Do not forget, Francis is the head of the Vatican State consequently the leader of a political entity. In that regard he is doing what any state leader should do. On the other side Francis loves to be in the news so his declaration on Trump should not surprise anybody.
As usually happens in our sound bite culture, Francis's words have been turned into an unprovoked ad hominem attack on Trump. While he certainly wasn't praising him, his wording was a bit more subtle. A reporter asked Francis to respond to Trump's accusations that he is a political pope and a pawn of the Mexican government, and whether an American Catholic can vote for him. According to the Osservatore Romano, his answer was:
"I thank God that he has said I am a politician, as Aristotle defined the human being as an 'animal politicus': at least I am a human being! And that I am a pawn … perhaps, I do not know. I will leave that to your judgement, to the people. A person who thinks only of building walls, wherever that may be, and not bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. With regard to what I would advise, to vote or not to vote: I would not like to become involved. I would say only that this man is not Christian. It is necessary to see if he has said these things, and for this reason I would give the benefit of the doubt"."
"I thank God that he has said I am a politician, as Aristotle defined the human being as an 'animal politicus': at least I am a human being! And that I am a pawn … perhaps, I do not know. I will leave that to your judgement, to the people. A person who thinks only of building walls, wherever that may be, and not bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. With regard to what I would advise, to vote or not to vote: I would not like to become involved. I would say only that this man is not Christian. It is necessary to see if he has said these things, and for this reason I would give the benefit of the doubt"."
4
Thank you for the information. I was misled by the NYT headline.
3
Pope Francis is preaching a more inclusive gospel than just Christian, that is certain. He understands, in a profound way, that the messages of all the great sages are basically the same. Buddha, for instance, propounded a peaceful way and denounced wealth accumulation. Jesus did not come to save sins, he came to challenge the domination systems of his day---the Synagogue and Rome, who were both oppressing the people. People who lost their land to rapacious money lenders soon died---no safety net in those days.
Most cultures of the world are sick from their great wealth, or striving for wealth. ALL the great teachers said such is the road to spiritual ruin of the Soul. Our current massive wealth inequality is a symptom of egoistic illness that is not centered in Spirit. The "Kingdom of God" is not out there, it is in each human being only we don't see it very well. Pope Francis and others do. We don't listen.
"How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the Kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the Kingdom of God." Mark 10:23 and 25.
"Riches make most people greedy, and so are like caravans lurching down the road to perdition. Any possession that increases the sin of selfishness or does nothing to confirm one's wish to renounce what one has is nothing but a drawback in disguise. Buddha. Jatakamala 5.5 & 15
So, what shall we do with our life's time? For it is very short.
Most cultures of the world are sick from their great wealth, or striving for wealth. ALL the great teachers said such is the road to spiritual ruin of the Soul. Our current massive wealth inequality is a symptom of egoistic illness that is not centered in Spirit. The "Kingdom of God" is not out there, it is in each human being only we don't see it very well. Pope Francis and others do. We don't listen.
"How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the Kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the Kingdom of God." Mark 10:23 and 25.
"Riches make most people greedy, and so are like caravans lurching down the road to perdition. Any possession that increases the sin of selfishness or does nothing to confirm one's wish to renounce what one has is nothing but a drawback in disguise. Buddha. Jatakamala 5.5 & 15
So, what shall we do with our life's time? For it is very short.
To call both Pope Francis and Donald Trump "leaders" is ludicrous. The Pope is a transformative figure whose words and example have the power to genuinely steer a vastly powerful institution in a new, humanistic direction and to open the hearts and minds of not only Roman Catholics but people worldwide. Trump has never led anything other than the minions who work on his brand.
2
I find find it remarkable that politicians claim to be religious, in fact they go out of their way to show a belief in a god. Yet when the leader of the religion makes justifiable comments about that individual he is told by that person to but out and stop being political. Political individuals need to reconize they can't have it both ways.
Good for the Pope
Good for the Pope
4
Pope Francis is respected all over the world not just as the leader of a faith but as an individual for his humanism. There is no comparison here with his humanism and that of a wanna be President...
2
.
if the Pope is serious about the Population of the World
he ought to get on the Contraceptive bandwagon
his 3rd World flock reproduces like MAD
and it's the Mean Capitalists' fault?
.
if the Pope is serious about the Population of the World
he ought to get on the Contraceptive bandwagon
his 3rd World flock reproduces like MAD
and it's the Mean Capitalists' fault?
.
1
Please tell me this is all a bad joke. In his wildest dreams, Trump, on his own, could have fathomed such a headline. Trump, compared to the Pope and touted as a leader? You've got to be kidding. Enough already.
1
Elisabetta, excellent article! I thought the same when the story of Jonah was read and explained that symbolically and actually Francis was doing the same. One thing though and you would know for your Spanish or Italian, Francis did not say D.T. is not A Christian but this would not be "christian" to do or say these things.
2
One does not compare a Pope with a thief.
2
Re: Mr. Godkin and Ms. Polovedo`s articles in the New York Times. They write Chrisitian with a capital "C."
In my Webster`s Dictionary, Christian also means "a decent,civilized, or presentable person". It is this interpretation that Francis implied on the flight back to Rome. He would have included the article "un" if he meant Christianity as a religion. And that`s where Trump, feeling his religious beliefs attacked, decided to take offense. But that`s Donald Trump.
Now, why don`t Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and all other religions object to the meaning of "Christian" as being all-encompassing as in the Pope`s words?
They`re not Donald Trump.
If anyone has an all humanity-encompassing word for the Pope`s meaning of Christianity, let us all know, but as a non-believer in any religion, I`d accept the Pope`s meaning.
In my Webster`s Dictionary, Christian also means "a decent,civilized, or presentable person". It is this interpretation that Francis implied on the flight back to Rome. He would have included the article "un" if he meant Christianity as a religion. And that`s where Trump, feeling his religious beliefs attacked, decided to take offense. But that`s Donald Trump.
Now, why don`t Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and all other religions object to the meaning of "Christian" as being all-encompassing as in the Pope`s words?
They`re not Donald Trump.
If anyone has an all humanity-encompassing word for the Pope`s meaning of Christianity, let us all know, but as a non-believer in any religion, I`d accept the Pope`s meaning.
1
There is a big difference between the two: Pope Francis believes in God while Donald Trump believes he is a god.
5
Much is made of comments by Pope Francis about Donald Trump and the suggestion that Trump’s attitudes are unchristian. As a Presbyterian, I would shift the conversation to what national leaders of the Presbyterian Church USA might say about those of its members who would build walls, not bridges, since Mr. Trump calls himself a Presbyterian. In an important document titled “The Confession of 1967,” Trump’s own church teaches, “…Congregations, individuals, or groups of Christians who exclude, dominate, or patronize others, however subtly, resist the Spirit of God and bring contempt on the faith which they profess. … The church, in its own life, is called to practice the forgiveness of enemies and to commend to the nations as practical politics the search for cooperation and peace. This search requires that the nations pursue fresh and responsible relations across every line of conflict, even at risk to national security, to reduce areas of strife and to broaden international understanding.” Note that emphasis on “even at risk to national security.” I was as heartened by Pope Francis's comments as I am disappointed that national leaders of my own church are silent.
1
Loved the Jonah analogy. The difference, of course, is that the people of Ninevah listened to Jonah. I fear people are hearing Trump more than the Pope. And I am more fearful that we will suffer a fate similar to the people of Ninevah.
1
If we are talking about being a Christian as Trump likes to call himself, ask yourself this. Have you ever heard 2ndCor called "two Corinthians" as Trump did?
If you have seen the inside of a church, this would be ridiculous. There is no way.....
If you have seen the inside of a church, this would be ridiculous. There is no way.....
Donald's arrogance is boundless.
One must wonder who and what really dwells behind the mask of his manic self-aggrandizement, bulling, raw insult, and rampant pomposity?
Many Americans are obviously very desperate indeed.
Were he not elementally dangerous given the potential that he could become the leader of the MOST POWERFUL NATION ON EARTH, all this could seem crudely comedic -- a self proclaimed populist Republican candidate multi-billionaire enamored with a gilded life style who surrounds himself with opulence accented with pink marble and gold plated fixtures.
This is the stuff of a farcical script with fascinating macabre notes that Hollywood would drool over.
One must wonder who and what really dwells behind the mask of his manic self-aggrandizement, bulling, raw insult, and rampant pomposity?
Many Americans are obviously very desperate indeed.
Were he not elementally dangerous given the potential that he could become the leader of the MOST POWERFUL NATION ON EARTH, all this could seem crudely comedic -- a self proclaimed populist Republican candidate multi-billionaire enamored with a gilded life style who surrounds himself with opulence accented with pink marble and gold plated fixtures.
This is the stuff of a farcical script with fascinating macabre notes that Hollywood would drool over.
1
So we've got this highly intelligent, intellectual, progressive man in the Pope, who is a true leader of people and a true humanitarian...and then we've got this utterly offensive snake oil salesman who is basically a 6 year old who thinks he's Batman. This has got to be the most disturbingly bizarre clash of public figures of all time.
Trump has now offended and alienated the Latino vote, the African American vote, AND the Catholic vote. Is it possible that there are enough angry white people to elect this guy?
Trump has now offended and alienated the Latino vote, the African American vote, AND the Catholic vote. Is it possible that there are enough angry white people to elect this guy?
2
Is Donald Trump the anti-Christ? The similarities are astounding, not the least of which is his ability to lead good people into debasing themselves to the false gods of global capitalism.
1
Do either of these two men really have any influence on your daily life?
Or are we debating apples and oranges but eating a pear.
Or are we debating apples and oranges but eating a pear.
1
If you had the chance to share a house for a week in a secluded location with either Pope Frances or Donald Trump, which person would you choose as a companion for this event?
1
Anyone who watches CNN as much as I realizes that Wolf Blitzer SUGGESTED the Pope was talking about Trump. Even this morning CNN was pumping out the same false message. Talk about liars in this campaign. Blitzer attempts to make news rather than reporting it. In this case the wolf was eminently successful. Will CNN win the round in it´s concerted effort to pour Morton's on Trump´s tail?
Ann is right in saying whether you are a Catholic (Christian) or not the pope speaks for the ethical people of the world. Like Ann I don't know whether there is a God but Francis got God in his philosophy.
1
Excellent piece by Jim Yardley, but note that Pope Francis and Donald Trump do not stand on the same ground as "fishing for followers in seas churning with anger, dislocation, spiritual alienation and economic inequality." Francis serves not himself, nor even the Roman Catholic Church, but the Gospel. He IS a "voice of moral clarity," as Paul from Long Island put it, for many people of faith and he earned standing to speak to the world of Gospel mandates. Donald Trump is a politician and one who seems to serve himself primarily. He claims to be Christian, but shows no evidence of it. I suspect the Presbyterian Church of which he claims to be a member would be officially horrified by his theology of exclusion. Even the senior minister of the church he claimed to attend (Marble Collegiate, which is not Presbyterian) said they had no record of him. As an Anglo-, but not Roman-Catholic, I'd listen to the Pope on this.
1
Liberation Theology and border integrity are incompatible. Plain and simple.
If a Church leader in a small town had heard, like everyone else in town, the blustering profanity and bullying of the areas rich man. And if the rich man’s words had included libels about the leader’s flock. And if the leader said nothing. . . . An observer might wonder if the Church leader was worth much.
A Church which will not stand up to such as Trump might just as well lock its doors.
A Church which will not stand up to such as Trump might just as well lock its doors.
1
It would be hard to find two people who are less alike.
1
I believe the pope stepped out of bounds with his comments about building the wall and free transit between countries.
Yes , he represents 1.2 billion followers. Most of whom live in extreme poverty much like his followers HOME country of Argentina.
He would like "OUR" borders open and without restrictions, why? Is it to allow his people from Argentina easy access to the US.
Trump was right to call this man out for his comments. Being pope gives him no dispensation from criticism on his comments.
Yes , he represents 1.2 billion followers. Most of whom live in extreme poverty much like his followers HOME country of Argentina.
He would like "OUR" borders open and without restrictions, why? Is it to allow his people from Argentina easy access to the US.
Trump was right to call this man out for his comments. Being pope gives him no dispensation from criticism on his comments.
2
Christians true to the teachings of Christ would not be advocating the destruction of safety net programs that help the elderly, sick, disabled, unemployed and others disadvantaged through no fault of their own simply because they don’t want to pay for it.
8
I have not heard any American pastor calling out an individual for not acting Christian, altho' they say those old country podium-pounders would name names back in the day.
The independent observer could easily find as many examples of conflict with the Bible in Francis' past as The Donald's. But what the Pope who grew up as a socialist does not GET is that nations get to have borders and enforce them.
The Pope LOVES his 20-foot wall surrounding HIS territory. What is Latin for ''hypocrite?''
The Pope seems to love Mexico, and the most Trump or the Right could accomplish is almost catch up with how Mexico treats the walk-ins from THEIR southern border.
I'll bet you money that within a year of a Trump border wall/fence/moat-with-gators, the voices of Mexico will start asking for the same thing protecting them from their Latin neighbors.
Mexicans clearly understand the need for securing borders.
The independent observer could easily find as many examples of conflict with the Bible in Francis' past as The Donald's. But what the Pope who grew up as a socialist does not GET is that nations get to have borders and enforce them.
The Pope LOVES his 20-foot wall surrounding HIS territory. What is Latin for ''hypocrite?''
The Pope seems to love Mexico, and the most Trump or the Right could accomplish is almost catch up with how Mexico treats the walk-ins from THEIR southern border.
I'll bet you money that within a year of a Trump border wall/fence/moat-with-gators, the voices of Mexico will start asking for the same thing protecting them from their Latin neighbors.
Mexicans clearly understand the need for securing borders.
One illuminating way to examine this dispute is to see it not as personal but as a basic divergence that broke open, appropriately enough, in Jesus' own life and time.
The Hebrews saw their religion as a tribal talisman, a kind of potentially all-nullifying cosmic force that WOULD blast into action at some point of its own mysterious choosing, and make them rulers of all they surveyed. They saw the world as a zero-sum-game. In order for us (God's chosen) to come into our destined (deserved?) exceptional place, all others must lose. As they saw it what was theirs by birthright had been/was being wrongly dispersed.
This outrage must and would be made right, and with a vengeance.
Jesus shows up and flips that belief on its head again and egregiously again. He healed the servant of a Roman Centurion, and intolerably declared the Roman's faith superior to that of any tribal member. He had compassion on a foreign woman and healed her daughter??
In other words, he made no proper distinction between tribe and not-tribe. His new vision was not tribal at all, but universalist. How can Pope Francis, being a follower NOT point out that Trump's MY-TRIBE-FIRST-AND-PRETTY-MUCH-ONLY simply is incoherent with the teachings of Jesus.
When Jesus disciples were hungry on the Sabbath they picked and ate grains. This was viewed as a legalistic outrage. He famously responded, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."
Pope Francis asks the same about Capitalism.
The Hebrews saw their religion as a tribal talisman, a kind of potentially all-nullifying cosmic force that WOULD blast into action at some point of its own mysterious choosing, and make them rulers of all they surveyed. They saw the world as a zero-sum-game. In order for us (God's chosen) to come into our destined (deserved?) exceptional place, all others must lose. As they saw it what was theirs by birthright had been/was being wrongly dispersed.
This outrage must and would be made right, and with a vengeance.
Jesus shows up and flips that belief on its head again and egregiously again. He healed the servant of a Roman Centurion, and intolerably declared the Roman's faith superior to that of any tribal member. He had compassion on a foreign woman and healed her daughter??
In other words, he made no proper distinction between tribe and not-tribe. His new vision was not tribal at all, but universalist. How can Pope Francis, being a follower NOT point out that Trump's MY-TRIBE-FIRST-AND-PRETTY-MUCH-ONLY simply is incoherent with the teachings of Jesus.
When Jesus disciples were hungry on the Sabbath they picked and ate grains. This was viewed as a legalistic outrage. He famously responded, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."
Pope Francis asks the same about Capitalism.
Yesterday I watched as a CNBC reporter referred to Donald as a "fascist" during a round table discussion. Even Jeb has labelled some of Trump's messages as fascist. This reporter calls him a "populist," with just a different message from the Pope! Well, if Mussolini were running today I guess the Times would call him a populist with a divergent message from that of the Pope! Madness!
Just think about it for a minute. Donald Trump a "populist?"
Definition of populist: Merriam Webster Dictionary
1. A member of a political party claiming to represent the common people; especially often capitalized : a member of a United States political party formed in 1891 primarily to represent agrarian interests and to advocate the free coinage of silver and government control of monopolies
2. A believer in the rights, wisdom, or virtues of the common people
Now think about the kinds of things Donald Trump has said about immigrants and people who are gay, people who would be considered common (vs.royalty).
The New York Times should stop referring to him as a "populist."
Definition of populist: Merriam Webster Dictionary
1. A member of a political party claiming to represent the common people; especially often capitalized : a member of a United States political party formed in 1891 primarily to represent agrarian interests and to advocate the free coinage of silver and government control of monopolies
2. A believer in the rights, wisdom, or virtues of the common people
Now think about the kinds of things Donald Trump has said about immigrants and people who are gay, people who would be considered common (vs.royalty).
The New York Times should stop referring to him as a "populist."
1
"Trump becomes the metaphor of an egotistical and racist Christianity". Why? Because he demands the same national sovereignty every other country on Earth has? Because we want to protect our borders? Is it too much to ask that you RESPECT us, by following the LEGAL course? On the one hand, you condemn Donald Trump as preying on Americans' fears - as if those fears were irrational. THEN, you report on the Good Pope traveling throughout Mexico, speaking on . . . "the horrific violence of the drug cartels". Oh, so MAYBE Donald Trump has legitimate reasons for not letting just anybody into the United States uninvited. Those who oppose the wall have an agenda - and its name is Globalism.
So the Pope is saying that in order to be a Christian our country's leader has to leave our borders open for anyone including drug dealers, miscreants, or criminals to enter. This is very idealistic and not practical in todays's world.
He needs to stay out of the business of governing. What will he say if Bernie Sanders is the next President when he's really not a Christian?
He needs to stay out of the business of governing. What will he say if Bernie Sanders is the next President when he's really not a Christian?
2
First of all it is important to know the question asked and the Pope's answer:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flig...
There are several aspects of this exchange that everyone might want to consider. A few simple internet searches, such as "Presidential Candidates border security", "the decline of the Catholic Church", "largest land owner's in the world", "Vatican City" or "wealthiest organizations in the world" and a little time is all it takes.
Then, consider the breadth of the answer. If Donald Trump is "not Christian if he has said things like that", how many United States citizens, including "Catholics" are "not Christian" according to the Pope?
And last but not least, in the context of "Christian" or "not Christian":
Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Regardless of which Presidential Candidate you support or don't support, spend a little time and effort and make up your own mind.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flig...
There are several aspects of this exchange that everyone might want to consider. A few simple internet searches, such as "Presidential Candidates border security", "the decline of the Catholic Church", "largest land owner's in the world", "Vatican City" or "wealthiest organizations in the world" and a little time is all it takes.
Then, consider the breadth of the answer. If Donald Trump is "not Christian if he has said things like that", how many United States citizens, including "Catholics" are "not Christian" according to the Pope?
And last but not least, in the context of "Christian" or "not Christian":
Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Regardless of which Presidential Candidate you support or don't support, spend a little time and effort and make up your own mind.
Interestingly, when the Pope makes a statement against abortion and contraception conservatives feels vindicated, but isn't that an interference in the internal affairs of this or any other country?
1
Excuse me, but isn't this the same Donald Trump who, along with his fellow GOP contenders, is constantly declaring himself to be a man of faith? Haven't they presented themselves as devout, Christian men with superior moral principles? Surely, the Pope is just doing his job when he points out immorality and injustice wherever he sees it. And what does it say about our country when our own religious leaders have failed to speak out? When pandering to their right wing base, Republicans have no problem injecting religion into their politics. And we must never forget that it's this same evangelical base that under the guise of "religious liberty", strives to subject every American citizen to their fundamentalist interpretations of what constitutes a moral life. They drown out the reasonable voices with their bleating and hollering about the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment, while completely ignoring the 1st Amendment and the basic principle our country was founded on, the separation of church and state. Too bad, Mr. Trump and your fellow GOP panderers. In presenting yourselves as godly, Christian men, ad nauseam, you've opened yourselves up to admonishment from a truly godly man, the leader of one of the largest Christian churches in the world.
As a Democrat who'd never vote for Trump, I like a lot of the things he says. For instance, his comments on the Bush administration and the Iraq war. He's saying truthful things that few if any other Republicans have ever had the courage to say (such as, maybe it was wrong to invade a country over weapons that weren't there and in so doing blow up the Middle East). I hope he doesn't get elected President, but it's great to hear stuff like this coming from a Republican.
Trump and other candidates who take the hard line on immigrants often find themselves irritating a couple of significant organizations in the US. Pushing to close the border to any and all immigration, while deporting those already here illegally, upsets the US Chamber of Commerce which is pressured by growers, meat packers, the hospitality industry, etc. to ease up on E-Verify and other tactics to prevent low-wage, no-benefit workers from entering the US. Then the US Conference of Catholic Bishops takes offense to breaking up families of immigrants, some members legal, others not. That is where Pope Francis comes in. For the business community leaving things as is remains the preferred option, for the Pope you have a moral issue on your hands.
The leaders of the world, spiritual and otherwise, have a duty to speak out against hate speech. In this case, the Pope is right.
1
This is an example of Trump's lack of respect for "anyone." We should take notice that Trump sets a dangerous precedent on how he would attempt to negotiate with world leaders, should he be our next President.
To compare Pope Francis and Trump as leaders in the same sentence suggests there is a legitimate comparison to be made which is ridiculous. The Times coverage of this has been sensationalist, provocative, and disappointing - trying to create a story where none exists. Trump is not a leader of men, he does not inspire or ennoble; he is a performer and an exhibitionist.
1
Caring for the poorest, the weakest, the most disadvantaged among us seems a sure ticket to extinction, if indeed evolution is "survival of the fittest", or as I like to put it "survival of those barely making it"
Trump preys on the baser instincts of the electorate. He simplifies all problems with simple ill-conceived solutions. He divides the people in our country, encouraging hate between one group and another - even though we are all Americans of the UNITED States. Trump and his fellow Republican candidates ignore scientific and other proven data and "tell it like it is" by basing their proposed actions and policies on falsehoods and half-truths. The thought of Trump having his finger on "The Button" is devastatingly frightening.
Pope Francis encourages brotherhood and inclusiveness. He asks that we be kind and help one another. He shows us that we are all God's (or evolution’s) children regardless of race, color, or creed. As Mr. Yardley states in this article Pope Francis builds brides - not walls. Pope Francis is a man of compassion and love. By his example he is a true leader.
If we follow Trump's message, I dread the eventual outcome. In the 1930’s a very advanced and civilized country followed the same path of hate and division consequently leaving millions dead and most of that country’s major cities reduced to rubble.
Let’s hope sanity prevails in November.
Pope Francis encourages brotherhood and inclusiveness. He asks that we be kind and help one another. He shows us that we are all God's (or evolution’s) children regardless of race, color, or creed. As Mr. Yardley states in this article Pope Francis builds brides - not walls. Pope Francis is a man of compassion and love. By his example he is a true leader.
If we follow Trump's message, I dread the eventual outcome. In the 1930’s a very advanced and civilized country followed the same path of hate and division consequently leaving millions dead and most of that country’s major cities reduced to rubble.
Let’s hope sanity prevails in November.
1
There are many issues with which I take significant exception when it comes to Vatican doctrine, but I have profound admiration for Pope Francis. Let us not for a moment be foolish enough to even remotely intimate that there is any equivalency between the Pope's true populist message, and the nativist, racist, xenophobic, ignorant rantings of the vulgar boor, Donald Trump. This pope's positions emanate from a lifelong passion for and dedication to those most downtrodden and vulnerable in the world; Trump is interested solely in himself, and will stoop to unspeakably vile depths in order to gin up and then actually celebrate the Neo-Confederate white extremists who support his ludicrous and narcissistic charade of a campaign. Please stop the nonsense - Trump is no populist!
