The story and responses are familiar to those of us who grew up in the American South during segregation, and those who live in a “red state” where politicians retain power by exploiting old divisions and cultivating new ones.
Hated of our fellow men empowers the demagogues who defile our homelands. Hate gives rise to strife, civil wars, and holocausts. Hate created modern Syria.
Respect for others is the path to domestic tranquility. Respect brings peace, prosperity, liberty, and justice. Respect created modern Switzerland.
Now, just how do we go about convincing mankind to love their own children more than they hate their neighbors?
Hated of our fellow men empowers the demagogues who defile our homelands. Hate gives rise to strife, civil wars, and holocausts. Hate created modern Syria.
Respect for others is the path to domestic tranquility. Respect brings peace, prosperity, liberty, and justice. Respect created modern Switzerland.
Now, just how do we go about convincing mankind to love their own children more than they hate their neighbors?
2
This is no different than the way African-Americans are still treated today.
2
What concerns me, after reading the article and the comments is this: with all of the problems we have here in the US with unequal treatment, immigrants from India are bringing another layer.
2
India has accommodated diversity and pluralism in various spheres and at group levels via caste system - caste system has evolved out of need to give freedom and autonomy at group level to diverse and divergent aspirations, and bewildering diversity seen in India have survived in India only because of caste system. One can not be for diversity, pluralism, tolerance and group freedom/rights and than abuse caste system, it smacks of vendetta, subversion and ulterior. For caste system to be a positive force in a society, each caste has to respect the freedom/autonomy of other castes and seek to stand on their own, instead of encroaching or leeching on others. But when statist ideologies and power hungry political parties pit castes against each other, patronize chosen group of castes against others for votebanks, when hostile theologies seek to divide and conquere castes for conversion, every caste feels threatened and oppressed by other castes - British rulers and post-independent leftists have been harvesting such oppression for their politics and power.
In every society, crimes happen, people engage in all kind of acts of discrimination, hate, aggression, violence. Leftist politicians immediately communalize or caste-color such incidents for propaganda and politics. They have to keep up the propaganda and constantly fish for such events to keep up their war on caste system, as their power rests on it.
In every society, crimes happen, people engage in all kind of acts of discrimination, hate, aggression, violence. Leftist politicians immediately communalize or caste-color such incidents for propaganda and politics. They have to keep up the propaganda and constantly fish for such events to keep up their war on caste system, as their power rests on it.
1
Reservation has failed in India. It has created only creamy layer without lifting the status of so-called dalits or obc castes. Reservation demeans the accomplishments of people belonging to reserved castes and has created resentment against such castes. It has only served corrupt politicians who get political lifeline by pandering to insecurities and oppression felt by all castes. There are large number of poor as well as well-to-do people in all castes including Dalits, ST and OBC - those who need it end up hogging the quota while rest remain frustrated and angry, and willy politicians seek to divert their anger at other castes with constant barrage of propaganda of caste oppression.
Just recently, some 150 Dalit houses were attacked and their houses burnt in a state of Bihar, but you will not find it in news or propaganda, no usual politicians have visited the affected people, usual suspects who cried river over Rohith's suicide has no tears for this event, because it happened in a leftist ruled state of Bihar, which is the vatican of caste and dalit politics. For them, caste politics is political expediency.
Just recently, some 150 Dalit houses were attacked and their houses burnt in a state of Bihar, but you will not find it in news or propaganda, no usual politicians have visited the affected people, usual suspects who cried river over Rohith's suicide has no tears for this event, because it happened in a leftist ruled state of Bihar, which is the vatican of caste and dalit politics. For them, caste politics is political expediency.
6
Caste based reservations were created to give a helping hand to those who had suffered centuries of deprivation.
The effects of this deprivation are not going to disappear in a few years. So how long does one continue this special treatment? It creates resentment among others who feel that they are paying a price now for crimes committed by others in the past.
It would be better to convert the system to one based on income, with additional points given if the person belongs to a scheduled caste and lesser points if the person comes from other backward castes.
The effects of this deprivation are not going to disappear in a few years. So how long does one continue this special treatment? It creates resentment among others who feel that they are paying a price now for crimes committed by others in the past.
It would be better to convert the system to one based on income, with additional points given if the person belongs to a scheduled caste and lesser points if the person comes from other backward castes.
4
In today's India Dalits have improved their lifestyle significantly, they were given good opportunities to succeed, but in the case of Rohit vemula it is more politically motivated. This is a fight of ego with his rivalary. which is politically backed with peoples who use dalits as vote bank. The upliftment of dalits in every field in India compared to any other caste is way head to all others. Now political parties are using this old curse to take advantage over their rivalary by igniting flames between indians. a feeling of hate is mobilized with all concept to effect a vote bank. And in this process this so called Thinkers are helping by projecting wrong facts.
3
Don't you just love it?
Pass a law to improve the lives of the very worse-off and some rich man will declare himself a "victim" and demand the loot.
And, worse, the State will smack its forehead and declare, "What was I thinking?!?" and hand over the resources to the wealthy land-owners.
"My birth is my fatal accident."
I regret Rohith Vemula's death.
Pass a law to improve the lives of the very worse-off and some rich man will declare himself a "victim" and demand the loot.
And, worse, the State will smack its forehead and declare, "What was I thinking?!?" and hand over the resources to the wealthy land-owners.
"My birth is my fatal accident."
I regret Rohith Vemula's death.
3
"My birth is my fatal accident" are the saddest words I've read in a long time.
6
The author seem to have purposefully presented partial truth possibly to drive political mileage and get some sympathy for 'poor wretched unjust' India (the way she wants to others to see it).
1. Yes, there has been a Caste system which was highly discriminatory. However historically, such division has been a part of many societies, its much less damning than slavery that was rampant in many 'developed' countries not so long ago.
2. Though Caste-ism is historic fact, most Indians generally don't take pride in it (esp. the bad treatment to 'lower castes)
3. Most important fact is that post Independence, India (that was still dominated by 'higher castes' then) took up one of world's most beneficial program targeted to benefit 'lower castes'. Almost half the govt jobs (mind it there were negligible jobs outside govt),seats in Legislative assemblies, premier education institutes were reserved for 'lower castes' and as a result, many of India's leaders now come from these castes.
