Minimum wage doesn't affect that many. Even at $15/hr. phased in over a couple of years, the number of workers in metropolitan NYC who will benefit is low., and that makes up most of the state work force. Democrats claim minimum wage is critical to fair pay. Republicans claim it distorts the market and causes unemployment. In truth, it's a big deal about not much. Few benefit, few get laid off, few are affected at all.
2
The other day I watched the 1982 movie Fast Times at Ridgemont High on TV. Parts of it are still funny. But what is striking about the movie is that many of the high school seniors depicted in the movie have after school jobs. At the time it seemed perfectly natural. (I had an after school job in the '60's.)
This is not so common today. An increase in the minimum wage will make it even less common.
This is not so common today. An increase in the minimum wage will make it even less common.
4
Wow this one sided editorial mentions Seattle but doesn't mention the thousands of jobs that were lost to the suburbs of Seattle because of this. Get ready for more misery NYC.
5
Live it to the comfortable middle class readers of The New York Times to think of all the reasons why workers should remain in poverty even when working 40 hours a week.
Don't worry, the workers will still be poor. (Isn't that what you want?)
Try living on $15 an hour, just try it.
Don't worry, the workers will still be poor. (Isn't that what you want?)
Try living on $15 an hour, just try it.
3
I think most economists believe raising the minimum wage across the US to $15/hr is a bad idea. I think a tiered system with an exception for migrant laborers is a better solution. $9 for rural, $12 for suburban, and $15 for urban counties. I say this as I feel the Bern. Income inequality is a problem, but it needs intelligent & appropriate solutions.
1
I made 10 an hour after graduating with an Ivy League STEM degree and an unblemished perfect criminal record in the early 2000s. Although it would have liked to find 15 dollar an hour job with no relevant skills or experience, I used it as a stepping stone for several months to what appears to be a very fine career. I think it is wonderful that people are looking out for young, privileged and wealthy well-educated like I used to be. Thanks. Now, about your realism problem. 15 is not an appropriate minimum wage because it will screen out all people with a record, most college graduates, and virtually all non college graduates from ever beginning a career. The misanthropic sweep of this is a little out of character for the left, but lets watch it carefully.
4
As the $15/hr hysteria takes hold........Never forget that businesses large and small; unlike the Gubbermint; must operate at financially SOLVENT levels. As increased money is moved to pay for human workers the cost/benefit analysis becomes mandatory. Automation of processes becomes more cost effective and other will be laid off, fired, or hours worked will be reduced.
Be careful what you wish for.......
Where do I place my order---------right over there where that iPad terminal is set up, you can pay with your smartphone........Thank you for chosing blah blah blah..............
Be careful what you wish for.......
Where do I place my order---------right over there where that iPad terminal is set up, you can pay with your smartphone........Thank you for chosing blah blah blah..............
8
This law will be devastating for the lowest-skilled and least educated people in New York. Most young people who barely graduate or do not graduate from a failing public school will never get an entry level job at $15 per hour. They will then be permanently locked out of the work force and pushed into permanent welfare or a life of crime. Minorities who are disproportionately victims of failing public schools will suffer most.
The vast majority of minimum wage earners are single young people getting valuable work experience in entry-level jobs, not heads of households. Minimum wage laws are terrible public policy that primarily benefit labor unions, not minimum wage employees.
Pass this law and watch minority youth unemployment soar above 50%.
The vast majority of minimum wage earners are single young people getting valuable work experience in entry-level jobs, not heads of households. Minimum wage laws are terrible public policy that primarily benefit labor unions, not minimum wage employees.
Pass this law and watch minority youth unemployment soar above 50%.
5
The marketplace decides what a salary should be, just as it decides what goods and services should cost. Attempts by Big Government to upset this fact of life are 100% guaranteed to end in disaster
1
In a healthy free market economy, wages rise when a growing economy causes businesses to hire to meet demand, resulting in a scarcity of labor and higher wages. It's simple supply and demand; higher wages are a side effect of economic growth. That hasn't happened because Obama has destroyed the economy with high taxes, Draconian regulation, and ObamaCare. Every time you libs drool and foam at the mouth for $15/hour, you are tacitly admitting that Obama has failed to create a growing economy. There's no growth, and you can't simply mandate its side effects
5
Paying people a living wage is generally a good thing, but there really is a downside. $15 a hour is a big increase over what many employees are now paid, particularly outside NYC and it's prosperous suburbs. There's a really good chance a large increase in the minimum wage will force many businesses, especially small businesses, to close, move out of state, or cut jobs by implementing automation. Unemployment may well rise considerably. This will help no one.
Sometimes the invisible hand of the market, cruel as it sometimes seems, is best. And I fear this may be one of those situations.
Sometimes the invisible hand of the market, cruel as it sometimes seems, is best. And I fear this may be one of those situations.
4
A $15 minimum wage is 110% guaranteed to increase unemployment. The laws of math and of supply and demand cannot be repealed by the crackpot will of radical leftists. Businesses WILL reduce the number of employees an automate. What will you fanatics do next, mandate hiring??
8
The fact that no one is proposing an immediate increase to $15/hr or higher says everything you need to know about the minimum wage. If there were no negative repercussions of an increase we'd make the change immediately and make it large.
But I do hope New York makes this change. We can finally get a real world test of the effectiveness of minimum wage increases.
But I do hope New York makes this change. We can finally get a real world test of the effectiveness of minimum wage increases.
3
Milton Friedman:
The fact is, the programs labeled as being “for the poor,” or “for the needy,” almost always have effects exactly the opposite of those which their well-intentioned sponsors intend them to have.
Take the minimum wage law. Its well-meaning sponsors – there are always in these cases two groups of sponsors – there are the well-meaning sponsors and there are the special interests, who are using the well-meaning sponsors as front men. You almost always when you have bad programs have an unholy coalition of the do-gooders and the special interest. The minimum wage law is as clear a case as you could want. The special interests are of course the trade unions – the monopolistic trade craft unions. The do-gooders believe that by passing a law saying that nobody shall get less than $9 per hour (adjusted for today) or whatever the minimum wage is, you are helping poor people who need the money. You are doing nothing of the kind. What you are doing is to assure, that people whose skills, are not sufficient to justify that kind of a wage will be unemployed.
Thus, the consequences of minimum wage laws have been almost wholly bad. We have increased unemployment and increased poverty.
Moreover, the effects have been concentrated on the groups that the do-gooders would most like to help. The people who have been hurt most by the minimum wage laws are the blacks. I have often said that the most anti-black law on the books of this land is the minimum wage law.
The fact is, the programs labeled as being “for the poor,” or “for the needy,” almost always have effects exactly the opposite of those which their well-intentioned sponsors intend them to have.
Take the minimum wage law. Its well-meaning sponsors – there are always in these cases two groups of sponsors – there are the well-meaning sponsors and there are the special interests, who are using the well-meaning sponsors as front men. You almost always when you have bad programs have an unholy coalition of the do-gooders and the special interest. The minimum wage law is as clear a case as you could want. The special interests are of course the trade unions – the monopolistic trade craft unions. The do-gooders believe that by passing a law saying that nobody shall get less than $9 per hour (adjusted for today) or whatever the minimum wage is, you are helping poor people who need the money. You are doing nothing of the kind. What you are doing is to assure, that people whose skills, are not sufficient to justify that kind of a wage will be unemployed.
Thus, the consequences of minimum wage laws have been almost wholly bad. We have increased unemployment and increased poverty.
Moreover, the effects have been concentrated on the groups that the do-gooders would most like to help. The people who have been hurt most by the minimum wage laws are the blacks. I have often said that the most anti-black law on the books of this land is the minimum wage law.
7
What exactly is the magic around $15? Why not make it a $100 an hour and everything will be even better?
Why emphasize to people that education and training matter? Clearly to Cuomo those meaning nothing.
Why emphasize to people that education and training matter? Clearly to Cuomo those meaning nothing.
8
A $15 minimum wage will just lead to general commodity cost inflation - everyday items like milk, bread, gas, and rents will cost more - as well as less unployment, especially jobs that are currently primarily held by the young, poor, and urban.
Employers, in the services industry for sure, will accelerate automation and the use of robotics. Is happening anyway.
Having a government set a floor wage is just a fun game, quick "fix" that does more harm than good.
Employers, in the services industry for sure, will accelerate automation and the use of robotics. Is happening anyway.
Having a government set a floor wage is just a fun game, quick "fix" that does more harm than good.
6
By 2021, workers will need a minimum wage of $25/hour to make ends meet. We need a $15/hour minimum wage TODAY.
3
$15/hr is a completely arbitrary number that I guess sounds nice to pandering politicians and "progressives". Where are the studies showing that raising the minimum wage to this level won't negatively impact employment? Why does it make sense to have the same minimum wage in NYC as it does in Utica? I've yet to see any convincing evidence. I'm center-left but the $15/hr minimum wage is liberal fantasy thinking at it's finest.
