".... moderating decisions are subjective. " Got it NYT... Most people commenting on this story, if you're really honest with yourself are more upset about the kitten in this story than the Afghans. If the events chronicled in this piece are accurate, than an independent, external investigation should occur. I just can't help but show contempt for all the faux outrage from the commenters... Where was your outrage when child laborers made your Iphone and Nikes ? What about the near complete annihilation of rain forests and the ice caps? if you showed half as much rage towards these atrocities as you do when the baristas get your soy macchiato wrong, well the world may indeed have a chance.
5
So we hang the SEALs out to dry but write a seemingly promotional piece on the poetry habits of ISIS jihadists? Both sides may be in the wrong, but it seems that the Times's PR dept. has shown exquisitely poor timing recently.
1
Navy SEALS represent state sanctioned terror. If ordered to do so, they will torture and kill American citizens as readily as they torment Afghan peasants.
8
The Golden Boys of the military establishment will never, I say never, be publicly humiliated or charges brought that will defame the Navy SEALs. If the public in general believes that military atrocities are not the status quo of every day battlefield conduct, they are living in a dream bubble.
3
Military commanders can not be trusted with imposing justice .
Congress must establish a specially-trained corps of military prosecutors to handle allegations of sexual assault, and other serious crimes, instead of the commanders of those accused
Congress must establish a specially-trained corps of military prosecutors to handle allegations of sexual assault, and other serious crimes, instead of the commanders of those accused
7
Thank you, Navy SEALS, for your sacrifices for our country. Most of your sacrifices are invisible. People who sit and enjoy life in the comfort of heart and home cannot comprehend the horrors of war in the field. William Tecumseh Sherman: "War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over."
5
Col Wagon: The SEALs blew it. They broke the rules, got caught, and the higher-ups said, that's ok, boys. Well, it's not ok, what they did was wrong and they need to be punished, pure and simple, can't you comprehend that? The military in this country is always touting honor, discipline, love of country, and sacrifice to all the rest of us for what they do. There is no honor in what the SEALs did. They acted no better than the people they were fighting.
17
america was started w high ideals
its painfully obvious those ideals are long forgotten
its painfully obvious those ideals are long forgotten
4
Yea, America was squeaky clean until this happened.
5
“If you knew what it was like on the ground, it would look different.”
How "different" could it look? You beat a poor, uneducated man, who you were there to "bring democracy to" to death. No one made you do it. You didn't even have to stay and watch. You should have immediately reported the militia members to you superiors.
But this is the war Trump wants, isn't it? Get the families and assume every Muslim you encounter is guilty of something, right? In fact, this is kind of judgment I'd expect Trump to make, given the opportunity.
Someone needs to intervene and try to, at least, provide a settlement to the survivors.
How "different" could it look? You beat a poor, uneducated man, who you were there to "bring democracy to" to death. No one made you do it. You didn't even have to stay and watch. You should have immediately reported the militia members to you superiors.
But this is the war Trump wants, isn't it? Get the families and assume every Muslim you encounter is guilty of something, right? In fact, this is kind of judgment I'd expect Trump to make, given the opportunity.
Someone needs to intervene and try to, at least, provide a settlement to the survivors.
6
“If you knew what it was like on the ground, it would look different.”
How "different" could it look? You beat a poor, uneducated man, whom you were there to "bring democracy to", to death. No one made you do it. You didn't even have to stay and watch. You should have immediately reported the militia members to you superiors.
But this is the war Trump wants, isn't it? Get the families and assume every Muslim you encounter is guilty of something, right? In fact, this is kind of judgment I'd expect Trump to make, given the opportunity.
Someone needs to intervene and try to, at least, provide a settlement to the survivors.
How "different" could it look? You beat a poor, uneducated man, whom you were there to "bring democracy to", to death. No one made you do it. You didn't even have to stay and watch. You should have immediately reported the militia members to you superiors.
But this is the war Trump wants, isn't it? Get the families and assume every Muslim you encounter is guilty of something, right? In fact, this is kind of judgment I'd expect Trump to make, given the opportunity.
Someone needs to intervene and try to, at least, provide a settlement to the survivors.
9
Why is it that every story that paints the U.S. as the evil agressor allows comments but any story that might elicit meaningful dissent of the current administration's multitude of failures has no comment feature? I expect this comment to never see the light of day but maybe it might tweak the NY Times sense of true journalism.
3
th usa invaded Afghanistan
they did not invade th usa
( and no, 911 doesnt count bc that was bought and paid for by saudi )
they did not invade th usa
( and no, 911 doesnt count bc that was bought and paid for by saudi )
4
Actually, this is pretty widely known--and unfortunately romanticized in the media. It is also being fed to Americans every day in prime time media, movies, and games. No wonder our police are in many ways emulating the behavior exhibited by special forces. They are being just like the heroes on TV. But when the police see average citizens as the enemy, it's a problem. If you're a hammer, all you see is nails to pound.
On the other hand, when war is terrorists who operate from sleeper cells, special forces are essential and far preferable to hundreds if not thousands of our soldiers dying.
It's about balance. Romanticization and identification with special forces is making killers of more of us than we like to admit.
On the other hand, when war is terrorists who operate from sleeper cells, special forces are essential and far preferable to hundreds if not thousands of our soldiers dying.
It's about balance. Romanticization and identification with special forces is making killers of more of us than we like to admit.
6
Thank you to our Navy SEALs for your service to our country. Like it or not somebody has to do it and these brave men have volunteered to go. War is hell and lots of bad things happen.
3
Yes, until it happens to you.
12
Here's all you need to know: they crossed the line from their humanity to the sub-human. This appears to mandate every and any action committed by these military 'heroes' as being appropriate. As a combat veteran, I am ashamed...
11
It is time we get our people out of Afghanistan. Clearly, this whole deal smells. You cannot allow this kind of abuse and murder to go unpunished. These creeps need their pictures posted to a public shaming site, with a link to the whole story by the pictures of them....................we need to leave the middle east!!!!!!!!!!!!
2
Now you know why the US is called the Great Satan.
It only takes a few bad incidents to reflect on the many good.
Just as some Muslims are bad the US via Trump looks to the many to be of the same kind.
Despite the intensive training to kill and the psychological effect with this and the environment the SEALS are in , in some way discipline must also be a part of their way of life and killing.
The thing is that in war all or many men are beasts..!!
STAN CHUN
Wellington
New Zealand
It only takes a few bad incidents to reflect on the many good.
Just as some Muslims are bad the US via Trump looks to the many to be of the same kind.
Despite the intensive training to kill and the psychological effect with this and the environment the SEALS are in , in some way discipline must also be a part of their way of life and killing.
The thing is that in war all or many men are beasts..!!
STAN CHUN
Wellington
New Zealand
2
For those readers who are big believers in virtual reality as other than an oxymoron, you might want to compare the television show, N.C.I.S., with the actual reality described in this article.
2
The Seal's deplorable behavior is akin to ISIS, yet as a nation we are self-righteous thinking we are so much better than those monsters who behead. Let's clean up our own house of torture and barbaric behavior in our military before throwing hypocritical stones elsewhere. The soldiers with a conscience that reported the abuse should have been commended not badgered by the unethical and immoral military higher-ups! This unconscionable behavior is what grows terrorists at home, abroad and in the Middle East. As Americans, aren't we supposed to behave better than that?!!! Did we not learn anything after Abu Ghraib?!!!!
9
Disgust for the SEALs who did this. More than disgust for the Navy command that looked the other way, thus approving the behavior through their silence. As for Captain Smith, he shames himself, the Navy, and our nation.
“A society that admires its shock troops had better be bloody careful about where it’s going” - John le Carré, “A Perfect Spy"
“A society that admires its shock troops had better be bloody careful about where it’s going” - John le Carré, “A Perfect Spy"
10
A "Mini-My Lai Massacre" (Vietnam), all over again. Combat (and losses) of (truly) "loved ones" drives the participants "crazy" with revenge. No good solutions in wars.
But, we do fight in this one for some good reasons, IMO. The outdated (and terribly misogynistic) viewpoints of the Taliban (as well as those of ISIS, Boko Haram, et al) will bring on the 2d "Dark Ages" if they succeed in their ambitions.
But, we do fight in this one for some good reasons, IMO. The outdated (and terribly misogynistic) viewpoints of the Taliban (as well as those of ISIS, Boko Haram, et al) will bring on the 2d "Dark Ages" if they succeed in their ambitions.
I have never been to war and live a very comfortable life in the bubble of American suburbia but it's not a stretch for to me imagine a situation in which conventional morality fades into the background. I think judging these soldiers in a combat situation is not something I would want to do.
5
Cover-ups in our government branches? Naaaa
6
Virtual Reality vs. the Real Thing: watching N.C.I.S. on TV vs. What Actually Happens in the Field.
4
There are many things that have gone on during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that involve reprehensible conduct by contractors, government civilians and members of our armed forces. It is obvious from reports of this and other events that either standards were lowered or commanders failed to enforce the laws and rules governing the conduct of troops in combat and the treatment of those taken prisoner.
Many people with limited knowledge of our Military think of Special Operations troops as interchangeable which is far from the truth. As was stated in the article, Army Special Forces are very different from Navy SEALS in many ways. A question I keep asking that has yet to get a good answer is why do we have Sailors (SEALS- developed from Frogmen) playing Soldier in a landlocked country as it is about as stupid as the Army or Air Force fielding submarines.
If the Sailors (SEALS) involved were accused by other service members of war crimes it should not have been handled as an administrative affair by a local commander and should have been investigated by someone other than NCIS. Soldiers do not take reporting such things lightly and should not take them lightly- to witness a war crime and not report it is to make yourself an accessory.
I smell a coverup. NCIS should not be trusted to handle a dispute of misconduct of sailors (SEALS) by Soldiers. Having been a soldier, I know such things are not taken lightly, but apparently the Navy has a different view.
Many people with limited knowledge of our Military think of Special Operations troops as interchangeable which is far from the truth. As was stated in the article, Army Special Forces are very different from Navy SEALS in many ways. A question I keep asking that has yet to get a good answer is why do we have Sailors (SEALS- developed from Frogmen) playing Soldier in a landlocked country as it is about as stupid as the Army or Air Force fielding submarines.
If the Sailors (SEALS) involved were accused by other service members of war crimes it should not have been handled as an administrative affair by a local commander and should have been investigated by someone other than NCIS. Soldiers do not take reporting such things lightly and should not take them lightly- to witness a war crime and not report it is to make yourself an accessory.
I smell a coverup. NCIS should not be trusted to handle a dispute of misconduct of sailors (SEALS) by Soldiers. Having been a soldier, I know such things are not taken lightly, but apparently the Navy has a different view.
5
What's always most astonishing to me is the extent to which we think this kind of behavior is somehow unique to ... well, "psychopaths" or "criminals" or "terrorists" or the "other."
WE are the "other." Jung perhaps described it best when he noted the "dark" side which inhabits all of us while then noting how easy it is for those whose dark side has yet to so egregiously manifest itself (primarily because they have so far avoided circumstances like those of these young men in the hellish and unstructured conditions described in this story) to pass judgment.
WE empower that which we then describe as "evil." And there will be little hope of effectively harnessing that dark side until we are honest enough to admit our own failings.
WE are the "other." Jung perhaps described it best when he noted the "dark" side which inhabits all of us while then noting how easy it is for those whose dark side has yet to so egregiously manifest itself (primarily because they have so far avoided circumstances like those of these young men in the hellish and unstructured conditions described in this story) to pass judgment.
WE empower that which we then describe as "evil." And there will be little hope of effectively harnessing that dark side until we are honest enough to admit our own failings.
6
I think that's very true. If the "dark side" is not contained from the outset then it will run rampant and cause life-long regret and possibly death or life-long injuries for those on the abused side of "dark."
4
I remember when we used to be the heroes, but now it seems we always end up the enemy. We will never, ever, change cultures. Shouldn't even try. Then we ring our
our bloodied hands and wonder why they hate us.
our bloodied hands and wonder why they hate us.
7
What is different from the parallel article about the Chicago police? They are both sadists delighting in inflicting pain and they know they will be protected by those above be they police chiefs and mayors, generals and presidents. This is the nature of American Exceptionalism. Sick and getting sicker
5
We put expert killers and initiative re-capture experts in to relieve the community and support builder experts. The error is in leadership's decision to send in personnel to execute a job they pure and simple are Never trained for and lies outside their function, prowess, and expertise. We excepted them to carry on with zero course of retraining and rethinking. Retraining and rethinking in fact would have made them less effective as SEALs. Command needs to be held accountable here.
2
What these Navy SEALs did is as murderous and terrorizing as ISIS. Their assaults against innocent people were also treasonous, endangering U.S. military and Americans further. God help them and their brethren if they whine (sic) and rationalize that people do not know what it's like on the ground. We hung Adolph Eichmann in 1962. I think hanging would not be sufficient punishment for these men. As a taxpayer, I want a Nuremberg-like Trial. Let these men be made an example of.
5
This is shameful all the way up and down. These servicemen and their enabling, gutless superiors lose all respect by this behavior. They should go back home and wash cars if they cannot do the job correctly. No one forced them to join the special forces. Live up to the proper standards, have some honor and respect for your unit and your service, or don't pretend to represent this country. Not in my name, not on my dime.
11
First and foremost, really informative well written piece. The Captains Mast method of dealing with infractions of a lesser degree? Doesn't happen in the real world, but, although the military utilizes it? In this case, the ultimate outcome was one that allowed a commander to effectively quash any chance of a transparent independent investigation. What is extremely troubling to me is the extent to which high ranking military attorneys were simply ignored or overruled. It reeks of a system that is essentially rigging the outcome far in advance of the hearing, or a trial. You do not need to be an HR Specialist, or a high ranking military officer to know this. Another troubling revelation is the witness browbeating tampering that was evidenced by a number of enlisted personnel, as well as the fact that enlisted personnel were afraid of their colleagues in the seal units.
No matter how egregious the actions of a few were in the the field; the lack of follow up actions by ranking superiors ranks was breathtaking.
Lastly, no organization can maintain a functional healthy cohesive command structure when it is so clearly riddled with double standards of behavior. All behavior is modeled from the top down. You cannot expect soldiers to honor a code of basic human decency when you simultaneously game the system to help them avoid punishment for violating that very same set of rules.
No matter how egregious the actions of a few were in the the field; the lack of follow up actions by ranking superiors ranks was breathtaking.
Lastly, no organization can maintain a functional healthy cohesive command structure when it is so clearly riddled with double standards of behavior. All behavior is modeled from the top down. You cannot expect soldiers to honor a code of basic human decency when you simultaneously game the system to help them avoid punishment for violating that very same set of rules.
9
It is a sad event- there are many others serving our country doing a great job.
The savage behavior should be punished and the criminals must spend the rest of their life in the prison. Same goes for the bosses who covered it up.
We are the world leader and should behave in an exemplary matter. Belonging to Navy Seal does not give you the right to be a criminal. It is a severe blow to our great nation.
The savage behavior should be punished and the criminals must spend the rest of their life in the prison. Same goes for the bosses who covered it up.
We are the world leader and should behave in an exemplary matter. Belonging to Navy Seal does not give you the right to be a criminal. It is a severe blow to our great nation.
5
This is a product of an over reliance on Special Forces, in this case SEALS, to supplement our counterinsurgency abroad. To put it in a domestic context, this was like sending the SWAT team to run a field training program for rookie police officers. We also need more of our population to shoulder the burden of military service. The moral high ground that some on this thread purport to hold would quickly dissipate at the sound of the first gunshot or I.E.D. blast that put your own life in jeopardy. This death should be investigated, but so should our own self-righteousness, especially to those who have never been in war.
5
This is so sickening I couldn't even read it all. Those involved, including the captain, are not fit for and do not deserve the privilege of service to their country. They are a disgrace.
I will say this though - if you want more war you should know that you will get more behavior like this.
I will say this though - if you want more war you should know that you will get more behavior like this.
6
It's sad but these guys are a disgrace. You just worry that if one of ours is captured they'll experience the same fate. It doesn't build a solid relation with those people, it just creates the possibility for more terrorist or hatred for all Americans. That's not what we need. It doesn't make any of us any safer and it did no good.
3
how th mighty have fallen
1
While very few Americans are aware of this and thousands of similar occurrences, you can bet they are used and re-used by our enemies to recruit so-called terrorists who will do anything to exact revenge against any American, in or out of uniform. Those who rule our country have learned nothing from the last 200 plus years of foreign military interventions, starting with the shores of Tripoli and the halls of Montezuma. These events end up killing Americans and then our leaders tell us that "they" hate us because of our freedom. And we believe it.
10
No surprise to me that they beat people in detention to death. Once you've been a paid assassin for a while, I suppose it comes naturally.
While there is a tendency to focus on the stress these folks are under, excusing their excesses on that basis, the excuse makers forget these people are all volunteers, and all are following the guidance of their superiors. After World War 2 we executed generals whose troops behaved in that fashion. But I guess part of being exceptional, as in American exceptionalism, is that you don't have to adhere to international law, or act according to any code of conduct aside from that of the Mafia. Excuse me, I should not denigrate the Mafia.
While there is a tendency to focus on the stress these folks are under, excusing their excesses on that basis, the excuse makers forget these people are all volunteers, and all are following the guidance of their superiors. After World War 2 we executed generals whose troops behaved in that fashion. But I guess part of being exceptional, as in American exceptionalism, is that you don't have to adhere to international law, or act according to any code of conduct aside from that of the Mafia. Excuse me, I should not denigrate the Mafia.
14
I am writing to President Obama:
"Dear Mr. President, as a US Army veteran I demand that this issue be thoroughly re-investigated. If the charges are true, they bring dishonor and shame to the US Navy, the US Armed Forces and to the Commander in Chief."
"Dear Mr. President, as a US Army veteran I demand that this issue be thoroughly re-investigated. If the charges are true, they bring dishonor and shame to the US Navy, the US Armed Forces and to the Commander in Chief."
11
So much for joint operations, I hear a clamor for advanced SEAL sensitivity training. We will loose this war outright if some don't take an antacid soon and ignore half of what they see.
Ignore half of what we see. Our military is not full of barbarians, and, to act like barbarians brings dishonor to every member of the military.
Sensitivity training, please, whatever it takes to bring pride back in the ranks.
Sensitivity training, please, whatever it takes to bring pride back in the ranks.
4
@Dan,
"Sensitivity training, please, whatever it takes to bring pride back in the ranks."
If it means using the political process to remove their CINC then, please, I'm all for it.
"Sensitivity training, please, whatever it takes to bring pride back in the ranks."
If it means using the political process to remove their CINC then, please, I'm all for it.
So the NYTimes credits the denials of these three roving junk dealers that they did not perpetrate the attack on the outpost? They were having tea together when the bomb exploded. They have each other as alibis.
This is suddenly it's front-page news - how's that? It is supposed to have happened three years ago. From the timing and the content, one would conclude that the article is intended to humble Americans and stir Muslim outrage. It says: "We're the terrorists here. We're only getting what we deserve."
I, for one, will assume that the US forces were doing their job interrogating three terrorists. So should everyone else, until there's some solid investigative reporting to show otherwise.
This is suddenly it's front-page news - how's that? It is supposed to have happened three years ago. From the timing and the content, one would conclude that the article is intended to humble Americans and stir Muslim outrage. It says: "We're the terrorists here. We're only getting what we deserve."
I, for one, will assume that the US forces were doing their job interrogating three terrorists. So should everyone else, until there's some solid investigative reporting to show otherwise.
6
There already is, the Army soldiers that reported it would be one example of solid evidence. It's not like the NYT was there when it happened they story came to them precisely because the Navy and Army brass tried to suppress the justice lacking in this matter. They failed to do their duties.
5
I am at a loss as to how you missed the parts of this article that repeatedly reference the testimony of the four American soldiers. There are also complaints from two Navy personnel, and the Commander that was in charge of the seal team felt those members were unfit for duty.
9
Approximately 45-46 years ago there was a massacre committed by U.S. Army military members in an obscure village by the name of My Lai. The military then attempted to initiate a cover up of this atrocity. The rage from the good citizens of these United States was deafening.
Today, it is rally around those who have committed another atrocity.
In the conviction of on of the responsible persons in My Lai, it reinforced that our military, myself included as a retiree, are bound by rules of conduct and the laws of our country.
What these Navy personnel did was create more jihadists and give our country one more black mark.
Today, it is rally around those who have committed another atrocity.
