Having recently traveled to Warsaw and other parts of Poland, I can tell you that the economy has made substantial progress as it embraced capitalism and democracy. However there are many older people who do not embrace the changes and there are young people who do not understand the responsibility of freedom. The people used to view the US as their model. However, they read about the racial discord and the lack of opportunity for the middle class and the tens of millions on food subsidies and recognize how the Obama administration wreaked havoc on the values of the nation causing a decent into a failed nation. They see who the Iranians have put American soldiers on their knees, how Putin has pushed Obama out of a leadership role in the Middle East and how China and India have spread their influence by strategically planning for world economic expansion while the US focused on diminishing their economic dominance. The Polish people are reacting to what they see is a bad trajectory. What they do not realize is that the recent decline of the US is not due to the following of the principles that made America great, but the failures are the result of the rejection of these principles. Obama, whom 60 percent of Americans recognize as a failed president, chose to pit American against American. He chose to let radical Islam threaten the world. He chose to focus on economic redistribution versus economic expansion. The Polish peopele need to know that America will survive Obama.
1
"More than 1,000 readers responded" - and this is what the NYTimes has decided was a good representative sample of those responses? This does not strike me as an objective compilation. Of the mere 16 respondents that you chose to quote, 14 are young people, and only 2 are older than 40 - and the majority express opinions that are critical of the current government.
Considering the fact that PiS won the last election overwhelmingly -- and it happened less than two months ago -- your choice of responses does not reflect the prevailing public opinion in Poland. Given the way the NYTimes has been reporting on the migrant crisis, something tells me this piece is also an example of activist journalism. How come you didn't print a single opinion reflecting the concern that most Poles have about muslim migrants forcing their way to Europe (which is a key reason why PiS won the election).
Considering the fact that PiS won the last election overwhelmingly -- and it happened less than two months ago -- your choice of responses does not reflect the prevailing public opinion in Poland. Given the way the NYTimes has been reporting on the migrant crisis, something tells me this piece is also an example of activist journalism. How come you didn't print a single opinion reflecting the concern that most Poles have about muslim migrants forcing their way to Europe (which is a key reason why PiS won the election).
3
Yes, the Poles would be smart to abandon this right wing government and turn to the EU, which has had such amazing accomplishments as the abrogation of the democratic votes of Ireland and France against further European integration, the incredible foresight to let in hundreds of thousands of military age Muslim male refugees from the Middle East, and the "liberal" spirit to dismiss the sexual assault on hundreds of European women and hide the evidence in order to maintain political correctness. Yes, it's the Polish government that's "stupid".
2
Poland problem is that in 1989 after communist "claps "nobody shut them and now their kids more corrupted then fathers sold polish national treasure (factories ,shipyards .etc )so no place to work for polish people just to go outside country for money Germany own polish media news papers and foreign supermarkets banks NOTHING owned by polish NOTHING so what EU want ? democracy ?
1
Polish democracy is in very good condition. Law & Justice won the democratic elections. Civil rights, freedom of speech and media are not in danger. Those who speak of "endangered democracy" in Poland are politicians of Civic Platform who lost the free democratic elections. It is easy to understand if you take into account that Civic Platform ruled for 8 years. It's not easy to give power back. Especially for politicians and their families who profited on long Civic Platform rules. In fact it is now that turns out that Civic Platform through their 8-year rules has infringed civil rights many times (surveillance), dominated public media and even the constitutional court. That's why they are trying to spread lies about current polish government and use their power to push western politicians to criticize Law & Justice.
Come to Poland and you'll see that nothing happens here. You can freely speak, demonstrate and give your opinions on everything.
Come to Poland and you'll see that nothing happens here. You can freely speak, demonstrate and give your opinions on everything.
9
What, then are the massive protests all about? Recently tens of thousands have taken to the streets across Poland- holding signs that read "Jaroslaw Polskę Zostaw!" - which translates to "Jaroslaw (Kaczynski) leave Poland" and "Duda must go!." rejecting the government's right wing policies and nationalist movement and demanding the government respect the rule of law. Poland is in a crisis and it is simply disingenuous to claim otherwise.
