rotated in formation to take turns taking the cannon fire. An officer has a sidearm to take care of troops who don't want to rotate. To use two famous examples; today's army soldiers can give many current examples of bus run overs without blabbing or betraying. Even marines can. The SEALs, and their fans, in a different business. Me me me me. And, never ever ever forget, me.
3
As someone who plans to enlist in the Navy and join the SEAL teams after college, I can say that while this article hasn't hindered my desire to join the teams, it is maybe a little upsetting to see that the "silent professional" culture that I've idolized (and still idolize) could be a thing of the past in the future.
I'm currently in contact with an active duty enlisted SEAL and it seems as if most team guys do keep a silent code of honor in and out of service, but the few that capitalize on their experiences in the teams seem to gain a lot of media coverage and attention which always inflates the issue quite a bit.
I have wanted to join the teams for over a year now and that desire if anything, only grows stronger. That being said, almost no one knows what my intentions are. I simply tell most people that I'm joining the Navy after college and the conversation typically doesn't go any further. None of my friends and even most members of my family do not know and probably won't until I ship for basic training what I want to do. Put simply, I want to join the teams to be a part of the unique, tight-knit, brotherhood that the SEALS are. I am completely uninterested in recognition or "fame" for what i want to do.
While I have nothing but respect for these guys because they earned their titles as SEAL's, I think they could use the skills that they learned in training and in the teams in other ways to get ahead and thrive once they leave the service.
I'm currently in contact with an active duty enlisted SEAL and it seems as if most team guys do keep a silent code of honor in and out of service, but the few that capitalize on their experiences in the teams seem to gain a lot of media coverage and attention which always inflates the issue quite a bit.
I have wanted to join the teams for over a year now and that desire if anything, only grows stronger. That being said, almost no one knows what my intentions are. I simply tell most people that I'm joining the Navy after college and the conversation typically doesn't go any further. None of my friends and even most members of my family do not know and probably won't until I ship for basic training what I want to do. Put simply, I want to join the teams to be a part of the unique, tight-knit, brotherhood that the SEALS are. I am completely uninterested in recognition or "fame" for what i want to do.
While I have nothing but respect for these guys because they earned their titles as SEAL's, I think they could use the skills that they learned in training and in the teams in other ways to get ahead and thrive once they leave the service.
3
What are sailors doing fighting incountry with marines and the army. The special training sailors get should be given to marines. They were formed to fight on land.
1
Who cares? Are we really going to act like the wars are some noble and honorable endeavor? The elites benefit the most off them, the guys who are actually where the metal meets the meat might as well get something. Which is really nothing compared to what Cheney and Obamas oil and defense industry buddies make. I'm a combat vet myself and I have used my experimece to advance my career. More power to them.
OIF 2 04-05
2-2 Infantry, 1st ID
OIF 2 04-05
2-2 Infantry, 1st ID
2
Re comment: "I didn't know what they military was about when I was younger, but I would have joined for sure for four years in order to get the tuition benefits. And having worked and seen what kinds of preference veterans get for jobs, it's not a bad deal when you get out if you're smart enough to take advantage of it."
And some are even "fortunate" enough to get a permanent place in Arlington! Ever think of that benefit?
And some are even "fortunate" enough to get a permanent place in Arlington! Ever think of that benefit?
3
The terrorists must be getting a good laugh about this. Shameless conduct.
4
The Seals who have sought this publicity have tarnished the brand because there are conflicting stories and an obvious effort to cash in, whether by writing unauthorized books or by making it the center of their personal political campaigns. The previous anonymity burnished their collective reputation.
3
It is very sad to see what capitalism is doing to corrupt all aspects of honor in our society. Maybe I'm wrong, but the majority of these insults to American values are from the right -- right wing politicians, corporations out to bilk the US, NRA advocates, and, just to give a counter-example to prove a point, and transgender SEAL.
Our society needs heros, not capitalist advertising mavens
Our society needs heros, not capitalist advertising mavens
5
I feel the navy will regret all this public bravado around the SEALs when all their new BUDS recruits are piling in hoping to be the next to get their piece of fame and fortune. When they start making special ops look like the next NFL, this will only bring in a new crowd of enlistees who are setting themselves and the military up for a big disappointment.
4
I have interviewed three ex special forces for post-service employment and none of them were even willing to talk about what they did. This bragging culture comes form 24 hour media culture and the idea its OK to "monetize" everything. It is certainty not consistently followed, fortunately for all of us. This is very bad for security if special ops starts becoming a revolving door stint. My father served and would find this repulsive; glad he doesnt have to witness it.
14
My father was in the Navy special forces as an enlisted man and then later as an officer in the 1960s during Vietnam. He didn't particularly want to return to special forces, preferring to command ships, but he was pulled back into special forces when they had some problems in the training unit. In retirement he attended local get-togethers of Navy special forces in the 1980's, early 1990's. He stopped going. He told them that they were beginning to believe their own PR.
2
There doesn't seem to be an outcry about senior government officials and senior military cashing in on the private sector. When the lower ranks cash in, there is a question of dignity.. Dignity is overrated when your broke and hungry..
3
Each Navy Seal probably costs a million plus dollars a year to train and keep active, or kill-ready. Their noble service, just the same, is not more special for its professionalism. Frankly, the take-out bullet or knife or sheer muscle of a specific soldier doesn't add value to the hit target. The complete cooperation of his fellow soldiers and the authority granted them by office matters. In the early Seal books, individual stories told of Seals who, after added missions, gained more humility, while others simply became wild and cocky, displaying their worst frat-boy disdain for any post-op self-containment. The entitlement is offensive, and the self-aggrandizement dangerous to the brotherhood. Everyday-people become heroes everyday without pretending to gain from their acts of courage, least of all special insight into all life and death matters and better political instincts. People live and die for their country and neighbors and to better the human condition daily. There are plenty of disasters, natural and human made, that show us what is possible to survive, together. In most cases, no one gets paid to bury the dead or asks for compensation for being a survivor. Why is it good nurses or iron workers, volunteers for eboli epidemics, or widows of Seal men don't flash their credits on Fox News? Maybe because it wouldn't feel right?
10
And to think most WWII veterans returned home reluctant to boast and mostly silent over the terrible things they saw. One word: humility.
18
My father fought for 3 years in the Pacific after graduating from the U.S. Naval Academy. Never said a word about it except once. I only remember his one remark while I was watching "the Sands of Iwo Jima" with John Wayne, "I don't remember seeing him there" as he walked by the TV screen. He did not watch war movies.
6
Clay B Evans*** My father also fought in the WW2 with the Marines on Iwo Jima among other places. Only would speak about it if I pushed him. These men would never brag about killing and war, or make a big deal of it. Humility is right. Plus lots of pain and memories from what they experienced. What a shame that generation is dying off. We certainly could use more of that today.
7
Mr. Greitens' campaign poster says "Missouri Needs a Conservative Outsider."
Someone needs to remind him, and perhaps all the other Navy SEALs, that they were/are employees of the government of the United States of America. Just how is a federal government worker an "outsider"? Claiming he is an "outsider" shows Greiten is either clueless, a fraud, a liar or just another Republican political hack running on the "outsider" ticket. Maybe he could be Trumps' VP.
In either case, the SEALs should be ashamed by the behavior of not only Greiten, but also the laundry list of SEALs who wrote books claiming >they< were the one who killed bin Laden.
One notes with great respect and admiration that Admiral McRaven who actually ran the mission has never uttered a word.
My father, a WWII veteran, and all his fellow veterans (including one decorated Korean War-veteran Navy SEAL) must be rolling over in their graves.
Greiten (and those of his ilk) need to be taught what honor means, and learn to have respect for the US Navy, respect for the bloody taxpayers who paid for his salary, benefits, training, etc. and to show some respect for the people of this country.
At least most of us still know what honor is.
Someone needs to remind him, and perhaps all the other Navy SEALs, that they were/are employees of the government of the United States of America. Just how is a federal government worker an "outsider"? Claiming he is an "outsider" shows Greiten is either clueless, a fraud, a liar or just another Republican political hack running on the "outsider" ticket. Maybe he could be Trumps' VP.
In either case, the SEALs should be ashamed by the behavior of not only Greiten, but also the laundry list of SEALs who wrote books claiming >they< were the one who killed bin Laden.
One notes with great respect and admiration that Admiral McRaven who actually ran the mission has never uttered a word.
My father, a WWII veteran, and all his fellow veterans (including one decorated Korean War-veteran Navy SEAL) must be rolling over in their graves.
Greiten (and those of his ilk) need to be taught what honor means, and learn to have respect for the US Navy, respect for the bloody taxpayers who paid for his salary, benefits, training, etc. and to show some respect for the people of this country.
At least most of us still know what honor is.
10
Now this former Praetorian Guard wants to govern a province of the Empire. What's Rome coming to?. Next thing you know a Nero-esq clown will want to be Emperor challenged only by a Cult Zealot. It almost makes me yearn for the days of the Republic...Oh but that's so long ago.
5
Since money is the only thing people in our country people respect and crave I don't think it's fair to criticize the Seals who want to cash in. We have all become slaves to money. Don't criticize people who put their lives in danger for our country for acting like everybody else! Look in the mirror America.
3
This article caused me to reflect on my own interaction with an ex-Navy SEAL. He hired me in 1970 at age 14 for my first "real" job with his small business, the experience of which ultimately led me to a graduate degree from Harvard and a career in design. In retrospect, I know I owe him a lot for the confidence he placed in me at that young age. He talked little about his SEAL experience, in spite of being a "plank-owner" of SEAL Team 1, but there's little doubt his business acumen and the high respect he was afforded in our community stemmed from his SEAL time. He was the essence of a "quiet professional" from an earlier era. Gary Fraser passed away in November 2015. His ashes were cast in the Pacific off the coast from the SEAL base in Coronado, CA.
9
On behalf of a brother, who was with Team One under Admiral Zumwalt, I have long been aghast at the betrayal of his service by inaccurate pulp paperbacks and by a commercialization his generation would have reviled as virtually criminal and certainly corrupt. The organization's own recruitment website now promotes this decadent motivation as much as any other quality. The institution, itself, is part of its present dishonor. The United States Navy was a noble service once, and only panderers would deny it needs to restore that discipline which made it so.
6
I certainly agree that it would be much classier if SEALs and other veterans did not cash in on their government service. But I am even more troubled by the number of retired generals and admirals who earn a fortune doing "military consulting" for other nations, and the number of former representatives, senators, and cabinet officials who "monetize" their government service by embarking on lucrative careers as lobbyists, investors, etc.
13
If it were possible to look into the minds, hearts, souls and particularly the libidos of all those whom we lionize as saints or heroes, we'd quickly discover that we are ALL human and are ALL flawed But for some reason, we cling to these faerie tales about this one who's good and that one who's bad. Unfortunately, our delusions lead us into some pretty bad decisions like our constant need to beat up those who scare, hence wars, prisons bursting at the seams, ... and Donald Trump
4
Why does anyone think that a former SEAL who is expert at killing people and following orders would be a good representative of citizens in their government?
I wouldn't call them "leaders."
I wouldn't call them "leaders."
18
Wise covert operatives are not braggarts.
5
I agree. Many years their explanation was we cannot confirm or deny our whereabouts, then you get these guys very publicly saying YES We were there. I know that they could be compromising future missions and the safety of their fellow team members by doing so.
3
One hopes that some of the profits from these books etc somehow filters down to the families of former Seals that will never get a chance to write again. Team has many meanings.
6
If Trump can dismiss McCain's military service and imprisonment, and Kerry can be slandered by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, I wonder where the pride in being a serviceman is found.
7
Perhaps the tax paying public can get a cut of the profits? We are the ones, after all, who paid for their training and provided opportunity for their exploits. Or would such thinking be crass?
6
Very crass.
Nonetheless, the Glam Factor needs to be dealt with.
Nonetheless, the Glam Factor needs to be dealt with.
1
As a veteran, not crass at al.
3
The irony is that most of the people who clicked on this story did so BECAUSE it is about the SEALs.
2
Not me. This former Marine who fought in Marines has been disgusted with the SEALs for decades.
