When i first returned home as a 20 year old in aug 04, i was told by the va not to seek help because it will affect my life drastically and for many years i lied to self about being normal. eventually i was discharged other than honorable. i finally got help in 09 and have still been in the struggle to maintain balance. its definitely a cut and dry criteria, theres no room for being resilient with ptsd... if you are too resilient then they dont see it as you suffering... guess thats my biggest issue. I can only imagine that rangers and sf are highly resilient for what they do. its possible to suffer greatly and still have a strong mentality that keeps you going and thats where the grey area comes in. thats where im at and there is not give for this area. so as i carry on with my daily as i was trained...SUCK IT UP AND DRIVE ON... yet suffer internally and fight to keep it there because i dont want to loose my job or family or my mind or my rights... feel like ive lost half already. GOD IS GOOD none the less!
3
Essentially what this leads to is PTSD being the insanity defense, absolving one for knowing right from wrong. Think about it, John McCann lying in a prison cell, certainly suffering from PTSD, would be absolved from any action he committed. I don't think so. Somehow, personal responsibility for ones actions is never needed. .
Since 2002, when George W. Bush mentioned Iraq as a member of the "Axis of Evil" during his State of the Union address, as a nation we have been at war.
It has come in on-again, off-again waves of victory and defeat, dead and dying, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, WMD's, no WMD's, IED's, Humvees, prisoners, "we got 'I'm", "Bring it on," Mission Accomplished, Abu-Ghraib, kidnappings, Syria, embassy bombings, Al-qeda, Taliban, and now ISIS and beheadings, torture, ancient ruins ruined, oil fields ablaze, Republican debates and their mention of carpet bombings, glowing deserts, our weak nation, shrinking military, immigrants, immigration, build a fence, ...............and to speak frankly, with no end in sight.
So, after almost 15 years of this continuing mayhem,
how can our nation not be suffering from a degree of PTSD?
It has come in on-again, off-again waves of victory and defeat, dead and dying, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, WMD's, no WMD's, IED's, Humvees, prisoners, "we got 'I'm", "Bring it on," Mission Accomplished, Abu-Ghraib, kidnappings, Syria, embassy bombings, Al-qeda, Taliban, and now ISIS and beheadings, torture, ancient ruins ruined, oil fields ablaze, Republican debates and their mention of carpet bombings, glowing deserts, our weak nation, shrinking military, immigrants, immigration, build a fence, ...............and to speak frankly, with no end in sight.
So, after almost 15 years of this continuing mayhem,
how can our nation not be suffering from a degree of PTSD?
2
The mere act of surviving stress in time of war should be commendable regardless of how achieved. PTSD is viewed as a survival tool in some situations. In the Israeli military a "debriefing" is held after each potentially traumatic event to allow abreaction of repressed emotion. The US needs to learn more about PTSD before deciding what is honorable and what is not. PTSD will be a grey area until it can be measured or shown on an MRI. IMHO a DD214 should only state bare fact ie. length of service, unit address, specialty, etc. Opinion doesn't do justice to many veterans, and from my personal military experience may tip some into suicide.
2
These soldiers all deserve an " honorable discharge period". PTSD is a mental/ physical disability covered under the ADA( Americans With Disabilities Act)! Less than 2% of the American public ever served in the military. An OTH( Other Than Honorable Discharge) is an administrative discharge( known as an Undesirable Discharge) which over 99% of businesses will hire as well as police departments! Thank You to all of our soldiers past and present. America salutes u all and regardless of your discharge at least u served the country and did the best u can!
1
Again, I'm embarrassed by my government's behavior.
Once upon a time our U.S. military shot "deserters", didn't they ?
Perhaps this reaction by soldiers means we (our military/CIA/NSA), shouldn't be in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Pakistan & all the other locales where we have a "presence" (albeit not always shared with the American public).
Once upon a time our U.S. military shot "deserters", didn't they ?
Perhaps this reaction by soldiers means we (our military/CIA/NSA), shouldn't be in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Pakistan & all the other locales where we have a "presence" (albeit not always shared with the American public).
2
Recognition of the legitimacy, severity, long term effects, and potential for ruined lives, or early deaths is what we must insist upon from our government. We should hold their feet to the fire to fulfill their obligations to service people, no matter how long that takes. We should also go back to the draft, where everybody serves, rich and poor alike, where war's results are far more honestly considered, and where all promises are kept, to the last letter.
4
I wish every person considering a military job would read this. My advice... Don't take the job. It will destroy your life and we don't need you to make that sort of sacrifice for the super-rich. If you want to serve your fellow citizens, stay home and take care of your family here.
10
Neildsmith--Wish I could recommend this comment a hundred times!
4
In Britain during World War II, anyone who flew in the RAF and contracted what we now call PTSD could be discharged with a disgraceful tag on his record. Lack of Moral Fibre or LMF kept otherwise brave men from ground operations and decent jobs after the war. The more empathetic and intelligent commanders left off the LMF smear and tried to get help for their mentally sick men.
There is no excuse for the American Army to be emulating the RAF's cold disgrace. Early and proper diagnosis is the key, not sloppiness or a wave off, which in themselves are examples of LMF.
There is no excuse for the American Army to be emulating the RAF's cold disgrace. Early and proper diagnosis is the key, not sloppiness or a wave off, which in themselves are examples of LMF.
5
A PTSD diagnosis now receives an automatic 50% disability rating from the Army, and anyone willing to lie can get a PTSD diagnosis. Under the new rules, a PTSD claimant no longer needs to show he or she has deployed to a combat zone, much less that he are she has experienced combat. Any solider who “self-medicates” on drugs and alcohol, claims he has nightmares, or refuses to deploy can claim PTSD and get a 50-percent medical discharge, which means 50 percent of pay for life and free medical care for life. A soldier who gets an honorable discharge after completing his or his service commitment gets a few medals, but now PTSD claimants are demanding they also be awarded Purple Hearts.