3
The policies of the government led by the Law and Justice party is causing a great deal of grief, fear, and widespread anxiety about Poland's future among all the Poles I know, in Poland and here. They also judge very harshly the Catholic Church for its complicity with a regime which stands to threaten their civil liberties and hard earned democracy. A large dark and stormy cloud looms over Polish society at this moment. The discontent is very palpable.
2
Why are we Americans are so eager to lecture others about how to live? It is clear that the "American" way is not for every country out there. Let people of other countries be free to decide on their own how to live.
6
You know these people have been through a lot. The photo of the "Old Town" illustrating this article speaks volumes if you know a little history. "Old Town" ain't so old. The Nazis absolutely flattened Warsaw in the waning months of the war -- block by block demolition -- strictly out of of vengeance and racial hatred of Slavs. Look closely and you'll see that the buildings are reconstructions. This expression of sympathy said, it's difficult not to get the willys from what is now going on in Poland. As a Jew, I cannot forget the pogroms that occurred AFTER WW II when displaced, surviving Jews staggered back looking for relatives only to be killed by Poles afraid that the survivors would claim looted property. Or the time Lech Welesa lectured at my university and, as an undergraduate in the audience, I heard him refer to Polish Jews, a thousand-year old community, as "outlanders." Or the twenty minutes I spent in Poland not long ago during a layover, idly thumbing through a local newspaper and coming across no less than three anti-semitic articles. Or ... The more things change ... .
3
Funny that we never see such comments from American Jews about Germans. For some reason, Germans who killed 3 millions of Jews (and even more Slavs) seem to have been forgiven, and no one is beating up on them as relentlessly as the Poles are getting beat up by NYT Jewish readers. Whenever an article about Poland appears, you can always count on anti-Polish comments.
The bottom line is that the Poles and the Jews have a very complicated history, good and bad times alike, and BOTH sides have contributed to it. Comments that keep opening old wounds serve no good purpose. Just as in personal relationships it makes no sense to constantly drag things out and keep playing the blame game, comments such as yours are not at all helpful.
The bottom line is that the Poles and the Jews have a very complicated history, good and bad times alike, and BOTH sides have contributed to it. Comments that keep opening old wounds serve no good purpose. Just as in personal relationships it makes no sense to constantly drag things out and keep playing the blame game, comments such as yours are not at all helpful.
7
Fairly said. But it is not "...stay the same". Things do change, for the better, just not fast enough, but this is for another post.
In some sense what is going on right now in Poland (insane government, supported by about 30% of people) is partly a result of the fact that we did not go after antisemitism sternly enough here. Well over half of the Polish population is finding itself right now on the receiving end of the same insanity. Facing internally contradictory and baseless accusations of conspiracy, accusations of having penetrated all ruling bodies of the society, getting rich by fraud and deception, "having traitor genes" (exact quote) - you name it, the standard catalog of antisemitic bile. Just that this is now directed against a majority of population.
We have much work here. Stay tuned.
In some sense what is going on right now in Poland (insane government, supported by about 30% of people) is partly a result of the fact that we did not go after antisemitism sternly enough here. Well over half of the Polish population is finding itself right now on the receiving end of the same insanity. Facing internally contradictory and baseless accusations of conspiracy, accusations of having penetrated all ruling bodies of the society, getting rich by fraud and deception, "having traitor genes" (exact quote) - you name it, the standard catalog of antisemitic bile. Just that this is now directed against a majority of population.
We have much work here. Stay tuned.
3
Give the heroic Polish people a break. The U.S. became an independent nation after sharing two centuries of the gradual development democracy as a British colony. Even then it took us roughly 40 years to move most of the place into a proto-democratic system and a terrible civil war to advance it nationwide. Our neighbors were Canadian and Mexican. Poland's was Hitler and Stalin.
5
It's funny how "democracy" used to mean "majority rule," but now it has come to mean "permanent rule by the upper middle class, no matter what happens in those vulgar elections."
