I do not support Mr. Trump. That said, I find it stereotyping to comment in this article (as well as others) that 80% of Mr. Trump's supporters lack a college degree. The implication is that this diminishes their common sense or ability to understand issues. Meanwhile, the majority of blacks support Democrats, yet the majority of blacks lack a college education. I cannot recall a NYTimes article commenting on black voters who support Ms. Clinton lacking a college education. Perhaps I missed it.
1
The premise is correct. What is missing is that Trump has become a predictable bore. Even the Kardashians got dumped off the stage. Donald will fall like Humpty Dumpty and all the workers in China will not be able to reassemble him. http://www.wrobertweller.blogspot.nl
You said Trump (and Sanders) must win out "over more traditional contenders" like "Ted Cruz"??? What are you smoking? Cruz is so far to the right he makes Trump look like Fidel Castro!
1
The conservative Right is jealous of the stolid determination of the Hillary-at-all-costs crew. Why can't We get that kind of attitude from our Majority Leaders instead of the slippery and complaisant John Borhner and Mitch McConnell?
2
"We"?? And with a capital "W," no less! But to answer your question, I think any sane Republicans have come to realize that "leading" you people is a lot like the job of a camp counselor managing a herd of juvenile delinquents.
2
I've been a staunch Hillary supporter from the gitgo because I so much want our first female President, and I respect her. But watching Bernie on tv giving a speech tonight, he won my heart. It's his passion which distinguishes him from Hillary, and Clinton fatigue.
7
Of course, had you supported Carly Fiorina all the way to the White House, you could also celebrate the millions of new jobs that she can create for all kinds of Americans.
1
There is all too much irony in seeing Justin Holihan's large pickup truck in the photo while just a few paragraphs below he is complaining about barely being able to pay his bills. Perhaps this is a company vehicle but if not, it just goes to show people who live above their ability but complain about their difficulties.
Bernie Sanders is an extremely dangerous candidate who will only further divide the country by continuing to play the jealous of thy neighbor card. Far left wing economic concepts are crumbing in the countries that had Bernie-esk trials long before the U.S. began its dangerous dance with such notions. A vote for anyone other than Bernie may very well be a vote to keep some sense of sanity in the future economic outlook for the U.S. Otherwise, rest assured a flight of capital and companies will accelerate post election.
Bernie Sanders is an extremely dangerous candidate who will only further divide the country by continuing to play the jealous of thy neighbor card. Far left wing economic concepts are crumbing in the countries that had Bernie-esk trials long before the U.S. began its dangerous dance with such notions. A vote for anyone other than Bernie may very well be a vote to keep some sense of sanity in the future economic outlook for the U.S. Otherwise, rest assured a flight of capital and companies will accelerate post election.
3
Trump vs Sanders will be a true choice of different visions.
Cruz is downright frightening, far more radical than most people realize. A man who has gone his entire life without making any friends and who is hated by his colleagues is exhibiting a severely disordered view of life.
It is hard to tell who Hillary Clinton actually is, other than a person with a burning, lifelong desire to be president. It was Socrates who observed several centuries ago that the person who craves power the most is the least worthy of being leader.
Cruz is downright frightening, far more radical than most people realize. A man who has gone his entire life without making any friends and who is hated by his colleagues is exhibiting a severely disordered view of life.
It is hard to tell who Hillary Clinton actually is, other than a person with a burning, lifelong desire to be president. It was Socrates who observed several centuries ago that the person who craves power the most is the least worthy of being leader.
3
An in depth report on Trump supporters across the U.S.:
https://www.revealnews.org
Are they angry? Fearful? Or both?
https://www.revealnews.org
Are they angry? Fearful? Or both?
1
Thanks to Badjournalist1234 for reminding us below to keep an eye on The Intercept.
Here's Pres. Clinton commending Bernie's Single Payer system in 2009 (before he was against it):
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/25/watch-bill-clinton-defend-bernie-san...
The site then informs that in the ensuing years "both Clintons have taken millions of dollars in speaking fees from the health care industry. According to public disclosures, Hillary Clinton alone, from 2013 to 2015, made $2,847,000 from 13 paid speeches to the industry.
"This past summer, former president Clinton was the keynote speaker at America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), the health insurance lobbying group that spent $100 million fighting health reform.
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/13/hillary-clinton-single-payer/
(Reasons to be angry, 1,2,3...).
Yes the Clintons are very smart, but not always with our best interests in mind.
Excepting those who personally profit from the unscrupulous health insurance industry (which we're reminded makes money by denying benefits & manufacturing paperwork) we should all be feelin' the Bern!
Here's Pres. Clinton commending Bernie's Single Payer system in 2009 (before he was against it):
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/25/watch-bill-clinton-defend-bernie-san...
The site then informs that in the ensuing years "both Clintons have taken millions of dollars in speaking fees from the health care industry. According to public disclosures, Hillary Clinton alone, from 2013 to 2015, made $2,847,000 from 13 paid speeches to the industry.
"This past summer, former president Clinton was the keynote speaker at America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), the health insurance lobbying group that spent $100 million fighting health reform.
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/13/hillary-clinton-single-payer/
(Reasons to be angry, 1,2,3...).
Yes the Clintons are very smart, but not always with our best interests in mind.
Excepting those who personally profit from the unscrupulous health insurance industry (which we're reminded makes money by denying benefits & manufacturing paperwork) we should all be feelin' the Bern!
2
Bernie and his staunch, enthusiastic supporters are working to strengthen the middle class and democracy against the entrenched Establishment.
Do you know that Jeff Bezos (who owns the Washington Post and Amazon) and Bill Gates are heavily invested in the healthcare sector and are aggressively against single payer healthcare?
--Monsanto, along with the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, are just two of
181corporations and other interests who donated to the Clinton Foundation
while she was secretary of state. According to donation records, the Bill & Melinda
Gates Foundation - which funds global vaccine distribution - has donated at least $26 million to the Clinton charity, though records appear to be incomplete so the amount could be higher.--
http://www.naturalnews.com/050...
---- Media Attacking Single-Payer Are Getting Paid Under Current Health System ----
Can anyone imagine Comcast– or Bezos-owned publications circling the wagons for single payer as aggressively as they did against it? Such a scene would be unimaginable—yet here we are, meant to believe all of these objective, policy-driven pundits arrived at basically the same pro-status quo conclusions, entirely independent of the overwhelming material factors at work. http://www.commondreams.org/vi...
feelthebern.org *** Bernie’s WebSite explaining the issues—click on a block
Do you know that Jeff Bezos (who owns the Washington Post and Amazon) and Bill Gates are heavily invested in the healthcare sector and are aggressively against single payer healthcare?
--Monsanto, along with the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, are just two of
181corporations and other interests who donated to the Clinton Foundation
while she was secretary of state. According to donation records, the Bill & Melinda
Gates Foundation - which funds global vaccine distribution - has donated at least $26 million to the Clinton charity, though records appear to be incomplete so the amount could be higher.--
http://www.naturalnews.com/050...
---- Media Attacking Single-Payer Are Getting Paid Under Current Health System ----
Can anyone imagine Comcast– or Bezos-owned publications circling the wagons for single payer as aggressively as they did against it? Such a scene would be unimaginable—yet here we are, meant to believe all of these objective, policy-driven pundits arrived at basically the same pro-status quo conclusions, entirely independent of the overwhelming material factors at work. http://www.commondreams.org/vi...
feelthebern.org *** Bernie’s WebSite explaining the issues—click on a block
4
Breaking news - Having found Sanders, Diogenes ends search for honest man.
2
Hold the champagne: get your guy to explain where the money is coming from. The 7% of the budget going for debt service is about to triple.
Trump, Cruz and Rubio are truly scary people and yet 'conservatives are buying into their hate! Trump extols the birth of his grandchild being born in Iowa! Cruz and Rubio are blessing every as if jesus talks directly to them and only excepts 'christian' values! What about the rest of we little guys who don't except their nonsense? This little guy is making plans to move 'off the grid' if any of these fascists becomes president!
2
Sanders and Trump supporters are using anger to make their decision about who should be the next president. When I am angry, I wait until I cool down and make a rational decision.
Which is why I am voting for Hillary.
Which is why I am voting for Hillary.
I am not angry, I am frustrated and disappointed that big business interests run this country and only if you have enough money can you afford to run for president because of your billionaire donors.
I don't need to wait for Hillary to catch up.
I am voting voting for Sanders because he is not tied to Wall Street.
I don't need to wait for Hillary to catch up.
I am voting voting for Sanders because he is not tied to Wall Street.
1
Dear S. Iyama: Well said. I cast my first vote for Hillary in 2000 for Senate. I supported her before Barack in 2008. I look forward, as our nominee, of voting for her in April (our primary) and November. Cool, calm and collected.
DD
Manhattan
DD
Manhattan
1
Dear Manderine: Sanders may not be as connected to Wall Street as others who are running, but if you think that whether directly or indirectly we are not all in some way connected with the financial well-being of this nation, then I wish you well.
It is not Wall Street per se which bothers me. It is, like most things which go wrong, the fault of a few and laws written which are filled with more holes than Swiss cheese. Republicans believe and vote to put in these loopholes more so than do Democrats.
With Hillary as President and Senators Sanders and Warren having more clout in an H. Clinton Administration I think that would be a healthy step forward in rectifying many of The Street's ills.
DD
Manhattan
It is not Wall Street per se which bothers me. It is, like most things which go wrong, the fault of a few and laws written which are filled with more holes than Swiss cheese. Republicans believe and vote to put in these loopholes more so than do Democrats.
With Hillary as President and Senators Sanders and Warren having more clout in an H. Clinton Administration I think that would be a healthy step forward in rectifying many of The Street's ills.
DD
Manhattan
1
What's going on at the NYT, is an attempt to marginalize Sanders, and vilify Trump.
7
The fact that voters feel ripped off & ignored on both political sides makes geniuses of all those people who have been saying that the REAL political war is between Washington, D.C. and its surrounding counties, and the rest of the U.S.A.
Dear L'OA: Despite those perceptions, it is not only those in the Washington Beltway and the power brokers on Wall Street who control this fragile Union and keep it from tearing asunder who are completely at fault. There are those folks out there in The Hinterlands, most of whom choose to abstain from even such a simple task as voting, instead they cast a vote of apathy and blame that horrible axis of evil which lies in the Northeast Corridor.
Until people decide to take action instead of just venting their distaste by griping and civics laziness then all hope will be lost. Ralph Nader said it best many moons ago: There is nothing the American people cannot demand the right to have, it's just that they don't seem to want much of anything.
DD
Manhattan
Until people decide to take action instead of just venting their distaste by griping and civics laziness then all hope will be lost. Ralph Nader said it best many moons ago: There is nothing the American people cannot demand the right to have, it's just that they don't seem to want much of anything.
DD
Manhattan
3
You are right. The many who will vote for the one closest to their position are always stunned at the intransigence of the 5 or 10 million here or there who refuse to dance unless it is THEIR song being played.
Then the 3rd party guys like Perot or Nader insist on running even though there is no chance that they will even intimidate that windmill, much less kill it.
They are going to tilt at it anyway.
Then the 3rd party guys like Perot or Nader insist on running even though there is no chance that they will even intimidate that windmill, much less kill it.
They are going to tilt at it anyway.
1
What is clear is that most american believe that big corporations, wall street, big media, big defense contractors , big pharma and healthcare have rigged the deck. Candidates like Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio are just jockeys for the monied and influential. And the New York Time is part of the big establishment, part of the problem with its editorial biased for monied interests and existing power brokers.
4
@sense
No offense, but it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out what you say is true. The fact is, we live in a Capitalist society where Big Money matters, and is what makes the wheel go around. It can bring about a change for the better, or no change at all. And this is even something Mr. Sanders, in his infinite wisdom knows is true.
No offense, but it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out what you say is true. The fact is, we live in a Capitalist society where Big Money matters, and is what makes the wheel go around. It can bring about a change for the better, or no change at all. And this is even something Mr. Sanders, in his infinite wisdom knows is true.
1
The reporter here, John Leland, writes this about Trump and Sanders: "Supporters are drawn to what they see as their independence, and a lack of pandering"
Ironic, because both men are master panderers. Both have perfect pitch, and know exactly what to tell their followers in order to take control of their minds and emotions, and enlist them in a mass movement.
It reminds me of the film, "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers."
Ironic, because both men are master panderers. Both have perfect pitch, and know exactly what to tell their followers in order to take control of their minds and emotions, and enlist them in a mass movement.
It reminds me of the film, "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers."
4
Trump will take Iowa, but Rubio will eventually get the GOP nod. He's the only candidate that has a chance against Clinton.
1
Until we hear what we are going to hear from the FBI investigation. Then, you could beat Hillary yourself.
4
Then the ego manic will run as a third party candidate. Trump won't give in to Rubio. He has his supporters.
2
Dear L'OA: Among Hillary's loyal supporters, to paraphrase The inimitable Donald, she could shoot someone in Chappaqua and still get my and many others vote. 'Tis the wild and wacky state of politics today, old boy. Positively crazed, isn't it?
DD
Manhattan
DD
Manhattan
2
Some people don't want to see a Goldman candidate. Both parties have a Goldman candidate. Clinton and Cruz have deep Goldman connections.
Explain what a "deep" connection is ?
If I pay money to watch the Knicks play, do I have a "deep' connection to the Knicks ?
Can I ring up Phil Jackson and tell him how to run the team ?
If I pay money to watch the Knicks play, do I have a "deep' connection to the Knicks ?
Can I ring up Phil Jackson and tell him how to run the team ?
Dear T. Magnum: Deep connections? Exactly how deep is deep? And what precisely does that entail? Please do describe in more detail.
Goldman Sachs has its foundation and a very deep connection originally to New York Jewish bankers. Is there something wrong with that specifically? Is there some particular trait GS has which rankles your sense of American values? Perhaps New York values? Do tell.
DD
Manhattan
Goldman Sachs has its foundation and a very deep connection originally to New York Jewish bankers. Is there something wrong with that specifically? Is there some particular trait GS has which rankles your sense of American values? Perhaps New York values? Do tell.
DD
Manhattan
Trumpist 'anger' is a completely made up phenomenon.
Trump is not himself daft (if Machiavellian tactics are considered smart), but the 'anger' in his supporters definitely is.
The Trumpists are absolutely being played, and he's playing your worst most anti-political, anti-intelligent impulses like a real-estate deal.
There was never political or legal legitimacy to 'Birtherism', which was Trump's play to martial the misplaced hatred of a nonwhite president who was so vastly smarter than his predecessors.
And there is no political legitimacy to his Hadrian's wall or deporting a million people, or re-invading Iraq to' take the oil' any more than there's any legitimacy to 'carpet-bombing' Arabs or making the 'sands glow'.
This is all just hyperbolic irrational rabblerousing keenly calculated to inflame bigotry in service of Trump's & Cruz's personal ambitions.
Limbaugh-land is being played for fools, again.
Trump is not himself daft (if Machiavellian tactics are considered smart), but the 'anger' in his supporters definitely is.
The Trumpists are absolutely being played, and he's playing your worst most anti-political, anti-intelligent impulses like a real-estate deal.
There was never political or legal legitimacy to 'Birtherism', which was Trump's play to martial the misplaced hatred of a nonwhite president who was so vastly smarter than his predecessors.
And there is no political legitimacy to his Hadrian's wall or deporting a million people, or re-invading Iraq to' take the oil' any more than there's any legitimacy to 'carpet-bombing' Arabs or making the 'sands glow'.
This is all just hyperbolic irrational rabblerousing keenly calculated to inflame bigotry in service of Trump's & Cruz's personal ambitions.
Limbaugh-land is being played for fools, again.
2
More NYT Propaganda
Characterizations of "angry" white guys at the core of Bernie & Trump support rather than a deep thoughtful recognition of the corruption and outing of the Clinton / Bush Establishment Party suits the NYT megaphone
Characterizations of "angry" white guys at the core of Bernie & Trump support rather than a deep thoughtful recognition of the corruption and outing of the Clinton / Bush Establishment Party suits the NYT megaphone
4
You're doing a way better job of characterizing the "angry" white guy than the Times.
The difference between Trump's anger and Sanders' is that Trump bases his appeal on hatred -- uniting his followers into hating blacks, Hispanics, immigrants, Muslims, Rosie O'Donnell and any other women Donald doesn't like that day . . . . .
He's not about solutions -- he exists merely to fuel hatred and anger.
I've never heard Sanders use the kind of hateful comments and personal attacks that are Trump's stock in trade.
He's not about solutions -- he exists merely to fuel hatred and anger.
I've never heard Sanders use the kind of hateful comments and personal attacks that are Trump's stock in trade.
5
I am not "feeling the bern" after looking at Bernies tax tables over at voterscorecard com. Everyone including those living below the federal poverty line will be paying higher taxes. Any politician that tries to justify raising taxes on those making less than 11k poverty line or 50k for that matter should be be publicly shunned.
2
Wow what a news flash that the the new york times supports Crooked Hillary. After all, they have to keep the revolving door open and their BIG WALL STREET CRONIES happy. I do not read nor listen to the new york times. I read the truth on THE INTERCEPT!! Next up, I will address your piggy brother the washington post. Also your friends at CNN.
5
The Bern is finally making her feel the heat!!!! Today on the talk shows he Said her emails were a "very serious issue". Give it to her Bernie!!! Go Bernie Go!
3
I'm feeling the Bern and it's not from anger but concern.
Our country has been hijacked by big business. This harms all of us, rich and poor alike. Government agencies such as the FDA and EPA, which are supposed to safeguard our environment, food and drugs have been gutted and stripped. Very little research is done that is not polluted by ties to big business. This touches every single aspect of our lives, from the water we drink to our wages, medicine, investments, ability to defend our right legally - everything.
We need a government whose priority is the public good, not private pockets. To enable that we need massive reforms in how our officials are elected. This requires an intelligent redesign. Bernie gets this.
Our country has been hijacked by big business. This harms all of us, rich and poor alike. Government agencies such as the FDA and EPA, which are supposed to safeguard our environment, food and drugs have been gutted and stripped. Very little research is done that is not polluted by ties to big business. This touches every single aspect of our lives, from the water we drink to our wages, medicine, investments, ability to defend our right legally - everything.
We need a government whose priority is the public good, not private pockets. To enable that we need massive reforms in how our officials are elected. This requires an intelligent redesign. Bernie gets this.
7
The only thing that binds Trump & Sanders voters, is their outspoken opposition to our current form of government; and the vehemence of their supporters. Otherwise, they couldn't be further apart on almost every level.
1
Although it continues to use the phrase it's nice that the NYT has noticed that it's dismissive label of "angry outsiders" no longer serves to mask the important political distinctions between Trump and Bernie - not that we needed them to point these things out. I think it comes of the realization that they're not going to go away, despite the corporate media's attempts to first ignore, then ridicule both of them, so I suspect that the publisher/editors reluctantly decided that they'd better pay a little closer attention to their political differences. The ruling class and it's press organs has always been uneasy with genuine populism in general - as opposed to the faux kind that corporate politicians deploy at election time - since populist ideology is a half-way house to class analysis and class consciousness, and that sort of thing is a threat to the neoliberal order capitalists have spent the last 40 years imposing on ordinary working people in the form of permanent austerity. It's too soon to tell when real, politically independent social movements with radical demands will emerge amidst the increasing social instability that neoliberal economics unintentionally creates, but their emergence is essential if this populist moment, which is still confined to the corporate-dominated electoral system, is to develop into a revolutionary social force that can make fundamental change that benefits the majority of the population.
4
Most Americans might be interested to know that the $889 million that the Koch boys spent on these elections is, to them, not the maximum amount spent. These Corn Pone Kings consider the government to be spending more on the elections from programs like SS, Medicare and Medicaid. All of which the Koch boys seem to love to pretend are not paid for by individual taxpayers.
As for the Great White Angry Men Trump and Cruz...does it not occur to them that their "anger" is boring the rest of us? When men of this age walk around angry at everything all the time, are they mentally stable?
Who needs a government full of MORE angry men? If we thought Bolton of the shoe banging on the UN desk was bad, we were sorely mistaken..Issa did his best at scowling and acting out during Benghazi investigations. Follow by his attack dog compatriot, Gowdy and the Last Angry Man, Cotton. One might suppose that at least Chaffetz kept his cool while slicking up the evidence against Planned Parenthood.
Yep..just what America needs, strutting, swaggering, drawling overindulged spoiled middle aged men all pulling tantrums like the US government is a nursery school. How about a little "grow up" for a change?
As for the Great White Angry Men Trump and Cruz...does it not occur to them that their "anger" is boring the rest of us? When men of this age walk around angry at everything all the time, are they mentally stable?
Who needs a government full of MORE angry men? If we thought Bolton of the shoe banging on the UN desk was bad, we were sorely mistaken..Issa did his best at scowling and acting out during Benghazi investigations. Follow by his attack dog compatriot, Gowdy and the Last Angry Man, Cotton. One might suppose that at least Chaffetz kept his cool while slicking up the evidence against Planned Parenthood.
Yep..just what America needs, strutting, swaggering, drawling overindulged spoiled middle aged men all pulling tantrums like the US government is a nursery school. How about a little "grow up" for a change?
3
@Whitaker
Bernie Sanders can also be included in your "Great Angry White Men" trope.
His lockstep-supporters come across as nothing short of rabid. The only thing missing are the torches and pitchforks. Too much anger--kills the message.
Bernie Sanders can also be included in your "Great Angry White Men" trope.
His lockstep-supporters come across as nothing short of rabid. The only thing missing are the torches and pitchforks. Too much anger--kills the message.
2
N.Smith,
name one person against whom Bernie Sanders has made an ad-hominem attack. He sticks to the issues.
"Lockstep-supporters" is itself an ugly insinuation, along with classifying us as "rabid". Like Bernie, we care about issues.
name one person against whom Bernie Sanders has made an ad-hominem attack. He sticks to the issues.
"Lockstep-supporters" is itself an ugly insinuation, along with classifying us as "rabid". Like Bernie, we care about issues.
1
@nom de guerre
I do NOT take exception to Mr. Sanders on the issues. In fact, I applaud him on many of them. My problem is with the adverse, and often rude response from his quarter. And if you read the comments under the NYT Clinton Endorsement on 1/30/2016, you will understand what I mean by "lock-step supporters".
Just for the record, I too care about the issues. But at this point, what concerns me most is the feasibility of having a Republican in the White House. Good Luck to us all.
I do NOT take exception to Mr. Sanders on the issues. In fact, I applaud him on many of them. My problem is with the adverse, and often rude response from his quarter. And if you read the comments under the NYT Clinton Endorsement on 1/30/2016, you will understand what I mean by "lock-step supporters".
Just for the record, I too care about the issues. But at this point, what concerns me most is the feasibility of having a Republican in the White House. Good Luck to us all.
1
Great article, fascinating comparison and analysis.
And refreshingly non-partisan, rare for the Times, which I'm sure will garner little praise!
Thanks, Mr Leland.
And refreshingly non-partisan, rare for the Times, which I'm sure will garner little praise!
Thanks, Mr Leland.
2
What is happening in America has nothing to do with an evolving populist independence - that might imply a functioning democracy. The Republican Party has adopted racial hate-mongering as well as disrespect for a woman's rights to seek healthcare on her own terms. Most importantly - and different from previous eras, massive amounts of money from the Kochs and others is used to push out any moderates who don’t toe the right wing line.
The GOP created this highly polarized atmosphere that Trump- a true carnival barker, is profiting from. To compare Trump to Sanders who has worked diligently for decades to push progressive causes as just another populist is a huge error. Voters who say they will vote for Trump if Bernie doesn't get the nod are also insulting everything Bernie stands for.
The GOP created this highly polarized atmosphere that Trump- a true carnival barker, is profiting from. To compare Trump to Sanders who has worked diligently for decades to push progressive causes as just another populist is a huge error. Voters who say they will vote for Trump if Bernie doesn't get the nod are also insulting everything Bernie stands for.
3
The anger that Trump and Sanders voters might share is in our contempt for all the media manipulation we're seeing in this election cycle. Trump went after Faux News and Sanders' supporters like me want the New York Times to stop sliming Bernie Sanders. Enough is truly enough!
2
Make no mistake - this election is not Republicans vs. Democrats. It's Establishment vs. the rest of us - Elites vs. the Middle Class.
Both sides have their champions, but only one truly represents the Middle Class - the backbone of this nation. You'd better pray Bernie wins, or we're headed towards becoming another Mexico.
Both sides have their champions, but only one truly represents the Middle Class - the backbone of this nation. You'd better pray Bernie wins, or we're headed towards becoming another Mexico.
2
And you'd better pray for what's left of the Middle-class. It may still exist in Fort Collins, CO, but it's too late for New York City. Not even Sanders can fix that.
2
Trump or Sanders is far better for this country in different ways. Trump is for sure the only candidate that is focused on growing jobs and creating wealth for all that want to earn it. Bernie is for social equality and spreading the wealth. Both offer the country a different direction. The rest are all for themselves or "criminals" in the case of Clinton and offer nothing more than the status quo.
1
Look closely at the conservative and right wing voter.
Fox News and hate speech is where they get their attitudes and talking points which are Reinforced daily.
Future historians will chart the fall of the American Democracy to the beginning of hate speech and Fox "News". Hate seems to come across better than policy.
Fox News and hate speech is where they get their attitudes and talking points which are Reinforced daily.
Future historians will chart the fall of the American Democracy to the beginning of hate speech and Fox "News". Hate seems to come across better than policy.
3
New York Times - you need to stop comparing Sanders and Trump. One of them is a showman, the other is a passionate crusader for economic equality. You're alienating your readers with stories like these, losing their trust and their readership.
10
"Even if they were not personally affected by the economic downturn, Mr. Sanders’s supporters worried about the growing inequality in wealth and income......'He stands for everything I believe in,' said Alex Curtis, 19, who traveled six hours from Nebraska to hear Mr. Sanders speak last Sunday in Fayette, Iowa. “He’s going to restore the American dream and bring class mobility.”
--------------------
One can see how finance capital is inclined to donate to other campaigns.
But hasn't the idea of "class mobility" completely replaced the old core liberal appeal to "equality of opportunity" ?
That huge transition of language is made clear in the Sanders campaign and if it denotes a historical shift in political consciousness, that demands analysis for some deeper understanding of America's political future.
--------------------
One can see how finance capital is inclined to donate to other campaigns.
But hasn't the idea of "class mobility" completely replaced the old core liberal appeal to "equality of opportunity" ?
That huge transition of language is made clear in the Sanders campaign and if it denotes a historical shift in political consciousness, that demands analysis for some deeper understanding of America's political future.
1
After the past seven years of living under a dictator, is to any wonder that Americans are fed up with career politicians?
2
@Vorenious
What on earth are you talking about? -- If you have ever lived in a land ruled by a Dictator, you would most certainly know that we are not, nor have we been living under one. Get real.
What on earth are you talking about? -- If you have ever lived in a land ruled by a Dictator, you would most certainly know that we are not, nor have we been living under one. Get real.
4
This is one the lowest level assessments I've seen in the times regarding the lumping Bernie and Trump in one article from this angle.
Here is one true premise and the only true premise in this article: Mr. Sanders’s supporters tended to blame the campaign finance system for Washington dysfunction; and Trump supporters complained about the constant request for donations - isn't this the same thing? What the Times doesn't seem to want to convey is that IT IS the election process itself which has brought us to the sad place we are in. BIG MONEY has created a system which no longer serves the people. The huge difference between Trump and Bernie is that Trump escalates fear, anger, racism & sexism. Bernie is inspiring a real democratic movement for change and addressing the very real issues that are plaguing the US. I am often disappointed by the NYT's assessments for their lack of insight and lack of connecting the dots in any meaningful way. You are clearly working for Hillary and not the American People.
Shame on you!
Here is one true premise and the only true premise in this article: Mr. Sanders’s supporters tended to blame the campaign finance system for Washington dysfunction; and Trump supporters complained about the constant request for donations - isn't this the same thing? What the Times doesn't seem to want to convey is that IT IS the election process itself which has brought us to the sad place we are in. BIG MONEY has created a system which no longer serves the people. The huge difference between Trump and Bernie is that Trump escalates fear, anger, racism & sexism. Bernie is inspiring a real democratic movement for change and addressing the very real issues that are plaguing the US. I am often disappointed by the NYT's assessments for their lack of insight and lack of connecting the dots in any meaningful way. You are clearly working for Hillary and not the American People.
Shame on you!
14
This piece draws a false equivalence that demeans members of the electorate with (justifiable) concerns and also demeans the serious campaign of Senator Sanders by pairing it with the circus run by Mr. Trump. Please, stop with the "angry voters" trope.
6
Why are the racial demographics of each campaign's supporters more important than the actual content of each candidate's positions? The two candidates are NOTHING like each other.
5
@Pupnick
The racial demographics are important because it also reflects the mass appeal of the message, and the likelihood of who will be casting the votes. Without a viable electorate, it makes no difference who the candidates are, or how dissimilar they might be from each other.
The racial demographics are important because it also reflects the mass appeal of the message, and the likelihood of who will be casting the votes. Without a viable electorate, it makes no difference who the candidates are, or how dissimilar they might be from each other.
1
What do you mean by a "viable electorate" and, honestly, what does race have to do with it? Is a "viable electorate" only one that prefers Establishment candidates?
1
@Pupnick
In response to your comment regarding the importance of "racial demographics"; I only use the term 'viable electorate' to illustrate the importance of having a racially inclusive voter-base.
This has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are pro, or anti-Establishment.
In response to your comment regarding the importance of "racial demographics"; I only use the term 'viable electorate' to illustrate the importance of having a racially inclusive voter-base.
This has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are pro, or anti-Establishment.
1
People are angry and with good reason. However in both cases, I think, their anger is misdirected. We live in a country that has a governing system of checks and balances, it needs all citizens to be responsible and participate in the process. We the people allowed this country to become as it is today and we the people need to take responsibility for our negligence. It is the duty of every voting age citizen to vote; people fought and died for that right. Yet year after year we give away our power and allow politicians who do not represent us, and big business to form a tight knit union that is strangling us.
Supporters of Sanders and Trump seem to believe that their candidate will wave a magic wand to make all of our troubles disappear. Sander’s garnishes support through speaking of very real disparity that is plaguing our nation while Trump panders to fear and bigotry.
When looking at our candidates we need to remember there are three “equal” branches of government: Legislative, Executive, Judicial; we must give equal consideration and thought to all three. Keep in mind that four of our Supreme Court Justices are over the age of 70; the candidate we elect will be appointing replacements. For those who are still reeling from Citizens United, Wal-Mart v. Duke, and Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, let’s remember less anger, more thought and a great amount of care should be taken when we step into the voting booth this November.
Supporters of Sanders and Trump seem to believe that their candidate will wave a magic wand to make all of our troubles disappear. Sander’s garnishes support through speaking of very real disparity that is plaguing our nation while Trump panders to fear and bigotry.
When looking at our candidates we need to remember there are three “equal” branches of government: Legislative, Executive, Judicial; we must give equal consideration and thought to all three. Keep in mind that four of our Supreme Court Justices are over the age of 70; the candidate we elect will be appointing replacements. For those who are still reeling from Citizens United, Wal-Mart v. Duke, and Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, let’s remember less anger, more thought and a great amount of care should be taken when we step into the voting booth this November.
15
And in the same way, the Democratic establishment are basically the same as the Republican establishment. Both have majority male candidates, and neither fundamentally believes the current political system is flawed. To be sure, there are "significant differences" between the two, but I think the title to my editorial should focus on what is more important.
"DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND REPUBLIC PARTY: BASICALLY THE SAME THING."
"DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND REPUBLIC PARTY: BASICALLY THE SAME THING."
2
One of the interviewees in this article worries that it will take a revolution to bring real change to the United States. He shouldn't be worrying. He should be hoping that it will take place. Only a revolution will transform the United States from being a country where greedy self-focused CEO's demand salaries that are hundreds of times that of their employees. A revolution? Bring it on!
5
Let's get in our time machine and go to the future; Trump or Hillary or Sanders have been elected and one year afterwards . . . What's changed? Nothing!
The three questions no candidate will answer is: How do we measure change? What makes a leader effective? If positive changes don't occur, what next?
The three questions no candidate will answer is: How do we measure change? What makes a leader effective? If positive changes don't occur, what next?
1
There are two economic realities that Sanders knows better than Clinton:
1. There is a global oversupply of labor
2,. Consumers are the real job creators.
When people have work for lower real wages than their parents, they cannot spend like their parents to create jobs.
The only viable solutions are expanding the public sector to reduce the oversupply of labor and increasing the minimum wage.
Without a friendly Congress, Sanders will not be able implement his agenda.
But, at least, he will get on the bully pulpit to broadcast the country's economic injustices.
With Clinton, it will be the same old, same old. She will make a great Republican president, just like her husband.
1. There is a global oversupply of labor
2,. Consumers are the real job creators.
When people have work for lower real wages than their parents, they cannot spend like their parents to create jobs.
The only viable solutions are expanding the public sector to reduce the oversupply of labor and increasing the minimum wage.
Without a friendly Congress, Sanders will not be able implement his agenda.
But, at least, he will get on the bully pulpit to broadcast the country's economic injustices.
With Clinton, it will be the same old, same old. She will make a great Republican president, just like her husband.
2
In this article you state Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump supporters sharne anger.
As a supporter of Sanders, I am not angry. Anger has a negative connotation. We demand a system with less class divide and a fairer share of the wealth in America. We also want a system where politicians cannot be bought through huge campaign contributions by the wealthy. We want true democracy. So, please do not compare us with Donald Trump supporters who might be angry because they think Mexicans are here to take their jobs away from them and commit crime!!! Thanks
As a supporter of Sanders, I am not angry. Anger has a negative connotation. We demand a system with less class divide and a fairer share of the wealth in America. We also want a system where politicians cannot be bought through huge campaign contributions by the wealthy. We want true democracy. So, please do not compare us with Donald Trump supporters who might be angry because they think Mexicans are here to take their jobs away from them and commit crime!!! Thanks
7
Which politician is going to help enable the infrastructure of a high speed rail in the USA? Which would reduce our dependence on foreign oil, fracking, and the horrendous debacles of the BP gulf coast spill, and Canadian Conoco pipeline disaster. We are already behind China who just spent 400 billion to build.
http://www.ushsr.com/
http://www.ushsr.com/
Looking ahead with Stanton to November 2016 and the future:
P/VP
Democrats -- Hillary Clinton/Martin O’Malley
Republicans -- Donald Trump/Sarah Palin
Independents -- Michael Bloomberg/ Bernie Sanders
None of the tickets achieves an electoral majority.
The election goes to the House, where Donald and Sarah emerge victorious.
Street celebrations break out in working-class neighborhoods across the country.
Not to be outdone, sporadic rioting and looting occurs in some inner city neighborhoods.
Donald and Sarah invite everyone in the country to come to Washington
for their Inaugural Celebration Party. Hundreds of thousands of people show up.
The NY Times prints a blistering editorial hinting broadly that Mr. Netanyahu and
AIPAC swayed the election.
In his first act in office, President Trump nullifies the Iran nuclear deal.
P/VP
Democrats -- Hillary Clinton/Martin O’Malley
Republicans -- Donald Trump/Sarah Palin
Independents -- Michael Bloomberg/ Bernie Sanders
None of the tickets achieves an electoral majority.
The election goes to the House, where Donald and Sarah emerge victorious.
Street celebrations break out in working-class neighborhoods across the country.
Not to be outdone, sporadic rioting and looting occurs in some inner city neighborhoods.
Donald and Sarah invite everyone in the country to come to Washington
for their Inaugural Celebration Party. Hundreds of thousands of people show up.
The NY Times prints a blistering editorial hinting broadly that Mr. Netanyahu and
AIPAC swayed the election.
In his first act in office, President Trump nullifies the Iran nuclear deal.
3
And sane Americans storm the Canadian border.....
Amassed great wealth disproves trickle down economics.
Stimulating the economy comes by getting money into the hands of those who will spend it widely, and they will be freed to spend more when living without fear of destitution from absent health coverage.
The less affluent of all colors seek opportunity to share the dream, and they begin to realize that Bernie will use the presidency to help them.
Stimulating the economy comes by getting money into the hands of those who will spend it widely, and they will be freed to spend more when living without fear of destitution from absent health coverage.
The less affluent of all colors seek opportunity to share the dream, and they begin to realize that Bernie will use the presidency to help them.
2
The answers to the concerns of both White and Black people is understandable but seeking solutions from a billionaire who buys loyalties and makes money from gambling or exploitation of the very same kinds of people praising him now is rediculous on the other hand Bernie Sanders seens to be scared of black people, he is eccentric or does not know how to emphasize with poor minorities , and lastly Hillary Clinton's political speak and family history makes some of usually suspicious of any significant changes occurring under her watch. We need to demand that businesses be more socially responsible and that governments (State and Federal) perform on behalf of the people not as mindless bureaucracbureaucracies designed to sustain their budgets. Let's stop asking the wolves to protect sheep, unify and demand a country that makes "pursuite of happiness " a cruel joke on all poor and middle class American's.
The Sanders campaign is about hope, not anger. For the first time in decades, we see a candidate with integrity, ethics and heart. We can unite behind policies based on these qualities despite our disagreements on policies. As far as being electable, no other candidate in this race could possibly have been elected repeatedly to Congress by running as an independent and drawing votes from both conservatives and liberals. If Sanders wins the Democratic nomination, the people will unite around him in a landslide.
7
I will vote for Sanders in the Primary, and, if he manages to win the nomination, I will vote for him in the general election. I get a sinking feeling, however, when I read what seems to me, in your comments, an instance of the "Only Honest Person" myth. Diogenes, for the sake of his quest, would be perfectly satisfied with Ralph Nader -- even though Nader, now a bitter old man, accomplished very little in his career as a public gadfly, and arguably helped George W. Bush by running as an independent candidate in 2000.
Otherwise, thanks for your comment. I also admire Ralph Nader. At present, Sanders is the only person who strikes me as wanting to win the election in order to "promote the general welfare."
What gives me a sinking feeling is the promotion of defeatism with comments like: "don't throw away your vote;" "your candidate is unelectable ( a recent NYT message)" Throwing away a vote constitutes a vote that continues ruinous policy that the voter really does not want.
If Sanders wins, it will confirm to the people that their choices ARE electable and that they CAN promote honest candidates in spite of the wishes of a entrenched political machinery operated by what has become a ruling class. Rather than a political "revolution," I see this as a resuscitation of democracy by the people and for the people.
One after another, the state representatives of the current political machine will be replaced simply because the public has regained faith that they do have power in their vote and that they CAN replace the bad apples.
What gives me a sinking feeling is the promotion of defeatism with comments like: "don't throw away your vote;" "your candidate is unelectable ( a recent NYT message)" Throwing away a vote constitutes a vote that continues ruinous policy that the voter really does not want.
If Sanders wins, it will confirm to the people that their choices ARE electable and that they CAN promote honest candidates in spite of the wishes of a entrenched political machinery operated by what has become a ruling class. Rather than a political "revolution," I see this as a resuscitation of democracy by the people and for the people.
One after another, the state representatives of the current political machine will be replaced simply because the public has regained faith that they do have power in their vote and that they CAN replace the bad apples.
1
Ah, Brown Dog! It pains me to be so conflicted, but the cynical realist in me wouldn't have it any other way -- being conflicted, that is. Let's see, do I remember this correctly -- the "Prisoner's Dilemma" model in Game Theory -- no, scratch that. Fact is, the system is what it is, and it functions (or dysfunctions) in accordance with its own organizational and behavioral mechanisms. Thus, we can be justifiably angry when elites give us the avuncular lecture of "don't throw your vote away," and at the same time be fully aware that they are objectively correct. The problem is worse than frustrating because it is intractable.
I read an article about Trump's early career with the Atlantic City casinos. He is no entrepreneur. He is a gambler. He likes the attention and the rush. When he loses, he doubles down without thinking. This is the typical behavior of an addictive gambler. He is the last thing this country needs in the context of what I just described above. IMHO, we have had an entire generation of gamblers run this country into the ground by betting away the farm.
5
Can a country whose Constitution defines the US by capitalism; that does not acknowledge women; that considers a slave to be 3/5ths of a man; whose founders were escaping taxation without representation..
...change to a philosophy that encourages the State to protect citizens first; that treats women as equal to men; that is color blind; and that taxes according to citizens' needs and ability to pay, in order to support them with adequate housing, nutrition, education and health care?
Can the US change from the "Me" philosophy to the "We" philosophy?
The US has become an oligarchy. The rich dictate the laws and interests of the nation. The Citizens United decision made Super Pacs more influential.
Except for Sanders and Trump, candidates are taking full advantage of the largesse of the very rich, and corporations.
But, while the very rich take, they do not give back. Only 62.6% of Americans above age 16 are working, according the the Bureau of Labor Statistics, January 2016. Corporations send jobs to slave labor countries, leaving Americans to try and find enough money to eat and pay rent--forget about health care.
Voters must change this system, put the needs of citizens first, increase taxes, provide universal health care, free university education and keep jobs here. This system works in France--it is not an untested theory.
The gap between the 1% and the 99% has never been greater. This must change or the US will destabilize. Sanders can lead the way.
...change to a philosophy that encourages the State to protect citizens first; that treats women as equal to men; that is color blind; and that taxes according to citizens' needs and ability to pay, in order to support them with adequate housing, nutrition, education and health care?
Can the US change from the "Me" philosophy to the "We" philosophy?
The US has become an oligarchy. The rich dictate the laws and interests of the nation. The Citizens United decision made Super Pacs more influential.
Except for Sanders and Trump, candidates are taking full advantage of the largesse of the very rich, and corporations.
But, while the very rich take, they do not give back. Only 62.6% of Americans above age 16 are working, according the the Bureau of Labor Statistics, January 2016. Corporations send jobs to slave labor countries, leaving Americans to try and find enough money to eat and pay rent--forget about health care.
Voters must change this system, put the needs of citizens first, increase taxes, provide universal health care, free university education and keep jobs here. This system works in France--it is not an untested theory.
The gap between the 1% and the 99% has never been greater. This must change or the US will destabilize. Sanders can lead the way.
14
I will be supporting Trump. Sanders can not even beat Hillary. Sanders is a decent guy, but not the direction we need to go. America has had enough lies from liberals and you can yhank your parties actions for that.
