I think Brexit is good in principle and I understand the frustrations the British people have with the EU. My concern is that I don't think the gain in sovereignty will necessarily lead to a country with more power or a better economy. A free trade agreement is different than having access to a common market, and it will take some time to negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU. It is unclear if the new agreement would exclude freedom of movement or paying into the union. Britain would want to maintain trade with its nearest neighbors, where half of its exports go. It is such a natural market You maybe able to get free trade agreements with China, India, Canada, and US, but again this is not the same as having access to a common market with 500 million people. Services would be excluded for one, and they are a big component of the UK economy.. I am also uncertain of what would happen to the 2 million plus Brits living in the EU. The ones currently there would likely be able to stay, but the process could get messy in the future. Finally I think Britain really asserts its power on the global stage when it can force its will over the rest of Europe and get it to tackle the biggest challenges facing the world today.
3
What is missing from many of these comments and from much of the Brexit discussion is the European ideal, that through cooperation, the total can be more than the sum of its parts. It's the same ideal in the United States, where it is also threatened by selfishness. Spouses in a good marriage do not keep score.. Their families can contribute more than two people ever could.
BRITAIN Is like the hapless married man who tells his wife that he's going to leave her for another woman, after they have fashioned a prenuptial agreement which gives him very favorable terms. Then he dithers back and forth. Go to the mistress completely? Divide his time between the wife and mistress? Stay with the wife and end with the mistress? With all the shilly shallying he will fritter away the any money he had amassed, spending it on lawyers and rancorous negotiations. Not implying anything about the status of Cameron's supposed marital bliss, the guy in the story ends up being a stooge for the shark lawyers who cry all the way to the bank. The husband, wife and mistress all end up not only miserable but poor into the bargain. So Cameron, go have your Brexit for breakfast and get the ball rolling. How many millions of lives will be ruined if his circus act comprised of smoke and mirrors is shown to be the sham that it is. There's still time to pull back from the cliff. I'd like to think that enough Brits have, as the Scots did, the common sense to vote down Cameron's harebrained plan so the country can begin building upon the concessions he's gotten from the EU. In my opinion that's the logical, sensible thing to do. Problem is it's not sexy.
4
The European Union was a noble idea poorly executed. Its main accomplishment has been to make war between its members unthinkable. It is the economic disparity between members that combined with nationalistic fervor is making it unworkable. Faced with a serious external crisis, the flood of refugees running away from failed states, it has been unable to come up with a common policy to address it. Britain's exit together with the illiberal governments now emerging in former communist parties may lead to a restructure to make it a more manageable smaller union. The union will persist as long as the critical linchpins, France and Germany, keep collaborating.
4
I am an advocate of European Union in the States United
1
Oh and for those predicting that Scotland will up and "leave" the moment the UK votes exit the EU, not only has the price of their one asset, oil, plunged, but Scotland's deficit is now twice the size of England's. Scotland won't be giving up the safety of the huge subsidies it gets from the rest of the UK any time soon.
2
I think you're right, Elizabeth, the Scots would be crazy to leave the UK, but never underestimate people's ability to cut off their noses to spite their faces. The last referendum was close, and since then the SNP has tightened its grip north of the border, almost completely obliterating the Labour Party. There's a colossal amount of wishful thinking in the SNP, and they're assuming that, on independence, they'll be admitted into the EU right away, instead of having to wait their turn, thus getting from the EU what they lose from London. Ain't gonna happen - the Spanish, knowing that the Catalans and the Basques are watching all this with great interest, will block any attempt by the Jocks to jump the queue.
If the Brits want out, let them. It is fair for the voters to decide. If enough racists, bigots, flat earthers, climate change deniers, atavists, and other blockheads carry the day, it will be unfortunate for the British, but a good day for the EU and its citizens.
Sure, a Brexit would destabilize world markets for a while, but they will recover soon as financial superpowers take over. It has been decades since London did anything to justify the rake offs it got from being a major clearing house. Even with former colonies tossing the old lady a bone, "The City" will shrink in significance. And why not? What value has it provided to the world in the last few decades? It's not that London's bankers are evil (any more than other bankers), it's just that the country doesn't have the heft to be of help stabilizing the world system.
As I pray my fellow the Americans won't be stupid enough to vote in the foul-mouthed, narcissistic, chauvinistic, Mussolini-quoting Donald Trump, I pray our British Cousins will reject their equivalents.
We are blood cousins, after all and as cranky and eccentric as some of them are we love them. Good luck, John Bull.
Sure, a Brexit would destabilize world markets for a while, but they will recover soon as financial superpowers take over. It has been decades since London did anything to justify the rake offs it got from being a major clearing house. Even with former colonies tossing the old lady a bone, "The City" will shrink in significance. And why not? What value has it provided to the world in the last few decades? It's not that London's bankers are evil (any more than other bankers), it's just that the country doesn't have the heft to be of help stabilizing the world system.
As I pray my fellow the Americans won't be stupid enough to vote in the foul-mouthed, narcissistic, chauvinistic, Mussolini-quoting Donald Trump, I pray our British Cousins will reject their equivalents.
We are blood cousins, after all and as cranky and eccentric as some of them are we love them. Good luck, John Bull.
3
Shades of pre-WWll. Like America, Britain seems to be looking more inward.
Well, that is one way to look at it - perhaps it doesn't fancy being sold to Turkey to save Angela Merkel's and Donald Tusk's political careers, or its working-class structure further decimated by huge influxes of cheap labour.
2
It is unusual for pro-EU supporters to admit that the aim of the EU is to become a federal superstate. They usually avoid tackling the issue and focus instead on the loss of trade and British prestige. If Britain becomes just a cog in a 28 member organization, run by Berlin and Paris, it is not clear how Britain's status in the world is improved. Britain has few allies in the EU and it is usually ignored.
However, if Cameron really has negotiated an opt-out whereby Britain can resist further EU integration and it is allowed to trade freely with the EU, that might work. However, Boris Johnson is skeptical about the claims made by Cameron for the deal.
However, if Cameron really has negotiated an opt-out whereby Britain can resist further EU integration and it is allowed to trade freely with the EU, that might work. However, Boris Johnson is skeptical about the claims made by Cameron for the deal.
1
I support the idea of the European Community and its Union against the divisiveness in Europe which has cost the world dearly for the past three centuries at least.
At that is why in this referendum, I support Britain leaving. They and their corrupt barely regulated banking sector, Britain's constant carping and seeking special exemptions are a drag and a distraction to Europe. Britain delights in upsetting apple carts and is constantly whining, half in and half out.
