Hola y buenos dias!
Interesting video. When I took Spanish as an undergrad, my first instructor, who is of Puerto Rican background, told the class about Spain's insistence of certain types of pronunciation for all Spanish speaking people. She said, more or less, that it was a kind of imperial dominance thing.
At another time, I spoke with someone else, of another background, who corrected my pronunciation of a word I learned in class. This lady asked me the background of my instructor (awkward, right?). I told her. Her response was to tell me to disregard that part of what I learned, because my instructor at that time is Puerto Rican.
I felt confused and like I'd stumbled into a culture war.
AS a Black woman of Creole background (born, raised in New Orleans) I can identify with some of what I've seen in this video and some of the comments. Being able to check only one box on a form, when more than thing applies and sometimes part of who I am isn't even listed. Light vs dark skin, proper pronunciation of words whether in Spanish or English. Geeze! When can we just be fellow earthlings and just get along? Be nice to each other?
In my next incarnation, hopefully somewhere else, I'd like to be a rainbow colored butterfly with other rainbow colored butterflies and, well... just BE.
Peace, positive vibes y adios.
3-8-16@2:06 pm
Interesting video. When I took Spanish as an undergrad, my first instructor, who is of Puerto Rican background, told the class about Spain's insistence of certain types of pronunciation for all Spanish speaking people. She said, more or less, that it was a kind of imperial dominance thing.
At another time, I spoke with someone else, of another background, who corrected my pronunciation of a word I learned in class. This lady asked me the background of my instructor (awkward, right?). I told her. Her response was to tell me to disregard that part of what I learned, because my instructor at that time is Puerto Rican.
I felt confused and like I'd stumbled into a culture war.
AS a Black woman of Creole background (born, raised in New Orleans) I can identify with some of what I've seen in this video and some of the comments. Being able to check only one box on a form, when more than thing applies and sometimes part of who I am isn't even listed. Light vs dark skin, proper pronunciation of words whether in Spanish or English. Geeze! When can we just be fellow earthlings and just get along? Be nice to each other?
In my next incarnation, hopefully somewhere else, I'd like to be a rainbow colored butterfly with other rainbow colored butterflies and, well... just BE.
Peace, positive vibes y adios.
3-8-16@2:06 pm
I never use the patronising, demeaning and diminishing terms 'Latino' or 'Hispanic'. If a person is from Mexico then they are a Mexican, if from Argentina then they are an Argentinian, from Peru a Peruvian etc.
4
@ Colenso-Yes Colenso, Kenneth Prewitt argues that one change that should be made in the Census is to register everyone by coujntry of birth and 2d generation by countries of birth of parents. Sweden does the first and of course does not use race/ethnicity with the exception of the Same indigenous group.
But consider Iraq: My Iraqi born friends are Kurds, Assyrians, Arabs (as measured by mother tongue). Someday the USCB must change its system, the question is how.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
But consider Iraq: My Iraqi born friends are Kurds, Assyrians, Arabs (as measured by mother tongue). Someday the USCB must change its system, the question is how.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
1
Let's clarify terms here to those who condemn The NY Times of being "racist":
Racist means/ implies: "poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race";"the belief that some races of people are better than others."
If you look at the front cover of the NY Times on a daily basis, most stories will revolve around white people.
Putting stories about the viewpoints of people of color in now way is racist in the REAL SENSE OF THE WORD.
I don't see a very many white people being denied voting rights, jobs, etc based on the color of their skin and because society deems them less worthy. It is the establishment, composed mainly of white males, that have legislated and harmed most poor white people in this country through NAFTA, and other so-called "free trade agreements."
One of the lessons of those "horrid" identity courses like Women's studies/feminism, African/Asian Studies is that the very vulnerable often vote and cooperate with those who will ultimately harm them. Keep that fact in mind when you lose your job because the factory is going overseas.
Racist means/ implies: "poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race";"the belief that some races of people are better than others."
If you look at the front cover of the NY Times on a daily basis, most stories will revolve around white people.
Putting stories about the viewpoints of people of color in now way is racist in the REAL SENSE OF THE WORD.
I don't see a very many white people being denied voting rights, jobs, etc based on the color of their skin and because society deems them less worthy. It is the establishment, composed mainly of white males, that have legislated and harmed most poor white people in this country through NAFTA, and other so-called "free trade agreements."
One of the lessons of those "horrid" identity courses like Women's studies/feminism, African/Asian Studies is that the very vulnerable often vote and cooperate with those who will ultimately harm them. Keep that fact in mind when you lose your job because the factory is going overseas.
1
@LMCA,
Thank you.
3-8-16@1:42 pm
Thank you.
3-8-16@1:42 pm
Here's the thing: Latin America is comprised of distinct countries, and we are foreigners to each other. I am from Argentina. I have as much in common with a Guatemalan as an American has with a New Zealander. I assume many Americans would be surprised to discover that we have racism and xenophobia and stereotypes of our own about people from Latin American countries other than our own. The term "Latino" presupposes the existence of a community that is at best an arbitrary construct. As an expat (now citizen), I have tried to mingle with "other Latinos" in the US and found a variety of individuals grasping for cultural commonality but broadly failing. The strongest common bond I've noticed seems to be the experience of some form of 'struggle,' particularly among US-born "Latinos" who faced identity issues growing up here while feeling and being treated as "different," but also among low-to-moderate-means first-generation immigrants from disparate cultures who get thrust together into the made-up “Latino” bucket, face common oppression as a result, and rally in response. I came to the US as a foreigner. Until the first time I had to fill out US paperwork, I was "Caucasian." That's it. Not "Caucasian - Hispanic/Latino." My family's heritage is all European. Can you picture telling an Italian-American or Irish-American nowadays that he’s not actually white? Your entire premise is flawed: there is no such thing as a “Latino,” except as a reductive, insulting shorthand.
3
Excellent analysis. I often avoid using the term Latino because we all have Spanish as s common language, therefore Hispanic is appropriate. But I have succumbed to the term to, essentially, shortcut certain argument.
As far as the NYTimes is concerned we are all Latinos in need of immigration papers. Set aside that of all the "Latinos", Cubans are the only ones who have a green card practically upon arrival. And that we, or our parents and grandparents, fled a communist dictatorship -/
Thank you. Migdia Chinea
As far as the NYTimes is concerned we are all Latinos in need of immigration papers. Set aside that of all the "Latinos", Cubans are the only ones who have a green card practically upon arrival. And that we, or our parents and grandparents, fled a communist dictatorship -/
Thank you. Migdia Chinea
3
Hernan I don´t know how much you know of US immigrant history, but it in some ways parallels immigration to Argentina & Brazil. When Sicilian immigrants arrived in the early years of the 20th century they were expected to live "on the other side of the tracks" - then as now Americans lumped them together with the other Italians despite their being darker. My mother & aunts born of Ucranian immigrants were not permitted at certain military dances during WWII, although like you they appeared (and racially were) caucasian. Here in México many non-lily-white people are not fond of Argentinians because they have the tendancy to lord their whiteness over the brown people here. When there were a bunch of migrants of upper middle class families to Mexico City during the 1990´s the fashion model industry was overwhelmed with tall blond young people from Argentina, at the expense of their shorter darker Mexican cousins. Racial judgements are pervasive worldwide. Skin lightening cream is about the best selling cosmetic globally, from India and South Asia, to Africa, Europe, Latin America.
3
Of course! How does an Argentinean commit suicide? He jumps off the top of his ego.... :) Discrimination according to one's position on the whiteness continuum has its roots in colonial times, when the term "mestizo" came into being, equating whiteness with European purity free of indigenous contamination, and certainly survives to this day. My point, as I believe your post underscores, is that we are too different to be lumped together, yet the "Latino" category in the US attempts to do just that.
3
Thank you for short documentaries and articles such as this one because it allows young Latinos, such as myself, to embrace our cultures and our different identities. I am assuming that many of those in the documentary did not grow up with such an advocacy for Hispanic/Latino/AfroLatino identity, as people of my generation are and it's such a privilege to grow up in a time where we have more and more documentaries and articles about Hispanic/Latino/AfroLatino identity and that we have an evolving and evergrowing Hispanic/Latino/AfroLatino presence within our communities.
After watching the news, are Rubio and Cruz Hispanic? I believe they both reject that label. And only Rubio speaks Spanish. Are they "of color"? Call me a cynic but the great Times has devolved into identity politics.
I am not comfortable with the term Latino. What does it mean? Is it a common language ? I have seen many Latino advocates who can barely speak Spanish, like Congressman Luis V. Gutierrez, his Spanish is atrocious, Cervantes would role in his grave if he could hear him. It is not a race, nor an ethnicity, nor a nation. What country are Latino people supposed to come from? My grandparents are from Spain, which the last time I checked was on the Iberian Penninsula in Europe. Is that Latino? How about the Basques? Are people whose language is based on Latin included? Then throw in the Romanians or how about the Sephardic Jews, at least they speak Ladino. Latino is a term created to alienate people of Hispanic origin from the mainstream. It is a term created on the misconception that Hispanics are an aggreved minority. Its origins are political, created in the wake of the migrant workers unions of the 1960's. and now perpetuated by the radical left . I feel no special kinship to the Mexicans and Central Americans who call themselves Latino, in fact we are different peoples separated by a common language, at best. I have nothing but gratitude and respect for this country. It opened it doors to my parents and never asked of them anything more than it did of its own citizens. I have never felt alienated because I can speak Spanish nor has anyone ever treated me poorly.
9
The term "Latino" refers to residents of Latin America or their descendants living in the United States. Latin American consist of the 26 countries in the Americas whose residents speak one of the Romance language derived from Latin because they were once colonies of Spain, Portugal or France. Spaniards are Hispanic but not Latino unless they have Latin American ancestry. For example, Spanish actors Javier Barden and Penelope Cruz frequently play Latin Americans in U.S. films, but they are Europeans, not Latinos. Hispanic/Latino leaders successfully lobbied to be recognized as a "protected language groups." Non-Hispanic Americans would rather they be treated like all other ethnic groups.
1
Actually, Latino is an ethnicity (look up the definition). Whether it's a race, i would argue using this term in itself is is archaic (a dog can date a cat, but it can't mate with one - however, someone of "white" heritage can date someone of "black" heritage, and what do you know, they can mate too. Point being we are all one race/species, technically/scientifically, only our phenotypes differentiate us visually).
The word Latino in this sense, is being used to describe culture from Latin America (being those people's who speak a Latin based language, regardless of where your family came from). It doesn't necessarily imply a cohesive group, on the contrary, just like the romance languages are diverse, so too are Latinos in general.
Then there's the Hispanic term, that you're claiming Latino was used to alienate. But I would argue Latino is a much more representative term than Hispanic. Hispanic derives from Hispania (modern day Iberian peninsula during the Roman Republic/Empire), but not everyone who is Latino are descendants of those from the Iberian Peninsula. In fact, Hispanic can be argued is a more divisive term. What does a Spaniard or a Portuguese know about life in Argentina or Brazil? Exactly, they don't. Latino would can therefore be used in a more local sense, as it unites countries in the Americas, based on a common language.