1
As and OEF and OIF vet myself, I don't doubt that there are a small percentage of cases of long-term debilitating PTSD. But I am quite certain that this percentage is vanishingly small. What bothers me most, however, is that our hometown firefighters, EMS crews, and police see horrible carnage over the course of years, day in and day out. As bad or worse than war zones. Surely they suffer from bouts of PTSD, but we don't demand PTSD compensation for them. It would break the county coffers! Why is this? The military offers specific disability options that make it attractive for some to game the system, and a public that has the myth of the crazed, broken Vietnam vet embedded in popular culture and so considers PTSD as an acceptable sympathy getter and easy out for tough personal situations. Unfortunately, this seriously undermines the few who really and truly do have the condition and need the help.
3
The Pentagon military leaders invent new enemies to justify their existence and garner Congressional support to build their Empire. They fill the President with fantasies of power as "Commander in Chief". They sacrifice our young virile people because all their early lives they were taught to be obedient and take orders from their parents, now their commanding officers. They take advantage of youthful invincibility and a lack of understanding of death. They risk hundreds of millions of Americans lives by their posturing in an arms race with other superpowers. They think they can win a nuclear war while they hunker down inside the protection of a mountain while we are all vaporized by the millions. The soldiers do the actual fighting and experience the horrors and are brain damaged by their experience and understandably so.
So, tell me again who is mentally ill.
So, tell me again who is mentally ill.
is there a link to the congressional office where people can voice their support for these soldiers and this bill? what is the house resolution number? is it before a committee yet? if there is any such info, please post it.
2
While I feel a lot of compassion for those vets dealing with PTSD and other injuries, and agree the military should step up its support for those that need and deserve it, this story and so many others like it can perhaps serve as a cautionary tale. To a large degree the US has become an economic imperialist nation with highly questionable judgement in when, where and why we deploy our force. The military eats up trillions of dollars annually and I think it's fair to question if this is in the long term interest of the country and the world. If even a small percentage of the resources used for the military were diverted to education, training, infrastructure, development of renewable energies, just to name a few better uses, young people joining the armed services as a way to gain educational and life experience would have so many more options other than putting themselves and others in deadly peril, ruining and destroying lives and perpetuating violence aggression and suffering.
4
'I though I could join the military and make the world a better place.' Sometimes yes, sometimes no. All those who are unaware of the possibility of 'no,' before they join up, are in great hazard.
PTSD has become the umbrella term for far too many veterans. It is suppose to excuse a host of problems and behaviors. It's much like "thanks for your service," which gets old real quick. I have stopped responding to that one when someone finds that I am a Vietnam Veteran. As for the PTSD defense, each instance should be judged on its merits by people who work from the same script.
1
---They can also face a lifelong stigma.
You mean prejudice, you mean discrimination.
Disguising those as "stigma" removes the onus from those practicing that prejudice and discrimination. The Women's Movement lent no credence to rape/stigma and told us unequivocally to stop doing so.
Please apply the lesson.
You mean prejudice, you mean discrimination.
Disguising those as "stigma" removes the onus from those practicing that prejudice and discrimination. The Women's Movement lent no credence to rape/stigma and told us unequivocally to stop doing so.
Please apply the lesson.
1
As well they should. WWII PTSD victims suffered in silence for decades, as have Vietnam vets. This affliction will last a lifetime, if not treated properly. I had it, but I got great treatment for 3 years and eventually got better. I still suffer from chronic anxiety syndrome, though. But, now you can take a pill for that, when you need it. Not something to be taken lightly. It can ruin your life.
2
I worked at a VA hospital for 25 years as a neurologist. We saw a lot of PTSD among veterans of the Vietnam war. I had retired by the time the veterans from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars started showing up at the VAH.
Patients with PTSD often have medical problems as well as problems due to drug use and family problems due to a combination of all of these. It is often difficult to sort out what is caused by PTSD and what pre-existed before the person joined the military. Patients have a tendency to relate every thing to the military service, not surprising since that is the seminal event in their life.
Rather than putting the onus on the veteran to prove that the problems are related to the military service, it would be more sensible and more humane to assume that it is so and give the vets service connected disability and medical/psychiatric treatment. That does not mean that all vets get a ton of money that allows them to live in luxury for the rest of their lives. But it gives them a start in trying to put their life back together.
We don't have the draft any more. Absence of the draft means that mostly men and families from working class background experience the trauma of war.
Vets would get a lot more besides lip service if they came from all strata of society. There would be fewer wars if the men/women in the Congress and the Senate had their children and grandchildren on the front lines.
Patients with PTSD often have medical problems as well as problems due to drug use and family problems due to a combination of all of these. It is often difficult to sort out what is caused by PTSD and what pre-existed before the person joined the military. Patients have a tendency to relate every thing to the military service, not surprising since that is the seminal event in their life.
Rather than putting the onus on the veteran to prove that the problems are related to the military service, it would be more sensible and more humane to assume that it is so and give the vets service connected disability and medical/psychiatric treatment. That does not mean that all vets get a ton of money that allows them to live in luxury for the rest of their lives. But it gives them a start in trying to put their life back together.
We don't have the draft any more. Absence of the draft means that mostly men and families from working class background experience the trauma of war.
Vets would get a lot more besides lip service if they came from all strata of society. There would be fewer wars if the men/women in the Congress and the Senate had their children and grandchildren on the front lines.
10
A vast majority of service members suffering from PTSD follow the rules and serve their country honorably the way they promised to serve at signing their military contracts. They don't leave their posts, they see their mission through.
Those who don't may have vulnerabilities that existed before their military service.
The process of psychological screening of recruits is quite poor - nonexistent. Note that the rate of PTSD among spec forces is extremely low while their combat involvement is extremely high.
Those who don't may have vulnerabilities that existed before their military service.
The process of psychological screening of recruits is quite poor - nonexistent. Note that the rate of PTSD among spec forces is extremely low while their combat involvement is extremely high.
4
Reality check.
The rates of suicide in 2014 were almost the same among active duty military and their civilian counterparts of the same socio-economic status.
Among veterans these rates were about 1.5x higher...
Among American physicians the rates were about 1.5x higher than among veterans.
The rates of suicide in 2014 were almost the same among active duty military and their civilian counterparts of the same socio-economic status.
Among veterans these rates were about 1.5x higher...
Among American physicians the rates were about 1.5x higher than among veterans.
2
I guess I misunderstand. Do you mean that sufferers of PTSD are not dying in high enough numbers?