1
When did Trump become a "leader?" He's a businessman running for the office of President of the United States. Only if he is elected will he become any kind of "leader."
1
The article presents a valid, thoughtful analysis. My objection is with the headline. Calling both the Pope and Donald Trump "leaders" in the same headline implies a weirdly "values-neutral" outlook that distorts the truth. Pope Francis is a leader. Trump is a self-aggrandizing manipulator who takes advantage of ignorance plus fear to captivate voters into promoting him to a position he does not deserve.
2
I believe the Pope like any person who lives an authentically spiritual life recognizes that Mr. Trump embodies all of the qualities that make a person not spiritual- being self-centered, egotistical, crass, judgemental, obnoxious, dividing, fear mongering, and the list can go on on on.
I admire the Pope for taking a stance on Mr. Trump. Trump's place is not in politics which inherently requires a position of civil servitude. In this race, the only entity that Trump seeks to serve his ego.
I admire the Pope for taking a stance on Mr. Trump. Trump's place is not in politics which inherently requires a position of civil servitude. In this race, the only entity that Trump seeks to serve his ego.
1
We no longer live in an era where the Catholic CHurch could tell rulers what to do, and often made decision who should rule, and fielded large armies to enforce their view of who should rule. This is a millenia behind us. Unfortunately Pope Francis, who is from Argentina, a counrty in which the Church is more powerful than in most other countries, does not understand that the Pope should no longer interfere in the secular world - that day has long past.
He needs to understand why Pope John Paul II was a better Pope than he is. Francis has become a bit of a busy-body iterfereing in the Secular world and in many cases causing people to turn away from the interference of the Church.
Personally this interference in the secular world is why I left the church. I feel any church that wants to interfere in the secular world should lose its tax-free status and be taxed like any other political entity. This is NOT the Middle Ages - the Church needs to remember this.
He needs to understand why Pope John Paul II was a better Pope than he is. Francis has become a bit of a busy-body iterfereing in the Secular world and in many cases causing people to turn away from the interference of the Church.
Personally this interference in the secular world is why I left the church. I feel any church that wants to interfere in the secular world should lose its tax-free status and be taxed like any other political entity. This is NOT the Middle Ages - the Church needs to remember this.
If my comment is a duplication of earlier ones, apologies. I hadn't time to read them all.
The definition of Pontiff is "bridge builder"- as were all the priest-members of the ancient Roman Pontifex (pons = bridge in Latin. Why is it surprising that Pope Francis, the current Pontiff, finds D. Trump not to be a bridge builder? Walls divide, bridges unite.
See the Pew Research Forum on History of the Clergy in the US Congress:- Two Roman Catholics priests served in the US Senate, MANY Protestant pastors in the past and some in the current Congress. Never a rabbi. The outrage about the clergy in politics seems quite manufactured to me. Wherever the outrage comes from. There has never been, as far as I know, a real divide between religion and politics, however much we want there to be one. We have a Constitution that provides the basis for separation of Church and State, which we should try to honor as Americans. That dividing line isn't a wall - and it isn't a bridge - but merely a reminder that Americans are free under law to practice their religions, or no religion, without the interference of the State. And the State should remain free of any interference or pressure by any religion.
As an non-observant Jew - an atheist really (how many of us declare themselves and get elected?) - I value the "bridge builder" and regard the "divider" as having little value moral or ethical value.
The definition of Pontiff is "bridge builder"- as were all the priest-members of the ancient Roman Pontifex (pons = bridge in Latin. Why is it surprising that Pope Francis, the current Pontiff, finds D. Trump not to be a bridge builder? Walls divide, bridges unite.
See the Pew Research Forum on History of the Clergy in the US Congress:- Two Roman Catholics priests served in the US Senate, MANY Protestant pastors in the past and some in the current Congress. Never a rabbi. The outrage about the clergy in politics seems quite manufactured to me. Wherever the outrage comes from. There has never been, as far as I know, a real divide between religion and politics, however much we want there to be one. We have a Constitution that provides the basis for separation of Church and State, which we should try to honor as Americans. That dividing line isn't a wall - and it isn't a bridge - but merely a reminder that Americans are free under law to practice their religions, or no religion, without the interference of the State. And the State should remain free of any interference or pressure by any religion.
As an non-observant Jew - an atheist really (how many of us declare themselves and get elected?) - I value the "bridge builder" and regard the "divider" as having little value moral or ethical value.
1
Mexico is a basket case thanks, in no small part, to the pernicious influence of the Roman Catholic Church which prohibits contraceptives, prohiibits abortions, and encourages young, poor, and barely educated females to have enormous families.
The lives of Native Americans in what we now call Mexico was destroyed by the Spanish Conquistadors, dispossessing, murdering and raping the populace, using the Cross and the Sword, all in the name of the Church of Rome, to conquer territories for Castille and Aragon.
Mexico should not be exporting its problems to its neighbours. Rather, Mexico needs to reduce its enormous, unemployed and unemployable population by the widespread use of free contraceptives and free abortions, and by keeping girls in school, sending them to college and university so thst they can earn a living.
The lives of Native Americans in what we now call Mexico was destroyed by the Spanish Conquistadors, dispossessing, murdering and raping the populace, using the Cross and the Sword, all in the name of the Church of Rome, to conquer territories for Castille and Aragon.
Mexico should not be exporting its problems to its neighbours. Rather, Mexico needs to reduce its enormous, unemployed and unemployable population by the widespread use of free contraceptives and free abortions, and by keeping girls in school, sending them to college and university so thst they can earn a living.
3
I find it refreshing and long overdue for a major religious leader to question whether one can truly claim fidelity to Christianity while pursuing public polices that reflect cruelty and callousness toward others. Dr. King used to question how one could accept the teachings of Jesus on Sunday yet embrace segregation on Monday?
In a world racked by war, poverty, degradation of the world ecology and the conscious infliction of so much unnecessary suffering I hope that the Pope is joined by other religious leaders to add their voice to admonish our politicians that being a person 'of faith' is not enough. If Christian virtue means something then it has to be reflected in some way. In national leaders that means policies that reflect those values and that stand as a beacon to others.
In a world racked by war, poverty, degradation of the world ecology and the conscious infliction of so much unnecessary suffering I hope that the Pope is joined by other religious leaders to add their voice to admonish our politicians that being a person 'of faith' is not enough. If Christian virtue means something then it has to be reflected in some way. In national leaders that means policies that reflect those values and that stand as a beacon to others.
2
The Times and all the media are slanting what the Pope said to ensure an uproar.
First of all, while this was an answer to question about Trump, the Pope does not specifically mention Trump.
Second, the part about "Not Christian" is taken completely out of context. The translated answer he gave as quoted in the Times was - "A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,”
This says that ANY person (not just Trump) who only wants to exclude others rather than embrace them is not acting like a Christian. It does not accuse the person of not being a Christian but says they are not practicing Christian beliefs.
This is quite different from the feeling one gets from most of the articles in the press which lead the reader to believe that the Pope said Trump was not a Christian
P.S. I am neither Catholic nor religious
First of all, while this was an answer to question about Trump, the Pope does not specifically mention Trump.
Second, the part about "Not Christian" is taken completely out of context. The translated answer he gave as quoted in the Times was - "A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,”
This says that ANY person (not just Trump) who only wants to exclude others rather than embrace them is not acting like a Christian. It does not accuse the person of not being a Christian but says they are not practicing Christian beliefs.
This is quite different from the feeling one gets from most of the articles in the press which lead the reader to believe that the Pope said Trump was not a Christian
P.S. I am neither Catholic nor religious
2
Thank you for this insightful analysis. Pope Francis' words spoken on his flight home referred obliquely to Mr Trump but directly to the attitude of exclusion and fear that contributes to the degradation of humanity. It is a message for all of us to heed, and it seems to have rankled Mr. Trump considerably. The pope's vocation is complex- he is at once a bridge builder ( the linguistic translation of "pontiff") and a prophetic sign of contradiction, a herald of the beloved community - rather like Martin Luther King, Dorothy Day, and Jesus. As a Catholic, I am so thankful for Pope Francis, and as a struggling human being and Aristotelian political person, I pray that our great country may live up to its promise of "liberty and Justice for all."
2
Pope Pius was castigated for not doing enough for the Jews. Such castigation was justified. There were few voices defending the powerless in Europe.
Now, right wingers castigate Pope Francis for 'overstepping his boundaries'.
Some Americans don't mind challenging hate when it is packaged historically and in a distant country. But not in our America. As though our brand of hate is somehow justified and considered harmless.
This is insanity.
Frankly, the right wing in America as well as Europe have become very inhuman in their pronouncements and spread of the message of hate.
Hatred of the foreigner, hatred of the powerless, demonization of those less fortunate are abundant themes once again.
Those who would deny the pope a platform to speak about such ills, as though these issues should only be treated by governments, are hopelessly deluded.
If the pope did not talk about issues of poverty and hate he would not be doing his job.
And, if in America, hate is in the ascendancy then it needs to be countered.
Evangelicals and Catholics are simply not following the Gospel when they follow the preachers of hate.
Now, right wingers castigate Pope Francis for 'overstepping his boundaries'.
Some Americans don't mind challenging hate when it is packaged historically and in a distant country. But not in our America. As though our brand of hate is somehow justified and considered harmless.
This is insanity.
Frankly, the right wing in America as well as Europe have become very inhuman in their pronouncements and spread of the message of hate.
Hatred of the foreigner, hatred of the powerless, demonization of those less fortunate are abundant themes once again.
Those who would deny the pope a platform to speak about such ills, as though these issues should only be treated by governments, are hopelessly deluded.
If the pope did not talk about issues of poverty and hate he would not be doing his job.
And, if in America, hate is in the ascendancy then it needs to be countered.
Evangelicals and Catholics are simply not following the Gospel when they follow the preachers of hate.
2
Yet the Pope never pointed directly to, or addressed Trump specifically. The question (from the journalist) was generic enough to address most of the GOP candidates, plus a pretty big swath of the American population! Many of which claim to be Christians.
Yet this article among many others, and the TV news coverage is making this into a Pope vs. Trump only incident. Which is just bad journalism.
Plain and simple, the media made this about Trump. Not the Pope. Even if the Pope knows Trumps positions, it would then follow he'd also know the others GOP candidates positions as well and would have all of them in mind when commenting on such a question.
So what if the Pope is being more political. American Christians of any stripe - especially those seeking office wearing their faith on their sleeves, pretending it makes them better and more qualified men - should never toss that first stone at the Pope. And No Protestant American Christian leader should dare even think about even picking up one of those stones to toss at the Pope! Far too many American Christian leaders spend far too much of their time involved in politics! So for Americans of any sort to blame such things on the Pope is a hypocrisy with few rivals.
The Pope is a political figure at this point in time...in fact it would be hard to find a Pope that didn't wade into the political waters now and again.
The Pope simply pointed to the moral absurdity of the border wall. Its a dumb idea from any logical angle.
Yet this article among many others, and the TV news coverage is making this into a Pope vs. Trump only incident. Which is just bad journalism.
Plain and simple, the media made this about Trump. Not the Pope. Even if the Pope knows Trumps positions, it would then follow he'd also know the others GOP candidates positions as well and would have all of them in mind when commenting on such a question.
So what if the Pope is being more political. American Christians of any stripe - especially those seeking office wearing their faith on their sleeves, pretending it makes them better and more qualified men - should never toss that first stone at the Pope. And No Protestant American Christian leader should dare even think about even picking up one of those stones to toss at the Pope! Far too many American Christian leaders spend far too much of their time involved in politics! So for Americans of any sort to blame such things on the Pope is a hypocrisy with few rivals.
The Pope is a political figure at this point in time...in fact it would be hard to find a Pope that didn't wade into the political waters now and again.
The Pope simply pointed to the moral absurdity of the border wall. Its a dumb idea from any logical angle.
3
The Pope (like Bernie Sanders) is trying to eliminate the causes of anger by addressing "structural inequities deriving from the global capitalist order" as the article states.
Trump on the other hand like conservative so called "Catholics" (how can a true Catholic show contempt for the head of the church?) exploit anger. Trump and the Pope's "Catholic" critics turn anger into fear to maintain their disgusting lifestyles.
Trump on the other hand like conservative so called "Catholics" (how can a true Catholic show contempt for the head of the church?) exploit anger. Trump and the Pope's "Catholic" critics turn anger into fear to maintain their disgusting lifestyles.
4
This op/ed indicates omits both the complete question posed to the Pope, and, even more importantly, the Pope's complete answer (or did I miss them?). Hence, instead of context we get lines like "The Francis-versus-Trump dynamic is undeniably a made-for-media clash", which in itself smells to me of "media clash".
One doesn't have to be ignorant of the difference between Church doctrine and Trump bombast to recognize the excessive and all-too-eager media hype, this op/ed included.
One doesn't have to be ignorant of the difference between Church doctrine and Trump bombast to recognize the excessive and all-too-eager media hype, this op/ed included.
2
I I believe that the Pope did not mention Trump by name - just people who build walls -.could be walls anywhere. This Pope is truly a man of the people - he lives a simple life and ministers to the poor and oppressed. Do evangelicals do the same? The Charleston congregation forgave the white man who shot nine people. Do evangelicals have the same compassion? Mr. Trump was too quick to take offense. And those who defend his outrageous behavior - are you truly Christian? The false photos in campaign advertising, denial of documented statements - remember - do not bear false witness - it's not just Mr. Trump that has moral elasticity or wants to build walls - add Cruz, Rubio and Bush.
1
The arguments the Republican commentariat was throwing at Francis reflect both their limited understanding of the world and their dis-ingenuity. They are bother by a Christian leader that stands up for the poor immigrants, the Indigenous people, the environment, everything Republicans stand against.
3
The poor and oppressed in Mexico are majority Catholic who are forbidden by their church to use contraception thus propagating poverty. Women are 2nd class church members who are denied positions of leadership. I consider these doctrines unchristian. Lest the Pope forgets, the good work done by the Catholic Church is financed ~60% by capitalists in the United States.
5
Talk about a false equivalence. Donald Trump is not the "leader" of anything. At this writing, he's been involved in 2 elections, one of which he lost.
On the other hand, the pope would have been wiser, I think, to simply let his mass at the border resonant on its own. I strongly feel that foreign leaders should stay out of U.S. elections, and singling out a candidate in any way actually is kind of "disgraceful."
On the other hand, the pope would have been wiser, I think, to simply let his mass at the border resonant on its own. I strongly feel that foreign leaders should stay out of U.S. elections, and singling out a candidate in any way actually is kind of "disgraceful."
2
If Trumpism was to take hold in this country and then spread like cancer to the rest of the world, it would be a sad and scary setback to the progress man has made towards a more empathetic society.
When someone, such as the Pope, has the power to fight that cancer I think he sees it as his moral duty to do so. Thank God, if there is one.
When someone, such as the Pope, has the power to fight that cancer I think he sees it as his moral duty to do so. Thank God, if there is one.
2
Trump's endless and brazen attacks are ballooning his negative ratings among the voters. At the end, ironically, the very tactics that propel him as a GOP front runner will prevent him from becoming the President of the United States. Moreover, he is quickly running out targets. He may have to go after Jesus Christ the Messiah very soon. To a guy like Trump who grew up privileged (attending a military school but deferred to go to Vietnam due to a bone spur in a foot that he did not remember), Jesus was just a loser and a third world preacher who did not build any business empire or ran for Senate in Rome.
4
This article largely misses the point about foreign interference in domestic politics. Would Americans be so tolerant, even supportive, if the chief rabbi of Israel or the chief imam of Saudi Arabia denigrated a candidate for President and implicitly demanded his co-religionists act accordingly? And those are not even centralized, hierarchical religions.
In addition, the Pope is not only the undisputed leader of a major religion, but also the head of a state duly recognized as such by the State Department. Thus, in that regard we are dealing with a situation parallel to Netanyahu interferience in American elections, a situation most Americans properly regarded with disdain.
In recent decades much of the traditional suspicion and enmity between Catholics and Protestants in America has substantially abated. Sadly, I can easily imagine John Kennedy rolling over in his grave, as the current action by the Pope will, unfortunately, rekindle those flames in some quarters.
In addition, the Pope is not only the undisputed leader of a major religion, but also the head of a state duly recognized as such by the State Department. Thus, in that regard we are dealing with a situation parallel to Netanyahu interferience in American elections, a situation most Americans properly regarded with disdain.
In recent decades much of the traditional suspicion and enmity between Catholics and Protestants in America has substantially abated. Sadly, I can easily imagine John Kennedy rolling over in his grave, as the current action by the Pope will, unfortunately, rekindle those flames in some quarters.
6
This comment is thinly disguised Trumpism. The Pope didn't "interfere" with our domestic politics. He was talking about a border (international) situation about which one of our public figures has made numerous comments disparaging the poor and desperate.
If Trump, or anyone, is free to call Latinos who are trying to escape a desperate situation "dope dealers and rapists," the Pope is free, almost duty-bound, to call him out as having an un-Christian attitude toward the vulnerable.
If protestants from "some quarters" want to turn this into an anti-Catholic campaign of some sort, perhaps they should re-read their own bibles, especially the words of Christ which are very clear about how the poor should be regarded and treated.
If Trump, or anyone, is free to call Latinos who are trying to escape a desperate situation "dope dealers and rapists," the Pope is free, almost duty-bound, to call him out as having an un-Christian attitude toward the vulnerable.
If protestants from "some quarters" want to turn this into an anti-Catholic campaign of some sort, perhaps they should re-read their own bibles, especially the words of Christ which are very clear about how the poor should be regarded and treated.
3
How about s prime minister snubbing the sitting president and speaking to congress!
Lisa, as I wrote in my comment, "Thus, in that regard we are dealing with a situation parallel to Netanyahu's interference in American elections, a situation most Americans properly regarded with disdain."
1
I have a gut feeling that Mr. Trump has made a big mistake in criticizing the Pope Francis. The whole exchange has likely opened the eyes of millions of Catholics (and others) who will be voting. It opened mine.
2
Trump criticized the pope? I'm no trump fan but the pope made the first nutty accusative remark about trump's unchristian character and American immigration policy.
While you're at it, since you're advocating voting by religious blocks, tear up the constitution stuff about separating church and state affairs.
While you're at it, since you're advocating voting by religious blocks, tear up the constitution stuff about separating church and state affairs.
Frankly I'm sick of hearing about DT and the pope. The press elevates DT every single day with their slathering over him and gives a religious leader entirely too much attention - particularly during election season in America. I swear the press thinks they should choose the next President. Every national news broadcast covers the same issues the same way and every debate, except the one by Gwen Eifel and Judy Woodruff of the PBS New Hour, manages to give us NO new understanding of where candidates stand on the issues. How about giving us some real news, boys and girls?
12
The Catholic Church faces 2 crises today: (1) there is still resistance to naming, expelling & criminally prosecuting all rapist priests & those religious who abused or tormented children & vulnerable young adults; also, those who abetted or covered for these criminals. That is the great moral crisis, the worst ever. (2) There is the problem of collecting money. The thing is, Jesus explicitly says in the Gospels, when referring to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, "What ye received for free, give for free." While the Old Testament has tithing, Jesus explicitly disassociated His church from the collection of payments. And yet the Catholics, as a number of recent authors have pointed out, not only created the Indulgence scam for profit, they still solicit donations. God does not get the money, obviously. Pope Francis comes from a philosophical secular position that says, "Take all the money & give it to the poor." But rational people also know that the poor, like lottery winners, gain little from a one-time windfall. Societies such as the USSR or Mao's China, where wealth was redistributed by force, 'oddly' did not become affluent or even prosperous. Instead, they turned the entire populace into starving beggars... Selling off Vatican assets, as Francis would wish to, will only Destablize global markets (and may indeed have already begun). Wealth must be managed; it cannot simply be liquidated & thrown at the millions who will line up for an extra$50. Attentive,wise reforms needed.
3
Both Pope Francis and Donald Trump have toned down the "Christian" issue hyped up by the media. The pope is still learning to become a diplomat and not answer hypothetical questions and Donald is learning not to shoot every person critical of his ideas or proposals. The press is also bringing up polls on the day the real polling takes place in South Carolina. With Rubio getting some heavy duty props like endorsements from Gov. Nikki Haley and Senator Tim Scott he is bound to rebound and make take the second place by taking votes from Donald. A win even with a slim margin for Donald in SC against all odds will be a big win. Rubio will remain viable if he gets into second place. The day of reckoning is here and so let us wait for the voters to have their say.
1
The axiom "anger, dislocation, spiritual alienation and economic inequality" equal Trump's populism sounds a bit far-fetched. The ones in the lower tier of society are angry, dislocated, alienated and economically unequal precisely because of a political message like Trump's; he certainly does not fish in the sea of their discontent, but in the one of billionaires' fear of angry, dislocated, alienated and economically unequal masses that are the result of economic disparities propagated by him and his followers.
1
There's not much to this event. Likely Trump got it right. Someone in Mexico was whispering in the Pope's ear about the bad Americans wanting to build a wall, and he bit.
The pope obviously knows little about American politics and not enough to stay out of a presidential campaign. No surprise, given his lack of understanding about our economy, the opportunity it affords, etc.
You'd think that the pope might have figured out if so many were crashing our borders, there might be something to capitalism that he's missing.
The pope obviously knows little about American politics and not enough to stay out of a presidential campaign. No surprise, given his lack of understanding about our economy, the opportunity it affords, etc.
You'd think that the pope might have figured out if so many were crashing our borders, there might be something to capitalism that he's missing.
11
He sure enjoys all those tithes, which come from capitalism. Otherwise, he might be forced to sell part of the trillions of dollars worth of priceless art and artifacts that are in the Vatican.
2
Some obvious questions about the Pope's motivations and this analysis:
1. If "the excesses of capitalism" are the problem, why does the Pope want so many people to be able to move from less capitalist countries (in South America, Africa, and the Middle East) to more capitalist ones like Germany, the UK, and above all, the U.S.?
2. Isn't a "divided border" redundant? That's what borders do, divide the world into countries, including the Vatican. Perhaps the Pope should spend more time condemning those countries that violate others' borders than those that try to maintain their own.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21693071-russia-wants-its-people-be...
3. Trump may, "more than anyone ... symbolize the excesses of capitalism" because of those big gold signs on fancy buildings but he is alone among Republican candidates in not wanting to cut Social Security and favoring generous government health insurance for the poor. Shutting off the endless supply of unskilled immigrants is also the best way to increase the wages of the least educated Americans.
4. If the Pope is so concerned about poverty and environmental degradation shouldn't he encourage contraception--not just condone it as he sensibly did for women exposed to Zika--for those who already have more children than they can provide for? It's hard to see how making the developed world as overcrowded as the developing one is going to help anyone.
1. If "the excesses of capitalism" are the problem, why does the Pope want so many people to be able to move from less capitalist countries (in South America, Africa, and the Middle East) to more capitalist ones like Germany, the UK, and above all, the U.S.?
2. Isn't a "divided border" redundant? That's what borders do, divide the world into countries, including the Vatican. Perhaps the Pope should spend more time condemning those countries that violate others' borders than those that try to maintain their own.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21693071-russia-wants-its-people-be...
3. Trump may, "more than anyone ... symbolize the excesses of capitalism" because of those big gold signs on fancy buildings but he is alone among Republican candidates in not wanting to cut Social Security and favoring generous government health insurance for the poor. Shutting off the endless supply of unskilled immigrants is also the best way to increase the wages of the least educated Americans.
4. If the Pope is so concerned about poverty and environmental degradation shouldn't he encourage contraception--not just condone it as he sensibly did for women exposed to Zika--for those who already have more children than they can provide for? It's hard to see how making the developed world as overcrowded as the developing one is going to help anyone.
8
Thank you for your sensible addition to what is otherwise an echo chamber of praise for the Pope in these comments.