7
Fish rots from the head. The top leadership in companies and government is rife with embellished resumes. We had a first term senator anointed president and awarded Nobel prize for being of a certain racial makeup. Right now we have reality TV star on one side and a person with 159 million dollars of paid speeches on other side. A decent candidate who can uplift the masses is basically ignored by the major media. In such a setup no wonder everyone is thinking of monetizing whatever skills and fame potential they have. Seals are right to make hay while the sun shines on the great American reality TV set.
5
Obama won the vote. Twice. No one was anointed. The problem ain't the politicians; it is cynics like you who do nothing yet expect everything.
19
The anoint action happens at the party level, vote is a sham. I am still curious to know his contributions for the Nobel prize. Burning mideast certainly counts.
You don't make your candidate look better by slinging a bunch of lies and distortions at the other ones. Maybe someone whose words are as valuable as you say would make an excellent President.
1
While these guys have every right to capitalize on their experiences, all this exposure will eventually destroy the mystique and glory they (and we) were once so proud of. The special honor, professionalism and heroism of the SEALs will begin to seem commonplace and make it less appealing to young people. Why go through all that painful and grueling training for something that has become rather ordinary?
32
When killing becomes ordinary citizens who were lulled into accepting a draft-free military may live--or die--to regret it. Let's not ignore the fact that beyond any heroism these people are our Jason Bournes--trained assassins.
Most civilizations of the world through history have had elite warriors trained to protect their communities and populations. They could be called trained assassins, I suppose. But like Jason Bourne, they are also human beings who adhere to codes of ethics in order to be more than simply paid murderers. The fictional Bourne quit because his sense of ethics was being violated.
It is critical that we do not think we can do without such elite trained individuals in protection of society. We cannot, while evil is present in the world. We can hopefully restrain and control the use and actions of such elite units so that their work is actually contributing to some "good." Hard to think of killing like that. But most societies through time have understood and created space for such actions when extreme and dire circumstances MUST be handled in such an extreme way. Killing is extreme.
I hate it. And it is something that is sometimes justifiable.
We are, however, using it now in circumstances which aren't justifiable I fear. And too often, too much. We need to spend as much print and acclaim on those who are addressing the reasons people go to war...with more life-affirming approaches. Peacemakers, social justice activists, people who are trying to protect resources shared by us and our children...their stories are as important.
It is critical that we do not think we can do without such elite trained individuals in protection of society. We cannot, while evil is present in the world. We can hopefully restrain and control the use and actions of such elite units so that their work is actually contributing to some "good." Hard to think of killing like that. But most societies through time have understood and created space for such actions when extreme and dire circumstances MUST be handled in such an extreme way. Killing is extreme.
I hate it. And it is something that is sometimes justifiable.
We are, however, using it now in circumstances which aren't justifiable I fear. And too often, too much. We need to spend as much print and acclaim on those who are addressing the reasons people go to war...with more life-affirming approaches. Peacemakers, social justice activists, people who are trying to protect resources shared by us and our children...their stories are as important.
3
Along with the notion that actions have consequences is the effect of the killings on those who are doing it, the SEALS. For example Chris Kyle the American Sniper who was a Navy SEAL. His protection from his actions was a sense of omnipotence. That led him to take on the care of a veteran in crisis that was way out of the sniper's range. And it killed him. Others, less spectacular die by their own hand or with drugs and alcohol, taking others -- wives-- down with them. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Why do we keep deluding ourselves to think otherwise.
2
America has a real problem treating its veterans normally. It swings wildly between worship, neglect, exploitation, and loathing. It's even more accentuated when it comes to special operations veterans, who have that additional mystique. The public seems incapable of considering them human beings. They are either demi-gods or "killing machines."
That seems to be a big part of the problem when these select handful of SEALs veterans use their credentials for media or political careers. It seems Americans have a really hard time of judging appropriately. Why not judge them for the merits of their actual opinions, or actual suitability for the public office, rather than never looking past the uniform?
Maybe if Americans start having a more normal relationship with their veterans - treat them as human beings instead of this extreme hero-worship or knee-jerk aversion - this wouldn't be NYT front page news. It would be a problem for the SEALs veteran community to work out among themselves.
That seems to be a big part of the problem when these select handful of SEALs veterans use their credentials for media or political careers. It seems Americans have a really hard time of judging appropriately. Why not judge them for the merits of their actual opinions, or actual suitability for the public office, rather than never looking past the uniform?
Maybe if Americans start having a more normal relationship with their veterans - treat them as human beings instead of this extreme hero-worship or knee-jerk aversion - this wouldn't be NYT front page news. It would be a problem for the SEALs veteran community to work out among themselves.
8
The critics are missing the Big Picture. In America everyone and everything eventually becomes a commodity subject to the Giant American Merchandising Machine. It's all about fame and the money that fame provides. Hey, how much for a speech that includes the words "duty, honor, country?"
5
Who knew
That the SEALs are a brand owned by the mustered out? Here I thought SEALs were a tiny tiny tiny part of the Navy that the Constitution tells me the president is the Commander in Chief of. That invisible ink constitution, always letting me down...
That mustered out SEALS have a right to blab if the low lifes that brought us the Iraq war on false pretenses, republicans you know, decide to tell the public lies to keep the false pretense war going. When the lies about the Pat Tillman murder in 2004 is coming undone, need to get stories out!
That somehow it didn't make it into the article that army guys have to prove in combat or its equivalent in the ranks that they can be counted on and can keep their mouths shut, but the SEALs are happy to take an 18 year old braggart and tell him he is a superman and send him on his way. Is blabbing part of that famous training?
That you can betray your service as long as someone other than you made money by betraying first. That is the SEAL Code!
When the coup comes, the SEALs will be there.
That the SEALs are a brand owned by the mustered out? Here I thought SEALs were a tiny tiny tiny part of the Navy that the Constitution tells me the president is the Commander in Chief of. That invisible ink constitution, always letting me down...
That mustered out SEALS have a right to blab if the low lifes that brought us the Iraq war on false pretenses, republicans you know, decide to tell the public lies to keep the false pretense war going. When the lies about the Pat Tillman murder in 2004 is coming undone, need to get stories out!
That somehow it didn't make it into the article that army guys have to prove in combat or its equivalent in the ranks that they can be counted on and can keep their mouths shut, but the SEALs are happy to take an 18 year old braggart and tell him he is a superman and send him on his way. Is blabbing part of that famous training?
That you can betray your service as long as someone other than you made money by betraying first. That is the SEAL Code!
When the coup comes, the SEALs will be there.
I guess this is why nobody has any respect for John F. Kennedy- he exploited his wartime heroics in "PT 109" to gain political advantage.
3
JFK actually was a hero; he actually did save his crew; he paid a price with a permanently damaged back. And, in a generation still close to WWII, he had every right to use his service in combat. We now have wars of choice, dubious at best. We have Bush parading around on an aircraft carrier in combat gear, a man who never saw combat. The Seals controversy is some place in between. These men actually served in combat; does that make each of them a hero? I don't know. The Seals will have to sort this out for themselves.
2
The military men and women I respect are those who:
- Revere peace and abhor conflict because they know that ALL who are affected by war suffer;
- Are humble, for they know their abilities and their opportunities were given to them by something greater than themselves (whether understood as God, civilization, or the luck-of-the-draw);
- Strive to strengthen decent ideals—such as honesty and fairness— rather than their own comfort, purse, or ego.
I am honored to have known many worthy of respect.
- Revere peace and abhor conflict because they know that ALL who are affected by war suffer;
- Are humble, for they know their abilities and their opportunities were given to them by something greater than themselves (whether understood as God, civilization, or the luck-of-the-draw);
- Strive to strengthen decent ideals—such as honesty and fairness— rather than their own comfort, purse, or ego.
I am honored to have known many worthy of respect.
9
Those characteristics are exactly how I would describe my father who served in Viet Nam. In retirement he worked with the Red Cross to set up shelters for people in his community who had been displaced by fires or Hurricane Sandy. I know exactly how he would feel about this kind of self-aggrandizement.
10
Deterrence deserves more medals than it wins.
3
I have read a few SEAL books and also some "fighter jock" books. What struck me was the puerile and narcissistic tone of them all. The writing style reminds me of something that might have been written by Donald Trump, except that The Donald never donned a military uniform.
12
Not really surprising. It's part of the job description. 1) You have to be young to meet its physical demands, and with youth comes immaturity. 2) You have to be supremely confident and self-assured, otherwise you crack when the situation turns critical and you end up failing yourself and you team, resulting in getting yourself and others killed. Naturally, only those who have survived can tell their story, so there you are.
I am now out of that age group and I never was in such an elite unit, but when I served there was a similar esprit-de-corps, cockiness and sense of invincibility within us. The difference was that although we would brag among ourselves, doing so in public usually ended up in embarrassment, so we learned otherwise.
A 3rd reason for the thinly veiled narcissism is self-protection. The subconscious does realize the responsibility and the danger that come with the job. Painting it over by portraying oneself larger than life is part of compensating and keeping emotions corked up. Some medical specialties where the life of a patient may depend upon the surgeon being able to work with full concentration and flawlessly for 10+ hours use similar techniques to cope. To that I can speak from experience.
Don't judge the boys too harshly. Be glad that we have them!
I am now out of that age group and I never was in such an elite unit, but when I served there was a similar esprit-de-corps, cockiness and sense of invincibility within us. The difference was that although we would brag among ourselves, doing so in public usually ended up in embarrassment, so we learned otherwise.
A 3rd reason for the thinly veiled narcissism is self-protection. The subconscious does realize the responsibility and the danger that come with the job. Painting it over by portraying oneself larger than life is part of compensating and keeping emotions corked up. Some medical specialties where the life of a patient may depend upon the surgeon being able to work with full concentration and flawlessly for 10+ hours use similar techniques to cope. To that I can speak from experience.
Don't judge the boys too harshly. Be glad that we have them!
7
Actually, you're right. I'll hand it to them. The boys have to have "the right stuff" as you describe to even have the courage and bravado to do what they do. It all comes in the same package. If they could just avoid blabbing about it they could retain their mystique.
4
such an astute comment. thank you.
2
The SEAL brand should be treated like art produced by artists working under the WPA Artists Program of the 1930s. The brand name belongs to the Government. There can be no commercial use or sale of it.
If someone uses it for profit or personal gain , a licensing fee needs to be imposed.
If someone uses it for profit or personal gain , a licensing fee needs to be imposed.
13
I don't go for this macho culture. Bullies and Neanderthals. Similar types sign up to be cops. The real men who came back from WW2 didn't brag. The ones who did were the liars.
15
I don't buy into their "warrior" nonsense either. We now live in an age where we throw around words like "hero" and "patriot" to such an extent where they've lost all meaning. As far as I'm concerned the REAL heroes are those men and women who served in the United States Armed Forces during the Second World War: these kids literally saved the world.
3
One reason these "SEAL Tales" flourish is that so few Americans today (compared to years past) have any real experience with military service. This has created fertile ground for those who have served to embellish that service, either intentionally or unintentionally.
96
Makes me appreciate Delta Force soldiers' and Army Rangers' quiet, professional discretion! Go Army!
13
"Any conservative who would accept Hillary Clinton as president was “either a fool or a liar.”
A good attitude for an applicant to a U.S. Service Academy. If your from a red state congressional district. That's right. Admission to the service academies is by Congressional appointment.
The politicization of the officer corps of armed forces. Why not? Everything else is. Scary.
A good attitude for an applicant to a U.S. Service Academy. If your from a red state congressional district. That's right. Admission to the service academies is by Congressional appointment.
The politicization of the officer corps of armed forces. Why not? Everything else is. Scary.
17
Even scarier is the rampant religiosity in the military, especially at the Air Force Academy. Gun sights with admonitions from the Bible are right out of the ISIS playbook.
11
Whatever the feeling among the SEAL community on this issue one thing is for sure......they have even less sympathy or regard for Obama. The man is detested by Special Op's forces. And in polls taken among all servicemen over the past 7 years the identical opinion of Obama is displayed.
3
Even if that's true, how is it relevant to this article about SEALs going public? Was there some actual point you were trying to make?
2
Why is that?
1
Who cares? Did they admire and respect the coward, "W"? He avoided service running all over the place to get into a Guard unit which would never be deployed. He started an unnecessary war which got a lot of American boys killed and maimed. So, who cares what some of them think of Obama who has at least kept the peace so they can live somewhat normal lives.