1
mental illness is the new crime--and not just for veterans either. PTSD effects millions of victims of child and domestic abuse. These people have no VAand did not sign up for their trauma. They are left with the most horrendous terrors and usually not even a family member to help. Many end up in prison. Our government does not even provide disability for children of horrendous sexual abuse and incest. It's sad these soldiers are suffering but wouldn't it be excellent if these former soldiers stood up and helped the other victims of PTSD in our society? It could be a win-win situation.
8
I have seen many game the Veterans preferance system and repeatedly go back to the VA for increases in their preferance. I was a GS-15 hiring manager and the schemes I saw by vets would make you want to puke. I am sure that as more and more of the jobs that were traditionally set aside in government for Veterans returning to the workplace have been contracted out. Especially since George W. Bush 8 year payback to campaign contributors. Obama has been about hiring Black females ( many unqualified and angry the EEO director of my former agency strangled a Black male EEO investigator.
While I know several highly qualified black professionals they are the most outraged as to what has occurred during the Obama administration and who has been promoted.
Any federal jobs that formerly had Veterans preference requirements ( that basically excluded everyone else, Custodial, landscaping, food service, hospital orderly, facility maintenance workers, basically all of the WG series, should be required when contracted out that the contractor require the same Vet preferance.
It used to be that there were enough blue collar jobs that even with a less than honorable or general discharge that you could still get selected for a positon. When I found out that any of the supervisors below me ever selected someone with a DD-214 that had less than honorable let alone a General dIscharge I questioned their judgement in hiring. In fact, we stopped letting them select certificates anymore.
While I know several highly qualified black professionals they are the most outraged as to what has occurred during the Obama administration and who has been promoted.
Any federal jobs that formerly had Veterans preference requirements ( that basically excluded everyone else, Custodial, landscaping, food service, hospital orderly, facility maintenance workers, basically all of the WG series, should be required when contracted out that the contractor require the same Vet preferance.
It used to be that there were enough blue collar jobs that even with a less than honorable or general discharge that you could still get selected for a positon. When I found out that any of the supervisors below me ever selected someone with a DD-214 that had less than honorable let alone a General dIscharge I questioned their judgement in hiring. In fact, we stopped letting them select certificates anymore.
2
Sounds like another federal management type who never served in uniform or in combat complaining about a hiring preference for those vets that did serve.
I am sure you were smart enough to get around those restrictions and hire exactly who you wanted.
I am sure you were smart enough to get around those restrictions and hire exactly who you wanted.
3
I did not know that the number of vets from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan put out with less than honorable discharges was as high as it is. I don''t think anyone could believe that this many men volunteered for these two wars were cowards and that is essentially what a less than honorable discharge it. We hear the horror stories of the My Lais and Abughrabs but when it's about the horrors of what the grunts faced, we have been content to sweep it under the
rug.
I fully support Congressman Coffman's effort and hope those reading this story will contact their members of Congress to support this effort.
We as a nation did promise to take care of those who stepped forward and even though I like Bernie Sanders and President Obama opposed the war in Iraq, I fully support the promise to take care of those wounded.
rug.
I fully support Congressman Coffman's effort and hope those reading this story will contact their members of Congress to support this effort.
We as a nation did promise to take care of those who stepped forward and even though I like Bernie Sanders and President Obama opposed the war in Iraq, I fully support the promise to take care of those wounded.
12
We are still clinging to the "oh, just get over it" stigma, which is totally immoral.
2
If having a mental illness is a criminal offense, then law-abiding citizens won't become mentally ill, and those who do become mentally ill—who cares about them? They're just criminals.
It has a certain Catch-22 character, familiar in military thinking and rules.
It has a certain Catch-22 character, familiar in military thinking and rules.
8
Wishing all our vets the very best of luck.
8
If you look at the military medical records, you'll find that claims of PTSD by service members outnumber diagnoses given to them by their doctors.
Having symptoms of PTSD is not the same as having the diagnosis.
It is ridiculously easy to fake PTSD. Step 1 - look up the symptoms on the internet, Step 2 - assemble adverse verifiable experiences that may be construed as traumatic, Step 3 - match up the symptoms with the experiences, Step 4 - look up the screening questionnaires on the internet and make sure you endorse the symptoms above the clinical cutoff but not too highly, Step 5 (optional) - claim benefits after your PTSD is confirmed.
For the best results hire a lawyer. The military is always at a disadvantage: their lawyers are always overworked, underpaid, and are no match to the slick civilian ones.
There is no objective test to unambiguously establish or rule out PTSD.
Having symptoms of PTSD is not the same as having the diagnosis.
It is ridiculously easy to fake PTSD. Step 1 - look up the symptoms on the internet, Step 2 - assemble adverse verifiable experiences that may be construed as traumatic, Step 3 - match up the symptoms with the experiences, Step 4 - look up the screening questionnaires on the internet and make sure you endorse the symptoms above the clinical cutoff but not too highly, Step 5 (optional) - claim benefits after your PTSD is confirmed.
For the best results hire a lawyer. The military is always at a disadvantage: their lawyers are always overworked, underpaid, and are no match to the slick civilian ones.
There is no objective test to unambiguously establish or rule out PTSD.
7
al, you appear to be extremely knowledgeable about ptsd. I was wondering though, how were you able to look at the military medical records of service members claiming to have ptsd? Is there a data base of veterans' records that is accessible by anyone with a digital device?
I'm also curious as to why you would recommend hiring a lawyer to pursue a ptsd claim with the VA if it is so easy to fake ptsd. Why give part of your disability to a shyster lawyer? What could a lawyer possibly do to increase the payoff from a system that is so easily gamed by unscrupulous veterans?
I do agree with you that the military is always at a disadvantage in its dealings with veterans. For sure, all these sleazy veterans faking ptsd have no trouble conning the trillion dollar a year military-industrial cancer. Although it does seem that the 300,000 veterans forced out of the military since 2001 might disagree with us about the disadvantages faced by the military.
I'm also curious as to why you would recommend hiring a lawyer to pursue a ptsd claim with the VA if it is so easy to fake ptsd. Why give part of your disability to a shyster lawyer? What could a lawyer possibly do to increase the payoff from a system that is so easily gamed by unscrupulous veterans?