The word Latino in this sense, is being used to describe culture from Latin America (being those people's who speak a Latin based language, regardless of where your family came from). It doesn't necessarily imply a cohesive group, on the contrary, just like the romance languages are diverse, so too are Latinos in general.
Then there's the Hispanic term, that you're claiming Latino was used to alienate. But I would argue Latino is a much more representative term than Hispanic. Hispanic derives from Hispania (modern day Iberian peninsula during the Roman Republic/Empire), but not everyone who is Latino are descendants of those from the Iberian Peninsula. In fact, Hispanic can be argued is a more divisive term. What does a Spaniard or a Portuguese know about life in Argentina or Brazil? Exactly, they don't. Latino would can therefore be used in a more local sense, as it unites countries in the Americas, based on a common language.
1
Weirdly, the origins stretch back well before that. The French coined the term "Latin America" in order to justify their alliance with Latin American countries (aka colonialist power-grab) AGAINST the expanding United States, especially in Mexico during the Napoleonic era. The rationale was that the people of "Latin America" had common Latin roots with the French, and NOT with the Anglo-Saxon United States. France even installed an emperor of Mexico. "Latin America" is a term that was born out of France's proxy war with the United States. Given those origins, it's easy to understand the negative connotation that the term has had, from the start, in the US.
Will you be doing a segment on Native Americans, a group so marginalized they often neglected by the media as much as they are neglected by the Bureau Of Indian Affairs?
6
I feel like I know nothing about native americans. I agree with you fully, they should do a series about native americans. I'm sure they also feel identity issues too.
@Nora01,
Good idea.
3-8-16@1:34 pm
Good idea.
3-8-16@1:34 pm
Dear Joe, Blair, and Michele, Congratulations, you did a great job of introducing a very complex and difficult topic. The subjects discuss African, European, and American as part of being lationo. Yet, nobody addresses the participation of indigenous peoples. I'm Native, married to a Indigenous Mexican. We have children who are American, Mexican, and Native. There are probably more Indigenous people from Mexico, Guatemala, and beyond now living in the US than Native Americans. I know of communities in California, New York and Illinois where Maya, Mixteco, Zapoteco, or Nahuatl are the primary language. I worked with latino youth in LA who considered it an insult to someone "Indio". It may be easy to overlook US Natives because we are such a small part of the population. But in many countries latino immigrants are from, Indigenous people are a substantial part of the population, and since they are always at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale in these countries they comprise a significant proportion of the immigrants to the US. Your exploration of what it means to be latino will be incomplete until Indigenous people are included. Thank you.
10
While many or most Latinos have both European and Amerindian ancestry, Amerindians such as the tribes you mention are not normally counted as Latinos if they have maintained their tribal affiliation. The reason is that some Amerindian cultural groups have, at least partially, survived the European conquest. Of course, tribes north of the Rio Grande would be outraged if they were labeled Latino.
Interesting. But feels odd in a paper that routinely promotes black vicimhood and classifies, based on an article here less than a week ago, anyone that is not African American as 'white.'
So NYTimes, which is it. Who is white? And how many races do you recognize? This paper has become racist.
So NYTimes, which is it. Who is white? And how many races do you recognize? This paper has become racist.
5
Well, is it "Latino" or "Hispanic?" A lot of people who are associated with those terms resent it, partly because of the stereotyping mentioned in the article, but also because they would either prefer to be associated with their own home country, such as Mexico or Columbia, for instance, and don't like being lumped together with anyone who happens to speak Spanish. Many others consider themselves as white people who just happen to have Spanish as their native language - like Italian immigrants who are white but happen to have Italian as their native tongue. Many would simply prefer to be called Americans.
It's like the word "Anglo." It's a label that only applies to some white people, and even then, how many white people are actually descended from the ancient Anglo-Saxon tribe? Even most people from Great Britain these days probably aren't, or are so totally mixed in DNA that no one could tell exactly what their ancestry might have been. Italians or Greeks? Don't think so!
So, regardless, we need to be careful with these labels. It can and does lead to unfair stereotyping as pointed out in the article.
It's like the word "Anglo." It's a label that only applies to some white people, and even then, how many white people are actually descended from the ancient Anglo-Saxon tribe? Even most people from Great Britain these days probably aren't, or are so totally mixed in DNA that no one could tell exactly what their ancestry might have been. Italians or Greeks? Don't think so!
So, regardless, we need to be careful with these labels. It can and does lead to unfair stereotyping as pointed out in the article.
3
RichD - Racial labeling means big money to those who use it to divide and conquer. An entire industry has developed around racial labeling and it's making some people very wealthy. Follow the money!
2
@ Tired of Hypocrisy - yeah, all those race hucksters are making WAY too much money; they're a more important problem than the captains of industry and rentier class offshoring operations to minimize taxes. Man, we should really focus on those race hucksters than have sold the country and off-shored jobs for working class white Americans... Oh wait, NO.
Defining “Latino” is easy. In the Americas, “Latino” is short for the Spanish word “latinoamericano.” It simply means a resident of Latin America or their descendants living in the United States. Latin America consists of the countries in the Americas where one of the Romance Languages derived from Latin is spoken because they were once colonies of Spain, Portugal or France. Most, but not all, Latin Americans are Hispanic because most are Spanish-speaking residents of countries that were once Spanish colonies. The Brazilians and Haitians are notable exceptions because they are residents of countries that were colonies of Portugal and France. They are Latinos because they are residents of Latin America, but they are not Hispanics because they speak Portuguese and French. Race or skin color doesn’t matter. Latinos and Hispanics can be of any races or any combination of races. Wikipedia lists the 26 countries that make up Latin America at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America
2
I suggest you read section 1.1 "Origin" of the Wikipedia article you posted. The term "Latin America" is not as innocuous as you think it is.
This is an eternal non-issue. America’s obsession with racial classification knows no limits.
Once Hispanics (Hispanos)/Latinos (Latins) suffered the morphing from linguistic categories into racial classification, the confusion between race, nationality and language is a Gordian knot.
"Hispanic" comes from Ispano ≥ Ispania ≥ España ≥ Spain. Those who descended from Spanish speaking ancestors.
Latinos are those whose ancestors spoke Latin languages: Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Romanian.
Latin American is anyone born in Latin America, anywhere in south of the Río Grande, including the Caribbean islands of Cuba, Puerto Rico and the half of Hispaniola (Spanish: La Española) that is the Dominican Republic.
It would be helpful for young people to understand that "Mexican", for example, is a nationality, not a race. Asian, White, Black, Native American are races.
A Chicano is a Mexican or someone of Mexican heritage living in the US. There are no "Chicanos" (a contraction of Chicago, where the herds of beef cattle ended for slaughter and distribution, and Mexicanos, the Mexican cowboys who herded them ) in México.
Latin Americans (Latinos), Hispanics (Hispanos) are NOT a race. They can be of ANY race or a combination of any or all.
I am Puerto Rican of mixed heritage by birth; Caucasian; both Hispanic and Latin(o) – first language, Spanish; US (soon Canadian) citizen, Canadian resident.
There is nothing to discuss except Americans' obsession with race .
Once Hispanics (Hispanos)/Latinos (Latins) suffered the morphing from linguistic categories into racial classification, the confusion between race, nationality and language is a Gordian knot.
"Hispanic" comes from Ispano ≥ Ispania ≥ España ≥ Spain. Those who descended from Spanish speaking ancestors.
Latinos are those whose ancestors spoke Latin languages: Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Romanian.
Latin American is anyone born in Latin America, anywhere in south of the Río Grande, including the Caribbean islands of Cuba, Puerto Rico and the half of Hispaniola (Spanish: La Española) that is the Dominican Republic.
It would be helpful for young people to understand that "Mexican", for example, is a nationality, not a race. Asian, White, Black, Native American are races.
A Chicano is a Mexican or someone of Mexican heritage living in the US. There are no "Chicanos" (a contraction of Chicago, where the herds of beef cattle ended for slaughter and distribution, and Mexicanos, the Mexican cowboys who herded them ) in México.
Latin Americans (Latinos), Hispanics (Hispanos) are NOT a race. They can be of ANY race or a combination of any or all.
I am Puerto Rican of mixed heritage by birth; Caucasian; both Hispanic and Latin(o) – first language, Spanish; US (soon Canadian) citizen, Canadian resident.
There is nothing to discuss except Americans' obsession with race .
11
Haitians are also Latinos because they speak French, one of the Romance languages derived from Latin. Haiti is a Latin American country. Wikipedia lists the 26 countries that make up Latin America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America.
1
@ William Case
TOUCHÉ! I stand corrected. So are all other natives of the French Caribbean. They are indeed Latin, though NOT Hispanics.
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I fell for the confusion myself, so widespread it is.
But the young people's responses here don't betray the slightest clue as to any awareness of what the source of their lack of identifiable ethnicity is. If they left the race-obsessed USA for a day, they would see where they have been detoured into false analogies.
Mince geographics what you will, that Haiti is part of Hispaniola is clear, that French is a Latin language is clear, my point is clear. Neither Hispanic nor Latino are races but linguistic classifications. This entire concept is about racist attitudes that encourage the race-based semantics of an inherently racist society.
Show me ONE instant when an American refers to a Haitian or anyone from the French Virgin Islands or French Guiana as "Latino".
“The most dangerous worldview is the worldview of those who have not viewed the world.”
~ ALEXANDER VON HUMBOLDT
(1769 – 1859)
Prussian geographer, naturalist and explorer
TOUCHÉ! I stand corrected. So are all other natives of the French Caribbean. They are indeed Latin, though NOT Hispanics.
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I fell for the confusion myself, so widespread it is.
But the young people's responses here don't betray the slightest clue as to any awareness of what the source of their lack of identifiable ethnicity is. If they left the race-obsessed USA for a day, they would see where they have been detoured into false analogies.
Mince geographics what you will, that Haiti is part of Hispaniola is clear, that French is a Latin language is clear, my point is clear. Neither Hispanic nor Latino are races but linguistic classifications. This entire concept is about racist attitudes that encourage the race-based semantics of an inherently racist society.
Show me ONE instant when an American refers to a Haitian or anyone from the French Virgin Islands or French Guiana as "Latino".
“The most dangerous worldview is the worldview of those who have not viewed the world.”
~ ALEXANDER VON HUMBOLDT
(1769 – 1859)
Prussian geographer, naturalist and explorer
2
Not all folks who are of Mexican descent in the USA are or identify as Chicanos. Your explanation of the etymology of the word Chicano is also way off--while folks don't agree exactly, I was told growing up that it comes from Indigenous Nahualt pronunciation of Mexico where the X is a sh sound but there are other possible origins. One clue that it did not come from a place-name like Chicago is that Chicano is used as a self identifier.
Wake up Times Editors and read the comments. We are many who find your belief in the existence of "races" as named by the US Census Bureau to be rather primitive or as former USCB Director Kenneth Prewitt wrote in the Times in 2013, these designations are ARCHAIC.
If you the Editors cannot give us a critical review then why should we bother reading the endless articles with "Race" in the headline?
My answer: We should read only the comments to see how many readers are trying to get you, the Editors, to wake up.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
If you the Editors cannot give us a critical review then why should we bother reading the endless articles with "Race" in the headline?