In the conviction of on of the responsible persons in My Lai, it reinforced that our military, myself included as a retiree, are bound by rules of conduct and the laws of our country.
What these Navy personnel did was create more jihadists and give our country one more black mark.
15
This was wrong. I wish we would make it mandatory to read about all the similar incidents happened during WW2. Then our shocked nation could put this in perspective. We are and have been at war for over 14 years. Why can't we do a piece about these this warrior class that do the heavy lifting to keep us and millions of other innocents around the world safe. Risking their lives in horrible situations that no Hollywood movie could do justice to. I will be waiting for the story the Times does about these magnificent warriors and how, honorable, professional, ethical, patriotic, they are, what good fathers, husbands, citizens they are. Where is that story to balance this one? During former wars News Outlets had a greater sense of the harm that is done when stores like this are splashed all over the world and they would refrain from printing them. The Military Justice Department will see to this. We should just move on.
6
The military is under control of civil authorities, not the other way around. Yours is a model for cover-ups.
2
This is an insult to every serviceman and woman who has ever given themselves to the defense of this country. It is an insult to everything American. These SEALS clearly lack the level of maturity and respect for human life that their titles connote.
Some of our soldiers seem to have forgotten, or were never taught, that their actions are representative of the American people and ideal. They fail to realize that actions like these, aside from being wholly deplorable, serve only to strengthen the forces that we struggle to fight against.
I take solace only in the hope that there are more individuals like Specialist Walker and Sergeant Roschak, than there are men like these particular SEALS.
If there is more sure-fire way to lose this battle, I am not aware of it.
Some of our soldiers seem to have forgotten, or were never taught, that their actions are representative of the American people and ideal. They fail to realize that actions like these, aside from being wholly deplorable, serve only to strengthen the forces that we struggle to fight against.
I take solace only in the hope that there are more individuals like Specialist Walker and Sergeant Roschak, than there are men like these particular SEALS.
If there is more sure-fire way to lose this battle, I am not aware of it.
12
Green Berets on land is a better fit than SEALS out of water. I for one am not at all surprised by SEAL behavior, they are talented sailors trained to operate in the water doing so many things we cannot imagine, and we also train them to use guns. That tactical training, with the exception of Seal Team 6, is about as good as a rifle company in the US Army. They just don't understand or believe otherwise, and it shows in these stories and many more. They are only special when they are in the water. This is not disparaging the SEALS, they are great at what they do --in the water, but on land, they are not much better than an average soldier. The entire spec ops community knows this, except the SEALS of course. Ask any Ranger, Green Beret, Marine Recon or AF PJ. Look at the statistics in the battle field, it is very telling. Thanks to Hollywood and the collaboration with the US Navy, shows like American Sniper and Top Gun make the average American think that the Navy has the best soldiers and the best airmen. I will concede the US Navy is the best sea power in the world, sailors all.
9
First and foremost, I applaud the Army soldiers who came forward to report the abuse. There is a military pecking order--a non-SOF (special operations forces) specialist certainly "rates" much lower than elite SEALs. It takes courage to draw the line and recognize when someone oversteps it.
We often don't realize this, but foreigners--even in Afghanistan--closely follow our actions. They are incredibly well informed. This one event will shape how thousands of people view all our troops. One example of misconduct puts all of servicemen and women in danger. Just look at Abu Ghraib.
Finally, I appreciate how the Times identified that the SEALs were out of their place operationally. Most news outlets don't understand the nuance behind SOF--advising and training local forces is not what the SEALs are designed to do. This was unequivocally a mission for the Green Berets. Using SEALs in this capacity is indicative of how overtaxed our SOF are. Hats off to the Times for grasping this distinction when few do.
We often don't realize this, but foreigners--even in Afghanistan--closely follow our actions. They are incredibly well informed. This one event will shape how thousands of people view all our troops. One example of misconduct puts all of servicemen and women in danger. Just look at Abu Ghraib.
Finally, I appreciate how the Times identified that the SEALs were out of their place operationally. Most news outlets don't understand the nuance behind SOF--advising and training local forces is not what the SEALs are designed to do. This was unequivocally a mission for the Green Berets. Using SEALs in this capacity is indicative of how overtaxed our SOF are. Hats off to the Times for grasping this distinction when few do.
26
War IS Hell. We as a people cannot expect to place our finest young men into foreign lands in totally alien cultures expecting them to adhere to the values of our country. To do so places them in a position within which they cannot prevail. Therefore they quickly learn to adapt and survive or jeopardise themselves and their comrades. When your placed in harms way conduct is necessitated and dictated by the rules of engagement of the enemy regardless of what is demanded by the politically correct in the homeland who have never been in a war zone. All War Is Hell but more so when conducted by politicans. Vietnam Vet 69-70
5
We need a Chelsea Manning where ever our troops are. Most of them are only in the army because they are paid $20,000.00 to enlist. I know they are doing something the rest of you people won't do, but that doesn't excuse them for being thugs. I served, so I didn't include myself, that's why I said the rest of you.
11
Quit complaining, your wish has recently been granted starting at the top with an acting Secretary of the Army.
oh, my, how shocking
who could have seen this coming ?
who could have seen this coming ?
6
Please help me to understand. What is the difference between the actions described here and what we decry about Nazi, North Vietnamese, Stalin-era treatment of people? We're still the good guys, right? American exceptionalism, etc., etc. ?
17
It's nothing less than reprehehsible that the Times (and too many others in the media) spend more time and resources continually trying to undermine American war fighters by holding them to standards appropriate for cops on the beat. This shows no understanding of the challenges confronted by the infantrymen fighting an unavoidably very personal ground war against a vicious and pitiless enemy. You can't send young men armed to the teeth to a life or death struggle with determinee killers and expect they won't knock some people around. Never happened in the history of war and never will.
6
Slingshotting candy into the faces of local children and tossing grenades over base walls indicates a callous and indifferent attitude that if not fostered by the officer corps is tacitly approved. The actions described here were not in the heat of battle nor face to face in combat but rather at an outpost the men were delivered to. For what it's worth I am former USAF in a combat specialty.
14
Leave Capitalism Alone, that you are former USAF in a combat specialty, now posting here, is worth a lot. The only positive note here indeed is the ranks of military legal experts who are saying these men need to face court martial.
3
@ John Burke
"knock some people around"???
You need to reread the article again.
After investigating the matter, Commander Hayes, the OIC of Seal Team 2 "weighed in against the four Seal's, sending a letter to Captain Smith recommending that they be kicked out of the teams."
While Seal training is among the toughest in our armed forces, it isn't designed to strip the participants of their common decency or humanity.
Commander Hayes easily recognized his subordinates malfeasance in this matter, Mr. Burke.
Apparently, you need a program……...
"knock some people around"???
You need to reread the article again.
After investigating the matter, Commander Hayes, the OIC of Seal Team 2 "weighed in against the four Seal's, sending a letter to Captain Smith recommending that they be kicked out of the teams."
While Seal training is among the toughest in our armed forces, it isn't designed to strip the participants of their common decency or humanity.
Commander Hayes easily recognized his subordinates malfeasance in this matter, Mr. Burke.
Apparently, you need a program……...
7
We love the SEALs. So, they cannot do any wrong. Hollywood says so. Anyone who disagrees is a socialist. Or un American.
19
The Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo abuses and torture opened the door to this. Our only potential saving grace is, that door was opened by our civilian leadership at the time, with their special memos and clever lawyers.
It has been a hard lesson in the nature of my country, that subsequent civilian leadership did not hold anyone accountable for that stain, nor did they slam that door shut. But I refuse to be defeated, and I still have hope our military leaders will, eventually, act with more courage.
Alas, not yet.
It has been a hard lesson in the nature of my country, that subsequent civilian leadership did not hold anyone accountable for that stain, nor did they slam that door shut. But I refuse to be defeated, and I still have hope our military leaders will, eventually, act with more courage.
Alas, not yet.
4
I can't help to believe that when people in Latin America, Middle East etc read this article in the NY Times,they will no longer wish to come to America, legally or illegally.
3
Yes, great news. Thanks for cheering us up!
This is what war looks like. There are no rules. Chaos, ignorance, and testosterone are the martial music that accompany our patriotic lies.
3
The argument that the US must always be infallible and held to the purest of standards is great rhetoric for those that think we don't have real enemies and that the threats we face are abstract or somehow our own fault. But that mindset is wrong because it's not practical. Aggressive behavior toward the enemy doesn't foment terrorism. The terrorists are coming regardless. We have had the most neutered and PC approach in our military history to a known and declared enemy of the US...how has that worked out?
When all options are open to the enemy, we can't be so naive and sanctimonious. War is war. We need our Special Forces to do our dirty work because nobody else will. I guess the other option is to restate the draft. That would mean some Yale students likely get drafted. The same Yale students who apparently fall to pieces over Halloween costumes - a far cry from those that defeated the Nazis 70 years ago. Unfortunately, we don't have the Greatest Generation ready to go any more. We have these Yale students...
I say be realistic. Again, war is war. The enemy psychopathic. Let the Seals do their jobs.
When all options are open to the enemy, we can't be so naive and sanctimonious. War is war. We need our Special Forces to do our dirty work because nobody else will. I guess the other option is to restate the draft. That would mean some Yale students likely get drafted. The same Yale students who apparently fall to pieces over Halloween costumes - a far cry from those that defeated the Nazis 70 years ago. Unfortunately, we don't have the Greatest Generation ready to go any more. We have these Yale students...
I say be realistic. Again, war is war. The enemy psychopathic. Let the Seals do their jobs.
5
Killing civilians or shooting around people and animals for sport is not their job. If they can't or won't do their jobs, but want to have fun brutalizing those around them, it's time we pull them out. They're hurting our cause.
22
Really. Ask this dead man wife.
9
We don't have a "greatest" generation that was forced into military service by a draft. Rather, we have a totally volunteer military that has fought the longest war ("conflict" is a joke) in the history of the country. The vast bulk of the people complaining about the current generation either didn't serve during a time of armed conflict, or dodged it like Cheney, Rove, et all.
4
Let's put this in its broader context. Since Vietnam the US keeps getting tangled up in these distant wars that it can't win. It can't win because its tactics create more enemies than they kill. That is because the general rule is that an American life is worth a thousand natives, so we go after them from the air or by kicking down their doors at night, or by hiring the most venial and bloodyminded of the locals to do the dirty work for us. This approach is necessary because it is politically unfeasible to let too many Americans get killed, because the voters would not tolerate it, because there is no good reason for these wars. But yes there is a reason. We need to wear out our weapons so that the arms makers can sell us new ones and get richer on our money. The US can't win but they win big. Is that clear now?
20
These troops are coming home with so many psychological and emotional problems (rightfully so). There are federal grants that offset the cost for police departments to hire these returning veterans. Is it any surprise that we are having problems with policing here in America? The "us vs. 'fill in the blank' " attitude has to stop. The federal grants should instead go to mental health treatment.
18
Wasn't the NYT writing how horrible Afghan warlords were a few months ago? That they sexually abused children? Weren't the same commentators expressing regrets about our incapacity to stop those practices? When will you know what you want?
4
And that the Army Brass told the soldiers to ignore these little incidents? So what is different here?
8
As journalists, they seek to give voice to both sides. I like your insight too.
3
Given that $1.6 trillion dollars are being spent on this war, a war that America cannot win alone, it is a tragedy how all of the efforts and sacrifices of so many disciplined US military members were so readily erased by the alleged actions of this new SEAL team.
Perhaps the New York Times can give the Navy and the Department of Defense lessons on a cost effective way of how to properly conduct a criminal investigation. One of the most glaring points is how Captain Smith's statements about inconsistent evidence was revealed to be an outright fabrication. The Navy needs to conduct a real trial, not another Captain's Mast which isn't the venue for serious crimes of this nature. At the minimum, an Inspector General investigation of both Captain Smith and the SEAL team need to be conducted. Captain Smith's undue influence permeates this article.
America cannot allow the military to obscure these sordid crimes. To do so is a disservice to those who served and still serve. More importantly it undermines the military mission we are trying to accomplish.
Perhaps the New York Times can give the Navy and the Department of Defense lessons on a cost effective way of how to properly conduct a criminal investigation. One of the most glaring points is how Captain Smith's statements about inconsistent evidence was revealed to be an outright fabrication. The Navy needs to conduct a real trial, not another Captain's Mast which isn't the venue for serious crimes of this nature. At the minimum, an Inspector General investigation of both Captain Smith and the SEAL team need to be conducted. Captain Smith's undue influence permeates this article.
America cannot allow the military to obscure these sordid crimes. To do so is a disservice to those who served and still serve. More importantly it undermines the military mission we are trying to accomplish.
9
Captain Smith only did what he was expected to do. Who put it in his lap?
2
Because he is a ranking officer, not the shift leader at McDonald's.
2
PaulEaston
Not true. A Navy JAG who is a lawyer advised him to proceed with a court martial trial. Instead, Captain Smith used the Captain's Mast process that is not designed for allegations of murder.
Leave Capitalism Alone
Exactly he's the ranking officer, he should have let the process work it's way out, instead he deliberately undersold the good solid evidence to take to trial. Undue command influence is a legal term that can also be used to describe Captain Smith's actions and inactions for he's not a king. This case will definitely be reopened and Captain Smith's actions will receive the proper scrutiny they deserve.
Not true. A Navy JAG who is a lawyer advised him to proceed with a court martial trial. Instead, Captain Smith used the Captain's Mast process that is not designed for allegations of murder.
Leave Capitalism Alone
Exactly he's the ranking officer, he should have let the process work it's way out, instead he deliberately undersold the good solid evidence to take to trial. Undue command influence is a legal term that can also be used to describe Captain Smith's actions and inactions for he's not a king. This case will definitely be reopened and Captain Smith's actions will receive the proper scrutiny they deserve.
2
Superb investigative reporting. Stories like this one distinguish the Times as the paper of record.
While I share the horror most commentators here are expressing, I also worry that this story will rip America apart even more than it already is.
Ten bucks says that a fascist political leader will commend the beatings. If/when that happens, Tocqueville will rollover in his grave. "America is great because it is good," he wrote, and "when it ceases to be good, it will cease to be great."
While I share the horror most commentators here are expressing, I also worry that this story will rip America apart even more than it already is.
Ten bucks says that a fascist political leader will commend the beatings. If/when that happens, Tocqueville will rollover in his grave. "America is great because it is good," he wrote, and "when it ceases to be good, it will cease to be great."
14
“It’s unfathomable,” said Donald J. Guter, a retired rear admiral and former judge advocate general of the Navy....
maybe that's part of the problem. when you do not expect this behavior to happen under severe mental and physical stress, you do not know how to respond to it when it does occur or do not take steps beforehand to try to minimize its occurrence. and no matter what color the flag, or what color the uniform, it always does occur among at least a minority of troops that were trained to kill and to inflict damage and that have the attitude to kill or to be killed.
furthermore, using flags and uniforms also contributes to the problem because those using the wrong flag and uniform are automatically treated as an enemy. it's amazing how hazardous textiles can be.
maybe that's part of the problem. when you do not expect this behavior to happen under severe mental and physical stress, you do not know how to respond to it when it does occur or do not take steps beforehand to try to minimize its occurrence. and no matter what color the flag, or what color the uniform, it always does occur among at least a minority of troops that were trained to kill and to inflict damage and that have the attitude to kill or to be killed.
furthermore, using flags and uniforms also contributes to the problem because those using the wrong flag and uniform are automatically treated as an enemy. it's amazing how hazardous textiles can be.
2
Incorrect. I think the problem here is that there are no flags or uniforms. Asymmetric warfare involves insurgents blending in and out of the local populace. Textiles are not bad.
High command is at fault for sending the wrong unit to the the wrong assigment; like hiring the French Foreign Legion to run a day care center.
We are facing a barbaric enemy. Those who complain about our soldiers can join the service and do it better.
We are facing a barbaric enemy. Those who complain about our soldiers can join the service and do it better.
4
These guys are worse than an embarrassment, if one can trust the seemingly reliable reporting effort. They are traitors, not heroes, ensuring defeat rather than pursuing pacification.
Yes I've worn a uniform, it seems these folks don't deserve even a dog catcher's colors.
Yes I've worn a uniform, it seems these folks don't deserve even a dog catcher's colors.
16
If America is to fight terrorism, it has to first stop creating them. Banning muslims from entering or creating a Muslim database isn't a solution to terrorism. It is the soldiers acting in this manner which gives rise to terrorists. You kill their husbands and fathers and sons for no good reason and you expect their families to forget about it? That's how ISIS and Taliban recruit people by giving them incentives of revenge against their families.
Stop this act of violence and let the world be at peace. Stop poking nose into other people's business.
Stop this act of violence and let the world be at peace. Stop poking nose into other people's business.
7
Enough of the outrage at these guys. This is what they are. We need that. Understand that SEALs are not conventional soldiers. Their missions can take them outside of the conventional battlefield and involve actions of dubious legality. Their targets are not always armed combatants. And, whatever the circumstances, they have to execute their orders, to fight and kill, without hesitation. They may have to ambush and kidnap. The right candidate for the job must have a great capacity for violence and a relative lack of inhibition. No empathizing with the kidnap victim who will be rendered for torture. No consideration for women or children in the room with the target during a raid. You simply cannot expect these guys to not behave like the animals they are. The issue is that they are not being kept on a short enough leash.
3
The issue is that our Presidents think we need these goon squads.
2
In South America they call them Death Squads. But I think there they are asked not to wear their uniforms. They have more shame than we do there.
3
The Navy Seals are heroes. Leave them alone to continue protecting our freedoms. Thank god for them.
3
Beating bound men, one to death, does not make them heroes. They need to be brought to justice. What's even more frightening is the thought that these "heroes" would come back home and turn their training against the American people working for private security companies.
21
Going to go out on a limb here and predict absolutely nothing comes of this. We don't care when our own citizens here at home are gunned down by cops. Is anyone going to care about Afghanis halfway around the world? Unlikely.
8
Don't make excuses for these guys just because its 'war' and they are 'elite warriors'. As a former Green Beret with two years in Iraq can attest that this behavior would never have been tolerated by Army SOF. What is it that seperates American Soldiers from that of any other country? If you want to tell people that we are the good guys then you have to act like the good guys. Thousands of infantrymen, Green Berets, Civil Affairs soldiers and more risk their lives every day to do the right thing and it kills us, figuratively and literally when the SEALs show up and undo all of our hard work. They want to be heroes, they want their book deals and their movies and that is what is most important to them.
The same type of cover up occurred after chris kyle was found to be shooting unarmed civilians. Its a travesty that he is now considered an American hero and a great sniper. Great snipers don't run up their kill counts in an effort to become famous by shooting unarmed civilians. Its a disgrace.
Im looking forward to the day when the ISR footage from operation Redwings is revealed. Then the real 'lone survivor' story is going to come out and it isn't going to make anyone look good.
The same type of cover up occurred after chris kyle was found to be shooting unarmed civilians. Its a travesty that he is now considered an American hero and a great sniper. Great snipers don't run up their kill counts in an effort to become famous by shooting unarmed civilians. Its a disgrace.
Im looking forward to the day when the ISR footage from operation Redwings is revealed. Then the real 'lone survivor' story is going to come out and it isn't going to make anyone look good.
30
Nicely done. Not that my opinion matters, but this is the kind of stuff I expect any newspaper but especially the Times to do: taking it to the hoop against power centers. There is really no other point to journalism. Power has it's own PR, after all.
14
There is an argument that needs presentation, and that deals with how adults, in all walks of life, become dangerous to society.
In my opinion it begins in the home, in particular, homes where intolerance, racism, and hatred, are taught and nurtured, 24/7/365, all because millions know that their lives are of no importance, to the ruling class, evidenced by the abject, and deliberate failure to do anything for them.
Into that environment add broken marriages, family members in prison, little or no work, and if there is a paying job to be had, it's at a wage that is at the poverty level.
And to add further insult, our government, instead of expanding social programs, to give people hope, it tears the heart out of these programs, throwing people aside like so much garbage.
For many, the only way forward is to join the armed forces, where many excel and become wonderful people, and many others take the pent up anger from years of want, and vent it on those who cannot protect themselves.
I see an increasing level of anger, here in our nation, and to some degree, in many other nations as well.
Government caters to the .01%ters, continuously ignoring the basic needs of the masses, the people who mistakenly thought they would be heard.
