A degrading, condescending and uncalled for attitude was expressed in the remarks by Raymond Moore. The central content about riding coattails, however, is dead-on. Women have a choice - specifically in mandated equal prize money tournaments such as Grand Slam events. They can play against men and earn the equal pay based on their tennis playing ability. They can start a separate organization like the LPGA in golf or the WNBA in basketball and receive pay based on the marketplace revenues their attendance and advertising revenues generate. Or they can behave like sexist hypocrites demanding equal pay solely on gender entitlement without earning it through either ability or free market forces. It is astonishing to me that the obvious sexist double of the last is not called out for what it is. Such is the blindness of our politically correct and equality ideologue governed times.
3
sort of an aside.....
equal work for equal......
why do women tennis players receive the same prize money as men BUT DO NOT PLAY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME (ie grand slams women play 3 sets)??
equal work for equal......
why do women tennis players receive the same prize money as men BUT DO NOT PLAY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME (ie grand slams women play 3 sets)??
2
Nice, Harvey, and that doesn't even include mention of the David Foster (Colgate CEO) and Dinah Shore days of yore, when the better marketing was being done on the women's side during the sport's commercial infancy. Best of all thanks to your piece, it was good to see Chrissie in her pre-marital days...my first unrequited love (please don't tell her).
The solution is very simple. Lets abolish the artificial distinction of men's vs women's tennis and just have TENNIS. At the end of the day, the people who are better will be paid more...the end.
2
Do most people pay to see men's or women's tennis matches? This should be an easy question to answer...so do so, and be done with all this noise.
1
I'm not a fan of some women's sports because, quite frankly, they pale in comparison with their male counterparts. Basketball is the best example of this especially this time of year when we see these incredible men's NCAA tournament games. The level of play in the NCAA women's games are just not so good.
But tennis is the last sport I would put in this category. The best pro woman will lose to a good male collegiate player. But the elite woman's game has always been enjoyable to watch.
But tennis is the last sport I would put in this category. The best pro woman will lose to a good male collegiate player. But the elite woman's game has always been enjoyable to watch.
1
If there were no cost considerations, one way to make women's tennis more interesting would be to make smaller tennis courts for therm. Another way would be to replace them by men.
1
I will readily concede, that men play tennis differently than women, however, that does not mean, that women should not be paid equal prize money, any mens game and any womens game can be either boring or exciting, inspiring lackluster or plain awful, so if you want to put it on a totally equal footing, you would have to judge each game by its merits, pay by the quality of the individual game, not just by its outcome, and that of course is not possible. Yes, I am a woman and I find watching Serena Williams a lot more exciting than any of the men-if I remember correctly, last year at Wimbleton, the womens final was sold out long before the mens.
1
How unfortunate all this is! Tennis is somewhat tarnished, I believe. There was controversy at the Australian Open, then Sharapova's admission. As I am a huge fan of Novak, I sincerely hope that his comments were hastily made and his true beliefs will come out.
1
There have been great, dramatic rivalries in women's tennis, often overshadowing the men's side. I remember Years ago men fell into a rut of serve /volley where the game was over after 1-3 swings while women played longer more interesting rallies.
3
Djokovic's first coach was Jelena Gencic, a woman. We all know Djokovic is great, but he must be even more remarkable to have come so far with a coach who spent a week every month weeping & throwing tantrums, and then the following week incapacitated by cramps.
6
Seems men's tennis definitely the historical lead over women 's in one way->JERKS->
Tilden, Riggs, McKinley, Connors, McEnroe, and the current #1.
The women's side only has Margaret Court.
Tilden, Riggs, McKinley, Connors, McEnroe, and the current #1.
The women's side only has Margaret Court.
6
As a (male) lifelong tennis and once semi-competitive soccer player, I can tell you that women's tennis and soccer is far more exciting then men's. Women play both sports with far more technique and precision, vs shear force. In soccer especially, the game in the last three decades has become so physical and aggressive that is no longer the football of my youth. In fact, when I want to show my kids good soccer, we watch a women's game. And, just like tennis, American women have done more for the sport then men, actually winning!
7
It is the LEVEL of play that matters!! Men's tennis is by far superior and exciting to watch. The top 100 men can clean up the top 5 women. Do we equate high school basketball to college? College to pro? A Mazda to a Porsche?
This distortion of reality to appease the weak at heart ( not to hurt feelings) or mush in brains ( cannot discern levels of quality or performance) has to stop! This is the cancer of American society , promoting mediocrity and accelerating our downfall.
This distortion of reality to appease the weak at heart ( not to hurt feelings) or mush in brains ( cannot discern levels of quality or performance) has to stop! This is the cancer of American society , promoting mediocrity and accelerating our downfall.
2
you must be out of your mind if you think a player ranked from 10-100 can beat Serena
Isaiah, I hate to break it to you, but the 100th ranked man would absolutely mop the floor with Serena. I'm not intending to offend, but this is a fact. If you don't believe me, then ask yourself, if Serena is as good as you think, why isn't she playing in the men's draw?
In fact, why have a separate 'women's' side at all...if everyone is equal?
In fact, why have a separate 'women's' side at all...if everyone is equal?
1
Moore's comments were tasteless, but he's not entirely wrong about the money side of things. Looking beyond the Grand Slams, Indian Wells, and Miami, the ATP has a lot more prize money, because they are a more attractive commercial property by virtue of higher attendance and tv rights money. It's only in those six tournaments where the pay is the same.
I tend to think the men should earn more in the Grand Slams because they play best-of-five, and because it's generally more competitive; it may be the same 3-4 men winning all the Grand Slams, but if you look at all the matches played, more of the mens' matches go beyond the minimum number of sets. And for the finals? The mens' finals are usually epic battles, 4 hours or longer. The women more often than not go 6-3 6-2, over in an hour.
But Moore should just have kept his mouth shut; the men generally ARE earning more, just not in the tournaments with mixed fields, which are not the entire season.
I tend to think the men should earn more in the Grand Slams because they play best-of-five, and because it's generally more competitive; it may be the same 3-4 men winning all the Grand Slams, but if you look at all the matches played, more of the mens' matches go beyond the minimum number of sets. And for the finals? The mens' finals are usually epic battles, 4 hours or longer. The women more often than not go 6-3 6-2, over in an hour.
But Moore should just have kept his mouth shut; the men generally ARE earning more, just not in the tournaments with mixed fields, which are not the entire season.
3
This may be more of a question then a comment. But I don't think male and female tennis players get paid the same. Most tennis events are not combined ATP/WTA events. I believe that the prize money in the solo ATP men's events, on average, is higher than it is in the solo WTA women's events. I think it's fantastic that men and women get paid the same in the combined events. They should.
But i don't think it is accurate to say that there is equal pay in tennis. And i'm not sure there should be. Like all sports, revenue is derived directly (ticket sales) or indirectly (sponsorship and TV deals) from fan interest. If there is more interest in the men's game, translating to more ticket sales, higher ticket prices, and more sponsorship and TV money, the men should be paid more. The extra money should not go to the suits.
Likewise, If there is more interest in the women's game, women should be paid more. The idea behind equal pay is that men and women should get paid the same for doing the same exact job at the same general level. But in certain professions, such as professional sports, pay is pegged towards performance (for sports, some combination of winning and generating fan interest). Right now, it seems that there is more fan interest in men's tennis than women, which should and i believe does translate to men getting paid more. That disparity (and the exception of having equal pay in the combined events) may give some context to Djokovic's comments.
But i don't think it is accurate to say that there is equal pay in tennis. And i'm not sure there should be. Like all sports, revenue is derived directly (ticket sales) or indirectly (sponsorship and TV deals) from fan interest. If there is more interest in the men's game, translating to more ticket sales, higher ticket prices, and more sponsorship and TV money, the men should be paid more. The extra money should not go to the suits.
Likewise, If there is more interest in the women's game, women should be paid more. The idea behind equal pay is that men and women should get paid the same for doing the same exact job at the same general level. But in certain professions, such as professional sports, pay is pegged towards performance (for sports, some combination of winning and generating fan interest). Right now, it seems that there is more fan interest in men's tennis than women, which should and i believe does translate to men getting paid more. That disparity (and the exception of having equal pay in the combined events) may give some context to Djokovic's comments.
2
At the Australian Open in 2016 the ticket price to the Men's final was $395 Australian and the Women's final was $295, before any concessions were applied. This price differential would have made up for the greater number of sets (possibly) played by the men. Some of the smaller tennis events, played in places like Cincinnati and Montreal are best of three sets for both men and women. I think women would be prepared to play the best of 5 sets at the majors if that was what the tournament organizers wanted. Before blaming the women for having it too easy one must remember that it is the tournament organizers, not the women, who make the final decisions as to how many sets they will play in a match.
2
Let's not forget the years we endured watching Ivan Lendl. The secret sauce of this sport is its variety, it's inclusiveness, the personalities, the battles, the sex appeal of these amazingly fit attractive, explosive bodies--both male and female....the doubles, mixed doubles, the ups and downs. It's not one person, one sex, one victory though it does come to that when you see that match that sucks you in. What draws me in may be different than what draws you. It's the whole shebang! Just ask the guys standing around the Camilla Giorgio practice court at Indian wells. Since I was a little girl watching tennis on TV, it captivated me, and fueled my belief that tennis was a sport that celebrated the individual pursuit of excellence, whatever that may be, even if it's sometimes boring like Lendl it was still great to see.. And yes, let women play the best three out of five because I think it would raise their games to a whole new level and would be just or even more thrilling to watch.
1
As far as I can remember, the issue with women's tennis has been that the top 4, not to say the top 2 have rarely been contested by even slightly lower ranked players. Mens' tennis is infinitely more difficult for the top players.
3
In tennis MOST of the players, male and female, benefit from the media coverage and attention paid to a few top players of both genders who generate the most "buzz" for the sport.
The top players are awarded a ton of money, not only as prize money, but in endorsements. The players who really need more are the lower ranked players.
I do think it’s silly to have the 5 set/ 3 set difference in the slams. Billie Jean King suggested that all the matches be best of 3. Her reasoning was that it would reduce injuries. Makes sense. And while it’s exciting to hear about a close 5 setter, I don't know how many fans actually watch the entire thing. Who can sit around watching tennis for 5 hours?
The top players are awarded a ton of money, not only as prize money, but in endorsements. The players who really need more are the lower ranked players.
I do think it’s silly to have the 5 set/ 3 set difference in the slams. Billie Jean King suggested that all the matches be best of 3. Her reasoning was that it would reduce injuries. Makes sense. And while it’s exciting to hear about a close 5 setter, I don't know how many fans actually watch the entire thing. Who can sit around watching tennis for 5 hours?
3
Seems to me that both men and women are capable of both brilliant and boring tennis. It just depends on the day and the matchup. As for the pay issue, I think it should come down to the perceived quality of entertainment, and that should be gauged by how many people come to see the respective players and by t.v. ratings points. Men who insist that women should earn less than men in the majors because they play 2 of 3 instead of 3 of 5 are missing the point that in the 2 out of 3 scenario, if you lose the first set you are under immense pressure to win the next set or else you're out. Such pressure doesn't exist in the men's game where there are plenty of instances where guys have lost the first two sets and come back to win three in a row. Personally I have found the women's game to be much more compelling for quite a while.
3
It is the LEVEL of play that matters!! Men's tennis is by far superior and exciting to watch. The top 100 men can clean up the top 5 women. Do we equate high school basketball to college? College to pro? A Mazda to a Porsche?
This distortion of reality to appease the weak at heart ( not to hurt feelings) or mush in brains ( cannot discern levels of quality or performance) has to stop! This is the cancer of American society , promoting mediocrity and accelerating our downfall.
This distortion of reality to appease the weak at heart ( not to hurt feelings) or mush in brains ( cannot discern levels of quality or performance) has to stop! This is the cancer of American society , promoting mediocrity and accelerating our downfall.
2
Really!?!? It is 2016!!!!!!!!! Men should just shut up and stop talking about women...since obviously ignorant and not willing to learn anything!
"Equal pay for equal work is important to women until it comes to the Slams in tennis. Then, they're as unfair as the next guy." - American Zeitgeist
1
For some commentors bleating on about women tennis players playing men, first off tennis is NOT the NFL and as such this talk misses the point in terms of pure and simple physiology: men develop more muscle mass than women and as such are stronger. Those asking for a winner take all tournament are holding men up as the standard for ALL play when women can and do play tennis quite well only differently. Outside of the Williams sisters and a few others in terms of service speed few women would be able to match men's speed. Does that mean they are lesser? NO! Only different and that is what sticks in my craw about Moore's statement. Playing the way men play is seen as the only method of playing tennis that is valued. The women play crafty, finesse tennis that does involve power, try reading Serena Williams serve or one of her returns for that matter. There is no need for her to telegraph where she plans to hit the ball because brute force is not the end all of playing quality tennis only part of it. So pleeeese stop this madness about winner take all between the men and women. Anyone with any REAL knowledge of human biology would understand it for the madness that it is.
3
I certainly do expect those sort of comments from an older man from South Africa. And his other comment about how the "physically and competitively attractive players" will be able to take up "the mantle of leadership once Serena decides to stop"-- that is sooo dismissive of Serena and her accomplishments! Ugh. I do believe he is still living in another century. In his mind, the world is still how he grew up in South Africa. I'm sure of it.
4
As a child growing up in the 50s, the first - and only - name I recall associating with tennis was Althea Gibson. I don't believe I could remember a male tennis player from that era if my life depended on it!
4
What is so revolting about this affair is that PC bullies like Harvey Araton don't care whether clueless bumblers like Raymond Moore accidentally blurted out the truth or not. In fact, in Araton's view, Moore's offense was all the greater if he was blurting out the truth. It is the truth that Araton, as a fellow traveler of the feminazis, is desperate to suppress because it spoils the feminist narrative.
Isn't it proof of the tennis inferiority of women that they have tournaments of their own? If they were competitive with men, wouldn't they be litigating to compete in the men's tournaments? (Now, before you start screeching, I didn't say "inferior", I said "tennis inferiority" -- but light-years superior at tennis than, say, me. PS I don't get a league of my own).
The Times has long been peddling the monstrous absurdity that men and women are the same apart from their sex organs and, possibly, their secondary sexual characteristics. A ridiculous premise like this leads to ridiculous conclusions -- any disparity between men and women is because of sexism. So the atmosphere is thick with endless venomous charges about man's supposed inhumanity to woman.
Some of Trump's support likely is a reaction against people like Araton who rule the airwaves and intimidate anyone who dares violate the PC bullies' speech code.
Isn't it proof of the tennis inferiority of women that they have tournaments of their own? If they were competitive with men, wouldn't they be litigating to compete in the men's tournaments? (Now, before you start screeching, I didn't say "inferior", I said "tennis inferiority" -- but light-years superior at tennis than, say, me. PS I don't get a league of my own).
The Times has long been peddling the monstrous absurdity that men and women are the same apart from their sex organs and, possibly, their secondary sexual characteristics. A ridiculous premise like this leads to ridiculous conclusions -- any disparity between men and women is because of sexism. So the atmosphere is thick with endless venomous charges about man's supposed inhumanity to woman.
Some of Trump's support likely is a reaction against people like Araton who rule the airwaves and intimidate anyone who dares violate the PC bullies' speech code.
4
I don't know what universe Mr. Maitland inhabits (or perhaps more relevantly what time era), but the "equality" of tennis in terms of interest, popularity, and display of skills, albeit different styles of play, has existed for decades. To suggest that a blip in time in the perception of men's "superior" play represents reality that should change would the players get paid, has to be coming from someone who isn't very old or hasn't really followed the game over the past 40 years.
1
It is the LEVEL of play that matters!! Men's tennis is by far superior and exciting to watch. The top 100 men can clean up the top 5 women. Do we equate high school basketball to college? College to pro? A Mazda to a Porsche?
This distortion of reality to appease the weak at heart ( not to hurt feelings) or mush in brains ( cannot discern levels of quality or performance) has to stop! This is the cancer of American society , promoting mediocrity and accelerating our downfall.
This distortion of reality to appease the weak at heart ( not to hurt feelings) or mush in brains ( cannot discern levels of quality or performance) has to stop! This is the cancer of American society , promoting mediocrity and accelerating our downfall.
1
It would be hard to find a person who watched more tennis then me when Chrissy, Jimmy, Bjorn, Stefan, John, Martina, Steffie and Ivan were in their prime. The game had grace, power, class and strategy in those days. Time has unfortunately turned the game to simply power and grunting which has made it dull & unwatchable for me. Woman's tennis has forged a substantial legacy of its own for sure - equal pay for equal play - absolutely - when the women start playing 5-setters. Until then, I can understand a difference - I don't necessarily agree, but I understand it.
2
Billie Jean's book on power tennis was my bible when I learned how to play.
3
This guy couldn't possibly be that ignorant. For some reason, he wanted to get himself fired.
3
He thinks everyone gets excited for the winter olympics to watch the male figure skaters too.
4
Mr. Moore seemed to have forgotten that Martina Hingis preceded Roger Federer as the Swiss champion.
3
I'm a big believer in equal pay for equal play.
However, how do you square the fact that in majors that consist of 3 out of 5 for men and 2 out of 3 for women and a men's final could last longer than the entire time that the winner of the women's draw played throughout the tournament.
I love the sport, but that is just a little to much for me to understand.
If it was two out of three for both than I could understand the same pay concept.
However, how do you square the fact that in majors that consist of 3 out of 5 for men and 2 out of 3 for women and a men's final could last longer than the entire time that the winner of the women's draw played throughout the tournament.
I love the sport, but that is just a little to much for me to understand.
If it was two out of three for both than I could understand the same pay concept.
2
Time to pay all players based a formula that converts a portion of the ticket sales and TV viewership of their matches.
http://media.fyre.co/xNyi46LATHCtB0JBld73_murr.png
Equality consists in the same treatment of similar persons.
Aristotle
Equality consists in the same treatment of similar persons.
Aristotle
There are quite a few areas where the playing field is equal for both sexes independently of physical characteristics, such as chess, mathematics, music composing, architecture, cooking, engineering, literature, etc. Studying those could yield a fair evaluation whether or not the two sexes are equal. I am very curious what the outcome would be.
