F.S.U. 's behavior is shameful.How can a parent feel comfortable sending their daughter to F.S.U.When a crime is alleged, investigate fully and let the chips fall where they may and punish the guilty. Catering to athletes should be stopped !!
11
Where are the university's Board of Trustees on this matter? It sets policy for the university and is its governing board. Have the trustees been faithful to their fiduciary responsibilities? Have they even spoken out on this issue? Here is an overview statement from the university's website.
"Overview
The FSU Board of Trustees is the 13-member governing board for the University. Allan Bense is the Chair of the Board of Trustees.
The Florida State University Board of Trustees was created in 2001 and is the public body corporate of the university. It sets policy for the institution and serves as the institution's legal owner and governing board. The Board of Trustees is responsible for high quality education programs within the laws of the State of Florida and Regulations of the Florida Board of Governors. The Board of Trustees holds the institution's resources in trust and is responsible for their efficient and effective use. The thirteen member Board of Trustees is composed of six members appointed by the Governor, five members appointed by the Florida Board of Governors, the Chair of the Faculty Senate and the President of the Student Body."
The trustees are listed by name. Sure they would like to hear from FSU alumni and the general public reminding them of their responsibilities.
"Overview
The FSU Board of Trustees is the 13-member governing board for the University. Allan Bense is the Chair of the Board of Trustees.
The Florida State University Board of Trustees was created in 2001 and is the public body corporate of the university. It sets policy for the institution and serves as the institution's legal owner and governing board. The Board of Trustees is responsible for high quality education programs within the laws of the State of Florida and Regulations of the Florida Board of Governors. The Board of Trustees holds the institution's resources in trust and is responsible for their efficient and effective use. The thirteen member Board of Trustees is composed of six members appointed by the Governor, five members appointed by the Florida Board of Governors, the Chair of the Faculty Senate and the President of the Student Body."
The trustees are listed by name. Sure they would like to hear from FSU alumni and the general public reminding them of their responsibilities.
6
One disgusting school
6
Anyone surprised? Football is America's religion, and violence against women--domestic abuse, assault, rape--is its sacrament.
6
That is one messed up school and administration
5
If one can push aside all of the invective and innuendo, the facts that stand out are: legal fees $1,700,000, cost of settlement $950,000. Why would the university not take the settlement? Assuming Kinsman's lawyers ran up the same level of fees, they really took a beating.
3
The sports writers on the Times continually bashed the Lacrosse students at Duke even after it became obvious it was all a lie. They deserved an apology. Still waiting.
4
did U know that Colleges with a good football program and team have a 4% higher enrollment and at $40,000 -/+ a year and lets see 4% of 41,000 students is oh about 1600 more at $40,000.00 a year is hmmmm 61,000,000.00 not bad . a joke all for the money , keep up the schools good name , if it was one of my daughters I would do something humiliating and public to both the school the bucks and winston. So U don't have to have money to get away with things U just have to be money for someone else hmmm a joke no ethics teach the kids that U can sweep things under the rug regardless of how terrible it is
1
A motto for Florida State University:
"Athletic achievement matters more than the students’ safety"
"Athletic achievement matters more than the students’ safety"
6
Between their politicians and their football obsession, remember Da U and their criminal program, I can hardly wait for Florida to return to where it belongs, UNDERWATER!
And with their elected leaders ignorant, unabashed enthusiasm and help, that's exactly where they'll be...but not soon enough.
Hard to tell just who is more disgusting, the "student athlete" or the university president.
And with their elected leaders ignorant, unabashed enthusiasm and help, that's exactly where they'll be...but not soon enough.
Hard to tell just who is more disgusting, the "student athlete" or the university president.
6
The only values at FSU is football money. The "S" in FSU should be changed to $. Everything else at that "institution" is secondary to football and $.
3
Thanks for this reporting. All you are saying here seeps into high school programs as well and is a large factor in the abuse women encounter every day from so many sources in our society. Please keep the heat on.
12
When did Florida start appointing politician to head its main public universities?
I remembered Koch brothers put up some money to appoint their own kind
faculties to FSU. With a few exceptions, bad schools seem to have good
football teams, as football really doesn't have anything in common with the
other missions of a university. Hope this FSU isn't heading towards the same fate with another FSU: Former Soviet Union.
I remembered Koch brothers put up some money to appoint their own kind
faculties to FSU. With a few exceptions, bad schools seem to have good
football teams, as football really doesn't have anything in common with the
other missions of a university. Hope this FSU isn't heading towards the same fate with another FSU: Former Soviet Union.
6
TK Wetherhill former politician and ex-pres. of FSU on how to stop the star QB under Bobby Bowden from running up parking tickets for parking in handicapped spaces "Run'em till he pukes." Frank Brogan -- ex-lieutenant governor of FL -- leapt from that job to president of Florida Atlantic University -- with a huge increase in pay and a new $3 million president's mansion to sweeten the deal -- this happened a few months after he and Jebbie Bush had been re-elected governor and lt. governor of FL. This politician to university pres. trend began during the Jeb Bush reign as FL governor. Bush has no respect for education and worked for eight years to weaken the public schools of FL by handing tax dollars to any fly by night charter or voucher or cyber school that showed up for a handout. No surprise that another pol is now head of FSU where everything is for sale including the economics faculty chair to the Koch brothers with the codicil that they can name the person who sits in that chair.
6
The College of Charleston did the same thing not too long ago (Glenn McConnell). It's mind-boggling.
3
Why the big surprise? North Fl., is really South GA. Good old boys don't reach adulthood until they are 50. By then their cognitive wiring is about raising another 'good ole boy'. It is a shame that the hundreds or even thousands of examples of Southern male thought process stays the same.
5
It's not fair (or accurate) to label this a "southern" thing. "Missoula" is Jon Krakauer's book about sexual assault in a northern Rockies city. It's worth reading (or listening to in my case - I do better with audio books since the Internet robbed me of my attention span). Sports at all levels seems increasingly associated with sexual assault. It's a sad thing.
4
Is anyone commenting willing to admit any possibility that FSU and Winston are the victims here? Why is a girl on campus making an allegation the de facto victim, and the accused the de facto guilty party? "The Hunting Ground" docudrama is a false narrative at best, and at worst, it exploits a campus "crises" that does not exist. We have seen so many high profile campus rape accusations turn out false, that anyone - including Mr. Nocera - who isn't at least skeptical, should have their judgement questioned. And please don't tell me that "I'm blaming the victim" for having this opinion.
5
It's hard to tell when no one in a position of power, who is supposed to be objective, bothered to investigate. No one was particularly interested in learning the truth -- makes you wonder if it was because the truth would have been an embarrassment to the university and a threat to the only thing it and the surrounding community values: Football.
2
Actually, you are blaming the the victim -- by perpetuating the myth that most accusations are false and attempting to refocus this issue on the accuser. The article details how an investigation was completely botched, likely because it involved an accusation against an FSU footballer. As a result, the truth may never be known. The lack of respect for women, their sexuality and their credibility is the issue at hand. The truth is that false accusations in rape happen as often as other crimes. There is not an epidemic of false rape accusations as many would like to believe, neither is this "epidemic" of college sexual assault new. What is new is women's willingness to report crimes despite the overy loud opinions of people like you.
14
To continue the story...we now have a man (hardly an accurate description, more like a rat) running for president whose views about & treatment of women are so hateful they make Florida State's Thrasher look like a minor devil. The rat's behavior is enabling the Thrashers of the world to continue ignoring crimes against women & in fact encourages that ignorance, if not the crimes themselves.
16
"Athletic achievement matters more than the students’ safety. If Thrasher had been honest, that’s what he would have said in his statement."
What a great closing sentence.
What a great closing sentence.
7
This is simply another example of how money corrupts and how big time football programs have gotten completely out of control. As I read this piece I was reminded of the Ray Rice assault of his then girlfriend. The initial response from the NFL was a two game suspension. Had there not been a video of the incident that would have been the end of it.
Here you had a rape allegation, evidence that disappeared and Florida State football couldn't even bring themselves to suspend Winston for a single game, pending the outcome of the investigation. And the idea that 'boosters' would pay the legal fees means that they have become the get out of jail free card for star athletes.
So what do students at the university learn from all this? Money controls everything, justice is secondary, if important at all, the stars in our society count for a lot more than the rest of us and women are still second class citizen's. I'm sure every professor at Florida State is proud to teach these values in their classroom.