My answer: We should read only the comments to see how many readers are trying to get you, the Editors, to wake up.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
6
This is my third submission, none appearing yet.
1) After reading many of the now 69 comments, I ask all 69 to define "race" and how you believe you fit into an American "race" category, if at all.
2) You the authors tell me that this is about how "Latinos grapple with defining their ethnic and racial identities. Why don't you state this more truthfully. If you emigrate to America then for perhaps the first time in your life you learn that you must assign yourself to a race/ethnicity (slash because there is nothing scientific or logical about these concepts in USCB language). What do you think about that? (Kenneth Prewitt tells me the Census will assign you to a race if you, like me, refuse to check a box.)
3) My logo has a Vermont license plate on top of a Swedish flag, and the text on the plate says IMWHOIM (just like Bernie Sanders). Why not ask these individuals this simple/not so simple question: Can you tell me about yourself so I can know better if we might become friends?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen USA-SE
1) After reading many of the now 69 comments, I ask all 69 to define "race" and how you believe you fit into an American "race" category, if at all.
2) You the authors tell me that this is about how "Latinos grapple with defining their ethnic and racial identities. Why don't you state this more truthfully. If you emigrate to America then for perhaps the first time in your life you learn that you must assign yourself to a race/ethnicity (slash because there is nothing scientific or logical about these concepts in USCB language). What do you think about that? (Kenneth Prewitt tells me the Census will assign you to a race if you, like me, refuse to check a box.)
3) My logo has a Vermont license plate on top of a Swedish flag, and the text on the plate says IMWHOIM (just like Bernie Sanders). Why not ask these individuals this simple/not so simple question: Can you tell me about yourself so I can know better if we might become friends?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen USA-SE
6
"If you emigrate to America then for perhaps the first time in your life you learn that you must assign yourself to a race/ethnicity"
Very true. Immigrants easily grasp the concept of Latino/Hispanic as a label for people from Latin America. Ask "with what race or ethnicity do you identify" and you get confusion. Some have learned to choose white as the "race" to be, once they see that being identified as not white is not a good thing.
Very true. Immigrants easily grasp the concept of Latino/Hispanic as a label for people from Latin America. Ask "with what race or ethnicity do you identify" and you get confusion. Some have learned to choose white as the "race" to be, once they see that being identified as not white is not a good thing.
2
Recent advances in DNA analysis has destroyed the assertion that race is a social construct. We now know which genes or combination of genes produce racial phenotypes and understand how these genetic variation occurred as human populations groups evolved in geographic isolation. It is true that some anthropologists and biologists reject “race” as a valid biological classification because there is more genetic variation within racial groups than between racial groups, but they refer instead to “ancestral groups,” which amount to about the same thing. The controversy lies in what importance—if any—should be given to these differences. While there are medical implications, so far no genes or combination of genes have been positively identified that determine intelligence or behavior in groups or individuals.
1
@ William Case: the assertion that you make, that "DNA analysis has destroyed the assertion that race is a social construct" needs support because the only people I see talking about this is a lunatic fringe in the sciences. If you have legitimate sources, then please do post them.
1
Identities between Latino groups and Asian groups are quite interesting. Each group categorizes themselves and their is a lot of jealousy within those groups about that identity, country, educations, etc.
2
And white or black or Native folks have none of that kind of categorizing or jealousy, amirite? All groups do this kind of thing. Latina/o and Asians are nothing special in that regard.
"Latino" is more about family and social interaction. Gringos (non-Latinos, of Northern and far-eastern European origin) are more cerebral in their reaction to social situations; whereas, Latinos are more sympathetic. Gringos are socially rigid according law and their ideas of what is "right"; whereas Latinos react as fellow members of vulnerable society and as if their co-participant in a socially awkward situation were a member of their own family. Gringos seek "just" but confrontational, win-lose solutions, Latinos settle on non-confrontational, humanly satisfying scenarios that are win-win.
I was once a quilntessential Gringo, but after 35 years in Latin America, not so much.
I was once a quilntessential Gringo, but after 35 years in Latin America, not so much.
4
Generalizations much?
Listen to the very first speaker:
"I think the Latino identity is pretty confusing to me because oftentimes I find it in a little check box on a form so I’m confused on whether I should put Latino or Hispanic but I’m Mexican."
If this series is about "Race" why is the following question never posed to one or more of the individuals we meet?
What do you think about the American practice of telling you that you belong to a "race" and that you must put yourself in an American "race" box?
Why is this question never, never asked?
Former US Census Bureau Director Kenneth Prewitt asks this question in his essential book "What Is Your Race? The Census and Our Flawed Efforts to Classify Americans"
Listen to these distinctively different individuals and, if you really listen and look you will see how absurd it is to put them in a "race" box. Each is for me an American I would like to meet and talk with. And I would ask them if they have come to the USA from another country "Did you know you belonged to a 'race' before you came to America?"
Read Chimamanda Ngotze Adichie's "Americanah" if you have trouble understanding "where I am coming from".
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA SE
"I think the Latino identity is pretty confusing to me because oftentimes I find it in a little check box on a form so I’m confused on whether I should put Latino or Hispanic but I’m Mexican."
If this series is about "Race" why is the following question never posed to one or more of the individuals we meet?
What do you think about the American practice of telling you that you belong to a "race" and that you must put yourself in an American "race" box?
Why is this question never, never asked?
Former US Census Bureau Director Kenneth Prewitt asks this question in his essential book "What Is Your Race? The Census and Our Flawed Efforts to Classify Americans"
Listen to these distinctively different individuals and, if you really listen and look you will see how absurd it is to put them in a "race" box. Each is for me an American I would like to meet and talk with. And I would ask them if they have come to the USA from another country "Did you know you belonged to a 'race' before you came to America?"
Read Chimamanda Ngotze Adichie's "Americanah" if you have trouble understanding "where I am coming from".
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA SE
5
Mexican is a nationality. If your are not a Mexican citizen, you are not a Mexican. If you are a citizen of Mexico, your are a Mexican. How could you find this confusing? If you are an American whose ancestors were Mexican, your are a Mexican American, not a Mexican. The reason that Census Bureau asks Americans if they are Hispanic or Latino is that Hispanic/Latino leaders successfully lobbied for recognition as a "protected minority group." The Census Bureau uses the information to determine how Hispanics/Latinos are doing relative to other group. Mexico also collect demographic information about its residents, including race and ethnicity.
4
'...What do you think about the American practice of telling you that you belong to a "race" and that you must put yourself in an American "race" box?...'
Affirmation Action and many other government programs are biased towards certain races in order to compensate for the outcome of historical discrimination.
If that information is not provided by a citizen, the field will be leveled and merit would be the only criteria used.
Affirmation Action and many other government programs are biased towards certain races in order to compensate for the outcome of historical discrimination.
If that information is not provided by a citizen, the field will be leveled and merit would be the only criteria used.
@ William Case - WC thanks for the reply, I know all that except for knowing about the lobbying to become a protected group. Thanks for the note that Mexico uses race. Would like to know more. In any case, I have cited the work of former USCB director who thinks that the system is archaic as do I. And my main point is expressed very well by all the people who speak in these conversations. If I am told - this person is Hispanic and all that means is somebody in the family speaks Spanish that is not very useful.
Larry
Larry
Listen and look and then think. Think about what? Not about what "race" each individual belongs to but what makes each person someone you would like to talk to, know more about.
Given that chance I would simply say, tell me more, what's on your mind, what do you want out of life?
But no, as Dorothy Roberts tells us in her book "Fatal Invention", a "typical" American has been taught to put people in "race" boxes and wants to know, "What is your race?". So look again at each face, and think of the absurdity of putting each of these strong individuals into a racist race box.
When will the New York Times give us for the first time the first article that begins a conversation about race, not about racism?
The lead in that article must be: "Why does the USA preserve a system of assigning people to "races" each the "Fatal Invention" of racists?
Who will be the first to give me an answer?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
Given that chance I would simply say, tell me more, what's on your mind, what do you want out of life?
But no, as Dorothy Roberts tells us in her book "Fatal Invention", a "typical" American has been taught to put people in "race" boxes and wants to know, "What is your race?". So look again at each face, and think of the absurdity of putting each of these strong individuals into a racist race box.
When will the New York Times give us for the first time the first article that begins a conversation about race, not about racism?
The lead in that article must be: "Why does the USA preserve a system of assigning people to "races" each the "Fatal Invention" of racists?
Who will be the first to give me an answer?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
2
It is the need to measure. This is the paradigm of modern bureaucrats, categorize and measure everything. The belief is that through measurement you can control or at least justify your attempt to control. Without measurement, how would the social engineers justify trying to re-make society in their image.
In the past I admit I have checked the box. I now leave them blank or check the box that says "prefer not to answer", which is, by the way, appearing on more and more forms. IMHO racial quotas and the attempt to establish them are crimes against humanity.
In the past I admit I have checked the box. I now leave them blank or check the box that says "prefer not to answer", which is, by the way, appearing on more and more forms. IMHO racial quotas and the attempt to establish them are crimes against humanity.
2
Well, who's telling the "typical American" to categorize people according to the Census-approved "racial" categories? Usually, it's the very people who are always condemning us for real or imaginary "racism" and insisting that it is "racist" to NOT categorize people that way!
When mixed-race adults demanded a "multiracial" census category during the Clinton administration, it was the NAACP who led the charge against it. The NAACP insisted that "race" was biological, inflexible and mutually exclusive.
When mixed-race adults demanded a "multiracial" census category during the Clinton administration, it was the NAACP who led the charge against it. The NAACP insisted that "race" was biological, inflexible and mutually exclusive.
3
I never thought of myself as anything further than a Cuban exile daughter. However, in entertainment people are classified. You see, 94% of the product is run by three or four heterogeneus Hollywood agencies who package top inside talent in projects leaving the rest outside of consideration.
Hispanics or Latinos, etc., are segregated so the powers-that-be can hire diversity departments who dole out annual "access" programs. Emphasis on DOLE. Individuals are asked to submit through clunky online forms. Time passes. One never meets anyone and after a year's time someone gets selected God-knows-how and that lucky person gets to observe the real writers or directors at work. The studios, networks, large festivaks all make great hoopla about this "entree" into the industry.
But is not the reason why I make my films on a zero budget, joined the writers guild during the bad old days, and spent three-and-a-half years getting a worthless/uber expensive UCLA MFA because despite my 75 hard-earned credits and my Masters, I do not qualify to teach at the university level, as those jobs go to friends. In fact, I've had not one job interview in academia in the four years since my graduation in 2012.
Migdia Chinea UCLA MFA TFT 2012 - long-time member of the WGAW - Listed on IMDb and other places.
Hispanics or Latinos, etc., are segregated so the powers-that-be can hire diversity departments who dole out annual "access" programs. Emphasis on DOLE. Individuals are asked to submit through clunky online forms. Time passes. One never meets anyone and after a year's time someone gets selected God-knows-how and that lucky person gets to observe the real writers or directors at work. The studios, networks, large festivaks all make great hoopla about this "entree" into the industry.