Better for Europe if they and their negativity are our for good.
At that is why in this referendum, I support Britain leaving. They and their corrupt barely regulated banking sector, Britain's constant carping and seeking special exemptions are a drag and a distraction to Europe. Britain delights in upsetting apple carts and is constantly whining, half in and half out.
Better for Europe if they and their negativity are our for good.
6
Yes, and their billions in dues with them.
After all, that borderline criminal deal with Turkey that Merkel got the EU into going to impact Canada, is it?
After all, that borderline criminal deal with Turkey that Merkel got the EU into going to impact Canada, is it?
1
"The death of Western leadership" is exactly what is unfolding before our eyes, and there is little the elite and their supporters can do about it. The writing is now clearly on the wall.
5
I am a supporter of Britain staying in the EU for all the reasons given by Matthew d'Ancona, and also because 'Brexit' will be a strategic blunder in countering pernicious influences already abroad in the world.
One might counter this by saying that the the EU is demonstrably not just a lame but a witless, headless duck (Greece, ISIS, Putin, the unprecedented migrant/refugee crisis). But this is precisely the point: the UK in the EU has a leadership opportunity and could forge a more effective alliance to counter modern villains
One might counter this by saying that the the EU is demonstrably not just a lame but a witless, headless duck (Greece, ISIS, Putin, the unprecedented migrant/refugee crisis). But this is precisely the point: the UK in the EU has a leadership opportunity and could forge a more effective alliance to counter modern villains
Cameron may not deserve it but but he will be hailed by future generations as the leader who gave sovereignty back to its people. He only agreed to the referendum to win an election, he tried and failed to negotiate a better deal with the EU and he campaigned against Brexit but history will remember him and give him all the credit for saving his country.
2
Cameron is no more a "Eurosceptic" than Emperor of China. He would have campaigned to stay IN, as one wag on a British blog said, if Germany sent U-boats into the Dover Strait. His career is littered with empty, and predictably later broken promises to voters. He is in office due to the follies of the Labour opposition party, not his own record and competence.
This is only about Big Money Interests. The economic benefits of EU membership haven't gone to ordinary workers but to the City (Britain's Wall Street in London), the investor class, and company owners. Brussels is becoming more corrupt by the month.
After watching the incompetence the EU demonstrated with Greece (who should never have been let in), the Eurozone economy, and most recently its miserable performance to the migrant crisis, which the EU knew for two years was shaping up yet still failed to secure its external borders, why would any sensible voter not vote to LEAVE?
In addition to the appalling, craven (and impractical and probably likely to fail) deal it is making with Turkey, virtually selling its "core" values out to save Schengen and Merkel's political career, the EU has admitted that it has "tabled" legislation for AFTER the referendum that will infuriate Britons: expanded guidelines on the free movement of workers, a bigger budget, and accession to the ECHR which will further render national legal sovereignty of member states moot-everything Britons don't want.
Brits are being played like violins.
This is only about Big Money Interests. The economic benefits of EU membership haven't gone to ordinary workers but to the City (Britain's Wall Street in London), the investor class, and company owners. Brussels is becoming more corrupt by the month.
After watching the incompetence the EU demonstrated with Greece (who should never have been let in), the Eurozone economy, and most recently its miserable performance to the migrant crisis, which the EU knew for two years was shaping up yet still failed to secure its external borders, why would any sensible voter not vote to LEAVE?
In addition to the appalling, craven (and impractical and probably likely to fail) deal it is making with Turkey, virtually selling its "core" values out to save Schengen and Merkel's political career, the EU has admitted that it has "tabled" legislation for AFTER the referendum that will infuriate Britons: expanded guidelines on the free movement of workers, a bigger budget, and accession to the ECHR which will further render national legal sovereignty of member states moot-everything Britons don't want.
Brits are being played like violins.
2
Mr. Cameron’s timing is terrible. He wanted to have the negotiations with EU right in the middle of the worst crisis EU has encountered. He should know that even in politics you need friends, I don’t think he has many left in the EU.
Anyway, if the Brits want to leave, let them leave. Cameron made his own bed, so sleep in it - it may be a little uncomfortable.
Anyway, if the Brits want to leave, let them leave. Cameron made his own bed, so sleep in it - it may be a little uncomfortable.
2
This article underestimates the importance and strength of the American-UK special relationship. Very likely a Brexit will eventually result in UK entering an economic deal similar to US-Canada, which in turn would calm down the Scots a bit.
In the end, forging a UK-Canada-US free trade bloc with easy (tho not fully open) movement of labor may be the best thing that ever happened to UK in a while.
In the end, forging a UK-Canada-US free trade bloc with easy (tho not fully open) movement of labor may be the best thing that ever happened to UK in a while.
4
Many people assume that the EU is "ruled" by the top one, two, or three dominant economic powers. I would ask that everyone reconsider how much this is true. The EU has currently 28 member countries, and a number of other countries are going through a process of qualifying. As many point out, Brussels seems to have already some administrative powers. They report to all the states, not just Germany, France, and Great Britain. This is different from the past, when international affairs were dictated by military might.
It is too easy for citizens of England, France, and Germany to underestimate the present and future power and influence of the countries east of Berlin, all the way to Asia.
It is too easy for citizens of England, France, and Germany to underestimate the present and future power and influence of the countries east of Berlin, all the way to Asia.
1
What will happen to the UK in the wake of its exit from the EU is easy to foresee. First, Scotland will see no reason to remain in the UK and will declare independence. Scotland will then (paradoxically perhaps to some) turn around and rejoin the EU as a separate nation. Rump England (Wales attached) then stagnates economically and finds itself in twenty or thirty years standing on Europe's doorstep like a prodigal child, begging for for readmission under much less favorable terms. Go for it, you Brits. There isn't nearly enough chaos in the world already.
4
Imagine as a US citizen that your country is part of a vast, bloated, undemocratic institution whose finances haven't even been audited in decades. This, say Pan American Union, makes something like 75% of your laws. Would you vote to leave if you got the chance?
The union is already there. It is called the US of A. Slave holder states joined with Quaker states, industrial powerhouses with rural cotton states, etc. And all the problems you cite have appeared in this union including a civil war. Don't need to imagine a Pan American union on top.
Brexit was an important and divisive topic long before the current immigration started. Brexit is not an immigration problem, not a solution to immigration problems.