1
Forget religion, it is largely irrelevant here or the fight between two popular but polar opposite people. Look at the bigger picture. Do you want to live in a country that feels the need to isolate itself, to wall itself off from the rest of the world, or do you want to live in a country that can embrace the world and through it's influence create prosperity for all? It is American ideals that have brought the world the relative prosperity we have today. Those ideals have not been about isolationism, or xenophobia. Yes we have warts, but by and large those warts pale in comparison to the ranging cancers that are prevalent elsewhere. It is the expectations of negative consequences, hence obstructionism at every turn, and fears of the Republicans about loss of power that have held back our ability to reach out and create a more prosperous world. A prosperity that would eliminate much of the strife currently going on.
4
"Populism" is the bourgeois political version of "totalitarianism": an ideologic attempt to glue together socialism/communism and nazifascism. It's a sham, a fantasy term to ensure that the capitalist class rule is the only civilized rule.
I found it very strange in the beginning reading in American media the use of this term to Bernie Sanders. Here in Brazil, when we call a politician a "populist", we are being very specific: it's a right-wing politician that unashamedly promises absurd things to the people with the only goal of gathering votes, only to do the exact opposite thing when they are in power. In other words, a right-wing that knows it can't say it's real program to the people, and lies to get elected (by definition, every fascist is a populist).
I found it very strange in the beginning reading in American media the use of this term to Bernie Sanders. Here in Brazil, when we call a politician a "populist", we are being very specific: it's a right-wing politician that unashamedly promises absurd things to the people with the only goal of gathering votes, only to do the exact opposite thing when they are in power. In other words, a right-wing that knows it can't say it's real program to the people, and lies to get elected (by definition, every fascist is a populist).
4
Some here consider principled, left, democratic-socialists, who are overtly anti-war, anti-tyranny, and anti-Empire to be more honest like Bernie --- particularly if they 'expose', publicly 'call-out', and commit to non-violently confront this Disguised Global Capitalist Empire that has 'captured', controls, and now nearly fully "Occupies" our former country as its nominal metropole HQ, merely 'posing' as the "U.S. state" while using/abusing its 'hard and soft' super-power "apparatus":
"The U.S. state is a key point of condensation for pressures from dominant groups around the world to resolve problems of global capitalism and to secure the legitimacy of the system overall. In this regard, “U.S.” imperialism refers to the use by transnational elites of the U.S. state apparatus to continue to attempt to expand, defend, and stabilize the global capitalist system. We are witness less to a “U.S.” imperialism per se than to a global capitalist imperialism. We face an empire of global capital , headquartered, for evident historical reasons, in Washington."
"The U.S. state is a key point of condensation for pressures from dominant groups around the world to resolve problems of global capitalism and to secure the legitimacy of the system overall. In this regard, “U.S.” imperialism refers to the use by transnational elites of the U.S. state apparatus to continue to attempt to expand, defend, and stabilize the global capitalist system. We are witness less to a “U.S.” imperialism per se than to a global capitalist imperialism. We face an empire of global capital , headquartered, for evident historical reasons, in Washington."
I speak, as a non-Catholic, in strong support of Pope Francis in his comments and overall stance on Donald Trump and immigration. If we ever needed a voice of moral clarity on the issue of wealth versus poverty that lies at the very heart of Francis' Papacy and Trump's Presidential campaign, Pope Francis is the one person in the Western world to do it. He has been unwavering in his outspoken support of "the transcendent dignity of the human being" as he remarked to Congress recently, especially those of "greater vulnerability and risk." Donald Trump seeks to exploit and punish those very people for his own selfish pursuit. It is callous; it is not compassionate; and, yes, it is certainly not Christian. In my youth we criticized Pope Pius XII for not being political enough is speaking out against the fascism of Hitler and Mussolini. We must applaud not condemn Pope Francis for exposing the cruel immorality of this latest demagogue.
10
I do not know why The Pope only mentioned Trump since Cruz also mentioned building the wall. He should have mentioned both. This pope is a refreshing breath of fresh air. He also with common sense allowed birth control for those afraid of the danger to their children in Latin America.
2
He didn't mention Trump, the questioners did, he was referring to all who want to build walls,
1
I don't get the word "populist" in describing either man. It's a meaningless term in every sense.
2
Jim Yardley writes:
"The Francis-versus-Trump dynamic is undeniably a made-for-media clash. But overlooked in that frame is that each man has diagnosed the same currents in society, fishing for followers in seas churning with anger, dislocation, spiritual alienation and economic inequality."
I respectfully disagree on this one point. The Pope does not pray upon the weak with an intent to deceive and feed upon their frailty. He is a noble leader that helps men rise to their highest aspirations and ideals. Trump- difficult to even mention in the same breath-seeks vengeance on the world for having slighted him- a privileged billionaire from birth who feels unjustly abused. And in his revenge he seeks to debase, destroy and bring others to his madness.
Their appeal- who they appeal to and of course what the represent- are quite different.
"The Francis-versus-Trump dynamic is undeniably a made-for-media clash. But overlooked in that frame is that each man has diagnosed the same currents in society, fishing for followers in seas churning with anger, dislocation, spiritual alienation and economic inequality."
I respectfully disagree on this one point. The Pope does not pray upon the weak with an intent to deceive and feed upon their frailty. He is a noble leader that helps men rise to their highest aspirations and ideals. Trump- difficult to even mention in the same breath-seeks vengeance on the world for having slighted him- a privileged billionaire from birth who feels unjustly abused. And in his revenge he seeks to debase, destroy and bring others to his madness.
Their appeal- who they appeal to and of course what the represent- are quite different.
8
Catholicism in general, and liberation theologians in particular, absolutely feed on poverty and misery; it is their shtick. In the same vein, human rights NGOs thrive on their lack. Perversely, they become similar to what Ike warned Americans about, the military industrial complex. The beasts must be fed.
The Vatican is its own country with its own monarch, the pope. It has complete control over itself. Some call that "sovereignty" and would like their own country to enjoy the same experience.
11
Exactly how many of the Muslim "refugees" that entered the EU have been given sanctuary by the Vatican?
1
Not Mark...
I am not a Catholic, and I am not a Christian. But I have liked this Pope, and respect him deeply. It is but imperative that one be political in the wake of acute inequality, injustice and inhumanity. That politics itself for some is "God given" or "God guided" or "God preferred". Not to speak against injustice would be a sin. It is interesting that that Pope of the Catholic church and Trump of the Conservative party disagree...because they are both conservative. But we can see how one conservatism can lead to humility, service and compassion, the other Conservatism to bombast, bluster, self promotion and a big ego. But Trump does say some smart stuff like "Maybe boycotting Apple might be a good thing" with lots of stupid stuff. The Pope mostly says compassionate stuff with occasional provocation.
I am not a Catholic, and I am not a Christian. But I have liked this Pope, and respect him deeply. It is but imperative that one be political in the wake of acute inequality, injustice and inhumanity. That politics itself for some is "God given" or "God guided" or "God preferred". Not to speak against injustice would be a sin. It is interesting that that Pope of the Catholic church and Trump of the Conservative party disagree...because they are both conservative. But we can see how one conservatism can lead to humility, service and compassion, the other Conservatism to bombast, bluster, self promotion and a big ego. But Trump does say some smart stuff like "Maybe boycotting Apple might be a good thing" with lots of stupid stuff. The Pope mostly says compassionate stuff with occasional provocation.
7
Trump is a vulgar man, a cad undiluted. A scion of privilege and wealth, and a huge ego to match, he missed out on culture and developing a taste for the finer things in life, but readily succumbed to blatant ignorance and bigotry. He is self-seeking and dishonest to a fault. His career has brought him into contact with the first men of his time while he prefers the company of rustic ignoramuses. It is hard to believe, watching him now trying his hand at politics of high office that he always seems only a poor clod like those around him, deluded by a childish theology, full of an almost pathological hatred of all learning, all human dignity, all beauty, all fine and noble things. He is a peasant come home to the dung-pile. Imagine a gentleman, and you have imagined everything that he is not.
19
Dang, that's caustic, but right, and good.
2
Pope's admonition of Trump is not a new one.
Even Jesus admonished his people of following a convoluted theory of amassing immense wealth and still calling them believers in God.
And the result being the Crucifixion of Jesus.
Now, what Trump and his followers have to know that no one can hate somebody just because they're different from them, if they want to call themselves Christians.
So as we can see that the campaigning style of Trump comes nowhere near the teachings of Jesus because every words that's coming out of Trump's mouth is nothing but distancing himself and his core followers from the rest of humanity .
Trump wants to build the walls between his people and the Mexicans and Muslims who come to America to work and not to sell drugs or rape American women as alleged by Trump.
And one case that Trump cites all the time in all his Campaign stops, about an undocumented Mexican killing an innocent American woman called Kathryn Steinle in a San Francisco pier was nothing but an accident.
Now for that death do all the Mexicans have to pay a price and Mexico pay for the wall even if that undocumented worker from Mexico is found guilty.
Come on, Mr. Trump .
You must be kidding.
Is this idea really coming from a God fearing true Christian who swears by Jesus that he read the Bible but cannot even say clearly which version of Bible he read when confronted by 2 reporters in his Trump Tower last year ?
No.This presidential candidate is no Christian.
I know it.
Even Jesus admonished his people of following a convoluted theory of amassing immense wealth and still calling them believers in God.
And the result being the Crucifixion of Jesus.
Now, what Trump and his followers have to know that no one can hate somebody just because they're different from them, if they want to call themselves Christians.
So as we can see that the campaigning style of Trump comes nowhere near the teachings of Jesus because every words that's coming out of Trump's mouth is nothing but distancing himself and his core followers from the rest of humanity .
Trump wants to build the walls between his people and the Mexicans and Muslims who come to America to work and not to sell drugs or rape American women as alleged by Trump.
And one case that Trump cites all the time in all his Campaign stops, about an undocumented Mexican killing an innocent American woman called Kathryn Steinle in a San Francisco pier was nothing but an accident.
Now for that death do all the Mexicans have to pay a price and Mexico pay for the wall even if that undocumented worker from Mexico is found guilty.
Come on, Mr. Trump .
You must be kidding.
Is this idea really coming from a God fearing true Christian who swears by Jesus that he read the Bible but cannot even say clearly which version of Bible he read when confronted by 2 reporters in his Trump Tower last year ?
No.This presidential candidate is no Christian.
I know it.
7
I am confused by the Pope vs. the Donald comparison. As far as I can tell, the only thing they have in common, is the use of the word "the" in front of their names; which in Trump's case, is a cheap imitation.
To me the differences are very clear. The Pope is taking a position that social justice is required to elevate the poor.
In contrast, the Donald belongs to a political party whose basic premise is that the only thing that ever motivates the shiftless, is a healthy dose of social injustice.
This is true, not just for the Donald, but for all of his Republican compatriots, like the Cruz, who not only knows Jesus, but also knows that a higher Federal Minimum Wage would savage the poor, and delights in telling us so - his standard "sermon on the management of the dung heap" - which gladdens the hearts of his pious followers.
Who needs the Devil, when you have the Cruz?
To me the differences are very clear. The Pope is taking a position that social justice is required to elevate the poor.
In contrast, the Donald belongs to a political party whose basic premise is that the only thing that ever motivates the shiftless, is a healthy dose of social injustice.
This is true, not just for the Donald, but for all of his Republican compatriots, like the Cruz, who not only knows Jesus, but also knows that a higher Federal Minimum Wage would savage the poor, and delights in telling us so - his standard "sermon on the management of the dung heap" - which gladdens the hearts of his pious followers.
Who needs the Devil, when you have the Cruz?
20
Symbols are very important in our world and those that know how to use them will always be ahead of the crowed. To me the Pope and the Trump is the same man. Both showman with an agenda. The pope trying to make people forget about the kiddie molestation of his institution and try to repair the escape of the Latin Americans to other religions. The institution of the Catholic Church most survive at all cost. Bureaucracy most survive and will fight to the end to do so. That is why they got the guy. They were running scared. Trump runs on fear. Fear this or that. It is all their fault that your lives are miserable. Point the finger at this and that and you will win. Let us take America back to the McCarthy era but instead of communism is illegal aliens. He makes this people sound like animals that most be corralled and expelled, instead of the human being they are. People are so easily led. I fear for my country. We need leaders that see things clearly and help us get out of the mess that Reaganomics and the Bush administration's excrement placed this fair country in the trouble it is now. We don't have much of a choice here but to choose a lesser evil for our next leader. That is a difficult task at hand. We most keep our wit and really delve into the candidates that will run our country for the next 4 year. If we don't we will find ourselves in a larger hole. Who do we want to give such a grand power? Because in reality we are giving our power away.
1
Pope Francis may be walking on shaky ground when he says Donald
Trump is not a Christian.
Pope Francis may be walking on shaky ground when he says Donald Trump is not a Christian. Was the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church Christian when it beheaded Franz Jagerstatter on Aug.20,1943 in agreement with the German government because Franz said he would not kill for an evil government.
Pope Francis is walking on shaky ground when he says Donald Trump is not a Christian. Was the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church Christian when it beheaded Franz Jagerstatter was beheaded on Aug. 20, 1943 in
agreement with the German government because Franz said he would not kill for an evil government...and the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church signed an agreement with the German government agreeing that Franz was wrong. As a Roman Catholic, I ask Pope Francis...was the hierarchy Christian?
Trump is not a Christian.
Pope Francis may be walking on shaky ground when he says Donald Trump is not a Christian. Was the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church Christian when it beheaded Franz Jagerstatter on Aug.20,1943 in agreement with the German government because Franz said he would not kill for an evil government.
Pope Francis is walking on shaky ground when he says Donald Trump is not a Christian. Was the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church Christian when it beheaded Franz Jagerstatter was beheaded on Aug. 20, 1943 in
agreement with the German government because Franz said he would not kill for an evil government...and the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church signed an agreement with the German government agreeing that Franz was wrong. As a Roman Catholic, I ask Pope Francis...was the hierarchy Christian?
2
Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air on a world stage that is filled with far too many morally stunted individuals such as Trump and Cruz. We've come a long way from 'give me your huddle masses' or more recently "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Sadly the me generation isn't just an American failing, rather it appears to be a global affliction.
We need more world leaders that possess a developed morale fiber and care for humanity. We need global leaders that are interested in finding common goals that benefit the majority, rather than accentuate and prey on our differences. We need a lot less id in our world leaders.
We need more world leaders that possess a developed morale fiber and care for humanity. We need global leaders that are interested in finding common goals that benefit the majority, rather than accentuate and prey on our differences. We need a lot less id in our world leaders.
7
Pope Francis is a moral authority to the world. Trump, and Republicans, should pay heed. They thought that inviting him to speak to Congress would buttress their own twisted views about women's lack of rights, but instead the pope spoke about environmental priorities.
It is not just the excess and the fascism of people like Trump, Republicans in Congress, and the Kochs and other 1% era, it is also their total blindness to all the good they could do. The Sermon on the Mount seems never to have been heard by them: They certainly don't regard the poor as anything but the despised 47% and the "takers", and in their world view it is not the meek who shall inherit the earth. Forget also about the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers, and others who will enter heaven.
Strange times, but it is also part of the pope's job to speak truth to power.
It is not just the excess and the fascism of people like Trump, Republicans in Congress, and the Kochs and other 1% era, it is also their total blindness to all the good they could do. The Sermon on the Mount seems never to have been heard by them: They certainly don't regard the poor as anything but the despised 47% and the "takers", and in their world view it is not the meek who shall inherit the earth. Forget also about the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers, and others who will enter heaven.
Strange times, but it is also part of the pope's job to speak truth to power.
8
Donald Trump is a Leader? That's news to me.
Doesn't the Times have that headline wrong?
Doesn't the Times have that headline wrong?
5
And what of a candidate who promises to eliminate healthcare for millions, as almost all in the GOP contest have? Or one who favors cutting taxes on the richest, piling more weight onto the backs of future generations?
The GOP field is the antithesis of Christianity.
The GOP field is the antithesis of Christianity.
7
The Pope and Mr. Trump should not be mentioned in the same sentence!
3
Trump is not a populist. He's a demagogue.
5
The belief in treating others with respect, and building bridges rather than walls is not religious dogma. It is just basic human kindness that can be found in every religion in the world. Do people no longer care that this country was created to give a home to those who needed a place where they would be free to pursue any religion they wanted? This was the place people came to flee starvation and wars in their homeland. We have a statue in NY harbor with a beautiful welcome letter at her feet speaking to that long history. Shall we elect Trump, so he can put a gun instead of a torch in Lady Liberty's hand and turn Ellis Island into a jail for those waiting to be deported?
4
I would say, "My heart is with the Pope and my brain with Trump." But actually no one's brain is with Mr. Trump. His followers are not motivated by intelligence but by passion.
Still, the Pope is unrealistic and I am completely with Mr. Trump in pointing to the wall around the Vatican. The Pope is not "hypocritical" - he did not build the wall and if it had not existed he probably would not build one.
But of course the wall is necessary. And Mexico, where he recently visited, actually has tough immigration laws, tougher than ours.
Still, the Pope is unrealistic and I am completely with Mr. Trump in pointing to the wall around the Vatican. The Pope is not "hypocritical" - he did not build the wall and if it had not existed he probably would not build one.
But of course the wall is necessary. And Mexico, where he recently visited, actually has tough immigration laws, tougher than ours.
5
Pope Francis needs to send his populist message more forcefully to Latin and Central American oligarchs who sit on their wealth refusing to care for their own people while American taxpayers not only pick up the slack but see $100 billion leave this country every year to support Latin feudalism.
Follow the money to the source of the problem and preach to those who can really effect change not those who have been asked to endlessly sacrifice for the sake of their wealth and power.
Follow the money to the source of the problem and preach to those who can really effect change not those who have been asked to endlessly sacrifice for the sake of their wealth and power.
8
Our illegal immigrant problem is completely a Mexican problem. People crossing the border are certainly fleeing toward opportunity to work in the US, but they are mostly being driven away from an unfair & stagnant economy led by a corrupt, inept, and totally self serving Mexican government & political class.
The pope is indeed political, especially in the sense that he believes that only *government* can be the solution to a problem that government, itself, has created. But the Mexican government can only help by getting out of the way, not more involved. He is apparently willfully blind to any other view.
In Mexico that means reducing barriers to starting businesses and reducing regulations that harm the ability to maintain those businesses. More government programs will only further help & entrench the corrupt political elites, not the poor.
The pope is indeed political, especially in the sense that he believes that only *government* can be the solution to a problem that government, itself, has created. But the Mexican government can only help by getting out of the way, not more involved. He is apparently willfully blind to any other view.
In Mexico that means reducing barriers to starting businesses and reducing regulations that harm the ability to maintain those businesses. More government programs will only further help & entrench the corrupt political elites, not the poor.
5
Trump could claim to be Hindu or Muslim and it would carry toe same weight as claiming to be christian. And the so called christian evangelicals that Trump is kissing up too are as political as they come. They follow the money. Trump can't speak of his faith because he has none. His favorite book, the Bible, hes yet to read and it doesn't support the"rich man". Trump would have been thrown out of the temple. The Pope is spot on about Trump.
3
There is no "wall" between politics and morality. Ultimately political decisions and actions are founded on moral impulses. So a statement by the Pope which is grounded in a moral precept (e.g. "Thou shalt not grind the faces of the poor" in the Old Testament) cannot avoid having political consequences.
Trump and his ilk seem to have but one moral impulse: win at all costs. WE all know what sort of politics this engenders, because we are living in it.
Trump and his ilk seem to have but one moral impulse: win at all costs. WE all know what sort of politics this engenders, because we are living in it.
3
Mahatma Ghandi once said: "Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is."
Keep in mind that the pope simply said “A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian," after being asked about Trump. He did not explicitly say Trump was or was not Christian.
It's up to all of us to decide whether we agree with the Pope's statement and then, if we agree with it, to decide how well all of our would-be leaders, not just Trump, live up to that message.
Frankly, when our candidates begin and end debates by thanking God, it seems completely reasonable for a religious leader to suggest what it means to be Christian as the lines have long been blurred.
Keep in mind that the pope simply said “A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian," after being asked about Trump. He did not explicitly say Trump was or was not Christian.
It's up to all of us to decide whether we agree with the Pope's statement and then, if we agree with it, to decide how well all of our would-be leaders, not just Trump, live up to that message.
Frankly, when our candidates begin and end debates by thanking God, it seems completely reasonable for a religious leader to suggest what it means to be Christian as the lines have long been blurred.
4
Thoughtful comment, thanks1
Jesus was political and didn't hesitate to confront worldly injustice when he saw it. Remember the money changers in the temple? Even in his compassion, saving the woman from stoning for the sin of adultery, he was pushing back agains the Jewish Law. In his own words, "Think not that I am come to send peace on the earth, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34) He was crucified for treason, accused of being the King of the Jews. His life and ministry was a very real threat to the occupying force from Rome.
So Christian does not mean avoiding the political, it calls for speaking truth to power. And Francis is talking about global issues it behooves us all to ponder and confront.
Is the Pope perfect? Nope. You can criticize him for plenty of things. Is he nonetheless saying what needs to be said? I think so, but that is my political view spoken as a Christian.
So Christian does not mean avoiding the political, it calls for speaking truth to power. And Francis is talking about global issues it behooves us all to ponder and confront.
Is the Pope perfect? Nope. You can criticize him for plenty of things. Is he nonetheless saying what needs to be said? I think so, but that is my political view spoken as a Christian.
3
The Holy Father is the representative of Jesus on earth. Every Minute he is thinking "What would Jesus do"? If Jesus was on Earth today, he would say exactly what Francis said. HE would speak out against injustice that creates poverty. He would despise discrimination. Donald Trump is just another symbol of continuing battle between those who love and those who loath.
After making his comments about those who build walls, Francis probably knelt down and prayed for Trump asking God to give him wisdom and soften his heart. After all, he loves Donald as he loves everyone.
After making his comments about those who build walls, Francis probably knelt down and prayed for Trump asking God to give him wisdom and soften his heart. After all, he loves Donald as he loves everyone.
Name one majority Catholic country enjoying stable, majority population inclusive success . One oddity, the U.S., with it's Supreme Court, majority Catholic??
4
Pope Francis just meet and legitimized Castro, the real anti-Christian in the room. South American priest are, politically, generally left of Lenin.
4
It seems a bit myopic to see a man who sits atop a vast, indeed world-wide, structure of wealth as a "man of the poor." The Pope is just like any other man on the public stage who as risen to success in a large bureaucracy. His organization happens to cloak itself as a benefactor of the poor. These days, major world-wide corporations publish annual corporate reports on their social stewardship, some of these reports are even audited by third party organizations to provide some transparency. Perhaps the Pope should do the same before he wanders the globe spouting off about the "Christianity" of others.
15
At first I thought you were talking about Donald Trump. It's beyond me how anyone could call the Pope "any other man."
1
Although I am an atheist, the Pope is an admirable man. The idea that he is criticized for being political is absurd. Jesus was ardently political. Martin Luther King, Jr. was political.
Religion is political or it is meaningless.
Religion is political or it is meaningless.
7
Lots of distortions in this 'analysis.' I am being kind, since that seems to be the topic underlying the holier than thou message that pervades this piece. I don't think that the issue is whether or not to aid those who are going without the basics of life. The obligation to do so is a given. The question is how to do so.
A not very minor point about Jorge Bergoglio's remarks: he has indicated that he was not launching a personal attack. What he actually said is not what is being said that he said. This is not without precedent in the somewhat frantic coverage of this man. But the media have narratives to keep, and miles to go while half-asleep.
A not very minor point about Jorge Bergoglio's remarks: he has indicated that he was not launching a personal attack. What he actually said is not what is being said that he said. This is not without precedent in the somewhat frantic coverage of this man. But the media have narratives to keep, and miles to go while half-asleep.
1
The Pope represents respect for the dignity of all human beings: Trump, not so much.
3
It's not enough that you compare Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Now it's on to the pope. Setting up this false equivalence at every turn is another example of the NYT's loss of standards.