But is not the reason why I make my films on a zero budget, joined the writers guild during the bad old days, and spent three-and-a-half years getting a worthless/uber expensive UCLA MFA because despite my 75 hard-earned credits and my Masters, I do not qualify to teach at the university level, as those jobs go to friends. In fact, I've had not one job interview in academia in the four years since my graduation in 2012.
Migdia Chinea UCLA MFA TFT 2012 - long-time member of the WGAW - Listed on IMDb and other places.
2
"How does one identity get forged from such an assortment of experience?"
The same way all people of European descent (from Scandinavians to Russians to Greeks to Portuguese to Irish and Protestants, Catholics and Jews) were lumped together as "white" thus totally ignoring their individuality.
The same way all people of European descent (from Scandinavians to Russians to Greeks to Portuguese to Irish and Protestants, Catholics and Jews) were lumped together as "white" thus totally ignoring their individuality.
4
Europeans are actually more culturally diverse than Latinos because most Latinos speak Spanish while Europeans speak a multitude of different languages, including Spanish. Their language diversity explain why Europeans never insisted on bilingual education programs.
1
I applied to HireArt, touted as the way to "get a job" by Pulitzer Price New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman in his May 29, 2013 column "How to Get a Job", linked here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/opinion/friedman-how-to-get-a-job.html...
HireArt was started by a school friend of Friedman's own daughter. In short, I was sent jobs in dog sitting and house cleaning -- I attach their verbatim emails to me. Examples: "You will be working to service the families and dogs we like to call our family..." and "Our teams move from home to home ensuring each home is spotlessly clean... no corner undusted, no sheet wrinkled."
But there is no outrage about this discrimination that eats away at your self esteem. No one is interested in bringing it to Light. Thomas Friedman never responded to my letter regarding plugging his daughter in his column. The NYT doesn't care that a columnist uses his column to promote his daughter. The website for HireArt is still there with promotional pictures of white people.
And now the New York Times gives us this segregated little corner of space. How very generous.
Migdia Chinea UCLA MFA TFT 2012
Envoyé de Migdia's iPhone
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/opinion/friedman-how-to-get-a-job.html...
HireArt was started by a school friend of Friedman's own daughter. In short, I was sent jobs in dog sitting and house cleaning -- I attach their verbatim emails to me. Examples: "You will be working to service the families and dogs we like to call our family..." and "Our teams move from home to home ensuring each home is spotlessly clean... no corner undusted, no sheet wrinkled."
But there is no outrage about this discrimination that eats away at your self esteem. No one is interested in bringing it to Light. Thomas Friedman never responded to my letter regarding plugging his daughter in his column. The NYT doesn't care that a columnist uses his column to promote his daughter. The website for HireArt is still there with promotional pictures of white people.
And now the New York Times gives us this segregated little corner of space. How very generous.
Migdia Chinea UCLA MFA TFT 2012
Envoyé de Migdia's iPhone
6
Many op-eds and letters to the NYTines later and the Times decided to give us a segregated little space. Among the many letters I write with no response, there was the one on NYTimes columnist Thomas Friedman touting Hire Art (started by Friedman's own daughter) as the job search wave of the future. I sent in my video and within two weeks I had been matched to several job referrals -- as hotel maid, nanny and domestic. When I explained that I had a UCLA MFA in film 2012, I was told my referrals were a result of algorithms. Interesting, huh?
Instead of this, why can't we be part of society at large? Seriously.
Migdia Chinea UCLA MFA TFT 2012 long-time member of the Writers Guild of Anerica, West.
Instead of this, why can't we be part of society at large? Seriously.
Migdia Chinea UCLA MFA TFT 2012 long-time member of the Writers Guild of Anerica, West.
6
Just ask where do the names : " San Francisco, Los angeles, Santa Fe,
Nevada, Arizona, Texas, California,etc, come from. And if those names were given by the Spaniards ( like El Zorro ) and later Mexicans . Where are those people ? Driven away ' Killed ? Bought off ? Assimilated ?.........
Nevada, Arizona, Texas, California,etc, come from. And if those names were given by the Spaniards ( like El Zorro ) and later Mexicans . Where are those people ? Driven away ' Killed ? Bought off ? Assimilated ?.........
3
Zorro was the secret identity of Don Diego de la Vega, a fictional character created in 1919 by pulp writer Johnston McCulley. He was a Spanish royalist who fought against Mexican rule after Mexico won its independence from Spain. About 50,000 to 80,000 Mexicans lived in the American Southwest prior to the Texas Revolution in 1836 and the Mexican Cession in 1848. They weren't killed or driven off. They remained in place and assimilated. At the time of the Texas Revolution, there were about 30,000 Anglos and about 3,500 Hispanics, or Tejanos, residing in Texas. About 25 percent of the Tejanos were "federalists" who supported the revolution while about 25 percent were "centralists" who supported Santa Anna. The other 50 percent remained neutral and waited to see which side would win. There was no exodus of Tejanos after the Texas Revolution. Virtually all of them stayed and became citizens of the Texas Republic. The same was true in New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California after the Mexican War. The exodus has been a movement of millions from Mexico to the United States
1
Interesting comment William. The same is true of those now called Native-Americans living in Michigan when it was a state. They weren't driven out, killed off, or anything like that at all. They simply stated where they were, went to the new schools, opened businesses, and adopted more modern ways. Lucky for some who owed 40 acre farms, which have recently been deemed "reservations" so they could build casinos on them! No "trail of tears" here. More like trail of money and improved standard of living!
1
While the subject is Race and Latinos, would the latter please stop referring to me as an "Anglo". No one in my family is from England or Saxony. My family is from Poland.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
10
"Anglo" is used by many Hispanic/Latinos to designate someone's mother tongue identity (English) as opposed to their complexion. It's not meant to refer to your family's country of origin. As the video clearly shows, Latinos reflect the full spectrum of skin color, so the traditional North American binary of white/black doesn't cut it.
This has been true for a long time of course. In the late 1800s/early 1900s, immigrants from Italy, Ireland, and eastern Europe were frequently referred to as "black." As they assimilated into the dominant culture, they gradually became "white." (Eric Foner, among others, has written extensively on this.)
Obviously, all of these labels (Latino, Anglo, Asian, etc.) are inadequate and create considerable internal conflict in those who wish to affirm the full complexity of who they are.
This has been true for a long time of course. In the late 1800s/early 1900s, immigrants from Italy, Ireland, and eastern Europe were frequently referred to as "black." As they assimilated into the dominant culture, they gradually became "white." (Eric Foner, among others, has written extensively on this.)
Obviously, all of these labels (Latino, Anglo, Asian, etc.) are inadequate and create considerable internal conflict in those who wish to affirm the full complexity of who they are.
2
Although "Anglo" originally referred to the Anglo Saxons, it now also means any white American who is not Hispanic. Since most Mexicans Americans self-identify as white, they used the term Anglo to refer to other white Americans. Most Mexican American would feel insulted if you implied they are not white. Most are no darker skinned than other Americans of Southern-European descent. But your point is well taken. The easiest way to increase diversity would be to acknowledge all U.S. ethnic groups, not just Hispanics or Mexican Americans. We would have Irish Americans, German Americans, Anglo Americans, Russian Americans, Polish Americans, Chinese Americans, Arab Americans, Dutch American, Swedish Americas and dozens of other ethnic groups, including Manx Americans, my own diminutive ethnic group. Instead of a minority, Mexican Americans would be the largest or second largest ethnic group.
So is English the "mother tongue identity" of someone of Polish ancestry? No.
2
I'm an Italian-American who lived my 40s in Argentina. According to US definitions, Argentines are Hispanic, but racially, the majority of them are identical to me. Our grandfathers just got on different boats. The whole "Latino" label is absurd. A white, Euro-argentine has no racial link to a Peruvian Inca or a Mexican Mayan-- or any other noble race found in Mexico, Central or South America.
9
Hispanics are an ethic group, not a race. They can be of any race or combination of races. “Hispanic refers to a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race. The term "Latino" applies to all residents of Latin America, including Argentina. It relates to geography, not to race. The Incas, Mayans and other indigenous tribes are Amerindians, the descendants of Asiatic tribesmen who migrated to the Americas from Asia. They are normally not classified as Hispanic or Latino.
1
What you're implying is that anyone who is not indigenous to the Americans, therefore can't be Hispanic or Latino. Do you have any idea how absurd that is? Where do you think the terms Hispanic or Latino comes from? Latino - > Latin language. Hispanic -> Hispania (Iberain peninsula during the Roman Republic and Empire). These names derives from European cultures. They are not indigenous to the Americas.
If we follow your logic, then Spanish can't be Hispanic or Latino either.
I know you don't want to be identified as Latino, because you likely see it as a disparaging term, but the indigenous people's never had a choice on the term to begin with, yet they're all lumped up with Europeans, due to European colonialism. You break, you buy it.
Also, Italian is not a race, it is a nationality. Even Italy has mixture of ethnicity. There is no such thing as a "pure" Italian. You're not even technically Italian, since again, Italian is a nationality. You are a descendant of Italian heritage, but you don't hold Italian citizenship (considering you live in Argentina). I also assume you speak Spanish, *maybe* speak Italian, maybe. Big maybe.
If we follow your logic, then Spanish can't be Hispanic or Latino either.
I know you don't want to be identified as Latino, because you likely see it as a disparaging term, but the indigenous people's never had a choice on the term to begin with, yet they're all lumped up with Europeans, due to European colonialism. You break, you buy it.
Also, Italian is not a race, it is a nationality. Even Italy has mixture of ethnicity. There is no such thing as a "pure" Italian. You're not even technically Italian, since again, Italian is a nationality. You are a descendant of Italian heritage, but you don't hold Italian citizenship (considering you live in Argentina). I also assume you speak Spanish, *maybe* speak Italian, maybe. Big maybe.
Holy Cow ... I thought the Philippines have more Spanish speakers .. and how about Spain, and how about Indonesia (not sure about that ..)
1
Few Filipinos speak Spanish, despite their country's former status as a Spanish colony. Their native language is Tagalog.
As many of your readers point out, race should only be a reference to the human race. While I'm sure the NYT means well when it uses the term, it is only perpetuating the use of language which is discriminatory and divisive.
7
About twenty years ago, while I was I traveling in New Mexico, a person told me rather proudly that his family had resided around Santa Fe for generations. "Just think about it, my last name is Baca", he said. I could not gather why he was so proud of having a last name that sounded like "cow", so I smiled politely.
I learned, many years later, that the illustrious Baca family arrived in New Mexico in 1600. I also learned that The Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe. built in 1610, is the oldest continuously occupied public building in the United States, and that the original state constitution of 1912 provided for a bilingual government.
Old stuff? Sure, but relevant. Hispanics helped building a vast part of this country, they are not just a bunch of recent economic migrants in search of an "identity", as the press likes to portray.
I learned, many years later, that the illustrious Baca family arrived in New Mexico in 1600. I also learned that The Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe. built in 1610, is the oldest continuously occupied public building in the United States, and that the original state constitution of 1912 provided for a bilingual government.
Old stuff? Sure, but relevant. Hispanics helped building a vast part of this country, they are not just a bunch of recent economic migrants in search of an "identity", as the press likes to portray.
5
"they are not just a bunch of recent economic migrants in search of an "identity", as the press likes to portray."