Here you had a rape allegation, evidence that disappeared and Florida State football couldn't even bring themselves to suspend Winston for a single game, pending the outcome of the investigation. And the idea that 'boosters' would pay the legal fees means that they have become the get out of jail free card for star athletes.
So what do students at the university learn from all this? Money controls everything, justice is secondary, if important at all, the stars in our society count for a lot more than the rest of us and women are still second class citizen's. I'm sure every professor at Florida State is proud to teach these values in their classroom.
6
Bottom line up front: The NYT coverage of this story has been, and continues to be, distorted and full of omissions of facts. For those without the time or interest to read the significant prima facie evidence, which paints a much more nuanced picture of the facts of the case than you'll find here, you may read this counter argument to what appears to be agenda-driven reporting: http://www.realclearsports.com/articles/2015/02/17/new_york_times_and_ja...
Full disclosure, I am an FSU alumnus. No doubt the initial police investigation was flawed (though not as pathetic as painted by the NYT) and FSU's administration mishandled aspects of its response. And the behavior of some "fans" toward the alleged victim was reprehensible and an embarrassment. Still, multiple investigations took place, and they found plenty of exculpatory evidence favoring Mr. Winston's version of the encounter, evidence which is inexplicably omitted in the NYT's numerous reports on this case. Why? The best explanation is that Mr. Winston's fame (an eventual Heisman Trophy winner and top NFL draft pick), admitted immaturity and missteps in other incidents, and FSU's top tier football program offered the Times the necessary archetype to tell an important story of enabled athletes and sexual assult on college campuses. The only problem is that much evidence (yes, evidence) suggests Mr. Winston is innocent of the alleged crime.
Full disclosure, I am an FSU alumnus. No doubt the initial police investigation was flawed (though not as pathetic as painted by the NYT) and FSU's administration mishandled aspects of its response. And the behavior of some "fans" toward the alleged victim was reprehensible and an embarrassment. Still, multiple investigations took place, and they found plenty of exculpatory evidence favoring Mr. Winston's version of the encounter, evidence which is inexplicably omitted in the NYT's numerous reports on this case. Why? The best explanation is that Mr. Winston's fame (an eventual Heisman Trophy winner and top NFL draft pick), admitted immaturity and missteps in other incidents, and FSU's top tier football program offered the Times the necessary archetype to tell an important story of enabled athletes and sexual assult on college campuses. The only problem is that much evidence (yes, evidence) suggests Mr. Winston is innocent of the alleged crime.
6
And you chose to ignore the key fact here: there was no investigation for over a year after the incident was reported. The judg couldn't tell which version was true because there was no evidence available by the time they got to cour. All that's asked for is for an investigation to be conducted when an accusation is made.
9
a joke all for the money , keep up the schools good name , if it was one of my daughters I would do something humiliating and public to both the school the bucks and winston. So U don't have to have money to get away with things U just have to be money for someone else hmmm a joke no ethics teach the kids that U can sweep things under the rug regardless of how terrible it is
1
My wife and I are both FSU graduates. We loved our time there and our Master's degrees in Library and Information Science and Counseling have served us well. We arrived at FSU in 1975, the same year Bobby Bowden was hired to coach the football team. Until recently, we were always proud of our school. Now when we get calls from the alumni office asking for donations we respond that we cannot, in good conscience, give to a misogynist school that coddles rapists and denigrates their victims.
25
Another bogus hit piece on Florida State by a NYT columnist. Not surprising. Anyone, and I mean anyone who has read all of the evidence, listened to the audio depositions of Kinsman's own friends, and followed the timeline of exactly when this all happened, when it went public knows the truth: This is, was, and always has been about $$ and extorting a settlement out of of Florida State and Winston. This settlement is peanuts and I don't believe those extornionist hack attorney's Klune & Co that they didn't get the lions share of the settlement. They probably told Kinsman's family that they weren't going to throw any more of their time on this loser of a case and that they'd better take the settlement offer. The fact that FSU settled is so predictable it's hilarious. I hope Winston doesn't settle and goes to trial and puts Kinsman on the stand where her 7 different versions of her story and her lies are exposed for all to see.
7
This opinion is so disgusting that I can't help but wonder how it cleared the moderator.
8
I have nothing but contempt for all those who criticize the abuses and violence inherent in NFL and Big Time College football and then continue to buy tickets and watch games on TV. They are morally complicit and part of the problem.
5
And you're surprised? Would you expect otherwise?
"Kinsman was shunned by her fellow students, called a slut and a whore and a liar, and essentially forced off campus as the football-mad student body rallied around its quarterback..."
You know --
We read stories in the Times on other topics - most notably politics, religion, or politically-charged areas, such as gun control - and we read snide and acerbic comments, blaming the problems on a certain section of society - such as "Evangelical Christians" - or "Right-Wing Patriots"...
But we also see many stories in the Times like this one - where there is a system of on-campus crime - often consisting of sexual abuse, fueled by the free flow and excessive flow of alcohol - and the collegiate system which has a very high investment in deflecting, denying and sweeping under the rug any event which might stain their football-generated revenue stream --
In fact - the universities actually encourage and help perpetuate this system - with the few people may be harmed considered unfortunate casualties...
And yet - Nobody ever blames the system of "Frat Boys and Frat Girls" whom - like right-wing zealots at a pro-gun rally - scream in delight while pouring beer down their throats and on each other in a frenzy of Felliniesque hedonism as they cheer their "student athletes" on to victory -- student athletes most of these people would have nothing to do with at any other time in their lives --
And - woe to the person who is harmed, and refuses to douse their pain in another beer...
You know --
We read stories in the Times on other topics - most notably politics, religion, or politically-charged areas, such as gun control - and we read snide and acerbic comments, blaming the problems on a certain section of society - such as "Evangelical Christians" - or "Right-Wing Patriots"...
But we also see many stories in the Times like this one - where there is a system of on-campus crime - often consisting of sexual abuse, fueled by the free flow and excessive flow of alcohol - and the collegiate system which has a very high investment in deflecting, denying and sweeping under the rug any event which might stain their football-generated revenue stream --
In fact - the universities actually encourage and help perpetuate this system - with the few people may be harmed considered unfortunate casualties...
And yet - Nobody ever blames the system of "Frat Boys and Frat Girls" whom - like right-wing zealots at a pro-gun rally - scream in delight while pouring beer down their throats and on each other in a frenzy of Felliniesque hedonism as they cheer their "student athletes" on to victory -- student athletes most of these people would have nothing to do with at any other time in their lives --
And - woe to the person who is harmed, and refuses to douse their pain in another beer...
2
I was a scholarship athlete at FSU 45 years ago, and the only thing that is different is that at least this time there are some (admittedly inadequate) consequences to the school--but of course, not the perpetrator. It should come as no surprise that college football (and basketball) players are treated differently than other students and athletes. It's always been about the money, and always will be about the money. Money will forever trample students' rights. I would always caution any young woman at a football school to stay away from the athletes if they want to be safe. Otherwise--no matter what FSU or other schools say they will do--they will find themselves in a similar situation to Kinsman.
3
You know, I remember very well the first football game FSU played in the ACC at Georgia Tech. I thought the FSU fans were obnoxious and poor sports, especially when they won. Gracious winners they weren't.
My thought at the time was that it was a big, fat mistake to bring FSU into the ACC fold, because up to that point you could—could—make a case that the ACC was populated by more "gentlemen scholars" than not. With FSU's arrival, the bloom was off the rose. How could a school like Wake Forest compete with a behemoth like FSU? (And why would it want to?) I didn't miss a home Tech basketball game from that year through '99, and saw the likes of Stephon Marbury enter and exit Tech's portals, but, in my opinion, it was a big mistake for the ACC to open the door to FSU.
My thought at the time was that it was a big, fat mistake to bring FSU into the ACC fold, because up to that point you could—could—make a case that the ACC was populated by more "gentlemen scholars" than not. With FSU's arrival, the bloom was off the rose. How could a school like Wake Forest compete with a behemoth like FSU? (And why would it want to?) I didn't miss a home Tech basketball game from that year through '99, and saw the likes of Stephon Marbury enter and exit Tech's portals, but, in my opinion, it was a big mistake for the ACC to open the door to FSU.
2
What happened to the very American concept of 'innocent until proven guilty?" There were NO changes brought and certainly no conviction! Should there be a lower standard to prosecute a black man when he is accused of a crime with a sexual connotation? The settlement decision was to save money compared with a lengthy trial.
1
I'm sure Florida State's new efforts at preventing sexual assault on campus will work fine, as long as the person accused of the assault is not an important player on their football team . . . if and when it is, they and the Tallahassee police will find a way to ignore and/or whitewash the whole thing away, just as they did with Winston.