Apparently, Karl Marx lives. And still thinks that human nature can be re-programmed by enlightened leaders. And still never read a history book.
1
Dear Stockinator,
Unhappily, the platforms of neither party serve US residents well. When the Federal Reserve chair, Alan Greenspan, who served Reagan, Bush, Clinton and W. Bush, recommended privitization of Social Security, he was not doing it to serve the people. If investors made the wrong choices, American workers would lose everything.
When the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Goldman Sachs becomes the Secretary of the Treasury under W. Bush, and the crisis of 2008 fell on their watch, and Goldman Sachs was one of most egregious offenders, it begs the question that Treasury, and the Reeps, were working for the benefit of all Americans.
When both sides of the aisle helped abolish the separation between investment houses and banks, their decision led to worldwide devastation.
When it is has been proven that the Iraqi War, voted for by both sides of the aisle, with accompanying deaths and expense, was wholly unfounded, it could be said that idiots exist on the left and on the right.
I prefer the more inclusionary platform of the Democratic Party, and in particular, Sanders' rhetoric. He has a vision, and a do-able plan, that will provide education and a healthy safety net for all Americans. His plans involve, in part, raising taxes, particularly on the wealthy. But, it costs a lot to run a country well, and the wealthy, must pay their share. They just can't keep getting a free ride.
I live in a country with high taxes, and, it's a good place to live.
Unhappily, the platforms of neither party serve US residents well. When the Federal Reserve chair, Alan Greenspan, who served Reagan, Bush, Clinton and W. Bush, recommended privitization of Social Security, he was not doing it to serve the people. If investors made the wrong choices, American workers would lose everything.
When the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Goldman Sachs becomes the Secretary of the Treasury under W. Bush, and the crisis of 2008 fell on their watch, and Goldman Sachs was one of most egregious offenders, it begs the question that Treasury, and the Reeps, were working for the benefit of all Americans.
When both sides of the aisle helped abolish the separation between investment houses and banks, their decision led to worldwide devastation.
When it is has been proven that the Iraqi War, voted for by both sides of the aisle, with accompanying deaths and expense, was wholly unfounded, it could be said that idiots exist on the left and on the right.
I prefer the more inclusionary platform of the Democratic Party, and in particular, Sanders' rhetoric. He has a vision, and a do-able plan, that will provide education and a healthy safety net for all Americans. His plans involve, in part, raising taxes, particularly on the wealthy. But, it costs a lot to run a country well, and the wealthy, must pay their share. They just can't keep getting a free ride.
I live in a country with high taxes, and, it's a good place to live.
A nearly 230 year old constitution is bound to encourage and even force deeply undemocratic practices (the design makes it impossible to win without lot's of money, keeps people in constant campaign mode, encourages gerrymandering, suppresses minority opinions beyond major parties, even did not grant explicit voting right to many for centuries, etc).
In other countries constitutions were typically replaced only after major crises -- revolutions, wars, major collapses of economic systems etc.
The fact that voters are flocking to radicalized, self-styled "outsiders" based on a general sense of disenfranchisement may be that "revolution" - and the crises that one of these characters actually makes it into the White House.
Politicians are humans beings, most actually starting with idealistic ideas, but all of them eventually conform to the governmental system if they want to remain relevant.
You can propose that US politician have abruptly become inherently more corrupt than they have ever been or that they are more corrupt than politicians in other developed countries. Or that the 230 year old system they abide by and whose founders has little to no experience with workings of modern democracy is hopelessly outdated and promotes corrupt behavior and practices.
Personally, I think the latter is far more plausible.
In other countries constitutions were typically replaced only after major crises -- revolutions, wars, major collapses of economic systems etc.
The fact that voters are flocking to radicalized, self-styled "outsiders" based on a general sense of disenfranchisement may be that "revolution" - and the crises that one of these characters actually makes it into the White House.
Politicians are humans beings, most actually starting with idealistic ideas, but all of them eventually conform to the governmental system if they want to remain relevant.
You can propose that US politician have abruptly become inherently more corrupt than they have ever been or that they are more corrupt than politicians in other developed countries. Or that the 230 year old system they abide by and whose founders has little to no experience with workings of modern democracy is hopelessly outdated and promotes corrupt behavior and practices.
Personally, I think the latter is far more plausible.
5
@crwtom
One of those you label as "outsiders" has over 30 years of experience in elected office, experience working to reach bipartisan solutions.
One of those you label as "outsiders" has over 30 years of experience in elected office, experience working to reach bipartisan solutions.
2
I have never met a Sander's supporter who wants to vote for him because of his record as a major of a town of 50K and very few are raving about landmark (?) achievements as a Washington legislators representing a state of the size of a midsize city. I have yet to meet someone who considers his single-payer proposal as particularly bipartisan and considers him as the unifying hope based on that.
The overwhelming motivation for Sanders support is being fed up with a system and conventional politicians that are perceived as corrupt and someone promising revolutions and rallying against the 1%.
The overwhelming motivation for Sanders support is being fed up with a system and conventional politicians that are perceived as corrupt and someone promising revolutions and rallying against the 1%.
2
The way this is falling together is perfectly understandable. The people have grown afraid of a lot of things: The last thing on earth the electorate wants right now is anyone connected with industrialists, the border invasion, or the active suppression of jobs by punitive policy. We'll see hoe things progress. Right now, the word "party" might as well be sewage.
1
Bernie is not "raw" or untested or inexperienced in terms of his public service. Quite the contrary. To compare him to a TV reality star who is a business man or an inexperienced unaccomplished Senator is absurd as they have no real civic experience at all. Also Bernie's supporters are not uneducated like so many in the GOP are or "low information" voters, not at all, far from it. Bernie has walked his talk for some time and his record of actual accomplishments is substantial.
5
It is not about anger among white voters but Americans frustration with the growing oligarchy that America is becoming. If you have a family member as a former President, you have a spot on the ballot?
So, minorities have no such frustrations? All white voters are "angry"? Portraying supporters of Mr. Trump or Sanders as "angry" and "white", imply that such support is a negative. So, support of the wife of an impeached President or the brother of a President who started a Mid-East disaster is normal? That is the issue. Support of two candidates with such baggage is anything but "normal".
Maybe Americans are not angry, but just waking up.
So, minorities have no such frustrations? All white voters are "angry"? Portraying supporters of Mr. Trump or Sanders as "angry" and "white", imply that such support is a negative. So, support of the wife of an impeached President or the brother of a President who started a Mid-East disaster is normal? That is the issue. Support of two candidates with such baggage is anything but "normal".
Maybe Americans are not angry, but just waking up.
3
So Ms. Clinton should not be elected due the sins/impeachment of her husband? Sexism at its worst!
1
Not at all. It just seems the field is very limited. Political parties aside, I respect the outsider with real desire and pizzazz that wants to change things for the better.
Bill Clinton was one of these types. Ms. Clinton is very smart and no one to mess with. That is my very limited opinion. But if she could not even avoid the very..silly? e-mail allegations while Secretary of State, it does make you wonder.
Read about the Navy Admiral who was relieved of duty six months into a new Strike Force command. All sorts of evil allegations relating to e-mail violations. True or not, any Cabinet member should know better than that poor sailor did.
Bill Clinton was one of these types. Ms. Clinton is very smart and no one to mess with. That is my very limited opinion. But if she could not even avoid the very..silly? e-mail allegations while Secretary of State, it does make you wonder.
Read about the Navy Admiral who was relieved of duty six months into a new Strike Force command. All sorts of evil allegations relating to e-mail violations. True or not, any Cabinet member should know better than that poor sailor did.
As to anger regarding illegal immigration, the last Ronald Reagan signed, current immigration law provides for strict fines/imprisonment for "emplorers" who hire/employ workers illegally in our country. Romney's business backers quickly pulled him back from his promise to have such workers "self-deport" - a consequence of the law's implementation drying up jobs for illegals. The Conseratives may be talking tough on the issue, but their business masters will not allow them to kill the U.S. labor law advoiding, goose that laid the cheap labor egg. Why has no canidiate even mentioned the "current" employer sanction law? We should enforce the law, have a humane "Guest Worker" program which would provide such workers full labor law protection such as minimum wage, 40 hour work week, OSHA work safety mandates, etc.. Our borders do need to be secured against ISIL, etc., incursion across our borders, as well as keeping wages higher for our citizens, while corporations invert our jobs to slave labor countries such as China.
3
Trump exudes anger, and all it's negative attributes of willful distortion, attacks, insults, and self-righteousness. It's destructive. He is about Trump, always has been.
Sanders expresses indignation and consistently says 'WE' need 'EVERYONE' involved. He leverages people's frustration towards participation and inclusivity. Sanders has been about participatory democracy, always has been.
Trump born into wealth and privilege chose to dedicate his life to catering to the wealthy and privilegded while self-aggrandizing the entire way. Sanders born of modest backgronds dedicated his life to helping those with less voice and less opportunity.
The gap between them is expansive--we are at a fork in the road, and we will take it (sorry Yogi). Which will it be?
Sanders expresses indignation and consistently says 'WE' need 'EVERYONE' involved. He leverages people's frustration towards participation and inclusivity. Sanders has been about participatory democracy, always has been.
Trump born into wealth and privilege chose to dedicate his life to catering to the wealthy and privilegded while self-aggrandizing the entire way. Sanders born of modest backgronds dedicated his life to helping those with less voice and less opportunity.
The gap between them is expansive--we are at a fork in the road, and we will take it (sorry Yogi). Which will it be?
5
Supporters of Sanders and of Trump are angry and want change. Those who support Sanders are angry at rich and powerful people who benefit from the status quo; those who support Trump are angry at poor, disenfranchised people who suffer from the status quo. Which group of people has the motive and influence to keep things just as they are now?
1
Ironically, supporters of both candidates have no idea how the claims of their candidates can accomplish any of their stomp rhetoric. Neither has offered a viable solution to their campaign promises. "I will..." & "The top 1% will pay.", is NOT a substitute for a sound strategy. Sanders has now added he'll increase taxes on the middle class too. And Trump and changed his mind on so many things, it's hard to keep up.
In other words, anger breeds ignorance, and it prevails in both parties.
In other words, anger breeds ignorance, and it prevails in both parties.
1
Guido,
you haven't read Sanders actual proposals if you think he hasn't a strategy. Go to his website.
you haven't read Sanders actual proposals if you think he hasn't a strategy. Go to his website.
I support Trump, but I can live with Sanders. The rest are boring mouthpieces for Party policy (except maybe Cruz, who I always admired for "shutting down the government"). The parties are corrupt, the system is rigged, and the media is down with it. Something needs to change.
2
Danno
You admire Cruz for shutting down the federal government, which cost taxpayers billions and accomplished absolutely nothing? Wow.
You admire Cruz for shutting down the federal government, which cost taxpayers billions and accomplished absolutely nothing? Wow.
2
Trump is really just doing "The Apprentice" with voters instead of celebrities. He gets them fighting to raise his audience. He's like Vince McMahon, staging fights. His voters are too ignorant to know they are being played. For Trump, this is the same as a Battery Park three card monte, and he's the dealer.
9
my favorite among all the angry people interviewed was Mr. Nelson, who cited a culture of complaint, as he whined and complained.
what typifies these people their utter lack of self awareness. the Sanders people want a new anti-politician -- so they are voting for someone who has spent DECADES as a politician -- a career in public office, mostly failing to get anything changed, just ranting against the system.
the Trump people want an independent self-made strong man, so they are voting for a guy who went to an Ivy League school, "made" himself with Daddy's millions and is a creature of big banks who loan him money. Romney redux, with a bigger mouth, and has demonstrated and admitted that he'll say and do anything to get what benefits HIM. "Loved" Hillary and Bill, as he admitted, when they had power. Changes positions on issues whenever it advances his ends. Probably the most deceitful candidate in decades (Reagan had principles, Cruz is consistent) but because he is rude, crude and quick with a quip, voters see that as honesty.
Trump and Sanders both yell a lot, bluster and accuse, whine and shout -- and I guess in today's reality TV world, that's taken for competence by citizens who let their lives be owned by anger and hatred of others. Leaders who actually accomplish things like Kasich ask their supporters to be FOR something. Trump and Bernie succeed by stoking anger. How tragic.
what typifies these people their utter lack of self awareness. the Sanders people want a new anti-politician -- so they are voting for someone who has spent DECADES as a politician -- a career in public office, mostly failing to get anything changed, just ranting against the system.
the Trump people want an independent self-made strong man, so they are voting for a guy who went to an Ivy League school, "made" himself with Daddy's millions and is a creature of big banks who loan him money. Romney redux, with a bigger mouth, and has demonstrated and admitted that he'll say and do anything to get what benefits HIM. "Loved" Hillary and Bill, as he admitted, when they had power. Changes positions on issues whenever it advances his ends. Probably the most deceitful candidate in decades (Reagan had principles, Cruz is consistent) but because he is rude, crude and quick with a quip, voters see that as honesty.
Trump and Sanders both yell a lot, bluster and accuse, whine and shout -- and I guess in today's reality TV world, that's taken for competence by citizens who let their lives be owned by anger and hatred of others. Leaders who actually accomplish things like Kasich ask their supporters to be FOR something. Trump and Bernie succeed by stoking anger. How tragic.
8
In my humble opinion Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump voters share more than anger they share a passion to change and a desire for honesty. Same old same old does not seem to sell any more in political circles. Dynasties are not popular any more universally. In India the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty was defeated after 60+ years of governing India. It seems likely that the Bush dynasty will be defeated and may be even the Clinton dynasty.
8
Another misunderstood commonality between Donald Trump and Bernie:
The misunderstanding about what is misconstrued by the media spinners:
The "Art of The Deal" for Trump....is being the best "wheeler-dealer" and
craftsmanship of selling the deal to make yourself rich...
Well now
The deal that Bernie Sanders is making is ....an upgrade of the FDR New
Deal...which helps...All of the USA...not just Bernie...but you and me.
That's the difference...between the Deal that Trumps wants ...is to be
Great...for Trump...
But Bernie has a proven record about thinking about all Americans..especially
those who will succeed and whose future lies ahead of them.
The misunderstanding about what is misconstrued by the media spinners:
The "Art of The Deal" for Trump....is being the best "wheeler-dealer" and
craftsmanship of selling the deal to make yourself rich...
Well now
The deal that Bernie Sanders is making is ....an upgrade of the FDR New
Deal...which helps...All of the USA...not just Bernie...but you and me.
That's the difference...between the Deal that Trumps wants ...is to be
Great...for Trump...
But Bernie has a proven record about thinking about all Americans..especially
those who will succeed and whose future lies ahead of them.
2
I'm white,68,and I whole heartedly support Bernie.I guess that makes me "younger " at heart.
While I'm proud I voted for our first non white President,the last time I felt as strongly as do now for Sanders,was for Bobby Kennedy in 1968.
I support Bernie more than Hillary for a number of reasons;the fact that with small donors like myself,while refusing any super PAC money,and yet keeping up with Hillary on available campaign money,he seems through action more than words committed to reversing the damage done by Citizens' United;a concern that internationally Hillary will be more hawkish than Obama,much less more hawkish than Bernie,considering which the 2 in 2002 as Senators voted for the Iraq war; the first time voters Bernie's drawing to the caucuses,could in November help change the makeup of Congress.
To others supporting Bernie; yes,we're not fond of Hillary.But if ANY one of the Republicans reaches the White House it will be an uprecidented disaster.And besides,if Bernie IS the nominee,he'll need the votes of Hillary's supporters for him to have any chance to win in November.Which reasons are why from the start I decided I'll vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is.
While I'm proud I voted for our first non white President,the last time I felt as strongly as do now for Sanders,was for Bobby Kennedy in 1968.
I support Bernie more than Hillary for a number of reasons;the fact that with small donors like myself,while refusing any super PAC money,and yet keeping up with Hillary on available campaign money,he seems through action more than words committed to reversing the damage done by Citizens' United;a concern that internationally Hillary will be more hawkish than Obama,much less more hawkish than Bernie,considering which the 2 in 2002 as Senators voted for the Iraq war; the first time voters Bernie's drawing to the caucuses,could in November help change the makeup of Congress.
To others supporting Bernie; yes,we're not fond of Hillary.But if ANY one of the Republicans reaches the White House it will be an uprecidented disaster.And besides,if Bernie IS the nominee,he'll need the votes of Hillary's supporters for him to have any chance to win in November.Which reasons are why from the start I decided I'll vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is.
3
US electoral and political system = as usual, "SNAFU". $$$$$. Money makes the US plutocracy go round and round USers may be mad at their government, but the rest of the world is sick and tired of the US.
Justin is correct, but his timing is not. We are already in a Police State. When the "Royalty" called the SCOTUS gave cops the ability to use deadly force indiscriminately at their option, this started the Police State. The Civil Forfeture laws passed that allowed cops to seize ANYTHING just on a whim is another sign. AND the War On Cannabis is another sign. Even the Feds have a patent that claims the Medical Properties of Cannabis exist but yet no repeal of the Schedule I status. NO people we live in a Police State.
I guess it comes down to why the voters are angry. If you're angry because someone has more than you, Sanders is the choice. He's repeatedly said he'll take from the "wealthy" and give it to the "not wealthy". The problem with socialism (or its sinister cousin, democratic socialism), as Margaret Thatcher once said, is that sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.
2
The French expression is Trumpe L'Oeil.
Trick of the eye.
Bernie has progressives supporting him because he is a proven progressive.
Trump has folks who are getting tricked by his snake oil salesman approach to governing.
Trick of the eye.
Bernie has progressives supporting him because he is a proven progressive.
Trump has folks who are getting tricked by his snake oil salesman approach to governing.
3
Bernie supporters are not "angry" we are FRUSTRATED, and have wanted a progressive leader since Obama promised hope and change.
This time we have a politician who has been progressive his whole career.
This time we have a politician who has been progressive his whole career.
2
There are many like me whose political idealism has turned into cynicism. I don't think this is a negative, I think it is realistic. I've read the various rather complicated explanations of how Bernie Sander's health plan will be paid for
and it seems you just have to choose which one to believe. Frankly I hate the aca and I hope I make it to medicare age. I have to suspend disbelief to think Sanders could win or has a chance in hell of changing the political establishment he has been a part of for so long. I don't think he really believes it. Then again he has shifted the dialogue. In spite of it all my spirit soared when Obama was elected and I hope I can experience that joy once again when Hillary Clinton is elected.
But then I'm an old blue collar white guy without a degree so who gives a damn what I say anyway. Please don't say Trump.
and it seems you just have to choose which one to believe. Frankly I hate the aca and I hope I make it to medicare age. I have to suspend disbelief to think Sanders could win or has a chance in hell of changing the political establishment he has been a part of for so long. I don't think he really believes it. Then again he has shifted the dialogue. In spite of it all my spirit soared when Obama was elected and I hope I can experience that joy once again when Hillary Clinton is elected.
But then I'm an old blue collar white guy without a degree so who gives a damn what I say anyway. Please don't say Trump.
5
How could anyone raised in a free country vote for an admitted socialist? How could anyone vote for a liar and a thief? We have many fine people in our country. Let's find them instead of voting because of gender or race.
3
One thing your article pointed out was the distrust of Hillary. This distrust goes well beyond party lines. I am afraid many democrats and independents will end up not voting for lack of a trustworthy candidate. The baggage she brings will sink the party.
1
It is quite amazing how the NYT has pulled out all the stops to support the candidacy of Mrs. Clinton in the upcoming general election.
An editorial endorsing Mrs. Clinton.
A Nate Cohn "statistical" analysis skewed in Mrs. Clinton's favor, just a tad so that the veneer of "objectivity" does not slip too much to become obvious.
An interview with Tom Vilsack predicting a Mrs. Clinton win int he Iowa caucuses.
And all this in just a mere 24 hours.
Dear voter, please also remember this:
This same paper also disseminated the lies about WMD in Iraq to a national reading public.
This same paper also endorsed Mrs. Clinton in 2008 with the same fuzzy "status quo" arguments in its endorsement of Mrs. Clinton in 2016.
This paper is the "establishment".
Fool me twice...America, you know how that goes?
An editorial endorsing Mrs. Clinton.
A Nate Cohn "statistical" analysis skewed in Mrs. Clinton's favor, just a tad so that the veneer of "objectivity" does not slip too much to become obvious.
An interview with Tom Vilsack predicting a Mrs. Clinton win int he Iowa caucuses.
And all this in just a mere 24 hours.
Dear voter, please also remember this:
This same paper also disseminated the lies about WMD in Iraq to a national reading public.
This same paper also endorsed Mrs. Clinton in 2008 with the same fuzzy "status quo" arguments in its endorsement of Mrs. Clinton in 2016.
This paper is the "establishment".
Fool me twice...America, you know how that goes?
5
Donald Trump is the only candidate who will put his foot down on immigration: that's legal, illegal and "guest workers".
I don't blame them for taking our jobs. I blame the back-stabbing politicians on both sides that have allowed it. And the backstabbing press that has minimized and concealed it.
I meet IT workers every week that never heard of the H1B guest worker visa program. When I explain it, suddenly the light goes on:
"That's why I'm working two days a week. THAT'S why they can get away with paying me so little! "
I don't blame them for taking our jobs. I blame the back-stabbing politicians on both sides that have allowed it. And the backstabbing press that has minimized and concealed it.
I meet IT workers every week that never heard of the H1B guest worker visa program. When I explain it, suddenly the light goes on:
"That's why I'm working two days a week. THAT'S why they can get away with paying me so little! "
1
What disturbs me is the mindset of Sanders voters in this article. Politicians do not 'create jobs,' or 'fix problems.' They do create conditions to thwart or encourage job creation. Please, all of his life Sanders has proclaimed his socialism, which means enabling many to ride on the backs of the few. It means forget the lost American work ethic, which I would think would be strong in a farming state like Iowa. Farmers are among the hardest working Americans anywhere. Wake up, socialism (which inevitably leads to communism) will only destroy our fabric. Sanders openly said his want to raise $19 trillion in new taxes. That only impoverishes us all and truly helps no one.
2
So much effort seems to be going into getting the "right" people into office. *Then* we'll be ok.
The whole issue of income for inequality and the supposed cure of campaign finance reform has it completely backwards. As does the idea that recent presidents have been too weak to fight our current external threats.
It is not too much money influencing politics. It's that politics is too involved in money - picking winners & losers, favoring one side or the other, showering gifts on some, punishing others.
Nothing will change at all, as long as government has so much money & power. Elites & cronyism thrive in *every* system, even, especially, those "for the people".
Both Trump & Bernie want more power as president. When we'd be much better off if both would have much less.
The whole issue of income for inequality and the supposed cure of campaign finance reform has it completely backwards. As does the idea that recent presidents have been too weak to fight our current external threats.
It is not too much money influencing politics. It's that politics is too involved in money - picking winners & losers, favoring one side or the other, showering gifts on some, punishing others.
Nothing will change at all, as long as government has so much money & power. Elites & cronyism thrive in *every* system, even, especially, those "for the people".
Both Trump & Bernie want more power as president. When we'd be much better off if both would have much less.
2
I'd vote for Trump even if *just* for the purpose of helping to bring about the end of the stifling culture of political correctness. It's killing discourse, careers, and thought itself. The sooner if dies, taking identity politics with it, the better off we'll be.
Bernie is going to surprise in Iowa and will pull even with Hillary by Super Tuesday. He's also going to get a lot of high profile endorsements in February.
Where it goes from there, who knows, but this won't be settled until the end of April at the earliest.
Where it goes from there, who knows, but this won't be settled until the end of April at the earliest.
Devoted dissatisfaction in both parties is an indictment of the Obama administration failure to deliver on his promises and the failure of the congress and senate to do their jobs .
"The targets of their anger diverge. Mr. Trump’s supporters directed their wrath toward career politicians, unlawful immigrants, terrorists and people who they said were taking advantage of welfare. Mr. Sanders’s supporters assailed big banks and economic inequality."
This is a huge difference. Trump supporters are directing their anger at largely illusory bogeymen which are just part of our changing society - they are reactionaries; Sanders supporters are directing their anger at real destructive forces destroying our country - they want our country to embrace the ideology that is at the heart of what America stands for.
This is a huge difference. Trump supporters are directing their anger at largely illusory bogeymen which are just part of our changing society - they are reactionaries; Sanders supporters are directing their anger at real destructive forces destroying our country - they want our country to embrace the ideology that is at the heart of what America stands for.
1
So Trump supporters blindly support someone who wants to ban all Muslims from entering the country? What kind of message does that send to our Muslim allies especially in the Middle East where most of the world's troubles emanate?
1
So why can't this anger be channeled against Citizens United?!?! I would love for any of these supporters to give even the most simple explanation of exactly how either candidate "will do" what he says he wants to do.
1
Bernie Sanders is an assertive white male over 50 and over 6 feet tall. Hillary Clinton is a woman: need I say more about why Sanders is doing as well as he is?
2
One point in all of this needs to be considered: If we don't stop the terrorists, our wealth and income won't matter.
2
What a coincidence!! On the very same day that the NYT endorses Hillary Clinton, they also link her Democratic opponent with the leading Republican Wacko.
3
Those angry people want to blame minorities and any one but themselves and their white male politicians for all of their failings.
1
I listen to Trump all I hear it hate.
When I listen to Bernie I am more hopeful than I have been my entire adult life.
Finally somebody understand what we all know.
The trade deals have sent tens of millions of good jobs to slave wage countries has crippled our middle class.
When I listen to Bernie I am more hopeful than I have been my entire adult life.
Finally somebody understand what we all know.
The trade deals have sent tens of millions of good jobs to slave wage countries has crippled our middle class.
4
I say next to a group of working-class white guys, all Trump supporters, at the DMV a few months ago and they repeatedly said "he's so rich, he can't be bought." It was all I could do not to reply "maybe, but are you sure he won't remember who COST him money when he was trying to put up buildings?"
1
Nice article finally focusing on politics with out bringing in contempt for outsider politicians like Trump and Sanders.
Next step would be: to understand what are the causes for this anger and what is fueling it, because this is not just a temporal fad but something more lasting. The "Post-Berlin Wall World economic order" has created big gaps in income, less opportunity for many and is gradually destroying the middle class dream while massive migrations pose a challenge to cultural cohesion and values.
Politicians have given a blind eye to this situation for years and people are afraid that politics, money and power are a rigged game where the powerless don't stand a chance against the elites.
Next step would be: to understand what are the causes for this anger and what is fueling it, because this is not just a temporal fad but something more lasting. The "Post-Berlin Wall World economic order" has created big gaps in income, less opportunity for many and is gradually destroying the middle class dream while massive migrations pose a challenge to cultural cohesion and values.
Politicians have given a blind eye to this situation for years and people are afraid that politics, money and power are a rigged game where the powerless don't stand a chance against the elites.
"The two movements have significant differences: Mr. Trump attracts support across a wide spectrum of demographic groups, but is strongest among Americans without a college degree"
There is a strong correlation between those who support The Donald and those who cannot locate France on a map. The more you know, the more you support Bernie.
There is a strong correlation between those who support The Donald and those who cannot locate France on a map. The more you know, the more you support Bernie.
Typical unsubstantiated, elitist, leftist nonsense. I'm surely glad that most NYT respondants are so much smarter than the rest of us ignorant slobs.
1
Reading all this angry rhetoric that few if any seem to be willing to contradict, one wonders just where all those people are who have consistently put Hillary Clinton at the top of the polls, even in states (other than New Hampshire) where Sanders has a clear demographic advantage.
And one also has to wonder why Donald Trump is the most despised person in the entire field of candidates, according to every poll both reputable and disreputable. How can this be, when every comments section is topheavy with his fans?
I have a strong feeling that come November 9th, we're going to be seeing and hearing the media offer a new version of an old cliche: The silent majority have spoken.
Only this time it won't consist of the people whose energy seems to be largely devoted to venting their spleen in 10,001 comments sections. It'll consist of people who realize that it takes a lot more than hate and anger to run a country and keep the world from blowing up, and who quietly showed up on November 8th to elect Hillary Clinton the next president of the United States.
And one also has to wonder why Donald Trump is the most despised person in the entire field of candidates, according to every poll both reputable and disreputable. How can this be, when every comments section is topheavy with his fans?
I have a strong feeling that come November 9th, we're going to be seeing and hearing the media offer a new version of an old cliche: The silent majority have spoken.
Only this time it won't consist of the people whose energy seems to be largely devoted to venting their spleen in 10,001 comments sections. It'll consist of people who realize that it takes a lot more than hate and anger to run a country and keep the world from blowing up, and who quietly showed up on November 8th to elect Hillary Clinton the next president of the United States.
2
The key difference? Sanders' supporters' envy-justified certitude that they are entitled to expropriate the wealth of others.
1
The reason, why Trump and Sanders is getting any traction in the polls is because the White voters are angry .
And this anger among majority of the White Americans started to bubble up as soon as Obama became the President .
Before that the majority of the Black and Hispanic voters were angry and that anger was the main reason why we saw Obama's share of votes in the last elections hovering around 95% from the Black voters . And around 75% from the Hispanic voters with only 39% of the White votes.
So no will be surprised if we find the White voters are totally angry at the direction this country is going and thus going to punish the establishment candidates in this upcoming election cycle in November.
But my point is if we're angry why we're not angry at all times.
Only a social scientist can give some input as to why our anger is so very issue oriented .
Why there was no anger at the last Iraq invasion ?
Why we didn't feel any anger when innocent people of another country (Iraq) were slaughtered for no apparent reason ?
Why we're not moved by the deaths from gun violence is another puzzle ?
Only the people who lose someone very close are angry .
Why we try to save someone's life from deadly cancer or AIDS but do nothing about gun violence or deaths from drug's effect on our societies, is beyond me ?
If we're angry, we should be angry at everything .
Not on selected subjects.
Deaths by any means has to stop .
Otherwise we're a total failure as a human specie .
And this anger among majority of the White Americans started to bubble up as soon as Obama became the President .
Before that the majority of the Black and Hispanic voters were angry and that anger was the main reason why we saw Obama's share of votes in the last elections hovering around 95% from the Black voters . And around 75% from the Hispanic voters with only 39% of the White votes.
So no will be surprised if we find the White voters are totally angry at the direction this country is going and thus going to punish the establishment candidates in this upcoming election cycle in November.
But my point is if we're angry why we're not angry at all times.
Only a social scientist can give some input as to why our anger is so very issue oriented .
Why there was no anger at the last Iraq invasion ?
Why we didn't feel any anger when innocent people of another country (Iraq) were slaughtered for no apparent reason ?
Why we're not moved by the deaths from gun violence is another puzzle ?
Only the people who lose someone very close are angry .
Why we try to save someone's life from deadly cancer or AIDS but do nothing about gun violence or deaths from drug's effect on our societies, is beyond me ?
If we're angry, we should be angry at everything .
Not on selected subjects.
Deaths by any means has to stop .
Otherwise we're a total failure as a human specie .
I guess the fundamental question for Democrats is who controls our party: women and people of color, who no doubt elected Obama, who has done a very nice job in most of our minds; or white males, who flock to the Bern, the newest Democrat on the block. As a long time middle manager, I know past performance is the best predictor of future performance, so I am hoping the white males do not usurp power again under the banner of a old angry white male interloper who just arrived on the scene to mansplain his Berning desires for revolution to the women folk and his new minority friends.......misogynic Killer Mike is his newest endorsement I believe. Now how many of those revolutions have we actually had in 239 years? Yeah, one, the original, and the guys who threw off our yoke were not in their mid-70s and were actually willing to fight in a war instead of seeking a selfish exemption just to protect their own hide. I met a lot of new bosses in my career. The ones that came in screaming at everyone about the need for massive changes, their way or the highway, were the ones that always ended up tanking the business, then they were gone and we all had to mop up the mess. I do not care to see what Bern envisions for everyone else as women and people of color will undoubtably be left to mop up his ruins.
3
Call me one of the disenchanted. A Hillary Clinton win would be more of the present same. She is experienced in politics. Is she for the middle Americans. No. Wall St, yes! Another war hawk we don't need. Can she be trusted, NO! Sanders is authentic and would take America where it should already be - futuristic thinking regarding climate change, national health insurance, insuring workers when retired can live with dignity, not necessarily rich, but comfortably like the Nordic socialist nations Sanders isn't in bed with the pharmas or banks. Elizabeth Warren would be an Xlnt choice for VP. She too, cares for the middle class and speaks truth to power.
Does Sanders have a chance after first Obama endorsed her, then the NY Times. The word 'socialist' frightens many. Why in this 21st century? Could it be their mindset is still deep-rooted in the 50's when the word was misconstrued to mean 'communist', same way as the word 'God' is in religion rather than a powerful energy that permeates the whole universe?
Should Trump become our next president, I would then have to say that collectively we deserve it because of how far our nation has fallen. He is in our faces as our collective manifestation of corrupt business practices, racism, lack of goodwill & right human relations, a lack of empathy, and how excessive amount of money can drive a man to insult, berate with no filter and not fear consequences for his incivility.
Does Sanders have a chance after first Obama endorsed her, then the NY Times. The word 'socialist' frightens many. Why in this 21st century? Could it be their mindset is still deep-rooted in the 50's when the word was misconstrued to mean 'communist', same way as the word 'God' is in religion rather than a powerful energy that permeates the whole universe?
Should Trump become our next president, I would then have to say that collectively we deserve it because of how far our nation has fallen. He is in our faces as our collective manifestation of corrupt business practices, racism, lack of goodwill & right human relations, a lack of empathy, and how excessive amount of money can drive a man to insult, berate with no filter and not fear consequences for his incivility.
1
All that happens because Trump, you see not everyone are suckers.
Now we going back from were we started what a deal .
Now we going back from were we started what a deal .
I always said that there was an arc and at some point the TEA Party and the One Percenters could meet and maybe even work together.
The supporters of Trump and Sanders are expressing almost identical complaints about the status quo with the difference being how to most successfully address these problems which are so deeply embedded that we may be past the point of no return.
I am a true, die hard conservative who disagrees with Bernie Sanders philosophically on probably every issue BUT I do respect him and think that he is a good, decent human being unlike Hillary who is probably a criminal.
I might even be able to live with a President Sanders as long as he didn't continue the Obama practice of violating the Constitution in his means of governing using his Pen & Phone instead of the processes set forth in the Constitution.
Hillary would remember with alacrity how Obama has ignored the other side of the aisle even when the GOP has had the majority (Without any push back from Boehner, McConnell and now Ryan, btw) and just emulate Obama's illegal MO.
The problem with Trump is that in some ways his phenomenon very closely resembles the Obama phenomenon of 2008 (which I never fell for) that has produced the most dangerously inept and destructive presidency in the country's history.
Who then?
Personally, I'm going with the NON politician who has a checkered past morally, philosophically and in his political associations.
A leap of faith? Yes. A desperate one.
The supporters of Trump and Sanders are expressing almost identical complaints about the status quo with the difference being how to most successfully address these problems which are so deeply embedded that we may be past the point of no return.
I am a true, die hard conservative who disagrees with Bernie Sanders philosophically on probably every issue BUT I do respect him and think that he is a good, decent human being unlike Hillary who is probably a criminal.
I might even be able to live with a President Sanders as long as he didn't continue the Obama practice of violating the Constitution in his means of governing using his Pen & Phone instead of the processes set forth in the Constitution.
Hillary would remember with alacrity how Obama has ignored the other side of the aisle even when the GOP has had the majority (Without any push back from Boehner, McConnell and now Ryan, btw) and just emulate Obama's illegal MO.
The problem with Trump is that in some ways his phenomenon very closely resembles the Obama phenomenon of 2008 (which I never fell for) that has produced the most dangerously inept and destructive presidency in the country's history.
Who then?
Personally, I'm going with the NON politician who has a checkered past morally, philosophically and in his political associations.
A leap of faith? Yes. A desperate one.
To compare these two people are comparing a street fight and a boxing match. Sanders is a politician who has political ambitions and argues the United States and the world's best.
Trump argues for its own sake and his own ambition.
Sanders is a leader with a focus on policy and commitment.
Trump wants to be the star and director of a religious group and suporters. He wants to push down people who do not fit him and a little minioritet.
Sanders is a noble politicians and gives a good impression.
Trump wants to be the boss and meet his supporters self-glorification.
We in Sweden Trump looks more like a clown, and wonder how such a person can get so far in a presidential election.
Trump argues for its own sake and his own ambition.
Sanders is a leader with a focus on policy and commitment.
Trump wants to be the star and director of a religious group and suporters. He wants to push down people who do not fit him and a little minioritet.
Sanders is a noble politicians and gives a good impression.
Trump wants to be the boss and meet his supporters self-glorification.
We in Sweden Trump looks more like a clown, and wonder how such a person can get so far in a presidential election.
2
VISUALIZE BERNIE TAKING THE OATH OF OFFICE. Can you see him there? See him in his black overcoat, signature white hair blowing in the crisp breeze of the bright January day as he raises his right hand and takes the oath, sunlight glinting off his spectacles? Behold the sea of wall-to-wall faces of every color, stretching through the entire Washington Mall and beyond, like it was the historic day of Dr. King’s “I Have A Dream” speech? You pause inwardly to reflect on this moment, and feel your breath expand and relax, somehow knowing, deep down that, yes, he is safe and protected, for the work that needs to be done, for the benefit of all. And now--hear the roar of the exuberant crowd suddenly and solemnly hush? Because it is at this point...you hear him say the words, in his baritone, Brooklyn accent, "I, Bernard Sanders, do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." You literally feel the crowd erupt in a volcano of cheers as Phase II of the Revolution now begins, and you feel your heart burst with joy, a lump in your throat, and tears stream down your face as you find yourself laughing and crying at the same time...
Crunch Time people--we’ve gotta pull out ALL the stops--not just the physical, but the mental and spiritual as well, by visualizing the endpoint, fully and emotionally.
Crunch Time people--we’ve gotta pull out ALL the stops--not just the physical, but the mental and spiritual as well, by visualizing the endpoint, fully and emotionally.
@WelcomeOm: And then we can just visualize the Republican Congress passing single-payer health care and free college and shutting down the banks and it will all be true. Some of you Sanders supporters inhabit a fantasy-land.
2
You don't understand Trump.
He will get it done by making America great again, and he will make America great again by getting it done, unlike Obama, who didn't get it done, and made America a disaster.
I hope that clears it up for you.
He will get it done by making America great again, and he will make America great again by getting it done, unlike Obama, who didn't get it done, and made America a disaster.
I hope that clears it up for you.
2
There is only one thing clear here. The NYT has show it's true colors. I'm starting to notice the bias in repeated articles with an attempt to group Bernie Sanders supporters with Donald Trump supporters to hurt Bernie's movement. Its obvious that the NYT is supportive of Hillary Clinton. I mean. Are Hillary's supporters supposed to be the middle ground and a "Happy" bunch while everyone is angry? This article is nonsense. We are not angry. We are looking for ways to reduce economic inequality and improve American lives.
3
John Leland is the best reporter at the NYT. That does not change the fact that The Wall Street Journal, the NYT, and the Washington Post are all upset about Bernie Sanders and attacking him. Of course they are! They all attacked Martin Luther King Jr. as well. They all supported the war in Iraq, as did Hillary Clinton. It took over 10 years for Hillary to admit this was a mistake. The establishment media would have us believe that Bernie Sanders is too radical. They think we cannot change the fact, for example, that one family, the owners of Wal-Mart (a huge beneficiary of corporate welfare, paid for by you and me), owns more wealth than 40% of the American people. They think it's fine that Hillary Clinton, who opposes a $15 minimum wage and served on the Board of Directors of Wal-Mart for six years and never raised her voice for the impoverished workers there, is somehow a better candidate than Bernie Sanders. They think it's impossible or unrealistic for the US to have single-payer health insurance for all, like all other Western countries have. They hate the idea of higher taxes on millionaires and billionaires, even though Sanders is proposing nothing higher than the rates we had for the wealthy in the booming 60's and 90's. They say Sanders never can be elected, and that even if he is elected, he never can achieve his goals. Wrong. The American public agrees, by large majorities, with everything he is proposing.
3
These two candidates are not in the same universe; the contortion required to squeeze them into the same byline is mind-bending.
Sanders' supporters are not angry. They are energized and committed. Sanders has authenticity and is a genuine public servant, fearless, committed and much more experienced than anyone else running. He is not radical, he is substantive and truthful. His supporters are passionate, well-informed and he hasn't promised them what he will do, he has called on them to help. No other candidate can do that with credibility, no one else has worked as hard for entirely self-less reasons. He is liked because he is an awfully good man.
Trump supporters are not angry, they are racist, misogynistic underachievers sympathetic with a rich white guy who can't figure out why rich white guys don't to seem to make the rules anymore. My father-in-law explained his support "Well, he build this beautiful golf course." Fortunately, my father-in-law prefers looking at Megyn Kelly and pressed to choose, he'll go with the one in the evening gown. That is his level of commitment. Neither the candidates nor their base share any common characteristic. Oil and water. Slick and toxic versus refreshing and cleansing.
Sanders' supporters are not angry. They are energized and committed. Sanders has authenticity and is a genuine public servant, fearless, committed and much more experienced than anyone else running. He is not radical, he is substantive and truthful. His supporters are passionate, well-informed and he hasn't promised them what he will do, he has called on them to help. No other candidate can do that with credibility, no one else has worked as hard for entirely self-less reasons. He is liked because he is an awfully good man.
Trump supporters are not angry, they are racist, misogynistic underachievers sympathetic with a rich white guy who can't figure out why rich white guys don't to seem to make the rules anymore. My father-in-law explained his support "Well, he build this beautiful golf course." Fortunately, my father-in-law prefers looking at Megyn Kelly and pressed to choose, he'll go with the one in the evening gown. That is his level of commitment. Neither the candidates nor their base share any common characteristic. Oil and water. Slick and toxic versus refreshing and cleansing.
1
When you vote, just ask yourself:
Who would I want to go toe to toe with Putin, ISIS, N. Korea?
Who would l want to fix the economy?
Who would be best for my childrens future?
Who would I want to fix our broken borders?
Who would I want to go toe to toe with Putin, ISIS, N. Korea?
Who would l want to fix the economy?
Who would be best for my childrens future?
Who would I want to fix our broken borders?
2
Trump has got so much to be angry about.
This society failed to provide Trump with opportunities.
He was discriminated against for his blonde hair.
The country taxed away all of his earnings and left him with nothing.
With what he was left, he couldn't compete with immigrants working for lower wages.
Got my meaning? This is a man whose anger is insincere. This is a man whose anger is built on a lie.