6
POLAND SUFFERED As did other middle European countries, during the two World Wars and having a communist dictatorship imposed for many years. The Poles were caught between the Nazis and Soviets, suffering greatly at the hands of both. It must also be said that Poland is the country where the highest proportion of Jews were exterminated during the Holocaust. Before WW II, there were over 3 million Jewish Poles; only in New York City could a larger group of Jews be found. After the war, there were some 3,000 left. Now the small Jewish community is growing. Poles choose to send their children to the Jewish day care programs because of the high educational standards and quality of care. But I wonder whether the Poles must now rally and borrow the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust: Never again! Will there be new Solidarity movement in Poland. The variety and range of comments written by Poles show that there is some freedom of expression. There is also the potentially stabilizing presence of the EU regulations that could mitigate the move toward the right. Since there are no secrets anywhere because of the Internet, I think that the Poles will not suffer silently. If things go way off course, I think the Poles will have enough contact with other nations to rally international support. The last thing the country needs is a sign of weakness that would attract the attention of Putin and kindle his dangerous lust for conquest and expansion of Russia.
2
The governing party in Poland has a problem with respecting opposition's right to express thoughts. Bills are passed at night (yes - 2.am, 3 a.m), the opposition is NOT informed about Parliament sessions. What's worse - only bills that limit citizens' rights are passed at the moment. I don't like the direction in which the country is going. I event don't mind when politics is mixed with religion and extremism (which is bad in any way) - what troubles me the most are the civil rights that are being taken away, Surveillance acts etc. It's gonna be hard to live in Poland for someone who's not "in sync" with the ruling party's opinion.
3
I always wonder. How many of people do actually check what is being passed through parliament, before expressing their opinion? I can take a guess, and would say majority do not check at all, and their opinions are solely based on media coverage and information from "the experts". I suggest to form your own opinions based on facts (reading the actual bill). Draw conclusions from other countries legislations etc. E.g is USA a democratic country? Do they pass survaillance acts? What sort of acts? How they are being controlled? And if this confirms your worries, then go and express it. Otherwise it is pure lazyness and you are subject of manipulation.
3
Why not an article on how the EU is in flux? Democracy in the EU, as it would seem, is in a precarious place. The press suppress politically incorrect truths, the police are unprepared to defend their citizens when publicly molested in multiple cities across Germany and delay the reporting of the molestations, the mayor of the city that was the epicenter of the attacks does not foster confidence in a statement made when the attacks came to light too many days later and claims that she was misquoted. The EU de facto but not de jure leader, Angela Merkel, unilaterally decided on a whim, it would seem, to invite over 1 million migrants in the block without bothering to consult with her own citizens let alone other EU leaders, and then tried to aggressively strong arm countries who opposed her unilateral decision (Poland among them). When citizens vote in a democracy, they should have some idea of the positions that the candidates would most likely take if elected, based upon previous statements and positions expressed. In Merkel's case, she is a conservative, who had been on the record stating that multi-culturalism had been a failure. Also, the civil war in Syria had already been waged for years, and she gave no hint when was up for reelection in 2014 that she that would take in the masses 1 short year later. In the long run, this is more of a threat to stability and democracy than the new (free and fair) democratically elected leadership in Poland is.
9
Amen!
5
I know that it might sound silly, but when i was reading those "responds from readers" i get to the confusion: there are no word of truth (maybe a few). If you are looking for an objective opinion, then you need to go and ask the poorest people in Poland who doesnt care about the goverment. All that matters now is independency which had been taken from Poland by EU... There is literally NO polish industry, because mostly belongs to German investors... I cant understand why gay people are yelling the loudest, there is maybe 0,5% of society in Poland who are homosexual, and most of them are probably happy if they are not trying to dictate their rules to the rest of society...
9
Fascism does have a history in Poland, and a very unenviable record it is.
Yours is a heavy-hitting opinion with no supportive data. Poland has a history of great patriotism, which made it possible for the Poles to survive as a nation (despite being squeezed between the Germans and Russians, whose historically imperialistic ambitions aimed at destroying Poland). Of course patriotism and nationalism are two side of the same coin -- and you cannot have the former without some manifestations of the latter. Overall, Poland cannot afford not to be nationalistic, or it would cease to exist. The problem is that too many liberals think that nationalism is always a bad thing, and amounts to fascism - and that is not true.
11
Some of these comments would make the insurrectionists in the Western US and Tea Partiers in the south, very happy!
Very sad!
It's like watching the slow, demise of enlightenment and reason!
Very sad!