In fact, it seems the safest thing a black man in Florida can be is a talented athlete at one of the big universities. Otherwise, it's not even safe to walk to the corner store to get an iced tea (see Martin, Trayvon).
In fact, it seems the safest thing a black man in Florida can be is a talented athlete at one of the big universities. Otherwise, it's not even safe to walk to the corner store to get an iced tea (see Martin, Trayvon).
1
“F.S.U. has instituted a handful of prevention, training and awareness programs that would never have been introduced without this case,”
Gad, what must have the place been like 'before?'
'To my daughters,
I'm sorry my lovelies, but Florida State U. is also stricken from the 'the list of potentials'...college campuses are dangerous enough places for women, but this published attitude of theirs, well, noway can I, in good conscience, send daughters whom I love more than life itself to a place harboring such an attitude. Unfortunately, by the scattered accounts, this type of scandal seems to be systemic with 'football mania' schools.
Can an undergraduate degree from a prestigious college, even though not a football 'powerhouse,' be really so bad dear daughters of mine?
Your worrisome Father'
Gad, what must have the place been like 'before?'
'To my daughters,
I'm sorry my lovelies, but Florida State U. is also stricken from the 'the list of potentials'...college campuses are dangerous enough places for women, but this published attitude of theirs, well, noway can I, in good conscience, send daughters whom I love more than life itself to a place harboring such an attitude. Unfortunately, by the scattered accounts, this type of scandal seems to be systemic with 'football mania' schools.
Can an undergraduate degree from a prestigious college, even though not a football 'powerhouse,' be really so bad dear daughters of mine?
Your worrisome Father'
1
Joe Nocera, I would have you look at just one piece of evidence and ask you to make your own conclusion.
Kinsman identified Winston's roommate, Chris Casher, as a football player she met in the bar that evening. Though she shared a cab ride with him and he is the accused of making a cell phone video of their encounter, she never identified him as being there.
That was a viable excuse when she claimed she had been drugged, but after there were no traces of any drugs found in her system(a twice tested sample) and she was no where near even a legal discription of intoxicated, she claimed she was forced into the cab.
If you can get me past this one piece of evidence, you will find me a cohort in your disgust.
I beg, beg, beg you to respond. Make me your lege.
Kinsman identified Winston's roommate, Chris Casher, as a football player she met in the bar that evening. Though she shared a cab ride with him and he is the accused of making a cell phone video of their encounter, she never identified him as being there.
That was a viable excuse when she claimed she had been drugged, but after there were no traces of any drugs found in her system(a twice tested sample) and she was no where near even a legal discription of intoxicated, she claimed she was forced into the cab.
If you can get me past this one piece of evidence, you will find me a cohort in your disgust.
I beg, beg, beg you to respond. Make me your lege.
3
Is this an Op-Ed piece or a news article? I am confused.
1
What ever happened to the standard that someone who has been drinking is unable to consent because their mind is impaired? Courts have used this standard to convict many young males of sexual assault, if not rape. Guess it doesn't apply at FSU. Very sad that sports trumps student safety.
This is about cultural change, and not just from the university's side, changing the culture of idolizing athletes and informing them of appropriate behavior.
But what is happening on the side of informing these girls of what appropriate behavior is? Does the culture inform them of that, do their parents?
What on earth was this young woman thinking, to be alone in a bar drinking with three men and then leave to go wherever it is that she went with them? Alcohol was involved, so judgments can become impaired, and that is why it is important to decide upon appropriate behavior before drinking. That is why it was easier to dismiss her complaint, and that might have been why it took her time to process and realize what had happened to her.
She was alone with these athletes, men who can be scary and intimidating even under normal circumstances, much less when they were in a group with a woman and they had been drinking. Where was her sense of self preservation? Had she never been taught it? Was she taught to be "nice," and thus ignore her instincts? Had she been taught and then decided to ignore the advice of her elders, who were obviously silly and lame?
But what is happening on the side of informing these girls of what appropriate behavior is? Does the culture inform them of that, do their parents?
What on earth was this young woman thinking, to be alone in a bar drinking with three men and then leave to go wherever it is that she went with them? Alcohol was involved, so judgments can become impaired, and that is why it is important to decide upon appropriate behavior before drinking. That is why it was easier to dismiss her complaint, and that might have been why it took her time to process and realize what had happened to her.
She was alone with these athletes, men who can be scary and intimidating even under normal circumstances, much less when they were in a group with a woman and they had been drinking. Where was her sense of self preservation? Had she never been taught it? Was she taught to be "nice," and thus ignore her instincts? Had she been taught and then decided to ignore the advice of her elders, who were obviously silly and lame?
The accusation made by the author of this article that the reason the prosecutor Willie Meggs didn't prosecute the case was because of the Tallahassee Police departments mishandling of the case is complete rubbish. Contact Mr. Megs office and ask him directly if thats why he didn't move the case forward or was it because after completing an extensive investigation of the plaintiffs allegations including interviewing all the wittinesses involved, the physical evidence and evaluating Ms Kinsman's credibility a process in which it became clear that because of the numerous inconsistencies in her story and revisions most which did match up to any of the physical evidence or witness statements he knew the case was a loser and had no chance if presented to a jury.
Love to hear what he has to say about that in fact keep reading because i have a feeling he will be responding himself to the false accusations made by the times in this piece.
This case has always been about this girl collecting money and getting paid large and $950,000 is a nice start for her and her attorneys who will now turn their attention to a bigger payday toward Mr. Winston after shaking down FSU.
Love to hear what he has to say about that in fact keep reading because i have a feeling he will be responding himself to the false accusations made by the times in this piece.
This case has always been about this girl collecting money and getting paid large and $950,000 is a nice start for her and her attorneys who will now turn their attention to a bigger payday toward Mr. Winston after shaking down FSU.
1
As someone very familiar with this case it pains me to see how once again readers have been misled by the NY Times who have completly misrepresented the facts of this case on several previous occasions. This is just another opinion piece by the NY Times in which they have presented a biased opinion piece as a news product. Here is just one new example of how the NY Times continues to cover this story in a manipulative way so that the article fits their narrative and leaves out important facts. The author insinuates that the Defendant was motivted to settle because depositions had been set in the coming weeks in which Mr. Winston would have to for the first time be forced to publicly testify about what happened during his encounter with Ms. kinsman. Interesting and how fox news of them to leave out that the plaintiff herself Ms. Kinsman in fact was scheduled to give her deposition under oath the very next day before the settelment was reached. A process in which for the very first time she would be examined under oath and under the penalty of perjury be held accountable for her statements and allegations made against the defendent FSU in this case.
2
Florida state has a long history of supporting football players who commit crimes. For a non-sexual offender, research Deion Sanders. But then the pros do the same, look at the rape case involving Roethlisberger where the DA would not even arrest him. I guess he was afraid after seeing what happened to another DA who tried the case involving Ray Lewis, who was allowed to plead guilty to misdemeanor probation in a double murder case, then when Lewis took the stand the DA did not even know how to impeach him with statements made to the DA and his investigators.
So football players get a bye from colleges and from DAs and from pro teams. Money talks. Victims don't stand a chance. Remember when Kentucky did not prosecute a basketball player/rapist until after he went pro in another state and was caught for another rape? Where he did get tried and convicted (DA before the present one who had the Ray Lewis case). But then that DA gave a bye to a tv actor in a sex case.
So football players get a bye from colleges and from DAs and from pro teams. Money talks. Victims don't stand a chance. Remember when Kentucky did not prosecute a basketball player/rapist until after he went pro in another state and was caught for another rape? Where he did get tried and convicted (DA before the present one who had the Ray Lewis case). But then that DA gave a bye to a tv actor in a sex case.
In its zeal to congratulate itself on its comprehensive investigation, the Times appears to have ignored that In December 2012, Winston was a nobody. He was not the starting quarterback and did not start until September, 2013.
The Times also overlooks that after reporting the alleged rape to the police, the alleged victim pointedly refused to cooperate with authorities until Winston was on the cusp of playing for the national championship more than one year later.
The Times, in the best tradition of "kick them while they are down" malign the police for a flawed investigation. What, pray tell, should the police have done after promptly interviewing the alleged victim, other potential witnesses and gathering physical evidence when the alleged victim refused to cooperate. No police agency can afford to devote time and resources to a case that can't be prosecuted because the alleged victim won't participate in the process.