This is not a man who gives a darn about the working class.
He's a product of the winner take all society and he wants to keep it that way. Anybody thinks that, after he boots the immigrants out there's going to be rising wages, like some of you white workers believe, well your lack of a college education is showing?
By the false, for the fools. Trump forever. America's brilliant founding fathers are rolling over in their graves. Conservatives don't conserve intelligence, that's for sure.
This society failed to provide Trump with opportunities.
He was discriminated against for his blonde hair.
The country taxed away all of his earnings and left him with nothing.
With what he was left, he couldn't compete with immigrants working for lower wages.
Got my meaning? This is a man whose anger is insincere. This is a man whose anger is built on a lie.
This is not a man who gives a darn about the working class.
He's a product of the winner take all society and he wants to keep it that way. Anybody thinks that, after he boots the immigrants out there's going to be rising wages, like some of you white workers believe, well your lack of a college education is showing?
By the false, for the fools. Trump forever. America's brilliant founding fathers are rolling over in their graves. Conservatives don't conserve intelligence, that's for sure.
2
Don't forget -- his hair is a natural dark brown.
And he not only dyes the hair -- he dyes his eyebrows.
Such vanity.
And he not only dyes the hair -- he dyes his eyebrows.
Such vanity.
1
I was lying the other day about voting for Trump if Bernie does not run; instead I will write in Bernie's name.
4
I'm calling out this article as a farce. The majority of Trumps supporters are NOT white males, of which Trump only has 27%. Whereas he's got 57% Women, 45% hispanics, 41% blacks, and 55%Republican, 39% Dems, 33% independents. That's the fact Jack!
2
Facts from where exactly? As I teach my students, you always need to cite your source; if not, your statements fall under the Begging the Question fallacy.
1
Link to your source?
so you see white males as a demographic group independent of political party? perhaps borrow a statistical sampling textbook?
The reason for so much anger on both the left and the right is that both parties cater primarily to the rich. The GOP basically gives the rich everything they want (or tries to anyway). The Dems give the rich almost everything they want with the occasional scrap tossed to the poor. There's a good reason for this, both parties are basically just puppets for their campaign donors. Neither party has done ANYTHING for the middle class in decades.
The Dems promise to raise your taxes and give it to the poor, usually without affecting the taxes for the truely rich (news flash, the rich don't care about income tax brackets, they care about investment taxes). The GOP promises to cut taxes for the rich gutting regulations that prevent your boss from exploiting you or poisoning you.
And the pundits wonder why voter turnout is abysmal for both parties? The poor don't vote for the most part, so all those anti poverty programs do nothing to help the Dems. As for the middle class, there's not enough difference between the economic plans for either party to matter much so the only reason to vote is social issues or the environment.
The Dems promise to raise your taxes and give it to the poor, usually without affecting the taxes for the truely rich (news flash, the rich don't care about income tax brackets, they care about investment taxes). The GOP promises to cut taxes for the rich gutting regulations that prevent your boss from exploiting you or poisoning you.
And the pundits wonder why voter turnout is abysmal for both parties? The poor don't vote for the most part, so all those anti poverty programs do nothing to help the Dems. As for the middle class, there's not enough difference between the economic plans for either party to matter much so the only reason to vote is social issues or the environment.
4
Historically I think what you say is true. Sander's stands alone as a candidate, completely alone as one that does not take money from the corporations and directly addresses income inequality on a systematic scale.
Little-known fact: party affiliation is at record lows. Independents now comprise the largest chunk of the voters at 40%, as opposed to the D/R which are in the mid-20 percentiles.
Sanders supporters are the only ones directing their anger at the right places. You don't direct your anger about illegal immigrants at the immigrants but at the companies that hire them illegally without asking for their documents. If you're angry about paying taxes and runaway government spending, don't blame the poorest because they get food stamps to barely survive. Blame the very profitable corporations that aren't even paying taxes while receiving subsidies, the Wall Street CEOs who broke the rules, kept their jobs and million-dollar bonuses while they crashed the economy, destroyed working people's jobs, home equity and retirement accounts, and collected taxpayer bailouts. In short, anger should be directed where the power is, not at the powerless. In voting for billionaire Trump, people are voting for the powerful and greedy who have created and worked "the system" for their own benefit. Bernie Sanders wants to make "the system" work for everyone, and it's high time somebody did.
11
You should turn this into a flyer and hand it out at every rally.
Are you going to be a voter who supports the government we need or a continuation of the government we have. There is a pretend campaign between Hillary and any one of the Republicans. Hillary is a corporate /Wall Street stealth presidential candidate representing the .1%, with a gloss of social responsibility. If the Democratic primaries vote Hillary in we will have the choice of 1% vs 1% in the general election.
Every major reform or change starts out with a vision. It becomes reality when enough people support it with enthusiasm. They are trying to bury us. They do not realize we are seeds.
Democracy needs Bernie. He is capitalism's best hope, just as he is democracy’s best hope. Only Bernie offers concrete proposals to reduce inequality, to take big money out of politics and to rein back the march toward oligarchy. We need Bernie to re-strengthen the middle class. We need a strong middle class to restore democracy.
feelthebern.org *** Bernie’s WebSite explaining issues—click on a block
(now also in Spanish: open feelthebern.org and click Spanish at the top)
Every major reform or change starts out with a vision. It becomes reality when enough people support it with enthusiasm. They are trying to bury us. They do not realize we are seeds.
Democracy needs Bernie. He is capitalism's best hope, just as he is democracy’s best hope. Only Bernie offers concrete proposals to reduce inequality, to take big money out of politics and to rein back the march toward oligarchy. We need Bernie to re-strengthen the middle class. We need a strong middle class to restore democracy.
feelthebern.org *** Bernie’s WebSite explaining issues—click on a block
(now also in Spanish: open feelthebern.org and click Spanish at the top)
5
Nothing bothers me more are people bieng one tracked, close minded or so quick to label . There's alot of minds in this country, everyone bieng individual. you shouldn't label or underestimate even one of them. One thing most of us share and should all share are the values and virtues that has set in motion, the vehicle, that made our economy what it has become . Also the people who founded and sacrificed there lives for it . I'm afraid if we all do not sacrifice by setting aside our differences, we will all surely suffer in the end.
2
So are you going to vote for Trump?
Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are the best the Democrats can do? If I had to vote for one of them I would vote for Sanders. At least he is honest.
4
Both main US political parties are so mired in corruption, complacency and irresponsible greed and incompetence that they have produced a government that has zero commitment or capability to protect the genuine economic interests, security and even physical survival of the American people.
I'd love to see Trump and/or Sanders as options in November.
I'd love to see Trump and/or Sanders as options in November.
5
and every time there has been a maverick, independent cause-driven alternative candidate in the past 50 years, voters have elected a Dem or a GOPer. Bernie has been in politics his entire career. Trump can't live without bank loans. they just yell a lot and spout about independence and voters follow their siren songs. How silly.
1
I support a candidate who hasn't sold out to lobbyists and who defends the American working class over corporate interests who want unlimited immigration and cheap labor. I support a candidate who will right the ship of horrible trade deals going back thirty years, that have exported millions of good paying jobs, again where our working class suffer the most. I support a candidate who has been attacked by ALL the media and who confounds the pundits and the political class and the establishment who sit in horror as he rises in the polls. I hope he wins.
9
President Sanders is a pipe-dream; American voters will never chose to become another Venezuela, France, Cuba, Brazil, Greece. President Trump is also a pipe-dream, as a U.S. that looks like Argentina or Chile in the 1970s is also out of the question. Unless she is indicted by the DOJ, Hillary Clinton should be the next President of the U.S. by default. Depressing thought but we'll muddle through to 2020.
1
I'm a conservative, so conservative that I refused to vote for either McCain or Romney. That said, if my choices were Clinton/Sanders, I'd vote for Bernie in a heartbeat on the assumption Congress would curb his socialist extremes, but enable Hillary's corporate cronyism.
6
There was a brief period following WWII, when some social legislation was passed. Otherwise both major parties have always represented business interests. The US is basically a plutocracy, governed by the wealthy and for their benefit.
The grass roots movement supporting Mr. Sanders will only be meaningful if it continues, win or lose after the Nov. election.
The grass roots movement supporting Mr. Sanders will only be meaningful if it continues, win or lose after the Nov. election.
3
Medicare? Civil rights act? ADA? Marriage equality? Affordable care act? Title IX? NO social justice legislation since the 40's? Re-read history without blinders.
1
Please point out where I state no social legislation was passed since the 40's. My point was that the 40's was a period of a social unrest, the rise of unions and a movement to the left of the political spectrum. Of course there's been progressive legislation passed since then. It makes sense to throw people the occasional bone.
It's not really so much anger, it is authenticity. All the other candidates are selling their souls, Sanders and Trump just say what they truly believe.
I sympathize with Trump on one message only, that's the fact that he is slapping political correctness, which I have felt for years now as an oppressive force that has been suffocating and infantilizing America, straight in the face. That alone deserves admiration and support. What turns me off Trump as an electable candidate is the remainder of his intolerant and in part crazy and dangerous messages.
Overall, my support during the election is with Bernie Sanders. Not because I am socialist, far from it, but because Bernie deep down is supporting all the right core conservative values. If he were elected, political reality would ensure that his exaggerations won't make it through Congress. But as a President, he would be setting the right tone for America. He is not really THAT different from LBJ, you know.
I sympathize with Trump on one message only, that's the fact that he is slapping political correctness, which I have felt for years now as an oppressive force that has been suffocating and infantilizing America, straight in the face. That alone deserves admiration and support. What turns me off Trump as an electable candidate is the remainder of his intolerant and in part crazy and dangerous messages.
Overall, my support during the election is with Bernie Sanders. Not because I am socialist, far from it, but because Bernie deep down is supporting all the right core conservative values. If he were elected, political reality would ensure that his exaggerations won't make it through Congress. But as a President, he would be setting the right tone for America. He is not really THAT different from LBJ, you know.
6
Amen
1
What Sanders' and Trump's supporters have in common is a disdain for politicians they view as having no credibility. Other candidates are looked at as self-serving opportunists, unprincipled prevaricators who merely spout the latest focus group tested, ad agency massaged slogan, slogans which will change with the next set of poll data or rich donor's contribution. Trump and Sanders have credibility with many precisely because they clearly do not fit that stereotype. What they say would never pass the traditional tests.
A highly recommended Commenter on another article who wrote, "How any union member can support a Republican after the last 30 years of Republican efforts and success in weakening unions is simply incomprehensible" demonstrates the essential progressive problem: an inability to understand Trump's popularity. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, "It's the narrative and the credibility, stupid!"
Trump weaves a story many relate to on a visceral level. As he spun the narrative Thursday regarding the Fox thing: they're picking on me, it's not fair, and when someone picks on you, you have to stand up to them.
As to credibility, he is the only GOP candidate who does not sound as if he is reading from a script. The same is true with Sanders.
You may not like Trump or what he says, but not being able to understand his appeal is a sure way to being unable to counter that appeal.
A highly recommended Commenter on another article who wrote, "How any union member can support a Republican after the last 30 years of Republican efforts and success in weakening unions is simply incomprehensible" demonstrates the essential progressive problem: an inability to understand Trump's popularity. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, "It's the narrative and the credibility, stupid!"
Trump weaves a story many relate to on a visceral level. As he spun the narrative Thursday regarding the Fox thing: they're picking on me, it's not fair, and when someone picks on you, you have to stand up to them.
As to credibility, he is the only GOP candidate who does not sound as if he is reading from a script. The same is true with Sanders.
You may not like Trump or what he says, but not being able to understand his appeal is a sure way to being unable to counter that appeal.
2
It's too bad Sanders keeps getting lumped with trump. Trump speaks only in rhetoric, speaks in exclamations. He speaks with chaos and anger. Bernie outlines his plans. He conveys hope and proposes actual solution methods.
I don't know people keep slamming Bernie as such a radical... because he dares to use the word "socialism"? Our country is both capitalistic and socialist, who doesn't understand that?
Trump supporters, I guess.
I don't know people keep slamming Bernie as such a radical... because he dares to use the word "socialism"? Our country is both capitalistic and socialist, who doesn't understand that?
Trump supporters, I guess.
4
Bernie Sanders' policies, if enacted, would put us another $10 trillion in debt per term.
2
I think it's not 100% correct to categorize trump as being only about immigration. A BIG chunk of his support comes from, much like Sanders, worries on the economy. Sanders is targeting the banks and big CEO's, while Trump is targeting the Industrial sector that has outsourced the country's manufacturing industry.
Honestly both have more in common than people want to admit. They just have varying ways they feel they can fix it.
I'm personally, voting for Trump, because I dont think Sanders' plans are realistic, and I dont think they would help. In my eyes, the real root cause of all our economic woes since the turn of the millennium, has been the fact that our industrial jobs have been leaking out of the country. Industry is the bread and butter of the middle class. Detroit was built on Automobile manufacturing jobs. And when those all left, look at what happened to Detroit. Detroit should have been a wake up call. It is the prototype for America's future if we don't bring back Manufacturing. Although Trump's foreign policy also interests me, (I feel that we should NOT be taking in refugees, and stopping the immigration of people from Islamic nations is common sense, we did the same in WW2 with the Axis countries) it is the economic plans, his views on trade, that are my primary motivation.
Honestly both have more in common than people want to admit. They just have varying ways they feel they can fix it.
I'm personally, voting for Trump, because I dont think Sanders' plans are realistic, and I dont think they would help. In my eyes, the real root cause of all our economic woes since the turn of the millennium, has been the fact that our industrial jobs have been leaking out of the country. Industry is the bread and butter of the middle class. Detroit was built on Automobile manufacturing jobs. And when those all left, look at what happened to Detroit. Detroit should have been a wake up call. It is the prototype for America's future if we don't bring back Manufacturing. Although Trump's foreign policy also interests me, (I feel that we should NOT be taking in refugees, and stopping the immigration of people from Islamic nations is common sense, we did the same in WW2 with the Axis countries) it is the economic plans, his views on trade, that are my primary motivation.
2
Trump's plans are realistic, eh? A wall with Mexico?
1
The ONLY commonality between Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders is this;
Neither Trump or Sanders have campaigns financed by SuperPacs : but
this is where their commonality stops: and there is NO further commonality
between these two candidates: in fact there is an extreme polar difference
between Trump and Sanders.
Trump cares about Trump.
and
Sanders cares about the entire population of the USA...all the people who
live in the USA...and those who would immigrate to the USA...
in essence Bernie really cares about YOU...
.and Donald Trump...does NOT care about you...not really......no...he cares about himself and getting what he wants....The White House...about winning
the election...just to get what he wants..that's the zero sum up of Trump.
Neither Trump or Sanders have campaigns financed by SuperPacs : but
this is where their commonality stops: and there is NO further commonality
between these two candidates: in fact there is an extreme polar difference
between Trump and Sanders.
Trump cares about Trump.
and
Sanders cares about the entire population of the USA...all the people who
live in the USA...and those who would immigrate to the USA...
in essence Bernie really cares about YOU...
.and Donald Trump...does NOT care about you...not really......no...he cares about himself and getting what he wants....The White House...about winning
the election...just to get what he wants..that's the zero sum up of Trump.
3
If you analyse the few hints Trump left about his concrete policies, you can see he's very smart. He has a two layered system of doing politics:
1) there's an outer, bright colored, aesthetic layer, used as a screen-saver to deceive the masses, where he proposes absurd things (either because they are morally condemnable or because they are totally beside the point). It's pro-gun lobby, anti-abortion, anti-gay rights, anti-labour, anti-welfare, anti-tax, climate change denying rhetoric that everybody knows. These are issues that he can use as distraction and even swing some random voters, but most important, he can distract the post-modern, "hipster" rich liberals that have the most resources to hurt him in the short term.
2) the real raison d'être of his campaigning, the invisible but real layer, which is the economic reforms. He knows he's a representative of Wall Street moguls and the industrial-military complex, but that the main basis of the Republican party are the old white male workers of the suburbs, many of them small business owners or self-employed. This basis is basically America's petty bourgeoisie - a recalcitrant and decaying class that was grown to believe they are the backbone of democracy and economy. SO he has to deceive them. They are the real pillar of sustenance of Trump. That's why he proposes things like cutting taxes, reduce government spending (except for medicare for the elderly) and taxing imports (i.e. the virtual extinction of NAFTA).
1) there's an outer, bright colored, aesthetic layer, used as a screen-saver to deceive the masses, where he proposes absurd things (either because they are morally condemnable or because they are totally beside the point). It's pro-gun lobby, anti-abortion, anti-gay rights, anti-labour, anti-welfare, anti-tax, climate change denying rhetoric that everybody knows. These are issues that he can use as distraction and even swing some random voters, but most important, he can distract the post-modern, "hipster" rich liberals that have the most resources to hurt him in the short term.
2) the real raison d'être of his campaigning, the invisible but real layer, which is the economic reforms. He knows he's a representative of Wall Street moguls and the industrial-military complex, but that the main basis of the Republican party are the old white male workers of the suburbs, many of them small business owners or self-employed. This basis is basically America's petty bourgeoisie - a recalcitrant and decaying class that was grown to believe they are the backbone of democracy and economy. SO he has to deceive them. They are the real pillar of sustenance of Trump. That's why he proposes things like cutting taxes, reduce government spending (except for medicare for the elderly) and taxing imports (i.e. the virtual extinction of NAFTA).
1
I support Sanders because he supports sound, progressive policies. I love Sanders because he is full of love. This man has a giant heart which has cracked open the cynicism that feels like my only defense against the propaganda of politicians with Trojan hearts.
5
"Brad Nelson, 50, ... said that he had last turned out for a caucus to support Ronald Reagan in 1980..." So 15 year olds can caucus?
1
This is the mother of false equivalence articles, the new specialite de la maison Times.
8
There are millions of Democrats that will join Repubs and vote for Trump. There 'might' be 2 dozen Repubs that join Dems to vote for socialist Bernie.
Can you say President Trump ?
Can you say President Trump ?
1
It just gets down to this: Republicans stand for "ME" and Democrats for "WE". Simple as that, sadly...
5
Both cater to dissatisfied and frustrated voters, but Bernie appeals to hope while Trump appeals to hate.
6
There is an enormous difference between a group of angry voters, the Republicans who have been feed eight years of anti-Obama propaganda by the GOP who pledged to block every Obama might try to make, and a group of voters who are angry because they are victims of the widening gap between the 0.1% and everyone else.
The same GOP that signed a blood oath against all of Obama's efforts to improve life for poor and middle class has in fact worked diligently to do the bidding of that same 0.1%.
The sad truth is that those same angry white working class Republicans would be better served by Bernie Sanders than any of the candidates of their own Party, the GOP, who has sold them down the river.
The same GOP that signed a blood oath against all of Obama's efforts to improve life for poor and middle class has in fact worked diligently to do the bidding of that same 0.1%.
The sad truth is that those same angry white working class Republicans would be better served by Bernie Sanders than any of the candidates of their own Party, the GOP, who has sold them down the river.
3
"Sanders and Trump Voters Share Anger, but Reasons Vary"
If their reasons for anger are different, what does the Times mean when it says they "share" that anger?
"People Who Recently Quit Smoking and Trump Voters Share Anger, but Reasons Vary"
If their reasons for anger are different, what does the Times mean when it says they "share" that anger?
"People Who Recently Quit Smoking and Trump Voters Share Anger, but Reasons Vary"
4
Sanders and his supporters believe the scientific evidence that Climate Change is occurring and that is is human caused. Sanders ranks addressing Climate Change as one of his top issues.
Trump denies the science of Climate Change and one would guess that so does many or most of his supporters.
I'm voting and donating and volunteering for Sanders because I want us to leave an inhabitable planet for our kids and grandkids. I believe Sanders understands the urgency and will work harder on addressing Climate Change than Clinton. I fear addressing Climate Change would get put to the back burner if Clinton got in the White House. And we don't have another 4-8 years to waste.
(And for anyone who thinks that Clinton will do as good of a job addressing Climate Change as Bernie, look up the articles Bill McKibben of 350 dot org has written about the two Democratic candidates. Hillary has been largely a disappointment in regards to addressing Climate Change so far, why would she change if she got in the White House?
Trump denies the science of Climate Change and one would guess that so does many or most of his supporters.
I'm voting and donating and volunteering for Sanders because I want us to leave an inhabitable planet for our kids and grandkids. I believe Sanders understands the urgency and will work harder on addressing Climate Change than Clinton. I fear addressing Climate Change would get put to the back burner if Clinton got in the White House. And we don't have another 4-8 years to waste.
(And for anyone who thinks that Clinton will do as good of a job addressing Climate Change as Bernie, look up the articles Bill McKibben of 350 dot org has written about the two Democratic candidates. Hillary has been largely a disappointment in regards to addressing Climate Change so far, why would she change if she got in the White House?
1
What Sanders' and Trump's supporters have in common is a disdain for politicians they view as having no credibility. Other candidates are looked at as self-serving opportunists, unprincipled prevaricators who merely spout the latest focus group tested, ad agency massaged slogan, slogans which will change with the next set of poll data or rich donor's contribution. Trump and Sanders have credibility with many precisely because they clearly do not fit that stereotype. What they say would never pass the traditional tests.
A highly recommended Commenter on another article who wrote, "How any union member can support a Republican after the last 30 years of Republican efforts and success in weakening unions is simply incomprehensible" demonstrates the essential progressive problem: an inability to understand Trump's popularity. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, "It's the narrative and the credibility, stupid!"
Trump weaves a story many relate to on a visceral level. As he spun the narrative Thursday regarding the Fox thing: they're picking on me, it's not fair, and when someone picks on you, you have to stand up to them.
As to credibility, he is the only GOP candidate who does not sound as if he is reading from a script. The same is true with Sanders.
You may not like Trump or what he says, but not being able to understand his appeal is a sure way to being unable to counter that appeal.
A highly recommended Commenter on another article who wrote, "How any union member can support a Republican after the last 30 years of Republican efforts and success in weakening unions is simply incomprehensible" demonstrates the essential progressive problem: an inability to understand Trump's popularity. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, "It's the narrative and the credibility, stupid!"
Trump weaves a story many relate to on a visceral level. As he spun the narrative Thursday regarding the Fox thing: they're picking on me, it's not fair, and when someone picks on you, you have to stand up to them.
As to credibility, he is the only GOP candidate who does not sound as if he is reading from a script. The same is true with Sanders.
You may not like Trump or what he says, but not being able to understand his appeal is a sure way to being unable to counter that appeal.
1
I am a grassroots Bernie supporter and I do a lot of campaign work, like collecting petition signatures, organizing phone banking parties, organizing with volunteers, going to meetings to learn how to do this, traveling to NH to canvass, handing out information about Bernie, cold calling people in early caucus states, and running an online Bernie group. When people tell me they don't want any information about Bernie, I smile and say have a good day. It's a lot of work... not just for me, but my local Bernie group, and we've been at this since June. We do this on our "free time" which means we aren't watching FB on weekends. We're not angry... I've not met one angry person in my group.. we're not "Bernie Bros" (the newest slur we've had to endure), we're all educated, some of us have money, none of us are lazy, we are mostly older, we are from a mix of different parties, but many of us changed to Dem to vote him in in the primary. We keep in touch with the younger group that is local..... phew....we do a lot! And then, I read something condescending in the news about us. I think my point is this. We're dedicated to real and meaningful change in this country, and no one in the MMM is giving us an ounce of credit. Not just for us... but for everyone! Can you HRC or Trump or Cruz supporters do all this for your candidate to get them elected? Maybe... but, I haven't seen you out there.
Feel the Bern!!
Feel the Bern!!
4
Here's what Trump and Sanders have in common: They both believe, falsely, that the United States can and should mirror the policies of another country they deeply admire. For Trump, it's Russia; for Sanders, it's Finland. Both of them are delusional in this respect.
2
Both Trump and Sanders are not scripted and tell it like it is. No one wants to hear what is not politically correct. Both men do not have scandals and both are passionate about their political stand.
Trump has no scandals??? Did you miss the "Best SEX I Ever Had" front page headline of NY Post during his affair with Marla -- while he was still married to Ivana and his kids were old enough to read it? Marla and Ivana confrontation on the ski slopes? Multiple major bankruptcies that put thousanda out of jobs? The Ivana divorce? The Marla divorce? The showgirl evenings? Sorry Times has a word limit -- would recommend some basic Google research to get into reality. How many times in this campaign alone has he been confronted with video of his own words (I'm pro chouce, I LOVE Hillary and Bill, etc.) and he just laughs and says hey, you have to lie and suck up to people with power? He's a one-man show of scandal, deceit and dishonesty.
1
@Janis
Correction: One of them does not "have scandals".
The other is a poor businessman who has declared bankruptcy three times, has been sued dozens of times, and was unfaithful to his first wife.
Correction: One of them does not "have scandals".
The other is a poor businessman who has declared bankruptcy three times, has been sued dozens of times, and was unfaithful to his first wife.
2
I am so sick of this paper and other media equating these two people. Trump is a disgusting man who says things like " if I shot someone in Times Sq. my followers would still be with me" Just vile garbage esp. in this day and age. And from what I have seen and read, most of the people that support him don't know anything about the world, the real problems or have any solutions. Trump changes his opinion and thoughts every other day depending on whose questioning him or how he feels. Yes he has his own money, but it was given to him by his father.
Bernie Sanders has been saying the same things for 25 years. He has a proven record as a Mayor, Representative and Senator. He is a thoughtful man who I have never heard personally insult anyone. I have have seen his wife get interviewed now a couple times and she is just a wonderful person who you want to hear and see more of. His supporters like me are people that read papers, watch all the outlets, and know the difference between ISIS and Iran and Iraq.
Senator Sanders has put out there everything he wants to do and is honest about it. Trump has done nothing but rant about an immigration problem that doesn't even exist, insult everyone and say he'll "make America great", of course without any details, because it's just foolish words with nothing behind it. And all the saps that watched his stupid TV show think this is policy. It's just another way for the Times to try and keep Bernie down. It won't work.. Thank you very much.
Bernie Sanders has been saying the same things for 25 years. He has a proven record as a Mayor, Representative and Senator. He is a thoughtful man who I have never heard personally insult anyone. I have have seen his wife get interviewed now a couple times and she is just a wonderful person who you want to hear and see more of. His supporters like me are people that read papers, watch all the outlets, and know the difference between ISIS and Iran and Iraq.
Senator Sanders has put out there everything he wants to do and is honest about it. Trump has done nothing but rant about an immigration problem that doesn't even exist, insult everyone and say he'll "make America great", of course without any details, because it's just foolish words with nothing behind it. And all the saps that watched his stupid TV show think this is policy. It's just another way for the Times to try and keep Bernie down. It won't work.. Thank you very much.
4
Rule #1 in America - it's the people vs. money. Money wins when people are too busy to mobilize, but when they do no amount of money can stop them. Get out and caucus!
2
Sorry, NY Times, but this article feels like a desperate attempt to lump together Sanders with Trump supporters in a last ditch effort to save Hillary's candidacy. Both Sanders and Trump may be appealing to a large swath of American voters who feel betrayed by both parties, but the similarity dead-ends there. Sanders' message has been authentic and consistent not just over the campaign but throughout his time in public office. And he walks the talk. Trump is a carnival barker who says whatever he thinks will sell the circus show.
For years voters have been asking for an authentic candidate who is not owned by Wall Street and Corporate America, and that is Sanders. He is the first candidate to whose campaign I have contributed, and he is our last best hope to restore small d democracy to our government.
For years voters have been asking for an authentic candidate who is not owned by Wall Street and Corporate America, and that is Sanders. He is the first candidate to whose campaign I have contributed, and he is our last best hope to restore small d democracy to our government.
3
I have been stating this very point for months. They are two sides of the same coin. Both are good at leveraging anger, at identifying the problems, at railing at institutions. Both offer no real policies other than "free pie in the sky" strategy by Sanders and "im rich, therefore I can fix it" argumentation from Trump. What they both cash in on is ignorance. Sanders by selling the reheated version of the failed ideology which is only being bought by the young who have never learned history and the old who feel rejuvenated by the return to the follies of their youth. Trump is selling a garden variety populism with a healthy sprinkle of fascism. An old formula which worked for a while for many a dictator from Hitler to Putin. it's a sad commentary on our education that they are able to get so many to buy their nonsense.
3
Supporters of both candidates have had enough of the crony capitalism of which the establishment in each party is involved. Neither candidate is relying on large, third-party corporate donors to fund their campaigns, so neither would owe those donors anything.
1
Their supporters may share an anger, but Bernie and Donald propose very different solutions. Bernie believes in even bigger government. Trump believes in a government that performs more effectively.
The question is which candidate's solutions are more likely to lead to better paying jobs. Bigger government or better trade and taxation policies?
The question is which candidate's solutions are more likely to lead to better paying jobs. Bigger government or better trade and taxation policies?
when has Trump proven or demonstrated any skills at making government -- or any business not financed by bank loans and run by his family -- perform effectively??? Look at his bankrupt projects and businesses as examples -- not so effective as he put thousands out of work? why does everyone buy his fantasies rather than looking at the facts??? the books that praise his business acumen are written by HIM, about HIM. His record of wretched excess and biz failures and ruining workers lives will be great fodder for Dems, just like Romney.
As expected, the Bernie folks in the comments say that - *their* bogeymen are real, as opposed to the other guy's. I'm sure most Trump supporters feel the same way.
Both sides are quite a bit untethered from reality, as this article clearly shows.
Both sides are quite a bit untethered from reality, as this article clearly shows.
1
Anger is the resort of the uncreative mind.
Great photo. What a showman. Remember when Romney was scared to talk about his wealth? Trump has torn up the primary playbook and voters are drawn in.
1
Sanders supporters may, indeed, be angry, but by and large they know who they are angry with and what they are angry about. And if you ask them, most will be able to articulate a list of things that makes their anger well-justified. Trump supporters, by contrast, are belligerent bigots and xenophobes, who cast about for easy scapegoats for their discontent, rather than doing the much harder work of actually thinking about the real causes that lie beneath their unhappiness, and what we might do to address those issues. Sanders articulates a vision of a nation that is willing to act boldly to try to solve some of this nation's most intractable problems. Trump, by contrast, merely gives voice to the undifferentiated rage of his supporters. For Trump and his supporters, it isn't really about solving problems: it's about finding the next social subgroup who will serve as their collective whipping boy.
1
We want the so-called 'donor class' permanently out of our governmental affairs.
We want all the lobbies for foreign governments out of our decision making process.
We want all our tax dollars spent solely on Americans, American national interest, and humanitarian purposes.
With this election, we will show even when armed SCOTUS's foolish ruling, the elites will no longer be dragging us down to poverty while lining their pockets.
Join the political revolution, feel the Bern!
We want all the lobbies for foreign governments out of our decision making process.
We want all our tax dollars spent solely on Americans, American national interest, and humanitarian purposes.
With this election, we will show even when armed SCOTUS's foolish ruling, the elites will no longer be dragging us down to poverty while lining their pockets.
Join the political revolution, feel the Bern!
1
There was a time,not long after the crash of 2008, I began to have this dream about a real person who might be the best President for America. That person was Bernie Sanders. Elizabeth Warren started to figure after a bit. A person could dream I thought, even if nothing every happened that came close to making it a reality. Even if our country, so shattered, broken, and fragmented, would never come together to realize such a dream, of leadership that recognized the shattered, broken, and fragmented American dream, and the landscape laid waste by feckless capitalism, and our sold and franchised democracy. When Bernie announced his candidacy, I was completely supportive and thought, well, here's to a little hope. Even if it never comes to pass. But like Bernie Sanders' soaring candidacy, my hopes are soaring as our shattered, broken, and fragmented citizens have come together, and in spite of all of the feckless walling off, which instruments of the status quo, such as this paper of record, the NYTIMES have done in an attempt to marginalize and destroy the Sanders candidacy and trick people into believing there was only one viable candidate, Hillary Clinton. Shame on You NYTIMES< the people will have their day at the polls and will not forget your machinations on behalf of those who benefit from the shattered, broken, and fragmented American ideal.
Yes, Americans are angry and tired, tired of having both parties focus their campaigns almost exclusively on social issue while ignoring the economic plight of the middle and lower classes.
Thankfully Bernie is forcing the issue on the Democratic side and it looks like he has a good shot, we'll see how Iowa goes.
On the Republican side Trump is also diverging form the usual Republican campaign rhetoric with a much more populist message.
I hope Bernie wins because I think he is the most sincere about his agenda and also has some good policies, but I hope regardless who wins we get some real change though I think it may take a third party breaking up the duopoly of the D's and R's to get that, at least if Bernie doesn't win.
Thankfully Bernie is forcing the issue on the Democratic side and it looks like he has a good shot, we'll see how Iowa goes.
On the Republican side Trump is also diverging form the usual Republican campaign rhetoric with a much more populist message.
I hope Bernie wins because I think he is the most sincere about his agenda and also has some good policies, but I hope regardless who wins we get some real change though I think it may take a third party breaking up the duopoly of the D's and R's to get that, at least if Bernie doesn't win.
Mr Trump's followers irk me because of their seeming entitlement based on their skin color. It should have been obvious to them as they grew up that a college degree was necessary to live comfortably. But the example in this article of a man who works graveyard at a convenience store and is angry about immigrants says it all: "I expect to live well even though I am too lazy to work hard and get ahead." Any American who competes with illegal immigrants is a failure and should accept the consequence of their failure.
I can't help but be astonished at the hullabaloo over caucuses in a state that is totally unrepresentative of the rest of the nation and is probably not likely to have a long term real affect on the final party choice. On the Republican side it is entertaining in an appalling 1930s deja vu sort of way: Will the US go for an authoritarian narcissist (Trump or Cruz) or a more modest Christian Sharia believer like Kasich? On the Democratic side, the real issue is whether people are disappointed and angry enough at Republican run government to turn out to vote in November no matter who the Democratic nominee turns out to be.
Everyone wants our country to be the happy, old place where everyone was welcome, jobs were plenty and roses covered grandmas starched apron while apple pie was cooling on the window sill. Me too, but facts are, grandmas dead, no one welcomes strangers anymore, and if the pie didn't get stolen it was probably a frozen one from Wallyworld. Embrace the change. We are still the luckiest people on earth.
I am no fan of Trump but I think he is not a truly abhorrent person. Although he is deeply unstylish, I think he is an honest person doing his best. This places him squarely in a 2-way race versus Bernie Sanders. The other candidates are not at all relevant to the context I have described.
This article is not very well thought out and seems like an attempt to support the status quo (Hillary) by calling out Trump and Bernie supporters as angry, which I think is meant to diminish them.
That said, while there are glaring dissimilarities between the two camps, there is a common concern that overrides all others: politicians in this country are bought and paid for and none of them have done anything to improve the lives of ordinary Americans. We need to focus on our similarities and not be calling each other names because of the differences. We may well need each other if this political revolution is going to succeed.
@SEAFOAMJADE - so good to hear from a Trump supporter calling out the insanity of assuming all Trump supporters are dumb. It just ain't so! So glad you spoke up.
@Nora - thanks for being a Bernie supporter who refuses to badmouth Trump supporters.
Of course Bernie and Trump supporters see some things very differently, but the views they share are so much more important, and politics is often about alliances, and the one thing we're all sick of is politicians who are bought and paid for and work only for the 1%. Best to focus on that - if that got fixed, a lot of these other issues will get better as a result.
That said, while there are glaring dissimilarities between the two camps, there is a common concern that overrides all others: politicians in this country are bought and paid for and none of them have done anything to improve the lives of ordinary Americans. We need to focus on our similarities and not be calling each other names because of the differences. We may well need each other if this political revolution is going to succeed.
@SEAFOAMJADE - so good to hear from a Trump supporter calling out the insanity of assuming all Trump supporters are dumb. It just ain't so! So glad you spoke up.
@Nora - thanks for being a Bernie supporter who refuses to badmouth Trump supporters.
Of course Bernie and Trump supporters see some things very differently, but the views they share are so much more important, and politics is often about alliances, and the one thing we're all sick of is politicians who are bought and paid for and work only for the 1%. Best to focus on that - if that got fixed, a lot of these other issues will get better as a result.
Both are unacceptably extreme and each would alienate too many people in the opposite party. I would prefer not to vote for either, and if faced with the choice would consider Bloomberg.
Bernie Sanders will prioritize and protect the working and middle class...not the banks and corporations that is central to the Bill and Hillary Show for the last 25 years.
1
Having endorsed Hillary Clinton, the NY Times attempts to tip the scale further by trying to suggest that Sanders and Trump are somehow alike. Right.
4
Anger can be good at times but if it is misguided it amounts to nothing but hot air. Trump stirs up a segment of the country but he will not be able to deliver on his promises. Deporting millions of illegal immigrants is just not feasible, this is just one example. Bernie's agendas for change are noble. One of his main goals to go challenge the corrupt and rigged political system. A very tangible problem that is ruining our democracy and creating and oligarchy. In all honesty this is where our anger should be directed. This of course is not realistic in a country that is deeply divided.
The political and economic system is rigged and everybody should be angry about that. So why should I vote for the corporate Democrat who is joined at the hip with the very crowd that uses its money to keep it that way? I've had enough of the Bill and Hillary show dominating the Democratic Party for the last 25 years, moving the party to the right of center by advocating for tax and trade policies that have absolutely contributed to the obscene inequality in this country. NAFTA was so hurtful to working people while enriching the corporations and the result of repealing Glass Steagall has been well documented. DOMA set back LGBT rights for more than a decade. Fast forward to 2016 and for political reasons ONLY, HRC has decided that supporting Keystone and the TPP would be dangerous to her presidential aspiration. We must take back the Democratic Party with true Progressives like Bernie Sanders who will really fight to prioritize and protect the working
1
Leave it to the NYT to reinforce the "angry" person meme so that they can reinforce that their chosen candidate's supporters are the calm, logical ones (and that will tell everybody if Hillary wins "we told you so").
Ummmm. NO.
People on both sides are not necessarily angry, but they understand that this is an election that they may have the opportunity to send a message to those in power that they are not happy about the status quo and that there are candidates that represent them. This election season is about CHANGE and the change candidates are reaping the interest and support.
In addition, while the NYT reinforces yet again that the Donald Trump supports are not as educated as the democratic voters, my own unofficial poll of NYers I know and who trust me for being open-minded have told me that they support Donal Trump, primarily as they think he will be more effective than Bernie Sanders. They prefer not to broadcast their support as this is one of those elections that emotions are high and they don't want to start an argument.
Ultimately, Sanders and Trump are the only candidates that will cause change, albeit from different directions. And their supporters understand that.
Ummmm. NO.
People on both sides are not necessarily angry, but they understand that this is an election that they may have the opportunity to send a message to those in power that they are not happy about the status quo and that there are candidates that represent them. This election season is about CHANGE and the change candidates are reaping the interest and support.
In addition, while the NYT reinforces yet again that the Donald Trump supports are not as educated as the democratic voters, my own unofficial poll of NYers I know and who trust me for being open-minded have told me that they support Donal Trump, primarily as they think he will be more effective than Bernie Sanders. They prefer not to broadcast their support as this is one of those elections that emotions are high and they don't want to start an argument.
Ultimately, Sanders and Trump are the only candidates that will cause change, albeit from different directions. And their supporters understand that.
1
In 1999, Bill Clinton, the other half of the Clinton team, signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act which repealed Glass-Steagall and led to the financial crisis of 2007. Representative Bernie Sanders voted NAY. In 2002, Senator Hillary Clinton voted for George W. Bush's disastrous invasion of Iraq. Representative Bernie Sanders voted NAY. In 2011, Hillary was the principal advocate of the overthrow of Gaddafi which led to chaos in Libya and the rise of ISIL. Bernie advised against it. The number of Americans living in poverty has doubled since 1974, but Hillary talks about the Middle Class; Bernie talks about the poor. Wall Street PACs back Hillary; the people back Bernie. I wish I lived in Iowa and could caucus for Bernie.
2
The corporate news continues to badly misrepresent Sanders' positions, as the current headling NYT article confirms.
Which leaves one wondering how badly it is misrepresenting Trump, as well.
The time for Incrementalism and Xenophobia-Fear-Mongering has ended; both Europe and Japan are now in NIRP (look it up). The US dollar is about to skyrocket, the way it did in 2008..... but much worse. Think, the final scenes of "The Titanic," where the ship is upending, its backside rising into the skies right before it sinks.
This is the immediate future either Trump, or Sanders, will be in the middle of.
Neither the pipsqueaks on the Republican side, nor Hillary's "let's put a little bandage on the knee and see if it keeps the heart pumping" incrementalism, will suffice in the face of this imminent scenario.
Which leaves one wondering how badly it is misrepresenting Trump, as well.
The time for Incrementalism and Xenophobia-Fear-Mongering has ended; both Europe and Japan are now in NIRP (look it up). The US dollar is about to skyrocket, the way it did in 2008..... but much worse. Think, the final scenes of "The Titanic," where the ship is upending, its backside rising into the skies right before it sinks.
This is the immediate future either Trump, or Sanders, will be in the middle of.
Neither the pipsqueaks on the Republican side, nor Hillary's "let's put a little bandage on the knee and see if it keeps the heart pumping" incrementalism, will suffice in the face of this imminent scenario.
1
Let’s face reality here. Bernie and his supporters are not only correct on the issues they are also more numerous than Trump and his supporters who are chasing fogs while viewing the world through the wrong end of the telescope and wallowing in the swamp of warmed-over right-wing Tea-Party misfits and wingnuts.
One thing is guaranteed. There will not only be no shortage of anger and fireworks of protest or complaint from whoever wins or loses in the Iowa caucuses from either party on Monday, but there will continue to be the launching of additional huge volleys of more anger and fireworks of protest or complaint from all candidates all the way to November with lots of casualties on the floor among candidates of both Democrats and Republicans. Anger will turn into ugly !!!
But sanity will triumph over insanity. The angry dreamer from Vermont will be the next President of the United States.
One thing is guaranteed. There will not only be no shortage of anger and fireworks of protest or complaint from whoever wins or loses in the Iowa caucuses from either party on Monday, but there will continue to be the launching of additional huge volleys of more anger and fireworks of protest or complaint from all candidates all the way to November with lots of casualties on the floor among candidates of both Democrats and Republicans. Anger will turn into ugly !!!
But sanity will triumph over insanity. The angry dreamer from Vermont will be the next President of the United States.