2
Equal talent and ability yes - sadly you wouldn't find equal pay.
1
You have some catching up to do if you think "the playing field is equal" for men and women in the fields you mentioned. But more than that, it is truly bizarre to me to see how this article is bringing so many out-of-touch men out of the woodwork, chomping at the bit to talk about simplistic versions of the question "Are women just as good as men?!" as if they haven't had an adult conversation about gender equality and feminism in the last 45 years. This incident has broader implications than just for tennis, but it's interesting to see how much of a nerve it touches for the old-school, change-resistant, but-we-can-still-lift-heaver-things contingent.
4
To be honest, if I follow tennis at all, I follow the women's game. I have no idea who today's top male players are, but I do know who Serena and Venus Williams and Maria Sharapova are.
5
I never thought I would live to say this, but I enjoy the women's game much more than the Men's game.
4
Seriously? You never heard oh Federer, Djokavic, Nadal, Murray? I do not believe you. Very disingenuous.
2
The women's game is different, thats for sure. Much more nuanced and entertaining.
4
My grandfather played doubles tennis and was a champion. He always said that the differences between men and women were in our minds and that people needed a swift kick to their backsides to wake up and treat everyone equally in this world. Amazing to her the so called world number one man sound like a complete idiot. I WILL NOT BE WATCHING HIM IN THE FUTURE.
4
I applaud Moore for his honesty, although although his intelligence is questionable. I can imagine Trump saying, "Dammit, I wish I would have said that!" The good thing about a well timed misogynistic statement is that it can thin the heard of the neanderthals still in high places.
6
I grew up in the 1970's. My hero was Chris Evert, and I spent much time watching her play against Martina Navratilova. My tennis racket was a "Chris Evert" brand by Wilson. I took private lessons, and played on my high school team. Before her it was Billie Jean King. Why do these old white men think women just sprang from the ground? Are they suffering from collective memory loss?
6
But why caption the S. Graf photo "one of the greatest WOMEN players of 20th century?" She was one of the greatest players of that period and ever, female OR male - shame on NYT for that. Araton deserves much applause for this piece - WELL DONE!
3
No, Kathy, she was one of the greatest WOMAN players. She would not be able to win a single game from any of the top male players of the day. So you have to make the distinction, in a way that you don't have to when talking about the best male players. They can safely be referred to as the greatest players of all time, without reference to gender. Get it?
2
"She would not be able to win a single game from any of the top male players of the day."
Many men spout this and it's ridiculous. Clearly you've never watched a Pro tour mixed doubles match. The men don't hold back and the women are expected to be able to return the men's strongest serves and groundstrokes. And they do.
Many men spout this and it's ridiculous. Clearly you've never watched a Pro tour mixed doubles match. The men don't hold back and the women are expected to be able to return the men's strongest serves and groundstrokes. And they do.
What a fool. He has no place in the public eye. I find the photo of him giving the trophy to Serena highly offensive. He is too close to her and has his hand around her waist. blech. She is a class-act. So glad he has 'resigned'.
4
In the name of equality, men should have higher prizes when they play 5 sets; and women play 3 sets. Men simply play more. When there are 3 sets for both, equal pay. Now, billionnaire Larry Ellison fired the director because he just wants to simulate his feelings of equality before women. Does anyone ask why he only has all-male crews in his racing yacht???
3
Moore's comments are obviously inexcusable, ignorant, and just plain untrue. They are also uncharacteristic of the Ray Moore I knew personally back when I was a young pro prospect circa 1980. Moore was a player with modest physical talents, but he routinely reached the late rounds of big tournaments through superior strategy and brain power. He out-thought opponents. Off the court, he was also extraordinarily worldly, gracious, articulate, and thoughtful, bearing the burden of a caucasian who grew up in RSA during apartheid.
Another comment here, from "Speculator", suggested "age-related cognitive decline". Having known Moore long ago, that type of organic breakdown is, to me, the most likely explanation for Moore's buffoonery. If I were him I'd head to a neurologist for a full exam & cognitive workup.
Another comment here, from "Speculator", suggested "age-related cognitive decline". Having known Moore long ago, that type of organic breakdown is, to me, the most likely explanation for Moore's buffoonery. If I were him I'd head to a neurologist for a full exam & cognitive workup.
6
Perhaps it's time for a women CEO!
God knows their tons of qualified types waiting to be asked to the game in that capacity. So just ask the fans will cheer the decision!
God knows their tons of qualified types waiting to be asked to the game in that capacity. So just ask the fans will cheer the decision!
1
I am deeply disappointed that more of the male players didn't speak truth to power about this sexist and loathsome man's commentary. John McEnroe s the only one this paper mentioned yesterday. Where are they? Not only should they have condemned Moore, they should also have taken Novak to task. Novak's feeble attempt to reverses his sexist statement reminded me of the myths espoused decades ago about women. Can these men only feel good about themselves if they see themselves as superior to women? Don't they understand how they have diminished themselves?
5
Well, the women make the same prize money as the men at the US Open and Wimbledon. Although they play less, best 2 out 3 sets, versus the men, best 3 out 5. So, the women are overpaid. However, the thought of the women playing best 3 out of 5 sets put me to sleep.
4
For most non-tennis sports fans like me, the Williams sisters are the main draw. I watch them whenever I can. They are phenomenal athletes. It was very good to hear Serena Williams speak up and to know she is a champion in other areas of life as well as in tennis.
5
Compared to the men's game women's tennis is hopelessly boring. How many times have fans stayed until late at night watching a competitive five setter at the US Open or other grand slam. None, 0, nada. Women's matches are often over by the 2nd commercial break. In most, but not all, cases, they are non competitive. There are probably 50 men who can win a match against any opponent on a given day...there are probably less than 5 that fit that description on the women's side. What justifies the same payday...? The only thing..political correctness. The women should definitely play 3/5 matches in all grand slams.
4
Men - 5 sets tops
Women - 3 sets tops
Get your facts straight and basic tennis rule before speaking. And you obviously did not read the article as it states that until Roger and Nadal showed up, it was the other way around.
Again, educate yourself first, please.
Women - 3 sets tops
Get your facts straight and basic tennis rule before speaking. And you obviously did not read the article as it states that until Roger and Nadal showed up, it was the other way around.
Again, educate yourself first, please.
3
It was never ever the other way around! Men have always been the marquee players! Women should play best of 5 in majors but the sponsors, tournament officials & networks know that the viewing audience won't be there. It's the same for basketball ( college/pros ) the
men feed the girls game. Let's not try to be PC - It's business and fact!
men feed the girls game. Let's not try to be PC - It's business and fact!
1
Kareem abdul Jabbar wrote a wonderful op-ed a few months ago about how tough it can be to be a woman athlete in a man's world. He focused on the Williams sisters, whom he clearly respects as athletes. I was impressed, but not really surprised, that one of the greatest male athletes of the 20th century holds female athletes in high esteem. I wish sporting organizations sought out bureaucrats with similar appreciation for women's athletics.
6
I wonder how many more of the tournament leadership team also need to move on now that their leader has said what he thought and then had to retire.
2
Fair is fair, let females compete in all sport in the world Olympics including weightlifting. Let females play professional football, soccer, and basketball with the men.
4
Oh my. In an article that purports to condemn misogynistic stereotypes in professional tennis, the NY Times describes Steffi Graf in an accompanying photo as "one of the greatest FEMALE tennis players of the 20th century." Please. Graf is unquestionably one of the greatest athletes in any sport of the 20th century, period.
4
True enough: it takes a man to be biased against women and their importance
I hope that all the young millenial women who think that we are post gender see this. See that even a top male tennis player of their own generation do not really think women are equal. This is a battle that has to be won over and over again.
8
Thank you!! Well said.
2
Until the top women can beat the top men, they are, by definition, not equal. They are vastly inferior.
2
Only peripherally related to the subject at hand, I've always wondered why women's physical response reflected in their service returns appears gendered. For example, if their reaction times are the equal of men's then (with the exception of a very few) the slower serves in the women's game should be "sitting ducks." Yet they do not appear to be. Why?
I'm not even going to raise the issue of on-court coaching. Those unfamiliar with the sport should know that only the women have such coaching available. What precisely is the nature of this gendered intellectual shortfall?
I'm not even going to raise the issue of on-court coaching. Those unfamiliar with the sport should know that only the women have such coaching available. What precisely is the nature of this gendered intellectual shortfall?
2
Obviously the WTA stands on it's own and is a thriving business pulling about 1/2 the revenue of the ATP. The joint tournaments benefit from the presence of both the ATP and the WTA and there's no easy way to separate their contributions.
The fact that the WTA is at best equivalent to a men's $10k futures event is not overly relevant to fans as evidenced by the success of WTA standalone tournaments. The WTA vs ATP overall proficiency has more in common with PGA vs LPGA than it does with NBA vs WNBA although speed and strength are far more important in tennis than in golf. You can't even realistically argue that skill levels are the same because the women don't compete against the speed and power that the men do. Hiring male hitting partners which most WTA players do still doesn't give them the same level of competition to hone their skills against.
Bottom line - men's tennis draws more than women's and men are rewarded with more prize money at stand alone events. The joint events benefit from the presence of both the ATP and the WTA and if they want to pay equal prize money nobody is getting hurt.
The fact that the WTA is at best equivalent to a men's $10k futures event is not overly relevant to fans as evidenced by the success of WTA standalone tournaments. The WTA vs ATP overall proficiency has more in common with PGA vs LPGA than it does with NBA vs WNBA although speed and strength are far more important in tennis than in golf. You can't even realistically argue that skill levels are the same because the women don't compete against the speed and power that the men do. Hiring male hitting partners which most WTA players do still doesn't give them the same level of competition to hone their skills against.
Bottom line - men's tennis draws more than women's and men are rewarded with more prize money at stand alone events. The joint events benefit from the presence of both the ATP and the WTA and if they want to pay equal prize money nobody is getting hurt.
4
What's the compensation formula? Tennis is first a business, and so it would seem that it should be based on some measure of draw - who brings the dollars in? That's quite tricky to figure out. As Hingis points out, there was an era when the women dominated the attention and so it was quite arguable that they should have been paid MORE. The current era is mixed. There is no US men's star who is even remotely at Serena's level in terms of attention/draw. To some extent appearance fees (if openly allowed) could be a pretty decent pricing mechanism. That wouldn't work for the dominant tournaments like the US Open but it would indicate some 'true' market value. No rap on someone like John Isner, but does anyone think that he would get paid close to what Serena or Maria Sharapova would get to be at a tournament? Might be interesting to compare with skating where I suspect that the women are clearly much bigger draws. Do they make more money? By any reasonable standard, they should.
5
Well, if he won them he would.
2
How foolish it sounds to simply set prize money on popularity - in the stands, on TV ? I never watch NASCAR but it probably generates much more $$ than any tennis match. Should tennis be dumped then ? What is the revenue for ice skating, poker, Downton vs NFL & NBA ?
A robust market has many niches. Good enough revenue keeps variety alive.
A robust market has many niches. Good enough revenue keeps variety alive.
2
Pay is not a function of difficulty. Squash tournaments are very hard to win, but the audience is small and the purses reflect that. Not enough people care. Ditto climbing El Capitan without alone without equipment. Dollars have to come from somewhere and it reflects demand as measured by popularity. You don't watch NASCAR but a lot of people do. There is no intrinsic value here, just that expressed in terms of interest and choice. .
With respect to the Isner point, the smaller tournaments rely disproportionately on stars. If you were running a tournament, would you pay Serena or John more to show up? I think that the answer is clear and does reflect drawing power. Bigger draws would of course be reflected in bigger purses.
With respect to the Isner point, the smaller tournaments rely disproportionately on stars. If you were running a tournament, would you pay Serena or John more to show up? I think that the answer is clear and does reflect drawing power. Bigger draws would of course be reflected in bigger purses.
1
People are surprised by his comments? He is evidently simply unintelligent and/or uncouth enough to say what many men of his generation really think. People think sexism is over, that things have improved. The fact is, things have not improved if you are dealing with certain generations. And it is still mostly men of his age who are running things. These types of attitudes and statements have simply gone underground. They are covert now -- and most men are smart enough to keep it that way. You know who doesn't think this way? The Millennials! I say bring them on! They grew up with working moms, are in school with just as many (or more) women than men, and they don't question equality. The last thing I want is for these young people to be heading off in to these organizations managed by men four decades older than they are. The don't need to be exposed to and expected to work under these old thoughts. It perpetuates the old systems. Time to move on.
6
Then, Ms. Millennial, who grew up with equality. would you favor dumping women's tennis entirely and letting the women play with men? As equals?
Yeah...I didn't think so.
Yeah...I didn't think so.
Moore's comments are wrong because they are sexist. The fact that women are good at tennis is irrelevant to the fact that Moore is a chauvinist jerk.
4
As a South African I find myself cringing at Raymond Moore's horribly off-key comments! Unfortunately his sentiments are all too common among a certain generation of white South Africans who grew up in a society where sexism and racism were fully entrenched and accepted. Obviously he should resign as soon as possible; the world has moved on and should not make allowances for these antiquated views.
8
What is particularly idiotic about Djokovic's statement is that the women's prize money isn't taking a nickel from his gold-plated wallet. There are plenty of intellectual arguments to make against his statement, but I think someone with a net worth of over two hundred million dollars kvetching about a couple of million dollars is churlish and should be beneath the dignity of a great champion looked up to by boy and girls.
As the song goes: Children will listen.
As the song goes: Children will listen.
6
That guy should already have been fired.
6
Easy solution - have men and women compete against each other in one fixed event.
1
Moore's comments are wrong because they are sexist, not just because women are good at tennis. Women don't need to "earn" the right not to be treated with disdain. Sexism is always wrong.
5
Ray Moore is the Donald Trump of tennis...in a GOOD way. He is the only one to speak the truth and it cost him his job. Finally, the politically correct is out of the closet. For years, we have had to watch as equal pay for far less work was given to women. Understood, but not spoken out loud...because that would be ungallant...was the fact that their bodies were really made for having children, not hitting tennis balls. Women played from the baseline and grunted LOUDLY and their games were boring. Chris Evert was very boring to watch. The only ones who were not were, ironically, Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova because they played classic tennis like the men. Only they had an argument for being paid equally for non-grand slam events. They should only have been paid two-thirds of what men received for Grand Slam events because they didn't have to work as hard. Nor...and this was especially true...did they bring in the money like men did. Ray Moore is right and he was a great tennis player to watch as well.
4
There IS no good way to be Donald Trump. You just proved that point! Can you say, "Misogynist?" Please, stay hunkered down in your medieval castle and hope the light of day never sears your eyes; your brain clearly already was "fried."
5
I don't want to pick a fight but my mouth dropped as I read your statement: "The fact that their bodies were really made for having children, not hitting tennis balls", so in your mind the ONLY thing women are good for is bearing children. Never mind that at the very least the Top 10 in women's tennis (and really a good number in the top 100) are excellent tennis players. You are entitled to your opinion but I highly suggest you check the calendar every now and then to acknowledge it is 2016 not 1816.
4
You must think that women's brains are also made for having/raising children and not for oh say... reading, independent thought, math, scientific inquiry, politics, creative genius, etc. I guess we should all just go back to the kitchen, huh?
How is this comment a NYT Pick? Embarrassing.
How is this comment a NYT Pick? Embarrassing.
8
I saw a train station advertisement where the male tennis players' names were in GIANT LETTERS and the women's names were beneath & much smaller. The disparity was so obvious it was almost comical.
3
Referring to Anna Kournakova I never watched tennis until she stepped on to the courts.
She played in Auckland NZ many years ago and drew a record crowd.
After her game most of the spectators left too.
Players such as Anna, and I still have her calendar next to me and her games taped, brought a new life to tennis because of their lithe beauty and fashion statements.
Then of course there was the entry of Sharapova.
A new beauty and screaming talent.!!
Women should get paid as much as men for tennis because they train as hard and play as hard.
...and they look better..!!
STAN CHUN
Wellington
New Zealand
22 March, 2016.
She played in Auckland NZ many years ago and drew a record crowd.
After her game most of the spectators left too.
Players such as Anna, and I still have her calendar next to me and her games taped, brought a new life to tennis because of their lithe beauty and fashion statements.
Then of course there was the entry of Sharapova.
A new beauty and screaming talent.!!
Women should get paid as much as men for tennis because they train as hard and play as hard.
...and they look better..!!
STAN CHUN
Wellington
New Zealand
22 March, 2016.
Please don't put Kournikova in the same boat as Sharapova. Kournikova was really nice to look at but Sharapova, with her drugged out screaming, is horrible. Men are much more interesting to watch-as far as Tennis is concerned-than women
Who is poisoning Indian Wells?
1
Novak--really? Shocking to think you are still in the dinosaur era when it comes to equal pay. And do we really need a lesson from you on women's anatomy? Very disappointed in your mentality and no longer a fan.
8
His tennis is boring but your comment is really stupid. The dinosaur age, as you put it, is the non-politically correct age. Women should never get paid as much as men for tennis. Djokovic mentions anatomy because women's bodies are made for producing and bearing children not for playing physically hard games like tennis. Plus most of the women players are screamers and their games are boring. Wake up to this reality you politically correct female.
Your "facts" are just your opinions. Join the modern age sometime.
I've been watching tennis since I first saw Bjorn Borg play a match. I was immediately hooked on the sport. I even took tennis lessons. Back then there was Borg, McEnroe, Connors etal and Evert, Navratilova, etal and there was no such thing as the Tennis Channel or ESPN. These days I watch less women's tennis because I cannot stand the screaming and grunting from players like Sharapova. It's unwatchable. That's why these days I prefer to watch the men more....Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Wawrinka, Murray...and the rest. Glad to hear this man stepped down. He's out of touch with reality.
3
Very poor choice of words. Shame on him. Get up tp speed these women are very good athletes and only need to thank the people who helped them get there.
1
Ellison finally fired Fair, but allowed him to save face by resigning. Too lenient, but same result. Good riddance.
1
Yes he is an old fool but it still boggles my mind that these guys think they can demean women and feel immune to any rebuke. I dare say many other men in tennis and other fields feel the same way but curb their tongues in public. Very sad and BTW I don't like or watch tennis. What I do know is the the women shine so much brighter than the men. This is probably why he felt the need to bring down these "uppity" ladies. Score one for women's tennis!
