Without guns, these odd folks would just be strange.
With guns, they're small-time terrorists.
We need strong gun regulation!
With guns, they're small-time terrorists.
We need strong gun regulation!
9
when i go to malheur/diamond/burns this summer as i do every two years or so, i hope the drazies are long gone and remain away. i've already had to quit south arizona and west texas and now southeast oregan and northwest nevada, too! these pepople are the same people who stole land from the indians cause they could and justified it to themselves and God as righteous and His will. well that might not be exactly how God sees it cause the catlle on a thousand hills are the Lord's; everything is God and is God's.
3
Clive Bundy appeared in court yesterday on a number of serious federal charges (including assault on a federal officer - yikes!), and asked for a public defender. Words fail me. Guess the John Wayne act is over
11
"asked for pizza and marijuana, criticized a government that condoned abortion and drone strikes, and talked about U.F.O.s and dying rather than going to prison."
Clearly so many of these "movement" are mentally ill.
Clearly so many of these "movement" are mentally ill.
7
Well, David Fry presumably qualifies. The others clearly lack a certain self-awareness, but if we're honest we'd call that normal.
Flash: Cliven Bundy, ringleader and father of two of these terrorists, has pleaded poverty and requested that a judge appoint free legal defense counsel for him.
Such chutzpah should not go unrewarded. Get him Tsaernav's lawyers; they did a great job for him.
Such chutzpah should not go unrewarded. Get him Tsaernav's lawyers; they did a great job for him.
5
These are the right-wing wackos who listen to Rush Limbaugh and fox so-called news, carry guns around in public to make themselves seem bigger than they are and would be DT and TC brown-shirt and or SS-type henchmen if they were elected. Just plain stupid. Loud noise. BIG guns. Disaster for America.
8
david fry's "i'm gonna do donuts" rant really exposed the mentality of these "patriots". frightening and chilling considering these guys are armed with deadly weapons. they themselves make the best case for gun control. how can anyone of conscience allow people like that to own guns?
ps the best outcome of this mess is that old man bundy is in jail.
ps the best outcome of this mess is that old man bundy is in jail.
11
So they want the land the federal government owns so that what? So that they can then turn around and sell it to large corporations? Yes, we all know that would be in Americans best interest. Morons.
5
Oregon is a beautiful state and we welcome everyone. We only ask that if you would like to visit, please don't take over our wildlife preserves.
5
Oh, wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world,
That has such people in ’t!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world,
That has such people in ’t!
I am struck by the unbalanced praise given to Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore in this and another NY Times article today for her role in the Malheur refuge occupation (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/us/oregon-occupier-david-fry-talked-of....
Even though she apparently did help to negotiate a non-violent end to the occupation, when you stoke the fire, as she has for years now, encouraging and supporting the Bundys in their illegal activities against the federal government, you shouldn't get credit for helping put the fire out.
Even though she apparently did help to negotiate a non-violent end to the occupation, when you stoke the fire, as she has for years now, encouraging and supporting the Bundys in their illegal activities against the federal government, you shouldn't get credit for helping put the fire out.
14
Exactly.
I can't find the source now, but I recall reading that she actually visited the occupiers at the Refuge in January. (The closest I could find was a headline saying she was "returning" to Oregon, implying that she had been there before, but the article didn't say anything about her first visit.)
I can't find the source now, but I recall reading that she actually visited the occupiers at the Refuge in January. (The closest I could find was a headline saying she was "returning" to Oregon, implying that she had been there before, but the article didn't say anything about her first visit.)
3
The Oregonian reported that Roseburg, OR Republican representative Dallas Heard and 5 other out-of-state legislators, visited the Malheur Refuge occupiers in mid-Jan. against the wishes of local government officials. They also met with Harney County Judge Steven E. Grasty and the article says that "There was also a Las Vegas-area elected official who joined the conversation by phone, Grassy said," who may have been Ms. Fiore. The article goes on to say that during the meeting with the occupiers, "The protesters communicated their grievances – including their view that the federal government should hand over public land to Harney County loggers and ranchers – to the elected officials. "Many of them said the same things back to us. ... These are honorable elected officials," Finicum said."
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/orego...
NW News Network reported that 2 WA state house Republicans, Matt Shea and Graham Hunt as well as three Idaho lawmakers, Reps. Heather Scott, Judy Boyle and Sage Dixon, also participated in the visit with OR Rep. Heard.
http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/northwest-lawmakers-visit-malheur-refuge-f...
The fact that these state legislators voiced their agreement with the occupiers, including Mr. Finicum, certainly may have contributed to his actions and subsequent death. His blood is on their hands.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/orego...
NW News Network reported that 2 WA state house Republicans, Matt Shea and Graham Hunt as well as three Idaho lawmakers, Reps. Heather Scott, Judy Boyle and Sage Dixon, also participated in the visit with OR Rep. Heard.
http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/northwest-lawmakers-visit-malheur-refuge-f...
The fact that these state legislators voiced their agreement with the occupiers, including Mr. Finicum, certainly may have contributed to his actions and subsequent death. His blood is on their hands.
9
Kudos to the FBI for outfoxing these nutjobs by letting Gavin Seim and Michele Fiore help talk them down off the ledge. If only their work was done.
In 2014, Gavin Seim (R) ran for Congress in my district. Less than one third of voters turned out in the primary; less than half in the general, where a tea partier was in the running. Seim's straight-faced reporting is that the last four people at Malheur were "camping" and the FBI was acting illegally -- he actually thinks he is competent to hold federal public office. Michele Fiore (R) sits in the Nevada state legislature and is running for Congress as a "proven conservative choice." Check out her last Christmas card.
Do you think the Bundys are terrorists out there on the lunatic fringe? Great. What are you going to do about it? These people want to "take back America" just like all those Republicans running for public office. If you don't vote, you might as well be voting for them.
In 2014, Gavin Seim (R) ran for Congress in my district. Less than one third of voters turned out in the primary; less than half in the general, where a tea partier was in the running. Seim's straight-faced reporting is that the last four people at Malheur were "camping" and the FBI was acting illegally -- he actually thinks he is competent to hold federal public office. Michele Fiore (R) sits in the Nevada state legislature and is running for Congress as a "proven conservative choice." Check out her last Christmas card.
Do you think the Bundys are terrorists out there on the lunatic fringe? Great. What are you going to do about it? These people want to "take back America" just like all those Republicans running for public office. If you don't vote, you might as well be voting for them.
8
“Now we go from the refuge to our next battleground, which is the court system and legislation"
Great! That's all anybody ever wanted. Why didn't they start there in the first place, instead of this pea-brained 'occupation'? Nobody's claiming that the federal government has gotten it completely right in terms of land ownership and stewardship, we just don't want to see a bunch of gun-toting crazies threatening people and claiming that they should be able to screw the taxpayers by not paying for grazing rights!
Great! That's all anybody ever wanted. Why didn't they start there in the first place, instead of this pea-brained 'occupation'? Nobody's claiming that the federal government has gotten it completely right in terms of land ownership and stewardship, we just don't want to see a bunch of gun-toting crazies threatening people and claiming that they should be able to screw the taxpayers by not paying for grazing rights!
8
These terrorists invaded my state to grab and hold an extremely important piece of our natural lands. They want to eliminate the refuge. Yet millions of birds move through this refuge on their way up and down the coast. Many of these birds end up in states like Nevada, California, and Arizona. Some migrate across the Mexican border and are subject to international treaties protecting their flyway.
Quite a few of these birds provide sport for hunters, and are an important part of the ecosystem that provide habitat for fish and game. In addition to birdwatchers, most hunters or fishermen should be alarmed that this group seeks to remove important state and federal lands to hand over to private landowners. This would dramatically reduce habitat and threaten our sports. And existing private landowners who have invested in access to wild areas stand to lose if conservation of our natural resources by governments is abandoned.
If Teddy Roosevelt could come back from the grave, he would charge right into this group of land grabbing terrorists and eliminate the threat to our natural resources. As an Oregonian, I am proud that my state and local law enforcement agencies to end this illegal armed takeover. And I am happy that an important portion of my state remains under government control so that our natural resources are protected for our children and grandchildren.
Quite a few of these birds provide sport for hunters, and are an important part of the ecosystem that provide habitat for fish and game. In addition to birdwatchers, most hunters or fishermen should be alarmed that this group seeks to remove important state and federal lands to hand over to private landowners. This would dramatically reduce habitat and threaten our sports. And existing private landowners who have invested in access to wild areas stand to lose if conservation of our natural resources by governments is abandoned.
If Teddy Roosevelt could come back from the grave, he would charge right into this group of land grabbing terrorists and eliminate the threat to our natural resources. As an Oregonian, I am proud that my state and local law enforcement agencies to end this illegal armed takeover. And I am happy that an important portion of my state remains under government control so that our natural resources are protected for our children and grandchildren.
12
FBI Official bulletin;
At approximately 9:40 a.m. (Pacific) on Thursday, February 11, 2016, the FBI brought three of the remaining Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupiers into custody without incident. At approximately 11:00 a.m., agents brought the fourth into custody without incident.
Sean Larry Anderson, age 47, of Riggins, Idaho
Sandra Lynn Anderson, age 48, of Riggins, Idaho
Jeff Wayne Banta, age 46, of Yerington, Nevada
David Lee Fry, age 27, of Blanchester, Ohio
Why is it that wackos like this always have three names? Is it so they can remember who they are? Or confuse the cops?
At approximately 9:40 a.m. (Pacific) on Thursday, February 11, 2016, the FBI brought three of the remaining Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupiers into custody without incident. At approximately 11:00 a.m., agents brought the fourth into custody without incident.
Sean Larry Anderson, age 47, of Riggins, Idaho
Sandra Lynn Anderson, age 48, of Riggins, Idaho
Jeff Wayne Banta, age 46, of Yerington, Nevada
David Lee Fry, age 27, of Blanchester, Ohio
Why is it that wackos like this always have three names? Is it so they can remember who they are? Or confuse the cops?
3
Too little notice has been given to the religious fundamentalism of these domestic terrorists. In numerous instances - and reported in non-mainstream media - the central followers of the Bundys have cited how they were directed by the direct words of God transmitted to them. Further rationalization for their self-defined American jihad is supplied by obscure chapters of the Book of Mormon.
Beyond the hypocrisy of the Bundy's state-supported welfare through the use of public lands, their reliance on inner direction from the spoken words of God points to warped, selfish and ego-driven psyches. VanillaISIS indeed!
Beyond the hypocrisy of the Bundy's state-supported welfare through the use of public lands, their reliance on inner direction from the spoken words of God points to warped, selfish and ego-driven psyches. VanillaISIS indeed!
7
"[Frye], in turn, asked for pizza and marijuana, criticized a government that condoned abortion and drone strikes, and talked about U.F.O.s and dying rather than going to prison."
Pizza, alright. But, pot? I really hope no one gave them anything that might make them more paranoid.
Pizza, alright. But, pot? I really hope no one gave them anything that might make them more paranoid.
2
The patient strategy of the FBI and local law enforcement was correct and avoided possibly replicating the catastrophes at Waco and Ruby Ridge. It's to be applauded.
The gun-toting crazies led by the Bundy family are now in jail and will be prosecuted as the criminals they are.
To take up guns against our government for the boneheaded idea that federally-managed land (which belongs to all Americans) should be allowed to be exploited by a private citizen or given over to private citizens for their personal profit is terrorism, pure and simple -- and despite all the talk by the Bundy group about patriotism, is fundamentally counter to everything our country was founded on and stands for.
The gun-toting crazies led by the Bundy family are now in jail and will be prosecuted as the criminals they are.
To take up guns against our government for the boneheaded idea that federally-managed land (which belongs to all Americans) should be allowed to be exploited by a private citizen or given over to private citizens for their personal profit is terrorism, pure and simple -- and despite all the talk by the Bundy group about patriotism, is fundamentally counter to everything our country was founded on and stands for.
6
I was born on a small Arizona ranch 83 years ago. I've lived in California, Washington, and Montana. The west is a beautiful land of mountains, rivers, lakes, and prairies. Much of it is still wild and open. In Montana we had occasional grizzly bears in our yard, moose, deer, elk, otter, beaver, wolves, and lions. Montana also had 6 million cattle and less than a million people and the people and the ranchers loved their wilderness. There are movements to turn over all government lands to state control. There is a developer in Scottsdale AZ who wants to build a resort and a housing development on the rim, and a tramway to the bottom of the Grand Canyon.
Abraham Lincoln set aside what is now Yosemite to protect it for all of us to enjoy. The great western National Parks, Yellowstone, Glacier, Grand Tetons, Bryce, Zion, Olympic, North Cascades, Mount Rainier to name a few, all these sites and others allow us to see our heritage, to stand in wonder of nature and Americas past. Our government does a first rate job preserving history. The alternative would be scary; clear cut forests, overgrazed land, high rise resorts, wild places turned into amusement parks, trams into all the canyons, camping places in the woods and lakes turned into commercial operations, all to make a buck. Wild places let all living things live including us. Leave things be. In wildness is the preservation of the world.
Abraham Lincoln set aside what is now Yosemite to protect it for all of us to enjoy. The great western National Parks, Yellowstone, Glacier, Grand Tetons, Bryce, Zion, Olympic, North Cascades, Mount Rainier to name a few, all these sites and others allow us to see our heritage, to stand in wonder of nature and Americas past. Our government does a first rate job preserving history. The alternative would be scary; clear cut forests, overgrazed land, high rise resorts, wild places turned into amusement parks, trams into all the canyons, camping places in the woods and lakes turned into commercial operations, all to make a buck. Wild places let all living things live including us. Leave things be. In wildness is the preservation of the world.
13
Looks like the movement is made up mostly of dumb nut cases who feel empowered by a gun in their hands. They get manipulated by a few rich greedy guys who want something for nothing.
What these people did was a terroristic act and they are getting off easy by not being charged as such.
What these people did was a terroristic act and they are getting off easy by not being charged as such.
6
This article and the commentators have no idea what this entire issues is about. Fundamentally it is about overreach of federal law and regulation and extreme criminalization of same.
Yes, we need government, but when government makes laws and regulations with extreme criminalizations that do not match the crime, people lose their freedom.
There is no worse propagator of criminal regulations that the EPA and that is what this is all about.
Yes, we need government, but when government makes laws and regulations with extreme criminalizations that do not match the crime, people lose their freedom.
There is no worse propagator of criminal regulations that the EPA and that is what this is all about.
Ummmm ... this is a public lands issue. The EPA has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Talk about "commentators [who] have no idea what this entire issues is about" ...
Talk about "commentators [who] have no idea what this entire issues is about" ...
9
Jurgen,
That's not what this article is about. It's about a few self-declared patriots who thought they were entitled to treat public land belonging to all Americans as if it were their private property. When a couple of welfare ranchers egregiously flouted laws intended to protect the value of our land, they were arrested by sworn law enforcement officers, and found guilty by a jury of their peers. They received draconian jail terms as required by mandatory-minimum-sentencing laws. The mandatory-minimum laws were duly enacted by Congress in response to public fears about terrorism, with the support of members elected to represent those welfare ranchers and so-called patriots. Rather than peacefully seeking redress under the provisions of our Constitution, the self-described Constitutionalists went for their guns.
Where did you get the idea that the EPA had something to do with this?
That's not what this article is about. It's about a few self-declared patriots who thought they were entitled to treat public land belonging to all Americans as if it were their private property. When a couple of welfare ranchers egregiously flouted laws intended to protect the value of our land, they were arrested by sworn law enforcement officers, and found guilty by a jury of their peers. They received draconian jail terms as required by mandatory-minimum-sentencing laws. The mandatory-minimum laws were duly enacted by Congress in response to public fears about terrorism, with the support of members elected to represent those welfare ranchers and so-called patriots. Rather than peacefully seeking redress under the provisions of our Constitution, the self-described Constitutionalists went for their guns.
Where did you get the idea that the EPA had something to do with this?
7
In Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in southeastern Oregon occupation by private owners & US Govt. One important is side tracked is It is a Wildlife Refuge. It is meant to protect birds coming from north as migration from cold places, to lay eggs, to procreate bird population. These so called property owners while staking their rights forgot that they had duty to protect bird /nature also. they cannot burn hectares of wild land for their greedy $ earnings. Issue should be to protect wildlife refuge & constitutional blah blah.
2
Ideas like those of the occupiers and their supporters are the foundation for anarchy and the rule of warlords. Eventually, whoever could grab the most would be king. If we think about that, we would support a cooperative civil government. Our federal government is the closest we have to that right now. In comparison to anarchy, it is definitely benign.
5
Note to people with a passionate belief.
Think about all the alternative views.
Open a dialog with opposing opinions.
Try to convert people to your way of thinking.
Be willing to see the other side with new eyes.
Protest if you need to expose a serious violation of common good.
Try to organize your thinking in a logical way.
Lock your gun in a safe place away from the debate.
Think about all the alternative views.
Open a dialog with opposing opinions.
Try to convert people to your way of thinking.
Be willing to see the other side with new eyes.
Protest if you need to expose a serious violation of common good.
Try to organize your thinking in a logical way.
Lock your gun in a safe place away from the debate.
3
And the icing on the cake is that Cliven Bundy has asked the court to provide him with a public defender. I guess there are times when he likes big government. I hope he is forced by expense or ruling to turn over his cattle and other holdings. And I hope no money emerges from his dark money funders. This whole "privatize profits and socialize costs" philosophy of his and his supporters is harmful to our democracy. So glad that, if we have to continue hosting these moronic thugs in our state, it's behind bars and not at the MNWR.
1
Law enforcement is to be commended for how they handled this. Now if they would just apply the lessons learned to protests by black Americans, that would be great.
'All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances.'
Shakespeare; was he talking about a narcissist's need for notoriety? Or simply the varieties of life?
Me thinks these posers enjoyed the limelight, however brief.
Shakespeare; was he talking about a narcissist's need for notoriety? Or simply the varieties of life?
Me thinks these posers enjoyed the limelight, however brief.
1
Hypocrisy is a serious issue...how can you voice against abortion , and next threaten with suicide..I hope you see the hypocrisy...says enough about all this and it's authenticity and motive...
And thus it ends, not with a bang, but a last cookie and a cigarette. Sic Transit Gloria Gooberiatem.
But this is really great! These buffoons have done a superb job of discrediting themselves and their movement, making them look like the whining, whinging, delusional, deranged lunatics and the undereducated wannabee GI Joe losers they really are. The militia movement? A laughing stock for the nation to behold. The dregs of the dregs of society pretending to be revolutionaries, reveling in their ognorance.
These gomers are going away for quite some time. What's really going to be funny about all of this is that they're probably going to get billed for the damage they did to the property, rent for the time they spent there, and very likely all of the costs involved with this little fracas. So even when they get out of prison, they're still going to have to pay off a rather large bill for damages.
This worked out quite well - the Bundy clan in jail, the militia movement discredited and looking like whining children, and the bird sanctuary will be open and repaired in time for the birdwatchers to enjoy the northward migrations in the spring.
All the way around, a very satisfying end to this affair.
But this is really great! These buffoons have done a superb job of discrediting themselves and their movement, making them look like the whining, whinging, delusional, deranged lunatics and the undereducated wannabee GI Joe losers they really are. The militia movement? A laughing stock for the nation to behold. The dregs of the dregs of society pretending to be revolutionaries, reveling in their ognorance.
These gomers are going away for quite some time. What's really going to be funny about all of this is that they're probably going to get billed for the damage they did to the property, rent for the time they spent there, and very likely all of the costs involved with this little fracas. So even when they get out of prison, they're still going to have to pay off a rather large bill for damages.
This worked out quite well - the Bundy clan in jail, the militia movement discredited and looking like whining children, and the bird sanctuary will be open and repaired in time for the birdwatchers to enjoy the northward migrations in the spring.
All the way around, a very satisfying end to this affair.
2
What is it about these people that makes them think they are Constitutional scholars?
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ~~ Isaac Asimov, 1980
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ~~ Isaac Asimov, 1980
3
The reporting on this issue has ignored the religious overtones. The Bundy's are Mormon as were many of the occupiers, and feel that their interpretation of their religion allows them rights over land belonging to the US government. Using the Constitution is one way to obfuscate the religious issue. The takeover in Eastern Oregon can be seen as a form of religious terrorism. This is an important aspect of this particular event. Ignoring this aspect has to have been intentional; are we afraid to discuss armed Christians defying federal authority and terrorizing a community?
3
"Many supported their aims but not their methods," you say. But many more here in the West supported NEITHER their aims NOR their methods. Please don't mislead your readers into thinking that most westerners support grabbing our public lands for private use. We cherish the public lands that belong to all of us - in Nevada, those public lands are why many of us love our state - and we want to keep them public. We here in Nevada are also thankful that the Malheur standoff indirectly led to the arrest of scofflaw-rancher-in-chief Cliven Bundy - an embarrassment and a danger to our state.
8
These thugs have no ideals beyond not wanting to pay for the use of public lands. Period. And that is what the vast majority of westerners think too. Do not attempt to infer these freeloaders have any broad support or that the idea of public land is up for discussion in any larger sense.
2
Mr. Fry, my tax money supports the military that "protects" us. My local tax money pays for the police force that "protect" my family. I might have to use quotes, bc really the government is not protecting any of us at any level, but at least I realize that tax money pays for more important matters than abortion. In fact, I believe a very high % of our federal tax money goes towards four primary expenditures: medicare/medicaid, SSC, interest on debt, and the military. The military spending needs to focus some of their money on repairing their current war machines. From what I understand, repair yards are becoming junk yards.
I am ashamed for not joining the first revolution, but it wasn't time. I have too much to lose to join a pathetic revolution. Will the real Revolutionary leaders please stand up?
This revolution should be peaceful, FYI, to all you zealots out there. To the leaders capable of inspiring the amazing followers waiting for amazing leadership, know we are waiting for your leadership. We want the Constitutional Republic that has become a centralized state with massive regulation, where the free trade of ideas and solutions is squabbled over rather than executed. We're becoming a nation void of leadership, anxious to point the finger at the next scapegoat rather than looking in the mirror and improving ourselves.
I am ashamed for not joining the first revolution, but it wasn't time. I have too much to lose to join a pathetic revolution. Will the real Revolutionary leaders please stand up?
This revolution should be peaceful, FYI, to all you zealots out there. To the leaders capable of inspiring the amazing followers waiting for amazing leadership, know we are waiting for your leadership. We want the Constitutional Republic that has become a centralized state with massive regulation, where the free trade of ideas and solutions is squabbled over rather than executed. We're becoming a nation void of leadership, anxious to point the finger at the next scapegoat rather than looking in the mirror and improving ourselves.
These crazed strict interpreters of the Constitution should be overjoyed that their paranoia about the government taking over the country proved to be as mindless as their calls for revolution against the very government whom they refer to as fascists.
DD
Manhattan
DD
Manhattan
I've been an outdoor scientist in the West for over 30 years. Many of these ranchers in the states I've worked, often on federal contracts and permits (CA, AZ, NM, NV, CO) are convinced that they, not the American people, are the only ones that have rights to the land. Some have been on their private land for a few generations, some very recently, but most believe that the federal land that they lease for a pittance given the damage done by grazing and other activities is theirs. I've been shot at invoking my PTSD from Vietnam, found locked gates on federal land, and threatened by groups of crazies invoking god, guts, and guns - few of them when asked served their country as I have.
This coming election is one of the most important for the future of the country, perhaps ever. A Republican President (Exec. branch), Congress controlled by Republicans, and a Supreme Court that would likely become a 7-2 majority WILL make good on "transferring" public land to state (meaning private) hands. Vote Americans, and think about what you do and the future of our children and grandchildren.
This coming election is one of the most important for the future of the country, perhaps ever. A Republican President (Exec. branch), Congress controlled by Republicans, and a Supreme Court that would likely become a 7-2 majority WILL make good on "transferring" public land to state (meaning private) hands. Vote Americans, and think about what you do and the future of our children and grandchildren.
4
"I've peacefully voted and nothing is ever done."
Yes, the wheels of justice do turn slowly and it is hard to be patient, but you and your cohorts have finally been arrested for your crime against all of us. Now you get to use your made up legal arguments in your day in court and the wheels will turn. The fact that you can find grievance imagined victim hood supporters won't change that. We all vote too and expect the laws to be enforced equally.
Yes, the wheels of justice do turn slowly and it is hard to be patient, but you and your cohorts have finally been arrested for your crime against all of us. Now you get to use your made up legal arguments in your day in court and the wheels will turn. The fact that you can find grievance imagined victim hood supporters won't change that. We all vote too and expect the laws to be enforced equally.
2
Does it need to be said that you won't accomplish your goals by voting unless enough other voters share your goals?
1
Why do we with sympathize with mental illness? This stupid standoff is a symptom of right wing thinking and it was "fed by Big Ideas about the government" from the GOP. However, I seriously don't know how any of these ideas are big..
The comments by David Fry are an insult to every sane American citizen. There is a big difference between oppression and not wanting to pay bargain rate grazing fees. I hope that every one of these self proclaimed freedom lovers spend time in prison so they learn what oppression is firsthand.
12
Need an analogy for hypocrisy? You have it right here with these seditious people who wish to take my and your heritage away from us by use of force for their personal domain.
Bundy and his ilk feed at the trough of federal largesse and complain they want it all.
Astounding. These traitorous Americans should be put in prison where they belong. Mr. Fry says he's worried about being raped, sounds like Mr. Fry and his henchmen are very very shallow thinkers to put themselves into such a stupid place.
I find it very difficult to put into words my feelings about such misguided citizens of which there are many of different stripes, fearful of a government that protects them every minute.
Bundy and his ilk feed at the trough of federal largesse and complain they want it all.
Astounding. These traitorous Americans should be put in prison where they belong. Mr. Fry says he's worried about being raped, sounds like Mr. Fry and his henchmen are very very shallow thinkers to put themselves into such a stupid place.
I find it very difficult to put into words my feelings about such misguided citizens of which there are many of different stripes, fearful of a government that protects them every minute.
2
These people who took over Malheur, for all their religious blather and flag-waving bluster are nothing but self-centered criminals and should get what is coming to anyone who does what they did and serve a nice time in jail, and pay some nice hefty fines for the harm and what their behavior has cost the taxpayers of the country. Government land belongs to all of us collectively, not to a bunch of profit hungry dimwitted ranchers jealous because they don't own it. Some of these bums even are Mormons who have the official notion that it's OK to dun the rest of us for their multiple wives and children when they can't afford to pay for them illegal though such behavior is since they imagine they're their diddely god's 'chosen people'. What rot!
2
These so-called "constitutionalists" and "sovereign citizen" types are not limited to the western states and are not limited to the right wing. We have some such groups in the east also, often led by African-Americans who claim some type of connection to the "Moorish Nation." The danger posed by the Bundy people is significantly greater because of their reliance on semi-automatic weapons, which they argue is entitled to absolute protection under the Second Amendment.
When people are angry and unstable they present a problem for their communities and for law enforcement. When they are also armed with high-powered weapons the problem is significantly worse. LaVoy Finnicum was armed and law enforcement had no choice but to use deadly force to arrest him, given his failure to surrender. David Fry was clearly at risk of killing himself or others up until the moment he surrendered.
This incident shows that we must not and cannot accept the right's argument that Congress may not adopt reasonable restrictions on who may own firearms and on the types of firearms they may possess.
When people are angry and unstable they present a problem for their communities and for law enforcement. When they are also armed with high-powered weapons the problem is significantly worse. LaVoy Finnicum was armed and law enforcement had no choice but to use deadly force to arrest him, given his failure to surrender. David Fry was clearly at risk of killing himself or others up until the moment he surrendered.
This incident shows that we must not and cannot accept the right's argument that Congress may not adopt reasonable restrictions on who may own firearms and on the types of firearms they may possess.
1
A classic patriotic militia ending, they whine about pizza, marijuana and getting shot. It is pretty clear to this child of the 60s that the federal government is the answer; these idiots and states' rights are the problem
1
It is clear that while others support privation of public lands it is a minority and those occupying this federal facility are troubled and extreme. the idea of armed resistance to authority works is true only in movies.
1
If if these militant men were African American citizens or American Muslim citizens, they would be either dead or in jail weeks ago.
1
At 72 years of age and growing up in San Francisco, I know a little about civil protest and civil disobedience. This group of people who took over the Malheur refuge was different. They were armed, and armed to the teeth.
There is no room for armed rebellion in this country. There is no cause which requires people arming themselves to make a case. We settled that in 1865. I haven't the slightest sympathy for these people. They will get justice.
We either are a nation of laws or we will live in chaos.
There is no room for armed rebellion in this country. There is no cause which requires people arming themselves to make a case. We settled that in 1865. I haven't the slightest sympathy for these people. They will get justice.
We either are a nation of laws or we will live in chaos.
3
A major source of funding for the purchase of lands for the National Wildlife Refuge system is the entirely voluntary purchase of Duck Stamps by the citizenry of the US. More info here: http://www.fws.gov/birds/get-involved/duck-stamp/duck-stamp-dollars-at-w...
Everyone who can afford it should take this opportunity to buy the stamps and annoy these idiots some more.
Everyone who can afford it should take this opportunity to buy the stamps and annoy these idiots some more.
1
Let's just pretend for a moment that these 'patriots' finally managed to overthrow the government and what would that would look like, them. Give me Lord of the Flies or give me death, I'll take death for sure.
1
My state legislators are right now voting on a bill to demand the government give all federal lands, excluding the National Parks, to the state and they have a plan how to step by step sell them off. People like the Bundys, uneducated and deluded, are being spoon-fed by greedy politicians and corporate interests. The American people need to be vigilant. Otherwise, our public lands will slowly be eroded away and nothing will be left for our children to enjoy.