2
I don't think anger drives Trump supporters.
It's ignorance. What can Trump deliver but
hysteria, fear and lack of qualifications...
It's ignorance. What can Trump deliver but
hysteria, fear and lack of qualifications...
1
I would be shocked if Trump or Sanders were elected President -- and I'm not going to vote for either of them. But I hope they win at least some primaries and caucuses if it demonstrates that big money doesn't equal political victory and results in far less money being contributed by major donors.
I don't sense enough anger from Hillary Clinton supporters. Where is her passion? Why doesn't she push the idea of having a woman president to the max? Why is she ashamed to push it?
I suggest that Hillary Clinton push the woman president idea to stimulate the economy. The economy seems to be stagnating. Why not encourage more women (and more men) to rise up in the system?
From STAG-NATION to IMAGI-NATION to DETERMI-NATION
=============================================
One step for (W)oman. One giant leap for (H)umankind!
I suggest that Hillary Clinton push the woman president idea to stimulate the economy. The economy seems to be stagnating. Why not encourage more women (and more men) to rise up in the system?
From STAG-NATION to IMAGI-NATION to DETERMI-NATION
=============================================
One step for (W)oman. One giant leap for (H)umankind!
1
The interesting thing about the "body of work" of New York Times writers when it comes to the way they have covered Bernie Sanders is that an eight-grader could easily discern the bias as utterly transparent. It is astonishing that they (the writers) think people of average intelligence can't see through the bias.
There is no comparison whatsoever between both Sanders and Trump, and their supporters. The reasons voters support each of these candidates could not be more distinct.
Trump is playing the classic demagogue, exploiting xenophobic and racist tendencies within a (significant) segment of the Republican base. Also, through his rhetoric and actions he has proven to be a vulgar man. I don't think I have to bring up again the names he's called women and opponents...
Bernie Sanders on the other hand is calling attention to a real issue that resonates with anybody who's paying attention: political corruption due to the influence of powerful business cartels, including Wall Street.
There is no demagoguery in Sander's speech or platform; he's not exploiting xenophobia, nativism, and racism. He's vision is about uniting ALL Americans as one, Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Hispanics, African-Americans, University graduates, high-school drop-outs--everybody.
No comparison whatsoever. Biased reporting notwithstanding, the NYT is about to FEEL THE BERN, stating this Monday!
There is no comparison whatsoever between both Sanders and Trump, and their supporters. The reasons voters support each of these candidates could not be more distinct.
Trump is playing the classic demagogue, exploiting xenophobic and racist tendencies within a (significant) segment of the Republican base. Also, through his rhetoric and actions he has proven to be a vulgar man. I don't think I have to bring up again the names he's called women and opponents...
Bernie Sanders on the other hand is calling attention to a real issue that resonates with anybody who's paying attention: political corruption due to the influence of powerful business cartels, including Wall Street.
There is no demagoguery in Sander's speech or platform; he's not exploiting xenophobia, nativism, and racism. He's vision is about uniting ALL Americans as one, Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Hispanics, African-Americans, University graduates, high-school drop-outs--everybody.
No comparison whatsoever. Biased reporting notwithstanding, the NYT is about to FEEL THE BERN, stating this Monday!
3
It's surprising that there's still snow on the ground in Iowa with all that hot air being blown around.
Hillary Clinton - Blind
Donald Trump - One eyed man in the land of the blind
Bernie Sanders - 4 Eyes
Donald Trump - One eyed man in the land of the blind
Bernie Sanders - 4 Eyes
1
Trump supporters (including a depressing number of my neighbors here in North Central Kentucky) are not really afraid of terrorists coming over the border. They like to dramatize about it, because they can blame the "Muslim" president whose very election in 2008 meant that the world had changed in ways they weren't ready for. Not so much fear, or anger - just reality-TV-style drama.
Sanders supporters (including me) are people who read, follow news, could find Vietnam or Iraq on a map before the respective wars began, and are rationally afraid of the impact of climate change, genetically modified crops, fracking and the other risks posed by establishment politicians' ignorance and neglect of science. If we're angry at all, it's at voters who support the very people who exploit them, letting themselves be manipulated by dog whistles like "innocent babies" and "Sharia law."
Sanders supporters (including me) are people who read, follow news, could find Vietnam or Iraq on a map before the respective wars began, and are rationally afraid of the impact of climate change, genetically modified crops, fracking and the other risks posed by establishment politicians' ignorance and neglect of science. If we're angry at all, it's at voters who support the very people who exploit them, letting themselves be manipulated by dog whistles like "innocent babies" and "Sharia law."
1
The voice of Bernie Sanders has been crying in the wilderness for decades. Some of us have listened and thought, well someday....I always felt a thrill that someone in a high place had the courage to tell the truth, over and over again. If that makes me angry or somehow deficient according to the New York Times then call me a moron. I plan to vote for Bernie.
1
As a former Republican, I have been angry at the Republican party since the second term of Reagan. Republican equal opportunity is an oxymoron. Just about every action or position taken by the Republican party in word and deed for the past 30 years has diminished equal opportunity to be successful and is akin to pulling the ladder up behind them. Yes, we are successful (the top 10-20%) but we both started in the bottom 20%. Back then, it was possible to go from the bottom 20 to the top 20. The policies and actions of the Republican party of the past 30 years have greatly reduced the probability of going from the bottom 20 to the top 20 and the actual data shows this continuing downward trend.
5
Those who are angry at another Clinton or Bush are not going to transfer their support to another Clinton or Bush.
That is especially true of those who only turned out this time to express that anger.
Even to ask that question suggests a failure of understanding, just not getting the message.
That is especially true of those who only turned out this time to express that anger.
Even to ask that question suggests a failure of understanding, just not getting the message.
8
Main Street is recovering from the financial collapse far more slowly than Wall Street. Job creation has picked up, but labor force participation remains low and American wages have stagnated. Sadly, prosperity for business has not translated into prosperity for American workers.
Trickle-down has failed and business as usual is not working well. With the possible exception of John Kasich, I can't see any of the Republican candidates doing much to stimulate the economy. Hillary Clinton is too beholden to Wall Street and corporate contributors to drive significant change.
The remaining choice: Bernie Sanders. if elected, Sanders will at least try to do the right thing for ordinary Americans. I can't say that about most of his opponents.
Trickle-down has failed and business as usual is not working well. With the possible exception of John Kasich, I can't see any of the Republican candidates doing much to stimulate the economy. Hillary Clinton is too beholden to Wall Street and corporate contributors to drive significant change.
The remaining choice: Bernie Sanders. if elected, Sanders will at least try to do the right thing for ordinary Americans. I can't say that about most of his opponents.
15
So you believe the answer comes from D.C. and Mr Sanders via Socialism? Socialism means more government, not less. Who will enforce Mr Sanders equilibrium. Who will redistribute incomes? Who's money will be spend on even more social engineering? By supporting Sanders you are begging for even more Government which has always been the problem. Government allowed, encouraged and even forced banks to become financial risks. Then government bailed them out with our money. Now, you want even more government which by definition means more of the same. Government is the problem. It's not the answer. There is only one person running who understands what a problem big government is. That person dealt with them, bribed them, paid them off in order to build and grow. That person knows what a hindrance it is and why it needs to be smaller and more efficient. Trump is the only candidate who knows why we need government out of the way. Not in the way. Sanders wants control, reports and more overlapping beurocracy to be sure we are all equally miserable. Trump wants us to have Liberty, opportunity and success on our own. The divide is now in front of you. Go one way and you sell your soul to socialism, equality of results and the lowest common denominator. Go the other way and your work ethic, your motivation and expanded opportunity will insure your success. Sanders will get the hippies, the liberal youth and the lazy vote. Trump will get the rest of ours.
What cost us millions of jobs was the indecision in D.C. regarding the gigantic Obamacare law. The law and its regulations so far amount to a 12-foot high stack of paper printed out.
Not only is any big regulatory growth going to kill jobs, but the amateurs running this administration kept changing the rules every week or two because they were trying something that had never worked anywhere before.
Go ask a businesswoman or manager about employing people in that kind of environment.
Not only is any big regulatory growth going to kill jobs, but the amateurs running this administration kept changing the rules every week or two because they were trying something that had never worked anywhere before.
Go ask a businesswoman or manager about employing people in that kind of environment.
Re: Main Street is recovering from the financial collapse far more slowly than Wall Street.
When has this ever not happened ?
Even in 1933 the market rebounded well before the US recovered from the Depression.
When has this ever not happened ?
Even in 1933 the market rebounded well before the US recovered from the Depression.
Dear NYT
(1) 73% of the US Do Not have a BA or higher. (But the NYT writes as if such people were illiterate fools to be ignored...) I have a Doctorate.
(2) Tell me who to vote for:
* Immigration - send 'em back. No one should be allowed to break in & stay. Period. Clinton & Wasserman (DNV) both hired illegals for highly paid policy jobs (WaPo reported-NYT ignored)
* Healthcare - single payer. Medicare lets you pick any doctor or hospital & is accepted by 95% of docs. Much more cost efficient but the copays & deductibles are killers.
* Women's bodies - icky guys who don't get pregnant need to MTOB. Hands off my body.
* Trans, gays & other oddities - I aced college mammalian physiology.
Some guy can put on a dress but he is NOT a woman anymore than putting on a rabbit suit makes him Bugs Bunny. Both are nutty delusions I refuse to play along with.
2 guys or 2 women did NOT & can not breed a kid. What they do in their bedrooms is biologically aberrant for reproduction
* Trade pacts - sell out began with Clinton, continued through Bush & goes on with Obama. Pox on the Ds & Rs for that free trade garbage. It's killing the middle class.
Tariffs are good for a debtor nation (but not for a creditor nation) -worked for Britain in the 1930s.
* College - costs need to come down (Sanders) but the admissions criteria should be grades & ability not race or politically correct nonsense (Trump)
I NEVER wanna hear the names Bush or Clinton again.
Vote for whom?
(1) 73% of the US Do Not have a BA or higher. (But the NYT writes as if such people were illiterate fools to be ignored...) I have a Doctorate.
(2) Tell me who to vote for:
* Immigration - send 'em back. No one should be allowed to break in & stay. Period. Clinton & Wasserman (DNV) both hired illegals for highly paid policy jobs (WaPo reported-NYT ignored)
* Healthcare - single payer. Medicare lets you pick any doctor or hospital & is accepted by 95% of docs. Much more cost efficient but the copays & deductibles are killers.
* Women's bodies - icky guys who don't get pregnant need to MTOB. Hands off my body.
* Trans, gays & other oddities - I aced college mammalian physiology.
Some guy can put on a dress but he is NOT a woman anymore than putting on a rabbit suit makes him Bugs Bunny. Both are nutty delusions I refuse to play along with.
2 guys or 2 women did NOT & can not breed a kid. What they do in their bedrooms is biologically aberrant for reproduction
* Trade pacts - sell out began with Clinton, continued through Bush & goes on with Obama. Pox on the Ds & Rs for that free trade garbage. It's killing the middle class.
Tariffs are good for a debtor nation (but not for a creditor nation) -worked for Britain in the 1930s.
* College - costs need to come down (Sanders) but the admissions criteria should be grades & ability not race or politically correct nonsense (Trump)
I NEVER wanna hear the names Bush or Clinton again.
Vote for whom?
19
So because gays and lesbians can't reproduce, they're "oddities"? Are you unaware of the millions of straight people who can't reproduce? What do you call them?
You have a problem with gays marrying for love, yet see no problem in Trump jumping from wife to wife like they're going out of style?
And if you dislike gays so much, please don't use anything computer-based. Ever hear of Alan Turing?
You have a problem with gays marrying for love, yet see no problem in Trump jumping from wife to wife like they're going out of style?
And if you dislike gays so much, please don't use anything computer-based. Ever hear of Alan Turing?
2
@AnnS,
I agree with some, but not all, of what you said. You lost me with what sounds like anti-gay, etc., speech and a lack of understanding and empathy regarding affirmative action, doctorate or not. Still you've a right to express your opinions, which is what they are, rather than statements of fact. If I get a rancorous reply, which I've noticed a lot on this website, I don't care.
1-31-16@2:24 am et
I agree with some, but not all, of what you said. You lost me with what sounds like anti-gay, etc., speech and a lack of understanding and empathy regarding affirmative action, doctorate or not. Still you've a right to express your opinions, which is what they are, rather than statements of fact. If I get a rancorous reply, which I've noticed a lot on this website, I don't care.
1-31-16@2:24 am et
Trump.
Great post.
Great post.
There'll be less anger after the Primaries.
3
That depends on who wins and who is ultimately nominated.
5
Being a capitalist Donald Trump can never bring a change American citizen badly hopes for. Further his canvassing style is rather disgusting to say the least. Has he ever really cared for his staff ? If so how is that he has earned billions of dollars ? The balance sheet simply doesn't tally.
Bernie Sanders has been talking sense right from the beginning. The cancer i.e election funding must be accounted for, then only something good for the common man can be done else American citizens will be thrown to the wolves as is the case for quite sometime.
Bernie Sanders has been talking sense right from the beginning. The cancer i.e election funding must be accounted for, then only something good for the common man can be done else American citizens will be thrown to the wolves as is the case for quite sometime.
13
Bernie Sanders is the wolf. He's an old, useless hippie that has never run a business or met a payroll. He never led anything and you want him to lead the country.
2
Since when is Ted Cruz considered to be a "traditional contender"? He is so far off the scale to the right that he makes Ron Paul appear moderate.
I happen to agree with Mr. Holihan. If we don't manage to take back our democracy from the oligarchs legally through the electoral process and deep substantive changes in the political system, it is just a matter of time before there will be armed insurrection.
I happen to agree with Mr. Holihan. If we don't manage to take back our democracy from the oligarchs legally through the electoral process and deep substantive changes in the political system, it is just a matter of time before there will be armed insurrection.
11
Personally anytime anyone is a member of the very establishment, "elite men's club" also known as the US Senate, I consider them establishment; only their brand manager wants us to believe somehow they aren't part of the government they claim to detest. Sanders evidently hates democracy as much as the red team.
Amen. Old time republicans honestly wanted less regulation but all Cruz wants is to make sure his rich friends don't have to pay taxes.
tick...tick...tick...
Common sense wisdom from Iowa will tell you Rubio is marginally the Republican best choice and Clinton is by far the Democratic party's best choice. This is pretty much in line with the editorial board endorsements of the Des Moines Register. The choice for the Democrats is obvious, but there is this chronically naive wing of the party that always wants to fall on its dreamy sword and give the election to the Republicans.
1
Don't compare these two groups or pretend to know the motivations of all Sanders supporters. If we want to generalize:
Trump supporters are xenophobes who, feeling small, have attached themselves to a modern-day fascist promising restoration of greatness and white superiority.
Sanders supporters believe wealth inequality and campaign finance are the most pressing issues of our time. Sanders is the candidate with the strongest positions on these issues.
When I made my choice to support Sanders, it was because he chose to run without a super PAC, and he relentlessly focuses on issues rather than media sensationalism. I find that respectable. His views on everything except guns align with mine. His goals regarding education and health care are, I believe, what we should strive for; Clinton's are a compromise.
My choice had nothing to do with "anger" at establishment or Clinton. This article is patronizing to me and probably many other liberals.
Trump supporters are xenophobes who, feeling small, have attached themselves to a modern-day fascist promising restoration of greatness and white superiority.
Sanders supporters believe wealth inequality and campaign finance are the most pressing issues of our time. Sanders is the candidate with the strongest positions on these issues.
When I made my choice to support Sanders, it was because he chose to run without a super PAC, and he relentlessly focuses on issues rather than media sensationalism. I find that respectable. His views on everything except guns align with mine. His goals regarding education and health care are, I believe, what we should strive for; Clinton's are a compromise.
My choice had nothing to do with "anger" at establishment or Clinton. This article is patronizing to me and probably many other liberals.
14
Since when is Ted Cruz considered to be a "traditional contender"? He is so far off the scale to the right that he makes Ron Paul appear moderate.
I happen to agree with Mr. Holihan. If the people do not manage to take back democracy from the oligarchs legally through elections, there will be an uprising. It may not happen for a decade or two, but it will come.
I happen to agree with Mr. Holihan. If the people do not manage to take back democracy from the oligarchs legally through elections, there will be an uprising. It may not happen for a decade or two, but it will come.
2
Regarding "will they stay involved in the Fall?"
Most certainly, but not as one might expect. An important moment awaits us should Bernie lose the nomination to the corporate Dem candidate.
Will Bernie ask his supporters to back Hillary? I can't imagine he would do that, and if he did, he would lose all the street cred he has developed these last few months.
There is no turning back. It is Bernie or bust. No votes for Hillary for all the well stated reasons.
I will write in a vote rather than support Hillary. And if millions of us do that, we will be on the way to changing the system.
Which is much more important than merely winning one election.
Most certainly, but not as one might expect. An important moment awaits us should Bernie lose the nomination to the corporate Dem candidate.
Will Bernie ask his supporters to back Hillary? I can't imagine he would do that, and if he did, he would lose all the street cred he has developed these last few months.
There is no turning back. It is Bernie or bust. No votes for Hillary for all the well stated reasons.
I will write in a vote rather than support Hillary. And if millions of us do that, we will be on the way to changing the system.
Which is much more important than merely winning one election.
9
Bernie and Clinton are of the same party. She is a liar and a threat to national security. All of the republicans have said so. Has Bernie? No, he is still a member of the disgusting democrat party that is pushing her down all of your throats. Bernie doesn't stand a chance outside of the North East. If Clinton goes down do you think the dirty rotten leaders of your party are going to let a geriatric white hippie win the nod? You are delusional! Biden is in the bull pen. Just wait and see. So all of you Bernie supporters are truely about to feel the burn. That is when your party kicks Bernie under the bus for another establishment savior. And you will all fall into line like good little drones. Your experiment with anarchy is over so get in line and wave to the Biden bus.
So Hillary is a threat to national security because "all the Republicans say so."
So THAT is the new standard for truth these days -- what the GOP Says.
LOL
So THAT is the new standard for truth these days -- what the GOP Says.
LOL
If you want to understand why Sanders will have trouble winning, just read the comments of his supporters here. Rather than trying to understand the anger of the Trump supporters and trying to turn it into common ground and then a common cause, those Sanders supporters are contemptuous of them.
I have been involved in local politics for much of my life and have friends with similar backgrounds (some who had parents who were politicians). All of us are leaning toward Sanders despite thinking that he doesn't have what it takes to be a good President, because the other choices are worse. However that support is shifting away from Sanders because he is repeatedly demonstrating an inability to grow into someone who could win the general election.
The press coverage of this anger treats it as recent, but it was a crucial part of the 2008 Presidential election. Many Democrats voted for Obama in the primaries despite misgivings about his inexperience because it appeared able to grow into leadership. In the Republican primaries, that anger failed to find a suitable leaders. And it goes back even to the 2004 Howard Dean campaign.
The two parties have failed America, and two outsiders are trying to pull people out of the bubbles, so of course there are going to be major differences at this stage.
I have been involved in local politics for much of my life and have friends with similar backgrounds (some who had parents who were politicians). All of us are leaning toward Sanders despite thinking that he doesn't have what it takes to be a good President, because the other choices are worse. However that support is shifting away from Sanders because he is repeatedly demonstrating an inability to grow into someone who could win the general election.
The press coverage of this anger treats it as recent, but it was a crucial part of the 2008 Presidential election. Many Democrats voted for Obama in the primaries despite misgivings about his inexperience because it appeared able to grow into leadership. In the Republican primaries, that anger failed to find a suitable leaders. And it goes back even to the 2004 Howard Dean campaign.
The two parties have failed America, and two outsiders are trying to pull people out of the bubbles, so of course there are going to be major differences at this stage.
6
Doug, I believe Trump supporters are legitimately angry and share much common ground with those of Sanders.
But they need to learn to tell the difference between a trailblazer and a self-centered moron. It goes far beyond anger.
But they need to learn to tell the difference between a trailblazer and a self-centered moron. It goes far beyond anger.
Then vote for Trump on pure entertainment value.
The commonality is economic. Both Trump and Sanders are pointing out the inequities in the system where politicians become millionaires and the middle class is disappearing.
Sanders points to banks and big business while Trump points to illegal immigration, job outsourcing and corporate inversions. At their root these are the same things. It's about big business and big government winking at each other while exploiting consumers and taxpayers.
Ironically both are right and people know it because they see it and don't trust the other party-produced political robots.
Sanders points to banks and big business while Trump points to illegal immigration, job outsourcing and corporate inversions. At their root these are the same things. It's about big business and big government winking at each other while exploiting consumers and taxpayers.
Ironically both are right and people know it because they see it and don't trust the other party-produced political robots.
50
Excellent comment: the commonality is economic, fueled by the understandable fear-- and often the experience-- of falling behind.
5
Bernie fed at the public trough. Trump built his empire and made others rich in the private sector. Do you not see a difference?
Wouldn't it be nice if either a President Sanders or Trump did nothing else but get some term limits and eliminate the lobbyists.
The headline says, "Sanders and Trump Voters Share Anger -- They are angry at a political system they see as rigged." .. And that is GREAT! .. But you know what? Sander and Clinton have been part of that 'political system' for many years - Trump hasn't.... Therefore, I'm voting Trump.
1
Rage is now brilliantly prestigious. Rage, the reverse of bourgeois prudence, is a luxury. Rage is distinguished, it is a patrician passion. The rage of rappers and rioters takes as its premise the majority's admission of guilt for past and present injustices, and counts on the admiration of the repressed for the emotional power of the uninhibited and "justly" angry. Rage can also be manipulative; it can be an instrument of censorship and despotism.
Saul Bellow
Saul Bellow
2
The headline says, "Sanders and Trump Voters Share Anger -- They are angry at a political system they see as rigged." .. And that is GREAT! .. But you know what? Sander and Clinton have been part of that 'political system' for many years - Trump hasn't.... Therefore, I'm voting Trump.
Sanders and Trump offer a change from the bought and paid for establishment that have nothing to offer. It's like an NFL team hiring a 63 year old career coach, who never won coaching 4 different teams. Do you expect him to win at age 63? The NFL team would be better off hiring a young guy with no track record. He could be a disaster but he may well be the next Bill Belichek. If we are going to implode as a county anyway why not try something new?
2
This article strikes me as the writer's attempt to shoe horn facts into his predetermined thesis that Trump voters and Sanders voters are angry. If 30% of Bernie supporters are "angry" presumably 70% are not. What percentage of average Americans would describe themselves as "angy" at some aspect of the system? We don't know because Mr. Leland doesn't report that number.
There is a fundamental difference between Trump and Sanders that I don't see described in this article and that is that Sanders has a hopeful and specific vision for the future. One in which people are paid a living wage for work performed, have access to affordable health care, a secure retirement, and a degree of certainty that the economic system and government haven't been rigged by various corporate interests for their own profit.
To come together to find a better way forward, one that is built on American values of fairness and honesty, isn't about being angry. I'm not angry. But I believe we can have, and deserve, a government a whole lot better than what we've got.
There is a fundamental difference between Trump and Sanders that I don't see described in this article and that is that Sanders has a hopeful and specific vision for the future. One in which people are paid a living wage for work performed, have access to affordable health care, a secure retirement, and a degree of certainty that the economic system and government haven't been rigged by various corporate interests for their own profit.
To come together to find a better way forward, one that is built on American values of fairness and honesty, isn't about being angry. I'm not angry. But I believe we can have, and deserve, a government a whole lot better than what we've got.
7
What is your idea of a living wage? In New York City I bet you need far more than in Barstow California. Your income redistribution is a failure before it could ever begin. You will eventually run out of other people's money. But please try, I'd like to live in Hawaii and you can deliver my "living wage" onto the beach while I work on my tan.
Some, like myself are not angry-- we are concerned and disturbed by what seems to be the portrayal of anger and madness as legitimately reasonable perspectives from which to select a leader and lead the country. Many, are also disappointed in a change candidate elected president who has his hands tied up with irrational and dubious actions by the US congress for the last 8 years. Things have changed in the country in both positive and negative ways. The economy has been enormously profitable for 1-5% and the rest of us are hurting. Military costs continue to skyrocket and there is no "war" going on currently. If "violence" begets "violence," will "anger" beget "anger"?
Bernie Sanders can be angry and so can Trump and so can as many Americans as feel the need. Someone with sound judgement who can gain the trust of the people and of other leaders around the world is needed in office for the next term. The US does not need an angry leader. I believe Sanders anger would subside if he were not dismissed by the media and corporate America prior to any primary election: it stinks of discrimination and favoritism for the other candidate. His anger about the corporate greed would subside if the funds needed to support Americans were ot become available--and I agree, they should come from the rich and the closure of tax loopholes.
There is absolutely nothing from Trump to agree with that provides any advantage to the US or Americans. Trump is just promising BIG but cannot deliver.
Bernie Sanders can be angry and so can Trump and so can as many Americans as feel the need. Someone with sound judgement who can gain the trust of the people and of other leaders around the world is needed in office for the next term. The US does not need an angry leader. I believe Sanders anger would subside if he were not dismissed by the media and corporate America prior to any primary election: it stinks of discrimination and favoritism for the other candidate. His anger about the corporate greed would subside if the funds needed to support Americans were ot become available--and I agree, they should come from the rich and the closure of tax loopholes.
There is absolutely nothing from Trump to agree with that provides any advantage to the US or Americans. Trump is just promising BIG but cannot deliver.
5
Now I can add “angry” to the Sanders labels of “well intentioned but quixotic", "idealistic", "over blown", "nebulous" and “soft headed” “millennials” lost in a "fairy tale". If that’s not enough, we are told working for anything beyond "not Republican” threatens America. OK I admit it, this makes me angry. Sanders is not alone in his observation that allowing Wall Street to continue policing itself will result in another financial collapse. Americans seeking a return to regulations we already had on the books most of the 20th century are not radical. Tax rates on these robber barons at only half what they were under Eisenhower is not idealistic. Today’s financial firms comprise America’s most powerful lobby, and they are funding Hillary becasue they prefer policing themselves. The daily labels thrown at Sanders are motivated by the same forces that drove this papers reporting in the run up to the invasion of Iraq.
But readers do notice when they see articles simultaneously claiming Sanders supporters are just childish millennials run alongside articles arguing why more Boomers ought to be choosing Hillary. Readers can decide for themselves how “radical” it is to return to previous laws or to be the last developed nation to adopt single payer health care. At its core the NY Times Hillary argument does make a valid point: good governance is hard work. But this fact does not make good policy childish or idealistic.
But readers do notice when they see articles simultaneously claiming Sanders supporters are just childish millennials run alongside articles arguing why more Boomers ought to be choosing Hillary. Readers can decide for themselves how “radical” it is to return to previous laws or to be the last developed nation to adopt single payer health care. At its core the NY Times Hillary argument does make a valid point: good governance is hard work. But this fact does not make good policy childish or idealistic.
10
It's basically offensive to draw a parallel between Sanders supporters and Trump supporters. Sanders is a US senator and has had a long career in elected public office. He has legitimate ideas and is engaging young voters who feel very alienated from the democratic process. Hillary Clinton will need the votes of Sanders supporters in November. She should be very grateful for the Sanders movement and be thinking already of what Cabinet position she might offer him.
1
I don't think the mainstream press can really fathom American society. It took days before the conventional media caught on to what was happening in Ferguson, but anyone looking closely at social media could have seen it coming.
Millennials, 80% of whom back Sanders in Iowa, are a bigger generation than any other cohort -- but they don't watch mass media news, or even TV ... you have to work harder to find out what they are up to, and you have to track social media -- which by the way, would have told you that in 35 cities where Sanders hasn't even campaigned, the millennials were marching in the street for him last Saturday.
Polls and conjecture will not lead to understanding the changes underway; the future belongs to individuals keeping up with the world online rather than relying on the "screen" of an elite newspaper.
Millennials, 80% of whom back Sanders in Iowa, are a bigger generation than any other cohort -- but they don't watch mass media news, or even TV ... you have to work harder to find out what they are up to, and you have to track social media -- which by the way, would have told you that in 35 cities where Sanders hasn't even campaigned, the millennials were marching in the street for him last Saturday.
Polls and conjecture will not lead to understanding the changes underway; the future belongs to individuals keeping up with the world online rather than relying on the "screen" of an elite newspaper.
8
Both groups border on cults, unwilling to accept facts or opinions other than their own.
4
Joe, sorry, but that's not true. What I like about the Sanders campaign is its all-American ethos: roll up your sleeves, help the campaign, treat everyone-- including your opponents--with respect. Fight hard to win, but fight fair.
There is nothing cultist about Bernie 2016.
There is nothing cultist about Bernie 2016.
8
That pretty much is true for the supporters of any of the candidates, more so, it seems to me, for "Hillaristas" than "Berners".
If Bernie and his followers want a country like Greece , let them move there.
3
Sanders or Trump- It's the middle class who will be squeezed to pay for one of the following poison pills: Over bloated social welfare experiments for the poor or subsidized [bigger] tax cuts for the rich. Considering Sanders is clearly the "career politician," I'll take my chances with Trump and hope for the best.
3
Trump loves this nation and is tired of seeing it's spiraling decadence. He wants to return it to a time when the United States was respected throughout the world and a time when her elected leaders wouldn’t tolerate disrespect for the nation and her laws...
Trump/Cruz 2016...because demanding respect for our nation should come natural to any elected ‘leader’…For these two, it does…The others? They’re all about power at any cost…It's time to make America great again...our kids and grand kids deserve their American Dream first...Trump does four years and Cruz does eight…it’s going to take a long time to fix this nation…
Trump/Cruz 2016...because demanding respect for our nation should come natural to any elected ‘leader’…For these two, it does…The others? They’re all about power at any cost…It's time to make America great again...our kids and grand kids deserve their American Dream first...Trump does four years and Cruz does eight…it’s going to take a long time to fix this nation…
We as Americans should be angry. 75--80% of real Americans have similar values, are somewhat religious, are familiar with the American dream, are generous and hard working. we have just endured 8 years of an administration who's focus on minorities Yes there are two different views. The Liberals and the conservatives but they have a lot in common as they are both angry because of the government that has little concern for their welfare. Both Sanders and trump are focusing on the economy, which is the problem, but in two different ways. Trump wants to stop illegal immigration, change trade deals, change corporate taxes to bring money back into the economy. Sanders feels he can tax the rich and "Give" people more freebies. I like Bernie and I think he really believes in his plan. But it does not make sense to me. If you double taxes do you really think you'll get twice as much tax money? Do you really think that the economic activity will stay at the same level if you start taking more of the "Rich Peoples" money? A quick look at history will show you that you will collect far less and you will slow economic activity. Rich people can sit on their money or leave. What are you going to do Then Bernie, mug them and take their money? JFK and Reagan both increased economic activity and collected far more revenue by lowering corporate tax rates. It's history. Trump is a business man, that's what I think we need,
1
Actually you are WRONG.
The higher the tax rates, the more the economy grew --- see 1945 through 1970 when the top marginal rate for incomes over $10,000,000 in todays dollars was 70-95%.
Only good 100% tax deduction for the megabucks crowd was to pour their excess money into creating new businesses and industry --- rather than sticking it in a Cayman's account as they do now.
The higher the tax rates, the more the economy grew --- see 1945 through 1970 when the top marginal rate for incomes over $10,000,000 in todays dollars was 70-95%.
Only good 100% tax deduction for the megabucks crowd was to pour their excess money into creating new businesses and industry --- rather than sticking it in a Cayman's account as they do now.
1
I'm a loyal reader of the NYT, but I'm starting to get fed up with the Times's refusal to accept Senator Sanders's campaign as something other than a sideshow of interest only to the angry and the starry-eyed.
Senator Sanders has articulated BY FAR the best set of policy proposals for dealing with the serious problems we face. Please quit insulting those of us more interested in those proposals than in HRC's personality cult.
Senator Sanders has articulated BY FAR the best set of policy proposals for dealing with the serious problems we face. Please quit insulting those of us more interested in those proposals than in HRC's personality cult.
9
I subscribe to that! Hillary is not an electable candidate for me. I rather voter for Louis XIV than for her.
1
Neither have a chance of effecting real change.
Mr. Trump will just feed off extreme right wing rhetoric and try to cow his opponents into giving in but he will wilt away in the face of disappointment of his followers because what he has promised is basically a reversal of the global trends of globalization, climate change, Asia's rising, ethnic and religious diversity, and a reduced role for America in the global governing structure because of economic difficulties at home.
Mr. Sanders will simply face a wall of political opposition from those on the right and will lead the country towards more divisiveness and polarization. The oligarchists will not give up easily.
Mr. Trump will just feed off extreme right wing rhetoric and try to cow his opponents into giving in but he will wilt away in the face of disappointment of his followers because what he has promised is basically a reversal of the global trends of globalization, climate change, Asia's rising, ethnic and religious diversity, and a reduced role for America in the global governing structure because of economic difficulties at home.
Mr. Sanders will simply face a wall of political opposition from those on the right and will lead the country towards more divisiveness and polarization. The oligarchists will not give up easily.
I and many hundreds of thousands of other Americans refuse to elect Goldman Sachs or it's unofficial employees. I'd like to see Goldman Sachs lose a LOT of money this election and over the next 8 years. Hillary does not have a chance.
7
For me, it's real simple: Bernie Sanders represents our best opportunity for substantive and authentic change, while. Hillary Clinton is a continuation of the status quo. Ms. Clinton is an establishment candidate who will help ensure the rich get richer. Bernie will make a genuine effort to address income inequality, Hillary will pat us on the head and assure us she's addressing the matter.
I'm going to be audacious and vote my heart, not my fear, and that means Bernie Sanders gets my vote!
I'm going to be audacious and vote my heart, not my fear, and that means Bernie Sanders gets my vote!
9
Move over...I'm going on that ride with you!
1
People are disillusioned because there has been no recovery since 2009 ... the GFC just grinds remorselessly onwards.
US foreign policy has failed in the Middle East / North Africa and has spawned the worst terrorist threat to the West in history .... as well as causing a crisis in Europe. The far East has also become more unstable.
It is hardly surprising therefore that Americans want a new direction ... they are not interested in "more of the same".
The Bush/Clinton dynasties are in fact over .... the DNC is just beginning to understand this new dynamic. Having put all their eggs in the Clinton basket the DNC must be frantically developing contingency plans.
How can you have your main candidate at risk of being frog-marched off by the FBI?
It's no wonder that many Democrats are looking to an alternative choice.
Republicans also want a new style of leader who isn't beholden to the powers "behind the throne".
US foreign policy has failed in the Middle East / North Africa and has spawned the worst terrorist threat to the West in history .... as well as causing a crisis in Europe. The far East has also become more unstable.
It is hardly surprising therefore that Americans want a new direction ... they are not interested in "more of the same".
The Bush/Clinton dynasties are in fact over .... the DNC is just beginning to understand this new dynamic. Having put all their eggs in the Clinton basket the DNC must be frantically developing contingency plans.
How can you have your main candidate at risk of being frog-marched off by the FBI?
It's no wonder that many Democrats are looking to an alternative choice.
Republicans also want a new style of leader who isn't beholden to the powers "behind the throne".
3
I don't know any of the anxiety ridden, angry voters who are backing Bernie Sanders, but I do have reason to back him myself. He has reasoned position that will help the middle class and reduce the power that Wall Street holds over our political leadership. He is committed to universal healthcare; insistent on the opportunity for a college education for all of our students. He wants to close the income gap and provide for a decent minimum wage for every worker. I think Bernie's positions are excellent. I support him, not out of fear, but out of hope. Trump supporters made be filled with fear and hate, but I don't think Bernie's are.
5
there is no parallel between endorsing a foul mouthed populist and trying to build a functioning social-democracy, the political system that requires the most extensive collective intelligence
1
I give those individuals who are fed up with politics as usual a lot of credit for standing up and willing to be counted.
It's high time that the American People put a stop to the "Politics as usual" attitude which is so highly prevalent in this country.
Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are about to take the establishment politicians on a trip to the woodshed they will never forget.
Already both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are already beginning to change the political landscape.
Right now, even as we speak, Barack Obama is finally addressing the issue of equal pay for women after seven years of his terms in office.
It's high time that the American People put a stop to the "Politics as usual" attitude which is so highly prevalent in this country.
Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are about to take the establishment politicians on a trip to the woodshed they will never forget.
Already both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are already beginning to change the political landscape.
Right now, even as we speak, Barack Obama is finally addressing the issue of equal pay for women after seven years of his terms in office.
30
This is wonderful rhetoric but will it really happen among a populace who reads little and prefers movies about comic book heros?
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Obama is "finally addressing the issue of equal pay for women." The Lilly Ledbetter case was all about equal pay and was one of the first things he signed off on when he came into office.
1
Equal pay for women? Oh. Please. Stop.
If women actually got paid less for equal work, every employer would simply hire 100% women.
If women actually got paid less for equal work, every employer would simply hire 100% women.
What Sanders' and Trump's supporters largely have in common is a disdain for politicians they view as possessing no credibility. By and large, the other candidates are looked at as self-serving opportunists, unprincipled prevaricators who merely spout the latest focus group tested, ad agency massaged slogans, slogans which will change with the next set of poll data or rich donor's contribution.
Trump and Sanders have credibility with many precisely because they clearly do not fit that all-too-true stereotype. What they say would never pass the traditional tests. Essentially, we have an electorate this time which is more concerned with credibility than substance, real or feigned.
Trump and Sanders have credibility with many precisely because they clearly do not fit that all-too-true stereotype. What they say would never pass the traditional tests. Essentially, we have an electorate this time which is more concerned with credibility than substance, real or feigned.
6
Is ANYONE seriously examining Trump's "fundraising for vets"? Seems to me his first fundraiser raised a bunch of money, but few, if any vets got any money.
If I'm right, this kind of chicanery should be shouted from the highest rooftops.
If I'm right, this kind of chicanery should be shouted from the highest rooftops.
2
Ruth is a special kind of stupid. The monies raised went to vetting groups, listed on his website.
Have you followed the Hillary money trail ?
Have you followed the Hillary money trail ?
Seriously Ruth, you think he's going to state the amount raised on national TV and not give it to vets - the media would pound him mercilessly if he didn't - his campaign released the names of 22 vet organizations that will receive the money and I'm sure you'll hear if even one doesn't get any.
1
You don't think the democrats are looking into EVERYTHING about Trump, past, present, and future? The reason you don't see anything crazy (other than what the media straight up makes up) is because Trump doesn't have any skeletons in the closet. If he says the money went to the vets, it's because it did. He doesn't need that 6 million or so dollars that were raised.
It's interesting that top concerns expressed by Trump and Sanders supporters are the result of an Obama presidency.
The solutions proposed by both candidates are radically different.
The solutions proposed by both candidates are radically different.
My vote for Sanders has nothing to do with anger. The current system doesn't work so let's try something different. And I do love that Sanders is not beholden to anyone but us, the voters.
7
Trump will cool his tone once the campaign is over? That sounds ominous.
Basically he has been pandering to whatever group he has been speaking to.
Basically he has been pandering to whatever group he has been speaking to.
2
Iowa is big. About 20 percent of eligible caucus - not cactus - participants actually participate in this riveting event. And they they stand in different parts of peoples' homes depending on whom they support. This is all very sophisticated as is Iowa. I just wish I knew where it was.
Both are very angry, irrational old men raging against the machine. Seems to me a sign of rampant immaturity, much lower than their advanced years. When does getting angry and screeching solve anything? It doesn't, it is demagoguing. Both are supported mainly by disenfranchised white males who seems to blame women and minorities for all of their woes as if we haven't been the victims of their domination of our executive office. Time for a change. Time for a mature female that gets slimed more than anyone, even Obama, and keeps showing up in their faces. So they rage and scream because they don't want to share opportunities with women and minorities..........well now you are the minority, white dudes, deal with it without making such ridiculous fools of yourself. I think Sanders sounds twice as angry as Trump, after riding the bench in our elitist Congress for 26 years. Some revolutionary. I am glad glad George Washington and Abe Lincoln didn't just stand and screech. Where are Bern's health records? Will those come out two hours before the caucus like his back of the napkin health plan appeared two hours before the last debate? Nobody Panders Like Sanders.
3
Across the political spectrum, across every demographic and every voting group, the fundamental driving factor is fear. Fear of ISIL, fear of losing benefits, fear that Trump is taking over, fear that liberal college professors are taking over, fear that political correctness is becoming law, fear that we can't find a job, fear that our guns are going to be taken, fear that Wall Street is gonna get away with it.
Countries go crazy all the time. We can't pretend that the USA is immune. The last time this happened, there was a severe worldwide economic depression and FDR got elected by a landslide. He promised everyone a "New Deal" without being clear about what exactly the New Deal was.
Facts are cobwebs in the face of human emotions, and they will be brushed aside; it doesn't matter that the deepest recession since then is over; nor does it matter that we have 5% unemployment. It's how the USA feels that matters.
Across every political class and consciousness in the country, fear is going to win this election by a landslide. I wish this weren't so, but it is.
Countries go crazy all the time. We can't pretend that the USA is immune. The last time this happened, there was a severe worldwide economic depression and FDR got elected by a landslide. He promised everyone a "New Deal" without being clear about what exactly the New Deal was.
Facts are cobwebs in the face of human emotions, and they will be brushed aside; it doesn't matter that the deepest recession since then is over; nor does it matter that we have 5% unemployment. It's how the USA feels that matters.
Across every political class and consciousness in the country, fear is going to win this election by a landslide. I wish this weren't so, but it is.
5
The emerging "poster art" of Bernie Sanders contains colorful silhouettes of many people inside of Sander's silhouette; there is a yearning for connection and actively cooperating to make up a new political paradigm (which is true of Sanders but wasn't so true of Obama). The appeal of the "America" commercial is one of connection with something larger than oneself.
Trump's followers want to insulate themselves from others, anyone who doesn't look like them or is different. They seek someone who will attack what they fear, rather than someone who asks them to come together in community.
Both may be populist, but one camp makes continued conflict more likely, while the other may jointly insist on a new political paradigm, if there are sufficient numbers of committed people.
Trump's followers want to insulate themselves from others, anyone who doesn't look like them or is different. They seek someone who will attack what they fear, rather than someone who asks them to come together in community.
Both may be populist, but one camp makes continued conflict more likely, while the other may jointly insist on a new political paradigm, if there are sufficient numbers of committed people.
