Europe needs to make a decision - it can ONLY continue to be Europe if its nor scared to bluntly use military force to kick out the millions of Muslims it let in without bothering to think about the consequences. Rapes and violent crimes have soared since the migrants were let in, and Europe's economy is on the point of ruin supporting them. In the alternative, Europe will soon be just another violence ridden Third World Continent absent European will to protect European culture. And, forget about the US getting involved.
Frankly, there would be neither ISIS nor Assad in Syria and parts of Iraq if the MILLIONS of Syrian and Iraqi men who ran from battle had instead stood their ground, and fought the battle they need to fight to make their country a better place. Since when have fighting age men without apparently the courage to fight been "refugees"? What Europe, Jordan and Turkey need to do is continue to shelter the women and non-fighting age children from the Syrian and Iraqi scenes of battle; and promptly, using whatever military force necessary, deport all the fighting age "refugee" men who ran from battle go back and fight Assad and ISIS till they are history in the area. Then, without giving the women and children a permanent right to stay in the countries they flooded with a migrant invasion, send the women and children back to join the males, once the males have done their job and fought the battle they have so far been apparently terrified to fight.
Frankly, there would be neither ISIS nor Assad in Syria and parts of Iraq if the MILLIONS of Syrian and Iraqi men who ran from battle had instead stood their ground, and fought the battle they need to fight to make their country a better place. Since when have fighting age men without apparently the courage to fight been "refugees"? What Europe, Jordan and Turkey need to do is continue to shelter the women and non-fighting age children from the Syrian and Iraqi scenes of battle; and promptly, using whatever military force necessary, deport all the fighting age "refugee" men who ran from battle go back and fight Assad and ISIS till they are history in the area. Then, without giving the women and children a permanent right to stay in the countries they flooded with a migrant invasion, send the women and children back to join the males, once the males have done their job and fought the battle they have so far been apparently terrified to fight.
6
The Assad red line that wasn't a red line. The Iran deal that has left Israel dangerously exposed and won't prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. The cave-ins to Putin. The considerable dilly-dallying over ISIS and terror. The U.S. has already rented space on Venus and increasingly appears to be taking up permanent residence there.
2
Regarding Venus and Mars, I think this is the leading issue driving instability in world:
1. There are 5 billion people in the world
2. There are 3 billion people would like to have a nice job, raise a family, be part of a community, take care of their parents, etc.
2. Our current world economy produces 1.2 billion jobs
3. We are short 1.8 billion jobs worldwide
This is according to Jim Clifton's book “The Coming Jobs War"
Given we are short 1.8 billion jobs, it is inevitable there will be conflict. Given the current state of political discourse, thought and practice, I do not see how this ends well. Given the magnitude of this jobs gap and our apparent blindness to this economic reality, Mars is going to have field day. Given "ancient habits" for war, oppression, privileged greed, America needs to lead the charge and not be swept away by it.
Feel the Bern
1. There are 5 billion people in the world
2. There are 3 billion people would like to have a nice job, raise a family, be part of a community, take care of their parents, etc.
2. Our current world economy produces 1.2 billion jobs
3. We are short 1.8 billion jobs worldwide
This is according to Jim Clifton's book “The Coming Jobs War"
Given we are short 1.8 billion jobs, it is inevitable there will be conflict. Given the current state of political discourse, thought and practice, I do not see how this ends well. Given the magnitude of this jobs gap and our apparent blindness to this economic reality, Mars is going to have field day. Given "ancient habits" for war, oppression, privileged greed, America needs to lead the charge and not be swept away by it.
Feel the Bern
6
I would like to know how all our wars, either direct or indirect, have benefited the American people. We have lost thousands of our soldiers, trillions in taxpayer dollars, our prestige, our credibility, and we have created more terrorists that wish us harm. Tell us please, what is the benefit to Americans? As far as I am concerned, the agendas of the Kagans of the world should be dismissed.
Perhaps the American people are just beginning to think more for themselves and will not just follow blindly the manipulation of the opinionators in the media.
Perhaps the American people are just beginning to think more for themselves and will not just follow blindly the manipulation of the opinionators in the media.
28
It is a general perception that Bush was a war monger, and his policies and actions destroyed the world. On the other hand, Obama is a peace lover, and his policies and actions saved the world from destructions created by Bush. But what is the realty! Obama toppled Gadhafi and left Libya with no government. Because of his premature withdrawal of American army from Iraq, ISIS took over a portion of the Iraq and American army is going back. He failed to improve the condition in Afghanistan in any real way even though more American soldiers were sent there. The whole Middle East, Europe and Africa are under fire. Look at Syria, half a million is already dead and half of the country is already out or out of their homes, and there is no end in sight. ISIS is spreading to everywhere. Israeli-Palestinian conflict is worse than before, relations with Russia, china and European and Arab countries are worse today.
From the above it is clear that Obama’s military actions were not that different from Bush’s, but his “blame the Bush” mentality has made the situation worse almost everywhere.
From the above it is clear that Obama’s military actions were not that different from Bush’s, but his “blame the Bush” mentality has made the situation worse almost everywhere.
6
So what? Douthat is the weakest journalist in the Time's roster. Why do they keep him? To show they can have a token Republican boob on board? Replace him with someone who at least has real brains, like George Will. What a pathetic waste of space.
10
Does anybody think we would have ISIS and the refugee crisis if we had not invaded Iraq and implemented De-Ba'athification?
The Middle East and Europe will be paying the price for a generation or more while Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Perle, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Feith and all the right-wing think tank neocons pay no price at all.
And remember when testifying in front of Congress in 2002, Netanyahu claimed that Iraq’s nonexistent nuclear program was in fact so advanced that the country was now operating “centrifuges the size of washing machines.”
Netanyahu said , "If you take out Saddam’s regime, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region."
The Middle East and Europe will be paying the price for a generation or more while Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Perle, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Feith and all the right-wing think tank neocons pay no price at all.
And remember when testifying in front of Congress in 2002, Netanyahu claimed that Iraq’s nonexistent nuclear program was in fact so advanced that the country was now operating “centrifuges the size of washing machines.”
Netanyahu said , "If you take out Saddam’s regime, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region."
44
Oh, come one, Ross. Bernie Sanders a socialist?
That's so 20th century!
That's so 20th century!
15
Right-wing extremists have been common in Western Europe since the turn of the 20th century. Much of the Euro controversy is a result of an unprecedented political and economic merger of more than 20 disparate countries. Add to the growing pains the almost sudden influx of over a million refugees fleeing conflicts that have a disastrous direct causation from poorly considered and poorly implemented US policy. The UK still hasn't gotten over the reality that they are mere shadow of their former glory. The perfect storm has now exploded.
8
Mr. Douthat makes the common error of assuming that all trends - foreign policy as well as cultural - continue without change. It is certainly true that there currently is something of a backlash in the US against interventionism. That backlash is, to some degree, a reflection of the ebbs and flows of American foreign policy since World War I. On one hand you have the John McCains whose rhetoric sounds as if all young men are nothing more than fodder for angry old white men who should happily go to die for their bitterness. One the other, you have the Bernie Sanders who, facing increasing irrelevance in the world, changes political labels and recrafts his isolationism in order to gain votes from youth who have been reared with the post-Reagan pessimism of the McConnell/Ryan era. Douthat, an apologist for the negativity of the GOP, can only attempt to explain away the bankruptcy his party has bequeathed to America.
17
It's easy for pundits and politicians to talk about intervention to "fix" other countries or to "defend ourselves" against countries and forces that either have no intention of attacking us (Russia) or are incapable of inflicting significant damage (the Daesh) on us. After all, it's other people's children dying for these causes and, as far as the pundits and politicians are concerned, just some irrelevant foreigners who are dying as a consequence of the interventions that destabilized the region from Libya to Afghanistan.
I'd love to see a Constitutional amendment that absolutely forbade a president to send combat or "advisory" troops overseas without a 2/3 vote of both the House and Senate. Furthermore, such a vote would trigger an immediate draft, with the children and grandchildren of the president, the Cabinet, and both houses of Congress going first. That would allow for a response to real threats (as in World War II, when most members of Congress had children or grandchildren in the armed forces, and 3 of FDR's sons were in the military) but would serve as a damper on cynical and damaging interventions.
Would Hillary Clinton have voted for the Iraq War Resolution if it had meant that Chelsea would be headed for boot camp the following week? Would George W. Bush have considered invading Iraq if he knew that he might be sending Jenna and Barbara into combat?
I'd love to see a Constitutional amendment that absolutely forbade a president to send combat or "advisory" troops overseas without a 2/3 vote of both the House and Senate. Furthermore, such a vote would trigger an immediate draft, with the children and grandchildren of the president, the Cabinet, and both houses of Congress going first. That would allow for a response to real threats (as in World War II, when most members of Congress had children or grandchildren in the armed forces, and 3 of FDR's sons were in the military) but would serve as a damper on cynical and damaging interventions.
Would Hillary Clinton have voted for the Iraq War Resolution if it had meant that Chelsea would be headed for boot camp the following week? Would George W. Bush have considered invading Iraq if he knew that he might be sending Jenna and Barbara into combat?
44
Fed up with wars, in the 1950s European leaders decided that a transnational union was the answer to the recurring hostilities. The problem with this approach was and as we now see, is, is that they did not ask the citizens. Nobody asked the French if they wanted to be only 30, 40 or 50% French and the rest European. The same for the English (abandon lots of a 1000 year traditions?), Italians and others. What we are witnessing is a collapse of this idea under the weight of a "we no best" bureaucracy. The challenge? Restore a system where nation states can cooperate economically without giving up their individual identities. Maybe "Brexit" will be a wake up call.
9
There's a simpler read...
After having followed American into a war of choice in the Middle East that was seriously bungled and whose protracted occupation only ripped the wallpaper off the creaky but serviceable power structures created by the post-WWI accords allowing jihadists and anti-colonialists to find new followers, Europe is aghast at how close that powerful nation is to electing a 'no nothing' as its commander-in-chief. Europeans come, finally, to the conclusion that it is tough to go it alone but nowhere near as dangerous as letting us lead.
After having followed American into a war of choice in the Middle East that was seriously bungled and whose protracted occupation only ripped the wallpaper off the creaky but serviceable power structures created by the post-WWI accords allowing jihadists and anti-colonialists to find new followers, Europe is aghast at how close that powerful nation is to electing a 'no nothing' as its commander-in-chief. Europeans come, finally, to the conclusion that it is tough to go it alone but nowhere near as dangerous as letting us lead.
45
The new normal for USA...should be ...not most powerful...to ....one of
the most powerful nations...
The USA...is PART....of the global world economy nowadays...and that
is the new norm...
Just an adjustment from post WWII....and that is what needs to become
a reality...
We are out of many....one with the entire world....now.
the most powerful nations...
The USA...is PART....of the global world economy nowadays...and that
is the new norm...
Just an adjustment from post WWII....and that is what needs to become
a reality...
We are out of many....one with the entire world....now.
5
Douthat waxes Orwellian in this oblique call to the return of knee-jerk U.S. militarism. The last thing this country needs - as the president recognizes -is a resurgence of neocon fantasy.
10
Hello Ross,
I think we're all looking for a mental map to help make sense of this world. A narrative a metaphor...anything. Where aren't our institutions stressed? Who isn't looking over their shoulder at the next "disruption" in technology, politics, or the natural world. Mars, Venus, Dark Energy, or Black Hole pick your favorite but does it really matter?
Maginot Line, Mutually Assured, Blitzkrieg, Cybor, Sleeper Cell, Super Power, Aysymetrical, The Long Game...God is on our side... Isn't their always a number two looking to be number one...or a number two that just want's to be left alone...
We humans think we're pretty crafty...but a hot summer is coming...Seems like we're all going to be very thirsty soon.
I think we're all looking for a mental map to help make sense of this world. A narrative a metaphor...anything. Where aren't our institutions stressed? Who isn't looking over their shoulder at the next "disruption" in technology, politics, or the natural world. Mars, Venus, Dark Energy, or Black Hole pick your favorite but does it really matter?
Maginot Line, Mutually Assured, Blitzkrieg, Cybor, Sleeper Cell, Super Power, Aysymetrical, The Long Game...God is on our side... Isn't their always a number two looking to be number one...or a number two that just want's to be left alone...
We humans think we're pretty crafty...but a hot summer is coming...Seems like we're all going to be very thirsty soon.
2
I wish Eurologists would identify and address the key sources of the problem that ails the continent. Ala, cardiologists start by asking patients to stop dependence on smoking. Everything comes later.
The biggest disease in France, Germany, Holland (and others) is dependence on foreign labor. Kinda like reverse colonialism: "We are out of there, so come here and do everything we don't want to do. And when you are done doing that, go fester in a ghetto that will contain your dissatisfaction, despair, anger, frustration, and make you receptive to nihilistic ideologies."
Eurologists are quick to bloviate as if the North African ghettos materialized out of nowhere as a result of runaway immigration over which the countries had no control.
What rot.
The desire to seek advantages of colonialism and slavery (which would hold the notion of assimilation as laughably naive), the utter indifference to immigrants in ghettos - until they turn into nihilistic, arson mongering, violent people - lies at the root of the problem. This is what happens when a people become post-religious, post-patriotic, smug in their notions of cultural relativism and the nanny state.
No European cared when Jihadist youth were going off to Afghanistan, Iraq, and other basket cases to fight. Did they think it had no consequences back home? Don't blame Islam for providing the spark when you created the powder keg and kindling.
Kalidan
The biggest disease in France, Germany, Holland (and others) is dependence on foreign labor. Kinda like reverse colonialism: "We are out of there, so come here and do everything we don't want to do. And when you are done doing that, go fester in a ghetto that will contain your dissatisfaction, despair, anger, frustration, and make you receptive to nihilistic ideologies."
Eurologists are quick to bloviate as if the North African ghettos materialized out of nowhere as a result of runaway immigration over which the countries had no control.
What rot.
The desire to seek advantages of colonialism and slavery (which would hold the notion of assimilation as laughably naive), the utter indifference to immigrants in ghettos - until they turn into nihilistic, arson mongering, violent people - lies at the root of the problem. This is what happens when a people become post-religious, post-patriotic, smug in their notions of cultural relativism and the nanny state.
No European cared when Jihadist youth were going off to Afghanistan, Iraq, and other basket cases to fight. Did they think it had no consequences back home? Don't blame Islam for providing the spark when you created the powder keg and kindling.
Kalidan
7
Ross, I'm a Vietnam era vet. Please refresh my memory as to why you never served. Wasn't it bone spurs or something, or was that somebody else?