And since when has the Times abandoned the presumption of innocence of the 5th amendment. "Lawyering up" is not a crime or a wrongful act as the giant law firm the Times keeps on speed dial will attest.
When there was a Title IX hearing using the rules stacked against the accused, the alleged victim could not meet the laughlingly low bar to establish responsibility for the act alleged.
Allow me to suggest that if Winston had not quarterbacked a highly successful team, the Times would not have wasted one nanosecond of time on these events.
The Times also overlooks that after reporting the alleged rape to the police, the alleged victim pointedly refused to cooperate with authorities until Winston was on the cusp of playing for the national championship more than one year later.
The Times, in the best tradition of "kick them while they are down" malign the police for a flawed investigation. What, pray tell, should the police have done after promptly interviewing the alleged victim, other potential witnesses and gathering physical evidence when the alleged victim refused to cooperate. No police agency can afford to devote time and resources to a case that can't be prosecuted because the alleged victim won't participate in the process.
And since when has the Times abandoned the presumption of innocence of the 5th amendment. "Lawyering up" is not a crime or a wrongful act as the giant law firm the Times keeps on speed dial will attest.
When there was a Title IX hearing using the rules stacked against the accused, the alleged victim could not meet the laughlingly low bar to establish responsibility for the act alleged.
Allow me to suggest that if Winston had not quarterbacked a highly successful team, the Times would not have wasted one nanosecond of time on these events.
4
article places times w TMZ for credibility.start w this quote- "though some fsu football players have been suspended or thrown off team for disciplinary reasons in recent years, the examples found were marginal players." #1- Greg Reid-GA high school player of decade and 5 star recruit. Led nation in 09 in total punt return yards and mvp of 2010 peach bowl- arrested for drugs/dismissed from FSU. #2- A.J. Nicholson- Drafted from FSU to NFL. Started 2 years/led team in tackles 2 years. Suspended from team for Orange Bowl in final game of career. #3. Fred Rouse- #2 wide receiver in country out of high school. 5 star recruit/starter in Orange bowl- kicked off team for failing drug test ( later arrested after transferring to Valdosta). #4. Preston Parker. 2nd team all acc reciever later drafted to NFL. Led team in catches/all purpose yards. Failed drug test/suspended 2 games. got a dui and dismissed from FSU. #5. Nigel Carr- Played 13 games sophomore year- slated to be starter/named teams most dependable linebacker. Drafted to Ravens. dismissed from FSU after arrest. #6. Peter warrick- #1 high school receiver in country. Named 1st team ncaa all american. Leading in heisman race, warrick recives $20 discount for shopping. This is ncaa rules violation and is suspended two games costing him heisman trophy. #7. Randy Moss- NFL hall of famer. Moss dismissed from FSU for violating probation after he smoked a joint. Im no journalist but I was able to find this in 3 minutes w a search.
2
Such is the toxic cycle of exploitation around football on college campuses. Players are recruited as "student athletes", yet often do not receive the education they are promised. They receive no salary, but make millions for schools in marketing, millions for media, etc. etc. They risk their bodies & concussions. In exchange for this exploitation, they receive impunity in regards to following laws and are generally celebrated by all as heroes, students, town alike. This leads to, in some cases, the exploitation of other students or women, who are less likely to receive justice if they happen to become victims at the hands of said players. While the student body may cheer and celebrate their team, they are exploited as well when their tuition dollars and debt are made to subsidize the sports program. This is a messy messy business and underscores the corrosive influence of sports and money on the real mission of universities -- education.
2
Division I American College Football seems to inflict its schools and their administrations with a mental illness that turns them (in this case) into misogynists. Their teams are so important to the school's image and to its finances (alum pony up lots of money to support the team) that academic records fall by the wayside and anything that interferes with the team's success is treated as a cancer or virus to be obliterated from existence.
The saddest part of all this is how the Tallahassee Police Department seemed more concerned with a star football player than a woman who said she was raped. I wonder if the force would have felt the same way if the woman was one of their daughters?
I wish that US Football used the same system as baseball does and had farm teams outside of academia. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't hear storied about college baseball players like I do about college football players.
Personally, I prefer my school's men's gymnastics and lacrosse teams. Those guys are in fabulous shape and are no wienies. Interestingly enough, they have great GPAs too--many if them in STEM majors. And they seem to avoid the kind of negative behaviors that US football unconsciously breeds.
The saddest part of all this is how the Tallahassee Police Department seemed more concerned with a star football player than a woman who said she was raped. I wonder if the force would have felt the same way if the woman was one of their daughters?
I wish that US Football used the same system as baseball does and had farm teams outside of academia. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't hear storied about college baseball players like I do about college football players.
Personally, I prefer my school's men's gymnastics and lacrosse teams. Those guys are in fabulous shape and are no wienies. Interestingly enough, they have great GPAs too--many if them in STEM majors. And they seem to avoid the kind of negative behaviors that US football unconsciously breeds.
7
Many comments in this whole section demonstrate that many don't know the whole story. Which is understandable if readers relied solely on the NYT slanted reporting. In your comments, if you knew the whole story, you would know Jameis Winston was not a "star player" at the time of the incident. In fact, he was a "redshirt freshman," meaning he held a clipboard and only practiced with the team sitting behind several older and more experienced players. Sure he was a prized recruit... as was his teammate and fellow freshman, Jacob Coker, who recently won a national championship at Alabama. The point: there aren't as many reasons for a massive cover-up as most (who don't know the full story) assume.
1
Fantastic. Then I am certain you, and other lacrosse fans will provide the financial support that will go missing when big time football and basketball are forced out of universities.
1
The College of Engineering receives no financial support from the football and basketball programs.
The School of Medicine does get patients to practice on when things go awry...
The School of Medicine does get patients to practice on when things go awry...
What do you expect from a high-octane politician? He's conforming to profile. Trasher's appointment is nothing more than patronage. And those in the know recognize the sea change in FSU football since Bobby Bowden left as head coach. FSU should be standing taller than it is currently. What a sad state of affairs, administratively and athletically.
6
I know a young woman who was one of the best volleyball players in the country. She went to Long Beach State, where she injured her knee. Long Beach State made it clear she was no longer welcome. Florida State gave her a second chance. She did not disappoint. Florida State did all the right things by her. I suspect their athletic department is both good and bad. Those who think Florida State is the worst of the worst are probably overlooking a dozen storries like that of this woman.
2
Between bad actors in nation wide Police Departments, campus crime that is hidden, and political corruption, especially here in New York State government, our nation seems stuck in some bygone, backwards era. What is going on?
College football offers the best players a way to get into the NFL. Also, it is a source of bragging rights for the alumni. I suspect that less than 1% of college football players get into trouble with the police. I suspect that college football players have a graduation rate higher than the general student body. I suspect that most college football players would "do it all again" if they had the chance.
I was only able to play football in PE classes. It was one of many activities that contributed to my development.
I was only able to play football in PE classes. It was one of many activities that contributed to my development.
2
I would like to see the Ivy League leave the NCAA. These eight schools run competitive athletic programs with true students and without athletic scholarships. Big-time NCAA sports no longer has anything to do with the mission of a university.
29
Furthermore, most of these "student athletes" on top football and basketball teams are large violent men who are on campus only because they were recruited for being large and violent. The campus authorities bear much responsibility for exposing normal students to hand-picked football and basketball players.
11
Wow. Judge much? You should be ashamed. For some of those "large, violent men", college sports are path to success Google Warrick Dunn. And then apologize for your generalizations about football players.
1
It's not just Division 1 football and basketball. College ice hockey has a terrible, though well deserved reputation for rape and abuse.
3
There is a sexism dynamic at play here. There is also a racism dynamic. He is black and she is white. Apparently, the prevailing view is that we should pretend that race doesn't matter. But it does.
2
Forgive the correction - the young lady was black. I guess, as you wrote, racism was indeed at play, but not quite as you suggested... Makes you wonder what would have happened if the victim had been white and from a well-to-do family. In the future, you might want to have your facts straight before you pull the "race card" from your hand.
This incident (before it even blew up) was the reason my child isn't at FSU and why my other high school student will not be attending in a few years....until schools like FSU put their students safety first, no way would I consider putting my child there-don't care how great of a football team, or even how great their academic programs are-their priorities are screwed up and Thrasher is the screwdriver
26
Bottom line watch The Hunting Ground Documentary. Yes the CNN documentary. It was about many colleges, many women and men and you leave the theater in absolute horror..angry..frustrated..tears of emotion.I found it sad and the fact that FSU continues to morally attack Ms Kinsman with staff that have no moral conscience..despicable..