2
"Mr. Sanders’s supporters worried about the growing inequality in wealth and income"
"Growing inequality"? I'd say inequality has already grown, moved out, and bought it's own private island. According to an article published by Oxfam last year, 1% of the world's population now owns more than HALF of the world's wealth. The Guardian reported in 2014 that .01% of the population of the United States is worth as much as the bottom 90%.
The Supreme Court ruling in the Citizens United vs FEC case makes it legal for an unlimited amount of money to be "contributed" to political candidates, thus codifying into law a system of legalized bribery where the will of the majority of Americans is completely subverted. On top of all that, the non-profit Tax Justice Network released a report in 2012 called "The Price of Offshore" which documents how more that $20 trillion USD has been taken out of the tax system PERMANENTLY. And that number is growing each year.
Only a candidate who is not owned by private money AND who sees the necessity of taking immediate action to end this corruption has a chance of reversing the downward spiral we are on. Sanders is unique in that he does not take corporate money and believes that this quid pro quo of lobbying and cartel style politics must end in order to return to something resembling a representative system of government. The money has to be taken out of the equation. Our political system must no longer be used as a business for the rich.
"Growing inequality"? I'd say inequality has already grown, moved out, and bought it's own private island. According to an article published by Oxfam last year, 1% of the world's population now owns more than HALF of the world's wealth. The Guardian reported in 2014 that .01% of the population of the United States is worth as much as the bottom 90%.
The Supreme Court ruling in the Citizens United vs FEC case makes it legal for an unlimited amount of money to be "contributed" to political candidates, thus codifying into law a system of legalized bribery where the will of the majority of Americans is completely subverted. On top of all that, the non-profit Tax Justice Network released a report in 2012 called "The Price of Offshore" which documents how more that $20 trillion USD has been taken out of the tax system PERMANENTLY. And that number is growing each year.
Only a candidate who is not owned by private money AND who sees the necessity of taking immediate action to end this corruption has a chance of reversing the downward spiral we are on. Sanders is unique in that he does not take corporate money and believes that this quid pro quo of lobbying and cartel style politics must end in order to return to something resembling a representative system of government. The money has to be taken out of the equation. Our political system must no longer be used as a business for the rich.
17
It's the difference between democracy and capitalism versus socialism and communism.
The United States became the greatest nation on earth due to limited government, democracy and capitalism. The problems we are experiencing are a result of moving towards a big socialist government. We can see the failure of socialism in Europe.
Trump versus Sanders - Clinton represent this dichotomy.
The United States became the greatest nation on earth due to limited government, democracy and capitalism. The problems we are experiencing are a result of moving towards a big socialist government. We can see the failure of socialism in Europe.
Trump versus Sanders - Clinton represent this dichotomy.
6
Perhaps you were on another planet at the time, but, in 2008 it was unfettered capitalism that brought the U.S. and a good part of the world to a point of the worst recession since the great depression of the 1930s. Socialism in Europe as you pout it is anything but a failure and their quality of life is considerably better than yours. It is clear you have never traveled outside of your own backyard so I would suggest you get yourself a passport and get out and see the world, because you are in for a very rude awakening.
Your so-called capitalism success in America has created the worst inequality and child poverty rate in the industrialized world.
Your so-called capitalism success in America has created the worst inequality and child poverty rate in the industrialized world.
Thank you! Any American who doesn't agree with this statement, doesn't agree with what this country originally set out to achieve and did achieve.
1
The only thread that connects Bernie and Trump is people's anger, disgust and frustration. Otherwise they are polar opposites. Trump is for Trump, Bernie is for the people. Period.
8
What Bernie is all about has nothing to do with anger. He is motivated by a love of his "fellow" human beings, a thirst for justice and a desire to fix what is wrong in the world. He has been unwavering in working for the common good during his over 30 years of public service, not to mention the many years of social justice activity during his youth.
This is, by the way, the essence of the Jewish concept of "Tikkun Olam", which means literally "repair of the world".
Working for social justice and a better world is up there among the highest of human motivations. That the "powers that be" are fighting Senator Sanders' campaign tooth and nail only indicates how low we have been pulled as a nation. Bottom line, indeed.
Sanders supporters support his candidacy with enthusiasm, optimism, and hope.
The anger is in the other camps.
This is, by the way, the essence of the Jewish concept of "Tikkun Olam", which means literally "repair of the world".
Working for social justice and a better world is up there among the highest of human motivations. That the "powers that be" are fighting Senator Sanders' campaign tooth and nail only indicates how low we have been pulled as a nation. Bottom line, indeed.
Sanders supporters support his candidacy with enthusiasm, optimism, and hope.
The anger is in the other camps.
13
This is a guy who never worked a 9-5 job but believes that people who do go to work, should share their income and savings wealth with those that don't. Easy for him to tell us what to do. I agree that students should not have to pay the interest they are paying. But, he is a socialist and should go live in a socialist country.
1
Full disclosure: I have been a registered Independent since January 2001 when I shed for good my alliance to the Democratic party in the face of what I viewed and suspected was the beginning of the end of Integrity and honesty in the American election system. (Bush v. Gore). I also voted twice for Barrack Obama, encouraged by the 'hope and change', the 'hard work' he insisted would be paramount in his administration. Instead? He gave away the farm. Literally and figuratively.
For the first time, in many, many years, sadly, I will not be voting if Clinton ends up as the Democratic nominee. She is just too polarizing. I am getting too old for 'settling' again. Mr. Sanders is the only candidate who will get my vote. A good, tough, honest and deeply experienced negotiator. Congress will listen to him. I wish him well.
For the first time, in many, many years, sadly, I will not be voting if Clinton ends up as the Democratic nominee. She is just too polarizing. I am getting too old for 'settling' again. Mr. Sanders is the only candidate who will get my vote. A good, tough, honest and deeply experienced negotiator. Congress will listen to him. I wish him well.
43
"She is just too polarizing."
Pardon me--but didn't Hillary Clinton throw her FULL support behind Obama on June 7, 2008, when it was finally clear that Obama was the Democratic nominee? And didn't Bill and Hillary campaign for Obama that year? And didn't Bill give that rousing keynote speech in praise of Obama at the Democratic National Convention in August 2012?
Unlike yourself, Hillary did NOT just go off and sulk in her tent and refuse to get behind the Democratic presidential nominee. She and Bill fought for Obama right up until election day. That may have been part of the reason why Obama chose Hillary as his Secretary of State.
You might want to think whether or not you are the one who is "polarizing": "If I don't get MY way (Bernie), I won't vote ANYWAY!"
Full disclosure: I am a 68-year-old lifetime progressive Democrat in the Tar Heel State who's voted for the Democratic presidential nominee every year since 1968 (Hubert Humphrey, Sam McGovern, Jimmy Carter (twice!), Walter Mondale, Bill Clinton (twice), Al Gore, John Kerry, Barack Obama (twice!).
Right now, I plan to vote for Hillary in the NC Democratic primary on March 15, but if Bernie wins the nomination, I will vote for him. And I am sure that Hillary and Bill will do all they can to get Bernie elected.
So Hillary "polarizing"? Hardly!
Pardon me--but didn't Hillary Clinton throw her FULL support behind Obama on June 7, 2008, when it was finally clear that Obama was the Democratic nominee? And didn't Bill and Hillary campaign for Obama that year? And didn't Bill give that rousing keynote speech in praise of Obama at the Democratic National Convention in August 2012?
Unlike yourself, Hillary did NOT just go off and sulk in her tent and refuse to get behind the Democratic presidential nominee. She and Bill fought for Obama right up until election day. That may have been part of the reason why Obama chose Hillary as his Secretary of State.
You might want to think whether or not you are the one who is "polarizing": "If I don't get MY way (Bernie), I won't vote ANYWAY!"
Full disclosure: I am a 68-year-old lifetime progressive Democrat in the Tar Heel State who's voted for the Democratic presidential nominee every year since 1968 (Hubert Humphrey, Sam McGovern, Jimmy Carter (twice!), Walter Mondale, Bill Clinton (twice), Al Gore, John Kerry, Barack Obama (twice!).
Right now, I plan to vote for Hillary in the NC Democratic primary on March 15, but if Bernie wins the nomination, I will vote for him. And I am sure that Hillary and Bill will do all they can to get Bernie elected.
So Hillary "polarizing"? Hardly!
1
"Supporter are drawn to what they see as their [Trump and Cruz] independence, and a lack of pandering." What...lack of pandering? Pandering is exactly what Trump and Cruz do as in, " Two Corinthians" or "....carpet bomb them into oblivion."
All politicians pander, except some of them interject meaningful statements among the drivel.
All politicians pander, except some of them interject meaningful statements among the drivel.
5
Nobody Panders Like Sanders. Free college, revamped tax code with 75% brackets, tiny compliant banks, billionaires in public housing, and Medicare for all, (which is somewhat problematic for younger women and kids because Medicare doesn't pay for routine maternity care, and childhood immunizations; it was designed for people over age 62, remember kids?) I think Trump stands a better chance of getting Mexico to pay for his wall (self-protection) than Bern does on delivering his self-described "revolutionary" platform, especially before Bern kicks the bucket..
There is no comparison, there are no parallels, there is nothing the at all alike between Trump's supporters and Bernie Sanders's. The media are fairly desperate to have it be so, but we know better. Trump supporters' anger seems to be all about their resenting not being able to say and do unkind things to members of racial and sexual minorities. Trump says it for them, and it makes them ecstatic.
Bernie Sanders supporters are angry for a hundred valid reason, none of which is the social unacceptability of overt racism and misogyny. We admire Bernie's noble cause. Trump supporters admire his ignoble methods in support of his one and only cause: self-aggrandizement.
Bernie Sanders supporters are angry for a hundred valid reason, none of which is the social unacceptability of overt racism and misogyny. We admire Bernie's noble cause. Trump supporters admire his ignoble methods in support of his one and only cause: self-aggrandizement.
154
Typical, and typically wrong, assessment of Trump. He offers 3 things for which there is a huge market among his supporters:
1. very tough border control
2. extreme national security
3. jobs, great trade deals and more jobs based on his proven business skills.
Those happen to be the top 3 issues for Republican voters. Dismiss him if you wish, but those issues will remain.
1. very tough border control
2. extreme national security
3. jobs, great trade deals and more jobs based on his proven business skills.
Those happen to be the top 3 issues for Republican voters. Dismiss him if you wish, but those issues will remain.
As a Trump supporter, I can only say that if that's why you think we support him, perhaps you should do some more research.
The reason he is resonating so much with the Republican base has much more to do with the GOP leadership in Congress than hatred for any minority or special interest group. It's a good thing McConnell isn't up for re-election this year because chances are, he'd be thrown out of office ala Cantor.
The reason he is resonating so much with the Republican base has much more to do with the GOP leadership in Congress than hatred for any minority or special interest group. It's a good thing McConnell isn't up for re-election this year because chances are, he'd be thrown out of office ala Cantor.
You are way off the mark as far a Trump supporters go.
Stick with grandpa. Perhaps he and granny will be your ticket :) Old age matters!!!
Stick with grandpa. Perhaps he and granny will be your ticket :) Old age matters!!!
There is nothing unusual about anger in American politics - what was the Spirit of '76, if not anger?
But the premise that both Trump and Sanders are paddling the same canoe is shaky at best. Sanders is an authentic and sincere individual with a long history of standing up to the establishment. Trump, on the other hand, is best known for putting both materialism and greed on a pedestal.
Sanders, the socialist, has long been the advocate of the unfortunate, and the forgotten. In contrast, Trump has been the advocate of his own fortune, and making sure that HE is not forgotten.
At the very best, the only analogy that makes any sense, is that both Trump and Sanders are paddling in a river of anger, but Sanders wants to take us upstream, and Trump can't paddle downstream fast enough, which explains his great success among the socially backward individuals who vote the Elephant.
But the premise that both Trump and Sanders are paddling the same canoe is shaky at best. Sanders is an authentic and sincere individual with a long history of standing up to the establishment. Trump, on the other hand, is best known for putting both materialism and greed on a pedestal.
Sanders, the socialist, has long been the advocate of the unfortunate, and the forgotten. In contrast, Trump has been the advocate of his own fortune, and making sure that HE is not forgotten.
At the very best, the only analogy that makes any sense, is that both Trump and Sanders are paddling in a river of anger, but Sanders wants to take us upstream, and Trump can't paddle downstream fast enough, which explains his great success among the socially backward individuals who vote the Elephant.
16
Yes, both groups of voters are angry.
One group is angry at reality- that immense wealth is all flowing to the top while wages for the majority have stagnated or dropped; that people suffer for lack of affordable health care and education.
The other group is angry at fantasy- that Mexicans and Muslims are swarming into the country and destroying us (Mexican immigration is a net minus and studies indicate that immigration is a net plus to the economy, albeit a small one; jiihadist murders since 2001 are equal to the American gun death toll, inflicted on Americans by Americans, every 2 days.)
One group wants to relieve suffering; the other wants to impose it on
``them.``
One group sees a decent, sincere man who wants to make this country a better place for its people; the other wants to hitch a ride on a narcissistic middle school bully to shore up their own shaky status.
In conclusion, if you wish to live in unreality, inflict pain, and make yourself feel better by looking down on others, go Trump!
If you wish to live in reality, as a compassionate person, and deal with your own life without scapegoats, go Bernie.
The choice is not only who should be President, but who you would be.
One group is angry at reality- that immense wealth is all flowing to the top while wages for the majority have stagnated or dropped; that people suffer for lack of affordable health care and education.
The other group is angry at fantasy- that Mexicans and Muslims are swarming into the country and destroying us (Mexican immigration is a net minus and studies indicate that immigration is a net plus to the economy, albeit a small one; jiihadist murders since 2001 are equal to the American gun death toll, inflicted on Americans by Americans, every 2 days.)
One group wants to relieve suffering; the other wants to impose it on
``them.``
One group sees a decent, sincere man who wants to make this country a better place for its people; the other wants to hitch a ride on a narcissistic middle school bully to shore up their own shaky status.
In conclusion, if you wish to live in unreality, inflict pain, and make yourself feel better by looking down on others, go Trump!
If you wish to live in reality, as a compassionate person, and deal with your own life without scapegoats, go Bernie.
The choice is not only who should be President, but who you would be.
24
pfwolf01, you capture so well the divide of aspirations that separate these two fundamentally different men and the movements they lead. Pray God, Bernie prevails!!
1
I am very hopeful that these two candidates, Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, win their party nominations because I would love to see the two of them in a debate.
9
It would be a waste of time!
Bernie Sanders is truly beholden to no one but the American people, he has proved time and again he is for the working people unlike the other " more of the same politicians " whose policies have destroyed the middle class. I don't want unbridled immigration that has driven down American wages, it's out of control and is directly related to our income inequality. No more American job killing trade agreements which TPP is the mother of all trade agreements. If the American people say investigate and put a cap on H1-B visas, Bernie will. He is more trustworthy to do it if the American people say enough. We are ! Politicians are lying about skilled Americans and being qualified for IT jobs, as well as, telling American kids to go into computer science while simultaneously allowing H1-B visas from India and China to replace the skilled Americans IT workers. Yeah, American workers are da!!!! mad about the abuse and treasonous actions by our " so-called representatives in Washington DC. I get the Trump followers anger, I do ! Our politicians are more worried about the immigrants than our own displaced and jobless citizens. I am mad that not one person went to jail and was held accountable for the corrupt, bank meltdown that caused our country's 2007 recession. Millions of working Americans lost their livelihoods and homes because of it while the bankers on Wall Street received bonuses and a taxpayer bailout. Go get'm Bernie, the only one who will !
32
Bernie is beholden to much worse - failed ideology.
2
Both Bernie and Donald are great at sound bites but completely deficit on specifics. Take Bernie's "medicare for all." What about those who work for the government in liberal enclaves such as Long Island, NY? Will these pampered employees be forced to surrender their far superior Cadillac plans and downgrade to medicare? Without all in the country on board medicare for all doesn't compute.
Details, details - who cares? Neither Trump's or Sanders' rooters are interested in details. Details give these voters a headache. And anyway everyone knows that a when a politician promises a specific they do so with hidden crossed fingers. See - that means they weren't lying - just kidding a little.
Details, details - who cares? Neither Trump's or Sanders' rooters are interested in details. Details give these voters a headache. And anyway everyone knows that a when a politician promises a specific they do so with hidden crossed fingers. See - that means they weren't lying - just kidding a little.
3
Medicare is superior to any Cadillac plan. You are either uninformed or a duplicitous HMO stooge.
1
Check out https://berniesanders.com/issues/
He actually goes into good detail about everything.
Unlike Hillary or Trump's site. Hillary's site makes it look like Alzheimer's research should be our nation's priority. Trump's site looks like it was designed by a child. When you click on one of the few boxes there's a lot of detail about completely random stuff. Rather silly IMO.
He actually goes into good detail about everything.
Unlike Hillary or Trump's site. Hillary's site makes it look like Alzheimer's research should be our nation's priority. Trump's site looks like it was designed by a child. When you click on one of the few boxes there's a lot of detail about completely random stuff. Rather silly IMO.
As a public employee with excellent health insurance for which I pay very little, I would happily give it up to have some sort of universal healthcare in the US. And being from a two income household, I would also likely pay much more in taxes to get it. I truly believe we all need to be in it together when it comes to healthcare. Every other industrialized nation in the world has shown us that it works better at saving money and improving health outcomes than our crazy patchwork system in the US.
I truly believe you have to be some kind of sociopath to feel that people who can't pay for adequate health insurance should die. Bernie is a human being. That's all there is to it. As I've gotten older, I've distanced myself from a lot of people. Members of my own family are sociopaths. Probably yours, too. Getting out of denial is a great thing. It saves lives. Your own, included.
23
One thing you don't have to tell any woman who supports Hillary online is that both Trump and Sanders supporters are very angry. We get the brunt of it from both of em. I can't tell much of a difference between them these days, except that so far no Trump supporter has called me the c word, and a Bernie supporter did on Buzzfeed.
I just hope my fellow Hillary supporters remain calm and vote.
I just hope my fellow Hillary supporters remain calm and vote.
11
That seems, crazy?
We have been screamed at by old white males demanding power for decades. Just like Hillary endured her BENGHAZI!!!! Boys, we have to woman up for Hillary against Bernie Bros. That loud rude interloper isn't stealing this party out from under women and people of color when he was always to pure to join it. I have been called everything in the book by Bernie's Bros and it doesn't phase me in the least, as most of the white boys in college wouldn't bother leaving their dorms to actually do something. Bernie's Bros are the ones statistically speaking who didn't vote in the midterms, but now are gnashing their teeth and coming for the women folk with their gun laws meant to intimidate. We shall see old angry white dudes, who actually votes.
What Sanders' and Trump's supporters have largely in common is a disdain for politicians they view as having no credibility. By and large, the other candidates are looked at as self-serving opportunists, unprincipled prevaricators who merely spout the latest focus group tested, ad agency massaged slogan, slogans which will change with the next set of poll data or rich donor's contribution. Trump and Sanders have credibility with many precisely because they clearly do not fit that all-too-true stereotype. What they say would never pass the traditional tests.
10
Sanders is running to make some well-taken points about income inequality, corporate non-accountability, and repairing some basic functions of government.
Trump is running to massage his ego.
What they have in common is that neither is really in it to win.
Other than that they are basically polar opposites.
Trump is running to massage his ego.
What they have in common is that neither is really in it to win.
Other than that they are basically polar opposites.
2
Bernie is in it to win!
While Trump and Sanders supporters may be angry, at least they are awake.
Trump is opportunistic and his supporters are less educated, but they know something is wrong with the system. Sanders' supporters are better educated and also see the system failing.
The majority of Americans are asleep at the wheel and unconcerned that the car is going over the cliff. They are completely apathetic.
If we had a better educated public, we would not be in the mess in the first place.
Maybe free higher education at public universities is a start.
Trump is opportunistic and his supporters are less educated, but they know something is wrong with the system. Sanders' supporters are better educated and also see the system failing.
The majority of Americans are asleep at the wheel and unconcerned that the car is going over the cliff. They are completely apathetic.
If we had a better educated public, we would not be in the mess in the first place.
Maybe free higher education at public universities is a start.
15
No. Too late. We deserve to be destroyed to disappear. We are a curse to world peace.
The difference between angry voters who support Trump and angry voters who support Sanders is that income inequality is a documented and growing problem that affects tens of millions of people, while the notion of terrorists coming across the border is almost completely fictional. I don't mean to say that we shouldn't be using all possible safeguards, but look at the facts:
– The net immigration from Mexico is now near zero (so we need a "yuge wall"?).
– The hurdles facing refugees applying for asylum in the US are enormous: they have to be vetted by at least 4 different agencies and the average waiting time is 2 years. Far easier to get a tourist visa, and that is being tightened up.
– Since 9/11, more people have been killed in terrorist attacks by domestic terrorists than by foreign terrorists.
– Your chance of being killed by a foreign terrorist in the US is less that your chance of being struck by lightning.
The Fox Noise Machine has ensured that the threat of terrorism is inflated to panic proportions. Their motive is to distract people from the theft of trillions of dollars from the middle class by the 0.1% over the past 30 years.
– The net immigration from Mexico is now near zero (so we need a "yuge wall"?).
– The hurdles facing refugees applying for asylum in the US are enormous: they have to be vetted by at least 4 different agencies and the average waiting time is 2 years. Far easier to get a tourist visa, and that is being tightened up.
– Since 9/11, more people have been killed in terrorist attacks by domestic terrorists than by foreign terrorists.
– Your chance of being killed by a foreign terrorist in the US is less that your chance of being struck by lightning.
The Fox Noise Machine has ensured that the threat of terrorism is inflated to panic proportions. Their motive is to distract people from the theft of trillions of dollars from the middle class by the 0.1% over the past 30 years.
10
Sanders' sycophants that self-describe as morally superior to all others have a "forrest for the trees" perception problem. Trump's supporters are angry about income inequality as well, but are blaming Mexicans because their loud -mouthed ranter is blaming them. Sanders dudes are blaming banks and Hillary because that is whom causes Bernie to howl at the moon. Blaming other people for your problems rarely gets you anywhere but angrier, which is the true story of Bernie's 26 years in Congress....no outcomes just a lot of people who can't stand the belligerent self-righteous lone wolf. Really angry people are typically very ineffective in getting anything done because they are constantly focused on their self-righteous anger and how bad the other guy is compared to them. Sanders' crowd sounds like a bunch of preachy Church Ladies diagnosing everyone's problems perceiving reality, except their own of course. Blaming other is easy, lazy, and pointless as there is no "martyr catalogue" to redeem points for self-righteous indignation. The only real answer is to grow up.
Attempting to equate the leftist voter base of the Democratic Party with Trump supporters is ignorant and insulting.
The Times writes on the Sanders campaign and Sanders supporters as if we are some strange, exotic species from a different planet. Perhaps time to pull some of the journalists out of Hillary campaign headquarters and actually assign them to go find this strange species, attempt to approach it, communicate with it, and understand it.
As it stands now, the Times has endorsed a candidate that a serious chunk of the Democratic voter base will never under any circumstances vote for. Don't the editorialists and journalists know this? Don't they care to find out why?
The Times writes on the Sanders campaign and Sanders supporters as if we are some strange, exotic species from a different planet. Perhaps time to pull some of the journalists out of Hillary campaign headquarters and actually assign them to go find this strange species, attempt to approach it, communicate with it, and understand it.
As it stands now, the Times has endorsed a candidate that a serious chunk of the Democratic voter base will never under any circumstances vote for. Don't the editorialists and journalists know this? Don't they care to find out why?
33
"Attempting to equate the leftist voter base of the Democratic Party with Trump supporters is ignorant and insulting."
Yes -
And don't we find it to be a bit more than ironic that the Times publishes this "left-handed slap" at Bernie Sanders and his supporters on the same day it announces its endorsement for Hillary Clinton to be the Democratic Nominee -- ?
If the Times can "equate the leftist voter base of the Democratic Party with Trump supporters" - as you say -- then imagine the comparison one could make between the status-quo supporters of Jeb Bush...and the Wall Street backers of Hillary Clinton --
Yes -
And don't we find it to be a bit more than ironic that the Times publishes this "left-handed slap" at Bernie Sanders and his supporters on the same day it announces its endorsement for Hillary Clinton to be the Democratic Nominee -- ?
If the Times can "equate the leftist voter base of the Democratic Party with Trump supporters" - as you say -- then imagine the comparison one could make between the status-quo supporters of Jeb Bush...and the Wall Street backers of Hillary Clinton --
We've been talking to them here in the comments, they are not listening. But their non-Sanders supporters are about as numerous as Trump supporters, from my empirical record keeping here. On an Anti-Bernie article lately, I notice the Verified Commenters run in to spread their anti-Bernie stuff around thick in the early going. After that, in the later commentary, it is the normal folks -- above board and real as the grass-roots feeling the Bern.
Bernie Sanders is the first politician I have ever donated money to. If he is not the nominee I will not vote for Hillary Clinton. I wonder how many people out there are like me. A priori I would be split between voting for Jill Stein or no one.
However I understand the appeal of Donald Trump. He is uncouth but in many ways he is in fact more liberal than Hillary Clinton (against Iraq War, for comprehensive Health Care, for campaign finance reform, etc..). While he may be rude he is not a cultural conservative. I have such disdain for the DNC and Wasserman-Schultz (as well as the GOP establishment) that I would think seriously about voting for Trump if Sanders is not the nominee.
I hope the DNC is aware that there are likely others like me out there.
However I understand the appeal of Donald Trump. He is uncouth but in many ways he is in fact more liberal than Hillary Clinton (against Iraq War, for comprehensive Health Care, for campaign finance reform, etc..). While he may be rude he is not a cultural conservative. I have such disdain for the DNC and Wasserman-Schultz (as well as the GOP establishment) that I would think seriously about voting for Trump if Sanders is not the nominee.
I hope the DNC is aware that there are likely others like me out there.
23
Both Sanders and Trump are against our Free Trade bills. These bills have encouraged manufacturers to build plants abroad, where the labor is cheap and environmental laws are ignored, rather than here, in the U.S., because they can bring the finished products into the U.S. to sell them, without paying any tariffs. The result is that American blue collar workers cannot find work.
One of Bill Clinton’s signature policies was NAFTA, the free trade bill that set the stage for moving American manufacturing jobs to Mexico. His wife is not saying that this bill needs to be re-evaluated and revised since it appears to have been a mistake for the American worker. Rather, she started advocating for yet another free trade bill, the TPP, calling it the Gold Standard. Once she realized that public sentiment was against the TPP, she hedged her support by saying she didn’t like one part of it.
A vote for Hillary is a vote for unconditional Free Trade. A vote for Sanders or Trump shows support for American workers and their families.
One of Bill Clinton’s signature policies was NAFTA, the free trade bill that set the stage for moving American manufacturing jobs to Mexico. His wife is not saying that this bill needs to be re-evaluated and revised since it appears to have been a mistake for the American worker. Rather, she started advocating for yet another free trade bill, the TPP, calling it the Gold Standard. Once she realized that public sentiment was against the TPP, she hedged her support by saying she didn’t like one part of it.
A vote for Hillary is a vote for unconditional Free Trade. A vote for Sanders or Trump shows support for American workers and their families.
22
Bill Clinton, the opening act of the free-traders. A realrooster in the hen house, for himself and for the neolib/neocon hybridization we are currently up against. Also known as Plutocracy in the land of the oligopolies and mono-landscapes of too-bigs-to-fail too-big-to-jail.
>
This country will elect a rich person over a socialist any day of the week.
The GOP is setting a trap for the dems by not attacking Bernie right now, but if Bernie should win the nomination they'll spring it. Bernie's facts and program details will be lost in a barrage of attacks seldom heard before. Sanders ideas write the attacks by themselves.....increase taxes, socialism, free this free that.... This is America we are talking about no?
As bad as things are going for the GOP, they cannot believe their luck that Bernie may be the nominee.
This country will elect a rich person over a socialist any day of the week.
The GOP is setting a trap for the dems by not attacking Bernie right now, but if Bernie should win the nomination they'll spring it. Bernie's facts and program details will be lost in a barrage of attacks seldom heard before. Sanders ideas write the attacks by themselves.....increase taxes, socialism, free this free that.... This is America we are talking about no?
As bad as things are going for the GOP, they cannot believe their luck that Bernie may be the nominee.
12
If Hillary is nominated, Trump will be our next president. You can take that to the bank.
Supporters of Trump and Sanders are worried about the inevitable issues that neither of the candidates can fix. Inequality is a consequence of capitalism and terrorists will cross borders as long as there are borders. There is nothing any candidate can do about it.
19
In the months and years ahead, you'll start to understand that inequality is a product of human nature. You don't know there was inequality in the USSR? In Cuba?
You think these Communist countries needed soldiers and walls to keep their people from escaping because they liked it so much?
You think these Communist countries needed soldiers and walls to keep their people from escaping because they liked it so much?
There is something that can be done about inequality. It is unregulated
capitalism that has resulted in the gross distortion of capital we see today. It will yield to thoughtful management. Rolling back post-depression reforms is directly responsible for the disgusting inequality we see today.
capitalism that has resulted in the gross distortion of capital we see today. It will yield to thoughtful management. Rolling back post-depression reforms is directly responsible for the disgusting inequality we see today.
1
Well THAT's no reason to vote for Cruz or Hilary!
Whatever, angry people. When has there been an election when people are not pissed off at incumbents? Americans have this discordant relationship with their government:
1. we hate the government
2. the government is not doing enough for us
3. the government is doing too much for THOSE people
4. leave us alone government.
Make up your minds! And if you are wise, focus on state and local government (see also Flint, MI)
1. we hate the government
2. the government is not doing enough for us
3. the government is doing too much for THOSE people
4. leave us alone government.
Make up your minds! And if you are wise, focus on state and local government (see also Flint, MI)
2
It is a split between those who believe that a couple of hundred billionaires and CEOs are the problem, and those who place the blame on the entire upper tier of affluent professionals who run the country.
You can believe charts and graphs in an economist's PowerPoint presentation, or you can believe what your own experience in your own community has taught you. Why are medical costs so high? Why is college tuition so high? Why are property taxes so high? This money is not going to billionaires.
You can believe charts and graphs in an economist's PowerPoint presentation, or you can believe what your own experience in your own community has taught you. Why are medical costs so high? Why is college tuition so high? Why are property taxes so high? This money is not going to billionaires.
4
This is wrong. Lower and middle income Americans generally like Latinos as people. Indeed, by race, they are white and speak a Latin language. The lower and middle income, even including Latinos with papers, do not like the flood of new immigrants that is motivated by an elite desire to keep wages low. The anger at that policy has reached a boiling point.
Trump appeals to this feeling symbolically and emotionally, and people are convinced he can make a deal and get some compromise that really works. Sanders makes the point intellectually, and people are afraid that he will not be that effective. Maybe that is a reason he is most popular among the higher income who think something must be offered to maintain political stability, but don't want anything too radical.
Trump appeals to this feeling symbolically and emotionally, and people are convinced he can make a deal and get some compromise that really works. Sanders makes the point intellectually, and people are afraid that he will not be that effective. Maybe that is a reason he is most popular among the higher income who think something must be offered to maintain political stability, but don't want anything too radical.
11
What Bernie Sanders is all about has nothing to do with anger. He is motivated by a love of his "fellow" human beings, a thirst for justice and a desire to fix what is wrong in the world. He has been unwavering in working for the common good during his over 30 years of public service, not to mention the many years of social justice activity during his youth.
This is, by the way, the essence of the Jewish concept of "Tikkun Olam", which means literally "repair of the world".
Working for social justice and a better world is up there among the highest of human motivations. That the "powers that be" are fighting Senator Sanders' campaign tooth and nail only indicates how low we have been pulled as a nation. Bottom line, indeed.
Sanders supporters support his candidacy with enthusiasm, optimism, and hope.
The anger is in the other camps.
This is, by the way, the essence of the Jewish concept of "Tikkun Olam", which means literally "repair of the world".
Working for social justice and a better world is up there among the highest of human motivations. That the "powers that be" are fighting Senator Sanders' campaign tooth and nail only indicates how low we have been pulled as a nation. Bottom line, indeed.
Sanders supporters support his candidacy with enthusiasm, optimism, and hope.
The anger is in the other camps.
40
That's exactly it! There are plenty of things in American politics to be angry about, but anger is NOT the dominant emotion among Bernie's supporters. Rather it's optimism, hope, and relief that someone is finally speaking for us!
Bernie would make a GREAT "Community Organizer"..! I'd vote for him in that position...
"Supporters of Donald J. Trump expressed concern about terrorists coming across the border, while Bernie Sanders’s backers were anxious about growing inequality."
With respect to this summary, Trump supporters are concerned about mainly nonexistent bogeyman. Backers of Bernie Sanders are anxious about inequality which is very real, every day, and, yes, growing.
With respect to this summary, Trump supporters are concerned about mainly nonexistent bogeyman. Backers of Bernie Sanders are anxious about inequality which is very real, every day, and, yes, growing.
36
Oh yeah --"career politicians, unlawful immigrants, terrorists and people… taking advantage of welfare" are "non-existent bogeymen"??!!
Just how far in the sand is your head buried, anyway?
Just how far in the sand is your head buried, anyway?
I support both men. I am traditionally a Bernie Boy, but i must say Donald excites me.
Yes Trump is a little crazy, worse still is his ego.
But the man is a builder, he is comfortable on the world stage, he is beholden to no one and he screams, the King has no clothes.
Trump has leadership qualities, a beautiful wife, and will woo them on the world stage.
Yes Trump is a little crazy, worse still is his ego.
But the man is a builder, he is comfortable on the world stage, he is beholden to no one and he screams, the King has no clothes.
Trump has leadership qualities, a beautiful wife, and will woo them on the world stage.
10
Perhaps Trump supporter and Sanders supporters ought to join forces and start that political revolution Sanders is talking about. Once we can all agree on the fact that big corporations run this country to suit themselves, it should be pretty obvious who to vote for. Trump is one of the elite, and Sanders wants to make them pay their fair share. As everyone knows, I'm for Bernie Sanders.
28
I am a voter and can guarantee at least 5 more votes by family members and Donald has all 7 of those votes and will working for more votes. Every morning I walk around the neighborhood along the way I meet several of my elderly friends. They are nearly all Democrats until now. They can't hardly stop talking about Trump. Saying things like well he is the only one with ideas. So there you go Trump will be the next President because he has ideas that people can relate to.
People who look at the prospect of a Trump v Sanders contest as some kind of threat should relax. The damage is done, you see. What you are observing is the effect, not the cause.
18
Why are people angry?
Sure, the banksters destroyed the economy years ago and then tapped the public purse to the tune of trillions of dollars while rendering themselves somehow immune to the prosecution for fraud, but so what?
Personally I am not angry at all...sickened, maybe.
I might vote, though, and it has been a long, long time since I've done so.
Bernie Sanders is my choice, whether he wins the nomination or not.
Sure, the banksters destroyed the economy years ago and then tapped the public purse to the tune of trillions of dollars while rendering themselves somehow immune to the prosecution for fraud, but so what?
Personally I am not angry at all...sickened, maybe.
I might vote, though, and it has been a long, long time since I've done so.
Bernie Sanders is my choice, whether he wins the nomination or not.
38
Number one, the Trump voters are angrier at a substantially higher percentage than the Sanders voters. Number two, their stated reasons for being angry are largely ludicrous or incorrect. Since reciting the Pledge of Allegiance has not been restricted except perhaps in a claim from a viral, unattributed email stream and the words "political correctness" seem to mean the freedom to insult people or groups you don't like with impunity, childish complaints/falsehoods from whiners IMO. Neither the lie or the whine are worthy of anger, but flail away, if you must.
Game, set, match to the Sanders voters whose concerns are for the many and based on facts. Wages have been flat for working people since Reagan, you need only look at your yearly Social Security mailing to see that. For those that think Donald Trump can fix that or anything with his boasts and "trust me" bunk, I hope you don't get the chance to be painfully disappointed. As for me, I support Sec. Clinton, but will work hard for Sen Sanders should he win.
Game, set, match to the Sanders voters whose concerns are for the many and based on facts. Wages have been flat for working people since Reagan, you need only look at your yearly Social Security mailing to see that. For those that think Donald Trump can fix that or anything with his boasts and "trust me" bunk, I hope you don't get the chance to be painfully disappointed. As for me, I support Sec. Clinton, but will work hard for Sen Sanders should he win.
14
It matters not if the concerns of Trump's supporters are legitimate. They can still vote for their candidate, who is playing to their concerns artfully.
The simplistic political analysis consistently forwarded by the NYT is an insult to the reader. The lack of insight into why citizens are supporting Bernie Sanders is puzzling, unimaginative and boring. The fiction of a "right" and "left" comparable fringe has absolutely no depth intellectually. The editorial choice to give so much attention to the spectacle that is Donald Trump seems like sleazy journalism wrapped in middle-of-the-road rhetoric. It feels like People Magazine with fewer pictures, more words and a slightly better vocabulary the purpose of which is to entertain a somewhat liberal readership and lull them into thinking they are better off with business as usual.
89
Howard Dean was politically destroyed in Iowa by the pretense of ANGER. They are trying it again. The words "angry" and "anger" appear nearly 20 times in this short article. NYT is trying to merge Sanders supporters with those of Trump - all being, basically, angry white guys. This is pure propaganda. A political revolution may indeed be in progress.
Just look at the top Reader's Picks for any article involving Bernie since he got into the race and you will see some of the most rational and well-informed readers of this paper (or any paper).
There is massive disenfranchisement across the county that does transcend political persuasion. There are shared concerns about the power and unfairness of the establishment and large-scale institutions. But trying to equate the type (or stereotype) of people that support Trump with the support Bernie has is manipulation, conscious or otherwise.
How this article could be written without mentioning that Bernie polls BETTER than Hillary against Trump says it all.
Just look at the top Reader's Picks for any article involving Bernie since he got into the race and you will see some of the most rational and well-informed readers of this paper (or any paper).
There is massive disenfranchisement across the county that does transcend political persuasion. There are shared concerns about the power and unfairness of the establishment and large-scale institutions. But trying to equate the type (or stereotype) of people that support Trump with the support Bernie has is manipulation, conscious or otherwise.
How this article could be written without mentioning that Bernie polls BETTER than Hillary against Trump says it all.
121
There are lots of white angry men in every audience at Trump rallies and Sanders events. They may be angry at different things, but as a woman who has had to deal with a lot of the obstacles that they currently face all of my life, I have little sympathy for any of them. Conservative, progressive or otherwise!
Anyone thinking that a 74 years old communist is going to be president is a loser. Trump would get ten times the votes Bernie would get. Maybe in New York and New Jersey he might get some votes. No way for the rest of the country.
To believe that NYT's comments are representative of US voters views' is outright comical. Guess you have never read what is posted on Faux. On some level one must realize that the people who spend time in these comments, as I do, are typically not working, right? Especially the ones during the middle of the day. Do you think that maybe the commenters who respond first are often the ones with the most votes since people may only read the first few? I would say that is a distinct possibility.
I support Bernie Sanders because I believe in his policies. I don't think I can vote for Hillary Clinton - 30 years ago her policies would have been solid Republican. And I grow weary of her response to Bernie's positions - whitch seem to be, if you think the status quo is the best we can do, vote for me. Sorry, I want better for my grandchildren.
45
I want an inhabitable planet, and Sanders has cared about that for a long time.
So you want your grandchildren to be communist. That is against everything I have been taught since the 1st grade. We used to hide under our desk throughout grade school. All because of communist USSR You should move there now so your grand kids can get used it. I hope none are homosexual. I don't think they would last long.
A choice between a carnival barker capitalist and a Senate-lifer socialist? For the sake of the country, I hope not.
4
Senate-lifer DEMOCRATIC socialist! People every day are learning the difference and not falling for the old derogatory meaning any more.
Donald could buy a thousand carnival barkers and he would not loose any sleep over it. Period It boils down to. Do you want a woman that tormented women her husband raped or a fine distinguish American Citizen who would work hard for this country. He all has had most everything we all wish we had. I really believes he loves this country. That's more than I think Obama does. All obama does is put the country down. There is no way all of these immigrants are good for the country. We have to many poor people with needs we can't meet. Hillary is running as obamas third term. She should have her own good ideas. But I hear none. If we wanted Obama we would have asked him to run for a third term.
Excuse me, I didn't realize there were REPUBLICAN socialists and didn't want to be redundant.
If Trump wins, it will be the greatest business deal of his life. He will make a killing !!
That's what he does.
After all, if God didn't want them shorn, he wouldn't have made them sheep !
Does anyone really believe that Trump will look out for them?
Oddly enough, that's the sort of thing Bernie wants to stop.
Diogenes supports Bernie.
I guess we'll see how smart the American people really are - unfortunately, they don't have a great record.
That's what he does.
After all, if God didn't want them shorn, he wouldn't have made them sheep !
Does anyone really believe that Trump will look out for them?
Oddly enough, that's the sort of thing Bernie wants to stop.
Diogenes supports Bernie.
I guess we'll see how smart the American people really are - unfortunately, they don't have a great record.
Your typical American voter may not be smart, but they aren't stupid either. Trump is just a distraction, there is no way he'll be elected. He's a blowhard that was born on third base and takes credit for hitting a home run.
Bernie does want to stop want he wants is all of your money to do what he thinks it should be spent on. Sorry, NO DEAL
Mr.Holihan Electing Bernie Sanders guarantees Civil War. Raising taxes and taking away guns is not the way to go.
3
No need to worry if Bernie gets in office and he tries to raise taxes as high as his spending those guns would be finding their way to the white house. Then Bernie would finally get hole-y
You know Sanders was criticized within his party for being a pro-gun candidate from a rural state, right?
I'm not sure these two candidates are comparable in the slightest. Let's start with the anger issue, since it's allegedly the key connection.
The supporters of both are angry--but where Trump professes to be angry, I don't really think he is. He hasn't lost anything in this bad economy, or been personally faced with out of control immigration, or terrorists talking Trump Tower. No, he has exploited all the issues he harps on in order to whip up his supporters, feeding their frenzy.
Sanders, on the other is angry, and legitimately so. As are his supporters, the left-behind middle class squeezed by both Congress and corporate interests. Sanders uses anger to advocate policies, not foment anger for anger's sake.