Also, a very strong law has been put in place by Indian constitution whereby just insinuating somebody's (lower) caste can land you in jail merely on verbal complaint(i.e. no documentary proof reqd). (there have been many instances of its misuse though)
Therefore India society also deserves credit for taking right (& huge) steps for correcting this historic wrong whereas the erstwhile imperialist powers like Britain never compensated its colonies for the Loot, Insult it heaped on other in Asia and Africa.
1. Yes, there has been a Caste system which was highly discriminatory. However historically, such division has been a part of many societies, its much less damning than slavery that was rampant in many 'developed' countries not so long ago.
2. Though Caste-ism is historic fact, most Indians generally don't take pride in it (esp. the bad treatment to 'lower castes)
3. Most important fact is that post Independence, India (that was still dominated by 'higher castes' then) took up one of world's most beneficial program targeted to benefit 'lower castes'. Almost half the govt jobs (mind it there were negligible jobs outside govt),seats in Legislative assemblies, premier education institutes were reserved for 'lower castes' and as a result, many of India's leaders now come from these castes.
Also, a very strong law has been put in place by Indian constitution whereby just insinuating somebody's (lower) caste can land you in jail merely on verbal complaint(i.e. no documentary proof reqd). (there have been many instances of its misuse though)
Therefore India society also deserves credit for taking right (& huge) steps for correcting this historic wrong whereas the erstwhile imperialist powers like Britain never compensated its colonies for the Loot, Insult it heaped on other in Asia and Africa.
4
While in India, I was surprised at the number of people who expressed sadness that they hand't been able to marry the person they loved because of cast. Decades later, they still pined for their lost love. When I asked why they didn't simply go against the custom, they said if they did, their family would be shunned, their sisters possibly attacked, and their mothers might have even committed suicide.
When asked if they thought the caste system would ever end completely, many reacted with shock, saying that it was part of their religion and the principle of Karma. To reject caste was to reject their religious belief that one is born into a low or high caste based on their actions in a previous life, so it was fair.
The elephant in the room is the fact that the caste problem is one of religion and superstition as much as white privilege (lighter skin being a mark of higher caste as much as surname). Without going to the true source of the matter, how can one hope to solve this tragic discrimination that has no place in the modern world?
When asked if they thought the caste system would ever end completely, many reacted with shock, saying that it was part of their religion and the principle of Karma. To reject caste was to reject their religious belief that one is born into a low or high caste based on their actions in a previous life, so it was fair.
The elephant in the room is the fact that the caste problem is one of religion and superstition as much as white privilege (lighter skin being a mark of higher caste as much as surname). Without going to the true source of the matter, how can one hope to solve this tragic discrimination that has no place in the modern world?
6
There is a big lapse in this article, In today's India Dalits have improved their lifestyle significantly, they were given good opportunities to succeed, but in the case of Rohit vemula it is more politically motivated. This is a fight of ego with his rivalary. which is politically backed with peoples who use dalits as vote bank. The upliftment of dalits in every field in India compared to any other caste is way head to all others. Now political parties are using this old curse to take advantage over their rivalary by igniting flames between indians. a feeling of hate is mobilized with all concept to effect a vote bank. And in this process this so called Thinkers are helping by projecting wrong facts.
2
Caste system should have been a long forgotten, one had there are no politics involved in it. I don't think this system of reservations exists else where. People should be given basic education and should be brought to equal IQ status. Instead they have opted for reservations where few families/persons enjoy those privileges for decades and doesn't allow even their fellow persons to develop. By giving reservations the urge of competitiveness in the them is being lost. Though fellow students strive hard to get through studies for better settlements, the person with reservation always is assured of his future to some extent neglects studies and gets disillusioned with agitations and ends up elsewhere. I have seen many downtrodden who had utilized the opportunity of reservations and had climbed the ladder of success and are equally respected with the upper class. But some got caught into the complacency and have squandered the opportunity of coming out & lifting out their near and dear. Those who got into the quagmire of politics have not only suffered but had also didn't help even their own ones. I believe one should first reach bank and pull all others. Once you make a mark of yourself there is no untouchability. I feel people should be trained with all the necessary skills and rest to left to competition. Reservations if should be economy based and that too only for a single generation.
2
There cannot be any form of social or economic equality which the Indian Constitution so eloquently guarrantees so long Indian society is divided into castes.Hindus are taught that the Brahmans are Bhu-Devas or gods on earth.This is a prime negation of dignity of those who are not Brahmans.
The Hindu caste system divides men into different communities and places these communities in social order,one above the other.All are slaves of caste system,but all the slaves are not equal in status.Hence ,there is no equality and liberty is a far cry.
Indian society is crushed under feudal caste divide and neo-liberal economic order.This poses greatest threat to the very nature of human dignity and repect for basic individual as a human being.
Rhotith Vemula suicide note speaks about it,"I feel a growing gap between my soul and my body--The value of man was reduced to his immediate identity --My birth is my fatal accident--- I can never recover from my childhood lonelioness".
Rise of voices against the tyranny of caste exploitation,economic disparity, fear of uncertain future and disdain of mritocracy may be attributed to fear that India, gradually but certainly, is slipping India into a 'Hindu Nation' discarding all shackles of a pluralistic,liberal democracy enunciated by the Constitution Founding Fathers.
The idea India should be a Hindu Nation is highly contested and there is universal unacceptability of this idea,except a tiny fraction of religion bigot assuming political power.
The Hindu caste system divides men into different communities and places these communities in social order,one above the other.All are slaves of caste system,but all the slaves are not equal in status.Hence ,there is no equality and liberty is a far cry.
Indian society is crushed under feudal caste divide and neo-liberal economic order.This poses greatest threat to the very nature of human dignity and repect for basic individual as a human being.
Rhotith Vemula suicide note speaks about it,"I feel a growing gap between my soul and my body--The value of man was reduced to his immediate identity --My birth is my fatal accident--- I can never recover from my childhood lonelioness".
Rise of voices against the tyranny of caste exploitation,economic disparity, fear of uncertain future and disdain of mritocracy may be attributed to fear that India, gradually but certainly, is slipping India into a 'Hindu Nation' discarding all shackles of a pluralistic,liberal democracy enunciated by the Constitution Founding Fathers.