I do agree with you that the military is always at a disadvantage in its dealings with veterans. For sure, all these sleazy veterans faking ptsd have no trouble conning the trillion dollar a year military-industrial cancer. Although it does seem that the 300,000 veterans forced out of the military since 2001 might disagree with us about the disadvantages faced by the military.
1
"Observers say the boards are overwhelmed...a growing caseload from Iraq and Afghanistan, 135 employees to process 22,500 cases." The Congressional members who shrunk the budget as well as the military officers who have allowed this to happen need to be publicly out, fined, and stripped of their compensation and retirement. Let them feel this personally, then let the money flow again--starting with coming out of their pockets.
7
"The Marine Corps locked him in a psychiatric hospital, he said, and then gave him an other-than-honorable discharge without evaluating him for PTSD."
While the marine was in the Army psychiatric hospital or mental ward, an Army psychiatrist should've examined him and provided a written diagnosis explaining the patient's problem, if any. The diagnosis should've been entered into the patient's military medical record, which would've provided medical evidence for his subsequent VA disability claim that his problem is a consequence of military duty. However, although psychiatry is supposedly a helping profession, it is a well-known fact that Army psychiatrists and psychologists are empowered to use psychiatry as a retaliatory weapon against military personnel who are deemed by their superiors to be insubordinate. There may be an unacknowledged "quota" system intended to limit the number of military medical discharges that could result in disability payments, thus military doctors may be under pressure to minimize the number of PTSD and other potentially compensable diagnoses. NYT has published several articles by Dr. Sally Statel, who has worked as a VA psychiatrist, which reveal a propensity to label veterans who claim PTSD symptoms as slackers.
While the marine was in the Army psychiatric hospital or mental ward, an Army psychiatrist should've examined him and provided a written diagnosis explaining the patient's problem, if any. The diagnosis should've been entered into the patient's military medical record, which would've provided medical evidence for his subsequent VA disability claim that his problem is a consequence of military duty. However, although psychiatry is supposedly a helping profession, it is a well-known fact that Army psychiatrists and psychologists are empowered to use psychiatry as a retaliatory weapon against military personnel who are deemed by their superiors to be insubordinate. There may be an unacknowledged "quota" system intended to limit the number of military medical discharges that could result in disability payments, thus military doctors may be under pressure to minimize the number of PTSD and other potentially compensable diagnoses. NYT has published several articles by Dr. Sally Statel, who has worked as a VA psychiatrist, which reveal a propensity to label veterans who claim PTSD symptoms as slackers.
7
On one end of the spectrum there is John Mcain who experienced many years as a tortured POW who goes on to become a US senator. On the other is a sailor who receives 100% disability for PTSD, reason: he could not sleep nights from fear of being stationed 90 miles from Cuba at Key West Naval station. I'm not making this up as I have personal knowledge of this. Each case is different and must be evaluated.
8
It's even worse: just in going about daily life, some people fall into mental illness. (In early adulthood, some suffer a psychotic break, for example.) Some people become mentally ill, some do not. It's like cancer in that way, except we don't usually blame those who suffer from cancer. You give an example of someone who did not get mentally ill (except perhaps for suffering the delusion that Sarah Palin was qualified to be President), and of someone who suffered from mental illness. I get that, but I don't understand the point you're trying to make, unless it is that some get mental illness and others do not, a fact that I think is common knowledge.
3
pepperman33, do you know from personal knowledge that Mr. McCain does or does not have a service-connected disability rating for ptsd, or any other condition related to his military service? If not, then why would you put him at one extreme on your "spectrum"?
This is really a terrible article. OK, it is a crime in the military to "miss movement" if you are not dead and not in a hospital in a coma you have to make that flight. It is also a crime in the military to use cannabinoids and everybody knows it. All four services REQUIRE that persons caught using cannabinoids via urinalysis be processed for discharge. The process allows most military personnel to appear before a board, beg for forgiveness, and try to stay in. The military gives the guy a lawyer for free to do this. PTSD is not a defense to a crime.
15
Liz I'm sure you would be more compassionate regarding the use of substances if you did some similar duty to Mr. Burke in Afghanistan. As it is you live in the beautiful state of Alaska. Ask yourself why the people of your state have such a high rate of Alcoholism and drug use. Or why Wassila Alaska is the meth capital of the state. Could it be the six months of near total darkness? Or are these folks all slackers. Cause when you're 19 years old in Helmand province picking up the body parts of little kids, you, too, might be tempted to use hash to go to sleep.
1
What not? And who are you to say?
You are uninformed. Lots of use of hash and marijuana is just ignored-no tests ordered, alcohol abuse is also tolerated. You must be from the Point.
I cannot begin to describe the anguish this article causes me. Of course these military review boards are overwhelmed! War is a mind-grinder! Idealistic young people, fed a "diet" of American guns-ho propaganda, end up in impossibly grim situations where they see horrors, inflict horrors and then have to live with horror.
In the drumbeat to war I knew that sending troops into battle was a RECiPE for PTSD. This was completely foreseeable!
The military has sworn over and over that they are making it easier for troops to seek psychological help. Well, #%¥~!!!! Punishing people who are forced to view and photograph mutilated bodies and have become suicidal??? Making a tender-hearted young man do that without daily psychological help??? No NGO would ever put someone into such a situation without such ongoing assistance.
War is never the answer. But, by God, if young people are exposed to such horrors, they should never then be stigmatized for reacting normally to the abnormal.
Instead, these young people, exploited for adventurous aims, have themselves been branded as abnormal.
It tears at my heart! It tends our social fabric. It has bankrupted us morally and financially.
It was all foreseeable. What a tragedy!
In the drumbeat to war I knew that sending troops into battle was a RECiPE for PTSD. This was completely foreseeable!
The military has sworn over and over that they are making it easier for troops to seek psychological help. Well, #%¥~!!!! Punishing people who are forced to view and photograph mutilated bodies and have become suicidal??? Making a tender-hearted young man do that without daily psychological help??? No NGO would ever put someone into such a situation without such ongoing assistance.
War is never the answer. But, by God, if young people are exposed to such horrors, they should never then be stigmatized for reacting normally to the abnormal.
Instead, these young people, exploited for adventurous aims, have themselves been branded as abnormal.
It tears at my heart! It tends our social fabric. It has bankrupted us morally and financially.
It was all foreseeable. What a tragedy!