I used to believe we would find a way out of this hole we are in, but I'm not so sure anymore.
Wanton avarice, as practised by the masters of us all, the eternally selfish .01%ters, will cause major problems in the years ahead.
In my opinion it begins in the home, in particular, homes where intolerance, racism, and hatred, are taught and nurtured, 24/7/365, all because millions know that their lives are of no importance, to the ruling class, evidenced by the abject, and deliberate failure to do anything for them.
Into that environment add broken marriages, family members in prison, little or no work, and if there is a paying job to be had, it's at a wage that is at the poverty level.
And to add further insult, our government, instead of expanding social programs, to give people hope, it tears the heart out of these programs, throwing people aside like so much garbage.
For many, the only way forward is to join the armed forces, where many excel and become wonderful people, and many others take the pent up anger from years of want, and vent it on those who cannot protect themselves.
I see an increasing level of anger, here in our nation, and to some degree, in many other nations as well.
Government caters to the .01%ters, continuously ignoring the basic needs of the masses, the people who mistakenly thought they would be heard.
I used to believe we would find a way out of this hole we are in, but I'm not so sure anymore.
Wanton avarice, as practised by the masters of us all, the eternally selfish .01%ters, will cause major problems in the years ahead.
7
This the responsibility for this murder lies with the Commander in Chief. As a citizen I am disgusted not only at the murder but at the cover up and subsequent promotion. It is beyond the pale. Those that committed these murders and those that protected them deserve to be court marshaled.
Look no further than this act to explain ISIS.
Look no further than this act to explain ISIS.
9
Because of the malfeasance of the few, the rest of us get tagged as the "Ugly Americans."
From Captain Robert E. Smith on down to the actual perpetrators of this outrage and subsequent coverup, nothing less than a court martial will suffice.
Disgusting………….
From Captain Robert E. Smith on down to the actual perpetrators of this outrage and subsequent coverup, nothing less than a court martial will suffice.
Disgusting………….
18
Prolonging the war. Staining our character. Men in action too long. Sad all around.
2
I can't help but note that the real lead story of the day, the budget busting, corrupt budget deal, is buried with no comments allowed. Instead we get stuff like this as the lead. Which story is more important and threatening to the American people? Just more purposefully misleading, damaging, reality denying buffoonery from the establishment and its media I guess.
Looking at the budget deal you realize that there are only two things lower then the irrational degenerates and criminals that comprise the Democrat political establishment:
The dishonest, corrupt and incompetent, corporate and statist media and lowest and most disgusting of all, the lying, backstabbing, incompetent Republican establishment.
With choices like these why shouldn't Americans abandon the political process and the media and rise up? Yet our pundits cannot understand the rise of a Trump or the long overdue, righteous anger of the long suffering, American people. Vote? For who? Which thief gets to talk down to you and steal from you and your children or read a media that exists to mislead and distract you?
Looking at the budget deal you realize that there are only two things lower then the irrational degenerates and criminals that comprise the Democrat political establishment:
The dishonest, corrupt and incompetent, corporate and statist media and lowest and most disgusting of all, the lying, backstabbing, incompetent Republican establishment.
With choices like these why shouldn't Americans abandon the political process and the media and rise up? Yet our pundits cannot understand the rise of a Trump or the long overdue, righteous anger of the long suffering, American people. Vote? For who? Which thief gets to talk down to you and steal from you and your children or read a media that exists to mislead and distract you?
2
Maxine, you nailed it, as I was thinking the same thing. All the grand theatre, then you get these bills, with hidden corporate welfare, but don't dare think of anything sensible like infrastructure work for our roads and bridges, oh wait, I forgot! Our companies are moving their headquarters to tax havens, thus no reason to fund that one. And of course, I could go on and on, but people have been trained to have a tiny attention span, so I guess that those like you and me are a dying breed.
3
This is elaborate obfuscation. We cannot be credulous enough to accept these denials, the expressions of shock and dismay. This is how the United States now operates around the world. (Even many of those in the military don't yet understand this.) Accept the bad news and decide what to think, and do, about it.
And we wonder why others hate us so much...
And we wonder why others hate us so much...
9
If cops can do it here at home, why not Seals, abroad? We're either decent and honest, or we're not.
17
I as an American am so ashamed.
10
tl;dr
I blame the people at the top, the generals and the president who sent them there.The president has some pretend-power, enough to conduct Terror Tuesdays.
Why is the US in the MENA?
Resources and Bases.
I blame the people at the top, the generals and the president who sent them there.The president has some pretend-power, enough to conduct Terror Tuesdays.
Why is the US in the MENA?
Resources and Bases.
4
Let our troops do their jobs. This is war and SEALS and other armed forces do the fighting while politicians try to tie their hands while asking them to do more. Either we go over and fight or bring our troops home; there is no touchy feely when people are trying to kill you. Remember 9/11, we lost more Americans than the attack on Pearl Harbor.
4
As a veteran I feel the need to explain to you civilians that the military work's very different from what you are used to. 24 hour watches on top of 12 hour work day's with no days off sometimes for a month or more combined with the constant threat of bombs morters and all the other fun stuff can add up. I know plenty of people who got into a very primal sort of mentality it's how they keep functioning under very hard conditions. It is very easy to sit at home nice and warm with a full belly and "armchair" quarter back things when you have all the info and know how it ends. These people are tiered stressed and don't have all the info, also they have other people whose sole life's purpose is to try to kill them lurking every day all day. Things happen under these circumstances and we don't know exactly what went down so let's cool the reteric down abit and be thankful someone is risking their lives for you ok
4
Poor excuses. Simpering and whining. They failed to do their jobs and they're not riskng their lives for me or any civilian, they're bringing shame to their country. You should be ashamed, too. Show some integrity and stand up for what's right.
10
Agree to a degree. We are not talking about the soldiers living on the edge day and night for months or years away from home. That is totally different story. We are talking about special forces sent there for the wrong reason and the wrong purpose and maybe ordered to do what they did. To begin with, even the soldiers had no purpose of being there but our myopic and outlandish chiefs have forgotten that nobody from Alexander the Great to the Russians was ever able to subdue these warriors. Maybe, the military apparatus works in many dark ways the soldier in the front line never learns about, he only serves obscure interests sadly at times not even seeing the result of his actions.
3
errata on my post: "no we have rules..."
2
Look at you, all huffy and outraged; brimming with contempt and disgust. You're probably sitting in a place akin to Greenwich Ct. basking in the glow of a Christmas tree exploding with presents. Secure in the knowledge that your generational wealth and white collar status will protect you forever. If you didn't serve or felt that your kids were too smart, special or privileged then you don't have say in this matter (No your tax dollars don't give you a license to judge these service members either) . 99% of you have no concept what it is to harden your body and sear your conscience by donning a uniform and leaving friendly lines to enter the maelstrom of a deadly complex, unpopular.protracted meat grinder that is Afghanistan. Most of you would die just from living in the conditions of these operators much less enduring combat.Want to be the change you want to see in the world? GOOD. Go enlist or better yet hand walk your precious little angel blossom to the local recruiters office; high school diploma, SSN card and birth certificate in hand. All 4 major branches have Special Operations units. Were the Seals beyond reproach on this one.... probably not but that doesn't give you, comfortable, entitled, exceedingly smarmy, non-serving civilians a license to judge. An investigation was conducted and they were cleared. Just say "Thanks for paying more than my share" and continue abiding in your life of frivolity excesses and pop culture...
7
You don't know any of the people you are evincing such contempt for. But your comment, in its contempt, its anger, its lack of respect for anyone but your chosen "heroes", is indicative of exactly the sense of entitlement and immunity to morality and decency that underlies abuses of power like those recounted here. Other people are not vermin, and your heroes are not gods. They are paid to serve, not to rule; and certainly not to commit crimes that harm the cause of our own nation. We do not owe these criminals gratitude for that; we need to remove them before they do more harm.
18
Says the guy from Oceanside, CA. How many times, exactly, have you watched "A Few Good Men", Col. Jessup?
14
Kudos!
1
I appreciate the difficult position so many of our soldiers (and Navy Seals) are put in, but this kind of incident and the impunity of the perpetrators (promotions, no less!) is an insult to everybody who tries every day to do their jobs with diligence, honesty, and integrity, and might do promotion-worthy work for years before getting recognized. Promoted? That really adds insult to this outrage.
16
But I thought these guys on the SEAL teams were our honorable, humble, patriotic Christian warriors? I've seen American Sniper and I've been told ad nauseum that anyone who wears a uniform is automatically a hero, so this story can't be true, right?
31
If someone killed my brother the way that the suicide bombers and cowardly IED makers have been I would be fighting mad as well. There are no rules in war, oh except for the rules that only the good guys have to follow. It's war. To act otherwise is letting the. As guys win.
6
And if Americans killed your brother as these men did, what? If you were an Afghan or Iraqi person, you'd feel even more strongly, but on the other side. And so the bleeding goes on.
13
fighting mad sure. but when fighting mad turns into random violence, nobody wins. and if the good guys don't follow the rules they ain't the good guys anymore.
14
"There are no rules in war." Sounds like something on a Waffen SS poster. And, of course, this conclusion is based upon your vast experience in actual combat......
8
Yup.. My dad, a career green beret, always described the SEALS as 'yahoos' and as far back as the 70's recommended to SOG command that they be totally 'disbanded'. While under his observation, one of their teams unwittingly triggered several (unknown to the public) international incidents while training in Greece. He said at the end he just left them in the middle of the country somewhere, drunk and naked, after they used the highly classified maps the Greek army had loaned them for kindling wood. YAHOOS! Looks like not much has changed.
19
I am so ashamed of this country we are no longer the shining light on a sitting hill. We are the the criminals now a days and we wonder why no one trusts us anymore. We need to rekindle the old peaceful America not this criminal America. I want it for my country and the world alike.
45
"We" never were. Sounds like you still believe your indoctrination. Why not open your eyes? The truth is reported in newspapers every day, though not nearly enough of it, of course. It is only your filters that prevent your knowing.
4
War is a big moneymaker for some and that's all that counts these days. If we want to fix America we need to start with the political/economic system.
3
What old, peaceful America are you referring to? We are tame compared to our historical past. I don't think your knowledge of warfare is extensive enough to grasp the barbarity of the past.
3
We lost most of the battles and we certainly lost the war, if by war we meant helping those people create a sustainable alternative to violence and corruption. What we know for sure: That our so called 'special' soldiers are highly trained in killing but clueless about what they are actually meant to do there; that politicians will spin and twist the narrative of how all of this happen to their own advantage; and that some political and military leaders are eager to send still more young men and women to die there.
9
Jensetta,
There is much to debate about the NYT article. What is not debatable however, is that all special operations forces (SOF) are the same. It is important for you and others to know this. The article identified an Army special unit, the U.S. Army Special Forces (SF)/Green Berets that was first there at this outpost. Please re-read the article.
Our government (President John F. Kennedy) has long recognized, dating back to Vietnam, the need for special soldiers that not only were experts with their weapons but were experts with people as well. What this article identifies, in addition to the SEAL's conduct, is the need for more SF soldiers.
Jensetta, please don't take my remarks as an advertisement for SF. The wars we fight that are among civilian populations require these specially trained soldier/diplomats. And yes, I am a former US Army Special Forces A-Team member.
There is much to debate about the NYT article. What is not debatable however, is that all special operations forces (SOF) are the same. It is important for you and others to know this. The article identified an Army special unit, the U.S. Army Special Forces (SF)/Green Berets that was first there at this outpost. Please re-read the article.
Our government (President John F. Kennedy) has long recognized, dating back to Vietnam, the need for special soldiers that not only were experts with their weapons but were experts with people as well. What this article identifies, in addition to the SEAL's conduct, is the need for more SF soldiers.
Jensetta, please don't take my remarks as an advertisement for SF. The wars we fight that are among civilian populations require these specially trained soldier/diplomats. And yes, I am a former US Army Special Forces A-Team member.
1
It is obvious what the message is for our elite troops: it's okay to beat, torture, and kill those we suspect of being enemies of the state even if we don't know conclusively that they are. That the SEALs involved in this case were not disciplined for this sort of behavior, and actually promoted after the fact, sends a clear message that these men were doing what they were hired to do. We can talk about the fog of war, but this situation is remarkably clear: our best troops acted like animals and got rewarded for their behaviors.
15
It is the type of abuse I assumed would happen with the increased use of "security forces," AKA paid paramilitary groups under contract with no direct responsibility to the US Military.
What is wrong with our leaders - the President, Congress, the very top brass???
It is quite a testament to the Army that soldiers interviewed had a good idea of what the mission was supposed to be, and were willing to witness to mistreatment; and a blot on the Navy that it feared to confront what it had created.
We do not have the kind of in your face news coverage that helped get us out of Vietnam: how many people will even see this? We have no draft which made everyone's family vulnerable, and has resulted less homogeneity in troops. If you asked a dozen people on the street where we have active troops, or are engaged in combat, I'd bet less than half could even answer. And the only 'news' coverage is from approved embedded reporters.
What is wrong with our leaders - the President, Congress, the very top brass???
It is quite a testament to the Army that soldiers interviewed had a good idea of what the mission was supposed to be, and were willing to witness to mistreatment; and a blot on the Navy that it feared to confront what it had created.
We do not have the kind of in your face news coverage that helped get us out of Vietnam: how many people will even see this? We have no draft which made everyone's family vulnerable, and has resulted less homogeneity in troops. If you asked a dozen people on the street where we have active troops, or are engaged in combat, I'd bet less than half could even answer. And the only 'news' coverage is from approved embedded reporters.
4
Why are we surprised by this behavior? These reported episodes are just the tip of the iceberg, only the episodes uncovered. What is interesting is that the comments here seem to cast blame/responsibility on the Seals only. The fact is the local Afghans are the ones abusing their own people with continual impunity. Individuals given power over their own countrymen almost always utilize such power to a greater degree than one would otherwise think, often for personal vengeance and payback for past misdeeds. This in effect becomes another lesson in why coming in as an outside stabilizing influence and then turning over governance to the local populace is a disaster waiting to occur.
4
Writers like 'shockratees' conveniently overlook many facts. Terrorists are usually very cruel cowards. Their beliefs are not based upon American reactions to vicious attacks, and that the whole revenge psychology is based on the disgust that American soldiers feel when faced with the moronic type of ;men;' they see kill and maim their fellow Americans. Deep emotions are aroused, and sometimes men 'lose it'. The Taliban, the IS sadists understand only too well the feelings that are aroused because they are little people full of envy, jealousy and inadequacies when faced with the very essence of America and other free countries of the Western world.
2
This is the great evil of foreign military adventures: they brutalize the outside force as much as the locals. That's been the lesson of all empires or would-be empires. And they creates a class of warriors and a warrior mentality that are as dangerous at home as a abroad. The Afghans have been subject to such brutality from centuries of conquerors, and they may have come to expect it. But we've lost our souls if it doesn't horrify us, and the only way to end it is to bring our forces home. Otherwise it's inevitable and we turn our armed forces, of whom we want to be proud, into monsters.
7
This is another example of why military commanders should not be acting in the roles of either prosecutors or judges. This military system is archaic and needs to be reformed. It miscarries justice for victims of rape, murder and mental illness.
In the Bergdahl case, this man was kicked out of the Coast Guard for his mental impairment, subsequently hired by the Army, yet he is being tried for his foreseeable bizarre actions, based on political pressure. In 2013, a jury convicted Air Force Lt. Colonel James Wilkerson of raping, Ms. Kim Hanks; however, Air Force General Craig Franklin overturned the jury's decision and dismissed all charges. In the present case you have a military commander, Captain Smith who refused to criminally prosecute an undisciplined SEAL team for murder, claimed there was inconsistent witness statements. Yet the Army soldiers provided enough consistent testimony to warrant a trial--that's why it's called a trial. Equally disturbing, senior enlisted Navy SEALs tampered with the witnesses.
Captain Smith's unethical loyalty to these alleged murders exceeds that of the duty owed to our nation. Unfortunately, Smith's actions is a common problem where commanders ignore evidence or seek to diminish the crimes committed. This murder cover up illuminates the all too common conflicts of interest inherent to so-called military justice. Most soldiers are disciplined this SEAL team wasn't. Reform is needed for victims and for enforcing discipline.
In the Bergdahl case, this man was kicked out of the Coast Guard for his mental impairment, subsequently hired by the Army, yet he is being tried for his foreseeable bizarre actions, based on political pressure. In 2013, a jury convicted Air Force Lt. Colonel James Wilkerson of raping, Ms. Kim Hanks; however, Air Force General Craig Franklin overturned the jury's decision and dismissed all charges. In the present case you have a military commander, Captain Smith who refused to criminally prosecute an undisciplined SEAL team for murder, claimed there was inconsistent witness statements. Yet the Army soldiers provided enough consistent testimony to warrant a trial--that's why it's called a trial. Equally disturbing, senior enlisted Navy SEALs tampered with the witnesses.
Captain Smith's unethical loyalty to these alleged murders exceeds that of the duty owed to our nation. Unfortunately, Smith's actions is a common problem where commanders ignore evidence or seek to diminish the crimes committed. This murder cover up illuminates the all too common conflicts of interest inherent to so-called military justice. Most soldiers are disciplined this SEAL team wasn't. Reform is needed for victims and for enforcing discipline.
20
The truth is, if the NY Times wanted to comprehensively cover US military atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan, they would have to devote every page of every issue to the topic.
Who even remembers the 'Collateral Murder' video, released by Wikileaks, in which our brave "servicemen" as they are preposterously referred to, sprayed civilians (including children) with gunfire, murdered those who showed up on the scene to assist the wounded, then laughed about it like it was a big joke?
The whistle-blower was thrown in a dungeon for 30 years, the head of Wikileaks is imprisoned in a foreign embassy and NONE of the killers has even been identified, let alone, prosecuted.
Who even remembers the 'Collateral Murder' video, released by Wikileaks, in which our brave "servicemen" as they are preposterously referred to, sprayed civilians (including children) with gunfire, murdered those who showed up on the scene to assist the wounded, then laughed about it like it was a big joke?
The whistle-blower was thrown in a dungeon for 30 years, the head of Wikileaks is imprisoned in a foreign embassy and NONE of the killers has even been identified, let alone, prosecuted.
27
One wonders what the criteria for selecting them are.
1
This behavior in is not acceptable, by committing these action we are making matters worse. with a terrorist group like this these acts will heighten their "passion." We as America have to be the example.
5
Ugly things happen when you go to war; if you don't like it don't go to war. The New York Times laid down a red carpet for President Bush to go into Iraq and Afghanistan after 9-11. You can paint it anyway you want. The US has hired killers on its payroll because they feel the need to have them there. You need bad guys to fight bad guys. You can't expect them to be diplomats too. You can't have it both ways.
2
Who was in charge when this happened and why didn't they bring charges and the original disciplinary action suggested by Hayes? Seems that given the severity of the charges and complaint against the SEals that Cpt Smith would have conferred with HIS superiors before taking any actions...
The Lt in charge of this Seal team seems to either lost complete control, or have condoned the previous Seal actions of tossing hand grenades, taking potshots at natives and other undisciplined behaviors that undermined the mission and potentially caused or contributed to deaths of US soldiers and or coalition partners/allies.
Walker should be thanked for having the courage to tell the truth. We would do well to consider his sacrifice as the corrupt will seek to undermine his credibility and unleash false statements against him. Stand tall Walker!
The Lt in charge of this Seal team seems to either lost complete control, or have condoned the previous Seal actions of tossing hand grenades, taking potshots at natives and other undisciplined behaviors that undermined the mission and potentially caused or contributed to deaths of US soldiers and or coalition partners/allies.
Walker should be thanked for having the courage to tell the truth. We would do well to consider his sacrifice as the corrupt will seek to undermine his credibility and unleash false statements against him. Stand tall Walker!
16
And we wonder why we are losing everywhere ?
11
If Navy SEALs covered up a beating death, where is the Commander and Chief?
6
Well they covered it up so he never heard about it. Can't blame someone for something they couldn't possibly have known anything about.
6
They covered it up from the public, but such news filters up in its own ways... Read Kelly Flinn's "Proud to be" book.
1
"The SEALs’ failure to restrain the Afghan Local Police" This incident happened in 2012, eleven years after going into Afghanistan. After all that time in the country if the US military still needs to "restrain" the local authorities then either we've not done our job or the entire project has been a waste of time, lives and money. I'm going with the latter. You can only help people who want to be helped. Our way of life works here and in other Western countries, beyond that not so much. When will we learn that!