3
Justine,
Thank you for raising the alarm. I encourage everyone to contact the members of their state's Congressional delegation, asking them to oppose the insidious campaign to sell our federal public lands into the hands of wealthy private interests. You can find contact info for your legislators at www.senate.gov and www.house.gov.
Thank you for raising the alarm. I encourage everyone to contact the members of their state's Congressional delegation, asking them to oppose the insidious campaign to sell our federal public lands into the hands of wealthy private interests. You can find contact info for your legislators at www.senate.gov and www.house.gov.
Dave you're a hero already.
they were terrorists hiding behind our flag. they are coward terrorist that can't think for themselves. they are sad people with troubling issues who think they were speaking for Americans
1
The best way to defeat bullies is to ignore them.
However misplaced these men were it brings up a larger question. Do we have freedom? With an ever encroaching govt., warrant less wire taping, a govt. takeover of our healthcare, nationalizing education, the govt. picking to bail out banks, solar companies, forcing "little sisters" of the poor to provide abortion pills, govt. funded genocide in abortion, I wonder, With Hillary waltzing to the democratic nomination, is there justice? Police departments more aggressive tactics on citizens, the Federal govt. allowing illegals to overrun the country and our social services. Many states executing more prisoners, Are we free? Or it if fits our narcissism, do we think we are free? I wonder.
I encourage you to keep wondering. And in the meantime, stretch your brain little and try to collect some facts. That will help you arrive at answers to your wondering. Right now your wondering is just wandering in the Republican cesspool. Must be cold and wet down there, without a light to show you the way.
2
MiguelM,
A couple of your fears are well founded, while others are imaginary. Some, like like the Affordable Care Act, are welcomed by many of your friends and neighbors.
Whether we have freedom or not, however, depends entirely on whom you ask. Surely you don't assume it means the same thing to everyone that it does to you?
A couple of your fears are well founded, while others are imaginary. Some, like like the Affordable Care Act, are welcomed by many of your friends and neighbors.
Whether we have freedom or not, however, depends entirely on whom you ask. Surely you don't assume it means the same thing to everyone that it does to you?
1
Thank goodness this nonsense is over. Word is that Cliven Bundy has been arrested as well. IMO, he should rot in jail until he makes an effort to repay the $1M he owes the Federal Gov't.
I read Tamir Rice's family is being billed for the ambulance that took their dead son to the hospital. Shouldn't these folks be billed for the taxpayer's cost of this illegal occupation?
2
Maybe there should be a Kickstarter or GoFundMe campaign to defray the Rice family's expenses. In a just world, the people who killed that child should pay everything, but it is not a just world.
2
It ended was I said it would on Jan. 3. Real terrorism looks a whole lot different.
Well, Mr. York, whatever you said on Jan. 3, you presumably weren't the only one to say it. But I agree that the MNWR occupation doesn't qualify as terrorism.
I hope these thugs get jail time and a hefty fine.
1
Meanwhile the real threat to public land is taking place is state legislatures around the West and in Washington D.C.
Western republican politicians are intent on selling public lands to the highest bidder.
http://westernpriorities.org/news/
Western republican politicians are intent on selling public lands to the highest bidder.
http://westernpriorities.org/news/
3
'“Now we go from the refuge to our next battleground, which is the court system and legislation,” Ms. Fiore told reporters. '
They've escalated from armed rebellion to the court system! What's next? Elections?
Clearly there was some narcism at the root of this takeover. At what point will this be seen not as political protest but, for what it really is, a mental health issue?
They've escalated from armed rebellion to the court system! What's next? Elections?
Clearly there was some narcism at the root of this takeover. At what point will this be seen not as political protest but, for what it really is, a mental health issue?
1
I have no sympathy for the occupiers, and look forward to Cliven Bundy meeting some of the people in prison who he stereotyped. But things aren't always what they seem. The federal government's vindictiveness with the Hammonds' extended sentence was bound to create hard feelings. We saw the same thing with Tim DeChristopher (though his protest was peaceful, spontaneous, and brilliant).
Rural residents in the West have witnessed the decline of their communities, their ways of life, and in some cases rightly or wrongly have blamed land management agencies for changing the rules of access and use. But rural mistrust of government and institutions run by middle class professionals is nigh universal. These groups often live in parallel worlds and speak different languages. Add to the mix self-serving, perspective-obscuring media bloviators and opportunistic politicians, ready to exploit and misdirect the disaffected. What can emerge is a microcosm of national politics, one where unfair caricatures fertilize social media humor, the news moves on and conflicts resume and simmer, invisible, just below the surface.
The US Government has done horrible things (read about the signing day from the Ruby Valley 'peace and friendship' Treaty with the Western Shoshone some time ...). Its drive to settle, occupy and exploit the West is a part of that sordid history. Weaponized drones are emblematic of a more global contemporary strategy.
These armed occupiers trivialize those injustices.
Rural residents in the West have witnessed the decline of their communities, their ways of life, and in some cases rightly or wrongly have blamed land management agencies for changing the rules of access and use. But rural mistrust of government and institutions run by middle class professionals is nigh universal. These groups often live in parallel worlds and speak different languages. Add to the mix self-serving, perspective-obscuring media bloviators and opportunistic politicians, ready to exploit and misdirect the disaffected. What can emerge is a microcosm of national politics, one where unfair caricatures fertilize social media humor, the news moves on and conflicts resume and simmer, invisible, just below the surface.
The US Government has done horrible things (read about the signing day from the Ruby Valley 'peace and friendship' Treaty with the Western Shoshone some time ...). Its drive to settle, occupy and exploit the West is a part of that sordid history. Weaponized drones are emblematic of a more global contemporary strategy.
These armed occupiers trivialize those injustices.
1
Thomas Wagner, 32, an unemployed security guard from Christmas Valley, Ore., stood atop his pickup truck in full military fatigues, and said, “I came here to support these four patriots, to let them know that they are not being abandoned.” Funny how so many of these folks are unemployed and have criminal histories.. of the others, several have prior drug, weapons and assault charges, My family, over several generations has sharecropped. leased and finally bought land and guess what? We had to pay market value for the land. And if we leased more land, we had to abide by the terms of the lease or we would lose the lease. No sympathy for these subsidized , welfare ranchers and their unemployed,, criminal hangerons. No one promised the Bundy's or anyone else they could be ranchers. It's the same as wanting to be an astronaut but being mad because the government wouldn't buy you a rocket ship
4
Glad that the authorities decided to let the occupiers thaw out eventually. The last of the lot said he was "suicidal." Bull, he was more likely to be tired from the whole thing, being segregated at one section of the forest and being cornered like a live animal with nowhere to go. Its either that or you live out your life in the wilderness with little food... especially the winter is still harsh. Well, its fortunate that the right-side of the brain rationalize with the id and he eventually surrenders.
Now is the time is is the time to prosecute these terrorists and do it quickly. If we continue to ignore these types of groups and allow them to flourish we will wake up one morning and they will be in charge. These Armed lunatics whose complaint that they didn't want to pay for graising land has morphed into "suffering in slavery" need to be taught a lesson either they should be prosecuted and jailed or if they are determined to be insane, placed in institutions where they can get some treatment.
1
Tip to young black males who think your lives matter - next time you're in conflict with cops, just wave an American flag and proclaim yourself as an urban patriot. Then the cops will be real nice.
1
These people are saying this is NOT about money? What is land, but money? What is the use of the land, but money? And why do those people think that they can do better than the Feds? More fracking? Overgrazing as a way to "maximize" private gain from public land that is increasingly under pressure from climate conditions. Funny how the Federal government had the legal right to assign land rights to the railroad companies BECAUSE IT LEGALLY OWNED TITLE TO THE LAND, but now that it doesn't suit the ranchers and Western industrialists who want to frack and dig and wreak more environmental damage, they want the land "back". People like that make me sick - suck off the Federal government largesse through subsidies and then say they want more. Who's the real takers here?
2
Excellent work by the FBI. Loretta Lynch is one cool cucumber, and our agents did an unbelievably skillful job at ending the reign of these whacked out entitled freaks that think they should be allowed to steal from us all. The Bundy's are definitely not the sharpest tools in the shed. Rounding up the rustlers took longer than many of us thought it should it first, but obviously humiliating the goobers is much smarter than letting them claim victory. Other than Finicum's death wish granted, the insurrectionists crawled out of their hole powerless except for their constant yammering about the stuff they want. So perfect that the last holdout just really wanted one last cookie.
2
You do a dis-service to all of us and society by referring to these criminals as "militants" or "holdouts". They are breakers-of-our-laws, by any stretch of facts or imagination. Glorifying them or what they have done is not a solution. They should be treated as any other lawbreakers would be, as you or I would be. Let Oregon proceed with the task..........
3
These domestic terrorists attacked each-and-every one of us through their attack on the Federal government. They MUST be indicted on the gravest of charges, and they must pay with long sentences in Federal prisons. By the grace of God, Cliven Bundy will die in prison, and the rest of the unholy group will either die in prison or will only be released when they are too old to do more harm to the nation.
1
Does anyone notice? Talk is as loony as the folks who do it (and that of course is all of us). But it beats force any day. Today our struggling limp to civilization can chart up a victory. Hats off--and big thanks--to the folks of the FBI.
1
“I’m actually feeling suicidal right now,” said David Fry, 27, of Blanchester, Ohio, the last of the remaining protesters to leave the wildlife sanctuary, during telephone negotiations over his surrender. “I will not go another day as a slave to this system. I’m a free man. I will die a free man.”
Well you just may die because the penalty for treason is death. Now I don't believe in the death penalty but that is the law as it stands now. You better hope the authorities only charge you with terrorism and that my friends is what I want you to be charged as a terrorist.
Well you just may die because the penalty for treason is death. Now I don't believe in the death penalty but that is the law as it stands now. You better hope the authorities only charge you with terrorism and that my friends is what I want you to be charged as a terrorist.
1
High Country News has a followup interview with a former FBI hostage negotiator, looking at some of the issues involved with the timing of the arrests and surrender. It's worth reading.
http://www.hcn.org/articles/fbi-analyst-says-the-remaining-occupiers-nee...
http://www.hcn.org/articles/fbi-analyst-says-the-remaining-occupiers-nee...
1
I'm shocked that it took the federal authorities until now to arrest Cliven Bundy for crimes committed in 2014, when the Feds backed off from punishing Bundy for that armed standoff. It's been almost two years. What have the FBI and U.S. attorneys being doing this whole time? The Feds not swiftly punishing Cliven Bundy in 2014 led directly to this mess, because his wacko sons came away from that confrontation with the idea that the federal government was a pushover and could be intimidated by force of arms. I hope this is a good lesson to the FBI and U.S. attorneys everywhere--you give these "take back America back" ideologues and fools one inch, and they'll take a whole foot. Punish them to the greatest extent of the law the first time.
Also, this quote tells me all I need to know--“I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.” Only someone selfish and childishly immature can utter a quote like that. I vote and rarely do I get what I want too, mostly because anti-government ideologues, Christian zealots, barely-disguised racists, and, frankly, simply unhinged and grossly misinformed individuals keep voting in legislators in Congress and in state legislatures who espouse antediluvian views. Like someone earlier said, that's the price one pays for democracy. And I'm glad I pay for it, because my family came from a country where democracy is relatively new and the politics there are even more atrocious and frightening than the domestic politics here.
Also, this quote tells me all I need to know--“I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.” Only someone selfish and childishly immature can utter a quote like that. I vote and rarely do I get what I want too, mostly because anti-government ideologues, Christian zealots, barely-disguised racists, and, frankly, simply unhinged and grossly misinformed individuals keep voting in legislators in Congress and in state legislatures who espouse antediluvian views. Like someone earlier said, that's the price one pays for democracy. And I'm glad I pay for it, because my family came from a country where democracy is relatively new and the politics there are even more atrocious and frightening than the domestic politics here.
4
David Fry has a pretty high opinion of himself...“My concern is that if I go to prison, I’ll probably be raped.” What a laugh. No wonder it's so hard to take these people seriously.
2
What a complete failure of a protest. Nobody but them has any idea what they are angry about.
I've never been to this one, but have enjoyed going to a Wildlife Refuge in Sanibel Island, Florida. If there was ever anything the government does for the benefit of all the people, and for the environment, it's a Wildlife Refuge. Absolutely the worst choice to exemplify the evils of the Federal Government. Unless they were to shut down Yellowstone and Yosemite.
I've never been to this one, but have enjoyed going to a Wildlife Refuge in Sanibel Island, Florida. If there was ever anything the government does for the benefit of all the people, and for the environment, it's a Wildlife Refuge. Absolutely the worst choice to exemplify the evils of the Federal Government. Unless they were to shut down Yellowstone and Yosemite.
2
These people were not protesters as you say in the article. They were an armed uprising by militia types who want to destroy our Federal govt. They are charged with felonies for threatening federal workers....Wake up guys, domestic terrorism is a big threat to our peaceful lives.
In Oregon we are happy to have the Bundy Cult behind bars. More exploration by the Times of their religious, and far right propaganda would be welcome.
In Oregon we are happy to have the Bundy Cult behind bars. More exploration by the Times of their religious, and far right propaganda would be welcome.
5
Well, I guess these people hve learned their lesson for future, uh, demonstrations.
Gotta take in more cigarettes, more cookies, and more marijuana. Oh, the travails of defending the Constitution!
-dlj.
3
These fools need to re-take their High School American history courses. The reason the U.S. Federal Government owns so much land in the West, like Oregon, is because the "Gobermint" BOUGHT the entire state from the U.K. in 1865. Prior to the US Government, and earlier the British Crown, owning the land it belonged to the Native Americans. It NEVER belonged to the U.S. citizens until the Homestead Act was passed. Just listen to the rants of these "Sagebrush Rebels"...they are obviously dimwitted and/or mentally ill.
2
It would be interesting to see the evidence for the Times' repeated reporting that federal ownership of land is somehow a hot issue in the West, and that there's serious disagreement with "government" ownership of this land. On the contrary, most westerners love all that open land that only exists because it IS in public ownership, and it's only a small minority of selfish, self-centered people like these "protesters" who want it all for themselves, when in fact they have no right to it. It's OUR land not THEIR land. And let's all keep it that way.
4
Don't these people have jobs or families they are responsible for? What average American has 40 days to participate in such nonsense? As others have already commented, if this country is not up to your high standards, try Syria or Iraq.
12
"I call for the Cookie Wagon, Captain." (Lt. Harris, our favorite Author-Detective, on "Barney Miller")
"Crazy is ... as Crazy does." With Apologies to Mr. Gump, of the Bubba-Gump Shrimp Co.
A friend of mine re-explained the word, "Republic", to me and reminded me that Americans use the tools the Law supplies to redress grievances. Possibly, it is NOW important for all of us to remember this is how America is supposed to operate.
Now, where did I store those study materials, from that crazy high school I attended, on "The Federalist Papers"?
"Crazy is ... as Crazy does." With Apologies to Mr. Gump, of the Bubba-Gump Shrimp Co.
A friend of mine re-explained the word, "Republic", to me and reminded me that Americans use the tools the Law supplies to redress grievances. Possibly, it is NOW important for all of us to remember this is how America is supposed to operate.
Now, where did I store those study materials, from that crazy high school I attended, on "The Federalist Papers"?
The FBI and other federal law enforcement personnel have clearly come a long way since the disastrous confrontations of Wounded Knee, Ruby Ridge, and Waco. With the standoff against Mr. Bundy in 2014 and now the occupation in Oregon, I’m impressed with their discipline.
While the occupation certainly disrupted the community and affected the employees of the occupied station, the patience amongst all parties was well rewarded. Of course, Mr. Finicum’s death was tragic, but it appears he threatened law enforcement by reaching for his pockets after he’d been ordered to keep his hands up.
At the end of the day, the American people aren't` going to support the privatization of federal lands, but anyone is welcome to protest that reality—peacefully. Mr. Clive Bundy, I believe you owe the US taxpayers twenty years of back rent. Will this be cash or credit card?
While the occupation certainly disrupted the community and affected the employees of the occupied station, the patience amongst all parties was well rewarded. Of course, Mr. Finicum’s death was tragic, but it appears he threatened law enforcement by reaching for his pockets after he’d been ordered to keep his hands up.
At the end of the day, the American people aren't` going to support the privatization of federal lands, but anyone is welcome to protest that reality—peacefully. Mr. Clive Bundy, I believe you owe the US taxpayers twenty years of back rent. Will this be cash or credit card?
17
Militant Mormon maniacs, fringe nut cases, dead enders, back woods Western red necks, uneducated buffoons, religious fanatics, off the grid white supremacist . . .
anti government terrorists . . . send em all to a Federal Super Max Prison and throw away the key!!
anti government terrorists . . . send em all to a Federal Super Max Prison and throw away the key!!
10
There are huge numbers of people who, though not acting like them, think like them, and unfortunately they get to vote, often in gerrymandered districts or from low population states and thus there votes count more
The right wing goes on endlessly about getting rid of undocumented workers because they are BREAKING THE LAW. Then they go on about defending our country. We would make better use of our army defending our country from traitors like these guys and leave the Iraqis to settle their own problems.
14
I commend the Federal and State authorities for having unlimited patience with these people!....More than I would have had... It's Just another example of the efforts that the Obama administration goes through to be fair and impartial to those in disagreement with them and their policies...Can you imagine a Trump or Cruise administration having the courage or patience to resolve this conflict peacefully?
9
Attention Terrorists: Let you and your ilk who even think about pulling this again understand that our patience with you felons does not mean we will be lenient with our charges. Know this: you will be treated, tried, and incarcerated like the terrorists you are. Starting with Ammon Bundy.
8
and including Cliven Bundy and his compatriots from the Nevada episode. I hope the cattle he grazes gratis on public land are being rounded up as we speak.
2
Congratulations to the FBI on a job well done. Except for a tiny, insignificant group of maniacs, the country is proud of you.
12
“I declare war against the federal government,” he said, and yet throughout the article the NYT uses the terms 'militant' and 'activist'. LOL. Orwell's 1984 Newspeak in everyday use. FYI: Nobody is fooled, these people are terrorists. End of story.
14
Most Oregonians are happy to see this winding down..The armed militias in the US are scarey. Cliven Bundy might have his own little army,( like warlords, or drug cartels.) reading about the charges in Portland today...In the background also are the KOCH Bros and ALEC and ALC, trying to get public lands privatized for financial gain. Most of us love the public lands and want them protected. If you have ever been to a "logging show" you would know why the environmental movement has been so necessary. I lived in the outback. We cut firewood on the clearcuts where every living thing was wasted.....
10
If you want to blame something for your problems, blame the government. It's easy.
Of course, the government is the people, so if you don't get everything you want, blame the rest of the people.
Because you live in freedom, everything isn't free.
You pay for what you get.
Pitiful stuff.
Of course, the government is the people, so if you don't get everything you want, blame the rest of the people.
Because you live in freedom, everything isn't free.
You pay for what you get.
Pitiful stuff.
4
If these guys represent the militia movement--with their violent ideology, huge guns and "patriotism"--then let's arm the AARP, Girl Scouts, and PETA to guard our liberties, because these guys are the biggest pussies I've ever seen. Not encouraging violence, but they folded like a napkin without firing a single shot. When it came to walk the walk, they gave up. Meow, meow, meow...
6
Has anyone looked into whether the commissary at the federal prison in Sheridan, Oregon, is well-stocked with Jolly Ranchers?
3
This is how the sense of entitlement prevails for 41 days. What took the F.B.I so long?
1
What took them so long was their incredible patience in dealing with irrational miscreants. It is sort of like a parent who has to deal with a two year old's tantrums. You wait the kid out, he gives up, and goes on about normal business. Of course, in this case their are larger repercussions, and they'll eventually have to pay for their crimes, one hopes. With the bizarre judges we have in federal courts these days due to the past republican administrations, one can only hope, of course.
Would you have preferred that the Feds had immediately called in a flotilla of B-52s to bomb the whole refuge into oblivion? You know, Shock and Awe in the Wild West.
Fry actually said "Chemically mutating people" not "castrating everybody." I'm not sure which is worse though.
So, they really were crazy.
Shocker!
The only difference I could see between Mr. Fry's whacky rant and the regular programming running daily on Fox-Kids and Clear Channel was the lack of Reverse Mortgage ads after Mr. Fry's meltdown.
Shocker!
The only difference I could see between Mr. Fry's whacky rant and the regular programming running daily on Fox-Kids and Clear Channel was the lack of Reverse Mortgage ads after Mr. Fry's meltdown.
7
A very wise decision. The F.B.I. might have killed them like they did Mr. Finicum. They will be well treated in Prison as Heroes.
“I support his purpose,” the elder Mr. Fry said, adding that his son’s purpose was “trying to make a change, to save our country from the problems that we’ve got.”
Like Father, like son. If both of these lowlifes crawl back under the rock they emerged from, America will be a much better place.
Like Father, like son. If both of these lowlifes crawl back under the rock they emerged from, America will be a much better place.
8
I just read part of the charges against Cliven Bundy....He may have had a personal army there in Nevada....like a warlord in Somalia or another place...Body guards and militia camps....Finally they got him....These guys are a threat to democracy...they are right wing, religious fanatics...with GUNS
Many of us in OREGON are breathing a big sigh of relief today.....The FBI and OSP did good. Thank you.
Many of us in OREGON are breathing a big sigh of relief today.....The FBI and OSP did good. Thank you.
64
Give the feds credit for patience and intelligence in waiting them out without the nightmare civil liberties police state violations of Waco and Ruby Ridge , among others. The Malheur occupiers discredit all law abiding Second Amendment supporters. There is a pathetic quality to their shrill wannabe commando antics , replete with camo, long guns, and inflammatory rhetoric.
I doubt they are aware of the public good. Would Americans want to be governed by such as these?
All that said, we need to honor legitimate grievances and dissent. Their actions show that some people do not trust their own government, which is an issue broader than Malheur.
I doubt they are aware of the public good. Would Americans want to be governed by such as these?
All that said, we need to honor legitimate grievances and dissent. Their actions show that some people do not trust their own government, which is an issue broader than Malheur.
Some commenters are unhappy with the length of time it took to resolve the issue. It doesn't trouble me much at all, though I certainly didn't like the occupation.
The federal government gave these people the time to make their own rope from which to hang themselves. And they exposed the vacuity of their ideas through their press releases and videos for all the world to see. In other words, they destroyed their own credibility with most people. Do you note how many people didn't join the occupation when called?
The government let them fantasize themselves into security and waited for them to leave the refuge before making the first arrests on the highway. It's unfortunate that Mr. Finicum died. But he was the only one. It could have been much worse.
And even after those arrests, Cliven Bundy, the father, was lulled into thinking he could travel freely. Instead, he was arrested at the airport in Portland. Imagine the potential bloodbath had law enforcement gone to his ranch in Nevada to nab him.
Depending on the circumstances the next time people pull similar stunts the government might be just as patient, or it might say: We won't be as patient as at Malheur.
The federal government gave these people the time to make their own rope from which to hang themselves. And they exposed the vacuity of their ideas through their press releases and videos for all the world to see. In other words, they destroyed their own credibility with most people. Do you note how many people didn't join the occupation when called?
The government let them fantasize themselves into security and waited for them to leave the refuge before making the first arrests on the highway. It's unfortunate that Mr. Finicum died. But he was the only one. It could have been much worse.
And even after those arrests, Cliven Bundy, the father, was lulled into thinking he could travel freely. Instead, he was arrested at the airport in Portland. Imagine the potential bloodbath had law enforcement gone to his ranch in Nevada to nab him.
Depending on the circumstances the next time people pull similar stunts the government might be just as patient, or it might say: We won't be as patient as at Malheur.
38
I hope they will be ever be as patient. These folks wanted to provoke a Ruby Ridge or Waco. Not falling for the provocation showed the wisdom of the agencies. Particularly in the public's eye as the case wound down to pizza, marijuana and fear of prison.
1
I am so glad that father Bundy has been reunited with his sons in jail. May they all stay there forever.
32
You know, I really do think that it is about the money. How to avoid paying basically subsidized grazing fees. I think Teddy Roosevelt must be rolling over in his grave. It was his efforts that led to the designation of many areas in the West as national treasures worthy of federal protection. I mean, come on, taking over a wildlife refuge? Thanks goodness the four remaining holdouts whose comments make them seem like whiners, are out of the refuge and out of Harney County. I think we should all go there next summer and visit the refuge. Uncle Teddy would like that.
30
Nikkia: the occupiers should reimburse us taxpayers for their stupidity, and the money we spent on the bullet used to shoot one of them
Besides wanting more 'free stuff,' there seems to be both a mental illness dimension -example documented tactfully in this article - as well as an insular religious and cultural overtone. It takes thousands of acres of good grazing land to run a profitable cattle outfit that competes in the global beef market and if the militia leaders are predominantly Mormon as reported, this means very big families. The Pew Trust published "Portrait of Mormons in the USA" (available online) sums it up this way: "Only Muslims are similarly likely to have large families [compared to Mormons]." If a rancher has more than one son and wishes to divide up the land among his male heirs (it won't be among the women), it is impossible for those male heirs to succeed without more 'free stuff' in the way of land.
1
If you go, you will find a starkly beautiful land. I have been one time, and intend to go back. The only problem is, we the people have so many of these places that one can't get to them all in a lifetime. Pity.
I despise these "militia" types. The sully the flag they wave so eagerly. They spit on the Constitution they claim to cherish. I wonder if they ever served their country a day in their lives. They are not heroes or even courageous. They are felons, common criminals. They used weapons to threaten federal officials. They occupied federal property. They confiscated federal property. They crossed state lines for the purpose of committing a crime. They are directly responsible for the death of their co-conspirator. Adding it all up should result in a visit to a federal prison for many, many years. They should be required to pay the costs of the siege and destruction of federal property. Good riddance to them.
54
Thank goodness this did not end like Ruby Ridge.
6
Oh, the injustice of not getting something for free. Yes, the Federal Government owns vast amounts of land (see NY TIMES Why the Government Owns So Much Land in the West) and as I understand it, Federal Grazing fees are very low (the federal grazing fees are around 6.72% of fees charged for private grazing lands). The Federal Government does sell land out west (you can look for it on the GSA website) but they never sell at a discount. Anyway, If the Federal Government were going to turn the land over to the original owners - wouldn't they be looking at Native American Claims first? So - the protesters are starting to look like a group called: "Americans who want something for nothing".
25
These slime are not "occupiers" nor are they "militants." They are terrorists, plain and simple.
19
They have been mooching off taxpayers for year...."yuge" welfare queens. Now they get to spend years, hopefully decades living off Uncle Sam. Racist bigots who think because they know there is a word "Constitution" that they know what is in it and what it means.
16
As a proud Oregonian - glad this is over for now - we have a lot of work to do to restore the land over there damaged by these terrorists. The good people of Oregon will prevail - we will restore and respect the precious land. May these terrorists receive the full punishment available under the law and may they never return to Oregon.
23
David Fry has done a brilliant job of positioning himself to win the GOP presidential nomination in 2020.
23
This would be a pretty funny comment if it wasn't so scary...
Interesting that his biggest concern about going to prison is that he might be raped, considering his distaste for taxpayer dollars going towards abortions (even though they don't) that female victims of sexual assault may desperately need
24
God forbid that taxpayer dollars were spent on making prisons safer for inmates!
There's a new refuge that these folks can all now legally occupy - prison. Too bad it's not that easy for them to invite their friends to join them. since then we'd all be a bit safer.
17
Sometimes a person does not get his (or her) own way. Understanding this fact is one of the conditions of adulthood. A person that defies the law or cultural codes of the neighborhood or nation can also be considered an adult, if they accept the consequences of defiance. Threatening suicide as a response to being told "No" is childish. Children can be great people, but they don't make great leaders or adult role models. And...sometimes they don't even make good reality TV.
19
Please let these "patriots" know that the rest of the country was decidedly against them. Majority Rule--they lost.
Perhaps tell the Freedom Caucus the same---though they haven't brought tents and weapons in to Congress, yet.
Perhaps tell the Freedom Caucus the same---though they haven't brought tents and weapons in to Congress, yet.
25
Love the analogy.
This was an armed insurrection by illegally occupying federal public land. They violated federal law and should be indicted, tried and hopefully convicted and sentenced.
Although they may have the right of free speech and the the right to bear arms, they may not do so and impede the rest of us and our rights, which they did. And by their actions, they prevented the rest of us, especially the nearby residents from legally using this land. Their rights are no greater than the rest of us, who are citizens.
Finally, prior arguments that some of their forbears may have grazed their livestock on what are now federal lands, and accordingly have a greater right to the same than the federal government are of no moment. The only ones who may have those rights, are the native peoples who occupied them for hundreds or thousands of years before our ancestors came to this land.
Although they may have the right of free speech and the the right to bear arms, they may not do so and impede the rest of us and our rights, which they did. And by their actions, they prevented the rest of us, especially the nearby residents from legally using this land. Their rights are no greater than the rest of us, who are citizens.
Finally, prior arguments that some of their forbears may have grazed their livestock on what are now federal lands, and accordingly have a greater right to the same than the federal government are of no moment. The only ones who may have those rights, are the native peoples who occupied them for hundreds or thousands of years before our ancestors came to this land.
21
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
It's about time they arrested those fools. They even arrested daddy Cliven Bundy. It's a great day for democracy in America!
26
Thanks Obama - for having the kind of administration with the patience to wait out these welfare cowboys and avoid making martyrs of them.
46
Terrorism won today. It's a sad day for America.