7
I grew up in South Florida watching Chris and Jeanne Evert, the Serena and Venus of their day. They were the rock stars. I guess my friends and I occasionally watched men's tennis, but it really wasn't the main attraction -- The Times' picture of Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova perfectly captures that tennis-obsessed era.
7
Why is no one also commenting on Novak's remarks, every bit as ignorant - that women have to deal with their hormones! like aren't we brave little troopers with our obvious disadvantage of womanhood. Send all the ATF to some sort of training - and I include the male players. You would think they are younger and from a generation that might be more aware that we are equals, but clearly not. I watched only the women's match, I don't find Novak interesting to watch - people watch for different reasons. And this is true for other sports as well, is he saying only male swimmers are of note, or skiers, where the most amazing slalom star now is a woman as well.
19
The main reason no female player has ever beat a top male player, nor ever will, is indeed due to hormones: we have more testosterone, you have more estrogen. This is junior high biology.
1
While Mr. Araton's point about the challenges of balancing motherhood and a competitive career is well-taken, he does seem to have forgotten that Kim Clijsters won the US Open after having given birth to her first child--an achievement of which much was made at the time.
5
The Williams sisters inspired me, in my 40s, to pick up a racquet. I have been playing for a year and love it. If in fact someone had suggested that I thank Federer and Nadal (or any man) before beginning, I never would have picked up a racquet.
Obviously Moore should have been out of this game a long time ago. What a disgrace.
Obviously Moore should have been out of this game a long time ago. What a disgrace.
8
What seemed to be overlooked what Djokovic comment that Moore's statement was not 'politically correct' which to me means one thing. What Moore said is common understanding in the groups other than the one you offend. Like using a racial slur at an all-white country club. In our modern day, there appears to still be one group that cannot get over the idea that alpha is just a character in the Greek alphabet. Mr. Moore is one of this group. and I do not mean unemployed,
4
Why is women's tennis limited to best of three sets while men play best oof five sets? Women are now allowed to run a marathon or play full-court basketball after both were thought to strenuous. Women are certainly no longer considered the weaker sex. Why is tennis different?
1
As a long time tennis fan I tend to watch women's tennis more because there is a lot more finesse to play than the slug fest that men's tennis has become. True I watch the men (in between doing other things because it takes too long to reach a conclusion) but it has become in a lot of instances two cave men with rackets beating the each other over the head until someone submits (I'll accept that this may be what men enjoy watching... maybe).
The fact is that the lower level events lead up to the various surface (hard-court, clay etc.) Grand Slam events (4 times a year) and men play best of 3 sets in ALL those other events. And, as another commenter indicated even in the Grand Slams best of 3 is the result all too often. Why should EITHER male or female players have to go to best of 5 in the heat when the vast majority of play is best of 3 sets? Jimmy Connors retired a long time ago. Get a grip!!
The fact is that the lower level events lead up to the various surface (hard-court, clay etc.) Grand Slam events (4 times a year) and men play best of 3 sets in ALL those other events. And, as another commenter indicated even in the Grand Slams best of 3 is the result all too often. Why should EITHER male or female players have to go to best of 5 in the heat when the vast majority of play is best of 3 sets? Jimmy Connors retired a long time ago. Get a grip!!
2
It's not that they can't do it--no one would watch. It would be like watching paint dry.
Pot calling the kettle black. Using sexist defamatory language to describe male tennis players is not an appropriate way to argue against sexism in tennis.
I personally enjoy women's tennis more, less power/more brain/more technical.
Plus the over greedy Serbian has made, men's tennis, with the demise of Federer and Nadal, quite boring.
Speaking of women's sport, how about the USA team? Puts to shame the men's.
Saluti
Plus the over greedy Serbian has made, men's tennis, with the demise of Federer and Nadal, quite boring.
Speaking of women's sport, how about the USA team? Puts to shame the men's.
Saluti
4
Men forget a lot. Daily. Day after day, seemingly from cradle to grave. For one, that females are half the human population of the planet - the half that is nicer, smarter and more generous to a fault to the opposite gender, which has never over the last 2000+ years deserved any benefit of the doubt over appalling XY behaviors that never improve.
8
One must assume that people are really not watching men's tennis. Novak beat Milos 6-2 6-0 in the final at Indian Wells. There is no endurance bar set on the men's tour, which is based on best of three sets, just like the women's. The five-set match is may seem to happening all the time for the men, but in reality it's not.
3
Strange, nobody talks about the fact that WNBA players don't even make 10% of men. Or the fact that top female models make multiples of what male models make. There is a economic reality behind these numbers that is hard to deny.
Moore has a point, crudely stated nonetheless, but in reality all of the tennis tour, including men's, has been riding on the coat-tails or Roger and Rafa especially in the US. Also, Serena is clearly responsible for a lot of the interest in tennis in US for the last few years, both men's and women's. I don't see anything wrong with what Djokovic is saying, to me all he is saying is that if women's tour were putting more people in the seats they should be paid more.
And I can see that happening. Only 3 male tennis players made more money than Sharapova and Serena in 2015. Globally the interest is skewed toward men, so this isn't the worst outcome. WTA Tour has the stars, has the personalities, if promoted right, they could easily out pay men.
Moore has a point, crudely stated nonetheless, but in reality all of the tennis tour, including men's, has been riding on the coat-tails or Roger and Rafa especially in the US. Also, Serena is clearly responsible for a lot of the interest in tennis in US for the last few years, both men's and women's. I don't see anything wrong with what Djokovic is saying, to me all he is saying is that if women's tour were putting more people in the seats they should be paid more.
And I can see that happening. Only 3 male tennis players made more money than Sharapova and Serena in 2015. Globally the interest is skewed toward men, so this isn't the worst outcome. WTA Tour has the stars, has the personalities, if promoted right, they could easily out pay men.
Very few watch the WNBA. The WNBA money will exceed men's salaries when the commercial sales supporting them also overwhelm the NBA. Its all about the benjimins!
1
People don't watch the WNBA because, well, it's boring. Why aren't under-six-foot basketball leagues more popular than the NBA? Because they are boring and inferior. Get it?
I'm a tennis player, fan, and frequently travel to tournaments. I prefer to watch the men but that in no way means I think women should be paid less (I'm 57 I remember how hard Billie Jean King worked to get a tour together).
One reason I prefer not to watch the women is the screeching and shrieking. Although to be fair I'm not keen on grunting men either.
Djokovic has shown why people have been slow to embrace him. His recent statements have certainly not helped the cause. I find it very sad when someone under 30 has these outdated notions that women's hormones prevent them from doing what men can.
One reason I prefer not to watch the women is the screeching and shrieking. Although to be fair I'm not keen on grunting men either.
Djokovic has shown why people have been slow to embrace him. His recent statements have certainly not helped the cause. I find it very sad when someone under 30 has these outdated notions that women's hormones prevent them from doing what men can.
3
Neither he stated that women should be paid less or women can not do what men can. He simply stated it should be based on economics and he used the "hormones" example to illustrate that most of the women players can not have as long careers as Roger simply because they want to have children.
I believe that WTA has more diverse players and more rising stars in the future and if they promote them correctly, they can attract bigger audiences, which means bigger pay out according to Djokovic's model.
I believe that WTA has more diverse players and more rising stars in the future and if they promote them correctly, they can attract bigger audiences, which means bigger pay out according to Djokovic's model.
1
Do male models earn as much as female models although both do essentially the same thing, i.e., model? Is that equitable? In a competitive market economy one's income depends on the revenue one generates. If women's sports generates less revenue, female athletes will earn less. Nothing discriminatory about that. Consumers choices are the cause of revenue disparities. Those who wish to change things should view more women's sports.
2
What Mr. Moore stated has some truth to it, however not stated as eloquently as it could be. The women's game has been all over the place in the last decade without a rivalry to speak. Partly because of Serena's spectacular dominant play.
I'm wondering how she would have fared in 5 set Grand Slam matches against fitter opponents. ( it's a fair question where fitness is a major element in the men's game ) Women make just as much money as the men and put in less work and deliver a poorer product! To put it in a better perspective as great as Serena is she should couldn't beat the 500th or 700th ranked man in the world in a best of 3 set match or the 1000th rank man in best of 5!
I'm wondering how she would have fared in 5 set Grand Slam matches against fitter opponents. ( it's a fair question where fitness is a major element in the men's game ) Women make just as much money as the men and put in less work and deliver a poorer product! To put it in a better perspective as great as Serena is she should couldn't beat the 500th or 700th ranked man in the world in a best of 3 set match or the 1000th rank man in best of 5!
Interesting.... I suppose you should address that question to the tennis officials making the rules, shouldn't you? I'd imagine if the women were required to play five sets, they would prepare for five. And if the men weren't required to be prepared to play five sets, they wouldn't Your logic is flawed.
2
As an individual this Moore fellow is unimportant, but since he seems to be representative of a cultural change in America he is important. Increasingly, people are giving vent to long suppressed hostilities, whether they are interracial, religious, political, or, as here, sexual. This new stupidity is aided and abetted by the loudmouths in the political arena. Uncouth behavior is on the rise, especially among Moore's age group. As to the sport of Tennis, it has only one value which places it above baseball, football, hockey and soccer, and that is that adults can play the game for their entire lives. Our national obsession with watching, rather than doing, athletics has helped make so many people diabetic, heart afflicted, and joint and back afflicted. Watching sports is a waste of time; put on your athletic shoes and go out and play! As to men making nasty remarks about women, are any of you really surprised?
6
As great a player as he is, Djokovic betrays his neanderthal eastern European roots with comments such as these about female players. Nevertheless, it's one thing to hold sexist views in private--abhorrent as they may be to more enlightened souls--which millions of ordinary, often dim-witted men still do despite the tsunami of political correctness washing over western society, especially in the U.S.; but quite another for a guy serving as a tournament director in pro tennis to make such lame, obviously retrogressive comments about female players. "Apology" doesn't cut it, especially the standard PR-centric drivel that passes for apology in the public sphere.
10
You are the one who should apologize for calling Eastern Europeans Neanderthals.
Sorry....did I hit a nerve?
1
Men's tennis has always and continues to be much more exciting to watch than women's tennis. Men's games are more diverse and exciting to watch. With the exception of finals (perhaps) see how many more fans fill the stadium for men's matches versus women's matches. I bet most people cant even tell you the top four women seeds. Women do not generate as much fan participation and they play less sets in major tournaments. The issue of equal pay for women in tennis is made easier because they play in the same tournaments as men. Otherwise, not unlike basketball, boxing and soccer, equal pay would never have been an issue. Let's be honest, there is no comparison in the athleticism of male and female tennis players, women do not garner as much interest as male players and very often the male players play longer sets with much more grueling matches. They should be paid more.
There is no such thing as men's sports. There are sports, almost all of which are dominated completely by men, because they are stronger, faster, and naturally more aggressive. "Women's sports" are simply an artificial subcategory of sports so that women can compete. It is only a negative fact that the women who are most like men dominate womens' sports. The strongest, fastest, most aggressive. Most men naturally want to compete, most women do not. In most sports, the number of men competing is many, many time the number of women.
If progressives insist on equality, as you read so much of here, then there should be no such thing as "women's sports", and women can simply compete on an equal basis - and we will not see them at all.
Men's U21 (under 21) soccer teams are certainly better than the best women's soccer teams, but they make no money at all, compared to the women. The best Norwegian women's teams, certainly among the best in the world, compete against 14-year-old boys, in order to improve. Why don't the U21's howl about "inequality", being far better?
So yes, for goodness sakes, let us have women's sports and enjoy finding out who is the best among the women, and carry great pride in seeing our national womens' team represent our countries. We all want "our women" to be the best.
But somehow insisting the obvious falsehood that male and female athletes are "equal" only damages everyone's enjoyment.
You want "equality"? Then drop "women's" sports!
If progressives insist on equality, as you read so much of here, then there should be no such thing as "women's sports", and women can simply compete on an equal basis - and we will not see them at all.
Men's U21 (under 21) soccer teams are certainly better than the best women's soccer teams, but they make no money at all, compared to the women. The best Norwegian women's teams, certainly among the best in the world, compete against 14-year-old boys, in order to improve. Why don't the U21's howl about "inequality", being far better?
So yes, for goodness sakes, let us have women's sports and enjoy finding out who is the best among the women, and carry great pride in seeing our national womens' team represent our countries. We all want "our women" to be the best.
But somehow insisting the obvious falsehood that male and female athletes are "equal" only damages everyone's enjoyment.
You want "equality"? Then drop "women's" sports!
11
You completely overlook the benefits from acknowledging that strength alone is NOT the end-all, be-all in any sport. If you look at the men, clearly they also adapt different methods of play to help level that field against those who are "more alpha" in aggression and strength. US pro basketball is a perfect example. Not all the male players are the same height and weight yet some of the smallest still prevail. Why is that? Take that a step further and consider that some players prefer or need a more-strategic approach: more chess-like, intelligent, anticipatory and well-thought-out. Consider taking a page from the book for yourself.
2
Finally, someone speaks the truth.
1
Sorry, but not even the tallest, strongest woman in the WNBA could sit the bench on a college men's team. Why does this fact get you so steamed up?
1
All white men who say anything controversial should lose their jobs.
And people wonder why Donald Trump is doing well ...
And people wonder why Donald Trump is doing well ...
2
Awww... poor baby. Playing victim again? Blatant sexism MUST be confronted, just as blatant racism must. Deal with it!
4
He was right: Women's Tennis is a sinking ship. It only survives in the backwater of men's tennis which is really comptetitive and brings the viewers and the money. Having the same prize money for women as for men is ridiculous. Women only play to 3 sets and don't draw the crowds that men do. How about we pay the women's NBA's players the same as the NBA's players. Unless the Women NBA were cross-financed from the NBA, the Women NBA would fold pretty quickly.
The problem here is: The guy is absolutely right. Yet, he has to leave his post because the USA is a country where free speech doesn't exist. It is only "political correctness" that rules. and who makes those rules? Feminazis in this case and some minority lovers in others. Are we really surprised that this country is taken over by Donald Trump? We have to free ourselves from these interest groups that just peddle unfair goodies for a group of people and try to shut-down free speech. Donald Trump is the only politician who sees this problem and will address it.
The problem here is: The guy is absolutely right. Yet, he has to leave his post because the USA is a country where free speech doesn't exist. It is only "political correctness" that rules. and who makes those rules? Feminazis in this case and some minority lovers in others. Are we really surprised that this country is taken over by Donald Trump? We have to free ourselves from these interest groups that just peddle unfair goodies for a group of people and try to shut-down free speech. Donald Trump is the only politician who sees this problem and will address it.
1
Foolish sexist comments, but as to Djokovik's, its more of a professional male athlete mentality. What men's professional sports sells, whether its MLB, NFL, NBA is your watching the best athletes in the world competing .That's not the case with female professional sports, they sell top female athletes competing, but not the worlds best. Connors, McEnroe have made similar comments over the years as to the levels of competition.
Aside from his unfortunate comments, Djokovic is just not likeable. He has zero charisma and his mannerisms on the court are off-putting. He's been making an effort but... He cannot carry tennis the way Roger & Raphael have done as it does take more than talent. He needs a Roger-type to win a few slams to keep it interesting. If he becomes the only star as Roger & Raphael decline then it will be the women that carry the sport.
And don't kid yourself, being good looking helps sell tickets to fair-weather fans on both the women's and men's side.
And don't kid yourself, being good looking helps sell tickets to fair-weather fans on both the women's and men's side.
2
I have been watching Tennis from the time Sampras won Wimbledon in 1993. I feel both Men's and Women's tennis benefit from playing together like in the Grand Slams and events like Indian Wells and Miami. I always wondered why there aren't more events like Indian Wells when it is clear that these tournaments garner more ratings than stand alone ATP or WTA events. Then I see people like Moore comment and see why the WTA wants to go it alone. I find the women's game as enthralling as the men and always thought tennis could be a great example for the world at-large for mutual cooperation between men and women. It looks like even Tennis has some way to go.
14
Raymond Moore makes Jimmy the Greek look like an M.I.T. scholar
1
These are politically correct times! Ray Moore, should be old enough to know that! Then again, being older, might have helped create this problem for himself! And whether being objectively right, can nonetheless cost someone their job! (But I bet you this, the gals still expect the guys to pick up the tab when they go out after their matches, and that counts, even if the gals have, or make more money.)
1
"Gals?" Old-time attitudes. Modern men still very often INSIST on paying, regardless of how many times she offers or how much money she makes. People who use that lame, dated excuse to belittle women only make themselves look archaic. You've done quite a good job of it.
2
Thank you! But, the truth is still the truth! Sanctimonious gals ( excuse me, ladies!) or not...
1
Lost in the SJW's rush to justice to have his head, Raymond Moore actually had a grain of truth in what he said - unfortunately it was buried in facepalm-worthy rhetoric.
Have the ATP not show up for the BNP Paribas Open next year and watch the tumbleweeds roll through Indian Wells. Los Angeles held women's tournaments for many years - in Redondo Beach and more recently in Carson at the Home Depot Center. It went away after 2009 due to lack of attendance.
In 2007 I watched Ana Ivanovic and Jelena Jankovic - two “physically attractive and competitively attractive” players if there ever were any - play a semi-final in Carson on a Saturday. To a half-empty stadium. It's been that way since the mid-2000's in this country, at least. One can have myopia and only watch Serena's matches or the Slams and think everything's fine and dandy in WTA-ville, but it's not.
Pieces have been posted about this before - "2014 Indian Wells: Why the WTA Should Worry About All the Empty Seats" (Bleacher Report, 2014), "WTA Championships Playing In Front Of Mostly Empty Seats" (Sports Business Daily, 2002) et al. Just because Moore is a sad old misogynist doesn't mean all his points are completely invalid. As a tournament director he is well aware that he needs a draw to get people to come to his event - whether it's competitive, attractive - or both.
Where are all the women pros decrying the fact that Sharapova got millions in endorsements while the equally-talented Davenport got none?