Why are readers crucifying the NYT for reporting this story?
4
Guess they don't like hearing the truth, especially when it's about the military. We are constantly being inundated with stories and articles about the heroes in the military, day in and day out. There are many heroes in the military, but not all of them are by any stretch of the imagination. Some have let this praise go to their heads and they believe it. They think themselves unique and special. They consider themselves above the law and feel they shouldn't be held accountable protecting "Homeland". And by the way, where did this homeland statement come from. Sounds much too much like the fatherland to me. How about using the good old U. S. of A?
5
My guess is, if there's one thing a lot of Americans really enjoy, it's crucifying people over something that offended them.
2
This is disgusting. Bravo to the Army soldiers who stood up - but the SEALS and everyone who touched this case should face criminal charges. They should be kicked out of the Navy and then locked up for life - because clearly they're a danger to society. Psychopaths with no conscience and no sense of morals and responsibility.
They make me very ashamed to be an American. I only wish there were some way to reach out to the Afghans who were tortured and beaten, and give them justice and recompense.
All that, and we never should have been there to begin with.
They make me very ashamed to be an American. I only wish there were some way to reach out to the Afghans who were tortured and beaten, and give them justice and recompense.
All that, and we never should have been there to begin with.
6
There is a huge difference between the way the Army's Green Berets are trained to operate, and the missions given to Navy's Seals. The only thing they have in common is that both operate as small, separate Special Forces units, and both are capable of extreme individual combat abilities.
One section of the NYT lengthy article partly explains the difference. The Green Berets created during the Kennedy Administration and the beginnings of the Vietnam War operate to 'win the hearts and minds' of remote locals while helping and training them fend off armed insurgents. Seals are trained to do independent kill or capture strike missions while also training locals.
Since the Green Berets set up the outpost I don't think it was smart to turn it over to a Navy Seal Team which obviously had little if any training in how to with with, rather than against, locals.
I hope the decision was not based on the US command just looking for a place to assign Seal Teams.
No Army Special Forces units that I, over 27 two-war military service years, observed would have treated those Afghan civilians or police that way.
Green Berets
One section of the NYT lengthy article partly explains the difference. The Green Berets created during the Kennedy Administration and the beginnings of the Vietnam War operate to 'win the hearts and minds' of remote locals while helping and training them fend off armed insurgents. Seals are trained to do independent kill or capture strike missions while also training locals.
Since the Green Berets set up the outpost I don't think it was smart to turn it over to a Navy Seal Team which obviously had little if any training in how to with with, rather than against, locals.
I hope the decision was not based on the US command just looking for a place to assign Seal Teams.
No Army Special Forces units that I, over 27 two-war military service years, observed would have treated those Afghan civilians or police that way.
Green Berets
2
This is just astounding. There are literally THOUSANDS of pages of eye-witness testimony about what Green Berets did to civilians in Indochina. It makes the current article seem mild in comparison.
2
The myopia and compartmentalization and denial on display in this Green Berets' comment is indeed astounding. Yet it is also instructive. What will we do about it?
2
Thank you, NYtimes, for your important work in bringing these injustices to light. Lets hope that the proper heads will roll.
12
Do you send care packages to Islamic terrorists who truly make "heads roll"? You should thank the Seals for keeping you and your fellow countrymen safe.
2
The John Smiths of this country exist. They are not the majority, yet they could carry the day. They believe Navy SEALs and others should act ruthlessly to maintain the United States' dominance of the world. They are nationalists and jingoists. They are likely to support a fascist demagogue if one is nominated to run for President.
What will we do about it?
What will we do about it?
3
The militarized evil in this nation is a disgrace. Stories of SEAL excesses, accidental and "accidental" military violence against civilians, widespread use of torture techniques that we executed Japanese officers for using against us, and the deployment of mercenaries with illegal weapons and techniques have been around for years. Our own military's reports indicate that it's an institution riddled with mass rape, overwhelmingly unreported and even more overwhelmingly unpunished. It's a pathetic, evil disgrace, and yet the perpetrators are endemic in the most trusted institution in this wretched nation. Nearly 1% of our country's population has served in Iraq/Afghanistan, and for what? A huge, disgraceful, criminal set of wars that have emboldened our enemies. Fight militarism! Join a community that works for peace! If we don't end this, it'll end us by wrecking the international establishment.
-Proud Christian conscientious objector.
-Proud Christian conscientious objector.
6
We could tell ourselves that these things are simply the kind of terrible things that happen in war & leave it at that. But that presupposes that the overall war itself was at least necessary, constitutional, & morally justified (as e.g., in WWII), which has always been dubious with respect to what we did in Afghanistan, and clearly not the case regarding our invasion of Iraq. Add to this the condoning of torture of POWs, the promotion of these wars largely by people who avoided service themselves & by the Religious Right, the war-profiting, etc., and it's a shameful disgrace.
4
I understand why this happens and it's sad - A comrade is lost - and may be, I've chosen the same! - some times I wonder why not Gandhis thinking isn't shared more. To get peace, 1 part has to start, also at a comrade loss. This person is not alive no more and the comrades is shaming his death.
It's a fact blind hatred/sorrow/revenge or fear do not solve anything, it creates just more hate.
Christmas is close and what did Jesus tell? To forgive, as God forgave us! It's time to think!
It's a fact blind hatred/sorrow/revenge or fear do not solve anything, it creates just more hate.
Christmas is close and what did Jesus tell? To forgive, as God forgave us! It's time to think!
1
The Seal community has lost more men in the last 14 years than the rest of its history. The reunion each year joins many amputees from the battles.
This abuse is the result of a country that thinks we can continue sending, for decades, the same men into battle.
Less than 1% fight. Do you really believe when the number is that low that we are getting the best of America?
If you look at the number of Commanding Officers relieved for cause. The Naval Admirals caught up in scandals. You will begin to understand there is a crisis in the Military.
I had the opportunity to serve during the draft and continued to serve under the all volunteer force.
Believe me, it's better when everyone serves.
It brings the best America has.
This abuse is the result of a country that thinks we can continue sending, for decades, the same men into battle.
Less than 1% fight. Do you really believe when the number is that low that we are getting the best of America?
If you look at the number of Commanding Officers relieved for cause. The Naval Admirals caught up in scandals. You will begin to understand there is a crisis in the Military.
I had the opportunity to serve during the draft and continued to serve under the all volunteer force.
Believe me, it's better when everyone serves.
It brings the best America has.
5
No. It's better when NO ONE serves. We would not be dealing with ISIS today and hundreds of thousands of innocent people would still be alive.
4
Thank you Times for doing this story. I guess the Times might be close to the last newspaper that is willing and able to put in the work that this required. Since hardly anyone knows what is going on, and they don't even know that they don't know, American democracy is in bad shape.
As for the war in Afghanistan it is clear that we will never win. The only reason the fighting continues is because we pay for it. The people hate us because the locals that we hire are worse than the Taliban, because only a sociopath would work for us.
As for the war in Afghanistan it is clear that we will never win. The only reason the fighting continues is because we pay for it. The people hate us because the locals that we hire are worse than the Taliban, because only a sociopath would work for us.
9
In my seventh decade of life, I have reluctantly concluded that we Americans are the most violent people in the world, as well as the most technologically empowered to wreak our violence. We are all the more dangerous for our protestations that we are, at heart, peaceful but ready to defend ourselves. That is a lie. We flaunt and boast of our ability and our inclination to kill wherever, whenever, and in whatever measure we deem appropriate. Quibbles about legitimate vs. illegitimate violence miss the point, which is that, at home or abroad, violence is our default choice.
11
Proving once again that wisdom does not necessarily come with age. Here we are agonizing over this fairly minor incident, while our enemies revel in their brutality. And yet you think we are the most violet people in the world. I thank God we still have men willing put themselves in harms way to protect us. How much long will men volunteer to serve in the Armed Services and the police when they are under the constant threat of criminal charges. I sincerely hope the next President makes Capt. Robert E. Smith an admiral.
3
"constant threat of criminal charges." Wow, what a thing to say. You honestly believe that? Everyone should be aware that when they break the law, they'll be prosecuted. The military in this country are already far too arrogant self-important, let's not make them any worse. Exempt the military from the law? Boy that beats all. No wonder this country has problems.
6
We ignore bernard of brooklyn at our peril. He does not represent the majority, yet his attitude is not rare. He appears not to understand his country's place in history, its status as a horrific actor and pariah among the world's peoples.
Here he is calling this "a fairly minor incident."
Here he is calling this "a fairly minor incident."
2
And people wonder why we're so hated in some parts of the world. Appalling and disgusting. Unfortunately not too surprising, though.
5
japarfey....you're right. That's why no one wants to immigrate to America,
1
People criticize things like this, but it is unfortunate collateral in the unbelievably hard job SEALS and our armed forces undertake every day. People say that this kind of behavior fosters deeper hatred and terrorism against the United States. That's a legitimate point. But people are quick to forget that the seeds of colonialism and years of cold war proxy battles did that already for a large part of the world. The seeds were sown long ago. Now, we have our brave young men and women fighting to stop those who wish to hurt us from the memories of the past and the legacies of hundreds of years of foreign intervention.
Some people on these boards think stopping our action overseas will magically make everything better and stop terrorism. That's incorrect. The world is not perfect. Human beings are capable of evil, greed and hatred at all levels and in all parts of the world. I am willing to give the armed forces freedom to conduct their jobs as they see fit, with some oversight. But the only thing that will allow the world to truly be at peace is the freedom of choice, economic opportunity and basic human rights. Regardless of the covert reasons for the United States' role overseas, we are still fighting regimes and a mindset that is bent on dominating all life in front of it.
For that, I give our troops and military the latitude to do what they believe is necessary. Because fighting a mindset that seeks to dominate human life is a cause worth fighting and dying for.
Some people on these boards think stopping our action overseas will magically make everything better and stop terrorism. That's incorrect. The world is not perfect. Human beings are capable of evil, greed and hatred at all levels and in all parts of the world. I am willing to give the armed forces freedom to conduct their jobs as they see fit, with some oversight. But the only thing that will allow the world to truly be at peace is the freedom of choice, economic opportunity and basic human rights. Regardless of the covert reasons for the United States' role overseas, we are still fighting regimes and a mindset that is bent on dominating all life in front of it.
For that, I give our troops and military the latitude to do what they believe is necessary. Because fighting a mindset that seeks to dominate human life is a cause worth fighting and dying for.
Excuse me Charlie I must be getting confused. Who did you say is bent on dominating all human life?
5
The SEALs should never have been involved with a "community building" project. They are trained to kill, destroy and perform missions that few folks have the ability or the fortitude to undertake. This is a clear example of failure in leadership and poor administrative judgement. However, I find it offensive and hypocritical to read the barrage of generalized comments condemningt the SEAL personnel themselves.
Only the tiniest sliver of our citizenry is being asked to shoulder the responsibilities and horrors of war, while the rest of the yahoos in this country pontificate about "duty" and "honor" and "morals" from their couches with a cup of coffee. That is why our service men and women today are so crippled with PTSD and suicide--their missions never end. The overwhelming majority of citizens do NOT have children serving in the military, and they will NEVER know the anguish of losing their precious children overseas. If you or your children are not willing to walk a mile in their shoes, shut your mouth because you do not have the right to condemn.
Let's be brutally frank, if the average helicoptering parent lost their "exceptional-perfect-gift to humanity" child to the Taliban they would be the first person in line who would want to obliterate the entire country of Afghanistan off the face of the earth.
Only the tiniest sliver of our citizenry is being asked to shoulder the responsibilities and horrors of war, while the rest of the yahoos in this country pontificate about "duty" and "honor" and "morals" from their couches with a cup of coffee. That is why our service men and women today are so crippled with PTSD and suicide--their missions never end. The overwhelming majority of citizens do NOT have children serving in the military, and they will NEVER know the anguish of losing their precious children overseas. If you or your children are not willing to walk a mile in their shoes, shut your mouth because you do not have the right to condemn.
Let's be brutally frank, if the average helicoptering parent lost their "exceptional-perfect-gift to humanity" child to the Taliban they would be the first person in line who would want to obliterate the entire country of Afghanistan off the face of the earth.
36
"Let's be brutally frank, if the average Afghan villager lost their "exceptional-perfect-gift to humanity" child to a cowardly US drone strike, they would be the first person in line who would want to obliterate the entire United States off the face of the earth.
8
I believe you are mistaken, and that you need to take a moment to see why.
I served my country in Vietnam is the late 1960s but it would never occur to me that only those of us who served had the right to speak about the political and moral consequences of that war. It's tragic that so many brave men and women have to die in ill-conceived wars, but the fact of their deaths cannot be used to negate the 'right'--and the obligation--of every citizen to speak out.
Sadly, we hear this argument more and more, about soldiers/contractors who violated the basic rule of war and about police and corrections officers. Honestly, people need to stop saying nonsense like this.
I served my country in Vietnam is the late 1960s but it would never occur to me that only those of us who served had the right to speak about the political and moral consequences of that war. It's tragic that so many brave men and women have to die in ill-conceived wars, but the fact of their deaths cannot be used to negate the 'right'--and the obligation--of every citizen to speak out.
Sadly, we hear this argument more and more, about soldiers/contractors who violated the basic rule of war and about police and corrections officers. Honestly, people need to stop saying nonsense like this.
4
"Cowardly US drone strike"? We are at war, Voiceofamerica, and unless your child is on the front lines with his or her boots on the ground, you have absolutely no right to make that statement.
We can argue for eternity on the consequences for waging war. There will be a limitless number of points and counterpoints to the causes of terrorism and how to keep it in check. And let's be clear: I'm not advocating for war, I have many times questioned the politics and the conduct of our military expeditions, and I certainly do not condone what has transpired in this military report.
However, you are precisely the kind of person that I single out as a hypocrite and a coward. There are only two ways to engage an enemy position-- either directly with your son or daughter holding a rifle, or from afar with a mortar or drone. Unless you are a parent belonging to the first group, you should be careful how you judge certain life altering decisions.
We can argue for eternity on the consequences for waging war. There will be a limitless number of points and counterpoints to the causes of terrorism and how to keep it in check. And let's be clear: I'm not advocating for war, I have many times questioned the politics and the conduct of our military expeditions, and I certainly do not condone what has transpired in this military report.
However, you are precisely the kind of person that I single out as a hypocrite and a coward. There are only two ways to engage an enemy position-- either directly with your son or daughter holding a rifle, or from afar with a mortar or drone. Unless you are a parent belonging to the first group, you should be careful how you judge certain life altering decisions.
2
We hero-worship people like Navy Seal Chris Kyle for using high-powered rifles and scopes to plunk away at people who don't even know they are targeted or why and wonder at the actions of these Seals? What did we expect adulation of that sort of behavior would render? More of it, perhaps?
There are people in our society, in every society, but especially in ours that was born and bred in violence, who are natural born killers. I expect that the natural born killer description fits a goodly portion of those who become Navy Seals. While it may be necessary to have those sorts around when the chips are down, the chips aren't down now and haven't been for a long, long time. We are making a grave mistake in giving them a Middle Eastern/Afghan playground in which to cavort.
Some civilized somebody who understands that killing is not a sport but is only to be used as a last resort needs to be policing the playground.
There are people in our society, in every society, but especially in ours that was born and bred in violence, who are natural born killers. I expect that the natural born killer description fits a goodly portion of those who become Navy Seals. While it may be necessary to have those sorts around when the chips are down, the chips aren't down now and haven't been for a long, long time. We are making a grave mistake in giving them a Middle Eastern/Afghan playground in which to cavort.
Some civilized somebody who understands that killing is not a sport but is only to be used as a last resort needs to be policing the playground.
6
Appalling.
3
It's more than just this isolated case of what appears to be abuse. We as a country just do not seem to grasp that these wars continue for decades because we are not wanted in this area. Even if we kill all the ISIS, Taliban or other terrorists we will still be seen as imperialist crusaders and incidents such as this just reinforces those feelings. There will always be a younger generation to replace the fighters that we kill now. It's time we got out of the Middle East and let the local countries solve this problem or not. We have stopped doing any good to this area of the wold and it's time to leave.
13
We didn't win WWII by adopting the methods of the Nazis. We never abandoned our moral compass. These men have stained the U.S. Military with their barbaric behavior. They need to be prosecuted.
A lone stay in Leavenworth is too good for them. Shooting at farmers, trucks and kittens? From where do we get the right to preach to the Middle East if these are our best men?
A lone stay in Leavenworth is too good for them. Shooting at farmers, trucks and kittens? From where do we get the right to preach to the Middle East if these are our best men?
13
I agree with you, but these are not our best men. They are our most effective killers, and that usually doesn't go along with being moral.
6
Nor it seems does having the ability to distinguish between the enemy and innocent civilians and pets.
5
Once, in the post-WW2 period, we thought the United States to be advocates of democracy in the world. Now we are asking each other to whom we have to be more afraid of: the US, Russia, China or ISIS? Christian Lee, Switzerland
5
Christian, let me help you with your moral dilemma. If you were forced by circumstances to emigrate to either the US, Russia, China or ISISstan, which would you chose? See, that was easy.
4
Yes GLC the US is the best place to live because we aren't bombing or droning ourselves yet.
6
That's some self-righteous stuff from someone whose country's banks have gladly aided every corrupt tyrant in the last 50 years by safely and secretly holding their ill-gotten funds. Go away.
4
I have several contradictory thoughts on this matter: I hate the idea of war. It's the failure of politics and sanity. On the other hand war and terrorism is the triumph of resentment against centuries of hard won western and modern values tha must be preserved and protected. "Rough men stand guard at night so that you may sleep".
1
...and the Brooklyn hipsters pile on. Actually I unsubscribed from the nyt because of this headline. This is news and worthy of an investigation, but the world wide movement of Islamic extremism only receives apologetics in these pages. I'm glad to go. This isn't the same NYT I grew up with. Its a version of huffpo with fewer pictures.
7
The headline is exactly the article's topic, and it seems to be quite apt. It's the truth, I think, that has disturbed you. Most of us have no intention of piling on, but it's important that our nation not willfully create new enemies, not to mention the moral aspect of committing murder, and even being a non-hipster and from Oklahoma, I second that point.
3
Let's be clear, there is a difference between Special Operations and Special Forces (Green Berets). The SEALs are exceptional at their mission. They are not trained nor suited to do what Special Forces do. Special Forces are meticulously cross-trained in multiple military occupational specialties to be able to create a guerrilla force from scratch. All are multi-lingual and are expected to be warrior-diplomats. As an Airborne Infantry veteran of Vietnam and a member of the 12th Special Forces Group (before its merger) I am deeply troubled by this story and must opine that higher command has to take a second look not only at the SEALs involved directly but at the performance of their chain of command.
22
You can handcuff the SEALs and have fewer such incidents, but there is cause and effect. More Americans may die as a result. We can't have it both ways...so pick one.
12
Gee maybe if we got out of there less Americans would die.
6
Not 99pct NY, NY
Your comment makes no sense. How does brutalizing and murdering innocent people and taking potshots at children and pets protect Americans?
It's also derogatory to the SEAL's in general, (and worrying) to suggest this kind of depraved behavior is the norm, their m.o. , their reason for being - "fewer incidents if they were handcuffed"?
Contrary to what you say, more people will die as a result of the backlash to this kind of treatment as has been proved by record numbers joining fanatical groups, whether by force or choice, the rise of ISIS. If not by force, it's often the only option for protection (most do not have the money to leave the area) especially if they are orphaned children or it's hopelessness and anger against those who killed their families and destroyed their country. Better the devil you know when caught between a rock and a hard place - the majority of humans make that same choice.
Your comment makes no sense. How does brutalizing and murdering innocent people and taking potshots at children and pets protect Americans?
It's also derogatory to the SEAL's in general, (and worrying) to suggest this kind of depraved behavior is the norm, their m.o. , their reason for being - "fewer incidents if they were handcuffed"?
Contrary to what you say, more people will die as a result of the backlash to this kind of treatment as has been proved by record numbers joining fanatical groups, whether by force or choice, the rise of ISIS. If not by force, it's often the only option for protection (most do not have the money to leave the area) especially if they are orphaned children or it's hopelessness and anger against those who killed their families and destroyed their country. Better the devil you know when caught between a rock and a hard place - the majority of humans make that same choice.