26
What eloquent anguish. Thank you, TheraP.
To upgrade a discharge one must prove either that the discharge is either improper (a mistake was made) or inequitable (it is unfair). This is what the vast majority of applicants fail to understand. A medical diagnosis alone is not sufficient to upgrade a discharge nor should it be. Not without medical records and a compelling argument from the soldier as to why the mental health problem, as well as everything else that does, mitigates the severity of the misconduct.
The Army Review Board Agency takes more than five minutes. It is absurd to suggest they do not. There are five active duty full-bird colonels that sit on the panel and they are the ones that actually decide, and if one wishes an oral hearing with the offices is an option as well as a written appeal. However, it is next to impossible to upgrade an other-than-honorable discharge in cases of misconduct that involved substance abuse. The Army is punitive, the boards no less so. Even though the BCMR is civilians, nothing suggests they are any more sympathetic. To have any chance of an upgrade, one must assemble character references, letters of support, obtain letters from commanding officers if any, awards, medical records, degrees, citations, but most important, write a persuasive legal brief that makes a compelling argument that the discharge is either improper or inequitable. Having an award-winning appellate attorney in the family helps.
The Army Review Board Agency takes more than five minutes. It is absurd to suggest they do not. There are five active duty full-bird colonels that sit on the panel and they are the ones that actually decide, and if one wishes an oral hearing with the offices is an option as well as a written appeal. However, it is next to impossible to upgrade an other-than-honorable discharge in cases of misconduct that involved substance abuse. The Army is punitive, the boards no less so. Even though the BCMR is civilians, nothing suggests they are any more sympathetic. To have any chance of an upgrade, one must assemble character references, letters of support, obtain letters from commanding officers if any, awards, medical records, degrees, citations, but most important, write a persuasive legal brief that makes a compelling argument that the discharge is either improper or inequitable. Having an award-winning appellate attorney in the family helps.
6
Actually, you are wrong. According to a recent Fusion investigation, "Board members meet twice a week and begin deliberations at 8am and finish around 1pm, deciding about 80 cases, according to internal documents obtained by Fusion. On average that’s three minutes and 45 seconds per case, even though some of these applications, like Luther’s, are hundreds of pages long."
A mental health diagnosis that the military ignored, or failed to diagnose, should be enough alone. It constitutes misconduct on the part of the Army. That alone makes the discharge improper.
http://interactive.fusion.net/a-losing-battle/
A mental health diagnosis that the military ignored, or failed to diagnose, should be enough alone. It constitutes misconduct on the part of the Army. That alone makes the discharge improper.
http://interactive.fusion.net/a-losing-battle/
1
Years ago it was "Anxiety" -- and that caused the addiction of many to Valium. Today's disease of the decade is PTSD - and all purpose excuse for bad behavior and lack of employment.
If you pay people to act poorly, you get people to act poorly.
If you pay people to act poorly, you get people to act poorly.
6
What do you know?
1
Personally, I think that anyone that can kill people and be around the recently killed and mutilated and not be at least somewhat traumatized by the whole thing are the ones with mental illness.
31
Or were sociopaths going in. However, most military vets claiming PTSD never saw one day of combat, same for those who commit suicide.
Given just the last 100 years of human history, the number of mentally defective sociopaths and psychopaths seems to have been vastly undercounted. What professions those mostly young males are attracted to or resort to for whatever employment they can find is an avenue for further research.
Given just the last 100 years of human history, the number of mentally defective sociopaths and psychopaths seems to have been vastly undercounted. What professions those mostly young males are attracted to or resort to for whatever employment they can find is an avenue for further research.
12
Would be interesting to know how you know that "most most military vets claiming PTSD never saw one day of combat, same for those who commit suicide."
One doesn't have to be in active military combat to experience mental problems. Seeing dead or mutilated bodies on a constant basis in a war zone can have the same mental effect.
One doesn't have to be in active military combat to experience mental problems. Seeing dead or mutilated bodies on a constant basis in a war zone can have the same mental effect.
11
Mary, you seem to be implying that the military attracts a large percentage of sociopaths and psychopaths. Why? As you said, most military vets never encounter combat. Is the vet who became a cook a sociopath who wanted to prepare uneatable food? Is the vet who became a mailman a psychopath who wanted to throw the mail pouch in the latrine hole? Is the vet who became a medic a sociopath who wanted to sabotage the CMA autoclave?
Just can't buy your snide innuendo, Mary.
Just can't buy your snide innuendo, Mary.
2
Where is there anyone from the George W. Bush Administration stepping forward to reach out and help, assist these men and women, who volunteered and were sent to the Middle East to fight in a war they would be unfamiliar with, a guerrilla war, and arrive so under armored.
Donald Rumsfeld said, "you go to war with what you have......." when he was asked during our engagements in the Middle East, how he could send our men and women so under armored to face a meat grinder, riding around in something so pedestrian as Humvees, the same vehicle you see driving around on our city streets.
Just take the time to go to youtube and watch Bush's War Parts 1 and 2 and you'll see that invading Iraq was the table since '9/11.' They had the time to think our defenses through but didn't because throwing bodies at the enemy is what they planned on doing all along.
Where are these men and women from the Bush Administration who so cavalierly sent so many of our under armored men and women to return in body bags or as para- or quadriplegics, or comatose for the remainder of their lives because they left half their brains over there from IED explosions.
And I'd love to know how many of the Bush Administration have ever made an attempt to visit our Veterans Hospitals to say thanks. Where have all these chest thumpers disappeared to? Where? They're at home with their full pensions, full hospital benefits living a decent life while our veterans try and cobble a life of their own together.
Donald Rumsfeld said, "you go to war with what you have......." when he was asked during our engagements in the Middle East, how he could send our men and women so under armored to face a meat grinder, riding around in something so pedestrian as Humvees, the same vehicle you see driving around on our city streets.
Just take the time to go to youtube and watch Bush's War Parts 1 and 2 and you'll see that invading Iraq was the table since '9/11.' They had the time to think our defenses through but didn't because throwing bodies at the enemy is what they planned on doing all along.
Where are these men and women from the Bush Administration who so cavalierly sent so many of our under armored men and women to return in body bags or as para- or quadriplegics, or comatose for the remainder of their lives because they left half their brains over there from IED explosions.