The idea India should be a Hindu Nation is highly contested and there is universal unacceptability of this idea,except a tiny fraction of religion bigot assuming political power.
2
It was terribly brave and daring of the creators of the Indian Constitution, to envisage equality for all, in a society where people are not even born equal. And that is where the sadness resides, that the bravery has not come to fruitition.
5
With very few exceptions, the Indians whom I have been fortunate to come to know are kind, thoughtful, reflective, philosophical and emphatic. At the same time, I recall being shocked by the treatment of Untouchables and other lower castes, all in the name of the hindu religion. To this day, I cannot reconcile the two, nor can I imagine the mental gymnastics the upper castes must put themselves through to overlook the injustices perpetrated on the bottom castes on a daily basis. At a certain point, one has to wonder why the religion did not reform itself, but that it took governmental action to attempt some form of fairness and opportunity.
2
"The group’s members discussed not only Dalit issues, but also other controversial matters: the death penalty; Kashmir’s problematic relationship with the Indian union; communal violence against minorities, especially Muslims, in what is an officially secular nation."
I wonder if they discussed misogyny and the overt discrimination against female fetuses, girls and women? Do any our on line comrades know about this?
I wonder if they discussed misogyny and the overt discrimination against female fetuses, girls and women? Do any our on line comrades know about this?
6
Casteism is now actually becoming greatly eradicated through intermarriage.
This article doesn’t mention why it is has been so difficult to get rid of caste.
Hindu reformers from the 5th century onwards have sought to remove caste barriers. Caste is also present in South Asian Christian, Muslim and Sikh communities.
Recently, an Italian gondolier proudly told me he was a 5th generation gondolier. With the exception of Dalits, this is how many castes, regardless of "hierarchical position" perceive themselves. For thousands of years each subcaste has had its surnames, occupation, rituals, dialect, foods and attire.
During the British Raj lucrative employment opportunities were given exclusively to upper castes. The Indian constitution outlawed caste-based discrimination in 1947 when much of the world was practicing race-based segregation. Note that the current prime minister is from a “low caste” community
Currently Dalits or "other backward classes" make up 25% of the Indian population. The extensive affirmative action system designed to eradicate this scourge simply has perpetuated it and has caused resentment among other impoverished communities who, simply based on their surname, can't get university seats or jobs in a desperately poor country. Reforming this system to award positions based on economic background would simultaneously help those individuals that truly need it and help break the cycle of caste-identification
This article doesn’t mention why it is has been so difficult to get rid of caste.
Hindu reformers from the 5th century onwards have sought to remove caste barriers. Caste is also present in South Asian Christian, Muslim and Sikh communities.
Recently, an Italian gondolier proudly told me he was a 5th generation gondolier. With the exception of Dalits, this is how many castes, regardless of "hierarchical position" perceive themselves. For thousands of years each subcaste has had its surnames, occupation, rituals, dialect, foods and attire.
During the British Raj lucrative employment opportunities were given exclusively to upper castes. The Indian constitution outlawed caste-based discrimination in 1947 when much of the world was practicing race-based segregation. Note that the current prime minister is from a “low caste” community
Currently Dalits or "other backward classes" make up 25% of the Indian population. The extensive affirmative action system designed to eradicate this scourge simply has perpetuated it and has caused resentment among other impoverished communities who, simply based on their surname, can't get university seats or jobs in a desperately poor country. Reforming this system to award positions based on economic background would simultaneously help those individuals that truly need it and help break the cycle of caste-identification
4
I don't think affirmative action should be done away with; however, its implementation, and the conversation around it must change. Govt.s and people should take a page from the corporate world here.
Diversity and inclusion is not just about giving oppressed people a leg up. It's also an opportunity to bring in different view points to the table, so that the result, whatever it is, is better and more holistic. People come from different backgrounds, and these backgrounds are going to influence their approach to situations; and the more diverse the view points the better because you have more ways in which a situation can be managed.
Also, in cases where representation matters, such as government for example, having someone from every community is important so that every voice is heard.
Instead, the narrative always takes the form of giving options to people with what appears to be less merit, based on very narrow criteria, and the system somehow reinforces those complaints. It's problematic in multiple ways not least because the entrance exams or criteria itself are not all that great (it's not as if just because you get good grades in an entrance exam, you would be better at your job; you are not!). And, having lower-cut off for SC/ST somehow makes it seem as if they are not capable of getting a higher mark, and thus, they are less worthy, which is untrue and gives fodder to folks who support reverse casteism narrative.
Short version: Narrative should change.
Diversity and inclusion is not just about giving oppressed people a leg up. It's also an opportunity to bring in different view points to the table, so that the result, whatever it is, is better and more holistic. People come from different backgrounds, and these backgrounds are going to influence their approach to situations; and the more diverse the view points the better because you have more ways in which a situation can be managed.
Also, in cases where representation matters, such as government for example, having someone from every community is important so that every voice is heard.
Instead, the narrative always takes the form of giving options to people with what appears to be less merit, based on very narrow criteria, and the system somehow reinforces those complaints. It's problematic in multiple ways not least because the entrance exams or criteria itself are not all that great (it's not as if just because you get good grades in an entrance exam, you would be better at your job; you are not!). And, having lower-cut off for SC/ST somehow makes it seem as if they are not capable of getting a higher mark, and thus, they are less worthy, which is untrue and gives fodder to folks who support reverse casteism narrative.
Short version: Narrative should change.
India will never get rid of this ancient cultural artifact. It is an essential part of its beliefs with fate decided by past lives. It's the worst kind of hogwash and an excuse for exploitation and suppression. 'I am better because I am who I was born to be not what I have done. ' If you are on the upper level of this complex system of birth classification why would you give it up. Ask the Queen of England. It's essentially the same question. The only real escape is emigration.
8
Caste is the wrong term to describe India's social order. JATI is the right term, and it is as resilient as the founders intended it to be. The above article is basically one long lament about the resilience of the JATI system of social organization, one that has served South Asia well for many millenia.