7
When New York's $15 minimum wage takes full effect, today's minimum wage earners will have rightfully doubled their income and ALL that money will be reinvested back into our economy. Where's the bad in that?
3
Have they doubled their skills to count to one, put it in a box and seal it or flip a burger. Didn't think so, employers will figure out a way to reduce or control labor costs; automation, less employees, higher quotas or standards, outsourcing, etc, etc. Already we are seeing lots of new jobs at 29 hours per week to circumvent Obummercare or new smaller entities with less than 50 employees . You can raise the minimum but you can't fix stupid. NY and CA are in a race to lose employees to RTW states or states with lower cost structures.
5
The NY Times supports a minimum wage of $15, but doesn't support the presidential candidate who has made the need for living and livable wages, $15 being his touchpoint...a central plank in his platform? And you guys are for Hillary because....?
3
ugh. Why is the minimum wage a political issue? Why is the approach never sensible? Why can't these politicians say the minimum wage needs to be tied to COLA index and not determined by a political party? $15 an hour will be liveable in Rochester but hardly in Manhattan and yet the approach is statewide. Additionally these minimum wage increases are usually phased in over such a long period of time so as to make the impact near moot. Really you think $15 an hour in 2022 in California is going to be any different than $11 an hour today?
5
Why stop at $15? Why not go to $20? Or $25? Or $30? Each of those is more than $15, and more than what employers are currently forced to pay. If $15 is closer to a "living wage" then higher values must be even closer. And you know that $15 will only last until the next presidential election, when it will no longer be a "living wage".
An employer makes decisions on what to pay employees based on the income they generate doing their job. Progressives believe that that kind of thinking is arbitrary and invalid, because they want to believe that everyone is equal to everyone else - which is utterly untrue. Your productiveness sweeping floors is different from my productiveness writing marketing copy. In addition, you sweeping my office floor brings in less cash to the business than my writing the next billboard sign.
If you believe you are not earning enough at your job, find a new one, something that allows you to be more productive and therefore worth more to your employer. No one is going to pay you something you don't actually earn. Using the government to force employers to pay more is the philosophy of thieves.
An employer makes decisions on what to pay employees based on the income they generate doing their job. Progressives believe that that kind of thinking is arbitrary and invalid, because they want to believe that everyone is equal to everyone else - which is utterly untrue. Your productiveness sweeping floors is different from my productiveness writing marketing copy. In addition, you sweeping my office floor brings in less cash to the business than my writing the next billboard sign.
If you believe you are not earning enough at your job, find a new one, something that allows you to be more productive and therefore worth more to your employer. No one is going to pay you something you don't actually earn. Using the government to force employers to pay more is the philosophy of thieves.
5
Employers pay as little as possible -- and pay is NOT tied to the income generated. Wages have stagnated -- profits have exploded.
Progressives do not believe that "everyone is equal to everyone else."
Progressives believe that every worker deserves as living wage. Progressives believe that employers -- not the tax payers -- should pay enough so that workers can put food on the table, access health care, and have a roof over their heads.
Is that too much to ask in a civilized nation?
Progressives do not believe that "everyone is equal to everyone else."
Progressives believe that every worker deserves as living wage. Progressives believe that employers -- not the tax payers -- should pay enough so that workers can put food on the table, access health care, and have a roof over their heads.
Is that too much to ask in a civilized nation?
3
Things Change...
Nytimes in 1987 suggested the right minimum wage is $0.00.
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/14/opinion/the-right-minimum-wage-0.00.html
Nytimes in 1987 suggested the right minimum wage is $0.00.
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/14/opinion/the-right-minimum-wage-0.00.html
2
In most cases, the rise to $15 per hour will occur over several years and represents a catching up with years of decreasing wages relative to the cost of food, many durable goods and housing (yes, there has been significant inflation since the 1990s, even if computers and other tech has seemingly become cheaper and cheaper).
Businesses will have to accommodate this restoration of wage fairness lest the rich-poor gap grows much worse and the middle class continues disappearing.
Businesses will have to accommodate this restoration of wage fairness lest the rich-poor gap grows much worse and the middle class continues disappearing.
1
"The Fight for $15, a union-backed effort by low-wage workers, began in November 2012..."
* A more thorough/objective commentary on this issue wouldn't drop such a casual mention of "union-backed."
The reality is that many union contracts are pegged to the minimum wage - the minimum wage goes up, union pay goes up. Others are indirectly tied to the minimum wage. It's difficult to pay a "skilled" employee the same (or less) than a 17 year old fast food worker, the primary beneficiary of the minimum wage.
"Politically, the deal is a grass-roots victory...."
* Yes - it's grass roots for vote panderers to appeal to unions, liberal reporters and anyone who has never actually had to pay employees. For them it's all just monopoly money. For the small business owner it's just another tax.
And to not have any sort of analysis of what the impact of a minimum wage increase will have on tax revenues for governments is disingenuous reporting. The facts are a $9 an hour wage earner today makes and pays taxes on around $17,000 a year. A $15 an hour worker earns around $28,000 a year. That extra $11,000 provides governments with a lovely new source of taxable income.
* A more thorough/objective commentary on this issue wouldn't drop such a casual mention of "union-backed."
The reality is that many union contracts are pegged to the minimum wage - the minimum wage goes up, union pay goes up. Others are indirectly tied to the minimum wage. It's difficult to pay a "skilled" employee the same (or less) than a 17 year old fast food worker, the primary beneficiary of the minimum wage.
"Politically, the deal is a grass-roots victory...."
* Yes - it's grass roots for vote panderers to appeal to unions, liberal reporters and anyone who has never actually had to pay employees. For them it's all just monopoly money. For the small business owner it's just another tax.
And to not have any sort of analysis of what the impact of a minimum wage increase will have on tax revenues for governments is disingenuous reporting. The facts are a $9 an hour wage earner today makes and pays taxes on around $17,000 a year. A $15 an hour worker earns around $28,000 a year. That extra $11,000 provides governments with a lovely new source of taxable income.
3
In theory the $15/hour sounds great. The reality is that it is going to severely kill businesses, particularly small business that provides a lot of jobs. Economics 101, not rocket science. If a business finds the cost of labor to increase by a significant percentage, it has difficult choices to make. It can absorb the new cost by reducing profits, reducing capital for further development. Or it can reduce the number of employees to offset the higher cost of those who remain. Finally, the most likely scenario - it will raise the prices of the goods or services it provides to offset the higher cost. Now, when the $15/hr becomes the new standard, guess what? People earning that rate are going to be in the same economic boat they are now, because the cost of everything will have risen to offset the higher expense. Then there will be calls for $20/hr. All of this will have a negative impact on inflation as well.
7
If a business cannot afford to pay a worker a living wage, that business probably is not needed.
In a consumer economy, when people have money in their pockets, the economy improves. What we have now is an economy where businesses make unprecedented profits -- thanks to low wages -- and then stash their profits off shore so these same businesses don't pay taxes. The taxpayer subsidizes the business -- with food stamps, medicaid, and housing subsidies.
In a consumer economy, when people have money in their pockets, the economy improves. What we have now is an economy where businesses make unprecedented profits -- thanks to low wages -- and then stash their profits off shore so these same businesses don't pay taxes. The taxpayer subsidizes the business -- with food stamps, medicaid, and housing subsidies.
5
I find it interesting that this op-ed piece glosses over the impacts this will have. When these businesses have to increase the pay that dramatically for all of their employees, the money has to come from somewhere. They only have a few options for this, including either letting some employees go (which a lot of the leading voices for raising the minimum wage have acknowledged and somehow seem to be ok with), or raise the prices on the goods and services they provide, or both.
Now ask yourself this: who gets affected the most by increased prices at places that usually pay minimum wage? Usually the same type of people they employ. So the implementation of the higher minimum wage will end up hurting the same people they are intended to help. The minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, it was meant to be a stepping stone towards a higher paying job. I had to get a college degree and work for a few years before I was paid $15 an hour.
Look at Seattle as an example, since the higher minimum wage was instituted, a much higher than usual number of restaurants have closed their doors, leaving people not only not making $15 an hour, but unemployed. But of course the NYT completely glosses over possible impacts and effects, instead pulling on the heartstrings instead of focusing on the facts.
Now ask yourself this: who gets affected the most by increased prices at places that usually pay minimum wage? Usually the same type of people they employ. So the implementation of the higher minimum wage will end up hurting the same people they are intended to help. The minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, it was meant to be a stepping stone towards a higher paying job. I had to get a college degree and work for a few years before I was paid $15 an hour.
Look at Seattle as an example, since the higher minimum wage was instituted, a much higher than usual number of restaurants have closed their doors, leaving people not only not making $15 an hour, but unemployed. But of course the NYT completely glosses over possible impacts and effects, instead pulling on the heartstrings instead of focusing on the facts.
9
The problem is that, since NAFTA (the offshoring of living wage jobs to low wage nations), and since the killing of unions (living wage jobs), the majority of all jobs in the USA (ALL JOBS) are now part time, temporary, low wage jobs.