7
very poor argument. No one is talking about handcuffing the SEALs. The points is that the SEALs should not do FID - Foreign Internal Defense. This is the remit of the Green Berets (Special Forces) or others who have been trained by them and have the right training, temperament, and cultureal/language training.
If there aren't enough SF, they should have sent regular Army, or reserves, or no one at all (even no one would be better than a bunch of SEALs with IQs half their weight (in kilograms)
If there aren't enough SF, they should have sent regular Army, or reserves, or no one at all (even no one would be better than a bunch of SEALs with IQs half their weight (in kilograms)
4
American Exceptionalism - something we hear hear a lot about from our politicians - was earned, not conferred by some God. We've forgotten that what is earned can also be lost, and by Dog, we're working overtime, it seems, to lose it.
3
Now with women now being allowed in there ranks maybe we will see some professionalism.
There is a definite problem with vetting of ALL special forces.
There is a definite problem with vetting of ALL special forces.
3
Most of these supposedly "elite" units will never women within their ranks. They will always have an excuse for not doing so, and it will be condoned. I'm sure the sexual abuses will climb higher with more women in the military. When you start to tell a bunch of people that they better than anyone else, they start to actually believe it. The military will play at accepting women, but they'll never fully embrace it.
2
Rest assured that if we force them out of the SEALs, the next place they'll show up will be as Secret Service agents in a drunken bar brawl. The issue isn't right and wrong, it's our national addiction to testosterone.
8
Did you support the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan? Now, be honest. Don't change your vote now that you don't like the inevitable outcome of perpetual war.
I'm pretty sure that dropping rocks on someone's chest is not something these guys learned at Annapolis.
2
The perpetrators must be severely punished; they deserve life sentences. And perhaps in the future applicants for these "elite" squads should undergo personality tests to screen out psychopaths.
4
@Anne,
The problem lies with the military. The "elite" squads have no business dealing with the day to day governing of the local police force. It's not what they were trained to do. Period!
The problem lies with the military. The "elite" squads have no business dealing with the day to day governing of the local police force. It's not what they were trained to do. Period!
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. After a couple of years at, in every war, morale and ethical behavior falls precipitously and PSTD climbs fast enough that these things are predictable. The best prevention is to not go to war. The 2nd best is to end a war within 3 years. This phenomena has happen in the every was, and to the U.S. in every war. One would think that the military would have studied this and started to figure out how to manage it.
2
These troops, the SEALs, are supposed to be the best of the best, and yet they amuse themselves by "…aiming slingshots at children, striking them in the face with hard candy." How mature is that!?
If the Afghans want to revenge the death of one of their own, they are treated as insurgents or even terrorists. But when the SEALs do it, it is understandable and those involved might even be promoted, like in this case.
It also makes me wonder, what kind of processes and tests does the Navy have in place when they choose who will become a SEAL? Based on this article, those processes and tests need to be updated right away.
This is interesting and, most of all, important article.
If the Afghans want to revenge the death of one of their own, they are treated as insurgents or even terrorists. But when the SEALs do it, it is understandable and those involved might even be promoted, like in this case.
It also makes me wonder, what kind of processes and tests does the Navy have in place when they choose who will become a SEAL? Based on this article, those processes and tests need to be updated right away.
This is interesting and, most of all, important article.
2
I so wish I were shocked by this disgusting behavior and the too familiar pattern of cover up.
5
After "disclosure" by some hard-working reporters & people in "the military" & without, brave enough to "step-up", I again feel ashamed to be a U.S. citizen.
Like we did several decades ago, when the U.S. was engaged in bad behavior, we started say we were "Canadian", when we traveled.
So, now that we've bungled in Vietnam, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, where next ?
Like we did several decades ago, when the U.S. was engaged in bad behavior, we started say we were "Canadian", when we traveled.
So, now that we've bungled in Vietnam, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, where next ?
4
Rounding up the "usual suspects" and beating them is a bad policy in countries where insurgents are deeply embedded in every village. All it does, is to validate the claims of our enemies.
Stories like this illustrate the sad fact that we are not even trying to win the propaganda war.
The Afghan conflict continues to drag on and on, because we have a propaganda problem, not because our troops are bad shots. As any good executive always says, "Fix the stuff that's broken".
During WWII we had a superb propaganda machine cranking good material that helped to demoralize the enemy. Sadly, we seem to have lost our knack for doing this. Perhaps that is because our "BIG BRASS" seems to be focused on the procurement of fancy hardware, to the exclusion of every thing else - even the dress uniforms of our troops have been cheapened.
Stories like this illustrate the sad fact that we are not even trying to win the propaganda war.
The Afghan conflict continues to drag on and on, because we have a propaganda problem, not because our troops are bad shots. As any good executive always says, "Fix the stuff that's broken".
During WWII we had a superb propaganda machine cranking good material that helped to demoralize the enemy. Sadly, we seem to have lost our knack for doing this. Perhaps that is because our "BIG BRASS" seems to be focused on the procurement of fancy hardware, to the exclusion of every thing else - even the dress uniforms of our troops have been cheapened.
3
The SEAL members' anger is understandable, the savagery and malice of the land they had to patrol would make most people savage in return. And this is nothing out of the ordinary for Afghanistan, in fact the SEALs were far less brutal and homicidal than authorities have always been in that country. I'd expect most Afghanistani would figure that if they were taken into custody by any law enforcement, they would be scarred for life or maimed, if they were lucky enough to live through it.
However, we're not Afghanistan, we're America, and we're supposed to be a heck of a lot better than this. If justice is to be done, these offenders should all be given dishonorable discharges and varying jail sentences depending on what they specifically did; some should probably do time for manslaughter charges. We can't overlook this kind of malfeasance, or we will become the atrocity-committing enemies we're supposed to be fighting.
However, we're not Afghanistan, we're America, and we're supposed to be a heck of a lot better than this. If justice is to be done, these offenders should all be given dishonorable discharges and varying jail sentences depending on what they specifically did; some should probably do time for manslaughter charges. We can't overlook this kind of malfeasance, or we will become the atrocity-committing enemies we're supposed to be fighting.
8
The only bright spot I can see in this is that CDR Hayes did exactly what the Law of Armed Conflict, Navy Regulations and the Uniformed Code of Military Justice require: being made aware of a possible violation by members under his command, he effectively relieved the members of their duties, called for an investigation by NCIS and reported his actions to higher authority. As for the actions above his level, I am speechless.
98
Disgusting. Our so-called military elite acts like inner city gangs when they go overseas. Maybe that is an insult to gangs.
4
What these SEALs seem to have done, and the cover-up, are atrocious and I'm grateful to the Times for giving it the attention it needs. But some commenters seem to have missed the equally compelling story of the courage of these enlisted soldiers, including SPC Walker and SSGT Roschak, who spoke out and continued to speak out in the face of pressure from very senior Navy personnel. I was impressed and heartened by their part of this story, and their willingness to be interviewed for this piece.
6
This is the no. 1 reason why the coalition forces lost in Afghanistan and why the Taliban will come back in not so distant a future. To understand that asymmetric warfare cannot be won by brute force alone is not rocket science. But somehow the US military brass cannot comprehend that. And their politicos, stupid as they are, go along. What a tragedy of deception, confusion and incompetence.
1
While I empathize with "Tony's" thoughts, I think that the story highlights how the actions of the few, aided and abetted by those in authority who choose to condone or ignore, can diminish the truly heroic work of the other men and women in special operations. Had this incident not been trivialized, and, instead, prosecuted, it would brought further honor on the SEALs and similar teams. RAK
2
My heart sunk as I read this article. War, especially prolonged conflicts, just dehumanizes the warriors and the people they fight for. I understand the SEALs' anger but I feel sick when their actions are described. Either we have a war to win hearts and minds or we wage a war of pure destruction. It doesn't appear that both are possible.
2
After reading about these "incidents" perpetrated by so-called SEAL Team "operators", my impression is that they are DSM 312.8 conduct disorder kids.
I'm anxious about where they will be "placed" when they are "discharged".
Please, at the risk of sounding like a NIMBY, not in my neighborhood.
I'd rather have refugees from Syria.
I'm anxious about where they will be "placed" when they are "discharged".
Please, at the risk of sounding like a NIMBY, not in my neighborhood.
I'd rather have refugees from Syria.
2
I am all to well aware of Navy cover ups. The SEALs cannot be placed in this position to win hearts and minds, they are rapid killing forces not liaisons. The Captain, who I know will never be court martialed for covering this incident up, definitely does not honor the uniform nor the rank. The commander of the SEALs is responsible at all times. These men should have been placed under military arrest for violating engagement rules and for murder. Lack of oversight is not a legitimate justification for what these SEALs did. I urge Specialist Walker to watch his back if he is still in the military. SEALs do not take it lightly when they have been exposed for wrong doing nor the Navy brass. This is exactly why winning hearts and minds with soldiers will never work. I am not surprised these incidents have occurred, they are always inevitable in a War, but they are worse when inept and incompetent commanders are at the helm.
2
More than anything else, this report demonstrates why long-term military engagement inevitably creates power relationships that will only turn the population against the occupiers. If military history teaches us anything, it is that military occupation in the Middle East does not create peace, civil society, or stable governments. What the U.S. military is doing in the Middle East is not a Marshall Plan. The more enemies and misery this occupation creates or seems to create in the minds of the population, the more horrific retaliation (what we call terrorism) will result. In the recent Republican debate, "carpet bombing" was discussed with no understanding of what it means historically and ethically. Lindsay Graham's seemingly deep-seated desire for WW III bubbled up repeatedly. Many of us who sit comfortably at home and have no inkling of what it means to live in the Middle East that U.S. policy has created can't imagine the insanity this article so well depicts and so many of us will just go on voting for more of the same insanity.
2
We're fast approaching the point where President Obama will be commander in chief of US forces in Afghanistan for a longer period of time than President Bush. Perhaps we need to look to President Obama and ask him the tough questions as to how these type of atrocities continue to manifest themselves under his watch, after him being acutely aware of the "torture" that occured in Iraq. An effective Chief Executive would have asked the tough questions and put controls in place to ensure something like this wouldn't have happened yet again.
We ring the doorbell of every terrorist by acting this way. Trump wants to keep muslims out of the U.S.? Maybe he should switch and find a way to help keep us out of the Middle East.
12
How much of our humanity and our souls and our goodness are we, as a people, as a nation, willing to sacrifice for the better good? Wars have always brought out the worst and the best of both sides. Will this question ever be answered? Probably not. Religion certainly hasn't solved the problem; in many ways it's been the reason for the conflict to start with in the first place. Pride of country, nationalism, righteousness, "exceptionalism"? Is there a right way to fight a war, to kill other people? Rules of engagement, codes of conduct and conventions have been written over the years to try. Sometimes they've worked, sometimes they haven't. War is hell. Is that enough to justify our actions?
4
Not that I'm condoning this behavior in any way but it would never have happened if we didn't send our troops to a place we should never have been in the first place to fight a war we never should have started.
96
We have an all-volunteer force. Regardless of how you and I feel about this particular situation (we agree), they are still supposed to be held to a certain standard.
1
Renzo,
I think most people would agree, we had pretty good cause to be in Afghanistan.
Also, hard to see how these guys shouldn't be prosecuted.
I think most people would agree, we had pretty good cause to be in Afghanistan.
Also, hard to see how these guys shouldn't be prosecuted.
2
It figures. In a country where anyone in the military is automatically hero-worshiped, no hero can be punished for murder. America is rapidly becoming Sparta. The valorization of the military must stop.
31
I don't think Spartan soldiers were known for such undisciplined and pointless violence. And even generals would be called back to be killed for infractions against the code of contact. All things considered I would probably rather face Spartans than a Seal team.
1
Why are we still there anyway? OBL and his Saudi suicide thugs are dead and so is Hussein. Why can't we ever just do the job and go home.
6
As a retired Navy Master Chief I take great exception to your singular reporting of one potential occurrence of disobedience and misbehavior by the Navy Seals. Why not choose to focus on the good that these warriors do around the world instead? These are difficult times and we need young men to face terrible circumstances around this messy world we live in. We repeatedly call on our Special Warfare community to engage the enemy in less than favorable situations in lands far away from home at a moments notice. Instead of reporting about men like Petty Office Michael Monsoor and Lieutenant Michael Murphy, Navy Seal Medal of Honor recipients, you choose to invest all your investigative energies into a negative aspect of warfare rather than the men that routinely demonstrate honor, courage and commitment every day they put on their uniforms. Shame on you New York Times.
42
As an American, and also a veteran, your inability to understand why this is news saddens me. Acts of heroism get lots of press, as they should. Everyone in uniform also gets honored daily, In the malls, at sporting events, on TV. These men wore our flag, they acted as our representatives, and they dishonored our country...and then walked free with a slap on their little fingers.
16
One might ask a similar question: Why would a news organization choose to focus on 2 Muslim-American radical jihadists who conducted a mass shooting on a special needs school, killing 2 dozen people, instead of focusing on the millions of peaceful, intelligent Muslim-Americans (and other Muslims) that contribute to our society daily?
The fact is that when a school gets shot up, it's a news story. And when "one occurrence of disobedience and misbehavior" results in the beating and death of a civilian (and then an attempt to cover it up), it is also a story. The American people have the right to know about these things happen in war, so that they can be prevented in the future. No one is above the law. Not even Navy Seals. They are a security force that we, as hard-working tax-paying Americans, have hired to do a job. It is not a job forced upon them, but one they have asked for; presumably because it give them a sense of meaning and purpose. It's a job we need done, and I assume the vast majority do their job admirably. But we expect that job to not only be done effectively, but ETHICALLY. When they wear that flag on their shoulder, they represent all of us. And abusive behavior that this investigative report points out, (even if only in a tiny percentage), needs to be exposed and punished. Because it is this very behavior that winds up creating new terrorists, which puts us all in more danger.
The fact is that when a school gets shot up, it's a news story. And when "one occurrence of disobedience and misbehavior" results in the beating and death of a civilian (and then an attempt to cover it up), it is also a story. The American people have the right to know about these things happen in war, so that they can be prevented in the future. No one is above the law. Not even Navy Seals. They are a security force that we, as hard-working tax-paying Americans, have hired to do a job. It is not a job forced upon them, but one they have asked for; presumably because it give them a sense of meaning and purpose. It's a job we need done, and I assume the vast majority do their job admirably. But we expect that job to not only be done effectively, but ETHICALLY. When they wear that flag on their shoulder, they represent all of us. And abusive behavior that this investigative report points out, (even if only in a tiny percentage), needs to be exposed and punished. Because it is this very behavior that winds up creating new terrorists, which puts us all in more danger.
14
This comment only serves to make even clearer why the SEALSs involved escaped justice. And why America is failing in Afghanistan.
11
Now it should be clear, why THEY hate us ?
21
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
10
Not if the people in their beds are Afghanis.
3
I doubt any Afghan civilians men, women, children, would agree with that sentiment. All many know is that rough men from another country do great violence to them for no reason.
Btw: thank you to the Soldiers who stand up against brutality and depravity, show respect for humanity and have the courage and integrity to report criminality among their ranks, they are the real Soldiers, the others are just gangbangers, thugs, in uniform.
Btw: thank you to the Soldiers who stand up against brutality and depravity, show respect for humanity and have the courage and integrity to report criminality among their ranks, they are the real Soldiers, the others are just gangbangers, thugs, in uniform.
4
SEALs protect other SEALs. It's no surprise the Captain who ultimately dismissed the charges is also a SEAL (see his badge above his ribbons in the photograph). As noted in the article, different Special Forces groups have different skills. It's too bad Pentagon commanders who assign deployments don't seem to know that fact, or don't consider it when assigning forces. Seems to me some careers are about to come to an end.
29
Several of the previous posts reflect on the challenge of fighting a determined enemy in Afghanistan while "winning the hearts and minds". Special Forces train and advise missions are by doctrine much different than the SEALS. No doubt the military in general is simply using the resources available rather than utilizing those best trained for the specific mission. that said, all the Special Operation forces must be "fatigued" with over 14 years in Afghanistan and another 8 years on Iraq for a total of 22 years of combat operations with many deployed 8 to 10 times. This in itself causes problems.
No doubt the SEALS and all of us who have served in Afghanistan (2003-04) are exhausted with the "hearts and minds" initiative with the end state to "make friends" with the locals. We all know this is a false initiative from the political metric of US policy in Afghanistan. Simply said, most Soldier, Marines and SEALS do not believe in that ideology any more..if ever.
Few readers can understand the intensity when seeing a friend maimed by an IED with both legs blown off with body parts surrounding the angony of the moment. This experience changes a person's demeanor and judgement in some cases.
The decision of the Captain's Mast was correct when considering all the factors...I repeat..all the factors, to include the darkness of working and operating in such a difficult situation.
Pakita/Khost 2003-4 (LTC, US Army)
No doubt the SEALS and all of us who have served in Afghanistan (2003-04) are exhausted with the "hearts and minds" initiative with the end state to "make friends" with the locals. We all know this is a false initiative from the political metric of US policy in Afghanistan. Simply said, most Soldier, Marines and SEALS do not believe in that ideology any more..if ever.
Few readers can understand the intensity when seeing a friend maimed by an IED with both legs blown off with body parts surrounding the angony of the moment. This experience changes a person's demeanor and judgement in some cases.
The decision of the Captain's Mast was correct when considering all the factors...I repeat..all the factors, to include the darkness of working and operating in such a difficult situation.
Pakita/Khost 2003-4 (LTC, US Army)
2
I couldn't disagree more. Military codes of behavior apply under all circumstances. There can be no acceptable excuse for this type of behavior and the violation of other's human rights. Responsible people behave responsibly. They do not excuse misconduct for any reason when other's lives are at stake for sport to escape boredom.
2
Wow, "all the factors", So the LTC has the complete file on this case. Impressive. This must explain why others, much more qualified than the LTC in criminal investigations and military justice, do not know what they are talking about when their conclusions differ from the LTC.
1
I disagree with you about the punishment, but understand and respect, your perspective. Maybe we could both agree that our current mission(s) in the middle east are no-win situations and should be revised or ended?
The biggest and most dangerous delusion we have is that it is possible to have a "moral" war where we use our "smart" weapons and only the bad guys suffer and die. War should only be a measure of last resort. Those that have been in wars understand this completely. The rest of us who have not been, understand very little. Very easy for us to pass judgements sitting far away from the insanity. If we need go to war then there are no "innocents" on the other side. Never have been; never will be.
Thugs and murderers spreading hate all around the world. This is by no means the first time we have tortured and killed innocent Afghan civilians - and yet we continue to absolve the guilty.
The idea of "staying till we fix what we broke" is laughable at this point.
The idea of "staying till we fix what we broke" is laughable at this point.
6
President Obama should order his secretary of defense or secretary of the navy to look into what happened here. If the Army soldiers' accounts are correct, then crimes were committed. A Captain's mast proceeding would not seem to be the appropriate way to figure that out. The Navy officer who conducted that proceeding should probably face some scrutiny regarding the basis for his decision to dismiss all the charges at the Captain's mast stage.
3
I fear the only difference between the modern American Military (and possibly even the American civil Police Forces) and the Gestapo is that the Gestapo came out on the losing end and their atrocities were broadcast and understood. We Americans need only look at our racial strife, our being spied on by our Government, and the torture, abuse, and depravity against people in their own land, to realize why the right wing politicians in this country have so much support from so many American bigots and religious fanatics. We are replicating Germany in the 1930s. We are embracing Fascism. "Exclusiveness" and "exceptionalism" are just NEWSPEAK for a mentality of "if they ain't us, kill em' all and let God sort em' out." And the entertainment industry and all this "gung ho" pro-militarism is evidence of a Neo-Nazi movement in America. This is not a safe situation. Personnel who can do this to "others" soon become desensitized in doing it to their own. People who feel safe now, soon become suspects and find their status diminished to that of something less than human. Please America, wake the hell up before it's too late !
5
The villagers inform and sympathize with the Taliban because the consequences of talking to or aiding US infidels and the corrupt Afghan government are more certain, and far worse than occasionally fatal beatings. The SEALS could have given the suspects tea and cookies and still be blown up the next day with half the village knowing what was coming down.
The US military is on a mission impossible in a 8th century culture that will always fight and seek martyrdom to expel invaders. We should have exited the nation and let the Taliban and locals who oppose them fight over this bloody ground in 2004.
The US military is on a mission impossible in a 8th century culture that will always fight and seek martyrdom to expel invaders. We should have exited the nation and let the Taliban and locals who oppose them fight over this bloody ground in 2004.