19
History's vacation from Europe is ending. Let the killing begin.
4
People understand that Europe, Japan, and Korea have received a free ride. They also know that many people in these countries resent the U.S. Their resentment may be or may be not justified, but it exists. If you have a whiny, ungrateful, relative who you help, you are likely to say, no more, particularly if you are having your own problems. That is what is happening. People know the U.S. has internal issues, and they believe they get little payback from their foreign military investments. So, they turn inward.
9
Stimulating piece, Ross. It would be good if we could steer between liberal hawkishness, the position of Kagan, and the neo-isolationism of Trump and Sanders. This points to a modest realism, which accepts the limitations of our power and what we can do and intervenes wisely and only when our security interests are at stake.
3
What a curious idea to revive Kagan's stupid pronouncement: apart from the implied insult on the lack of European "manhood", may we recall that it was offered during the preliminaries of the Iraq fiasco ? And no, you wouldn't find any more European leaders willing to support the Cheney/Bush war now than then (except the Brits, I am afraid, not sure that Cameron would do any better than Blair on this one). The European attitude has changed because the situation has.
3
Empires topple from being over extended.
Then bankrupted from stupid adventures in foreign lands.
Seems some guy we backed in Afghan. later flew some planes into our city.
His stated attempt was to draw us into a war and bankrupt us.
Dang if we didn't do just that.
Think we've learned from all these failed adventures, nation buildings and coups? Nope! Look who is leading the POTUS race. smh...
Get! Out! and Vote!
#NotMeUs
Go Bernie!
Then bankrupted from stupid adventures in foreign lands.
Seems some guy we backed in Afghan. later flew some planes into our city.
His stated attempt was to draw us into a war and bankrupt us.
Dang if we didn't do just that.
Think we've learned from all these failed adventures, nation buildings and coups? Nope! Look who is leading the POTUS race. smh...
Get! Out! and Vote!
#NotMeUs
Go Bernie!
14
The differences between the United States and Europe may be as different as Mars and Venus, but as Kagan concludes….
“If Americans were to decide that Europe was no more than an irritating irrelevancy, would American society gradually become unmoored from what we now call ‘the West’? It is not a risk to be taken lightly, on either side of the Atlantic.”
After all, we’re both part of the same solar system, aren't we?
“If Americans were to decide that Europe was no more than an irritating irrelevancy, would American society gradually become unmoored from what we now call ‘the West’? It is not a risk to be taken lightly, on either side of the Atlantic.”
After all, we’re both part of the same solar system, aren't we?
2
If his column must appear, Ross should stick to writing about religion in politics.
9
Kagan was 100% wrong during the Iraq War, and has apparently learned nothing since then. As such, he is the perfect "international affairs expert" to Douthat (and even worse, Ms. Clinton).
10
Ross you might want to leave this kind of thing to Dowd. The Times might want to consider free agency to restore some punch and power of its opinion section. The old team is starting to look a bit past their primes, worn down by a very challenging election season, confused by rapidly shifting world. At times like this you would think the opinions expressed in these columns would be arrayed across a broad spectrum of thought. Instead, the opinions of most of your writers remain bunched around the safe center. Here's a thought, why not find some new voices that actually get out of the bubble a bit and breathe some of the same air that regular Americans do. Nothing personal, Ross, but you and Brooks and Krugman should rent an old Winnebago and take an 8,000 mile loop across the country staying in cheap hotels and camp grounds. It might help us all.
18
What people are starting to notice is that these are wealthy countries, and they are also are rivals in trade. If they had to pay to protect themselves, than our goods would be more competitive, and theirs less competitive. In rivalries like GE vs. Siemens, or Boeing vs. Airbus, why should we put ourselves at a disadvantage? Japan and Korea have made a lot of money selling goods to us, haven't they? Why don't they use this money to provide their own defense?
16
The Western Hemisphere's floating continents are more like Africa than Europe. We were born in chains as colonies of European powers, and this has made us what I would call "cautiously idealistic". Our strength lies in our never forgetting who we once were; Europe's strength must align, in that regard, with ours. Africa holds the key to unlocking our continued combined strengths. Its present battles must be won by the might of the West, which owes to it its existence.
If Europe thinks they might want us to fly our guys over there so they can shed American blood for Europe in four or five years, they could show it now, by dialing back the scorn, ridicule and rudeness. They could even show a little appreciation. They could acknowledge how much our working classes have had to sacrifice, in blood and treasure, so they could have free trade, and open borders and socialist government handouts. They could be halfway supportive of our efforts to keep the Middle East's only developed Western country in existence.
They won't, of course. Europe is Europe. They'll sit around in their cafes, criticizing and denigrating and cursing about America until the very day they show up in DC begging us to come save them again.
They won't, of course. Europe is Europe. They'll sit around in their cafes, criticizing and denigrating and cursing about America until the very day they show up in DC begging us to come save them again.
9
Woofy,
The former USSR might disagree with you about saving/winning.
The former USSR might disagree with you about saving/winning.
4
This analysis is based on a traditional understanding of geopolitics. However, the threats may be different very soon. The NYT last week reorted a very fast melting of the antarctic ice shield. Rapid climate change will have dramatic consequences for every inhabitant of planet. This rises a new ethical and political questions: What to do with the many millions who will be displaced?
Europe may alrady feel the climate change in Africa as drought is one cause of the refugee crisis. What will happen with 40 million Egyptians if the Nile delta is lost to the sea? Scientists forcast that Mexico and the US sunbelt will be a desert in a few decades. How will the USA and Canada deal with the refugees? And China, India and Pakistan may well end up in a nuclear war for water.
Martian or Venusian responses? Forget it! The new "enemy" will be the millions of desperate unarmed refugees who try to climb over the fences and walls at our borders.
Europe may alrady feel the climate change in Africa as drought is one cause of the refugee crisis. What will happen with 40 million Egyptians if the Nile delta is lost to the sea? Scientists forcast that Mexico and the US sunbelt will be a desert in a few decades. How will the USA and Canada deal with the refugees? And China, India and Pakistan may well end up in a nuclear war for water.
Martian or Venusian responses? Forget it! The new "enemy" will be the millions of desperate unarmed refugees who try to climb over the fences and walls at our borders.
18
No, only Democrats will feel the effects of climate change. Republicans will escape it. This will result in the rebirth of the GOP as millions join it to escape global warming.
Seriously, this writer should be commended for writing about the real problem that will render all our current preoccupations minuscule.
Seriously, this writer should be commended for writing about the real problem that will render all our current preoccupations minuscule.
3
A significant difference in the world today is that the US middle class simply has been drained to exhaustion and cannot afford to fund (either people of dollars) the ideal of American interventionism. This also explains alot of the anger that nourishes the Trump candidacy. Another tax break for the wealthy, another foreign adventure and more middle class Americans slide towards poverty.
23
In a recent opinion poll of Harvard students, 60% of them stated they approved of putting boots on the ground to defeat ISIS. Yet when asked also in that poll only 48% of them stated they would be willing to serve in the volunteer armed forces and put themselves in harm's way to defeat ISIS. That poll really shows how Americans really feel about war, especially, our future political elites who make our foreign policy, as represented by students from Harvard from which Robert Kagan graduated with an MPP degree from Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. So they love putting boots on the ground as long as they don't have to wear those boots.
In the biography on Kagan at Wikipedia, he is noted as " a specialist in the history of the Peloponnesian War." Here is what Thucycides, the ancient Greek author of that classic book, stated about integrity as a public intellectual; "For it is impossible for a man to put forward fair and honest views about our affairs if he has not, like everyone else, children whose lives may be at stake."
Troops from the working class, who fought in Afghanistan and Iraq represent around 1% of the U.S. population, while the remaining 99% of their fellow citizens, such as those students at Harvard and Kagan, can avoid the pain and sacrifice which is the tragedy of war.
It's easy to talk the talk as Douthat and Kagan have about war. But as a Vietnam veteran, to walk the walk separates the men from the boys. I think Douthat and Kagan are from Pluto.
In the biography on Kagan at Wikipedia, he is noted as " a specialist in the history of the Peloponnesian War." Here is what Thucycides, the ancient Greek author of that classic book, stated about integrity as a public intellectual; "For it is impossible for a man to put forward fair and honest views about our affairs if he has not, like everyone else, children whose lives may be at stake."
Troops from the working class, who fought in Afghanistan and Iraq represent around 1% of the U.S. population, while the remaining 99% of their fellow citizens, such as those students at Harvard and Kagan, can avoid the pain and sacrifice which is the tragedy of war.
It's easy to talk the talk as Douthat and Kagan have about war. But as a Vietnam veteran, to walk the walk separates the men from the boys. I think Douthat and Kagan are from Pluto.
159
You may very well have put your finger on why the elites that are doing so poorly this year. We have had 30 straight years of the Yale- Harvard crowd; Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama. Hillary or Cruz will extend that to 34 maybe 38 years. Beside 1600 Pennsylvania Ave the other address the Yale - Harvard cohort has controlled is Wall Street.
6
I think that your comment is absolutely correct. When I was young, every young male had a "military obligation". If there was a war, every young male, in theory, had an equal obligation to die. The Vietnam war ,and the opposition to what many people saw as a foolish war, and one in which our country was not threatened in an existential way, changed all of that. We should not have a system of government where the elite have the ability to send young men to die and neither they nor their children have such a risk. If we have a military, all citizens should have a "military obligation". Perhaps their might be a hesitance in the bravado shown by many politicians if they were part of the killing machine of war and could see the human and cultural destruction which many now so blithely do not consider.
9
Good point, George. Maybe we should bring back the draft...Harvard students certainly protested the Vietnam War, a war in which they were eligible to serve.
And as for the war in Iraq, I remember being among the throng in Washington, D.C., prior to its start, taking part in the largest peace protest ever - a worldwide event. W.'s response, which made no sense (as was often the case, it seems, looking back), was "I don't pay attention to focus groups."
And as for the war in Iraq, I remember being among the throng in Washington, D.C., prior to its start, taking part in the largest peace protest ever - a worldwide event. W.'s response, which made no sense (as was often the case, it seems, looking back), was "I don't pay attention to focus groups."
7
It is hard to believe that "The European elite still believes in the Kantian dream of perpetual peace, " as the article states, given the recent development in Paris and Brussels, and the likelihood that there is a festering problem within with the very real possibility of more to come. This is completely aside from very real threats from Putin's Russia and potential threats from Iran, North Korea and China, and the list goes on.
The US, on the other hand, under Obama has started to question whether it should continue to play a leadership role or "lead from behind," whatever that means. Trump has amplified that by suggesting that the US reevaluate its role in NATO, consider whether Japan and South Korea should have nuclear arms, scrap or renegotiate some major trade agreements, build highly secure borders, and more. Some may even see Trump making the US insular, if elected, which may please a lot of people who have suffered job losses due to globalization.
We may actually be looking at a period of Europe and the US withdrawing to defensible positions rather than role reversal.
The US, on the other hand, under Obama has started to question whether it should continue to play a leadership role or "lead from behind," whatever that means. Trump has amplified that by suggesting that the US reevaluate its role in NATO, consider whether Japan and South Korea should have nuclear arms, scrap or renegotiate some major trade agreements, build highly secure borders, and more. Some may even see Trump making the US insular, if elected, which may please a lot of people who have suffered job losses due to globalization.
We may actually be looking at a period of Europe and the US withdrawing to defensible positions rather than role reversal.
10
When we read: "Most Americans, on the other hand, still saw geopolitics through a Hobbesian lens: as a struggle for mastery in which threats need to be confronted quickly," all Americans must recognize that Douthat and McConnell and Cruz and all Republican pundits are not speaking about them, unless they are in the 1%.
Kagan is a Republican apologist, spinning narratives that become the party line of neo-cons. Reading Kagan, one is not persuaded unless certain facts are overlooked, unless historical evidence is spun to comply with a point of view that justifies the anti-democratic thrust of the 1%.
Kagan wrote: "The problem with Powell is his political and strategic judgment. He doesn’t believe the United States should enter conflicts without strong public support, but he also doesn't believe that the public will support anything. That kind of iron logic rules out almost every conceivable post-Cold War intervention" This was a criticism of our form of government in which popular support via the House is required for declaring war as stipulated in the Constitution. Kagan steps on the Constitution by way of insulting Colin Powell. Kagan is not a secret 1% sycophant, he designed the 1% flag.
Douthat has not read Kant. Douthat is not a mystery, a Republican who routinely creates narratives that are fundamentally flawed and always skewed to favor an American people a 1% who do not have to work.
When you read "American People" here, it's not you.
Kagan is a Republican apologist, spinning narratives that become the party line of neo-cons. Reading Kagan, one is not persuaded unless certain facts are overlooked, unless historical evidence is spun to comply with a point of view that justifies the anti-democratic thrust of the 1%.
Kagan wrote: "The problem with Powell is his political and strategic judgment. He doesn’t believe the United States should enter conflicts without strong public support, but he also doesn't believe that the public will support anything. That kind of iron logic rules out almost every conceivable post-Cold War intervention" This was a criticism of our form of government in which popular support via the House is required for declaring war as stipulated in the Constitution. Kagan steps on the Constitution by way of insulting Colin Powell. Kagan is not a secret 1% sycophant, he designed the 1% flag.
Douthat has not read Kant. Douthat is not a mystery, a Republican who routinely creates narratives that are fundamentally flawed and always skewed to favor an American people a 1% who do not have to work.
When you read "American People" here, it's not you.
50
Let's see if I get it. Mars was from Mars and Venus was from Venus. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Hobbes was from Mars and Kant was from Venus. Europe used to be from Mars, then it was from Venus, and now it's from Mars again. The US used to be from Mars but now it's from Venus. But one thing is certain. Ross is from Mars and he's going to stay being from Mars, at least as long as the Pope is from Venus.
58
Ross, you are from the moon. To compare President Hollande's fight against terror groups in Mali to the war in Iraq started with the excuse of looking for weapons of mass destruction and "accomplished" with a terrible mess for the Middle East and its populations is an April fool's joke at best.
Is it your wishful thinking that Hillary would be close in foreign policy to the Bush-Cheney clan? Well, she is an intelligent woman and i am convinced, she has learnt the lessons from her mistakes. What I hope for is that she, as President of the US, will assist Europe, who will have to do more for it's own safety in the future. Less irresponsible US Intervention combined with less European daydreaming and Mars and Venus will be a thing of the past.