Have the ATP not show up for the BNP Paribas Open next year and watch the tumbleweeds roll through Indian Wells. Los Angeles held women's tournaments for many years - in Redondo Beach and more recently in Carson at the Home Depot Center. It went away after 2009 due to lack of attendance.
In 2007 I watched Ana Ivanovic and Jelena Jankovic - two “physically attractive and competitively attractive” players if there ever were any - play a semi-final in Carson on a Saturday. To a half-empty stadium. It's been that way since the mid-2000's in this country, at least. One can have myopia and only watch Serena's matches or the Slams and think everything's fine and dandy in WTA-ville, but it's not.
Pieces have been posted about this before - "2014 Indian Wells: Why the WTA Should Worry About All the Empty Seats" (Bleacher Report, 2014), "WTA Championships Playing In Front Of Mostly Empty Seats" (Sports Business Daily, 2002) et al. Just because Moore is a sad old misogynist doesn't mean all his points are completely invalid. As a tournament director he is well aware that he needs a draw to get people to come to his event - whether it's competitive, attractive - or both.
Where are all the women pros decrying the fact that Sharapova got millions in endorsements while the equally-talented Davenport got none?
1
Really sorry I read this article. I told myself Djokovic's superior attitude was my imagination. However, it seems he's entitled to be superior since he's unburdened by hormones, etc. I wonder then, what's the source of wife-beating and homicidal tirades, most wars, etc. Why the peculiar peak in criminal activity among young men that wanes in their 50's and 60's?
If women's behavior is so influenced by hormones, according to noted biologist and physician Novak Djokovic, at least it's not influenced to the point of ridiculous violence, particularly against women.
Characterize these examples as extremes, but when people with unscientific ideas dating back hundreds of year are trotted out as truths, the comparisons are deserved. An objective study of sex differences would show some notable performance advantages women have over men, even in extreme examples.
On the other hand, perhaps our expectations for intelligence of these two was just too high.
If women's behavior is so influenced by hormones, according to noted biologist and physician Novak Djokovic, at least it's not influenced to the point of ridiculous violence, particularly against women.
Characterize these examples as extremes, but when people with unscientific ideas dating back hundreds of year are trotted out as truths, the comparisons are deserved. An objective study of sex differences would show some notable performance advantages women have over men, even in extreme examples.
On the other hand, perhaps our expectations for intelligence of these two was just too high.
9
These days, it's the men who ought to "go down on their knees every night" and "thank God" for their female counterparts. Improvements in racket and string technology have left us with a men's game wholly bereft of finesse and all but unwatchable. Now, if we could just get the women to stop grunting every time they hit the ball, they could own the sport.
1
Moore is an old white South African who grew up in a bigoted apartheid country. No wonder he thinks as he does. Send him back to South Africa to learn some manners and let him get down on his knees and thank someone for letting him live in the U.S.
14
"Moore is an old white South African who grew up in a bigoted apartheid country."
... where he was known for his vocal opposition to Apartheid.
Your move, Sparky.
... where he was known for his vocal opposition to Apartheid.
Your move, Sparky.
When even directors of sporting events, or politicians, speak in public about what they are thinking regarding the capabilities of women, one wonders what is said behind closed doors or in bars among misogynistic man.
The imagery of women on their knees is not only offensive and crude, it conveys a persistent attitude that women are lesser beings and as such deserving of less pay,less credit, and less stature.
This stuff may be said in macho cultures like South Africa and cAustralia, but it has no place in the public sphere in America. It only perpetuates the trope that women are lesser beings and totally dependent on men for whatever they have.
Sexism is alive and well in America: in politics, sports, business, and virtually every endeavor where competence and distribution of benefits are skewed to The male gender.
The imagery of women on their knees is not only offensive and crude, it conveys a persistent attitude that women are lesser beings and as such deserving of less pay,less credit, and less stature.
This stuff may be said in macho cultures like South Africa and cAustralia, but it has no place in the public sphere in America. It only perpetuates the trope that women are lesser beings and totally dependent on men for whatever they have.
Sexism is alive and well in America: in politics, sports, business, and virtually every endeavor where competence and distribution of benefits are skewed to The male gender.
22
Perhaps Moore believe that since women's matches are a maximum of three sets, woman are only 3/5 of a man and should only be paid 60% as much. This would echo the "Southern Compromise" for slaves during the 1787 Constitutional Convention.
I have always found the women's game to be more interesting to watch because it was less dependent on serve and volley, which had turned many men's matches into serving exhibitions much like penalty kicks in soccer.
I have always found the women's game to be more interesting to watch because it was less dependent on serve and volley, which had turned many men's matches into serving exhibitions much like penalty kicks in soccer.
1
Actually, good volleying (even in men's game) is a dying art. Not many players are comfortable at volleying. Could be due to more powerful rackets and string technology.
1
"The imagery of women on their knees is not only offensive and crude"
Is there a particular reason why you - and lots of other women - have taken his comment out of context and conveniently dropped the important "and pray" at the end? (Personally I find it pretty funny that people of either gender would get down on their knees in a church/synagogue/mosque in genuflection to an invisible sky fairy, but I digress ... )
Moore also said that the men should get down on their knees and pray too, but of course that was quickly lost in the furor.
The lack of anything past Level 1 depth analysis on this topic is astounding.
Is there a particular reason why you - and lots of other women - have taken his comment out of context and conveniently dropped the important "and pray" at the end? (Personally I find it pretty funny that people of either gender would get down on their knees in a church/synagogue/mosque in genuflection to an invisible sky fairy, but I digress ... )
Moore also said that the men should get down on their knees and pray too, but of course that was quickly lost in the furor.
The lack of anything past Level 1 depth analysis on this topic is astounding.
I don't know why public figures make statements that apply in such a general way as to become absurd. Women's tennis right now is light years away from the boring balloon tennis of earlier years and it is, in a way, more exciting than men's tennis because it doesn't depend solely on sheer power. Nevertheless, I would like to see a small, symbolic difference in the prize money to recognize not the greater importance of mens tennis, but the greater physical effort required in men's tennis.
2
Frank, do you think the women tennis players are holding back on effort?
What your'e really saying is that because men's musculature is different, they ought to get more money. I can see that if men and women are stacking bricks and being paid for how many bricks they can stack. In this case, it's the force with which the ball is hit that that you want to link the pay to. Right? I can't really see how that makes sense.
What your'e really saying is that because men's musculature is different, they ought to get more money. I can see that if men and women are stacking bricks and being paid for how many bricks they can stack. In this case, it's the force with which the ball is hit that that you want to link the pay to. Right? I can't really see how that makes sense.
4
Your misogyny is showing...greater physical effort versus what? Tennis is about self-challenge. Do you truly think men exert more "effort" than women vis-a-vis their best personal capabilities? Very telling statement and very sad as well! At least try comparing apples to apples to save what face you have left.
5
Unfortunately or maybe fortunately, words are made to be interpreted, in spite of what some US Supreme Court judges think. So,you are welcome to you reading.
I had put, after "effort" what I meant by it (5 sets to 3), but I removed the parenthesis because I thought the explanation to be condescending. By the way, I looked in the mirror and, voilá, I had a full face.
I had put, after "effort" what I meant by it (5 sets to 3), but I removed the parenthesis because I thought the explanation to be condescending. By the way, I looked in the mirror and, voilá, I had a full face.
A man in Raymond Moore's position should know better than to broach this taboo subject and certainly in the stupid way he phrased it. The fact is from a tennis promotion standpoint it's the men that draw a larger proportion of the paying audience. Compare attendance at men's only competitions to women's only competitions, there is a huge difference. Promoters know that five sets of women's tennis in the early rounds would have crowds heading for the exits. The depth of the women's game is improving but still early round results are a predictable march.Tennis is entertainment. Likewise, Beyoncé gets a higher fee than her drummer – why? She pulls the crowd. In the same way, the men's prize money should be higher because they draw a higher proportion of the audience. This is the case no matter what Navratilova, Shriver, King or others may wish or say.
3
These days I prefer watching the women play. Angelie Kerber's gut-check victories over Azarenka and Serena were tennis at its best. And watching Serena play at her best is always thrilling. Sharapova too. What strength of will they have!
As for the men, I'm bored with Djokovic winning all the grand slams. Time for some new faces to brandish the winner's trophy.
As for the men, I'm bored with Djokovic winning all the grand slams. Time for some new faces to brandish the winner's trophy.
5
Well if the bar is going to be lowered to stereotype everyone depending on their groups and make crude remarks, then let's not forget that South African men are noted for their violence against women.
14
I love the women's game - in many ways prefer it to the men's game. And, Raymond Moore should be fired. But the fact is, the men's game draws crowds much better. At the US Open, for example, tickets to the men's finals sell on StubHub for approximately three times the price of tickets to the women's finals. That statistic is very upsetting, but that's capitalism.
1
Interesting reading through the comments how many along with Moore seem to have so many negative comments to make against women tennis players. Kind of eye-opening that such male chauvinism is clearly still around.
I feel that especially for Americans, Serena Williams is one to be rallied around. She is the only top ten player from the U.S. right now - man OR woman! And she's number one! Frankly, I'm surprised that's not mentioned, or appreciated, more.
I feel that especially for Americans, Serena Williams is one to be rallied around. She is the only top ten player from the U.S. right now - man OR woman! And she's number one! Frankly, I'm surprised that's not mentioned, or appreciated, more.
13
You know, just that picture of Raymond Moore putting his hand on Serena's lower back is infuriating.
They are not friends, I wouldn't want an acquaintance touching me there.
They are not friends, I wouldn't want an acquaintance touching me there.
15
Even if you disregard the attendance issue (considerable room for debate), the TV contracts (if matches were televised like golf, there would be no debate), you are left with women players advocating for equal pay...when they are doing ~60÷ of the work.
If you had a 50 hour workweek, but your cubemate worked 30 hours (and demanded the same pay), would you think that was fair? The men are putting in more sets, leading to more TV revenue, yet they are sharing it equally. I suppose we could have true gender equality and play the best players against one another, regardless of gender.
If you had a 50 hour workweek, but your cubemate worked 30 hours (and demanded the same pay), would you think that was fair? The men are putting in more sets, leading to more TV revenue, yet they are sharing it equally. I suppose we could have true gender equality and play the best players against one another, regardless of gender.
3
That would be how the King Center came to be named after a woman.
6
Moore should be fired. If he is not. there goes Indian Wells/Paribas.
5
Love watching the women play tennis. Serena's serve is a sight to behold.
Raymond Moore has been getting too much sun.....He needs a very long vacation...far, far, away.
Raymond Moore has been getting too much sun.....He needs a very long vacation...far, far, away.
9
Djokovic said it right: Equal pay for Equal work period. I don't see anything wrong with that. The last time I remember, both men and women got paid by the amount of hours worked and not by who you are and what you are. This is in many ways an unjust use of gender discrimination as an excuse to justify the means.
4
Obviously this guy should be fired. A tournament director should never say such things about his sport. I imagine that this will be arranged.
However, crudely he says it, there is a correct point underneath. There is women's soccer and women's basketball, whose athlete do not get even 10% of the men's sports. But they do not play in co-ed tournaments, where women can flat negotiate for equal everything.
I regret that other women's sports get such mammoth disrespect. They deserve better. However, in tennis, they get too much. Women's matches get less TV viewership, fewer on-court viewers and, at Grand Slam tournaments, provide less entertainment hours. Those are the currency of entertainment remuneration!
If tournaments were purely separate for tennis, as they are for other sports, women would be grossly underpaid in tennis too. I love to watch women's tennis -- I would rather they be overpaid than underpaid.
However, crudely he says it, there is a correct point underneath. There is women's soccer and women's basketball, whose athlete do not get even 10% of the men's sports. But they do not play in co-ed tournaments, where women can flat negotiate for equal everything.
I regret that other women's sports get such mammoth disrespect. They deserve better. However, in tennis, they get too much. Women's matches get less TV viewership, fewer on-court viewers and, at Grand Slam tournaments, provide less entertainment hours. Those are the currency of entertainment remuneration!
If tournaments were purely separate for tennis, as they are for other sports, women would be grossly underpaid in tennis too. I love to watch women's tennis -- I would rather they be overpaid than underpaid.
1
"Lady players"?! Whatever his private opinions, why would Mr. Moore publicly proclaim such gratuitous nonsense? (More to the point, why is such a twit directing a major tournament?) And what does it say about tennis fans that Roger Federer, who is past his prime, is still such a favorite? Perhaps because we appreciate his "feminine" qualities of grace, balance and intelligence?
4
Meliflaw:
Since when are grace, balance and intelligence particularly feminine qualities? Do you really think that the reason we like to watch Federer is that he is in effect a "girly" man? You sound as sexist as Moore.
Since when are grace, balance and intelligence particularly feminine qualities? Do you really think that the reason we like to watch Federer is that he is in effect a "girly" man? You sound as sexist as Moore.
Inexcusable comments from Moore. Djokovic is certainly no "gentleman" either given such tone deaf remarks. Sad all around.
10
Look: tennis is not a contact sport (although, even if it were, so what?) If women have a better game--if they've EVER had a better game--let them prove it. All purses, for male and female events, should be combined (the problem of disparate purses solved right there), and there should be no segregation of the genders. Let the best man or woman win. Until then, all this is politically correct bloviation and fulmination.
The only problem for women is that men would win a much larger portion of the combined purses and matches. If someone thinks this rank sexism, then get behind the movement to eliminate gender segregation. Put up or shut up.
The only problem for women is that men would win a much larger portion of the combined purses and matches. If someone thinks this rank sexism, then get behind the movement to eliminate gender segregation. Put up or shut up.
5
Who even cares about American men's tennis? Everyone I know only watches women's tennis. This neanderthal should be fired for his sexist remarks!
12
Apologize? He was right.
4
The strange thing is that the article itself seems to prove he was right. Instead of attempting to establish that the women's game is currently on par with the men, it shows a photo of Chris and Martina from decades ago, as if to admit that the women are below par now, but defending on the grounds that men once were too. But the man wasn't talking about the past, only about the present. Can a reasoned argument be made that the women's game is as compelling as the men's right now? If so it certainly wasn't in this article. And meanwhile, demanding equal pay the women do not demand to play matches of equal length, meaning the men can often deliver much more bang for the buck than the women.
I am an avid tennis fan, and I was shocked by Mr. Moore's crude comments. Really? He is in charge of one of the finest combined men's and women's tournaments on the tour, yet he feels this way? He cannot stay in his position with that kind of appalling lack of judgment, apology notwithstanding. Statements have consequences.
10
Whomever has the power to do it, give this Neandertal the hook, and do it NOW. There is no room in such a popular and gender neutral sport as tennis for his type of thinking.
16
Time for Moore to move on! Nothing more constructive to give--unable or unwilling. Move on!
6
Mr Moore slept for 50 years and just woke up.
11
I'm surprised enlightened people don't find our current system of making women play separately from the men terribly condescending toward female athletes. The gender binary is so last century. Why don't we simply discontinue this arbitrary separation of men and women into separate divisions and have all the players play each other regardless of sex. That way, women will earn equal pay, instead of having to lobby for it.
3
Men have to win 3 of 5 sets, women only have to win 2 of 3 sets
Men's matches bring in higher Nielsen ratings
Mens's matches are better attended
So why the outrage over what he said?
Men's matches bring in higher Nielsen ratings
Mens's matches are better attended
So why the outrage over what he said?
8
At Indian Wells the men play best of 3 sets, its only in the slams that they play best of 5.
1
I watch a lot of tennis but didn't realize that men and women were in different federations!?
I don't understand this guy's point - why is he creating an "us against them" issue?
This whole thing is just weird. Why not support everyone playing their best?
I don't understand this guy's point - why is he creating an "us against them" issue?
This whole thing is just weird. Why not support everyone playing their best?
3
Women and Men are not in the same federation? No kidding! If women want the same prize money as men let them play in the same group. Then they can show if they deserve it.
Women - athletes or otherwise - need never justify themselves to such ignorant men.
10
Women are always going to have to justify their performance, whether athletic or on the job. Exactly the same way men do, and have been doing for centuries. There's not even the slightest hint of ignorance in this man.
Embracing a huffy air of defiance--assuming, like a princess, that one need brook no criticism-- is no substitute for performance. Get over it.
Embracing a huffy air of defiance--assuming, like a princess, that one need brook no criticism-- is no substitute for performance. Get over it.
2
"There's not even the slightest hint of ignorance in this man." You have protested this too much here, it seems. When you deem remarks like "women should get down on their knees and thank men..." as smart and correct, I have to say I feel sorry for the females you may work with or call your family members. It must be some kind of old resentment from a slight you received somewhere at the hand of a woman. "Get over it."
2
Women never justify thzemselves? That is the same thing as saying: they don't take responsibility for their actions...which finally means: you can't let them run around by themselves. They cannot be held responisible.
I absolutely love tennis and I cannot get enough of it. However reading Mr. Moore comments was very upsetting. No questions, he should be fired. The sport does not need a mentality that degrades women. Both, men and women have different strength and weaknesses and should not be directly compared to one another.
I admire and love Djokovic game but not today. If he continues to have those ideas and comments I will follow a different player.
I admire and love Djokovic game but not today. If he continues to have those ideas and comments I will follow a different player.
13
If more women were in positions of authority in the administration of tennis Moore would be fired for his distorted views. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.
3
I think the reason most of the violence in the world is perpetrated by men is caused by "hormones and stuff."
26
Hey, I came out of my kitchen to watch the women's tennis!
6
Moore needs to be fired immediately. Bigoted, backward, condescending and miserable to hear in the 21st Century. Any denigration of an entire category of players for any reason should mean the end of a career. If he'd said this about black players, he'd be gone already.
Serena Williams again and again proves herself the classiest, fiercest athlete in the world.
Serena Williams again and again proves herself the classiest, fiercest athlete in the world.
15
Why should Raymond Moore apologize? He is no gentlemen and meant and believed in every word that he said. He is no legendary professional winning tennis player. He should resign or be fired for his misogyny and bigotry. Who needs another sports parasite scavenger?
12
In the late 90s and early aughts, women's tennis was the only reason I stayed interested in the sport. The men's game had become boring and predictable, with many players concentrating on hitting the fastest serve and seemingly nothing else, leading to scintillating 2- 3-shot rallies. Snooze. The ebb and flow of the game is such now that both sides are a joy to watch, but for me (and I suspect many others), women were the ones with the coattails then, dragging the men along.