And I'd love to know how many of the Bush Administration have ever made an attempt to visit our Veterans Hospitals to say thanks. Where have all these chest thumpers disappeared to? Where? They're at home with their full pensions, full hospital benefits living a decent life while our veterans try and cobble a life of their own together.
25
For the record:
Back in 2014 when there was a bill before Congress that would give more money to support the needs of veterans, Mitch McConnel, who along with all Republicans,"love the vets", rejected it so it did not pass!
I guess McConnell didn't want to bring attention to the disastrous decision to invade Iraq and Afghanistan by the Republicans, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Wolfowitz, etc., etc.!
Back in 2014 when there was a bill before Congress that would give more money to support the needs of veterans, Mitch McConnel, who along with all Republicans,"love the vets", rejected it so it did not pass!
I guess McConnell didn't want to bring attention to the disastrous decision to invade Iraq and Afghanistan by the Republicans, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Wolfowitz, etc., etc.!
33
This is hardly a new problem.
During the Vietnam war, in country drug use was so prevalent the Army had to establish detox centers to dry soldiers out ("Cold Turkey") so they could pass a drug screen to be put on a plane to return them to the "World" where they were presumably discharged (Honorably) and probably went out and found more drugs.
Maybe the solution is to issue a clean (Honorable) DD214 at the end of ANY combat tour (Honorable Discharge with immediate reenlistment) so people like Msrs Goldsmith and Burke will be eligible for Veterans Benefits.
The vast majority of NYT Readers have NO CLUE about the social milieu of the Military or the Population(s) from which it recruits, as shown by the scarcity of comments and a couple of clueless ones already cleared. There really are different worlds out there beyond that of the Young Urban Hipster.
During the Vietnam war, in country drug use was so prevalent the Army had to establish detox centers to dry soldiers out ("Cold Turkey") so they could pass a drug screen to be put on a plane to return them to the "World" where they were presumably discharged (Honorably) and probably went out and found more drugs.
Maybe the solution is to issue a clean (Honorable) DD214 at the end of ANY combat tour (Honorable Discharge with immediate reenlistment) so people like Msrs Goldsmith and Burke will be eligible for Veterans Benefits.
The vast majority of NYT Readers have NO CLUE about the social milieu of the Military or the Population(s) from which it recruits, as shown by the scarcity of comments and a couple of clueless ones already cleared. There really are different worlds out there beyond that of the Young Urban Hipster.
28
I don't know that a clean 214 is the answer, but giving people the option to go inactive after a combat tour instead of forcing them to remain active duty with repeated tours might help.
1
There were no detox centers when I boarded the Freedom Bird at Cam Ranh Bay in March of '69. Maybe you served in a different Viet Nam.
1
Not to be sarcastic, but what does one expect form the military? They are all about "Kill, the Enemy", "Conquer Territory", not -"Let's Plant Some Flowers", or "Peace, Love and Understanding". The military and more specifically, the top generals and bureaucrats don't give a rat's a-- about the common foot soldier. Congress only talks about providing the best for veterans, but when the money is tight, even veterans get the shaft while the money pours into the weapons manufacturing and R&D. P.S.- Veterans don't have the big money to hire lobbyists, the armaments manufacturers do and to remind the public Congress only cares about who has the money to throw at them. Do yourselves a favor you young men and women,- don't join the armed forces, you'll regret it later when they call you up to do the dirty fighting. Listen to "CCR"'s, "Fortunate Son" lyrics from the 1960's, it's still applies today.
19
I was about to comment that we could do ourselves another favor by getting money out of politics altogether, but now I wonder if human nature, as expressed at this point in our evolution, is even capable of such a thing. Some vets went in for the long-term financial benefits, just like some politicians do, just like arms manufacturers do, and lobbyists, and on and on. I did it myself. I would agree with Mr andrews (above) to the extent that all too often we largely don't give a rat's behind about those 'below' us. Sad.
My father served in military. He was accidentally kicked in the head and his eardrum was ruptured. He didn't get the proper medical treatment. Some 30 years later, because he was kicked in the head while under water and the dirt from that water remained trapped, he developed a brain abscess. The Army's answer to him was that they'd lost his records in a fire. The abscess was the direct result of incompetent treatment by an army doctor. My father was unable to work after he recovered from the brain abscess. He served his country and in return he got an honorable discharge and saw the army shirk it's duty. Therefore this story about PTSD does not surprise me at all.
Read "Conduct Unbecoming" if you want to learn about how poorly the armed forces treated their gay and lesbian soldiers, many of whom served with distinction. They gave them dishonorable discharges. Some were discharged because they didn't have husbands or wives or refused advances by the opposite sex. Adultery was fine in the armed forces. Being gay or lesbian was not. And so it goes in America. Conform or else.
Read "Conduct Unbecoming" if you want to learn about how poorly the armed forces treated their gay and lesbian soldiers, many of whom served with distinction. They gave them dishonorable discharges. Some were discharged because they didn't have husbands or wives or refused advances by the opposite sex. Adultery was fine in the armed forces. Being gay or lesbian was not. And so it goes in America. Conform or else.
24
So a real physician honestly attested that a kick to the head 30 years prior is the definitive cause of the abscess?! Thanks for the chuckle.
1
Our brave soldiers are being used and kicked to the curb after the government squeezes them dry. The official ingratitude and insensitivity is despicable, and should serve as a warning to those who want to join the military.
10
And, yet, those of us who questioned the adventure that created these vets were slandered as traitors and unpatriotic. I worked for the Veterans Administration when we invaded Iraq and found that virtually every vet with who I spoke shared this blind acceptance that we had to go to war and that questioning this was not acceptable, the weakness of the"surrender monkey." Well, I must say that I find it difficult to muster much sympathy for the fools who bought into this propaganda and now suffer PTSD. Perhaps if they listened to people like me, they wouldn't be trying to get help that should not have been necessary. Fools.
11
You are wrong. Our military continues to waste our money and provide employment for those who don't have many other options. PTSD is just a way of survival for ex-soldiers who fight these immoral wars.
2
This is not a govt problem as much as a combat problem.
Combat is very unhealthy. If you are not willing to pay the price don't pick a combat mos.
Doing it for gratitude ? What a sweet thought. Funny and sweet.