From the New Terrorism Handbook, 2016 Edition:
When plaaning acts of terrorism on American soil, be sure to follow the guidelines:
1. Commit the act while a Democrat is president, so you will have the backing of all conservatives who would rather oppose him than uphold the law
2. Only send Caucasian-Christians to do the deed, since non-white/non-Christians will get zero tolerance while you will be humored with kid gloves for at least 5 weeks
3. Be sure to say your actions are motivated by opposition to government overreach/gay rights/abortion/gun control and you'll have legions of supporters defending you
4. Get ready to be a media darling/have your own reality TV show/be a speaker at conservative fundraisers once you pay the parking ticket levied as "punishment."
From the New Terrorism Handbook, 2016 Edition:
When plaaning acts of terrorism on American soil, be sure to follow the guidelines:
1. Commit the act while a Democrat is president, so you will have the backing of all conservatives who would rather oppose him than uphold the law
2. Only send Caucasian-Christians to do the deed, since non-white/non-Christians will get zero tolerance while you will be humored with kid gloves for at least 5 weeks
3. Be sure to say your actions are motivated by opposition to government overreach/gay rights/abortion/gun control and you'll have legions of supporters defending you
4. Get ready to be a media darling/have your own reality TV show/be a speaker at conservative fundraisers once you pay the parking ticket levied as "punishment."
20
I think Fry being exposed as some goof with a blanket getting talked down off the ceiling while getting one last cookie and cigarette pretty is pretty much a deal-breaker for the tough-guy image. The guy sounds like he is 10 years old.
22
Actually the guy sounded mentally disturbed and like he ought to be in treatment. I hope he gets what he needs.
1
Hopefully that parking ticket will be years behind bars. Long enough for them to be forgotten.
Why do these people wave the US flag when they are hell bent on overthrowing the gubment? Defies logic.
28
Same reason they demonize the federal government while driving on US freeways and asking for donations via the USPS. Not to mention Cliven asking for a court-appointed attorney. The government is to be leaned on when convenient, then branded as evil when it levies taxes or requires law-abiding behavior.
Let's see if this gets through. All those decades of cop shows sure paid off for the cops after reading some of these comments. By extension, many are for limiting Freedom and outlawing much. Some people call these men "Terrorists". Did you, who I write of, really allow yourselves to be so brainwashed by your Televisions and Movies?
Take time out, turn it all off, and think deeply for yourselves. Please.
Take time out, turn it all off, and think deeply for yourselves. Please.
2
Why do you believe you are the only deep thinker among us?
Anyway, "We the People" still love citizens, like you, that believe they have more wisdom than the rest of us.
May peace be with you. Keep blogging, you are somewhat entertaining!
Anyway, "We the People" still love citizens, like you, that believe they have more wisdom than the rest of us.
May peace be with you. Keep blogging, you are somewhat entertaining!
I still think they terrorists!
So u support terrorism and r OK subsidizing it w yr taxes?
I am sorry to say this speaks for itself.
3
@Peter Olafson,
Never be sorry for speaking the truth.
2-11-16@11:43 pm
Never be sorry for speaking the truth.
2-11-16@11:43 pm
No bail. Throw the book at the traitor terrorists.
19
Read this through my blurred vision originally as 'trailer terrorists.' Lol!
mamas shouldn't let their babies grow up to be traitors.
30
lol!
Thank God this is over. And thank Obama that he finally found the guts to arrest Cliven.
15
It wasn't a matter of guts. Going in to arrest Cliven on his home ground would have triggered a bloodbath and created a martyr. Far, far better to show some patience and arrest him quietly at the airport.
Surely the Republicans will be ashamed to accept the support and the votes of these misguided people, now that all America has seen and heard them.
13
Sadly, Republicans feel no shame when they have Presidential candidates who can lie as repeatedly as Carly did about Planned Parenthood.
They have no shame.
Nice of the guys to go to all this trouble to give the land back to the Indians.
16
The government handled this better than Waco or Ruby Ridge to their credit.
9
"I've peacefully voted and nothing is ever done."
I'd like to take a look at this guy's voting record to see if he has actually ever voted for anything.
I'd like to take a look at this guy's voting record to see if he has actually ever voted for anything.
21
I guess he was really serious about "wanting to take the country back." Literally, in his case.
i suppose it would be asking too mu.ch for them to pay for th law enforcement over time and damage they caused to th facility
guess youll have to pay for their heavily armed temper tantrum
guess youll have to pay for their heavily armed temper tantrum
9
Can we please boil this down to the simple facts, the intention of the occupiers to gain some kind of victory through the court system notwithstanding? They occupied a government building on government land, acting out a "freeman on the land" fantasy that living in an echo chamber of convoluted ideas torn from your Constitution and mangled for their own purposes brought them to.
10
Are these terrorists going to be billed for the thousands of dollars their hostage taking cost? Will there be an investigation as to how these terrorist got their guns, and a round up of all the terrorist enablers who gave them aide and support?
17
I think those of us who remember Ruby Ridge and Waco have to give a lot of credit to the way the FBI handled these nutjobs. They could have rightfully moved in at any time and put down the armed occupation--which is likely what the Bundys wanted all along. But they didn't, and in doing so, let the ridiculous, paranoid, selfish arguments of these militants dominate their existence. Which only hurt them. I'm awfully proud of our FBI, the Oregon State Police, and Sheriff Ward.
21
How dare they wave our American flag! I hope my government prosecutes these idiots to the full extent of our laws!
10
It's ironic that the forebears of these would-be insurrectionists were the distillers of the whiskey rebellion (1794) who refused to pay a tax levied by the US. President Washington raised the state militias (yes: those 'well-regulated militias' that the second amendment is REALLY about) and 13,000 militiamen put down the rebellion peacefully.
I am happy that this kerfuffle was ended with only one loss of life. I could have been much worse.
I am happy that this kerfuffle was ended with only one loss of life. I could have been much worse.
10
The ignorant narcissism of Mr. Fry and his yahoo cohorts, who expected the government to do what they wanted regardless of other considerations, has been put on pathetic display, and at the cost of pointless millions of dollars wasted, by a Federal government that had the power to end this ridiculous public tantrum with a simple, violence-free gesture that was perfectly within their rights to make.
Had the electricity and other utilities been turned off at the site of this "Alamo" at the outset of hostilities, then everyone would have been forced to return to whatever lives they were leaving and clear the airwaves and the internet for news of interest and import.
Of course, this whole charade was enabled by the gutless behavior of Federal authorities when faced in earlier times by the self-serving "idealism" of Cliven Bundy, who, like a NYC turnstile jumper, wanted to take public services for nothing.
Had the electricity and other utilities been turned off at the site of this "Alamo" at the outset of hostilities, then everyone would have been forced to return to whatever lives they were leaving and clear the airwaves and the internet for news of interest and import.
Of course, this whole charade was enabled by the gutless behavior of Federal authorities when faced in earlier times by the self-serving "idealism" of Cliven Bundy, who, like a NYC turnstile jumper, wanted to take public services for nothing.
2
You seem to not recognize the millions of dollars that will be saved as this humiliation ripples through the population. The best way to defeat bullies is to ignore them.
Maybe some good will come out of this seditious craziness if it helps draw public awareness to threats on our precious public lands from assorted political and corporate interests. Even some mainstream libertarians don't believe in the very concept of public land. Our various systems of public lands are our birthright as Americans, and one of the great things about living in this country. Perhaps even Cliven may realize that with all the free time he hopefully will have in prison for attempting to take that way from his fellow citizens.
13
It seems like the last several years has been an age of anger for many conservative Americans. In evolution terms, it sounds like the last knuckle drag through the mud before the inevitable extinction.
Times have changed much. People are more connected than ever and knowledge, along with justice and equity, travels faster and farther across the country. The old boys club is frightened at the fast approaching reality of losing grip on the privileges in the American society and is making its last stand against their enemy whom they can't quite identify. So they blame the government for their misery, since government is an illusory and abstract entity of power.
It's quite a show. Now that time has come for them to actually face accountability for the first time before an Article 3 judge, they broke. Asking the Court to drop the indictment and felony charges in exchange for compliance to the law is the ultimate expression of white privilege. They want that privilege and power back. They want to Make America Great Again. That entitlement is hard to regain once it's gone.
Times have changed much. People are more connected than ever and knowledge, along with justice and equity, travels faster and farther across the country. The old boys club is frightened at the fast approaching reality of losing grip on the privileges in the American society and is making its last stand against their enemy whom they can't quite identify. So they blame the government for their misery, since government is an illusory and abstract entity of power.
It's quite a show. Now that time has come for them to actually face accountability for the first time before an Article 3 judge, they broke. Asking the Court to drop the indictment and felony charges in exchange for compliance to the law is the ultimate expression of white privilege. They want that privilege and power back. They want to Make America Great Again. That entitlement is hard to regain once it's gone.
14
Tear gas, pepper spray, incessant loud music, scrambled satellite access. Why were these (white) people allowed to stay free for so long? They should all be given very high bail, charged, convicted, and also fined for the time and materials required to monitor their activities and bring them in.
7
I say put Bundy Sr. to work on federal rangeland somewhere clearing invasive plants for minimum wage. In 66 years he'll have the million dollars he owes us paid off.
21
It is dumbfounding just how many different ways people find to demonstrate that being a "patriot" is dangerous, psychotic, and very much against the law.
13
Well, they've had way more than their '15 minutes of fame'. They strike me as a bunch of one-trick-ponies and not very bright at that.
19
This Fiore woman deserves little or no credit for anything. She fanned the flames all along in this armed illegal exercise and is running for Congress. She should be ashamed as a public official for supporting this behavior.
32
Agreed, she proved herself to be a self-serving grandstander and nothing more.
Call her up on the web. She is a narcissist who lives bathing in the spotlight. BTW, she is also selling a calendar featuring herself for each month with a sort of exhibitionist costume plus firearms on her waist or in her hands. Says it all.
All the talk about being Christian and patriots by these men and women ignores the fact that few if any of them have ever served this country. Did they ever stop to think that those FBI, BLM folks may also be Christian and patriots?
How many of those men and women have run for public office back home, in order to work to change bad laws? How many of them have peacefully protested on a regular basis back home? How many of them have worked year after year to get their members of the House and Senate to undue laws they disagree with? Heck how many of them even know who their elected officials are?
These are spoiled privileged white folks who ignore the fact that the majority of Americans support open land here in the west NOT being used for financial gain by businesses be they cattlemen, oil, mineral industry folks.
How many of those men and women have run for public office back home, in order to work to change bad laws? How many of them have peacefully protested on a regular basis back home? How many of them have worked year after year to get their members of the House and Senate to undue laws they disagree with? Heck how many of them even know who their elected officials are?
These are spoiled privileged white folks who ignore the fact that the majority of Americans support open land here in the west NOT being used for financial gain by businesses be they cattlemen, oil, mineral industry folks.
46
He sure sounds cuckoo! Nevertheless, he took the cowardly way out, costing all the rest of us millions, perhaps much more.
5
So why were they not shot 100 times like we treat other "thugs".
May be skin color had some thing to do with it.
May be skin color had some thing to do with it.
5
The last paragraph says it all - - man, wearing military fatigues, stands on pickup truck waving an American flag, and on his truck there's a Confederate flag bumper sticker. Whatever message they are trying to get across is garbled, confused, and illogical. And there's the whole raft of weird titles they give themselves. I especially enjoy "Constitutional Cowboy." I happen to be a Constitutional Birder and I'm glad Malheur is back in the hands of the birds!
28
Let us not forget that Ted Cruz had expressed support for these clowns previously.
26
I just see another mentally unstable person with a gun standing up for his culturally induced ignorance. I can't help but believe the republican party and people like Rush create these nuts by spreading a message of rage and discontent. The republican party has contributed greatly to the agnotology and discontent of their rabid followers. These guys and Ms Fiore and her Christmas card are an example of the republicans party creation.
21
Can we call these cretins something accurate - trespassers, common criminals, armed and dangerous outlaws? Calling these people "militants" gives them much more credibility and respect than they deserve.
20
Keep in mind that the real issue here is the fact that there are some extremely powerful groups such as the American Land Council who would love to privatize or take control of our public lands in the west for oil, mining and logging. Ammon Bundy himself said that he had "deep pockets" behind him. Public lands are owned by all the people of the United States and should not be managed solely by private entities interested only in exploiting its resources. Let us not forget that all the regulations that the resource extraction entities are complaining about were designed to assure that the lands are managed for the long term by minimizing the environmental degradation associated with logging, mining, and grazing. The call for local control for the public lands is nothing more than an attempt to circumvent the environmental and land use regulations designed to protect the public's interest. The call for privatization is nothing more than a land grab.
39
As if those of us who respect the constitution and the agreements current states made to cede lands to the federal government are not patriotic.
Give us a break. Let's open up new wing at St. Elizabeths and warehouse these Militia nuts there.Maybe next door to Hannibal Lector.
Give us a break. Let's open up new wing at St. Elizabeths and warehouse these Militia nuts there.Maybe next door to Hannibal Lector.
6
The FBI sends the wrong message when it allows a 40 day standoff. At the first sign of hostile occupation, they should have stormed the place with overwhelming force and shot anyone that looked like they were going for a weapon. This should have been over the next day. We send the wrong message when we tolerate people doing the wrong thing.
Just like the riots. Man, when that happens, the police and national guard should storm them with overwhelming force and arrest EVERYONE.
As long as this kind of behavior is tolerated, it will continue.
Just like the riots. Man, when that happens, the police and national guard should storm them with overwhelming force and arrest EVERYONE.
As long as this kind of behavior is tolerated, it will continue.
2
Reading your comment reassures me how happy I am living in the United States, not Cibu, Philippines. Perhaps they handle things the way you suggest there. I wouldn't trade.
Mr. Bundy believes he can be his own lawmaker, interpreter, and executioner. He believes that a lawful order of an Article 3 judge and indictment from an American jury do not apply to him, and unilaterally (and fictionally) overruled the American justice system. If he believes that he is not subject to jurisdiction of the courts and American criminal justice system he should relinquish his citizenship and move abroad.
He may not participate in American politics or enjoy any of its privileges and way of life when he take matters into his own hands and disrespect our cherished principle of separation of powers. He had his day in court, all the way to the Supreme Court, and lost. This is a civil society. He is guaranteed a day in court by a jury of his peers, but not guaranteed a favorable verdict. Win some and lose some, but he cannot rebel against the verdict with guns.
His actions taken against our government is an act of treason and sedition. Holding up government property at gun point demanding political change is terrorism; what Al Qaida does in Somalia.
It's astonishing he thought he'd walk scotfree without consequences and that America would be with him. Asking the federal government to drop felony charges during an active criminal activity is the ultimate expression of white privilege. His pale skin color spared his life, and he should thank God that he will serve a short prison term. No other group would have been shown such patience from the law enforcement.
He may not participate in American politics or enjoy any of its privileges and way of life when he take matters into his own hands and disrespect our cherished principle of separation of powers. He had his day in court, all the way to the Supreme Court, and lost. This is a civil society. He is guaranteed a day in court by a jury of his peers, but not guaranteed a favorable verdict. Win some and lose some, but he cannot rebel against the verdict with guns.
His actions taken against our government is an act of treason and sedition. Holding up government property at gun point demanding political change is terrorism; what Al Qaida does in Somalia.
It's astonishing he thought he'd walk scotfree without consequences and that America would be with him. Asking the federal government to drop felony charges during an active criminal activity is the ultimate expression of white privilege. His pale skin color spared his life, and he should thank God that he will serve a short prison term. No other group would have been shown such patience from the law enforcement.
13
"But despite the occupiers’ calls for people from around the country to join them, the mass movement they hoped for never materialized."
What's evident is that these people live in an echo chamber and believe that throngs of like-minded crazies will rush to overthrow the government, which they perceive as evil. Imagine a country run by these self-centered, emotionally stunted juveniles. We'd all be punching our tickets for Canada.
What's evident is that these people live in an echo chamber and believe that throngs of like-minded crazies will rush to overthrow the government, which they perceive as evil. Imagine a country run by these self-centered, emotionally stunted juveniles. We'd all be punching our tickets for Canada.
27
How come the Times isn't crediting the FBI negotiators for the work they did? Yes, the Nevada assemblywoman and Franklin Graham helped, but it was the FBI who kept the lines open - for hours, allowed the occupiers to air their grievances - for hours, maintain patient, peaceful (albeit tense) situation from getting out of hand - for hours. The FBI negotiators showed reserve, professionalism and they met their objective: a stand down of the standoff and the occupiers turning themselves in.
43
Apparently the FBI guys (and gals?) were even willing to should "Hallelujah!" to get poor delusional David Fry to surrender. Law enforcement officers (except for Sheriff Palmer) have been the true patriots all along.
Am I the only one, hearing what Fry said, who thought that he could just as easily have been brainwashed into heading to Syria? Disaffected young guy, no education, no future, meets a persuasive zealot online. Leaves home, ready to put his life on the line for his new friends. Just like these kids going to join ISIS.
29
So they've either succumbed to "Federal tyranny" or admit that it's been no more than one big — deadly — game of cowboys and Indians, brandishing their guns and mugging for the cameras. I'm going with the latter.
5
“I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.”
There was a national vote about giving 318 million Americans OUR Public Lands in Oregon to some gun-toting guy from suburban Cincinnati who doesn't want to pay taxes? Hum, must have missed that one, though not bloody likely. Somewhere along the way his mummy must not have explained about sharing with others. Sorry, Patrick Henry this guy is not.
There was a national vote about giving 318 million Americans OUR Public Lands in Oregon to some gun-toting guy from suburban Cincinnati who doesn't want to pay taxes? Hum, must have missed that one, though not bloody likely. Somewhere along the way his mummy must not have explained about sharing with others. Sorry, Patrick Henry this guy is not.
22
Since when do traitors in the US get to walk away from declaring war on the US? Since WHEN do terrorists get to "go home"? Can you imagine the JUSTIFIED outrage if muslims had done what these traitors did? Why are they being treated any differently?
Not sure what the penalty is for impeding federal officers, but I believe it's around 20 years to life for what they did!
Just watch they will get a slap on the wrist and get to do it all again in a few months! And I bet they will regain access to weapons - something a black person would go straight back to jail for!
I HOPE I'm wrong, but I suspect these traitors will get off with a slap on the wrist! Utterly disgraceful if that happens
Not sure what the penalty is for impeding federal officers, but I believe it's around 20 years to life for what they did!
Just watch they will get a slap on the wrist and get to do it all again in a few months! And I bet they will regain access to weapons - something a black person would go straight back to jail for!
I HOPE I'm wrong, but I suspect these traitors will get off with a slap on the wrist! Utterly disgraceful if that happens
7
ATTENTION POSTMASTER:
Please forward all Malheur protestors mail to:
FEDERAL PENITENTIARY
FLORENCE COLORADO
Please forward all Malheur protestors mail to:
FEDERAL PENITENTIARY
FLORENCE COLORADO
14
I say, give these brave patriots a choice: serve out your terms in a US prison, or parachute into the fight against ISIS in Iraq. Any bets on which option they'd choose?
18
“I support his purpose,” the elder Mr. Fry said, adding that his son’s purpose was “trying to make a change, to save our country from the problems that we’ve got.” How many millennials do you know that stand up and are brave enough to do that?”
Seems the son doesn't fall far from the tree. As a Gen X'er, I spend all my days with Millennials in state government who are working hard on the valiant cause to grow our clean energy economy to stop the real ravages of their generation - climate change. It's those messages one should be sending, working to do good rather than taking up arms and advocating government overthrow by the few over the majority - particularly a government, who under this President, is trying to protect them with beneficial rules and regulations.
Seems the son doesn't fall far from the tree. As a Gen X'er, I spend all my days with Millennials in state government who are working hard on the valiant cause to grow our clean energy economy to stop the real ravages of their generation - climate change. It's those messages one should be sending, working to do good rather than taking up arms and advocating government overthrow by the few over the majority - particularly a government, who under this President, is trying to protect them with beneficial rules and regulations.
18
These individuals are all a bunch of: CLOWNS! With very limited education. People like this are everything what's wrong with the US. Get a job, pay taxes, get an education and u will live the American Dream; otherwise all of u clowns will be stuck in " Neutral"!
11
Many people have commented on the “I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.” quote. Yes it is pretty silly and underscores the reality of this situation - these folks were not very bright.
11
Hey, those American flags that you're waving? They're are kind of like the ones that George Washington carried when he marched out at the head of a militia army to crush the tax-opposing rebels of the Whiskey Rebellion. You still think you're in the right?
20
I agree. Return the land from Federal control to the original owners: the Native Americans.
5
Lunatic fringe at best...I'm glad they have made such a strong statement against the mandatory minimums for federal crimes much like the reforms our president has begun. They certainly didn't make their case against the role of public lands and the need for a multiple use mandate that includes environmental regulations. Glad that God finally intervened.
2
I don't often have words of praise for anything the Obama government does, but I have to say this was a job well done, ending this confrontation without further bloodshed. We did not need another Waco or Ruby Ridge, no matter how much progressives seemed to wish for it.
5
I am not proud of what the country's law enforcement has become; i.e., people who shoot unarmed blacks on camera and get clean away with it, but are completely without any ability to respond to armed thugs who live off welfare and take over federal property. For shame.
7
Law enforcement did respond, and appropriately in my view.
The real issue is that the Law should treat Black protestors with the same patience and reluctance to use force. We'd live in a far less violent world if they did.
The real issue is that the Law should treat Black protestors with the same patience and reluctance to use force. We'd live in a far less violent world if they did.
9
But they are white. White people are special (apparently). [Heavy sarcasm]
Now that Bundy and these four flag-waving fruitcakes are in jail it's time to get Bundy's baloney cows off our public lands and see if any wildlife is capable of returning to them.
Red O. Greene, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Red O. Greene, Albuquerque, NM, USA
20
For the people wondering why the Feds didn't "nip it in the butt" early on....I wondered why initially until you started reading what these people were posting on social media and viewing how they were destroying the property. Then you come to realize, the best thing to do is let it run it's course. Show the world how truly mental these people are so the next time they try something, the Feds will nip it fast and quick and regardless of the outcome, public opinion will be on their side. They are the fringe and to give them credence as being something more is laughable.
13
One of the supporters of the occupiers of the wildlife preserve held up a sign that said "I live in America, not Russia". If they any brains they would get down on their knees and thank God that they live in American and not Russia. If they lived in the Russia, 1 or 2 days after they occupied the preserve, Putin would have sent in a company of Russian special forces with tanks and leveled the place with them in it. Some people have no idea just how special it is to have been born and raised in America.
31
The Bundy bunch of course has not thought all of this out very well. I bet they wouldn't welcome "the people" showing up on this land to do whatever they liked for as long as they wished. The place might get so crowded with people and unpredictability that there wouldn't be enough room for cows.
"Hey wait a minute...!"
These characters don't get out enough, and they are a far sight from being as thankful as they ought to be. The one consolation is that they will proudly welcome the long prison sentences they deserve, because I'm told they hold deeply and thoughtfully to the convictions at the root of their action.
"Hey wait a minute...!"
"Hey wait a minute...!"
These characters don't get out enough, and they are a far sight from being as thankful as they ought to be. The one consolation is that they will proudly welcome the long prison sentences they deserve, because I'm told they hold deeply and thoughtfully to the convictions at the root of their action.
"Hey wait a minute...!"
4
" I only regret that I have but one carton of French Vanilla Creamer to give for my country."
- with apologies to Nathan Hale.
- with apologies to Nathan Hale.
6
I have a feeling that if Cliven had been arrested in 2014, this might never have happened. Nevertheless, I'm glad it ended peacefully (except for Finicum), and delighted that the whole lot--including Cliven--are in jail.
18
Had the feds appropriately responded to Cliven Bundy and his supporters when they staged an armed resistance in 2014, this "occupation" would never have happened. Allowing an armed insurgent militia to challenge federal agents with impunity is never a good idea.
12
Isn't it pathetic, all this time and money thrown away on a bunch of mental- and mentally ill- midgets who are nothing more than traitors to their country.
15
The best thing outcome of all of this is the arrest of Cliven Bundy. I am so pleased about this decisive moe.
I'm also mighty pleased that the refuge is now available for the returning birds. I can't wait to visit.
I listened to the refugee-occupiers' live talk, their strange and inchoate ramblings, and enjoyed the commentary of wits over at oregonlive. That was pretty fun.
Speaking of civil disobedience, it's time to demonstrate the Supreme Court's halting of President Obama's attempts to halt climate change. This is serious business. Five old men. I'm sick.
I'm also mighty pleased that the refuge is now available for the returning birds. I can't wait to visit.
I listened to the refugee-occupiers' live talk, their strange and inchoate ramblings, and enjoyed the commentary of wits over at oregonlive. That was pretty fun.
Speaking of civil disobedience, it's time to demonstrate the Supreme Court's halting of President Obama's attempts to halt climate change. This is serious business. Five old men. I'm sick.
21
A small group of people want to take land that belongs to all of the U.S. citizens and convert it to their private property and the right considers this to be patriotic.
23
There is something inherently troubling about the fact that it took 40 days for law enforcement, largely working out of range, to peacefully negotiate the removal of grown men who illegally occupied a federal facility armed to the hilt threatening federal officials and the general public when an African American child of 12 playing by himself in a park with a toy gun is gunned down within seconds of law enforcement's arrival.
22
The amount of government time and resources wasted must be in the hundreds of thousands! I want everyone of those protesters to sell their gun collections in order to pay for their foolishness.
20
I was a little hard on Mr. Fry earlier; now I've calmed down (and read some additional articles). Here you have a young man who was looking for answers. He somehow hooked up with this group of, in my opinion, misguided older men, who mentored him in an unhelpful (I'm being generous) way. Now his life appears to be ruined. If, indeed, he stated "I declare war against the federal government," as is mentioned in this newspaper's article, within earshot of federal officers, he's doomed. How can the federal government not prosecute him, even though he was most likely the least culpable among the occupiers? Because of his age, his emotional state, and the influence of those ostensibly older and wiser 'guiding' him, I would hope the federal government might extend judicial mercy to this young man. Perhaps, by this gesture, he might realize that we're not all as bad as he originally perceived. As for his 'mentors,' I have no such sympathy for them.
32
Do you believe you have a choice? Did not this Mr. Fry have a choice? If he as an adult doesn't understand right from wrong I could agree with your thesis. He is little less than an ignorant simple minded individual wanting to become a big man on campus only to discover he is little more than a fool taken for what he is.
Don't justify his decision, it is for him to carry and be accountable for.
Don't justify his decision, it is for him to carry and be accountable for.
3
When raging against the Government is the topic, it is hard not to think about Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dorn, and the Weathermen. Thankfully the Oregon occupiers, although armed, injured no one physically. No one was killed by bombs or bullets.
I am still puzzled as to how before undertaking this escapade the Bundy crowd thought this to be a reasonable action. What outcome were they expecting? ... After the 1968 convention few mobilized against the Government. Were the Bundys expecting a bigger result here?
I am still puzzled as to how before undertaking this escapade the Bundy crowd thought this to be a reasonable action. What outcome were they expecting? ... After the 1968 convention few mobilized against the Government. Were the Bundys expecting a bigger result here?
8
they expected th govt to fold, and they would march triumphantly into washington and take over power
thats when they usually wake up ...
thats when they usually wake up ...
2
I'm looking forward to public trials of these offenders. I'd like to see them get their day in court, and also open up all the issues to public scrutiny.
There are plenty of ways open to peaceful protest, even civil disobedience, to make a legitimate point. But trying to bully others into agreeing with you by means of armed takeover and destruction of the public commons, is not only cruel and unfair to others (especially the Native Americans whose sacred spots and artifacts were being protected there), but idiotic.
There are plenty of ways open to peaceful protest, even civil disobedience, to make a legitimate point. But trying to bully others into agreeing with you by means of armed takeover and destruction of the public commons, is not only cruel and unfair to others (especially the Native Americans whose sacred spots and artifacts were being protected there), but idiotic.
13
"Court" is the forum for a finder-of-fact to determine if these people broke the law. It is not a forum for them to air their grievances. "Please, sir, just answer the question. Your Honor, will you please direct the witness to answer the question."
Our court system is not a political platform. And we must not let it be hijacked by these scoundrels. Remember the Chicago 7!
Our court system is not a political platform. And we must not let it be hijacked by these scoundrels. Remember the Chicago 7!
5
Just an aside, but if anyone wants to get a feel for what the West looked like in the 19th Century, head east out of Bend, OR on Highway 20, hang a right at US 395, then head back to Bend on Highway 31 (31 parallels the route of the 1843 Fremont expedition) and US 97. Make sure you have plenty of gas (there's a reason it's called the Oregon Outback). You may also get a little insight into why people out there feel the way they do.
1
Please be more specific. How exactly do "people out there feel the way they do?" What is it exactly that they feel?
5
You could take a little detour to Christmas Valley and see how people live, and you might ask some locals whether they think the economy and government (state or federal) is working for them. You could take a look at the condition of the schools. That's pretty revealing. And you could ask them about their frustrations in dealing with federal land managers. Now I am not an advocate of turning public lands over to local or state government and certainly not selling them off to private interests. But federal officials can be pretty condescending towards locals.
The irony of Thomas Wagner waving an American flag should not be lost seeing that he has been, essentially, at war with his own country. May he be held to full account for his tome-wasting, treasure draining, rogue occupation of the people's land.