10
A gentleman's apology? The Oxford English Dictionary's first context for the word "gentleman" is as follows: "A chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man"---even having one of these virtues might make one a gentleman more or less--but with Raymond Moore, he is definitely far less. Great job Serena :)
10
Who are we kidding. We watch sports for violence. It is not a coincidence that American Football is the most popular sport in the US. We would not watch NASCAR if there was no possibility of a crash. WBA will never match attendance of the NBA until the women play above the rim. Even golf. Why do you think John Daly was so popular? His power was awesome. Remember Tracey Austin and Andrea Jaeger. Moon balls for 1 hour. The matches were boring. The came Serena and Venus and gave women's tennis violence. They pushed women tennis to are levels. Attendance was never higher. Then there is the equal pay for equal work issue. It's time the women play 3 of 5 sets. Fans are ready. Women are fit. No apologies necessary.
Moore has positioned himself to run for President.
10
This man has no business being the head of anything. The Inquisition maybe, but no organization in in 2016
what a disgrace
what a disgrace
4
He needs to be fired. Period. No excuses.
8
Putting aside Moore's dumb remark, if one believes in equal pay for equal work, shouldn't the men play matches of the best two out of three sets, as do the women, or the women play three out of five, like the men? Certainly contemporary women are not delicate flowers, and have the stamina and fitness to go the longer match. The women's game is frequently more entertaining, anyway.
Daniel Allan
Daniel Allan
3
#DumpMoore. and do it fast!!
4
The old Feminist Tactic: Mobbing.
1
A person of such troglodyte values has no place at the head of an institution that promotes such an egalitarian sport.
8
I've been watching tennis for about 50 years. I definitely prefer the women over the men. The men are like robot's out there. Very boring. Not to mention that 5 sets are just too many to stay interested. The women have that right as well.
9
Same old story. The man says what he really means, gets caught and then tries to backtrack. The individuals who make sexist comments need to be held accountable and should not be in positions of power.
13
Subjective an opinion as it may be, I find women's tennis to be more entertaining than men's because the serve does not play such an overpowering role. The rallies are more interesting. The matches are shorter which I prefer. I don't watch much tennis anymore as I have found the game less watchable over the decades. First there are the changes in racket technology from wood to composite. Then there is all this screaming and grunting every time a ball is hit, even a simple forehand volley. Give me a break!
2
It's an amazing remark coming from a non-athlete who only has a job because of the efforts of others.
10
If he's not fired, then Indian Wells supports his position and deserves to share the disfavor; a boycott of Indian Wells by women players would be a good thing, raising consciousness in the sport and beyond.
8
To be true to myself I feel like some of the comments Djokovic made about how man should earn more because they bring a lot more people to the events is a valid point. Comparing tennis to soccer for example, men's soccer brings in a ton more fans than women's and its obvious men get paid more. Same with women's basketball. For a sports team, the business, men bring in the most revenue, so the male athletes get paid the most, it makes sense.
I wish all things could be equal, but you really need to look at the facts. If you have a male talent in any sport that brings in $1m every month in revenue, and you also have a woman talent in the same sport and team and they bring in $200k how can you pay both of them the same salary...?
I wish all things could be equal, but you really need to look at the facts. If you have a male talent in any sport that brings in $1m every month in revenue, and you also have a woman talent in the same sport and team and they bring in $200k how can you pay both of them the same salary...?
21
Take the profit motive to full logic. No one watches a player just starting out who brings in no audience and therefore earns less or no money. They stop playing because they cannot earn enough to survive relative to players that bring in large crowds. Taking the logic as presented, sports would die out quickly. Maybe not a bad idea if money is the central motive of owners and players, no matter the sport.
3
There are only 3 recommends here, yet Brandon has made a legitimate point at least in regard to the generation of revenue. And. That is one of the most serious problems with sport today---money. Most athletes, Djokovic included, start playing sports for fun and the thrill of competition. Then, they evolve to entertainers. It's not so important how well they play but how many people pay to watch them and how entertaining their matches are. Playing well matters to some extent, but in Djokovic's mind, it's only the money that is important. It takes 4 hours to watch a football game today and a little over 3 hours to watch a basketball game. It's awful. Why? Money from television. So, Brandon is right that men typically draw more fans, therefore, money than women. So what? It's wonderful that they can share it and it's wonderful that the women can be as well rewarded for their hard work and achievements as well. It's clearly not always the case that it's the men who are more successful Look at US Women's Soccer team and compare their success to the men. I think the MLS ought to share more with the women and so should the NBA. Ho,ho.
3
Not following your logic there Marsha. Of course beginning players should earn less money than the stars. That's the way the system works. The issue is not that money is the central motive of owners and players. It is that, notwithstanding the protestations of letter writers in this forum, the men's game is objectively more popular than the women's game. I'm sorry, but facts are stubborn things.
1
Moore has put this argument in an insulting manner, and it draws away from the underlying point.
Mens and Womens tennis is run by separate organisations, with separate tours - the ATP (mens) and the WTA (womens).
The Mens tour, through tournaments, TV, sponsorship and so on generates significantly more revenue than the womens. Even not including tournament revenue, the ATP generated 54% more revenue than the WTA.
The logical conclusion is that the product being generated by the mens tour (games between them which people pay to watch, or to advertise during) have a higher commercial value than the product of the WTA.
Given that, it`s not unreasonable to point out that for slams/joint tournaments, that the men are providing more commercial value (and certainly more product during which advertising will occur due to match length), and so would have a case for being paid accordingly.
I`d not personally advocate it, but Djokovic is right to point out that while the WTA and women fight the case for equal money on equality grounds, the ATP and mens representatives might have a duty to the male players to fight for their case on the commercial/negotiating position grounds.
Mens and Womens tennis is run by separate organisations, with separate tours - the ATP (mens) and the WTA (womens).
The Mens tour, through tournaments, TV, sponsorship and so on generates significantly more revenue than the womens. Even not including tournament revenue, the ATP generated 54% more revenue than the WTA.
The logical conclusion is that the product being generated by the mens tour (games between them which people pay to watch, or to advertise during) have a higher commercial value than the product of the WTA.
Given that, it`s not unreasonable to point out that for slams/joint tournaments, that the men are providing more commercial value (and certainly more product during which advertising will occur due to match length), and so would have a case for being paid accordingly.
I`d not personally advocate it, but Djokovic is right to point out that while the WTA and women fight the case for equal money on equality grounds, the ATP and mens representatives might have a duty to the male players to fight for their case on the commercial/negotiating position grounds.
3
Young women, you have NOT got it made. Moore's comments could be dismissed as the point of view of an old-school person. What is more worrisome is what Djokovic said. Navratilova is right: women players and spectators, boycott the tournament!
12
A quick browse through Tennis magazine should clear things up: the dominant voices in tennis are still deeply sexist, if not outright misogynist. I don't understand why parents bringing their young offerings and their credit cards to the sport tolerate it. If they stopped, most of this nonsense would evaporate overnight.
7
The present system is skewed in favor of women, as they need at most 3 sets to win, vs 5 for men.
The views of an old white man from a bygone area; they are a dying breed.
5
I certainly hope they are a dying breed, but it amazes me what antagonism an article like this brings out among lonely men who love to complain about women online. Probably don't dare to say anything directly to the women in their life.
Honestly, do these spokespersons know they are being taped?? Men, they are so predictable.
6
I can think of more great women's tennis rivalries than men's, and I'm a man. BTW you can change that caption about Steffi Graf to "one of the greatest tennis players of the 20th century." No need to do the gender qualification thingy.
16
They do because hundreds of men would beat her.
Are they greater?
Are they greater?
Why does Moore still have a job? So many have lost their jobs for saying far less but what, it's OK to spew disgusting, sexist, chauvinistic piglike comments isn't it? Very often women become the object of abusive men who are insecure and have low self esteem.
13
Equal work for equal pay? If men play 3 out of 5 at slams, should woman play same if want same pay? Or does the Joker have a point about physical differences? What did McEnroe say? "The top woman's player in the world could not crack the men's top 100."
1
At 69 Mr. Moore is a bit of a throwback to the past. When he was the age of his young players and living in South Africa about 50 years ago, the world was a very different place and he was brought up in a very different culture. As in most progressive arenas, individuals change little even with effort while generation to generations change much much more. Thank goodness.
4
"...that pre-Federer era when the women were carrying the sport in terms of diverse playing styles, personality and, yes, a healthy dose of competitive hostility?"
And don't forget the screeching. Was it Seles who started that?
And don't forget the screeching. Was it Seles who started that?
Just the headline is insulting. I don't care who ruled whom or what their gender might be.
2
For a minute, I thought I was back in the 1970s. The women tennis players should boycott this tournament until this sexist fool is fired!!!! Isn't he from South Africa the land of extreme racial discrimination? Get rid of him. He doesn't belong here and he doesn't belong in tennis. He is a throwback to a time in history when sexism and racism was rampant -- a time that is long gone.
17
Thatr would be awesome! The women tennis players boycott a tournament where they are overpaid...Yes, I would like to see that happen! Ooops, the feminists end up being too greedy after all....
This guy is so typical of boorish men in sports. They are in every sport and he exemplifies them. You know what? They will always be there. He apologized and I am sure that was one of the many insincere things this curmudgeon says. He will not change nor will sports change. You can take that in a negative way or just accept it and continue to support women's sports. Getting equal prize money was a huge step forward and a worthy accomplishment, but changing people like this guy is impossible. BTW, where have the American male heroes gone?
15
Maybe it's me but the caption to Steffi Graff's photo should read, "one of great tennis players of the 20th century." Look at her record. Who cares whether she is male or female?
26
"Djokovic’s assertion that equal pay should again be on the table 'because the stats are showing that we have much more spectators on the men’s tennis matches.'"
The other article has this: "He added: 'Women should fight for what they think they deserve and we should fight for what we think we deserve.'"
Women are fighting to be paid *as much as* and he wants to fight to be paid *more than*.
The other article has this: "He added: 'Women should fight for what they think they deserve and we should fight for what we think we deserve.'"
Women are fighting to be paid *as much as* and he wants to fight to be paid *more than*.
11
Do you not understand how they are being part? Women are being paid they exact same thing, while they don't sell as many tickets, they play ~60% of the sets, and don't have as much appeal to the advertisers who pay them.
Are you still going on about the 3 vs. 5 sets thing, when commenter after commenter has pointed out that at Indian Wells both men and women play 3 sets?
Can you cite how many tickets women sell v. men? Can you cite how much appeal they have to the advertisers who pay them? Since you are wrong about the number of sets they play, after so many people here have explained the number of sets at Indian Wells, your entire comment is dubious.
Can you cite how many tickets women sell v. men? Can you cite how much appeal they have to the advertisers who pay them? Since you are wrong about the number of sets they play, after so many people here have explained the number of sets at Indian Wells, your entire comment is dubious.
Wow. A picture is worth a thousand words.
5
Remember when this sport had class?
Too bad Roger was not at Indian Wells; I'm sure he would have restored some to the discussion.
Men's tennis is nowhere near the draw for elite athletes as Women's. In no other sport that I know of can a woman make millions in prize money. Talented male athletes (especially Americans) will opt for the better odds of scholarships and contracts in several other sports first. Maybe men have adapted better to the physicality of the modern game, but the mental competitiveness seen between women is fascinating and inspiring to fans of all ages and genders.
As for attractiveness, all athletes are beautiful. Enough said.
As for 5-setters in Grand Slams, nowhere except maybe Wimbledon (due to conditions) should that be done anymore, much less playing out the 5th. The game is too physical and the weather often too hot.
I have coached both boys and girls high school teams for decades and this kind of talk is simply not heard by anyone serious. In fact, in terms of raw competition, the girls' season is more intense than the boys'. Ask around and you will hear of schools where the girls' team could beat the boys' team. In no other sport does that happen.
Sport doesn't always build character, but it always reveals character. Good luck with the women in your life, my friend.
Too bad Roger was not at Indian Wells; I'm sure he would have restored some to the discussion.
Men's tennis is nowhere near the draw for elite athletes as Women's. In no other sport that I know of can a woman make millions in prize money. Talented male athletes (especially Americans) will opt for the better odds of scholarships and contracts in several other sports first. Maybe men have adapted better to the physicality of the modern game, but the mental competitiveness seen between women is fascinating and inspiring to fans of all ages and genders.
As for attractiveness, all athletes are beautiful. Enough said.
As for 5-setters in Grand Slams, nowhere except maybe Wimbledon (due to conditions) should that be done anymore, much less playing out the 5th. The game is too physical and the weather often too hot.
I have coached both boys and girls high school teams for decades and this kind of talk is simply not heard by anyone serious. In fact, in terms of raw competition, the girls' season is more intense than the boys'. Ask around and you will hear of schools where the girls' team could beat the boys' team. In no other sport does that happen.
Sport doesn't always build character, but it always reveals character. Good luck with the women in your life, my friend.
12
The sport of tennis needs to celebrate its strengths and continued growth. Part of that strength is the diversity of its players. It should applaud diversity whether that be in race, sex, or skill sets. This should not be denigrated. The sport needs leaders that celebrate its top players, all its top players. The Tournament Director should resign, but he may not be "man enough" to do that. He should, therefore, be fired.
12
How about Bobby Riggs challenge match with Billy Jean King...1973 I think...he lost every set
7
How about when the Williams sisters played the 200th ranked male - and lost back to back - without him taking a break.
3
Yes, he was 55 and she - 29
Perhaps Serena needs to boycott [again] Indian Wells and every Woman tennis player should join her; this leach apparently does not comprehend that- without the players all he has are some tennis courts.
15
It's interesting that mental decline seems to come to men much sooner than to women. The same may be true of physical decline.
Raymond Moore seems to a prime example of that phenomenon...at least mentally.
Raymond Moore seems to a prime example of that phenomenon...at least mentally.
12
This is not about tennis. This is about power.
I knew that the second I read Moore's quote that 'women should go down on their knees.' Never mind to whom or for what! Three sets, five sets, more pay, less pay. Moore believes IN HIS SOUL that women should be subservient.
End of story.
I knew that the second I read Moore's quote that 'women should go down on their knees.' Never mind to whom or for what! Three sets, five sets, more pay, less pay. Moore believes IN HIS SOUL that women should be subservient.
End of story.
27
The women are exciting and unpredictable from round 1. By the round of 16, there are usually 12-15 seeded men and rarely more than 7-8 seeded women. The quarters usually have the four "good" (for about 5 years now) and the semis usually have at least 3 of the 4 top men's seeds whereas it seems rare to have more than 2 of the top 4 women's seeds in the semis (even if Serena is most likely to win). So if you want to be surprised you had better go to a woman's match.
5
Let me complete your thought:
Only a, very old, Man, who has become senile, Could Forget When Women Ruled Tennis!
I prefer the women's game because I can watch high quality tennis. Men's game has been mostly reduced to serves so fast it is hard to see the ball.
Raymond Moore should retire; his own words prove he is ready.
Only a, very old, Man, who has become senile, Could Forget When Women Ruled Tennis!
I prefer the women's game because I can watch high quality tennis. Men's game has been mostly reduced to serves so fast it is hard to see the ball.
Raymond Moore should retire; his own words prove he is ready.
9
I love watching tennis, but the women's doubles is rarely televised. Not even the women's doubles final was televised this year and there are no repeats on the Tennis Channel. I watch only women's tennis. the men's tennis is boring. 45 hit rallies ..... Yawn.
5
As long as Wimbledon tells the Women to play their finals on Saturday and tells the Men to play theirs on Sundays the preference is obviously for the latter. To be totally non-partial flip a coin.
9
15 years ago Indian Wells symbolized racism in tennis. Now it's sexism. I suspect they will be looking for a new director soon.
28
Tomorrow morning when I get online, I hope to read on this website that this knuckle dragging neanderthal has been fired or has resigned from his position. What a dinosaur...he needs to go.
31
In terms of phrasing, I'm less bothered by the "coattails" comment than by the "go down every night" and your knees and "thank god" for the men who played for making a woman's tennis career possible. Not only is it a complete discounting of the women's efforts (individual athletes AND the WTA), but such nasty degradation, calls to submissive thankfulness... revolting and pathetic.
33
I am not a huge Title IX guy, but if you earn it you get it.
Womens' tennis has always been earning it.
Womens' tennis has always been earning it.
8
"Only a man..." sounds like something a misandrist would say, so I was shocked to see that a man wrote those words. Yes, a woman could never forget that. Only a man.
1
I recently read an article about young women who have never experienced misogyny or gender discrimination, and I thought "how wonderful" because I experienced it in college and early in my career. It was such a hopeful moment for me. And then, this. Women who dedicated their careers to a sport, minimized and belittled by a man whose job it is to empower them, their male colleagues and the sport. So disappointing. Heartbreaking really. In 2016, we should all expect more...
14
Good thing we have this to think about -- otherwise we'd have to think about climate change.
3
Spoken like a man...
13
I had the pleasure of watching an "Exhibition Match" between Serena Williams and Caroline Wozniacki at the BNP Paribas at Madison Square Garden on World Tennis Day a couple of weeks ago -- a day that is shared globally to promote Tennis as a sport and a fun game to play. The message that anyone from any socioeconomic background can "pick up a racket." It was a Tuesday night, and as people started exiting before the final match was completed (which I was personally amazed at), Serena and Caroline played with intensity showing just how much they enjoy promoting this sport. The young people in attendance were positively mesmerized by this show; many in attendance participate in in public tennis programs throughout NYC. Comments made by Moore simply do not have a place in modern tennis, especially with the level of mentors, role models and outstanding female athletes we, as fans, have watched over the decades. I appreciate the class that Serena showed in response to Moore's comments. Tennis will move on without "Moore" sexist comments.
12
I don't know why people here keep saying men play 5 sets, when mostly they play 3 sets too just like women. They only play 5 sets on selective major tournaments such as grand slams. This has already been discussed and debated before and they agreed that women play 3 sets and men 5 sets. Williams sisters even agreed to play 5 sets if they had to, but they refused, so there's really no issue here about the number of sets they should play. This guy Moore should clearly step down from his office if he still has the decency and integrity. The tennis officials should look into this and should fire that guy which truly shows his true colors. Well, who knows maybe he was also involved in this Serena/Williams controversy in IW in 2004. It's high time to investigate that guy and give him due penalty or suspension or better yet, fire him.