It's like watching the slow, demise of enlightenment and reason!
4
Poland's government was elected Democratically. Its what the people wanted, voted for, and now have. That is Democracy!
The rise of right wing governments has all to do with mass immigration, and people fearing for the loss of their lives, their values, and freedoms. I have always been left wing, but currently, there seems to be a huge disconnect regarding what appears to many to be forced immigration by left wing governments.
The left seems to be in complete denial about the real issues posed by the current influx into Europe. They push on, disregarding the mass objections to their agenda. Therefore, the right wing will continue to flourish.
The rise of right wing governments has all to do with mass immigration, and people fearing for the loss of their lives, their values, and freedoms. I have always been left wing, but currently, there seems to be a huge disconnect regarding what appears to many to be forced immigration by left wing governments.
The left seems to be in complete denial about the real issues posed by the current influx into Europe. They push on, disregarding the mass objections to their agenda. Therefore, the right wing will continue to flourish.
14
These developments should make people think twice about the wisdom of Nato enlargement to countries like Poland and Hungary. At a minimum, they should be put in the anti-democratic penalty box.
Sad to say, mutatis mutandis, many of the comments here apply to the politics and culture of my state: a polarized, conservative legislature and executive, ideological rigidity steeped in "Christian (read "fundamentalist") values, xenophobia, a "free" but rigidly right-wing press. Mr. Surdykowski's comments about the association of bikes and vegans with Marxism reminds me of a conversation I had with a distinguished scholar of medieval philosophy during my first (and sadly last) visit to Kraków) in 1999: she was old enough then to have been trained before the Soviet expansion, and for the next 45 years watched the decline in her field, as the Communist rulers regarded the study of Latin and the Middle Ages contrary to the arc of Marxist history. Almost snuffed out, it required great effort and determination to resurrect the discipline among a new generation of students. Poland (and who knows, maybe Oklahoma) will swing back to a reasonable democratic middle, though I suspect that it may yet take more suffering.
3
Before the American "pot" rushes to call out the Polish "kettle" for its anti-democratic back-sliding and polarization, perhaps we ought to honestly look into the mirror of our own politics. In the midst of our own gridlock and xenophobia politicans such as Trump and Cruz grow in influence, as they exploit the worse in us. One can't compare the demographic, cultural and religious diversity of the US with Poland's homogeneous population, and the lingering power of its Catholic religious institutions. This, within the context of Poland's often bloody struggle to maintain its identity as a nation and a people. As is the hope in American politics, perhaps the youth of Poland (with their wider and more open perspectives) will come to the rescue - if they don't continue to leave for greener pastures...
3
Michal Madey may be right about "Poland is still in the process of transforming from Communism." He hopes that the ruling party, PiS could "finish this process."
The 2004 EU eastward enlargement may have been a rash action right from the beginning. Brussels should have given these countries, who gained democracy only 25 years ago, more time to adapt, before they became members. No doubt many Poles and Hungarians were thrilled about the subsidies they received from Brussels at the beginning. For the first time they could get a mortgage and become home-owners, but in Swiss francs or other hard currencies. When the financial crisis set in 2008, they were badly hurt and they were the ones, who started to resent Brussels and the West.
The 2004 EU eastward enlargement may have been a rash action right from the beginning. Brussels should have given these countries, who gained democracy only 25 years ago, more time to adapt, before they became members. No doubt many Poles and Hungarians were thrilled about the subsidies they received from Brussels at the beginning. For the first time they could get a mortgage and become home-owners, but in Swiss francs or other hard currencies. When the financial crisis set in 2008, they were badly hurt and they were the ones, who started to resent Brussels and the West.
4
Any party that adopts nationalism rooted in religious fundamentalism, and then exercises that to project power is a disaster-in-waiting. It is disappointing that in spite of priding themselves as highly educated, pragmatic people, Poles managed to fall into the trap of xenophobia and dogma. Hopefully, it's a passing fad, not something that will take the shape of the path of Russia or Turkey, never mind some other semi-authoritarian regimes around the world, where suppression of individual freedoms is being justified in the name of the pursuit of nationalistic agendas.