Sarah Palin must be muttering something ripe. We wouldn't understand, of course, because she speaks in an alien language unique only to herself.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Sarah Palin must be muttering something ripe. We wouldn't understand, of course, because she speaks in an alien language unique only to herself.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
7
Good riddance to the trespassers. It irritates me that they're waving those flags around, and the fact that some are upside down is even worse. They are not patriotic; they are the antithesis of patriotic. Those of us who ARE patriots try to follow the law, do the right things for our country and community (not just for ourselves), and we don't find ourselves in trouble with the law or angry with our government. We pay our taxes, vote in every election, and we tend NOT to whine and complain if we don't get our way. We're patriotic because we are loyal, supportive and grateful to our nation.
22
Is'nt it amazing that it takes 40 days for the Feds and other authorities to take out felons resisting arrest for illegal occupation of Federal land? And it takes just two minutes to kill a 12 year old, playing with a toy gun! Does that mean only real felons have rights and have to be handled with care or that the innocent, helpless child has no rights at all and can be gunned down without any justification? We pride ourselves with our system of justice. Yes, justice which is not blind!
13
In Cleveland, it was 2 seconds, not 2 minutes.
4
That's because these gun toters are white.
I absolutely understand how you feel. But, maybe the difference is that this action was lead by the FBI and the horrible murder of Tamir Rice was by local police.
I don't think these thugs are remotely patriotic. I am, however, very glad it ended peacefully.
12
Law enforcement handled this well. Sorry there was loss of life, that is never a good thing. Glad to see Cliven finally under arrest, should have happened in 2014.
20
I think an interesting question to put forth to the remaining Presidential candidates during any of the debates is "How would have you resolved this situation quicker?"
5
Oh, that's a great suggestion!
Far too much press and air time was given to these miltant troglodytes. This will offer encouragement for the far too many just like them when the next iteration occurs.
10
This incident is what happens when people live in an informational echo chamber.
This is starting to look like a bigger and bigger problem for this country. What do we do about this?
This is starting to look like a bigger and bigger problem for this country. What do we do about this?
24
The property claimed by these so-called 'ranchers" was not ranch land, it was a federal wildlife sanctuary. That kind of property is paid for by tax-payers and is intended to be used by wildlife, not by people who simply want to have the free property of their own choosing wherever they want to act like 'Ranchers."
They ought to pay heavily for whatever damages to land and water resources have resulted in addition to the cost of all the law enforcement used to rein in the self-important thieves.
It must be time now to start treating old mens' delusions of grandeur.
They ought to pay heavily for whatever damages to land and water resources have resulted in addition to the cost of all the law enforcement used to rein in the self-important thieves.
It must be time now to start treating old mens' delusions of grandeur.
25
I live in southern Utah, not that far from the Bundy ranch. I support the U. S. government. I'm grateful that the government has finally done something about Cliven Bundy arrogantly breaking the law and abusing property that belongs to all of us.
And, while it took far too long to do something about Cliven Bundy, I think that the authorities handled the standoff very well. The authorities evidently planned patiently and took action when the chance of a violent confrontation was as small as possible ... but due to LaVoy Finicum's decision ... not zero.
But the crisis is not over. Utah Congressmen Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz are trying to steal U.S. Government property and hand it over to extraction industries. The Oregon militants were shortsighted and stupid. Bishop and Chaffetz are not. As the Woody Guthrie song goes, "Some will rob you with a six gun. Some with a fountain pen."
And, while it took far too long to do something about Cliven Bundy, I think that the authorities handled the standoff very well. The authorities evidently planned patiently and took action when the chance of a violent confrontation was as small as possible ... but due to LaVoy Finicum's decision ... not zero.
But the crisis is not over. Utah Congressmen Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz are trying to steal U.S. Government property and hand it over to extraction industries. The Oregon militants were shortsighted and stupid. Bishop and Chaffetz are not. As the Woody Guthrie song goes, "Some will rob you with a six gun. Some with a fountain pen."
36
Funny funny how the Weathermen or the Weatherunderground considered themselves revolutionaries. They bombed buildings and attemlted to kill police officers. But, many people supported them. Many influential people. In fact, their leadership can be found openly teaching at colleges, writing books and hosting parties for future presidents (Bill Ayers).
I guess it all comes down to your politics and who you support.
The Weathermen were liberal in orientation and the current group are not. I guess that's all there it to it.
I guess it all comes down to your politics and who you support.
The Weathermen were liberal in orientation and the current group are not. I guess that's all there it to it.
2
Having been following this I don't know if it is sad or fitting that the last man standing is a clearly mentally ill man from Ohio who could not even articulate the "cause." It highlights one perspective I've pondered which is this "cause" isn't about liberty it is about economic disenfranchisement. A 100+ years ago one family could possibly make it on a 1/4 of a section (160 acres) which is the size of the Bundy "ranch." He has 13 kids, scores of grandkids, all of whom want smart phones and late model pickup trucks. A few dozen head of cattle isn't going to cut it. So for them, America has changed, their rights have changed, they aren't "free" like they used to be. Well, stuff ain't free that is for sure. I have to think that if Bundy was sitting on 100,000 acres of irrigated ranch land we would have never heard of him.
12
Cliven Bundy has 160 acres in the desert. Operative there being "desert". If he wants to raise 300+ head of cattle he should have sold this quarter section and purchased a ranch somewhere with ample precipitation and forage. Plus with 13 children and 15 exemptions, he has probably paid very little in income taxes. A welfare queen indeed.
Fundamentalist Mormon Mafia.
Fundamentalist Mormon Mafia.
7
The single fact remains that the U.S. Government (Federal, state, local) in general has far too much control in the realm of people's personal and family lives. It's not as bad as East Germany or Soviet Russia, or Communist China, but it is slowly creeping that way. I commend these protesters for taking a stand of sorts. But I am also happy no one else lost their life.
2
I find the government is useful in keeping corporations from having too much control over my life.
And I get to vote for representatives to the government. How do you propose I vote against corporate predations and despoliation?
And I get to vote for representatives to the government. How do you propose I vote against corporate predations and despoliation?
12
Please elaborate on what control the Government has in the realm of people's personal and family lives. You made the statement with no examples to back up your single fact.
5
I for one am very happy that the federal government has control over so much of the land in the West. Were it given or sold to the states, they would turn around around and give it or sell it to their contributors. Corruption is rampant in state government out here.
"No Trespassing" signs would sprout up all over the place, and we, the former owners, would be locked out. No more hiking, no more rafting, photography, birding, no more watersheds providing clean water for drinking, salmon, and agriculture, you name it.
Think about it before you comment further.
"No Trespassing" signs would sprout up all over the place, and we, the former owners, would be locked out. No more hiking, no more rafting, photography, birding, no more watersheds providing clean water for drinking, salmon, and agriculture, you name it.
Think about it before you comment further.
8
The occupiers of the refuge were not local ranchers protesting local federal land management. They were all outsiders, who decided to bring their "patriot" agenda to Harney County. And they aren't ranchers either. If you read the information about these folks, most are unemployed, and many had criminal records. During the press conference given after the end of the occupation, I was heartened to hear the FBI Agent in Charge state that occupation of federal property by armed protesters would not be tolerated. Period. Cliven Bundy is also now under arrest - as he should have been in 2014. MIchele Fiore may have helped diffuse the situation, but she is a friend of the Bundy family, and supported this action. As Sheriff Dave Ward stated, people in the area have been torn apart, but now they need to get off Facebook and sit down and work out their differences - and the outsiders stirring up trouble for their own agenda need to head out. The people of Harney County are fortunate to have elected officials such as Steve Grasty and Dave Ward serving their community. I hope they appreciate them.
26
Thank you, your comment hits several nails squarely on the head.
In particular, Harney County Judge Steve Grasty and Sheriff Dave Ward deserve commendation for their steadfast courage and service to their community. The people of Burns and Hines, Oregon, do seem to recognize this, and rallied to their support in the face of an armed and belligerent invasion by outsiders.
In particular, Harney County Judge Steve Grasty and Sheriff Dave Ward deserve commendation for their steadfast courage and service to their community. The people of Burns and Hines, Oregon, do seem to recognize this, and rallied to their support in the face of an armed and belligerent invasion by outsiders.
10
Just hoping to be able to make my annual birding trip down to Harney County and be able to show some support to the community.
2
The Frys, both Jr. and Sr., seem to want to equate the armed take over of an otherwise peaceful and unarmed structure with something on the scale of John Brown and Harper's Ferry; i.e., as if the dangers and potential responses were even remotely the same. While Brown -questionably sane- and his sons could rightly expect death in their undertaking, Fry Jr., full of "The X-Files" every "B" film ever made, and the daily news-byte, sought his 15 minutes of fame.
Give the man his marijuana, and may we never hear of or from him again.
Give the man his marijuana, and may we never hear of or from him again.
12
The protestors consistently call for the return of all Federal lands to the "people", thinking, I suppose, that they would be the ones who get the land once it is returned. I don't suppose it crosses their minds that once the lands are out of Federal control it would fall into the open real estate market where the best pieces would be grabbed by the very wealthy, and the rest left to languish unsold, driving down the price of privately held real estate. It is a stupid dream of small minded people. Their revolution is silly and pointless, unless you happen to be a ranch grazing your herd for free on Federal property.
34
I am reminded of an observation that circulated about Oliver North when he was tried for illegal gun-running and pleaded "patriotism" drove him to do it.
"Ollie North wrapped himself in the American flag in order to spit on the Constitution" These sad pretend cowboys are the same and worse. May they be imprisoned for their crimes. And in all their blustering about "their" land being taken by the BLM, they remain curiously and ignorantly silent about Indians and that legacy, to the point of despoiling artifacts and objects of the tribes who really arrived first.
"Ollie North wrapped himself in the American flag in order to spit on the Constitution" These sad pretend cowboys are the same and worse. May they be imprisoned for their crimes. And in all their blustering about "their" land being taken by the BLM, they remain curiously and ignorantly silent about Indians and that legacy, to the point of despoiling artifacts and objects of the tribes who really arrived first.
30
Good news! Now charge them to the fullest extent possible and lock em up. As part of their sentence perhaps they could be required to complete a civics course, in order that they might appreciate how a democracy works.
21
The Feds need to realize they need to nip this craziness in the bud. They haven't grasped how insane these people are and that they will only behave when a strong hand is used- with force probably and with a thousand or so National Guard troops to show them who's in charge. Jail time is called for for these thugs, and i'm afraid that the liberal bunch of Federal judges in Portland will let them off again, without as much as a finger waving gesture. We've seen it already by the release of several trespassing insurrectionists a couple of weeks ago. The Feds have given them more than an inch over the last 20 years and they've taken more than a mile in return. Embolden by weak, scared Federal officials and Presidents. Sorry, but if force is the only way to stop this thuggery then it needs to be done.
3
If these men had been unarmed African Americans or Hispanics, they would have been shot dead long ago by law officers. But they are white men with guns and so they have been treated with kid gloves. They have been allowed to flaunt the law for months. The disparities in our justice system are not in keeping with our best values. The system needs to change.
12
Mr. Fry believes that taxpayer money is going to fund abortions and that the federal government is not only suppressing information about UFOs but also chemically castrating its citizens. This guy's gotta be a Ted Cruz supporter.
18
"Cliven Bundy became a national figure in 2014, after federal officials tried to confiscate his cattle because he had refused for more than two decades to pay fees to the federal government for grazing his cattle on federal land. "
Shame on the Feds for not dealing with this situation for 20 years, and thereby letting it get out of hand. I suggest that if they had done their job 20 years ago we wouldn't have to be dealing with self-righteous Welfare Cowboys now.
Shame on the Feds for not dealing with this situation for 20 years, and thereby letting it get out of hand. I suggest that if they had done their job 20 years ago we wouldn't have to be dealing with self-righteous Welfare Cowboys now.
12
Actually, the government had acted against Bundy long before. Bundy had numerous court judgments against him. It was the attempt to enforce those judgments that led to the standoff in 2014. The government could have precipitated a bloody shootout if it wanted. I'm glad it didn't.
6
This siege by criminals that held a tiny, rural community at bay has ended without further loss of life or property and that is to be commended. But, it is a mystery to many, including me, why this was allowed to persist for so long without the authorities taking the actions they did much sooner. I know there are likely to be good reasons for the delay in acting, but I think the citizens of Burns and Malhuer County are entitled to an explanation because the disruption and distrust and criminality allowed to go unpunished brought this gentle town to a standstill.
I don't suppose there was any planning or intent but the siege began to end 40 days and 40 nights after it commenced, and was largely concluded on Ash Wednesday. I can't help but wonder if there the FBI was making a point in a secular way, of course.
I don't suppose there was any planning or intent but the siege began to end 40 days and 40 nights after it commenced, and was largely concluded on Ash Wednesday. I can't help but wonder if there the FBI was making a point in a secular way, of course.
If Cliven thought that he had a right to the land and didn't think $1.28 per head per month was fair then why didn't he just pay property taxes on the thousands of acres he was claiming as his own. I am sure the county he lived in would have been happy to get the money.
26
Bundy rails against the grazing fees on federal lands, and rails against the Federal Government owning so much land in the West. But it would be interesting, and I believe ultimately tragic, to see what would happen to grazing fees and to the land itself if it was all auctioned off to the highest bidders -- or in Bundy-speak, "Returned to the people."
35
Do you recall when a number of years ago developers wanted the Federal Gov to allow development in the national parks? Fortunately sane people stopped that in its tracks. Can you see the golden arches over Yosemite?
1
This sorry episode is ample evidence of the importance to all of us of living in a country where there is the rule of law. These morons were extended very opportunity to come home to common sense. It is time to put all of them in the slammer for a very long time.
31
Throughout this whole rather Fargoesque display of "Militiamen's Last Stand", I've been wondering how well regulated or even organized these freedom fighting dudes actually are. Not too many of them actually heeded the Bundy's call to join in their holy cause to defend the constitution. But then, how many buddies really wanted to end up in wood chippers, or gunned to death in a ditch for anything less than a truly noble cause.
But is there really one over arching banner under which these angry white men will sally forth in a well regulated militia? Or are they all more or less like the Bundys with agendas that have more to do with their self inflicted miserable lot in life?
I grew up in northern Alberta's red necked country. I've heard everything men like these say in the comfort of their kitchens or barrooms, where bouyed by liquor and bolstered by the guns they keep, they hold forth; on the evil gubmint, taxes, regulation, impingement on their freedoms, anything and everyone that has kept them from becoming the men they've always wanted to be.
True. some seemed to have deeper ideological foundations, like the high brow Nazis that moved to Alberta in the early eighties, but most of them did seem like the characters in Fargo, inept, unable to handle change, and unwilling to even try.
Is there really an organized movement, a well regulated militia that is ready to go to war against its own government or is what we saw in Oregon pretty much it?
But is there really one over arching banner under which these angry white men will sally forth in a well regulated militia? Or are they all more or less like the Bundys with agendas that have more to do with their self inflicted miserable lot in life?
I grew up in northern Alberta's red necked country. I've heard everything men like these say in the comfort of their kitchens or barrooms, where bouyed by liquor and bolstered by the guns they keep, they hold forth; on the evil gubmint, taxes, regulation, impingement on their freedoms, anything and everyone that has kept them from becoming the men they've always wanted to be.
True. some seemed to have deeper ideological foundations, like the high brow Nazis that moved to Alberta in the early eighties, but most of them did seem like the characters in Fargo, inept, unable to handle change, and unwilling to even try.
Is there really an organized movement, a well regulated militia that is ready to go to war against its own government or is what we saw in Oregon pretty much it?
22
The most disturbing thing is that so much attention has been paid to this snall handful of wholly unremarkable, largely uneducated and inarticulate overgrown children. They do not merit the time, attention and resources that have been devoted to their 'protest,' which has never amounted to anything more than anti-social ranting.
Take David Fry, a 27 year old slacker who still lives with mommy and daddy outside of Cincinnati, Ohio and who spends his time cruising White power web sites, when he isn't in run-ins with local law enforcement for petty crimes and bizarre behavior. He is no more a 'rancher' than Ammon Bundy, who runs a truck repair shop in Arizona, funded with a federally subsidized half million dollar loan. Sean Anderson is an untutored 47 year old, an essentially unemployable alcoholic from Idaho with a history of violence against his own family. His second wife works at a gas station. Jeff Banda is an occasional construction laborer with no special training or knowledge. The list of brilliant minds involved here could go on.
Not one of these unschooled people has any wisdom to impart about land use, Constitutional law, religion, politics, economics or any such topic; and not one merits a place at the podium. Each should be treated like any violent criminal: charged, tried, convicted, imprisoned.
For heavens sake, ignore them - don't make celebrities of them. They are neither heroes nor patriots; and they are far too pedestrian and banal to warrant infamy.
Take David Fry, a 27 year old slacker who still lives with mommy and daddy outside of Cincinnati, Ohio and who spends his time cruising White power web sites, when he isn't in run-ins with local law enforcement for petty crimes and bizarre behavior. He is no more a 'rancher' than Ammon Bundy, who runs a truck repair shop in Arizona, funded with a federally subsidized half million dollar loan. Sean Anderson is an untutored 47 year old, an essentially unemployable alcoholic from Idaho with a history of violence against his own family. His second wife works at a gas station. Jeff Banda is an occasional construction laborer with no special training or knowledge. The list of brilliant minds involved here could go on.
Not one of these unschooled people has any wisdom to impart about land use, Constitutional law, religion, politics, economics or any such topic; and not one merits a place at the podium. Each should be treated like any violent criminal: charged, tried, convicted, imprisoned.
For heavens sake, ignore them - don't make celebrities of them. They are neither heroes nor patriots; and they are far too pedestrian and banal to warrant infamy.
93
I think they are shocked to find out that just being white doesn't mean a comfortable living anymore.
But instead of trying to return (impossibly) to a time when that was the case, why not make common cause with poor people of color who have never had it easy, but with whom they could join forces to make change for everyone?
But instead of trying to return (impossibly) to a time when that was the case, why not make common cause with poor people of color who have never had it easy, but with whom they could join forces to make change for everyone?
4
No, I think it's important that everybody sees just how much damage to our Country the republican party is creating by vocalizing this propaganda on every airwave and tv channel they own.
3
Hear, hear!
3
“How many millennials do you know that stand up and are brave enough to do that?” Millions and millions are brave enough to go into debt, get an education, and become a contributing member of a functioning democracy. Now if he said "crazy", he'd have a point.
36
To say nothing of the under-appreciated millennials who served and serve in all the branches of the US military, fought in our misguided war in Iraq, only to be largely forgotten once they become veterans.
12
Mr. Fry openly and repeatedly declared war on the United States. So too did Osama Bin Laden. Mr. Fry, presumably a U.S. citizen, should be charged and tried for treason, along with the many other crimes he's committed
37
And he'd better hope that society is enlightened enough not to give him the death penalty. But I would like to see him kept away from the rest of us long enough to really think about what he did. Give him access to all the books and education he needs, just keep him away from the rest of us, please!
After the genocide of 100,000 million indigenous people, three hundred military interventions since 1945, and the continued ethnocide of blacks, where did David Fry imagine he was living, anyway? Only 1,000 years of British genocide and slaughter beats what happened in North America. He sounds supremely ignorant, no thanks to his family I'm sure, of the nation's history and that the violence and racism have changed since 1492 with the coming of European predators to the shores of North America..
16
No, the Federal government is not the land owner as the reporter(s) keep informing us. I am the land owner. My sister in St. Louis is the owner. My brother in San Diago, my son in Portland, my daughters in Arizona and Michigan are the owners. We and the rest of you pay the Federal government to manage it for us. And in general, we all pretty much approve of their management decisions. As the song says, this is my land, this is our land.
55
Maybe it is just a coincidence, but we have Ted Bundy, McGeorge Bundy, Al Bundy, and now these guys. I'd say more Al trying to be McGeorge, but could have become Ted.
Can anyone spell Meshuganahs?
Can anyone spell Meshuganahs?
17
Here's hoping if they're Married, it's With as few Children as possible. *plays Sinatra*
2
These guys ought to be sentenced purely for occupying part of our minds. The loss of productivity we've all sacrificed on behalf of their "newsworthiness" for the last 40 days is worth is absurd.
22
I honestly wonder if the law that says a death during the commission of a crime is the fault of all involved will be applied?
Seems to me even though Mr. Finnicum drove the truck into the snowbank that stopped him trying to run the barricade then did what he did to get himself shot that the people riding with him and the men in the other vehicle as well as those who stayed behind to hold the fort, all are equally guilty in his death since they were all willing participants in this crime.
Seems to me even though Mr. Finnicum drove the truck into the snowbank that stopped him trying to run the barricade then did what he did to get himself shot that the people riding with him and the men in the other vehicle as well as those who stayed behind to hold the fort, all are equally guilty in his death since they were all willing participants in this crime.
18
This would only be true if the people involved were not white.
1
The doctrine of "felony murder" exists in Oregon law, but the predicate crimes to support the charge may not have been committed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Oregon)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Oregon)
The felony murder rule doesn't apply in Oregon if the deceased is one of the participants in the crime, which Mr. Finicum was.
I don't know WHAT made them think they could take on United States law enforcement organizations, using illegal action to boot. Lucky for them, they encountered a patient and understanding group of law enforcement professionals. It could have been a much uglier ending if not for that.
22
Michelle Fiore will use this as an angle to be Trump or Cruz'z running mate.
She will try to remain in the news supporting these criminals for as long as possible. Trump / Fiore 2016!
She will try to remain in the news supporting these criminals for as long as possible. Trump / Fiore 2016!
9
So one of the supporters who drives from afar to witness the day's events is a 32 year old unemployed security guard in full military dress, including a helmet. Dude - get a job! I suspect that many supporters of these criminals fall into that growing category of angry young men with no valuable job skills and employment prospects that offer little likelihood of ever seeing a wage at or over $15 an hour. Angry and getting angrier as their economic status gets buried deeper and deeper. Add a cornucopia of guns and military fatigues to the mix and you have a recipe for delusional domestic terrorism.
57
They believe the country has failed to uphold their Rights. Yet, their Right to be an uneducated, unskilled, unemployable malcontent has been fully supported and finally come to fruition!
5
These right wing militants and their supporters have successfully converted the words patriot, freedom, and liberty to borderline obscenities. They have disgraced the American Flag. In my view they are terrorists as well as traitors. It is my fervent hope that the Department of Justice will deal with them as the law demands.
36
I wish this would go away. I can already picture Trump wanting Fiore as his running mate to "balance" his ticket with her "people skills".
6
Or maybe Michelle Bachmann?
How about a kickstarter campaign to raise funds for all of them for a one-way ticket to any country in the world they think is better and has better ways of acomplishing change. Our democracy is far from perfect and certainly has challenges, but as frustrating as it is, it is the best I can see.
20
David Fry appears to be both mentally and morally ill. That his father supports his "purpose" explains the nurture part of it, but neither man, especially the son, is "OK." Hopefully the prison he'll reside in over the next several years can treat his illnesses. Hopefully....
32
"One woman held a sign saying, 'I live in America, not Russia.'" She might want to try staging an armed occupation of buildings owned by the Russian government, and see what happens. Just for purposes of comparison.
41
If they were all black this would have been over a long time ago.
7
I just don't get the American flags. If they hate our government, why wrap yourself in its symbol? What unites the stars on that flag is the Federal government. Otherwise we're just a random collection of states. Why not wave your Oregon flag instead?
20
Please remember, very few of these people are from Oregon. The last four occupiers were from Ohio, Michigan, Idaho, and Nevada. Most of the so-called militia members who showed up to support them were from other states.
The flag-waver in the photo, described as being from Christmas Valley, Ore., who had a Confederate flag on his bumper, is one of the very few sympathizers who can claim Oregon residency. The bearded gentleman leaning on the jeep in front of him seems to be from out-of-state, or at least his vehicle is. Oregon requires license plates on the front as well as on the back bumper.
The flag-waver in the photo, described as being from Christmas Valley, Ore., who had a Confederate flag on his bumper, is one of the very few sympathizers who can claim Oregon residency. The bearded gentleman leaning on the jeep in front of him seems to be from out-of-state, or at least his vehicle is. Oregon requires license plates on the front as well as on the back bumper.
3
Regardless of their state of origin, they are not supporters of the United States of America, or they wouldn't consider our government the enemy.
@karystrance - none of these armed militants actually live in Oregon; they're from Nevada. But I agree that it is ludicrous for a bunch of crazies to be wrapped in the flag of the country that they have declared war upon.
1
Let's see if the rich in this country who pay for campaigns are really interested in "Freedom" or their own interests................pay the best lawyers in this nation to represent these prisoners. That will show us you really do care about freedom and the lawyers will as well.
Bill them for the cost of what tax payer money they squandered in their idiotic quest.
18
I applaud the FBI and other law enforcement for their patience and skill in resolving this with minimal loss of life. I hope local and state police will think about this example the next time they face someone who appears mentally ill, angry, or potentially armed.
21
Now throw them in jail.
15
They will now be occupying a different federal facility.
45
I think we should take a close look at Ms. Foote and her involvement. I am glad that Cliven was held accountable. This bunch of "protestors" are riddled with psychiatric symptoms.
20
i second that- and i don't mean 2nd amendment. A perfect example on why mentally ill people should be banned form owning/carrying firearms.
14
Shrewd also, that the FBI took the elder Bundy into custody at the airport--coming off a plane, he wouldn't be carrying his gun.
43
also that here weren't dozens of his brainless armed followers at the airport, unlike the 2014 Nevada showdown.
20
Please let this be the last artlcle about these people.
They crave the attention.
They crave the attention.
16
Their 15 minutes of fame is over.
8
Probably ran out of beer.
14
Wow, talk about somebody being mentally ill. These characters are in serious need of long term psychiatric treatment. They've tossed reality and rationality out the window.
15
No, they are not mentally ill. Stupid and highly suggestible, sure, but to suggest these people are mentally ill is a slap in the face to everyone who struggles with mental illness and to the medical professionals who treat them.
David Fry, for example, spent the last few hours of his stand off parroting normal right wing hate radio talking points. For-profit media professionals put this stuff on the air 24/7. Call it crazy, call it surreal and irrational, but it is not mental illness.
David Fry, for example, spent the last few hours of his stand off parroting normal right wing hate radio talking points. For-profit media professionals put this stuff on the air 24/7. Call it crazy, call it surreal and irrational, but it is not mental illness.
8
Go directly to jail, do not pass go.. They should also pay what it cost the taxpayers for this little tea party deal.....
18
Just like our founding Revolution, there will always be Revolutionaries and Tories.
Thank God this time only one person was killed.
Thank God this time only one person was killed.
I really want the Federal and State and local governments to prosecute all of these people to the full extent of all laws that were broken.
21
The American people need to take seriously the attempts to take over their lands out here in the West. These armed yahoos are not the real culprits here. The state of Utah is spending millions of our state tax dollars to foist a land grab on the rest of you. Please inform yourselves about the issues and join us in resisting this effort.
15
Who bankrolls all of this nonsense? Where do the lawyers come from? How much of the money that supports this lawlessness comes in the form of "Tax-Deductible Contributions? You know, the rightwing groups that the IRS targeted? It would be hard to accept the fact that the taxpayers are somehow subsidizing this rabble.
19
Most of them, I imagine, will end up being represented by Federal Defenders. At taxpayers' expense, of course. But they do have a 6th Amendment right to legal council.
6
Guessing these are the same folks who spouted "love it or leave it" to many anti-war protesters. So what will it be?
23
Unfortunately, for them, they are no longer free to leave.
“I declare war against the federal government." Isn't that called treason? These "Christian" terrorists should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Good job by the FBI and other law enforcement in shutting this down with only one death. Killing more would have led to a situation like the one after Waco.
Many right-wing politicians think that the Second Amendment, as recreated by the right-wing, activist Supreme Court, is designed to protect citizens from the government. They speak of "Second Amendment remedies." They encourage actions like what happened in Oregon with their nonsense, and they have a fairly large following in the Republican Party.
Good job by the FBI and other law enforcement in shutting this down with only one death. Killing more would have led to a situation like the one after Waco.
Many right-wing politicians think that the Second Amendment, as recreated by the right-wing, activist Supreme Court, is designed to protect citizens from the government. They speak of "Second Amendment remedies." They encourage actions like what happened in Oregon with their nonsense, and they have a fairly large following in the Republican Party.
18
Did I miss something? Where in the article did it discuss what happens next for these "people" (I use the term loosely)?
Also, they are flying a couple of the flags upside down, in contravention of accepted flag use. The least of their sins I suppose.
"(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property."
Also, they are flying a couple of the flags upside down, in contravention of accepted flag use. The least of their sins I suppose.
"(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property."
3
Violence and guns are the first alternative of the minority lunatic fringe who don't get their way. Try taking a step back, get educated on the issues and then use the political power of the vote to make yourself heard...unless you are unwilling to listen to the other side.
12
KrisseAnn Hall told David Fry on the phone that voting doesn't matter. They're advocating an interpretation of the Constitution that fits their worldview not what a reasonable person reading the constitution would interpret. Kind of like picking biblical verses out of context to support a worldview.
9
and so the drama ends, with a whimper.
6
America now knows who the armed home-grown dangerous domestic terrorists are: So-called "Patriots".
New rule:
Real activists don't bring guns.
New rule:
Real activists don't bring guns.
11
Weird. I really thought these guys were going to win.
4
Professor Anthony C. Sutton explained a lot about that. But there are plenty of resources for those who don't understand what's going on and this is just the beginning. If people were still having the faith in Christianism, they would know about Garabandal, Fatima, la Salette and so on, and they would not waste their time to demonstrate in my opinion.
These people were not patriots. They were terrorists attempting to overthrow the federal government. Justice should be swift and harsh.
Moreover, do they nut jobs really believe they have the power to overthrow the government. They have their guns, But the feds have attack helicopters, fighter jets, nuclear bombs, etc.