People need money in their pockets, Nobody should have to work and STILL not be able to put food on the table -- without TAX PAYER assistance. You may not mind subsidizing the rich (employers), but I do.
People need money in their pockets, Nobody should have to work and STILL not be able to put food on the table -- without TAX PAYER assistance. You may not mind subsidizing the rich (employers), but I do.
2
I am not sure about the $15 minimum state wide. Oh, I am sure that there are families that need it, and I am sure there are many who deserve it, but I am not sure that all the regions in the state can sustain it.
Upstate, and by that I mean places like Elmira and Oswego, Berlin, Hoosick Falls, are a lot different even from the downstate region in which I live, and nothing at all like the real urban and suburban areas of the state. Cost of living is substantially lower. Vast swaths of upstate seem empty as you drive through.
The governor needs to be able to demonstrate how business owners who are struggling, not bleeding employees dry, can sustain their businesses, sustain customers, if the region in general doesn't have an economic engine to sustain growth. The theory is that all those boats are lifted, so everyone benefits. But that is hard to demonstrate, and crushing the small farm start ups, dairy farmers, and any remaining small retailers won't help at all.
And for all who answer that anyone who can't afford a living wage shouldn't be in business- that is precisely the point.
Upstate, and by that I mean places like Elmira and Oswego, Berlin, Hoosick Falls, are a lot different even from the downstate region in which I live, and nothing at all like the real urban and suburban areas of the state. Cost of living is substantially lower. Vast swaths of upstate seem empty as you drive through.
The governor needs to be able to demonstrate how business owners who are struggling, not bleeding employees dry, can sustain their businesses, sustain customers, if the region in general doesn't have an economic engine to sustain growth. The theory is that all those boats are lifted, so everyone benefits. But that is hard to demonstrate, and crushing the small farm start ups, dairy farmers, and any remaining small retailers won't help at all.
And for all who answer that anyone who can't afford a living wage shouldn't be in business- that is precisely the point.
8
I am a small business owner. I own a bicycle shop. My mechanics whom provide skilled labor start at $15 per hour. The retail associates who do not work on bikes start at $10. If I have to pay them $15 then I have to give my mechanics a raise. I cannot afford to give raises across the board. As a result I will have to let employees go, maintain shorter hours or at the very least raise prices for the consumer. It will impact future hiring for me as now I will have higher standards of employment to justify the wages I am now forced to pay. It won't help the income non skilled labor because now they won't be hired in the first place. This will hurt jobs and increase unemployment. To hold all business to an equal wage standard is unfair to small business many of whom managing payroll is one of the biggest challenges of their job.
9
After the inviolable laws of math and of supply and demand that you reduce employment, the insane fanatics on the left will mandate that you hire a minimum number of employees
2
From my perspective, this is another fight that shows that the middle class are being ignored again. While I think that in theory it is great to fight to increase minimum wage. But, all too often not enough people are thinking through the consequences for the rest of the population. There are way too many careers that require a college education, but only pay slightly more than $15 an hour. These are careers such as teaching (starting pay) and social workers.
For me this is somewhat personal. I was someone with a master's degree, working in a helping profession, but still only making a little over $30,000. I struggled to get 40 hours a week because if a kid I worked with was sick, I did not get paid. On top of it I had $300 per month student loans. While I am aware that I put my self in that situation and have since changed professions, I still feel like the time I put into that career does not deserve to be discounted by advocacy groups insisting that someone that did not put in 6 years of education deserves the same pay.
For me this is somewhat personal. I was someone with a master's degree, working in a helping profession, but still only making a little over $30,000. I struggled to get 40 hours a week because if a kid I worked with was sick, I did not get paid. On top of it I had $300 per month student loans. While I am aware that I put my self in that situation and have since changed professions, I still feel like the time I put into that career does not deserve to be discounted by advocacy groups insisting that someone that did not put in 6 years of education deserves the same pay.
4
Every worker deserves a living wage. Not just teachers.
1
Making the price of something what you wish it was does not make people buy it.
There are generally two types of people who make minimum wage, teenagers who need the experience of a job and adults who lack marketable skills. Youth unemployment it 12 percent, 20 percent for black youth.
Raising the minimum wage will cause employers to do two things.
1.Reduce staffing levels. Quite obviously the more expensive something is the less of it you can afford. Also employers will seek to replace workers with automation, ie kiosks. All in all this hurts youth employment. It blocks youth from the key experience they need.
2. Yes those who are not let go will earn more but the societal benefit here is small as most teens work part time and are not significant contributors to household income
For unskilled adults, some will get the raise while others are let go as downsizing and automation occur. Those not let go will earn money that will surely improve their standard of living. Those let go will now be permanently on unemployment and food stamps.
The reality is sadly for most unskilled adults there is little help we can give them to get them better paying jobs. They are generally paid their worth. There are many many fast food and retailers so the job market is quite competitive. If we think the standard of living is too low for these workers, the government should send them a check. Let's not ruin teen employment in the process.
There are generally two types of people who make minimum wage, teenagers who need the experience of a job and adults who lack marketable skills. Youth unemployment it 12 percent, 20 percent for black youth.
Raising the minimum wage will cause employers to do two things.
1.Reduce staffing levels. Quite obviously the more expensive something is the less of it you can afford. Also employers will seek to replace workers with automation, ie kiosks. All in all this hurts youth employment. It blocks youth from the key experience they need.
2. Yes those who are not let go will earn more but the societal benefit here is small as most teens work part time and are not significant contributors to household income
For unskilled adults, some will get the raise while others are let go as downsizing and automation occur. Those not let go will earn money that will surely improve their standard of living. Those let go will now be permanently on unemployment and food stamps.
The reality is sadly for most unskilled adults there is little help we can give them to get them better paying jobs. They are generally paid their worth. There are many many fast food and retailers so the job market is quite competitive. If we think the standard of living is too low for these workers, the government should send them a check. Let's not ruin teen employment in the process.
6
There could be exceptions for teenage workers -- as is the case in Australia.
But now that the majority of all jobs in the USA are part time temporary low wage jobs, we need to make sure that all jobs pay a living wage. Why should the tax payer subsidize the business owner? And who is to say what a person's life is "worth"?
But now that the majority of all jobs in the USA are part time temporary low wage jobs, we need to make sure that all jobs pay a living wage. Why should the tax payer subsidize the business owner? And who is to say what a person's life is "worth"?
1
I am not against an increase in the minimum wage, but would someone please explain to me how it is that inflation necessitates this increase, which most agree is long overdue, but somehow seniors, who live in the same country as low wage workers, do not merit a similar increase in their EARNED, way below the federa; poverty line Social Security benefits? There has been 0 COLA increase for an unprecedented 6 years during the Obama Administration. The Obama Administration and their mouthpieces keep saying that there has been no inflation, so a COLA is not justified. At the same time, they say inflation justifies an increase in the minimum wage. There seems to be a contradiction or duplicity somewhere.
2
Beautiful! Let's chip away at that 47%.
$15 per hour, if you put in a 40 week, now you're a taxpayer!
And as a bonus, no more income transfers, goodbye earned income credit.
$15 per hour, if you put in a 40 week, now you're a taxpayer!
And as a bonus, no more income transfers, goodbye earned income credit.
3
You sound resentful of low wage earners.
1
Good. Now, on to a maximum wage. No human needs more than a $100/ hour.
1
Withholding a living wage is a way of telling who has that job they are worthless and it goes hand in hand with that a worthless person need not be treated as worth something. This is what employers are saying to their workers, "you are trash who does not even deserve a roof over your head, food to sustain your efforts, the option to save and plan for your future".
To me the indignant surprise at Trump followers merely acting according to how they've been told they are for decades is ironically accurate. They've been treated like trash so long, decades! so what's the big surprise in behaving how they've been told?
But it goes deeper. Such a low minimum wage has pressed down jobs at the bottom end of the scale to the point that $15/hr has become the new wage for all second tier jobs. This is equally about those workers having labored equally as long at what is in actuality minimum wage for all this time and have equally suffered the same message that they are worthless trash and treated like trash.
This is as much or even more about employers being told they cannot treat people like trash as it is about money. And like any bully or person wilding unearned power, they're choking on it.
I have no sympathy for business models predicated on exploitation, or any of the other excuses thrown up when people are fired for being 5 minutes late when their lives are impossible due to poverty.
To me the indignant surprise at Trump followers merely acting according to how they've been told they are for decades is ironically accurate. They've been treated like trash so long, decades! so what's the big surprise in behaving how they've been told?
But it goes deeper. Such a low minimum wage has pressed down jobs at the bottom end of the scale to the point that $15/hr has become the new wage for all second tier jobs. This is equally about those workers having labored equally as long at what is in actuality minimum wage for all this time and have equally suffered the same message that they are worthless trash and treated like trash.
This is as much or even more about employers being told they cannot treat people like trash as it is about money. And like any bully or person wilding unearned power, they're choking on it.
I have no sympathy for business models predicated on exploitation, or any of the other excuses thrown up when people are fired for being 5 minutes late when their lives are impossible due to poverty.