4
http://swarajyamag.com/magazine/jati-as-social-horsepower
Caste is the wrong term to describe India's social order. JATI is the right term, and it is as resilient as the founders intended it to be. The above article by Rajeev Srinivasan on the utility of the JATI system is a strong counter-point to Ananya Vapeyi's take on it.
Caste is the wrong term to describe India's social order. JATI is the right term, and it is as resilient as the founders intended it to be. The above article by Rajeev Srinivasan on the utility of the JATI system is a strong counter-point to Ananya Vapeyi's take on it.
The most unfortunate thing that has been happening in India is that, after its independence from Britain and subsequent abolition of the caste system, rather than declare their identity, the lower castes have coopted the ways of the upper castes - in other words they have succumbed to soft-Aryanization to gain social acceptance. As long as the Brahmanical way of life is extolled and put on a pedestal, there is no hope for the removal of the caste system. As long as the intermediary between god and man is the brahmin, there will be a caste system in India.
6
Perhaps this is yet another example of dashed post-WW II hopes of a liberal/progressive social revolution.
1
Those who rightly say, that reservation has not achieved what it set out to do, also forget that the starting point is vastly different in India. The downtrodden have no hope as in rural India there is active discrimination still, and schools in those regions are pathetic!! The shackles of orthodoxy are profound and if you dare stand up to it then you are automatically labelled as a Commie, pseudo-secular, etc,. There is an immense churning going on and the outcome of societal unrest is awaited!
2
Caste is present in every society and can manifest in many forms. However, treating a person based on caste or race is inhuman and should have no place in a civilized society.
However, the case of Rohith Vemula is misguided as a caste issue. The real issue started when he and his supporters (belonging Ambedkar student association) were suspended because they violated the Indian constitutional right of "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" by raising slogans against the judicial system -- backbone of Indian government. This eventually led to his tragic suicide. It is unfortunate, but it is not correct to blame the Indian government or any individual for this incident.
Source: "Behind Rohith Vemula’s suicide: how Hyderabad Central University showed him the door". The Indian Express. indianexpress.com. 2016-01-19. Retrieved 2016-01-20.
However, the case of Rohith Vemula is misguided as a caste issue. The real issue started when he and his supporters (belonging Ambedkar student association) were suspended because they violated the Indian constitutional right of "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" by raising slogans against the judicial system -- backbone of Indian government. This eventually led to his tragic suicide. It is unfortunate, but it is not correct to blame the Indian government or any individual for this incident.
Source: "Behind Rohith Vemula’s suicide: how Hyderabad Central University showed him the door". The Indian Express. indianexpress.com. 2016-01-19. Retrieved 2016-01-20.
The lack of basic human compassion exhibited in many of these comments indicates how deeply the Caste system remains in "educated" Indians,
17
An insurmountable problem . 'Ground Down'? And many are; beaten in villages and taken advantage of. Police don't wan't to know. All hierarchy. This is a country that is 'governed' without a real common language'. Add basic religions to the pot. A nightmare for those that govern & the people.
4
Interesting that most of the people posting here with Indian names or Indian location seem to be dismissive of the caste discrimination or are blaming this young man. I'm guessing the posters are not Dalits.
15
How can you "annihilate caste" if every form you fill from birth to death, whether to obtain a ration of sugar or a seat in the Indian Institute of Technology asks for your caste?
Everyone in India is acutely aware of each other's caste. Except in rural hinterlands, Dalits are reasonably well organized to fight for their rights.
When I studied medicine in India, selected from the General category, there were children of Police commissioners and ministers who got entry in the category for oppressed Dalits!
Mr. Vemula likely suffered from depression. People commit suicide all the time due to lack of mental health help.
20 years ago, at the peak of Mandal agitation, I packed bags for the US because I felt my future kids would have no future in India. Ironically, now they are getting ready to be affected by the affirmative action here in the US!
Everyone in India is acutely aware of each other's caste. Except in rural hinterlands, Dalits are reasonably well organized to fight for their rights.
When I studied medicine in India, selected from the General category, there were children of Police commissioners and ministers who got entry in the category for oppressed Dalits!
Mr. Vemula likely suffered from depression. People commit suicide all the time due to lack of mental health help.
20 years ago, at the peak of Mandal agitation, I packed bags for the US because I felt my future kids would have no future in India. Ironically, now they are getting ready to be affected by the affirmative action here in the US!
6
As long as the caste system remains a political opportunity for the self serving politicians, caste system will not disappear, and, thus all the problems that come with it. Accepting this as a reality, it boils down to individual integrity to accept human equality.
8
The caste system is alive and well in NYC and surrounding areas and anywhere there is an Indian community.
12
Have them come to the USA....we should welcome them! Why on earth do we accept refugees from the Arab countries??? Knowing very well they hate us and just want to immigrate so they can live in our new divided country where accepting American traditions is frowned upon by the liberal establishment.
1
The whole issue is about BJP a pro-hindu party leading India after winning general elections. If it is a Christian ruled government is placed in Delhi neither NewYork Times will have any problem nor communist/left oriented journalists will have any complaint. For your information, Modi is from a Backward community like Rohit Vemula who is not a Dalit, who got that certificate through foul methods. Do you guys think this journalist is unaware of this fact? if she doesn't know she is not fit to report in such "prestigious" papers, however, if she knows but deliberately reporting wrong information then the paper should warn her. Anyway, why after 70 years of affirmitive action plan still reservations are needed in India? Think-over it and come up with useful solutions.
2
Except for the politicisation of castes and recourse to the identity politics by the self-serving political class to create separate vote banks the caste as the hereditary social category assigning fixed stations of life to the individual and group has long ceased to be a defining feature of social interaction. What's being witnessed as the caste wars on the university campuses and public arena is nothing but the shameless power play through caste and communal mobilisation by the political parties and leaders, given a new impetus by the present ruling dispensation in Delhi.
5
If the people stop embracing the caste system it will evaporate into nothingness. Every single person must in their own heart, in their own mind, and at the top of their lungs shout, "NO MORE!" and be done with it.
18
Totally agree. The same can be said about racism, sexism and a host of other biases in the United States. Americans should say "NO MORE!" to the inherent sins that are the essence of the United States. Maybe it would be an example for India.