5
A Pope that has taken both his appointment and his faith seriously should not be political fodder for the media by placing him on the same level as Trump. Trump is a celebrity politician. Pope Francis is an international figure of global consequence, who can influence the world's outcome through a thoughtful and pressing spiritual message. Pope Francis addresses the soul. Trump is addressing materialism.
3
La Stampa and almost all the press have distorted the pope's challenge to Donald Trump in my opinion for the sake of the very contentious headline. For me, the analysis needs to run along these lines: the pope is Latino and the wall adds pressure to all Latin America; this challenge to Trump is a response by the Latino pope to the buzz everywhere among Mexicans about Trump and the wall; it is a Latino thing to support pressures on Latin America coming from the north; it happens all the time on different issues and runs through all the Latin American communities north and south; the pope responded as a Latino. But, gracious as the pope is, he offered Trump an out. The pope suggested that if Trump would talk about bridges and if Trump would build bridges than he would not be excluded from being a Christian. Trump went halfway later in this press distorted exchange by saying that the pope was really a good guy. Trump could have and should have talked about his bridges to his own Mexican workers and simply agreed with the pope that building walls without building bridges is not a good practice. Nevertheless, the reference to the walls of the Vatican was an ironic image all over the media.
2
Same diagnosis but opposite solution: One eliminates the anger by removing causes the other exploits it by turning it into fear.
The article states that populists like Mr. Trump blame foreigners for inequities, but Francis like Bernie point to structural inequities deriving from the global capitalist order.
Sanders a lot like the Pope, has come to the same solution to the problems we face. It is antithetical, in fact it is the very antipode of Trump's non-solutions. It is astonishing that a lot of the press including the NYT has conflated Trump with Sanders as anger driven candidates.
If one listens carefully to Sanders there is as much anger as the Pope has - none. Even when the Pope was pulled violently and almost fell to the ground all he said was "do not be selfish". A lot like Christ who overturned the tables of the money changers at the temple not driven by anger but simply righting a wrong.
Sanders has been falsely accused as a liar indulging in voodoo when in fact those accusing Sanders are lying indulging in Voodoo. None of the Republicans believe the climate change is a real horrific threat that we should do anything about it. Yet the NYT called Sanders a liar for saying no Republican believes in climate change, making a Voodoo distinction that one may believe in climate change but...also be unwilling to address it!
Francis like Bernie are practical in their willingness to engage with reality. There is nothing practical about ignoring problems.
The article states that populists like Mr. Trump blame foreigners for inequities, but Francis like Bernie point to structural inequities deriving from the global capitalist order.
Sanders a lot like the Pope, has come to the same solution to the problems we face. It is antithetical, in fact it is the very antipode of Trump's non-solutions. It is astonishing that a lot of the press including the NYT has conflated Trump with Sanders as anger driven candidates.
If one listens carefully to Sanders there is as much anger as the Pope has - none. Even when the Pope was pulled violently and almost fell to the ground all he said was "do not be selfish". A lot like Christ who overturned the tables of the money changers at the temple not driven by anger but simply righting a wrong.
Sanders has been falsely accused as a liar indulging in voodoo when in fact those accusing Sanders are lying indulging in Voodoo. None of the Republicans believe the climate change is a real horrific threat that we should do anything about it. Yet the NYT called Sanders a liar for saying no Republican believes in climate change, making a Voodoo distinction that one may believe in climate change but...also be unwilling to address it!
Francis like Bernie are practical in their willingness to engage with reality. There is nothing practical about ignoring problems.
3
The Pope is simmply following the Christian princciple to love thy niehbor. Trump on the other hand is acting like the spoiled brat that he is. How anyone can take Trump seriously is beyond my ken.
2
The press misunderstood or misquoted Pope Francis. He never said Trump was not a Christian. He never used Trump's name. He was asked a question about Trump's views and said,
"Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as "animal politicus." So at least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.
Note the 'if' in each of the last two sentences.
"Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as "animal politicus." So at least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.
Note the 'if' in each of the last two sentences.
5
The HEADLINE in the NYT was "Pope Francis says Donald Trump is not a Christian".
You can look it up.
You can look it up.
From reading the comments this reminds me of the parable of sowing the seeds. Jesus said that some seeds will fall on fertile ground some on rocky ground. The seed, which is the message, will only take root in the fertile ground. The Pope's job is to just spread the seeds, where it takes root is up to God. I also liked the reference to Jonah, Jesus used that too.
1
“Trump becomes the metaphor of an egotistical and racist Christianity"
Enough said.
Enough said.
2
I would have liked it more had the Pope took aim at Mr. Trump and his fellow Republican candidates on their foaming at the mouth to repeal the Affordable Health Care Act.
The Pope's already won the battle over illegal immigration, as it has been well documented that the Republicans - inspite of the campaign rhetoric of those running for the Presidency - intend to do nothing about it.
The Pope's already won the battle over illegal immigration, as it has been well documented that the Republicans - inspite of the campaign rhetoric of those running for the Presidency - intend to do nothing about it.
To those of us who are not practicing Catholics and, one suspects, even to many who have no religion, mentioning Donald Trump and Pope Francis in the same breath -- as though they were simply populists on the same mission, but with different methods – is profane.
3
Pope Francis recently returned from his trip to Mexico. One of the places that the Pope visited was Chiapas, where the Roman Catholic people have been severely persecuting Protestant Christians. Many Evangelical Christians have had their ALL of property and possessions confiscated, before being tossed into jail. Christianity Today reported that an Evangelical church was broken into, and burned down, the night before Pope Francis arrived. Bible-believing Christians are having their utilities cut off, and banished from the land, and even threatened with lynching, according to that same report. Why were the Protestant Christians treated that way? What was their crime? They simply refused to convert to Roman Catholicism! Pope Francis did not utter a single word regarding those gross atrocities. Are you going to tell me that the Pope was not aware of what was going on in Chiapas, Mexico? Pope Francis was riding around in his Pope-Mobile, when there were true Christians nearby who were left without anything! The Pope did ABSOLUTELY nothing. Does the Pope have a conscience? Is the Roman Catholic Pope a Christian? (Matthew 7:13-23) If it were the Roman Catholics who were being persecuted, you can rest assured that Pope Francis would his way to the front page of every newspaper in the world! The politicians running for USA President should be asked what, and when, they are going to do to something about this.
4
Ironically, as in all things Trump, his remarks belie the facts. He started the tempest, essentially, with his comments that the Pope was a tool of the Mexican government, a political person. As one TV commentator said, the Pope probably doesn't even know who Trump is.
Francis' answer began with the words, " A person who.." never quoting the Trump name which the reporter had noted. The Pope's answer applied across the board to any and all who would build walls, not bridges, something most of the Republican candidates should note. Their silence speaks volumes.
The irony is that Trump has played well to evangelical voters, who proclaim Christian virtue while cheering enmity, prejudice and a foreign policy that sounds very much like going to battle. The real story is the contrast between the Pope and some of his own Bishops in the United States and between the Pope and the alleged Christian leaders of various Protestant sects and organizations. That analysis would be much more fruitful.
Francis' answer began with the words, " A person who.." never quoting the Trump name which the reporter had noted. The Pope's answer applied across the board to any and all who would build walls, not bridges, something most of the Republican candidates should note. Their silence speaks volumes.
The irony is that Trump has played well to evangelical voters, who proclaim Christian virtue while cheering enmity, prejudice and a foreign policy that sounds very much like going to battle. The real story is the contrast between the Pope and some of his own Bishops in the United States and between the Pope and the alleged Christian leaders of various Protestant sects and organizations. That analysis would be much more fruitful.
33
Walls have been built as protecting since the time of Severus in Ancient Rome. They are being built today and will be built in the future. Their purpose is always the same. To keep invaders of all kinds OUT.
How could the church and the Vatican teach us morality or represent God on the Earth if Jesus Christ never mentioned with a single word any need for the professional clergy, the churches, or the Vatican placed in Rome, intimately close to the Roman Emperor and “miraculously” organized as the carbon copy of the military hierarchy of the Roman Empire.
How could Donald Trump protect his country when the spike in his personal wealth coincided with the spike of our national debt?
Does anybody believe that Mr. Trump would have personal wealth of $8 billion if the government collected enough taxes to balance the federal budgets during the last three decades?
He is either not speaking the truth or is not smart enough to understand the relationship between cause and consequence.
The same could be said for Pope Francis.
He is as much God’s representative on the Earth as the unauthorized biography correctly represents the life of some person.
In both cases the key link is missing – the authorization…
How could Donald Trump protect his country when the spike in his personal wealth coincided with the spike of our national debt?
Does anybody believe that Mr. Trump would have personal wealth of $8 billion if the government collected enough taxes to balance the federal budgets during the last three decades?
He is either not speaking the truth or is not smart enough to understand the relationship between cause and consequence.
The same could be said for Pope Francis.
He is as much God’s representative on the Earth as the unauthorized biography correctly represents the life of some person.
In both cases the key link is missing – the authorization…
The Pope Francis and Tump are too different!!!!!
The Pope Francis is a humble, pious, compassionate and wise man fighting for world peace and moral values.
Trump is a clown, a rude, a bully and a sexist that only preaches discrimination, hatred and ignorance.
There is no way to compare them, they are totally different!
The Pope Francis is a humble, pious, compassionate and wise man fighting for world peace and moral values.
Trump is a clown, a rude, a bully and a sexist that only preaches discrimination, hatred and ignorance.
There is no way to compare them, they are totally different!
2
This reportage was very useful. Thank you.
1
Such an odd headline-"populist" leaders- Trump either draws out or creates the lowest part of people while the Pope encourages our better selves. I am not Catholic and I am inspired and encouraged by this pope. Trump' s world view excludes people. The pope's world view includes Christian and non Christians- that is populism.
2
Trump's the good guy here. The catholic church's stance on contraceptives is a grave danger to the livelihood of everyone in the third world. These countries will remain indefinitely impoverished until attitudes change about family planning and abortion and they are no longer weighed down by explosive population growth that is far beyond most of their capacities to deal with. Unfortunately, the catholic church is stringently opposed to that sort of thing. I'm sick of seeing the pope talked about as if he is some sort of the saint. Historically, and presently, the catholic church has been an ultra-reactionary force that has exploited the naivete of their poor followers for massive financial gain (does the pope not sit on a throne of gold in the Vatican?). It is not a force for good in the world.
3
If the Pope wants to get involved in U.S. elections I hope the U.S. will get involved in revoking his church's tax exempt status. By the way, I enjoyed the Times article about the Pope's girlfriend a while back.
4
False equivalence in the NYTimes has hit a new nadir with this article.
4
The Pope needs to stick to what he does best and that is enrich the Catholic church by milking donations from poor Catholics
3
Trump always speaks for himself. Others like the Pope, speak for themselves until they get into trouble, then they hide behind a "spokesperson"!
3
The analysis of Pope of the situation of the Mexican labor in the US was I think even more simple than stated in this article. He wondered about the ethics of the wall.
The US is effectively hooked, intoxicated on cheap Mexican labor. In order to keep the labor cheap enormousness walls are build to make clear to the cheap foreign laborers that the are "not" wanted.
A fine of $ 100.000 per illegal laborer would be more effective and much more cheaper. But it would also drain the US of this cheap labor. And let's be honest. That is something nobody wants. We want our cheap labor, by people we effectively put in the bounds of slavery! Who else is gone get the products of the plantation?
And yes Mr trump came up in this speech by the Pope. Not because he wanted to give the Americans an advice on how to vote. He simply wondered how the Christian conscience of a man like Mr. trump must look like.
But I guess the Pope also made an adjustment of error by not understanding that in the US the accumulation of wealth is seen as a good thing. It is the price that God gives you for being a good Christian.
So I understand when Mr. trump says that he is a good Christian. He has got the money to prove it !!
The US is effectively hooked, intoxicated on cheap Mexican labor. In order to keep the labor cheap enormousness walls are build to make clear to the cheap foreign laborers that the are "not" wanted.
A fine of $ 100.000 per illegal laborer would be more effective and much more cheaper. But it would also drain the US of this cheap labor. And let's be honest. That is something nobody wants. We want our cheap labor, by people we effectively put in the bounds of slavery! Who else is gone get the products of the plantation?
And yes Mr trump came up in this speech by the Pope. Not because he wanted to give the Americans an advice on how to vote. He simply wondered how the Christian conscience of a man like Mr. trump must look like.
But I guess the Pope also made an adjustment of error by not understanding that in the US the accumulation of wealth is seen as a good thing. It is the price that God gives you for being a good Christian.
So I understand when Mr. trump says that he is a good Christian. He has got the money to prove it !!
If there is nobody speaking the truth everything is possible.
Mr. Trump allegedly had been fighting for his countrymen by getting extremely personally wealthy. The Popes represented God on the Earth by having a cordial relationship with the local tyrants. The same tyrants represented the people by torturing them and depriving of the basic human rights and freedom.
That’s what the immigrants are running from…
Mr. Trump allegedly had been fighting for his countrymen by getting extremely personally wealthy. The Popes represented God on the Earth by having a cordial relationship with the local tyrants. The same tyrants represented the people by torturing them and depriving of the basic human rights and freedom.
That’s what the immigrants are running from…
1
Comparing Pope Francis, shepard to 1.2 Billion Catholics doesn't correspond to the mere 17 of 1237 delegates that Mr. Trump has ginned up so far in a country 1/4 that size. (The equivalent flock for Trump so far is 4.1M Americans).
To what Gospel does Mr. Trump base his "populism" upon? The "Art of the Deal"? Pope Francis attempts to remind the world of the teachings of Jesus in a world that is abandoning the societal roots of organized religion and looking for answers in "reducing big government", with the guarantee that corporations can take care of the masses.
The ultimate test between the two comes from Matthew 19:24 - that it is easier for Camel to pass through the eye of a needle before a rich man gives up his wealth to enter the kingdom of God. Ask Mr. Trump that and his response would be fascinating to hear. Probably that Jesus (along with the Pope) were a "friars" (suckers). However we must continue to believe that all things are possible with God.
To what Gospel does Mr. Trump base his "populism" upon? The "Art of the Deal"? Pope Francis attempts to remind the world of the teachings of Jesus in a world that is abandoning the societal roots of organized religion and looking for answers in "reducing big government", with the guarantee that corporations can take care of the masses.
The ultimate test between the two comes from Matthew 19:24 - that it is easier for Camel to pass through the eye of a needle before a rich man gives up his wealth to enter the kingdom of God. Ask Mr. Trump that and his response would be fascinating to hear. Probably that Jesus (along with the Pope) were a "friars" (suckers). However we must continue to believe that all things are possible with God.
1
When right wing populists said it was the Jews that were holding us back, many believed them. Now it Muslims and Latinos. It has been tried. It worked for a while but with a terrible cost in the long run. Will we never learn? First, the government came for them and I was silent.....
2
Very interesting assessment. I never would have associated Trump with the Pope's Christian populism, but then again there certainly are some fascinating dynamics going on in this campaign of 2016.
I couldn't help but think when the Pope blames the culture of capitalism itself for the malaise of the downtrodden, he sounds more like Bernie Sanders than Trump. Since I don't believe Trump has any political philosophy at all certainly is not a deep thinker, it's kind of funny to make any comparison between him and the Pope. And as The Times debates here and elsewhere about the right of the Pope to speak out in the electoral process, let's remember he is not making urging political choices as much as he is using the words of politicians to reinforce a world view of mercy - which is very much his right to do.
Certainly someone has to do it, given the circus like atmosphere of this campaign and the media'seem complicit involvement this circus to raise ratings. Who better than the Pope who disdains luxury and warns against the ill effects of capitalism run amok?
I couldn't help but think when the Pope blames the culture of capitalism itself for the malaise of the downtrodden, he sounds more like Bernie Sanders than Trump. Since I don't believe Trump has any political philosophy at all certainly is not a deep thinker, it's kind of funny to make any comparison between him and the Pope. And as The Times debates here and elsewhere about the right of the Pope to speak out in the electoral process, let's remember he is not making urging political choices as much as he is using the words of politicians to reinforce a world view of mercy - which is very much his right to do.
Certainly someone has to do it, given the circus like atmosphere of this campaign and the media'seem complicit involvement this circus to raise ratings. Who better than the Pope who disdains luxury and warns against the ill effects of capitalism run amok?
5
Donald Trump doesn't know the difference between saying he's a Christian and acting like a Christian.
6
There is an unholy alliance between Donald Trump and Pope Francis.
None of them wants to address the Achilles heel of each other.
Mr. Trump is allegedly very patriotic but sees nothing wrong with him accumulating $8 billion in personal wealth while his country has sunk $19 trillion in debt. If he were any smart he would have understood that his personal wealth came at expense of his country. There was no such level of the personal wealth 35 years when the priority was to protect the country and collect the taxes.
Pope Francis saw nothing wrong with the practice of the Vatican over the last century to quietly support the rule of the worst dictators across the Latin America. The Popes did not challenge the right of the dictators to rule the people with the brute military power. The tyrants in return saw nothing wrong with the Popes being God’s representative on the Earth while being elected by the church cardinals.
The common sense is that you represent those who elected you. If the clergy elected you, then you represent the interests of the church and try to have the good friendly relationship primarily with the earthly rulers, not with the heavenly father.
None of them wants to address the Achilles heel of each other.
Mr. Trump is allegedly very patriotic but sees nothing wrong with him accumulating $8 billion in personal wealth while his country has sunk $19 trillion in debt. If he were any smart he would have understood that his personal wealth came at expense of his country. There was no such level of the personal wealth 35 years when the priority was to protect the country and collect the taxes.
Pope Francis saw nothing wrong with the practice of the Vatican over the last century to quietly support the rule of the worst dictators across the Latin America. The Popes did not challenge the right of the dictators to rule the people with the brute military power. The tyrants in return saw nothing wrong with the Popes being God’s representative on the Earth while being elected by the church cardinals.
The common sense is that you represent those who elected you. If the clergy elected you, then you represent the interests of the church and try to have the good friendly relationship primarily with the earthly rulers, not with the heavenly father.
1
Kenyan, you might want to think more deeply about your "election" analogy.
Who 'elected' to send Christ to earth in order to confront Empire with Love?
Liberty, democracy, equality, and justice
Over
Violent (and dual-party Vichy)
Empire,
Alan
Who 'elected' to send Christ to earth in order to confront Empire with Love?
Liberty, democracy, equality, and justice
Over
Violent (and dual-party Vichy)
Empire,
Alan
Alan,
am absolutely sure about quality of my analogy.
I compared Donald Trump to Pope Francis.
The former claims that he represents the people of America. The latter claims that he represents God.
God didn't elect Pope Francis. The cardinals did. The people didn't elect Donald Trump.
Why would they? He collected the enormous wealth at expense of pushing America into $19 trillion debt. The smart and honest people would understand the only reason he got so rich is by saddling America with the enormous national debt.
Otherwise, he would be the first to fight for the balanced budgets.
Has he ever uttered this simple idea?
If I represented God on the Earth I guarantee you that the Catholic Church would be underground in any undemocratic country and opposed to all the dictators in this world.
If the church is sharing the stage with the worst dictators, it’s serving the tyrants, not the Almighty.
am absolutely sure about quality of my analogy.
I compared Donald Trump to Pope Francis.
The former claims that he represents the people of America. The latter claims that he represents God.
God didn't elect Pope Francis. The cardinals did. The people didn't elect Donald Trump.
Why would they? He collected the enormous wealth at expense of pushing America into $19 trillion debt. The smart and honest people would understand the only reason he got so rich is by saddling America with the enormous national debt.
Otherwise, he would be the first to fight for the balanced budgets.
Has he ever uttered this simple idea?
If I represented God on the Earth I guarantee you that the Catholic Church would be underground in any undemocratic country and opposed to all the dictators in this world.
If the church is sharing the stage with the worst dictators, it’s serving the tyrants, not the Almighty.
Trump should return to building HOTELS. I think that he took the Pope's message much too literally. I think that erecting a wall is much too drastic. Negotiations and screening those who navigate across the border should be vetted by highly trained government personnel.Trump is quite the contrarian, radical, and obstructive. Frankly speaking, I don't know what Trump stands for. He is erratic in his ideas, We don't know what to expect to hear emerging from his mouth.
3
Comparing Pope Francis and Trump?
They don't even live in the same universe.
Why not compare Gandhi and Joe McCarthy?
They don't even live in the same universe.
Why not compare Gandhi and Joe McCarthy?
15
Very apt analogy.
1
The Vatican is surrounded by a WALL ...for what reason ?
Thou a Republican, and not a fan of Donald Trump...What happened to the separation of church and state? This was a verbal mishap on the part of the Pope. Am truly embarrassed at what we have to offer in the upcoming election for President of the United States of America.
Thou a Republican, and not a fan of Donald Trump...What happened to the separation of church and state? This was a verbal mishap on the part of the Pope. Am truly embarrassed at what we have to offer in the upcoming election for President of the United States of America.
5
Only part of Vatican City is enclosed by a wall -- the part with offices, residences, etc. It's no different than having a tall iron fence around the White House. The rest of the Vatican is open to the public.
1
Gee Mary Ann, don't you remember carl Mcintyre in the nixon years? how about that jerry falwell who founded a university including a law school to pump out political evangrelicals. think billy graham was not political? there is a long list.
Just look up. Look at the sky. We are here in an infinite Universe. What is important is that we are on a planet, together, in an infinite Universe. Humans are pack animals. We need to snuggle up, try to love each other.
3
Thanks for you uplifting theology. God is one in that we are all ONE.
2
Waiting to see.a picture of two New Yorkers together to give a new twist on Christianity fantasizing: Donald Trump arm and arm with Cardinal Dolan.
2
". . . Crime, like disease, is not interesting: it is something to be done away with by general consent, and that is all [there is] about it. It is what men do at their best, with good intentions, and what normal men and women find that they must and will do IN SPITE of their intentions, that really concern us."
from the preface to Bernard Shaw's Saint Joan
from the preface to Bernard Shaw's Saint Joan
2
We wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem if Mexico and other Latin nations would simply take responsibility for their own people. Even a little improvement in health and welfare would decrease mass migration to the U.S. five fold. In the meantime- We the U.S. allow their corrupt multi-millionaire leaders and officials to buy homes and property here, as well as educate their children while their masses toil for food and other basic necessities. Why does our government allow stupid stuff like this to happen?
6
There is no excuse for the Latin American countries to abdicate the responsibility of their citizens to the US. Interesting that few ever address the corruption and violence there and expect us to take care of their citizens. Some in those countries are profiting greatly while we are left with higher taxes every year ($500 here) to pay for the education of the new arrivals and unknown expenses in free medical care, free rent and food. Senior citizens and middle class people are the ones who suffer. Then there is the additional crime from the gang members who came - just recently 3 murders. Where is the outrage??
3
Quit with this stupidity. Pope Francis and Donald Trump are not opposing sides of the same coin. I'm embarrassed for the thought. What is with the obsessive need of journalists today to promote equivalence, however nonsensical? Sycophancy? Youth? Laziness? Or maybe just an obvious outgrowth, 30 years in the making, of a consumerist, capitalist media who had forgotten their role as a public watchdog.
14
AC: Thank you for saying it!
The unintended consequence of the Pope's statements may be to add to the celebrity of Trump and hence the popularity of his bigoted views.
Of course Pope Francis is political; he closely follows the teachings of one of the most political figures in human history - Jesus Christ.
10
The Pope and Trump sparring proves that reality TV show possibilities are truly infinite.
2
I am waiting for Vatican City to take in Syrian refugees and tithe 10% of it's wealth to the poor in Italy.
I am waiting...
I am waiting...
7
They have the treasury resources to house every refugee in the world.
2
Vatican City is one-eighth the area of Central Park. It's not a country so much as it is a collection of offices, libraries, museums and residences. The Pope has challenged individual parishes to take in refugee families ... It is through those local efforts of the Church around the world that action to help the refugees-- and many other acts of mercy--are performed.