1
It would benefit the economy, reduce crime (mostly traced to income inequality) for New York to attach a living wage to the cost-of-living and tax trading to pay for it. Companies could claim the tax as a future tax break if the poverty and crime rate drop.
1
Let's be clear on the policy implications of raising the minimum wage: those who keep their jobs will be big winners. Losers will include: those who lose their jobs and taxpayers who will have to provide more income support; consumers who purchase goods or services from firms whose business models rely on substantial numbers of minimum wage workers; and the owners of those businesses, whether small business people or shareholders. If there weren't these sorts of distributional effects, why not raise the minimum wage to $150 per hour and we could all live like kings?
9
Employers do not fire workers they need to do the job.
The taxpayer is the one who subsidizes low wages - -food stamps, medicaid.So the taxpayer is not going to lose.
Businesses will benefit, especially small businesses, because consumers will have more $ in their pockets.
People do not want to "live like kings." People want to be able to put food on the table when they work 40 hours a week. What is your objection?
The taxpayer is the one who subsidizes low wages - -food stamps, medicaid.So the taxpayer is not going to lose.
Businesses will benefit, especially small businesses, because consumers will have more $ in their pockets.
People do not want to "live like kings." People want to be able to put food on the table when they work 40 hours a week. What is your objection?
Keep in mind that a higher minimum creates upward pressure for all. American wages/salary's have been stagnate for decades. We all need a raise.
1
A higher minimum wage also creates increased pressure to replace no-skill, low-skill workers with increasingly less expensive automation which will result in the becoming no-wage workers.
4
There was a time, back in the late 70's and early 80s, when I was in college, I made slightly above minimum wage as did my brother and father. Yet, we could afford to stay in a decent rent controlled apartment on the upper east side of Manhattan. We used to joke that we are the poorest in the then richest zip code in the nation. As our financial fortune improved, we moved to the outer boroughs and eventually bought houses of our own.
Unfortunately, income inequality and exorbitant rents have made it impossible for someone earning minimum wage to rent in Manhattan, but the "Marching Toward a $15 Minimum Wage" is long overdue. At least it'd help people to have income above poverty levels.
Unfortunately, income inequality and exorbitant rents have made it impossible for someone earning minimum wage to rent in Manhattan, but the "Marching Toward a $15 Minimum Wage" is long overdue. At least it'd help people to have income above poverty levels.
2
This is why we have 50 states. Each can serve as an independent laboratory, and nowhere is that more true than in the labor markets.
In our nation, with a common language and seamless transportation across state borders, the barriers to labor moving toward and away from mis-priced labor markets is effectively risk-free.
However, I would expect to see more stores and fast food restaurants either cutting back on their staffs or closing completely. In a typical McDonald's, 30-50% of the staff will need to go to pay for a hike of that size. The other option may be to ditch "Dollar Menu" items, raising the cost of meals for those families who eat a daily meal at these nutritional scourges (maybe that's the real goal...).
Or maybe the business man genius, Andrew Cuomo, figures this will be shaken from the pockets of the wealthy.
At a time when technology and automation is gutting the workforce, this whole obsession is truly bizarre. Truly.
Perhaps one should consider the typical profile run on NPR covers the minimum: a single mother trying to raise two children without child support while she earns $10.00.
Perhaps that has something to do with the problem in a way that was not present 40 years ago.
In modern America, the solution to every problem seems to be always about "them" and never about "us".
In our nation, with a common language and seamless transportation across state borders, the barriers to labor moving toward and away from mis-priced labor markets is effectively risk-free.
However, I would expect to see more stores and fast food restaurants either cutting back on their staffs or closing completely. In a typical McDonald's, 30-50% of the staff will need to go to pay for a hike of that size. The other option may be to ditch "Dollar Menu" items, raising the cost of meals for those families who eat a daily meal at these nutritional scourges (maybe that's the real goal...).
Or maybe the business man genius, Andrew Cuomo, figures this will be shaken from the pockets of the wealthy.
At a time when technology and automation is gutting the workforce, this whole obsession is truly bizarre. Truly.
Perhaps one should consider the typical profile run on NPR covers the minimum: a single mother trying to raise two children without child support while she earns $10.00.
Perhaps that has something to do with the problem in a way that was not present 40 years ago.
In modern America, the solution to every problem seems to be always about "them" and never about "us".
4
A dumb fix to a complicated problem- and the crowd goes wild!
Let's not equate living wage with minimum wage- if we do, the whole concept is doomed.
The government, to be useful, could hash-out an algorithm for "cost-of-living" that, when applied to each locale, would determine what would constitute a "living wage" for that region.
Then a reasonable step would be to encourage business owners to maintain some percentage of their employees at a "living wage" by incentivizing businesses that hit a larger percentage with tax benefits and penalizing businesses that do not provide these opportunities.
Of course if the work force is largely un-and under-trained the jobs that would be worth a living wage cannot reasonably exist. This is where the government can mandate something- training and education!
Let's not equate living wage with minimum wage- if we do, the whole concept is doomed.
The government, to be useful, could hash-out an algorithm for "cost-of-living" that, when applied to each locale, would determine what would constitute a "living wage" for that region.
Then a reasonable step would be to encourage business owners to maintain some percentage of their employees at a "living wage" by incentivizing businesses that hit a larger percentage with tax benefits and penalizing businesses that do not provide these opportunities.
Of course if the work force is largely un-and under-trained the jobs that would be worth a living wage cannot reasonably exist. This is where the government can mandate something- training and education!
5
As a person running a small business in a small upstate town, I see the distance between NYC and every other market in the state being measured by dollars instead of miles. I listen to the governor talk to crowds as if big business is the evil enemy because it opposes this minimum wage increase. I employ five people besides myself with the sole goal of keeping the business IN BUSINESS and create income to give raises to my employees; and at this point, I do not see a pathway forward. Our business cannot simply raise prices or find savings enough IN THIS TOWN to pay for such significantly higher wages. Decent houses in this city sell every day for $50,000-$70,000 which makes me read the Times as an ex-pat of a vibrant, wealthy city. We operate in a totally different economy entirely despite this state minimum wage mandate. Good luck to us!
20
"You can't make someone's productive effort worth $15 by refusing to let an employer pay them less." - Henry Hazlitt
What's your effort worth? Why is it worth that much? How do you determine what your income should be?
But hey, let's use the Karl Marx/Elizabeth Warren/Bernie Sanders equation:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
What's your effort worth? Why is it worth that much? How do you determine what your income should be?
But hey, let's use the Karl Marx/Elizabeth Warren/Bernie Sanders equation:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
6
It would be great if there were a way to tie minimum to cost of living in the area. That way, people in gentrifying neighborhoods would have a better chance of staying in their home or living near their job, while small businesses in low cost-of-living areas would not be as easily priced out of hiring someone. I'm not sure how the details would work, but the same hourly wage has very different impact in different parts of the country.
6
Such an increase would wipe upstate NY off the map. Hardly anyone would be able to get a job, and all the people would just leave. It's already happening.
12
The thing to keep in mind about a $15 dollar wage is that it would impel an escalation of wages across the board - not just at the lower end - and thus restore some of the ground that has been lost to working men and women since the Reagan devolution.
However, if nothing is done to bring businesses on board with this plan, through some kind of adjustment in corporate taxes, it is also likely to spur more miserly business owners to either relocate out of NYS or eliminate additional jobs through automation or outsourcing. Hence, it is important that any final deal appear to give both sides something of value.
The more workers are paid in an advanced industrialized economy, the less it is that they will need the assistance of government in order to make ends meet; the less they are paid, the more they must become dependent on government to get by.
The more workers are paid, the more they will be capable of contributing to sustainable economic growth; the less they are paid, the more likely it is that we will be perpetually vulnerable to painful, prolonged recessions.
We've spent 35 years testing the premises of voodoo economics, and have discovered beyond a shadow of a doubt that it does not lift all boats - and only makes government that much more necessary. If conservatives truly care about shrinking the need for government, then they must support both a robust minimum wage and the retention in America of every last job possible.
However, if nothing is done to bring businesses on board with this plan, through some kind of adjustment in corporate taxes, it is also likely to spur more miserly business owners to either relocate out of NYS or eliminate additional jobs through automation or outsourcing. Hence, it is important that any final deal appear to give both sides something of value.
The more workers are paid in an advanced industrialized economy, the less it is that they will need the assistance of government in order to make ends meet; the less they are paid, the more they must become dependent on government to get by.
The more workers are paid, the more they will be capable of contributing to sustainable economic growth; the less they are paid, the more likely it is that we will be perpetually vulnerable to painful, prolonged recessions.
We've spent 35 years testing the premises of voodoo economics, and have discovered beyond a shadow of a doubt that it does not lift all boats - and only makes government that much more necessary. If conservatives truly care about shrinking the need for government, then they must support both a robust minimum wage and the retention in America of every last job possible.
3
"The more workers are paid, the more they will be capable of contributing to sustainable economic growth;.." Nonsense.