Once, in India, I gave a presentation about the life of Gandhi to a class. During the presentation, I quoted Gandhi's words, "I'd rather that Hinduism died than that untouchability lived." After the presentation, one of the school's teachers came to me and said: "Gandhi should not have said that." This was fifty years ago.
60
The caste problem is the master craft of Congress, which ruled India for the maximum part of post-independence era, and they and other provincial parities including the communists, have been using the caste card during elections. The priest in the picture, I can bet, is as poor, if not poorer than the boy who is seen grooming the by-lane. There is no reason to eulogize Vemula, who had been fighting for the Kashmir terrorists. His death by suicide is definitely unfortunate. In a country with billion population with more than 90% below the line of abject poverty, thousands die daily from lack of treatment, malnutrition and dowry related causes. Ananya should try to pen those maladies, which pervade the entire country.
6
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Dalits face discrimination everywhere and in every way, from being denied apartment rentals, to private-sector jobs, to marriage prohibitions. Stop blaming political parties and look to society. In the same way that you can't legislate equality and positive side, as Ambedkar tried with the constitution, you can't presume that Congress-based caste politics are solely to blame for discrimination's perpetuation!
9
now its only legal to discriminate based on gender, look how far weve come
Reservation of jobs and college admissions should be taken out completely and replaced with equal opportunity admission and job recruiting. It has skewed efficiency and resulted in dumbing down of the whole nation
9
Doing so would further expose the overt discrimination that Dalits face all the time, even with these protections in place.
32
I agree with Isaac, already something like 40% of entrants into doctors programs are paid for. The wealthy pay between $25,000 and $500,000 for a place on a course, without reservation I am sure that the numbers of people gaining entry through back handers would increase. It at least explains why there is so much corruption in healthcare in India, with all these Doctors trying to claw back all the money they spent buying their qualifications. Many westerners have made the mistake of trying to take concepts from their culture and plant them into a culture that is a as bent and corrupt as Indias and failed miserably. India needs to tackle its corruption problem first, but with social mobility declining in most western nations, I am unsure what model India would use to beat their own inequality, as the stigma of inequality is firmly linked to peoples family names.
you are ignorant about the quotas and preferential treatment meted out to dalits and those claiming to be dalits. Ironic that the same people critical and ignorant about Affirmative action in India will be the first to cry foul for Affirmative action in place for Black Americans
The premise of the entire article is flawed. Rohith Vemula has been quoted by multiple sources as being Dalit Christian, and was using caste based affirmative action to his benefit.
The last I checked, Christianity is allegedly above caste. Dalit Christians are merely misusing affirmative action to benefit them, because of the inconvenient reality that their conversion didn't bring them the benefits the Christians claimed it would.
I'm also looking forward to the New York Times writing about The Enduring Curse of White Privilege. It would be an excellent read.
The last I checked, Christianity is allegedly above caste. Dalit Christians are merely misusing affirmative action to benefit them, because of the inconvenient reality that their conversion didn't bring them the benefits the Christians claimed it would.
I'm also looking forward to the New York Times writing about The Enduring Curse of White Privilege. It would be an excellent read.
17
The premise of the article is the persistence of discrimination against Dalits, despite a supposedly changing India. That is very clear in this article and not wrong in any way.
73
Did you actually read the article? He did not use caste-based affirmative action at all: "Mr. Vemula had gained admission to the University of Hyderabad in the general, nonreserved category."
10
Rohith Vermula wasn't even a dalit and his death is being used as a propaganda tool. Medical help was being kept and no one was let near the body to see if he could have been saved. Armchair pundits reading an article by someone with an axe to grind can pontificate all they want and feel better by slamming India and Hindus with no full disclosure of the facts. perhaps they should look closer to home and see how much better things are for the minorities at home.
How can India be called a "Democracy" until they totally eliminate the caste system? India is a very sad farce.
49
Same like USA! Have you not read all the protests about 'black lives matter'? How many poor blacks are being gunned down in USA? As for India- I could not get a job with gold medals at university level because 30% reservations of all jobs were given to lower caste people. Now, the quota is up to 40% for these people (Dalits, etc.). What can non-Dalits do? Social injustice is in every country, but in India, the missionaries exploit the situation for conversion into a bad cult.
20
India became a democratic state only 60 years ago. Democracy is not just about building institutions which deliver equal rights and access but also about behavioral and attitudinal change, which takes time. US took more than 150 years to grant equal voting rights, the recent Trump phenomenon shows how many Americans still revere white supremacist leaders and racist bigots !
Further while the caste discrimination is illegal and not a prominent factors in urban centers where people lead anonymous lives. Eliminating caste system would affect the basic fabric of Hinduism. Caste System started as basic division of labor into warriors, priests, merchants and other workers. The inequality and evils of untouchability appeared later with years of conquest and foreign rule. They wanted to assimilate in the Hindu framework while maintaining their superior status.
Even Gandhi who was quoted by the author wasn't against elimination of caste system. Ambedkar was a staunch critic of Gandhi and Hinduism. He converted to Buddhism later in his life.
Ironically communities in India are agitating so that the government recognize them as backward classes. The system of reservation has caused each caste to strongly resist any change to their caste identity. So while people want Indians to do away with the system entirely nobody in the country wants to do away with it !
Further while the caste discrimination is illegal and not a prominent factors in urban centers where people lead anonymous lives. Eliminating caste system would affect the basic fabric of Hinduism. Caste System started as basic division of labor into warriors, priests, merchants and other workers. The inequality and evils of untouchability appeared later with years of conquest and foreign rule. They wanted to assimilate in the Hindu framework while maintaining their superior status.
Even Gandhi who was quoted by the author wasn't against elimination of caste system. Ambedkar was a staunch critic of Gandhi and Hinduism. He converted to Buddhism later in his life.
Ironically communities in India are agitating so that the government recognize them as backward classes. The system of reservation has caused each caste to strongly resist any change to their caste identity. So while people want Indians to do away with the system entirely nobody in the country wants to do away with it !
1
You are wrong.Please pickup any two Indian with you I can tell you ,you can not find their cast until they tell you.It is simple only worth can survive in the world.
In general, people know which caste one is from on basis of one's name. Why didn't Mr. Vemula just change his surname to a higher-caste surname? A Brahmin surname like "Joshi" could have saved his life. He might have been born a Dalit but he didn't have to live like one.