OK, set aside anger, and the candidates are as different as day and night. Trump offers no policy details, just sweeping and vague visions of slaying enemies as he defines them for his base. Sanders has been in political life all his life, and his positions aren't new. He has a command of facts and figures and proposals to address them, even if some feel they have little chance of being enacted. Trump is all show and swagger, Sanders could care less for material things. That alone makes him an anomaly in political life.
Both candidates claim to be self-made men not dependent on big money. But while Trump is spending his own money, he had access to big money, his Dad, to launch with. Not so Sanders, who can't be "bought" because he refuses to be.
The supporters of both are angry--but where Trump professes to be angry, I don't really think he is. He hasn't lost anything in this bad economy, or been personally faced with out of control immigration, or terrorists talking Trump Tower. No, he has exploited all the issues he harps on in order to whip up his supporters, feeding their frenzy.
Sanders, on the other is angry, and legitimately so. As are his supporters, the left-behind middle class squeezed by both Congress and corporate interests. Sanders uses anger to advocate policies, not foment anger for anger's sake.
OK, set aside anger, and the candidates are as different as day and night. Trump offers no policy details, just sweeping and vague visions of slaying enemies as he defines them for his base. Sanders has been in political life all his life, and his positions aren't new. He has a command of facts and figures and proposals to address them, even if some feel they have little chance of being enacted. Trump is all show and swagger, Sanders could care less for material things. That alone makes him an anomaly in political life.
Both candidates claim to be self-made men not dependent on big money. But while Trump is spending his own money, he had access to big money, his Dad, to launch with. Not so Sanders, who can't be "bought" because he refuses to be.
76
In what way has Sanders, a longterm senator, been affected by this economy?
Sanders can't be bought my eye. He has been bought by our tax money since he was a kid. How many years has he been a government employee. You are killing me.
What exactly has long term anger ever solved? I was taught that to give into anger, especially beyond a flash, is complete self-indulgence, producing nothing but dangerous hormones and neurotransmitters like epinephrine that damage your health severely. Also, statistically speaking, Sanders voters sat out the midterms, and we got a bunch of mindless heathens in Congress now. that will supposedly vanish in the upcoming "revolution" that a draft deferment guy that is a citizen of two countries will lead. Send some of that Vermont weed down South please. I think Sanders voters should be angry with themselves for neglecting to vote and participate in the political process, and are now saying it is everyone else's fault so they will overthrow the system (if they are on semester break). Blaming others gets one nothing in life, except evidently votes of those continually indulging in angry "righteous" indignation....tell it to the Church Lady.
I see this as a struggle between those who believe that we are all in this together and those who believe that we are all in it for ourselves.
The latter is not simply cruel and social Darwinist, but plausibly a door to fascism and-or authoritarianism and, yes, maybe a very ugly civil strife that would lead gods know where.
That people will vote for the Trumps and Cruzes is more evidence that our culture and education system is pathetic.
The latter is not simply cruel and social Darwinist, but plausibly a door to fascism and-or authoritarianism and, yes, maybe a very ugly civil strife that would lead gods know where.
That people will vote for the Trumps and Cruzes is more evidence that our culture and education system is pathetic.
14
They are two sides of the same coin. Here comes universal health care.
2
We can only hope! It is way overdue! Or perhaps we should continue to let people suffer, die and go into bankruptcy while insurance companies and Big Pharma make their gigantic profits.
Go Bernie!
Go Bernie!
This article epitomizes two pervasive flaws in NYT coverage: a) what you have gotten wrong about Sanders' appeal; and b) what you have utterly failed at in terms of investigative journalism into Donald Trump.
First, you show your misunderstanding when you insist on paralleling the voters for Sanders and Trump by using the verb "worried." It's too weak a verb for Trump, who plays on downright fear that's been mongered, paranoified, and even gone violent, taking some isolated instances of criminal undocumented immigrants and castigating an entire national, religious or other entity as if all were to be feared as rapists, murderers and terrorists. The only fear that each party shares is that the other party might win and destroy the nation for opposite reasons. But Trump voters add xenophobic fear. For Sanders' voters, it is anger at the economic injustice of what has already happened - and not in isolated instances: our entire economy has been warred upon by the likes of Goldman Sachs. There's no fear-mongering or paranoia in this anger.
Second, you quote Trump supporters who you have allowed - your crime of omission – to be seduced by Trump's claim of being "unbeholden" just because he's a billionaire. Where is your examination, long overdue, of his history of deal-making and who indeed he is already beholden to? The only true unbeholdenness comes from full public financing, which Sanders exemplifies and you've all but forgotten.
First, you show your misunderstanding when you insist on paralleling the voters for Sanders and Trump by using the verb "worried." It's too weak a verb for Trump, who plays on downright fear that's been mongered, paranoified, and even gone violent, taking some isolated instances of criminal undocumented immigrants and castigating an entire national, religious or other entity as if all were to be feared as rapists, murderers and terrorists. The only fear that each party shares is that the other party might win and destroy the nation for opposite reasons. But Trump voters add xenophobic fear. For Sanders' voters, it is anger at the economic injustice of what has already happened - and not in isolated instances: our entire economy has been warred upon by the likes of Goldman Sachs. There's no fear-mongering or paranoia in this anger.
Second, you quote Trump supporters who you have allowed - your crime of omission – to be seduced by Trump's claim of being "unbeholden" just because he's a billionaire. Where is your examination, long overdue, of his history of deal-making and who indeed he is already beholden to? The only true unbeholdenness comes from full public financing, which Sanders exemplifies and you've all but forgotten.
59
So the criteria for a voter who thinks he's 'angry' is a deep-pocketed bigot who claims “What I say is what I do. Nobody else tells me differently.”
Notwithstanding that's not how the US presidency works, what if your bigot with the attitude is spouting absurdities that no president would do even if they could, just for effect & the appearance of a 'movement'?
Those people aren't angry because Washington is 'bought', they're angry because of the nonwhite president, & Rush Limbaugh. Beyond that, they have absolutely no political idea what they're talking about.
Bernie does.
Notwithstanding that's not how the US presidency works, what if your bigot with the attitude is spouting absurdities that no president would do even if they could, just for effect & the appearance of a 'movement'?
Those people aren't angry because Washington is 'bought', they're angry because of the nonwhite president, & Rush Limbaugh. Beyond that, they have absolutely no political idea what they're talking about.
Bernie does.
25
Sanders cannot bring himself to call Hillary a liar because he is the Straw Man Hillary is using
3
I have said it before and I will say it again:
There is really very little difference between the fervor that Trump and Sanders supporters have for their preferred candidates.
I have mentioned that I support Hillary and here's a short list of the retorts I've received:
'You're an enemy of the state!'
'You're unAmerican! How can you support that liar?'
'How can you be so stupid?'
'She's a warmonger!
'She's a criminal and deserves to be in jail!'
It goes on, and many comments that I cannot publish here.
Oh, and these comments have come from Bernie supporters.
Fanaticism, regardless of political bent, is still fanaticism.
There is really very little difference between the fervor that Trump and Sanders supporters have for their preferred candidates.
I have mentioned that I support Hillary and here's a short list of the retorts I've received:
'You're an enemy of the state!'
'You're unAmerican! How can you support that liar?'
'How can you be so stupid?'
'She's a warmonger!
'She's a criminal and deserves to be in jail!'
It goes on, and many comments that I cannot publish here.
Oh, and these comments have come from Bernie supporters.
Fanaticism, regardless of political bent, is still fanaticism.
15
Not all Sanders supporters are fanatics. What you have here is the fallacy of faulty generalization. Easy to do in a climate as vitriolic as the Internet...
I'm a Sanders supporter because his views better align with mine (except on guns), and I think he's more respectable as a person (i.e. Clinton is respectable; Sanders is highly respectable). I'll still happily vote for Clinton in the general if it comes to that.
I'm a Sanders supporter because his views better align with mine (except on guns), and I think he's more respectable as a person (i.e. Clinton is respectable; Sanders is highly respectable). I'll still happily vote for Clinton in the general if it comes to that.
I'll grant you I have seen some disgusting interchanges on the comment sections, but let's be honest, they are coming from all candidates' supporters, not just Sanders' supporters. Trying to paint his supporters as fanatics is an obvious attempt at trying to silence them. Bernie Sanders has asked his supporters to be respectful of differing opinions and from what I see on the internet, most are. Passion for wanting a much needed change in this country is not anger.
If you vote for Hillary you deserve all of the threats Period.
The person most responsible for the success of the "angry outsider" candidate (on both sides) is Barack Obama.
Just last week, former Obama advisor David Axelrod wrote in the NY Times, "open-seat presidential elections are shaped by perceptions of the style and personality of the outgoing incumbent." Mr. Axelrod included the example of Jimmy Carter ousting Gerald Ford but conveniently omitted how Jimmy Carter was crushed in the next election because of his ineffectiveness (open seat or not). Ronald Reagan won by the highest number of electoral votes by a non-incumbent.
Mr. Obama's weakness of leadership is not unlike Mr. Carter's, in matters both foreign and domestic. By comparison, Bill Clinton left office with a 65% approval rating, higher than any other departing President since Harry Truman. It is very doubtful Mr. Obama will even come close.
Much how an ineffective Jimmy Carter begat Ronald Reagan and his "Let's make America great again," the past is repeating itself, even in Mr. Trump's slogan.
Just last week, former Obama advisor David Axelrod wrote in the NY Times, "open-seat presidential elections are shaped by perceptions of the style and personality of the outgoing incumbent." Mr. Axelrod included the example of Jimmy Carter ousting Gerald Ford but conveniently omitted how Jimmy Carter was crushed in the next election because of his ineffectiveness (open seat or not). Ronald Reagan won by the highest number of electoral votes by a non-incumbent.
Mr. Obama's weakness of leadership is not unlike Mr. Carter's, in matters both foreign and domestic. By comparison, Bill Clinton left office with a 65% approval rating, higher than any other departing President since Harry Truman. It is very doubtful Mr. Obama will even come close.
Much how an ineffective Jimmy Carter begat Ronald Reagan and his "Let's make America great again," the past is repeating itself, even in Mr. Trump's slogan.
9
I'm not sure that this argument holds on the liberal side. Sanders supporters are angry that the real power is held by corporations who buy politicians; it doesn't have much to do with Pres. Obama at all. Liberals don't view him as weak; they view democracy and economic mobility as endangered.
For Trump supporters, the perceived weakness of Pres. Obama has more to do with the racism rampant among conservatives these days than it does with any tangible, demonstrable weakness.
For Trump supporters, the perceived weakness of Pres. Obama has more to do with the racism rampant among conservatives these days than it does with any tangible, demonstrable weakness.
Obama supporters always say it's racism holding him back.
Let's look at facts, not opinion. In 2008, Iowa, a state that is 95% white, voted both in the Democratic caucus AND in the general election for Barack Obama (and again in 2012) where there were other qualified candidates that could have won rather than a freshman senator. Everyone was sure the "closet racists" of the Midwest would derail him and that was a myth. Does racism exist? Sure, but not to the degree that it's made Pres. Obama ineffective.
Did racists tell him to make such poor policies regarding Syria (the "red line") or tell Obama to call ISIS the "JV team" until the Paris attacks made it obvious he was wrong?
Did racists tell him to spend so much effort on Obamacare which covers 17 million people out of a country of 319 million (just over 5% of the country in a plan that is already financially insolvent)? Did racists make the rollout of Obamacare a joke? Give me some facts, not just the old "the racists did it" line.
Let's look at facts, not opinion. In 2008, Iowa, a state that is 95% white, voted both in the Democratic caucus AND in the general election for Barack Obama (and again in 2012) where there were other qualified candidates that could have won rather than a freshman senator. Everyone was sure the "closet racists" of the Midwest would derail him and that was a myth. Does racism exist? Sure, but not to the degree that it's made Pres. Obama ineffective.
Did racists tell him to make such poor policies regarding Syria (the "red line") or tell Obama to call ISIS the "JV team" until the Paris attacks made it obvious he was wrong?
Did racists tell him to spend so much effort on Obamacare which covers 17 million people out of a country of 319 million (just over 5% of the country in a plan that is already financially insolvent)? Did racists make the rollout of Obamacare a joke? Give me some facts, not just the old "the racists did it" line.
One is self evident and the other is not. Which is which depends on your perspective. Does one perceive the threat from below or above? One leads to facism and the other to socialism. Will the entrenched ruling classes hear the roar or merely seek to ride out the storm?
30
Insightful, but socialism is an awfully strong word for what Sen. Sanders actually wants. Nationalized healthcare and subsidized higher education are just not that radical. He still believes in the free market.
I cannot speak for the Left, but campaign conservatives on the Right are all but foaming at the mouth over the possibility of Trump or Cruz winning the nomination. National Review in particular cannot believe that their supporters (whom they have called "stupid, illiterate, low-info rubes from fly-over country) would disregard the will and wishes of the elites. Particularly the editors, Cooke, Williamson, and Goldberg who are apparently all in the tank for Rubio.
If it weren't such an important election with so much riding on the outcome of the primaries, their growing desperation would be amusing.
If it weren't such an important election with so much riding on the outcome of the primaries, their growing desperation would be amusing.
George Carlin said the system threw everyone overboard 40 years ago. We're poised to take it back.
12
I plan to vote for Hillary, but guess what? I am plenty angry myself. And whoever gets elected, I hope the people can keep our anger and focus it back toward Washington DC. Because they need to keep listening to us AFTER they are elected. Both angry sides need to get their problems listened to, and start seeing Democrats and Republicans working together to find solutions.
And maybe we should learn to listen to and talk to each other as well.
And maybe we should learn to listen to and talk to each other as well.
2
Please don't lump Sanders & Trump supporters together. The latter's devotees may be reacting to mainstream politicians but we Sanders supporters are voting for the right person for the job, not against anyone.
17
We just finished 7 years of Democrat rule, and we are now $10,000,000,000,000.00 further in debt... How much more would 8 years of Socialist Bernie add to it?
Right or wrong people are sick and tired of "the establishment". Its coming to a precipice after decades of the same.
Trump and Sanders are running under the (R) and (D) because its the only way to win, but they are both hardly an (R) or a (D). You might hate Trump or you might hate Bernie but something has to change. ANYTHING has to change. One of these two might be the only hope for the foreseeable future.
Trump and Sanders are running under the (R) and (D) because its the only way to win, but they are both hardly an (R) or a (D). You might hate Trump or you might hate Bernie but something has to change. ANYTHING has to change. One of these two might be the only hope for the foreseeable future.
16
Agree.. I'm shocked how complacent we all have been in this country...
Like it or not .... It's shake @ bake time
Like it or not .... It's shake @ bake time
Yes. Sanders and Trump. Occupying similar places on their respective ends of the political spectrum, and attracting similar adherents - angry and irrational. And some of those adherents are probably even good people! Such a shame.
Very Foxy.
Very Foxy.
2
Senator Sanders brings out the best in us --- compassion and hope.
Trump brings out the worst in us --- fear and hatred. I'm volunteering and voting for Sanders.
Trump brings out the worst in us --- fear and hatred. I'm volunteering and voting for Sanders.
35
I have a request of Times reporters when writing these kind of comparison stores in the future. When you detail the feelings/beliefs of the two groups you are comparing, can you also please indicate whether those groups' beliefs are based in reality or not?
So, for example, when you state that Trump supporters are angry because terrorists are crossing our borders, would you please point out that this is overwhelmingly NOT true? We are more likely to be killed by lightning while being bitten by a shark than be a victim of an immigrant terrorist. Conversely, Sanders supporters who are angry about economic inequality are actually angry about a quantifiable economic fact.
Ditto regarding the corrupting influence of money in politics. Supporters of both candidates seem to be bothered by this corrosive influence, fair enough. But maybe your reporters could point out that only one party is actually proposing, and has actually proposed policies to do something about it. Helping voters sort out reality from fiction/propaganda is perhaps the most important job of a free press. The Times can do better here.
So, for example, when you state that Trump supporters are angry because terrorists are crossing our borders, would you please point out that this is overwhelmingly NOT true? We are more likely to be killed by lightning while being bitten by a shark than be a victim of an immigrant terrorist. Conversely, Sanders supporters who are angry about economic inequality are actually angry about a quantifiable economic fact.
Ditto regarding the corrupting influence of money in politics. Supporters of both candidates seem to be bothered by this corrosive influence, fair enough. But maybe your reporters could point out that only one party is actually proposing, and has actually proposed policies to do something about it. Helping voters sort out reality from fiction/propaganda is perhaps the most important job of a free press. The Times can do better here.
36
I am not sure how much energy it is worth expending on talking to the NYTIMES, they know what they are doing and why. It has to do with supporting the status quo. They have lost all respectability, and here we have more click bait.
People of America are angry. The primaries, a hopeful sign for me. The Trump and Bernie supporters, against the status quo.
A Bernie supporter. I am not going to bash Trump voters. I understand their anger. At least Trump says what he means, and even attacked Fox.
I ask Trump supporters, to look at what they are paying for healthcare. Ask what they have to pay ,to get their kids through college. Ask them to look at the current defense budget. We are the top, in military might. I ask Trump supporters, to look at the young people that sign up, that have served , that are hurt. I completely support our military, but let's give our kids and grandkids another choice...college, and still support our military 100%, but not to send our kids to war. Let's really support our veterans , like we did back after WW2, where is the housing and college support, in a GI Bill, that pushed the middle class to the top in the 50's and 60's? Bernie Sanders supports a return to this.
The media attack, and slander , against Trump supporters, is not
acceptable. The media , attack and slander against Bernie supporters, not acceptable.
How can we all join forces? I know so much, of what we support is at odds. But let's continue, to combine, to defeat the status quo!
Bernie 2016
A Bernie supporter. I am not going to bash Trump voters. I understand their anger. At least Trump says what he means, and even attacked Fox.
I ask Trump supporters, to look at what they are paying for healthcare. Ask what they have to pay ,to get their kids through college. Ask them to look at the current defense budget. We are the top, in military might. I ask Trump supporters, to look at the young people that sign up, that have served , that are hurt. I completely support our military, but let's give our kids and grandkids another choice...college, and still support our military 100%, but not to send our kids to war. Let's really support our veterans , like we did back after WW2, where is the housing and college support, in a GI Bill, that pushed the middle class to the top in the 50's and 60's? Bernie Sanders supports a return to this.
The media attack, and slander , against Trump supporters, is not
acceptable. The media , attack and slander against Bernie supporters, not acceptable.
How can we all join forces? I know so much, of what we support is at odds. But let's continue, to combine, to defeat the status quo!
Bernie 2016
34
There is no way a Trump supporter would have anything to do with a communist. Get that through you head. We have had it with people like Bernie wanting to take every dime we make and give it to misfits to lazy to even try and take care of themselves.
Trump supporter's hate is directed at immigrants and Muslims. It's miss-guided nationalism meant to divide and conquer.
Sanders supporter's hate is directed at real, verifiable data points. The gap between the rich and poor is the worst it's been since 1929.
Bottom line, it's imaginary fear (Trump) vs a real and present threat to democracy (Sanders).
Sanders supporter's hate is directed at real, verifiable data points. The gap between the rich and poor is the worst it's been since 1929.
Bottom line, it's imaginary fear (Trump) vs a real and present threat to democracy (Sanders).
38
Bernie supporters believe America's problems can best be solved by addressing the structural inequalities built into our political system by the corrupting influence of corporate money. Trump supporters believe America's problems can be solved by building a wall along the Mexican border. Some comparison!
6
Bernie believes in one thing getting my and your money to spend the he wants. Forget that old communist.
The Sanders supporters are worried about about 99% of americans and those of Trump about a handful of terrorists.
8
We are talking about the voters that the politicians refer to as the stupid voters?
3
Democrats no longer stand for liberal values. I am a classic liberal and I am probably going to vote for Trump.
I've lost all hope in our Democratic party. They have become a bunch of pseudo-liberals can't be bothered to stand up for and protect the people who genuinely need protecting: oppressed women, apostates, intellectuals, cartoonists, novelists, and other true liberals.
Clinton, is too afraid to even say the words "Radical Islam". Like Obama, she too works tirelessly to protect a bunch of religious nuts from any criticism, which only emboldens the nuts, while simultaneously putting the rest of us in even greater danger.
We someone strong, who isn't afraid. Because there are times when silence is an accomplice to injustice.
I've lost all hope in our Democratic party. They have become a bunch of pseudo-liberals can't be bothered to stand up for and protect the people who genuinely need protecting: oppressed women, apostates, intellectuals, cartoonists, novelists, and other true liberals.
Clinton, is too afraid to even say the words "Radical Islam". Like Obama, she too works tirelessly to protect a bunch of religious nuts from any criticism, which only emboldens the nuts, while simultaneously putting the rest of us in even greater danger.
We someone strong, who isn't afraid. Because there are times when silence is an accomplice to injustice.
9
This conflation of two groups of supposedly "angry" voters obscures more than it reveals and does Sanders a disservice. Trump's voters are certainly angry. Bernie's campaign is different.
Sanders voters want change, not because they are "angry" but because this country is mired in corruption, skyrocketing inequality, and lack of accountability for those doing the exploiting. You can label it anger but that doesn't make it so. It's not hysteria, it's not niavete', it's not emotional backlash, and it's not a momentary eruption. I'm a Sanders voter. I'm not angry. I wish to see some integrity restored to my government and this country's institutions. I don't think you get there with candidates beholden to corporations. There is one man in the race who has literally decades of experience but who is not beholden to powerful, monied interests. He accomplished this rare feat because he has character, he has integrity, and he has guts. I like him. I admire him. I enjoy listening to him. I think he can govern. I'm not angry.
In fact, what I am is delighted to have a candidate who is positive, caring, optimistic and tough. Could the NYT be missing the real Sanders story?
Sanders voters want change, not because they are "angry" but because this country is mired in corruption, skyrocketing inequality, and lack of accountability for those doing the exploiting. You can label it anger but that doesn't make it so. It's not hysteria, it's not niavete', it's not emotional backlash, and it's not a momentary eruption. I'm a Sanders voter. I'm not angry. I wish to see some integrity restored to my government and this country's institutions. I don't think you get there with candidates beholden to corporations. There is one man in the race who has literally decades of experience but who is not beholden to powerful, monied interests. He accomplished this rare feat because he has character, he has integrity, and he has guts. I like him. I admire him. I enjoy listening to him. I think he can govern. I'm not angry.
In fact, what I am is delighted to have a candidate who is positive, caring, optimistic and tough. Could the NYT be missing the real Sanders story?
4
"'It makes me angry that this is how the country is,' he said. 'After 200 years we have to be politically correct? We can’t say the Pledge of Allegiance?'"
Is Mr. Nelson telling us that people in Iowa are no longer permitted to say the Pledge of Allegiance? Really? Is that happening in other places in the country, because if it is, it's sure not getting much coverage--which kind of leads me to believe that Mr. Nelson doesn't know what he's talking about.
Beyond that, it's amazing how ill-informed some Americans are. I'm sure other people believe as Mr. Nelson seems to do that the Pledge of Allegiance dates back to the early days of our country and the founding fathers. In fact, it was written and published in The Youth's Companion, a magazine, in 1892. And it was written by an avowed Socialist and minister, Francis Bellamy.
Is Mr. Nelson telling us that people in Iowa are no longer permitted to say the Pledge of Allegiance? Really? Is that happening in other places in the country, because if it is, it's sure not getting much coverage--which kind of leads me to believe that Mr. Nelson doesn't know what he's talking about.
Beyond that, it's amazing how ill-informed some Americans are. I'm sure other people believe as Mr. Nelson seems to do that the Pledge of Allegiance dates back to the early days of our country and the founding fathers. In fact, it was written and published in The Youth's Companion, a magazine, in 1892. And it was written by an avowed Socialist and minister, Francis Bellamy.
12
I assume Mr. Nelson was referring to the fact the Pledge of Allegiance is no longer allowed in schools, sporting events, etc.
@Annie
And the phrase "under God" wasn't original to the pledge, it was added in the 1950's.
And the phrase "under God" wasn't original to the pledge, it was added in the 1950's.
Both candidates are appealing to angry, disillusioned voters. The difference between the two is that Trump is appealing to the worst in people and Sanders is trying to appeal to the best in us.
15
So, according to the author, Trump supporters are angry at Washington.
Okay, I get that.
But according to the author, 30% of Sanders supporters are angry at Wash.
So who are they mad at, themselves?
Trump-Cruz 2016!
Okay, I get that.
But according to the author, 30% of Sanders supporters are angry at Wash.
So who are they mad at, themselves?
Trump-Cruz 2016!
1
Sanders and Trump are working class heroes. Among the candidates who else can say this? Clinton -no, Cruz , Rubio ,!no. In fact both parties have been running away from unions. Trump and Sanders seem to be rank and file favorites. Not that union members can swing an election but they and other outsiders could well do that.
3
It's fantasy to assume Trump will support labor unions. He's a real estate developer, remember?
Every move he makes is for himself, which explains his capricious relationships.
Every move he makes is for himself, which explains his capricious relationships.
If you are a union member and vote for Sanders you are voting for a big pay cut. His spending would require all of your pay check and more.
According to your headline, supporters of Trump and supporters of Sanders "share anger," but "direct it differently." Not to be nit-picking, but, if the anger is directed differently, can one accurately describe it as "shared"?
What this weaseling attempt at interpretation betrays is a total lack of comprehension in either instance. Rather than comprehension, it shows an utterly dumbfounded reaction which cannot be otherwise (ahem), because, if it were truly incisive it would shred the house of cards which passes for "conventional wisdom" -- a phrase I am putting in quotation marks because I seem to recall it from reading John Kenneth Galbraith.
What this weaseling attempt at interpretation betrays is a total lack of comprehension in either instance. Rather than comprehension, it shows an utterly dumbfounded reaction which cannot be otherwise (ahem), because, if it were truly incisive it would shred the house of cards which passes for "conventional wisdom" -- a phrase I am putting in quotation marks because I seem to recall it from reading John Kenneth Galbraith.
5
At last the Times is engaging with the substance of the campaign not hair color or religious background.
I am voting for Sanders because I dont trust Trump but let me tell you why Trump is right.
Trump is right on refugees, Merkel is ahistorical and naive
Trump is right on China, right on outsourcing, right on tariffs which will bring jobs home, make stuff cost more, give us the inflation we need, slow the global might of China and its world supremacy.
Trump is honest about Wall St. although he doesnt have a solution, he is right about Hilary being paid for.
Trump is honest about corruption in DC although he does not have a solution.
Trump is right to call an illegal an illegal. They are not undocumented, they have documents and they are not from the US.
Realize please that outside NY and Palo Alto and San Francisco and DC people have not seen any growth in their salaries. The greed of Wall St hit middle America. Obama did do Obamacare but other than that nothing has come these folks way. The Financial industry grows and its dominance destabilizes. The Fed only measures success by Wall St. It rains money on the gamblers and keeps the disaster that is free money going which directly increases income inequality. The regular economy is struggling back on its feet only to be destabilized further by crazy Fed policy. The economist including Krugman cheer on free trade and raining money on the gambler.
Meanwhile middle America has had enough. And with the PC.
I am voting for Sanders because I dont trust Trump but let me tell you why Trump is right.
Trump is right on refugees, Merkel is ahistorical and naive
Trump is right on China, right on outsourcing, right on tariffs which will bring jobs home, make stuff cost more, give us the inflation we need, slow the global might of China and its world supremacy.
Trump is honest about Wall St. although he doesnt have a solution, he is right about Hilary being paid for.
Trump is honest about corruption in DC although he does not have a solution.
Trump is right to call an illegal an illegal. They are not undocumented, they have documents and they are not from the US.
Realize please that outside NY and Palo Alto and San Francisco and DC people have not seen any growth in their salaries. The greed of Wall St hit middle America. Obama did do Obamacare but other than that nothing has come these folks way. The Financial industry grows and its dominance destabilizes. The Fed only measures success by Wall St. It rains money on the gamblers and keeps the disaster that is free money going which directly increases income inequality. The regular economy is struggling back on its feet only to be destabilized further by crazy Fed policy. The economist including Krugman cheer on free trade and raining money on the gambler.
Meanwhile middle America has had enough. And with the PC.
13
I would be willing to bet the Trump supporter, Mr. Nelson who works the night shift at a convenience store, has zero medical coverage, makes minimum wage or little more, and has never been prohibited from saying the pledge of allegiance. It's never occurred to him as a Reagan supporter, that Reagan gave immigrants a free pass. I'd also bet that should he lose his job, he'd be very amenable to govt. assistance. He, like so many Trump supporters, falls for the bluster of a bombastic serial narcissist, with no real policy plan other than "trust me, it'll be great, you'll love it (and me)".
I understand the anger, fear and frustration on both sides, the grievances are legitimate, but the entire republican line up scares the heck out of me. I love Bernie, Hillary not so much, but at least they're both sane, understand this is 2016 not 1916, the world is not flat, good government is not the problem, trickle down doesn't, separation of church & state, and that much of what's gone wrong the past 35 yrs. they have actual plans to fix. Anger and belligerence - republican catnip - solves nothing, and only begets more of the same.
I understand the anger, fear and frustration on both sides, the grievances are legitimate, but the entire republican line up scares the heck out of me. I love Bernie, Hillary not so much, but at least they're both sane, understand this is 2016 not 1916, the world is not flat, good government is not the problem, trickle down doesn't, separation of church & state, and that much of what's gone wrong the past 35 yrs. they have actual plans to fix. Anger and belligerence - republican catnip - solves nothing, and only begets more of the same.
10
I assure you Donald will never say we need some hope and change. Since obama there is little hope and very little change left.
What happens when the powers that be (Wall Street, the Pentagon, entrenched politicians, etc.) fear a effective change-agent? Knock him off from every side possible. Lots of anti-Sanders goings-on these week? When is Iowa and what happens if Sanders beats the Hillary? Stay tuned, folks.
10
I would love to see Sanders beats the Hillary. Then Donald will get at least 2 of every 3 votes. Trump wins. Sounds good
Oh you think? You righteous boys will explode when Karl Rove stops spending his Super PAC money to promote Bernie, $4.3 million in Dec. 2015 FEC filings, and starts coming after "the elderly socialist hippie who skipped Viet Nam war, is a dual national with Israel, and wants to rapidly increase our relations with Iran" Your hippie will be Bernt Toast.
"They are angry at a political system they see as rigged."
Let me fix that for you:
"They are angry at a political system that is rigged."
Really by any objective measure it is. Let's not kid ourselves.
Let me fix that for you:
"They are angry at a political system that is rigged."
Really by any objective measure it is. Let's not kid ourselves.
38
That line you quoted, is the proof of the NYTIMES being completely bought into and all in without any shame, for supporting the status quo. The status quo being an obliterated middle class, and a massive lower class peopled with the broken, the marginalized, the illegal immigrants and the third world problems they have brought with them. It is a neo-lib/neocon hybridization we are up against here, and NYTIMES are in on it.
Maybe if Sanders' voters had bothered leaving their dorms for the midterm elections when the House turned bright red, the system wouldn't be rigged? The Sanders' supporters need to occasionally look in the mirror and scream and rage at the image found there, as it is at least partially their own lack of participation in the "rigged" system previously that has brought us to this point. Blaming "the system" gets you no where as we have seen in Bernie's 26 year career in Congress.
In any event, the modern day Ethel Rosenberg is not being elected. And that's the end of it.
5
Bernard Sanders will be the next President of the United States. You can move to Canada.
13
Are you equating Bernie, a man who clearly loves this country and wants to rebuild it, with a traitor and a spy? If you are, god preserve us from Trump's tragically misinformed voters.
Yep, the angry dudes' way or the highway. Trump will kick people out of the country based on xenophobia and the Sanders' Sycophants will kick everyone out if they aren't pure and righteous enough? Demagogue much?
There are some other important differences and similarities. Both Sanders and Trump set up enemies to blame and rally against. Sanders' enemies are the financial robber barons, the billionaires, the corrupt campaign and political system, the bankers, etc. Trump sets up groups of people as targets, rapist, murderous Mexicans, Muslims, the cheating Chinese. Personally I think it is very dangerous to tap into people's biases and grievances against other people to gain power. I also think that justifying sexism and bigotry as just good raw anti pc freespeak is a terrible precedent for our culture. So with Trump, he is not only tapping the anger, but also the hate. That is a very important distinction.
119
Paraphrasing Warren Buffet -- class warfare is real, and his class (the very, very, very rich) is winning. Trump sets up targets who are just scapegoats -- Sanders targets what is really wrong with the society.
And Bernie's not drumming up "hate" for those with money? For those who run businesses? For those who are not part of the protected minority groups?
Please! His posse is full of those who hate the white, middle and upper middle class people.
Please! His posse is full of those who hate the white, middle and upper middle class people.
1
I hear a good amount of hate coming from Bernie as well. He hates anyone who works in banking. That would include my husband and my son. I resent such hate speak about an industry that employees hundreds of thousands. It is just as absurd to blame every problem in our country on banks as it is to blame it on immigrants. The difference then can only be that you consider it ok to hate people in finance.
1
Bernie has many things Hillary and Trump lack, but the most important is that he has a large committed grassroots army of supporters of all ages and genders whom he asks and expects to stay active in a long-term 'Political Revolution Fighting For the Soul of Democracy.'
Hillary, Trump, even Obama? They don't do that. Why? Because we'd try to help get things done that they only PROMISE, just to get votes. They really want us out of their way.
Bernie Sanders will not treat us like chips in a high stakes electoral numbers game, throwing us under the bus after winning with financial backing of Wall St. crooks, then putting those same banksters into vital cabinet positions.
We've got our mojo back, now that we've seen in Bernie what authenticity, honesty, and real PURPOSE looks like. We have our purpose back too, and talk about Power! People Power is what will enable Bernie to not just win but get the enormous task underway to restore a government of, by, and for the people. It's our country and we want a hand, not just a vote, in running it.
We're going to do the hard work of ushering in change with our Public-Public Partnership instead of the current Public-Private Corporate Partnerships we now have. That's what the Establishment REALLY fears - US! They don't want us taking their place at our own table.
Join the Political Revolution!
Bernie Sanders, a People's President - For the Common Good
Hillary, Trump, even Obama? They don't do that. Why? Because we'd try to help get things done that they only PROMISE, just to get votes. They really want us out of their way.
Bernie Sanders will not treat us like chips in a high stakes electoral numbers game, throwing us under the bus after winning with financial backing of Wall St. crooks, then putting those same banksters into vital cabinet positions.
We've got our mojo back, now that we've seen in Bernie what authenticity, honesty, and real PURPOSE looks like. We have our purpose back too, and talk about Power! People Power is what will enable Bernie to not just win but get the enormous task underway to restore a government of, by, and for the people. It's our country and we want a hand, not just a vote, in running it.
We're going to do the hard work of ushering in change with our Public-Public Partnership instead of the current Public-Private Corporate Partnerships we now have. That's what the Establishment REALLY fears - US! They don't want us taking their place at our own table.
Join the Political Revolution!
Bernie Sanders, a People's President - For the Common Good
16
Maybe the NYT has access to factual information supplied by the Saunders campaign (but probably not) supporting a following by an overwhelming number of white males. My experience here in Republican male dominated backward moving NC is that everyone I know supporting Sen. Saunders is female. He will get my wholehearted vote in the primaries in my state. I find it fascinating that respectable media continues to try to square peg Sen Saunders into a round hole. Is it so hard to admit he is a legitimate candidate supported by an increasingly diverse population?
7
The white male argument has been and is way overrated. The discontent expressed by American citizens across the board has very little to do with white males and everything to do with social iniquity and uncontrolled immigration. Every politician is lying with the exception of Bernie Sanders. If Bernie Sanders adopts Trump's stand on immigration I believe that he could win with a landslide.
5
Great photo from Todd Heisler--the anxiety, the hope, the eager and impassioned are all right there in one photo.
And Mr. Holihan is spot on. Income inequality will not last long term no matter what. We've seen time and again that it doesn't last. The economy will right itself whether the ultra-rich like it or not. It can happen softly and sanely or not. Sanders now so we don't end up with a Chavez or a Castro later.
And Mr. Holihan is spot on. Income inequality will not last long term no matter what. We've seen time and again that it doesn't last. The economy will right itself whether the ultra-rich like it or not. It can happen softly and sanely or not. Sanders now so we don't end up with a Chavez or a Castro later.
3
Sorry, there is definitely a big difference between being MAD (translate to "nuts," as in mad dog) and being ANGRY (translate to "vociferously intent upon ending immorality in government," as in angry citizen.)
2
Angry voters are a flash in the pan who hardly ever stick it out for the three elections over a minimum of six years that it takes to redirect public policy at the federal level in the US.
4
Sanders and Trump are far more similar than different. Yes, an extreme capitalist v socialist but listen to them talk and you will see they are hugely similar compared to old school career politicians.
Again, compare them not to each other but to all the other candidates.
A Sanders v Trump election would be a win for the USA. Whoever won would at least give us a chance to radically change the defective system.
Again, compare them not to each other but to all the other candidates.
A Sanders v Trump election would be a win for the USA. Whoever won would at least give us a chance to radically change the defective system.
35
@Sanders and Trumplestiltskin more similar than different? That's a dangerously oversimplified view of those men, to say the least.
Aside from Trumplestiltskin's dishonesty, even when confronted with it, he's also a hate provoking bigot. Sanders is the exact opposite. That's a matter of public record.
1-31-16@2:07 am et
Aside from Trumplestiltskin's dishonesty, even when confronted with it, he's also a hate provoking bigot. Sanders is the exact opposite. That's a matter of public record.
1-31-16@2:07 am et
2
I would not hesitate to vote for Trump based on his message alone. However, I can't get past his antics. Granted I've not read enough about his background, & all that come to mind is failures, bankruptcies, whatever went on in Scottland with the golf course, & the fact that he wouldn't be here were not for his lineage. I wish it weren't so because otherwise, he'd get my vote.
Yep! but one would have you sharing your wealth with all.We do our share by paying taxes don't we?
I know it's politically anathema to say this, but the ticket I'd most like to see would be a Sanders/Trump or Trump/Sanders one. Talk about putting the foundational tenets of freedom and democracy to the test. Talk about dynamic, talk about contrast, talk about revolutionary and breaking out of the status quo.
Both of them have lived and have some real world experiences to draw on, but each has done so in different realms and conceivably bring the benefits of both to bear for the common good, egos and political ideologies aside.
The thought of such a pairing would kind of remind me of what the meeting between God and Satan (or Satan and God) must have been like when they got together to decide the fate of Job. It was a miserable one at first, but on the positive side, when the trail was all over for Job, he got everything back, and more and better to boot.
Both of them have lived and have some real world experiences to draw on, but each has done so in different realms and conceivably bring the benefits of both to bear for the common good, egos and political ideologies aside.
The thought of such a pairing would kind of remind me of what the meeting between God and Satan (or Satan and God) must have been like when they got together to decide the fate of Job. It was a miserable one at first, but on the positive side, when the trail was all over for Job, he got everything back, and more and better to boot.
2
Supporters of both Sanders and Trump are fed up with having our country run by and for Wall Street elites, so it should be of great interest that former financial regulator William K. Black has just announced the formation of the Bank Whistleblowers' Group. They have published a set of proposals that would "restore the rule of law to Wall Street." Almost all of these actions could be taken during the first 60 days of a presidential administration without any action by Congress. The proposals can be read here: http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2016/01/explanation-bank-whistleblowe...
It's up to voters who are fed up with the lack of criminal indictments for Wall Street fraudsters to make sure that the candidates see, consider, and respond to the Bank Whistleblowers' Group proposals. And for that matter, NYT subscribers should ask the Times to publish them in full.
It's up to voters who are fed up with the lack of criminal indictments for Wall Street fraudsters to make sure that the candidates see, consider, and respond to the Bank Whistleblowers' Group proposals. And for that matter, NYT subscribers should ask the Times to publish them in full.
2
There's a vast difference between anger and frustration. Democrats are frustrated that a president for whom they twice voted has been unable to make meaningful headway, his "hope and change" message from 2008 now a relic, worn away by the truculence of a Congress antagonistic to him by race or politics or governing philosophy. Republicans, on the other hand, have come to hate an America that they have largely, for generations, viewed as an entitlement quite their own, one cut up (by Democrats) and apportioned to those for whom they have never cherished sympathy or compassion. Republican rank-and-file voters generally fail to take into consideration elements other than race. Many refuse to acknowledge that their Republican party, beginning with Ronald Reagan, has crippled unions and watered down the collective bargaining process (labor) in favor of management (capital) right under their noses. White workers can't get past the idea that those for whom they invested their present and future have had their anger co-opted by state legislatures and Congress who exist only to represent the vested interests (lobbyists and corporations) to whom they are beholden. They are indifferent to a Supreme Court that rendered them impotent (Citizens United) by legitimizing a political process to which they are excluded. They refuse to believe their grievances are self-inflicted by their ill-considered choices. Democrats are willing to work for change. Republicans want to blow it all up.
5
Statistically speaking, Bernie's Bros sat out the mid terms when we got the bright red Congress we now have, so maybe they ought to be screaming in their mirrors at their own lazy, unpatriotic response to past elections. But they will blame "that woman"......I guess their mommies were strict.
Is it 'anger' or is it 'passion'?
I passionately believe that most in this country are not getting a fair shake, whether it's to do with how so many full-time workers are relegated to abject poverty; or how it takes students decades to pay off their college debt; or how homelessness legislation has made sleeping illegal; or how citizens continue to be poisoned with impunity simply by breathing or by drinking so-called "drinking water"--all of which I consider to be human rights violations.
Add in how our healthcare dollars are siphoned off to prop up insurance and pharmaceutical corporations; or how vastly the inequality gap has widened; or how rarely well-placed financial criminals face prosecution; or how the only employment option for many is a need to put their lives on the line in senseless wars; or how we are selling off our country's assets (real estate, factories, even our photographic history) to foreign nationals....I could go on.
I would qualify my feelings more as "passionate dismay" than merely anger. I have watched through a lifetime the decay in all areas of regular people's normal lives, while a few at the top get enriched beyond all reasonable measure.
The underlying theme of all of it is: WHO should our economy be FOR?
Senator Sanders is the only candidate with a consistent answer to that question, which is why he has my primary vote. If I have to, I'll vote for Secretary Clinton in the general, but will have to hold my nose.
SANDERS 2016!!!
I passionately believe that most in this country are not getting a fair shake, whether it's to do with how so many full-time workers are relegated to abject poverty; or how it takes students decades to pay off their college debt; or how homelessness legislation has made sleeping illegal; or how citizens continue to be poisoned with impunity simply by breathing or by drinking so-called "drinking water"--all of which I consider to be human rights violations.