16
Have you read the SA report?
1
That documentary has been widley criticized as rubbish. Google some of the critics of it. Lets just say it wont be winning any awards for honesty or even handed presentaion of facts . I must admit however that i myself used to put a lot of trust into the the information published in the times until this case happened and as someone with extensive first hand knowledge of this case because of what i do for a living i have been astounded at the false information that the times continues to present in their articles about this case. Its actually at the level of national inquire type journalism. Its sad because it now makes me question the accuracy of everything i have ever read from this news source. I only wish everyone could have this experience of having first hand knowledge of a case written about by the times and being able to compare what they write to what you actually know to be the factual truth. What a eye opener. It makes you feel abandoned and lied to by a long time dear and old friend. Makes you questiion everything you ever read that they published. i am acutally ashamed that i cast judgement about people in the past and formed opinions on events and public figures over the years at times because of what i read in the times. My bad. Trust no one who writes anything without verification of the facts and a complete understanding of the narative they are promoting. The times has simply become a liberal version of Fox news.
2
I've read all the police reports. It's quite obvious this woman is a false accuser.
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/12/5/5179678/pdf-full-police-report-r...
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/12/5/5179678/pdf-full-police-report-r...
1
It's FLORIDA folks - when is the last time anything sensible came out of that state?
9
College football is a corrupt criminal conspiracy.
It makes the NFL look like a monastery
It makes the NFL look like a monastery
8
Those who reviewed the case found that there wasn't enough evidence to decide what happened. We all know that women consistently get the shaft in these cases. But folks who understand the law know that you need bundles of evidence to bring charges. Many of us believe something terribly bad happened. In these circumstances, the university is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't think you can expect them to act like something wrong happened when the experts, themselves, can't say.
5
The video evidence was stolen. The investigators didn't investigate. Of course, there won't be enough evidence. That was the point.
15
But you should be able to expect them to act with a little class.
2
No evidence was "lost". Long before the accused was identified, the accuser was checked out in the hospital. She did not have head injuries (as she first claimed). She was not drugged (as she secondly claimed). She was not drunk (her third claim). She did have two sets of semen on her body, and indeed, one of those was Winston's. That happens when you have consensual sex.
The only evidence supporting kinsman is her claim. That's it. Her word
Why would her claim weigh more than Winston's assertion that it was consensual? Why would it weigh more that Winston's assertion plus Casher and Darby's statement that it was consensual?
According to a SAO and a former state Supreme Court justice, it wouldn't.
The only evidence supporting kinsman is her claim. That's it. Her word
Why would her claim weigh more than Winston's assertion that it was consensual? Why would it weigh more that Winston's assertion plus Casher and Darby's statement that it was consensual?
According to a SAO and a former state Supreme Court justice, it wouldn't.
1
I was an instructor at a Florida University. Often I was asked by parents to recommend a university. My standard response was "send them up North, and to a school with a losing football team. Preferably one with no football team."
Now that Winston is in the NFL, I expect to see more of this.
Now that Winston is in the NFL, I expect to see more of this.
25
Yeah, ok. Cool story bro.
3
Fantastic advice if you want your children indoctrinated with the same believe everything you hear and read from only a singular point-of-view.
1
Yes! Columbia.
What is telling is that if that video had NOT been of a rape but of a consensual encounter, it would not have been deleted but shared I'm sure to prove that their precious star was not guilty. I hate everything about this especially since the victim was additionally abused by administration and fellow students. Completely disgusting. Parents - think twice and three times before your children apply to college. Your child might be considered disposable if he or she is not a moneymaker for the institution!
10
What is telling is that the only place you have ever been able to view the ENTIRE Tallahassee Police Department report and the ENTIRE State's Attorney Report are on sites that defend Jameis Winston. The NYT repeatedly submits the claim that TPD stymied the investigation when it is clear from dated legal documents that the accuser was the one that was unwilling to pursue the investigation until 11 months AFTER the incident took place and Jameis Winston became the front-runner for the Heisman Trophy. Look for the facts! Don't be a sheep and buy whatever the establishment feeds you. http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/270/files/2014/12/Newlins-I...
7
Who was in the best position to know if kinsman soberly and willingly and with s smile got into the taxi with Winston, Casher, and Darby? Her fellow students. When they turned in her, that spoke volumes.
4 , that's F O U R independent and separate investigations found, at the least, zero criminal conduct and, at the most, not enough to the case to even bring to trial, much less to convict Winston. The Times has been so reluctant to move on from this story and, from its first article to its last, the reporters have shown zero journalistic objectivity and portray a student body of 40 K as enthusiastic supporters of sexual assault. I'm an alumni and many things about college athletics, and problems with the football program at my alma mater in particular, infuriate and at times repel me. But the young man was investigated for 2 years, in a part of the country that has never shied away from throwing the book at young men of color, athletes or not. To the Mr Nocera I ask: your headline says "... What about the students?". Jameis Winston WAS a student so I ask you- how many times should he be investigated before you find something better to write about?
10
Ben, was this the "young man" who shoplifted all that seafood?
I mean, shoplifting isn't exactly rape, but what happened about that? Was the book thrown at him because, as you so elegantly put it, he's a "young man of color"? Let's see, he was quoted by ESPN saying, "I realize that I am in the public spotlight and my conduct needs to be above reproach...."
I bet no one was more surprised than he was when those cops showed up at his door.
A role model he ain't.
I mean, shoplifting isn't exactly rape, but what happened about that? Was the book thrown at him because, as you so elegantly put it, he's a "young man of color"? Let's see, he was quoted by ESPN saying, "I realize that I am in the public spotlight and my conduct needs to be above reproach...."
I bet no one was more surprised than he was when those cops showed up at his door.
A role model he ain't.
4
"He knows how to spin, and how to play hardball. He proved it this week when he issued an astonishingly disingenuous and meanspirited statement after settling a Title IX lawsuit brought by a student who accused Jameis Winston, the former star quarterback of the Seminoles who won the Heisman Trophy in 2013, of raping her in 2012."
Yup because when your innocent you settle for almost a million dollars.
Yup because when your innocent you settle for almost a million dollars.
4
Thanks for taking the time to comment, Jameis.
9
A total disgrace. Ye Gods doesn't anyone in Florida have a sense of decency? I know it is about football. This is just disgusting. That the university has not cleaned up the disgrace says volumes.
21
Sadly replace Florida State with the name of many big athletic programs and you have a similar story.
13
A story where anyone can claim to be the victim of a crime and despite actual, physical evidence to the contrary- everyone will still believe them without ever actually viewing any of that publicly available evidence for themselves? That IS a sad story.
1
A politician running a state university? I wonder how the first rate professors feel about that? I don't care whether the person is Democrat or Republican, how does a former pol qualify?
14
I think they chose a politician because they are funded by politicians.
1
Janet Napolitano?
1
Donna Shalala, University of Miami?
It's all about protecting the brand, man. This whole episode was a total disgrace on the part of FSU. I used to be a FSU fan, but no more after this.
14
From someone who has no connection to FSU whatsoever, I am shocked that FSU fans would not look at the evidence before convicting their own.
1
I really don't care much about football, so I have to ask if this kid got drafted into the NFL? If so, then women have economic recourse, against the team that took him and the television sponsors who enable him.
5
Guess if he had been in Cleveland brandishing the gun the police would have shot and killed him in under 5 seconds.
12
After being raped, allegedly, her first thought is to go on Twitter?
8
The majority of men and women who are raped do NOT go to authorities. That is a symptom of sexual assault. How are you that unaware of that? They victims know that the likelihood of being victimized again, by the authorities, is too great to gamble on. Most victims confide in their friends, siblings or counselors. She posted a plea for help on Twitter. It makes perfect sense for a kid.
12
Stella, and I guess people that are raped routinely change their account of what occurred 3 or 4 times?
2
Actually, her first thought upon returning to her dorm was to violate the student honor code by asking for answers for a quiz she was to take the next day from a friend in another section of the class.
Then she went on Twitter...
Then she went on Twitter...
2
A few months ago I decided to apply to FSU for an online master's program. But after a little research, I read about this. No way they're getting my money. I wouldn't want a diploma with "Florida State" on my wall. If this is how they promote their school, why would any sane person go there?
5
You need to do more research and better vet your sources...
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/270/files/2014/12/Newlins-I...
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/270/files/2014/12/Newlins-I...
2
Yes, emphasis on 'little research'. Perhaps you should have done more. As an alum I don't want a diploma with Florida State University on your wall either.