Excellent point. Now can I ask readers, do you think the people descended from those long term occupants of the land now called the United States, identify politically with "undocumented immigrants"/recent arrivals from Mexico? The answer is no.
Excellent point. Now can I ask readers, do you think the people descended from those long term occupants of the land now called the United States, identify politically with "undocumented immigrants"/recent arrivals from Mexico? The answer is no.
3
A moving documentary of why America is so extraordinary. When returning to New York from Europe as an adolescent on the cusp of adulthood, I had trouble fitting in, until a year went by and I joined the international community for children. We have a workshop for speakers, open to the Public where you begin with an 'ice-breaker'; an introduction.
You have only six minutes for this first exercise, and if you think it is easy, think again. One man from Peru was telling us about his first girlfriend twenty minutes on-wards and my mentor from Guyana was smiling. I joined because my friend from Senegal thought it would be good for me; I was the only American and I told her that I speak 'too much' already, but I caved in.
If you are interested in people, and want to learn and know more about them, America is the place to be. The brilliant artist Norman Rockwell gave us a portrait of Americans in the 40s. We are a much richer and diverse culture today, and we are going to have to put up a fight to keep expanding it.
For those of you who have encountered discrimination, it hurts all of us in some way, and I am not giving in to my friend from Uruguay of four decades who told me when we found ourselves in an All-White community the other day, 'This is the Real America so get used to it!'.
We should all take Latin at school and another language.
You have only six minutes for this first exercise, and if you think it is easy, think again. One man from Peru was telling us about his first girlfriend twenty minutes on-wards and my mentor from Guyana was smiling. I joined because my friend from Senegal thought it would be good for me; I was the only American and I told her that I speak 'too much' already, but I caved in.
If you are interested in people, and want to learn and know more about them, America is the place to be. The brilliant artist Norman Rockwell gave us a portrait of Americans in the 40s. We are a much richer and diverse culture today, and we are going to have to put up a fight to keep expanding it.
For those of you who have encountered discrimination, it hurts all of us in some way, and I am not giving in to my friend from Uruguay of four decades who told me when we found ourselves in an All-White community the other day, 'This is the Real America so get used to it!'.
We should all take Latin at school and another language.
1
@ Miss Ley - Hi, Ley my real Sweden is far more diverse than the parts of America I have lived in, all of them in the northeast. As you probably remember from reading my comments, over the past 15 years I have met people from countless parts of countless countries. Not a one of them thinks in terms of race but they do speak of ethnicity, nationality, religious ackground but nobody puts them in a racist race box. But in America?
As Ta-Nehisi Coates writes in Between The World And Me,
“But race is the child of racism, not the father. And the process of naming “the people” has never been a matter of genealogy and physiognomy so much as one of hierarchy."
Not many Times commenters seem to understand this, how about you?
Larry
As Ta-Nehisi Coates writes in Between The World And Me,
“But race is the child of racism, not the father. And the process of naming “the people” has never been a matter of genealogy and physiognomy so much as one of hierarchy."
Not many Times commenters seem to understand this, how about you?
Larry
1
So I asked the 'Guard" (security) at the first class mall in Cabo San Lucas what his job was. He answered that it was mainly to "redirect Indians" (as in do not let them in) He said they were easy to ID because of their skin color. They do speak spanish (I bought trinkets from them on the beach) but...Gotta love it!
I am the descendant of immigrants from Spain. My husband is the same on his father's side and his Mother's parents came from Mexico. I am fair with green eyes. I have traveled to Spain and met my relatives there and many have the same hair and eyes. I eat chorizo and tortillas and understand and read Spanish. And yet, white people love to tell me that I am not a Latino nor Hispanic because I am "white". Well, when a hiring manager sees that long, double VERY hispanic name, they usually don't stop to think if I am "white", they usually wonder if I am "legal". I am a criminal defense attorney. It seems that a client's immigration status is never questioned unless they have an Hispanic name. There are so many misconceptions and prejudice against Hispanics in this country it is amazing. And I am privy to much of it because, until my name is revealed, I am just another white girl. And it continually amazes me what white people say to other white people without giving one thought to the other person's cultural or ethnic background.
7
Mexicans are Latinos because Mexico is a Latin American country. Mexican are also Hispanic because Mexico was once a Spanish colony and its people speak Spanish. It has nothing to do with race, skin-color or eye color.
2
Latino is a broad cultural group, not a race. This is one of the very problems we have when talking about race in this country. We constantly conflate race and culture. And usually use the racial term (black, white, etc) where we should almost always be using a cultural term (African American, European American, etc). In fact the are no actual races. Race is not a scientifically legitimate notion. The conversation about race is so confused that it has rendered itself meaningless, circular, and even regressive.
3
Thanks for this! As a "white" latino with a black hispanic mother I connect with this article on a personal level. Sometimes people ask if I'm adopted because Im pale with straight hair and she is dark with extremely curly hair. Another issue in the Latino community praises light skin and ignore how diverse they really are. An example of this paradox is when my black hispanic cousins had only white dolls.
Many people fail to realize that a large group of white hispanics are rejected by their communities because they looking too white and not included in the white community for being hispanic. This causes a internal conflict that many hispanics
(including myself) deal with today. It is important to realize the problem isn't only how the white community perceives hispanics, but alway how hispanics preview themselves.
Many people fail to realize that a large group of white hispanics are rejected by their communities because they looking too white and not included in the white community for being hispanic. This causes a internal conflict that many hispanics
(including myself) deal with today. It is important to realize the problem isn't only how the white community perceives hispanics, but alway how hispanics preview themselves.
3
Where are we going with this endless revival of race and identity obsession? This video illustrates the ridiculous mental torture all this is generating. Is the goal to become Bosnia? Because that's where this is going to lead. Yes we all come from different backgrounds but we are Americans.
5
The "Hispanic" or "Latino" identity is institutionally enshrined in the U.S., a prism and prison, forcing people to see themselves and be seen by others as apart from the mainstream majority. I see no reason why I'm supposed to view Latinos as more different from me than, say, Italian-Americans or Irish-Americans -- except that the division is embedded in the census and other forms, and it's constantly reinforced. Our government, educational institutions and media inevitably, interminably, unquestioningly divide humanity into five utterly artificial categories. Let's take these so-called "racial" categories out of the census and myriad other questionnaires and applications, and we can begin to chip away at the mental stone walls we have erected.
4
The United States did not force Mexican Americans to assume the label "Hispanic." Mexican American leaders fought for recognition as a protected majority group so they could enjoy the affirmative action benefits as African Americans. As a result, they get affirmative action preference in federal hiring and college admissions and bilingual education programs. Many Americans thinks they should be treated the same as other U.S. ethnic group such as Irish Americans, Italian Americans, etc.
The United States did not invent the term "Latino," which derives from Latin America. The French coined the term "Latin America" when they conquered Mexico in the 1860s. They wanted to dispel the notion that the regional was a Spanish province. The United States did not invent the term "Hispanic." Ot os used throughout the world.
The United States did not invent the term "Latino," which derives from Latin America. The French coined the term "Latin America" when they conquered Mexico in the 1860s. They wanted to dispel the notion that the regional was a Spanish province. The United States did not invent the term "Hispanic." Ot os used throughout the world.
It's not a question of how these categories came to be; it's about their impact at present.
1
Hispanics are actually assimilating as fast or faster than European immigrants did in the 1800s. The number of native-born Hispanic Americans recently surpassed the number of foreign-born Hispanic Americans. Intermarriage between Hispanics and Anglos in Texas is a much the rule as the exception. I think there will be no distinction made between the two groups with a generation or two.
It would be interesting to discuss why billionaire Carlos Slim's heirs would qualify for affirmative action as Hispanics if they moved to America, considering that they are pure Lebanese Maronite by descent, with a great-grandfather, Pierre Gemayel, who founded the fascist Phalangist paramilitary of Lebanon and a great uncle who was the most notorious rightwing warlord in modern Lebanese history. When Slim's wife's uncle was assassinated in 1982 during Israel's invasion of Lebanon, setting off the Sabra and Shatila massacres perpetrated by his followers, the NYT obituary featured the great headline: "Bashir Gemayel Lived by the Sword."
http://www.unz.com/isteve/the-fascist-roots-of-the-nyts-financial-savior...
http://www.unz.com/isteve/the-fascist-roots-of-the-nyts-financial-savior...
1
Slim and family don't need assistance through affirmative action, but they are still Mexicans. Mexicans (or other Latin Americas) are not limited to Spanish and Indigenous ancestry. I had classmates, in Mexico, who had at least one parent of Chinese, Japanese, Lebanese, German, and French ancestry. There is a very large Japanese-Mexican community in Mexico City. There are Mexicans of Arab descent all over Mexico. Frida Kahlo's father was German. Does anybody doubt she's Mexican? And what about former Peruvian president Fujimori? He's of Japanese descent.
1
I realize this video is part of your series on race relations in the United States, but many of the same issues of identity and color are just as prevalent throughout Latin America. Years ago, I wrote a paper in grad school on the impact of the conquest on contemporary culture citing examples from art, literature, drama, poetry, etc., and across Mexico, Peru and Argentina. It is a theme that can be endlessly explored and confronted; but the more we can talk openly about it the better we can understand.
2
Does "race" exist? We each seem to define that label differently. For me, race is "like me" or "not like me." Like me = light skinned, over 50, woman, native American-English speaker, decently educated, comfortably middle-class. "Not like me" = everything else. I I understand others at least partially based on how much I understand our shared experiences. Did you grow up poor? I don't understand what that was like. Do you emigrate here from another country? I don't have that experience. I don't understand much of the experience of the current 20-somethings, or of ethnic Native Americans, or of Hispanics, Asians, or men. And the reverse is also true, to a greater or lesser extent. So perhaps we should all try to get better at listening to one another. I am trying.
1
Good grief! Race is not a biological concept.
In addition, people who speak Spanish are of many skin colors.
Why this racist (skinist) article?
The NY Times reporters should be a bit more discerning about this issue.
Instead, they foster these kinds of divisive, soap-opera notions.
They provide a journalistic circus for the feeble-minded.
Think for yourself?
In addition, people who speak Spanish are of many skin colors.
Why this racist (skinist) article?
The NY Times reporters should be a bit more discerning about this issue.
Instead, they foster these kinds of divisive, soap-opera notions.
They provide a journalistic circus for the feeble-minded.
Think for yourself?
4
We will always have discussions on "race" as long as the race hucksters and the race hustlers can make money off the difference. When we have perceived winners and perceived losers we have those who will make money from both sides, selling fear.
Next time you hear about "race" or read about "race" find out where the money is going. Find out who is paying for their side to be heard. Find out who has made an occupation out of speaking about or writing about "race." Entire businesses have been built on this most insignificant of divides.
Next time you hear about "race" or read about "race" find out where the money is going. Find out who is paying for their side to be heard. Find out who has made an occupation out of speaking about or writing about "race." Entire businesses have been built on this most insignificant of divides.
2
These are the arguments of racists projecting on non-whites. We will stop having conversations about race when people like you admit that there is racism and work to eliminate it.