This illustrates that in reality, religious people do not follow the teachings of religious leaders, but rather, they choose leaders that agree with their own views. the religious are not looking to be taught, they are looking for a group to support and validate their preexisting views. In church, if the pastor expresses an idea that a parishioner does not share, they are more likely to leave the church then to reexamine their views. All churchgoers have see this happen. Since Catholics believe the Pope is infallible, it is slightly surprising that churchgoing Catholics would reject the Pope's words in favor of Trumps. I think it shines a light on what religion really, fundamentally is to churchgoers...a political party/social club.
4
There is no such thing as "the" religious any more than there is such a thing as "the African Americans".
Note that a week ago, the court had six Catholics and did not overturn Roe v Wade.
Note that a week ago, the court had six Catholics and did not overturn Roe v Wade.
1
As a Catholic, I am thrilled that the Pope has unequivocally stated the message of the Gospel that we should not incite and encourage people to build walls. But on the other hand, we have a right to protect our borders from those who are bringing drugs and crime into this country.
3
First, most of the people coming in from the south are poor folks who are simply looking for work. Your statement reeks of the brand of xenophobia Trump and the GOP has been selling.
Second, public education - especially in the south, on the border of Mexico - is in much need of help. Simply look at how uneducated folks are down south. Look at teen pregnancy in red states. At poverty. At drug use. Past experience tells us that education is what is needed to fight these things.
How can it be that people have been duped into thinking those much needed funds would be better used building a silly wall?
Second, public education - especially in the south, on the border of Mexico - is in much need of help. Simply look at how uneducated folks are down south. Look at teen pregnancy in red states. At poverty. At drug use. Past experience tells us that education is what is needed to fight these things.
How can it be that people have been duped into thinking those much needed funds would be better used building a silly wall?
"Francis and Trump: Populist Leaders Preaching Divergent Messages"
one of the most misleading and awful headlines i have seen in NYT.
to even consider these two in comparison is utterly devastating.
please. Pope Francis is a world leader, educated and speaking to peace, equality and love.
Trump is an uneducated opportunist spewing hatred and racism.
the world is watching.
one of the most misleading and awful headlines i have seen in NYT.
to even consider these two in comparison is utterly devastating.
please. Pope Francis is a world leader, educated and speaking to peace, equality and love.
Trump is an uneducated opportunist spewing hatred and racism.
the world is watching.
5
Pope Francis projects strength and firmly held beliefs, and he publicly advocates an environmental and economic agenda that is embraced by the American political left. He uses his office and his title to persuade world opinion and effect change in bureaucratic systems. In other words, he is a politician. He is allowed to enter that arena, but once in, his ideas and public statements are fair game for political analysis.
1
Even tho I'm not Catholic,
Also hope I'm no dope;
'Tween church and the half-wit
I'll go with the Pope.
Also hope I'm no dope;
'Tween church and the half-wit
I'll go with the Pope.
4
So a religious leader questions a man's faith, because he happens to believe something different? Sounds like a Pharisee to me. Regardless, the Pope realized he had been duped by a reporter that asked a leading question. Is a good thing the Vatican walked these comments back today.
3
The Golden Rule:
“One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.”
Matthew 7:12
Donald Trump will face pay-back big-time !!!
“One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.”
Matthew 7:12
Donald Trump will face pay-back big-time !!!
2
Trump v. the Pope
Sorry the Pope lowered himself to try to communicate with the witless Don Trump.
Religion causes such trouble on this planet.
Sorry the Pope lowered himself to try to communicate with the witless Don Trump.
Religion causes such trouble on this planet.
1
Growing up, all my mom harped on to me and my sister was her going on about how we were supposed to be "good Christians", by not doing this or not doing that. She meant well, I guess, but at least she kept it to just me and my sister and not total strangers whom she knew nothing about. Her "out of bounds" non-judgementalism was maybe the one thing that actually gave her a shred of credibility about what she was telling me and my sister. Too bad this pope feels he's got to take "being mom" to everybody so publicly. It does genuine mothers and fathers a real disservice and devalues them for the sake of his own institutional and international prestige.
2
You do realize that as the leader of over a billion Catholics worldwide, it is his job to provide guidance, right? He always has. I personally am an atheist, but even I realize that the Pope is doing his job.
1
They are both crazy.
I have been a life long Catholic. However, Francis has really overstepped his role. He should be very careful pushing Trump who will very quickly show the short comings of the Catholic Church. Why we can't have female priests is an abomination that needs to be rectified. Talk about an organization that is horrifically behind the times! Francis should not go after Trump or anyone else in the US political scene without opening the Catholic Church to incredible criticism which they deserve!!
19
Humbug! the Pope did not overstep anything. Francis simply stood his ground: Christian Faith builds bridges that unite not walls that separate.
3
While I'm a non-RC Christian, I think you bought into the media's hype. Pope Francis was asked a question by a reporter. He never said the name Trump and refused in a follow-up question to advise your co-religionists how to vote. Long before the U.S. presidential campaign Francis was speaking out for migrants being treated with dignity and human rights. He was speaking out about exploitation of workers and in Mexico condemned corrupt politicians and the drug trade among other issues. The Pope was not getting into a grudge match with the demagogue, and even Trump later said the Pope's remarks were taken out of context and exaggerated by tabloid journalism.
3
This Pope has tried to turn the Catholic Church away from corrupt and callous practices. But he is not God, and he has been on the job for only a short time. And there is MUCH wrong with the Catholic Church, stuff that's been going on for decades, even centuries; and there are MANY in the church who are against the Pope. You would blame him, the person trying to reconcile & fix the church's wrongdoings, for ALL of the church's sins. But I suppose all of the Conservative Christian Leaders, heavily involved in politics, you would hold them blameless for all the sins certain Christian denominations have committed in this country & abroad. You probably don't rebuke them when they criticize leaders & entire segments of the population. Why not?
1
This article largely misses the point about foreign interference in domestic politics. In fact, the Pope's actions give credence to the argument that Catholic priests should have to register as agents of a foreign government under the Foreign Agents Registration Act. After all, not only is the Pope the supreme leader of a major religion, but he is also head of a state duly recognized as such by the State Department, and priestly vows bind them to that foreign Head Of State.
The preceding article, "Donald Trump Fires Back at Sharp Rebuke by Pope Francis" appears very slanted in that, while it correctly points out how rare it is for a Presidential Candidate to criticize a Pope, it gives precious little regard to how rare it is for a Pope to insert himself directly into national campaigns for political office in America. This seems especially egregious in that the Times amply covered the effort of another leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, to insert himself in such manner.
In recent decades much of the suspicion and enmity between Catholics and Protestants in America has substantially abated. The current action by the Pope will, unfortunately, rekindle those flames in some quarters. Sadly, I can easily imagine John Kennedy rolling over in his grave.
The preceding article, "Donald Trump Fires Back at Sharp Rebuke by Pope Francis" appears very slanted in that, while it correctly points out how rare it is for a Presidential Candidate to criticize a Pope, it gives precious little regard to how rare it is for a Pope to insert himself directly into national campaigns for political office in America. This seems especially egregious in that the Times amply covered the effort of another leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, to insert himself in such manner.
In recent decades much of the suspicion and enmity between Catholics and Protestants in America has substantially abated. The current action by the Pope will, unfortunately, rekindle those flames in some quarters. Sadly, I can easily imagine John Kennedy rolling over in his grave.
4
Donald Trump’s politically incorrect campaign has been unbelievably successful. His most recent jab at Pope Francis recalls an earlier time which the opening of the Vatican Archives now reveals how the dictator Benito Mussolini played a cat and mouse game with Pope Pious XI and mostly got what he needed which diminished Pope Pious’ reputation despite his attempts to expose the megalomania of Mussolini.
Today, Pope Francis’ overarching message to be compassionate to everyone is in direct conflict with Donald Trumps’ outburst about winners and losers. Trump is only a candidate now. We should be concerned about the possibility of allowing this bit of history of the build up to World War II, to repeat itself in any way.
Today, Pope Francis’ overarching message to be compassionate to everyone is in direct conflict with Donald Trumps’ outburst about winners and losers. Trump is only a candidate now. We should be concerned about the possibility of allowing this bit of history of the build up to World War II, to repeat itself in any way.
1
I disagree that Trump because is drawing in disaffected Republicans, that means he's a populist. It does not. He's a billionaire who uses the American version of the class system to get rich, uses the laws that favor the rich to stay rich, then cynically uses buzzwords and hate to convince the people who left behind that he's in their court. That does not make him a populist. You just need to look at what he does, not what he says, to figure that out.
1
It boils down to this... Regardless of Left or Right. Do you care about those less fortunate than you? Those that have not had the chances you have had.. Those that are sick... Those that are scared for their families. Those that still bleed the same red blood as you, but by birth are not born in a specific country... Or class...
Do you care at all about those less fortunate? And are you willing to share the abundance we have been fortunate to experience.
All 4 of my grandparents were immigrants from Eastern Europe.
My maternal grandmother came alone at 14, her parents sent her here to be safer than they were.
My own father and his 4 brothers had to change their names to be given the same respect as the other college students... They were ridiculed by their college professors.
I am only an American because of those 4 brave desperate people.
I don't forget where we were and where we are now because of immigrants. We cannot be afraid, they are us and we are them.
Do you care at all about those less fortunate? And are you willing to share the abundance we have been fortunate to experience.
All 4 of my grandparents were immigrants from Eastern Europe.
My maternal grandmother came alone at 14, her parents sent her here to be safer than they were.
My own father and his 4 brothers had to change their names to be given the same respect as the other college students... They were ridiculed by their college professors.
I am only an American because of those 4 brave desperate people.
I don't forget where we were and where we are now because of immigrants. We cannot be afraid, they are us and we are them.
3
The problem with these endless articles about Trump is that no matter how insightful the writer is, s/he still gets sullied by the subject matter. Trump is an idiot; a crass, vulgar bore who couldn't get a job as a post if he hadn't been born wealthy. Trying to pretend there's something interesting about him, as opposed to something deeply disturbing about a society that pays him attention, taints everything that's written about him.
5
I would take the Pope as our President any day, and I am an atheist
6
Trump is clearly intoxicated by himself, or as he would probably say 'full of himself.
3
A thoughtful and engaging perspective - valid insight that is less about the men than about the shared concerns of many, many people.
2
This is a ridiculous analogy in this article, really. It is straining to somehow confuse the public into thinking there is some similarity between Trump and Francis when there is literally none. Trump pandering to the public fears for his own glory does not equate with Pope Francis' message to humanity to love one another. Much is wrong with the Catholic church and we all know what the problems are who pay attention. But the basic message of love for our fellow man is no comparison to Trump calling for more waterboarding and building a wall to keep desperate Mexican and South American children from finding safety.
36
Absolutely right, 100%. To compare the two, or mention the two in one sentence, completely misses the point that Francis is living a religious life. This is something that is generally not understood nor accepted in our culture, and so it makes sense that the author would simply disregard this defining aspect of Francis' life. A religious life is a life of humility, first and foremost. That doesn't preclude being active in the world, but the motivation for acting is totally different than acting for one's own selfish interests, for one's own personal glory. The two men really couldn't be more different or farther apart in who they are and what they stand for.
It says here that Pope Francis told the biblical story of Ninveh, a story that warns against "people intoxicated with themselves.” I've never before thought of The Donald as biblical.
5
But also, the entire Holy See, beginning with himself. "...First cast out the beam out of thine own eye..." (Matthew 7:3)
1
I wonder why the Pope doesn't open up the Vatican to some refugees? He seems to have no problem as long as they are somewhere else.
2
I envision South Carolina's Republican residents coming to their senses and -- voting for the Pope! Who better that the Pope can stand for the high-minded ideals that formerly characterized this party? Go Pope Francis!
5
Humanity has to see the light, wake up, and start to experience itself as a species living on the planet from which it emerged. The dawning of societal awareness in those mentalities that see only prey is the miracle everyone is waiting for. Life is not a zero sum game. Trampling one another to get money isn't necessary. It serves the interests of the kind of person who feels comfortable callously using others.
There is something about the global institutions with which white Europeans imbued the world. Racism, hierarchy, dominance. Now the rulers of the world are just used to running it and taking whatever they want. Unfortunately for them they can't keep running it because it's killing the planet and it's killing us. Down to the things we get to feel. More and more desperation. Less security and joy.
There is something about the global institutions with which white Europeans imbued the world. Racism, hierarchy, dominance. Now the rulers of the world are just used to running it and taking whatever they want. Unfortunately for them they can't keep running it because it's killing the planet and it's killing us. Down to the things we get to feel. More and more desperation. Less security and joy.
45
Well, Bill, since all the good things “white Europeans”, including their progeny, us, have done for the world aren’t to be considered in this equation – including new drugs that cure diseases old and new, a level of general prosperity never before known on Earth, and immense support for the poorer nations of Earth – then I guess we should just consider all those guys as well as ourselves simply obsolete. Incentives that spark all that innovation that has Africans living rather dying with AIDS, societies with little telecommunication infrastructure propelled into the 21st Century with cellphones, help surviving the effects of tsunamis, sufficient protective force to minimize predations from buccaneers, strong-men and rogue states that disproportionately affect the lives of those least capable of defending themselves … must be just as outdated.
By all means, let’s retreat into some Kumbaya world that relies on Mali to lead us.
By all means, let’s retreat into some Kumbaya world that relies on Mali to lead us.
8
Richard:
Humanity forgot how to inhabit the planet Earth. Ancestral humans knew. They were part of the ecology. Dominating nature is killing us. Urban people live in an imaginary electronic reality. Even the awareness of our nature as living things is disappearing.
Humanity forgot how to inhabit the planet Earth. Ancestral humans knew. They were part of the ecology. Dominating nature is killing us. Urban people live in an imaginary electronic reality. Even the awareness of our nature as living things is disappearing.
13
Bill:
There were maybe five "ancestral humans". How do you propose we support 7 billion of them, likely to be at least 10 billion by 2050?
We can be aware of our nature without wearing flowers in what remains of our hair.
But I always enjoyed British Columbia.
There were maybe five "ancestral humans". How do you propose we support 7 billion of them, likely to be at least 10 billion by 2050?
We can be aware of our nature without wearing flowers in what remains of our hair.
But I always enjoyed British Columbia.
11
The Pope is not a Populist. That describes a particular appeal to an audience, not just the audience.
Trump is a populist. The Pope is Catholic.
Trump is a populist. The Pope is Catholic.
30
@Mark: I think you may be confusing the terms "Populist" and "Nativist." I've always considered myself a Populist- a champion of the working class (i.e., the "little guy") who believes that the proles of all nations deserve the support and compassion of their fellow proles. I hum The Internationale while directing scorn at both Capitalism and Socialism.
7
Stu:
By all means hum the "Internationale" and direct scorn at Capitalism and Socialism. Certainly, the extreme socialism it celebrates has been SO successful over the past 97 years that it doesn’t EXIST any longer outside Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, Laos and a China that practices something a lot closer to fascism than Communism. In the meantime, that extreme socialism has provided mankind with nothing but an unrealized and unsustainable ideal, while the Capitalism and Socialism-lite that you scorn has given the world its longest and most intense period of generalized prosperity humans have ever known.
Do you scorn apple pie, too?
By all means hum the "Internationale" and direct scorn at Capitalism and Socialism. Certainly, the extreme socialism it celebrates has been SO successful over the past 97 years that it doesn’t EXIST any longer outside Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, Laos and a China that practices something a lot closer to fascism than Communism. In the meantime, that extreme socialism has provided mankind with nothing but an unrealized and unsustainable ideal, while the Capitalism and Socialism-lite that you scorn has given the world its longest and most intense period of generalized prosperity humans have ever known.
Do you scorn apple pie, too?
9
It's Saturday and Richard is off, must be. No one seems to be advocating extreme socialism…not even Bernie Sanders. We are experiencing a reaction to extreme capitalism. Many do not like it and are suffering from it. The pope is right about the deleterious effects of unbridled capitalism, ie greed and exploitation in its purest make up. A good dose of socialism is a good antidote for too much capitalism. A great big dollop of social justice is indeed called for.
4
Once again, the Times takes the low road in its political 'news' coverage? How depressing...
The 'news' media should really be held to account for its role in creating the 'rise of Trump.' And all for a few clicks on articles and/or some advertising buys, based on traffic or ratings?
The 'news' media should really be held to account for its role in creating the 'rise of Trump.' And all for a few clicks on articles and/or some advertising buys, based on traffic or ratings?
38
I am appalled that the NYT would even compare Donald Trump and the Pope.
3
No, Vox, "the Times (doesn't) take the low road in its political news coverage" of the Pope vs. Trump --- nor, by implication, the Pope vs. "global capitalist order".
In fact, Vox, the Times may well be the only news organization that takes, or at least hints, at a much more serious analysis of this conflict as pointing at a far bigger choice for our society and world than just the U.S. presidential election.
Please re-read their article more carefully, and think about it more globally.
As the New York Times' more serious analysis of the Pope's conflict with both Trump and this "global order" (of Empire) conveys, "Francis points to structural inequities deriving from the global capitalist order."
In fact, Vox, the Times may well be the only news organization that takes, or at least hints, at a much more serious analysis of this conflict as pointing at a far bigger choice for our society and world than just the U.S. presidential election.
Please re-read their article more carefully, and think about it more globally.
As the New York Times' more serious analysis of the Pope's conflict with both Trump and this "global order" (of Empire) conveys, "Francis points to structural inequities deriving from the global capitalist order."
1
The Pope has the right to do what he wants and when he wants. He has the right to say what he wants and when he wants. He has the right to offend or not. He has the right to explain the meaning of Christianity and what is Christian or un-Christian actions. The fact that he has raised the ire of so many people around the world, not just in the US, means he is succeeding in his work.
94
I'm a Democrat, but yes, Trump is a populist in insofar as he represents the vast disaffected GOP electorate who believe that they have been sold out by their party.
14
I'm a Democrat & Catholic. Trump is Reality TV and would do great harm to the US if he were president.
BUT, I wish Pope Francis would preach to the so-called oppressed, be they Mexican's, Latinos from failed states, Palestinians, and encourage them to find their backbones and rise up against their corrupt, evil governments and overthrow them like our ancestors did. But, instead he treats them as victims and chastises those nations who showed bravery and made their freedom and success. Others can do it to, but as long as they see themselves as powerless and victims, they won't. Distressing.
BUT, I wish Pope Francis would preach to the so-called oppressed, be they Mexican's, Latinos from failed states, Palestinians, and encourage them to find their backbones and rise up against their corrupt, evil governments and overthrow them like our ancestors did. But, instead he treats them as victims and chastises those nations who showed bravery and made their freedom and success. Others can do it to, but as long as they see themselves as powerless and victims, they won't. Distressing.
21
How do you know they have no backbone? They have it just by surviving. The pope reveals the truth, highlighting it to be viewed more clearly. That's can't hurt, but make the perpetrators face their wrong doing and encourage the downtrodden to see their own exploitation more clearly. Knowing what is happening to them, is often the key to their release.
5
Don't half of the republican electorate, those supporting Trump and Cruz, feel powerless and victims?
1
It might be a good idea if you read the texts of his talks/sermons. He does challenge the "oppressed" to change the world around them and not succumb to the forces pushing them down and/or out, not to give in to the malaise that affects them and their society.
1
Religion by definition concerns itself with our conditions of living so politics must always be among its first concerns. In his public persona as the buffoonish loudmouth, a stock character from the commedia dell'arte repertoire, Donald Trump has sought to exploit the worst tendencies in the American psyche: xenophobia, misogynistic belligerence, authoritarian dominance, excessive greed and narcissism, callous indifference, jingoism, rage, and many other psychological traits that would quickly earn him a clinical diagnosis in any contemporary mental health setting. The fact that the oligarchy and its media have enabled this grandiose acting out on a world stage by cloaking him in a veil of political legitimacy speaks to a corrosive psychopathy at the core of our national life. Unfortunately the writer of this article has tried to create an impression of equivalence between the unhinged tycoon and the Pope. These figures don't bear comparison in historical or rhetorical terms. Pope Francis has injected vitality into a religious discourse made irrelevant by decades of conservativism. He's stripped away decades of dross and pared Christianity down to its most integral meaning: If we wish to call ourselves followers of Christ we build bridges not walls. We extend our hands and hearts to the marginalized.
As Donald Trump plays a maniacal game of Monopoly with a hotel on Boardwalk and a hotel on Park Place, Pope Francis walks among the impoverished saying, 'Come in, come in.'
As Donald Trump plays a maniacal game of Monopoly with a hotel on Boardwalk and a hotel on Park Place, Pope Francis walks among the impoverished saying, 'Come in, come in.'
59
Wonderful, and wonderfully written. Thank you.
1
My first reaction was that this article is insulting to the Pope by comparing him with The Donald. But since Francis started snooping around across the Rio Grande and somehow implied that The Donald was not a Christian everything is fair game. The two should meet and have a two hour debate and see who is the winner. Again, I'm very disappointed in what the Pope did and Donald, well he is The Donald.
12
Are they really that different when it comes to handling the interest of the organizations they each lead ?
2
You really do need to review the entire question by the journalist and answer given by the Pope. But in any case, the Pope has a right, and the experience and the knowledge to determine what are Christian actions or not. And he has the right to scold anybody. He also has the right to visit any nation he wants.
And just like Pope John Paul II stuck it to the Communists in the 1980's, something I recall the US was immensely happy with, Pope Francis has the right to stick it to the Donald if he ain't happy with the verbal garbage coming out of the Donald's mouth. I really do believe the US is greater than the Donald and would thrive on constructive criticism.
And just like Pope John Paul II stuck it to the Communists in the 1980's, something I recall the US was immensely happy with, Pope Francis has the right to stick it to the Donald if he ain't happy with the verbal garbage coming out of the Donald's mouth. I really do believe the US is greater than the Donald and would thrive on constructive criticism.
The Pope didn't do anythimg. Read the interview. It is short. Stop assuming that what you hear on tv is the whole story. If you were to read the entire story, you would not be disappointed in the Pope. Most likely you would be disappointed in your watered down biased news source , and yourself - for not being independent enough to do your own research.
1
It is essential we build and maintain a wall of separation between state and religion. Walls are important, sometimes more important than bridges.
35
Rob we tore down the wall in 1954 when we put under God in the pledge of allegiance. Tomorrow we bury a politician who pretended to be a jurist. Scalia put God in our laws. Tomorrow we decide whether Rubio or Cruz will be the Republican nominee and whose version of God will rule over us.
The USA had a wall and chose to tear it down. Here in Quebec Church and State were one and we chose to build a wall.
The founder's choice to separate church and state was not to protect religion. It was response to the English Civil War and Cromwell's Hell on Earth Theocracy. America was not the first time the British King had been overthrown and a Republic had been declared.
I don't know if that wall can ever be replaced and if America can be reborn in the light of the enlightenment.
The USA had a wall and chose to tear it down. Here in Quebec Church and State were one and we chose to build a wall.
The founder's choice to separate church and state was not to protect religion. It was response to the English Civil War and Cromwell's Hell on Earth Theocracy. America was not the first time the British King had been overthrown and a Republic had been declared.
I don't know if that wall can ever be replaced and if America can be reborn in the light of the enlightenment.
2
From my observations of US politics over many years, there is no separation of church and state when it comes to elections. All candidates are all too willing to put forward their Christian credentials. Observe the Trump and Cruz slanging match over their Christian values from the previous fortnight.
Having put forward your Christian credentials, I believe it's open season for others more qualified in such matters to express an opinion. But rather than shoot from the hip as Mr Trump is prone to do all to often he could have replied that he will take the Holy Father's advice and try harder to uphold the values and qualities of being a true Christian rather than calling the Pope's comments 'disgraceful'.
Having put forward your Christian credentials, I believe it's open season for others more qualified in such matters to express an opinion. But rather than shoot from the hip as Mr Trump is prone to do all to often he could have replied that he will take the Holy Father's advice and try harder to uphold the values and qualities of being a true Christian rather than calling the Pope's comments 'disgraceful'.