1
It's a pity how rightwing politics are damaging the mystique of these brave people. The special ops were about the only institution of government we could still admire unabashedly until 2004 when "Swift Boat Veterans For Truth" appeared to try to falsely brand war hero John Kerry as a liar and a traitor. After that, the deluge. You think they wouldn't want to cheapen their service this way. Sad.
13
The Seals should totally milk it for as long as they can. But the truth is that at some point, these stories will all feel repetitive or derivative.
And that's when the market for this type of drivel will trickle down to normal. It's supply and demand!
And that's when the market for this type of drivel will trickle down to normal. It's supply and demand!
3
I have read 1 book written by a Navy Seal. I have watched numerous videos on Internet that show military personnel from all branches discuss their service and military culture. My take away has been a better understanding of their commitment to protect American people and our freedom. In addition, I am much more grateful for the freedoms than I have been in the past. I do find it interesting that this story comes out in NY Times. I believe the NY Times could be a little more appreciative of their freedoms and have a little more respect those that protect those freedoms from the evil out there that wants to take away those freedoms. The other take away from listening and reading from military personnel is a constant theme of personal responsibility for your life. Again this might go against the beliefs of the NY Times.
3
Which Iraqi oilfield exactly was it that threatened our "freedom"? All they have to do is stand by while we take away our own freedoms with craven laws such as the "Patriot Act".
6
Our institutions -- political, corporate, military, government, church -- are falling like cinder blocks. Might as well add our special ops forces to the list.
6
The Navy itself has contributed to the phenomenon by doing its share of exploiting the mystique of Navy SEALs. The 2012 commercial film, Act of Valor, was made using then-active duty SEALs (which required Navy permission) and had a lot of Navy support and assistance in filming. In turn, the movie was a very slick Navy recruitment film.
While I understand an armed service might want to showcase the contribution of its members, the Navy went pretty far in terms of glamorizing and commercializing the SEALs' media image. So I think it shouldn't be that surprising when individual SEALs might want to do the same.
While I understand an armed service might want to showcase the contribution of its members, the Navy went pretty far in terms of glamorizing and commercializing the SEALs' media image. So I think it shouldn't be that surprising when individual SEALs might want to do the same.
45
You honestly don't see a difference between the SEALs service as a whole doing "official" glamorizing of the unit mission in order to improve recruitment, without personal profit, and individuals personally profiteering from the nation's elite status conferred on them?
1
Money, money, money. Our culture, our society is all about the money. King Midas has been resurrected.
11
Wouldn't it be easier to simply classify all missions, tactics and any non-commercial armament as secret? This would raise the bar for legal disclosure for a reasonable period. Yes, there is too much classification but this would seem appropriate.
Years ago an exercise device called "The Perfect Pushup" was marketed as developed by a SEAL. Would this have sold so well if said to be developed by an Air Force PJ? So this publicity has been going on at some level for a long time. Any blame has to go to the command level.
Years ago an exercise device called "The Perfect Pushup" was marketed as developed by a SEAL. Would this have sold so well if said to be developed by an Air Force PJ? So this publicity has been going on at some level for a long time. Any blame has to go to the command level.
Under our social contract, we have delegated our powers to kill other people to government and its agents to be used with utmost discretion to defend the commonwealth. It sure is disappointing to see them frivolously abused.
2
That's right, except that I would not use the word 'delegated', but 'contracted'.
We, i.e. the public, rail against guns and the Second Amendment, while we have no qualms paying others to do the killing for us.
I find this shameful and cowardly. The right to bear arms RESPONSIBLY and use them in the service of our country is a necessary part of what has made the USA a great nation. We all should honor this privilege with our service to the country. While I honor the conscientious objector who wishes to serve in another capacity, the vast majority of us does not fit into that category. We should take our turns serving in the military. First, the need for military adventures would be far more thoroughly discussed and thought through if the voting public ends up getting drafted - akin to jury duty, and second, we would have a much healthier attitude toward said adventures.
We, i.e. the public, rail against guns and the Second Amendment, while we have no qualms paying others to do the killing for us.
I find this shameful and cowardly. The right to bear arms RESPONSIBLY and use them in the service of our country is a necessary part of what has made the USA a great nation. We all should honor this privilege with our service to the country. While I honor the conscientious objector who wishes to serve in another capacity, the vast majority of us does not fit into that category. We should take our turns serving in the military. First, the need for military adventures would be far more thoroughly discussed and thought through if the voting public ends up getting drafted - akin to jury duty, and second, we would have a much healthier attitude toward said adventures.
2
I have more respect and admiration for O'Neill, Babin, or Luttrell than for any politician. Why would it be wrong for these young men to cash in on their experience when it is exactly what the traitor Bergdahl is doing? And remember the Obama administration releasing secret information about the bin Laden operation for the making of "Zero Dark Thirty"?
In these strange times, are the real heroes the paid Trump protesters?
In these strange times, are the real heroes the paid Trump protesters?
2
These men you refer to are politicians or are making political statements, but you make them immune from your dislike of politicians.
That you don't see that your comment is illogical demonstrates the power the cognitive dissonance has over you.
That you don't see that your comment is illogical demonstrates the power the cognitive dissonance has over you.
10
@Dave Wyman
Some of them are politicians, others will never run for office. As for political statements... It is unfortunate that every statement, every issue becomes political or is interpreted as such.
Some of them are politicians, others will never run for office. As for political statements... It is unfortunate that every statement, every issue becomes political or is interpreted as such.
Navy Seals fight for the American Way which values economic prosperity,.
2
Mr. Greiten pursues the governorship of Missouri based on his earlier position as a Navy Seal. I fail to see how a background as an assassin qualifies him for the governorship of Missouri. Perhaps another reader can help me.
29
Brave men and women stand guard so that know nothings can opine...
4
I'm guessing any Missouri citizen in good standing can "qualify" to be governor just like any born American can be president. Citizenship is the only qualification.
Here we are in the aftermath of The Great Recession. Yes, we're adding jobs but globalization plus automation is straining the system. Moreover, as an Academy guy and former naval officer, I can say that 90% of corporate opportunities are purely mindless, boring drivel with little to no job satisfaction. So it's hard to fault SEALS, many of whom have few skills outside of fast roping and "taking a strain", for trying to make a post-military living.
That said, there are a LOT of Democrats in the SEAL teams, but I haven't heard of a one of them publicly tooting his horn (and fabricating his record and decorations) in the same manner as guys like U.S. Rep. Zinke. Maybe that's because they tend to have the skill set of data-driven thinking.
That said, there are a LOT of Democrats in the SEAL teams, but I haven't heard of a one of them publicly tooting his horn (and fabricating his record and decorations) in the same manner as guys like U.S. Rep. Zinke. Maybe that's because they tend to have the skill set of data-driven thinking.
38
Why begrudge America's military personnel the ability to turn a trick? It is the American way. Capitalizing on experience is what politicians and athletes have been doing for the past century. If a few of America's fighting men and women benefit from turning service into enterprise, they are no different from men and women of prior generations who exploited their talents for commercial gain.
There has always been a divide between how Americans would like to think of themselves and who they really are. Americans are fundamentally boorish, grandstanding, crass, and brash. We see it reflected in reality TV, and in the media's celebration of celebrities who are famous for being famous. It has beem underscored in the current presidential campaign like never before. The ugly American is a well known image abroad not for nothing.
Of course, it doesn't have to be this way. There are many institutions who covet discretion, decorum and propriety and they build that into their culture. Some people refer to it as class.
The ideal of the quiet and dignified soldier is a relic of thr past. It no longer applies in an age when America sends it's soldiers around the world to defend big business. The military deserves to take advantage of the values and prinicipal's they have risked their lives to defend. To do otherwise is, well, unAmerican.
There has always been a divide between how Americans would like to think of themselves and who they really are. Americans are fundamentally boorish, grandstanding, crass, and brash. We see it reflected in reality TV, and in the media's celebration of celebrities who are famous for being famous. It has beem underscored in the current presidential campaign like never before. The ugly American is a well known image abroad not for nothing.
Of course, it doesn't have to be this way. There are many institutions who covet discretion, decorum and propriety and they build that into their culture. Some people refer to it as class.
The ideal of the quiet and dignified soldier is a relic of thr past. It no longer applies in an age when America sends it's soldiers around the world to defend big business. The military deserves to take advantage of the values and prinicipal's they have risked their lives to defend. To do otherwise is, well, unAmerican.
17
My gut thought is that cashing in on one's service is wrong. But I also don't think I should be the one to say anything because I have never served. And it's understandable that some former SEALs would try to cash in: until a few months ago, there was no retirement savings plan for those who hadn't reached the 20 year mark, and military men and women aren't paid well.
4
Well, this kind of behavior proves one thing about their character - it proves they don't have any.
23
They should probably milk the system for all that they can get. I didn't know what they military was about when I was younger, but I would have joined for sure for four years in order to get the tuition benefits. And having worked and seen what kinds of preference veterans get for jobs, it's not a bad deal when you get out if you're smart enough to take advantage of it.
18
Preference? Smat enough to take advantage, you say. How about fortunate enough be stay alive after having done your duty, allowing others to speak of preferences and advantage...
3
For the most part corporate America is suspicious of the military and vetrans despite the narrative they espouse. The stereotype type of the veteran, in particular of former Marines, is that of a maniacal, brainwashed goon regardless of education. Their impression is that from movies such as A Few Good Men and Jack Nicholson.
Special Forces are different. Yes, they should be well taken care of for life. But the people who fill those units should be more than just egotistical mercenaries. That kind of person would be ineffective and disruptive to the unit and to its mission. Hopefully, they will continue to reject such people.
1
Nice, well-balanced article!
It makes sense for individuals to trade on their own experiences and knowledge, as well as their affiliation, but it may strike some readers as sad to see soldiers blabbing about their exploits on an elite fighting unit, or using it as a platform for public office. For many, the mystique of these fighting heroes has always been in their level of sacrifice; and part of that sacrifice has involved keeping mum and foregoing the kind of celebrity and worldly riches these guys are now after. Like the Unknown Soldier, the elite fighting force soldier seemed to epitomize an abiding, exemplary faith in the "unum" part of "e pluribus enum." The personal was of no consequence: God and Country and Chain of Command meant everything. It was their level of dedication that assured us America would prevail in any conflict. We were "indivisible." But, of course, that belief reflected a faith that perhaps no longer exists among the general population. Having observed how mercenaries like Blackwater fought side by side with American troops in Iraq, people may have concluded that there is no essential difference between them. Our soldiers are merely our mercenaries. That being the case, here are soldiers who found additional ways of making service pay. That's just capitalism in action. That these guys are capitalizing on the traditional reputation of elite forces for not capitalizing on their traditional reputation is clever entrepreneurship.
"O tempora, o mores"?
It makes sense for individuals to trade on their own experiences and knowledge, as well as their affiliation, but it may strike some readers as sad to see soldiers blabbing about their exploits on an elite fighting unit, or using it as a platform for public office. For many, the mystique of these fighting heroes has always been in their level of sacrifice; and part of that sacrifice has involved keeping mum and foregoing the kind of celebrity and worldly riches these guys are now after. Like the Unknown Soldier, the elite fighting force soldier seemed to epitomize an abiding, exemplary faith in the "unum" part of "e pluribus enum." The personal was of no consequence: God and Country and Chain of Command meant everything. It was their level of dedication that assured us America would prevail in any conflict. We were "indivisible." But, of course, that belief reflected a faith that perhaps no longer exists among the general population. Having observed how mercenaries like Blackwater fought side by side with American troops in Iraq, people may have concluded that there is no essential difference between them. Our soldiers are merely our mercenaries. That being the case, here are soldiers who found additional ways of making service pay. That's just capitalism in action. That these guys are capitalizing on the traditional reputation of elite forces for not capitalizing on their traditional reputation is clever entrepreneurship.
"O tempora, o mores"?
3
At least these SEALS risked their lives many times over. Conpare this to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who kiss the a** of Obama and have zero guts to tell the reality of the situation to Him. Give me a SEAL any day! At least they can rightfully say, "Mission Accomplished" and not just say, "Rubber Stamped"!