11
You assume that citizens of all other countries in the world should aspire to replicate the American experiment in which ethnic cultures are being eradicated, and where representative democracy is corrupted by the power of money in politics, which leaves the vast majority of people unable to influence decisions that deeply affect their lives. The truth is that most other countries have no interest in replicating American multiculturalism with corrupt policies.
18
Bravo Eva, well said!
6
Nowhere in Victor's text there is a notion that, as you say, " countries in the world should aspire to replicate the American experiment."
You also state that, American multiculturalism, "with its corrupt policies", should not be replicated.
I cannot help but ask you the following, Eva: with your Boston address, aren't you part of that multiculturalism that you so heavily criticize?
You also state that, American multiculturalism, "with its corrupt policies", should not be replicated.
I cannot help but ask you the following, Eva: with your Boston address, aren't you part of that multiculturalism that you so heavily criticize?
2
The problem with democracy, is that people don't always vote the right way. Look at the United States. Why should Poland be different? Countries with a history of dictatorship tend to veer in the opposite direction when finally given a choice in government. If it was a Right wing dictatorship, they swing hard to the Left. Eastern Europe was under Left wing rule (and foreign occupation). No surprise people are dabbling with the Right and Nationalist parties. Also no surprise that many of the Polish people resent foreign advice on how to run their country. It will work itself out.
9
Part of the problem though is that the the governing party in Poland *calls* itself "right", but has an extreme leftist program: tax big business, drastically increase welfare, drastically restrict people's possibility to choose between private and state-managed medical care, drastically increase budget deficit, introduce "justice by popular vote", order banks to return money to customers who made losing currency bets etc. This is NOT "rebound to the right", this is coming back to communism in much of it's program.
3
This is a shame, and I think it endangers their connection to NATO. Putin must be rubbing his hands in glee.
10
The Poles fought for the right to live with some freedom. Now they are being given a choice to stay Polish or give up their freedom and democracy.
Why can't Poland be for Poles and democratic?
It seems like foreign powers are demanding that Poland give up their rights to control their immigration and economy in order to get support for democracy.
Why can't Poland be for Poles and democratic?
It seems like foreign powers are demanding that Poland give up their rights to control their immigration and economy in order to get support for democracy.
23
My English is poor, and I apologize for that.
I live in Poland and I am concerned that at one moment we get back under the rule of the Soviet Union. No offense, but the Polish diaspora who lives in the US should not have the right to vote in the elections because They do not know what is happening. Currently not feel directly major changes as far substrate is prepared to change the authoritarian regime. Lots of Polish companies will be in leave Pland or will cease to exist- "reform". But these overseas should I expect deliciously. The Prime Minister and the President are just figureheads in the hands Kaczynski and I'm afraid that Kaczynski is an Putin agent.
I live in Poland and I am concerned that at one moment we get back under the rule of the Soviet Union. No offense, but the Polish diaspora who lives in the US should not have the right to vote in the elections because They do not know what is happening. Currently not feel directly major changes as far substrate is prepared to change the authoritarian regime. Lots of Polish companies will be in leave Pland or will cease to exist- "reform". But these overseas should I expect deliciously. The Prime Minister and the President are just figureheads in the hands Kaczynski and I'm afraid that Kaczynski is an Putin agent.
3
You said it very well: "Why can't Poland be for Poles and democratic? It seems like foreign powers are demanding that Poland give up their rights to control their immigration and economy in order to get support for democracy."
This is the crux of the thing. The way the western media portray events in Poland suggests that Poland is losing its democracy -- when in fact Poland has just regained its ability to shape the kind of democracy and society that the Poles themselves want to have. The Poles are proud independent people who don't want to be the puppets of the West (or Russia, for that matter).
This is the crux of the thing. The way the western media portray events in Poland suggests that Poland is losing its democracy -- when in fact Poland has just regained its ability to shape the kind of democracy and society that the Poles themselves want to have. The Poles are proud independent people who don't want to be the puppets of the West (or Russia, for that matter).
1
I am somewhat puzzled by comments of the ones going along with the stale viewpoint: "communism equal right-wing dictatorship". There were different stages of how the so called "proletariat dictatorship" played out its Marxist tenets, and so many workers' rights were part of a political doctrine that supported other far more pressing exigencies like leading a good decent living and not die from hunger, for example. If it hadn't been for communism a true democratic European outlook would not have been possible at all. True, politics ebbs and flows constantly, but equating the left with the right is what a real neo-fascist regime is making disaffected people believe in order to install a genuine, scary, violent totalitarianism.