Add in how our healthcare dollars are siphoned off to prop up insurance and pharmaceutical corporations; or how vastly the inequality gap has widened; or how rarely well-placed financial criminals face prosecution; or how the only employment option for many is a need to put their lives on the line in senseless wars; or how we are selling off our country's assets (real estate, factories, even our photographic history) to foreign nationals....I could go on.
I would qualify my feelings more as "passionate dismay" than merely anger. I have watched through a lifetime the decay in all areas of regular people's normal lives, while a few at the top get enriched beyond all reasonable measure.
The underlying theme of all of it is: WHO should our economy be FOR?
Senator Sanders is the only candidate with a consistent answer to that question, which is why he has my primary vote. If I have to, I'll vote for Secretary Clinton in the general, but will have to hold my nose.
SANDERS 2016!!!
15
Yeah. It's rigged. The Haves are not going to share. That's part of what made them become a Have in the first place. The unwashed masses got that message and Bernie and Donald are the only rational choices. At least on that issue.
1
It's difficult to see how Trump will help the middle and poorer classes of people because he hasn't laid out a coherent message about what he would do other than stop illegal immigration, which has already slowed to a trickle and bring back US manufacturing. While it would be great if he could do that, how exactly would he accomplish that, except through chest thumping and tantrums?
3
Trump doesn't have to accomplish anything. Nobody's going to do anything. Haven't you been paying attention over the past 20 years? At least Bernie will point to a change of direction… but I wouldn't expect him to make it happen. The world needs a massive transformation of spirit if we will survive.
I'd prefer Sanders, but will take Trump. Both seem to genuinely be in it for the good of the country.
The others are simply politicians.
My ancestors served in the US military, saw combat, and worked menial jobs. They played by some very tough rules, and they built this country. Sanders and Trump are the only 2 who actually respect their efforts.
I don't see them as polar opposites and most voters don't, either.
The others are simply politicians.
My ancestors served in the US military, saw combat, and worked menial jobs. They played by some very tough rules, and they built this country. Sanders and Trump are the only 2 who actually respect their efforts.
I don't see them as polar opposites and most voters don't, either.
38
Sanders is a proud Socialist. You support him? Your Ancestors are rolling over in their graves.
@Honeybee,
Perhaps you don't see them as polar opposites, but please don't assume others see things through your eyes.
1-31-16@2:02 am et
Perhaps you don't see them as polar opposites, but please don't assume others see things through your eyes.
1-31-16@2:02 am et
1
Bernie Sanders has consistently worked for a core set of values his entire life. Donald Trump has no core values except money and notoriety for himself. His actual political positions change as frequently as the beautiful women he buys and discards when he gets tired of them.
1
Brad Nelson, the Trump fan quoted at length in this article, is 50, and he caucused for Ronald Reagan in 1980? You might want to check that. He would have been 14 in 1980.
9
Yes, both Sanders and Trump have a mob on their hands. Angry, volatile, unwilling to accept any other outcome than that their leader be victorious. It does not bode well for the country.
3
Untrue; I'm a Sanders supporter, and I will happily vote for Clinton in the general election, if it comes to that. Enthusiasm for a refreshingly honest and consistent candidate is not the same as being "unwilling to accept" any other outcome.
I love how the 19yo envisions utopia under Sanders and the 50yo sees the reality of what Trump is taking a stand for. They really need to raise the voting age to 30.
4
Only if the raise the war fighting age to 30.
Question: Is Bernie Sanders a nativist? Is he against a pathway to citizenship?
Demanding respect for our nation and her legal path to entry shouldn't be earning anyone insults, only praise...Donald Trump is the only candidate who believes our nation and her laws should be respected...end of story.
"Mr. Sanders’s supporters worried about the growing inequality in wealth and income; Mr. Trump’s worried about terrorists coming across the border."
And there's the critical difference. Income inequality is a real phenomenon and Sanders has identified as an engine of our problems. His supporters, mostly younger and educated, agree.
Terrorists sneaking across our borders is largely a fantasy, but Trump exploits the measurable lack of education and bigotry of his supporters for political effect.
One is a genuine politician proposing real solutions to real problems.
The other is a huckster trading in the fantasyland paranoia of the unhinged American right.
And there's the critical difference. Income inequality is a real phenomenon and Sanders has identified as an engine of our problems. His supporters, mostly younger and educated, agree.
Terrorists sneaking across our borders is largely a fantasy, but Trump exploits the measurable lack of education and bigotry of his supporters for political effect.
One is a genuine politician proposing real solutions to real problems.
The other is a huckster trading in the fantasyland paranoia of the unhinged American right.
10
When fantasy becomes reality, as it already has, one would think you would have caught a clue...
Every election cycle I have heard the same rhetoric from the media - that the voters are angry and they want change. That propped up various third-party candidates in the past: John Anderson, Ross Perot, Ralph Nader, and lesser known mavericks a=such as Pat Buchanan, et al.
I support Bernie Sanders and I think he's the best qualified candidate to bring about a change in the corrupt system. However, come November, it's always been the establishment candidate that has got elected in previous years. I don't see any reason why this year would be different. Welcome, President Clinton. I guess can live with that.
I support Bernie Sanders and I think he's the best qualified candidate to bring about a change in the corrupt system. However, come November, it's always been the establishment candidate that has got elected in previous years. I don't see any reason why this year would be different. Welcome, President Clinton. I guess can live with that.
42
Full disclosure: I support Trump.
However, I understand why my fellow Americans on the Left support Sanders and I hope that he, not Clinton, wins the Democratic nomination. Enough of the Good Ol' Boys Club in DC whose members are more interested in obeying the will of their corporate masters than in fulfilling their oaths of office.
The problem for Sanders is the DNC's allotment of super delegates, most of whom are backing Clinton. From what I understand, Sanders could win in the primaries and still lose at the convention because of this rigged end run around the will of the Democratic base. And imo, that's just plain wrong.
However, I understand why my fellow Americans on the Left support Sanders and I hope that he, not Clinton, wins the Democratic nomination. Enough of the Good Ol' Boys Club in DC whose members are more interested in obeying the will of their corporate masters than in fulfilling their oaths of office.
The problem for Sanders is the DNC's allotment of super delegates, most of whom are backing Clinton. From what I understand, Sanders could win in the primaries and still lose at the convention because of this rigged end run around the will of the Democratic base. And imo, that's just plain wrong.
13
I prefer not to settle for another Clinton sorry.
I will take my chances with the GOP..like I did last time
and never regretted my choice even in Romney/Ryan
didn't win.
HC is our past..and I don't want to go back.
I am more interested in our future.
I will take my chances with the GOP..like I did last time
and never regretted my choice even in Romney/Ryan
didn't win.
HC is our past..and I don't want to go back.
I am more interested in our future.
Joyce, it's not just about who is the President, more importantly, it is about the appointments and nominations they make. The right, backed with a right-wing Congress, may nominate judges, supreme court justices and cabinet members who will act in direct support of corporate American and Christian extremists, despite what the law says. Unless you are very wealthy, or an extremist Christian, you will fare better under a Democratic administration.
Whoever wins, the mechanisms that are filling Congress with "representatives" who do not represent has to be changed.
Our guy in Colorado is an empty vessel for the GOP and fundamentalists telling him what to do and he supplies the vapid boilerplate to people who cannot get rid of him.
Gerrymandering and money in politics absolutely will have to be addressed to get anywhere near actual representation for our democracy to function properly.
Our guy in Colorado is an empty vessel for the GOP and fundamentalists telling him what to do and he supplies the vapid boilerplate to people who cannot get rid of him.
Gerrymandering and money in politics absolutely will have to be addressed to get anywhere near actual representation for our democracy to function properly.
2
I am mind numbingly bored to death of doublespeaking political speeches.
I will vote for Bernie Sanders ( Hillary Clinton if she is the nominee because she is competent and not a republican)
because he is a straight talker, he does not hide his agenda, or pander.
I agree with his message of bringing equality back to the middle class.
Great. Agreed. Done.
I will vote for Bernie Sanders ( Hillary Clinton if she is the nominee because she is competent and not a republican)
because he is a straight talker, he does not hide his agenda, or pander.
I agree with his message of bringing equality back to the middle class.
Great. Agreed. Done.
14
if only politics were as simple and practical as your comment
So, in a nutshell;
Trump supporters are older breadwinners who have been there, done that and are tired of getting nothing but a cheap T-Shirt.
Sanders supporters are young, inexperienced, pie-in-the-sky dreamers who think life, society and especially government owes them a silver platter to live on.
Trump supporters are older breadwinners who have been there, done that and are tired of getting nothing but a cheap T-Shirt.
Sanders supporters are young, inexperienced, pie-in-the-sky dreamers who think life, society and especially government owes them a silver platter to live on.
10
Yes, inexperienced but with at least a token of perhaps fading idealism and, albeit, naive sense of 'right and wrong'.
The takeaway here is that Bernie Sanders supporters are angry at the system, and Donald Trump supporters are angry at people.
Which is why I try to stay as far away as possible from Trump supporters.
Which is why I try to stay as far away as possible from Trump supporters.
9
Yeah, because believing that America and her historic values should be respected is such a bad thing :-(
It's long past time that economic inequality, and the "trickle down" policies that have exacerbated it, has come to the public consciousness, thanks in large part to Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. But I'm afraid it's still not obvious enough to many working class voters who are easily fooled into believing that it's immigrants, or "welfare queens" who are holding them down. And they are further blinded by fears about their guns being taken away, or forced to engage in gay marriage, or other wedge issues, to the extent that they will trade their economic security for always-broken promises to "make things right".
Sanders needs to break through this denial if he is to win these people to his cause, and win the Presidency. He needs to show that Trump, while his message resonates with millions of disenfranchised voters, is a snake oil salesman, promising everything, but delivering nothing. Just look at all the broken promises he's left in his wake in his business dealings! How can anyone believe that he'll do what he says? In contrast, look at Bernie's record over decades, one that shows he does what he says he's going to do, or at least gives everything to the fight.
In the end, you have to ask yourself: Do I want someone who tells me what I want to hear, but doesn't provide it? Or, do I want someone who will tell me the truth, and then live up to it? There's only one candidate who fits that last question - Bernie Sanders.
Sanders needs to break through this denial if he is to win these people to his cause, and win the Presidency. He needs to show that Trump, while his message resonates with millions of disenfranchised voters, is a snake oil salesman, promising everything, but delivering nothing. Just look at all the broken promises he's left in his wake in his business dealings! How can anyone believe that he'll do what he says? In contrast, look at Bernie's record over decades, one that shows he does what he says he's going to do, or at least gives everything to the fight.
In the end, you have to ask yourself: Do I want someone who tells me what I want to hear, but doesn't provide it? Or, do I want someone who will tell me the truth, and then live up to it? There's only one candidate who fits that last question - Bernie Sanders.
10
Were I still the young hair-on-fire liberal that supported George McGovern, I would be incensed that the insiders of my party had gotten together in one of those smoke-filled rooms and had decided to hand our nomination to the corrupt Hillary.
To tell me that she has earned anything like our support while charging foreign nations and businesses for access to the U.S. gov't would have kept me up at night steaming.
To tell me that she has earned anything like our support while charging foreign nations and businesses for access to the U.S. gov't would have kept me up at night steaming.
7
The difference, of course, is that the anger in Bernie's camp is directed at those who, it can be proven, gamed the system and caused catastrophic casualties to our political and economic well being. Whereas, Trump supporters are angry at stereotypes that have more to do with skin color then any factual basis of cause and effect. You don't have to imagine the harm done to the 99% by the 1%. You have to have a wild imagination to conceive of terrorists invading our country and the poor causing all the economic troubles faced by middle income Americans. One group deals with reality while the other group would vote in a reality TV star as commander in chief. The anger is real in both cases but only one group can make a logical case for their anger.
2
There is a commonality between disenchanted voters on the right and voters on the left. Both groups feel that they have been ignored and short changed by the powerful interest groups they believe control the political process.
The disenchanted right have been socialized to reject government as overreaching and ineffectual. But they understand that in a prosperous country their needs i.e. monetary well being have not been met.
The disenchanted left believe that government has been hijacked by business interest groups....the rich get richer while the middle class and poor suffer.
Both groups agree that it is time to give governance back to the people...but they have widely divergent notions of what that means. And our political party system is at a crossroads.
I hope the conservative justices on the Supreme Court taken note of the effects of their decision on Citizen's United.
The disenchanted right have been socialized to reject government as overreaching and ineffectual. But they understand that in a prosperous country their needs i.e. monetary well being have not been met.
The disenchanted left believe that government has been hijacked by business interest groups....the rich get richer while the middle class and poor suffer.
Both groups agree that it is time to give governance back to the people...but they have widely divergent notions of what that means. And our political party system is at a crossroads.
I hope the conservative justices on the Supreme Court taken note of the effects of their decision on Citizen's United.
73
It always amazes me when people attribute anger against business interests only to the left.
The groundswell of anger coming from the right is aimed primarily at the same target. Big business interests controlling the nation.
As for Citizens United, I challenge you to produce evidence of impact on the electoral process. The collapse of the "establishment" GOP candidates clearly demonstrates that the PACs have had virtually no impact, perhaps even hurt their candidates.
The groundswell of anger coming from the right is aimed primarily at the same target. Big business interests controlling the nation.
As for Citizens United, I challenge you to produce evidence of impact on the electoral process. The collapse of the "establishment" GOP candidates clearly demonstrates that the PACs have had virtually no impact, perhaps even hurt their candidates.
The difference is the conservatives want to save America, and the Democrats are hell bent on sending us into Communism.
The right wing anger towards the business interests is a relatively new phenomenon. Remember the original tea party groups were mostly funded by the Koch brothers. The thing is that advertising and propaganda over many decades has convinced a large segment of the conservative movement that government is inherently bad.... As for proof that unrestricted large sums of money affecting the electoral process one only needs to note the effect (and cost) of running political advertising to note that $ influences politics. That does not mean that every ad is effective. If you read about election campaigns you will see that most national politicians have to spend a great deal of their time raising funds for their next election. This not only wastes their time but makes them indebted to their large donors. In this specific election we see a new wrinkle on the electoral process....Donald Trump has been able to use the media including the social media very effectively and has generated a great deal of free publicity. He has to some extent been able to turn the tables on candidates with large political war chests like Jeb Bush. I believe this is a first. We will see if it is unique. In the meantime money greases the wheels of politics....and Citizens United allows a few plutocrats to secretly fund and support their special guy or gal.
1
Huh. Sanders is 'angry.' Sort of like Trump. Trump and Bernie are angry. A lot of similarities between Sanders and Trump. Good point. Good article. Well done.
1
An attempt to make Sanders supporters feel like the lunatics who support Trump? Disguised as an analysis? There are way too many differences between the supporters of Sanders and those who wish to participate in reality TV events. Not a good try....
9
That's what I was trying to say.
People need to stop saying, "I'm for him/her because he's going to do this or he's going to bring back America blah blah blah". "He" is hardly able to do anything. A President usually is a lame duck from the get go. It is next to impossible to get anything done in Washington, no matter who it is. Stop putting such expectations on one man, and then throw tomatoes at him because he didn't fulfill your wishes.
2
It's impossible without a willing Congress, which is why we citizens must vote in ALL elections.
Local politicians become state politicians who become national politicians...get it?
Local politicians become state politicians who become national politicians...get it?
3
Sanders is a tough old bird who as a kid would have been a good guy to have on your side in a fight. Looking at his Wikipedia page or watching him in a debate, it immediately jumps out at you that he wears his heart on his sleeve and never has met with up with a liberal cause in his life he didn’t like. I knew a half-a-dozen guys just like him when I was growing up. The difference is that almost all of them eventually shook off the heavyweight socialist stuff and went on to become accountants, lawyers, dentists and doctors concerned with their tax brackets and getting their kids into Ivy League schools, while he still looks like a guy with a placard in his hand on his way to a prorest.
This is a bit of a sadness because the guys I knew who escaped their fevered social consciences almost all went on to do good and useful things with their lives that, besides contributing to their own pocketbooks and their family’s well being, also did other people considerable good, albeit not very much in a political way; while the guys I knew who remained hardcore political leftists all their lives frequently ended up drifting around doing neither themselves or anybody else much good.
Sanders has done good things with his life, and I wish him the best, but looking at him today is a reminder to me of the fact that growing up Socialist in the forties and fifties was a dead end for lots of guys and that staying far away from politics as an adult was frequently the better and wiser course.
This is a bit of a sadness because the guys I knew who escaped their fevered social consciences almost all went on to do good and useful things with their lives that, besides contributing to their own pocketbooks and their family’s well being, also did other people considerable good, albeit not very much in a political way; while the guys I knew who remained hardcore political leftists all their lives frequently ended up drifting around doing neither themselves or anybody else much good.
Sanders has done good things with his life, and I wish him the best, but looking at him today is a reminder to me of the fact that growing up Socialist in the forties and fifties was a dead end for lots of guys and that staying far away from politics as an adult was frequently the better and wiser course.
3
"...while he still looks like a guy with a placard in his hand on his way to a protest."
"Sanders has done good things with his life, and I wish him the best, but looking at him today is a reminder to me of the fact that growing up Socialist in the forties and fifties was a dead end for lots of guys and that staying far away from politics as an adult was frequently the better and wiser course."
Appearance can be deceiving... Bernie Sanders is a former (highly successful) mayor, a long-serving US Congressman, a current United States Senator, and now a leading candidate for President of the United States. The fact that his appearance is (apparently) reminiscient of "the guys I knew who remained hardcore political leftists all their lives..." is not relevant. Sanders has a reasonable chance of becoming the next US President, and regardless he has already had a major disruptive effect on American political discourse. By almost any definition (besides accumulated personal wealth), he has been considerably more successful than any accountant, lawyer, dentist or doctor...
"Sanders has done good things with his life, and I wish him the best, but looking at him today is a reminder to me of the fact that growing up Socialist in the forties and fifties was a dead end for lots of guys and that staying far away from politics as an adult was frequently the better and wiser course."
Appearance can be deceiving... Bernie Sanders is a former (highly successful) mayor, a long-serving US Congressman, a current United States Senator, and now a leading candidate for President of the United States. The fact that his appearance is (apparently) reminiscient of "the guys I knew who remained hardcore political leftists all their lives..." is not relevant. Sanders has a reasonable chance of becoming the next US President, and regardless he has already had a major disruptive effect on American political discourse. By almost any definition (besides accumulated personal wealth), he has been considerably more successful than any accountant, lawyer, dentist or doctor...
A. Stanton **** So all us 'Lefties' never did anybody any good. When are you ever going to have an observation that makes any sense? And stop talking about yourself please. I could call Sanders many things, but "tough old bird". Where does this come from? I think you watch too many car insurance commercials.
1
Let's hope the baby isnt tossed with the bathwaters.
"Bernie Sanders and Trump Voters Share Anger"
Huh? I'm not angry at all; i just feel that Bernie is an authentic public servant, hardworking, with good judgment.
Huh? I'm not angry at all; i just feel that Bernie is an authentic public servant, hardworking, with good judgment.
8
It all comes down to an oversupply of labor, which cannot be fixed by...wait for it...importing more and more labor over decades and decades, until the labor market is so saturated that wages have been driven downwards for generations.
Both political parties are completely out of touch with the average American.
One cares only about the rich, the other cares only about the poor.
Neither cares a whit about the middle class, who get nothing but the bill.
Both political parties are completely out of touch with the average American.
One cares only about the rich, the other cares only about the poor.
Neither cares a whit about the middle class, who get nothing but the bill.
4
Will corporations continue their rule? Time will tell.
Bernie folks outraged by ANY comparison to Trump in 3..2..1......
Seriously, #BernieBros, the article is comparing some of the SUPPORTERS of these candidates, and not the candidates themselves.
Seriously, #BernieBros, the article is comparing some of the SUPPORTERS of these candidates, and not the candidates themselves.
4
Trump can't be bought? Trump is all about money. He makes very few statements that include how wealthy he is. He is always looking to get more. And, he was not a good businessman. The Saudi prince (Trump used in a photoshopped picture to diss Megyn Kelly) who is part owner of Fox bailed Trump out when he was on the verge bankruptcy, not once but twice and maybe even another time.
It is obvious that most of Trump supporters are poorly educated but what about the ones who are educated? One would hope that those folks could read, think critically and make inferences from facts. But alas, education does not make one smart.
Being respectful of differences and the right to choose whomever one wishes to vote for, I have, until now been reluctant to call these people dumb. But being PC is no longer respected, so I will. Idiots.
The NYT also might consider being at least a tad more straightforward and honest when describing that particular candidate. He has set the tone and propped himself up as the poster boy so, apparently, he won't mind. (Haha)
It is obvious that most of Trump supporters are poorly educated but what about the ones who are educated? One would hope that those folks could read, think critically and make inferences from facts. But alas, education does not make one smart.
Being respectful of differences and the right to choose whomever one wishes to vote for, I have, until now been reluctant to call these people dumb. But being PC is no longer respected, so I will. Idiots.
The NYT also might consider being at least a tad more straightforward and honest when describing that particular candidate. He has set the tone and propped himself up as the poster boy so, apparently, he won't mind. (Haha)
7
Calling those who are passionate about living in a functional democracy "angry" is a convenient meme to justify an untenable status quo and mariginalise those working for a more just nation. All quests for change require impatience with the injustices of the present. The foundation fathers were angry, the Civil Rights leaders, and the Suffragettes because all could no longer abide systemic disenfranchisement. Today, the vast majority of Americans are similarly disenfranchised, as reflected in a recent Princeton study revealing that the average American has no impact on.
The authors, having found that regular Americans have virtually no impact on the legislative process wrote: "...we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organisations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America's claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened."
Unfortunately (though predictably) the NYTIMES has just endorsed one of those oligarchs for the Democratic nomination.
The authors, having found that regular Americans have virtually no impact on the legislative process wrote: "...we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organisations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America's claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened."
Unfortunately (though predictably) the NYTIMES has just endorsed one of those oligarchs for the Democratic nomination.
75
My own viewpoints about 2016 political main events are not that much different those of this article. Yes, people are indeed angry about the business as usual ways of doing things in Washington, D.C. and at Wall Street, when fierce anger was accumulated and focused towards the latter, in particular.
The progressive electorates, this time, have acted where their mouths were in order to make radical changes on the political arena towards an open-minded and reason-based transformation from the bottom up. The conservative electorates, on the other hand, equally if not more laud and strong, want to make changes on the dying system. The difference is the latter’s changes are limited to only reviving the dying but not to radically transform it into something completely new. But the real changes are what “Justin Holihan, 31, a paramedic who supports Mr. Sanders, said he feared that growing economic inequality might pitch the country toward either revolution or a police state.”
When the changes become too limited to be practical and meaningful, the old system will not die an orderly death but may struggle back to haunt us again.
Revolution is closely connected with contradictions in those economic situations where no one has any means to get rid of the crises brought forth as a result of those contradictions. New crises make new revolution inevitable.
The progressive electorates, this time, have acted where their mouths were in order to make radical changes on the political arena towards an open-minded and reason-based transformation from the bottom up. The conservative electorates, on the other hand, equally if not more laud and strong, want to make changes on the dying system. The difference is the latter’s changes are limited to only reviving the dying but not to radically transform it into something completely new. But the real changes are what “Justin Holihan, 31, a paramedic who supports Mr. Sanders, said he feared that growing economic inequality might pitch the country toward either revolution or a police state.”
When the changes become too limited to be practical and meaningful, the old system will not die an orderly death but may struggle back to haunt us again.
Revolution is closely connected with contradictions in those economic situations where no one has any means to get rid of the crises brought forth as a result of those contradictions. New crises make new revolution inevitable.
1
It's unfortunate Sanders gets lumped in with Trump. They couldn't be more different. They are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. Sanders has been in politics for decades and is far more mainstream. He appeals to people who want a fair economic system and a cautious foreign policy.
Sanders appeals to our best instincts. Trump appeals to our worst.
Trump's supporters are angry at politicians and immigrants. He directs the rage of the uneducated white man's failure to get ahead towards scapegoats. Sanders focuses on the oligarchy, the bought and paid for ruling class that is responsible for income inequality. He has actual ideas how to fix America. Trump not so much. Or at all.
Of the 2, Sanders is much more likely to put together a winning coalition. There aren't enough angry white men in America to make Trump president.
Sanders appeals to our best instincts. Trump appeals to our worst.
Trump's supporters are angry at politicians and immigrants. He directs the rage of the uneducated white man's failure to get ahead towards scapegoats. Sanders focuses on the oligarchy, the bought and paid for ruling class that is responsible for income inequality. He has actual ideas how to fix America. Trump not so much. Or at all.
Of the 2, Sanders is much more likely to put together a winning coalition. There aren't enough angry white men in America to make Trump president.
19
The alternatives that Cruz proposes as a replacement for Obamacare have been largely disproven over the last decade. There are only about six major medical insurance companies left in the marketplace. The plans they offer are fairly uniform from state to state but of course vary in accordance with the hospital and Doctor costs in a particular state. Across state commerce would only allow a company to reduce standards of care to the lowest allowable level.
3
The enthusiastic crowds that both the Orange One and Bernie draw this cycle as well as the ones that Obama drew in '08 are proof that the American spirit of originality and fairness are still simmering in our population. Obama's failing was that he did not use the bully pulpit he won to continue the conversation with us. It is certain that Bernie will not make this mistake and probable that the Orange One wouldn't.
Meanwhile, the elite continue to withdraw from American life and live in their own cloistered communities continuing to believe that they can buy the influence that they once had. Karl Rove's failure last election cycle and the elite's desperate failure to stop the Orange One or Bernie this cycle is proof that it's a brave new world. The elite are disconnected from the American people and no longer will get their vote. They have reneged on their social responsibility to our society and will pay the price. Money isn't everything and does not buy everything. There are plenty of talented people in America without the 0.1%. Get rid of them and replace them with some one who cares about America rather than the almighty dollar.
Meanwhile, the elite continue to withdraw from American life and live in their own cloistered communities continuing to believe that they can buy the influence that they once had. Karl Rove's failure last election cycle and the elite's desperate failure to stop the Orange One or Bernie this cycle is proof that it's a brave new world. The elite are disconnected from the American people and no longer will get their vote. They have reneged on their social responsibility to our society and will pay the price. Money isn't everything and does not buy everything. There are plenty of talented people in America without the 0.1%. Get rid of them and replace them with some one who cares about America rather than the almighty dollar.
6
The voter revolt from the left and right, as exhibited in the rise of Sanders and Trump against the establishment's respective anointed candidates, is but the latest incarnation from the rise of Tea Party and the Occupy Movement from both sides of the aisles. Sanders and Trump, much like Tea Party and Occupiers, are likely to be too radical for most mainstream voters, but the sentiment is not going away.
Establishments might dismiss Trump and Sanders, the same way they try to contain Tea Party or ignore Occupiers, but the groundswell is only going to grow. Why? Because more and more voters are increasingly coming to the realization that their interests are not getting taken care of. Larger swath of populace is falling further behind, and all the left wants is more immigration reform (to bring more migrants in to fight for the increasing dwindle supply of low-skill jobs), while the right wants to roll back abortion rights and Obamacare. No politician wants to talk about how to nurture the economy for more better-paying jobs, when most of the new jobs created since Great Recession are low paying, forcing folks to rely on the so-called "sharing economy", part timing or freelancing, as if it's a godsend.
Is there any wonder why everyone's upset and angry? Seriously?
Establishments might dismiss Trump and Sanders, the same way they try to contain Tea Party or ignore Occupiers, but the groundswell is only going to grow. Why? Because more and more voters are increasingly coming to the realization that their interests are not getting taken care of. Larger swath of populace is falling further behind, and all the left wants is more immigration reform (to bring more migrants in to fight for the increasing dwindle supply of low-skill jobs), while the right wants to roll back abortion rights and Obamacare. No politician wants to talk about how to nurture the economy for more better-paying jobs, when most of the new jobs created since Great Recession are low paying, forcing folks to rely on the so-called "sharing economy", part timing or freelancing, as if it's a godsend.
Is there any wonder why everyone's upset and angry? Seriously?
4
Interesting article, but I would have liked specifics in the lead-in about supporters of both candidates being mostly male. According to a recent poll published in USA Today, voting women under 35 favor Sanders to Clinton by 20%, and Sanders' overall support that leans 4% towards male is practically within the margin of error. Representing Sanders' supporters as being largely male, to me, reinforces the myth that Sanders' supporters are anti-Clinton because she's a woman. This is simply not the case. Sanders is polling so well because we like his ideas, policies, and trustworthiness--all of which are backed up by decades of consistency and a refusal to be bought.
10
...and I do think that, aside from the racist lunatic fringe of Trump supporters, both groups do have a fair amount in common. We're all seeing similar problems, but identifying different sources of the problems. I hate to generalize in this way, but it seems too often like the republican base's lack of education combined with their intense level of indoctrination keeps them from seeing past Trump's easy-to-digest opinions--and from finding value in modern democratic solutions to economic and social issues. Want to see the republican party regain some sanity in a generation? Improve education now, and make it affordable for the poor in the Bible belt.
Nice try but it is males that are supporting Sanders' primarily, so mansplain all you want, but it doesn't change the data or the facts. Bernie's Bros are also the ones arrogantly and crudely attacking Hillary supporters in these comments and everywhere on line with a lot of misogynic dogma. These angry white males are also statistically speaking least likely to vote, sat out the midterms when we got our bright red Congress, but angry at everyone but the rightful owners of the elections' outcomes. Sounds like self-indulgent, chronic anger syndrome to me, looking to blame everyone but themselves.
using the word "mansplain" doesn't do the arguing for you. Is it "mansplaining" any time a male says something? I actually presented data and facts, and made no arrogant or crude attacks. I don't get your response at all. You seem to be responding to someone or something else.
The equation of the anger of Sanders' supporters (I am one!) with the anger of Trump's supporters is false and pernicious. To speak only for myself, I have no distrust of Hillary Clinton, and should she win the nomination I will support her enthusiastically. And as your reporter points out (obvious to anyone I should think) Sanders' supporters are well-educated for the most part, while Trump's are hampered by a lack of education. Sanders offers a coherent if radical program, whereas Trump offers nothing but bellicosity and nativism. Trump has no program; he simply claims that he in his wisdom and cunning can make deals and save the country. I actually feel sorry for his deluded and deprived supporters. I would blame our educational system for their infatuation with this vicious buffoon.
27
I can't speak for Republican voters, but on the Democratic side, we *are* angry. Angry at the big banks, who receive zero punishment for their repeated financial misdeeds. Angry at the prison-industrial complex, who lobby for stricter punishments for petty violations and target our black communities. Angry at those who lobby for the Trans Pacific Partnership, which will decimate our wage-earning class, undermine our environmental laws, and stifle creativity. Angry at the war profiteers, who make their living off others' deaths and have an active business interest against peace (see Syria, Ukraine, Yemen, and Libya). Angry at the Walmarts and other big corporations, who undermine tax laws, pay almost nothing to their employees, and move manufacturing overseas. Angry at health-industrial complex of health insurance companies and pharmaceutical concerns, who take away our universal right to healthcare and turn it into profits for themselves and are a large part of the heroin/meth epidemic that is destroying our country.
And above all, we are angry that these actors have funneled money into our establishment Democratic politicians. Hillary Clinton talks the right stuff when it comes to social issues, but I will never lift a finger to help her because of the company she keeps.
And above all, we are angry that these actors have funneled money into our establishment Democratic politicians. Hillary Clinton talks the right stuff when it comes to social issues, but I will never lift a finger to help her because of the company she keeps.
148
We are angry... read:
http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/Rigged_Justice_2016.pdf
http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/Rigged_Justice_2016.pdf
1
And when Trump or Cruz or even Rubio gets elected instead of Clinton, will you still be satisfied that you never lifted a finger to help her because the voters in this country will never elect a grandfatherly, nice-guy socialist as president?
1
The supposed symmetries described here are completely superficial. Of course, when many--perhaps most--of a society's citizen's believe that the direction in which the society is moving is unacceptable, it is easy to say they are all "angry."
But the starting point for identifying the causes of that anger differs by background and culture and--most of all--by the position in the world in which one finds oneself.
All else being equal, a paramedic who needs to work 60 hours to pay his bills will (if he is thinking clearly) support unions, expanded social security, national health insurance, and other programs identified with "progressives."
All else being equal, a manager of "a chain of convenience stores," if he is thinking clearly, will oppose a higher minimum wage, recycling laws, government regulation of workplace discrimination and safety. He will view the people protected by such laws as part of the "culture of complaint."
To the economic elite, or to professionals, they are both "angry." To someone who wants to change the country, one is an ally and a potential activist; the other is an opponent who will not be easy to convince, and a potential recruit to a mass movement of the extreme right.
But the starting point for identifying the causes of that anger differs by background and culture and--most of all--by the position in the world in which one finds oneself.
All else being equal, a paramedic who needs to work 60 hours to pay his bills will (if he is thinking clearly) support unions, expanded social security, national health insurance, and other programs identified with "progressives."
All else being equal, a manager of "a chain of convenience stores," if he is thinking clearly, will oppose a higher minimum wage, recycling laws, government regulation of workplace discrimination and safety. He will view the people protected by such laws as part of the "culture of complaint."
To the economic elite, or to professionals, they are both "angry." To someone who wants to change the country, one is an ally and a potential activist; the other is an opponent who will not be easy to convince, and a potential recruit to a mass movement of the extreme right.
2
Personally I would be delighted with a Trump/Sanders election!!!
I would lean towards Trump, simply because I think the coming migration tsunami is going to be *the* defining issue of the 21st century, and I think it is of utmost importance that we reject the idiot self-serving compassion of our elites, and work to control our borders while it is still possible. As the Europeans are learning, very much to their cost, flooding your country with millions of unassailable foreigners is a mistake that is extremely difficult to undo. Trump, for all his many, many, (many!) failings, seems to get this better than anyone else in the race.
But Sanders, surprisingly, is actually better on immigration than most people realize. And I fully agree with him on the corruption of our politics by money. If it has to be a Democrat, then despite Sanders' extreme left-wing views, I would take him in a minute over a Clinton dynast.
Either way, politics as usual gets blown up. And right now, that's what we need more than anything!
I would lean towards Trump, simply because I think the coming migration tsunami is going to be *the* defining issue of the 21st century, and I think it is of utmost importance that we reject the idiot self-serving compassion of our elites, and work to control our borders while it is still possible. As the Europeans are learning, very much to their cost, flooding your country with millions of unassailable foreigners is a mistake that is extremely difficult to undo. Trump, for all his many, many, (many!) failings, seems to get this better than anyone else in the race.
But Sanders, surprisingly, is actually better on immigration than most people realize. And I fully agree with him on the corruption of our politics by money. If it has to be a Democrat, then despite Sanders' extreme left-wing views, I would take him in a minute over a Clinton dynast.
Either way, politics as usual gets blown up. And right now, that's what we need more than anything!
7
The most obvious difference between the campaigns and the supporters of Trump and Sander is one of depth. Trump's speeches are as shallow as a cookie baking pan, Sanders can actually present the problems and his proposals to solve them in terms other than "[hiring] people who are very, very smart. Unbelievably smart." I would bet Bernie could teach Trump's "very, very smart" people more than a few things. Regardless of the subject at hand.
As for the supporters of both candidates, the demographics tell the tale. It is very telling that Bernie's highly educated backers want the US to be many of the same things that Trump's more modestly schooled supporters want/need. But Sanders' cohort understands that intelligent approaches reap results far beyond and longer lasting than what any amount of bombast might actually produce.
Imagine the following ballot pairings: Sanders/Warren vs. Trump/Palin.
Both send shivers down the spine. The former from excitement, the latter from panic.
As for the supporters of both candidates, the demographics tell the tale. It is very telling that Bernie's highly educated backers want the US to be many of the same things that Trump's more modestly schooled supporters want/need. But Sanders' cohort understands that intelligent approaches reap results far beyond and longer lasting than what any amount of bombast might actually produce.
Imagine the following ballot pairings: Sanders/Warren vs. Trump/Palin.
Both send shivers down the spine. The former from excitement, the latter from panic.
26
They share more than anger. They might not admit it but more binds them than keeps them apart. Both feel disenfranchised - slighted, ignored and marginalized by whichever party controls the Executive and Congress. They fear for their national and personal security, and their physical and economic wellbeing. They don't agree on the remedy but at some innate level at least they understand that, more than anything else, big money is the root cause.
Thanks to free-for-all electoral financing, a few billion spent to influence the outcome easily nets hundreds of billions in corporate welfare and a permanent seat for privilege behind the throne. This is a country whose natural wealth, ingenuity and determination should long ago have broken the back of poverty, ignorance and selective healthcare. As the middle class shrinks, it leaves two solitudes either end of the spectrum.
Trump and Sanders - poles apart in circumstance and temperament - have tapped into the same pool of frustrated voters - disingenuously or not. Both said no to big monied interests. Both promise something of a revolution in how America works - and for whom. Both are deeply distrusted, even feared by the establishment of their own parties - entrenched interests that are essentially the flip side of the same coin.
That either candidate stands a chance of beating the establishment and winning his party's nomination is a testament to the intensity of public discontent. A bold gambit for either to be sure.
Thanks to free-for-all electoral financing, a few billion spent to influence the outcome easily nets hundreds of billions in corporate welfare and a permanent seat for privilege behind the throne. This is a country whose natural wealth, ingenuity and determination should long ago have broken the back of poverty, ignorance and selective healthcare. As the middle class shrinks, it leaves two solitudes either end of the spectrum.
Trump and Sanders - poles apart in circumstance and temperament - have tapped into the same pool of frustrated voters - disingenuously or not. Both said no to big monied interests. Both promise something of a revolution in how America works - and for whom. Both are deeply distrusted, even feared by the establishment of their own parties - entrenched interests that are essentially the flip side of the same coin.
That either candidate stands a chance of beating the establishment and winning his party's nomination is a testament to the intensity of public discontent. A bold gambit for either to be sure.
7
It really shows how bizarre American politics are that Trump and Bernie Sanders are supposed discussed in parallel.
If you survey the developed world, Trump would be very far-right by any measure. Even compared to someone like Marine Le Pen, Trump is farther right on socio-economic issues, and just as xenophobic. Even Trump's own party have denounced Trump's extremist xenophobic views, and this is a party where standard party-line is to build a thousand mile fence between US and Mexico.
Sanders, on the other hand, would be a center-left candidate in many countries in the developed world. Indeed, Sanders' advocacy for single-payer healthcare is described as radical, yet single-payer health-care has been the system in plenty of countries around the world, from Taiwan to Sweden, for decades.
We can debate the pros and cons of Sanders's proposal, but a candidate who proposes a policy similar to systems that have been in place for decades in other developed countries is not "radical."
Reading this article makes me think how much Americans exist in their own bubble world.
If you survey the developed world, Trump would be very far-right by any measure. Even compared to someone like Marine Le Pen, Trump is farther right on socio-economic issues, and just as xenophobic. Even Trump's own party have denounced Trump's extremist xenophobic views, and this is a party where standard party-line is to build a thousand mile fence between US and Mexico.
Sanders, on the other hand, would be a center-left candidate in many countries in the developed world. Indeed, Sanders' advocacy for single-payer healthcare is described as radical, yet single-payer health-care has been the system in plenty of countries around the world, from Taiwan to Sweden, for decades.
We can debate the pros and cons of Sanders's proposal, but a candidate who proposes a policy similar to systems that have been in place for decades in other developed countries is not "radical."
Reading this article makes me think how much Americans exist in their own bubble world.
104
I support Trump for 4 reasons.
1. Secure our borders or we cease being a nation.
2. Stop the refugee invasion or we will have chaos like Europe.
3. Balance the budget.
4. End the tyranny of a unconstitutionally ran government,
not obeying the law, violating our rights and undermining the national security of the United States.
1. Secure our borders or we cease being a nation.
2. Stop the refugee invasion or we will have chaos like Europe.
3. Balance the budget.
4. End the tyranny of a unconstitutionally ran government,
not obeying the law, violating our rights and undermining the national security of the United States.
6
@Dennis McMurtry
How do you suppose a man who thrice declared bankruptcy will balance the federal budget?
How do you suppose a man who thrice declared bankruptcy will balance the federal budget?
2
What about jail time for those who hired and continue to hire illegal immigrants?
America is and always has been mediocre at best.
America is and always has been mediocre at best.
I'm not really a Bernie Sanders supporter, but the comparisons of Bernie to Donald Trump are beginning to annoy me. These two men are nothing alike, and neither are their supporters. Mr. Sanders is a decent man who happens to have a passionate belief that fixing economic inequality will help millions of Americans who have watched rich people get richer while their wages stagnate at best, or their jobs get off-shored at worst. Mr. Sanders saves his invective for fat-cat Wall Street types and has been relatively mild even in criticizing his opponent, Mrs. Clinton. In contrast, Mr. Trump is an ignorant, arrogant, foul mouthed narcissist who has no actual positions on any issue except those which will get him elected. In my opinion, he represents the nadir of what remains of civic discourse in this country. To say that his supporters are angry at politics as usual (as many of Bernie's are) is to ignore the elephant of racism and xenophobia in the room. His rhetoric has catered to our worst instincts. I can't understand how anyone can support his candidacy for dog catcher, much less President of the United States.
176
Well said!
This is the best analysis I have read of the current political scene and I couldn't agree more!
Wendy *** That's what I'm taking about .... Beautiful ...
If 30% of Sanders supporters are angry at Washington, then 70% (the majority) are not driven by anger at Washington (the premise of this article).
They're driven by our vast and growing vast income inequality. Wanting to fix it isn't some revolutionary movement--it's turning back the economic clock a couple of decades.
And nobody with a conscience can look at income stagnation--or worse, the decline in median income, the rise in college costs, extreme income inequality, etc and say they like things as they are.
They're driven by our vast and growing vast income inequality. Wanting to fix it isn't some revolutionary movement--it's turning back the economic clock a couple of decades.
And nobody with a conscience can look at income stagnation--or worse, the decline in median income, the rise in college costs, extreme income inequality, etc and say they like things as they are.
51
The media twists America again.
After the San Bernadino attack, we Americans were told that we were "nervous," (according to the NBC Nightly News). Now we're "angry."
I'm not angry. Well, I'm upset that Hillary thought that this would be a coronation. I'm glad Sanders is making her work for the nomination.