Time to rely more on Delta Force, and put the seals in the Marines where they belong. What is the rationale for a ground force in the Navy except that the CNO doesn't control the Marines. You don't see Delta Force crowing about their exploits.
14
The SEALS can at least Rightfully state, "Mission Accomplished" just after risking their lives; at the same time, the Joint Chiefs of Staff can Accurately state, "Rubber Stamped" after they are gutless to tell their Commander in Chief the Reality of the Situation.
I find it a bit difficult, as a civilian, to criticize any of these guys that have risked life and limb on our behalf but I find that some (clearly a small minority) behave in a way that is somewhat cringeworthy once they return to civilian life.
I have noted a similar phenomenon with some of the guys in the British SAS. They also used to have an absolute code of silence but a number have decided, in recent years, to "cash in" on their service. Again, I want to give these guys the respect their service deserves but what they do in cashing in seems somewhat less than classy.
I have noted a similar phenomenon with some of the guys in the British SAS. They also used to have an absolute code of silence but a number have decided, in recent years, to "cash in" on their service. Again, I want to give these guys the respect their service deserves but what they do in cashing in seems somewhat less than classy.
11
From George Washington to Dwight Eisenhower to John F. Kennedy to Tammy Duckworth our country has always admired military service and its heros. We only object when we disagree with the person who is admired by others.
Why should the guy who shot Osama Bin Laden be less entitled to celebrity status than Justin Bieber or Tom Brady?
Why should the guy who shot Osama Bin Laden be less entitled to celebrity status than Justin Bieber or Tom Brady?
7
The guy who shot OBL was not an entertainer. That is why he is not entitled to celebrity.
21
Because it was a team effort. If he did do it, it was because he got to the room first not because his commander designated him.
30
“Radix malorum est cupiditas” (greed is the root of all evil), "Canterbury Tales" (“Pardoner’s Tale”), Chaucer
Briefly, The Pardoner preaches against greed. However, using his position as an agent of the Church, he extorts the poor, pockets indulgences, and fails to abide by teachings against jealousy and avarice.
Briefly, The Pardoner preaches against greed. However, using his position as an agent of the Church, he extorts the poor, pockets indulgences, and fails to abide by teachings against jealousy and avarice.
2
Special forces certainly don't deserve less acclaim than anyone else who serves. A lot of the heroism is real. Unfortunately, it also makes good copy for recruiters, defense lobbyists and spinmeisters who seek to control the narrative with regard to sometimes questionable missions and budgetary excess.
1
>>>>>
"The defenses that form a person’s character support a grand illusion, and when we grasp this we can understand the full drivenness of man. He is driven away from himself, from self-knowledge, self-reflection. He is driven toward things that support the lie of his character"
Ernst Becker
"The defenses that form a person’s character support a grand illusion, and when we grasp this we can understand the full drivenness of man. He is driven away from himself, from self-knowledge, self-reflection. He is driven toward things that support the lie of his character"
Ernst Becker
6
Just a couple questions provoked by this article. How is it that these guys can use official US military insignia (e.g. the SEAL logo on a political campaign bus or book cover) when they're civilians out to make money or get elected to some office?
And why are these guys vilified for cashing in on their military careers (real or exaggerated) when former generals, admirals and similar officers cash in big time with corporations in the business of selling weapons, securing government contracts or lobbying for same?
And why are these guys vilified for cashing in on their military careers (real or exaggerated) when former generals, admirals and similar officers cash in big time with corporations in the business of selling weapons, securing government contracts or lobbying for same?
18
Political campaigning and political punditry should never be attached to a military logo. The military needs to be non-partisan, and its members refrain from using their uniform or logo on behalf of a party. Factions and private armies have the potential of turning republics into dictatorships. Ave Caesar!
2
This country worships the military, makes sense that some who served would exploit that for personal gain. Especially coming off two wars.
4
Professional assassins should know better than to raise high profiles.
7
Much of the Seals’ more recent PR challenges stem from the OBL raid which continues to draw criticism as to both fact and tactical narrative, reinforced by the larger reputation of the GWOT. Indeed, it may be hypothesized that an absence of more substantive, legitimate engagements has led to behavioral and cognitive compensation. As for monetizing reputation, whether in civil or military settings, it is hardly a new or novel phenomenon; indeed the long history of warfare is soaked in historicism and even in America’s relatively recent past, the political and media economy provided the most prominent form—and abuse; e.g. Lyndon Johnson’s arranged “battle” experience in the Pacific; HRC’s “dodging sniper fire” phantasy; NBC reporter Brian William’s imaginary helicopter RPG fire and crash; Oliver North’s Vietnam and Central America bravado; George Bush’s carrier landing, dressed in flight gear proclaiming “mission accomplished.” The world is full of false heroes, providing false examples to the country’s military and citizens. Even this year, the country’s political election cycle provides among the least inspiring examples of civilian leader and statesmanship, an inexcusable circus made up of Papa Smurf, Hell-Boy and Lady Macbeth, all packaged and sold by the media, that can only leave military personnel utterly demoralized—and perhaps most dangerously, utterly leaderless and undisciplined but for their own personal integrity.
9
They should all be forced to sign a non-disclosure clause, or get out. Period.
How long before a mission is compromised in order to score better book sales later on? It's disgusting. Truly disgusting.
And, I'm just wondering, but are all the blabber mouths Republican?
How long before a mission is compromised in order to score better book sales later on? It's disgusting. Truly disgusting.
And, I'm just wondering, but are all the blabber mouths Republican?
29
Republicans? Democrats? Who cares. Whatever else they might be, one thing is certain. They're brave men possessed of far greater character than the key board cowards who call them vile names...
3
When retired military brass stops selling their connections and experience to the military/industrial complex, then they can start criticizing SEALs, and similar others, for monetizing their experiences. It's shameless on some level perhaps, but the brass showed everybody the way when they started selling out long ago.
19
Real heroes don't brag.
Easy fix: Don't buy their books, don't go to the movies about them, and never, ever elect one of these characters to anything. In war, killing is an accomplishment. Outside war, avoiding it is the goal. Do we really want to put these people in power?
Easy fix: Don't buy their books, don't go to the movies about them, and never, ever elect one of these characters to anything. In war, killing is an accomplishment. Outside war, avoiding it is the goal. Do we really want to put these people in power?
26
No one seems to be asking the important question here: why do these men seek public recognition for deeds that are typically withheld from public view? Is this a cultural problem with our youth's obsessive twitter/instagram fame? Is there a major disconnect between civil society and the military that these men seek to remedy? The NYT asserts that there may be a culture of self-promotion established by the brass. I have a 10-year career in Special Operations and can say that the Navy SEAL writing a memoir is a running (friendly) joke in the military SO community.
The reality is that men return home from these deployments and there seems to be no easy way to bridge the divide between combat and civilian life. People think we're assassins or superheroes, or blindly following orders like robots. Some of my civilian friends thought I was an emotionless killing machine despite no evidence to that fact. Many don't even try to make an effort to understand, and that is what is so exhausting. We don't want hero-worship. We're not narcissists, but this current generation is obsessed with social media fame and only encourages self-seeking behavior. American culture is suffering from a lack of mature moral leadership.
The reality is that men return home from these deployments and there seems to be no easy way to bridge the divide between combat and civilian life. People think we're assassins or superheroes, or blindly following orders like robots. Some of my civilian friends thought I was an emotionless killing machine despite no evidence to that fact. Many don't even try to make an effort to understand, and that is what is so exhausting. We don't want hero-worship. We're not narcissists, but this current generation is obsessed with social media fame and only encourages self-seeking behavior. American culture is suffering from a lack of mature moral leadership.
71
Great comment.
3
Exactly. Green Berets, every bit as tough as Seals, were embarrassed by the press they received from the likes of John Wayne and Chuck Norris. They moved out of the spotlight and are the forgotten ones, they roll their eyes about the Seals. Rangers are much larger and usually stay out of the spotlight anyway and Delta would never speak out in public. What we have is people cashing in on something that should stay sacred. I get the need to make money, strike while the iron is hot, but it was never supposed to be about the money. Do your job and go home, happy that you lived through combat, if you saw any in the first place.
3
We have just such a mature man: our current President. Yet, he is still constantly demonized and obstructed, even to the point of aiding and abetting our enemies, and damaging the nation, by an entire political Party!
Their current frontrunner to replace him, Trump, made much out of constantly lying about where Obama was born, even sending "investigators" to Hawaii to check for falsehood! Trump lies and belittles others constantly, and has little true accomplishment to his name, except considerable ability to sell himself as a brand. Much of his wealth is a fantasy, as he adds openly billions to his bottom line based on what he *personally believes* the Trump name is worth. If we all did that, most Americans would be millionaires! Experts who track his worth in the real world say his *actual true net worth* is likely not much more than a billion dollars, possibly much less.
Considering he was born into vast wealth, and what his father left him, putting all that money into an annuity and walking away, would have Trump far richer today. Numerous business failures, bankruptcies, and a vast ignorance and indifference about the rest of the world, replaced by yawning chasms of self confidence, is not much to be proud of. He's almost 70: many people have done vastly more over time with the wealth left them. Many others came up from nowhere and built empires!
Is such a hollow man what we truly value? Maybe this is why exSeals want to cash in. Look at who so many are drawn to!
Their current frontrunner to replace him, Trump, made much out of constantly lying about where Obama was born, even sending "investigators" to Hawaii to check for falsehood! Trump lies and belittles others constantly, and has little true accomplishment to his name, except considerable ability to sell himself as a brand. Much of his wealth is a fantasy, as he adds openly billions to his bottom line based on what he *personally believes* the Trump name is worth. If we all did that, most Americans would be millionaires! Experts who track his worth in the real world say his *actual true net worth* is likely not much more than a billion dollars, possibly much less.
Considering he was born into vast wealth, and what his father left him, putting all that money into an annuity and walking away, would have Trump far richer today. Numerous business failures, bankruptcies, and a vast ignorance and indifference about the rest of the world, replaced by yawning chasms of self confidence, is not much to be proud of. He's almost 70: many people have done vastly more over time with the wealth left them. Many others came up from nowhere and built empires!
Is such a hollow man what we truly value? Maybe this is why exSeals want to cash in. Look at who so many are drawn to!
Former SEALs need to take a page from the book of their Israeli counterparts: silence! That's how a real patriot shows his heroism.
20
I served as a SEAL in the early to mid 1970's - post Vietnam. We referred to ourselves as "SEALs" which didn't mean anything to those outside our immediate community. There were less than 1,000 of us on active duty. I liked it that way.
Then in 1990 came the movie "Navy SEALs" and no longer were we just "SEALs," - now it had to be "Navy SEALs." That was followed by "Demo Dick" Marcinko's book "Rogue Warrior" and a flood of books, movies, video games and who knows what else.
Maybe I'm just jealous (while I might have a few funny stories, no one is going to buy any book I write) but I don't think it's appropriate to capitalize on military service, especially for political purposes. John Kerry can be proud (or not) of his Navy service, but that shouldn't be the basis of anyone's vote for or against him.
Then in 1990 came the movie "Navy SEALs" and no longer were we just "SEALs," - now it had to be "Navy SEALs." That was followed by "Demo Dick" Marcinko's book "Rogue Warrior" and a flood of books, movies, video games and who knows what else.
Maybe I'm just jealous (while I might have a few funny stories, no one is going to buy any book I write) but I don't think it's appropriate to capitalize on military service, especially for political purposes. John Kerry can be proud (or not) of his Navy service, but that shouldn't be the basis of anyone's vote for or against him.
18
I'm 4th generation veteran, my wife is a 3rd generation veteran.
The cooks and bakers, supply rats, truckers, mechanics, back office personnel, etc. are the ones make the sharp end of the spear sharp.
Those who serve in the humblest of positions in every military branch are deserving of the same sort of admiration as any Special Forces member.
But nobody will make a movie of a forklift operator loading trucks for 24 hours straight to feed supply to a unit miles away or someone punching a keyboard to make sure everybody gets paid and the money gets to the homefront or all those myriad other 'boring' tasks every military requires.
Besides, I was always under the impression being among 'the best' obviated the need to bang on about how good one is.
The cooks and bakers, supply rats, truckers, mechanics, back office personnel, etc. are the ones make the sharp end of the spear sharp.
Those who serve in the humblest of positions in every military branch are deserving of the same sort of admiration as any Special Forces member.