4
I'm gay too, like one of commenting here. i'm an atheist. I work in a private comapny and was not gaining any benefits from any of previous governments. I do fear what 2016 is about to bring. I fear worst. I want to stay here, change the country to be modern, open place for everybody. But if it comes to any anti-gay law being implemented, any rulings against online posts criticizing goverment or church, I may not bear it and leave, really. I'm not an enemy just because I do not act in accordance with majority. The ruling party doesn't want to make Poland unified, the want it flattened, they want al to act and think they way they do. This is not freedom, even if some call it independence from Western Europe. If I was to choose - live as foreigner with my private laws protected or as Pole according to Polish traditional values that exclude nearly everybody for some reason (be it cyclist, vegetarian, gay, atheist, ecologist or a working childless woman), the answer is easy for me.
23
What is happening in Poland is I think a part of a wider worldwide phenomenon (effort?) of building a community around the values of irrationality, fear, hate, intolerance.
Part of this is washing the meaning out of words. Current governing party in Poland is calling itself "Christian values driven", but it's program is founded on negatives. People are rallied to hate and fear homosexuals, foreigners, neighbors, immigrants, Muslim, atheists, non-whites, Jews, entrepreneurs, bankers, journalists, businessmen, judges, NGOs... The word "Christian" is being defined by what you hate and what you fear.
Current governing party calls itself "conservative" but it plans to distribute about 20% of state budget in additional welfare benefits, cut the local government budgets by half (to cover welfare payments), drastically increase budged deficit, legislate private banks to pay back money to people who made bad currency bets, tax those banks on top of it (estimated credit cost rise about 20%), tax extra (with intent of driving off) big retailers, tax extra (with intent of driving off) foreign investment in manufacturing. "Conservative" also means plans of totally subordinating the judiciary to the vote of Parliament - justice by popular vote.
Reality is however rudely uncooperative. Poland's credit ratings had been reversed yesterday. But hey, this is just a proof of the anti-Polish conspiracy of international markets, the very issue the government had been campaigning on.
Part of this is washing the meaning out of words. Current governing party in Poland is calling itself "Christian values driven", but it's program is founded on negatives. People are rallied to hate and fear homosexuals, foreigners, neighbors, immigrants, Muslim, atheists, non-whites, Jews, entrepreneurs, bankers, journalists, businessmen, judges, NGOs... The word "Christian" is being defined by what you hate and what you fear.
Current governing party calls itself "conservative" but it plans to distribute about 20% of state budget in additional welfare benefits, cut the local government budgets by half (to cover welfare payments), drastically increase budged deficit, legislate private banks to pay back money to people who made bad currency bets, tax those banks on top of it (estimated credit cost rise about 20%), tax extra (with intent of driving off) big retailers, tax extra (with intent of driving off) foreign investment in manufacturing. "Conservative" also means plans of totally subordinating the judiciary to the vote of Parliament - justice by popular vote.
Reality is however rudely uncooperative. Poland's credit ratings had been reversed yesterday. But hey, this is just a proof of the anti-Polish conspiracy of international markets, the very issue the government had been campaigning on.
8
To the good people of the West,
Contrary to the alarmist media reports we, the free citizens of Poland, want to reassure you that in Poland today there are no threats to democracy. The mainstream media in the West, taking cues from the Polish mainstream press and those connected to the last government (recently ejected from office for corruption) continue to criticise the current freshly, democratically elected government and deliver incomplete accounts of the actions on the ground. This active “spin” is meant to obfuscate the truth about the last 8 years as well as to “poison the well” for those elected with the largest democratic mandate in modern Polish history. (This is the first government elected with a unilateral mandate to govern without coalition partners.) This propagandist treatment is occurring at an unceasing and even increasing pace from those who cannot claim objectivity as they have been personally, professionally, and financially connected to those who have just been ejected from government for many years. No one in Poland denies that a free people are endowed with a right to public protest. This is self-evident in a modern democracy. But western press accounts strongly suggest that this is the case in Poland today.