I'll be nervous if Trump actually wins the Republican nomination. However, I'm relieved that the carnival barker saved us from President Jeb Bush. That would have been a disaster.
I would have been angry if Bush were the frontrunner.
After the San Bernadino attack, we Americans were told that we were "nervous," (according to the NBC Nightly News). Now we're "angry."
I'm not angry. Well, I'm upset that Hillary thought that this would be a coronation. I'm glad Sanders is making her work for the nomination.
I'll be nervous if Trump actually wins the Republican nomination. However, I'm relieved that the carnival barker saved us from President Jeb Bush. That would have been a disaster.
I would have been angry if Bush were the frontrunner.
15
Trump and Sanders are to each other what positive and negative are to each other.
These are troubled times we live in. One candidate is forthright about the level of corruption and dysfunction our nation is mired in, while the other uses the anger over it for his own personal advantage to deepen inequality, and not work for the common good.
Our nation is at a crossroads. Our economy and the way we express capitalism are at a crossroads. Our freedom, as people who live in a Democratic Republic, is in danger.
Who most closely matches the level of thoughtfulness and thinking that someone like legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin challenged us to? Trump or Sanders? Theory of Equality: http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/08/ronald-dworkin-theory-of-equality-philo...
---
www.rimaregas.com
These are troubled times we live in. One candidate is forthright about the level of corruption and dysfunction our nation is mired in, while the other uses the anger over it for his own personal advantage to deepen inequality, and not work for the common good.
Our nation is at a crossroads. Our economy and the way we express capitalism are at a crossroads. Our freedom, as people who live in a Democratic Republic, is in danger.
Who most closely matches the level of thoughtfulness and thinking that someone like legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin challenged us to? Trump or Sanders? Theory of Equality: http://www.rimaregas.com/2015/08/ronald-dworkin-theory-of-equality-philo...
---
www.rimaregas.com
20
In short, DT supporters watch fox so-called news, supposed "reality" shows and believe twitter. Senator Sanders' supporters, and Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton voters, look at their dwindling savings and lack of opportunity for themselves and their families and see that the kool-aid they have been drinking for 40+ years about "getting ahead" is actually poison for 99% of us. No secret, although the mainstream press has tried to keep it one. Average people in America are finally starting to see the truth and the results will show on November 8 when socially conscious democrats and independents take America back from the top1% financial elite who have been robbing us blind.
59
actually no. They don't have any savings and live from one government check to the next.
I don't agree that HRC voters are getting it about what's been poisoning the economy for the last several decades. They are trying to elect Goldman Sachs yet again.
Hillary mixes up a pretty mean batch of Kool-Aid herself.
I sure like the bait. It's the switch that troubles me.
I sure like the bait. It's the switch that troubles me.
Not so much shared anger, as shared disillusionment, which they then channel in different ways.
The idea that voters feel their candidate is "special", and uniquely qualified to carry their banner, again misses the point I think. Its not about the candidates, its about the system.
The issue is there are no other options to vote for candidates who reject a hopelessly corrupt political system, rigged in favor of those who participate in this legalized bribery we call campaign financing, cushy lobbying jobs, and "speaking fees".
Its no wonder that the Obama administration supports Hillary as 'best prepared to carry on their legacy', because they are part of the same hypocrisy.
The progress of the Obama administration are not "their accomplishments", as President Obama himself has so frequently reminded us. It is the progress of the country towards a more perfect union.
Establishment politics has been rotted out from within, the corruption is too thorough and suffused to be credibly salvageable. It is beyond salvage.
Facing that fact, is not anger, its a willingness to play the ball where it lies.
Hillary is better prepared to be president. But her vision is backwards looking, and a Hillary presidency would set back the cause of the country 20 years. Whereas a Trump or Cruz presidency would set the country back 150 or 400 years respectively.
Calling the rejection of the establishment "anger", is really patronizing and demeaning, and evades the merits of the argument.
The idea that voters feel their candidate is "special", and uniquely qualified to carry their banner, again misses the point I think. Its not about the candidates, its about the system.
The issue is there are no other options to vote for candidates who reject a hopelessly corrupt political system, rigged in favor of those who participate in this legalized bribery we call campaign financing, cushy lobbying jobs, and "speaking fees".
Its no wonder that the Obama administration supports Hillary as 'best prepared to carry on their legacy', because they are part of the same hypocrisy.
The progress of the Obama administration are not "their accomplishments", as President Obama himself has so frequently reminded us. It is the progress of the country towards a more perfect union.
Establishment politics has been rotted out from within, the corruption is too thorough and suffused to be credibly salvageable. It is beyond salvage.
Facing that fact, is not anger, its a willingness to play the ball where it lies.
Hillary is better prepared to be president. But her vision is backwards looking, and a Hillary presidency would set back the cause of the country 20 years. Whereas a Trump or Cruz presidency would set the country back 150 or 400 years respectively.
Calling the rejection of the establishment "anger", is really patronizing and demeaning, and evades the merits of the argument.
41
Great comment, especially the last point. A patronizing analysis and one framed around a false equivalence.
The Sanders campaign is about mobilizing the citizenry to action around our loss of democratic process to a corporate/billionaire class oligarchy - its core is a hopeful and unfying 'we not me' - pretty much the opposite of Trump's fascist, strongman image and the divisiveness and fear he is fomenting and feeding off.
The Sanders campaign is about mobilizing the citizenry to action around our loss of democratic process to a corporate/billionaire class oligarchy - its core is a hopeful and unfying 'we not me' - pretty much the opposite of Trump's fascist, strongman image and the divisiveness and fear he is fomenting and feeding off.
6
Wonderfully said, and spot on.
What I find odd is the lack of specifics: what is "backwards looking 20 years"??
The fact that we have anything after the Bush fiasco is to Obama's credit- he certainly had no help from Congress and Bush took up almost into Depression after squandering a surplus. Not sure in the real world in 8 years anyone could have realistically done better except if the GOP had actually ever done anything, which they never did.
The fact that we have anything after the Bush fiasco is to Obama's credit- he certainly had no help from Congress and Bush took up almost into Depression after squandering a surplus. Not sure in the real world in 8 years anyone could have realistically done better except if the GOP had actually ever done anything, which they never did.
1
As a college-educated woman who fully supports Donald Trump, I am always amused by the media's desperate attempts to portray Trump supporters as "non-college-educated, angry, white males."
My entire family, and circle of friends, are college-educated (some of whom hold more than one degree), so I am really rather puzzled as to where the media is obtaining their data. (Actually, I don't believe they are obtaining any such data at all; I believe that this so-called data is fabricated.)
I am also fascinated by the fact that the media clearly feels the need to repeat their "non-college-educated" mantra over and over and over again, because it strongly indicates a need, on their part, to feel somehow superior to Trump supporters (and anyone who has studied psychology understands that a person who has the need to feel superior to others is, generally, masking a deep-seated sense of inferiority, themselves.)
Enough said...
My entire family, and circle of friends, are college-educated (some of whom hold more than one degree), so I am really rather puzzled as to where the media is obtaining their data. (Actually, I don't believe they are obtaining any such data at all; I believe that this so-called data is fabricated.)
I am also fascinated by the fact that the media clearly feels the need to repeat their "non-college-educated" mantra over and over and over again, because it strongly indicates a need, on their part, to feel somehow superior to Trump supporters (and anyone who has studied psychology understands that a person who has the need to feel superior to others is, generally, masking a deep-seated sense of inferiority, themselves.)
Enough said...
20
College educated...and you disagree with any data, from a multiplicity of sources, that disagrees with you?
Right.
Right.
3
You don't like the data, so you believe the data is fabricated?
You look at yourself and your family and friends. You are college-educated. Therefore, you conclude, nation-wide, Trump supporters cannot be majority non-college educated?
Indeed, enough said, I think you have given us an important insight into the making of a Trump supporter.
You look at yourself and your family and friends. You are college-educated. Therefore, you conclude, nation-wide, Trump supporters cannot be majority non-college educated?
Indeed, enough said, I think you have given us an important insight into the making of a Trump supporter.
3
Has it occurred to you that your comment noting that people who "need to feel somehow superior to others" are often masking a deep-seated sense of inferiority... applies perfectly to your chosen candidate, The Donald?
3
A fear of terror is understandable, but to aim it at the southern border is irrational. Mexico and its nationals do not pose anything near an existential threat to the United States. This is true even if you confine the definition of "existential threat" to low-wage work; net migration from Mexico has fallen to zero.
When you so palpably lack a factual basis for this type of fear, especially at the feverish levels we've seen among Trump's most militant supporters, all that's left are extremely raw emotional grounds. Those fears are economic, cultural, even racial. To admit that they are real, however, is not to excuse politicians from exploiting fear. The anxiety or even hatred that Trump is encouraging to fuel his campaign will explode in spasms of violence. Not just Mexicans or Americans of Latin origin, but anyone who doesn't fit the script and fill the roles in the suddenly potent nativist narrative.
We are living through a second version of the Weimar Republic. As a nonwhite citizen of the United States without the benefit of a birth certificate, I am deeply worried that the country I love will not continue to love me back. Sanders is riding a similar wave of anger and fear, but to his credit, he has not given aid and comfort to hatemongers. Trump has. That makes him public enemy number 1 in the contemporary United States. I hope that the rest of us will rise and fight him with every measure available in our democracy.
When you so palpably lack a factual basis for this type of fear, especially at the feverish levels we've seen among Trump's most militant supporters, all that's left are extremely raw emotional grounds. Those fears are economic, cultural, even racial. To admit that they are real, however, is not to excuse politicians from exploiting fear. The anxiety or even hatred that Trump is encouraging to fuel his campaign will explode in spasms of violence. Not just Mexicans or Americans of Latin origin, but anyone who doesn't fit the script and fill the roles in the suddenly potent nativist narrative.
We are living through a second version of the Weimar Republic. As a nonwhite citizen of the United States without the benefit of a birth certificate, I am deeply worried that the country I love will not continue to love me back. Sanders is riding a similar wave of anger and fear, but to his credit, he has not given aid and comfort to hatemongers. Trump has. That makes him public enemy number 1 in the contemporary United States. I hope that the rest of us will rise and fight him with every measure available in our democracy.
33
Ron Cohen wrote, "I don' think Sanders supporters have a thorough understanding of the way American government really works. Sanders supporters seem to want achieve a socialist paradise by having President Sanders snap his Presidential fingers."
Sanders understands that no president can do it alone. That's why he tells people at his rallies that he will need them more the day after the election to tell members of Congress that they will lose their job if they don't do the right thing.
As president, Sanders has said he will help to elect new candidates to Congress, which is what he did when he was mayor of Burlington.
Sanders: “I took office with 11 out of 13 members of the City Council in very strong opposition to my agenda. Trust me, if you think the Republicans have been obstructionist to President Obama during his time in office, that was nothing compared to what my supporters and I experienced. But one year later, in strong support of what I and my coalition had accomplished and wanted to do, a slate of candidates that I supported for the City Council defeated a number of the incumbent obstructionists. A year after that, in an election in which the voter turnout was almost ‘double’ what it had been when I was first elected, I pretty easily defeated the Democratic and Republican candidates, and did so in two more elections. I decided not to run for reelection in 1989.”
Sanders understands that no president can do it alone. That's why he tells people at his rallies that he will need them more the day after the election to tell members of Congress that they will lose their job if they don't do the right thing.
As president, Sanders has said he will help to elect new candidates to Congress, which is what he did when he was mayor of Burlington.
Sanders: “I took office with 11 out of 13 members of the City Council in very strong opposition to my agenda. Trust me, if you think the Republicans have been obstructionist to President Obama during his time in office, that was nothing compared to what my supporters and I experienced. But one year later, in strong support of what I and my coalition had accomplished and wanted to do, a slate of candidates that I supported for the City Council defeated a number of the incumbent obstructionists. A year after that, in an election in which the voter turnout was almost ‘double’ what it had been when I was first elected, I pretty easily defeated the Democratic and Republican candidates, and did so in two more elections. I decided not to run for reelection in 1989.”
93
Sanders's comparing the Burlington, VT city council to the U.S. House of Representatives is a pretty poor way to argue Ron Cohen's point. Indeed it is a rather good illustration of what he is saying. I'm surprised and dismayed to hear that Sanders has made such a comparison.
Oh, we just have to tell Congress what we want. I wish we had thought of that. We can tell you guys know so much because you are in college. Such naivety. Go watch film clips of the 1968 Democratic National Convention and tell us Boomers how easy it will all be. Unbelievable.
I was with you until you quoted Sanders: "Trust me, if you think the Republicans have been obstructionist to President Obama during his time in office, that was nothing compared to what my supporters and I experienced."
If Sanders really believes this, he is delusional.
The Republicans have spent 7 years trying to negate PBO's Presidency. More than 60 votes to repeal the ACA and replace it with nothing. Vile, racist hatred directed at him. Congressmen jumping up and interrupting his SOTU speech yelling, "you lie". House Republicans declaring on the day of his inauguration their intention to make him a one term president as their highest goal. Shutting down the government, inviting Netanayhu to speak to the house against the treaty he was negotiating with Iran --- it goes on and on.
Saying his experience as Mayor of Burlington for 6 years (38,000) people eclipsed President BO's experience with obstructionists is ludicrous.
If Sanders really believes this, he is delusional.
The Republicans have spent 7 years trying to negate PBO's Presidency. More than 60 votes to repeal the ACA and replace it with nothing. Vile, racist hatred directed at him. Congressmen jumping up and interrupting his SOTU speech yelling, "you lie". House Republicans declaring on the day of his inauguration their intention to make him a one term president as their highest goal. Shutting down the government, inviting Netanayhu to speak to the house against the treaty he was negotiating with Iran --- it goes on and on.
Saying his experience as Mayor of Burlington for 6 years (38,000) people eclipsed President BO's experience with obstructionists is ludicrous.
Let's get real. Bernie Sanders will not have a "profound impact" on this campaign, let alone the future of America politics. His revolution will die, stillborn.
10
Im voting for him. If he is not the Dems general candidate. I will refuse to vote at all. HRC and all the other establishment candidates are all going to lose. Trump has even less of a chance comparatively because he has never held any form of political office.
The people deserve the government they vote for.
It seems that, like Bill Clinton back in the day, you have a problem with the meaning of very small words.
In your case, it just happens to be a four letter word: real.
It is actually more "real" to believe that Hillary Clinton might end up dropping out due to her problems with her unsecure server.
It Is actually less "real" to believe that any of the Bozos in the GOP clown car will ever have a chance on having any real impact on the future of American politics.
In your case, it just happens to be a four letter word: real.
It is actually more "real" to believe that Hillary Clinton might end up dropping out due to her problems with her unsecure server.
It Is actually less "real" to believe that any of the Bozos in the GOP clown car will ever have a chance on having any real impact on the future of American politics.
"The targets of their anger diverge. Mr. Trump’s supporters directed their wrath toward career politicians, unlawful immigrants, terrorists and people who they said were taking advantage of welfare. Mr. Sanders’s supporters assailed big banks and economic inequality."
The misdirection of the wrath of Trump supporters has been bought by the plutocrats with a huge 24/7 media operation (Fox/Rush, etc.). The 'inequality' assailed by Sanders's supporters sounds kind of vague and nebulous. Sanders would reach more Trump supporters if called out the corporations who offshore operations and import H1Bs, by name.
"43 percent of Sanders backers are at least college graduates, the same survey showed."
Not a good sign since college graduates makeup only about a quarter of the population.
"Mr. Sanders’s supporters tended to blame the campaign finance system for Washington dysfunction; Mr. Trump’s supporters blamed the politicians who they said cared only about donations."
Campaign finance and politicians caring only about donations - sounds like the same complaint to me.
The misdirection of the wrath of Trump supporters has been bought by the plutocrats with a huge 24/7 media operation (Fox/Rush, etc.). The 'inequality' assailed by Sanders's supporters sounds kind of vague and nebulous. Sanders would reach more Trump supporters if called out the corporations who offshore operations and import H1Bs, by name.
"43 percent of Sanders backers are at least college graduates, the same survey showed."
Not a good sign since college graduates makeup only about a quarter of the population.
"Mr. Sanders’s supporters tended to blame the campaign finance system for Washington dysfunction; Mr. Trump’s supporters blamed the politicians who they said cared only about donations."
Campaign finance and politicians caring only about donations - sounds like the same complaint to me.
10
The word 'inequality' my carry well with educated liberals (a very tiny portion of the electorate) but is absolute poison to almost all working class whites, who believe sincerely that it means giving their hard-earned money to bums on welfare, or more specifically to black people on welfare. This belief lays at the core of their outlook. Sanders seems to have spent his entire life in the liberal bubble of Brooklyn and Vermont. He better adapt his language to the heartland if he wants more traction there. He should ditch 'inequality' and instead talk about offshoring and H1Bs.
7
The latest data show that just 40 percent of Americans have finished an associate's degree or above, while an additional 22 percent attended some college but failed to graduate.
Bernie's Bros blame "the man"; Trumps blame the Mexicans. Both wallow in their self-pitying martyr syndromes that gets them all riled up and feeling powerful.
There are aspects of both candidates I like. Without passing any new legislation, Sanders would use existing antitrust laws to break up dangerous concentrations of economic power. And would prosecute the executives responsible for illegal corporate behavior. Hillary? Those speaking fees talk loudly.
The Republican establishment is very tolerant of illegal immigration. Nothing better than a pool of black market labor, to whom no labor protection laws apply, to hold down wages for everyone.
There is no way of increasing our standard of living if our workers, particularly unskilled and semi skilled workers, must compete with Chinese, Vietnamese, and Mexicans. Most Americans would be willing to pay a little more for American made goods in return for a better wage scale.
And as for taxes, Republicans always cite the Kennedy tax cut. By his tax cut, Kennedy set the top bracket rate at 70%. Bernie favors 52%. Those Kennedy loving Republicans should be thrilled.
The Republican establishment is very tolerant of illegal immigration. Nothing better than a pool of black market labor, to whom no labor protection laws apply, to hold down wages for everyone.
There is no way of increasing our standard of living if our workers, particularly unskilled and semi skilled workers, must compete with Chinese, Vietnamese, and Mexicans. Most Americans would be willing to pay a little more for American made goods in return for a better wage scale.
And as for taxes, Republicans always cite the Kennedy tax cut. By his tax cut, Kennedy set the top bracket rate at 70%. Bernie favors 52%. Those Kennedy loving Republicans should be thrilled.
66
What is truly amazing is that so many people believe Bernie can accomplish these things. No President has successfully won an anti-trust action against a major corporation in 50 years. Not gonna happen with Bernie either. And the statute of limitations is already over for crimes that Wall Streeters may have committed back in 2007 or 2008. Prosecutions, not gonna happen.
Bernie supporters hate being compared to Trump supporters, but on issues like this, the similarities are so clear. Facts and reality simply don't matter to them.
Bernie supporters hate being compared to Trump supporters, but on issues like this, the similarities are so clear. Facts and reality simply don't matter to them.
You are proving my point. Wall Street has sunk its tentacles so deeply into government, no one has brought an antitrust law suit against its largest institutions.
2
Many supporters for both Mr. Trump and Sen. Sanders are angry with a heavy dose of self-righteousness and unwillingness to listen.
Anger can be a useful emotion when it energizes people to work for productive change. But it can also become destructive, focusing on wrong targets and counterproductive solutions.
Real leaders know how to focus anger to work for good, realistic solutions.
Mr. Trump knows how to stoke the anger, not focus it. Building walls, raising tariffs, and talking tough will not cure global competition, stagnant wages and income inequality. His approach is to stoke the anger and focus on negativity.
Sen. Sanders, at least, focuses anger and works to harness it towards positive outcomes. But his solutions are as unrealistic as Mr. Trump.
A little humility and a lot more listening would be useful.
Anger can be a useful emotion when it energizes people to work for productive change. But it can also become destructive, focusing on wrong targets and counterproductive solutions.
Real leaders know how to focus anger to work for good, realistic solutions.
Mr. Trump knows how to stoke the anger, not focus it. Building walls, raising tariffs, and talking tough will not cure global competition, stagnant wages and income inequality. His approach is to stoke the anger and focus on negativity.
Sen. Sanders, at least, focuses anger and works to harness it towards positive outcomes. But his solutions are as unrealistic as Mr. Trump.
A little humility and a lot more listening would be useful.
16
"But his solutions are as unrealistic as Mr. Trump."
No, we have in the past instituted all of the financial regulatory and tax reforms Mr Sanders is suggesting, excluding Single Payer Health Care, and we will implement these again and they will perform as expected again. The simple fact is this, the rich and corporations need to pay more in taxes. Taxes are how wealth is redistributed. Wealthy people who do not share generally get their heads cut off by angry mobs.
No, we have in the past instituted all of the financial regulatory and tax reforms Mr Sanders is suggesting, excluding Single Payer Health Care, and we will implement these again and they will perform as expected again. The simple fact is this, the rich and corporations need to pay more in taxes. Taxes are how wealth is redistributed. Wealthy people who do not share generally get their heads cut off by angry mobs.
6
We really should know our place. Thanks, Rita. I needed that reality check.
Sanders has unrealistic solutions? It's sad that so many people think we, the wealthiest country in history, can not have the programs and policies that most other developed countries have. Maybe more of us need to travel and see how other countries invest in their citizens rather than just their corporations. But that would be difficult given our low wages and lack of vacation time.
2
Trump supporters seem to want to "Make America Great Again" by having billionaire Donald Trump snap his Presidential fingers.
Sanders supporters seem to want to make America fair again by having Bernie Sanders champion and implement detailed, sensible public policy through Congress.
I don't think the Trump supporters have a thorough understanding of the way American government really works.
The USA is not a Trumpian monarchy.
The USA is a dollaratic kleptocracy that Bernie Sanders wants to convert back into a traditional, humble democracy.
Feel The Bern - don't get Trumped !
Sanders supporters seem to want to make America fair again by having Bernie Sanders champion and implement detailed, sensible public policy through Congress.
I don't think the Trump supporters have a thorough understanding of the way American government really works.
The USA is not a Trumpian monarchy.
The USA is a dollaratic kleptocracy that Bernie Sanders wants to convert back into a traditional, humble democracy.
Feel The Bern - don't get Trumped !
397
Reply to Socrates,
I don' think Sanders supporters have a thorough understanding of the way American government really works.
Sanders supporters seem to want achieve a socialist paradise by having President Sanders snap his Presidential fingers.
I don' think Sanders supporters have a thorough understanding of the way American government really works.
Sanders supporters seem to want achieve a socialist paradise by having President Sanders snap his Presidential fingers.
36
Ron--I think we have a very good idea of how American government "really works", or does not work, and that is what we are trying to change. Academic studies prove what we already knew. It is pay to play and if you are not a huge donor and lobbyist, your policies don't matter. It is not just a slogan that Congress is bought and paid for, but a reality.
As for a "socialist paradise." Not sure which "paradise" you grew up in, but mine in Calf. offered nearly free higher education. Housing was affordable and decent paying jobs for the young plentiful. Healthcare did not bankrupt us--I even paid cash for an ER visit. That was in the '70's.
I want you and your family to have a good life. Affordable healthcare, a good job with benefits, adequate housing, sick leave, vacation pay, etc.
But is is not just You or Me, but We. That is what makes a society great.
As for a "socialist paradise." Not sure which "paradise" you grew up in, but mine in Calf. offered nearly free higher education. Housing was affordable and decent paying jobs for the young plentiful. Healthcare did not bankrupt us--I even paid cash for an ER visit. That was in the '70's.
I want you and your family to have a good life. Affordable healthcare, a good job with benefits, adequate housing, sick leave, vacation pay, etc.
But is is not just You or Me, but We. That is what makes a society great.
127
Trump supporters have common sense and don't live in ivory towers. They work hard every day for pennies, only to see their jobs outsourced and illegals and non-americans siphoning the wealth from the USA through repatriations. They look around and see that plenty of people are a permanent underclass and have no intention of ever working. Giving them bigger and fatter welfare checks will only result in more purchases of $500 sneakers and $2000 gucci bags.
Sanders supporters are ivory tower quacks, majority of them live in all white middle class wealthy neighborhoods and have enough wealth that they never have felt hunger. These spoiled brats have never balanced a budget. The equivalent of modern day Marie Antoinette's who can't understand why Sanders can't just give everybody cake.
Sanders supporters are ivory tower quacks, majority of them live in all white middle class wealthy neighborhoods and have enough wealth that they never have felt hunger. These spoiled brats have never balanced a budget. The equivalent of modern day Marie Antoinette's who can't understand why Sanders can't just give everybody cake.
3
The split can be defined by those who people who have the ability to think critically and distinguish between objective and subjective, and those who choose to keep their belief system intact rather than look at what the actual facts have to offer.
Trump panders to the latter by telling them what they want to hear and by validating their own racism and xenophobia.
Sanders challenges the go-along-to-get-along expediency of tweaking things around the edges and actually defines problems in plain English.
Sanders supporters aren't driven by anger. They are driven by the status quo's refusal to acknowledge what the problems are. Trump's supporters can't get beyond their own anger and the belief that everything is someone else's fault to actually pay any attention to what Trump's actually says, much less his lack of any concrete ideas.
Trump panders to the latter by telling them what they want to hear and by validating their own racism and xenophobia.
Sanders challenges the go-along-to-get-along expediency of tweaking things around the edges and actually defines problems in plain English.
Sanders supporters aren't driven by anger. They are driven by the status quo's refusal to acknowledge what the problems are. Trump's supporters can't get beyond their own anger and the belief that everything is someone else's fault to actually pay any attention to what Trump's actually says, much less his lack of any concrete ideas.
178
I think there's more to it than that. Trump taps into hatred for other people more than hatred for corrupt institutions. His rally speeches are 100% appeal to emotions. He uses words like weak, strong, stupid, smart and freely associates them with select targeted enemies- again, groups of people. With Trump, its all personal, about setlling scores.
3
Vanessa, your argument is entirely too simplistic and judgmental. You take a superior stance. Trump does not validate racism nor xenophobia—the two bogus stances of the left. To imply that such a large segment of the American public is either of these things in enormously demeaning and typifies the "superiority" of attitude that left wing types surround and protect themselves with. Don't fall into this trap.
Trump does, as you state, present an outlet for those who DO feel anger at having been so ill-treated and misrepresented by the very people who were elected to SERVE the people. They have only served themselves. Why is no leftist offended at the luxury that the so-called champions of the people immerse themselves in? Obama's lavish vacations, endless golf, endless fundraising ventures among the elite, the Clinton's wealth and privilege courtesy the fraudulent "charity" they created for themselves. And look at Congress. Whatever applies to us does not apply to them. There is no evil in feeling anger for these transgressions.
Don't for one moment believe that Sanders' overlying, and sincere, philosophy of taking from those who strive to give to those who don't. It is the primary diving mechanism of socialism—which, actually feels no compassion at all for the truly needy—and perpetuates itself by "buying" favor at the expense of society to create a permanent dependent class.
Trump does, as you state, present an outlet for those who DO feel anger at having been so ill-treated and misrepresented by the very people who were elected to SERVE the people. They have only served themselves. Why is no leftist offended at the luxury that the so-called champions of the people immerse themselves in? Obama's lavish vacations, endless golf, endless fundraising ventures among the elite, the Clinton's wealth and privilege courtesy the fraudulent "charity" they created for themselves. And look at Congress. Whatever applies to us does not apply to them. There is no evil in feeling anger for these transgressions.
Don't for one moment believe that Sanders' overlying, and sincere, philosophy of taking from those who strive to give to those who don't. It is the primary diving mechanism of socialism—which, actually feels no compassion at all for the truly needy—and perpetuates itself by "buying" favor at the expense of society to create a permanent dependent class.
3
Dear vanessa
Nothing could be further from the truth regarding my interest in electing Trump to the presidency. I am absolutely tired of voting for people who promise something (anything) and the don't deliver; furthermore, there is absolutely no racism or xenophobia in my views and opinions. I would prefer a fish on a bicycle that kept his or her word to ANY OTHER tax/spend/pie in the sky 'establishment' candidate.
Sanders will do just fine as long as you and I remain employed, after that the money runs out pretty fast. Regarding Trumps 'concrete' ideas; you my friend have not taken the time to look for, and then read the position papers presented by Trump. Please do take the time to educate yourself before offering an opinion on how it is other people perceive their plight or select their political representation.
Nothing could be further from the truth regarding my interest in electing Trump to the presidency. I am absolutely tired of voting for people who promise something (anything) and the don't deliver; furthermore, there is absolutely no racism or xenophobia in my views and opinions. I would prefer a fish on a bicycle that kept his or her word to ANY OTHER tax/spend/pie in the sky 'establishment' candidate.
Sanders will do just fine as long as you and I remain employed, after that the money runs out pretty fast. Regarding Trumps 'concrete' ideas; you my friend have not taken the time to look for, and then read the position papers presented by Trump. Please do take the time to educate yourself before offering an opinion on how it is other people perceive their plight or select their political representation.
3
Yes, there's a symmetry between Trump and Sanders. Both speak for disenfranchised majorities. The psychodynamics of their respective movements are identical:
1. The Trump supporters "blame the loss of control over their lives, real or imagined, on a conspiracy between cosmopolitan-minded elites and tribal-minded immigrants. They blame liberal ideas and institutions for weakening the national will and eroding national unity. They tend to see compromise as corruption and zealousness as conviction.”
2. The Sanders supporters blame the loss of control over their lives, real or imagined, on a conspiracy between business/financial elites, and tribal-minded white workers. They blame conservative ideas and institutions for weakening the national will and eroding national unity. They tend to see compromise as corruption and zealousness as conviction.
The quotation in ¶1. I took from "Why Poland Is Turning Away From the West," by Ivan Krastek, http://tinyurl.com/jy8gxyo . For ¶2., I changed a few words.
Eric Hoffer explored such mass movements in his 1951 classic,"The True Believer.” According to Wikipedia: "Hoffer states that mass movements begin with a widespread 'desire for change' from discontented people who place their locus of control outside their power and who also have no confidence in existing culture or traditions." http://tinyurl.com/omlsv5u
Fanatically held belief is the glue that holds a mass movement together. Nonbelievers, the “impure," are demonized or beheaded.
1. The Trump supporters "blame the loss of control over their lives, real or imagined, on a conspiracy between cosmopolitan-minded elites and tribal-minded immigrants. They blame liberal ideas and institutions for weakening the national will and eroding national unity. They tend to see compromise as corruption and zealousness as conviction.”
2. The Sanders supporters blame the loss of control over their lives, real or imagined, on a conspiracy between business/financial elites, and tribal-minded white workers. They blame conservative ideas and institutions for weakening the national will and eroding national unity. They tend to see compromise as corruption and zealousness as conviction.
The quotation in ¶1. I took from "Why Poland Is Turning Away From the West," by Ivan Krastek, http://tinyurl.com/jy8gxyo . For ¶2., I changed a few words.
Eric Hoffer explored such mass movements in his 1951 classic,"The True Believer.” According to Wikipedia: "Hoffer states that mass movements begin with a widespread 'desire for change' from discontented people who place their locus of control outside their power and who also have no confidence in existing culture or traditions." http://tinyurl.com/omlsv5u
Fanatically held belief is the glue that holds a mass movement together. Nonbelievers, the “impure," are demonized or beheaded.
20
Trump supporters tend to direct their anger at PEOPLE threatening their well-being, such as terrorists, immigrants, politicians.
Sanders supporters tend to direct their anger toward POLICIES threatening their well-being, such as taxes and financial regulations favoring the rich.
Both groups are critical of money in politics.
Sanders supporters tend to direct their anger toward POLICIES threatening their well-being, such as taxes and financial regulations favoring the rich.
Both groups are critical of money in politics.
82
No, we do not imagine a "conspiracy between business/financial elites." We are moved and alarmed by a totally verifiable and factually proven accumulation of wealth at by very few people and institutions over the past 35 years, one which has only accelerated in the second term of the president that the rightwing media blowhorn has labeled repeatedly and ludicrously as "socialist." There is an honorable and well-documented tradition of US government intervention in the economy, most significantly during the national emergency of World War II, which was not only quite successful but laid the groundwork for a whole generation of subsequent prosperity. We are at a place now where the necessary conversion from a non-fossil-fuel energy economy, and the desperate need for wealth redistribution, could be seen by plenty of non-fanatics as the perfect occasion to implement a more "socialist" national economic policy to accomplish both those goals and in the process wipe out many of the social ills that result from poverty and despair. I resent both yours and the New York Times' dime-store psychoanalysis, ridiculous and shallow as it stands, and even the more so for equating the obviously well-educated Sanders supporters with the obviously television-addled and fear-based Trump supporters in this single meaningless (because universally experienced) emotion of "anger."
3
The words of true believer in a fantasy trumped by reality.
I know a lot of people who say they will vote for Bernie Sanders, but not because they are angry or uneducated. Far from it. They are voting for Bernie Sanders because they think he is right.
463
and because they think it will make them look hip and cool to their friends in their multi-million dollar second homes in a resort community
5
Oh good grief. There are many very hard working, educated people here who only have one home. Do not generalize.
5
A good way to find out if you and the people you know are right is to try living in a country with a communist government.
1
Beginning in the late 60's, the Democratic elite abandoned the working class, which was doing well, and focused on poverty and civil rights -- good causes, to be sure, but not the only ones. The Republican elite, meanwhile, chose to represent the .1% and a backwards, intolerant strain of social conservatism.
Now, the Republican and Democratic rank and file alike have come to realize that neither party has been serving their interests, and I have to confess to a certain pleasure in watching the stunned blubbering of the party elites and the press as they discover just how out of touch they are with public opinion.
Here's a primer for you, guys:
1. Exporting jobs to low-wage countries like China does not serve the American worker. It drives down wages here.
2. Importing workers from low-wage countries does not serve the American worker. It drives down wages here.
3. As long as legislators have to raise vast sums from special interest groups to get elected, it will not be possible for them to serve the interests of the American worker.
Do you understand, now? Your little tricks don't work any more, because working people are seeing their quality of life go down rather than up, and have caught on to the fact that the political system is now solidly stacked against them.
Now, the Republican and Democratic rank and file alike have come to realize that neither party has been serving their interests, and I have to confess to a certain pleasure in watching the stunned blubbering of the party elites and the press as they discover just how out of touch they are with public opinion.
Here's a primer for you, guys:
1. Exporting jobs to low-wage countries like China does not serve the American worker. It drives down wages here.
2. Importing workers from low-wage countries does not serve the American worker. It drives down wages here.
3. As long as legislators have to raise vast sums from special interest groups to get elected, it will not be possible for them to serve the interests of the American worker.
Do you understand, now? Your little tricks don't work any more, because working people are seeing their quality of life go down rather than up, and have caught on to the fact that the political system is now solidly stacked against them.
360
Well written. And not only that, but people are seeing their children saddled with incredible debt to receive a college degree and and then watch as they move back home and are unemployed or underemployed. This generation of kids will be the first not to achieve more than their parents. We are definately sliding backwards and politicians who live in their comfortable glass bubble do not see it. Or chose not to.
185
The House of Representatives was meant to be the branch of government to be responsive to the people. The political philosophy of our government suggests that we should have one rep. For each thirty thousand people. We now have one rep. For each group of eight hundred and fifty thousand people. If you want your House representative to listen to the interests of the community he represents and not large corperate outside interests then the people should have one representive for each thirty thousand people as the constitution says.we haven't added any reps since the 1930's obstensively because there where no more seats left in the Capitol building.
1
Let's not forget to thank the GOP (mostly) for the huge loss of tax revenue due to low taxes and endless loopholes for the wealthy, corporate inversions, welfare and subsidies, and off-shore accounts. Trillions lost in revenue that could be used for schools, infrastructure, police & firefighters, etc.
8
".....neither [Sanders or Trump] has a “super PAC” for big donors to pour money into".
Please! False equivalence strikes again.
Trump has been a household word for decades, has his own money in bucketfuls, and hardly need to use it because of all the free exposure the media bend over backwards to give him. By contrast, Sanders started out his campaign from nothing; and, until it was succeeding too much to be ignored, he was almost blacked out by the media. Nothing new there, though; he has been blacked out for his entire congressional career.
People attracted by the messages of the two have the choice of an authoritarian in the mold of Mussolini (jutting chin and all) and Huey Long, or a genuine man of the people like the Roosevelts.
Please! False equivalence strikes again.
Trump has been a household word for decades, has his own money in bucketfuls, and hardly need to use it because of all the free exposure the media bend over backwards to give him. By contrast, Sanders started out his campaign from nothing; and, until it was succeeding too much to be ignored, he was almost blacked out by the media. Nothing new there, though; he has been blacked out for his entire congressional career.
People attracted by the messages of the two have the choice of an authoritarian in the mold of Mussolini (jutting chin and all) and Huey Long, or a genuine man of the people like the Roosevelts.
259
Sanders is from a very small rural state, in the middle of nowhere, with very little real-world experience. He makes Obama appear competent.
He is really the "Anyone But Hillary" candidate.
He is really the "Anyone But Hillary" candidate.
@mancuroc: Like most Sanders supporters posting online you exist in an ahistorical bubble. The Roosevelts were an elite WASP northeastern family. Franklin Roosevelt was not a "genuine man of the people." He came from New York money. He just happened to believe that government should work for the governed.
Trump is more like Berlusconi than Mussolini.
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"The two movements have significant differences..."
Very significant differences. Bernie Sanders has proposed common-sense solutions to address the serious problems facing our country (and how we are going to pay for ithem.)
Agenda for America - 12 Steps Forward
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/agenda/
1. Rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure (paid for by eliminating the loophole that allows large corporations and the very wealthy to stash their money in the Cayman Islands and other tax havens - about $100 billion is lost each year)
2. Reversing climate change
3. Creating worker co-ops and providing job assistance (paid for by eliminating tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas - about $60 billion is lost each year)
4. Strengthening the trade union movement
5. Raising the minimum wage to a living wage ($15)
6. Pay equity for women workers
7. Trade policies that benefit American workers
8. Making public colleges tuition-free and lowering interest rates for those who currently have loans (paid for by taxing Wall Street speculation)
9. Breaking up the big banks
10. Medicare for all (middle class families will save about $5,000 each year)
11. Expanding Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and nutrition programs
12. Returning to a progressive tax code and eliminating corporate tax loopholes
Very significant differences. Bernie Sanders has proposed common-sense solutions to address the serious problems facing our country (and how we are going to pay for ithem.)
Agenda for America - 12 Steps Forward
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/agenda/
1. Rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure (paid for by eliminating the loophole that allows large corporations and the very wealthy to stash their money in the Cayman Islands and other tax havens - about $100 billion is lost each year)
2. Reversing climate change
3. Creating worker co-ops and providing job assistance (paid for by eliminating tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas - about $60 billion is lost each year)
4. Strengthening the trade union movement
5. Raising the minimum wage to a living wage ($15)
6. Pay equity for women workers
7. Trade policies that benefit American workers
8. Making public colleges tuition-free and lowering interest rates for those who currently have loans (paid for by taxing Wall Street speculation)
9. Breaking up the big banks
10. Medicare for all (middle class families will save about $5,000 each year)
11. Expanding Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and nutrition programs
12. Returning to a progressive tax code and eliminating corporate tax loopholes
335
Everything you state and what Sanders stands for is what the country is lacking and desperately needs, yet, if Bernie Sanders was the democratic Presidential nominee, the Republicans would immediately go in to attack mode by accusing him of massive tax increases, increasing government spending and of course, the usual excuse of increasing regulation that will inhibit the individualism and innovative nature of America. This simplistic attack, as before, will resonate with many voters who will not question what alternatives the Republicans will offer, other than the status quo whom if they are doing OK than nothing should change. Many, uniquely, will to continue to vote against their self-interest.
Unlike much of the other industrialized countries in the world whom view their society somewhat differently, there is a definite unique cultural attitude in America that many Americans understand only the notion that /what is mine is mine and if you cannot cut it, too bad, it is not my obligation to help you or do my part to help improve the country/.
Unlike much of the other industrialized countries in the world whom view their society somewhat differently, there is a definite unique cultural attitude in America that many Americans understand only the notion that /what is mine is mine and if you cannot cut it, too bad, it is not my obligation to help you or do my part to help improve the country/.
1
I can't support free public universities, as I don't think it is financially wise or realistic given our current education system. Unlike most other countries with free or very lost cost universities, we don't group students from a very young age into college or non-college tracks. We are the land of second chances where anyone can go to a four year university regardless of their educational background. Also, the universities in most of these countries are really focused primarily on academics, and don't have all of the expensive extras and administrative costs found at most US schools.
I'd be fine with free community college. Oregon recently implemented a program where the state picks up any tuition costs not paid by financial aid, and loans aren't considered financial aid. Let students show they have what it takes to make it at community college and then transfer to a four year school. Due to the poor quality of many of our K12 schools, many students are simply not ready to attend university and succeed.
I do think we should work towards making public universities more affordable, but besides lowering tuition and/ or offering more financial aid, it may also mean looking closely at some of the drivers of rising tuition.
I'd be fine with free community college. Oregon recently implemented a program where the state picks up any tuition costs not paid by financial aid, and loans aren't considered financial aid. Let students show they have what it takes to make it at community college and then transfer to a four year school. Due to the poor quality of many of our K12 schools, many students are simply not ready to attend university and succeed.
I do think we should work towards making public universities more affordable, but besides lowering tuition and/ or offering more financial aid, it may also mean looking closely at some of the drivers of rising tuition.
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13. Free haircuts for everybody.
4
I honestly hate to say his, but the split seems like the brights vs the dulls. Plotted over the last 30+ years, I find an increasing bewilderment and disappointment in so many of my neighbors. The reelection of Bush, the bile spewed at Obama, most toxically by the likes of several GOP candidates. And now Trump and Cruz in the lead. Who are you people? Do racist and xenophobic baits still, after all these years, work so easily? Many brights are in despair, and I know this sounds elitist, but I just don't know what else to make of it.
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I was thinking of the split in terms of those who get out and occupy and those who stay in and troll.
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They are the same people who know more about the Kardashians than their own elected officials.
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Why should the considerations of being educated and well-informed bring a charge of elitism. My father left school when he was ten and had a hard time with reading, but he kept himself aware of the political issues and cast his vote on the basis of what he knew. The "Know Nothing" party in the 19th Century was an actual organization - today the "know nothings" are people looking for a "leader" and little more.
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