It is not a fantasy that resumes from people with "ethnic" names are put at the bottom of the pile, regardless of qualifications. It is not a fantasy that Blacks and Latinos have a harder time getting credit and getting it at the same lower rates than whites of similar background. Those are just two examples of practices that limit opportunities for non-whites.
Will you work to make sure that all people are considered on the merits of their achievements and background, and not on their names and race?
It is not a fantasy that resumes from people with "ethnic" names are put at the bottom of the pile, regardless of qualifications. It is not a fantasy that Blacks and Latinos have a harder time getting credit and getting it at the same lower rates than whites of similar background. Those are just two examples of practices that limit opportunities for non-whites.
Will you work to make sure that all people are considered on the merits of their achievements and background, and not on their names and race?
1
blueberryintomatosoup - "Will you work to make sure that all people are considered on the merits of their achievements and background, and not on their names and race?"
It is obvious by your last question that you certainly don't get it! YES all people should be considered on the merits of their achievements and NOT on their race or ethnicity. Now please tell me how does discrimination toward some based upon affirmative action fit into that?
Oh and thank you very much for calling me a racist.
It is obvious by your last question that you certainly don't get it! YES all people should be considered on the merits of their achievements and NOT on their race or ethnicity. Now please tell me how does discrimination toward some based upon affirmative action fit into that?
Oh and thank you very much for calling me a racist.
The film was mostly about ethnicity not race. This is America. It's political foundations were primarily derived from white Caucasians transplanting much of their culture. The country will continue to change as time passes, but why would any rational person not expect the European influences to remain? Deal with it.
Heritage is fine and taking pride in your roots is an understandable part of your identity, but to refuse to assimilate into the culture of the country in which you live is asking for trouble.
If you can't make it in America, you likely won't make it anywhere.
Heritage is fine and taking pride in your roots is an understandable part of your identity, but to refuse to assimilate into the culture of the country in which you live is asking for trouble.
If you can't make it in America, you likely won't make it anywhere.
1
@ John S - You, John, are a rare commenter. In the NYT even those who write OpEds, the Stone, Charles Blow, and those who made this good video do not understand that "race" is something different from racism.
I have two submissions waiting. If they appear you might look to see one of the small number of Times commenters/authors who do not use race and racism as synonyms.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
I have two submissions waiting. If they appear you might look to see one of the small number of Times commenters/authors who do not use race and racism as synonyms.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
1
I just want to echo S.D. Keith's comments regarding this intense focus on race and ethnicity. I'm as Hispanic as President Obama is black, meaning I have a Hispanic father and a "white" mother. Beyond that acknowledgment, the amount of time I have spent agonizing over my racial and ethnic composition is virtually nil. Now, much of that may have to do with my being raised in a biracial household, but I suspect that many biracial households governed by politically left-leaning parents still cling strongly to the alleged importance of "identity." So, perhaps it was my being raised in a relatively conservative, biracial household that helped me to see beyond the superficial, not only in myself but also in others.
I don't say this with the intent of slighting liberals; yet, it is and always has been those on the American political left who, almost feverishly, press the importance of "identity." There are several reasons for this, some philosophical and some strategic, but regardless of the motive the end result is always the same: the factionalization or balkanization of the political community into groups whose claims are founded on the accidental features of nature. This is no less arbitrary, and no less divisive, than the blonde-haired/blue-eyed human paradigm advanced by Adolf Hitler — and substituting the superiority-inferiority distinction with the smiley face of "multiculturalism" doesn't change that.
I don't say this with the intent of slighting liberals; yet, it is and always has been those on the American political left who, almost feverishly, press the importance of "identity." There are several reasons for this, some philosophical and some strategic, but regardless of the motive the end result is always the same: the factionalization or balkanization of the political community into groups whose claims are founded on the accidental features of nature. This is no less arbitrary, and no less divisive, than the blonde-haired/blue-eyed human paradigm advanced by Adolf Hitler — and substituting the superiority-inferiority distinction with the smiley face of "multiculturalism" doesn't change that.
2
You gotta be kidding,right?
The entire right-wing, conservative republican, evangelical, Christian, Make America Great Again (translation: Make America White Again), southern strategy, coded/blatant word racist rhetoric (ala Trump, Palin, Hannitty, Beck, Limbaugh, et al), obstructionst, Tea Party, block the first black (oops biracial) President of the United States, lives and breathes on us and them mentality and racial politics.
The entire right-wing, conservative republican, evangelical, Christian, Make America Great Again (translation: Make America White Again), southern strategy, coded/blatant word racist rhetoric (ala Trump, Palin, Hannitty, Beck, Limbaugh, et al), obstructionst, Tea Party, block the first black (oops biracial) President of the United States, lives and breathes on us and them mentality and racial politics.
2
Let me tell you a story. In college I had several Nigerian friends, one almost as light as me because both grandfathers were Scottish. He agreed to help a friend move some furniture. They were going to use the friend's uncle's pickup truck. The uncle took one look at the Nigerian and said there was no way he was going to allow a Black into his vehicle.
Prior to that event I had talked to the Nigerians about joining the minority student group. They had no interest in the group. Why? They couldn't relate. They were not raised in the US and came from wealthy families, so they had not had experiences of racism directed at them. The day after the pick up incident they all joined the group.
Leftists did not invent the concept of identity. People in this country have been classified, whether they want to be or not, based on the categories European Americans have used for centuries to decide if a person is 100% human, if a person's mental and moral capacity are inferior to theirs, if a child has the right to attend the same school as their children, if a person has the right to swim in the same pool as them, if a person has the right to eat at the same restaurant as them, if a person should live or die for not knowing their place.
The Leftists continue to talk about identity because the issue is still, sadly, very relevant today.
Prior to that event I had talked to the Nigerians about joining the minority student group. They had no interest in the group. Why? They couldn't relate. They were not raised in the US and came from wealthy families, so they had not had experiences of racism directed at them. The day after the pick up incident they all joined the group.
Leftists did not invent the concept of identity. People in this country have been classified, whether they want to be or not, based on the categories European Americans have used for centuries to decide if a person is 100% human, if a person's mental and moral capacity are inferior to theirs, if a child has the right to attend the same school as their children, if a person has the right to swim in the same pool as them, if a person has the right to eat at the same restaurant as them, if a person should live or die for not knowing their place.
The Leftists continue to talk about identity because the issue is still, sadly, very relevant today.
2
Why did you take the time to specify that there is no universally agreed upon definition of "Latino" and you never do that with "black"? And don't cite the "one drop" nonsense since Latinos have plenty of "drops" of "black blood" and are are not labeled "black" unless they look black and absolutely wish it. A white-looking Latino is never insulted with the term "passing for white" (as if he were unworthy of the "honor").
8
Race or skin-color has nothing to do with being Latino. Latinos can be of any race. Actress Cameron Diaz is Latino. Any Latin American or anyone with Latin American ancestry is Latino.
2
"Latino is never insulted with the term "passing for white"
I can personally attest that this is not true. If you're a latino and you 'look' white, and speak proper and unaccented English, you will be accused of trying to pass for white when interacting with white people, especially from darker-skinned hispanics. "Acting white" is not just a label leveled at black people.
I can personally attest that this is not true. If you're a latino and you 'look' white, and speak proper and unaccented English, you will be accused of trying to pass for white when interacting with white people, especially from darker-skinned hispanics. "Acting white" is not just a label leveled at black people.
1
Well, for most of the 20th Century, Latinos were listed in the Census as "white" regardless of "race" or color. Why? Because Mexican-American organizations and the government of Mexico lobbied to make it so.
http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/Books/bid2344.htm
http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/Books/bid2344.htm
I was hoping to see at least one Brazilian in this video, again Brazilians were left out. While in theory we are part of the Latinos, we are constantly ignored in the conversation about Latinos. I always wonder why is this the case, if it's because we don't speak Spanish, or if it's another reason. I think it would be important to include Brazilians in this conversation about Latinos in the US.
8
Interesting point. I lived in Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro (I was born in Mexico), and every time this issue came up, the Brazilians I was speaking with resisted the idea that they were Latinos, just like the rest of Hispanic Americans. They insisted they were Brazilians, and did not fit into any other category. I found the same reaction in places like Miami and Massachusetts. In my book, Brazilians are as Latinos as there can be be, and a great bunch to hag around with!
1
I learned Spanish in school before it was in fashion, and there were two of us in the class for years. I have had the "privilege" of warm conversations on many an occasion, even when the other person spoke better English than I did their parent's or their language. It simply makes me shake my head that there are so many who are ignorant about their neighbors to the point of allowing Trump to hold them up for humiliation. I respect them and hope President Hillary Clinton will be able to quickly repair the damage Trump's words have caused.
8
any input from Hispanics from New Mexico, Texas and other states whose families have been living in the same place for centuries?
11
No different than being called a Hill-Billy because you married a sister, brother, or cousin
And your point is)
Brewster and Stephenson claim to fame was a "documentary" on how badly his son's identity was treated at a moneyed well connected elite Manhattan school -Dalton. And well connected they are, Harvard and all. Of course they made a movie out of it, and of course they got prizes for their insight on "race", and articles on "race" in the NYT.
I don't trust anybody who sees "race" everywhere because "race" is the main part of his/her annual income.
I don't trust anybody who sees "race" everywhere because "race" is the main part of his/her annual income.
18
Hopefully the Times will try to dispel the misconception that Latinos are recent arrivals. Our political culture portrays them as a group who have only been in the United States for 50 years.
18
Some Hispanic American families have been in the present-day United States since the early 1600s, but the majority of descended from immigrants who arrived in the past 50 years. Hispanics made up only about three percent of the U.S. population in 1970. Native-born Hispanic Americans surpassed the number of foreign-born Hispanic Americans for the first time a few months ago.
1
Uh yeah they've been inside the US since around 1500.
1
where is Eva Longoria when we need her :-) ?
1
I was fluent only in Spanish until the age of 13 or 14. But eventually became proficient in English well enough to score in the high 700s (out of 800) in graduate board tests. My skin is very light and hold a well-paying job.
Although I have an Hispanic name, I don't "register" as a "Latino". In fact, friends, especially liberal ones, have said that I am not a real "Latino". And it was at that point, that I came to realize that the neologism "Latino" is essentially a euphemism for the very ugly word "wetback".
Although I have an Hispanic name, I don't "register" as a "Latino". In fact, friends, especially liberal ones, have said that I am not a real "Latino". And it was at that point, that I came to realize that the neologism "Latino" is essentially a euphemism for the very ugly word "wetback".
15
If you think it's difficult to define Latino, try defining white. What are we, all the rest? The people of pallor with European ancestry? How are Irish, Italian, French, German, English, Scottish, Welsh, Russian, Polish, Swedish, Greek, Austrian, Dutch, and even Jew, all lumped into one category? Because of the lightness, to varying degrees, of their skin, hair and eyes? Race is a fantasy. Ethnicity is a reality. All the European people of pallor who came here ultimately melted into one new ethnic identity, American, so even ethnicity is not hard-wired.
I don't believe it accomplishes much to make a fuss over race and ethnicity. By and large, people come to the US to escape their ethnic and racial identities and the social hierarchies they fostered. Why not let them?