Contrary to the alarmist media reports we, the free citizens of Poland, want to reassure you that in Poland today there are no threats to democracy. The mainstream media in the West, taking cues from the Polish mainstream press and those connected to the last government (recently ejected from office for corruption) continue to criticise the current freshly, democratically elected government and deliver incomplete accounts of the actions on the ground. This active “spin” is meant to obfuscate the truth about the last 8 years as well as to “poison the well” for those elected with the largest democratic mandate in modern Polish history. (This is the first government elected with a unilateral mandate to govern without coalition partners.) This propagandist treatment is occurring at an unceasing and even increasing pace from those who cannot claim objectivity as they have been personally, professionally, and financially connected to those who have just been ejected from government for many years. No one in Poland denies that a free people are endowed with a right to public protest. This is self-evident in a modern democracy. But western press accounts strongly suggest that this is the case in Poland today.
14
If returning Poland to the fascist regime of the 1930s is what Poles want, it is their right to do so. But don't ask US (troops and money) to help you when Putin puts on the squeeze. At least the Saudis provide oil as well as Sharia Law. What does Poland provide besides Canon Law and a medieval Pope who hid the pervasive sexual molestation of thousands of children by priests?
4
Good woman of Cracow,
please don't lie to good and smart people of the West.
Recent laws passed in Poland were voted in the night time. NIGHT TIME. Opinions of experts and opposition parties were simply disregarded. How is that normal?
People in Poland are scared about their freedom as Katarzyna and Adam are just for example.
In last few days most of the reporters from public TV were let go because they "didn't fit with new vision of public TV".
Our ministers our blabbing things withought wider reflections offending now pretty much everybody who didn't vote for them. Claiming that thousands of people who are protesting on the streets almost every weekend now are just sad because they have been cut from the money flow is simply naive.
please don't lie to good and smart people of the West.
Recent laws passed in Poland were voted in the night time. NIGHT TIME. Opinions of experts and opposition parties were simply disregarded. How is that normal?
People in Poland are scared about their freedom as Katarzyna and Adam are just for example.
In last few days most of the reporters from public TV were let go because they "didn't fit with new vision of public TV".
Our ministers our blabbing things withought wider reflections offending now pretty much everybody who didn't vote for them. Claiming that thousands of people who are protesting on the streets almost every weekend now are just sad because they have been cut from the money flow is simply naive.
13
Kraków trzyma się razem(jaki ten świat mały xD) .Wreszcie ktoś kto nie płacze do Amerykanów że jest im tak źle i jak są gejami to grozi im śmierć.
2
I want to congratulate NYT this great idea allowing Polish people direct expressions of their thoughts, either in Polish or English. Communism purposely and successfully froze the Polish society in its past with all its fears, stereotypes, and believes. Actually, this is not only true for Poland but for other countries of the former Eastern Block as well. There is still a large segment of Polish population which needs to thaw and we should facilitate this process.
20
It seems that right wing tactics worldwide have veered toward this premise of creating the illusion of "us vs them" and then pandering to and inflating the fears that this raises, at the expense of either truth or fact. The sad part is they have discovered that this formula works quite well for them, even as it works against society as a whole on a regional as well as national level. Sadly it seems as if personal power has become more important than overall well being and prosperity.
12
The sadder part of the story is that U.S. politicians have pioneered the use of identity politics to gain an unearned edge in the quest for voter support. At this point there is pitifully little debate here about policy. It's all about a fancied exploitation via gender, race, ethnic heritage, class, age, and so on, and on, and on.
3
O dear, it seems like a long time since the heady days of Solidarność.
So many years have passed since I visited Sopot, Gdańsk and Gdynia.
I think people feel threatened by events in the middle east & are exhibiting more xenophobia & nativism. This is occurring even in my country, the U.S.
But autocracy is not the answer, neither is abandoning politics.
As one writer mentioned, Erasmus, bike paths & travel may be the answer.
So many years have passed since I visited Sopot, Gdańsk and Gdynia.
I think people feel threatened by events in the middle east & are exhibiting more xenophobia & nativism. This is occurring even in my country, the U.S.
But autocracy is not the answer, neither is abandoning politics.