Read the State's Attorney's report. It's clear you haven't. She said she was hit in the head. Zero physical evidence. She said she was drugged. Toxicology came back clean other than a .10 BAC. Her aunt her served as her first lawyer tried to convince her friends to lie to investigators on her behalf.
Read the State's Attorney's report. It's clear you haven't. She said she was hit in the head. Zero physical evidence. She said she was drugged. Toxicology came back clean other than a .10 BAC. Her aunt her served as her first lawyer tried to convince her friends to lie to investigators on her behalf.
2
Title IX doesn't require universities to investigate sexual assault cases or conduct tribunals to determine guilt or innocence. It makes no mention of sexual assault. A "Dear Colleague Letter" that the assistant director of the Equal Opportunity Office mailed to college presidents placed that burden on our universities. Schools should not be held accountable for crimes students commit of campus unless the crimes occur at school-sponsored events. The Justice Department should be investigating the Tallahassee ice department. It's not to late to file charges.
5
Ah, Tallahassee! Where athlete-rapists form an entire subculture and are celebrated, their victims exiled. Where Dan Markel's killer still roams free thanks to a brilliant PD.
Someday something good is going to come out of Tallahasee....
nah, probably not.
Someday something good is going to come out of Tallahasee....
nah, probably not.
14
Where they caught Ted Bundy. Hello.
2
No. Bundy was arrested by "Pensacola police officer David Lee near the Alabama state line." (Wikipedia)
2
Actually, Ted Bundy was caught in Pensacola, FL, after a routine traffic stop. He had hung out in Tallahassee for weeks after the Chi Omega murders without being caught by TPD.
Wondering how the players, who don't get a salary for playing as we have often heard, paid the $4200 worth of damage they caused. More booster money?
5
Wasn't this the guy who shoplifted all that seafood (crab legs, wasn't it?), or was that another FSU football player?
Not that shoplifting is on the same plain as rape, of course.
Not that shoplifting is on the same plain as rape, of course.
11
Dear Sarasotaliz,
Yes, it was the same guy that stole, of all things, crab legs.
Yes, it was the same guy that stole, of all things, crab legs.
4
Who does that? The NFL has very low standards.
Students? Education?
Just a front for a football program
Just a front for a football program
29
The atmosphere of anything goes for the FSU Criminoles began under the reign of the hypocritical Bobby Bowden, who would have probably played a child molester if he thought he would help win a game.
20
The NYT reports that sports donors are covering the legal fees of FSU in this case. Who is covering the amount of the settlement? As a Florida resident I would like to know if all sports programs in the state have "slush" funds available to pay off accusers.
Many cutbacks to education at all levels have occurred under Gov. Scott. It is time for a Republican-controlled state government to investigate the funding used in settlements of rape accusations. Or perhaps they have worked out some repayment "donation" to FSU from the Buccaneers player Winston or his team.
Many cutbacks to education at all levels have occurred under Gov. Scott. It is time for a Republican-controlled state government to investigate the funding used in settlements of rape accusations. Or perhaps they have worked out some repayment "donation" to FSU from the Buccaneers player Winston or his team.
16
Read the article and you will know who pays what!! You should know that the federal government Title IX is the result of the lawsuit. No crime was committed on state property. Read Washington Post article about the Title IX policies.
I despise college football, have a low view of prima donna athletes, who no doubt do sometimes rape, and I have no doubt football is a cynical business at many colleges. But something is wrong here, and not necessarily what Nocera thinks. Given colleges' deep pockets, valid rape accusations get settled for much more than $1 million. This may seem strange given that murder hardly goes for more, but murder doesn't get a college's funding shut down for Title IX reasons. This settlement is probably less than the ongoing public relations and regulatory dangers of the case, even if the plaintiff had no chance of prevailing. It doesn't mean a valid complaint was hushed up.
If a rape really happens, the perpetrator should be put behind bars for a long time. If it didn't really happen, the complainant should get absolutely nothing. Something is wrong with settlements arising out of the civil justice system for many hundreds of thousands of dollars. It won't stop the real crimes, and it may stimulate false accusations.
If a rape really happens, the perpetrator should be put behind bars for a long time. If it didn't really happen, the complainant should get absolutely nothing. Something is wrong with settlements arising out of the civil justice system for many hundreds of thousands of dollars. It won't stop the real crimes, and it may stimulate false accusations.
11
Brian Banks case. Makes my heart break again every time I read it.
Dear College-bound Women,
The message here is, if you don't want to get raped, or at minimum if you'd rather have the rapist prosecuted, then don't attend Florida State or any other college which values football highly. In fact, if you want a decent education, don't go to a football college either.
The message here is, if you don't want to get raped, or at minimum if you'd rather have the rapist prosecuted, then don't attend Florida State or any other college which values football highly. In fact, if you want a decent education, don't go to a football college either.
13
The NYT, and a good part of the Democratic party, needs to get real. What Florida State did is exactly what Hillary Clinton did to protect her political power, which "feminists", and the NYT, are giving her a pass on. It's not credible to talk out of both sides of one's mouth. If it's unacceptable for Florida State (as I believe it is) it was unacceptable for Hillary. Some minimum level of intellectual integrity is required, not this blatant hypocrisy
5
How does an article about campus rape warrant an ad hominem attack on Hillary?
55
I'm completely baffled as to when Hillary Clinton ever prevented a rapist from getting prosecuted, or how she has anything at all in common with this story.
On the other hand, Jameis Winston does sound like he has the exact same ethical standard as Trump.
On the other hand, Jameis Winston does sound like he has the exact same ethical standard as Trump.
27
What the sam hill is wrong with you, Pa?
19
And, ironically, each year Florida State University hosts a national conference for higher education professionals, The Dalton Institute on College Student Values, in which senior administrators of the university play a prominent role. I chose to stop attending the conference two years ago and will never participate again. Draw your own conclusions.
14
Please, no football as a "State" religion comments. I am from Miami.
We tried(only partly in political jest) three decades ago to have all collegiate sports at UF and FSU moved to Tallahassee (for legislators' conveniences) and all academic programs of those respective universities moved to Gainesville. Connect them with a high speed rail link.
Then my university started its own football program and had players arrested on drug dealing charges and attempted murder...before they played their inaugural game. And, across the nation, the military-industrial complex now evidences itself publicly at all televised games.
It's the new America folks.
America. Love it, leave it, .......or change it.
We tried(only partly in political jest) three decades ago to have all collegiate sports at UF and FSU moved to Tallahassee (for legislators' conveniences) and all academic programs of those respective universities moved to Gainesville. Connect them with a high speed rail link.
Then my university started its own football program and had players arrested on drug dealing charges and attempted murder...before they played their inaugural game. And, across the nation, the military-industrial complex now evidences itself publicly at all televised games.
It's the new America folks.
America. Love it, leave it, .......or change it.
7
Thrasher (aptly named) is the perfect leader for this dystopian joke posing as higher education. From the photo he looks like a guy with a something to hide. Pray some good investigative journalist digs it up.
14
And this article is published under 'Sports Business'. Not sports. Not crime. Not even law. Hmmmm. Me thinks me sees what the problem is.
2
What does football have to do with the educational mission of this school, or any school for that matter?
22
Produces money. That's really all there is to it, and in this country, money is everything.
5
It may produce money, but almost never for the actual university (you know, the part that educates students). The money is either plowed back into goodies to help recruit athletes, or blown on shamefully high salaries for the coaches and staff... (who of course 'need to be' paid so much to bring in the money that pays their salaries.)
Only a small number of Division I athletic programs are even remotely close to breakeven, financially.
Only a small number of Division I athletic programs are even remotely close to breakeven, financially.
4
in the words of writer-philosopher Elbert Hubbard: "Football is a sport that bears the same relation to education that bullfighting does to agriculture."
"The Hunting Ground" should be required watching for all college freshmen - and parents.
We often enjoy the entertainment value in watching colleges pretend their athletes are getting an education. After all its just a worthless degree and many of us obviously enjoy sports. Who really cares that they rarely attend class or that they get fake grades. Its part of the game.
But to see how colleges have turned their heads on sexual assault, time and again, and made our daughters and sisters feel like the one in the wrong - all for the sake of sports, alum support, and greed...
It makes one embarrassed to support these programs.
We often enjoy the entertainment value in watching colleges pretend their athletes are getting an education. After all its just a worthless degree and many of us obviously enjoy sports. Who really cares that they rarely attend class or that they get fake grades. Its part of the game.