Is it your wishful thinking that Hillary would be close in foreign policy to the Bush-Cheney clan? Well, she is an intelligent woman and i am convinced, she has learnt the lessons from her mistakes. What I hope for is that she, as President of the US, will assist Europe, who will have to do more for it's own safety in the future. Less irresponsible US Intervention combined with less European daydreaming and Mars and Venus will be a thing of the past.
40
Marie,
Um, Honduras and Libya would like a word with you.
Um, Honduras and Libya would like a word with you.
6
And therefore we should..... ?
11
When it comes to foreign policy the Republicans have wallowed in their ineptitude spending most of their time chest beating and Sanders gives the impression that a bank teller is more dangerous than a thousand Russian tanks crossing into Eastern Europe, only Hillary Clinton has the command to answer a ringing phone at two in the morning.
15
Michael Boyajian,
Well there your problem Mike.
The Bankers have already pillaged and plundered. Heck, they now control your Gov. Your Red Scare tanks are just a hypothetical. The enemy is already here and you've missed the ringing call.
Think the Lobbyist Girl is going to help here?! Yea, me neither.
Maybe that old guy that has been yelling about the ringing for like ever.
Well there your problem Mike.
The Bankers have already pillaged and plundered. Heck, they now control your Gov. Your Red Scare tanks are just a hypothetical. The enemy is already here and you've missed the ringing call.
Think the Lobbyist Girl is going to help here?! Yea, me neither.
Maybe that old guy that has been yelling about the ringing for like ever.
7
In fact, the kinds of stupid bank executive tricks (not bank tellers--yeesh!) that caused the 2008 real estate crash in both the U.S. and Britain ARE more dangerous to the average person than any hypothetical and unlikely World War II-like Russian attack on Europe.
6
The foreign policy course correction effected by President Obama is neither a shift to the American isolationism of the prewar years, nor a breakdown of the transatlantic alliance. If anything this foreign policy shift suggests its rather a conscious effort on the part of Obama to discard the world alienating bullying role of the US and bring it back to relevance in terms of guiding the world to being able to seek solution to numerous global problems not through military confrontations but through the well harnessed multilateral international diplomatic effort. It's not the traditional security doctrine that has long become obsolete but defining global security and peace in lasting terms under the changed international scenario.
38
Prof.Jai Prakash Sharma,
One does have to love those diplomatic drones huh.
Not so sure Honduras and Libya agree with your views of our diplomacy.
Funny that the worlds largest arms dealer is now talking about non-confrontational resolutions. Remind me, who was in charge before Kerry, of selling all those munitions to country's with human rights violations around the world again.?!!?
One does have to love those diplomatic drones huh.
Not so sure Honduras and Libya agree with your views of our diplomacy.
Funny that the worlds largest arms dealer is now talking about non-confrontational resolutions. Remind me, who was in charge before Kerry, of selling all those munitions to country's with human rights violations around the world again.?!!?
1
Putin -- like me, an old Cold Warrior -- must be rubbing his hands in glee with every new foreign policy pronouncement by Trump. And to think that the Republicans in America have had the temerity to question Barack Obama's patriotism! It's hard to tell if Trump is merely ignorant, certifiably insane or an unwitting, de facto dupe of the Kremlin. One way or the other, no security clearance "until we know what's going on"!
1
"AMERICANS are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus." - Robert Kagan
"Which is why, in this time of political turmoil on both sides of the Atlantic, it’s so striking to watch Mars and Venus reverse their Bush-era alignment." - Ross Douthat
We're in the 21st century. Yet we seem to be relying on the prognostications of soothsayers no more connected to reality than those who guided the Roman Empire - into oblivion.
The one bit of wisdom Douthat writes, and credits Kagan with (Even if both Douthat and Kagan, and their choir, seem ready dispense with that wisdom.) is, "Even if (as he conceded) the Mars and Venus language oversimplified things . . ." And that is where this essay should end. The Mars/Venus metaphor is not just oversimplified. The metaphor is worse than useless. It is dangerous, and has proved so. And we should be burying dangerous metaphors, not keeping them on life-support.
Let us be done with Mars, a hammer always looking for a nail, and Venus, an olive branch in search of a dove. We have Earth, which provides us all the information we need to be wise, without looking for signs in the heavens.
Let us be done with leaders and advisors who continue to dispense advice in the metaphor of Mars and Venus. It did not serve Rome. It will not serve us.
"Which is why, in this time of political turmoil on both sides of the Atlantic, it’s so striking to watch Mars and Venus reverse their Bush-era alignment." - Ross Douthat
We're in the 21st century. Yet we seem to be relying on the prognostications of soothsayers no more connected to reality than those who guided the Roman Empire - into oblivion.
The one bit of wisdom Douthat writes, and credits Kagan with (Even if both Douthat and Kagan, and their choir, seem ready dispense with that wisdom.) is, "Even if (as he conceded) the Mars and Venus language oversimplified things . . ." And that is where this essay should end. The Mars/Venus metaphor is not just oversimplified. The metaphor is worse than useless. It is dangerous, and has proved so. And we should be burying dangerous metaphors, not keeping them on life-support.
Let us be done with Mars, a hammer always looking for a nail, and Venus, an olive branch in search of a dove. We have Earth, which provides us all the information we need to be wise, without looking for signs in the heavens.
Let us be done with leaders and advisors who continue to dispense advice in the metaphor of Mars and Venus. It did not serve Rome. It will not serve us.
5
Yet another attempt to justify the foolhardy invasion of Iraq by yet another neo-con columnist. Who among us with a sane mind can equate Hillary with GW Bush? Sarkozy and Hollande with Bush/Cheney? Please, Mr. Douhart recant and repent. You cheered the invasion of Iraq and the expansion of NATO into Russia's back yard. You broke it; you own it.
4
“The time is the late 2020s, let’s say, and the French and Germans and Poles demand that the United States lend our still-unparalleled military strength to a conflict that seems essential to European security — toppling a nascent caliphate in North Africa, or recovering W.M.D. from a collapsing post-Putin Russia.”
Our extremely wealthy ally, Europe, has been a free rider on America’s military might for many decades. They must be laughing at us for allowing our infrastructure to crumble while they built new super-highways, bridges, airports, water-works, and high-speed trains. You see, Europeans have been spending money on infrastructure while we starved infrastructure in order to provide free military protection to Europe. They also invested in education and universal health care while we invested in foreign military bases and stupid foreign military interventions.
We have been taken to the cleaners by Europe.
Our extremely wealthy ally, Europe, has been a free rider on America’s military might for many decades. They must be laughing at us for allowing our infrastructure to crumble while they built new super-highways, bridges, airports, water-works, and high-speed trains. You see, Europeans have been spending money on infrastructure while we starved infrastructure in order to provide free military protection to Europe. They also invested in education and universal health care while we invested in foreign military bases and stupid foreign military interventions.
We have been taken to the cleaners by Europe.
6
"...We have been taken to the cleaners by Europe."
I disagree. You have been taken to the cleaners by your military-industrial complex. You could cut your military expenditures at least by half and still be the most powerful military on earth. The Europeans are not laughing at you, they are more likely shaking their heads in disbelief.
I disagree. You have been taken to the cleaners by your military-industrial complex. You could cut your military expenditures at least by half and still be the most powerful military on earth. The Europeans are not laughing at you, they are more likely shaking their heads in disbelief.
5
“A President Hillary Clinton will probably have more in common with George W. Bush on foreign policy than she does with either Trump or Sanders.”
Which is why Republicans ought to nominate Hillary for President.
She also supports "free trade", and has very close ties to Wall Street. Besides, she started out as a Republican and was a "Goldwater Girl" in 1964.
Hillary should switch parties to ensure that there will never be a President Trump, and allow Bernie Sanders to get the Democratic nomination. Then Sanders and Clinton would duke it out in the general election. Everybody wins in the end. All is well that ends well.
Which is why Republicans ought to nominate Hillary for President.
She also supports "free trade", and has very close ties to Wall Street. Besides, she started out as a Republican and was a "Goldwater Girl" in 1964.
Hillary should switch parties to ensure that there will never be a President Trump, and allow Bernie Sanders to get the Democratic nomination. Then Sanders and Clinton would duke it out in the general election. Everybody wins in the end. All is well that ends well.
6
Old Europe was from Venus and part of America was from Mars, and neo-con chickenhawks were from the everlasting Hell that their arrogant deceptions and unapologized-for disasters condemn them to. But this childish classification game was dumb in the days of the Cakewalk to Baghdad paid for completely out of Iraqi oil cheerfully given by cheering Iraqis, and it is even dumber to try to recycle it now. Obviously a slow day for new ideas at the Douthats.
13
It is precisely because the Mars-Venus divide results from the power differential that the man with a Venusian bent, an unearned peace prize and anti-colonialist rage has been scheming for 8 yrs to weaken this country.
1
I'm a college student from New York City currently studying abroad in London. Interestingly, the UK seems to want to distance itself from Europe just as much as the Trumpian nativists - an upcoming referendum on leaving the EU is dividing the country. The European countries I've traveled to all seem reminiscent of NYC post-9/11, with heightened police and military presence. But where I'm used to this level of security, Europe is clearly skittish. The UK, and Europe as a whole, need to reconcile their traditional Venusian and newly anxious outlooks, otherwise Britain's possible exit from the EU won't be the first schism on the continent.
1
Amazing how Donald Trump is in near perfect alignment with most Americans on these issues; and the leaders of both political parties are not. No doubt that most Time's readers are disgusted by Trump; and yet - he was the first candidate to articulate (using that word lightly) what is broadly felt. European countries devoting 1% of GDP to their military while the US does 3% to ours - and thus get a free ride against Putin - has no political support in the US.
Same for Japan which has benefited tremendously by a US State Department ordered subjugation of US economic interests to Japan's economic development - well, the Donald has a point here too. Japan is very unlikely to go nuclear militarily - but if it did - so what? The very basic emotion which Trump has tapped is that the people of the US do not want to be the world's policeman; arguments by foreign leaders pleading for US world leadership to continue not withstanding; and not being voiced in our election by any candidate.
Same for Japan which has benefited tremendously by a US State Department ordered subjugation of US economic interests to Japan's economic development - well, the Donald has a point here too. Japan is very unlikely to go nuclear militarily - but if it did - so what? The very basic emotion which Trump has tapped is that the people of the US do not want to be the world's policeman; arguments by foreign leaders pleading for US world leadership to continue not withstanding; and not being voiced in our election by any candidate.
10
I suspect that the eternal demands of the MIC for more, more, more are as much responsible for that 3% as any official policy. With a hammer that large it takes a real will not to view every foreign "problem" as a nail. Obama seems open to seeking alternative solutions.
5
An article based on the discredited, moth-eaten thoughts of Kagan? Give me a break! And Douthat can't dismiss the farce of Trump's ascendancy by pretending that any politician in Europe has a following as large as Trump's. You made him, Ross my boy. You own him.
16
"Not this time" what???
Is there a military power marching on Europe? Is there a European dictator attacking his European neighbors? What the heck is your point?
Do you want us to send our troops to the Med coast to keep Syrian refugees out of Europe?
Should we stop the tyrant Assad from invading Italy?
Maybe you think we should send the New York police department to Brussels to help root out terrorists?
Or how about embedding CIA agents there... oh they already are.
I can't see the parallel you are straining so mightily to draw.
Is there a military power marching on Europe? Is there a European dictator attacking his European neighbors? What the heck is your point?
Do you want us to send our troops to the Med coast to keep Syrian refugees out of Europe?
Should we stop the tyrant Assad from invading Italy?
Maybe you think we should send the New York police department to Brussels to help root out terrorists?
Or how about embedding CIA agents there... oh they already are.
I can't see the parallel you are straining so mightily to draw.
9
Nothing would boost Putin and scare Europeans more than Trump getting close to the US Presidency (even being the opponent of the dovish ex-pro-Russian Clinton). US authorities should perhaps investigate whether Trump's campaign is financed or helped in any way by Putin.
The only weakness ( and a huge one) in this argument is that your dialectical opposites (reversed or not) and metaphors are short-hand cliches for fine newspaper summaries and do not aid us to see and think about what's really going on at this moment in real time in either Europe or the US. Write all you want, for example, about Germany and the EU but American reporters and economists have never ever understood current Europe. Too many cartoon cliches in the way.
5
The likelihood of a "Socialist" US administration seems remarkable low, despite Rightwing cries to the contrary. Europe, however, could very well find itself still unarmed a decade from now, and have no one to blame but themselves.
Angela Merkel has happily led on economic issues (always to the benefit of German banks, of course), but consistently has covered for her international apathy with band-aids and rhetoric. Had Europe—and particularly Germany, who had the most to lose from a mass migration of refugees—taken the initiative with action rather than words, it might have saved the lives of thousands of Syrians without the need to house them in tents across Europe. Obama is right to point to the "freeloaders" who expect US blood and money to be spent solving problems they themselves only give lip service to.
Europeans should know better than most that to sustain a liberal and open society one must occasionally face down those who would challenge those values.
Angela Merkel has happily led on economic issues (always to the benefit of German banks, of course), but consistently has covered for her international apathy with band-aids and rhetoric. Had Europe—and particularly Germany, who had the most to lose from a mass migration of refugees—taken the initiative with action rather than words, it might have saved the lives of thousands of Syrians without the need to house them in tents across Europe. Obama is right to point to the "freeloaders" who expect US blood and money to be spent solving problems they themselves only give lip service to.
Europeans should know better than most that to sustain a liberal and open society one must occasionally face down those who would challenge those values.
6
Bernie Sanders has not, " promising socialism at home ". The reference to socialism is an outdated one, and has no basis in his policy statements. extending the K-12 support to universities is hardly socialist. Our better capitalist model, Germany, has it with success.
13
Why I Will Miss President Obama
The dynamic of the world has changed in the century since the first world war. We have a lot more people - around 1900 we had fewer than 2 billion people. We have more than tripled our population. That is a lot of potential for unrest.
Danger has expanded. Traditional sources like colonialism, cold war, nationalism, have faded some and nuclear weapons in unstable countries and vast populations of underemployed and futureless people have arisen in authoritarian or failed states.
President Obama has worked at shifting how we react to these threats from assuming we can either carpet bomb them into submission or occupy them into democracy. Europe had better catch up. While the US neo-con hands on approach is bad, the EU hands off approach won't work either.
Obama has been steering through the shifting sands, mostly deftly; we need to assure the next leader doesn't ground us.
The dynamic of the world has changed in the century since the first world war. We have a lot more people - around 1900 we had fewer than 2 billion people. We have more than tripled our population. That is a lot of potential for unrest.