Immigration is driven by the destruction of the Middle East, pushed since Bush by the US. To stop this immigration flood, stop the destruction of their homes. Many here now would go home, and those coming would fall off to what it once was, a mere trickle.
Immigration resonates as an issue in the US because it has a misleading, superficial similarity to American problems on its southern border.
It has heat in Britain as a topic of the moment, but the topic predates immigration, and the real economic and security concerns about Brexit have little to do with immigration from the Middle East.
Immigration can be solved with or without Brexit, by ending the destruction of their homes. It will be solved that way, and only that way, no matter what happens with Brexit. It is a diversion from the real long term concerns that ought to be considered when deciding this.
Those concerns are economic and security, arising from Britain being outside looking in on a super-state, or Britain being in a super-state that limits its self sovereignty. Those are the serious issues of long lasting importance.
Immigration is driven by the destruction of the Middle East, pushed since Bush by the US. To stop this immigration flood, stop the destruction of their homes. Many here now would go home, and those coming would fall off to what it once was, a mere trickle.
Immigration resonates as an issue in the US because it has a misleading, superficial similarity to American problems on its southern border.
It has heat in Britain as a topic of the moment, but the topic predates immigration, and the real economic and security concerns about Brexit have little to do with immigration from the Middle East.
Immigration can be solved with or without Brexit, by ending the destruction of their homes. It will be solved that way, and only that way, no matter what happens with Brexit. It is a diversion from the real long term concerns that ought to be considered when deciding this.
Those concerns are economic and security, arising from Britain being outside looking in on a super-state, or Britain being in a super-state that limits its self sovereignty. Those are the serious issues of long lasting importance.
5
England can leave the EU, Great Britain will disintegrate. Scotland will want to be in the EU, Ireland is in and Northern Ireland and Wales will be desperately chained to stay in the Union. England will not be able to support a financial center such as London when disconnected from the rest of Europe. But, hey, go for it.
13
Polls show the majority of Welsh are voting to leave. Ditto Northern Ireland.
Scotland will certainly leave if we stay in the EU since all important decisions will be taken in Brussels and Edinburgh will have no use for a Westminster middleman.
If countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Iceland and Switzerland, just to name a few -- all of which are smaller in terms of population and GDP than Britain -- can thrive as sovereign independent nations, so can the UK -- with or without Scotland.
But by all means, keep displaying your ignorance of the United Kingdom.
Scotland will certainly leave if we stay in the EU since all important decisions will be taken in Brussels and Edinburgh will have no use for a Westminster middleman.
If countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Iceland and Switzerland, just to name a few -- all of which are smaller in terms of population and GDP than Britain -- can thrive as sovereign independent nations, so can the UK -- with or without Scotland.
But by all means, keep displaying your ignorance of the United Kingdom.
Scotland is going nowhere - its one big asset, oil, has plunged in price. It gets hefty subsidies from south of the Tweed. Nicola Sturgeon's party is all about breaking away from Britain regardless of circumstance, and she has been bawling about using a BREXIT as a lever for a new referendum for a long time.
The problem is, the NO voters in Scotland number more than the YES voters and with what the Scots can see before their eyes of the EU now (you know, selling Europe to Turkey to save its political butt and cover up its failings re the migrant crisis?) and what with the sinking prices of oil . . .
I assure you, the Scots will stick around.
The problem is, the NO voters in Scotland number more than the YES voters and with what the Scots can see before their eyes of the EU now (you know, selling Europe to Turkey to save its political butt and cover up its failings re the migrant crisis?) and what with the sinking prices of oil . . .
I assure you, the Scots will stick around.
1
History teaches that a most effective means for great empires to retain their power was the old divide and rule approach. It worked for the Romans and it worked for Britain who was eager to send in the troops whenever it felt threatened by a rising continental power, such as Napoleon's France.
A Britain stripped of its empire refused to join Germany, France, Italy and the so-called Benelux countries which signed the treaty of Rome. The group was successful beyond all expectations and became the core around which a peaceful, relatively affluent Europe was born. In 1973 Britain belatedly and reluctantly became a member. Since then its contribution to the construction of Europe has been mostly disruptive and divisive, demanding at every turn for opt out clauses and special privileges. I think that most fair-minded Europeans still hope that the British vote to stay in and play a constructive role. However I suspect that a good number of them are losing patience with a member that is perceived as increasingly truculent and divisive.
A Britain stripped of its empire refused to join Germany, France, Italy and the so-called Benelux countries which signed the treaty of Rome. The group was successful beyond all expectations and became the core around which a peaceful, relatively affluent Europe was born. In 1973 Britain belatedly and reluctantly became a member. Since then its contribution to the construction of Europe has been mostly disruptive and divisive, demanding at every turn for opt out clauses and special privileges. I think that most fair-minded Europeans still hope that the British vote to stay in and play a constructive role. However I suspect that a good number of them are losing patience with a member that is perceived as increasingly truculent and divisive.
7
So you're saying we were wrong to oppose a tyrant like Napoleon Bonaparte? What's next? That we should be condemned for opposing Hitler?
If your view is anything akin to the average continental European's, we really do come from different civilizations.
If your view is anything akin to the average continental European's, we really do come from different civilizations.
If what you see before you is "successful beyond all expectation" than I tremble to imagine what you see as failure.
The EU was envisioned as a Franco-German project, with Germany leading economically and France leading politically. The Benelux countries just tagged along, and France soon fell by the wayside as the German powerhouse became first among equals.
The UK makes a massive contribution to the EU's coffers and has basically become the dumping ground for most of Eastern Europe's excess unemployed - a sort of benefits pantry for Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania. Believe me, the EU doesn't want to see the UK leave, taking its billions in dues with it, and suggesting to other increasingly unhappy members as Germany and Brussels try to shove huge numbers of Middle Eastern migrants into a region already suffering from social issues with same that there just might be a way out . . .
The EU is also unsustainable in its current form, as its abysmal response to the migrant crisis reveals the widening cracks under the flaking wallpaper of "unity".
Then, of course, there's the spectacle of the "successful beyond all expectations" entity selling its soul to Turkey, and agri-giants like Monsanto as it tries to relicense a weed killer with a known carcinogen in it . . .
A BREXIT by the UK would deal a lethal blow to the EU - not the other way around. Maybe it's high time, as the EU has shown itself to be so resistant to adaptation to changing circumstances.
The EU was envisioned as a Franco-German project, with Germany leading economically and France leading politically. The Benelux countries just tagged along, and France soon fell by the wayside as the German powerhouse became first among equals.