As one writer mentioned, Erasmus, bike paths & travel may be the answer.
14
It is painful to say, but if you had to chose between more democracy, as practiced by the EU with their open border policy vs less democracy with controlled borders, I think that Poland would be better with less democracy. In a generation from now, Germany may not be Germany anymore, but at least Poland still has a chance to remain Polish, democracy or not. The EU is not what it is cracked up to be, and Poland sees that.
43
Well said! But could you be more specific? Would it be more effective to return to the Poland of the Iron Curtain Era or the Poland of the Oswiecim Auschwitz era?
1
I prefer freedomm without nationality, than nationality excluding some living people on the basis of ideas. Poeple, not idelogies man.
13
allanbarnes
Clearly you do not study history. When Auschwitz - a German created camp was operating - there was no Poland. After invasion by both the Germans and the Soviets - Poland was once again partitioned.
The eastern part was incorporated either into the Ukrainian SSR, the Belarusian SSR or the Lithuanian SSR and Poles were deported from those areas.
Western and northern Poland was incorporated into the Reich and that was where Auschwitz-Birkenau was built.
Central and southern Poland was renamed the General Gouvernment and was commanded by General Hans Frank.
Please get your history correct and you may be able to better understand current attitudes in Poland.
Clearly you do not study history. When Auschwitz - a German created camp was operating - there was no Poland. After invasion by both the Germans and the Soviets - Poland was once again partitioned.
The eastern part was incorporated either into the Ukrainian SSR, the Belarusian SSR or the Lithuanian SSR and Poles were deported from those areas.
Western and northern Poland was incorporated into the Reich and that was where Auschwitz-Birkenau was built.
Central and southern Poland was renamed the General Gouvernment and was commanded by General Hans Frank.
Please get your history correct and you may be able to better understand current attitudes in Poland.
4
Democracy is a cure for social unrest and uprising, not a cure for poor governance and corruption. Too many people all over the world have bought into this US propaganda that democracy is a panacea for all problems.
The Chinese have this political cartoon: an apple vender have a pile of apples on his cart. A customer check the apples and wasn't impressed and left. The vender sort his apples into two piles. The customer come back and spent quite a while deciding which pile is better before buying some. It is still the same pile of rotten apple but the customer can only blame himself for not picking from the other "better" pile.
Some of the wealthiest countries in the world are un-democratic and some of the poorest countries are fully democratic. Lots of Poles in this interview are still stuck in a black and white world much to their politicans' delight.
The Chinese have this political cartoon: an apple vender have a pile of apples on his cart. A customer check the apples and wasn't impressed and left. The vender sort his apples into two piles. The customer come back and spent quite a while deciding which pile is better before buying some. It is still the same pile of rotten apple but the customer can only blame himself for not picking from the other "better" pile.
Some of the wealthiest countries in the world are un-democratic and some of the poorest countries are fully democratic. Lots of Poles in this interview are still stuck in a black and white world much to their politicans' delight.
22
That's an insightful observation (what democracies excel at). It's unclear if the wealth of a country has anything to do good governance and corruption also but there probably are some correlations.
Democracy has to be about representing the will of the people: A dictator or king who is responsive to his people (i.e., who thinks of themselves as being in service to the people and enacts policies accordingly to benefit them) may be more democratic than an elected government that ignores the wishes of the mob (of course this would logically include the replacement of the governance as well). I don't think the apple analogy holds for this reason, since the rottenness is a creation of buyer, not just already and preselected, in a true democracy.
Of course, mob rule isn't great either, which is why democracies are typically representative in nature.
Democracy has to be about representing the will of the people: A dictator or king who is responsive to his people (i.e., who thinks of themselves as being in service to the people and enacts policies accordingly to benefit them) may be more democratic than an elected government that ignores the wishes of the mob (of course this would logically include the replacement of the governance as well). I don't think the apple analogy holds for this reason, since the rottenness is a creation of buyer, not just already and preselected, in a true democracy.
Of course, mob rule isn't great either, which is why democracies are typically representative in nature.
4
it was offered an alliance with Russia which was favored by England and France,
but they preferred to choose Germany instead. I hope you know the results of that alliance, the invasion of Poland by Germany AND Russia in 1939 that started WWII.