I don't believe it accomplishes much to make a fuss over race and ethnicity. By and large, people come to the US to escape their ethnic and racial identities and the social hierarchies they fostered. Why not let them?
39
It's really strange that a modern country like USA has still not understand that "race" is a moral construction.
To me "white" and "black" people don't exist.
There are different cultures, different origins but only one race : human race.
To me "white" and "black" people don't exist.
There are different cultures, different origins but only one race : human race.
12
So very true.
2
The current trend in the media to call people of African, Latin American, and Asian ancestry "non-white" or "people of color" as opposed to "white" for everyone else sets up a false and divisive way of categorizing.
2
There is no Hispanic/Latino "race". Having a Spanish language and cultural heritage has nothing to do with either race, color or national origin or any combination of those factors. Any more than having an English language and cultural heritage ethnic Anglo heritage has to do with race, color or national heritage. About 2/3rds of American Hispanic/Latinos are Mexican mestizo, mulatto, Garifuna, Native and African.
Why white people who have a Spanish language and cultural heritage deserve to be treated as a "minority" is not logical nor necessary. What about the Greeks, Italians, Portuguese, French, Dutch or Eastern Europeans? Cruz, Rubio, Castro and Francis all have the advantaged privilege of being white.
Hispanic/Latino is a unique American classification. The second most populous nation in the Americas-Brazil- has a Portuguese language and cultural heritage and is excluded from the definition of Hispanic/Latino. Based upon American racial classification only Nigeria has more people of black Sub-Saharan descent than Brazil.
Why white people who have a Spanish language and cultural heritage deserve to be treated as a "minority" is not logical nor necessary. What about the Greeks, Italians, Portuguese, French, Dutch or Eastern Europeans? Cruz, Rubio, Castro and Francis all have the advantaged privilege of being white.
Hispanic/Latino is a unique American classification. The second most populous nation in the Americas-Brazil- has a Portuguese language and cultural heritage and is excluded from the definition of Hispanic/Latino. Based upon American racial classification only Nigeria has more people of black Sub-Saharan descent than Brazil.
5
And in Equatorial Guinea, an African country, Spanish is spoken, too. Are they Hispanic?
As one who fits into that box, I agree that it is not a race; I think everyone understands that (as it's reiterated many fold on every Times comment board). Of course, at the same time, if we agree that race is a social construct, then it is a race. And while it is a unique American classification, it came out of many decades of advocacy by the Puerto Rican community for a long list of reasons, and over time has become an umbrella term as immigrants from other Spanish-speaking countries increased. It's root is in a political advocacy movement.
Last thing, however, is this: a minority does not necessarily imply skin color nor does it imply that one is persecuted or disadvantaged in this country. On the contrary, if we want to call ourselves a multicultural country, then most certainly Greeks, Italians, Eastern Europeans, and anyone else (non-English people) you want to list are minorities and they are so in many, many ways: language, religion, culture, traditions, history, etc. Now, that doesn't mean that they should access programs that were designed to benefit African American, but it still doesn't negate their culture (intermarriage is what probably has that effect over the longer term). While Marco Rubio, to take your example, may have white skin privilege, doesn't diminish his minority status as someone who's family came from some place other than England, and I'm sure he's probably faced discrimination in his life or at the very least taunts for his ethnicity.
Last thing, however, is this: a minority does not necessarily imply skin color nor does it imply that one is persecuted or disadvantaged in this country. On the contrary, if we want to call ourselves a multicultural country, then most certainly Greeks, Italians, Eastern Europeans, and anyone else (non-English people) you want to list are minorities and they are so in many, many ways: language, religion, culture, traditions, history, etc. Now, that doesn't mean that they should access programs that were designed to benefit African American, but it still doesn't negate their culture (intermarriage is what probably has that effect over the longer term). While Marco Rubio, to take your example, may have white skin privilege, doesn't diminish his minority status as someone who's family came from some place other than England, and I'm sure he's probably faced discrimination in his life or at the very least taunts for his ethnicity.
I couldn't agree more with this framing!
Races in Latin America are very mixed. In one hand we have the natives: Mayans, Aztecs, etc. In the other hand we have the original colonizers: Iberic Spaniards, Arabic Spaniards (Moors), Portuguese. Add black people from Africa, Chinese people, immigrants from Italy, Germany, etc. Stir for several centuries and you have Latin America today. Of course the composition varies widely from country to country.
19
..Iberic Spaniards, Arabic Spaniards (Moors) ...
I assume that by Iberian Spaniards you mean Christians. All these guys, together with Jewish Spaniards, were just Spaniards that happened to practice a certain religion (or the religion or their feudal lord imposed on them). All the three groups had been present in the Iberian Peninsula for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Wars, conquest, trade and intermarriage had eliminated any racial differences between them.
I assume that by Iberian Spaniards you mean Christians. All these guys, together with Jewish Spaniards, were just Spaniards that happened to practice a certain religion (or the religion or their feudal lord imposed on them). All the three groups had been present in the Iberian Peninsula for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Wars, conquest, trade and intermarriage had eliminated any racial differences between them.
2
The growing presence of "Latinos" in the US is forcing people to realize what science (biology, genetics) has established since the the Human genome was decoded in 2000. "Race" is a biologically senseless concept. But it persists as a social concept. In the US and in much of Europe, because of the biblical story of Noah, people believed and still do that there are three races: whites, blacks, and yellows. This classification excluded many people including many so called "Latinos," who were thought to be mixed bloods. This idea still persists.even if it is now clear to science that humans are all mixed bloods. The so called racial types are rather recent adaptations to environmental factors. Races are defined by culture and culture is filled with prejudice. Yet, it is clear that "whites' in the US own and control the important assets and institutions of society. And they determine the importance and the value of all people reserving for themselves the privileges that go to those who make the laws, own the resources, and control institutions. In this sense racism is alive and well in "America." So long as the quasi religious, biblical, ideas based on three-thousand year old mythologies persist, races and their relative importance, will remain as part of culture. The Federal Census race classification should be ended because it continues to make people think about themselves as members of a race. Unfortunately, among "Latinos" there is also a very intense racism.
9
Recent advances in DNA analysis has destroyed the assertion that race is a social construct. We now know which genes or combination of genes produce racial phenotypes and understand how these genetic variation occurred as human populations groups evolved in geographic isolation. It is true that some anthropologists and biologists reject “race” as a valid biological classification because there is more genetic variation within racial groups than between racial groups, but they refer instead to “ancestral groups,” which amount to about the same thing. The controversy lies in what importance—if any—should be given to these differences. While there are medical implications, so far no genes or combination of genes have been positively identified that determine intelligence or behavior in groups or individuals. It has nothing to do with Noah or religion.
Hispanics, or Latinos, are an ethnic group, not a racial group like African Americans, Asian Americans or Native Americans. According to the Pew Research Center’s Hispanic Trends, "54% of all Hispanics in the U.S. self-identify as white, 1.5% self-identify as black, 40% do not identify with any race, and 3.8% identify as being two or more races." This is why whites are steadily becoming a larger percent of the U.S. population. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the United States is 77.4 percent white, up 75.1 percent from 2000, mostly due to immigration from Latin America. Intermarriage between non-Hispanic whites and Hispanic whites is so common that many people think there will no longer be a distinction between the two groups by 2060.
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/demo...
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2015/demo...
7
Hmmm, not quite. These so-called "racial" groups come from many different countries and continents with different languages and different cultures, which is why classifying by "race" does not make a lot of sense. These people may identify with any particular "racial" group to any particular "ethnic" group anywhere from Korea to Japan to India to China to Viet Nam to the West Indian Islands to Spanish-speaking countries to the Philippines to Alaska to any country on the African continent. BTW Native Americans' genetic makeup traces back to "Asians" who crossed the Bering Strait thousands of years ago.
1
The term "race" in context simply refers to differences in physical appearance among population groups that evolved in geographic isolation for one another. It has nothing to do with countries, continents, languages or culture. The people we mistakenly call Native Americans are not normally classified as Hispanic or Latinos. They are normally racially categorized racially as Asian, but many feel they evolved so long in continental isolation they became a separate race. Historians refer to them as Amerindians.
As everyone says over and over, Latino is not a race. It is a linguistic political identity. In the Latin American countries we come from, race is as big, if not bigger problem than it is in the USA and plays out in more complex ways. As I look at this documentary, I realize how much of race is in the eye of the beholder: the guy who says he's brown and can't be white, looks perfectly white to me (considering that white is a category that includes dark skinned people from Europe, the Middle East, etc.). The alarm bell that goes off in American minds, however, when they hear a Spanish surname or the Spanish language is another thing that baffles me. Hey, folks, it's a European name, it's a European colonial language, no different than English. What the young woman laments about not speaking the language anymore to her mother, or the fellow that lost a lot in order to fit in -- those are all universal immigrant experiences shared across many lines, and a lot of Americans should be able to empathize with them, regardless of background. Personally, I think the category of Latino will dissolve over time, as immigration subsides, intermarriage becomes the norm, and the cultural buy in is lost.
28
Neither 'Latino', 'Hispanic', nor 'Iberoamerican' are in any way racial terms. The term ''race" at least when I received my Masters degree in Physical Anthropology refers to distinctive general physical characteristics of human beings and not to linguistic or cultural characteristics.
8
"race"? There is only one race and that is Homo Sapien. There are ethnicities, just like different breeds of dogs and other domestic animals. You can always try "sub-species" but I doubt that you could get away with it.
5
You are right. In that sense, there are Caucasian Latinos (or Hispanics), Black Latinos, and even Asian Latinos. And the same applies to other ethnicities.
2
When I went to basic school and secondary schools we were taught about races and there are 5 (five) races and we were given the main characteristics of each one: white or caucasian; black or negro; yellow; red or cooper like and mixture or mongolian (mostly black, white and red). We were told that ambient (exposure to the sun mostly could change the color of the skin but no the race itself. There are characteristics such as the texture of the hair, the Horace angle, the shape of the nose, the color of the eyes, the shape of eyes and the shape of lips. Also there is not such a thing as latino (the word is not found in the RAE dictionary at least in the 1961 edition as is the concept of latino that is used as defining something inferior not knowing that actually it is because spanish is a languaje derived from latin as is italian, french. In the video that I heard did not see one of the speakers making a reference to what they learned in the schools they attended in reference to races. I think it is better to call the spanish speaking people in the USA Hispanics or Iberoamericans that better reflect the real concept.
4
Recently, the Anthropology Association published a statement on their position regarding race http://www.americananthro.org/ConnectWithAAA/Content.aspx?ItemNumber=2583) which illustrates the prevailing notion that race is scientifically invalid and more a social construct. The other issue here in the US is that the majority of Latin Americans are of Mexican/Mesoamerican origin and thus any reference to them as Iberoamericans is considered a vestige of colonialism, and a denial of Native American heritage and culture.