The UK makes a massive contribution to the EU's coffers and has basically become the dumping ground for most of Eastern Europe's excess unemployed - a sort of benefits pantry for Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania. Believe me, the EU doesn't want to see the UK leave, taking its billions in dues with it, and suggesting to other increasingly unhappy members as Germany and Brussels try to shove huge numbers of Middle Eastern migrants into a region already suffering from social issues with same that there just might be a way out . . .
The EU is also unsustainable in its current form, as its abysmal response to the migrant crisis reveals the widening cracks under the flaking wallpaper of "unity".
Then, of course, there's the spectacle of the "successful beyond all expectations" entity selling its soul to Turkey, and agri-giants like Monsanto as it tries to relicense a weed killer with a known carcinogen in it . . .
A BREXIT by the UK would deal a lethal blow to the EU - not the other way around. Maybe it's high time, as the EU has shown itself to be so resistant to adaptation to changing circumstances.
1
England has 9 of the 10 poorest regions in Northern Europe. The only bright spot is the financial center of London. With the Brexit and resultant transference of the financial center to Frankfurt, England will become a peripheral, "petite angleterre" - a de facto colony of Europe.
3
A de facto colony of Europe? Well, Hitler and Napoleon believed the same thing.
Yeah sure, a continent whose economies are in relative decline and whose indigenous populations are in absolute decline.
You lot said the exact same thing about our not adopting the euro -- please try harder old boy.
Yeah sure, a continent whose economies are in relative decline and whose indigenous populations are in absolute decline.
You lot said the exact same thing about our not adopting the euro -- please try harder old boy.
Amazing how that poor little island ever became the nation it is before the EU invented itself.
Amazing for hundreds of years how that poor little island commanded a World Empire, much like America is attempting to do now. Of course, if history teaches us anything, we understand what eventually happens to Empires.
There are some Mathew D'Ancona and the Labour Party in particular that dislike the idea of the British people expressing their will in a democratic forum. Essentially, they prefer the unwashed should shut up and do what they are told to do.
They should let their small island become overrun by illegal immigrants and not complain when they end up on the dole.
The UK has the fifth larges economy in the world and their own currency. Leaving the EU will have its ups and downs but both Switzerland and Norway not members do quite fine with robust economy's and bi-lateral trade relations with the EU.
The Scot's will do whatever they please irrespective of the results of the referendum.
Mistakenly thinking that they can intimidate England, Wales and Northern Ireland in remaining in the EU will blow up in their faces.
The rest of the country has grown weary of the Scot's petulance and endless threats, so be off if you wish and fill your glens with Arab refugees and Polish job seekers.
They should let their small island become overrun by illegal immigrants and not complain when they end up on the dole.
The UK has the fifth larges economy in the world and their own currency. Leaving the EU will have its ups and downs but both Switzerland and Norway not members do quite fine with robust economy's and bi-lateral trade relations with the EU.
The Scot's will do whatever they please irrespective of the results of the referendum.
Mistakenly thinking that they can intimidate England, Wales and Northern Ireland in remaining in the EU will blow up in their faces.
The rest of the country has grown weary of the Scot's petulance and endless threats, so be off if you wish and fill your glens with Arab refugees and Polish job seekers.
13
“As Britain formalized its withdrawal, it would find its status dropping in the world like a bad stock.” As will America’s status under President Trump. The ignorant masses, looking to return to the glory days of British empire and unrivaled American hegemony, instead will hasten the death of Western leadership. Beijing will be only too happy to fill the void.
16
Your statement that the British people are ignorant masses looking to return to the glory days of the British Empire (something only foreigners ever bring up) demonstrates both your provincialism and parochialism.
Fortunately, the EU is dying, like all the pan-European empires before it.
Fortunately, the EU is dying, like all the pan-European empires before it.
Not to mention the countries who will suddenly begin clamoring for their own referenda, as the Dutch are doing, as they see there really is a way out from under Brussels' thumb.
Which is what the EU is really afraid of.
Which is what the EU is really afraid of.
1
After the disgusting Angela Merkel deal with the EU, the UK should definitely leave the EU. It does not want to get mixed up in the Merkel Turkey deal which will do wrong. and end up with the UK having to take in more migrants, losing the right to send unwanted Migrants back, plus paying more money to the useless beureaucrats in Brussels who do nothing but make life hard for citizens.
14
I think Merkel is already gone. To accept it will take a while longer, but maybe as early as next week when three states in Germany vote. The rest of the EU has already stopped to listen to her hogwash and they do what is in their interest.
It is the tragedy of Germany to elect leaders who want to tell the world what to do. But Europeans are getting smarter and just leave Merkel on the side.
It is the tragedy of Germany to elect leaders who want to tell the world what to do. But Europeans are getting smarter and just leave Merkel on the side.
To-Be-or-not-to-Be with the EU really is pretty simple a question for Britain: You wan to be your own country or not? Every law that is passed by the EU takes one more bite out of the apple. But the financial advantages, or should it be said the financial disadvantages for Britain are too great. They can't walk away.
3
Cameron may have opened Pandora's box when he committed to this referendum. From what I hear from "ordinary" British voters, they are itching to vote to leave the EU, and have been so for quite some time. A sizeable swath of the British public has never been comfortable with nosy Brussels - and they are not alone. While they appreciate the trade benefits of the EU, many Europeans are angry at intrusive EU regulations that challenge their country's sovereignty. The concept of a "United States of Europe", with the "federal" regulatory system that goes with it, has never flown and never will. If the UK does indeed vote to leave the EU, we may hear more about this from like-minded people in other EU countries.
14
One of the few commentators here who has any knowledge whatsoever about the UK. Well done.
1
This referendum was introduced by Cameron to assuage the
eurosceptic from UKIP during the last campaign. The Tory chose
to dance to the tune of extreme right wing rhetoric. The risk of
"Brexit" is high indeed, first it might isolate Britain then it might
dissolve the United Kingdom as a sovereign state into oblivion
with the looming prospect of Scotland followed by Wales and
Northern Ireland to join the EU. David Cameron could have
the historical responsibility of the collapse of this union
established in 1707.
eurosceptic from UKIP during the last campaign. The Tory chose
to dance to the tune of extreme right wing rhetoric. The risk of
"Brexit" is high indeed, first it might isolate Britain then it might
dissolve the United Kingdom as a sovereign state into oblivion
with the looming prospect of Scotland followed by Wales and
Northern Ireland to join the EU. David Cameron could have
the historical responsibility of the collapse of this union
established in 1707.