As it has been mentioned by many observers, if these criminals were Black, Mexican, or even Muslim, this would have ended weeks ago. I guess this is another example of White privilege.
Thus, the new math is:
Black men with guns = thugs
Muslim men with guns = terrorists
White men with guns advocating the overthrow of the federal government = patriots.
The Feds should ship them to Gitmo or a CIA overseas black site. An textbook example should be made of them. E.g, no pleading down the charges, a minimum of 50 years in the federal supermax prison in Colorado.
Moreover, do they nut jobs really believe they have the power to overthrow the government. They have their guns, But the feds have attack helicopters, fighter jets, nuclear bombs, etc.
As it has been mentioned by many observers, if these criminals were Black, Mexican, or even Muslim, this would have ended weeks ago. I guess this is another example of White privilege.
Thus, the new math is:
Black men with guns = thugs
Muslim men with guns = terrorists
White men with guns advocating the overthrow of the federal government = patriots.
The Feds should ship them to Gitmo or a CIA overseas black site. An textbook example should be made of them. E.g, no pleading down the charges, a minimum of 50 years in the federal supermax prison in Colorado.
22
The alternative universe these people inhabit is revealed, over and over.
9
Speaking as an Oregonian, this whole invasion is anti-American no matter how many flags are waved. I understand this land was purchased by the federal government at higher than market value prices when previous landowners who took it from the natives could not make a go of it during the depression. Cattle ranching through out much of the arid west is already subsidized (welfare) by allowing ranchers to feed on public lands at very little cost. The economics of ranching is poor when little care is taken of the land and free trade allows imported beef. Demanding land that belongs to all of us is just another demand for more welfare. What about everyone else who had to change jobs because of free trade?
The wildlife refuge is important to the preservation of migratory birds. It is also important to the public, those that like birds and wildlife. I have been to this refuge many times and we cannot afford to see it destroyed. Thank you law enforcement (federal and state) for returning the land to the people.
The wildlife refuge is important to the preservation of migratory birds. It is also important to the public, those that like birds and wildlife. I have been to this refuge many times and we cannot afford to see it destroyed. Thank you law enforcement (federal and state) for returning the land to the people.
338
The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge was not purchased from private landowners. It has been continuously in federal ownership ever since Oregon became a US territory in the 19th century, just like most of the state's national forests, national monuments and national parks.
5
If only the students shot by troops at Kent State had been offered such endless forbearance & patience for their unarmed protest against government.
This event was a huge win for the 'Militia movement', and a vindication of their propaganda that an obsession with firearms gives them a fighting chance of getting their way against armed enforcement.
There will be a rematch. These people aren't done claiming land that isn't theirs, pretending to be entrepreneurs while not paying the costs of actually doing business, and pretending they are the real americans while the inner-city is populated with welfare queens.
This 'protest' proves that however the 2nd amendment laws shake out or evolve, American Militias are armed cults of dangerous paramilitary firearms-fanatics and need to be monitored & disarmed.
This event was a huge win for the 'Militia movement', and a vindication of their propaganda that an obsession with firearms gives them a fighting chance of getting their way against armed enforcement.
There will be a rematch. These people aren't done claiming land that isn't theirs, pretending to be entrepreneurs while not paying the costs of actually doing business, and pretending they are the real americans while the inner-city is populated with welfare queens.
This 'protest' proves that however the 2nd amendment laws shake out or evolve, American Militias are armed cults of dangerous paramilitary firearms-fanatics and need to be monitored & disarmed.
268
Shut down the New York Times Presses and Servers for acting in the interests of "Freedom of the Press".....................
Pretty absurd huh?
So are you.
Pretty absurd huh?
So are you.
Yes, presumably their firearms will be confiscated, and they will be barred from legal purchase of firearms in the future....
11
Not a win for the militias, although I agree with much else that you wrote. It would onlyt have been a win for the militias if it had ended in a bloodbath, crating additional 'martyrs.'
1
I feel sorry for David Fry. His delusional rant seems to betray his uninformed and/or unwell mental state. Fueling his delusions are his equally misguided partners. Sadly for the country, what afflicts them is spreading throughout the US, and is becoming "mainstream." Look no further than the GOP primary for evidence.
22
I agree, they are clearly unhinged and suffer from paranoid delusions. The most insane part, however has to do with the laws of the land that let people like that carry powerful weapons legally and openly. Imagine how this would have been handled if the "occupiers" had been weaponless. Would have been over the next day.
16
i was worried that nutter on the phone with him was going to drive him over the edge - talk about a self promoting nobody! That KrisAnne Hall broad was clearly not the person to be talking to a suicidal young man. At one point she called him a coward and toward the end sounded pisitively bored ... but wooud not put down the phone, her bible or her chance at a national spotlight. shameless, dangerous (in this circumstance) lady
4
This is what a steady diet of Fox News, Rush
Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck will do to you!
Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck will do to you!
11
Got to give the police credit - they avoided the craziness of that last run-in with old Cliven and his band of armed loons. They just waited at the airport in Oregon with a butterfly net and a million dollar fine. Smart!
35
Will Charles and David send them lawyers to help with their defense, or leave them out to dry?
11
These characters and a lot of their ilk forget that the people of the United States of America are the owners of the public lands in the country. I'm one of them, so the Government is protecting my interest in the public lands from pirates. The protestors probably don't know, or conveniently forget, that the original patent for land parcels owned by millions of people was given by the Government of the United States to each and every early farmer, homesteader and yes, cattle rancher, that satisfied the requirements for obtaining that patent. I won't bother to go into the title limitations on land ownership, except to say that there are 4 conditions attached to that land patent, one of which is the condition where land ownership reverts to the Government.
15
Here is a great dialogue from the 1991 movie Grand Canyon in which tow truck driver Simon (played by Danny Glover) intervenes in what would otherwise be a mugging by street thug, Rocstar, which may be relevant today.
Simon: I've gotta ask you for a favor. Let me go my way here. This truck's my responsibility, and now that the car's hooked up to it, it's my responsibility too.
Rocstar: Do you think I'm stupid? Just answer that question first.
Simon: Look, I don't know nothing about you; you don't know nothing about me. I don't know if you're stupid, or some kind of genius. All I know is that I need to get out of here, and you got the gun. So I'm asking you, for the second time, let me go my way here.
Rocstar: I'm gonna grant you that favor, and I'm gonna expect you to remember it if we ever meet again. But tell me this, are you asking me as a sign of respect, or are you asking because I've got the gun?
Simon: Man, the world ain't supposed to work like this. I mean, maybe you don't know that yet. I'm supposed to be able to do my job without having to ask you if I can. That dude is supposed to be able to wait with his car without you ripping him off. Everything is supposed to be different than it is.
Rocstar: So what's your answer?
Simon: You ain't got the gun, we ain't having this conversation.
Rocstar: That's what I thought: no gun, no respect. That's why I always got the gun.
Simon: I've gotta ask you for a favor. Let me go my way here. This truck's my responsibility, and now that the car's hooked up to it, it's my responsibility too.
Rocstar: Do you think I'm stupid? Just answer that question first.
Simon: Look, I don't know nothing about you; you don't know nothing about me. I don't know if you're stupid, or some kind of genius. All I know is that I need to get out of here, and you got the gun. So I'm asking you, for the second time, let me go my way here.
Rocstar: I'm gonna grant you that favor, and I'm gonna expect you to remember it if we ever meet again. But tell me this, are you asking me as a sign of respect, or are you asking because I've got the gun?
Simon: Man, the world ain't supposed to work like this. I mean, maybe you don't know that yet. I'm supposed to be able to do my job without having to ask you if I can. That dude is supposed to be able to wait with his car without you ripping him off. Everything is supposed to be different than it is.
Rocstar: So what's your answer?
Simon: You ain't got the gun, we ain't having this conversation.
Rocstar: That's what I thought: no gun, no respect. That's why I always got the gun.
11
One way or another, we citizens, whether we we are registered voters or not, have to take back our country. This may be by relatively peaceful means as we are seeing in Iowa, New Hampshire and forthcoming States. Or it may be by civil disturbance, civil disobedience, marches, demonstrations, occupations, building takeovers, rioting, looting, going to the barricades or mattresses. Americans are practiced at all of them. At least one generation, we Baby Boomers, have not forgotten the 60's -- '68, '69 -- Days of Rage, Summer of Love. Nor have we forgotten the 70's. Watergate, etc. We have not forgotten Sproul Plaza, Columbia University, Kent State. We have not forgotten mobilization and mass marches on Washington. To paraphrase Capt. John Parker, if Washington, D. C. wants war, the citizens of the 50 United States can bring it to Washington, D.C. and any and every Federal & National facility and venue. The President, the Congress, the Supreme Court & all the Federal Bureaucracy is NOT the boss of us! 2016 is a crucible and a year of reckoning for America. It has already been acknowledged that our current government is broken. In fact the current system of American government is broken & beyond repair. Americans are going to need to reinvent their government. If we have to burn the country down & rebuild it from detoxified ashes, that is what we'll do. The year is just beginning & it is far from over. As some have already said, you ain't seen nothin' yet.
2
I'd be willing to bet I never saw you in one of the non-violent protests of the 60's, because many of us got the shit kicked out of us by the police for something more than giving public land to welfare ranchers. The day you sit down and let yourself be peacefully arrested in defense of a common principle is the day I'll let you piggyback on the 60's civil rights and antiwar movements.
8
Hey Reggie- If you want us to follow you, you're going to have to provide some specifics. You can start by answering a few basic questions: 1) In exactly what ways, in your opinion, is our current government broken? 2) Let's say you succeed in burning the country down, what specifically would you suggest be rebuilt from its detoxified ashes? 3) How will the rebuilding take place, who will do the rebuilding, and how long will it take? I know how I would answer at least one of these questions, but am curious how the leaders of the movement would answer them because people need to know exactly- and I mean exactly- what they're being asked to fight and die for. I presume you're more articulate than the Malheur crew who couldn't put two sentences together to articulate any coherent, reality-based vision other than to ask for sock and snack donations.
12
Take back our country FROM whom? Who took it away? Where is it?
7
A well regulated militia they were not, even though many of their supporters claim this verbiage. Overwrought over things no one group of people has, or should have, control of. They dare not learn from history where privatization of much of the lands in question led to ruination/the tragedy of the commons aka the Great Dust Bowl. It is only public subsidies and accountable conservation efforts that keeps these areas barely viable. Running more cattle on mostly causes more problems (pollution and erosion) than the income/work/expense involved. But instead of changing to fit the needs of the land, these folks want everyone else to change and let them do what they want - and via armed threats. One suspects that counseling and/or other mental health approaches are in order here, if they would be able to listen and mature. Or retraining for jobs that build up the land instead of degrading it? Is there something useful to be done other than the bitter harvest of rotting in jail?
10
Undoubtedly these folk would see counseling as yet another ruse by the Evil Guv'mn't to control their minds.
Tragically, for these folk ti's a lost cause, but not in ways they can comprehend.
Tragically, for these folk ti's a lost cause, but not in ways they can comprehend.
Does the Bundy tribe have enough cows for every law-abiding citizen to enjoy a nice juicy steak as payment for our troubles?
15
This is a wake up call for the support of public lands. As to the occupiers - well, it was a bad version of Annie Get Your Gun, a bunch of fools who played cowboys fighting the evil empire that subsidized animal grazing on very poor grasslands. But it's all OK now since scofflaw (I love that word) dad Cliven has been arrested for the 2014 standoff. Hopefully this is the end of the Bundys and their supporting militias - but probably not since the Kochs want to exploit mineral rights under all of that sagebrush.
16
I am the father of a millennial. My son cares very deeply about this country and votes. I know he doesn't get what he wants. But he would never do what Frye did. And if by chance he did do something so wildly stupid, I would never brag about and seem so proud of him as William Frye. Young Frye needed better parenting than this--which may explain where he ended up.
17
In one instance, a group of adults perform an armed occupation, clearly stating their motives and threats. A 41 day standoff along with carefully executed arrests and one fatality ensues.
In another instance, a 12 year old child playing with a fake gun in a public park in an open carry state is shot within 2 seconds of authorities approaching the situation.
I'm a little confused.
In another instance, a 12 year old child playing with a fake gun in a public park in an open carry state is shot within 2 seconds of authorities approaching the situation.
I'm a little confused.
41
As penance, maybe these families should have to dress their own children up in blackpaint and send them into that some midwestern urban public parks with realistic toy guns in their hand. If the police 'over react', well, they might learn something new about their treasured second amendment 'rights' and how mollycoddled they have been in their bubble of self delusion. The reality its, they'll probably not even serve 30 days in jail between the lot of them. They'll get off with an undisclosed fine which, if it amounts to more than their similarly delusional fellow welfare ranchers can afford, will be quietly paid by the Koch brothers. Naturally, someone will eventually expose this hypocrisy and we'll all read about it right here!
2
But the beauty part is that once these particular perps are legally found guilty, they will be unable to legally purchase guns.
The 12-year-old was black. That should clear up your confusion.
Good! Throw the book at all of them and make sure they pay for their crimes! The guy with the Confederate flag bumper sticker waving the American flag is one confused individual. Obamacare covers mental health services now, doesn't it?
15
I'll bet David Fry is a right-wing Republican.
And a hypocrite.
Oh don't take his land.
His forefathers had to practice genocide to wrest it from the natives.
Probably voting for Trump or Cruz.
If he could figure out how to pull the lever.
Beautiful.
And a hypocrite.
Oh don't take his land.
His forefathers had to practice genocide to wrest it from the natives.
Probably voting for Trump or Cruz.
If he could figure out how to pull the lever.
Beautiful.
12
"Probably voting for Trump or Cruz."
Not if he's convicted of a felony.
Not if he's convicted of a felony.
4
David Fry needs medication. He is obviously paranoid and delusional and said he is feeling suicidal - he needs help! His father is in complete denial.
15
I gotta say it- white cowboys with guns treated with kid-gloves.
Lots of minorities vote peacefully (when they can) and nothing is ever done. If they were to arm themselves and take over a Federal facility, would they get the same treatment? I'd hope so, but I have some doubts.
Lots of minorities vote peacefully (when they can) and nothing is ever done. If they were to arm themselves and take over a Federal facility, would they get the same treatment? I'd hope so, but I have some doubts.
13
Now you know that behind their flag waving nonsense (note the flags are inverted to show the Republic's in danger) are a bunch of white, right-wing bigots who can't get enough of sarah palin.
Let them proselytize from prison.
Let them proselytize from prison.
16
Now that these folks have been subdued, as a citizen of this country I would like to request that their assets be seized to pay for not just costs of the law enforcement effort put forth, but the damage they have caused on this and other citizen-owned Federal lands over the years and for loss of use. We all own those lands as a Nation, and they had no right to seize or damage the lands, or to ignore the rules they were given and not pay their lease fees.
18
While one can certainly empathize with the grievances, I'm perplexed by the mindset at play here. Boil it down and it amounts to, "I didn't get my way and so I'm going to start a revolution." It's perfect irony: you complain about your treatment while demonstrating how free you really are. All you have to do is step into virtually any other country in the world and one will see how much more restrictive government can of its citizens, particularly when it comes to airing out grievances. Try occupying government owned land in Pakistan or China.
158
Two words................. Waco, Texas.
1
Please enlighten us by elaborating on your opaque reference, Y.B.
1
As someone who owns farmland in Idaho and has to deal with incursions by elk and other wildlife, damaging my land and crops, as well as irrigation fees and regulations, I do not in the least empathize with their "grievances."
1
These people defy belief! They are so ignorant, spoiled, obstreporous and just so, so childish! Their positions make no sense and reflect the "spoiled brat" stratum of American society on such prominent display these days. They all need a good, long spanking while they're locked a way for a long enough time to give them a chance to read some American history books. They should certainly never be allowed any public assistance from theor "hated oppressor" - that'd be the rest of us.
Just try and imagine such a silly affair being played out or even tolerated in any other developed country. They embarrass us all.
Just try and imagine such a silly affair being played out or even tolerated in any other developed country. They embarrass us all.
25
Congrats to the Feds on two counts.
First, minimal bloodshed. A couple dozen heavily armed lunatics in an unhinged mental state could have done serious damage, and the carnage could have been terrible on both sides.
Second, the Feds let them look silly. Guys with military style weapons holed up in a bird sanctuary showed themselves to be true birdbrains - in many ways an apt setting for their public self-embarrassment. The saber-rattling while the Feds and the rest of the country yawned was perfect. And the strategy of picking them off as stupidly felt they had free reign to come and go as they pleased.
Only thing left - send them a collective bill for the damage and the use of federal facilities and vehicles during their occupation.
There's an old saying - never step in the way when your enemy is shooting him/herself in the foot. And the Feds followed that strategy beautifully.
Bravo.
First, minimal bloodshed. A couple dozen heavily armed lunatics in an unhinged mental state could have done serious damage, and the carnage could have been terrible on both sides.
Second, the Feds let them look silly. Guys with military style weapons holed up in a bird sanctuary showed themselves to be true birdbrains - in many ways an apt setting for their public self-embarrassment. The saber-rattling while the Feds and the rest of the country yawned was perfect. And the strategy of picking them off as stupidly felt they had free reign to come and go as they pleased.
Only thing left - send them a collective bill for the damage and the use of federal facilities and vehicles during their occupation.
There's an old saying - never step in the way when your enemy is shooting him/herself in the foot. And the Feds followed that strategy beautifully.
Bravo.
28
I would say that I'm glad it's over, except of course that it's not really over. Federal prosecutors have a lot of work ahead of them, at the taxpayers' expense, to prosecute appropriate charges.
The FBI, and state and local law enforcement, deserve a lot of credit for their professionalism and forbearance in accomplishing the arrests of these four individuals without violence. The entire situation would have been resolved without violence if Mr. Finicum had surrendered peacefully, instead of trying to run a roadblock and then trying to pull a gun on law enforcement officers.
The individuals who carried out this armed occupation are responsible for their own actions. Political zealots also bear responsibility, however, for urging them to believe that collection of grazing fees and prosecution of arson charges for setting fire to public lands amounted to government "tyranny"; and for urging them to believe that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to allow citizens to use weapons against the government to "oppose tyranny."
Those who make such arguments, and incite others to act on them. need to be held accountable through the political process. All U.S. citizens have the right to vote in this year's elections. Your vote is your own -- don't waste it on any candidate who claims that everything the government does is "tyranny," and that you should use weapons to oppose the government.
The FBI, and state and local law enforcement, deserve a lot of credit for their professionalism and forbearance in accomplishing the arrests of these four individuals without violence. The entire situation would have been resolved without violence if Mr. Finicum had surrendered peacefully, instead of trying to run a roadblock and then trying to pull a gun on law enforcement officers.
The individuals who carried out this armed occupation are responsible for their own actions. Political zealots also bear responsibility, however, for urging them to believe that collection of grazing fees and prosecution of arson charges for setting fire to public lands amounted to government "tyranny"; and for urging them to believe that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to allow citizens to use weapons against the government to "oppose tyranny."
Those who make such arguments, and incite others to act on them. need to be held accountable through the political process. All U.S. citizens have the right to vote in this year's elections. Your vote is your own -- don't waste it on any candidate who claims that everything the government does is "tyranny," and that you should use weapons to oppose the government.
164
On the one hand, I hope they all go to jail for the maximum allowable sentence.
On the other hand, at least they did the rest of us in the civilized world the very big favor of holing up in a godforsaken windblown piece of nowhere, three miles southeast of Siberia.
A few years ago some of these loons got into their semi-tractor trailers and, calling themselves the Truckers for the Consititution (or some such nonsense) threatened to shut down the Capitol Beltway. Now THAT would be a serious threat -- a few morons interfering with the daily lives of tens of thousands of productive citizens.
Thankfully, our Maryland and Virginia state troopers were having none of it, and the Truckers Ride for Entropy came to a quick and uneventful end,
On the other hand, at least they did the rest of us in the civilized world the very big favor of holing up in a godforsaken windblown piece of nowhere, three miles southeast of Siberia.
A few years ago some of these loons got into their semi-tractor trailers and, calling themselves the Truckers for the Consititution (or some such nonsense) threatened to shut down the Capitol Beltway. Now THAT would be a serious threat -- a few morons interfering with the daily lives of tens of thousands of productive citizens.
Thankfully, our Maryland and Virginia state troopers were having none of it, and the Truckers Ride for Entropy came to a quick and uneventful end,
12
The words and thoughts of David Fry exhibited in the voice stream contain sufficient paranoid/suicidal ideation that his mental health is clearly in substantial doubt. I believe this is likely a consequence of near total immersion in the extremist bubble in which too many people now live. His compatriots seem almost as severely effected, but not yet completely disconnected from the real world that exists outside their extremist bubble. I am concerned that many bubble inhabitants will go "over the edge" if/when Hillary or Bernie is elected.
11
I think I understand the rationale for the apparently single charge of conspiracy to impede federal officers. At the very least, it allows them to make the arrests and keep these people in jail and, ultimately, to be convicted of a crime that will keep them off the streets for many years without the drama of them claiming martyrdom status as domestic terrorists.
That said, terrorists is what they are, and I sincerely hope that related charges are brought against these domestic terrorists. It is long past time to call these people what they are: Christian extremists and domestic terrorists. They and their followers have made it clear they plan to continue this bizarre fight. This is the very nature of terrorism, creating an environment of fear that they can attack any place at any time.
As for the assertion that nothing is ever done - join the line. But that doesn't justify the actions they've taken. What's frightening is that the Nevada legislator who aided in the surrender, and many others like her, share the views of these extremists and support them in spirit if not also in action.
That said, terrorists is what they are, and I sincerely hope that related charges are brought against these domestic terrorists. It is long past time to call these people what they are: Christian extremists and domestic terrorists. They and their followers have made it clear they plan to continue this bizarre fight. This is the very nature of terrorism, creating an environment of fear that they can attack any place at any time.
As for the assertion that nothing is ever done - join the line. But that doesn't justify the actions they've taken. What's frightening is that the Nevada legislator who aided in the surrender, and many others like her, share the views of these extremists and support them in spirit if not also in action.
230
The "occupiers" may also be charged the cost for extra police and SWAT teams.
1
I would also think it qualifies as sedition.
Plotting against the security of these United States.
The group that plotted against Lincoln were all hanged.
I would like to at least put a reminder of that in the minds of these fools.
Plotting against the security of these United States.
The group that plotted against Lincoln were all hanged.
I would like to at least put a reminder of that in the minds of these fools.
1
FYI there was quite a large LDS contingent in this crew. The media didn't highlight it much, but it is a fact, and this story was closely watched in Utah, where the legislature has already voted to waste a lot of money suing the federal government to take away land that belongs to all Americans. Just because something is nearby, and looks good, and you'd like to have it, doesn't mean you can steal it.
These video game "patriots" are painfully delusional idiots. They're direct products of the stupendously successful Koch brothers-generated conservative propaganda machine that has somehow managed to legitimize an astoundingly ill-informed, selfish, paranoid, and xenophobic brand of political thought in this country that was once appropriately derided by old-school conservatives who actually had ideas and knew how to govern. I'm no historian but I'd bet this same (or similar) political trajectory can be found in the run-up to the Fascists overrunning Europe in the 1920's, 30's and 40's. Somebody please tell me we're not destined to repeat those horrific times.
13
Michele Fiore needs to step down immediately if she supports individuals who have broken the law and wasted the taxpayer's money. Might as well have a chief of police who supports the local bank robber.
She's welcome to express her "us versus them opinions", conspiracy theories and all but that's what talk radio is for.
She's welcome to express her "us versus them opinions", conspiracy theories and all but that's what talk radio is for.
23
She also riled up a bunch of these joiners by falsely reporting that Finicum had been shot with his hands up. She is a case herself.
11
Maybe the Federal Government should build a big prison in the wildlife refuge, complete with concertina wire and watch towers. It could employ some of the local people as guards and maintenance personnel. It could be filled with the usual suspects (mainly black and brown people), and I bet no one would stage an armed protest in the area. There is something about wildlife refuges that just seems to bring out the beast in man.
1
Mr. Fry will now get a nice quiet room of his own. In the meantime, the occupiers(terrorists) should be billed for the damages, Cliven Bundy's cattle can finally be removed, and the county can start to heal.
14
Being models of rugged individualism, they better have packed out what they packed in. Their hypocrisy is stunning. Their and insular righteous is frightening. Their flaunt of the Second Amendment is laughable.
18
Always reminded of the sad history of Native American abuse as this country's original inhabitants succumbed to the manifest destiny now espoused by the likes of the Bundys and others who think they have a God-given right to use and abuse our nation's wilderness as they see fit, regardless of the law and the U.S. Constitution.
14
Waco it wasn't. Ruby Ridge it wasn't. And we must all be very thankful for that. Congratulations to all in law enforcement whose patience and professionalism are the reasons it wasn't. Because it wasn't, the wing nut right will have that much less grist for their paranoid mill. These are dark times. Democracy and the rule of law are under assault from loud-mouthed, dangerous demagogues: Putin in Europe and Trump here. Save for one sad death, this dispute got resolved the way it's supposed to in a democracy: with words and courts and laws.
287
Those arrested should be charged for the government's expense in dealing with them.
1
@ Barry Schreibman - "Waco it wasn't" ---- but it WAS Whacko!
1
Great news that Cliven Bundy has been arrested. It was a shame that he could defy the federal government so long and apparently without consequences, but now the law has caught up with him. Set the bond at double the money he owes the federal government for grazing fees.
. . . Another good news that nobody was shot or killed at the refuge. I hope they go mild on the last four holdouts: short jail, community service, surrendering all arms. They seemed less dangerous but more afraid or deranged.
. . . Another good news that nobody was shot or killed at the refuge. I hope they go mild on the last four holdouts: short jail, community service, surrendering all arms. They seemed less dangerous but more afraid or deranged.
5
Why should they get a break? If they were a bunch of Black guys, would you advocate cutting them some slack?
The person who drives a getaway car during a bank robbery is just as guilty as the one who point the gun at the teller.
All of them took up arms against the federal government and advocated its overthrow.
Like Baretta use to say, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."
The person who drives a getaway car during a bank robbery is just as guilty as the one who point the gun at the teller.
All of them took up arms against the federal government and advocated its overthrow.
Like Baretta use to say, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."
8
Ah, yes, Baretta: a great role model there . . . who murdered his wife.
And here we have the Republican front-runner for the Presidential nomination who publicly expressed his support for these thugs. Trump vs. Sanders, who is the real extremist here? A extremely dysfunctional group of people occupying the lead roles of the Republican party.
8
But they are all heroes, patriots and job creators!
And yet another good reason for legalizing pot. That poor freedom fighter would be just fine if he could toke it up. Huh? He was in Oregon and he still couldn't get any pot? Dude pot is legal in Oregon. These people are also not very bright. Sorry.
And yet another good reason for legalizing pot. That poor freedom fighter would be just fine if he could toke it up. Huh? He was in Oregon and he still couldn't get any pot? Dude pot is legal in Oregon. These people are also not very bright. Sorry.
8
In addition to jail time, the municipal, state and federal governments should sue these individual lawbreakers on behalf of taxpayers to recover all costs incurred to maintain law and order while they unlawfully took a federal building hostage for 40 days.
12
Finally. It's over. What is so difficult for me to comprehend is that these folks think that they can disobey the law and shouldn't have to deal with the consequences. There is no thought process about what would happen if everybody who had a beef with a governmental agency, regulatory law or next door neighbor took up arms and declared war. These folks think they are special because...um...I'm not sure. Breaking the law started this whole issue that they are protesting about. But yet, they felt they should be able to still leave without any consequences and were surprised to learn that they still live in a land ruled by law.
15
"I've peacefully voted and nothing is ever done."
Well, now you've taken up arms and nothing was done either, except one of your buddies is dead and the rest are going to jail.
In fact, much has been accomplished by peacefully voting. That's how we've had presidents as different as Reagan, Clinton, Bush, and Obama. Two of those I disagreed with vehemently, but I never considered violent rebellion against the government.
Our democracy is a mess, it's slow, it's dominated by rich people and corporations, and you don't always get your way. It's also the best in the world. If you can't deal with that, maybe you should live somewhere else.
Well, now you've taken up arms and nothing was done either, except one of your buddies is dead and the rest are going to jail.
In fact, much has been accomplished by peacefully voting. That's how we've had presidents as different as Reagan, Clinton, Bush, and Obama. Two of those I disagreed with vehemently, but I never considered violent rebellion against the government.
Our democracy is a mess, it's slow, it's dominated by rich people and corporations, and you don't always get your way. It's also the best in the world. If you can't deal with that, maybe you should live somewhere else.
15
I wonder if the feds would be so patient if the group occupying the preserve had been the Black Panthers.
8
Of course not. The Republican presidential candidates, Fox News, and conservative talk radio would have demanded that the government took immediate action.
This just shows that conservative are not people of principles but rather hypocritical ideologues who feel the rules don't apply to White people that try to overthrow the federal government. They are also know as apologists for the Confederacy.
This just shows that conservative are not people of principles but rather hypocritical ideologues who feel the rules don't apply to White people that try to overthrow the federal government. They are also know as apologists for the Confederacy.
8
Several others have already brought the point to bear. To add - my father, grandfather, two uncles, a great grandfather, four cousins and a great-great grandfather were buried with the American flag draped over their coffins. I believe they understood the right to voice an opposing opinion while holding the flag. I don't believe they would ever advocate hiding behind it.
12
32 year old unemployed security guard. This is what I mean by failed white guy. He isn't doing anything to make his life better and instead of looking for a job he stands on his truck (welfare paid for his gas to get there) waving a flag of a nation he clearly hates. He calls "hate" love. But don't worry, occupiers, he's got your back! Haha, jokers.