The money to pay them has to come from somewhere which is a dollar for dollar offset.
The money to pay them has to come from somewhere which is a dollar for dollar offset.
Reality called to remind you that Reaganomics created the greatest economic expansion in history. Obama wishes he had even 0.00001% of Reagan's brilliance and success.
A minimum wage works better for employers and societal interests as it is more broadly applied. Minimum wage in a whole state works better than in one city, and in more large states better than in one small state. A national rule is best of all, but this is how we work up to that.
California is doing this. If New York does it too, that makes it better for both.
The employees who get paid a higher minimum wage get a direct benefit.
Other employees already earning more get an indirect benefit, as their wages rise to maintain the intended rewards for experience and skills and performance and responsibility.
Employers benefit when everyone else does it too, avoiding any risks of competitive disadvantage to lower-paying employers in more distant markets. They also benefit when more employees in their market have the money to provide demand for what they sell.
Society benefits from the increased economic activity, and the increased prosperity of people who had burdened it with the needs of those existing on the economic margin. Society benefits from reduced safety net, but even more because society is ALL of us including the people among us now doing better.
California doing this, now New York, benefits all of us as it becomes more general. New York's 20 million people add a useful margin to California's 39 million. Just those two they are almost 20% of the US, and some of the most prosperous 20%. This is great for them, and hope for everyone else.
California is doing this. If New York does it too, that makes it better for both.
The employees who get paid a higher minimum wage get a direct benefit.
Other employees already earning more get an indirect benefit, as their wages rise to maintain the intended rewards for experience and skills and performance and responsibility.
Employers benefit when everyone else does it too, avoiding any risks of competitive disadvantage to lower-paying employers in more distant markets. They also benefit when more employees in their market have the money to provide demand for what they sell.
Society benefits from the increased economic activity, and the increased prosperity of people who had burdened it with the needs of those existing on the economic margin. Society benefits from reduced safety net, but even more because society is ALL of us including the people among us now doing better.
California doing this, now New York, benefits all of us as it becomes more general. New York's 20 million people add a useful margin to California's 39 million. Just those two they are almost 20% of the US, and some of the most prosperous 20%. This is great for them, and hope for everyone else.
9
Not really. $15 an hour is a modest raise in New York City, Los Angeles or San Francisco. Small businesses can absorb the costs and pass them on to their customers without much trouble.
But in Fresno or Tupper Lake, it's a different story. I am not pro or con on this - but the determining factor in how this affects both payers and workers is the cost of living.
But in Fresno or Tupper Lake, it's a different story. I am not pro or con on this - but the determining factor in how this affects both payers and workers is the cost of living.
In theory, everything you say is true. But in reality, it is more complicated than that.
What happens when the warehouse worker is replace by a robot because the robot is now cheaper?
What happens when the fast food order taker is now replaced by a tablet?
If a minimum wage is good, then why not make the minimum wage somewhere around $50/hour? Perhaps that will lead to faster automation? Or teen age workers being replace by older college educated worker? Well, if that will happen at $50/hour, how do we know it won't happen at $20/hour or $15/hour or $10/hour?
Who benefits then?
What happens when the warehouse worker is replace by a robot because the robot is now cheaper?
What happens when the fast food order taker is now replaced by a tablet?
If a minimum wage is good, then why not make the minimum wage somewhere around $50/hour? Perhaps that will lead to faster automation? Or teen age workers being replace by older college educated worker? Well, if that will happen at $50/hour, how do we know it won't happen at $20/hour or $15/hour or $10/hour?
Who benefits then?
3
Why not $30 if we do so well?
I notice a number of comments saying that some jobs aren't worth a $15 minimum wage. So far no comments that CEOs, hedge fund managers, and vulture capitalists like Mitt Romney aren't worth multi-million dollar wages Executives who run their companies into the ground are certainly not worth multi-million dollar golden parachutes.
And what about multi-billionaire companies like Walmart that pay so little their employees have to get food stamps? If you're working full time, you should earn enough to pay rent and buy food without needing a taxpayer subsidy. Back in 1970, the minimum was was enough to house and feed a family of three. And then came St. Ronnie....
And what about multi-billionaire companies like Walmart that pay so little their employees have to get food stamps? If you're working full time, you should earn enough to pay rent and buy food without needing a taxpayer subsidy. Back in 1970, the minimum was was enough to house and feed a family of three. And then came St. Ronnie....
30
When the work you do produces enough wealth for your employer that they can afford to pay you multiple millions of dollars, then perhaps someone will pay you multiple millions of dollars.
Back in 1970, Nixon was in office - are you saying he was better with the economy than Reagan? And then came the Peanut King, who drove interest rates into the stratosphere. Did that change how easily it was to house and feed a family of three? Or is your memory only good at cherry-picking?
Try reading history from someone other than Philip Zinn.
Back in 1970, Nixon was in office - are you saying he was better with the economy than Reagan? And then came the Peanut King, who drove interest rates into the stratosphere. Did that change how easily it was to house and feed a family of three? Or is your memory only good at cherry-picking?
Try reading history from someone other than Philip Zinn.
3
Nah, you're just angry. You seem to be fine with actors, athletes, or TV personalities making that kind of money.
3
@Martha
Whatever "Saint Ronnie" has to do with this, I hope you will share in a future rant.
News flash: WalMart is gutting thousands of jobs and closing nearly 300 stores to compensate for its minimum wage increase and a stagnant economy.
What did Saint Ronnie have to do with that? He has been gone for, what, 30 years?
Liberals have a hard time letting go of things. I am sure George W. Bush is responsible for the training of ISIS fighters right now.
Whatever "Saint Ronnie" has to do with this, I hope you will share in a future rant.
News flash: WalMart is gutting thousands of jobs and closing nearly 300 stores to compensate for its minimum wage increase and a stagnant economy.
What did Saint Ronnie have to do with that? He has been gone for, what, 30 years?
Liberals have a hard time letting go of things. I am sure George W. Bush is responsible for the training of ISIS fighters right now.
4
This is one of those areas in which Trump and Bernie's policies cross paths. The candidates could not be more different at their cores—Trump being a bumptious jingoist and Sanders a universalist utopian—but often they have similar ideas.
We often hear about all the jobs that Americans won't do. It's a ritual incarnation of both Democratic and Republican party orthodoxy. In a sense, both Sanders and Trump are pushing back against this. Raising the minimum wage would make service industry jobs much more appealing, and cut down on the want for immigrant labor.
A low minimum wage and high immigration work in tandem: Americans don't want to do backbreaking labor for pennies on the dollar, and employers would rather bring in foreign workers who will simply be grateful for anything they're given.
Just look at who opposes raising the minimum wage: corporations, Hillary, and the GOP establishment. The trifecta of the enemies of the 99%. It's a no-brainer, folks.
We often hear about all the jobs that Americans won't do. It's a ritual incarnation of both Democratic and Republican party orthodoxy. In a sense, both Sanders and Trump are pushing back against this. Raising the minimum wage would make service industry jobs much more appealing, and cut down on the want for immigrant labor.
A low minimum wage and high immigration work in tandem: Americans don't want to do backbreaking labor for pennies on the dollar, and employers would rather bring in foreign workers who will simply be grateful for anything they're given.
Just look at who opposes raising the minimum wage: corporations, Hillary, and the GOP establishment. The trifecta of the enemies of the 99%. It's a no-brainer, folks.
17
SuperNova, why should I believe anything you say when you LIE about stuff like "Hillary opposes raising the minimum wage."
Clinton absolutely does NOT "oppose raising the minimum wage." She proposes raising it from $7.25 to $12/hr, instead of Bernie's $15. $15 could wipe out a lot of "mom & pop" businesses outside of urban areas.
If you think Clinton is "the enemy," you don't know anything about her. And if you think no one will notice you post obvious lies, you don't know anything about NYT readers. You are so * not * helping Bernie by posting dreck like this.
Clinton absolutely does NOT "oppose raising the minimum wage." She proposes raising it from $7.25 to $12/hr, instead of Bernie's $15. $15 could wipe out a lot of "mom & pop" businesses outside of urban areas.
If you think Clinton is "the enemy," you don't know anything about her. And if you think no one will notice you post obvious lies, you don't know anything about NYT readers. You are so * not * helping Bernie by posting dreck like this.
1
The question now being, how much is $15 worth in 2022? How come when it comes to increase the living wage for the working poor it will be incrementally implement over several years whereas a massive trillion dollar tax cut for the Koch brothers would be applied immediately? Unambitious Democrats like Mr Cuomo is at least trying to enact something, which is better than no increase at all. Yet it is shows how incredibly difficult it is for the middle class to catch a break in modern America.
5
The $15 minimum wage is ridiculous. So in 2021, a burger flipper in Rochester is going to make $15 an hour (the same as in Manhattan)?!? That makes no sense. $15/hr is way overpaying someone for a menial task, especially in Rochester. The businesses can't afford it. You might as well shut down all Rochester burger joints and fire their workers.