2
War is far and away the most psychologically debilitating of all human endeavors. What happens amidst the fog it creates should only shock the truly naive. When you place people in harms way 24/7, the rules that apply in a civilized society no longer apply. I'm not exonerating the Navy for sweeping this under the rug, but let's no be too quick to judge the perpetrators considering what we have chosen to subject them to in this never ending war.
3
Long wars create their own being deaths.
Did any of these 3 authors--or their brothers or sisters--ever serve in the military, much less in a combat zone?
You can always depend on the Times to leap at any story of alleged abuse by US soldiers and assume their guilt. Moreover, the Times has a particular vendetta against the SEALS, as shown by a recent story charging them with using tomahawks and--horrors!--rescuing a hostage but shooting his captors who had already killed a SEAL.
Wrongdoing by US soldiers should be exposed, but I do not trust this messenger.
You can always depend on the Times to leap at any story of alleged abuse by US soldiers and assume their guilt. Moreover, the Times has a particular vendetta against the SEALS, as shown by a recent story charging them with using tomahawks and--horrors!--rescuing a hostage but shooting his captors who had already killed a SEAL.
Wrongdoing by US soldiers should be exposed, but I do not trust this messenger.
4
One does not have to serve in the military or have experience of combat to know that brutality, torture and murder of innocent civilians, men, women and children, and yes even pets! is wrong and illegal - even in a war zone there are rules of law and limits.
2
I am not ruling out that these servicemen are guilty of something, but this case is not nearly as ironclad as presented by the Times, especially concerning the American servicemen, rather than the Afghan paramilitaries. You, like the Times, are:
1. Assuming that everything said by one side, even where there is no other evidence, is true, and everything said in opposition is false. That reflects bias.
2. Treating the Afghans' claims as gospel, notwithstanding the abundant reports by war correspondents, such as the Times' most experienced correspondent Dexter Filikins in his book The Forever War, that such claims are routinely fabricated out of greed or bias--read his account of witnessing an insurgent car bombing which was immediately followed by claims that it was an American airstrike by people standing in front of the smoldering remains of the car.
3. Judging people engaged in a war in a land where the Taliban, Afghan Warlords and Al Qaeda have routinely murdered children and mutilated innocents and no "rules of war and limits" have ever been applied (read this week's Times reminder of the murder of over 100 Pakistani school children by the Taliban) with the certainty, naivety-- and ignorance of the actual environment. The Times and many of its readers are far more likely to sympathize with a murderer born in a gang infested slum than soldiers sent to a land of murders of school girls; beheading DVDs sold on the street; and children coerced into suicide bombings.
1. Assuming that everything said by one side, even where there is no other evidence, is true, and everything said in opposition is false. That reflects bias.
2. Treating the Afghans' claims as gospel, notwithstanding the abundant reports by war correspondents, such as the Times' most experienced correspondent Dexter Filikins in his book The Forever War, that such claims are routinely fabricated out of greed or bias--read his account of witnessing an insurgent car bombing which was immediately followed by claims that it was an American airstrike by people standing in front of the smoldering remains of the car.
3. Judging people engaged in a war in a land where the Taliban, Afghan Warlords and Al Qaeda have routinely murdered children and mutilated innocents and no "rules of war and limits" have ever been applied (read this week's Times reminder of the murder of over 100 Pakistani school children by the Taliban) with the certainty, naivety-- and ignorance of the actual environment. The Times and many of its readers are far more likely to sympathize with a murderer born in a gang infested slum than soldiers sent to a land of murders of school girls; beheading DVDs sold on the street; and children coerced into suicide bombings.
1
The problem with designating military groups as "elite" is that members of these groups begin to think that they are elite, and, hence, untouchable.
Here we have the end result of poor strategic decisions in Washington, stretching from the very beginning of this sorry war. Poor decisions at the strategic level mean even worse decisions at the tactical level. Posting units that have completely different tactical intent and training from their assignment is asking for trouble. The rot starts above the unit, however. Who cut the orders for this unit to be in Kalach? The answer is, most likely, someone who was as bored with the assignment as the SEALs were in carrying it out.
Think about it. This is a unit that is trained, simply, to kill, or at best, abduct. In other words, the unit has been trained to view "others" as devalued targets, not too far removed from tin cans used as target practice. Living in this atmosphere of death on order, now the unit has to operate within a society of building trust.
Certainly, the actions of the unit in this case were despicable. The captain who blew off the allegations has lost his moral bearings. But, again, who cut the orders? Who placed these men in this situation? Those decision-makers need to be exposed as the incompetents they are. Does Kalach go up on the trophy wall next to My Lai?
Here we have the end result of poor strategic decisions in Washington, stretching from the very beginning of this sorry war. Poor decisions at the strategic level mean even worse decisions at the tactical level. Posting units that have completely different tactical intent and training from their assignment is asking for trouble. The rot starts above the unit, however. Who cut the orders for this unit to be in Kalach? The answer is, most likely, someone who was as bored with the assignment as the SEALs were in carrying it out.
Think about it. This is a unit that is trained, simply, to kill, or at best, abduct. In other words, the unit has been trained to view "others" as devalued targets, not too far removed from tin cans used as target practice. Living in this atmosphere of death on order, now the unit has to operate within a society of building trust.
Certainly, the actions of the unit in this case were despicable. The captain who blew off the allegations has lost his moral bearings. But, again, who cut the orders? Who placed these men in this situation? Those decision-makers need to be exposed as the incompetents they are. Does Kalach go up on the trophy wall next to My Lai?
14
There is a much larger issue here. It has to do with what happens when a liberal modern culture goes to war with another culture without modern, liberal human values.
The modern culture will be drawn into behavior associated with the barbaric culture. This is inevitable.
Maybe we shouldn't go to these wars.
The modern culture will be drawn into behavior associated with the barbaric culture. This is inevitable.
Maybe we shouldn't go to these wars.
10
The top Navy brass should be court-martialed for participating by allowing the cover up of the Seals' savage behavior. This does incalculable damage to our national reputation and a great recruiting tool for the terrorists. What incompetence of the top brass!
16
Look at comments on Tuesday’s article about Bowe Bergdahl’s court martial. Hundreds and hundreds of folks crying out for his blood. And then these guys get off with a captain’s mast and less than a slap on the wrist. I've never really understood the concept of blind justice, or whether it even exists. This seems to confirm my fears.
10
So, we automatically turn the worm and eat our own? In this nearly 15-year-long "war" the enemy has repeatedly and gravely breached the Law of Armed Conflict and we have prosecuted NONE of them. Instead, military lawyers, often incompetent in the basic art of war, play armchair quarterback and do things that our Supreme Court says they must not: judge the actions of other in the clear vision of 20/20 hindsight over matters that are tense, uncertain and quickly evolving. The Commander with UCMJ authority reviewed the matter and found the evidence lacking. So, now five years later, we are to believe a disgruntled Army medic and Afghan tribesmen notorious for seeking solatia payments? I think not. BZ to the SEALs and may God Bless our young warriors and save them from Marplots and incompetent lawyers.
29
@David,
You realize that your comment is most likely way to based on the reality of the world we live for the majority of the commenters to comprehend. While we here in what some people would consider a "civilized" will turn on our own the people who keep this lunacy going are laughing. Most likely the supposedly "civilized" masses will say, "see Jeremy Scahill was right!"
You realize that your comment is most likely way to based on the reality of the world we live for the majority of the commenters to comprehend. While we here in what some people would consider a "civilized" will turn on our own the people who keep this lunacy going are laughing. Most likely the supposedly "civilized" masses will say, "see Jeremy Scahill was right!"
I, for one, believe the US Army medic. I also believe the SEAL commander who recommended that the alleged perps be drummed out of the SEALs.
3
Then don't be surprised when we're hated around the world. I thought we expected more of our soldiers than we'd expect of terrorists and thugs.
3
This shows an inexcusable lack of respect on the part of the Seals not only for the Afghan human beings, but also for Officers in the United States Army.
14
Well, since the SEALs are US Navy, you owe the officers of the US Army an apology.
3
So who's the evil empire NOW?
19
The Seals needn't worry, for if Trump or any of the rest of them get in shortly, they'll get their Carte Blanche to do anything they want. Patience, boys.
12
Exactly.
I'm not able yet to write about what I've just read. At this point words fail me, but I just want to thank the fine journalists who researched and wrote this story, and the New York Times for publishing it. How many more incidents like this have gone unnoticed, how many brutalities have gone unpublicized and unpunished?
43
@Trakker,
All wars are dirty with blurred lines of sanity and insanity, it's the reality of the world we live in. I know that will be hard to understand, but it's a fact that has not changed and will not change as long our species inhabits this planet.
All wars are dirty with blurred lines of sanity and insanity, it's the reality of the world we live in. I know that will be hard to understand, but it's a fact that has not changed and will not change as long our species inhabits this planet.
i was struck by an early point in the story about how some abuse was pecipitated by the death of a comrade. I can see how soldiers highly trained to kill might rely on aggression toward the captive enemy as a way to cope with the loss of a fellow soldier. I wonder if the military hires therapists/psychiatrists to assist in war situations like this? It is common for first responders in the US to have therapists made available to them after they witness or assist with traumatic situations. It might be better to offer this kind of support and reduce wartime abuse. Maybe it would help reduce the number of veterans returning with PTSD also.
3
Good insight to these types of incidents. In no way should any of us diminish the impact of this aggressive assault on others, by our military, regardless of the retaliative training they may have had. This may be a post-trauma reaction, but these SEALs are trained to not react irresponsibly; and as said in RBF's Comment, therapists need to be called upon when coping is needed following loss of comrades. In any case, we are clearly undermining our efforts as soon as we broadly attack and abuse anyone held captive.
We are doomed. The entire world is crumbling around us. We have no moral compass and it appears we have already become desensitized.
18
@Kareena,
Probably a good thing we weren't around during WWII. If ever the entire world was crumbling into the depths of madness that would have been the pinnacle. As for moral compass, you are correct, but I wouldn't blame it on the Seal's! The bulk of the free world has also lost its backbone, and that may be one of the problems.
Probably a good thing we weren't around during WWII. If ever the entire world was crumbling into the depths of madness that would have been the pinnacle. As for moral compass, you are correct, but I wouldn't blame it on the Seal's! The bulk of the free world has also lost its backbone, and that may be one of the problems.
I noticed we are killing each other quite lot. According to The Times a lot of people noticed, and they feel bad about it.
2
I would like to thank the NY Times for once again commiserating with and comforting the enemy. It must really pain you to know that SEAL Team 6 killed your hero, Osama Bin Laden.
2
SEAL Team 6 is a unit with changes in active personnel over the years. I doubt if those involved in killing OBL are still in the unit--and I want to believe that they would not have acted as did the SEALS in this current case if they had been assigned to work with civilian populations.
3
Er, yes, correct, Mr. bin Laden was brutally murdered, along with family members in their own home by a group of USA citizens. The home by the way is in Pakistan, not the USA. The group of USA citizens illegally entered a foreign country without the knowledge, nor obviously the consent of that country, then proceeded to murder several residents of that country.
Furthermore, I believe that it was the extreme rightist Ronald Reagan Administration that provide arms and financial support to Mr. bin Laden, among many others to murder soviet soldiers deployed in Afghanistan at the request of the then-Afghani government.
One could go on and on, but presumably Mr cjhsa, whoever is the person behind the moniker and ludicrous icon, appears to approve of arbitrary state-sponsored murder and the more the merrier for him
Furthermore, I believe that it was the extreme rightist Ronald Reagan Administration that provide arms and financial support to Mr. bin Laden, among many others to murder soviet soldiers deployed in Afghanistan at the request of the then-Afghani government.
One could go on and on, but presumably Mr cjhsa, whoever is the person behind the moniker and ludicrous icon, appears to approve of arbitrary state-sponsored murder and the more the merrier for him
2
If Ash Carter is a true leader he will make sure these "men" and their enablers will be brought to justice, he will put a stop to the political meddling in the Bergdahl case by McCain and Trump and their "man" Gen. Abrams, and he will explain how he could have been so stupid, in light of Hillary Clinton's email scandal, to use his personal email to conduct DOD business. And if he can't/doesn't/won't do these things, President Obama needs to find someone who is willing to lead the Defense Department, not be cowed by it.
8
Obama will not allow ANY member of the armed forces to be held to account for atrocities. He shut down every investigation and provided full immunity for the CIA torturers.
4
It is ironic at best that Bode Bergdahl, who spent five years as a prisoner of the Taliban, faces a court martial, thanks to General Abrams' overruling the recommendations of investigators, while the SEAL command decided to dismiss the grievous charges against Team 2 members, despite the recommendation of a Navy lawyer. Indeed, three of them have been promoted even though their commander in Afghanistan recommended they be forced out of the SEALs. There's something seriously wrong with this picture.
5
Incidents like this are what help create terrorists. The Seals need to pay for their wrongdoing. I'm glad their fellow military had morals and reported them.
27
I spent a year near Ghazni and from what I hear most of those FOBs are closed and the old Taliban rule has taken over. The absurdity is that we are sending our best men to Afghanistan while hundreds of thousands of their young men of fighting age are headed to Germany to hit on the ladies on the Reeperbahn. The average rural Afghan likes the Taliban and their misogyny just fine. That is the way the world should be in their eyes. Our politicians don't understand that part of the world and they won't listen to those who do.
48
This behavior by US military serves one overriding purpose:
It engenders hatred against America which is the excuse used by the Military Industrial Political Complex for perpetual war.
Like so much of what goes on in the US in 21st century America, everything is twisted in order to make money for someone somewhere.
I'm really glad I'm old. At least I got to live through what America used to be and be proud to be a citizen.
It engenders hatred against America which is the excuse used by the Military Industrial Political Complex for perpetual war.
Like so much of what goes on in the US in 21st century America, everything is twisted in order to make money for someone somewhere.
I'm really glad I'm old. At least I got to live through what America used to be and be proud to be a citizen.
8
"This behavior by US military serves one overriding purpose:
It engenders hatred against America which is the excuse used by the Military Industrial Political Complex for perpetual war."
Perfectly stated.
It engenders hatred against America which is the excuse used by the Military Industrial Political Complex for perpetual war."
Perfectly stated.
4
"troubling behavior"
Well, yes, you might say that. The "special" units in Germany were allowed to do anything with impunity. So were the "death squads" in Argentina and, well, that's how it is in fascist dictatorships. They're called the best and the bravest and those who use them for the dirtiest of dirty work give them honors.
As we formed our special units, as we formed our private mercenaries' I kept wondering why regular soldiers weren't enough. Was it expected from the beginning that people like Eric Prince's forces, beside getting rich, were being prepared for "exceptional" duties once they came home, sort of an Honor Guard, elite like the SS were or the Einsatzgruppen.
True, they were a small percentage of our armed forces, but jihadists are a small percent of the official islamic soldiers who serve their honest Islamic countries around the world. It's not the men, the most sturdy of those who serve, it's their minds, formed by, controlled by, and absolutely obedient to the politicians and Department Heads like the DOD, CIA, NSA, etc. who own them. I know one of the secret Seals. He simply slathers to get in there and Kill "Arabs" (his words.) He has been turned into a "true believer" assassin.
And those who rule today are not unlike those we chose yesterday: http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.657381 which confirms Robert Parry.
Look at the big picture rather than the easily obfuscatable shuffle of details. We have been quietly led down the garden path.
Well, yes, you might say that. The "special" units in Germany were allowed to do anything with impunity. So were the "death squads" in Argentina and, well, that's how it is in fascist dictatorships. They're called the best and the bravest and those who use them for the dirtiest of dirty work give them honors.
As we formed our special units, as we formed our private mercenaries' I kept wondering why regular soldiers weren't enough. Was it expected from the beginning that people like Eric Prince's forces, beside getting rich, were being prepared for "exceptional" duties once they came home, sort of an Honor Guard, elite like the SS were or the Einsatzgruppen.
True, they were a small percentage of our armed forces, but jihadists are a small percent of the official islamic soldiers who serve their honest Islamic countries around the world. It's not the men, the most sturdy of those who serve, it's their minds, formed by, controlled by, and absolutely obedient to the politicians and Department Heads like the DOD, CIA, NSA, etc. who own them. I know one of the secret Seals. He simply slathers to get in there and Kill "Arabs" (his words.) He has been turned into a "true believer" assassin.
And those who rule today are not unlike those we chose yesterday: http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.657381 which confirms Robert Parry.
Look at the big picture rather than the easily obfuscatable shuffle of details. We have been quietly led down the garden path.
8
I guess these American servicemen were radicalized by the bigotry and inflammatory comments of the Taliban.
I am so glad the Times has taken upon itself to furnish a moral guide to war.
3
Rule #1 for ANY guide to war: Stop shooting yourself in the foot.
Rule #2: Not helpful to turn all the neutrals or potential allies into your enemies.
OTOH, Trump's call to block any and all Muslims from entering the country makes a sad bit of sense from some of the comments excusing this kind of counterproductive behavior. Looks like in a short period of time the cowboys will manage to turn most of the planet into enemies.
Rule #2: Not helpful to turn all the neutrals or potential allies into your enemies.
OTOH, Trump's call to block any and all Muslims from entering the country makes a sad bit of sense from some of the comments excusing this kind of counterproductive behavior. Looks like in a short period of time the cowboys will manage to turn most of the planet into enemies.
1
What has happened to the New York Times? Is it now the left-wing equivalent of Fox News? The Times was once the preeminent paper in the world. Now it exists to throw red meat to the far Left, reporting only the half of the story that suits it purposes.
4
As often true, one of our greatest strengths is also one of our greatest weaknesses. Our ability to quickly forget and forgive is not shared by much of the world. We forgive and forget mostly within a generation. But an Ibo of Nigeria or a Pushtun of Afghanistan may recite her geneology back for 200 generations (the late Victoria I. Mojekwu, Ed.D) or wrongs done (Afghanistan or Bosnia or Serbia or much of South America).
Relevance: torture or rape a suspect for a bombing and perhaps save 50-200 lives but have a family and a village hate America and thirst for revenge for 500-1000 or more years, costing many times 50-200 lives.
Within the special ops communities, reserve and nation guard units, having more of a civilian mentality, have a rep for better working with natives. (If they are not prison guards in civilian life.)
Relevance: torture or rape a suspect for a bombing and perhaps save 50-200 lives but have a family and a village hate America and thirst for revenge for 500-1000 or more years, costing many times 50-200 lives.
Within the special ops communities, reserve and nation guard units, having more of a civilian mentality, have a rep for better working with natives. (If they are not prison guards in civilian life.)
5
We continue to compound horrible decisions made by our leaders. The military is out of control.
10
Something better will one day come to the long-suffering people of Afghanistan, but not before American forces are crushed.
3
Curious to know if this incident lead to any US soldier deaths in the form of Taliban retribution and targeting as a result of the detainee abuse and deaths? It's utterly appalling that the Navy Brass allowed and participated in sweeping this abuse and detainee murder under the rug and the actions of Cpt. Smith seems to encourage this same abusive behavior among the ranks as acceptable rather than address it and protect the integrity of the Teams.
11
This isn't the SEALS fault. It's the leadership. The idea that we'll mend fences and win hearts and minds using these tactics is ludicrous. That's a leadership decision. Why are we continually making the same mistakes?
6
Go Team 6.
2
SEALs are sociopathic thugs and I wouldn't have it any other way. It is an absolute job requirement. And, unfortunately, every nation needs brutal, sociopathic agents and teams for black ops, wetwork, etc. The issue is oversight. Sociopathic thugs need to be kept on a tight enough leash. We must not forget what they are.
7
And what do we do with them when they come home?
4
Not to quibble over small details, but a personality disorder isn't an asset for a military man. Sadists are generally cowards.
6
totally agree about sadists but I am really talking about stone cold killers who aren't fettered by the usual inhibitions that people have. I still maintain that you can't do what is required if you spend too much time empathizing and walking in the target's shoes. remember these guys kidnap and kill, often outside the law and outside of conventional warfare. the targets might not even be military. in civilized society we call it a "personality disorder" and if they were working for the mob or a cartel, their actions would be labeled criminal. on a black ops team it's normal, expected and necessary.
The fact that these deranged, cold-blooded murderers are held up as some kind of American heroes only tells you just how deeply sick this country has become.
End the military NOW.
End the military NOW.
10
Why not call this behavior what is is -- terrorism.