Danger has expanded. Traditional sources like colonialism, cold war, nationalism, have faded some and nuclear weapons in unstable countries and vast populations of underemployed and futureless people have arisen in authoritarian or failed states.
President Obama has worked at shifting how we react to these threats from assuming we can either carpet bomb them into submission or occupy them into democracy. Europe had better catch up. While the US neo-con hands on approach is bad, the EU hands off approach won't work either.
Obama has been steering through the shifting sands, mostly deftly; we need to assure the next leader doesn't ground us.
34
Douthat is a moralist (no training necessary), but nothing in any of his columns suggest a rigorous, even desultory, training in history. Why the New York Times allows this adolescent, unformed opinion in its prestigious newspaper is perplexing, but then, I suppose it's a nod to the Republican view of the world, and we all know what that is worth, intellectually.
34
I read an opinion over twenty years ago arguing that George H.W. Bush deserved the Nobel Peace Prize for having reversed Saddam Hussein's aggression, having ensured order in the Middle East and in the World, and having prevented massive violence and suffering. In other words, the proper use of American force can do more to reduce actual violence in the world than some misguided American retreat form the world in favor of a dissipated, multinational, deliberative approach.
We now have had two terms of a President who was preemptively granted a Nobel Peace Prize for doing nothing more than articulating his support for what you call the Venusian approach, and his tenure as president has resulted in more instability in the world, more suffering, more violence against the innocent, and more destruction of civilization than at any time since World War II.
We now have had two terms of a President who was preemptively granted a Nobel Peace Prize for doing nothing more than articulating his support for what you call the Venusian approach, and his tenure as president has resulted in more instability in the world, more suffering, more violence against the innocent, and more destruction of civilization than at any time since World War II.
1
"a President who was preemptively granted a Nobel Peace Prize for doing nothing more than articulating his support"
Nonsense. He was given the Nobel Prize as the first black President, symbol of astounding progress in race relations and they hoped harbinger of yet more.
Of course the Republicans embarrassed the award by proving it was nothing of the sort, and in the process denied even what it was for.
Nonsense. He was given the Nobel Prize as the first black President, symbol of astounding progress in race relations and they hoped harbinger of yet more.
Of course the Republicans embarrassed the award by proving it was nothing of the sort, and in the process denied even what it was for.
1
And like the Roman gods, from on high policy is set to use the simple and the weak. Whether one god or another rules a domain, it is still the mortal class that pays the price.
2
If only they could provide us with solutions, deus ex machina. They only make things worse.
Late 2020"s ...."toppling a nascent caliphate in North Africa"
See Michel Houellebecq, Soumission (2015) which describes France under the rule of Islamic law in 2022. Unrealistic?
It may be too late for Europe to become Mars. Role reversals may not work in two directions.
See Michel Houellebecq, Soumission (2015) which describes France under the rule of Islamic law in 2022. Unrealistic?
It may be too late for Europe to become Mars. Role reversals may not work in two directions.
2
Michel Houellebecq is playing to hysteria, and for those who use hysteria to manipulate us.
France will never become Saudi Arabia. It is full of French people.
France will never become Saudi Arabia. It is full of French people.
7
The EU has a bigger economy than the US. Germany, Britain, and France have the world’s fourth, fifth and sixth largest economies respectively. Italy has a larger economy than Russia. If Western Europe wanted to become a major military power it could do so relatively quickly. If Trump becomes President it may need to.
1
The world needs a Germany with a powerful military, a strong leader and a desire for foreign military adventures?
If you mean it, just say it.
If you mean it, just say it.
2
My mother told me, "Don't start a fight you can't finish." Dirty Harry said, "A man's gotta know his limitations." After all the killing and wasted dollars, what did we accomplish in Vietnam? In Iraq? In Libya? In Afghanistan? in Syria? What would have resulted if we had not intervened in these foreign countries? I submit that we and they would have been better off had we not intervened.
10
Kagan's simple and simpleminded analysis leaves aside Bush & Co. lying us into an unecessary, useless,and soul-destroying war in Iraq that sapped America's might, will and treasure.Kagan was a cheerleader for that effort, waving his pompoms at every lie. A typical chicken hawk : always in error, never in doubt.
8
First, Kagan over-simplifies in order to drive home a rather bizarre straw-man/duality (and to the extent that Hillary utilizes/accepts his posture she is either less astute than hoped or already mired in the mud of neocon exegesis).
Second, I find the Richard L. comment on all this strange, at least. What do the last seven years (why do you dislike Obama so much, really, Richard?) have to do with the movement well under way by 2002? Perhaps, only the influence of Hillary as Sec State?
There is a via media between being the policeman of the world and being isolationist. That way can best be uncovered/discovered by engagement with friend and foe alike and by trying to bring them all to the same table.
I would love to hear a better answer, even a simpler one ... but not one that ignores our potential or disregards the realities.
Second, I find the Richard L. comment on all this strange, at least. What do the last seven years (why do you dislike Obama so much, really, Richard?) have to do with the movement well under way by 2002? Perhaps, only the influence of Hillary as Sec State?
There is a via media between being the policeman of the world and being isolationist. That way can best be uncovered/discovered by engagement with friend and foe alike and by trying to bring them all to the same table.
I would love to hear a better answer, even a simpler one ... but not one that ignores our potential or disregards the realities.
3
Abstract mumbo-jumbo with no relevance to understanding the hard choices to be made or their consequences.
7
What is Douthat's point?
2
With only 0.75% of Americans volunteering to put on the military uniform of any American armed force since September 11, 2001, most Americans are merely clucking war hens. Willing to bloviate, bluster and bombast for war in order to sacrifice the blood, sweat, tears, lives and limbs of anyone but their family, friends and neighbors.
The Europeans are sheltering beneath the mighty shield and behind the sharp spear of an American military titan that spends more on it's military than the next eight nations combined. Including 8x Russia and 3x China. America has ten nuclear aircraft carrier fleet battle groups. No other nation has more than one. America has bases and troops scattered across the globe coupled with some strategic military alliances led by NATO.
Due to a history of leading Europe into two World Wars, Germany is economically strong but relatively weak militarily, politically and diplomatically. While France and the United Kingdom have nuclear weapons and are permanent members of the UN Security Council with smaller populations than Germany.
Robert Kagan comes from a clan of military service evading neocon Zionist Jews focused primarily on what is best for Israel. Clinton, Trump, Cruz and Kasich are all military service evading war monger clucking hens. Like Cheney, Gingrich, Giuliani and the rest of the Republican 2016 candidates. Europe needs Middle Eastern fossil fuel. And the Middle East was part of many European and the colonial Turkish empire.
The Europeans are sheltering beneath the mighty shield and behind the sharp spear of an American military titan that spends more on it's military than the next eight nations combined. Including 8x Russia and 3x China. America has ten nuclear aircraft carrier fleet battle groups. No other nation has more than one. America has bases and troops scattered across the globe coupled with some strategic military alliances led by NATO.
Due to a history of leading Europe into two World Wars, Germany is economically strong but relatively weak militarily, politically and diplomatically. While France and the United Kingdom have nuclear weapons and are permanent members of the UN Security Council with smaller populations than Germany.
Robert Kagan comes from a clan of military service evading neocon Zionist Jews focused primarily on what is best for Israel. Clinton, Trump, Cruz and Kasich are all military service evading war monger clucking hens. Like Cheney, Gingrich, Giuliani and the rest of the Republican 2016 candidates. Europe needs Middle Eastern fossil fuel. And the Middle East was part of many European and the colonial Turkish empire.
10
Mr. Douthat: Your piece today smacks of an unappealing schadenfreude. The world will always change, but never in ways we can predict with any justifiable confidence.
2
When tagging Europe and the US as either typically masculine or feminine (from Mars, from Venus), we should all remember and acknowledge that Europeans ... this includes Britain ... know a whole lot more about actual ground war, and blood, and trenches, and invasion and loss, in living memory, than Americans do. This may help explain Angela Merkel's extraordinary generosity.
8
Retreating, out of frustration with failed efforts of the past or from fear that by extending ourselves overseas we weaken our ability to defend ourselves, is not an option. We may wish it to be so, but we have passed that point in world history where retreat is possible. We are in this together whether we like it or not. And a conventionally strong military sounds like it might be the solution, but our enemies are diverse, mobile and electronically sophisticated. Unfortunately, we need both a capable, conventional military and a strategy that includes cutting-edge technology to identify and neutralize active threats before they strike. We need to be working even closer with our European partners to combat the threats facing them today because we face those same threats on our own soil. I watched the Twin Towers crumble with my own eyes from the streets of lower Manhattan – I will never forget that day and I know it could happen again.
And one more thing. We must fight as aggressively to combat the root causes of the growing pool of young people who are willing to blow themselves up to make a point as we do to prevent the attacks themselves. If our way of life is to survive, we must embrace the disaffected youth of the world, end the wars that are destroying their homes and families, and offer them an alternative to self-destruction. They have embraced jihad out of desperation and they are not likely to abandon it until they have a reason to live.
And one more thing. We must fight as aggressively to combat the root causes of the growing pool of young people who are willing to blow themselves up to make a point as we do to prevent the attacks themselves. If our way of life is to survive, we must embrace the disaffected youth of the world, end the wars that are destroying their homes and families, and offer them an alternative to self-destruction. They have embraced jihad out of desperation and they are not likely to abandon it until they have a reason to live.
2
"A President Hillary Clinton will probably have more in common with George W. Bush on foreign policy than she does with either Trump or Sanders."
She certainly will if she continues to rely on advice from Robert Kagen
She certainly will if she continues to rely on advice from Robert Kagen
6
The Europeans are obviously learning from their mistakes; if the US continues to allow illegal immigration and unverified 'migration' from the Middle East, it too will suffer as Europe suffers today. Stability and safety are maintained when immigrants are vetted as required by US immigration law.
2
"if the US continues to allow illegal immigration and unverified 'migration' from the Middle East"
Continues? There is none. None. That is fear mongering, and lies to do so.
Of course there is an immigration issue to our South, but it is totally divorced from terrorism. Not one single incident.
Continues? There is none. None. That is fear mongering, and lies to do so.
Of course there is an immigration issue to our South, but it is totally divorced from terrorism. Not one single incident.
6
Yes, Europe's "weakness" Is self imposed. I lived in Europe for over 15 years, and their attitude is "on another planet" than ours.
One of their key weaknesses is the lack of a Federation, other than NATO.
It is quite possible a change in polarities, of the two continents. And, yes, "not this time" could be our choice with a new government arriving in January, 2017. Oh, there are many good comments in this reply section!
One of their key weaknesses is the lack of a Federation, other than NATO.
It is quite possible a change in polarities, of the two continents. And, yes, "not this time" could be our choice with a new government arriving in January, 2017. Oh, there are many good comments in this reply section!
From Day One, the US always intended that NATO would be under US control, with the US role indispensable. There were very good reasons for that.
First, it mean no more European wars. In 1945, that was a very live issue. We disregard it now because NATO worked that way. We must not act now like the patient who stops taking his antidepressant meds because he's no longer depressed. Give up what stabilized the peace, and lose the peace.
Second, US leadersbip0 provided a unity that France, Britain, Germany, Italy and others would not easily accept from each others' leadership. Give up the US leadership, and who will lead that disparate crowd of independents?
Third, the US had the size to provide the special services that each of the smaller nations could not economically do for itself. This means things like tanker aircraft, electronic specialist aircraft, inventories of munitions, and much more. US contorl of these things was more than just more economical, it was also insurance that none could act with too much independence, i.e. against another or to drag all into trouble.
That European dependence on the US in NATO is a feature by design, not a failure. Change it, and other alternatives must take up the slack for the purposes served by the US. Is Europe ready to have Germany do that? No. France? Certainly not.
First, it mean no more European wars. In 1945, that was a very live issue. We disregard it now because NATO worked that way. We must not act now like the patient who stops taking his antidepressant meds because he's no longer depressed. Give up what stabilized the peace, and lose the peace.
Second, US leadersbip0 provided a unity that France, Britain, Germany, Italy and others would not easily accept from each others' leadership. Give up the US leadership, and who will lead that disparate crowd of independents?
Third, the US had the size to provide the special services that each of the smaller nations could not economically do for itself. This means things like tanker aircraft, electronic specialist aircraft, inventories of munitions, and much more. US contorl of these things was more than just more economical, it was also insurance that none could act with too much independence, i.e. against another or to drag all into trouble.
That European dependence on the US in NATO is a feature by design, not a failure. Change it, and other alternatives must take up the slack for the purposes served by the US. Is Europe ready to have Germany do that? No. France? Certainly not.
5
Robert Kagan was wrong (he has and is wrong on practically everything, but I digress).
The move towards Venus and Acquarius by the US is most welcome. The move towards idiocy by the european elites (starting with Mr. Blair) and, therefore, by the populace is well documented.
Let's hope reason will eventually prevail (at the cost of supporting Mrs. Merkel; may she live long and prosper)
Marco Antoniotti
The move towards Venus and Acquarius by the US is most welcome. The move towards idiocy by the european elites (starting with Mr. Blair) and, therefore, by the populace is well documented.
Let's hope reason will eventually prevail (at the cost of supporting Mrs. Merkel; may she live long and prosper)
Marco Antoniotti
2
Merkel's humanity is admirable, but it enables avoidance of the underlying problem.
The underlying problem is that all these people are being driven from their homes, their own countries destroyed.
The West is not sole actor in that, but it plays a very important role enabling that to happen. The US and Saudis in particular were key to turning Syria into the current disaster, just as the US was key to turning Iraq into the current disaster, and the EU with the US turned Libya into the current disaster.
This does not place sole blame, just key roles. However, if those roles were reversed, those wars could still be limited. All sides in Syria for example are entirely dependent on outside arms and expertise and money.
Proof is that when the US shut off ammo supplies a few years ago, fighting stopped, and complaints of "they won't let us fight" were featured in much of the Western press, along with "evil Assad."
Well, Assad is excrement, but that does not change the underlying proof that we did and could again shut off that fighting. THAT is the underlying problem, not who provides the place to which they run.
The underlying problem is that all these people are being driven from their homes, their own countries destroyed.
The West is not sole actor in that, but it plays a very important role enabling that to happen. The US and Saudis in particular were key to turning Syria into the current disaster, just as the US was key to turning Iraq into the current disaster, and the EU with the US turned Libya into the current disaster.
This does not place sole blame, just key roles. However, if those roles were reversed, those wars could still be limited. All sides in Syria for example are entirely dependent on outside arms and expertise and money.