More importantly, a min. wage job isn't supposed to be a career - it's supposed to be a summer gig that teaches you the value of money and education. Let's keep it $9/hr so people have more motivation to improve their skills and do better for themselves, and the country.
More importantly, a min. wage job isn't supposed to be a career - it's supposed to be a summer gig that teaches you the value of money and education. Let's keep it $9/hr so people have more motivation to improve their skills and do better for themselves, and the country.
23
$15/hr is hard to live on where one lives and harder in NYC, not the other way around.
1
How do you run a fast food franchise or a hotel with summer employees? The businesses need full time workers. Full time workers should be paid a living wage.
Have you ever worked at McDonald's? Who are you to say what a person's time and life are worth -- or what skills are needed? Since "free" trade agreements (NAFTA), the majority of all jobs in the USA are part time temporary low wage jobs. Those living wage factory jobs that used to support families are not coming back.
This is really a conversation about who you believe the economy should serve? $15 hr is chicken feed when you consider the real life costs for most people. If you adhere to the shareholder economy….as most news outlets do (the S&P is up 0.3%) keep going, don't look back and certainly don't complain when consumers balk (or the latest housing ponzi scheme collapses). If you are interested in something more widely accessible and sustainable, advocate for minimum wage increase. Most people, those who support nefarious politicians included, have needed the bump for a long time.
11
Perhaps if the Fed stopped printing money to pay for the corrupt politicians and their pet pork programs, then maybe people's savings could actually be worth something, and they'd be encouraged to save more - which would lead to lower prices for things like food, clothing, and homes. Kind of like it did in the late 19th century, before the Fed was created by politicians and bankers. But it's okay that you want to ignore history.
1
I completely support reaching the $15 minimum wage. However, to get there our less than progressive governor is about to stick NYC with $250 Million in Medicaid costs (where's the ObamaCare $$?), cut funding to CUNY, and cut taxes for people with incomes under $300,000. How about reversing the cuts, change that income figure to $100,000, and provide small business tax relief to those bearing the brunt of the minimum wage increase by providing an incentive to those maintaining their workforce?
The gov's policies would hurt the young and the indigent, who are disproportionately minority in this city. Yet last election Cuomo sailed to victory with the votes of these demographics, partly because Teachout, labeled a white liberal, failed to gain traction. A similar analogy is occurring in Clinton and Sanders races.
Americans need to realize that voting according to the common interests of economic class will produce progressive government, not race or gender politics. And when it comes to Clinton and Cuomo, the only thing that matters to them is their own self-aggrandizement.
The gov's policies would hurt the young and the indigent, who are disproportionately minority in this city. Yet last election Cuomo sailed to victory with the votes of these demographics, partly because Teachout, labeled a white liberal, failed to gain traction. A similar analogy is occurring in Clinton and Sanders races.
Americans need to realize that voting according to the common interests of economic class will produce progressive government, not race or gender politics. And when it comes to Clinton and Cuomo, the only thing that matters to them is their own self-aggrandizement.
3
Yep--California and New York can compete with each other. How about a $25/hr minimum wage? Maybe $50? Or $125? Only problems are: (a) Andrew and Jerry cannot compels companies to STAY in New York or California; (b) a New York address is just not an indispensable cachet anymore (sorry, guys); and (c) wages need to bear some relation to other factors. So, yes, Andrew, point your finger: that "big sucking sound" is the jobs leaving in that direction, so that your "economic justice" will ensure New Yorkers a wonderful wage .... if they can get work.
5
The "slippery slope" argument as used here is a logical fallacy.
To show that, apply it to the other side: How about every CEO get paid half a billion dollars, or a billion? We can't play this game with any smaller numbers, because CEO's already give themselves that.
To show that, apply it to the other side: How about every CEO get paid half a billion dollars, or a billion? We can't play this game with any smaller numbers, because CEO's already give themselves that.
3
Sorry, the Board of Directors sets the pay for CEOs.
As a small business employer, I have never a problem to reward my employees for their hard work and dedication, at the same time, I also have to watch my balance sheet. Increase minimum wage means more than just minimum wage, I.e. We have to increase all wages across board for all my employees! Nothing comes from nothing , if a business has to increase it's overhead ( commuter tax before, now medical insurance, and higher minimal wages in near future) expenditure , that will force any business to either increase the price of goods / services, and / or minimize employments, unless government is willing to decrease tax rate, or to provide some incentive program, otherwise the rising of the minimum wage, can only hurt small businesses and most disadvantage population, instead of achieving the ultimate goal we all are seeking---- balanced economical society
22
A business model predicated on impoverishment, on exploitation of workers for your gain is not a sound business model. The adjustments the new minimum wage will force you into having to do is what you should have done long before rather than forcing people into poverty.
2
It seems completely nonsensical to me that upstate NY and NYC should have the same minimum wage. Upstate NY has some of the lowest costs of living in the country, especially housing costs. Meanwhile, the cost of living in the city is truly insane. It seems to me that NYC should have a minimum wage of $25 or $35 or even more, while upstate NY is probably better off with a much lower minimum. Upstate might be better off seeing how CA's $15 minimum wage experiment plays out, and if it doesn't result in job loss and other negative effects in low-cost, rural areas, then upstate NY could adopt it as well.
7
People should be able to work a 40-hour-week and earn at least a living wage. A living wage needs a definition based upon COLA, economic geographical region, and a multiple above the poverty-level such that a family does not experience constant financial stress. Now figure the minimum wage based upon those factors and whatever other ones that may be needed to fulfill the requirements of this algorithm.
[Just as an aside, (really a rant worth discussing?) what is the social value of identifying politicians by dynasty? Cuomo, Clinton, Bush, wife of, child of, Bhutto, Ghandi, North Korea, ... It promotes the instituting of oligarchy. We, as an educated electorate, could discern merit better than that! We so love the romance of monarchy. To me, it's political comfort food.]
[Just as an aside, (really a rant worth discussing?) what is the social value of identifying politicians by dynasty? Cuomo, Clinton, Bush, wife of, child of, Bhutto, Ghandi, North Korea, ... It promotes the instituting of oligarchy. We, as an educated electorate, could discern merit better than that! We so love the romance of monarchy. To me, it's political comfort food.]
"People should be able to work a 40-hour-week and earn at least a living wage."
Uh, no, they shouldn't. The idea looks good in a headline, but oh the unintended consequences we'll have to deal with.
Kids need to be brought into the jobs market and taught the basic skills of showing up on time and being disciplined with doing your tasks and understanding that you don't just get money handed to you for showing up. As a small business owner the bargain is 'I'll train you, but you won't make a lot of money' Wait, let me guess, we need to create a New Government Program to train kids in skills needed to hold a job....
Uh, no, they shouldn't. The idea looks good in a headline, but oh the unintended consequences we'll have to deal with.
Kids need to be brought into the jobs market and taught the basic skills of showing up on time and being disciplined with doing your tasks and understanding that you don't just get money handed to you for showing up. As a small business owner the bargain is 'I'll train you, but you won't make a lot of money' Wait, let me guess, we need to create a New Government Program to train kids in skills needed to hold a job....
2
"let me guess, we need to create a New Government Program to train kids in skills needed to hold a job.."
The government worshiping liberal/progressives can never have too much government or the useless, parasitic, bureaucrats that infest every level of it. In their ideal world, everyone would work for their great god government, just like in the old Soviet Union and we all know how well that worked out.
The government worshiping liberal/progressives can never have too much government or the useless, parasitic, bureaucrats that infest every level of it. In their ideal world, everyone would work for their great god government, just like in the old Soviet Union and we all know how well that worked out.
1
Is this the end of the battle between Jefferson and Hamilton? And I could have asked the same question of every recent NYT editorial. What is the real fundamental question here?
Back in 1980 I said that anyone who was not making at least ten dollars an hour was wasting his/her time. Adjust for inflation if you will, but it is the same idea: would anyone making more than fifteen dollars an hour in our country care to live on less?
I do not think so. This is an idea whose time is WAY overdue. Do it now.
Chevy
South Hadley, MA
I do not think so. This is an idea whose time is WAY overdue. Do it now.
Chevy
South Hadley, MA
3
I've seen people "working" who aren't even worth $5 per hour.
5
For Bernie Sanders it is moral conviction, which comes across as intuitively honest to anyone listening to him.
For Hillary Clinton it is calculated adaptation, perpetuating the perception of politicians as dishonest opportunists.
For Hillary Clinton it is calculated adaptation, perpetuating the perception of politicians as dishonest opportunists.
8
And when did you become a mind reader, Alvaro? Why don't you look at Clinton's Senate record which is almost exactly like Bernie's?
You are actually echoing a GOP talking point that has been heavily funded by Republican donors for years, in an effort to discredit Clinton as the formidable Democratic candidate she is. If you support Bernie, helping Republicans is not a winning strategy. And they will eventually make up stuff about him too, if he's nominated. Then you'll understand better why I don't believe anything they say about Clinton.