18
Can't like this comment enough.
3
And some of you wonder how 'The Donald' is leading the pack on the right, at the moment.
15
I guess this little episode comes under the heading "always find someone else or something else to blame for your problems". It's time for them and their ilk to take some responsibility, dispense with the conspiracy nonsense, and try to do good and not just steal from the people of the US, whether it's land or free grazing rights.
13
Using public lands for your personal profit? OK I would like some free land too. From what I have been taught, you must pay first. Nothing is free. The last free range I saw was in the movies. The romantic cowboy is over boys.
9
These people should go to prison for a long, long time...and if ever let out of prison..should be locked up in a facility for the mentally ill. They should never, ever have another opportunity to buy guns or live free.
12
This gang, and unfortunately thousands of other like-minded people, think that if everything doesn't go exactly their way all the time, they're within their rights to arm themselves to the gills and try to force their will on everyone else.
Think what it would be like if everyone felt so entitled.
Think what it would be like if everyone felt so entitled.
14
Well, they had a chance to join the struggle, and it looks like nobody joined. I wonder what this tells us about those "like minded people"?
Let’s hear no more about how “the Muslims,” “the refugees,” “the Mexicans” or any group treated as “the other” want to live in the US without assimilating. It was precisely Caucasian, far-right, gun-loving, government-fearing individuals who felt confident defying and rejecting American laws.
17
"I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.”
Oh shucks. That's why I left England in the first place, that and the fact that it's REALLY hard to get hold of a gun and hold wildlife centres hostage because Parliament wasn't doing things my way. Thought it'd be different here. Well, might as well pack up and go back now, I suppose.
Oh shucks. That's why I left England in the first place, that and the fact that it's REALLY hard to get hold of a gun and hold wildlife centres hostage because Parliament wasn't doing things my way. Thought it'd be different here. Well, might as well pack up and go back now, I suppose.
12
I am not one to denigrate ones beliefs whether I agree or not with their positions. However this Stand Off only accomplished the Death of 1 man and regardless who pulled the Trugger the militants are 100% the cause of his Death. The militants also aliented more people and the only ones they attracted are if their own ilk. I'm 67 a Vietnam Veteran who served in country and I'm very Patriotic and am not a Fan of most Politucians. I look 4ward to all the back stabbing and cowardice these militants are going to display at court and while in Jail. I challenge you to show your Strength to Stand Up for your Beliefs regardless of the outcome. If any of you are released without Prison Time, "Shame on the Authoriies and very Govertment you hate. Hoorah
10
Someone should try and explain the difference between "liberty and death" and freedom of choice with the attending consequences, to David Fry.
As for Michele Fiore, the self appointed spokesperson/spotlight chaser for these miscreants, she's a real beauty in her own right.
Currently, she owes "more than 1 million dollars in back taxes, and said on her weekly radio show that cancer, which she "believes is a fungus," could be treated with baking soda."
www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/who-is-michele-fiore-what-we-know-about-the-or...
Check out her Christmas card with the entire family holding firearms. There's nothing better than cozying up to a warm Uzi during the holidays!
As for Michele Fiore, the self appointed spokesperson/spotlight chaser for these miscreants, she's a real beauty in her own right.
Currently, she owes "more than 1 million dollars in back taxes, and said on her weekly radio show that cancer, which she "believes is a fungus," could be treated with baking soda."
www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/who-is-michele-fiore-what-we-know-about-the-or...
Check out her Christmas card with the entire family holding firearms. There's nothing better than cozying up to a warm Uzi during the holidays!
13
Wow. The "Christmas" card is beyond surreal. This goes a very long way towards illuminating the degree of insanity of those holding this mindset.
I'm not overly religious, but I must wonder how such "God-fearing" folk can fathom Christ giving blessing to such a grotesque distortion of His message of peace, love and forgiveness to one and all.
I doubt there's any mental health treatment available which could truly help these people. And that's very very frightening.
I'm not overly religious, but I must wonder how such "God-fearing" folk can fathom Christ giving blessing to such a grotesque distortion of His message of peace, love and forgiveness to one and all.
I doubt there's any mental health treatment available which could truly help these people. And that's very very frightening.
7
Anyone who bothered to listen to this poor, deluded kid go on and on about absolute NONSENSE knows that the authorities should have stepped in and put an end to the "occupation" of the wildlife refuge about forty days ago....in other words, immediately after it happened.
The misguided media turned these fringe-thinkers into media stars of every anti-government nutcase West of the Rockies...and the talk shows and comment boards across the nation have shown just how many of THEM there are - - MILLIONS !
And just WHO was it that thought having Michele Fiore come in as a "negotiator"?
This is the dizzy woman that has stated that salt water can kill "...the cancer virus."
The misguided media turned these fringe-thinkers into media stars of every anti-government nutcase West of the Rockies...and the talk shows and comment boards across the nation have shown just how many of THEM there are - - MILLIONS !
And just WHO was it that thought having Michele Fiore come in as a "negotiator"?
This is the dizzy woman that has stated that salt water can kill "...the cancer virus."
5
Guess this movie didn't end the way they thought it would. This is what happens when you aren't taught critical thinking skills. You read or hear stuff that sounds good to you but don't run it thorough the reality filter that most people have. The next thing you know your all alone in the middle of nowhere being arrested.
10
These people are very definition of unreasonable. They refuse to listen to any opinion that doesn't agree with their own. But that cuts both ways. Those who refuse to listen will not be heard.
But what is really frustrating for them is that reality simply refuses to line up with their world view. It's got to be hard work trying to bring facts into alignment with fallacy, and when there is no pay off for that effort, what else can be expected except rage?
Given their refusal to reason, they deserve no reasonable accommodation in return. Arrest them, prosecute them, and incarcerate them as a sign to others who might be tempted to follow in their footsteps. Reason and law are the foundations of our society, and to toss them aside for your own misguided goals, is a crime against us all.
But what is really frustrating for them is that reality simply refuses to line up with their world view. It's got to be hard work trying to bring facts into alignment with fallacy, and when there is no pay off for that effort, what else can be expected except rage?
Given their refusal to reason, they deserve no reasonable accommodation in return. Arrest them, prosecute them, and incarcerate them as a sign to others who might be tempted to follow in their footsteps. Reason and law are the foundations of our society, and to toss them aside for your own misguided goals, is a crime against us all.
8
So will these last four protesters be charged with a crime?
Does anyone think after listening to these people, that should ever have been allowed to possess guns?
Does anyone think after listening to these people, that should ever have been allowed to possess guns?
9
Mr Fry seems to have mental issues and he may very well act on his suicidal tendencies. He needs help.
On a related note- since all these squatters were well armed- I assume Mr. Fry was armed as well.
why does it seem every person with mental issues finds it possible to get their hands on guns? This is yet another example.
On a related note- since all these squatters were well armed- I assume Mr. Fry was armed as well.
why does it seem every person with mental issues finds it possible to get their hands on guns? This is yet another example.
12
What a colossal waste of time and energy.
5
not to mention a boatload of $$$$$$ for taxpayers who get to clean up after these guys.
8
“I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.”
Thus spoke the regular lottery patron, bad at both math and critical thinking.
Thus spoke the regular lottery patron, bad at both math and critical thinking.
11
So thankful this is finally over. These "armed militants" or domestic terrorists or whatever you call them committed felonies and do not represent the people of that area or most citizens. I look forward to the opening of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge very soon: it's first on my list for a road trip to visit and show support for the people in that area. Hugs to all the FWS staff, volunteers, Friends group members, and people in the community who had to endure this unlawful occupation.
215
These folks have been drinking their own koolaid. They are domestic terrorists and should be prosecuted as such. As a law-abiding citizen I was denied my right to access public land in the area. Land that these kooks were 'occupying' with armed force. Throw the book at them.
11
Are we still referring them to protesters? Aren't they, by definition, terrorists? Did they not seize federal property? I wonder if these were inner city protesters what they would be called if they occupied, say a government building?
16
So according to another Times story, Rep Fiori is some Brooklyn transplant who wanted to be in the movies, set up some kind of home health care business and racked up a bunch of back taxes and fines. No wonder she like the Bundys. I guess she convinced the Nevadans out there to give her a job.
Maybe throw a net over her while you have her out there in the sticks, and get her $$ too to help clean up what has to be the biggest fouled nest in Oregon at the Refuge. I guess Cliven Bundy just dunced into airport and the Oregon police. Not the sharpest knives in the box.
Maybe throw a net over her while you have her out there in the sticks, and get her $$ too to help clean up what has to be the biggest fouled nest in Oregon at the Refuge. I guess Cliven Bundy just dunced into airport and the Oregon police. Not the sharpest knives in the box.
12
You've gotta see her pin up calendar she sells., featuring herself decked out with various firearms of the month. Call it up in your search engine. Only in America!
What a huge waste of money and resources in tough economic times. Their cause meant nothing. They will soon be forgotten.
3
They might be forgotten personally, but actually we need to be on the lookout, because there are many Western politicians, from Utah, Nevada, Arizona, Idaho and elsewhere that would like nothing more than the goals of these folks to be realized: turnover of OUR public lands to states and private. This is true for Congressmen as well as state legislators. People in the East need to be aware of this, because otherwise, there may be no West for you to visit in the future.
14
These traitorous goons are a walking advertisement FOR gun control...
Lock 'em up and throw away the key...
Lock 'em up and throw away the key...
8
Something is very wrong when a parent like Mr. Fry supports/excuses the armed extremism of his son as some kind of bonafide activism. Excusing and praising offspring no matter what they do lies at the heart of an individualism gone crazily wrong, and not in the way that right-wingers say.
12
Possibly. Another possibility is that he is trying to keep open communication with a son who is clearly off the rails, but criticizing him to the media will not keep peace in the family. The issue of mental illness and guns is touchy and many people are not eager to have their children, abusive spouses, and volatile neighbors declared mentally incompetent, its just too scary. On the other hand, having someone who is upset about UFOs and government suppression of inventions driving around with an arsenal in his truck is also pretty scary. I do not envy the lawmen who are trying to protect us from these people.
2
I admire the parents and family members of who can take a stand for society and the public at-large when their blood relatives have run off the rails. There has to be a point where society comes first, just like when the teacher and the school, not the kid, used to be right. The quoted parent doesn't have to be vitriolic, but an expression of disagreement with the offender and an apology to the public would set a much better tone.
The 16 people who took over and occupied that refuge are domestic terrorists and should be charged accordingly. End of discussion.
10
"The standoff has highlighted the anger of many Western ranchers and farmers over federal government ownership of vast tracts of land in Western states, which they believe should be turned over to the states or to private ownership."
The standoff also highlighted the frightening number of heavily-armed, self-described "patriots," willing to brandish weapons against local, state and federal law enforcement officers and threaten and intimidate federal employees and their families. These self-appointed militias display extraordinary arrogance by setting up their own patrols and offering to act as intermediaries and negotiators between the FBI and armed, out-of-state, criminal trespassers. Even worse are Sheriff Glenn Palmer from neighboring Grant County, OR and Nevada State Assemblywoman Michele Fiore who offer support and encouragement to people committing federal crimes.
The standoff also highlighted the frightening number of heavily-armed, self-described "patriots," willing to brandish weapons against local, state and federal law enforcement officers and threaten and intimidate federal employees and their families. These self-appointed militias display extraordinary arrogance by setting up their own patrols and offering to act as intermediaries and negotiators between the FBI and armed, out-of-state, criminal trespassers. Even worse are Sheriff Glenn Palmer from neighboring Grant County, OR and Nevada State Assemblywoman Michele Fiore who offer support and encouragement to people committing federal crimes.
25
Terrorism is the use of violence and intimidation to achieve political aims, and people who rise up in an organized manner against the government using weapons are participating in an insurrection. Unless these people were just committing these illegal acts on public (federal) property to get Cliven Bundy out of having to pay the millions he owns for grazing his cattle on our land, they they are terrorists and insurrectionists and should be treated as such. Confiscate their property to pay for the damage they've done to the bird sanctuary and to pay for the Bundys' bill, as well as for the overtime for the local, state, and federal LEOs who had to manage the mess they created, lock them up for as long as terrorists get locked up--do we even have to give them a trial?--then take away their guns in perpetuity. Kudos to the FBI and all the other law enforcement agencies for their patience and forbearance.
8
So many had predicted here and elsewhere that this would end like Waco. Obama is too smart. No amount of pushing by the media could make this a killing field.
11
“I’m thinking he’s playing shock jock again,” Mr. Fry said. “He’s trying to — you know, shocking statements sometimes can send a message.”
I hope Mr. Fry realizes that his son David's comments may also be a cry for help. Some of his frustrations are valid, others, like concealing UFO's and chemically castrating everybody, are not. I hope David gets the help he needs.
I hope Mr. Fry realizes that his son David's comments may also be a cry for help. Some of his frustrations are valid, others, like concealing UFO's and chemically castrating everybody, are not. I hope David gets the help he needs.
12
"I peacefully voted and nothing is ever done."
I diligently by lotto tickets and never win, should I rob a bank?
I diligently by lotto tickets and never win, should I rob a bank?
15
The federal government should charge these people to the max. They are threats to our government and to all of us. This also proves that it is possible for police to deal with threats without violence and it not necessary for them to shoot black children.
4
I've posted it before in this forum and will do so again: If these people were anything other than white, they would've been shot down weeks ago.
9
I'm glad that's over and without further harm to anyone.
And while I both hesitate to judge people with whom I have so little in common and abhor a cliche, for the last holdout who was considering suicide because the government charges grazing fees on public land: Dude, you need to get out a little more.
And while I both hesitate to judge people with whom I have so little in common and abhor a cliche, for the last holdout who was considering suicide because the government charges grazing fees on public land: Dude, you need to get out a little more.
11
If you gave these people what they say they want - free access to federal lands to graze their cattle on - BUT you said that to be fair to all American citizens the opportunity to do so would be open by lottery to ANYONE and these complainers would have to take their chances that their sweetheart grazing deal with the feds could go to someone else, they'd drop their complaining instantly. Their illegal protests are not a political action. They are not a statement about American freedom. This is just greed, armed and dangerous.
14
In 2014, Cliven Bundy went all Western-man macho and dared the federal to arrest him. The authorities stood down and allowed the cowboy welfare king to brag about beating the law. Well, as the Bobby Fuller Four once had it, "I Fought The Law And The Law Won." No Ruby Ridge. No Waco. One fatality because the deceased reached for a piece. President Obama waited patiently while many complained about the law-breakers flaunting justice. What the president's critics fail to realize is his full commitment to his Constitutional office to "preserve and protect" Americans. He did not yield to the yelling crowd and as a result, lives were saved. Those who claim the president wishes to be an emperor or a king might bear in mind his patience and forbearance, not to mention his kindness.
27
In terms of knowing exactly how to avoid an armed confrontation, special kudos to the brilliant agents who knew Cliven Bundy wouldn't be packing heat when he exited the plane in Portland.
19
Finally! What took the FBI so long? Never ceases to amaze me how certain people are the first to decry government regulations and their taxes going towards the safety net, and then turn around and push for regulations for others, and feel aggrieved if they don't get as much free stuff from the government as they think they deserve.
9
Our country needs to send a clear message about domestic terrorism; let's start with these people.
10
Yet more proof of the social abuse by the cops with the word terrorist.
Why does the NYTimes and other mainstream media continue to call these criminals "protesters" instead of more accurate names such as terrorists, extremists, fundamentalist fanatics? And let's not forget freeloaders, thieves, bullies - and traitors.
As others here point out, does anyone believe that the events would have played out the same way if a group of Native Americans - who surely have a better claim - unlawfully occupied this or any other Federally-owned property?
How about if a group of African-Americans occupied Central Park? Of course, for that matter, African-Americans can't occupy their own communities without coming under police fire.
These Oregon TERRORISTS aren't really against all government - they're just against OUR democratically-elected government of We The People. What they want is to impose themselves as self-appointed theocrats/feudal warlords - at the point of a gun.
These so-called Christians - whose self-serving "religion" of hate is totally the opposite of Jesus and His teachings - are nothing but white-trash ISIS.
I hope they're treated as the terrorists they are - with long sentences in maximum-security prisons - with no internet access to broadcast their demands, delusions, and hate.
As others here point out, does anyone believe that the events would have played out the same way if a group of Native Americans - who surely have a better claim - unlawfully occupied this or any other Federally-owned property?
How about if a group of African-Americans occupied Central Park? Of course, for that matter, African-Americans can't occupy their own communities without coming under police fire.
These Oregon TERRORISTS aren't really against all government - they're just against OUR democratically-elected government of We The People. What they want is to impose themselves as self-appointed theocrats/feudal warlords - at the point of a gun.
These so-called Christians - whose self-serving "religion" of hate is totally the opposite of Jesus and His teachings - are nothing but white-trash ISIS.
I hope they're treated as the terrorists they are - with long sentences in maximum-security prisons - with no internet access to broadcast their demands, delusions, and hate.
15
To all the Bundy-following felons: no more guns for you. Ever.
Let your sympathizers think about that the next time they feel like pulling the same kind of stunt.
Let your sympathizers think about that the next time they feel like pulling the same kind of stunt.
10
It is interesting that despite the clear right-wing ideology of this militia (abortion, guns, and a dash of millennarian madness) there are also elements they have in common with the left: railings against banks, Big Pharma, conspiracy theories about "chemicals" and UFOs. Extremes meet.
1
My concern now, NTIM, is whether or not the refuge is booby-trapped by these, er, boobies.
3
I don't think they're smart enough to have done that without hurting themselves.
2
These guys are clearly unbalanced and should not be able to possess fire arms ever again. Let's hear what the NRA has to say.
12
Don't expect anyone to ever stand up for your rights. It's a two way street.
Patrick : A guy having a nervous breakdown and feeling suicidal and blabbering about abortion and taxes at a Bird Sanctuary is not exactly what people are looking for. Thanks anyway.
The Bundys are a peculiar sect of fanatical Mormons. No, we don't choose them "to stand up for our rights". They are not even playing with a full deck for themselves.
The Bundys are a peculiar sect of fanatical Mormons. No, we don't choose them "to stand up for our rights". They are not even playing with a full deck for themselves.
10
The cream on top was that Cliven Bundy got arrested. Safe and protected by bodyguards in his home state of Nevada, he learned what law and order was about when he flew to Portland. How cool is that that no guns are allowed on airplanes? Just cuff him as he exits the plane.
30
Please run an audit for how much money all levels of government have spent giving tender loving care and therapy to these seditionists.
Make the total bill well known, so everyone can understand what the "patriots" are contributing to their country.
Make the total bill well known, so everyone can understand what the "patriots" are contributing to their country.
20
Bundy, his family, and his supporters have forgotten the relevant history of the West.
Oregon was part of the Louisiana Purchase, which Thomas Jefferson made of Napoleon, who was glad to get the money to continue to conquer the world. So it must belong to the United States, because we paid gold for it -- the gold standard in land purchase.
Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona as well and parts of other states were won fair and square by US defeating Mexico in the Mexican–American War of 1846-48. So if the Bundy Bunch believe in force majeur making right, that territory also belongs to the United States.
If they don't recognize those two events, and claim the land because they've lived on and used it for 150 years or less, then the land should belong to the first people to inhabit it, the Paiute peoples -- who by virtue of long-time residence and use of the land have a claim antedating the Bundys' claim by 10,000 to 20,000 years.
The Bundys should be bundled off to prison, their cattle rounded up and given to the Paiute peoples because they've been fattening off their land, and all their property confiscated and held in an evidence warehouse somewhere near Las Vegas for their trials.
Incidentally, Ammon's name is not pronounced like "Amen," as most NPR reporters do, but like Hammond. "Ammon" is a character from the Book of Mormon. Ryan and Cliven are not.
Oregon was part of the Louisiana Purchase, which Thomas Jefferson made of Napoleon, who was glad to get the money to continue to conquer the world. So it must belong to the United States, because we paid gold for it -- the gold standard in land purchase.
Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona as well and parts of other states were won fair and square by US defeating Mexico in the Mexican–American War of 1846-48. So if the Bundy Bunch believe in force majeur making right, that territory also belongs to the United States.
If they don't recognize those two events, and claim the land because they've lived on and used it for 150 years or less, then the land should belong to the first people to inhabit it, the Paiute peoples -- who by virtue of long-time residence and use of the land have a claim antedating the Bundys' claim by 10,000 to 20,000 years.
The Bundys should be bundled off to prison, their cattle rounded up and given to the Paiute peoples because they've been fattening off their land, and all their property confiscated and held in an evidence warehouse somewhere near Las Vegas for their trials.
Incidentally, Ammon's name is not pronounced like "Amen," as most NPR reporters do, but like Hammond. "Ammon" is a character from the Book of Mormon. Ryan and Cliven are not.
14
Sorry; "as well and parts of other states" should have read "as well as parts of other states." I got a little carried away with alliteration.
And it occurs to me that my penultimate paragraph is a bit muddled: when I said "The Bundys should be bundled off to prison" I meant to add "to be held until trial, but" as in this revision:
The Bundys should be bundled off to prison to await trial, without bail, but their cattle should be rounded up and given to the Paiute peoples because they've been fattening off Paiute land -- and all their property, including guns and ammunition, should be confiscated and held in an evidence warehouse somewhere near Las Vegas for their trials.
They deserve to be tried. We deserve to be able to try them. They should be tried for conspiracy, for armed insurrection, and for lacking the common decency to not leave when the people of Burns asked them to. They should have their day in court, and be able to fully air their views,and have them rebutted by the attorneys for the prosecution, before a jury of their peers, and then see where justice lies. Justice may be blind but she ain't dumb. Let's hear her speak.
And it occurs to me that my penultimate paragraph is a bit muddled: when I said "The Bundys should be bundled off to prison" I meant to add "to be held until trial, but" as in this revision:
The Bundys should be bundled off to prison to await trial, without bail, but their cattle should be rounded up and given to the Paiute peoples because they've been fattening off Paiute land -- and all their property, including guns and ammunition, should be confiscated and held in an evidence warehouse somewhere near Las Vegas for their trials.
They deserve to be tried. We deserve to be able to try them. They should be tried for conspiracy, for armed insurrection, and for lacking the common decency to not leave when the people of Burns asked them to. They should have their day in court, and be able to fully air their views,and have them rebutted by the attorneys for the prosecution, before a jury of their peers, and then see where justice lies. Justice may be blind but she ain't dumb. Let's hear her speak.
3
Just a sidebar to this reality show brought to you by Atlas Shrugged- the concept of Federal land and Environmental protection should be a source of pride in the USA and a symbol that the needs of We the People stand above the greed of individuals. We have lost our way when a small group of anarchists attempts to harness outrage at "big government" to its own selfish ends. There are a silent majority of Americans who understand this despite the foxification of journalism- may they all show up at the polls and begin to restore the true essence of patriotism - finding common ground.
11
I think these people have received enough media attention already. Can we please move on to things that are far more pressing and crucial now, like why children can still gain access to firearms and continue to die and kill others every day due to the poor judgement and neglect of others?
5
Sadly, I think what all these armed, angry, disappointed men have in common is unemployment. They rail at the government who prevents the fatigue clad "soldier" from pretending to be his other favorite character; "cowboy". These lost men seem to lack an identity or a job.
5
Very glad to see this end peacefully and to see the rule of law return to Oregon. Great job to the FBI and local law enforcement!
Also very glad to see Cliven Bundy was arrested. I hope they throw the book at him!
Also very glad to see Cliven Bundy was arrested. I hope they throw the book at him!
15
If these armed and dangerous men had been African-American, Native American or Latino. most of them would have died in a hail of FBI gunfire on the first day of the standoff and any survivors would be facing serious federal charges and life sentences.
7
I see, you have a crystal ball. Good, so who really killed JFK?
2
What? You don't know? Read JFK and the Unspeakable by James W. Douglass.
Another lonely, frustrated extremist from the fringes of American culture, following a different extreme ideology in a nation of moderates and consensus-builders.
Until the 9/11 attacks, the deadliest act of terrorism in America was perpetrated by Timothy McVeigh, another lonely, frustrated extremist from the fringes of American culture.
Until the 9/11 attacks, the deadliest act of terrorism in America was perpetrated by Timothy McVeigh, another lonely, frustrated extremist from the fringes of American culture.
2
The Bundys et al are an unequivocal demonstration that gun laws need sensible modification.
8
Would I consider these people terrorists? No. But if the occupation wasn't an armed insurrection, I don't know what would be. And in my book the term for armed insurrection against the lawfully elected government of the United States of America is treason.
While I don't expect that these yahoos will be convicted of treason, I devoutly hope that they will be held without bond, tried, and when found guilty, jailed. I'm sure they don't think they deserve that, but it rarely ends well when you bring guns to a protest meeting. When we protested the Vietnam War - without weapons of any kind except our voices - we were arrested, fined and jailed. What makes these people think they are immune from the consequences of their own actions?
While I don't expect that these yahoos will be convicted of treason, I devoutly hope that they will be held without bond, tried, and when found guilty, jailed. I'm sure they don't think they deserve that, but it rarely ends well when you bring guns to a protest meeting. When we protested the Vietnam War - without weapons of any kind except our voices - we were arrested, fined and jailed. What makes these people think they are immune from the consequences of their own actions?
16
The law needs to be applied in equal measure --what would happen to a group of Muslims, Black or Hispanic folks if they climb on top of cars, show guns, or worse, take over a government building?
These people need to be charged and tried by their peers, with the corresponding charges including domestic terrorism. In addition, the full cost of law enforcement during the occupation should be assessed against their assets, and those that aided or abetted their cause.
These people need to be charged and tried by their peers, with the corresponding charges including domestic terrorism. In addition, the full cost of law enforcement during the occupation should be assessed against their assets, and those that aided or abetted their cause.
8
Now for the trial of the century! Dozens of lawyers will be lined up on each side - voir dire will last for months!
I know of no other way to describe these people who chose to occupy federal buildings as criminals. This is a country of freedom for all but which is also protected by laws and regulations. Those who wish to disobey the laws and regulations should be treated as criminals.
15
Throw the book at these deadbeats, domestic terrorists, and armed insurrectionists. And the Republican seditionists who incite them.
32
What is it about abortions drives some people nuts? Do they have a pre-existing condition not covered by their insurance?
If the federal (or a state) government were targeting women and aborting their pregnancies, I could understand (I think). But the decision to abort a pregnancy is one which a woman makes with her doctors and perhaps others of her choice after weighing the moral and practical consequences one way or another. What is the connection to the federal (or a state) government? What is the connection to Planned Parenthood. What is the connection between the militants' talk about freedom and liberty, and women who are pregnant. Pregnant women would have a lot more freedom and liberty if militants and other private citizens who oppose abortions would just leave them alone. Now there is an idea: keep your nose out of someone else's business.
If the federal (or a state) government were targeting women and aborting their pregnancies, I could understand (I think). But the decision to abort a pregnancy is one which a woman makes with her doctors and perhaps others of her choice after weighing the moral and practical consequences one way or another. What is the connection to the federal (or a state) government? What is the connection to Planned Parenthood. What is the connection between the militants' talk about freedom and liberty, and women who are pregnant. Pregnant women would have a lot more freedom and liberty if militants and other private citizens who oppose abortions would just leave them alone. Now there is an idea: keep your nose out of someone else's business.
45
Mr. Finicum died on Jan. 26 in a clash with the authorities.
Mr. Finicum was "Killed", not just "Died".
This is why you don't have my unwavering trust.
Mr. Finicum was killed at a remote location away from witnesses, and don't try to tell me the distant video with no audio bore witness.
Mr. Finicum was "Killed", not just "Died".
This is why you don't have my unwavering trust.
Mr. Finicum was killed at a remote location away from witnesses, and don't try to tell me the distant video with no audio bore witness.
1
Are you implying that he was assassinated? If so, why did they target him and not the others who were arrested that night?
6
What would you say if there was a video that supported your position? Would that video instantly be legitimate? Or would you question that one too?
6
However it happened, I am happy that it did.
6
I do not understand. Why are these terrorists/lunatics/gun-toting, self righteous freaks given air time?
Silence and ignoring them would have been an option to take away their perceived glory and self importance.
Throwing the book at them now, getting the back taxes from the Bundy's et al should be next.
What is it currently with America? Are you losing the way and do not even notice?
Hysteria reigns.
Silence and ignoring them would have been an option to take away their perceived glory and self importance.
Throwing the book at them now, getting the back taxes from the Bundy's et al should be next.
What is it currently with America? Are you losing the way and do not even notice?
Hysteria reigns.
13
Perhaps giving them air time was a good choice. They had plenty of opportunity to make their case to the public - and to put out their call to action, rousing their supposed supporters, all those "real Americans", to come join the fight. They sent out the invitation to their party -- and nobody came. No one who shares their views can say they were silenced. They were given enough rope, and through their broadcast rantings, figuratively hung themselves.
1
I'm glad to see the Times is policing its use of the word "militia." Like "terrorist," "thug" and "gunman," the word "militia" is now freighted with cultural and racial meaning. Unlike the others, the word also harbors a sly compliment for the people it attempts to describe.
It bugs me when headline writers use it as shorthand for the bloody-minded might-makes-right types who flash their guns and indulge in "suicidal" tantrums about "tyranny."
It bugs me when headline writers use it as shorthand for the bloody-minded might-makes-right types who flash their guns and indulge in "suicidal" tantrums about "tyranny."