Proof is that when the US shut off ammo supplies a few years ago, fighting stopped, and complaints of "they won't let us fight" were featured in much of the Western press, along with "evil Assad."
Well, Assad is excrement, but that does not change the underlying proof that we did and could again shut off that fighting. THAT is the underlying problem, not who provides the place to which they run.
4
You are so wrong on Senator Sanders.
Bernie does not promote isolationism any more than he advocates for the hawkish, militaristic policies of Hillary Clinton. The world is not binary & there are more than two possibilities of how we should engage with and deal with the international community. If the New York Times had treated his candidacy fairly in terms of coverage, most would know that immediately.
What Bernie has proposed & supports is an America engaged with the world but more inclined to work co-operatively with other nations rather than alone as a first among equals. He values fair trade- not race to the bottom so-called free trade. Millions of Americans also realize that America's self-appointed role of being the world's policeman has not made us safer, has cost us a fortune and hurts our standing in the world.
Europe has a mess of it's own making. The Schengen Zone is toast and the experiment failed. Millions of Europeans have no problem of being more European but reject the internationalist positions the EU embraces & do not desire an invasion of dissimilar peoples illegally flooding the continent in search of the welfare state. That is not unreasonable as any society must be able to control borders and migration to enable control over economic and political conditions as long as racism and xenophobia are not along for the ride.
Europe is in for difficult times as it sorts out the future after the EU as we have known it goes away as a failed experiment.
Bernie does not promote isolationism any more than he advocates for the hawkish, militaristic policies of Hillary Clinton. The world is not binary & there are more than two possibilities of how we should engage with and deal with the international community. If the New York Times had treated his candidacy fairly in terms of coverage, most would know that immediately.
What Bernie has proposed & supports is an America engaged with the world but more inclined to work co-operatively with other nations rather than alone as a first among equals. He values fair trade- not race to the bottom so-called free trade. Millions of Americans also realize that America's self-appointed role of being the world's policeman has not made us safer, has cost us a fortune and hurts our standing in the world.
Europe has a mess of it's own making. The Schengen Zone is toast and the experiment failed. Millions of Europeans have no problem of being more European but reject the internationalist positions the EU embraces & do not desire an invasion of dissimilar peoples illegally flooding the continent in search of the welfare state. That is not unreasonable as any society must be able to control borders and migration to enable control over economic and political conditions as long as racism and xenophobia are not along for the ride.
Europe is in for difficult times as it sorts out the future after the EU as we have known it goes away as a failed experiment.
5
Douthat here divides thinking on international affairs into neocon and not-neocon.
While there is some appeal and relevance to anything-but-neocon, that is actually a huge category of widely different possibilities. There is realist, Wilsonian idealism, isolationism, and much more, that have no connection except they reject what the neocons did to us.
The key relevance of not-neocon is who is now today still neocon. That includes Hillary. That includes the accepted truth of the whole Republican Party. They'd all repeat Bush.
However, there are two important lines of dissent. Bernie is one, and Trump is the other. They are very different from each other.
Trump is belittled as without ideas by both Parties, but that is not so. He resembles the Nixon/Kissinger approach of unpredictable power used for selfish national purposes.
Bernie is belittled as isolationist by both Parties, but that is not so. He is the very opposite of isolationist. He emphasizes international cooperation on international tasks for common purposes of mutual advantage, such as dealing with climate change and the underlying issues driving terrorism. Bernie is thus the opposite of Trump too.
The neocons are deeply invested in denial of all alternatives, denial the alternatives even exist. Many of the Bush Admin neocon thinkers have flocked over to Hillary as the way to ride back into power. They cannot find places with either Bernie or Trump.
While there is some appeal and relevance to anything-but-neocon, that is actually a huge category of widely different possibilities. There is realist, Wilsonian idealism, isolationism, and much more, that have no connection except they reject what the neocons did to us.
The key relevance of not-neocon is who is now today still neocon. That includes Hillary. That includes the accepted truth of the whole Republican Party. They'd all repeat Bush.
However, there are two important lines of dissent. Bernie is one, and Trump is the other. They are very different from each other.
Trump is belittled as without ideas by both Parties, but that is not so. He resembles the Nixon/Kissinger approach of unpredictable power used for selfish national purposes.
Bernie is belittled as isolationist by both Parties, but that is not so. He is the very opposite of isolationist. He emphasizes international cooperation on international tasks for common purposes of mutual advantage, such as dealing with climate change and the underlying issues driving terrorism. Bernie is thus the opposite of Trump too.
The neocons are deeply invested in denial of all alternatives, denial the alternatives even exist. Many of the Bush Admin neocon thinkers have flocked over to Hillary as the way to ride back into power. They cannot find places with either Bernie or Trump.
10
"Most Americans?" Try maybe most Republicans and centrist white men. A huge portion of the nation has not been hawkish and convinced of the necessity of Rambo diplomacy for a long time. You are anmoyingly sloppy in your rehular assumption that "most" people think like George W. Bush and Dick Cheyney did.
It ain't true, son. Maybe not even half true.
It ain't true, son. Maybe not even half true.
5
Europeans must rue the day they decided to support the Iraq war ( except France ). Thanks to us opening the Pandora's box in the Middle East and their proximity to the war zone they are bearing the brunt of the catastrophe while we separated by the Atlantic decide to take in a few thousand refugees while making the situation worse with our drones and our clueless military. If there was no NATO I am sure the role-reversal would have come way sooner.
1
In fact, most EU-countries did not support the Iraq war, only the UK and I think Portugal did. Afghanistan was different.
1
"This unstable combination suggests that the trans-Atlantic relationship may be headed for a strange inflection point, a kind of through-the-looking-glass version of the Iraq debate."
Um, Ross, the Iraq debate leading up to the invasion in 2003 *was* a through-the-looking-glass debate. The truth was what Dick Cheney said it was.
Um, Ross, the Iraq debate leading up to the invasion in 2003 *was* a through-the-looking-glass debate. The truth was what Dick Cheney said it was.
3
Douthat's utter lack of historical understanding is again on displays. HIs comment "Continent’s Venusian idyll has taken blow after blow: the euro crisis, the aggressions of Vladimir Putin, and now the convergence of mass migration and Islamist terror," fails utterly to acknowledge these events were initiated by the frauds perpetrated by the American Financial Sector, The USA refuing to abide by earlier agreement with Putin to keep Nato out of Eastern Europe, and the completely unwarranted and illegal American invasion of Iraq.
2
With all due respect, Mr. Douthat; most Americans really do not have a clue about what is happening in Europe. From the safety of several thousand miles, and a TV, or computer screen away, it's very easy to express one's opinions and judgments without having getting to get one's hands dirty in the process.
At the same time, it must be said that most Americans don't need a Hobbesian lens, or a degree in Kantain philosophy to recognize that there serious problems on both sides of the Atlantic, just like it wouldn't take much to see that German Chancellor Angela Merkel's humanitarian gesture toward Syrian refugees has managed to backfire, and big time.
If anything is certain, it's probably that most Europeans don't believe in the Kantian dream of perpetual "peace and relative prosperity".
Recent terrorist attacks in three major European capitals has taken care of that. Nevertheless, about time that the E.U has taken steps to act. The lives of hundreds of thousands of refugees depends on it. And anyone who thinks differently should get a passport and travel to Europe to see for themselves.
At the same time, it must be said that most Americans don't need a Hobbesian lens, or a degree in Kantain philosophy to recognize that there serious problems on both sides of the Atlantic, just like it wouldn't take much to see that German Chancellor Angela Merkel's humanitarian gesture toward Syrian refugees has managed to backfire, and big time.
If anything is certain, it's probably that most Europeans don't believe in the Kantian dream of perpetual "peace and relative prosperity".
Recent terrorist attacks in three major European capitals has taken care of that. Nevertheless, about time that the E.U has taken steps to act. The lives of hundreds of thousands of refugees depends on it. And anyone who thinks differently should get a passport and travel to Europe to see for themselves.
1
I do not understand why Ross Douthat wants to reopen old wounds created when W and his gang invaded Iraq, in their folly, claiming "who is not with us is against us," which led Kagan to bring forth his myth that "Americans are from Mars and Europeans are from from Venus".
It's hogwash.
Blair, not at all being from "Mars," but rightly foreseeing a total breakdown of world order if the US were to go into Iraq alone, courageously carried Britain and a few others into the fray, for which he paid the personal political price and the US must remain eternally grateful. All moral debts for WWI and WWII fully repaid now, thank you.
All the same, Iraq was a folly of monumental proportions, with consequences that will carry into decades (if not centuries) of unrest and upheaval. The "Venus" Europeans, with France at the forefront, were right to object as strenuously as they could.
But do not believe for a moment that Britain, France, or even little Belgium from which I hail, let alone Germany, Spain, Sweden and all the rest, are soft and meek and submissive where survival is concerned.
It just amazes me that American right wingers can't leave well enough alone when the GOP front runner himself (OK, a rogue in the herd of elephants, but still), called Iraq the "beaut" of a mistake that it was.
Shame on you Mr. Douthat. You are an embarrassment to conservatives and to America.
It's hogwash.
Blair, not at all being from "Mars," but rightly foreseeing a total breakdown of world order if the US were to go into Iraq alone, courageously carried Britain and a few others into the fray, for which he paid the personal political price and the US must remain eternally grateful. All moral debts for WWI and WWII fully repaid now, thank you.
All the same, Iraq was a folly of monumental proportions, with consequences that will carry into decades (if not centuries) of unrest and upheaval. The "Venus" Europeans, with France at the forefront, were right to object as strenuously as they could.
But do not believe for a moment that Britain, France, or even little Belgium from which I hail, let alone Germany, Spain, Sweden and all the rest, are soft and meek and submissive where survival is concerned.
It just amazes me that American right wingers can't leave well enough alone when the GOP front runner himself (OK, a rogue in the herd of elephants, but still), called Iraq the "beaut" of a mistake that it was.
Shame on you Mr. Douthat. You are an embarrassment to conservatives and to America.
2
Douhat: "We need more wars"
Me: "When will you people ever learn?"
Me: "When will you people ever learn?"
3
Ross,
France scarcely a thousand years old underwent three years of chaos under a reign of terror and several generations until the promise of democracy took hold. The Arab Spring is still a fresh memory but two major Middle-East states foment chaos to protect their elites from the forces demanding democracy.
Russia is till trying to figure out its role in our age of the internet and what to do about its Mississippis like the Eastern Ukraine which is far more Russian than Moscow.
China is building 25million people megacities and barely keeping a lid on the voices calling for democracy in population that is better educated and more cosmopolitan every day.
Each year the Western Democracies move further away from the US and the USA "global " economy."
The leader of the Little England movement is Boris Johnson the mayor of London a leading conservative intellectual and the next English Prime Minister unless he can be persuaded to seek the highest office in the USA by virtue of his birth in Manhattan. Mayor Johnson by the way is at home anywhere on this planet Brussels, Moscow, New York , Delhi, Beijing or anywhere.
There is only one wild card and that is the USA. We will soon see whether the financial, political, media and military power can be wrested away from those that would take us into the fascist dystopia of 1984.
Nothing brought home America's descent like seeing the former beacon of freedom and democracy ranked 49th in Reporters without Borders in Press Freedom.
France scarcely a thousand years old underwent three years of chaos under a reign of terror and several generations until the promise of democracy took hold. The Arab Spring is still a fresh memory but two major Middle-East states foment chaos to protect their elites from the forces demanding democracy.
Russia is till trying to figure out its role in our age of the internet and what to do about its Mississippis like the Eastern Ukraine which is far more Russian than Moscow.
China is building 25million people megacities and barely keeping a lid on the voices calling for democracy in population that is better educated and more cosmopolitan every day.
Each year the Western Democracies move further away from the US and the USA "global " economy."
The leader of the Little England movement is Boris Johnson the mayor of London a leading conservative intellectual and the next English Prime Minister unless he can be persuaded to seek the highest office in the USA by virtue of his birth in Manhattan. Mayor Johnson by the way is at home anywhere on this planet Brussels, Moscow, New York , Delhi, Beijing or anywhere.
There is only one wild card and that is the USA. We will soon see whether the financial, political, media and military power can be wrested away from those that would take us into the fascist dystopia of 1984.
Nothing brought home America's descent like seeing the former beacon of freedom and democracy ranked 49th in Reporters without Borders in Press Freedom.
2
"And a Socialist administration in Washington, backed by more than a few Trumpian Nationalists in Congress, looks across the ocean at Europe’s wars and whispers, “not this time.”"
That's a pipe dream if I've ever heard one.
The time for "not this time" is gone forever, as 9/11 and recent events in Europe make it impossible for that type of naive thinking to persist.
As far as the "Trump Doctrine" is concerned (I can't believe I just wrote that, either), "Crush Isis" actually sounds pretty good, but I think that nuclear part and the NATO details still needs a little tweaking.
"The Trump Doctrine". That sounded too good to only include once in this post.
And note to Sarah Palin, there will be a pop quiz on it tomorrow.
That's a pipe dream if I've ever heard one.
The time for "not this time" is gone forever, as 9/11 and recent events in Europe make it impossible for that type of naive thinking to persist.
As far as the "Trump Doctrine" is concerned (I can't believe I just wrote that, either), "Crush Isis" actually sounds pretty good, but I think that nuclear part and the NATO details still needs a little tweaking.
"The Trump Doctrine". That sounded too good to only include once in this post.
And note to Sarah Palin, there will be a pop quiz on it tomorrow.
1
NATO is dying because the military capabilities and defense spending of our NATO allies has significantly declined, leaving us to protect them militarily, while they run up trade surpluses against us. Trump is right on that much. Europe must decide whether or not it values NATO and a common defense. If it does, it must contribute it's share. We also need to stop parceling up our defense in organizations like NATO, SEATO, special pacts with Saudi Arabia and Israel. We need one alliance of equal contributors, fighting for common goals around the world. Now, we just have separate groups of nations agreeing to allow us to defend them. Some, like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Turkey do so while supporting terrorists and a radical Wahhabi cult which kill Americans and Westerners. We need to look first to our own interests and that includes are economic interests. We have happily allowed a lot of 'allies' to play us for suckers.
2
Aging neocons need to learn this phrase as it relates to Europe and the Middle East, "Not my problem."
1
This column would make a decent graphic novel, with Donald as 1st Guy saying "We are going to do some beautiful things in Poland, we will build a yuge wall and win this deal!" next to Melania and Ben Affleck as Batman.