You are actually echoing a GOP talking point that has been heavily funded by Republican donors for years, in an effort to discredit Clinton as the formidable Democratic candidate she is. If you support Bernie, helping Republicans is not a winning strategy. And they will eventually make up stuff about him too, if he's nominated. Then you'll understand better why I don't believe anything they say about Clinton.
The economic ignorance displayed by the writers of this editorial is simply disgraceful. If you would enjoy a rigid and inflexible economy like France or Spain, with high unemployment and a burgeoning underclass, then this proposal is for you.
14
Economic illiteracy is a hallmark of the left
1
I live in Spain 4 months out of the year. The unemployment is a problem (just as it is in the USA), but the unemployed in Europe do not have to worry about health care -- or high-interest student loan debt. And, actually, there are more middle class jobs in Europe than there are in the USA. Small businesses do better in Europe than in the USA, for many reasons.
2
$23,500 a year working 40 hour weeks? Isn't this below the minimum income, poverty level? That's what 8 hours a day at $15 per hour less the approximate 20% deleted for taxes, etc. amounts to. Net $94 a day. I just went to Trader Joe's and bought $92.32 worth of groceries, no alcohol, for two people. Nothing special, just basic stuff. How can one person live on $23,500 a year, much less two people or a family? Perhaps businesses relying on slave wages to make a profit need to reassess their model? Something is horribly wrong here. In California approximately 12% of the workforce is here illegally, how will businesses contend with them in this new paradigm? Much remains to be seen.
14
You're in San Francisco, which has a really high cost of living compared with much of the country.
1
I agree with your questions / statements but think using Trader Joe's was a poor example to use. You can stretch your dollar considerably further by shopping at Von's or Ralph's - $92 would buy you enough rice and beans for a few months to live on. Yeah rice and beans would get boring but hey that's what much of the rest of the world lives on.
1
You're in San Francisco so you're in a bubble. Much of the rest of the country can live comfortably on $15 an hour. That's how much I was making when I bought my first house.
1
Too much, to soon. This will lead to lower hiring particularly for first time workers. They need time to gain basic common sense skills like even getting to work on time.
13
I just don't get it...a living wage in NY is $15/hour? Who are we fooling.
Make it $35/hour to $50/hour.
Who is the person who came up with $15?
Make it $35/hour to $50/hour.
Who is the person who came up with $15?
2
To believe that a society that soon will be able to design humans using emerging micro-biological technologies such as Crispr-Cas9, and not be able to provide living wages to all its people is simply rubbish.
Here is one idea to start moving toward change right now. At the state level, set a minimum wage at $15 per hour and an apprentice program at $10 per hour. An employee can be in an apprentice program only for a limited time. A percentage of the wages for employees in each program will be paid each month to a credit card account set up at a local bank for that employee. So a person getting $15 per hour will receive say $10 in cash and $5 per hour put into their credit card. The credit card is usable only in the local area. This will ensure a larger share of monies is spent at the local level and “rings around the community”. Set up the general structure and constraints from the state capital but allow local community control.
This plan requires the involvement of a local bank. If they hesitate, invite another bank in or start a local credit union. It also requires state government to give local community control. If they hesitate, vote them out.
Here is one idea to start moving toward change right now. At the state level, set a minimum wage at $15 per hour and an apprentice program at $10 per hour. An employee can be in an apprentice program only for a limited time. A percentage of the wages for employees in each program will be paid each month to a credit card account set up at a local bank for that employee. So a person getting $15 per hour will receive say $10 in cash and $5 per hour put into their credit card. The credit card is usable only in the local area. This will ensure a larger share of monies is spent at the local level and “rings around the community”. Set up the general structure and constraints from the state capital but allow local community control.
This plan requires the involvement of a local bank. If they hesitate, invite another bank in or start a local credit union. It also requires state government to give local community control. If they hesitate, vote them out.
What other parts of every person's life do you want to regulate?
4
How can anyone live on even $15/hour? I don't know why the Editors waste ink fighting for scraps rather than pushing for something closer to $30/hour. It doesn't make sense.
2
Are you kidding me? I bought my first house when I was making $15 an hour...
It’s appearing increasingly inevitable that New York will adopt a $15 minimum wage. With the agreement already in place to bump the wages of fast-food workers, this means that we will be paying kids that work at McDonald’s the equivalent of $30,000 per year, pro-rated for the hours they actually work at what is usually an after-school job. We’re doing this because more and more adults are invading this job space that was never intended for adults trying to feed families.
Expect to see the return of the automat in NYC, or some seriously enhanced level of automation, in restaurants and fast-food joints, that will do away with many of the jobs that people rely on, particularly kids. Upstate venues that don’t attract the volume that NYC does could see closures.
Individual cities that have adopted similar minimum wages are having difficulty paying for some of their employees, such that income based and other taxes have needed to be or will need to be raised – continuing the inexorable increase in state and local taxes that not that long ago were trivial.
The problem isn’t that certain jobs don’t pay enough. The problem is that our economy isn’t generating enough middle class jobs that are WORTH $15 per hour or more, and so we find adults with families performing work that traditionally was performed by kids. Putting businesses OUT of business isn’t the answer.
Expect to see the return of the automat in NYC, or some seriously enhanced level of automation, in restaurants and fast-food joints, that will do away with many of the jobs that people rely on, particularly kids. Upstate venues that don’t attract the volume that NYC does could see closures.
Individual cities that have adopted similar minimum wages are having difficulty paying for some of their employees, such that income based and other taxes have needed to be or will need to be raised – continuing the inexorable increase in state and local taxes that not that long ago were trivial.
The problem isn’t that certain jobs don’t pay enough. The problem is that our economy isn’t generating enough middle class jobs that are WORTH $15 per hour or more, and so we find adults with families performing work that traditionally was performed by kids. Putting businesses OUT of business isn’t the answer.
42
"Putting businesses OUT of business isn’t the answer."
If a decent wage means the end of fast food and Walmart, sign me up.
If a decent wage means the end of fast food and Walmart, sign me up.
2
Richard,
For millions of adult Americans with families, a fast food job or working at Walmart or the local supermarket is the job available.
You're living in a different time. Wake up to reality.
For millions of adult Americans with families, a fast food job or working at Walmart or the local supermarket is the job available.
You're living in a different time. Wake up to reality.
23
What is the answer?
The problem isn't that our economy isn't generating good jobs. We generate tons of manufacturing jobs that should pay decent wages companies just create those jobs in low wage countries because of our free trade deals. What we need is fair trade, which doesn't allow companies to dodge environmental or worker safety regulations when manufacturing products that will imported into the US. Also we need to re-evaluate letting in 1 million immigrants a year plus illegal immigrants when there is clearly an oversupply of labor.
The problem isn't that our economy isn't generating good jobs. We generate tons of manufacturing jobs that should pay decent wages companies just create those jobs in low wage countries because of our free trade deals. What we need is fair trade, which doesn't allow companies to dodge environmental or worker safety regulations when manufacturing products that will imported into the US. Also we need to re-evaluate letting in 1 million immigrants a year plus illegal immigrants when there is clearly an oversupply of labor.
9
Clinton's belief that the lowest paid workers should have to get by on 20% less than Bernie tells me everything I need to know abou who she really fights for. The real value of the minimum wage has been declining since 1968. The proposed $15 minimum only makes up some of that loss. Clinton's Wall Street and big corporate donors know they can count on her to do her best to keep the poor in their place while uttering progressive-sounding happy talk to keep the low-info voters (of all income and education levels) properly confused.
40
Says Chris living in Mexico.
Here in Woodstock NY, where business owners spend six months of the year borrowing money from the sales of the following six months, we don't have the luxury of deciding how much of a business owners money should be paid as a wage to someone else.
See the above comment for true insight into the consequences of raising the minimum wage to some arbitrary but substantially higher rate. $15 minimum will result in creating more jobs: at the fast-food robot factory.
At Clintons suggested rate, it will put more money in workers pockets without savaging the owners of small businesses.
Her position is not some "Bernie-lite" pap, it's actually a well considered argument from a woman who was senator from this state.
Here in Woodstock NY, where business owners spend six months of the year borrowing money from the sales of the following six months, we don't have the luxury of deciding how much of a business owners money should be paid as a wage to someone else.
See the above comment for true insight into the consequences of raising the minimum wage to some arbitrary but substantially higher rate. $15 minimum will result in creating more jobs: at the fast-food robot factory.
At Clintons suggested rate, it will put more money in workers pockets without savaging the owners of small businesses.
Her position is not some "Bernie-lite" pap, it's actually a well considered argument from a woman who was senator from this state.
4
Silly and haas nothing to do with Clinton's positions
1
Chris, can't people disagree without being greedy, selfish, corrupt, hard-hearted and/or ignorant? It is not doing your candidate any favors to be so judgmental. Absolute truth is too big for any of us mortals to see in full. We put it together as best we can from the little glimpses we catch. One's own view is never all there is.