7
As if the rise of the Scottish National Party and the increasing usurpation of national powers by the EU is unrelated.
Wales and NI are likely to vote leave according to the polls.
Europe is in full scale decline. It has no future.
Wales and NI are likely to vote leave according to the polls.
Europe is in full scale decline. It has no future.
What is astonishing about this op ed piece is not that Britain wants to leave the EU. It's that Britain ever saw fit to join in the first place. The only other times Europe had a single currency were during the Napoleonic Wars and WWII, when Hitler made his attempt to dominate the world through Europe. And the descendants of those Nazis who still live and who are the 1% of Germany have had their way with the rest of the continent, far too long. I know I am not alone in supporting Britain's departure from this incongruous match, and hope to see its legal system back on its own footing free from the oppressive mealy-mouthed political correctness that is actually fascism masquerading in the clothing of a social awareness.
11
I think it needs to be remembered that the UK didn't actually join the EU, but the EEC (originally the Common Market), essentially a trading bloc, not a political entity. That only came with the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, which also gave rise to the idea of the common currency. The UK wasn't keen on the political union idea, and a compromise limiting the powers of the European Commission was reached.
9
Most of the inhabitants of those soggy little islands moored off the coast of Europe have never really come to terms with their fall in status from the greatest empire the world has ever seen to a second- and perhaps even third-rate status. They have done great things for the world, but they can't accept their glories being "at one with Nineveh and Tyre" as Kipling wrote. The EU has many failings, as do all political entities (just look at the current US Presidential election), but overall it has been a tremendous force for good in a continent inclined to go to war every quarter-century or so. It seems to this outsider looking in that the British ideas are needed more than ever, and that leaving would be a gigantic leap into the dark, essentially a huge act of faith. Switzerland is not an EU member, but it still has to adhere to many of the EU rules, and gets no say whatsoever in their formulation. The UK should stay in the club ands work towards its democratisation - outside the club, it has no chance of doing so. And of course, in the event of a Brexit, there will almost certainly be no UK in the coming years and Cameron will be remembered as The Man Who Lost The United Kingdom. I suspect that, more than anything, will give him sleepless nights.
16
Anyone that brings up the empire in context of the complex debate on EU membership is, in every case, a sneering fool.
10
Speaking as an inhabitant of the smaller, colder soggy island, we were never the greatest empire the World has ever seen, we were mostly a supplier of food and cannon fodder to that empire.
However, we have now placed sleeper agents among the populations of many of the Worlds most influential countries (we just hope people don't notice all the O's and Mac's in their names... and the red hair).
We may not have been the greatest empire, but our time will come! Bwahahaha
P.S. Next meeting of the conspiracy is March 17th. All welcome.
However, we have now placed sleeper agents among the populations of many of the Worlds most influential countries (we just hope people don't notice all the O's and Mac's in their names... and the red hair).
We may not have been the greatest empire, but our time will come! Bwahahaha
P.S. Next meeting of the conspiracy is March 17th. All welcome.
1
Yes, yes, another ignorant foreigner declaring that we haven't got over the loss of the Empire. You can, of course, provide evidence for this?
Britain survived Napoleon, Kaiser Bill, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. We'll survive the EU.
FYI -- as a Swiss, why don't you agitate for your people to join? Oh yes, I forgot, the Swiss people have repeatedly voted "no" to joining in every referendum put to them.
Could be a lesson there.
Britain survived Napoleon, Kaiser Bill, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. We'll survive the EU.
FYI -- as a Swiss, why don't you agitate for your people to join? Oh yes, I forgot, the Swiss people have repeatedly voted "no" to joining in every referendum put to them.
Could be a lesson there.
2
Politics provide so many lessons to the observant student. A few months ago Jeremy Corbyn was pretty roundly ridiculed for his inability to control Labour MPs over Syria and Trident. A mark of weakness we were told. Today, Cameron faces what may ultimately be an existential crisis for his government, a loss of control over the direction of the Conservative Party and, it appears, he will ultimately need Mr. Corbyn's voters to pull out a victory to remain in the EU. I guess that is what comes with a parliamentary majority based on 36% of the vote.
4
Brexit would be great for Wall Street since the UK will be finally shown to be the truly two bit ex colonial power it is so why invest in London when you can invest in NYC!
1
Being the financial capitals in the modern age of international capitalism has been a pox on both London and NYC, something that is paid for by everyone else in both urban areas while the financial sector money all goes to high rise multi million dollar/pound empty apartments and estates and yachts, and double rents for everyone else.
7
Let them go. President de Gaulle was right all along; the UK should never have joined the continental union. Let them go and negotiate something like the Swiss and the Norwegians have, and everybody will be happy. One can stay on friendly terms even after a divorce. And then the other EU countries can go on and form a more perfect union, possibly including Scotland.
I can't remember the last time the UK government (*any* UK government!) has contributed anything productive to the EU. Instead there is constant bickering, there are exceptions, extra wishes, threats. Who needs this, who has the stomach for it year after year after year? Let them go and let them be happy with the Commonwealth and the illusion of a special relationship with the US and with the Imperial War Museum to contemplate the former glory. I honestly wish all the best for the UK. And then a fresh start for Europe.
I can't remember the last time the UK government (*any* UK government!) has contributed anything productive to the EU. Instead there is constant bickering, there are exceptions, extra wishes, threats. Who needs this, who has the stomach for it year after year after year? Let them go and let them be happy with the Commonwealth and the illusion of a special relationship with the US and with the Imperial War Museum to contemplate the former glory. I honestly wish all the best for the UK. And then a fresh start for Europe.
11
How about advice that the Euro could never be stable without a ful political union? How about advice that offering to import millions of third world migrants could only go wrong?
The pompous stupidity of too many in Europe will be its downfall. There is nothing less impressive than those too arrogant to take advice.
The pompous stupidity of too many in Europe will be its downfall. There is nothing less impressive than those too arrogant to take advice.
7
Forget it, J. They'll never forgive us for daring to hold a different point of view.
Right. As if the UK would have been willing to join a "full political union" under any circumstances. In fact, once Britain is back to splendid isolation, the full political union might finally happen. The only countries which have "import[ed] millions of third world migrants" over the years (nice phrase, btw: human beings are "imported" like merchandise) are the former colonial powers, most prominently the UK (but also France, the Netherlands). If you mean that Sweden, Germany and others should have told starving children to go home to civil war in Syria, your advice is neither humane, nor practical, nor helpful.