But to see how colleges have turned their heads on sexual assault, time and again, and made our daughters and sisters feel like the one in the wrong - all for the sake of sports, alum support, and greed...
It makes one embarrassed to support these programs.
22
The hunting ground is a widely criticized pile of rubbish.
1
This isn't reporting. Did Nocera edit the plaintiff's talking points or just print them verbatim?
6
Is this a news article, or an editorial? Does The New York Times know or care about the difference?
8
Joe Nocera is a collumnist,this is not a news article, it is an opinion piece and clearly is one...that is opposed to Fox News, that claims to be news, when it is nothing more than right wing propoganda. At least, unlike Fox News, the NY Post, and the Republican party, he isn't gving the old Nod Nod Wink Wink at the antics of 'those boys', it is funny how those who paint the NY Times as this liberal, biased media, are also the same people who think sexual assault by football players is no big deal.
4
The solution is easy, ban all intercollegiate sports. The small group of people involved can do other things to make their post college careers more productive.
4
It is clear John Thrasher has no moral compass. Remember that when he moves on to his next "leadership" position, especially if he has any influence on your daughter's life or health. His true color is the color of money.
12
Football and players like Winston should be banned from colleges. These players have been accused of many rapes, and I am convinced they are guilty.
2
Were you also convinced the Duke Lacrosse players and the UVA fraternity members were guilty?
6
Were you convinced Brian Banks was guilty? Joshua Strange?
At factories such as Florida State, the first three priorities are football, football, football, as in money, money, money. No surprise there.
And if the well-being of individual students and the integrity of the academic institution as a whole turn into roadkill, that's just the price of doing business. What a sad excuse for an educator Mr. Thrasher is.
This university's motto happens to be "Vires, artes, mores." Which translates into "Strength, skill, (and -- ready for this?) character." OK, you can start laughing now.
And if the well-being of individual students and the integrity of the academic institution as a whole turn into roadkill, that's just the price of doing business. What a sad excuse for an educator Mr. Thrasher is.
This university's motto happens to be "Vires, artes, mores." Which translates into "Strength, skill, (and -- ready for this?) character." OK, you can start laughing now.
43
The suggestion that the atrocious reporting by the Times last year somehow led to FSU's settlement is risible. There is no evidence that the university did anything illegal (as is maliciously and inaccurately reported in this story—big surprise!). There is no evidence to suggest that Thrasher's decision was motivated by anything more than finances. The paltry settlement Kinsman accepted suggests that her legal team had little hope for winning in court: she had lost each of the four previous hearings and in each one both she and Winston had either given depositions or taken the stand under oath. Why on earth would the university be daunted by the prospect of yet another opportunity for her to fail to convince a judge or jury? Finally, had this reporter bothered to read her depositions he would see that Kinsman's account of the incident changed repeatedly (one would assume that this inconsistency contributed substantially to the court rulings against her)!
It is high time the Times accepted what every court has determined about this case to date: Namely, from the start Kinsman's case has been plagued by her failure to put together a persuasive narrative or to provide evidence to support her claims.
It is high time the Times accepted what every court has determined about this case to date: Namely, from the start Kinsman's case has been plagued by her failure to put together a persuasive narrative or to provide evidence to support her claims.
12
Adam there are none so blind as those who will not see. If there had been a timely legitimate investigaton you might have a point. But there wasn't and you don't.
23
Many years ago, Florida State athletes were "investigated" -- attention got at least that far -- for stealing various items from Tallahassee's biggest mall. Nothing new about the "athlete privilege" here.
7
Rather hard to present evidence when the police and everyone else don't do their jobs and gather the evidence as required.
7
Nocera, along with David Zirin, has become our most perceptive lens to see the reality of big time college sports. Bravo, Joe.
11
Maybe the Buccanneers are somehow paying some or all of it to protect their brand.
There is a moral hazard problem when making a rape accusations can be profitable to the tune of almost seven figures. I know that's increasingly how our society works, and no doubt she was treated horribly by the system here, but can we also ask the question of whether every injustice deserves a life-changing amount of cash? If people are guilty then put them in jail. But the system we have now, where the accusations are swept under the rug and the accuser is paid off, may serve those immediately involved but it certainly doesn't serve society at large.
11
Part of this settlement includes the university continuing steps to prevent sexual abuse on campus. I think that serves "society at large", if FSU actually follows through.
5
Wait, you're saying that she conspired to sweep her accusations under the rug so that she could be paid off in a civil suit? The criminal justice system failed her. Explain to me how that serves society at large.
4
"life-changing amouint of cash"?
What happened to the woman was a life-changing event.
What happened to the woman was a life-changing event.
Also, Ms. Kinsman's story of being impaired does not stand with testimony from her friends that night (Monique Kessler and Marcus Jordan) who both saw her before she left on her own volition and said they felt she was fine. Monique went as far as saying that she would not have let her leave if she didn't feel she was ok. The responding officer who met her in the hospital also did not feel she was impaired. And as for taking too long to investigate, Detective Angulo stated that Ms. Kinsman's lawyer Patricia Carroll was the one who said they needed to think over whether or not they wanted to press charges, leading the police to leave the case as "open/inactive". If Ms. Carroll was so upset that the Police were not doing anything, then why didn't she send them anything in writing other than her initial letter of representation? Why didn't she contact the State attorney to see if charges were being filed instead of saying "I assumed they had the file". Doesn't add up. Sounds like they reported a crime and then decided not to press charges. While I agree that the initial police work left a lot to be desired, I don't think that it was intentional and a cover up. Remember that because of this case, Detective Angulo (a man who awarded as officer of the year) had to leave his job in the SVU. Not saying it is unfair for you to have your opinion, just present all facts when writing. Thanks
8
"Angulo acknowledged not trying to get surveillance video from Potbelly's, the bar where Kinsman met Winston, saying that it "absolutely" should have been done. Angulo did not interview eyewitnesses who could potentially identify who Kinsman left the bar with, going to Winston's apartment. That included FSU player Chris Casher, Winston's roommate. Kinsman had told Angulo she had spoken with a freshman football player named Chris that night. Angulo was asked how difficult it would have been to identify a freshman football player named Chris and interview him. Angulo replied, "It wouldn't have been hard at all."
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/tallahassee-police-officer-cites-missteps....
The apologists for FSU are out in force, peddling their discredited disinformation.
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/tallahassee-police-officer-cites-missteps....
The apologists for FSU are out in force, peddling their discredited disinformation.
Please point out where I said any "discredited" information. As I said in an earlier post, the police work left a lot to be desired. I just don't think it was a "cover up". Officer Angulo said he relied on bad information with regards to Potbelly's. He did not think they recorded on their cameras (which is more common than one might think). As for Chris, he did not pursue Chris because Ms. Kinsman said she didn't believe that Chris left the bar with them that night. But even if he had the video or figured out it was Chris Casher, all that would have led them to was Jameis Winston. A man she identified 4 weeks later. So it wasn't as if this failure on Angulo's part prevented them from finding something out. They found out it was Jameis Winston. Also, do me a favor and read the entire SA report and Angulo deposition before you comment. Attaching a 2 paragraph article is the not the entire case.
The uncontroverted facts in the case are that Erica Kinsman, a small woman, had 5-6 vodka drinks at Potbelly's that night. When she initially arrived at the police station to report the rape, she was still so inebriated that the police officer on duty told her to go home and sleep it off and come back later (which she did). When her blood alcohol level was tested several hours after the rape, it was still .48. If she was too inebriated to give a statement to the police hours after the incident, how is it that she was sober enough to give her consent to have sex with Winston earlier that evening when she would have been even more inebriated? Notwithstanding that the police botched the rest of the investigation, what more did the prosecutor need to bring charges against Winston? Nothing.
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" CS Maine 26 minutes ago "
And Florida fans comment again the NY Times evidences its bias against talented young athetes "just playing around and bein' boys. Hey, let nature run its course!"
Comments from elsewhere show less bias.
And Florida fans comment again the NY Times evidences its bias against talented young athetes "just playing around and bein' boys. Hey, let nature run its course!"
Comments from elsewhere show less bias.
1
Geez.....too many lies to start with. First, she would be dead if she was at a .48, she was at a .048, which means if she was 21 she would be allowed to operate a vehicle. She was likely at a .08 during the encounter. She wasn't too inebriated to give a statement to the police. The police noted that she wasn't impaired when they met her at the hospital, But since it was 4 in the morning, she had been up all night and they felt she was distracted. The officer told her to get some sleep and call the next day. Also, her friend Monique Kessler said she was fine when she left the bar with Jameis, she even went so far as to say that she wouldn't have let her leave if she didn't feel she was ok. She was tested for over 171 different drugs, all came back negative. Physical evidence and testimony contradict your statement.