This column would make a decent graphic novel, with Donald as 1st Guy saying "We are going to do beautiful things in Poland, we will build a huge wall, Russia will pay and America will win this deal!" Melania plays Wonder Woman and Harrison Ford brings Chewie.
Mr. Douthat,
What we require is a Trans-Atlantic Role Reset.
Nationalism is on the rise again in Europe, and as you correctly observe, they are militarily weak -- which renders the European-Union as oxymoronic as NATO-Force.
We (US and Europe) need to get back to our corners, recuperate, and build a relationship attuned to modern times and the future.
What Sanders and Trump propose is just that -- get us to our corner to recuperate.
What we require is a Trans-Atlantic Role Reset.
Nationalism is on the rise again in Europe, and as you correctly observe, they are militarily weak -- which renders the European-Union as oxymoronic as NATO-Force.
We (US and Europe) need to get back to our corners, recuperate, and build a relationship attuned to modern times and the future.
What Sanders and Trump propose is just that -- get us to our corner to recuperate.
Coffee-shop musings, 3 a.m. dorm-room stuff, not up to Douthat's standards at all.
1
This column would make a decent graphic novel, with Chewie as 1st Guy saying "We are going to do beautiful things in Poland, we will build a yuge wall and America will win!" while Donald plays Batman and Melania plays Wonder Woman providing quiet backup and Palin as VP brandishes her light sword.
The US is turning into an effete weakling when it should be killing more, not less. America's problem is that it cares too much about it's own people. The $5 trillion price tag for Iraq and Afghanistan seemed a bit steep when it could have paid for all US public college educations for 50 years. Young people just don't get it. When they could be dying on the battlefield, instead they want to get educated for free. There are a lot of Arabs out there, and the more we kill them, the friendlier they get. If we would just pick up the pace a bit we'd have world peace in no time.
In 1994, Dick Cheney looked back on the Persian Gulf war and concluded that they'd been wise not to march into Baghdad: "Once you got to Iraq and took it over, took down Saddam Hussein's government, then what are you going to put in its place? That's a very volatile part of the world, and if you take down the central government of Iraq, you could very easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off ... It's a quagmire if you go that far and try to take over Iraq." By 2003 he had realized his error -- after being CEO of Halliburton for 5 years he learned how to divert $39.5 billion in war-related contracts to his former corporation, and he understood the benefit and value of war to the American economy and the American people.
A lot of soft-hearted liberals don't want war. They just don't get it and they never will. Thank you, Mr. Douthat!
In 1994, Dick Cheney looked back on the Persian Gulf war and concluded that they'd been wise not to march into Baghdad: "Once you got to Iraq and took it over, took down Saddam Hussein's government, then what are you going to put in its place? That's a very volatile part of the world, and if you take down the central government of Iraq, you could very easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off ... It's a quagmire if you go that far and try to take over Iraq." By 2003 he had realized his error -- after being CEO of Halliburton for 5 years he learned how to divert $39.5 billion in war-related contracts to his former corporation, and he understood the benefit and value of war to the American economy and the American people.
A lot of soft-hearted liberals don't want war. They just don't get it and they never will. Thank you, Mr. Douthat!
3
If "weakling" is a power bigger bigger than all its allies and major enemies combined (mostly allies), then what would it take to be strong?
Nothing would satisfy. That is their point. More, more, more, ever more. Eisenhower warned of this.
Nothing would satisfy. That is their point. More, more, more, ever more. Eisenhower warned of this.
3
" A President Hillary Clinton will probably have more in common with George W. Bush on foreign policy than she does with either Trump or Sanders."
Finally Douthat sees it clearly.
The elites of both parties lack any constituencies to speak of, other than say, the donor class and some religious fanatics. That is why Obama was elected, and that is why either Sanders or Trump will be the next president.
The foreign policy practiced for the last several decades serves no one other than the elite's interests. As for ISIS, I suggest every American and every western European watch the Saudi Arabia episode of PBS Frontline, while keeping in mind who secures the survival of the Saudi royal family.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/saudi-arabia-uncovered/
We create enemies while enriching the few, then tax our citizenry to fight those enemies. It really makes no sense.
Finally Douthat sees it clearly.
The elites of both parties lack any constituencies to speak of, other than say, the donor class and some religious fanatics. That is why Obama was elected, and that is why either Sanders or Trump will be the next president.
The foreign policy practiced for the last several decades serves no one other than the elite's interests. As for ISIS, I suggest every American and every western European watch the Saudi Arabia episode of PBS Frontline, while keeping in mind who secures the survival of the Saudi royal family.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/saudi-arabia-uncovered/
We create enemies while enriching the few, then tax our citizenry to fight those enemies. It really makes no sense.
4
"Venusian" is not English. The proper word is venereal. If you don't like that because of its other meaning, then use "Cytherian" (from the Greek name for Venus, Cytherea).
Carl Sagan taught me this in a class on planetary astronomy long ago. He was wrong about many things, but right about this one.
Carl Sagan taught me this in a class on planetary astronomy long ago. He was wrong about many things, but right about this one.
1
"France and Britain couldn’t have toppled Qaddafi without us. The nations of Eastern Europe still need our protection against Putin."
As is now well-known, Hillary Clinton persuaded the president to insure a “no fly zone” over Libya to depose Qaddafi. Apparently, she did not much care that ISIS was already in Libya, or give any thought to the possibility that ISIS could expand its control there, once Qaddafi was dead.
Less-known is that Clinton sent Americans to Ukraine, with lots of money, to organize opposition to its president. The president was reportedly more corrupt than was customary for Ukraine, but he had been duly elected. The American-organized opposition forced him to flee to Russia. Russians living in the Ukraine's Crimea rallied to Russia, which tried to annex it, leading to our being in another cold war with Russia.
We have Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to thank for letting ISIS expand in Libya, and for instigating the trouble between Eastern Europe and Russia.
As is now well-known, Hillary Clinton persuaded the president to insure a “no fly zone” over Libya to depose Qaddafi. Apparently, she did not much care that ISIS was already in Libya, or give any thought to the possibility that ISIS could expand its control there, once Qaddafi was dead.
Less-known is that Clinton sent Americans to Ukraine, with lots of money, to organize opposition to its president. The president was reportedly more corrupt than was customary for Ukraine, but he had been duly elected. The American-organized opposition forced him to flee to Russia. Russians living in the Ukraine's Crimea rallied to Russia, which tried to annex it, leading to our being in another cold war with Russia.
We have Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to thank for letting ISIS expand in Libya, and for instigating the trouble between Eastern Europe and Russia.
3
When Obama would not do it, she went to Europe and arranged for the French to jump in first, with promises she could prevent the US from leaving them to twist in the wind. That is why it started before US ships and assets were in place. That is why the French and Brits ran out of ammo, and had to pause for the US to jump in with re-supply, and tanker aircraft, and AWACS to control it all that were not there at the start.
1
Ross lives in a dreamland. Notice how the pundit, young enough to have volunteered after 9-11, waxes about the need for constant military conflict from the safety of his laptop?
It's Western imperialism, led by a secret intelligence agency, newly-created after the Second World War, and turned into a clandestine army under Ike, that is mainly responsible for our current miserable state of foreign affairs.
America still spends trillions of dollars on the military and security state, and no president, no matter how dovish they sound while campaigning, will change course once elected to office.
An incident over 52 years ago during a motorcade trip through Dallas ensured that any attempts at changing the status-quo will be met with severe punishment.
It's Western imperialism, led by a secret intelligence agency, newly-created after the Second World War, and turned into a clandestine army under Ike, that is mainly responsible for our current miserable state of foreign affairs.
America still spends trillions of dollars on the military and security state, and no president, no matter how dovish they sound while campaigning, will change course once elected to office.
An incident over 52 years ago during a motorcade trip through Dallas ensured that any attempts at changing the status-quo will be met with severe punishment.
14
You are really stretching to tie your premise into the Kennedy assination.
3
I wish I were.
3
To say that France and Britain could not have brought down Ghedaffi is a long stretch, if not an outright error. It was not their military inability that would have prevented it, but their unwillingness to engage the issue on their own and the security they felt if propped up by the US. The world, and the US, will have to be used to the fact that the US will not be the decider of every issue but will always be a crucial component to their solution. In every situation, the same
considerations obtain: is it really critical to our national interest, can we do anything about it, will we make things worse, is the sacrifice of lives and treasure worth the outcome, will it create contrary reactions in the rest of the world. All of these factors must be considered, and not whether we should worry about our lost super power status.
considerations obtain: is it really critical to our national interest, can we do anything about it, will we make things worse, is the sacrifice of lives and treasure worth the outcome, will it create contrary reactions in the rest of the world. All of these factors must be considered, and not whether we should worry about our lost super power status.
62
Well said Frank. Many years ago in our business, we were forced to recognize the importance of deciding what not to do, what bids not to pursue and what projects not to undertake.
Over the last 50 years, from Vietnam to Syria our government decision makers do not appear to have seriously considered what would happen if we did engage in these wars.
Over the last 50 years, from Vietnam to Syria our government decision makers do not appear to have seriously considered what would happen if we did engage in these wars.
1
"if nationalism is making Europeans more militaristic"
Douthat has provided no evidence that this is the case, except using a contrast with the Bush Iraq era, when the (old) Europeans didn't want to get involved with a dumb, ill-prepared American war. Europe's feelings about military power have been - and are still - trending down.
"The time is the late 2020s, let’s say, and the French and Germans and Poles demand that the United States lend our still-unparalleled military strength to a conflict that seems essential to European security — toppling a nascent caliphate in North Africa, or recovering W.M.D. from a collapsing post-Putin Russia."
Uh, and those W.M.D. from a collapsing post-Putin Russia are more likely to be aimed at Europe or the U.S.? Oh, that's right, the U.S.
It's far more likely in the 2020s that China and the U.S. get into an entanglement and the U.S. will come cap in hand to - guess who? - the Europeans by invoking the Nato clause of self-defense. Need one mention that the only time so far the self-defense clause has been invoked was when the U.S. forced the Europeans into a stupid war in Afghanistan, this with the idea of making Europe and not just the U.S. the target of terrorists from that region?
Douthat has provided no evidence that this is the case, except using a contrast with the Bush Iraq era, when the (old) Europeans didn't want to get involved with a dumb, ill-prepared American war. Europe's feelings about military power have been - and are still - trending down.
"The time is the late 2020s, let’s say, and the French and Germans and Poles demand that the United States lend our still-unparalleled military strength to a conflict that seems essential to European security — toppling a nascent caliphate in North Africa, or recovering W.M.D. from a collapsing post-Putin Russia."
Uh, and those W.M.D. from a collapsing post-Putin Russia are more likely to be aimed at Europe or the U.S.? Oh, that's right, the U.S.
It's far more likely in the 2020s that China and the U.S. get into an entanglement and the U.S. will come cap in hand to - guess who? - the Europeans by invoking the Nato clause of self-defense. Need one mention that the only time so far the self-defense clause has been invoked was when the U.S. forced the Europeans into a stupid war in Afghanistan, this with the idea of making Europe and not just the U.S. the target of terrorists from that region?
17
Ross, did you seriously analogize Sanders and Trump? This doesn't hold water.
Senator Sanders has made clear that while he is not an absolute pacifist, he believes that militarism should be only a last resort and, crucially, he believes in the power of diplomacy. He has supported President Obama's accords with Iran and did not join the other Congress members who greeted Netanyahu and his grandstanding over it.
Trump has shown no use for diplomacy. He has vowed to tear up the Iran deal on day one, with nothing to replace it. He can't even find value in the breakthrough with Cuba, no matter how clearly futile the old way.
And unlike Trump, Sanders does not play to peoples' worst instincts, like emphasizing an imaginary wall as a national priority, fear-mongering over refugees, talk of a religious registry, pretending that suicide bombers will be made afraid, etc...
These candidates' views of America and its global role are farther apart than any planets.
Senator Sanders has made clear that while he is not an absolute pacifist, he believes that militarism should be only a last resort and, crucially, he believes in the power of diplomacy. He has supported President Obama's accords with Iran and did not join the other Congress members who greeted Netanyahu and his grandstanding over it.
Trump has shown no use for diplomacy. He has vowed to tear up the Iran deal on day one, with nothing to replace it. He can't even find value in the breakthrough with Cuba, no matter how clearly futile the old way.
And unlike Trump, Sanders does not play to peoples' worst instincts, like emphasizing an imaginary wall as a national priority, fear-mongering over refugees, talk of a religious registry, pretending that suicide bombers will be made afraid, etc...
These candidates' views of America and its global role are farther apart than any planets.
55
Thank you NM. You must realize that the NY Times Editorial Staff have been instructed to put Trump and Sanders lumped together in almost every article to convince their readers that Hillary is the only option for "true" democrats. They play a round robin. Every Day one of the writers has to do this. It has been very consistent and I wait each day to see who is next. Today it was Douthat. Tomorrow it will be probably be Krugman. He's has the Monday spot.
6
America does not flirt with Venus. It is intensely wooing the three monkeys - hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil. Both its talk and its walk are fast becoming opaque, inexplicable, and bordering on the ludicrous.
1
Don't worry, Ross. There is plenty of Martian left in the American psyche and all it will take is an election when the candidate thinks that he/she has a mandate to pursue a large war.
We've had such wars as Vietnam, Iraq, Korea and many smaller ones in Central America and Chile with covert implications.
It can be argued that in its quest to be like Mars, the U.S. hasn't fought a 'just' war since WWII. No danger looking ahead to relinquish the Mars title.
We've had such wars as Vietnam, Iraq, Korea and many smaller ones in Central America and Chile with covert implications.
It can be argued that in its quest to be like Mars, the U.S. hasn't fought a 'just' war since WWII. No danger looking ahead to relinquish the Mars title.
10
Oh Ross-- this is more than a leap--- one that neglects the great pond, and one that fails to recognize the geographic space we occupy on this earth... Europe's humanitarianism is not a fault or weakness, its a strength brought about by centuries of Trumpian attempts at walling out and purging innocents.
11
"... Americans insist that the people of the Middle East will come to their senses and resolve their differences if left to their own devices, [but] ... absent external involvement, the region's leaders consistently opt for strategies that exacerbate conflict and feed perpetual instability. ... Without decisive outside intervention, [civil wars] usually last decades. ... There is no reason to expect the Middle East's conflicts to burn out on their own.
"... It is fashionable to blame the region's travails on ancient hatreds or the poor cartography of Mr. Sykes and Monsieur Picot, [but] the real problems began with the modern Arab state system. ... As if [their] failure ... and the outbreak of four civil wars weren't bad enough ... the United States has distanced itself from the region.