But nobody will make a movie of a forklift operator loading trucks for 24 hours straight to feed supply to a unit miles away or someone punching a keyboard to make sure everybody gets paid and the money gets to the homefront or all those myriad other 'boring' tasks every military requires.
Besides, I was always under the impression being among 'the best' obviated the need to bang on about how good one is.
46
Well stated. There is not a pog without a CAR or CIB anywhere that would disagree with you.
Yes those who operate from desks in the rear do an important job. Those who fix things that are broke or those who order replacement parts do an important job. No combat person I know has ever denied that.
But most people sadly don't want to hear what a tough life it was for some office worker who slept on clean sheets every night under cover and never went to sleep really hungry or really scared.
those RE stories need to be told as well
Yes those who operate from desks in the rear do an important job. Those who fix things that are broke or those who order replacement parts do an important job. No combat person I know has ever denied that.
But most people sadly don't want to hear what a tough life it was for some office worker who slept on clean sheets every night under cover and never went to sleep really hungry or really scared.
those RE stories need to be told as well
Actually the've made a couple of 'em. Red Ball Express and The Fighting Sea Bees come to mind but both date from WWII - a war of draftees that comprised a citizen army. Might be the difference between now and then.
1
Best CO I ever worked for was a guy who had all the tee-shirts including the one leg and one eyed club.
He said,
"There are no little jobs, only large opportunities confronting little minds."
He had the command gift of making everyone know the success of the mission belongs to everyone and especially you.
He said,
"There are no little jobs, only large opportunities confronting little minds."
He had the command gift of making everyone know the success of the mission belongs to everyone and especially you.
4
This is really the Navy's doing. They have always been the most aggressive service at using pop culture as a recruiting tool. The Army on the other hand does a comically bad job of this, many terrible movies were supported by the Army (i.e. Firebirds), but most decent Army movies were not. Not sure when it started, but Top Gun was supported by the Navy and was a huge boost to recruiting. You see the same thing with their commercials today -- at least 50% of the footage seems to be SEALs who make up less than 1% of the active Navy. Incidentally the Marines definitely do the best -- they offer the fewest recruiting incentives, just the opportunity to be a Marine be it a rifleman or cook. Hopefully their foray into SOF with MARSOC or whatever it's called now doesn't change this.
4
This America, land of the free and home of the brave, where all who aspire to get rich quick and to join the ranks of vacuous celebrities such Sarah Palin and/or to be depicted in a Hollywood blockbuster, can and should do so. So why all he fuss and hand-wringing over books by and movies about SEALs and the unseemly self-aggrandizement in all of them? Heck, in a few years I predict we will see Cirque du Soleil show in Vegas reenacting the SEALs' take-down of bin Laden. The royalties from the Vegas show to the by then 46 former SEALs who claim to have fired the bullet that killed bin Laden will be enormous even if divided among 46 recipients.
I can't wait to read Jocko Willink and Leif Babin's "book about leadership." Anyone who encourages treasonous conduct, as Mr. Babin does in twittering that "any conservative who would accept Hillary Clinton as president was 'either a fool or a liar,'” surely possesses other equally brilliant advice on leadership. No wonder that fulcrum of brilliance, honesty true patriotism, Fox News, uses these two guys.
I can't wait to read Jocko Willink and Leif Babin's "book about leadership." Anyone who encourages treasonous conduct, as Mr. Babin does in twittering that "any conservative who would accept Hillary Clinton as president was 'either a fool or a liar,'” surely possesses other equally brilliant advice on leadership. No wonder that fulcrum of brilliance, honesty true patriotism, Fox News, uses these two guys.
91
This starts with the Navy brass which has tricked tens of thousands of young men into joining the Navy. They have no chance of passing the training let alone the test, which is attempted after boot camp. The Navy has a press release about every mission and features this group in their advertising. The reality is that the miitary's elite should come from the Army and Marine infantry where warrior skills have already been judged, but the Navy long ago realized the value of this dishonest recruiting tool.
9
How is this different from ex-congress members heading straight to K Street or Wall Street? Or ex-Presidents making gazillions on worthless books and speaking tours, favored jobs, etc.? Bill? Hillary? Hillary's emails? How is that different from Navy Seals writing about their missions? Sadly, there are no more public examples of high ethical standards, and that's exactly why this election season is in such turmoil.
6
Absolutely no difference.
3
How are Clinton's emails related to this article? Is it a game, where you draw a Clinton meme and have to work it into a comment? You are only telling everyone that the GOP is running very, very scared of her.
1
It's all about the money and the ego.
4
Shall we talk about the "Wounded Warrior" rip-off scam? Truly dishonorable behavior by supposed advocates of "heroes".
24
Simple Fix: Pass legislation making it illegal to cash in on one's active duty exploits- I mean J-O-B. This could have been avoided long ago. There will always be those whose desire for fame and fortune outweigh their morality. We are to blame as well because we love the Thrill-of-the-kill. We manufacture action-figure dolls (remember GI Joe). We revel in videos- Mortal Combat and a whole host of other "get the bad-guy" franchises; this is just another step in the real-live action series. There used to be a thing called Honor in serving one's Country- where did that go-oh- To the highest bidder.
3
Like former members of congress and regulatory bodies become highly paid lobbyist as soon as the leave the government? There used to be a thing called honor.
4
Generals and admirals have been turning their rank into post-rerirement $$$s on the boards of armaments manufacturers since the end of WW2. More recently, some enlist to get a security clearance, which is then the ticket to employment at salaries far beyond what almost anyone in uniform makes. When military service becomes something other than a duty and privilege of citizenship and a contribution to the public good, should we be surprised that service members, SEALs included, become preoccupied with maximizing their personal returns? As we've consciously sought to 'harness market forces' in fielding military forces through contracting and outsourcing, we should expect that our service members would respond by becoming more profit driven. And, since the vast majority of us are shielded from the rigors of service, we should also expect the development of a market for vicarious experience of the satisfactions of service, the demand for which the tales of SEALs and others meets, at, of course, a market driven rate.
15
Duty, Honor, Country demands that our soldiers, sailors, and airmen remain 100% out of partisan politics period. The Seal running for Governor who blames ratting out his comrades should be seen for exactly what he admits to being i.e. a rat to his comrades in arms. The loudest person in a room is never the strongest and we need to honor the true professional warriors who do the job.
34
Thank you!
6
And keep them out of the military/industrial/national security state complex, too? That stuff gets very political, does it not?
3
I have several friends who served in Army Special Forces (Green Berets) during the Viet Nam era. They all combat, and several were wounded. However, they seldom, if ever, mention the war, or their roles in it beyond a few generalities.
However, when I see pickups plastered with bumper stickers that proclaim, "Viet Nam, I was There," I suspect - perhaps unfairly - that many of the drivers were probably cooks, clerks or latrine orderlies, because I was taught that gentlemen don't brag about themselves.
Becoming a Seal is a genuine accomplishment and those who actually perform their duties and adhere to their oaths deserve all the credit we can give them. Real heroes, for example, former Senator/Seal John Kerrey, who lost part of a foot, and Secretary of State John Kerry, who received several Purple Hearts (and then was demeaned by the Republican Swift Boaters in one of the most dishonorable actions in the history of cowardly political attacks), are often lauded by their supporters, but rarely crow about their service. Presidential Candidate George McGovern, who piloted a B-24 on more than 20 combat missions during WWII, received all sorts of abuse from the right for has anti-VN war stance. Also, look at the case of John McCain and the loutish Trump's comments about his service.
This Greiten fellow appears to be just a slicker version of the "Stolen Valour" crowd. It's no surprise that he's being outted by his own fellow Seals.
However, when I see pickups plastered with bumper stickers that proclaim, "Viet Nam, I was There," I suspect - perhaps unfairly - that many of the drivers were probably cooks, clerks or latrine orderlies, because I was taught that gentlemen don't brag about themselves.
Becoming a Seal is a genuine accomplishment and those who actually perform their duties and adhere to their oaths deserve all the credit we can give them. Real heroes, for example, former Senator/Seal John Kerrey, who lost part of a foot, and Secretary of State John Kerry, who received several Purple Hearts (and then was demeaned by the Republican Swift Boaters in one of the most dishonorable actions in the history of cowardly political attacks), are often lauded by their supporters, but rarely crow about their service. Presidential Candidate George McGovern, who piloted a B-24 on more than 20 combat missions during WWII, received all sorts of abuse from the right for has anti-VN war stance. Also, look at the case of John McCain and the loutish Trump's comments about his service.
This Greiten fellow appears to be just a slicker version of the "Stolen Valour" crowd. It's no surprise that he's being outted by his own fellow Seals.
37
>>>
Sartre has called man a “useless passion” because he is so hopelessly bungled, so deluded about his true condition. He wants to be a god with only the equipment of an animal, and so he thrives on fantasies.
Sartre has called man a “useless passion” because he is so hopelessly bungled, so deluded about his true condition. He wants to be a god with only the equipment of an animal, and so he thrives on fantasies.
2
George McGovern actually flew over 40 missions, volunteering for a second tour after completing the 30 missions that entitled him to be rotated home. He stayed for the duration.
7
Col. Robert Howard who is a true legend among the Special Ops community was my Battalion Commender at Special Troops Battallion VII Corps back in the day. For those who do not know him or of him here is a snapshot from his NYT Obit http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/25/us/25howard.html
He was nominated for the Medal of Honor 3 times and rose from Private to Colonel, along the way doing an amazing list of things and yet was a humble man. He asked nothing of his troops he was not willing to do himself, he championed his young troops- especially the Non-Commissioned Officers that are the backbone of any military service. He set high standards and held himself to high standards for all of us.
Col Howard probably had more to brag about than anyone who served during his lifetime, yet used his example to encourage and build up others. Well past retirement age he was going to the battlefields of Iraq and Afghsnistan to encourage our servicemen and women in harm's way.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR201001...
These people trading on the SEAL image to advance their politics dishonor themselves and the Navy they served in.
He was nominated for the Medal of Honor 3 times and rose from Private to Colonel, along the way doing an amazing list of things and yet was a humble man. He asked nothing of his troops he was not willing to do himself, he championed his young troops- especially the Non-Commissioned Officers that are the backbone of any military service. He set high standards and held himself to high standards for all of us.
Col Howard probably had more to brag about than anyone who served during his lifetime, yet used his example to encourage and build up others. Well past retirement age he was going to the battlefields of Iraq and Afghsnistan to encourage our servicemen and women in harm's way.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/22/AR201001...
These people trading on the SEAL image to advance their politics dishonor themselves and the Navy they served in.
3
America loves to make people into heroes. Every military person - including navy seals and green berets - is not a hero. Seals are trained killers. For Mr. Greitens“ to say, "The more successful Navy SEALs there are, the more glory it reflects on the community and the better it is for our country.” is actually very scary. Sorry, Mr. Greitens, that is not the kind of "glory" thinking that I want in people running MY country. Sounds like you can be very successful as a fox so-called news talking head. Stick with your community.
24
Cashing out to cash in: the Navy SEAL way. This is what happens when we elevate physical courage over moral courage and honor.
112
Debating the case of SEALs who might seek to profit from their experience is pointless, when America long ago came to identify the value of life experience with money. Nothing matters in our culture as much as $$$$$$.
It is the reason we "honor" teachers, social workers, child care workers and others to whom devotion is measured in terms altogether non-materialistic. In so doing, we mask our fundamental hypocricy: We know full well that we pay for what we truly value.
It is the reason we "honor" teachers, social workers, child care workers and others to whom devotion is measured in terms altogether non-materialistic. In so doing, we mask our fundamental hypocricy: We know full well that we pay for what we truly value.
18
My father, long deceased, was a World War II combat veteran. He served in a Navy scouts and raiders unit, one of the forerunners of the SEALs. Though proud of his service, he never said a word about his combat experience, inside or outside the family. He would be appalled at today's SEALs who write about and trade on their service.
115
Everybody loves a military hero and wants to feel connected with the popularity that comes with notoriety. This is how Hollywood sells films and Nike sells shoes. If there is a chance to make money off of such notoriety, it will be done. It's human nature.