Combat is very unhealthy. If you are not willing to pay the price don't pick a combat mos.
Doing it for gratitude ? What a sweet thought. Funny and sweet.
1
Back in 1965, when I and a dozen other guys from my neighborhood reported for pre-induction draft physicals, nearly half were rejected as unfit for service.
And contrary to legends evolving out of that time, the vast majority of the rest of us who served in Vietnam combat returned home to college and/or jobs and went on to raise families and lead productive lives. The same was true of most veterans who served before us in WWII, Korea and other conflicts.
So maybe the real problem today is that the all-volunteer service isn't working and that too many of these cases should never have been accepted for military service in the first place. Perhaps the military needs to reevaluate its recruiting, training and leadership policies to arrive at a viable solution.
And contrary to legends evolving out of that time, the vast majority of the rest of us who served in Vietnam combat returned home to college and/or jobs and went on to raise families and lead productive lives. The same was true of most veterans who served before us in WWII, Korea and other conflicts.
So maybe the real problem today is that the all-volunteer service isn't working and that too many of these cases should never have been accepted for military service in the first place. Perhaps the military needs to reevaluate its recruiting, training and leadership policies to arrive at a viable solution.
21
I served in VN. In an all vol combat unit.
I had a lot of team mates that went on to be police.
I had a few that went on to be gangsters. One died a few years later after VN a drunk dead on the street. A few may have or did commit suicide.
I think you have a grossly simple view of returning WW2, Korea, or VN combat vets and how well they adjusted back into society.
After WW 2 there were camps in the summer where vets spent the entire summer in the Pa woods drinking themselves silly. Drinking and talking all summer ----beer bought with their govt checks.
My dad talked often I seeing his fellow WW 2 vets walking the streets drunk.
Your experiences are not the experiences of all
I had a lot of team mates that went on to be police.
I had a few that went on to be gangsters. One died a few years later after VN a drunk dead on the street. A few may have or did commit suicide.
I think you have a grossly simple view of returning WW2, Korea, or VN combat vets and how well they adjusted back into society.
After WW 2 there were camps in the summer where vets spent the entire summer in the Pa woods drinking themselves silly. Drinking and talking all summer ----beer bought with their govt checks.
My dad talked often I seeing his fellow WW 2 vets walking the streets drunk.
Your experiences are not the experiences of all
15
Misterbianco, war warps the soul. When I hear a combat vet imply that he just went home and resumed life as a civilian with no adverse effects from participating in the carnage of combat, I suspect that he is in major denial. One can attend college, get a job, raise a family and lead a productive life, but those outward accomplishments do not mean that IT does not lurk in the deepest pits of the subconscious mind, directing actions and choices that are responses to the affront of one's humanity that combat inflicts on its victims.
Some are better equipped to deal with the carnage than others. One should not disparage those who suffer more.
Some are better equipped to deal with the carnage than others. One should not disparage those who suffer more.
1
A review board that spends five minutes reviewing each file, and then rejects 96% of claims is not doing its job.
47
I'm a psychiatrist. All diagnoses are made by man, not God, but psychiatric diagnoses present problems that other diagnoses don't. For one, they are much more easily faked. For another, they tell us little or nothing about the chemistry of the person. And, for another, they chip away at the very useful concept of personal responsibility.
This is a very complicated and loaded topic and it is not well served by this article, which makes questionable assumptions and throws around terms it doesn't define well.
There is no perfect system when it comes to dealing with behavioral problems in the military and trade-offs are inevitable. It's best if they're made explicit. The military has a tough job trying to incentivize good behavior and disincentivize bad behavior and try to excuse personnel who seem to be much more vulnerable, weak, or incapacitated mentally. On top of doing its job: destroying or threatening to destroy people and things in order to protect us.
This topic really requires much more balance and qualification than this article delivers.
This is a very complicated and loaded topic and it is not well served by this article, which makes questionable assumptions and throws around terms it doesn't define well.
There is no perfect system when it comes to dealing with behavioral problems in the military and trade-offs are inevitable. It's best if they're made explicit. The military has a tough job trying to incentivize good behavior and disincentivize bad behavior and try to excuse personnel who seem to be much more vulnerable, weak, or incapacitated mentally. On top of doing its job: destroying or threatening to destroy people and things in order to protect us.
This topic really requires much more balance and qualification than this article delivers.
34
"psychiatric diagnoses present problems that other diagnoses don't. ... for another, they chip away at the very useful concept of personal responsibility."
If a person is ill, a person is ill. I understand that diagnoses can be imprecise, and sometimes illnesses faked, but what does "personal responsibility" have to do with anything? "Sorry, your leg IS broken, but we can't acknowledge that, because we need to uphold the idea of personal responsibility?"
If a person is ill, a person is ill. I understand that diagnoses can be imprecise, and sometimes illnesses faked, but what does "personal responsibility" have to do with anything? "Sorry, your leg IS broken, but we can't acknowledge that, because we need to uphold the idea of personal responsibility?"
6
The military does not have a tough time "disincentivizing" bad behavior. It is called field grade article 15's with reduction in rank to E-1 and 45 days reduction in pay and 45 days extra duty. Extra duty means the day begins with physical training around 5:30 or 6:00a.m., continues to end of duty day at 5:00p.m., transitions to extra duty at 5:30p.m. after a 30 minute dinner, and ends anywhere between 9:00 and 11:00p.m., seven days a week, slight easing on Sunday. Nor does the military excuse personnel who appear vulnerable or weak or "incapacitated mentally". They would never recognize such people, let them in to begin with, and in fact conflate mental illness with weakness or personal moral failing. If you had served in the military as I have, and suffered from mental illness as I have, and suffered the punitive system the Army offers as I have, instead of enjoyed the privileged education system this country has to offer, you would understand that. So get off your moral high horse.
1
With all due respect - you sound like a psychiatrist who does not work with trauma.
When you seek volunteers age 18-22 who perceive the military as more promising than other career trajectories, you are selecting for a population with special risks.
Apart from the overwhelming stress of close quarters, harsh discipline & combat - this group carries vulnerabilities for schizophreniform, bipolar and other maladaptive personality traits.
It seems that as soon as being gay was off limits, the macho mindset of the military had demonized 'weakness' manifest through mental symptoms. How meatheaded is that - to turn on the people you enticed to volunteer ?