Please look at my earlier comment about running a tiny business on very thin margins. It's easy to think all employers have plenty of money and big profits, but that isn't true of most small businesses. Little storefronts now compete with Amazon, so they can't always raise prices to cover the increase, even though their overhead is higher than internet-only businesses..
I hope you contemplate all the people affected by your chosen policies -- not just the ones you're trying to help, but also the ones who might be collateral damage. They're real people too. And I say this even as I am about to return to being a retail employee instead of an owner.
Please look at my earlier comment about running a tiny business on very thin margins. It's easy to think all employers have plenty of money and big profits, but that isn't true of most small businesses. Little storefronts now compete with Amazon, so they can't always raise prices to cover the increase, even though their overhead is higher than internet-only businesses..
I hope you contemplate all the people affected by your chosen policies -- not just the ones you're trying to help, but also the ones who might be collateral damage. They're real people too. And I say this even as I am about to return to being a retail employee instead of an owner.
1
Another election year, bad democrat idea to put our already hobbling economy in the tank to garner a few teenage votes.
8
You're living in the past, Marshal. We had a recession. It's not just teens taking these jobs. And it isn't because they're stupid or lazy. The recession put a lot of lives into tailspins. It's a fast slide down, but a slow climb back up.
If they really care, they would be shouting for universal health care (+some sort of supplemental pension scheme for all) that will increase the mobility of workers. oh no, that would be really trying to solve some problems.
I am not necessarily against the increase if it can be proven that with in a year or two that the amount money spent by our government for food stamps and Aid to Dependent children drops by a significant percentage. If this does not happen than this is just another government dictated give away. In which we the tax paying public are paying more for freeloaders and receiving less.
7
What is the government "giving away" here? Employers are paying the higher wage, not government. Employers like Walmart that you subsidized with your tax dollars by keeping their employees from starving under bridges. Are they freeloaders if they work full-time and still don't make enough to survive? I'd say it was the Waltons with their stratospheric fortune and employees on food stamps that were the real freeloaders. But you never see the Waltons, so you never think of them that way.
1
$15 per hour minimum wage may make a nice slogan but Mr. Cuomo is not addressing the thousands upon thousands of our states weakest and most needy people that are served by thousands upon thousands of workers (in not for profit organizations) that are reimbursed BY THE STATE for these workers salaries. If the State does not cover these not for profit salary increases, they will be forced out of business (literally not figuratively, they operate on very thin margins) and their residents and services will fall to the State of New York at FAR FAR higher costs. If the State DOES cover the raises, the state will take on an overwhelming cost it is not prepared for. The Governor derides for profit companies of paying so little that the state must make it up with 'welfare' type services. But here he is backing the State into a corner that will cost the NY taxpayers far more if this plan is implemented. He has tried to shift the cost of Mental Health and Developmental Disability Services to the private sector to save money for years and years and has done so successfully, but will now either put those not for profits out of business or NY Taxpayers will pay the differences in salarys. This is not progressive, this is politics.
3
This is a really good deal for the state and federal governments due to the increase in payroll taxes paid out of higher hourly wages. Sadly It won't be the key to reducing poverty and more than likely it will have a negative impact on many upstate communities and businesses who are already taxed 12.7% of their income across the board in New York State.
6
Do they have any comprehension of how many unemployed people outside the city area would be delighted to work for, say, $12 per hour?
Six reasons why the minimum wage should NOT be increased! See http://worksnewage.blogspot.com/2013/12/six-points-against-higher-minimu... .
Six reasons why the minimum wage should NOT be increased! See http://worksnewage.blogspot.com/2013/12/six-points-against-higher-minimu... .
6
A minimum wage boost to $15/hour would be wonderful for the tech industry, as it would spur accelerated replacement of low wage workers with technology. Self-driving delivery vehicles, automated fast food restaurants, increased use of robots in warehouses and factories, increased use of smart software and systems to automate clerical, retail and customer service jobs will come ever so much sooner.
18
Why not make a high school diploma or some other educational/vocational attainment a requirement to receive a higher minimum wage? It would be a shame to abandon the notion that there's at least some connection between an employee's pay and his or her skills. Simply forcing employers to pay unskilled workers more will only lead to more of their disintermediation.
8
How ironic that Hillary Clinton posing as a "progressive" (if you remember that early debate) with both her home and her campaign headquarters in New York still favors a $12/hour minimum wage while the state is moving quickly to enact the Bernie Sanders' and this paper's favored $15/hour minimum wage. I guess the voters here now know who the true progressive is and who is tethered to the Wall Street corporate interests. I hope they remember it on April 19. At its heart, a progressive believes in "progress" for all, not just the few, economic elite and their six-figure speaking fees and seven-figure incomes.
7
The quest for a minimum living wage for workers everywhere is most laudable. But when are we going to achieve the ultimate goal, a maximum wage?
Sure, that would mean a redefinition of wealth. And certainly it would mean sending certain 'over achievers' to treatment centers for their greed. But as oceans rise and mass consumerism gets its come-uppence, there is really no other choice.
Sure, that would mean a redefinition of wealth. And certainly it would mean sending certain 'over achievers' to treatment centers for their greed. But as oceans rise and mass consumerism gets its come-uppence, there is really no other choice.
24
Mark, You nailed it! Here we are talking about $15 an hour when a very few have so much money they don't know what to do with it. Spread the wealth, baby! And how do we do that? With taxes. Look to Scandinavia as the model. That's the only hope for a sound and prosperous populous.
3
'Maximum wage' is the asymmetrical imperative of this equation. It is obscene that the 2% continue to accumulate wealth beyond ethical limits, corrupting government and social institutions in the process, and condemning the other 98% into indigence and despair.
6
@Mark
It's a great question, Mark. How much is enough?
While I don't know if capping incomes and giving the presumed tax revenues to corrupt government officials is the answer, I do think your question raises more interesting points than the minimum wage.
It's a great question, Mark. How much is enough?
While I don't know if capping incomes and giving the presumed tax revenues to corrupt government officials is the answer, I do think your question raises more interesting points than the minimum wage.
1
I've been both employer and employee, and I can see it both ways. $15 makes sense in urban areas, which usually have a high cost of living. I'm not sure it makes sense everywhere, especially for small businesses or mom & pop operations like the one I had, especially in low-cost-living areas. We paid $12 and that was a huge stretch on our cash flow. Big profitable companies can absorb the costs, but there's only so long a small business can go with the owner not making enough to live on.
I recognize that business will pick up when people have more money, but unless that happens right away, the business could be in bad shape. Our money was in inventory, not cash. And we could not get a loan without putting our respective houses up for collateral.
Minimum needs to go up, but doubling it everywhere could create serious problems for smaller businesses in some areas, unless there's some help for owners who don't have the cash. I had great employees, but at $15 I would have had no choice but to cut staffing only to really critical times, and ended up working a lot more hours myself.
I recognize that business will pick up when people have more money, but unless that happens right away, the business could be in bad shape. Our money was in inventory, not cash. And we could not get a loan without putting our respective houses up for collateral.
Minimum needs to go up, but doubling it everywhere could create serious problems for smaller businesses in some areas, unless there's some help for owners who don't have the cash. I had great employees, but at $15 I would have had no choice but to cut staffing only to really critical times, and ended up working a lot more hours myself.
24
Effectively, what you are saying about urban, high-cost areas makes no sense. Aren't all of the employers' other expenses also higher?
You cannot fix one problem without creating another one. What happens when rent is too high? You give out vouchers. Then their is more money sloshing around the market, increasing demand for apartments, so the rent compensates for the infusion of cash.
The more you try to engineer, and prevent, economic behaviors the more often you unleash forces to work around it. That is what human beings do. They "see" themselves as rational and modest, but everyone wants more for themselves.
The only solution is a society that willingly imposes limits on its own appetites.
Do you see anything in our culture that pursues that aim without being mocked mercilessly by the "it's my right" culture?
You cannot fix one problem without creating another one. What happens when rent is too high? You give out vouchers. Then their is more money sloshing around the market, increasing demand for apartments, so the rent compensates for the infusion of cash.
The more you try to engineer, and prevent, economic behaviors the more often you unleash forces to work around it. That is what human beings do. They "see" themselves as rational and modest, but everyone wants more for themselves.
The only solution is a society that willingly imposes limits on its own appetites.
Do you see anything in our culture that pursues that aim without being mocked mercilessly by the "it's my right" culture?
6
Great; so everyone will pay for jobs that are not worth $15 an hour and all will go up. Robots and their usefulness are coming very fast and will be utilized before this law is enforced. Remember secretaries? Cashiers and others are going the same way.
14
Meanwhile, your average CEO earns $5,000 per hour, even if he crashes the company.
Yet you want me to believe that paying a worker (who gets fired if they aren't doing their job) $15/hour is somehow unreasonable.
...Huh.
Yet you want me to believe that paying a worker (who gets fired if they aren't doing their job) $15/hour is somehow unreasonable.
...Huh.
19
Joe - no, the average CEO does NOT earn thousands of dollars an hour. Go to The bls.gov website for accurate data.
1