1
Messiah:
There's plenty of hypocrisy in our politics as well. Black congregations routinely use their church pulpits to campaign for democrats. They organize caravans to drive them from their churches to the poll booths. I've yet to hear a democratic partisan target black churches and claim they should be stripped of their tax exemption. They'd never say about black Christians the vicious things they say about republican Christians.
You are right. Even Ddemocrats suddenly become religious during campaign season; although not all throw their pastors under the bus as Obama did Reverent Wright. If a republican did that he would be mocked for not being a "real" Christian.
The media's silliness is on display in this case, not Trump's. He was respectful and chose not to be baited by media. What Trump actually said was that the pope's words weren't as bad as the media was making them out to be and that he didn't want to get into an argument with the pope.
There's plenty of hypocrisy in our politics as well. Black congregations routinely use their church pulpits to campaign for democrats. They organize caravans to drive them from their churches to the poll booths. I've yet to hear a democratic partisan target black churches and claim they should be stripped of their tax exemption. They'd never say about black Christians the vicious things they say about republican Christians.
You are right. Even Ddemocrats suddenly become religious during campaign season; although not all throw their pastors under the bus as Obama did Reverent Wright. If a republican did that he would be mocked for not being a "real" Christian.
The media's silliness is on display in this case, not Trump's. He was respectful and chose not to be baited by media. What Trump actually said was that the pope's words weren't as bad as the media was making them out to be and that he didn't want to get into an argument with the pope.
2
It has been many years since I first told the story of Jonah in the NYT comment section. It is a story we repeat in the afternoon of the Day of Atonement. It is my favourite Bible story and definitely belongs in this election year.
There is one glaring error in this essay and it really needs to be corrected.
Jonah told the King of Nineveh his Kingdom would be destroyed. There was to be no allowances for contrition, there was to be no change in God's judgement. Nineveh would be destroyed. There would be no do overs.
The King believed Jonah but instead of bemoaning his fate and waiting for the end to come the King decided to do what was correct. Nineveh decided its final days would be spent doing what was humane and moral.
Nineveh did not do what it did to escape the Divine Decree, Nineveh did what it did because it was the right thing to do. Nineveh did what it did not for pie in the sky, Nineveh was to be destroyed regardless.
To not understand the Pope's message is understandable in the Land of service for consideration. The obscenity of Citizens United, the divisiveness of Trump, Cruz and Rubio need more than condemnation they need a counter attack.
The USA must stop considering reward and punishment and start doing what is moral and just. That is the story of the Book of Jonah.
There is one glaring error in this essay and it really needs to be corrected.
Jonah told the King of Nineveh his Kingdom would be destroyed. There was to be no allowances for contrition, there was to be no change in God's judgement. Nineveh would be destroyed. There would be no do overs.
The King believed Jonah but instead of bemoaning his fate and waiting for the end to come the King decided to do what was correct. Nineveh decided its final days would be spent doing what was humane and moral.
Nineveh did not do what it did to escape the Divine Decree, Nineveh did what it did because it was the right thing to do. Nineveh did what it did not for pie in the sky, Nineveh was to be destroyed regardless.
To not understand the Pope's message is understandable in the Land of service for consideration. The obscenity of Citizens United, the divisiveness of Trump, Cruz and Rubio need more than condemnation they need a counter attack.
The USA must stop considering reward and punishment and start doing what is moral and just. That is the story of the Book of Jonah.
76
Montreal Moe:
eh? wicked!
By all means, let's conduct our governance by some Judeo-Christian biblically-inspired notion of what is "moral and just". After all, that would have to be better than beheading infidels, sexually enslaving girls and genitally mutilating women. Or some Kumbaya mushroom-induced expression of delirium tremens that suggested that incentives weren’t necessary to invent new drugs or build food distribution networks that supported billions of human beings. Let’s just let Bernie determine what is “moral and just”, counselled by our friends north of our border who are so polite they don’t lock their doors at night. But at least they speak pretty good English, even if they’re also required to speak some form of French.
Reward and punishment clearly are obsolete. People work hard, risk everything they have on an idea from which, when successful, all of humanity benefits – and when not successful beggars those who risked their capital and sweat … and this is obsolete because? Well, I guess it’s because interdimensional rifts will open up and goodies will come pouring out gratis, guided into the hands of the masses by the unchained, potted liberati.
Boy, that was fun at 1:34 AM when I can’t sleep.
eh? wicked!
By all means, let's conduct our governance by some Judeo-Christian biblically-inspired notion of what is "moral and just". After all, that would have to be better than beheading infidels, sexually enslaving girls and genitally mutilating women. Or some Kumbaya mushroom-induced expression of delirium tremens that suggested that incentives weren’t necessary to invent new drugs or build food distribution networks that supported billions of human beings. Let’s just let Bernie determine what is “moral and just”, counselled by our friends north of our border who are so polite they don’t lock their doors at night. But at least they speak pretty good English, even if they’re also required to speak some form of French.
Reward and punishment clearly are obsolete. People work hard, risk everything they have on an idea from which, when successful, all of humanity benefits – and when not successful beggars those who risked their capital and sweat … and this is obsolete because? Well, I guess it’s because interdimensional rifts will open up and goodies will come pouring out gratis, guided into the hands of the masses by the unchained, potted liberati.
Boy, that was fun at 1:34 AM when I can’t sleep.
7
I find that an open palm is better than a closed fist. Wonders can flow in and out of the open palm. A closed fist cannot give nor receive. Fear over loss of good by sharing freely is standard human fear. But the truth is that humanity has always done better by working together for a common goal. It doesn't mean there isn't individual rights and well being. It just means we all do better when we all do better.
2
Back to reality. Society does better when laws are maintained.
Americans want to know that the law still matters. Ignoring our immigration laws has had a deleterious effect on the "well being" of citizens (remember them?). When breaking the law becomes acceptable, they, understandably, start questioning the entire system.
Don't citizens have a right to that "well being" and happiness?
Americans want to know that the law still matters. Ignoring our immigration laws has had a deleterious effect on the "well being" of citizens (remember them?). When breaking the law becomes acceptable, they, understandably, start questioning the entire system.
Don't citizens have a right to that "well being" and happiness?
3
The contortions used to make a fatuous comparison on any level between Pope Frances and Donald Trump are an insult not only to the Pope, but to the reader.
Trump is a creature who has so little self-respect that he is willing to use racism, hatred of minorities and the lowest human instincts to build his political base. Here is a vicious mocker of the disabled who is cheered by the Ku Klux Klan, and the American Nazi Party as their chosen hero.
Donald Trump is able to convince many that he is a brilliant leader through tough-guy posturing. He is not new to the method. Both Mussolini and Hitler used similar projections of being strongmen that could restore greatness to a nation portrayed as weak and failing.
Trump honed his skills on Reality TV shows. Populism doesn't really enter into the absurd link artificially constructed as the excuse for this "news analysis".
Trump is a creature who has so little self-respect that he is willing to use racism, hatred of minorities and the lowest human instincts to build his political base. Here is a vicious mocker of the disabled who is cheered by the Ku Klux Klan, and the American Nazi Party as their chosen hero.
Donald Trump is able to convince many that he is a brilliant leader through tough-guy posturing. He is not new to the method. Both Mussolini and Hitler used similar projections of being strongmen that could restore greatness to a nation portrayed as weak and failing.
Trump honed his skills on Reality TV shows. Populism doesn't really enter into the absurd link artificially constructed as the excuse for this "news analysis".
75
Trump admires Putin, a communist dictator, perhaps because Putin has an entire country on the verge of bankruptcy, rather than just a few casinos.
Or maybe, Trump admires Putin the way any malevolent narcissist admires any other malevolent narcissist weilding greater power & influence to their own exclusive benefit.
Vote NO, on Trump-tatership.
Or maybe, Trump admires Putin the way any malevolent narcissist admires any other malevolent narcissist weilding greater power & influence to their own exclusive benefit.
Vote NO, on Trump-tatership.
25
There has not been a Communist leader in Russia for 25 years (since 1991). Putin, whatever you may think of him, has been democratically elected and enjoys huge popularity in his country. I'm not a fan off either Putin or Trump but if this is your level of argumentation, it's not going far in convincing anybody.
4
Well written Mr.Yardley
3
The right talks about their love of the Deity above and in the next breath talk of carpet bombing because the man above is on our side. The right tells us that all of the decisions they would make will be after consulting with man above. In other words, they will rely on him for the time to start bombing. So is it any wonder the Pope got involved in this. Whatever happened to the separation of church and state. I guess that is only used when it benefits them. I hate to say it but this time Trump is right.
14
One world-no private ownership of property-a hive society- is this utopia or is it the prelude to the Matrix?
Differentiation, the evidence of evolution, and consciousness is the enemy of the ONE world. We will all speak one language, all dress the same, all think the same. No one will have more than the least-who will inherit the earth. A society of bees, a return to instinctive behavior, for in such a world thinking its unnecessary, one only needs to behave properly. Who called this the opiate of the masses-was it a capitalist?
Differentiation, the evidence of evolution, and consciousness is the enemy of the ONE world. We will all speak one language, all dress the same, all think the same. No one will have more than the least-who will inherit the earth. A society of bees, a return to instinctive behavior, for in such a world thinking its unnecessary, one only needs to behave properly. Who called this the opiate of the masses-was it a capitalist?
6
I was raised in a strict Catholic home and sent all 4 of my own children to Catholic schools, K-12. I was taught never to question a priest about his homily let alone alone doubt the motives of The Holy See. But...
Let's be honest here: the real issue is that drug lords have taken over Latin America's economy and the corrupt governments in that region can't and won't protect their citizens so they flee to the US illegally. Now those drugs are flowing in such volume across the border that heroin is cheaper than beer and heroin addiction has become an epidemic in rural America.
If the Vatican truly wanted to solve the problem, the Pope should have attacked the corrupt Mexican government, not Donald Trump. But that's not how the world south of the border works.
Congress needs to declare war on these foreign drug lords and destroy their poppy fields and base of operations, exactly as we should be destroying ISIS's oil refineries and other sources of income. Trump has the political will to do both, and I for one support him.
Let's be honest here: the real issue is that drug lords have taken over Latin America's economy and the corrupt governments in that region can't and won't protect their citizens so they flee to the US illegally. Now those drugs are flowing in such volume across the border that heroin is cheaper than beer and heroin addiction has become an epidemic in rural America.
If the Vatican truly wanted to solve the problem, the Pope should have attacked the corrupt Mexican government, not Donald Trump. But that's not how the world south of the border works.
Congress needs to declare war on these foreign drug lords and destroy their poppy fields and base of operations, exactly as we should be destroying ISIS's oil refineries and other sources of income. Trump has the political will to do both, and I for one support him.
17
"If the Vatican truly wanted to solve the problem, the Pope should have attacked the corrupt Mexican government"
He did, on every single day of his trip.
Only Trump got press in the US. But then, that is an issue of our press and The Donald.
He did, on every single day of his trip.
Only Trump got press in the US. But then, that is an issue of our press and The Donald.
44
Or, we could change our drug policies, decriminalizing drugs and thus taking the profit out of the trade. End of drug wars.
But lots of people are invested in the drug wars on this side of the border. Private prisons, tons of money for special police equipment, planes, etc. Does the U.S. really want this to stop?
And where are the drug profits going? Only to corrupt Mexicans? Or does some of that money end up on the hands of corrupt Americans? Don't count on the drug wars ending any time soon.
But lots of people are invested in the drug wars on this side of the border. Private prisons, tons of money for special police equipment, planes, etc. Does the U.S. really want this to stop?
And where are the drug profits going? Only to corrupt Mexicans? Or does some of that money end up on the hands of corrupt Americans? Don't count on the drug wars ending any time soon.
12
It takes two to tango. I see you make no mention of the overwhelming demand for drugs in our great nation. Perhaps if we invested our time energy and treasure in infrastructure and education which are the first things Republicans cut we could make progress and give our kids something much better than heroin etc.
1
Let's take the comparison a little further: how about Hitler and Mother Teresa. I'm serious. The Nazi's considered themselves to be Christians — in fact, the guardians of the "true" Christianity.
How does Trump's position on race and religion, on helping the poor and disenfranchised differ from Hitler's? In principle, not at all, though it might differ in some particulars. To Trump, the poor are losers to be spat upon and, more importantly, to be scapegoated for his own aggrandizement and political gain.
His palpable fear and rage are but echos of the great German master propagandist's projections upon his own audience. Study Trump's face, his eyes, and you will feel a chill in your spine.
Mother Teresa is political in all but the speechifying. Her very existence manifests the anti-Trump, who himself may well be the anti-Christ.
Concerning Pope Francis — who could possibly maintain that he should abjure commenting on politics? Who but a demagogue, that is.
How does Trump's position on race and religion, on helping the poor and disenfranchised differ from Hitler's? In principle, not at all, though it might differ in some particulars. To Trump, the poor are losers to be spat upon and, more importantly, to be scapegoated for his own aggrandizement and political gain.
His palpable fear and rage are but echos of the great German master propagandist's projections upon his own audience. Study Trump's face, his eyes, and you will feel a chill in your spine.
Mother Teresa is political in all but the speechifying. Her very existence manifests the anti-Trump, who himself may well be the anti-Christ.
Concerning Pope Francis — who could possibly maintain that he should abjure commenting on politics? Who but a demagogue, that is.
18
The attitudes about sex and women's role in society propagated by the Pope and Mother Teresa directly result in rape, sexual abuse, overpopulation, starvation, child labor, etc etc etc. They are regressive and ignorant beliefs that belong in the stone age.
14
Donald Trump the anti-Christ? Really?
4
Trump was the only Republican who has promised universal healthcare. And, advocating the govt to enforce existing immigration laws does not make some one the anti-christ. Besides,The US accepts nearly 100,000 refugees from around the world every year. And no other country accepts as many legal immigrants. Trump has never been against legal immigration. But the media spun his statement on some illegal immigrants committing crime to how he insulted all hispanics or mexicans.
2
Fundamentally flawed comparison. And disrespectful to the church (but this is the NYT).
Trump is not yet a leader of anything. He’s a candidate who has made a few statements that caught fire. The Pope has spent his life in service, and has recently come to lead the church, by request of its followers who are there by choice and whose history is centuries old.
Maybe symptomatic of the 24/7 news cycle. But disrespectful none-the-less.
Trump is not yet a leader of anything. He’s a candidate who has made a few statements that caught fire. The Pope has spent his life in service, and has recently come to lead the church, by request of its followers who are there by choice and whose history is centuries old.
Maybe symptomatic of the 24/7 news cycle. But disrespectful none-the-less.
26
The "Followers o the Church" had nothing to do with Francis' election. What planet are you living on? The Catholic Faithful gave nothing to do with their leadership or policies.
5
The leaders who elected Francis are followers, too. At least they are supposed to be. I am not saying it was a public election, sorry if not clear enough.
4
The servant of the servants of Christ.
How does the media arrive at the conclusion that Trump is a populist?? There is no mention of democracy, or "we" in his speeches! It's all about "I am the best," "I know the best, " "everyone else is stupid." FYI, this is called "despotism." The media needs to get their ignorance under control, and start acting like the protector of democracy that they were envisioned to be.
77
The media were never "envisioned" to be protectors of democracy. They are generally profit-making enterprises. That said, a populist is a politician who claims to represent the vast majority of people. In Trump's case, although I can't stand the guy, he definitely has caught the zeitgeist of the majority of GOP voters disaffected with the party establishment.
6
Walls.
The pope talking walls.
His is a huge, huge wall.
Although, he, in his emmence compassion, offers a narrow gate.
Believe in Jesus, in resurrection, or, Burn in Hell.
It's all absurd.
From Trump to the pope.
The pope talking walls.
His is a huge, huge wall.
Although, he, in his emmence compassion, offers a narrow gate.
Believe in Jesus, in resurrection, or, Burn in Hell.
It's all absurd.
From Trump to the pope.
7
In 1535, when Jerusalem was part of the Ottoman Empire, Sultan Suleiman I ordered the ruined city walls of Jerusalem to be rebuilt. The work took some four years, between 1537 and 1541. The length of the walls today is 2.5 miles. The walls contain 34 watchtowers and seven main gates open for traffic, with two minor gates reopened by archaeologists. In 1981, the Jerusalem walls were added, along with the Old City of Jerusalem, to the UNESCO World Heritage Site List. Today the walls of Jerusalem, which were originally built to protect the city against intrusions, mainly serve as an attraction for tourists.
5
Today both of the divergent sides are playing it down as largely a media pot stirring episode which, looking at the facts, is for the most part true. In the end, Trump probably comes out ahead. A lot of Bible Belt folks who despise the Pope, but wouldn't have voted for Trump, may now swing in his favor.
5
Trump started the conversation about the Pope's visit to Mexico. No doubt part of the plan to energize non- Catholic evangelicals. Today he is asking for a boycott of Apple, though he uses an iphone. He's in this for himself, no one else.
Pope Francis is doing a great job as Christ's emissary on earth! Many so-called Christians in our country would howl down Jesus if He returned. They're showing their true colors.
26
Why would we "howl" down Christ just because an Argentinian doesn't like Donald Trump. Francis is not Jesus, by any stretch.
9
Professor - He’s the Pope, not "an Argentinian".
The poster did not say the Pope is Jesus, he said Christ's emissary on earth.
Gee, I thought it was part of the job description of a Pope to say what was Christian and what was not.
And what is Trump's idea of what makes a Christian? Cast him in a scene with Christ and the only role that comes to mind is that of a money-changer. Trump started this hypocrisy, pandering to the evangelicals and mis-quoting the Bible.
And what is Trump's idea of what makes a Christian? Cast him in a scene with Christ and the only role that comes to mind is that of a money-changer. Trump started this hypocrisy, pandering to the evangelicals and mis-quoting the Bible.
26
NO man is to judge another man. That is for Go alone to do. That is Biblical. he pope is a man and nothing more. He lives in Vatican that is in itself a separate country. It has its own economy, laws, courts, security force, mini-army. It also is the only country that is completely surrounded by a gated wall. So in pope's own words then he too must not be a Christian
9
It's not completely surrounded by a gated wall. Not even close. You don't even need ID to enter.
2
First, the Vatican is not surrounded by a wall and is open to the public. I have been there recently. Some of the walls were built 1200 years ago and some 500 years ago. Some of you folks have been listening to Fox and drinking their Kool-aid
1
Perhaps Pope Francis is just as concerned about the souls of the hard-hearted as he is about the economically, socially and politically disenfranchised. What value is it to gain the world and lose your soul? We all need mercy.
7
The Pope is only concerned with the flow of wealth out of the Latin countries of the Americas. He knows if we build a wall and keep the people of Mexico and other nations from entering our country illegally, the flow of money into those countries will be greatly curtailed. No money means no donations to his church. I haven't heard one thing about him visiting the poor suffering people of Syria recently, but they are not Catholics are they so they are not worthy of his time.
As for chastising Mr. Trump without ever having met the man or even talking to him, about building a wall, the Pope lives behind one of the biggest wall in the world, so he is a hypocrite. Judge not lest ye be judged.
As for chastising Mr. Trump without ever having met the man or even talking to him, about building a wall, the Pope lives behind one of the biggest wall in the world, so he is a hypocrite. Judge not lest ye be judged.
1
Comparing the charlatan con man to the Pope is a disgrace. Calling trump a populist is a bad joke. He is a bigoted racist narcissist.
102
I am not a Trump supporter but to call him a bigot is just plane unfair. Just because he wants us to sort out our immigration policy? Francis on the other hand runs an organization that is openly anti women...Give me a break! He really overstepped but he won't care because the the Vatican is so very anti American it is ridiculous!
2
Why is he a bigot or a racist? When has he ever spoke ill of a particular race or creed, or denomination of people? He never said said anything bad about all Mexicans or all hispanics. He said that there are criminals coming across our border from Mexico, which is true. He said some of those illegal immigrants are rapists, murderers, and drug smugglers, but some are good people. That doesn't sound bigoted to me. He called for a temporary ban on all Muslims entering our country, but he never said anything disparaging about them. As long as there is a danger of muslim terrorists sneaking into our country, it only makes sense to block entry to all of them to safeguard our citizenry.
Mr. Trump did not call for deporting all immigrants in our country, only those here illegally and even then, he said they would be free to come back in if they do so legally. The wall he wants to build would have as he described it, a large door to allow immigrants into the country. How is this racist or bigoted? Trump has worked with people all across the globe and he has hired many foreign workers. The Pope was wrong to judge the man without even meeting him or talking to him. He based his harsh judgement on secondhand information and that is disgusting.
Mr. Trump did not call for deporting all immigrants in our country, only those here illegally and even then, he said they would be free to come back in if they do so legally. The wall he wants to build would have as he described it, a large door to allow immigrants into the country. How is this racist or bigoted? Trump has worked with people all across the globe and he has hired many foreign workers. The Pope was wrong to judge the man without even meeting him or talking to him. He based his harsh judgement on secondhand information and that is disgusting.
2
The Catholic Church won't approve of contraception even in the face of an extraordinary risk like the Zika virus. How is that Christian? As repellant as the Donald Trumps of this world are, Pope Francis should look hard at how he harms the flow and life of people.
5
Not to mention the firm stand about condom use in Africa, where AIDs have killed hundreds of thousands of people, including infants.
2
Pope Francis does more human good in one week than Donald Trump has done in a lifetime. Which will be remembered as a kind person?
12
You are kidding right? The Catholic Church is completely out of touch in there positions on birth control and gay rights. How can you support them, this group of white guys, with their various positions on women. Priest can't marry and women can't be priest! Really??
2
As a Catholic I see the pope is a socialist. Fine; then the church should take all of the massive gold out of the European and Latin American churches and feed the poor and educate and house them in those countries where the need is the greatest.
13
Am a Catholic and find your comment a fine synopsis of the pope's drift into politics. Where is his emphasis on man's soul which today is suffering from spiritual anorexia in this secular age ?
3
That gold does not belong to the Vatican. It belongs to the individual dioceses and churches. The Vatican has absolutely no legal authority over it.
The epitome of false equivalence. Placing two persons together as equals in any fashion say more about the person who placed them than either of the two.
This comparison is a trivial distraction that misleads and confuses.
This comparison is a trivial distraction that misleads and confuses.
9
trump sued bill maher for mahers bit joking that trump was fathered by an orangutan
will he sue th pope for asserting trump is not a christian ?
will he sue th pope for asserting trump is not a christian ?
3
Creating this equivalency, even in just a headline, is disgraceful.
73
I look for a good metaphor: A comment by Pope Francis became a salvo to the massive Ego....that led to obvious reaction by Trump...a media challenge to a "wrestling match". The scene is the sewer that is the sphere most comfortable for the Media King. Trump is 100'% Shrinkproof. He won't even get dirty. The Pope will be the one most sullied. My hope is that Pope Francis will do what is his best honest character....stop now and ignore any further ranting by the vacuous Mouth
6
Truly, I cannot think of a more wrong-headed article than one that compares how Donald Trump with Pope Francis channel and express the anxieties and challenges facing the American people.
Must have seemed a bright idea at the time to the editor. Not such a bright idea in its execution.
Must have seemed a bright idea at the time to the editor. Not such a bright idea in its execution.
13
The Pope was making a political statement- about our common humanity and not about clubhouse politics- humans Aristotle told us are animals who live together in the polis- and Christian humans, I believe the Pope was saying believe in building bridges and not walls in that city of God. Mr. Trump clearly understands little about what constitutes "true religion"- Francis of Rome does.
10
The Pope is courageous to remind us of the danger and ugliness of succumbing to the demons of fear and anger, which can easily lead to scapegoating. Pope Francis loves humanity and shows empathy for others. Is Mr. Trump capable of acknowledging his own faults and demons, instead of blaming "the other"?
According to the Mayo Clinic, narcissism is a mental disorder in which people have: (1) an inflated sense of their own importance, (2) a deep need for admiration, and (3) a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism. Does this sound like an ideal President of the United States?