16
Raymond Moore needs to attend a re-education boot camp in the Democratic Republic of Korea where the learning is for keeps. Djokovic should stick to tennis, something he does much better than declaiming on gender issues.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
www.endthemadnessnow.org
9
I have been a tennis fan from my early teens and was more than pleased when the WTA was formed and women got their place in the spotlight. This guy should have been gone a lot earlier not because he uttered those words but because such contempt HAD to have shown itself earlier in action and deeds. He simply "said" what he has probably been acting on since taking the position. If THIS is the face of Indian Wells, it's not a pretty one.
And a final note. For those complaining that women are only required to play 3 sets to the men's 5, in the events leading up to the Grand Slam events the men play 3 sets as well and no one seems to mind. On the other hand with all the training and conditioning that both sexes go through, 5 sets would not be a deal breaker for both (but you would get pushback from TV networks airing these marathon events).
And a final note. For those complaining that women are only required to play 3 sets to the men's 5, in the events leading up to the Grand Slam events the men play 3 sets as well and no one seems to mind. On the other hand with all the training and conditioning that both sexes go through, 5 sets would not be a deal breaker for both (but you would get pushback from TV networks airing these marathon events).
10
Talk about how many sets they play and how many women watch tennis versus men misses the point. And Novak was perfectly correct to point out that we do have data concerning how much MONEY each sex generates.. The reality is that men's tennis generates at least twice as much revenue, TV rights, ads and admissions, as women's tennis. Anything else is irelevant.
4
wow. What an ignorant, pompous statement coming from someone in Moore's position. I prefer the power of women's tennis. The only man I've ever found as compelling in my generation is Federer.
9
This is a perfect ploy to get more women to play tennis. This is how we first got women in America to smoke. Still, I'm more than relieved that we still use a net for playing tennis. Our education system has become like game of mixed doubles--but played without a net...
Where he would be without all the women that travel to Indian Wells to watch the well practiced and dedicated women that play tennis at the BNP Paribas? I'd like to see him out on the practice court with one of the women players on the opposite side moving him side to side, up and back in the hot desert sun until he falls to his knees. He needs to go. There is no place for his disgraceful character in tennis.
I don't want to go there again until he's gone.
I don't want to go there again until he's gone.
20
“You know, the hormones and different stuff — we don’t need to go into details,” Djokovic said.
Djokovic is not only sexist, his emotional development seems to have been arrested in adolescence. Or worse, he thinks that women have cooties.
Grow-up and man-up, Djokovic, jeez.
Djokovic is not only sexist, his emotional development seems to have been arrested in adolescence. Or worse, he thinks that women have cooties.
Grow-up and man-up, Djokovic, jeez.
37
wait until Nole faces his daughter's wrath !
3
How does a sixty nine year old guy get the job as a tournament director? He should be home watching the event from his easy chair or bed. Someone his age has no business directing or commenting on an event especially a tournament designed for female participation.
8
Come on. He's 69. Bernie is 74. We have Senators in their 80s. It's his ignorance and poor judgement that's the issue, not his age.
10
How about having a woman run the tournament? Good idea, yes? As long as she's not 69 years old.
5
Ageism is as bad as racism or sexism. No need to go to his level. It's not his age that is the problem. It's just him.
8
.
well, just compare the attendance and ticket prices at
Men's
vs.
Women's
events
and that will tell a good part of the tale
also, compare total men's endorsements to total women's endorsements
that will tell a lot too
In many sports, the comparison is 'no comparison'
soccers / basketball / etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
for the most part, men dominate sports
women's sports, overall, is a TINY fraction of the total sport market, in terms of dollars / participation / attendance / etc.
that's not a secret, or a mystery, or a conspiracy
it's just a fact
as far as tennis goes, women have a much higher than average profile than in most other sports
but that doesn't mean they have equal fan bases / etc. etc.
what are the numbers here? It's all about attendance / endorsement numbers.
What are they?
.
well, just compare the attendance and ticket prices at
Men's
vs.
Women's
events
and that will tell a good part of the tale
also, compare total men's endorsements to total women's endorsements
that will tell a lot too
In many sports, the comparison is 'no comparison'
soccers / basketball / etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
for the most part, men dominate sports
women's sports, overall, is a TINY fraction of the total sport market, in terms of dollars / participation / attendance / etc.
that's not a secret, or a mystery, or a conspiracy
it's just a fact
as far as tennis goes, women have a much higher than average profile than in most other sports
but that doesn't mean they have equal fan bases / etc. etc.
what are the numbers here? It's all about attendance / endorsement numbers.
What are they?
.
4
The Sports market for woemn athletes surges when the women's soccer team or track stars win Olympic gold. Nascar probably earns the biggest bucks and they probably think tennis is a silly effete sport unworthy of any coverage !
1
Tracy Austin deserves to be in that list of female tennis stars. I think she set records for age too.
2
I like the women's game better (basketball too). It has much more finesse and it goes a tick slower to enjoy it.
That said: This is junk news. Why not cover Bernie if you're looking for "content." Some athletes are intelligent and thoughtful, but a lot of them are extremely physically gifted dumb jocks. I'm sure this guy spends almost every waking minute obsessed with improving his game and fine tuning his body, end of story. Secretariat was a great athlete too; but I tended to ignore his opinions on current events.
That said: This is junk news. Why not cover Bernie if you're looking for "content." Some athletes are intelligent and thoughtful, but a lot of them are extremely physically gifted dumb jocks. I'm sure this guy spends almost every waking minute obsessed with improving his game and fine tuning his body, end of story. Secretariat was a great athlete too; but I tended to ignore his opinions on current events.
3
djokovik begins his training day w 2 hours of stretching, each day
then weights, then aerobics , then tennis
when you watch him play, he doesnt make those amazing gets by accident
then weights, then aerobics , then tennis
when you watch him play, he doesnt make those amazing gets by accident
Coattails aside, it's wrong that women should get paid the same when they are playing best of 3 vs. best of 5 for the men. It's not only wrong, it's sexist.
3
There's been comment after comment to the effect that at Indian Wells, both men and women play best of 3.
Coattails aside, indeed.
Coattails aside, indeed.
4
If I asked twenty-five people around here to name a tennis player, twenty-five would say Serena Williams.
21
I don't understand how this man still has a job? If he had said Venus and Serena rode in on the coattails of white female tennis players he would have been gone faster than a Serena ace serve. But he voiced what a lot of men and some women believe, that the women version of any game is lacking and not as good a product. See how the WNBA is viewed vs the NBA how the women's world cup teams are treated compared to the men's teams.
He will remain employed because a lot of people in the game believe what he said is true. That is wrong and sad.
He will remain employed because a lot of people in the game believe what he said is true. That is wrong and sad.
13
Very wrong clueless and sad. Apparently you have missed watching women competing at basketball, golf, tennis, track, down hill racing, surfing with one arm, soccer, among many other sports.
He should have already been fired. Why would any player want to go back to Indian Wells after that sloppy and pigheaded slip?
14
money
Until we denounce these sorts of people wherever we find them (politics, sports, Hollywood, our backyard) we will not be free of the ugliness bigotry creates for all of us. How this man holds power is a mystery. I take some comfort in the fact that 50% or so of us find this abhorrent, but we've got a long way to go.
12
How is it "sexist" to say that women are different from men, that women menstruate, men don't, that woman cannot become pregnant while devoting their time to a tennis career while men can conceive a child and not miss a tournament? I'm all for women tennis players to get equal prizes as men in the combined tournaments, even more if they can, but why shouldn't men get more if they can?
Geez, people are so sensitive these days!
Geez, people are so sensitive these days!
3
I'm looking at the photograph of Raymond Moore and Serena Williams that accompanies this article. For women, nothing can be clearer than the body language expressed in that shot--Moore, 69, with his hand around the waist of Williams, 34, holding onto her back as if he were her boyfriend or husband. I would bet that every woman reading this has had experience with this kind of physical contact from an older man in some position of power/authority--it's creepy, it's unwanted, and it's a nasty reminder of the way some men think that they have the automatic right to put their hands on any woman they feel like, regardless of context, and regardless of whether those women want to be touched by them or not. That's your signal right there that this guy needs to go.
82
Thank you for mentioning this! It creeped me out when I saw that picture. Why do some men think it's okay to just put their hands all over women? It's not polite, it's not 'helpful,' it's getting a free feel in the name of being 'friendly.' Ick.
When I saw the photo I envisioned Serena stepping on his foot as hard as possible.
1
Oh, come off it! Playing this as a sex card! You are obviously jealous! And a reality check, I would think, and have observed many times, that females ( except for the sanctimonious ones!) yearn for and like the attention of powerful, high status men, and at times, much older men...Putting ones arms around a younger female is not abuse, and to suggest that, diminsihes the fact that Mr. Moore's comments were indeed insensitive and probably wrong.
1
Am I the only one who finds it creepy the way Moore has his arm around
Serena while he's presenting her the trophy? Yuck.
Serena while he's presenting her the trophy? Yuck.
36
some people look for offense when none is there
some have made quite th career of it
some have made quite th career of it
1
And not looking at her face.
4
I may be slightly off subject, but having only been a casual tennis fan since the 1970's, there is something interesting about following passage, focusing on "equal pay":
"Does Moore remember that equal pay for women at the Grand Slam events — passionately championed behind the scenes by Venus Williams — grew in large part out of that pre-Federer era when the women were carrying the sport in terms of diverse playing styles, personality and, yes, a healthy dose of competitive hostility?"
If in this sport there is a call for equal pay, then why is the participation requirement not equal between the men's and women's matches?
Since the women's matches, the winner only needs to win 2 sets as compared to the requirement of winning 3 sets in men's matches, how is this equal and justify equal pay?
Technically on average men work a third more in tennis then women and at times nearly twice as much since a match can last 5 sets compared to the maximum 3 sets for women.....
Does the tennis world change this and how? Do the tennis associations raise or lower the bar, meaning will women need to play just as many sets as men or will men have to play less sets? And then depending on if any of these changes are implemented, how will this affect the game?
"Does Moore remember that equal pay for women at the Grand Slam events — passionately championed behind the scenes by Venus Williams — grew in large part out of that pre-Federer era when the women were carrying the sport in terms of diverse playing styles, personality and, yes, a healthy dose of competitive hostility?"
If in this sport there is a call for equal pay, then why is the participation requirement not equal between the men's and women's matches?
Since the women's matches, the winner only needs to win 2 sets as compared to the requirement of winning 3 sets in men's matches, how is this equal and justify equal pay?
Technically on average men work a third more in tennis then women and at times nearly twice as much since a match can last 5 sets compared to the maximum 3 sets for women.....
Does the tennis world change this and how? Do the tennis associations raise or lower the bar, meaning will women need to play just as many sets as men or will men have to play less sets? And then depending on if any of these changes are implemented, how will this affect the game?
Not surprising that the detachment from reality which is a hallmark of most comments on any issue in this leading arm of the Liberal MSM also extends to professional tennis. You can count the women players on both hands whose game is not confined to the usual lob fest which makes the women's game such a snooze fest.
1
Lob fest? When did you stop watching tennis?
11
Peanut Louie lobbed decades ago. Then Harold Solomon. No one is lobbing on either tour these days. It appears you neither play not watch tennis much.
8
As an AT&T U-Verse subscriber, I'm able to watch tennis matches on ESPN3. Usually all the men's matches through the final are broadcast on ESPN3. For some reason, the women's matches are broadcast only through the quarters; the semis and final are available only on pay channels ESPN and ESPN2. I don't believe it's because ESPN decided their viewers suddenly lose interest in the women's matches -- I think it's because they know there's more interest in the women's matches and want interested viewers to pay for the privilege of viewing them.
3
What a complete, complete lout.
13
While the focus seems to be on Mr. Moore's comments, why isn't more being said about greedy Novak Djokovic. Here's a man making millions of dollars wanting more. How much is enough, Novak?
112
Djokovic simply pointed out the reality that men generate more than half of the revenue (if you don't believe that look at the split between men's and women's tournaments) and should therefore get more than half of the prize money
2
If an adminstrator cuts health benefits he can claim he earned his company thousands while the pediatric neurosurgeon, getting paid for
complex work, is a 'cost center.' No one is starving out the top 100 ATP guys. Reducing prize money for women has nothing to do with fairness.
The top 25 men make more money off court through exhibitions & product endorsements. Grow up.
complex work, is a 'cost center.' No one is starving out the top 100 ATP guys. Reducing prize money for women has nothing to do with fairness.
The top 25 men make more money off court through exhibitions & product endorsements. Grow up.
4
He deserves every penny.
I am not a Serena fan but I respect her abilities and accomplishments, as I do those of all accomplished women athletes.
Moore's comments are reprehensible, particularly in this era. He has embarrassed himself and his sport. There is no reprieve for his "quick apology".
He needs to resign immediately and retreat to the dustbin of sports antiquity.
Moore's comments are reprehensible, particularly in this era. He has embarrassed himself and his sport. There is no reprieve for his "quick apology".
He needs to resign immediately and retreat to the dustbin of sports antiquity.
26
Cue the perpetually offended social justice warriors who just can't let someone say something that is obviously stupid without also trying to ruin that person's life. You people are boarish.
3
Frankly, it's boorish to misspell insults. (Also, boorish to insist that people not be offended by offensive behaviors.)
17
I've been playing and watching tennis for over 55 years and there has never been a time when the women's game ruled tennis. Each decade had 2 or 3 players worthy of the name and the current generation ushered in by the Williams sisters is undoubtedly the most talented. But never, then or now, has the women's game ruled tennis. That is silly nonsense.
27
I don't understand why you are creating a competition between the men and the women. What does "rule tennis" even mean? There are many great players and matches of either sex. Just enjoy the game!
1
I find men's tennis boring. The points are usually short and one mistake a game can lose the match. No drama in men's tennis unless someone gets hurt during the match as often happens to Nadal. Now I won't watch any men's tennis thanks to Djokovic. Wonder if he took money to throw matches when he was a younger player.
1
Such a bizarre comment. I came of age in the 70s, when men and women players were both fantastic and fascinating. Connors and Evert. McEnroe, Borg, Navratilova. I have no idea whether the percentage of money earned or audience draws was vastly different, but my memory is that women were of equal news value.
Public awareness of tennis was such that it seemed like everyone played -- one had to wait for courts in my middle class public park. I think the Times article has it exactly right.
Public awareness of tennis was such that it seemed like everyone played -- one had to wait for courts in my middle class public park. I think the Times article has it exactly right.
3
Now that this is over maybe Serena can organize a player strike and demand that the women play 5 set matches at Grand Slam events - oh wait; that might be a bit too much equality huh ladies. But go ahead and keep demanding equal pay.
And women actually wonder why people see their "equality" demands as hypocritical whining and really a position more accurately described as ......... equal as long as it benefits us; all the negative stuff we'll pass on.
And women actually wonder why people see their "equality" demands as hypocritical whining and really a position more accurately described as ......... equal as long as it benefits us; all the negative stuff we'll pass on.
1
Ahh this old chestnut. The grand slams and television have always said they do not want women playing best of 5 because the scheduling will not accommodate that - as a result it was the women who have been told that they were not allowed to play best of 5 and never the women who said they would not. You cannot set a standard for equality and then not even allow them to play to that standard. Finally, men only play best of 5 at the grand slams - 4 tournaments a year on the ATP calendar.
21
Men make the rules. If you guys feel so put upon, why not have everybody play 3/2 which is the standard for both in many competitions. Hypocritical whining, indeed. Would you like to trade places with us and try out pregnancy, childbith and lactation? Or do you prefer to wallow in your aggrieved sense of non-superiority, whining about the idea of equality for the gender that happens to be the only one capable of producing the next generation for you?
12
walk up to 100 people on an American city street and ask them who Serena and Venus are. Then ask who the guys in this story are.
I will take any bet that far far more know the Williams sisters.
This guy is brain dead
I will take any bet that far far more know the Williams sisters.
This guy is brain dead
41
The plain fact of the matter is that IN THIS PERIOD OF TIME men's tennis is vastly more entertaining and interesting to watch. The variety and complexity in men's tennis is unmatched. The women's game seems to be confined to hitting the ball as hard as one can from the baseline: there are few if any dazzling rallies, no net play, multiple errors, and the deployment of a limited number of skills. At Indian Wells last week all the memorable matches were played by men.
This was not always the case as has been pointed out . When rackets were smaller in the eras of Evert, Navratilova, Henin, Seles, King , Graf and Goolajong you witnessed the display of the same broad range of skills that one sees in the the men's games and watching women play then was as absorbing as seeing men play today.
This was not always the case as has been pointed out . When rackets were smaller in the eras of Evert, Navratilova, Henin, Seles, King , Graf and Goolajong you witnessed the display of the same broad range of skills that one sees in the the men's games and watching women play then was as absorbing as seeing men play today.
30
Did you watch the women's final at Indian Wells? The semi finals? Because i saw far more variety in that final than I saw in the men's final.
6
The men's game also has an enormous number of serving giants. 6'5' and taller who try to win every game on 4 aces. It's so boring.
6
the plain fact is IN THIS PERIOD Of TIME, the greatest tennis player of the moment is a WOMAN. Even this supposedly pro-woman article is dismissive of the dominance of Serena Williams. So we not only have to address sexism, but the constant racism that minimizes her massive achievements.
5
The great tennis journalist/commentator/cheerleader Bud Collins must be rolling over in his grave. I wish he was around to contradict Raymond Moore's comments. I hope Larry Ellison, the tournament sponsor, asks Mr. Moore to tender his resignation.
11
It's absurd that the women, who play 2 out of 3 sets compared to the men's 3 out of 5 and whose game aside from the Williams sisters and perhaps 10 others is a game of moon balls, should receive equal pay. But of course, once again, Political Correctness has reared its ugly head and the usual suspects are crying 'foul.'
1
Another commenter has pointed out that men play the same number of sets as women in most competitions. And I will point out that the female players probably had no say in the rules about how many sets. But if your issue is equal work for equal pay, why not change it so women play 3/5 when the men do.