"The first priority should be to shut down the current civil wars. ... That ... entail[s] sending at least small numbers of U.S. combat forces to Iraq (perhaps 10,000) and potentially Syria. ... Because containing the spillover ... is so difficult, stepping back means risking the near-term collapse of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Turkey." ~ Kenneth M. Pollack
"Ignoring the provinces risks allowing ISIS to grow. ... Charles Lister ... has described [them] as part of ISIS' 'ink spot' strategy. ... As the ink spots expand, the borders will meet up, forming a larger entity." ~ Daniel Byman
Bernie 2016? Thanks, but no.
"... It is fashionable to blame the region's travails on ancient hatreds or the poor cartography of Mr. Sykes and Monsieur Picot, [but] the real problems began with the modern Arab state system. ... As if [their] failure ... and the outbreak of four civil wars weren't bad enough ... the United States has distanced itself from the region.
"The first priority should be to shut down the current civil wars. ... That ... entail[s] sending at least small numbers of U.S. combat forces to Iraq (perhaps 10,000) and potentially Syria. ... Because containing the spillover ... is so difficult, stepping back means risking the near-term collapse of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Turkey." ~ Kenneth M. Pollack
"Ignoring the provinces risks allowing ISIS to grow. ... Charles Lister ... has described [them] as part of ISIS' 'ink spot' strategy. ... As the ink spots expand, the borders will meet up, forming a larger entity." ~ Daniel Byman
Bernie 2016? Thanks, but no.
1
It's a very dangerous world and to think otherwise is delusional. The European countries benefited greatly from the American military umbrella. Obviously, this cannot continue indefinitely. The Europeans will need to ramp up all different kinds of defenses, both military and civil. Their peril is much greater than ours. The same goes for South Korea, Japan and our supposed Middle East allies, though the threats are not all the same. Radical Islamists are the only beneficiaries of a chaotic world. Securing nuclear materials and preventing mass population migrations will need to be at the top of the agenda for everyone.
15
The columnist doesn't mention the utter failure of the Iraq and Afghanistan military misadventures started by the Bush administration. We all know by now (or should) there were no weapons of mass destruction, no real way to unify the disparate tribes of either "nation," and certainly no "cakewalk" with locals tossing flowers at our conquering Americans heroes.
The fiasco of Iraq, particularly, is the prime reason Americans have become more like Venus than Mars. An improvidently planned military mission based on faulty intelligence, entered into in bad faith, carried out with maximum ineptitude -- can you blame us for being wary of more of the dreadful same?
The fiasco of Iraq, particularly, is the prime reason Americans have become more like Venus than Mars. An improvidently planned military mission based on faulty intelligence, entered into in bad faith, carried out with maximum ineptitude -- can you blame us for being wary of more of the dreadful same?
95
Richard Grayson,
Heck, keep going back. Iran. Israel. Our previous adventure in Afghan.
Crusades?!! Man we suck at this.
Shall we get into all the coups in S. America too?
How about it Hillary supporters?!
I hope we have shame. Me thinks not.
Heck, keep going back. Iran. Israel. Our previous adventure in Afghan.
Crusades?!! Man we suck at this.
Shall we get into all the coups in S. America too?
How about it Hillary supporters?!
I hope we have shame. Me thinks not.
1
The European elite may still believe "the Kantian dream of perpetual peace", but the conservatives in this country obviously believe in the Cheney-Bush nightmare of perpetual war.
A "Socialistic administration in Washington" would be a dream come true. As far as being hypothetically asked to aid in recovering W.M. D. in the future - been there, done that - it didn't work out too well. So, I would be fine with "not this time" - hypothetically speaking. The West and Russia have shown over time that they are not really good at dealing with theocratically controlled ideologies.
The problem with Socialism is exactly what? People might actually live happier lives as they do in Denmark?
A "Socialistic administration in Washington" would be a dream come true. As far as being hypothetically asked to aid in recovering W.M. D. in the future - been there, done that - it didn't work out too well. So, I would be fine with "not this time" - hypothetically speaking. The West and Russia have shown over time that they are not really good at dealing with theocratically controlled ideologies.
The problem with Socialism is exactly what? People might actually live happier lives as they do in Denmark?
26
The Cold War was the anomaly. George Washington warmed against "foreign entanglements." America might not really have gotten fully involved in WWII if not for Pearl Harbor. The Soviets were seen as presenting a global threat to America's economic well being. This fear was heightened by the "red scare" and other suggestions that the Soviet Union wanted to topple America itself. In the absence of such threats it is not too surprising that Americans want to leave Europe to the Europeans.
11
The Cold War was an anomaly, and was launched on the basis of one memo (a long one) from George Kennan. He quickly changed his mind on the need to contain the USSR by military means, but too late. The genie was out, and the Pentagon ruled.
2
Bah. I'll believe the Europeans are turning to Mars when German, Italian, and Swedish boots are on the ground in Syria and Libya.
4
They are not going to take over American disasters. We did those.
2
The "post-historical" war outbreak to jar our sensibilities won't be in Europe. It will be in Korea, outbreaking April 15th (Kim Jung-Un's birthday. It will be a massive, European-style land war with the biggest artillery barrage since WWII, blitzkrieg, a massive state-sponsored terror campaign, fears that either (or both) sides will resort to tactical nuclear weapons, and civilian casualties and displacement equal to the worst of 1939-45 in Europe.
This time the UN and England will not be joining the USA as allies. For one thing, there won't be time. For another, Putin is likely to use the Korean catastrophe in less than two weeks to launch his own new excellent adventure.
Neither will China intervene to save the American bacon as Korea explodes in smoke (literally MILLIONS of shells and rockets flying around) chaos (radio and GPS jamming) and frantic political upside downism in the West.
It is not true that American high tech conventional weapons and air power can defend against a truly massive 1950ish Russian style rocket and artillery bombardment followed by an armored invasion that outnumbers South Korean and American troops by three to one.
Old School Russian weapons and rocket tactics work just fine. I know, I was bombarded by them in Da Nang (1972.)
America does not have the conventional war firepower it had as recently as Gulf War One. That has eroded away. To stop Kim Jung-Un doing the attack he plans will take nukes or nothing.
Question: is Obama from Mars?
This time the UN and England will not be joining the USA as allies. For one thing, there won't be time. For another, Putin is likely to use the Korean catastrophe in less than two weeks to launch his own new excellent adventure.
Neither will China intervene to save the American bacon as Korea explodes in smoke (literally MILLIONS of shells and rockets flying around) chaos (radio and GPS jamming) and frantic political upside downism in the West.
It is not true that American high tech conventional weapons and air power can defend against a truly massive 1950ish Russian style rocket and artillery bombardment followed by an armored invasion that outnumbers South Korean and American troops by three to one.
Old School Russian weapons and rocket tactics work just fine. I know, I was bombarded by them in Da Nang (1972.)
America does not have the conventional war firepower it had as recently as Gulf War One. That has eroded away. To stop Kim Jung-Un doing the attack he plans will take nukes or nothing.
Question: is Obama from Mars?
2
Engagement with the rest of the world by the US not involving military adventurism is not isolationism. Could advocates for a more militaristic approach to foreign policy please state where our military operations have furthered US interests or world peace. Some were less bad than others and a few had mixed results but I would like to hear a case made where US use of military forces has furthered US interests or made the world safer and you have tao include the law of unitended consequences.
30
Wayne Griswald,
Does the Westward expansion with the Indian wars count?
See, all you have to do is exterminate and the problem goes away.
Aaaahhh...well maybe not so much... I give.
Does the Westward expansion with the Indian wars count?
See, all you have to do is exterminate and the problem goes away.
Aaaahhh...well maybe not so much... I give.
3
The simple explanation is that Kagan mistakenly thought that because the Bush cabal was from Mars, America as such was. There was no popular enthusiasm in this country for the neocon Iraq caper. There was passive acceptance because the administration insisted it was necessary to protect the United States from "terrorism," that we would win quickly, easily and cheaply, and that we would find Saddam' hidden H-bombs. These have all since been shown to have been gross misrepresentations (except where they were outright lies).
As for Europe, it didn't oppose Bush's war on kumbaya grounds. Rather, it feared, and said at the time, that overthrowing Saddam could destabilize the entire region, with possible serious consequences for Eurasian nations. That's exactly what has happened: failed states, civil wars, masses of refugees, and the rise of Iran.
As for Europe, it didn't oppose Bush's war on kumbaya grounds. Rather, it feared, and said at the time, that overthrowing Saddam could destabilize the entire region, with possible serious consequences for Eurasian nations. That's exactly what has happened: failed states, civil wars, masses of refugees, and the rise of Iran.
184
Rossian psychoanalyzing -- the nouveau refuge of ideological scoundrels.
4
"There was passive acceptance because the administration insisted it was necessary to protect the United States from "terrorism," that we would win quickly, easily and cheaply, and that we would find Saddam' hidden H-bombs." It's time we recognize that W and Cheney used terrorism here in America to deceive and confuse Americans into accepting the lie that Saddam Hussein collaborated in 9/11, and had weapons of mass destruction. The Bush administration was government by terror. Anyone who challenged them was "unpatriotic, weak, or uninformed". There is no evidence that Bush ever told the truth about 9/11, Iraq, WMD, or the financial melt-down.
To paraphrase Lincoln: you can terrorize all of the people some of the time, and you can terrorize some of the people all of the time, but you can't terrorize all of the people all of the time.
To paraphrase Lincoln: you can terrorize all of the people some of the time, and you can terrorize some of the people all of the time, but you can't terrorize all of the people all of the time.
4
Mrs Clinton is on track to be president. She will be president until 2024.
The GOP went nuts when a black president was elected, they will go nuts when a woman is elected, virtually ensuring another Democratic presidency. That person will own decisions of war in the 2020 and possibly 2030s. The long arc of demographics bend this way. I am fine with this.
You see when you've had privilege, equality feels like oppression. And Douthat's column is like a reading the diary of a privileged white man trying to cope.
The GOP went nuts when a black president was elected, they will go nuts when a woman is elected, virtually ensuring another Democratic presidency. That person will own decisions of war in the 2020 and possibly 2030s. The long arc of demographics bend this way. I am fine with this.
You see when you've had privilege, equality feels like oppression. And Douthat's column is like a reading the diary of a privileged white man trying to cope.
123
Ross, we hardly need to travel to Mars and Venus to understand the divergence in how the human animal deals with "threats."
Instead, we should think of it as the "yang" and the "yin"of human nature.
The "yang" side results from the release of primal neuro-chemIcals giving rise to FEAR in the face of "threats" (through a withdrawal of endorphins along with a release of testosterone and adrenaline, etc). Then there's that most potent antidote to fear --- POWER which, when pursued and especially when achieved, provides a RUSH of endorphins, a virtual neuro-chemical high.
Yes, Ross, your lust for power and control over what you perceive as "threats" is a simple Darwinian survival addiction to brain chemicals.
The "yin" on the other hand arises as a result of the rush of neuro-chemicals like oxytocin and norepinephrine and dopamine causing a consequent FEELING of empathy which gives rise to those "better angels" of our nature like understanding, compassion, forgiveness and love.
So far in history, the yang has predominated. There's no rush like the rush of POWER. And there's a very good survival reason for that. As proof, witness us rich, sated, self-indulgent, POWERFUL Westerners with our rich, sated, self-indulgent lifestyle. We've WON.
Until, we haven't.
Will there be, in order for the planet to survive all this "yang" fear/hatred/power lust ,a paradigm shift from "yang" to "yin"?
I doubt it as it just FEELS so good to be rich, sated and self-indulgent.
Instead, we should think of it as the "yang" and the "yin"of human nature.
The "yang" side results from the release of primal neuro-chemIcals giving rise to FEAR in the face of "threats" (through a withdrawal of endorphins along with a release of testosterone and adrenaline, etc). Then there's that most potent antidote to fear --- POWER which, when pursued and especially when achieved, provides a RUSH of endorphins, a virtual neuro-chemical high.
Yes, Ross, your lust for power and control over what you perceive as "threats" is a simple Darwinian survival addiction to brain chemicals.
The "yin" on the other hand arises as a result of the rush of neuro-chemicals like oxytocin and norepinephrine and dopamine causing a consequent FEELING of empathy which gives rise to those "better angels" of our nature like understanding, compassion, forgiveness and love.
So far in history, the yang has predominated. There's no rush like the rush of POWER. And there's a very good survival reason for that. As proof, witness us rich, sated, self-indulgent, POWERFUL Westerners with our rich, sated, self-indulgent lifestyle. We've WON.
Until, we haven't.
Will there be, in order for the planet to survive all this "yang" fear/hatred/power lust ,a paradigm shift from "yang" to "yin"?
I doubt it as it just FEELS so good to be rich, sated and self-indulgent.
13
Use of the yin and yang principles is a favorite device of mine as well. It helps in discussions of equality by invoking the concepts of balance, equanimity, etc. It is particularly useful in feminist discussions where rather than personalize or demonize the other gender we can talk about imbalance, fairness, etc.
I wish the Donald and Cruz had heard about yin and yang. Our politics would be a lot less confrontational and ugly and extreme.
I wish the Donald and Cruz had heard about yin and yang. Our politics would be a lot less confrontational and ugly and extreme.
1
Europe's "weakness" is largely self-imposed. I can't imagine (and hope against) Germany seriously rearming, but France? France is reluctant to go to war, but they certainly seem to have the capacity to fight one. So does the UK, but it probably wouldn't engage seriously unless France started losing.
1
France is at war in Africa.
2
Europeans learned something from their adventures in colonialism: they realize how difficult it is to enforce compliance within their sphere of influence. They have learned that exporting Western culture and values to the third world is a fool's errand. It took an American idiot to try to bring democracy to Iraq in the name of nation-building.
The European concern with ISIS and terrorism has nothing to do with the Nitze-Wolfowitz fantasy that Arab crowds would greet Americans as liberators. Indeed, Europe's terror problem is not really a matter of foreign relations: all of their terrorists (and most of ours) were native Europeans. The Paris bombers and the Charlie Hebdo attackers were both third generation immigrants. That doesn't sound like a problem with a group in Iraq: it is a problem with internal minorities. So Ross' idea that Europeans will come to us to dislodge some despot are as flaky as the Bush doctrine of exporting democracy to the middle east.