1
It's appalling how former SEALS are publicly promoting themselves and profiting as individuals for something so fundamentally a team-driven, discretion dependent endeavor. So basically, if you are a retiring SEAL team member, you ought to get yourself an agent right away, less your brothers beat you to the talk-show, book-contract, movie rights game? And lest we forget, these men in their 40s who are retiring from the military are doing so with generous pensions. I doubt they need the money from going public. It's all about ego. And ego is the last thing you rely on in life and death missions. Essentially, they are forsaking the principles that made them exceptional and heroic in order to gain fame. Appalling, but on some level no surprise in our era of tabloid politics.
23
To someone who served in the British Special Air Service (SAS) it comes as a surprise to see how (some) members of SEALs seek attention.
15
Because ex-SAS members have never done a similar thing - like movies, books, a reality TV show on right now.
Bravo Two Zero anybody??
Bravo Two Zero anybody??
1
“In the SEALs we learned, ‘there is no prize for second place in a gun fight,’” states Greiten.
He might want to give credit where due. I believe the original quote was from the book " No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan, famed border patrol shootist. "There is no second place winner in a gun fight."
He might want to give credit where due. I believe the original quote was from the book " No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan, famed border patrol shootist. "There is no second place winner in a gun fight."
12
Eh, how much does the Navy pay? If there's a market for what they've got that pays them more, the answer is "not enough." There's nothing more American than that.
2
I once saw a TV interview with the widow of American Sniper, in which she was asked to describe her husband. Her reply: "Humble". I thought to myself, that's hardly a word I would use to describe a person who wrote a book about himself.
125
And invented no small part of it, too.
2
Third negative comment I've read about Chris Kyle and his book. There were two other authors. I suspect they played a part in the tone of the book.
Kyle did a job extremely well. His ending was extraordinarily tragic; especially given what he had set out to do on that fateful day--which was help someone else. I think he probably was humble. And also extremely war-impacted.
Kyle did a job extremely well. His ending was extraordinarily tragic; especially given what he had set out to do on that fateful day--which was help someone else. I think he probably was humble. And also extremely war-impacted.
2
I am currently reading "American Sniper". What strikes me is that this guy can't wait to get in the fight and kill. My father was a soldier in WW2 and never spoke about the things he did as they bothered his conscience greatly. He told me one story when he was in in 70s and he had to tell it in the 3rd person as if it was not him killing someone. He also could not finish the story but rather ended it by asking me "what would you do in this situation?"
197
@Wacker
A beautiful post.
Thank you
A beautiful post.
Thank you
1
What's more American than hype and ego? All that these men want is their slice of the pie, and it's hard to argue that they haven't earned it.
1
I served in the Navy a long time ago (definitely not a SEAL)...but what I learned then remains true today; it is NOT about you, it is about the ship, or the squadron, or whatever unit you serve in. We minimized personal decorations, because what we coveted was a Navy "E" award, which we won or lost together. It should remain that way today, not only in the SEALs but in the Navy.
31
Seals, like ALL military members need to do their jobs as they were trained to do when ordered to do so by the CIC. This can turn out good like when OBAMA ordered them to take down Osama bin Laden. Thankfully they did as OBAMA ordered successfully. And, YES, the CIC gets the credit for a successful OP. I know that's really annoying to some, but it is reality. And, of course, the blame for an unsuccessful one. What Seals need to do is to do their job, and shut their yaps afterward. That's how secret ops work. No need to try and go Hollywood. Pretty simple. If you don't think so, get down and give me 20.
27
You're obviously not aware of Leon Panetta's and Robert Gates' books on their time in the OBAMA cabinet. OBAMA was strongly against the Bin laden mission at the outset fearing it would end up like the Carter mission to rescue the American's in Tehran. He persisted in his refusal for several days and Panetta and Gates and Hillary Clinton literally had to twist his arm to finally get him to agree. So all credit due to Panetta, Gates and C;linton. Not OBAMA.
@Mark - It's always easier to be gung ho when you are not the one who is going to be holding the bag, and the only one with that responsibility in this instance was the President. Reticence to launch a military incursion at the top is what I want. I personally wish there was some more reticence to launch drone strikes - not abolition, just more reticence and greater care to avoid bombing hospitals, weddings, etc. But either way, it is the President's call, nobody else's. The credit for the decision therefore goes to the President because, at the end of the day, it is their decision alone.
7
Clearly you don't understand the management technique that has an initial No leading to an eventual Yes when proper planning for all contingencies and devils' advocacies are performed. It's the kind of m.o. that leads to a successful campaign of any sort. That you can't give any credit to Obama for eventually saying Yes says more about you than him.
5
This a very difficult issue to decide on.
Definitely classified techniques and technologies should not be allowed to be portrayed in realistic detail in the movies, as such obviously compromises the safety of the soldiers now in combat.
On the other hand I read Bissonette's book and I found it refreshing to get a commandos view of the Bin Laden raid, especially since he explains in the books prelude that he was writing in part, because he felt the official story coming through the Pentagon/White House was misleading in several important ways.
I also read one called "Seal Team 6: a memoirs of Howard Wasdin", and found it very informative to hear his life story, which actually was well-written (with help from professional writer Stephen Templin) and came through as an honest re-telling refreshingly free of bravado.
I think those books helped me understand our commandos a bit better.
I also think that using SEAL status to do things like start a foundation aimed at providing assistance to veterans is a laudable effort to make.
But at some point, it just becomes more 3-D G.I. Joe glorification .
And the terrorists can study all this publicly available material to help them prepare to counter the Special Ops in the real world. That should definitely be of concern.
Definitely classified techniques and technologies should not be allowed to be portrayed in realistic detail in the movies, as such obviously compromises the safety of the soldiers now in combat.
On the other hand I read Bissonette's book and I found it refreshing to get a commandos view of the Bin Laden raid, especially since he explains in the books prelude that he was writing in part, because he felt the official story coming through the Pentagon/White House was misleading in several important ways.
I also read one called "Seal Team 6: a memoirs of Howard Wasdin", and found it very informative to hear his life story, which actually was well-written (with help from professional writer Stephen Templin) and came through as an honest re-telling refreshingly free of bravado.
I think those books helped me understand our commandos a bit better.
I also think that using SEAL status to do things like start a foundation aimed at providing assistance to veterans is a laudable effort to make.
But at some point, it just becomes more 3-D G.I. Joe glorification .
And the terrorists can study all this publicly available material to help them prepare to counter the Special Ops in the real world. That should definitely be of concern.
3
Elite military units are sexy, and sex sells. That said, there is a line, and I believe soldiers should receive permission before publicizing their military experiences. Details that could compromise national security is espionage for profit, and in war, we shoot people like that. When is that line crossed? I don't know. But while I'm all for free speech and a retired grunt making a buck, I want to make sure that the script or book is cleared by the Pentagon, not Hollywood.
We live in a warring nation that the Royalist GOP calls a free market economy which is actually a for-profit oligopoly. For a professional to use their experience in their profession to generate income for themselves is, in my opinion, unethical, but it is not illegal. You cannot legislate morality so don't even try. The fact that some people are creeps should be acknowledged. You don't have to respect them, buy their books, or vote for them. Ignore them and don't write articles about them.
9
I think the trend of image over content for profit has become the American way. Look no further than the Kardashian Klan.
In the military, since Dick Cheney's push for privatization at least, getting paid to be trained on the tax payers dime for a more lucrative future is just shrewd, whether it's a future in corporate security, as a military contractor, survivalist training or a book deal. It's too bad, but the horse left the barn decades ago.
In the military, since Dick Cheney's push for privatization at least, getting paid to be trained on the tax payers dime for a more lucrative future is just shrewd, whether it's a future in corporate security, as a military contractor, survivalist training or a book deal. It's too bad, but the horse left the barn decades ago.
11
This publicity-seeking is a distraction which will affect mission someday, if it hasn't already.
True operators understand and respect the value (to their comrades and their country) of remaining low key.
True operators understand and respect the value (to their comrades and their country) of remaining low key.
8
The article raises the question of why the military should be able to publicize the SEALS for recruitment purposes, yet members can't for their own publicity and/or profits. While I can see how publicizing the SEALS can heighten national morale, and I agree that the sharing of stories, particularly one's depicting an "American" experience are vital to American cultural, some matters are meant to remain in seclusion. I believe much of the prestige surrounding the Navy SEALS is derived from their ability to do heroic, selfless acts simply because they are necessary for the protection of our nation, not because praise and recognition awaits them upon return to the U.S. For this reason, I believe Lieutenant Crowell is completely merited in his comments, especially those describing how Navy SEALS are slowly progressing into becoming political pawns.
14
I'm not saying it's right but can you blame these guys, they are just doing what everyone in a high position in society is doing. Congressmen, ex Presidents, current President, former government officials, baseball players, Peyton Manning, actors, they are all for sale. It's never ever enough for some but they all have a price. I'm just waiting for Bruce Springsteen to finally sell out because you know it's coming. Time to monetize the brand.
2
I understand the visceral distaste for some of the commercialization, but the traditional secrecy of the SEALs and other OPs does have a downside.
First, if the bad guys really understood what they are up against some of them would think twice.
Second, the secrecy leads to all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories. Nuts have tried to connect OPs to the Boston bombings and Newtown shootings because they are so secretive.
Third, carrying these experiences as a secret make them a burden. I have urged OPs to adopt an understanding attitude towards the former members profiting from their personal experiences, particularly by telling their stories. That is often very therapeutic for vets.
Finally, it is not going to stop. In fact these efforts to restrict commercialization only makes the experiences more valuable. If every SEAL wrote a book they would be very cheap.
First, if the bad guys really understood what they are up against some of them would think twice.
Second, the secrecy leads to all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories. Nuts have tried to connect OPs to the Boston bombings and Newtown shootings because they are so secretive.
Third, carrying these experiences as a secret make them a burden. I have urged OPs to adopt an understanding attitude towards the former members profiting from their personal experiences, particularly by telling their stories. That is often very therapeutic for vets.
Finally, it is not going to stop. In fact these efforts to restrict commercialization only makes the experiences more valuable. If every SEAL wrote a book they would be very cheap.
3
I don't really have a problem with retired SEALS, or of other units, making a profit on having been one, so long as they aren't exploiting something that was a SEAL mission or training. After all, I enjoy watching and/or reading about it. But, because it's a publicly funded team, to a very limited degree, a chunk of the proceeds should go contractually (that means they would have to sign the contract while in the armed forces in order to belong) to their units for wounded warriors and the like. It's complicated, and it would have to be limited to profiting specifically on SEAL related activities, not just on getting the benefit of being known as a former member. So, those who run for office or get a great job or write fiction because of the connection shouldn't have to pay. Those who write No Easy Day type books or work on movies of actual events, should have to pay. Probably what that would mean is more fiction based loosely on history and fewer biographies and histories. Just my opinion.
1
As a retired officer, I am sickened by the idea that even former members would use their military histories to criticize the Commander in Chief on Fox or any other outlet. It's OK to criticize, but not when you are representing your military service, whether you are in, or out of uniform.
248
There is a very simple solution to this problem - stop giving missions to the SEALs. As has been documented there are many other SOF Units that do a far better job of keeping their mouth shut. It is time to break the NSW down and rebuild it with qualified Officers. There are plenty of SOF related training missions to send them on.
6
I'm a Vietnam veteran, a former Navy SEAL with about 70 combat operations experience. I' quite proud of my service. I left the Teams in 1971 and the command made it clear not to discuss with the press our specific operations. It was the Vietnam War, after all, and the country displayed little general interest or understanding of SEAL Team's role in that unpopular conflict. While I'm grateful for the current appreciation for our armed forces, especially SEAL Team, I share some of my teammate's unease of the glamour boy status, especially the occasional whining, pursued by some. The Teams (there are several) effectively execute dangerous missions that by nature require a descent interval of confidentiality. It is a profession where keeping one's mouth is a virtue.
335
Either loyalty to group is a core value or it isn't. The SEALs can't have it both ways, touting it as a strength while they betray it to make money. The country asks these men to make black and white decisions in a gray world. And knowing they have values that cannot be corrupted is how we do it. These men seeking the spotlight no longer deserve their unit's or their country's respect. The Navy needs to deal with this.