16
I can't imagine that two dozen people of color would have been given 40 days to vent over their grievances while occupying a federal facility but these nut jobs got that benefit of the doubt. Slaves!?! The use of the word by this crew is an insult. If they could find a way to qualify for government benefits they would not have turned down one cent of them. Besides the full fatigues and the stars and bars on the truck, where was the Trump sticker?
369
Remember the organization MOVE, back in the day? I'm certain they had some legitimate grievances, too. Their livestream consisted of a bullhorn and they occupied their own home (on top of which they constructed a bunker). They had a bomb dropped on them. I'm just saying.
2
I doubt two dozen people of color would have been as, er, stupid as this group. A generalization, I know, but still....everyone in this group seems a few bricks short of a full load.
10
Part of their world view is that you try to damage the government as much as possible by taking as much as possible. Fraud is no problem. There is some of this in regular Mormon theology but in FLDS it is huge. Read Krakauer's book Under the Banner of Heaven.
4
A lot of media coverage for a bunch of discontented twits and bandits. They wave their guns around, loudly proclaiming their patriotism. Let's see other non-whites do that, and see how fast the authorities take care of that. Another fine example of everyone ending over backwards for white radical christian militancy. Let's call it that, shall we?
20
That's a relief. Too bad one of these fanatics chose suicide by cop though.
17
Too bad the rest of them didn't.
The beginning of the punishment for these bozos should be to have to return to the refuge under supervision to scrub the place clean and restore it to its original pristine condition. No one should have to clean up after them. Then, send them to jail.
29
I listened to excerpts from the militant's webcast in which they ask "Where are all the Americans? Where are the the thousands?" It's stunning how delusional these people are. The vast majority of Americans disagree with their views, and the vast majority of those who agree with their views disagree with their tactics.
32
I try to imagine the moment when these guys realized that they were alone. Were they crushed? Did it just add to their resentment? Was it a moment of spiritual crisis, or did it just feed into the non-stop conspiracy theory running through their minds?
4
I hope that political leaders will realize how explosive some of their own talking points can be. The standoff here included the idea that the Federal Government is violent and an enemy of the people (they are neither. Ted Cruz had previously sounded sympathetic to Cliven Bundy for his own standoff), as well as the assertion that tax dollars fund abortion (they don't. The Republican candidates should stop blurring that reality). Cheap sound bites quickly become explosive.
26
I am relieved this is finally over and glad that nobody got hurt.
3
Can native born American terrorists be sent to Guantanamo? They would be a match made in heaven for those already there.
11
I hope folks in the east will bear in mind that the people of Harney County --the farmers and ranchers that the so-called "patriots" claim to care about -- have been protesting against these goofballs-with-guns, stating loudly, clearly, consistently, and peacefully -- LEAVE. We have our own voice, we don't want or need yours. Harney County is a great place with great folks, spacious and beautiful. NO one asked the Bundy gang to come, and with their weapons and hatred, they have terrified Harney County for too long. Terrified is the right word. It has been a nightmare folks in Burns. If you want to help, come camping this spring or summer, spend a few bucks in town, and visit this remarkable and distinctly American landscape.
775
Thank you Betsy T. for this heartfelt view of a situation that is easy to comment on, but hard to imagine from the other side of the country.
"...is a great place with great folks..." would aptly describe where I live too.
We are more alike that we let ourselves believe. And we need to amplify our voices by saying, "We are All the American Landscape."
I hope your community finds the peace it deserves. I can't wait to visit.
"...is a great place with great folks..." would aptly describe where I live too.
We are more alike that we let ourselves believe. And we need to amplify our voices by saying, "We are All the American Landscape."
I hope your community finds the peace it deserves. I can't wait to visit.
6
Thank you for the invitation. If there is anything I would like to visit near Burns, it would probably be the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, not as place of the Standoff but as place where we protect and can observe migratory birds. Getting a campground and a coffee in Burns would follow.
2
I don't hear too many blaming Oregonians for any of this. Especially since none of the people in "Y'all Qaida" are from Oregon.
2
Fry really sounds a lot like the guy who shot up Planned Parenthood in Colorado. Would the NRA and Republicans agree that an armed suicidal man who rants about government takeovers and baby-killers, such as Fry, forfeits his Second Amendment rights? Isn't he the sort of person whose "mental health" requires that he be disarmed? Of course not. The "mental health" counterargument is a chimera. There will be no consequences for Mr. Fry, the gun owner, unless he is convicted of a felony.
16
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
15
These folks were not practicing civil disobedience by any stretch of the imagination. Civil disobedience in the manner practiced by Dr. King or Gandhi involved occupying a place or marching when prohibited unarmed and subjecting oneself to arrest. The so-called ranchers came armed, daring law enforcement to engage them in a firefight. It was an armed insurrection.
I applaud the restraint shown by law enforcement in this situation. They let it burn itself out and took the starch out of the occupiers by arresting their leaders when they had the chance off grounds. It is shame that one of them perish red, but he was foolishly spoiling for a fight.
That being said, the government is partially to blame for this drama because it's timid response to the earlier provocation at the Bundy ranch emboldened that group of crazies. The band of merry occupiers apparently believed that they had law enforcement afraid to deal with them and thought the party would never end.
Thankfully the situation is now at a end without too much bloodshed. I hope the little town turned upside down by the madness can get back to normal soon.
I applaud the restraint shown by law enforcement in this situation. They let it burn itself out and took the starch out of the occupiers by arresting their leaders when they had the chance off grounds. It is shame that one of them perish red, but he was foolishly spoiling for a fight.
That being said, the government is partially to blame for this drama because it's timid response to the earlier provocation at the Bundy ranch emboldened that group of crazies. The band of merry occupiers apparently believed that they had law enforcement afraid to deal with them and thought the party would never end.
Thankfully the situation is now at a end without too much bloodshed. I hope the little town turned upside down by the madness can get back to normal soon.
363
I agree that backing off on the earlier Cliven Bundy ranch standoff set the stage for this one.
I was clamoring for more rapid action on this standoff. However, I must say that one wonderful outcome of having gone slow on this Oregon scene enabled them to bag Cliven Bundy while he was flying in. Bonus! Not bad, not bad at all.
I was clamoring for more rapid action on this standoff. However, I must say that one wonderful outcome of having gone slow on this Oregon scene enabled them to bag Cliven Bundy while he was flying in. Bonus! Not bad, not bad at all.
22
Perhaps now the government can go ahead and seize Bundy's cattle. I most certainly would.
5
I also thought the BLM and other federal agencies had given the Bundy family a pass when they abandoned their attempts to impound Cliven Bundy's cattle in 2014, and apparently ceased trying to collect unpaid grazing fees owed by the rancher.
But then I read the criminal complaint just filed against the elder Bundy following his arrest yesterday at the Portland airport. The 32-page complaint filed by FBI agent Joel Willis describes in chilling detail the events as they unfolded in Nevada nearly two years ago. I have a new respect for the choices federal authorities made at that time, and they clearly have been working quietly and patiently during the intervening time to see that Bundy and others involved in the 2014 standoff are held responsible for their actions.
It seems to have been another case of the government biding its time until action could be taken without precipitating a violent confrontation with a heavily armed group of extremists. In 2014 it wasn't a couple of dozen 'occupiers', but hundreds of heavily armed vigilantes organized by Bundy in what was essentially a revolt against the United States and its citizens. I underestimated the resolve of the FBi and the Justice Department to hold Cliven Bundy accountable, even if it took two additional years too serve the arrest warrant. It was well worth the wait to spare us the bloodshed that could have resulted from what was building towards a genuine range war.
But then I read the criminal complaint just filed against the elder Bundy following his arrest yesterday at the Portland airport. The 32-page complaint filed by FBI agent Joel Willis describes in chilling detail the events as they unfolded in Nevada nearly two years ago. I have a new respect for the choices federal authorities made at that time, and they clearly have been working quietly and patiently during the intervening time to see that Bundy and others involved in the 2014 standoff are held responsible for their actions.
It seems to have been another case of the government biding its time until action could be taken without precipitating a violent confrontation with a heavily armed group of extremists. In 2014 it wasn't a couple of dozen 'occupiers', but hundreds of heavily armed vigilantes organized by Bundy in what was essentially a revolt against the United States and its citizens. I underestimated the resolve of the FBi and the Justice Department to hold Cliven Bundy accountable, even if it took two additional years too serve the arrest warrant. It was well worth the wait to spare us the bloodshed that could have resulted from what was building towards a genuine range war.
3
Can we also arrest those play-soldiers who showed up from 3%? Why not just round them all up now and put 'em under the watchful eyes of our correctional system?
8
I hope the NYT will do a followup story about the streaming of the negotiations live on the Web. Who set it up (presumably, not the FBI)? Could the FBI have shut it down? If they could have shut it down, why did they not do that?
1
I heard some of the streaming by way of Twitter (I think). Not a bad thing. These guys ranted their way to their surrender. They wore themselves down. And all I had to do was turn it off.
6
What they really are and won't admit to being right wing "religious" extremists with serious mental illnesses, who are looking to steal land from the American public. The Nevada representative Michelle Fiore should be arrested for treason and giving aid and comfort to insurrectionists. Being a transplanted New Yorker who is now an long time Oregonian, I'm ashamed of these thugs and thieves disguised as hard working ranchers. There are only at most few thousand supporters in the country. They've got big egos and are delusional if they think the whole country supports them. I suggest they take the opportunity while in jail to seek out mental health counseling.
26
Bill them for all the costs involved in dealing with this fiasco, from the food the FBI ate, rental for the property they seized, down to the cost of the fuel in the Feds vehicles. And hold them in jail until payment is made.
23
"Mr. Fry said his grievances had not been addressed. He claimed his taxes were being used to pay for abortions. “Until you guys address my grievances, I will just sit in here by myself."
Lies matter, people. Are you listening Carly? Center for Medical progress? Republican congressmen who repeatedly try to defund Panned Parenthood by besmirching that organization? If this guy had killed a cop or anyone else, or himself, the blood's on your hands.
Lies matter, people. Are you listening Carly? Center for Medical progress? Republican congressmen who repeatedly try to defund Panned Parenthood by besmirching that organization? If this guy had killed a cop or anyone else, or himself, the blood's on your hands.
27
I doubt very highly that his taxes are paying for much.. unless he has a position at a company with extremely relaxed attendance requirements.
14
Thomas Wagner. Faketriots. Patriots don't use the gun to seize land. Criminals do that. Pay attention to the court sessions because you may actually learn something about our democracy.
Right now you represent the lunatic fringe. The people own Malheur. Not a few crazies with guns.
Right now you represent the lunatic fringe. The people own Malheur. Not a few crazies with guns.
14
I had a mental picture of the last four in the preserve waiting for the inevitable move from the law to storm them, ready to stand their ground, while the law stood around, eating pizza and discussing the Super Bowl, or maybe the primaries.
The last man out declared "war against the federal government" because he'd "peacefully voted and nothing is ever done."
There are almost 320 million of us here in the US, and almost 320 million of us are annoyed, or upset or outright outraged because something we want hasn't been done, even though we voted. And the list of just what those things are differ from person to person. No matter how much it might irritate us, we are not 320 million little fiefdoms, all able to get exactly our own way. We vote, and sometimes -even most times - we lose. That is part of being a big sprawling, messy country of really diverse people.
So, protest away. Make people aware of your concerns and problems. Make a stand. Get the attention of lawmakers and sympathizers. But leave the guns behind, and be ready to answer if your protest breaks the law. Sitting in a circle with arms linked making it hard to be hauled off public property is protest. Carrying a gun and threatening to shoot anyone who tries to move you is a felony.
The last man out declared "war against the federal government" because he'd "peacefully voted and nothing is ever done."
There are almost 320 million of us here in the US, and almost 320 million of us are annoyed, or upset or outright outraged because something we want hasn't been done, even though we voted. And the list of just what those things are differ from person to person. No matter how much it might irritate us, we are not 320 million little fiefdoms, all able to get exactly our own way. We vote, and sometimes -even most times - we lose. That is part of being a big sprawling, messy country of really diverse people.
So, protest away. Make people aware of your concerns and problems. Make a stand. Get the attention of lawmakers and sympathizers. But leave the guns behind, and be ready to answer if your protest breaks the law. Sitting in a circle with arms linked making it hard to be hauled off public property is protest. Carrying a gun and threatening to shoot anyone who tries to move you is a felony.
930
A conviction will solve their gun problems . . .
8
The last man was clearly unbalanced. His statement reflects on the logic-devoid stance of the others.
2
In this most recent example of people using the 2A rights to fight tyranny, the people were not able to identify where there was tyranny.
And so it goes.
And so it goes.
10
If these so-called patriotic ranchers believe, as one of their supporters asserted, "This is American, not Russia", they should test their comparison by moving to Russia and compare the degree of freedom enjoyed by the people in the two countries.
20
We'll these fools' biggest fear is about to come true. The gov't will take away their guns as happens to all convicted felons.
17
Frye: "We're not surrendering, we're turning ourselves in,"
Riiiiight....
Riiiiight....
17
This should serve as a wake up call for all of us who cherish public lands. We take them for granted. Others want to take them away. I have seen mountain tops blown up for coal and the horrible aftermath. Do not let this kind of destruction happen to what is left of our open lands.
35
Anyone is free to decide what laws this will or will not obey, but they have to be prepared to pay the dues.
9
So what exactly was achieved here? A man died, foolishly, amd a family's in mourning. Perhaps Cliven and the rest of these nut cases can now provide some real support to the family, and not just wave their flags from atop of a pick up truck....
12
A positive outcome for David Fry would be that he now receive desperately needed mental health services.
24
Good thing these guys weren't at the Alamo. Go home fellas. Have a beer. Burp. Shower once in a while. And every year gather to tell us why you're such great Americans. The rest of us are desperate to hear your story.
11
Can you imagine how Donal Trump would handle a situation in which people protest on federal property. Imagine! And, now, decide who you will vote for to be President.
Trump will physically attack people he disagrees with.
Trump will physically attack people he disagrees with.
3
Not a chance. Strikes me as the type of guy who has others do his fighting. You know, the Cheney type.
7
Send them a bill and don't forget the time-and-a-half for overtime and double-time for weekends.
20
"I've peacefully voted and nothing is ever done."
I believe that's called "Democracy".
I believe that's called "Democracy".
19
Hallelujah, hallelujah, the vandals and thugs have finally left the building!! I wish some things were made clearer in the national media:
1. The local population did not support these men. The county asked them to leave (nicely); and when the armed bullies held a meeting to pitch their ideas ("Tear up your grazing contracts! I done it! I don't pay grazing fees. You can do it too!") no local ranchers took them up on it; and when protesters drove in to make ridiculous demands about punishing local people for Finicum's death, they were met by a much larger group of locals telling the outsiders to go home.
2. At the most, there were about three dozen armed occupiers at the refuge. Hardly a revolution.
3. The ravings about bloodbaths and the FBI wanting to kill occupiers was a complete fabrication. It was all in the minds of the occupiers. It was never real.
4. For those still fretting over the Hammonds and their sentence for arson, stop and think about how many tens of millions of dollars were spent last year fighting wildfires. Think about the people who died fighting those fires. Think about the homes and ranches destroyed by those fires. Arson is a deadly serious crime in the West, and saying "I didn't mean it" doesn't absolve you of responsibility. Five years in prison is actually pretty lenient.
1. The local population did not support these men. The county asked them to leave (nicely); and when the armed bullies held a meeting to pitch their ideas ("Tear up your grazing contracts! I done it! I don't pay grazing fees. You can do it too!") no local ranchers took them up on it; and when protesters drove in to make ridiculous demands about punishing local people for Finicum's death, they were met by a much larger group of locals telling the outsiders to go home.
2. At the most, there were about three dozen armed occupiers at the refuge. Hardly a revolution.
3. The ravings about bloodbaths and the FBI wanting to kill occupiers was a complete fabrication. It was all in the minds of the occupiers. It was never real.
4. For those still fretting over the Hammonds and their sentence for arson, stop and think about how many tens of millions of dollars were spent last year fighting wildfires. Think about the people who died fighting those fires. Think about the homes and ranches destroyed by those fires. Arson is a deadly serious crime in the West, and saying "I didn't mean it" doesn't absolve you of responsibility. Five years in prison is actually pretty lenient.
39
One of the last holdouts stated many thought they are fruitcakes. He is. They are. They are close to being or even are domestic terrorists. For the courts to decide. Thankfully, no one else got killed.
15
These guys are criminals hiding under the cover of patriotism. For 40 days, they were handled with kid gloves and allowed pizza deliveries. Tamir Rice, a 12 year old black kid, was killed within seconds of a police car arriving. His family is now being sued by the city of Cleveland for the ambulance bill. So, tell me there is no inherent racism in the handling of these two cases.
39
great, now ducks can go about their business.
8
Yep, and the deer and the antelope get to play. I don't think there were any buffalo ever roaming the area though.
1
These people and their ilk are nothing more than anarchists who believe the gun trumps the vote. Their actions have shown they don't really believe in democracy.
18
Franklin Graham and Fiore who alighted on this commotion and were welcomed by its initiators are an indication of just who these people are. Complaining that even though you voted you did not get your wishes met is a plain demonstration of how completely out of touch this band of fools is. Thankfully only one was foolish enough to get himself shot and killed. This could have ended a lot worse. And Cliven Bundy took the bait and got himself arrested. Truly a Confederation of Dunces.
35
How about, "a Confederacy of Dunces?"
I followed the event on OPB and was appalled at the words and actions of Kris Anne Hall. An obstruction of justice charge would not be out of line in my opinion, due to her continued incitement of David Fry's fears and contributions to his confused state. Ms Hall interrupted FBI negotiations, no doubt far too excited to be involved in unfolding events to use common sense and stay out of what she was not qualified to be involved in in the first place. Mr Fry's fears were stoked by Ms Hall and those preaching religious platitudes, which only contributed to Mr Fry's resistance to surrender by far too much time.
I'm grateful no further lives were lost.
I'm grateful no further lives were lost.
16
Finally. Now the citizens of this great country can have their land back to enjoy.
11
Thank you, President Obama, for federal agencies with the patience to wait things out and resolve situations such as this in a generally peaceful manner. Weapons don't have to be the answer, something that you have proven more than once just with the Bundy Brigrade. Please know that it is appreciated.
32
Why are anti-government armed militias called "protesters" rather than domestic terrorist, anarchists or another term that is more appropriately descriptive of their actions and politics?
64
I'm almost 63 years old. I came from working class roots and lived through the turbulent 60's with the Vietnam War, protests, race-riots, etc. I have strong opinions about the issues of the day, but never once, in 63 years, have I spent one minute concerned about the tyranny of the Federal Government in my life. I'm not what anyone would consider a "flag-waver", but the American government has worked just fine in my lifetime. I've heard that the American voter today is angry; I think those that are as angry as the Bundy's and the like have personal issues that can never be resolved. Their own lives are their problem. The government has nothing to do with it.
1090
Look at these folks, do they strike you as hard working men? These are men who didn't get the memo that you cannot live on manual labor anymore, you have to earn your living with your brain, not your body. My point is these are lazy men and lazy men are not about to take responsibility for themselves, they need someone to blame for their failure. That's what's happening. That's why Trump is #1 with the angry white man. He supports them in blaming others.
13
Agree 100% judgeroybean
3
Your excellent comment summarizes perfectly the attitude that I and the people I know have. While I am not happy with the ridiculous partisan posturing of the right, I am happy that I live in a country where things generally work quite well, a function of the mostly dedicated people who make up "the government"
8
May these people never, EVER get the legal right back to have guns. Taking away their guns - just about the worst thing that could happen to these jerks.
And make sure all the Native American artifacts are accounted for!! Check Ebay!
And make sure all the Native American artifacts are accounted for!! Check Ebay!
51
It should be evident to all by now that "conservative," far-right extremists rant from an unhealthy place mentally and emotionally. If I were a Republican, I would denounce these radicals rather than appeasing them and currying their favor, which has been the Republican Party's standard response for many years.
103
Well, the insanity and hypocrisy is breathtaking but we all know that already. Funny, though, how it's o.k. for their "churches" to accept tax exempt status. My tax dollars are good enough to support their superstitions I guess.
80
what better reason to restrict access to guns. Clearly, there's a lot of severe mental illness out in ranching land. Mr. Fry didn't help their "Movement" at all. 25 years in an institution should help their cause a lot more.
9
They, the Bundy's, demanded that two local ranchers, imprisoned on arson charges for a fire that spread to public lands, be released, and that federal lands that the occupiers said were improperly taken from local ranchers in decades past be returned to local or private control.
Ponder that for a moment. The return of lands to the Native peoples. I'm sure that's what he meant, right:?
Ponder that for a moment. The return of lands to the Native peoples. I'm sure that's what he meant, right:?
110
Perhaps I could get my great uncle's business in Prague back? It was stolen and he was murdered by the Germans.
18
Bundy declared publicly that the Natives lost their chance and the land belongs to the white ranchers. Breathtaking arrogance and racism, never mind the insanity.
21
I know a bartender named Bob Bozik that is doing something akin to that. Maybe you should try.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/nyregion/fanelli-cafe-manhattan-barten...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/nyregion/fanelli-cafe-manhattan-barten...
Most of the people involved in this are not ranchers. And those who are do not, in my experience, speak for most ranchers in the West. "Ranchers" is itself a general term for a pretty diverse group of people, many of whom make more money from non-cow activities than they do from cows. I can't speak for them, but neither can the Bundys. I hope reporters will look deeper than "the standoff has highlighted the anger of many Western ranchers and farmers over federal government ownership [that is, the American people's ownership] of vast tracts of land..." There are many western ranchers whose property values keep rising due to the adjacent presence of public lands - and most of them know it.
98
If you want in-depth coverage of issues affecting public land and the West, subscribe to High Country News. They recently published an issue that links together the various anti-government movements prevalent since Obama's election. They posit, as you do in your post, that this is not a Sagebrush Rebellion. It is not really about ranchers. It is a disparate movement of Constitutionalists, self sovereigns, and militia members, some of whom happen to be ranchers, and who rally around ranchers, but whose true shared belief is their despise of the federal governmen.
8
The mugshot in the article is great. You can actually see the defeat in Cliven's eyes. The standoff with the Ranch Stupidians is over. Now take them to jail.
98
@RP Smith - "Ranch Stupidians" - one of the funniest monikers ever. It even tops Y'all Qaeda. Thanks for the guffaws!
11
Our government handled this rather bizarre incident with incredible restraint. I wish police followed the same suit -- back off, let it fizzle out, but don't escalate! These guys were misguided, likely not the smartest folks, and yet passionate. I do not believe it is okay to take over places, with weapons, in the name of protest. This is against the law. If you don't agree with the law, or don't agree that your lawmakers are making the right laws, then you can either vote differently, get more politically active, get self-help (therapy, meds, whatever the professionals suggest) to cope, or relocate geographically. If everyone took up arms in protest, we'd have a fair bit of chaos.
64
Also understand that in a democracy your ideas don't necessarily gain primacy just because they are yours. All prayers are answered, sometimes the answer is "No".
12
It's pathetic that these guys seemed to really believe that thousands of like minded folks would come join their futile protest. I think this is a sort of delusion brought on by spending too much time in an Internet echo chamber where the amplification of an illogical notion starts to feel like reality to a vulnerable and undisciplined mind. It's sad to think that there are others who are so tragically impressed by tax cheat Clivan Bumdy that they might also find their way to jail or suicide-by-cop.
78
Alex Jones and Rush Limbaugh crank them up then let them loose on an unsuspecting population. They only appeal to the severely uneducated and the mentally ill but somehow there are enough of those to keep the hate radio mongers rolling in the dough.
We should start demanding more educated radio and TV programs since it is apparently possible to make smart people stupid just by allowing garbage across the public airwaves. At least 8 studies that I know of have all found that watching Fox News actually makes people stupid, they are less informed than people who watch no news at all!!! How can we expect people to vote for intelligent politicians when the voters are so lacking in intelligence and discernment that that can't make themselves turn the garbage on their radios and TVs off?
We should start demanding more educated radio and TV programs since it is apparently possible to make smart people stupid just by allowing garbage across the public airwaves. At least 8 studies that I know of have all found that watching Fox News actually makes people stupid, they are less informed than people who watch no news at all!!! How can we expect people to vote for intelligent politicians when the voters are so lacking in intelligence and discernment that that can't make themselves turn the garbage on their radios and TVs off?
They want to steal the people's land so they can profit producing a cruel and unnecessary product: meat. Greed and cruelty are not patriotism. Keep public lands public. Eat plants.
29
God bless the Harney County Sheriff and his department, the Oregon State Police and the FBI. Masterfully handled.
52
i agree. I wouldn't have been so patient and nice. A few tanks, helicopters and a few thousand national guard troops would have settled things much quicker, along with jailing Rep. Fiore.
3
The outcome I'd most like to see now? Apart from felony convictions all around and the guarantee none of these criminals will ever legally own a gun again:
We, The People, collect the millions owed to US by senior Bundy of Bunkerville.
We, The People, collect the millions owed to US by senior Bundy of Bunkerville.
131
It certainly took long enough to end this fowl occupation, but I would not have bet it could be done without further injuries or arson. So, thanks Feds -- now, kindly:
1 -- apply this level of restraint routinely, and
2 -- send those vandals to jail with an invoice from the rest of us, covering the full costs of this law enforcement operation caused by their criminal lunatic conspiracy, and
3 -- collect it, and the deadbeat dad's grazing bill, too.
1 -- apply this level of restraint routinely, and
2 -- send those vandals to jail with an invoice from the rest of us, covering the full costs of this law enforcement operation caused by their criminal lunatic conspiracy, and
3 -- collect it, and the deadbeat dad's grazing bill, too.
272
Unfortunately, many rural folks buy into the lie that they are somehow oppressed by the national government, and that they should fight for their liberties, such as second amendment rights, when there are no federal agents hiding in the woods ready to take away their guns.
42
When I protested the federal government's Vietnam policies in the 1960s, I was unarmed, and prepared to be arrested. As to their faux 'militia': theirs was not the militia of the Constitution. I don't think these guys realize that in the Constitution, President Obama is their Command in Chief. These words come *before* the Second Amendment:
"The United States Constitution
Article II
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; "
Neither were they trained, armed or disciplined by the Congress.
If they ever walk free, they should NEVER be allowed to keep and bear arms.
"The United States Constitution
Article II
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; "
Neither were they trained, armed or disciplined by the Congress.
If they ever walk free, they should NEVER be allowed to keep and bear arms.
217
To Hal. You're right. They are not a militia. They are a gang.
6
Your reasoned, intelligent response makes me wish you could instruct the dimwits that inhabit SCOTUS.
8
The over reporting on the status of the white-glove treatment of armed thugs has done a major disservice to the people of Burns and eastern Oregon. No one, outside of the media, cares about a bunch of gun wielding, law breaking OUTSIDERS who are NOT Western ranchers. Their behavior amounts to domestic terrorism, pure and simple.
Kudos to the FBI for showing restraint and ending this peacefully. It went on way too long. I hope the healing can begin for the people of Burns and the federal employees that were threatened. The painfully retrained approach taken by the FBI clearly shows the FBI has learned from past mistakes. The real question is can the media learn to move on? Let's hope so.
Kudos to the FBI for showing restraint and ending this peacefully. It went on way too long. I hope the healing can begin for the people of Burns and the federal employees that were threatened. The painfully retrained approach taken by the FBI clearly shows the FBI has learned from past mistakes. The real question is can the media learn to move on? Let's hope so.
66
Why didn't the CIA director include these nuts in his list of biggest threats to the U.S.? He only included the likes of ISIL and AL Qaeda. Domestic threats don't count in his mind.
1
The CIA does not deal with domestic threats or the assessment there of. That is the job of the FBI. The laws that govern the CIA do not allow them to operate with in the borders of the US.
“I declare war against the federal government,” he said a few minutes later. “I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.” Mr. Fry said his grievances had not been addressed. He claimed his taxes were being used to pay for abortions. “Until you guys address my grievances, I will just sit in here by myself.”
The Hyde Amendment prohibits federal funds from being used to fund abortions. And right there is why Jefferson's insistence that an informed citizenry is essential to a functioning democracy is more important than ever.
The Hyde Amendment prohibits federal funds from being used to fund abortions. And right there is why Jefferson's insistence that an informed citizenry is essential to a functioning democracy is more important than ever.
131
@Elizabeth: The requirement for an informed citizenry applies to you, too. In fact, every one of the 50 states provides public funding for at least some abortions. That is what Fry may have been referring to.
A silly argument. These delusional characters (some from Cinncinnati, Wisconsin.. with long criminal records to boot) and religious zealots are grasping at a bunch of unrelated issues to justify their infantile tantrum / "protest". What does seizing a wildlife refuge have to do with abortions?
5
@Gert, Fry was complaining only about the federal government and, as Elizabeth stated, the federal government is prohibited from funding abortions.
6
Great. The last of Bundy Bandits are in custody.
And the "master mind" and biggest thief is in custody as well.
Now get his free loading cows off of America's property.
And the "master mind" and biggest thief is in custody as well.
Now get his free loading cows off of America's property.
139
Hats off to all the individuals who put patience, psychology, tact and dedication to make things come out peacefully (the one shooting away from the compound notwithstanding). This could have easily been a bloodbath, but that was averted.
34
I am happy that the FBI and local law enforcement had the good sense to use patience, isolation, negotiation, and timing to bring this potentially ultra violent confrontation to an end without a lot of deaths. It's a good model for police departments nationwide. Sometimes standing off and waiting is better than trying to get off the first shot, or the only shot when someone doesn't have a firearm.
22
Could the fact that these guys were white have anything to do with their soft treatment? As a white person, I have to say I truly think that if these people were black and in the inner city, taking over some federal building, they would have been stormed before 8 hours were up and probably killed.