Apart from the overwhelming stress of close quarters, harsh discipline & combat - this group carries vulnerabilities for schizophreniform, bipolar and other maladaptive personality traits.
It seems that as soon as being gay was off limits, the macho mindset of the military had demonized 'weakness' manifest through mental symptoms. How meatheaded is that - to turn on the people you enticed to volunteer ?
21
It is a self-sorting population of uneducated youth and immigrants who need a job, lured by the financial benefits in much the same way as that demographic was attracted to factory work pre-1980s.
10
Mary, that is a ridiculous statement. Fighting in a war is not the same as working in a factory. And the US has been at perpetual war for decades.
1
Agree. I've often wondered what the military and military conflict in general would look like if soldiers (etc) were only females, above the age of thirty.
My uncle was a Marine who was at Pearl Harbor and then fought on Okinawa for 30 days as part of Carlson's Raiders, considered the first special forces unit in the US military. 150,000 Okinawans were forced to commit suicide by the Japanese defenders and the ferocity of the defense was what made the US government decide to use nuclear weapons to end the war.
Later while stationed in New Zealand, he got drunk, was acting as what they decided was bizarre, and they sent him to psychiatrists who gave him a mental illness diagnosis and a psych discharge. Took him a year to get his final muster out pay of $300.
Later while stationed in New Zealand, he got drunk, was acting as what they decided was bizarre, and they sent him to psychiatrists who gave him a mental illness diagnosis and a psych discharge. Took him a year to get his final muster out pay of $300.
9
The Marine Raiders were disbanded years before the OKI battle. Your uncle was not in the Raiders on OKI.
Now he may have told you he was.
Now he may have told you he was.
1
I got it out of his marine archive service records; it is written right into his psych report. He never said a word about it.
4
They were "officially" disbanded, but merely changed designation and continued to fight as a group with some new additions.
"Four Raider battalions served operationally [including "Carlson's Raiders of 2nd Marine Raiders Battalion"] but all were disbanded on 8 January 1944... On 1 February 1944, the 1st Raider Regiment was redesignated the 4th Marine Regiment... Leavened with new men, the 4th Marines went on to earn additional distinctions in the assaults on Guam and Okinawa. At the close of the war, the regiment joined the occupation forces in Japan and participated in the release from POW compounds of the remaining members of the old 4th Marines." (Wikipedia)
"Four Raider battalions served operationally [including "Carlson's Raiders of 2nd Marine Raiders Battalion"] but all were disbanded on 8 January 1944... On 1 February 1944, the 1st Raider Regiment was redesignated the 4th Marine Regiment... Leavened with new men, the 4th Marines went on to earn additional distinctions in the assaults on Guam and Okinawa. At the close of the war, the regiment joined the occupation forces in Japan and participated in the release from POW compounds of the remaining members of the old 4th Marines." (Wikipedia)
1
They should screen the thoughtful and sensitive ones out from the beginning.
10
I hope you are kidding.
4
Compassion has a place in the armed forces. Those who are thoughtful and sensitive bring an invaluable perspective to our missions abroad. PTSD is not limited to those men and women who are 'sensitive' nor is it anything to be ashamed of.
5
No, JLK is correct!
If the US is going to engage in perpetual war, we should create a breed of automatons who have no emotions to get in the way of their brutality!
Of course after a 6 year stint, they would have to be "put down" lest they create problems for a society that want's nothing to do with war!
If the US is going to engage in perpetual war, we should create a breed of automatons who have no emotions to get in the way of their brutality!
Of course after a 6 year stint, they would have to be "put down" lest they create problems for a society that want's nothing to do with war!
6
Good ole' Dick Cheney...six deferments from serving this country in Vietnam, then he creates a war with Iraq and sends other mothers sons into harms way for a lie... And this is the way the US Army treats those troops that actually served this country?
63
"It ain't me, it ain't me; I'm ain't no Senator's son....." by CCR, "Fortunate Son".
11
Most people in their right mind do not willingly yearn to become cannon fodder. The U.S. has had a voluntary military since 1973.
4
I believe it was only 5
1
Military officers protect themselves first, then the military institution, then possibly the enlisted man. They are quick to blame and punish, often fabricating evidence for a quick resolution of any problem, and backed by the highly outrageous Uniform Code of Military Justice. I don't hold out much hope for any enlisted man up against this rigged system.
21
As an OIF veteran that was honorably discharged after 11 years of service, I find this article offensive. These soldiers made bad decisions. The PTSD didn't make them do drugs or miss movement. One ODs the night before deployment and the other gets busted for hash. Only after the fact, after supposedly suffering for sometime, when faced with repercussions, do they toss out the buzz word - PTSD. War is terrible. Veterans suffer. This should not prevent you from being held responsible for your actions.
22
Also an OIF veteran here. I second this. If the Army taught us anything, it was personal responsibility and sacrifice for something greater than ourselves. The individuals discussed in this article failed to live up to those principles.
2
What is with the macho, 'deal with it' attitude that is so entrenched in our armed forces? PTSD is not an excuse, it is a result of being exposed to traumatic events that manifests in different ways. More resources should be invested into teaching armed forces members about the importance of compassion, something that is lacking in your comment.
17
Yes, this comment finally bears on personal responsibility. People these days apparently are not very tough in the psychological sense. nfrc1 thanks for this insight.
2
After and during every war , combat vets who have seen some of the worst fighting, have experienced significant behavioral issues back in the rear, and have been bounced out of the service with a BCD or similar.
It's a story as old as war itself.
It's a story as old as war itself.
19
A Bad Conduct Discharge is a punitive discharge and can only be imposed at a trial by court-martial. You can't get "bounced out" with a BCD.
3
He said, "....bounced out with a BCD or similar," meaning anything like it and that takes in account a few more.
There is a real difference between having PTSD, and claiming you have PTSD. To date, the VA can't tell the difference.
9
No one can.
3
So maybe it's not the old hippies who spit on our veterans. Maybe it's the military, the government, and particularly the GOP. What'd ya know.
62
Great comment. Also, Jane Fonda can be cleared/ .
"it's the government, stupid."
"it's the government, stupid."
10
I always believed the 'spitting thing' was an urban myth started by the GOP, the Lee Atwater types.