I will never understand the Dalits' propensity to keep their surnames and their Dalit identities; these identities are an artificial construct of the caste system and nobody was stopping them from changing their identities if they wanted to. Unlike a black person in the United States who cannot transform into a white person, a Dalit could transform himself into a Brahmin through a simple name change.
I will never understand the Dalits' propensity to keep their surnames and their Dalit identities; these identities are an artificial construct of the caste system and nobody was stopping them from changing their identities if they wanted to. Unlike a black person in the United States who cannot transform into a white person, a Dalit could transform himself into a Brahmin through a simple name change.
5
Why should Dalits have to adjust, rename themselves? What did they do to deserve the derision other castes foist on them?
53
Maybe you're the type of person who thinks of surnames as meaning nothing or who easily discards pieces of your identity for economically or politically expedient reasons but not everyone is like that.
Believe it or not, some people are PROUD of their origins and wear them like a badge of honor, no matter what society thinks. There have been moments in my life when my mother has advised me, especially as a child, to not tell people I grew up in a single parent household, on welfare at times, with English as a second language. She was afraid people would look down on me or treat me badly because of my background. Certainly, I have relatives who lie about their origins.
But me? While I don't advertise it, if people ask me or in certain contexts, I tell the truth. First, I don't care that much what they think and don't need their approval really. But, secondly and more importantly, I want to challenge their prejudices/ ideas about what a poor person growing up in a single parent household speaking another language looks/ acts like. People often presume I grew up in wealthier or more advantaged circumstances because of my position today. When I talk about growing up on welfare, they listen.
I suspect Mr. Vemula felt similarly.
Believe it or not, some people are PROUD of their origins and wear them like a badge of honor, no matter what society thinks. There have been moments in my life when my mother has advised me, especially as a child, to not tell people I grew up in a single parent household, on welfare at times, with English as a second language. She was afraid people would look down on me or treat me badly because of my background. Certainly, I have relatives who lie about their origins.
But me? While I don't advertise it, if people ask me or in certain contexts, I tell the truth. First, I don't care that much what they think and don't need their approval really. But, secondly and more importantly, I want to challenge their prejudices/ ideas about what a poor person growing up in a single parent household speaking another language looks/ acts like. People often presume I grew up in wealthier or more advantaged circumstances because of my position today. When I talk about growing up on welfare, they listen.
I suspect Mr. Vemula felt similarly.
6
Why did German Americans change their names in the US after world war II ? Same reason. If you can take the heat in keeping your identity there is no need to do so, Easier to change names than change skin color.
The affirmative action program for the lower castes in India should be seen in the context of its exploding billion plus population, widespread poverty, limited opportunities for the disenfranchised and poor, endemic political and economic corruption, and religious strife. It is no wonder that other communities are now eyeing the golden pot of education and government job reservation and striving to be included in the list of Other Backward Classes. With political parties always willing to exploit this fiery issue to win over the vote banks, there are no easy solutions to this problem.
17
Except for being born under a religion that has almost always mean being "different" perhaps I have no right to speak on this subject. But I find the entire discussion absurd and abhorrent. We can seek understanding of the fundaments of our universe, but we can't get past the imbecility of discriminating against other members of our species for differences in skin tone, circumstances of birth, or religion. Today, when we face issues that require us to act as a single species if we're to continue to thrive, we still fight over imaginary differences and imaginary friends.
The only wish, the only solace, would be if Mr. Vemula's death might have the effect of change.
The only wish, the only solace, would be if Mr. Vemula's death might have the effect of change.
46
Mr. Markes:
It's an honor to read your words. Most comments have been reprehensible in excusing man's inhumanity to man.
It's an honor to read your words. Most comments have been reprehensible in excusing man's inhumanity to man.
1
Dalit are 30% as per Census India; They can take their 30% Caste Share Of Land from India and go build their own DALIT nation as per British Prime Minister Ramsay Macdonald's "Communal Award";
goo.gl/NFK0A
goo.gl/NFK0A
India has such incredible potential, potential that keeps being held back by unnecessary social rigidity and prejudices. Of course India is not unique in this. But when we compare China and India, it is clear that China has unlocked human potential in a way that India has not, in large part by breaking down traditional class barriers and enabling women to fully join the workforce. (I am not saying all is rosy in China. Breaking down those barriers was violent, destroyed traditional cultures, upended society, and of course Chinese women still have a far from equal position in society.)
13
Indians aren't the only ones who struggle with the concept of equality for all yet we have been a democracy for over 200 years. Laws can be changed quickly as can behavior. Attitudes not so much.
20
They make it seem like the west is better educated and not prone to such .. then they have field days about luck of sperm candidates and their arm girls like william and Kate.. No class seperation is just fine in the west.. Its condoned via the poor dont have the money to complain or revolt vs the other poor paid by the establishment to police them.. .. Wow.. same as India..
4
India is afflicted with a defective and evil culture that dooms that nation to self-induced failure. We should take a lesson as we allow our own income and opportunity gaps, fostered by racism and classism, to widen.
23
The culture is not evil or defective. Human beings are defective and evil.
Hindu's did not commit genocide to steal continents in the name of God.
Hindu's did not persecute Jews for 2,000 years.
Hindus did not have a spanish inquisition or portuguese inquisition.
Hindu's did not commit Jihad and kill millions of people for plunder and rape in the name of God and on and on.
Look at your own background before casting stones. If after 1,000 years of subjugation, starvation killing millions while those who 'should be turning the other cheek' looked on, Casteism is all that you can lay at the feet of Hinduism, even though it's a warped version engineered to divide the society, then other countries have a much better 'qualification' to be defective and evil.
Hindu's did not commit genocide to steal continents in the name of God.
Hindu's did not persecute Jews for 2,000 years.
Hindus did not have a spanish inquisition or portuguese inquisition.
Hindu's did not commit Jihad and kill millions of people for plunder and rape in the name of God and on and on.
Look at your own background before casting stones. If after 1,000 years of subjugation, starvation killing millions while those who 'should be turning the other cheek' looked on, Casteism is all that you can lay at the feet of Hinduism, even though it's a warped version engineered to divide the society, then other countries have a much better 'qualification' to be defective and evil.