According to the Mayo Clinic, narcissism is a mental disorder in which people have: (1) an inflated sense of their own importance, (2) a deep need for admiration, and (3) a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism. Does this sound like an ideal President of the United States?
12
If the pope is concerned about poor Mexicans let him invite them to live in Vatican City.
13
Henry VIII has just tweeted in his support for Trump as regards this matter.
6
Pope Francis.........Please tear down that Vatican Wall!............
8
I've read comments about the Vatican's wall in recent days. first, it's a wall that's centuries old. As such, it has historical value, as do Hadrian's Wall and the Great Wall of China. More importantly, that wall keeps no one in and no one out. All one has to do is simply walk in or walk out of Vatican City.
1
There's actually no wall around the Vatican. Do some basic research. You can wander into St. Peter's Square anytime & even visit the Vatican Museum.
1
I must be losing my mind, but for the second time in the past week (the first being the last debate when he called out the Republican narrative of 9/11 and the Iraq war), I find myself siding with Donald Trump. Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Despite what the Vatican would like us to believe, Pope Francis is a man like any other, and so has sinned. Thus, he above all others should set the example of Jesus’s teaching by refraining from attacking someone else’s Christianity. The Catholic Church has a 2-millennia history of global bloodshed, brutality, rapacity, and sexual abuse, and it could be debated how truly Christian the Church is itself. Let Pope Francis get his own extended house in order before he criticizes others.
37
Call it Jesuitical, but Pope Francis did not say that Trump was not a Christian. He offered a teaching that "a man who builds walls and not bridges is not a Christian." It was Trump himself who said that the shoe fits.
1
James P Farrell:
The pope's mistake was to wade into American politics. He didn't realize that words are twisted and used to stoke partisan fights.
He also failed to recognize the media's obsession with Trump. Media members are like drug addicts waiting for their next Trump "fix."
The pope's mistake was to wade into American politics. He didn't realize that words are twisted and used to stoke partisan fights.
He also failed to recognize the media's obsession with Trump. Media members are like drug addicts waiting for their next Trump "fix."
2
The Pope was asked a question and he responded in quite general terms, never using the name Trump. Stating that a person who builds walls rather than bridges, and a person who "says such things" is not Christian, does not amount to casting stones. Since you refer to one of Jesus' statements, I will refer you to another, in which he said it would be as likely for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, as for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Hardly casting stones, and very similar to what the Pope said. All of human history is full of the bloodshed and abuse you mention. Does that mean we should not try to address it? The US is the only nation to have used nuclear weapons, and we did so against civilian populations. Does that mean we should not exhort others to avoid such things while changing our own behaviors? I hope not.
1
Enough........the Pope is not a populist. He is the ruler of a theocracy. He doesn't have to worry about health care for all or tax revenue or a defense department! I'm a Catholic but setting this up as a debate between two political leaders is ridiculous. The Pope doesn't get to insert himself into our elections. Enough all ready!
7
Too bad the Pope only called out one candidate.
Seems quite a few of the Pious hypocrites need to be called out onto the mat about serving either Mammon or the sick, the poor, the immigrant and the needy.
I'm sure they will wave him off as being from some cult, just as I do them.
Seems quite a few of the Pious hypocrites need to be called out onto the mat about serving either Mammon or the sick, the poor, the immigrant and the needy.
I'm sure they will wave him off as being from some cult, just as I do them.
4
I actually think this is a good column - it clearly points out the difference between the Pope and the bully.
The author is comparing them, not equating one to the other.
The author is comparing them, not equating one to the other.
3
So which is which?
2
Yes, the article is a study in contrasts, not a comparison.
apples and oranges - often compared. never does it mean they are the same.
2
When a pope speaks out about human rights violations in Africa or criticizes China America applauds. But god forbid he point out a domestic human rights violation in the making.
8
The Pope is not a politician and is not acting politically. He is one of the few moral leaders of the world. His job is to point the way to righteous behavior, to tell the stories of the Bible which show people the path to take and the path to avoid. That was his message to Donald Trump - a Christian builds bridges, not walls. Yes, he was taking Trump to task, but that is the job of a moral leader.
10
Francis is a golden cow, he responded to a question and has become a virtual dairy for narrative which will only serve the few practicing Catholics who think Francis was the best candidate for the job but would yield to Trump in putting the American economy back upright.
2
the best candidate for the job?
not even wrong.
not even wrong.
I just don't see any comparisons between these two men, and trying to construct a serious article that does so strikes me as actually a disservice. Pope Francis' focus was not on Trump; he was speaking of what it means to be a Christian, and he spoke in terms of walls versus bridges -- a meaningful and helpful metaphor of how to commit ones life. Trump and his acolytes have, as usual, responded viciously and inappropriately, attempting to make points on whatever hypocritical grounds they can. I heard today a semi-joke: Trump wonders why it took Jesus three days to rise from the dead: "Low energy, low energy. I would have done it in three hours." The sad thing is, it's believable that he would say it -- and it still wouldn't hurt him in the polls. What a season of folly we are in.
14
The book, "Hitler's Pope" made the argument that Pious XII was, in the long run, a coward and in collusion with Hitler by not confronting him early - fearful of hitler's revenge against German Catholics. Francis, I think, remembers this and, along with the shame of clerical child abusers, wants to change the church to fight against both evils, sick priests and rising fascist demigods.
4
Pope Francis challenges everyone to be responsible for our planet and other people; Donald Trump encourages his supporters to ascribe their woes to someone else. Their leadership styles could not be farther apart.
49
The pope of course excludes himself and the church. How many refugees has the Vatican City accepted?
How has Trump "disparaged" Muslims as Jim Yardley disingenuously writes? I don't particularly care for Trump, but Trump has rightly objected to allowing tens of thousands of misogynistic, homophobic and politically anti-Western Muslims migrate to the U.S. for purely economic reasons and when the U.S. isn't those Muslims' first choice of a destination. (They'd rather go to Germany or Sweden as the majority of them have openly stated.)
This Argentinian pope is unfortunately a left-wing activist instead of a true representative of the Holy See. Have there been right-wing popes throughout history? Of course, and they are correctly being shamed in history books. But in equating not permitting every economic migrant into the US with being evil is as disgraceful as it gets. Despite the Vatican's relative small size, surely there's room for around 5,000 Syrian refugees in St. Peters Basilica, St. Peter's Square, the papal apartments and the Sistine Chapel if the pope is so concerned.
This Argentinian pope is unfortunately a left-wing activist instead of a true representative of the Holy See. Have there been right-wing popes throughout history? Of course, and they are correctly being shamed in history books. But in equating not permitting every economic migrant into the US with being evil is as disgraceful as it gets. Despite the Vatican's relative small size, surely there's room for around 5,000 Syrian refugees in St. Peters Basilica, St. Peter's Square, the papal apartments and the Sistine Chapel if the pope is so concerned.
11
Something from Wikipedia I thought you should read. Things don't always go as planned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan
As had been the case in Indochina during the Vietnam War[32] the US invasion has in fact been causal in a massive increase in opium production, the aforementioned eradication efforts being largely window dressing. A SIGAR report showed a threefold increase in area under cultivation between 2002 and 2014[33] An December 2014 UNAIDS study[34] showed an increase of 7% in one year alone
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan
As had been the case in Indochina during the Vietnam War[32] the US invasion has in fact been causal in a massive increase in opium production, the aforementioned eradication efforts being largely window dressing. A SIGAR report showed a threefold increase in area under cultivation between 2002 and 2014[33] An December 2014 UNAIDS study[34] showed an increase of 7% in one year alone
I think the leader of the largest and one of the oldest terrorist organizations in the history of man should keep his distance from American politics. We don't tell the Vatican how to elect a Pope.
8
Do we really need a pretentious seller of mystical thought at the top of a rigid catholic hierarchy casting judgments upon who is or is not "christian" based upon their stated views on American political issues? For that matter we don't need to hear about god and love from a guy who cruelly spreads anti-LGBT, anti- birth control and anti-abortion claptrap, with complete indifference to the suffering it causes--even if he does dress in expensive costumes that supposedly signify his holiness.
8
jrd - Who is the “we” you speaking for?
3
Gee, I was kind of down on the Pope until I read jrd's post. Francis is mostly right, when you think about it.
7
If there are any saints on this earth, they wouldn't be all about making political news much, would they?
Perhaps he who casts the first stone or tweet about building walls vs bridges shouldn't be the dude that lives in a walled and gated compound with guards.
Perhaps he who casts the first stone or tweet about building walls vs bridges shouldn't be the dude that lives in a walled and gated compound with guards.
6
That is one of the most ridiculous comments I've read in the NYT in a very long time.
1
People keep writing about a wall around the Vatican! There is no wall around the Vatican!!! You can wander in & out of St. Peter's Square anytime! You can visit the Vatican Museum. If you have a library card, you can visit the Vatican Library. Do some basic research before you post falsehoods. Just because someone told there's a wall around the Vatican doesn't mean it's true.
Of course there are guards there. There are guards at the White House, in Congress & at all national monuments & airports. In Europe & South America there are guards at banks! What's your point?
Of course there are guards there. There are guards at the White House, in Congress & at all national monuments & airports. In Europe & South America there are guards at banks! What's your point?
I'll take the Pope's message any day over the Donald's.
One stands for selflessness, and the other . . . . Well, you guessed it.
One stands for selflessness, and the other . . . . Well, you guessed it.
6
Whether a religion fosters social justice, is the primary justification for any religion in the 21st century. Catholicism under Pope Francis does exactly that, as can be seen in the Pope's visit to Mexico. That Donald Trump is the antithesis of social justice and equal opportunity has been obvious for some time.
Wouldn't it be interesting if Donald Trump won the presidency and then fired the American people because we didn't live up his expectations as apprentices? How would his supporters feel then? Like losers?
Wouldn't it be interesting if Donald Trump won the presidency and then fired the American people because we didn't live up his expectations as apprentices? How would his supporters feel then? Like losers?
26
Really?? Francis and Trump? Headline? Stop Already.
10
The Holy Father speaks from a position of love and acceptance, while Trump speaks from his usual position of fear and revulsion. But eventually, both mortal men will appear before the Pearly Gates. One of them will be immediately admitted. The other will be directed elsewhere.
"Hey", he will shout. "Don't you know who I am? Let me in now, or I will sue you so fast and so hard your head will spin!"
"I know who you are, Mr. Trump," will come the reply. "The down escalator is located over there. No deals, no bribes, no mercy, no cuts. Next!"
"Hey", he will shout. "Don't you know who I am? Let me in now, or I will sue you so fast and so hard your head will spin!"
"I know who you are, Mr. Trump," will come the reply. "The down escalator is located over there. No deals, no bribes, no mercy, no cuts. Next!"
5
As I sit at breakfast in my hotel in Cambodia, reading the day's news from the US, I cannot but be taken aback by the persistent fear mongering and race/ethnic baiting that is driving the Republican primary race, or how it is resonating with the party faithful. Having visited the killing fields of Cambodia, I now can see in an even more personal way the ultimate moral horror of dividing humanity the way Donald Trump and many of his primary opponents are now doing. The vitriolic unleashing of so much paranoia and hatred is nothing less than chilling.
18
As I sit at breakfast table in Miami, reading the day's news from the US, I cannot but be taken aback by the persistent fear mongering and race/ethnic baiting that is driving the Democratic primary race, or how it is resonating with the party faithful. Having visited the killing fields of Poland, I now can see in an even more personal way the ultimate moral horror of dividing humanity the way Hillary Clinton and many of her primary opponents are now doing. The vitriolic unleashing of so much paranoia and hatred is nothing less than chilling.
6
Sure. Genocide is almost exactly the same thing as stopping illegal immigration.
9
Bob, as much as I despise most of the republican candidates - including trump - the hyperbole you are expressing regarding genocide and mass murder are not helpful to civil discussion.
2
While I'm no fan of Trump, I find it irritating to see the Pope meddle into US politics in a not-so-subtle way. For the righteous Francis to stand up for the principles, he can start with child abuse in the Catholic Church which I'm STILL waiting to see anything meaningful to happen.
20
Vatican seeks to clarify pope's comment that riled Trump …
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pope-franciss-comment-about-walls-not-target...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pope-franciss-comment-about-walls-not-target...
Can you say "back-peddle?" I think that Francis realized that he goofed on this one. He just shot the one candidate that might back-up Vatican policies in the US in the foot. Oops. Hillary is clearly not going to support anti-abortion policies.
5
It's funny that you think Trump cares about abortion.
Great to see an article that goes deeper than the surface of a topic even in limited space. It is hard to imagine two kinds of leader more different than Trump and Pope Francis. When Francis responded to a reporter's question as to whether on immigration the Pope is being used as a pawn, the Pope's answer was remarkably non-Trump: "Perhaps I am (but)...I'll leave that to you to decide." In this presidential race, Trump has a definitive answer to every question, one that may be transformed into another definitive answer to the same question within 24 hours.
31
The faux humility of his holy pawnship jetting merrily above the poor ignorant masses dispensing homilies and moralizing about who or what is christian in this and possibly the next worlds. Trump and this pope are made for each other.
Francis asks, “Who am I to judge?” concerning mortal sins which he regards as virtually harmless, or venial. But open borders is the pope’s sacred dogma and the heretic who “sins” against the dogma, such as Mr. Trump, is very sternly judged and excommunicated. This is liberal hypocrisy. The pontiff should be made to confront his grotesque double standard.
The pope is a foreign head of state interfering in the process whereby the American people choose their president. I don’t view Francis as a benign spiritual leader. He appears to me to be a faker who clothes his doctrinaire biases in progressive lingo.
The pope is a foreign head of state interfering in the process whereby the American people choose their president. I don’t view Francis as a benign spiritual leader. He appears to me to be a faker who clothes his doctrinaire biases in progressive lingo.
10
Uhhh...Mr. Trump is not a Catholic and therefore cannot be excommunicated.
2
Did you object when a certain foreign head of state was invited to speak in the Congress and to interfere in an earlier American election? Or do you consider Israel the 51st State?
2
Some desperately needed ammunition against Trump at the next primary debate, as they call him out for insulting a spiritual leader beloved by millions.
Doubtless Bush and Rubio, who are Catholic will relish hitting back at Donald.
Doubtless Bush and Rubio, who are Catholic will relish hitting back at Donald.
As a Catholic...
Trump's priorities, orientation, world-view, philosophy of life, statements and actions are a complete polar opposite to the Gospel traditon of Jesus.
I understand completely why people are expressing support for him, find him entertaining, or such - - but not many of his views are mature, adult views or based on any particular review of facts and policy.
Ultimately, we need to have the Republicans nominate John Kasich, who does have experience managing in the Federal and state government arenas.
Managing a private business, however wonderfully, is not Govt management. They are apples and oranges.
The Pope was right to ask his questions and make his statements in Trump's direction. Trump has been / is / will be, likely forever, far in his words, views and actions from those of Jesus. Saying that out loud is no afront, not even a rebuke - - it's just truth spoken.
Trump likes truth, he just doesn't want to deal with anyone else expressing their truths in his direction.
I will never vote for Hillary - - I wish Biden had run - - Jim Webb would have been good, but he never got traction - - John Kasich on the Repub side is a moderate and adult and not loonie-Left or reactionary-right guy - - or, even Bloomberg, over say Hillary-Trump-Cruz-Rubio. And Sanders is a person of great integrity and far desirable to Hillary, but his views will prevent him from actually governing. I am just ashamed of the Democrats for rigging this election for Hillary...
Trump's priorities, orientation, world-view, philosophy of life, statements and actions are a complete polar opposite to the Gospel traditon of Jesus.
I understand completely why people are expressing support for him, find him entertaining, or such - - but not many of his views are mature, adult views or based on any particular review of facts and policy.
Ultimately, we need to have the Republicans nominate John Kasich, who does have experience managing in the Federal and state government arenas.
Managing a private business, however wonderfully, is not Govt management. They are apples and oranges.
The Pope was right to ask his questions and make his statements in Trump's direction. Trump has been / is / will be, likely forever, far in his words, views and actions from those of Jesus. Saying that out loud is no afront, not even a rebuke - - it's just truth spoken.
Trump likes truth, he just doesn't want to deal with anyone else expressing their truths in his direction.
I will never vote for Hillary - - I wish Biden had run - - Jim Webb would have been good, but he never got traction - - John Kasich on the Repub side is a moderate and adult and not loonie-Left or reactionary-right guy - - or, even Bloomberg, over say Hillary-Trump-Cruz-Rubio. And Sanders is a person of great integrity and far desirable to Hillary, but his views will prevent him from actually governing. I am just ashamed of the Democrats for rigging this election for Hillary...
5
"In his final Mass celebrated along the Mexican border, Francis told the biblical story of the city of Nineveh, which was “self-destructing as a result of oppression and dishonor, violence and injustice.” God sent a messenger, Jonah, to warn people and the local king that they must change how they treat one another or the city would be destroyed. The king listened, and Ninevah was saved."
This is good preaching. Nineveh (by repenting) gave God a reason to express His mercy. People, cities and nations around the world need to do the same today.
First (and foremost) people need to be born again. (In order to be a Christian one must be born again.)
1. Our first birth is that which is of our mother's womb (our birth of the flesh)
2. Our second birth is that which is from Above (Born of the Spirit of God - - The Holy Spirit)
Please see John Chapter 3 (in the Holy Bible). Also, please see Romans Chapter 10 and I Corinthians Chapter 15.
There is no other way to become a Christian (please see John Chapter 14).
God's mercy is readily available. Let us seek it. (Please read the book of Jonah.)
This is good preaching. Nineveh (by repenting) gave God a reason to express His mercy. People, cities and nations around the world need to do the same today.
First (and foremost) people need to be born again. (In order to be a Christian one must be born again.)
1. Our first birth is that which is of our mother's womb (our birth of the flesh)
2. Our second birth is that which is from Above (Born of the Spirit of God - - The Holy Spirit)
Please see John Chapter 3 (in the Holy Bible). Also, please see Romans Chapter 10 and I Corinthians Chapter 15.
There is no other way to become a Christian (please see John Chapter 14).
God's mercy is readily available. Let us seek it. (Please read the book of Jonah.)
1
As Thomas Aquinas said the Kingdom of God is spread upon the earth but man does not see it. This pope sees it, lives it and shows us Chist unadorned all over again just like we need right now.
5
Conservative Catholic leaders in the US have already chosen to dismiss the Pope's comment on the environment, capitalism, and other key US political issues. They have chosen to prioritize GOP beliefs over the beliefs of their own religious leader. They aren't going to use the smokescreen he provided to change. They have dismissed him as a false pope, a deluded pope, or stated that he should not be involved in US politics.
I don't think these Catholic leaders will stop backing Trump after the dust up. And most of their flocks certainly won't - stay out of US politics, Pope, is enough reason for them to dismiss the head of their church.
I don't think these Catholic leaders will stop backing Trump after the dust up. And most of their flocks certainly won't - stay out of US politics, Pope, is enough reason for them to dismiss the head of their church.
4
The pope did not say that Trump is not a Christian. He said that building a wall was not a Christian thing to do.
16
maybe tomorrow morning he will personally supervise the brick by brick removal of the walls he lives within. somehow I doubt it.
4
Well, Billy, That Vatican Wall keeps no one in and no one out. All you have to do is simply walk in or walk out of Vatican City. Perhaps your hatred of all things Catholic has distorted your logic.
1
@Patrick: then why is the Vatican BEHIND a huge brick wall?
The idea that pope should not make any political comment is nonsensical.
Pope is the head of the church. But also head of a state.
As long as he does not decree(as the popes past indeed used to) who is legitimate head of state or not of another state, or who the people should vote or not, he, like any other person or head of state has a voice to say what he thinks, in his capacity as a citizen of the world or as a head of state.
If TRUMP can proudly accept Putin's positive views of him and bow his head to putin, he might as well recognize not every other head of state has similar opinion of him.
POPE is not alone in sharing this negative view: British parliament debated barring him and in the end just noted what a nasty creature he is and left it at that. Scots, SCOTS! -- his ancenstral homeland, does not want him setting foot there -- even if he were bring jobs -- they would rather die hungry than own him as one of their own.
Pope is the head of the church. But also head of a state.
As long as he does not decree(as the popes past indeed used to) who is legitimate head of state or not of another state, or who the people should vote or not, he, like any other person or head of state has a voice to say what he thinks, in his capacity as a citizen of the world or as a head of state.
If TRUMP can proudly accept Putin's positive views of him and bow his head to putin, he might as well recognize not every other head of state has similar opinion of him.
POPE is not alone in sharing this negative view: British parliament debated barring him and in the end just noted what a nasty creature he is and left it at that. Scots, SCOTS! -- his ancenstral homeland, does not want him setting foot there -- even if he were bring jobs -- they would rather die hungry than own him as one of their own.
5
In essence, messages of grand delusion and empty promises - from both directions!
2
It's wonderful for America that you NYT election news-and-opinion folks keep blaring PR for the name and antics of Trump.
Over the last 200 days of the campaign, it's now 211 blarings of "Trump" in headlines at your website's top.
What's so good about it is that you keep enraging your readers, who keep responding with Comments full of serious analysis and info on America's issues and priorities, and Bernie's focus on them.
That's agonna help us American voters vote wisely. Indeed, in Dem. primaries, it already has.
Over the last 200 days of the campaign, it's now 211 blarings of "Trump" in headlines at your website's top.
What's so good about it is that you keep enraging your readers, who keep responding with Comments full of serious analysis and info on America's issues and priorities, and Bernie's focus on them.
That's agonna help us American voters vote wisely. Indeed, in Dem. primaries, it already has.
3
Hasn't "populist" become hackneyed? What does it mean again? That the views of average folks are supposed to count for something? Or just courting their prejudices opportunistically? In which case, lumping Trump and Francis together shows you've forgotten what the expression means. Time to dump it.
3
Does anyone remember, "I am not a crook"?
3
Trump is not a populist. He is a huckster. If you think he is a good businessman, please understand that if he had put the money his daddy gave him in the stock market and just left it there, he'd be much, much, MUCH richer than he is today, after all his "amazing" business deals. He is a loser, who tricks other losers into thinking he's not a loser. The king of the losers.
22
@J..Spot on. Trump inherited his father’s business 19974- he was immediately worth about $200M. If he had merely invested this wealth in an ordinary managed fund at around 5% he would be twice as rich as he is now (Forbes Magazine).
In 1980 he established The Trump Organization to oversee all of his inherited real estate operations. Ten years later In 1990, due to excessive leveraging, The Trump Organization was $5 billion in debt with $1 billion personally guaranteed by Trump himself.
A bailout pact agreed upon in August of that same year by some 70 banks, allowed Trump to defer on nearly $1 billion in debt, as well as to take out second and third mortgages on almost all of his properties.
He repeated near-bankruptcy three more time in the years following. But for the combined and massive effort of all the banks and multiple parties in that 1990 deal and subsequent failures, Trump’s business and Trump would have disappeared.
Want to trust him with the multi-trillion US economy?
In 1980 he established The Trump Organization to oversee all of his inherited real estate operations. Ten years later In 1990, due to excessive leveraging, The Trump Organization was $5 billion in debt with $1 billion personally guaranteed by Trump himself.
A bailout pact agreed upon in August of that same year by some 70 banks, allowed Trump to defer on nearly $1 billion in debt, as well as to take out second and third mortgages on almost all of his properties.
He repeated near-bankruptcy three more time in the years following. But for the combined and massive effort of all the banks and multiple parties in that 1990 deal and subsequent failures, Trump’s business and Trump would have disappeared.
Want to trust him with the multi-trillion US economy?
6
I do believe that the Pope should not be speaking about any political party or person running for office in this country. The Vatican has a wall going around it. He should welcome all illegals to stay with him if he is so humble.
8
Sorry to trouble you with facts and logistics, Greg, but the Vatican comprises a total of 110 acres. That's it. Where, exactly, do you propose that he put all these "illegals," as you call them?
As for the Pope's comment, he has as much right to answer a question truthfully in a public forum as do you or I. In addition, if he had answered that he thought Trump was a model Christian, 99% of the thinking, informed world would have known that he was lying through his teeth.