Art. 1 of the German Basic Law safeguards human dignity, Art. 16a the basic right to asylum for political refugees. And there is the Geneva Convention regarding refugees. Your advice would be, apparently, to completely disregard all those legal and constitutional commands.
If you think Europe is full of "pompous stupidity", please leave it. Great Britain was apparently doing spectacularly well on its own before joining the European Community/Union, so please feel free to go back to that era.
Art. 1 of the German Basic Law safeguards human dignity, Art. 16a the basic right to asylum for political refugees. And there is the Geneva Convention regarding refugees. Your advice would be, apparently, to completely disregard all those legal and constitutional commands.
If you think Europe is full of "pompous stupidity", please leave it. Great Britain was apparently doing spectacularly well on its own before joining the European Community/Union, so please feel free to go back to that era.
2
The lives of Boris Johnson and David Cameron are closely intertwined since their days at Eton to say that they are simply political acquaintances is simply not true. The Irresistible Rise the BBC documentary on the life of Boris Johnson gives a clear picture of the lifelong connection of Cameron and Johnson and how Johnson's oversized personality and gregarious nature have overshadowed Cameron.
Maybe it is Boris' New York birth that makes him so flamboyant but I suspect Boris Johnson to soon be the central voice of the English Speaking World's conservatives.
The life of Boris Johnson and David Cameron are far more than just Brexit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVq7ZGlvapM
Maybe it is Boris' New York birth that makes him so flamboyant but I suspect Boris Johnson to soon be the central voice of the English Speaking World's conservatives.
The life of Boris Johnson and David Cameron are far more than just Brexit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVq7ZGlvapM
2
"But America would need a new best friend for its negotiations with the European bloc."
Yes, exactly, this and this alone is the reason why the Americans are so concerned. Britain is and has always been America's poodle, eager to do American bidding even if (or especially if) it hurts European interests.
Yes, exactly, this and this alone is the reason why the Americans are so concerned. Britain is and has always been America's poodle, eager to do American bidding even if (or especially if) it hurts European interests.
6
Hmmm, I suppose some might see loyalty as subservience, but most of us on the inside of the relationship see it as friendship. That can always be a tough idea to understand for those whose connection has been a bit more ephemeral.
4
'hurts European interests'
Why would it need to? The EU has managed to stagger from one self inflicted crisis to another. The rank incompetence of Europeans needs no support from either the UK or the USA.
Arrogance and ignorance are a toxic mix.
Why would it need to? The EU has managed to stagger from one self inflicted crisis to another. The rank incompetence of Europeans needs no support from either the UK or the USA.
Arrogance and ignorance are a toxic mix.
4
Indeed, Britain can either go down with the sinking ship and splutter about in the choppy sea, hoping to be rescued, or be on the first lifeboat out, with a chance to safely reach the shore and start anew.
1
As long as I remember advantages of the EU and its development into a titan of undemocratic rule have been stated in terms that also Ancona uses: he clearly says that Britain would loose 'global punch'.Continental pro EU people also say that 'Europe would loose global punch' among the continents if it broke down. Such arguments are meaningless. How much global punch does Britain have now and what proportion would be lost? And why would such 'loss' be meaningfull or even perceptible? EU is the name for a series of political dreams and Utopia's that are strikingly similar to the Utopia's of communism or 'free market'. They are references to contemporary political phantasy and it that sense a chapter in a long series of broken dreams.
9
BRITAIN & THE EU Have negotiated compromises going forward that, to many, make it unnecessary for it to leave the EU. Still, compromises are unacceptable to people with authoritarian styles who want things to be completely their way. If Britain does leave, then there will be fierce arguments about how to restructure whatever the UK must do going forward. More than one option is definitely going to be debated, and one or another version adopted. That leaves Britain in a dilemma: Whose authoritarian version is the correct one. The best outcome of that debate would compromise, which would challenge the ideological purity of both winner and loser. Danger lies that way. If you want proof, look at the US Congress where the debate in the House is about who's version of the ideology is the purest. And a planned logjam that result in no legislation. For the GOP in the House disdain both legislation and governance. Woe be unto Britain if Parliament devolves into the ideological battles crippling the US nationwide. The notion that elected officials need to fulfill their oaths of office is viewed here as a quaint, trivial bother that obstructs the fight over how many ideologies can dance on the head of an elephant. Unfortunately that's very many given the size of a pachyderm's head. It looks to me from this perspective across the Atlantic as if Britain would do better to remain part of the EU with some compromises made than to trash the whole thing and start over again.
2
The EU is forcing things on other nations, and it's not been democratic. Germany is ruling, Brussels makes the rules---why would the average Brit want that? Plus get Cameron out. Let the banksters squirm for awhile.
The markets will go crazy for awhile but they're doing that anyway.
The markets will go crazy for awhile but they're doing that anyway.
11
Why wait for any "referendum"? Make their minds up for them and kick the divisive, obstructive, disruptive Brits OUT of the Union! They've never been worth a penny to the EU, just a headache.
3
'They've never been worth a penny to the EU'
Really? So the hundreds of billions paid by the UK (as one of the largest net contributors) over the past decades don't exist in your ignorant little world?
Or is it true that you have no idea what you're talking about?
Really? So the hundreds of billions paid by the UK (as one of the largest net contributors) over the past decades don't exist in your ignorant little world?
Or is it true that you have no idea what you're talking about?
7
Ever since we joined the EU (or what was then the European Economic Community) we have contributed more in net terms than any nation, save Germany.
You're from Canada, I see. When is your nation going to form a political union with the United States? You have far more historically and culturally in common with the Americans than we do the Europeans, after all.
You're from Canada, I see. When is your nation going to form a political union with the United States? You have far more historically and culturally in common with the Americans than we do the Europeans, after all.
1
Considering the odds of the Brexit like Britain losing global punch, loss of the economic and financial advantages that the British membership of the EU affords, and the looming threat of the disintegration of the existing United Kingdom, the Eurosceptics and the voters in general are expected to display a better sense of judgment when it comes to the day of reckoning on June 23.
1
Indeed the problem for Britain is that the EU is evolving into a super-state.
Another problem for Britain is that Germany and France have wanted that all along.
"Ever greater union" to a super-state does not mean to them an end of nationhood, it means that nationalism can never again take Germany and France to war. Three times was enough, 1870, 1914, and 1939. The thinkers who proposed the original Iron and Coal community were explicitly looking further out, to make those wars stop.
Britain did not sign on for that.
However, Britain has its own problem they don't share. The great fear of Britain for hundreds of years has been to be left an island outside a vastly more powerful united Continent. Britain wanted instead of have the Continent made up of powers comparable to itself that it could balance off to maintain British safety.