Vote for Modi and BJP so that this grand tradition can be perpetuated and further strengthened. Like US is the land of the 1% and the Republicans, India is the land of the Bahamians and BJP.
9
Bahamians!!LOL
1
This is factually untrue and has no basis in fact. Brahmins are the poorest demographic in India. Be honest and say you support the congress opposition which has played caste and religious politics for the last 60 years to retain power. Bah. balderdash and codswallop.
Privileged classes are seldom even willing to acknowledge their privilege. It's common for them to justify their social status by asserting cultural superiority or achievement, never acknowledging what the less privileged have to overcome to achieve that which is basically given to the privileged.
It's true in India and it's true here. While there are good people everywhere, the privileged classes, as a whole, do not willingly give up that privilege.
It's true in India and it's true here. While there are good people everywhere, the privileged classes, as a whole, do not willingly give up that privilege.
41
Looks like Mr. Vemula was doing everything except working on his Ph.D. Hardly any wonder he lost his scholarship.
10
What a cruel and illogical conclusion to jump to. There is nothing in the article that says anything about how much or how hard he worked on his PhD, what his grades were, or what his research supervisor thought of him.
From the article, the guy sounds brilliant and lost his stipend/ accommodations because of being too politically outspoken. Maybe *you* aren't able to work on your college degree and lead a revolution at the same time but other can and have. You must be terribly young/ naive to believe that things can't be taken away from you if you challenge the status quo.
From the article, the guy sounds brilliant and lost his stipend/ accommodations because of being too politically outspoken. Maybe *you* aren't able to work on your college degree and lead a revolution at the same time but other can and have. You must be terribly young/ naive to believe that things can't be taken away from you if you challenge the status quo.
3
Could you point out the place in the column that indicated to you that "Mr. Vemula was doing everything except working on his Ph.D." The part I saw was that he was "a brilliant scholar" with no indication that he was unable to continue his scholarly work while participating as an activist.
1
Now there's a comment without pity or perspective or, for that matter, without logic. Studying for your Ph.D. forbids additional and relevant interests?
The blame should be shared equally by all political parties. Congress which ruled India for 50+ years are the biggest abuser of the system. They treat minorities as vote bank and only happy with the status quo. The ruling party is not without faults. They allow fringe elements to thrive and does not reign in violent group who tarnish the image of Hinduism with their idiotic and stupid moves. The less said about the left the better. The biggest culprit are the educated and intelligent people and the media which caters to both left as well as the right. For me the biggest worry is absence of Moderate groups.
3
We need to stop simply blaming the political parties, even if they contribute to the problem, and acknowledge the everyday social stigma that Dalits face from every direction.
22
And you would know, how? it's such a stigma that other groups in India want to be classified as backward class to get on the bandwagon of quotas and affirmative action.
“The value of a man was reduced to his immediate identity and nearest possibility. To a vote. To a number. To a thing. Never was a man treated as a mind.”
I hope Rohith's words will live on--they are words to remember not just under the BJP, or India, or Asia. They for all those in the rejected groups, classes, races, ethnicities, castes around the world. The human lives circumscribed by the power of words and fear.
My heart goes out to his family.
I hope Rohith's words will live on--they are words to remember not just under the BJP, or India, or Asia. They for all those in the rejected groups, classes, races, ethnicities, castes around the world. The human lives circumscribed by the power of words and fear.
My heart goes out to his family.
44
Perhaps we should change the "man" to "person" though?
Let's remember that within EVERY caste division, the male is placed as superior to a female within that caste division. I regret Rohith's suicide, but as a Dalit male he still had it better than any female Dalit. Better that he would have lived to work for their equality, even if only within the Dalit caste.
Let's remember that within EVERY caste division, the male is placed as superior to a female within that caste division. I regret Rohith's suicide, but as a Dalit male he still had it better than any female Dalit. Better that he would have lived to work for their equality, even if only within the Dalit caste.
2
My heart breaks for the young man's mother and the rest of his family--they must have felt (however briefly) that they had indeed succeeded in doing everything they could to make sure that at least he would be able to live a life of dignity.
BJP, Congress, et al--you have failed this young man as well as millions of others like him.
BJP, Congress, et al--you have failed this young man as well as millions of others like him.
32
This guy could have simply fulfilled his mother's dream by not taking his own life. he could've contributed towards his family/nation, has he stuck to his studies and not in Violence, assault on other students. He must be leading a good life had he not enrolled as foot soldiers of political goons, has he not supported terrorists, organized programs to support perpetrator sof the Biggest Urban terror attack in the world (Yakub menon was found guilty by SC for '92 ombay Blasts). Dont sympathize with foolish, terrorist supporters. Can you organize a memorial service for Osama Bin laden in a US university and still claim to be downtrodden victim of the system?
1
This is what happens when you judge people as members of a group, not as individuals.
20
Pending a judiciary committee investigation and other such things these assertions sound premature and baseless. Unworthy of a report in NYT. Unless social sciences have fallen to mere emotional sloganeering. L
4
Acknowledge the larger issue here: Dalits still have a very tough time throughout India. And certainly in Telangana, as you should know, Malas and Madigas are no exception: they face discrimination every day.
23
Brahmin are BEGGARS by Birth; I've seen millions/generations of Brahmin begging/living on alms in Temples for past ~2000 years in India;
To understand it depends on how deeply one believes in the principles of reincarnation.
4
Two penny-worth reporters and academics trying to win a dollar here and a dollar there, or a trip to the US write such nonsense. Would a so-called Dalit, when in reality we see now is not a Dalit but the mother put him as a Dalit to get the undue benefits ensuing to such categories, and one who extolled the Terrorist hanged in Indian, Memen, be allowed in this country to get such nonsensical publicity? Would someone here, not a Black but gaining benefits as a Black through fraudulently identifying as one, extolling Osama Bin et al get the same kind of such motivated adulation from someone appearing to be rather educated and articulated, of course for a purpose? We have had too many of these "traders" of manipulated and designed writings trying to win a crumb! Best of luck in your pursuit! Honesty is hard to inculcate, but in the long-term worth an effort!
adulat
adulat
5
So you are denying a real problem of prejudice and discrimination against Dalits India-wide just because of the issues of this one situation. You are wrong. There is a real problem in India for Dalits. And this is an important moment to acknowledge it.