8
Do men play best of 5 at Indian Wells? 55 years watching tennis and you have not noticed that?
5
No, at Indian Wells the men and women both play best of three sets. The men play best of five at the four majors and in Davis Cup.
3
I'm a big tennis fan, and I find it sad that Moore and Djokovic have dragged us back to the 70s. You can't look at it only based on who sells more tickets. The very best players already make tons of money, but it is the entire spectacle with all of the players (men and women ) that make it so great. If anything, I think it would better if the prize money was spread around a little more than it is now. It is very difficult for players not in the top 20 to travel the world and compete against top players who bring an entire entourage with them.
Moore is a fool and should be fired. Djokovic is great, but probably should just focus on his game. He's already worth a couple hundred million. What's he barking about?
Moore is a fool and should be fired. Djokovic is great, but probably should just focus on his game. He's already worth a couple hundred million. What's he barking about?
153
Hey, I had a good time in the seventies!
1
yes dragged us back to the 70s - the 1870s!
4
Although Djokovic would have been much better off to say less, the circumstances of the two men are quite different. Moore seems to have initiated his own remarks, whereas the players have mandatory interviews after their tiring matches. After thousands of interviews, they might hardly know what they're saying. Granted, he could hardly have done worse this time.
2
Mr. Moore: There is but one explanation for your comments. Only one conclusion that can be drawn as there is little by the way of evidence to support your premise.
You, sir, are a mysonogist.
Take a look at the definition:
mysonogist
məˈsäjənəst/
noun
1.
a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.
synonyms: woman-hater; More .
Now while I am sure you are no overt woman hater, there is one line there that strongly applies "PREJUDICED AGAINST WOMEN."
That's you, sir.
How do I know?
Because women's tennis is thriving in every metric and is cherished across all starts of society. That you fail to noticed that you are alone in your opinion speaks to how ingrained your mysoginy is held.
For your own sake, and perhaps for your loved ones, go get some therapy to try and understand where this prejudice originates and how it became so ingrained in your world view.
Or don't.
You don't hurt us. You don't hurt tennis. Not even "women's tennis"--that juggernaut is doing just fine without you. In fact, in all the years of watching tennis, I never heard your name. Whatever role you play or don't play is inconsequential to both the success of the sport or the enjoyment of the fans.
So get yourself squared away.
Or don't.
It will make zero difference to me. The next time I am enjoying this incredible athletes (male or female) guess whose name I will have already forgotten?
Um. Yours.
You, sir, are a mysonogist.
Take a look at the definition:
mysonogist
məˈsäjənəst/
noun
1.
a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.
synonyms: woman-hater; More .
Now while I am sure you are no overt woman hater, there is one line there that strongly applies "PREJUDICED AGAINST WOMEN."
That's you, sir.
How do I know?
Because women's tennis is thriving in every metric and is cherished across all starts of society. That you fail to noticed that you are alone in your opinion speaks to how ingrained your mysoginy is held.
For your own sake, and perhaps for your loved ones, go get some therapy to try and understand where this prejudice originates and how it became so ingrained in your world view.
Or don't.
You don't hurt us. You don't hurt tennis. Not even "women's tennis"--that juggernaut is doing just fine without you. In fact, in all the years of watching tennis, I never heard your name. Whatever role you play or don't play is inconsequential to both the success of the sport or the enjoyment of the fans.
So get yourself squared away.
Or don't.
It will make zero difference to me. The next time I am enjoying this incredible athletes (male or female) guess whose name I will have already forgotten?
Um. Yours.
6
There really isn't an excuse for this in this day and age. He should resign immediately.
14
As someone who grew up in South Africa (and I'm only a few years younger than Raymond Moore) I'm not at all surprised to read his comments. No excuses, but it's easy to see how he came by his attitude - just unfortunate that he didn't learn or change.
94
or think what he wants and keep his mouth shut
thats how i got through life
i enjoy th thought that people have no idea what im thinking
thats how i got through life
i enjoy th thought that people have no idea what im thinking
They probably enjoy that too.
3
Frankly, I enjoy watching women tennis more. Men's tennis at the top level is simply too much of a power game taking away the aesthetic quality of the sport that still characterizes women tennis.
8
Moore's comments are so far beyond the pale that I am not clear whether dementia has affected his ability to do his job. If yes, he must step down. If no, he still must step down, because no apology is sufficient to excuse what he said. He should not be excused. He was clear and he was wrong.
18
Do we really need another "battle of the sexes" match? Very disappointing when leaders of the sport set players back to 1970's. Would love to watch a match between Serena and Novak.
3
Novak is too much of a gentleman and would never humiliate Serena in a 6-0, 6-0, 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 beatdown. Anyone who knows even a little about tennis knows this will be the score if both try their best. Jimmy Connors in his prime on the other hand...
2
Seriously. Especially about his "hormones and all that stuff" comment. Game on!
4
Yes...we all remember Jimmy Connors in his prime. Ask Billie Jean. Or go to the footage.
2
The most memorable tennis players are two black women from Compton and two lesbians. That is a lot to take in for an old, white dude from South Africa.
45
I think you just nailed it.
7
I think Moore should get on HIS knees and kiss some tennis sneakers to ask for forgiveness!
It was Bobby Riggs.
Watch Venus Vs. ( directed by Ava DuVernay) about equal pay for women.
It was Bobby Riggs.
Watch Venus Vs. ( directed by Ava DuVernay) about equal pay for women.
4
Moore is simply clueless; the question of men being the driving force in tennis having commercial success is a faulty framing. It is certainly not a matter of length of match=value. Many casual fans dread the 5 hour grinding baseline duels, many casual players identify more with the women's game & learn from it.
But worst of all - Djokovic has failed to become beloved. Drucker suggests an analogy to Lendl- both supreme winners - but tennis is also an entertainment.
Things other than winning, length of matches or macho fanboy excitement create the market. Sponsors may fear a long Djokovic reign as...sort of ...less exciting to fans. So he is a bit defensive and more than 'politically incorrect' - he is foolishly misguided to make a false comparison between women & men in tennis - especially as he raises his daughter.
But worst of all - Djokovic has failed to become beloved. Drucker suggests an analogy to Lendl- both supreme winners - but tennis is also an entertainment.
Things other than winning, length of matches or macho fanboy excitement create the market. Sponsors may fear a long Djokovic reign as...sort of ...less exciting to fans. So he is a bit defensive and more than 'politically incorrect' - he is foolishly misguided to make a false comparison between women & men in tennis - especially as he raises his daughter.
10
tennis is an athletic competition
if you cant enjoy it as such, youre missing th entire point
if you cant enjoy it as such, youre missing th entire point
Curiouser, I thought it was up to the free market to determine whether it's sport or entertainment. Remember, we can't dictate to the free market -- it always knows best!
Sara, I think you're rather insightful about Novak - but unfortunately for your point, he only has a son. I still love him, but he really put his foot into it this time.
1
I do not know the exact statistics but from my own observations I think there are as many women who watch tennis as men- So Mr Moore was disparaging the female fans as well- and future female players- Just unbelievable what he said.
It was like something that would have been said 40 years ago.
It was like something that would have been said 40 years ago.
120
Umm, "Steffi Graf was one of the greatest female tennis players..."? Nice caption. Remove. Foot. From. Mouth.
6
Why is it that men always assume that they aren't affected by "hormones and stuff"?
97
@L Owen: You are absolutely on target! (PS: Men are that way because their hormones addle their brains & impair their judgment.)
16
Really...men are affected by hormones to a much greater extent than women. For evidence, just look at crime statistics—more than 90% of homicides are committed by testosterone-flooded men. And who starts the vast majority of wars?
25
I bet more tennis rackets have been destroyed on courts by agitated men then women.
9
I'm certainly no tennis expert or great follower of the game, but it seems to me it's one of the few sports where men and women get equal billing and the games equally as exciting. I remember the great women players of the seventies Billie Jean King, Martina Natravalova, Evonne Goolagong, Rosie Casals, Chris Evert etc etc. Where has this Rip Van Winkle been sleeping all this time?
He needs to be pensioned off.
He needs to be pensioned off.
42
To hear Djokovik, a young man, makes those comments is disappointing to say the least. As a father of a young girl, I'm always looking for the younger generations to improve treatment of all others. A young man like him should set the example than the ones like Moore are unable to.
239
What did he say? That he should get more money if he can? And please stop with this nonsense that pro athletes should be role models for anyone.
1
Globally, men's tennis has always been significantly more popular than women's tennis except for perhaps a brief period in the early 2000s. It's hard to make a rational argument for equal prize money. Maybe, that's why rambling politically correct articles like this one don't actually make an argument. Instead, they lazily engage in moralizing and virtue signaling.
12
A non sports fan, I would bet, a lot, that many many more people would know who Venus and Serena are than the guys in this story.
There have been big, big stars in tennis back to Gussie Moran
This guy is beyond clueless.
There have been big, big stars in tennis back to Gussie Moran
This guy is beyond clueless.
6
As a kid, I always thought the men started playing because it was such a popular women's sport. The first tennis player I thought about and remember was Billie Jean King. I always think of "Tennis" and "Men's Tennis."
30
"Referring to Anna Kournikova, Hingis giggled and added, “And Anna looked pretty — it was nice to see her.”
O.K., so even a woman can stoop to the unhelpful stereotype of feminization"
Not sure that Martina was stereotyping anybody. Just making the valid point that Anna's popularity was entirely due to her sex appeal. As is noted, she never actually won a tournament.
Re the issue of equal pay, I agree entirely: women should get exactly 60% of what men do (three set matches vs five).
And Moore should be fired because his language was sexist and demeaning and obviously reflects his true attitude.
O.K., so even a woman can stoop to the unhelpful stereotype of feminization"
Not sure that Martina was stereotyping anybody. Just making the valid point that Anna's popularity was entirely due to her sex appeal. As is noted, she never actually won a tournament.
Re the issue of equal pay, I agree entirely: women should get exactly 60% of what men do (three set matches vs five).
And Moore should be fired because his language was sexist and demeaning and obviously reflects his true attitude.
44
Maybe it's time to let women set the rules on how many sets they play!
7
The VAST majority of professional tennis (do you even watch?) is best of three for both men and women. And using your logic - Fed needs to pay back some of his winnings. After all , think of those times he made it to the semis or finals by "only" playing three sets. Clearly he only worked as hard as those silly women.
23
This is a good reminder. I am always surprised that men play best two out of three and it is only in the majors that they play best of five.
4
Great article, Harvey. I found Moore's comments pretty but understandable for someone so tangentially related to the sport, but Djokovic, where did that come from? I thought the least likely to make mysogynist comments like that were male tennis players, and no, Novak, it has not been true for a very long time that the audience follows tennis primarily because of the male players. We know that Novak has a high opinion of himself, but as you point out well, women's tennis has been great for a long time, and that has been continued by the large crop of great current players.
11
Moore's comments insult ALL athletes because he is implying that athletes are "all brawn, no brain" and it is the men's higher muscle mass that makes them so much more watchable hence valuable to someone in his position as a tournament director. Hear that Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic? It's only about your muscle mass as a male and not about your brain as a human being with incredible work ethic, perseverance, focus, etc. How about standing up for all athletes and repudiating Moore's comments?
15
I have noticed in Europe women's sports is not taken very seriously. Women's World Cup soccer is barely covered unlike in America. It is easy to see how Europeans and people outside America don't see what the big fuss is.
I am a man who prefers women's tennis over the men. With women there are not just great matches, but the story lines are also great. So much drama on and off the court. There is always a strong rooting interest when the top players meet.
With the men it is just robotic. No emotions. No story line. Just a ruthless dismantling of their opponents. Whereas with the women I really care who wins or not, with the current men I don't care. I miss all the drama of McEnroe, Conners and Lendl.
For me it is simple; if the top female players like Serena, Venus, Maria, Azarenka are not playing, chances are I am not watching.
I am a man who prefers women's tennis over the men. With women there are not just great matches, but the story lines are also great. So much drama on and off the court. There is always a strong rooting interest when the top players meet.
With the men it is just robotic. No emotions. No story line. Just a ruthless dismantling of their opponents. Whereas with the women I really care who wins or not, with the current men I don't care. I miss all the drama of McEnroe, Conners and Lendl.
For me it is simple; if the top female players like Serena, Venus, Maria, Azarenka are not playing, chances are I am not watching.
12
To follow up on you first paragraph... I find women's World Cup soccer to be far more fascinating than the men's.
1
Who is this dinosaur? The apology is irrelevant, he should go because someone in his position can't function adequately while so impaired. As for Djokovic, well he may be a great tennis player, but obviously not a very smart man.
88
I enjoy watching women's tennis more than that of the men. That said, as this is an economic issue, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have the total purse split between men and women in proportion to their relative draws in terms of ticket sales and ad revenue. If that results in a lesser share for women than men, then it's hard not to conclude that Mr. Moore's comments didn't have some truth, however crudely put.
On a somewhat related issue, I fail to understand the reasoning behind having women play only 3-set matches vs. the 5-set matches of the men. In the men's game endurance is a major part of the competition, why not for women? Both sexes run marathons and triathlons.
On a somewhat related issue, I fail to understand the reasoning behind having women play only 3-set matches vs. the 5-set matches of the men. In the men's game endurance is a major part of the competition, why not for women? Both sexes run marathons and triathlons.
41
Not sure if splitting the purse proportionally would mean a smaller share for the women.
In a lot of other sports, such as basketball, your reasoning might be on point but I think Women's Tennis is a lot more popular than Men's Tennis.
The tennis stars in Men's have been fading. Male tennis players may be riding on the female tennis players' coattails, actually.
In a lot of other sports, such as basketball, your reasoning might be on point but I think Women's Tennis is a lot more popular than Men's Tennis.
The tennis stars in Men's have been fading. Male tennis players may be riding on the female tennis players' coattails, actually.
4
Interestingly, at this tournament, the men also play best of 3.
14
Yes, Scott, let's look at other professional sports in asking how prize money is determined, for instance, women's professional golf and basketball. Women's tennis (and running) are different than these and other sports, in that the tennis majors and a few ATP 1000 events, and marathons or track meets, are held jointly with men and women. When men and women compete in separate tournaments or meets it is ultimately the market place that determines compensation, how much money sponsors and the public are willing to pay.
2
Ask me who the best women players are, Serena and Venus Williams come to mind. Ask me about the men, can't name one.
16
Yes, your lack of tennis knowledge is indisputable proof that women's tennis > men's tennis.
8
Ignorance is not a virtue. Roger Federer is easily the famous tennis player in the world.
6
You must not be much or a tennis fan, if you're only aware of a few women competing.
3
What is the big deal?? Jeez. This the problem now in this country: eveybody has a problem with sumin'. This kind of stupidity is what allows Trump so much traction. AND it makes the front page of the NYT? How the mighty have fallen.
7
Clueless. And sexist. That's why it's on the front page.
19
And you are a wonderful example of why most women won't be voting for Donald Trump.
21
Don't forget men who care about our mothers and sisters and wives and daughters! we aren't voting for him either!
13
Doesn't he ride on the coattails of all the athletes? Where would he be without them? Deserves to be fired for his words. Not acceptable in way. If he remains, that just shows that we consider sexism not a problem.
400
Can we stop firing everyone for saying something offensive?
Literally everyone says things that are offensive to someone. I'm not sure we want to live in a world where everyone has to find a new way to feed their family every time they're dumb enough to be offensive with a microphone in the room.
Literally everyone says things that are offensive to someone. I'm not sure we want to live in a world where everyone has to find a new way to feed their family every time they're dumb enough to be offensive with a microphone in the room.
3
Ditto
He must have been blind drunk to say stuff like that where anybody could hear him.
I don't think resigning is enough. He should probably kill himself.
I don't think resigning is enough. He should probably kill himself.
This debate could be settled very easily if professional tennis would follow professional golf's policy of holding separate events. The WTA and ATP could hold separate events as well and the financial rewards for the players will be determined by the fans. Whoever attracts more fans and television viewers to their events would make more money.
1
This already happens. Its the majors and a few ATP 1000 events (Indian Wells and Miami) that create this issue.
2
Ah yes, the "separate but equal" philosophy.
In fact, most tournaments are separated by gender. This tournament is one of the few, maybe along with handful of events and the Grand Slams, to have both men and women.
Interesting that you include television viewers as part of your ranking. How are you going to tabulate that? Serena, by virtue of being American as well as the best woman player and seeking the calendar Grand Slam, certainly got far more TV time last year than anyone, men included.
Also, prize money is not determined now by such attendance and TV. It's the sponsors who put up the money. So if BNP Paribas, a French bank, wants to ensure that its women customers are as valued as their male customers, they should fire this guy.
In fact, most tournaments are separated by gender. This tournament is one of the few, maybe along with handful of events and the Grand Slams, to have both men and women.
Interesting that you include television viewers as part of your ranking. How are you going to tabulate that? Serena, by virtue of being American as well as the best woman player and seeking the calendar Grand Slam, certainly got far more TV time last year than anyone, men included.
Also, prize money is not determined now by such attendance and TV. It's the sponsors who put up the money. So if BNP Paribas, a French bank, wants to ensure that its women customers are as valued as their male customers, they should fire this guy.
11
I don't think his opinion should cost him his job. If he feels that way, then fine. Who cares? Lets face it, most of us think he's an idiot but why are we so incredibly hurt or offended by his statements? We've come a long way ladies. Let him have his opinions. We should be stronger than a bunch of cry babies. Serena could bash his face into the ground without blinking an eye. Thats enough for me!
12
LOL. This was a great comment!
1
He should lose his job because it gives him a platform for his statements to reach a lot of people. Same reason the NFL and NBA should be stricter than general society for sexual violence and domestic abuse, drunk driving, etc. These people's actions and the consequences or lack thereof are broadcast for many young minds to see, and by not strongly and harshly condemning it, which firing him would be, we say it's ok to tell female professionals to get on their knees and thank us.
13
I love watching tennis. I watch both Men's and Women's. I started as a kid watching Navratilova (I think one of the greatest athletes ever) vs. Evert and Borg vs. McEnroe. I would say in the last 10 years I watch women's tennis 2 to 1 over men's tennis.