Brexit would leave a united Continent under the effective control of exactly the two nations Britain always feared to let have that control: France and Germany.
Now Britain can be inside with some influence, or outside looking in at the very power it always feared.
Nothing to fear today? The End of History is over rated. True the Luftwaffe isn't threatening a new Battle of Britain, but it was Britain's economic position that caused the great rivalry with Germany before WW1. The Naval Race was just a symptom of that.
Brexit takes Britain directly to a long-standing nightmare result. Whether or not Britain leaves, the rest will stay together.
Another problem for Britain is that Germany and France have wanted that all along.
"Ever greater union" to a super-state does not mean to them an end of nationhood, it means that nationalism can never again take Germany and France to war. Three times was enough, 1870, 1914, and 1939. The thinkers who proposed the original Iron and Coal community were explicitly looking further out, to make those wars stop.
Britain did not sign on for that.
However, Britain has its own problem they don't share. The great fear of Britain for hundreds of years has been to be left an island outside a vastly more powerful united Continent. Britain wanted instead of have the Continent made up of powers comparable to itself that it could balance off to maintain British safety.
Brexit would leave a united Continent under the effective control of exactly the two nations Britain always feared to let have that control: France and Germany.
Now Britain can be inside with some influence, or outside looking in at the very power it always feared.
Nothing to fear today? The End of History is over rated. True the Luftwaffe isn't threatening a new Battle of Britain, but it was Britain's economic position that caused the great rivalry with Germany before WW1. The Naval Race was just a symptom of that.
Brexit takes Britain directly to a long-standing nightmare result. Whether or not Britain leaves, the rest will stay together.
27
@ Mark Thomason
And for the US as a counterbalance. It's also the biggest problem for the US to be without a mole in that "super-state".
Britain still thinks it's "great" Britain, as the US dreams it is "exceptional" and the only instrument of influence both will have left is the increasingly decrepit, moribund, cadaverous NATO, the "super-power" they both wanted ans is not.
And for the US as a counterbalance. It's also the biggest problem for the US to be without a mole in that "super-state".
Britain still thinks it's "great" Britain, as the US dreams it is "exceptional" and the only instrument of influence both will have left is the increasingly decrepit, moribund, cadaverous NATO, the "super-power" they both wanted ans is not.
3
The rest will stay together if Britain leaves?
I wouldn't bet on that....
I wouldn't bet on that....
@ Celt the Dog
Actually, since Britain has been nothing but disruptive and divisive, "the rest" will finally be able to get it "together".
Actually, since Britain has been nothing but disruptive and divisive, "the rest" will finally be able to get it "together".
1
In order to stay within the European Union, transferring home from London to... Dundee? Aberdeen? Acquiring a new citizenship? Scotland. What a dank, cold prospect.
2
As an American I cannot fully understand the nuances of this debate. Cameron, however, deserves to be commended for giving the British people the right to decide their destiny. The EU does not rest on a true democratic foundation: it has been forced on European populations by political elites. Cameron is at least giving his electorate its rightful say. Good for him, and for the UK.
31
Um, the UK already had a referendum on EU membership in 1975. How long should a referendum result last? Should all self-governing members of a larger body be regularly consulted on whether they want to stay in? How regularly? And what is a true democratic foundation? This is more about Cameron trying to keep his position in a party which has been tearing itself apart with conflicting ideas then any huge desire of David Cameron to suddenly introduce democracy into the UK's relationship with the EU.
1
That was a referendum on Britain remaining a member of the EEC which was a trading block, and it only had 9 member countries. The EU is something different.
1
It appears that a Brexit teeters on the preference for a Britain-controlled Rule of Law and the stronger Economic Option. Leaving the EU would result in somewhat of a partial isolation from the Mainland. And how might a Non-Member Trade Status, such as Switzerland has, actually work? And the UK economy itself might be hurt further by a Scottish departure. Even then, Spain, trying to ignore Catalonia's Independence effort, might veto Scotland joining the EU.
Now, that's a lot of uncertainty to face; but, the British Rule of Law and Sovereignty are much more than mere national pride. Relinquishing more of the essence of its very being is more than man Brits can stomach.
Consider also what the ramifications of a Brexit might be for the stability of the EU. It hardly wants to see its second largest economy leave. And undoubtedly, there will be more nations lining up to follow suit.
Perhaps Cameron should attempt to negotiate an even better deal
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Now, that's a lot of uncertainty to face; but, the British Rule of Law and Sovereignty are much more than mere national pride. Relinquishing more of the essence of its very being is more than man Brits can stomach.
Consider also what the ramifications of a Brexit might be for the stability of the EU. It hardly wants to see its second largest economy leave. And undoubtedly, there will be more nations lining up to follow suit.
Perhaps Cameron should attempt to negotiate an even better deal
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
3
I have always supported the UK remaining in the EU. The EU has always had it's problems, but on balance the benefits have always outweighed the costs. That was until today. The vision of EU leaders cutting a deal Turkey to save themselves from their own inability to agree to a coherent strategy on illegal migrants has left me utterly disgusted with the whole European Project. The uncertainties of Brexit look like a cheap price to pay to escape a Europe bent on its own suicide by making Turkey a part of Europe and Europe a part of the Middle East.
30
What many commentators overlook is the fact that most migrants ( and Turks) speak English. No other EU country is as vulnerable to entry from them, legally or illegally, as there are plenty of rudimentary jobs below the radar of the authorities, and extended family or friends already in the U.K.. Once in, immigration staff is not exactly known for tracking migrants down. Ever declining wages for menial jobs are one of the many undesirable side effects.
6
Those "migrants" were once on the receiving end of British colonialism. Maybe if the English had meddled in the Middle East, only to rob it of whatever natural resources they could get and for whatever strategic importance they thought it represented the ME and Turkey wouldn't be in such dire straits today. Reap what you sow. Blame your great grandparents.
The sleazy deal being struck with Turkey's Erdogan should be the final nail in the coffin of Britain's EU membership. The EU's lack of unity and democracy has created and inflamed the migrant crisis and would doubt pragmatic British citizens would want to be subject to international extortion. The EU is corrupt and incompetent and the average Briton knows this and is in no mood to be part of Germany's and France's follies. When the Middle East and N. Africa implode, Britain might be better off being responsible for their own sovereignty.
32
"The breakup of Britain and a shrinking role on the global stage as a commercial, diplomatic and strategic force... The stakes could hardly be higher."