38
In many disturbing ways, we have the potential to become just like, and no better than those we are fighting. In some ways, we already have. Maybe, we as people and this nation called the United States of American is approaching irrelevancy. Let's hope not. We can do better than this.
5
Indeed, we have lowered ourselves to the levels of our enemy. Ideally, we sought to raise that bar by working within the ranks of the villagers, cooperatively. We were to be joined in the movement to obliterate terror against these Afghan villagers, and instead sabotaged that role -- now diminishing any trust which was vital to our presence there. What now? Retrace our steps? We are losing ground every day - and no wonder the battleground has arrived on our doorstep.
2
Excellent coverage New York Times. Thank you
57
This reporting highlights two serious failings that have persisted in the use of US special forces since 9-11. First, there is the love affair that the DoD brass and Bush and Obama have had with using SEALs - who were originally underwater demolition frogmen - as ground infantry in counterinsurgency operations. It is a tragic mismatch. SEALs - as graphically shown in the movie American Sniper - are not trained for the manifold and nuanced demands of unconventional warfare. Instead, they are an off/on switch - kill or don't kill - a blunt instrument that can wreak havoc in the wrong ways when unleashed. Then there is the complete lack of transparency and accountability when it comes to disciplining special operators. There is no sound reason for such secrecy. It is a stretch to claim that being open about disciplining a special operator who smashed a detainee's skull in will somehow compromise force security and planning. And that has to change.
53
Reading this piece, after just finishing Guantanamo Diary, provides a dark picture of what countries are willing to do, even liberal democracies, to defeat perceived or real enemies. I am not naive enough to believe that in a war environment, the moral and ethical bar is lowered. Having said that, I expect our leaders, in all branches of government, to establish the boundaries between pursuing the goals of freedom and what is clearly criminal behavior. When those boundaries disappear, as they have at Guantanamo Bay, and now it appears in continuing wars in the Middle East, not only do our soldiers and country lose their humanity, but, the perception of those we claim to be freeing, look upon us, not as liberators, but just another form of ISIS. I would add, each Republican candidate sent the clear message, that if they are president there will be NO boundaries in the war against terrorism.
33
All good points. And meanwhile, Trump advocates killing the family members of terrorists and Carson smiles creepily as he equates brain surgery on children to bombing them "for their own good." We live in disturbing times when these two comments barely rippled the waters of national media.
13
What's amazing to me is that, while everything you said is spot on, we should have all known this in 2002 when we first started this expeditionary folly.
3
Trying to kill a kitten, what sociopaths do we have over there? All our "military" personnel should be taken out of there immediately and many dumped out of the service with dishonorable discharges.
25
Yes, of course - brilliant idea! Let's punish huge sections of our military because of the actions of a few. Jesus...
1
America's most potent weapons in the battle to defeat Islamic terrorists are our moral standards and the rule of law. It only takes a few incidents like this to completely destroy our credibility in the minds of Afghans, Iraqis, and others. As President Clinton wisely observed, "The power of our example is much more important than the example of our power."
277
Stop supporting the Saudis. Put our money where out mouth is.
10
"America's most potent weapons in the battle to defeat Islamic terrorists are our moral standards and the rule of law."
If that's the case, we are in BIG trouble.
If that's the case, we are in BIG trouble.
5
Ken L - "It only takes a few incidents like this to completely destroy our credibility in the minds of Afghans, Iraqis, and others."
I wonder how, in the minds of Afghans, Iraqis and others, they feel about the child rapes, beheadings, burning alive of prisoners etc. done in god's name by ISIL and the Taliban?
I wonder how, in the minds of Afghans, Iraqis and others, they feel about the child rapes, beheadings, burning alive of prisoners etc. done in god's name by ISIL and the Taliban?
1
I remember the world-wide outpouring of solidarity and support for the United
States of America in the aftermath of the destruction of the World Trade Center.
From countries large and small, including much of the Middle East, messages of caring and even love were showered on our country.
People around the globe proclaimed, "I am American," and held candlelight vigil to show they were with us in our shock and grief.
It was a moment of unparalleled opportunity to chart a new course and perhaps even make friends of old enemies.
Instead the President, a callow man advised by men who had never been to war, some of whom had financial ties to the military-industrial complex, chose to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
A decade and a half later, hundreds of thousands are dead and more than a million wounded. Tens of millions are refugees. Those who hate America because of the suffering and losses they've endured through our wars are too numerous to count. Trillions of dollars have been, in effect, wasted.
Inevitably, young Americans brutalized by war do terrible things to other human beings, as this tragic story shows.
And still the leaders of the U.S. continue to believe that MORE war, more bombing and more violence will solve the problem and make America safer.
When will they ever learn? Apparently not in time to save civilization as we know it.
There is no end in sight.
Heaven help all the children of the world. We are leaving them a horrendous legacy.
States of America in the aftermath of the destruction of the World Trade Center.
From countries large and small, including much of the Middle East, messages of caring and even love were showered on our country.
People around the globe proclaimed, "I am American," and held candlelight vigil to show they were with us in our shock and grief.
It was a moment of unparalleled opportunity to chart a new course and perhaps even make friends of old enemies.
Instead the President, a callow man advised by men who had never been to war, some of whom had financial ties to the military-industrial complex, chose to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
A decade and a half later, hundreds of thousands are dead and more than a million wounded. Tens of millions are refugees. Those who hate America because of the suffering and losses they've endured through our wars are too numerous to count. Trillions of dollars have been, in effect, wasted.
Inevitably, young Americans brutalized by war do terrible things to other human beings, as this tragic story shows.
And still the leaders of the U.S. continue to believe that MORE war, more bombing and more violence will solve the problem and make America safer.
When will they ever learn? Apparently not in time to save civilization as we know it.
There is no end in sight.
Heaven help all the children of the world. We are leaving them a horrendous legacy.
158
The SEALs' behavior is NOT inevitable.
2
First, cut the Navy's annual budget by $100 million. The punishment of underlings does not capture the attention of Navy commanders, who show no interest in what their agents are doing on the ground. In an era where people carry smartphones that can send live video around the world, the detachment of Pentagon brass is willful.
Second, write up the incident as accurately as possible, but with identities reversed. Tell the story as though two Navy Seals were captured, interrogated and abused by Afghanis, with one of the Seals dying after suffering head wounds. Then, ask other anonymous Seal members to read this (reversed) account, and ask their opinions on how the wrong-doers should be punished. Finally, provide that recommendation to a Navy court marshal judge, as a guideline for fixing punishment against those Seals who participated in the abuse and murder of Afghani citizens.
Second, write up the incident as accurately as possible, but with identities reversed. Tell the story as though two Navy Seals were captured, interrogated and abused by Afghanis, with one of the Seals dying after suffering head wounds. Then, ask other anonymous Seal members to read this (reversed) account, and ask their opinions on how the wrong-doers should be punished. Finally, provide that recommendation to a Navy court marshal judge, as a guideline for fixing punishment against those Seals who participated in the abuse and murder of Afghani citizens.
49
This article points out why the U.S. soldiers cannot defeat insurgents in other nations: brutal treatment by Americans and the puppets they rely upon alienates citizens of invaded countries. The U.S. has failed in Korea, Lebanon, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan to name just a few of the failures of intervention. The U.S. government needs to withdraw from all 135 or so nations where we now have troops, and cut the bloated military's budget of 612 billion to the bone. it is simply absurd to continue spending money on impossible attempts to control other nations. The age of Empire is over, and the U.S. government is always behind the times. History, and reality, are not on our side.
52
This is so typical of today's military. They are never wrong. It is always some one else that is at fault. How could anyone dare to question these "heroes"?
No one is held accountable; be it sex crimes, to misidentified targets. The military needs to be reminded that they are not above the law, no matter how great and glorious they think they are.
No one is held accountable; be it sex crimes, to misidentified targets. The military needs to be reminded that they are not above the law, no matter how great and glorious they think they are.
35
We are doing everything wrong in the Middle East. We are sending soldiers with highly specialized training in how to seek, destroy, and kill in the harshest conditions. And ask them to do community service work. Wrong tool for the wrong job. We are using local militia who have only one concern. Keeping their tribe in power and taking what they can get from the local population. In Chicago we call those gangs. All of this because our politicians won't fully commit to or uncommit from this war. Send troops in numbers with overwhelming force to keep order and kill Taliban when possible. Send trained workers to setup schools, hospitals, and government. Implement our laws and our rule cherry picking only what is good in Afghan culture to include and outlawing the rest. if all we intend on doing their is "have a presence" then we need to leave.
20
This atrocity is but one of the dozens, that see the light of day.
Our armies, in many instances, are like the marauding hordes of old, who laid waste to nations, pillaging, maiming, murdering, and raping, as they victoriously raced to meet out the same, on the next community of innocents.
How is it possible for us to have fallen so far, so fast ?
People all over the world look at us these days as a nation of crazies, content to do nothing, even within our own borders, as mass killings occur and increase, as militarized local police maim and kill minorities with absolute impunity, while our so called leaders cover up their own complicity.
And as we head toward the next Presidential election, the canditates, most of them, appear to be borderline psychopaths, fomenting hate and division.
If this continues we will soon be indistinguishable from some of the dictatorships we so ardently support, in return for access to their oil wealth.
I'm approaching 70 years of age, and unfortunately I see little reason to presume we will be able to avoid falling into the abyss.
Our armies, in many instances, are like the marauding hordes of old, who laid waste to nations, pillaging, maiming, murdering, and raping, as they victoriously raced to meet out the same, on the next community of innocents.
How is it possible for us to have fallen so far, so fast ?
People all over the world look at us these days as a nation of crazies, content to do nothing, even within our own borders, as mass killings occur and increase, as militarized local police maim and kill minorities with absolute impunity, while our so called leaders cover up their own complicity.
And as we head toward the next Presidential election, the canditates, most of them, appear to be borderline psychopaths, fomenting hate and division.
If this continues we will soon be indistinguishable from some of the dictatorships we so ardently support, in return for access to their oil wealth.
I'm approaching 70 years of age, and unfortunately I see little reason to presume we will be able to avoid falling into the abyss.
76
"How is it possible for us to have fallen so far, so fast ?"
This country was founded on the extermination of indigenous people, built with forced labor dragged from Africa; the only country ever to use nuclear weapons against civilian population centers (twice in 72 hours) before waging a genocidal war in Indochina that rivalled the Nazis for sheer cruelty and depravity.
There never was a bright and shining America. The whole concept is just wishful thinking.
This country was founded on the extermination of indigenous people, built with forced labor dragged from Africa; the only country ever to use nuclear weapons against civilian population centers (twice in 72 hours) before waging a genocidal war in Indochina that rivalled the Nazis for sheer cruelty and depravity.
There never was a bright and shining America. The whole concept is just wishful thinking.
8
so those murderous bozos failed in their mission to make friends with the afghans, killed at least one of them, ostensibly caused the base to close up and move, and got promoted? So much for a professional military.
35
A group of people is trained relentlessly to fight and kill. Many are unable to pass the training. A very small group, the most efficient and lethal killers are selected into the Special Forces. These are fierce warriors, trained to the point where their entire being, their psyche, their ethos is wrapped entirely around fighting and killing. This is what they do.
Then they are asked to take it easy, sit down and not use any of their skills. No, don't kill, teach. Teach others some of the techniques you've learned, they're told.
Are you surprised that they were unable to do it? Training, communicating, collaborating, imprisoning, interrogating, even providing security, is not the same as fighting. It takes a different kind of skill and attitude, a different kind of person.
You can teach someone something only if yourself no longer have a need for what you are teaching. A active warrior cannot teach another to fight. Only one who longer feels the need to fight can teach another to fight.
Highly trained warriors must be sent to fight and do nothing else. There are many others more suited to performing the kinds of activities the SEALs were asked to take on. Stop putting people in positions that compromise their sense of being and balance will automatically be achieved.
Then they are asked to take it easy, sit down and not use any of their skills. No, don't kill, teach. Teach others some of the techniques you've learned, they're told.
Are you surprised that they were unable to do it? Training, communicating, collaborating, imprisoning, interrogating, even providing security, is not the same as fighting. It takes a different kind of skill and attitude, a different kind of person.
You can teach someone something only if yourself no longer have a need for what you are teaching. A active warrior cannot teach another to fight. Only one who longer feels the need to fight can teach another to fight.
Highly trained warriors must be sent to fight and do nothing else. There are many others more suited to performing the kinds of activities the SEALs were asked to take on. Stop putting people in positions that compromise their sense of being and balance will automatically be achieved.
48
Seriously, no. Humans are not hardwired like jaguars and snakes, who only know killing prey. We are not hardwired like rabbits and deer, to graze and hide and flee. We are human beings -- the most adaptable and ingenious animals on earth.
And if what you were saying were true we would never have, for example, ordinary people who perform heroic acts out of the blue, nor military fighters who snuggle and comfort their children.
You are clearly correct that the training this group of SEALS had was not compatible with the mission that they were on. But that does not give them a free pass to harass, torture, and kill.
And if what you were saying were true we would never have, for example, ordinary people who perform heroic acts out of the blue, nor military fighters who snuggle and comfort their children.
You are clearly correct that the training this group of SEALS had was not compatible with the mission that they were on. But that does not give them a free pass to harass, torture, and kill.
11
Perfectly said. Thank you.
Cow wrote: "A active warrior cannot teach another to fight. Only one who longer feels the need to fight can teach another to fight."
So try this: "An active mathematician cannot teach another to do math. Only one who no longer feels the need for math can teach another to do math."
i.e. doesn't make sense
So try this: "An active mathematician cannot teach another to do math. Only one who no longer feels the need for math can teach another to do math."
i.e. doesn't make sense
2
It's a complex world. It's hard for simple folk to imagine that supposed heroes (Seal Team 6) do not always act heroicly, just as it's hard to give any leeway to supposed villains (Bergdahl). Yet all soldiers were boys once, and only men now.
5
The Navy, negligent as it was here, did far more to bring torturers to justice than did their commander in chief. By saying he'd "turn the page" and "look forward not back," President Obama gave a green light to this behavior. And let's not forget to give President Bush credit for making torture a standard component of US foreign policy. Criminals -- and I don't mean the term metaphorically -- all.
6
When your grandfather and great grandfather did this to the Germans, the Japanese and the Italians, we welcomed them home as heroes.
2
Thank you.
Kind of sad that they were no better than the Germans or the Japanese, that they were fighting.
1
Our grandfathers and great grandfathers were sent to fight the Germans, the Japanese and the Italians--the aggressors--in WWI and II. After we--the aggressors--destroyed Afghanistan, the SEALS in this instance were sent to "train" the locals, not to kill or torture them. Waaay big difference.
4
As the Times and it's readers pointed out repeatedly during the Bush-Cheney presidency respect for human dignity starts at the top, this must then, be a direct result of the moral rot therein. Or could it just be the cruelty of a few among thousands. I guess it depends on your level of hypocrisy.
4
The lie being told to Americans is that our military is being used to defend “freedom around the world; to protect innocents from brutal tyrants.” The truth is that our military is directed by our political leaders to enforce our policies around the globe. These kind of acts are just the tip of the iceberg. It is not a “few loose-cannons,” it is systemic and something has to change and it is American foreign policies toward the rest of the world. Today, the rest of the world sees us as the tyrants. And much of the world has good reason. But, the American public just continues to swallow the lies we are told. I grieve for my country and I am ashamed of what we have become.
38
Our military is supposed to be held at higher standards than the enemy, otherwise what would the difference between us, and the enemy they (we) face, aside from the language and the color of the uniform? Worse of all is the cowardly attitude of higher ups covering up occasional crimes committed by a small group of bad apples or is it business as usual? We The People need to know.
12
These Seals and their officers have soiled our flag and shamed us all.
26
Similar to Vietnam and the Phoenix Project where the U.S. sent assassins and torturers to do their best to alienate Vietnamese citizens, the SEALS are sent to do the same. The SEALs have taken on a persona that most among their ranks now seem to believe. The men who allegedly did these things need to be prosecuted and their commanders replaced or retrained in what they are really all about.
21
The SEALs are hunter killer assassination teams and not fit for the role they were assigned when replacing the Green Berets who preceded them in the area. While there is a role for such men in today's world of guerrilla warfare, it should be a much more tightly controlled force than it appears to be from this article.
There is no question in my mind that the Army personnel were accurate in their charges and that the SEAL NCOs did try to intimidate them into silence. Since My Lai, the Army appears to have done an excellent job of instilling as much awareness as possible as to the consequences of illegal killings in the aftermath of combat.
Just to be clear to those who have never been in combat, you cannot turn on and off your emotions and killing instincts while under fire. You simply hope you won't disgrace yourself through fear and let your buddies down. Adrenalin dominates you.
After combat is a different story and that's where leadership comes in. In this case, the SEALs leadership failed.
The failure of the SEAL leadership puts a big moose on the table. Why do we need these types of special forces in the Navy of all places? Unlike the Army or Marines, Naval officers have zero understanding of small unit ground combat. Naval command appears to be incompetent to lead or discipline the SEALs.
Our military effectiveness does not need a special ops capability for each of the major services. This is a vanity of the branches more than a military necessity.
There is no question in my mind that the Army personnel were accurate in their charges and that the SEAL NCOs did try to intimidate them into silence. Since My Lai, the Army appears to have done an excellent job of instilling as much awareness as possible as to the consequences of illegal killings in the aftermath of combat.
Just to be clear to those who have never been in combat, you cannot turn on and off your emotions and killing instincts while under fire. You simply hope you won't disgrace yourself through fear and let your buddies down. Adrenalin dominates you.
After combat is a different story and that's where leadership comes in. In this case, the SEALs leadership failed.
The failure of the SEAL leadership puts a big moose on the table. Why do we need these types of special forces in the Navy of all places? Unlike the Army or Marines, Naval officers have zero understanding of small unit ground combat. Naval command appears to be incompetent to lead or discipline the SEALs.
Our military effectiveness does not need a special ops capability for each of the major services. This is a vanity of the branches more than a military necessity.
17
Mr. TDurk,
I do not differ with you concerning the need for this SEAL unit's need of discipline. I greatly differ with you regarding you statement: "Our military effectiveness does not need a special ops capability for each of the major services".
Perhaps you are not old enough to remember our tragedy (United States military) at Desert One in Iran 1980. Our attempt to rescue American hostages (Operation Eagle Claw) held in Iran demonstrated in the most deadliest way imaginable for the U.S. military and American public at large, the need for a joint special operations capability.
I do not differ with you concerning the need for this SEAL unit's need of discipline. I greatly differ with you regarding you statement: "Our military effectiveness does not need a special ops capability for each of the major services".
Perhaps you are not old enough to remember our tragedy (United States military) at Desert One in Iran 1980. Our attempt to rescue American hostages (Operation Eagle Claw) held in Iran demonstrated in the most deadliest way imaginable for the U.S. military and American public at large, the need for a joint special operations capability.
"Abuse of detainees is among the most serious offenses an American service member can commit."
Preserving access to JAGs by regurgitating pious cant is a disservice to history.
Preserving access to JAGs by regurgitating pious cant is a disservice to history.
3
Seal Team 6 - the elite of our elite killers.
4 seals from team 6 (lower case purposeful to show contempt they hold for their unit) torture, kill, and lie in front of US military and other witnesses and they're judged innocent and are promoted!
Meanwhile, Seal Team 6 (upper case for respect I show for the real unit) hero/member who killed Osama Bin Laden is out of the military, can't get a job because what he did is secret, has no benefits, pension or health insurance for him and family.
Yup, America is really really exceptional alright.
4 seals from team 6 (lower case purposeful to show contempt they hold for their unit) torture, kill, and lie in front of US military and other witnesses and they're judged innocent and are promoted!
Meanwhile, Seal Team 6 (upper case for respect I show for the real unit) hero/member who killed Osama Bin Laden is out of the military, can't get a job because what he did is secret, has no benefits, pension or health insurance for him and family.
Yup, America is really really exceptional alright.
8
With do respect to the members of SEAL Team 6, I take exception to you belief that a special ops member, doing his job as expected, should get rewarded beyond what all other special ops member get. I will simply refer you to what Army Special Forces- SF/SOG did in Vietnam. If you have not, please read Maj. (Ret) John Plaster's award-winning book, SOG: The Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam.
It took decades after Vietnam for Maj. Plaster and other members of SOG to wright and talk publicly (their missions were classified above Top Secret) about what they did, who died and who were captured. SF veterans of Vietnam are known as The Quiet Professionals. We volunteered, we served, and some of us returned back home to our families. You can't ask for anything more than that.