“Latino” in its Americas context is short for the Spanish word “latinoamericano.” It applies to all residents of Latin America or their descendants living in the United States. Latin America consists of countries where one of the Romance Languages derived from Latin are spoken because they were once colonies of Spain, Portugal or France Most, but not all, Latin Americans are Hispanic because most are Latin American were once Spanish colonies. The Brazilians and Haitians are notable exceptions because they are residents of countries that were colonies of Portugal and France. They are Latinos because they are residents of Latin America, but they are not Hispanics because they speak Portuguese and French. Latinos and Hispanics can be of any race or any combination of races. Most Hispanic Americas self-identify as white. According to the Pew Research Center, about 25 percent of white Hispanics marry non-Hispanic whites. The distinction between Hispanic Americans and non-Hispanic Americans will probably disappear by mid-century, just as the distinction between other American ethnic groups have disappeared.
18
Good comment.
I would like to add that "la Latinidad" is also a state of mind, a unifying culture that binds Latin Americans regardless of race or place of origin. One of my favorite CDs is a Placido Domingo album entitled "My Alma Latina" where he celebrates the variety of Latin American music and the culture of its diverse population.
I would like to add that "la Latinidad" is also a state of mind, a unifying culture that binds Latin Americans regardless of race or place of origin. One of my favorite CDs is a Placido Domingo album entitled "My Alma Latina" where he celebrates the variety of Latin American music and the culture of its diverse population.
Irish Americans, German Americans, Italian Americans, Polish Americans, etc. one felt the same affection for the “Old Country” as Latino Americans now feel toward Latin America. But this fades with each generation. One the grandparents are dead, ethnic identity dissolves. The number of native-born Hispanic American recently surpassed the number of foreign-born Hispanic Americans for the first time. Intermarriage between Hispanic Americans and Anglo Americans is so common that no distinction between the two ethnic groups will exist within two or three generations.
This welcomed commentary shows why reality long ago eclipsed the black/white binary that has dominated racial discourse in America. America has always been extremely racially diverse, even before we defined ourselves as a nation.
But sadly that process of national definition has created the foundation of the distorted racial categories that we struggle with today. As the very mixed groups that make up the Latino population were absorbed as the result of conquest and westward expansion, two different models of race clashed. The Latin model had a color hierarchy, but one could move within that hierarchy based on marriage. But the American model which carefully and rigidly defined race by law and maintained that color line until 1967. Until the passage of our civil rights laws there was white and black and people were legally placed in one or those categories.
But as you examine how race played out historically one thing became clear. Despite the variations of color, culture and history within the Latino community, America drew a line that simply delineated white from non-white and made sure that those who didn't look like direct descendants from Spain stayed on the non-white side of that line. While race within the Latino community has been ambiguous, their treatment as not white was not.
But sadly that process of national definition has created the foundation of the distorted racial categories that we struggle with today. As the very mixed groups that make up the Latino population were absorbed as the result of conquest and westward expansion, two different models of race clashed. The Latin model had a color hierarchy, but one could move within that hierarchy based on marriage. But the American model which carefully and rigidly defined race by law and maintained that color line until 1967. Until the passage of our civil rights laws there was white and black and people were legally placed in one or those categories.
But as you examine how race played out historically one thing became clear. Despite the variations of color, culture and history within the Latino community, America drew a line that simply delineated white from non-white and made sure that those who didn't look like direct descendants from Spain stayed on the non-white side of that line. While race within the Latino community has been ambiguous, their treatment as not white was not.
7
Hispanic, or Latino< leaders lobbied for recognition as a protected minority group. This gave them bilingual education programs, programs to "protect their culture and affirmative action. They insist on being treated differently and would resent being treated the same as other U.S. ethnic groups. If we treated them the same as other U.S. ethnic groups, they would stop identifying as Hispanic or Latino.
Latino? Hispanic? spanish speaker? la raza? boriqueno? chicana?
Make up your minds people.
If ya gotta be RACIST....at least agree on which RACIST label you're going to slap on spanish speaking catholics compelled to vote democrat in order to recieve bureaucratic patronage.
Make up your minds people.
If ya gotta be RACIST....at least agree on which RACIST label you're going to slap on spanish speaking catholics compelled to vote democrat in order to recieve bureaucratic patronage.
7
This is America where you can call yourself whatever you want.
8
"Latino? Hispanic? spanish speaker? la raza? boriqueno? chicana?"
In what sense is any of the above a "RACIST label" and how is using one of these labels show that "ya gotta be RACIST"?
In what sense is any of the above a "RACIST label" and how is using one of these labels show that "ya gotta be RACIST"?
12
@short endsorosville:
And you really need a dictionary because you keep using that word "racist" and you don't know what it means, i.e. "the belief that some races of people are better than others." If we were to use your bastardized meaning of the word, then simple animal taxonomy would be verboten. And all it is indicative of your contempt for people other than your norms.
And you really need a dictionary because you keep using that word "racist" and you don't know what it means, i.e. "the belief that some races of people are better than others." If we were to use your bastardized meaning of the word, then simple animal taxonomy would be verboten. And all it is indicative of your contempt for people other than your norms.
" For some, Latino identity is a political stance involving both race and nationality, while others found the label deeply constraining. Most pointed to the frustrations of being stereotyped, marginalized and demeaned."
------------You know, if 55% of some 11 million illegal aliens weren't Mexican, and most of them Hispanic, maybe you wouldn't be "stereotyped, marginalized and demeaned". But when Latinos comprise the bulk of the millions breaking our immigration laws, working illegally off the books or under stolen Social Security numbers, and having the most children living in poverty, well, it doesn't give your ETHNIC group (NOT "race") a particularly good reputation. Especially when the far more numerous Hispanic CITIZENS seem to support a "right" for their Hispanic brethren to come here illegally and be rewarded with amnesty.
------------You know, if 55% of some 11 million illegal aliens weren't Mexican, and most of them Hispanic, maybe you wouldn't be "stereotyped, marginalized and demeaned". But when Latinos comprise the bulk of the millions breaking our immigration laws, working illegally off the books or under stolen Social Security numbers, and having the most children living in poverty, well, it doesn't give your ETHNIC group (NOT "race") a particularly good reputation. Especially when the far more numerous Hispanic CITIZENS seem to support a "right" for their Hispanic brethren to come here illegally and be rewarded with amnesty.
19
Not sure how anyone can work here illegally when the law requires that employers check for legal status via identification card (be it a driver's license or state ID), work visas, and social security cards.
Methinks big business and its penchant for saving a buck by hiring illegals, shipping jobs overseas, getting around our tax laws (hello Apple), banking overseas, and applying for work visas for people to come to this country to do American jobs (hello Donald Trump), are the ones to blame. Illegals can't work here unless hired to work whether to work as a nanny for some rich people or working in a factory to pick fruit or to clean toilets.
When housing prices and fruit prices skyrocket, everyone can go cry to Donald Trump and see if he cares one whit about you losers.
Methinks big business and its penchant for saving a buck by hiring illegals, shipping jobs overseas, getting around our tax laws (hello Apple), banking overseas, and applying for work visas for people to come to this country to do American jobs (hello Donald Trump), are the ones to blame. Illegals can't work here unless hired to work whether to work as a nanny for some rich people or working in a factory to pick fruit or to clean toilets.
When housing prices and fruit prices skyrocket, everyone can go cry to Donald Trump and see if he cares one whit about you losers.
8
Your statement does not apply to Puerto Ricans since they are American citizens that were drafted to fight for this country and now volunteer for the military. And Cubans are not illegal immigrants. Therefore, yours is a generalization.
2
Too many Latinos put ethnic solidarity above any other consideration when it comes to immigration policy. I am tired of being accused of racism because I see no need to import yet more of their unskilled, uneducated, non-English speaking compadres here.
My Puerto Rican grandmother, who was blond, used to get frustrated whenever people here did not believe she was Puerto Rican, born in Puerto Rico. My mother was blond, too. And I was blond as a child. My friends are shocked when I show them photographs and are puzzled because it shatters their believe that "Hispanic" is not a race.
16
it shatters their believe that "Hispanic" is not a race.
So, "Hispanic" *is* a race.
So, "Hispanic" *is* a race.
2
I made a mistake: it shatters their belief that Hispanic is a race.
1
As an Irish American with black hair I can identify having been told I can't be Irish because my hair isn't red.
Thank you New York Times! It's about time! Finally this conversation is coming out in the open! Yeah, I'm tired of being told: you look white but you are not white because you are Puerto Rican. Even in Michigan I was asked if Puerto Rico had an airport. I said no, I had to swim from island to island to get a boat to finally get here. I was even told by a landlord in GA that they were going to deport me back to Puerto Rico if I complained about their infractions against ordinance. I get tired of having to explain Puerto Rico is American territory. I get tired of having to explain I'm not Mexican and I don't know how to cook tacos. I get tired of having to bite my tongue when people treat me like my standard of living was not higher in Puerto Rico than their upbringing here in the mainland... blah, blah, blah. I'm exhausted. And the worst is having to put up with other Hispanics who resent we are American citizens and I'm displaced from jobs because like these Hispanics desperate to immigrate into the US say to me: you are Puerto Rican, you are an American citizen, you can always get another job, and if not, you can always get government assistance. I get more discriminated against by other Hispanics than by Anglos! And even black Americans don't believe me when I say African culture is part of Puerto Rican culture! I just want to move to a penthouse apartment in NYC and order my food in!
29
Well, I'm from Costa Rica and for some reason many americans think Costa Rica and Puerto Rico are the same country. Go figure!
6
"I just want to move to a penthouse apartment in NYC and order my food in!"
So do I!
So do I!
4
I'm black apparently look Hispanic and Puerto Ricans have always tried to claim me as their own. So in NYC I was Puerto Rican. In California I was not (apparently I don't look Mexican), back to NYC and my Puerto Rican boss thought I was Puerto Rican.
Finally, I'm trying to learn Spanish. Maybe I'll "pass".
Anyway, love Puerto Rican food, which I could not get in California.
Your experiences just shows how ignorant Americans are about peoples, culture, geography, language. Americans revel in their monolingualism. Learn another language, learn about a peoples and their culture! I say if you are going to be a bigot at least know who you are being bigoted against.
Finally, I'm trying to learn Spanish. Maybe I'll "pass".
Anyway, love Puerto Rican food, which I could not get in California.
Your experiences just shows how ignorant Americans are about peoples, culture, geography, language. Americans revel in their monolingualism. Learn another language, learn about a peoples and their culture! I say if you are going to be a bigot at least know who you are being bigoted against.
12
I am a 68 years old male, citizen of Mexico living temporarily in the US. I grew up race-blind because five centuries before I was born, Mexico had been the scenario of a miracle: an encounter of two advanced civilizations and the subsequent fusion of two cultures through inter-marriage. At school (back in the fifties) I had learned about the “five or six races” in the world, but I associated them to human geography rather than to a personal trait of people. I remember thinking whether the orientals had been arbitrarily assigned the “yellow” color, and the indigenous people of North America, the “red” color. The first time I visited this country as a 5th grader, I received an immigration form at the port of entry with a question that confronted me, personally, to the notion of race. My teachers had never explicitly related race to skin color, neither they ever had mentioned what the color assigned to mesoamerican people was, so I wrote race: “mexican” in the immigration form. My genes speak of western european and african descent, along with mixtecan blood, and a hint of caribbean islander. If you asked me today what my race really is, I still would have a hard time answering or, if you really insisted, I would respond ironically as I used to in high school: “human being”, instead of “white hispanic” as I have sometimes been arbitrarily catalogued.