As for the Pope's comment, he has as much right to answer a question truthfully in a public forum as do you or I. In addition, if he had answered that he thought Trump was a model Christian, 99% of the thinking, informed world would have known that he was lying through his teeth.
5
Ceadan...you cite facts, but, some people don't like facts, especially when they hate something...like the Catholic Church.
This is perhaps the most specious comparison I've ever seen printed in this newspaper. Why not throw Hitler, Mussolini or the Ayatollah Khomeini into the mix as well? After all, they were "populist leaders" too.
2
It appears the Pope, beside forgetting the wall surrounding Vatican City to protect the Vatican from intruders, is also forgetting that he has absolutely NO business mixing in with USA politics. Unlike other countries, the USA is supposed to have clear separation between Church & State. And for this agreement, the Church (and all other religious institutions) enjoy a free ride because they pay absolutely nothing in taxes towards the country & communities that protect them and provide them with essential services. BACK OFF Papa.
11
Pope Francis is taking a humanitarian position a lot like the only Jew running for president and NONE of the Catholic candidates. So how is he being political?
3
Doesn't the Pope know that only Donald Trump can question other people's religiosity? He is lucky the Don doesn't excommunicate him!
4
This is yesterday's news and quite frankly I think it is in poor taste to refer to one man as Mr. Trump and the other Francis throughout the article. If you have some objection to printing Pope Francis then don't put a Mr. in front of Trump. The NYT is fast becoming some sensationalist rag.
13
@JMM,
I agree with you on general principles. It might be one thing for a fellow reader to do this. But this, from the NYT is simply inappropriate.
2-19-16@8:41 pm
I agree with you on general principles. It might be one thing for a fellow reader to do this. But this, from the NYT is simply inappropriate.
2-19-16@8:41 pm
2
Trump is claiming to be Christian. The last I heard, the Pope is also a Christian!
1
Love to see the pope open the Vatican to refugees. Why not help them there? Reason is disorder and risk. He can ask others to take it but not in his own capitalistic backyard. Just saying there is a price to pay for shirt off your back when it gets close and he does not have to pay a price.
10
I think he has to some extent.... and also asked each parish and religious house in Italy to host a refugee family. In addition, he has built showers and toilets for the homeless off St. Peter's Square and set up a rotating barber--grooming service for the homeless. He also supports food services.
4
@ john
The Church has a net worth in the trillions.
Perhaps they could use that wealth to support all of those millions of unplanned pregnancies in Africa and Latin America their anti birth control doctrines caused instead of setting up barber shops.
The Church has a net worth in the trillions.
Perhaps they could use that wealth to support all of those millions of unplanned pregnancies in Africa and Latin America their anti birth control doctrines caused instead of setting up barber shops.
2
Yes, I view the clash between Pope Francis and Donald Trump as a primal struggle between good and evil over which shall have ascendancy in today's individual and collective human soul. Will we heed the better angels of our nature or succumb to the banality of evil?
Woodway, WA
Woodway, WA
2
Let us not forget, Christians are followers of Jesus Christ and the Pope follows Jesus' teachings. Trump is the polar opposite of Jesus Christ. Pope Francis was just stating the obvious. Not rocket science.
8
Gl..The Pope is a Catholic,,,much different than a Christian.
Most that read this paper don't know a true Christian or they would not hate them so much.
Most that read this paper don't know a true Christian or they would not hate them so much.
3
If the Pope followed Jesus' teachings, he would divest the Church of all its trillions of dollars of real estate and art and give all the money to the poor, unless the Bible was wrong and Jesus lived in a palace.
6
Joe
It is hard to know a true christian. They are scarce.
It is hard to know a true christian. They are scarce.
2
The Lord Himself created us and our planet, and therefore what we do with ourselves and our world comes from Him. Capitalism and entrepreneurship have provided the means for billions of people to live well into adulthood and often far beyond that. Yet other billions are partially or completely cut off for one reason or another. So Francis and the Don are both right and both wrong.
1
The Pope is not being political and he is not sticking his nose in secular affairs. He is being a humanitarian. He is expressing his concern about forces in the world driving people apart. Those divisions breed contempt and suffering. This is also not a populist platform. Decency, compassion, and concern carry no political labels. They are what they are which is an expression of morality. His religion teaches that morality and his telling of these teachings are universal and acceptable in any setting, even at an atheist convention.
Donald Trump is not a populist. He is an ignorant hate filled bigot that masquerades as a populist. A populist has a constructive platform that is intended to improve conditions for the people, like universal healthcare. Trump has no such platform. He just repeats that America is a mess and he will "restore" it to some better state. The restoration will result from xenophobic acts of expulsion and application of force both here and abroad.
Anyone that claims the mantle of piety as a public figure should be open to evaluation by the authorities of the religion he claims to be pious about. Otherwise, he should keep his mouth shut about what he claims to believe and how intensely he believes it.
The Pope is trying to teach us something. Trump is incapable of learning these most important of lessons. Politics has nothing to do with it. Humanity has everything to do with it.
Donald Trump is not a populist. He is an ignorant hate filled bigot that masquerades as a populist. A populist has a constructive platform that is intended to improve conditions for the people, like universal healthcare. Trump has no such platform. He just repeats that America is a mess and he will "restore" it to some better state. The restoration will result from xenophobic acts of expulsion and application of force both here and abroad.
Anyone that claims the mantle of piety as a public figure should be open to evaluation by the authorities of the religion he claims to be pious about. Otherwise, he should keep his mouth shut about what he claims to believe and how intensely he believes it.
The Pope is trying to teach us something. Trump is incapable of learning these most important of lessons. Politics has nothing to do with it. Humanity has everything to do with it.
184
Liberals, they are a funny race. They slam the pope into irrelevancy if he steps on their sacred issues, like freedom to abort, use contraceptives, and enter same sex marriages. When the pope's position just happens to be a liberal one, the liberals get all respectful for this great humanist, etc. A twelve-year old could see through this doubled fallacy (1) appeal to authority (2) cherry picking), but somehow liberals have convinced themselves of their own Holiness.
As for me, I like to decide issues on the merits, and one issue for me here is whether church should interfere with state, and I come down "no".
As for me, I like to decide issues on the merits, and one issue for me here is whether church should interfere with state, and I come down "no".
6
A humanitarian stance is an inherently political stance. "The Pope is trying to teach us something." Did we ask for his council? Should we look to religious leaders the world over for advice on how to run a sovereign, secular nation?
5
Lindsey,
I'm trying to teach you something and no one asked me for my council. That's why I write these comments.
Rodger,
The Pope isn't interfering with the State. States affect the world. He lives in the same world as the rest of us. Human decency occurs in the world.
The objection liberals like myself have with the Church and abortion in no way diminish the validity of our support for his efforts at supporting human decency. Unlike many conservatives, we do not view the world as set of binary, yes no, all or nothing choices. That's an affliction that conservatives suffer from far too much from.
I'm trying to teach you something and no one asked me for my council. That's why I write these comments.
Rodger,
The Pope isn't interfering with the State. States affect the world. He lives in the same world as the rest of us. Human decency occurs in the world.
The objection liberals like myself have with the Church and abortion in no way diminish the validity of our support for his efforts at supporting human decency. Unlike many conservatives, we do not view the world as set of binary, yes no, all or nothing choices. That's an affliction that conservatives suffer from far too much from.
9
How difficult would it be to get the government to make a one-time exception to voter registration rules for an important person on the world stage? After all, Republicans routinely deny Democrats the right to vote and access to the polls.
1
Is its safe to assume that The Donald is having one of his people check "Two Corinthians" for an appropriate response to the Pope's admonishment? After all, he wouldn't want his fellow citizens to think that the Pontiff knows more about Christianity than HE does.
19
Pope Frances is much more than the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics -- that's what the other Popes were. This Pope speaks eloquently for a large number of non-Catholics, myself included. I love this Pope. I don't know what God is but if there is one this Pope's Got God.
Trump's heinous performance art just keeps getting more preposterous and offensive. He's insulting Pope Francis now?
Trump's heinous performance art just keeps getting more preposterous and offensive. He's insulting Pope Francis now?
228
It was the Pope who started it. I admire the Pope but you should put the blame where it belongs.
2
The press gives both of them too much attention and elevates them both way beyond their stations. They are both just men trying to sell their ideas.
2
Interesting view...
Wh did the pope single out Trump rather than the republican party?
18
Pope Francis did not single out Trump. This story is not up to NYT standards in failing to make clear that important point. Trump has seized the mantle of self-righteous victim to generate publicity in his usual manner of erasing truth, ethics, and decency. Comparing this slug with the immense goodness of Pope Francis is outrageous, and I'm an occasional Unitarian, not a Roman Catholic.
6
Why do almost all of the countries of Latin America, as highly various and diverse as they are, including the Pope's homeland, have such profound problems in establishing long term economically and political stable societies?
Is it because of "capitalism"? Do they lack natural resources? Why should they come in such large numbers to the United States?
Should a President of the United States follow a "Christian" foreign policy? How about a domestic social policy? Should Bernie Sanders be Christian in his immigration policy?
Is it because of "capitalism"? Do they lack natural resources? Why should they come in such large numbers to the United States?
Should a President of the United States follow a "Christian" foreign policy? How about a domestic social policy? Should Bernie Sanders be Christian in his immigration policy?
11
In the case of Latin America (and Africa), it is because the Catholic Church has spent hundreds of millions of dollars making sure desperately poor and uneducated women believe they will go to hell if they practice birth control, so as to keep the church pews filled.
The Church, while paying no taxes, supports illegal immigration so they can grow their flock while passing the cost of supporting of all those millions of unwanted children onto the US taxpayers, rather than spend their own trillions of dollars.
The Church, while paying no taxes, supports illegal immigration so they can grow their flock while passing the cost of supporting of all those millions of unwanted children onto the US taxpayers, rather than spend their own trillions of dollars.
5
Latin American elites, the majority of whom are the descendants of European imperialists rather than having indigenous ancestry, enjoy their feudal position of authority. They view the US as little more than a dumping ground for their countries' destitute. Our lax border control has allowed these kleptocratic elites to avoid implementing any type of social safety net for their people. Instead they rely on remittances from the US economy to keep the poor from rising up against them.
11
@FSM: you've got a point, at least as far as illegal immigration in the US (not Europe).
Unlike Europe, 99% of our illegal immigrants come from Mexico and Central America, hence they are Catholics. Enough illegals, and it will tip the balance of the religious in this country, from "born again' Evangelicals to Catholics ... the way it was in the 50s and before.
My guess is the Pope has his shiny hopes built on that. It looked like the US was a lost cause, with most American Catholics being "cafeteria Catholics" who divorce and use contraception -- NOW he can dream of a majority Catholic nation with great power, who would be subservient to himself and any future Popes.
Does he care about working class Americans who have lost their jobs to illegal aliens? Uh...no.
Unlike Europe, 99% of our illegal immigrants come from Mexico and Central America, hence they are Catholics. Enough illegals, and it will tip the balance of the religious in this country, from "born again' Evangelicals to Catholics ... the way it was in the 50s and before.
My guess is the Pope has his shiny hopes built on that. It looked like the US was a lost cause, with most American Catholics being "cafeteria Catholics" who divorce and use contraception -- NOW he can dream of a majority Catholic nation with great power, who would be subservient to himself and any future Popes.
Does he care about working class Americans who have lost their jobs to illegal aliens? Uh...no.
3
Incredible! What happened to separation of church and state! This Pope obviously has an agenda and it's part of the New World Order! To be honest, it has served to strengthen my support of Donald Trump, whom I believe is one of the last bastions of a free democratic society. Whether you agree with his political stance of not, you certainly can not agree that he embodies the principles set forward in the Bill of Rights.
12
@Westie: If you're writing from Italy in praise of The Donald it may be that your vision isn't what it used to be.
16
He misses Berlusconi and embracing the buffoon across the pond.
8
To compare Pope Francis with Trump on any level is absurd. The two men are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the good of humanity. NYT, please stop trying to join the disgraceful spectacle of the press salivating at anything this bigoted man says.
150
Trump is an ego maniac, and his great policy for the future is to cut taxes for the wealthy to 10%, and to allow Us corporations that have hidden trillions offshore to bring their capital back home without having to pay taxes on the non taxed income even though we have a $ 19 trillion dollar deficit. a company like Apple that is now disagreeing with the FBI would be able to bring home their $ 225 billion without paying any taxes. His policies will lead to an increase in the deficit of close to $ 3 trillion more. Trump's policies are for the benefit of the wealthy.
The pope has dedicated his life to respecting and honoring the poor with respect and love for all. His comments are from his inner self, and hardly makes comments unless they are necessary to be made. His observations that bridges should be built instead of walls is a great example of his message.
The choice is simple, you can believe in an ego maniac who wants to benefit the wealthy or another man who has dedicated his life to his faith and helping the poor through his belief and love for Jesus Christ.
The pope has dedicated his life to respecting and honoring the poor with respect and love for all. His comments are from his inner self, and hardly makes comments unless they are necessary to be made. His observations that bridges should be built instead of walls is a great example of his message.
The choice is simple, you can believe in an ego maniac who wants to benefit the wealthy or another man who has dedicated his life to his faith and helping the poor through his belief and love for Jesus Christ.
35
Now that Pope Francis has courageously told the Mexican government, upper classes, and Church leadership that they have been ignoring the poor, it would be a great time for those Mexicans, who are illegally in the U.S., to return to Mexico. They could use the experience they have gained from living here to organize themselves, and the rest their countrymen. The many American philanthropies which have been providing money to help organize illegal immigrants in this country could help fund their efforts.
They could make demands for a more open economy (with an end to monopolies), for education from qualified teachers, and for an end to bribery and government corruption.
Otherwise, Mexico may continue to offer less and less to its poor, and since the poor constitute the majority of Mexico’s population, more and more of them will try to come here.
They could make demands for a more open economy (with an end to monopolies), for education from qualified teachers, and for an end to bribery and government corruption.
Otherwise, Mexico may continue to offer less and less to its poor, and since the poor constitute the majority of Mexico’s population, more and more of them will try to come here.
10
Haven't you heard that more Mexicans are leaving the U.S. for Mexico these days than are going the other way? Most of those who are still crossing the border into this country are from Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador.
74
Neither Obama nor the Pope (infallibility notwithstanding) are perfect. However, the Pope is more a Christian than just about any of our American "Christians" on the right wing and folks like Falwell Jr. and Franklin Graham. It is interesting that many of them seem to be Rs and right wingers before they are true Christians. How on earth do these "Christians" rationalize their harsh, heartless policies? Have they even read the Gospels? Since many of them seem to want no separation of church and state, how do they reconcile their views with the loving, forgiving God of the Bible?
Despite the current "Benetton colors" of the R party, which most folks see is only skin deep, Mr. Trump is a logical consequence of decades of right wing race baiting, and worse. Many of these "Christians" have tried to delegitimize, diminish, dismiss and disrespect the Office and the person who was Twice lawfully elected President of our country. The latest being the "let the American People Decide" before a new SC Justice is nominated. As if a. Obama only gets 3/5 of a term, b. the votes of the millions who elected do not count, and c. Only the votes of those who might vote a R President in should count.
Christians, not!
Despite the current "Benetton colors" of the R party, which most folks see is only skin deep, Mr. Trump is a logical consequence of decades of right wing race baiting, and worse. Many of these "Christians" have tried to delegitimize, diminish, dismiss and disrespect the Office and the person who was Twice lawfully elected President of our country. The latest being the "let the American People Decide" before a new SC Justice is nominated. As if a. Obama only gets 3/5 of a term, b. the votes of the millions who elected do not count, and c. Only the votes of those who might vote a R President in should count.
Christians, not!
176
"No True Scotsman". Anyone professing to be a Christian is a Christian. Unless you can veer into the dark depths of a person's superego, you probably don't have the authority to claim people are or aren't adherents of a particular religion.
4
You do not bother to mention this but the Pope is also more Christian than Mr. Obama whose drones have killed thousands of people and more Christian than Mrs. Clinton who supports abortion and wants a "no fly zone" over Syria.
Nothing wrong with criticizing Falwell. But when you leave out the Democrats you reveal your partisanship.
Nothing wrong with criticizing Falwell. But when you leave out the Democrats you reveal your partisanship.
Nothing about one's religion compels you to support (or not support) any particular President.
1
"In the cage fight of American politics, the matchup is irresistible."
Matchup? Cage fight? This is an absurd comparison. One is the leader of a multi-national religious organization, the other is running for the Republican nomination for President. Trump is pandering to voters who pine for the return of George Wallace, many of whom are Anti-Catholic to begin with.
To say that Pope Francis represents some sort of populist movement out political expediency is false and disgusting. I say this a non-practicing Episcopal.
Matchup? Cage fight? This is an absurd comparison. One is the leader of a multi-national religious organization, the other is running for the Republican nomination for President. Trump is pandering to voters who pine for the return of George Wallace, many of whom are Anti-Catholic to begin with.
To say that Pope Francis represents some sort of populist movement out political expediency is false and disgusting. I say this a non-practicing Episcopal.
88
Dear All Media - Please stop equating a billionaire with a big, foul mouth who can buy his way into the public discourse with public servants, religious leaders and others who have spent lifetimes working for goals other than their own self-aggrandizement. It gives Donald Trump a false sense of gravitas which he does not deserve and diminishes and demeans the efforts of those who actually work to make our world a better place.
247
Male leaders of fundamentalist religions, of which Catholicism is only one, do not 'work to make our world a better place', but actively work against it by denying women, 50% of the population, the right to use contraception.
The reason they do so is to fill their churches, mosques, and synagogues, and, of course, their coffers, not out of any concern for the human race.
Give me a self-aggrandizing billionaire any day. At least they do not pretend to be in it for anyone but themselves.
The reason they do so is to fill their churches, mosques, and synagogues, and, of course, their coffers, not out of any concern for the human race.
Give me a self-aggrandizing billionaire any day. At least they do not pretend to be in it for anyone but themselves.
1
The Donald certainly has a point - the Pope ought to keep his long nose out of nations' political affairs, the way Pius XII is reputed to have done when Adolph was der Fuhrer. How much cleaner things could be, no?
29
I am glad you said "is reputed" because that leaves the door open to actual historical facts.
I wonder how many people are familiar with "Mit Brenender Sorge" Pius XI insightful encyclical to the German people which clearly challenged Nazism very strongly but in a theological and pastoral way. Pius XII had the same sentiments and thoughts but was dealing with a very different political reality than Pius XI.
I wonder how many people are familiar with "Mit Brenender Sorge" Pius XI insightful encyclical to the German people which clearly challenged Nazism very strongly but in a theological and pastoral way. Pius XII had the same sentiments and thoughts but was dealing with a very different political reality than Pius XI.
1
A true populist is someone who is concerned with the needs of ordinary people. Now, who is the true populist. A man who is concerned (well, not really, unless you consider is yuge ego) about a narrow group of angry, uninformed, mostly white men who have been jilted by the 'job creators' in the wealthiest country on earth or a man of the cloth who speaks for perhaps billions of people of all ages, races and religions who want to be given access to basics these disaffected white men take for granted (food, clothing, energy, and housing
24
On turning away from the establishment norms the writer is correct in describing both men. The establishment has little toleration for those that do not tow their line. Makes for quite interesting politics and a surprised establishment
4
You do a disservice to the Pope by suggesting that he has anything at all in common with Trump. Trump is a windbag opportunist who has spent his life enriching himself, often at the expense of others. Now, solely to serve his own vanity, he is campaigning on a platform whose only "planks"seem to be: (1) he'll insult anyone who gets in his way so he looks "strong", (2) he'll say whatever comes to mind, regardless of any contrary facts and whether it contradicts what he said last year, and (3) and he makes lots of vague promises that appeal to low information voters and refuses to explain how he can possibly keep those promises. The Pope in contrast is a priest who actually has read what Christ said and, for the most part, tries to live his life according to those teachings. For the Catholic Church and many other non-Catholic "Christians" that is a truly radical idea. It requires that you reject the trappings of wealth and excessive consumption, focus on the plight of the poor, and reject violence and war as viable solutions to the many problems facing us today. Christ did not turn his back on "sinners." He embraced them and used his own example to try and change their ways. It is remarkable to hear the "conservative Christians" in the US and elsewhere, who embraced every political interference by Pope Benedict and his bishops, now insist that a real Christian Pope must stay silent.
215
The conservatives don't think Francis should stay silent. They think he is wrong.
4
They also embraced the interference of Bibi.
2
Both the Pope and Trump recognize there is anger out there.
The Pope (like Bernie Sanders) is trying to eliminate the causes of the anger by addressing "structural inequities deriving from the global capitalist order" as the article states.
Trump on the other hand like the conservative so called "Catholics" (how can a true Catholic show contempt for the head of the church and argue that Francis is a “political pope”?) exploit anger. Trump and the Pope's "Catholic" critics turn anger into fear to maintain their callus lifestyles.
Francis like Bernie is recognizing there is nothing practical about ignoring problems that cause anger. Exploiting anger by turning it into fear as 100% of the Republican candidates for president do, some not as deftly as Trump, is not a solution. It is Voodoo.
The Pope (like Bernie Sanders) is trying to eliminate the causes of the anger by addressing "structural inequities deriving from the global capitalist order" as the article states.
Trump on the other hand like the conservative so called "Catholics" (how can a true Catholic show contempt for the head of the church and argue that Francis is a “political pope”?) exploit anger. Trump and the Pope's "Catholic" critics turn anger into fear to maintain their callus lifestyles.
Francis like Bernie is recognizing there is nothing practical about ignoring problems that cause anger. Exploiting anger by turning it into fear as 100% of the Republican candidates for president do, some not as deftly as Trump, is not a solution. It is Voodoo.
2
Hhmm, love/compassion versus fear/hate.
Yeah, obviously, it's "political" because it's also human. Whether one succumbs to the lesser angels of our nature or the better angels has always been THE question.
Unfortunately, those of our forbears who were most ready to kill the threatening "other" were the ones who were also most likely to survive and to pass on their genes to us. And however much that mentality may now be more destructive (and I also mean SELF-destructive) than constructive, it doesn't matter because that would require us to think rather than emote and the Trumpistas prove that thinking, among so many of us, is just not in the cards.
Yeah, obviously, it's "political" because it's also human. Whether one succumbs to the lesser angels of our nature or the better angels has always been THE question.
Unfortunately, those of our forbears who were most ready to kill the threatening "other" were the ones who were also most likely to survive and to pass on their genes to us. And however much that mentality may now be more destructive (and I also mean SELF-destructive) than constructive, it doesn't matter because that would require us to think rather than emote and the Trumpistas prove that thinking, among so many of us, is just not in the cards.
23
The pervasive treatment of 'populism' as some kind of pathology is very telling. Populism is not a negative trend.
It's a breath of fresh air...
It's a breath of fresh air...
64
You're correct, which is why The Donald is no more a true populist than was Benito Mussolini. Populists stand up for "the people" (i.e, the proletariat) without consideration of their place of birth or residence.
10
The Catholic Church should register as a political action committee, as the Pope was not satisfied with lobbying Congress, which should never have been permitted.
5
I agree that populism is a breath of fresh air, but only with the caveat that no such thing is coming out of the mouth of Trump.
I had a doctor's appointment. Have I missed a new bullying insult that The (loud) Donald has bellowed against a religion, an ethnic group, a political belief, a gender or other decent Americans?
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I check Trump's Twitter feed now and then to see what he's saying. I was actually impressed that he's not trolling the Pope. Those are not words that one should say about a serious presidential candidate.
13
You didn't miss a thing. This is a non-issue that's sending the world media, even the Good Gray Times, into a feeding frenzy. It won't affect anything or change anyone's mind. Your doctor's appointment was important: This slanging back and forth between a clown and a priest is merely another three-day wonder. Be well, Mr. Steinberg.
14
The Donald is now calling for a boycott of all Apple products until they unlock the dead terrorists phone.
1