15
The attention sought by the SEAL team member which killed Bin Laden has always irritated me. This is a person which was a member of a team participating in a mission which involved a vast number of people. He happened to be the person that was in a position to kill Bin Laden. This doesn't make him any more important than other members of the team. It doesn't make him more important than any of the thousands of people participating in the military/intelligence system which led to the event.
Unfortunately we live in a society that blindly lionizes military accomplishment. Those that seek fame and fortune through military service are the lowest of the low.
Unfortunately we live in a society that blindly lionizes military accomplishment. Those that seek fame and fortune through military service are the lowest of the low.
200
Self promotion is rampant in this age of narcissism. Units like the SEALS will continue to attract narcissists. It's sad because that not what specials ops is all about.
10
make sure your trademark vitamins dont contain Magnesium Stearate (cheap!) or Petroleum derived Folic Acid (Toxic!). Ive done research on Petroleum Folic Acid & Magnesium Stearate. See my letters to my doctor, as you undoubtedly have unfettered access to.
It's not surprising Mr Babin promoted his book on Fox news -- he's married to Fox anchor Jenna Lee.
8
MethylFolate is times better then Folic Acid as far as brain health, treating depression & anxiety. Niacin (as inositol hexanocinate) metabolizes better w/out stressing the Liver, as most service members abuse alcohol its important to formulate vitamins that do not further damage your already weakened organs.
All special operators, SEALs in particular spent too much of their time looking in the mirror.
I'll take drafted line infantry over "special operators" any day of the week.
They do the job, they won WWII(the last one we won), and come home. Mostly the only time we heard from drafted soldiers up thru Vietnam was when they were blowing the whistle on some lifer for trying to kill them for personal glory.
With the draft, cowboys like Rummy and Chaney, and Junior and Wolfowicz, could never send the American military into ill advised sand boxes. The SEALs on the other hand were anxious to go. Book deals and Fox News were waiting.
I'll take drafted line infantry over "special operators" any day of the week.
They do the job, they won WWII(the last one we won), and come home. Mostly the only time we heard from drafted soldiers up thru Vietnam was when they were blowing the whistle on some lifer for trying to kill them for personal glory.
With the draft, cowboys like Rummy and Chaney, and Junior and Wolfowicz, could never send the American military into ill advised sand boxes. The SEALs on the other hand were anxious to go. Book deals and Fox News were waiting.
37
This always troubled me. But, it's a trend. Our culture has been feminized. Ray Romano made a fortune being scared of his TV wife. Men have become very chatty.
Just this week a story surfaced about a incident involving two LA Lakers. Steven A. Smith was crying man code violations over a disclosure by one of the other cheating on his finance. But Steven A is by no means the strong silent type.
Then there's Donald Trump with diarrhea of the mouth.
Incredible. At least Delta Force has remained mum.
Just this week a story surfaced about a incident involving two LA Lakers. Steven A. Smith was crying man code violations over a disclosure by one of the other cheating on his finance. But Steven A is by no means the strong silent type.
Then there's Donald Trump with diarrhea of the mouth.
Incredible. At least Delta Force has remained mum.
14
I can't believe your are categorizing lack of self-restraint and discretion as feminine traits.
Is that the way you feel about the women in your life? I feel sorry for them.
Is that the way you feel about the women in your life? I feel sorry for them.
17
We value nothing more than we value the ability to monetize everything.
21
Some SEALs, contending that they have every right to benefit from their experiences in the military, say the publicity has done no harm and divulged few if any classified tactics or techniques.
-----------------------
I don't think that's for the navy SEALs to decide.
-----------------------
I don't think that's for the navy SEALs to decide.
98
I wonder if this phenomenon is reflective of something larger concerning our collective attitude towards the military in this country. My father was a B-17 bombardier during WW II. He didn't talk about it much not because of any quiet professionalism but because just about every other man and some women his age had served in combat also. There were veterans everywhere and while it was admired, it wasn't that big of a deal. I think that now, wanting to avoid a draft or avoid sending out own kids into combat, we make a very big deal out of those who have served, not that they don't deserve commendation but also as a way of saying thanks for going so my kid can go off to Brown.
51
Don't think people with ill intent aren't taking notice or names. Why would you make yourself a target? Ego over duty.
19
I think Lone Survivor was a credit to the Seals; Marcus Luttrell's story as told on film was definitely a heroic tale of... himself, his brothers who died, and the Afghani villagers who protected him.
On the other hand, I met a retired Navy Seal who was a braggart, way out of line, disrespectful of female leadership, narcissistic, thrill seeking, and, in a word, [still] dangerous. And not a millenial.
Seals need to retain ethics and codes of honor for them to remain respected as elite warriors. Elite warriors who are narcissistic, abusive of others, thrill seeking, disrespectful of women in leadership positions...are an embarrassment to a nation.
Stories of solidarity and heroism shared between locals and Seals in regions of combat, are compelling and uplifting. War stories told in a bragging fashion? The idea that a Seal should be more qualified as a political leader? Very, very disappointing.
On the other hand, I met a retired Navy Seal who was a braggart, way out of line, disrespectful of female leadership, narcissistic, thrill seeking, and, in a word, [still] dangerous. And not a millenial.
Seals need to retain ethics and codes of honor for them to remain respected as elite warriors. Elite warriors who are narcissistic, abusive of others, thrill seeking, disrespectful of women in leadership positions...are an embarrassment to a nation.
Stories of solidarity and heroism shared between locals and Seals in regions of combat, are compelling and uplifting. War stories told in a bragging fashion? The idea that a Seal should be more qualified as a political leader? Very, very disappointing.
82
Sole Survivor was the story of a Navy Corpsman who went out with 3 team mates and came back with none.
It was a story of a rescue gone bad. All lost.
And if the movie is correct that they just let that local go without even tying him up its a story of incompetence.
Or more accurate it's a story about how difficult small team mission are and how so often things do not work as planned. I can assure you that even the best make mistakes.
I so love it though when a forum full of people almost none of them would consider doing the job or trying to do the job are so full of advice for the SEALs.
It was a story of a rescue gone bad. All lost.
And if the movie is correct that they just let that local go without even tying him up its a story of incompetence.
Or more accurate it's a story about how difficult small team mission are and how so often things do not work as planned. I can assure you that even the best make mistakes.
I so love it though when a forum full of people almost none of them would consider doing the job or trying to do the job are so full of advice for the SEALs.
So what's the lesson? Thst there are many types of people, not one mold.
1
Maybe the person you met was was pretending to be something he wasn't. There are countless SOF imposters out there who would have you believe they made the grade when all they did was get a tattoo or two.
1
The modern cult of individualism afflicts even the highly disciplined ranks of the SEALs it seems. The desire to cash in wherever a person can regardless of any ethical considerations pervades all levels of society. A more prominent case in point is, of course, Hillary Clinton with her lucrative Wall Street speeches.
10
She was a private citizen on the speaking circuit. Are you saying it's unethical for ex-politicians and ex-government officials to makes speeches for a living? Or that it's unethical for supply and demand to determine the market value of a speech by an ex-politician booked for an event?
2
I just wish I had a dollar for every ex-Navy Seal I've encountered. Seriously. I'd be as rich as Trump.
7
The odds of you meeting one is about the same as meeting an astronaut unless you live next to a base. There are a lot of fakes out there.
Yeah, I think that's Saverino's point. AKA sarcasm.
3
Ryan, are you saying that ex-Navy Seals live on bases? Or next to them?
I know at least three who bought and live on ranches. Not next to bases. In different states.
And on the other hand, there are a lot of bases across the U.S.
I know at least three who bought and live on ranches. Not next to bases. In different states.
And on the other hand, there are a lot of bases across the U.S.
2
I don't get the worship of these guys in their military fatigues. So, they were in the Navy. Big deal. So too, were many thousands of men and women. I don't think these SEAL guys are any better than any other service member. All service members deserve respect. If these SEALs think they deserve something extra for their service, they should think again. I'm sick of them exploiting their service for money. It's disgusting.
136
MsPea, did you serve?
Spec ops , ranger, and recon troops are better trained better motivated and often just plain better than normal troops.
Anyone who has served with them or trained with them knows that to be true.
And their jobs are the kind of jobs most people in uniform or out of uniform could not do or would not considering doing.
Walk in their shoes or try for even a little while and then you might know.
Spec ops , ranger, and recon troops are better trained better motivated and often just plain better than normal troops.
Anyone who has served with them or trained with them knows that to be true.
And their jobs are the kind of jobs most people in uniform or out of uniform could not do or would not considering doing.
Walk in their shoes or try for even a little while and then you might know.
1
You haven't convinced me, and again I ask so what? I'm not impressed that these characters are "better" than any other service member. They just have bigger egos. And, no, I have not been in the service. But, my father was killed in Viet Nam. He was just a normal, every day private in the Army. He had been drafted, and maybe he wasn't as gung-ho as the guys you admire so much. But, he did his job just like those "special ops" guys do, and he ended up just as dead as some of them. I resent that you and other people think my dad's death doesn't mean as much as some SEAL's death. Death in war is what it is. No dead soldier is better than any other. The ones who survive should be grateful, and not grab at the dollars waved in front of them. They are getting rich, while my father and thousands of others don't get even a thank-you.
2
It's all in the marketing; this is just another way to get an undereducated electorate to vote for a politician who in not qualified to do the job.
20
It seems to me that being a true hero embodies being truly humble which probably means not bragging about your heroism.
176
Maybe it has nothing to do with what they say.
Maybe it has to do with being on a small four man team way out in the bush while you track or try to pin down a 10,000 man NVA division that has crossed the DMZ.
BTDT
Your view of a hero has nothing to do with the way those who do the work look at it. Yours is a couch sitting Internet view.
Maybe it has to do with being on a small four man team way out in the bush while you track or try to pin down a 10,000 man NVA division that has crossed the DMZ.
BTDT
Your view of a hero has nothing to do with the way those who do the work look at it. Yours is a couch sitting Internet view.
I am reminded of Sgt. York who after being the most decorated soldier in WWI refused to commercialize his heroics. Feeling it would lessen the sacrifice of those who didn't come home.
230
Actually George Lawson Keene is the most decorated troop of ww1.
And Sgt York did not live in an age of cable news, giant book deals, and the Internet.
And Sgt York did not live in an age of cable news, giant book deals, and the Internet.
1
Recall U.S. President Harry S Truman, who also refused to commericalize his service. Even if it meant living with his mother-in-law, who belittled him with every breath. And not a highly-questionable "charitable" foundation that serves as a hiring hall, via foreign funds.
"All fame is fleeting."
"All fame is fleeting."
Cable, schmable. It is the same old punchline --
"We know who you are, madam. All we are arguing about, is the price."
Non-S.E.A.L. humans have talents, too.
"We know who you are, madam. All we are arguing about, is the price."
Non-S.E.A.L. humans have talents, too.
Notice no mention of "Zero Dark Thirty" or "American Sniper"? Hollywood has been exploiting commandos and special forces since WWII. The Times seems quick to condemn any conservative politician but not Hollywood? Why can't the guys who actually took the risk make some money alongside the actors directors and producers who never too a physical risk and did any public service in their lives? Seems like the American Way.
1
Lt. Forrest S. Crowell is so right that "incentivizing narcissistic and profit-oriented behavior" in this way is damaging to the SEALS effectiveness and undermines "civil-military relations." A failure of values where they are supposed to be paramount. In addition, expand the exposure too much and the "aura" will be dissipated. I did consider that people outgh to be able to write and speak about their military experiences. SO maybe this is in of those areas where free speech is theirs to use ( unless revealing matters that are to be kept secret) but it is theirs to apply discretion. Lots of folks don't - thinking about Ollie North's use of his Iran Contra "exploits" for profit and fame.
61
Bob, that is the same reason I am so proud of how quiet and below the publicity line the MARSOC and Force and Bn Reconnaissance Marines have stayed.
Considering the yacking that every new Marine boot who graduates boot camp is prone to do-------you would have expected otherwise maybe.
Quite professionals. And this many Americans have never heard of them. Our enemy has.
S/F
Doc
Considering the yacking that every new Marine boot who graduates boot camp is prone to do-------you would have expected otherwise maybe.
Quite professionals. And this many Americans have never heard of them. Our enemy has.
S/F
Doc
39
If the reported facts are true, then what we see here is another example of the "fetish of the commodity." This is a Marxist term which will no doubt receive ample explication and coverage in the NYT.