27
The critical issue that should be analysed by any political or social scientist today in these context is to look into the evolving nexus of dalits joining forces with anti nationals. At least this is what appears for JNU and UoH events. Are dalits going to uplift themselves by joining anti-national elements? That is to accept terrorists as their ideals? The issue here is how to end caste discrimination. Of course we all know that as long as reservation is on, that is not going to happen. People will talk about it covertly or overtly and then one can not shout saying that ' look I have come here through reservation but you cant say that?" This is the issue in Indian universities where students and professors come through reservation and then someone says that, someone merely points out that. Can that stop without throwing away reservation? Social scientists should analyze these current events more holistically and not with a biased approach that does not look any different from what comes from media anchors or other such non-academic platforms.
1
Exactly what "undue benefits" are you referring to? The article states that "Mr. Vemula had gained admission to the University of Hyderabad in the general, nonreserved category". Your comment doesn't make any sense.
The Caste system is Hinduism. It is a tautology. It can never be eradicated in India without doing away with Hinduism altogether and that is just never going to happen. Talented lower caste people are in a sense doomed to be looked down upon by anyone in a higher caste, no matter how debased the higher caste,person is. That is what makes India the biggest democratic farce of a nation it is.
50
There are lot a of talented upper caste people without jobs- right now, I have a friend in Vellore with a professional degree and a Ph.D. from USA who is not given a job at the Christian Medical College, because he is not a Christian! You think in USA, people do not discriminate people based on skin color? Just see how many poor black people are killed by the police. Enough preaching from you.
1
This is complete nonsense. Caste is an identity marker among many others such as language group and region of origin.
What is keeping caste identity alive in India at least in the metros is the affirmative action system. I am Hindu, born and raised in India. My first brush with caste was when I had to apply for college. That was over 25 years ago. Most of my friends are Hindu and I never knew their castes - once again I only discovered if they belonged to the 'reserved category' at the time of college admission. My nieces and nephews have married outside of the language community and I have personally no idea what castes their spouses belong to.
What is keeping caste identity alive in India at least in the metros is the affirmative action system. I am Hindu, born and raised in India. My first brush with caste was when I had to apply for college. That was over 25 years ago. Most of my friends are Hindu and I never knew their castes - once again I only discovered if they belonged to the 'reserved category' at the time of college admission. My nieces and nephews have married outside of the language community and I have personally no idea what castes their spouses belong to.
1
Rose, what do you mean by 'doing away with hinduism'? Are you calling for elimination of Hindus or their conversion to another religion? Let me make a similar statement - 'Zionism cannot be eradicated in Israel without doing away with Judaism'. Would the esteemed NYTimes allow a comment similar to mine to be published?
About two weeks ago, Sugata Bose (professor at Harvard and an MP in India) spoke about this and other recent cases in the Indian Parliament. I wish he as well as Ananya Vajpeyi would write about the rise (or, perhaps not) in such cases under the present BJP governance in India.
15
Yes only talk about d present 1 years old regime but not of d 1 that not ruled but governed Independent India for more than half a century! Also ask Harvard Professor Mr. Bose if he has guts to write or give a speech on the Political party he represents as an MP of i.e. Trinamol Congress's minority party functionaries / members Explosives Manufacturing capability.
His frustration is about discrimination of minorities, freedom of terrorists, freedom of Kashmir, though he happens to be a dalit. His was a political cause, good or bad. It has nothing to do with Modi government. The Congress and left parties are muddling it though the Congress , which has ruled India for more than sixty years, is claiming no responsibility.The Congress should be ashamed of it, particularly its leaders.The media are not fair and are also hypocrites.
8
Dalits feel excluded by the Modi government. So it is a political issue as well social. There is no getting around it. They feel the intolerance that is everywhere now at the political level, fostered by the BJP. To deny BJP complicity in ongoing Dalit travails is to deny Dalits an opportunity to make things better right now in a BJP-sponsored environment where the government needs to be setting the right tone but is not.
8
More nonsense. The Modi government was voted in by Dalits as well as the rest of Indian Society.
Modi is from an 'other backward class' himself. What intolerence?
Seems like politically motivated trolling.
Stopping anti Hindu discrimination is not intolerence.
What is intolerant is 60 years of discrimination against the Majority whilst playing vote bank politics using caste and religion.
I guess by 'setting the right tone' for you would mean a continuation of the vote banks and Affirmative action instead of merit and Hindus accepting intolerance towards themselves?
Not going to happen. increasing literacy and delivery of better governance by the BJP is going to show up demagogues with nothing more constructive to bring to the table.
Modi is from an 'other backward class' himself. What intolerence?
Seems like politically motivated trolling.
Stopping anti Hindu discrimination is not intolerence.
What is intolerant is 60 years of discrimination against the Majority whilst playing vote bank politics using caste and religion.
I guess by 'setting the right tone' for you would mean a continuation of the vote banks and Affirmative action instead of merit and Hindus accepting intolerance towards themselves?
Not going to happen. increasing literacy and delivery of better governance by the BJP is going to show up demagogues with nothing more constructive to bring to the table.
1
Hinduism and its external application, the caste system, are as predictable and inherent to India as slabs of steak, soulless car-friendly exurbs, and urban invisible zones are to America. Government policy as conceived by some idealistic and energetic individuals can accomplish some marginal changes, but the real nut to crack lies much deeper.
The lasting work begins in finding and bringing into the sunlight these most fundamental ideas of a society, those a priori definitions of reality and value on which all else is constructed. This is the Frame that George Lakoff has so brilliantly outlined for us to make use of. But this entire process of digging out, sorting, decoding, and modifying simply reeks of complexity and inconvenience for those "above the water line." Why on earth would they/we bother? As long as God's in his heaven, all's right with the world.
Until it isn't. And then things get complicated, and "the good old days" start to slip away. Those individuals who own privilege in a given place and time MUST deserve it, and the world is fair and just, of course. So when those fundamental ideas begin to shift around in the idea landscape, fear follows. As it would.
This is a story as old as humankind. Different chapter, same book. Same us. Culture makes most things invisible; that's part of its job. Take a look.