14
And what was Winston's BAL? If it was over .08% (maybe a couple of drinks), I guess he could not consent either. So maybe she should be charged with rape, too. So let's give them both police records and perhaps criminal records as sex offenders.
The concept of a high BAL or inebriation to deny effectiveness of consent is wrong. It deserves the same treatment as inebriation as a defense to the commission of a crime - it is not. It is a ridiculous politically correct trendy bit of foolishness without foundation in law or reality.
The concept of a high BAL or inebriation to deny effectiveness of consent is wrong. It deserves the same treatment as inebriation as a defense to the commission of a crime - it is not. It is a ridiculous politically correct trendy bit of foolishness without foundation in law or reality.
4
I'm not sure why I continue to read these kinds of stories. The college football star is accused of a variety of actions that would get the non-student expelled. Nothing happens - half-baked investigations, pay-offs from booster clubs, self-serving "brand protection" by administrators. I assume the "State" in Florida State means the school is a State of Florida agency. Shouldn't the state attorney general be looking at the behavior of the school in matters like this? Or is he an FSU grad too?
77
Nice article, however when covering a topic this important please remember to include all the facts, not just what supports your argument. Now before I get started, let me say that I don't know what happened that night and I don't claim to know, I just find it funny when people only acknowledge one side of the story. You don't buy Thrasher's statement that FSU settled to save litigation costs. Well, if the title IX suit were to succeed, Ms. Kinsman would recover MILLIONS of Dollars. Her Lawyers recovered almost 3 million from Colorado. And Fresno State has had multiple Title IX cases (gender discrimination) resulting in damages of 6 million and 19 million (though both later reduced to 4.52 and 6.62 million dollars). So why did Ms. Kinsman and her Title IX expert lawyers settle for 950K? As for your statement about WIllie Meggs reasons for declining charges. You said it had nothing to do with the accuser's story. Well Meggs was quoted as saying he couldn't "count on her to prove the elements of a crime" and "Her recall of the events of that night have been moving around a big". And while on her story, remember that a major point in her story was that she was impaired and/or drugged. Yet she was tested for over 171 different drugs and the test came back negative. Her alcohol level was at .048...meaning she was likely at a .08 during the encounter, not impaired to the level she claims. I'll continue on another post
8
I was wondering whether anyone was going to comment on the university's outrageous statement in regard to this lawsuit. It's truly disgusting. Thank you for writing this.
105
When will the same standards apply to the Federal government? Why no boards to determine the actions of employees? Why the different standards? Oh, my bad, it would then put the Clinton's in a bad light. Better that football lead the nation in the fight against rape. Apparently there is no need for the federal government to hold itself to the same standards as it demands of state universities.
Shamrock, congratulations on insinuating your hatred of the Clintons into an article about how FSU, even as it has been forced to pay a $950,000 settlement to avoid further embarassment for its corrupt attempt to hide its star football player's actions. Reading Thrasher's statement, were I a student at FSU, or a faculty member, I would give serious thought to finding some place else to be educated or educate. But with Thrasher, what can you expect from a political hack?
30
Absolutely, at least trying to protect the brand, but in fact just emphasizing that young women and decent men should stay away from the place (and perhaps how alumni should take action). Nipping further disclosures in the bud surely also played a role in deciding to pay nearly $1 million to quash this. Now it is possible that the young man is innocent, but the other facts around this behavior show that at least a predatory atmosphere is in place, and the President's mean-spirited attack on the woman shows that the atmosphere is probably still in place, notwithstanding actions the school has taken. More evidence that there is too much money sloshing around football, a distraction from the mission of the school.
31
Once again the NY Times comes to the rescue to tell us what this all means! The NY Times has a vendetta, not necessarily against the Florida State University, but certainly against the college game. Big Collegiate Football is the nasty protagonist in this series of one-sided stories filed by their reporters. Because of your reporting, we all now know that school administrators of Big Collegiate Football programs are corrupt. Thank you for your "diligence."
5
Because it's much more important to preserve football than to ensure the safety of female college students.
39
Sounds like watching college football is a really big part of your life.
25
William Mulligan, if you have a problem with the content of this article and the ones it is built on, please offer something more than attacking the NYT for highlighting what seems to show that FSU and its supporters in the Tallahassee Police Department attempted to bury an investigation into a student's claim she was raped. As long as the NCAA and its powerhouse athletic members can ignore what happens on their campuses, stories like these will increase in the media. Would you prefer that the NYT look the other way, so you can sit back on your couch and idolize athletes who were they regular students at their universities would be defending not against the run but against the law?
40
The amount of money involved is chump change in the world of booster fueled college football. The reasoning sounded phony when I first read it and it has not become more credible since then.
The NFL farm team system. AKA college football, has morphed into a mission distorting force that corrupts most universities at every turn. Academics? "We don't need no steenking academics!" For most of these semi pro players, their job is to play football and collect a weak education. The main goal for most is to make it to the Big Time.
Who is the highest paid person on the campus? Rarely the university president. Can players do wrong? Apparently only when it shows up on You Tube. Otherwise, no video=no problem. In this particular case, the original "investigation" was just part of the hero worship and team partisanship that has followed these athletes from high school on.
What is the State Religion in this nation? Football. The line from the movie "Concussion" is true - the NFL owns a day of the week. Colleges are just the farm teams for this same megalithic enterprise.
The NFL farm team system. AKA college football, has morphed into a mission distorting force that corrupts most universities at every turn. Academics? "We don't need no steenking academics!" For most of these semi pro players, their job is to play football and collect a weak education. The main goal for most is to make it to the Big Time.
Who is the highest paid person on the campus? Rarely the university president. Can players do wrong? Apparently only when it shows up on You Tube. Otherwise, no video=no problem. In this particular case, the original "investigation" was just part of the hero worship and team partisanship that has followed these athletes from high school on.
What is the State Religion in this nation? Football. The line from the movie "Concussion" is true - the NFL owns a day of the week. Colleges are just the farm teams for this same megalithic enterprise.
48
Not just on campus. In a lot of states, the head football coach is the highest paid state employee.
28
I visualize a chainsaw running from Jacksonville to Pensacola, and then watching what it has severed, floating out to sea.
7
Tallahassee isn't in the peninsula. I imagine the Chesapeake Bay being filled with Old Bay.
2
Thanks for contributing to the civil discourse, george eliot, and a special thanks to the editors at the Times for turning a blind eye to such comments.
Good grief.
Good grief.
3
Bugs Bunny beat you to it.
1
Florida State is a football factory pure and simple. Nobody who can get into University of Florida or Miami (and can afford it) goes to FSU for anything but the parties and the thrill of being a part of the football pageantry. Thrasher is just the man to continue the tradition.
75
Gosh darn, you're so right! FSU doesn't have a single school or college of note. Not its highly ranked College of Music nor its Broadway-studded School of Theatre nor its nationally-ranked College of Human Sciences. If I met a musician from UF, I'd run. LOL
2
And thank you New York Times for all that you do! Why don't you stick to what you do well?
...Write another story on the Donald.
...Write another story on the Donald.
2
Dan, That is silly talk.
If you think FSU is bad, well, then you have to say the exact same thing about UF and Miami. All have athletes who can barely read or speak, and many of them end up in the NFL and many of them end up in jail--sometimes both. Same, though you probably don't know any schools outside your little Florida rivalries, would hold for UT, TAMU, Bama, LSU, etc.
On the other hand, the other reason you are so wrong is each of those teams have some good, hard working kids, academically capable and honest. But I promise no team in the top 25 of the country can be entirely academically qualified.
If you think FSU is bad, well, then you have to say the exact same thing about UF and Miami. All have athletes who can barely read or speak, and many of them end up in the NFL and many of them end up in jail--sometimes both. Same, though you probably don't know any schools outside your little Florida rivalries, would hold for UT, TAMU, Bama, LSU, etc.
On the other hand, the other reason you are so wrong is each of those teams have some good, hard working kids, academically capable and honest. But I promise no team in the top 25 of the country can be entirely academically qualified.
1
Probably the sex was consensual -- or as consensual as it ever gets for Jameis!
3
All "sex" is consensual. We have a word for "nonconsensual" sex: It's rape.
51
yes, considering they were drinking all night at a bar; after the third drink anything is consensual!!!
Patty ... no it's not. I sure hope you are being sarcastic here.
8