101
I agree with you but That's anecdotal. Attendance at men's tourneys is far greater.
I am a man and a huge tennis fan. Given a choice between watching men's or women's tennis, I'll choose women every time. The men's game is often a serving contest, and who wants to sit through 5 sets anyway? I certainly appreciate the tremendous skill and hard work that the men put in, but top level women's tennis is just more fun to watch. I find it extremely frustrating that Canadian sports channels like TSN frequently do not even cover women's matches on TV (unless Genie Bouchard is playing). I think that every chance to watch Serena Williams, the greatest player ever, needs to be savored before she retires!
97
you think youre a huge tennis fan but cant sit through 5 sets ?
youre no tennis fan at all
after a 5 hour, 5 set match played in th Aussie open recently, i could have watched another 5 hours,right then and there
youre no tennis fan at all
after a 5 hour, 5 set match played in th Aussie open recently, i could have watched another 5 hours,right then and there
14
Men's tennis hasn't been a serving contest in about 15 years. Serena actually relies on her serve more than the top male players.
9
The headline "Only a Man Could Forget When Women Ruled Tennis" is kind of insulting. Don't blame all men for the real or perceived slights of one.
9
Right. The headline is offensive. Surprised to see it.
1
Must be the season for 'telling it like it is' - especially when bigotry and ignorance is confused with truth.
46
I have never been a Serena Williams fan until reading her rejection to Moore’s offensive comments; "Get on your knees, which is offensive enough, and ‘thank a man’? We, as women, have come a long way. We shouldn’t have to drop to our knees at any point.” Also, Serena's photo bomb with Victoria Azarenka receiving the winner’s trophy is priceless! Who would have known she could still express such humor after her loss in the finals?
155
Although what he said is abhorrent - we can test his thesis with a sport remarkably similar except for separate venues for the men and women: Professional Golf
The 2016 PGA Tour is featuring 47 events (not counting the Ryder Cup) and total prize money of $325.2 million for the men golfers. The LPGA Tour is featuring 34 events and total prize money of $63.1 million for the women golfers.
The average amount of prize money up for grabs at the PGA Tour events is $6.9 million vs. $1.9 million for the LPGA events
The 2016 PGA Tour is featuring 47 events (not counting the Ryder Cup) and total prize money of $325.2 million for the men golfers. The LPGA Tour is featuring 34 events and total prize money of $63.1 million for the women golfers.
The average amount of prize money up for grabs at the PGA Tour events is $6.9 million vs. $1.9 million for the LPGA events
12
all you're proving is we pay women less for their labor. not that it's worth less money.
21
I almost never watch golf except for the last 10 years and the LPGA.
Are you a foreigner like Moore or Doki too?
Are you a foreigner like Moore or Doki too?
3
No, it's the market place, like it or not.
1
Good article and it's great to stress the rich history of women's tennis with so many legends, but it's not stooping to a stereotype to mention the appearance of someone who only flitted with playing tennis in order to get into a modeling career. It would be a stereotype to say that about Bouchard, who made it to 3 Grand Slam finals in a row and is a serious player, but I don't think Anna Kournikova ever made it past a third round and wanted to get on the cover of GQ as much as in another tournament from the get go. Anna Kournikova lived the stereotype that would be demeaningly applied to other players, so you can't fault Hingis for pointing out the obvious.
6
True, Kournikova never found much success in singles, but people forget she was quite a good doubles player, winning the Australian Open and at one point being ranked #1 in doubles. I've always thought it a bit unfair that her doubles career is so overlooked.
1
It is indeed disappointing to hear Djokovic use such crude language and absolutely outrageous that Moore should get away with his comments. Djokovic is not in the same class as Federer. It doesn't matter that Moore apologized. We now know what he is thinking. He has done a disservice to all tennis players - especially female players - and also the tournament. This tournament is one of the best outside of Grand Slams and it will be severely diminished if women players don't show up next year. I hope Larry Ellison saves the tournament and does the game he loves a huge favor by asking for Moore's resignation.
64
Bravo for your comment. Perhaps some women should start boycotting Djokovic's matches because you know, "hormone issues."
24
Count me in. I'm so disappointed in Djokovic. May Federer and Nadal - and whomever - best him from here on out.
20
The surprise isn't that someone in his position feels as he does - it's horrible how many more men in positions of responsibility all across the business world share his views. The surprise is that he was careless enough to be honest.
91
"When Women Ruled Tennis"? Really? When was this?
17
It is really disheartening that the director of a co-ed event would have such contempt for female players. If Moore is allowed to keep his position it will be a reflection of the tournament's attitude as well. The WTA needs to step up for a once and support their players unequivocally.
As for Djokovic, every time he steps into something like this I am reminded of why I can never be a fan.
As for Djokovic, every time he steps into something like this I am reminded of why I can never be a fan.
97
Yes, it is true. Dinosaurs walk among us and we must not forget that!
76
Demonstrably, there are a lot of stupid men involved in tennis. Today's biggest dunce is Raymond Moore. Moore needs to remove himself (or be removed) from anything involving women and tennis, as his thinking on the subject is quite twisted and archaic.
If there were a "Donald Trump Room" - a kind of penalty box where brainless misogynistic men could be sequestered, so they don't bother the rest of us - then surely both Mr. Moore and Mr. Djokovic belong there.
If there were a "Donald Trump Room" - a kind of penalty box where brainless misogynistic men could be sequestered, so they don't bother the rest of us - then surely both Mr. Moore and Mr. Djokovic belong there.
146
Let's state this a little more clearly: there would BE no tennis (or basketball, or football, or soccer, or any other sport for that matter) if not for men. Women are latecomers in all sports, and their game is not nearly as evolved or powerful as the men's--and probably never will be at the highest levels. There may indeed be brief periods of time, now and again, where the women's side of a sport becomes more compelling than the men's side, because of, say, some rivalry or interesting personal narrative, despite a lower level of play. And during those periods, I suppose that, yes, men should indeed get down on their knees and give thanks that the women's side of the draw is subsidizing their paycheck, as Kane suggested. And yes, some journeyman tournament player with a rating well below the top 10 should indeed be thanking daily his betters who are essentially subsidizing his paycheck, which would be far less without the interest that the players at the top generate. No man would flinch at that statement. Ladies, ask yourselves: why is that such a hard concept to understand when the gender is switched? Moore was absolutely correct--don't shoot the messenger because you can't handle the way he said it. It makes you look weak.
13
"Women are latecomers in all sports, and their game is not nearly as evolved or powerful as the men's" Hmmm. And why would that be? Could it be sexism? You know, the assumption that girls and women should be weak and dainty, should not get too muscular, and shouldn't be too boisterous. Or maybe it's just because everything men do is valued more than anything women do. (Presumably, you've never heard of that "swimming the English Channel" thing or, conveniently, don't consider it a "sport.)
As for the second part of that particular sentence, "and probably never will be at the highest levels", it is pure sexism. We do not live in a world where women, especially women's sports are valued and developed as much as men's. You have no way to know that women's form and skill will never equal men's. You just believe that due to sexism.
As for the second part of that particular sentence, "and probably never will be at the highest levels", it is pure sexism. We do not live in a world where women, especially women's sports are valued and developed as much as men's. You have no way to know that women's form and skill will never equal men's. You just believe that due to sexism.
69
You need to go watch ATP and WTA matches in person, or for that matter, any sport. Evan Wallace's statement is absolutely accurate even though it may not be to your liking. The physical fitness and skills to win an ATP match is so much greater than those needed to win a WTA match. There is no comparison. My question is why is the 2000th best tennis player (yes, Serena) playing against inferior competition win the same purse as the best player in the world playing against the best competitors in the world? Simple, reverse sexism.
7
Wow. You sound like the guys back in the day who insisted women couldn't handle careers requiring leadership or advanced technical skills. As evidence, they'd point out that most women became nurses, secretaries or teachers. Yeah, they did -- because they were barred from pretty much everything else. What is it about historical gender barriers that YOU don't understand?
Maybe you should try that discussion with these women:
http://www.businessinsider.com/first-women-to-earn-army-ranger-tab-2015-8
Maybe you should try that discussion with these women:
http://www.businessinsider.com/first-women-to-earn-army-ranger-tab-2015-8
15
As an aging man, I sometimes worry whether comments like this, which are simply inaccurate in addition to being sexist and tone-deaf, are the product of age-related cognitive decline. Like when your grandparents "lose their filter" and start saying outrageous things at Thanksgiving that you know they never would have said when they were younger, and you have to tell your kids, "Grandpa is just getting a little older, and doesn't really meant that." Just like Grandpa has to give up his driver's license when he starts running over shopping carts, it looks like it is time for Raymond Moore to hand over his keys to this tournament.
179
It doesn't help that he is South African - sexism - particularly with men of his generation is ingrained in the culture.
6
I work with a lot of older people as a health professional and it is dangerous to excuse people's behaviors simply because they are older. It used to be that the assumption was older folks would automatically become senile so people with neurological illnesses were missed. I don't want it to swing too far the other way though where Alzheimer's or other deficits are blamed for someone's poor behavior. The abilities and opinions of older folks vary as much as younger folks -- there are people who are disabled by the time they're in their 60s while some in their 90s are swimming laps (literally) around youngsters daily. Similar, I work with some people in their 70s and 90s who haven't lost their filters and in fact continue to evolve and learn. Most recently, my 75-yr. old colleague told me he had learned from his students to differentiate between sex (biologically based) and gender (related to how one identifies oneself) and no longer used these words interchangeably.
2
You are right, but the problem - this IS what he really thinks, but knew enough and hand the control to avoid saying out loud before...
Sports popularity and thus revenue is what the media puts before us. We have out-of-season baseball headlines in March that overshadow the women's NCAA tourney. 95% of NCAA hoops coverage is about the men's tourney becuz men rule the sports departments in all major media. As Jas Brown would say, "It's a man's world" ... I guess he's not familiar with Title IX legislation..nor are the media, n'est-ce pas?
6
Soccer you are right, but not in USA soccer. The women's cup final drew a much better share than a NBA final that night. I only watch women's soccer cuz those are much "better" than all the dives men take and are not as much fun.
3
What an ignorant man. That he even thinks this and feels so unfettered in his belief that he actually says it out loud. Yes women should not play Indian Wells until he resigns.
188
He needs to either resign immediately or be dismissed from all involvement with tennis. The remarks he made were appalling and unconscionable in 21st century America. Women have fought long and hard and have a lot further to go before achieving full equality. I will not support any tournament that employs him in an official capacity. So I won't be attending the matches at Indian Wells or even watching them on cable tv. Until he is gone. What a shame. It's a lovely venue and terrific matches over the years - the women's as well as the men's. But his remarks went beyond anything that could be satisfied by an apology. He needs to get down on his own knees tonight and prey to Goddess for forgiveness.
79
On reading your comment it's impossible to not feel sympathy for Raymond Moore.
First of all, he isn't a 21st Century American. He's South African and for better or worse sensibilities there are a tad different than in the US. This doesn't excuse his remarks but perhaps a bit of contextual compassion is in order.
And frankly, I find your bloodthirsty desire for revenge to be equally as distasteful as his remarks. Sure, bounce him from the tournament and honestly no one cares if you attend or not, but humiliating him serves no purpose other than to make you feel better which I'm not sure it would in the long term.
For my money, an apology and contrition are enough. More than that is vengeance which is quite unseemly.
First of all, he isn't a 21st Century American. He's South African and for better or worse sensibilities there are a tad different than in the US. This doesn't excuse his remarks but perhaps a bit of contextual compassion is in order.
And frankly, I find your bloodthirsty desire for revenge to be equally as distasteful as his remarks. Sure, bounce him from the tournament and honestly no one cares if you attend or not, but humiliating him serves no purpose other than to make you feel better which I'm not sure it would in the long term.
For my money, an apology and contrition are enough. More than that is vengeance which is quite unseemly.
1
If Raymond Moore had expressed this opinion in any way that was racist, he would be gone.
Sexism deserves, and we should demand, the same resolution.
Why is he still employed?
Sexism deserves, and we should demand, the same resolution.
Why is he still employed?
283
He isn't. He quit.
Now that your thirst for revenge has been sated do you feel better?
Now that your thirst for revenge has been sated do you feel better?
2
MEN!!!! When will they stop being threatened by women? We don't want to rule the world, though we could, and do it well, but why can't we just recognize each other's skills and talents. We ALL belong to this world. I am not on your coattails, MISTER Moore.
123
I'd kind of like to rule the world.
1
Why not have a chance at ruling the world? Men have been doing it for millenia. We certainly couldn't do worse.
3
When Mr. Moore made his apology to the WTA did he get on his knees to ask forgiveness? Maybe being in such a humble position in front of a group of powerful women would have given him a taste of the demeaning behavior he was so casually instructing women to take. I hope Mr. Moore will take early retirement so that Indian Wells can hire a qualified spokesperson to restore the luster to this tournament.
117
love this image!
1
That fact that he is no newcomer to the sport, suggests that he is only saying what probably everyone in the tennis estrablishment thinks and believes.
So if the women's side of tennis wants to prove him worn, why not split the men's and the women's circuits to different schedules and see how they hold up?
If not, a good measure of equal pay for equal work would be to make women play for 5 sets in stead of 3?
So if the women's side of tennis wants to prove him worn, why not split the men's and the women's circuits to different schedules and see how they hold up?
If not, a good measure of equal pay for equal work would be to make women play for 5 sets in stead of 3?
5
A good tennis match, whether played by men, women or mixed doubles, stands on its own merit. I will watch, appreciate and enjoy a match regardless of the genders involved.
I do have one major beef: 3 sets for women vs 5 sets for men. Either everyone go to 3 sets, or the women should play 5 sets (at the Slams). Then that playing field (and compensation) becomes level.
I do have one major beef: 3 sets for women vs 5 sets for men. Either everyone go to 3 sets, or the women should play 5 sets (at the Slams). Then that playing field (and compensation) becomes level.
2
Banzai, the vast majority of tournaments on the ATP and WTA circuits are already on different schedules. Only the four Majors and three mandatory events are played simultaneously in the same venue. So the circuits are split except for the biggest events. With regard to winning three sets to win a match (3 sets out of 5) only four tournaments require men to do this. For all other tournaments (excluding the Davis Cup, which has nothing to do with female tennis players) the men and women need to win two sets to win the match. Many female tennis players have said they would gladly play the same amount of sets as the men do at the four Majors. So, the women do play the same number of sets as the men at all of their tournaments except four the 4 Majors, where women players have said they are willing to play more sets.
21
Sit thru 5 sets of women's tennis? Just shoot me now.
3
It is amazing that Mr. Moore would make his obviously ignorant observations in a public statement, even if he had such thoughts. As this author makes clear, even a cursory recalling of tennis history reveals the numerous and varied contributions and successes of many players, both female and male. If the overseers at Indian Wells had any gumption, they would immediately usher Mr. Moore to the sidelines.
29
I agree sexism is rampant in tennis. Obviously it is time to have one tournament for both men and women in the same bracket and make the women play 5 sets.
14
Men don't play 5 sets except for the grand slams.
31
Moore is right in one sense, even if he is crude bordering on vulgarity.
But for the fact and happy accident that Tennis Grand Slam Events can be played by both men and women competitors at the same venues during the same weeks, it seems unlikely the prize money would be the same, even though the women are fine players with their own styles. But the women players did a great job a few years ago in getting even prize splits at the Grand Slams, as Martina points out.
It certainly isn't true in golf, which cannot have such an overlap of space and time, and where the earnings, attendances and TV coverage are hugely different by gender. And basketball has no comparability of the two genders. Who fills out a Women's NCAA bracket except President Obama?
So some sports are specific to themselves as to appeal resulting in financial reward, like figure skating, where the women are far more popular than the men, even though the men's and women's events seem to overlap. The Tennis women don't need to bend knee to anybody, but they are fortunate the way their sport has worked out compared to others.
But for the fact and happy accident that Tennis Grand Slam Events can be played by both men and women competitors at the same venues during the same weeks, it seems unlikely the prize money would be the same, even though the women are fine players with their own styles. But the women players did a great job a few years ago in getting even prize splits at the Grand Slams, as Martina points out.
It certainly isn't true in golf, which cannot have such an overlap of space and time, and where the earnings, attendances and TV coverage are hugely different by gender. And basketball has no comparability of the two genders. Who fills out a Women's NCAA bracket except President Obama?
So some sports are specific to themselves as to appeal resulting in financial reward, like figure skating, where the women are far more popular than the men, even though the men's and women's events seem to overlap. The Tennis women don't need to bend knee to anybody, but they are fortunate the way their sport has worked out compared to others.
4
Moore needs to go down on his knees and beg to not be expelled from the tennis community. Even McEnroe has criticized his comments. In my day we called men like Moore chauvinist pigs.
Moore reminds of the guy who dared Billie Jean King to a match to allegedly prove men were superior tennis players. I don't remember his name, but I know he lost the game. Moore has lost too...
Moore reminds of the guy who dared Billie Jean King to a match to allegedly prove men were superior tennis players. I don't remember his name, but I know he lost the game. Moore has lost too...
171
Bobby Higgs, I think.
1
The match to which you refer has nothing to do with the Moore comments. The Bobby Riggs / Billie Jean King match was an idea Riggs hatched to make tennis more popular, it had nothing to do with proving women players substandard, men are always better players, etc. If you follow Riggs career, he was a master showman who wanted to make tennis more popular. Indeed, he toured the country playing exhibition matches at high schools, state tournaments, etc. just to make the sport more popular. Riggs was one of the great promoters of popular tennis, and just wanted to get people interested in the game. The fact that you (and I) remember the match so clearly just goes to show how good he was.
4
Bobby Riggs, and, yes, Billie Jean annihilated him.
11
That assertion, and the underlying reasons for it if true, seems the more salient question than whether or not his language was offensive. Ironically he articulated an expectation that is perfectly in line with gender equality: each gender should contribute equally to the interest in the game. That there is more concern with offense, than with holding all parties accountable to an equal expectation, is a telling indication of the sexism of low expectations.
"Don't bother holding the women to the same level of promotion and interest as the men," is more sexist than any perverted interpretations of Moore's remarks.