It took decades after Vietnam for Maj. Plaster and other members of SOG to wright and talk publicly (their missions were classified above Top Secret) about what they did, who died and who were captured. SF veterans of Vietnam are known as The Quiet Professionals. We volunteered, we served, and some of us returned back home to our families. You can't ask for anything more than that.
The NYT should be ashamed of its self-serving reporting in which the whistle-blowers are clearly identified, but the perpetrators of horrendous crimes and misdeeds are left carefully screened from view. If the editors believe the reporting, then they should have the courage to disclose the names of the accused SEALS. Otherwise, the article is editorial voyeurism.
12
Thomas should be ashamed of his inability to closely read an article.
"The three enlisted Team 2 members — David Swarts and Daniel D’Ambrosio, who were petty officers first class, and Xavier Silva, a petty officer second class — took the lead in interrogating the detainees, the soldiers told investigators. Their officer, a young lieutenant junior grade named Jason Webb, was mostly engaged elsewhere at the base, they said."
"The three enlisted Team 2 members — David Swarts and Daniel D’Ambrosio, who were petty officers first class, and Xavier Silva, a petty officer second class — took the lead in interrogating the detainees, the soldiers told investigators. Their officer, a young lieutenant junior grade named Jason Webb, was mostly engaged elsewhere at the base, they said."
3
I'm heartened by the good, decent American soldiers in this story. The vast majority of our service people no doubt.
Let their presence be a warning to rogues who destroy our credibility (as if it isn't low enough) and make us less safe by their criminal actions:
You are being watched.
You will be brought to justice like any other criminal.
Let their presence be a warning to rogues who destroy our credibility (as if it isn't low enough) and make us less safe by their criminal actions:
You are being watched.
You will be brought to justice like any other criminal.
8
um..the whole point is that they are NOT brought to justice. Further, many GIs have testified again and again that daily atrocities are the norm.
3
One wonders if captain Robert E. Smith were to receive similar treatment if captured; would our Naval officials offer any protest? "American Exceptionalism" at it's finest?
6
It's very easy to form strong opinions about what happens in an area of the world that is, largely, in the 14th century while sitting in a warm home, sipping Starbucks, and enjoying speedy wifi.
9
Like the chicken hawks in Congress you mean?
5
Know what's really scary? Guys like these SEALs come back from the war and become cops.
38
Thanks NYT. Excellent job of reporting.
"O say does that star spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the..."
(something or other.)
"O say does that star spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the..."
(something or other.)
4
It's frightening to think that but for the conscience of a depressingly small number of soldiers this might have gone unreported, yet one more cover-up. How many more such incidents have yet to be uncovered?
And who's bright idea was it that SEAL team members would be a good choice for training police officers in Afghan villages? I guess we shouldn't be terribly surprised, though, when you look at the weaponization and militarization of American police departments.
This story hasn't been up for long. Stayed tuned, I'm sure, for the venom from the right: How dare you run this story? You don't know what war is? The NYT, not the SEAL team members, are responsible for the anti-American sentiment. What the fuss about, it's only Afghan villagers?
Let me express my disgust in advance.
Thanks, NYT, for this report. Keep digging. There are undoubtedly more out there.
And who's bright idea was it that SEAL team members would be a good choice for training police officers in Afghan villages? I guess we shouldn't be terribly surprised, though, when you look at the weaponization and militarization of American police departments.
This story hasn't been up for long. Stayed tuned, I'm sure, for the venom from the right: How dare you run this story? You don't know what war is? The NYT, not the SEAL team members, are responsible for the anti-American sentiment. What the fuss about, it's only Afghan villagers?
Let me express my disgust in advance.
Thanks, NYT, for this report. Keep digging. There are undoubtedly more out there.
33
Are the politicians, carpet-bombing advocates and Times readers who celebrated the decision to court-martial Bowe Bergdahl going to urge prosecutions of these SEALs and their superiors?
166
I'm willing to bet that one reason some of the investigators did not want Bergdahl tried is that he was trying to get back to another base to expose this type of attitude among his fellow soldiers. Hopefully that will come out at his trial and some of this misbehavior can be stopped. But prosecuting Bergdahl for desertion and misbehavior before they enemy while letting the elites off is the height of hypocrisy.
Several years ago on a flight from Atlanta to Savannah I overheard two young men who were exmilitary discussing how much they missed the excitement of killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan and that they couldn't wait to get back to it! Scary what we have created.
Several years ago on a flight from Atlanta to Savannah I overheard two young men who were exmilitary discussing how much they missed the excitement of killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan and that they couldn't wait to get back to it! Scary what we have created.
5
jrd - NY
Yes, indeed. This "NYTimes reader" is going to be emailing & phoning her congresspersons.
Yes, indeed. This "NYTimes reader" is going to be emailing & phoning her congresspersons.
2
We can only hope. If it does happen, and that's a big if, the lower ranking SEALs will lose the most and their superiors, if even prosecuted will get the usual slap on the wrist. The military has a very hard time ever admitting that they are wrong. They've all been called heroes once to often.
4
Thank you for your service.
NOT!
NOT!
3
This story is a courageous piece of reporting, one worthy of a Pulitzer. At a time when political candidates talk about “carpet bombing” and the moral and religious high ground, and banning Muslims from the United States, it’s important to know that no one country can claim moral superiority. If we send armed men into combat to fight for “right, justice and freedom” I’m afraid we are delusional, as a people and a nation. War is, in all its forms, a state of Hobbesian nature. It is brutish, grim and unfortunately long. To believe that we are fighting for “freedom and democracy” and yet we show ourselves to be equally brutish, is, I’m afraid, reality. In the Illiad, Homer depicted the crazed warrior, one whose anger gets the better of him and, if he is trained properly, a true killing machine. Can we blame the soldiers? I don’t think we can; we can only look in the mirror and blame the creators – those who send them to do their bidding with a false banner. The President understands these things, I’m afraid, many of the candidates interested in taking his place, do not.
17
But the President is the Commander in Chief and he should have known about this. If not he'd better fire the navy secretary and court martial the top brass for hiding it from him. Let's see if he does.
2
• The SEAL command, though, cleared the Team 2 members of wrongdoing in a closed disciplinary process ..., disregarding a Navy lawyer’s recommendation that the troops face assault charges and choosing not to seek a court-martial. Two of the SEALs and their lieutenant have since been promoted, even though their commander in Afghanistan recommended that they be forced out of the elite SEAL teams.
Born on 11 August 1945, I'm still waiting for someone to be held accountable for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the largest number of people killed in the fastest time, 150,000 and 90'000 apiece. I turned 70 this year and will probably never get to see it: an apology, at the very least, from the United States to Japan for that atrocity.
See:
THE BOMB DIDN’T BEAT JAPAN… STALIN DID
FOREIGN POLICY MAGAZINE, 05/30/2013
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice." ~ ALBERT EINSTEIN
How about GEORGE W. BUSH, INC., accepting responsibility for the Paris massacres of 7 Jan. and 13 Nov. 2015 and apologize to the French and to the world for every catastrophe since he launched Operation Iraqi Freedom on 19 March 2003.
"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie. I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
~ H.L. MENCKEN
Born on 11 August 1945, I'm still waiting for someone to be held accountable for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the largest number of people killed in the fastest time, 150,000 and 90'000 apiece. I turned 70 this year and will probably never get to see it: an apology, at the very least, from the United States to Japan for that atrocity.
See:
THE BOMB DIDN’T BEAT JAPAN… STALIN DID
FOREIGN POLICY MAGAZINE, 05/30/2013
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice." ~ ALBERT EINSTEIN
How about GEORGE W. BUSH, INC., accepting responsibility for the Paris massacres of 7 Jan. and 13 Nov. 2015 and apologize to the French and to the world for every catastrophe since he launched Operation Iraqi Freedom on 19 March 2003.
"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie. I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
~ H.L. MENCKEN
13
It is no wonder that once these young men are turned into warriors and then allowed to return again and again to a battlefield with very few rules and even less oversight, they are incapable of proper judgement. The personality traits that would drive a young man to become one of these elite soldiers are the very traits that will eventually tip them over to the dark side if they are not closely monitored and guided. From this article it appears as though the Army is a whole lot better at this than the Navy. Maybe the ridiculous glorification or the Seals has something to do with it. Maybe the mass marketing surrounding the death of OBL may have contributed to the problem.
Regular psychological evaluation is sadly lacking.
Regular psychological evaluation is sadly lacking.
11
I would be angry, too. That is no excuse for losing it and not paying attention to the "rules" especially when one is in the military but yes, I would've been angry, too.
1
Not paying attention to the rules? You mean beating, tormenting and killing people who didn't do your wrong. I'm glad you think there's no excuse for that, just as someone living in the same world with you.
1
Warriors can not be policemen. Didn't we learn this in Nam? We can't even get our policemen to treat us with respect and dignity. Now we expect elite killing machines to police savages! The real villains are the military leaders that place our soldiers in unwinnable situations.
4
Excellent reporting of horrific abuses. The image of sling-shotting children in the face with hard candy, while not fatal, is just so stupidly and enormously cruel. The abuse of elders and the tormenting of civilians speaks more than whatever political objectives we are after.
Every injured person, every person treated unfairly or callous has a family who will be affected by what happened to their loved one. And so, due to this abuse, we are creating enmity among those who initially looked to us for help with trust.
Every injured person, every person treated unfairly or callous has a family who will be affected by what happened to their loved one. And so, due to this abuse, we are creating enmity among those who initially looked to us for help with trust.
88
Military training is designed to turn human beings into the functional equivalent of psychopaths. When higher-ranking officers are unwilling to maintain discipline over the result, this is what you get.
89
To me, it's much worse.
This psychopathic tendency is now pervasive, and seems to be infecting our society at large.
Look at us, look at what we are doing to each other, at what our governments condone, starting with the worldwide historic level of inequality.
My son is convinced that the .01%ters view the planet as a capital resource, one that will be eventually used up, consequently they will viciously protect their turf, and go after everyone elses.
The new modern definition of savagery.
This psychopathic tendency is now pervasive, and seems to be infecting our society at large.
Look at us, look at what we are doing to each other, at what our governments condone, starting with the worldwide historic level of inequality.
My son is convinced that the .01%ters view the planet as a capital resource, one that will be eventually used up, consequently they will viciously protect their turf, and go after everyone elses.
The new modern definition of savagery.
8
No, it's not. You obviously have *no* idea what you're talking about. I've served 23+ years in the Marines and Army, with tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. I can say with absolute authority that we are not trained to be 'psychopaths'. Any military member that is one (a so-called psychopath, or otherwise mentally deranged), was already one when they joined. We receive extensive training on treatment of detainees, rules for the use of force / escalation of force, etc. That doesn't guarantee that every soldier/sailor will follow such rules, but we *are* trained to follow rules. The best indication of how ignorant your comment is, is to consider the behavior of most of the soldiers involved, who from the sound of it consistently upheld the law and acquitted themselves quite honorably.
15
Just listen to the GOP candidates ranting their fear-based threats. 'Carpet bomb them!!', 'Stop all Muslims at the border!', 'Send all of them back where they came from!' "They're all rapists!" 'He was afraid of the black teen so he killed him.' "All is fair in love and war." Or, It seemed like a good idea at the time.
1
I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. We send less than 0.5% of our entire population to fight multiple wars over a 16-year span. We deploy the same people over and over into combat, some for over 4-years at a time. We have an unprecedented demand on a very small portion of our population. Suicides in the military are at record levels but there continues to be a very strong push to keep combat-experienced troops in the field. The strain of long and repeated exposures to combat takes a great physical, mental and psychological toll. When will it end?
139
I suspect this happens more often than not -- see Nick Turse's book - Chris Hedges: Kill Anything That Moves - Book Review - Truthdig
www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/kill_anything_that_moves_20130312 - 135k
www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/kill_anything_that_moves_20130312 - 135k
At least one per cent of the male US popu
1
Nooo! I am surprised at the fact that the chiefs have done nothing to prevent such acts from happening set aside punishing the misanthrops. Maybe they send them in such posts because otherwise these "soldiers" would vent their sadism against fellow Americans walking down main street.
Unbelievable, yet believable. And we wonder why we are so hated in the Middle East--shades of Viet Nam atrocities.
Whoever decided to send SEALS into an area like this where close ties to the locals was part of the overall strategy has to have his head examined. Lack of interpersonal training and an "anything goes" attitude that brings out the worst in men trained to destroy enemies like Osama Bin Laden have absolutely no place in war zones embedded in local communities. Allowing animal instincts to overcome the goals of the mission and sour entire populations on what's good about America is heinous.
And this cover-up is worse. Whatever happens based on this investigative report the Times has provided a great service to ordinary Americans who deserve to know how some elements of our military can run roughshod over locals they depend on. The following paragraph says it all:
"The captain’s mast procedure gives broad leeway to the presiding commander. “It really is like ‘The People’s Court’ with Judge Wapner or whatever, and the commander is the judge,” said Mr. Corn, the former Army lawyer. The hearing is closed, with no transcript provided, no impartial officer presiding, no prosecutor and no defense counsel."
Military crime and military injustice, all in the name of American exceptionalism.
Whoever decided to send SEALS into an area like this where close ties to the locals was part of the overall strategy has to have his head examined. Lack of interpersonal training and an "anything goes" attitude that brings out the worst in men trained to destroy enemies like Osama Bin Laden have absolutely no place in war zones embedded in local communities. Allowing animal instincts to overcome the goals of the mission and sour entire populations on what's good about America is heinous.
And this cover-up is worse. Whatever happens based on this investigative report the Times has provided a great service to ordinary Americans who deserve to know how some elements of our military can run roughshod over locals they depend on. The following paragraph says it all:
"The captain’s mast procedure gives broad leeway to the presiding commander. “It really is like ‘The People’s Court’ with Judge Wapner or whatever, and the commander is the judge,” said Mr. Corn, the former Army lawyer. The hearing is closed, with no transcript provided, no impartial officer presiding, no prosecutor and no defense counsel."
Military crime and military injustice, all in the name of American exceptionalism.
161
This is a remarkable remarkable piece of reporting, for which we should be very grateful.
And they want to courtmartial Bowe Bergdahl?
And they want to courtmartial Bowe Bergdahl?
285
It's not an 'either-or' - they *all* should be court-martialed!
2
I don't think there are any surprises here - except if there are consequences.
27
Obnoxious and Deadly Is US. Great reporting NYT on an atrocity eerily reminiscent of Abu Graib, or Freddie Gray's Baltimore.
32
Where's John McCain on this? The chairman of our armed services committee had plenty to say about Bergdahl's fate, but perhaps this doesn't share the political expediency that Bergdahl does.
224
Decline and fall of everything - even SEALs. Where will it end?
Once we were the moral beacon of the world and its envy. Today we are in debt, depression, despair, and despised around 9/10 of the globe.
Once we were the moral beacon of the world and its envy. Today we are in debt, depression, despair, and despised around 9/10 of the globe.
58
They hate us for our freedom? No: they hate us for torturing and murdering them.
296
You seem to have a problem with the order of events. 9/11 was perpetrated before the United States invaded Afghanistan and tortured anybody there.
5
And they hate us for asserting our imperial military presence; and they hate us for supporting ruthless dictators; and they hate our excessive consumerism, our using sex to sell everything; and they hate our arrogance. And...
1
So from the POV of the villagers, just who is the bad guy? Just how, exactly, do the Seals and their officers think they are going to ever achieve anything?
We are the invaders and scarcely the saviors. The US military learned absolutely nothing from 'Nam. We bombed 'em a plenty. We sent lots and lots of troops. There were essentially no rules or standards of conduct. We tortured, we executed, we took revenge and just how did that turn out?
All we have created with the Seals is a group of high testosterone thugs who enjoy doing whatever comes to mind. There are brave and decent Seals but the actions of their leaders, the lack of accountability, paints all with the same brush.
We are the invaders and scarcely the saviors. The US military learned absolutely nothing from 'Nam. We bombed 'em a plenty. We sent lots and lots of troops. There were essentially no rules or standards of conduct. We tortured, we executed, we took revenge and just how did that turn out?
All we have created with the Seals is a group of high testosterone thugs who enjoy doing whatever comes to mind. There are brave and decent Seals but the actions of their leaders, the lack of accountability, paints all with the same brush.
97
Not to worry, we are court martialing Bowe Bergdahl.
71
why shouldn't anyone be surprised? Remember Vietnam? Winning hearts and minds?
55
I do remember Vietnam. Within two weeks of arriving in-country I realized at least 50% of the civilians I encountered visibly demonstrated a dislike for us. How's that for winning hearts and minds. That mess continued, even after TET for six more years!!!
35
What the SEALs have done is despicable and reprehensible.
It's not hard to understand why the elders would not fend off the Taliban. We need to hold the accused accountable if we ever hope to eradicate the Taliban because I doubt the villagers will be so trusting should Westerners come back with what they believe to be empty promises.
It's not hard to understand why the elders would not fend off the Taliban. We need to hold the accused accountable if we ever hope to eradicate the Taliban because I doubt the villagers will be so trusting should Westerners come back with what they believe to be empty promises.
40
24 hour news coverage is great for civilians who have never fought in a war to tell you how to act or react. The sad thing this war could have been over a long time ago but politics won't let it. The Obama doctrine refuses to let the military conquer a defined enemy. Today's politicians gauge the geo-socio-economic climate and want to rebuild as they establish a fight with a known enemy? How do you do both?
How do we lose a war using the latest military technology against people who only have guns and ieds?
War is not fun and it is harder when politicians want to call the shots over the Generals and Admirals. Obama is no Commander in Chief.
Let the SEALs do their job. Why? Because you wouldn't or couldn't.
How do we lose a war using the latest military technology against people who only have guns and ieds?
War is not fun and it is harder when politicians want to call the shots over the Generals and Admirals. Obama is no Commander in Chief.
Let the SEALs do their job. Why? Because you wouldn't or couldn't.
11
We expect our hired killers to kill! That's what they were hired for!
2
A defined enemy.. in the middle-east, really? An I am a veteran.
64
Oh please. This mess began well before President Obama came onto the scene. We can thank the Soviets, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and myriad other war criminals for the situation in which we're now fully mired. We train fine young men and women to defend....what, exactly? And we turn them into monsters so that the war mongers, the majority of whom have never served a day in their lives, can enrich their bank accounts and expand their power and influence. No, I'm not a Navy SEAL, but my father crossed Normandy Beach, and he looked on these cowards with nothing but contempt. It is evil, through and through.
198
Sickening! Between this behaviour and drones, what's becoming of our military motives leadership?
44
What do you expect? A man beaten to death in Afghanistan. Is it the improvised manner you object to? A kill is justified when it is ordered, aha! See you through and through and through and through... and when do you stop this nonsense? Go home yankee.
13
When will we learn that by such behavior, we are fomenting terrorism, not combating it? When will we learn that by covering it up, we are demeaning our military, not supporting it? This has the same stink of the routine cover-ups of police abuse - magically cleared of all wrongdoing by an "internal investigation." According to the story, it took many people, not just the perpetrators, to cover this up, all the way up the ranks. That's what has to change.
408
In my more cynical moments, I might be inclined to argue that fomenting terrorism is precisely the point. Endless terrorism means an endless war on terror means endless profits for the war machine.
17
"When will we learn that by such behavior, we are fomenting terrorism, not combating it?"
That's the whole point. The more terror attacks, the better it is for the military. Total impunity, limitless cash, whatever the military desires. When you carry out acts GUARANTEED to increase terrorism, are you "fighting terrorism?" The very idea is absurd.
That's the whole point. The more terror attacks, the better it is for the military. Total impunity, limitless cash, whatever the military desires. When you carry out acts GUARANTEED to increase terrorism, are you "fighting terrorism?" The very idea is absurd.
5
You should consider the possibility that it may be that some atrocities are best not uncovered. It would be a sad day if such reporting impeded and imperiled our men carrying out our bloody mission. How easily we condon outright killing from "surges" to "drone missions" but are quick to condemn something messy and less surgical. We get queasy when faced with the up close and personal business of killing. Our combat soldiers don't have the luxury of condemnation from a comfortable armchair while reading the pages of the nytimes. When we commit to such "missions" we must be prepared to accept the consequences or step into the docket along with the men we send out to kill in our name.
1