5
I am sickened by the inability of elite service members who cannot live up to the oaths they have taken and exaggerate their own accomplishments. It's the Donald Trump self-aggrandizement model, and it's truly pathetic.
241
James, you read my mind. While reading the article I thought - these SEAL guys cashing in on their experiences are so "Trumpy". And it IS sickening; these elite service members take oaths and break them (sound familiar? DJT & the RNC...) just to make a couple of bucks.
Perhaps in the future, these elite service members will have to sign NDA's (or some sort of document), like I did as a regular civilian when I worked at a couple of large (and ultimately shameful) corporations. I didn't cash in with a book or blog or movie deal. Looking back, I probably should have: "Bad Mortgages and Bankruptcy: Temping In The Financial Sector" has a catchy ring to it, right?
Perhaps in the future, these elite service members will have to sign NDA's (or some sort of document), like I did as a regular civilian when I worked at a couple of large (and ultimately shameful) corporations. I didn't cash in with a book or blog or movie deal. Looking back, I probably should have: "Bad Mortgages and Bankruptcy: Temping In The Financial Sector" has a catchy ring to it, right?
1
I prefer books about Nam, and there's plenty of them!
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Across the boards, the SEAL community needs to take a public stand.
The SEALS were, in uniform and out, until maybe "Jesse Ventura" and his appropriation of the US Navy Seal brand in his self-promotion - - low key, professionals, neither seen nor heard.
Now...
"SEAL-dom" is incorporated in Fox News presenters, personal book deals, movies and self-promotion on scale - - SEALS knocking each other down to get book-deals, or to claim whose shot actually killed Osama bin Liner....
All this is the antitheisis of "quiet professionals". It's a shame for such a noble and honorable organization and team of people who have done so much good.
No more, "Extreme Ownership" book deals, no more Fox News commentators with "Former Navy SEAL", no more self-promoting books. Do, don't say.
Semper Fi, from the men's dept. of the Department of the Navy.
The SEALS were, in uniform and out, until maybe "Jesse Ventura" and his appropriation of the US Navy Seal brand in his self-promotion - - low key, professionals, neither seen nor heard.
Now...
"SEAL-dom" is incorporated in Fox News presenters, personal book deals, movies and self-promotion on scale - - SEALS knocking each other down to get book-deals, or to claim whose shot actually killed Osama bin Liner....
All this is the antitheisis of "quiet professionals". It's a shame for such a noble and honorable organization and team of people who have done so much good.
No more, "Extreme Ownership" book deals, no more Fox News commentators with "Former Navy SEAL", no more self-promoting books. Do, don't say.
Semper Fi, from the men's dept. of the Department of the Navy.
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Mens dept?
What was your mos? That will determine a lot.
Most Marines no longer work in the Men's Dept :-) I would bet you did not as well.
MOS?
What was your mos? That will determine a lot.
Most Marines no longer work in the Men's Dept :-) I would bet you did not as well.
MOS?
1
What about Richard Marcinko back in the late 80s / early 90s with books like "Rogue Warrior"? These Seal dudes have been milking people's sordid interests in the US State's secret tax-payer funded death squads since forever.
2111 weapons 26th Marines
U.S. Government/military knows Hollywood sends a sweet message to promote children to join military through movie viewing and it uses the power and influence; it has no problem with bloody, violent war video games children view, much to my chagrin. Then we have mentally ill individuals who have a propensity to crime. Hmmm. What does the government do about the violence in these games? Nada. What should government do about military members profiting from their service experience? Nada.
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The Navy has failed to demonstrate professional leadership in constraining this perversion of the Seal’s tradition of discretion. The seemingly endless revelations by Navy Seals have to a degree cheapened their previous reputation that had been held in high regard and has perhaps endangered those presently on active duty. However, considering that the Navy has an Admiral without a security clearance presently in charge of Naval Intelligence, what can you expect?
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Wow...I watched this article's referenced video made by other Seals. This guy seems to tell more war stories every day than most of my buddies have in their lifetimes...and we're now in our early 70s. No wonder his colleagues are disgusted. If Courts Martial was possible retroactively, he'd probably qualify. But relatively, I guess he's still a war hero compared to any of the tough-guy chicken hawk presidential candidates we've seen this year (except Jim Webb of course, who is a legit patriot and war hero.)
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I feel the same way about religion. I remember growing up in New England when Tammy Faye's crying on TV was only for southern evangelicals, and the various Protestant sects had their services and did their service without fanfare.
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This is the society we live in. Everyone is trying to cash in.
The rot started with ex-SAS Andy McNabb with his book "Bravo Two Zero" - about an SAS Scud missile killing operation which went wrong during the first Gulf War.
You do wish that these guys would just remain silent. In fact I am very surprised that there does not appear to be a law which requires ex special forces to keep silent regarding military operations.
The rot started with ex-SAS Andy McNabb with his book "Bravo Two Zero" - about an SAS Scud missile killing operation which went wrong during the first Gulf War.
You do wish that these guys would just remain silent. In fact I am very surprised that there does not appear to be a law which requires ex special forces to keep silent regarding military operations.
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Andy Mcnabb is a pseudonym,just like Chris Ryan who were both on the Bravo Two Zero mission. Since the SAS was formed during the 2nd world war there has only been a handful of former members writing about their time in the SAS or becoming fiction writers. Once they have gone down this path then they are effectively blackballed and persona non grata, they are despised by the regiment which explains why so few have ever decided to publicise their past.
1
When I think about all the soldiers we have sent into combat - those who never made it home, those who came back and took care of their families, and those who came back and needed to be cared for - I find these ego-trips really offensive.
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Feelings are so important.
Although if you had showed up and took a spec ops indoc even if you did not pass that might carry more weight.
I have never seen so many people with no desire to serve in the military , no desire to go combat arms, no desire to go the small team route , that are so worried about what these guys say.
Although if you had showed up and took a spec ops indoc even if you did not pass that might carry more weight.
I have never seen so many people with no desire to serve in the military , no desire to go combat arms, no desire to go the small team route , that are so worried about what these guys say.
They should have opened combat roles to women sooner. Maybe then I could have.
9
I find it offensive that the effete who never served judge those who did.
1
Hard earned symbol is correct with all the adulation that goes with name. But also, imitation is the greatest indication of reverence for the symbol. What is being irksome by some is simply question of semantics. The Seals will always stand alone and will be the Apex in the hierarchy of military strata.
1
Agree with RioConcho, stay professional like the Mossad!
3
They should stay professionals, in AND out of service, like the Mossad.
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It is terrific that American Nationalism produces strapping, intellegent young men willing and happy to become killers, trained assassins. That willingness includes a mercenary attitude to follower orders without consideration or question in total obedience. America, Americans are lucky that way. Soon however, Seals might become obsolete as mechanical drones the exact size of a cartridge will soon be able to missle-like assassinate targets like misquotes at dusk. These guys will soon have to learn more demanding skills to contribute to society.
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Special Operations soldiers are not trained to follow orders without question, nor do they desire to become "assassins." Assassinations are not in the mission criteria of any Special Operations (SO) unit, despite what Hollywood portrays. Teaching ethics classes to foreign military soldiers about when and how they can disregard illegal orders is a regular part of our curriculum. I have a 10-yr career in this field and have worked with SO from every branch. We are prized for our ability to think on our feet. You would know these things if you'd read a single book on the subject. Your comment marginalizes the sacrifices and willingness to serve that these men have. We desire to be part of a warrior brotherhood that defends the values we believe in. The disappointing fact that your ignorance-loaded comment is a "NYT pick" only goes to show that this kind of insulting passive-aggressive bias against the military is deeply imbedded in left-leaning media and its audience. The right-leaning media's jingoism is no better, but at least they make a sincere attempt to understand their warriors.
6
Chasing around an illiterate opium farmer in Afghanistan isn't doing a thing to keep me or my liberties safe. You and your blow hard friends at Fox News can continue to perpetuate this myth that you guys are actually doing something worth fighting for- The real war is being fought here in our courts fighting for fair wages, equal pay, voting rights, education and health care. How's that for insulting passive-aggressive bias?
11
The entire military campaign in Afghanistan is based around opium farmers? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
I suppose the continued terrorist attacks all over the world (far more than just Europe and America) will just cease if we leave AQ and ISIS alone, right? Leave them alone to spread extremism and run their training camps?
I'm not a "Fox News" fan and gave no indication of supporting them so you clearly have no idea what kind of people work in the military. There are people from all sides of the political spectrum with a wide range of views. Work out your anger issues elsewhere.
I suppose the continued terrorist attacks all over the world (far more than just Europe and America) will just cease if we leave AQ and ISIS alone, right? Leave them alone to spread extremism and run their training camps?
I'm not a "Fox News" fan and gave no indication of supporting them so you clearly have no idea what kind of people work in the military. There are people from all sides of the political spectrum with a wide range of views. Work out your anger issues elsewhere.
5
Given the number of movies and books, the market should be saturated with SEAL by now-- until the next big mission. Of course we're still making WWII movies, too.
Incredible soldiers, as all out Special Forces are.
Incredible soldiers, as all out Special Forces are.
3
I knew a Seal, the last thing I would ever have called him is a braggart. I wonder if Ike would approve of our men of valor criticizing a sitting president for monetary gain. On one hand I don't mind these guys trying to make a living, but there has to be a limit. Stay honorable.
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Agreed
I agree I think they need to look in the mirror and ask themselves is this the honorable thing to do, would I want children a hundred years from now reading about it,would you be proud of it. If not then you shut up, I do not see any possible way though that making comments about politics in our country is an honorable thing for a military man/woman to do.
2
Harry - "I wonder if Ike would approve of our men of valor criticizing a sitting president for monetary gain."
He may not have liked it but he certainly wouldn't want them muzzled. He may have even looked into the criticism and asked himself why.
He may not have liked it but he certainly wouldn't want them muzzled. He may have even looked into the criticism and asked himself why.
I wish people'd figure out that there are more important things than turning a buck and get over the notion that being very, very good at one thing makes them geniuses at everything, but I din't see it happening any time soon.
Another case in point: Ben Carson.
Another case in point: Ben Carson.
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I told that to very thing to my electric company. They laughed.
1
well said, 'engineers' (more like programmers) in the bay area need to be told that too
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@Robert
Carson should simply be revered, but I know that's not your point.
Carson should simply be revered, but I know that's not your point.
1
Our beloved millennials display and document their entire lives on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. You expect the ones who join the special forces to keep secrets? Ain't gonna happen- Social media has corrupted these kids and narcissism is rampant.
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Robert O'Neil is 39 years old....he is hardly a millennial.
7
Eric Greitens, the man at the center of this article, was born in 1974. Fairly certain that doesn't qualify him as a "millennial," but thanks for turning this completely unrelated story into another excuse to lazily scapegoat and entire generation for all the world's ills.
I'd suggest cutting out the middle man and just commenting "get off my lawn!" on future articles.
I'd suggest cutting out the middle man and just commenting "get off my lawn!" on future articles.
9
I know it is popular to bash millennials for some reason, but you do realize none of the people mentioned in the article are, in fact, millennials.
The people mentioned I could find ages for:
Eric Greitens, born 1974 (41)
Matt Bissonnette, born 1976 (40)
Brandon Webb, born 1974 (42)
Marcus Luttrell, born 1975 (40)
Robert O'Neill, born 1976 (39)
Kristin Beck, born 1966 (49)
None of them are millennials.
The people mentioned I could find ages for:
Eric Greitens, born 1974 (41)
Matt Bissonnette, born 1976 (40)
Brandon Webb, born 1974 (42)
Marcus Luttrell, born 1975 (40)
Robert O'Neill, born 1976 (39)
Kristin Beck, born 1966 (49)
None of them are millennials.
11
I love reading about the exploits of these extraordinary real-life heroes. And it's hard to fault those who seek recognition and gain from their exploits. As long as a former SEAL is no longer active duty and does not reveal classified technology or techniques, I don't see how publishing can be forbidden.
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I'm glad that Army special operations members have done far less to draw attention to themselves. I'm proud we've done a better job of following the "Quiet Professionals" motto.
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Thank you
1
They have done far less to draw attention to themselves because they are not the first choice of JSOC.
Who's we?