Well, maybe not. Britain has had its time on the global stage. Why should it scramble to share the "stage" within a lumbering and soulless bureaucracy that can scarcely act at all?
The only question is what is best for ordinary Britons. That's what the election is for.
Well, maybe not. Britain has had its time on the global stage. Why should it scramble to share the "stage" within a lumbering and soulless bureaucracy that can scarcely act at all?
The only question is what is best for ordinary Britons. That's what the election is for.
28
Well, ordinary Britons who want to retire to warmer coasts on the Continent will find it harder to do. The status of Britons working on the Continent will be called into question. Over a million Brits live on the Continent -- what happens to them? To the pensions of the retired ones?
Scotland would undoubtedly try to leave the UK. The EU may not want a member state breaking up, but a Spain and a Belgium that are parts of a UK-less EU might not be so bothered about former member states breaking up.
In any event, the EU would not have tremendous impetus to give away the store in negotiations with a post-EU UK. Why should they? You don't want to be a member, but you want all the market benefits of membership? Dream on Boris.
Ordinary Britons drive a lot of cars made by EU companies -- generally built in the UK. Would those factories remain open or migrate to somewhere the EU wouldn't be ticked off at? How much more do ordinary Britons want to pay for the Renaults, Citroëns, Peugeots, Alfas, Fiats, VWs, Škodas, Audis, and BMWs? (Presumably the Bentley and Rolls' drivers won't notice -- even the Audi and BMW ones may not.)
Cameron bungled this badly. Promising a referendum for short-term electoral gain was stupid. He may get two terms as PM, but he may also go down in history as the PM who broke up the UK.
Nice legacy Dave.
Scotland would undoubtedly try to leave the UK. The EU may not want a member state breaking up, but a Spain and a Belgium that are parts of a UK-less EU might not be so bothered about former member states breaking up.
In any event, the EU would not have tremendous impetus to give away the store in negotiations with a post-EU UK. Why should they? You don't want to be a member, but you want all the market benefits of membership? Dream on Boris.
Ordinary Britons drive a lot of cars made by EU companies -- generally built in the UK. Would those factories remain open or migrate to somewhere the EU wouldn't be ticked off at? How much more do ordinary Britons want to pay for the Renaults, Citroëns, Peugeots, Alfas, Fiats, VWs, Škodas, Audis, and BMWs? (Presumably the Bentley and Rolls' drivers won't notice -- even the Audi and BMW ones may not.)
Cameron bungled this badly. Promising a referendum for short-term electoral gain was stupid. He may get two terms as PM, but he may also go down in history as the PM who broke up the UK.
Nice legacy Dave.
6
burroughs
England and Britain are not the same thing. With the withdrawal of the United States from the center stage as we enter the 21st century another country or federation will have to assume that role.
Whether it will be a federation like the Western Democracies or a nation state like England we will soon find out.
The USA will need at least two decades behind a high wall to get its house in order before it is again ready to take center stage.
England and Britain are not the same thing. With the withdrawal of the United States from the center stage as we enter the 21st century another country or federation will have to assume that role.
Whether it will be a federation like the Western Democracies or a nation state like England we will soon find out.
The USA will need at least two decades behind a high wall to get its house in order before it is again ready to take center stage.
1
In 2002 and 2003, the Brits acted as enablers of Bush's war against Iraq, unlike France, which fulfilled a critical function of a good ally by giving good advice. Back in 2011 the Brits tried to take advantage of a euro crisis to negotiate a special deal for the City of London. Fortunately, 26 other countries refused to cave, and instead formed the European Fiscal Compact. How any country could want Britain as an ally is beyond me. The sooner Britain becomes an unimportant island off the northwest coast of Europe, the better.
19
Cynical,
It was Samuel Johnson who said of London those who needed to look outside of London to see all that was worth seeing were challenged.
There is a unique physical resemblance between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump but Boris' charm and intellect promise to put England on center stage in the 21st century just as Donald puts America and its three ring circus behind an impenetrable 50 foot wall.
Boris a true conservative has the love , wisdom and joy that seems to have alluded American and European politics. I am not a conservative but a politician who admits his mistakes and says he will try to do better the next time is a politician we need front and center on the world stage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVq7ZGlvapM
It was Samuel Johnson who said of London those who needed to look outside of London to see all that was worth seeing were challenged.
There is a unique physical resemblance between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump but Boris' charm and intellect promise to put England on center stage in the 21st century just as Donald puts America and its three ring circus behind an impenetrable 50 foot wall.
Boris a true conservative has the love , wisdom and joy that seems to have alluded American and European politics. I am not a conservative but a politician who admits his mistakes and says he will try to do better the next time is a politician we need front and center on the world stage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVq7ZGlvapM
2
Here we have it, the delusional sneering of the EU fanatic. The 5th largest economy globally is going to 'an unimportant island off the northwest[sp] coast of Europe'? Really?
And how is this fiscal compact doing? Are you aware of the Eurozone crisis? Or the unemployment rate in Spain and Italy? Or the ghastly treatment of Greece since 2011? Ugly, ugly attitude.
And how is this fiscal compact doing? Are you aware of the Eurozone crisis? Or the unemployment rate in Spain and Italy? Or the ghastly treatment of Greece since 2011? Ugly, ugly attitude.
4
Sorry, Cameron and "truth" are mutually exclusive terms!
It's against the rules of 'Fowler's Standard Written English' to have them in the same sentence!
It's against the rules of 'Fowler's Standard Written English' to have them in the same sentence!
13
1. there are countless examples of countries which dominated the world and never thrived again
2. you are not allowed to cherry pick your moments in History. It comes as a whole.
Hence there is no evidence that England will thrive again (since I understand from your arguments for Brexit that the EU has prevented England to thrive over the last 40+ years)
More importantly, picking in History the fact that the UK joined the EEC in the 70s, not a political union (even though very weak) as it has become since then, is an absolute ignorance of what built the EEC some 20 years before : the Schuman Declaration. Certainly the UK leaders in the 70s knew that, when they asked to join and it ought to be known now.
Pretending otherwise is only a sad, but apparently successful effort to blame the other European countries for trying to reach what the initial goal of the Schuman declaration was about: a political union. There was, and there is still, no change in course for the longer term. It is then a fallacious excuse for the proponents of the Brexit to distort History because it suits their current needs.
We all know too well in Europe what it costs to ignore History and it saddens me to see people in the UK consciously choosing this path for it does not lay ground fro a bright future.