The European concern with ISIS and terrorism has nothing to do with the Nitze-Wolfowitz fantasy that Arab crowds would greet Americans as liberators. Indeed, Europe's terror problem is not really a matter of foreign relations: all of their terrorists (and most of ours) were native Europeans. The Paris bombers and the Charlie Hebdo attackers were both third generation immigrants. That doesn't sound like a problem with a group in Iraq: it is a problem with internal minorities. So Ross' idea that Europeans will come to us to dislodge some despot are as flaky as the Bush doctrine of exporting democracy to the middle east.
105
Mohammed Atta et al were hardly native Americans.
JPE -- They also were not refugees or immigrants. They had temporary visas.
3
That foreign policy theorist Robert Kagan is part of the original hard core of neocons who did the Bush Admin fiasco. He and his wife are now part of Team Hillary.
I don't want his thinking featured as insight, especially not new insight, without mention of his long history of twisted failure.
I don't want a Presidential candidate who relies on him and his, and Hillary does. She put his wife in charge in Ukraine as Asst Sec of State, and that gave us this disaster including the infamous "F the EU."
We don't need Kagan's "seamless flows." We need him gone, and his wife, and his new sponsor too.
Does Ross even know that he is promoting Team Hillary? Is that his new way to deal with the Republican Party fiasco, elect the Republican-Lite instead?
I don't want his thinking featured as insight, especially not new insight, without mention of his long history of twisted failure.
I don't want a Presidential candidate who relies on him and his, and Hillary does. She put his wife in charge in Ukraine as Asst Sec of State, and that gave us this disaster including the infamous "F the EU."
We don't need Kagan's "seamless flows." We need him gone, and his wife, and his new sponsor too.
Does Ross even know that he is promoting Team Hillary? Is that his new way to deal with the Republican Party fiasco, elect the Republican-Lite instead?
236
Wow! I didn't know about the Kagan-Clinton connection but I guess it makes sense. If she can have an affinity for Kissinger, then...
Eww!
Eww!
73
This. 1000 This. Kagan - like Bill Kristol and the rest of the neocon charlatans - are still treated as credible by the mainstream media, despite their gargantuan miscalculations and/or deceptions, and their cheerleading of the biggest American foreign policy blunder since at least Vietnam.
It speaks volumes about the corruption of the political and media establishment - including Douthat and the Times (and Clinton) - that these people's views are still given credence.
It speaks volumes about the corruption of the political and media establishment - including Douthat and the Times (and Clinton) - that these people's views are still given credence.
5
As a supporter of Senator Sanders, I have contributed money, time, and practical efforts to convince those on the fence why I think Bernie's grass is greener.
But referring to Ms. Clinton as "Republican-Lite" reminds me all too strongly of the decades-long GOP effort to demonize anyone who disagrees with them, especially when used by those on the left in an effort to paint Hillary with a brush that compares her political stance with candidates like Cruz, Trump & Rubio.
We are almost through two terms of a duly elected president who was faced with an unprecedented situation where the opposition flatly refused to even consider any form of compromise, even though compromise is at the heart of functioning democracies.
I dread the thought of Democrats taking up the Republican mantle of polarization; demanding that every candidate espouse the same platform as an oath of political fealty.
Do I hope that Sen. Sanders wins the presidency? Yes. Does that mean I think Ms. Clinton would be a presidential disaster on any level that even approaches my fear of whoever the GOP nominates?
No. I mean, let's not get crazy here. Let the Republicans keep that title. They earned it.
But referring to Ms. Clinton as "Republican-Lite" reminds me all too strongly of the decades-long GOP effort to demonize anyone who disagrees with them, especially when used by those on the left in an effort to paint Hillary with a brush that compares her political stance with candidates like Cruz, Trump & Rubio.
We are almost through two terms of a duly elected president who was faced with an unprecedented situation where the opposition flatly refused to even consider any form of compromise, even though compromise is at the heart of functioning democracies.
I dread the thought of Democrats taking up the Republican mantle of polarization; demanding that every candidate espouse the same platform as an oath of political fealty.
Do I hope that Sen. Sanders wins the presidency? Yes. Does that mean I think Ms. Clinton would be a presidential disaster on any level that even approaches my fear of whoever the GOP nominates?
No. I mean, let's not get crazy here. Let the Republicans keep that title. They earned it.
13
Kagan’s “most Europeans” used a claimed belief that they were “citizens of a posthistorical paradise of peace and relative prosperity, in which threats could be safely managed without military force, and systems of transnational negotiation and cooperation were making war and nationalism obsolete” as mere rationalization for cynical knowledge that the world wasn’t any more pacific a place than it ever was, but that the U.S. would pay to protect them anyway … so why bother paying for defense when there were so many demands for social welfare?
Americans, on the other hand, didn’t need to grind a Hobbesian lens through which to view reality – they knew that if they didn’t protect the world, nobody else would and what we see today would be the outcome. We never really did have a choice, for to tolerate for the past seven years what we have represents either monumental innocence or active evil – all in the name of a higher priority given to free cheese. And we wonder why so many of us are massively disillusioned with our politics, and why they support Donald Trump and Ted Cruz.
It will be interesting to see if Ross’s theory about a Mars-Venus role reversal has any legs. It’s one thing to stand at the edge of a fight and egg on the participants, so long as the screamers don’t need to actually CONTRIBUTE anything to the fight other than their cheers and jeers. It’s quite another to redirect resources from butter to guns and materially get in the fight oneself.
Americans, on the other hand, didn’t need to grind a Hobbesian lens through which to view reality – they knew that if they didn’t protect the world, nobody else would and what we see today would be the outcome. We never really did have a choice, for to tolerate for the past seven years what we have represents either monumental innocence or active evil – all in the name of a higher priority given to free cheese. And we wonder why so many of us are massively disillusioned with our politics, and why they support Donald Trump and Ted Cruz.
It will be interesting to see if Ross’s theory about a Mars-Venus role reversal has any legs. It’s one thing to stand at the edge of a fight and egg on the participants, so long as the screamers don’t need to actually CONTRIBUTE anything to the fight other than their cheers and jeers. It’s quite another to redirect resources from butter to guns and materially get in the fight oneself.
9
"Americans, on the other hand, didn’t need to grind a Hobbesian lens through which to view reality – they knew that if they didn’t protect the world, nobody else would and what we see today would be the outcome"
What we see today is the result of a completely misguided ME policy since the CIA ouster of Mossadegh. And the icing is the stupid march of follies into Iraq, destabilizing the area and creating land for ISIS.
Sigh.
What we see today is the result of a completely misguided ME policy since the CIA ouster of Mossadegh. And the icing is the stupid march of follies into Iraq, destabilizing the area and creating land for ISIS.
Sigh.
63
Besides Mars and Venus, there is the distinction between smart and stupid. In Iran, we subordinated our national interest in promoting democracy to the interest of a major industry and overthrew an elected government. In Vietnam, we fought to keep the dominos from falling. We lost, and the dominoes did not fall. We allied with a country whose second biggest export was religious extremism, and it took many suicide missions before we began to question whether that alliance was really beneficial to us.
Our army and our worldwide presence are shaped by the necessity to keep the military-industrial complex fed and to find something for all three branches of the service to do. Our innocence and moral goodness have the same sort of mythic existence as the Southern nature protected by segregation.
What we have seen in the last seven years is the result of what happened in the seven years before that -- the invasion of Iraq. The way a weaker opponent wins is to get the stronger opponent to waste his strength, and George W. Bush could not have done much more if he had been on Al Qaeda's payroll. The past seven years is slow recovery from two mainly-self-inflicted wounds.
The Neocons are stupid Mars. They thought that a democracy would spring forth in Iraq, and were totally unprepared when it didnt. For all their credentials, they dont know what they are doing. We should go with the cheese and smart Mars; stupid Mars is too expensive.
Our army and our worldwide presence are shaped by the necessity to keep the military-industrial complex fed and to find something for all three branches of the service to do. Our innocence and moral goodness have the same sort of mythic existence as the Southern nature protected by segregation.
What we have seen in the last seven years is the result of what happened in the seven years before that -- the invasion of Iraq. The way a weaker opponent wins is to get the stronger opponent to waste his strength, and George W. Bush could not have done much more if he had been on Al Qaeda's payroll. The past seven years is slow recovery from two mainly-self-inflicted wounds.
The Neocons are stupid Mars. They thought that a democracy would spring forth in Iraq, and were totally unprepared when it didnt. For all their credentials, they dont know what they are doing. We should go with the cheese and smart Mars; stupid Mars is too expensive.
98
Richard reminds me of the German professor in the book and film "All Quiet On The Western Front" who exhorted his high school students to volunteer for the trenches.
What's your military background, Richard, other than having close family members fight? I'll tell you: the same as mine. Nada. Although, like yourself, I have a parent and grandparent with actual military service: a grandfather served in Tsar Nicholas II's army; and a father who fought against the Bolsheviks in the Russian-Poland War of 1919-1920.
I'm particularly interested in your theory of "guns vs. butter"; how if we just spent more on guns and less on social programs and not raise any taxes to pay for said military build-up, we could all sing: "Kumbaya".
Tell me about it in more detail, Richard. Your many fans wish to know more.
What's your military background, Richard, other than having close family members fight? I'll tell you: the same as mine. Nada. Although, like yourself, I have a parent and grandparent with actual military service: a grandfather served in Tsar Nicholas II's army; and a father who fought against the Bolsheviks in the Russian-Poland War of 1919-1920.
I'm particularly interested in your theory of "guns vs. butter"; how if we just spent more on guns and less on social programs and not raise any taxes to pay for said military build-up, we could all sing: "Kumbaya".
Tell me about it in more detail, Richard. Your many fans wish to know more.
30
All it will take is for ISIS to acquire nuclear weapons to make us realize that we're neither from Mars nor Venus, but that we all hale from a tenuous spot on a tiny, fragile Earth.
The only defense against Putin's nationalistic aggression or Assad's genocide or ISIS's insanity is for a coordinated international response to all forms of global terror. We wouldn't be wondering how to handle the flood of refugees escaping violence if the violence had been stemmed early on.
We no longer have the luxury of allowing strong-armed monsters to run countries any way they choose, or pretend that religious groups are immune from criticism when they weaponize their theologies.
A strong military might have been the answer in decades past, when the enemy could be understood, and circled on a map. Now the enemy is like a virus, too small and diffuse to see, and powered by ideas that can't be killed with bullets. How do we deter an enemy that welcomes death? What happens to military might when bombs are less valuable than knowing how to unlock a cell phone?
We helped to destabilized the Middle East, lured by the fantasy of quick military victory, the promise of oil and the support of hawks like Hillary. Too bad Sanders is running now, instead of back when W. was handed the presidency. Mars won't help us today, and neither will Venus. But a little Scandinavia might have just the ticket to avoid this present-day Armageddon.
The only defense against Putin's nationalistic aggression or Assad's genocide or ISIS's insanity is for a coordinated international response to all forms of global terror. We wouldn't be wondering how to handle the flood of refugees escaping violence if the violence had been stemmed early on.
We no longer have the luxury of allowing strong-armed monsters to run countries any way they choose, or pretend that religious groups are immune from criticism when they weaponize their theologies.
A strong military might have been the answer in decades past, when the enemy could be understood, and circled on a map. Now the enemy is like a virus, too small and diffuse to see, and powered by ideas that can't be killed with bullets. How do we deter an enemy that welcomes death? What happens to military might when bombs are less valuable than knowing how to unlock a cell phone?
We helped to destabilized the Middle East, lured by the fantasy of quick military victory, the promise of oil and the support of hawks like Hillary. Too bad Sanders is running now, instead of back when W. was handed the presidency. Mars won't help us today, and neither will Venus. But a little Scandinavia might have just the ticket to avoid this present-day Armageddon.
212
You deter an enemy that welcomes death by obliging them. Of course, that DOES require a strong military and other than a defeatist attitude that the world is just too complicated a place to make sense of it, and certainly too complex to ever make our children relatively safe again.
8
Yes. Technology advances, its course cannot reverse. And its focus is ever on making weapons smaller and more powerful. Sooner or later, poof. Goodbye Washington? London? Tel Aviv? Will we even know who was responsible?
Is fascism our future?
Have a nice day.
Is fascism our future?
Have a nice day.
2
So where sits AQ?
Answer: everywhere where there is a tiny vacuum. If the vacuum gets large, then it's ISIS.
Answer: everywhere where there is a tiny vacuum. If the vacuum gets large, then it's ISIS.
Europe never really lost what ailed it, which is the same thing that ails the more conservative and neoliberal side of America: a sense of material and cultural supremacy that are neither deserved nor, in the long-run, healthy.
US economic, foreign, and military policy of the 2000's is what is now causing the disruptions we are seeing in Europe and the response is an old and familiar one, though there are forces that are attempting to suppress the knee-jerk reaction to reach back to xenophobia.
The question is can we learn, as societies, to suppress the worst in us and learn from the past? Not without greater civic involvement. Not without civil rights movements that thrive. I addressed a very specific aspect of that in the context of US politics recently. http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-25C and I am writing about populism in the context of today's populism in America through two contemporary thinkers. There is an elegance and intelligence in the politics of change that is seldom covered in the mainstream press. http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-28Q
"And a Socialist administration in Washington, backed by more than a few Trumpian Nationalists in Congress, looks across the ocean at Europe’s wars and whispers, “not this time.”"
Trumpism is a kind of nothingness in the sense that there really is no Trump doctrine that departs from current conservative policies. The tenor of his speech may be different, but his ideas are all the same familiar ones. Trumpism is a myth. http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-27G
US economic, foreign, and military policy of the 2000's is what is now causing the disruptions we are seeing in Europe and the response is an old and familiar one, though there are forces that are attempting to suppress the knee-jerk reaction to reach back to xenophobia.
The question is can we learn, as societies, to suppress the worst in us and learn from the past? Not without greater civic involvement. Not without civil rights movements that thrive. I addressed a very specific aspect of that in the context of US politics recently. http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-25C and I am writing about populism in the context of today's populism in America through two contemporary thinkers. There is an elegance and intelligence in the politics of change that is seldom covered in the mainstream press. http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-28Q
"And a Socialist administration in Washington, backed by more than a few Trumpian Nationalists in Congress, looks across the ocean at Europe’s wars and whispers, “not this time.”"
Trumpism is a kind of nothingness in the sense that there really is no Trump doctrine that departs from current conservative policies. The tenor of his speech may be different, but his ideas are all the same familiar ones. Trumpism is a myth. http://wp.me/p2KJ3H-27G
48
Most American since Vietnam know never again, war kills the soul of the country along with decent young men and women.
It is not the American people who are Martians it is the elite that sell us fear.