14
Are the Bundy cows still free grazing on our public land? Lets see some photos of how these armed fools left our buildings at the Oregon wildlife refuge. I'm sure they cleaned up before they left.
62
What a waste of taxpayer money. Liberty my eye! These illegal occupants (not protestors and not from Oregon, by the way), are welfare queens, cowboy style, nothing else.
63
The rightwingers in this country have proven time and again that they ARE dangerous. They don't believe in democracy. They want to have everything their way and they're prepared to kill with their high powered weapons if they don't get it. It's time to stop handling them with kid gloves. Let's at least start treating these traitors the way we treat UNARMED minorities in this country, meaning shoot first and ask questions later.
46
I'd rather solve problems with LESS shooting. If I'm to claim that my way of life is better than another's, the I'd better be able to cite the distinctions that illustrate just why and how this is the case.
4
It's very objectionable to see Carl Sagan's picture next to this incitement to lawlessness.
You guys in the rest of the country realize that the occupiers were mostly from outside Oregon, yes? It should be considered that this was an armed occupation talking about "states rights" from people who crossed state lines uninvited. If we weren't in the United States they wouldn't have been able to drive their trucks on Interstate highways to come here. I for one am really glad that many are now in a Portland jail. I do hope all of the Oregon ranchers who dealt peacefully with the authorities can have their voices heard now that the loons are gone.
60
Actually the locals aside from the Hammond family have a good working relationship with the BLM. They don't agree a lot but they worked together.
20
I believe that. It makes me proud to be an Oregonian, even if I'm a (Willamette) Valley girl. : )
2
Perhaps they should be sentenced to a semester course on History of the West, which would explain how the western lands were acquired by the Federal Government.
73
I doubt it would help. These guys incessantly read their annotated copies of the Constitution without ever grasping anything about federal or constitutional law. I don't think they'd get much out of a history textbook either.
6
The idea of a course on the history of the west for these criminals is good -- as long as they are sitting in their jail cells while taking it!
8
The length of any prison sentence should coincide with the time for themto complete the course and pass ( a D will suffice). Give their apparent intellectual prowess, that should keep them locked up for a few years.
2
"I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.”
Mr. Fry, I completely understand. I'm a liberal in Texas.
However, I haven't taken over any government buildings, nor do I have any plans to do so - in my state or any other.
Mr. Fry, I completely understand. I'm a liberal in Texas.
However, I haven't taken over any government buildings, nor do I have any plans to do so - in my state or any other.
420
"I've peacefully voted and nothing is ever done". Well, join the millions of the rest of us who are unhappy with our government (and my reasons are much different than yours but still, I'm unhappy). And none of the rest of us have gone into a federal building with guns to 'stop' our government from doing what we don't want it to do.
And by the way, I really hope all those Native American artifacts are not going to start showing up on eBay. If they do, we'll know you for the thieves you are.
And by the way, I really hope all those Native American artifacts are not going to start showing up on eBay. If they do, we'll know you for the thieves you are.
18
Now the whole Bundy gang will occupy federal buildings and eat on the government dime just like Bundy's cattle.
136
Yes, they are finally getting their Free dumb.
4
Hahaha Brilliant reply... sums up the situation very nicely.
For all their "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" bluster, these rocket scientists brought guns to a sit-in and, for their foolishness, they will lose their "liberty" to own guns at all! This, folks, is a sad example of what conservative America has become: Lots of tough-guy talk, zero forethought, and nothing accomplished but a deeper mess. Genius.
98
Kind of like Michigan changing the water source in Flint to "save" a million dollars. So now they will start with a payment of $360,000,000 to make repairs for the damage!!!
2
It took 40 days but so be it. Thankfully no FBI agents or local cops were shot in the process. To those who argue that these militants should have been forced out sooner, I say take a look at the surroundings there at Malheur NWR and tell us why one single civil servant's life should have been risked in this situation. Law enforcement did an excellent job (although I'm still not sure why they left the electricity on all this time) and now the courts can handle it. Hopefully it will be a while before we see this sort of thing again, but we can be sure it's not the last time...
37
Electricity was left on so they could further hang themselves on social media
5
They were pretty paranoid, I'd guess that the police wanted them to feel less paranoid so didn't act to isolate them from the internet.
3
Because cutting off the electricity would have given credence to their so-called cause, at the very least in the eyes of other like minded individuals....
1
This isn't by any means the end of this movement. I'm afraid it's only the beginning.
The have a martyr now, compatriots going to prison and people looking for the next Malheur.
Seems to me the feds did a great job with what they had to work with.
That's Professionalism.
The have a martyr now, compatriots going to prison and people looking for the next Malheur.
Seems to me the feds did a great job with what they had to work with.
That's Professionalism.
29
"This isn't by any means the end of this movement. I'm afraid it's only the beginning."
I wonder about that. While the media gave them way more attention than they deserved, they never received the support they expected from fellow citizens - that was one of the things they were whining about, that the rest of us didn't leave our jobs and families to come to their support. No support from the rest of us should tell them something if they're smart enough to pay attention.
I wonder about that. While the media gave them way more attention than they deserved, they never received the support they expected from fellow citizens - that was one of the things they were whining about, that the rest of us didn't leave our jobs and families to come to their support. No support from the rest of us should tell them something if they're smart enough to pay attention.
14
That's what these fellas want to think. But most likely it's just their fancy. The self-proclaimed "heroes" in the militia movement, the white supremacists, the others out there with guns and compounds who run around calling each other "colonel" or "kleagle" and the like are no more or less crazy than usual. From time to time they will go out and do something mad and bad because the fantasies that give them meaning or swell their egos tell them to. But that's part of living in a big nation, and has been for a long time now. There are people who keep an eye on them, but sometimes they have to be handled. Kudos to the FBI who did their jobs well in this incident.
4
I think the internet has a lot to do with people like this deluding themselves. It's easy now to find a 'news source' that agrees with any opinion. In worst cases inflammatory rhetoric leads to cases like this.
32
I'm very happy with the restraint the FBI showed in dealing with these self described patriots. Many thought that the correct response would be to show those looking for a fight an overwhelming one and questioned the restraint used. That strategy has proven to be the wisest one ,as aside from one man reaching for a gun with intent to use it, life was held sacred. Well done FBI!
42
I listened to the phone call last night. We have truly become the country of stupid. Perhaps what Donald Trump says is true - "America doesn't win anymore" - but it is more because of people like these morons and Michell Fiore than Barack Obama.
65
and add Michelle Fiore to that pile of dumb and ignorant too
12
The notion that a state legislator could actually support these people is astounding. She should be removed from office.
12
I just cannot find the words to express my chest-bursting pride in knowing that a new Pastor Graham is gloriously ascending to our National Pulpit. Let no man question his readiness to be the new Ambassador to God for our nation and lead us forward to a land of Charia Law.
13
The only reason he gets any attention at all is because his last name is Graham. If he were just another pastor, he wouldn't be able to fill a small church and I suspect he knows it. Hence all this grandstanding.
8
The people in the Oregon stand-off are grandstanders, attention seekers, and self-promoters. They may have some valid issues but they went about voicing them in such a poorly conceived way they hurt their cause. They are NOT patriots or "independent;" free-loaders is closer to the mark IMO.
37
I have two observations. First, these folks and their sympathizers confuse the notion of democracy with the notion that their ideas must be followed. They have the right to espouse their beliefs. They do not have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone. If enough people vote for their beliefs, then those ideas will be enshrined as law. Otherwise, those ideas are in the minority and hold no sway over the majority. They can certainly leave if they do not like that idea. Second, if anyone wants to control land that is now under federal control, they can offer to buy it. As a taxpayer, I, among others in this nation, have "ownership" of these lands. I don't want to give away any of these lands, but I would consider selling if the price is right. I suspect that these citizens do not have the means to purchase these lands (or pay the grazing fees that are due to all of us), which is why they are eager to steal pubic property that belongs to all of us.
71
I wouldn't label these people terrorists but in some ways they are just as foolish in their thinking that they can defy the State. The modern State has too much entrenched power to be violently overthrown or influenced by threats of violent actions. The last successful classic revolution was the Sandinista revolution in 1979 and it was squashed a few years later. The only way change can come about is through an interested, informed and involved electorate. Spouting slogans, myths and bombastic cliches just doesn't cut it.
11
Interesting who law enforcement treats with kid gloves and who law enforcement shoots first and often.
37
Exactly.
4
Liberty or death? Looks like our cowboy hero Fry chose jail. They should have just cordoned off the area and let these silly varmints rot.
17
I understand that many of my fellow citizens in the West and in the South have real antipathy towards the federal government, and that especially in the west, the myth of rugged individualism is at the bedrock of the ethos. As a proud tax and spend liberal, who has a much more communitarian ethos, I want to understand. Why do they feel the federal government is oppressing them? Why do they see grazing fees as a symbol of that oppression? Do they simply disagree wholesale with the notion that the land is held as a trust for all of us, including the non-human creatures who make it their natural habitat? If so, why? And what in the world gave Mr. Fry and the others the impression that the federal agents wanted to kill them? What is at the bottom of this worldview? I invite those who share these views, or who understand where these folks are coming from, to comment. I just want to understand.
35
Many ranches have been using the same grazing rights on Federal land for more than 100 years and as a result they have come to think of it as their own property. Among other things, the Federal government tells them how many cows they can graze on a given portion of land. The protection of endangered species that may live on that land can result in further restrictions on grazing. The reintroduction of wolves on Federal land, on or near their grazing rights is another contested issue. The negative role of the Federal government is hyped and spoon fed by those who politically favor States Rights. The ranchers generally live in areas with low population and are often less well educated; they have no concept that they live in a country with 320 million people.
17
Everything these idiots have said and done because of OUR government is completely wrong. What's the proof? OUR government let this thing go one for hours longer than it ever would have lasted in North Korea, China, Russia, Mexico, or any of a dozen other countries. Now they will be tried by a jury of their peers who will be told, rightly so, that they are innocent until proven guilty. How many of us would be given those same benefits had these "patriots" and their ilk be running OUR country and WE dared protest against THEM?
61
Not a single one of these fully adult and cognitively healthy people could possibly have gotten themselves into this mess, let alone believe any of these ridiculous notions if they understood how to properly use English Grammar.
That is why you had to learn it.
You cannot have a functioning self governing nation if the people cannot communicate effectively.
If you do not understand grammar you are missing large chunks of the conversation. How do you know you suffer this deficit? You will find yourself telling people who kindly point out the correct way to say what you just garbled "you can't tell me what I think."
That is why you had to learn it.
You cannot have a functioning self governing nation if the people cannot communicate effectively.
If you do not understand grammar you are missing large chunks of the conversation. How do you know you suffer this deficit? You will find yourself telling people who kindly point out the correct way to say what you just garbled "you can't tell me what I think."
19
All of these FLDS fundamentalist mormons are home schooled. Their education is very poor and a lot of it is just more insane religious propaganda brainwashing.
5
@magic: I'm not sure what your point is. You seem to be suggesting that well-educated people never get into insoluble political messes or believe ridiculous notions. I beg to differ.
Condescending to these people for their lack of education is not very useful.
Condescending to these people for their lack of education is not very useful.
is there anyone who anyone believes that, if these guys were Black Panthers and had seized a government facility, they would have been treated so gently and provided a forum for airing their hatred? Is there anyone who believes that such Black Panthers would still be alive? If so, please contact me. There's a bridge deal that I'd like to discuss with you.
34
We don't need race baiting here thank you.
3
Or if they were Muslim?
8
It's not race baiting. It's a pertinent and valid question. Thank about the answer.
9
Since the federal government owns about 50% of the land out west, there should be a concerted effort to privatize the land, (excluding national parks). While most of the land is rural, this growing country needs to utilize its resources and avoid unnecessary government ownership and restrictions on the land (e.g., endangers species).
2
You have no idea what your are stating. I have LIVED, WORKED THE LAND AND WITH THE FARMERS of that country in which these people were trying to take from the owners of this country. It takes 10,000 acres of land to raise less than 1000 head of cattle back there. If you have lived and worked the land in that part of the west, correct me for my inappropriate words.
10
The vast majority of us who live here in the west and have a knowledge of this region's history know that privatizing the land which the USA currently protects here from development would be a disaster.
20
As soon as this land is given to these yahoos you will have Koch brother clones coming around with millions of dollars to buy it. You forgot to factor in wealth inequality. If this happened a few billionaires would own all the land instead of the federal government.
19
What a senseless and colossal waste of time and with huge costs to government agencies! Now, step aside and let the activities such as bird watching, etc., resume! Just glad there was no significant martyrdom.
32
After their (hopefully long) prison sentences are over, any monies they earn or may become entitled to should be garnished until the full costs of their "occupation" is re-paid.
130
I listened to the YouTube channel exactly as David surrendered - a fascinating experience indeed.
The gulf between David Fry, his supporters and the rest of us Americans is huge. Somehow they believe that God has chosen them to have a right using and profit of the land. In a bizarre, narcissistic, and twisted way God has chosen them - not me, not a kid in the Bronx, not my mother, not the American Indians. The rest is guilty partaking in cruel government actions that deprives them of the right. They will continue fighting in what they believe is a righteous cause.
The gulf between David Fry, his supporters and the rest of us Americans is huge. Somehow they believe that God has chosen them to have a right using and profit of the land. In a bizarre, narcissistic, and twisted way God has chosen them - not me, not a kid in the Bronx, not my mother, not the American Indians. The rest is guilty partaking in cruel government actions that deprives them of the right. They will continue fighting in what they believe is a righteous cause.
77
"Divine rights" have caused more needless turmoil, death and destruction in my lifetime than I care to recall.
I'm not sure that I understand why a chosen one would even bother to vote. They may well be disappointed with their day in court too.
I'm not sure that I understand why a chosen one would even bother to vote. They may well be disappointed with their day in court too.
18
Hey, a lot of people who "settled" the West believed God had called them to occupy this land. These guys are only the latest in a long chain.
6
"... lot of people who "settled" the West believed God had called them to occupy this land. These guys are only the latest in a long chain."
The difference here is that the settlers worked and worked very hard clearing the land, planting and tending crops, building their own houses, etc. These guys are just a bunch of ignorant loudmouth welfare frauds.
The difference here is that the settlers worked and worked very hard clearing the land, planting and tending crops, building their own houses, etc. These guys are just a bunch of ignorant loudmouth welfare frauds.
9
A 40-day police grace period for these white welfare queen criminals....versus a 4-second police grace period for them before being be arrested and/or shot if they were African Americans.
What a great Whites R Us country.
"Free-dumb !"
"Give me liberty or give me death" ?
How about we just give you an IQ and some job skills and call it even ?
What a great Whites R Us country.
"Free-dumb !"
"Give me liberty or give me death" ?
How about we just give you an IQ and some job skills and call it even ?
401
Context matters, Socrates. Malheur is wide-open wilderness, and though it's precious, there is no reason for law enforcement to go in with guns blazing in this situation. Skin color has nothing to do with it.
4
How about we provide some job skills training to some folks who deserve it rather than these traitors? I'll bet there's a lot of people with average to high IQs where you live who never get the opportunities these dudes had.
6
I think you may have a crack in your crystal ball about the certainty of a different outcome if these people were black.
5
"The standoff has highlighted the anger of many Western ranchers and farmers over federal government ownership of vast tracts of land ..."
Those non-Western ranchers and farmers among us need to highlight our anger at a tiny minority (who have been given so much in government subsidies and support) trying to steal OUR public land and imposing their views on us with GUNS.
Those non-Western ranchers and farmers among us need to highlight our anger at a tiny minority (who have been given so much in government subsidies and support) trying to steal OUR public land and imposing their views on us with GUNS.
441
http://www.hcn.org/issues/48.2/the-hidden-connections-of-the-sagebrush-i...
Some interesting facts at the URL above.
"For starters, precious few locals (or even ranchers) were among the couple dozen occupiers of the Oregon’s Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. The lead occupier, Ammon Bundy, may look the part, but he actually owns a truck-fleet maintenance business in Phoenix and a McMansion in Emmett, Idaho. At one of his press conferences, Bundy said that he wasn’t just sticking up for “the ranchers, the loggers and the farmers,” but also the “auto industry, the health-care industry and financial advisors.” That remark, which ignored the federal largesse those industries receive, revealed the crusade’s true scope".
Some interesting facts at the URL above.
"For starters, precious few locals (or even ranchers) were among the couple dozen occupiers of the Oregon’s Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. The lead occupier, Ammon Bundy, may look the part, but he actually owns a truck-fleet maintenance business in Phoenix and a McMansion in Emmett, Idaho. At one of his press conferences, Bundy said that he wasn’t just sticking up for “the ranchers, the loggers and the farmers,” but also the “auto industry, the health-care industry and financial advisors.” That remark, which ignored the federal largesse those industries receive, revealed the crusade’s true scope".
24
and not curbing their cows on our public land.
5
Those tracts of land were ceded to the federal government in exchange for the rights of statehood.
These four and all the rest should face charges of terrorism. When you are armed it is not a demonstration or protest. I hope Cliven Bundy and all the terrorists get the book thrown at them for their armed occupation of MY land.
519
Not terrorism. Insurrection.
1
In the book, the penalty for treason against the U.S.A. is death.
1
"He claimed his taxes were being used to pay for abortions."
I should have seen that coming. What if I laid siege to Independence Hall here in Philadelphia because my tax dollars are NOT being used to fund abortions and NOT adequately prosecuting those who intimidate persons accessing Planned Parenthood facilities? Do you think the FBI would allow me to hole up there for a month and livestream my grievances? I'll cut Mr. Fry a break and assume he became this unglued due to lack of sleep. My advice, Mr. Fry: get some rest.
I should have seen that coming. What if I laid siege to Independence Hall here in Philadelphia because my tax dollars are NOT being used to fund abortions and NOT adequately prosecuting those who intimidate persons accessing Planned Parenthood facilities? Do you think the FBI would allow me to hole up there for a month and livestream my grievances? I'll cut Mr. Fry a break and assume he became this unglued due to lack of sleep. My advice, Mr. Fry: get some rest.
262
And as we all know (or should), federal tax dollars are NOT used to pay for abortions and haven't been since the Hyde Amendment.
20
I find it amazing that these folks wave the American flag aloft, but refuse to abide by the laws of "the Republic for which is stands".
Either get another flag or respect what the one you're carrying stands for - the Union of these United States. People have died for that flag and the Republic. It don't mean something you just made up.
Either get another flag or respect what the one you're carrying stands for - the Union of these United States. People have died for that flag and the Republic. It don't mean something you just made up.
988
People have died for the Republic. The flag is a piece of cloth that symbolizes it. No one should ever die for a symbol.
Lest you be an adherent of an Abrahamic religion, the Bible expressly forbids the worship of graven images. I'm not, but I still think it's good advice.
Lest you be an adherent of an Abrahamic religion, the Bible expressly forbids the worship of graven images. I'm not, but I still think it's good advice.
Apparently their idea of a perfect America includes giving them preferred status without requiring them do do much work while giving them the free time to spend a couple of months at a time goofing off and occupying land that is owned by people who actually work for a living.
3
Desecration of the flag
it's hard for me to believe these people are rational human beings. then again, 2/3 of new hampshire republican primary voters want to ban any of the 1.6 billion muslims from entering our country. i guess we have wackiness to spare.
59
"A dead man can't talk. A dead man can't write." And "I live in America, not Russia." Three unassailable arguments. The rest: complete drivel. Let's hope we've heard the last. Probably not.
86
And they were so close to toppling the government and putting an end to the tyranny of democracy! So close.
524
“I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.”
Strange, how many of us could say the exact same thing. And yet somehow, I've never even considered taking up a weapon and declaring war on the United States of America.
Strange, how many of us could say the exact same thing. And yet somehow, I've never even considered taking up a weapon and declaring war on the United States of America.
1263
...As I'm sure many, many people also have had in their minds at some point. Yes, most do not take up arms and "declare war on the US" - I mean, how idiotic is that? I can see reactionary fringe groups like Grover Norquist's bunch of kooks - the "National Taxpayers' Union" or veterans' groups who may protest or march, etc. due to things from the long delays in getting medical care from the VA, to the seemingly arbitrary ways veterans w/disabilities get their disability % changed, and other grievances -which are real and, in some cases, long-standing & heinous -and other aggrieved groups. But - the thing of staging some sort of armed "war" against the feds is really insane. How do any of these people think they'll ever come out of it on the winning side? They never do- take a look back; all the way back to the Whiskey Rebellion, from the time of George Washington's presidency! Distillers, etc. who, fed up w/being overtaxed-in their eyes, at least -finally said "NO" and took up arms against the nascent US because the country needed to raise the taxes in order to pay the debts incurred during the revolution - the thing which began the USA. One other thing: the whole argument about "I've tried voting & it gets me nowhere" is not an end in itself. Doesn't have to be, e.g.: if more and more people got out & started voting and we begin to have, say, 60, 70, even 80% turnout, think of the real changes that could be effected! It just takes strength in numbers-the right way!
2
Christ, that was done TO them, not BY them. What's wrong with you?
To those who argue that they need assault weapons to defend against the government, well you just saw how futile that sort of thinking is.
240
We need assualt weapons to protect us from our own home grown terrorists like the Bundy clan and their supporters. They are a bigger danger to all of us.
14
He should vote for Bernie Sanders since everything in the USA will be FREE, FREE, FREE.
1
The FBI and all others who assisted in resolving this crisis must be commended. It is sad that one person died, but considering the potential for bloodshed, this was handled very well. It is a tragedy that, if the grievances have any foundation, which many deny, the discussion will be clouded by the notion that attending to them would be equivalent to responding to terrorist blackmail--which is also true.
469
Agreed, the FBI did good. It's ironic, if the militia wants to talk about injustice and over reach, no better place to look than local police jurisdictions.
14
Jonathan –
Please note that the grievances actually do not have any foundation. You have raised an unnecessary hypothetical.
Please note that the grievances actually do not have any foundation. You have raised an unnecessary hypothetical.
14
Hear hear!!
It WAS handled well! I like to think that no drama Obama has been a pretty good role model here! I can’t even imagine what a President Cruz or Trump would have done? I really can’t!
Thank you federal employees for standing firm but standing down.
Now! These traitorous jerks need to go to Gitmo forever!
It WAS handled well! I like to think that no drama Obama has been a pretty good role model here! I can’t even imagine what a President Cruz or Trump would have done? I really can’t!
Thank you federal employees for standing firm but standing down.
Now! These traitorous jerks need to go to Gitmo forever!
2
It's very sad state we are in. Two men wrongly jailed for fire mitigation. The Federal Government is out of hand. It may take a while to vote the corrupt DC Establishment out.
2
Arson is the West is not "fire mitigation" when you set someone else's land on fire and endangered the people's lives who have to fight these fires. But only in the Real World.
181
Not that I think this particular story has anything to do with government corruption, but I challenge you to show me one government in human history that was free of corruption. I'm sure there's no such thing, and those who come to "clean things out" usually prove to be more corrupt than their predecessors.
48
I guess the trial was fixed? Fire mitgation on land they don't own? Its called arson. Whats corrupt in DC- the fact that public lands can't be raped by ranchers who want to use it for free?
180
In the US, such issues need to be settled in the courts. Otherwise, civilization vanishes and many arguments will only be settled by someone getting killed. I had hoped we were beyond that stage.
350
These people were interviewed by OPB, our NPR affiliate, early in the days of this occupation. They were directly presented this topic, about using courts. They openly admitted that the gist of their grievances about federal control of land had gone through courts long ago -- all the way to the Supreme Court. The SC had ruled in a manner against their reading of the Constitution. And so they just don't accept court authority and try to do what they want anyway. It's juvenile and very dangerous, this armed in-your-face insubordination to law. I'm here in Portland and want to counter-protest (since some of their supporters will be gathering downtown here to support them). But given the gun violence in this country, I'd be stupid if I didn't hesitate about confronting these delusions, NRA-fed extremists.
Waving flags for a country they don't recognize and whose laws they pick and choose to believe and which to not believe. That pretty much tells you how deluded they are. A combination of "sovereign citizen" stuff, fundamentalist mormons, white supremacists and other unbalanced types. If Janet Napolitano had not been so incompetent at Homeland Security we would not be looking at a lot of this today. Give money to the Southern Poverty Law Center since they alone seem to be doing anything about this. Destroy these people like we did the KKK. They are toxic in more ways than one. I hope the charges against all of them continue to mount.
323
I don't think it's accurate nor fair to lay the rise in reactionary conservatism entirely on her shoulders. You forget the vitriolic response from republicans in congress to addressing these groups & their potential for violence after the bombing in Oklahoma City. The republicans especially out west & down south have a long history of association with extremists groups that wouldn't bear closer scrutiny, hence the obstruction of a more comprehensive oversight by self interested politicians & others.
15
Hey - Janet was a really great governor of AZ. I'm still mad at Obama for taking her away - my least favorite thing he has ever done!
4
Had they dark skin, the sand in rural Oregon would be drenched in blood and perhaps glowing green.
Instead, pack up, go home, show's over, thanks for stopping by.
Instead, pack up, go home, show's over, thanks for stopping by.
75
They are not going home; they are going behind bars.
30
You forget that one guy was shot to death by the Oregon State Police.
1
Not really... Black students occupied the university of Missouri and no one was shot and some of their demands were met. Protests by people with dark skin occur all the time without people getting shot. Racism is bad enough. We don't need false assumptions like the one you made added to the argument and distracting from the real challenges.
9
These ranchers plus supporters wanted to use government land without paying the required fees and put up an ineffective protest that got one of their members killed. #Antiproductive
191
"These ranchers... "
They're not ranchers. Ammon Bundy is a truck mechanic. Many of the others were on some form of welfare. Some had ranches but were not efficient enough or smart enough to make a living at it.
They managed to loaf around "occupying" the wildlife refuge for weeks because they didn't really have jobs anyway. Hard working taxpayers kept going to work every day.
They're not ranchers. Ammon Bundy is a truck mechanic. Many of the others were on some form of welfare. Some had ranches but were not efficient enough or smart enough to make a living at it.
They managed to loaf around "occupying" the wildlife refuge for weeks because they didn't really have jobs anyway. Hard working taxpayers kept going to work every day.
65
@Lynn
Thank you for clarifying the difference between ranchers and those who use federal lands for ALL their grazing.
I know the ranchers in Utah and Nevada. On one 100,000 acre ranch they OWNED the land and 25 people lived there and worked HARD. Riding the fence every day, fixing it, looking for lost calves or sick cattle. There were cowboys who stayed in cabins up high in the mountains all winter to keep an eye on the herd. I went on one spring roundup with them. Had a string of horses and “slept” each night with a saddle for a pillow and horse blanket for cover. I was so exhausted and HURT so badly I could barely get up each day! And these guys did it 365/24/7!
They grew their own gardens; the women who didn’t work the ranch worked in town...a 100 mile round trip each day. They HAD to work as most western ranches don’t make much money. Think of that the next time you complain about beef prices!
Bundy et al are sneered at by real ranchers, real cowboys.
Thank you for clarifying the difference between ranchers and those who use federal lands for ALL their grazing.
I know the ranchers in Utah and Nevada. On one 100,000 acre ranch they OWNED the land and 25 people lived there and worked HARD. Riding the fence every day, fixing it, looking for lost calves or sick cattle. There were cowboys who stayed in cabins up high in the mountains all winter to keep an eye on the herd. I went on one spring roundup with them. Had a string of horses and “slept” each night with a saddle for a pillow and horse blanket for cover. I was so exhausted and HURT so badly I could barely get up each day! And these guys did it 365/24/7!
They grew their own gardens; the women who didn’t work the ranch worked in town...a 100 mile round trip each day. They HAD to work as most western ranches don’t make much money. Think of that the next time you complain about beef prices!
Bundy et al are sneered at by real ranchers, real cowboys.
11
Given Mr. Fry's statements, his right to bear arms should be revoked.
393
If he is convicted they will be.
6
It will be as soon as he is convicted of a felony. That should not be difficult.
10
What about a misdemeanor charge for being intentionally, narrowly self-educated?
5
“I’ve peacefully voted and nothing is ever done.”
Dude! take a number and get in line. that's how many of us feel about the pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-regulation crowd. this is a messy, majority (even if by a thin line)-ruled democracy. very few people will get their way over every issue.
Dude! take a number and get in line. that's how many of us feel about the pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-regulation crowd. this is a messy, majority (even if by a thin line)-ruled democracy. very few people will get their way over every issue.
1233
He needs a Snickers bar. Maybe a case of Snickers bars.
3
The pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-regulation crowd consists of AMERICANS. Get out.
1
cjhsa: Yes, everyone saw how "American" they were.
16
his choice was “liberty or death.” Ultimately he gave himself up without a fight.
I guess he chose a jail cell over a coffin.
I guess he chose a jail cell over a coffin.
63
I'd like to opt out of paying for wars in the Middle East and tax breaks for corporations. Please remove these items from my tax bill, thanks.
650
Sorry, voting and asking doesn't work. Try an unproductive, armed occupation of Manhattan. Shout that you can't take it anymore. Maybe you can get some free grazing rights in Central Park as part of the concession, too.
13
LOL, right? I mean, that is the way a democracy works. You don't get everything you want or like, but if you don't like it, then either accept it (get therapy!), or change countries. Taking up arms to protest how the government works is not American. It's being an armed baby.
21
No bail. Homeland Security terrorist charges for all.
552
Alas, 'happy-trigger' law-enforcement guys are in the forefront, from Ruby Ridge to Waco, eager to demonstrate their authority to the nation.